Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard

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Gamergate controversy

My opinions are repeatedly called "fringe" in this discussion. This is not an accusation that should be slung around without sources backing it up. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:07, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like you ought to go to Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard.

Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules and policies are often references by acronyms and abbreviations that are either cryptic or, as here, look more alarming than they ought. The questions under discussion is whether -- and how -- your provocative Twitter post [1] can be used in the Gamergate Controversy article. As always, editors must weigh the source, the argument, the publication in which it appears, and its relationship to other reliable sources. One policy that's mentioned here is WP:RS and the question of self-published sources -- the encyclopedia typically considers material that appears in multiple mainstream sources as more reliable than self-published sources, though the latter can be used in some special circumstances. The other policy being discussed is WP:UNDUE -- whether the argument advanced by this source is representative of the consensus of reliable sources -- that is, whether it's "common knowledge" -- or is controversial though widely held, or whether neither is the case. The shorthand for the latter situation is WP:FRINGE and covers a host of things . Believing the earth is flat or that fluoridation is a communist conspiracy is WP:FRINGE, but so is the belief that Huckleberry Finn is a lousy book (pace Jane Smiley) or that the novels of Susan Sontag are overrated (Bull Durham) or any other exceptional opinion. Any striking opinion piece is likely to qualify as WP:FRINGE on publication -- the point of such pieces is to open eyes, after all. It could be worse: my classics training cries out to say that you're making an argument ex silentio, which would be a Bad Thing in Classics Quarterly but, after all, you're not writing for CQ. We can't point to dozens of articles in major newspapers and magazines that agree with the thesis you propound: that’s why you wrote this. The question before the encyclopedia is, which ideas are broadly agreed-upon by lots of sources and which, newly argued here, we must wait upon until a broader community has considered them. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:05, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that description of WP:FRINGE is overly expansive, but the point stands that "fringe" is being used as a term of art. Rhoark (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I gather this will not be addressed. Please correct me if I am wrong, or else I will take this feedback as a refusal. Auerbachkeller (talk) 19:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Auerbachkeller: That's a discussion about the validity of your article as a source. Those are the opinions of individual editors and nothing there rises to the level that would require action by administrators. Nor is that talk page seen by 99% of the people who read the article. So I guess the question here is what would you like us to do? §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It's true that policy about living persons does apply to article talk pages. At that talk page, it appears the pertinent discussion was primarily among User:Aquillion, User:DHeyward, and User:TheRedPenOfDoom. Are you seeking for any talk page comments to be deleted? You might have more success with such a request if you would first go to the noticeboard that I suggested above, i.e. Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard. Alternatively, if you would like us to change the word "fringe" to something like "non-mainstream" then please say if that would be satisfactory.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: That will not help. The use of WP:FRINGE in that context was incorrect, at least as far as Wikipedia considers the term. "Fringe" in general around here is alternative medicine and sasquatch and UFOs. "Fringe" as used in that discussion I assume means it's not mainstream or reliable or valid enough to include in the article. It's an incorrect application of the definition. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Frog. I pinged the three editors so they can explain how they meant the term. If they used the term incorrectly, perhaps they can agree to replace it with something else.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I've read through the rest of that horrible talk page and I think I understand what's going on. It seems certain sources have been called "fringe" in order to exclude them from the article. Which in my opinion is incorrect, but then that whole article is a true clusterf*ck anyway. Short of removing every comment that invoked WP:FRINGE I'm not sure how we would address this, and quite frankly as it is not clearly something that breaches WP:BLP I don't believe it is actionable. "Fringe" used to be limited to alternative theories about subjects that deviate greatly from the mainstream, but here it is being wielded as a weapon of sorts. Auerbachkeller, I would recommend bringing this to the Administrator's noticeboard where it will get more attention from experienced editors, and perhaps actioned in some way. On the other hand you can simply just ignore what random people on the internet say about you. But that's up to you. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Auerbach's self-published source is not fringe. It's basically a followup to his cited work in Salon. An opinion does not become "fringe" simply because it appears in a different source or form. If I say "the Earth is round," it doesn't become FRINGE simply because I wrote it in the notoriously unreliable source known as Wikpedia. In Auerbach's case it is not fringe and it's descrption as fringe is a BLP violation and should be corrected promptly as I originally did. We have no sources identifying his view as FRINGE. --DHeyward (talk) 20:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE is not about where an opinion or theory is published; it is about its relative prominence in the field. Auerbach's theories are, at least in my opinion, clearly not prominent -- almost no reliable sources agree with his interpretation of the situation, especially on this particular aspect -- so they fall under WP:FRINGE. Beyond that, as I said below, arguing that the mere assertion that a theory falls under WP:FRINGE is a BLP violation against the person who holds it would render us effectively unable to discuss the relative weight of sources. --Aquillion (talk) 20:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree this is not a BLP vio (because I agree we need to be able to discuss these issues), however I disagree with the application of the term "fringe" in that particular context. But that's neither here nor there. So long as BLP is being observed there's nothing for us to do. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE is, as people have explained above, a Wikipedia policy dealing with how to cover theories that are not widely-accepted; it is not meant to be derogatory, merely a comment that your opinion-pieces do not reflect the mainstream coverage of GamerGate among the rest of the press, and therefore shouldn't be given excessive weight. I stand by my opinion that your theories fall under that policy; they are directly at odds with the overwhelming majority of mainstream coverage. More mainstream outlets have, for instance, clearly taken the position that AAA publishers have condemned GamerGate. See eg. LA Times, NPR, PC Gamer, and The Washington Post; on the other hand, I'm not aware of any other reliable sources expressing your opinion that there is a secret well of AAA support. Beyond that, there are several other details of the opinions you express in your twitter that I feel are far out of mainstream coverage or scholarship on the subject, too -- I could provide more details if you want, but I think rehashing the subject's entire debate here isn't really necessary; it's enough to show that my position is at least reasonable, even if you disagree. Your opinion can still be mentioned, but I think it's clear that quoting your opinions on the controversy repeatedly throughout the article (as some people want to do) would be giving undue weight to a view that is not widely held. Now, all this is just my interpretation, and obviously some people disagree -- but that's why we have those talk page discussions in the first place. The important part is that saying that I feel your theories fall under WP:FRINGE is not a insult to you personally, and reading it that way would have chilling effect on our ability to discuss the relative weight of sources, which is a vital component of building a balanced article. --Aquillion (talk) 20:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Whether the views in question are "fringe" or not, that word is commonly defined as something that is marginal, additional, or secondary to some activity process or subject. It is certainly not a compliment, but it's not necessarily a personal insult either. I wish Wikipedia would reserve the word for Sasquatch-UFO type stuff, and use a milder word for more accepted small-minority views, but that's just me.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

To me, "fringe" would be someone saying that GG is a conspiracy by the lizard people (albeit one presented very professionally). This is not fringe, nor are most of the sources referred to as fringe in that discussion and the archives. Yet apparently at some point "fringe" became "counter to my views" and no one did anything to prevent it. Just another toxic side effect these articles have on the project. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I object to that; please remember to assume good faith. I can understand your position that WP:FRINGE should be reserved for academic subjects with more clearly-defined standards of publication, but I think that it is still appropriate to use it to describe theories and takes on current events that go against a near-universal consensus among the reporting of mainstream reliable sources, as I believe to be the case here. Either way, my usage is clearly based on my honest belief that Auerbach's views are far out of the mainstream (which I think I have established reasonably well, both here and, at further length, on the talk page for the main article, and which I think is reasonably clear when you compare his take on the controversy to almost any other mainstream source.) I've presented much more coherent arguments than just "counter to my views", and by asserting that that is my reasoning you are implying bad faith on my part. If you feel that reading or application of WP:FRINGE is off, that's fine; if you feel that I'm wrong about Auerbach being out of the mainstream, you're welcome to dispute that on the talk page for the article. But implying, as you have here, that reasons behind my arguments are purely based on disagreement with Auerbach rather than a legitimate belief that his take on this issue is far out of the mainstream (and, I suppose, a legitimate disagreement over how to apply WP:FRINGE) is inappropriate; people with different perspectives on a topic and its coverage can have different views on what opinions are mainstream, what is prominent and what is WP:FRINGE, and so on. Those disagreements are not automatically signs of bad faith. --Aquillion (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Aquillion: My comment was not directed at you, sorry if it seemed that way. It's just a general observation about what goes on in that talk page. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 22:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

So you are placing me under this rubric (from WP:FRINGE):

We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field. For example, fringe theories in science depart significantly from mainstream science and have little or no scientific support.[3] Other examples include conspiracy theories and esoteric claims about medicine.

• Creation science and Intelligent design – The overwhelming majority of scientists consider this to be pseudoscience and say that it should not be taught in elementary public education. However the very existence of this strong opinion, and vigorous discussion regarding it amongst groups such as scientists, scientific journals, educational institutions, political institutions, and courts of law give the idea itself more than adequate notability to have articles about it on Wikipedia.
• Holocaust denial – Claims of Holocaust deniers – that Adolf Hitler had no genocidal intent against the Jews of Europe, that no gas chambers were used for mass murder at camps such as Auschwitz, that the number of Jews killed by the Nazis was far less than six million – are rejected as false by an overwhelming majority of professional historians, although the Holocaust deniers themselves will still occasionally get some public notice and therefore notability.
• Moon landing conspiracy theories – Conspiracy theories which aim to show that the Moon landings were fake, while probably not held as true by very many people, have generated enough discussion in books, television programs, debunking statements from NASA, etc., that they deserve an article on Wikipedia.
• Paul is dead – a famous urban legend alleging that Paul McCartney of The Beatles died in 1966 and was replaced by a look-alike, sound-alike duplicate named William Campbell. Denied by all four Beatles (including McCartney, who is alive and well as of 2014), this conspiracy theory was fueled by "clues" found among The Beatles' many recordings. The rumour has been the topic of much sociological examination because its development, growth and rebuttal took place very publicly, owing to The Beatles' enormous popularity.

And I take it you are indeed refusing to rescind this claim that I fall under this rubric, nor back it up with sources. Good to know. Again, please correct me if I am wrong. I want to be clear on this point. Auerbachkeller (talk) 22:13, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

You're misreading that list; it is a list of examples of highly notable fringe theories (which therefore tends towards ones that are particularly bold in their claims.) I am not asserting that your theories fall under that category. But I am indeed asserting that they fall under the general definitions of a WP:FRINGE theory, one that "is not broadly supported by scholarship" or is "an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view" in that particular field. I continue to hold the opinion that the theories you advanced in the twitter post in question (which may not, of course, describe your entire thinking on the issue) fall under both the letter and the spirit of our WP:FRINGE guideline in that respect. I believe I have provided sources above showing where the specific claim under contention goes against mainstream coverage, and I feel that going over the sources for the article makes it clear that the overarching position you advance in that twitter post departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view of the controversy. Now, of course, not everyone would agree; but as I said above, I think that it is vital that editors be able to express their honest opinion on the weight due to a source and whether it is WP:FRINGE or, similarly, whether it falls under any number of other policies that an author might interpret as derogatory. Certainly many authors would be as unhappy as you are here if they knew we described their words as 'unreliable' or 'biased', but we must be free to make those assertions, even if people might legitimately disagree, in order to produce a usable encyclopedia. --Aquillion (talk) 22:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC

I think your interpretation is lacking. FRINGE is not about how much it is accepted in reliable sources, it's how much it's rejected. There are many physics theories involving gravitons and strings that are not widely accepted and are not fringe because there is very little opposition but also very little support. Comparatively, fringe theories have direct opposition in mainstream sources. "Flat earth" is widely refuted and is fringe due to its opposition. Auerbach by contrast has no mainstream opposition. That, by definition is not fringe. --DHeyward (talk) 03:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I've decided to hat the discussion because it was going nowhere except bad places. Does that resolve everything?Bosstopher (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Is the resolution that the claim that I am "fringe" as described above is not going to be rescinded? Auerbachkeller (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, I am not saying that you are fringe; my opinion is that the specific theories you advanced in that one particular Twitter post are WP:FRINGE. Fringe-ness, at least under our policy, applies to theories and ideas, not people. You are not fringe, but I feel that your opinion that there is a secret wellspring of support for GamerGate among AAA publishers, specifically, is a fringe theory under our policy. If you feel it's a BLP violation merely to describe a theory you articulated in this manner, I don't know what to say; I feel I've cited several reputable mainstream sources that contradict it, while the only source we have for it is your twitter post (which, even if you turned around and published it in a reputable publication, would still only be one opinion piece from a single person.) In a situation like that, I ultimately don't think it's reasonable to interpret criticism of a theory you've advanced as a BLP violation. --Aquillion (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I guess I have my answer. All right then. You say that I subscribe to a "theory" that your classification places on a par with Holocaust denial and creation science. You stand by that claim. Understood. Auerbachkeller (talk) 23:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

People may wish to see the items listed at Category:Fringe_theories.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

And with Godwin's Law validated, we are certainly now done with any productive discussion. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• I specifically said I didn't feel that that list of examples was a good comparison (since it's a list of fringe theories notable enough to support their own article, which naturally tends towards the incendiary and highly controversal.) I wouldn't compare the theories you advanced in your twitter to those things, no, but if you look at the Fringe Theories category above, they cover a much wider range. Beyond that, though, a theory stating "there is a secret hidden group of people who support this", in the face of reliable coverage of that same group opposing it? That is a fringe theory to me. Similarly (since it has gotten a bit more coverage), the theory that there is this group of indie journalists and vaguely-referenced "allies" who you believe are colluding to manipulate games journalism for the purpose of gaining social influence? That's... not what the overwhelming majority of mainstream sources say, so I'd describe it as pretty fringe; in fact, the article has many sources describing it as a conspiracy theory (though I suppose some of its advocates might describe it as a "conspiracy fact".) See NYmag, CS monitor, Forbes, washington post, Ars Technica and The Guardian, among others. These are sources I'd consider mainstream; who else is there of comparable stature who agrees with you on these things? --Aquillion (talk) 00:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• What is basically being said here is that it is being argued that Auerbach's piece is a minority view that would fall under WP:UNDUE of whether to include or not (weight of all opinions involved), but should not be called as a "fringe theory" as the term in art means a theory that goes against well-established facts, determined by scientific, medical, or legal evaluation. Flat Earth is a fringe theory because of the huge amount of proof the earth is round. But Auerbach's opinion piece on GG cannot be treated a fringe theory because there is no factual assessment of GG to say it is fringe. It is certainly the minority view where undue coverage and weight apply, but we cannot be applying WP:FRINGE to the Gamergate situation. --MASEM (t) 01:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I gave a heads up to the Fringe Noticeboard about this discussion.[2]Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• Masem, A fringe theory is not a theory that goes against well-established facts, it is a theory that doesn't (yet) have mainstream acceptance. Fringe theories sometimes turn about to be correct. For example, Germ theory and Continental drift were fringe theories in their day but are now widely accepted. - MrOllie (talk) 02:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• MrOllie that's nonsense. There are many physics theories involving string theory, gravitons, and multi-dimensional space that lack mainstream support. They also lack opposition. Fringe theories are defined by active opposition in mainstream sources, not by lack of mainstream coverage. There is quite a bit a difference between active opposition and a lack of coverage. Lack of coverage is not fringe. Einstein's predictions were not fringe even though it took decades to prove. Same with Hawking radiation and rotating black holes. If no one is willing to refute them, they are not fringe even if they are not widely accepted. That's fundamental scientific inquiry. --DHeyward (talk) 00:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Recapitulating the discussion (which is going nowhere, slowly): Some editors pointed out that Mr. Auerbach's Twitter essay is difficult to use in the encyclopedia because it is a self-published source. Others noted that its core argument, whole interesting, is not widely shared among reliable sources, and placing too much weight on it might be WP:UNDUE. Others point to WP:FRINGE -- which is related to WP:UNDUE, and which concerns a variety of ideas which are held -- sometimes strongly and persistently held -- by small groups but are not broadly accepted. (Another obvious example of a WP:FRINGE argument is the belief that Gamergate concerns ethics in journalism: it could perhaps be true, and Gamergate fans insist it is true, but right now the overwhelming majority of the best sources dismiss it.) MarkBernstein (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Guillermo Cabanellas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Guillermo Cabanellas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article does not seem to have encyclopaedic relevance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.97.70.45 (talk) 14:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome to nominate it for deletion if you wish (although I'd recommend creating an account first). However, you must do some homework before you do that, and my guess is the subject probably meets WP:PROF if nothing else. The onus is on the nominator to prove that the subject does not meet our inclusion guidelines. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I have nominated it for deletion, as it is just one long curriculum vitae. WP:PROF (if someone wishes to show it meets this, feel free) isn't an end-around the WP:GNG anyways. Tarc (talk) 19:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mark Chelgren

The following information was removed from the Mark Chelgren article with the comment Removed politically motivated material:

In 2015, Chelgren proposed a bill to the Iowa Legislature requiring all university professors to teach at least one course each semester, to terminate employment of professors receiving poor course evaluations, and to hold a student vote among the five professors with the worst course evaluations, in order to terminate the contract of the professor receiving the fewest votes. In an interview with the Chronicle of Higher Education regarding the bill, Chelgren asserted: "When I went to school, the professors who graded the hardest were among my favorite professors, not among my least favorites. The ones who seemed like they were just going through the motions and weren’t actually doing their jobs were the ones that were very frustrating. Instead of me working with that professor, you’d be pushed off to a TA or you’d simply deal with a professor who was so arrogant that you couldn’t actually ask questions without being demeaned in class. You talk about education in general and avoiding bullying issues, but a professor runs their classroom like they’re some kind of dictator."

What is the relevant policy to determine inclusion or exclusion of such information? Arguably, almost any information on a politician can be considered to be added or removed with political motivation. What Wikipedia policies apply here? Does this paragraph belong in the article or not? --Gerrit ^CUTEDH 16:36, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Gerritholl, I'd say Educrat132 is wrong to remove your entry. Yours was sourced reliably (except the one source linking to acadameblog). Further Educrat123 seems to be editing ONLY the Mark Chelgren article, making him likely an SPA, further he appears to be whitewashing the article, in | this edit he removed a fact added in by Sysop Northamerica10000, and made essentially the same edit | here as well , added puffery here , removed a reference | here , twice as well as here, where he removed a reference and added in puffery | here. If Educarat123 isn't Mark Chelgren, I'd wager it's some one with a strong COI or someone under his direction. I'm inclined to put it back and see him warned. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It made the news at NPR as well, so I'd say that's notable enough for inclusion, along with the Chronicle of Higher Ed source. Tarc (talk) 17:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

References

A bit of a head's up

I revisited the article for Deray McKesson tonight since he was mentioned on Fox News's Hannity show (my grandfather watches it religiously). It looks like he was the focus of a concentrated series of online attacks via Twitter recently, so there's a chance that this could spill over on to Wikipedia. So far I don't see where there's been anything to truly worry about, but I figured that having a few other eyes on the article would help. Also, if anyone wants to help flesh the article out that'd be fantastic - I've done stuff here and there but I'm not overly familiar with everything and I normally don't follow the news in general, so if anyone is more familiar with the Black Lives Matter movement then they might be a better asset to the article than I am. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Angela Rose

A few different editors (who may be related or SPs) have repeatedly added copyvio to and removed sourced content from Angela Rose. I have requested page protection, but I am not very familiar with which process is preferred for BLPs, so I am posting here as well. I have reverted this copyvio a few times and do not want to run into accusations of 3RR. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:26, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Page has been protected. I made a series of edits to also cleanup the page and remove unsourced content. Meatsgains (talk) 02:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Naomi Wolf

• Naomi Wolf (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi, it appears that no editor is keeping watch over this BLP, but in the past few days it has been attacked by IPs. I reverted this yesterday, but there is a persistent effort by this new IP to add "titillating" and otherwise slanderous material to the page. I am going to undo their edits now, but I am asking for page protection or for someone to help. This is my first experience with vandalism of a BLP, so I am not sure if I'm responding appropriately. It seem obvious that the following is not appropriate. Should I ask at ANI for this IP to be blocked? Thanks in advance, petrarchan47คุก 21:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• "She later fell in love with the movie producer Avram Ludwig, whom The New York Times said possesses "the skill to deliver orgasms that make the leaves outside her upstate home glow in Wizard of Oz Technicolor."
• see changes
• tendentious editing

• I have just removed the IP's edits. petrarchan47คุก 21:10, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Protected for two weeks. Those edits were a bit much. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Thank you so much. petrarchan47คุก 21:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Added to watchlist. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 12:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Mohammad_Yaqoobi

This article was listed as 2014 for copy edit and I reviewed. I found that this article did not meet the requirements for notability or independent sources for biography of Living Persons. I highlighted it for deletion and notified authors. My edits were reverted without explanation. Isthisuseful (talk) 15:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit summaries explained the reason for the revert. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

See also User talk:Miniapolis#Proposed deletion of Mohammad Yaqoobi. Pinging Miniapolis to notify that this revert is being discussed here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Poorly sourced material on someone who just died a few days ago?

Hi all! I have an odd question for you: there is an editor repeatedly adding poorly sourced info to wikipedia about an actor who just recently died. I've removed it a few times and spoken with the editor on his talk page but, he just put the info back again with the same poor source that doesn't say any of the info he's adding to wikipedia (other than the fact that the actor is dead): no dates for his tenure on the show, no confirmation of the characters he played. Is this allowed or can I continue to remove it? What should be done? Thanks in advance.Cebr1979 (talk) 12:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

@Cebr1979: Please provide a link so other editors can have a look at the page and take whatever action may be necessary. Thanks. Eagleash (talk) 12:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

He actually just added a better source so the point is now moot. Thanks anyhow, @Eagleash:.Cebr1979 (talk) 12:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Julian Priestley

In the Wikipedia article on Julian Priestley on the right side there is a reference to his post as Secretary General of the European Parliament 1997 - 2007. The presidents during this time (of the European Parliament of which he is the SecGen) are referred to as well. Unfortunately, the names given are those of the Presidents of the European Commission. Could somebody set this right, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.41.42.3 (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Antonin Scalia

4th paragraph, last sentence should be deleted. It states that on June 26, 2015 (today) Antonin Scalia was arrested for attempting to burn down the Supreme Court Building. This is obviously non-sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.92.148.18 (talk) 16:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Already reverted by another IP. Monty₈₄₅ 16:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Lea Michele

User:Attmcb is insisting on including material in the Lea Michele article regarding an alleged sale of her home in Los Angeles. ([3])

The user claims, in an edit summary, that the photo in the cited realty site page "is the same picture" as the picture in the Daily Mail article cited as source #1 in the article ([4]). While these two pictures are similar, they are not identically the same photo (they could be the same house seen from two different angles, or they could be two separate houses in the same housing tract which happen to look very much alike). Nothing on the realty site page identifies Lea Michele, or anyone else, as the current or former owner. In my opinion, saying these are "the same picture", and on that basis concluding that this is/was Lea Michele's house, violates WP:SYNTH.

Further, the realty site page gives the address of the house in question — thus arguably providing Lea Michele's recent-past residence address. Even if such information is accurate, it is inappropriate per WP:BLPPRIVACY. On that basis, I reverted Attmcb's original inclusion of this new material, suppressed it per the oversight policy, and notified the user ([5]); however, he/she has restored the challenged information.

What do others think is appropriate here? — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 19:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• he information has already been deleted as suppressed, but I agree it doesn't belong. —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Penderyn (whisky)

Controversial assertions regarding Penderyn director Nigel Vernon Short are not supported by the link provided, nor are they germane to the subject of this entry.

This section has been multiply-reverted by user Ibadibam, who appears to have a wish to defame the person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ontarioboy (talk • contribs) 19:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

It is difficult to assess the reliability of source from an archive link - but regardless of whether it is reliably sourced or not, a discussion regarding what one of the directors did in relation to an unrelated business seems off-topic to me. 20:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Fairly clear that this is an WP:UNDUE WP:COATRACK. Information has already been removed by AndyTheGrump. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 01:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Richard C. Hoagland

Could we have a review of the article? It appears to me that the subject is openly being trashed both in the lede and body of the article, in an obviously unencyclopedic way. I don't pretend to understand Hoagland's theories, but he was a science advisor/commentator, appearing with Walter Cronkite at CBS for three years, an inconvenient fact which is omitted entirely from the lede, while violations of core WP:BLP policy abound, as I see it. The phrase "never held a degree" is one example of slant in the text of the article, but the lede is particularly nasty: I earlier today attempted to remove the second and third paragraphs, but was reverted. The obvious hostile slant is an embarrassment to the encyclopedia. Reads like an attempt, line by line, to discredit, shame, and belittle the subject, who according to the Talk page, has complained about his Wikipedia article. No matter what one believes about this person, the encyclopedia has to do a much better job than this. Clear violations of WP:UNDUE, even if sourced properly. Jusdafax 23:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The page has already had at least one very extensive review. I invite interested parties to this discussion to inspect the 7 May 2014 version. You will then appreciate how extensive the review immediately after that date was. User:Jusdafax seems to want a rosier version of this man's curriculum vitae but, absent any endorsement of his "work" in the public record, I would say it's going to be near-impossible to source such a version adequately. Stu (talk) 23:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

What I want is not a "rosier version" but an encyclopedic article that does not come off like a hatchet job. Again, I request a review of the article from an uninvolved party. Even a cursory look reveals BLP violations and WP:UNDUE emphasis. Jusdafax 06:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

One of your recent edits there removed the second and third paragraphs from the lead. But if he isn't notable for bizarre "scientific" claims and conspiracy theories, what is he notable for? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I removed the paragraphs because in my view they require a fundamental rewrite and need to be discussed. And as I say above, not to include any mention of Hoagland's years of television appearances on CBS with Walter Cronkite makes the lede unbalanced. I do see a bit of improvement, after my removal, but as it stands the lede is unencyclopedic, the version prior to my deletion extremely so. Jusdafax 07:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'd support inclusion of appearance with Cronkite. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I came here because the regular editors at the article appear to have the attitude that Stu, above, has. Rather than add material in now, I'll continue here. Now how do we justify the third paragraph in the lede? It's out and out trashing to have Oberg's and Greenberg's opinions of Hoagland there to conclude the lede. Oberg, according to his article, is a hostile "skeptic." Again, is this an encyclopedia or a bashing forum? Jusdafax 08:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Jusdafax, I think your description of James Oberg as a "hostile skeptic" is quite unfair and borders on a BLP violation itself. Let me first disclose that I corresponded extensively with Oberg about space policy, going back about 35 years. He served with NASA for 22 years, he is one of the foremost U.S. experts on the Soviet space program, and now the Russian space program. He is highly respected and widely considered to be a person of great integrity. My familiarity with Hoagland also goes back to the 1970s. His professional reputation is poor. Of course, the article should not be a hit job, but it also should not sugarcoat Hoagland. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

So, you have a personal relationship with Oberg, Cullen. Ok. Now, this is from his Wikipedia article, which I assume you have read. "He is a Fellow of the skeptical organization CSICOP and a consultant to its magazine Skeptical Inquirer " . My description of Oberg, as I said originally, comes from his prominent membership in organizations that use the term in their titles. So, I am "quite unfair" for, well, for what? For pointing out facts you don't like? Jusdafax 02:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Oberg's participation in skepticism and criticism of charlatans is a minor part of a long and distinguished career in the technology of space exploration. Hoaglund is notable only for activism advancing bizarre conspiracy theories. One of them is indisputably reliable, and the other is the opposite. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

...looking still further via Google reveals an interesting dispute between Greenberg and Hoagland regarding the origins of the theory that there is an ocean of liquid water under the crust of Europa, and that no less a figure than Arthur C. Clarke acknowledged Hoagland's work for Clarke's inspiration for the plot point in Clarke's "2010." Greenberg's Wikipedia article, by the way, is loaded with unreferenced claims, and arguably should be tagged for speedy deletion. Is this a worthy citation for the lede? I'd say no, and suggest deleting the third paragraph at once. Jusdafax 09:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

If someone writes that there were ancient civilizations on the moon etc. and that the American government is conspiring to hide this information, I think "conspiracy theorist" and "pseudoscientist" are not unfair. There are other sources for these descriptions apart from Greenberg. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

If User:Jusdafax wishes to add that Hoagland was a consultant to CBS TV News 43 years ago, I assume he or she has a reliable source for that. Obviously, to be encyclopedic it isn't enough that Hoagland claims this. Stu (talk) 14:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Took me about 5 seconds to find this. Also this, a book discussing conspiracy theories (but not a conspiracy theory pushing one). Also this. There are thousands of hits, there are bound to be many more, and one only has to be careful how many of the websites have recycled press releases from Hoagland or his website. Black Kite (talk) 14:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

All right, good enough. Just be sure, please, not to go along with Hoagland's claim that he was in some sense a personal assistant to Cronkite. The sources I've seen say he was one of four consultants to the CBS Apollo coverage, along with Lindy Davis, Charles Friedlander and G. Harry Stine. Stu (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with how the article treats the subject, or anything that would violate BLP or NPOV. When someone is extremely notable for promoting fringe conspiracy theories, WP:FRINGE instructs us to make it clear how those ideas differ from the mainstream. I think NPOV is often confused with "neutrality" and "let's make both sides of the issue sound respectable and let the reader decide". When it's warranted, Wikipedia is not neutral. And this is certainly such a case. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Well we are making a bit of progress, thanks to Nomo and Black Kite. We also have some interesting comments from the regulars at the article. Stu has admitted he hasn't bothered to look for sourcing, which is interesting judging from his previous statements, and Louie doesn't "see anything wrong." Noted. I'd like some additional commentary from others uninvolved in this article, if possible. I say again, before I came along and took issue with it via deletion and bringing it here, that the article was one of the worst examples of bias in a BLP that I have seen in over six years of editing Wikipedia. Jusdafax 01:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
• Now now, let's not get snippy. I never wrote that I couldn't be bothered to look for sources. To the contrary, I wrote what my sources told me about Hoagland's status at CBS. However, one source is a blog, and another is a video recording of a press conference by Hoagland himself. Neither would pass muster here, I think. Stu (talk) 13:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
• I ask again for uninvolved editors to review the BLP and give it a neutral assessment. With few exceptions, the commenters here can't really be called neutral, in my view. Jusdafax 15:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Jorge Horacio Brito

Hello! I was looking at the biography of Jorge Horacio Brito and in my opinion it looks biased or not neutral and damages the reputation of that living person. I think it would be good if other users can take a look at it, because it seems that it has corruption allegations that have not been brought to a trial yet. At least, this is what I understand from the article, which is mainly sourced with articles from the media. It is known that media provides information about cases of corruption, but they not always finally probed. In fact, I realized that there was a conflict with this article, with a couple of users trying to make the biography more neutral by deleting the references of corruption Special:Diff/664463936/667671889. Is it right to have an article that has such harmful information here? I mean, maybe those charges are true, but should Wikipedia be more cautious in allowing this kind of information? I hope someone can give further details about this because apart from this article, I saw many articles about people, most of them relevant, that not only gives biographical information but also describes charges that still are on trial. Many thanks!--Tuquoquefili (talk) 01:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, I have stated before I would be willing to work more on the page and reach a compromise. In fact I will take another look soon. But any admins stopping by should take note of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sherlock4000/Archive .

This may be another attempt by this user to make disruptive edits by abusing accounts. I will note that I had attempted compromises several times before on Brito's page with Sherlock only to have him immediately and flippantly undo any compromise and accuse me and other editors of all sorts of conspiracies. DaltonCastle (talk) 03:44, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me DaltonCastle, I believe that another users should give their opinion too, because you've been part of the discussion and the one who have made the editions that in my opinion looka biased and could damage the reputation of the guy. Don't you think that Wikipedia should avoid this kind of information until is fully verified. I mean, verified on a trial. Thanks for your reply and your explanations!--Tuquoquefili (talk) 11:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Im not telling anyone they cant give an opinion. Im just saying its a little suspicious that a user was blocked for disruptive edits and abuse of multiple accounts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sherlock4000/Archive) on Brito's page. And now a new user has arisen, making the same arguments as this now-blocked editor. And I cannot stress enough how I had attempted a compromise that was only reverted again and again. This is all covered in reliable sources, and is notable. I write about political corruption a lot of the time. I will review the page and try to reach a compromise, but I hope we dont resort to disruptive reverts and allegations as seen before. DaltonCastle (talk) 18:56, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I didn't know that the users have been blocked and I read many articles about Argentinean corruption and I have to say that they have loads of information and have plenty of sources but still, is Wikipedia the place to describe this? What will happen if all the people involved there are not condemned? This kind of articles are damaging their reputation. Maybe those people are likely to be guilty, but I believe we have to be cautious here and keep the articles more neutral. I found the biography of Brito but then I saw a couple of articles that have the same problem that Brito's biography.--Tuquoquefili (talk) 11:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

When its covered in reliable sources and highly notable, then it can be in the page. When reliable news sources report on this kind of thing its not unfounded. DaltonCastle (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

But the article mentions Wikileaks. Is that a reliable source? In the other hand, I believe that the fact that a content is sourced it doesn't mean that it should be used in Wikipedia, specially if it damages the reputation of a person. The media sometimes have their own interests and involve people in cases of corruption that don't reach a trial. I'm not saying that those people are not guilty, but I think that Wikipedia should be more cautious with this kind of information. Again, I hope more users give their opinion about this. --Tuquoquefili (talk) 11:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Julian Gardner (poker player)

There is currently a discussion on the talk page of Julian Gardner's article regarding whether a certain piece of information about his playing habits should be included. There have been some concerns expressed about whether all points of view are being equally included in the discussion, so I would appreciate it if any interested editors would take a look at the discussion and weigh in with their thoughts to help us reach consensus. The article is also currently the subject of a deletion discussion if any editors are interested in adding to that discussion as well. Thanks! ~ Rob^Talk 04:50, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

• FYI, this is in the sentence that was deleted. It was unsourced and the concern is over it being derogatory. —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if youre all still discussing this. Simplest solution is just to keep it out. This is in no way vital to the article. Its unsourced. And some editors are concerned that it may be a slight at Gardner's character (of which there is no apparent reliable source). If there were a source backing it this would be a different discussion. DaltonCastle (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Amit_Khanna

This article is poorly sourced and not written from a NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.22.72 (talk • contribs)

I had a look over this Article, but do not see anything obviously violating WP:BLP. Suggest that concerned editors raise their issues on that Article's Talk page. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 12:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

A WP:PEACOCK statement removed, but agree with Ryk72: no obvious BLP violations. Minor issues are better discussed at the talkpage. GermanJoe (talk) 13:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

The biography for Dan Puric is libellous.

The page about Dan Puric on english wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Puric is written by Mycomp, a user who hates him and the page is written in bad faith. The article is poorly documented and I think intentionally misleading.

In the first paragraph he wrote about this romanian actor that he is a "Christian Orthodox taliban" quoting a source from a newspaper article that doesn't exists anymore.

Dan Puric is an actor, essayist, author and Romanian theater director and indeed he believe in Christian values, bun he is not fundamentalist in any way.

The romanian page here: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Puric, is written as a list at the moment but one can see how manny books he wrote and the prises he won, and the english article sais nothing of this, just some quots from one controversed book of the author, published in 2008, where he expressed his disslike for the western countries that left Romania to the comunism after world warr II and allso express his opinion on hommosexuality and that homosexuals should not adopt cildren, but even this oppinions are not expressed with hate or fundamentalism, as a mater of fact the author always speaks about love.

Dan Puric never speaks or writes with hate, like this wikipedia article is written, and I think the article should be completed or completely removed for the moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tazmandev (talk • contribs) 12:12, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done - Removed sections of lede & "controversies" section, per WP:BLP; Watchlisted. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 12:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've revision-deleted the objectionable word as well. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 05:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Bill Hudson

Bill Hudson is the father of Oliver and Kate Hudson. Just because, as a public figure, he has disowned them in the press, does not warrant the elimination of their names from the Wikipedia-page. This is a page based in supportable facts and not emotional outbursts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poboxbrian (talk • contribs) 20:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, we should keep an eye on this article. Factual information needs to remain. One cannot delete biological children. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Affair and blackmail section

I came across the Susanne Klatten article by chance in my COI work and noticed that it has a dedicated section about blackmail threats she received. It looked undue to me, especially since a lot of the content is about the arrest and indictment of the perpetrator, rather than anything she did herself. My potential COI would take too long to explain - just thought I would flag it here as something worth taking a look at. CorporateM (Talk) 23:30, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• Hmm... on one hand I can see your point - it is a bit undue. However on the other hand, it does have quite a bit of coverage and resulted in an arrest. I'd probably recommend re-writing the section to be less salacious but keep some mention of this in the article since it apparently did get a bit of press. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Maybe merge it into personal life? There's already a bit about her attempted kidnapping and we could probably boil this down to a few sentences. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• CorporateM, I've pared this down to a few sentences and merged it into the personal life section. This should be far more neutral now. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• I also noted that apparently he was brought to court over multiple similar schemes, not just what he did to Klatten, so I tried to work that in as well. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks @Tokyogirl79:. Yah, I figured either that, or the criminal himself may warrant an article, where his crimes can be covered in greater depth. I didn't look too much into it; just thought I'd flag it. I made a similar post about a company page here, but we don't have a BLPN equivalent for company pages and so I'm not sure that was actually an ideal place to put it. If anyone has a minute to look at it, it's the Internet Brands page, which has a large poorly-sourced Controversies section. CorporateM (Talk) 15:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Buddy Murphy

After some editing issues that have been noted as not disruptive on both sides after being reported as an edit war, it was recommended that this issue be brought here for scrutiny. The issue concerns the use of the this link to prove that Buddy Murphy started his career at the wrestling promotion concerned and to disprove that the WWE Performance Center has not trained him at all. BLP prohibits contentious claims through poor sourcing, and I consider this to be a controversial claim that needs independent verification. It is common AFAIK for a promotion to at best stretch the truth in order to attract new wrestlers to train and work for their promotion. This is the case here. Yet two IP's and GaryColemanFan insist without proof that the source is reliable. The page is presently fully protected to my edit, and I maintain that even without a source that the Performance Centre is correct - based in the assertion that all wrestlers who have developmental deals with WWE and work on the NXT roster (Murphy is one of these wrestlers as I believe is shown on the page and sourced) are training there. As an additional point of proof re controversial claims, I pointed out another controversial claim here which is related in that the same three wrestlers are named and a similar promotion line is used. It isn't exactly the same, but it doesn't need to be - it's still stretching the truth and promotional. The edit war started as I used the right under BLP to remove contentious claims without question (I think that's the wording) and they refused to listen. Some help is needed here and I hope this isn't too long as these reports require. Curse of Fenric (talk) 00:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• 1 If the WWE Performance Centre is added to Buddy Murphy then by the logic Curse of Fenric is using it needs to be added to all NXT performers, past and present.
• 2 The 2nd claim CoF is trying to use doesn't mention where the current (as of the link) MCW trainer was at the time he trained the three named individuals, just that he was involved in their training, so if anything strengthens the referenced edit. 194.28.124.53 (talk) 01:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The above proves my point. This IP is not paying attention to the real issue - promotions making claims based in promoting their product and not verifiable fact. For the record, if the training done at the Performance Centre is less substantive than elsewhere (as would be the case with those who've trained at Ring of Honor like Owens et al) then it's not appropriate to add it. It is with Buddy. It's there with Emma as well, and I'm sure others. Curse of Fenric (talk) 01:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It's a sourced edit, and the only thing you've shown to say it's not a fact is WP:OR ("I know he didn't in real life") [6]. Nowhere have you shown that the PCW site is unreliable, the MCW site (your link) makes no mention of where Carlo Cannon trained them, so it doesn't make the sourced edit wrong. If the Manchester United site said that Nicky Butt was trained by Eric Harrison at Manchester United, then the Newcastle United F.C. just said he was trained by Eric Harrison and makes no mention of Manchester United, does that then make mean that the Manchester United site is unreliable? Of course it doesn't, which is the thing you're trying to claim with your MCW link in regards to the sourced edit. 194.28.124.53 (talk) 02:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh dear. Now trying to compare an elite level soccer club with a grass roots wrestling promotion to cover for a continuation of missing the point. As far as the onus is concerned, BLP says; The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material. This is not me. As I said at the start, there must be proof that the PCW website is reliable for BLP claims. Or get an independent source. Curse of Fenric (talk) 04:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I have provided evidence with a reference, something you've failed to do everytime you put the Performance Centre in, and you've failed to prove why the refernce isn't acceptable. Just saying it isn't doesn't cut it, else anyone could say "oh, I think site X is not acceptable" and any article with that in will need it removing. WWE.com is just as "kayfabe" as the PCW, so I suggest you start removing it from any and all WWE wrestlers, past and present. 194.28.124.53 (talk) 04:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

WWE is under severe mainstream media scrutiny making them draw a strong line between kayfabe and real. Local promotions are under no such scrutiny. I don't have to prove the source is unreliable. You have to prove it's reliable and you are yet to do so preferring to attack my editing. All promotions withOUT mainstream scrutiny are subject to suspicion. This doesn't apply to WWE, TNA, Ring of Honor, New Japan and others who have the scrutiny. No promotion is Australia has it. Training in pro wrestling is highly controversial in Australia with a history of controversial claims. It is very much an ego driven business and without controls in place claims such as this are inherently controversial. It's why Australia hasn't had a major nation wide fed since 1978. Curse of Fenric (talk) 05:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

A few things here, CoF: (1) BLP is about contentious (i.e. potentially controversial) material. Whether a little-known wrestler was trained here or there is hardly controversial. Invoking BLP to justify edit warring about a trivial detail is an abuse of the policy. (2) You have cited your personal knowledge (WP:OR) to justify your preferred version, essentially asserting WP:OWNership of the article (compounded with your ALL CAPS hidden note ordering other editors not to change your preferred version). (3) The promotion is a reliable source, as the writers are clearly experts in professional wrestling (that is, they are employed as writers in this specific field). (4) Replacing a reference with an unreferenced statement isn't supported by BLP, even if the policy is relevant. (5) Continuing the edit war after being reported to WP:AN3 is bad form, at best. GaryColemanFan (talk) 04:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

(1) It is controversial and I would hardly call the reigning NXT tag team champion "little-known".

(2) I am not relying on OR. That at best is simply my back up to my core point. It is not my preferred version. My preferred version (and everyone else's) would be both with a reliable independent source to confirm the first. That's why I put the note not to remove the Performance Centre. He trains there. We all know it.

(3) The promotion is NOT a reliable source and writers are NOT experts! Sheesh you are giving them WAY too much room to spout lies if they want and get away with it. That goes to show that as I said above to the IP, the onus is on you to prove it is reliable. Speculation like that is not proof.

(4) As I have said before, contentious sources can be removed without question. That is in BLP and that is what I am doing. The reference is not allowed because it needs independent back up.

(5) Darkwind has stated that everyone in his view is acting in good faith so your accusation there is out of line. He recommended that the debate be brought here and that is what I have done. Curse of Fenric (talk) 05:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• My suggestion to bring the discussion here was intended to have someone outside of the dispute assist in providing a viewpoint about the reliability of the source being used. Since nobody but the participants in the dispute have contributed as of this point, I don't particularly see this discussion as likely to go anywhere useful.

That being said, GaryColemanFan (t c), I do want to clear up a few misconceptions you appear to have about WP:BLP. First of all, contentious material means material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged. That has happened in this case, therefore, the location where he trained is, by definiton, contentious or controversial, however you want to phrase it. See WP:BLPSOURCES.

In regard to your point #3, the only source I saw being used to support that he was trained by PCW Academy was PCW's own website -- which is a crystal clear violation of WP:BLPSPS: "Never use self-published sources – including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets – as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject." (emphasis mine) In the context of the BLP policy, it is not a reliable source. The last sentence of WP:BLPSOURCES also applies: "When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources."

My personal opinion is, if you cannot find a reliable, third-party source to support where he was trained as a professional wrestler, then leave the field blank as required by BLP. —Darkwind (talk) 02:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I disagree that these are misconceptions. While the source has been challenged, the spirit of the BLP policy is to protect living individuals. Whether people think a little-known (yes, I said it again) minor league professional wrestler trained here or there has no bearing on the individual in question. The material is not controversial, potentially libelous, or even important. With that said, one needs to ask whether the letter of the law (yes, even though it is trivial and unlikely to be challenged, someone has challenged it) or the spirit of the law should be the primary consideration.

Further, your dismissal of the PCW website as a self-published source is concerning. This is not a source written by someone creating a website and claiming to be an author. This is a source written by someone who was hired to report on behalf of a company, and whose work goes through an editorial process before being published. Therefore, this writer reporting on a wrestler is clearly not a self published source. Therefore, in the context of the BLP policy, it is an acceptable source. To draw a parallel, the list of Nobel Peace Prize winners uses the Nobel Foundation as its source. The Nobel Foundation obviously wouldn't be considered a self-published source, even though it is writing about its own organization. Likewise, on a much less impressive level, a professional wrestling company writing about its own organization is not a self-published source. If I was to start writing about PCW, I would be a self-published source, as I am not an established expert in the field.

Of much greater concern is the fact that CoF has engaged in an edit war, and even continued to the edit war after being informed that he had been reported to 3RR, based on his insistence that his personal knowledge/original research trumps a published source and that he has the right to dictate what is allowed in the article in a clear violation of Wikipedia's ownership policy.

Thank you for your reply. However, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of BLP and your misinterpretation of SPS. GaryColemanFan (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• While Blogspot is clearly not a reliable source, this interview suggests that Murphy did initially train at PCW, and was then trained by Carlo Cannon. Claims of Murphy being trained by Cannon are backed up by this site which was originally posted by CoF. I would recommend that we simply list Murphy as being trained by Carlo Cannon, since there seems to be clear evidence for that, and cite the MCW page as a reference. The current listing of "WWE Performance Center" is clearly unsuitable as Murphy/Adams was wrestling for over 5 years before the Performance Center was opened, and the fact that we have sourced content which is being removed simply because someone is claiming that "the source is wrong" is frankly absurd. 94.174.101.121 (talk) 22:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not absurd at all. What is absurd is that you're accepting promotional material designed to attract wrestlers as kosher. That is the core reason why the application of BLP as I said at the start and was confirmed by Darkwind means that you have to get away from both the PCW and the MCW websites. They are suspect as is every other website of little promotions seeking attention and the money of youngsters wanting to be a professional wrestler. Hence the need for a reliable third party independent source - such as the one I just requested to be added to the article to back the WWE Performance Centre (even though I didn't need to because there is no controversy over it unlike this PCW stuff). That at least is reliably sourced. The blank in the previous years is caused by the simple fact that no one can come up with a source that fulfills the requirements of BLP. And I know this - a reliable source will get it right and it will say that he did not start training with PCW. PCW was merely the promotion he did his first show with. Curse of Fenric (talk) 11:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Non-factual smear on Zeitgeist the film page

On the page Zeitgeist (film series)‎, two non-factual statements by reviewers are cherry-picked to say the film producer, a living person, is anti-Semitic. Neither reviewer alleges to be stating a fact or basing the allegation on factual material, but that the films "borrow" ideas from the statements of a list of named antisemites. It is guilt by association. The reviewers have no information that the producer everheard of those people or read their works. Neither the films nor the producer have said anything that could be taken to be antisemitic, and the ADL has never named the films or the producer. I have deleted the mentions and the changes were reverted within a few hours.[7]. I have reverted the page a second time just now in keeping with WP:BLP, but third editor promises to recommend a block on whichever editor loses this argument (which I consider a counterproductive threat, as both of us are operating in good faith). Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 17:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

We're not making a judgement on the truthfulness by including such passages, just noting that reliable sources have made the claims. One of the sources in question is titled Loughner, “Zeitgeist - The Movie,” and Right-Wing Antisemitic Conspiracism, so it's kinda hard to gloss that over. Tarc (talk) 17:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think repeating malicious gossip on WP is OK, even if sourced to a professional gossiper. And I don't see support for that position in WP:BLP. If that is what the policy means, though, it should just come out and say so. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 17:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

On second thought, the sources are not really the quality I initially thought, and there seems to be little else out there outside of the blogosphere making similar assertions about the film series. Tarc (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

NB I have created the sub-heading below (and copy-pasted one comment above) in order to seperate 'outside' and 'involved' editors comments. This is done to allow new editors to leave their comments above, should they wish.Pincrete (talk) 12:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Comments from 'involved' editors

If our sources say something we can put that into an article. Otherwise it would be censoring the article to your opinion. Malicious gossip? No, just a citation that is reliable giving some information. There is no censorship on Wikipedia. Earl King Jr. (talk) 17:53, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The real problem with the Zeigeist article isn't so much that it includes statements of opinion to the effect that the films are 'right wing' or 'antisemitic', but that it excludes any contrary opinion - sources have been systematically cherry-picked to the extent that (for example) a passing comment in a review of another movie entirely was cited for a characterisation as "conspiracy crap". Clearly unacceptable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Firstly a correction, both the source and the criticism section of the article state that the film is "steeped in …… covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories" NOT that the producer is 'anti-Semitic'. Secondly I am the editor who reverted (though not the one accused above of making a threat on 'talk', and someone who has largely tried to stay out of the in-fighting on that page). Thirdly user Grammar/Sfarney has brought this here without meaningful discussion on talk and indeed threatened to do so on the first instance that he raised the issue: [8].

Clarification of the BLP implications here would be helpful.Pincrete (talk) 18:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump, with respect, that isn't a subject for this noticeboard.Pincrete (talk) 18:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

In as much as WP:BLP is clearly relevant when discussing works so clearly identified with a single individual, non-adherence to WP:NPOV is very much an issue for this noticeboard. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

For the same reason (identified with a single individual), calling the films antisemitic is effectually calling the producer antisemitic. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 18:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

'steeped in … … covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories' isn't the same as 'anti-Semetic', I'm not trying to minimise the accusation, merely trying to discourage over-statement of it.Pincrete (talk) 19:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

There has been plenty meaningful discussion of these two quotes in days past. It came to nothing. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 18:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Sfarney|Grammar, the link you offer is discussion about Edward Mullins, (which is background I agree), but it has nothing to do with 'anti-Semitism', which is, ostensibly the reason for this BLP Noticeboard action.Pincrete (talk) 19:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, Goldberg mentions Mullins to strengthen and elongate her accusations of antisemitism. It is of the same device -- antisemitism by association, which consists of having made comparable statements about super-rich international bankers -- but in the case of Joseph, having nothing to do with Jews. It is a cheap shot with very nasty implications, and it does not deserve to be featured on the Encyclopedia. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 19:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

On second thought, the sources are not really the quality I initially thought, and there seems to be little else out there outside of the blogosphere making similar assertions about the film series. Tarc (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Not all such are negative, nor contain similar assertions. See this. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 19:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Sfarney|Grammar, how does one article that DOESN"T mention 'anti-Semitism', invalidate one (of several) that DO. By all means try to include text (as opinion - just as this is being used) that gives a positive opinion of the film, that is completely different from trying to remove text that doesn't.Pincrete (talk) 20:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Positive and negative do not capture the discussion. The issue is Goldberg's statement that because the film says super-rich international bankers have too much political power and consume disproportionate quantities of the world's resources, the film (and thus the producer) is antisemitic. That is a logical leap of bizarre proportions, and it becomes a statement more about the reviewer than the reviewed. As such, it might belong on Goldberg's page rather than the target of her wrath. We might find comparably reliable sources calling people slut, nazi, pervert, stanist, chavanist pig, rake, fraud, theif, or any of hundreds of other defamatory epithets -- and antisemitic is among the most extreme with the most severe professional consequences. Do we just repeat such statements because they are colorful? To demonstrate the case, I challenge you to find such words among the WP articles on past presidents, though any number of such epithets could be found in the printed media. In ordinary society, repeating such colorful accusations is called "gossip," and the more colorful is termed "juicy gossip." But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a gossip megaphone. The currency of an encyclopedia is fact, not slander. We know from Goldberg's own statement that the films (and the producer) contain not a particle of real antisemitism -- not a molecule. She tells us the logical leaps she is taking to get to her slander. Hence, we know those epithets are not fact and not even valid opinion. They are on the same fact level with, "You look like the SOB I had a fight with last night." Yet by cherry-picking out that statements with three repetitions of word antisemitism in the article, the stink is hammered home to the reader in disingenuous association. Bottom line: We don't megaphone slanderous denunciations through Wikipedia on the slim excuse that someone else said them first. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a gossip column. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 22:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Example: James Forsyth of the Washington Post wrote that many Europeans consider it obvious that Bush is a moron.[9] Regardless of RS (eminent political commentator published in a blue ribbon new source), the comment does not belong on Wikipedia's George W. Bush page. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 00:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Even if it were asserted, in Wikipedia's voice, that the film were antisemitic, it wouldn't mean the director is antisemitic. And, technically. The Producers draws on "antisemitic conspiracy theories". Does anyone want to complain that Mel Brooks is antisemitic? Issues about the film do not necessarily reflect the producer-director. There are three (or more) questionable inferences required to get from the statements we quoted to the implication that Peter is antisemitic. We should expect the readers to see that. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Technically, The Producers is a fictional satirical comedy, and the comparison to Zeitgeist does not apply. If The Producers were a documentary, we would have a different discussion. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 01:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

On the other hand, statements by Grammar'sLittleHelper, including the title of this section, do constitute a WP:BLP violation against Ms. Goldberg, who I presume is still living, or at least recently dead. WP:BLP doesn't apply as strongly to discussion pages as it does to articles, but it does still apply. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, that escalated quickly. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 01:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I think there are two issues here, and it doesn't help anyone to muddle them. The first is whether ideas in the film are similar to those of (named), extreme-right individuals ('Mullins' discussion). I'm neutral as to whether that connection should be made, very possibly not. The second issue is whether to 'edit out' of a review the opinion that the film is 'steeped in … covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories'. An editor is asserting that it is somehow 'non-factual' or 'malicious gossip' for her to think so.Pincrete (talk) 20:57, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk page discussion herePincrete (talk) 22:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Statements by Grammar'sLittleHelper, including the title of this section, do constitute a WP:BLP violation against Ms. Goldberg. I believe that Grammer is totally wrong in his assessment or opinion of how Wikipedia works. Goldberg is notable. Other notable people have asserted the same information that Grammer does not like. Grammer is accusing Goldberg and other authors of reliable sources of framing or an attacking of Peter Joseph. That is not so. If information can be found that says otherwise then that information if well sourced can be added. It appears that Grammer wants to strip information out of the article because he thinks the information is about the author of the information being this or that unfair. He really should not accuse and attack Goldberg and his own opinion as being correct. Saying Goldberg has smeared Joseph is way off the wall and that talk page is way out of control, confusing and there are many supporters of the Zeitgeist movement that are attempting to present ideas according to Zeitgeist instead of according to outside from Zeitgeist sources. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:36, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The comment above is a whole lot of personal attack in violation of WP:PA. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 07:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Grammer please do not strike through my comments. I reverted that. If I made a personal attack which I don't think I did, I will apologize, but striking through another persons comments seems a bit much. Apparently emotions are intense about editing this article but lets deescalate. Content is the problem I think and possibly you so not agree with what I was saying. I am saying that Goldberg is describing the movie and its sources and that same description can be found in multiple sources beyond here. We have to go by our cited information and not an editors feelings/opinions about things. Earl King Jr. (talk) 08:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Just confine your remarks to the content and don't try to paint me as a Zeitgeist groupie when I argue for a decent encyclopedia page. Goldberg is not describing the movie. She is speculating that Joseph "borrowed" the theory about international bankers from a list of antisemites that she names. That is not a description. Then she calls Joseph's theory "covert antisemitism" -- like wow. Where did that come from? -- if you complain about super-rich politically powerful bankers you must be a covert antisemite??? And yet that is the path of her thinking as told in her column. Chip Berlet follows the same twisted path. Their attack on Joseph has nothing to do with the movies or with Joseph as real person. But when we cherry-pick those wild-eyed speculations out of the gossip columns and frame them in the Wikipedia as "reliable sources," brother, we are violating WP:BPL. Wikipedia is not a gossip megaphone, but it could become one if we include nonsense like that. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Chip Berlet, has credibility as studying far-right organisations and their ideas, Goldberg has not and is mainly quoting Berlet. For that reason the linking to those organisations (if used), would probably be better done 'directly', not through Goldberg. Sfarney|Grammar, I've no idea what 'Joseph as real person' is like.Pincrete (talk) 10:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no "linking" between Joseph and any organization named by Berlet. It's just slander. And the Socialist Standard does not agree it's "right wing." If the great Chip Berlet can't get that right, how good is he sniffing out "antisemitism" in a film that never mentions Jews outside the religious context. These people have the reliability of witch doctors predicting rain. So much for the "R" part of RS. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 15:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with Sfarney's WP:BLP argument, but I think this discussion illustrates the source may have other problems; primary source FRINGE given undue weight. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 16:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Sfarney|Grammar, IF you think 'Socialist Standard' also has a valid opinion on the political ideas in the film, (though hitherto you have been very disparaging about it). Propose some text for inclusion in the 'response' section of the article. The fact that one reviewer doessn't mention 'right wing ideas' does not 'disprove' one (of several) that DO. Pincrete (talk) 16:43, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

This is not the topic talk page. There is one issue here and one only: The baseless charge of antisemitism against Peter Joseph that has no foundation in logic or fact. Chip Berlet is free to throw around that slander in any publication that is willing to host it. But the Wikipedia has specific WP:BLP policies about living persons that we must follow. And casting baseless charges of antisemitism does not conform with that policy. Mindlessly parroting Berlet and/or his puppets when we know the charge is baseless also does not conform with that policy. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 17:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Your interpretation of policy - to me - is indisinguishable from 'I alone know what is true', (so I don't need sources to support anything I say). Pincrete (talk) 18:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Bear with me a moment. A year ago I had never heard of Peter Joseph or Zeitgeist. Sometime in the past year I saw part of the first reel and lost patience. I still have no knowledge of Joseph, but (1) I hold as a sacred trust that it is wrong to slander strangers who may in fact be of good will, and (2) I want WP to be a good encyclopedia. I have no dogs in this fight other than that. Chip Berlet gives us all the evidence he has that Joseph is an antisemite, and he confesses through his own erroneous reasoning that his accusation is essentially baseless: Joseph says some of the same things X said, so Joseph must have got his ideas from X (ILLOGICAL ALERT #1); since X was an antisemite, Joseph must be an antisemite (ILLOGICAL ALERT #2). That reasoning is so terrible, Aristotle must be groaning in his grave. I also do not know Berlet from a bar of soap, but I would never ask an intellect of that caliber to investigate anything. And we have no business repeating it. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 18:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It is properly sourced as Chip Berlet's opinion. Think it is still a weight issue. David Duke's page doesn't shrink from identifying him as an antisemite, but I suppose there are many more sources for that assertion. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no logical connection between David Duke and Peter Joseph. Nowhere. Nohow. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Just an example that referencing a source that refers to individual's work as antisemitic or right-wing isn't necessarily a BLP issue. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 20:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Convince me that I could write and publish an antisemitic book and not be labeled an antisemite. In most cases, nothing else is required to make the list. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 21:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

No, thank you. References cite critic's statements that conspiracy theories are antisemitic and statements are accurately attributed to those expressing that view. It may be a primary source FRINGE view that may be given UNDUE WEIGHT, but it doesn't appear to be a BLP issue. Wiki has plenty of articles with critics describing people/things/ideas as racist, sexist, ect. As appropriately attributed commentary it ought to be fine. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 22:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Now that is REALLY cherry picking. There is no support for the theory that a person accused of writing an antisemitic book or producing an antisemitic documentary could escape being labeled antisemitic. The consequence is inevitable. And now you suggest we should bury a living person with the slander, a person who never mentioned the word Jew or any synonym. That would be truly irresponsible and not in keeping with WP policy. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 23:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Sfarney|Grammar, stating the obvious, if you knowingly wrote a book that was anti-Semetic, you would BE anti-Semetic. I think you mean ACCUSED of being XYZ, which of course does not mean you ARE XYZ. Readers have brains to understand the difference, (and if they don't we are all wasting our time).Pincrete (talk) 09:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Now you've got it! There is no way to accuse a book|video|documentary of being antisemitic without directly accusing the author|producer|writer of being antisemitic. These nice arguments that "we are labeling only the video and not the man" are utterly empty. The statements in the video are non-fiction, non-satirical, non-comedy, alleged to be fact statements, made by the face of Peter Joseph. And if Wikipedia says those are antisemitic statements, Wikipedia is accusing living person Joseph of antisemitism. WP:BLP Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 21:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Your interpretation of policy Sfarney is indistinguishable from 'I alone know what is true so I don't need sources to support anything I say. That is a problem because now we have tied up the talk page editing tendentiously over your theory of the Zeitgeist being wronged. You say you do not know about the movies really or the group but want to defend them. If the group's movies use a platform of classic antisemitic theory which conjures up aspects of the Elders of Zion and Alex Jones with some other Banking conspiracy inferences it is legit for use to give the sources like this [10] or [11] or this [12] and on and on. It is considered a conspiracy theory movie which draws its information from classic conspiracy theory like this example [13]. We are just reporting that. It is an overwhelming amount of citations that say that. Your personal opinion unless you are notable on this subject can not be used no matter how much you personally are thinking it is not fair or 'right' to give these sources. Calling one of these people smearing is not a good argument. There is a belief in a conspiracy on Wikipedia to defame or exclude Zeitgeist [14] with the Zeitgeist group descending on the Wikipedia article claiming conspiracy about marginalizing them. I would say there is no conspiracy and the average editor does not really care just edits though there may be some personal interest, that has to be transcended for good editing. Goldberg is just writing her thoughts about the movie as a journalist. Accusations of smearing are not appropriate. We should not be attacking or saying they have wrong or sinister motives in your claim to defend Wikipedia from them as your logic. Your interpretation of policy is not Wikipedia policy. I suggest we close this now. The sources for the information are legit. No one said Peter Joseph is lying. He just made a movie according to our sources which uses sources that clearly plug into those classic conspiracy arguments. Then the movie is described as propaganda, agitprop, conspiracy, etc. by our reliable sources, overwhelmingly so. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:26, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Try hard to thread your remarks, King; you can do it. (1) I have never stated Zeitgest was harmed; This is the Living Persons page and Peter Joseph is a living person who is wronged by these baseless allegations parroted on WP. (2) Let us not use verbal magic. Joseph's films do not mention the Jews or the Protocols of Zion or the Blood Libel or anything tied to the Jews except Jesus. (3) If Americans cannot discuss banking misconduct without being charged with antisemitism, the US Congress, many prosecutors, the FDIC, the FHA, and every newspaper are in a whole heap of trouble. Antisemitism in this case is just a smear. (4) I have not accused those journalists of sinister motives. I have accused them of badly flawed reasoning. (5) So far, only two sources accuse Joseph of antisemitism because of this vague similarity between statements of misconduct, and one of those sources quotes the other. No one here is overwhelmed by those two sources. (6) Some of your text is WP:PA/ad hominem that does not require response. (7) There has been no reliable discussion of Peter Joseph's sources beyond speculation. Allegations of his sources by the sources cited have used weasel language that indicates they don't care what his real sources are. The charges against Joseph are without basis and are slanderous. WP is not a megaphone for slander. I would like WP to be a respectable encyclopedia. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 01:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The descriptions are about the film, and its ideas, films are not living persons and cannot be slandered (by the way, it's libel when written). Leni Riefenstahl's 1930 films are often described as embracing Nazi aesthetics, but whether she was an active ideologue, an opportunistic 'fellow traveller' or an innocent artist remains an open question. Should we have also suppressed that debate while she was alive?Pincrete (talk) 09:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know anything about that issue, but your description already draws two great differences. (1) Nobody questions whether Nazi aesthetics were the aesthetics of the Nazis. In contrast, Berlet and Goldberg make the leap of faith that anyone who criticizes the undue political influence of global banks is criticizing Jews. (2) The question here is not "suppressing debate." The question here is whether Wikipedia should be retailing the slander that Joseph's film is antisemitic because it criticizes bankers. There was no debate until Laval and I brought it up -- it was asserted as fact in the article. And as stated above, the film is an intimate creation of Joseph, with Joseph authoring, producing, directing, and narrating the film with his face on the screen. It is impossible to assert the film is "antisemitic" without labeling Joseph. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 15:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so are there any credible sources that say Peter Joseph was just walking along minding his own business when all those connections just happened to fall in his lap? Accusing one or more of our sources of slander is serious business. Are you planning on taking them to court? Your post above works as a Facebook blog entry but not here. Please stop trying to denigrate legit sources by saying they are slandering the subject. Are you making a legal threat? Are you a lawyer? Are you notable beyond being a Wikipedia editor and have published something that takes apart these aspects? Reliable sources are just that, reliable. Personal diatribes saying our sources are slandering someone is a mistake. A free press says what it wants and the Zeitgeist movement also says they are being slandered? Has anyone written about it that would make a source or is it just your personal feeling? Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

After many warnings to King about his conduct, and now this. I have reluctantly referred the matter to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Earl_King_Jr. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 07:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Rick Ross (consultant)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rick_Ross_%28consultant%29

I have tried to have edits made to correct the selective representation of my criminal record 1974-1983.

I think that the criminal record must be done accurately and not selectively. However, nothing seems to be going on regarding the suggested edit. The account of my criminal record remains selective and incomplete. I suggest the following;

In 1974 at the age of 21, Ross was arrested for the attempted burglary of a vacant model home, but later pleaded guilty to misdemeanor trespassing. He was sentenced to probation. The next year Ross was convicted for the felony conspiracy to commit grand theft.[1] He again plead guilty, made full restitution and received probation, which was ended early for good conduct in 1979. Arizona Superior Court later dismissed all charges, expunged Ross' criminal record and restored his civil rights in 1983.[2]

The word "expunged" can be linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expungement_in_the_United_States

Rick Alan Ross173.72.57.223 (talk) 17:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello:

Does anyone check this page?

There is a serious problem at my bio, which is being used as a propaganda platform to attack me and my work.

Rick Alan Ross173.72.57.223 (talk) 12:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

ross money mitchell

There is no such boxer. All the references are fake

Ross Money Mitchell — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.208.175.65 (talk) 21:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Bill_Cosby#RfC:_Should_the_allegations_of_sexual_assault_be_mentioned_in_the_lede.3F

I think more experienced eyes are needed at Talk:Bill_Cosby#RfC:_Should_the_allegations_of_sexual_assault_be_mentioned_in_the_lede.3F as there is an effort to loose put a "Rapist" necktie around Bill Cosby who has only been accused of such things. There are no cases, no trial, no evidence, etc. Just innuendo.

I also think the section of the article bring up all these accusations need to be trimmed back but I'm not sure what makes sense here? More opinions and ideas might be helpful. Georgeivs vid (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Jeffrey Dale

His name is spelled wrong and his birth place is incorrect

Its Jeffrey Dale

Born in Winnfield, Louisiana

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisatalbott (talk • contribs) 05:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be about our article Jeffery Dale, former safety for the San Diego Chargers. The spelling of his name is debatable, LA Times does have Jeffrey[15][16], but NFL.com says Jeffery[17] as does the USA Today College Football Encyclopedia[18]. I'm going to list both, just in case. As to the birth place, NFL.com clearly says Pinevill, and I can't see Winnfield anywhee ... except that second LA Times article that says he went to high school in Winnfield. So I am going to restore Pineville, and add Winnfield HS. --GRuban (talk) 15:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Rosin_Jolly

Controversy[edit source | edit] Rosin is criticized by public for getting close to Rahul Easwar in the reality show Malayalee House. They responded by saying that the issue is hyped up. [4]

this is unsourced item , i have removed it many times but some one is posting it again & again there is a TV show and nothing happned inside like controversy between two persons , — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sibipaul (talk • contribs) 05:29, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done - removed controversy section per WP:BLP; reference deadlinks; quick search of source does not easily find same information.

Leon Brittan

This article may need more eyes at the moment. An editor, now blocked for legal threats (who may not go quietly) was also faking references. The latest material he had added to the article was not only redundant (covered at length in another section) but contained material not remotely supported by the references he added. Note the subject died 6 months ago. Voceditenore (talk) 13:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like the page's been watchlisted. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Callum James Greens

This page Callum James Greens appears to be factually incorrect and written by its own subject. The person / page does not fulfil the criteria for inclusion on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Endofcity (talk • contribs) 14:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I have proposed this for deletion. None of the "facts" about this person are verifiable and it comprehensively fails to pass any of the criteria at Wikipedia:Notability (people). All sources are either by the subject himself or referenced to publicity blurbs in a blog. I can find nothing better. Voceditenore (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Definitely fails WP:MUSIC and General Notability. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Tom Lister, Jr.

Tom Lister, Jr. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello , I have a situation i want to get fix , but i need help i was send here since they didnt know what to do. Tommy Lister Jr is born from Compton, California . los angeles memorial hospital has his birth certificate on file and i also have his birth certificate since he send it to me . i contacted the source u got on his wikipedia page the encyclopedia of arkansas due to the lack of information they took down his article on there page . i emailed them Mr.lister's birth certificate i have . would u be able to help me please ? thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohgeejay (talk • contribs) 20:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Maybe WP:OTRS? GaryColemanFan (talk) 01:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Vincent Niclo

Probably incorrect date of birth - compare the French version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.42.165.23 (talk) 16:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Luis Posada Carriles

• Luis Posada Carriles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

A concern was raised through OTRS that this article is too one-sided and negative towards the subject, which I'd tend to agree with, however my concern is more with the lede. Is it appropriate to describe the subject flat out as a "terrorist" and a CIA agent rather than a more neutral "Cuban exile militant" or "activist" or something like that? I don't necessarily question his anti-Castro activities or his association with the CIA and the fact that he has been indeed called a terrorist is sourced, however as in many other cases this is a loaded term depending on who uses it. I feel the lede could use some more neutral wording. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 17:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, scholarly source material uniformly describes him as responsible for terrorist activities, if not actually a terrorist. The fact that the plane he was responsible for blowing up was from Castroist Cuba doesn't change the fact that was convicted for blowing it up. I would be amenable to something like "was responsible for...." or "is considered a terrorist in...." but I'm not overly concerned with the current version, either. "Exile militant" is not terrible, but "activist" refers to a completely different sort of action; besides, I see no support in the sources for "activist." Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: I agree "activist" is inappropriate, yes. The problem is that "terrorist" on the other hand is in Wikipedia's voice. It would be better if he was described as something like "Cuban exile militant" and then the terrorist part was worded as you say, "considered by..." and so on. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:31, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not necessarily arguing for this, but the BBC has called him an "anti-Communist activist" (as well as a "militant)[19] and he has been called an "Anti-Castro activist" by CNN[20] and The Washington Post.[21] Highlighting the issue here, the lede of The Washington Post article states, "He is, depending upon whom you talk to, either a terrorist or a patriot." That could even be used in the article. My own view is that "anti-Castro activist and militant" is likely the most neutral way to describe him in the lede. There is precedent in similar articles to leave out "terrorist" and describe what the person has done. Although he is called a "CIA agent" by various sources, that term is also not very descriptive. Various individuals directly work for the CIA direct representing the goals of the United States, whereas others who might have overlapping goals might be paid by the CIA or be CIA assets. I also have concerns about the use of primary source documents which appear to be cherry-picked. - Location (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

This discussion was had on the article's Talk page already: see here. I agree with the editors who went around this subject already: If the FBI and CIA and the Cuban government agree he is a terrorist, that is indeed a broad consensus. I understand your reluctance to use the loaded word "terrorist," but in this case it is warranted. Moreover, we should be careful about applying this word only to Arabs or enemies of the United States. If you blow up an airliner and kill 73 people, you are a terrorist by any definition. Chisme (talk) 01:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there was some discussion of this eight years ago, but it does not appear to me that there was a clear consensus on how it was to be handled. At least one of those in favor of using "terrorist" was later blocked for using sock accounts. I have no objections to the use of "terrorist" in conjunction with attribution, and Osama bin Laden serves as a prominent example of how this should be handled. See Osama bin Laden#Beliefs and ideology which states: "His viewpoints and methods of achieving them had led to him being designated as a terrorist by scholars,[55][56] journalists from The New York Times,[57][58] the BBC,[59] and Qatari news station Al Jazeera,[60] analysts such as Peter Bergen,[61] Michael Scheuer,[62] Marc Sageman,[63] and Bruce Hoffman.[64][65] He was indicted on terrorism charges by law enforcement agencies in Madrid, New York City, and Tripoli.[66]" Similar to this subject, bin Laden was labeled a terrorist by CIA officials (e.g. George Tenet). What is terrorism is a matter of perspective exemplified by those who are convinced the 9/11 attacks were justified and that the downing of Iran Air Flight 655 was a nefarious action on the part of the US. - Location (talk) 03:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This is one of those situations where we are far better off relying on scholarly source material (of which there is no shortage) than American newspapers. We wouldn't use the Cuban or venezuelan press without attribution; we certainly should not use the US media in Wikipedia's voice, either. It is very easy to perpetuate systemic bias here, because Americans are heavily represented among both editors and media source material, and simply because he was anti-Castro, more likely to look (relatively) favorably upon him. Scholarly sources do tend to refer to him as terrorist; in addition, agencies of both relevant governments do, and he was convicted of blowing up an airliner by a third government. Location, which primary documents are you referring to? Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

The only source that I see that could be considered scholarly is the National Security Archive, whose objective is "to check rising government secrecy", and all their work on this subject seems to have been compiled by Peter Kornbluh. As above, I have no objections to citing them, or even agencies of the US government, in a manner consistent with what is noted in bin Laden's article. Regarding primary documents, for example, the opening sentence uses this document to state that Posada was a terrorist and CIA agent when the document only states: "We have determined that this agency had a close relationship with one person whose name has been mentioned in conjunction with the bombing." - Location (talk) 03:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

List of Big Brother 17 HouseGuests (U.S.)

I've raised this at the talk page of List of Big Brother 17 HouseGuests (U.S.), but so far no one seems interested in participating, so I'd like to get a wider input and see where we're at. For those unfamiliar, Big Brother is a reality tv series; sometimes the houseguests are notable for something before coming in, e.g. [Vanessa Rousso]] this year, but with the exceptino of the eventual winner, these people rarely become notable enough for standalone articles. An IP editor has added dates of birth several times which I have removed, erring on the cautious side of WP:BLPPRIVACY. DOBs do not appear on the official BB show page, nor in reliable sources that I have been able to find, so I am concerned that this info is being culled from the subject's social media and the like.

Articles on past seasons (List of Big Brother 16 HouseGuests (U.S.), List of Big Brother 15 HouseGuests (U.S.) have this problem that I'd like to see fixed as well, unless this approach to BLPPRIVACY is seen as too conservative? Tarc (talk) 18:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Edward Snowden

We have a BLP edit war currently going on at Edward Snowden. Here is the offending edit. (The contention in the edit summary that there is consensus there is no BLP violation is patently false.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused - can you make clear what your reasons are for removing that content that is sourced to the Sunday Times and the BBC? --ℕ ℱ 22:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems fine to me too. Backed up by three sources that are commonly considered reliable. Eagleash (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

You have to dig a little deeper. The Sunday Times story isn't reliable as it's been roundly and completely slammed by reliable sources - see the discussion I just started at Edward Snowden#Sunday Times story. Beyond that, this is an extraordinary and completely unsubstantiated accusation of wrongdoing by a living person. Numerous reliable sources have rebutted the claim, so even if the Sunday Times story is reliable, repeating the accusation without any response is grossly non-neutral. (The BBC source merely reports on what the Sunday Times wrote. And even the BBC published a rebuttal story.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to me quite as clear cut as you are presenting it. The Sunday Times and BBC reported that unnamed govt sources advised them spies had to be moved as a result of them being compromised by information that may have been obtained by China and Russia. It is clear that the govt sources did not provide evidence of that to the newspaper - wouldn't you be surprised if they did? Any possible evidence would be likely highly classified. There was then criticism of the story by people saying look they didn't have evidence. Nobody has disputed that the government did say that though, I'm not clear on how that is a rebuttal. How could anyone outside the government know whether spies had to be moved? The BBC story you mention as a rebuttal just reports one person's criticism of the story. --ℕ ℱ 22:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The journalist admitted to CNN that all he did was talk to some guy at Downing Street and then report what the guy said, anonymously. That's an unsubstantiated accusation of an extraordinary claim. It also utterly fails all journalistic standards, both in the national security realm and out. The BBC story doesn't just report on "one person's" criticism. It reports statements by a professional and highly respected journalist with first-hand knowledge of the facts -- likely one of the most reliable witnesses there could be, and one who is bound by basics of journalistic ethics (unlike some unknown person at Downing Street, not even an intelligence officer). --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I would agree that since two reliable sources have denounced the story, it would be better to wait until media has sorted it out. For now, WaPo offers a good reason to reject the addition: "Asked...whether the Sunday Times had any evidence to substantiate these claims, Harper responded, “No. We picked up on the story a while back from an extremely well-placed source in the home office”. petrarchan47คุก 06:14, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

[ Mike Hoare]

Reuters dispatch listed Mike Hoare,his wife and two daughters as murdered circa 1990.He has not been since this time by any person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Statemachine 01 (talk • contribs) 01:02, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

luke saville

Luke saville was born in Berri, Australia, and the info on his page from before 28 June 2015, Someone has instead some saudi arabia related nonsense about his birth place, favourite football club and names of his siblings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.175.61.111 (talk) 12:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)