Wikipedia:Featured article candidates: Difference between revisions
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Revision as of 19:44, 7 April 2010
- Page too long and unwieldy? Try adding nominations viewer to your scripts page.
Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:
It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as Done and Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the Table of Contents – This page: Purge cache |
Featured article candidates (FAC) Today's featured article (TFA):
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Nominations
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by Dabomb87 21:32, 8 April 2010 [1].
Horses in World War I
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it addresses the subject completely and fully and meets the quality standards of a Featured Article. mynameinc (t|c) 19:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Has the primary contributor, Dana boomer, been consulted about this nomination? I don't see that you have any history in editing the article, and FAC doesn't typically take kind to drive-by noms. María (habla conmigo) 20:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I was thinking the same thing. I know Dana has plans to bring this article here eventually, but think she will do so when she's ready. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There was a previous Peer Review, and all the points have been met, the best I can tell. I will withdraw, if that's better. Also, I thought the community would perceive 'drive-by noms' better, since it was by a third party who thinks it's ready, rather than a contributor. mynameinc (t|c) 20:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Read the large instruction box at the top of WP:FAC. – iridescent 20:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) Nope, see the top of the page: "Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the FAC process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to a nomination." A withdrawal would be advisable, unless Dana feels the article is up to snuff. María (habla conmigo) 20:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:32, 27 April 2010 [2].
Singin' and Swingin' and Gettin' Merry Like Christmas
I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that it fulfills all the criteria for an FA. It has gone through a successful GAC and has been peer reviewed by a competent editor, User:Finetooth. This nomination is part of my on-going attempt at improving all Maya Angelou-related articles. I would appreciate any and all feedback to improve this article. My only concern is with the images; I've struggled with finding appropriate ones to add and would like additional input. Thanks. --Christine (talk) 15:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: This is the first time I've seen so many literary-related articles listed simultaneously at FAC (five!); too cool. :) I'm not familiar with this particular work, although I've read I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings several times. Overall, the article appears to be in pretty good shape, although I'm concerned about the prose in places. The images do not bother me, and in fact I would advise to not push it too much; the images should be integrally related to the subject, and not simply filler. More importantly, I'm afraid a copy-edit or two may be in order. Here are some specific comments for improvement:
- Thanks, Maria; that is cool. It certainly wasn't planned; I've been intending to nominate this article for several weeks, but wanted to wait until I got other things out of the way first and could devote time to another FAC. Thanks for bringing in User:Scartol for a much-needed ce of my weak prose. --Christine (talk) 22:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The lead is somewhat wordy and repetitive. The word "autobiography" is used four times in the first paragraph, but this part in particular is troublesome: "...had expanded her life story into a third autobiography. The autobiography, which includes..."
- ...covers most of Angelou's twenties... -- it is already stated in a previous sentence that the book "chronicles her early twenties (1949–1955)".
- Scholar Dolly McPherson has called this book... -- is the present perfect tense correct here? I'm not a fan of its usage when it comes to critical thought, and an almost exact sentence follows it: "Critic Lyman B. Hagen has called the book..."
- Would you mind explaining what you mean by this? Are you not a fan of the present perfect tense when it comes to critical thought, or saying that these critics "called" the book something? --Christine (talk) 04:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The book has roots... which take up 40 percent of the book -- repetition.
- McPherson calls the book... -- McPherson's opinion here is stated in present tense, but the "Critical reception" uses almost all past tense; if this is meant to summarize the crit. recep. per WP:LEAD, I believe it should be consistent.
- The publication of Singin' and Swingin' and Gettin' Merry Like Christmas in 1976 marked the first time a well-known African American woman writer had expanded her life story into a third autobiography. Aside from naming the book, this sentence appears in its entirely in the lead section. Could it be paraphrased a bit more to cut down on the repetition? "When published in 1976, Singin', etc., became the first time..." or something similar?
- stated that Angelou's autobiographies set a precedent not only for other black women writers, but for the genre of autobiography as a whole. Through the writing of her autobiographies... -- I know it's difficult to vary such an important, descriptive term, but something needs to be done here.
- Between Scartol and I, the issues with the Background section seems to be addressed. --Christine (talk) 04:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hagen responds to this criticism by stating that... -- Not only is this in the present tense, while the rest of the paragraph is in past, but I had to scroll up to remind myself who Hagen is. Could be be reintroduced here, since the lead is truly separate from the rest of the article?
- I always learn something new in FAC. Didn't know that the lead is supposed to be separate. Fixed, as is the tense problems in this section. --Christine (talk) 03:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Critic Mary Jane Lupton insists that the title of this autobiography... -- This paragraph marks another change in tense, this time entirely to present tense. Consistency?
- In the plot, is there a reason why Maya is referred to as such, and not "Marguerite", before it is noted that she changes her name? In Clyde/Guy's case, he is referred to as Clyde until it is said he changes his name, after which the summary refers to him as "Guy".
- Referring to the main character as "Maya" was an editorial decision, to be honest. She's called all kinds of names in this book, and "Maya" is one of them. The difference between her name change and Guy's is that up until his announcement, he was called "Clyde", and some people were already calling her Maya. That was followed in this summary, I think. (It's kind of like with me: until I was a teenager, I was called "Chris" (by my family), and then others called me Christy, Chrissy (although if you do that today, you die), and Christine, which is finally what I went with.) --Christine (talk) 03:54, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Although she has expressed some concern that she may overuse it, one of the literary techniques she uses is repetition. -- "it" is ambiguous until it is explained further in the sentence; perhaps reword as "Despite expressing some concern as to the story's repetition, it is one of the literary techniques..."?
- My version: Despite expressing some concern that she overuses it, repetition is one of the literary techniques Angelou uses. See, it's not the story that repetitious; it's the themes that show up over and over again in this book and her previous ones, like the mother leaving her child with his/her grandmother. I'm not sure I like my "solution", though, so if someone has a better idea... --Christine (talk) 04:05, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Travel and movement is a common theme in American autobiography, so important to Americans as a people that they have accorded it the status of a national myth. -- Speaking of repetition... "American" and "Americans" here is difficult to get around. :) How about, "Travel and movement are common themes in autobiographical works from the United States in that Americans have accorded it the status..." It can also be broken into two separate, but related, thoughts by replacing "in that" with a semi-colon and somewhat expanding on the slave narrative angle.
- Lupton states that Angelou's travel narrative, which takes up approximately 40 percent of the book... -- This is the third or fourth time that I've read this fact. I think it's definitely pertinent here, but you may want to remove it from the plot summary so it doesn't become old hat by the time the reader gets this far in the article.
- I agree, which is why I deleted it from the summary. --Christine (talk) 04:11, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Music is throughout Angelou's third autobiography... -- "prevalent throughout"? "present throughout"?
- The "Race" section begins a trend in which "white" and "black" become "White" and "Black". Earlier the phrase "a black American" is used, but it becomes "White world" and "fellow Black cast" here. Can we have consistency?
- The book is full of conflicts: the conflict in Angelou's marriage, the conflict she feels between being a good mother and a successful performer, the conflict between... -- Sorry, what is this section devoted to? I can't remember. :)
- Heh. This was me, hitting you over the head: THIS IS ABOUT CONFLICT! Please excuse me; I know full well that you're a lot smarter than that. ;) --Christine (talk) 04:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The "Critical reception" section seems skimpy, especially in comparison to the rest of the article. Is this all that is available? Was there really only one negative review? Can anything be said further about the book's legacy/impact, other than the fact that it was the first time an Af. Am. wrote a third autobiography?
- Perhaps this will be addressed after dealing with some of Scartol's issues and after tackling his suggestions about changing some of the format of this article. It is pretty skimpy here, but I did include everything I was able to find. Perhaps we can go into more of Angelou's general legacy, which will come from her bio and the Caged Bird article. Let me work on this some. --Christine (talk) 04:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In short, this is a very interesting article, but I think a serious copy-edit is needed, especially in order to cull some of the repetitious phrasings and to ensure that the tenses are presented consistently (or something closer to it) throughout. I'm also a slightly concerned about the "Critical reception" section, as stated above, but if that's all that is available, so be it. I'll be happy to support or offer further review if these concerns are addressed. María (habla conmigo) 14:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Maria. I think that Scartol's ce has helped improve things greatly here. Notice that I didn't comment on the stuff he fixed. I think that the repetition has been significantly culled, as per your request. I'll tackle Scar's issues now. --Christine (talk) 04:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Comment I'm doing some copyedit cleanup. Will report back when I'm done. Scartol • Tok 19:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I've done a thorough copyedit, so hopefully the prose is in better shape. I think the research is solid, and although this article feels much more slender than I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, that makes sense (since it's a much less prominent text). This article is very close to being FA quality; I'm nearly ready to support, but I'd like to see the Repetition/Style matter (described below) sorted first.
- Thanks, Scar. I think the prose is much improved now. I also think that your ce has gone far in addressing the repetition issue, and I think that your suggestions about changing the structure are spot-on. I agree that this article is MUCH slimmer than the Caged Bird article, but that' because yes, this book is less prominent and there is less written about it. If you look at Gather Together in My Name, Angelou's second autobiography, it's a Good Article, and like Blue's Clues, I don't think it has the potential to become any more than that, because it's even less prominent than Swingin' and Swingin' , and not as strong of a book as Angelou's first and third volumes. (How's that for weak prose with the run-on sentence!) --Christine (talk) 04:48, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Here are some questions and comments. I hope they're not too burdensome!
- Never! You always give good feedback.
- I'd like a single sentence or phrase in the lead explaining why she changed her name.
- Um, dude, it's already there, in the final sentence of the lead. Did you or Maria add it, or was that mine? This old lady can't remember! ;) --Christine (talk) 04:52, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I took "repetition" out of the list of themes in the lead, since it's more of a style matter from where I stand. Should there be a "Style" section? (I expect much of it would be repetitious (ha!) compared to Caged Bird, but essential nevertheless.) If you do create a style section, I would move the repetition section into it. Alternately, it seems like we could move much of the information in the "Repetition" subsection of "Themes" into the "Motherhood" subsection, which would also remedy the single-paragraph dilemma.
- I was all ready to disagree with you about the "Repetition" section, but once I added the "Style and genre" section, I agree with you now. A lot of what I added I brought over from the Caged Bird article, with appropriate revisions. Then I realized that the repetition that Angelou uses (i.e., leaving Guy with her mother just as her mother left Angelou and her brother with their grandmother) really is a stylistic distinction. I still disagree about the "Motherhood" section, since that theme is important throughout all her books. There can be a case for too much repetition, but I think it has a different focus. I solved the single paragraph dilemma by separating it into two; my paragraphs tend to be on the long side, anyway. What do you think about how I've addressed your issues? --Christine (talk) 06:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This bit feels like it belongs in "Reception": At least one reviewer expressed disappointment that Angelou did not use her status to effect any political change in Singin' and Swingin'. Hagen responds to this criticism by stating that Angelou's status during the events she describes in this autobiography did not lend itself to that kind of advocacy, and that as a person, Angelou had not evolved into the advocacy that would occur later in her life.
- Done. Doing this takes care of your problem with the single paragraph in the "Reception" section as well. --Christine (talk) 05:46, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Singin' and Swingin' opens after Angelou's previous autobiography, Gather Together in My Name. Does it open several months after the events at the end of that earlier book? Or after its publication? I'd like to see this be a bit more precise.
- The book doesn't really make this clear, but the assumption is that it's fairly soon after Gather Together ends, but it's never stated outright whether that's a week or a couple of years. So I added the word "shortly" to make the ambiguity less ambiguous. --Christine (talk) 04:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As scholar Dolly McPherson states, "When one encounters Maya Angelou in her story... This quote feels jammed into the paragraph. Might it be better positioned in the "Reception" section? Or, if you create a "Style" section, put it there?
- With all due respect, I vote to keep the quote as is. It introduces the Maya-character, something that should be in a plot summary, doncha think? --Christine (talk) 04:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fine.. Maybe add a phrase about: "As in her previous works, Angelou writes about the full range of her own experiences"? That's off the top of my head, surely you can word it better.. Something to introduce the quote a bit? Scartol • Tok 12:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay. Changed the wording a bit, to avoid two sentences in a row starting with the word "as": Angelou writes in this book, like her previous works, about the full range of her own experiences. --Christine (talk) 04:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- she is also bothered by her friends' reaction to her interracial marriage. (I adjusted the wording a bit.) I assume these are negative reactions? (If so, I'd like to add "negative".)
- but Tosh tells her that Annie has died. Given the arguments, etc between the two of them, perhaps we should use "informs" instead of "tells", assuming that's accurate?
- I wonder if we should wikilink the sad lovers in the section about Verona?
- Another good idea, one that I never thought of. Thanks again. --Christine (talk) 04:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does Guy/Clyde give a reason for changing his name? Is it connected to Maya's name change?
- That's never made clear in the book. It's as if he work one day, and announced, "I'm Guy now." I think it's another parallel/repetition, so no critic supports me in that. I don't think it's as connected as you'd think, though, since the two name changes occurred years apart. I think it was a young man identity thing, which, in another parallel, is one of the reasons she changes her name. Guy really was a remarkable young man, something that's made clear in her later books, especially The Heart of a Woman. (Improving that article is next on my agenda, btw.) --Christine (talk) 04:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- she accepts an engagement in Hawaii Acting? Singing? Dancing? All of the above?
- Again, not clear. So I changed it to "a job performing in Hawaii". Better? --Christine (talk) 04:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Of his praise for her singing, she writes: "Although I was not a great singer I was his mother, and he was my wonderful, dependently independent son". This sentence feels a bit odd. The quote is good, but I feel that it needs a better intro.
- Ok, I aim to please. Changed to "When he praises her singing..." --Christine (talk) 04:47, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I changed the wording of a sentence in the Repetition section to read: She includes in the third book some of the events that are described in her first two autobiographies. Please repair it if it's now factually inaccurate.
- And I moved it to the new "Style and genre" section as was suggested. And it's not that the same events were repeated; there are just strong parallels between how she fulfilled her role as a single mother and how her own mother handled it. One of the strongest things I learned in my MFT training was that these kinds of parallels happen in families all the time. It can be quite eerie. but very common. That's why Angelou felt so guilty throughout the P&B tour; she was terrified that someone horrible would happen to Guy like something horrible happened to her, and why she cut short the tour and resolved to never be separated from him again, for any reason. Her next book demonstrated how she lived up to that resolve, and quite admirably. She began to repeat the sins of the previous generations, but stopped it. That's what so hopeful about her story as a parent. There's a big difference between familial parallels and actual events. I solved it by cutting the phrase you rewrote (sorry) and leaving the discussion about the parallel in actions and behavior. I think it should satisfy us both. --Christine (talk) 05:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The second paragraph of "Travel" feels a little extraneous. I'd like to see the connection between physical and emotional journey made more explicit, and maybe cut out some of the specific details that are recounted elsewhere.
- I'm not sure I agree, Scar. The only real specific details are the list of the unhappy events, and I think it's necessary for clarification. As far as the physical and emotional journey aspect of this travel narrative, none of the sources go into that, unfortunately. Actually, if I were to ever write a scholarly paper on Angelou, it'd be about this very thing: The travel narrative aspect of her autobiographies and how it relates to the slave narrative. That really fascinates this white girl who's only lived in three states her entire life. --Christine (talk) 05:07, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We should have a source listed right after the "setting breaks open" quote. (I'm a big fan of a citation immediately following every quote.)
- Since the "Travel" section ends with a mention of race, perhaps we should move the "Race" section to follow it? (Move "Race" up or move "Travel" down?)
- I'm not sure I agree with doing it, but I bow to your expertise and logic. In other words, I can see why you'd want this, so I'm giving it to you. If we were to place the longest section first, as an indication of its importance, the "Race" section would go first. Personally, however, I think that "Travel" is the most important theme in this books, as per my comments above. I put "Music" second because of the book's title, but you can make a case for "Race" being part of the title as well. You're right, though; it flows better as per your suggestion. Maybe I'll change the end of "Travel" so that we can go back to the original placement. --Christine (talk) 05:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't have a problem with that. I also don't know if it's possible to rank themes in a book based on importance; usually they're fluid and interwoven. I do think it flows well now, but if you change wording, I don't have a problem with re-ordering. Scartol • Tok 12:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, I was always under the impression that themes should be ranked in order of importance. I might have even been told that by another editor, I dunno. But no matter--I think that if you can do both (place the more important content first, but make sure everything flows), that'd be the best situation. Transitions! That's always been a weakness in everything I do, even back as a sign language interpreter. I was always told my signs needed to flow more, and I'm still being told, as a writer/editor, that I need better transitions. The weird thing is my severely dd kids have the same trouble. But anyway, enough about me! ;) --Christine (talk) 04:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't have a problem with that. I also don't know if it's possible to rank themes in a book based on importance; usually they're fluid and interwoven. I do think it flows well now, but if you change wording, I don't have a problem with re-ordering. Scartol • Tok 12:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure the reference to (and picture of) James Weldon Johnson fits into the "Music" section. On the other hand, I'm not sure where else it could go..
- Yah, I know, I kinda feel similarly. If this is were a perfect world, I'll remove the Johnson image, have a map with everywhere Angelou travels in this book go into the "Travel" section, move the P&G image to "Music," and put a free image of Guy Johnson {MA's son) into the "Motherhood" section. Do we know of any editor who can create a map? --Christine (talk) 05:31, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made one before, but I can't create the preferred SVG format. And I'm not sure when I'd have the time. But perhaps at some point... Scartol • Tok 12:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That would be so cool. Or we can ask someone else, 'cause one of two things will happen. It'll never happen, 'cause you're always busy, or you're working on it right now because you're conscientious and so on-the-ball. You always ask the busiest person to do stuff, because one of the reasons they're so busy is that they excel so much and everyone around them knows that. Buit again, I digress. --Christine (talk) 04:20, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made one before, but I can't create the preferred SVG format. And I'm not sure when I'd have the time. But perhaps at some point... Scartol • Tok 12:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Angelou continues an examination of her experiences with discrimination, begun in her first two volumes and expands it to explore race and race relations. I feel like it is inaccurate to call that an expansion, since race and race relations are prominent themes in Caged Bird.
- Actually, the offending phrase is misleading and a little redundant, so I cut it. It reads better now, and is much more clear. --Christine (talk) 04:28, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Later, she has a friendship among equals with Jorie, Don, and Barrie, who assist her job quest at The Purple Onion. (I adjusted the wording a bit already.) I assume these are white folks? If so, they should be identified as such.
- So I identified them, as MA's "white co-workers". Hey, I just noticed something! Scartol, you're the only other person other than me I've ever met that uses the word "folks" ti describe a group of people. Although I used it most often to refer to Deaf people, a la "Deaf folks." How weird is that! --Christine (talk) 04:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I picked it up (like many other linguistic patterns, since he's just so cool) from Cornel West. It's a great word that defuses some of the tension that folks have when discussing race. (BTW the fixes you've done here are good -- I just don't have time to respond to each one. Nice work as always!) Scartol • Tok 11:33, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Could we get an example of how her experiences with Porgy and Bess help her broaden her view of race and race relations?
- I added this phrase: as she meets people of different nationalities during her travels. Is that enough? --Christine (talk) 04:48, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not a fan of single-paragraph sections. I'm not sure how to remedy this, but it seems like there must be a way.
- I know, I know. We could put the "Motherhood" and "Conflict" sections together, but that would be cheating. See, I don't have an issue with it (obviously). The only other solution I can see to helping you feel better about that section is to add more content, but I think that the current version summarizes the theme, which I think (obviously) is important enough to include. Sorry, can't help you more. --Christine (talk) 04:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Could we get the name of the publication in which Margaret McFadden-Gerber's negative review appeared?
- Sure. I don't see why, since it's in the reference, but I aim to please.
- Kudos to Christine for her hard work on another important article! I look forward to supporting soon. Scartol • Tok 19:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
images File:Angelou3.jpg has no valid fu rationale Fasach Nua (talk) 22:53, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, since I've gone on the record numerous times admitting my deficiency in understanding image policy, but I believe this image doesn't need a FUR, since it has a Non-free media use rationale. If I am wrong, please let me know, plus what we need to do to fix. --Christine (talk) 04:45, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes the two are the same thing, however the purpose states:
- The image serves as the primary means of visual identification of the subject (the book).
- It illustrates educational articles about the book from which the cover illustration was taken.
- Neither of these are purposes, You need to add why the subject needs a visual identification, and why the article needs illustrated, referencing WP:NFCC Fasach Nua (talk) 07:17, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Understood. I made some changes, which are hopefully to your satisfaction. (BTW, it's pretty much stolen from the description of the infobox image in To Kill a Mockingbird. --Christine (talk) 04:47, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes the two are the same thing, however the purpose states:
Comment I don't see the issues mentioned earlier in the review on a quick scan. It's a quick read, which I like. I'll revisit later today with a closer read-through in case I've missed something. Definitely leaning support. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Found some rough patches, mostly in the lead.
- Repetition in the first two sentences > try to tighten up a little
- The book, which includes a wide geographical range, covers most of Angelou's twenties > the book doesn't literally cover wide geographical range or Angelou's twenties. Try something like: In the book, which spans the time period when Angelou was in her twenties, Angelou presents a wide area of geography (this is my no means perfect, just an example)
- the rest of the sentence mentioned above is very long. Try to separate.
- Swingin' and Singin' continues to examine > the book doesn't examine. Try something like: In Swingin' and Singin' Angelou examines....
- especially in Angelou's depictions of her travels, which take up 40 percent of the book > needs to be reworded. How about: Approximately 40 percent of the book consists of Angelou's travels .... ?
- She goes into the hospital for an appendectomy, and announces her desire to return to her grandmother in Stamps, but Tosh informs her that Annie has died. > do we know why he hadn't told her earlier? When did the grandmother die in relation to when she had the appendectomy?
- her career begins to take off > too literal. Needs to be reworded.
- Should Whites be capitalized? (I'd tend to say no, but could be convinced otherwise).
- Nice informative article. I enjoyed reading it. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward A few comments from me here. :) The article is interesting, but still has a few issues. I've outlined them below.
- General
- "It made her "without a doubt, ... America's most visible black woman autobiographer"." - this should probably be attributed inline
- "Travel is a common theme in American autobiography as a whole; it is something of a national myth to Americans as a people." - The last half seems just a little POV to me. You should probably attribute that inline.
- "...Angelou works out her relationships with the White world..." - I am not sure "White" should be capitalized here. If it is in the source though, its ok.
- "...with fellow Black cast..." same here, black should probably be lower case, unless it is a last name (but I don't think that is what is meant there)
- There are several other instances where "White" and "Black" are capitalized, please review each of these to make sure it is appropriate, they should only be capitalized when being used as a proper name.
- Prose
- "...it marked the first time a..." how about just "...it was the first time a..."
- "Angelou's first two autobiographies, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and Gather Together in My Name, recounted her early life, from the age of four when Caged Bird begins, to the end of her teenage years at the end of Gather Together." - this is a little tricky to understand. how about "Angelou's first two autobiographies were I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings and Gather Together in My Name. They recounted her early life, starting when she was age of four and progressing through her her teenage years."
- "Through the writing of her life stories," - how about - "Through writing her life story," - I am not sure a person can have more than one life story, unless perhaps they were reincarnated. :)
- "Angelou changed the verb endings in her title to parallel the black vernacular and, because music was one of the book's themes, to evoke the sound of a blues singer." - how about - " Because music was one of the book's themes, Angelou changed the verb endings in her title to better reflect black dialect and evoke the sound of a blues singer."
- Reference 27 & 28 each have their page number linked, but others from the same source do not? Why? I'd suggest removing those links.
- Ref # 9, 31, & 62 are the same and should be combined.
- In "O'Neale, Sondra" and "Cudjoe, Selwyn R" references, there is a period in "N.Y", but no such periods in the other references states. This should be uniform.
- Citations needed
- "Angelou was one of the first African American female writers to publicly discuss her personal life, and one of the first to use herself as a central character in her books, something she continued in Singin' and Swingin'."
- "Critic Mary Jane Lupton insisted that the title, one of the many similes Angelou uses, was tied to the book's themes. Lupton also considered the title "ironic"; Angelou used "old-fashioned" and "positive" words—singin' and swingin' —that reflected several meanings related to the text" - quotes without citations
- "Not all is "merry like Christmas", however; the book is also marked by negative events: her painful marriage and divorce, the death of her grandmother, and her long separation from her son." uncited quote
- "McPherson calls Singin' and Swingin' "Angelou's praisesong" to the opera" - uncited quote - I note there is a cite for this in the lead though.
- "Motherhood was a "prevailing theme" throughout Angelou's autobiographies." - uncited quote
- "...although she preferred the rhythm of Caged Bird, found Singin' and Swingin' "very professional, even-toned, and ... quite engaging"." uncited quote
- References
- I've always been somewhat neutral on using Primary sources for establishing plots. There are a few paragraphs in the plot sections though that have no citations at the end. You should probably put some there.
- Alt text present
- Except for the lead image
- Images
- File:Porgy and Bess1.jpg has not date
- File:Angelou3.jpg is non-free. It lacks source, date, publisher, etc. Fair use rationale is acceptable
- File:Purpleonion.jpg is also non-free. It lacks a good fair use rationale in my opinion. It should probably be removed from the article.
Oppose Overall this article is pretty good. I pointed out the most obvious prose issues, but there are a number more. This article could still do with a fair copyedit. The number of uncited quotes, the prose, and the usage of the the purple onion image make me have to oppose for now. None of these issues are hard to address though, and if you can I'd be glad to change to support. Great job so far, I see you've put alot of work into the article. Keep up the good work and you will have a feature article on your hands soon enough! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 14:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by Dabomb87 14:01, 12 April 2010 [3].
Christ myth theory
I am nominating this for featured article status because, since its last FAC, it has completed a Peer Review and a compromise has been reached regarding some of the more controversial elements through formal mediation. I realize that this is a provocative topic that engenders strong opinions. Special effort has been made, however, to reference every possibly contestable statement and an FAQ has been included to address some of the more common prima facie concerns like bias and content-forking. A number of controversial articles (e.g. global warming, intelligent design, Xenu, etc) have achieved FA status and I'd like very much if the Christ myth theory could join their ranks. If as a reviewer you see a problem with the article, please, rather than immediately object to the FAC, indicate what the problem is and give the involved editors time to reply and possibly alter the article. Eugene (talk) 15:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links.
Link to http://www.infidelguy.com/feed-listen-834-836/Tape428_bart_ehrman.mp3 requires login.Ucucha 15:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The Infidel Guy Show episode in view here can be found on YouTube but the article's editors felt it was better to link to the official source. If the reviewers here disagree it would be effortless for us to re-link to the YouTube file. Eugene (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Comments – for now. This is a well-written and engaging contribution. I have made a few notes during my two readings. They are not in any particular order so forgive me.
Here, "Whatever modest fame Robertson and Smith had achieved, they were soon overshadowed by Arthur Drews" - sounds a little biased; the subject of the sentence is "fame" so should "they were" be "it was"?
I think "a historical" should be "an historical".
- Both are correct, it's a matter of regional/generational differences. "A historical" is more in line with modern American English, which is the variant in which the article is written. Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't like how the references and footnotes are mixed, and are all those lengthy quotations therein necessary?
- Since the article has proven uber-contentious, the editors have included tons of quotes in the footnotes to limit objections to the sources based on ignorance of the subject or secondary literature. Once the article achieves FA (thus establishing its reliability) I'd be happy to go back and convert most the quotations to bare references. Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In this sentence form the Lead, "The proponents of the theory trace the evolution of Christianity through a conjectural understanding of the evolution of the New Testament literature, giving primacy to the epistles over the gospels in determining the views of the earliest Christians" sounds very biased. How about "The proponents of the theory give primacy to the epistles over the gospels in determining the views of the earliest Christians"?
- "conjectural understanding of the evolution of the New Testament literature" is included because CMT advocates believe, in contrast to mainstream scholarship, that the narrative of Jesus (which is recorded in the gospels) grew out of the epistles, and not vice versa. I think this information is helpful, but if you're adamant, I'll change it. Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I am adamant. I'm concerned with maintaining WP:NPOV and explaining another person's point of view as clearly and fairly as you can. Much of mainstream biblical scholarship is conjecture in my view. Graham Colm (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "conjectural understanding of the evolution of the New Testament literature" is included because CMT advocates believe, in contrast to mainstream scholarship, that the narrative of Jesus (which is recorded in the gospels) grew out of the epistles, and not vice versa. I think this information is helpful, but if you're adamant, I'll change it. Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why is "great forerunners" inside quotation marks?
Here, "Bauer's views proved to be foundational for much of the Christ myth community of later generations" - is foundational a word? How about, "proved to be the foundation"?
- I don't think the universities of Amsterdam and Berlin need to be linked.
- I'm sort of surprised this is an issue. The article wikilinks to the universities of Bonn, Amsterdam, Zurich, Tulane, Berlin, Baylor, just recently London, and the Technische Hochschule Karlsruhe. Why is wikilinking to specifically the universities of Berlin and Amsterdam problematic? Also, I note that the FA Huldrych Zwingli article wikilinks to the universities of Basel and Vienna. Eugene (talk) 22:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This sounds odd, "who were known in German scholarship" - does it mean "called by German scholars"?
Here, "As Joseph Klausner wrote at the time, Biblical scholars "tried their hardest ..." why is biblical spelt with an upper case B ?
Similarly "G" here "Robertson concluded that those elements of the Gospel narrative which."
- Here, "A variety of other less well known authors advocated versions of the Christ myth theory during this period as well" A variety of and as well are redundant.
- I'm not sure that that's true. "As well" is just another way of saying "too"; is "A variety of other less well known authors advocated versions of the Christ myth theory during this period too." redundant? Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What about "A variety of"? Graham Colm (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand. Eugene (talk) 22:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's redundant and dismissive, try, "Other authors advocated versions of the Christ myth theory during this period." Graham Colm (talk) 18:34, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand. Eugene (talk) 22:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What about "A variety of"? Graham Colm (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure that that's true. "As well" is just another way of saying "too"; is "A variety of other less well known authors advocated versions of the Christ myth theory during this period too." redundant? Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here the "etc" is not at all helpful, "Osiris was resurrected from the dead, etc."
There seems to be an extra period here, "their particular socio-religious tastes.."
- I think "mainstream" is over used and "the scholarly mainstream" is an ugly expression.
- "Mainstream" does get used a lot. What do you suggest instead? As for "the scholarly mainstream", the expression appears rather often in published literature. Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is an important issue re WP:NPOV. I get the impression that the views of those who are not recognised, mainstream biblical scholars are deemed to be less valid or not valid at all. I sense a bias every time I read the word. Graham Colm (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, shouldn't the views of recognized mainstream scholars in the field be seen as more valid than amateurs? I mean, think about another topic that you're very familiar with, like microbiology. Would you object to an article on virons which implies that recognized, mainstream virologists should be taken more seriously than dilettantes who contradict the academic consensus regarding some detail or other? Eugene (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a red herring, just as are comparisons to intelligent design, and an appeal to my vanity. But I would welcome any contribution on any virus that is written from a neutral point of view and does not cherry-pick its sources. Graham Colm (talk) 18:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How could a man as dashing and seductive as yourself think that the virology comparison is a red herring? (See, now that's an appeal to vanity!) Seriously though, it seems like a perfect comparison: would you really object to a page on AIDS denialism giving greater weight to sources published by recognized mainstream virologist than countervailing sources published by, say, philosophers, German language professors, and mathematicians? I can't believe that you would have a problem with that; it's merely in keeping with Wikipedia's policies on sources. Eugene (talk) 19:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Another red herring. This discussion is about this candidate only— period. I will not be drawn into this unhelpful argument. Graham Colm (talk) 20:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How could a man as dashing and seductive as yourself think that the virology comparison is a red herring? (See, now that's an appeal to vanity!) Seriously though, it seems like a perfect comparison: would you really object to a page on AIDS denialism giving greater weight to sources published by recognized mainstream virologist than countervailing sources published by, say, philosophers, German language professors, and mathematicians? I can't believe that you would have a problem with that; it's merely in keeping with Wikipedia's policies on sources. Eugene (talk) 19:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a red herring, just as are comparisons to intelligent design, and an appeal to my vanity. But I would welcome any contribution on any virus that is written from a neutral point of view and does not cherry-pick its sources. Graham Colm (talk) 18:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, shouldn't the views of recognized mainstream scholars in the field be seen as more valid than amateurs? I mean, think about another topic that you're very familiar with, like microbiology. Would you object to an article on virons which implies that recognized, mainstream virologists should be taken more seriously than dilettantes who contradict the academic consensus regarding some detail or other? Eugene (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is an important issue re WP:NPOV. I get the impression that the views of those who are not recognised, mainstream biblical scholars are deemed to be less valid or not valid at all. I sense a bias every time I read the word. Graham Colm (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Mainstream" does get used a lot. What do you suggest instead? As for "the scholarly mainstream", the expression appears rather often in published literature. Eugene (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The citation after "for this has not been done in a corner" is an external link.
The vague "a number of" is used four times.
That's all for the time being.Graham Colm (talk) 10:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Following my third reading, I have decided to oppose the promotion of this candidate. I think it contravenes WP:NPOV. In the Lead for example, there is "the proponents of the theory" rather than the theory, and the last sentence of the Lead—"The Christ myth theory is essentially without supporters in modern academic circles, biblical scholars and classical historians being highly dismissive of it, viewing it as pseudo-scholarship"—establishes the biased theme of this contribution. This article is essentially an a attempt to debunk the "myth" and is not written from a neutral point of view. Graham Colm (talk) 21:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have nothing further to add to this FAC. The nominator seems to be more interested in argument than consensus building. Graham Colm (talk) 20:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm a little disappointed by the oppose vote. I've changed the wording of the lead to focus more on the theory itself and not the proponents. As regards the final sentence of the lead though, WP:FRINGE clearly states that "[a]rticles which cover controversial, disputed, or discounted ideas in detail should document (with reliable sources) the current level of their acceptance among the relevant academic community." The guideline goes on to state that "[i]deas that have been rejected, are widely considered to be absurd or pseudoscientific, only of historical interest, or primarily the realm of science fiction, should be documented as such, using reliable sources." I fail to see how the current lead for the CMT article oversteps these bounds. By way of comparison, look at the FA intelligent design article: the lead of that article states that ID is "not science" three times, "psuedoscience" once, and "junk science" once. The CMT article is being gentle with its subject by comparison! Please, please reconsider the oppose vote--at least for a few days. If you have specific NPOV concerns make them known and the article's editors will address them as I have your more prosaic concerns. Eugene (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The intelligent design article clearly attributes the pseudoscience description to well known bodies, not individuals, which does make a big difference. Also pseudoscience is easier to prove as there is a clear scientific method that they contravene, whereas the historical method is a lot less clear cut. The only reason to overstate the case in historical research would be on ideological grounds. Sophia ♫ 11:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's not rehash this all over again here, Sophia. Sufficied to say that you yourself agreed [4] to categorize this article as pseudoscholarship. Also, as regards the intelligent design page, you're simply mistaken. In addition to the institutional denunciations, that article's lead states "Others in the scientific community have concurred, and some have called it junk science." That statement is supported by a couple refs with five sources, none of which are official statements from scientific bodies. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Eugene (talk) 14:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I missed the word "just" as in "not just individuals". If you can find as good from some official historical body then that would make an important addition to the article. Sophia ♫ 17:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The chariman of the SBL's Historical Jesus Section (quote at the end of the section) isn't official enough? Come on, Sophia, let's not repeat the endless talk page wrangling here. Eugene (talk) 17:39, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I missed the word "just" as in "not just individuals". If you can find as good from some official historical body then that would make an important addition to the article. Sophia ♫ 17:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's not rehash this all over again here, Sophia. Sufficied to say that you yourself agreed [4] to categorize this article as pseudoscholarship. Also, as regards the intelligent design page, you're simply mistaken. In addition to the institutional denunciations, that article's lead states "Others in the scientific community have concurred, and some have called it junk science." That statement is supported by a couple refs with five sources, none of which are official statements from scientific bodies. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Eugene (talk) 14:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The intelligent design article clearly attributes the pseudoscience description to well known bodies, not individuals, which does make a big difference. Also pseudoscience is easier to prove as there is a clear scientific method that they contravene, whereas the historical method is a lot less clear cut. The only reason to overstate the case in historical research would be on ideological grounds. Sophia ♫ 11:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Leaning towards oppose. With no prior knowledge of the subject, this article seems wildly unbalanced to me; it reads to me like it's been written (or rewritten) by someone who's a strong advocate of a particular point of view on the matter and is willing to throw core principles of NPOV out the window to belittle anyone expressing another view. Wild throw-mud-and-hope-it-sticks accusations, such as "These issues have led a number of scholars to class the Christ myth theory as a form of denialism" are slipped into the article as cited facts, but the "number of scholars" cited in the footnote transpire to be books published by Christian publishers Eerdmans and Thomas Nelson, a book called The Case for the Real Jesus, and an interview with Bart D. Ehrman, none of which can be considered remotely impartial on the matter. Obvious POV material such as "As Mark Allan Powell, the chairman of the Historical Jesus Section of the Society of Biblical Literature, has stated, "A hundred and fifty years ago a fairly well respected scholar named Bruno Bauer maintained that the historical person Jesus never existed. Anyone who says that today—in the academic world at least—gets grouped with the skinheads who say there was no Holocaust and the scientific holdouts who want to believe the world is flat." is included without comment as "commentary from a scholar", when "chairman of the Historical Jesus Section of the Society of Biblical Literature" should set off warning bells right away. These are just two examples; it seems riddled top-to-bottom with an inherent POV of "anyone who believes this is a crank, anyone who doesn't believe it is a scholar", and to me this seems so pervasive that it needs a top-to-bottom cleanup and a strong look at the sourcing, before it's going to come close to meeting 1(d). – iridescent 17:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I notice that in your litany against the sources in the relevant footnote you fail to mention that a book published by Oxford University Press is cited and that Bart Ehrman is an agnostic. Also, while Eerdmans is certainly a Christian publisher, it's not hopelessly biased as you claim: Eerdmans has published work [5] by the militant atheist Hector Avalos and a sympathetic memoir [6] of John Allegro (a Christ myth theorist, by the way) by Allegro's own daughter. As for the Society of Biblical Literature, why should this "set off warning bells"? The SBL is the premiere body studying the Old and New Testaments; well known skeptics (e.g. Robert Price) and atheists (e.g. Hector Avalos) are members and some well known critics of Christian orthodoxy have held serious leadership positions (e.g. Elaine Pagels & Bart Ehrman). As for looking at the sourcing, one of the page's most tenacious critics, Sophia who commented above, conceeded in the recent mediation that the sources in question meet the standards of WP:IRS. Again, I'm pleading with the reviews here who are concerned with tone and POV issues, compare this article's lead against that at intelligent design which has not only achieved FA but survived two FAR's. If that article is acceptably NPOV but this article isn't, I don't know how to interpret that as anything else than a double-standard. Eugene (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The quote from the OUP book (a) doesn't mention holocaust denial (or any other form of denial), and (b) is not "commentary by a neutral scholar" but a quote from the Bishop of Durham. Even in the Church of England, I'd imagine "refuse to admit the possibility that the Bible isn't true" is part of the job description.
- I'm not going to take up your suggestion of "compare it to Intelligent design; I've not read that article nor does its FA status have anything to do with this one. That was promoted more than three years ago (in a rather dubious FAC) and scraped through an FAR in 2008, and the article as promoted has only the vaguest resemblance to the current article. This is the FAC of Christ myth theory, not the FAR for Intelligent design. – iridescent 18:21, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair point about the intelligent design FAC; this isn't that and that isn't this. I think you're dismissing high-quality sources rather glibbly though. Yes, Wright is a clergyman in the Anglican Communion, but so was James Pike, so is John Shelby Spong, and so is even Tom Harpur--a Christ myth theorist! Those Anglicans are a broad minded bunch. So I think it's entirely unfair to just dismiss the man Newsweek described as "perhaps the world's leading New Testament scholar" on the grounds that he's probably biased. Are you suggesting that this article, because it's about Jesus, shouldn't quote scholars who happen to be Christians? Doesn't that seem a bit... odd? And while, yes, Wright don't class the CMT with a speficially denialist theory, he does compare it to the belief that the moon is made of cheese. Eugene (talk) 19:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not dispute that they were reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia, however as Eugene knows I do not support this FAC as I do not think quotes have been used in a balanced way. Any attempt to work on the article is met by disparaging abuse making it a very unpleasant place to edit. Sophia ♫ 18:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes – I'm starting to see why mediation was necessary. I've not read either the mediation nor the PR, nor do I intend to; this is FAC and I'm judging it by my interpretation of FAC standards, not what was agreed at a mediation. As it stands, my interpretation is that this is wildly POV, cherry-picking sources, and written as a debunking job rather than a neutral commentary (almost 50% of the article at present consists of attacks on the theory, dismissive commentary on its supporters like "less well known authors" and attempts of varying crudeness to link its proponents to Hitler and Stalin); consequently, I don't think it's going to be in a position to meet 1(d) without significant rewriting. – iridescent 19:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I never intended to give the impression that Sophia supports this FAC; I specifically said that she is one of the "page's most tenacious critics". I only hoped to show an editor "[w]ith no prior knowledge of the subject" that, even among the page's detractors, those more familiar with the topic grant that the sources in question meet Wikipedia' reliability guidelines. I've also cut the phrase "less well known" from the "Other advocates" section, though I don't understand why this was controversial; some authors are better known than others, aren't they? As for cherry-picking, what are you referring to? All of the contentious material is referenced, most of those references include substantial quotations you can check, there is a massive bibliography, and most of the authors have their own wiki pages. Are you claiming that the editors have systematically excluded some notable body of countervailing academic literature in a relevant field? If so, how could you possibly know this if, as you admit, you have "no prior knowledge of the subject"? Is it just a knee-jerk assumption? Eugene (talk) 19:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I freely admit it's an argument from absence; however, as the article itself mentions other works on the topic, but you're only citing your most controversial claims to works by people with a clear and obvious POV (it bears repeating that the views of a serving bishop on the historical truth of the gospels have no validity in a Wikipedia context other than as a source for what the church believes), I'm inferring that you're choosing to work only with those sources with which you agree, while dismissing everyone else with "While largely uncredentialed, a few of these authors have achieved a degree of notability in their own right". (The final paragraph is also extremely dubious in using only figures from English-speaking Christian countries to define "the general population".) – iridescent 19:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You've got to be kidding me. So the the man Newsweek described as "perhaps the world's leading New Testament scholar" now has "no validity in a Wikipedia context other than as a source for what the church believes"? Come on. I'm starting to think that it's not the article that has the POV issues here. As for your comcerns about the emphasis on the Anglosphere at the end of the article, those were the only RS surveys I could find; it's not like I've tried to prevent other editors from including data on Japan or India or somthing. And honestly, do you really think that the agnostic Bart Ehrman, (cited a few times in the article, mind you) has "a clear and obvious POV"? That just seems a little silly. Eugene (talk) 19:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I freely admit it's an argument from absence; however, as the article itself mentions other works on the topic, but you're only citing your most controversial claims to works by people with a clear and obvious POV (it bears repeating that the views of a serving bishop on the historical truth of the gospels have no validity in a Wikipedia context other than as a source for what the church believes), I'm inferring that you're choosing to work only with those sources with which you agree, while dismissing everyone else with "While largely uncredentialed, a few of these authors have achieved a degree of notability in their own right". (The final paragraph is also extremely dubious in using only figures from English-speaking Christian countries to define "the general population".) – iridescent 19:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I never intended to give the impression that Sophia supports this FAC; I specifically said that she is one of the "page's most tenacious critics". I only hoped to show an editor "[w]ith no prior knowledge of the subject" that, even among the page's detractors, those more familiar with the topic grant that the sources in question meet Wikipedia' reliability guidelines. I've also cut the phrase "less well known" from the "Other advocates" section, though I don't understand why this was controversial; some authors are better known than others, aren't they? As for cherry-picking, what are you referring to? All of the contentious material is referenced, most of those references include substantial quotations you can check, there is a massive bibliography, and most of the authors have their own wiki pages. Are you claiming that the editors have systematically excluded some notable body of countervailing academic literature in a relevant field? If so, how could you possibly know this if, as you admit, you have "no prior knowledge of the subject"? Is it just a knee-jerk assumption? Eugene (talk) 19:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes – I'm starting to see why mediation was necessary. I've not read either the mediation nor the PR, nor do I intend to; this is FAC and I'm judging it by my interpretation of FAC standards, not what was agreed at a mediation. As it stands, my interpretation is that this is wildly POV, cherry-picking sources, and written as a debunking job rather than a neutral commentary (almost 50% of the article at present consists of attacks on the theory, dismissive commentary on its supporters like "less well known authors" and attempts of varying crudeness to link its proponents to Hitler and Stalin); consequently, I don't think it's going to be in a position to meet 1(d) without significant rewriting. – iridescent 19:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not dispute that they were reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia, however as Eugene knows I do not support this FAC as I do not think quotes have been used in a balanced way. Any attempt to work on the article is met by disparaging abuse making it a very unpleasant place to edit. Sophia ♫ 18:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- ←I did say I wouldn't reply again, but just to sum up for S/K/R's benefit: I don't think this article in its current form is near ready. Regardless of whether this is a fringe theory or not—I personally couldn't really care less if someone really existed 2000 years ago, given that barring major new discoveries it will never be provable either way—this is not Christ myth theory, it's List of reasons why the Christ myth theory is wrong. – iridescent 20:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just going to toss out a few comments here. I tried to guide the article through mediation the last few weeks (Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Christ myth theory). As I was new to the mediation process, I undoubtedly did not handle it particularly well, but one thing that I tried to stress during the mediation was that anyone who felt that the article did not meet NPOV should bring up reliable sources to support their claim. A number of sources were indeed brought up that supposedly noted that the CMT might have validity. A number of these were dismissed; in retrospect I should have tried to focus more on them and ensure that the dismissal of those sources was proper. They were: Martin, Thompson, Pearson, Jonas, Campbell, Graves, DeConnick, Avalos, Feder, and Davies (what books those authors wrote are located on the mediation page). Perhaps someone independent could check over those authors again and make sure that their views are not being improperly excluded from the article? I am thinking in particular of Martin and Avalos, as well as Thompson. NW (Talk) 23:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - The problem some are having in evaluating this article is that they are unaware of historical methodology. For example, when dealing with ancient history, there is nothing which is provable (in a mathematical sense). There are only probabilities. And the probability that Jesus didn't exist is so low that historians of all types of backgrounds have labeled the CMT, in one way or another, as "crazy".
- Therefore, it only appears as a "List of reasons why the Christ myth theory is wrong" to you (Iridescent), and possibly others, because a bizarre and crazy theory means that there will be a whole host of evidence against it. Thus, this article adheres quite nicely to Fringe (levels of acceptance) policies. That's my $0.02.
- Full disclosure - I have not been a significant editor of the main text of this article, but I have made significant contributions to the Talk page and was involved in the mediation with both Eugene and Sophia. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 21:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose per the NPOV concerns above, per Slim Virgin's comments on the previous FAC and WP:SOAPBOX. Christ_myth_theory#Other_writers_2 should be the bulk of the article, these are the authors even I've heard of in connection with this topic. As the quotes in the footnotes (particularly Christ_myth_theory#Scholarly_reception) demonstrate there has not been a scholarly review of the Christ Myth material, so why spend 80% of the article informing readers about something that hasn't happened in inflammatory language? This would be like focusing on the scholarly reception of pop music lyrics. CD-Host (talk) 00:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll just avoid the mess above. I've never used the Reference List formatting used here. I assume the "authormask" field creates the em dashes for a repeat of the same author. I haven't checked the WP:MoS on this, but I never did that here on Wikipedia simply because if someone else adds another reference in between... If the "authormask" formatting takes care of that, disregard. Also, for some reason, some of the em dashes are longer than others. Maybe there's a reason for that? I'm not aware of that might be. Finally, some of the em dashes for "ibid" author are followed by a semicolon and most aren't. Easy cleanup. If these were the biggest problems with the article, there wouldn't be any problem at all... Airborne84 (talk) 05:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose As long as some editors feel the need for this article to preach that the myth theory is "pseudo-scholarship" and "fringe", it shouldn't pass the FAC process. I don't see anything obviously fraudulent about Christ-myth theory; it's not as if its proponents, particularly its earliest ones, planted or fabricated evidence, and they seem to have done the little the historical method requires: formulate a thesis, gather evidence and cites in support of thesis, and engage critics' challenges. In fact, this theory is not analogous to the intelligent design movement, as they claim -- most commentators agree that intelligent design contravenes a core tenet of the scientific method, in not making testable predictions or being falsifiable, as well as obviously having antecedents in creationism, which has rarely aspired to the methodology of science. The correct analogy is to Lamarck's theory of inherited traits; patently, almost laughably wrong in retrospect, but quite plausible in the scientific context of his time. We do not label the theories of even the tragically wrong Aristotle and Anaximenes as "fringe" or "psuedo-science" and belabor to prove them wrong in their articles; it should be the same for at least Bruno Bauer's careful formulation. FWIW, I came to edit the article as a relatively strident atheist and came away feeling that Christ Myth Theory was lacking, as many editors seem to want to impart. But you can do that with just the facts -- please let them speak for themselves.71.203.159.37 (talk) 03:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:36, 8 April 2010 [7].
Spiritual Machines
- Nominator(s): Publichall (talk) 00:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because it has been greatly improved since it's last attempt at featured article. It now has pictures and the citation formatting has been unified among many other things. Several dedicated wikipedians and I have scoured the article numerous times and have deemed it worthy. Thanks Publichall (talk) 00:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. A dab link to The Collegian and a dead external link to http://billboard.com/bbcom/esearch/chart_display.jsp?cfi=305&cfgn=Albums&cfn=The+Billboard+200&ci=3083086&cdi=9221112&cid=04%2F07%2F2007. Ucucha 01:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose, suggest peer review and thorough copyedit instead. Prose seems substandard, with sentences like
- "Although not initially intended, the project evolved into a conceptual interpretation of futurist and inventor Raymond Kurzweil's 1999 book The Age of Spiritual Machines and featured spoken dialog from Kurzweil himself."
(not intended as what?) and
- "Unlike their previous releases, this one features a more natural sound, and less obvious layering and electronic texturing."
(why so complex a sentence structure?). Then we get:
- "While touring rigorously"
with mathematical rigor? Further redundancies further down ("becoming", "proceeded to"), then inappropriate use of a first name only, overlinking to email. Full of quotes, more than would be appropriate (cf. the essay WP:QUOTE). I see more similar problems in the rest of the article, but won't list them all; a good copyeditor will catch those. Ucucha 01:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. I'm going to agree with Ucucha and do a Tony1 on you. Can you spot the redundant words in "In total, he made around 200 paintings relating to the project ..."? More seriously, some parts don't seem to be consistent. In the lead, for instance, we're told that "the album was written and recorded in two months while the band was still on tour", but two sentences later we're told that "the band only took a break from recording to organize and perform at Summersault in 2000". This isn't ready for FAC yet. Malleus Fatuorum 21:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose— I agree with the other reviewers. Despite the extensive work on the article at it's previous FAC, problems remain. Redundancy is a common problem. For example this, "Spiritual Machines has been noted as being the end of an era for Our Lady Peace, as it was the last album produced by the band's longtime producer Arnold Lanni, the last to feature original guitarist Mike Turner in full, the last studio album to feature art model Saul Fox on its cover, and the last album to feature Maida's high-falsetto singing voice prominently." Try "marked the end of an era" and we have "the last" repeatedly. Later on there is this, "recorded during a year in which the band was doing extensive touring of Canada, the United States, and Europe", I don't think the "was doing" works. Returning to the Lead, spot the redundant word here, "Short tracks of spoken dialog from Kurzweil himself are interspersed among the actual songs on the album." Graham Colm (talk) 16:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:26, 9 April 2010 [8].
Michelle Obama
- Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because it was previously nominated two and a half months after she assumed the role of First Lady of the United States. There were issues with recentism and what her long term role is. Now that she has established her legacy objective and undertaken a role in running an administrationwide initiative, I think it is time to reconsider whether this article is among the finest at summarizing the bio of this living person.TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Ucucha 00:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The eligibility of this article is not clear for the cup. If it passes, we will request clarification.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. A dab link to protocol and link to Melvinia Shields, which redirects back to the article.
- Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- External link to http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-michelle_obama_first_ladynov09,0,7595775.story is said to be an expiring news link; perhaps make a WebCite archive.
- I don't believe it is really expiring. Tribune article either expire in a couple of months or stay around. If it goes dead, we can fix it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Links to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/2118953/Fox-News-presenter-taken-off-air-after-Barack-Obama-%27terrorist-fist-jab%27-remark.html and http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2007/05/22/news/iowa/819e27c77eaa19fc862572e30012e0d4.txt are dead.
- Lead seems rather short for an article this size. Ucucha 00:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have on numerous occasions beefed up the WP:LEAD to this article. However, this is a very contentious article and content is refined by numerous eyes. I am fairly certain that any attempt to inflate the current LEAD would in a matter of a week or ten days be reverted back to approximately the current version.
- Comments: The books under "Further reading" are not formatted properly; an author's surname is always first, and I'm not aware of any standard style (MLA, APA, Chicago, etc.) that lists the month of publication as well as the year -- correct me if I'm wrong on the last point, however. Publication cities are also missing in all three instances. In addition, is there a reason why the books listed are not used as references for the article? From what I can tell after a quick skimming, most of the references are news reports and articles, which is great if that's all there is, but my belief is that if there are reputable, published works available, why not use them? María (habla conmigo) 12:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can reformat the citations. However, if you are telling me that I have to read a couple of novels to advance this FAC, it is not going to happen. On many subjects there are far more references than are used in creating the article. Does this article appear to be lacking breadth, depth or WP:RS for the material that exists?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not telling you to do anything, Tony. But now that you mention it, what's so wrong about reading books for the sake of a gold star? ;) The question is, does this article -- which relies solely on online news sources when there are seemingly reliable, published works available -- truly present a "representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic"? I obviously haven't read the books, or even the article in its entirety, but past FACs have been hit with such queries in the past. Because this is such an important article, and one that will continue to be scrutinized by many readers, the references should obviously be of the highest quality currently available. If the books in question are not worth the paper they're printed on, okay; but they should at least be assessed to find whether or not they can be of use. María (habla conmigo) 14:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have several times done research such as that to get a gold star. My WP is much less than it use to be. In most cases, for architecture articles I have read books that had 4 or 5 pages on a building or structure that I was researching. I was able to add a few books in a few hours. In this case, we are talking about entire books devoted to the subject. Compared to some of my recent FAs such as Jay Pritzker Pavilion, Cloud Gate, Crown Fountain, or Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago) where I was able to improve the perceived quality of the WP article by looking at a few passages in architecture books, this would take an industrious effort that I am not up to. I could not imagine it would take me less than 50 hours to read the references that you mention. I do not have that much time for WP anymore.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not telling you to do anything, Tony. But now that you mention it, what's so wrong about reading books for the sake of a gold star? ;) The question is, does this article -- which relies solely on online news sources when there are seemingly reliable, published works available -- truly present a "representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic"? I obviously haven't read the books, or even the article in its entirety, but past FACs have been hit with such queries in the past. Because this is such an important article, and one that will continue to be scrutinized by many readers, the references should obviously be of the highest quality currently available. If the books in question are not worth the paper they're printed on, okay; but they should at least be assessed to find whether or not they can be of use. María (habla conmigo) 14:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can reformat the citations. However, if you are telling me that I have to read a couple of novels to advance this FAC, it is not going to happen. On many subjects there are far more references than are used in creating the article. Does this article appear to be lacking breadth, depth or WP:RS for the material that exists?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: Has a delegate approved this nom, bearing in mind the 15-day rule and that this nominator's 2008–09 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team was archived only on 6 April? Brianboulton (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I confess to not really reading the constantly revised rules with each nomination. If this nomination is suppose to be closed that is fine.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With no opinion on the merits of the article (which I haven't read in any detail), I'd say this is a clear candidate for WP:IAR. That rule is intended to prevent FAC from being clogged by mass nominations of poor quality articles into FAC by people who don't really understand what's required; Tony clearly doesn't fall into that category. – iridescent 00:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, that rule was put into place to stop editors from using FAC as a source of serial peer reviews, putting up a second nomination as soon as their previous nom was archived, clogging FAC and treating it as peer review, and regularly bringing back articles with little change as soon as the last nomination was archived. In fact, yes, this review needs to be closed, as the rule was put into place precisely for this purpose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:23, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With no opinion on the merits of the article (which I haven't read in any detail), I'd say this is a clear candidate for WP:IAR. That rule is intended to prevent FAC from being clogged by mass nominations of poor quality articles into FAC by people who don't really understand what's required; Tony clearly doesn't fall into that category. – iridescent 00:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I confess to not really reading the constantly revised rules with each nomination. If this nomination is suppose to be closed that is fine.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:59, 25 April 2010 [9].
Pepper v Hart
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it fulfils the relevant standards set. Ironholds (talk) 22:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I'm not sure that this is quite ready yet. Just looking at para 2
shouldn't it be "nine" and "one-fifth" instead of the numbers "9", "1/5th"?- 1/5th of the fees of a normal pupil. presumably means one-fifth of the normal fees for a pupil.
- Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment No dab links or broken links. Esuzu (talk • contribs) 23:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment If you can't be bothered to explain what this is about I can't be bothered to look and see. Johnbod (talk) 17:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Excuse me? Ironholds (talk) 16:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think Johnbod is requested that, in the future, you provide a brief explanation of the topic in the nomination statement. Doesn't make a big difference to me personally, but to others it might. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:33, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Excuse me? Ironholds (talk) 16:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- more comments
- one-fifth of the fees of a normal pupil. presumably means one-fifth of the normal fees for a pupil.
- The Court established the principle... the court Caps or lc?
- Lowercased
- not referencing Sheldon's statement meaningless in the lead
- expense in cases. Expenses?
- Vinelott J. why this format for only one judge?
- golden and mischief rules. the meaning of these isn't self-evident and wouldn't known by a layman, so a gloss for each would be appropriate to avoid most readers having to follow the link (for "mischief" I wasn't much wiser having done so
- sorry about delay in completing comments. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Quick comment – Unfortunately don't have much time for reviewing prose right now, but I was able to check out the reliability of the sources, which looks fine. I did notice that the four links in the notes all apparently go to the same page. Would it be possible to move the full citation to the References section, leaving abbreviated footnotes like the others? Or is it because there is no real author of the page, per se? Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you talking about the bailii reference? Ironholds (talk) 06:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's the one. Should have made that clearer. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you talking about the bailii reference? Ironholds (talk) 06:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Good work. A question: "In McDonnell, they further limited the use of Hansard, saying..." Who was limiting? Were Lords Bingham, Hope and Hutton, who undertook the Spath Holme judicial review case, all incidentally working on McDonnell? In other words, who is "they" Mootros (talk) 16:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: comprehensiveness concerns: Points that need to be covered
- When the hearing start? How many days was the case going on before the 5-memb. panel?
- Intermediate hearings (the article jumps to Judgment)
- Media coverage--Redtigerxyz Talk 16:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (Still good work) A question with regard to naming of cases, which I noticed on several instances here: E.g. "Wilson, the first case involving Hansard after the Human Rights Act 1998..." Do you mean Wilson and others v Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Appellant) [2003]? I think it is perfectly fine to use some common short form like Pepper, where this is clear in the text. Or was Wilson mentioned somewhere else in the text? Mootros (talk) 17:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:10, 27 April 2010 [10].
Central London Railway
It is 110 years this June/July since the opening of the Central London Railway (depending on which opening date is used). Despite early technical difficulties with its trains, the line was the most financially successful of the Edwardian tube lines and, today forms the backbone of the London Underground's Central line. If successful at FAC, I aim to nominate this for main page on one of the two opening date anniversaries. DavidCane (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments.
You have links to disambiguation pages Bridge rail and Hammersmith Station; no dead external links. Ucucha 14:09, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Thanks. The first has been fixed - it had been changed from a redirect to a disambiguation since I last checked. The second is intentional to indicate the three Hammersmith stations without linking to each separately. The link is not vital, and could be removed if this is thought to be inappropriate. DavidCane (talk) 17:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComments, leaning to support: another of the conscientious and thorough railway histories which are gradually covering the whole of London's Underground system. This looks to me like one of the best; the maps look particularly good this time. I have made a few tweaks while reading through and have the following generally minor points:-
- Lead: the first sentence of the third paragraph is unreasonably long and needs to be split into at least two parts.
- Origin 1889-92: "approximately £215 million today"; give a year, since "today" is a moving entity. I am, however, a little confused by the financial information given here. Can you clarify: is it that ECTL would receive £2,544,000 in money, and £700,000 in debenture stock, so that the total cost of construction to the syndicate was £3,244,000? (Also, "plus" does not read well in prose.)
- "today" is used because the {{Inflation}} template automatically uses the most recent data, so the displayed conversion will change gradually as time passes.
- Your interpretation is correct, although the £700,000 was the nominal face value of the debenture stock, which could go up or down, and it entitled the holder to dividends, so the true, upfront cost to the syndicate was probably closer to the £2.5 million.--DavidCane (talk) 01:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Construction 1896-1900
- "To prepare the design for the railway..." seems unnecessarily wordy, Why not "To design the railway..."
- "Delays on this work were so costly that it nearly bankrupted the company." Conflict between "Delays" (plural) and "it" (singular).
- "The elevations were faced in beige terracotta and each station had lifts manufactured by the Sprague Electric Company in New York" Inappropriate "and" conjunction between unrelated clauses.
- Rolling stock
- The parenthetical note "(syndicate member Darius Ogden Mills was a director)" should be "(of which syndicate member Darius Ogden Mills was a director)".
- "occupiers along the route" needs a bit of expansion, e.g. "occupiers of buildings above the route" or something similar.
That about covers the first third of the article. I will read on, make further comments, and look forward to supporting in due course. Brianboulton (talk) 22:46, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments:-
- Reversing loops: Reading "two alternatives" always causes a slight wince, since the word "alternative" means a choice between two. Better to say: "For the eastern loop the alternatives were..."
- Loop lines 1902-1905
- "At the southern end of Hammersmith Grove a station was to be provided on the corner of Brook Green Road (now Shepherd's Bush Road) to provide an interchange with the three stations already located there." This is not entirely clear - "the three stations already located there" - is this actually three stations, or three lines interconnecting at a single station (Hammersmith)?
- There were three stations on three separate lines: Hammersmith (L&SWR), Hammersmith (MDR) and Hammersmith (MR). I originally put in a link to the disambiguation link, but this was taken out as part of the discussion with Ucucha above. Note 49 provides more detail.--DavidCane (talk) 15:57, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a while since we heard what MDR means, so perhaps spell it out again? In this same paragraph and the one following, I wonder if such a detailed description of the new route - basically, mentioning the location of every station - is necessary, given that the information is shown in the adjacent chart. Would it be possible to reduce the text?
- No problem with the first.
- The images are really intended to illustrate the text. The problem with relying on the image to provide the information is those who, for whatever reason, cannot see the image, cannot see the information. Wikipedia:Accessibility#Images, seems to indicate that the detail should be in the text. --DavidCane (talk) 15:57, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "The MR opposed..." Again, it's a long time since MR was defined.
- "...seeing further competition to its services on the Inner Circle." This is first mention of "Inner Circle"; readers need to be told that this is a Tube line.
- "Questions were raised in Parliament about the safety of tunnelling so close to the vaults of many City banks and the risk that subsidence might cause vault doors to jam shut or undermine the foundations of the Dutch Church in Austin Friars." The church issues is separate from those raised in Parliament about the banks, so I would split: "Questions were raised in Parliament about the safety of tunnelling so close to the vaults of many City banks and the risk that subsidence might cause vault doors to jam shut. Another concern was the danger of undermining the foundations of the Dutch Church in Austin Friars."
- "In late 1902, the PC&NELR plans collapsed after a falling out between the scheme's promoters led a crucial part of the planned route coming under the control of a rival..." Dodgy grammar - should it be "led to..."?
- "At the southern end of Hammersmith Grove a station was to be provided on the corner of Brook Green Road (now Shepherd's Bush Road) to provide an interchange with the three stations already located there." This is not entirely clear - "the three stations already located there" - is this actually three stations, or three lines interconnecting at a single station (Hammersmith)?
- Wood Lane
- "In 1905 plans were announced by the government..." Passive voice, better as "In 1905 the government announced plans..."
- "...on which a new station close to the exhibition's entrance would be built." Name the station.
- Clumsy sentence needing reconstruction: "Construction work on the exhibition site had started in January 1907 and the exhibition, which also included that year's Olympics, and the new Wood Lane station opened on 14 May 1908." Too many assorted facts; "Olympics" should read "Olympic Games"; "and ... and" etc.
- Liverpool Street
- "the GER" I'd forgotten who they were, maybe spell it out?
- Confused prose: "Following their successful introduction..." etc. The sentence is too long, too many facts, and its construction is somewhat muddled. "Escalators" should be linked - and do stations "use" escalators? Passengers do, but perhaps in this instance "install" would be better.
- Ealing Broadway
- Richmond
- Ths captions to the maps should explain why the Richmond connection is shown in green.
- "...although the company made no attempt to carry out any of the work." Which company is this (two mentioned earlier in the sentence)? This section rather leaves things hanging in he air, since a line to Richmond was indeed built, though not by the CLR.
- Competition etc: "The co-operation between the CLR and UERL was taken a step further from 1 January 1913 when the UERL took over the CLR, swapping one of its own shares for each of the CLR's." This seems a rather casual way of describing the demise of the CLR as an entity. Also, describing a takeover as "taking co-operation a step further" is, well, odd. Would it not be appropriate to insert a short piece of text explaining that discussions towards a UERL-CLR takeover or merger had been proceeding, and that these were completed in January 1913, rather than the bald fact as stated?
- I have rephrased. Other than the fact that all of the companies were struggling, there is little on the background of the take-over. Wolmar indicates that the announcement of the take-over was made in November 1912 after a "series of secret talks", and Bruce & Croome simply say "...in late 1912 the Underground Group made offers to both companies." and that "Both groups of shareholders accepted, and both railways were formally taken over from 1st January 1913." I have clarified that the CLR continued as a separate entity although under the UERL umbrella. --DavidCane (talk) 15:57, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Improvements and integration
- "with those of the other lines" → "with those of its other lines"?
- Clarify whether the new Holden-designed entrance comment applies only to Bond Street
- Is the Holborn station referred to here the same one now known as Holborn (Kingsway)? When did the "Kingsway" get added to the name?
No comments on the last couple of sections. I have made several typo corrections and punctuation adjustments; a quick check-through for others might be worthwhile. Brianboulton (talk) 11:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Many thanks, as always. --DavidCane (talk) 15:57, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixes look good. It's a strong article, and I have moved to full support, noted above. Brianboulton (talk) 22:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, with my usual bunch of minor points:
- "The Central London Railway (CLR), also known as the Twopenny Tube, was a railway company…" – undoubtedly true, but generally in the article you're using CLR to refer to the route, not the company; as a reductio ad absurdum, consider "The Waterloo & City line is an administrative division of the London Underground, which operates a line…";
- The form of the opening sentence is exactly the same as for the FA articles on the CCE&HR, the GNP&BR and the BS&WR. It was arrived at during the FA on the first of these I think. The first use of "railway" is necessary as it is part of the name. The second use is strictly redundant but included because "railway company" is a common compound. The third use is necessary as part of "tube railway".
- I agree the CLR abbreviation has a dual usage, but I actually think I've used it more as a synonym of "the company" rather than to mean the route.--DavidCane (talk) 23:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know what you mean by "Among the [1901] committee's recommendations were […] that a line from Hammersmith to the City of London would benefit London's commuters", but I have the same books as you. I can guarantee that the reaction of most readers with a basic knowledge of the tube's history but not a detailed knowledge will be, "surely there were already two lines between Hammersmith and the City", given that one of the few Tube Facts Everyone Knows is "the Hammersmith & City Line is the oldest underground line in the world". (That and "Pimlico is the only tube station containing none of the letters of the word Badger".) Even though it will make the article longer, I think that section warrants an explanation of steam vs electric and relative journey times;
- The "Wood Lane, 1906–1908" section probably ought to mention the term White City; if people know the 1908 Exhibition at all, they almost certainly know it under that name;
- Any chance of slipping in a mention of the movable platform at Wood Lane? It's a genuine curiosity, and would liven up a necessarily dull section on the extension to Ealing;
- The moveable platform was not an original feature; it was added when the Gate stock was replaced with sliding door stock in the 1920s because the new side doors in the last car were beyond the end of the original platform. I've put a bit in the Improvements section where it fits chronologically. --DavidCane (talk) 23:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "In November 1912, the CLR announced plans for an extension from Shepherd's Bush on a new route, tunnelled south-westwards under Goldhawk Road, Stamford Brook Road and Bath Road to Chiswick Common where a turn to the south would take the tunnels under Turnham Green Terrace for a short distance before heading west again to continue under Chiswick High Road before coming to the surface east of the London and South Western Railway's (L&SWR's) Gunnersbury station." is a horribly long sentence; any chance of breaking it up?
- Saying the GN&PBR had a "parallel route to Hammersmith" is a bit misleading as they're only parallel for a short stretch west of South Kensington; how about "rival route"?
- Very minor point, but in 1933 LPTB switched to calling it "Central London Line" and no longer CLR; thanks to a Mr Beck's bright idea that year, it's possible to date the change in branding fairly precisely. Beck diagram #1 of 1933 still uses "Rly" but diagram #2 of later that year uses "Line". I appreciate Verifiability Not Truth and that the Times reference definitely says 1937, but the term was demonstrably already in official use four years earlier. – iridescent 20:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. --DavidCane (talk) 23:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "The Central London Railway (CLR), also known as the Twopenny Tube, was a railway company…" – undoubtedly true, but generally in the article you're using CLR to refer to the route, not the company; as a reductio ad absurdum, consider "The Waterloo & City line is an administrative division of the London Underground, which operates a line…";
Support on 1a.
- Prose is quite good. Image sizes: Rolling stock double, both rather too small. Can they not be centred and enlarged, or arranged vertically and enlarged? 1902 map too small for the text size. Some closing elements for year ranges are two digits; can they all be?
- I've moved the trains to a vertical alignment and made them larger.
- The 1902 map has been a bit of a trial. There are just too many station names to be able to make the text bigger, but I think it's important to have it at the same scale as all of the others, so I don't really want to make it larger than it is. As the station sites are listed in the text, I think that it's the shape of the loop that is most important in this image rather than the station names themselves.--DavidCane (talk) 22:31, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "lobbied the government for regulation of transport services in the London area"—generally, when there's an "of" to the right put a "the" (or "a" or plural with article-blank) to the left. But this one is OK: "On this date, ownership of the assets of the CLR". Tony (talk) 13:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This article is well wrote, impeccably referenced, and meets all the other FA criteria. My sole comment is stylistic. Right now you have your notes mixed with your citations. Generally when you have a significant number of notes, many editors will split them off into a separate section, like is done on War of the Bavarian Succession, for example. Battle of Corydon and Thomas R. Marshall also employ that type of system. You may consider implementing a similar method here. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:38, 8 April 2010 [11].
Quicksilver (novel)
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that this article, which I have been working on for a long time and got it up to GA status without any objection, and feel that it is one of the best examples of contemporary historical fiction and this article covers the scope of literary criticism on it. I wish to pursue the expansion of other parts of the Baroque Cycle and want to get the whole series up for a featured category nomination. It is my first nomination of this sort, but it is about time, I have been on WP:Novels for quite some time.Sadads (talk) 23:03, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really understand the need for File:NealStephenson_Quicksilver.jpg, could this be clarified Fasach Nua (talk) 23:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Its the first edition cover (most historically significant), per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Style_guidelines#Image, Sadads (talk) 23:47, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, that is a truly bazaar guideline, however I was thinking in terms of wp:nfcc criteria 8 Fasach Nua (talk) 04:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Its like a portrait picture of a person, it is the best way to identify the individual subject visually. It is also relevant to the publication, like movie posters. Sadads (talk) 04:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - invalid use of non-free content Fasach Nua (talk) 04:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Wait a minute See #1 at Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Images. It clearly is a valid use, per rational in last comment as well (use for identification of object being critically discussed). Sadads (talk) 04:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does the article discuss the cover itself in detail, as opposed to the contents of the book? If not, I can't see much justification to have the image. Ucucha 12:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, per the recommendations of both policy at Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Images and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Style_guidelines#Image, discussion of the cover itself need not be the focus, but instead discussion of what it represents (thus discussion of the Novel itself warrants it's most historically relevant cover). This has not been a problem for other FAs, all the modern literature under Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Literature_and_theatre has cover images and all the movies under Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Media have movie production posters. This is a non-issue. If you have problems with this policy, address it at a more community level discussion, not here. Sadads (talk) 15:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does the article discuss the cover itself in detail, as opposed to the contents of the book? If not, I can't see much justification to have the image. Ucucha 12:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Wait a minute See #1 at Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Images. It clearly is a valid use, per rational in last comment as well (use for identification of object being critically discussed). Sadads (talk) 04:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - invalid use of non-free content Fasach Nua (talk) 04:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Its like a portrait picture of a person, it is the best way to identify the individual subject visually. It is also relevant to the publication, like movie posters. Sadads (talk) 04:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, that is a truly bazaar guideline, however I was thinking in terms of wp:nfcc criteria 8 Fasach Nua (talk) 04:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: This should have gone through a Peer Review and copy-edit before coming directly to FAC, especially since this is a first nomination on your part, Sadads. The writing is poor and confusing in places; I'm not familiar with the novel, but I almost gave up halfway through the lead. A few examples from the top:
- It is the first volume of his The Baroque Cycle, a historical fiction series, succeeded by The Confusion and The System of the World (both 2004) -- "both 2004" what?
- Quicksilver is a volume split into three books in 2006 in order to make the 900 pages more approachable by readers -- "in 2006" what? It was split? Because the paragraph before says it was (initially?) published in 2003.
- Quicksilver is written in various narrative styles including drama and letter series and follows a large group of characters. -- "drama and letter series" sounds inexact and nonliterary. A novel written in letters is epistolary, is that what is meant?
- Throughout the novel many historical events such as the Great Plague of London, the Great Fire of London, the Edict of Fontainebleau, the Monmouth Rebellion, the Bloody Assizes, the Battle of Vienna and the Glorious Revolution, though many details, such as each member of what he calls the CABAL, have been changed. -- "[M]any historical events... though many details... have been changed." Huh? See what's missing here?
- "The plot of the first and third books focus on Daniel Waterhouse and his exploits as a young Natural Philosopher and friend to Isaac Newton and his observations of English politics and religion." -- and and and and.
I haven't gone beyond the lead at this point, but I obviously have doubts about the state of the rest of the article. I won't oppose at this point, but until a thorough copy-edit is done (preferably by more than one editor), this article does not fulfill the FA criteria. María (habla conmigo) 12:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I will fix those, previous reviewers and the reviewers for GA did not find any issues (I asked for additional input from multiple editors, and all give me a thumbs up) and I have been going back and cleaning up, so I thought it was relatively clear. But thank you for the direct input, working on a fix. Sadads (talk) 14:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid you're not done. I suggested you find someone else to copy-edit, and it's still necessary, as several of my points were not adequately addressed. Sometimes editors become too close to their writing and cannot see the glaring mistakes that exist in plain sight; that's where a non-involved editor comes in handy.
- Quicksilver is a volume split into three books in 2006 in order to make the 900 pages more approachable by readers. -- The "in 2006" is still thrown in there, confusing the prior fact that the book was initially published three years earlier. "In 2006, Quicksilver was split into three books in order to make the initial 900-page volume..." etc. Much clearer, yes?
- Quicksilver is written in various narrative styles, such as theatrical staging and epistolary, and follows a large group of characters. -- "theatrical staging" is not a narrative style, and such wording directly conflicts with "epistolary". Rather, the novel uses theatrical staging and is (at times?) epistolary. However this may be reworded (which is must be), depends on the rest of the sentence, which probably needs reworked no matter what.
- This sentence: "Throughout the novel many historical events such as the Great Plague of London, the Great Fire of London, the Edict of Fontainebleau, the Monmouth Rebellion, the Bloody Assizes, the Battle of Vienna and the Glorious Revolution, details, such as the members of the CABAL, have been changed" continues to make no sense. If I was not clear above, I apologize. "Throughout the novel many historical events" what? The thought is not finished. Many historical events such as blah blah blah... are detailed? Are represented? What?
- I shouldn't be seeing these issues in the lead section, as these concerns should have been addressed at an earlier stage; FAC is not a Peer Review, nor should it be treated as one. I don't have the time to go sentence-by-sentence, but there are issues throughout. A couple sentences down I see "He had also had heard considerable discussion" and this headache: "Because he was
both doingextensivelyhistoricalresearching historical events andthe development ofdeveloping a myriad of characters, he gained a considerable number of notebooksalong withand several piles of stationary upon which he composed the novelsupon." Or something. I'm not a master wordsmith, which is why I find that I need numerous expert eyes looking over my shoulder before I find the confidence to nominate at FAC, but you get my drift. This article needs help. FAC is serious business. Until things improve, I will have to Oppose. María (habla conmigo) 15:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid you're not done. I suggested you find someone else to copy-edit, and it's still necessary, as several of my points were not adequately addressed. Sometimes editors become too close to their writing and cannot see the glaring mistakes that exist in plain sight; that's where a non-involved editor comes in handy.
Addressing copy edit concerns: I have contacted several editors (new and old to the article page), asking for some support. Hope it will be timely, will address above issues of María's and continue my own reviewing of it. Sadads (talk) 19:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: On the issue of the lead image I agree with you. However, on the prose question I agree absolutely with Maria; this article needs some thorough attention, and here at FAC is not the appropriate place for this. Just a few examples of prose problems in the lead, apart from those raised by Maria:-
- Second sentence: "It is the first volume of his The Baroque Cycle, a historical fiction series, succeeded by The Confusion and The System of the World (both published in 2004)." This reads confusingly; "succeeded" is not the best word either. The sentence would be clearer as "It is the first volume of his historical fiction series The Baroque Cycle, and is followed by The Confusion and The System of the World (both published in 2004)."
- Second paragraph, first sentence: apart from the confusion mentioned by Maria, we have "in order", a form much deprecated in featured prose. "Approachable by" might be better as "accessible to" (but that's a personal preference).
- Next sentence: "These books were originally sections of the greater cycle during composition." It took me a while to work this out; is this significant information? Why does the reader need to know this?
- Why is "books" in quotes, and isn't something missing from "...set in the late 17th mostly in England..."?
- "a vagabond and former member of the Turkish harem" - should be "...and a former member..." Also, the Turkish harem" - was there only one?
- "landing in the Netherlands"? Not the best phrasing; perhaps "reaching the Netherlands"?
With so many errors or questionable phrases so early, it is clear that the article does not meet featured criterion 1(a). There is no doubt much good stuff in it, but time needs to be spent by one or more uninvolved editors with FA experience, to bring the prose to standard. I don't believe this can be done in the structure and timescale of FAC and would recommend a peer review. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:03, 25 April 2010 [12].
Bert T. Combs
The article's first FA nom got snagged on an image issue and a lack of comments for or against promotion. The image in question survived a deletion attempt, which I hope puts that issue to rest. Also, the article was recently promoted to GA with minimal issues raised. I hope to see it passed to FA on its second time around. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose The image was kept as it was "probably free", clarification is needed on the licensing used for this image, if it is not free I fail to see how this image would meet wp:nfcc Fasach Nua (talk) 23:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- C'mon. We've been over this. The image was kept because it is a valid fair use image, not because it was "probably free". All I said about its free-ness was that there is no author attribution, so it is possibly free, not probably free. No one has yet shown that there is a free alternative available, and I've indicated my willingness to replace the image should one come to light. I cannot prove that a free alternative doesn't exist, and you have yet to prove that one does. Until you do, I consider this oppose invalid. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The closing summary by the closing admin was "The result of the discussion was: Keep, general consensus is that this is probably in the public domain, and it appears that further attempts are being made to verify this situation.", I am content for other editors to interpret if you are correct it asserting "The image was kept because it is a valid fair use image, not because it was "probably free"" Fasach Nua (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, my contention from the start has been that it is valid fair use, not that it is free, since I have no data to prove or disprove that. I uploaded the image with a fair-use rationale from the get-go. The only reason I can think of that it wouldn't be fair use is if a free alternative existed, and none has been proven to exist yet. No idea where User:FloNight is on searching the collection at the University of Kentucky, but in the interim, I think the fair use claim should stand. What will it take for you to strike your oppose? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think I could ever support an article in an interim state, perhaps when the article is finished ... Fasach Nua (talk) 20:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Articles are never finished. And if your criteria for "finishing" an article includes somehow proving that no free image of an individual exists anywhere in the world, then only omniscient editors would ever be able to meet your criteria. I've made more than cursory attempts to find a free image, and I'll continue to be on the lookout for one, but it seems you won't be satisfied until or unless I actually find one, which may or may not be possible. I know that if it came down to it, I'd remove the image from the article before I'd make a special trip to Lexington to look for an image that may or may not exist. I don't really think that's in the interest of building a better encyclopedia, but I really don't want this to stand in the way of promoting the article again. I'm sure if I didn't find one in Lexington, you'd probably want me to go to DC and search the Library of Congress before you'd support this nomination. No thanks. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:30, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think I could ever support an article in an interim state, perhaps when the article is finished ... Fasach Nua (talk) 20:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, my contention from the start has been that it is valid fair use, not that it is free, since I have no data to prove or disprove that. I uploaded the image with a fair-use rationale from the get-go. The only reason I can think of that it wouldn't be fair use is if a free alternative existed, and none has been proven to exist yet. No idea where User:FloNight is on searching the collection at the University of Kentucky, but in the interim, I think the fair use claim should stand. What will it take for you to strike your oppose? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps this has been raised before, but there is a statue of Combs in Stanton KY (http://www.appalachianheritagealliance.org/bertcombs.html). If someone took a picture of that statue it could serve as an appropriate likeness.
- This would constitute a derived work of a copyrighted piece of art and would hence also be considered non-free Fasach Nua (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The closing summary by the closing admin was "The result of the discussion was: Keep, general consensus is that this is probably in the public domain, and it appears that further attempts are being made to verify this situation.", I am content for other editors to interpret if you are correct it asserting "The image was kept because it is a valid fair use image, not because it was "probably free"" Fasach Nua (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Seal_of_Kentucky.svg tagged as free, however the description seems to prohibit derived commercial works, and thus not free as far as wikipedia is concerned, can this be clarified? Fasach Nua (talk) 18:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You'd have to talk to the image author about that. I don't know much about it. I do know that file is used a pot load of places, though, so I would think that if it is to be deleted, it should be discussed somewhere other than here. Besides, that's part of the Kentucky governors template, so it's not like I can just remove it. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:24, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- An editorial decision was taken to include this template, and this image in this article, therefore it is a matter of consideration for the FAC, it may be worth dropping a line at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Kentucky or WP:PUI to clarify this if you are unsure Fasach Nua (talk)
- The template is a navigation aid, which is encouraged by Wikipedia. If the image, which doesn't materially contribute to the aid itself, isn't free use, then the discussion to remove it should be there, or via AfD, not here. I happen to know the image author a little, and I know he is around in spurts. he hasn't done anything here since early March, so I don't expect a timely response from him, especially not before this FAC closes. I will drop a note somewhere and see what I can discover, but I maintain that this is not the appropriate place for this discussion. As I said before, if consensus goes against the Combs image, I can drop that because this article is the only place it is used. The seal appears in many articles and should be discussed in a wider forum. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not a discussion to add or remove anything, those are editorial decisions. This is primarily a FA assessment, although we do generally try and give some direction to improving the article Fasach Nua (talk) 09:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The template is a navigation aid, which is encouraged by Wikipedia. If the image, which doesn't materially contribute to the aid itself, isn't free use, then the discussion to remove it should be there, or via AfD, not here. I happen to know the image author a little, and I know he is around in spurts. he hasn't done anything here since early March, so I don't expect a timely response from him, especially not before this FAC closes. I will drop a note somewhere and see what I can discover, but I maintain that this is not the appropriate place for this discussion. As I said before, if consensus goes against the Combs image, I can drop that because this article is the only place it is used. The seal appears in many articles and should be discussed in a wider forum. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- An editorial decision was taken to include this template, and this image in this article, therefore it is a matter of consideration for the FAC, it may be worth dropping a line at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Kentucky or WP:PUI to clarify this if you are unsure Fasach Nua (talk)
File:Kentucky_quarter,_reverse_side,_2001.jpg - The linked license on this image states "Designs of the new quarter-dollar coins issued under the 50 State Quarters Program may be derivative works of designs covered by third-party copyrights licensed to or assigned to the U.S. Mint, or in some cases may be covered by third-party copyrights assigned to the Mint. You should not assume anything on this site is necessarily in the public domain.", therefore on what basis is this considered to be devoid of copyright? Fasach Nua (talk) 09:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment No dab links or any broken links here.Esuzu (talk • contribs) 18:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- CommentWho? If you can't be bothered to explain who he is I can't be bothered to look and see. Johnbod (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure I understand this comment. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand it, either. Stonemason89 (talk) 20:39, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
- General
"This damaged Chandler's credibility and left Combs looking courageous and honest in the minds of the electorate." - thats a little POV, as the electorate is not uniform. This is also not fully supported by the info in the body. I'd cut off "in the minds of the electorate" from that sentence.- Done.
"The Combs family was one of the oldest in the United States.[2] John Combs, the family patriarch, arrived in Jamestown, Virginia aboard the Marigold a year before the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock.", this is not particularly relevant. You may consider shortening it.- A couple of different sources mentioned the Combs family being one of the oldest in the U.S., and I thought it would be nice to show just how old, but if you think it needs to go, I could chop it out and combine the first and second paragraphs in this section.
- I wouldn't remove it completely. Just pare it back to one sentence, and get the year in there instead of talking about the Mayflower, most people won't know how exactly long ago the Mayflower landed. (I am guessing 400 years ago) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I've trimmed it a bit. See how it reads now.
- I wouldn't remove it completely. Just pare it back to one sentence, and get the year in there instead of talking about the Mayflower, most people won't know how exactly long ago the Mayflower landed. (I am guessing 400 years ago) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A couple of different sources mentioned the Combs family being one of the oldest in the U.S., and I thought it would be nice to show just how old, but if you think it needs to go, I could chop it out and combine the first and second paragraphs in this section.
"In 1955, former governor and Democratic factional leader A.B. "Happy" Chandler announced", its not quite clear what is meant by "factional leader" here. If he was a leader of any faction of the party, he would be a party leader. If there was a defined faction in which he led, that faction should be named here. I'd suggest changing "factional" to "Party".- Most of the sources refer to the "Chandler faction" and the "Clements [later Combs] faction". I don't think it's really accurate to call them party leaders, because the two factions of the Democratic Party were the major political forces during that time. The Republicans weren't really much of a force at this time.
- It would be useful to explain this within the article. Just a sentence or two to explain that the state government was dominated by two factions of the Democratic Party. Nothing is necessarily wrong with using faction, so long as you introduce what the factions are, it won't be obvious to outsiders. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added this information. I don't want to get into a lot of the details regarding how the factions came to be, since it really dates back at least to an early 1930s fight between Governors Laffoon and Chandler. Explaining it fully would require the introduction of several new sources and take the article considerably off topic.
- It would be useful to explain this within the article. Just a sentence or two to explain that the state government was dominated by two factions of the Democratic Party. Nothing is necessarily wrong with using faction, so long as you introduce what the factions are, it won't be obvious to outsiders. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of the sources refer to the "Chandler faction" and the "Clements [later Combs] faction". I don't think it's really accurate to call them party leaders, because the two factions of the Democratic Party were the major political forces during that time. The Republicans weren't really much of a force at this time.
"...his ties to boss-dominated Logan County gave the faction pause", faction again. Its not clear what this faction is.- See above. Not sure what else to call it.
"Barred by the state constitution from seeking consecutive terms, Governor Chandler endorsed..." I believe Kentucky governors permitted to serve consecutive terms (at least nowadays). Perhaps you mean "...a third consecutive term..."?- Nope. Kentucky governors have only been able to serve consecutive terms since a constitutional amendment in 1992. (James Garrard somehow managed it in 1800, through a special provision I don't fully understand yet.) Four men served multiple non-consecutive terms – Chandler, Isaac Shelby, John L. Helm, and James B. McCreary.
- That explains it. I knew that Fletcher ran for reelection. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Nope. Kentucky governors have only been able to serve consecutive terms since a constitutional amendment in 1992. (James Garrard somehow managed it in 1800, through a special provision I don't fully understand yet.) Four men served multiple non-consecutive terms – Chandler, Isaac Shelby, John L. Helm, and James B. McCreary.
"Combs now turned the tables on Chandler by attacking his administration in the campaign against Waterfield." Its not obvious how the tables were turned? (This is also WP:JARGON.) It seems like his tactics were different from Chandler's. I suggest rephrasing this- Although I think the source used this same phrasing, your point is well-taken. I've reworded.
"The subject of the session was the revision of Kentucky's antiquated constitution.", you should probably point out who was calling the constitution antiquated. Since the measure was not approved, it couldn't have been the majority view.- Good point. Most of the state's leading legal minds were in agreement that the constitution was badly out of date, but the populace, obviously, was not convinced. I've deleted "antiquated" here, since the article later mentions the opinion of the legal scholars. (As a side note, fifty years later, we still haven't gone back and re-done the stupid thing, although we have made amendments to modernize it somewhat!)
- "As a result of the sales tax increase, Combs presided over the state's first billion-dollar budget.", in the preceding sentence the article explains that there was no prior sales tax. So, they could not have increased something that didn't exist prior. I'd suggest rephrasing.
- Let me go back and look at this. The state's first sales tax was enacted by Ruby Laffoon, Chandler's predecessor for his first term. Then Chandler abolished it during his first term, and I can't remember when it was re-instated. More on this later.
- Looking back, you're right. I think when I wrote this, I was thinking about the difference in the one percent tax that was actually needed and the three percent tax Combs got enacted. I've removed "increase".
"Combs also increased funding for free textbooks by more than $3 million and allocated another $2 million to vocational education.[31] He gave over $5 million to the state universities for new buildings and, ironically, another $10.5 million to fund completion of the Albert B. Chandler Hospital, a facility at the University of Kentucky named in honor of Combs' political foe." - Did combs himself grant these funds? I suspect he advocated for them, but it was the General Assembly which granted them, and he approved. Also, "ironically", should removed, see MOS:OPED- You are correct, but the practice in Combs' day was for the governor to propose a budget and submit it so late in the legislative session that the General Assembly would have to accept it with few changes or adjourn without passing a budget, necessitating a special session. That's why many who write about Kentucky's governors say the governor himself allocated the funds. This practice didn't change until the administration of John Y. Brown, Jr. in the late 1970s.
- This would be a useful explanation within the article. Maybe a sentence to explain that Combs (or his advisers) wrote the budget, but approval came from the assembly. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I did change the wording to make it clear that Combs proposed the budget. If I need to explicitly say the General Assembly approved it, I can probably find a source for that. I don't really want to go into much detail about the budget process, because this isn't really given much detailed treatment in the sources about Combs. It really didn't come to light until I started looking at sources about Governor Brown, and I don't want to drag those sources into this article.
- This would be a useful explanation within the article. Maybe a sentence to explain that Combs (or his advisers) wrote the budget, but approval came from the assembly. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You are correct, but the practice in Combs' day was for the governor to propose a budget and submit it so late in the legislative session that the General Assembly would have to accept it with few changes or adjourn without passing a budget, necessitating a special session. That's why many who write about Kentucky's governors say the governor himself allocated the funds. This practice didn't change until the administration of John Y. Brown, Jr. in the late 1970s.
"It was the only time in the 20th century that a Kentucky governor selected his successor and was able to get him elected." - Did Combs get his elected, or did the electorate get him elected? I suggest a rephrase here to something like "It was the only time in the 20th century that a Kentucky governor's selected successor won election."- Good suggestion. Done.
A link to the Kentucky portal would probably be useful- Where? This is not something I've done before, but I'm not opposed to it if it is wiki-convention.
- Usually it would go in a see also section, but since there isn't one here, you could probably drop it in the death and legacy section. {{portal:Kentucky}} (It is a featured portal by the way)
- I tried to add this, but it didn't seem to work. I was aware that it is a featured portal thanks to the work of our resident "portal penguin", Bedford.
- Bedford made the Indiana and Indianapolis portal too! He's been a little inactive lately. I am missing him. I put a portal in there myself. Take it out or move it if you don't think it works. 13:12, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- I tried to add this, but it didn't seem to work. I was aware that it is a featured portal thanks to the work of our resident "portal penguin", Bedford.
- Prose
"Combs returned to Kentucky and engaged in the practice of law." - maybe just "practiced law" instead of "engaged in"? According to the body, he was already a practicing lawyer before the war.- Corrected.
"His body was found in the Red River near Rosslyn, in Powell County, the following morning. His cause of death was listed as hypothermia." No need to say he died twice, how about "Having died of hypothermia, his body was found in the Red River near Rosslyn the following morning."- Reworded. See what you think.
"Also in 1937, he married Mabel Hall.", instead maybe, .."and the same year married..."- Done.
"He later explained the move from his hometown thusly..." "thusly" is not a word.- Hmm. I thought I'd heard it used before. Maybe it's one of those like "irregardless" that people think is a word but really isn't.
"...and that a sales tax might be considered", better as "should be considered"- Done.
- "
In addition, Bert T. Combs Lake, an artificial lake constructed in 1963 in Clay County, is also named after him.", "in addition" and "also" are redundant.- Done.
"Combs' widow, Sara Walter Combs, became the first woman to serve on the Kentucky Supreme Court in 1993 and currently sits as chief judge on the Kentucky Court of Appeals, also a first for a woman", according to the article, his wife while governor was Mabelle Hall. So his widow was not first lady, Mabelle Hall was first lady. Maybe I missed something there though.- My mistake, I read first woman and thought I had read first lady.
- Citations needed
"Some of Combs' crackdowns on corruption were politically damaging, and perhaps none more so than the so-called "truck deal". - You may also consider rewording this to remove the "perhaps none more so", which is what makes in need to be attributed- I've re-worded to hopefully eliminate the POV issue.
- References
Does "Combs Rose to Pinnacle From Plain Beginnings" have an author?- There is no by-line to the article. When I pulled it from Newsbank, it just said "Author: Knight-Ridder News Service"
- Its not clear what Ref #37 is pointing at as a source "Robinson in Kentucky's Governors, p. 199"
- It is from the book Kentucky's Governors. The book was edited by Lowell H. Harrison, but each chapter is separately signed by its author. In this case, the author of the Combs chapter is George William Robinson. I've added "in Kentucky's Governors" to distinguish it from the oral history by Robinson in the Further Reading Section. Kentucky's Governors is the penultimate source in the source list.
- Images
- File:Bert Combs.jpg - note: this non-free. Fair use rationale is acceptable
- Thanks for weighing in on that. As you can see above, I'm seeking community input on that.
The image of the flower clock has a forced size. This is discouraged by WP:IMAGE- I just don't feel like you can tell much about the image at its default size. Maybe its just my monitor. If it needs to be removed, I'll do so.
- The article could do with another image or two. Perhaps the Kentucky Statehouse or an image of Chandler?
- I agree it needs more images, but finding free images from this time period is difficult. There is already an image of Chandler, although it is when he was much younger than he would have been during the events described in this article. There are free images of the Kentucky State Capitol and the Kentucky Governor's Mansion, but I'm not sure how to word the caption to make them relevant to the text.
- I think any PD image of the statehouse would be fine. Caption could be something like "Kentucky State House", Its not much a leap to see its connection to the text, pretty well everything noteworthy he did occurred there. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree it needs more images, but finding free images from this time period is difficult. There is already an image of Chandler, although it is when he was much younger than he would have been during the events described in this article. There are free images of the Kentucky State Capitol and the Kentucky Governor's Mansion, but I'm not sure how to word the caption to make them relevant to the text.
- File:Bert Combs.jpg - note: this non-free. Fair use rationale is acceptable
- Prose is pretty good
- References check out
- Alt text present
Very interesting article! I enjoy reading about politicians. My issues are mostly nitpicks, but the prose is a little troublesome in spots and there a few inconsistencies in the information, all of which I have noted. If you can address them, I'd be glad to support this article. Great job so far! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed some of your points, but I'm out of time right now. I'll be back with more later. If you check this between now and then, please strike the ones where you are satisfied so I can keep track of what remains to be done. Thanks! Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Got some more, but I'm out of time again. I'll try to clear up the remaining issues in the next day or two. Thanks for your patience. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:30, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I think I've addressed everything now. Let me know if more work is needed. Thanks again for your patience, and I look forward to your eventual support. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I find the article a great read. The oppose above in regards to the image is not really relevant; its is clearly non-free based on its current licensing, but has an acceptable fair use rationale. I am neutral regarding the citations; there is not really a guideline that limits the use of citations, so I don't feel an oppose is warranted along that line. I do agree there are many unneeded citations though. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It's clear you've done a lot of research, but I believe this article is an example of overcitation. I know you've worked hard on this article, but every single sentence is followed by a citation. with this many citations, the article becomes very hard to read. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's looking better. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I always try to cite every sentence. It helps me know where facts came from if I end up moving them around. I've also never liked the "material that is likely to be challenged" criterion; it's too subjective. How am I to know what someone is likely to challenge? Sometimes I get this comment about overcitation, though. I've combined references to the paragraph level where it is possible to do so. If you have further suggestions for reducing the number of citations, please feel free to leave them here. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In the first paragraph in the body of the text, you have three sentences: "The Combs family was one of the oldest in the United States.[2] John Combs, the family patriarch, arrived in Jamestown, Virginia in 1619, and in 1775, Benjamin John Combs came westward from Virginia into Clark County, Kentucky.[2] He was followed into Kentucky in 1790 by two of his brothers, including Jack Combs, Bert Combs' great-grandfather.[2]" These sentences are all supported by the same source; I've often been told to cite at the end of the material. The paragraph would become: "The Combs family was one of the oldest in the United States. John Combs, the family patriarch, arrived in Jamestown, Virginia in 1619, and in 1775, Benjamin John Combs came westward from Virginia into Clark County, Kentucky. He was followed into Kentucky in 1790 by two of his brothers, including Jack Combs, Bert Combs' great-grandfather.[2]" Firsfron of Ronchester 13:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The paragraph you mention above contains two other sentences that are cited to a different source. I never group citations unless the entire paragraph can be cited to the same source. Even at that, I have people then challenge something in the paragraph as uncited because they don't recognize that the citation is at the end of the paragraph. If it is all right with you, I'd prefer to leave the citations as they are for now. Many of my other articles have passed GA and FA reviews with every-sentence citations. Some reviewers have even told me they prefer that. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 11:54, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In the first paragraph in the body of the text, you have three sentences: "The Combs family was one of the oldest in the United States.[2] John Combs, the family patriarch, arrived in Jamestown, Virginia in 1619, and in 1775, Benjamin John Combs came westward from Virginia into Clark County, Kentucky.[2] He was followed into Kentucky in 1790 by two of his brothers, including Jack Combs, Bert Combs' great-grandfather.[2]" These sentences are all supported by the same source; I've often been told to cite at the end of the material. The paragraph would become: "The Combs family was one of the oldest in the United States. John Combs, the family patriarch, arrived in Jamestown, Virginia in 1619, and in 1775, Benjamin John Combs came westward from Virginia into Clark County, Kentucky. He was followed into Kentucky in 1790 by two of his brothers, including Jack Combs, Bert Combs' great-grandfather.[2]" Firsfron of Ronchester 13:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I support ACdixon's approach to referencing. Occasional citations / at end of para is not suitable to a wiki, where anyone can move text around. I usually oppose noms that don't cite more regularly, esp. if there is a wide range of facts in the para. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:57, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been doing FACs since 2006 and have never seen this citation "style" used. Further, an article you nominated for FAC, Bronwyn Bancroft, either has uncited material or cites material at the end of the paragraph. For example, from that article: "In 2004 Bancroft was commissioned to design a large mural covering the exterior of a sports centre housing two basketball courts at Tempe Reserve in Marrickville, New South Wales. The mural depicts a snake, a man, and a woman, representing both biblical and Indigenous Australian creation stories. It also includes the goanna, ancestral totem of the Marrickville area's original inhabitants, the Wangal people.[11]" (One paragraph, one citation). Adding a citation for every single sentence will not prevent material from being moved around by other editors. It just makes the text unreadable. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:52, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- <scratches head> what is it about this style you've never seen before? There are a few variations around (using - or not - the year in the footnote cite for instance), but the basic pattern seems to me common enough: The Open Boat, Catholic Church, Funerary art, to give a few examples i've been watching / commenting on in recent times. I don't mind one ref after a few sentences, provided (a) all those sentences are about the same matter and (b) there are no intervening other references. Hence my one cite at the end of the sentences about Bancroft's Marrickville commission. To take another example, from the same article, you find "Bancroft was a founding member of the Boomalli Aboriginal Artists Co-operative,[2] one of Australia's oldest Indigenous-run artists' organisations,[7] established in 1987.[8] She served in the roles of chairperson, director, and treasurer during its first two decades.[5][1] In 1985 she opened a shop in Sydney called Designer Aboriginals, selling the work of Indigenous designers including her own fabrics,[2] and staffed by her Indigenous female students.[6]" Ref 2 is used twice, but other refs are relied upon in between, and the subject matter is more heterogenous, thus the closer citation, and repetition of [2]. I thought Bert Combs was OK - if it were me, i would have just one cite for "On December 22, 1943, Combs enlisted as a private in the U.S. Army for service in World War II.[8] He received his basic training at Fort Knox.[8] Early in his military career, he was assigned to teach cartography at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in Aberdeen, Maryland.[8]", but i certainly wouldn't see it as a FAC issue. But then again, in terms of readability, I guess it's a personal thing, as i don't find the footnote numbers trouble me anyway. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see AC has combined a few citations.
- More comments:
"Bert Combs was born in the Town Branch section of Manchester, Kentucky on August 13, 1911."
Is this a section or a neighborhood? Kentucky doesn't have sections as I'm used to thinking of them. (This comment may be pedantry; feel free to ignore it)- Honestly, I don't know, having never been to Manchester. I lifted this straight from the source on the chance that it would be significant to someone who knew more about the town that I did.
"Some of Combs' crackdowns on corruption were politically damaging, and including the so-called "truck deal"
Either "Some of Combs' crackdowns on corruption were politically damaging, including the so-called "truck deal"" or "Some of Combs' crackdowns on corruption were politically damaging, and included the so-called "truck deal" is correct.- Well, I botched that one good and proper, huh? As you can see above, I needed to remove some POV from that sentence, and I was apparently a little careless about doing so. Fixed now.
"The deal was seen by some as a political payoff orchestrated by Highway Commissioner Clements.[25]"
Does the source give an example of who thought this? If so, you might want to explain. If not, there's not much you can do here. :)- Well, a newspaper first reported the facts of the event, but public reaction was mixed. From Harrison's A New History of Kentucky: "Some argued that 'the truck deal' problem would have been caught and corrected through the review process; others said that it was a political payoff and that Clements had been trying to0 carry it out for others; some indicated it was a Clements deal, pure and simple." Given this, I'd say it would be tought to pin down a prevailing opinion among any particular group. What seems to be important is that Combs eventually acted as though he believed there was something untoward going on, causing the split between him and Clements.
- Why does the Kentucky portal template appear in the main body of the text? The proper place is in a 'see also' section, or failing that, in some other appropriate section near the bottom.
- As you can see above, this addition was suggested by Charles Edward. I'm not expert on what is and is not convention with regard to that; you may move it, remove it, or do something else with it and incur no objection from me.
- Overall, the quality of this article is very high. I found that I could nitpick very little of the article's prose. I don't have access to some of the reference material, but what I checked, checked out. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review. I hope I can eventually gain your support despite our differences over citation style. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 11:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I am working through the article, copyediting, and I think the prose does need improvement. As a result I am not ready to support yet. I don't want to oppose just yet either; most of what I'm seeing is fixable, and I'm leaving some queries on the article's talk page. I will try to finish the copyedit tomorrow. I will also note that the image oppose above doesn't seem valid to me, though I'm not an image expert; I think the image has a reasonable fair use justification.
- I found this source: Bert Combs the politician: an oral history by George William Robinson. A lot of what's in here may be primary source material and not very usable, but I'd think some opinions could be used. In addition the Google Books view shows an introduction with some history that could be useful; e.g. it says where Combs met Mabel Hall, and describes the steps by which Combs decided to go into politics after the war. Can you comment on whether you've used this source?
- Another source: The public papers of Governor Bert T. Combs, 1959-1963, Volume 1959. Google Books gives this snippet, for example: "The same year he married Mabel Hall, a pretty former cheerleader whose family..." and this: "left no possibility of doubt that Bert Combs was from deep in the hills." Sounds like this might be usable. Google Books shows some other biographical material too; I won't list any more but of course the concern is that the article might not meet the comprehensiveness criterion if some of these sources have been omitted without review.
Update: I've now finished going through the article and have posted notes to the talk page. My main concerns at the moment would be comprehensiveness and some prose choppiness. The latter can probably be dealt with after the talk page notes are responded to, but I'd like to hear from the nominator about the issue of sources. -- Mike Christie (talk) 14:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:10, 27 April 2010 [13].
War of the Bavarian Succession
- Nominator(s): Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A war without battles, but with thousands of casualties. Read on! Another wikigap. I've also combined notes and citations in one section. The first time a source is cited, I've included the full citation; subsequently, I've used a shortened version. If the same source and page are cited sequentially, I've used the named templates. As always, I look forward to your comments. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: (all v. minor)
- Caption for "Charles II August, Duke of Zweibrücken": "Prussi", missing an "a" on the end.
- Thanks. fixed.
- "Nauendorf captured its officers, 110 men, 476 horses, 240 wagons of flour, and 13 transport wagons, which were subsequently burned" - unclear whether the wagons of flour and the transport wagons were burned, or just the latter. I'd assumed the latter, but the next bit made me think I might be wrong. (I'm really hoping that the officers and men weren't!)
- Probably if it included the officers and men, the text would have said "who were burned but I've removed the bit a bout the wagons and flour, because I'm not sure from the source if the wagons were burned or the flour and the wagons. Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Gaston Bodart, in his analysis of Austrian casualties, is more specific: Five Austrian generals..." Is it right to follow the colon with a capital letter? (NB: I'm unsure, but it looked odd.)
- As I understand the rule, if the bit after the colon is a full sentence, it's capitalized. In the next usage, the bit after the colon is a list, and not capitalized.
- "Habsburg lands could be carved off the empire by a Catherine's diplomatic knife" The "a" is probably a typo.
- yes a typo. Fixed. Thanks very much for reading! Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As you say, a really interesting war!
Hchc2009 (talk) 06:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I'm happy with the changes made, and although not a specialist on the sources, I'd say that the balance of old and new, combined with the further reading, looks respectable. I'd support on that basis.
Hchc2009 (talk) 17:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning OpposeI really like the article. My problem here is with the sources, many of which are seriously out of date. Citing figures like Henderson and Carlyle (!) when there is much more modern scholarship on the topic seems out of place. Can the article not include more standard reference material? Eusebeus (talk) 08:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I understand your problems with the old sources. Gaston Bodart is also "elderly" but it is still a standard of the literature on 18th century military losses. The point of including Henderson and Carlyle with Berenger and Blanning is to point out that the topic has been of interest (albeit minor) for a long time. Carlyle's discussion is quite colorful, far moreso than anyone else's, and an advantage of the old sources is they include lots of family/genealogical details that the newer sources omit. I've added some new sources to replace some of the old ones. It makes the citations and bibliography more complicated, but... Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Opposefor now, changed to Neutral (see below). The prose needs going over; at the moment it veers alarmingly in places between nob-squad pomposity ("A second concern revolved around the Imperial dignities") and modern slang ("Two key hold-outs", "rookie"). Germanic? word order etc evident in places - "the Bavaria" etc. "a generation of peace and relative prosperity that began with his ascension and ended with his death.[7]" - try "accession". There's a spelling mistake in the first para "maneuvered", and plenty more later. Punctuation:"This kind of action characterized the entire war; there were no major battles, but instead, the war consisted of a series...." etc. In general I felt the prose did not read well. The elderly sources may contribute to the problem. Johnbod (talk) 03:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll go over the prose again, but I've got to point out that "rookie" is not a new word at all...If you read Maria Theresa's note, which is in the footnote, you'll see that is the word she used. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- She was writing in American English? You'd better tell the OED; they think the word is first recorded in 1892. Johnbod (talk) 01:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hardly. ;) "On dit que vous avez été si content de Nauendorf, d’un recrue Carlstätter ou hongrois qui a tué sept hommes, que vous lui avez donné douze ducats;..." recrue=Neuling . It's been in the German language for, oh, since the Grimm brothers wrote their dictionary. Goethe used it, Lessing, etc., and it predates them, according to the Grimm. I've asked a French speaker for a second opinion. Perhaps you would prefer the word neophyte? or novitius? homo novus rookie was the best word I could come up with in English. I'm happy to use something more nob-squaddish, if you'd prefer. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- She was writing in American English? You'd better tell the OED; they think the word is first recorded in 1892. Johnbod (talk) 01:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a chart on the talk page that describes the sources, and content. See if you think it is still unbalanced to the old sources? Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Denobbing and sources. I've "denobbed" the text. Long sentences are broken up. I disagree on the use of ascend, but I've taken it out because I'm not falling on the sword over it. Also, see the talk page re balance of old and new sources, and also a list of additional sources. Most of the discussion of this war occurred in the 1780s. By the early 1800s, the big discussions had petered out in the face of the Napoleonic Wars, which seemed to preoccupy people's imagination more. There continued to be some literature in the 19th century, but very little until Oscar Criste's work in early 1900. After that, a hiatus until the 1970s–1980s. There is a thesis on Charles Theodore and the war, but it had a very small press run (Edwin Mellen Press), and is hard to find. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll go over the prose again, but I've got to point out that "rookie" is not a new word at all...If you read Maria Theresa's note, which is in the footnote, you'll see that is the word she used. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: The article uses US spelling, and "maneuvered" is correct. I am not offended by "rookie" in this context: 1892 is not yesterday, and we are quoting from a private letter. "Recruit" does not work, because Nauendorf was an officer in his thirties by then. I suppose we could use "tyro", which is an older word for rookie. It has been around since 1611. It's a lot rarer than "rookie" though today. (By the way, "ascension" was fine.) --JN466 06:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps its a US/UK thing, but you will see the same search with "accession" produces over 4 times as many, and the "ascension"s seem mostly from the ancient world or East Asia. You could use "recruit" in inverted commas perhaps. Johnbod (talk) 22:06, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the ascension/accession thing entirely (reworded the sentence) so it is no longer an issue. The translation seems fine. If I use the word novice, it's too conventual, if tyro, it's too obscure. Recruit is the wrong word, in the context, and recrue does mean "rookie". Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:06, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps its a US/UK thing, but you will see the same search with "accession" produces over 4 times as many, and the "ascension"s seem mostly from the ancient world or East Asia. You could use "recruit" in inverted commas perhaps. Johnbod (talk) 22:06, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to neutral on this as the prose is still too jumpy and convoluted to support - look at the first two paragraphs of the "background" section for example. This is not well explained. If the war was really the last old-style 18th century war, as it says at the end, isn't this worth mentioning in the lead? Johnbod (talk) 13:16, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a good point. I had not noticed it, and I added a bit to the lead to address this issue. Thanks for bringing that up. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: On the question of sources, raised above: I can make no comment on reliability, but speaking from an outside (non Milhist) perspective, it does not seem to me that the use of ancient sources has necessarily been excessive. About three-quarters of 80 citations to English-language sources are to modern (post-1970) sources. Unless essential modern texts have been omitted, or the information cited to the older sources is proven to be outdated or discredited, this seems defensible. I have frequently mixed old and new sources in my own articles, and of course the newer sources are often themselves dependent on the older. On a very trivial point, ref [58] requires a page number. Brianboulton (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Brian. For the sake of disclosure, I asked Brian if he would take a look, as non military history person, and see what he thought of the sources. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'll do a copy-edit.
- "Joseph, who co-ruled with his mother Empress Maria Theresa, considered the Bavarian territory as a plum that would enhance the wealth, prestige and power of the family." I wouldn't use "plum" here, as this makes it appear as though Bavaria had been the eponymous plum in the "plum fuss". This is not so; the sources I have seen attribute the name "plum fuss" to the fact that the soldiers had to live off the land – plums formed a significant part of their diet. --JN466 06:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, JN. I've fixed this. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- his wife, Maria Amalia, was the sister of Charles VI's and Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor, and daughter of Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor. Could you double-check this? According to Maria_Amalia_of_Austria, she was Joseph's daughter. --JN466 18:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Max Joseph's mother was Maria Amalia of Austria, but not the Maria Amalia that Charles August wanted to marry. MJ's sister married the elector of Saxony, and MJ married the elector of Saxony's sister. Charles II August married the daughter of Max Joseph's sister (who had married the elector of Saxony), and the sister of the current elector, who was MJ's nephew. His brother in law had died after only a few months' reign and ... well that's too complicated. Max Joseph's sister was Charles August's mother in law. Try looking here, at D4. I don't think the wikiarticle is correct. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is this where a note would come in handy? One that isn't in the footnotes? Let me know, and I'll write it ( but I'll need help with coding, because I don't know how to make a separate set of notes). Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:05, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- <groan> There's too many Josephs, Charleses and Marias here. <groan again, more deeply> I had a look on German WP: [14], [15], [16]. Also here: "Karl Albrecht, Kurfürst von Bayern, 1742 (als Karl VII.) röm.-deutscher Kaiser ... vermählt 1722 mit Maria Amalia von Österreich (1701–1756), Tochter von Kaiser Joseph I. --JN466 20:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is this where a note would come in handy? One that isn't in the footnotes? Let me know, and I'll write it ( but I'll need help with coding, because I don't know how to make a separate set of notes). Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:05, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- see talk page. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I've finally finished that proofread and copyedit. One sentence we might still want to fix: According to the 3 January agreement between Joseph and Charles Theodore, 15,000 Austrian troops occupied Mindelheim, ultimately more territory than the convention had granted. We are talking about a "convention" and an "agreement"; if they are the same, that could be made clearer. Otherwise – a comprehensive and well-written article bringing European history of 200+ years ago to life. --JN466 21:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I changed that. Thanks very much for your efforts, JN. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Query: have you pinged the previous opposers? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, last night and this a.m. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Two have since responded with supports. I'm waiting on Johnbod. He hasn't listed other issues, so I don't know if he's satisfied, or has more. JN is still planning to do a copy edit if he gets to it. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:47, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments
Made a few tweaks, but I'm curious about the lack of capitalization of French noble titles, i.e. duc, etc. When I see these used in English-language works they're always capitalized, perhaps by parallel treatment with English noble titles. But how are they rendered in French-language works?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I used the same capitalization and wording as the source on the titles. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:08, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support article has improved recently. Ucucha 01:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC) Comments[reply]
"By the terms of the 1650 Peace of Westphalia"—not 1648?It looks odd to refer to France as "she" and Prussia as "it".- "was instead a mésalliance"—a what?
Ucucha 22:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- it was a bunch of treaties, but I did change the date to 1648. Changed France from she to it. Misalliance. Or Mismarriage. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you should explain that to the unsuspecting reader.
- it was a bunch of treaties, but I did change the date to 1648. Changed France from she to it. Misalliance. Or Mismarriage. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"According to the 3 January agreement"—this agreement has not been introduced.I added a citation-needed tag to a paragraph at the end of the article.I think the article should make more clear that Charles Thedore eventually did keep Bavaria.- I can certainly see Johnbod's concern about the prose. I think I improved it a bit, but another pair of eyes wouldn't hurt.
"Jens-Florian Ebert. "Nauendorf, Friedrich August Graf." Die Österreichischen Generäle 1792–1815. Accessed 15 October 2009"—should this have an external link?- Sources all seem reliable. Images:
File:MaximilianIII.jpg, File:Karl_III._August_Christian_(Pfalz-Birkenfeld-Zweibrücken).jpg need authors and approximate dates.
Ucucha 23:08, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- no artists on those portraits. JN will be back tomorrow re prose. At this point, I have it memorized. Added citation where it was needed, and added a link. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment'. The way the referencing/citations are done looks really strange; each published source ends up being listed twice, once in Citations and then again in Bibliography, but why? Also, author names are given firstname lastname in Citations, but lastname firstname in Bibliography. I don't like that at all. I'll take a closer look at the article later today or tomorrow. Malleus Fatuorum 17:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This is consistent throughout the article. the first time the source is mentioned, I use the full citation, first name, last name, etc. After that I abbreviate the ref. The full citation appears in the bibliography, in bibliographic format. See here. the only thing I do differently from this is periods instead of commas because reviewers go postal if I don't. So, you may not like it, but this is what I do. See also Citations and reliability. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not entirely happy with some of the prose, for instance "Simultaneous to Charles' coronation in Frankfurt, though, his Bavarian capital city of Munich capitulated to the Austrians to avoid being plundered by Maria Theresa's troops". Malleus Fatuorum 17:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Neither am I convinced by some of the captions (I'll say nothing of the alt text). For instance, File:Kurfürst Karl Theodor (Bayern).jpg has as its caption "Charles IV Theodore, the legal heir, needed unencumbered territory that he could bequeath to his illegitimate children", but is that actually a painting of Charles IV Theodore, or of someone else? The general story of Charles' intentions ought to be included in the article, not put into a caption. The caption should be telling me something about the image. Malleus Fatuorum 17:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The general story of CT's intentions is in the article. I disagree on the images: I see them as a another way of telling the story, otherwise, why include them? So I use captions to reinforce the text. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then I'm afraid that I'm likely to end up opposing this article's promotion. Malleus Fatuorum 18:06, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- That is, of course, your right to do, although an editor's chosen citation/bibliographic style is not actionable. As for captions, I've done them in this way since Unification of Germany last June (July?), and you've not said anything yet. Is this a recent antipathy you've developed on captions? Or have you just not noticed? Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't recall looking at any of your other nominations, but let me encourage you to try and keep personal animosity out of this discussion. Malleus Fatuorum 18:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- well that explains why it hasn't come up before. I wasn't aware that animosity had crept into my tone of voice, and I certainly apologize for that. I suspect that most people will tell you I'm a mellow person and often a voice of reason in contentious discussions. As for captions, I don't see the point of including lots of pictures of dead white men just for the sake of including lots of pictures of dead white men. Much better to include pictures that enhance/tell the story. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't recall looking at any of your other nominations, but let me encourage you to try and keep personal animosity out of this discussion. Malleus Fatuorum 18:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That is, of course, your right to do, although an editor's chosen citation/bibliographic style is not actionable. As for captions, I've done them in this way since Unification of Germany last June (July?), and you've not said anything yet. Is this a recent antipathy you've developed on captions? Or have you just not noticed? Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Would you like me to list the prose problems here, or on the talk page? For instance, would you not agree that at best "In the course of his career, Charles Theodore had acquired a celebrated secretary with the Florentine noble, Cosimo Alessandro Collini (1727–1806), who had been Voltaire's secretary" is ambiguous? Malleus Fatuorum 18:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- article talk page? Sure and I'd be grateful for your help on the prose. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Review by MisterBee1966
- I think the article would benefit from a brief opening statement telling the reader what this was all about. I therefore had a look at the German version and translated its lead (sorry for my English) "Was caused by the Austrian entitlement (claim?) on Lower Bavaria and Upper Palatinate after the Bavarian line of the House of Wittelsbach deceased in 1777. The consequence was that the Duchy of Bavaria should have transferred to the palatinate line. It is the last of the Kabinettskriege of the Early modern period." MisterBee1966 (talk) 19:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Added bits here and there in the lead. See if that works for you. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- yes better
- Added bits here and there in the lead. See if that works for you. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "...and when Russia did not, the Hasburgs lost" what is Hasburg? Should it be Habsburg? Look for two occurences of Hasburg MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:43, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- link "Status quo" MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:45, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- link "vis-a-vis" MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:46, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- THANKS! done. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:16, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- section "Change in warfare". I like how in the previous section you motivated the cost Prussia had with 33 million florins and Austria with 65 million florins by comparison to the annual revenue of 50 million florins. In the section "Change in warfare" I am a bit lost. First you introduced the Reichsthaler without telling me what the conversion rate is. Second, the sentence "After the Seven Years War, the Habsburg military also shrank, from 201,311 in 1761 to 163,613 in 1775. In preparing for a second summer's campaign, Joseph's army grew from the 195,108 effectives of the summer 1778 to 308,555 in Spring 1779." The numbers mentioned here are those expenditures or men in arms? It is unclear to me. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've clarified it. Men in arms. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:00, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- support very nice article. A lot of work went into this. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:52, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- rechecked citations for consistency. These seem okay to me. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:16, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Second sentence: "The war had no battles and only a few minor skirmishes, but several thousand casualties from disease and starvation." The final clause links with which bit? "had ..."? It's a bit of a jolt, and to "have" casualties is odd. Needs another verb here.
- Opposite issue: "Charles IV Theodore, a scion of a senior branch of the House of Wittelsbach, held the closest claim of kinship, but he also had no legitimate children, only illegitimate ones." Remove "he also?
- "Other states became involved to maintain the balance of power, a goal similar to that of the earlier War of the Austrian Succession in the 1740s and the Seven Years War that followed it." Can a war have a single goal? Isn't a war fought by opposing sides?
- Instead of the not-well-known word "suzerainty" (which has to be linked for us), is there a plainer, more common word?
- "and could block, or at least impede, Francis's election"—either? The "at least" is vague for me. So you mean they could block, but could just impede if they wished? Unclear distinction between ultimate power and possible behaviour. "and could impede or even block"?
- "became moot: He left"—h?
- "to succeed him and several ambitious men prepared to carve his patrimony into pieces, as they had tried to do in 1741 to Maria Theresa's."—comma after "him"? Did Therasa have patrimony? Or is it her pieces that back-refers to?
Do audit the whole thing for long sentences where the last clause doesn't flow properly from the foregoing part of the sentence. This is a repeated pattern thus far. Tony (talk) 03:44, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Have gone through the whole thing again and tried to make sentences shorter, and less complicated see if this works. `Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - The long snaking sentences make this a tedious read. These three for example:
- Some historians maintain the active negotiator was Max Joseph's widow, Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony, others assert it was not Max Joseph's widow but Max Joseph's sister, who was also Charles August's mother-in-law, Maria Antonia, the widow of the previous Elector Saxony, and mother of the reigning Elector.
- Although Charles August, sometimes called duc de Deux-Ponts (a French translation of Zweibrücken, or two bridges), was a French client, he had especially good relations with the Saxon Electors: Charles August's mother- and brother-in-law wanted to ensure that Maria Amalia's husband received his rightful inheritance.
- When it became clear that other monarchs of Europe were not going to acquiesce to a de facto partition of Bavaria, Joseph and his foreign minister, Anton, Count von Kaunitz, scoured the Habsburg realm for troops and concentrated 600 guns and an 180,000–190,000-man Austrian army in Bohemia, Moravia, and Austrian Silesia: this army amounted to most of Austria's 200,000 effectives, leaving much of the border regions with the Ottoman Empire under-guarded.
This is not engaging prose IMHO. Graham Colm (talk) 18:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've shortened a lot more sentences this afternoon. JN and I have both scoured this article for my usual prose problems in the past week. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I wonder if we should drop the sentence "During the visit, he had enticed Voltaire's secretary, the Florentine noble, Cosimo Alessandro Collini (1727–1806), into his own employment.", given that the reference to Collini has now gone from the Carlyle quote and Collini doesn't turn up anywhere else in the article. --JN466 09:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I added a phrase giving it more context. It was a coup for the duke to get this man as his secretary. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
This is a very interesting article. I read it a couple weeks ago when it was first listed here and almost reviewed it then. I am well read on this topic and am pleased to inform you it is very comprehensive! I do a have a few comments though:
- Internal link for "gout"?
- done
- Citations needed (these should be easy to find, if not let me know, I can dig them out of my library)
- "As the Duke of Bavaria, Max Joseph was the prince of one of the largest states in the German-speaking portion of the Holy Roman Empire."
- that was pretty well cited already, but I added more. Same below
- "As a Prince-elector, he stood in the highest social category of the Empire, with broad legal, economic, and juridical rights."
- "The House of Habsburg-Lorraine needed a wider sphere of influence in the German-speaking parts of the Holy Roman Empire."
- ditto, but I added more
- "The diplomatic realignment in 1756 had tied French foreign policy in Central Europe to Vienna; despite this restructuring, there existed at Versailles, and in France generally, a strong anti-Austrian sentiment."
- that is cited to Berenger. I can add more but I don't think it's necessary. Blanning, Okey, Simms, etc.
- I added a cite to Blanning. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "When his small force encountered Wunsch's, which was more than triple its size, Nauendorf greeted the Prussians as friends;"
- that was cited at the end of the next sentence. I duplicated the ref, but that seems ridiculous, since now they are the same ref at the end of two sentences. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- References are excellent
- Prose if engaging
- Images check out
- Alt text present
Bravo! If you can get those citations I'd be glad to support. Great job on this article. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 19:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Another fine article for the encyclopedia. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your comments and support. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [17].
The Open Boat
Stephen Crane was only 25-years old when his steamship, the SS Commodore, sank off the coast of Florida. The correspondent survived thirty hours huddled together with three other men on a 10-foot dinghy; one of them didn't make it. Out of this harrowing experience came one of the best American short stories ever written, "The Open Boat". It's a relatively short article, but comprehensive and (I hope) an interesting read. It was promoted to GA last month and recently went through a Peer Review. As this is my first attempt to bring a work of literature to FA, and several others may follow, any and all comments/suggestions are welcome. Thanks! María (habla conmigo) 14:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 14:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support by Ruhrfisch, with a few comments. Very interesting and well done article - I have a few comments, which do not detract from my support.
WP:LEAD strongly suggests that direct quotations in the lead should have a reference.- Should this be "leaving" instead of "leading"? ...the correspondent regularly refers to the way things "seemed" or "appeared", leading how a thing actually "is" entirely ambiguous.[28]
- Could the word "keeps" be moved out of the quote and brackets in Editor Vincent Starrett stated in his introduction to the 1921 collection of Crane's work entitled Men, Women and Boats that the author "[keeps] down the tone where another writer might have attempted 'fine writing' and have been lost."[18] i.e. ...that the author keeps "down the tone where another writer might ...
WP:Logical quotation sometimes confuses me - thankfully, SandyGeorgia catches my errors - but it seems to me some of the quotes might not be correctly using quotation marks.Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments and support, Ruhrfisch! I've added a citation to the lead (a repeat of what is used for verification later in the article) and changed the "leaving" and "keeps" as suggested. As for the logical quotations, I've looked through them again and don't believe anything is amiss; most of the quotes used are complete thoughts, and all end in periods, which is why the punctuation is contained within the quotation marks -- even the poem has a period! Thanks again. :) María (habla conmigo) 12:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. This is a well-written, engaging, and thorough article about Crane's story. I found the critical commentary intriguing, and the prose finely sculpted. I have a few minor questions and suggestions, which I have left on the article's talk page. Kudos to Maria for another fine piece! Scartol • Tok 15:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Professionally written, engaging throughout. I reviewed the article on March 28, and all of my concerns have been addressed. Finetooth (talk) 20:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Well wrote, images check out, alt text present, and references look good. I do have one comment though. In the notes, the year of the references in parenthesis, but in the reference section they are not in parenthesis. I believe the years in both sections should have parenthesis. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments and support, Charles Edward! The only citations that use parentheses are the ones for Wertheim, in order to differentiate between his two books used as references. I don't believe the citations and the listed references need to match, per se; this is a style I've used in both Stephen Crane and, to a further extent (in which all citations include the year of publication in parentheses), Emily Dickinson. María (habla conmigo) 13:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose until a concern, similar to one i raised in the GA review, has been addressed. The article is excellent, but if you read carefully it apepars to contain several instances of original research. Examples:
- Plot summary: "The first part introduces the four characters—the correspondent, a condescending observer detached from the rest of the group..." etc. Think carefully: I presume Crane has not actually had one of the characters say that the correspondent is "a condescending observer". This is not a plot feature (ie. it should not be in this section of the WP article), and it represents an analysis of the story's characters that needs to be sourced.
- Major themes: "That nature is an ultimately disinterested woman is an idea that appears in other works by Crane; in his 1895 novel The Red Badge of Courage, for example, the character Henry Flemming thinks "Nature to be a woman with a deep aversion to tragedy."" Superficially this appears OK, except that the footnote is to Crane's book (ie. The Red Badge of Courage etc) Thus a WP editor has engaged in OR by locating a quote from Flemming and telling us that this shows Crane repeating his theme of "nature [as] an ultimately disinterested woman". The same thing happens later in this subsection, with the sentence that begins "The correspondent laments the lack of religious support, as well as his inability to blame God for his misfortunes, musing:..." The footnote is again to Crane's story, so the interpretation of it is that of a WP editor.
I really enjoyed this article and think María does a great job, but at present she looks too close to the subject to have realised that this type of OR has occurred. I hope these points can be addressed, regards, hamiltonstone (talk) 01:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:45, 16 April 2010 [18].
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
I am nominating this for featured article because it is currently a good article, and has been through a peer review since that time. I've just gone through and applied some formatting changes to the references and corrected the points raised in the review. I've raised a few articles to GA now, but this is my first attempt at an FA. There is only one dog breed article currently at FA, which is Beagle. Miyagawa (talk) 14:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links,
but you have an external link to http://mail.ukcdogs.com/UKCweb.nsf/80de88211ee3f2dc8525703f004ccb1e/1f7633782490d01785257044004da771?OpenDocument that requires login and is not marked as such. Ucucha 14:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment in the lede, it says "There are a few health issues...", but at least 7 (maybe more if you split knee and hips, as well as others) are listed in the bulk of the article. Saying "a few" in this case seems somewhat inaccurate. Perhaps "A number of...", or other wording? -- Bfigura (talk) 17:58, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed the line to read "There are several health issues...". Miyagawa (talk) 18:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't profess to know exactly what the original commenter intended, but IMHO "several" typically denotes less than "a few", whereas Bfigura seems to think (and I would have to agree) that >7 listed health problems are more than what both wordings might suggest. Maybe it can be tempered with something along the lines of "The breed is affected by various health issues"? María (habla conmigo) 20:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
- General
"It was believed that these dogs could keep fleas away, and some even believed that they could prevent forms of stomach illnesses" - believed by who? (The 16th Centurions I suspect, best to be clear though)Internal link for "Pug"?- "
During the early part of the 18th century, John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, kept red and white spaniels of the King Charles type used for hunting." - this sentence is a bit confusing to me. Perhaps it should be "During the early part of the 18th century, John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, kept red and white King Charles type spaniels for hunting." "In 1926, an American named Roswell Eldridge offered..." better as "In 1926, American Roswell Eldridge offered...""Eldridge would die before seeing..." better as "Eldridge died before seeing...""in the Ttiweh Cavalier Kennel, numbers went from around 60 to only 3 during the 1940s", perhaps instead "in the Ttiweh Cavalier Kennel, the population of sixty dropped to three during the 1940s".In the "Temperament" section, "Cavaliers" is used frequently. converting some of the instances of "Cavaliers" to pronoun would help it to read better.
- MOS
"The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is a small breed of dog of Spaniel type, considered one of the toy dog breeds." - "considered" is a WP:WEASEL word. That should be rephrased or attributed.
- Citations needed
"...and it was said of him that "His Majesty was seldom seen without his little dogs"." uncited quote, see WP:MOSQUOTE- "
of "Blenheim Spaniels of the old type, as shown in pictures of Charles II of England's time, long face, no stop, flat skull, not inclined to be domed, with spot in centre of skull." " uncited quote - "The first recorded Cavalier living in America was brought from Britain in 1956 by W. Lyon Brown, together with Elizabeth Spalding and other enthusiasts, she founded the Cavalier King Charles Club USA which continues to the present day."
- "The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is one of the largest toy breeds."
- "The two breeds share similar history and only diverged from each other about 100 years ago."
- "While the Cavalier weighs on average between 10–18 pounds (4.5–8.2 kg), the King Charles is smaller at 9–12 pounds (4.1–5.4 kg)."
- "According to statistics released by The Kennel Club, Cavaliers were the 6th most popular dog in the United Kingdom in 2007 with 11,422 registrations in a single year."
- The source for this is at the end of the next sentence.--Dodo bird (talk) 23:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If that is the source, it only needs to be duplicated to this sentence as well. WP:CITE says that any sentence citing statistics, reports, etc, must be followed by a citation. This can be done easily by naming the ref tag, and copying the tag up to the end of this sentence. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:06, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The source for this is at the end of the next sentence.--Dodo bird (talk) 23:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "They rank 44th in Stanley Coren's The Intelligence of Dogs, being of average working/obedience intelligence. " -
should proably try to rephrase so the slash can be removed too. "It is rare for a 10-year-old Cavalier not to have a heart murmur."- "While heart disease is common in dogs generally – one in 10 of all dogs will eventually have heart problems – mitral valve disease is generally (as in humans) a disease of old age."
- "...with international research samples in the past few years consistently showing over 90% of cavaliers have the malformation, and that between 30–70% have syrinxes."
- "...Between six months and four years of age in 85% of symptomatic dogs, according to Clare Rusbridge, a research scientist."
- "An MRI scan is normally done to confirm diagnosis of SM (and also will reveal PSOM)"
- "As many as half of all Cavalier King Charles Spaniels may have a congenital blood disorder called idiopathic asymptomatic thrombocytopenia, an abnormally low number of platelets in the blood, according to recent studies in Denmark and the United States."
- "PSOM has been reported almost exclusively in Cavaliers, and it may affect up to 40% of them."
- "Cavalier King Charles Spaniels may be predisposed to a form of congenital deafness, which is present at birth, due to a lack of formation or early degeneration of receptors in the inner ear, although this is relatively rare."
- References
- Note: most of the link references have a access date of 2009, it might be worth updating the dates. (None are dead)
Ref #12 has a "pp", but should instead have a "p"- What makes "http://www.terrificpets.com/dog_breeds/cavalier_king_charles_spaniel.asp" a Reliable Source?
Ref 29 is a blog "http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterwedderburn/9307223/dog_breeders_in_denial/", unless it can be shown the author is authoritative on the matters he is speaking of, it is not a reliable source.- The blog is hosted by the Daily Telegraph, a British newspaper. The author is one of several staff bloggers the Telegraph has on various subjects and has written a fair number of animal related articles for the Telegraph in addition to being a Vet for 25 years. Miyagawa (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Images
File:King-charles-spaniel.jpg, has no source, date, author, etcAll the images are currently on the right. You may consider staggering some to the left- All other images check out
- Alt text present
- Prose looks good
Oppose for now, the number of referencing issues is my primary concern. Everything else is pretty well in order, and I find the article well wrote. Its an interesting topic, and I see you've put alot of research into it. Great job so far, keep up the good work and if you can address these issues I'd be happy to change to support. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 15:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. I would lean toward oppose, based on referencing issues to which Charles referred. I did take the liberty to tweak the lead a bit, reducing the numbers of which, what and wherefore. My issues with the references is that they are not all listed. A basic listing of the references in alpha order would make it more obvious that the fundamental sources have been covered. I have other prose issues that I'll bring up if the reference issues can be addressed. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Two questions about sources: why are barkbytes and terrificpets.com and puppytrainingathome.com reliable sources?
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:25, 24 April 2010 [19].
Paramount Television Network
- Nominator(s): Firsfron of Ronchester 20:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because it has been through GA review and peer review and meets the featured article criteria. This article has caught on with bloggers who have never heard of the topic, and who write their own summaries based on this article (for example here, here, and here), and one reader left a kind message on my talk page here concerning this article.
Particular attention has been made to include contemporary sources, since most (actually, nearly all) modern-day reference works do not mention the subject of this article. When I began this article in 2007, the subject had only three valid Google hits. Luckily, that has changed.
I'm aware that the subject is on an obscure, unpopular topic; finding a GA reviewer took several months, and the article also ended up on the Peer Review backlog. So if the article fails FAC due to lack of support, but the content is improved, that's ok. Firsfron of Ronchester 20:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for checking. I'm not new to FAC, so I checked them myself, too. :) You've changed some of the dashes in citations, but I rather painstakingly copied and pasted those dashes in from the original sources. For example, in reference #12, Para's KTLA Bows Jan. 22; Hope Emcee – Star-Studded Cast Inked". Billboard: 10. 1947-01-18, the punctuation in the citation's title was a hyphen (-), not an endash (–). It looks as though that is correct according to Wikipedia:MOSQUOTE ("[the] practice of conforming typographical styling to a publication's own "house style" is universal. Allowable typographical alterations include [...] styling of dashes"), but I worry that a reader who types the endash in his or her browser's "find text" box to locate the title of an article will not find the citation. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, but issues may come up after you check, or you may have forgotten—it happens, and another check can't do harm. Yes, the edits I made conform to MOS, but may cause problems for the reason you mentioned. I don't care particularly much about this specific issue, but FAs should conform to all aspects of the MOS. Ucucha 02:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for checking. I'm not new to FAC, so I checked them myself, too. :) You've changed some of the dashes in citations, but I rather painstakingly copied and pasted those dashes in from the original sources. For example, in reference #12, Para's KTLA Bows Jan. 22; Hope Emcee – Star-Studded Cast Inked". Billboard: 10. 1947-01-18, the punctuation in the citation's title was a hyphen (-), not an endash (–). It looks as though that is correct according to Wikipedia:MOSQUOTE ("[the] practice of conforming typographical styling to a publication's own "house style" is universal. Allowable typographical alterations include [...] styling of dashes"), but I worry that a reader who types the endash in his or her browser's "find text" box to locate the title of an article will not find the citation. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
- General
"The network signed affiliation agreements with more than 50 television stations in 1950" - how about the exact number here, rather than "more than fifty". I also read lower in the article where they peaked with over 100 affiliates. Perhaps the peak number should also be mentioned in the lead?
- White's 1992 book says there were more than 50 affiliates during the peak years. White's 1992 paper states there were more than 40 at the peak. No other author mentions the peak number of affiliates, and in fact the PTN is relegated to a single paragraph in even the most thorough books (Lev's, for example). Although the table lists more than 100 affiliates, many stations only aired one program, and no PTN series lasted eight years.
"Filming of programs took place at the Paramount station KTLA in Los Angeles" - missing "the", unless Paramount Station was the name of the building. In which case both should be capitalized.
- Fixed, thanks.
"Other television stations across the United States received Paramount programs via kinescope for airing", maybe "kinescope film" or "kinescope recording". It won't be obvious to most readers what a kinescope is, best to describe it.
- Adjusted, thanks.
"Station managers at WBKB-TV in Chicago also had plans to distribute kinescoped programs", I am a little confused about that statement. Did the Chicago station intend to produce its own programs and sell them independently of the LA station, or were they intending to resell the programs recorded by the LA station?
- They intended to film and distribute their own PTN programs. I've adjusted.
"the sale ended Paramount's first, early ventures into network television." - "first, early" seems redundant in this setting.
- Thanks. I've reduced the redundancy by removing "early".
The article lists the executives and key people of the company in the infobox at the lead, but doesn't give them any mention in the article, except in passing and by title rather than name. It could be useful to add a paragraph talking about them and their role in the company. I understand sources may not give expansive information on them, but anything about them would really be useful.
This is a good suggestion, and I'm able to write a bit on KTLA president Paul Raibourn and vice president Klaus Landsberg, but it might be horribly negative. Bergmann's book, Kisselof's book, Goldenson's book, and White's book and papers discuss them, but no book source appears to paint them in any sort of a positive light. "Bully", "dickhead", "coldest man I ever met", "sabotage", "Nazi", "stole my network", "gave me cancer", etc. I'd like to keep this as NPOV as possible, so I avoided any mention of Raibourn's or Landsberg's professional doings or personalities. They appear to have been much hated by staff at DuMont, ABC, and KTLA. I can write something, if needed.- I've written a couple of paragraphs, sourced to ABC's Goldenson and Billboard.
- Citations needed
"The following year, Paramount purchased a 40% interest in DuMont Laboratories, a pioneer in early television technology founded by Dr. Allen B. DuMont."
- With a slight adjustment, the sentence is cited to Hess. (It could have been cited to White, Bergmann, Auter, Kisselof, or several others, but a cite to Hess was already in place there anyway).
- "The popularity of KTLA's local programs opened up the possibility that they would become national hits if released to other stations across the country."
- This is never explicitly stated anywhere; it was my attempt to smooth the prose by bridging the gap between KTLA's early local programming and its national aspirations which resulted in the 1948 launch. I can remove it, but then there will be a slight disjoint between the local section and the attempted national distribution. Advice appreciated.
"Meanwhile, CBS, ABC and NBC had each acquired the maximum of five stations by the mid-1950s."
- Cited.
- "Author Timothy White has called Paramount's efforts to launch its own television service, which directly competed with the DuMont Television Network, an unwise decision;", this quote needs a citation following it.
- The citation at the end of the paragraph covers the entire paragraph. I can add the same citation again, but have been through FAC before and have been told before not to duplicate citations in the same paragraph.
"The Spade Cooley Show, a variety program hosted by Spade Cooley and featuring Dick Lane, Anita Aros, Phil Gray, and Kay Cee Jones"
- Cited. This was actually one of the five series that White specifically mentioned in his 1992 paper (all the rest were more difficult to find), so I don't know why it wasn't cited before...
"Additionally, various press releases indicated that other KTLA series would be offered on the network."
- I had actually cited each press release immediately following the title of the series which was planned for national distribution, but have added them after this sentence as well.
- "There is no indication, however, that the following series aired outside of Los Angeles"
- I can't provide a citation for a lack of indication. I can strike the sentence, but then readers will be falsely informed that those four programs aired on the network. The only sources for these programs are press releases which indicate that they would be seen on the network "soon".
- "Leo Resnick, hearing examiner for the Commission, concluded that Paramount did not control DuMont; this ruling would have allowed both Paramount and DuMont to expand to five stations each, but the FCC rejected this portion of Resnick's findings."
- Again, the citation is at the end of the paragraph, as the source supports all the material in the paragraph.
"...the sale ended Paramount's first, early ventures into network television."
- Cited.
"This plan was aborted when Paramount made the decision to transform Phase II into Star Trek: The Motion Picture."
- Cited.
- Images
- Note: File:Paramounttelevisionnetwork.jpg is a non-free image, but has an acceptable fair use rationale
File:Paramount Television Network.png has no source, date, author, etc, only a description.
- I am the author, and I've added the author, date created, and the software used to create the image.
- References
Reference 24 needs a "pp." before the page numberSame for ref 121, 142, 124, 151, 153, 179, 201 189
The citation template used for these references suppresses the "pp." from showing.I think on those you can manually insert a "p" or "pp" into the parameter so it would look like "pages=pp 2". —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Done, and thanks for the tip. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 18 needs an access dateSame for ref 67In the further reading section, the page number of the book should be "pp" rather than "p"
- Fixed.
Query: The article uses "pp" throughout, but generally isn't that reserved for when you site multiple pages, and "p" when siting an individual page? Either way, so long as it is consistent I think its ok.
- I'm just using citation templates.
- Sources check out.
- Alt text present
- Prose is excellent
This is a very nice article and an interesting topic. It is lacking in details in some areas, but I understand that the availability of published information equally lacking. Most of my comments are nitpicks, and once addressed I'd be glad to support this article. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:36, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, Charles, for reading the article and for your thorough review. I've struck out some items and am working on your other observations. If I've struck something out which you feel has not been addressed, please feel free to unstrike it. Firsfron of Ronchester 22:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You've addressed them all to my own satisfaction. One new one though from your additions:
"According to Leonard Goldenson, president of ABC during this era, Raibourn "constantly nitpicked and needled [Allen DuMont] over the smallest expenditures. DuMont came to the point where, psychologically, he thought he couldn't do anything without Raibourn's approval."" - is an uncited quote, I suspect though its from the ref at the end of the paragraph, but don't have the book to check myself.
- It's cited at the end of the paragraph, but as it is a direct quote, I've gone ahead and dupe cited it. Someone else will have to ding me for the duplicated citation... if another reviewer happens along. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. This article meets all the FA criteria. Another quality article for the encyclopedia, Good work! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the thorough review and the support, Charles. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. This article meets all the FA criteria. Another quality article for the encyclopedia, Good work! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quick comment – Per WP:ASL, scrolling lists of citations, like the one that is used here, should be avoided because of several accessibility problems.Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:08, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I wasn't aware of that. I actually got the idea and code for the reference scrollbar from a Featured Article; it was an attempt to reduce the size of the large reference section. I've removed it. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
images File:Paramounttelevisionnetwork.jpg non-existent FU rationale! Fasach Nua (talk) 22:51, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The image has always been correctly licensed, with a section beginning with "Non-free media use rationale for Paramount Television Network". Firsfron of Ronchester 06:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I know what you mean, and I've reworded the FUR slightly. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:40, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Three weeks, no consensus to promote, unfortunately FAC is stalled and backlogged. Please bring this back in a week, perhaps placing a neutral message on WikiProject pages to encourage review. Sorry, but with FAC lacking reviewers, my hands are tied. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me know when you resubmit for a review. I'd be glad to review the article again for you. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 15:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:41, 8 April 2010 [20].
Parity of zero
I started this article in September 2007. Since the peer review in August 2009, I've moved it from "Evenness of zero" to "Parity of zero" and made improvements to the prose. Very recently, I've also rearranged some of the material in the "History" introduction (per the PR) and in "Group discussions".
I haven't done a FAC in years! Hopefully this article is like 0.999... — except, you know, better. ;-) Melchoir (talk) 10:56, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose—sorry. I know it is expected to include the title of the article in the first sentence but it is not working here at all. The introductory sentence from Parity is much better. There are other expressions that are difficult to understand. The second sentence, for example is tantamount to gobbledegook: "Such proofs follow immediately from the definition of the term "even number", whose applicability to zero is not arbitrary in the least; it can be further motivated by the familiar rules for sums and products of even numbers." What on earth does "further motivated" and "not arbitary (sic) in the least" mean? And, what are these "familiar rules"? What is meant by "On the human level"?
Does this mean it is better understood by chimps?And who are we writing for? I get the impression that the article is written for teachers of mathematics, "Discussing the parity of zero in class can spark vigorous debates as students encounter basic principles of mathematical reasoning". The term "students" is usedrelentlessly throughout this article.I feel the article is not about the parity of zero at all—it is about how to teach it.Graham Colm (talk) 19:48, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I often omit the title of an article from the first sentence myself, when it feels unnatural or artificial. Back when this article was named "Evenness of zero", that phrase certainly wasn't in the first sentence. Since it's been moved to "Parity of zero", which works better, I thought I'd include it. Why do you think it's not working / worse than Parity (mathematics)? Melchoir (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Second sentence: Does this edit help? I've replaced those phrases. Melchoir (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "On the human level" is a transition phrase between paragraphs. The preceding paragraph is all about how zero is definitely even; the following paragraph is all about how it's not so simple in people's minds. I'll admit that these four words have a low information content, but if they make the prose easier to read, they're worth it. Melchoir (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The word "student" or "students" appears around 25 times in the first top-level section: "In education". It appears just once in the other four sections, which make up the bulk of the article: "Numerical cognition", "History", "Mathematical contexts", and "Everyday contexts". Isn't that what you'd expect? Melchoir (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have toned down my comments, they were a little over the top, sorry. Let's see what other reviewers have to say. Graham Colm (talk) 13:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. The structure of the article, and the length of the text under "in education", make this read like a classroom guide or education essay. The education section should not appear so early in the article - history at the very least should precede it; possibly so should the mathematical contexts. There appears to be too much detail on educational / developmental studies. The lead is not a summary of the whole article, but emphasises education and cognition at the expense of history and mathematical context (all should be there). BTW i didn't really understand the use of the expression "on the human level", so i would re-think that transition. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have the "In education" section first because it has the "Explanations" subsection. This subsection is the most accessible part of the article, and it explains why zero is even. Wouldn't you agree that it's a high priority to get that in as early as possible? If "In education" were split up into two top-level sections, I could see "History" going in between them -- not "Mathematical contexts" though (it's too long). Melchoir (talk) 00:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "History" and "Mathematical contexts" are represented in the first paragraph of the lead. Is there some additional sub-topic from those sections that you would like to include? Melchoir (talk) 00:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- For "on the human level": are you commenting on the transition itself, or the wording used to execute it? Melchoir (talk) 00:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
- General
- The opening sentence in the lead is somewhat confusing, and as a single sentence, it should be integrated into the following paragraph. Maybe something like "Zero is an even number. The evenness and oddness of a number is its parity." You need to define and link parity somehow in the lead. Many readers won't know what it is.
- Maybe I misunderstand this subject, but it seems like the primary topic of the article should be the fact that zero is an even number. But throughout all the explanations, the article keeps coming back and explains how the concept effects education. It would be much better, in my opinion, if you made a couple straight up sections only talking about the parity of zero, and leave out all mention of students, teachers, etc. Focus on defining the topic. Then put all the education related stuff into separate sections.
- You say that "the article keeps coming back" to education. I'm not sure what you mean by that, since most of the article has nothing to do with education and doesn't mention the issue. Could you please clarify? Melchoir (talk) 03:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See my comment on the next item —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The section concerning education should come later in the article, while the section laying out what the parity of zero is should come first. Right now the article jumps into the education aspect at first without fully defining the topic. Correct me if I am wrong, but the primary application of partiy of zero would be in mathematical contexts, so those sections should come first.
- The "In education" section is the section that explains the parity of zero. It begins with a simple proof that zero is even, and its first subsection is all about elementary explanations of that fact. I agree that this material should come first. In fact, "In education" is the first section precisely because I wanted to present that material as early as possible. Did you have another section in mind? Melchoir (talk) 03:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above comment and this one go together. The mathematical sections also make a good explanation of what the parity of zero is, and how it is mathematically determined. It also gives a bit of history of it all. However in the education section, the article defines the parity of zero in a basic way in the first sentence, but throughout the section it ties it back to education, students and teachers. You could take that opening sentence out of the education section, move it to the head of the mathematical section, and use the mathematics sections as your opening section. That would give a very thorough overview of the parity of zero and its mathematical application before delving into its educational usefulness. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. I'll give it a try. My practical concerns are: (1) Presenting the explanations without commentary means that an Education section later on will have to refer to those explanations when it says "explanation X is suitable for audience Y". This seems like duplication of material, and the reader might be forced to scroll between the distant sections to understand what the latter is saying. (2) Much of the material currently in "Mathematical contexts" is very advanced. Most readers won't appreciate it, and in the worst case it will cause them to stop reading, so they'll miss the more accessible discussion of education and cognition.
I also have a theoretical concern, namely, all the material about explanations is taken from books and journal articles written by educators, for educators. The cited sources are discussing explanations with the assumption that the reader doesn't need them. If we just state the explanations, implying that the reader does need them... it's not exactly sticking to the sources, and it's a little condescending. Of course you could argue that my version is patronizing in its own way. We'll see how the execution works. Melchoir (talk) 01:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. I'll give it a try. My practical concerns are: (1) Presenting the explanations without commentary means that an Education section later on will have to refer to those explanations when it says "explanation X is suitable for audience Y". This seems like duplication of material, and the reader might be forced to scroll between the distant sections to understand what the latter is saying. (2) Much of the material currently in "Mathematical contexts" is very advanced. Most readers won't appreciate it, and in the worst case it will cause them to stop reading, so they'll miss the more accessible discussion of education and cognition.
- I agree with the above comments that the article reads much like and essay. It is very editorial-like in places, especially the education sections. Check out WP:TONE. Here are a few examples.
- "There are several ways to determine whether an integer is even or odd, all of which indicate that 0 is even:" How about "Each method used to determine whether an number is even or odd proves zero is even:"
- There's actually a subtle problem with both options: they suggest that it's necessary to consider all methods to determine the parity of zero, when any one suffices. I've tried another option. Melchoir (talk) 03:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "First of all, the concise definition of "even" is often not intuitive to children.", who says this is the first most important thing? Drop the "first of all"
"Often curious students will directly ask if zero is even""It is important for teachers of mathematics to understand such basic facts as the even parity of zero." - says who? Needs attribution and citation- Removed. The journal article distinguishes between "specialized context knowledge" and "common content knowledge", giving the parity of zero as an example of the latter, which justifies the "basic facts" label. But it's not worth it to try to introduce that distinction; it would just distract. Melchoir (talk) 04:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Unfortunately, many teachers harbor misconceptions about zero, although it is hard to quantify how many." - Unfortunate? Needs attribution and citation."There is some subtlety here: subjects are known to compute and name the result of multiplication by zero faster than multiplication of nonzero numbers, but they are slower to verify proposed results like 2 × 0 = 0." - I am not sure just what "subtly" is referring to here, perhaps it could be spelled out more clearly- Removed. Naively you'd think that the speed of computing a result and the speed of certifying a result would be well-correlated, so it's a surprise that one is faster and the other is slower when 0 gets involved, and it's not completely obvious which result is more important to mentally deciding if 0 is even. But it's perhaps not necessary to warn the reader that something tricky is going on. Melchoir (talk) 04:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"This strong dependence on familiarity again undermines the mental calculation hypothesis." - Attribution and citation needed."It is difficult to say when in the history of mathematics the first person examined the parity of zero;" - but the article goes on to explain the first known clearly known instances of the discussion of the topic in the 7th century. I would put more emphasis on the first known instance, rather than the unknown.- They discussed zero in the 7th century, but not necessarily its parity. I can find no evidence of any discussion of the parity of zero earlier than a primary-source example from 1849. That leaves a gulf of over a thousand years when the first discussion might conceivably have happened -- we really don't know! Melchoir (talk) 04:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I still find the wording of that section to be little too wordy. I am striking this though. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- They discussed zero in the 7th century, but not necessarily its parity. I can find no evidence of any discussion of the parity of zero earlier than a primary-source example from 1849. That leaves a gulf of over a thousand years when the first discussion might conceivably have happened -- we really don't know! Melchoir (talk) 04:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Some other mathematical contexts, where the presence of 0 in the even numbers can be felt, follow.", you could drop that whole sentence
- There is quite a few other examples, but hope this helps to identify them
- "There are several ways to determine whether an integer is even or odd, all of which indicate that 0 is even:" How about "Each method used to determine whether an number is even or odd proves zero is even:"
- Citations needed
- paragraph beginning "Age-appropriate explanations that zero is even...."
- paragraph beginning "Early in elementary school, numbers..."
paragraph beginning "The chart on the right depicts""This time the number of children in the same age range identifying zero as even dropped to 32%. ""Success in deciding that zero is even initially shoots up and then levels off at around 50% in Years 3 to 6. ""A couple fourth-years realized that zero can be split into equal parts: "no one gets owt if it's shared out."" - uncited quote, see WP:CITE"A second-year was "quite convinced" that zero was odd, on the basis that "it is the first number you count"." uncited quoteparagraph beginning "More in-depth investigations were conducted"- "The claims about zero alone take many forms: Zero is not even or odd; Zero could be even; Zero is not odd; Zero has to be an even; Zero is not an even number; Zero is always going to be an even number; Zero is not always going to be an even number; Zero is even; Zero is special."
"Ball later asked her students to reflect on this "particularly long and confusing discussion on even and odd numbers"." - uncited quote- "Data is also scarce for teachers' attitudes on students' attitudes."
- "Adults who do believe that zero is even can nevertheless feel unfamiliar or uncomfortable with the fact, enough to measurably slow them down in a reaction time experiment."
- "Repeated experiments have shown a delay at zero for subjects from a variety of national and linguistic backgrounds, representing both left to right and right to left writing systems; almost all right-handed; from 17–53 years of age; confronted with number names in numeral form, spelled out, and spelled in a mirror image."
- paragraph beginning "The precise definition of any mathematical term..."
- paragraph beginning "The above rules would therefore..."
- The first section in "Mathematical contexts" has no cites
- paragraph beginning "The observation that zero is not odd..."
- paragraph beginning "Zero is the starting point of the even natural numbers..."
- paragraph beginning "One way of interpreting the evenness..."
- Skimming through the existing citations doesn't reveal a source for this paragraph, and I can't find one on Google either. I'll have to read through all the sources to see what support I can find; I know Frobisher has some quotes that are related but not ideal. For reference, this paragraph was discussed at Talk:Parity of zero#Section on The empty set. Unfortunately the other editor has left Wikipedia... so no help on citations there. Melchoir (talk) 02:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
paragraph beginning "Some multiples of 2 are more even..."paragraph beginning "It is clear that 0 is divisible by 2..."
- MOS
- The notes section should precede the reference section. See WP:CITEX
- The references each contain a short paragraph following them explaining them. Those descriptions should be removed and put into the body of the article if they matter, otherwise removed completely.
- The article mixes shortened refs with full refs. That is a little confusing, although not required by the MOS, I'd suggesting fully using the shortened citation method.
- I'll give it a try. The reason for the current references style is that there are really two distinct kinds of references being used. First, there's a handful of authors who provide "significant coverage" of the parity of zero in the sense of Wikipedia:Notability. These are the backbone of the article. Then, there's the rest: sources that mention the parity of zero only in passing. Calling out the significant sources in References, while leaving the rest to Notes, helps make this distinction for the reader who wants to do further research.
One drawback of the current scheme is that Ball has many entries, but only one is called out. Mostly for that reason, I'm willing to move to a more standard-looking format. But I would still want some text at the top of References that points to the most valuable sources. Melchoir (talk) 02:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll give it a try. The reason for the current references style is that there are really two distinct kinds of references being used. First, there's a handful of authors who provide "significant coverage" of the parity of zero in the sense of Wikipedia:Notability. These are the backbone of the article. Then, there's the rest: sources that mention the parity of zero only in passing. Calling out the significant sources in References, while leaving the rest to Notes, helps make this distinction for the reader who wants to do further research.
Why is the TOC moved to the right? It should probably be left to default.
- Images
File:Balance_scale.jpg, has no source, author, date, etc. It is not obviously public domain either.- Fixed. You're right, on closer inspection, it seems the national lab retains copyright. I've removed the PD tag and marked it for deletion. The replacement is commons:File:Scale_of_justice_2.svg, which is on firmer ground: the original comes from a URL starting with "fbi.gov/publications", which seems unambiguous enough. Melchoir (talk) 00:50, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:0143Pairs.svg has no sourceFile:FrobisherZeroParity.svg source listed is Frobisher 1999, but there is no other information regarding Frobisher on the page. A full citation, with page numbers, is needed.File:RecursiveEvenPolygon.svg, no source given. However is borderline common knowledge. Still a cite would be useful- Citation given. Like the case of 0143Pairs.svg, there is some originality in my presentation. Melchoir (talk) 01:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:RecursiveEvenBipartite.svg no source- Explained with citation, although this is another case where I've found no good analogous image. Melchoir (talk) 01:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:EvenIntegersSubgroup.svg no source
- For that image, there is no source but me. Clarified in this edit. Melchoir (talk) 01:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Other images check out
- Prose looks great
- References are acceptable
Oppose, this article still needs a fair bit of work. The referencing issues are my biggest concern, followed by the tone of the education section. I have not listed all the issues with the references or tone, but this should be enough to demonstrate where the issues are. Good job on the article so far, its really is a very interesting read and I can see alot of research has went into it. Keep up the good work and you will soon have it up to FA standards. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the detailed comments! I'll get to work on the individual items, and I'll also want to follow up on the larger points. I'll make all notes inline above, and I'll add another comment down here when I'm done (for now). Melchoir (talk) 00:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I struck what you've resolved and replied to a few. After this review closes, I'd suggest taking the article to WP:PR where you could get some more useful feedback on improving it. It is an interesting topic and would make a worthy featured article. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Confused by the statement above; this review is already closed (see below). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Right, but the bot hasn't came by and archived the discussion and fixed the talk page. The editor would want to wait until after that to do the peer review, otherwise the PR template will give him errors because it will think the FAC review is still open. Sorry, I should have been clear. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The previous PR was disappointing in that it didn't attract significant feedback. I can certainly try another, but I don't have high hopes that it'll be useful... Melchoir (talk) 01:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I think I'm done for today. Some of the line items remain unaddressed; I might work on them and/or do some of the heavy lifting (layout) over the weekend. If this page gets locked down by a bot, so be it -- there are always talk pages! Melchoir (talk) 02:54, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Confused by the statement above; this review is already closed (see below). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 13:35, 10 April 2010 [21].
Ganoga Lake
This is an article that grew out of a red link in Waterfalls in Ricketts Glen State Park. It recently became a GA (thanks Arsenikk) and I want to thank Dincher and Jackyd101 for their reviews too. None of the reviewers found major problems, so I thought I would bring it to FAC as I believe it meets all the featured article requirements.
I want to note that because this is a privately owned lake, current sources on it are limited. I also want to thank Ben Kouba and Justin Mowery on Flickr for freely licensing their beautiful images for use in this article. Thanks in advance for your comments, which I will do my best to respond to quickly. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support all of my concerns were addressed in an earlier review. Dincher (talk) 03:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links or dead external links. I could fix a few dashes, so I can feel I did something useful here. Ucucha 03:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - No need to thank me for my review, I really couldn't contribute more than praise for this excellent article which I am happy to support without reservation. Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 09:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Review by Charles Edward
"However, according to a 1917 Pennsylvania Water Resources Inventory Report, in its longest dimensions it is 3,720 feet (1,130 m) long (0.705 miles or 1.135 km) by 1,025 feet (312 m) wide.", should probably have a citation there- "It has an average depth of 10 feet (3.0 m) and a maximum depth of 13 feet (4.0 m).", should probably have a citation there
The alt text for File:Ganoga Lake Map.png is very long. It should probably be cut back.
- Images all check out good
- References are great
- Prose is outstanding
- Alt text present
- No outstanding MOS issues
Support, this article is fantastic. Great job! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 14:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your kind words, support, and suggestions. I added the same ref (p. 70 of the 1917 Pennsylvania Water Resources Inventory Report) after each of the two sentences. If they all use the same reference, my preference is to have one ref at the end of a series of sentences, but this makes it very clear where each sentence gets its data. I also tried trimming the alt text some. Hopefully these are better now? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [22].
Olivia Manning
I have loved reading and rereading Manning's Fortunes of war novel sequence, and knew that it was based on the author's real life experiences during the Second World War. Intrigued, I have been working slowly to research and expand the article. Manning herself proved to be crabbier and generally more difficult than her fictional counterpart, but that's real life for you. The article has been greatly improved following the suggestions made at Maria's Good article review, Finetooth's peer review, and a copyedit by User:PiCo. Further comments and suggestions are welcomed! Slp1 (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 12:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. A comprehensive, balanced and well-referenced article. I mention in passing that the OED insists on a capital in anti-Semitic. - Tim riley (talk) 06:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Review by Charles Edward
- General
"Manning's youth was divided between Portsmouth and Ireland, giving her an "Anglo-Irish sense of belonging to nowhere".", is this quote from her directly? It should probably be attributed. Its grammar does not flow well with the leading part of the sentence. I'd suggest a rephrasing or omitting "to" from the quote.
- I've attributed it in the lead and fixed up the typo.
"Indeed, when financial circumstances forced Manning to leave", should probably drop "indeed".
- If you don't mind, I'd rather leave it, as it makes the link to her mother's advice.
Internal link "typist"?
- done
"Reggie was relentlessly gregarious, and throughout his life, his warmth, wit and friendliness earned him many friends and drinking companions.", that is an opinion, it should probably be attributed.
- It is an opinion, but it seems to be everybody's opinion, and as such I'd be sorry to attribute to only one person. Reggie seems universally acknowledged to be quite the character. See [23]; [24], [25], and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography "Large, ebullient, and gregarious, Smith was dispassionately portrayed by Olivia Manning as Guy Pringle.... Guy Pringle in these volumes is a big-hearted Marxist, just as those who knew and worked with Reggie Smith remember him...His extreme friendliness and wit, his warmth and exuberance of character, earned him an enormous circle of friends.."
Internal link "Egypt", "Greece", "British Council", "Cario", "Communist", etc. Lots of terms that could use links throughout.
- The first three were already linked on first mention. I've done the last two and will check to see if there are any other useful links to add.
"She was also constantly anxious about illness, and was indeed frequently unwell.", unneeded "indeed"
- Once again I'd prefer to keep this one, so as to make the link with her anxiety of illness.
- "Indeed, Reggie was soon transferred away", should probably drop "indeed"
- I've dropped this one as you suggest.
"Manning described the books as long chapters of an autobiography, and indeed early versions were written in the first person.", hmmm another "indeed" :) You should probably scan throughout to make sure all other uses of "indeed" are useful
- Indeed, it looks like we have different views on on the use of "indeed". ;-) I've removed this and another one I found.
If "Jacob Morrow" was an early pen name, a redirect by that title to this article would be appropriate. It may also be worth mentioning in the lead, I leave that to your discretion
- I'll certainly make the redirect, thanks for the suggestion, but have not added it to the lead. I think they were such minor novels, ones that she didn't admit to for many years, that it would be overkill to add them.
Who was her publisher(s)? There are a few mentions of them, but their name is never given, unless I missed it somehow. That should definitely be added. If there were more than one, the publisher should probably also be listed in the list of works.
- She started, prewar, with Jonathan Cape, which is mentioned. Post war she was with Heinemann, and moved post 1974 to Weidenfeld. I've added this. I'd rather not add the publishers to the list... what with hardcover/paperbook, UK/US publishers and name changes/takeover of the publishers' etc I think it would become very complicated.
- Are there an estimate or hard number on the amount of book she sold, or what her best selling books was? That could be useful to bring out and help establish the popularity of her works.
- Unfortunately, I can't find any very specific information about this in the sources. Good idea though.
- MOS
The references section should follow the notes section; not precede it
- Done. Thanks!
- At 53,000 characters, the article is at the upper limit of the recommended size of an article according to WP:LENGTH. You may consider scaling it back a bit, but it is acceptable as it is now.
- Good. I'm not sure there is that much expansion possible, in any case, so this is as big as it would probably get.
- Citations needed
- "
They were married at Marylebone Registry Office on 18 August 1939, with Stevie Smith and Louis McNeice as witnesses." "Manning was subject to anxieties bordering on paranoia throughout her life."- "
She frequently sacked vets – telling one "I do not pay you to tell me that there is nothing wrong with my animal" – and trying animal faith healers at times.", quote needs a citation "Early in 1975 Manning began The Danger Tree, which for a time she described as "The Fourth Part of the Balkan Trilogy"; in the event, it became the first novel in The Levant Trilogy, continuing the story of the Pringles in the Middle East.", quote needs citation"The first book proved "a long struggle" to write, in part because of Manning's lack of confidence in her powers of invention: the book juxtaposes the Desert War experiences of a young officer, Simon Boulderstone, with the securer lives of the Pringles and their circle." quote needs citation"She died in hospital on 23 July; somewhat typically, Reggie, having been recalled from Ireland, was not present when she died."
- "
- I've reworked the citing so that there is an appropriate citation at the end of each of the sentences you mention, rather than a bit later.
- Images
- Note File:Olivia manning.jpg, is non-free, fair use rationale is acceptable
- The size of some images are forced. WP:Image discourages forcing image size without a good reason.
- References are all acceptable
- Images check out
- Alt text is present
I am leaning to support this fine article. The reference section being moved and the uncited quotes are my biggest concern. Good job! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 15:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for all your comments and suggestions. I have done my best to respond to them.Slp1 (talk) 20:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, this is a very nice article, and a very interesting read. Indeed, you are very talented! Keep up the good work. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 00:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Nicely written. I made a few MINOR tweaks, revert if you wish. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- comment I couldn't find the link to the FA on the page. Am I blind or stupid? Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: As Slp1 mentioned above, I previously reviewed this article for GA. How pleased I am to see it's expanded and improved so much since then! It's well written, well referenced, and certainly brings to light an incredibly interesting woman who not many are aware of. The "Work" section is exactly what I had in mind when I suggested further attention be paid to her literary output, so great work done there. I'm very pleased to support this becoming an FA. (P.S., however, why is there no article for epic novel? The redlink really jumps out at me, which is strange since there's a category and an article for epic poetry. Hmm.) María (habla conmigo) 18:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- "Her fiction and non-fiction, frequently detailing journeys and personal odysseys, were generally set in England, Ireland, Europe and Africa" - seems comicly cautious, but is also wrong - Syria, Palestine & the Lebanon are none of these. Were any set anywhere else? -ok, one I see. Does "Africa" just mean Egypt? Better rework.
- We don't link London surely? Or England & Europe I'd say.
- "hometown" as one word is US English it seems to me
- A sentence or two explaining the Romanian political/diplomatic situation in 1939 is called for, and a couple of words on Transylvania and Egypt likewise.
- "With Bernard Montgomery's Memoirs as her guide" - "Field-Marshall M" is still usual & clearer.
- It would be useful to say which books remain in print, & when the others last were, where the information is easily accessible.
- It is extremely heavily reliant on the B&B biography. Were there no other sources for the life?
Johnbod (talk) 04:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments. Starting at the bottom, no, as far as I am aware, and after fairly exhaustive searches there are no other detailed sources apart from the B and B bio and the Dictionary of National Biography articles which I have also used. There are brief mentions of short periods of her life in various Stevie Smith, Durrell and Cairo-in-the-War bios and books. I have used these where possible. If it is any consolation there is little inconsistency between B & B and the other sources, where there these are available.
- I've added a sentence about the books currently in print. I could with some difficulty ascertain when the others were in print, if you think it is worth it, though I'm not sure where and how the information would be presented.
- I've fixed up the first sentence, the Monty reference and "home town". Thank you.
- I've delinked some; this is so much a matter of preference and I was encouraged to add links above!! My personal view is that we should be consistent if Europe is not linked then neither should Africa etc, and that if England isn't, then Ireland shouldn't be either.
- I'll work on expanding the info about Romania/Transylvania/Egypt either later on tonight or tomorrow.
- Once again, thank you for your helpful comment. --Slp1 (talk) 22:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, it should'nt be that difficult if major reprints are listed without claiming they are necessarily the last. Was everything published in a North American edition? Also how many languages has she been translated into? These are not minor points, though not the sort of thing academic critics trouble themselves with. Johnbod (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As you note, it isn't the focus of the bios. There are, for example, some incidental references to individual NA editions (some already mentioned in the text), but I can't think of any information about translations in them at all. I would probably need to do searches through world cat, books in print etc to figure this information out, which worries me somewhat as straying into original research. Do you have any comments about where this information should be added? To the text? To the list of her books at the end? I can't visualize how it is going to be presented, as over the 30-50 years many of the books have had several UK editions/reprints, North American, South African, Australian etc editions/reprints, and maybe even a translation. It is potentially a lot of information. It would be very helpful for me to see another WP article as a model, so that I can understand more clearly your suggestion --Slp1 (talk) 02:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There is rightly a lot in the article about how she was, or felt, neglected etc in later years, but it is hard to give context to this without knowing whether her books were still in print. Equally the books outside the series - how long did they stay in print. If it isn't covered to some extent in the biography then it certainly should be! Criticism is different. The German article mentions German editions of the series. I don't think reporting the existence of editions without drawing conclusions is OR. There is little point regurgitating the opinions of academic critics without knowing if anyone was or is reading the books. For example her first book seems never to have had a US paperback edition, or any since 1938, whereas Virago did a UK pb edn in 1988. Johnbod (talk) 12:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've now added
- I am still unclear and somewhat unconvinced about your request for details about out of print status. For one, I am concerned that the desire to put Manning's insecurities into context by noting the reprints/out-of-print status her books etc, would be synthesis. I've been through the bio and the ODNB entry again, and neither suggest that this was part of problem for her; instead the angst noted is mainly about reviews, lack of prizes recognition. As far as putting them in the listings, I've had a look at the "works" sections for some similar featured articles and they just mention the date of first publication, not subsequent reprintings. It is also so complicated; I don't think historical information about "when" books go out of print is available, and obviously it is a kind of circular phenomenon. Yes, Virago Modern Classics reprinted (all?) her books in the 1980s and 1990s, (which certainly would be worth a mention, if only I could find a source; for some reason this list of Virago Modern Classics omits them [29]) but these editions are now out of print once again, though others have taken up the slack. If we take Doves of Venus as an example, the listing would be something like...
- Doves of Venus: UK: Heinemann (1955, 1959, 1960, 1974) Virago, (1984, 1985), Mandarin (1992), Arrow, (2001), Random House (2001); US: Abelard-Schuman (1956); Denmark: Kbh (1956); Finland: Hämeenlinna (1956), Germany: Biederstein, (1957); Büchergilde Gutenberg, (1959); Australia: Little, Brown Book Group Limited (2001) Random House (2005); New Zealand: Random House (1997, 2004) Little, Brown Book Group Limited (2000); Canada : Random House (2001); South Africa: Random House (2001).
- And that's one that is fairly straightforward, and making assumptions that world cat is correct in its listings, which it isn't always, and likely missing some out. I would like to try and address your concerns but at the moment, I am not clear that this would really be an improvement. I'd be glad for the opinion of others here. --Slp1 (talk) 18:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Having found this this of editions, I decided to give it a go. I've added the years of all the editions listed there and on WorldCat. See this [30] --Slp1 (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, that's more than enough on English-language editions, but needs at least an overall ref. Also there should be some mention of translations into other languages - are they all North European for example? Johnbod (talk) 04:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry but I am still having trouble understanding what you are suggesting: what do you mean by "needs an overall ref"? Are you asking for a citation to the list? More details about the various editions in the text of the article? The translations (and which languages) have been included in the text for several days now.[31]. Are you suggesting more information about the translations should be in the list? Thank you for clarifying. --Slp1 (talk) 12:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The whole "Works" section is unreferenced. Presumably the information mostly came from the same one or two places in which case I would suggest only an OVERALL ref is needed, not a host of individual ones. You had not mentioned you had added the translations, and people can't be expected to reread the article every time! Hope this is clearer. Johnbod (talk) 02:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry but I am still having trouble understanding what you are suggesting: what do you mean by "needs an overall ref"? Are you asking for a citation to the list? More details about the various editions in the text of the article? The translations (and which languages) have been included in the text for several days now.[31]. Are you suggesting more information about the translations should be in the list? Thank you for clarifying. --Slp1 (talk) 12:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, that's more than enough on English-language editions, but needs at least an overall ref. Also there should be some mention of translations into other languages - are they all North European for example? Johnbod (talk) 04:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Having found this this of editions, I decided to give it a go. I've added the years of all the editions listed there and on WorldCat. See this [30] --Slp1 (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There is rightly a lot in the article about how she was, or felt, neglected etc in later years, but it is hard to give context to this without knowing whether her books were still in print. Equally the books outside the series - how long did they stay in print. If it isn't covered to some extent in the biography then it certainly should be! Criticism is different. The German article mentions German editions of the series. I don't think reporting the existence of editions without drawing conclusions is OR. There is little point regurgitating the opinions of academic critics without knowing if anyone was or is reading the books. For example her first book seems never to have had a US paperback edition, or any since 1938, whereas Virago did a UK pb edn in 1988. Johnbod (talk) 12:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As you note, it isn't the focus of the bios. There are, for example, some incidental references to individual NA editions (some already mentioned in the text), but I can't think of any information about translations in them at all. I would probably need to do searches through world cat, books in print etc to figure this information out, which worries me somewhat as straying into original research. Do you have any comments about where this information should be added? To the text? To the list of her books at the end? I can't visualize how it is going to be presented, as over the 30-50 years many of the books have had several UK editions/reprints, North American, South African, Australian etc editions/reprints, and maybe even a translation. It is potentially a lot of information. It would be very helpful for me to see another WP article as a model, so that I can understand more clearly your suggestion --Slp1 (talk) 02:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, it should'nt be that difficult if major reprints are listed without claiming they are necessarily the last. Was everything published in a North American edition? Also how many languages has she been translated into? These are not minor points, though not the sort of thing academic critics trouble themselves with. Johnbod (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support My points above dealt with. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I peer-reviewed this article on March 27 and thought it close to FA quality, and it has only improved since then. Most impressive piece of work and an enjoyable read. Finetooth (talk) 02:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- You are right, of course. "In the event" -> "as it happened". As far as the refs are concerned, they have different page numbers cited. This seemed a reasonable way to go since the books are used only a couple of times, so I did not put them in the references. But if you have another suggestion... --Slp1 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:48, 22 April 2010 [33].
On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away
- Nominator(s): —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 04:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Take two: Better copy edited and more comprehensive than at its last review, I believe this article definitely meets the FAC criteria. A popular 19th century song that marked a watershed moment in musical history, this article presents some interesting information! It failed to pass the last review primarily due to lack of reviews. If you would be so kind as to review the article, I'd be glad to return the favor and review an article for you. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 04:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment No dab links. No broken links. --Esuzu (talk • contribs) 09:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Am disappointed when articles on pieces of music make no mention of key, time signature, chord progressions, etc. Is it in a major key? Presumably, but there is no indication. Is there a repeated chord progression or two that the piece is built around, and which you could offer to the reader as "C–F–G" or "I–IV–V" etc? Far from being trivia, it helps the reader imagine what this music might sound like. Thanks, Riggr Mortis (talk) 02:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do have this information in my source, and can add it to the article. I also have the sheet music, but am unsure how best to add that. I couldn't find an example in any of the current featured articles, probably because sheet music out on most of our songs is a copyright violation. Old Dan Tucker seemed the best example I could find, as it also nineteenth century and public domain. I hoped having the recordings of this song would help. Personally, I think it is difficult at best to convey musical sound in prose, sheet music being the best option short of a recording of the music. I will scan a copy of the sheet music to add. I will also add a line concerning the key and chord progession as well. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 04:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for that. I don't think the article should depend on audio since in principle Wikipedia is consumed in a variety of formats. (Might you consider uploading all the sheet music since it's PD, and using a commons template to link to it?) Riggr Mortis (talk) 23:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- One other comment. I don't follow "Although the melody connecting the verses together is unique within the piece, it provides continuous unity with the verses". The melody is "unique within the piece", relative to what? Each verse uses a slightly different melody but the melody provides continuity among the verses? Riggr Mortis (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have rephrased that just a bit. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 16:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do have this information in my source, and can add it to the article. I also have the sheet music, but am unsure how best to add that. I couldn't find an example in any of the current featured articles, probably because sheet music out on most of our songs is a copyright violation. Old Dan Tucker seemed the best example I could find, as it also nineteenth century and public domain. I hoped having the recordings of this song would help. Personally, I think it is difficult at best to convey musical sound in prose, sheet music being the best option short of a recording of the music. I will scan a copy of the sheet music to add. I will also add a line concerning the key and chord progession as well. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 04:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: I don't know much about music, but this article appears to be in very good shape. I do, however, have some concerns:
"Dresser joined with other prominent composers to seek a change in copyright laws to protect the reproduction of their work through recording and submitting a petition to the United States Congress in 1902"- Somewhat awkward phrasing, or the wrong tense on one word. Readers could be led to believe that the composers "recorded and submitted" their petition on a wax cylinder. I assume they didn't do this. This is probably a problem with tense: "Dresser joined"... "and submitted".
- "Dresser officially dedicated the song to fourteen-year-old Mary South, a native of Terre Haute and likely inspiration for the Mary mentioned in the song."
- I suggest "likely the inspiration"
"By the end of 1898, nearly one million copies of sheet music had been sold, taking Dresser to a high level of fame."Seems somewhat awkward; I suggest "making Dresser famous."
- The article states that Dresser made $100,000 on compositions, much of it based on this song. This is likely the equivalent of $1,000,000 or more today. But the article also states that Dresser died penniless. Although a thorough discussion of how that happened belongs on Dresser's article, the curious reader (or one of them, at least) wonders how he became penniless like that.
- More later. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:51, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed each of these. He spent very liberally at brothels and saloons, but even more taxing on his wealth, he gave away large sums of money to friends and family. The whole house of cards fell in on him when Howley Haviland and Co went bankrupt in 1905. He gave up on living, pretty much, and died a couple months later. (There are details regarding this on his article, which I also authored. Its still a work in progress.) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:SEEALSO, "Links already integrated into the body of the text are generally not repeated in a "See also" section". Wabash River and List of U.S. state songs are both already linked in the main text. Their use in the See also section is superfluous.
In Sources, "Henderson, Clayton W' should have a period after the initial. Easily remedied.
- Images appear to check out:
- File:On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away, sheet music cover with Bessie Davis, Paul Dresser, 1897.jpg is in the public domain.
- File:Paul Dresser, 1897.jpg is in the public domain (nice work on the sharpening, BTW)
- File:Wabash River Fairbanks Park downstream.JPG is attribution required.
- File:On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away, chorus sheet music.jpg is in the public domain.
- File:Theodore Dreiser.jpg is in the public domain (and not cropped, per the previous copyright holder's request).
- More later. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've corrected those items too. Thanks! At one point the cite templates stopped putting periods automatically, I forgot about that. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. My concerns have been addressed; I can find nothing else to nitpick. The article is well-written, the images are correctly licensed, and the sources and citation format look good. Charles has written compellingly. Importantly (for me) the subject of the article is encyclopedia-worthy. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:54, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've corrected those items too. Thanks! At one point the cite templates stopped putting periods automatically, I forgot about that. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
- "The now more widely known 1917 song Back Home Again in Indiana...". There is a strong time-sensitive element in here with "now"; any time something like this is included in an article, there's always a risk it could become outdated. Would it harm the meaning if it was removed?
- I've rephrased this. It is noteworthy that the song has almost completely supplanted Dresser's song in public use. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no need for two links to Chicago in the Composition and popularity section.
- Fixed
- The link to Tommy White goes to a soccer player who isn't the intended target.
- Fixed
- The end of Controversies has reference 1 used twice in a single string. I would think that only the first would be needed.
- Fixed
- State song: "On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away was adopted as the official state song by the Indiana General Assembly and signed into law by Governor Winfield T. Durbin". Was the song itself signed into law, or was it a bill of some sorts?
- A bill which contained the lyrics of the song, clarified
- "One of the leading causes of state song's fall into obscurity...". Missing a "the" in there.
- Fixed
- Adaptations: "The lyrics consisted of a verse lamenting the the dead...". Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- T Hanks, I think I've fixed each of these. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportLeaning to support: Lovely article; but can you look at this one sentence: "Dresser later began traveling as part of performing acts and composing his own music." Doesn't seem properly phrased. What were these "performing acts"? Was he a member of a troupe, and was composing his music part of the acts? Needs some rephrasing for clarity. Apart from a few minor fixes which I can do myself, I see no reason to withhold support once this troublesome sentence is sorted out. Brianboulton (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I have clarified. Thanks. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 22:54, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fine, now, so full support. The 1902 recording is a gem. Brianboulton (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree! It was quite a find. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:52, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fine, now, so full support. The 1902 recording is a gem. Brianboulton (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. A very interesting read, on a song I've heard but never really thought about. Nice work.
Comments. Leaning support;I have a few nitpicks and questions, but nothing that causes me to want to oppose its promotion. EDIT: Consider all nits picked. Steve T • C 14:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead
Linking could be better. I don't think there's any need to link to United States; a better option would be to link the entire phrase United States copyright law, perhaps with an anchor to an appropriate section of that article (if there is such a section). I'd also question the need to link common terms such as plagiarism and ballad.
- Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
" ... life near Dresser's childhood home by the Wabash River in Indiana. It remained popular for decades and the Indiana General Assembly adopted it as the official state song of Indiana on March 14, 1913."—the repetition of "Indiana" three times so close together jars a little. Perhaps you could lose that final "of Indiana"? By that point, it should be implicit.
- Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"1928 film"—should be 1923; perhaps a link would also be appropriate.
- Your right, I typoed the date; it was correct in the body. Good catch. Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"It was among the earliest pieces of popular music to be recorded, and Dresser's inability to control the distribution of phonograph cylinders led him and other music companies to petition the United States Congress to expand federal copyright protections over the new technology."—this seems a little long. Is there an appropriate place to split? A semi-colon or period before "Dresser's" might be a good choice. Also, Dresser wasn't a company, so saying "Dresser and other music companies" sounds dead weird.
- Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Composition and popularity
"spring ... summer"—think of the children! Sorry, I mean the Australians (and other southern hemisphere readers). Can this be made clearer?
- I had thought of that before actually, but couldn't think of another way to say it concisely. The exact months are not said in the sources, just the seasons, which is why I had worded it like I did. The only thing for certain is that he published it in October. Take a look and see what you think now. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per the MoS, ellipsis points are spaced either side, with a non-breaking space, e.g. "France, Germany
... and Belgium but not the USSR."
- Fixed (I think) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Link the film?
- Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Lyrics and analysis
"While the narrative of the verses are connected"—narratives? I'm not sure of the solution, but the original definitely doesn't work.
- See what you think now —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is anything more known about real-life inspiration for the "lost love", Mary? Did she actually die, or was she a "lost love" in the more traditional sense? It's a little ambiguous.
- Yes there is a bit more on her. Her and Dresser actually never met before the song was composed (he was a friend of her father), but she and he were pen pals, of a sort. She had sent him her photo which he kept on his desk. There was no true romance between them, he just used her name. Dresser's only known long-term relationship was with a Evansville Indiana (not sure of the polite term) prostitute. But they had a falling out about a decade before this song was wrote. Perhaps I should change it to say, the "inspiration for the name", as opposed than the way it reads now implying she is the inspiration for the character. I have changed that. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really! Mandolin I figured was somewhat obscure and deserved a link, and then felt obliged to link the others as well. I've removed the rest now. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs)
- Controversies
I dislike "controversy" and similar as a section title; it's a little sensationalist, and too vague an identifier for the section's content. Perhaps something more descriptive, such as "Disputed authorship and copyright"? Actually, that's a rubbish suggestion, but you get the idea.
"His music copyrights were poorly managed after the bankruptcy of Haviland & Dresser Co."—perhaps "after Haviland & Dresser Co. went bankrupt"? The way it's worded makes it sound like the bankruptcy is something that's already been introduced.
- Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Adaptations
- "
Spanish-American War"—should use an en dash.
- Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See also
List of Indiana state symbols is already used as a link in "State song", so per the see also guideline isn't really needed here. I don't know what removing the section will do to the two portal links, but even now one of them encroaches on the notes section.
- Other
I see you've used Gitelman, but is there anything helpful in the sources you haven’t used from Awadewit's list? Some of them seemed promising (see previous FAC).
- The rest of the prose seems largely fine, apart from the above nitpicks and a little redundancy here and there; it might be worth your giving it one more pass with that in mind. Otherwise, nice work. Steve T • C 09:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gitelman was mostly concerning Wabash's impact on the overall issue of being unable to control phonograph recordings under copyright law. That is noted in the article. The others on the list talk about the song more in passing, and I find the other sources used talk about the same things, but go in more depth, so I stuck with them in the article.
Thanks for your review, I addressed the concerns above, and will give the article a re-read and try to clear out any redundancy. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:47, 22 April 2010 [34].
Halo 3: ODST
- Nominator(s): Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 22:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Halo 3: ODST is the expansion to what was then, the biggest entertainment launch of all time, the release of Halo 3. In this article: marketing blunders, film noir influences, and Peter Jackson. I believe it meets the FA criteria. 'Nuff said. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 22:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
pending remaining fixes.Oppose—I started working my way through the article, but I found too many issues that need resolving. In multiple cases the writing assumes prior knowledge of the game by the reader. I don't this article yet satisfies the FA criteria. Here is a partial list:
The statement "If the player receives damage past their stamina threshold before it can recover..." almost makes sense. Please clarify it."After finding a piece of evidence left behind (a sniper rifle hanging on a lamp post, for example), a flashback is triggered and the player assumes the role of the missing soldier in a daytime setting." Could you clarify the purpose of this flashback? How long does it last? Is the sentence that begins "After the player finds the first piece of evidence..." part of the flashback?"...missing soldier in a daytime setting for the duration of the mission..." Okay so does "mission" here refer the flashback? Or is this a permanent change?
"ODST ships with Halo 3's multiplayer contained on a separate disc." Multiplayer what? Version? Interface?The paragraph that begins "ODST takes place in the 26th century..." needs some clarification."...single ship lands above the city..." How does it "land" above the city? What does it do once it "lands" (besides leave)?The flow jumps from "a single ship hovers above the city" to "while the Covenant still occupy the city". When and how does this occupation occur?
"...storyline follows the carrier to an..." What is the "carrier"?"During the game the player can unlock audio files..." Why does this part matter? Is it just there to add color?
What is a "Pelican transport"?
- Addressed the above. The bit about audio files is important in that it's an optional narrative that is discussed throughout the article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"...toward the ship; at the last minute, Dare changes their trajectory to miss the carrier." Apparently "carrier" == "ship"? Please clarify."...fights through Covenant to find Dare" This needs to be clarified to say "the Covenent forces".What is an "ONI base"?"The squad hijacks a Covenant transport ship..." Wait, only one Covenant ship reached the city. What is this? I think you need to clarify the role of the covenant ship, which I am guessing carried smaller transport ships that landed a force of Covenant inside the city."...destroying the artificial intelligence..." What AI is this? All that was mentioned was a "Superintendent's data core".
- Hopefully addressed the ship issues. The ONI base and AI are mentioned earlier in the characters section (what ONI stands for, and that the Superintendent is an AI.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I finished going through the article. There are a few more issues, but most of the remaining material looks good. Please could you address the following?I think the term "health mechanic" needs a little clarification. It also occurs to me that the mechanism by which a player can die isn't explained. I assume that happens when health drops to zero, but since the "health mechanic" is apparently a new addition, this is unclear. I think that should be clarified in the Gameplay section."released September 22" needs a year.In the sentence that begins "Though Bungie did not consider Recon a full game..." there is a comma-parentheses pair. That seems a little redundant. Perhaps you could rewrite it a little?"...merited its full price as a full-sized game." This doesn't quite make sense. Please clarify.The sentence that begins "Parish said that due to the..." is also not quite right. Please clarify the meaning.
- Comments:
- "underneath the city the Covenant is looking for" Looking for a city, or for something under the city? Ambiguous; if the latter then pls move the last several words.
- I didn't like the "live action" paragraph for several reasons. Se article talk for suggestions.
I'm a huge fan of semicolons, but some of the ways they were employed in this article bothered me. • Ling.Nut 16:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I reworded the first point as you're right, it was a bit vague. Also took a stab at the paragraph at the live action trailer. As to the semicolons, can you give me examples of where you feel they're used improperly/badly used? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I edited the semicolons a little. You probably should re-insert the bit about the Academy Award winning costume designer, and cite it. Good luck with the nom! I'm neither Supporting nor Opposing; sorry, I have midterms to make. • Ling.Nut 04:56, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fully understand. Thanks for the edits! Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 21:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I edited the semicolons a little. You probably should re-insert the bit about the Academy Award winning costume designer, and cite it. Good luck with the nom! I'm neither Supporting nor Opposing; sorry, I have midterms to make. • Ling.Nut 04:56, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I reworded the first point as you're right, it was a bit vague. Also took a stab at the paragraph at the live action trailer. As to the semicolons, can you give me examples of where you feel they're used improperly/badly used? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Three weeks, and this FAC hasn't gained consensus for promotion. Since it has no outstanding objections, David, bring it back in a week, or you can nom another article-- do some reviews! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 11:33, 9 April 2010 [35].
Zapata Rail
- Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Viva Zapata!. Now you hear it, now you don't. Join the real James Bond and Fermín Zanón Cervera in the steaming swamps of Cuba Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. You've
got a dab link to sawgrassand no dead external links. One thing I don't understand: why choose some weird bird when there's also a unique rodent in the swamp? Ucucha 11:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Damn, I must have put in the link after running dabcheck, fixed now. Lol, at least mine is there, rather than was. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are four results in the Zoological Record, and of those you missed:
- Title: Exhibition of a specimen of the Petehora Pipit (Anthus gustavi) from Fair Isle ; also a British-killed specimen of White's Thrush (Turdus varius) and a rare Rail Cyanolimnas cerverai from Cuba.
- Author(s): Hartert, E.
- Source: Bull. Bt. Orn. Cl. Volume: 49 Page(s): pp. 57-58 Published: 1929
I doubt there will be anything of value in that.
- I can't access it, but it looks like it's just a round up of rarity sightings Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Images look good, except that File:Clgar_u0.gif is missing evidence for the claim that drawings by Cada are free to use.
- I've tracked down the Fishbase original and added its location and the correct Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sources:
- What makes the Arturo Kirkconnell piece a reliable source?
- Arturo Kirkconnell is co-author of Birds of Cuba, Andrew Mitchell is Director of the Global Canopy Program, which is referenced in the Birdlife International Cuban Kite evaluation.
- The Tierramérica and IPS News sources don't seem to be the highest-quality reliable sources, but I suppose they could be used if there is nothing better.
- Tierramérica is a joint project of the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and The World Bank (WB), with IPS serving as the executive agency, so not bad Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Other comments:
- Is "limnas" really Latin? It sounds rather Greek to me.
- It does, but Sabine's source for this is as good as it gets - perhaps came into Modern Latin from Greek limnae. a pond, but that's a guess Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps leave the phrase saying it is almost flightless out from the description, since the point is discussed more fully later.
- OK, removed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ridgway cite should be completed with the title of the contribution &c.
- The title added, missed this first time round Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There is little to tell, but what there is told well. I look forward to supporting after the above issues have been resolved. Ucucha 03:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the careful review. I guessed the Kirkconnell/tierramerica/ips would be picked up, but I couldn't see an obvious mechanism for flagging them as reputable. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Thanks for the replies. Ucucha 10:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for support and for completing the Ridgway ref - I wasn't sure whether the family stuff should be included - it's a bit of an odd one for me, where a journal has a single item as its contents Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comment The article information seems comprehensive; I just have a couple specific notes:
*The intro might be helped with a few more sentences, e.g. size, diet, and reproduction, even if it's just to note that there isn't much information. I for one like to see where information gaps exist, rather than think that the intro is incomplete
- para 1 expanded, please check Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*A minor point, but could the range be changed to a more obvious color, like red? It took me a while to find it on the thumbnail map.
- The bird project convention is to use green for resident species, but I could change colour if it's a real issue Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Nah, like I said, a minor point
*"...and become a professional naturalist"
become->became, unless you meant "he had stayed on to become an ornithologist"
- done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"...he sent the Spaniard on a series of trips into the region, where he eventually found the rail"
the two uses of "he" here seem to refer to two different people? Perhaps rephrase or split into two sentences
- para rewritten, please check Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"...his name is commemorated by the new centre in the Ciénaga de Zapata National Park"
centre of what?
- ecological, added
*"Barbour did not believe that the three swamp bird species..."
What three species? Do you mean that the rail fossils at Havana, Pinar del Río and the Isla de la Juventud were not all Zapata Rails but belonged to different species?
- No ,changed to Barbour did not believe that the rail, Zapata Sparrow and Zapata Wren... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"...conditions similar to those found today may once have extended over the large submerged area now represented by the shallow banks, with scattered mangrove keys, which extend towards the Isla de la Juventud and perhaps eastward..."
The two uses of "extend" here make the sentence read a bit odd; perhaps rephrase?
- oops, sloppy - second occurence now replaced with stretched
*"The fossils from Isla de la Juventud are small compared to the limited samples from the extant bird, but the paucity of available material makes it impossible to establish whether the populations were genuinely different."
The wording of this sentence makes it seem you're comparing the sizes of the actual fossil remains (bones and such); perhaps rephrase to something like "the birds fossilized at Isla de al Juventud are smaller than the few extant specimens..."
- now The birds fossilized at Isla de al Juventud are smaller than the single extant specimen... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*link rainy season
- done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"The few records in subsequent years suggested that numbers remain low..."
verb tenses should agree on "suggest" and "remain"
- done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"...but after no official sightings for two decades, a 1998 survey found two more locations in the Zapata Swamp"
First, the conjunction "but" doesn't seem to fit here, as the discovery of 70-90 birds doesn't seem to contradict the statement that their numbers are low. Second, do you mean "found the birds at two new locations"?- but to although, rephrased as suggested
*The name of the catfish is all-capitalized in the image caption, but not in the prose
- all caps both now Jimfbleak - talk to me?
*Also, perhaps one of the images of a living catfish here would be more informative?
- done, when I added the pic I hadn't realised it was a drawing! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"The Zapata Rail is restricted to a single area, with an extent of about 1,000 km2 (386 mi2), and its small population of between 250–1000 individuals is assessed as decreasing"
Are these population figures extrapolated from the 1998 sightings above, or have there been more recent surveys?
- now its small population, estimated on the basis of recent surveys and local assessments of population densities at between 250–1000 individuals... ref tweaked Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"There are plans to encourage more tourists to visit the Zapata area, particularly from Europe, and if the United States allows its citizens to visit Cuba in the future, this could further increase the demand for ecotourism"
Would "impact of ecotourism" be more appropriate than "demand" here? Also, the way the sentence is phrased makes it seem that ecotourism levels are only contingent on whether the US allows travel to Cuba
- now effects of ecotourism. (impact is first verb in next sentence). The interpretation you take is what was intended. The US is large, wealthly and very close, so if US citizens are given the right to travel freely, it's bound to outweigh all other tourism Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"Rising sea levels due to global warming could contaminate the wetland saltwater"
Contaminate the wetland with saltwater, or contaminate the saltwater in the wetland? If the latter, how?
- lost a with, added now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"...the debris left by hurricanes could lead to further damaging fires once the fallen vegetation dries out."
Is the debris left by the hurricane the fallen vegetation? Or is the hurricane debris setting the fallen vegetation aflame? Or are both the hurricane debris and the fallen vegetation contributing fuel for worse fires?
- now Bouza warned that the fallen vegetation left by hurricanes could act as fuel for further damaging fires once it had dried out Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thats all for now. -- Yzx (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for review and useful suggestions, I think I've dealt with all your concerns, let me know if anything more needs doing Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Comments I'm glad you've expanded the description, and added a mention of the catfish in the text. Any weights, even of small samples?
- Apparently not. Van Perlo always gives weights where they are available (and the number of samples, which can be just one, if that's all there is), but does not do so here. The detailed description by Barbour & Peters and by Ridgway would have been from prepared specimens sent back to the US, so live weights would not have been possible. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Tourism and climate change may pose future threats" seems awkward; how about something like "may pose threats in the future"?
- Done as suggested Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How can it be stated that the rails "usually" breed in those sawgrasses, if they've only been recorded breeding once? —innotata 18:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- During the Cuban breeding season, the rail is always seen in this habitat, and is known to return to the sawgrass after the rainy season. The only nest was in sawgrass, and there is no reason to assume that it was atypical. It's difficult to come up with an alternative scenario. Thanks for reviewing, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. Seems fine with me, and has been pretty well reviewed by others. —innotata 14:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- thanks again - one thing with a short article is that it gives less targets (: Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. Seems fine with me, and has been pretty well reviewed by others. —innotata 14:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- During the Cuban breeding season, the rail is always seen in this habitat, and is known to return to the sawgrass after the rainy season. The only nest was in sawgrass, and there is no reason to assume that it was atypical. It's difficult to come up with an alternative scenario. Thanks for reviewing, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:10, 27 April 2010 [36].
2009 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup Final
Do you enjoy association football (soccer)? Want to learn about how Seattle Sounders FC, a successful Major League Soccer expansion team, managed to win the U.S. Open Cup in its inaugural season? Then click the link and start reviewing! SkotyWATC 15:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't, thank you. Nevertheless, I looked and found that the article has no links to dab pages or dead external links. Ucucha 15:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just as an FYI to reviewers, a few days ago, all of the external links to mslnet.com went dead. I've already gone through and updated them with their equivalent on mlssoccer.com (the new league site) or removed them when there was no equivalent. In the cases where I removed the link, I provided an alternate source when necessary. The article's level of verifiability should still be as high as it was when Ucucha went through it. --SkotyWATC 17:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Follow-up: Support. Looks great. Comments by Cptnono
- LOL. Ucucha just isn't a sports fan as I found out during another FAC. Overall I really do like this article. I went through and made some minor MoS related changes and it looks good on that side of things. A couple things did jump out but are easily addressed.Disclaimer: Sounders FC taskforce with the nominator so there might be some unintended bias.
- Reaction and Rewards: I notice the other FAs related to cup finals have a "Post match" section. By merging them, a short section would be eliminated which would look better and be inline with the other articles.
Post match In the post-game press conference, Josh Wicks discussed his ejection, saying: "It was a mistake on my part and I've got to learn my lesson. The fourth official made a call and the ref made the final decision. That was it. I've got no excuses for it. Tremendously, very, very disappointing."[1] One month after the stomping incident, U.S. Soccer announced that Wicks would be suspended from the U.S. Open Cup tournament for five matches.[2] After the victory, many Sounders FC fans gathered at King County International Airport to greet the team as they returned to Seattle.[3] The trophy was put on display at several events around Seattle in the weeks following Sounders FC's victory. On September 19, the cup was presented to Sounders FC fans to carry in the March to the Match prior to a Sounders FC league game at Qwest Field against Chivas USA.[4]
In winning the U.S. Open Cup tournament, Sounders FC earned a berth in the preliminary round of the 2010–11 CONCACAF Champions League.[5] Seattle also received the winner's $100,000 cash prize, while D.C. United received $50,000 as the tournament runner-up.[6] Kevin Forrest, whose game-winning goal against Colorado allowed Sounders FC to qualify for the tournament, received a share of the prize money and a medal, despite being released by the team before the final.[7]
In January 2010, the club's success in the U.S. Open Cup tournament was listed among the many reasons the Washington State Senate passed a resolution honoring Sounders FC.[8]
- ^ Romero, José Miguel (September 2, 2009). "Reviewing tonight's Open Cup match". The Seattle Times. Retrieved January 28, 2010.
- ^ Goff, Steven (October 5, 2009). "Wicks Suspended 5 Games". The Washington Post. Retrieved January 25, 2010.
- ^ Romero, José Miguel (September 4, 2009). "Sounders FC fans welcome the team home from Open Cup". The Seattle Times. Retrieved January 25, 2010.
- ^ Romero, José Miguel (September 16, 2009). "Sounders FC practice, 9-16-09". The Seattle Times. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
- ^ "Seattle Sounders FC Become Second MLS Expansion Team to Claim U.S. Open Cup Crown". United States Soccer Federation. September 2, 2009. Retrieved September 3, 2009.
- ^ Bell, Jack (September 3, 2009). "Sounders Grab a Trophy". The New York Times. Retrieved January 25, 2010.
- ^ Romero, José Miguel (October 9, 2009). "Kevin Forrest gets medal from Sounders FC". The Seattle Times. Retrieved January 25, 2010.
- ^ "Senate Resolution 8667" (PDF), Washington State Government, January 2010, retrieved January 25, 2010
- The "First half" subsection seems a little light. I think it would benefit from a couple more lines. It discusses the attacking well but maybe something mentioning some of the other stats seen in the game reports would fill it out. The sources used in that and the following subsections might look better distributed throughout the section but I'm not sure if this is mandatory if they all discuss the same thing.
- This will take me a few days to address. I'll have to go back through the references and find which ones contain the facts in the paragraph. I will have this taken care of by Sunday evening (Seattle time). --SkotyWATC 15:58, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I got some time today to address this. In doing so, I made a few other improvements to the prose. The references are now all inline, and I added a few more appropriate sentences to both the "First half" section and the "Second half" secion. Let me know if you think there's more to be done here. --SkotyWATC 21:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This will take me a few days to address. I'll have to go back through the references and find which ones contain the facts in the paragraph. I will have this taken care of by Sunday evening (Seattle time). --SkotyWATC 15:58, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have seen this contradicted across Wikipeida so maybe this is a good place to ask, are websites supposed to be put in italics or not? All other referencing looks perfect.Cptnono (talk) 09:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been a little unsure on this as well. Basically I think the "publisher" of the reference should always appear in italics. In the case of news articles, its the name of the newspaper. In the case of websites, it's the name of the organization producing the web site, or the web site name itself when the first is ambiguous. --SkotyWATC 15:58, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quick comment – Don't have time for much, unfortunately, but I noticed this sentence without an apparent citation: "Both the travel distance and the mid-week scheduling made it difficult for Seattle fans to attend." It's probably covered by one of the nearby references, but it would probably just be safer to add a cite for it.Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images No valid FU rationale for File:LHUSOpenCupLogo.png Fasach Nua (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've updated the fair-use rationale for the image. Please review my update to make sure this is satisfactory. Thanks for pointing this out. --SkotyWATC 00:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- illustration fails wp:nfcc, I would imagine it is unlikely that this image could ever meet wp standards for inclusion in this article Fasach Nua (talk) 20:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've tried to follow up with Fasach Nua offline to get clarification on which of the non-free images she's talking about and which criteria it fails. So far no response. I've updated the FUR for the competition logo as requested and I think that's in compliance now. The only other non-free image is File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg. Looking at WP:NFCI, I believe that this is an example of acceptable use of a non-free image for "historical importance as a subject of commentary". The picture shows a historical event which is indeed the subject of the commentary presented in the article. Furthermore, I have carefully written the FUR for the image based on the advice found at the end of this dispatch. --SkotyWATC 02:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- oppose inappropriate use of non-free content Fasach Nua (talk) 18:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you expand your reasoning in response to the nominator? I wasn't sure about the logo myself but the do not use a year specific one so there may be reasoning. Skoty has provided reasoning so it would be appreciated if you could do the same. Also, which image and any suggestions on replacement(s)?Cptnono (talk) 18:18, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- oppose inappropriate use of non-free content Fasach Nua (talk) 18:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've tried to follow up with Fasach Nua offline to get clarification on which of the non-free images she's talking about and which criteria it fails. So far no response. I've updated the FUR for the competition logo as requested and I think that's in compliance now. The only other non-free image is File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg. Looking at WP:NFCI, I believe that this is an example of acceptable use of a non-free image for "historical importance as a subject of commentary". The picture shows a historical event which is indeed the subject of the commentary presented in the article. Furthermore, I have carefully written the FUR for the image based on the advice found at the end of this dispatch. --SkotyWATC 02:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- illustration fails wp:nfcc, I would imagine it is unlikely that this image could ever meet wp standards for inclusion in this article Fasach Nua (talk) 20:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I was asked to comment on this.[37] Personally, I empathize with Fasach Nua's stance. Although logos are permitted as lead images for identification purposes, the use of a series image for a specific event is a bit too broad in my view. I would have much preferred a notable image of the event as the lead. In this case, the US Soccer site has used Brad Smith's image as representative of the Final (link). File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg could fulfill the role, but there is neither url sourcing (telling where the image was obtained) nor copyright attribution. My recommendation: remove File:LHUSOpenCupLogo.png from this article, make File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg the lead image and clearly state its source and copyright holder on its page; if those information are unavailable, then use Brad Smith's photo with clear attribution. Jappalang (talk) 01:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for responding! I've followed your advice and removed the series logo. To my knowledge there was no specific logo for the event (the US Open Cup marketing just isn't that great, sadly). I've updated the source parameter in both of the FURs for File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg with the URL and copyright info. As I was digging up this URL I noticed that the image is actually a "User Uploaded Photo" (I must have missed this when I first grabbed the image). I just sent an email to the club to get clarification on what this means for the copyright. I'm suspicious that this may mean there is no copyright and we are free to use it. Another posibility is that Sounders FC holds the copyright. If they don't reply within the next 24 hours, I will remove the image and switch to the Brad Smith image which has more explicit copyright state (as you suggest). I'm hesitant to move the image into the infobox (lead) however. It seems that the infobox is better left blank if it does not contain a logo. I don't think illustrations make sense there. I'd rather leave it nested in the prose as it is now. Thoughts? --SkotyWATC 04:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It is okay for a Featured Article not to have a lead image (note that the criterion for images in FAs asks for compliance with policies, not for their inclusion). What you plan for File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg is okay for the most part. I suspect the details of who holds the copyright would be detailed in the terms and conditions of the upload screen (if you are a member, I suspect you can try an upload and locate them). Unless the terms and conditions clearly state a surrender of rights, the image is still copyrighted to its photographer (or the club if the terms state so). In any case, the image page should be updated to reflect the status of the copyright holder. Jappalang (talk) 06:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- So far no word back from the club on the copyright details of that image. Here's a link to the terms that apply when you upload an image. It appears that the image uploader retains copyright ownership. Instead of delaying the review longer, I've taken your suggestion and switched out the image for the Brad Smith image you suggested above (it's a better picture anyway). I've also reconsidered the suggestion to move it into the lead section. I think that's a good idea and have moved it there (into the infobox). I think all is in order now as far as the images go. Please reply if you agree or if there is still something outstanding here. Thanks again for the second opinion and helpful advice. If in the future the club gets back to me and they desire to contribute the previous image under GPL and/or CC licenses, I'll come back and update it again. Otherwise, I think we're good-to-go with this one. Thanks again! --SkotyWATC 06:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It is okay for a Featured Article not to have a lead image (note that the criterion for images in FAs asks for compliance with policies, not for their inclusion). What you plan for File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg is okay for the most part. I suspect the details of who holds the copyright would be detailed in the terms and conditions of the upload screen (if you are a member, I suspect you can try an upload and locate them). Unless the terms and conditions clearly state a surrender of rights, the image is still copyrighted to its photographer (or the club if the terms state so). In any case, the image page should be updated to reflect the status of the copyright holder. Jappalang (talk) 06:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for responding! I've followed your advice and removed the series logo. To my knowledge there was no specific logo for the event (the US Open Cup marketing just isn't that great, sadly). I've updated the source parameter in both of the FURs for File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg with the URL and copyright info. As I was digging up this URL I noticed that the image is actually a "User Uploaded Photo" (I must have missed this when I first grabbed the image). I just sent an email to the club to get clarification on what this means for the copyright. I'm suspicious that this may mean there is no copyright and we are free to use it. Another posibility is that Sounders FC holds the copyright. If they don't reply within the next 24 hours, I will remove the image and switch to the Brad Smith image which has more explicit copyright state (as you suggest). I'm hesitant to move the image into the infobox (lead) however. It seems that the infobox is better left blank if it does not contain a logo. I don't think illustrations make sense there. I'd rather leave it nested in the prose as it is now. Thoughts? --SkotyWATC 04:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
just for my info, why is it "Seattle Sounders FC", when AE usually sticks full stops after abbreviations?
- "FC" is the official name. This came up at the main article and we eventually just sent an email to them. Someone said that they verified that this is how it is registered business wise as well. Talk:Seattle Sounders FC/Archive 1#Full name and Talk:Seattle Sounders FC#Full Name is Seattle Sounders Football Club. The best I can figure is that it is simply fun marketing. Cptnono (talk) 16:25, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Road to the final. Without any knowledge of US leagues, it wasn't obvious to me that there were non-MSL teams involved too. Perhaps a sentence or two to avoid having to read another article
- I'm kind of at a loss on what to add. Do you have any suggestions? The first sentence of the section I thought conveyed this point: The U.S. Open Cup is an annual competition open to all amateur and professional soccer teams affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation.--SkotyWATC 16:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What about open to all amateur and professional soccer teams in the five professional leagues affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That feels a bit awkward because after saying "amateur teams" it says "professoinal leagues". I think I found a better solution though after getting some inspiration from the first sentence of Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup. I've changed it to this: The U.S. Open Cup is an annual American soccer competition open to all United States Soccer Federation affiliated teams, from amateur adult club teams to the professional clubs of Major League Soccer (MLS). I think this is probably what you are looking for here. Glad you brought this up and didn't give up on it. This is a good improvement. Thanks! --SkotyWATC 16:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What about open to all amateur and professional soccer teams in the five professional leagues affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm kind of at a loss on what to add. Do you have any suggestions? The first sentence of the section I thought conveyed this point: The U.S. Open Cup is an annual competition open to all amateur and professional soccer teams affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation.--SkotyWATC 16:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sellout crowd but sold out crowd (personally, I'd hyphenate both)
bid included a plan to host the match at RFK Stadium... Sounders FC's bid planned Don't bids propose rather than plan?
mix of reserve players and starting players does starting players mean first-choice?
- Freddie Ljungberg - played for rubbish team, unlike Kasey Keller (: (this may not be actionable)
- Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I'm happy to support this especially with the extra pre-match bit. The FC was really just idle curiosity, it's standard here. I've left two suggestions above really just to help non-Americans understand a little more easily, but no big deal Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll have to make a complaint about the lack of a pre-match analysis in the article. Normally in a final you expect the media and pundits to discuss the strengths and weaknesses and predict how the teams wil/should try to exploit this, but this isn't in the article. It should be, as not all teams play in some generic way. As well, match-ups between midfielders and forwards v defenders are also usually in there. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good suggestion. I've added an "Analysis" sub-section and broken it out with "Venue Selection" under a separate "Pre-match" heading. Let me know if this is what you had in mind. --SkotyWATC 04:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok. Pity about the lack of punditry as the coaches, the likes of Jose Mourinho aside tend to make rather humdrum comments that don't really add anything apart from teh usual "It's going to be tough" "we're looking forward to it" etc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good suggestion. I've added an "Analysis" sub-section and broken it out with "Venue Selection" under a separate "Pre-match" heading. Let me know if this is what you had in mind. --SkotyWATC 04:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I conducted the GA review on this article and while I didn't think it was up to Featured standard then, with the extra bits that have been added and the improvements that have been made, this is one of the best football match articles on Wikipedia. BigDom 16:04, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Per discussions and resolutions above and the fact that this is a quality article. – ĈĠ, Super Sounders Fan (help line|§|sign here) 00:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – Now that I have more time and can more fully read the article, I can say that it does look pretty good. Found a few random little things scattered around:
Comma appears to be missing from the middle of this: "The match was won by Seattle Sounders F.C. who defeated D.C. United 2–1."
Road to the final: "and defeated the Harrisburg City Islanders of USL Second Division 2–1." Feels like "the" is missing, especially considering a couple similar sentence elsewhere have it.
Pre-match: Is the Quest Field link really needed here? We just had one a couple sections up.Analysis: What's citing the quote at the end of the second paragraph?First half: A couple sentences feel like they need more punctuation. This is one of them: "In the 18th minute, Seattle midfielder Sebastian Le Toux played a ball in to teammate Freddie Ljungberg whose shot on goal was barely saved by Wicks who kicked a foot out to block the shot." Without another comma or two in there, it verges on being a run-on sentence. The next sentence after this has a similar tendency.
Note that I am by no means an image expert, so I leave judgement of the non-free images to others. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 20:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The image issue needs to be resolved; pls ping User:Jappalang for another opinion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:38, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the pointer. I just pinged User:Jappalang. I had pinged User:Awadewit yesterday as well. One of them will likely respond this weekend. Thanks for your patience SandyGeorgia on this last issue. --SkotyWATC 19:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
- Citations probably needed
- "Likewise, D.C. United did not finish among the top six 2008 MLS teams, and therefore had to play through qualification rounds before entering the official tournament."
- "The match, hosted by United at Maryland SoccerPlex in Boyds, Maryland, ended with D.C. on top 2–0. "
- "This time they defeated the Rochester Rhinos of the USL First Division 2–1."
- Prose is pretty good
- References check out
- Excellent use of sub articles!
- Images
- File:Starfire Sports Complex - stadium field 01 .jpg is on the left under a level two header there used to be a guideline discouraging that, but can't find it in WP:IMAGES. It should probably move the the right, or drop down a paragraph.
- File:SoundersUSOpenCup.jpg is non-free. I feel somewhat of iffy on the fair use rationale - there are already other images in the article that illustrate it. I will not oppose over it though. If you can get rid of it, I would encourage you to.
Support. Interesting article! Good job. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:37, 20 April 2010 [38].
Dancing the Dream
I am nominating Dancing the Dream for FA because I have worked on this book article for several months and feel that it meets the FA citeria. Billed as "an inspirational and passionate volume of unparalleled humanity", Dancing the Dream was written by Michael Jackson and received somewhat negative reviews upon its release in 1992. Little has been published about this book in relation to the more "juicier" aspects of Jackson and his life, but I feel that this article is comprehensive in documenting Dancing the Dream. Thanks, Pyrrhus16 19:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments My first reaction is that there is very little pictures. I understand that might be hard to get but isn't there any image at all? Perhaps one of his mother or one of Elizabeth Taylor?
- As the article is quite a short one, I don't really feel there is a need to stick another picture in for the sake of decoration. There is no free use image of his mother, and if I were to add an image of Elizabeth Taylor, it would either squish the "Poems and reflections" header or be squished by the infobox. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)@[reply]
Also: The Many Faces of Michael Jackson has a google book link. [39] and so has Michael Jackson: The King of Pop [40] and Michael Jackson: unauthorized [41]. I would prefer it if they could be added even if it isn't a must.
-
- Great.
The Spin magazine could surely be present in "References" than in "Notes" right? Same with Billboard in that case. (I'm not 100% sure of this though)--Esuzu (talk • contribs) 22:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I suppose they could but I've always put newspapers and magazines into the notes section, and books into the references section. I find it easier and neater that way. Thank you for your comments. :) Regards, Pyrrhus16 (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, striking.
Support Very good article. A bit on the short side I'd say, but with over 3 million articles on the English Wikipedia, the shorter the better. I'm so proud that the wikiproject I founded is producing such great work, and I should commend you personally Pyrrhus for being an amazing editor on all things related to MJ in Wikipedia. Keep up the good work. I hope to see you at FAC many more times.UBER (talk) 01:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your support and praise. It is very much appreciated. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 09:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. While I'm not very familiar with GA and FA books, from what I can see the article meets the FA criteria because it is well sourced, well written, has a neutral point of view and is informative. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 17:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- How can there be "approximately" 46 written pieces? Are some things only approximately written? Or do you mean there are 45, or perhaps 47? A number as specific as 46 cannot be approximate... how many poems, how many essays and how many instances of song lyrics are tere?
- Thank you for having a look at the article. There are 46 written pieces by Jackson in the book. I've changed "approximately" to "exactly", to reflect this. I wouldn't want to say exactly how many specific instances of poems, reflections and lyrics I feel are in the book, as not all poems rhyme and one may argue that such-and-such a reflection is actually a non-rhyming poem. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "were said to have been previously unreleased"? Who said it?
- Oppose 1a. I worked on a couple paragraphs for a while (see this diff). I think similar improvements could be made to the entire article, plus some minor reorganization, etc. [Note that I don't even consider my own contributions to be completely polished and ready for the spotlight, though I do believe the text is significantly improved.] • Ling.Nut 00:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments I'm going through tidying up bits of prose, but a few things stick out.
- "A poem expressing Jackson's feelings of loss following the death in 1990 of HIV/AIDS sufferer Ryan White" - shouldn't it just be AIDS? I'm not particularly fond of forward slashes in prose, but it isn't a sticking point.
- Done.
- "The piece had previously been published by his mother in My Family" - more information needed here. Perhaps just a footnote, but we could do with knowing a little more about My Family.
- I've noted in the prose that the book was her 1990 autobiography.
- "The 100 photographs in Dancing the Dream were said to have been previously unreleased by the publishers" - the lead says "about" 100 pics. Which is it?
- Changed to "The photographs in Dancing the Dream (approximately 100 in total) were said by the publishers to have been previously unreleased..."
- "as some had been featured previously in a 1985 Jackson calendar, and also the magazines Ebony and People. Others were stills from the music videos of "Remember the Time" and "Black or White", as well as images taken from a performance by Jackson at MTV's tenth anniversary celebration" - more dates would be good here. Just the years will be fine.
- Added dates.
- "Dancing the Dream featured artwork from the professional artist Nate Giorgio, who as an amateur artist had developed a professional relationship with the entertainer in the 1980s. While living in Broome County, New York, Giorgio had sent Jackson some of his portraits, and the two later became friends" - you may not recognise that as I've copyedited it a fair bit, but was it Giorgio or Jackson who lived in Broome County?
- It was Giorgio who was living in Broome County. I've changed to "While Giorgio was living in Broome County, New York, the artist had sent Jackson some of his portraits, and the two later became friends."
- "Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson to create further works for his estate, including artwork for the 2009 tribute book The Official Michael Jackson Opus" - as above, but to check I haven't changed the meaning was Giorgio commissioned by Jackson's estate, or was he commissioned to produce works for Jackson's estate (ie his house)?
- It was Jackson's estate that commissioned him to do the artwork. I've changed to "Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson's estate to create further works, including artwork depicting the singer for the 2009 tribute book The Official Michael Jackson Opus."
More to come. Parrot of Doom 18:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose for the following reasons: prose needs work throughout, not just isolated sentences. Some examples:
- Dancing the Dream is fore-worded - fore-warded?
- My mistake, the hyphen shouldn't be there. Corrected. Parrot of Doom 16:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Better without the hyphen; would be best not to use as a verb at all, in my view. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm only part-way through a copyedit on this article. I've been side-tracked by a few things, but as you know copyedits usually take a few run-throughs to get right. Hopefully when I'm finished the prose will be adequate for FA, the facts I'll have to leave to the nominator(s). Parrot of Doom 16:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Poetry and essays[1][2] dealing with children - dealing with children? Also, if citations exist for the poetry and essays, then perhaps consider naming the specific pieces from the book.
- Changed the sentence to "Poetry and essays[1][2] on children, animals and the environment feature prominently among the 46 creative texts in Dancing the Dream." Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I still don't understand why there are two citations after "poetry and essays". Is it a controversial point? If this is the section that describes the contents of the book, then use the primary source without citations. Also, the wording is still vague - what is a creative text?
- Jackson muses on the environment - muses on the environment?
- one poem that envisions seals pondering - seals pondering?
-
- Sorry, still have trouble with seals pondering.
- The photographs in Dancing the Dream (approximately 100 in total) were said by the publishers to have been previously unreleased - were said by the publishers?
- Changed to "The publishers of Dancing the Dream said that the photographs in the book (approximately 100 in total) were previously unreleased" Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I had a look at the source, and I'm afraid there's a problem here with WP:Close paraphrasing. See [42] p. 234
- and the two later became friends.[5] Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson's - repetition here
- It was stated that despite the book being a bestseller, - stated by whom?
- Other issues:
- The piece had previously been published by his mother in her 1990 autobiography My Family, and was not the only material in Dancing the Dream to have appeared elsewhere. -- which other pieces and where and when were they published?
-
- More WP:Close paraphrasing.
- Do sales figures exist? The lead mentions the book was best-seller, but that doesn't seem to be developed.
-
- You're welcome. Unfortunately more WP:Close paraphrasing.
- Do reviews exists from book industry sources such as Publishers Weekly?
- Giorgio was later commissioned by Jackson's estate to create further works, including artwork depicting the singer for the 2009 tribute book The Official Michael Jackson Opus.[5] - this isn't really germane to the scope of the article.
- Moonwalk was edited by the former First Lady of the United States Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and became a bestseller upon its release.[7][8][9][10] - again, although an interesting piece of information, not relevant to an article about this book.
- The reference entry for the book itself is incomplete: needs publisher, publication date, place, and ISBN.
- Finally, I see this was nominated as a GAN and I'm curious what happened. It seems not to have passed. Were there still issues to be resolved? If so, I'd suggest it go back to GAN and then on to a peer review. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:21, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The article was quickly failed at GAN because the reviewer admittedly noticed that it had been waiting for over two months to be reviewed, and did not know whether I was around to address any issues. I was able to fix the few actionable objections raised in the failed review within the space of an hour, but decided not to bring it back there if there was a chance of it receiving a similar quick-fail review with no time allocated for discussion of minor issues. Pyrrhus16 (talk) 20:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Final comment - Thanks for your hard work today, but the article needs the following to be comprehensive: a full description of the contents (poetry, essays, photographs); a section on the thematic (themes) content of the pieces; and a complete rewrite of the close paraphrasing. Once that's done, I suggest another run at GAN and then to PR. Sorry, but in my view, there's still more to be done to make this a really dynamite article, and honestly anything about Michael Jackson deserves the best effort. I took the opportunity to read the sources, and I think you can eke quite a bit more material out of the little that exists. If you want help, let me know. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:17, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:49, 16 April 2010 [43].
Rio de Janeiro bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics
- Nominator(s): Felipe Menegaz 01:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rio de Janeiro bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics is a well-researched article, a survey of the best sources, which gives the reader a detailed representation of Rio's Olympic campaign. Felipe Menegaz 01:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dablinks or dead external links. What are the "credentials in the neck" mentioned in one of the alt texts? Ucucha 01:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, those "credentials in the neck" are the identification (See Credential) that appear in three of them. Felipe Menegaz 01:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, but most people have only skins and bones and the like in their necks, and I don't see anything else in these people's necks. In any case, the detail should perhaps not even be included in the alt text. Ucucha 02:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- ✓ Done. Removed detail. Felipe Menegaz 02:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, but most people have only skins and bones and the like in their necks, and I don't see anything else in these people's necks. In any case, the detail should perhaps not even be included in the alt text. Ucucha 02:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Good graphics and charts. Haven't looked very closely at the rest but I can't find any big problems. --Esuzu (talk • contribs) 16:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Excellent work. --Carioca (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
- Do we need all of those cities and countries linked in the first paragraph? The one sentence listing them has a whole lot of blue. I can see linking more exotic places like Azerbaijan, but Spain and the U.S.?
- Well, if I want to access those articles while reading? Felipe Menegaz 23:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "This bid is the first that has proceeded to the Candidature phase". Shouldn't "has" be removed now, since the process has been over for a while now? This doesn't seem like past tense to me.
- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 23:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes Inside the Games (references 148 and 155) a reliable source?
- ✓ Done. Removed "Inside the Games" sources. Felipe Menegaz 21:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- One of the Manual of Style's provisions discourages collapsable tables in article text. This would include the large venue table in the middle of this article.
- ✓ Done. Removed "collapsable" options. Felipe Menegaz 23:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- More than half the sources (126 of 230, according to my count) are to either the IOC, Brazilian Olympic Committee, or the bid committee. This is a lot of primary sources for an FA to be carrying, especially for a topic that gained widespread attention. Was none of this covered in any media outlets. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Do not quite understand what you mean. Could you explain? Regards; Felipe Menegaz 23:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Simply put, I'm asking why this many sources from the three main organizations involved in this bid process are being used, instead of articles from newspapers, magazines and such. Did no one in the media write about any of these topics? We should be using the best sources possible; what they are depends on what is avaliable, of course. If media articles exist, it is preferable to use them over stories from the organizations connected to the process. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Do not quite understand what you mean. Could you explain? Regards; Felipe Menegaz 23:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Bad case of Overcite. Please learn (and tell all your friends): One cite per statement – find the most relevant and most reliable one – , unless the statement is so controversial that it needs extra support. • Ling.Nut 23:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not know that... I will resolve it soon. Thanks; Felipe Menegaz 23:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- ✓ Done. Several sources removed. Felipe Menegaz 21:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Oppose per copyvio. It took me two minutes to find copy/paste. I'll give you the example, but please do not fix that example and ask me to reconsider. If it takes me two minutes to find blatant copyvio, I lose my AGF with respect to the remainder of the text. Please withdraw the nom and go over every single statement. In other words, please be responsible for every cite. "A television tower will be built at the IBC/MPC complex to complement broadcasting operations and provide panoramic studios." If that's public domain, then I'll reconsider. But at this moment I'm looking at a copyright at the bottom of the page... • Ling.Nut 23:52, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What? Copyvio? "A television tower will be built at the IBC/MPC complex to complement broadcasting operations and provide panoramic studios." is a copyright violation? How? You gave me a fright. Felipe Menegaz 23:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hello Felipe. I'm sorry to tell you the bad news, but yes it does appear that this text is a copyright violation. It appears to be a direct copy/pasted quote from this page. Please read WP:COPYVIO carefully. I'm also afraid that merely fixing that particular quote is unacceptable. You'll have to go back through every single line of the article, one by one, and check each one for WP:COPYVIO. The reason for all the trouble is that if one copyvio problem exists, the odds are extremely high that there are many... The text was apparently added by you at 09:46, 7 May 2009. • Ling.Nut 01:05, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What? Copyvio? "A television tower will be built at the IBC/MPC complex to complement broadcasting operations and provide panoramic studios." is a copyright violation? How? You gave me a fright. Felipe Menegaz 23:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article was widely used in the internet, been copy-pasted by several reliable and unreliable sources. Even large media organizations, like the British Broadcasting Coorporation (BBC), used the text from this article. Take a look:
“ |
|
” |
— Wikipedia, Rio de Janeiro bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics February 8, 2009. |
“ |
|
” |
— BBC, Candidates for 2016 Olympics Updated on September 30, 2009. Published on February 13, 2009. |
The original text was added by me on June 29, 2008. [44] After months, I made sure that BBC used my text because of an error. Actually, the Brazilian Olympic Committee did not choose Rio de Janeiro over São Paulo, as I wrote in 2008; because São Paulo was not disputing (I made a mistake, it was during the 2012 bid process). However, BBC stated on its article: "The Brazilian Olympic Commitee chose Rio de Janeiro ahead of Sao Paulo three years ago to bid for the 2016 Olympic Games."
Well, there is no copyvio. Actually, the text displayed on www.brazil2016olympics.co.uk is a copy from Wikipedia. As you can see is not only that sentence but the entire paragraph was copy-pasted. I wrote those sentences about one year ago, and this website must have added the text much later. Is there any way to find out what date the website has been created? Cheers; Felipe Menegaz 12:25, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See other websites: [45] [46] [47] [48] [49]. Check out the dates to note that these websites are copies of Wikipedia. One has even the references ([10][11]). Felipe Menegaz 13:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Copyvio comments
- Current copyrighted Rio 2016 text, copyrighted in 2008: "Through its mirroring effect, the symbol also forms a stylized clover"
- Current Wiki text (identical): "Through its mirroring effect, the symbol also forms a stylized clover". Mmm, the words "through its mirroring effect", which now exist at the Rio site and Wikipedia, were altered on Wikipedia at 08:36, 20 February 2009. The original wiki text added much earlier (July 2008) uses the words "through its repetition" instead of "mirroring effect". Oops, the wayback machine for April 2008 has the text precisely identical to Wikipedia's original version: "Through its repetition, the symbol forms a stylized clover". To me it appears to be serial copyright violations... even copying updates to copyrighted sites.
- I'm sorry. It should only take 2 or 3 weeks at the very, very most (and probably much less, if you can find a couple good copy editors) to find and correct any and all remaining issues. • Ling.Nut 00:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: I will make some general comments and afterwards, will try to make a deeper scrutiny. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:56, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of the first things that I see is the excess of inline citations. There's just too many! If a statement is not controversial, one reference is more than enough. I don't think an article about an Olympic bid needs over 200 inline citations. This should be trimmed down.- ✓ Done. Several sources removed. Felipe Menegaz 21:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Love the template tables, but the one with the schedule relies too much on colour to convey information. It would be better to use symbols to complement the colours, in order for colour-blind people to differentiate event competitions from event finals. The shaded cells for the gymnastics gala and the Olympic ceremonies are almost blended with the white background. Why not add the pictograms along the sport name, as well?- ✓ Done. Pictograms and text-symbols added. Felipe Menegaz 21:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can't you do something to reduce the length of the "Official documents" in the "References" section? Another layout, if you do not want to remove all those links...- ✓ Done. Removed sub-links. Felipe Menegaz 21:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Great job. Nearly 100 sources removed and still very well referenced. I'll now do an in-depth proofread. Parutakupiu (talk) 22:16, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not surprising that I hardly found any major grammar and syntax issues, considering the times this article has been reviewed before. Still, there are a few little details that grabbed my attention:
- Lead
When you first list the applicant cities, put the country name inside curved brackets, to better distinguish cities from countries in the sentence flow.- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"This wasbid isthe city's first bid that proceeded..."- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Candidature process
On the 3rd paragraph, unlink Chicago, Madrid and Tokyo, already linked on the previous paragraph.- Actually, in the second paragraph there are links to "City" bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics while in the third paragraph they link to the city's main article. Should I really remove them? Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, one cannot guess that by just looking at them. I'm not sure how to solve this, so I'll just leave it. Parutakupiu (talk) 01:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, in the second paragraph there are links to "City" bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics while in the third paragraph they link to the city's main article. Should I really remove them? Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The Rio de Janeiro 2016 Candidate Filehashad three volumes..."- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Candidature concept
Change the entire 1st paragraph to past tense.- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The slogan reflects the Brazilian people's way of getting passionately involved in whatever they do." — reflected- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"It was projected onto a Rio de Janeiro 2016-themed Ferriswheelwheel immediately..."- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the 3rd paragraph, unlink "World Cups" and "World Championships". They point to generic articles, so no need to have them at all. Also change some of the last sentences to the past tense.- ✓ Done. Felipe Menegaz 00:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead
- That's about it! Fix these and you have my full support. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Great work. Parutakupiu (talk) 01:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Query: is "the" needed in the article title? It seems unnecessary. If you decide to move the article to a new name, without the "the", please ask me to do it, so I can get everything in the right place vis-a-vis the FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The title of the article is a standard from Wikipedia:WikiProject Olympics... I think that if we want to move the article's name, we need to ask the WikiProject first. Regards; Felipe Menegaz 15:38, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Request. I would like to ask to put this nomination on hold until I finish rewriting the article. This should take two weeks. Best regards; Felipe Menegaz 01:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please bring it back after the two weeks is up: FAC is backlogged. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [50].
Japanese battleship Yamato
The lead ship and namesake of the Yamato class, the largest battleships in the history of maritime warfare. This article has been in the works since January 2009. Passed its GAN in January 2009, passed its MilHist ACR February 2009, and has just undergone a substantial copyedit courtesy of EyeSerene and The ed17. I have the entire subsequent week off from school, so I should be able to deal with any concerns promptly. Respectfully nominate for FA Status. Cam (Chat) 22:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. A dab link to Okinoshima. No external links. Alt text is currently not part of the featured article criteria, but the text in this article is probably on the long side; consider removing some pieces that are chance details of the picture rather than essential parts of what the picture conveys. Ucucha 22:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. I've already read this recently, but I'll give it another go tomorrow if I get time Cam. But at the moment.... well, I'd hope to see information about the wreck, its discovery, the museum, the significant memorials in Japan and at least a passing reference to the recent movie in the prose. I think the movie especially worthy of inclusion in this instance. I've been going off popular culture sections myself (was never too keen on them), but I do think there's room for legacy in an article - and the movie had a significant impact in Japan, being one of their first big budget movies that described their nation's sacrifice in the war. It provoked a great deal of interest in the ship and it's mission (bolstering reporting and attendance of the museum in Kure) and importantly it's been responsible for breaking down taboos in a country that has always been fairly quiet about the war previously. I don't have any reliable sources for all of this I'm afraid, but if you want to look for them the Mianichi Daily News, the Daily Yomiyuri and the Japan Times sites are good places to start. The Yomiyuri certainly had a lot in its print paper when the movie was released about all of this (although I sadly note far less online), and this really was very well reported back in 2005/2006, on the news and in the papers. I know that you can only work with the sources available, but I feel that without the stuff mentioned above this article is failing on 1b (comprehensive). Anyway, I'll have a proper read and let you know, but thought I should mention this early. Cheers, Ranger Steve (talk) 23:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll see what I can do. I should note that we have quite a bit of that stuff on the main Yamato class battleship page, and it can easily be moved over to this page as well if need be. The difficulty with the stuff on the wreck is that I don't possess any reliable sources dealing with the wreck itself and its discovery. There was something at one point, but the sources weren't considered particularly reliable. If I can find anything that meets RS with regards to the wreck discovery, I'll definitely add it in. Cam (Chat) 02:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cam that looks really good already. Bit pressed for time today, but I'll give you a few more comments in a day or two. Ranger Steve (talk) 20:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll see what I can do. I should note that we have quite a bit of that stuff on the main Yamato class battleship page, and it can easily be moved over to this page as well if need be. The difficulty with the stuff on the wreck is that I don't possess any reliable sources dealing with the wreck itself and its discovery. There was something at one point, but the sources weren't considered particularly reliable. If I can find anything that meets RS with regards to the wreck discovery, I'll definitely add it in. Cam (Chat) 02:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly Support. The article looks great Cam (and everyone else who's worked on it), although I do have a few niggles:
- There are some discrepancies in the size of the main guns. It's usually correct but on one occasion they're listed as 18 inch instead of 18.1 (first sentence of armament) and the ammunition is listed as 18 inch in Trials and Initial operations, when most of the time the metric version is used to describe the guns. I'd have adjusted them, but because a template is used I'm not sure what's wrong with it.
- I'm not sure what's going on there. I may have to manually convert a few of them. It actually only occurs once, and I've manually converted it instead. Cam (Chat) 22:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, I assumed the ammunition example was a template as well (but didn't check and thinking about it there is only one measurement, so blatently not a conversion!) I've adjusted it to metric though. Ranger Steve (talk) 09:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what's going on there. I may have to manually convert a few of them. It actually only occurs once, and I've manually converted it instead. Cam (Chat) 22:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Related to that, is there a reason for so many Japanese ships' guns being listed metric first? It might just be the books I read but I usually see imperial first (which is also in line with most WWII British, American and German ships on wiki), and as this article appears to be British English....
- Mostly because the Japanese used metric units when designating their guns. The big ones, for example, are known officially as the 40cm/45 calibre (even though they were actually 46cm!). It's a wee bit on the confusing side, but it's how they roll. Cam (Chat) 20:05, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thought that would be the case. No problem then. Ranger Steve (talk) 09:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Mostly because the Japanese used metric units when designating their guns. The big ones, for example, are known officially as the 40cm/45 calibre (even though they were actually 46cm!). It's a wee bit on the confusing side, but it's how they roll. Cam (Chat) 20:05, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Given that two anime shows and a film get a mention, I think the Yamato Memorial Tower really deserves to be included at the end of the article as well.
- Is there anything about the survivors? Who picked them up etc...
- Battle of Leyte Gulf - the description as the largest naval engagement in history is a little subjective (and not really supported by the article itself). Could I suggest either "one of the largest naval battles in history" or "the largest naval battle of WWII"?
Otherwise, looking good! Ranger Steve (talk) 11:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Brief comments
- Conversions are needed in the infobox for displacement, weapon size and armor thicknesses.
- The conversions in the armament section are presented English units first, but those in the infobox use metric units first, as did the Japanese themselves. Some of the manual conversions are incorrect.
- The coordinates in the infobox seem a bit redundant since they're also at the top of the page.
- You're using both English and British spellings, pick one and stick with it. Conversion templates default to British English. You can change this by adding |sp=us to the templates if you like. And don't forget to hyphenate adjectival forms of units when the unit is spelled out.
More later--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cleaned-up extraneous refs, added as needed for gun sizes. Deleted unnecessary conversions; my rule of thumb is once in the infobox and once in the main body otherwise it gets too distracting. Maybe we need for formalize rules for conversions in the the MILMOS to prevent people from wasting time on this sort of stuff--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)?[reply]
- Comment - Cam, don't forget about the discovery of the wreck! (didn't combinedfleet have a page on it?) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 05:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support All of my issues noted below have been resolved. --Brad (talk) 02:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Oppose Comment Since there is such a heavy reliance on combinedfleet.com what makes this source reliable? --Brad (talk) 21:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_18#CombinedFleet.com; it's also written by published authors, I believe. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 21:31, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1-CThe article relies upon a secondary source for the majority of references. 17 books appear in the bibliography yet are hardly referenced in comparison to combinedfleet.com. At least two books are listed which aren't even cited in the article. The book The Battleship Yamato, entirely devoted to the ship is cited once.
- Alright; a few things in response to that. Firstly, relying on secondary sources has never been an issue with regards to WP articles. Relying overly on primary documents, according to WP:OR, should be avoided where possible. Secondly, I would add that many of the instances with regards to combinedfleet are double citations. If you wish, I can remove the combinedfleet one and simply keep the other one. Thirdly, it's all a case of what's accessible. I'll do my absolute best to get my hands on The Battleship Yamato, but if combinedfleet - which is incredibly detailed and exhaustive - is the best that I can do, then it's the best that I can do. It's been relied on extensively for many other articles that have gone through the FAC process and become featured articles. I'm a bit confused as to how relying on one exhaustive source instead of another constitutes a huge issue. That said, I'll do my best to fix what I can. Cam (Chat) 04:37, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright. I've cut down on its usage as much as I am able to (ie where other sources were capable of fulfilling the same role). Cam (Chat) 04:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The other difficulty, as Ed and I are discovering pouring over our sources, is that very few sources deal with the Yamato in any great deal. I have seven books that mention the leviathan of a warship, but very few of them do so for more than a sentence here and there or a paragraph. The only fully comprehensive source I have access to, unfortunately, is combinedfleet. To be honest, it's one of the few exhaustive sources actually available on the nit-pickings of ship movement of the IJN. Cam (Chat) 05:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (edit conflict) "hardly referenced in comparison" - Garzke and Dulin, p. 54 are referenced 18 times alone...add in pp. 56 and 57, and it rises to 31.
- AFAIK, unless the tabular records themselves have been published, the kind of information they give aren't directly in print. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 05:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The other difficulty, as Ed and I are discovering pouring over our sources, is that very few sources deal with the Yamato in any great deal. I have seven books that mention the leviathan of a warship, but very few of them do so for more than a sentence here and there or a paragraph. The only fully comprehensive source I have access to, unfortunately, is combinedfleet. To be honest, it's one of the few exhaustive sources actually available on the nit-pickings of ship movement of the IJN. Cam (Chat) 05:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright. I've cut down on its usage as much as I am able to (ie where other sources were capable of fulfilling the same role). Cam (Chat) 04:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Brad, CombinedFleet is the only source in English that I know of that has published a TROM for Yamato with that level of detail. I have most of the books printed in English that present the history of the Imperial Japanese Navy, and I just checked them all to try to replace some of the CombinedFleet citations. I was able to replace around four of them, but the rest of the CombinedFleet citations appear to have information that is contained in no other source in English, especially exact dates and the names of Yamato's skippers.
What do you expect this article's editors to do, learn Japanese, then travel to Japan and visit the war history library of the Defense Ministry to personally scrub the Senshi Sōshō for the same information?Cla68 (talk) 12:10, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cla68, Brad brought up a perfectly reasonable point. In my experience, adopting even a mildly combative tone, such as that seen in your last sentence, doesn't do anyone any good. It may be that the replies Brad has received, from you and other editors, as well as the recent changes, will satisfy him; would you take it amiss if I suggested you strike or recast your last sentence and await his return? All the best, Steve T • C 13:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I struck it, but I don't agree that his objection is reasonable. The editors pointed out that the site has been accepted as a reliable source and it is the only source for the information in question. Cla68 (talk) 22:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I think it's a reasonable point to raise that an article uses a lot of one source, while seeming to ignore others, even if one accepts the subsequent explanation as to why (i.e. the others don't carry the necessary information). Still, thanks for the strike; your previous comments stood convincingly enough without that sentence. All the best, Steve T • C 23:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me make it clear that I know that being an FAC reviewer is an onerous and thankless task, and I appreciate that Brad is willing to be one. If I could, however, say something to all FAC reviewers in general, please be careful not to pull out a hammer to pound the protruding nail, as in the Japanese proverb, "The protruding nail must be hammered down." In this case, the high number of CombinedFleet (CF) citations stuck out very visibly and so earned itself extra attention, and unnecessarily in my opinion. If this article's editors had combined all their citations in a single footnote at the end of each paragraph, like I usually do, then the number of CF citations wouldn't have been as visible and probably wouldn't have been noted. Cla68 (talk) 03:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with the sourcing can be summed up quite elegantly in the last paragraph of the class article:
- "On the eve of the Allies' occupation of Japan, special service officers of the Imperial Japanese Navy destroyed virtually all records, drawings, and photographs of or relating to the Yamato-class battleships, leaving only fragmentary records of the design characteristics and other technical matters. The destruction of these documents was so efficient that until 1948 the only known images of the Yamato and Musashi were those taken by United States Navy aircraft involved in the attacks on the two battleships. Although some additional photographs and information from documents that were not destroyed have come to light over the years, the loss of the majority of written records for the class has made extensive research into the Yamato-class somewhat difficult. Because of the lack of written records, information on the class largely came from interviews of Japanese officers following Japan's surrender."
- Since the documents for the ships - all of them - are largely missing other sources must be adopted to fill in the gaps so that these articles can comply with WP:RS standards. As for this article, I agree with Cla68 that we have no need for heavy artillery to settle this dispute. It appears that combined fleet is a reliable source, and that the information in the article is well cited to a vareity of reliable sources. From where I sit, opposition on 1-C grounds is unwarrented in this article, although I intend to take a closer look at all aspects of the article before I cast a !vote on the matter of this article's FAC. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright; a few things in response to that. Firstly, relying on secondary sources has never been an issue with regards to WP articles. Relying overly on primary documents, according to WP:OR, should be avoided where possible. Secondly, I would add that many of the instances with regards to combinedfleet are double citations. If you wish, I can remove the combinedfleet one and simply keep the other one. Thirdly, it's all a case of what's accessible. I'll do my absolute best to get my hands on The Battleship Yamato, but if combinedfleet - which is incredibly detailed and exhaustive - is the best that I can do, then it's the best that I can do. It's been relied on extensively for many other articles that have gone through the FAC process and become featured articles. I'm a bit confused as to how relying on one exhaustive source instead of another constitutes a huge issue. That said, I'll do my best to fix what I can. Cam (Chat) 04:37, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2-CThere is no consistency in the references. Some have missing page numbers and are out of continuity. Smith 2007, p. 1. is the example given @ Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. References should appear as [1][2][3] and not [2][3][1] etc. --Brad (talk) 00:09, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- From my viewing of it, there aren't any inconsistencies with regards to dates and pages format that are out of line. All of the refs are now in order numerically. Cam (Chat) 04:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- They are nowhere near complete. The author Thompson is not referenced but is in the biblio. Skulski references have (1988) while in the biblio, (2004) is given. References are missing publication dates, have outdated or missing retrieved on dates. Again, look at Smith 2007, p. 1. layout. Your refs should be inline in that manner. Notice commas and periods and where to use them. --Brad (talk) 21:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright. I've removed the unreferenced book. I've added the earlier publication date for Skulski (my guess is it was a later republication), while all retrieval dates are now on the web references. As to the consistency of the print references, I'm slightly confused as to what your objection is. I've used the format of - to continue your example - Smith (2007), p. 1. in each one of my four previous FA articles. So long as they're formatted consistently, it shouldn't be an issue. As to the lack of periods at the end of some of them, I have begun to clean that up and will finish doing so tonight. Cam (Chat) 23:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- They are nowhere near complete. The author Thompson is not referenced but is in the biblio. Skulski references have (1988) while in the biblio, (2004) is given. References are missing publication dates, have outdated or missing retrieved on dates. Again, look at Smith 2007, p. 1. layout. Your refs should be inline in that manner. Notice commas and periods and where to use them. --Brad (talk) 21:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- From my viewing of it, there aren't any inconsistencies with regards to dates and pages format that are out of line. All of the refs are now in order numerically. Cam (Chat) 04:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
- "While drydocked, Captain Nobuei Morishita—former Captain of the battleship Haruna—assumed command of Yamato." You know you've got a serious problem with your captain when he needs drydocking. I'm mentioning this first, out of order, because I want to mention that the long dashes here are fine with me, because I can substitute parentheses and it still makes sense. Also, if taking a breath where there's a long dash fits the cadence of your written English, that's fine. There are other places where neither a breath nor parentheses would make sense, and I'd use commas myself in these places, but I've seen the YouTube video about dash Nazis so I won't oppose over this :)
- Sorry that may have come across as snotty, I'm trying to say that a reader who is unclear about drydocking might assume that it's something the captain was personally involved in. As a general rule, to maintain clarity for the widest audience possible, phrases and clauses that modify something should modify a word that's somewhere close by, and in the same sentence. - Dank (push to talk) 03:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In case anyone cares, the first mention of "tonnes" in the text isn't converted. As long as conversion information is in the sidebar (and it is, though not to long tons), this isn't an issue I care about, but I know some people care. Also, I don't like "Displacing over 70,000 tons", because "ton" can mean tonne, short ton or (in naval contexts, on Wikipedia) long ton; I don't think anyone will require you to give the conversions, but I'd prefer that you say which ton you mean.
- I've changed it to tonnes, though it could also possibly be metric tons if that works better. Cam (Chat) 21:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Since this is British English (not sure why btw), tonnes. "Metric tons" is for American English (since only Americans need to be reminded about "metric"). - Dank (push to talk) 22:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've changed it to tonnes, though it could also possibly be metric tons if that works better. Cam (Chat) 21:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Since this is British English, I'm out of my league here, but I would have thought "class's" was the possessive, not "class'".
- Ah. I'll fix that. Part of my problem is that Canadian English is sort of a variant of the two, so I usually end up having about half british/half American english. I'll fix this. Cam (Chat) 23:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey, let's have more Canadian English articles, they're easier for me since Chicago has always been influential with Canadian journalists. - Dank (push to talk) 13:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah. I'll fix that. Part of my problem is that Canadian English is sort of a variant of the two, so I usually end up having about half british/half American english. I'll fix this. Cam (Chat) 23:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#one-hundred_sixty-two for a question about one of my edits. (more to come) - Dank (push to talk) 22:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I wasn't entirely sure what to do with that. From my perspective, it mostly just looked like a horribly convoluted number-system which was really irritating to read in a flow-like manner. Thanks for changing it though, because one-hundred sixty-two really didn't look that much better. Cam (Chat)
- Okay, and was "increased" (instead of decreased) right? I guessed. - Dank (push to talk) 23:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I wasn't entirely sure what to do with that. From my perspective, it mostly just looked like a horribly convoluted number-system which was really irritating to read in a flow-like manner. Thanks for changing it though, because one-hundred sixty-two really didn't look that much better. Cam (Chat)
- Hopefully we'll be working together on lots of articles, Cam, so say something now if you liked things better before I started messing with them. - Dank (push to talk) 20:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No. That works excellently. Cam (Chat) 21:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. When I get to the end, I'm going to go back (unless someone says something) and remove all the conversions on the gun barrel widths, since those are commonly used as the names of guns, and since we're having trouble with the readability of sentences like this one: " When refitted in 1944 and 1945 in preparation for naval engagements in the South Pacific, the secondary battery configuration was changed to six 155 mm (6.1 in) guns and twenty-four 127 mm (5.0 in) guns, and the number of 25 mm (0.98 in) anti-aircraft guns was increased to 162." - Dank (push to talk) 21:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- P.S. Changed my mind on this. People ought to be able to see U.S.-friendly units in the U.S. and SI units in most other parts of the world, and that ought to be handled automatically by the MediaWiki software by surpressing any output of the conversion template that the user has said they're not interested in or isn't likely to be interested in. I'm not holding my breath, but I'm not spending my evening compensating for missing software, either. - Dank (push to talk) 04:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. When I get to the end, I'm going to go back (unless someone says something) and remove all the conversions on the gun barrel widths, since those are commonly used as the names of guns, and since we're having trouble with the readability of sentences like this one: " When refitted in 1944 and 1945 in preparation for naval engagements in the South Pacific, the secondary battery configuration was changed to six 155 mm (6.1 in) guns and twenty-four 127 mm (5.0 in) guns, and the number of 25 mm (0.98 in) anti-aircraft guns was increased to 162." - Dank (push to talk) 21:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No. That works excellently. Cam (Chat) 21:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To deal with the objection above about references, do you mind if I add a few from Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships, 1922-1946? - Dank (push to talk) 02:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I don't know what "surface combatants" are. I'm imagining that means ships, or ships plus subs that have surfaced, or ships plus things that aren't ships. - Dank (push to talk) 20:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Battleships/cruisers/destroyers. They are surface ships that don't use aircraft to attack things. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 21:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand what "George" means in: "The intervention of a squadron of Kawanishi N1K1 "Shiden" fighters ("George") flown ..." - Dank (push to talk) 20:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The Japanese called them "Shiden," the Allies called them "George." —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 21:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does anyone know if the reference tells us whether the 5–6° list was to starboard or port? - Dank (push to talk) 21:43, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Nevermind, I can deduce from the next paragraph that it was port. - Dank (push to talk) 22:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not 100% clear on "strafing had taken a toll of the crews who manned Yamato's unprotected 25 mm anti-aircraft weapons, sharply curtailing their effectiveness". Are you saying there were so many casualties that not enough people could be found to operate the guns, or they had people available but they didn't want to operate the guns because of the strafing risk, or the guns were damaged? - Dank (push to talk) 22:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I'm hoping that as I get better at this, I can change less when I copyedit for FAC. A really good copyeditor knows all the ways that will work, and so they can preserve as much as possible the tone of the author. I'm being a little conservative and a little anal; the plan is to relax when I see more of what passes muster and what doesn't. That's the plan :) - Dank (push to talk) 02:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what to do with the last sentence, "... thus the battleship's end serves as a metaphor for the end of the Japanese empire". I understand the desire to finish with a bang, with something that sums up the significance, but if you keep this, then I think it would be better to attribute this sentiment to someone. In the previous sentence, I thought 4 adjectives was one too many; you might want to pick a different one to toss.
- You might be asked for more consistency in whether SI or U.S. units come first ... but not by me. - Dank (push to talk) 04:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support per my usual disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 03:45, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Red links: Nomura Jiro, Gihachi Takayanagi, Nobuei Morishita, Chiaki Matsuda and Miyazato Shutoku is any of these people notable enough to get an own article in the future? If not they shouldn't be red links. --Esuzu (talk • contribs) 16:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment One unmentioned cultural reference is the Yamato cannon in the Blizzard game Starcraft. I can't be sure it relates to the ship, but it is the most powerful weapon employed by the battleship - http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Yamato_Cannon Neumannk (talk) 20:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a thought. That seems like a bit of a stretch, given that the connection would be difficult to establish on anything more than speculation. For now, I'm leaving it out. Cam (Chat) 21:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I feel these trivia (simply "X appeared in Y"s), aside from usually being impossible to get a reliable source, are not encyclopaedic. The project should not become indiscriminate in its information; context is key. Jappalang (talk) 03:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Per WP:MILPOP there are some occasions where such an appearance is encyclopaedic, but you are correct that I do not feel as though the current appearance that is mentioned complies with this section of the WP:MILMOS which is a part of the WP:MOS. -MBK004 04:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree - the Yamato Museum in Kure has an entire gallery dedicated to various representations of the ship in popular culture and its shop has a range of artifacts from these appearances for sale (though I settled on a Yamato snow dome). From memory, Space Battleship Yamato received by far the most attention in the museum. Nick-D (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The point is not simply that mentioning the existence of the referenced item is not encylopaedic; it is the manner of presenting such items (and more importantly their context) that becomes an issue. Compare this (with context) and this (the original form). Jappalang (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree - the Yamato Museum in Kure has an entire gallery dedicated to various representations of the ship in popular culture and its shop has a range of artifacts from these appearances for sale (though I settled on a Yamato snow dome). From memory, Space Battleship Yamato received by far the most attention in the museum. Nick-D (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Per WP:MILPOP there are some occasions where such an appearance is encyclopaedic, but you are correct that I do not feel as though the current appearance that is mentioned complies with this section of the WP:MILMOS which is a part of the WP:MOS. -MBK004 04:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I feel these trivia (simply "X appeared in Y"s), aside from usually being impossible to get a reliable source, are not encyclopaedic. The project should not become indiscriminate in its information; context is key. Jappalang (talk) 03:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a thought. That seems like a bit of a stretch, given that the connection would be difficult to establish on anything more than speculation. For now, I'm leaving it out. Cam (Chat) 21:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Comments:per Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Japanese battleship Yamato/archive1#Jappalang's comments, I have some issues (more serious are the confusions in content) I would like to be addressed before I am comfortable in making decisions on this article. Jappalang (talk) 03:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC) The ed17 added a citation needed tag here; is anyone tackling this? Jappalang (talk) 11:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed it. It was the wrong number, as it turns out. Cam (Chat) 17:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As of this version, I find this a comprehensive, well-written, illustrated article about one of the iconic battleships of WWII (at least to me). It does seem to go into too much detail at times, but I think that can be easily trimmed if someone deems it detrimental to the general reader, so it would not affect my support. Jappalang (talk) 03:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed it. It was the wrong number, as it turns out. Cam (Chat) 17:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image review: all images are either in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 03:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I've backed up statements and added a few sentences based on Whitley's work in Battleships of World War II. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 04:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment There seem to be over a hundred instances of "fireroom" (not including other instances of "fire room") on Wikipedia, but no explanation of what the heck one is. Could we pretty please either make a stub, or... is there a page giving a list of naval terminology or describing warship features... or something!... and start making some wikilinks Tks• Ling.Nut 01:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll add it to the Glossary of nautical terms for now, then possibly stub it off later. Cam (Chat) 04:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I've been over the article twice and did not see anything that warranted an oppose. My only objection to the article is that it could have been so much more if the IJN had not anhilated the paperwork on these mighty sisters so thoroughly, but that is beyond the scope of our ability to adequately adress. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:15, 25 April 2010 [53].
Cleomenean War
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it meets Featured article standards. I created the article in 2007 and it passed a GAC and currently holds A-Class status and failed a FAC here in December 2009. Since then however, I believe that all the major issue brought up in the unsuccessful attempt have been fixed. Kyriakos (talk) 11:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. It certainly has some great maps now. I fixed a few bad links. The external link to [54] doesn't seem to go where it should go. Ucucha 12:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -- Impressed by the prose; although I've made a few mods here and there, I think it reads extremely well. The maps and illustrations are also useful, and I can see that all have alt text. No dabs either, according to the checker. A few things:
- Presentation-wise, the article might benefit from alternating the positions of the maps and pictures, left then right.
- Done. Where possible, I've altered the position of the images. Kyriakos (talk) 23:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Walbank describes this raid as being 'an impressive demonstration, but it had no effect other than to make it even more clear that Cleomenes had to be defeated in a pitched battle -- Firstly, a direct quote should be in double inverted commas; secondly, where does the quote end?
- Done. I fixed the quotation marks. Kyriakos (talk) 23:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't gone deeply into the sourcing, but will try to do so in next few days. All up though so far, very well done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:23, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Returned to check over citations. The style looks odd to me in places, and it's certainly inconsistent:
- The odd part for me is the bullet-pointing of multiple citations, e.g. #13. Multiple citations are usually treated identically, each with their own ref tags.
- Reply. I find this method more effective than having multiple citations on the page for the same fact.
- You seem to end most citations with a full stop (period) but not all (e.g. #1 vs. #2) - should be consistent.
- Done.
- Sometimes you use "p." for page number, sometimes not - again pls be consistent (I would say use "p.").
- Done.
- Sometimes when you use "p." you have a space before the actual number, somethimes not - be consistent.
- Done.
- Sometimes you have a comma between author and title, sometimes a full stop (e.g. #13) - should be commas consistently.
- You can merge identical citations, e.g. Hammond p.342 in #5 and #7, or the William Smith ones. I'm happy to show you how if you're not sure.
- Reply. With these ones, I think that the article is fine as they I prefer them these citations to be together appear in the order they are in, in the article rather than in a mass. Kyriakos (talk) 07:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There are still other little things but if you can look after these and go through all with a fine tooth comb to be consistent, it'll be a big improvement. I'm just about ready to support but these niggly little things need to be tidied for the article to qualify among WP's best work. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]
- Comment - there seem to be places where it isn't exactly clear who is being referred to, Antigonus III Doson of Macedon usually involved. For example: "He wanted the Macedonian king to come to the Peloponnese and defeat Cleomenes, in return for control of Acrocorinth.[20] This was not a sacrifice that the League was willing to make, however." He presumably refers to Aratus, even though Antigonus is closer in proximity to the pronoun? The next line also doesn't make much sense. Did the League ultimately agree or not? Clarification is desirable. Lambanog (talk) 19:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- Support for an engaging and comprehensive article. Ucucha 23:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "These defeats took such a toll on Antigonus that he considered advancing his attack of the palisade and moving his army to Sicyon."—don't you mean here that he considered abandoning the attack?
No other issues; will support once this is clarified. Ucucha 15:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. A nicely done article. I made a few minor tweaks. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support no real sticking points, although I'm not clear what Ptolemy III had against remote Macedon. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:04, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The citations are strange. Please do not leave raw links in citations; these should be expanded to incorporate the links:
- Smith, William, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, "[1]".
- SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, great article. Very engaging and a pleasure to read. I do have just a few comments though, but none that would prevent me from supporting this fine article.
"Taking advantage of a rumor that he had been killed during the fighting, Aratus attacked and seized Mantinea" - who is "he", Cleomenes?"Cleomenes recalled his uncle Archidamus V from his exile in Messene to ascend the Eurypontid throne..." This confuses me just a bite. You have not indicated that the Eurypontid kingship was vacant so why would he ascend the throne? Was that king also killed, and not just his son, or was the previous heir about to ascend?"Employing the men he considered most likely to oppose him, he captured Heraea and Asea." - was he hoping they would get killed, or just bribing them? This is not clear.I noticed Laconia is linked multiple times throughout the article; you should only link the first occurrence."He also armed 2,000 of the ex-helots in Macedonian style to counter the White Shields" - what is Macedonian style? a type of military formation and armament? Perhaps there is an article you could link to?"The capture of Megalopolis shook the Achaean League" - "The destruction of Megalopolis shook the Achaean League" might be more accurate"The Spartans, overwhelmed by the deeper Macedonian phalanx, were routed, but Cleomenes managed to escape with a small group of men." - maybe say "deeper ranks", someone unfamiliar with Greek battles may not understand what is meant by just "deeper""...most of their army was routed." - but the following sentence says it was mostly destroyed, not routed. A reword might be in order."With Cleomenes' defeat, Sparta's power collapsed and it fell into the hands of tyrants" - do you mean a "group of tyrants" all at once, or "successive tyrants"?- Plutarch as a source for a lot of the article is a little worrying. Obviously he would be the source used by most other in their works about this war though. However, using secondary sources interpreting Plutarch would add a layer of scrutiny to Plutarch's possible biases. I am not concerned enough to oppose over this, but it would be better to rely less on such an antiquarian source. WP:PRIMARY comes into play a bit here.
Overall, again, very great article! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 16:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The maps need some refinement. From a comment above, i take it the maps are new, so they must be a great improvement already. But, the top map in the article shows "Arcadia" and "Achaean League" labelled but not "Achaea", and the 2nd map shows "Achaea" and "Achaean League" labelled but not "Arcadia". You need to have both "Achaea" and "Arcadia" on the same map, so that they can convey something, that Arcadia is the mountainous central portion and that Achaea is the northernmost, coastal part, and to dispell possibility that they are just labels moved around within the big red region to fit wherever they can fit. Also, the peninsula labelled just "Boetia" includes Attica and in particular Athens, which could usefully be labelled (they are names used at that time, right?). Thumb map at right here shows locations. I for one tend to forget whether Athens was in Arcadia, Achaea, or Attica, and wondered where it was on the map here. Putting a label for Athens onto the map would avoid my discomfort, and perhaps other readers'. Hope this helps! --doncram (talk) 17:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
ephors are referred to as "who" and "which".... should be consistent.they (ephors) were sworn to uphold the rule of Sparta's kings...shouldn't it be had sworn?- In 226 BC, the citizens of Mantinea appealed to Cleomenes to expel the Achaean garrison from the city. One night, he and his troops crept into the city and removed the Achaean garrison before marching off to Tegea..... This could be either more detailed, or more succinct. In 226 BC, responding to a request from the citizens of Mantinea, Cleomenes and his troops crept into the city and removed the Achaean garrison (how did they do that?). Before marching off to Tegea? Is that relevant to Mantinea? This whole thing is a tad confusing.
why does coughing up blood force a return to Sparta?- general prose comment. Sentences like this: Antigonus proceeded to capture Mantinea... Why not Antigonus captured Mantinea... ? This is a question throughout. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Prose looks OK. Greek Phalanx image: if it's not a photograph, it would be nice to know that it's a ?painting, or a graphic representation, or something. Looks like a still from a TV animation. I suppose we don't know who did it ... Tony (talk) 03:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [55].
Porbeagle
I am nominating this for featured article because I think it's pretty comprehensive and meets the criteria. It's the first article I've nominated for FA status so we'll see how it goes. Yzx (talk) 04:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments (I'll review more fully later) I fixed the links to disambiguation pages. Several external links to elasmo-research.org are currently dead, probably temporarily. Ucucha 12:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: If this is your first stab at a featured article, it's a very commendable effort: well-presented, well written, and apparently comprehensive and well-sourced. Without any specialist knowledge I can't comment on its accuracy or technical quality, but here are a few prose suggestions from the early sections of the article:-
- Lead
- "In the North Pacific, the closely related salmon shark (L. ditropis) takes its place." The last phrase, "takes its place", doesn't seem appropriate. Perhaps reword as "In the North Pacific, its equivalent is the closely related salmon shark (L. ditropis)."
- Rephrased
- "Behavior" is a mass noun that should not be pluralised.
- Fixed
- Distribution and habitat
- I am slightly confused by this sentence: "The porbeagle has a global amphitemperate (missing from the tropics) distribution, mostly within 30–70°N and 30–50°S latitudes, except in the North Pacific where its niche is assumed by the salmon shark." What is the parenthetical insert referring to? And I thought we had established that the North Pacific salmon sharks were a separate counterpart, yet the "except in" phrasing appears to classify them with the porbeagle.
- The parenthetical insert is to define "amphitemperate", since general readers probably aren't familiar with the term. I've rephrased it so hopefully it's clearer.
- "as far north as southern Chile..." Southern Chile is the most southerly landmass in the southern hemisphere bar Antarctica, so "as far north as" reads oddly, especially when listed with places like Brazil which are much farther north.
- Took out the "southern"
- "much of the population spends the spring in the deep waters of the Nova Scotia continental shelf, and migrate north..." Should be "migrates"
- Fixed
- Biology and ecology
- "Natural annual mortality is low..." It is hard for the non-expert to understand why the figures which follow this statement are "low" (10%, 15%, 20%) unless there are comparisons with other marine species.
- The source only states that this mortality figure is low and doesn't give any comparative figures. I'm reticent about finding mortality estimates for other species myself as that might constitute original research.
I hope a reviewer with the appropriate professional credentials comes along soon, to do justice to what on the face of it seems a high-quality article. Brianboulton (talk) 11:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I did the GA review for this article and suggested that Yzx take it here; I found the prose mostly clear and compelling and saw no obvious gaps in coverage. I did a check in the Zoological Record to find whether there any unused sources, and found a few that may be of service:
Title: Tag and release of pelagic shark species by the observers on the Japanese tuna longline vessels in the Atlantic Ocean.- Author(s): Matsunaga, Hiroaki
Source: International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas Collective Volume of Scientific Papers Volume: 64 Page(s): 1690-1692 Published: 2009- This article includes only very brief tag data for the porbeagle, and would be of more utility to the blue shark article
Title: Diversity, distribution, richness and abundance of deep-sea chondrichthyans along south Patagonian Archipelago, Cape Horn, Diego Ramirez Islands and the northern area of the Drake Passage.- Author(s): Reyes, Pablo R.; Torres-Florez, Juan P.
Source: Revista de Biologia Marina y Oceanografia Volume: 44 Issue: 1 Page(s): 243-251 Published: 2009- This article is in Spanish, and in any case is probably too narrowly focused
Title: A comparative study of the ocular skeleton of fossil and modern chondrichthyans.- Author(s): Pilgrim, Brettney L.; Franz-Odendaal, Tamara A.
Source: Journal of Anatomy Volume: 214 Issue: 6 Page(s): 848-858 Published: June 2009- Far too esoteric, I think, at least for a species article; it might have a place on an article about shark anatomy
- Title: Morphological identification of fins of the main traded pelagic shark species in chile: blue shark (Prionace glauca Linnaeus), shortfin mako (Isurus oxyrhinchus Rafinesque), and porbeagle (Lamna nasus Bonnaterre).
- Author(s): Hernandez, Sebastian; Haye, Pilar A.; Acuna, Enzo
- Source: Gayana Volume: 73 Issue: 1 Page(s): 33-39 Published: 2009
- Couldn't gain access to this one, though this paper on the same subject basically confirms that records of this shark's fins being traded are accurate
Title: The rise and fall (again) of the porbeagle shark population in the Northwest Atlantic.- Author(s): Campana, Steven E.; Joyce, Warren; Marks, Linda; et al.
Source: Fish and Aquatic Resources Series Volume: 13 Page(s): 445-461 Published: 2008- This also appears as a chapter in Sharks of the Open Ocean, and its main points are recapitulated in an earlier chapter that is used in the article; I want to keep the fishery section as concise as possible, as it's very numbers-heavy already
Title: Trade in and conservation of two shark species, porbeagle (Lamna nasus) and spiny dogfish (Squalus acanthias).- Author(s): Fowler, Sarah; Raymakers, Caroline; Grimm, Ute
Source: BfN-Skripten Volume: 118 Page(s): 1-58 Published: 2004- This is basically the same information as in the IUCN reports, which is not surprising as the same people worked on them both; there are a few tidbits worth mentioning though
Title: Age under-estimation in New Zealand porbeagle sharks (Lamna nasus): is there an upper limit to ages that can be determined from shark vertebrae?- Author(s): Francis, Malcolm P.; Campana, Steven E.; Jones, Cynthia M.
Source: Marine and Freshwater Research Volume: 58 Issue: 1 Page(s): 10-23 Published: 2007- Information from this is already used in the article (via secondary source); the broader discussion of possible inaccuracy in older vertebral aging methods I think is better saved for elsewhere
Title: On the occurrence of the porbeagle, Lamna nasus (Bonnaterre, 1788) (Chondrichthyes: Lamnidae), off Italian coasts (northern and central Mediterranean Sea): a historical survey.- Author(s): Storai, Tiziano; Celona, Antonio; Zuffa, Marco; et al.
Source: Annales Series Historia Naturalis (Koper) Volume: 15 Issue: 2 Page(s): 195-202 Published: 2005- This article confirms that porbeagles are rare in the Mediterranean, which is also stated in the IUCN report
Title: Morphology and evolution of the jaw suspension in lamniform sharks.- Author(s): Wilga, C.D.
Source: Journal of Morphology Volume: 265 Issue: 1 Page(s): 102-119 Published: July 2005- Too technical for anyone but a fish anatomist (which I'm not). In any case its interesting parts seem to be the comparative/evolutionary implications, which belong in a higher-order taxon article
And some more. I think many do not add anything important that is not in the article, but there are probably a few that do contain interesting bids that are not yet in. I can send you the complete list and assist in getting some of those references if you wish. Ucucha 02:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've left brief comments on why I didn't use most of the above sources; basically they were either too technical or covered existing ground. Feel free to bring any additional articles you think might be interesting to my attention though, and thanks for the effort. -- Yzx (talk) 04:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support all issues resolved; comprehensive and engaging article. Ucucha 22:01, 11 April 2010 (UTC) I read through the article again and found one possible problem: You write that the diversification of Lamna during the Paleogene took place because of the formation of the Arctic ice sheet, but our article Arctic sea ice ecology and history says the sheet formed no more than 4 mya. Ucucha 19:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, the article says that the evolution of Lamna itself was during the Paleogene, and that the time frame for the divergence of its two extant species is unknown. So it could've been around 4 mya (or not; it's just a theory at present). -- Yzx (talk) 21:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Looks good from a writing standpoint; other than the images, which I'm not really qualified enough to review, the article is cohesive and seems to be of excellent quality. :) ceranthor 13:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Very well written and interesting shark article; I hope it's the first of many at FAC. The only thing I can suggest is a cite and link to the protologue, available here. Sasata (talk) 23:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Overall, the article looks very well done. However, the text does not precisely support the data given in the range map. The text states, "In the North Atlantic, the northern limit of its range extends from the Newfoundland Grand Banks off Canada, through southern Greenland, to Scandinavia and Russia; the southern limit of its range extends from New Jersey, through the Azores and Madeira, to Morocco. It is found in the Mediterranean Sea, but not the Black Sea. North Atlantic sharks may stray as far south as North Carolina, Bermuda, and the Gulf of Guinea."
- The range map shows the Porbeagle's occasional range as far south as Jacksonville, Florida. It does not show them occasionally present as far south as the Gulf of Guinea. Although Bermuda is listed in the text alongside "possibly straying" areas, on the map it is shown in dark blue, the color of confirmed populations. Either the range map is incorrect, or the text needs some work in this section. They cannot both be correct. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:19, 16 April 2010 [56].
Myles Standish
- Nominator(s): Historical Perspective (talk) 19:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've recently given this article an overhaul, adding narrative and images. It was peer reviewed here. I think it now meets FA criteria. Would appreciate any thoughts and comments. Thanks, Historical Perspective (talk) 19:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Alt text is not currently part of the FA criterion, but it's probably a bit on the long side in this article; you could probably trim it a bit. Ucucha 21:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response. Yeah, I probably went a bit overboard with the alt text. I've shortened them. Historical Perspective (talk) 17:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
what makes http://www.northamericanforts.com/East/masouth.html a reliable source?
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response. Good point. I've found a published source that does the trick and switched it out. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 17:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
- General
- Your lead has five paragraphs; WP:Lead suggests a maximum of four. You should try to integrate one of those paragraphs into the others, or remove it.
- In reading the lead, one thing strikes me as missing. What was his religion? Did he hold the same beliefs as the other pilgrims, or was he more of a hired gun?
- ..."he had married his second wife, Barbara..." Any idea what her maiden name was?
- A link to the Massachusetts portal may be appropriate in the see also section.
- Perhaps a link of the first mention of Merchant Adventurers to Company of Merchant Adventurers to New Lands?
- Images
- The images are all on the right. Stagger a few to the left, perhaps the image of the mayflower, the lithograph, and the lighthouse? See WP:IMAGE for guidance
- Image size is also being forced. This too is discouraged by WP:IMAGE, unless there is a good reason to do so.
- File:Beleg.Oostende11.jpg has no source listed
- Citations needed
- Need a ref here: "When he embarked with them in the summer of 1620, he brought with him his wife Rose."
- "The Mayflower first made landfall at the tip of Cape Cod, now the site of Provincetown, Massachusetts."
- "As captain of the militia, Standish regularly drilled his men in the use of pikes and muskets."
- "Having defended Plymouth from Native Americans and other Englishmen, Standish's last significant expedition was against the French. "
- "Standish built a house and settled there around 1628."
- "He was buried in Duxbury's Old Burying Ground, now known as the Myles Standish Cemetery."
- "The first of these monuments was also the largest."
- "A second, smaller monument was placed over the alleged site of Myles Standish's grave in 1893. "
- "Bradford found the latter particularly disturbing and, in 1628, ordered Standish to lead an expedition to arrest Morton."
- Prose
- "Standish's true-life role in defending Plymouth Colony (and the sometimes brutal tactics he employed) were largely over-written by the fictionalized character created by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow in his book The Courtship of Miles Standish." - "over-written" may not be the right word here. Maybe "ignored" or "covered up" or "left out"?
- Prose looks good
- All other images check out
- Sources look good
- Alt text present
Very nice article! Its a great read. My items here are pretty minor. If you address them I'd be glad to support. Good job! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 14:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response Thanks very much for your critique of the article. I think I've covered your suggestions.
- General:
- I've taken out one of the paragraphs from the lead and incorporated that text down below in the "Establishment of Plymouth Colony" section.
- I added some text regarding Standish's religion (it's unknown, but at least I've explained that up front now).
- Barbara's maiden name in unknown too. But I've added mention of that.
- Added a link to the Massachusetts portal
- I came across that page on the Merchant Adventurers and was intrigued, but honestly, I'm not sure if it was the same group. "Adventurers" was a common term for investors. I'm not sure the Pilgrims' group was the same as this company. So, when in doubt, I decided not to include the link.
- Images:
- Good point on the images being all on the right. I moved the ones to the left that you suggested.
- Three of the images were forced. One was by accident, so I fixed that. The Nemasket expedition lithograph I enlarged a bit because it's a very detailed image and could hardly be seen at the default size. The Standish portrait size is forced to maintain the infobox at a reasonable size.
- Sadly, there's an entire category of photos on the Commons regarding the Siege of Ostend and none of them have source info. Drat! So, I used an image of the English commanding general instead. I just thought there should be some image related to Standish's military service in Holland.
- Citations: I've added citations in every instance you suggested.
- Prose: I think the word I was looking for was "obscured." I've changed it.
- I think that about covers it. Any further suggestions, let me know. And thanks for your help! Historical Perspective (talk) 23:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, looks great! Keep up the good work. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 00:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support All my concerns were addressed. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC) Comments this is a fascinating article. I enjoyed reading it, and I'll be happy to support when prose issues are dealt with. I hate to be a spoil-sport on this, really I do, there are simply several areas of rough prose or awkwardness that you could fix easily to improve the readability. What is interesting to me about this problem is that it occurs only in a few sections of the article.[reply]
- weak verb constructions in lead and first section
- On February 17, 1621, he was officially voted the first commander of the Plymouth Colony militia and was continually re-elected to that position for the remainder of his life. On February 17, 1621, the Plymouth Colony militia elected him as its first commander, and continued to re-elect him to that position for the remainder of his life.
- repetition
- in the first second, second sentence. This could be two sentences, which would reduce the occurrence of the word "and", making it more readable.
- Condensing multiple sentences into one:
- The passengers of the Mayflower established a colony usually referred to at the time as "New Plymouth" (although the name and spelling often varied). The site of their first settlement is now Plymouth, Massachusetts. The first settlers of Plymouth Colony are commonly known in the United States as "Pilgrims."
- In what is now Plymouth, Massachusetts, the passengers of the Mayflower—later known in the United States as Pilgrims—established a colony contemporaneously referred to as "New Plymouth" (although the name and spelling varied).
- exception -- A 12-year truce was declared between Spain and the Dutch Republic in 1609 which (if Standish was still serving with the English army by that time) would have put an end to Standish's active service. // The 12-year truce between Spain and the Dutch Republic, declared in 1609, would have put an end to Standish's service, although scholars are uncertain if Standish was still in active service. OR The length of Standish's service has yet to be determined, but a 12-year truce between Spain and the Dutch Republic, declared in 1609, would have ended it.
- Is it certain he was no longer inmilitary service in 1609? a Just because there was a truce doesn't mean he did nt go off and sell his sword to someone else.
- How does one appear firmly? Do you mean certainly?
- Should not these paras Standish first appears firmly in the written record in 1620 when, living in Leiden, Holland, he was hired by the Pilgrims to act as their advisor on military matters.[19] At that time he already was using the title of "Captain." When considering candidates for this important position, the Pilgrims had at first hoped to engage Captain John Smith. Smith had been one of the founders of the English colony at Jamestown, Virginia, had explored and mapped the North American coast and welcomed the opportunity, when approached by the Pilgrims, to return to the New World.[20] His experience made him an attractive candidate. However, the Pilgrims ultimately passed on Smith partly because his price was too high but also because they feared that his fame and bold character might lead him to become a dictator.[20]
Standish, having lived in Leiden for some time, was apparently already known to the Pilgrims.[15] When he embarked with them in the summer of 1620, he brought with him his wife Rose.[21]
- Seeking a military advisor, the Pilgrims had at first hoped to engage Captain....the Pilgrims initially had hoped to engage //or// the Pilgrims at first had hoped to engage.... Smith had helped to found the English colony... and had explored and mapped.... When the Pilgrims approached him to return to the New World, Smith expressed an interest. His experience made him an attractive candidate, but the Pilgrims ultimate decided against his candidacy: his price was too high and his fame and bold character might lead him to become a dictator. Standish, who first appears clearly in the written record in 1620 was living in Leiden (Holland), with his wife Rose. The Pilgrims hired him to act as their military adviser. When he embarked with them in the summer of 1620, he brought with him his wife.
- 50 would survive the first winter. .... Only 50 survived the first winter.
- Standish tended to Bradford during this time and it was the beginning of a bond and decades-long friendship...// Standish tended to Bradford during his illness and this was the beginning of a decades-long friendship.
- Do you see my points here? These are problems throughout. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response Yes, I see your points. I think, by and large, the problem is using the passive voice. I have often fallen into that trap. (Or should I say...I fall into that trap often!) So, I've used your wording suggestions in just about all of the suggestions you made above. A few comments:
- "On February 17, 1621..." replaced with your wording. Much better. Thanks.
- "The passengers of the Mayflower established..." Replaced this paragraph with your wording. Again, much better.
- "A 12-year truce was declared..." These sentences were really clunky, I agree. I was never really happy with them. Your re-wording is a vast improvement. I've inserted it.
- To answer your question on his service after 1609...there are no records to indicate what he was doing, so I haven't ventured a guess here. All we know is that, according to some of the chroniclers of Plymouth Colony, he served in the Dutch War in the first decade of the 17th century. How long is anyone's guess.
- Took out "firmly." I realize an adverb wasn't even necessary here.
- I used most of your re-wording of the paragraph about Standish being hired and Captain Smith being an alternate. I did not switch around the order of the sentences because I think to start off the paragraph by abruptly switching the subject to Smith would be jarring. So, the previous paragraph ends with Standish, we pick up the next sentence with "Standish first appears in the written record..." and then I use your wording re: Smith.
- "50 would survive..." got rid of that, replaced with yours.
- "Standish tended to Bradford..." same as above.
- Having made nearly all the edits you suggested, I then went through the article looking for other examples of the passive voice (searching for the words "was," "were," and "would"). I removed the passive voice and re-wrote several other sentences which I think has helped.
- Let me know if you see other problem spots and I'll gladly fix. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Much better. I did a few more tweaks, added some links (Twelve Years Truce, etc). Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:16, 13 April 2010 (UTC) Comment -
William Brewster (Pilgrim) was the Elder of the Scrooby congregation; was imprisoned before they left England for Leiden; continued as Elder in Plymouth until his death. Although the focus of the article is on Standish, somehow the article should incorporate Brewster and his role. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response. I've added mention of Brewster in the "Historical background" section. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 16:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. A couple of nitpicks so far, though I've haven't read to the end yet.
- "
On February 17, 1621, the Plymouth Colony militia elected him as its first commander and continued to re-elect him to that position for the remainder of his life.[3] Later, he served as an agent of Plymouth Colony in England, as assistant governor, and as treasurer of Plymouth Colony.[4]" - confusing because later doesn't seem to flow logically after "remainder of his life." "By the 1640s, Standish relinquished his role as a man of action and settled into a quieter life on his Duxbury farm" - can "man of action be reworded?"In 1620, the group embarked on a venture to establish a colony in North America, desiring to create a community free from foreign influences of the Dutch and where they could still practice their religion freely." Awkward sentence"In what is now Plymouth, Massachusetts, the passengers of the Mayflower—later known in the United States as Pilgrims—established a colony referred to at the time as "New Plymouth" (although the name and spelling varied)." Tricky here. You've explained that not all passengers of the Mayflower were separatists (in fact some were Anglican) but this sentence indicates the passengers were Pilgrims which many consider to be synonymous with Puritan. Somehow, needs a rework."Anxious to prepare themselves in the event of hostilities, on February 17, 1621, the men of the colony met and officially formed a militia consisting of all able-bodied men. They elected Standish their commander, ratifying by democratic process the position that the leaders of the colony had already assigned him.[3] " Needs a little clarification. Wasn't Standish the commander prior to this event? If not who was?
- "
- This all very nit-pi:cky, . Overall I'm enjoying reading the article, and hope to finish tomorrow. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response. Nit-picky is good. Thanks for the feedback. I've made the following changes:
- "On February 17..." I think simply taking out "later" fixes the problem here.
- "By the 1640s..." Changed "man of action" to "active soldier" which I think is better.
- "In 1620, the group embarked..." Re-worked this into two separate sentences and I think it's clearer now.
- "In what is now Plymouth..." Very good point here. Depending on the source, "Pilgrim" can either apply strictly to Separatists or also to all the first settlers of Plymouth (both Separatist and Anglican). I've explained this in the text and I hope it's clear.
- "Anxious to prepare..." Re-worded this a bit to stress that he already had the position, but that the militia was confirming it by demcratic vote.
- Hope this addresses your concerns. Glad you're enjoying the article. Let me know about other changes as you continue reading. Historical Perspective (talk) 11:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A few more:
"As Standish and Hobbamock burst into the shelter, Pokanokets inside attempted to flee. English outside fired their muskets, wounding a Pokanoket man and woman who were later taken to Plymouth to be treated. Inside, Standish discovered that Corbitant had left Nemasket and that Tisquantum was unharmed.[37]" – somewhat confusing to read with repetitious use of inside/outside. Try to reword slightly."In an effort to show they were not intimidated, Bradford sent the snakeskin back filled with gunpowder and shot." I'd consider flipping the clauses in this sentence because the pronoun appears to refer to the antecedent in the previous sentence.
*"To fully surround the settlement, the palisade would have to be more than half a mile (or 0.8 km).[40]" This was a bit of an awkward section. Needs some tweaking."The mission had a personal side for Standish." Reword – not literally a personal side, but maybe a personal aspect."Plymouth Colony had been granted rights to maintain a trading post at present-day Castine, Maine, on the Penobscot River. It had been captured from the French by the English in 1628." Another section with some short choppy sentences; try combining some of them.
- I'm fairly familiar with this topic, but nonetheless know more now than yesterday! Nicely researched and presented. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response. Very glad to hear it's informative. I've made the following changes.
- "As Standish and Hobbamock..." I re-phrased most of the paragraph. I think it reads more clearly now.
- "In an effort to..." Ha. Good point. It sounded like the snakeskin was intimidated. Fixed it.
- "To fully surround..." Re-worded.
- "The mission had..." Used "aspect."
- "Plymouth Colony had been granted..." Yes, this was very clunky. I re-worked the paragraph so that events are told in chronological order. I think it makes more sense now.
- Thanks again for your comments! Historical Perspective (talk) 23:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Make sure the dates in the text are formated according to WP:MOSDATES. In some cases I believe I saw commas that should be removed. Sorry I meant to post this earlier and haven't had time today to re-read the article to verify whether or not I'm correct. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I'll have one more read through tomorrow to be certain no other prose issues jump out at me. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Additional comments: please add the date of Wordsworth's book.
- I've done a light copyedit to about half the article and will swing through and finish tomorrow. However, in my view it may need someone else to tweak the prose. Because of my familiarity with the topic it may seem more clear to me than to a reader who comes to this without any knowledge of the subject. I'll support with the caveat that the prose gets a good brush up as soon as possible. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Comments
- Good catch on "proscribe." Definitely the wrong word. "Narrangansett" was a typo. I corrected the other two instances. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 10:34, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by Karanacs 00:58, 14 April 2010 [57].
Typhoon Kirogi (2000)
- Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Typhoon Kirogi, the first typhoon to threaten Tokyo since a storm in 1989, caused severe damage in parts of eastern Honshu and Hokkaido. Peaking as a Category 4 equivalent storm, Kirogi had weakened to minimal typhoon status before impacting Japan. Throughout Japan, rainfall in excess of one foot led to 15 billion yen ($140 million dollars) in damage as well as five fatalities. All thoughts and comments are welcome. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Ucucha 21:05, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that you double check the MH as the ATCR produced by the HKO reports that Kirogi under went a Fuwijara with Kai-tak.Jason Rees (talk) 18:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I just read the report on Kirogi in the HKO report and it does not mention any interaction between the two storms. You may be getting it mixed up with the Philippine mishap of Kai-tak being unnoticed while Kirogi was blamed for the damage. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links.
External link to http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-6827217.html seems dead.Ucucha 21:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed the dead link Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Ealdgyth. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – No one seems to be reviewing this one, so I'll bite.
"On July 3, the storm underwent rapid intensification and attained Category 4 status on the Saffir–Simpson Hurricane Scale according to the JTWC the next day." For some reason, this struck me as an odd order to put the last bits in. How about "and attained Category 4 status on the Saffir–Simpson Hurricane Scale the next day, according to the JTWC."?- Is there a reason the full names of the abbreviations in the lead are only given in the body? It seems like they should first be introduced in the lead.
- PASAGA is still not given in full in the lead. Not sure if you want it all in the lead, however, since the whole name is so long. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 19:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That's what I was trying to avoid. Hopefully it's not a problem. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- PASAGA is still not given in full in the lead. Not sure if you want it all in the lead, however, since the whole name is so long. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 19:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comma after "The remnants of the storm persisted until July 10"?"The Japan Meteorological Agency uses 10-minute winds, while the Joint Typhoon Warning Center uses one-minute sustained winds." What are they used for? This is a confusing sentence until you realize two sentences later that it's apparently for measuring the peak of a storm. Consider adding a brief explanation (only a few words should be sufficient) in the above sentence."Forecasters warned that upwards of 250 mm rain could fall...". Seems to be missing "of" after the templated number.A few times during the article, there are cases where cites occur in the middle of a sentence. For a few of them, a comma could be added so the cite occurs after punctuation, and the prose will be unaffected.Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:27, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I've attented to all of your comments. Thanks for the review. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:58, 8 April 2010 [58].
Red-capped Robin
I am nominating this for featured article because I think this birdy is really cute :) but seriously, errmmmm...well I have buffed it up and a few experienced editors have looked at it and offered improvements. Anyway, have at it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
- Are males and females the same size? I only ask because dimorphism can include size difference, but sameness is not noted.
- Overall taxonomy needs work. I think all of the data is there, but it's a little too compact and some stuff is repeated.
- The first sentence in taxonomy is quite a mouthful. Do you mean to say that the location it was collected at gave them the idea it was related to the old world fly catchers?
- "Kuburi is a name from the Kimberley.[6]" - Just sort of hanging there... looking at the ref there are probably more interesting things to say along with it. Would "Kuburi is a name used in the Kimberley" make more sense?
- The first paragraph of taxonomy feels like it's trying to jam too much information into a small area.
- The end of the 2nd para of taxonomy repeats the information from the first (old world fly catcher...changed taxonomoies etc).
- I don't understand how Pachycephalidae fits in?
- Would it be a good idea to repeat the infobox image in Description so that you can see a male and female in the same spot?
- "The male selects the nest site" ... "before the female ultimately makes the decision where to build". If she makes the decision he isn't selecting the site. Maybe just changing to "selects nesting sites" would fix it.
- Overall pretty good.
-Ravedave (talk) 17:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsJimfbleak - talk to me? 15:51, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I made these changes, please check
- small thin black bill and eyes are the eyes small and thin as well as black?
European Robin, it is not closely related to it or the American Robin I wondered if this was Euro/US-centric, since Erithacus and Turdus both contain other birds named as robins- not a deal breaker if you're happy as is.
- They were the two most notable species known as robins and are the ones which these critters were mentioned as not-being-related-to in books. Need to think about this one and think about sourcing. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm happy with that Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- at around a year of age or in the months following that bit clunky
- technical check no disambs, ref 38 (ANU) is dead, map lacks alt text Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:55, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image review all images appropriately sourced and licensed Jimfbleak - talk to me?
- Support - declaration, member of bird project, never edited this article before fac. No further issues Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- According to the map the birds do not populate Kangaroo Island. If this is correct, I think this needs to be made clear in the text. Snowman (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd not thought of that. It is rare in regions of Australia next to the coast, which includes places like Kangaroo Island. I will see if a ref explicitly says "not in Kangaroo Island" although usually they just say where tehy do occur. 22:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- According to the text it is native on Flinders Island, but this is not a feature of the range map. I think that it would be worth making the map and the text consistent. Snowman (talk) 13:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update - checked Higgins p. 652, which explicitly states it is absent on Kangaroo Island. However Higgins does not mention Flinders Island at all, which is odd. I will look online for this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have removed the Flinders Island segment for the moment, as the Higgins HANZAB book, which is pretty authoritative, does not mention it and there is nothing online. Also, it is a dryer climate bird, so its presence there would be counterintuitive. I do not have the Boles book now, and hence I suspect I might have inadvertently flipped the pages and it was a reference to the Flame, Pink or Scarlet Robins which do occur there. I can find the book in the library next wednesday or friday Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update - checked Higgins p. 652, which explicitly states it is absent on Kangaroo Island. However Higgins does not mention Flinders Island at all, which is odd. I will look online for this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Possible omission: If it is a monomorphic (without subspecies) species, then the article should say. Snowman (talk) 21:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Issues addressed; great article. Ucucha 12:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC) Comments. I take it you've checked through the list of sources I sent you?[reply]
"The robin has a small black bill"—does this refer to both sexes? If so, it would be clearer to say "Both sexes have ..."
"These are similar across mainland Australia but distinct on Rottnest Island"—you said before that there was no geographic variation other than some variation in fur color
"in southern coastal or northern parts of its range"—not sure what this means—are there some commas missing?
"The long breeding season and multiple broods therein"—in Terrick Terrick? If so, you'd better combine the short paragraphs.
Odd to have both categories "Birds of Australia" and "Birds of South Australia".
Map has the distribution rather more restricted than the text.
- Interesting - I'd assumed the Top End covered more of northern oz and into northern WA. Might have to check the deifnition of it and clarify with some more precise northern limits. I can do that in the next couple of days. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources and images look good. I made some changes in the prose and have a few more nitpicks above, but otherwise I see no problems. Ucucha 02:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Older nominations
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:55, 4 May 2010 [59].
Funerary art
- Nominator(s): Johnbod, Madman2001 and myself. • Ling.Nut 14:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Funerary art, a well-researched article and the product of a true collaboration, brings to the public a survey of the best sources and a representative sampling of the practices of cultures from around the world. For those of you who like your FAC noms to be somehow outside the standard mould, the article offers an academic slant on a cool topic.• Ling.Nut 14:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Restart, old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I reordered the Ancient Egypt section, adding a paragraph or two and retitling it "Ancient Egypt and Nubia". I didn't mention the Sphinx, partially because as Johnbod said it' s not clear what function it performed, and partially because it's almost 2am. The section could use other eyes... • Ling.Nut 17:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are entire sections and entire paragraphs without citations and many paragraphs without a closing citation. As well, the citations are not consistent with 2C. All of this was found in 45 seconds. --Brad (talk) 20:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Might I recommend actually reading the article too? Some material has been very recently added, and still is being, further to requests from Pt 1. Other sections namecheck links to other articles saying only things that are unlikely to be challenged. Feel free to tag anything that you think really needs a ref - I don't say there aren't any such places. Johnbod (talk) 00:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no reason to read the entire article when it fails one of the fundamental requirements for FA. 2C is no consistency with the referencing. You have combinations of "Bonnefoy, pp. 133-137", "Levey 1967, 57–59", "Boardman et al, 688&ndas;9", "Welch, 26", "Hall, 15, 35 78" etc. Citations need to be consistent to one style and not a psychedelic mix. Pay attention to where you need to use commas, periods and endashes. When this is fixed then there is a reason to read further. --Brad (talk) 12:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Might I recommend actually reading the article too? Some material has been very recently added, and still is being, further to requests from Pt 1. Other sections namecheck links to other articles saying only things that are unlikely to be challenged. Feel free to tag anything that you think really needs a ref - I don't say there aren't any such places. Johnbod (talk) 00:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think these are now all fixed, so you'll have to read the article now. Johnbod (talk) 04:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- They're no where near fixed. I noticed that another editor brought up this same issue during the last FA pass and it's still a problem. There does not seem to be any effort by the nominators to correct this. An article in this condition should be withdrawn from the FAC process. --Brad (talk) 13:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The previous commenter (Ucucha) was happy with the changes made & struck his comment. I notice the number of refs was increased by 25% during the period covered by "There does not seem to be any effort by the nominators to correct this" and is (updated May 4th) currently 100% higher than when Brad first commented. Johnbod (talk) 22:32, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The citations have been standardized. You'll have to give examples on referencing; linked, and often well-known dickdefs do not need a reference, at least in the opinion of the nominators, at least until they are challenged. The article currently has 137 citations, and a considerable number have been added recently. Johnbod (talk) 14:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As I said on the previous it cannot possibly accomodate the variations and exceptions - nevertheless it is an admirable job, to try to appease the criticisms, but in doing so it ends up like an Asian template - its all there but for what purpose? (I vehemently oppose the existence Asian templates on the basis that they include totally unrelatable sub regions in a one size fits all scope template as if a single attribute 'geography' binds the incongruities) Similarly here - I am not supporting or opposing, I am just wondering when the penny drops somewhere and someone realises that to have separate articles could solve quite a lot of issues - it clearly has not really hit any of the article editors yet - as the extent of 'defending' the article and stretching it seems to be the main energy consumer. SatuSuro 03:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We've had this conversation before. Ideally, every section of this article would simply be a little WP:Summary that would have a {{main}} link to a heart-pounding, leg-tingling FA-quality article with expert-level accuracy and comprehensiveness and Pulitzer-prize winning prose. That would be wiki-paradise. Unfortunately, few if any of the relevant articles exist. If any do exist, I'd be quite surprised if any are legitimately beyond "C" on the qualify scale. SO... let's deal with reality, shall we? If we break this article up, what do we accomplish? The costs are far weightier than the benefits. The benefits are... well, there's only one: we've satisfied some Procrustean vision of organizational purity in article construction. By doing so, we have perhaps made one or two (I doubt there's more than two) editors happy. What are the costs? The costs are that you have won the battle but lost the war. Breaking this up would result in six or eight sad, scattered little nubbins of STUB articles. These will languish undeveloped until the heat death of the sun, simply because no one will notice them. The current approach puts them all in one place to attract editorial attention; if the article gets the bronze star, it will be an even better advertisement for the topic.• Ling.Nut 07:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
- As always, positions get somewhat overstated. I'm pretty sure we'll get there in 250 Ma, and LingNut should know that that is long before the heat death of the sun :-). Satu: "it clearly has not really hit any of the article editors yet".. well, yes i think it has, they just don't agree. Neither do i on this point. But I do agree with Brad. Reference all the major facts and I would probably be a support. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ohmigod (as my teenagers used to say), good luck to you all from your different planets - as a dark underground troglodyte with serious interest in tagging category talk pages - I never thought that I was in a battle/war - (ling nut) t this is a good article - but ideally - some subsidiary would be useful - (you do get a bit loquacious unnecessarily) for example - the christian section is potentially a stand alone article - and I dont think it would be sad :) SatuSuro 11:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree re christian funerary art section! hamiltonstone (talk) 12:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ohmigod (as my teenagers used to say), good luck to you all from your different planets - as a dark underground troglodyte with serious interest in tagging category talk pages - I never thought that I was in a battle/war - (ling nut) t this is a good article - but ideally - some subsidiary would be useful - (you do get a bit loquacious unnecessarily) for example - the christian section is potentially a stand alone article - and I dont think it would be sad :) SatuSuro 11:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Brad: I sorta think "psychedelic" is... overstated. Are there a few problems with commas? I suggest {{sofixit}}. Content reviewers are editors too...
- Dear Satu: battle? war? Where does this language come from? I see neither... The point remains: Break this article up, you'll have many stubs that will be completely forgotten by everyone.
- I don't wanna uglify the article as I work on the sections that we feel are under-referenced. Similar to the way I handled the Egyptian/Nubian section, I'm temporarily working in User:Ling.Nut/Sandbox2. If anybody wants to help, please do be my ghost. • Ling.Nut 16:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Question Why haven't Totem Poles of North America been discussed and the burial mounds of the Mississippian culture? I am glad to see the Egyptian section expanded to include the pyramids although I still think the Sphinx should be discussed...Modernist (talk) 22:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I have added the mounds, although only some appear to have been anything to do with burials at all, & apart from the mounds themselves, they don't seem to have many artifacts within. With totem-poles a connection with burial seems only speculative in respect of earlier ones. We have to stay focused on the subject here. Johnbod (talk) 03:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I was thinking about this site Etowah Indian Mounds and the effigies found there, the article mentions that some Totem Poles were mortuary markers and they all seem to me to be interesting artworks. Although I agree it all seems speculative and unclear...Modernist (talk) 03:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I went with Grave Creek Mound, which is nice & big, & certainly a burial site. More could be added on the matter, with clearer sources, but they are in there anyway. Really we are supposed to be covering art made specifically for burials rather than normal life stuff buried with people, but when the experts aren't sure of the situation it's difficult. Johnbod (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Metairie Cemetery in New Orleans is famous for its monuments and funerary art...Modernist (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is that the one in Easy Rider? We have Père Lachaise Cemetery in a caption, but the Monumental Cemetery of Staglieno would definitely be the next to add - perhaps I should. Ok done that - I think you have to hand the top slot to the Italians. Johnbod (talk) 22:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes I think its the one in Easy Rider, amazing place...Modernist (talk) 22:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I like this article, but I'm not really qualified to evaluate the quality of most of it. As to to the Christianity section, I can refer you to a few articles that I wrote (the Tomb of Antipope John XXIII has already been mentioned) when I took an interest in the limited topic of papal tombs a while ago. I leave it up to the authors to decide whether to link to or incorporate this material, as I acknowledge that papal funerary art is only a small component of Christian funerary art. My main criticism would be that this section is written with somewhat of a Catholic focus (e.g. "The Catacombs of Rome contain most of the Christian art of the Early Christian period"...this seems to conflate Early Christianity with the church of Rome). Also, "St. Peter's"--the article linked to--is hardly an early Christian structure. St. Peter's tomb or Old St. Peter's Basilica might be more appropriate. Savidan 07:43, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. That "The Catacombs of Rome contain most of the Christian art of the Early Christian period" is simply a fact (depending slightly on the period that is assumed to cover, which we don't go into); there are no other sources with anything like the quantity of works, and mostly rediscovered in good and unaltered condition. Talking about non-Catacomb Christian art and even churches from before 300, or even later, is notoriously mostly a matter of using literary references and speculation, with the odd exception like Dura Europos on the eastern border with Persia. See the first chapters of the Syndicus book cited, or Beckwith's Penguin/Yale history of art volume on the subject. After that you go to a handful of remnants of mosaic schemes etc, many heavily restored, from grand, often Imperial, buildings from the period of Constantine on, many in fact also in Rome. The context in which St Peter's is mentioned is "... building churches, most famously St Peter's, Rome, over the burial place of martyrs..." so it is the site rather than a particular building that is the point. Johnbod (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If your point is that Rome contains most of the extant Christian art of that period, that may be true. However, I fail to find a single mention of Eastern Christian funerary art in the entire article, with the exception of a single uncited footnote. Savidan 19:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That is probably the case, though most of what is said, at least for the earlier period, covers East and West equally. Do you have anything particular in mind that should be mentioned? There is generally much less monumental funerary art in Eastern Christianity, a point that might be made, especially if you have a reference - nothing like the wall-tomb tradition. Most of the very plain sarcophagi of the Russian Tsars sit in two cathedrals in Moscow or Petersburg arrayed like cars in a car park. see here and here. This article is a tour d'horizon and does not aspire to cover equally all the world at all periods. The rather later Armenian Khachkars could be mentioned, although I think they were initially mostly not funerary, but later used for this, rather like the Celtic cross. I'll add "surviving" to the catacombs bit anyway. Johnbod (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have added a short paragraph on Byzantine sarcophagi, & the List of extant papal tombs to See also. Johnbod (talk) 04:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The main thing I know about Eastern Christianity is that some Western Christians tend to write as though it didn't exist. I did a quick google books search and found Death and religion in a changing world by Kathleen Garces-Foley, which contrasts eastern and western practices. The extent to which this and other sources may be relevant I do not know. It seems axiomatic, though, that if Funerary art is virtually non-existent in some cultures that you might mention that in the article. I am generally a fan of your articles, but I am troubled by the "tour d'horizon" concept. It can be difficult call to make with articles that cover large topics, but I tend to prefer an article that is complete in its scope. If daughter articles are necessary, I do not ask that you write them, but only that this one represents the level of detail that would be appropriate for the main article on a large topic. Savidan 00:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There are lots of "practices" but far fewer funerary works of art than in the Western tradition, though even here the tradition is now in steep decline for private burials - Bill Gates will not I think end up under a large sculpted memorial, though there is hope for Silvio Berlusconi. I should add this when I have refs. I can hardly be accused of ignoring EC art, on which I have written quite a few articles. The book you mention is almost entirely about ceremonies or liturgy, which we are not covering, but any other suggestions are welcome. You may have seen already what extremely slim pickings a gbooks search on "Eastern Orthodox" + "funerary art" produces! The lead mentions the notable absence of a Hindu tradition, & there are mentions elsewhere of absences, though these can be tricky to reference. From my POV a big problem with WP coverage of art & many other topics is that many small subject articles are good, but the big subject ones are mostly pretty poor - the FA population shows the same problem. Johnbod (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That is probably the case, though most of what is said, at least for the earlier period, covers East and West equally. Do you have anything particular in mind that should be mentioned? There is generally much less monumental funerary art in Eastern Christianity, a point that might be made, especially if you have a reference - nothing like the wall-tomb tradition. Most of the very plain sarcophagi of the Russian Tsars sit in two cathedrals in Moscow or Petersburg arrayed like cars in a car park. see here and here. This article is a tour d'horizon and does not aspire to cover equally all the world at all periods. The rather later Armenian Khachkars could be mentioned, although I think they were initially mostly not funerary, but later used for this, rather like the Celtic cross. I'll add "surviving" to the catacombs bit anyway. Johnbod (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If your point is that Rome contains most of the extant Christian art of that period, that may be true. However, I fail to find a single mention of Eastern Christian funerary art in the entire article, with the exception of a single uncited footnote. Savidan 19:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. That "The Catacombs of Rome contain most of the Christian art of the Early Christian period" is simply a fact (depending slightly on the period that is assumed to cover, which we don't go into); there are no other sources with anything like the quantity of works, and mostly rediscovered in good and unaltered condition. Talking about non-Catacomb Christian art and even churches from before 300, or even later, is notoriously mostly a matter of using literary references and speculation, with the odd exception like Dura Europos on the eastern border with Persia. See the first chapters of the Syndicus book cited, or Beckwith's Penguin/Yale history of art volume on the subject. After that you go to a handful of remnants of mosaic schemes etc, many heavily restored, from grand, often Imperial, buildings from the period of Constantine on, many in fact also in Rome. The context in which St Peter's is mentioned is "... building churches, most famously St Peter's, Rome, over the burial place of martyrs..." so it is the site rather than a particular building that is the point. Johnbod (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. This is a superb and interesting article. The writing is great and it's nicely illustrated. I have a few quibbles, but none that affect the support:
- In the lead, not sure what this means: "It can ... serve as an article for use by the dead in the afterlife ..."
- Several cultures believed that things deposited in the grave could actually be used by the dead, either as they were, or after some sort of magical reconstitution. The Terracotta army is an example, also those Etruscan "actual eggs". These have already been defined as "cultural functions", so I don't think we need to make it clearer that Wikipedia does not endorse as fact the regeneration of terracotta warriors. Or do we? Johnbod (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "The deposit of objects with an apparent aesthetic intention goes back to the Neanderthals over 100,000 years ago ..." The footnote doesn't seem very clear on that.
- I've softened the claim, & changed the date, & added this and this as refs. It does seem to be still the majority view, though hotly debated. Johnbod (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not keen on unattributed quotations, as they raise the issue of why quotation marks are being used rather than rephrasing, e.g. "Household bowls, cups, and pitchers are sometimes found in the graves, along with foodstuffs such as 'actual eggs, pomegranates, honey, grapes and olives'[33] for use in the afterlife."
- I'm wondering why there are separate sections on China, Korea, and Japan and only one on the Americas. And why such a long section on Christianity, which seems to overwhelm the others.
- The issue of balance was raised in Part 1, and additions have been made, including some you mention, but I still think we have got the essential balance approximately right. Only what one reviewer called the "Mediterranean littoral" (Egypt, Greece, Etruria, Romans, Christians) has such a lavish and continuous tradition of monumental (ie big) sculpture on tombs, that also reaches well beyond royalty into the upper and middle classes. These areas certainly take up a large proportion of the article. East Asia's big tomb traditions are more restricted socially, but continuous over long periods, and well understood from literary sources. That is where America falls down. The first ghit on a search on "Aztec tomb" is this on what may be ""...the first look at a royal tomb in all of Central Mexico," Nichols said. "There are many things we haven't understood well—like the religion and symbolism of the Aztecs" ..." It seems a little premature to add this until they've got the slab off. For other American cultures there is big uncertainty, since almost all known finds are from burials, whether objects such as pots and figures were particularly associated with death, or just everyday stuff, favourite possessions etc, so not meeting the definition we are using. This is a problem with a great number of cultures around the world; for example the non-Egyptian Ancient Near East, which offers a striking contrast to Egypt in this respect. Believe me I have tried to expand these areas, though they are not my specialism I readily admit. In other cultures memorials of the rich were temples, mosques, churches etc in the usual style of the time & place, with a memorial inscription, and perhaps a fairly simple burial slab. These also fall outside our scope. Johnbod (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure I understand the second sentence here: "Some are fairly traditional, while monuments reflecting more contemporary styles include the Vietnam Veterans Memorial ... These are in notable contrast to the style of most war memorials to the military of World War II; earlier modernist memorials to the dead of World War I were sometimes removed after a time."
SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:00, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, leaning to support.
- This has come a way since nominating and looks good. I have one main overall concern: the lead does not appear to be a summary of the text, but a kind of big-picture introduction to the subject. As such, it should mostly be the actual first section of the body text - and needs cites for arguments such as "Funerary art can serve many cultural functions, although generally it is an aesthetic attempt to capture or express beliefs or emotions about the afterlife." For example, do we have sources that say that this particular purpose - "aesthetic attempt to capture or express beliefs or emotions about the afterlife" - is the general / dominant one ahead of other explanations? I ask this partly as a matter of WP policy on what the lead should be, but also as a check on OR in the lead. For example, the lead has an earlier sentence that says that grave goods may include "miniature versions of things believed to be needed in an afterlife". To the extent that funerary art is the result of preparing a person's body for the next life, I'm not sure i would call that an "aesthetic attempt to capture or express" something. The more obvious explanation in that context would seem pragmatic rather than aesthetic, and to be preparatory rather than expressive. I have no idea whether that is the case, whether it is commonly so, or not; hence my suggestion that it be cited body text, rather than uncited lead. I would support the article at FAC were this addressed. Regards, hamiltonstone (talk) 23:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Am I right in thinking your problems are mainly with the 2nd para? I'm not sure this was mostly mine. I'd say "an aesthetic attempt to capture or express beliefs or emotions about the afterlife" is vague enough to cover all the more specific things listed next myself (if one goes to "death and the afterlife". I don't myself see why miniature model grave goods do not fit under the phrase - they are expressing the belief that the objects will be usable in the afterlife, surely? There is obviously more of an issue when there is no belief in an afterlife. On reflection I've just cut it, and moved the psychopomps down into the "Common terms". There is a problem referencing completely global statements as there simply appear to be no art history books of the sort of quality we are trying to use that take a global approach across time & space - art historians tend to regard such treatments as for popularizion only. So we have avoided these as far as possible. I suppose I should crudely summarize the rest of the article in a new lede para, which I'll do later. Johnbod (talk) 00:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Looking better. I think one of my concerns was the implied intentionality of the language ("aesthetic attempt to capture") - that is, implying that the intention of the creators was aesthetic, whereas the best i think we can do, with ancient examples at any rate, is to interpret the outcome. Anyway, i'm now game to support. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [60].
First Test, 1948 Ashes series
- Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First Test of the 1948 Ashes series, a rather slow game marked by England's use of leg theory, and Bradman made his slowest Test century, snared in the leg trap of Alec Bedser, part of a trend. Compton made a famous 184 in England's second innings. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links and no dead external links.
You have two refs named "sched" and "sco4" with slightly different content.Ucucha 11:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, one redirects to the other YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:48, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- References
- Passes W3C validation
- Properly uses
{{cite xxx}}
templates; error check passes except for the two duplicate names already noted - Uses shortened footnotes with some standard footnotes; not egregious, but cosmetic
- Cricinfo is used as the publisher in several cites, it should be used as the work; looks like it is now named ESPNcricinfo
Cricinfo should probably be moved but that is not a FAC issue - CricketArchive should be used as work, not publisher; see the documentation for {{Cite web}}
- ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If you mean shortened, I only put in the years if there is a need to dab. For the websites, Work and publisher only differ in italicisation and they aren't italicised as they aren't newpaper/journal titles, so publisher works the same as work with explicit italics to invert it YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:48, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Harrias |
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**While I obviously know what it means, would it be worth putting a note by the first use of cricket scoring notation, ie "and fell to be 74/8" and then "Bill Johnston taking 5/36 for Australia". I've started doing it in some of my articles, as people not that familiar with cricket may not understand what it means, particularly with the two being opposite ways around (though I'm pretty sure in Aus, you'd normally write the score 8/74 in that case anyway?)
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- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: I have made several minor fixes, typos etc. I have also been listing numerous prose queries, either grammatical, punctuation, cricket-speak or lack of clarity. Either by some telepathic genius, or maybe by stalking my sandboxes, you have anticipated and dealt with most of them, so here is a shorter list (you may have got to some of these by now, too!) As a general point for the future I would strongly recommend that you get a non-cricket person to look at the prose before FAC submission of further cricket articles, particularly match reports which are very hard to do encyclopedically. I would usually be willing to help with this.
- Prose queries
- The next morning, Bradman departed for 138, but his vice-captain Lindsay Hassett continued on,... The "on" is redundant.
- Godfrey Evans, who kept wickets in the last series,... "Kept wicket", surely, and for the uninitiated this should be linked to wicket-keeper.
- "...but the run rate remained low" followed soon after by "This ended a 64-run stand in 58 minutes". That is not a low run rate
- Fair enough and removed, in spite of Fingleton and Wisden saying they were slow YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fingleton was a grouch, especially about Bradman (who for some reason he detested). Test match run rates in those days tended to be faster in terms of time than now, but were generally slower in terms of runs per 100 balls; they bowled many more overs per day, then. For example, when Australia scored 404 at Headingley, England bowled 110 overs - and that was in less than a day's play. Brianboulton (talk) 16:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, Fingleton and Bradman were all at loggerheads but the amusing thing is that Bradman hagiographers in Australia also often just lift all their stuff off him including all his quips and turn of phrase etc. Yeah, when I checked the scorecard again, they were bowling at 20 overs per hour that day, and 3 RPO isn't bad for that era and those crummy bats they had. Even if that hour they had only spinners and it seems Yardley was bowling some of it, so even if they had 25 overs that hour YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fingleton was a grouch, especially about Bradman (who for some reason he detested). Test match run rates in those days tended to be faster in terms of time than now, but were generally slower in terms of runs per 100 balls; they bowled many more overs per day, then. For example, when Australia scored 404 at Headingley, England bowled 110 overs - and that was in less than a day's play. Brianboulton (talk) 16:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough and removed, in spite of Fingleton and Wisden saying they were slow YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- O'Reilly often attacked leg stump during his career and devised a refined plan to ensnare Bradman "Refined" is surely not the best adjective here. O'Reilly's career was long over at this point, so you need to say: "During his career O'Reilly had often attacked leg stump, and had devised..." etc
- ...while Young had none and used a pure ring field. I've never heard the expression "pure ring field" - what does it mean?)
- I just used a descriptive treatment; everyone in a circle. Sometimes a commentator will say "ring field" even though there is a slip, which is a close-catching position. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As such, Yardley's leg theory tactics failed to coax them into losing their patience. "As such" is unnecessary
- ...the ball had touched his body and not the willow. Unexplained use of "willow", meaning "bat"
- Miller returned late in the day Needs explanation. Had Miller been off the field? Otherwise, in what sense was he returning?
- Compton's fall at 405/7 exposed the English tail "Exposed the English tail" is cricket-speak, needs explanation
- England made three, omitting Barnett, Hardstaff and Young to a combination of injury and poor form. You don't omit "to", you can omit "through", or "because of", or "due to".
- Australia's batsmen set a world record by chasing down 404 on the final day to take a series-winning 3–0 lead. You need to make it clear that this was a Test cricket world record, which relates to the 404 winning total, not to the last day or the 3-0 series lead. Thus: "On the final day Australia's batsmen set a world Test cricket record by scoring 404 to win the match, thereby taking a series-winning lead".
- Australia then completed the series in style... POV (and unnecessary rubbing it in)
- Changed. Never thought of myself as a rowdy gloating nationalist YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The Fifth Test was the last international match, and the tourists only had seven further matches to negotiate in order to fulfil Bradman's aim of going through the tour undefeated. Clarify that this was the last international match of the tour. Also, "only" seven further matches is putting it oddly - that's more than 20% of the whole tour.
Brianboulton (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I saw that you had tweaked teh article and looked in your sandbox as I have seen FAC reviews being prepared in there. Thanks YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed all of it. Offer accepted. Many thanks YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is nothing sacred? Having someone poking about in the sandboxes is like having a stranger going through your sock drawer. Anyhow, the article is looking a lot better now. I'll give it another readthrough in the next couple of days. Brianboulton (talk) 16:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nice article. Minor style point - referring to Lindwall's teammates as his "colleagues" read a little strangely to me, and to the extent his colleagues had a heavier workload due to his injury, wouldn't it be better to specify "the other Australian bowlers" or "the rest of the Australian attack" - because that's who we really mean. And a question to which I don't know the answer: the parts of Law 42 dealing with short-pitched bowling were introduced after the Bodyline series. Was the beamer "illegal" by 1948 or was it a later prohibition? I had a look around, and I can't find out.KD Tries Again (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]
- Changing it in the lead. A beamer was definitely illegal by then although I don't know when it was changed. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – These are through the majority of the article, including the recaps of the first three days. For the most part, it looks like another winner.
"taking five wickets for Australia. Australia...". Little bit of repetition that could be sorted out in the lead.Background: "It was thought that Bradman would play another leg spinner Doug Ring in McCool's place". Bracketing commas around Ring's name would appear to be needed.- "Joe Hardstaff junior scored 107 for Nottinghamshire, the only century made against Australia in the lead-up matches". This fact has five citations, which strikes me as extreme overkill. Do none of the books mention this, so the many match recaps wouldn't need to be used?
- Of the top of my head, I think sched and/or f77 is enough but I wonder why I put those other ones there YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 06:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Day One: "Both players attacked the bowling but could get their shots through the field for runs." Is there supposed to be a "not" in this sentence? I'm no cricket expert, as I've said many times before, but it doesn't sound like they were scoring much at the time."They reached stumps at 17 without loss, with Morris on 10 and Barnes on six." That's a total of 16, not 17. Is this some oddity of cricket scoring that I don't know about?
- They can get runs from extras; wides no-balls etc infringements by the fielding team YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 06:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Day Three: "Miller then responded to the spate of boundaries by with a series of bouncers." Is "by" supposed to be here as part of the terminology, or is it an excess word?Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Did the rest YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 06:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: first mention of stumps in the lead should be linked (as per this). Having used the word "stumps" to define end of day's play, you need another word to describe the batsman's wicket, as in Day 2 para. 2, Day 3 para 3 and Day 5 para. 2. Otherwise it all gets rather confusing. Brianboulton (talk) 20:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, er I think maybe avoiding the dabbing might be more convenient YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: There is a thin dividing line between cricket reporting and encyclopedic writing, and it is difficult, particularly with match reports, to keep to the right side of it. I think that this article occasionally strays over to the wrong side, but not egregiously so, and that may just be my opinion. In any event, I am now happy to support. Disclosure: I have done quite a bit of tweaking and adjusting during this FAC, stuff I would have preferred to do in a peer review. I note that with Bedser's recent death, all of the England XI have now passed away; of the Australians, I think only Morris is left. Brianboulton (talk) 20:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, only Morris, Loxton and Harvey are left, and the latter two only played in 3-5 and 4-5 respectively. Thanks again for your help YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, well-written. A few quibbles, though. Could you reword the last part of the background to avoid the awkward "bowlers. The bowlers" part? I realise you've done this consistently in similar articles, but with ice hockey articles I'm used to having statistics at the end. It looks a bit weird to me, with the prose-stats-prose sandwiching, but if it it's consistent and it works for you, that's fine. Maxim(talk) 03:13, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. In cricket, football and swimming, the data sheet is usually up the top YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – After my batch of comments above was taken care of, I just looked through the rest of the article and found only a couple of minor glitches, which I fixed. The article rises to the same high standard as the other similar ones that have come through here. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:34, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 13:35, 10 April [61].
Elizabeth Canning
Elizabeth Canning was an 18th-century 18-year-old maid who went missing for a month. She returned and claimed she had been abducted, the supposed perpertrators were arrested, tried, and found guilty. Some thought it all very suspicious, investigated, found some serious problems with the case, and had Canning arrested and tried for perjury. She was eventually found guilty and shipped off to what is now the US. It's all a bit of a mystery, but it was one of the most famous legal cases of 18th-century England, and I present it to you now. Parrot of Doom 22:41, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Alt text looks good (no longer an FA criterion). Ucucha 22:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: Do you think 'hayloft' needs to be wikilinked? Also, shouldn't "Background" be separated from the "History" section, even if it is very small. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 22:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hayloft isn't really a helpful article, as it doesn't mention the use of loft space in living areas (as was common at the time). I don't think it's possible to separate the background from the history section as Canning's upbringing and employment status was important to the story. Parrot of Doom 22:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
Houndslow (blue-linked) is in Scotland. Do you mean Hounslow? A long way from the City even so. Houndsditch is near Aldgate – is that what is meant? St Botolph's Aldgate is on the corner of Houndsditch – you mention a (red-linked) Aldgate church – which makes one suspect that "Houndsditch" and "St Botolph's Aldgate" are correct here. This is an important point in the narrative and needs to be cleared up.- It was Houndsditch, fixed.
- Good. That was the only point causing me to withhold support - now given, below. Given that Houndsditch is correct, the red-link for the Aldgate church is a bit forlorn: there isn't another candidate than the blue-linked St Botolph's, so nobody will ever write a new article to turn the red-link blue. I'd remove the link, I think, or change the wording to blue-link to St B's. Tim riley (talk) 09:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It was Houndsditch, fixed.
"Fortune nor Judith Natus were were…" duplication- Fixed
"fish-monger" – the OED does not list this hyphenated version of "fishmonger"- Fixed
"the The Bottle Conjuror…" duplicate word- Fixed
"the Reverend Harris" is good American usage, I believe, but is a solecism in English usage (just as one wouldn't say "the Honourable Smith" or "the Right Honourable Jones"). Either "the Reverend James Harris" or else "Mr Harris" or just "Harris" is needed here."the Squires had very likely been travelling..." – plural of the name Squires should be Squireses shouldn't it, cf. Jones and Joneses?- You've got me there, I find it all quite confusing. Both sources use s's.
Possessive of Squires: consistency needed – at present the article has both "Squires'" and "Squires's". The latter is the conventional English form.
Most of these comments are of minor moment, but the first really does need putting straight if this fascinating article is to be promoted to FA. – Tim riley (talk) 08:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. A well-written and comprehensive article, formidably referenced and very nicely set out. - Tim riley (talk) 09:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Parrot of Doom and I have written a few articles together, but I've had nothing to do with this one, which I think is excellently written, comprehensive, and fully meets the FA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 22:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments The article is in good shape, but going through this, I see some potential problems.
For example, "When Canning failed to return to her lodgings at Lyon's house, he twice went looking for her at her mother's home." Who is the 'he' referring to here? There's an aunt and uncle mentioned in the previous paragraph, but it's implied they left her.
"She was forced to walk to a house, where an old woman asked if she would "go their way"." What does this mean?- Basically it means that they wanted her to be a prostitute. The article does mention this but I've clarified it Parrot of Doom 14:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Canning was still extremely weak, but her supporters took the risk of moving her so she could identify her captors, and the room in which she had been held, before she died." Seems confusing. She didn't die; presumably they thought she would die.- I agree, I've changed it to in case she died Parrot of Doom 14:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The word "stays" is wikilinked at its second and third occurrence, but not its first.- More later. Firsfron of Ronchester 13:28, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"There, before the two kidnappers, Lucy Squires,[nb 4] and Hall, the old gypsy had assaulted Canning, before forcing her up the stairs, where she remained until she escaped." The six commas lead to a choppy, fragmented sentence. I suggest something along the lines of "There, in front of the two kidnappers, Lucy Squires,[nb 4] and Hall, the old gypsy assaulted Canning and forced her up the stairs. She remained there until she escaped."- We're speaking in past tense here. I can't write "in front of" because that may not have happened, so I made this change Parrot of Doom 07:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC) - just to add - I changed the "she remained" to "the young maidservant remained" Parrot of Doom 07:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If you can write "before the two kidnappers" you can substitute "in front of the two kidnappers"; I was hoping to avoid confusion, but am happy with how the sentence turned out.
- We're speaking in past tense here. I can't write "in front of" because that may not have happened, so I made this change Parrot of Doom 07:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC) - just to add - I changed the "she remained" to "the young maidservant remained" Parrot of Doom 07:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another example of fragmentation and "snakiness" (50 words): "Squires, charged with assault and theft, and Wells, with "well-knowing" what her accomplice had done, were tried on 21 February at the Session House of the Old Bailey, before the Lord Mayor of London Sir Crisp Gascoyne, a panel of other justices, and a gallery packed with interested spectators."- Made this change Parrot of Doom 07:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "said that the Squires' had visited his house..." Apostrophe here?
- It was the Squires family that had visited his house, not Squires alone. I think the US style here would be "Squireses" but the British/US sources I've used both agree on "Squires's" for the possessive, and "Squires'" for the plural. Parrot of Doom 07:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Do not add apostrophes to make names plural. This is not an example of BrE/AmE differences. This is Grammar 101. Firsfron of Ronchester 13:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It was the Squires family that had visited his house, not Squires alone. I think the US style here would be "Squireses" but the British/US sources I've used both agree on "Squires's" for the possessive, and "Squires'" for the plural. Parrot of Doom 07:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Little Jemmy, "a poor man who cries sticks about the streets"..." What does this mean? Is this a BrE phrase, or an old euphemism for something antiquated? It sounds (to me) like he was selling sticks. Not truly a FAC objection, but please pity the poor American readers. ;)- "Through January, he thought, the Squires' had very likely been travelling through Dorset..." Apostrophe here?
- See above. Parrot of Doom 07:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Do not add apostrophes to make names plural. This is not an example of BrE/AmE differences. This is Grammar 101. Firsfron of Ronchester 13:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See above. Parrot of Doom 07:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Reports began to emerge, of sinister goings-on..." No comma here.
"she was given a month's imprisonment, to be followed by seven years' transportation." This is explained in a later section, but will not make sense to readers who don't read down that far.- Firsfron of Ronchester 05:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support + Comment I changed one instance of Mrs --> Mrs., but then undid my own edit after I found several of these. Is this a British thing? Or a rule I'm unaware of? But otherwise +S. • Ling.Nut 03:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note, no image review, has anyone checked them, or can you scare up an image reviewer? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 12:55, 10 April 2010 [62].
Fay Ripley
- Nominator(s): Bradley0110 (talk) 09:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm nominating this article for featured status because I believe it meets all of the criteria. It was promoted to GA status last October, was peer reviewed and copyedited by Brianboulton in January, and has received a copyedit from HJ Mitchell of WP:GOCE. There is currently one dead link in the article, which is used once as attribution for a direct quote. The convenience link may not resurface online but can be verified in the hard copy issue of City Life. Bradley0110 (talk) 09:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- The absence of any images in the article is an issue. Images can be brought in by WP:OTRS or by convincing flickr users to let their photos by a suitable license. I tried the latter a lot of things, most times it works.
- Replace the dead link with hard copy details like page no, edition etc.
- Disambig checked. No problem.--Redtigerxyz Talk 11:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some images on Flickr aren't really suitable for identifying the subject and the ones that are are owned by charities, which I don't think would release them under a CC licence. HJ Mitchell has offered to try to persuade a release though. I'll add the additional issue and page details for the City Life ref as soon as I can access them, though it's still a verifiable source in the meantime. Bradley0110 (talk) 09:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Images can be cropped or ask for lower resolution photos. Just try contacting the author via Flickr. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I managed to find 2 that would be suitable for use on WP and sent messages to both authors via Flickr in the hope that they'll release them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, HJ Bradley0110 (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I managed to find 2 that would be suitable for use on WP and sent messages to both authors via Flickr in the hope that they'll release them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Images can be cropped or ask for lower resolution photos. Just try contacting the author via Flickr. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some images on Flickr aren't really suitable for identifying the subject and the ones that are are owned by charities, which I don't think would release them under a CC licence. HJ Mitchell has offered to try to persuade a release though. I'll add the additional issue and page details for the City Life ref as soon as I can access them, though it's still a verifiable source in the meantime. Bradley0110 (talk) 09:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. I would consider removing where she was born and educated out of the lead, that her parents separated, that she took time off to have a second child etc. These are not why she's notable. The lead should mostly confine itself to what she's known for. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 21:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know whether you've left her dob out deliberately, but in case not it's here. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 21:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- DOB added, thanks. I don't mind being reverted if it was a deliberate omission. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SV, I've removed the info about her parents and her education from the lead, but have left the other info in. The lead is not just to establish the notability of the subject, but to provide a broad overview of the whole article; I don't know of any featured articles that omit a person's birth place from the lead, so I've retained that. The birth of her second child is an important thing to have in the lead, as it directly affected her career. As for the birth date, Hello magazine cannot be considered a reliable source in this case, since her birth was registered with the General Register Office between January and March 1966. This is why I added the explanatory note in the refs section and the "See GRO source" note to the wikitext. Bradley0110 (talk) 09:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- DOB added, thanks. I don't mind being reverted if it was a deliberate omission. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "After her scenes as a prostitute were cut from Frankenstein (1994), Ripley won her first major film role playing Karen Hughes in Mute Witness (1995)." I get confused by this sentence. How are they connected and how can you win a role? --Esuzu (talk • contribs) 16:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's just a little flair in the language (and auditions are competitions for actors after all!). Would you prefer "got" or "had" instead of "won"? Bradley0110 (talk) 16:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Gained" could be a sensible compromise. I'm afraid nobody on Flickr has got back to me about a photo yet. :( HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:32, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Three weeks with no Support; perhaps bring this back in about ten days? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 10:09, 8 April 2010 [63].
Alien Nation (film)
- Nominator(s): Theatrickal (talk) 02:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A few months back, this film article was nominated by a user for the FA Queue. At the time, the article was essentially a skeleton. It had a foundation, and certain elements necessary for FA approval, but nothing in terms of comprehensive researched content. Although not a huge success at the box office, the film still retained a popularity for its original concept. I've taken a passing interest in the film, and spent my own time sprucing it up in trying to meet the criterea necessary for FA Status. It is thoroughly filled with referenced content this time around, and I believe in its current incarnation, it merits FA inclusion. Theatrickal (talk) 02:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. A dab link to Brian Thompson; external links fine. To me, many of the sources—Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etcetera—don't look like the high-quality reliable sources the FA criteria require. Ucucha 02:19, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response I fixed the dab link and resourced those Barnes & Noble, Amazon etc. citations. Theatrickal (talk) 02:24, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose for now per evaluation below:
- Should the film really be called a buddy cop film? I can understand the element existing, but it seems first and foremost a science fiction film.
- The "Cast" section is missing links to actors. I assume this was an attempt to avoid overlinking, but I'd like to say two things: 1) The lead section is an overview of the article body, so you shouldn't avoid linking in the body just because it's in the overview, and 2) the "Cast" section really is the most navigable for readers, where names are lost in the "Plot" section. Links to actors in "Cast" section is better accessibility.
- "Production" has no sense of how the film came to be. It goes right into "Makeup", which is a little confusing.
- "Critical response" has weasel wording: "Between critics, reaction to the film was generally mixed." Only individual reviews are cited; it is better to find a source that reports the critical reception in retrospect for this overview. Also, these two reviews lack reliability: 1 and 2.
- The "Post development" section should be outside the "Production" section, probably best placed in the same area as "Sequels".
- "Box office" does not mention the release date, and theater does not need linking. It's a recognized enough word in the English language.
- The article seems to be missing a section that involves academic analysis of the film, especially its themes. Was no such coverage found? See an article like American Beauty (film) for what I mean.
- There are very large paragraphs that amount to "walls" of text through most of the article, especially "Production". Any way to alleviate that with quote boxes or even images? I think that "Makeup" in particular would help support the inclusion of a non-free image of the alien appearance.
I do particularly like how much content is available about the production, and it's nice to see Cinefex used. Hard periodical for me to find! Anyway, these are the broad strokes, for a start. I'll have to read the content more closely for additional suggestions. [edit: I would like to say about this article, though, it is a vast improvement from when it was previously nominated. Nice job! It's now a matter of meeting the FA criteria, obviously.] Erik (talk) 11:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Response Hello, Erik. I've read what you've wrote and I believe I can address all of your concerns.
- First issue is the buddy cop genre point. This film is indeed a buddy cop film. Every film critic organization or authority labels the film as a buddy cop genre. It is a buddy cop film although with a science fiction twist. There are other buddy cop films that have attempted a twist to differentiate from the standard theme too. Films like Turner and Hooch - pairing a cop with a dog. Red Heat - pairing an American cop with a Russian cop. In this film, its pairing a human with an Alien. But it is indeed a buddy cop film. You won't find a film authority that disputes that.
- Second issue, the Cast Section. I indeed did not link those names for that exact reason which you pointed out. To avoid the over-linking. I will change that, if you feel thats the way it should be.
- Next concern is the makeup sub-section. Basically, the entire film element that made this film different from others is the aliens. So I began the production with the background and application of the makeup. I don't really see an issue there. I thinks its an appropriate way to start the paragraph because of the central idea of the movie. If you want, I can switch around the Set Design and filming section to appear first. Let me know on that one. But I don't personally think its necessary.
- Next problem, critical response. I understand where your coming from as far as criticizing the reliability of some of those critics. But here is the situation. The film does not have an abundant amount of reliable critics you see in the media today that reviewed the film. Those were the critics that were available. As an example, noted critic James Berardinelli didn't even review this film because it came out it 1988. He started reviewing in the early 90s. I worked with what I had. The abundance of famed film critics were simply not available for this film. It came out 22 years ago. The critical reviews from Rotten Tomatoes are not really built up with many dead links. Additionally, there's not even a listing for the film on Metacritic. Now as far as the weasel wording, I'll make an attempt to correct that issue.
- Next issue, Post Development. I will make that change as you wish. I thought it would stand in better as a section alone, but I'll merge the two.
- The Box Office section, I will make those corrections. No problem there.
- Next issue involving Academic Theme and Google Books. Truthfully speaking, a theme analysis section is not always required if the article in general explains the themes throughout the page. This is according to WP:MOSFILM. Theme elements are run-through for instance in the production section with the alien language as being a foreign language from another country. Or the subtle makeup job is explained as making the aliens appear as just a discriminated minority group dealing with racism. So that section is not really needed. As far as the Google search is concerned, I'm trying to keep the article in accordance with standard prose sizes. The article should be within 50kb to 70kb of readable prose. I think it stands as 53kb which is fairly acceptable. Also if I might add, some of those google searches only produce a trickling of minor mention of the film. Not necessarily enough to formulate a few major sentences or a complete paragraph. And some of the books contains info which is already in the article, making it redundant. If you'd like to make a contribution from there, go ahead.
- Last issue, is the walls of text. Ok, I guess you got me there. It does appear like a mountain of text. I didn't obtain any images to supplement it. I don't believe there is a rule that says you must have images with the text. But if your able to help out and make additions, please do so. I'm just not that fluent with the images part. Later tonight, I will make an effort to perhaps add some quote boxes to help as you say, "alleviate" those walled sections. (oh, and by the way, I purchased the Cinefex article. It was hard to obtain. But I made the additional effort to get it so that it would help the article get to FA.) Theatrickal (talk) 14:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not have any problem with how it can fall in the buddy cop genre. Could you not say that it is a science fiction film with a buddy cop twist? It seems better organization to identify it out of the gate as a science fiction film and mention later in the same paragraph how it is also a buddy cop film. Unless you want to mash up genres in the lead sentence? Just a thought.
- RESPONSE - Made the changes. Science Fiction theme put in with a side project as a buddy-cop film.
- Regarding "Production", I was more looking for a better lead-in to the whole section. Outside of the lead section, this is the first real exploration of the topic, and it warrants some kind of opening. A lot of film articles start out with how the film took off in the first place -- whose idea it was, who wrote it, who backed it, etc. Maybe one summary-style paragraph to start "Production"? Hope you know what I mean about a lead-in.
- RESPONSE In a few short hours, I'll be home and I'll insert an introductory paragraph entitled "origins".
- For critics, I don't think the lack of reviews is an excuse to have to use these two. They should be removed, and some of Andy's listed references look like reviews.
- RESPONSE - Deleted those reviews. Will try to add Andy's additions later.
- "Post development" could be its own section, too. I just mean that it is outside of this particular film's production, so a section covering the TV series should go outside that film's "Production" section.
- RESPONSE Changes made.
- Regarding themes, I think this film warrants a section discussing them because they are potent in this case. Weaving themes is one approach but works better for when they are simpler, like the director explaining what theme he intended with his script or with a given character. With the links I shared, I think that it would be worth a stand-alone section to explore the themes, since they are neither production- nor reception-related.
- RESPONSE Changes made. I combined the origins section with themes. Although, it may appear slim on the outside, please keep in mind, the subject matter in that paragraph is repeated numerous times throughout the article. It almost seems redundant. But I included it there as per your instructions.
- As for the wall of text, there's no rule, but I think there is precedent to at least break it up with something. I only suggested an image as a two-birds-with-one-stone approach -- it would break up the wall of text in "Makeup" and also be a contextually significant visual aid.
- RESPONSE - Added Quote Boxes to help with text wall.
- I won't be able to respond to any followup statements until tomorrow. And I suppose I will have to fork out money for the Cinefex issue for Dark City, my own project. :) Erik (talk) 19:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Erik asked me to search through some academic databases to see if any papers have been written about this film. I came up blank in the academic department. But, I did find several newspaper and magazine sources that you haven't used. They might be useful in rounding out information about production, reception, and so on:
- Barlow, Mike (May 5, 1989). "Alien Nation a satirical sci-fi". The Windsor Star: p. C5.
- Beck, Marilyn (October 8, 1988). "'Alien Nation' may give Caan the boost he needs". St. Petersburg Times: p. 2D.
- Blowen, Michael (August 6, 1989). "'Alien Nation' Sophisticated sci-fi". Boston Globe: p. 76.
- Boyar, Jay (October 10, 1988). "'Alien Nation' just cops and robbers with intergalactic angle". Orlando Sentinal: p. C1.
- Elliott, David (October 13, 1988). "Caan fine, but movie just another cop-out". The San Diego Union: p. C8.
- Groen, Rick (October 12, 1988). "Dirty Harry buckles up with E.T. in latest buddy-cop variation". The Globe and Mail: p. C8.
- Kehr, David (October 7, 1988). "'Alien Nation' has too little wit, too many cliches". Chicago Tribune: p. K.
- Miller, Richard (October 7, 1988). "Two Elite events: Baker's film is out, Mitch Kanner joins. (Elite Films, Graham Baker)". Back Stage 29 (41): 1–2.
- --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- New Comment Ok, thanks. In a few short hours when I get home, I will look through those and try to incorporate those additional references. Theatrickal (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I found a few articles earlier that seem promising. I was going to post them after I'd read them all (discarding the useless ones and those you've already got), but I'm out for most of the evening and won't have time today. As you might want them sooner rather than later, take a look here. Steve T • C 17:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Theatrickal, if you need copies of any of these articles I listed, e-mail me and I can reply with them. --Andy Walsh (talk) 20:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional Comment Hi Steve. I will look through that scrapboard as well. But just after a quick run-through, some of the information from that list is already in the article. Posts from Ebert, Maslin and Kempley. The racism card and references towards Outer Heat/In the Heat of the Night are also present. Plus, other references with immigration officials and the alien mix are mentioned numerous times. But I will do a thorough check tonight. Thanks. Theatrickal (talk) 18:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak object Comment While there are many things that are good about the article, there are a few things that are bothering me:
- The "Cast" section needs expanding, as there is nothing there except the character and the actor who portrays them. You need to write about what kind of role the character plays in the film, and (if possible) how that character originated. For and example, look at this.
- You need to expand the "Music and soundtrack" section. It is very bland and short, barely telling you anything about the soundtrack. For more information, look at this.
Cheers.--Guy546(Talk) 22:50, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi, well I'm not sure thats exactly the right course of action. Much of the information added to the cast section would simply be redundant info. Information about the cast members are given in the plot section. There's no need to list it twice. Also, many of the cast members in the list are just minor characters. They have a few lines in the film, and are shown for only a few minutes. 90% of the film has 3-4 characters that are shown fairly often. So I don't think that expansion is necessary. If anything, perhaps the article doesn't really need a casting section to begin with. According to WP:MOSFILM, the casting section is not necessarily needed if the characters are described completely in the plot. As far as the music is concerned, there isn't really much expansion that can be done. There was no soundtrack release of the original score by Sobel, and I've put all the information I could find so far. If you can come up with referenced content to supplement it, feel free to make an addition. But I wasn't able to. Theatrickal (talk) 00:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 12:58, 10 April 2010 [64].
USS Triton (SSRN-586)
- Nominator(s): Marcd30319 (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because... the USS Triton completed its shakedown cruise on 11 May 1960, which included the first submerged circumnavigation of the world, fifty years ago. Triton was commanded by Captain Edward L. Beach, a highly-decorated U.S. naval officer and best-selling author. This article has just undergone a MILHIST A-class review. Thank you for your consideration, and I look forward to our collaboration. Marcd30319 (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links, external links and alt text look good. Ucucha 16:12, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I find nothing lacking the in article. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Question why does the sentence "The late Admiral Lent had been the earlier Triton's first commanding officer" require 5 citations to its accuracy?GraemeLeggett (talk) 23:07, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Follow-up:The other four citations dealt with the search for the original ship's bell that went missing during Triton's 1962-1964 overhaul. I have removed these citations as being extraneous to the overall quality of this article. The citation from Captain Beach's book on the submerged circumnavigation is sufficient. Thank you for inquiring. Marcd30319 (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. This still needs quite a bit of work IMO. A few examples:
- The Contruction history section says that the sub was launched by Louise Will, but the info box says Louise Willis.
- Typo corrected. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "In 1993, she was towed to Puget Sound Naval Shipyard to go through the Nuclear Powered Ship and Submarine Recycling Program, with this process initiated effective 1 October 2007." Very awkward
- Revised to read: In 1993, she was towed to Puget Sound Naval Shipyard to go through the Nuclear Powered Ship and Submarine Recycling Program. Effective 1 October 2007, ex-Triton landed on the keel resting blocks in the drydock basin to begin this recycling process. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Both reactors shared the same ship compartment." How could that be, if one was at the front and the other at the back?
- This is how it was described by Captain Edward L. Beach's book Around the World Submerged, but I have deleted this sentence to avoid any future issues. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Triton's dual-reactor plant served a number of operational and engineering objectives ..." It may have met some objectives, but it didn't serve them.
- Corrected. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "... specifically the high speed requirement to meet its radar-picket mission, which continue to be sources of speculation and controversy to this day." What is "continue" relating to here? The mission, in which case it ought to be "continues"?
- Corrected. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Design work on a nuclear-powered radar picket submarine began in 1954–1955.[20] It would have a three-level hull ...". There's a lot of this kind of use of the subjunctive. Why "would have", rather than "had"?
- Corrected to read: Design work on a nuclear-powered radar picket submarine (SSRN) began in 1954–1955. As initally designed, it would have a three-level hull, with its Combat Intelligence Center (CIC) located on the middle level.
- Subjunctive abatement: Done. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Triton's made her first dive ..."
- 'Corrected.
- "Work on the Triton at Electric Boat was delayed ...". Why the Triton?
- Deleted: "the" Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "During this period, the rising threat posed by Soviet submarine forces increased the Navy's demands for nuclear-powered attack submarines ...". What period? As the opening sentence of the Overhaul and Conversion section it looks like the period being discussed in the period of Triton's overhaul and conversion.
- Revised: Moved to Initial deployments section. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Triton was the only non-Soviet submarine designed with a two-reactor propulsion plant, with her S4G reactors being identical seagoing versions of the land-based S3G reactor prototype, both of which comprised the Submarine Advanced Reactor (SAR) program, a joint venture between the U.S. Navy, Atomc Energy Commission(AEC), and General Electric." Bit of a word salad there.
- Revised to read: Triton was the only non-Soviet submarine designed with a two-reactor propulsion plant. Her S4G reactors was an identical seagoing versions of the land-based S3G reactor prototype. Both reactors comprised the Submarine Advanced Reactor (SAR) program, a joint venture between the U.S. Navy, Atomc Energy Commission(AEC), and General Electric. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Since the Navy no longer had any plans to use Triton radar picket capability ...". Should this be "Triton's radar picket capability?
- Revised to read: Since the Navy no longer had any plans to use Triton's radar picket capability... Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Finally, Triton was the name of one of the submersibles used in the Submarine Voyage attraction at Disneyland which operated from 1959 to 1998." And this is relevant how?
- This is under the Cultural references section. The Disneyland Submarine Voyage attraction honored a number of pioneering nuclear submarines (i.e., Nautilus, Seawolf, Skate, Skipjack, George Washington, Patrick Henry, and Ethan Allen) and therefore, it is appropriate and relevant as a cultural reference. Marcd30319 (talk) 13:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The Contruction history section says that the sub was launched by Louise Will, but the info box says Louise Willis.
--Malleus Fatuorum 00:47, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Query: What is the current status of this FAC review? I have responded to all issues raised thus far, corrected any subjunctive, typographical, or grammatical errors, and replied to the question regarding the Cultural references section. What issues remain to be addressed? Thank you for your assistance. Marcd30319 (talk) 14:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Speaking only for myself, I'm still not entirely happy with this article, but I'm not quite unhappy enough to oppose its promotion. I gave a few examples above, here are a few more:
- "After operating for only two years in her designed role, the Grumman WF-2 Tracer airborne early warning aircraft made her obsolete as a radar picket submarine." The expectation raised in this sentence is that the Grumann WF-2 is the subject of the opening "her", but it becomes clear at the end of the sentence that "her" refers to the sub. It's tiring to read stuff like that.
- Fixed. Marcd30319 (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "A unique submarine, she also had the distinction of being the only non-Soviet submarine to be powered by two nuclear reactors." Not quite sure about this. What was it that made her unique?
- Triton is unique because she went around the world submerged on her maiden voyage, a significant historical operational achievement, and she was the only non-Soviet submarine to be powered by two nuclear reactors, a significant engineering attribute. Marcd30319 (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, unique in our naval articles denotes that the vessel or boat in this case was not the member of a ship class and was the single ship built to the design. For some FAs that use this terminology, look in the infoboxes of SMS Von der Tann and SMS Seydlitz. -MBK004 04:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "To meet its radar picket roles, Triton's main air search radar initially used the AN/SPS-26 ...". Wasn't that just the one role?
- Noted and corrected. Marcd30319 (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "As built, Triton featured a knife-like bow, with a bulbous forefoot, to enhance her surfaced sea-keeping, as well as possessing a high reserve buoyancy ...". The tenses seem to flop about here. "Featured ... as well as possessing"? What's "as built" trying to tell me? Were the features being described here modified later?
- Corrected. Marcd30319 (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Triton's first commanding officer, Captain Edwrad L. Beach ...". Was that really his name?
- Corrected. Marcd30319 (talk) 23:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In short, I think this article still needs a good deal of tidying up, not just fixing up the specific issues raised here; they're just examples of the kind of things that need to be looked at. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
What makes http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08586.htm a reliable source?
- I think that NavSource is a good on-line place to start researching U.S. naval vessels, but I can substitute verifiable sources for both NavSource references cited below. Marcd30319 (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Michael Mohl (2006). USS Tambor (SS-198). Submarine Photo Archive. NavSource.org: This source was added by another contributor who was acting in good faith. This NavSource link showed a photograph of a Torpedo Data Computer (TDC) from World War Two. The source of this photograph and accompanying text was from U.S. Submarines Through 1945, An Illustrated Design History by Norman Friedman (Naval Institute Press, 1995) and partial text courtesy of chinfo.navy.mil. I will swap this source out for Friedman book. Marcd30319 (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- USS Triton (SSRN-586). Submarine Photo Archive. NavSource.org: This source was added by another contributor who was acting in good faith. It duplicates what is available in the on-line USS Triton entry of the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships at the U.S. Naval History and Heritage Command in Washington, DC, and I have substituted this with the DANFS. Marcd30319 (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See below. Marcd30319 (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gone. Marcd30319 (talk) 19:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- These two sources were used only because the Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea TV episode "Mutiny", broadcast on January 11, 1965, cited in this article is available for viewing there. If the original teleplay from this episode was available, I would have cited that as the source. Since is now readily available, I used these two online services. Also, I used both online services to avoid any suggestion of favoritism.
- Gone. Marcd30319 (talk) 19:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- So you've replaced the last two? Ealdgyth - Talk 18:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See above. Marcd30319 (talk) 19:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah. Well, I have two problems here, one is that the sites aren't actually the reference you're wanting, you're wanting to cite the episode itself, which is relatively easy to do. Secondly, are these sites authorized to host the episode? We're not allowed to link to copyright violations, so the sites need permission to host the episode. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can use this reference to cite the episode in question (Anchors, Jr., William E. (March–April 1992). "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea". Epi-Log 1 (1): 23) and delete Fancast and DailyMotion although Fancast does list Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea in a press release so licensing with 20th Century Fox is very likely. Marcd30319 (talk) 21:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah. Well, I have two problems here, one is that the sites aren't actually the reference you're wanting, you're wanting to cite the episode itself, which is relatively easy to do. Secondly, are these sites authorized to host the episode? We're not allowed to link to copyright violations, so the sites need permission to host the episode. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See above. Marcd30319 (talk) 19:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- So you've replaced the last two? Ealdgyth - Talk 18:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your suggestions and support. Marcd30319 (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
- Sorry I'm late to the party. I understand Malleus's comments to mean he's looking for more copyediting before he can support; I'll give it a shot, but please feel free to tell me if you'd prefer I not make edits, I know it can be stressful for people to fiddle with something you've put this much work into when it's sitting at FAC. Please check my work. - Dank (push to talk) 02:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Welcome to the party. I am the principal contributor to the article under FAC review. I am not going to going to split semantic hairs with any editor-reviewer, but I will look at the alterations. My objective is to have this article ready for consideration as the Featured Article of the Day for May 11, the 50th anniversary of end of the first submarged circumanvigation. Good luck and thank you.Marcd30319 (talk) 15:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not here to hold it up, I'm here to speed it up; if reviewers have a positive reaction, then I'm heading in the right direction. I don't see anything in the reviews so far that suggests this is going to take a while. A quick response to "split hairs": there are a lot of us who scratch our heads in puzzlement that the human race seems to be so attached to its tribal instincts; most wives will confirm that their husbands act like cave-men, and social scientists started doing a great job of describing the related phenomena in the 1990s; see for instance Pinker's How the Mind Works. We all have tribal instincts when it comes to judging what kind of work is important: spearing an animal or busting someone's head open seem at least "interesting" to everyone; arguing about how best to tell the story of these things strikes a lot of people as not a real job, more like being fussy or self-important or worse. But my position and the position of a lot of FAC reviewers (and you can disagree) is that there's a way to write so that a wide readership will easily and precisely understand what we're saying. There are useful guides to follow, such as AP Stylebook, Chicago, and the combined wisdom (if you like) of everyone who's commented on language questions on Wikipedia. I'm not going to be perfect, and you can revert any of my edits, but I can increase the odds that people will support at FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 15:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Welcome to the party. I am the principal contributor to the article under FAC review. I am not going to going to split semantic hairs with any editor-reviewer, but I will look at the alterations. My objective is to have this article ready for consideration as the Featured Article of the Day for May 11, the 50th anniversary of end of the first submarged circumanvigation. Good luck and thank you.Marcd30319 (talk) 15:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know if SHIPS has any official position on calling a ship "ex-Triton". In my Google search, pages such as this one (probably talking about a different Triton) suggest that "ex-Triton" means the ship used to be called Triton but now has a new name; "ex-triton" doesn't pull up many hits with the intended meaning. I've looked through all the FA USS ships and all the nuclear sub articles beginning with "A", and none of them use the "ex-" terminology to refer to a decommissioned ship or hulk. How many sources use that term as opposed to "Triton", "the former Triton" or "the hulk"? - Dank (push to talk) 03:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The term ex-Triton was used in official correspondence about the ship from the public affiars office at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard and the Naval Sea Systems Command. Also, the ships going through Ship-Submarine Recycling Program are referred to as ex-ships (e.g., ex-Long Beach, ex-Triton) in the "U.S. Naval Battle Forec Change" section in the annual Naval Review edition for the U.S. Naval Institute. Therefore, this seems to be a comman practice by the U.S. Navy. Please note that Triton was striken from the Naval Vessel Registry (NVR) in 1986 and following that entry in the article, I started referring to the ship as ex-Triton. Think of the removal of a warship's name from the NVR as being the same as removing the name of a deceased person from a community's tax rolls and local telephone directory. I hope this clarifies. Marcd30319 (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, that's plenty of support for the term. I'd still like to keep my edit in the lead removing the "ex" terminology (because ideally, the lead shouldn't present any terminology that requires much thought on the part of the reader), but keep the "ex" terminology everywhere after the lead. I'll try to be consistent with my edits; it should the "the ex-Triton". - Dank (push to talk) 15:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Concur with this. Marcd30319 (talk) 15:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, that's plenty of support for the term. I'd still like to keep my edit in the lead removing the "ex" terminology (because ideally, the lead shouldn't present any terminology that requires much thought on the part of the reader), but keep the "ex" terminology everywhere after the lead. I'll try to be consistent with my edits; it should the "the ex-Triton". - Dank (push to talk) 15:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The term ex-Triton was used in official correspondence about the ship from the public affiars office at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard and the Naval Sea Systems Command. Also, the ships going through Ship-Submarine Recycling Program are referred to as ex-ships (e.g., ex-Long Beach, ex-Triton) in the "U.S. Naval Battle Forec Change" section in the annual Naval Review edition for the U.S. Naval Institute. Therefore, this seems to be a comman practice by the U.S. Navy. Please note that Triton was striken from the Naval Vessel Registry (NVR) in 1986 and following that entry in the article, I started referring to the ship as ex-Triton. Think of the removal of a warship's name from the NVR as being the same as removing the name of a deceased person from a community's tax rolls and local telephone directory. I hope this clarifies. Marcd30319 (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I get that "intelligence information, electronic surveillance, and fighter aircraft interception control" might in fact mean distinct things ... but do they really? Wasn't this just radar looking for ships and aircraft (and missiles, if the radar was sensitive enough)? - Dank (push to talk) 03:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not necessarily. For example, during its submerged circumnavigation of the world, Triton carried out photographic reconnaissance of the various locations encountered during the voyage. This is intelligence gathering. The same can be said of her deployment to the Arctic to monitor the aftermath of the Soviet super H-bomb detonation, which probably included collecting air samples to provide data from the fallout. Both Norman Friedman's U.S. Submarines since 1945: An Illustrated Design History and the article on Triton by Largess and Horwitz made particular note of the electronic gathering capabilities of Triton given its large Combat Intelligence Center (CIC). And according to Largess and Horwitz , Triton did carry out air traffic control missions using its replacement BPS-2 air search radar. I hope this clarifies. Marcd30319 (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Excellent, thanks. - Dank (push to talk) 15:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not necessarily. For example, during its submerged circumnavigation of the world, Triton carried out photographic reconnaissance of the various locations encountered during the voyage. This is intelligence gathering. The same can be said of her deployment to the Arctic to monitor the aftermath of the Soviet super H-bomb detonation, which probably included collecting air samples to provide data from the fallout. Both Norman Friedman's U.S. Submarines since 1945: An Illustrated Design History and the article on Triton by Largess and Horwitz made particular note of the electronic gathering capabilities of Triton given its large Combat Intelligence Center (CIC). And according to Largess and Horwitz , Triton did carry out air traffic control missions using its replacement BPS-2 air search radar. I hope this clarifies. Marcd30319 (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Replying to Trekphiler's reversions: "purpose-built" is "chiefly British", although of course these days British English and American English are converging faster than ever before. This article is American English. The question of whether to say "X-class ships" or "Xs" comes up a lot, and we at WP:SHIPS generally take the position that the former is better; that's what the sclass template is for. Since so many naval sources say Xs, I'm not dead-set against it, but to anyone other than a naval buff, it doesn't sound right; you don't say for instance "the Endeavors" to mean all the space shuttles that were designed at the same time as the Endeavor, only one of which is called Endeavor. Regarding SSR as an "introduced" term, just saying it doesn't introduce it, we would also need to define it, if it means something different than the designation for radar picket ships. - Dank (push to talk) 16:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, stopping for now, although I didn't get very far. I'm not opposing, but I can't support at this stage, per my comment immediately above. - Dank (push to talk) 17:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Three weeks, without consensus to promote, closing. Also, will the nominator please refrain from overuse of bolding, which makes the FAC hard to read. Please address concerns, and come back to FAC in a few weeks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [65].
Hurricane Hazel
This isn't your usual hurricane article: you see, in 1954, Hurricane Hazel had the audacity to make a trip, with the strength of Category 1 hurricane, to Toronto (that's Canada, to the west of upstate New York) and cause havoc there. It also washed out western Haiti and the Carolinas' coast in particular. That was sufficient to retire the storm's name. The article itself became a GA in June, but I've recently done some considerable expansion, and I think it's ready for FAC. Many thanks for Juliancolton for giving it a quick copyedit, Risker who took some pictures, and to Martin Taylor, who donated his pictures, taken the day after Hazel, under the CC-BY-SA-3.0 license. Maxim(talk) 02:35, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No problems in dab links, external links, or alt text. Ucucha 03:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- first impression its looking ok, last part of the Meteorological history section is awkward After leaving Toronto, the storm continued into northern(through?) Ontario and(into?) northern Quebec, and lost(loosing?) most of its remaining power over sparsely populated areas. Hazel fully dissipated on October 18, having caused 81 casualties in Ontario.[9][6].
- Looking at the Impact section, subsection Carribbean Islands it says there are 9 fatalities in Puerto Rica mentioned first but then the next subsection Haiti starts with Hazel first brought casualties when it struck Haiti on October 12 as a Category 2 storm -- have I missed something in the sequence. Noting it follows the description of the storms progression in the Meteorological history section and its referred to as Hazel before causing damage described in the Carribean section.
- Betty Kennedy estimates that as much 200 billion litres of water fell on to the Humber River's watershed alone.[32] whos Betty Kennedy what makes her estimates significant?
I linked Humber River and Holland Marsh as well so besides the above issues its ready to be promoted. Gnangarra 14:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the helpful comments. I think I've fixed all the awkwardness. Maxim(talk) 15:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support'; even better, also notice you fixed the other concerns as well, though you didnt take the challenge of who is Betty Kennedy :) you have my support, well done. Gnangarra 15:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- She's the author of Hurricane Hazel, a book I used a fair bit as a reference. What she did is she took the average amount of rain that fell over the watershed (9 inches, I think), got the amount of water per a certain area, then used that, with the area of the watershed, to calculate how much water fell on the watershed; I nixed it because I felt that the up to 90% of the 200 mm of rain did the job equally as well. Two hundred billion litres of water is a bit vague, too. Maxim(talk) 15:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support'; even better, also notice you fixed the other concerns as well, though you didnt take the challenge of who is Betty Kennedy :) you have my support, well done. Gnangarra 15:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just saying.... here's a major, recent review that hasn't been used as a source: Sasata (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Title: Hurricane hazel: Disaster relief, politics, and society in Canada, 1954-55
- Author(s): Robinson, D; Cruikshank, K
- Source: JOURNAL OF CANADIAN STUDIES-REVUE D ETUDES CANADIENNES Volume: 40 Issue: 1 Pages: 37-70 Published: WIN 2006
- Yes, it hasn't been used a source. I would hardly call it 'major' -- it has an extreme and minority viewpoint, implying that officials in affected areas were searching for an excuse to clear some areas they perceived as slums, so when Hazel was coming, that was their chance. A huge chunk of it chronicles government squabbles, too. Perhaps it would deserve a mention in the subarticle, but if I were to add a bit on this theory, then I'd point out that Marie Curtis, reeve of Long Branch, one of the heavily-affected areas, had a park named after her, and I'm pretty sure there were other honours, for her work after Hazel. In short: adding such an extreme viewpoint would require it to be balanced so the article would be NPOV, and since I'm using summary style for the Canada sections (and possibly failing a little bit, too, btw), I'm not using this source, since there are more important topics to cover. Maxim(talk) 20:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - a few minor points:
- "Hazel was particularly destructive in Toronto because of a combination of a lack of experience of dealing with tropical storms" - too many "of"s
- "Hurricane Hazel made landfall near the North Carolina/South Carolina border by the morning of October 15, striking Myrtle Beach, South Carolina before moving north." - not sure if this is proper wording. I would make the statement more firm; i.e., by substituting an "on" for "by", unless the time of landfall is a rough estimate.
- "The storm drastically slowed on reaching the region" - wouldn't "upon" be more proper?
- "it was centred" - unless this is proper Hurricane terminology, "centred" is British English, and the article appears to be written in US Eng. See WP:ENGVAR.
- In File:Hurricane Hazel -- St.Phillips Road.jpg's caption, "needed to fixed or outright rebuilt after Hurricane Hazel." - typo.
- In current Ref 14, "Barbara, p. 169" → "Stokes, p. 169"
For Betty Kennedy's book in references, shouldn't it be "Kennedy, Betty"?
I might have more later. A truly fascinating storm. - I.M.S. (talk) 23:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Hurricane Hazel was the deadliest and costliest hurricane of the 1954 Atlantic hurricane season, and one of the deadliest and costliest storms of the 20th century." — would you agree with replacing one of the "deadliest and costliest"s with another word, perhaps "devastating"? It would remove the redundancy and help with flow, in my opinion. - I.M.S. (talk) 03:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Comments/leaning oppose- In the lede, the first sentence seems to be a bit of an exaggeration. There were many deadlier and costlier storms of the 20th century. Certainly its destruction was widespread, but try and find some wording that can be more quantitative.
- Fixed.
- Also in the lede, you say "On its way towards Canada, it passed through several more states", but the center didn't move through some of those you mentioned, like Delaware and New Jersey.
- Fixed.
- "bringing wind gusts near 160 km/h (99 mph)" - any reason the mph is so specific? It happens elsewhere in the article, where the first unit is rounded to an even number, but the converted unit is not rounded.
- Fixed.
- Parts of the met. history are confusing. First, I suggest you use the Monthly Weather Review more for the MH, since it's another official government source of info to the CHC. Some of the info is inconsistent with the best track, which has it as a tropical storm before hurricane status. It also has a different forward speed. I'm not saying that the CHC is a bad source for the MH, but if there are inconsistencies, then it should be in line with the official database.
- I think I've fixed all the discrepancies, but I could take an extra look just in case?
- "As a whole, the storm proved to be very unpredictable, defying forecasts on multiple occasions, which made it even more dangerous" - I think the last part is not necessary, as it's a POV. Tropical cyclones are always dangerous. More importantly, perhaps, why did it turn to the north?
- Fixed the dangerous part, although I haven't been able to find a reason as to why it turned -- my personal opinion is that there was a change in wind patterns, but I'm afraid I can't give an answer that'll satisfy WP:NOR and WP:V. ;-)
- "The storm crossed Haiti two days later as a Category 2 hurricane, killing over 1,000 people" - since that is the first sentence of a new paragraph, I am unsure what the date reference is, so you'd be better just saying the date. It might be worth noting that the Saffir-Simpson scale was not in use then. Perhaps just list the wind speed at landfall? Also, the MH is only supposed to be for meteorological details. I don't mind the rainfall stuff later on, but it gets redundant with the casualties in the lede, MH, and impact. Somewhere, regarding Haiti, you should mention the mountain peaks are 8,000 feet tall, per the MWR.
- Fixed.
- Have you found any meteorological details why it restrengthened north of the Bahamas? Also, I'm curious, how big was the storm?
- The initial prediction was for it to lose steam, perhaps the waters were warm enough to sustain, or it was an anomaly (so I'm afraid the answer's the same as for the question about why it turned north. No luck for the size of the storm.
- Landfall intensity for NC/SC would be good.
- Fixed.
- "Hazel accelerated to over 80 km/h (50 mph) upon landfall" - technically, according to the official database from 2010, that is untrue. The fastest it got as an extratropical storm was 48 mph. On the other hand, the MWR from 1954 says it accelerated to 60 mph.
- Fixed.
- "The storm drastically slowed upon reaching the region" - again, inconsistent with the official database.
- Fixed.
- The article seems really Canada-centred. Any preparations/warnings for Haiti? Any more preparations for North/South Carolina? You mention that evacuation warnings were issued, but you don't say if people actually evacuated. Did the National Guard help out at all? Were there any repercussions to the hurricane threatening the Carolinas?
- I'm really not finding much on Haiti, especially nothing with regards to preparations. Probably it's partially due to Papa Doc Duvalier's voodoo cult there at the time. They thought it would bypass the US altogether, so nothing more.
- I'd recommend merging the "Caribbean Islands" and "Haiti section". Considering the flooding in Puerto Rico was the worst in over 50 years, there should be more details there. Surely there's more info in another source. Is there any more on physical damage in Haiti? You have the mudslides and the crops, but not much about buildings. Were people left homeless?
- Fixed.
- Also, have you searched for a more updated Haiti death toll? This report from 1993 said 410 deaths in Haiti, with 250,000 affected.
- The problem with Haiti is that death toll is somewhat vague due to the conditions there. I'm using the estimate (as much as 1000 people) from Gifford 2004.
- You're missing any impact in the Bahamas, which concerns me with regards to comprehensiveness. I know it's an historic cyclone, but one can't just focus on the main points and expect it to be comprehensive. As I said above, the MWR has lots of stuff, and in this case, some Bahamian info.
- Fixed, it was a silly oversight.
- Overall writing is good. One thing sticks out. In the US section of the impact, you have a sentence starting with "However"; however, "however" isn't meant to start a sentence, and it should be preceded by a semicolon.
- Fixed.
- The US section seems somewhat lacking. Was there much impact outside of the Carolinas? Even in the Carolinas, you go into a good bit about certain coastal sections, but I'm baffled that 15,000 houses were destroyed, without mention of other forms of impact. Don't forget to inflate the damage totals. Speaking of Carolinas - you mostly only mention North Carolina impact. Was there anything in South Carolina? My biggest problem with the US impact is that it's four paragraphs, while the Canada section is seven *and* it has a sub-article. The Canada section should be trimmed to be in line with the US section. After all, there were 95 fatalities in US and 81 in Canada, and the damage was greater, monetary wise, in the US.
- Fixed.
- Don't get me wrong, it is a good article, and a great source of information on the storm. I just feel it is too biased toward Canada's impact, with not enough focus or information on other areas. That is why I have to oppose at this time. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Part of the reason IMO is that there are simply more sources for Hazel in Canada than in the US. In the Carolinas, a hurricane is not unusual, and a major one is cause for concern, but again it happens; in Canada, especially in Toronto, the reaction can be termed "WTF?!?!", so that'd explain more availability of Canada-related sources. I think the article is more balanced now. Thanks a lot for your review. Maxim(talk) 02:46, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, fair enough. I only have two other suggestions, to have an impact table (like in Hurricane Isabel), and to remove the Raymore Drive pic (since it's not directly related to the storm), but you've addressed my concerns enough that I can support. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In the lede, the first sentence seems to be a bit of an exaggeration. There were many deadlier and costlier storms of the 20th century. Certainly its destruction was widespread, but try and find some wording that can be more quantitative.
- Is Rotberg first author, or Clague? I see two different versions in notes versus refs. • Ling.Nut 16:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - A well written/researched article which i have been reading over the last few weeks.Jason Rees (talk) 00:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 01:36, 14 April 2010 [66].
Big Butte Creek
I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets all of the criteria. Although quite small, I believe it covers nearly everything about the small stream. The article is very similar to Little Butte Creek (Rogue River), which recently passed its FAC. My thanks to Wiki.Tango.Foxtrot who passed its GAN last month, and everyone who helped out with Little Butte Creek, because, like I said, this article is very similar. :) Sincerely, LittleMountain5 00:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links; alt text good. External link to http://rvtv.roguedatavault.net/asxgen/medford/videos/water.wmv seems to be acting oddly. Ucucha 01:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- comments very nice article. I have some prose suggestions you might consider.
- lead
whileis generally temporal. Although I understand you're trying to convey that the two forks flow from two different sources, I suggest that you use either a semi-colon or make this a compound sentence, rather than use the word while.- course
what begins near Mount McLoughlin? The faults, or Fourbit?- are Big Butte springs hot springs? (I suppose they must be, given that there is fault in there)
- Discharge
the first sentence is lonely. Can it be combined w the next paragraph?- A gauge on the south fork above its confluence with Willow Creek recorded data between 1986 and 1991.... According to a USGS gauge on the south fork above Willow Creek, between 1986 and 1991, .....?
- Measurements were taken on the south fork 2 miles (3.2 km) above its mouth near Butte Falls between 1911 and 1991..... Similar measurements on the south fork ...between 1911 and 1991 showed....
- I'm wondering if this could be in a chart. It's hard to read.
- can you push the contrast a bit on your map? I found it hard to read.
more later.....This is fascinating and I'm looking forward to supporting it! Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review!
- @Comment 1: Changed to a compound sentence.
- @Comment 2: Fourbit, fixed.
- @Comment 3: I don't think they're hot springs, but I'm not sure. I'll do some research.
- @Comment 4: Merged.
- @Comment 5: Reworded, thanks!
- @Comment 6: Reworded.
- @Comment 7: That's certainly an option, although I'm not too experienced with charts. I'll take a stab at it sometime in the next few days.
- @Comment 8: Would a darker blue for the streams and stream names make it easier to read?
- Thanks again, LittleMountain5 02:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that would help. or a bluer blue would be good. There has to be someone with some expertise who could help. That paragraph with all the data is really hard to read and understand. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made a table in my sandbox, see what you think. It could either use the section header or the table header; which do you think would look nicer? LittleMountain5 14:36, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- ...and GrahamColm has darkened the labels on the map. (Thanks!) LittleMountain5 14:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that would help. or a bluer blue would be good. There has to be someone with some expertise who could help. That paragraph with all the data is really hard to read and understand. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Glad to know I wasn't the only one who couldn't read the letter on the map. It looks much better now (probably could be darker, but it's readable now).
- chart is also good. I'd add some text to explain how the information was collected. Just a few sentences, with your citation.
- a few last comments.
- Do flora inhabit? Just a question. I'm not sure that is the right word.
- Sedimentation sometimes occurs due to road construction and logging....Road construction and logging sometimes cause sedimentation, leading to high turbidity, but .... Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support – I was about to say that I have tweaked the watershed map a little because I coudn't read it very well, but I see that you were watching me :) This is a well-written article with an engaging prose style and is a valuable contribution that I think satisfies all the criteria. I see it's been at FAC for some time. Let's hope for a few more reviews. Best of luck. Graham Colm (talk) 14:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your support! I just happened to notice (when making the table) that the map labels were darker than usual... two minutes after you darkened them. It looks great, thanks again. Sincerely, LittleMountain5 23:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Wonderfully written and illustrated. Well done. Pyrrhus16 23:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments by Finetooth: Sorry to come in so late. I didn't notice that this one until today. I'm leaning toward support, but I have a fairly short list of nitpicks and quibbles. In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I'm a member of the rivers and Oregon projects.
Lead:- "until it empties into the Rogue River about 1 mile (1.6 km) southwest of Lost Creek Dam." - Would it be helpful to add the dam's other name (William L. Jess Dam) in parentheses; i.e., Lost Creek Dam (William L. Jess Dam)?
- "The small town of Butte Falls was incorporated in 1911." - Technically Butte Falls is a city, although a small one. Also, should it be linked to Butte Falls here on first use?
- "The creek was named due to its close proximity to Mount McLoughlin, formerly known as Snowy Butte." - How about "The creek was named after Snowy Butte, an early name for Mount McLoughlin"?
- Course
- "There are two main forks of Big Butte Creek: the north fork and the south fork. They meet each other at 2,244 feet (684 m) above sea level." - Could these two short sentences be combined, thus: "The two main forks of Big Butte Creek, the north fork and the south fork, merge at 2,244 feet (684 m) above sea level"?
- "The Big Butte Springs are located on Willow Creek, and the Medford Aqueduct parallels the south fork all the way to Butte Falls." - Would it be helpful to add the purpose of the aqueduct to this sentence; e.g., "Medford Aqueduct, which carries drinking water to cities in the Rogue Valley, parallels the south fork... "?
- "The south fork flows over the 15-foot (4.6 m) tall Butte Falls," - Would it be helpful to add here that the waterfall is near the city (if that is the case)? Otherwise readers may confuse the city and the falls.
- "from its mouth in the Pacific Ocean" - Is the mouth "in" the ocean? "On" and "at" don't seem quite right either. Hmmm. Maybe "its mouth, where it enters the Pacific Ocean"?
- Watershed
- "The Big Butte Creek watershed experiences a Mediterranean climate... " - "Has" rather than "experiences"?
- Could you add just one or two more sentences to the geology paragraph that mention the volcanic nature of the Cascades. Mount McLoughlin, for example, is a volcano. The link to pyroclastic is almost enough, but not everybody will click on the link; "volcano" is much more familiar (and nicely illustrated in the article).
- Could you add a sentence naming the nearby watersheds? What watersheds border the Big Butte Creek watershed?
- Flora and fauna
- "Wikilink riparian zone in the last sentence?
- Recreation:
- "Many tourists also come to sight see." - "Sight-see" or "see the sights"?
- "has several stops along its length for hiking and vistas of the surrounding landscape" - Maybe "includes stops for hiking and viewing the landscape"?
- "a half day long drive" - This seems awkward without hyphens. Maybe "a half-day-long drive"? Or "a 12-hour drive"? Hmmm. What is meant by a half-day?
Notes:"Source elevation derived from the GNIS mouth elevations of the north and south forks." - Rather than "derived from" would "is identical to" be more clear?
- Finetooth (talk) 19:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you very much for your comments. All have been fixed, except riparian zone because it is linked earlier in the section (second to last sentence in the first paragraph). Thanks again, LittleMountain5 15:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Just one suggestion, could the captions be elaborated on a bit? They seem a bit too simple to me. Otherwise, it looks good. ceranthor 23:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nitpick: It looks like this is in en-us, but the things that measure the streams are called "gauges". In the US, they are "gages" (yes, it looks weird at first). Awickert (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)Did it. Don't have time to thoroughly review the article at the moment though so can't support or oppose (drop me a message if you do need another review though). Awickert (talk) 19:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:46, 8 April 2010 [67].
Royal National College for the Blind
- Nominator(s): Paul Largo (talk) 22:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this article meets the criteria for FA Status. It was promoted to GA in December 2008 and received a peer review in January 2010. All issues raised in the PR have been addressed. The article is well referenced, of reasonable length, covers the subject comprehensively, has been stable for a number of years, and reads well. Paul Largo (talk) 22:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments: A dead link to http://www.rncb.ac.uk/deasandjobbrokers/referral.shtml. No dab links. I added alt text. Do you really need the separate section about "Criticism"—can't that go under "History"? There are a few other small sections that could perhaps be merged. Ucucha 22:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dead link fixed. I suppose the criticisms section could be merged with History, although I'm concerned it might make that section a bit cumbersome to edit. Any ideas on how to approach this would be welcome. Also which other sections do you have in mind for a merge? Paul Largo (talk) 23:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Merged and renamed 'Athletics' section as 'Extracurricular activities' and merged 'Cutting Edge documentary' section into 'History'. Suggest renaming 'Criticism' as 'Restructuring' or something like that. Paul Largo (talk) 23:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You could add subsections to "History"; I think the restructuring is part of the history, isn't it? (Note that these are only suggestions.) Ucucha 00:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right that it is part of the history. I'll give it a go tomorrow evening. I might create a draft first and post a link to it here. Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 00:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've moved 'Criticism' to the 'History' section and renamed it 'Restructuring'. I've also split 'History' into four subsections. Seems to look ok, but let me know what you think. Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right that it is part of the history. I'll give it a go tomorrow evening. I might create a draft first and post a link to it here. Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 00:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You could add subsections to "History"; I think the restructuring is part of the history, isn't it? (Note that these are only suggestions.) Ucucha 00:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Merged and renamed 'Athletics' section as 'Extracurricular activities' and merged 'Cutting Edge documentary' section into 'History'. Suggest renaming 'Criticism' as 'Restructuring' or something like that. Paul Largo (talk) 23:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dead link fixed. I suppose the criticisms section could be merged with History, although I'm concerned it might make that section a bit cumbersome to edit. Any ideas on how to approach this would be welcome. Also which other sections do you have in mind for a merge? Paul Largo (talk) 23:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
- What makes the following reliable sources?
- http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/26739705/
- http://www.responsesource.com/releases/rel_display.php?relid=23608&hilite=
- http://www.excellencegateway.org.uk/page.aspx?o=256746
http://www.myherefordshire.com/eventdetail.aspx?EventId=d378df2d-e787-403c-9925-8768e344bd06- http://www.leisureopportunities.co.uk/LOemail/wider_newsdetail1.cfm?codeID=121423&CFID=17765155&CFTOKEN=98897450
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Hollins/biography.htm
- Current ref 7 (Rose..) needs page numbers
- Newspaper and magazine titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper.
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply to Comments -
- Firstly, thanks for reviewing the article. This is the first artcle I've submitted to FAC so I'm on a bit of a learning curve. Therefore I have one or two questions.
- Are you saying the listed sources are unreliable? If so, please say that. If this is the case then I should be able to replace most of them with other references.
- With regard to the work paremeter, for example, should the Hereford Times refs appear as "work= Hereford Times|publisher= Newsquest Media Ltd"?
- The Rose reference was taken from an online copy of the book which is no longer available and which didn't have page numbers inluded (it was basically one large document). I will be able to replace this with a reference from the Illingworth book (including page numbers), but there's another reference slightly further on (Bell) which I probably won't be able to do this (though I have made inquiries about it).
- THanks Paul Largo (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not that I'm saying they are unreliable, but that I'm not sure they are reliable. If you have a case for the fact that they shoudl be relialbe, you can make it, otherwise, replacing them is probalby best. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can replace most of them so am happy to do so. If I wanted to argue they were reliable how would I go about doing that? Paul Largo (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've replaced the MyHerefordshire link as that is questionable as a source. I think Patient UK is probably ok since it appears to me to be well researched and was compiled by medical experts. The Learning and Skills Improvement Service is a UK government body so that's probably reliable. I notice the Response Source article was posted by the college, I've left that in for now but added a reference from the TES - there are surprisingly few reliable online references for the beacon status and the RS article contains som interesting information. MusicWeb references one of the students who attended the college, but that can be removed if necessary. The only other reference outstanding is the LeisureOpportunities article, which references information about the leisure complex, but again that can be removed if necessary along with the information it supports (though this would be a piry as it makes an important statement about the facility). Finally I've swapped the Rose book for the Illingworth book which contained much the same information and can be properly referenced so should be all right. Let me know if there are any more problems with it and I'll take another look. Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. The best method is a mix of all of the above. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for getting back to me. I'll take a look over the weekend and see what I can find out about them. Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. The best method is a mix of all of the above. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not that I'm saying they are unreliable, but that I'm not sure they are reliable. If you have a case for the fact that they shoudl be relialbe, you can make it, otherwise, replacing them is probalby best. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Music Web International has an onsite blurb which describes the main players http://www.musicweb-international.com/historyMotW2000.html - but if you find it hard to tie down indications of reliability, Hollins has an article in the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians which also mentions that he was a pupil at the Royal Normal College - there's an online version at http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/42802 (access is normally subscriber only, but most UK libraries offer access via institutional arrangements, normally you just need to enter your library ticket barcode, check your local libary website for details). David Underdown (talk) 14:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for finding that. I've checked it out and it seems ok so I've used it to replace the Music Web link. I'll take a look at the other sites as soon as I can, definitely some time today. Paul Largo (talk) 12:48, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Music Web International has an onsite blurb which describes the main players http://www.musicweb-international.com/historyMotW2000.html - but if you find it hard to tie down indications of reliability, Hollins has an article in the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians which also mentions that he was a pupil at the Royal Normal College - there's an online version at http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/42802 (access is normally subscriber only, but most UK libraries offer access via institutional arrangements, normally you just need to enter your library ticket barcode, check your local libary website for details). David Underdown (talk) 14:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Websites
Here are links to the "About Us" pages of the websites in question together with some brief information;
- Patient UK appears to be a comprehensive health information website authored by a number of doctors and other qualified professionals. Information is updated every two years or as required. Could be reliable due to the calibre of those operating/editing the site.
- Response Source appears to be an information gathering service for journalists, and connected with SourceWire. Not sure how reliable it is, however, although it's been going for a number of years. The College actually posted the press release concerning their Beacon Status. I think the same information is probably available on RNC's website and certainly the Response Source link could be removed as the same information is available from the TES article I added earlier in the week.
- Excellence Gateway seems to be a government run website connected with the Learning and Skills Improvement Service (itself a government body). Government sites tend to be fairly reliable so is probably ok.
- Leisure Opportunities is part of The Leisure Media Company Ltd, which was established in 1981 and which several business magazines and online services for professionals working in the leisure industry. The company says it is in partnership with over 20 trade bodies and has over 100,000 contacts in the industry (these are not listed though). Is probably reliable if used extensively in the leisure industry. Perhaps someone who works in leisure can help here.
Not sure how helpful this information is. I was talking to a friend off-wiki yesterday about this and he suggested I could ask for help at WP:RSN in determining whether or not these are reliable sources. I have to be away from my computer for a while shortly so will post a question there later this evening. Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to keep everyone up to date on this, I've opened a discussion on this at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Validating Sources (Permanent link). Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments (very minor)
Needs consistency throughout in use of quotation marks: there are some single quotes that need replacing with doubles.- In "Principals" section, "tendered her resignation" is needlessly wordy: how about "resigned"?
- Paralympic – sometimes capitalised, sometimes not.
- RNC – the contracted title is sometimes given as "the RNC" and sometimes just as "RNC". Need for consistency.
Braille – with or without capital? Again, usage varies within the article.
Hope these, though pernickety, are helpful. – Tim riley (talk) 07:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No probs. Thanks for the comments. I think I've sorted everything out. I've capitalised Paralympics and Braille, tweaked the "Principals" section and changed the contracted title so it refers to "RNC". I've think I've also sorted out the quotes - everything in the main body of the text should now be in double quotes (let me know if I've missed anything). I should just add that I haven't changed any quotes in references though as I've left the text how it appeared in the original articles. Again, let me know if I need to change these too and I'll be happy to di it. Cheers Paul Largo (talk) 20:56, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Full (but not too full) of relevant and evidently comprehensive information, well referenced and well written. - Tim riley (talk) 08:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest upgrading the sourcing concerns before bringing this back to FAC; reviewers are unlikely to support with so many sourcing concerns raised. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 10:09, 8 April 2010 [68].
2009 World Series
- Nominator(s): Staxringold talkcontribs 19:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I feel this article is up to the FA snuff. It's been through a PR, a failed FAC, got listed as a GA, and here I am again. The previous FAC really just went stale, I was happy to respond to any comments people brought up. As per Yellow Monkey's request at the time a Series Preview section was added, and a section noting the scandal involving NY governor David Paterson and his attending this World Series has now been added to the aftermath section. I have used 1926 World Series and 2004 World Series (the current FA World Series articles) as general style guides. The only major current issue of contention is the inclusion of a "Quotes" section. I have reverted the addition of uncited quotes (and will continue to as uncited material). I personally do not feel a quotes section follows Wikipedia's style guidelines (whether cited or not), but would welcome input on this subject. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links; external links working. Alt text is acceptable. You have one picture, that of Cliff Lee, with distracting dark and light bands; do you think that is acceptable in a featured article? Ucucha 20:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a question of accuracy of image versus quality of image. We also have this picture, much crisper and cleaner, but of Lee with the Indians. The image currently used unfortunately has the crowd's protective netting disrupting the image, but is of Lee actually with the Phillies. I'd be happy with either one. Staxringold talkcontribs 20:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Another possibility is not to give a picture of the man at all. Not knowing much about baseball, I wouldn't know how to weigh the issues of accuracy and quality. But I am not sure whether the current image is of acceptable quality for a featured article, especially when better images shouldn't be that hard to get, as for a recent event like this. Ucucha 21:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The issue is this. Cliff Lee was traded to the Phillies midway through last season and has left the team in this offseason. This leaves a brief window of 3-4 months worth of baseball where a potentially better image of Cliff Lee in a Phillies uniform could have been taken and released into a free license. Cliff Lee was far and away the central figure of Game 1 with a complete game nearly-shutout performance, if any player should have an image there it's him. If you don't think this image is of suitable quality for a featured work, do you think the alternative would be (assuming the caption included a note, as many of the images do, explaining when the photo was taken and thus why he's in a non-Phillies uniform)? Staxringold talkcontribs 21:16, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'll try to give a full review at some point, but some of the captions might be improved. Some of them are a bit too detailed.
- "U.S. flag during Opening Ceremony" – as I can't really see flag at the size the image is currently at, this might be better as "The opening ceremony for Game 3"
- "Phillies second baseman Chase Utley, pictured during the 2007 spring training, hit another two home runs this game for a total of five in the Series, tying a record held by Reggie Jackson." is much too long. How about "Phillies second baseman Chase Utley, pictured during spring training in 2007, tied a record with five home runs in the series." or something similar. Also (very minor), Matsui's caption says "pictured here" while Utley's just says "pictured"
- "The Yankees celebrate their 7–3 win
against the Philliesand the franchise's 27th World Series championship." One would assume the reader knows the teams playing. - "New York Yankees ticker-tape parade at New York City Hall" you don't need to repeat the franchise's full name, and I'm not sure you even need "Yankees" at all.
This is just from a spot check, so please go over the captions, particularly in the ones in the Series section, and see if anything can be shortened. Also, reference 15's publisher is AOL Sports, and you have both "MLB.com. Major League Baseball." and "MLB.com (Major League Baseball)." Cheers, Mm40 (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed all those you refer to here. I'll keep an eye out for possible caption shrinkages. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - as I go through this article in the next few days, I will leave comments.
The lead seems to be composed of various trivia (e.g. 2nd Phillies/Yanks World Series, nicknames for series, latest start), rather than a summary of the article's contents. Most of the article's body gives context to each team's season, previews the series, and then gives a synopsis of each game. I think the lead needs to be rewritten to incorporate this information (see 2004 World Series for a good example). Remember, according to WP:LEAD, "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article."Grammar issue in the lead ("The Series was the only the third to end in a month other than October.")- Some prose concerns - see my edits
- Wikilinking - some work needs to be done, as positions/baseball terms seem to be randomly linked within the first few sections (e.g. the Phillies' season summary doesn't link free agent, whereas the Yankees' summary does; some baseball positions are linked while others aren't). Remember, the first time a term is introduced in the body, it should be Wikilinked, and subsequent usages should not be linked (unless there is a good rationale for doing so).
The series preview section should probably discuss the bullpens briefly. There was some concern with the Yankees middle relievers' reliability, but Rivera was still thought to be a large advantage over Lidge.Player names should be consistently written throughout the article. For example, Raúl Ibáñez is spelled with and without the accent marks/tildes throughout the article. Make sure that any names that use these marks are consistently used.
- As far as I can see that one Raúl Ibáñez link you fixed was the only instance without the proper accents. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Use a non-breaking space for numbers that have labels or numbers that are made up of a numeral and prose (e.g. 25 million - place the non-breaking space between 25 and million).
- You caught most of em, but I'll keep an eye out. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Inconsistent reference formatting - the ESPN.com references were cited using a mix of "cite web" and "cite news", and the Associated Press was given as the work (should be the author). In some cases, ESPN was given and in some cases it was ESPN.com, and in some cases they were the work while others they were the publisher. I've fixed all of the ESPN references to be consistent. Make sure that other sources are modified accordingly for consistency.
- Will do, thanks for the careful copyediting job you're doing! Staxringold talkcontribs 17:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think a little more context is needed about why the Yankees employed a 3-man rotation (e.g. no confidence in other starters, Joba's role was undefined). This was a major point of discussion during the series, and many sports writers criticized the Yankees for trying to win the World Series with a limited pitching staff. Maybe for each game, also mention how many days rest each Yankee starter was pitching on.
- I think the days rest count would be a bit of a stretch, and I can't think of a source that would directly provide it. Beyond that, the discussion of the 3 man rotation requires sources I don't know of, and selecting which ones to use. Do we name the reason as a lack of confidence in other starters, Joba's undecided role, an attempt to get maximum innings out of the Yankees best arms, what? The strategy choice of using 3 men is something you can directly point to, the why is far more ethereal and will only ever really be known in Joe Girardi's head. If he ever releases a biography and discusses why he made the choice, that's one thing, but which journalists opinions should be included in trying to decipher why? Staxringold talkcontribs 04:30, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sourcing the pitchers' rest is easy, and vital to understanding the predicament the Yankees faced in pitching their best starters on short rest - would they come back and pitch well or would they be tired and risk putting their team at a disadvantage? Each ESPN game summary says it - Game 4, Sabathia pitched on 3 days rest[69], Game 5, Burnett pitched on 3 days[70], and Game 6, Pettitte pitched on 3 days rest[71]. Here's good sources[72][73] about the criticism the Yankees received for pitching 3 starters, as well as a source for saying their 3 man rotation was a product of other unreliable starters that hadn't pitched often enough in the postseason. This source also goes into the 3-man rotation (and how Sabathia and Burnett thrived on 3-days rest), but it also goes into a few other reasons why the Phillies lost that aren't discussed (e.g. slumping hitters). There may not be definitive answers for any of these questions I'm raising, but many writers seemed to think they had the answers.
- Ok, so only the rest for within the Series itself (Games 4-6), not rest from ALCS-WS (Games 1-3)? I guess that's doable with the sources you mention. I'll try to include this stuff later today (in class right now). Staxringold talkcontribs 16:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I saw your adds. For the most part, it looks good. I think in the series preview section where you mention Gene W's criticism of Girardi and his support for Gaudin in Game 6, you should mention why he felt that way - did he believe Gaudin was a better pitcher, or did he think the rest of the starters needed to be well-rested? (this) Right now, it sounds a little oversimplified. Also, I would still mention what Gene W or a few other writers thought the reason for Girardi's 3-man rotation was. It isn't a very common strategy in a 7-game series, so the speculated reason behind it is important to understand.Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 13:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think it's worth mentioning a Philly paper printed an ad that prematurely congratulated the Phillies?
- I didn't hear this story. Was it a notable paper? I'm just trying to think where it could be included (the Aftermath section, I assume). Staxringold talkcontribs 16:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It was the Philadelphia Inquirer and it was a Macy's ad that specifically printed the congratulations[74]. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 13:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, so it's notable. Where would you put the sentence? Staxringold talkcontribs 15:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe it should go in the "Series overview" section before the game summaries? Or maybe it should go under "Aftermath" (which should probably then be renamed "Impact and aftermath"). Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Would you take a shot at adding it? I just can't figure out where to place it where it won't sound like a weird stand-alone factoid. "The Philadelphia Inquirer accidentally printed a Macys advertisement congratulating the Phillies as World Champions following Game 4 where the Yankees took a 3-1 series lead." Staxringold talkcontribs 16:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added it - I don't think it sounds too trivial the way it is, but if you can review it first, that'd be great. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 15:04, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good to me. I wish FAC let you use caps for resolved stuff like FLC. This review is already complex enough I am going to go ahead and guarantee this nom will fail due to lack of reviewers for a 2nd time even though I'm continually happy to respond immediately to comments. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:14, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll continue to add to this section as I have more to say. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Rewriting and ordering now. Moving the pertinent info from the lead to series preview and intro sections where it belongs, reformatting lead. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The rationale I used was linking each player freshly for each Game, so each summary could be read and understood independent of everything else. I will go through for some of the other linking issues, though. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That makes sense for the game summaries. It probably doesn't apply to the other areas of the article, though.Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand the rationale for linking players name in each of the game summaries, but why the aftermath section, too? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Undone. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's been a while since I've worked with a proper article and not a list, do links in the lead "count" so to speak? For example, should I not link Mariano Rivera in the Yankees season summary because he's linked in the lead? Staxringold talkcontribs 16:42, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- From my experience, links in the lead/infoboxes/templates do not count towards whether they should be linked in the body. As far as I know, everything should be linked in the body, even if linked elsewhere. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 17:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for that, and your detailed copyediting. Adding info on the pens per your edit summary right now, I'd actually meant to do that but didn't when the last FAC went stale. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand the rationale for linking players name in each of the game summaries, but why the aftermath section, too? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Quick comment – I don't want to look into this one in too much detail because of my Yankee-fan bias. However, I did find this sentence to be troublesome: "Later, the play would be called Johnny Damon's Mad Dash by various news outlets, a reference to Enos Slaughter's famous play in the 1946 World Series." There is only one reference for this statement, which says nothing about multiple outlets or the name being derived from the other play. For all we know, this could have only been used in this article; I have no way of knowing, but I don't recall any widespread use as a nickname at the time. The author doesn't sound like he's trying to create a nickname, either. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworded. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- sigh. This article is never gonna pass if nobody reviews the damn thing. Staxringold talkcontribs 13:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:48, 8 April 2010 [75].
School Rumble
I am nominating this for featured article because it has been some time and I have done my best after a PR to clean up what little remained about the article. No major info on the subject has appeared since the last FAC either.陣内Jinnai 22:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links; external links fine; alt text sufficient. Ucucha 00:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Alt text is not sufficient. The alt text for File:School Rumble- Episode 2 Clip.ogv, for instance says: "A male cyclist chases a female cyclist who chases another male cyclist as they speed past other fast-moving vehicles". I defy anyone to tell what sex those two dots in the middle and far distance are supposed to be, and I see no fast-moving vehicles in that image. The prose even in the caption needs work: "A bike chase where Harima is chasing Tenma who is chasing Karasuma at an impossible speeds eventually passing Initial D's Trueno". --Malleus Fatuorum 00:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you watched the video? All aspects of it are in fact supported. Ucucha 01:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The alt text is describing the static image on the page, not the video. I'm quite sure that if alt text is ever introduced for video clips that will be done in a similarly half-assed way as it's been done for static images. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:08, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:ALT#Videos and animations says otherwise. Ucucha 01:09, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said, half-assed. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:11, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's look at the other image, File:School Rumble Volume 13 Cover.jpg, which has this as its alt text offering: "A tough-looking young man and a cute young girl dominate the cover, in front of the text "School Rumble Vol. 13". The man wears sunglasses, goatee and short mustache with his black hair pulled back. The girl's face appears in front of and below that of the young man; she has large blue eyes and black cowlick-pigtailed hair, wears a Japanese sailor suit school uniform, and holds up one hand in a gesture of hello, with two fingers and thumb extended." Who's judging "cute" or "tough"? They both look ridiculous to me, neither cute nor tough, and the girl is not wearing one of those Japanese sailor suit school uniforms. And of course the whole thing is ludicrously far too long. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:ALT#Videos and animations says otherwise. Ucucha 01:09, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The alt text is describing the static image on the page, not the video. I'm quite sure that if alt text is ever introduced for video clips that will be done in a similarly half-assed way as it's been done for static images. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:08, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you watched the video? All aspects of it are in fact supported. Ucucha 01:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Yes, we really do need an easy how-to-do-it guide to writing alt texts. Eubulides? Are you there?
- "enigmatic"—normal English word; do we really need a dictionary link? If so, I see lots of others that would need light-blue links: damsel, amnesia, protagonists. Let's not, unless it really is rather technical or unlikely to be known by educated English-speakers.
- No hyphen after -ly adverbs. Please see MoS.
- "thereafter" is a bit old-fashioned nowadays. Just "after"?
- Who is writing "in order to"? Spot the two redundant words.
- An awkward noun plus -ing: "Kobayashi never envisaged the series being adapted into an anime". Why not: "Kobayashi never envisaged that the series would be adapted into an anime."
These are just a few points I picked out of the opening. I think it needs an independent copy-edit; but it's really not bad at all. Tony (talk) 07:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll fix the issues you raise, but please, please find the perfect copy-editor. This article has been through 3 exhaustive independent FA-quality copy-editors and numerous lesser ones, each independent of the other. Every time I bring this here, someone finds something else they don't care for or other minor issues and suggests a full copy-edit is in order, which usually makes someone else the next time not like something that the copy-edit from last time changed. I feel for the most part that the copy-edits, unless they are specific are beginning to go into circles for this article.
- I'll address the specific points raised though, especially those that are MoS problems.陣内Jinnai 08:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Yes it does seem a little too long, just improve it and eventually I will see one of my favorite anime grace the Main Page. Currently Neutral. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:11, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What do you mean by it? The article? If so, then some clearer ideas for how to condense it while keeping the information intact would be appreciated.陣内Jinnai 08:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The plot section may or may not be too detailed. Anyway, at this rate, I don't feel like this article will pass (again) but should it, I will award my reward (see the reward board for more info) to those who helped. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:28, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's 23 volumes involving a large cast of characters each with their own relationship. You can't really compress it much more without losing some key bits of understanding. Believe me, it used to be shorter and I had problems with the first FAC understanding what the series was about.陣内Jinnai 20:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment According to tools:~dispenser/cgi-bin/rdcheck.py?page=School_Rumble 13 redirects point to non-existent section "Video games". This can be fixed by fixing these redirects or creating this section or by using {{anchor}}. — Dispenser 00:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- done Created the section to fix, if you want it to redirect to other media, merge the two sections again, then, redirect one by one. Thanks. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- What the heck does this mean: "Kobayashi and—for the"?
- "involving the series' two protagonists and a classmate"... do they have names?
- Later on in the article, some statements have too many refs. I counted six after one. Please limit these to one (the one that looks most reliable) unless the point is so controversial that the word of more experts etc. is needed.
- In many cases, due to the nature of what is cited, FE CDs, the most i can do is combine those into 1 ref link. In other cases, I may have multiple statements using 1 ref. Per WP:CITE inline citations should go in most cases after punctuation. As such it is impossible to combine such references with the current widely used format into 1 link (as far as i know). I can look again and see if there are a few more i can combine, but I went through the article once already.陣内Jinnai 02:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm googling this stuff, and it's a rather complex little world in this school... how many characters? What's a guidebook? Why do we need guidebooks? The List of School Rumble characters is a great deal more informative than this article in this respect. Is that a good thing...?
- We need to mention the guidebook in order for the article to be complete, but we don't need to go into detail. As for characters, there are a lot; there are a lot more that aren't even listed on the character article. This one mentions all the main and secondary characters. It was decided some time ago with discussions on Anime and Manga Wikiproject that a seperate character section would add little per WP:MOS-AM as the series focuses on character relationships and gags which can be summed up in a plot section.陣内Jinnai 02:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "it uses the cast to break every rule of reality, but does so playing it straight" This looks a heckuva lot like an unacknowledged direct quote – alse referred to as "copyvio". Are you folks watching your p's and q's here...?• Ling.Nut 18:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It wasn't a quote, but poor paraphrasing. I just went ahead and quoted it because the statement seems quote worthy.
- The "and-for" thing also sounds confusing to me, as well as the "two protagonists and a classmate" part. See if I can fix that. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:58, 8 April 2010 [76].
Cerro Azul (Chile volcano)
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is a comprehensive, well-written, and interesting account of one of the most powerful volcanoes in the world. Cerro Azul's two greatest eruptions, the largest in South American history, were a bit difficult to find detailed information on at first. When I contacted Awickert and Ruslik0, we were able to improve the article from 4000 bytes of iffy prose to a tight article of 14 kilobytes. Their help has been invaluable, and should not go unrecognized. I'd also like to thank Malleus Fatuorum for copyediting as well as Eubulides for a quick alt text check. Note: I realize that this picture is missing copyright information; I am working on it. I am completely willing to respond to any comments, !votes, or suggestions and will try to do promptly. Thanks! ceranthor 23:07, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Ucucha 23:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment.
A dab link to precipitation.No dead external links. Alt text is fine (I made some edits). Ucucha 23:22, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Object. Like a few thousand other articles, this one has been changed from American English to British English, through the use of an overwhelmingly complex template, without understanding how to use it. I have long objected to the improper defaults to British English in {{convert}}, yet it remains that way. Every editor should need to specify the spellings to be used. The problem here is exemplified by this edit two weeks ago by User:Malleus Fatuorum changing from:
- Extended commentary on minor issue moved to talk; please advise when resolved on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gene Nygaard (talk) 01:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment "immediately south of Descabezado Grande volcano" looks wrong; "immediately south of the Descabezado Grande volcano" or "immediately south of Descabezado Grande" maybe? I might be talking out of my arse. Another problem (previously raised with Ceranthor) is that a large chunk of the "threats and preparedness" section deals with Chilean volcanoes and the SVZ, not Cerro Azul specifically. Ironholds (talk) 15:59, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "traversed as far as Brazil. Locally, after the 1932 eruption, vegetation was devastated, and the area remained "barren" until the 1990s" - any reason you can't use travelled rather than traversed? And why is "barren" in quotes? "After the 1932 eruption, the local vegetation was devastated" I'd suggest. Ironholds (talk) 16:53, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
USGS or United States Geological Survey in the notes? Pick one (I prefer the later)
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose.If alt text is to be part of the FA criteria then it should be targetted at being helpful to its audience, not just a bunch of words written-through-gritted-teeth-because-someone-is-bound-to-object-if-it's-not-there. This, for instance, "Chile hosts multiple volcanoes. Cerro Azul is the northernmost, close to the city of Santiago. Three others that are close to each other (from north to south Copahue, Llaima, and Villarrica) are further south, and Cerro Hudson is the southernmost of the five" is a mini essay on the geography of Chile, not a succinct and helpful description of the image. The others are similar, some even mentioning colour. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:56, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Blame me, I wrote that piece. Alt text for maps needs to convey the most important information sighted readers get from the image (WP:ALT#Maps), and I think this alt text does that; if you have any suggestions for improvement, I would be happy to hear them. I don't see any inappropriate mentions of color in the alt text, and took out a few places where color was inappropriately mentioned a few days ago. Ucucha 00:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The current alt-text guidelines are at best misguided and help nobody. My oppose stands. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm confused as to what you want me to change. Is it that you want the alt text to relate each image to the article, or make them more succinct, or both? ceranthor 01:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The alt text should be describing the image, not telling those who read it more than the image itself does, or interpreting the image, and should be short and sweet, one sentence at most. It's a map of Chile's major volcanoes. That's it. Anything important about the information provided by the map should already be in the article body. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:40, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- When I got to this, the alt text was "A map displaying the major Chilean volcanoes.", which was indeed short and sweet but was inappropriate on two counts. First, it repeated the caption "Major Chilean volcanoes are marked by red triangles on this map" contrary to WP:ALT#Repetition. Second, it didn't convey the gist of the map as per WP:ALT#Maps. I reworded it to "Five major volcanoes range from Cerro Azul in central Chile, south through Copahue, Llaima, and Villarrica, to Cerro Hudson." which is still short and sweet, and conveys the gist much better. Eubulides (talk) 05:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The alt text should be describing the image, not telling those who read it more than the image itself does, or interpreting the image, and should be short and sweet, one sentence at most. It's a map of Chile's major volcanoes. That's it. Anything important about the information provided by the map should already be in the article body. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:40, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm confused as to what you want me to change. Is it that you want the alt text to relate each image to the article, or make them more succinct, or both? ceranthor 01:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The current alt-text guidelines are at best misguided and help nobody. My oppose stands. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Blame me, I wrote that piece. Alt text for maps needs to convey the most important information sighted readers get from the image (WP:ALT#Maps), and I think this alt text does that; if you have any suggestions for improvement, I would be happy to hear them. I don't see any inappropriate mentions of color in the alt text, and took out a few places where color was inappropriately mentioned a few days ago. Ucucha 00:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is this any better? ceranthor 02:12, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes it is, but this is even better. How could I tell from the picture that there was a glacier? And I thought that Ucucha claimed above to have removed all references to colour? --Malleus Fatuorum 03:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All inappropriate references to color. Ucucha 03:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All references to colour are inappropriate. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Color that is an important part of the visual appearance of the image should be mentioned in alt text. Currently the only color mentioned is "black", as in "black caldera", and that use seems appropriate. Perhaps the inappropriate references to color were removed before I got here? Eubulides (talk) 05:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All references to colour are inappropriate. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All inappropriate references to color. Ucucha 03:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Alt text for maps needs to convey the most important information sighted readers get from the image," and "should be short and sweet, one sentence at most", seems like a difficult dichotomy to straddle for complex diagrams. What is the verdict on things like the tectonic/volcanic map? Awickert (talk) 08:27, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We should take the advice of authorities in the field, like the RNIB. I quote from their guidelines on alt text for what they call complex images: "Complex images are images whose full meaning cannot be adequately described in a short phrase or sentence. This may include graphs, charts and maps. A brief name or description should be given in the ALT text, and a longer description of the content of the image given elsewhere."[77] --Malleus Fatuorum 13:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes it is, but this is even better. How could I tell from the picture that there was a glacier? And I thought that Ucucha claimed above to have removed all references to colour? --Malleus Fatuorum 03:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comments
- I don't believe that the alt text should be telling me more than the image does. The alt text for the map in the infobox tells me that "Cerro Azul is located in East-central Chile, a country on the southwestern coast of South America that is approximately 4000 kilometers from North to South, but only about 175 kilometers from East to West." That is not describing the image but describing Chile. There is no scale on the map, so without looking at the alt text I have no way of knowing anything other than that Chile is long and thin on the east coast of South America.
- Cerro Azul doesn't appear to be in the same place on the two maps it's shown on, seems to have moved south on the second of them. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I'm not an expert on South American volcanoes, but I took a look through the article and it looks quite extensive. BT (talk) 01:19, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image copyright review:
- File:Cerro volcano in chile.jpg has no proper source and is almost certainly wrongly-licenced.
- File:Magmaticarcandes.jpg has questionable sourcing.
- File:Cerro hudson.jpg has no proper source.
- Others are OK; oppose pending resolution of these. Stifle (talk) 13:47, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The first one I am still sorting out. The second one is legitimate, I believe, given a review of the user's edits. I have provided the source for the third one. ceranthor 17:03, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. Looks good, but needs a bit of scrutinty for 1. Here's the lead:
- As the MoS says, try to avoid what should be triple compound items: "500-meter-(1,600 ft)-wide summit crater", made worse by the need to convert. Why not reverse? "summit crater 500 meters (1,600 ft) wide". And again, here, where the en dash makes it hard to comprehend: "creating an 8–9 square kilometer lava field". It requires "creating an 8–9-square-kilometer lava field", which is unacceptable. Try "creating a lava field of 8 to 9 square kilometers (conversion blah) in area".
- Why is "effusive" linked? The target is all about chemistry. Is this the technical meaning?
- "took place" -> "was"? Or "... erupted most recently in ..."?
- "Chile has almost 100 volcanoes," all piped. Perhaps make it neater and more focused by piping just "almost 100 volcanoes"? Tony (talk) 00:53, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I have struck my oppose above not because I think the alt text is now acceptable – which I don't – but because I don't think it's fair to single out this one article for the failings of a supposed guideline that has not been properly thought through; I very much hope that this half-baked addition to the FA criteria will be removed in short order. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I just looked through the "Threats and Preparedness" section (which I hadn't done prior to our nomination), and changed some stuff around. Just a heads-up. Awickert (talk) 08:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The article is pretty much there, I believe. I have a few things that I wanted to point out.
- Second sentence is a bit awkward. The current phrasing makes it seem like the lower slopes are capped by the summit crater? I am not familiar with volcano terminology; is that accurate?
- The third paragraph of the lead looks like it would be better served for a Volcanoes in Chile article. Perhaps that needs to be reorganized to focus on the Threats and preparedness paragraph.
- The point of that blurb is to connect the number of volcanoes in Chile to the threat from them.
- Does "Descabezado Grande" ever refer to anything other than the volcano? If not, "Descabezado Grande volcano" is probably redundant.
- Wikilink "caldera complexes" and "Holocene"?
- "500 meters (1,640 ft) deep struts" – meters should probably be singular,
- The tense in "First documented activity, 1846" needs to be made consistent. Right now, it is a mixture of past, present perfect, and present tenses.
- I think I fixed this.
- The second sentence still has both past and present tenses. In addition, the fourth sentence feels a little awkward now.
- The third sentence of "Early twentieth century" has some passive voice that doesn't need to be there.
- Wikilink "plume"?
- To the uninformed, the second sentence of "Major eruption, 1932" seems a like a non sequitor. How does a sentence about the frequency of the volcano's :activity flow from a clause about the the lack of large Plinian eruptions?
- Standardize your AMs and PMs.
- Choose either imperial or scientific notation and stick to it. Sometimes you have miles (km) and other times you have kilometers (mi).
- I don't think there are any mi to kilometer converts in the article.
- Second to last sentence of "Major eruption, 1932".
- The Mount Hudson picture, if one does not look at the caption, makes the reader think that that is a picture of Cerro Azul. I think it ought to be removed.
- I modified the caption to clarify that it wasn't Cerro Azul. The reason I included it was because it was accessible and because Hudson is the best known of the Chilean volcanoes, IIRC.
- Even so, it seems a bit misleading for someone who is only skimming the article. But it is your call.
- I don't really understand the part about the VDAP. If their goal is to help out with relief efforts, why are they outfitted with equipment to monitor :volcanoes?
- Should be clarified.
- As a matter of fact, that entire section seems an amalgamation of things that have happened in the Andes in general and things that have happened in the craters of Cerro Azul. Perhaps it could be refocused?
- How so?
- Well, looking back on it, I'm not terribly sure why I made that comment. I suppose it isn't terribly important in any case.
- Why was the González-Ferrán source not used?
- I have not been able to find it anywhere. I considered it, but then we were able to find excellent information from the Hildreth and Stern papers.
- If these could be fixed, I would probably be willing to support. NW (Talk) 22:13, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Except for the ones I've responded to, these are fixed.
- Comments
- Is "Azul" an accepted abbreviation for the volcano? Seems a bit odd to me.
- Azul has produced the largest eruptions ever in South America - Seems pretty awkward and leaves much to be desired. "Azul is responsible for South America's largest recorded eruptions"?
- In 1846, an [[Effusive eruption|effusive]] eruption formed the vent... - Why pipe the link?
- In 1932, 9.5 cubic kilometers (2.3 cu mi) of dacitic tephra erupted... - Sure, it's linked, but seriously...
- The last paragraph of the lead is taken out of context, and probably doesn't belong in the lead at all. I'd be much happier with some more info on the geology of this particular volcano.
–Juliancolton | Talk 02:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the useful comments.
- "Azul": I agree; I made all of them use the full name.
- Phrase replaced with your suggestion.
- The link is piped because "effusive" redirects to effusion, which isn't what we're talking about
- Well, I mean why is [[Effusive eruption|effusive]] eruption instead of [[effusive eruption]] used? –Juliancolton | Talk 05:08, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In 1932, 9.5 cubic kilometers (2.3 cu mi) of dacitic tephra erupted...: what is wrong with "dacitic tephra"? I imagine that it is because it is technical language: "dacitic" is composition, "tephra" is morphology. We could say "ash" if the consensus is that a less-technical more-generic term in the lede is better.
- I think that would be better. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:08, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that I agree with you on the last paragraph of the lede being out of place. Geology could be done, but ASAP for me (at least) is the weekend.
- Awickert (talk) 04:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comments - As I noted above, the lead needs work, but since that will be taken care of in time...
- Volcanoes in Chile (including Cerro Azul) occur in the Central (CVZ), South (SVZ), and Austral Volcanic Zones (AVZ). - Why do we need the first parenthetical bit?
- The South Volcanic Zone, of which Cerro Azul is a part, runs through central and western Chile and extends south to Argentina. - Really clunky.
- ...that erupted in at least 12 volcanic episodes during the Quaternary period—the upper lava layers are dated at 340,000 years.[9][10] - Why a dash instead of a new sentence?
- with the majority of its eruptions in recorded history originating - See User:Tony1/Noun plus -ing.
- At between 3,080 and 3,230 meters (10,100 and 10,600 ft) elevation - Didn't you just say it was 10,801 ft?
- Cerro Azul is situated in the Mediterranean climate zone. It is characterized by hot and dry summers, but mild and wet winters. - No need for two sentences.
- Annual precipitation is up to 800 mm. - Needs a conversion into inches.
- Above 1600 m the slopes of mountains... - Same as above.
–Juliancolton | Talk 20:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Between the bunch of us, looks like these are taken care of. Thanks for your careful reading. (The elevation issue was due to two different sources; I decided to keep the Global Volcanism Program one, as the other paper talked a little too much about variability in the height for an article like this; the peak seems to be better.) Awickert (talk) 01:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Commentsby Ruhrfisch. As requested, I have read the article and am making some copyedits.I also have some questions / comments that I will raise here. Looks generally good and I am leaning support once my comments have been addressed. Would it make sense to give the elevation of the summit in the lead? This volcano is a kind of mountain, and it seems odd to have an article on a mountain without the height in the lead. If there is some WikiProject Volcano guideline against this, I will defer to that.- But the height is in the infobox? Ruslik_Zero 15:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I looked at the Geography FAs with "mount" in the title and Loihi Seamount, Mount Rushmore, Mount St. Helens, and Mount Tambora all mention elevation in the lead somehow. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- But the height is in the infobox? Ruslik_Zero 15:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quizapu seems to be an alternative name for the volcano - two of the references use "Volcan Quizapu" in their titles. Should Quizapu be listed as an alternate name in the lead?Organization - this goes from Chile to South America then back to Chile. In general, going from more general to more specific topics flows better. Is there a reason not start this with South America, then go to Chile? Volcanic activity in Chile varies widely, and includes explosive eruptions and both subaerial and submarine basalt flows. Volcanism in the Andes is caused by subduction of the Nazca and Antarctic tectonic plates under the South American Plate. Volcanoes in Chile occur in the Central (CVZ), South (SVZ), and Austral Volcanic Zones (AVZ).Would it help to link subduction?This sentence is not clear to me Nearly 100 Quaternary (Pleistocene- or Holocene-age) volcanoes exist in the country, as well as 60 complexes and caldera systems.[3] Does the nearly 100 figure include the 60 complexes and caldera systems, or are there nearly 160 total volcanoes and complexes and calderas? Seems like the latter, but I was not sure.In the Local setting section, I think it would help to add that Quizapu crater is part of Cerro Azul Its largest historical eruption was at Quizapu crater, and its most active volcanoes are Llaima and Villarrica.[7] I know Quizapu is mentioned twice in the lead, but this is the first it is mentioned in the body of the article, so adding it is part of Cerro Azul here might help.Needs to be converted to cubic miles too The cone of Cerro Azul has a total volume of about 11 km3, and is a young feature, formed in the Holocene.[10] and this needs to be spelled out (meters) and needs conversion for feet too The summit of Cerro Azul is crowned by an asymmetric crater about 500 m in diameter.[10]
OK, I am stopping for now, more soon. Please revert or fix my copyedits if they have introduced errors. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC) More comments from Ruhrfisch[reply]
- Would it be possible to translate the Spanish names into English? So for example, Cerro del Medio or Volcan Nuevo or Caracol, Crater los Quillayes, Crater la Resolana, and Crater sin Nombre (the last just means "Crater without a name" so is that really an official name?)
- Cerro Azul was at least translated. Ruslik_Zero 18:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- My Spanish is very fragmentary, I think this would be helpful if it is possible. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I translated those that could be translated. Ironically, from what I understand, "Crater sin Nombre" is the name of the crater. At least this is what the USGS has. Quillayes and Resolana are probably some local proper nouns that do not translate, so I haven't provided translations for those. Awickert (talk) 05:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- My Spanish is very fragmentary, I think this would be helpful if it is possible. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cerro Azul was at least translated. Ruslik_Zero 18:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not very fond of using "~" in The radius of the crater floor, which is the current inner vent, is ~150 meters (500 ft), ... - could you use about or approximately or some other word(s) instead of "~"?It is unclear what the "It" in this sentence is refering to - the crater floor? the crater rim? Perhaps even the wall of the crater? It is cut by two long, dacitic lava flows which are probably the remnants of a dome or an eruption.[13]Temperatures need to be converted to Fahrenheit too In the Andes the annual average maximum temperatures lie in the range of 20–25 °C, while minimum temperatures are below 0 °C.Problem sentence Above 1600 m (5249 ft) the slopes of mountains are covered by Alpine like steppe, while below there are zones of Nothofagus forest, Hygrophilous forest, Sclerophylous forest and matorral. 1) Both Hygrophilous forest and Sclerophylous forest link to Mediterranean forests, woodlands, and scrub but there is no mention of Hygrophilus forest in that article. 2) Does the sentence follow WP:ITALIC - Nothofagus (Latin) is italicized but matorral (Spanish) is not.Unclear that we have read specifically about "the two herdsmen" - could the first "the" be removed? That night, the two herdsmen near the site heard a continuous roar punctuated by loud bangs...I would avoid the use of today in Today, the field is twice that size.[19] the ref is from 1992, would "As of 1992, the field was twice that size.[19]"Would this Beginning in 1907, though with a possible precursor explosive event in 1903, Cerro Azul once again erupted. be clearer as something like After a possible precursor explosive event in 1903, Cerro Azul once again [definitely?] erupted in 1907.It seems odd that the History section ends with 1932. There is a brief mention of the 1967 eruption as the last one, but were there any eruptions between 1932 and 1967? What happened in 1967? What type of eruption was it? How long did it last?I agree with the above comment that the Threats and preparedness section seems not to be very foucsed on Cerro Azul. I will think about ways to try and make it more focused.- The article seems to be a bit overlinked in places - phreatic eruption, tephra, dacite - my rule of thumb is to link terms once in the lead, once more at first use in the article body, and in tables or captions if needed.
- I am done with comments for now. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I tried tweaking the first paragraph of the Threats and preparedness section to focus a bit more on Cerro Azul. I think the second paragraph could also be more focused if the current first sentence Every known type of eruption (Hawaiian, Strombolian, Plinian, Subplinian, phreatomagmatic, and Vulcanian) has occurred at some point in the range. were followed by something about the types of eruption known to have occurred at Cerro Azul. I was asked to come here and comment on this FAC by one of the three nominators - it is a bit disconcerting to have no repsonse(s) to my review comments in over 24 hours. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 11:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have changed my comments to support above. I would still prefer to see more translation of Spanish names and something done about overlinking, but it is close enough to support now. Thanks for an interesting article! Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Ruhrfisch! Thanks for the help. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner; it's been a crazy week for me. I just did the translations, dealt with as many overlinks as I could readily find, and added in the Cerro Azul specific eruptions (thanks for that suggestion). Awickert (talk) 05:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have changed my comments to support above. I would still prefer to see more translation of Spanish names and something done about overlinking, but it is close enough to support now. Thanks for an interesting article! Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I tried tweaking the first paragraph of the Threats and preparedness section to focus a bit more on Cerro Azul. I think the second paragraph could also be more focused if the current first sentence Every known type of eruption (Hawaiian, Strombolian, Plinian, Subplinian, phreatomagmatic, and Vulcanian) has occurred at some point in the range. were followed by something about the types of eruption known to have occurred at Cerro Azul. I was asked to come here and comment on this FAC by one of the three nominators - it is a bit disconcerting to have no repsonse(s) to my review comments in over 24 hours. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 11:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The length of this comment might make it seem like I've done a half-cocked review, but I've read this a few times over the last couple of days. Most of what I would have complained about before seems to be resolved. Prose is fine; the sources I was able to check online pass verification. I noticed the unstruck image concern above; from what I can see, it's now properly sourced. Nothing really to complain about! Nice work, Steve T • C 11:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 11:33, 9 April 2010 [78].
Battle of Taejon
I am nominating this for featured article because it has passed a MilHist A-Class Review, and I believe it can become Featured as well. —Ed!(talk) 20:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. No dab links. No external links. Alt text fine; I made a few edits. Ucucha 23:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Charles Edward
- References needed
- "Advance elements of the 24th Infantry Division were badly defeated in the Battle of Osan on July 5, during the first battle between American and North Korean forces"
- "The three regiments were below strength due to heavy losses; after the previous two weeks of fighting, the 21st Infantry had 1,100 men left, having suffered 1,433 casualties thus far in the conflict. "
- "The 34th Infantry had only 2,020 and the 19th had 2,276, placing the division's total strength at 11,400. "
- "B Battery was attacked by 400 North Koreans, but an advance of South Korean horse cavalry spared the battery heavy losses, allowing it to make an organized retreat."
- "It was put under the command of Major General John H. Church in the absence of Dean. After three weeks of fighting, the division had suffered almost 30 percent casualties, with 2,400 men missing."
- "Although the force was badly defeated militarily, the 24th Infantry Division accomplished its mission of delaying North Korean forces from advancing until July 20" - needs ref, but if that was the goal of the 24th, you should probably mention that up front.
- Prose
- "The 24th Infantry Division was also suffering..." - unneeded "also"
- "The division also had no tanks to defend with..." - unneeded "also"
- "The North Korean 2nd Infantry Division was ordered to attack from Chongju against the American right flank, but it was slow to move and was too late to participate in the battle. Instead, the North Korean 3rd Division was ordered to attack from the north, against the flank. The North Korean 4th Division would attack across the Kum River from the east and south, in order to envelop Taejon and the US 24th Infantry Division with it.[9] Eventually they would also be supported by elements of the North Korean 105th Armored Division.[10]" - This paragraph is a little tricky. You need to make it clear you are talking about the battle plan by noting that.
- "At 0300 on July 16" - this will be somewhat confusing to reader unfamiliar with military time. I suggest converting such instances to standard time formatting.
- I tried to do that to prevent confusion in the article, my other FA used military time without a problem.
- "Regardless, the 34th Infantry Division soldiers had repeatedly attempted to hold lines of ground, but were repeatedly overwhelmed by numerically superior North Korean forces" - suggest change the second "repeatedly" to "consistently" or "continually".
- General
- Throughout the article it is not really clear what the strategic point of the battle was. I suggest adding that to the background section. Why were the Americans trying to hold that position? Why were the Koreans trying to capture it? There is alot of detail about the actions of the battle, but this aspect is missing.
- "North Korean forces continued to infiltrate the city disguised as farmers and the remaining elements of the 24th Infantry Division were pushed back block-by-block." - that is a little vague. Where they sneaking in disguised to spy on them, or carry out suicide attacks, or just what? Being pushed back block by block sounds like a military engagement between units.
- Images
- File:19th Kum River Map.JPG is on the left hand side under a level three heading. WP:IMAGE does not permit this. Move it down a paragraph, or put it on the right.
- File:Korean front 071350.JPG - it is not clear that this is public domain. The source listed on the image page is not a government website, and where it links, it is not clear to me anyway that the image was originally taken by the US government.
- File:34th Kum River Map.JPG - same as last image
- File:19th Kum River Map.JPG - same as last image
- File:General Dean's Kill!.jpg - the date of this image is listed as "20 July, 1950 (Probably not, some times later)" - what does that mean?
- File:William F. Dean.jpg - the source listed is a dead link. That needs fixed
Overall a very good article. Those issues are relatively minor. Address them and I will be glad to support! :) Good job! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 17:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I have responded to all of your suggestions. —Ed!(talk) 04:19, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support this very worthy article. Great work! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments:
- images are all appropriately licensed, no dab links, alt text present (no action required);
are there any Korean sources that might be able shed some light on casualties? Jim101 might be able to help, have you talked to him about it? — AustralianRupert (talk) 23:52, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I've been working closely with Jim101 working on a lot of Korean War topics, and his sources don't mention anything about exact numbers just as mine don't. There was a lot of confusion at this phase in the war because of a lack of communications equipment and high casualties on the American side, so most sources I have a hold of say the North Korean casualties "can't be estimated." —Ed!(talk) 02:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, no worries then. Thanks for clarifying that. — AustralianRupert (talk) 13:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been working closely with Jim101 working on a lot of Korean War topics, and his sources don't mention anything about exact numbers just as mine don't. There was a lot of confusion at this phase in the war because of a lack of communications equipment and high casualties on the American side, so most sources I have a hold of say the North Korean casualties "can't be estimated." —Ed!(talk) 02:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the Background section, this sentence seems to be missing something: "Losses in earlier fighting reduced artillery two battalions." (I think it is missing the word "to");In the Background section, I think "Far east" is incorrectly capitalised. I think it should be "Far East" as both words are part of the noun, which is in this case a proper noun (I suggest just piping it to the correct capitalisation);In the Background section, I think "combat ready" should be hyphenated as "combat-ready";In the Background section, this sentence is missing something: "Taejon was major South Korean city 100 miles (160 km) south" (I think it is missing the word "a", as in a major South Korean city);In the Second North Korean attack section, I think "regiments" should be capitalised as "Regiments" in this sentence: "The division's 19th and 34th regiments";In the Taejon falls section, "North Korean 105th Armored Division" is overlinked (it is already linked above in the First North Korean attack section).
— AustralianRupert (talk) 13:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support The article looks very complete to me, and it is well illustrated. Shockfront (talk) 18:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: all my comments have been addressed. Cheers. — AustralianRupert (talk) 22:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- "the 24th Infantry Division of the Eighth United States Army, headquartered in Japan, was the closest combat-ready division' I wasn't really combat ready at all.
- 'Originally below strength on their deployment, heavy losses in the preceding two weeks had reduced their numbers further. The 21st Infantry had 1,100 men left, having suffered 1,433 casualties." You don't say what the establishment strength of the regiments and the division was, leaving the reader unable to determine how under strength it was.
- "The division had no tanks: Its new M26 Pershing and older M4A3 Sherman tanks were still en route." Its -> its
- A-Battery -> A Battery and B-battery -> B Battery Hyphens are not normal here.
- "and suffered 650 casualties of the 3,401 men committed there" of -> among
- "the Eighth Army Commander, General Walton Walker" walker was only a lieutenant general at the time
- "After three weeks of fighting, the Division had suffered almost 30 percent casualties, with 2,400 men missing." So there were 922 men killed and 228 wounded and about 2,400 missing?
- "The Division went on reserve status while it rested and rebuilt," on reserve status -> into reserve
- 'the first unit of the division back into action, the 19th Infantry Regiment, did not move to the front lines of the Pusan Perimeter until August 1" That was just over a week - not very long at all.
- What type of guns was the 63rd Field Artillery Battalion equipped with?
Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: all my concerns have been addressed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- "The first two Medals of Honor for the Korean War " should be mentioned in the lede.
- The 3.5-inch bazookas were newly-made and newly-arrived; the unit had very few. Dean found only two, separately: one, which had only one round, and later a second, which was better-equipped. The account in Fehrenbach pp. 98-9 is quite riveting.
- I'm not sure the first para of the Aftermath section captures the plight of the 24th fully, see Fehrenbach p. 101, "After seventeen days"... • Ling.Nut 06:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Currently Leaning Oppose, though I could be persuaded that I am wrong. I am late to the party here, and have only read several passages of Fehrenbach (see comments above). Fehrenbach makes very, very little of the numerical difference between the forces, explicitly saying on p. 88, "The 24th was on the brink of disaster, and not because of the enemy's numbers." The problem was that the American forces were distressingly under-equipped (especially in communications, but also in every other way, apparently) and the command situation was also woeful. The losses among commanders were high to begin with, and mounted as time went on. Those left in command were under-trained (and again, under-equipped, it seems due to budget cuts) to do so... It also seems that every regiment had only two battalions (I only see this mentioned with respect to one regiment in the article, but I could be wrong), and no one had been trained to operate under these conditions... essentially, the US military screwed up, and screwed up badly. All of these facts are kinda mentioned in the article, but I'm not sure that they are presented clearly or strongly enough. The Wikipedia article really seems to me to read as though it was all a case of numerical inferiority...In short, I don't think the cause(s) of the American tactical defeats were explored clearly enough... .while I'm at it, the strategic and tactical importance of Taejon (Fehrenbach p. 88) does not seem well-presented here (though it is true that the main strategic outcome, delaying the North Koreans until a Pusan perimeter could be completed, was presented very clearly). I'm open to the possibility that all of the above is Fehrenbach's POV; am looking forward to exploring other sources. • Ling.Nut 07:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Just a caution that it may not be wise to use one source's opinion to hold against this article. According to the current leading Korean War expert Prof. Allan R. Millett, Fehrenbach's book belongs to a genre of books that only examine the American military weakness during the Korean War, and according to the principle of aging source, Fehrenbach's book, which is published in the 1960s, is superseded by newer works such as by Bevin Alexander in the 1980s and David Halberstam in 2007. If you are looking for a complete combat analysis of the battle, Fehrenbach's scope is not as comprehensive as the works of Colonel Roy Appleman of the US Army. Jim101 (talk) 21:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for helping me with that! Now, can you tell me two things: 1) why did we get our butts kicked, and 2) where is this summarized in the lede and clearly explained (or at least fully addressed) in the article? I'm also wondering where you got 20,000 troops in the infobpx, but that is less important.Tks • Ling.Nut 01:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 1) I've tried to emphasize in the article how little the importance of the tactical defeat was. The American forces never really were planning or expecting to win at Taejon - the goal was to delay the North Koreans as much as possible. I've expanded the background section and lead to include a little more about the lack of equipment and training by American forces but as Jim said, other sources corroborate the story that it wasn't equipment alone that lost the fight. American forces were also untrained, undisciplined, outnumbered and defending a city that could be attacked from three sides at once, but they didn't "lose" the fight per se, their mission was a delaying action and they were able to hold the area as long as their commanders had originally ordered them to. As for the infobox, I amended it to be more specific to Fehrenbach's troop estimate (two divisions of 11,000 each operating at 60 to 80 percent strength) but neither he nor any other source estimates more numbers for the large contingent of forces from a third division (the 105th Armored) present at the fight. —Ed!(talk) 18:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for helping me with that! Now, can you tell me two things: 1) why did we get our butts kicked, and 2) where is this summarized in the lede and clearly explained (or at least fully addressed) in the article? I'm also wondering where you got 20,000 troops in the infobpx, but that is less important.Tks • Ling.Nut 01:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In response to the deep Army cuts ordered by President Truman, the Army suspended the draft. It decided to keep the same number of divisions active (seven infantry, two airborne and one armoured) but to reduce their subunits and non-divisional components. There was no Army-wide method of doing this, but in MacArthur's Far East Command (FEC) all four divisions inactivated the third battalions and tank companies of their infantry regiments, the third battery of their field artillery battalions, two companies in each tank battalion, and two batteries in the antiaircraft battalions. There was one exception: the 24th Infantry, being made up of buffalo soldiers, was kept at three battalions due to the Army's racial segregation policy. It was planned to inactivate one of the four divisions in 1950. Elsewhere, the division in Germany and the 2nd and 3rd Infantry and 2nd Armored Divisions in ZI were maintained with their full organisation but with all components at reduced strength. The 11th Airborne Division had only two regiments. The 82nd Airborne Division was the only division in the Army at full strength. Because they were manned by volunteers, and they were at full strength, the remaining battalions in FEC were well-trained. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there a source location for that? Every source, US government and scholarly alike, corroborates that the 24th had undergone reductions by the time the Korean War broke out. In fact, the 7th Infantry Division lost most of its compliment to reinforce the other three divisions moving into Korea at this time. —Ed!(talk) 01:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. I made two wikilinks to add some depth to the whole issue of being under-equipped because of cutbacks. If the article were stand-alone I'd want refs/cites, but this is Wikipedia, and I'm OK with just links in a background section. So now, why were they so under-trained? Were they raw recruits or... what? PLUS I see the point above about the whole action being just a delaying action, but Dean had to order airstrikes on his own equipment more than once. Surely that isn't standard procedure (to say the least). So... they were getting their butts kicked... Hate to do this, but is there any ref that says the top brass knew they were ending lambs to the slaughter? Fehrenbach (I know, outdated) seems to attribute it to a mild form of arrogance or tunnel-vision. • Ling.Nut 04:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a sentence to the background that more directly states that (cited by ref 2). I only have one source saying directly that the men of the 24th were sacrificial lambs, is it then inferred to be true? Also, I added more to explain that indeed most of the US soldiers were raw recruits. —Ed!(talk) 05:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We can't infer anything, Ed. We must be extremely diligent about keeping the article text that we add strictly within the scope of statements licensed by reliable sources. Controversial statements can't be accepted (or rejected) based on the word of a single source. My "lambs to the slaughter" comment was just for the sake of this discussion... In other words, in the case of a controversial statement, if e make it at all we need to find the three or four or so most reliable sources available, and try to distill their input onto the page, very carefully citing it. But back all this up. What do the best available sources actually say about all this?• Ling.Nut 05:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See above, and please note that I went to page 52 of Alexander's "The first war we lost" and it does not say what you have it saying in note 2a: "However the division would be trading land and casualties for time during the next few battles." I suppose it implies this, but it certainly does not imply it strongly enough to warrant a cite to this page of this book. This, unfortunately, is a problem. Are there more problems of a similar nature? • Ling.Nut 08:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a sentence to the background that more directly states that (cited by ref 2). I only have one source saying directly that the men of the 24th were sacrificial lambs, is it then inferred to be true? Also, I added more to explain that indeed most of the US soldiers were raw recruits. —Ed!(talk) 05:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. I made two wikilinks to add some depth to the whole issue of being under-equipped because of cutbacks. If the article were stand-alone I'd want refs/cites, but this is Wikipedia, and I'm OK with just links in a background section. So now, why were they so under-trained? Were they raw recruits or... what? PLUS I see the point above about the whole action being just a delaying action, but Dean had to order airstrikes on his own equipment more than once. Surely that isn't standard procedure (to say the least). So... they were getting their butts kicked... Hate to do this, but is there any ref that says the top brass knew they were ending lambs to the slaughter? Fehrenbach (I know, outdated) seems to attribute it to a mild form of arrogance or tunnel-vision. • Ling.Nut 04:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that I have removed the "Currently Leaning" from my Oppose. I just don't think this article does an excellent job of communicating the battle of Taejon to our readers. Although I think you can be proud of how far you have taken it so far, I think it needs more work. For example, this map is pretty much incomprehensible. An incomprehensible map is merely a decoration. (Someone like User:Sémhur could help...there's a far better map on p. 95 of Alexander). I'm not sure the under-equipped nature of the units are explained well (though of course the fact is presented), I'm not sure the geographic aspect(s) of the battle(s) are explained well, etc.• Ling.Nut 09:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Absolutely every word I have said is completely actionable. Fix the maps. Rewrite to reflect your sources and explain the situation. Your response puzzles me. I'm sorry to +O, but I think it's just not ready. • Ling.Nut 15:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there something specific about the map that is confusing? It honestly makes sense to me. As for "the situation," I am trying very hard to change every specific thing you are mentioning but if I am not doing so correctly please let me know exactly what graphs are not correct. The problem is I don't see what specific details are missing that aren't given plenty of context in this article and its links. —Ed!(talk) 16:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A Compromise: Just my idea on how to address those concerns. Working with Prof. Millett's recommendations, just using sources which are aimed to criticize the armed forces, such as books by Fehrenbach and Alexander, may lend undue weights to certain details. I suggest use the established combat analysis, such as the book South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu and Policy and Direction - The First Year to measure just how important the cutbacks were to this battle or whether the US got its ass "kicked or not". As for confusing maps, I suggest a new section in the article just on describing the locations like this example here. Now this section could be the hardest section to find footnotes for, but in my experience it can go a long way on resolving confusions. Jim101 (talk) 23:03, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm OK with using sources that are less critical; I just think the whole issue has to be explored in-depth. I didn't walk away from the article thinking, "Oh, I learned about the combat-readiness of the equipment and men in the Battle of Taejon." As for the maps....the legend is seriously too tiny to read. If I have to spend 5 minutes leaning forward and squinting, the map is useless... The first line looks like... 5somethingsomething positioned somethingsomething night june something. Other lines no better. There is no easy way to distinguish between NK, SK & US forces — colors would be nice, and the units should be visually distinct. They all look like little envelopes. What's that... boat-looking thing.. moving away from the lowest envelope, near the lower left corner of the map? Nothing is labeled! I also didn't get a sense that I could match the text up with the map — more help in this respect would be nice. Etc. • Ling.Nut 23:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have substantially expanded the article, specifically with more detail about the state of the forces involved for both sides, in the "Forces involved" section. Much of the article, including the aftermath, has been expanded with additional information on the battle and the loss for American forces. Is this satisfactory? As for the maps, I am taking them off of the article while I attempt to create clearer maps. —Ed!(talk) 03:40, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there something specific about the map that is confusing? It honestly makes sense to me. As for "the situation," I am trying very hard to change every specific thing you are mentioning but if I am not doing so correctly please let me know exactly what graphs are not correct. The problem is I don't see what specific details are missing that aren't given plenty of context in this article and its links. —Ed!(talk) 16:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Your zeal is commendable. I left a query re the image here. I'll look at the article text later... • Ling.Nut 07:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:58, 8 April 2010 [79].
Parks and Recreation (season 1)
This is my second FA nom for this article. It has already long been listed as a GA and gone through a peer review, but the first FAC failed largely because the prose needed work. It's since gone through a second peer review and some further copy editing by myself. I believe it's now ready for FA, and if there are any other prose issues that have been missed, I'm confident they can be addressed here at the FAC review level. Thank you! (Please note, this is a WP:WikiCup nomination) — Hunter Kahn 17:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Image Check: Passed - 2 images. 1 Fair use, 1 free. File:Parks and recreation season 1 dvd cover.jpg could probably be replaced with a version that's not a picture of the actual physical box, but... whatever. Free picture is on Commons with everything attached. --PresN 17:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Sources look good,
except for officetally.com, which I noticed was called out last time as well. I'd not accept that as a reliable source unless you can show a couple reliable sources that refer to it as important or reliable. --Andy Walsh (talk) 03:14, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: Much improved since previous nomination. Can't find any substantial issues. A small style discrepancy: "p.m." in lede and Ratings; "P.M." in Filming.—DCGeist (talk) 20:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support from Ruhrfisch. I peer reviewed this recently and thought it was in pretty good shape then. As requested, I have read it again now and find it meets the FAC criteria. I have a few nitpicks which do not distract from my support.
- It is unclear who is meant by "she" here. When she resists the idea, Leslie's mother suggests blackmailing the official with information about her husband's drinking problem. From the peer review I am pretty sure she is the official (the sentence has been tweaked since then). Perhaps something like Leslie's mother suggests blackmailing the official, who is resisting the the idea, with information about her [the official's?] husband's drinking problem.
- Would it make sense to add in the lead that the last episode, while the lowest in the ratings, also was the best reviewed?
Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quick-fail.
- I know some people are keen on the extra comma, but it goes bump-bump here: "between April 9, 2009, and May 14, 2009."
- Dropped. — Hunter Kahn 13:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Aw, no. Tony, Toni, Toné, your über-sensitive ear has heard a bump-bump where there ain't none. That "extra comma" is just proper U.S. English style—the style in which this entire Ameri-topicked article is appropriately written. Eliminating that comma leaves us with a style that's inconsistent, favored nowhere, and just plain ugly, ugli, uglē. Please put back that comma, Master Kahn.—DCGeist (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dropped. — Hunter Kahn 13:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Spot the redundant word: "Like that show, Parks and Recreation also strongly encouraged ...".
- I'd put a comma after "households": do you agree?
- "Despite the low rating, "Rock Show" received the best reviews of the season, with some commentators declaring the series had finally found the right tone." Instead of the "with plus noun plus -ing", which even the Chicago MoS deprecates as usually awkward, why not ", which convinced some commentators that the series had ..."?
- Why are "Australia" and "United States" linked in the infobox. Do we have to have a flag-waving competition? Why not leave the main image to itself without pretty little icons below it?
- The flag thing was because it was a {{United States}} template. I've dropped it, as well as the Australia wikilink.
- Link to "improvisation": it's a common term and a pretty crappy article, I must say; there's a citation tag at the top, too.
- Narrative descriptions: OMG, we're dealing with crap here too. It's hard to make a case that even a good article on this kind of subject is "among our best work", as required. I find some of the language informal and presumptuous: "love interest", "greenlight the park project", "after cashing in the favor". There's my favourite "In order to ..." (two redundant words, and it recurs, dear dear). "Leslie and the pit beautification committee go door-to-door"; run that past me again? "do a story", "staying on message", "gets jealous". Now the "pit beautification committee" is "the pit subcommittee" (are they the same?). I don't mean to offend: this has been a good exercise for the authors. But really, such a topic needs to be highly professional in its writing, tone and content to get a star from WP. Tony (talk) 07:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Mmmmmm, NO. Much love to my passionate antipodean brother, the undisputed Master of the MOS, but the narrative descriptions are far from "crap." A considered comparison of these descriptions to those in other TV-related Wikipedia Featured Articles and professional publications as varied as TV Guide and the encyclopedic Complete Directory to Prime Time Network and Cable TV Shows (8th edition, Random House, 2003) demonstrates that they satisfy our criteria. The phrases that Tony calls out are absolutely in line with the phrases that actual professional writers employ to summarize the plots of television shows. Tony's perturbation is understandable: never in the history of (wo)man has there been a general-interest encyclopedia that treated equally in-depth subjects as important as Earth () and unimportant as Parks and Recreation (season 1). But that's what we are responsible for here, and this article indeed does meet the standard we have set. If anyone doubts it, please read the real-life professional writing that is analogous. I believe you will find that what I have said is true.—DCGeist (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (I've made changes based on the comments you made in the above paragraph as well.) Look, I don't mean to offend either, but this isn't the first time I've had people show up nearly a month into the FAC progress, point out a few grammatical nit-picks, slam a quick-fail vote and leave without follow-up comment. This article has had barely any feedback for weeks, and then suddenly a quick-fail vote at the 11th hour. It would be so much more helpful if you would get involved early in the FAC process and helped me improve the article, rather than swooping and leaving some general comments at the end when I likely won't have enough time to do anything. Are these issues really so insurmountable that they cannot be addressed through the FAC process itself? I've gone through FACs that involved very thorough copy edits that resulted in strong improvements to the prose. But both here and in the last FAC, I've had people claim the prose needs work, and leave it pretty much at that. So the FAC fails as a result and I'm left with very little constructive criticism to work with, other than that it needs a review by a thorough an independent editor. So I sought a second peer review, incorporated the changes, made another pass myself and brought it back here. Now, if it fails again, I'll have even less to work on except that the prose is still lacking. Should I bring it to peer review for yet a third time? (Additionally, when you say "It's hard to make a case that even a good article on this kind of subject is among our best work", are you saying you have a problem with the subject matter itself?) — Hunter Kahn 13:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry to vent, but I'm sure you can understand my frustration. If you can spare the time and effort, I'd really appreciate it if you could take another look and help me address these issues. Otherwise, the article's just going to keep going in circles, and who knows how many times it will come back to FAC like this... — Hunter Kahn 13:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Since the above author hasn't responded, and since I've responded to all actionable objections, and since all other comments have been supportive, I just ask that the closing nominator at least consider passing it in spite of his vote, or at least that other people reading this still consider weighing in themselves... — Hunter Kahn 14:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I support Master Kahn's plea, per my observation above. If we actually make the effort to compare his work—particularly after his recent revisions—to the verifiable professional analogues, it is clear that this article is on par with the sort of content for which people pay cash money.—DCGeist (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Since the above author hasn't responded, and since I've responded to all actionable objections, and since all other comments have been supportive, I just ask that the closing nominator at least consider passing it in spite of his vote, or at least that other people reading this still consider weighing in themselves... — Hunter Kahn 14:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: Clear improvements in prose since previous FAC, and outstanding coverage on a topic merely a year old! The Flash I am Jack's complete lack of surprise 00:56, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "... portrayed the protagonist ... " twists my tongue-- could be just me. I see what looks like overciting in several places, sample: The idea was partially inspired by the portrayal of local politics on the HBO drama series The Wire, as well as a renewed interest and theme of optimism about politics stemming from the 2008 United States presidential election.[25][26][34][35] What does "the series was paneled" mean? Why is California linked-- is there anyone who doesn't know what that is? Look at the repetitive and confusing prose here: The character traits of Ron Swanson, a government official who believes in as little government as possible, was inspired by a real-life Libertarian elected official Schur encountered in Burbank who favored as little government interference as possible and admitted, "I don't really believe in the mission of my job." More work needed: these are only samples, please have others go through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've tried to respond to your specific comments
(except the California wikilink, because I can't find California wikilinked anywhere except in the Claremont, California link, which leads to the town, not the state). If the article fails, I'll indeed seek another review from an independent editor, although I should point out this has already been done twice for the article and apparently hasn't been sufficient... — Hunter Kahn 10:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I eliminated the California wikilink, as well as some other instances of overlinking per Sandy's observation.—DCGeist (talk) 10:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sandy also observed a general problem with overcitation. I went through the entire article, spending time with the actual sources, and reduced all the stacks of three or more note callouts to a maximum of two by focusing in each case on the most relevant citations.—DCGeist (talk) 21:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I see you've (both) tried to respond to Sandy's specific comments, but in that one example of repetitive prose, it still reads poorly. I don't know if you saw me suggest this at my talk page, but I'll repeat what I said over there. The original read:
It's not just repetitive, but twisty and overlong. All you've done to remedy it is change one instance of "government" to "municipal", and paraphrased "as little government interference as possible" to read "minimal government". That's fine if you're just trying to chuck out repetitive words, but what about repetitive ideas? Think about what can be combined or eliminated, what ideas are redundant in the wider context of the article. I'm sure it could be phrased better still, but my suggestion from a few days ago:The character traits of Ron Swanson, a government official who believes in as little government as possible, was inspired by a real-life Libertarian elected official Schur encountered in Burbank who favored as little government interference as possible and admitted, "I don't really believe in the mission of my job."
To me, that doesn't lose any of the intended meaning (Swanson is already established in the article as a character, so how he acts are his traits; the mention of Schur establishes the "real-life" nature of his encounter; Swanson's beliefs and that of the inspiration are combined), but by eliminating the repetitive words and ideas we have something that the reader is less likely to become bored with; they're not re-reading things they're already familiar with, and can be moved swiftly on to the next piece of information. Steve T • C 23:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]Inspiration for Ron Swanson came from an encounter Schur had in Burbank with an elected official, a Libertarian who favored minimal government interference and admitted, "I don't really believe in the mission of my job."
- I see you've (both) tried to respond to Sandy's specific comments, but in that one example of repetitive prose, it still reads poorly. I don't know if you saw me suggest this at my talk page, but I'll repeat what I said over there. The original read:
- I've tried to respond to your specific comments
- Sorry Steve, I didn't see you had responded to me. I've incorporated your suggestion into the article. — Hunter Kahn 01:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cool; no doubt Doc will be able to massage my merely-functional suggestion further. :-) I had planned to offer up a very regretful oppose, based on the prose, which isn't as tight as I've seen on some of your previous articles. But Doc's a pro, so I'm happy to wait until he's done before looking more closely. Something that I did notice was this statement in "Ratings":
It's something I see a lot at film articles, so the sentence was an immediate red flag for me. The issue is with the weasel-y terms "reviewers pointed out" and "commentators said", when you're citing the opinion of just one writer. Essentially, it fails verification; the NYT writer isn't covering what reviewers or commentators have said, he's just offering his own—singular—opinion. Steve T • C 08:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]Several reviewers pointed out that The Office experienced similarly poor ratings during its first season but later became a success. However, commentators said Parks and Recreation would find an ever greater challenge in staying afloat if the early ratings were poor ...
- Thanks for pointing this out Steve, and please take a look at my modification to see if its sufficient. I was pretty certain other commentators have made this observation, but couldn't find them among my source material right away, so for now I've simply made this change. If I do find other sources later and tweak it again, I'll bring it to your attention to see if it still works... — Hunter Kahn 13:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That's much better, but looking at it, I'm thinking that Itzkoff may be authoritative enough that he doesn't even need to be named. Imagine how the sentence might read if it began with "The Office experienced ..." instead. Anyway, no need to act on this for my future support or otherwise, it was just an idle thought to do with what you will. :-) All the best, Steve T • C 13:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for pointing this out Steve, and please take a look at my modification to see if its sufficient. I was pretty certain other commentators have made this observation, but couldn't find them among my source material right away, so for now I've simply made this change. If I do find other sources later and tweak it again, I'll bring it to your attention to see if it still works... — Hunter Kahn 13:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cool; no doubt Doc will be able to massage my merely-functional suggestion further. :-) I had planned to offer up a very regretful oppose, based on the prose, which isn't as tight as I've seen on some of your previous articles. But Doc's a pro, so I'm happy to wait until he's done before looking more closely. Something that I did notice was this statement in "Ratings":
Comment It's close. Doing a top-to-bottom copyedit. Should finish tomorrow. DocKino (talk) 04:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The description in the "Cast" section of Mark as "Leslie's unrequited one-time lover" is quite confusing. Could you please rephrase it more clearly? DocKino (talk) 20:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I just dropped the "one-time" bit altogether and changed to "unrequited love interest". It had been written that way because Leslie and Mark had sex on one occasion in the distant past and Leslie still harbored feelings for him, but Mark did not feel the same way. But it's not really necessary to convey that here... — Hunter Kahn 20:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it may be. He's described as her "former lover" in the episode 1 summary above, which is accurate as far as it goes, but has a very different implication from "unrequited love interest." It's also not as clear as it could be who's interested and who's not requiting. I don't think it would hurt to have a sentence in the "Cast" section spelling out the relationship for those unfamiliar with the show. Something like this: "He was cast as Mark Brendanawicz, a city planner. Mark and Leslie had a long ago one-night stand, but her feelings for him were unrequited." Or similar, per the show's content. DocKino (talk) 20:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I just dropped the "one-time" bit altogether and changed to "unrequited love interest". It had been written that way because Leslie and Mark had sex on one occasion in the distant past and Leslie still harbored feelings for him, but Mark did not feel the same way. But it's not really necessary to convey that here... — Hunter Kahn 20:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I've finished a pretty rigorous copyedit. The article is well sourced and structured, and I believe it now meets the prose standard. DocKino (talk) 00:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you very much, DocKino. As usual, your copy edit was extensive and excellent! — Hunter Kahn 01:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Other than my randomly-scattered comments above (now resolved), everything seems fine. I checked some sources at random, all of which supported the text they were attached to, and they all scan reliable in my book (TV Squad I'd be less than thrilled with if it were citing anything more than a broadcast schedule and personnel change). The images are correctly licensed, and the prose is much improved through the recent work. Nice job, Steve T • C 10:43, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.