In 1988, at the height of "the Troubles" in Northern Ireland, an IRA team attempted to detonate a car bomb in Gibraltar. They were pursued by British special special forces, who shot dead three IRA members who later turned out be unarmed and not in possession of a bomb. The resulting chain reaction left another half a dozen people dead in Belfast, while a dispute over the legality of the SAS' actions raged for another seven years until a ruling from the European Court of Human Rights which left neither side entirely satisfied. This article documents that chain of events, with all its twists and turns.
It's certainly been interesting, given that the subject matter is still controversial today, but I think the article is a neutral summary of the events and the controversy. I'm indebted to Wikimedia UK, who paid for most of the source material; to the MilHist A-class reviewers; and to Scolaire and Rms125a@hotmail.com for their help and for challenging me on the talk page to make this the best article it could be. Any and all feedback is welcome. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:33, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I'm now more than satisfied with the responses by HJ Mitchell. I'm most thankful for the polite and professional demeanor in which HJ Mitchell has conducted himself during his replies to me, it's most appreciated!!! Good luck with the rest of the FAC, — Cirt (talk) 06:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Noting the concern raised by Cirt above about ordering of general and specific references: this was raised at a previous FAC (don't remember offhand which), where I was satisfied that the current ordering is acceptable even if not the most common approach
"trial by television" quote should be cited immediately in the lead
Citation-needed tag needs to be addressed. I see that this issue too was raised above - make a decision about whether it needs to be cited and either add a cite or remove the tag
Support I took a wee hack at the prose; active voice over passive, while, however, NPOV language (which is difficult in an area like this), SAS's; minor stuff mostly. I'd say this is ready for promotion. --John (talk) 11:25, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I reviewed this article at the MILHIST ACR and am pleased with its quality. Great work on a controversial topic by HJ. Parsecboy (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"tracked by Spanish police at the behest of the British government." Nothing wrong with this, but "behest" might puzzle some - isn't "at the request of the British government" the same thing.
Don't know if it makes much difference, but I suppose "behest" could be read as the Spanish not doing it of their own volition, so changed.
"On 6 March, Savage was seen to park a car in the car park used as the assembly area for the parade; McCann and Farrell were seen to cross the border shortly afterwards.". Does one need to repeat "car"? "seen to" is a bit passive. Giving the date rather pushes people to check how it relates to the date of the killings in the first sentence. "On the day of the shootings, Savage was seen parking in the car park used as the assembly area for the parade; McCann and Farrell were seen crossing the border shortly afterwards." - alternatives on these points; pic n' mix.
Fair enough; done.
"The decision is cited as a landmark case in the use of force by the police." - no doubt but of course it wasn't the police shooting here. "by government agencies" or something?
I don't suppose you've got another suggestion? The SAS were (ostensibly) acting in support of the Gibraltar Police in a law enforcement capacity, and it is cited in cases concerning *police* use of force.
When do/did they hold changing of the guard - ie what time? Relevant but not given.
Good question; I don't know off the top of my head. Let me get back to you.
link roundabout I suppose
Do you think it's necessary? I'm not averse, but I'd have thought it's fairly clear from he context that it's something cars go round.
" Farrell's right arm "moved aggressively across the front of his body"," - his body or her body?
Good catch, this. I've been back to the source and corrected it.
"he believed McCann then reached for her handbag, and that he believed she may also have been reaching for a remote detonator." ?? not "he may also have been reaching"?
And this.
Sir Geoffrey Howe - linked twice
Unlinked, since they were in fairly close proximity.
I find the sequences of notes & references odd, but acceptable. But I don't like the piling-up in "taxi ranks" of up to 5 unique references at the same place, that could perfectly well be combined, & would look much better if they were.
I've only done this in a few places, and for one of two reasons: either it's a particular bone of contention, and it's necessary to show that several sources are in agreement (the talk page and history might shed some light on that if you're curious); or in one case I've used the phrase "some sources speculated..." and cited each of the sources that so speculated at the end of the sentence to make it clear that it's not my own speculation and that I'm not embellishing.
I don't in the least object to having multiple cites; I just think think they are better combined together: "Smith p. 28; Brown, p. 30...." Johnbod (talk) 00:18, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Jim Thome was my favorite player growing up watching baseball, and about 18 months ago, I was determined that he was going to have a fantastic Wikipedia article. Three months later, it finally achieved good article status. Last July, I nominated it for featured status, and its first nomination failed. Since then, I have sought feedback not only from the two editors who reviewed it at the first nomination, but from a few other baseball editors, and I feel it is much improved. As such, I hereby nominate it for FAC2. Thank you in advance for your thoughtful feedback. GoPhightins!21:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Go Phightins!. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
Player profile: "He is one of few players whose prime was during the steroid era and was never to have been accused of using steroids". The first part of the sentence doesn't work with the second, when the sentence is read as a whole. Would removing "and was" help?
Offense: The "47.6% of his career plate appearance have resulted in..." bit needs to be updated to past tense because Thome has retired.
Playing characteristics: I see a few other things here that should be moved to past tense, like "His batting stance features him pointing his bat to center field prior to the pitch."
Quick comment: I reviewed this article before it came to FAC, and would prefer to wait for a few other commentators before chipping in fully here. Just one thing that I noticed while re-reading, there seem to be an awful lot of sentences, particularly in the lead and first sections, which begin with conjunctions; "after" seems particularly over-used. Might be worth going through and pruning a few of these to give some more variety. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:32, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also like to make a quick comment - the Player Profile section seems a little scatter-shot at the moment. The first sentence establishes he was a power hitter but then goes into how often he was injured before talking about his career WAR and role in the steroid era. It isn't until the subsequent subsections that detail is offered about offense, defense, etc. Perhaps it would be best to scrap the opening paragraph for parts and move the sentences into the subsections that fit best? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 19:12, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am ambivalent; on one hand, you are right that the opening paragraph does not go into much detail, but I looked at it as a "glorified lead" of the subsequent subsections ... perhaps it could just mention that he was confined to DHing as he aged, he vehemently denies using PEDs, and he is an HOF candidate, and save the specific offense/defense stuff for the subsections, and remove the WAR altogether? GoPhightins!16:52, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think any lead paragraph is necessary in the Player profile section. Just start right away with the Offense subsection. Move the injuries info to Defense to give perspective on how it forced him to become DH. If you want, maybe create a Career Perspective subsection to put the steroid era and WAR info - that seems less vital to me but would be perfectly fine to keep. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 19:14, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Image and source review: Spotchecks not yet done. All the images are appropriately licensed and are properly used. Here are some source issues I found:
Not a fan of how the IMDB ref is being used (#5) especially since I'm sure it can just be replaced with one of the many sources already used.
Add Fangraphs as publisher for ref #46
The Sports Illustrated ref (#48) is missing a title and possibly author. Was it lost in an edit somewhere? Seems like an odd thing to be missing.
Not sure how the Dodgers active roster (#59) would work as a ref given it'd just be the current dynamic one. There's already another ref used in the sentence that one's being used in so it can just be removed.
I think there is a sufficient recurring theme of his philanthropic endeavors, as well as "good guy" personality, throughout the article that a separate section dedicated to philanthropic endeavors is unnecessary. Any other thoughts?
Maybe not an entire section, but I personally think a few sentences with references to articles about his activity with charities would improve the article. -Newyorkadam (talk) 20:15, 6 April 2014 (UTC)Newyorkadam[reply]
I don't really think it is necessary to link to his old website ... meh. It's not in use, and looking at it, not that relevant. GoPhightins!20:00, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from EricEnfermero
Good job, GP. Standard disclaimer that I am an FA newbie.
Early life: In Texas we say snuck all the time, but I think sneaked may be safer.
Minor leagues: Is "hitting guru" a direct quote from Thome?
1991-1997: Not sure you need to specify that he got his first hit in his debut if you specify that he went 2-for-4.
Preceding the 1996 season... I think you can take out previously from this sentence.
1998-2002: his hometown Peoria - I think a comma or "of" belongs before Peoria.
2006-2009: Is White Sox's the common way to make this a possessive?
Second stint with Cleveland: $20,000 seems like a very low cash total one year removed from 25 HR. You mentioned he had become a DH and that he had a no-trade clause. Is there a source you can use to confirm if that was why he was traded for chump change?
Post-playing career: I realize this is a recent development, but it seems like such a short section. Maybe this source could help fill it out at least a little?
Offense: Throughout his career, Thome has been considered... I think it's okay to change this to "was considered".
Personality: Though Thome used a similar phrase, I'm not sure about "exercise in humility" - I usually think of that as a humiliating experience.
Career legacy: You mention his future HOF candidacy here and also in the Post-playing career section.
All concerns addressed. As for the White Sox' vs. White Sox's, I don't know, so I just changed it to Chicago's. I also sought to add some context to what you were confused about with the $20,000 ... you weren't the only one :-) Thanks. GoPhightins!20:36, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from Coemgenus
"Although he had hoped to draw the attention of scouts, his relatively small stature, 6 feet 2 inches (188 cm) and 175 pounds (79 kg), meant that he attracted only passing interest..." This seems surprising. Do you have a source for this? The citation at the end of the sentence only supports the last clause of the sentence.
"Thome later said, "[Manuel] saw something in me I didn't."' On my monitor, the quotation mark in this sentence is on one line and the [Manuel] is on the next. I don't know how to make them stay together, but if you or anyone does, it would look better.
"Despite Thome's statistical improvement in 1994, it was not until 1995 that the Indians' success led to a playoff berth." I'm not sure one part of this sentence has to do with the other. The team could've been the best in baseball history and still not made the playoffs in 1994, since there were no playoffs that year.
"Thome waived his no-trade clause because he thought the Dodgers could reach the World Series, something he had never done during his career..." He played in two World Series, 1995 and 1997. Do you mean to say he thought the Dodgers could win a World Series?
Post-playing career: Is there any news of him since he started working for the White Sox? Any rumors of managerial prospects?
The final three are addressed; as for the first two: I don't know what to say with the second one - on my monitor, the quote appears in the middle of a line, but I agree that if the bracket was split from the opening quote, that would be aggravating. On the first, I know I ready something that said that relatively explicitly, and I added another reference to an already used citation that implies the context, but if that is not enough, I will remove it ... can't remember where I specifically read that. Thanks for your comments, Coemgenus! GoPhightins!01:14, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to support. If anyone can figure out how to fix that typographical problem, it would be great, but it's not a problem that should keep this from being FA. Good luck! --Coemgenus (talk) 00:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I've commented on this article now a few times, and have done a little copy-editing. It is vastly improved since it came to FAC first time around, and the nominator deserves great credit for his hard work and determination. I think this meets the criteria now. The prose feels like it could still be tightened up in places, but I suspect that may be partly because of ENGVAR things which jar a little to my ear, but are not a problem as such (although "tendency to fly under the radar" could be reworded to be more encyclopaedic). It seems fairly accessible to non-fans, and is certainly comprehensive (although I'll leave it to baseball people to judge this one fully). I'd perhaps like a non-sports person to take a look and see if anything could be tightened, but in all honesty I can find little wrong now, and I'm happy to support. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support: To me, the article has shown steady improvement over a long period of time. It now reads easily, providing a comprehensive overview of Thome's life and career. While the language remains accessible to the non-fan, even the serious baseball fan would not be left wanting for significant information about the subject. On the typographical issue, would it be out of line to move the word Manuel outside of the quotes? EricEnfermeroHOWDY!03:54, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A general comment to reviewers and editors: What do you think of the images? I am not sold on the one in the infobox being the one in the infobox, but am unsure as to which image might be better. Thoughts? GoPhightins!21:53, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm okay with it myself, as it is a recent photo of his later playing career. I notice that the 1993 photo has lost some sharpness due to extreme cropping, but I don't see a great photo from his Cleveland days on Commons that could be used to replace it. EricEnfermeroHOWDY!20:24, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notes
Go Phightins, I believe this would be your first successful FAC nom if promoted? That being the case I'd like to see an editor do a spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing. If none of the reviewers above is able to volunteer, we'll list a request at WT:FAC.
Also you have several duplicate links in the article. This script highlights the dups, so pls review and see if any are really necessary.
Duplinks addressed, and yes, this would be my first FA, however I have done 15 successful GAs, and never had any issues with close paraphrasing, so unless I inherited some that I did not check when I started this article, I don't think there should be any issues. That said, someone is more than welcome to check. GoPhightins!16:34, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No reason to think it won't be fine, but it is a ritual we like to put people through when they're new to FAC (and even older hands every so often). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:35, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the Professional career section, when you are talking about a specific season for a team, you should link the team-season article rather than the franchise article. The franchise article is not the proper resource for that kind of content. E.G., he debuted with the 1991 Twins, a team that was a world series champion a few weeks later. You should also clarify if he was on the post season roster for the WS champs.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Several other team-season links are needed in this context. Most season with the Indians seem to have enough text that the team season should also be linked with the text. Yes Doherty pitched for the Tigers, but it is the 1994 Tigers article that would have any hope of contextualizing Doherty's team.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You need to be careful. In [[1997 Cleveland Indians season|1997]], the Indians results in an WP:EASTEREGG. In 1997, [[1997 Cleveland Indians season|the Indians]] would be better. In other instances try to reword the text rather than pipe the YYYY numbers. (e.g. 1999 equally problematic). Seeing the number linked might lead the reader to think it is a MLB year or year in baseball article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I am not going to go through and change every paragraph to say, for example, Thome participated in Cleveland's 1995 season. At this point, I am inclined to unlink them all. GoPhightins!00:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you have a better way of phrasing it, more power to you, but that way was completely grammatically correct. I reverted for now. GoPhightins!10:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"This was the third time in Thome's career that his team had opened a new stadium – the 1994 Cleveland Indians when they opened Jacobs Field and the 2004 Philadelphia Phillies when they opened Citizens Bank Park." We need some more WP:ICs for this. Shouldn't these prior occurrences be chronologically mentioned.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Citing "Thome hit his first home run with the Twins on April 8" with Baseball-Reference.com is not what is best. BR is regarded as a passable source in a pinch. However, many reviewers question the quality of the editorial process at BR and thus on a scale of 1 to 10, BR falls somewhere in the middle. BR should only be used as a source when more reliable sources are not available. I am sure you can find an Associated Press recap of this 2010 game on ESPN.com because I rely on ESPN regularly for my citations. I don't use MLB.com, but imagine they also have a citation for this fact. Both of those sources would be 10s on a RS scale. NYTimes.com may even have a recap of the game discussing this fact.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK - a few responses: that was six years ago, there was a contradiction even then, I have never seen anyone question Baseball-Reference, other than you, right now, and the root of your objection seems to be something from pro-football-reference six years ago, and even in that FAC, Sports Illustrated confirms its reliability, even to the satisfaction of the person who initially raised the objection. So why are you upset with it being used here? GoPhightins!19:49, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I remember having to replace citations more than I remember the support from SI. I have gotten flak from using sports-reference.com in other reviews, but I can't recall which ones. Wheatley was the first. Keep in mind what the premise of WP:RS is. WP is suppose to summarize the reliable sources and those sources are deemed reliable based on the quality of their editorial process. BR seems to be a guy who puts together information from a lot of sources (see here). There is no real evidence of an editorial process. This is why people don't always like the various sports-reference resources.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the names on the list. The work of Pete Palmer, the editor of Who's Who in Baseball, a published resource that is also cited in the article, is "the basis for the Lahman database, and he has provided data to this site". The original founder of the site has a PhD in applied math or something of that nature, and the site is part of the FOX Sports network. Unless you can find some specific objections, specific pieces of information that are incorrect on the site, or otherwise specifically impeach the credibility of the resource, please refrain from calling it "adequate" or otherwise deriding its usage, as it has been a cornerstone of the WP:BASEBALL editorial process for years, and has been deemed in that project one of the leading resources for information. Specific information to the contrary is welcome; vague references to FACs from six years ago from which you cannot remember specific circumstances are not. I will seek to address your linking concerns within the next few days. GoPhightins!02:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
BR is acceptable as a source for many types of facts and many WP:MLB articles cover pre-internet subjects, it has become "a cornerstone of the WP:BASEBALL". For many topics, there is just not an easily accessible source. If we were writing about Frank Robinson, I might not even mention a reliance on BR. I have done a few GAs on pre-internet subjects and do in fact rely on BR. Hector Lopez comes to mind in fact. There aren't a lot of sources that describe him as the third outfielder in of the Mantle-Maris era Yanks the way I am able to do by pointing to BR stats. Please note that WP:RS says: "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." There is no claim that Sean Forman is an authoritative baseball figure. Sports-reference presents no documentation of an editorial process for any of its sites, BR included. What we have is a guy who gathers a whole bunch of other sources and assimilates them. He is basically doing what wikipedians do with reliable sources. WP would not cite another wiki as a reliable source. A diligent assembler of good sources is not a "reliable publication process". Because the sources are so good and much of the resulting content is unlikely to be wrong or misleading, we accept it in most cases. However, when possible we should defer to more reliable sources. The first B-R fact that I saw when I glanced over at the article moments ago was "He hit a solo home run in the AL Central Tiebreaker game, which proved to be the difference as the White Sox defeated the Minnesota Twins, 1–0." This is a 2008 Wild Card playoff game. Yes, you could source this with the current B-R.com reference. However, there are a dozen other sources you could use. You could go to ESPN and use either the box score or the Associated Press recap. Using either of these would put the reader in a tabbed environment with the other easily accessible. You could source it with the MLB.com recap. The second or third place I would look would be the New York Times. There are a bunch of other sources that you could check, including NBC Sports, CBS Sports, CNN/SI, etc. Some of these will also rely on the Associated Press as ESPN does and others will have their own writers. However, all of these would be source with both "a reliable publication process" and "authors who are regarded as authoritative". The BR source is in truth neither "a reliable publication process" nor "authors who are regarded as authoritative". Thus, as I said before I would pursue replacing as many BR refs as possible with Associated Press recaps at ESPN, MLB.com or NYTimes.com. For preinternet facts, I would not press you, bu tin this case, there is little reason to relegate ourselves to BR.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning Oppose Largely due to inadequate WP:ICs. This is a modern day player. Many of his accomplishments have easily findable online refs. I think I could easily tag two dozen sentences in the Professional career section with {{fact}}. In the "Minnesota Twins (2010–2011)" subsection there are easily a half dozen specific facts that I can not really WP:V. Things that happened on April 12, 2010, April 8, August 17, September 4, January 2011, etc. all need ICs. These are things in the current decade that I am sure have dedicated ESPN.com and MLB.com stories. It is inexcusable for such a modern events not to be WP:V.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
EricEnfermero has done some terrific work adding sources (thanks Eric!); let me know if you find other specific omissions in terms of sources ... I think the reason some of them are missing sources is that, at one point, this article relied predominantly upon a JockBio biography, which has since been removed. Over the last several months, I have been replacing those, but obviously have missed some. Thanks for pointing that out, TonyTheTiger. GoPhightins!17:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, I would ask that you yourself go back through the entire professional career section. Look at each sentence and ask yourself it is a fact that likely has a story online in a WP:RS. If so, if the fact currently does not have a WP:IC, find one. I really should not have to run through each paragraph like I did for the one I presented. Everything for the last 10 or 12 years certainly should have an online story. I am pretty sure ESPN game recaps from the Associated Press go back about that far. The writing is excellent. However, in terms of WP:V, the article has a lot of room to improve.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:03, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
More examples of things that need citation (and possibly more detail):
Cited with home run log ... easily discerned from there; Google News archive, however, is no longer particularly accessible, so alternate news article would be difficult to ascertain (I perused HighBeam for a moment, and did not find any)
The daily Associated Press American League round up is a much better source. Something is wrong with one of the citations for this fact. It seems to be broken. However, what you need to track a lot of older facts is a way to find the daily American or National League roundup from the Associated Press. It seems that the Los Angeles Times is one of the newspapers that prints this roundup daily and has online archives going back to the early 1990s. Each day you are looking for a link like this. Then find whichever roundup you need. Probably any fact notable enough to be in the WP article should be in the AP daily league roundup. E.g., see his 1st multi-homer game recap. If you use the league roundup, we don't have to deal with how WP defines a WP:RS. No one is going to question anything from the AP in the LA Times. By the early or mid 2000s you can find every game recap on ESPN.com--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"It was not until 1995 that the Indians' success led to a playoff berth." I am sure there are newspaper stories that say this was the Indians first playoff appearance in X years.
Not really relevant how long it has been since they made the playoffs; he wasn't on the team the last time, but cited to Who's Who in Baseball anyway.
"Thome led the team by hitting .314 with 25 home runs and 73 RBIs"
Source spotcheck: I checked the following sources: 3, 4, 21, 41, 50, 60, 78, 102, 105, 115, and 137, chosen randomly excluding the first two. The duplication detector showcased nothing of worry, but more importantly everything noted in the article is seen in the references, and written in the writer's own words. The only nitpick I have is that i see that Joe Posnanski's article on Thome at 40 is in the article a few times. Technically, it's referenced by each of the four Sports Illustrated pages so it's okay as is in my book, but if anyone else has an issue then that might need tweaking. Either way I'm entirely fine with how the well-cited article as is on that front. Wizardman01:49, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support I asked to do a spot check being an "expert" in this field, all the information matches, everything is accurate, easily among Wikipedia's best written work and I recommend one of the FAC delegates to ignore TonyTheTiger's comments above as his review is based on his personal opinion and not rooted in policy. Secretaccount19:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am not basing my review on personal opinion, but rather personal experience in WP reviews. I can add a couple dozen {{fact}} tags to the article to demonstrate its deficiencies, but we have not gotten to that point. I have issues with lack of ICs, use of BR and team season issues. You should not ignore my whole review due to a disagreement on one issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All right. Can we please hammer out this issue on the reliability of Baseball Reference? I posed several points above, and am more than willing to go to WT:BASEBALL or the reliable sources noticeboard should you really wish to challenge the reliability of the site, but it is plainly evident throughout a myriad of FAs that it has been deemed reliable, possibly even including some you have supported. What exactly is your issue with it? GoPhightins!21:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
1988 is pre-internet. By the time Thome got to a point in his career where he was hitting milestones we were in the internet era. I said I have been told to replace it in places where it can be easily done. IIRC, even the Wheatley article retains some sports-reference.com sources that weren't easily replaced. BR is an adequate source, but it should not be used when other far superior sources exist that have clear editorial processes are available.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment as WP:CHICAGO director I rarely get involved in FAC discussions for our project. However, the lack of WP:V for this article is basically a state of emergency. The prose is of such good quality that I feared the article would pass without meeting a standard that goes beyond the old "Brilliant Prose" that once was approved at WP:FAC. However, now that we require WP:ICs for every fact in the article, many WP:RS need to be added to this article to differentiate it from the WP:FAs of years gone by. I have stepped in to attempt to guide the development of this article. Progress is not being made in any direction that is encouraging. Thus, I have downgraded my Leaning Oppose to a full Oppose. I will begin adding {{fact}} throughout the article by the end of the week if progress is not made. I don't want this to be the only WP:CHICAGO FA from this decade that does not meet WP:V.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are a plethora of inline citations in this article, and I have read through it several times trying to discern exactly what you want cited, and I think perhaps some of the confusion may be that multiple sentences are supported by a single ref, at least one of which is offline, which may cause confusion. I do find your prevailing sentiment of "I am here from WP:CHICAGO to save Wikipedia from promoting a crappy FA" to be rather unnecessarily unnecessary (I will stipulate that isn't exactly brilliant prose there ) ... this article has been through a rigorous GA review, a PR and a de facto second PR, and this FAC, which has included several commentators, including one who did a source spotcheck, that have not shared your concerns, so I am rather torn as to an appropriate course of action in this situation, as you seem to be the only one that thinks one must cite that the sky is blue. Fine, tag them with fact tags, but that really borders on disruptive. You are more than welcome to list on this page what you think needs cited (yes, I know there are 4 items above at which I have not yet had time to look), but introducing tags throwing the credibility of an already good article (see Talk:Jim Thome/GA1 - it was hardly a rubber stamp) is detrimental to the encyclopedia. GoPhightins!10:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The edits by EricEnfermero were a step in the right direction. The subsequent edits have not really helped out to much. If you don't see things that are not WP:V, then I will have to {{fact}}. You can try to waive the WP:BLUE wand if you like when I do, but I am pretty experienced at GA. Obviously you can remove all the ones that are cited in a broader WP:IC. It might be better if you had Eric go through all the other sections and do what he did in the section that I pointed out. Obviously he understood the relevance of WP:V, even if you don't. WP:BLUE has little to do with this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Some more citation work done; for the record, for edits that have "not helped out to [sic] much", you have stricken several of your concerns. GoPhightins!20:44, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The ESPN articles provide the date of the game, but not the date of the recap, which could be either the date of the game, or the date of the wee hours of the subsequent morning. GoPhightins!21:08, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All right, though I know for the Phillies.com recaps, Todd Zolecki usually posts them at about 1:00 AM (e.g., [http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_04_14_atlmlb_phimlb_1&mode=recap_home&c_id=phi this one was posted at 1:45 the next day). It seems to me that speculating on when the report might have been posted is not necessary because a) in line, the citations are generally included after mentioning a date, and b) if the reader clicks on the link, they will see the day that the recap is recapping, and can go from there; some ESPN articles say "date published" on the right side under the title, but these do not, so I am inclined to leave it go, unless that's a sticking point for you. GoPhightins!21:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
MLB.com may have a different deadline structure than the Associated Press. Usually within about 15 minutes there is a sketch of the recap. It might take an hour or so for the final version of the full story, but it is acceptable to use the game date, IMO. That is what I always use. BTW edit summaries like this that say "before I'm told this needs a citation" present a really bad attitude. You are not adding citations so that I am happy. We add ICs so that the reader is happy when he can WP:V. You are not adding citations to make me happy with your FA nomination today. You are adding them so that every person who reads the article going forward can WP:V things from a WP:RS. This is not a you vs. me thing. This is a you and the reader thing.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for the edit summary ... I was just somewhat frustrated. That citation, frankly, is probably extraneous, as the subsequent citations cover it, but the impression I got reading your earlier comments was that every sentence needed a citation immediately after it, which was the frustrating part for me. Perhaps this was a false impression, but a couple of the things you previously mentioned were cited in subsequent sentences, so I was not sure. I will add the game dates as dates for the references. GoPhightins!22:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All right. I added the dates. I have read through the article three times now looking for things that might possibly need citations, and have not found much. At this point, go ahead and compile a list (here preferably rather than fact tags, but I suppose whichever, as I am free for another couple of hours and can remove them in short order) of what still needs cited. Also, I have tried to tweak a few season links, but am struggling to work the year, team and "season" all into a sentence for a few of the links without sounding choppy and awkward. GoPhightins!22:15, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What's wrong with 25-27? They all have dates, and look like they have necessary information to me? I caught several that were missing dates, and I am sure someone who has worked on as many GAs and whatnot as you can empathize with the nauseating feeling that comes after looking at a reflist for a while, so I got Wizardman to look in IRC, and he found a few more, so I believe all have dates, at least that we caught. GoPhightins!10:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really feel inclined to do that, as nothing is jumping out at me in the references in that area right now. If you still have a concern with those references, please be specific about which ones they are. GoPhightins!12:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Are you seriously saying that you think it is my responsibility to keep track of what the numbers are. At 21:23, 17 April 2014 (UTC) I complained about 40, 94, 114 and 119. You have fixed one of those and responded to several other concerns often by adding refs. Thus, three of these remain unaddressed. All you have to do is go to the history tab in Thome's article and find the last version before this time and see which references were at those 4 numbers.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:43, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think when those reference numbers change, since you best know what you are talking about, it might be mildly courteous to just repeat them with new numbers rather than send me guessing into the article history ... some times on this site appear in EDT for me, while others in UTC because of something I set at one point that I really should unset, but anyway, the numbers do not appear to match up for me, so I was merely asking if you still remembered what references you had concerns with. GoPhightins!12:58, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My best guess is that this, which is in the neighborhood of 40, is a concern, but I don't know why, as it is appropriately cited, and is static. I guess 114 might be the ESPN scouting report, which, though I am an ESPN insider, I cannot view for some reason at the moment. Whaddya think of Fangraph's reliability? I can try there ... I have no idea what your issue with this is. Are you talking about this? That would make sense, and I see what you are saying. Fixed. GoPhightins!13:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Tony, I see your post, and will take another look later this evening (hopefully). I am off to Maundy Thursday services at church now, and we are eating afterwards, though, so it might not be until tomorrow. Are there any other facts in the article that you think need citations? GoPhightins!21:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The game box score is there, which indicates that he played third base, and his BR page is now there to confirm that was the date of his debut. GoPhightins!13:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"For the 2001 Indians' season, he finished second in the AL with 49 home runs. In addition, Thome had 124 RBIs and 111 walks. However, he led the league with 185 strikeouts. He and Juan Gonzalez, who totaled 140 RBIs, powered the Indians to another division title." seems to have several uncited facts.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:13, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What am I missing? Does the MLB.com article say something about him falling one short of the record. From the 3 citations, I can see that it was one short of Schmidt's total, but how do we know 48 was the record at the time.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're correct. I misread the ref, thinking it was talking about season home runs, not career home runs. Fixed now.
Injuries are covered ad nauseam in the player profile section ... for the "injuries shortened his 1992 campaign", I have only information that he was on the disabled list, no indication why, and since the Google News Archive is essentially closed, I have little recourse to find why. GoPhightins!02:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. good catch. A list of players was there a few days ago, but I reworded per a suggestion from another editor. Fixed (though check wording - seems a little ... meh ... not terrific to me). Feel free to boldly change. GoPhightins!02:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wizardman, Secret, and I were in the wiki-baseball IRC channel discussing the article, and Wizardman was offering some minor copyediting suggestions, one of which had to do with this sentence: "In the 1994 offseason, Cleveland made several acquisitions in an attempt to compete after seven consecutive seasons with a losing record. Sandy Alomar Jr., Kenny Lofton, Carlos Baerga, and Mark Clark were brought in to join Thome and 22-year-old Manny Ramirez.[15]" (appears in this revision). I believe Secret opined that those were not all household names, and Wizardman commented that it wasn't technically correct, as at least one of those players had already been there, so we agreed the best course of action would be to direct quote the article rather than the former wording, which was somewhat synthesis (in all honesty, I don't remember why the list of names was ever there ... it could have been me a long time ago, or not me even a longer time ago). GoPhightins!13:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Details like who the heck you are talking about are important to a reader. The list needs to be there for the reader. He is not going to know who you are talking about unless you tell him. He should want to know who you are talking about and you should tell him.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but the article doesn't list names, and I don't know how they got there ... they are not sourced, so I can list who some new acquisitions were and cite it to, I don't know, BR, or something, but that's still synthesizing the meaning of the article, and probably is a violation of WP:NOR. If you look at the article (which I just did to refresh myself), there is somewhat of a positional blow-by-blow, but it does not encompass the names that were previously listed. Let me reword the sentence to see what I can do that will not be original research/synthesis, TonyTheTiger. GoPhightins!12:20, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That should read "with the help of the aforementioned core". Oh, I see why it doesn't; that edit is in my editing window, but I never saved it. Done. What about Fangraphs?GoPhightins!13:59, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The ESPN scouting report now loads for me, so I updated that piece of information to reflect the end of his career, and now we are good on that front. I think that all your reference concerns are now addressed, TonyTheTiger. GoPhightins!17:04, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, mentioned above. The reference to his ESPN scouting report was not loading for me, but then it did, and I updated the information, so it should be correct (reference #118) GoPhightins!02:04, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wizardman is your Source spotcheck considered the source review for this FAC? If so can you give me an explanation of condoning rampant use of Baseball-reference.com I have argued that its use should be minimized in my 06:00, 14 April 2014 post. Please note that WP:RS says: "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." I don't see how BR qualifies on either count, but understand its favorable track record for reliability.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're the only one that seems to have a problem with baseball-reference, which has long been established as reliable for statistics. If what you're looking for is sources noting the site's reliability, then here's some: [3][4]. Sure it's nice to cite news sources themselves for numbers, but there's no issue in using it to note season totals, records, and the like. Plus it's used 12 times out of 151 sources (not counting the same source used multiple times), so a 10% usage rate is certainly not rampant. Wizardman23:48, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My problem is that despite its good reputation, it is not an RS by definition. Second, although BR is acceptable to use because it is reliable, it would be an improvement to use better sources because for many of the facts cited by BR a source with prose contextualizing the fact while also providing verification would be superior to just BR's statistical verification.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:18, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that it does not meet the definition of a reliable source. It has an incredibly strong reputation per the aforementioned articles from Wizardman. According to WP:SOURCE, "Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications." Sports Illustrated is undoubtedly a "respected mainstream publication" that praises Baseball-Reference. Moreover, it certainly does not meet any of the negative criteria in WP:NOTRELIABLE. Moreover, you stipulated "BR is acceptable to use because it is reliable"; I see absolutely no need whatsoever to go digging through archives to contextualize stats. At the end of the day, Baseball-Reference is being used in this article to cite statistics. Using it as a source violates no policies, it is a top-notch source for baseball statistics, and there is no compelling reason other than personal preference to unequivocally abandon it and go digging for other sources that are no more reliable. By the way, I believe your above concerns are addressed. GoPhightins!02:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do you understand the value of contextualizing facts to the reader? Saying "I see absolutely no need whatsoever to go digging through archives to contextualize stats" sounds off to me. Look back at the refs I offered above for his first multihomer game versus the BR citation you are using. Think about what the references offer the reader.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:18, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In some situations, I agree that contextualizing facts is important. However, for example, in none of the five instances his BR page (just the normal page) is used, do I think there is need to dig for increased contextualization. In some of the games, would it be nice? Perhaps, but nowhere in the FA criteria does it stipulate "references must be appropriately contextualized", so to hold up this FAC over that is not exactly helpful. What other concerns do you have about the article meeting those criteria? GoPhightins!13:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see 2007 Angels & White Sox; 2008 Royals, White Sox; 2009 Dodgers; 2010 White Sox; 2011 Twins; 2012 Phillies. Still missing. When you are discribing X pitcher of Y team, it is not the entire franchise that he plays for. In those uses he is playing for the YYYY team.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done - those links are added. By the way, as a Chicagoan, you might know this - what is the possessive form of White Sox? White Sox's White Sox'? GoPhightins!10:32, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"This was the third time in Thome's career that his team had opened a new stadium – the 1994 Cleveland Indians when they opened Jacobs Field and the 2004 Philadelphia Phillies when they opened Citizens Bank Park." We need some more WP:ICs for this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:51, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Tony, happy Easter to you. I will work on these things as soon as I get settled down watching this afternoon's Phillies games, which will be in about a half hour. Thanks. GoPhightins!19:59, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All right, I believe the season links are addressed, I worked on the generous contract offer thing, and think it is all right now, and added citations for the opening of Citizens Bank Park and Jacobs Field, seeking to include information that tied Thome to it. For the Phillies, it was not hard, as he hit the first double in CBP history in the first game, however I found it somewhat challenging for the Indians. I added a highlight reel that shows Thome visually, as well as a pamphlet from the Indians indicating its opening date. I suppose the Baseball-Reference box score is always an option too ... GoPhightins!20:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about Mucho Macho Man, a racehorse who won the 2013 Breeders' Cup Classic. Not only was he named after the Village People song, but he has a very interesting back story, as do several of the people who work with him, particularly his trainer, who is a heart transplant recipient and the first woman trainer to win the "classic." His story is not yet "complete" as he is racing again for one more year before being retired to stud, but my hope is to run this article as TFA in fall 2014 when the Breeders' Cup races come around again. WikiProject horse racing has been working on this article quite a bit since he won last November, and we had some great input before and at the peer review from Dana Boomer, RexxS, Eric Corbett, and Nikkimaria, among others. Do note that I am a WikiCup participant. Montanabw(talk)19:45, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Montanabw. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Finetooth comments: I haven't a bit of horse sense but simply focused on the prose. Here are a few suggestions.
Lack of horse knowledge ≠lack of horse sense! LOL! Non-horse people comments are actually preferred, lest we lapse into complete gibberish! --MTBW
I may lack both. I might be called a cat person. --FT
Lead
"In February 2014, anticipating a future career as a breeding stallion, Reeves Thoroughbred Racing sold an undisclosed share in the horse to Frank Stronach on behalf of Stronach's Adena Springs Farms, who also owns Mucho Macho Man's sire, Macho Uno." - Grammar: Reeves has no future as a breeding stallion. Farms is a "which" rather than a "who".
Reworded. Better? --MTBW
Looks good. --FT
"At the time Reeves purchased the horse, they placed him..." - Maybe "the Reeves" to match "they"?
OK, and should that be "Reeves", "Reeveses" or "Reeves' " - I've been ripping my hair out about that structure, I've seen all three used in the press. (sigh) --MTBW
Reeves looks fine to me and more natural than Reeveses. Gerda's option would work too, if you prefer. --FT
Used the "Dean and Patti Reeves" option this time, as it's the lead. I still have some hair left! LOL! --MTBW
"...Tim Ritvo, who soon after began a job..." - Delete "after"?
It was after the horse came to him... I replaced it with who shortly thereafter..." Better? --MTBW
Yes, good. --FT
"...a job with Gulfstream Park and thus training duties were turned over to Tim's wife and fellow trainer Kathy Ritvo, who trained Mucho Macho Man from his fourth race on." - Full stop after "Park"? Begin next sentence with "Training duties". "Thus" is not quite right since Tim's wife didn't get the job only because Tim moved on. She was qualified in her own right, yes?
True, she actually had been training more horses than he had prior to her illness. Fixed. Better? --MTBW
Yes. --FT
"...all with an ongoing commitment to doing what they think is best for the horse." - Omit this unnecessary boilerplate?
Welllllll... open to ideas on how to do this better - and maybe it doesn't have to be in the lede, but I kind of added it - and recently - because these folks actually DO seem very committed; more so than average. What I actually wish I could say is "these people have an unusually high degree of commitment to a single horse that they all are personally quite attached to," but that's WP:SYNTH. Thoughts? --MTBW
It's tough to leave out what you know to be true. However, you are stuck with what the sources support. My problem with what I've called "boilerplate", which was not very nice of me, is that the claim sounds like something a public relations firm would say about most any group of professionals. For example, you could say of teachers in a particular school that they "all have an ongoing commitment to doing what they think is best for the student". Specific examples showing "an unusually high degree of commitment" and described as such by an RS would do the trick. Since you've noticed the Reeves' unusual commitment, maybe others have too? Magazine articles about Mucho Macho Man is where I would look for something like this, though you may no doubt have already. --FT
You are right that it sounds like what everyone is supposed to say. Until I can find an article that says so (Steve Haskin is bound to, eventually...) I guess I have to just let the facts stand for themselves.
"Due to his size, the growing young horse sometimes also got in his own way during his early races, particularly as a three-year-old, when he stepped on his front feet with his hind feet and tore off a horseshoe in two different races." - Wordy. Maybe "As he grew bigger, the horse sometimes erred in his early races, particularly as a three-year-old. In two races, he stepped on his front feet with his hind feet and tore off a horseshoe."
He was kind of a klutz from the get-go until he grew up - think Great Dane puppy - or that high school basketball player called "Stretch" before he turned into Shaq! I reworded a little to trim and yet not mess up the nuance. Any better? --MTBW
Yes, and better than my suggestion too. I like it. --FT
" He won a preparatory race, the Awesome Again Stakes, his seventh win overall and his first Grade I win, which qualified him for the 2013 Breeders' Cup Classic, which he won, narrowly defeating Will Take Charge and Declaration of War." - Too many clauses. Split into two sentences?
Done --MTBW
Check. --FT
"Mucho Macho Man returned to the track in January 2014 to race for one more year, with his team having a goal to return him to defend his title at the 2014 Breeders' Cup Classic in November." - Replace the awkward "with plus -ing" construction. Maybe "Mucho Macho Man returned to the track in January 2014. His team's goal was to prepare him to defend his title at the 2014 Breeders' Cup Classic in November."
Done --MTBW
Check. --FT
Background
Mr. Green Jeans shouldn't be linked inside a direct quotation.
It's not a direct quotation, it's a nickname, just as I put his other nickname, "Lazurus" in quotes a sentence or two prior?? --MTBW
Yes, you are right. --FT
"He benefitted from the commitment of the people around him, who consistently state their decisions are based on 'what's best for the horse.' " - Delete boilerplate. What else would they say?
Same as in lede. Thoughts on SYNTH? --MTBW
Please see my reply above. With luck, something heretofore undiscovered may turn up. --FT
Racing career
"However, he disliked being whipped, and notorious for his dislike of wet conditions..." - Insert "was" before "notorious".
Done--MTBW
Quarter Horse shouldn't be linked inside a direct quotation.
Says the MOS where? (not sarcastic, sincere question) - and how else to we explain to readers what a Quarter Horse is without adding an extra sentence? --MTBW
Yes. To find the relevant MOS subsection, take the elevator to the seventh level and duck into the first crawlway on the right, and there it is. I've run into the same problem in other articles, and there's usually a tidy work-around. Something like "compared by one journalist to that of a Quarter Horse" might do. --FT
Bleech. The quote was direct from the jockey after the Breeders' Cup but I guess I can rephrase. Better? --MTBW
Yep. --FT
2010: two-year-old season
Should "Graded class" be "graded class"?
Done --MTBW
Check. --FT
2011: three-year-old season
"and one again behind Gourmet Dinner, who finished third" - "Once" instead of "one"?
Whoops! Done --MTBW
Check. --FT
"Ritvo took away the blinkers for in a workout prior to the race and kept them off..." - Remove "in"?
Done--MTBW
Check. --FT
"Mucho Macho Man was sixth behind Shackleford in the Preakness, his low placing possibly because he again tore off a shoe at the start, this time his left front, even though Ritvo had switched him to glued-on horseshoes." - Too many clauses. Maybe "Mucho Macho Man was sixth behind Shackleford in the Preakness. At the start, he again he tore off a shoe, this time from his left front, even though Ritvo had switched him to glued-on horseshoes. The misstep may have accounted for his low placing."
Done. Better?--MTBW
Yes, looks good. --FT
"A knowledgeable horseman but also an openly-acknowledged recovering alcoholic who committed to straightforwardness as part of his sobriety, Green insisted that as a condition of employment he had the right to advocate for what was best for a horse under his management, even if that meant expressing disagreement and imposing "tough love" on the owners." - Too many clauses. Also, it's not clear why Green's status as a recovering alcoholic would give him license to be any more or less straightforward than a non-alcoholic. Would horse owners considering hiring anyone who did not "advocate for what was best for a horse under his management"?
Kind of part of how everyone around the horse has some tale of trouble and redemption. And yeah, the whole AA commitment to not lying to yourself and all, it takes guts to stand up to rich owners. I'll tighten the wording and cut the recovering alcoholism bit for now, but his "comeback" was, in its own way, as remarkable as Ritvo's heart transplant, would be open to a way to put that in there. (Maybe look at the source article, it's very interesting) --MTBW
I need to read the source article and give this further thought. I agree that the content is probably usable somehow. Just off the top of my head, I'd think about adding a "Notes" subsection to the "References" section and telling Green's personal story in a note if it won't fit smoothly into the main text. Last voyage of the Karluk uses a notes system that I've grown fond of, but there are more ways to the woods than one. Please disregard this struck comment; you already have a perfectly good Notes system in the article. --FT
Would it work just to alter the first sentence of the Green paragraph to say: "In September, Finn Green, a recovering alcoholic with his own story of triumph over adversity, began working for Reeves."?? --FT
Works for me! --MTBW
Check. --FT
2013: five-year-old season
"On November 2, Mucho Macho Man contested his second Breeders' Cup Classic and started the 4–1 second favorite in a strong field..." - I'm not sure what this means. It's the phrase, "started the 4–1 second favorite" that puzzles me. What does "4–1" refer to? Odds of finishing second?
Ah, that was awkward. I added a link to Parimutuel betting the first time in the article that odds are mentioned and made a tweak here. Better? --MTBW
Yes. --FT
"His win in the Classic was also selected as the National Thoroughbred Racing Association's "Moment of the Year," with participation in the online polling for that award up by more than 50% from the previous year, believed to be largely due to the popularity of Mucho Macho Man and the people around him." - Replace "with" connector, perhaps by splitting the sentence into two separate sentences. Spell out "percent".
Done. --MTBW
I tweaked this a bit more. Please check my changes to make sure they are OK. --FT
Groovy --MTBW
2014: six-year-old season
"With the announcement that Will Take Charge was also coming to California, the 2014 race became the most highly anticipated running since the matchup of Alysheba and Ferdinand in 1988, being the only other time in history that the previous year's Breeders' Cup top two finishers returned to challenge one another in the Santa Anita Handicap." - Full stop after 1988, and rewrite the rest as a complete sentence?
Used a semicolon and chopped some words. Better?--MTBW
I added a missing word, "was", then added "that year" for clarity. Please check my changes. --FT
Rephrased that again - I had it a similar way initially, until I realized that it is possible that the top two BC winners may have met up at other races at other tracks, the big deal - and all the source verifies - was this specific race. If you want to tweak the grammar some more, just do so with that in mind.--MTBW
Yurk! I see (I think). The semicolon was throwing me off; I kept looking for a verb for the stuff after the semicolon. I changed the semicolon to a comma, which I think makes the whole thing OK. --FT
"Sixteen horses were nominated for the race and Mucho Macho Man was assigned the highest impost at 124 pounds (56 kg), with rivals Will Take Charge assigned 123 pounds (56 kg) and Game on Dude at 122 pounds (55 kg)." - "With" isn't a good conjunction. Suggest full stop after (56 kg). The rest might appear as "Will Take Charge raced at 123 pounds (56 kg) and Game on Dude 122 pounds (55 kg)."
OK. Better? --MTBW
Yes. I altered the conversion templates to show more exact figures since the rounded conversions made the first two horses look identical in kilograms. Please revert if this violates racing convention. --FT
No, that's fine. We just use pounds in the USA, so I think a standard decimal conversion like you did is fine. @Tigerboy1966: did we screw up any conversions for UK readers (I think they use "stone" in the UK anyway... good luck converting that) --MTBW
(FAC stalker:) In the UK we use "stones" (14 pounds) for weight of people, but not for very much else. All of us right-ponders would understand pounds in the context of an impost; you could check "What we do" to see if the British Horseracing Authority's method matches your understanding. --RexxS (talk) 21:16, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Pedigree
"both horses being out of the mare Primal Force." - Rather than tacking this on with "both ... being", I'd suggest a full stop, then "Both were out of the mare Primal Force." Finetooth (talk) 21:09, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support by Finetooth. All my concerns have been addressed, and I believe the article meets all the criteria for promotion. Finetooth (talk) 00:28, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Gerda
I had no time to read the above, so apologize for likely repetition. I am also no horse person and was happy about links for terms such as dam. I wonder if they might be repeated to their first appearance in the article, as the lead is long.
I am glad to link as needed, if there were some missed at first use, feel free to put them in, or just ask me to. I'm OK with adding them again later, but some people will then complain that I am overlinking, so please advise. --MTBW
Others should look at it. I didn't see it missing a first time, but when a so far unknown term (such asdam) appeared in the body the first time, it was not linked, - but a link would help me, forgetful as I am --GA
I happen to agree with you, but I usually get busted for overlinking! So COLLECTIVE WISDOM; suggestions? --MTBW
Lead: "Due to his size, the growing young horse sometimes also got in his own way during his early races" - what does "also" mean? - A little later "win, won"?
Finetooth had some issues there too. I reworded that section, see if it's better now? --MTBW
Yes --GA
Background - is that a good header for the description? Born late in he year - difficult competition - seemed lifeless: the sequence seems odd ;) - Do we know who named him Lazarus? - "Not only did the horse survive near-death in 2008, so did his eventual trainer, Kathy Ritvo, who had a heart transplant in November 2008." seems a bit too playful for such serious matters.
We use "background" for other race horse articles; it's sort of standard, not that it's perfect. I don't have a source for who nicknamed him "Lazurus" - implied it was the people at the farm where he was born, but not sure who specifically. Open to ideas to rephrase the near-death bit; it is joyful because they both survived and triumphed over adversity; which is part of why this whole story is interesting. --MTBW
I don't want to change all horse articles ;) - I would expect under Background his parents, conditions of life,history of owners. His description, I would like to see in additional Description, which might cover his character, see just below. I will think about the wording, need coffee first and have other topics, with a deadline --GA
Hmmm. It is quite difficult to separate his character from his racing career. What I wound up doing is putting MORE into the racing career section, to keep his training history all in one place. That paragraph now can stand wherever - it all needs to go in background or it all needs to stay where it is now. I've some flexibility here, but it was in "background" and I moved it because it felt better elsewhere - but I've also been staring at the article until I am bleary-eyed, so will defer to the collective wisdom on this one too! --MTBW
Not much collective wisdom has appeared here ;) - I still find that a description is not what would expect as "background", - it's pretty much in the foreground.
Racing career: surprised to find his character described there.
I had it in the background section for a while, but the racing career section needed an intro, and this was general commentary on what he was like as a racehorse, so I moved it there. Thoughts on how to do it better? --MTBW
see just above, and yes, please others? --GA
See above --MTBW
If the racing career needs an intro, could that be a summary? For not a horse person, what follows is very detailed. --GA
2010: "After that race, he changed ownership and trainers." He who? Gourmet Dinner was the last mentioned.
Rephrased. Better? --MTBW
Yes, now it's not ambiguous. Consider something like: it was then that the Reeves bought him. They had ... --GA
I read through it, am impressed and close to supporting, but will wait a bit longer for collective wisdom on a paragraph "meet the horse" (you will find a better header) on his physical and character presence combined, not half in background, half in career, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I actually share your dilemma as I moved it back and forth a couple times myself. I think I'll PING the collective wisdom: @Finetooth:, @Tigerboy1966:, @ColonelHenry:, can you guys take a look at Gerda's question, which is basically if the first paragraph of the racing career section would be better up in background - My original idea for moving it was to do an intro to the racing career section with an overview that also covered his general quirks as a racehorse. I thought it an improvement, but maybe not. Comments? Montanabw(talk)21:19, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As I am probably guilty of introducing/proliferating the "Background" sub-heading I feel I should chip in. Under this heading I would tend to include everything that happened before the horse began its racing career. The advantage of this rather woolly heading is that it can be used for just about any racehorse, from any country in the last 250 years. Tigerboy1966 21:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And what I did was stretch it a bit beyond that, to include an overview of his ownership and an assessment of what Gerda calls his "character" - traits he has as a racehorse (hates the mud, fast out of the gate, reacts poorly to being whipped, etc.) - things that are kind of awkward to scatter randomly throughout the chronology of races. Montanabw(talk)03:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objection to moving the paragraph in question up into the Background section. That seems a bit tidier to me than the existing arrangement. Finetooth (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I like the new arrangement. Perhaps think about subheaders in the rather long "Background" which starts with the description - which seems in the foreground to me ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Gerda. You may have a point, I think Tigerboy1966 and the rest of the WP Horse racing clan will need to discuss how to handle a standardized format on these longer articles, it's a good idea. Montanabw(talk)17:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
in that context, the speaker said a whole lot more prior to that statement, so it's not the beginning of a sentence, it's the end. I think it appropriate given the context, which was "He ran fast, and I geared him down at the end and tried not to overdo it." I didn't want to use an overlong quote, and "he ran fast" was kind of, a "well, duh" thing for the jockey to say, kind of obvious given that he won by 14 lengths... ;-) that said, if you really want the elipses out, I'll toss them. Please advise--MTBW
OK, dead. (But will note in passing that in legal citation - which I know isn't what we are using here - introductory ellipses are appropriate to signal when you are jumping into the middle of a sentence, just saying) --MTBW
Our Manual of Style gives an example of an initial ellipsis in the MOS:ELLIPSISFunction and implementation section. But the Associated Press stylebook recommends that if the truncated sentence can stand as a sentence, it should do so. I think I'm with Nikki and the AP here - this quote is the second half of a compound sentence and we don't care about the first half and the conjunction. --RexxS (talk) 16:35, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I fixed it that way. --MTBW
FN13, 65, 66: date format is different here than for other sources
Fixed, let me know if I missed something --MTBW
Sometimes Daily Racing Form is italicized, sometimes not - it should be
Fixed--MTBW
Why does FN25 include publisher but other online publications not?
If you mean the Brisnet source, it's because Brisnet is weird and doesn't make it easily clear internally that The Handicapper's Edge is part of its web site, nor the date of the article; you have to backtrack to an earlier page to get both - poor web design on their part. But if you want me to pitch "Brisnet", I can do so, Please advise --MTBW
Why does USA Today include location but The Guardian not?
I think a difference of opinion between myself and another editor, but Please advise which way you want me to go before I go fix a bunch of stuff in the wrong direction - you want location on all of these or none of these? --MTBW
This is one of those things that it doesn't really matter which you pick so long as you're consistent. In this case since you've got most publications of that type including location it would make more sense to add it to Guardian, but that's your call. Nikkimaria (talk) 06:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Added location. Easier fix.
FN81: despite what the website says, "Press Release" is not an author. And why is the other press release credited to Staff?
true that, but what do you want me to do about it? I'll make both staff for now, pending if you'd prefer a different format - Please advise--MTBW
"Press Release" generally implies outside third party - particularly when multiple publications copy it verbatim, ;-) though the identity of WHO issued the press release isn't always clear. Frankly, there are several different ways this could be cited, so just say what your preference is here and I'll do it. Please advise--MTBW
FN83 needs endash
Fixed but =:-O It took me longer to find it than anything else on this list -- (er —) be kind to older eyes! --MTBW
Different editors, I think. I'll make it consistent to "staff," let me know if I missed any --MTBW
Equibase now fine (except FN32 and 71 should have uppercase), but Equineline needs the same treatment (compare FNs 1 and 92). Nikkimaria (talk) 06:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed I think, holler if I missed anything else. -MTBW
Most "pdf" notations are lowercase, but FN86 is uppercase - doesn't matter which but be consistent
FIXED --MTBW (If you see these minor one-offs and can easily fix them on the spot, just do so, I don't mind)
FN78 and 84 have slightly different publication titles and different locations - if these are meant to be the same, they should be standardized to whichever is correct
The byline in the source states "By Sports Network"? But it does appear to be a pr outfit releasing the info - I changed it to "agency" but if that's not right, I would be OK if you just tweak that one as you see fit. --MTBW
OK, @Nikkimaria: got almost all, still nitpicking over the "press release" question. Given that there are multiple ways to do it, just give me the one you want used and I'll do it that way. Montanabw(talk)16:04, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by MONGO
Ran checklinks bot and the silly thing made the PDF notations in the refs all caps, but as stated above, I think those things should be lower case. Anyway, it tagged one cite as dead but since I'm temporarily stuck using a very portable device....I couldn't see which ref it tagged as dead. Anyway, added a few non-breaking spaces. The only thing so far, and maybe this was discussed elsewhere, and though of very inconsequential importance...any reason to not link to Lazarus of Bethany or Lazarus syndrome when mentioning the after-fouling nickname "Lazarus"?
Made them all lower case again, kept the fix you actually made. Checked links again, nothing came up dead for me, and I fixed the one Nikkimaria found the other day. Damn machines...love 'em when I'm creating articles, hate 'em at FAC. Montanabw(talk)20:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the Lazarus link, but I'm absolutely certain that phrases like "2.5 lengths" and "50 percent" do not require a non-breaking space - that only applies when an abbreviated unit follows a numeral (see MOS:NBSP section Use). However, the redirects that checklink found are good (even if it piped them inaccurately): quarter crack and morning line go to the right places and are preferred over the piped versions (see MOS:NOPIPE). I'd definitely change those two. --RexxS (talk) 23:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, indeed, every day of the week and twice on Sundays. A existing redirect like quarter crack means that the wikitext is more readable and should an article eventually be spun off on the subject, it replaces the redirect and you don't have to update your links in this article. Whoever has been pushing you in the other direction needs to think through what they have been advocating. --RexxS (talk) 18:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support listing as a featured article. I've been back and forth through the article in both read and editing mode and see virtually no room for improvements. Article is comprehensive and generally neutral...though there is the slightest lean towards the promotional, but it's very slight and nearly imperceptible. This article is amongst our best.--MONGO14:11, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from ColonelHenry
Currently reading the article, and will be adding comments shortly. I anticipate supporting this, as after a few quick readings of the article can assert that I think it to be Montanabw's best equine article to date. Standby.--ColonelHenry (talk) 13:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I await your comments, but don't forget to also give credit to @Tigerboy1966: who did the massive cleanup of the earlier version that launched my efforts here, and I also could not have gotten very far had not @Froggerlaura: bailed me out by starting the chart and finding free use images! All mistakes, however, are mine, all mine! Montanabw(talk)03:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
CRITERIA 1:(standby) After several read-throughs, and seeing a lot of the nitpicking/revision comments were sufficiently addressed above, I can assert that in my estimation, this article is sufficiently meets the criteria of 1A, 1B, and 1C, in that the article is well-written, engaging, and high quality and comprehensive in its scope, and the depth of sources indicates that it is well-researched and satisfies the demands of WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:CITE. 1D: The article does not show any indication of POV or bias and is a neutral biography of a wonderful horse; and per 1E: I do not see any indication that the article has been the subject of edit warring or content disputes.
CRITERIA 2: - 2A: I think the lede conforms with WP:LEDE and provides a good introduction to the article content. 2B: I believe the layout and structure of the article, and its TOC is appropriate. 2C: Citations appear properly formatted and consistent.
CRITERIA 3: Nikkimaria, who is known to be thorough with image use issues and reviews accordingly, did an image review above and gave the "all clear", so I'm satisfied regarding the WP:IUP/WP:NFC/copyright issues. As for captions, the two image captions are succinct and informative and in keeping with the WP:CAPTION.
CRITERIA 4: I think the article is of appropriate length, and adequately balances informative detail and summary style.
I am glad to SUPPORT this wonderful article for promotion to FA status. I apologise for the delay in completing my review of the article, sadly, real life outside wiki calls.--ColonelHenry (talk) 12:45, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, damn I wish equibase would create stable links from the get go! Arrgh! Fixed --MTBW
Is there an article for the Anoakia Stakes?
No, it's not a graded stakes race any more, just a "listed stakes" - it used to be a Grade III way back, but not any more. [5] WP Horse racing's notability cutoff for an article is usually Graded Stakes Races only, and even then the Grade III races are lowest on the priority list for creation--MTBW
Is it known whether the Stronach interest is a majority or minority stake?
Nope, the sources all say "undisclosed" (which I had in there at one point, it has disappeared, should it be restored?) they make a big deal about how the horse is staying with his team and racing with Reeves' silks, so either it's a minority interest or they negotiated the deal for the horse to stay with his current crew, but we don't know which, they are very hush-hush about it. --MTBW
Where were the first and second races into which he was entered?
The first race he actually ran is in the chart, but not the scratch; I added Calder to the narrative. Does that clarify? --MTBW
'Cause of the Seabiscuit connection - people noted that Stevens had co-starred with Banks in the movie. Would you prefer coincidence? Feel free to tweak that as you see fit. --MTBW
Closing comment -- I'll be promoting this shortly but note that I spotted a few duplinks with Ucucha's checker, so just have a look and see if you really need them. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:40, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The cutthroat trout (Oncorhynchus clarki), although closely related to the rainbow trout, is not globally ubiquitous like the rainbow and is not subject to extensive commercial aquaculture. The cutthroat has not been widely introduced outside of its native range. It is a complex species with many subspecies and is to a large extent, a bell weather species for ecosystem health in the Western U.S. It is one of the big four recreational trout species in the U.S.—Brook, Brown, Rainbow and Cutthroat trout. Many of the lessons learned from the rainbow trout FAC have been applied to the Cutthroat trout article. It just completed an extensive peer review and achieved GA status on: February 3, 2014 --Mike Cline (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Well written and researched account, with a wide range of sources, some of which go back to 1836. Excellent! -- Sparks my interest and makes me want to take up fly fishing. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Map caption shouldn't end in period; lead caption shouldn't include forced break
fixed
File:Trout_cutthroat_fish_oncorhynchus_clarkii_clarkii.jpg should use PD-USGov (or more specific template) rather than PD-author
License changed to PD-USGov-FWS
File:Bonneville_cutthroat.jpg is sourced to itself - is there an original source?
Could not find original source, so swapped out with new image
File:Yellowstone_Cutthroat_Trout.jpg is tagged as lacking author info
Can't seem to locate any tags on any of the three Yellowstone cutthroat images re lack of author. They list either agencies or unknown for the author. ??? --Mike Cline (talk) 15:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Oncorhynchus_clarkii_virginalis.jpg: source link is dead
Could not find original image, swapped out with new image
File:AnglersYellowstone-Haynes1897.jpg needs US PD tag and author date of death
This image is in the template:trouts not this article. It looks like it was originally uploaded from a NOAA source in 2005 (1st link in source line). As the NOAA source credited FWS, the license was changed to PD-USGov-FWS. Additional links on the source line are to FWS sites. The table that shows history cannot be edited (as far as I can see) thus the comment re NOAA is just that, a comment. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:55, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Jim
Just a couple of points before I support
As this hybrid generally bears similar coloration and overall appearance to the cutthroat trout, retaining the characteristic orange-red slash, these hybrids often pose a taxonomic difficulty. Singular or plural? Clunky either way
Unclunked the text with this rewording: This hybrid generally bears similar coloration and overall appearance to the cutthroat trout, generally retaining the characteristic orange-red slash. Cutbow hybrids often pose a taxonomic difficulty when trying to distinguish any given specimen as a rainbow or cutthroat trout.
Support I replaced the second "generally" in the sentence (a word you are inclined to overuse, looking at the text as a whole), no other queries, nice work Jimfbleak - talk to me?06:15, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Will be making a pass through over next day or so. I consider my 59 edits to this article to be mostly minor, and a distant second to Mike Cline's 500 plus edits.--MONGO04:03, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support listing as a featured article. I combed though the article in read mode and edit mode and I see no blemishes of note. Ran citation bot which adjusted one reference. Looks good to me...nice job!--MONGO16:58, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notes
I think we still need a source review -- if none of the reviewers so far can take that, Mike pls add a request at the top of WT:FAC.
Requested
Also, the last para before Pyramid Lake Lahontan subspecies fishery appears largely unsourced -- it should at least finish with a citation. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 17 to support: Native in western Nevada. Is designated as threatened (1975). Added eastern California in article text and date is correct to 1975 per cited ref.
Ref 26 to support: Native to the Arkansas and South Platte Rivers in eastern Colorado; it is designated as threatened (1978). supported by cited ref, date correct. May need to be tweaked to say mountains and foothills of Colorado instead of eastern Colorado....but that's minor.
reworded slightly to clarify
Ref 43 to support: Although cutthroat trout are not native to Arizona, they are routinely introduced by the Arizona Game and Fish Department into high mountain lakes in the White Mountains in the northeastern region of that state. is supported by ref cited.
Ref 48 to support: Coastal cutthroat trout feed in salt water on crustaceans and fishes while in fresh water they consume aquatic insects and crustaceans, frogs, earthworms, fishes, fish eggs, salamanders, etc....appears to be identical wording as cited ref so it must be in quotes or completely rephrased....also, the etc. needs to go as that is not encyclopedic unless you put it in quotes.
reworded plus additional citation
Ref 57 and 63 to support: However, aggressive lake trout eradication programs have killed over one million lake trout since 1996, and the hope is that this will lead to a restoration of cutthroat numbers. looks fine...simple math need to reach the million if using reference 63...but checks out.
Added quotation to citation to support.
Ref 66 is an ISBN available?
included
Refs 67 and 68: are there authors available?
Fixed, authors were already in citation, but it was formatted incorrectly
Nice article, well-written and beautifully illustrated. I can't find any issues that the earlier reviewers missed, so I'm happy to support. Good luck. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The "Great Zapper War", one reviewer put it. The Menacer is a light gun that Sega produced in response to the Nintendo Super Scope during the early 90s. As for how "great" the war was, Sega didn't support the gun from the get-go and the peripheral floundered. While in Paris shortly after leaving Sega, the Menacer's creator saw a pile of the item in an electronics store and offered to autograph them. He was told he could autograph every one he buys. This article was the last link in the Sega Genesis featured topic and related discussions led me to propose its merger. Consensus leaned towards merge, but I was intrigued by the suggestion of offline sources. I do enjoy a good personal challenge. The result is the most complete and direct retrospective ever written about this light gun and its place in Sega's history. czar♔04:19, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by comment: There are a few mid-sentence citations. I didn't object to this for GAN, but it's been known to come up at FACs before. You can just stick them after the next comma or period in each case. Tezero (talk) 05:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the heads up. If any specific citation is considered confusing as phrased, I'd be happy to clarify. The mid-sentence cites are used to source specific language and I believe abide by all guidelines. czar♔05:53, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Czar. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll admit, you got me on the merger discussions with this one, that's for sure. That being said, I certainly don't mind that considering what it's become, and I'd be glad to throw in my help in helping it to reach FA status. As a note to FAC delegates, I am not a significant contributor to this article.
If "Menacer 6-game cartridge" is the official title of the pack-in game, it needs to be italicized in all uses.
The break between the first and second paragraphs under "Games" doesn't seem to make sense, since the second paragraph continues about more games which the first one ends on.
Is there anything to be said about the Menacer's decline and lack of success? This differs from the reception section's critical commentary, and probably would be a worthwhile plug into the Development section, which in itself feels a little thin (especially the last paragraph). Sales figures or comments about it being a commercial failure that are sourced would be helpful.
The note about the Radica knockoff seems out of place in the Reception section. I'll leave it up to you on how you'd like to handle it, but I have two suggestions: 1. Given the suggestion above about expanding on Menacer's development and history, Development could be reformatted into a History and the Radica note could be tagged there, or if there are more creations, 2. Create a new subsection underneath reception as a "revival" section, but that isn't practical if that's the only one so far.
Image review
File:Menacer_six-game_cartridge_screenshots.png - Are all six of these from the 6-game cartridge? The reason I ask is because there's a good chance there may be six different copyrights if not, and still possible even if so, and that's probably not going to fly with WP:NFCC. I would suggest to be on the safe side to go down to a screenshot of just one of the games.
The other three images all look fine. I don't have any concerns with the two light gun images, as they do appear to be user created and the right information seems to be put into place. The Genesis image is an Evan-Amos, one I'm familiar with in my work on Sega consoles, so I know that's good.
Source review - spot-checks not done
I have no concerns with source reliability at all here. All of the sources appear to be reliable, including from sources listed at WP:VG/S.
Formatting looks good, but some of the web-obtained sources don't have retrieved dates, specifically a few from the subscription services. Do you have these to plug in just to keep this uniform?
Thanks, RP. From all of the sources I've read, I can only remember AllGame (for purposes of cataloging) and that Digital Spy article referencing the six-pack like it had its own title. The rest did not refer to it as a standalone Cartridge but as a bundled cartridge with no distinct title. I kept "6-game" instead of "six-game" and lowercased the "cartridge" for this reason, but I can change it if someone has better logic. The ¶ break was for readability—I've removed it. The only published commentary on Menacer post-release was opinion-based and included in the reception. There was no formal announcement of discontinuation or something to the effect of a "decline" (well, you know, the launch was the decline). Since the Radica was the one-off "legacy" section, I thought it fit best wrapped into the reception. If there is more "legacy" in the future, the section can break out, but I think it makes more sense there than in a history or development section. The screenshots are all from the six-game cartridge and should be registered as part of the same single unit. Since the minigames receive individual commentary, I thought it followed to picture each individually. Which web sources are missing retrieved dates? I double-checked but they all appear to be there. If a database-retrieved ref is an offline source in its own right and the completely paywalled direct URL would serve no good, I left the ref unlinked. czar♔04:40, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the quick response. Here's my take on some of this so far: in regards to the 6-game screenshot, I'm still concerned. However, I'd like to ask for a second opinion. If someone like Crisco 1492, an expert image reviewer, could stop by, that would be awesome. I'd like someone with more experience in copyright than I to take a look. If most sources don't refer to the 6-game cartridge as its official title, I'm good with no italics. I still worry a little bit that the Development reads a little awkwardly with its short paragraphs and there's not much "development" in it; actually, as I read Reception, the last two paragraphs I think kind of play into its "history" and could go together with that section as well—I do know what you mean on the difficulty of video game hardware that launches and declines right away, Sega Nomad is a great example of one. In regard to the paywalled sources, those would be what I was referring to because they were retrieved from Internet services, even if they are print. Even if it is paywalled, I don't see why the link wouldn't serve any good—certainly there will periodically be readers coming across the article who have subscriptions to the services listed and would like to read the article, but the absence of these URLs is not a deal breaker to me and I wouldn't oppose on the basis of not having them. Red Phoenixlet's talk...01:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. I left a note on Masem's talk for a vg editor opinion on the non-free image. Do you have a suggestion for the dev section? I still don't think a rearrangement for a history section would be expedient based on the two sentences that also fit in Reception. I suppose we'll see what others think. czar♔01:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure I could whip one up on my sandbox given some time. I'm a little busy right now in real life at least through the week, but I think I could take a stab at it and show some nice results. Red Phoenixlet's talk...02:04, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My gut feeling is that all 6 are too many given how non-notable the games are and how little it generally devoted to the gameplay. Two or three, the ones that best exemplify the gameplay involving a lightgun, as well as the general quality of the graphics for that system, may be the better option. --MASEM (t) 03:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with the amount of screenshots, but would much prefer you just fired up an emulator and took screenshots instead of using a poor quality magazine scan. - hahnchen04:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Six is okay, as long as it is a collage (like this) as it helps show the "range" of such games. However, I agree that it needs to be 1) clearer (with an emulator, perhaps) and 2) smaller... no need to go 900 px tall. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:50, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you do use an emulator, I really recommend Fusion, in TV Mode (CVBS) with Filtering enabled. That way it looks 100% accurate as to how the game would actually look played on a TV. (I have compared this on my TV switching between a console input and my PC input).--SexyKick09:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Replacing lossless PNG with a lossy JPG because you're not a fan of Wikipedia's current thumbnail generator seems short sighted. - hahnchen01:41, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, image use policy was what I was looking for. I read what MoS said about jpeg and gave up right there. I could have sworn PNG was for software screenshots, but I couldn't find the policy. I wasn't going to say something without a policy to back me up, so I just let it be. Thanks!--SexyKick04:27, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: Last question, otherwise I'm ready to support: Do you have any more in regards to Mac Senour's finding of the unsold stock or information on the Menacer in 1994? I ask for two reasons: 1. right now the detail of Mac Senour finding the unsold stock seems awkward and out of perspective and could use clarification as to why this is relevant; was it unsold because it wasn't selling well, or just because they had a bunch? Does it say something about the success of the Menacer, at least in Senour's eyes? This can be accomplished by adding a cited quote if you have one. 2. From the chart of game release dates, it's apparent that there are games into 1994 for Menacer, but the detail stops at 1993 with the EGM note and restarts in 2005 with the Radica Games release. Maybe it's as simple as saying there were those one or two releases that used the Menacer in 1994, and that will again help with completeness of the article and the section. Red Phoenixlet's talk...00:13, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There has been no other comment by Mac Senour in sources reliable or unreliable, nor from the rest of the staff. I liked his anecdote as an open question—most things that die out don't have extended commentary on why they died out. Updated history with a single line about the last known released games (while avoiding OR), as recommended. Thanks for your help czar♔05:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I've done a hair of reorganization, if you don't mind, in light of the missing detail from Mac. I've read the interview article over; he really doesn't say much more than that, but I went ahead and slipped in the bit about him being told he could autograph each one he signed, and separated Senour's info from the console history as a whole for the paragraphs to flow better. Red Phoenixlet's talk...14:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Well done! czar, I really have to give you credit for this one. I wouldn't have believed it could ever be this good. All of my nitpicky concerns have now been addressed and I'm ready to lend it my full support. Red Phoenixlet's talk...14:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Tezero
"though Will Smith of The Hawk Eye estimated fewer" - How much fewer?
"These two peripherals led to arcade light gun game ports for home consoles" - Is this relevant for the first paragraph of the body text?
Less strikingly, is the first paragraph at all relevant to its section?
"The Menacer has no power switch and automatically activates when aimed at the television,[8] and powers down after 30 seconds without input.[3]" - A little awkward; I'd put it down like "The Menacer has no power switch; it automatically activates when aimed at the television[8] but powers down after 30 seconds without input.[3]"
"Sega did not plan any other first-party releases for the Menacer. Senour recollected that "they laughed when I proposed more."" - Not major, but I'd separate these by semicolon rather than period.
"GamePro reported its release to be in late October,[6][15] but Mean Machines wrote that the Menacer was released in December.[5]" - I'd prefer something like "The Menacer was released between October and December" or "The Menacer was released in the fall of 1992".
The first paragraph of Games is a bit long. I'd suggest either trimming it to two-thirds its current length or putting the games in bullet-point format. (This isn't forbidden if used sparingly.)
Reception could use a few topic sentences. As it stands, it has the stilted air of being organized by reviewer, even though for the most part it isn't.
That's about it. Sources and images look acceptable, and the article's plenty complete and reads well for the most part. Nice job; I wasn't sure this article would even stay sovereign at first. Tezero (talk) 01:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. You've improved the article in ways I didn't even suggest but that are nonetheless helpful, and I'm now comfortable ranking it among the best Wikipedia offers. Tezero (talk) 04:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am just about ready to voice my support of this article myself, but I was wondering if you saw our recent comments about the PNG for software screenshots thing?--SexyKick15:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@SexyKick: Yep, but I thought it wasn't actionable. I had tried both the PNG and JPG shots and the JPG looked materially better. We called Crisco in as an image expert, so I went with their suggestion for now. I can always swap formats from the original PSD in the future, if need be. czar ♔16:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think Crisco just wasn't aware of the "png for software screenshots" codex. That's the only outstanding issue in my mind. So...
Behold, one of the least respected Pokémon games around, and potentially the first FA to actually include "Pokémon" in its name! I began work on this article in late January, when I'd just returned from semi-retirement. It passed GAN and completed a peer review the following month, so here's its final step. All comments are welcome. Tezero (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Drive by comment by Chris857
"Leeper claimed that 'will be content much longer than you will' and..." - this isn't making grammatical sense to me, and I'm not sure what it is trying to say. Chris857 (talk) 20:39, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why is Chao mentioned in the gameplay? How is it useful to anyone without specialist knowledge of the Sonic series? I've played Sonic, and have no idea what Chao are, the general reader is going to be even more perplexed.
If I run down Metacritic's reviews, quite a lot of them mention how it's a kids' game or aimed at children. You mention it's rated E, and a 1UP review mentions five year olds, but I would expect more on the kids' response.
I couldn't find any earlier, but now I see some forum posts remarking that it got a 31/40 from Famitsu. I'm currently digging about for that review. Tezero (talk) 18:23, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also, digging through old Famitsu articles, I found another piece of Japanese sales info. Still nothing at all for American sales, though. Tezero (talk) 18:56, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize that I took so long to come look at this, I've finally gone through and read the article over and have a few things I've noticed. Everything else seems great to me.
For the purpose of future-proofing and avoiding Link rot, I would recommend you add archives of all the web citations you include in the article. I've done this on Team Fortress Classic, for example. The cite web template has a few parameters for including archived references. A lot of featured articles lose their featured article status over time due to link rot, and that'd be fairly unfortunate for this.
Half-Life 2: Lost Coast, an article already considered "Featured", has quotes from the game's developer commentary in a "Notes" section rather than a "References" section. Since you use a lot of quotes from the game itself, I figured I'd point this out. I'm not sure if that's Wikipedia policy, but I personally think it looks better and is easier to read through. I would recommend using superscripted "a", "b", etc. instead of "N 1", "N 2", etc. as Lost Coast does, however.
It's not standard, and I notice that the quotes used in Lost Coast are quite lengthy. I'll still do it if you want, though, as this article does cite a fairly high number of quotes. Not sure if that'll change how much has to be cited in each quote, though. Tezero (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the lead is the following sentence: "Upon release, it sold rather poorly—66,373 copies in its first year—and received mixed reviews[...]". I think modifying the parenthetical to say "only 66, 373 copies" or something similar may be preferable. I don't completely like the use of "only", and can't think of anything better, so I'll leave the change up to you.
In the "Development and release" section, there's the following line:
IGN writer Anoop Gantayat called this effect "cool", although he did note some minor graphical issues visible in the transition from distanced to full-screen viewing.
I would recommend changing this, as "cool" doesn't seem like a particularly noteworthy quote to have mentioned in the prose of the article.
In the first part of the "Reception" section, dates are mentioned but no year is given for context. This is a bit odd, as it also says "[Pokemon Channel] has sold 66,373 copies as of December 28.", which implies that the game came out this year due to the usage of "has". I can probably fix this quite easily, so if it's changed by the time you read this that'd be why.
In the second-to-last sentence of the "Reception" section, there's a sentence which says only "Tokyodrifter thought similarly." I think it would be best if this was extended by changing it to "Tokyodrifter thought similarly, stating *quote here*." or something similar.
Assuming these are fixed, I can add my support to the article, albeit noting that I have done some minor copyediting to the article previously. Again, great job on this article! --Nicereddy (talk) 04:08, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'll get to these tomorrow, as I'm finishing up the skeleton of a new Sonic character article and then I've got to get my eyes away from the computer before they start bleeding. Thanks for reviewing, though! Your comments all seem fair, although as for link rot, my impression is that any dead link can be archived after it goes bad, except for those with "robots.txt" files, which run into similar archive problems after the fact. Does that make a difference? Tezero (talk) 04:25, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. Once a link dies, assuming it wasn't archived prior to the site going down, it's not retrievable. Robots.txt just prevents it from being archived whatsoever. Archival requires that the site currently be up the second at which you request it to be archived. I've been surprised by the amount of GameSpot articles which I was the first to archive, so I try to archive as many as I can just in case the site were to ever go down. As for articles which are already archived, it's just easier if you add it now and include "dead link=no", that way it can easily be replaced if the site ever went down. --Nicereddy (talk) 04:43, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I meant retrieved after it goes bad; generally sites I use are archived by web.archive.org - some can't be, though, which is why I avoid using video reviews and interviews or graphics-intensive sites. But yeah, I guess I'll get to that. Tezero (talk) 04:58, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I did as well, I've had to manually retrieve GameSpot and IGN articles for archive.org, and I was the first one to do so. I've archived at least two dozen articles over the past month in my Valve sweep. --Nicereddy (talk) 05:14, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The 1UP articles may be gone forever. That's not too bad here, as only a review is cited, and only for one sentence in Reception, so it can be easily removed. How should I go about archiving the rest, though? (Ugh. Can't bots do this?) Tezero (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if bots can do it, as I'd imagine someone would have done so by now if it was possible. I can go through right now and see if I can get archives of them all, it's not too difficult once you've gotten used to doing it, as I've done it on 10~ pages already. --Nicereddy (talk) 19:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! As for Allgame, I doubt this would be reliable, but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about screencapping the review and putting it on Imgur or something? Tezero (talk) 20:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Should I proactively try to switch in references that could stand in for Allgame in the non-Reception prose, or do I have your support? Tezero (talk) 21:47, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's perfectly fine, as they're only a few references and I requested it primarily out of fear of sites going down in the far future, not necessity at present or in the near future. --Nicereddy (talk) 23:49, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I will note that I've contributed to this article in the form of copyediting as well as archival of references. Regardless, I hope this doesn't make my support worth any less. The article covers all bases I would expect of an article on a video game, and goes further in specific items relating to the game, such as the e-Reader. The article is written from a neutral perspective, not overly negative nor positive towards the topic. The article is on a game released more than a decade ago, and is therefore not the subject of any notable editing conflicts, and the topic is unlikely to change with much significance in the future. The article's prose is of expected quality for a featured article and the grammar lacks any mistakes, at least that I could find in my multiple sweeps through the article. The references all follow the same structure and cite sources which have been deemed legitimate by the Video games WikiProject. The game, given its general lack of notability in comparison to that of other Nintendo titles, is vastly better than I would have expected.
Resolved responses to the review have been moved to the talk page
Please respond below the review and I'll hat my bullets after your reply. Some questions are rhetorical and I'm not expecting answers here but clarification in the article.
The intro sentence is precious—why waste space with "Together with Pikachu" twice?
Lede could use some more beef in the development, release, and reception departments, perhaps a sentence of the latter and former, and is there a specific reason for excluding the full release date?
{{Video game release}} formatting is looking wonky with its line spacing. I don't know what's going on there, but a different format might help
|media= is only for platforms where the media can be ambiguous
"among the network's channels": what network?
"their house": who is they?
I don't know whether the show titles should be italicized. They might be better in quotes or plain title case since they're not real shows
"art that can be created elsewhere": this is unclear
What's going on with the commented out text in Gameplay?
Consider using list-defined refs in the future—would make me more inclined to give a thorough copyedit
"When it arrives the next morning": when what arrived? the new or the old?
Significance of the inclusion of Meowth's Party?
"for which the device is intended": the device or the projector?
Did the devs know it was bad?
Does the development of Meowth's Party have anything to do with the development of this game? Meowth's Party might be best merged somewhere such as this section, if so
"new templates": template for what?
"was unusual at the time": citation needed
"the abstract cries": clarify
"Its development was rather rapid": source doesn't say this, removed
What is the imperative to add the ratings? I haven't seen that usually done
If the release dates are adequately sourced here, the footnotes should be removed from the infobox
April date should include the year if it isn't the same as the others—not obvious that it's the following year unless it is explicitly indicated (and sourced) as the last release
"thirteenth best-selling game": is this for that single week or for all GCN games ever's release weeks?
"Overall, the title": over where? the world?
There's a lingering, commented-out 1up review in the Reception
Watch out for OR in the reception: "principal complaint"? Let the reviews speak for themselves
Punctuation in quotations was messed up in this section. Whomever wrote it may be interested in reading through the MOS on how the logical/British quotation works
Reviewers should not be named without their publication because they're not characters to be remembered. Whenever someone reads a surname, they'll be trying to link it with the publication, so save the work
A number of quotes here can be paraphrased in non-quoted language
What's up with "Tokyo Drifter"? Is this person a real GamePro staff member? What's the deal?
"limited praise to": qualify? better described with the author's words than in potential OR
"agreed that they are limited": cl
"the Pokémon Mini play": cl
Yeah, a number of these Reception quotes can go
{{Video game reviews}} does not meet its documentation's rules: too many sources listed, shouldn't mention sources unmentioned in the prose
Speaking of this, where are the print sources?
Haven't done source or media check
Good work. Give me a ping when these are addressed and I'll respond and do a source review. I'm also looking for feedback on the Menacer FAC, for those interested. czar♔06:57, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The intro sentence is precious—why waste space with "Together with Pikachu" twice?
Lede could use some more beef in the development, release, and reception departments, perhaps a sentence of the latter and former, and is there a specific reason for excluding the full release date?
It should be explained since it's the first mention in the prose ♔
"their house": who is they?
Singular they; the player. I'm not a huge fan of this wording, but it's common among Wikipedia articles of all quality ratings. I've changed it to "the player's", but this seems even worse. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The way to avoid this would be establishing that the player is in a house beforehand and just refer to it as "the house" ♔
"art that can be created elsewhere": this is unclear
Needs more—what kind of art is this? Paint by numbers? This is the place to explain ♔
Significance of the inclusion of Meowth's Party?
It's important because it's shown at the end of the game and, as media for the projector, is part of the player's reward for beating the game. I mention it earlier as it appears earlier. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then it's worth establishing why it's significant, no? Right now it's just a name in a list ♔
Does the development of Meowth's Party have anything to do with the development of this game? Meowth's Party might be best merged somewhere such as this section, if so
A different discussion, but it may be worth merging into Space World or GameCube unless there are other sources for it ♔
"new templates": template for what?
Outlined drawings - the things Smeargle gives you. I agree that "new templates" isn't the best wording, but I'm unsure how to rephrase it. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This goes with the previous comment that the "art" component should be explained in more depth, if it's worth including at all ♔
"was unusual at the time": citation needed
The full quote: "The game uses a cool effect where it applies video footage to a polygon, allowing you to view a video program on the television monitor while watching Pikachu go crazy. Viewing the video full screen results in some artifacts, but most of the programming is done using polygons anyway, so you probably won't notice the difference too much." Is there a way to rephrase my summary of this so it doesn't sound like OR? Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't say it's novel or unusual, so you can't say that in the prose or the lede. I say strike it ♔
I know what a Pokémon cry is, but you have to assume a reader wouldn't. These review questions are more rhetorical—you have to assume the perspective of someone unfamiliar ♔
"Its development was rather rapid": source doesn't say this, removed
Still would be OR unless the RS says it, no? I'd stick with the "five-months" or whatever it is and let the reader conclude from the relayed facts that it's a speedy development ♔
What is the imperative to add the ratings? I haven't seen that usually done
It happens sometimes; it makes some sense in context due to the game's unusually nonexistent amount of violent content. Should they go? Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I say so—they don't add much ♔
"thirteenth best-selling game": is this for that single week or for all GCN games ever's release weeks?
Consider putting the review info before the sales data in the paragraph ♔
There's a lingering, commented-out 1up review in the Reception
I know. 1UP went online again recently after a period of inactivity, but since it uses the infamous robots.txt file it can't be archived. Should I remove it? Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The site's back up, no? I wouldn't let that stop you and would include it until it goes dead forever. There were some other archive techniques mentioned in the WTVG thread. ♔
Watch out for OR in the reception: "principal complaint"? Let the reviews speak for themselves
Punctuation in quotations was messed up in this section. Whomever wrote it may be interested in reading through the MOS on how the logical/British quotation works
Reviewers should not be named without their publication because they're not characters to be remembered. Whenever someone reads a surname, they'll be trying to link it with the publication, so save the work
I've seen numerous GAs and FAs do this, and a past FAC of mine actually took it as a strike against the article that the reviewers were not repeatedly referred to by name rather than publication. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do you remember which one? I can see a reviewer asking to not refer to a whole source instead of a single reviewer, but as long as it's "X mag's Joe Smith" I don't think it should be a problem. This can be rephrased creatively, but my point is that the surnames by themselves don't help me ♔
A number of quotes here can be paraphrased in non-quoted language
What's up with "Tokyo Drifter"? Is this person a real GamePro staff member? What's the deal?
That's what the source says. I know it's a professional review by them, as it was linked by Metacritic and has no spelling or grammar errors or fancruft to indicate that it was a fan's work. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still uncomfortable with it, but nothing worth holding over ♔
I think I took out a couple. There aren't many, though, and where I do use them, I think they appropriately break up monotony of the text. Tezero (talk) 19:21, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I had edited most out, but I just wanted to point it out for the future ♔
Original quote: "The graphics are suitably bright and colorful, although overall locations are somewhat limited." Ideas? Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Strike it. When reviewers use vague language like that, it means they aren't clear themselves ♔
No, not too detailed, just excessive with the direct quotes. Looks better but I haven't read closely yet ♔
{{Video game reviews}} does not meet its documentation's rules: too many sources listed, shouldn't mention sources unmentioned in the prose
Added something from Nintendo Power. As for Famitsu, hahnchen insisted earlier that a Japanese reviewer be listed, but I can't find the original review or any promising leads to it. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Try asking around for the sources you need ♔
Speaking of this, where are the print sources?
Game Informer and Nintendo Power, but in the latter case I was only citing what Metacritic gave me. The game doesn't seem to have been very well documented in print sources. Tezero (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There's so much other coverage that I'm not going to linger on it, but it's worth a bit more digging methinks ♔
Responses to your issues, since you don't want me to reply in-line (I really wish I'd read through your comments top-to-bottom, as I have to move mine now):
Didn't find anything in the Shadow FAC noms. Anyway, I think you get where I'm coming from on the readability. I'm not going to hold up the nom, but I think this can be phrased to better relate the surnames to the sources ♔
The "rather than the cries" part isn't in the source, so it's worth ending that sentence after mentioning that they speak their own names like in the anime ♔
Re: Meowth's Party: I'm not sure what you mean by "a name in a list." The video's two mentions are both in regular prose, in sentences that aren't in list format, and the link doesn't redirect to a list. Tezero (talk) 20:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be an extraneous detail, shoehorned in, as in I don't see the significance of mentioning it (and it's kind of unclear how it ties in with Pichu Bros.) Anyway, it's not blocking my support, but it's worth considering ♔
@Czar:Sesu Prime (talk·contribs), whom I asked about Nintendo Power, doesn't have access to his issues. That said, neither of us seems to think the article is too lacking without them. What do you think of the article now? Tezero (talk) 22:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have an online acquaintance who might be able to dig it up—let me check. Also feel free to respond in-line—I just wanted to keep the original review intact. czar ♔02:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned on my talk page, that search was unsuccessful. I still think it'd help but I don't think the article suffers for completeness as is without it. I responded inline and feel free to respond inline below. czar ♔02:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the "lit." part in the lede if it's already said and bolded previously? ♔
Too many sources listed in {{vg reviews}} (I think it's supposed to be something like five or so? Check the documentation) ♔
The documentation mentions that most will need 5-6 reviews, but also that less variance in reviews equals less need. Channel received hugely varying reviews, ranging from 1/5 to 31/40. Tezero (talk) 02:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comma inside quotes in Reception second sentence—never goes inside on WP per British/logical quotation rules ♔
You're not going to repeat the mag names with the reviewer names, for clarity? ♔
"Leeper" is repeated as is, and I don't know the Nintendo Power writer's name as what's there just came from Metacritic. Tezero (talk) 02:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"The game was developed rather quickly": rephrase with the actual time frame ♔
Well, I don't know. IGN stated, on a date only a few months from its release, that its development wasn't very far along. Is that an OR-y enough statement that I should scrap it from the lead entirely? Tezero (talk) 02:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Since it's a single source and not a strong statement, I say stick with the facts. Five months or whatever it is should speak for itself. The time IGN estimated it took for them to make the demo doesn't mean the game was developed quickly, but the five months time frame does ♔
Is first mention of "network" a "television" network? Would be worth clarifying that first time ♔
"Small house" doesn't appear to be mentioned in the article.
I actually can't find a single source that actually mentions the house being small; it was just deemed necessary somewhere in this FAC (I'm too lazy to look) that I had to say this. Nonetheless, the sources talk about exploring the one room and the outdoor environments with no acknowledgements of further rooms in the house (e.g. "Additionally, you're also able to leave the confines of your room--if Pikachu will let you--so that you can explore your front and backyards."). I'm not sure what to do. Tezero (talk) 03:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
House doesn't have to be "small"—the mention before was about how the text assumed the reader knew the game was in a house. I didn't see the house mentioned at all in this article (just rooms). Did I miss it or is it worth quoting a different review? ♔
It's late and I'm not about to spend ages looking for a mention of that. If I were to remove it, though, how could I? Tezero (talk) 04:54, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't spend ages but since it's the basic setting for the game, it'd be worth mentioning (and citing from a source that supports it) ♔
Why is this used as a source for the game taking place over several days? It doesn't appear to be mentioned.
Removed. Now that I look, I don't think the other two sources note the game taking place over a few days, either, although there are cited plot points that establish a few individual mornings. Tezero (talk) 03:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
He didn't say "detailed and pleasing" but "better"
Support. After the diligent tweaks, I believe this article meets the FA standards and is the single best resource on the web for this ostensibly steaming pile of Pokémon. Job well done. czar ♔12:39, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"The collectibles can be found by having Pikachu speak with other Pokémon and help them with tasks,[6]" - source says you just answer trivia questions.
"five others previously released for the real-life Pokémon Mini (three of them as part of its Pokémon Party Mini title).[10]" - source just lists 5 games for the Mini, it says nothing about those games being in Pokemon Channel.
I had the Amazon page for Pokémon Party Mini or something, but it was determined that those aren't reliable and I never found a replacement. Eh, it's not a particularly useful fact anyway, so I just removed it. Tezero (talk) 22:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support as nominator. I don't really see the point of this practice, but it seems to help nominations and I've gotten very little feedback lately considering that the users who haven't given their support also don't have any outstanding complaints left. Tezero (talk) 15:35, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Tezero: You might want to just mention all their usernames in this thread, or comment on their Talk pages. I'm guessing they've just lost this page in their sea of Watchlisted articles, I've done that frequently and my Watchlist isn't even particularly lengthy. --Nicereddy (talk) 16:51, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Declarations of support by nominators don't actually count when it comes to determining consensus to promote, it's assumed you wouldn't bring it to FAC unless you believed it worthy. Don't panic, there is enough recent activity and enough support to make it worth keeping open a bit longer as far as I'm concerned. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:04, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN: I hate to bother you again, but are you satisfied with the changes I made? I don't want the nomination to get archived for a silly reason like not getting enough feedback from reviewers. Tezero (talk) 15:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The above was just a source review, not a full review, but after reading through the article and checking the changes made in response to the other reviewers I'm fine with supporting this one now. --PresN02:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support: Looks mostly good to me (although I don't do much work above C-class articles and this is my first FAC discussion, so not sure how much my say matters in this), but the primary references are a big block to me: 36 (by my count) out of 58 are directly from the game itself. Two smaller issues: There's quite a few simple sentences (I combined a few, but copyediting's not my forte, feel free to revert if need be), and the article never says what a Pokémon cry is (I've got no idea how to add that in without it being really awkward). Supernerd11:DFiremind^_^Pokedex00:31, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the primary references are there to verify the plot. It's not universal, but it's common among plot sections for games. Your copyedits look fine. As for the cries, I agree that that'd be nice to mention (and there was something there before), but it'd also be WP:OR. Thanks for your support, though, and tell me if you come up with any more issues. Tezero (talk) 00:52, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since the first-party sources are fine for the plot, then I'm Supporting this for sure!
I thought it'd be easy, but the better part of an hour has only showed me this website to define a Pokemon cry so as to not violate WP:OR: <ref>{{cite web | title=What You Need to Know About the Pokemon PokeDex App for iOS | url=http://ds.about.com/od/nintendods101/a/What-You-Need-To-Know-About-The-Pokemon-Pokedex-App-For-Ios.htm | author=Nadia Oxford | publisher=About.com}}</ref>. It's talked about everywhere, but nobody seems to want to explain what it is. Heck, I couldn't even find anything about it in the Emerald or FireRed/LeafGreen player's guides from Nintendo Power! This is probably the most frustrating part of Wikipedia: Knowing something, but not being able to find a source to back it up. Supernerd11:DFiremind^_^Pokedex02:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)Okay, rant's over :D[reply]
"In Japan, the game sold a meager 66,373 copies" - Calling it meager sounds like POV pushing without a perspective being defined. I'd just remove the meager part.
Reference 56, from Nintendo Power: Do we have an article title at all for where this comes from?
" Also unusual for the Pokémon video game series, the Pokémon's voices are lifted from the anime and sound like their names." - Are lifted? A different term might work better here, as "lifted" I feel is somewhat an improper term. Perhaps "borrowed" or "taken" might be a better word.
This article is about... Cyclone Joy that hit Queensland during December 1990 and was a part of both the 1990-91 South Pacific and Australian tropical cyclone seasons. Joy hit Queensland as a Category 4 severe tropical cyclone and caused around AU$31 million in damage. After researching the system and attempting to write it over the last few years, Hurricanehink wrote this article and has kindly allowed me to co-nominate this article. While both myself and Hink are Wikicup participants, we think that Joy wont be eligible for any points since it was mainly developed before the cup started.Jason Rees (talk) 22:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks User:Gnangarra! It was pretty minor, but I added that and a little else from that website. My search basically confirms that the article was comprehensive, as nothing major was added, but it's still good to add little tidbits here and there. :) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
happy it helped, my comment above was just an observation, not an opinion either way as to whether this article is FA ready. good luck Gnangarra07:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose at this time, but will happily strike once a much-needed copyedit is done: phrasings like "discharged about 18 trillion litre (4.9 trillion gallons) of discharge" and grammatical issues like "both north and south of equator" need to be resolved. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:49, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Struck, but I'm still seeing some obvious grammatical issues ("both north and south of equator"), and why are you using US English for an Australian storm? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:38, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How is that statement grammatically incorrect? And I reached out to the Australian Wikiproject for someone to assist in Australianizing it :) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's in line with the rest of the project though, even in the FA you wrote ;) See Cyclone Orson, Cyclone Rewa, and Cyclone Elita, by three different editors. It's just the standard we've largely adopted, and is the same that the National Hurricane Center does. I think WP:IAR applies nicely here, considering how many articles it would affect. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:35, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Except it doesnt apply here since the fix is SO EASY - get someone with access to a scripted programme to go through all of our articles and replace 0000 with 00:00. Also the project or a outside agency doesnt overrule the MoS.Jason Rees (talk) 02:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
After giving Hurricanehink a couple of days i spoke to him about this issue earlier and he allowed me to make the required change after a consensus was formed here.Jason Rees (talk) 03:48, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support, with the disclaimer that I've done some editing to the page, though mostly of a cosmetic nature. Seems to be a well-researched and thorough page with info presented concisely and professionally. – Juliancolton | Talk20:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support another well-written article by the WP:WPTC guys. One minor quibble however "Ultimately, over 1,000 people sought higher ground,[32] staying mainly at the house of friends or relatives, or at a nearby school." Shouldnt house be homes? Thanks Secretaccount17:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Question, is there a reason in the lede that you talk about Cairns without specifying its location, but then need to qualify the much larger city of Townsville as being in Queensland? Also, I'm not sure why when you say "A$60 million (1991 AUD)" you need to specify the year, what other year's AUD would they have been using in 1991? In response to the comment above about Australian English, as a native speaker of that dialect I can't see any blatant Americanisms, although I haven't gone through it with a fine tooth comb. Some examples might help the nominator? Lankiveil(speak to me)10:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC).[reply]
In response to the 1991 aud comment, i will say that both Hink and i have seen damage totals that are not in the year of the system. For example the World Bank is cited as giving a total of 18.5 mill 2000 USD, for Cyclone Sina of 1990.Jason Rees (talk) 11:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can see how it'd make sense in that situation where it's needed to clarify things, although I'm not sure it applies here since the year quoted is the same year as the event. I don't see how a reader could get confused if it were omitted. Lankiveil(speak to me)12:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC).[reply]
I clarified where Cairnes was in Queensland, and added a note that all totals were in 1990 AUD. This way it's clarified in a note, not via text, so it's cleaner. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm not going to actually make any nitpicks, since I've checked on the article many times over its history and it's gradually gotten better and is completely worthy of FA status. \o/ Great one, Hink! Cloudchased (talk) 02:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support; I see no reasons to oppose or withhold approval, as the article looks well-sourced, comprehensive, and comprehensible throughout. Tezero (talk) 02:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Source review
Is there any way of including page numbers for the newspaper references that were abtained via Lexis Nexis?
Either include the "format=PDF" parameter in all the {{cite journal}} templates or none of them. At the moment [1] include the parameter, but [2] does not.
Journal articles do not include their doi. This would be good, but is not a requirement (I'd recommend it though).
I have no idea how to find the DOI for the three journal articles in the article. None of them have it on their page. The first one does have an ISSN number, so I added that. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:11, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've found one [11], but have not tried to track down others. Doi's will not be in the original for older articles, but most journals have retrospectively added them. I'll leave you to dig for the others, and will strike the comment, but I think it'd be a valuable thing to do. -- Shuddetalk03:02, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about the famous 19th century Welsh rugby union player. Gould was probably the stand-out player of his time, and represented Wales 27 times – an enormous number in an age when Wales averaged two or three matches a year. His fame and popularity prompted a "testimonial" on his retirement -- he was gifted the deeds to a house -- however this caused significant conflict between rugby administrators of Wales and England over the issue of professionalism. We have spent about 6 months getting this article up to standard, and it benefited greatly from a peer review conducted late last year. We hope you enjoy the read, and welcome feedback and comments. -- Shuddetalk04:24, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
File:Arthur_Gould.jpg: what was Thiele's date of death?
File:Arthur_Gould,_Newport.jpeg: "This tag can be used only when the author cannot be ascertained by reasonable enquiry. If you wish to rely on it, please specify in the image description the research you have carried out to find who the author was"
File:Arthur_'Monkey'_Gould_portrait.jpg: why does rugby-pioneers have the right to release this image under a CC license? The markings on the photo itself suggest that another organization held the original copyright
Like File:Arthur_Gould_print.jpeg they believe it's PD (see [14]). However it looks like the image is from the page of a book (see [15]), and the image does seem to have been reproduced quite widely. If the copyright was held by "Hudson & Kearns London" then all I can find is this biography about one of Burgess family. However I think that it was only published by Hudson & Kearns, and that the copyright was held by "Siedle Bros" Photography (based in Newport). I think this is most likely, however I've not been able to find much out about the Siedle Bros other than the information here. So I'm not sure how to proceed. -- Shuddetalk10:27, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Wales_rugby_team_1895.jpg: the website is not the original author; the current tag requires the original author, their date of death, and a US PD tag
I have a book, The Who's Who of Welsh International Rugby Players (1991) which uses the exact same image. The only difference is the name in the bottom left hand corner. In the image we have it appears to say Lascelles (maybe connected to Welsh newspaper editor Henry Lascelles Carr?), though in the book image it seems to say D Jones & Co. The book credits the image to the 'Auty Collection'. FruitMonkey (talk) 11:27, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I emailed Frederic Humbert and look the photo was taken by "Symmons & Thule" (see [16]). However a google search has not uncovered any information at all about Symmons & Thule. I have updated the description page however. -- Shuddetalk09:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They don't have the rights, and say on their website that they believe it is in the public domain. I've updated the description page. -- Shuddetalk10:05, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I have not been able to determine the author. I contacted the person who scanned the image (from [17]) and he says there is no author information on the postcard. He has other versions of the postcard (for example [18]) but none have any author information. What do you think is the best course of action here? -- Shuddetalk11:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I participated in the peer review for this article, and felt it was close then. Looks even closer now:
I think it would be useful to note the date of his debut in the lead. ("After his debut in yyyy, he was never dropped....". It helps put the scope of his career in context.
In the paragraph about his brothers, you refer to Arthur as "he/his" in all cases but the one where you note Bob was capped 11 times for Wales. That makes it somewhat confusing as to who is actually being spoken of.
The paragraph about the 1890 Newport invincible season uses the word "season" seven times in extremely close succession. It becomes rather repetitive.
I would go with annoying and repetitive. I have removed three 'seasons', I hope this has not damaged the understanding of the paragraph. FruitMonkey (talk) 19:16, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At the very end, you refer to his brother as "Edward Wyatt Gould", but only as Wyatt in all other instances. I'd suggest removing "Edward" for consistency.
I'm very sorry not to have got to this sooner. I took part in the peer review for this article and am now pleased to be able to review it for FA. I'll jot down thoughts as I give it a fresh read-through.
Lead and infobox
We say in the infobox he died in Newport but not that he was born there
"He won 27 caps for Wales, 18 as captain, and critics consider him the first superstar of Welsh rugby" I would prefer "He won 27 caps for Wales, 18 as captain, and is often considered the first superstar of his sport". (He wasn't just a superstar of Welsh rugby, but of British rugby too)
The sources seem to specify Welsh (rather than British). You may be right, but I'd rather stick with what the sources say. Maybe @FruitMonkey: has an opinion here? -- Shuddetalk09:03, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It would give me the greatest of pleasures to state that, and I think looking back with fairly neutral eyes we could say he was a superstar of British rugby, but all the sources I can find that use the word superstar, and there are several, all smack the word Welsh or Wales into the same sentence. I'd keep Welsh there. FruitMonkey (talk) 20:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay then. You are right better to keep with the source material and it doesn't make a big difference really (the article kind of implies it anyway). Cheers —Cliftonian(talk)14:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Gould could side-step and kick with either foot" Sorry to be pedantic but strictly speaking anybody can do these things, what made Gould exceptional was that he could do them very well. I would suggest rewording slightly to "could side-step and kick effectively with either foot" or similar
"Following the withdrawal of their regular full back, Newport RFC selected Gould, aged 18, to play for the team. After this debut in 1882 he was never dropped from the side, for whom he played regularly until his retirement sixteen years later." Why not "Following the withdrawal of their regular full back, Newport RFC first fielded Gould in 1882, when he was 18. He was never dropped from the side thereafter and played regularly until he retired in 1898."
Done, but I've replaced "fielded" with "selected" -- I think this works better because we are talking about him never being "dropped" later on. -- Shuddetalk09:03, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"that tournament's match against England established Gould as a great player and captain." in whose opinion?
"By the time Gould retired he was the most capped Welsh centre – a record he held until 1980 – with 25 caps in the position." I would change these dashes to commas myself, I think they would do just as well in this context
"The Gould Affair" I don't think this needs the quotation marks around it, or the upper-case letters on every word; I think "... known as the Gould affair that saw Wales withdraw ..." would do just as well
"constituted professionalism – which they claimed breached the sport's by-laws" why not simplify to "constituted professionalism and breached the sport's by-laws"?
Not sure this is correct, I think there was a dispute over whether it was professionalism, and whether the IRFB had any authority over the issue. I'll leave this as is I think. -- Shuddetalk09:03, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Shudde is right here, as the laws laid down were very vague. The laws stated that no "player who shall receive from his club or any member of it any money consideration whatever, actual or prospective, for services rendered to football for the club for which he is a member." Now the money came not from the club but a public subscription, (hard to prove in those days where the money came from and if they were members of Newport RFC). Also it turned out that England had done exactly the same thing by gifting Richmond captain William Bromet a £50 plate for services to Richmond the year before. Bromet was not punished. FruitMonkey (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"The WFU subsequently withdrew from the IRFB, but were readmitted twelve months later after agreeing that Gould would not be permitted to represent Wales again." perhaps contract to "The WFU withdrew from the IRFB in protest, rejoining a year later on the condition that Gould would not represent Wales again."
Then perhaps "The WFU withdrew from the IRFB in protest, rejoining a year later under the IRFB-imposed condition that Gould would not represent Wales again." ? —Cliftonian(talk)14:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps put just a little sentence at the end very briefly saying what he did after his rugby career, and saying "He died in 1919 at the age of 54" or something like that
General note: We seem to have spaced endashes ( – ) and emdashes (—) mixed together in the article. Either is fine but we should be consistent.
You're right. Can't believe we overlooked that. I've used spaced endashes throughout. Please let me know if you find any emdashes, they should not be in there! -- Shuddetalk09:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We say in the infobox that Newport is in Monmouthshire but not in the body (indeed in the body we don't even explicitly say that it's in Wales)
Added Monmouthshire in section -- I have not said that it is in Wales. I think this okay, but will add that if you believe I should. -- Shuddetalk09:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would wikilink Newport RFC in full the first time you mention it here (Newport Rugby Football Club) rather than contracting to simply "Newport"—we wikilink to Newport the town just two lines above and some might get confused
Perhaps briefly explain what the Triple Crown is in a footnote when you first mention it (this would mean you could remove the explanation further down, incidentally)
"as: 159 tries, 66 conversions, 61 dropped goals and a single penalty, over 231 appearances" You don't need the colon after "as", the sentence makes sense without it
" – the second one resulting from a smart pass by Gould" again you could use a comma here rather than a dash (you could also trim "resulting from a smart pass" to "following a smart pass")
7–9 and 7–11 should be reversed I think; I thought proper practice was always to put the higher score first (besides, if the score is "7–9 to England" then surely, grammatically speaking, it is England who are losing?)
"the crowd was enthusiastic and celebrated the Welsh victory" The latter part of this statement seems rather jarring. I mean, it goes without saying that Welsh supporters would celebrate a Welsh Triple Crown—seems kind of odd to say so so vaguely. Did they do anything specific or special to celebrate? If not, perhaps just leave it at "the crowd was overjoyed by the Welsh success." or something like that
How about merging the last two sentences into: "Despite an unconvincing Welsh display, an enthusiastic crowd of 20,000 watched their country win the game and with it the title, decided by a single try from Bert Gould". FruitMonkey (talk) 20:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"This caused a stir from the other Home Unions as it was seen as an attempt to pay Gould for playing, and as such was professionalism." Perhaps "This caused a stir among the other Home Unions, who interpreted this as an effort to pay Gould for playing, which would constitute professionalism."
See note above about "The Gould Affair"; I think saying "referred to as the Gould affair." Would do fine
I'm going to get FruitMonkey to check the sources and see exactly what they do regarding this. I'd be happy to just follow whatever convention they use. -- Shuddetalk10:15, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have no opinion either way, this BBC article calls it the infamous "Gould Affair", some books use Gould affair, and many don't use the term at all. In his 1999 book, Prince Gwyn, David Parry-Jones gives a large chunk over to the incident but does not name it as such in the text, though in his index, separate from Gould, Arthur 'Monkey' is 'Gould Affair'. The 'The' appears redundant, but the Affair seems to swing both ways. Any further thoughts? FruitMonkey (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I was recently involved with the D'Oliveira affair article and one of the reviewers at Profumo affair, and the consensus in both of these was a lower-case "a" as it is a common noun and we dont use title case. But I won't make a big deal, just thought I'd mention it as I have been through this already. —Cliftonian(talk)14:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As there appears to be a precedent with far more pressing and notable 'affairs', I think we should follow their stance. I don't know if we should get rid of the quotes or not. I have changed the The and Affair to lowercase. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:56, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Gould Affair
Section title shouldn't start with "The"; also think affair should have a small "a" at the start (so the section would be titled "Gould affair")
"W.J. Townsend Collins" should put space between initials. Also note capitalisation of Gould affair and perhaps consider briefly explaining what is happening in the cartoon with text
"to a national hero" missing full stop here. also perhaps say "from the Welsh public to a man seen as a national hero" rather than unequivocally saying he was one
"Other national unions also believed that the monies may be given to Gould after he had retired from rugby." I don't quite get what this means, I'm sorry. We mean the English, Scots and Irish thought it would be okay to give the money to Gould after he retired?
Better you were, as on closer reading despite some umming and arring, there was no such belief from the other unions. Especially Scotland. I have removed the offending line. FruitMonkey (talk) 20:29, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He became ill at work on 2 January, and was rushed home where he died that day of an internal haemorrhage." Try "Falling ill at work on 2 January, he was rushed home where died later that day of an internal haemorrhage."
"His funeral is believed to have been the biggest ever seen in Wales, until surpassed almost 30 years by that of former British Prime Minister David Lloyd George." Perhaps "His funeral was reported as the biggest ever seen in Wales up to that time; it was surpassed three decades later by that of the former British Prime Minister David Lloyd George." Also I wouldn't bother wikilinking "British Prime Minister".
"; though the bed was lost when a portion of the hospital was demolished" I would turn this into a separate sentence and remove "though", which is not necessary. Also do we know when the portion of the hospital was demolished?
"In June 2007 he was inducted into the Welsh Sports Hall of Fame;" I'd rearrange to "Gould was inducted into the Welsh Sports Hall of Fame in June 2007;"
Sorry, I actioned this a few days ago. Removed the information as I'm sure it's true, but probably added by the actual family with no sources in sight. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"When Newport RFC decided to set up their own hall of fame in 2012 the first person inaugurated was Gould." You don't need "decided to set up"; "set up" is enough
That concludes the prose and content aspects of the review; I will look at source formatting etc another time. Overall the article looks pretty solid in my opinion with all of the "meat" of an FA present; just needs a bit of final polishing and tweaking on the way. I hope the comments above help. If there's anything else I can help with at all please let me know. Well done so far on this great article, which was a pleasure to review. Cheers and keep well. —Cliftonian(talk)17:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot @Cliftonian:. Always appreciate your feedback. Sorry I couldn't reply to your comments more promptly. I think I've addressed most of your comments, but there are a few things there FruitMonkey may have to look at. Let me know if there are any remaining problems. -- Shuddetalk10:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reference footnotes look good to me, except the text used to link to the full references is a bit unorthodox in some places. For example see the "Wyatt Gould" footnote that on first appearance seems to be sourcing the statement to Wyatt Gould himself, but actually directs below to sport-reference.com. Generally we use the author surname or, failing that, the publisher or website name or something like that, not a description of the page, for this kind of reference.
Why aren't the news sources in the small "reftext" as well (use {{refbegin}} and {{refend}})?
I don't think you need "The" in The University of Warwick
Where is Ansells Ltd based? Ditto John Wiley & sons (capital "S"?) and Robson Books.
Ansells states 'England', but they were a brewing company based in Birmingham, but I have no proof that is where it was produced. Robson is a blank, but the Dummies books are in Ontario, so they have been filled in. And yes, it's 'Sons'. FruitMonkey (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You have quite a lot of places where the publisher is given as the web address rather than the actual publisher. For example it should be BBC rather than bbc.co.uk. You have quite a few like this (espnscrum, swanseafc.co.uk, sports-reference).
Hey. I've addressed those remaining comments except your first one: I have used the author name where there is one; otherwise for the news articles I've used the publisher, but for the web references I've gone with the title. This is for two reasons: because many of the citations share the same publisher (for example ESPN) and because using a title will hopefully make identifying the sources a little easier on a mobile device. If you have a better preference for the web sources (that don't have authors), let me know and I'll be happy to oblige. Thanks for your review. Appreciate it. -- Shuddetalk10:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No problem at all. I'd be happier with putting perhaps the publisher then the title ("Newport RFC: Bert Gould Profile", "ESPN: Arthur Gould") or something like that? Apart from that everything looks good now. This nitpick doesn't stand in the way of me giving this article my support for featured article status. —Cliftonian(talk)11:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: Just having a last read-through before supporting. I was a peer reviewer, and have been waiting for a few more comments before writing here. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:42, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would the "Early years" section be better named as "Family and early years" as a substantial part is about his family.
"Gould ran in two of his team's three tries against the wishes of the Newport captain, Charlie Newman, who kept shouting for Gould to "Kick, kick!"": As written, it sounds a little like the captain didn't want to score at all. Maybe "Gould ran in two of his team's three tries, disregarding the instructions of his captain, Charlie Newman, who kept shouting for Gould to "Kick, kick!"" or similar.
"Gould was not a regular member of the team, and instead played almost all his club rugby in England.": This may confuse the reader as we just said that he was never dropped by the team. Could we clarify why he did not play? Maybe a change of emphasis: as he played in England, he was not a regular for Newport.
"Gould lost his first match as captain, losing by two tries to nil at home, but this was the first of 18 caps he earned leading his country.": Not quite sure that a "but" is justified here given the connection between the two ideas.
"Gould lost the team captaincy for the first match to Frank Hill": Do we know why?
Simply put, no. My own opinion is that Hill won the match as captain against the Maoris and Wales decide to switch to four threequarters. Gould came back from abroad and was given back his captaincy but lost the next two games. So start of the next season they give it to Hill to see if he can recreate winning ways. Wales still lose so they revert to Gould. But there is no written proof. FruitMonkey (talk) 10:32, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"The tournament was a failure for Wales, losing all three matches.": As written, the tournament lost all three matches. Maybe "...who lost all three matches"?
"The 1893 Home Nations Championship was in stark contrast to the previous year for the Welsh": I don't think the Championship can be in contrast to a year; maybe "The result of the 1893..."
"Played at the Cardiff Arms Park, the pitch had been kept from freezing over the night before by 500 braziers dispersed across the playing field.": As written, the pitch was playing at Cardiff Arms Park.
"This led to a slippery ground, with conditions further hampered by a strong wind": Can conditions be hampered? Perhaps "This led to a slippery ground and the conditions were made more difficult by a strong wind" or "This led to a slippery ground; the players were further hampered by a strong wind"
when Percy Phillips received quick ball": May confuse the general reader.
"Gould requested that the pack heel the ball back quickly in the scrums, to give the backs the ball quickly and allow them to run at the English": Too many "backs", "balls" and "quickly"s in this.
"The fund could be seen as a professional fee to Gould, henceforth making him ineligible to play for his country.": Not sure that "could" is the right word here. Either "was" or "could have been" would fit better.
"In a move that was seen as an act of hurt pride": Seen by who? Players? Journalists? The public?
My only other comment is that we establish at the end that Gould was famous, and a household name. This does not not necessarily come across in the main part of the article. Is there any way that we could show his fame a little earlier? Sarastro1 (talk) 09:33, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how we can address this one. I can try and find some quotes regarding matches in which he played -- press reports etc. Other than that I'm not sure. He was definitely famous; the fact he played for, and captained, Wales for so long would make have made him a household name in the principality.
Other than those points upon which I've commented. I should have addressed the remainder of your comments. Please let me know if you have any more problems/questions. Thanks a lot for your help with the article. -- Shuddetalk10:45, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support: There is still one point which needs addressing above, but assuming that one is sorted, I'm happy to support this now. I think it comfortably meets the criteria and reads very clearly to tell an interesting story. I think congratulations are needed for all those involved. (Note: I was a peer reviewer and have done some copyediting of this article) Sarastro1 (talk) 21:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:
@FAC coordinators: Just a note to say that Cliftonian has kindly completely a source review, but that spotchecks for close paraphrasing etc have not been completed. I'm assuming the co-ordinators are going to want those spotchecks so have added a request at WT:FAC. Hope this is okay. – Shuddetalk03:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Shudde, sorry for not responding sooner. As your last FAC, less than a year ago, was spotchecked, I think we can do without one this time round. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:56, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen full back as two words - I'd always see/write "fullback" or occasionally "full-back" - maybe this is an Australian or Rugby League thing....?
The Welsh backs continually exposed the three threequarter system used by the English - "repeatedly" better?
I'm happy with any of fullback, full-back or full back. "Full back" was used before I started contributing to the article so just continued with it for the sake of consistency. Unsure if there is any preference among the three in British English. I've made the other change. Thanks for the comments. -- Shuddetalk05:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let's go fulvous! I started expanding this article at the behest of Crisco 1492 so that an FP could be fitted in without losing other decent images. Once started, I realised that this is one of the world's most widespread ducks, breeding on four continents, and deserving of a better article. Although, predictably, much of the research has been in the US, where it is pretty marginal, I've tried to paint a global picture. Thanks to Crisco for proving tweaks and comments, despite being poorly, before I brought this to FAC. Jimfbleak - talk to me?10:25, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: All images appear to be fine. All of them by Wikipedians, except one which is derived from an image with an OTRS tag. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"This species is gregarious and is usually found in small groups, although substantial flocks can form at favoured sites, and it will mingle with other ducks." The phrase at the end of the sentence seems to be tacked on.
"The downy ducklings are grey, with paler upperparts" This is rather vague. The chicks seem to have a prominent white band around their heads: see here
" Rice is normally a small part of the diet, and in Cuban rice fields the plants taken were mainly weeds growing with the crop." Strange change of tense. Is this referring to some study?
I came across this old (1922) but surprisingly comprehensive chapter by John C. Phillips on the "Fulvous Tree Duck" here. Aa77zz (talk) 18:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC) (I'm not suggesting that it is a useful source for the article - I just found it interesting as a historical document.) Aa77zz (talk) 22:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The regional distribution for the S. Asian region in the map is a bit too expansive. It is far more scarce than suggested. Rasmussen & Anderton provide a far better and more conservative distribution for the region. (Will mail you the map image Jim)
I've expanded the bit in "Status" using Kear and your Turnbull ref. I can't access that Ostrich ref, and the abstract doesn't even mention this species. Despite the IUCN map, which is wrong in Southern Africa as well as India, I'm not convinced that the duck is even found in the Western Cape, which is largely farmland and semi-desert. The SASOL guide doesn't show it as present that far south and west either, and Cohen and Spottiswoode don't even include it in the checklist at the back of their SW Africa guide. And (OR) I didn't see it there, nor expect too. I can't really do anything on that without the text Jimfbleak - talk to me?09:25, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
image caption "In flight, showing black-and-white tail coverts" - are there any black tail coverts? All my sources mention white upper tail coverts with the tail being black.
Like other members of its ancient genus - hmm, the way the word is used, it would be best to link to something specific like Dendrocygna rather than genus. However, that would be a bit easter-eggish. Other problem is Dendrocygna looks polyphyletic so I suspect that needs an overhaul. I'd be tempted to use the word "lineage" and leave unlinked.
Hmm, sticking the male's weight without the female's looks odd where it is - I might move it down to where distinctions between the sexes are discussed.
Support based partly on supports & edits after comments by more specialist editors. A handsome bird, and anything able to invade Florida since WW2 deserves support! Only two points:
"Old and regional names include Large Whistling Teal,[5] Brown Tree Duck, Mexican Duck, Squealer and Spanish Cavalier.[14]" - don't some of these deserve redirects, & hence bolding? They could stay where they are in the text though.
There are photos of birds in London and Stuttgart, well outside the normal range given. Are these summer visitors or human-aided releases etc? Johnbod (talk) 15:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, never seen that. I must say I often bold redirects outside the lead where appropriate, say if the term only relates to a particular section. But ok. Johnbod (talk) 15:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As for range: I agree, it's odd how we don't mention if vagrants reach Europe, or if the birds may go to Europe outside the breeding season in large numbers. There's a mention of the US there, but I don't see Europe. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnbod, thanks for support. With regard to the two points made
FWIW, I've normally done what Crisco says, bolding the main names in the lead, and listing obsolete or regional lower down unbolded
Both the European images are in collections, there are no natural European records. I'll tweak the captions to make that clear (and that's why those images are so good)
Over the last few months, I've taken this article from start to GA, and asked Tom to take some photos of the museum the next time he was in town. He went above and beyond (and is incredibly humble about it), and his photos have made a significant difference to this article for readers. So, I've asked him if he would join me as co-nominator (it will be his first time at FAC) because I believe his contribution deserves to be recognized.
This article is about Geology Hall, the sixth building built at Rutgers University. Designed by a well known architect, Henry Janeway Hardenbergh (known for NYC's Plaza Hotel), and built in 1872, the facility housed some science department offices, but is better known (then and today) for its geology museum featuring exhibits on the geology and natural history of New Jersey. --ColonelHenry (talk) 02:13, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Source review - spotchecks not done
FN4: is there to be something after that, or are we just missing a parenthesis?
Good piece of work. Leaning heavily to support, but a few thoughts below: adopt or ignore as you will. I'm not too knowledgeable on AmEng usage, so apologies for any obviously stupid things below:
Oops: apologies, for some reason this was only half completed. What I meant was that a line or so before you told us it was 1864, so either "six years later" or "in 1870" are fine, but both seem to be repetitive. Perhaps just "In 1870"? Your call as it's not a deal-breaker and it won't change my support. – SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"2013: US$1,215,365.62" Firstly I'm not sure we need the US (you've already mentioned the currency just beforehand, and it's a US building); I'm not sure we need the precision of 62c either?
Reply: - I mentioned "US$" to avoid any potential confusion over other "dollars" -- something I tend to do when adding inflation figures. In previous articles, I've had foreign users ask what I was converting, so in the vein of "better safe than sorry" I provide that distinction and avoid a situation that forces a reader to assume. I removed the 62c from the adjustment figure. The original amount listed cents, so I'll keep that precision for the original figure but will remove it for the inflation adjustment.--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Geology Hall's first floor provided the college with rooms for laboratory and lecture instruction, and housed the college's armory.[1]:p.101 The second floor was designed to accommodate a geological museum.[1]:p.101 The first-floor classrooms would house ..." May be worth having the two first floor mentions together before moving onto the second floor?
"to commit toward continuing": is that right in AmEng? It's "towards" in BrEng, but I'll leave it to you.
Done - In AmEng, either "toward" or "towards" is acceptable. And despite an occasional lapse, I usually use towards. I'll add an "s" given my respect for BrEng over AmEng.--ColonelHenry (talk)
Nice, informative article but I think the prose could be tightened up.
Who erected the building? Was it the president of the college, vice-president George H. Cook, or someone from the board of trustees? One of the major facts about any historic building, I don't see it mentioned in the article.
Reply: none of the sources that I've found or that are readily available name the builder/contractor who was responsible for construction. They name Campbell and Cook regarding the effort to build it (funds, idea), the trustees approving it, and Hardenbergh designing it, but none mention the guy who did the work. I bet if I dug deep in the University Archives I might find it, but right now that's would take a lot of time, travel, and effort just to add a few words.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:26, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Missing word: Compare this sentence "As part of the Queen's Campus, Geology Hall was included on the New Jersey Register of Historic Places and the National Register of Historic Places in 1973." from the intro with "In 1973, Geology Hall was included with six other buildings on Rutgers' Queen's Campus on the New Jersey Register of Historic Places the National Register of Historic Places." from the body. I think you are missing an "and" in the second sentence.
The first part of this sentence could be shortened: "Rutgers president William H. Campbell raised funds to construct a building to accommodate this expansion, and Geology Hall, designed by architect Henry Janeway Hardenbergh, was built in 1872." I don't think the fundraising aspect deserves more words than the design and construction of the building.
Reply: - I don't see a problem with this, and think the two parts are appropriately balanced (14 for funds (15 including "H.") 13 for design and construction). I don't consider this actionable.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:31, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Mixed tenses: "The museum, which is among the oldest collegiate geology collections in the United States, was founded by..." I think "The museum, one of the oldest..." sounds better and doesn't mix tenses.
Choice of words: "Its exhibits emphasize the natural history of New Jersey, geology, paleontology, and anthropology...". Isn't a word like "showcase" more visual than "emphasize", appropriate for describing a museum display? Don't the exhibits "encompass" the fields of "natural history, geology, paleontology and anthropology", they don't emphasize all of them, do they?
Repetitive use of the word "to": "Pursuant to the Morrill Act of 1862, this designation gave the state federal lands to sell to raise money to develop..."
Add a few explanatory words: "George Hammell Cook (1818-1889), a professor of chemistry and natural sciences, influenced the state to..." I'm guessing he was capable of influencing the state because he was highly respected?
Reply - it is the nature of a participatory republic that any citizen can influence his elected representatives--whether they are big or small. I think my discussion on Cook career offered in this passage adequately explains his importance and the platform on which he was able to "influence". I don't consider this actionable.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:43, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You have joined dependent clauses (no subject) with ", and". Is this correct in American English? Eg:
Restrictive vs unrestrictive: "Completed in 1872 at a cost of US$63,201.54 (2013: US$1,215,365), Geology Hall's first floor". Make it clear the building was completed in 1872. Talk about the first floor in a separate sentence.
Restrictive vs unrestrictive: "Today, Geology Hall houses offices of the university's administration and the Rutgers Geology Museum" Do you mean "houses offices" (some) or "houses the offices" (all)?
Addressed - revised to "houses some of the offices of..."--ColonelHenry (talk)
Plural noun: "The museum's collections, of which only a small portion is on display," Change "is" to "are".
Reply and other fix: - is is tied to the singular portion within the clause and is correct; feature is tied to the plural collections (and had to be changed from features).--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:06, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't make sense: "The museum's earliest collections began to coalesce in the 1836"
Reply: - "Coalesce" = bring together to form one mass or whole; commingle; to blend or come together; mix together different elements. Do you have a suggestion for a better way of stating this? --ColonelHenry (talk) 16:02, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Unwieldy sentence: "Many of the exhibits feature items that are unique to New Jersey, including Native American artifacts, minerals, and fossils, including a set of fossilized dinosaur tracks believed to belong to the carnivorous Grallator,..." You should separate list items with a semicolon, eg "Many of the exhibits feature items that are unique to New Jersey: Native American artifacts; minerals; fossils, including a set of fossilized dinosaur tracks believed to belong to the carnivorous Grallator; ..."
Break into separate paragraph: "The mastodon, found in a marl pit near Mannington, was sold by a local farmer to a travelling circus before it was acquired by Rutgers for display." If the mastodon was an attraction while it belonged to the travelling circus you should mention that. Are mastodon skeletons rare?
Reply: - Per MOS:PARAGRAPHS a one-sentence or two-sentence paragraph would be too short to standalone. Mastodon skeletons are not rare, as far as I know, since I can name a few museums in the NYC metro area that have at least one. As for the travelling circus, I could only assume it was on display, BUT the sources don't go into detail of it being put on display, only that it was sold to a travelling circus. I cannot go beyond what the source indicates.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:53, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Missing a hyphen: "The museum displays a 2,400-year old" Change "2400-year old" to "2400-year-old".
Repetitive: "The mummy ... was discovered in Northern Egypt and brought back to the United States by a Dutch Reformed missionary who served in Egypt in the early 1700s.". Change "who served in Egypt" to "who served there".
Preposition: "planning to place the museum's exhibits in permanent storage". I think "place ... into ... storage" is correct, instead of "place in".
Reply - After checking Oxford, Webster and Collins, I don't see a difference denotatively--and usage is indicated as correct either as in or into some place since expressing the situation of being enclosed or surrounded by something; expressing movement that results in being enclosed or surrounded by something. Storage would be one of those "somethings". I don't consider this actionable.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:49, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Missing word: "close the museum". Shouldn't that be "close down" or "shut down" to imply it's permanent?
Reply - "close" is an entirely appropriate idiom according to several dictionaries. The previous clause mentioned putting the exhibits in "permanent storage" which prefaces the nature of the closure. I don't consider this actionable.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:41, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Word choice: "A letter-writing campaign from alumni and the general public successfully convinced". I think "persuaded" is better than "successfully convinced".
TO FAC COORDINATORS: I contacted Ottre to inform him/her that I addressed the comments above,[21] however, I notice by the user's contributions that Ottre has only had three edits in 2014, two of which were at this FAC--and only 14 edits in the last two years[22]...so I do not expect Ottre to come back to review my responses herewith to his/her comments. Please take this into account and consider that I have made an good faith attempt to address Ottre's comments adequately.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
...to expand its curriculum to include science and agriculture education. - hmm, I know it's neat but looks a bit funny to my eyes....I think I'd say " to expand its curriculum to include [teaching/courses] in science and agriculture." or somesuch
Its exhibits showcase the natural history of New Jersey, geology, paleontology, and anthropology and include fluorescent zinc minerals from Franklin and Ogdensburg, a mastodon from Salem County, a dinosaur trackway discovered in Towaco, and a Ptolemaic era Egyptian mummy. - would a colon be better after "natural history of New Jersey" as what is coming after is alist of things belonging to that object?
Done semi-colon added, created a dependent clause re: geology/paleontology/anthropology, and created a new sentence with the second half of the sentence. --ColonelHenry (talk) 04:35, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hardenbergh and the trustees agreed that building with brick would be too expensive -- "building with brick" --> "this material" (avoids two bricks...)
Not thrilled about the gallery, but concede there is alot of nice visual material and don't feel strongly enough for it to be a deal-breaker. Ideally the section on exhibits could be longer to incorporate some of this material in hte body of the text....
Reply" I could increase the material on exhibits by going into detail on some of the items (since some have generated some literature in journals), but I wanted to err on the good side of WP:SUMMARY. Tom provided a lot of visual material with the collection of photographs and since there were only so many opportunities to use them in text, I thought a gallery would put them to good use. I've never really been thrilled about galleries (since many are badly executed), but I would rather show Tom's great photographs and a gallery serves that aim.--ColonelHenry (talk) 04:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Casliber: - I think I've addressed your concerns above, please review my responses to see if they suffice and if you see additional things needing to be addressed. I appreciate your help.--ColonelHenry (talk) 04:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
okay, tentative support on prose and possibly comprehensiveness. I can't see anything else to improve unequivocally and do not know enough to be hugely confident some notable tidbit has been missed, but if the consensus is that it hasn't then I think we're over the line. Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 05:50, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Shoebox2
Tentative support on the basis of characteristically elegant prose and attention to detail. However I do feel like one or two of the gallery photos could be eliminated without much loss (do we really need two views of the staircase?) and it could be made clearer when/why the classrooms for the physics, military science, and--especially--geology departments were moved. Shoebox2talk21:24, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it was necessary, only that some photos seemed more relevant than others. :) These are lovely photos, and I can understand why you'd be reluctant to leave any out. Shoebox2talk21:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: It is my understanding that the military science department was phased out with the WWII training programmes (i.e. V-12, etc.), and then transitioned into the ROTC programmes post-WWII; further that as the university expanded, first at the turn of the 20th century and then after WWII, the various science departments moved as other buildings were built. The physics department moved to the Busch campus (which was developed for all the math/sciences/engineering depts, etc.) in the 1960s, and geology later. However, there's little that says exactly that, therefore, no source = cannot be included. I'll look, but I had looked before and wasn't successful in finding anything for that.--ColonelHenry (talk) 09:47, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Rutgers-geology-exterior.png - an 'own work', seems fine.
File:Cook,gh.jpg - subject of photo died 1889, which means even if it had not previously been published, it would meet the US criterion of "120 years from date of creation". So licence appears sound.
File:Rutgers University Geology museum stone tools exhibit.JPG and all subsequent images - 'own works', not portraying art works or other copyright items, seem fine.
Mirror symmetry is an interesting example of an idea in theoretical physics that has had a significant impact on pure mathematics. This article was promoted to GA status back in September, and I've done a lot of work since then to bring it to FA status. Polytope24 (talk) 04:48, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support, in light of the work done on the article since its nomination. Ozob (talk) 02:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC) Comment. While I enjoyed reading this article, I'm a professional mathematician, and sentences like, "Then the area element of the torus is which integrates to on the unit square" are perfectly clear to me. That's not so for the average reader. The average reader finds mathematics at best unintuitive; at worst they find it terrifying, even if they think that physics is fascinating. In particular, most laymen are intimidated by equations. Stephen Hawking, when he wrote A Brief History of Time, was told by his editor that every equation halves the number of people who will read the book. There was a nice article by Steven Strogatz in the Notices of the AMS recently on writing mathematics for the general public which discussed this same issue in depth. So while I think that the article is very good for someone with some technical background, I am not sure that others will find it so appealing. Ozob (talk) 23:29, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Too, too, true. Even if, as I expect is the case here, the topic is never going to be understood by those without some advanced maths, there should at the least be a summary in the lead that bends over backwards to explain in lay terms roughly where the topic fits in, and what those who do understand it use it for, or in. I can see an effort has been made here, but it does not really work. The lead seems generally too short - Enumerative geometry (which seems a bit simpler to grasp as a concept) gets a long section below, but is not mentioned. Johnbod (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for your comments. I have modified the lead slightly, following Johnbod's suggestion, to explain the idea of enumerative geometry. Please let me know if this is an improvement.
About the level of mathematics, I'm not sure what I can do exactly. The current article does require a little knowledge of complex numbers and calculus, but this is already way, way less background than you would really need to understand mirror symmetry. A proper treatment of mirror symmetry would require very advanced ideas from complex algebraic geometry, symplectic geometry, and homological algebra, not to mention very advanced knowledge of quantum field theory and string theory.
Somehow I would like to include a precise discussion in the article without assuming all this background. The approach taken here seemed appropriate because it comes from another encyclopedia entry by Eric Zaslow in "The Princeton Companion to Mathematics". I welcome any specific ideas about how I might make the mathematical parts of this article more accessible. Polytope24 (talk) 06:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, let me suggest some changes. Consider the Overview section. It starts off with a subsection called Idea, and this section attempts to explain where mirror symmetry might come from. The Idea subsection can be caricatured as:
Duality is a thing relating two theories
String theory requires extra dimensions
Extra dimensions are eliminated by compactification
There are two Calabi–Yau manifolds
Mirror symmetry is interesting to mathematicians
This is oversimplified, and not exactly what the article says, but it's what I think a lay reader will get out of it. Imagine that someone who has no prior knowledge of mirror symmetry comes to this article and reads this subsection. They are looking for The Story of Mirror Symmetry. They stop near the beginning of the next section when they hit the first equation in the article, (technically it's not an equation because there's no equals sign, but those weird w's are intimidating nonetheless). The story that they get is the one I outlined above, and—to be honest—it's going to be opaque to them. It starts off with abstract nonsense (duality), continues with five-dimensional unicorns (extra dimensions), then a meaningless long word (compactification), something named after some Calabi-Yau fellow, and then bland assertions that mathematicians think it's important. I think the article presupposes background in mathematics or physics that the general reader will not have.
I would suggest greatly expanding this section, roughly along the following lines (I apologize for any errors; I'm a mathematician, not a physicist):
String theory is a model of the physical world where elementary particles like protons and electrons are modeled by tiny one-dimensional strings.
String theory in four dimensions is inconsistent, but string theory is also the best available model for quantum gravity.
If we add extra dimensions to string theory, then it's not obviously inconsistent.
In order to make these extra dimensions accord with both everyday experience and with existing experimental verification of general relativity and quantum physics, they must not show up in any experiment we can do right now.
One way of doing this is if the extra dimensions close up on themselves. If they close up on themselves and are too small for our equipment to detect, then they will be consistent with prior experiments.
Not all ways of having these extra dimensions close up on themselves have the necessary physical properties. The extra dimensions must be shaped like something called a Calabi–Yau manifold (named after Eugenio Calabi and Shing-Tung Yau).
Even if string theory with the aforementioned extra dimensions is a correct model for the physical world, nobody knows which Calabi–Yau manifold is the right model for the physical world. This requires experimental observations that we cannot currently do.
Furthermore, there is more than one way to create a string theory from a choice of Calabi–Yau manifold. Two ways of doing so are called the A-model and the B-model.
However, it turns out that the choice of an A-model or a B-model is irrelevant. An A-model on a Calabi–Yau manifold is the same as a B-model on a different but related Calabi–Yau manifold. This related manifold is called the mirror of the original Calabi–Yau manifold. Mirror symmetry is the study of how A-models on a Calabi–Yau manifold relate to B-models on its mirror.
Mirror symmetry is a type of duality, meaning that the mirror of a mirror is what you started with. There are many kinds of dualities in physics.
Mirror symmetry also has mathematical consequences such as enumeration of rational curves.
In physics, mirror symmetry is justified on physical grounds. Mathematicians want to be able to prove the existence of mirror symmetry using pure logic, with no appeals to physical necessity. In some but not all cases this has been done.
Now, that's much, much longer; it's a lot to write, and a lot to read. But it can be done without any mathematics whatsoever, and it can be done so that the reader understands The Story of Mirror Symmetry. In addition, a reader who has the background to understand some or all of the mathematical details will be much better equipped for the rest of the article. That said, I think that this treatment applies to many of the later sections: They can be written using less formal mathematics and more prose and pictures. For example, complex structures on a torus can be described as measurements of the sizes of the torus's holes (since that's most of what the period lattice is capturing). In some ways the symplectic geometry section already does this, since it talks about area, but the discussion is in terms of a volume form , and that kind of language foreign to many potential readers. The more that the article relies on prose, the more accessible it becomes.
I think a good example in this regard is homotopy groups of spheres, which explains a very advanced mathematical topic to a general audience. Eventually, the article becomes more technical and less accessible, but for a while at the beginning the reader needs very little background. Since you're aiming for mirror symmetry (string theory) to be an FA you'll have to aim even higher and correspondingly make the descriptions even simpler. Another excellent article is group (mathematics); it's written at a level where anyone interested in recreational mathematics should be able to follow (and the more technical stuff is in group theory). I don't pay much attention to physics articles, so I don't know whether there are any good examples like this among the physics articles; perhaps yours will be the first! Ozob (talk) 03:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these helpful suggestions, Ozob. I just finished making some major revisions to the article. I have significantly expanded the Overview section following your suggestions, and I have also collected the mathematical portions of the article in a separate section that readers can skip if they do not have the background. I don't really see how I can remove any of the math while still explaining what I wanted to explain (the relationship between complex and symplectic structures of mirror manifolds), but I made a serious effort to simplify the exposition and make the mathematics less dense. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do. Polytope24 (talk) 06:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It works a lot better for me, but I will wait for expert comments. As I said above, I never expected to be able to understand most of the article, but the lead and overview now seem to explain pretty clearly where it "fits in" (to quote myself above). Thanks for the prompt and extensive rewriting. Johnbod (talk) 12:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'll wait for Ozob to chime in here, but I just wanted to say that if the mathematical sections of the article are still a problem, I have an idea about how to remove most of this material and expand other sections of the article, possibly making it more accessible. Polytope24 (talk) 02:55, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I like what you've done with the introduction, and what I want to say is: More! I think you could give the entire rest of the article the same treatment. The geometry of tori, for example, is very visual, and I believe that you can give a treatment that is accessible to everyone. And similarly for symplectic manifolds because they're so closely tied to classical mechanics. I think the article's progressing very well, but it's still not done. Ozob (talk) 03:49, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I made a bunch of changes to the article, and I think it's much more accessible. The content is basically the same, but I've removed all the technical mathematics and described these concepts more intuitively in other sections of the article. Please let me know what you think. Thank you. Polytope24 (talk) 01:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Very good! The article is much, much more accessible. I have a few more comments, though:
The overall layout feels odd. The history seems like it should be closer to the start (often a historical introduction to a subject reads well), and the applications seem like they should be further down.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't think the article says clearly anywhere that constructing mirrors is still conjectural. My understanding of the state of affairs is that it's much better understood than it used to be (in particular I think Mark Gross has some nice work on this – by the way, the article links to the wrong Mark Gross), but there are still cases where it's somewhat mysterious.
Also, now the article has no equations whatsoever. While I think the article is better now than it was before, it might be that it's gone too far towards accessibility and now does not have a full and complete description of the subject. Take a look at Emmy Noether, for example: It gives the reader a look not only to Noether herself but also at her work. Some parts of it are inaccessible without some background, but those parts are relatively few, and they often come together with simply descriptions.
Despite my suggestions, I'm running out of feedback for the article. I think it's now at the point where it would be good for some non-technical people to look at it. Ozob (talk) 03:50, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for your comments, Ozob. I think the article has improved significantly as a result of your input. I've made some changes to the to address your points 1 and 2. The history section is now the second section rather than the last.
I'm not sure what to do about your third point. Mirror symmetry is not a subject where you have one big central equation, and my previous attempts to include math in the article involved too much handwaving and circumlocution. I considered adding more information about Hodge numbers of mirror manifolds, but this topic is only tangentially related to the actual mirror duality, and I would need a lot of space to explain it in a reasonably accessible way.
Actually, I think the article looks much better now that I've changed the order of the sections. The previous version had the applications section right after the overview, and this made it seem like something was missing from the article. Please let me know what you think, and tell me if you have any specific ideas about what sort of technical details I should be including in the article. Thanks. Polytope24 (talk) 03:22, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since I'm not an expert in mirror symmetry, I don't know what kind of technical information is important to include and what isn't. My feeling about the current version is that it stops just shy of giving any details because those details are hard to make accessible. For example, I don't know how one explains derived categories to non-specialists. But if the article is really going to try to explain homological mirror symmetry, then it needs to have some kind of description of what the derived category is, what the derived categories of coherent sheaves and of the Fukaya category look like, why these are expected to provide interesting information, and how they're expected to be related. Right now, the article starts down this road, then quickly stops. There is much more to say about homological mirror symmetry, and the reader can see that, but the article avoids it. Until the article really wrestles with details and makes the details accessible (if not to a complete layperson, then to someone with very minimal training in physics and mathematics), then the article isn't complete. This is a very hard thing to do, but the article isn't FA quality without it. Ozob (talk) 04:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I'm perfectly happy if a maths article becomes completely incomprehensible to me in the lower sections, so long as I feel the broad topic has been explained in terms a lay person can just about understand at the start. There should be enough mathematical detail to keep mathemeticians, who are always likely to be the main readership, happy, but it doesn't need to be (and probably can never be) comprehensible to the lay reader throughout - I for one am content to drop out after a certain point. Johnbod (talk) 05:09, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I may be overstating the need for accessibility in later sections of the article. I don't think we can seriously expect the article to make derived categories accessible to the layperson (I remember struggling with them myself). But the article shouldn't omit these topics entirely. Ozob (talk) 16:31, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I expanded the section on homological mirror symmetry. It's should still be accessible to a broad audience, but now it gives a more detailed description of the two categories. Polytope24 (talk) 00:04, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Much better! I object, however, to the last sentence: There are well-known links between symplectic and complex geometry. These are best explained by Unitary_group#2-out-of-3_property.
Looking over the article again, I realized that I don't really know what mirror symmetry is good for in physics. I get the impression from the article that it helps in doing calculations; why? Why should looking at a mirror manifold be any easier than looking at the original manifold? Ozob (talk) 03:32, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm getting the impression that mirror symmetry appears in physics as a kind of technical tool; is there physical intuition for why it should sometimes be easier (or harder) to work on the mirror manifold? Ozob (talk) 14:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's a useful technical tool in physics because it simplifies things mathematically. I'm not sure if there is a more intuitive reason for this.
I think you're assuming that the change of manifolds is what simplifies the calculation when in fact it's the change of theories. Let me know if there's a way to clarify this in the article. Polytope24 (talk) 15:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, I am. I guess I don't really understand the difference between type IIA and type IIB string theories and therefore I don't understand why switching theories would be significant. The article doesn't currently explain how either of these theories work, so we can't expect the reader to understand why mirror symmetry would be physically important. I guess it would help if the article tried to address this as part of the overview section. Then, later in the article, it could sketch how the correspondence between theories on mirror pairs works. That would not only avoid readers getting misconceptions (as I did) but also make the article more comprehensive. Ozob (talk) 01:07, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, OK! This gives me a much better sense of why mirror symmetry would be useful and physically relevant.
At this point, I'm out of criticism for the article; I don't know how to make it better. I'll mark myself as supporting this article's nomination. Ozob (talk) 02:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Now ready. Near to support After the responses to my comments above, and Ozub's change to support, I'm very near to support. I think the comments just below are sensible, and I also wonder if the 6 "see also"s can easily be reduced by mentioning some in the text (I hope none are already mentioned). Johnbod (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Johnbod. The topics linked in the "See also" section are actually not part of mirror symmetry per se. What I've tried to do here is collect links to a handful of other examples of ideas in modern theoretical physics that have influenced the development of mathematics. These would presumably be of interest to readers interested in mirror symmetry. Please let me know if this is an appropriate use of the "See also" section. Polytope24 (talk) 20:26, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Polytope24: My understanding of ALSO is that it probably isn't an appropriate use: "The links in the "See also" section should be relevant, should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic ..." Of course, a featured article is supposed to be comprehensive. If you do keep some links: "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous." RockMagnetist (talk) 20:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, FAs, at least when passed, tend to have 3 SAs or fewer. It might be better to string a sentence together about "ideas in modern theoretical physics that have influenced the development of mathematics" with them as examples. Johnbod (talk) 21:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the explanation. I went ahead and removed several of the links. I left only the ones that are rather closely related to mirror symmetry but not closely enough to include in a survey like this article. Polytope24 (talk) 02:09, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - I am a physicist, but I have had little exposure to string theory, so my comments will be mainly about readability. Overall, this is a well-written article, and I congratulate Polytope24 for doing a great job of making it accessible. However, there are some stylistic problems of the sort that tend to creep into mathematical writing. Some I fixed myself, but there are a few that I didn't feel BOLD enough to fix. For now, I have only looked at the Overview:
Consider making the first section heading String theory instead of Overview.
Per Manual of Style, the section headings generally should not repeat the article title. I'm wondering whether Homological mirror symmetry could be replaced by Homology.
'the manifolds are said to be "mirror" to one another' is ugly. Would mathematicians object if it were replaced by "the manifolds are said to mirror one another"?
The garden hose analogy is a bit puzzling, since the hose is actually three-dimensional. Is the ant really "inside" or is it restricted to the surface?
The paragraph on duality: It's jarring to start discussing "physical systems" and switch to "theories", unless you explain why they are the same thing. Also, there is some flab here. How about replacing
If two theories are related by a duality, it means that one theory can be transformed so that it ends up looking just like the other theory. The two theories are then said to be dual to one another under the transformation.
by
If one theory can be transformed so it looks just like another theory, the two are said to be dual under that transformation.
"In the late 1980's, it was noticed" needs to be replaced by something more definite (i.e., the names of the noticers).
"In the context of topological string theory, mirror symmetry states that two theories, the A-model and B-model, are equivalent in a certain precise sense." This doesn't seem to add any new information to the preceding text.
You're welcome. The illustrations are gorgeous, by the way. I moved a couple to the right because I think they look better there, but I don't mind if you move them back. RockMagnetist (talk) 21:04, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've made a bunch of changes to the article. Here's a summary of what I did to address your points:
1. I changed the headings in the overview section to include a reference to string theory.
2. I don't see any way of abbreviating the term homological mirror symmetry. I hope that's okay. This is a phrase that appears in all the literature on the subject. Also, the term "homology" is only very indirectly related to homological mirror symmetry.
3. Changed "mirror" to mirror.
4. Fixed garden hose analogy.
5. Revised the paragraph on duality following your suggestion.
6. Credited Cumrun Vafa and others with the discovery of mirror symmetry.
7. Tweaked the sentence on topological string theory to emphasize that I'm introducing two new terms here: the "A-model" and "B-model".
Most of these changes look good. However, my third point had to do with grammar, not typography - "to mirror" would be better than "to be mirror to". It's something I have noticed about the use of mathematical terminology: often, a definition that makes grammatical sense in its original context is grafted without change into a sentence where it is not good grammar. Also, for point 7 it might help to have a link to the section in which they are described. RockMagnetist (talk) 05:09, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I added the links you requested and changed the terminology slightly. It would be a little odd and unconventional to say the manifolds mirror one another, so instead I wrote that they are mirror manifolds. Polytope24 (talk) 05:56, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments on Homological mirror symmetry:
Is it correct to refer to a Calabi-Yau manifold as "a Calabi-Yau"?
I'm wondering whether the description of categories is complete. Is the morphism a structure-preserving mapping between branes? If so, what structure is preserved? Is the "state" of an open string entirely determined by the endpoints, or is it something more?
People often refer to Calabi-Yau manifolds as Calabi-Yaus, but I can change this in the article if you like. As for the morphisms in the derived category, I have worded the explanation such a way that it is technically accurate without going into too much detail. The morphisms in this category are indeed structure-preserving maps; they are obtained from morphisms of sheaves. The set of all morphisms between two branes has the structure of a vector space, which physicists regard as the state space for strings stretched between the two branes. If you like, I can explain this in the article, but I think it's probably best to leave it as it is. Polytope24 (talk) 02:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As for your detailed explanation of morphisms - I think you should put it in. You're near the end of the article, and this is by far the most difficult section (in fact, it probably should be the last section). It's difficult because it is loaded with abstract concepts, and I'm sure a reader who made it this far would appreciate anything that you could do to make it more concrete. RockMagnetist (talk) 06:15, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments on Strominger-Yau-Zaslow conjecture:
I removed the figure that just pictures a torus, because (though pretty) it is redundant and forces you to specify which picture of a torus you're referring to in the text.
"says how these circles are arranged" - "determines" maybe? Also, aren't there an infinite number of choices for B? Later you mention an "auxiliary space", so a bridge to this concept would help.
In the second last paragraph, does applying T-duality amount to mapping the red and pink circles onto each other? If not, is there some other way of picturing the dual torus?
I tweaked the language in this last section to hopefully address your concerns. The point about T-duality is that all of the longitudinal circles are inverted, giving a new torus which is "fatter" or "skinnier" than the original. I hope my revision makes this clear. Polytope24 (talk) 06:08, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
General comment - I think this will be my last comment. This article is looking really good, and I'm ready to support it. However, there are still several places where you use the words "some", "many" or "X are certain Y", and these are often vague. If you can replace any of them with more concrete statements, the prose would be more crisp (as in User:Tony1/How to improve your writing). RockMagnetist (talk) 06:20, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I think it meets all the featured article criteria. I don't have the expertise to say whether it is comprehensive, but there are no obvious gaps, and Polytyope24 has done an excellent job making it comprehensible to a non-expert. RockMagnetist (talk) 21:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Sorry, Polytope24, for being late to the review process. All your hard work with Ozob and RockMagnetist has paid off, as the article is very readable given the mathematical sophistication of the topic. From a content point of view I think I am very near full support for FA status. Just a couple of comments.
In the context of comprehensiveness, in Strings and compactification section you mention superstrings, but nowhere else in the article. The rest of the article talks about Calabi-Yau manifolds as seemingly ordinary varieties with e.g., their defining polynomials containing no Grassmann variables. For superstrings, are there super-Calabi-Yau manifolds? Do these supermanifolds have supermirror symmetry? It would be super if you could clarify this.
In the Theoretical physics section, it is said, "mirror symmetry can be used to understand properties of gauge theories (a class of highly symmetric physical theories appearing, for example, in the standard model of particle physics). Such theories arise from strings propagating on a nearly singular background, and mirror symmetry is a useful tool for doing computations in these theories.[45]" But reference 45 doesn't really support this assertion. In chapter 36 of the Hori et.al tome, there is no mention of mirror symmetry being applicable to the standard model. It only discusses gauge theories, like N = 2 supersymmetric SU(2) gauge theory in four dimensions and large-N Chern-Simons theory. These are quite specialized gauge theories with special symmetries. As far as I know, the geometric engineering approach hasn't mapped the standard model in an analogous fashion. Hence it isn't clear that the standard model has a mirror symmetry.
1. The part of mirror symmetry that I'm most familiar with is homological mirror symmetry, and there you certainly don't need any supermanifolds. Everything is formulated in terms of an ordinary Calabi-Yau variety. The book by Hori et al. discusses the superspace formalism for supersymmmetric field theories in Chapter 12, but there it's the worldsheet that's being treated as a supermanifold, not the target space. I don't know if there's some formulation of mirror symmetry where the Calabi-Yau manifolds are promoted to supermanifolds.
2. My reference to the standard model was only supposed to provide a context for the discussion of gauge theory. I have modified the language in this section to emphasize that the gauge theories studied using mirror symmetry are not part of the standard model.
Thanks, Polytope24, you have addressed both my issues and new wording concerning the standard model looks good to me. The article has my support for FA status. --Mark viking (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I think this article meets all the featured article criteria for content: the prose is clear and concepts well-explained, the the coverage of the topic is comprehensive, the inline citations look to support the assertions (my quibble regarding the standard model above was a matter of wording, not a bad reference) and a spot check of some of the references showed that they all checked out. I'm not an expert on MOS compliance in FA, etc, but in regards to the content, the article is FA class. Well done, Polytope24! --Mark viking (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It looks as though the article has had quite a bit of attention since your crie de coeur on the FAC talkpage, which is how I noticed it. I can't comment sensibly on any of the article's substantial content, which is way outside my range of comprehension. However, I did notice that in the relatively short lead the words "mirror symmetry" occur ten times, which is over-repetitive and could, I am sure, be reduced by a few textual manoeuvres. Brianboulton (talk) 12:02, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments First, given the complicated technical nature of the subject, this article does an excellent job in providing a relatively accessible account. While reading I noticed a few things:
As currently phrased the tone of some of the remarks about lack of mathematical rigour in the physical formulation of mirror symmetry can be misread as being a little judgemental. (I am sure this is not intended, but different people may read things in different ways). Take for example the line in the lede: " Although the original approach to mirror symmetry was based on nonrigorous ideas from theoretical physics, mathematicians have gone on to rigorously prove some of its mathematical predictions". This could be phrased more neutrally as (for example) "Since the original formulation of mirror symmetry based on physical intuition, rigorous mathematical proofs of some of it predictions have been formulated." (OK, maybe not the smoothest suggestion.) This avoids a few unwanted suggestions, such as a dichotomy between physicists and mathematicians (even if that does exist to some extent. Similar phrasing occurs again in the "enumerative geometry" section.
"A Calabi–Yau manifold is a special (typically six-dimensional) space..." If I recall correctly, Calabi-Yau manifolds can have any (even) number of dimensions. The word "typical" seems out of place. (The thing you seem to want to stress is that the six dimensional case is of most physical interest.)
"In a paper from 1985, Philip Candelas, Gary Horowitz, Andrew Strominger, and Edward Witten showed that by compactifying string theory on a Calabi–Yau manifold, one obtains a theory roughly similar to the standard model of particle physics" It has been a while for me, but isn't Calabi-Yau compactition required in order to retain some degree of supersymmetry? (Which is necessary for some popular models of beyond the standard model physics, but not for the standard model per se.) Please double check that this phrasing is accurate.
"Such dualities arise frequently in modern physics, especially in string theory." Is "frequently" the best adverb here? You could take the position that dualities are actually quite rare. However, they are very useful when they exist and therefor very important.
One more comment, some of the papers referenced are missing DOIs, while others do include them. This should be at least consistent. (As annoying as the task of tracking them down an adding them can be.)TR16:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments. I made the following changes to the article:
1. I certainly didn't want the discussion of mathematical rigor to sound like an attack on physicists. I have changed the wording to emphasize that this has to do with methodological differences between the two subjects.
2. It is possible to talk about Calabi-Yau manifolds in dimensions other than 6, but the six-dimensional ones are the most interesting even for pure mathematicians. I changed the wording to avoid confusing the reader.
3. The sentence about Calabi-Yau compactification is true as stated, and it's also related to supersymmetry. I added a few words mentioning this fact in the article.
4. The word "frequently" is perhaps not the best choice, but I would say that dualities are really quite ubiquitous in theoretical physics. I changed the wording in this sentence.
5. I'm working on tracking down the DOIs of these articles.
The change you made for 3 has a small problem. As it reads now, it suggests that the standard model has supersymmetry.
And for 4. I would call "ubiquitous" somewhat of an over statement for someting for which the occurences outside string theory can be counted on one hand. It would be a lot safer to state that: "Such dualities play an important role in modern physics, especially string theory." This is also more informative.
I just fixed #3, and I'll take care of the DOIs as soon as I get the chance. As for #4, I disagree that "ubiquitous" is an overstatement. In addition to the dualities relating different versions of string theory, you have lots of dualities in field theory, like Montonen-Olive duality, Seiberg duality, the relationship between Chern-Simons theory and the Wess-Zumino-Witten model, the AGT correspondence, 3D-3D correspondence, 3D mirror symmetry, and various generalizations of the AdS/CFT correspondence. In many cases, these dualities don't just relate individual theories, but entire families of theories. It is true, of course, that all of these theories are related to string theory. If you like, I could emphasize this more in the article, or I could list some of these dualities to justify my use of the term ubiquitous. Let me know what you think. Polytope24 (talk) 23:17, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Concern In general the article is very good. I think at this point the only concern is comprehensiveness. The biggest problem with this is that most reviewers (myself included) are not in a good position to judge whether the article is comprehensive. However, I am a bit concerned that the article is missing the state-of-the-art. Reading the article, a reader may be left with the suggestion that nothing has happened in the field since 2000. Maybe this is indeed the case, but that seems unlikely to me for a field that seems rather active.TR10:28, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comment, TR. You make a fair point. I just added a paragraph to the end of the history section mentioning some of the recent developments in mirror symmetry. Polytope24 (talk) 04:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about a wealthy American business executive, equestrian, and philanthrophist who gave tens of millions of dollars to support education, rowing, and equestrians sports. Despite his unfortunate death and the circumstances surrounding it, he was a good man and touched the lives of many with his generosity, and many more by practically inventing the second mortgage market. After a very detailed GA review that was as rigorous as some of the best FAC reviewers, I believe the article is ready for prime-time.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:00, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: I had a page number for fn19. As for the rest, the library that had the newspaper articles clipped in one of their archive files, I didn't remember seeing page numbers on the clippings. And it would be a 90-minute drive just to check. Per Wikipedia:CITE#Newspaper_articles says "page numbers are optional". I would consider news/commentary magazines to fall in this category as well (I.e. Mother Jones)--ColonelHenry (talk) 07:55, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why do some periodical refs say "in work", and others just "work"?
In the 1980s, Caspersen and Beneficial began a 15-year effort to redeveloping Harbour Island into an upscale residential and commercial development similar to Baltimore, Maryland's Inner Harbor. Could you be more specific regarding the specific year they started this? Also, "effort to redeveloping" feels stilted to me; how about: "In the 1980s, Caspersen and Beneficial began to redevelop Harbour Island into an upscale residential and commercial development similar to Baltimore, Maryland's Inner Harbor, something that took them 15 years to complete."
Reply and fixes - I think I should rephrase it as "began a 15-year effort to redevelop" and remove the -ing -- it never was "completed", I don't have a specific year that it started, nor do I know what's the more accurate or intended definition of "start" (the initial idea? the completion of planning? the beginning of construction?) to be more specific.--ColonelHenry (talk) 04:33, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The source states that he purchased Harbour Island from a Beneficial subsidiary in 1979, and "broke ground" there in 1983. The source doesn't state if he had done any improvements between '79 and '83, and exactly when the 15 years ended, in '94 or '97. I think the solution is to say that when and from whom he purchased the island, and don't mention the 15 years. How about this instead: "Caspersen purchased Harbour Island from a Beneficial subsidiary in 1979, and in 1983, began to re-develop the island into an upscale residential and commercial development similar to Baltimore, Maryland's Inner Harbor." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 06:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
After seven years of dwindling business, Beneficial converted the it into office space and renamed it Knights Point in 1995. "The it"? Are you talking about the island itself? If so, how can you convert an island into office space? Please clarify.
As per MOS:PARAGRAPHS, the last 2 paragraphs are too short. I think that you can combine them, as long as you make a transition between the two ideas, something like: "Caspersen's next business acquisition was Knickerbocker Management, which he founded in 1998 with a few partners. Knickerbocker, a private investment firm that oversaw approximately $1 billion in assets of trusts and foundations, had offices in Gladstone, New Jersey and Hobe Sound, Florida."
In 2005, Caspersen sought a seat on the town commission in Jupiter Island, Florida, and ran on a platform concerning conservation and limiting development, and burying utility cables. I know you've already linked Jupiter Island in the lead, but I think you should also link it here, since it's the first time you mention it in the body. I don't think that "a platform concerning conservation" is accurate. How about putting a semi-colon after "Florida", and then: "...his platform focused on conservation, limiting development, and burying utility cables."
Barbara Caspersen serves as an emeritus trustee at Drew. The present tense usage here doesn't fit in with the past tense uses everywhere else. How about: "As of [year], Barbara Caspersen has served as..."
...a fact that Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and Harvard alumnus Daniel Golden attributes to their father's generosity. Again with the present tense usage. How about "has attributed" or "once attributed" or "in [year], attributed to"? Who is Golden and why did make this statement? Was he Caspersen's friend? And was it because their father financially supported all four in law school, or was it for another reason?
Done - Golden wrote a book critical of the legacy of privilege and wealth in elite universities. They were not friends--or even associated with each other. It comes down to Dad gave money to his alma mater and it bought his sons seats in their respective classes. Some sources actually go as far as claiming his sons were smart enough to get it on their own--a statement that is not appropriate to add to the article. I think I've clarified that in my revision.--ColonelHenry (talk) 06:02, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
2nd paragraph: I think that you could simply combine this paragraph with the first one.
In the weeks after his death, accounts of massive financial difficulties began to emerge. Needs to be more formal. How about: "In the weeks after his death, reports of Caspersen's financial difficulties began to emerge." "Massive" is both peacocky and unnecessary, since you describe the difficulties next.
Next sentence: Repetitive, since you already stated this, almost word-for-word, earlier. I think that you could remove the earlier sentence, since this is more about Caspersen's behavior before his death than his actual career.
Reply and addressed differently - It's a good suggestion, but I think the earlier mention should remain simply because it would be awkward not addressing the particulars of the resignation at that point since it's intrinsically connected to the political career, removing the first and keeping the second mention would make that fact seem rather disjunct and somewhat random/out-of-place without its context as the end of his career in elective office. After thinking about it, I opted to remove the second mention, since I'd venture to think the average reader would immediately pick up on the association between his pre-death behavior and the earlier mention of the "claim" he gave upon resigning.--ColonelHenry (talk) 04:57, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that you should rewrite the 4th paragraph; it's halting and awkward. How about: "Caspersen was facing legal difficulties as well. The American government began a crackdown on tax havens and offshore bank accounts used by wealthy Americans to evade paying taxes, and according to The New York Times, Caspersen's name had emerged in the government's investigations. It was reported that Caspersen's name was turned over to federal investigators by Swiss banking giant UBS earlier in the year, and in connection to Liechtenstein Global Trust (LGT), a private bank controlled with Liechtenstein’s royal family. Caspersen, who was reportedly facing audit by the Internal Revenue Service, was suspected of owing as much as $100 million in back taxes and fines or possibly facing imprisonment."
During his 20-year tenure, he is considered "the man who put American combined driving on the international map" as American riders and drivers earned 71 medals, including 25 gold, in the Olympics, World Championships, and Pan American Games. Tense problems; could be clearer. How about: "He was considered "the man who put American combined driving on the international map". During his 20-year tenure, American riders and drivers earned 71 medals, including 25 gold, in the Olympics, World Championships, and Pan American Games."
The Hamilton Farm property was owned by Beneficial and located next to the corporation's headquarters. You're missing "was" between "and" and "located".
In 2003, he pledged $30 million—the largest single donation in the school's history—to help jump-start the law school's capital campaign of which Caspersen was chairman. Awkward; how about: "In 2003, he was chairman of Harvard Law School's capital campaign, which he helped jump-start by pledging $30 million—the largest single donation in the school's history."
In his honour, a special collections room in the law school's Langdell Library bears the Caspersen name. I think this is a little redundant. How about: "The law school honored Caspersen by naming a special collections room in its Langdell Library after him." (BTW, this is an article about an American, so it should have American spelling.)
Also, in April 2012, Harvard dedicated part of a 250,000-square-foot multipurpose construction project as the Caspersen Student Center to house student organizations, journals, and social activities. Did both honors happen in 2012? If not, I don't think that you need the word "also". How about: "In April 2012, Harvard dedicated part of a 250,000-square-foot multipurpose construction project, which housed student organizations, journals, and social activities, to Caspersen, calling it "the Caspersen Student Center".
However, Harvard's decision to name the facilities after Caspersen was criticized, citing the alleged tax evasion. Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and Harvard alumnus Daniel Golden criticized that Caspersen's generosity to Harvard guaranteed his four sons admission at the law school. This could be improved, too. Plus, we see that Golden's above comments about Caspersen's generosity weren't complimentary. How about: "However, critics attacked Harvard's decision to name the facilities after Caspersen, citing the alleged tax evasion. Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and Harvard alumnus Daniel Golden claimed that Caspersen's generosity to Harvard guaranteed that his four sons were admitted to the law school.
Caspersen and his wife have been involved with Drew University. His wife has served as trustee (currently as an emeritus trustee) and as both chairwoman and vice-chairwoman of the Methodist-affiliated liberal arts college's board. I think that you could omit the first sentence, which would mean that you'd have to revise the second. Why is it important that you mention Drew's Methodist affliation? How about: "Barbara Caspersen has served as trustee (currently as an emeritus trustee) of Drew University and as both chairwoman and vice-chairwoman of the the college's liberal arts board."
In 1999, Caspersen and his wife provided a $5 million gift for expanding graduate education programs. Excuse me for my feminism, but I really don't like the phrase "and his wife". This sentence also needs some clarification; how about: "In 1999, the Caspersens provided a $5 million gift for expanding graduate education programs at Drew."
In honor of their service to the university, Drew renamed its Graduate School as the Caspersen School of Graduate Studies. "Graduate School" doesn't need to be capitalized, and what graduate program? The new name should be put in quotes, not italicized.
Reply - I was under the impression that we shouldn't use quotes because they can be misinterpreted as "scare quotes". I had chosen to italicize the things named after him and have done so consistently. During the GAN, the reviewer only asked that they be consistent. WP:MOSTITLE doesn't directly encourage or discourage this practice in this particular example. For which programs, I refer you to the Drew University article, in particular the Academics section.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:37, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The university's Rose Memorial Library houses a collection of books, manuscripts, artifacts and papers of Nebraska-born author Willa Cather (1873–1947) assembled from items given by several donors—including significant contributions by Caspersen and his wife. It is regarded as one of the best collection of Cather's papers assembled in the United States. I think you could improve this, too. How about: "The Caspersens were significant contributors to the university's Rose Memorial Library, which houses one of the best collections of books, manuscripts, artifacts and papers of Nebraska-born author Willa Cather (1873–1947) in the United States."
Reply I did not address this one because the suggested revision completely changes the tenor and purpose of the sentence, which is the Cather donations, instead the suggestion removes the focus on the donation of Cather's papers and focuses it on the library itself as the aim of their donation which is inaccurate.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:37, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Caspersen's donated funds to build a four-level annex to Brown University's historic John Carter Brown Library, dedicated in 1991, that was named in honor of his parents. Errors and clarity problems. How about: "In 1991, Caspersen [or the Caspersens] donated funds to build a four-level annex, named in honor of his parents, to Brown University's historic John Carter Brown Library."
Done - I rephrased to "dedicated in 1991" at the end, since I don't know when the money was "donated" but only know that the completed result of that donation were dedicated in that year.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:52, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Caspersen also served as a trustee of the Peddie School starting in 1970, and as the board's chairman starting in 1976, joining philanthropist Walter H. Annenberg in giving $10 million to the school in 1998. If Caspesen made the donation to Brown alone, you only need "he" here, and I don't see how being trustee and chairman are connected with his donation with Anneberg, unless it was how he bought himself on the board. If there's no connection, I suggest separating the phrases into independent sentences.
The Caspersen Campus Center, which opened in 1996, and Caspersen History House, dedicated 2006, were named in his honor. Again with the italicizing. Also, you should insert the word "in" before 2006.
Under his stewardship, the trust provided over $118 million in the 25-year period from 1976 to 2001. You already state that he worked with the trust starting in 1976, so you don't need to say it again. How about: "During the 25 years he worked with the trust, it donated over $118 million.
Okay, I believe that I am finished here. I'll accept Niikmaria's source spotchecks, and if you resolve all the above issues, I'll give my support. Thanks for educating me about an interesting figure. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:33, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I'll get the chance in the next day or so to address your concerns--been tied up with some IRL matters.--ColonelHenry (talk)
Support. Great article, nicely put together. I've made a couple of very minor tweaks here and there: feel free to rv if you disagree with anything. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment from Shoebox2
Support with pleasure. An elegantly written, very readable and well-organized article that despite falling well outside my usual sphere of interest caught and held my attention throughout. Shoebox2talk21:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment from Ian Rose
As I have a FAC of my own open right now I'm recusing myself from delegate duties here and there to review, so I'd like to take a look at this one in the next couple of days... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:33, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Have to say I found the prose quite clunky in places. Rather than write out every concern I've cut to the chase and copyedited, but of course ready to discuss the changes. Outstanding points in the meantime:
I'll leave the final decision to you but I don't think it's necessary to link to 'current' countries or national groups like Norwegians, Russians and Poles. Linking both Norwegians and Norway is especially overdoing it.
I assume "was graduated" is a valid Americanism -- I'd expect simply "graduated" otherwise.
Reply: A person doesn't graduate, the university graduates them to a degree. It's probably a little elitist to phrase it in the transitive sense (I prefer to avoid the intransitive vulgarism for the same reason that someone saying "I am an alumni" or "he was an alumni" or "referendums" irks me)--the student earned a degree, the school graduated them and the action was done unto the student.[25]. In another article, someone accused me of being "posh" for using the "was graduated" idiom--but the subject of that article was rather "posh" as well.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As a practising pedant I can hardly fault you there, its just that "graduated" is so common that I fear you'll have drive-by editors changing it anyway. Personally I don't mind if you leave it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:49, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My view is that language is what language does, and people do graduate, whatever the historical origins of the term. I worked in a university and saw hundreds of my students graduate, and indeed graduated several times myself, and in all the paperwork i ever saw, in all contexts, i never once saw reference to a university "graduating" someone. I would actually go so far as to say that such a formulation is incorrect because it is anachronistic (or is archaic? ;-)) Either way, I'd change it or, as Ian says, others will keep doing it. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:59, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: from American Heritage Dictionary: The verb graduate has denoted the action of conferring an academic degree or diploma since at least 1421. Accordingly, the action of receiving a degree should be expressed in the passive, as in She was graduated from Yale in 1998. This use is still current, if old-fashioned, and is acceptable to 78 percent of the Usage Panel. In general usage, however, it has largely yielded to the much more recent active pattern (first attested in 1807): She graduated from Yale in 1998. Eighty-nine percent of the Panel accepts this use. It has the advantage of ascribing the accomplishment to the student, rather than to the institution, which is usually appropriate in discussions of individual students. When the institution's responsibility is emphasized, however, the older pattern may still be recommended. A sentence such as The university graduated more computer science majors in 1997 than in the entire previous decade stresses the university's accomplishment, say, of its computer science program. On the other hand, the sentence More computer science majors graduated in 1997 than in the entire previous decade implies that the class of 1997 was in some way a remarkable group. •The Usage Panel feels quite differently about the use of graduate to mean “to receive a degree from,” as in She graduated Yale in 1998. Seventy-seven percent object to this usage. Chances are 77 percent of the Usage Panel graduated in 1930, but still. Anyone changes it, I change it back. Best part about it being on my watchlist.--ColonelHenry (talk) 10:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, i think you just made the best case against the formulation you are seeking to defend. The Americal Heritage Dictionary, a conservative institution by your comments, found greater consensus among its panel for the usage I have suggested, then it did for the formulation adopted in this article. Furthermore, it emphasises its appropriateness when the focus is on the individual receiving the degree rather than the operation of the University, and the former is the case in both instances in this article. I think if you try to revert a change of the term back to its current use, you'll hit an issue with WP:OWN and going against the kind of consensus implicit in the AHD figures. And, given the AHC has a stronger consensus for what i would term the contemporary use, i'm puzzled as to why your defending the more anachronistic one? hamiltonstone (talk) 12:58, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: Why...(1) "Accordingly, the action of receiving a degree should be expressed in the passive, as in She was graduated from Yale in 1998. This use is still current, if old-fashioned, and is acceptable to 78 percent of the Usage Panel." (2) "The Usage Panel feels quite differently about the use of graduate to mean “to receive a degree from,” as in She graduated Yale in 1998. Seventy-seven percent object to this usage." I don't know what about that is NOT clear. the use of "should" implies one option among several acceptable ones. This is usage I've chosen, this is the usage I'll maintain--just like that one editor whose only contribution is changing "comprised of" wherever he finds it--sorry, I have to stand for something--even against the vulgar debauching of the language by the herd. As for WP:OWN, I couldn't care less. It's usually the go-to policy in order to avoid debating the issue--much like a thought-terminating cliché. If someone mentions WP:OWN, they've lost the battle IMHO. --ColonelHenry (talk) 13:06, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I may have confused you. I wasn't arguing for the awful formulation "She graduated Yale", which the Panel rightly rejected: I'm arguing for the formulation that the largest proportion of the Panel recognised as acceptable and acknowledged was more prevalent in contemporary English: "She graduated from Yale". (just to be clear, i don't care about this as an FAC issue, but i don't understand why one would stick to a formulation that will trip up virtually every contemporary reader, because they won't have seen it before.)hamiltonstone (talk) 13:25, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And those are probably the same contemporary readers who say "I am an alumni of X university"...and probably majored in communications or exercise science or some other discipline lacking rigor. Sorry, it's elitist of me, but I don't think highly of them.--ColonelHenry (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
<Sigh> Why are you avoiding the central argument here: that the contemporary formulation was endorsed by the highest percentage of the AHC Panel and acknowledged as more currently prevalent, not merely adopted by apparently second-rate exercise scientists? I take it you do not dispute my other contention, that the formulation adopted here is seldom if ever used in contemporary writing? Where will our readers have seen it before? I would have thought we would avoid wording any WP article in a way that made it more difficult for a reader, when an alternative wording was available that was correct? I just don't get the point of that. hamiltonstone (talk) 13:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When you said "i don't care about this as an FAC issue", it indicated to me that no reply seemed to be required. As far as I'm concerned, you have wasted my time arguing about the usage of "was graduated" vs. "graduated"--only an absolute drooling moron would be confused and most people would neither notice nor care about the difference. Your argument is specious and tedious since in the presence of several acceptable options, I take the liberty to choose one and I chose one--and thus am well within my right to say "piss off" if someone insists I forgo my perfectly valid choice to choose another based on a matter of preference. Therefore, I am done with this. I don't care if you didn't get the answer you wanted. --ColonelHenry (talk) 15:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed "were" added to complete the proper usage. If I really wanted to be a stickler, it was formerly preferred to say "was graduated at" instead of "from" or less "by", or muttered something about "was" and vestiges of Latin's ablative case in English.--ColonelHenry (talk) 10:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and Harvard alumnus Daniel Golden claimed that Caspersen's generosity to Harvard guaranteed that his four sons were admitted to the law school" -- this was highlighted in a previous section, does it deserve two mentions?
Reply: I mentioned it to reiterate Golden's context--however, while anticipating a reader might forget the context, I haven't been happy with this. I'd be glad to change this--the sole reason I haven't fixed it/revised it is that I've been at a loss despite my displeasure for what other, better options there could be to replace this. Can you think of a better way to accomplish the reestablishment of the context without the needless repetition? --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really think of a "non-repetitive" way of putting it because it's the same point in two places. Because the second mention leapt out at me, I do feel you can do without it. It's true the accusation could legitimately be mentioned in either spot but to me it seems more appropriate under Personal life, where you discuss his sons' education for the first time. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:49, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Caspersen [or the Caspersens] donated funds" -- I'm sure you haven't used this equivocal language lightly but I'd hope we could improve it for an FA-class article; can we say funds were donated in his name, for instance, which would seem to cover things?
Reply: - the more prominent implication in the States when someone says "funds were donated in his name" is that someone else did the donating and that the funds were not his. I don't know where that bracketed parenthetical came from, so I removed it from the text.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Lastly, back to the lead, as this is a content question as well as a prose one: I tweaked the sentence about his suicide in the lead as it just read abruptly to me the way it was; I also found it a bit odd that after you describe it as a surprise (and I don't doubt it was) there seem to be no expressions of shock mentioned/cited when you discuss his death in the main body... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:26, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: That tweak is o.k. with me--it is a good rationale. All deaths are a surprise, suicides all the more--so the implication is there already without having to be reminded of it. All surprises, I have learned, are primarily a form of violence.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
One new point: I noticed "honour" in the lead -- shouldn't this be written in AmEng? You might need to check the whole thing for other instances. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:49, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reply/Done - I'll alter the honours to honor (there were 4 iterations), but I've never been partial to the exclusionary rationale of the strong national ties suggestions (all predicated on the deontic modality of "should")[26].--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the centenary year of the beginning of World War I, I decided to expand and polish some old bios of participants in that conflict, in light of newly available sources. This article on the second-highest scoring ace of the Australian Flying Corps is my first attempt. Like his great friend and fellow No. 4 Squadron ace Harry Cobby, King's aerial combat lasted barely nine months, making his achievements all the more remarkable. He also did some newsworthy things as a civil pilot in the early 1920s before settling down with an engineering business and a young family, until again putting on the uniform, this time for the RAAF in World War II. Thanks to everyone who took part in the recent MilHist A-Class Review, and in advance to all who comment here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Dan, fine w. your edits. FTR, it occurred to me while reviewing those changes that the significance of the balloons could stand some explaining so I've added/tweaked a bit there. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:44, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Elwyn_R_King_A03717.JPG: when/where was this first published? Same with File:E02661Cobby1918.jpg, File:E04146JonesAFC.jpg
Not stated in the Australian War Memorial source files.
File:P00826.128Snipe1918.jpg: even though the Australian government thinks this is PD, that doesn't mean that they were the copyright holders who released it, nor does it necessarily mean this is PD in the US - the second licensing tag needs replacing, unless we can show that the photographer was a government employee. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:07, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how such a shot would originate with anyone but an official Australian photographer but it's not specified; I can replace with PD-1996, which in fact is what I'd normally use for a pre-1946 AWM image anyway. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:37, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, As this is a biography I would state the age at which King died, so the reader doesn't have to jump back to the beginning of the article, note the DOB/DOD, do math, and return just to put the context of his age into the narrative. Besides, stating the man's age has a certain ring to it in terms of who the person was. The DOB/DOD by itself does not, imo. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, Re: Featured Articles. I'm not sure what the 'expectation' is for the bibliography and citations, but I noticed that none of the citations are linked (with |ref= and ref link) to their respective listing in the bibliography, while most of the citations spell out the name of the book, external link, etc, each and every time a given citation is used. To get an idea of how this is often remedied, look at the References in the Tadeusz Kosciuszko article. e.g. Every time Storozynski is used for a citation, only the author's name, year and page number are used, while the citation links to the source in the Bibliography where the book title is spelled out only once (and any external PDF link is listed only once, not every time it's used for a cite -- I counted 17 external pdf links in the text.) This convention is esp handy if the title, links, etc are lengthy. However, as I said, I'm not sure if this Bibliography/citation convention is expected of FA's, but I thought I'd mention it for your consideration -- so other than that, the article looks good to go. If you like, I could make the conversion. Since this is only a citation convention, not a content dispute, I don't think it would make the article unstable if we made the change and were quick about it. (i.e.one editing session) I've done this for numerous articles and could do it with my eyes closed and would be more than happy to (in my sandbox first) if there is approval from the major contributor(s). -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your considered comment. I think I can safely say from long experience as a writer, reviewer and coordinator at FAC that the prime expectation for FAs re. referencing is internal consistency. Generally speaking, the style I employ here is the style I've employed on dozens of similar articles as I find it clear in appearance and straightforward to implement. The PDFs for citations is deliberate. The Australian War Memorial has been kind enough to digitise the official histories of Australia in both World Wars, chapter by chapter. So the link to each official history you find in the References section is to the book as a whole, but the links in the Notes section are to individual chapters, which I think makes it simpler for anyone spotchecking sources. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Article is well written with a wide range of sources, new and old. With a reservation about the bibliography/citation convention used, the article is FA material. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about a live jazz album by pianist Thelonious Monk's quartet. It was Monk's first successful live recording, while the album's title referred to his reputation as an enigmatic, challenging musician at the time. Short article, of moderate importance, at least in jazz. Print sources were derived from GoogleBooks previews, such as this one of Charles Fox's "Jazz and Swing" piece in Gramophone magazine that is cited in the article. If a reviewer requests, I can find whichever is needed for verification purposes. Dan56 (talk) 06:13, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Tezero
Background comes in a little late in the game; it starts with "After returning to the New York City club scene with his new quartet" without mentioning where Monk had been before or with whom he had been playing.
"It comprises a single chorus." - Strange wording; if it only appears once, it's not much of a chorus. If you mean that it only includes a chorus repeated over and over again, keep the wording but add "repeated at length" or something to the end.
Per Wikipedia:FACR 2.c, the references should be made to follow one of the two different formats currently in place. My personal preference is to use the shortened-entry style found in the earlier footnotes, rather than the full-citation style found in many of the later ones, but the main thing is that they should be consistent. I also applaud your use of the term "Bibliography" for the alphabetical list of sources, and urge you to resist any suggestion to change this to "Sources", "References", or the like. If you take my advice, the full-length citations in those later notes should be moved to your bibliography, where they will provide a convenient way for the reader to survey the sources you have used, in an alphabetical list instead of helter-skelter throughout the footnotes. Otherwise, I would say this article looks very handsome indeed.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:16, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's the right idea, though it looks like you have got about four more to do. For unsigned items, it is customary to use "Anon." in authpr-date citations, although it is also possible to invoke a "corporate author". The main problem with doing this is that some items may resist such identification, and once you have got one "Anon." in the list, anything else without a personal name looks odd. In case of items without a date of publication, use "n.d." (for "no date"). If you find there are several "Anon." items with the same year, differentiate them with added letter (e.g., "Anon. 1856a", "Anon. 1856b", etc.). I notice also that you have got one item in the bibliography with "et al." This abbreviation should only be used in inline citations, for items with more than three authors. The listing in the bibliography should list all of them before the year of publication. I'm afraid you are on your own dealing with the "sfn" template in such cases, however. I have no experience with this.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I missed anything, done! The All Music Guide books that have the "et al." have about a hundred writers ([29]), so I don't know how I could list them all--I chose only Planer because his review/piece from page 895 is being cited. Also, Jerome, do the bibliography items require "Anon." or "n.d."? Dan56 (talk) 05:42, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay in responding. The All Music Guide book that you name is an example of what is called a "collective work". That is, it includes signed articles from a large number of contributors, all under the editorship of just three people: Vladimir Bogdanov, Chris Woodstra, and Stephen Thomas Erlewine. This is similar to references such as the New Grove Dictionary of Opera or the German MGG. When citing a specific article from such a book, you should put that author's name and the article title (enclosed in quotation marks) in the bibliography, followed by the title of the collective work (italicized), and the editors of the volume. In a reference work with the articles arranged alphabetically by title, it is optional to add the inclusive page numbers of the article, though in this case it may be advisable to do so. I believe you are citing two different articles from the All Music Guide, and so you should have two different entries in the bibliography. Because this particular book collects together "reviews" of individual albums, you may need to modify this simple plan a little bit. Planer on 895, I imagine (GoogleBooks won't let me view that page) must be an album review (of Misterioso?) within the article on Thelonious Monk, and so the entry should look something like:
Planer, Lindsay (2002), "Thelonious Monk: Misterioso". All Music Guide to Jazz: The Definitive Guide to Jazz Music, fourth edition, edited by Vladimir Bogdanov, Chris Woodstra, and Stephen Thomas Erlewine, 895. San Francisco: Backbeat Books. ISBN9780879307172.
Since you are using citation templates with which I am unfamiliar, the exact results may differ somewhat, but in general this should give you the idea. In this case it is incorrect to add "et al." to Planer's name, since she is the sole author of the album review, and note that author names should only be inverted when they are being used for alphabetization purposes. This is why many bibliographical templates have fields both for "author name" on the one hand and "last name" and "first name" on the other. In the above example, the editors' names should be in normal name order; inverting them only creates chaos for the reader.
I am not sure what you mean by your question about whether bibliography items require "Anon." or "n.d.". These are placeholders for items that do not give an author's name or year of publication, respectively, and are therefore used in both inline citations and bibliography entries. Indeed, you should be unable to link from one to another with the "sfn" template, unless they appear in both locations. I currently see six anonymous items in your bibliography: the first two entries, and the four beginning with "Misterioso OJCCD 206 2" and ending with the Original Jazz Classics Collector's Guide. Some of these are undated, and so should have "n.d." The others should have their year of publication, like this in the inline citation for the Original Jazz Classics Collector's Guide: "Anon. 1995" and like this in the bibliography: "Anon. (1995)". Needless to say, they should be alphabetized under A for "Anon.", just as if this were an actual author name, and then sorted by year of publication. You can place the "n.d." items either all before or all after the dated ones, but if there are two or more, it will be necessary to distinguish them with subordinate letters, just as you would do for two items from the same year by the same author (e.g., "Smith 1911a; Smith 1911b", therefore "Anon. n.d.(a); Anon. n.d.(b)").—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:30, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Much better. I've fixed the alphabetization problem, and added the missing letters differentiating the three "Anon. n.d." entries. The author last name and date should appear exactly the same in the inline refs and the bibliography. This raises a further issue: I presume the inclusion of a day and month within the parentheses in some of the bibliography entries is forced by the template. Author-date citations should display only the year but, if they have got more than that in the bibliography, then so should they in the inline (i.e., footnote) author-date references.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry to be so difficult, but at least some of those items require the month, season, or even exact date to differentiate different issues of magazines and the like, all of which within one year may have, for example, page 23s. The normal bibliographic layout is to put the month (or day and month, in the case of weekly magazines or daily newspapers) in parentheses following the title of the publication or, if a volume and/or issue number is given, after that information. When both volume and issue are given for a magazine or journal, this is optional, for for popular magazines and newspapers, volume and issue numbers are rarely available. It is in these cases that the more exact publication date become crucial—it just doesn't belong up front with the author's name and year of pubication.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's not problem at all--after all, this is the place to dot my article's I's and cross its T's. Is this in line with your point, Jerome Kohl? I restored some of the full dates I had removed from those popular magazines and newspapers (who did not have both volume and issue information) but I placed the full dates in an "Issue" parameter instead so they don't appear where they would have if placed in the "Date"/"Year" parameter. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant. You're getting the idea. The only remaining problem is that you should not duplicate the year in the "issue" field—just the month, or the day and month where that is appropriate (as in the Village Voice items, for example).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:05, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, everything that really matters is now done and dusted. There are some optional things you might want to consider, in the following six entries:
Anon. (1959). "Thelonious Monk". Down Beat (Chicago) 26 (16)
Christgau, Robert (2005). "Noise on Music Central". The Village Voice (February 22) (New York). Archived from the original on April 12, 2013. Retrieved April 11, 2013
Fox, Charles (1964). "Jazz and Swing". Gramophone (London) 42 (August).
Giddins, Gary (1976). "Two Labels Pull Out the Old Bottles". The Village Voice (September 20) (New York).
Hentoff, Nat (1959). "Thelonious Monk Quartet – Misterioso". Hi Fi Review2 (May)
O'Meally, Robert G. (1997). "Jazz Albums as Art: Some Reflections". In Bowles, Juliette. The International Review of African American Art14 (1). Hampton University Museum.
Schuller, Gunther (1958). "Thelonious Monk". The Jazz Review (New York) (November)
First, the places of publication given for all of these except Hi Fi Review are not usual, unless there are two or more journals (or newspapers) of the same name that need to be differentiated. Second, there is a sort of "rule of thumb" in bibliographies that page numbers are mandatory for scholarly journals, but are not used with popular magazines (Forbes, Radio Times, etc.). I would judge most of these to be popular magazines, so the lack of inclusive page numbers is acceptable, but I am confused by the last entry, which looks like a scholarly journal, but is attributed to an author (Bowles Juliette). If this person is the editor of a journal titled The International Review of African American Art, then she should not be named (editors of journals are never named in bibliographies); on the other hand, if she is the editor of a collective work of that title (a book, that is), published by the Hampton University Museum, then a place of publication is needed ("Hampton, VA", presumably) and the funny "volume/issue" stuff is probably an error and should be removed. Is it a book, or a journal? The formatting should make this clear. (I rally can't believe this is as complicated as it actually is. I did this kind of thing for sixteen years, and it is all quite automatic to me. You must be going mad!)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:45, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Since "Reissues" is a fairly short section, perhaps you could restructure the article with "Release and reissues" and "Critical reception" sections?
"Release and reception" is structured chronologically, so to merge that paragraph from "Reissues" or splice it into "Release and reception" would interrupt the flow, topically and chronologically, at least in every configuration of a merge I considered. Dan56 (talk) 07:43, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the "Release history" section, you might be interested in putting the references in a separate row, although that is purely a matter of personal preference and is certainly not a make-or-break deal.
These are all very minor suggestions, and I trust that you will address them all as necessary, and I will give my support to the nomination. Good work! WikiRedactor (talk) 21:29, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Recording and production" section: I think "in 1958" should be added to the end of the first sentence. It gives context to the July 9 and August 7 dates that follow without years.
"Release and reception" section: is there a reason why the album ratings template is not used? Not that it has to be there, I'm just curious.
Only the two All Music writers gave it a score, so there's nothing to "supplement" if the two scores are mentioned in prose. Plus, it makes room for an image of Griffin. Dan56 (talk) 09:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Some minor suggestions. Other than that, the article meets the WP:FACR criteria for prose and style very well indeed. Focused on the lead section and went through all the refs that were freely accessible online.
WP:FACR 2a: the lead section doesn't sufficiently explain how/why this record stands out from the rest of Thelonious Monk recordings. In the revision from Feb24 there was still a line "It was his first successful live recording." It was later removed. Would like to see something to the same effect, if possible.
In the lead section: "After most of his original ensemble had departed... he returned with his new quartet". If you separate the lead section from the rest of the article, the reader is expected to understand why the old lineup was notable enough to be mentioned in the introduction before the actual recording ensemble. I'd highlight the ensemble from the second residence here and leave the detailed explanation of lineup changes to the actual article below.
Background section: The Kelley book (p. 239) says about Coltrane: "Coltrane was also ready to move on. Miles wanted him back and Trane himself was considering a solo career". Wiki:" while Coltrane left because Miles Davis wanted him to return to his own group." I suppose it is common knowledge that he went back to Davis, but the ref "Kelley (1995) p. 239" isn't saying so. Could this be made more precise?
It was originally "in pursuit of a solo career" in the article, before another editor revised it here. I assumed he was going to review here as well, but if not, would the original revision--"in pursuit of a solo career"--suffice? Dan56 (talk) 03:52, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Coltrane was back with Davis in January 1958, but he recorded Soultrane in February 1958 and kept recording and releasing his own work while with Davis until April 1960. I understand why Kelley wanted to highlight both joining Davis and his solo plans, as both avenues existed and were notable in Coltrane's career. Could both of those be combined here? --Sk4170 (talk) 11:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Schuller 1958 is here Couldn't find the explanation to the album title there. Is it the correct version of the full review or is there something missing? Hard to say, as the Google Books version is not accessible.
The title track "Misterioso" "first recorded in 1948". I wonder if it's worth clarifying here that there indeed was an early Monk recording of the piece for Blue Note. The ref "Kurtz 2008" says that "it was recorded by The Seer in 1948". I have no idea what "The Seer" is, other than confusing.
Kurtz had been referring to The Seer (the painting used for this album cover) as an artistic representation/metaphor for Monk at the beginning of his review for Jazz.com. Kurtz was being fanciful, but he was referring to Monk in that sentence too. Dan56 (talk) 03:52, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't clear enough, Kurtz' fanciful play with words managed to confuse me! What I was trying to say, when looking for the missing Down Beat ref from Google Books, I found a Down Beat review (Down Beat June 17, 1949, p.14) of a single release "Misterioso/Humph" (tracks listed in this order) from The Thelonious Monk Reader (p. 32) and was wondering if something like this "first recorded for Blue Note in 1948") was an improvement. --Sk4170 (talk) 11:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I looked up p. 32 at GoogleBooks, but couldn't find where it said that it was recorded in 1948. Is the recording year on a different page? Either way, I've added a different source to verify the improvement you've suggested. Dan56 (talk) 21:31, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Beginning in July.." -> "beginning in July 1957" to clarify the timing of his first residence, as it is at the beginning of a paragraph.
In the Composition section: "one of Monk's newer compositions at the time", Keepnews 1959: "There is one new piece: Blues Five Spot". I think it is more correct to say like Keepnews that there was one new composition on this record. --Sk4170 (talk) 11:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Everything in this album is over five decades 'old'. This track was 'new' in comparison to the rest of the tracks on the record. It's good as it is now. --Sk4170 (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I kept reading the Reissues section over and again thinking something was missing, until I realized that only the 2012 release is mentioned there, but the first digitally remastered album release with two bonus tracks from 1989 is not. Both releases are included in the Release history table below, but I feel that both should be mentioned in the Reissues section, too. Without checking the table, it suggests that Tarantino remastered the recording in 1989 and it wasn't released until 2012. --Sk4170 (talk) 11:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Added "also" to "On May 15, 2012, Concord Music Group also reissued the album"--"remastered on CD" suggests it was a reissue as well. Dan56 (talk) 21:31, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To me, this sentence "In 1989, Misterioso was digitally remastered on CD by mastering engineer Joe Tarantino, who used 20-bit K2 Super Coding System technology at Fantasy Studios in Berkeley, California" describes the remastering process, who did it, when, where and how. That's why it didn't occur to me that the release info was already in there. --Sk4170 (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, indeed, Dan56! I added a couple of comments above, a new one regarding the Keepnews ref, and one more thing from my notes that I forgot to bring here. --Sk4170 (talk) 11:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of comments above, Dan56. I wasn't able to verify all the refs due to restrictions at Google Books. Perhaps someone else can. Here's the list:
The snippet verifies the above, but not the year 1959 in the release history table. Is it correct to assume that p. 56 is about Down Beat's 1959 jazz critic's choices of records released the same year? Using that as a source for the release year is perhaps a little random. --Sk4170 (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Kelley p. 243" verifies only "Keepnews returned to the venue on August 7". No word of attendance, nor whether it was an evening show or matinee or whatever. I suggest replacing the ref with "Anon 1995 p.70" where "over-crowded" and "recording equipment" are mentioned and moving "Kelley p. 243" right after "August 7". --Sk4170 (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hentoff's critic was verifiable from the Google Books snippet view, with some effort. However, couldn't verify the release year detail. I couldn't see the release date from the snippets and can't assume the release year of the publication is also the release year of the record. Could that ref be replaced with something else. --Sk4170 (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! Absolutely appreciate you pointing that out! Major change--found a better source, which verifies 1958 as the release year. Dan56 (talk) 23:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Um, there's a space where the release year should be, unlike most other entries there (Anon 2001 p. 304). Also Monk in Action has no release year listed there. But I found something better! Googled with "Riverside RLP 279" and found "Monk, T. Quartet Misteriose" (yes, the spelling is incorrect) listed in the "LP new releases" section on the Billboard Magazine December 1, 1958 issue (p. 41). Is it safe to assume that it was released in time for the Christmas market, and this entry on Billboard magazine is not advance info on a 1959 release. On a different note, the "Hentoff 1959" ref is still there: "Misterioso was released in 1958 by Riverside" in the Release and Reception section. --Sk4170 (talk) 13:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In that particular book, the space implies its the last year listed above it (for consecutive entries), but doesn't matter at this point--great find! I've added it, Sk4170, and removed the Hentoff cite from "Release and reception" ([30]). Dan56 (talk) 21:43, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see that you changed the Misterioso release date to the date of this Billboard issue that I was lucky to find from Google Books. Are you sure about this ??? I don't know how things were done back in the day, but as long as there is no solid release date for the record given in any of the sources we've been able to read this far, isn't it a little bold to assume it was released on the same day it was mentioned on Billboard mag new releases page. I think it's good evidence on the release year being 1958 instead of 1959, but are you really sure it's the actual date? --Sk4170 (talk) 04:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't verify the page# of the publication. Again, Fox's review is used as reference to release year in the Release history table. Could that be replaced with something more appropriate. --Sk4170 (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fox: "Although this LP was recorded — 'live' (as the saying goes) at the Five Spot Cafe in Nov York — in August 1958, it has never been issued here before. It's hard to know just why there has been this delay, for the music is well up to standard." (p. 202). Best source available for UK release. Dan56 (talk) 23:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Tenor saxophonist Johnny Griffin's hard-driving style perfectly fit pianist-composer Thelonious Monk's music and their 1958 quartet (with bassist Ahmed Abdul-Malik and drummer Roy Haynes) was well documented during one night at the Five Spot Cafe; a second CD (Thelonious in Action) is take from the same evening. Of the two releases, this one gets the edge due to Griffin's memorable improvising on a heated version of 'In Walked Bud.' Other highlights include 'Nutty,' 'Let's Cool One' and 'Evidence.'"
Thanks, Dan56! Mystery about no access, but now "Yanow 2001" is checked. Added some comments (diff), i.e. on Hentoff 1959/Anon 2001/release year issue above. Once those two points are fixed, I can give my strong support for this fine article. --Sk4170 (talk) 13:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good job! Here's my strong Support for this article. Thanks for asking me to review this Dan56, it's been an interesting journey into the world of Thelonious Monk. --Sk4170 (talk) 13:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Spike Wilbury
I'm interested in the Giddins article from which you extract "hard bop" as a genre. I was unable to find this article, even in library databases that index Village Voice back to that year. Can you provide more information on this article, including page number, and how you obtained it? Is there a scan of it online somewhere? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 21:45, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I cited "hard bop" on back in June, when I found the Village Voice article through Google News Archive, before it was shut down in December (Google_News_Archive#History). Fortunately, though, I was able just now to use google.com/newspapers to find it again ([31]). As far as verification, in discussing the albums recorded by Monk--naming Thelonious in Action and Misterioso from the Five Spot recording by Keepnews--and other Keepnews-produced jazz artists on Riverside Records, he writes, "With few exceptions, the music is East Coast or Chicago style hard bop." Dan56 (talk) 00:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Dan, I skimmed the article and didn't see anything of obvious concern, but I'm afraid I didn't get a chance to scrutinize it to the point that I would feel comfortable supporting. Sorry! --Spike Wilbury (talk) 14:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Binksternet
Clunky prose repetition of "twenty years of career struggles and obscurity" in the lead section and " twenty years of career struggles and obscurity" in the article body. Same with "vividly" and "enthusiastic crowd". The lead section should not repeat the article text! Rather, it should summarize article text.
I don't see any guideline that says material can't be repeated in the lead. If anything, I've found "... the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body..." (WP:LEADCITE). Dan56 (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Featured articles are supposed to contain prose that rises significantly above the average. If clunky repetition is to be defended rather than fixed then my !vote is to oppose the FAC. Binksternet (talk) 04:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure the guideline I cited had the average article in mind. Could you please tell me where it says, if anywhere, that something that's in the body cannot be repeated in the lead? "Released in 1958 by Riverside Records" should be excluded as well? This, along with the "twenty years of..." (important as background), seem like significant enough points to include in the lead. The sentence with "vividly" and "enthusiastic crowd" would be significant since this is a live album and the atmosphere or setting would be of great interest to readers, especially since the background section discusses the venue and Monk there. Again, significance I suppose can be debatable, but I don't feel like words being repeated a few times in the lead is an issue, especially if no guidelines or policies don't look at it as an issue. Dan56 (talk) 05:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline WP:LEAD says to summarize; it does not say to repeat. The strict following of the WP:LEAD guideline should have been a requirement for this article to attain GA. More to the point, the guideline WP:Featured article criteria seeks "engaging" prose, even "brilliant" prose. The repetition of such words is clunky prose. If you want to keep the repetition, then you are holding the article back from FA quality, and I will not recommend it be promoted. You are free to choose. Binksternet (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then there's a conflict with how WP:LEADCITE is worded and what different editors find to be engaging prose per WP:FAC. I don't see how repetition of a few words disqualifies something as a summary per WP:LEAD--naturally, a summary will repeat at least some words, and the "According to Keepnews" bit isn't even repeated in whole. Would these tweaks suffice? Dan56 (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What do you say aloud when discussing the group of Miles Davis? Do you pronounce it as "Miles Davises group" or "Miles Daviss group"? If the latter then no change is necessary. If the former then it should be written "Miles Davis's group", with the apostrophe followed by an ess.
Some textual separation should be introduced to tell the reader that Monk's "Just a Gigolo" is not quoted within the song "In Walked Bud". The context is that the previous paragraph was about a single song which contained quoted bits of other songs. The reader now expects the next paragraph to be about one song with inserted quotes of another song. The reader should be told that "In Walked Bud" has ended, and a new song has begun, the solo piano piece.
But it says "the only song on the album", and there's no mention of "quoting" in the paragraph. Furthermore, the track listing makes this evident--I don't see how a reader would make that mistake. Dan56 (talk) 05:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hentoff did not really "pan" the saxophone playing of Griffin. It's true that he writes "There is, for one thing, too little space for Monk's soloing and somewhat too much for tenor saxophonist Johnny Griffin." He continues by saying Griffin is "impressive by means of his unabashedly emotional 'cry' and his excellent timing. He does not always, however, convincingly tie together solos as long as those he takes here. He has improved in that the sustained cohesion of his solos in 'Misterioso' [the tune] is particularly memorable." Hentoff's review is mixed, not wholly negative.
I did not use the word "pan" or "negative" anywhere in the article, apart from the photo caption, which did not have it either until I responded to this edit summary raised by another editor. Dan56 (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hentoff's review does not say that Griffin's "cry" and "timing" are the features which "diminish his solos." Rather, Griffin's failure to tie together his solos is related to their lengthiness, per Hentoff.
I wouldn't agree than him saying "as long as those" means the length of the solos is a point of criticism, but I hope this change will suffice as a safe assumption. Dan56 (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is somewhat presumptive to provide the reader with a piped link to Musical development inside the quote from Fox: "attempt at development". In any case, wikilinks are deprecated within quotes.
Fox in his review does not really "pan" Griffin either; it's more mixed. He says that Griffin is "something of a virtuoso in his own unbuttoned way" but that Griffin "never really integrates himself" into Monk's quartet. Fox says "the result is that most of these performances [the tunes on the album] tend to be outings for Johnny Griffin rather than examples of Monk the composer. Which is all right in one way, for Griffin has an infectious exuberance about him." Elsewhere Fox says that Griffin is "prolix" (long-winded) on the album, and thus has "overshadowed" Monk's playing. So Griffin is a virtuoso with infectious exuberance... this is not entirely negative.
I did not use the word "pan" or "negative" anywhere in the article, apart from the photo caption, which did not have it either until I responded to this edit summary raised by another editor. Dan56 (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not enough is explained about the partner recording Thelonious in Action being released "first", despite both albums being released in 1958. How much time passed between the release dates? What was the reception of Thelonious in Action? Or was it still too early to know what people thought of Thelonious in Action, when Misterioso was released? Certainly more can be found written about the comparison of these two albums.
As the above editor's comments might show, sources for the release year, let alone date, are scarce and some inconsistent. The sources that discuss Misterioso in-depth do not touch on these points. For that reason, I don't think it's very relevant to this article. There wasn't even a source that explicitly says whether Misterioso was well received or not by critics, only the handful of reviews I was able to mine from GoogleBooks. Dan56 (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the photo caption: "Johnny Griffin's playing on the album was panned by contemporary critics, but praised in later reviews." Contemporary critics gave Griffin a mixed review. Binksternet (talk) 18:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's been a week since the seventh and last support was given by a reviewer. GrahamColm, would it be fair to say or at least appropriate to ask whether a consensus has been built? Dan56 (talk) 05:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Brandt Luke Zorn
Support but quick notes:
I think the first sentence of the Composition section merits a quick description of hard bop for a jazz novice.
None of the sources on this article's topic discuss hard bop, and a quick GoogleBooks search (and a look at the hard bop article) explain it as something in relation to bebop, which wouldn't really help readers any more than just leaving "hard bop" linked to its Wikipedia article for jazz novices to look there. Dan56 (talk) 22:23, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's fine then.
"... critic Nat Hentoff said that the album is "not one of his best" and observed "too little space for Monk's soloing and somewhat too much" for Griffin, whose saxophone cry and timing are more impressive than his solos." There appears to be a misplaced quotation mark, double check.
This article is about what is probably the greatest ever Zimbabwean sports team—the women's hockey team at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, which despite being assembled less than a month before the Games won the gold medal without losing a match. Of course most of the best teams were not there because of the Western boycott, but the Zimbabwean victory was still a great shock. This is a really great, uplifting story that I thoroughly enjoyed researching. The team flew to Moscow on a plane without seats, usually used for carrying meat, and arrived without the right shoes to play on the artificial field. Pat McKillop, a Bulawayo housewife, scored six goals in five games to be the competition's joint top-scorer. Sally Mugabe promised each of the "Golden Girls" an ox each on their return home, but in the end they got polystyrene packages of meat instead. Whether or not this was a sardonic attempt at gallows humour is not recorded.
I feel this article meets the standards regarding prose, neutrality, sourcing, completeness and so forth and am therefore nominating it. I hope you enjoy reading it and look forward to your comments. —Cliftonian(talk)20:09, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Cliftonian. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: A nice little article. Reads very nicely and looks to be comprehensive. An unusual story! Just a few minor comments from me. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:50, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
”began to help fill the gaps the U.S.-led Olympic boycott”: Maybe it’s me, but the punctuation looks a bit off in “U.S.-led”; but it could well be the correct way to punctuate this.
”Zimbabwe's subsequent undefeated victory in the round-robin tournament with three wins and two draws was widely regarded as a huge upset”: I understand the meaning here, but “undefeated victory” sounds a little silly; I think just “Zimbabwe's subsequent victory in the round-robin tournament with three wins and two draws was [widely - do we need this?] regarded as a huge upset”
”it had been excluded from the 1968, 1972 and 1976 Games for political reasons.”: Could we say briefly what those political reasons were; mainly for anyone who doesn’t know the story and is too lazy to check.
OK, have added "following the mostly white government's declaration of independence from Britain in 1965". I think going into the specifics of the issue regarding sport would be too complicated to deal with here. The Rhodesian sports teams were, unlike South Africa's, multiracial; the point at hand at least from Britain's point of view was that Rhodesia was in their view illegitimate after UDI in 1965. There was rather ironically a period when the British considered it more acceptable for teams to tour South Africa than Rhodesia, even though the former had apartheid and the latter didn't. There's plenty more details in the article linked to in the article. —Cliftonian(talk)14:21, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
”whose brother was international cricketer Duncan Fletcher.”: I think this is better as “the international cricketer”
”Two points would be awarded for a win and one for a draw; the team with the most points at the end would be the winner.”: I wonder if this would be better as “Two points were awarded…”?
”Zimbabwe were one of the teams in the first ever women's Olympic hockey match, playing against Poland on 25 July.”: Maybe this would be better as “Zimbabwe played in the first women’s Olympic hockey match, facing Poland on 25 July”?
”scored the first goal in women's Olympic hockey”: Given the previous sentence, I don’t think we need to say “in women’s Olympic hockey”; this is clearly implied.
I've put "sports historians have called it a "fairytale" and an "irresistible fairy story"". We can redraw to put the names of the people if you like but I feel this would be a little clunky myself. —Cliftonian(talk)14:21, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Leaning to support – An enjoyable article, which it will be is a pleasure to support. Just four comments, though one of them is rather fundamental:
I wondered what on earth "field hockey" was till I read on. It seems, on further enquiry, to be a North Americanism to distinguish hockey from ice-hockey. To an English reader it seems a long-winded way of saying "hockey". We have been calling it "hockey" since at least 1527, and as, to judge from the Harare Herald clipping you link to, the Zimbabweans call it "hockey" rather than "field hockey" I think you ought to as well, in both the title and the text.
You are correct. I call it hockey myself (as did all the players, so far as I know), and I did use the simpler term "hockey" in many places in the article, but I think referring to "field hockey" in the first instance in the article is important to avoid ambiguity—not all readers will be Zimbabweans, Brits, et al.—and also because that was (and is) the official name of the Olympic event. I understand this objection and sympathise somewhat with your view but I think in the circumstances we should keep the title as it is. It is just one extra word and in the prose itself almost every usage has "hockey" rather than "field hockey". —Cliftonian(talk)18:18, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am rather split myself on this one but I cannot help but think changing this to bring it out of step with all the other relevant articles would be a losing battle from a start. —Cliftonian(talk)18:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Oxford English Dictionary hyphenates "vice captain", and so would I.
"massive underdogs" – I don't think the condition of being an underdog is governed by size. If you need to qualify the noun (which I'm not sure you do) perhaps "serious" or another adjective might be nearer the mark.
Thanks for this. I have gone with "serious"; I think it is important to make clear that they did not expect to even come close to winning. —Cliftonian(talk)18:18, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"both of Zimbabwe's victories" – is the "of" wanted?
Thank you very much for the kind words and the review, Tim—as always very much appreciated. I'm glad you enjoyed the article and I hope my replies above are to your satisfaction. Have a great rest of the week —Cliftonian(talk)18:18, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit bothered by the redlinks in the lead, which stand out rather. I know they are potential links to as-yet unborn articles on those countries' field hockey teams; I'm prepared to bet that in the normal run of events they will remain unborn for the foreseeable future. The best solution would be for you to create stub articles for these hockey teams. The links would then turn blue alongside those for India and the USSR, and readers less cogniscent with WP practices would not have to wonder why these countries were represented in bright red.
Is there any reason why only Arlene Boxhall lacks a stub article and therefore alone is a redlink? Is a stub possible?
The stubs for all the players already existed and were so far as I can tell created en masseusing an internet source that only seems to list those who actually played as opposed to the whole squad. Boxhall never came off the bench so doesn't seem to have been counted. Anyway I've fixed this now; she now has an article too. —Cliftonian(talk)17:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Watch for unnecessary emphasis via adverbs, e.g. "totally by surprise", "entirely unrelated to sport"
I've taken out "entirely" (an improvement), but I kept "totally" as I think taking it out makes the prose worse. I hope this is OK with you. —Cliftonian(talk)17:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"With 50 minutes on the clock..." Non-hockey players such as myself won't understand the significance of "50 minutes on the clock", unless we are told somewhere the duration of a match, e.g. "With 50 minutes of the match's 70 minutes gone..." (if indeed 70 minutes is the duration)
"the joint-fifth most in the event" – I am not entirely convinced of the notability of this nugget of information!
I thought it was worth mentioning that Chase was still one of the top scorers in the event despite being injured, but perhaps you're right that just mentioning that she played and scored some goals is enough. —Cliftonian(talk)17:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for the review, the kind words and the support, Brian. I hope my replies above are to your satisfaction. I'm glad you seem to have enjoyed reading this. Cheers again —Cliftonian(talk)17:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Images are okay: Two CC images donated by the RIA Novosti (I need to buy a beer for whoever negotiated that!) and one free image (crop by a Wikipedian of a PD US Mil work; source is still online and accessible; would be nice to have better quality but I can't see it happening). Captions needed periods (all are full sentences) but I've done that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - You've done a great job with this article! I have a few concerns listed below, but they shouldn't take long to address.
The meaning of "built around the former Rhodesia team" should be clarified.
I have no idea what this phrase means. Is "built around" a metaphor? If so, for what? And what former Rhodesia team? The article says that Rhodesia had been excluded from the Olympics for years, so my understanding is that there hadn't been any Rhodesia teams for ages. Neelix (talk) 20:23, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There was always a Rhodesia team that played against the South African provinces within South Africa's domestic system. (Before 1980 this system was common to many of the sports popular in southern Africa, prominently cricket and rugby; a parallel can be seen in English first-class cricket where to this day the English and Welsh counties play against teams representing the whole of Scotland and Ireland). The 1980 Games were the first to feature hockey so Rhodesia's exclusion from 1968, '72 and '76 isn't relevant here. "Built around" means the team was based around the core of the Rhodesia team but wasn't quite the same. I have expanded to "built around the core of the former Rhodesia team"; is this better? —Cliftonian(talk)16:05, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Semicolons are overused in this article. In particular, they should be removed from the second paragraph in the "Invitation and team selection" section, the second paragraph of the "Tournament" section, and the first paragraph of the "Reactions and legacy" section.
I think "all of these teams had been eliminated" should read "all of the other teams had been eliminated".
No, because we say before "apart from the Soviets". In Commonwealth English at least, you wouldn't say "apart from X, all of the other Y". —Cliftonian(talk)19:18, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the sentence is technically grammatically correct, but is confusing because the phrase "eliminated in qualifying" could refer both to the teams that competed and the teams that did not; the former group was disqualified and then qualified, while the latter group was qualified and then disqualified. Another solution would be to phrase the sentence as follows: "apart from the Soviets, none of these teams had initially qualified for the Olympics, and they were only allowed to compete because of the spaces that had opened up as a result of the boycott." Neelix (talk) 20:36, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've put a wikilink for right-half and a link to wiktionary for through pass. Right half basically means right midfield and a through pass (more commonly through ball) is a pass forward, between opposing defenders, which a team-mate then runs on to. —Cliftonian(talk)19:18, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The meanings of the abbreviations in the "Final standings" table should be elucidated.
I recommend removing the quotation "Nobody who shared the joy of the players and officials could deny them their moment of glory" considering the lengthier quotation from the same commentator that follows immediately afterwards.
My concern is that we're giving Harris's comments far more weight than those of other commentators such as Sullivan. That is true already by concluding the entire article with Harris's thoughts, but juxtaposing a single word of a quotation from Sullivan with two entire sentences of a quotation from Harris seems to me to be excessive, especially considering that the article indicates that the quotation by Sullivan is representative of the comments by other commentators as well. Neelix (talk) 20:44, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for considering my thoughts on the article. I have struck through the concerns that you have addressed. Neelix (talk) 20:47, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Sarastro. I can't seem to find a way to format this reference without the full stop while keeping the link from the footnote working (the full stop is part of the citation template). Do you think we could possibly let this slide? I'm sorry about this. Thanks again for the source review. —Cliftonian(talk)14:26, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I had a stab at fixing it using a slightly different format. Is that OK? If not, maybe just capitalise "in" to avoid any problems. Either way, sources good now. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:19, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Picture review: All pictures are well-described, free of copyright and appropriate. I'd personally recommend that File:Sally Hayfron.jpg is reverted to the previous version which is probably less blocky, and ideally replaced with another image in the future, but obviously this does not in any way condition me against support. Per WP:ImageSize, all images should be left as default 220px and not forced, but this seems universally ignored anyway and I wouldn't make too much of this. Just one thing - I believe Wikiprotocol dictates that punctuation (or at any rate full-stops) should be removed from captions...
In any case, an excellent article, and from the perspective of the pictures, I have no trouble supporting promotion. Brigade Piron (talk) 09:01, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about… the first US gold commemorative coins, allowing us to meet one of the more interesting characters in the history of numismatics, coin collector, dealer, and ruthless promoter Farran Zerbe. Today, he's mostly remembered for good, with a major numismatics award named for him, but he was a very controversial figure in his time.Wehwalt (talk) 03:28, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Source review - spotchecks not done
How are you ordering Other sources with no named author?
FN19: why not cite author?
FN24: title doesn't match that given in source list - which is correct?
States abbreviation done. Rest will follow. I assume you mean the Bowers web site. I've adjusted the "other sources" so their publisher is considered the author for abc purposes.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On Fn19, I'm trying to cite Numismatist articles consistently and not all of them have authors. Fn24, and all others are done. Thank you for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:41, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: A few issues, mainly minor:
Lead
"one variety depicted former president Thomas Jefferson and the other recently assassinated president William McKinley." Lack of punctuation and a missing "the" creates ambiguity. I suggest: "one variety depicted former president Thomas Jefferson, the other the recently assassinated president William McKinley."
Third para: the casual reader might be confused by "Congress passed authorizing legislation for an exposition" and "McKinley was assassinated at the Pan-American Exposition", thinking these expositions to be one and the same. Is it necessary to mention the location of McKinley's assassination?
No, though the fact that he was assassinated is certainly worth mentioning (and advertising :) ) so I've left that. It explains why he's on the coin.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:04, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Preparation
"traveling exhibit" – exhibition? "Exhibit" suggests a single object rather than a collection
"...enquiring what fair officials would like to see on the reverse of the coins". I'm puzzled by this: what design, surely? Or possibly, "enquiring what fair officials would like to see illustrated on the reverse of the coins". But the present wording doesn't make sense to me.
"the excess of 258 over the authorized mintage set aside for testing by the annual Assay Commission." I would clarify this: "the excess of 258 over the authorized mintage of 250,000 being set aside for testing by the annual Assay Commission."
Watch again for any confusion that could arise from varied nomenclature: "fair", "exposition", "World's Fair" etc, all meaning the same thing. Also there could be issues over capitalisation, e.g. as between "the fair" and "the Exposition"
I've reserved "fair" for use as a noun. I do want to use it because it is the common term, used in the song, the film ...--Wehwalt (talk) 08:54, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"...and for co-ordinating sales with the vendors of near-worthless imitation fractional gold pieces, which were half price with the purchase of a dollar coin." I'm not clear with what was going on here: purchasers of the Exposition dollar could buy near-worthless imitations at half the normal price of these imitations? The deal, whatever it was, needs to be explained more clearly.
There was a vendor selling replicas of old privately-issued small gold pieces, which actually contained very little gold. I've tweaked a bit.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:04, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"grading service population figures" – what does this phrase mean?
All images are fine, copyright wise. I'm going to clean up two to make them less distracting, and I have concerns about the huge amount of whitespace at the end of #Design. Also, why does the Jefferson medal not have a caption yet? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:16, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They were the first gold United States commemorative coins. - a footnote regarding the first non-gold commemorative coins?
I think it's addressed in the article by mentioning Zerbe's involvement in an earlier issue.
That means that there were already extant commemoratives, but does not indicate what the first was. Basically, a bit of trivia, to show why the qualifier "gold" is necessary. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
worth in the high hundreds to low thousands of dollars, - worth in the high? Might need rephrasing
I don't see the issue, it should be understandable to the reader. Fairly common phrase, in my experience. Do you have an alternative?
I don't see "worth in the high" used in RSes through this search (rather, the first link is this article!), except following "net worth" (a noun, which can be in something). The less specific "hundreds" or several hundred may be acceptable, maybe. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
he secured the return of the Louisiana territory from Spain via the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso the following year, and through other agreements. - this leads me to question when the territory was actually in the hands of the French again
God knows. I think that level of detail is beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, basically teach a very brief history lesson to those who have forgotten or did not get it in school.
The paragraph starting "Anthony Swiatek ..." is rather short, and I'm tempted to split the sentences off and merge them with the surrounding paragraphs
Is "determined upon" the best wording? Agreed upon?
White space in #Design is still prominent. Worse comes to worse, the Panama coin can be dropped, or we can put the medals side by side
"a billion-dollar gold piece" - Wow. Reminds me of Canada's $1 million Canadian Gold Maple Leaf... what would the size of the thing have been? (not really something to act on)
Source doesn't say.
Paragraph beginning "Zerbe stated in 1905 ..." feels tacked on. I think that section could use a bit of restructuring, to be more chronological. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:08, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's tracking what Zerbe had to say about the issue, plus the fact, which is stated in the source, that he did not identify himself as involved in the sale.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support – immaculate, as we have come to expect from this source on this subject. Just three small comments:
Background
"Napoleon came to power in 1799" – I don't suppose any reader will imagine he came to power in the US, but it still might be as well to say "came to power in France".
Design
"Nomismatic historian" – "numismatic" I assume, but I didn't like to change it – one never knows.
Distribution, aftermath, and collecting
"imitation fractional gold pieces" – I couldn't quite grasp the meaning of this; that is, I know what all the words mean, but as a phrase they left me puzzled. Is it that the pieces had a minute percentage of gold in them?
Wehwalt continues to make numismatic articles interesting even to those like me who are not predisposed towards the subject. As well as covering the essentials fully, clearly and authoritatively, he throws in fascinating stuff about the 9-mile walk in the Agricultural Building (the mind boggles), and the origins of the song "Meet Me in St. Louis". The illustrations are as fine as in other coin articles from this contributor, which is saying a lot. Top flight stuff. – Tim riley (talk) 22:03, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support
I don't see any issues, although I'd disagree with Tim's comment above about the need to specify where Napoleon came to power. Given that the whole paragraph is about French acquisition of the territory, it's pretty clear that Nappy is French.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:58, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you all for your comments and support. I've made the changes Tim suggested, but I'm going with Sturm on the Napoleon matter. I think people know who it is and I agree it is clear from context.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me (though don't blame me when you find François Hollande sitting in the governor's chair in Louisiana – yet another French foreign adventure to distract the public from disaster at home). Tim riley (talk) 19:43, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Basil D'Oliveira was a fairly famous cricketer, but this isn't just another cricket article. He was far more widely known for the events described in this article, where his 1968 inclusion in an England team to tour his native South Africa effectively ended South Africa's participation in international cricket until 1991. These events are still fairly well-known, even outside cricket circles, in the UK today. This article is currently a GA and we have worked on extensively on it for a while. It had an excellent PR, and any further comments would be welcome. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Cliftonian. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note on images: PD images from this period in the UK are hard to come by. We have included a Fair Use image of D'Oliveira from 1968, which we think is justified. There is a recent FA precedent at the Profumo affair, when it was argued here that an image of the main "character" was justified. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:33, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support – As one of the peer reviewers I had my few quibbles thoroughly dealt with there (though I still think "ramifications" in the lead would be better as a plainer "consequences", but I do not press the point). The nominators have marshalled the facts with surgical precision, and have been exemplary in their neutral reporting of this toe-curling episode in English sporting and political history. The prose is compellingly readable, the sourcing broad and the referencing comprehensive. I am no expert on WP's rules for images, but I support the use of the non-free picture of D'Oliveira, as the article would look frankly silly without a photograph of him. I cannot imagine a better article about this gruesome saga. – Tim riley (talk) 22:15, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. As the GA reviewer, I felt that it was FAC ready even at that point, and that's something I virtually never say. Long yes, but a compelling read that doesn't feel bogged down. Wizardman23:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Image review (sorry I didn't do this during PR):
If I don't mention an image, it's fine.
File:Basil D'Oliveira vs Australia, 1968.jpg - If this is a Getty image, per WP:NFCC #2 (as expanded on by WP:NFC#UUI) this should not be used. WP:NFC#UUI point seven includes "A photo from a press or photo agency (e.g., AP, Corbis or Getty Images), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article." as an example of an unacceptable use of non-free content. Do we have any other images of D'Oliveira that we can use, or are there any that are not press agency/photo agency image?
Rather annoyingly all the pictures of him I seem to be able to find online are press images. If we cannot use one of these I imagine we would have to rely on somebody donating one. —Cliftonian(talk)09:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Am I correct in thinking pictures more than 50 years old are okay as they are PD in SA, albeit not in the US? My understanding is that they need to be PD in the US for Commons—does this also apply if the image is only uploaded to the English Wikipedia? If so we should be able to find and use something from early in his career. —Cliftonian(talk)10:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Images on Commons have to be free in the source country and in the US, whereas images on English Wikipedia have to be free in the US at the very least. Owing to the URAA (the bane of my existence), which extended copyright on foreign works in 1996, many images that are PD in their country of origin are not able to be used on Wikipedia or Commons. There is discussion on Commons about rejecting the URAA considerations (very lengthy), but nothing of the sort on the English Wikipedia yet (i.e. URAA is still respected here, and must still be followed). Short answer: not okay. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm not convinced tat the photograph really is a Getty Image, I can't find anything that says he isn't. I'll do a bit of digging to see what else I can find, but I'm not hopeful and I suspect we might have to lose the lead image. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Image update': The main biography contains lots of photographs... all of which are credited to press agencies. Sigh. No cards that have his image that I've been able to find. The only thing I've come up with is a photo from an old cricket magazine that has no photo credit whatsoever. It is just an image of D'Oliveira himself. Would that be OK? Sarastro1 (talk) 21:21, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The South African Copyright Act says (on p. 21, section 15, article 3): "The copyright in an artistic work shall not be infringed by its reproduction or inclusion in a cinematograph film or a television broadcast or transmission in a diffusion service, if such work is permanently situated in a street, square or a similar public place." Since this is a street sign telling people "these public premises" are for whites only, it seems to me that it would come under this definition. In any case I find it hard to believe that this text would come under copyright. —Cliftonian(talk)09:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The current understanding on Commons is "Since section 15(3) does not mention photographs, there is no freedom of panorama exemption in South Africa that would permit photographs of artistic works to be taken without infringing the copyright in the works." Wonky, I agree (what is a film but a series of photographs?), but that's how it's being treated. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:33, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If that's the case, I doubt this would be under the TOO in SA. The UK has a considerably lower TOO than the US. Now this may be under the TOO in the US, which would allow a local (Wikipedia only) upload, as our local files need only respect US copyright law. Again, though, I'm not sure if this would be enough to pass the TOO in the US. Moonriddengirl or Nikkimaria would probably know that best. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At Commons the template PD-South-Africa-exempt seems to be only for "official text of a legislative, administrative or legal nature or an official translation of such a text" (or images thereof); assuming these quotes are in the actual legislation, that might work. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yep; page 19, section 12, article 8(a): "No copyright shall subsist in official texts of a legislative, administrative or legal nature, or in official translations of such texts, or in speeches of a political nature or in speeches delivered in the course of legal proceedings, or in news of the day that are mere items of press information". —Cliftonian(talk)15:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I was unclear. Do we have a link to the law which regulates the "For use by white persons only" status of certain places (i.e. the actual apartheid-era segregation laws) so that we can see if the text is the same or similar to the text used in the sign we're discussing now? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Alright, the diction is essentially the same ("amenities" rather than "facilities", "public premises" instead of "public place", etc. etc.), so I think it would be safe to argue that there is not enough creativity to pass the TOO under US law. SA is a different story, but I think we can give this the benefit of the doubt. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:56, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Arthur Gilligan.jpg - Copyright-wise this is fine, but since this was over 40 years old when the D'Oliveira affair happened, it would be nice to have a more recent image... do we?
There are no public domain pictures of these two that are more recent, or that would cover the period. We are pretty much stuck with these pictures, unfortunately. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I did my stuff at PR. Subject to resolution of the image issues above (and to a sources review which I will do) I am satisfied that this important article fully deserves promotion to FA, and I look forward to seeing it there. I saw D'Oliveira play several times in the 1970s, when he was a bit past his best but still a classy act. I also remember Allen, at his perch in the MCC Committee Room at Lord's, loudly complaining about the price of a cup of coffee. Brianboulton (talk) 12:15, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for the kind words and the support, Brian, as well as the nice anecdote about Gubby that I think really speaks for a lot of these chaps. —Cliftonian(talk)14:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sources review: All sources look to be of appropriate quality and reliability. I notice that in the ref formatting the page ranges for the Oborne citations frequently overlap, e.g. refs 4 and 5, refs 38 and 39, and many similar. There may or may not be good reasons for this, but I thought I'd mention it. Otherwise, no issues on the sourcing. Brianboulton (talk)
I've merged a few references which will stand it, but I think the remaining ones need to be left. I'll have another look later to see if there are any others. Thanks for the review. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:25, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support – I looked at the article when it was at PR and didn't have any complaints about it then, and I certainly don't now. Another fine piece of cricket work here. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Imogen Holst composed, conducted, danced, played the piano, taught, wrote lots of books, started orchestras and choirs, ran festivals... and so on. She never really cut it as a composer, and her music is not much heard, but her huge contribution to Britain's musical life over many decades is widely acknowledged. I have referred to her as "Imogen" throughout the article, acknowledging her father's prior claim to be "Holst" and following the Cosima Wagner precedent. Thanks to various peer reviewers for some excellent suggestions and improvement; further suggestions very welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 21:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support – I was among those who peer reviewed the article, and my suggestions were thoroughly dealt with there. I am wholly in favour of the nominator's decision to use his subject's given name throughout: I saw an early draft in which the usual WP convention of surnaming her was attempted, and at many points it left one uncertain whether it was the father or the daughter who was being referred to. Balance, sourcing and referencing are all first class and the prose is a pleasure to read. As for completeness, Wikipedia leaves the competition at the starting post, giving this important figure in British music 6,300 words, unlike the the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, which sprints through her life in a skimpy 1,130 words, and the supposedly authoritative Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, which spares her just 430 words. Another peer reviewer commented "Considering how much she did for others, it's great to see an article that does proper justice to Imogen", and I so agree! – Tim riley (talk) 07:26, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support as another of the peer reviewers. I agree with every word Tim writes, and his comparisons show just how well this article contributes to Wikipedia's standing. --Stfg (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Another peer reviewer. Like Tim, I think "Imogen" works better than "Holst", and I have nothing but praise for this article. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I understand the reasoning for using "Imogen", but I'm not sure I like the implications it has for gender-neutrality. Shouldn't the article subject take precedence over a relative when it comes to formal, neutral naming? Why "Imogen" and not "Gustav"? I should stress that I'm not objecting to FA status, just floating the idea. PeterIsotalo17:26, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I sort of have two minds about it - I agree that it seems minimizing to refer to her by her first name when standard practice is to use a person's last name. That said, perhaps the reason I feel less comfortable with the idea is that I'm not particularly familiar with the subject area. Perhaps referring to Imogen is as Holst is as jarring to experts as it would be to me to refer to Paula Hitler as "Hitler" throughout her biography. Based on a quick skim of Leopold Mozart, it seems he is usually referred to by his first name, in deference to his more famous son. Parsecboy (talk) 18:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't known of Paula Hitler, but I agree she is a good example of someone whom it wouldn't really work to call by surname. Leopold Mozart is another excellent case in point, though that article calls both Mozarts by their first names. It would work to refer to Holst senior as "Gustav", but somehow I think it would feel strange and subtly wrong – I suppose because one is so used to thinking of the composer of The Planets as "Holst" tout court. There is also the (admittedly pedantic) point that legally, if not in practice, he was "Gustavus" until he changed his name formally in 1918. I think sticking to surnaming him and first-naming Imogen is clearest and the best option, on balance. Tim riley (talk) 18:47, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the concerns expressed here. However, in the use of surnames I don't think an article's subject always should take precedence over a relative, especially when the relative in question is the more famous and is the one usually identified by that surname. More so, when the latter is a significant presence in the article. At the peer review, where I invited discussion on this point, every reviewer accepted that "Imogen" was the best alternative and, significantly, the least confusing to readers (an exact WP precedent is in Cosima Wagner, where the same issue and the same solution was applied). Brianboulton (talk) 20:18, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support – a delight to read. I used to live in Thaxted and frequently walked past the house where I remembered her father. It was this building that led me to his music, and have since become a fan. I knew very little of Imogen, but thanks to this, I shall now root out some of her compositions. Cassiantotalk21:00, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your support. I'm glad you enjoyed the article, and I hope you get some joy from the music – not to everyone's taste, I suspect, but somehow more appealing when you know something about the person that wrote it. Brianboulton (talk) 00:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from SchroCat
Overall an extremely good article which merits featured status. I've mulled over the comments above about the use of "Imogen", as opposed to Holst, and I think that if I was reading an article which continually referred to "Holst", I think I would start getting slightly confused with the better-known father, rather than daughter. I'm also swayed by the Hitler and Mozart parallels, which show that we do use a similar naming method in other areas where such a problem exists.
I've made a few very small edits here and there (on ellipses, pp.s and dashes); feel free to revert if you disagree or I've introduced errors. A very few very minor points for your consideration: accept or ignore as you see fit:
Birth
"Holst was born on 14 April 1907, at 31 Grena": is the comma needed here?
"This and other performances on the podium led the Daily Telegraph to speculate that Imogen might eventually become the first woman to "establish a secure tenure of the conductor's platform"." I think we can afford at least one comma in here?
There are a couple of places you could put one—it could even take two, if you turn part of the sentence into a sub clause—but I'll leave it to Brian to make a call on it. - SchroCat (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I almost corrected the title on this one, as we'd previously read about the EFDS (whose abbreviation had been explained) and not the EFDSS. It's only a couple of lines in that we're told EFDSS is another abbreviation and not an error
"The two were close until 1929, and exchanged poetry. Tomalin married in 1931.": perhaps these two short sentences could run together, sandwiching a semi-colon as they do? (Yes, I too am aware of the irony of encouraging you to use more s-c.s, but you have been rather sparing with your use this time!)
"of Essex (1968), Exeter (1969), and Leeds (1983)." Just wondering why the serial comma, which you eschew elsewhere?
I tend not to use serial commas when the items are essentially part of a continuum, e.g. I would write "ham, egg and chips" not "ham, egg, and chips". In the case above, the universities are discrete bodies, and it seems that to remove the serial comma might give a sense that Exeter and Leeds were related in some way. This is not a stance that I will defend strongly if you really think the comma ought to go. Brianboulton (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Music
"she uses dissonance to add power to the text": 'power' could be seen as slightly peacocky: would it be worth attributing this?
"The EFDSS was formed in December 1931": our own article has '32 (as does Grove) and that was also the impression I got from the section on Imogen, where we have "joining the staff of the EFDS early in 1932."
The exact note that I've cited reads: "The English Folk Dance Society (EFDS) became the English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS) in December 1931, when it merged with the English Folk Song Society". The EDFS Grove article gives the amalgamation year as 1932. I have dug a little deeper, and discovered that the decision to amalgamate was indeed taken in 1931, but came into legal effect in March 1932. I don't think it's particularly important, but I've made the necessary alteration to the footnote and add a further citation – it's as well to be accurate in small things. Brianboulton (talk)
Which is correct, "Part 1" or "Part I"? Suspect it's the latter. Either way, these should be the same part and the same page range, so might as well be combined. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:28, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support another peer reviewer here, had my say there. I feel this fine work comfortably meets the criteria and am delighted to support. Well done Brian, another triumph! —Cliftonian(talk)20:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about the Peru national football team, a presently mediocre sports team with an illustrious history. Several past (although relatively recent) FAC reviews ended in no consensus to promote not due to oppose votes, but rather due to lack of support votes (despite the plentiful commentary). This sports article is the best national football team model and deserves to be considered part of Wikipedia's featured content. Thanks.--MarshalN20 | Talk01:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Further notes
Image review conducted by Nikkimaria in archive 3. No new images have been added since then.
Major improvement suggestions last addressed in archive 2. No new major changes have been made since then.
Actually, after analyzing the article and its derived works, I have done a series of major improvements to the article this year (2014), including citation improvements, image re-arrangements, and content improvements. If the FA reviewers could please double-check the citations, it would be most appreciated. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk22:57, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: MarshalN20. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I am not particularly knowledgeable about football, especially in South America, but I feel this nomination has waited long enough, so I am providing a few general comments which I hope will kickstart a more detailed review.
Opening words: "The Peru national football team represents Peru in international football competition". Isn't this rather a statement of the obvious?
In my view there is two much use of acronyms in he first paragraph. We have FPF, which you explain properly, then FIFA and CONMEBOL, which require readers to link to other articles. I think you might get away with FIFA, but I suggest "South American Football Confederation (CONMEBOL)"
"Its traditional rival is Chile, but there is also a prominent rivalry with Ecuador". Awkward repetition, and "prominent" is probably not the best choice of adjective here. I would simplify to something like: "There are longstanding rivalries with Cile and with Ecuador"
"...because government sport authorities intervened in FPF affairs under allegations of corruption." Needs to be expressed more clearly, e.g. "while allegations of PFP corruption were investigated by the Peruvian governemnt's sporting authorities.
In the History section, what is meant by "food ways"? In general there is too much reliance in this section on direct quotations for fairly unremarkable expressions, for which a brief paraphrase would be more appropriate. For example, "British advisors, engineers, and other technicians (including sailors)" could easily be "British civilian workers and visiting sailors".
"ending last in both the 1990 and 1994 World Cup qualifiers" – "finishing last"?
A "hiatus" does not "experience" a recovery, full or slight. A hiatus (a break in continuity) may be followed by a recovery.
"...despite achieving third place at the 2011 Copa América and attaining its highest FIFA position in July 2013, Peru did not qualify for the Brazil 2014 World Cup". The word "despite" suggests that Perus 3rd place in the Copa America, and its FIFA ranking, were contributory factors in its World Cup qualification. They were not - the World Cup qualifying competition is a separate affair. The sentence could read: "Peru achieved third place at the 2011 Copa América, and reached its highest-ever FIFA position (19th) in July 2013. However, it failed to qualify for the Brazil 2014 World Cup."
I only have time for a few brief further observations:
Players": what you describe as the "current squad" was evidently put together for a single friendly match. Why was this match particularly notable, to separate these players out from the others? A squad chosen for one match does not normally become the "national squad".
You don't need dates of birth and ages - the ages will soon be out of date anyway.
"Recent callups" table: "in the last 12 months" needs some actual date referencing, since "the last twelve months" is a constantly shifting time span
What is the logic for the ordering of the players' names in this section?
That's all I have time for. My last observation is that the prose would benefit from a full copyedit by an editor who has considerable experience of writing in good quality English. I don't think previous copyeditors have done a particularly good job – the prose is decidedly flaky for a fifth-time nomination. Brianboulton (talk) 20:37, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Brian, thank you very much for the review.
I agree that there are several redundant phrases and concepts in the article, but these are requirements from the guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/National teams. That link should answer your last few questions about the "current squad" and "the last 12 months". Also, the Scotland national football team article (the current only FA national football team) should further help out.
Some additional responses:
The logic of the players' ordering (in the "Recent callups") is based on the last match they played with the national team.
The article has been copy-edited various times (formally and informally), but its prose can certainly be improved by reviewers. If you have some additional time available, further prose improvement suggestions are by all means welcome.
You'll have to search far and wide for someone who knows littler about footbal than myself, so feel free to laff at any naïvetés I may list here. I have been to Peru, though---but not Lima (my wife's Japanese, and the atmosphere was a little unfriendly for Japanese people when we were there in 2001). Feel free to disagree with any comment of mine, some of which are merely my preferences and wouldn't impact FAC eligibility.
"football became "a popular sport promoted by bosses for the cohesion of their workers and to a daily practice on empty lots in popular urban barrios" ": quotations should have inline attribution---but is there some reason this can't be reworded? Must it be a quote?
I wonder about some of the other quotes as well...not that I can pinpoint anything wrong with it, but there are a lot of them, and few or any of them seem like really "quotable" quotes.
" to the repression taken against "social, sporting and political organization among the urban and rural poor" during the 1940s and 1950s": is there something good to link to here?
"from the left shoulder to the right hip, in the front, and vice-versa, in the back": I might drop the first and third commas
"was one of Peru's four "FIFA Star II" (the highest certification granted to artificial pitches) stadiums": the parenthesis seems awkward to me reading aloud. How about something like "was one of Peru's four stadiums to be awarded "FIFA Star II", the highest certification granted to artificial pitches"?
"now covered by thousands": how about an "as of"?
"desert-like coastal region"; "was markedly English, played by members of the expatriate community and the Anglophile elite on grass pitches in clubs that were physically separated from the daily reality of Lima"; "a form of popular culture with autonomous characteristics of organization and practice"; "fervor, enthusiasm, and passion"; etc: attribution, or paraphrase?
"¡Arriba Perú!": would a translation (even in an endnote) be out of line?
"Supporters of Peru are infamously known for the Estadio Nacional disaster, considered as one of the most terrible in football history,[68] which occurred on May 24, 1964, during a 1964 Summer Olympics qualifying match between the youth (under-20) squads of Peru and Argentina.": I might split this into two sentences
"Peru's only hat-trick scorer": is "hat trick" worth a link?
"a pure goal scorer who would take on entire defenses", etc: attribution, or paraphrase?
" including friendlies": "friendlies" worth a link? (I don't know what it means)
The repression against social organizations took place during the government of Manuel Odria. The Spanish WP has an article on it ([38]).
Most readers don't know the meaning of "hat-trick".
I don't know how to properly translate the sports chant.
All other points should be addressed.
I hope your visit to Peru was enjoyable. The only noteworthy thing about Lima, aside from the museums, is the food. The city is not much different from other major urban centers in the Western Hemisphere, except perhaps the driving experience is the worst of all.
I really enjoyed the few days I spent in Cusco, especially (obviously) Machu Picchu (and the 30¢ slices of lemon meringue pie I found)! A further nitpick: I didn't mean you should add "as of" to "now"—I meant that "now" will very quickly become "not now", so it would be best to have an "as of 2013" or whatever, or to avoid mentioning a time at all (the date of the renovation should be sufficient). Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good, I'm glad you had a good time in Cusco.
I removed the "as of now" part. I agree that it is best to avoid mentioning time.
Curly Turkey: Dear friend, the article underwent a thorough copy-edit carried out by Cliftonian (see below for more information). At this time, would you oppose or support the nomination?--MarshalN20Talk15:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry it took me a while to come back. There are a couple of refs listed that you haven't cited anywhere: Glanville, Brian (2010). The Story of the World Cup; and Lennox, Doug (2009). Now You Know Soccer. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:34, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support—I have reviewed this article at great length over the past fortnight (see below) and have provided a thorough copy-edit. After a lot of progress I feel the article now meets the FA criteria and am happy to support its promotion. Well done MarshalN20; I hope this gets the support it needs this time. —Cliftonian(talk)14:47, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would restructure the first two sentences thus: "The Peru national football team represents Peru in international football. Managed by the Peruvian Football Federation (FPF), it is one of the 10 members of FIFA's South American Football Confederation (CONMEBOL)." (prose issues, and it competes against teams from all around the world when it qualifies for the World Cup finals.)
"The Peruvian team's performance has been inconsistent, although it enjoyed successful periods in the 1930s and 1970s." Use of "although" is inappropriate, as the following statement that certain periods were considered successful itself implies that other periods were less so. I would suggest removing "although", putting a semicolon here and clarifying that it enjoyed its most successful periods in the 1930s and 1970s.
Perhaps mention Lima is the capital of Peru (a lot of people wouldn't know)
Clarify that what they have qualified for four times are technically the World Cup final tournaments, not the World Cup tournaments themselves
Since they've only been to the Olympics once perhaps simpler just to say when it was: "and participated in the Olympic football tournament in 1936."
"The classic uniform colors" Perhaps "Peru's classic uniform colors"
"which is why the Peruvian team is commonly known as" perhaps "which gives rise to the Peruvian team's common Spanish nickname"
"Early in its history" Clarify we mean early in the team's history and not that of Peru the country
Teodoro Fernández, Juan Valdivieso, and Alejandro Villanueva—are these players?
It may be an understatement to state that I loved all the improvement recommendations. I look forward to the rest of the review. Thank you.--MarshalN20Talk18:23, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I copyedited some of the new additions, I hope you don't mind
"Early in its history, Peru's national team participated in the inaugural FIFA World Cup tournament"—Why not just "Peru took part in the inaugural FIFA World Cup in 1930"?
"brought it to world recognition" perhaps "brought it worldwide recognition"
"Peru's 1982 World Cup participation was its last to date, and it has not since won a major tournament or qualified for the World Cup" How about "Peru last reached the World Cup finals in 1982; it has since failed to qualify, and has not won any major tournament."
"In late 2008, the team was temporarily suspended from international participation by FIFA while allegations of FPF corruption were investigated by the Peruvian government's sporting authorities." How about "FIFA temporarily suspended the team from international competition in late 2008 while Peruvian government investigated allegations of corruption within the FPF."
"Peru appointed Uruguayan Sergio Markarián as its head coach in 2010 and, after achieving third place at the 2011 Copa América, was unable to qualify for the 2014 FIFA World Cup." Perhaps mention the team is presently without a coach and that Sergio Markarián, from Uruguay, was the last incumbent? We don't need to mention that Peru didn't get to the 2014 World Cup again as we have already said they didn't get into a World Cup since 1982, so leave that out. I would keep that they came third in the 2011 Copa América; perhaps mention this is the best they've done since 1983 (so perhaps things are on the up! ;))
Infobox looks generally okay to me; I'd just put an inline citation on Palacios' 128 caps and on Pizarro being captain
History
I'd perhaps change the first use of football to "Assocation football"→"Association football was introduced to Peru ..." I don't know, I just think it makes it sound nice, I'll leave this one to your personal discretion
"in the nineteenth century" I think we prefer "in the 19th century" in MOS? I may be wrong
you don't need to wikilink England (everybody knows what England is)
Again, perhaps make clear that Lima is the capital city. Suggested reword: "As early as 1859, members of the British community in the capital Lima founded the Lima Cricket Club, a sports club dedicated to cricket, rugby, and football." (you don't need "the practice of", all it adds is extra words)
"of the War of the Pacific (1879–1883)"→I'd make this "of the War of the Pacific against Chile (1879–1883)."
"After the war, Peru's coastal society embraced modern cultural practices for leisure, the arts, and cuisine. In Lima, football became a popular daily activity in urban barrios. City workers were also encouraged to practice the sport by bosses who wanted to improve their laborer's solidarity and productivity." Perhaps "After the war, coastal society in Peru embraced modern innovations such as football, which became a popular daily activity in Lima barrios. Urban bosses encouraged their workers to take up the sport, hoping that it would breed solidarity and improved productivity."
"with local workers" why not just "with locals"
"Due to these factors, including the sport's rapid development among the urban poor of Lima's La Victoria district (thanks to the foundation of Alianza Lima in 1901), Peru formed the strongest footballing culture in the Andean region." Perhaps "These factors, coupled with the sport's rapid development among the urban poor of Lima's La Victoria district (where the Alianza Lima club was formed in 1901), led to Peru developing the strongest footballing culture in the Andean region.
"Peruvian Football League tournament" you don't need tournament
Perhaps rephrase this sentence as: "The Peruvian Football League was formed in 1912 and held each year until it broke up in 1921 amid disputes between the member clubs."
"Consequently, the Peruvian Football Federation (FPF)[C] was created in the following year and, in 1926, assumed the management of the Peruvian Football League." Try "The Peruvian Football Federation (FPF) was created the following year and, in 1926, it reorganised the annual league competition."
"The FPF joined the South American Football Confederation (CONMEBOL) in 1925, but due to financial problems it only formed a national football team in 1927,[19] which debuted in that year's South American Championship.[12]" Try "The FPF joined the South American Football Confederation (CONMEBOL) in 1925, and formed a national team in 1927—the delay was due to financial issues. The team debuted in the 1927 South American Championship, which the FPF hosted at the Estadio Nacional in Lima."
Perhaps mention here that Peru's first win was a 3–2 victory over Bolivia in their second international game?
"During the 1930s, Peruvian football lived its first golden era." You should really say instead that this has been called a golden era. "The 1930s have been called Peruvian football's first golden era." Or something like that.
Say what Rodillo Negro means in English ("black roller")
wikilink Alejandro Villanueva, Juan Valdivieso, and Teodoro Fernández, and mention that these are players. Perhaps say what positions they respectively played. What exactly made them "a soccer triumvirate unsurpassed in the world at that time"?
"After a fair performance"—"a fair performance" seems terribly vague and, er, they played two games and lost them both. Perhaps just say they took part in the inaugural World Cup in Uruguay in 1930 (I think it's worth mentioning it was in Uruguay, another South American country).
Why were poor organisations in Peru repressed during the 1940s and 1950s?
"generally reached the middle standings" perhaps "generally performed creditably"
"In this period, Peru generally reached the middle standings at South American Championships and barely missed the Sweden 1958 World Cup, after being defeated by Brazil (which went on to win the competition)" Perhaps "Peru generally performed creditably at the South American Championships during this period, and narrowly missed qualification for the 1958 World Cup finals in Sweden, losing over two legs to eventual champions Brazil."
"A series of victories in the late 1960s, culminating in the qualification for the Mexico 1970 World Cup, brought Peru to another golden era." Try "A series of successes during the late 1960s, culminating for the Mexico 1970 World Cup, ushered in a second golden period for Peruvian football."
"Peru reached the quarterfinals, where it was knocked out by eventual winners Brazil, and earned the first FIFA Fair Play Trophy."→"Peru reached the quarter-finals in 1970, losing to the tournament winners Brazil, and earned the first FIFA Fair Play Trophy."
"while in Spain 1982" should be "and in Spain 1982"
"the first stage" should be "the first group stage" (to concisely make clear there were two group stages that year)
"Peru's early elimination" should be "Peru's early elimination in 1982" (more clear)
"Following its failed qualification" should be "Following its failure to qualify for the 1986 World Cup in Mexico"
"as "The Colts" (Spanish: Los Potrillos)" should be "as Los Potrillos ("The Colts")" (I think it is clear from context this is Spanish)
"leaving among the dead several national team players (including rising sensation Luis Escobar and goalkeeper José González Ganoza) and coach Marcos Calderón." put a full stop before this and make this into a new sentence. "All aboard were killed except the pilot. Among the dead were the national team coach Marcos Calderón and several Peruvian international players, including Luis Escobar, widely tipped as a future star forward, and goalkeeper José González Ganoza."
"South Korea/Japan 2002 and Germany 2006 tournaments" make clear these are World Cup tournaments
briefly explain that Peru was invited to the Gold Cup in 2000 as a guest team
Why was a corrupt official blamed for the players' perceived poor performance?
"considered his re-election illegal" perhaps "declared his re-election illegal"
In the final sentence in this section move the "however" from the start of the sentence to the end
Make clear in the image caption that the players are named from left to right (I presume they are). Also maybe move the image down to the 1970s paragraph and put it on the right (if it overlaps slightly into the section on the team's kit this is no great bother as it nicely displays the team's kit too)
How about "Colours" or "kit"? These are terms more commonly used in football than "uniform". I'd go for "colours" myself.
When we say Peru's national colors are red and white, we mean the country in a non-sporting sense, right? If so, I'd make this clearer. Put something like "The Peru football team plays in red and white, the country's national colors."
Why not mention the first kit had black socks?
"on the front", not "in the front"; same "on the back"
They haven't used the exact same design since 1936, have they? Perhaps make clear that the basic sash design dates back to 1936, but that it has been slightly altered periodically during that time.
I think this section would benefit from a slight reorganisation; I think it might work better if you discuss each design directly when it is introduced, as opposed to the present format where you introduce the four designs, then go back and discuss each of them.
"claiming that" seems odd wording; all Turpin said was that he thought it was the nicest kit, not that it unambiguously was. I'd replace this with "saying that".
"eight separate companies"→"separate" is not needed, "eight companies" means the same thing
Is arkivperu.com a reliable source? Looks like a blog to me. Likewise Jaime Pulgar-Vidal Otálora (blogspot).
Okay, these both seem reasonable to me, but keep in mind these sources might get questioned by others—if you find something more concrete I would recommend adding them. —Cliftonian(talk)17:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Goldblatt does not explain why sports organizations were repressed.
I haven't found another source that mentions sports organizations in Peru during this period. Based on personal knowledge, I would guess the repression is related to the Manuel A. Odría administration. However, Odría was also a populist, and prior Peruvian administrators (such as that of Manuel Prado) were not supportive of organizations that united the poor or industrial workers (which is partially why APRA became an important political force). The convoluted nature of Peruvian politics may also explain why Goldblatt decided to avoid elaborating on the subject.--MarshalN20Talk17:14, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I think I understand. I'm sorry I am so ignorant of matters Peruvian! Perhaps just add a few words to make clear it was the government that was repressing the organisations? ("He attributed this sudden decline to Peruvian authorities' repression of "social, sporting and political organizations among the urban and rural poor" during the 1940s and 1950s." or something like that should do). —Cliftonian(talk)17:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Rodillo Negro did not participate in the 1930 World Cup. I attempted to make the sentence a "before and after" contrast, but (in retrospect) it does not seem to have been expressed properly.
Why don't you just move the fragment about playing in the 1930 World Cup to the beginning of the paragraph, before you mention the Rodillo Negro? —Cliftonian(talk)16:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you go back through the previous comments again as some of them don't seem to have been addressed. For example, what exactly made Villanueva, Valdivieso, and Fernández "a soccer triumvirate unsurpassed in the world at that time"? Does the source say? Only a word or two of explanation is required to make this part clear for the reader. I'll continue the review later. —Cliftonian(talk)16:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for being so patient and polite with me, as I say above I am rather ignorant of both Peru the country and its football team (which is a large factor in what makes reviewing this interesting)—all I knew before was the wonderful red sash kit! I will go back and copy-edit a little in the history section before continuing the review, I hope you don't mind. Well done so far, this is shaping up nicely. —Cliftonian(talk)17:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your changes to the colors section look great, well done! I have just copy-edited the prose a little bit. Right, on with the review.
Stadium
"The Estadio Nacional is a 45,000-spectator stadium located in Lima that acts as the traditional home of the Peruvian team and the national stadium of Peru." This sentence seems kind of backwards to me. I would put :The traditional home of the Peruvian team is the country's national stadium, the Estadio Nacional in Lima, which houses 45,000 spectators." Or something like that.
Was the first national stadium also called the Estadio Nacional? Why not say this is the third Estadio Nacional, the result of a renovation process under Alan Garcia that was completed in 2011, and that the original was a wooden structure ... etc
"Peru's centenary of independence" should be "the centenary of Peru's independence"
You don't need to wikilink Spain, everybody knows what Spain is
"regime" is a somewhat loaded word in English, try "government" or even just putting "Under General Manuel Odría, the stadium ..."; this still makes sense and is more concise
"reconstructed, expanded, and officially re-inaugurated" expanded seems superfluous here; how could it be expanded if it was reconstructed at the same time? try "rebuilt with a larger capacity, and officially re-inaugurated"
I'd move the sentence about this being the present stadium up (see comment above)
"A unique feature" all features are unique; I'd replace this word
"named in honor of the main advocate of the stadium's first renovation" who was he? A politician? a civil servant? a sports coach?
"overtime" should be "over time" ("overtime" as one word is a noun equivalent to "injury time" in US English)
"The arena was also the only national stadium in CONMEBOL to have artificial turf, installed to improve its aesthetic appeal for the 2005 FIFA U-17 World Championship, and was one of Peru's four "FIFA Star II" stadia, the highest certification granted to artificial pitches." You should rearrange this to make clear that stadium had artificial turf from 2005, but doesn't now (I know you say this in the next paragraph but this is quite jarring)
"located in" You don't need "located"; just saying "in" means the same thing
Supporters
"Amid the 2014 World Cup qualifiers" try "During the 2014 World Cup qualifiers" ("amid" would mean during that period, but not actually during those games)
"During the 19th century, football in Peru was not only exclusive to Lima's Anglophile elite and former expatriates, but it was also secluded from the rest of the city." Try "During the 19th century, football in Peru was largely exclusive to Lima's Anglophile elite and expatriates, and secluded from the rest of the city."
"as the practice of the sport" why not just "as the sport"
"of a wider popular culture" you don't need "a"
"In the 21st century, football is the most popular sport in Peru" Perhaps "Football is today the most popular sport in Peru." I would recommend putting this at the start of this section
"Peruvian fans commonly encourage the national squad with the popular sports chant ¡Arriba Perú!" How about "Peru fans often encourage the national team with cries of ¡Arriba Perú! ("Come on Peru!")."
"it became "a symbol of national culture" for Peru" try "it became a symbol of [Peruvian] national culture."
"Peru Campeón, a polca criolla" translate these Spanish terms
"qualification to the Mexico 1970 World Cup" should be "qualification for"
"considered as one of the most terrible in football history" perhaps "which is often cited as one of the worst tragedies in football history"
"the youth (under-20) squads of Peru and Argentina" maybe "Peru's under-20 team and its counterpart from Argentina"
"goal from Peru, which would have tied the score, alleging "rough play" from the Peruvians" maybe "Peruvian goal, a would-be equalizer, alleging rough Peruvian play."
"jumped into the field" maybe "invaded the pitch"
"on the pitch" is not necessary; "thrown from the stands" is enough
"Police responded by throwing tear gas into the crowd, causing a stampede that was worsened by the stadium's locked gates. The death toll amounted to 315 spectators and more than 500 were injured in the chaos." Try "Police threw tear gas into the crowd, which caused a stampede; trying to escape, fans were crushed against the stadium's locked gates. A total of 315 people were killed in the chaos, with more than 500 others injured."
Rivalries
"Peru maintains prominent football rivalries with Chile and Ecuador. They have a favorable record against Ecuador and a negative record against Chile.[72][73] The first time Peru faced both its rivals in an official tournament was during the 1939 South American Championship held in Lima; Peru won both matches.[74] In the FIFA World Cup, Peru's first confrontation against both rivals happened during the Argentina 1978 World Cup qualifiers, in which Peru directly eliminated Ecuador and Chile after defeating them in Lima and securing away draws.[72][73]" Perhaps:
"The Peru football team maintains prominent rivalries with its counterparts from neighbouring Chile and Ecuador.[72][73] The Peruvians have a favorable record against Ecuador and a negative record against Chile. Both of these rivalries date back to the 1939 South American Championship in Lima, when Peru first faced Ecuador and Chile in an official tournament; Peru won both games.[74] Peru's first FIFA World Cup matches against its two rivals were played during qualifying for the Argentina 1978 World Cup; Peru defeated both Ecuador and Chile over two legs, directly eliminating them both.[72][73]"
"considers it to be" perhaps "ranks it"
"Chile has" perhaps "the Chilean team has"
"Both nations further dispute the origin of the football move known as the bicycle kick, with Peruvians naming it chalaca and Chileans calling it chilena." Perhaps "both nations furthermore claim to have invented the bicycle kick; Peruvians call it the chalaca, and it is the chilena in Chile."
"prevent both sides from facing each other" perhaps "prevent a match between the two sides"
Everything is fantastic. To my mind comes that quote attributed to Michelangelo: "Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it." I brought the stone, and you're the artist making a masterpiece out of it. [:)]--MarshalN20Talk14:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, thank you for the extremely flattering words! I'm glad you feel that way. I noticed that one of the images lower down infringed on copyright (falsely labelled as self-published, but actually from Popperfoto), so I took it out. I don't think it's a great loss anyway. Okay, on to "Competitive records".
FIFA World Cup
"Peru has participated in 14 World Cup qualifiers and 4 World Cup finals." Try "The Peruvian team competed at the first World Cup in 1930 as invitees, and has entered each tournament at the qualifying stage since 1958. Having qualified three times (in 1970, 1978 and 1982), it has taken part in the World Cup finals four times."
"In the qualifiers, the squad has a record of 35 wins, 30 draws, and 59 losses, with 130 goals in favor and 174 against." Perhaps "Peru's all-time record in World Cup qualifying matches as of 2014 stands at 35 wins, 30 draws and 59 losses; the team has scored 130 goals and conceded 174."
"In the finals, the team holds a record of 4 wins, 3 draws, and 8 losses, with 19 goals in favor and 31 against." Maybe "In the finals, the team has won four matches, drawn three and lost eight, with 19 goals in favor and 31 against."
expand to "During the 1930 competition, a Peruvian became the first player sent off in a World Cup—his identity is disputed between sources."
"first tournament goal" why not "first World Cup goal"
"Teófilo Cubillas is the team's top World Cup scorer with 10 goals in 13 games" this is including qualifiers, right?
On reflection, I don't think the large tables and templates in the "competitive records" section really belong in this article about the Peru football team in general. They are rather intrusive and detract somewhat from the prose, in my opinion. I think these would be better off in the individual articles linked to or in an article on the Peru football team's statistics. —Cliftonian(talk)20:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please pardon the delay in updating the article. I'm currently stuck with a few dull tasks at work. [:/]
The achievement tables are a standard across all national football team articles. I personally agree with you that they are bulky and detract from the prose. However, this would be a long-term matter to discuss with the editors at WP:FOOTY and change the format.
Hmmm. Is there a way to make it so these tables are hidden by default? This might be a good way around this—the information would be retained for those who want it (who can easily open the table), but would not be as intrusive and distracting. I think we can do this by going to the individual template pages and changing the class to "wikitable collapsible collapsed". I would recommend taking the templates with the squads for each tournament out. —Cliftonian(talk)08:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The name "Polca criolla" is the same in Spanish and English. Another common name in English is "Peruvian polka", which is the correct translation of the other common Spanish name "polca peruana". Based on GoogleBooks results, I get the impression that "polca criolla" is more common in the academic realm (perhaps because it has a more exotic tone to it). Regardless, I think either is fine. Which do you prefer?
I think we could best put it as "Peru Campeón, a polca criolla (Peruvian polka)". I hope this is okay with you? Don't worry at all about delays, I understand completely. I hope all this is helpful and that you are well —Cliftonian(talk)08:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good. I hope to soon create the "polca criolla" article, but I'm debating on whether to focus on that first or expand the Musica criolla article.
I am now on the records section. The boxes are now collapsed. The team templates need to be in the article. I can move them to the bottom of the page. Would you prefer them to be at the bottom of the article?
I'm sorry it took me a couple days to get back to this. I think perhaps having them at the bottom would be best as they are a little in the way as it is, even though they are collapsed. I will copy-edit the rest of the article over the next few days and then have a final look over. I hope this is okay and that you are well. See also my note below. Thanks, —Cliftonian(talk)17:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have finished copyediting the article now, and am now concluding this part of the review. I hope all the changes I have made are to your satisfaction. I have just one more query regarding the prose and captions: "The renovated Estadio Nacional offers high-quality lighting for HD newscasts"—what does this mean? I don't understand. Apart from this I am happy enough to support so far as prose is concerned. You also need to go through and work on the reference formatting (for example, you have "CONMEBOL.com" and "FIFA.com" listed as publishers, when it should just be "CONMEBOL" and "FIFA"—the publisher is the organisation, not the name of the website). Also keep in mind what I said about sourcing; you have quite a few blogs in here and these are sure to throw up question marks. I am sorry but I still don't feel comfortable supporting this for FA status while these issues remain surrounding the references. I hope you're well and having a nice weekend. Cheers, —Cliftonian(talk)11:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All the changes are fantastic. It may just be nostalgia, but I would have liked to keep the kit evolution pictures in the "Colours" section.
The "high-quality lighting..." part refers to the improved lights of the stadium, which (according to the source) make High-Definition (television) newscasts possible.
All the ".com" issues should now be resolved. Certain websites, such as "Peru.com", have the ".com" as part of their official name.
All of the blogs are reliable per WP:SPS: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."
The only website I can agree that is borderline acceptable is "ArkivPeru", but I think it can be removed if you think the article would be better without using it.
I removed ArkivPeru from a couple of citations, replacing one with a source from El Comercio. I left it for the citation of Peru's kit history (no other source has such a detailed account of it).--MarshalN20Talk16:02, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is okay, well done. The issue I mentioned above regarding the publisher formatting still remains, though—in a lot of instances you give the web address or the work as the publisher rather than the publisher itself.
El Comercio, for example, is a newspaper, right? It should go under "work", not publisher. The publisher is "Empresa Editora El Comercio". (this is also the publisher for Peru.com, Peru21.pe, Depor.pe and Laprensa.pe; these are all works).
Give RSSSF in full: it is the Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation.
Everything is good. Clarin is the work, and "Grupo Clarin" is the publisher. Thank you for teaching me to distinguish between both.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that adding the common acronym to the first full citation, such as "Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation (RSSSF)", would then permit me to solely use the acronym in subsequent citations? I just did this, but can also quickly change everything to the full name.
@John:. This article hasn't been "changed from UK to US English". I wrote most of the pre-FA review draft. English is not my first language, and I learned to write/speak it from a variety of individuals, including French Vietnamese, Midwestern Americans, and British Peruvians. Basing a "procedural oppose" on the language of a subpar version of the article, from nearly a decade ago ([40]), is astonishing.
Moreover, my first edit on the article was in 2007 ([41]), by which time there were no mention of "colours" or "neighbours" (which are the only UK English words I could catch from the 2004 version). I hope this answers your query. Best regards.--MarshalN20Talk23:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. It should be kept in the original dialect per WP:RETAIN. If you didn't change it (and I accept you didn't), it should be easy enough to change it back. --John (talk) 23:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would not have minded at all to write the article in UK English, as I did (with the help of UK English writing editors) in Falkland Islands, but at this point the request is excessive.
In fact, I consider the following part of WP:RETAIN to apply to this case: "When no English variety has been established and discussion cannot resolve the issue, the variety used in the first non-stub revision is considered the default. If no English variety was used consistently, the tie is broken by the first post-stub contributor to introduce text written in a particular English variety. The variety established for use in a given article can be documented by placing the appropriate Varieties of English template on its talk page." Two words ("colours" and "neighbours") do not establish a consistent variety.
Nonetheless, if you would like to change the language from US to UK English, please feel free to go ahead and do it (and tag it accordingly on the talk page). However, please don't oppose this article's nomination based on a 2004 edition, which was little more than a stub with only two identifiable UK English words.
I'm somewhat bemused by the idea that this should not go to FA status on the basis of an ENGVAR issue from a decade ago. The only important thing for me is that one variety, either UK or US English, is used consistently throughout. I would personally prefer UK-style English just because that's what I'm more used to. One though that has just occurred to me is that using British English would be a quite nice way to subtly give a nod to the British founders of Peruvian football. What do you think? Whatever we decide, I am happy to go through and make sure the whole article conforms to one variety. —Cliftonian(talk)17:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any preference over either variety. However, I am unable to conduct such a massive change at this time. If perhaps John or you could please do then change, then that would be great. Best regards.--MarshalN20Talk19:42, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I will convert the article to BrE in a couple days (I'll be unable to until then because of real life commitments). I hope this settles this issue. —Cliftonian(talk)19:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate you have tried to fix this. I cannot support though because the prose is still not at the requisite level. "Furthermore" and "however" are danger flags of bad writing to me, and I see we still have "centered" among the UK spellings. I think a good copy-edit could take this to the standard but it is not there yet. --John (talk) 19:25, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry about this. I will endeavour to rectify this when I copyedit this article in a few days. I hope you're well and having a pleasant week. Thanks, —Cliftonian(talk)20:10, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@John: Friend, the article underwent a thorough copy-edit carried out by Cliftonian (see above for more information). Everything you mentioned was addressed (UK English and good copy-edit). Only two "however" are in the article, and these are appropriately used in the history section. Given these major changes, would you keep the oppose or change to support the nomination? Best regards.--MarshalN20Talk15:23, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: I see an img review was done in the last FAC, but doesn't hurt to double-check. 10 images in all, first one is a logo that passes copyleft status due to its simplicity. Rest of the images check out ok except for the ones noted. First, File:Perurumania1930.JPG is tagged as PD for Chile, but it shows a Peru-Romania match. I'm sure it is PD, but is that the right tag? If Los Sports, the source, is Chilean, perhaps make that clear. If it is based in Peru, then change to the Peru PD tag you use elsewhere. Also, I'd like to see File:Inside Estadio Nacional (Lima, Peru).jpg's description fleshed out due to how vague it is, though it is not a requirement. Wizardman04:24, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review, Wizardman. Yes, it seems Los Sports was a Chilean magazine published during the 1930s (there's a substantial article on it in the Spanish Wikipedia). The Peru-Romania match was surprisingly violent, so that may be the reason it got coverage in Chile. Although I imagine the World Cup was also the only notable sporting event that took place in South America at that time.
I went ahead and linked Los Sports on the image, since I didn't realize we had an article on it (one sentence, but it exists). Everything else looks good now img-wise. Wizardman00:06, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Nergaal
There are a bunch of issues I noticed and I will try to list them as I go through:
Intro
"he 1930s and 1970s" there should be another the after and
" and is without a manager..." there is something weird about this whole sentence
second para and on: I don't really like how the intro is organized; please try to talk about each set a competitions in an order: start with WC record - by taking 2 or 3 sentences; then talk about the copa america; then other stuff such as the olympics
have 3rd para talk about say famous people and managers
then perhaps talk about rivalries, jersey, etc
last intro para talk about recent developments and current trends in performances
History
I don't really like how this section is and I think you should have 3 subsections: 1) early beginnings and first world cups (1930s); after Rodillo Negro up to 1982; 3) modern/recent era
when was the first friendly and first official international game played?
"Starting with Ciclista Lima in 1926, Peruvian clubs toured Latin America." needs a citation
"Peru took part in the inaugural FIFA World Cup in Uruguay in 1930" move to next para
" the national team's underperformance" during what period?
" reached its highest-ever position in the FIFA world rankings" I think you need to specify here since when are the rankings recorded/calculated
"It failed to qualify for the Brazil 2014 World Cup finals, nonetheless" please state the place. You should clearly state the performances for whenever you say it failed to qualify (i.e. was it #9 or #4?)
After history
"the country's national colours" are they national colors, or just flag's colors?
" it was most recently renovated i" plural?
the stadium section is a bit longer than it needs to be; who cares about vip boxes and other aluminium crap?
when was the last time a game was played at a different stadium?
supporters section could probably benefit from an image (of supporters painted/dressed in whatever color(s))
rivalries
please give some statistics of W/D/L games
Records
"During the 1930 competition, a Peruvian became the first player sent off in a World Cup—his identity is disputed between sources" should probably be moved in the history part
"eru came top of their group in the first round, eliminating Chile and Bolivia, and in the semifinals drew with Brazil over two legs, winning 3–1 in Brazil but losing 2–0 at home. Peru were declared winners by drawing of lots. In the two-legged final between Colombia and Peru, both teams won their respective home games (1–0 in Bogota and 2–0 in Lima), forcing a play-off in Caracaswhich Peru won 1–0" should be summarized in the history section
perhaps mention here that only the big three won the cup more than twice
the bottom two para in the olympic section are TMI
Players
please decrease the font size to something like 90% and auto-hide the recent callumps stuff
add a (hidden) table for the notable players section with caps and goals
Thank you for the review Nergaal. I addressed the most important that I could easily fix at the moment. Some comments:
The Ciclista Lima etc. citation (#22) covers two sentences.
I'm very limited when it comes to tables & other such Wiki-gadgets. Plus, I remember the WP:FOOTIE members did not want for the player tables to be altered from the current consensus (all football articles have the same format for the player tables).
I'd prefer for the history section to have no subsections.
Ian plans to close this FAC on either Friday or Saturday. Hopefully it will pass so that this FAC review matter is not again repeated for a fifth time. We can discuss the other suggestions you're making afterwards. Best regards.--MarshalN20Talk04:06, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nergaal, most of your suggestions are merely personal preferences over non-major matters (including points that challenge the established consensus at WP:FOOTY). I have addressed those points that indeed required immediate attention (such as: [42]), but the rest can be discussed at a later date. As much as I appreciate your review, simply not abiding by everything you list does not entitle a logical oppose to this nomination. Best wishes.--MarshalN20Talk21:36, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, when Marshal and I discussed on my talk page, I said I'd close it Friday/Saturday if nothing much had changed, and since then John's concerns have been resolved and we've had an additional review, hence it's remained open. Now, it may be that some of Nergaal's suggestions are indeed not actionable because they don't follow football article conventions, and I know you've mentioned a couple of things and included a diff of changes above, Marshal, but it'd be easier for the FAC delegates to judge things if you responded to each of Nergaal's points to say it's been actioned or it hasn't been actioned because... Per FAC instructions, just don't use {{done}} templates or the like.
Also, have I missed a source review above, i.e. one checking the references for reliability and consistent formatting? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:26, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ian. I'll address the points in a list (which should match, point-by-point, what has been presented by Nergaal:
Intro
Addressed.
Addressed.
Disagree; Because: subject to personal preference; current introduction is the result of various past copy-edits (the last being conducted by Cliftonian), and I like it as well.
Your suggestion is a single one, which you then proceeded to elaborate. I don't see how it can be interpreted in any another manner, but I respect your perspective if you disagree. Regards.--MarshalN20Talk15:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
History
Disagree. I prefer that the section remain without subsections because it makes the table of contents and the section too bulky.
First international game was already mentioned, please read second paragraph. Friendlies are rarely important (i.e., the "first friendly" is unimportant).
The introduction & body did not have the same information. Introduction mentioned flag, but body talked about national colours. I addressed the problem with the following edit: [43]. Regards.--MarshalN20Talk15:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean.
Addressed. Section is 4 paragraphs, the standard summary length.
Disagree; too much information. Also, information is not available without conducting WP:OR.
How can you talk about a rivalry without saying who is winning that rivalry? It is like saying USA and USSR had a big rivalry during the cold war and not saying one of them eventually failed. Nergaal (talk) 08:46, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nergaal, the second sentence of the sections states: "The Peruvians have a favourable record against Ecuador and a negative record against Chile." This sentence indicates who is winning the rivalries. Regards.--MarshalN20Talk15:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Records
Disagree; this is a World Cup record.
Disagree; information is specifically related to Peru's Copa America record (second victory).
Good, but not necessary.
Addressed. Mixed the two paragraphs into a single one, removing extra information not directly related to the Olympic tournament.
Players
Recommendation is against WP:FOOTY conventions. All football articles have the same table.
Disagree. The player records section is at the end of the article.
Just based on the above it does look to me that the nominator has made a reasonable attempt to deal with these comments, and I'd welcome Nergaal's response. In the meantime, a source review is still needed, and I've listed a request at WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That sorted, I still believe the nominator has made reasonable efforts to address the concerns of the one opposing review, so it's time (finally) to promote. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk)
Comment from Giants2008
Comment – "the last incumbent was Uruguayan Sergio Markarian, who managed the team from 2010 from 2013." Last "from" should be "to" instead.Giants2008 (Talk) 03:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Back, with another candidate on an obscure, lost, Indonesian film by Rd. Ariffien (i.e. after Asmara Moerni). Unlike my previous nominations, this one is not based on a novel, stage play, or original screenplay, but rather a legend which reportedly took place in the Ciamis area. Using some sources I got at Sinematek Indonesia, I've managed to put together what appears to be the most comprehensive discussion of this film yet published.
Support – the article is superb and I am happy to vouch my support for its promotion to FAC. I have given this another read through and can see no real problems. A few minor quibbles:
"beloved to his people and his wife Naganingroem." Why am I wanting to say "beloved by his people and his wife Naganingroem."?
"The premiere of Tjioeng Wanara was shown to a packed theatre. Reception of the film, however, was mixed. An anonymous review in the Soerabaijasch Handelsblad was positive, considering the film to be successful in its adaptation of the legend, while another, in the same newspaper, recommended it." – I would swap "considering" to "considered".
Support I find the article much more convincing than the plot! I wondered about considering/-ed, but I'm OK with the current version. Text fails to use the word "fulvous", but since it's a monochrome film I guess that's OK too. Nice article Jimfbleak - talk to me?07:17, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"which was screened through 1948" Do you mean something like "until 1948"? through 1948 would mean from Jan-Dec 1948, without any mention of whether it was screened any other year. Perhaps, given what you say in the body, "which was still being screened as late as 1948" would work?
"using the name of Balai Pustaka, the official publishing house of the Dutch East Indies government known for its printed versions of traditional tales, in advertisements." You mention Balai Pustaka in the previous section- you may want to consider moving this description to earlier. If you prefer it your way (and I can see why you might) please do not change it on my account.
I think I prefer it further down, owing to the sentence construction on the first mention and the fact that BP's status as a state-run publisher was more important in relation to the advertising than anything else. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:55, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Titles which are the names of individuals or films (Tjioeng Wanara, AB Djoenadi, etc. are not translated). Neither are titles in which the translation would be the same as the Dutch/Indonesian ("Sampoerna: 'Tjioeng Wanara'": Sampoerna being the name of the movie theatre, Tjioeng Wanara being this film, playing in said theatre). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
An article about the only official constellation depicting an insect...Musca the fly...this was enjoyable to work on with lots of interesting stars and connections. I feel it is the equal of several other constellations I have buffed to FAC. Have at it. Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 12:49, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Casliber. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
About LP 154-141: "It is considered a good candidate to look for Jupiter-like planets." Why?
this is a little tricky as to how much information to put in the constellation article as a teaser in some ways, and elaborating in the daughter article. Essentially as a nearby and relatively hot and heavy white dwarf - the latter two points mean that it has formed more recently and the overall system was a more massive and hence short-lived one, and hence was of cosmologically more recent origin (I presume this is because the system then should have higher metallicity and hence more likely to have planets, but I can't find that stated in the source article...Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 20:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Being located in the plane of the Milky Way, I'm surprised at the dearth of deep-sky objects. Are there really no more interesting ones in this entire constellation?
don't recall seeing anthing else and it is a small constellation, will make another pass over literature...found tow more planetary nebs - will add a bit added so not so listyCas Liber (talk·contribs) 21:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised that the X-ray binary 2S 1254-690 isn't mentioned at all; it's certainly notable and interesting.
"...circumpolar at latitudes south of the 50th parallel in the Southern Hemisphere": true, but wouldn't it also be circumpolar up to the 25th parallel?
tricky that - the original reference was about the south polar constellations of which Musca is one. I found another ref which was a bit better. Technically something really low above the horizon is only visible if I am on the ocean or in a really flat location, so maybe 35S is more realistic than 25S for practical circumpolarity...?Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 04:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's only going to be low on the horizon for part of the Earth's rotation, and then only at night for around half of the year. Also, you can view the horizon from a hill or mountain top, even in rough terrain. But I can understand your point about practicality, since it is a faint constellation. Maybe if you had a good source concerning star altitude and limitations on naked eye visibility? Otherwise, 'practicality' may be relying too much on personal judgment. Praemonitus (talk) 04:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Damn - after a frustrating search I can't find anything that qualifies the statement to make it correct, or find a correct one. Hence the fact that the constellation is not prominent enough to be considered a landmark (i.e. you don't really use it to find anything) means that I have dropped the sentence on the basis that the fact is not notable enough to have been discussed or written anywhere...(i.e. sources talk of groups of constellations in the area being circumpolar rather than musca)Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 19:27, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
'proper motion','milliarcseconds', 'overcontact binary' should be wiki-linked.
"The white dwarf accumulates material from its companion star on its accretion disc until it erupts..."; that description is ambiguous and, I think, not quite correct. Matter flows from the companion to the accretion disk orbiting the white dwarf, and then down to the surface. It's the latter accumulation that undergoes runaway fusion.
Looks like another quality article. I have just a few questions:
In "History", you write "They assigned four stars to the constellation in their Malay and Madagascan vocabulary..." I'm not sure what this means. Did they use Malay names for the stars, or do you mean they wrote a book of Malay and Madagascan languages in which the stars were discussed, or something else altogether?
It means they happened to slot the information into a book that was otherwise this dictionary, the names and description had nothing to do with Malay and Madagascan otherwise. Would it help to add wording to clarify...?Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 18:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I ended up removing the dictionary bit as (ultimately) it is of little relevance exactly where it appeared...and it was easier to leave it thus than as reporting that it happened to be in a Malay and Madagascan vocabulary even though it had nothing to do with either language...Cas Liber (talk·contribs)
Funny - hadn't noticed that before but all constellation infoboxes have that layout. Might be worth discussing and have a bot go through (once we figure out what a better word is as I usually think of a list as a linear thing not a map...and just checking it is not editable from the article...Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 19:10, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Apis.jpg: source doesn't give enough information to confirm the validity of the given licensing tag (particularly as given date is date of upload rather than creation); also need US PD tag and resolution of the big red tag error. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Changed the tag on commons but have have removed it pending further information coming to light - just spent a while trying to look online to see which 18th century atlas it came from and can't. Cas Liber (talk·contribs) 19:10, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose. Minor things:
In some places we have light-years and in others light years. Choose one.
"...it is cooling and expanding along the Red Giant Branch, having left the main sequence". Although two main sequence star types are wikilinked, the article actually has no wikilink in it for "main sequence" as a concept. Also is there a link available for Red Giant Branch? And if "main sequence" is not capitalised, how come Red Giant Branch is?
"although further examination of the disk profile indicate it might be a more massive object such as a brown dwarf or more than one planet." That should read "indicates" or "may indicate", depending on whether the research has already been done - check the source and tweak.
still not fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:13, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
) ... this article has been through a rigorous GA review, a PR and a de facto second PR, and this FAC, which has included several commentators, including one who did a source spotcheck, that have not shared your concerns, so I am rather torn as to an appropriate course of action in this situation, as you seem to be the only one that thinks one must cite that the sky is blue. Fine, tag them with fact tags, but that really borders on disruptive. You are more than welcome to list on this page what you think needs cited (yes, I know there are 4 items above at which I have not yet had time to look), but introducing tags throwing the credibility of an already good article (see Talk:Jim Thome/GA1 - it was hardly a rubber stamp) is detrimental to the encyclopedia. Go Phightins! 10:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
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