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== September 2010 ==
== September 2010 ==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Slipknot (band)/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Babcock/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Babcock/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Everything That Happens Will Happen Today/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Everything That Happens Will Happen Today/archive1}}

Revision as of 23:34, 23 September 2010

September 2010

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:34, 23 September 2010 [1].

Slipknot (band)

Nominator(s): REZTER TALK ø 00:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because after a complete rewrite and edit I believe this article meets the FA Criteria. REZTER TALK ø 00:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment 2c: inability to verify statements against citation quality, leading to serious 1c issues. I reviewed the first 50 footnotes and the bibliography. Generally: lack of citation consistency, lack of locations for minor presses especially ones with common names, incorrect citation of the titles of newspapers and magazines. The most significant issue is lack of time stamps for material to be verified off sequentially played media (audio, video) which directly impacts on the capacity to verify and locate quotes and statements. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Multiple varying date formats, consistency please.
  • All three presses listed under "Literature" require locations for supply and verification purposes, they're small presses, at least one with a commonly used name.
  • Metro (London) is a newspaper, give them italics, indicate location (as it is a common title and requires clarification.)
  • "Slipknot – Up To Our Necks. [DVD]. Chrome Dreams. 2004." — lacks editor / director attribution; press requires location. Both the 16 second excerpt and the claim, "At this time the future of Slipknot was unclear and there was speculation over whether the band had split and the possibility of a third album." are footnoted to this. Neither has a time-stamp location for the point at which the proof occurs in the text.
  • "Slipknot – X-Posed, The Interview. [CD]. Chrome Dreams. 2001." editor or interviewer, press location, time stamp for the portion referred to.
  • "Porter, Dick (2003). Rapcore: The Nu-Metal Rap Fusion. London: Plexus. ISBN 0859653218." Location in text cited required for verification purposes.
  • ""The joy of 666". NME. 15 May 2001. http://www.nme.com/news/slipknot/7781. Retrieved 25 April 2009." NME is a magazine, deserves italics for its title.
  • "Shawn Crahan (Director). (2006). Voliminal: Inside the Nine. [DVD]. Roadrunner Records." timestamp for verification purposes
  • USA Today is a Newspaper.
  • ""Slipknot Bassist Died Of 'Accidental' Overdose". Belinda Goldsmith, Reuters. 2010-06-22. http://www.billboard.com/news/slipknot-bassist-died-of-accidental-overdose-1004099551.story#/news/slipknot-bassist-died-of-accidental-overdose-1004099551.story. Retrieved 2010-08-20." Authors come first

THe article is underdeveloped, espcially the style section which has two sentences dicussing lyrics and little on genre of music. Sentence oddities like "Including; a case in 2003 " and non-sentences like Featuring a typical heavily down-tuned guitar set-up (lead, rhythm, and bass guitars), two percussionists in addition to the primary drummer and electronics (samples and turntables). redundancies: Burger King responded to the suit with a countersuit, and in that suit pointed out that many other bands. just pointing out. Taylor had this to say. just said. Furthering his point by saying: "there are always going to be mental disorders and people who cause violence for no other reason than the fact that they're fucked up and lost." again not a proper sentence. Even though Slipknot have been linked to several cases like this, there has been no incidents in which they were proven to be liable. redundant first part. vocalist taylor appears a thousand times. we already recognise this the first time. also issues with tense switching back and forth/ Another source of controversy was the band's 2005 lawsuit against Burger King, claiming that company created the advertising based band Coq Roq to capitalize on Slipknot's image. not grammatical and hyphen. "advertising campaign designed to motivate young people to vote". there's lawsuit and then the next minute theres a campaign getting young people to vote? Throughout their career, Slipknot have continued to develop and change their image. continued redundant with throughout. Several band members have noted that wearing the masks helps keep their personal lives private, percussionist Fehn went as far as saying it was a "blessing" that they do not get recognized. new sentence, or semi-colon. Most notably; for the music video and live performances of the song "Vermilion" in 2004 and 2005 the band members wore death masks made from casts of their own faces,[74] and in 2008 prior to the release of All Hope Is Gone Slipknot released photos of the band wearing large masks, guitarist Root explained that they "represent the ego" - this sentence is an unrepentant abomination. strong oppose edit conflict. 86.141.247.236 (talk) 01:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I have copeditted the sections you brought to my attention and I have extended the Styles and lyrical themes section. I hope you think it's of a better standard and would appreciate your revised opinion on it. --REZTER TALK ø 19:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment According to these three books, the band's first name was "Meld", a name that I cannot find mentioned in the present article at all (even though it was present in earlier versions). This is odd; is there a reason for this? It also seems to me these books contain a wealth of further details on the band's history and performance style that one might expect to see covered in a comprehensive treatment; I believe there is room for article expansion. As another reviewer noted above, the article still needs copyediting -- sentences like "As well as their usual masks, there has been several occasions in which Slipknot have incorporated special masks for specific reasons." fall well short of FA standards. --JN466 02:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment When I rewrote the main body of the article I wanted the article to more concise. I thought it would be a better move to remove some information that I thought was trivial and keep the article on track without going in to too much detail. I actually deliberated over the use of 'Meld' in the article because they only used it once in a performance before changing it. However, I'd be more than happy to include it in the article. I believe the article is comprehensive and concise and there are other articles based on Slipknot (for example; albums, band members, tours) that go in to further detail. As for copyeditting issues, I don't think the article has terrible issues and I thought that they could be addressed with the comments from reviewers in this process. I would appreciate reviewers help on identifying problems in the article and suggestions on how to make it better. --REZTER TALK ø 10:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not just that we don't mention the Meld performance (I think we should, given that at least three books mention it), it's also that we seem to say the group's first name was "The Pale Ones", a statement which is unsourced. The nearest source cited is Arnopp, but Arnopp does not appear to mention that name. [2], [3]. I can't find the name "The Pale Ones" in any RS. --JN466 14:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have added the info on Meld. And the book by Arnopp is the correct source for The Pale Ones. It appears that google books only has a blurb from that book. The exact excerpt from page 40 is: "Come September 1995 [...] Shawn and Paul had started a new endeavour named The Pales Ones" "Shawn was on drums, while Anders Colsefni sang and ex-Body Pit guitarist named Donnie Steele riffed it up." --REZTER TALK ø 14:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, thanks. The article contains the sentence, "Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows, something which has been attributed to their early success." Two issues: (1) do we mean "contributed" to their early success? "Attributed" does not really make sense. (2) I am having a hard time extracting that info from the cited source, which is http://www.nme.com/reviews/slipknot/6129 .
  • Fixed, I copeditted it and replaced the reference with Allmusic, specifically per this excerpt: "They gradually built an audience through near-constant touring, working their way up to the summer Ozzfest package tour, which really expanded their audience. Their live shows were a much-discussed hit with metal fans, and the band performed with such energy that Crahan gashed his head open on his own drum kit twice that summer, requiring stitches both times." --REZTER TALK ø 21:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The next sentence is, "Typically featuring most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting." You won't get the prose to pass here if you have sentences like that (there are a good number of such sentences.) You can write, Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows, typically featuring most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting. Or you can write, Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows. These typically feature most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting. But you can't write, Slipknot are known for their chaotic and energetic live shows. Typically featuring most band members headbanging, several members stage diving and even fighting. That won't pass as "excellent prose" here. Generally, every sentence is expected to have a subject and a verb, and the second sentence has no subject. You need to go through the article and reformulate sentence fragments that have been made to do the job of sentences; sometimes it may be enough to turn the preceding period into a comma or semi-colon, in other cases you may have to reformulate. Now, the cited source for this sentence is http://www.nme.com/news/slipknot/45333 ; this does not comment on what a "typical" Slipknot show looks like, but is a review of an individual concert. It seems quite plausible that what is described in the review is typical of the band's live shows, but to pass the FA criteria you need to find a source that comments on the typical style of their shows, rather than a review of a single show. For example, is it typical that members have a fist fight, or was it an isolated occurrence? The cited source does not tell us.
  • Fixed, I copyeditted the highlighted sentences and added the reference from the Rapcore book, specifically this excerpt: "Live, Slipknot are a spectacle of non-stop motion, which regularly decends to the level of on-stage brawling between band members." --REZTER TALK ø 21:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The rationales on the two music files are downright wrong; they use extremely general terms (which sets off warning signals- a specific explanation of what is being illustrated and why that needs to be illustrated is required) but both rationales claim the songs are "specifically discussed in the article", which they are not. J Milburn (talk) 01:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:35, 23 September 2010 [4].

John Babcock

Nominator(s): Canadian Paul 17:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it meets all the criteria of a featured article, and over half a year has passed since the subject's death, making it less susceptible to major changes in the future. It had an A-class review at the Military History Wikiproject where all concerns were addressed, but did not pass because it did not attract enough reviewers. It did, however, pass a Good Article review and was kept during the GA sweeps process. Canadian Paul 17:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks; the external link to Video Interview with John Babcock is dead. PL290 (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find it anywhere else, so I removed it, as it was merely supplemental. Canadian Paul 23:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Newspaper and magazine titles in the refs should be in italics. A few are, but the rest aren't, so it should be consistent.
  • Need a page number for current ref 8 (Holmes...)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool (except for the deadlink as noted above) Ealdgyth - Talk 19:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, hopefully. I replaced the Holmes reference because I couldn't find the information again in a search... plus I think it was referring to British soldiers anyhow... Canadian Paul 23:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose - interesting article, and I'd love to be able to support, but I don't think it's quite at FA standard. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Canadian spelling and conventions only please - particularly "First World War" vs "World War I" (and Two)
  • Is the township called South Frontenac Township or simply South Frontenac? Be consistent
  • Maclean's should be italicized
  • "On growing up in the area, Babcock claims" - not fond of this phrasing, and since he's now deceased it should probably be past tense
  • "He would return to the area in 1919...but soon after left for the United States" - grammar
  • "Nevertheless, Babcock's relatives continue to work at the Crater Dairy farm...and the community grew to greatly respect John" - phrasing
  • Specify $C vs $US - it's unclear for some values
  • Some overlap between sections, and some statements contradict each other
  • "Babcock then undertook an ocean voyage to England and, in Liverpool, he was stationed with the 26th Reserve and sent to Bexhill-on-Sea where he trained with about 1,300 others, about a third of whom were veterans from battles in France" - quite a long sentence, could it be split?
  • "There Babcock underwent a physical, where it was discovered that he was underage. He was designated status A-4: physically fit, but underage.[6] At the time, the minimum age for combat was eighteen.[8] Babcock was turned down, but managed to make it all the way to Halifax by train before he was stopped by the company commander.[6]" - a bit repetitious
  • "Soldiers holding acting ranks in the Canadian forces receive the salary and allowances of the rank, but can be reverted to a previous rank at any time due to their lack of the necessary training or experience to hold that position permanently" - the source uses past tense for this information - is it still true today?
  • What head tax? Please explain briefly
  • "moved there in the 1921" - missing word?
  • Chronology in the first part of "After World War I" is unclear - did he move to the US before or after becoming an electrician? Before or after running the light plant? If before, when did he return to Canada? Section needs a bit of rearranging/clarifying
  • Which wife produced the children?
  • Being a Canadian veteran isn't necessarily the same thing as being a veteran of the Canadian military
  • "He was proud of his status as the last surviving Canadian World War I veteran" - not supported by the source, and the rest of the article seems to suggest otherwise
  • Did he receive greetings from the Queen for his 107th or 109th birthday?
  • Don't repeat wikilinks, especially not in close proximity
  • In References, be consistent in whether authors are listed first-name-first or last-name-first
  • Elizabeth II ref should be formatted in a manner consistent with the other refs
  • Name publishers consistently - CBC News or CBC.ca? etc
  • Page for refs 5 and 7?
  • Ref 17: if this is a web source, why is there no link or retrieval date?


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:25, 23 September 2010 [5].

Everything That Happens Will Happen Today

Nominator(s): —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I put a lot of work into it and it appears to pass all FAC criteria and is consistent with other featured album articles. This article has been GA for over a year and any changes that would be made to it at this point would be relatively minor. I will watch this discussion and make any necessary changes. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: I have been through the first 50 or so, and found numerous issues. It will take a long time to get through the rest, so perhaps you would look at these meantime. Brianboulton (talk) 22:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I will work on this today. Thanks for your input. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:17, 23 September 2010 [6].

Thrud the Barbarian

Nominator(s): GDallimore (Talk) 00:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... it has received many good tweaks since the last nomination, some responding to specific comments there, some just to improve it having left it alone for two years and come back with fresh eyes. It's about as ready as it's ever going to be. GDallimore (Talk) 00:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've been searching for something to replace that dead link for a while, and decided the best option was to link to the online version of the rule book. I'd prefer to cite the original paper rulebook, but don't know the publication details. GDallimore (Talk) 10:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They are. GDallimore (Talk) 20:31, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, taking a read through. Pop culture seems to struggle to get reviewed here :)

  • "Golden Age" Why caps?
  • "On moving on to art college in Liverpool, Thrud" Thrud went to art college? :P
  • "His work on this story was fully painted, and while considered impressive[21] was also criticised as being forced, confused[21] and muddy.[22]" Perhaps this could be expanded a little? Packing all that into one sentence... Also, direct quotes probably wouldn't hurt.
  • Was the White Dwarf stuff all inked? Could that perhaps be mentioned in the prose?
  • Why was Thrud dropped from White Dwarf?
  • "His new style was also noticed and received positive comments.[1]" Is that the extent of the reviews we have?
  • "a helmet having a pair" Rephrase?
  • "one of the best loved pieces" isn't a very neutral term
  • "and fans remember him as being from the period "before White Dwarf was crap"." Again, not so sure about this
  • I'm not feeling the legacy section- it doesn't seem to be about Thrud.
  • Category:Fantasy comics? Category:Fictional kings? Category:Fictional mercenaries?
  • Sorry, but the reliability of most sources isn't immediately clear- could you please explain? Also, could you double check italics? TRS2, for instance, is italicised in the text butwhy not the references.
    • TRS2?
    • Bulletproof Comics?
    • The Ninth Art?
    • 2000AD Review?
    • 3dtotal?
    • Grand Comics Database?
    • enjolrasworld?
    • GameHobby.net?
    • Forbidden Planet?
    • Strike to Stun?
    • Collecting Citadel Miniatures wiki? (Wikis are always questionable...)
    • Heresy Miniatures?
  • Links in the refs would also be nice- Jervis Johnson, for instance
  • While it looks, at first glance, that there's a lot of non-free content, this is a topic that demands it. File:Thrud miniatures.jpg feels a bit spare- other than that, they're ok. The rationale on the Arnie clone could do with cleaning up- clarify why the image is needed.
  • I note some references are "Smith, John", while others are "John Smith". The way you cite self-published sources is also inconsistent.

Overall, I'm afraid I don't think this is quite there. The reliability of sources is an issue, but the short paragraphs and sections, unreferenced bits and bobs and mid-sentence referencing means that the article doesn't flow perfectly, either. I also question the comprehensiveness here; I couldn't honestly say what it is that is missing, but I do not feel I walk away from this article knowing all about the subject. J Milburn (talk) 00:10, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on sources, as per above: Few of the online sources appear to be of high quality and reliable. Brianboulton (talk) 23:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The sources issue is not major and can be dealt with quite easily in FAC if I'm given more than 24 hours to respond to comments. Please reopen it. GDallimore (Talk) 23:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning sources. Many of them are non-mainstream and minor, but that is because they are part of a network of British small, independent press titles. Nevertheless, care has been taken to select only the best sources or to select sources which clearly accurately verify the information in the article. Taking them source by source

TRS2 - online version of a long running small publication review magazine (TRS, The Review Sheet) and part of the bugpowder network, formerly a comics distributor (see British_small_press_comics#The_1990s). Although in blog format, it has a long term editor in the form of Jez Higgins who commissions reviews. Indeed, the particularly review being linked was written by Jez Higgins. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

Bulletproof Comics - website has had a significant overhaul, but at the time was a comic book resource under the auspices of editor Matt Yeo who commissioned reviews. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

The Ninth Art - website has had a significant overhaul, but at the time was a comic art resource with regular contributors and editorial oversight. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

2000AD Review - website is now shut down but for many years posted reviews of every 2000AD issue commissioned by editor Gavin Hanly. Although independent of 2000AD is appears it was supported by Rebellion Developments, the publishers of 2000AD. This official support combined with the editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

3dtotal - the source is an interview with Carl Critchlow and is being used to confirm facts about Carl Critchlow's inspiration, so must be a reliable source in that context.

Grand Comics Database - this site was only being used to provide online confirmation of the contents of published issues of White Dwarf. The references have been rephrased to make White Dwarf the source with the GCD being merely a url as part of the reference.

enjolrasworld - site was being used to provide online confirmation of the contents of published issues of Warrior. Link removed as was a duplicate reference.

GameHobby.net - again, site was being used to provide online confirmation of the contents of published issues of Warrior. The references have been rephrased to make Warrior the source with the site being merely a url as part of the reference.

Forbidden Planet - These were being used merely to provide images of the front cover of the Thrud comics. The references have been rephrased to make the comics the source and to link to FP only as an online image.

Strike to Stun - another defunct website, but at the time provided reviews written by regular commentators under the auspices of editor Natascha Chrobok. This editorial oversight makes it a reliable source particularly in the context that the source is being used for personal opinions about the Thrud comics.

Collecting Citadel Miniatures wiki - the link is to a collection of photos of Thrud miniatures, and is therefore easily confirmed as providing reliable information. In particular, the wiki is only being used to provide a date of production of an early thrud miniature and the source gives its source for that piece of information: it is written on the bottom of the miniature itself.

Heresy Miniatures - the source is being used for information about their own production line and must be a reliable source in that context.

Hope that explains everything. GDallimore (Talk) 12:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:11, 23 September 2010 [7].

Arado Ar E.381

Nominator(s): WikiCopterRadioChecklistFormerly AirplanePro 19:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I have gone through a failed A-class review with WP:MILHIST, where consensus was not garnered, and I feel I have met all the concerns raised there. WikiCopterRadioChecklistFormerly AirplanePro 19:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 19:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I don't know the FAC process very well, but you might to at least get rid of the citation needed tag by adding in a reference. Also, I don't know much in aircrafts, but is there nothing more to be added in? While there is no set size for a FA article, I think more information should be added in. Derild4921☼ 20:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This article was listed as a GA only a few weeks ago and several concerns were raised during its failed MilHist A-class review that I do not agree have been dealt with. In addition, the story it's telling is rather confused. For instance, "They [the Arado Ar E.381s] probably had only very limited capability against fighters", yet apparently "full production of the aircraft was cancelled before any could be used on the battlefield", therefore they clearly had no capability against fighters, as they never entered service. I'm not even sure after reading this whether any were actually built, as the design details are full of "The pilot would lie in in a prone position", "It was to be powered by a Walter HWK 109-509A-2 engine", and "the aircraft was to be armed with six rockets of an unspecified kind", implying that it never got off the drawing board. To be perfectly honest, I would have failed this article at GAN, never mind FAC. Malleus Fatuorum 20:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Malleus. If you've searched all the English sources, you may have to delve into German-language sources, and if those don't hold anything, this may be one of those articles which just doesn't have enough information on it to be able to pass FAC. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on a prose review. It's fine with me if writers spend their time writing and not learning how to copyedit, but please get help from a copyeditor. I'm doing my best to get copyeditors to help out at SHIPS and MILHIST.

  • (German: Kleinstjäger – "small fighter"): might as well give the literal "smallest fighter", although Germans and military historians might correct me on that. Also, I see the {{lang-de}} template in use a lot, but do we really need to be told that a German fighter had a German name? It seems redundant to me. - Dank (push to talk)
  • jet powered: jet-powered - Dank (push to talk)
  • usage: "use" is more common in this sense - Dank (push to talk)
  • Its intended usage was the interception of American and British bombers after closing the firing distance to a minimum, thus increasing odds of hitting the target.: Wait, what? This sounds as if the fighter is intended to slam into a target ... not likely with a pilot inside. - Dank (push to talk)
  • To enable survival of the interceptor in close pursuit: "enable" means that the interceptor would not survive unless it had that cross section, which isn't true; you mean "increase the odds of" or some synonym. Also, the reader can't understand what the sentence is trying to convey unless you say what danger is being avoided by that design. - Dank (push to talk)
  • cross-section: "cross section" is better. Also, a lot of readers are going to need a link for this. - Dank (push to talk)
  • one-quarter of: "one quarter of", or better yet, "a quarter of". - Dank (push to talk)
  • glide back to the ground and land on skids in unpowered flight: something's redundant in there. - Dank (push to talk)
  • The project continued until the end of the war, but was eventually cancelled due to the collapse of the Third Reich: "The project was cancelled when the Third Reich collapsed." (Passive voice is the best I can do without knowing the subject.) - Dank (push to talk)
  • That was all in the first two paragraphs. - Dank (push to talk) 21:23, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


P.S. I'm just starting to look at the MILHIST FACs now that I have a better idea what I'm doing ... lucky you :) Don't get discouraged; none of us think this can't be a FAC eventually if you find the right sources, and finding a little copyediting help and getting help with translation of a German source or two are not hard with a little effort. - Dank (push to talk) 02:44, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

a

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [8].

David Carradine

Nominator(s): Ishtar456 (talk) 23:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I expanded this article substantially several months ago. It passed GA review without any recommendations from the reviewer, in February. It receives between 3-4K hits per day, and it is stable with no edit wars. It is thoroughly researched and the sources are cited. It covers every aspect of the topic and is neutral in POV. Ishtar456 (talk) 23:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added bolded inserted text. --Ishtar456 (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I am not liking the use of either of those non-free images at all, and the rationales are completely unenlightening. It's rare we need to use non-free images to show actors in role in the articles on the actors, even if they're only known for a single role. Why do you feel they're needed? J Milburn (talk) 00:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not liking the derogatory way you phrased your comment, but I did remove the offending images.--Ishtar456 (talk) 20:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if that came across as derogatory, it certainly wasn't meant to be. J Milburn (talk) 23:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please be move specific about the "many unsourced paragraphs"? I removed one sentence that predated the expansion: "During this time Carradine's alcoholism escalated and he entered alcohol drug rehabilitation". Everything that is there regarding his personal life I wrote, and sourced and I don't really discuss specific marital problems (except one affair which is sourced). All the statements made are cited. So I do not see "many unsourced paragraphs". Please give at least a couple of examples.--Ishtar456 (talk) 19:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
and will work on cleaning up citations. --Ishtar456 (talk) 20:01, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Paras 1, 3, 4 in "early successes" and last one in "Kung fu" for instance YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:58, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – Shouldn't be a GA because of a lack of sourcing. How could a wikipedian with 300+ GAN reviews pass this without any comments? Pretty poor I think. Seems as if he wanted to rack up the GAN reviews... Aaroncrick TALK 08:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed an unsourced paragraph that was incerted AFTER the GA review. Everything else in that section has been cited somewhere else in the article and I am going to add the citations later in the day. If we could be grown ups we might say "this is something that should be like this instead of that" and leave out all the judgemental insulting crap. Some people wonder why more people don't try to get their article FA-the insults might be one reason.--Ishtar456 (talk) 09:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's a fair comment. I don't know who reviewed it for GA, nor do I need to. Whoever it was, please assume they are editing in good faith. Wackywace converse | contribs 10:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh great, the article is already nominated at FAC and you've decided to go ahead and add refs after it has started. It may be cited somewhere else but it's not now. Aaroncrick TALK 11:12, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [9].

Lady of Quality

Nominator(s): Karanacs (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you were running away from a forced marriage, would you take your almost-fiance with you? If you were the heroine of a romance novel, would you turn down the hero's marriage proposal? Join me in exploring the antics showcased in a classic Regency romance. Lady of Quality was the last book written by Georgette Heyer. It's fairly short, but comprehensive–I know of no other research that exists on this book. User:Malleus Fatuorum promoted it to GA earlier this year and did some light copyediting (which gives him the highest edit count - I worked in big chunks), and provided other support during that process. Thanks for taking a look! Karanacs (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC) edited Karanacs (talk) 13:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC) [reply]

  • Support. As Karanacs says, I gave this article a bit of a leathering during its GA review, but it was little more than moving a few commas around. I looked for additional sourcing on critical reviews, but this type of novel tends not to get much scholarly attention, or indeed any critical attention. I was satisfied then, and I'm satisfied now, that this is just about as good an account of one of Georgette Heyer's later novels that's likely to be found anywhere, and that it fully meets the FA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 21:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support this is a good article unlike the many crap ones i've seen 86.141.247.236 (talk) 02:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. On a quick read this seems very thin and generic; I see little which differentiates this novel from any of Heyer's later works. Can you get hold of the notes from the Heyer conference held in 2009 (Re-reading Georgette Heyer)? There was a paper on "lesbian anxiety" in Lady of Quality; there's a brief summary here. The plot summary doesn't mention Maria Farlow, a Miss Bates-like character (mentioned Hodge p203) who is one of the unusual features of the novel compared with the usual formula. Also Hodge has some criticisms on the novel's pacing and "one really failed scene" (p202). Espresso Addict (talk) 19:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you so much for bringing this conference to my attention! I have emailed the professor who organized it (who also happens to have presented the session on this book) to see if any of the papers have been published, and whether I might be able to get a copy of them. I also no longer have a copy of the Hodge book. If I can't get the information from these sources within the next day or two I'll withdraw the nomination. Karanacs (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have a copy of the presentation now, but according to the author, it has not been formally published. I've never worked with this type of source, so I've put a question at RSN on whether it would be considered a reliable source. Comments welcome at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Conference_papers. Karanacs (talk) 14:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The RSN discussion appears to have ended [10], and it appears to me that the general thought is that the conference paper should not be included as it has never been published - one would have to email the author to verify the information. I did more searching this weekend and found a university master's thesis that was just published. I'm going to incorporate that information into the article today. Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral The entire plot section is unreferencedApparently plots aren't sourced.. Sentences like "Rather than marry Ninian, as her guardian wished, Lucilla ran away, and Ninian is escorting her to ensure her safe arrival in Bath" are confusing (tense). "Carleton proposes marriage, but Annis, unwilling to relinquish her independence, refuses" could be restructured to avoid the single word fragment. "As the story opens, Annis Wychwood, a wealthy, beautiful, and intelligent woman, reaches the age of majority, giving her greater control over her personal and financial affairs" reads like a list. "Soon after their arrival, members of the household contract influenza" seems a bit abrupt. Aiken (talk) 14:13, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Plot sections are very frequently unreferenced, as the source for the plot is the work itself. Malleus Fatuorum 14:42, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • As it was probably my crappy copyediting during the GA review that introduced the sentences you've identified as being troublesome I felt honour-bound to try and fix them. See what you think now. Malleus Fatuorum 23:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "On the way to her new home Annis meets Lucilla Carleton and Ninian Elmore. Lucilla is running away to Bath to avoid her marriage to Ninian, a match that her guardian is very much in favor of, and Ninian is escorting her to ensure her safe arrival." This reads fine now, but I'm confused with what it says. So Lucilla is running away from marriage, but her proposed husband is taking her? Also, I'm not sure if it's convention, but shouldn't last names be used instead of first? Or is that not applicable when discussing fictional characters? Aiken (talk) 23:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Obviously it's not confusing at all, as yes, Lucilla is running away and her proposed husband is escorting her. There's no convention about whether to use first or last names, so long as they're used consistently and unambigously. In this particular case of a romantic novel I think it would jar a little to call the heroine "Wychwood" rather than "Annis". Malleus Fatuorum 23:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'd have thought if she was running away from marriage, the last person she would want to go with her would be her proposed husband. I'm going to stay neutral on this, per Espresso Addict's points above. Aiken (talk) 23:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I think you're starting to lose the plot here Aiken, so to speak. This is a novel, a work of fiction. In this fictional universe Lucilla's proposed husband did escort her to Bath. It's a story. Malleus Fatuorum
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [11].

Air well (condenser)

Nominator(s): Gaius Cornelius (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it was a popular article when it appeared in Did You Know, it has already achieved Good Article status and it is a matter of practical importance to people in certain regions of the world. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Nitpicks:-

  • Ref 9 "Alton" - is this correct? Biblioraphy shows joint authors "Alton Stewart, Bobby" and "Terry A. Howell"
  • Ref 17: not properly formatted. Who is "Klaphake", where is the quote taken from? Why not cite the original source?
  • Ref 37: Acknowledgement where?
  • Ref 53: Incomplete format - only the publisher given. Title, author?
  • Pugsley is the only book with a publisher location. For consistency it's an "all or none" thing, so I'd get rid of this.

Otherwise sources all look OK Brianboulton (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The article is not well-organized. My concerns, in order of severity:

  • This article has information about the history of the technology, the different types, and the applications all jumbled together, making it impossible for the reader to find desired pieces of information. My preferred organization: History for information about how the technology was developed, High-mass collectors/Radiative collectors/Active collectors to describe the current state of each of those technologies and how they differ from each other, and Applications for information about how the technologies are put to use.
  • As per WP:LEAD, the lead section should be a summary of important information about an article. The lead should not introduce new material that is not present in the body of the article. As such, the second paragraph should probably not exist, as dew ponds are not mentioned elsewhere in the article. I suggest relocating this information to the "See Also" section.
  • The hidden subsection International Organization for Dew Utilization should either be merged into a history section or a new major section Organizations should be developed. Perhaps a combination of both, considering that some of the information here relates to Zibold's condenser.
  • I do not understand why there are subsection headings that are set off by semi-colons rather than being the usual continuation of section headers. These are much harder to find than generic section headers because they are not in the TOC and they are smaller.

I will also be conducting a line-by-line prose review, but I will wait until the above comments are addressed and the article is in a more stable state. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reorganising the text will take a while. Please be patient. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 17:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, mate. Ping me here or on my talk page if you need any other input. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [12].

Banquo

Nominator(s): Wrad (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This would be the first Shakespeare character article to reach FA status. Currently a GA. Wrad (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—a dab link to Fort William, no dead external links. Ucucha 20:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • image review All the images are suitably licensed, one typo fixed in description Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This is essentially Banquo (character), & should probably either be expanded or renamed. Whether there was a historical Banquo, and what he might have got up to, needs expansion if it stays as it is. The fictional Banquo is obviously much the better known, and probably qualifies as the "primary meaning", but I don't think fictional characters should usurp even the most obscure real people they are very loosely based on. Also, there's plenty of room for the woodcut from Holinshead and the Fuseli that are at Three Witches, both rather more interesting than the pictures used so far. Johnbod (talk) 22:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • On the naming of the article, I can see your side of it. If people think renaming to Banquo (character) makes more sense, that would be an easy change. Expansion doesn't seem like the best move here, since this article is intended to be about the character in Macbeth, not the real Banquo (if he existed).
    • The pictures are a different story. I really like our picture of Banquo as a ghost sitting at the feast in Macbeth's place, and don't think anything at Three Witches could replace it. It is Banquo's most famous scene. On the other hand, the second picture might be worth replacing. Wrad (talk) 22:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not suggesting replacing anything? The article has only two images, and tons of space. Johnbod (talk) 22:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "rather more interesting." Wrad (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, One is progress! Johnbod (talk) 04:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is the naming of the article a critical issue or can it be left until after FAC for a move discussion (to avoid messing with links to to various pages and such)? While I haven't looked specifically on the issue of whether there's material on the historical Banquo, I'm fairly sure there will never be an article on him (iff he existed at all, there doesn't appear to be enough data for much original research, much less encyclopedic coverage). I don't particularly care about the naming of the article—above vaguely general esthetic concerns—but neither do I see much value for the project in having a dab page at Banquo whose only link is to Banquo (character) when the character is the clear (snowball) primary meaning. If new research is done, or sources we've missed are found, this article can easily accommodate that information for quite some time before there's a need to split them (and hence decide on which merits pride of place). --Xover (talk) 07:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose For an article on such a small subject, the writing is generally not great. This passage is especially problematic: "In Shakespeare's day, Banquo was thought to be a direct ancestor of the King James I. However, Banquo's Stuart descent was revised in the 19th century, when it was discovered that the portion of James' ancestry connected to Banquo, the Fitzalans, might plausibly have descended from a Breton family instead.[2] Whether or not Banquo, Thane of the Scottish province of Lochaber, actually existed remains in doubt."
Why "the" King?
You can't "revise" a "descent".
the next bit is still iffy, and must a source from 1884 be used?
Where does Lochaber come in, and what is the source for this? It has never remotely been a "province", and at this time was a parish at best.

There are numerous careless style points: "In Chronicles Banquo ...", "honor", no link to Cawdor, and so on. "Bradley, Andrew. Shakespearean Tragedy. Boston: Adamant Media Corporation, 2003" - he is always known as A. C. Bradley, and the book was first published in 1904, and has countless editions, which should be indicated. I think you were probably too quick to shorten the lead, which did meet the WP:LEAD suggested length, & I imagine now doesn't. But generally the prose just has an ungainly feel, & needs a good bit of polishing; a last example: "Banquo's ability to live on in different ways is another oppositional force, in this case to Macbeth's impending death." - meaning what exactly? Johnbod (talk) 04:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • This is extremely difficult to respond to since everything is all mashed together, but here goes. We can just remove the "the." It was left over from an earlier fix. You can, in fact, revise a descent. British monarchs are historically very good at doing that. People have been revising history for ages. I don't see a problem with using a 19th century source to cite something that happened in the 19th century.
It's a matter of vocubulary - it is the theory or whatever of his descent that is revised.
    • I see the point with your later source worries with Bradley.
    • We can fix little things, but I'm not sure what to do about an "ungainly feel."
I can see that; get someone else to copyedit it.
No, it doesn't. Johnbod (talk) 01:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Looks like it's a case of writer's blindness. I thought it had been copyedited, but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. Someone besides me better look at it. Wrad (talk) 04:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - not a bad article, just a few concerns. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Nomination withdrawn. If someone with a lot of time on his hands wants to dig up better sources, go for it. Wrad (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • So far all the issues brought up appear manageable, and there's no particular hurry (a typical FAC is open for, what, weeks?). Why not stick with it? I plan to help out as much as I can, and I think this article really has a shot. --Xover (talk) 07:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just have my own time constraints in real life and won't be able to deal with the source issues brought up. If you want to help out with that, maybe we can deal with it. Wrad (talk) 17:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm looking for a more modern source for the bit about the Stuarts' ancestry now, but it'll be a bit challenging as I don't think anyone has really addressed it specifically after Chalmers assigned the Fitzallans a Breton ancestry in 1809 (iirc). But even if we can't dig up a more recent source for it it'd probably be ok to just remove the relevant sentence; it's most relevant to a postulated historical Banquo (which, as far as I can tell, nobody much is suggesting ever existed) and, more importantly, to an article on James I and the Stuarts, than to Banquo in Macbeth (i.e. this article). Other than that the concerns appear to be chiefly related to prose, and that's nothing that can't be fixed by a thorough copyedit, which I'll be happy to help out with. Again, we're in no hurry here; as long as manage to address the concerns brought up by the reviewers in a reasonable time there's no need to obsessively refresh the review page for hours each day, jumping to fix every little point in minutes (as I know I tend to do when I'm excited about a GA/FA nom). The FAC reviewers may be editor-eating meanies, who welcome proud editors in and spit shivering neurotic wrecks back out, but they're usually patient editor-eating meanies. :-) And if worse come to worse, and we ultimately fail to pass as FA this time, the reviews will have helped improve the article immensely in the mean time, and we'll know what the weak points are that need to be fix before a second nom. In other words, don't sweat it; let's just address what we can in the time we have available and see how far that gets us. As I mention above, I think the worst problem is the prose and that's entirely fixable. Anyways, unless you're still sure you want to withdraw the nomination (in which case it'll be closed, and nobody will waste time doing a review that won't be addressed), I suggest we move this discussion to the review page's Talk page to avoid cluttering up the review, and then dig in to do the work. --Xover (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly don't think this nom is hopeless, or I would have said so (maybe - well anyway I don't). But the prose does need a good going through. Johnbod (talk) 01:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just didn't think I could handle everything timewise, but if Xover is willing to help we can keep moving ahead. Wrad (talk) 04:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Is there any information on the adaptations as to how they depicted Banquo's killing. The original Shakespeare prose doesn't seem to specify anything, but on some movie I was shown in English he was hacked in the back with an axe. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I really haven't seen much on that. The most focused-on murders in the play, so far as I have seen, are those of Duncan and of Macduff's son. Wrad (talk) 04:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are certainly a wide variety of ways adaptors have portrayed it; for instance, when you've adapted Macbeth to a nineties gangland setting the ambush and murder is likely to involve modern pistols and such. However the scene is a minor (if pivotal) one, and the critical editions of the play or journal articles etc. are likely to sum up the entire movie adaptation in at most a paragraph or two (often as little as a sentence). IOW, we could probably add a description of this, but that would be original research. The focus of the sources overall is on the character's role in the play (i.e. as a foil to Macbeth), various psychoanalytical readings (often really discussing Macbeth and talking about Banquo mainly because the former is reacting to the latter), and to some degree the historicity, or lack thereof, of Banquo. At best we'd be able to source some descriptions of how Banquo was changed overall for the adaptations (i.e. he might be described as the crime lord's younger cousin or some such), but even for that we'd pretty much be scraping the bottom of the barrel I think (and it'd be the movie adaptations, based on reviews and IMDB and such; productions and adaptations for the stage simply aren't covered in this aspect and level of detail in the reliable sources). --Xover (talk) 06:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This article reads well in general. I don't see a reason for it to be renamed; even if the supposed historical Banquo merits his own article, Shakespeare's Banquo remains much more prominent and therefore the primary topic. But I do see a few problems (some quite minor):

  • "the "greater honor" Duncan mentions Macbeth as possessing"—actually, it is Ross who says this, although in a message from Duncan.
    • I will leave it the way it is, then, rather than say something convoluted like "the 'greater honor' Duncan mentions Macbeth as possessing in a message delivered by Ross." Wrad (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not convinced. I don't see obvious evidence in the text why we should suppose these to have been Duncan's literal words, and the Amneus paper cited (part of which happens to be available on Google Books) also mentions that "When ... Ross brings Duncan's "thanks and payment" to Macbeth he says:". Ucucha 15:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Several of the cited sources are available online (e.g., on JSTOR), and should have links.
    • I thought the policy was not to link to websites requiring a subscription. Am I mistaken? Wrad (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Per WP:CITE: "A citation ideally includes a link or ID number to help editors locate the source". Per WP:ELREG: "A site that requires registration or a subscription should not be linked unless the website itself is the topic of the article (see Official links below) or the link is part of an inline reference (see Wikipedia:Citing sources) ... This guideline does not restrict linking to websites that are being used as sources to provide content in articles" (emphasis mine). Nikkimaria (talk) 23:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not sure whether the article represents the full range of available scholarship. Although many distinct sources are cited, Banquo has accrued a rather large amount of scholarship as a fairly prominent character in one of Shakespeare's most famous plays—"Banquo" is mentioned 1494 times in JSTOR, for example—and there may well be important ideas there that are not in the article. I looked at a few of the JSTOR articles, and they do contain things this article is missing—JSTOR 2873281, for example, stresses Banquo's observations of nature as another contrast with Macbeth. There is a balance between being too concise and going overboard with details, but I'm not yet convinced this article has handled that the right way.

Ucucha 20:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • After going over it again, I do, I think, vaguely remember reading that article. I think my instincts towards not including it were probably motivated by the kind of thing you're talking about (too many details). In general, if the things I'm reading start repeating themselves again and again, I focus on those things that repeat and include them. This way, the major points are covered comprehensively, though some repetitive sources will be left out. This article focuses on one particular line of Banquo's that is already mentioned in our article in a slightly different context. After reading it again, I can see it probably could add something to the article in a brief sentence.
    • I scoured JSTOR as I was writing this article, and I doubt that I missed much. I would caution that the fact that Banquo is mentioned 1494 times in JSTOR is not a true indication of what kind of scholarship is available about Banquo. Macbeth is a very famous play. Many things are written about it, but minor characters such as Banquo are normally only mentioned in passing. Scholars very much prefer to talk about Macbeth, Lady Macbeth, or the Three Witches. The actual number of articles talking about Banquo in a substantial way is significantly smaller, and the number of those articles talking about him in a new or unique way is smaller still. For a very brief example, see the 10th item down on the search, which only has two very passing references to Banquo and really adds nothing new to this article. As these searches typically list items with the most references first, this is an indicator of the kinds of sources the vast majority of those 1400 are. Wrad (talk) 21:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • You have undoubtedly read more of the literature than I have, and your explanation is sensible. Still, the article is fairly short, and there certainly seems room for ideas like Banquo's love of nature. Ucucha 15:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, the article you mention doesn't actually argue that Banquo loves nature; it makes the point that Banquo's mode of speech is naturalistic and conrete rather than supernatural and abstract. When he remarks to Fleance that “There's husbandry in heaven, / Their candles are all out” it has been previously argued (even assumed) that he is mirroring Macbeth's earlier plea to dark spirits to hide his deeds in darkness, and that he means the candles are (blown) out and the heavens are dark. The article mentioned argues that Banquo tends to speak of what he sees around him in fairly straightforward descriptive terms; so this quote probably should be taken to mean that there's a higher power (i.e. God) looking down on human affairs and that all the stars currently shining in the sky are a sign of this (IOW, he's describing a clear starry night sky). But it fits in fairly well where we use the quote so I'll see if I can't work it in as a counter-point to the argument that Macbeth has literally darkened the sky in the relevant section. --Xover (talk) 01:18, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [13].

Juwan Howard

Nominator(s): Finetooth (talk · contribs), TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs)

I am nominating this for featured article because this is a great article with a lot of detail. I have finally gotten a good copyedit from Finetooth after having added a lot of encyclopedic content. TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We ran into one problem as far as citing encyclopedic content when we realized that he is married, but there are no good sources regarding this. We are using questionable sources, but the fact isnot likely to be challenged and I was not sure what to do.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is also one dab issue with template defaulting to Charlotte Hornets rather than New Orleans Hornets. I am not sure how to handle this template use.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will add WP:ALT to the final image when the template is reformatted.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have just created the Juwan_Howard#Scouting_report section.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very good, thankyou. Aaroncrick TALK 02:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Nitpicks:-

Otherwise sources look good. Brianboulton (talk) 09:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I've just looked at the lead and first few paragraphs so far.

Could some of these explanations be added to the article? I think it would help.
I added some more. The paragraph seems quite meaty to me now, but let me know if you want to see even more added.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Paragraph is fine. It may need copy-editing in places. Could a sentence be added to the lead to the effect of "he became the first player to graduate on time with his class after leaving college early to play in the NBA ... , as most players did not feel the need to attend classes." Or something. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although he continued to be a productive starter, he never again performed at an All-Star level, and near the end of his contract he was traded at the NBA trade deadline twice to make salary cap room." Very long sentence. Also, the begining of the sentence reads as if the previous sentences have talked about how good he was. But if I've read it right, it has only mentioned three seasons and has not really said how good he was or how successful. And what is a "productive" starter?
Thank you. I split the sentence in half to make two shorter sentences. I think the $100 million contract is sufficient evidence of his success. A productive starter is one who scores points or otherwise contributes to the team. Not sure what else you are looking for here.Finetooth (talk) 02:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I'm not clear. I think it would be better to say how he was productive, i.e. how did he contribute. Maybe the lead isn't the place for it, but as I said below, I don't think the lead gives a clear picture of how good he is/was. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sarastrol, I don't mean to be rude. The current WP:LEAD has the following text "After one season as an All-Rookie player and a second as an All-NBA performer. . .During his first 5 seasons in the NBA, he averaged 19.3 points per game. . ." Any basketball fan knows very well how good he was. Those two phrases may not mean much to you, but anyone who follows basketball understands very clearly how good he was. Anything more would be an overstatement or overemphasis. The lead properly balances his peak and his present state pretty well, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, can I just establish that this is not written with the general reader in mind but only for basketball fans? If so, I do not feel that I can support it (which I would like to, to be honest, as it seems comprehensive). IMO, FAs should be written with the general reader in mind, and it seems that most of them are. And "any basketball fan" may understand this, but is that enough for FA? Obviously, the entire rules and structure of the sport don't need explaning in depth, but there are points where further brief explanations would make it more accessible for everyone. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, it might help to add a comparison stat or two if you have them handy. I'm thinking maybe after "19.3 points a game" something like "X points is the NBA average" would help. Or after "All-Rookie player", maybe something like "Only X rookies out of Y (Z percent) make the All-Star team each season." This would put Howard's accomplishments into a quantitative perspective that any reader would understand without knowing anything about the NBA. Comparisons like this should go into the relevant places in the main text and then could be included in the lead. Finetooth (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2010, he is entering his 17th season in the NBA, including 5 for playoff teams": This suggest he played five separate seasons for a different type of team called a playoff team. I assume it means that in five seasons, his teams reached the playoffs?
You are right, and your construction is more clear. I adopted it. Finetooth (talk) 02:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Howard had a successful career at Chicago Vocational Career Academy where he became a 1991 Parade and McDonald's All American and a member of the National Honor Society". Successful how? What did he do there? And while the last items are linked, they make the sentence very bumpy. Could a few words be added to say what they are to make the sentence flow a bit?
Yes. I revised to "Howard attended Chicago Vocational Career Academy, where he was named a 1991 All-American basketball player by Parade magazine and won McDonald's All American honors in a national tournament for boys and girls. He was also chosen for the National Honor Society, which recognizes achievements in scholarship, leadership, service, and character." Finetooth (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By his sophomore year, he was already expected to be a 1991 blue chip recruit." Seems a bit pointless. If it is necessary to talk about being a "blue chip recruit" (which seems to be an unnecessary term to introduce here), he either was or he wasn't. Why say what he was expected to be? May be better to say that he showed potential, or was expected to be successful, or high hopes were expressed?
    • It is not the case that either he was or he wasn't. What this is saying is that over two years in advance of his senior season recruiting, expectations were high that he would be one of the top recruits at that point two years into the future. The term, which is linked, is a common term in American sports. If you are foreign, it may be lost on you, but suffice it to say it is not random jargon because it has a substantial linked article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I revised to include a clarifying phrase: "By his sophomore year, he was already expected to be a 1991 blue chip recruit, highly prized by college basketball coaches." Does this make the claim more clear? Finetooth (talk) 18:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"He was the only sophomore named by the league coaches to the 20-man, 1988–89 All-Chicago Public School League squad as a second-team member." Long and a bit clumsy. What is this squad?

OK. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...attended the Nike Academic Betterment and Career Development (ABCD) camp, which was held annually in Princeton, New Jersey, during the late 1980s,[9] where he was matched against the 7-foot-4-inch (2.24 m) Shawn Bradley." This makes for a very long sentence. Could be tightened up, e.g. "... during the late 1980s [what years?] attended the annual Nike Academic Betterment and Career Development (ABCD) camp in Princeton, New Jersey. While there, he was matched against the 7-foot-4-inch (2.24 m) Shawn Bradley."
I split the sentence in two but retained the existing explanation for the dates as well as Howard's height, which is important because he was considerably shorter than Bradley. Finetooth (talk) 04:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could this be made explicit? It is not immediately obvious that this is why the info is there. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added "despite having his shots blocked several times by the much taller Bradley" to the subsequent sentence (which also contains the first of the problematic uses of "big men". I hope this makes more clear that Howard excelled even against players with a height advantage. Finetooth (talk) 17:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that clears it up nicely and "big men" sits a little better now it is defined. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There he established himself as one of the best junior big men in the country despite having his shots blocked several times by Bradley." This reads like having shots blocked by Bradley meant he could not be one of the best players in the country . And "best junior big men" sounds jargony and clumsy.
Not sure what would be better. He was a junior in high school, and he was big. Size is very important in basketball. Finetooth (talk) 04:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My main problem with this is the part about "despite having his shots blocked..." I'm not sure "big man" belongs in an encyclopedia, and if it is a common term, maybe it could be linked in some way. Personally I think "tall players" or even "big players" sounds less informal. However, I'm not too bothered if it is that common. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Listen to an NBA or college basketball broadcast. "Big man" is a common term. See below.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Sarastro1. I changed the sentence to read: "At this camp, Howard established himself as one of the best junior-year big men (tall basketball players) in the country despite having his shots blocked several times by the much taller Bradley." I'm hoping that this makes "junior" more clear, makes the importance of the height difference more explicit, and (knock on wood) makes "big man" more meaningful. It is an odd specialized term that might literally be taken to mean a fat guy or hulking brute uninvolved in sports. :-) Finetooth (talk) 17:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy enough with this now. If I was been nit-picky, I might still say that he could not be one of the best if his shots were blocked (i.e. as if that by itself would stop him). And as I said, "big man" sits a bit better now. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Involved in controversy for receiving a second pair of sneakers, he was sent home early on the last day of the six-day camp." What??? This needs expanding and explaining.
Could we resolve this one by deleting all mention of the sneakers on grounds that it's even less than a hiccup, and the article is already quite long? Finetooth (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. Although it sounded quite interesting! :) And Tony, with the greatest respect, I'm not sure the words "controversy for receiving a second pair of sneakers" is "pretty clear". I doubt most people realise it is illegal to own two pairs of shoes of any type. :) But seriously, if it is staying in it should be made clear why it is controversial. All it needs is "a second pair of shoes was not permitted" (which sounds odd to me, but I'm not a basketballer. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave this one for Tony to decide. I'm the expert on comma splices; he's the expert on basketball. I don't actually know who gave Howard the sneakers or why it would upset anyone." Finetooth (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think sneakergate has more detail than necessary, but the whole story is in the article now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also participated in the Bill Cronauer (B/C) camp in Rensselaer, Indiana, which was attended by more than 100 college coaches and where he became ranked as one of the top 10 underclassmen in the country." Long sentence. What is an underclassman? Ranked by who? What is the significance of this?
  • "Howard attended other camps that summer and had a goal of surpassing Deon Thomas as the best big man in the state." What camps? Who is Deon Thomas (I know it's linked, but a few words would suffice to say why this is important)? Big man again.
    • Big man is common basketball lingo. It is common for tall players to play on the front line together and neither officially being the center. Howard eventually moved from center to power forward, both of which are big man positions. Are you averse to the article retaining this common term. It is actually unnatural to me to replace big man with something like front line player.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See above. If big man is a common term, I'll let it go but would prefer it not to be there as it sounds informal. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will my addition of "big men (tall basketball players)" on the first use suffice? Finetooth (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Covers it nicely, I struck the comment. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, I am a sports fan and quite familiar with many sports articles. However, I have only a passing knowledge of basketball and found it hard to follow the beginning of this article (although the rest looks clearer at a quick glance). Most FAs (and GAs for that matter) that I have seen do not use too much jargon so that the general reader can follow them. As a fan, what is not confusing to you may not be understood by others. It only needs the addition of a few words and phrases here and there. --Sarastro1 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The lead does not really establish how or why he was good, but mentions lots about his decline. More on the peak would be good. There is a lot of linking which is distracting, and the article seems to use a lot of jargon which makes it hard to follow for a non-expert who is not prepared to follow every link. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of how good he was, I am wavering about adding that he averaged 7.9 rebounds a season for his first five years or about 7.5 for his first 10 seasons. I just don't see it as a WP:LEAD-worthy fact. I grew up reading the sports page and the jargon seems natural to me. Aside from the term "big man", I am not sure what you mean. I am always willing to listen to suggestions on delinking because I am a heavy linker. I don't know that expanding this article by teaching basketball terms to the reader would be the proper thing to do, but if you have specific problems, I can attempt to address them.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [16].

Saw VI

Nominator(s): Mike Allen 21:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I've have been working on this article for over six months. It passed GA in March and had a peer review in July-August. Most concerns in the peer review were, lack of images (I finally got a free image of the director), and problems with prose. I had an independent copyeditor go through the article. Another concern was lack of offline sources. I managed to track down the issue of Fangoria that featured the film, but wasn't successful in finding anything else offline--and probably won't anytime soon. This is also my first FA and I will probably not have help fulfilling reviewers' concerns. Mike Allen 21:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review One appropriate FU, two retouched self-made, OK, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Is the "sequel" section still important? I imagine it was just the base of the current Saw 3D article and the information could be summed up in one or two sentences in reception. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 00:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi. Actually I just wrote that section yesterday (and used some refs from the Saw 3D article). I've read where the Film Project may remove the "Proceeded by" and "Followed by" parameters in the film infobox. I may have misunderstood though. Still, I believe anything in the infobox should be mentioned in the prose. With that said, I don't disagree with moving it into the reception section. Mike Allen 01:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I want to ensure that the film article is as comprehensive as possible, so I ask FAC reviewers who have access to subscription-only databases like JSTOR to check for coverage of Saw VI and provide them here. Existing references look good, but not all content will be available online. Erik (talk | contribs) 16:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I haven't seen this one yet, so I'm refraining from really reading the article in-depth. But, at a glance I do have a couple of questions.
  1. Shouldn't the sequel info be at Saw (franchise), and not on this article? Typically, once you get into multiple films, all sequel info is intially mentioned on the original's article and then subsequenly on a film series/franchise page. Technically, any film after numero uno is always a sequel to that film, and not a sequel to the sequel - even when it continues a storyline started in a sequel.
  2. Can we legitimately say this article is comprehensive if we haven't used anything from the audio tracks on the DVDs? Maybe I missed them, but I couldn't find anything in the sources listing their use and I find it hard to imagine that with 2 full tracks that neither covers anything new that could be included in this article.
  3. Image placement. You're infobox image is your first, so the next one should be on the left side, the quotebox on the right, and the last image on the left (where it is currently). As the MOS for images says to cascade the sides for those types of things.

Just a couple of things. I don't want to ruin the film for myself by reading details. :( Sorry.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. That makes sense. I just added the section before I nominated the article, like I said above, I thought everything listed in the infobox should be included in prose, somewhere.
2. I rented the DVD once it was released in January hoping to be able to add something useful to the article... but was disappointed. I listened to both commentaries and remember mostly trivia. The only useful thing that came out of them is on the Saw 3D article (and it was republished on a horror news site). It was Marcus saying that Tandera Howard would be in Saw VII. I'll rent it again and refresh my memory.
3. Fixed. Also someone has added the soundtrack poster (again) ... is that really needed? Mike Allen 21:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Soundtrack image would fail WP:FUC and WP:NONFREE in a heartbeat. Probably don't need the infobox itself (which is what is drawing the need to fill the "image" parameter for some people), as the soundtrack has its own article. Plus, you're really only supposed to have 1 infobox in an article.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's how I feel about the non-free poster too. I brought the album infobox up on WT:FILM last month. Mike Allen 23:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as Erik pointed out at WP:FILM, the image doesn't stand the test of time as far as fair use rationales go. You'd have to have critical commentary on it for justification, which as far as I know that article doesn't have. That said, I'm personally against soundtrack infoboxes. I was under the understanding that we're only to have one box per article (not a FILM guideline, but a Wiki guideline), but maybe I'm wrong. Again, in the least it's a personal preference and if I cannot find anything stating that it shouldn't be there then there isn't a reason for you to remove it. :D  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Should Saw VI: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack be bolded? Mike Allen 01:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Based on WP:MOSBOLD, I could not find anything (and I may have easily missed it) that says you bold a title later in the article. All I could find is "in the lead", and that isn't in the lead. So, I'd say "no", unless someone else sees where that page says that you should.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: The plot is currently at 725 words, and that's because the actors are included next to their character names. If I made a cast list, it would bring the word count down to 697. So, should that be done? Mike Allen 23:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • No need. 725 words is not overly detailed. The series does have a semi-complicated backstory with its characters. I think the section looks longer than it actually is. I mean, I'd read it and cut any wordiness that I saw out of it, but as I said before it's the only one I haven't watched yet.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • sign on . hyphen
  • story lines . storylines. more common
  • I don't like the emdashes in between the heavy numbering and symbols. brackets perhaps
  • It grossed $14,118,444—$4,650 per theater its opening weekend - not gramatical
  • Box office is just a proseform of a list of numbers. Covered in excruciating detail.
  • No. 6 inconsistency.
  • weighted average score. perhaps hyphen.
  • The best entry in the series since Saw II". move full stop inside.
  • One "Blue"-ray
  • "It's a fitting marriage, as hard rock and heavy metal are the sonic suitors to horror and torture porn films and video games". move inside

86.141.247.236 (talk) 03:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About the box office, what else am I suppose to present? I thought the box office section is supposed to show how it did at the box office (that involves numerical figures). At least I did include the international box office performance, what else would you like to see. I don't know what you mean about the "Blue"-ray. I would appreciate, instead of listing a bullet point presentation, that you would please list your comments like the rest of FAC reviewers. Thanks. Mike Allen 04:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: I've used NewsBank and got a few results from that. I've added one newspaper to the article. Many reviewers talk about (online and newspapers) how the film "satires" the US health care situation of 2009 and some even go as far as to bring Michael Moore's name up. [17]. I don't want to add any undo weight, but when multiple reviewers mention the heath care plot, do you think it should be discussed in the reception section. If so, how would it be the best to add it? Mike Allen 03:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Comment—The Critical response section containing the film critic reviews appears a bit "light" on content. It seems it could use a bit of an expansion. As a quick example, have you looked through a site such as the Movie Review Query Engine for additional viewpoints? For this particular film, it lists 73 critical reviews, which of course also appear on other film critic review sites like Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. DeWaine (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're right it does list a lot of reviews... but I'm not sure if many of those sites are considered reliable critics to use on Wikipedia? Also, I disagree with two of your edits. The first one you added this to the lead, "Following its cinematic release, the film failed to receive any award nominations from mainstream motion picture organizations for its production merits or lead acting." Is this really needed? I'm not sure if any "mainstream" motion pictures organization would nominate a Saw film for anything, given its nature. The other edit where you delink the US$ sign from the infobox. The film is also considered a Canadian film (apparently), and since US$ and CA$ are too different things, I thought it would be best to clarify that. Mike Allen 01:25, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Response—Well, to start off, I believe the lead sentence addition is needed. A film like Saw would sometimes garner an award for special effects or music. (I admit it; I might have overdone it by adding lead acting in that sentence). But never the less, films like that do receive nominations for "production merits". The dollar sign, is a questionable edit. I just didn't think it was necessary to include that tidbit of information. Finally, as far as the reviews are concerned; I do believe a significant number of those reviews are reliable. They contain viewpoints from notable newspapers such as the Los Angeles Times, the Village Voice, the Boston Globe, the Austin Chronicle, Orlando Sentinel etc. Just because it's not Roger Ebert, doesn't make it unreliable. The point I'm trying to make is, a page under consideration for Featured Article status should contain thorough-filled content in it's main sections. The amount of critical content is a bit low. If you remove the image, it becomes even more slim. I just feel you should add more reviews. DeWaine (talk) 02:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will add more reviews from the major publishers. I also saw a few via NewsBank. I wouldn't expect a big critical analysis of a Saw film though and one reason I think I didn't add more reviews is it was just the same thing, just a different reviewer. And Robert Ebert hasn't reviewed a Saw film since the first... Also I would like others to weigh in on the dollar sign linkage and the addition to the lead--before the FAC gets closed due to no consensus. Mike Allen 02:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional response—Ok, fair enough. By the way, I was aware of that Roger Ebert issue. That's one review that would be considered a "given". If he reviewed the film and you didn't insert it, I would have made another objection. DeWaine (talk) 02:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added more reviews (though I'm still looking through newspapers), would you "Agree" or "Oppose" to be a featured article? Mike Allen 00:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Secondary response—I'm leaning towards a support for FAC status. I'm satisfied with the additional inclusions of critical critique. It certainly looks more built up. Just so you understand, I wanted to clarify something with that. I understand your point by mentioning you didn't want to add the same types of reviews over and over again. But for the reader, its important to do just that. The reason is, every critic has a different reason for their individual negativity. One might think the plot was too predictable, another might have thought the dialogue was absurd, or another might have felt the film had cinematography and editing which was of low quality. Its important for a reader to understand why each critic gave a negative review.

But on another front, in the Production section, is there any more supplemental content to add? The material is segregated in three short paragraphs. I noticed through the References section, much of the content is sourced using only internet sites. And those would include Bloody Disgusting, The Collective and Crave Online Media. Have you consulted any novels? I don't see a single printed book with a corresponding ISBN number for your sourcing. DeWaine (talk) 04:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is a concern (see the top of this page) with User:Erik. The only "book" source that I know features Saw is Fangoria, and it's already in the article. Google Books doesn't show anything. I live in a small town (under 500 people) so my library is not a good resource. I just don't think there is in-dept coverage of Saw VI in offline sources. Do you have access to subscription-only databases? Mike Allen 05:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—Sorry there. Indeed it would appear I missed that previous response. I didn't know that issue was already addressed. When I get back in 10-12 hours, I'll see what I can dig up. If I can't find anything, then that will have to suffice. I suppose. DeWaine (talk) 12:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Other comment—Well, after searching for additional print sources, I've come to the conclusion that you were indeed correct about it's prospects. I don't have any access to any subscription-only databases, and my search for novels in connection with the film was fruitless. I'm not sure if it would be too wide or relevant of a topic to simply reference the Saw film series in general and not just this film in particular for more production details. If your able to do so on that front, I don't see how it could hurt the article.
On a separate note, I would like to just quickly touch upon other content in the article. First, in the See also section, is it really necessary to include the link for 2009 in film? I see virtually no relevance at all between that link and the Saw article. In fact, the only connection I see would be that the film was produced and released in 2009. Thats about it. Nothing else. I don't think thats a good enough reason to include it. Its simply way too broad of topic to include in the article. Wouldn't a more relevant link be to include the Saw (franchise) instead? I can't think of a more applicable topic to insert. Now I understand the link already appears in the lead section; but its distance from the See also section in the article warrants a duplicate insertion. Also, if a reader wants to research more into the film series, he should not have to search for the link in the article. Its easiest located in that section. Lastly, for the same reason just mentioned, I believe you should also re-insert the Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic and Box Office Mojo links in the External links section. If a reader wants a more detailed layout of the box office performance, or simply wants to read into more critical reviews, the easiest place to find it would be the External links section, instead of searching for the link to those websites somewhere in the article. DeWaine (talk) 00:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's how current film FA's do it now. See Fight Club (film). Instead of piping 2009 in film to 2009 which results in an Eggy link, editors have been placing it in a See also section. I will include the Saw franchise link and re-insert the RT, MC and BOM links. Mike Allen 00:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Comments—Ok, fine. Just three quick comments though. First, in the Home media section, you might want to add that the film is currently available in Video on Demand format too. You can reference that on say, Amazon.com. It is a home media format just like DVD and Blu-ray. Next, I just wanted to justify that lead sentence which you thought had no merit. These type of films, and this one in particular could have been nominated for any of the following awards:

  • Best Art Direction
  • Best Cinematography
  • Best Costume Design
  • Best Film Editing
  • Best Makeup
  • Best Original Score
  • Best Original Song
  • Best Sound Editing
  • Best Sound Mixing
  • Best Visual Effects
  • Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay)

The inclusion of the phrase lead acting was just to round out the sentence. But I don't believe that sentence is unwarranted. Finally, I would just like to make a quick reference to that dollar sign issue. You can link the sign if you'd like, but I would suggest adding perhaps a citation as to why it's linked. Just linking it in the fashion you did it as, serves no purpose. It would be the same as linking the phrase United States or the term English. If you would like to reference a correlation between Canadian and United States dollars, it would be best to indicate that exact point. DeWaine (talk) 00:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we're not going to link, then it may be better to leave the US in front of the dollar sign (US$)? This is to show readers that the money is in US dollars and not Canadian. Mike Allen 20:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—Ok. DeWaine (talk) 00:07, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment looks pretty good, but in teh soundtrack section: I would prefer to have the list auto-hidden, and instead have a sentence on the composition of the score (i.e. 3 parts + a bonus, etc). Nergaal (talk) 13:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I auto hid the tracks. I added this sentence "The soundtrack includes 18 tracks separated by 3 parts, each with six songs and includes 3 bonus tracks". I hope that makes sense (I know nothing about soundtracks)? If so, would you "Agree" or "Oppose"? Mike Allen 00:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good, but could you add a bit more about the release? It seems a bit short for a FA, and it only talks about English-speaking countries + Spain. Nergaal (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What countries would you like added? English speaking countries were added, because, well this is the English Wikipedia and Spain was included because of the controversy. Mike Allen 02:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [18].

Sacramento River

Nominator(s): Shannontalk contribs 23:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a large river, and it's in California… that generally means that it is relied on for water supply by millions of people. The Sacramento is California's biggest and most heavily used river; its waters rise in the Klamath, Sierra and Coast Ranges as scores of snowfed tributaries, but by the time it reaches the sea after its tortuous course, it's little more than a trickle for parts of the year. I have been working on this page for a few weeks (mostly in a sandbox) and feel it is ready to be a featured article (as I live in California, it feels fitting to pay tribute to this great river whose water likely comes out of my tap.) Shannontalk contribs 23:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed... Shannontalk contribs 04:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Ref 4 is a note consisting entirely of unsourced information
  • Ref 11: the map lacks a source
  • Ref 14: as per ref 4 above.
  • Ref 21: Is this a scholarly source? It doesn't read particularly like one, although it does cite authorities
  • Ref 38 is to "Harton and McCloud". Is this the same as "Harton, Ron (2010" listed with the books? Why, incidentally, have these books been listed but not others cited in the article?
  • Likewise, ref 40: Royce and Wells", books "Royce, Ronald (2002)"
  • Ref 58: The Sacramento Press is a community news site. How does it qualify as a reliable source?
  • Ref 62: Inadequate information given. This is from "Vol. 25 No. 2" of a journal. Which journal, and what date?
  • Ref 77 lacks publisher information
  • Ref 82: Not necessary to list all 25+ contributors. "S.T. Lindley et al" will do
  • Ref 84: What makes http://yubanet.com/regional/Poor-Ocean-and-River-Conditions-Spurred-Sacramento-Salmon-Collapse.php a reliable source?
  • Ref 85: San Francisco Chronicle appears to be the publisher of SFgate
  • Ref 86: The link appears to be broken
  • Refs 92 and 94: consistency required in adding retrieval dates

Otherwise, refs look OK Brianboulton (talk) 13:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking… several books are listed below the references because they’re cited several times in the article. I could move all the books to the bottom, but that’d take a while. Shannontalk contribs 20:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SFGate => San Francisco Chronicle fixed. Shannontalk contribs 20:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe all the links are okay… Ref 86 works fine for me… are you sure?Shannontalk contribs 20:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 11 has a source, Sacramento River Watershed Program; Ref 14 (15?) is attributed to CEC, and Ref 4 is simply a note, could add USGS-NWIS urls to it if needed Shannontalk contribs 21:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe references are mostly fixed; also added some to supplement the "unreliable" ones.

Comments

  • "The Sacramento, when combined with the Pit, is also one of the longest rivers in the United States entirely within one state – after Alaska's Kuskokwim and Texas' Trinity."

Doesn't the Pit reach into Oregon? The page says so in several places.

Nope, the Pit doesn't, I'll correct the article if there is. Shannontalk contribs 03:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"The Sierra Nevada generally decreases in height..." I'm not sure, but isn't the term usually pluralized? The Sierra Nevadas? The Sierras? Similar to the Cascades, Rockies, Appalachians, etc. The terms occur in a number of places on the page, in singular form.

A bit of research makes me doubt whether this is even a minor issue. Looks like the singular form is alright in this case. At least, I don't know enough to say one way or the other, so I retract the point.
  • "two-thirds to three-quarters of northern California's precipitation though it has only one-third to one-quarter of the land. The San Joaquin River watershed occupies two-thirds to three quarters of northern California's land, but only collects one-third to one-quarter of the precipitation."

Shouldn't the San Joaquin River's watershed be said to occupy southern California, not northern?

Actually the San Joaquin drains central California. See the map on List of rivers of California. The San Joaquin Valley isn't close to the southern part... Shannontalk contribs 04:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the Great Depression in the 1930s, the first plans for statewide water engineering projects emerged backed by first the Californian, then the United States government."

I'm not sure about this either, but isn't the norm to refer to state governments without using adjective name form? That is, the California government, the Washington government, the Florida government, etc, rather than Californian, Washingtonian, Floridian?

  • "It is surmised that between four and five years ago, the Sacramento and Snake-Columbia River systems were somehow connected by a series of now-dry wetlands and river channels."

Is there a word missing here? between four and five years ago?

  • "There were once 9 species of amphibians that used the Sacramento River, but their population is now declining drastically due to the loss of their habitat."

Are there still 9 species? Saying "there were once 9 species" implies there are fewer now, but "their population is now declining" suggests there are still 9 species, but fewer individuals.

  • "The riparian areas along the Sacramento once totaled more than 500,000 acres (2,000 km2); today, only about 10,000 acres (40 km2) remains, much of it consisting of restored stretches, there is also a significant amount of artificial wetland in the watershed"

A bit of a run-on sentence, no?

  • "Second only to the Columbia River on the west coast of the United States, the Sacramento and its tributaries once supported a huge run of Chinook salmon in the fall and spring."

I assume "second only" means in terms of the size of Chinook salmon runs, but perhaps the sentence could be made clearer.

A nitpicky comment: Some of the em dashes have spaces on either side and some do not. Perhaps they should all follow the same style? I tend to not use spaces around em dashes. If spaces are used they should be non-breaking.

Otherwise, the page looks good to me, at least in terms of "is well-written", "is comprehensive", "complies with Wikipedia's Manual of Style (MoS)", "has a satisfactory lead", and "is of appropriate length". The content is factually accurate and neutral. Pfly (talk) 19:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Parts of this seem well-done, but I also see big problems. Here are three:

  • The numbers in the geology section are way off. "While the Coast Ranges are young by geologic standards, only a few million years old, the Klamath Mountains were already forming some 7.5 million years ago." - The Klamaths are much, much older than that, comprised of terranes that merged with North America 150 to 130 million years ago, according to Ellen Morris Bishop in In Search of Ancient Oregon. Also doubtful is the claim that the Coast Ranges are "only a few million years old". Ditto the age of the Sierra Nevada, which the article claims is "a few million years". Where are these numbers coming from? The cited sources don't seem to support the claims.
  • Most FA river articles include a "Discharge" subsection in the "Course" section. Should this article have one?
Added a discharge section, it's probably kind of c*$#py, any suggestions? Shannontalk contribs 03:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most FA river articles include something about climate (precipitation, temperature ranges, or any climatic factor that affects stream flows). How does weather affect the Sacramento River? Finetooth (talk) 03:15, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I was asked to look at the article and would like to see the responses to Finetooth's questions before making many of my own.

Comment the refs that are PDF should have the "|format=PDF" parameter. Would like to see other comments addressed too. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [19].

Bob Barr presidential campaign, 2008

Nominator(s): William S. Saturn (talk) --JayJasper (talk) 18:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated this article earlier in the year and it failed due to a wide range of issues. These issues were addressed and it then underwent a Peer Review. I nominated the article again in June, but withdrew due to a lack of feedback. I am now co-nominating with JayJasper, who frequently contributed during the article's development.William S. Saturn (talk) 20:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I co-nominate this article with William S. Saturn. Per his above remarks, the issues that hindered the earlier nom. have been addressed. The article is extensively and credibly sourced, vastly informative, and written in a readable and encyclopedic style.--JayJasper (talk) 18:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the above link.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review—all images are public domain or Creative Commons licensed. Imzadi 1979 → 21:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1c/2c review: Please fix fn22 urgently. I have strong misgivings about ^ Bovard, James (1998-03). "The Fires of Waco Are Still Burning". Future of Freedom Foundation. Retrieved 2010-05-07.'s reliability for facts, it is additionally miscited as it comes from a source purporting to be a daily news presentation (cite as a newspaper, Freedom Daily with publisher listed). fn15 (Vejnoska) fails to indicate the publisher / newspaper. Footnotes 7 & 8 support material which implies analysis (significance of such a vote, it is connected to his later running as a libertarian) without the cited material being able to substantiate analysis. fn12 lacks a location (there is more than one Reason magazine in the world), fn20 includes a publisher whereas other journals don't, and for no good reason (style consistency). fn22 is deceptively and misleadingly cited as it is a website for which an individual takes editorial responsibility; and as a result may well be bad sourcing, might not be though. fn21 fails to load. fn53 is miscited, fn80 is published by an extremely dubious source (single editor, non commercial, partisan line). fn82 includes a publisher for no good reason (it is a newspaper with a singular name). Fifelfoo (talk) 08:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Please see Future of Freedom Foundation and James Bovard as well as Ballot Access News and Richard Winger. These are reputable publications.
  2. Footnotes 7 & 8 show that Barr voted in a such a way. There is nothing implied in the text it covers.
  3. Footnote 22 is hosted by George Washington University.
  4. The remaining reference issues have been fixed. Thank you for your input.--William S. Saturn (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Continued comment: Hosting is not publication, but that footnote seems to have disappeared. Re 7&8, if it is trivium why is it present, if it is present as fact in relation to analysis, where is the analysis (and its own citation). They are facts which contribute to the argument "criticized by Libertarians who opposed his efforts in Congress" (lede), but no mention of criticism occurs in the "background" section. Winger's publication is not subject to commercial or peer review and he is a partisan, take it to RS for an opinion (or note previous RS opinion) or remove it. FFF is a partisan political body whose newspaper is not subject to commercial review, take it to RS or remove it. Additionally FFF is still miscited, it comes from their newspaper, not an organisational press release. Reason magazine is still miscited as there are multiple Reasons around the world. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added the place of publication for Reason Magazine, and it's already linked. The background section is a quick summary of Barr's political past, the affect of his votes on his campaign can be found and sourced elsewhere in the article. In regards to FFF and Ballot Access News, please see the last paragraph in WP:SPS.--William S. Saturn (talk) 23:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer: see WP:BLP#Reliable sources." ? you may wish to remove those two and locate alternate sources then. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an article about a living person. This is an article about a political campaign. Expert sources such as these are permitted.--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Why is it important that he is wearing Prada glasses in the image?
For clarification, this is in a caption. Prada glasses are a status symbol that may be hard to read in the image itself.
  • "Barr attempted to tap into Ron Paul's resources and supporters to raise funds, and used the same company that Paul used, Terra Eclipse, to design his campaign website..." - These seem like a poor example of tapping into Paul's resources.
Note the word "and". --William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "winning the largest percentage of votes for his party since Harry Browne in 2000" - could this be reworded to indicate that he merely beat Michael Badnarik?
Done.--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Jim Bovard is notable, and the lawsuit gives insight into the former campaign's financial status.--William S. Saturn (talk) 03:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I am currently working on this.--William S. Saturn (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's increased by a sentence in 12 days. This rate of fixing on the run isn't fast enough YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns.

  • I'm starting a prose and MOS review, and it generally seems to work out fine if I just make the edits, but feel free to revert any time. The usual plan is to keep going and support after concerns (if any) are addressed, but if there's too much, I'll stop ... looks good so far, though.
  • Some folks really like to repeat the article name in the first sentence, but I just want to point out that this would be slightly tighter and say the same thing, use it if you like: "Bob Barr, former Republican Congressman of Georgia, began campaigning for the Libertarian Party's presidential nomination on May 12, 2008, after months of grassroots draft efforts." - Dank (push to talk) 02:46, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you want to keep the link you're using for fiscal constraint, the phrase "fiscal restraint" is much more common. A quick Google search suggests that "fiscal constraint" is a neologism in related senses. - Dank (push to talk) 02:53, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although Barr campaigned throughout the nation, many of the campaign's activities took place in court, notably ...": it's the "although" that doesn't work for me here, because there's no contradiction in or tension between the two elements. Take your pick on how to fix it; breaking this into two sentences would work for me. - Dank (push to talk) 03:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sort of a WP:WORDS issue: do you have a source that supports "the media acknowledging a movement on Facebook encouraging the former Congressman to begin a campaign"? All I'm seeing is "Activists have started a Facebook campaign" in the Washington Times; "movement" would be the wrong word, and the usually plural "media" wouldn't be the best choice unless you have other refs. - Dank (push to talk) 03:20, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:MOS, see if you can reword to lose a few of the many links inside quotes, or move the links outside the quote marks. - Dank (push to talk) 03:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please check your quotations to make sure that if there's no period inside the quote marks in the original, you don't put the period inside the quote marks here. Although this practice largely contradicts American style guides, I understand that it's more common elsewhere, and Chicago allows it (or did allow it ... just got the 16th edition, haven't gotten that far!) in cases where you're trying to be very faithful to the original ... as we are here. See WP:LQ. In the first quotation in the first section that had a period, you put the period inside the quote marks where the original had a comma. I've fixed it. - Dank (push to talk) 03:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Within two days, the committee reported that $25,000 had been contributed." That's damning him with faint fundraising, although if that's your goal, that's fine; maybe a little "clever" though. - Dank (push to talk) 03:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure: WP:% says to use "percent" rather than "%" except in "scientific or technical articles, in complex listings, and in articles where many percentages are reported." My position is that "%" is right here, since you've got a lot of percentages, and I left it alone. - Dank (push to talk) 03:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Always give the source of polling data. In this case, the source was Barr's exploratory committee ... it makes a difference. - Dank (push to talk) 04:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "chronicling the Libertarian Party and the potential candidate's run": "chronicling" doesn't mean "discussing", it means "giving the history of" ... except he wasn't running yet, so there wasn't any history of the run itself. I would have changed it but I'm not sure whether you were talking about chronicling his efforts up to that point, or discussing his future candidacy. - Dank (push to talk) 04:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Without commenting on George Will's writing style, I'll say that using words that 99% of the readers will have to look up isn't the writing style we're looking for here, unless the rare word has traction as a technically accurate word. "Fitting punishment" (no quote marks) would be so much better than "condign punishment" ... and there's a link inside quote marks again. - Dank (push to talk) 04:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, on the upside, it's in better shape now, check the edit summaries for more information on changes I'm suggesting. On the downside ... that took a while for just the lead section and the next 3 paragraphs. I think this one is maybe going to need more copyediting than I have time to give it. If you can find a wordsmith, please do, I'll check back later. - Dank (push to talk) 04:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:49, 22 September 2010 [20].

Illinois (album)

Nominator(s): —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC), Jujutacular[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it met all of the requirements for GA status and was then further amended based on those recommendations and well as the suggestions at its first FA nomination and its peer-review; I have also asked for feedback from relevant WikiProjects. The article at present is stable and no changes that are suggested here should be a serious impediment to FA status. User:Jujutacular and to a lesser extent myself (User:Koavf) have been the primary contributors. I am willing to amend the article based on comments here and I have posted to Jujutacular's talk to inform him of this FA nomination. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: Sources looked OK at the last FAC, subject to a minor issue re retrieval dates. The same issue requires that for consistency, retrieval dates are added to 5, 17 and 29. Otherwise no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 15:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It seems lacking for a featured article.
    • Explanation of any of the song titles - why are they all so long?
    • Most importantly is discussion of each of the individual songs. You mention some of the themes in the songs, but you don't mention anything musically. After all, it is a music album. The first track has wild time signatures, the title track is in a very rare 5/4, another is in 11/4.
    • The article is one-sided by only mentioning the good reviews. Where are the bad reviews?

Hurricanehink (talk) 03:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article just seems bland for such an iconic album (and it really is, it's won so many awards). I really feel it's not comprehensive enough. Hurricanehink (talk) 05:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:47, 21 September 2010 [21].

Petitcodiac River

Nominator(s): EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Petitcodiac River is located in south-east New Brunswick, Canada, and was once home to one of the largest tidal bores in the world (from one to two metres high). The area around it was inhabited solely by the Mi'kmaq people before 1698, when Acadians from Pont Royal, Nova Scotia arrived to claim it. The river also went through the Great Upheaval, various industrial booms, and is currently the subject of a controversy regarding the construction of a causeway in 1968 (which is currently in the midst of being removed). I've nominated this article after an extensive revamp, and now believe it to be fit for an FAC. Thank you in advance for your time to review this. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments This was an interesting read for someone who has only visited the area. I take some issue with the history, which whitewashes the Acadian role leading up to the expulsion. The Acadians were asked to take a variety of oaths after the fall of Port Royal in 1710; a number of them took oaths of neutrality (essentially pledging non-participation in French-English conflict) in the years afterward. Others continued to resist British rule (or were perceived to be doing so) after Utrecht; see in particular Jean-Louis Le Loutre. Some individuals known to have sworn oaths of neutrality were in the garrison at the fall of Beausejour. These facts contributed to the British decision to order the expulsion. (None of this, of course, minimizes or excuses the brutality of what the British did; it does point out that the decision was not as arbitrary or capricious as presented here.) I know this is an article about a river, not history; please find a way to include a little more balance in this section. Magic♪piano 17:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for the comments. I will tend to the neutrality issue with the Acadian history section, but I want you to know that I was just trying my best to stick by the information presented in my sources. I'm also not very knowledgeable with our early modern history, so most of this was new (albeit fascinating) for me. I'll gladly research a little more to give better insight on the events and reasons for which the deportation was initiated. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've completed a bit of research, but other than what I've rewritten to form the current version of the section, nothing extremely significant seems to have come from the Acadian side. Searching and adding anything else would give undue weight (primarily since my sources do not indicate any role other than Le Loutre's), something which is nonsensical in, as you noted, an article about a river. Besides, it only serves as background context for the more relevant exportation.
    Another note: the Acadians were deported because of the reluctance by some to sign the 1755 oath, which was ultimately accepted. Charles Lawrence was the one to order the deportation under this basis, and it was not based on anything other than that reluctance (all sourced). I think it would be just to say that the decision was somewhat arbitrary. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:46, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think your changes in this are fine. My knowledge of the details is somewhat imperfect, but I knew there was nuance missing that is now more visible. Magic♪piano 03:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Imperfect knowledge or not, I found a grave error in my wording that led the paragraph to be inaccurate to its references. I would not have found it if you had not questioned its neutrality, so among other things (including the support vote), thank you. =) EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 03:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I couldn't find anything at fault. Good article, congrats. Sandman888 (talk) 08:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose by Karanacs. I was very excited to see this article go up, as the Wikipedia coverage of Acadian topics is very poor. I found the first half of the article to be engaging. However, I have concerns about the sourcing in the latter half of the article, and there are a few MOS issues to clear up.
  • Easy stuff first - cquotes are not generally accepted in FAs (see previous discussion at WT:FAC from earlier this summer). The second one in the article should likely be incorporated inline. The first one is a little more tricky. While this could be converted to a quote box, the placement would need to be changed. A quote box is usually placed, like an image, to one side of the text, and there is already an image in this section. I recommend that you find a way to incorporate this as a blockquote into the regular text, or just drop it - to me, this doesn't add a lot to my understanding of the topic.
    • I removed the second quote, as it was more of a way to cut into the large block of information present (which can obviously be depressing for a reader). The first one has been problematic since the day I placed it, since it simply seemed out of place. I eventually took it out, since I ultimately shared your point of view. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hard stuff next - the sourcing in the history section does not meet the FA criteria of "high quality reliable source". Much of the section is sourced to the website of the Petitcodiac Riverkeeper Inc. I would not consider this to be a reliable source at all for history (just as I would not consider a city website to be a reliable source for the history of that city). We have no idea who wrote that information or where they got it, and there's always the possibility of whitewashing when those in charge now relate their history. Same thing for KnowMoncton.com. Same for the National Parks Service. The Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage website is marginally better, but it's nowhere near a "high quality" source. The edited works of Samuel de Champlain are not acceptable because that's a primary source. The section should be using secondary sources, preferably those published in scholarly works. For example, Bona Arsenault's Historie et genealogie des Acadiens. There are lots more works on Acadia and specifically on New Brunswick that would be useful for the pre-expulsion information. Using inferior sources is problematic because you might miss something interesting and useful that the lesser sources don't cover, or because you end up with an incomplete perspective/pov.
    • I don't want to sound like I'm going to rush this point, but I'm scared that if I withdraw this now, I won't have much time for Wikipedia at all due to school in the coming weeks. For some reason, the information feels right. I'm very well aware, however, that it needs to be verifiable. So if you give me until Sunday, I'll be glad to head out to my local library to find some sources for the claims (I live in Moncton, so that's a big plus -- surely there will be ample amounts of available information). A few paragraphs won't be very hard to cover, and I'll try to get Arsenault's book (as it sounds interesting to read). Stay tuned EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some suitable secondary sources for the early material: Fischer, Champlain's Dream addresses the early settlement of Acadia (but probably not the Petitcodiac River). For events and background on the expulsion, Faragher's A Great and Noble Scheme. Magic♪piano 22:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much; I found Faragher's work on Google Books, and Fischer's both on my library's database. I'll be checking those out. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you can redo the history section from scholarly sources and clear up any MOS issues, I think the article should easily pass next time. Good luck! Karanacs (talk) 14:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eric, I very much appreciate your willingness to keep working on this nomination and to search out better sources. I would like to caution you, however, that the solution is not as simple as swapping out each of the unreliable sources with a book source. The point I was trying to make is that scholarly works may present the information differently, so it's important to keep an open mind and read all that you can to see whether the text needs to be changed - either to change emphasis on certain facts, add new facts, remove some. I agree that this summary is probably pretty close, but you never know what you'll find in those scholarly works! Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I thought I had pointed that out in my original comment. I suppose not. Anyway, I'm well aware it could be wrong, and I'm going to take the weekend to verify it. I wasn't sure how to word my comment to assure you of that bit, but I'm well aware of it. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 20:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I knew the explanation might be overkill, but I wanted to be sure we were on the same page. Karanacs (talk) 20:13, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a heads up: the library unexpectedly shut down until the 13th, so I'm going to have to push this back until Wednesday at least. Two of the books I'm planning to consult are references only, and as a result, I'll only have a few hours with them (I'll check out the rest, of course). If there are any other comments or concerns people would like to address other than this specific sourcing issue, feel free to do so. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 15:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Progress check? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Beat me to it by a half-hour. =P I've sourced most of the History section with quality sources from the library. Some of the information was changed to comply with the new sources. (@Karanacs: A substantial amount of info was changed, you can check that in the description if you want. Seems it wasn't as accurate as I believed.) The colonisation section will be merged with the first paragraph of the Acadian history section, due to the fact that I cannot find sources for the Micmac claims (other than the fact that they colonised it and that they live at Fort Folly). The final paragraph of the Recolonisation section will be sourced either tonight or (if I cannot find information) on Saturday. The History section's layout will be shifted tonight as well. That's what I've done so far. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 20:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is done. Larracey's book is quite informative, and I was able to complete everything asked. A bit of the layout was shifted, but not as much as I thought. Just waiting for Karanacs' opinion now. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 02:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at the history section. Kudos for your hard work! Unfortunately, I still see some issues.

  • Assumes knowledge - we don't ever define what Acadia is in the history section.
  • Did Champlain map the Petitcodiac River area during the 1604 expedition? If so, that is important information.
    • He did not. He, Dugua, and Poutrincourt later backtracked their ships (after their infamous stay on Île Saint-Croix) to colonise the settlement of Port Royal in eastern Nova Scotia, but they never touched it. They are often mentioned in works related to the region because Thibodeau, from Port Royal, would colonise the Petitcodiac area 94 years later. Would removing the detail that he was a cartographer help rectify doubts of that sort in the future? EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we have any idea what the population of the area was - either the Mi'kmaq population before/after Europeans arrived, or the Acadian population prior to the expulsion (165 families is a bit misleading, as a few of my ancestors in the area had 13+ kids and some had a lot fewer)?
    • Aha! Found an accurate representation of the Three Rivers' population in 1755. Griffiths cites a book by Paul Surette for this, so I might check it out on Wednesday. Maybe more info lies there. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any information on how the Acadians or the Mi'kmaq used the river in these earlier times? Fishing - any for export or just for home use? Any attempts to harness the water?
    • If you look at the earlier versions of the article, the colonisation section was primarily on how the Mi'kmaq used the tidal bore to travel from Chipoudy to Salisbury, and from Salisbury to the Saint John River -> Saint Lawrence River. I had to take it out when asked to change the source from the Riverkeeper as I found absolutely nothing on it when researching. But yes, they *did* use it... but I can't prove it as of now. (Maybe Surette's book mentioned above could help.) EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any impact to the change in ownership of Acadia between 1713 and 1754?
    • Not very much. The change ended with peace and the Acadians remained neutral between the English and French. I mention the oaths of allegiance they were asked to take, which is probably the only indication of a change in how their land was governed. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any information on English families brought in after the expulsion? I've read (but can't remember if it was just Port Royal/Beaubassin or also here) previously that many Acadians were forced to leave behind almost all of their household goods, and English families often moved into the homes with all the stuff. It would be interesting to see how the population shifted, if you can find numbers to demonstrate. I see that there is more info in Resettlement, but did no English really move in between 1754 and 1766?
  • The history section needs to be copyedited. I did the first section, but there's room for improvement in the other sections.
  • This sentence The victory was thought to have positively impacted the survival of the evacuated Acadians in the region cannot be attributed to the Petitcodiac riverkeeper. That's the kind of assertion that needs to come from a scholar.
    • I was hoping that, since it was related to the memorial mentioned in the source, it could have been accepted. Especially since it's a minor detail. I've removed it from the prose. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Karanacs (talk) 15:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review Several image issues:

  • File:Dentonshad1904.jpg: Where can we verify that this was published (distribution of copies to the public) or registered for copyright in 1904?
    • I did not upload the image (it was uploaded in 2006), but it clearly says that it comes from a work by Denton. This site specifies the work to be New York State's Annual Report of the Commissioners of Fisheries, Game, and Forests, first published in 1985 (last: 1907 -- source). Updated this on description page. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Petitcodiac-watershed-map.jpg, File:Petitcodiac-water-pollution.jpg, File:Petitcodiac-causeway.jpg: I would prefer for the source to be the url of the page that displays the image instead of the direct link (WP:CITE#IMAGES), although the OTRS alleviates the concern somewhat.
  • File:Monctontidalbore.jpg: The source states "1908?" and states "Courtesy of the Petitcodiac Riverkeeper". Images on Commons have to be public domain in the US and the country of origin. It needs verification where this photograph was first published. Since the "Petitcodiac Riverkeeper" is mentioned as the source, then it should be possible to contact them to verify this and to obtain a copy of better resolution; they are the ones who granted the OTRS permission for the above three images.
    • Source of original photo. Original source stated "spring 1908?", and the question mark was referring to the "spring" claim. Hover text on website confirms the date. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The site makes no mention of whether this photo was published or not (a factor in determining the image's copyright status in the US). Publishing (distribution of copies to the public) and creation are two separate concepts; one can take a photograph in 1908 and keep it in his or her private collection before selling copies of it to interested parties in 1930 (thus making first publishing in that year). It would be better to seek clarification from Riverkeeper.
      • Note that several pre-1923 postcards, which show an overhead view of the bore, are at the Musee McCord Museum (search with "Petitcodiac" and check the "Include images of partners"). These postcards are in the public domain of both United States (PD-1923) and Canada (PD-Canada), so I would encourage their use instead if the above cannot be resolved. Jappalang (talk) 02:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done. Thank you very much for the link; I found the boat photo in The First Hundred by E. W. Larracey, but still no source was found, so I've taken two replacement images from the link you gave me. very helpful and much more verifiable. Thanks. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:50, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Boat-petitcodiac-river.jpg: Where can we verify that this was published or registered for copyright in 1908? Hence, what is its copyright status in the United States? Per WP:CITE#IMAGES, the page that displays the image should be linked, not the direct link to the image.

Other than the second item, the rest should be addressed before promotion to FA can occur. Jappalang (talk) 03:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't normally take this long to respond, but I was a little busy. Fixed everything I could. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 22:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images are okay, either licensed appropriately or can be verified to be in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 02:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (reluctantly) by Ruhrfisch

  • While I can see how much work has gone into this, I do not think it is up to FA standards yet. I had read most of this when Karanacs made her comments and hoped that the History section would be improved more than it has been. While the sourcing is better, there are still large gaps in the history. SInce comprehensiveness is a FA criterion, the gaps need to be addressed. For example the section "Resettlement and modern history (1763–1968)" has no material more recent than 1859, so there is over a century missing in its coverage. The Causeway controversy (1968–present) section is nicely done, but again focuses on just one (very important) aspect of the river. What else has happened since 1859?
    • I understand your concern, but I'd like to note that other than the shipbuilding boom in the 1840–50s, there is little to say about the area, let alone how the river takes part in its history. Around the 1860s, the shipbuilding industry collapsed due to the benefits of the new European and North American Railway which came to the city. The city grew economically again when they became the HQ for ICR, and they were affiliated with them until the 1970s. I've looked through six sources for any reference for the building of covered bridges mentioned by Petitcodiac Riverkeeper, but nothing came up (took it out as a result). I can't verify their claims that the river was used for shipping sandstone to Boston and New York in the 1900s either, so I was forced to take that out as well. The river simply lost its novelty after the crash in the 1860s, and it was probably for that reason that it was seen as a nuisance in the 1960s (when the causeway was built). I could probably add the ICR bit to the article to talk of the economic crash, but other than that, I don't think anything is worth noting. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added the bit about the E&NA railway and the rest of the shipbuilding industry, which reaches to the beginning of the 1900s. If you want more, give me Wednesday and I'll check out a few more books, to see if they help. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 19:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also found the Acadian expulsion a bit confusing - the end of the first paragraph of the Acadian history (1698–1763) section says the governor orders their expulsion, then the first sentence of the next paragraph is Approximately 165 Acadian families living in the region of Trois-Rivières were affected by this event. but I am fuzzy as to how exactly they were affected - were they expelled? Well it seems not as they were there to fight the British, and then starve. However the first sentence of the next paragraph is Following the expulsion, Acadians in exile began to return to the region to resume their daily lives.[78] so some at least were expelled. I am confused.
  • I was looking at this source and it talks some about the growing population of Moncton and how it is having an impact on the river - there is very little on the modern history of the settlements and people of the watershed (120,000 plus population)
    • This will be worth adding in the Resettlement section. I'll do so when I finish researching on Wednesday. Thanks. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Colonisation and Acadian history sections are about the region much more than the river, so I am not sure why there cannot be some history of the region / watershed in the later History subsections. Could there be mention of the political history? Could the dates of establishment of New Brunswick, the counties, cities and villages on the river be included? There are some population figures already, could the growth of the region be cited? I am not very familiar with the history of New Brunswick, but it just seems like there has to be more - the growth of the cities along the river led to the disastrous causeway being built. Are there books on just covered bridges in Canada / NB? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh. I was under the impression that the article should have been straying from speaking too much about the region. Most of the Acadian history served as a background aid. I'll try to find info on population figures and growth on Wednesday. Political history... err, Canadian confederation took place in 1867, and New Brunswick was one of four provinces to enter that year. Nothing has changed other than that. As for the covered bridges, I found a short book on those in the Maritimes, but they only mention the more popular ones (i.e., Hartland, New Brunswick), and not in general. No confirmation on the number in the area either other than what the Riverkeeper has on their site. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 01:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same source has an author, who is not listed in the ref here
  • I was looking at the source to try and figure out which are the four major tributaries mentioned in the lead. They are shown on the 19th century map, but at least one name has changed and it is very hard to figure out what these are from the article text. I also am a bit amazed that a river this large has only 10 named tribs
    • This was very tough to integrate. Most of the sources I found only cited the Anagance, North, Little, and Pollett rivers as "major tributaries". When I found the 1999-2001 report by the PWMA, they cited 11 "sub-watersheds" (each encompassing a total of 28 streams), one of which was not even tributaries of the Petitcodiac River, but tributaries of tributaries of the Petitcodiac River (lol, I hope you understood that). With that said, I don't think there is an established list or number of tributaries, so I had to say four major tributaries (per the majority of sources I found), and ten "established" tributaries (listed at the Tributaries section) encompassing 28 additional streams. I could change the lead's statement to ten tributaries, and add them in the Course narrative and infobox, but seeing that you are knowledgeable with rivers, I would appreciate it if you could give me your say on this. Also, it is stated in the Course section that the Little River used to be named the Coverdale River. I will write a stub sometime on the river. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 16:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The basic point I was trying to make is that the lead is a summary of the rest of the article. If the lead says there are 4 majors tribs, then the article should at least repeat this and identify which ones they are. I think the article could say something like the Petitcodiac River is divided into 11 subwatersheds, which are drained by 10 tributaries. Might also help to note which trib is large enough to be part of two subwatersheds. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Acres should have metric equivalents per MOS

This is not a complete list of objections, but I belive it is enought to justify my reluctant oppose. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am fine with you taking more time, though it is up to the FAC director and his delegates how long this FAC runs.
    • Of course. I was getting a little worried they would have closed it by now, but I'm sure that I only have one run to the library left before I get most of this straightened out. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I note that the Wildlife section focuses almost entirely on the fish etc in the river, then has the mastodon. Most river FAs talk about the wildlife of the land around the river too. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Most rivers aren't largely surrounded by cities, either. I found this a few moments ago. Might shed a bit more information on what species are present. I may integrate it tonight or tomorrow. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 00:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 12:45, 20 September 2010 [22].

Warren County, Indiana

Nominator(s): Omnedon (talk) 22:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because Huwmanbeing and I have done a substantial amount of work on the article over the past month, and I feel that it is now substantially complete and provides a thorough overview of the county. Omnedon (talk) 22:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 22:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — I've contributed to this article. I think it meets the specified criteria and I support its advancement to featured article status. Huwmanbeing ☀★ 22:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wanted to support but I will oppose because it is not among wikipedias best work. At even a quick look there are a lot of notable issues: intro is way too short; multiple paragraphs lack citations entirely; a lot of links are unnecessarily bolded; a few short paragraphs, and a very short health care section (either merge this somewhere else or expand it). Nergaal (talk) 02:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • These concerns should all be addressable without too much difficulty. I can say right now that the bolding was intended to call out those articles which were the subjects of those specific sections; but if that's not acceptable per MOS I'll certainly remove the bolding. Omnedon (talk) 02:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for the moment. This is a decent, well-illustrated and generally informative article. It is in the main the work of one editor, with significant help from one other. Its main problem is that it does not seem to have undergone any form of prior review before coming here; unless I have missed something, there has been no peer review, no GA submission, no talkpage discussion. Any of such reviews might have allowed some basic problems to be identified and fixed prior to this nomination. In particular:

  • Lead: does not conform to the requirements of WP:LEAD and needs to be expanded into a summary of the whole article.
  • Citations: there are problems here, with whole sections, e.g. Transportation, lacking any citations, but the problem may in part be organisational rather than a lack of sources. A general rule of thumb is to ensure there is at least one citation per paragraph, and to end each paragraph with a citation. In the Demographics section, for example, all the information is sourced from the United States Census Bureau, though this isn't immediately evident. A citation to the census data should be placed at the end of each of the section's paragraphs. Is there any reason, incidentally, why the census citation couldn't be directly to here?
  • Prose: while this is not bad, it is somewhat clumsy and repetitive in places. Sample extract: "The first county courthouse was a log house belonging to Enoch Farmer, one of the county's earliest settlers, in the original county seat of Warrenton. In Williamsport, a log house belonging to William Harrison served as a courthouse. The first purpose-built courthouse was completed in 1835..." It doesn't read smoothly. The prose would benefit from a copyedit, preferably from a previously uninvolved editor.
  • Minor fixes; the bolded links issue raised above (also bolded subheads in Government section), bullet-point format within text, inconsistencies, e.g. "'40s and '50s" as well as "1960s" and "1980s".

I have also reviewed the sources. Apart from the citations issues raised above, there are no further isues here. Brianboulton (talk) 10:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • With hindsight, I can see that a peer review would have been useful; this is my first time through this process. As to a prior GA submission, I did not see that there was a progression from GA to FA, but if it is recommended then we'll go that way. It may be that this FA submission should be withdrawn for now while the article receives some more work on these issues. The demographics section is a standard element in most articles about cities, counties, and so on; it was auto-generated long ago, but I can see that this needs to be fixed as well. Thanks for the input. Omnedon (talk) 12:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:29, 17 September 2010 [23].

Things Aren't Simple Any More

Nominator(s): The JPStalk to me 18:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is comprehensive and appears to tick all of the boxes. It has recently undergone a copyedit from the Guild of Copyeditors, and a peer review further enhanced the prose. I envisage any additional improvements that might be requested here to be minimal. The JPStalk to me 18:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support This looks good to me, although I've had a go at revising the introduction into the "three paragraph" structure. I'm not sure if it's an improvement or not (feel free to revert). Bob talk 10:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I remember watching this episode when it was first broadcast, and it was powerful stuff, but I don't get much of a sense of that from this article. On the other hand, it seems altogether too weepy for me in some places, such as in the caption under the lead image: "Watching the shot being filmed gave the writer a lump in his throat." From a more technical FA perspective, the lead does not adequately summarise the article and the tenses and chronology in the Synopsis section seem to be all over the place. For instance, what does "The story begins in present day with Margaret (Annette Crosbie) having a heated telephone conversation ..." mean? Present-day what? Should that be "the present day"? Back to the weepiness theme, what about this: "The technicalities and temperature of the night shoot meant that the scene did not impact upon the cast and crew during filming. But as he watched Victor's arm falling into the shot and his cap drift away in the gutter, Renwick "for a moment" felt a lump in his throat." Hard to know where to start with that. Malleus Fatuorum 21:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the copyedits you've just undertaken. What do you think the lead is missing? It seems to cover every major part of the article? How do you feel the 'powerful stuff' can be addressed without breaching WP:NOR? Perhaps it isn't actually "powerful stuff"? The Synopsis can only describe things objectively. The Reception section is the closest we can get to any impact upon viewers.
      I have removed "present day".
      There are not many reliable sources discussing the production. Thus, I can only work with what there is. If it's weepy, it's weepy. Unfortunately there are no RS discussing more mundane things.
      The caption you mention justifies the inclusion of the image. I'll take it out if it will change your vote. If not, there's no point.
      The sentence: "The technicalities and temperature..." has been rewritten.
      Also, two copyeditors have not spotted tense issues; I am blind to them too? Could you help me by pointing them out?
      I hope you'll help me address your concerns. The JPStalk to me 21:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Other copyeditors will of course have their own opinions, and resolving what you meant by "present day" has helped, but let me ask you what this means: "Confiding to a priest (William Osborne), Margaret pledges vengeance for Victor's death, vowing to "kill him with my bare hands". Kill who? The priest? Malleus Fatuorum 22:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, that's another good point. I'll address it. You aren't obliged to correct things yourself, but since you obviously have greater skills than I (I'm not being snide -- I'm being genuine), any chance you could give it another copyed? It'll save time, and improve the quality for the reader. The JPStalk to me 22:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm not a publicly funded service, and there are many things I want to do here myself, so I can't do everything that everyone else wants me to do, even if I was so inclined. It's my honest view that this nomination was a little premature, and that fixing it within the time-frame of an FAC is unrealistic. Others may disagree. Malleus Fatuorum 22:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Exp lead, and I've even cut down the 'weepy' caption. The JPStalk to me 05:38, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on 1a. The problem with the prose is unexplained connections/statements. It assumes far too much that you know and expect even a knowledgeable reader to know as well. Needs a certain distance. I do not see how the rest of the text could possibly be up to standard, and this has been here for quite a while. Here are comments about the lead alone.

  • Is it useful to divert readers to British television in the opening sentence? It would be more likely to be clicked on as a "See also", wouldn't it? Could you peruse the link target Final episode to determine whether it is sufficiently focused in this context? (Is a section-link more appropriate?). There are plenty of high-value links at the opening already; I'm concerned about dilution (WP:OVERLINK).
  • It's a little unusual in this type of WP article to use past tense, particulary when you open with "is". Don't people still view it on DVD etc?
  • "Renwick had been struggling to conceive and write new stories for the series and had therefore decided to kill off the character." Is the causal logic of "therefore" clear to us? I'd be inclined to remove that word.
  • Isn't it the BBC TV Centre?
  • "sensationalist"—unclear why Christmas makes it thus.
  • The possessive apostrophe for "Millionaire?" doesn't work.
  • Speech tags ... "said" is the default, and use ellipsis. But here, even "felt" would be OK. So instead of the laboured "Many reviewers commented that the dark tone of the final episode was characteristic of the series, reflecting that killing off the protagonist was", try "Many reviewers felt that the dark tone of the final episode was characteristic of the series, and that killing off the protagonist was"
  • I don't quite get this: "Although this was the final full-length episode, Victor and Margaret returned in a short sketch for Comic Relief's Red Nose Day telethon on 16 March 2001". Tony (talk) 15:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:14, 16 September 2010 [24].

Abraham Lincoln

Nominator(s): Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I"m nominating this because I think it meets the FA criteria. The is a co-nom with User:Carmarg4. It's been over a year in the making, with a big push in the last couple months. Also, it's a WP:VITAL article. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. No problems with dablinks or deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 16:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Based on my calculation of readable prose, the article comes in at 81 kilobytes. This may or may not be a problem (see WP:SIZERULE) but it probably needs to be addressed. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:19, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I read once that only Jesus Christ has had more books written about him than Abraham Lincoln. I know I have at least 20 books on Abe in my library. For such a personage, the length of the article should not be a problem. After giving it a quick review, if there is a demand to shorten it, a lot of the military stuff the generals did could be edited out. I say this as a Civil War nut and living historian with scores of books on the military aspects of the War. After all, the article is about Abe, not what the generals did. Thomas R. Fasulo (talk) 17:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - very impressive work. Some things to be improved/addressed:

More to follow tomorrow. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Donald provides Lincoln's..." - who is Donald?
  • "In August 1861, Gen. John Fremont in Missouri created controversy, on the Republican side, when he issued, without consulting Lincoln, a proclamation of martial law in that entire state, declaring that any citizen found bearing arms could be court-martialed and shot and that slaves of persons aiding the rebellion would be freed" - split or reword sentence for flow
  • "To this dictatorial insubordination were added charges of ineptness, fraud and corruption" - do you mean legal charges, or just accusations?
  • "boarded the British ship Trent; Union officers boarded the British vessel" - repetitious
  • "Trent Affair" or "Trent Affair"?
  • Double-check your capitalization of "Confederate" and related terms, as it's inconsistent at times
  • "drumbeat of complaints" - I'm not familiar with this phrase; does it mean lots of complaints, loud complaints, a sudden storm of complaints, steady complaints over a period of time...?
  • "War department" or "War Department"?
  • In one paragraph you say McClellan became general-in-chief, in the next you say he was passed over for general-in-chief - which is correct?
  • What is "the Rappahannock"? Perhaps a link or explanation for those of us unfamiliar with the term?
  • "reached a crescendo" - do you mean reached a peak? Reaching a crescendo means beginning a long but steady increase; given the context, that seems incorrect
  • Rosecran or Rosecrans?
  • "The Commander in Chief was most dejected" - tone
  • "the writing was on the wall and he tendered his resignation" - clarify?
  • "Charleston harbor" -> "Charleston Harbor" or "the Charleston harbor" or "Charleston's harbor"?
  • Make more frequent use of hyphens - see WP:HYPHEN
  • "an explanation why the war with all its horrors had to continue" - reword for tone
  • "battle of Shiloh" -> "Battle of Shiloh"?
  • "The Confederacy was out of replacements" - wording
  • "backed Grant to the hilt" - what does this mean?
  • Double-check capitalization of titles, "South(ern)" and other sometimes-proper nouns
  • Are the Founders the same as the Founding Fathers?
  • "all persons held as a slaves" - typo present in original?
  • Avoid linking the same terms multiple times
  • What's your rationale for sometimes abbreviating military ranks and other times spelling them out?
  • Be consistent in using black vs African American (except where quoting)
  • The infobox states that Lincoln was a member of the Union Party in 1864, and a Republican only in 1865. What is the rationale for this distinction?
  • Union Party or Union party?
  • "And Frederick Douglas remarked..." - grammar
  • "The only known photographs of Lincoln giving a speech were taken as he delivered his second inaugural address" - did he not speak at his first inauguration? Source for this statement?
  • You jump from the appointments to the promotion of restoration of statehood to criticism of the appointments
  • Salmon Chase or Salmon P. Chase?
  • Explain what "greenback" means in this context

More later. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Yeah. Whoa. This is where the "FAC isn't PR" comes in. Do you think this article needs several thorough copy edits, Nikkimaria? --Moni3 (talk) 13:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, sorry, I could go on like that for a while...definite copy-editing needed, and a check for consistency in all sorts of things, but I'd say it also needs some attention from a non-US reader (or at least someone who's not an expert on American history) to catch stuff that needs to be explained and clarified or reworded. I also noticed some sourcing concerns, most of which are covered by Ealdgyth below. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:39, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Current ref 37 (Shenk...) shouldn't The Atlantic be The Atlantic to match the rest of your refs?
  • Same for current ref 213 (North & South...)
  • What makes http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/richmond.htm a reliable high quality source?
  • Likewise http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/inside.asp?ID=9&subjectID=2?
  • Need a publisher for the Boritt Book in the bibliography
  • Please make sure you spell out University in the bibliography ... I noted the Edgar book is just "Univ.", which is inconsistent with the other refs. Same note for the Handy ref.
  • Most of your bibliography entries do not give place of publication, so you should remove it from those that do to make refs consistent.
  • Please spell out the abbreviation in the Holzer ref.
  • The 2009 McPherson needs a publisher
  • Please spell out the abbreviation in the Naveh ref
  • Need a publisher for the Zarefsky ref.
  • Personally, I'd prune some of the external links - the Lincoln memorial website's a better link for the Lincoln Memorial article, you use the Lincoln Institute as a ref, so if it passes scrutiny, it should not be in the external links, Likewise you use the Lincoln Boyhood home and the Lincoln home websites, so they shouldn't be in the external links, and a link to the Project Gutenburg main search page is enough, don't need to list all the (outdated) works.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This is a hugely important article and has been the subject of much recent work, but I believe it should not be here at this point. The article's history shows that since its delisting from FA status in October 2006 it has failed GAN four times, the last in September 2009. It has never, so far as I can see, had a formal peer review. The number of points raised in this review thus far highlight its unpreparedness for FAC. Please bring it to PR. Brianboulton (talk) 19:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Definite PR needed, I'm afraid. I haven't read the article at length, but I see a few technical aspects that need to be revisited. First of all, the EL section is overblown; the general belief is that the more links are included, the less useful the section becomes. Cull what is less notable, and perhaps tone down the editorial additions; for example, what makes one link "popular" or "good early history", and the others not? Why such a long list to works listed on Gutenberg? Also, I'm surprised (what with the huge amount of sources available) that the article leans heavily on the two Donald books. Is there a reason more than half of the citations are made to these works, as opposed to the dozens of others that are out there? The citations themselves need c-e for consistency, as well: a few "Donald"s are missing the year in parentheses, and do citations end with periods or no? Such an important article, but more work needs to be done. María (habla conmigo) 14:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I'm reading this together with a buddy who's a Lincoln enthusiast. I agree with above comments that this needs a PR and a thorough copy edit. I'm finding a lot of repetitive or unnecessary wording, and in several instances controversial statements presented as plain fact. Here's a sample, I can provide more later.

  • I have a problem with the word 'dedicated' in this sentence: Lincoln was a dedicated, though often absent, husband, and father of four children. He was gone 9 months of the year and fought a lot with Mary. How about 'affectionate'?
  • This is repeated in the two first paragraphs: Before his election in 1860 as the first Republican president,... and then in the second, Lincoln won the Republican nomination and was elected president in 1860. Take out one.
  • This sentence is awkward because of the word 'became': Six days after the surrender of Confederate forces under Robert E. Lee, Lincoln became the first American president to be assassinated.
  • This must be an error: He brought leaders of each faction of his party into his cabinet--he had Democrats in the cabinet too.
  • I'm finding a lot of unnecessary 'fluff' wording that could be cut out to make the article more concise and to-the-point. e.g. one of the greatest of all U.S. Presidents. → one of the greatest U.S. Presidents.
  • Thomas, financially austere, became a respected citizen of rural Kentucky. 'financially austere' sounds awkward. And it's pretty debatable whether he had general respect; a lot of people thought he was a sucker and a bully.
  • Either explain 'milk sickness' in a clause, or leave it out: his 34-year-old mother died of milk sickness
  • This sentence is awkward: he willingly took on all chores expected of him as a male in the household, albeit young, tall and thin.
  • This sentence is another example of excessive unnecessary wording. Can it be made more concise? As was the custom, Lincoln also dutifully fulfilled the obligation of a son to give his father all earnings from his work for third parties until age 21.
  • Another awkward sentence: He was not a hard worker during his teens, with family and neighbors often calling him lazy. 'with' is an awkward linker.
  • The first paragraph in Marriage and family is debatable. It might make sense to have an attribution at the beginning saying 'According to Lincoln's law partner and biographer, ...' or something like that.
  • Another awkward sentence: Lincoln agreed to a match with Mary proposed by her sister, if Mary ever returned to New Salem.
  • This doesn't make sense: Mary Lincoln worked valiantly in their home
  • Another bad sentence: One evening, absorbed in his reading at home, Lincoln suddenly was rapped on the head with a piece of firewood by Mary, who had made four requests of him to restart the fire with no response. the passive voice makes it hard to read.
  • There are a lot of controversial points that are presented as uncontested facts. e.g. committing Mary to an asylum is attributed to the deaths--that's heavily contested. You could just take out the cause and effect there and state that Robert had her committed. Also, Abraham Lincoln suffered from "melancholy", a condition now called clinical depression. Maybe you should say 'which might be the condition now called..." or something.

If you end up taking this to PR, I'd be happy to give it a thorough review for you, let me know. delldot ∇. 19:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:49, 14 September 2010 [25].

Evanna Lynch

Nominator(s): Alex Douglas (talk) 10:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets the featured article criteria. (Updated:) Evanna Lynch is an Irish actress who rose to prominence playing Luna Lovegood, a supporting role in the Harry Potter film and video game series. Her casting was "big news", she has received critical acclaim for her acting, and she has done fashion, modelling and charity work. Alex Douglas (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have expanded the nom statement. Thanks for the advice. Alex Douglas (talk) 10:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the nom statement. Thanks for the advice. Alex Douglas (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed your comments. Spike.com is the official website of the television channel Spike, the channel which the Scream Awards are broadcast on. It's the primary source for the awards. If it is unacceptable, there's an About.com article, [26]? Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to accept your assurances on Spike.com, provided other knowledgable editors don't object. Brianboulton (talk) 23:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Thanks for your comments. Alex Douglas (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Evanna Lynch at HBP signing in London - Dec 09.jpg

The article doesn't seem very comprehensive at all. The whole article seems underdeveloped. I notice that she's only famous for playing this Luna Lovegood but there's absolutely no information on who this person is. That seems like a fundamental omission. The article also isn't neutral: you've just cherry-picked quotes to make it seem like this actress is more fantastic than it is, there's no negative remarks or insightful analysis, just unrepentant gushing praise fanboyism. Anyway, I suggest you withdraw your nomination as the flaws are too serious to be fixed in the timescale. Even if somehow you do and get the supports you need, the article as I said above will only get worse with time and you won't be able to keep it in shape. Actually maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're such a fanboy that you will indeed spend the next half-century of your life dedicated to keeping this article an FA. Remains to be seen.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.247.236 (talk • contribs) 01:07, September 13, 2010

My advice to the nominator is to ignore the invective from this IP and focus on working on the article. It is always good to have people trying to get articles up to the highest standard :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 03:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your review 86.141.247.236. I have search every review on Rotten Tomatoes for Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince for "luna", "evanna" or "lynch" and I have not found one negative comment regarding her, her character or her performance. I believe I have fixed many of the flaws you've specified; if there any more, I encourage you to specify them below. :) Thanks again for your review, and thank you to Hamiltonstone for those kind words and emoticon. :) Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Notwithstanding the grumpy or derisive tone of the IP, they have identified a range of issues, many of which I agree need fixing. Other things:
  • Is the Tubridy Show a reliable source??
  • Couple of online source retrieval dates missing.
  • "While on the Harry Potter set, she was tutored for at least three hours a day." That's nice for her. But apart from the sourcing problem I;ve already noted, the WP text doesn't say in what. Speculative fiction? Surely not - does it mean her secondary schooling? hamiltonstone (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't believe pro gay marriage activism counts as "charity" and for the videogame thing it should be clarified what this entails as it is not obvious. Do they paste her face in various poses onto a figure, or does she record catchcries that are used when a character does certain things? Per WP's aversion to crystal balling, it may be better to reframe the lead sentence about the next film to say that filming is done and due for release YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Charity is centered around goals of a general philanthropic nature. An example of such nature, is education, the process of transmitting knowledge, skills and personal and cultural morals, values and ethics to another. She is "educating" others on a position of ethics. Little bit of a stretch; but the HPA is a charitable organization. She is a voice artist for the game; I will check the source in the morning. Is the 'final film' stuff really necessary in the lead? It's covered in the "Career" section and the lead is just summary. Thanks very much for your comments. Thanks! Alex Douglas (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:49, 14 September 2010 [27].

Albany, New York

Nominator(s): upstateNYer 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article was just uprated to GA after a many-month rewrite by me. I think it is thorough, broad, and well written. I'm bringing this to FAC in an effort to get one of the central articles of WP:NYCD to FA level. Note that this nomination is in no way related to the previous FAC. upstateNYer 22:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ucucha 23:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've left scrub oak as dab because I don't know what kind of scrub oak it is. No source has indicated. As for the links:
      1. Fixed
      2. Fixed, but the another user may update this if he believes he has a better source Waiting on help from an expert (annoying that NPS links have all died like this)
      3. Fixed
upstateNYer 23:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps link to oak instead. Thanks for the fixes. Ucucha 23:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I could, but Scrub Oak is more appropriate. Is using a dab in this situation really all that bad? Also, #2 link above has been replaced. If the expert changes it, so be it, but the source I just put up works for now. upstateNYer 23:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Quercus ilicifolia appears to be the only "scrub oak" that actually occurs in the northeastern U.S., so you could just link that species. No dead external links left. Ucucha 23:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Beat me to it, I just came to the same conclusion and updated accordingly. upstateNYer 23:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to confirm, Albany Pine Bush lists Quercus ilicifolia as a native species.
--Gyrobo (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

Otherwise, as far as I can see, sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]



I have been asked by the editor in question, with I whom I have worked a lot, to review the article and, before I do, I should make it clear that I am also a member of the Capital District project, that I have under the auspices of the National Register of Historic Places WikiProject and the urban studies and planning WikiProject written and photographed a great deal of the articles about historic buildings and neighborhoods in and around downtown Albany, which is about an hour and a half from where I live. However, I haven't worked on this article much save for converting the main infobox to a geobox, which I am glad to see the article retains.

That said, it is with much regret that I cannot support this for FA at this time. It's too long at 184K. That is the symptom of some other issues it has, and fortunately we can get to the FA by cutting it down.

Readable prose is actually 64kB (10,651 words), which is in a grey zone for splitting. I would, of course, argue that it is not too long. As I mentioned on your my talk page (in response to your response), there are numerous other FAs that are longer than this (Byzantine Empire, Ming Dynasty, among others). Admittedly, those examples are large, historical entities. But history is Albany's bread and butter. It's economy is not notable (there are 49 other state capitals in the country and, what, 60 million other baby boomers starting to hit their later [more sick-prone] years?), it's religious breakdown is similar to local states and cities, its outright noted for lacking in culture. Its government is notable, but mostly because of its machine-led history. Its architecture is notable, but that's history, too. The upside to local articles is you can go into more detail because the subject is smaller. Unlike Byzantine Empire and Ming Dynasty, we can mention specific people, and even roads (roads!). These are important to the city's development. I think length arguments are not all that valid because of past FA precedent and necessity of detail to really get to know Albany. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, not that it's conclusive or anything, but the page size tool describes the article's length as "readable prose size". upstateNYer 21:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't yet finished going through the 36-page hard copy, but here are some things we can do, not all of which are related to the length issue:

Geobox
  • The photomontage in the box could be more diverse. There are two photos of Empire Plaza, and you and I know that, despite being the most prominent thing in the city that does not define Albany all by itself, especially when another one of the pics is SUNY Albany's similarly Soviet-style architecture. You don't need to take them out, but perhaps you could put more in between them. Something green and beautiful, like the tulip festival or the Pine Bush, or Washington Park, that contrasts with the buildings, would really be a good idea.
    • Low on the priorities list and something that shouldn't withhold an FA star. We can look at that in the future. Although, just to make it known, I was making an effort to try to incorporate geographically diverse locations; architecture wasn't my biggest concern. And how else would you represent western Albany other than SUNY? But we'll save this for another day. upstateNYer 21:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since Albany AFAICT was never incorporated as a village before it became a city since its incorporation predates the state of New York and its General Municipal Law, we do not need to specify "incorporation as city".
Now I'm a little confused as well. My original point was that the recognition of Albany as a municipal entity of whatever nature by a higher political authority was well prior to the establishment of New York State. Therefore it was, along with at least Kingston, New York City and (I think) Schenectady a sort of "charter member" of the state's municipalities that did not need to be rechartered as cities or villages under the General Municipal Law or whatever the predecessor legislation was.

Camelbinky is suggesting that it was the equivalent of a village under the Dutch (were there any other municipalities in New Netherland at the time recognized as ... what would the Dutch word be? Staat or something like that? Or was dorpe just the general term for any settlement with legal status as a body corporate and politic?)

I think I can put this into one question: was there any time following the establishment of New York State in 1777 when Albany was not considered a city? Since the Dongan charter was not abrogated or replaced it would seem the new state accepted it as a city without requiring it to be a village first. Daniel Case (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dongan is clear that it takes the "town of Albany" and creates the "Mayor, Aldermen, and Commonalty of the City of Albany". As the article says, this is almost the same document prepared for NYC three months earlier. I've never heard that any formal legislation took place at the time of statehood. They had already been declared cities, so nobody argued it I guess. upstateNYer 21:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify- Beverwyck, about a year before New Amsterdam, was given a municipal government by Director-General of New Netherland Peter Stuyvesant. The Dutch used the word dorpe generally translated as village, though town is acceptable, and NYC histories often call their incorporation that of a city, so whatever you want to call it Beverwyck had a government. I thought Daniel Case was saying that prior to the Dongan Charter Albany was not a legally incorporated entity by his saying "Albany was not a village". I misunderstood. Albany, unlike NYC, never lost its city status (NYC gave up its charter during the Leisler Rebellion). As for the the Legislature's involvement in municipal status after becoming a state it legally couldnt after the US Supreme Court's Dartmouth v. Woodward decision made charters (a form of contract) as sacrosanct as any contract and technically Albany and the earlier charter cities couldnt have their charters revoked, just as New Hampshire couldnt do that to Dartmouth.Camelbinky (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it necessary to have all the councilmembers in the box? I put only the mayor's name there, and a city manager if there is one. That list would be better in the government section, since it is likely to be changed frequently. Or possibly in a separate article, yet to be written AFAICT, on the Albany City Council.
  • I'd submit that we also don't need the three maps in the box, just the default one with the pushpin. The other two can go into the geography section. This would help ease the pressure on the layout.
    • I disagree; the pushpin maps are tolerable due to our lack of cartographers on the project. I was able to find and use one, however, and he gave us a great map. The county/state map gives context. I don't think either needs to be removed. upstateNYer 21:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Overall layout

While I appreciate the general alternation of images as easing readability as I have long advocated, there are too many places where (at least on my monitor) text is squeezed between images contrary to MOS:IMAGES (granted, this may be an issue of our respective thumb-size preferences) We can help this by shortening the geobox per my suggestions above, and also by making sure the image captions don't go more than two lines of text long. The caption to the image of Robert Fulton's steamboat should just tell us what it is ... the passenger load info is really better off in the text.

Also, we should look at culling some of the images, and the first way to do that is eliminate uunjustifiable fair-use ones. I could find only one: the picture of Erastus (or is it Erasmus, as you spelled his grandfather's name on first reference?) Corning. Since the article doesn't discuss either that picture or his appearance, I submit that the picutre of him fails FUC #8 and should be removed.

  • Any article on Albany would be sorely incomplete without a reference to Corning. He was mayor for almost one-fifth the time Albany has existed as a city in the United States. And with that an image is more than appropriate (the name Corning shows up 34 times in the article, and rightly so). I think it is used more than fairly. Also, I don't see this reference to "Erasmus". Has that been fixed? upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The amount of times his name shows up in the article means a hill of beans as far as FUC 8 stands: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Readers can click on the link to the article if they really want to know what he looked like; I don't think his appearance is necessary to understanding his effect on the city. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still disagree with your assessment, but I've removed him. upstateNYer 20:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it were totally up to me we wouldn't be so anal about FUC 8, and my only objection would be the placement. But them's the rules, and I noticed Sandy wondered whether we had more images than we needed as well. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Structure

With 300+ footnotes at present, you should put the section with your multiply-used references, which I believe is currently your bibliography section, ahead of the references as "Works cited". Then make "Further reading" a separate section after the notes, before External links.

When I first started citing this way (listing pages in Reference section and bibliography later), I based it on Joan of Arc, an FA. I've now done this on dozens of articles, including Oakwood Cemetery (Troy, New York), my first FA. I don't really see a reason to break from the pattern, in all honesty. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Made Further reading its own section. upstateNYer 23:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, most of us stick with our preferred way of doing things if there's no MOS or other policy dictating to the contrary. But it's a little rough on a reader looking at your footnotes to have to go down to the bibliography; I think the natural tendency on a scrollable web page is to go back up. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is wholly a preference debate. I disagree that the first inclination is to go back up from the References section and I don't think I've ever seen (or at least noticed) the way you describe it. upstateNYer 21:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And it isn't helped by the fact that while you'd think, from reading the list at WP:FOOTERS, that "Works cited" should go first, when you read the fine print you realize that that only applies to works by the subject of an article, which is obviously inapplicable here, and it is silent on the question of whether that hierarchy should apply as well to a list of works frequently used as sources. It's something we should take up at the appropriate talk page, but not here, obviously. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Intro
  • What about the alternate "AAL-ba-nee" pronunciation of the city's name? I knew I'd lived in Syracuse long enough when I started saying it that way, more in keeping with Inland Northern American English.
    • My gut response is "this is just wrong", but I realize others say it differently. However, is the pronunciation not supposed to be based on local preference (which is clearly AWL-bany)? And to add to that, the name is British, and they say it the way we (locals) do. But I don't think many locals consider the other phrasing to be an alternate; more of a butchering, really. upstateNYer 22:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Butchering it may be, but it's the way about a third or so of New York's population pronounces the name of their state capital, whether reading the news, running for office or planning a trip. You and I call the fizzy sweet brown stuff we drink soda, but from Auburn west it's pop. Whatever you think of that term (and my Buffalo-born wife similarly looks down on "soda"), it's an encyclopedic aspect of New York. Ditto with the way Albany is pronounced. Daniel Case (talk) 04:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Part of New York, but not part of Albany. I personally have yet to meet a New Yorker (save for a NYC-er with a NYC or Brooklyn accent) not pronounce Albany correct (Buffalo? Syracus? I've spent some serious time in these places and never noticed this; and this is a pet peeve of mine). Only out-of-staters (mid-westerners actually) have I heard say AL-bany. And a third of the population? I would very much like to see a source for that. upstateNYer 21:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Brooklyn? To me that's where, if anything, you'll hear the vowel sound pronounced too correctly, if that's possible (Think the early versions of SNL's Coffee Talk sketches, where pretty much the only gag is the pronunciation of that vowel sound. I think Myers retooled them to the Linda Richman "like buttah" sketches because he knew that there wasn't much further he could go in that direction).

But I should rephrase to "the portion of the state with three of the four cities in it that are more populous than Albany but less populous than New York" (And that you can verify here, here and here with the cited sources). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I first off, should acknowledge my COI with this article, as most articles I have written are related intimately to this subject and I have been involved in Upstater's rewrite with helping to find sources and especially with fact checking. I would say the tendency for articles to keep to the correct pronounciation and not cater to whatever someone "happens" to hear. First off any other pronounciation requires an RS, and second- what is the notability or relevance of what people in Syracuse, Boston, or Paris pronounce the Albany? Those two things must be addressed by those who think alternative pronounciations are required.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The relevance of how "Albany" is pronounced elsewhere in the state is to me self-evident: it's the state capital. By contrast, I wouldn't consider the sometimes-heard alternative pronunciation of "Syracuse" as if it were "Saracuse" to be relevant since it is not of such statewide importance, and I've never heard anyone in (at least) upstate New York say it that way, in any event. Daniel Case (talk) 19:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe say "other cities in the region", then. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, this sentence is defining that region. This is really a very mild sentence. "Albany, Schenectady, Troy, and Saratoga Springs make up the major cities within the Capital District". That's about as uncontroversially factual as you can get. upstateNYer 21:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll drop this objection, then. I do realize that, with the expansion of the area and the growth of the road system, Saratoga Springs is getting to be at least partially an Albany exurb in some ways (it's certainly within commuting distance via the Northway). But I would just note that personal experience suggests that not everyone in Saratoga Sprgins sees themselves that way.
By definition Saratoga Springs is a suburb of Albany. It is within the Albany-Schenectady-Troy MSA. It has for a LONG time been described by numerous RS's as a suburb of Albany. Its history is intimately tied to that of the region, same settler families, economy tied together, Albany's elite with summer homes there (going all the way to Mayor Schuyler in the 1700s), the city government even paid for the first fort at Saratoga to be built (today Schuylerville, also named for Albany's mayor). So its not like 'toga has ever been beyond the region.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, but the other three cities were, in addition to being close by, all industrial cities that grew as they attracted immigrants. Saratoga has always been a resort town with not that many factories, and a large seasonal population of rich people (And it isn't even the county seat, unlike the other three). Daniel Case (talk) 21:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Only when you get to that part of the story. There was no canal when the city was established. I believe the determining factor at the time of Fort Orange was that that was about as far as you could navigate upriver, and it had the high ground where a fort could be established. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, but the intro is describing Albany currently (as in, the Erie Canal has already happened). Whether or not you know of the Erie's history, it doesn't matter. If you don't know it, you find out that the city's close to the confluence of New York's two most major rivers and if you do know the history already, you see the connection. upstateNYer 21:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dropping this one, too, after thinking about it.
  • Put in a cite for the "possibly the longest-running instrument of municipal government in the Western Hemisphere" claim. It's that extraordinary, and you have cites for lesser claims in the intro as well.
Yes, but I think a claim like that should be cited if it appears in the intro. In a long article, especially as it currently is, it's unfair to the reader to make them hunt all the way through it for the relevant cite. Most people are going to want to be able to check that as soon as they read it. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still think it's overkill, but I've added it. upstateNYer 21:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's perhaps the DYK experience that informs that one. Generally, I think extraordinary claims like that should be cited in intros, as well. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
History

As a whole this section is, IMO, the biggest contributor to the article's bloat. It would benefit greatly from attention to summary style, especially since there is already a separate article on the city's history.

Another global issue is the constant chronowhiplash. Too many times we read about something, then immediately afterwards read about what has happened to it or what it has become today. That constant alternation in timeframes is, perhaps, part of the appeal of Lost, but it just makes a text narrative on the history of a city confusing. Stay in the same time frame as much as possible when writing a history.

  • Listen, I know there are many people out there that are adamantly opposed to this style of writing, but for a summary-style article, it's near impossible to get around it, and I'm convinced that it's a reader preference more than something that actually causes confusion. You want to bring up an interesting tidbit from 1908 (say, the first commercial airport in the country), but you want to relate it to the reader's experience (keep them engaged), so you mention that it eventually became Albany International Airport, something they're familiar with. Then you go right back to the 1910s or whenever the next event you were going to mention happened. That doesn't hurt the flow. What you're asking is for me to bring up all these stories, then at the end, say "oh, and remember 5 paragraphs ago when I mentioned that airport? It's now Albany International," followed by, "hey, remember when I was talking about that brewery Quinn and Nolan that opened in the 1870s? It became Beverwyck brewery and was around until 1972." That doesn't work and frankly, this is the most efficient way to get out the most information and still see a motif or theme in the writing. Otherwise you have this choppy, split up history that makes you literally have to make this gigantic jump back to the beginning from the end multiple times (as opposed to jump around a little throughout). History doesn't follow a linear path; it branches off at millions of points. These short histories are those branches, then you jump back on the time train and continue to the next station. The more I write about this, the stronger my feelings are for my style of writing short histories. upstateNYer 02:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's an accident of language, but a large part of history is story. I did the history section of Central Troy Historic District (granted, a smaller area, but it's also the history of Troy until about the mid-20th century) with that in mind. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right, each historical aspect of the timeline gets its own small story to keep you engaged. I just re-read CTHD and you do this same thing all the time. Maybe not as significantly, but I'd argue it's almost as prevalent. And, again, that's a good thing in my mind because otherwise you'd be bored out of your mind (and bouncing from the ends of sections to the beginnings to remind yourself of what the article was talking about 500 words ago). upstateNYer 21:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the section heds, it would help if you put year ranges before the time periods, with the current titles as subtitles after a colon. That seems to be becoming standard practice.

You might also want, in a history this long, to have a short prefatory graf or grafs summing it up.

Colonial and Early American times
  • I think the explanation of why Albany's charter differs from New York City's as the oldest continuous charter could be better dropped into a note, as it gets away from the narrative flow.
  • Did anything happen of consequence in Albany between the French and Indian and Revolutionary wars? Yes, the end of the French threat removed a lot of uncertainty related to the city's further existence, but what was, if any, the practical effect on the city's development. Did it grow, physically or demographically? And what about the Revolution in Albany itself? I know the city was under British occupation during the war, which the article has no excuse for not mentioning, but a sentence or two on the general attitude of its residents in the runup to the Revolution might be nice. Were they Tories, Patriots or somewhere in between? Was there anybody who tried to organize either side?
    • I'm sure many things happened, but I'm very much crunched for space and I don't remember much coverage by sources because, naturally, the further back you go, the less is remembered... that is of course unless there's a war going on. upstateNYer 00:54, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A minor tidbit: Hurley was also the state capital for the two months following the burning of Kingston during the Revolution.
I suppose you probably don't have to mention it because of it being such a brief interlude. But it's true. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is also true that Van Schaick Island was the state capital for a weekend. The question is whether it is relevant to an article about Albany.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(More to come later). Daniel Case (talk) 16:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC) Continuing ...[reply]

Transportation hub, 19th century to early 20th century

This section is sorely in need of work. It's mistitled, for one thing ... as it establishes further along, industries contributed mightily to the city's growth and development later on in this time period.

  • The opening line about Albany being a transportation hub should really be at the beginning of the Transportation section.
    • Disagree. I made a sincere effort to keep history separated from each other section. That would ruin the consistency (and create an awkward transition between past and present in that section). upstateNYer 00:12, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But Albany wasn't established to be a transportation hub. It was established as a military and political outpost. It became a transportation hub, and the history of the city at the beginning of the early 19th century should tell us why. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really getting what you mean here. There are a couple ways I can take this:
  1. You are implying Albany is still a transportation hub and want history stating it became such, it wasn't made such. I would disagree; I don't believe the city is a transportation hub any longer. Modern day transportation hubs are cities with huge airports like Chicago, Houston, Baltimore, and Newark. Railroads are falling by the wayside. There is no public transit system other than CDTA (vice NYC Subway, Boston T, Washington Metro) and no commuter train system. Albany only has 2 interstates that connects it to any other outside areas (not counting I-88, which starts at Schenectady, or 787, which is internal). The Erie Canal is for tourists now. Basically, it is a transportation hub as much as (or less than) any other city these days.
  2. You just want to reiterate that Albany was a transportation hub? In this respect, I don't understand why, since it's covered in History.
As far as I'm concerned this section is really only for reporting current facts. upstateNYer 21:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You mean transportation, right? But I find that it's not such a bad idea to reiterate stuff because you can't assume, especially with such a well-developed article, that people will read the whole thing (we have articles divided into sections with boldfaced heds for the same reason paper encyclopedias do, after all).
Albany is still a transportation hub I would argue. The two busiest exits in the entire New York State Thruway, the 13th busiest Amtrak station in the entire nation, a major seaport (Port of Albany-Rensselaer), and when it comes to cargo shipped by truck or railroad it is second only to the NY metro area in importance to the US Northeast. Yes, by the criteria of people-mover it is not as important as it use to be. But historically, how do you think Ohio, Michigan, Ill, Indiana got settled by those New Englanders? They went through Albany. Erie Canal was actually financed by Albanians (mostly the Patroon Stephen van Rensselaer) for the intent of increasing Albany's economy, had actually little to do with NYC (anachronistic historians later made it seem that it was about NYC becoming a major city in competition to Philly, Boston, and New Orleans, that was a side-effect). The first municipal airport and one of the first airports at all (less than a decade after Kitty Hawk I believe). The very first passenger steam railroad in the US. I can continue...
  • You don't need to list all the turnpikes of that era. That space would be better used telling us what effect the turnpikes had on the city's growth and development ... e.g., was land along them developed, if so how?
    • This is an example of where I have to cater to two different readers: outsiders and locals. Outsiders want general info; locals want to read about how familiar things relate to them and history. I can get rid of it, but it really adds value for a local. upstateNYer 22:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then I submit that the history article is better for that level of detail. In this article we should keep the history of Albany focused on the city itself: how it and its people became what they are today. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Didn't the convergence of turnpikes lead the city to annex territory along them? Surely it hasn't always had its current boundaries (I doubt that long western protrusion into the Pine Bush was there in the Dutch days, for one thing). There is nothing in the article about the city's territorial evolution, yet we've touched on it in the historic district articles (Clinton Avenue, especially, I think).
    • Unsure, have yet to really read about territorial evolutions. One map shows Albany as a line almost to Schenectady, but I haven't seen much reference. Then again, I can't be expected to read so many thousands of pages on the history either. I'm only human. :) Also, I personally see that as much too detailed, far more detailed than many of the details you have been citing as current issues. upstateNYer 22:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An important part of the history of a city, any city, is how it grew and what drove that growth. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very general statement and while I don't disagree with it philosophically, what you're asking for is significantly more detailed than the gist of your last sentence. Adding a sentence on it would match the generality of your latest request, but the first issue you brought up seems to want a detailed history, and if you don't want to see turnpike names, I really can't see why you would want this detailed history, too. I'm sensing a double standard. upstateNYer 21:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you don't have to give details. Just a clause to the effect that the city annexed territory along those routes as it grew (Did Albany completely absorb any surrounding towns or nearby villages like, for instance, the way Troy absorbed Lansingburgh? If so that should be in there too).
The city had the long "tail" into the Pine Bush towards Schenectady from its inception as a city through the Dongan Charter (the Liberty of Albany), lost it in 1871 to Guilderland, then reannexed about half of it making roughly the current western border in 1910. Arbor Hill, Albany, New York was the only incorporated village (and coterminous town of same name) that was ever annexed to Albany. Other hamlets of the surrounding towns have been annexed- Groesbeckville, Kenwood, Hurstville, Normansville, and North Albany being the most notable/populated. Most recent annexation was in the 1960s along New Scotland Road. (Selfpromotion- I wrote every single article I linked to in this post).Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Care to come up with a concise sentence or two that covers this, with RSs? upstateNYer 13:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote a paragraph with sources regarding annexations, put it on Upstater's talk page. Hope he or someone can pare it down and incorporate it.Camelbinky (talk) 18:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Added in the respective sections of the history summary. upstateNYer 19:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto with the railroads. Yes, the D&H and later the NYCRR being based in the city is important, but I'd rather read about the effect of the railroads on the city and its neighborhoods.
  • And ditto with the Erie Canal. Although you did, with the Lumber District, address some of that.
  • Also, since the city's population was growing, what kind of people came to the city when, and where did they settle? Mansion Historic District notes that that neighborhood was the first stopping point for many of the city's immigrant groups. We should have some of that detail.
    • The best I think I can do, because trying to weave it into the history section will be difficult, is to add more detail to the new immigration section under Demographics. McEneny is a good source for which neighborhoods supported which groups, but since the groups all moved over the hundreds of years, that could really lengthen that section. You're already concerned about length and at that point I'd be concerned about summary style. Having just read over that section of McEneny though, I don't remember seeing anything about Mansion District; I also don't really want to start depending on NRHP nominations because, quite frankly, they often contradict one another because different authors use different sources and don't consider each others' nominations when writing their own. upstateNYer 02:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not suggesting you cite the NRHP nom, but they do give their own sources, usually, which maybe you have used. Daniel Case (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • From this section, you'd think nothing happened in Albany during the 19th century except the development of transportation networks and industrialization. Were there any political or cultural events or trends of significance during this period?
During the 19th century... not really. Banking happened too. Albany well known for banking during that time, it was the Charlotte, North Carolina of its day. The Bank of Albany financed the Erie Canal (today one of many ancestors to Bank of America). Albany is not well-known for culture through most of its history it was an industrial city. Despite New England's insistance on writing history the Industrial Revolution in the US actually started in the Capital District (more in Troy than in Albany though), industry and transportation dominate any history of Albany in that period. Back then Albany and the surrounding area dominated just about every major industry- steel, textile, lumber, even manufactoring of pianos and printing of books.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be continued ... Daniel Case (talk) 18:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Corning administration to the present day

This section, I think, has the most problems.

Most significant is POV, which crops up a lot here. It may be the result of not making it clear enough that someone else's opinion is being cited, or words to avoid, but it needs to be dealt with.

    • I can't do much about that. There's only one book out there about Corning and McEneny's book (he's a self-proclaimed idolizer of Corning) literally has nothing overall good to say about him. Not to say he badmouths him, he just doesn't list anything that was an absolute positive for the mayor - except for keeping the peace and the status quo. Basically, he was loved by the people at the time because few of the people remembered a mayor other than him. And, as a politician, he didn't do a bad job, so by default, he did a good job. I'm going by the sources, and this overview is what the sources give me. upstateNYer 21:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Erastus Corning 2nd, arguably Albany's most notable mayor ..." Who argues this? It shouldn't be Wikipedia (I mean, I agree with the sentiment but the article can't be the origin).
    • On the other hand, Wikipedia making flat-out statements like that is worse. The source argues it (hence the inline citation). Everyone else agrees. But that's a hefty statement to make that would be coming very close to the line with respect to WP:NOR, WP:POV, and WP:V. upstateNYer 21:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the least you should do is put the quote in the footnote. Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC) Addedndum: And put the footnote itself at the word "arguably" (This is something I did myself with "uncharacteristically" here.[reply]
  • "While Corning brought stability to the office of mayor, even those that idolize him cannot come up with a sizable list of "major concrete Corning achievements." "Those that idolize" sounds slightly mocking. Can we just say "his defenders"?
    • Definitely not the intention, and actually I took that word from the source. Defenders sounds too much like he's on... the defense, which he isn't. Is supporters better? "Fans" is actually a better word for the situation, but I don't find it professional enough to use. upstateNYer 21:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a lot better than "fanboys" :-). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If positive things MUST be found to balance out the portrayal of Albany's "Mayor for life" then I propose lifting from Albany Pine Bush that he was responsible for the largest purchases of land for that preserve (and conversly for most of the destructive development on the parts he didnt purchase), that he pushed for the state museum at the ESP, his environmentalism before it was "cool" to be "green" (olive tree's at Steven's farm with the intent of using them as biofuel for city cars, a fleet of electric cars, basically golf carts, Albanians could borrow from the city to run local errands, a "people mover" on State Street, and other examples), he appointed Don Rittner as the first city archeaologist of any US city and personally funded Don's excavation of the Isaac Truax Tavern.Camelbinky (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kudos, however, for coming up with that picture of the Egg under construction (Even if it had been published somewhere at the time, if it didn't have a copyright notice it fell into the PD anyway, so I don't think there's a licensing issue). And good noting the way Corning backhandedly saved a lot of Albany's old buildings, as many others have (Maybe you could find a source for the informed speculation that he and O'Connell didn't want the Title I money since the FHA et al had a large say in who got it, thereby bypassing and diluting the machine's power.

    But a mayor's accomplishments, that line in The Wire notwithstanding, can consist of more than just getting or keeping crime down and "building something nice downtown". Did Corning have any non-concrete accomplishments? Did he reform or overhaul city government? Create new programs? Maintain fiscal stability? I think we're piling on him a little too much here. It's a little unfair for our article to quote other people complaining (creatively, I grant) he didn't build anything, then say "But that worked out in the end".

    • I did read that about the FHA and the machine, but if you're concerned with POV in this section, this statement would definitely be the worst offender: "Rumor even had it that Corning and the machine specifically turned away FHA funds because it would have caused them to lose at least some control over the city, namely who got those funds." That's almost libelous (stealing from the public good?) and something I'd like to leave in the book.

      Nowhere does it say that building something is a necessity for a good mayor. However, I think most people can agree that progress is one of those things. He and his people bought votes, loyalty, etc with cash, jobs, and influence, and not much happened while he was mayor. Which is the way he wanted it. Every day was the same for him. He'd get to the office in the morning, dictate 25 or so letters (on a type writer, even in the early 80s), take a trip up to O'Connell's house to "get his orders", come back down to meet with people, go to lunch at the Fort Orange Club, continue his day at the office or a ribbon cutting or something, then typically attend a special event for dinner before starting it all again the next day. He was the definition of habit, and it was like that... for 40 years. In that time period, he was directly response for almost nothing progressive. Buildings? Nope. Water? Nope, they still don't even have fluoride in the public water there, which started with him and his being scared of big brother. Transportation? Nope, he sold the city's stake in the airport. Some of his last words included that all he wanted his legacy to be was to be known as someone that had Rockefeller by the balls. And he did, but that's a pretty sad legacy to want. And, not to press the point more than I need to, but I'm going by the best available sources. I can't squeeze blood from a stone or unwritten text from a book. This is what the sources say (or don't say). upstateNYer 22:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, I appreciate being limited by one's sources (I wonder if he also resisted urban renewal because he and/or his machine cronies weren't about to sacrifice their favorite watering holes to progress). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also think the history of the construction of Empire State Plaza could be trimmed. I learned a little more from this one than I did in the actual article (and there is a contradiction there ... that article says the state took title in 2001 but it took some years to work out the paperwork for the formal title transfer).

    And maybe it's just me, but as I'm sure you're aware there is a lot of criticism of the aesthetics of the buildings and their effect on Albany's cityscape. We ought to quote some. Maybe I should get myself quoted in some reliable source saying one of my favorite criticisms, that driving up to them across the Dunn Bridge makes me feel like I'm on the Millenium Falcon being tractor-beamed into the Death Star (Some resourceful YouTuber should make a video juxtaposing the two. With the music playing). But anyway ...

    • Fixed contradiction. This is another example of "more detail/less detail". Which do you want? This is a difference between what you would want to read versus what "i" would want to read. I did add that the building was controversial, but that's in the architecture section. Also, there is clearly a generational divide between those that didn't grow up with the Plaza always being there and those that did. While many will argue that the architecture sucks (and I don't fully disagree, but it really is kind of benign architecture; other than being big, it's not nearly as bad as, say, RPI's library), the complex is undoubtedly what makes identifying Albany possible. It's the icon; the "weeny", as Disney put it. Albany would barely be identifiable. upstateNYer 22:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We could just, again, add a clause to the effect that the architecture of ESP has been criticized with the specifics in a note or footnote (I don't consider those to be bloating the article). Daniel Case (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll see if Diana Waite (Albany Architecture) disses the architecture. If so, I'll mention that critics aren't thrilled and just cite her. That works for me. upstateNYer 19:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More to come after I actually go create some content, and maybe call it a night ... Daniel Case (talk) 04:19, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bodnotbod's review
  • Leaning heavily towards support:
  • SUPPORT - An inspiring article; it made me think "I hope I can see an article like this about the London borough I live in one day" which I hope will be seen as quite a compliment.
  • Proof read done: - I fixed two or three minor issues; rest looks marvellous.
  • Comment: - I'm viewing the article in the Chrome browser. The text at the top of the screen consisting of the information that this is a FAC and some geo-tagging stuff overlaps; two lots of text on top of each other. I don't really know if this is fixable by an editor - it may be a browser issue. I thought I'd best note it.
  • Comment: - Section: Transportation hub, 19th century..., paragraph 4 - text refers to a "riveted customer base". I guess this means a customer base that is resident there for the long term rather than riveted in the sense of engaged in a passionate manner as one might be watching a film? At any rate, it seems a funny turn of phrase. I'm not sure what is meant, so perhaps a better word could be chosen.
  • Comment: - Section: Transportation hub, 19th century..., paragraph 4 - text says "falling victim to unionization". Now I'll openly admit to being signed up to left-wing politics before observing that this rather seems to demonise unions. Was it a cut and dried case of the unions forcing the industry to collapse or was it more nuanced? Unions may pressure owners of capital out of business but it could also be the case that employers are so unwilling to compromise that they pull out their investment. So I don't argue that this is an incorrect characterisation, just one that perhaps needs to be looked at. In short, is it neutral?
  • Comment: - Section: Demographics, paragraph 2 - text says "...two years before Boston did". Perhaps because I'm British it wasn't clear to me why Boston is brought in here for comparison. Is it because Boston is commonly, erroneously thought to have been the first, so this is a sort of bid to put the record straight? Whatever the reasons for mentioning Boston, perhaps they could be made explicit, briefly.
    • Boston is known for being very Irish. I wish there was an Irish in Boston article I could link to there. In writing an article about a local city, you have to cater to the masses. Outsiders want general info, and locals want small tidbits they can say they learned. This is an example of a small detail. I think it's important to leave there. upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: - Section: Politics, paragraph 1 - text says "in many instances votes were bought". I think most readers will go "ooh!" at that point. However we are given no further information. We do, of course, strive for brevity but I feel this claim leaves the reader intensely curious left as it is. As a previous reviewer has warned that the article is too long, I assure you I don't want to be responsible for a whole new chunk of material. But I feel at least "bought by who?" and "to what extent?" could be answered without even starting a new sentence.
  • Article v FA Criteria
    • 1(a) - well written: VERY GOOD - It's difficult to give an article on a city the same sense of life that one might a person or a fiction. But I found this pretty engaging. I thought it was a place I might quite like to live.
    • 1(b) - comprehensive: COMMENT - There's no crime information/stats.
    • 1(c) - well researched: VERY GOOD w/ caveat - I bring to the subject no prior knowledge, so whether exemplary sources have gone unplundered I am not equipped to say. But there's a wide range of sources here and the use of inline citations is great, though I confess I haven't followed any; a technical friend of mine has encouraged me to keep link-following to a minimum until I further protect my computer.
    • 1(d) - neutrality: QUESTIONABLE - absence of crime section and glossing over of vote buying makes me wonder if there's a downside to living in Albany that has gone unexpressed. I wouldn't want to see a Criticism section but it does appear that everything's rosey in Albany. Is that true?
      • Not all rosy, but I personally don't think there are any major aspects of the city that downright suck. I've made reference to low-income, high-poverty areas in the most PC way I can, which acknowledges that the area isn't all middle and upper class residents. upstateNYer 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • 1(e) - stability: EXCELLENT - well for the last two months at least, which is as far back as I've checked.
    • 2(a) - lead: VERY GOOD - difficult article to write a lead for and I think it's done very well. It's long but I think it needs to be.
    • 2(b) - structure: VERY GOOD - I haven't reviewed many articles about places, so I don't know if there's a best-practice here but as I read through it all seemed to flow along quite happily. I don't see any need to switch sections around.
    • 2(c) - consistent citations: NOT CHECKED - I lack familiarity with how these things are done, so can't comment.
    • 3 - Media: NOT CHECKED - I lack familiarity with licensing issues.
    • 4 - Length: VERY GOOD (IMO) - I know the previous reviewer disagrees and I'm also aware that we do have guidelines about length which I assume this article has contravened. Personally I found the length a good reading length; I didn't feel the article dwelled on anything unnecessarily. I bow to peer pressure if article size is an issue as we don't want to alienate our bandwidthedly challenged readers.
  • In closing, sorry to give the editors so much to think about, especially straight after the previous reviewer's call for great changes. I would re-assert, that I think this is a great article; the unfortunate thing with reviews is that they focus on problems rather than the 99% very-goodness. So congrats to the editors for their work thus far and I certainly see this on the Main Page in the not too distant future. --bodnotbod (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Size/loadtime is a problem; I attempted to do cleanup and MOS fixes, and found it took me almost two minutes (on a fast connection) to do one edit. Please find a way to reduce either the size or the loadtime of the article, so our readers can access it. The section "Current overview" needs to be renamed per WP:MOSDATE#Precise language. Further reading and External links look bloated, but I didn't attempt any further review because of the load time problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Doing a pretty substantial trimming job at the moment. upstateNYer 00:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, I've done a good amount of trimming, but then I realized that much of the article's size comes from the references, presumably from urls. So I removed all the urls that linked to specific pages of books on Google Books. Unhappily, that change was only 3kB. I'm realizing that all the newspaper article links are probably the major source of the size problem. So the issue is: The content is currently being limited by technical limitations. Is it kosher to go through and start removing Times Union links? After all, the newspaper does have a hard copy of course, and users can always search the archives (as I did), though admittedly that's a lot of work. But I feel like I'm being dropped between a rock and a hard place because of technical limitations. What is your view on this? upstateNYer 02:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't recall ever seeing an image KB size so high-- the load time is likely also related to images:
File size: 446 kB
Prose size (including all HTML code): 118 kB
References (including all HTML code): 115 kB
Wiki text: 167 kB
Prose size (text only): 58 kB (9625 words) "readable prose size"
References (text only): 27 kB
Images: 1039 kB

It's not obvious to me that all of those images are adding to the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, my "page size" tool doesn't show the image size. Would it be because most of the images in the article are high-resolution files? Or does that not matter? Plus we have two wide images (both of which I think are necessary). I'm not experienced enough with page size to know what's going on. upstateNYer 04:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm using the page size script; regardless, the images are cluttering the article, and don't all seem necessary, and prose size is quite high (can better use of summary style be used?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Most are necessary, I think. I'll see what I can cut. And I'm still in the middle of trimming the prose. upstateNYer 04:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—I reviewed this article at GA, and found it highly comprehensive, well-written, well-researched, and even neutral once the part about whether Albany was the oldest European settlement in the Thirteen Colonies was clarified. I have no hesistation in recommending it for featured article status. I personally did not have an issue reading or editing the article when reviewing at GAN, so I have no concerns on that issue. –Grondemar 03:43, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't decipher the citations; the short citations listed don't seem to correspond to any entires in the Bibiliography, and the Biblio isn't alphabetical and doesn't seem to have authors. Who is McEneny? Who is Grondahl? I was looking to check the "arguably most notable mayor" (what is the exact wording from the source), and wasn't able to find that source! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is text sandwiched between images in several places (see WP:MOS#Images), and several images that could be moved to daughter articles-- the article is still so slow to load (even on a fast connection) that working on it is difficult, and most surely the images-- along with the article length-- are contributing to the loadtime problems. I still don't see McEneny in the Biblio, and some of the page ranges are wrong (see WP:ENDASH)-- there's still a lot going on in this article, and the review is only a few days old. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I only see two potential places where there could be sandwiching and it doesn't look like it would be that bad, even in a wide window. Plus, there's not really much I can do about it. I'll look into ENDASH. Where is that script? Somebody usually does that for me. There must only be one or two that are a problem because the script was run earlier. And McEneny is in the Biblio. I just confirmed it. upstateNYer 14:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also not experiencing a very slow experience since I replaced all the citation templates. It's no slower for me than editing Oakwood Cemetery (Troy, New York), my other FA. upstateNYer 15:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Chabad-Lubavitch is redirect. Have you checked for others? — Rlevse • Talk • 01:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't. Is there a tool? Granted, Chabad is not one of the ones I would be very knowledgeable of (and, oddly, the page is Chabad but the bolded title is the same we use in the article). Almost all of the rest I would, and I'd probably use the correct name. That said, I do know that City (New York) is a redirect, as are many Albany street names (e.g., State Street (Albany, New York) so it's easier for us writers to link to it rather than constantly copy+pasting Administrative divisions of New York#City or Streets of Albany, New York#State Street. upstateNYer 01:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a dab tool but not a redirect tool that I know of. Please fix the redirs you know of. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I only know of the ones I just gave as examples, but they were made specifically to make linking easier (especially for the situation where one of those subsections becomes its own article in the future). upstateNYer 01:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Make linking easier? — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It's easier for me to remember City (New York) than Administrative divisions of New York#City. The latter always requires a copy+paste because I don't remember it off the top of my head. Same goes for the streets. The redirects bring you straight to the section of the article. upstateNYer 01:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects should be avoided, when you come across one, just copy it and use [[[Administrative divisions of New York#City|city]]. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I 1) have never heard this before (and it is not anywhere to be found in WP:WIAFA) and 2) find WP:NOTBROKEN to be pretty clear, stating this is unnecessary. If this is anything more than a personal preference, please point me to the source essay. upstateNYer 02:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Checking back in, the article is still slowloading and difficult to edit, and I don't see progress since I last lodged this concern:

File size: 467 kB
Prose size (including all HTML code): 117 kB
References (including all HTML code): 116 kB
Wiki text: 166 kB
Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9565 words) "readable prose size"
References (text only): 27 kB
Images: 967 kB

Some of the images are not enhancing the text and could be moved to daughter articles, and more aggressive use of summary style is needed. The length of this FAC suggests the article might need additional work once it is trimmed; it's not productive to work on MOS and other issues when the article is too large to edit (and I do not have a slow connection). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:35, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) I'm continuing work on summary. Can you specifically call out which images are not enhancing? I think I've removed 5-7 now, and an article on a whole city can only do so much justice if it's at least somewhat illustrated. I see we disagree on this, but the article is now severely lacking in images in my opinion. As for the size/connection/etc., I'm not seeing much of an issue. That {{vcite}} switch made a huge difference, and I don't have a notably fast connection (and, add to that, I'm on that connection through wireless, which slows it that much more). But I have cut this article more than 1000 words and shrunk the file size 30% since the FAC started. The further I go, the more skeletal this article gets. And skeletal≠WP:SS. But I will continue on trimming details. I just wasn't around much this weekend. upstateNYer 01:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have to agree with Sandy. 170K is WAY too big. 100K is about the max any prose article should be — Rlevse • Talk • 01:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, I understand where you're coming from, and you can agree all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there is obvious precedent. And the 170 is for wikitext, not prose. I can't help it if I'm being limited technically because I have a lot of references. This is shorter than many other FAs, but many of those link to books and have simple Author (XXXX), p. XXX type citations. See Ming Dynasty, for example: almost 14,000 words, and 137kB of wikitext. No newspaper references though (which, in Albany, require a long url, repetitive publisher and work fields, etc.); Byzantine Empire is another good example. upstateNYer 01:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying a city that's a few hundred years old warrants being longer and having more refs than an article on an empire that's thousands of years old? You're obviously very thorough but some of this really could be moved to sub articles and then you can make FAs of them too. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not longer than those. Wikipedia offers a great opportunity to get a lot of information in for smaller subjects. Where the authors of Ming Dynasty might feel cramped by the amount of space they had to write in, the writers of a reasonably small city in New York shouldn't because the subject is much more specific and allows for greater detail, especially for the smaller population that can appreciate the added detail (and if I had 14,000 words as my quota for this article, I wouldn't feel at all cramped for space). While the article must cater to the masses as a general overview, minor details sprinkled here and there are what make the article interesting for a local to read (otherwise it will just be all information that they already know). Anyway, the subject does not dictate the length. Because every article on Wikipedia is theoretically only limited to WP:SIZERULE, that space is able to become more detailed and specific for a smaller subject (and the readable prose size here is 57kB, which is clearly a grey area for breaking apart per SIZERULE). As for breaking off, I've done that for Architecture of Albany, New York and Neighborhoods of Albany, New York. Like I said, I'll continue to whittle this down; I'm doing the best I can. IMO the article has already lost a great deal of its charm. Isn't there a guideline out there stating that editors needn't worry about the performance of pages assuming the content is reasonable, that it is assumed that the technology will become good enough soon enough to cover the issue? upstateNYer 02:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ming Dynasty did not pass FAC at that size; it grew post-FAC, and it doesn't have almost 1MB in images slowing down its loadtime. Also see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The fact is, I can't edit this article, which means other editors can't either. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So then what does that say about other FAs? Cleveland, for example, has 29 images not counting small flags or portal images; Albany has the same number now (I can't see what the size is because the "Page size" tool doesn't report image size counts outside of Internet Explorer, I guess, and I have a Mac, which doesn't run IE any longer). Cleveland is 437kB (vs. Albany's 464). These are comparable numbers here, and one can "get away with it" while the other can't? Not to start a philosophical debate, but it seams all that matters is that the snapshot of an article at the time of FAC needs to be good enough to pass, then the floodgates can open after? But it's not the snapshot that readers see! That's not to say I'm trying to create more work for FAC reviewers—I respect that it's a strained community—but something has to be done for these older articles then if you plan to hold such standards to new candidates. And not to press too far, but I've had the Guild and a GA reviewer—as well as regular contributors—go thru the article with no editing complaints. I will work on trimming this early this week, but it's more than disheartening that other FAs don't meet the same requirements that I'm being asked to. Requirements that aren't even written down anywhere. upstateNYer 02:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cleveland loads fine for me (it has less images), but it is also significantly larger than what passed its last review. Again, see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and WP:FAR if you see significant deficiences in Cleveland (I haven't checked it). Anyone can pass a GA, and anyone can sign up for the Guild of Copyeditors-- this is FAC, where review is more stringent (depending on the reviewers you get at each place, though). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cleveland has the same # of images! And when I brought up the Guild and GA, I was talking about the fact that there were no complaints from anybody—other than you specifically—on load time. Just to be clear. upstateNYer 03:06, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(e/c) Just caught your "otherstuff" reference. I've read this before; I'm not a new editor here. You're implicitly telling me you believe the comparisons are invalid. I wouldn't have made them if I believed that to be true. These are very much valid arguments. Each FA is to be held to the same standard. That's where we're talking apples-to-apples. As the guideline clearly states, "...these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes." While openly noting that "'other stuff existing is not a reason to keep/create/etc.'", that other stuff isn't just stuff, they're FAs; they're the cream of our crop. If you want to avoid article creep because you're low on review resources, protect the pages at that snapshot in time. Then you won't get these comparisons in the future. Simple fix. upstateNYer 03:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to chime in with an observation about the push to limit the size of this article and the photos. This article is getting attacked basically for being complete! The very definition of an FA is that it completly covers all aspects of the topic, nothing missing. Yes, summary style with spin-off articles are wanted and needed. But in the end, you still have to give Upstater and the rest of us leeway to summarize completly a city that is 400 years old and has contributed greatly to every aspect of US and world history/economy/transportation etc in those 400 years. The comparision to Cleveland sucks because, well comparatively (and no offence) Cleveland sucks compared to the achievements of Albany. It's younger, it has less history and importance towards US and world history, those are facts; there's simply less to state in an article. Is Cleveland more important than Albany today, oh G-d yes it is, Cleveland crushes Albany if you look at only present-day. Personally- if making this article an FA means it gutted and becomes an article that is pretty much useless then I encourage Upstater to make the article what he thinks looks good and forget the FA. I'd rather have a great article with no title than a fancy title that required making the article worse. Do you see the trees or the forest?Camelbinky (talk) 03:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I've heard that Cleveland Rocks. upstateNYer 03:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An article on a city can be complete and compact (See WP:SIZERULE). Bratislava is a good bit older, more populous and, I daresay, more important than Albany in the overall global scheme of things (after all, it's a national capital, not just a major political subdivision capital). The current version of the article, which has been featured for over two years, is 96K; the version that got the FA star was 86K. If we want a model for an article on a city that has retained its featured status (look at FAR; it's scary how many city articles (New York City included) have lost the star) I suggest that that's a good one to emulate. Daniel Case (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawing the nomination
I don't believe I can make the requested cuts in good conscience. Just too much is removed from the article. Thank you for the reviews. upstateNYer 01:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Karanacs already archived the nomination several hours ago; see WP:FAC/ar. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Noted. I thought closed noms get the blue background placed around them telling users not to add anything more, and since that was missing, assumed this was still open. upstateNYer 02:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It will be, once the bot goes through. As a side note, Bratislava has significantly deteriorated since its promotion, and might warrant a visit to WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't that good to begin with. upstateNYer 03:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [28].

Akira Kurosawa

dylanexpert: Dylanexpert (talk) 10:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... this year is Akira Kurosawa's (1910-1998) centennial year. It is also the 60th Anniversary (August 25th) of the Tokyo premiere of Rashomon, the film that opened Western eyes (and Western film markets) to the cinema of Japan and, by extension, Asian cinema as a whole. This year is also the 25th Anniversary of the premiere of his final masterpiece, Ran.

Kurosawa needs no introduction to anyone who knows or cares about the art of film. A website, They Shoot Pictures, Don't They (TSPDT), that gauges the reputations of films and filmmakers, ranks him as seventh among all directors.

This article consistently maintains a neutral point-of-view. Various views of individual films are expressed in the article with which the nominator does not agree, in the interest of presenting different facets of opinion on a work. In addition, a concise Criticisms section is included that, again, contains some negative judgments about the subject with which the nominator does not agree.

With my co-editor, Vili, we have made certain that the article is well-written and comprehensive, and all assertions have been supported by correctly-formatted citations.

Every effort has been made to make the article as brief as possible. Everything from the "Life and career" section has been eliminated that is not relevant to the main theme: the development of the subject as an artist and his struggle to realize his creative vision. Several tables and lists have been taken out of the main page and given separate articles. But Kurosawa's life was, like his films, an epic story and, as all 30 of his films are extant, a cursory summary of his output, which would be appropriate for other, less prominent, subjects, was simply not possible in this case.

As articles longer than this one (e.g. Michael Jackson) have been chosen as Featured Articles, we feel that those who will decide whether this article deserves featured status will take the importance of the subject into account.

We would very much like this article to be chosen as a Featured Article soon so that it can selected as Today's Featured Article on September 10th, the 59th Anniversary of the date that Rashomon won the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival, establishing Japanese cinema -- and Kurosawa -- as a major force. We will, of course, given time constraints, understand if this is not possible, but this is our current goal. Dylanexpert (talk) 10:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

September 10th is only eight days away, and Raul is likely to schedule the TFA for that sooner; it is rare for an article to be promoted that fast. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sept 10 TFA is scheduled. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Per the MOS, link titles shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they re in the original.
  • Current ref 241 ... this is a newspaper article, and should be formatted as such, not as you currently have it "Eugene Register-Guard..." Further bit here - newspaper title should be italicized (use work field, not publisher, in cite news template). Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 251 (Battle beyond the stars..) is lacking a publisher. Also what makes this a reliable source? Further note here, IMDB is only really reliable for very basic facts about the film, which this is not being used to reference. You need to have a better source. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 252 (Powers...) lacks a publisher. Also what makes this a reliable source?
  • Current ref 253 (Skiyaki Western...) lacks a publisher. Likewise what makes this reliable? See note above. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 254 (The Clone Wars..) lacks a publisher
  • Current ref 256 (TSDT...) lacks a publisher
  • Likewise ref 257 (IMDB)...
  • Likewise ref 258 (WEBSITE). And it should have a better title, I'd think
  • Likewise 259 (KUROSAWA FILM STUDIO)...
  • Likewsie 261 (AFC...).
  • Likewise 262 (ONline MBA...)
  • Likewise 263 (FILMS...)
  • Likewise 266 (AK100..)
  • What makes http://akirakurosawa.info/ a reliable source?
  • We don't use abbreviations such as Univ. or UP in our references. Consistency is important, you have Univ. Press of Mississippi and University Press of Mississippi, be consistent.
  • Likewise, consistency on using place of publication on books, either use them always or not at all.
  • Suggest culling some of the external links - especially any that are used as refs (No need for the IMDB links or the TSPDT link, as you're using them as refs) External links should ADD information not contained in the article, not just exist as a place to add information.
  • I'd also question the lack of use of some of the further reading. Just from the title, I'd think the Martinez would be very useful and helpful to replace some of the dodgy refs I question above. I'd also think the Sorenson would be vital for aspects of his career. And many of the others would be great for themes and motifs over his career.
  • One further comment. For the sheer size of the article, I'd think the lead would be ... beefier. It really is skimpy for the proze size of the article text.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further bits. You misunderstood, I'm not questioning the further reading items inclusion, I'm questioning why they aren't used as sources. Several of the sources questioned above on reliablity need addressing still. And you can drop locations from the book refs if you like, that's one valid option. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I got it. And you have a good idea. So I took the Martinez book out of Further reading and put it in sources. Then, for Battle Beyond the Stars, I removed the IMDB reference and replaced it with a Martinez reference. So that's two issues solved. I changed the reference to the Eugene Register-Guard (newspaper) so that now it reads correctly in italics. I dropped locations from the book references... though frankly, it still seems silly and totally unnecessary to me. I eliminated the whole passage about the "Sukiyaki Western" (which I never really felt comfortable with including anyway) so questions about the reliability of its source are no longer relevant. "What makes http://akirakurosawa.info/ a reliable source?" - I really don't know how to answer that question. What is the standard of reliability? You, subjectively, say that IMDB is not a reliable source; I, equally subjectively, say that it (mostly) is, or at least is more accurate and complete than any other film reference source that I've ever encountered... though I eliminated the IMDB reference that you were dissatisfied with. So what is the objective standard to this very subjective question? I will elaborate on this issue on your talk page. Dylanexpert (talk) 17:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. The best method is a mix of all of the above. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Also note that since that dispatch was written, the standards for FA have changed to require "high quality" sources. IMDB isn't just me, it's a consensus from the WP:RSN, which is a good spot to go to for questions about sources. As for the locations, it's a consistency issue, making the citations consistent with all the other citations used in the article. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:35, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for http://akirakurosawa.info, I probably cannot call it "reliable" according to Wikipedia's stringent standards, as the site's own About page modestly asserts that it is "not definitive." However, there is no such authoritative source that I can find that "proves" the assertions on the "On home video" paragraph. The vast majority of sites that mention Kurosawa DVDs want the reader to buy them, or are Top 10 lists, etc. I have always been uncomfortable anyway with the mention of all the DVD brand names in the para. So I propose just editing the paragraph down to the first two sentences, "All thirty films directed by Kurosawa are available on DVD worldwide, most of them from more than one distributor and in more than one region code. His movies are also becoming increasingly available on Blu-ray." These are simply facts: there is no single scholarly source in the Internet that "proves" them. Is this satisfactory to you?
It's perfectly acceptable for something like this to use Amazon or a similar large retailer to show that the DVDs are available. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have made the change and saved it. As far as I can see, all your objections (except debatable aesthetic ones) have now been addressed. Thanks for your input! Dylanexpert (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Very nice to see an in-depth article on such an important director. I'm finding style issues here. Just the top for the moment:

  • What's your date style? You use day-month-year in the first graf and infobox, but month-day-year in the second graf. Choose and apply consistently throughout the entire article.
  • "Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Kurosawa released approximately a film a year." Clumsy verb. Studios release films. Distributors release films. Directors direct films or make them.
  • "American AsianWeek magazine". Magazine names are italicized, but what is the name of this magazine? American AsianWeek magazine? AsianWeek magazine? If the latter, do you perhaps want to refer to it as "the American magazine AsianWeek"?
  • The use of spaced em-dashes is not considered proper here per our Manual of Style. Preferred style is unspaced em-dashes; spaced en-dashes are an acceptable alternative. Choose either and apply consistently throughout.
  • The caption of the infobox image is truly bizarre: "Kurosawa demonstrating swordsmanship to Toshirō Mifune (not pictured), probably on set of Sanjuro (1962)." So we know the identity of a party not pictured in the image, but we don't know when it was taken? Really? Unless this is a crop of a larger image showing Mifune (which the file page does not indicate), that is hardly credible.—DCGeist (talk) 06:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responses to Comments: Thank you both for your input!
To Ealdgyth: 1) Removed ALL CAPS in those two cases, which I believe were the only ones. 2) The Eugene Register-Guard reference was a news, not a web ref: I have made the change (thanks for catching that). 3) The refs that were publisher-less have had publishers added. 4) "Web Site" is the title of Toho's foreign-language (Japanese) site, and the title just is what it is: I can't arbitrarily change it. 5) Consistently changed references to remove "Univ." and spell out "University". 6) Many books don't list place of publication on their title or copyright pages, and I'm not about to make guesses: I believe location must be optional in a book reference, not mandatory. 7) From the external references, I deleted the IMDB and TSPDT links, as you suggested. 7) The "Further reading" section was very carefully considered: the Shakespeare books (by Buchanan, Davies and Leonard) have significant content about Kurosawa because of the latter's Shakespeare-inspired films, Throne of Blood and Ran (much of the information that allowed me to include the Shakespeare volumes came from the website http://akirakurosawa.info, which is *not* a superficial fansite, but engages in significant scholarly inquiry, and is thus authoritative); Noel Burch has a very significant chapter on Kurosawa which was nonetheless not used in any of my references; and the appropriateness of the Cowie and Dresser references is self-explanatory: therefore, I am retaining all the volumes cited in "Further reading". 8) As far as the introductory section is concerned, I'm sorry, but I have a pet peeve against articles that contain intro sections that I think are too long; as a devoted reader of Wikipedia, when the article is as detailed as mine is, I don't want the intro section to be long as well; I want it to be concise and succinct. Every single statement made in those three paragraphs is one that no reputable film scholar would dispute, yet they are all later explained in the main text and supported with references for non-scholars. I don't think that section should be "beefier": I think it's just right.
To DCGeist: 1) Made dating consistent in article and infobox (Month-Day-Year). 2) Changed "released a film a year" to "directed a film a year". 3) Removed "American" from "American AsianWeek"; 4) For the file page of the photo used in the infobox, I changed the summary (under "Portion used") to make clear that Mifune was in the uncropped version of the photo. (No, I don't know the exact date on which the picture was taken, but I can tell from internal evidence -- the age and costumes of the participants in the full photo and other photos obviously taken during the same shoot, the appearance of the set, etc -- that the picture had to have been taken in the early 1960's, with Sanjuro rather than Yojimbo the more likely film, and I gave the release date of the former film, 1962, as the last plausible year in which it could have been taken.) Dylanexpert (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images: Many image issues. Just looking at the first half of the article:

Comment: The Reputation among filmmakers (and arguably the Homages and allusions) subsection, as well as the Legacy section are currently grab bags of stubby, bullet-point-like grafs. They need to be reworked for more flowing prose.—DCGeist (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox: Due to the impending merge of {{Infobox actor}}, you may want to switch to {{Infobox person}} now and make the most of the extra fields in that template. PC78 (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I feel as confused and frustrated as if I were invited on public property and then arrested for trespassing. The whole purpose of a Commons section is to include in it images that anybody can take and put in their articles without challenge. If I use the Commons section and am challenged for it, what’s the point? At the same time, I can see your reasoning that these particular images, which might at first have seemed to be “free,” may not be. So my argument would be that, because of their ambiguity, perhaps I might keep the images unless they are challenged by someone claiming to hold the copyright for them. If you don’t accept that, then I will “rehost” the images as you indicated… but you will have to let me know how to do that.
For the images of Akira Kurosawa himself (there are actually two disputable images, not one) I grant that these are probably not free images, but again, they shouldn’t have been in the Commons in the first place. (Who’s minding the store anyway?) I’ve contacted the New York Public Library website from which the images originated and asked if I could use them in my article without a fee. They said that they did not require a fee, but that I have to find out about copyrights by third parties. So I guess I will have to rehost these also as Fair Use images.
The Yojimbo and Red Beard images already have fair use rationales for the articles in which they originally appeared. Do I have to write a whole other rationale for *my* article?
I will rewrite the rationale for the Tora! Tora! Tora! image to make it a bit more detailed.
I would argue that the “Reputation among other filmmakers” subsection represents a nice change of pace from the “flowing” style of the rest of the article. And I believe you exaggerate somewhat when you describe the whole thing as “currently grab bags of stubby, bullet-point-like grafs.” For example, the Robert Altman paragraph “flows” fairly well. However, in a couple of instances (Spielberg and Scorsese), the grafs are not written as complete sentences, so I will change those.
Since you used the word “arguably” in your description of the “Homages and allusions” subsection, I am taking that as a subjective judgment and will keep that part as is.  : - )
Forgot to sign. Dylanexpert (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's policies on image use and non-free content can lead to frustration, but they are policies and we're all obliged to follow them. Especially if you want your work recognized as among Wikipedia's best, you should be aware that it's your responsibility to familiarize yourself with those policies and what they require from you. Here are the two basic pages: Wikipedia:Image use policy and Wikipedia:Non-free content—the second is a guideline page, but it incorporates the full text of our non-free-content policy, while providing more detail and examples.
I hope you've gotten over the shock of realizing that the Commons, though a wonderful resource, is not an example of perfection in this universe. While the vast majority of items there are indeed free, it is a volunteer site just like this (the Commons is organizationally related to Wikipedia via the Wikimedia Foundation, but it is by no means a "section" of Wikipedia), and people make mistakes—there are all sorts of items there that don't belong there. (Sometimes that's not due to a mistake by the volunteer who introduced the image—copyright laws and interpretations of those laws can change, as well.) It's your responsibility to check the licensing status of each and every image you want to include in an article here to make sure that it's correct. You ask, "If I use the Commons section and am challenged for it, what’s the point?" The relevant point is simply that you didn't do your job—evidently, you didn't know that it was your job to verify images' licenses before bringing an article to FAC; now you do. Commons remains a great, though imperfect, resource for free images—greater for some subject fields and eras than others, it should be kept in mind. You say, "So my argument would be that, because of their ambiguity, perhaps I might keep the images unless they are challenged by someone claiming to hold the copyright for them." Sorry, no, that's not how it works. First, and specifically, there's no "ambiguity." The information in the licensing tags on the Commons pages of the three screenshots makes very clear that they are under copyright and do not presently belong on Commons. Second, and generally, we do not sit and wait for challenges to patently erroneous claims that items are in the public domain—if something appears in all likelihood to be under copyright, we treat it as if it is under copyright.
Yes, you will have to rehost the image of Kurosawa from 1957 on the set of The Lower Depths if you intend to use it. The Commons image of Kurosawa on the set of Throne of Blood, apparently a publicity photo, was evidently taken before December 31, 1956, and is in the public domain if it was published before that date. However, the movie was not released until January 15, 1957, so while it is certainly possible, it is not safe to assume that the photo was published before Dec. 31, 1956. Unless evidence can be found that it was, yes, it too must be rehosted as a fair use image if it is to be used here. By rehosting, I simply mean uploading the images to Wikipedia as fair use content—I see you did that with the infobox image, so you obviously know how. If you want to be a good Commons citizen and assist in removing the inappropriate hosted images from there, by all means, but this is not the venue to get into that. On the other hand, an issue you will have to grapple with here is whether the inclusion of three fair use images each of whose primary purpose is to show Akira Kurosawa abides by clause #3a of our non-free content policy: "Minimal usage. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information."
You write, "The Yojimbo and Red Beard images already have fair use rationales for the articles in which they originally appeared. Do I have to write a whole other rationale for *my* article?" Yes, you must. That's a basic requirement of our policy. Here's the guideline page that goes into greater detail on the matter: Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline.
You write, "I will rewrite the rationale for the Tora! Tora! Tora! image to make it a bit more detailed." My suggestion that its rationale "should be improved to discuss its function in the context of the article's critical commentary on the film" was actually intended as a hint that, under our policy, it is not a particularly effective choice of image to represent the movie in an article about Kurosawa. I am sorry that I was not more explicit in making that point. While our non-free content guideline does support the use of "Film and television screen shots: For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television", our best practices urge us to find screenshots that directly support or expand on textual commentary. I'm afraid that someone who draws a harder line on non-free image use than I is likely to identify this image as "decoration." On the one hand, it appears to have no direct relationship to the text beyond the fact that it's an image from the film. On the other, it should be possible to find an image from the film that does inform us more about Kurosawa's style and/or methods, shouldn't it?
You write, "I would argue that the 'Reputation among other filmmakers' subsection represents a nice change of pace from the 'flowing' style of the rest of the article". I disagree. The shift from full-fledged, conventional paragraphs to a style in which over half of the section's 13 paragraphs are no longer than a sentence (and, as you note, in several cases, not even a grammatical sentence) appears odd, unmotivated, and unprofessional. This is similarly true of the Legacy section, if not to the same extent. This "change of pace"—"nice" or not—does not represent writing of a "professional standard", as required by our criteria.—DCGeist (talk) 00:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have completely revised the "Reputation among filmmakers" subsection to make the implicit structure of that subsection explicit and to organize it into coherent paragraphs so that it reads better. (If you think that passage was "odd, unmotivated, and unprofessional" before I just changed it, you should check out the article's View history to see what a mess it was when I first started work on the article.) I have deleted the "Homages" section because I had absolutely no idea how to make it "flow" and it just wasn't worth the hassle. I will have to get to the problems with the Legacy section and the images later.
I do hope that you have exhausted your objections to the article, but in case you haven't, I would appreciate it if you would give them all to me now, because I will be traveling from the middle of next week and will have little to no time to work on this project then. Dylanexpert (talk) 03:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To date I have merely raised those issues that leapt out at me from a quick glance at the article—concerning the lede, the images, the obviously rough sections at the bottom (Reputation among filmmakers looks much better now—good job—and I just edited Legacy myself). I am afraid I have not yet had time to read through the entire article, giving it the careful attention it deserves. I look forward to doing so, but I will not have time myself until next weekend.—DCGeist (talk) 05:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It is great to see the article here, and being given a good deal of work. Without reading the text in detail I see a few key issues:
  • Image problems need to be fully resolved. There appear to be images that are probably still in copyright but which are being claimed as free, and non-free use images where I'm not sure they are necessary to illustrate this article (and would therefore fail one of the non-free use criteria). The example I noticed was the screenshot from Tora! Tora! Tora!, which could be justified for the article on that film, but I doubt the same can be said for the article about the director.
  • Sourcing problem. I noticed that Kurosawa's 1983 autobiographical work is extensively quoted, including in places where either an independent source is needed, or the WP article language needs to be changed to reflect the fact that it is reporting Kurosawa's view. Example (footnote 49): "It was Kurosawa who, with his mentor Yamamoto, had intervened to persuade Toho to sign Mifune, during an audition in which the young man greatly impressed Kurosawa, but managed to alienate most of the other judges."
  • There are some one sentence paras that don't reflect an appropriate style and need to be consolidated.
  • Care with claims. Example: "Many commentators regard Seven Samurai as the ultimate expression of the artist’s heroic ideal. Joan Mellen’s comments are typical of this view..." - however Mellen is the only cited source. So how do we know that "many commentators" have this view of Seven Samurai? hamiltonstone (talk) 01:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The extreme overuse of non-free images has got to go. It made this list and has even more since that report was run. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's extremely unfortunate (not to mention careless) that you chose to (double) oppose my site without even bothering to read the previous commentators. If you had, you would have realized that many of your objections had been voiced already, and if you had checked out the "View history" you would realize that even on the day that you posted here, I was already addressing the problems you have mentioned. When I get finished, all the non-free images will have Fair Use rationales. (You seem to get upset with non-free images whether they have Fair Use rationales or not.) Please note that many of these images were taken from Commons when I was naive enough to assume that on Commons every image was free (as indeed they are supposed to be). Since the problem was pointed out to me, I have made every effort to rectify it, but I'm not finished yet. As for your objection to "one sentence paras", please look again: I doubt if you'll find them now.
I will address your other objections when I have time and energy to do so. Dylanexpert (talk) 03:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure of your comments are directed toward Hammersoft, myself, or both of us. I have struck my concern about the single-sentence paras. I'm not quote sure why you are concerned that some of the objections had already been voiced. As the FAC process continues and comes to a conclusion, the delegates who close the noms have to make an assessment of the consensus of editors around whether the article meets the FA criteria. I was deliberately adding/concurring re the image issues others have raised. On another point, (again not sure whether you are addressing Hammersoft or myself), but I'm not concerned about non-free use images per se; rather I am concerned not just that they have a Fair Use rationale, but that the rationale is adequate to defend their use in this particular article consistent with the guidelines. The only image I checked out in any detail was the Tora! Tora! Tora! image. The fair use rationale currently includes this: "Screenshot from a copyrighted Hollywood motion picture". However the caption says "all footage he had already shot was scrapped." That being the case, I'm not sure how the image can be from the released motion picture. In any case, I don't think a still image from a moving film for which the director was fired will be capable of meeting the non-free use criteria. I'd delete this image and focus on the rationales for those images that are most closely tied to the article about the director himself: an example might be File:Akira Kurosawa Throne of Blood.jpeg, in which he is pictured actually directing. Under replaceability, the current text states "As the motion picture appears to be in copyright, it is not possible to replace the image with a free image." However, the image itself is not from the motion picture, so this doesn't make sense. But I agree it is a very promising image to try and include in the article, so i'd work on tightening these up. For what it's worth, you have my sympathies for the size of the task. I have used a small number of non-free images in FACs and it has always been a struggle to get them exactly right. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dylanexpert: You are correct. I didn't read much of the oppose commentary. In this case, I don't need to do so. This article currently contains 23 non-free images. That is an extreme amount of non-free imagery. 23 non-free images places this article in the top 15 of all articles on Wikipedia in terms of non-free content usage...something we discourage. To be an article in the top (rather bottom 10% of 1% of 1% of all articles is excessive and extreme. Extreme usage requires extreme cases. What makes this article so different that it requires that much non-free imagery use in order to be able to adequately convey its meaning in an encyclopedic way? This is nothing more than a biography of a director. I'm not seeing a strong reason, much less an extreme reason, why we must include so much non-free content.
  • This does not even get to the issue of whether images have rationales. It's not enough that images simply have rationales. They must be acceptable rationales. There's many rationales among these 23 images that are seriously lacking. "To provide an image of the actor Toshiro Mifune, who became a film star in Japan as a result of this film, as indicated in the article's text." (File:Drunken-Angel-1a.jpg). To provide an image? I.e., decoration. We don't use fair use images decoratively. "To illustrate this groundbreaking film which introduced Japanese cinema to the West." (File:Rashomon 1a.jpg). Again, decoratively. Is there something significant about this scene from that movie that was commented on in press or other secondary source of the time? If so, then it should be noted in the rationale...but it isn't. It's just a scene, apparently randomly chosen, if we are to believe the rationale. "To illustrate Akira Kurosawa at the time the film was made." File:Akira Kurosawa Throne of Blood.jpeg Again, to illustrate. Decoration. Was there something radically different about his appearance at the time the film was made that was noted in secondary sources? I'm just scratching at the surface here, and this is not a thorough review of all the images. It's blatantly obvious there are serious failings throughout these images.
  • The amount of usage is extreme, and it MUST be trimmed before it reaches featured article status. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, I think Hammersoft is right. I've removed some of the images that seemed to me most markedly 'decorative': that is, they added nothing essential to our knowledge of the director that could not be adequately conveyed by the text. The non-free use rationale issue remains for all the other images - i've just started to narrow the field to the more significant images around which there might be prospect of some legitimate discussion about use. I expect there will however need to be more culling. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have started a thread on the subject at the article talk page. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [29].

William H. Prescott

Nominator(s): Claritas § 10:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been working on this article pretty much single-handedly since May, and it's gone from a weak start class to GA. I think the coverage and sourcing clearly meets the FA criteria, and I doubt that anything other than minor changes need to be made to other aspects of the article for it to meet the respective criteria. Claritas § 10:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Notes
  • Bibliography
    • Johnson and Brown not a cited work, should be listed as further reading
    • Likewise Lockwood
    • Likewise Ticknor (1861), I think
    • Likewise Palmer
    • Space required between "Peck" and "Harry"
    • Sullivan (2009) missing a forename
    • ISBNs missing from Peck and both Sullivan books
    • No citations to Robert Anderson Wilson. Is there a reason why he is singled out for a redlink?
    • No citations to Winsor

Otherwise sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 14:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed all. Claritas § 15:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an issue with it ? I like that template, and some journal articles use the same/similar format. Claritas § 08:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I personally quite liked the format, but it may be contrary to MOS:ALLCAPS Brianboulton (talk) 15:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It looks fine. The MOS seems to be more concerned with all caps in the main text of the work, and I don't think there are any difficulties in reading it, so I'd prefer to ignore that rule and keep the present format. Claritas § 16:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:MOS#Keep_markup_simple and MOS:ALLCAPS is not confined to writing within the body of the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the smallcaps, although I did take a fancy to it myself, too :P. Not a big deal, though. —fetch·comms 03:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. In the Legacy section it says "Prescott himself was the origin of several now common elements of academic writing, including the use of bibliographical citations and critical notes.", cited to Gardiner. Now, I am intrigued by this: Edward Gibbon famously used footnotes/citations/critical notes in the 18th century, and Anthony Grafton seems to think the scholarly footnote originated with German scholars (I have examples of such citations from decades before Prescott on my shelves myself). Buchraeumer (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Claritas has informed me that: "Gardiner does explicitly say that Prescott was the first historian to use citations etc. However, Gardiner's work is particularly centred on America, and I therefore think Buchraeumer is probably right - Gibbons did use footnotes/critical notes (although not to the extent which Prescott does)."
The wording has been changed in both the last line of the lede (to "Prescott has become one of the most widely translated American historians, and was an important figure in the development of history as a rigorous academic discipline.") and the first two lines of the "Legacy" section (to "Prescott's work has remained popular and influential to the present day, and his meticulous use of sources, bibliographical citations and critical notes was unprecedented among American historians."). —fetch·comms 03:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am absolutely fine with the new wording as regards this point! While I found the Legacy section very good, I am afraid, some earlier sections are a quite confusing for a reader relatively unfamiliar with the intellectual life of the era. For many personalities I had to use the link. In the Isabella section (for example) passages about the work and other details of his life alternate too much IMO, it's really confusing. My impression is that the article still suffers too much from the problem of organizing the material into a logical (and understandable) overall narrative or structure. Buchraeumer (talk) 10:55, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Working on this. I've reordered a few things, done more copyediting, etc. in the meantime. For the most part, I think the article reads fine except for bits in the Career sections, especially the early career, as you mentioned. —fetch·comms 04:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Claritas has been blocked and has indicated that he wants this FAC closed, but I am requesting that it please stay open for a bit longer, as I am currently in private correspondence with Claritas and would like to discuss a few things (including the possibility of me finishing this up) first. —fetch·comms 22:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: Images are verifiably in the public domain—no issues. Jappalang (talk) 07:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [30].

Mount Fee

Nominator(s): Volcanoguy (talk) 08:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I finally recreated Mount Fee's article after doing months of information gathering. There is apparently not much known about its geology because it has not been studied in detail and its age and timing of volcanic events are not exactally known either because they remain undated. I could not find anything about Fee's volcanic hazards (e.g. the danger from future eruptions). So I suspect GSC volcanologists are not worried about future eruptions; it may even be extinct given its circumstances; the current mountain is the remnants of a larger volcanic feature. Anyway I suspect the article is fairly complete. Volcanoguy 08:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 09:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: needs some copyediting at least. I think the worst passage is probably "Mount Fee covers a volume of at least 0.3 km (0.19 mi)" (here "covers" implies an area, which clashes with both "volume" and the linear measures "0.3 km", "0.19 mi"), but there are plenty of places where the text needs work. --Avenue (talk) 10:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Volcanoguy 15:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, even that specific passage is not fixed. It is slightly improved, in that the word covers is no longer there, but the article still claims Mt Fee "has a volume of at least 0.3 km (0.19 mi)". I have tracked down the source cited for that sentence, and it doesn't support this claim, so I have now requested a source. --Avenue (talk) 09:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Volcanoguy 12:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - in lead - "At least two major summits constitute the north and south portions of the ridge, with the southern tower being the highest." How many major summits are there on the ridge ? Presumably it doesn't vary much, seeing as the volcano isn't active. Claritas § 10:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. I have no idea how many summits it has but two major summits lie on top of the ridge. There are several minor peaks that form the lava spines discussed in the article. Volcanoguy 15:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: all sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 14:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - Overall, a short, but well-written article.
  • This mountain ridge represents the base of a north–south trending volcanic field Mount Fee occupies. - which ... occupies
Fixed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mount Fee is one of the southernmost of more than 10 volcanoes occupying the Mount Cayley volcanic field. - This sentence could use a rewrite.
Fixed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The volcanic belt has formed as a result of going subduction of the Juan de Fuca Plate under the North American Plate at the Cascadia subduction zone along the British Columbia Coast.[3] - ongoing
Fixed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As periods of glaciation covered the ancestral volcano, it removed much of the original outer cone of pyroclastic material. - Verb tense agreement. I don't think periods is the right word, either.
I just removed "periods of" so it reads as As glaciation covered the ancestral volcano, it removed much of the original outer cone of pyroclastic material. What do you mean by verb tense agreement? Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Its volcanics remain undated, but its large amount of dissection and evidence of glacai ice overriding the volcano indicates that it formed more than 75,000 years ago before the Wisconsinan Glaciation. - but the large amount of dissection and evidence of glacial ice at the volcano, versus overriding the volcano.
Overriding is a better term. During glaciations the volcano was buried under glacial ice of the Wisconsinan Glaciation. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The remaining products from Fee's earliest volcanic activity is a minor portion of pyroclastic rock. - Verb tense agreement; also, I think you could use a better noun than portion, as that makes it sound like the activity is food.
Food? I changed "portion" to "outcrop" anyway. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is evidence of explosive volcanism during Fee's eruptive history, - Pipe link explosive eruptions?
Yup. I thought there was already a link to the explosive eruption article but I guess not. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cultural ceremonial use, hunting, trapping and plant gathering occured in the Mount Garibaldi area, - Assuming ceremonial use of the mountain, but that's not clear.
Removed. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In September 1928, Mount Fee was named by British mountaineer Tom Fyles after Charles Fee (1865–1927), who was a member of the British Columbia Mountaineering Club in Vancouver at the time.[11] - Doesn't make sense if he died in 1927.
It does not say the namer (Tom Flyes) died in 1927. The year refers to Charles Fee, the person Fee takes its name from. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even though it is a short article, its scope is large for such a small volcano. Volcanoguy 23:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image issue: all images are fine, except for File:Mount Fee.jpg. Initially, I was of the opinion that it only required an administrator to confirm the original license on Wikipedia (the upload log does not state it). However, I found this, which was uploaded to the web as early as 2005. The image on Wikipedia is a crop from Michael Coyle's photograph (which supposedly can be seen in full glory if you are a paid member of the bivouac site). The copyright status of this image should be clarified and resolved if the image is to be used on this project. Jappalang (talk) 05:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notice the image's author is the one that uploaded it on Commons. Volcanoguy 12:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No. Tsylos uploaded it to Wikipedia on 2007-02-18 01:56. Hike395 transferred it to Commons on 13:14, 23 April 2007. Nowhere is it stated or verifiable that Michael Coyle is either of these two users. Jappalang (talk) 03:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, sorry.
  • While much of the article is quite readable, the prose is still not up to FA standard in several places, with the wording often being cumbersome or worse. Some illustrative examples: "The conduit for which these lava flows originated from...", "The volcanic edifice ancestral Mount Fee represented...", "It is nearly vertical in structure...", and "The ... volcanics composing Mount Fee contain ... 15% vesicular textures" (should be vesicles). The final section on Monitoring is particularly muddled.
  • There are still multiple spelling and grammar mistakes (especially singular/plural disagreement), e.g. "crevice that give them", "abgle", "The remaining products ... is", "significant support ... have resulted".
  • Some inaccuracies remain, e.g. stratovolcanoes can reach heights of much more than 2,438.4 m (which is a ridiculously overprecise figure, BTW), and the bit saying "About 25% of the volcanics contain crystal content" would be more accurately phrased as "the crystal content of the volcanics is about 25%" (and the source cited says "up to", not "about").
  • Some causal linkages are unexplained and seem dubious or unclear, e.g. the "Therefore" in the Eruptive history section, and the linkage between earthquakes and volcanism in the Monitoring section: "with the existence of earthquakes, further volcanism is expected".
  • Another minor issue is that the {{convert}} seems to omit &nbsp; before units, so the article fails to follow WP:MOS where this template is used. This seems to be a known problem with the template (see Template_talk:Convert#Nbsp.3F). While this isn't ideal, hopefully it will be fixed eventually, and I wouldn't oppose based on that. --Avenue (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Avenue, as a member of WP Volcanoes, it seems to be a bit awkward seeing another WP Volcano member giving points to be fixed if they understand what is being discussed even if it is relatively poorly writen. Why not do it yourself and work as a WP Volcano member? Because everything in the article seems quite clear to me. So I am likely not the one to do the copyediting. The reason I used 2,438.4 m is because the source uses feet; apparently 8,000 feet equels to 2,438.4 m according to the Convert template. Volcanoguy 13:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know it can be hard to see what parts of one's writing might be unclear to others. That's one reason why an article often benefits from going through peer review, even if the original author knows much more about the topic than the reviewer.
I'm sorry I haven't yet been able to provide more hands-on help with this article. I have had my hands full with other tasks lately (an FLC, an FAR, and a current event), all also part of WP Volcanoes or my other main project, WP New Zealand. All I have been able to do for this FAC was look in at the beginning, and come back and review the article more carefully yesterday. I hope I will have time to come back to this article again in a week or so. I have a wikibreak scheduled in two weeks time, and I'm hoping to resolve the other tasks before then.
Also, please realise that copyediting is not always trivial. I might understand most of the statements in this article on one level, but the motivations for various statements and the connections made between them are still obscure to me. To take a simple example, I wasn't sure what meaning you intended the reader to draw from the 8000 ft stratovolcano figure. Is it that Mount Fee is close to 8000 ft in height itself? Or (now that I've checked the source) does the 8000 ft refer to the stratovolcano's height above its base (in which case our text should be made clearer), and so imply that the ancestral Mt Fee stratovolcano could have been vastly bigger than the current remnant? How high is the non-volcanic base that Mt Fee is built on? Is there more specific evidence we could cite about the size of ancestral Mt Fee, rather than fall back on a very general figure?
I've fixed a few of the simpler problems (and struck them out above). Again, I'm sorry I can't provide much more help with this at present. --Avenue (talk) 01:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [31].

Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814

Nominator(s): The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC), Ga Be 19 19:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I am the primary editor. I originally planned to nominate this article right after Control (Janet Jackson album) passed FAC, but went on a wikibreak. The article has had a peer review and has been copyedited by editors other than myself. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Co-nominator, relatively new on Wikipedia, requested help in the nomination process. Ga Be 19 19:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removed wikilink since there is not a direct page to link with. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Consistency: generally "retrieved", but ref 21 and everything from 74 onward has "Retrieved".
  • Ref 80: Note source is in German
  • Ref 81: What makes http://www.chartstats.com/albuminfo.php?id=8600 a reliable source?
  • Ref 82: As CRIA is an organisation, not a printed source, it should not be italicised.
  • Same applies to the sources in refs 83-85

Otherwise all sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 15:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I've taken care of the sourcing problem. Replaced a few links and changed some of the values used in the templates. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Added additional rationale to show the variation in sound found in the two samples. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General comments: This is a long and pretty comprehensive article, obviously the product of hard work. I'm not well versed in Janet Jackson's music, or of this kind of music generally, so I apologise if some of my comments read naively. There are rather a lot of smallish prose niggles, which make me think that the article needs a full copyedit pass. I'm not through yet, but here are some points to work on:-

  • Lead: I have done a couple of copyedits. Can you look at the following points:-
    • "Although critics viewed the album's theme as transparent..." What did the critics mean by this?
    • "soft balladry": could there be a link to one of the sections of the ballad artice, to help readers understand this term?
    • It's not necessary to list the titles of the seven songs in the lead.
    • Capital C in certified?
    • I'd put "fourteen million" in numeric form, as you have with other large numbers later in the article.
  • Outside the lead, some general points, mainly prose issues
    • The "conception" section is rather crowded out, by the tail of the infobox and two quote boxes. I'm not sure that either quote box is really necessary; certainly no more than one.
    • The title does not read like a "composite" of the pledge and the creed. You could say the title was "drawn from", or perhaps "inspired by", but it isn't a composite.
    • "Complete lyrics were included in the album." Not sure what that means; copies of the lyrics?
    • References to "Jam" or "Jimmy Jam" read unencyclopedically, and should be made more formal
    • "Author Ken Hughes of Keyboard Magazine notes that although considered to be crude by modern standards,..." What exactly is considered crude, and by whom?
    • Is it appropriate to have critics' comments at this stage of the article?
    • "whose", not "who's"
    • "the album debut at number 28" Presumably "debuted"?
    • "1,000,000 units" and "four million copies" in the same paragraph (and "fourteen million" and "four million")

Brianboulton (talk) 22:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I've addressed your points, barring: 1) Jimmy Jam (Like Sting, Madonna or Lady Gaga) known exclusively by his stage name rather than his birth name, so I'm not sure how you'd would reword those statements. 2) The critic's comments are included for his explanation of the structure of the music, not its reception. 3) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the rule is words over "ten" are written numerically and words under "ten" are spelled out. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [32].

Limbo (video game)

Nominator(s): MASEM (t) 00:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unsure of his sister's fate, a boy enters the unknown For a video game which this was really the only text that was given to the player outside of menu screens, and could be completed in 3 hours, Limbo generated a surprising amount of buzz that larger productions would only love to see. I will note that the GA reviewer, J Milburn, is seeing if we can free up the game screen images directly with the developers but I do not see that as a potential problem for FA promotion of this article; if it happens, great, otherwise, the images are rationaled for NFC use. I do expect this game to acquire some end-of-year nods but the reception section is set up to handle the influx if necessary. MASEM (t) 00:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, I think this would make a great featured article. The little changes you've made in the last few days (splitting the sections, moving some of the plot stuff, things like that) have made a real improvement. Just some random all-over-the-place comments-

  • "Prior to its release, Limbo was awarded both the "Technical Excellence" and "Excellence in Visual Art" titles at the Independent Games Festival at the 2010 Game Developers Conference.[46]" Very short paragraph- you could perhaps expand it by saying other nominations, or a quote, or something. I strongly agree that Limbo will no doubt get more awards yet, but, for now at least...
  • "that can otherwise has been seen in previous platformers." That sounds like Wikipedia is endorsing that view- perhaps something like "which he claims can otherwise be seen in previous platformers."
  • Are Category:Microsoft games, Category:Xbox 360 games and Category:Xbox 360 Live Arcade games not all redundant to each other? Would the last not be the only one needed?
  • Could we get that lovely tagline in somewhere? I see we already have. Annoying the infobox doesn't have room for it."
  • "of The Globe and Mail summarized his" If you're sticking with British English, summarise is normally spelt with an s over here.
  • "from repeating trying dead-end solutions" repeatedly trying?
  • "fewer than five deaths." Isn't it actually five or fewer, or fewer than six?
  • "one achievements challenges" Spare s?
  • "that disappeared once the player has crossed it" Tense mess up. Present disappear would be better. Alternative, have disappeared, but the passive voice usually isn't a good thing. (Additionally, perhaps refer to them as "who"?)

A few little bits to be getting on with- good luck! J Milburn (talk) 14:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All the small language pieces have been changed. I completely forgot to check how the game did at E3 and was able to add more to the awards "paragraph" so that it's better now. As for the categories, that issue comes up every so often at the VG project, but per the most recent discussion [33] and explained through WP:DUPCAT. I do note that Category:Microsoft Games is not in the same "hierarchy" as the other three because MS neither makes all games for the Xbox 360, nor only makes games only for the Xbox 360. --MASEM (t) 15:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Ref 3: "Rock Paper Shotgun" is a blog. What makes it reliable? (Also 34)
  • Ref 28: "MTV" should not be italicised. Likewise 30 & 49 (G4TV)
  • Ref 29 (Cinema Blend): I'm a little concerned by the message carried by this source: "Don't take us too seriously". Doesn't this suggest unreliability?
  • Ref 38: The format should be adjusted to conform with that used for the other references. If the source is in German, this should be stated.

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rock Paper Shotgun is a blog run by four UK journalists with existing background as video game reporters prior to that. The specific person in both sources, Kieron Gillen has an established background in this field, so he has strong reliability. Ref 3 is an interview with one of the game's developers; Ref 34 is more a re-reporting of information from other, less reliable blogs to summarize an event.
Cinema Blend's reviews are generally considered expert; the article used here - a pre-review of sorts - is only to support the list of games that Limbo has been compared to. I believe I can replace it with the A.V. Club review (I have to double check which game is cited by which article), and will do that if there's a problem, but I don't see a pressing need right now. (I'm not opposed to fixing it though, don't get me wrong).
The CNet Germany ref is made up from the same cite web template. There is no author listed on the article, so the cite web drops to that format (same as, say, Ref #23 (Edge) and #31 (Toronto Sun).
All other changes fixed. --MASEM (t) 18:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Argh, not sure if I'll have time to do a proper review with this spotty internet access. Anyhow, some quick things I noticed:
    • "The game is presented through dark, greyscale graphics and with minimalist ambient sounds, creating an "eerie" and "haunting" environment."→If these are the words of a critic, I'd rather frame them as such so we don't seem to be throwing out quotes for no reason.
    • And... that's it, for now, really. I saw some minor grammar issues, but nothing I can't fix when I have my own time instead of wasting everyone's posting laundry lists. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 15:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • They're words of several critics but difficult to source to one in that fashion, so I've removed the quotes but made sure of a couple references to back this statement up. --MASEM (t) 15:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; a fine article. J Milburn (talk) 22:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, just come across this- apparently, the gameplay section is meant to come before the plot. Seems counter-intuitive to me, but maybe that's just because of the kind of gamer I am... J Milburn (talk) 22:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's not a hard-set guideline, it really depends a lot on how well you can separate plot from gameplay. For something like, say, Doom, where the story is trivial then yes as you get the key detail ("it is a video game that does this...") down first. Here, we have plot/gameplay that are tightly bound, so setting the stage for what's going on first makes it easier to talk about gameplay without repeating plot details. I had the same problem before on The World Ends With You in that trying to explain the gameplay before hitting the plot made it really difficult to the tightness of everything. --MASEM (t) 22:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object - I think this has some of the makings of a featured article, but there seem to be problems with criteria 1a and 1c at the minimum. For 1a, the text needs to be edited/proofread just for grammatical issues. For example, there are problems with parallel structure in the lead: "challenging the player to guide an unnamed boy through dangerous environments and avoiding"; note "to guide" and "avoiding". There are also confusing focus shifts: "The developers built the game's puzzles expecting the player to fail several times, killing the boy character in gruesome manners, before coming upon the correct solution, calling the style of play 'trial-and-death'." You have "expecting", "killing", "coming", and "calling", but you variously refer to the developers, the player, player, and then the developers again. Confusing. These types of problems are pervasive in the lead and body text. For 1c: You state in the lead that journalists compared the work to "film noir" so I checked for support of that statement later in the article. There is one article ([34]) where the writers states the game "screams noir" which doesn't mention film at all so is hardly a comparison. The other source ([35]) is actually quoting the game director, so that's not a journalist. More language problems there as well: "Jensen used inspiration of several films, including film noir"; well, "film noir" is hardly a film, right? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 18:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, there's plenty of cited reviews in the Reception section (see Presentation) that connect the game to "film noir", and you can clearly see it from a google search as well (though again, I've included the reliable sources already). I have tried to go through and fix the parallel structure and a few other things but I am not seeing any major problems on the language beyond what a few useful points should be able to fix. --MASEM (t) 19:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not sure I understand your rebuttal to the film noir issue. If you state something in the lead, it has to be stated in the text as well, backed up with a citation. Your text contains two other mentions of the term and neither has a citation that backs up the statement you made in the lead. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, it's more that many of the reviews highlighted the film noir aspect, and thus mentioned this with one ref example, followed by other examples that delve more into the presentation from other refs would be appropriate (it's hard to consider it a "contentious" statement that needs explicit sourcing) However, taking the advice, I've put in two additional sources that make the "film noir" connection on the line in the reception section. --MASEM (t) 00:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • OK, thanks. I'll try to look again tonight or tomorrow and see what progress has been made. Do you think you could get someone to go through the writing and smooth it out? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 01:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I've been able to have a fresh set of eyes review the text for copyediting. --MASEM (t) 18:35, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • I only see a handful of tweaks and I'm afraid that's not going to be sufficient. Maintain objection based on 1a; for example, starting in Development, "and instead directed the art towards the minimalistic style as to allow the development to focus its attention on the gameplay." How does development focus its own attention? Do you mean "allow developers to focus their attention"? Then, "For the second goal, Jensen wanted the player to only need two additional controls" contains a misplaced modifier. Simple grammar stuff, it's all over the article. It needs a thorough treatment, sorry. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 00:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: 1a. Masem, as much as I admire your work at WP, I have to agree with Spike. And this nomination has been hanging around here for quite a while and has become rather large, suggesting it was premature. These issues in the lead indicate the likelihood that the whole text needs a big copy-edit. I think this should be withdrawn and resubmitted after collaboration with wordy editors.
  1. You couldn't write a stub to avoid the glaring red link at the top and in the infobox, could you?
  2. The infobox pic really leaves a lot to be desired. What is it? Could it possibly be tweaked and re-uploaded to bring out the structure? It's a mystery.
  3. "trial-and-death"—it's already within quotes, so are the hyphens necessary?
  4. The boy dies more than once? Unfortunate question-mark for the reader at the top.
  5. Could I put in a plea not ever to use "utilising", one of the ugliest words in English? Why not "with" (to avoid ing ing, too)?
  6. Monochromatic is black and white, isn't it? Why write both?
  7. "an eerie atmosphere similar to the horror genre"—possibly remove the last five words? I don't get the reference ... horror genre in vid games? It's clear from the next bit, anyway.
  8. Shouldn't there be a comma before "based on"?
  9. "Limbo received mixed reviews for its minimal story"—minimal story sounds boring. Do you mean "minimalist"? And perhaps if this is an admired trait, you could add a few words of context, even in the lead?
  10. "tied in"?
  11. any -> a
  12. the lack of an abrupt ending? Just add "the" to stop the ellipsis.
  13. Remove "point of". Or better, shave that whole phrase out: "Many reviewers felt the high cost .... purchasing it." ("the title" is a bit laboured.)
  14. Logic problem: "However, some reviews proposed that Limbo had an ideal length." Well ... the length might have been ideal, but that doesn't necessarily negate the cost/lenth ratio complained of in the previous sentence. Why the "however"? Recast both sentences, possibly reversing their order. Tony (talk) 14:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:08, 14 September 2010 [36].

Winter Olympic Games

Nominator(s): H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 16:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because in the previous FAC nomination the article received a degree of support but was not promoted due to a legitimate object for content reasons. I've addressed the content concerns raised and gave the article some time to breathe. I'd like to renominate it for FA consideration with the hope that it is worthy of the star. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 16:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I find this sentence a bit confusing: "The Games were held every four years from 1924 until 1940 when they were interrupted by World War II. The Winter and Summer Games resumed in 1948 and were held in the same year until 1992, when the Games were placed on separate four-year cycles."
    • The images on the page might be visually improved if they alternated sides, and if people were facing the text.
    • Is it necessary to mention every Olympic Games in the history section? It seems odd that each Games is given equal treatment, rather than focusing on important moments. For example the boycotted 1980 Games. Why does that paragraph only mention boycott "rumors", rather than the actual boycott? If the history section is going to discuss all games, would it be possible to integrate the "List of games" at the bottom into this section? I'm uncertain how this section is subdivided. I would like to see more discussion of trends during different time periods, like the number of athletes, participating countries, or number of sports.
  • There was significant debate as to whether the history section required a synopsis of each Games. See here and here for thoughts that trend towards keeping the history as is.
  • I've added info on the 1980 boycott.
  • I'm reticent to move the list up to this section. I think that would break up the prose and signficantly impact the readability of the article. I'd like to hear what others think of this idea.
  • I've sprinkled participation statistics into the history section at five different Games to show progression. More could be added if deemed necessary. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 22:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is unsourced: "Brundage's concerns proved prophetic. The IOC has charged more for television broadcast rights at each successive Games.", as is this: "The more television companies have paid to televise the Games, the greater their persuasive power with the IOC."
    • Why is the 1992 switch to occurring in off-years to the summer Olympics discussed under the "commercialization" section rather than the "history"? I think it should be moved, but I can see that the motivations for the switch were commercial.
  • There are two sentences in the history section about this switch. I intentionally kept the information here brief so as not to duplicate information found later. It is further discussed in the commercialization section because as you point out, many of the motives for the change were financial. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 20:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is unsourced: "The process for awarding host city honours came under intense scrutiny after Salt Lake City had been awarded the right to host the 2002 Games. Soon after the host city had been announced it was discovered that the organisers had engaged in an elaborate bribery scheme to curry favour with IOC officials"
    • This is unsourced, and the first two sentences are out of place: "Hosting an Olympic Winter Games leaves a significant mark on the community after the Games are finished. This impact is felt for years afterwards. Until recently the cost of hosting the Games was assumed by the host nation."
    • Unsourced: "The organisers claimed that the cost of extending bullet train service from Tokyo to Nagano was responsible for the huge price tag"
  • Looking through the article again, I have a few more questions, which are less nitpicky this time:
    • When cities are mentioned as hosts, should the host country also be mentioned? As in "Sochi, Russia". This is inconsistent, which is not necessarily bad, but deserves attention.
  • Ok so here's what I did, I added the country name to each reference to the city in the history section. If there were duplicative references to the same city I used my discretion. I did not add any more country names to cities after the history section because the reader can refer back to the history section if s/he has a question about the city name, also several of the city references are in the format of, "the Grenoble Games", or "the Turino Games". It is cumbersome to put a country name in this context. Let me know what you think.
    • Should the commercialization section be moved inside the controversy section? It seems like it's given undue weight as its own section, but it's not necessarily a controversy either.
  • I'm not sure, I don't want to give it undo weight, I've trimmed it down but if it is still unbalancing the article I would prefer to shorten the section. It could be seen as a controversy though since much has been written both in support of and criticising the IOC's push for financial investment in the Games. I'll reread the section and see if it fits.
  • Ok, I've moved "Commercialisation" into the controversy section. I'm fine with that as it has generated quite a bit of controversy though that isn't explicitly stated in the section. I may add a sentence or two about that to help it fit within the context. Thanks for the suggestion. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 17:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, I appreciate your efforts to critique the article. I've worked through your suggestions and would like to know your thoughts at this point. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 22:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Good to see such a comprehesive article - detailing each games. Aaroncrick TALK 03:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments There are some issues in the refs. Mixture of NJ, New Jersey, UK and expansions. I think they should be expanded as it shouldn'e be assumed etc. Also in the links, there is a style of only shorthanding "Jones (2004)" etc and then plugging the page number off the end of the tag; except in some cases, the book title is listed seperately in repeats. Also there are cases where the book is linked to, but no page given, eg several of the 27s linking to "Judd 2008" don't have a page hanging off the end YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, Yellowmonkey, for jumping in, I was hoping you'd return to review this article again. I'll expand the abbreviations. Regarding the books/page number issue, someone had reformatted some of the books in this way and I didn't know if this was a new requirement in formatting book refs. The contributor didn't do it for all the books so I tried to finish the job though personally I like having the page number in the ref rather than shorthanding it. I think I will convert all the book refs back to the way they were, keep it all consistent. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 15:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, I have expanded the abbreviations and I pushed all the page numbers into the reference rather than having them hang off the in-line citation. I like that format better anyway. Please advise if it is consistent with FA criteria and works within the article. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 17:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Reviewed through the history section last time; now to tackle what's left...

  • Controversy: "The results of the investigation were the expulsion of 10 IOC members and another 10 members were sanctioned". I think this would read better as "the expulsion of 10 IOC members and sanctioning of another 10".
  • Done
  • Sports: "Through the years, the number of sports and events conducted at the Winter Olympic Games have increased." Since "have" is referring to the number of sports, it should probably be the singular "has" instead.
  • Done
  • Replace "Whilst" with "While" here; it's a shade simpler. Plain isn't always bad.
  • Done
  • Discontinued sports and demonstration events: "by having an competition without granting medals." "an" → "a".
  • Done
  • Are there actually any discontinued sports? If not, why is the title the way it is?
  • Done

*Support - Prose looks good to me. ceranthor 14:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC) Abstaining from FAC at this point. I know I'm in no place to sit here disagreeing with Tony, and I intend to come back when this article's prose is tightened. ceranthor 12:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—Problems in the prose, just in the lead. The whole article needs an independent copy-edit; a careful one.

  • "The Winter Olympic Games are a winter multi-sport event held every four years, starting in 1924." Anyone else get a past/present juddering in this opening sentence ("starting")?
  • Then the dramatic statement that it consists of winter sports? Why not work this into the opening sentence; in fact, the opening needs to be rewritten.
  • I'll take a stab at the opening to address the above two bullets.
  • "Other events have been added as the Games have progressed"—the last word is vague. (Do you mean "as time went on", or something like that?)
  • I mean it mostly in the sense of evolution.
  • Rather than an apparent dictionary-term link piped to "demonstrate", why not use the real name in the link ("demonstration sports")?
  • good suggestion.
  • Just a personal thing: "Prior to" could be plainer as "Until then,". Ah, but we don't want anything at the start of that sentence—the time thing occurs a second later.
  • I'll remove "prior to" and put in the Summer Olympic years that figure skating and ice hockey were contested.
  • "Very"? They say it's usually very redundant.
  • removed
  • Links to that list of country-names: readers need to know that they aren't just the useless country links—that they actually lead to valuable, specific articles. Can you unlink and use those links, explicitly, further down? They are totally wasted in their deceptive form. Tony (talk) 15:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting thought, I've never run across this criticism before. I could spell them out a little bit, I just felt that piping to the country name would unclutter the prose and remove some redundancy. I certainly didn't intend it to be deceptive. I'm a strong advocate of not linking to generic country names so I'll see what I can do.

Image issues:

  • File:1956 Winter Olympics opening ceremonies.jpg: The disputed PD-Italy is for simple photos. I do not consider this a simple photo; the photographer certainly had to decide where to position himself to capture the ceremony, effectively presenting the event in an artistic manner suitable for a newspaper or report.

These two image issues should be resolved before promotion. The other images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 03:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:59, 14 September 2010 [37].

Butterfly (Mariah Carey album)

Nominator(s): PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it to fully cover the article and it's surrounding info. Thank you everyone for taking part in this nomination! Feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone! :)PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I fixed all of the "Butterfly," to "Butterfly", etc and all other songs. Check it out now, thanks :D.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on prose. A host of small problems: inconsistent in capitalization of "hip-hop", bad grammar ("as well as hailing as one of the defining albums of the 1990s and Hip-Hop and R&B music", "an life-altering"), and clumsy sentences (repetition of "Carey" in "In the booklet from Carey's twelfth studio album ..., Carey stated"). Further down, there are even basic spelling errors ("how the single would fair, considering it's mix"). This suggests the article needs a thorough copyedit throughout, and is not yet ready for FAC. Ucucha 22:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I looked through the article and fixed allot of those related issues. Please check back when you get the chance. Thanks--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "an" problem is still there, as are the two spelling errors. You also changed "Hip-Hop" in a quotation, which generally shouldn't be done. I really think you need an independent copyeditor to look over it; I may have a try myself, but not today. Ucucha 22:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would be great if possible, I appreciate the offer. I fixed those issues as well, so thank you.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 23:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How did I guess you were going to be unreasonable. That's not a reason to oppose. You have to come up with specific issues with the article. Peer review and GA are not requirements, they are suggestions, so stop trying to sabotage everything I nominate.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 01:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An article does not need to go to GA and PR before becoming an FA. In this case, however, it may have been a good idea. Ucucha 02:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a reason to oppose a nomination Ucucha, he's only doing it to disrupt the nomination, look at his edit history.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 03:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. The writing is bad in almost every paragraph.
  • There's still punctuation inside songs, even after having this pointed out.
  • Background should have some dates so we know when all this is taking place.
  • "Butterfly was one of Carey's best-received albums, hailing as one of the most impressive releases of the year" - ungrammatical.
  • the album was set to be a hit. nonneutral
  • couple's, "irreconcilable separation." why comma.
  • successfully visited Europe and Asia. was she banned and managed to sneak in?
  • Additionally, Erlewine went on to proclaim Butterfly as one of Carey's best records and finished writing, "Carey is continuing to improve and refine her music, which makes her a rarity among her '90s peers." finished writing doesn't make sense.
  • near-perfect score of 4.5 stars. out of 5? and no need for near-perfect, evident.
  • Carey visited The Oprah Winfrey Show where she covered a highly publicized interview, regarding her split from Tommy Mottola. Bad sentence.
  • "Butterfly", which Carey reportedly wrote to Tommy Mottola, was held endeared as her "most heartfelt ballad," a song she felt transformed her career and vocal mystique. very bad sentence.
  • Butterfly's extended popularity, and it's world tour becoming an instant sell-out in Japan, paved the way for Carey's following compilation album, Number 1's, which became the best-selling album in Japan by a non-Asian artist. bad sentence (neverminding the it's).
  • While Carey denied the allegations, many found the proof to be overwhelming. the "proof"?
  • While the video's speculation grew, Carey continued to deny any intention of portraying her marriage in the video. doesn't make sense.
  • as well as The Rosie O'Donnell Show, where she visited twice.
  • Carey re-recorded a Spanish version of "My All", titled "Mi Todo", while also becoming one of her most remixed songs. ungrammatical. implies Carey became one of her most remixed songs.
  • The paragraping seems rather arbitrary. See the first two in writing and composition and the ones in Awards
  • "more mature and subtle than anything Carey had ever recorded." Sourced to [38] which doesn't have that quote. Incidentally that was the first I checked so not too confident that the others support well. Not sure also that you should be using this to summarise critical responses in general (which you later decide to attribute to that specific reviewer).
  • Additionally, Browne commended Carey's "slushy vocals,". What it actually says: "Tracks burble along, verses indistinguishable from choruses, like one big watercolor painting. Others are simply derivative: Prince's The Beautiful Ones is reduced to a slushy vocal showcase for Carey ...".
  • "as well as her restrained and mature "vocal prowess."". Vocal prowess doesn't appear in the source.
  • 13 Juzwiak, Rich. does not check out either.
  • Neither does [39] with "peaking within the top-five in most European countries." only lists a few countries
  • Perhaps tell us what the bomb means in the Review box? Actually appears lower, but not connected.
  • Lots of unsourced.

These are only a fraction of the number of errors; almost every paragraph has some issue or other. Reads like you copied the Shapiro and Nickson books without checking for tense and grammer. Also, any piece using "it's" wrong should be failed automatically. This happens a few times. Also not very unbiased; nothing but overly enthusiastic praise and positive assertions about the album. By far the worse problem however is the shoddy sourcing -- many of those I checked had problems of not quite matching the text. Suggest withdraw nomination. 86.153.124.194 (talk) 03:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:16, 11 September 2010 [40].

Harmon Killebrew

Nominator(s): Alex (talk) 05:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because 1) it has already attained Good Article status. 2) It went through a massive overhaul not too long ago to add information and copy edit what was already there. It has good length, images and references. 4) It is a notable person. Alex (talk) 05:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • While I appreciate the fact that sometimes you need to use web.archive.org links, they should be so marked in the references. They should not be exclusively used, if the site itself is up, because it is an additional hoop to jump through to get to the information about the reliablity/etc. of the site being used. If the site is no longer available, then it really really needs to be noted that the site link is to a web archive not to the original.
How might one go about noting the archive.org in the references? Where might one suggest putting it? Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Using the Wayback Machine is a good place to start. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That being said.... why'd his homepage go down? And why should we trust a autobiographical site (that no longer exists!) for information about the subject of the article?
I believe his site went down because he replaced it with http://www.harmonkillebrewfoundation.org. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We need to have somewhat better sourcing for this than a now-deleted autobiographical webpage. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of the factoids that references the defunct website now references a current website. Still working on finding links for the other three. Alex (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All information that relied on the defunct website now has references from current and/or better sources. Alex (talk) 20:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced it with the source whence that article originally came. Alex (talk) 18:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newspaper/magazine/journal titles should be italicized. (See current ref 14, the sporting news isn't... probalby others also.)
Fixed the Sporting News one. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Baseball Cube is an established online statistical baseball resource. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We need something more than that to show it's a high quality reliable source, which is required for FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a search of the Google News Archive. [41] Baseball America, for one, referenced it. Alex (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two pages, with many of them passing mentions is not exactly impressing me that it's being used often by other reliable sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball-Reference links to it at the bottom of each player's user page. (for example: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/newmaal01.shtml). One could deduce that if Baseball-Reference trusts it, it is reliable. However, looking at what The Baseball Cube is used as a reference for, we could easily switch it out with Baseball-Reference with no ill effects.Alex (talk) 18:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced The Baseball Cube links with Baseball-Reference links. Alex (talk) 19:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decide if you're going to italicize website names or not. You've got Baseball reference italicized but not Retrosheet, etc.
Retrosheet is not italicized because it is marked as the "publisher" of the source, while Baseball-Reference is italicized because it is marked as the larger "work" of the source (the source whence the information came). If anything, it might be wise to remove Baseball-Reference.com as the "work."Alex (talk) 19:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right now it "looks" inconsistent, suggest following the second idea. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Alex (talk) 20:17, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 73 (Harmon Killebrew...) lacks a publisher
Fixed. Hopefully. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 74 (Danny Thompson ...) lacks a publisher
No publisher could be found. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hint... it's going to be the foundation that puts on the gold tournament. (grins) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did find some references to a Danny Thompson Memorial Foundation, so I believe that will suffice. Alex (talk) 18:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use the Harmon Killebrew Foundation as a reference, so it shouldn't be in the external links. Likewise his stats from the Baseball reference.
Fixed. Alex (talk) 18:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This looks to be a self-published work, why is it in the external links? Does it really add anything in addition to the stuff in the article? Or is it a spamish link?
It seems to provide extra biographical information about Mr. Killebrew. Alex (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it is selfpublished and if it was that good, wouldn't you use it as a source? I'm seeing it more as a way for this person to sell copies of their book. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It could be removed, it really doesn't bother me one way or the other. Alex (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I decided to remove it. Alex (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to a nomination." As such, make sure the primary contributors are notified next time. Granted, myself and Wknight are now aware of this and it was more a baseball collab effort to begin with. I'll take a look though, I think there's some things that needed fixing first. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 14:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: This is not a full review by any means, but three suggestions:

  • The introduction does not need all the statistics. The characterizations or summaries are sufficient if supported in the text below, as yours seem to be.
  • There are two uses of "currently" (in this article, in sentences with nearly identical content). "Future-proof" the article; it should still be accurate ten years from now even if you walk away from it tomorrow. "Currently" is a word which should not be used. If you don't want to use the "as of" formulation (which does seem strained), you can, for example, state that he moved to Scottsdale in 1990, and leave it at that.
  • He has "23 grandchildren", not "23 grand children". Kablammo (talk) 12:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed these, plus linked some terms in the lead that weren't but shouldn't be. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 20:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "In the early 1990s, he married Nita.[75] Their family consists of 9 children, 23 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren.[78]" so in 15-20 yrs they have greatgrandkids already. The first and second wife info appear to be mixed together incorrectly YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: While the article is looking pretty good, it's not yet ready to be promoted to Featured Article. A lot of common baseball terms aren't linked, and terms/stats/jargon that can abbreviated at various points in the article aren't (AL). Most of all, some of the prose is rather confusing, either by omitting details (e.g. why Killebrew missed playing time) or by jumbling together various season summaries before going through the years individually (e.g. 1961-1963). I would aim for a more focused season summary approach like was done with Mariano Rivera and Stan Musial - in many cases, the Killebrew season summaries jump back and forth to various other years. Some of the prose just needs to be condensed and copywritten a little more thoroughly (e.g. "On that date, Twins third baseman Rich Rollins made a poor throw to Killebrew at first. In trying to save the play, Killebrew's elbow was dislocated when he and the runner collided and Killebrew was out of action until mid-September"). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another point to make is that some of the citations are curiously constructed. Many of the Baseball-Reference citations do not indicate they are from Baseball-Reference, instead only referring to the publishing company, Sports Reference LLC (this is insufficient). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 13:54, 11 September 2010 [42].

Organization of the Luftwaffe (1933–1945)

Nominator(s):   Perseus 71 talk 02:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is second time I am nominating this article. The First nomination has been archived here. The nomination got archived for one reason only. There were not many extensive comments on the subject of this article. As you can see, there were no opposes. Only Comments on the Sources and image copyrights.

My rationale for nomination is same as before. This article is predominantly about the organizational structure of Luftwaffe during the period of 1933 to 1945. This was the period when an Air Force was not yet recognized as a strategic armed force. One of the lesser known facts is that Luftwaffe during this time was probably the only force to have a tank division of its own. Point is, this article goes into the distinctive organizational structure compared to other contemporary Air Forces of the time. At the same time its not going into the the history of Luftwaffe.

From assessment standpoint, this article has undergone A class review and has been assessed to meed those criteria. A Peer review was conducted and is now archived. The Article also underwent a proper CopyEd by an editor from WP:GoCE. I think that at this point its in a good enough shape that it could be reviewed to see if it can be a FA candidate. The Sources of this article were extensively validated as part of the A Class review and the first nomination.   Perseus 71 talk 02:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I will start fixing these in next few days.  Perseus 71 talk 00:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please be more consistent in the way references are formatted. Consider: "United States War Deparment" vs "US War Department"; multiple-author references with second author first-name first vs last-name first; shortened citations with two authors using "and" vs "&"; etc.
  • No it's not - USWD still not consistent.
  • Is Frieser and Greenwood 1995 or 2005?
  • Is Caldwell and Muller 2002 or 2007?
  • Does the book by Lepage have one author or two? The formatting leaves this unclear
  • Formatting is still unclear here.
  • Is the second author of the Taylor book Percivale John or John Percivale? Again, unclear formatting (and Google search suggests neither is correct?)
  • Is the second author of the Williamson book Andrew Stephen or Stephen Andrew?
  • Deighton appears only in References, not in Citations
  • You have two Mitcham 2007s on the Reference list, but the Citations don't consistently distinguish between the two (one says 2007-b - which one does this refer to? What about the one that says only 2007?)
  • Okay, but now you have Mitcham-a and 2007-b - use a consistent formatting
  • Weal 2001 appears only on the Reference list
  • Check publisher for Caldwell
  • The linked page gives the publisher as Greenhill Books.
  • comment - stylistic issues:
  • I agree with you. However I have been scolded time and again for using too many German languages and making the article unreadable. So finally I have decided to follow WP guidelines to the letter with English words on first use with German words in parenthesis. At second use simply use German word in italics.  Perseus 71 talk 00:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead - introduces the expansion of the Luftwaffe to have its own ground troops and goes on to list some of them, but not the why of it. How about dropping the list of ground units for a sentence on the reason for these units? GraemeLeggett (talk) 09:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Primarily because Luftwaffe of this period is only a specific period of the history of modern Luftwaffe. Secondarily, it's just a slight emphasis on the distinction that the Luftwaffe of this period was a air force formed as a Strategic force/instrument part of of war and not part of Army or Navy. I guess we could call it Luftwaffe of the Wehrmacht. But then we will need to rename History of the Luftwaffe (1933–1945) too.   Perseus 71 talk 00:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The main article is an underdeveloped stub. The information there does not have proper books cited to back the facts. This article has come from a similar stub level to FAC through rigorous reviews of GAN and ACR. I am perfectly happy to move the Main Links to See also section if that helps.  Perseus 71 talk 01:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have stated the facts as provided by the books cited. FallschirmPanzerkorps Hermann Göring was formed from the merger of Luftwaffe Armored Paratroop Division and Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier Division 2 Hermann Göring as cited with four different citations.  Perseus 71 talk 01:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This FAC article isnt sufficiently consistant with the main articles, that following the link actually brings the reader into a conflict between information, while the other articles arent up at FAC the significant points in this article should have some corellation with the information in the main articles. Gnangarra 15:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Switching to Oppose
    • I feel that there are too many lists in the article, would it be possible to turn some of these lists into paragraphs?
    • In the Gruppe section, you have an uncited paragraph, this needs to be corrected.
    • In the Staffel section you have two uncited paragraphs, this needs to be corrected.
    • In the Schwarm, Rotte and Kette section you have two uncited lines that need to be cited. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Closing, no feedback from nominator since September 3rd. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 19:18, 8 September 2010 [43].

German Type UB I submarine

Nominator(s): White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 17:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because in the past few months, Myself and to a lesser extent, Ceranthor have been improving this article from the state that it was left in once User:Bellhalla left Wikipedia back in December of last year. When I found this article, no one was working on it but it remained in very good shape. I decided to further work on it by taking it through a Peer Review and promoting the remaining U-boats from this class to GA status, thus making this article the centerpiece of a Good Topic. Ceranthor may make a few passing comments and help out here and there on the FAC but he has declined my offer to have him co-nom this FAC with me. As for the article itself, the German Type UB I submarines were a series of very small U-boats that three of the four Central powers operated in the First World War. Both German, Austria-Hungary, and Bulgaria used them and it was a Type UB I submarine that became Bulgaria's first true U-boat. These small vessels patrolled the coast of Belgium, France and the Netherlands as part of the Flanders Flotilla, the Adriatic sea, The Baltic sea as part of the Baltic Flotilla, and the area around Ottoman Turkey as part of the Constantinople Flotilla. Any comments would be much appreciated. This is my first true FAC that I myself am undergoing. I was a co-nom in the FAC for the Austro-Hungarian Battleship SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand yet it failed. This time around, I will be addressing most of the comments and I hope to promote this article to FA status.White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 17:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please do. - Dank (push to talk) 22:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I feel my concerns have been adequately addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC) Comments - a neat article, and I wish you luck in getting it to FA status. Below are some suggestions/questions for further improvement. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose per criterion three:
    • File:SM U-10 (Austria-Hungary).jpg - Dead source. 1915 is a creation date. License depends upon date of author death. Who is the author? When did s/he die?
    • File:SM UB-2 and SM UB-16 in Flanders.jpg - Purpose as is does not appear to be a significant contribution to our understanding. However, given that the current infobox image has a unsupported license, this would be appropriate re-purposed in the dual roles (NFCC#3A) of primary visual identification and illustration of "One of the minor differences" - assuming no free version exists.
    • File:Sections of SM UB-13 on train.jpg - Decorative (NFCC#8). That "the boats of this class were designed to be shipped by rail in sections" is not something that requires visualization to understand. An image of sections on a rail line only serves to identify the design was successful in that regard (something a reliable source could do), not to illustrate meaningfully aspects of the actual design. Now moot, but image is not low resolution (NFCC#3B). Эlcobbola talk 20:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. This seems generally OK on first pass, but I think a few things need fixing:
  • "The process of shipping the submarines by rail involved breaking the submarine down into what was essentially a knock down kit."
  • "The boats were equipped with compensating tanks designed to flood and offset the loss of the C/06 torpedo's 1,700-pound (770 kg) weight, but this did not always function properly ...".
  • Randomly butting in here - I'm 99.9% sure Malleus means your tenses don't match. "compensating tanks" is plural, "this" is singular. Same with the "submarines" vs. "the submarine" comment above. Dana boomer (talk) 02:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Over the Type UB Is' first year of service ...". Surely the type is singular?
  • "After Italy had entered World War I ...". Called it the First World War earlier in the article.
  • "During their trials, the Type UB Is were found to be too small and too slow, and had a reputation for being underpowered". They had a reputation for being underpowered during their trials?

Malleus Fatuorum 00:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to get to them as soon as I can. I'll also be looking for replacement sources to them.--White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 15:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with White Shadows over the reliability of Uboat.net as a source. As Bellhalla has shown, that website is used as a reference by the authors of several printed books. I see no good reason why that source cannot be used in this or any other relevant article. Mjroots (talk) 19:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not seeing that uboat.net complies with WP:SPS (it has not been established that the author is an established expert on the topic); I suggest someone raise this at WP:RSN to get a definitive reading, since the fact that it got by previous FACs is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and I'm concerned that standards on Ship articles not slide. We haven't yet gotten an answer on why the published books weren't consulted instead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a mountain of evidence against you Sandy, Bellhalla's page, the ACR, the FAC. In fact, the ed17 was the one who told me about the site in the first place and told me that it was trustworthy. Several dedicated editors of this topic have told you and provided evidence on this site's reliability and yet you continue to shove OTHERSTUFF down their (and my) throats while claiming that "It is not at all clear to me that this site [Uboat.net] meets the requirements of WP:SPS". I'm getting rather tired of you trying to throw this FAC off track with your position of power in this process and I'm beginning to think about requesting input from the other delegate or the FA director. All of us cannot be dead wrong on this issue and comments like "I'm concerned that standards on Ship articles not slide" really are like spitting in the face of the members of WP:SHIPS and WP:MIL who edit these articles. There is enough sources in Wikipedia alone, much less the books that have cited the website to show that this site does indeed meet WP:RS.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 21:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re which sources are used, the fact that a published book exists is not the same as having that book to hand to check the info -i.e. if you haven't got the book, then you can't use it as a source, whereas the website is accessible online by all. Suppose a book is used as a source, and you don't have that book, then how can you tell if it has been used accurately or not? You can't, can you, but you can easily check the website if it is used. Mjroots (talk) 05:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Highest quality sources are required for Featured articles, and editors here have yet to establish that the authors of this website are published experts in the field, per WP:SPS-- there seems to be some misunderstanding here of the requirements for high quality sourcing in Featured articles, OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, WP:SPS, and the accessibility of a source (online vs. book) is most certainly not how we judge our best sourcing. I've entered an inquiry at WP:RSN, as editors have delayed here for several weeks on doing that. We need independent review of ship articles, but we get ship editors consistently supporting ship articles, with little independent review-- sourcing still needs to be resolved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reason that Ships editors generally support ship articles is because most of the major issues from our perspective have been dealt with at our ACR. I agree that fresh eyes are needed for outside perspectives, but I think that your own perspective may be distorted by the fact we may not comment at length in comparison to outside reviewers. I know that I've certainly delivered some drive-by supports for ship articles, but I reviewed them at our ACR. I reject any imputation that Ships editors automatically support ship articles; if it were otherwise then this discussion would not have begun as it would gotten the requisite number supports from project members. That it hasn't speaks volumes from my POV; you may disagree. I'm not so foolish to claim that our ACR is flawless as the quality of each review depends on the reviewers, but it certainly does eliminate many issues that may commonly arise with articles from projects that don't have an ACR process.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not at all clear to me that this site meets the requirements of WP:SPS, and the fact that it cleared previous FACs is neither here nor there (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Could we please get some independent views on how this site meets WP:SPS, particularly because so much of the article depends upon it. As SPS says, if the information were reliable, surely better sources would have picked it up; if the author is indeed an "expert" (that hasn't been established), and if his info is reprinted in other books, why aren't those books cited, rather than a dubious website? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry but I'm going to have to put my foot down on this one. I see no reason to remove Uboat.net as a source to this article and quite frankly, I refuse to do so. If this source leads to the downfall of this FAC, then so be it. The fact that the site is used extensively (while technically falling under OTHERSTUFF) in another FA, SM U-66 is enough proof IMHO that the site has and continues to meet WP:RS.--White Shadows Nobody said it was easy 20:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • One, standards for sourcing for FAs have risen in the last few years. Two, I suggest that "putting your foot down" isn't the best method of persuading others to see your side of things. There's a perfectly sensible solution, go look up the books that uboat.net uses and use them. I'm not minded to oppose over the sourcing just yet, but a cooperative attitude is definitely helpful in keeping folks from opposing. The fact is that it is a SPS and nothing I'm seeing shows that it's by an expert. I'm glad to be shown wrong on that, but the page Sandy linked to doesn't inspire confidence that the people putting out the site are experts. All over Wiki, standards of sourcing are rising, and while it may mean more work for writers, it's an important and useful thing for the reputation of the encyclopedia as a whole. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think all you're expected to do is to answer SandyG's question. The reason that the type name (Type UB 1) isn't hyphenated is that it might cause confusion with the submarine UB-1, or some such. Malleus Fatuorum 23:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't think listing each name in the last section, then having a table with all of them is the best possibility. First it is redundant, and a bit not very esthetically pleasing. How about just having a table with colored lines for non-German ones. Nergaal (talk) 18:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you elaborate a bit further on that? Thanks.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 00:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support and the comment. I'll send in a request for copy-editing in terms of comma usage :)--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 00:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disappointed Support. Sourcing at issue.

Updated comments:

  • My support was indeed on the basis of Criterion 1a alone, and I should have made this clear.
  • It is fine for members of a related WikiProject to visit and support an article, but all eyes are on the scope with which they delineate their support, and the depth of their comments. We would be delighted if such members stayed around to review chosen aspects of a few articles outside their area; that way, everyone benefits and we can gain familiarity with their analytical and critical approaches.
  • White Shadows says: "I linked Uboat.net to every submarine merely for the convenience of readers since many of them may not have Sokol or Gardiner or any of the other books mentioned in the article. While I linked every U-boat in that table to Uboat.net, I did not mean to do so as a source more than a way for readers to see info on this subject without going to the library or spending 70$ on books of this subject." But this is not the point. WP damages its reputation significantly if we get it wrong, and that is so easy to do, especially in MilHist. The cost of books is irrelevant; they are available at public libraries, and even through GoogleBooks and Amazon, where you and/or readers can in some cases gain access to excerpts that contain key search words. Where there is a more reliable hard-copy source, it should be referenced as well as a URL: the best of both worlds. I suggest this FA be withdrawn and a thorough audit conducted on the sources. In other respects, it is very close to being among our best work. Let's ensure that we can be proud of this article in terms of its verifiability, too. Please, it's worth the extra trouble. Tony (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is savable, but needs work. Here are examples from the top.

I know it was an empire; "who" is used for people. "The German Imperial Navy subsequently ordered an additional pair of boats to replace two sold to Austria-Hungary, who ordered a further three boats in April 1915." Isn't it "which"? Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. I probably shouldn't have bothered you with this. Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I guess many readers won't have a clue how to visualise what happened. A map of northeastern Europe at the time, with arrows, etc? But this is beyong the call of duty; just a thought for the future. Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your responses. Tony (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note on sourcing, will editors supporting this article please speak to the outstanding concerns about reliable sources? Specifically, "it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources ..." Are high-quality reliable sources consulted? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've become accustomed to seeing the uboat.net web site used as a reference in these submarine articles and I believed that it had been accepted as a reliable source. That the editor-in-chief, Guðmundur Helgason, is not a professional naval historian is not a matter of concern to me; he is in fact described as a naval historian in at least one article published in the Journal of Military History. What does concern me is that there's no indication as to where the information on the uboat.net web comes from. In this particular article I'm also concerned that it over-relies on uboat.net even where there are equivalent sources published by university presses, such as Fontenoy's Submarines: an illustrated history of their impact published by the University of Hawaii Press and available on Google books. On the other hand, I think it's quite likely that the information on uboat.net is accurate, so I'm not prepared to oppose because of sourcing. Malleus Fatuorum 21:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the main thing to remember here is that about a year ago, sourcing requirements for FAs went from "reliable" to "high quality reliable". So while uboat.net probably meets RS, it may not meet the high quality side. Note that I generally don't get that involved in the "high quality" evaluation, because that varies according to the subject of the article. What's "high quality" for a medieval bishop (peer reviewed journal articles, books by university presses) isn't possible in say horse biographies (the next peer reviewed horse biography article I find will be the first). Every reviewer needs to evaluate the sources in a particular article against the "high quality" criteria themselves ... Ealdgyth - Talk 21:09, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query Nice work, I've made a small tweak, hope you like it if not its a wiki. But:
"In addition, five of the German Type UB Is assigned to the Pola Flotilla" is followed by a list of just four subs.
There were only 4 U-boats in Pola (as stated earlier in the article) not five. I've fixed that.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 19:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It mentions that one sub was interned by the Dutch, can you check for more info on that incident? I would have thought that such a breach of Dutch neutrality would have been covered.
    • There was no breach of neutrality. The Dutch simply had the sub interned there.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 18:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "UB-6 ran aground in Dutch waters" If I was Dutch and in WWI I would have regarded a German submarine straying into my waters as a breach of neutrality. Hence I suspect the internment. ϢereSpielChequers 19:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Interment is when a ship or other military personnel/equipment makes it's way into a neutral nation and rather than face the enemy across the border, they "intern" themselves in the neutral nation. It was not a breech of neutrality at all. They "surrendered" themselves to a neutral nation :)--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 19:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • The relevant law is enshrined in the Hague Convention; as White Shadows says, there was no breach of neutrality. Malleus Fatuorum 19:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks for the explanations. But I read being caught running aground where a sub shouldn't be and deliberately sailing into Dutch waters and surrendering to a neutral as somewhat different. Do you have sources that say which of those scenarios applies? Or were German submarines free to pass through Dutch waters as long as they held fire and didn't run aground? ϢereSpielChequers 19:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • On 10 March, UB-6 left Zeebrugge to patrol off the Mass lightship. Two days later, UB-6 entered Dutch territorial waters after their captain, Steckelberg made a navigational error, and ran aground at the mouth of the Maas River. Because the Netherlands was neutral during the war, and UB-6 did not leave Dutch territorial waters within 24 hours as required by international law, the submarine and her crew were interned by the Dutch. The Germans protested, but because UB-6's grounding was merely the result of an error and not because of distress, the Dutch could not release the submarine. Does this explain the situation? I'd rather not add it into the article as that would be going into a bit too much detail.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 20:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • Thanks for looking that up, I'd suggest that the gist of that either belongs in an article on UB-6 or a footnote here. "UB-6 entered Dutch territorial waters due to a navigational error, and ran aground. Because the Netherlands was neutral during the war, and UB-6 did not leave Dutch territorial waters within 24 hours as required by international law, the submarine and her crew were interned by the Dutch. Germany protested, but because UB-6's grounding was the result of an error and not because of distress, the Dutch could not release the submarine." IMHO would not be overdetailed for a footnote IMHO. ϢereSpielChequers 10:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is quite a bit of repetition for example "becoming Podvodnik No. 18" in slightly different wordings is in three consecutive sections.
Too small and too slow. In what way were they too small? Also some info on typical speeds of target ships would be helpful context.
Ships sunk, damaged, or taken as a prize. Any chance of an expansion on this such as which theatres, any tonnages and whether these were military or civilian targets. Also with only a deck machinegun I'd be very impressed if they'd taken anything as prizes.
Crew of 14 - any info as to how that breaks down?
I'm afraid not. There was a captain but other than that, I'm not sure about any other crew positions/rankings within the submarines. I can take a crack at trying to find out if you want me to but don't be surprised if nothing turns up.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 03:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for checking - FA only requires us to go as far as the sources go. ϢereSpielChequers 10:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What does the 33 second dive time relate to? I'm assuming it isn't the one hour that the sub could travel submerged. Also do you know how long they could stay submerged for before running out of air? ϢereSpielChequers 21:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The 33 second dive time refers to how long it took for the sub to reach the regular test depth of 50 metres. Would you like a mention of this or do you think this is too obvious to include and goes against the "don't go into unnecessary detail rule"?--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 03:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest either a link to an explanation of that test or a footnote. ϢereSpielChequers 10:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Delegate note: I've made a request here for more eyes on the sourcing issue as I am conflicted on how consensus is leaning in terms of WP:WIAFA. Karanacs (talk) 17:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I have mixed opinions about sourcing from uboat.net. Generally, I am comfortable sourcing to an amateur historian who has developed a good reputation and is widely cited in published sources. The problem is that I can't tell from looking at pages on uboat.net, where that information is sourced from. I would be more comfortable if uboat.net and other such sources used on Wikipedia had more meticulous references for where it gets info, and that you could follow the sources. I would feel the same way about a published book that lacks meticulous sourcing, unless perhaps the author has stellar, beyond-a-doubt expertise, and don't care that in this case, it's published online. For example, here, where did he get that information? Can you find another more official or reputable source to back up this information? I think this article over-relies on uboat.net as a source. Used more sparingly, perhaps I would support this as a featured article. Right now, I can't support but not going to oppose, either. --Aude (talk) 18:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've seen more and more of these submarines go through GAN, and I'll admit, the reliance on u-boat.net has made me stop and shake my head once or twice. Might be why I've never chosen to review any of them; I know I'd get into an argument on the site's reliability. Their sources page, [47] lists a good number of sources, but one sentence that concerns me, "We also have a number of things here that are not available anywhere in print." So where are they getting their information from? Who is fact-checking everything? Are they conducting original research? Here they are soliciting writers. What kind of credential verification are they doing for those writers to keep an enthusiast who has never seen the inside of a university library from doing their writing? This honestly doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the head's credentials. Then I see pages like this one on UB-9. What did she do for four years? Was she only operational for a week, as that's how long she's listed as having a CO? The page seems quite incomplete. I won't oppose over it, but it does seem like there are better sources available, though one may have to read German to understand them. Courcelles 19:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment about uboat.net - I understand we are asked to accept uboat.net as a WP:RS based on the following:

Nevertheless, per WP:V:

Articles should be based on reliable, third-party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; [...] In general, the best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments; as a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source.

Although I can see why the site's mention in published works lends it an air of respectability, I'm currently unable to see that WP:V recognizes that as a principle determining reliability of a source for a Wikipedia article. PL290 (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: It seems to me that a "representative survey of the relevant literature" on this topic (a military vessel designed, constructed and operated by German-speakers) would include reasonable consultation of German sources. The only German source appears to be this online excerpt (a violation of WP:LINKVIO?) Was the book itself surveyed, or just that site? Whatever the status of uBoat.net, the apparent neglect of the substantial German publications seems problematic. For example:
    • Bendert, Harald (2000). Die UB-Boote der Kaiserlichen Marine 1914-1918 Mittler & Sohn Verlag, ISBN 3813207137
    • Rössler, Eberhard (1997). Die Unterseeboote der Kaiserlichen Marine. Bernhard & Graefe, ISBN 3763759638
    • Rössler, Eberhard (1996). Geschichte des deutschen U-Bootbaus. Band 1. Bernhard & Graefe, ISBN 3860471538
    • Sieche, Erwin (1998). Unterseeboote der K.u.K-Marine Podzun-Pallas, ISBN 3790906506
    • Botting, Douglas (2001). Die deutschen Unterseeboote im 1. und 2. Weltkrieg Gondolino, ISBN 3811218530
    • Basch-Ritter, Renate (1991). Österreich auf allen Meeren. Geschichte der k.( u.)k. Kriegsmarine von 1382 bis 1918. Styria im Styria Pichler, ISBN 3222117969
    • Gruber, Karl (2005). Seemacht unter rot-weiß-roter Flagge. K.u.K. Kriegsmarine. Milizverlag Salzburg, ISBN 3901185259
Were any of these surveyed? Эlcobbola talk 20:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would try to incorporate these sources into the text...if I spoke German or had access to them. I'm in no position to get them and what 1-2 books on that list I can read on Google books, is in German.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 20:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctantly agree with comments above; particularly Courcelles and Elcobbola. Haven't the time for a full search, but it seems that a book such as the following should have been consulted:
    • R.H. Gibson, Maurice Prendergast. "The German Submarine War 1914-1918". Periscope Publishing Ltd., 2002. 9781904381082
  • Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Reading through the comments above, I can sense the reluctance of editors tackling the question of uboat.net's status. On the one hand, Gudmundur is clearly a devoted student of the boats and appears to have taken considerable care in his work. Ditto White Shadows. Further, that website has been relied upon for various articles at GA (I understand) and no-one wants to see the quality status of a series of articles potentially unravel over a discussion only now taking place. I can also hear myself thinking "how will we ever consistently get English-language FAs on non-English subjects if we insist on consultation of non-English language books?" (I hoped to one day get Art of Iceland up to this standard, and own almost all the English-language books on the subject, but can see that ambition fading...)
So. There seem to be two issues mixed together here: whether the website is a "high quality reliable source"; and whether a comprehensive survey of the lit. has taken place in the absence of reference to major German-language books on the subject. I am not commenting on the latter question. On the former:
  • None of the editors / contributors appears to have relevant qualifications. Like Malleus, I agree that this in itself may not be necessary to establishing reliability, but it may influence judgement about "high quality" reliability.
  • The fact that there is a general list of sources, but no sourcing on the individual pages, I think counts against the site's quality.
  • Is it just me, or is there another factor here, in that we are relying consierably on what is in fact a tertiary, not a secondary, source? What Gudmundur has created is essentially the U-Boat Encyclopedia. Note WP:RS includes: "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources." (emphasis in original) Yet Gudmundur has used the secondary sources (acording to his sources page) to create what is now a tertiary source.
  • The strongest argument in favour of uboat.net's favour is its reputation amongst other writers. Slp1's list at the discussion here is germinal in this regard. However, the list isn't as impressive as it first appears. The first link: it certainly receives high praise from writer Gordon Williamson, though as Malleus has noted, that is in the context of online resources. Second link: didn't work for me - no relevant content. Third link: not sure that any claim to reliability can be made in the context of this particular book (on a very tangentially-related subject). Fourth link: Intute, an online resource for which I could find no evidence of its own reliability. Fifth link: a list of links appended to a commercial TV documentary webpage. Sixth link: a book about using online sources to teach critical thinking skills. I don't think the authors are frankly qualified to comment on whether the site is good or not (not that it stops them from doing so). Seventh link: A university website listing links to WWII resources: but it explicitly puts quote marks around the assessment of the site, indicating it is not the site's author's own assessment. Eighth link: Listed in a book called "The history highway 3.0: a guide to internet resources". Describes the site as "A comprehensive study of the German u-boat", which is simply inaccurate, calling the source into question. Ninth link: The Naval Museum of Manitoba's list of links that describes uboat.net as "very accurate and complete".
  • My feeling about the endorsements / praise for the site from most other sources is that they have done less fact-checking than anyone here, with the possible exception of Gordon Williamson. His alone is the only endorsement out of all the above that I feel can be trusted as coming from someone competent to reach a view. The rest are too tangential or themselves unreliable for us to use them as an assessment of whether the webpage in question is a "high quality reliable source".
  • Having said all of that, I would also comment that the dominant use of the website is for some fairly bare facts - launch dates, commissioning dates, and ultimate fate. Not sure whether this should be a factor in our deliberations about the extent of reliance on the site.

Dont know if that is any help. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Conway's All the world's fighting ships, 1906-1921 By Robert Gardiner, Randal Gray, Przemysław Budzbon is a reliable source already used to a significant degree in the article. It appears to contain information that can be used to replace stuff coming from uboat.net in some instances. I note the WP article cites uboat.net in support of the first line in the uboat table. That line includes in the "fate" section: "Handed over to Italy as a war reparation and scrapped at Pola by 1920." Yet Gardiner p. 180 has this: "wrecked 4.6.15 and [broken up] 1918" as well as the subsequent handing over and scrapping in 1920 (p.343). Firstly, we should use Gardiner in preference to uboat.net; secondly, the wrecking is omitted from uboat.net's page. It looks to me as though a bit more can be drawn from Gardiner. This will also minimise the losses from the article that would occur if we avoided uboat.net as a source altogether. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think most of us (considering this FAC has about 10 supporters and currently no opposition) can agree that it is OK to use Uboat.net as a source as long is other secondary and offline sources are consulted as well. Uboat.net is great for those who do not have any offline sources available and can be regarded as a great online source but I understand that books always trump websites. I linked Uboat.net to every submarine merely for the convenience of readers since many of them may not have Sokol or Gardiner or any of the other books mentioned in the article. While I linked every U-boat in that table to Uboat.net, I did not mean to do so as a source more than a way for readers to see info on this subject without going to the library or spending 70$ on books of this subject. Every single book on German U-boats coast at least 50$ such as Sokol's and as a result, the use of Uboat.net is sometimes needed to complete the article. It may appear that the article overly relies on Uboat.net but there are only a few instances where something is cited by Uboat.net and not another offline source. I did use it as a tertiary source for the most part but still fail to believe that the site is not of high enough quality to remove or degrade or a "filler" source. If need be, I can add in yet more pages from Conway's into the table but I honestly think that such a course of action is not needed. I will continue to use this site on any future works on U-boats that I undertake as I have yet to see someone who actually works on the subject questions the site's reliability.--White Shadows Your guess is as good as mine 10:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (considering this FAC has about 10 supporters and currently no opposition). I'm not seeing ten supporters (pls clarify), and there is plenty of concern raised by editors who aren't willing to oppose, but aren't convinced. Some of the supports are from WikiProject members who routinely support all ship articles, and Tony1 supports only on prose (I wish he'd consider all issues raised before supporting, but know from history to consider his supports only on 1a, and a 1a support from him is valuable, but limited). I'm also aware of other cases where high quality sources end up contradicting non-peer-reviewed online sources, so it is always a problem to rely on marginal online sources. These issues should be addressed; would it be possible to review the uboat.net sources and try to diminish the reliance on that source or replace them with higher quality sources? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy, "delimited" would have been a more diplomatic term, particularly since I am distraught that you should seek to undermine my work elsewhere, and since I informed you that I would ignore you henceforth. Tony (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, "delimited" would have been a better term; thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I really appreciate the restraint shown by Malleus, Aude, Courcelles, Elcobbola and hamiltonstone in not opposing, and all the work they've put in to helping us decide the question. Taken together, their arguments are persuasive. uboat.net has been relied on too much for this article, and as currently sourced, it seems to me the article falls apart if you remove uboat.net. I'm not opposed to this article ever becoming an FA, but it's going to take more than a day or two to fix the sourcing problem. Btw, what's notable about this FAC isn't that SHIPS people are piling in to support, what's notable is that they aren't. TomStar gave a weak support, and his reviewing work is incredibly valuable, he always has perceptive things to say, but like Tony1, he's not expecting everyone to take his support as a clue that they don't have to do their own work, he works as part of a team. Everyone else who normally reviews and supports SHIPS articles at A-class and at FAC is notably absent. I've never heard a credible argument that SHIPS reviewers can't be trusted, and in my 6-month history at SHIPS, I haven't seen any articles pass FAC or A-class that shouldn't have. - Dank (push to talk) 14:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For my part, I don’t consider it so much restraint as an attempt to avoid being unfair, as I’m uncertain of the extent to which the relatively new "representative survey of the relevant literature" verbiage requires consultation of foreign sources (although my personal view is that it certainly ought to; especially in cases such as this: non-English topic where a questionable source is being heavily replied upon). As a fundamental property of Wikiepdia is the ability to collaborate with geographically and culturally dispersed editors, however, I don't accept as valid issues of inability to read a given language and inability to access “foreign” works, whether cheaply or otherwise. Have any Germans (e.g. via Babel categories or Wikiproject Germany) even been asked to assist? KuK, for example, appears highly involved in Marine articles at de.wiki and has an English Babel level 3 (advanced). Has s/he been asked whether s/he has sources or could go to a library and get them? How much effort has really been put forth here? Эlcobbola talk 17:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:51, 7 September 2010 [48].

Dhaka Residential Model College

Nominator(s): Tanweertalk 10:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have been working for this article from early 2009. From then the article has received two peer reviews and also been copy-edited. It was listed as a GA in early 2010. I've relentlessly contributed to this article with a view to making it a FA. It's now a comprehensive article about Dhaka Residential Model College, a high school in Dhaka which is celebrating its 50th anniversary this year. I would love if I'm showed the problems that may be act like impediments in this way. I am confident that it meets all the FA criteria and I hope you agree. Thanks for your understandings. -- Tanweertalk 10:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: 2 dabs (President's Award and Viva voce; no deadlinks. PL290 (talk) 10:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Issues concerning dabs have been solved. Please let me know where in the article http://www.drmc-edu.org has been used. -- Tanweertalk 16:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The last line of the infobox. Ucucha 18:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) It's given as the link to the college website (last entry in the infobox). The link checker currently reports no deadlinks for me, though I notice it says this link has a "Connection issue", evidently something to watch out for with this tool in future as I cannot in fact connect to the site from the infobox link. PL290 (talk) 18:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Such things can evidently depend on who is trying to get to a link. The drmc-edu.org link still doesn't work for me. Ucucha 12:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources issues

  • There are numerous citations to "Srijon" and "Shandipan". What are these - books, journals?
  • Format consistency is necessary, e.g. in ref 39 you have "Srijon (2002), p. 40" while 62 reads Hossain, M (2002). "DRMC wins BTV quiz contest". Srijon: 35,36.
  • What makes http://www.storyofpakistan.com/person.asp?perid=P017 reliable? This biography of Ayub Khan is far from scholarly.
  • Why is Banglapedia a reliable source?
  • What makes http://www.tariquerahman.net/index.php/profile reliable, and why is the spelling in the reflist different from tht on the site itself?
  • The Parjatan Bichitra, if it is a newspaper or journal, needs to be italicised.
  • The college's website is used as a sources, and should not therefore appear under External links.

Brianboulton (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:

  • Srijon and Shandipan are both annual magazine of the college. The name Srijon was used until 2002, since 2003 the name is Shandipan.
  • I take your concern for StoryOfPakistan seriously. So this ref has been canceled and I've used http://pakistanherald.com/Profile/Muhammad-Ayub-Khan-1180 instead as this is the official website of Pakistan Herald, one of the newspapers of Pakistan.
  • Banglapedia, written and edited by experts in concerned arenas, is the national encyclopedia of Bangladesh. Please read the article Banglapedia to know more. So there is no doubt about the accuracy and reliability of the encyclopedia.
  • http://tariquerahman,com is the personal website of Tarique Rahman. Spelling issue has been solved.
  • I would like to know about this matter in details. The college's website has been used as source. But why it shouldn't appear under External Links. Please let me instead, know what should appear?
    "External links" should provide links to associated websites other than those used as sources for the article if you think they may be of some general interest to readers of the article. It's a bit like "Further reading", but it relates to online material. Brianboulton (talk) 18:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we generally make an exception for links to a topic's official site, though. Ucucha 18:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With regards. -- Tanweertalk 16:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:

  • Parenthetical information seems like poor style for the introduction, particularly: "when Bangladesh was still a part of Pakistan (Bangladesh gained independence in 1971)" seems like unnecessary information for the lead.
  • "The school was the only one in Bangladesh under the direct control of the Ministry of Education, and it continues to enjoy this special status as of 2010" - could this be reworded to: "Since it's creation, the school has been the only one in Bangladesh under the direct control of the Ministry of Education"?
  • "DRMC is one of the most competitive schools in the country" - the source for this does not actually comment on DRMC's competitiveness.
  • "The Government of Bangladesh recognized the school for its strong performance in the Higher Secondary Certificate examination in 2008" - The source seems to indicate that it is specifically the Dhaka Education Board awarding this; if that's correct the sentence should be changed.
  • "Dhaka was the capital and the largest city of East Pakistan" - is this necessary background information?
  • The information on the number of current students is imprecise. Can you find a source that doesn't round to the nearest thousand?
  • "a four-storied house named Dr. Muhammad Shahidullah" - is that the dorm's name, or is it named after him?
  • "emphasizes student discipline in all of their activities" - what does this mean and why is there no source for it?
  • "In addition to a terminal exam, two class tests are held each ....... scholarship examination." - this is unsourced, as is the following paragraph.
  • Much of the admission section is unsourced
  • Why are extracurricular activities like quizbowl given so much coverage? Are they really that important? Similar concerns about the alumni association.
  • If alumni are notable, they should be linked to their own articles, even if they are red links. I think.
  • "Many senior government officials and public representative of Bangladesh are Remians" - unsourced

~~Andrew Keenan Richardson~~ 02:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong oppose - POV and sourcing
    • Although the article seems to be mostly sourced, many of the sources don't check out
      • Campus section: ref4 is to Ayub Khan and doesn't fit any of the two lines before it. 37 only covers the infirmary and not the other claims about the football field etc. "The school has its own water-pump for the water supply of the college.[37" ref is actually about the hospital. So the first half of the para only has one sentence actually reffed, the others have window-dressing refs that don't work. SEcond half is Bengali, so I can't check it
      • "Houses" The second half of the first para and the whole second para, is not at all in the ref attached. 75% of the section is attached to bogus sources
      • Exam stats table. None of the sources give teh % pass rate of 99%+. Only the number of GPA-5s are given. What is the source for the claim of near perfect success???
      • Sports section ref does not give the result of the football match
      • Admission: The sources only say that there is an exam and that supply < demand, not all the rest as well
      • Start of academics. POV claim about great discipline and large library not in ref. r16 only covers the last sentence not the other stats before it
      • History. "DRMC was originally established by the Ayub Khan, the first military leader of Pakistan,[4] to provide education for army officers in East Pakistan. The school, and later the college, were modeled after public schools in the United Kingdom (according to the British Public Schools Act 1868), particularly Eton College. The house system was designed to resemble Eton's. After the independence of Bangladesh, a board of governors was appointed with the Education Secretary as its Chairman. " not in the source "DRMC was established as a fully residential educational institution with five dormitories, but because of a significant increase in the number of students over the last two decades, the school also offers a non-resident option for students. Built in 1960, Qudrat-i-Khuda House was the first dormitory for students in grades 3–7. Another dormitory named Ayub House was built in 1961, capable of accommodating around 200 students of the same grades" not in the ref afterwards
  • Is the DRMC Preospectus [12] actually in English or Bengali. I opened it but it shows stuff in the English alphabet but meaninglessly. It is not tagged bn atm YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:13, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • POV
      • "Dhaka Residential Model College's results from 2005 to 2009 for the Secondary School Certificate level examinations are as follows:" misleading. Those are its ranking in Dhaka, not all of Bangladesh as implied by no conditions being attached
      • "DRMC publishes a magazine annually, Shandipan, containing school related news, poems, articles, stories, science fiction, jokes and other items of imterest, written by the students, teachers and staff. The magazine reflects the creativity of the college, and provides an opportunity for students to express their thoughts. " Are they allowed to criticise the school then?? If so, the school saying the students are free is not indept
      • " won championships in 4th International World Youth Mathematics Intercity competition,[66] National Math Olympiad 2008 and Math Olympiad 2009 hosted by Bangladesh University of Business and Technology" The 4th IWYMIC winning thing isn't in the source, and the 2008 NMO isn't either. Can we have indept RS for claims of success etc?? Most/all schools and unis lie on their CVs, unfortunately
        • "Dhaka Residential Model College is noted for its academic performance and extracurricular activities, having produced many notable alumni including leaders in business, the military and state and national politics as well as senior government officers, scientists and engineers.[5][6" source only says it is "coveted" and doesn't say anything about influential people
        • "The institution was awarded 'Best College' in the 5th National Debate Festival 2010, the largest debate contest in the country organized by the National Debate Federation Bangladesh" - nonsense the source says that it was won by another school; this is in the lead
        • Other victories mentioned in the lead, with no independent source

In short the article has lots of unsourced stuff, or nominally sourced stuff linking to bogus cites. Many claims of great achievement link to sources that say no such thing, or to school sources. This article gives the perception of a puff piece, especially as all of the wrong/dubious information are positive claims and make the article more incorrectly POV, and there is nothing negative in the article YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:13, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. In addition, the claim that "DRMC is one of the most competitive schools in the country" goes to this which says nothing of the sort. Another one is that the source for Mohamed Mijarul Quayes being a alumni does not mention it, so it's useless. The "Best College" source says "Best College- Eden Women’s College, Residential Model College, ...", which presumably refers to this one, and to multiply winners. Imagine the offline and other-language sourcing just as bad. As pointed out, sourcing is extremely shoddy, and the article should be stripped of its GA status. Christopher Connor (talk) 10:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Eden thing is in Barisal, another city, so someone else won. Yes this article should not be GA. It is a joke. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 10:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:51, 7 September 2010 [49].

Albert Stanley, 1st Baron Ashfield

Nominator(s): DavidCane (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another in my series on the early history of London's transport system. An exceptional administrator, Stanley was running the Detroit tramway system at the age of 20, the New Jersey tramway system at 32 and most of London's railways, buses and trams by 38. From 1916 to 1919, he was a member of the British cabinet as President of the Board of Trade. In the 1920s he was the driving force behind the creation of London Transport and led it through its "golden era". For something to do in his spare time he was a director of the Midland Bank and ICI. DavidCane (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • No publisher for the Spanish American War Centennial site. (http://www.spanamwar.com/yosemitecrew.htm) and what makes this a reliable source?
    • It's there to link to additional information. I've found the book that the website references online, so I've linked to that, although his mini-biography there is a bit inaccurate about his knighthood, which was not a baronetcy. I've moved the Centennial website to the External links.--DavidCane (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes http://thepeerage.com/p7739.htm#i77386 a reliable source? (Hint... it's not.)
    • Just there to provide the date of the wedding and confirm the name of his second daughter. Barker, Who Was Who and the Times Obituary say that the marriage took place in 1904 and that he had two daughters but are not explicit on the date of the marriage and the daughters' names. I've found a Court Circular in a 1923 copy of the Times that gives both of their names, which can be used instead.--DavidCane (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Likewise http://openplaques.org/plaques/360?
    • The English Heritage citation provides a reliable ref. This was added by another user, but as it provides a link to a photograph of the plaque and a location map, I left it in. I've moved it to external links. --DavidCane (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Overall, looks like a very finely researched article, splendid job. My one suggestion is to clarify his term of service at the head of transport things - which establishes his importance and gives the reader a little more reason to be interested in this fellow. At the moment, the lead looks like this (and I know you may still be working on it):
In 1907, his management skills led to his recruitment by the struggling UERL which he quickly helped recover from a financial crisis and then managed during the London Underground's greatest period of expansion.
He was Member of Parliament for Ashton-under-Lyne from December 1916 to January 1920 and was President of the Board of Trade between December 1916 and May 1919.
Two questions spring out at me here: first, you don't say exactly when the Underground's "greatest period" was; and second, you don't indicate that he had a long career at the helm of things nearly until his death - long after 1919, the last date mentioned in the lead. All this is brought out eventually in the course of the article, but it's nice to have a quick summary at the start.
I think you could easily improve the lead in these respects with just one more sentence or so in the lead, nothing too elaborate. Cheers! Textorus (talk) 15:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. When you know a subject well, it's sometimes difficult to see the obvious bits that others are likely to find important. Of course his dates need to be there. Done.--DavidCane (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know just what you mean. I just created the article Pensacola and Atlantic Railroad - which is not ever intended to be FA status. Still, if your time permits, you might give it a glance and tell me what obvious omission(s) I've committed. Grin. Textorus (talk) 00:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:51, 7 September 2010 [50].

The Harbingers

Nominator(s): d'oh! talk 01:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because after a copyedit and a bit of a expansion since the last FAC, I feel this article meets the FA criteria. d'oh! talk 01:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
  • Footnote 6 - "The Gatekeeper..." the "original" link doesn't work any longer, might as well remove it.
  • I have a concern about the number of sources consulted here. What I'm seeing is that there was an article in this horror fanzine Bloodsongs and that's pretty much the only major discussion of the game outside the game booklet/game website.Is there nothing else? I did a google news search and turned up nothing at all.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are right BGG is not a reliable source as its a wiki too I believe, but the reviews on BGG was used to show the reception of the game by gamers. WOF was the biggest fan website for the game on its release as such the creators did a few interviews with them. Only the interviews was used in the article. For footnote 6, the dead link was removed. I do have other sources for this game, like an article in the Business Review Weekly, which back ups most the other sources, but didn't add much more other than one piece of information, which is why it was largely left out. I also just added info from an article in the The New York Times. 15 years has past since this game was released, so sources was a bit hard to come by. Thanks for the comments. d'oh! talk 15:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WOF and BGG still won't work as sources, however, as you need to show a reputation for fact checking, etc. Right now the vast majority of the article is sourced to primary sources - the game itself. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WOF and BGG has both been removed. The use of primary sources doesn't appear to be a issue in other FA articles, but if its is a issue I will try and address that issue. d'oh! talk 04:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, that particular FA was promoted 2 and a half years ago. I'll leave the last issue out for other reviewers to consider. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK in terms of prose. A few points:

  • "Players who fail to become Harbingers within ten minutes must play the main game as "Soul Rangers"—miserable scavengers who play to their own rules." It's towards the top, so I bothered to scan for reps. "who obey their own rules" might avoid play play?
  • top ten best-selling games.
  • Typo space after atmosphere) ,
  • then then. Why not remove both, since we know its a sequential narrative.
  • "until either they are released by the Gatekeeper,[18] or they collect the Keystone" ... perhaps "until either they are released by the Gatekeeper[18] or collect the Keystone"
  • six different colour Keystones: the difference in colour is the requirement? If so, "six Keystones of different colour" might be clearer.
  • Should Video board game be a "main article"? I'd have thought a link within the text, or in "See also" at the bottom.
  • Does the fair-use image pass our WP:NFCC 3 and 8?
  • Down the bottom, a link to "List of Australian inventions" (must be a small list). Isn't this of sufficient interest to tell us during the narrative? Tony (talk) 10:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All done. The images should pass both #3 and #8, since both the game board and video is detailed in the article, and the images aid the readers understanding of the game. Trying to combine the two images or drop one will confused the reader and mislead them, into thinking the game is only a board or video game. Thanks. d'oh! talk 11:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 08:28, 7 September 2010 [51].

Santana discography

Nominator(s): Taro-Gabunia (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... Taro-Gabunia (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Discographies are, by definition, lists, so the proper venue is featured list candidacy. But don't bother just yet. The lede needs to be three-four solid paragraphs, against the single sentence it is now. The references need to be proprly formatted with title, work, author, publisher, publication date, and access date. (Many won't have all of those, but as much as possible needs to be given.) The chart positions need to be cited. There's a ten chart max for discogs, where you have 20 in one table; far too wide for usability. When it's ready for FLC, don't start the list with "This is a list..." find something more interesting for the lede sentence, see recently promoted discogs if necessary. This is a worthy article to work on, but it's not yet up to scratch, and when it is, FAC is the wrong venue anyway. I'd suggest you withdraw this candidacy. Courcelles 05:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—2c: inconsistent. Large number of works cited lack author or editor attribution, publisher, date.


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 08:20, 7 September 2010 [52].

Jack Coggins

Nominator(s): Avi (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I have just completed the implementation of most of Ottava's excellent suggestions after the last, failed FAC. At this point, I think the combination of the suggestions from the last FAC together with the critical review on the articles talk page, makes this ready once again to brave the rigors of FAC. -- Avi (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: If the lead fulfils its required function of providing a concise overview of the whole article, it doesn't really matter how many paragraphs it's got. Does it do the job? is the question. Personally, I'm more concerned about the scrappy nature of the "Biography" section. Such sections need to maintain a continuous chronological or near-chronological narrative. In this case we more or less jump from 1933–34 to his marriage in 1948. The actual biographical information is very thin throughout the section, with significant events such as his loss of an eye reported almost laconically. The sources for information on his early life appear to be two magazine articles, and I can't help doubting the accuracy of some of the information (for example, if he left England in 1923 aged 12, he wouldn't have been old enough to have attended an English public school). There are also prose oddities, such as "Jack was born in the Sydney's barracks". The article's milestone history shows that it hasn't had a peer review since 2006, its GA status dates from 2007 (re-confirmed 2009) and it has failed two FACs. At this stage, in all honestly, it doesn't read like a finished article. Definitely should have had a new peer review before coming here, and maybe that would still be the wiser route. Brianboulton (talk) 00:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please check the talk page. This was subject to a detailed review by User:Ottava Rima in 2009. Whatever one may think of him, he had a fantastic eye for copyediting and prose. As for the articles, they are both well-fleshed out and perhaps the only extant biographical information outside of the obituary. Reliable sources are reliable sources. -- Avi (talk) 00:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying hard not to oppose this, but I find the above reply somewhat complacent. "Reliable sources are reliable sources" is a meaningless phrase; sources can be "reliable" in terms of WP definition but can still give incomplete or even inaccurate information. Sometimes it is necessary to dig deeper than the most conveniently available sources. Ottava's prose review of 2009 is very much weighted to the "Illustrator, author and artist" sections; the biography section comments are little more than nitpicks and don't address any content issues. There are significant matters to deal with in this section, including the accuracy of the information, the filling of lacunae and questions of balance—at present the loss of his eye gets the same degree of attention as the "meaningless" naming of his house. Brianboulton (talk) 09:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This isn't ready, as BrianBoulton is almost too kind to say above. What's clear is that the sections dealing with Coggins' later work are substantially more developed than the biography and early career material, making the whole article seem uneven. A few specific examples:
    • The lead is to short to adequately summarise the article, but what's worse is rather untidily constructed. For instance: "He is also known for his books on space travel, which were both authored and illustrated by Coggins." Using "both" here makes it look like Coggins only wrote (why "authored"?) two books.
    • "After moving to New York, Coggins enrolled at Roslyn High School in Roslyn Heights". Did he move to New York on his own? What about his parents?
    • "Coggins's interest in sailing and maritime subjects began in London when he would sail model yachts on Round Pond in Kensington Gardens." What is "would sail" meant to convey that the rather more direct "sailed" does not?
    • "During the early years of World War II, Coggins took a sampling of his war illustrations to Worthen Paxton". Why "sampling" instead of "sample"?
    • "Appearing on July 15, 1940, this was the first of many war time illustrations for LIFE. Some of Coggins's works are in the Anne S. K. Brown Military Collection." I just can't see the connection between those two sentences.
    • "Because of the quality of his maritime illustrations, Coggins was invited by publisher Doubleday to provide artwork for a children's book about the U.S. Navy; the author being Fletcher Pratt". Can you see anything wrong with the way that sentence ends? "Being Fletcher Pratt"?
    • "During the late 1940s and early 1950s Coggins' marine art was featured on covers of Yachting Magazine[28] and other publications, as well as on advertising material.[29], and his science-fiction art illustrated covers for pulp science fiction magazines". Not sure what's happening with that sentence, or the punctuation there. I can't quite discern the meaning of "science-fiction art illustrated" either.
    • "Due to reduced interest in his pre-war work, Coggins applied for a position teaching watercolor at Hunter College." Moving swiftly over the misuse of "due to", what has the reduction of interest in his pre-war work got to do with anything? What about his war work, or his post-war work?

Malleus Fatuorum 14:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 02:42, 4 September 2010 [53].

University of Texas at Dallas

Nominator(s): Oldag07 (talk), Stan9999

I am nominating this for featured article because it has gone through enormous improvements over the last several months, and all concerns from past peer reviews have been met. Oldag07 (talk) 22:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - While it is a good start, I think this nomination is premature. The last peer reviewer promoted this article to C-class just four days ago and recommended GAN as the next step. I have to agree. I share the reviewer's concerns about the lead and overall quality of prose. But my primary concern is the very heavy reliance on school websites as sources. Surely reliable third-party sources could be found for more of this article. I would kindly suggest withdrawal, more work on referencing and prose, and a pass through GA before relisting here. --Nasty Housecat (talk) 18:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good points all around. The reliance university articles have on university websites seems to be a common concern. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that this is a very young school with only a division 3 athletics program. I would appreciate more opinions on this page before closing this nomination. Thanks Oldag07 (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • UT or University of Texas? Better to use the second, and be consistent.
  • See comments on "idiosyncratic capitalization of the definite article" below. It is very common to call this school "UTD". Less so "UT Dallas", but it is still pretty common. There is a need for consistency, but there is also a need to use different names for the same thing over and over. At a glance, "UT" is used just as much as "OSU" is used in Ohio State University and "UT" is used for the University of Texas at Dallas. Oldag07 (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Cecil and Ida Green ref (current ref 9) is actually a book, so should be formatted as such.
  • What is ALTA? UTIMCO? ASCE? CSISS? Please spell out abbreviations used in the references.
  • Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper. You also need to be consistent in this... you've got some instances of Bloomberg Business Week italicized and most not.
  • You cannot say to see another wikipedia article for references, you need them here in this article. (Current ref 35)
  • Current ref 47 (Kiplinger Top 100) is borked somehow.
  • Current ref 104 (Construction goes up) lacks a publisher
  • A concern is that large chunks of this are referenced to either sources from UT Dallas itself of to the websites of the particular organizations/companies that are being described. This is primary sourcing, not secondary sourcing, and surely there are published works on this that can be consulted. If nothing else, the various university sites aren't going to cover any controversies that might have arrisen.
  • I noted there are around 40 outside sources referenced . UTD doesn't have the extensive rich history as some of the older universities, major long standing sports programs, extensive list of notable people and has only been admitting freshmen for 20 years. Due to the short period of existence outside published works are hard to come by.Stan9999 (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
∗∗∗

A couple of notes:

  • I figured I’d link to the astronaut guy’s article in the photo caption lest readers assume he’s utterly non-notable.
  • Cleaned up some really weird table markup, but then I consider HTML Tidy more a safety-net than a hammock. Unpopular view, I know.
  • We sure don’t need a dozen section links to the same article.
  • I’m not sure whether we should respect their idiosyncratic capitalization of the definite article.
    • There was a big debate (two sections) on this page on that issue. The compromise was to respect the university's naming conventions throughout the article. However, we would keep the "The" out of the title of the wikipedia article. Still more input on that debate would be appreciated. Oldag07 (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article teems with glowing praise. Nothing about crime on campus [57] [58] [59], budget cut protests [60], etc. You know, something to re-assure readers this isn’t a paid advertisement.
    • Agree with the statement. However, note that the budget cut protests occurred at the University of Texas at Austin, quite a different place. Admittedly it did say that the costs were higher at UTD. I am not sure if the crime rate notably high on campus. None of the university FA's I have read, mention those stats. Still, I will look for more stuff to try to give the page a more NPOV. Oldag07 (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Waterview attracted a certain amount of controversy, being dubbed "the Dorm from Hell" in an April 2005 article in the Dallas Observer" was noted. I am unable to find anything else like that.Stan9999 (talk) 18:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Student demographic table is flawed in that it uses mutually non-exclusive terms. Also, I’m sure you mean “Anglo” as a euphemism for White American of any ancestry but that’s a misnomer many would find offensive.
  • {{Reflist|group=Note}} was empty, so I removed the section containing it. You’ll want to re-insert it if you plan to use that ref group.
  • ==External links==, when present, are always the last section.

―cobaltcigs 08:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the section called “==External links==” which I moved to the end but which previously was positioned much higher. ―cobaltcigs 19:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose—Poorly written.
  1. I am inclined not to go along with some pretentious insistence by a university, and even more by a "system", on the upper-case "The". This has come up before at the MoS. I see there's no "The" sticking out in "the Graduate Research Centre", etc.
  2. "With a number of interdisciplinary degree programs and over 50 research centers and institutes its curriculum is designed to allow study that crosses traditional disciplinary lines and students participate in collaborative research labs." This is a clumsy and over-long sentence. "More than" would be nice. A comma after "institutes" to avoid the jostling of two nouns in a longish sentence. The last clause doesn't flow from the previous clauses.
  3. Where there's more than one "and" in a sentence, and one is ranked more highly in a structural sense, a comma after it would be good: activity", and the
  4. "High research activity" is pretty awful out of context, anyway ... is it cloud research? Better a "high" level of research activity.
  1. Comma after "commencement" and after "alumni".
  2. Remove "located".
  3. "acres" is an epithet qualifying "industrial park", not a noun itself, and should be singular. Remove "located" again.
  4. Bad sentence: "Almost 600,000-square-foot (56,000 m2) of new facilities have been added from 2007 to the summer of 2010 with another 280,000-square-foot (26,000 m2) planned to be completed by 2012." No hyphens. Here, "feet" is the noun, so plural. "planned for completion".

On this basis, the whole article need urgent attention by unfamiliar copy-editors. Tony (talk) 01:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actively search for them: creates linkages with others who can be future collaborators. Try looking through the edit-summaries of the history pages of similar FAs and GAs to identify the word people. Tony (talk) 04:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Some quickies on the Athletics section:

  • Before ASC is used as an abbreviation, there should be a definition provided after the initial use of the full American Southwest Conference. Putting the abbreviated version in parentheses immediately afterward is the most common way of doing this.
  • "Baseball and softball also made its third consecutive appearance in the ASC post-season tournament." Doesn't work well because baseball and softball are two different sports; therefore this should be "their third consecutive appearances...".
  • Remove space before references 117 and 118.
  • "before falling in an OT loss." In this case, I think general readers will understand this better with "overtime" instead of OT.
  • Intramural sports: The first sentence of this sub-section could use a capitalization check, as there are some words that probably don't need the capital letters. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:24, 3 September 2010 [61].

The Wizarding World of Harry Potter

Nominator(s): Themeparkgc  Talk  06:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets the FA criteria. I have worked on this article to reach it to GA status. Most recently I requested a peer review which resulted in a variety of recommendations that I have incorporated. Themeparkgc  Talk  06:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: There are grievous grammatical errors and riotous rhetorical disasters in each of the first three sentences of this article. Please archive expeditiously.—DCGeist (talk) 07:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, suggest withdrawal - this article is not ready for Featured status. A quick scan reveals immediate problems with structure, spelling and prose, such as:

  • "After the closure of Harry Potter Movie Magic Experience in Australia, the rumours returned." - no rumours have yet been mentioned.
  • "Appraisal by both Harry Potter fans and general guests alike of the attention to detail and the immersion that the land provides." - not a complete sentence.
  • "This popularity has lead to long queues ..." basic attention to spelling.

PL290 (talk) 08:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I peer-reviewed this a couple of weeks ago; my comments are found here. In my review I refer to "the major overhaul and expansion that the article requires if it is to be considered as a FA candidate". There has been some expansion, and an effort has been made to tackle the specific sample issues I raised, but the extent of the work required to bring the article to FA standard has perhaps been underestimated. The prose is ragged in places, as noted above, and needs the eyes of an uninvolved editor. The existence of so many citations in the lead indicates that this section is not doing its proper job of summarising the main article content, per WP:LEAD – the citations should be in the article itself. The article has undoubtedly improved since I last saw it, but it still needs a lot of work, including an independent copyedit. Brianboulton (talk) 09:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Redlink image? large, unnecessary non-free file lacking a rationale? Random bold text? This needs serious work, there's a lot wrong at the moment. A lot of the sources are very questionable. Harry Potter fansites? YouTube videos? Excessive use of primary sources? Loads of theme park websites of questionable reliability? Formatting on references is also poor... 1, 2, 30, 40 and 42 for example. This needs a lot of work before it is ready for FAC. J Milburn (talk) 09:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please end the pain: Several edits have been made to the lede. The first sentence is now acceptable. The rest is a minefield.

  • Second sentence: "The area is one of seven themed areas within the park." Not fluent English. Try "It is one of..."
  • Third sentence: "The concept of a Harry Potter theme park attraction first occurred within Universal in late 1990s or early 2000s." Not fluent English. People have concepts. Concepts occur to people. Concepts may be raised within organizations. Concepts do not occur within organizations.
  • Third sentence (again): "The concept of a Harry Potter theme park attraction first occurred within Universal in late 1990s or early 2000s." Basic grammatical failure. "In the late 1990s".
  • Fourth sentence: "Upon approaching the author of the books, J.K. Rowling, Universal discovered AOL Time Warner owned the rights to the franchise." Failed narrative. What "books", pray tell?
  • Fourth sentence (again): "Upon approaching the author of the books, J.K. Rowling, Universal discovered AOL Time Warner owned the rights to the franchise." False sourcing. Two inline citations follow this sentence. Neither source mentions AOL Time Warner.—DCGeist (talk) 10:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest withdrawing and finding more reliable sources for the information. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Under-referenced and full of grammatical errors. I'd give more detail, but I feel it would be pointless; this article needs serious work. I agree the article should be withdrawn. Tom (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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