Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

Speedy deletion of Vasant Vihar

Moved to editor's user talk page

Thirupuliyangudi Perumal Temple

Moved to User talk:Keegan (talk page of the administrator who deleted)

G13 Drafts

RfC added to CENT (and I also put in the RfC template).

--QEDK (T 📖 C)

The rule currently reads:

This applies to rejected or unsubmitted Articles for creation pages that have not been edited in over six months (excluding bot edits). This criterion applies to all WikiProject Articles for creation drafts in project space and project talk space, as well as any userspace drafts and drafts in the Draft: namespace that are using the project's {{AFC submission}} template.

This is now out of date considering the various permutations and changes in the AfC project. Some people are interpreting it as not permiting the deletion of Drafts that do not have an AfC banner, although that is now how most of them appear. I propose to replace it with the much simpler

This applies to rejected or unsubmitted drafts that have not been edited in over six months (excluding bot edits). This criterion applies to all pages in the Draft or Draft talk namespace, all project space and project talk space, all drafts in the Wikipedia Talk:Articles for creation/ naming system, as well as all userspace drafts.

This was the original intent, and the various ways of naming them shouldn't matter. I consider this just a technical change to avoid ambiguity. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I've been reviewing a lot of old userspace drafts recently, and I can't see a good reason why they shouldn't be covered by G13. Let's resolve any ambiguity.--Mojo Hand (talk) 18:38, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support - I have been reluctantly declining G13s on abandoned drafts with no AfC template, because I presumed the words "that are using the project's {{AFC submission}} template" must have been inserted for some reason during the debates when G13 was first set up, and I don't like to IAR speedies. But I don't see what that reason is, and I'm happy to remove the words from the definition of G13. JohnCD (talk) 19:19, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support as well, as I had recently been asked about that, if they were still G13 applicable even with no AfC banners and tags. Aside from that, I have had no serious troubles about this but simply clarifying it for future use would be beneficial. SwisterTwister talk 19:48, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support per all the above. STALEDRAFT should apply regardless of the way the page is formatted or where it is. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support A good clarification and updating. Without this, Draft: will get into the mess AfC did. Peridon (talk) 20:43, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

But to make it clear, I'm referring to Draft: space there, not user space. I wouldn't argue about two years inactive for user space, but I think one year is realistic. Peridon (talk) 11:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - no reason why a draft must have {{AFC submission}} attached in order to qualify as a stale draft. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:52, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose many people have drafts in development that take longer than six months between edits. Such rules should only apply if the user responsible has gone inactive for two years. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
• I'm willing to support if you drop userspace from the list. Userspace in most cases should be up to the user to manage, and we shouldn't interfere without good reason. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 01:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support I see no good reason to keep stale drafts in any namespace. — JJMC89 (T·C) 01:37, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support. I'll be glad to not have to flood MFD with requests to delete all these old drafts. Category:Stale userspace drafts still has just over 40k pages and that's going back to 2004 so this will allow for much quicker resolution of those really old pages. However I do note that WP:STALE requires one year of inactivity before considering moving or deletion or whatever so it may be necessary to set stale to six months to harmonize these rules. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:50, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support but limit userspace ones if the user is similarly inactive for six months For reference, User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report is a report of all draftspace articles that are more than six months since their last edit but do not have a AFC tag and thus not G13 eligible (although a number have been deleted under G13 for some reason). There's similarly over 40k userspace pages that have not been edited in over a year just so people get the numbers involved here. This would actually restrict AFCs in userspace more but I think if the editor is inactive and the draft is inactive, six months is sufficient. They can always be restored. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Technically I'm voting below on the revision so no double voting. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:06, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - Many editors take wikibreaks or even temporary retirement for far longer than 6 months. I would also speculate that some newbies dabble in editing, get scared off, and then return much later. Both types of editors are exactly the ones we need to not annoy/antagonize by deleting their work just because... because why again? Userspace and draftspace are default NOINDEX and there is more than enough server space. I agree with Graeme Bartlett that two years of inactivity is more reasonable. A2soup (talk) 07:41, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - per A2soup and Graeme Bartlett. 2 years of inactivity is a much stronger sign. No need to be impatient with a slow moving user. Trackinfo (talk) 08:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I am revising my opinion to a stronger Oppose with no allowance for a time period. I relate this beyond theory to my personal experience after this initial remark. I discovered the existence of a draft article deleted under G13 here. It took me weeks to get that restored and it was not a simple request and reply. Most editors would not have gone through the trouble or could even be expected to figure out HOW. The piece of trash draft became Richard Ganslen. In my case this "stale draft" was a blocked draft because the novice editor didn't know how to source things. Hostility by experienced editors does not help. Actual help was needed and failed to materialize. The failure of editors to assist brought the G13. That work would easily have been lost. G13 should be removed. There is no such thing as a stale draft. Time is not relevant. Find another criteria to delete it under or leave the work to be available for subsequent editors to build upon. Trackinfo (talk) 12:14, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

• Supporting changed version: [...]as well as all userspace drafts as well all userspace drafts involved in the Articles for Creation process or of users inactive for at least two years. Drafts that have a reasonable chance to survive in the main article space should not be deleted, but moved to the main article space instead.

There is no need to disrupt active users. And to delete drafts that could be articles in mainspace instead is not good for the encyclopedia. --Müdigkeit (talk) 08:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose per A2soup and Graeme Bartlett; whereas 6 months was ok for keeping AfC tidy, it feels too short for any and all draft articles. I'd support the change in wording if the time was, at minimum, one year. Sam Walton (talk) 09:02, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• strongly oppose Deleting any "draft" after 6 months in a user's space, even no matter whether is active or not seems a clear no-go to me. If anything it leads to needless aggravation of active authors (our most important resource) with providing any real benefits. In addition it is imho good practice and a matter of good collaborative climate not to mess with other folks user spaces, unless there is an important policy violation or another really problematic issue. An otherwise unproblematic text, which simply lacks edits within the last 6 months provides no such reason.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Per Kmh. In fact we shouldn't be deleting anything in userspace ever. I didn't realize G13 deleted those too, that should be reversed.

• Support if userspace part is limited to long-time inactive accounts with no substantial mainspace contributions. —Kusma (t·c) 10:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose: As worded the policy would catch rejected policy drafts in project space (WP:NLAW?) and provides no clear way of distinguishing between draft essays and essays in place (WP:NII jumps right out at me). Furthermore, active users with forgotten drafts in their userspace shouldn't be disrupted. Instead, they should be reminded that they have a draft-like page in their userspace that hasn't been edited in a certain period of time, along with the suggestion that if they are abandoning that work, they could tag it for deletion. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 10:47, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose as written. We want to authorize people to speedily delete, without any discussion or review, drafts by active editors in their own userspace? That is completely inappropriate, not to mention unnecessary. Are these cases really so unambiguous that speedy deletion is appropriate? Is this such a big problem that speedy deletion is necessary in the first place? Thparkth (talk) 13:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose The policy was only made for a specific purpose, to filter stale mainspace requests from IPs. I see no reason why we're seeking to extend G13's coverage. This should be a community-wide RfC if it has to be accepted because it affects everyone at large. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 13:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support - but only if the draft has been untouched for over one year, in which case it's pretty stale. JMHamo (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - There is no good reason to delete userspace drafts for being stale, U5 and G11 already cover almost all unwanted content that can be created in userspace. Unfinished drafts in userspace should not be deleted for inactivity because it serves no purpose, you aren't de-cluttering a project space and you aren't saving space on the servers, you are just wasting admin time. Winner 42 Talk to me! 15:53, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - If the wording was a little more clear that it was only user space drafts that were created through the Articles for Creation process, and not all userspace drafts, that are eligible for db-g13, I would support this. Also, opposers please remember that these deleted drafts are easily refundable if the users return after a break, and that a large notice with a button to push to get the draft back is always left on the user's talk page. I agree that the draft shouldn't have to have an AfC banner on it, provided that it once did have one. I don't consider it a waste of time to delete these; I think it saves time in the long run for our active regular users, as many of these pages would otherwise end up at WP:MFD and have to be read over and commented on by several people. —Anne Delong (talk) 17:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per many of the above. Mucking about with the userspace is a non-starter. I might be persuaded to consider it in the other cases if the editor has been inactive (0 edits) for 2 years, and then only if they get pointed to WP:REFUND. If there's some draft that really does need to be deleted out of the userspace, it likely violates some other criteria that would serve. CSD is for unambiguous cases, and when we go about trying to figure out if cases are unambiguous or not - guess what? They're not. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 17:49, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support as proposed, and per Beeblebrox. The creator gets a warning about impending deletion just as they do for any other CSD criterion. For what I have seen of AfC (and that's quite a lot actually, having deleted hundreds of G13 already), many draft creators have little or no intention of returning to Wikipedia. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Speedy deletion of userspace pages without good cause is disruptive. For example, DGG has had the page User:DGG/smell in his user space for over 8 years now. I suppose that it has something to do with an article and so is some kind of draft or notes. Removing such content without any discussion would be impertinent and offensive. As 99% of the content in mainspace is well short of perfection and mainspace is our priority, we should let sleeping dogs lie. Andrew D. (talk) 23:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Userspace is absolutely beyond the remit of your proposal, DGG. I have a couple userspace drafts I was able to rescue from the clutches of AfD. I can't necessarily get them fixed up and published in six months, nor should I have to. Next time I would recommend wordsmithing your ideas before your request comment. Chris Troutman (talk) 09:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support all, removing clutter is good. Stifle (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose as currently worded. I work with student editors who, more often than not, develop drafts in userspace and then copy portions of their articles (or sometimes the whole thing) into existing mainspace articles. When you have several editors working together to craft an article (or a portion of one), attribution history is only properly preserved in the sandbox edits. Given the current wording, I could see a lot of these sandbox articles being deleted, thus breaking the attribution histories. Guettarda (talk) 19:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I might be inclined to support the variations below which do not include userspace, but I see no reason to add a CSD which allows someone to delete pages in userspace. Protonk (talk) 19:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose for a start this is not some kind of correction to return to the original intention of G13, it's a massive expansion of the criterion. From a very early stage discussions about the proposed G13 consisted solely of AfC submissions, not other kinds of drafts. AfC is used by unregistered or very new editors who aren't likely to stick around for very long, if one of their drafts is inactive then it is very unlikely to lead to a usable article, especially if it's been rejected. This proposal on the other hand would allow us to delete drafts in the userspace of active experienced editors, which isn't the same thing at all. I know we don't allow article-like content to remain in userspace indefinitely, but six months is far too short to conclude this. Hut 8.5 22:29, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I have no objection to the general idea (in particular, I'm fine with the proposed expansion as far as the Draft:namespace is concerned), but userspace pages shouldn't be G13 deleted unless they have the AFC template and got rejected or abandoned. Don't touch userspace drafts unless the creator has specifically put it up for AFC, unless it has bigger issues than mere abandonment, or unless you think it's important enough to warrant the time for an MFD. Moreover, who's going to decide whether a userspace page is a draft or not? Where's the line between a draft page and a tracking page? A quick check of the history of User:Nyttend/Pennsylvania NRHP/Philadelphia 2 will demonstrate that it's a tracking page (it's a group of sites with {{GeoGroupTemplate}}, and I remove sites that I've visited), but what about my sandbox? At points it's been a tracking page, at points it's held obvious drafts, and at points it's been ambiguous. Consider [1], which is similar to how it was for a total of a few years. Is this a tracking page, or a draft for a List of Something, or both, or neither? Is User:Nyttend/KY Courthouse Project merely a collection of images, or the draft for a list of courthouses? Having someone come along and tag these for G13 would be thoroughly unhelpful and rather starkly at variance with how we've always handled userspace. Nyttend (talk) 19:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose (for userspace drafts only) per Nyttend. While I kind of support this proposal for other kinds of drafts (and honestly I never understood why this wasn't done sooner), userspace drafts are trickier. For example: does this apply to drafts which are on user sandboxes; in fact, does this proposal affect user sandboxes? There are also cases where these user drafts, while not being actively worked on, could eventually be worked on in the future, and having it deleted just for the user to request a refund (if possible) is kind of a waste of time. Perhaps if this only includes userpage drafts which went through AfC, then maybe that would be understandable, but what about those that didn't? The proposal does not seem to differentiate between drafts created using the AfC process and non-AfC userspace drafts. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 14:02, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support. This is logical, and let's all remember that there is a really simple fast-track process for recalling deleted stale drafts - which, incidentally, shows that most of these deletions are uncontested. Guy (Help!) 00:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Cut the clutter. And: easily restored via refund. Lectonar (talk) 10:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose any deletion of drafts where contributing editors are still active or where the page could not be deleted were it in mainspace. WP:REFUND is useless to anyone except the original editor, as he/she will be the only one who knows the draft ever existed. SpinningSpark 15:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support DGG's change as written. Although I oppose existence of this criterion at all, there is consensus for it and it is sensible for it to apply to all pages which are clearly drafts rather than just those which happen to be in one particular space. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:20, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

but question - why would a draft be in project space? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

AFC drafts all used to be (and some still are) in the AFC project space. SpinningSpark 21:37, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment As per the above discussion, the only place that it makes sense to extend G13 is in userspace where the user specified that the draft was to be guided by the AfC process.  In those cases, the article can be speedily restored with a button if the G13 speedy deletion was inappropriate.  Those who think inactive drafts should get more attention need to work together to do just that, as being inactive is not a problem with the draft.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:49, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't like the idea of using G13 for unsubmitted drafts, and this proposal would greatly increase the scope for speedy deletion of unsubmitted drafts. In my opinion, it would be better to write a bot which automatically submits all unsubmitted drafts (at those with AfC templates and those in normal AfC namespaces) if the draft hasn't been edited for some time. That way, the pages would be reviewed, and eligible for G13 half a year later if rejected and still abandoned. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:41, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose any application of this to userspace drafts. We are all volunteers and should not have arbitrary deadlines placed on our volunteer work. Etamni | ✉ | ✓  19:43, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support as written, though I wouldn't oppose alternative #2, either. Particularly, I would rather have more time allowed if we're going to somewhat expand/clarify the definition and intent of G13. Even though it doesn't "cost" us much to allow this stuff to remain, we really shouldn't have to be a collection of cruft from abandoned drafts and nonsense like "His hero is his grandmother. He is most likely one of the most influential characters of our time, with very little publicity. He will most likely go down in history as a lover, thinker, giver, mentally gifted young man." Or examples like this article that has been around since May of 2014, and the IP editor that created it hasn't touched it since. For Etamni, I think that if something shows potential or activity, someone isn't likely to CSD it. Anyway, that's my two cents. Chrisw80 (talk) 07:51, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
  • @Chrisw80: You are incorrect in saying "that if something shows potential or activity, someone isn't likely to CSD it". The whole issue with G13 is that the CSD nominations are made automatically by bot and are mostly deleted procedurally without review. If the page has had recent activity (six months) it is not even eligible for G13 so that doesn't come into it. SpinningSpark 10:43, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

That simply isn't true, Spinningspark. Look at Category:AfC postponed G13 which contains 2,167 articles that were tagged G13 and which an admin or editor decided to save or postpone for another six months. Some of these articles have been postponed several times. It is incorrect to say that admins delete G13 tagged drafts without review or this category would not exist. I know that I have postponed at least two dozen drafts that I thought had potential to be actual articles in the main space. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:17, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say that no article ever gets reviewed and saved, only that most don't. My experience of reviewing G13s is that currently 10% are saveable. In the days the backlog was being gone through maybe higher at 15%, especially the older ones which could be very badly reviewed. If every admin was reviewing at that rate there would be tens of thousands in that category, not a miserly couple of thousand. In any event, there is no requirement for anybody to review at any stage, either the proposer or the deleting admin. Which is bound to lead to good stuff being thrown out. SpinningSpark 01:04, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

• • @Chrisw80: Actually, they tag for speedy deletion or nominate at XfD stuff that should be kept, all the time. They also tag and nominate cruft that should be deleted. The Gilberto Neto article (linked above) can be (and probably should be) nominated for deletion at WP:MFD. Anything in user space that needs to be deleted can be nominated using the same process. The point is not to have one person nominating for speedy deletion, and one person with the bit agreeing, and nobody else gets a say, and the only recourse is WP:REFUND. Etamni | ✉ | ✓  11:34, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose G13 applying in userspace unless the draft is tagged with an AfC template. Draft-deletionist editors are not discriminating between userspace notes and userspace drafts, and userspace pages were never the monumental problem that motivated the creation of G13. In fact, I remember support for G13 being conditional from some on any editor being able to move their work into their userspace to avoid G13. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose, and the author of the RfC is wrong saying that the original intent of G13 was to delete all stalled drafts; the WP:Draft namespace is not solely about Articles for Creation, and has never been. The wording restricting it to articles with the {{AFC submission}} tag was deliberately crafted through careful consensus so that the speedy criterion couldn't only possibly apply to articles that came through the AfC process, and not drafts from other sources such as decisions at Articles for Deletion. Greatly expanding the criterion in such way would run against this careful consensus that achieved at WP:Draft. As other have pointed out, drafts that really need to be deleted will fail some other content policy, and at the very least a formal discussion should be held, instead of allowing to speedily delete any possible kind of content regardless of its nature. Diego (talk) 10:51, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support. This was the sense of the original plan and users shouldn't be able to evade deletion of cruft and substubs simply by virtue of them not having a particular tag. Stifle (talk) 09:15, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
• Not Sure - If this is intended to apply db-g13 to drafts created through the Wikipedia:Articles for creation process, whatever namespace they end up in and whether or not the original AfC template has been removed, then I agree that that was the intention of the original proposal which set up db-13 and I can support that. However, there was specifically no the intention to make drafts not created in this way, and also never submitted to AfC, eligible for db-g13. I'd like to be sure that only Wikipedia:Articles for creation related drafts are to be considered for deletion under db-g13 before supporting.—Anne Delong (talk) 00:02, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Alternative proposals

A1: DGG's original (see above)

A2: This applies to rejected or unsubmitted drafts that have not been edited in over one year (excluding bot edits). This criterion applies to all pages in the Draft or Draft talk namespace, all project space and project talk space, all drafts in the Wikipedia Talk:Articles for creation/ naming system, as well as all userspace drafts.

A3: This applies to rejected or unsubmitted drafts that have not been edited in over six months (excluding bot edits). This criterion applies to all pages in the Draft or Draft talk namespace, all project space and project talk space, and all drafts in the Wikipedia Talk:Articles for creation/ naming system.

Thoughts? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:17, 25 January 2016 (UTC) @Peridon, Oiyarbepsy, Ricky81682, Samwalton9, and Kmhkmh: Would either of these address your concerns? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:20, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose all as not adequately defining what a "draft" is when it lacks the banner. My main concern is what happens if someone tags a failed policy draft in project space (which for the most part are kept for historical purposes), or what to make of project space essays that often have the look of essay drafts. Unless the proposal clarifies that G13 applies only to "draft Wikipedia articles" (or some other language that would make it clearer that it did not apply to non-articles, such as policy drafts) regardless of namespace. Perhaps it sounds like I'm being unduly anal about wording here, but the nature of CSD as speedy and subject to the sole judgment of the admin who acts on the request, clear language goes the furthest towards ensuring consistency in application between admins. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:02, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose all for now - It's a CSD criteria that's not typically on my radar because I see it as exclusively the domain of AfC. It sounds like some people want a better process for cleaning up old draftspace and userspace content, but I don't think it should be CSD (except insofar as it would fall under one of the existing CSD criteria like G11). I find Ricky's suggestion of "Support but limit userspace ones if the user is similarly inactive for six months" and Nikkimaria's A3 to be the best options presented, but I'd prefer to see PROD expanded for use this way (MfD certainly seems cumbersome), rather than use CSD. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:22, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose all I still see no good reason for a CSD in the user space simply based on edits/(tempoarily) inactivity. It is even questionable whether there is any need to clean up inactive user space at all. That spaced is not getting released anyhow and doesn't required additional resources nor will it be taken over by another user, so there is usually no need for any cleaning. Micromanaging a user's "private" workspace absent of any serious policy violation is generally bad idea, that will aggravate some of our editors. In addition it seems rather questionable that request for streamlining the AfC process now expands to include users not participating in it and interferes with their workspace, which from my perspective is completely unacceptable (not to mention that such a step might require feedback from the larger community anyhow and sort of vialotes the Uncontestable criteria at the top of the page as well)--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose all. Oh dear. As a minimum we would need a highly non-contentious understanding of what a draft is (or is not) otherwise everything in userspace untouched for six months would be liable to speedy deletion. Would we think all these over six months old would be liable? Or how would we sort the sheep from the goats? DGG can see what has been deleted but suppose an ordinary user had created User:DGG/LG, would it be reasonable to speedy it? Thincat (talk) 16:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Conditional support for A2 - I will support this if project space is left untouched and anything in userspace is limited to those pages with the {{AFC submission}} template. The WikiProject might be working on something and decide to put it on the back-burner while concentrating its efforts elsewhere. Any deletion requests in project space should come from the project and should not be eligible for G13. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 16:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I may be missing something here, but if something says Draft: in front of the title, how can there be any doubts about it being a draft? Peridon (talk) 22:07, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Weak support for A3 If the point of this exercise is to help AfC clear out drafts, unsubmitted or not, I can go along with deletion of abandoned drafts. That said, pushing editors into the AfC process and then deleting their unfinished drafts runs against the spirit of WP:DEADLINE. Chris Troutman (talk) 09:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support, in the order A1, A3, A2. WP:DEADLINE applies but so does WP:WEBHOST. If they haven't fixed it in three months I doubt they are going to, and a lot of these articles are, to put it charitably, not a great use of server resources. Guy (Help!) 00:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose any deletion of drafts where contributing editors are still active or where the page could not be deleted were it in mainspace. SpinningSpark 15:28, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose  For drafts where the community is identified as the champion for the article, inactivity is not a problem with the draft, but is rather a function of the editors available to work on the draft.  Those who think inactive drafts should get more attention can work together to do just that, and if not, might consider supporting the pace of those working on the drafts.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:57, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
• still oppose a s written Actually i have little to no objection to posted posted detailed clarification. However the clarification is not part of the policy suggestion and the text of the policy is not written in such a way that the clarification is or will be obvious to everybody. In other words with current formulation unintended(?) "misinterpretations" are to be expected and I see absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be formulation that explicitly states the affects (or lack thereof) on the user space and avoids any room for misinterpretation.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:35, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose all of the variations above. The original G13 criterion was carefully an intentionally limited to pages created via the AFC provcess, and IMO it ought to continue to have that restriction. If you want to include drafts initially submitted by the drafter or at the drafter's request, but which were later removed from the process by editing to remove the template, that would be alright with me. But not this kind of wholesale expansion. DES ^(talk) 00:00, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Explanation and Revision

The point of my proposal was not user space--the point was items in draft space that lacked AfC submission banners, because their removal under G13 has been challenged.

• Revised proposal

This applies to rejected or unsubmitted drafts that have not been edited in over six months (excluding bot edits). This criterion applies to all pages in the Draft or Draft talk namespace, all project space and project talk space, and all drafts in the Wikipedia Talk:Articles for creation naming system.

The status of userspace drafts needs separate discussion. Are those who oppose the original aware that several people active at AfC, not including me, have been moving thousands of userspace drafts to Draft space giving the reason: Preferred location for draft articles? DGG ( talk ) 16:48, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

and other people have been moving other people's unready drafts to main space to try and get them deleted more easily. Thincat (talk) 17:04, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

That seems even more questionable and imho all the more reason to follow a general "hands off" rationale as far as the user space is concerned.--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

@DGG, your statement above; "...several people active at AfC, not including me, have been moving thousands of userspace drafts to Draft space giving the reason: Preferred location for draft articles?" is not accurate. The established AFC process includes moving only userspace drafts that have already been submitted to AFC for review, to Draft-space. The standard edit summary for such moves (built into the AFC submission template) actually says: "Preferred location for AfC submissions". AFC only becomes aware of, and interested in, the existence of drafts when they are submitted for review. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:24, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Comment this proposal I might support, efficient cleaning up of the project space (rather than the user space) is appropriate and something we need. However the question remains whether deletion should be merely on inactivity over a certain period. Suppose we have lengthy draft of good quality that is about 80% complete but for whatever reason has been inactive for 6 months. Is it really wise to delete such a case speadily? I would doubt that at first glance. However if all people actively involved with the AfC project see it that way, then that's fine with me.

As far as the mass moving is concerned, no I was not aware of that and it first glance it strikes me a bit dubious. Even more so if this becomes simply a tool to sideline opposition against CSD in the userspace. Simply moving drafts from the userspace to the project space, because you couldn't delete them there but you will be in the project space seems inappropriate to me.--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:11, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Still oppose as written, sorry. How do you identify a draft in project space, if it is not clearly labelled as one? There is no objective, incontestable answer to that question, and as such, this is not a plausible CSD criterion. And are there really so many aged-out drafts in project space that they must be speedily deleted without review?

Everyone should remember that there is currently no project-wide consensus that drafts should even be deleted for mere staleness, not even in the relatively-new Draft: namespace. That alone should indicate how inappropriate it would be to even consider making this criterion apply to all drafts. G13 as written is specifically intended only to apply to drafts which are unambiguously part of WP:AFC, and not to any others. This is how it should be.

This is not the place to discuss AfC itself in detail, but there has never been a consensus for placing all drafts in all namespaces under the domain of AfC, and no consensus requiring regular editors to use or interact with AfC at all if they don't want to. That project's participants are overreaching if they are moving other people's drafts into its system without their agreement, or seeking to delete non-AfC drafts under AfC rules.

Thparkth (talk) 17:34, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I see I need to explain in more detail.

1. G13 was adopted in the first place in order to remove a backlog of many tens of thousands of hopeless discarded drafts that nobody was working on , and nobody was likely to work on. It was only approved on the condition that the people who had edited it would be notified one month in advance, as this is being done by Hasteur's bot. It also has the condition that any draft removed under G13 could be restored on request, the same as Prod.
2. I and 3 or 4 other people systematically try to rescue any such drafts that are potentially usable, or at least postpone their deletion for additional six month periods. I have done this for about 10% of the stale drafts I get to, & I think this has now resulted in at least thousand rescued or postponed drafts from my screening, and at least an equal number from others. Of these, about 1/3 of which have been turned into articles or redirects, or used for merges. The others have either been given up on and deleted, or remain as part of he backlog. We need more people examining these and willing to work on this.
3. These drafts were originally in Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/ space as a kludge. There was consensus to replace this by Draft space, there was consensus to move the existing ones, gradually not in a mass, because it was realized most of them would end up deleted or accepted by normal processes. At least 95% of those present at the time have now been accepted, deleted or moved.
4. The question I sought to address now was what to do with the drafts in Draft space (or the old WT:AfC/) that have never actually been submitted. These are even more likely to be truly abandoned than those that have been submitted, and several people have been gradually listing them for G13 and the >95% of hopeless ones have gradually been deleted, by almost all admins who encounter them, on the basis that this was really part of the original intent. By proposal was basically meant to formalize that.
5. I agree there has never been a consensus for moving all userspace drafts to Draft space, nor in my opinion should there be. Someone who wants to work into an article can quite reasonably do this.Draft space is mainly intended for beginners and those with a coi, for which approval is desirable before they get into main space, as most of the ones by beginners and almost all the ones with coi should never get into main space. (The accepted standard by everyone at AfC is to move to mainspace any draft that would probably be accepted if brought to AfD; the usual interpretation is about 60 to 70 % probable, though essentially not a single one of the ones I have personally moved have been deleted except for a few cases where others caught copyvio that I had missed.)
6. It is accepted that stale drafts should not be kept indefinitely if nobody is going to work on them. They've been being removed for years, usually by MFD, sometimes by various speedy criteria. We've rarely deleted any by active editors. I personally almost always !vote at MfD to keep any which might conceivably become an acceptable article.
7. I consider moving them to draft space merely for the purpose of deletion improper. Moving them to draft space if the original editor is totally inactive so people can see and work on them is another matter, and I think should be encouraged.
8. I'm pinging other people involved who have not yet commented: Kudpung, Hasteur, Brianhe . DGG ( talk ) 19:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi DGG,

G13 was always intended to apply exclusively to drafts created through the AfC process, as the RFC which gave birth to it made very clear. My main objection to your proposal in its various forms is that it removes any language restricting the applicability of G13 to AfC drafts. That is a rather major change.

I think if you had included language like "drafts created through the AfC process" in your proposed change, you would not be facing much opposition. So I must ask, is that actually the point of your proposal - that G13 should apply to non-AfC drafts - or rather is this just an unintended side-effect of rewording G13 to include AfC drafts that currently don't meet G13 on a technicality?

Thparkth (talk) 19:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

You've got it exactly:My point is indeed to deal with those AfC drafts that have not been submitted. Can you reword it to say just that? I'd be grateful. DGG ( talk ) 19:50, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose again: I'm still not seeing an attempt to address the problem of how to identify a draft Wikipedia article versus something else that shouldn't be G13'd. You need to define draft in a way that doesn't leave it to the reviewing admin's judgment. As I have pointed out twice already, there are so many things in project space (let alone userspace!) that can be called "drafts" that absolutely should not be CSD'd. I don't feel comfortable leaving that to the discretion of any hypothetical reviewing admin. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 19:55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Neither supporting or opposing any of the proposals, however several users are correct in that G13 and Draft namespace were created with the explicit requirement that the namespace and CSD criterion would not be applied to anything outside of AFC submissions. There have been several preivous attempts to put non-AFC members of Draftspace under a "Stale" speedy rule, but each time it has been thuroughly shot down because of the same initial promises about what Draft Space and G13 were going to be for. I have no problem creating a new CSD rule that explicitly calls out non-AFC draftspace articles (and willing to code a bot that processes them), but I strongly suggest that these have a longer stale-ing time because the users are not explicitly warned that their draft can be deleted if not worked on the way that AFC submissions are. Furthermore I oppose trying to jiggery-pokery the G13 rule to cover both cases as non-afc submissions do not have a way to procedural scan for a category of when they were created or last submitted, making it a absolutely large web interface query to run. I could use the same query that generates MusikBot Stale Drafts and fork forward on that if the community does endorse the solution to delete old non-AFC draft namespace articles. Furthermore Anne's mention above about drafts that have been removed from AfC, I have also proposed a rule that prevents drafts from being remove from AfC and had that shot down because nobody is compelled to use AfC for creating pages. And with that I'm going to vanish again because I'm supposed to be not here (See User page). Hasteur (talk) 21:01, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment (EC) - the drafts that we've been seeing at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion are old user drafts created by the article wizard - exactly the sort of thing that would probably be created through AFC nowadays. For an example, see User:Bekerhank/Noah Sennholz as one that did not qualify for G6 (though possibly could qualify for U5). This is not the most pressing issue for Wikipedia, but it does make it hard to separate the wheat from the chaff at Category:Stale userspace drafts.--Mojo Hand (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

MFD provides a better example of the drafts at issue here. Looking at the most recent ones right now, there are old drafts in draftspace like the one being discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Hodge spectral sequence and old userspace drafts (which doesn't seem popular to speedy) like Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Vassyana/Early Christianity right now. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:08, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I think the editor who created Draft:Hodge spectral sequence, TakuyaMurata, is emblematic of the problems with this proposal. He seems to create many one-line drafts and immediately let them languish, but occasionally come back to them. Most importantly, he is highly aggravated when people try to delete his drafts for staleness. See his response to the (currently improper) G13 deletion of his Draft:Principal orbit type theorem. This prompts the deleter to lash back when another of Takuya's drafts arrives at MfD. These arguments are exactly the sort of thing that drives editors away. Why cause these frustrations? Wouldn't it just be better to let Takuya's drafts alone? A2soup (talk) 15:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely he should be left alone, and anyone messing with him should be given a severe trouting. This is exactly why I have been saying that any draft (AFC or not) that has an editor that is still active should not be eligible for a stale deletion. SpinningSpark 15:40, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support expansion to add non-AFC drafts in draftspace alone to G13. Draftspace is fairly obviously limited to drafts; no one is storing project pages or other things in draftspace or shouldn't be anyways. I think that would be sufficient for all parties as WP:STALEDRAFT would then permit the "adoption" of any page (after one year inactivity on both the page and the editor) with an adoption being conducting by movement to draftspace (with or without AFC) after which point if the draft is subsequently not edited for another six months from there, an admin can speedy delete it. I think that's a fair middle ground here since MFD is still always an option for old problematic drafts. We can add a requirement to WP:STALEDRAFT that notice must be provided before any such transfer (MFD clearly requires notification, movement doesn't) so the editor is notified at the time of movement and not just when G13 comes in play. I'd suggest that someone request an outside editor to close the prior proposals as rejected and withdrawn for the most part. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

No, the intent of the moving option at WP:STALEDRAFT is to allow other editors to complete a draft, i. e. such a move should occur if there is another editor available who want to complete the draft. It is not intended to simply move any inactive draft automatically to draft space to potentially delete it there later on. Taking a draft and completing it is clearly beneficial for WP and more or less follows the users original intentions. However simply moving a draft out of the userspace and potentially deleting it down the road, has no obvious benefits for WP.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say the point is to move a draft to have it deleted in six months; if you wanted it deleted, take to MFD today. That would be an odd passive-aggressive and not particularly productive thing to do. If people wanted to do that, they could be mass moving a lot of stale drafts right now. The point is that the original editor, after their own inactivity, and after the movement, has at least six more months before the draft is even eligible for speedy deletion. If someone moves it and works on it for even a month or two, then we're talking 19-20 months since the original creator hasn't touched it before we're considering it for speedy deletion (and that's even presuming it isn't mainspaced or moved again into someone new's userspace or a project or whatever else people do). That's why I don't think its necessary to extend the time limit at the start since there's so many stopgap requirements before a draft is even in this scenario. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:06, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes it would be passive-aggressive move, that's why it might be a good idea for the project rules not to sanction it or at least provoding the opportunity to formally justify such behaviour.--Kmhkmh (talk) 08:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Question: If the problem is that drafts created through AfC aren't tagged as AfC drafts, then shouldn't the project (or a bot if possible) be tagging these AfC drafts as such (ie, with {{AFC submission|T}})? Wouldn't this solve the problem without changing the wording of G13? - Evad37 [talk] 03:02, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

They aren't created through AFC. They are either directly created or moved there. The question is whether draftspace is presumably for AFC drafts or can it be a dumping ground of sorts for the thousands of pages like Draft:Burrill B. Battle that are there. Those are essentially the same as userspace pages in that there's no automatic process to review let alone delete them so it's all about finding them and taking them individually to WP:MFD. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:37, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Or simply leave them where there are. There's neither an objective need for the project to delete them nor a consensus.--Kmhkmh (talk) 06:49, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment, since I've already opposed. An IP editor raised a good point, and I'm struggling to come up with an answer - what harm do old drafts in the userspace cause, exactly? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:36, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

There's no real "harm" in letting all drafts remain here eternally I suppose. I think the point is to give some tools to the people who go through the stale drafts to find ones that people might work on. It's the same reason G13 exists. That said, I see the point in the opposes in that userspace has a different uses and expectations, and it's not always clear was is a draft article.--Mojo Hand (talk) 15:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Well though the (deleted) IP comment was unacceptable in tone I do understand and to degree share its general sentiment, that is I neither really understand nor condone this urge to "clean up" other people's business (aka userspaces). The imho weak argument is, that some people want to comb through the userspace to salvage/complete articles and that this activity becomes somewhat "easier" if unsuitable drafts/articles in user space get deleted. While actually salvaging old stale drafts is certainly a desired activity, it is not clear however whether we really need to delete (nvm speedily delete) all the rest in the userspace. And what's worse this activity somewhat conflicts with traditional "hands off" approach for userspaces (as long as their is no abuse) und ignores that userspace and project space have different functionalities and requirements. Imho it is fair to assume that most editors will view a deletion in their userspace without their consent as a rather unfriendly act. This makes in particular some of original suggestions for G13 (6 months inactivity of the draft in userspace without even considering the activity of the editor) highly problematic. Now the revised versions do at least partially address that but I still fail to see a really convincing need for having these deletions in the first place or to paraphrase the IP: Can't you simply leave the userspace alone?--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

You're also ignoring the fact that certain content is deleted in mainspace because it's never sufficient for an article, say for example, articles on a rapper who's never released an album or say an obscure video game that doesn't have any sources about it. The problem is whether that same content (ignoring the U5 solution) just remain in a userspace version if it wouldn't survive in mainspace. That's ignoring the fact that it's NOINDEXed and the like. There's also numerous pages there that exist following an old deletion discussion so if consensus is to delete an article years ago, should the user then just get to keep it around forever in userspace? As to the "ease" of use issue, we aren't talking a few hundred pages; we are talking literally tens of thousands of userspace drafts that are identified because they are tagged which is likely a minuscule amount of actual userspace drafts out there. And there's never been a "hands off" approach when the user leaves, everyone is generally hands off for active users (even then, we had the userbox wars years back showing that it's not as hand off as people think it is). If the concern is that one year from your last editing is not enough to be considered inactive, that's a different matter. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

If you are concerned that the tagged userspace drafts are cluttering Category:Stale userspace drafts, wouldn't a better solution be to simply untag them? It accomplishes the same result (uncluttering the category) while being much less potentially aggravating for the author and it doesn't eat up valuable admin time. A2soup (talk) 19:18, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

First, do you propose that no one ever be able to take on the work that someone else started and improve it? Else, what am I untagging? Drafts that specifically aren't CSD material nor copies of current mainspace material nor ready for mainspace nor drafts that I think someone else could take on? Why not just propose deleting the entire category then so that I can't actually do anything if that's the goal? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:49, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

It would be ideal for other people to take on the work, no problem with that. I'm not sure I understand your objection that you wouldn't be able to "do anything" - what is it you want to do? If you want to improve a userspace draft, go ahead and do so. If you want to make the categories less cluttered (and don't think the draft has much potential), untag it. If you want to start from scratch, you don't need to worry about it since userspace drafts, being subpages, don't block each other. This last situation might be an issue in draftspace, where names do block each other. In that case, you could just blank the page and start from scratch (who knows, there might be something useful in the old draft you missed and will be grateful to have in history), or you could go MfD if you're really concerned with your created articles count. But to answer your question, if all you want to do is delete stuff, I have no problem with you having nothing to do in userspace (or draftspace) outside of the AfC process. A2soup (talk) 00:07, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Conditional support and re-word. I think that as long as this specifies that it's meant only for drafts created via/for the AfC process, there should be no problem with this. There's a squidgy sort of area that needs to be discussed when it comes to userspace drafts, but that's a separate discussion entirely.

This applies to rejected or unsubmitted drafts that have not been edited in over six months (excluding bot edits). This criterion applies to all pages in the Draft or Draft talk namespace, all project space and project talk space, and all drafts in the Wikipedia Talk:Articles for creation naming system that were created via the AfC draft creation process. This would also apply to any articles that were declined at AfC, where the article was submitted for approval.

This would cover the following: anything created via the AfC creation process and anything that was declined at AfC. Now the reason I'm mentioning this last part is because I've moved articles to AfC and tagged them with {{AFC submission/draft}}. This speedy criteria would not cover articles that were tagged in this manner and not submitted via AfC, just the ones where the editor chose to submit it for review since that would be considered a tactic agreement that it was then an AfC draft. If that seems a little bit too much like wikilawyering, feel free to remove that last part. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't that more restrictive than what we currently have? Unsubmitted AFC drafts, regardless of creator, can be deleted via G13. You're requiring that the tagger and author must match, right? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:42, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• It's not intended to be - my thought is that it's going to cover anything that would be along the lines of an article that was moved to AfC to prevent mainspace speedy deletion. Basically, I mean that if the article was moved and not edited or otherwise submitted for active review, it could possibly fall under the veil of a userspace draft. That's a tricky area though. I've edited it to just say articles submitted and declined at AfC. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• This could also cover the ones that are in the userspace (ie, User:Tokyogirl79/Random quirky title) that were submitted for AfC but aren't at something like Draft:Random quirky title. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:45, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose as written - Any and all documents in Project space are the responsibility of the Project. If all language regarding project space is removed from this rewording, I can support it. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 17:49, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I would just like to see G13 (or something similar) extended in a fashion much like T3 so I can tag drafts (in userspace, etc.) for deletion when an existing article already exists. It seems detrimental to have many copies of an article's content floating about when one could just as easily work the content into the existing main page. If there is an existing speedy criteria for such I would like to know (I could not find it). I would like to get rid of things like User:Akash1806/Django (web framework) in light of Django (web framework). 50.126.125.240 (talk) 01:46, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose the premise of this discussion. No draft article should ever be deleted if it could not be deleted were it in mainspace. Deletion because it has not been edited in a long time, or because the editor has apparently left Wikipedia are both unhelpful actions. Those would not be valid deletion rationales for an article, they should apply even less to a draft. I am fine with nominating a stale draft for speedy deletion because the nominator thinks, for instance, that it is non-notable, but I am far from fine with deleting them just because they are old. I agree with user:DGG's assessment: about 10% of G13s I review are salvagable. Unfortunately, most of them don't get reviewed by someone trying to salvage. That means we have deleted tens of thousands of potentially viable pages. SpinningSpark 15:57, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support We aren't the place to host a page about your friend's band --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 21:24, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • @Guerillero: Nobody is arguing that we should be, that is a strawman. The question being addressed is whether drafts should be deleted because they are stale regardless of their content. SpinningSpark 21:37, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Whether they should be speedy deleted regardless of their content. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:37, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support I can not understand complaints about these proposals based on perceived lack of clarity over what a "draft" article is. It is simply any article that is in Draft space, this is not an attempt to comb through editor's subpages and delete articles they are working on. These proposals are meant to cover stale drafts that reside in the Draft space that have never been submitted to AFC. That's all it is. I don't know whether it should apply to Wikipedia space or WikiProject space but I think the main focus is to clear out old, abandoned article drafts in Draft space. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

That's exactly the problem though. If this is really all that there is, why can't it be stated clearly to avoid misunderstandings? Why do we keep seeing where from the text suggestion as written it is not clear whether or how the user space is affected?--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:29, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support per Liz. I think this revised version is a very simple approach and that our sysops have the ability to use common sense to define what a "Draft" is. I can see from the previous proposal that there is a lot of contention over this applying in userspace. This proposal is better in that it takes userspace out of the equation all together. We can either get consensus for an alternative userspace criteria, incorporating some aspect of user inactivity, or we can just continue to handle userspace drafts at MFD. --Nick⁠—⁠^Contact/_Contribs 19:52, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
• oppose as written. If this were modified to limit it to pages created via the AfC process, or submitted for AfC review, that would be different. But anything and everything in the Draft namespace, plus several other locations, judged purely on namespace apparently, is simply not acceptable. It is far too likely to delete pages with potential along with stuff that in fact should be deleted. DES ^(talk) 00:06, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Removal of STALEDRAFTs

Given the complete rejection of this concept, I've proposed deleting the entire idea of STALEDRAFTS at WT:UP. There is no support for deleting old drafts so we could get rid of the idea entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.121.147 (talk) 19:04, 27 January 2016 (UTC) This is a longtime banned user thus is of no benefits to this, see this for clarification. SwisterTwister talk 06:39, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete G13 completely Stale drafts do no harm. If they don't do any harm, there's no reason to delete them. If there's some reason to delete a stale draft (BLP violation, copyvio, whatever), then fine. But, just because nobody has worked on it for a long time? That doesn't cause any harm, so there's no reason to delete it simply because it's stale. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Exactly so, see my post above. The proposer should be obliged to give a reason that would get it deleted if it were no mainspace. "Stale" deletions are entirely against the mission of Wikipedia. SpinningSpark 16:01, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Are you actually serious? G13 was built as part of the AFC project to allow some ability to clear out old drafts. The Article Wizard didn't have it, the prior userspace draft system didn't have it, it's necessary to simply the volume of new clearly inadequate pages that are created very single day. Even if you don't want it for anything else, throwing out G13 entirely is utterly ridiculous. Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions has over 2100 pages in it and without a speedy deletion method to get rid of them, it would just overwhelm and shut MFD down to a complete standstill. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:34, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
    • @Ricky81682: The problem is that G13, as currently constituted, does not just clear out old "clearly inadequate pages". Remember, the bot tags unreviewed AFC submissions as well, and there is no obligation on the deleting admin to do any kind of review (and most don't). SpinningSpark 11:17, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
      • @Spinningspark: I'm having a hard time figuring out how a draft can exist with an AFC template on it for longer than six months without having been reviewed (and declined) at least once. Even during the worst backlogs no draft that entered the AFC process was left unreviewed for as long as six months, iirc the backlog has never been longer than about three months. There is simply no way that an unreviewed AFC submission can get to be older than six months because a draft enters the AFC system only when it is submitted for review for the first time. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:55, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
        • @Dodger67: It's very simple. Drafts in the AFC project are initially tagged as unsubmiitted drafts. They only become unreviewed drafts when the author (or somebody else) clicks the submit button. Many drafts are never submitted, so never get put in the needing review category. However, the bot tags drafts for G13 regardless of whether they are unsubmitted or reviewed and declined. SpinningSpark 14:20, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
          • @Spinningspark: How does the draft become tagged but not submitted? The {{submit}} template puts the draft into the queue to be reviewed. There's clearly an error in the logic somewhere. The first "submit" should be what starts the clock, because it's only then that the review system actually "notices" the existence of the draft and shows it to the reviewers. Is it something that the article wizard does that tags the page as an afc draft without submitting it? I've never used the article wizard so I have no idea how it works. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
            • @Dodger67: Oh for goodness sake, try reading the documentation of the template you just linked. There are thousands of unsubmitted drafts in Category:Draft AfC submissions; just look at a few at random like this one, or this one, or this one, or this one. Literally tens of thousands drafts in this category have been deleted that would have made perfectly usable articles, at least as a starting point. SpinningSpark 20:04, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
      • Perhaps the bot can be told to only tag those drafts for G13 which have been declined for reasons other than "already exists" (because then, a merger may be appropriate).Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:47, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
        • @Jo-Jo Eumerus: The bot scans the sub-categories of Category:AfC submissions by date. This category is sneakily added by the {{AFC submission}} and {{AFC submission}} templates. The bot trolls either the Day/Month/Year roll up categories and looks at every single member to see if the very simple condition "Has there been no edit to the page in at least 5 months". If it is, the bot gives notice to the creator of the page to let them know the page will soon be in danger of being deleted under the G13 rule. If not the bot moves to the next page. At the 6 month mark, the bot re-checks the pages to see if the page is still eligible and if so, perform the procedural nomination under G13. There have been multiple proposals in the past for the bot to do multiple nomination reasons, but I did not want to do that, because the bot cannot and should not be evaluating the decline reasons to see if the decline reason is accurate (and potentially add more rationalles to nominate). The bot does a simple check on the absolute last edit date to determine G13 eligiblity. Some editors enlarged G13's mandate to include "non-bot edits", however the bot and the template have never been changed to support such a workflow, making it much harder for the admins processing the G13 nominations to know if the G13 is valid or not. Because the Bot scans the category to find things it can potentially notify/nominate on, it does not pick up drafts that are outside the AfC workflow. Ideally, All AfC submissions should be in the Draft namespace, however not all pages in the Draft namespace belong to the AfC project. Editors are free to delist a draft out of the AfC workflow as they are not required to use it (which I've objected to on multiple occasions and proposed a rule to revert that kind of change). Overall this discussion is about how many pages live in the Draft namespace without any kind of oversight/evaluation/searchability. Finally, I note that Ricky's "The Wiki is burning down because of this crap" screams are grossly over-exagerated. Less than 2 years ago, we were at 40 thousand drafts that met the simple definitions of G13. It took us nearly 9 months to get the years (back to 2009) long backlog trimmed down to something much more reasonable. Hasteur (talk) 20:47, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
          • 40 thousand under the simple G13 definition with a speedy deletion mechanism took 9 months to reduce to basically 2k or zero even at times. There was still another 46k of userspace drafts which weren't under this system starting in November and which has been repeatedly rejected as a speedy option (which is fine) so it's going at a much, much slower pace. If there was no G13 system and the AFC system could only be reduced entirely by clogging up MFD, it would be a different discussion. That is precisely my point. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
• Keep STALEDRAFT partly because WP:NOT#WEBHOST and because stale drafts do create a large amount of distraction (e.g when looking through categories for stuff to work on or while policing for copyvios). I wonder if the issue is that some stale drafts can be salvaged (that is, turned or merged into articles eventually) and other can't but G13 by default assumes that "stale = unsalvageable", and reworking a potentially salvageable draft is much harder than pressing a delete button. Maybe this would be worth working on?Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • That is precisely my objection. The proposer of a G13 should be forced to give a reason other than "stale"...but that would mean it could no longer be done by bot. SpinningSpark 16:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Well, if the draft being declined (which, assuming the decline was correct, means that the draft is not suited to be an article) counts as a reason for deleting other than mere staleness, that would make it bot actionable still ... although some declined drafts may be mergeworthy.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
      • I have rescued numerous G13 proposals that have been declined for non-deletable reasons. People shouldn't do that, but they, do and drafts get deleted as a result. As far as I know, none of my rescues have ever been deleted from mainspace (although I can't be sure, I no longer watchlist all of them). But putting that aside, because it is not the central issue, G13 does not require that a draft has been rejected, only that it is within the AFC project. More than that, this debate has occured because some editors are assuming G13 can apply to other drafts that do not explicitly carry the AFC template, particularly those created through the article wizard, which will never get an AFC review. Pages can most definitely be correctly deleted under this process that are actually perfectly good articles. SpinningSpark 19:04, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I usually do give an additional reason: no hope of a acceptable article. But that is not a formal speedy criterion by itself and should not be, as it sometimes needs discussion, especially if there is an active editor. But added to the fact that no improvement is being made on the draft, it is much less ambiguous. Remember that A7 specifically does not apply to draft space, because the article is still in progress and significance might be shown by a future edit--but if the article is abandoned, that's not going to happen.

declined drafts can still e rescued, and I , like SpinningSpark & others, have rescued a few thousand over the last 2 years, either by writing what has been given up on, merging, or simply accepting what should not have been declined. But I am one of the very few people systematically checking for this, and more people would do it if there were an easier way.

Though errors can be made, we have to balance this with a practical speed of operation--having hundreds of MfDs a day will not really improve things. The most important improvement I can think of is listing drafts by subject, so those likely to be interested can see them. The next one would be finding a way for people to find deleted ones if they search by keyword. (obviously this will have to apply only to G13--others should not be made visible to anyone) DGG ( talk ) 19:23, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that everything is sent to MFD, only that a rationale be offered for the speedy. This is especially a problem with unreviewed drafts, at least those with an AFC review have a decline reason that can be assessed by the deleting admin whether it warrants a deletion. Oh, I take it back, that's not the only thing I'm suggestion, I'm also calling for G13 not to apply to any article that has an active editor in the editing history. SpinningSpark 20:29, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• I don't like responding to proposals by banned editors, but the IP happens to have mirrored a sentiment I expressed in my essay User:Ivanvector/Drafts are cheap (which is itself a draft, how meta), that deletion of pages in draft space for the sole reason that they are old does not benefit the project. Sure there are plenty of pages there which are of no benefit to keeping, but I've always thought that this should not be a speedy criterion - if pages need to be deleted (copyvios, hopelessly unnoteworthy topics, attack pages, WEBHOST violations) there are already other speedy criteria to apply. I find G13 to be much too broad. To DGG's point above, yes, pages can be rescued via WP:REFUND and many users are keen on working on this, but then why delete the pages in the first place? It's a completely unnecessary hindrance to most users. It's nice to have the viewdelete glasses I'm sure, but most users have no way of seeing deleted drafts to be inspired to rescue one, if they were to be interested in participating. Maybe "rescuing abandoned drafts" is an avenue to attract new editors to the project. "Rescuing invisible pages of indeterminate content by applying to a bloated administrative review process and hoping for a favourable result before you get to edit anything" is much less likely to do so. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

And yes, I know there's a bot that notifies interested users about drafts which are about to be deleted. I see it as a ridiculous solution to an invented problem. It would be more beneficial to not have this path to deletion in the first place. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Ivanvector, viewdelete has the problem that it would apply to all deleted articles, and the WMF will probably veto this for anyone who does not have community approval in a process like RfA, so they might as well run for admin. I am not certain whether it would be feasible for a viewdelete to be programmed that would apply only to G13, but I will ask. As a practical matter requests for undeletion of G13s are almost always granted unless there is a reason why not. The problem is finding the deleted material, and viewdelete alone will not help all that much. Even for admins, there is no way I can scan for a deleted article except by title in the deletion log. To look at the content, there is no single click procedure; I'm fairly fast at the steps, but it takes 4 times as long as looking at undeleted articles (This probably could be fixed also.) DGG ( talk ) 02:16, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that many of the pages that need deleting, contrary to what you said, do not fall under a speedy criterion. The majority of these are non-notable people/orgs/bands and notability is not a speedy criterion. To a lesser extent, there are also promotional articles that do not quite make it to G11. What I am suggesting is that G13 should be more like PROD so that the deleting admin can see that at least one editor has assessed it as NN, NOT, ADVERT, or whatever. SpinningSpark 20:57, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

So there are reasons to delete which have nothing to do with the page's creation date. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

All reasons to delete have nothing to do with the page's creation date—because the page's creation date is not a reason for deletion. SpinningSpark 00:06, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I realize just now that where I said "page's creation date" I had meant to say "date of its most recent edit". Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@DGG: what you said above is sort of what I'm talking about. I don't think that the solution is to give more editors access to viewdelete (very bad idea) but the solution is to not delete stale drafts in the first place, unless there's some non-age-related problem which requires their deletion anyway. Each and every draft that doesn't suffer from such an issue is a potential future article; age alone is not a problem. What problem is it solving to delete drafts just because they're old? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

General discussion of G13 update proposal

@DGG: Is there a particular reason you have proposed this criteria to be updated to now apply to the "Draft talk:" namespace? From what I have seen, drafts are never stored in that namespace; that, and if its parent page in the "Draft:" namespace is deleted, then the corresponding page in the "Draft talk:" namespace would be deleted per criterion G8. Stating that G13 applies to the "Draft talk:" namespace seems like misleading instruction creep. Steel1943 (talk) 18:46, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

completeness; they aren ot supposed to be there, but I remember seeing one or two there, either by accident or deliberately. DGG ( talk ) 20:34, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Related question: do speedy criteria apply generally to pages which are put in the wrong space? For example if someone wrote a speediable article in Category: space, would we insist that the A-series criteria don't apply, or would we just get on with deleting it? Also, the G-series criteria apply everywhere anyway, so is the change redundant? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:35, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Nah, the fix for misplaced stuff is to move it to the right place. If the article that was misplaced in Category: is A7 eligible I'd probably move it to article space and tag it for speedy deletion there. Or I'd kick it to Draft space, depending.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:30, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I know this is just a bureaucratic nonsense line of questioning anyway, but if you were an admin and happened to come across an A7-tagged page in Category: space, and it is unquestionably an article with no claim of significance, would you just delete it, or would you move it to mainspace, then delete it, then G8-delete the redirect left behind in category space? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:41, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The distinction is mostly in terms of dotted i's and crossed t's, so I'd probably deleted as A7 and add in a note in the deletion summary about this being a misplaced article, in that hypothetical universe.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I'll respond here to a few comments to keep the above !voting clear of extended discussion: @Etamni: and @Spinningspark: Thanks for your reply! It's true that some editors are a little over-eager about pulling the trigger. That's why an admin is needed to actually delete the page. In my opinion, examples like the Gilberto Neto article is obviously abandoned, and shouldn't waste people's time at MfD. We give admins the bit in the hopes they will exercise good judgement. I understand the concern about deletion without proper review, but I think that's a larger issue better addressed elsewhere or with the specific admins. I also think it's still less laborious to do an occasional WP:REFUND following a CSD than it is to go through the whole MfD process for something that's most likely to never be undeleted. I'd be VERY interested to see the number of articles that end up getting completed following a WP:REFUND in these situations. I believe that the admins do a pretty good job, even if I don't always agree with them. I do support increasing the time from 6 months to 1 year, and would strongly prefer it. Again, thank you for your response! Chrisw80 (talk) 18:38, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

There is an awful lot wrong with what you have said here, and you clearly haven't read my response to you at your "support", or else you have taken no notice of it. G13 tagging is automated, there is not usually any question of being "over-eager", the requirement for G13 tagging is simply that the page has not been edited for six months and in the vast majority of cases it hasn't. There are next to no mistakes. That is not my objection and it is not the issue. Relying on the deleting admin to review the page before deleting is completely wrong-headed. G13 does not require the admin to do any review other than to confirm that the page has not been recently edited (and currently, it is within the AFC project, but this proposal wants to take away that check). Most admins do only that, confirm that the draft has been abandoned and then delete it. They may not have the time, or the inclination, or the skill, to review every article, and they are not required to. So a page could be a Featured quality draft, and still be tagged and then deleted perfectly in accordance with this policy.

REFUND is useless to anyone except the original editor since no one else will know the draft exists once it is deleted. It is more important for builing the encyclopadia to keep potentially useful material than it is to clear out the hopeless cases. It is even more important not to piss off content creating editors who may have just taken an extended break, or perhaps are still around but have just not got around to finishing off a project.

I have never said that every page should be sent to MfD, I am fine with the idea of clearing out abandoned rubbish with a CSD process. However, what I think is objectionable with the current G13 is that it requries no assessment of the quality of the material being deleted and we certainly shouldn't be extending such an authoritarian system into userspace generally until a) there is an assessment, b) there is a procedure to deal with the page if it is kept, and c) editors who have been active in the last two years have their userspace excluded. SpinningSpark 20:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

It's not wrong-headed at all to expect administrators to do a quality review - we're all here to improve the encyclopedia. I know I've done so for every G13 I've deleted, and I take second and third looks if it's Hasteurbot that tagged it instead of a human. Leaving something you're unsure about in unindexed draftspace for a while for someone else to inspect is less harmful than just about any other class of speedy. We may not subscribe to the overinclusive "if it might possibly survive AFD it should move out of draftspace right away" mentality some folks advocate; but show me an admin who intentionally speedies your hypothetical featured-article-quality draft on a technicality and I'll show you someone who should be desysopped for cause. —Cryptic 20:52, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, how about this: The admin looks at it. If it is obviously not suitable for article space, it gets deleted. If it would be an article of sufficient quality, meeting GNG and quality minimum standards, it gets moved into article space. If neither, it goes to XFD.--Müdigkeit (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Draft titles don't appear in search results for outside readers, but unless deselected they do for logged-in editors, so there is some need for an exhaust pipe to avoid clutter building up without limit. I'd give it 12 months rather than 6. The issue should be considered in conjunction with the open RfC on how articles get moved into draft space. Oh, and if deletion from user space is still under debate, that shouldn't normally happen; it's quite plausible to have a collection of rough notes and internet links kicking around for months until the user gets a block of free time to work it up: Noyster (talk), 12:08, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Fundamental question being asked

Because several editors are confused about what's motivating this, it's time to dispense with the cow feeces. Fundamentally this proposal is to retroactively give authorization for editors to nominate for speedy deletion any page that lives in the Draft namespace (i.e. Drafts:...) under a argument that "No edits to this draft are visible to the general editing public in a certain amount of time, therefore it's not useful and should be deleted".

This is a significant expansion of this CSD criterion because previously it was only applicable to drafts that were part of the Articles for Creation (AfC) process. Editors who used the AfC process were warned at the outset that they needed to make effort to improve their proposed article otherwise it could be subject to deletion on the stale grounds.

Draft namespace was specifically created with the understanding that several previous projects and initiatives (Abandoned drafts, Incubation, etc.) would be shut down and pages under their aegis would be centralized to pool all the collaborative drafts that people might be interested in. As part of the initial RFC and subsequent proposals, the consensus was that there should be no deletions of Draft namespace pages (excluding the previously mentioned AfC pages) on the grounds of the page being stale.

AfC is not a requirement for using the Draft namespace. AfC is recommended for new users, not required to be used. I have seen arguments both for and against CSD:G13 being applicable to pages that are in the AfC process that are in individual users space, but have taken the conservative view with the bot that User space shouldn't be touched. It's my impression that when AfC volunteer reviewers look at a pending submission (meaning the creator of the article asked for a review to determine if the page is ready to be promoted to mainspace) and determines that while the page has potential (but not enough to move it to mainspace) they will move it to an analagous Draft namespace title. If the draft doesn't show potential, then it will remain in the user's individual space and the bot will not consider it for speedy.

Yes this is very long, but it helps to understand where the proposers are coming from and what they're asking for. Hasteur (talk) 13:30, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Getting sick of this

A7 again I'm afraid. You may remember a big discussion a few months ago about A7 and what constitutes a credible claim of significance. I failed to get a straight answer from the community as a whole, so the editor's (I'm not mentioning names as I'm not here to report anyone for anything; my goal here is not to get anyone blocked or anything like that, but rather to (or at least attempt to) ensure it doesn't happen again) arguments when he challenged my tag removals basically boiled down to "You will interpret it the way I say it should be interpreted or else!". He even templated me over what turned out to be a legitimate tag removal after all, because he had simply decided I was wrong, and refused to consider any possibility to the contrary. I also notice he had a go at me for having "my" interpretation but not the admin who had her interpretation. Does "not being entitled to my own interpretation" as he said it only apply to those he disagrees with?

More recently (yesterday in fact), I removed an A7 tag from an article whose subject was clearly outside its scope. The editor who placed it there asked why, and I explained, politely, that it was beyond the scope of A7. He asked if it should be restored for an admin to judge, and I said there was no good reason to. He decided to ignore me and restore it anyway, along with a sugar-coated command for me not to touch the tag. When I legitimately contested it, he threw a wobbler, and insisted that there is no requirement to specify an A7 category, even though the template asks you to. He also implied I'm not worth listening to purely because I'm relatively new here. I think he knew deep down that I was right, because he eventually conceded defeat and changed it to a PROD.

My point is, these editors seem to be assuming ownership. And I'm not the only one who's encountered this sort of behaviour. Editors sometimes act as though they own an article (or at least the tag) once they've tagged it for CSD, and restore the tag without good reason because they've decided they were right and the editor who removed it is wrong. This has got to stop. Before anyone screams "Consensus!" at me like last time, I'd like to point out that the criteria is made by consensus (hence this discussion), so anything that doesn't fall into the criteria cannot be speedied because there's no consensus to do so. The reason the latter editor tagged the article for A7 was because, "This article is worthless", well maybe it is, but surely that's for the community to decide? He acted as though his opinion, and his opinion alone counted, and called me a "a bureaucratic pain in the ass" purely for following consensus, which is the one thing WP:IAR cannot override even if he had a good reason. I'm wondering whether to propose an extension of A7 to cover, well, anything. It would make life much easier for everyone; some people don't care about the spirit, some people don't care about the letter, and some people don't care about either, and tag things for speedy deletion just because they don't like them.

The other day, an admin encouraged me to be bold. This sort of behaviour is making me increasingly wary of doing so. Perhaps I should stop and wait for consensus before doing anything? After all, I don't own the article; someone else does, so surely I need their permission first? Ridiculous, as I'm sure you'll agree. Adam9007 (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

A7 is a narrow set of criteria, so there should not be that much of gray area for disagreements. It's hard to help you though without actual examples to examine. - MrX 20:50, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree: specific examples would help; I daresay that one might find out what happened where and when anyway by combing through your edits, so don't be shy...and actually I think getting the other user(s) involved into the discussion might have beneficial effects for everyone. Lectonar (talk) 21:01, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog on Office warranty? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:05, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: That's one of them, yes. I may as well admit it as you've posted it here. Adam9007 (talk) 21:25, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

JoJo, yep. Maybe Adam was correct, we don't know as I changed to PROD. So this is moot. To me the larger issue and what was unhelpful was Adam's bureaucratic insistence on what A7 is or is not for, rather than trying to solve the problem that the "article" is a piece of crap mostly likely written for pay that doesn't add anything to the encyclopedia. I got upset and didn't act too well. But as I said the point is moot now and I am uninterested in discussing this further. Jytdog (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Adam9007: Yes, Jytdog erred in that case and you were correct to decline the CSD tag. When doing so, it's a good idea to drop a note on the user's talk page letting them know why. - MrX 21:30, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Something about this conversation makes me think a talk page note wouldn't have helped in this case. A2soup (talk) 22:05, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

"these editors seem to be assuming ownership" - I'll go further and say there are admin shopping and also jerks. Anyone can remove a speedy delete tag for any reasons, and the only exception is copyright and attack pages. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 21:34, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

No, it is not quite correct that anyone can remove a speedy delete tag. The creator of a page may not remove a speedy deletion tag (and there is a template warning for doing that). Any other editor may remove a speedy tag. (The editor who initially applied the tag of course may nominate the page for a deletion discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:30, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

I also review speedy deletion tags (not so frequently as I used to) and I know exactly what you're experiencing. A lot of new page patrollers think they understand the rules of the game - be the first to tag the new article as A7, quick or someone else will beat you to it - and don't really have a lot of understanding of the actual deletion policies. They are tolerated and enabled by too many admins who take basically the same approach. Too often they demonstrate a lack of empathy and interest in either the article topics or the editors affected by their actions.

I think it's very important to understand and acknowledge the other side of the coin - that the vast, huge, overwhelming majority of speedy deletions of new articles are appropriate and necessary. These people believe they are doing good and valuable work, and for the most part, they are. Then someone like you (or me) comes along and screws up their system. Why do we hate them? :)

If this is an area where you want to be active, I would suggest you develop the following:

• A deep understanding of speedy deletion policy, and also the reasons behind the policy. WHY are you allowed to remove tags from other people's articles? WHY aren't admins empowered to just unilaterally delete anything they think is a good idea? What sort of things ARE valid exceptions to the rules?
• A sympathetic and non-judgmental communication style with new page patrollers. They are on the same side as you - really. Find ways to talk to them that show respect for their work. Avoid sounding condescending or combative.
• Some big balls. You will find yourself explaining speedy deletion policy to angry administrators. This will happen often. Might as well get used to it. (Note that doing the previous two suggestions first will greatly help with this.)
• A thick skin. You will need it.
• A sense of perspective. I guarantee that right now there are articles in the speedy deletion queue that technically, per the letter of policy, should not be there. The tag that has been used is formally not applicable. You would be within your rights to remove it and make a fuss. And yet, when you look at the article, and the history of the contributor, you will find yourself disinterested in rescuing that particular article for one reason or another. Instead you will quietly let it go, and let it be inappropriately deleted as A7 or whatever. And you, along with the patroller, and the deleting admin, will feel that the encyclopedia has been improved as a result. If you NEVER have that situation occur, I would encourage you to take a broader view of deletion policy and WP:IAR.

(Edit to add, this advice is aimed at a generic "you", not at Adam9007 specifically, whose work I have not reviewed).

Thparkth (talk) 22:27, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I've seen admins misunderstand A7! But there's a difference between speedy and snow delete, although they may appear to be the same. Probably the best for such cases it to PROD it, and if an admin thinks it appropriate, he will invoke the snowball clause and delete it before it's expired. Though I have seen disagreement as to whether the snowball clause applies to PRODs. Adam9007 (talk) 00:36, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• if Adam had shown an inkling of interest in trying to solve the problem I was trying to solve, the conversation would have unfolded differently. I have little patience with people who seem to care more whether they are "correct" than improving the encyclopedia. If instead of removing the tag, he had come to my page and said "hey A7 is the wrong tag, but I see what you are trying to do and PROD would be more appropriate" I would have been very happy. Or when I asked him why he had removed the tag, if he had offered something like that along with the explanation, again the conversation would have unfolded very differently. Yes, I should have acted better and I should have asked him sooner how he thought I could accomplish my goal. I did eventually did ask him here and in response to his completely crap answer here, I asked again but by the time he answered I had already figured I could just PROD it

We need all kinds of people to make this place go. I work mostly on COI/advocacy/paid editing stuff along with my editing; Adam works on speedy patrolling. Great. Let's help each other. Jytdog (talk) 22:50, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

You made a mistake; he corrected it. At the point he restored the CSD tag with a proper edit summary, you should have went to WP:A7 and did some light reading. Instead, you reacted by reverting him. It's not the end of the world, but no one is obligated to "try to solve the problem" as explained in WP:CHOICE.- MrX 23:49, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

I made a mistake, he reverted, I tried to talk with him about it, found an unhelpful person and got frustrated, reverted him, and later changed my own edit to a PROD rather than continue the drama over a trivial piece of shit "article". Adam, by the way is even now wasting yet more time wikilawyering around this trivial piece of shit "article".) That is what has happened. It is completely unclear to me why people are wasting time on this. I gave A7 a light read before i tagged it. I was not talking out my ass. Look. I think is what you want. 1) Adam was correct that A7 was not appropriate. 2) I was wrong to tag it that way. 3) I was wrong to revert him. There you go. I will not respond again here unless I am pinged. I do not expect to be pinged. Jytdog (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

How does asking a legitimate question constitute "time wasting"? Adam9007 (talk) 00:37, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• OK I am back. Adam9007 can you please justify this deletion of a speedy tag? The article is cited to two directories and a press release, and is so, so obviously an effort to promote the guy. I haven't reverted, but boy was I tempted. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 03:41, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

and this one too? Both of these are not technically wrong, like mine was. it seems to me that you are applying administrator-like judgement, that is not appropriate (and that I don't agree with). Jytdog (talk) 03:48, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Likewise this one. I know admins who would delete all three of those. Again I think it is fine to catch screw-ups like mine, but in my view these are over the line...Jytdog (talk) 03:50, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

(I am not Adam9007)

I personally disagree with the removal of the tag on the first article you linked to, and agree with Adam9007 on the second. But really, it doesn't matter.

Speedy deletion is for situations so utterly uncontroversial that no uninvolved editor would ever disagree in good faith.

As soon as you know that even just one other independent editor disagrees with the speedy deletion tag, that tag no longer applies. The deletion is no longer uncontroversial.

It doesn't remotely matter whether that independent editor happens to have administrator rights or not; it is well-established in policy and precedent that any editor (other than the article creator) can remove speedy deletion tags they disagree with. Any good faith reason for disagreement is good enough, and it is disruptive to revert their removal of the tags (because when you tag an article for speedy deletion, you are asserting that the deletion is uncontroversial, and now you know that is not true).

I think it's really important to internalize this idea; speedy deletion is a shortcut process that only happens under very particular conditions. One of those conditions is that no independent editor disagrees with the deletion. If they do disagree, take it to AfD to hash out how the wider community feels about the issue - never revert the removal of a speedy deletion tag (other than by the page creator).

Thparkth (talk) 04:05, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

That pretty much sums up my view as well. It can be frustrating to have CSDs declined, but it's merely one more step to take it to AfD. That said, I suggest that Adam9007 consider recalibrating his threshold for significance. The first article (linked by Jytdog, above) does not have a credible claim of significance, nor does the third. In cases where there is doubt as to significance, it's best to leave removal of the CSD to an admin.- MrX 04:25, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: The first article claims the person is a director of a notable company, and the third is about a band assigned to a label with a Wikipedia entry, which according to this is a credible claim of significance. Adam9007 (talk) 04:47, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Being the director of a small web design firm is not significant at all. Being a band signed to a minor record label is also not significant. This is why I think you need to adjust your threshold of what is significant if you are going to overrule someone else's judgement. - MrX 05:02, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Part of the problem with this debate is that one man's "director of a notable company" is another's "small web design firm". My gut feeling was to disagree with MrX, but on looking at the content, I would probably have deleted The Great American Beast, though that's more through a total vaccuum in sources including no hit on AllMusic or any regional newspaper. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: It doesn't say the label has to be major, only notable. If it's notable enough for Wikipedia, it's significant. In the absence of anything else to go by, that page is what I'll be referring to. Adam9007 (talk) 17:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Adam9007: Are you suggesting that there is a guideline that says listing a record label with an article, in an article about a band or musician, is a credible claim of significance as required by WP:A7? If so, could you please provide a link? If this is true, I've been doing it wrong for years.- MrX 19:41, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: That page, though an essay rather an a policy or guideline, says that it is, unless I'm misunderstanding it? Adam9007 (talk) 19:44, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Adam9007: That page is the opinion of one person. Frankly, the advice about a notable label flies in the face of WP:CIRCULAR, and in my experience, does not represent widespread practice or consensus. It's fine if you want to use it as a guide for how you mark articles for speedy deletion, but you should not use it as a basis for removing speedy deletion tags placed in good faith by other new page patrollers.- MrX 20:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@MrX: I don't think that applies as that's talking about using Wikipedia as a source in articles. This is entirely different, as I'm not adding or removing sources to or from articles; we're talking here about policies and guidelines. I've seen some of the reasons listed there as a basis for declining A7s, even by admins. And besides, by your logic, I shouldn't use Wikipedia policies or guidelines at all to justify my actions! Adam9007 (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The principle behind WP:CIRCULAR still applies. Just because a record label article has been created, doesn't mean that it's notable. Also, notability is not inherited. A band or musician article needs to include a credible claim of significance about the band or musician (the subject of the article) to be exempt from CSD. The notabilty of other subjects is irrelevant. I can tell you that if you use this reasoning to remove speedy deletion tags, Jytdog is not going to be the only new page patroller upset by your actions. I recommend that until you have considerably more experience, you refrain from removing CSD tags. This is why we have admins.- MrX 20:36, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, you don't think being a part of a potentially notable label is a credible claim of significance, but that is your opinion. Editors can be upset all they like, but that doesn't mean they're right. I'm not going to let one incident stop me; that would violate the spirit of WP:BOLD. As for experience, how else am I going to gain it? Adam9007 (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• there was a 4th removal of a speedy tag that I didn't mention here. I just got done spending about an hour following where the editing of that article led me, and it led to the reporting of two socks of a prolific sockmaster WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Natly 88, and it led to this COIN posting. Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if you are disputing this, but that tag removal is 100% appropriate. The article is terrible (although writing a detailed synopsis is an understandable newbie mistake), but it claims in the infobox to be about a TV show that ran 79 episodes on a notable TV network. A google search for the title's exact wording returns 351,000 results. I can't imagine how the tagging editor thought this was a viable A7. A2soup (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Deleting articles pisses people off. Speedy deleting articles really pisses people off. Speedy deleting articles and referring to the content in profane terms pisses people off to the point they set up "I hate Wikipedia" blog pages. If you have any doubts, don't delete. Unless the content has legal problems existing (generally G10 / G12, or has BLP concerns) it won't kill you to wait 7 days. If Jytdog is unable to evaluate articles on their own merits without referring to terms like "shit", "crap" and "socks", I suggest he finds another maintenance area to work on until he feels less emotionally involved. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:36, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest the following Actions:

@Jytdog:Adam9007 If you think Adam9007 has significantly broken the process, please raise it as a concern at WP:AN and give examples over a significant period showing how the concern is ongoing.

@Adam9007: Per WP:ADMINACCT you're supposed to explain and justify your actions when being questioned. If your actions signifcantly diverge from common practice, it's expected you change them to follow the consensus unless you wish to have your administrator privileges removed either voluntarily or via a knock-down-drag-out ArbCom case.

This discussion be closed down as there's clearly some issues with the speedy nominations and their declines. Keep in mind that Speedy deletion is not a automatic garuntee of deletion. It's simply a shortcut through burecratic red tape. If there's a concern that a nomination doesn't meet the criteria, it has to go to some other form of deletion (Prod/XfD). Hasteur (talk) 14:40, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@Hasteur: Okay, but I'm not an admin; only a potential hopeful (it does say might on my user page). I also would have thought my edit summaries provided adequate explanation? Adam9007 (talk) 17:09, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I got both of you mixed up after the numerous arguing and accusations of malfeasance. Hasteur (talk) 18:35, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh great, more of this behaviour at NextGenSearchBot; this is getting really annoying. Adam9007 (talk) 02:30, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Holy. Shit. @Jytdog: here you link two A7 tag removals by @Adam9007: this and this (there were others, but these two remain undeleted for me to review so I'm focusing on those). Both are unambiguously completely correct removals of bad A7 nominations. Both removals are thoroughly in line with both the spirit and letter of our (intentionally very narrow) speedy deletion policy, as both articles clearly had credible claims of significance at the time of the A7 nomination. The editors that placed these noms should be counseled, possibly using Template:Sdd series of warnings, to help them learn from the mistake. Adam should be lauded for catching these errors. Instead, you are exhibiting such exuberant ignorance of our deletion policy that you highlight these as if they were some sort of failure. I am absolutely confounded how you could retain such incompetence after years of experience editing here, and I am mortified that you are trying so hard to discourage someone from doing the right thing. Over at New Pages Patrol we are constantly fighting incompetent, overzealous patrollers (this is a much bigger part of @Kudpung:'s life than he would prefer). Back the hell up and make an adjustment right quick, because you are on the wrong side of this fight.

@MrX: per above I only looked at these two examples but from them it seems your suggestion that Adam needs to "recalibrate" is way off the mark.

Adam, I am sorry that you encountered this nonsense, and I suggest that you aggressively ignore such horrid feedback. Sincerely, thank you for your dedication and I hope you keep it up. VQuakr (talk) 03:26, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your note VQuakr. I acknowledged that I applied A7 wrongly on the one where Adam I first clashed. Nothing ongoing there. New page patrol is brutal and I am grateful to those who do it. I do think that instead of helping solve the problem, he presented me with a big bureaucratic cow blank stare. Which is not helpful in solving the problem of dealing with the torrent of garbage the flows into WP piece by piece, which is what we have to do, and especially for somebody who has schooled themselves on the deletion criteria. Jytdog (talk) 03:43, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

I mean, is it really the job of an editor with ~6000 edits to explain to an editor with ~60,000 edits plus reviewer and rollbacker rights how to delete inappropriate content in the correct way? Did you really not know that PROD and AfD were the next options after A7 tag removal? A2soup (talk) 03:46, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

@VQuakr: Thank you very much indeed! Unfortunately, if I do just ignore such feedback, they may just make good on their threats to report me or whatever. Swpb: has made it clear here he will simply revert any of my A7 tag removals as abusive (I'm an "abuser" apparently) and disruptive, no matter how justified it was. What a disgusting attitude! Why I'm letting it get to me I don't know. Adam9007 (talk) 03:49, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

The threat of blanket reversions is probably bluster and best ignored (though I don't actually see where the user said what you say they said at the link you provided). Actually blanket restoring ill-considered A7 nominations would be disruptive and would eventually lead to a topic ban, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Do you have some other running dispute with them related to CfD? More generally, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the risk of being "reported" for following policy. VQuakr (talk) 04:43, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

@VQuakr:I've never had anything to do with CfD, so I can only assume it's a typo and he meant either AfD or CSD. Yes, I have had a past dispute (which I think has been resolved for the most part, though he obviously doesn't think so), but that was more to do with what constitutes a credible claim of significance (on that note, it doesn't say anywhere that such a claim must be ultra-specific, so I still believe that such removals were within the letter at least). He immediately came down on me like a ton of bricks, so it's no wonder I was reluctant to listen, MelanieN: and Peridon: on the other hand were much more civil and I was therefore more willing to listen. But he did template me for "disruptive editing" over a A7 tag removal on an article about an app, i.e. a software product. He had decided it's about a corporation, even though it clearly wasn't (much like NextGenSearchBot, an internet bot). If that logic is valid, then so is the following proposal; that Cluebot NG, Yobot, Sinebot and every other bot account be blocked for representing a business and for having a conflict of interest, along with their creators/operators for sock puppetry. What do you think?

Anyway, the reason I take threats seriously is because I know Hullaballoo Wolfowitz: has not just been threatened with, but actually has been reported for CSD tag removals. He was cleared on any wrongdoing, but I can't guarantee the same outcome if that were to happen to me. Adam9007 (talk) 22:23, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

The essay WP:CCS is linked from this policy and contains some more description. This policy also makes pretty clear that significance is a much lower bar than notability. It sounds like the relationship between you and Swpb has broken down to the point where it's best not to interact. Don't worry about it too much: engineers are, without exception, awful people. Re your question about whether you should drop to the lowest common denominator and start making disruptive deletion proposals... no. VQuakr (talk) 01:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

ETA - do you have a permalink to whatever noticeboard HW was brought to regarding speedy removals? That might be a useful link to have from this discussion. Really, though - be terse but civil in your explanations and you don't have anything to worry about. VQuakr (talk) 01:08, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

@VQuakr: Yes: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive910#Removal_of_speedy_tags. I have a feeling there may be another one, but I could be wrong. By the way, I wasn't being serious about blocking those bots and their operators! EDIT; another one: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive907#Hullaballoo_Wolfowitz Adam9007 (talk) 01:51, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

HW didn't have much cause to lose sleep over either one of those, particularly the one that resulted in a boomerang for the poster. Yes, I figured you were being facetious. VQuakr (talk) 19:54, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

There's sort of a balance between deleting articles that are clearly not for Wikipedia since they make no attempt at claiming significance and making sure we aren't deleting articles hastily, or articles that could have potential, without going through a process that gives time for community reaction such as PROD or AfD. Where is that balance exactly? I don't know, I certainly lean more towards the side of applying PROD on articles unless I'm absolutely convinced they meet A7 to the letter since I really view A7 as a last resort—I essentially assume the editor will not want to edit Wikipedia further if I tag an article for speedy deletion, so I try to avoid it unless it's really needed to keep Wikipedia clean. Others use A7 a bit more liberally. What's the exact right path? I'm not sure if there's a good answer to that—since every expansion to A7 proposed in the last while has had a no consensus outcome, it's hard to know what the correct path is. Anyway, I think there's a lot of deeper issues with A7 and I'd personally advocate a review of that policy overall (not just in a few cases). Appable (talk) 03:52, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Break

• Comment: I came here because was pinged. I'm not going to characterise on any of the articles that have been referred to in this discussion but I will say this: I have campaigned for 6 years or more for improvement of our NPP system and was also the major player from the community in getting the WMF to develop the suite of tools we now use for it. The major issue was, and still is however, that Page Curation is still only any good when used by editors with a thou rough knowledge of our notability and deletion policies and the mechanisms available for their enforcement.

NPP is the single and most vital firewall against unwanted new content but ironically, unlike Recent Changes review or WP:AfC, it doesn't require its patrollers to demonstrate even an inkling of knowledge or understanding of what they are doing. Thus, while there is a tiny handful of experienced editors doing this thankless task in the lone void of absence of a vibrant and supportive community project taking care of it, such as there is at the far less important activity of AfC, it is a magnet to those new and/or inexperienced users who have discovered that in fact there is less control over Wikipedia content than there is over every run-of-the mill forum and blog. Literally everyone and anyone can interfere with its content and tinker with important processes such as tagging articles for attention or deletion, and for many, it becomes their favourite MMORPG.

Like DGG who is probably our single most knowledgeable admin on notability issues, and who has done more than most to wring sense out of the chaos of both NPP and AfD, I have tagged thousands of articles, voted on hundreds of AfD, closed probably hundreds too, and as an admin before I voluntarily resigned my tools, deleted thousands of inappropriate articles - some even unilaterally. Interestingly, not one single deletion of mine has been successfully contested. There have been a tiny handful of instances where a fellow admin has queried my choice of CSD criteria, but that's why we are admins and why we work together to uphold the basic philosophy that Wikipedia generally leans more towards inclusionism than deletionism. There are many grey areas in our policies and that's why we have debate mechanisms such as XfD and DELREV. The bottom line is that this entire discussion is a time sink; if ever there is the slightest disagreement over a CSD or a PROD that can't be resoved nicely on a user talk page, the immediate solution should be to send the article to AfD. Even that process is not perfect, but at least the outcome is a community decision and there is still DELREV as the ultimate court of appeal. There is one exception: I laud any patroller who offers to send a borderline article to the Draft namespace - another Wikipedia feature I was instrumental in getting created - and helps the creator with some advice. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:50, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

PS: After posting the above, I thought I'd go and do a bit of patrolling myself, something I haven't don for several week since on my curent Wikileave. After about 10 patrolls and marking about 2 only as acceptable, I had remostrated with five patrollers for sloppy patrolling and asked two raw newbies very nicely to piss off from NOPP abd come back when they have at least 500 substantive edits to mainspace. One, an IP users, says "I was only experimenting". Experiments indeed, if Wikipedia is to survive, we must introduce a user right for NPP, and I'm been working in the background with two other users to draft up a proposal. BUt we're going to need as much support as we can get against the anti-bureaucracy faction --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:50, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Pinglist: VQuakr, Appable, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, Adam9007, MelanieN, Jytdog, MrX, Lectonar, Ritchie333. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:07, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, that was helpful. Jytdog (talk) 02:31, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Kudpung, your comments make total sense. I completely agree with the need to set some controls or limits who does NPP, and will support any proposal along those lines. I'm not sure how it could be implemented; a user right could limit access to the page curation tools, but how do you stop someone from adding a deletion tag outside of the page curation process? In any case, it will certainly take time to establish consensus for a new user right, but in the meantime - did you say you found IPs doing page curation??? As a start, could we at least limit the process to auto-confirmed users? --MelanieN (talk) 17:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

@MelanieN: proposals I have heard involve a technical right to use the page curation tools (including automated speedy deletion nominations and flagging pages as "reviewed"). This has an advantage with the anti-bureaucracy folks in that NPP purely a housekeeping task: adding a user right doesn't infringe on content creation in any way (actually it should improve the editor experience by reducing the amount of spurious tagging, overhasty CSD noms, etc). Such a technical right wouldn't prevent anyone from manually adding a speedy deletion tag, but at this point I think we are looking for making an improvement not total perfection. VQuakr (talk) 20:02, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

@MelanieN: To stop people adding tags manually we need some way to detect such tags when a new revision of a page is saved. I can't see that happening though. This is the first I've heard of such a proposal, as there's nothing about this at Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol. Adam9007 (talk) 22:10, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Technically, one solution would be to make an edit filter that disallows editors without the NPP userright from adding CSD/PROD/AfD tags to articles that entered mainspace less than 1 week (or 2 weeks?) ago. Or how about just making the edit filter check for rollback, which would serve as the NPP userright. That would solve the problem of an initial dearth of NPPers and would make rollback meaningful again (it seems obsoleted by Twinkle), plus I think the current requirements for rollback are about right for the proposed NPP userright. A2soup (talk) 09:12, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

@Adam9007: there was some discussion about it last September, here. VQuakr (talk) 09:18, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

• @Kudpung: I would support making NPP a user right, provided that we don't make the bar too high for getting the right. I'm not sure how we determine that an editor can be trusted with the right, without being able to evaluate their history reviewing new pages.- MrX 02:50, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

• I very strongly support Kudpung in this. It's unacceptable that the most sensitive WP procedure of all, how we deal with new editors writing their first articles, is at the mercy of the least experienced. The reason that it's the most sensitive is that the very survival of WP depends upon the continual recruitment of new editors--none of of us will be around forever, and while we're here our priority is the recruitment and training of the next generation. Very few new articles from new editors are fully satisfactory when first submitted; it is necessary to have the judgement to separate those that can be improved and make it securely in mainspace and be the beginnings of a rewarding WP career, from those that will never make irt , but the contributor is a potentially good-faith editor who should be encourage to continue, and then again from those who are here only for promotional purposes or to contribute nonsense, and must be discourage --but still politely, so they will not think the worse of us and develop the sort of resentments that lead to socking and vandalism. To make this decision correctly requires the detailed knowledge of a host of intricate rule, and the experience to know how they will actually be applied--which as we all know can be quite different.But even more it requires the judgments and discretion in dealing with people that can only be obtained by a combination of innate human sympathy and life -experience. This is a formidable set of requirements, and notne of us really accomplishes this aa well and consistently as we desire--not Kudpung, not myself, not anyone i am aware of . But even with out limitations, we could do this more consistently and better if we did not have to correct the errors of those doing it poorly--which is considerable more difficult that having it done well in the first place. We need at least a minimum requirement. Some might think that if we restrict this we will not have enough people; I think rather that if we remove those not yet competent, those who are able to do it will be more likely to join the work, when they do not have to try work around those not yet ready. DGG ( talk ) 08:50, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the sentiments of Kudpung and DGG, and have expressed the same opinion many times, not least here. My main activity as an admin is reviewing CSD tags, and on a particular run there is always one I will not delete as the criteria is not met. The article may still go to AfD, but that is more acceptable as the creator is then given a full discussion of what problems are in the article (at least theoretically), rather than boilerplate they disagree with. Numerous people I speak with "off wiki" think writing articles is too hard and you need to have memorised too many sibboleths to stop your work being reverted and deleted. Unless we have better tools than the sort of that produces typical template spam of multiple CSD / AfD warnings, it's unlikely we will change that viewpoint. At the very least, the Page Curation warnings are much softer, and in fact I would campaign to replace the text in {{db-meta}} and {{Db-notability-notice}} with that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:21, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

G1 Proposed Change

(start quote)

These apply to every type of page, and so apply to articles, redirects, user pages, talk pages, files, etc.

G1. Patent nonsense

Shortcut: WP:G1

Main page: Wikipedia:Patent nonsense

This applies to pages consisting entirely of incoherent text or gibberish with no meaningful content or history. It does notcover poor writing, partisan screeds, obscene remarks, implausible theories, vandalism or hoaxes, fictional material, coherent non-English material, or poorly translated material. Nor does it apply to user sandboxes or other pages in the user namespace. In short, if you can understand it, G1 does not apply. (end quote)

Immediately after we say Gx applies to all pages, it does not. Why the carve out for Patent nonsense in user space? This should be a valid reason to delete. I support removing the struck words. Legacypac (talk) 02:31, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

G2 and G4 also have userspace-related exceptions. If there's a change, it should be to modify the text at the top to say something along the lines of "These apply to multiple namespaces". — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:05, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually. Simpler solution - Change "these apply to every type of page" to "these are not namespace-specific". All of the other sections of the page refer to specific namespaces other than general. General doesn't refer to one in particular, but they also don't apply to all of them. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:44, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd rather avoid using the word namespace, since this page sees a lot of new editors who probably don't understand what that means. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:24, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

• We have a carve-out for user space because we generally let users manage their own pages, and so there is not any consensus that any user page containing gibberish should be deleted. As far as the heading versus the specific, the meaning seems clear to me. Perhaps changing every to any would help? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:20, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose applying G1 to user sandboxes or other user pages. There are legitimate reasons why an editor might want to test the ability to edit what looks like patent nonsense in a sandbox. The most obvious example is that they are testing the ability to edit a language that is not written in the Latin alphabet. Two reasons for doing that might be to test the ability to render the native name of a place in a country that uses a non-Latin script or a person whose name is natively written in a non-Latin script, or if they have the need to explain something on the talk page of an editor who has English-competency issues. There are other reasons that a user might want to test the editing of what looks like patent nonsense. We should definitely disallow tagging of G1 on user sandboxes or subpages. Apparent patent nonsense, including non-English, is not allowed in article space, and is declined in draft space, but it shouldn't be tagged for speedy deletion. For that matter, apparent patent nonsense should not always be tagged for G1 in draft space. It might be a language that the reviewer doesn't know, in which case it should be declined with advice to translate, or move to the appropriate Wikipedia, not tagged. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:53, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Would just putting an "unless otherwise noted" qualifer a reasonable change? The carve-out is already treated as such in a de facto manner. ViperSnake151  Talk  22:55, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Thinking it over, I see no reason to change anything. I don't see any evidence that anyone is genuinely confused. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:24, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

In reviewing CSDs I have seen editors that mistakenly believe that all G criteria apply to all namespaces. In fact it was a decline I made of a G1 in the userspace that prompted this thread. I do not believe the solution given by the OP is the solution we should use. I think the problem is that the sentence under General is read and then the beginning of the individual criterion is read but not the whole criterion, so they don't read the exclusions. I think adding something to the general sentence would solve the problem. A couple of possible changes:

These apply to every type of page, and so apply to articles, redirects, user pages, talk pages, files, etc unless otherwise noted.

These apply to every type of page with exclusions in the individual criterion below, and so apply to articles, redirects, user pages, talk pages, files, etc.

-- GB fan 11:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

• How about only applying this to the user space if the user is blocked or hasn't edited in a set amount of time, like 6 months to a year? That would mean that obvious tests would be safe, while gibberish by an obvious vandal or stale account would fall under this criteria. If the user is still active and the page is abandoned, you can always ask the user if they still want the page and use it as a teaching moment about user requested deletions. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:20, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

@User:GB fan the carve out for userspace is not specified in Twinkle. even in the popup box. which goes into detail on what is excluded. I find G1 stuff very rarely and had not read the full rules for a while but remembered that G means all pages, most of the time. It is surprising to me that I can create userpages by banging my head on the keyboard or inserting random words on the page and there is no easy way for others to remove it. @Robert McClenon "Material not in English" is a carve out (even in Twinkle popup) and I'm not suggesting changing that. I'm just suggesting we subject all pages to a G criteria, as G is currently defined as covering all pages. Legacypac (talk) 04:38, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Legacypac, If Twinkle does not list the exclusions to G1 and the other G speedy deletion criterion then that is something that should be addressed at WT:TWINKLE. My question is what harm does it do to the encyclopedia if someone wants to bang their head against the keyboard to create their userspage? I personally do not see any harm in having a userpage that says "mk p-0fr543lo097" (made by banging my head against the keyboard). I think we {"the community") spends way to much time cleaning up people's userpsace with no added benefit to the encyclopedia. If there are copyright violations, attack pages or people trying to use Wikipedia servers to host their websites in userspace, I can see a benefit to removing these pages. Nonsense, I see no benefit of removing it as it is not harming anything.

Going back and looking at the G criteria there are a three that have namespace exclusions.

WP:G1 - Excludes user namespace

WP:G2 - Excludes user namespace

WP:G7 - Excludes userspace pages, category pages, and any type of talk page (blanking is not considered a deletion request in these namespaces added 02:27, 1 March 2016 (UTC))

Do you believe that the other namespace exclusions should be removed also? -- GB fan 20:51, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks fan - how about allowing userspace subpages that the author blanks to be G7 deleted? I've found quite a few of these with just the stale draft template on them. I don't think we want to or could delete a person's main userpage right. Legacypac (talk) 02:00, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I still don't understand why the pages should they be deleted. Do the blanked pages harm the encyclopedia? Do we improve the encyclopedia by deleting the pages? -- GB fan 02:27, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Why were U and G criteria created then? Cause it seems silly that we can speedy G6 a blank draft with only the default text on it, but not speedy a blank page with nothing on it. Every page is a place for vandals and inappropriate content, and the unwatched stale ones more so. Legacypac (talk) 02:55, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Use of G6 to delete drafts is an abuse of CSD#G6. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Or not SmokeyJoe "WP:G6 Deleting userspace drafts containing only the default Article Wizard text if the user who created the page has been inactive for at least one year." Legacypac (talk) 05:31, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• G6: "Deleting userspace drafts containing only the default Article Wizard text if the user who created the page has been inactive for at least one" year. This belongs under G3! --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:02, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• I oppose any change that broadens the G criteria so as to apply G1 to userspace pages. I would favor editing the header of the G criteria so as to warn people of the exceptions below. In fact I think i'm going to do that right now. DES ^(talk) 13:04, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Question concerning speedy deletion of drafts

I have recently seen a number of cases when editors have created a draft for submission but instead of following the submission procedure, or in the case the draft submission has been rejected, they have juts copy-pasted the draft to the article space. It is resulting having both—the article and the draft (e.g. KPOGCL and draft:KPOGCL). In the case if the article satisfies speedy deletion criteria, it should be deleted and the draft should be kept (at least 6 months if there is no other criteria for its deletion). But what to do in the case if the created article itself is kept? Logic says that we can't have the article and the draft both at the same time. At the same time, there is no specific criteria for the speedy deletion of the draft. Usually, {{Db-a10}} has been the base odf deletion of the draft, but recently in the case of draft:KPOGCL, and editor rejected speedy deletion with an edit summary: A10 (or any criteria starting with "A") can be used ONLY on articles. They cannot be used on drafts. Therefore, I would like to ask what other criteria is suitable for this case or should we give an explanation that {{Db-a10}} applies also for drafts. If there is no other criteria or {{Db-a10}} can't be expanded to drafts, should we have a special criteria for cases like explained above? Having exactly the same content n current or in some previous versions and having the same title seems to be a valid basis for speedy deletion. Beagel (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Any A criteria applies only to articles. There doesn't appear to be a speedy criterion that is applicable to a draft that is duplicated in article space. Only the G criteria apply to drafts. One possibility would be to take the draft to MFD. However, since the draft was declined by the reviewer, and a copy of the draft then moved into article space, my recommendation would be to nominate the article for AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:38, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

One could redirect the draft to the article. If the draft has relevant history but the article doesn't, I'd probably ask a Db-move deletion on the article followed by a plain move. Or if both have relevant histories, a history merge.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:40, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

On the one hand, redirecting a draft to an article is very common; it is always done by the script when a draft is accepted by AFCH. On the other hand, since I have just nominated the article for AFD, please leave the draft alone so that the author can work on it if the article is deleted. If the article is kept, then the draft can be redirected to the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:43, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Robert, that article was just an example and the question was about the general guidelines in the situations like this. I see that kind of cases at least one or two per month and I really look for new articles only in one specific topic (energy) so there is definitely more of them. Drafts are not always rejected, sometimes they even not been nominated for submission. As for this specific article, I don't think that the result of Afd will be 'delete' as the the article has improved compare to the draft. Beagel (talk) 23:50, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

If a draft and an article both exist and there is no issue about whether to AFD the article, I would suggest MFD-ing the draft, because there isn't a basis for CSD. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:52, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

But maybe we should create new CSD for this? Leaving beside the fact that draft is not an article, in general it is not so different from {{Db-a10}}. As that kind of deletion should not create a lot of discussion, I don't see why we should not use speedy deletion instead of overloading the Mfd process. Beagel (talk) 06:24, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Oppose new CSD criterion, at least until anyone gives an answer to "why not just redirect", noting that every proper draft WP:Move to mainspace leaves a redirect behind. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:49, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

There are many copies of articles that get put in draft or user space and left forever. It is ok to run a copy for a few days, for redrafting purposes, but not to keep alternate versions forever. We had a case recently where someone copied a whole bunch of articles into userspace under the title People I don't like. Not productive.

At Smokey - simple - a move from draft to main is attribution history. A copy from main to draft is just copy paste with no creative effort and nothing to attribute. It only creates an alternative version/fork.

Even if someone does up a draft and copy pastes it to mainspace they are fully attributed for their work, and a redirect adds no attribution value, only something to manage during future page moves. Legacypac (talk) 07:01, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

• WP:UP#COPIES? Use CSD#G12 if you can. Otherwise MfD. I see not so many of them. But seriously, why not just blank or redirect back to the source. Trying to make every past version of every page compliant with WP:COPYRIGHTS is extreme.

I don't think a content fork that exists only in the history behind a redirect to the ongoing article is of any serious concern.

The advantage of the redirect is that any editor can do it without fanfare. The disadvantage of deletion, or moves without redirect, is that it effectively means that an administrator must process [something] for every draft transferred to mainspace.

The disadvantage of a redirect? "a redirect adds no attribution value" is not a disadvantage. " only something to manage during future page moves" not true. Double redirects are not a problem. If the page move involves putting something else at the old title, standard process is already to check and fix all incoming links. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:20, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I should think a redirect would generally be the best solution. It is easy, it is cheap, it preserves any possibly useful history (sometimes multiple people do edit drafts), it does no harm. In the rare case that deletion might be desired, MfD will do the job. I don't see these as sufficiently frequent nor sufficiently uncontroversial to support a new CSD. DES ^(talk) 13:13, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• A redirect is generally a poor man's history merge which is actually the right way to fix a cut-and-paste move, not a redirect. What is actually needed is both a redirect and the proper attribution via an edit summary pointing out which version are from said draft (which can be done much later). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:52, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

• There are many possible variants, and no single best solution. As I see it, in case the material in the draft is hopeless, but not a usable redirect, then the solution is either to let it fall into G13, or use MfD. If it is unneeded but the title is a useful variant, then is a good time time for a redirect. If it can be merged, it should be (it's a little unclear how to do this while preserving the history--I have sometimes done it by accepting the draft under a variant title and then doing the merge--justified by IAR. What is not right is using G12 copyvio to delete copying within wikipedia, because it can always be easily fixed by adding the attribution. As mentioned, a copypaste move by the only editor doesn't actually need to be attributed--the editor could have copied it into his own computer program, which he is entitled to do, and then pasted it into WP as a new contribution from himself, as he is also entitled to do; but if anyone else has modified thedraft, it does need attribution. . DGG ( talk ) 02:17, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

The titling and deletion summary for CSD#U5

re: [2]

As was raised by an IP at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:SwisterTwister_U5_nominations, the U5 section title ("U5. Blatant misuse of Wikipedia as a web host"), and associated deletion summary text, is a bit agressive. We didn't really discuss the section title when creating U5. I think it could be softened and improved.

"Blatant" doesn't really work. Other criteria are for blatant violations, U5 is meant to be easier because it is restricted to creations of non-contributors. And, it is being used on things that are not really "blatant".

I suggested "U5. Not for Wikipedia and by a nongenuine contributor". In short, U5 is for pages that contain material that is not useful for Wikipedia, by editors who were never here contributing usefully. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:44, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

• "Nongenuine contributor" sounds very insulting to me. Not sure if it's a good replacement, thus.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:37, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree. "Not for Wikipedia" is also begging for overly broad interpretations. How about something like: "Content not related to an encyclopedia created by a user with no encyclopedia-related contributions". A2soup (talk) 16:46, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Agree. It is worth making some effort to avoid insults, as it is being repeated thousands of times. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:29, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I support the idea, though I think this phrasing is too vague and somewhat grammatically awkward. How about: "Web hosting content created by a user with few encyclopedia-related contributions." --Mojo Hand (talk) 23:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Like. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:41, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

@Mojo Hand: "Web hosting" has proven to be easily misinterpreted, I think. Lots of people seem to take non-notable drafts and old scratch/test pages to be "web hosting" because they are content hosted here on the web (which is a reasonable thing to think). If you read the policy, though, it's actually about content not related to an encyclopedia. I agree my way to express that is too awkward and vague - any ideas? A2soup (talk) 23:52, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

U5 – Use of Wikipedia as a webhost for material not closely related to encyclopedic goals.

U5 – Webhost material not closely related to encyclopedic goals.

U5 – Use of Wikipedia as a webhost for apparent extraneous content.

U5 – Use of Wikipedia as a webhost for extraneous content.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:22, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I like the first and second ones, but I would delete the "closely" - either it's related or it isn't, and that's a much clearer distinction than whether it is "closely" related or not, whatever that means. CSD is supposed to be as unambiguous as possible. But yeah, I like them, thanks! A2soup (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I vote for the fourth option. For the first two, you will have a variety of editors and admins looking at thousands of pages and not closely related to encyclopedic goals can be interpreted in very different ways. Just look at deletion debates at AfD and you will see what is acceptable to one editor is junk to another. I like extraneous content because that is what we are seeing, drafts about an editor's band which will never reach notability, charts and graphs about reality show contests and sporting events, the use of Article Wizard that only has placed headers on a page with no article. But the common denominator in the pages that are being tagged as U5 is that they have all been abandoned and not edited in at least two years. In many cases, there was one initial edit on the user page, the editor might have made a few other Wikipedia edits and then left a week in July 2012.

The best way to see what definition should be used is to look at the articles that are being tagged U5 and imagine how you might describe the content and why it should not be retained on Wikipedia. It's always better to look at specific cases than argue about abstract definitions that may or may not describe the pages that the tag should be applied to. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:15, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Option 5: U5- WEBHOST: Material unambiguously unsuitable for the encyclopedia" with "created by a user with few or no mainspace edits" in the detailed criteria.

This would exclude work which supports articles because anyone doing that would be making mainspace edits. Nearly all editors will agree myspace bands, a high school amazing race results page, stale drafts consisting of only section headings, dating profiles, "Beth is the greatest girl in the world and I luke watching her in class", resumes. and such are "unambiguously unsuitable" In other words if you think it would get supporters at an AfD to be kept, this is not the right criteria. Legacypac (talk) 01:43, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

"Unsuitable for the encyclopedia" is an argument to avoid in deletion discussions, not a CSD criterion. U5 is about material that is not related to an encyclopedia project, not just "unencyclopedic" content. If you think it would get keep supporters at AfD, you shouldn't even AfD it - a much clearer standard is needed for CSD. A2soup (talk) 02:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Not quite A2soup. "Unsuitable" without additional rational, it is not a meaningful vote in an AfD because we can't read minds and should be avoided. If it is "unambiguously unsuitable for the encyclopedia" no additional rational is needed because nearly all editors looking at it would agree it is unsuitable. To your second point, I AfD and get deleted stuff that I fully expect will get keep votes at AfD, and that expectation should not stop an AfD. One or two keep votes at AfD does not stop deletion when the majority agree to delete. Legacypac (talk) 04:23, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• I'd suggest we re-do that in the format of an RFC, namely different suggestion under different headers and one discussion section. This format does not work well for this kind of discussion. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:43, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
• Prefer Option 5 the most. "created by a user with few or no mainspace edits" is extremely important, and only it allows for a liberal interpretation of "not suitable". Most typically, of the many pages that justified U5, were borderline non-notable/promotional articles, the sort of thing easily debatable at AfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:54, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Agree with RfC. To add to Option 5 rational. This is a catchall situation for all kinds of junk that is limited only by the imagination of random non-contributers. Stale or not stale is irrelevent because we should be able to speedy someone's resume posted yesterday. I don't like labeling users as nongenuine or other such terms as that is offensive and subjective. Few or no mainspace edits is objective. For contributers we give them the benefit of an MfD discussion. Legacypac (talk) 18:16, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• Option 5 works for me.--Mojo Hand (talk) 14:32, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

• ...and for me. JohnCD (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

A new criteria for criteria

The above U5 discussion, and some other recent discussions has me suggesting a proposal.

I would suggest a fifth criteria that future speedy deletion criteria should meet: necessary. As in
Necessary: Usually people propose new speedy deletion criteria to remedy some problem, but in some cases, there is no need to delete the page. Often, the problem can be adequately remedied by blanking the page, or even by just leaving it alone. More speedy deleted pages is more work for our overworked administrators, so if we can avoid it, it is a benefit to everyone.

Is this a good idea, bad idea? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 01:14, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I mean, for anything in the mainspace, if blanking is necessary, deletion is also necessary. I would be in favor of something like this for the U-class (and maybe G-class) criteria, but you're going to get pushback from people who argue that blanking is worse because it can be easily reverted and then has to be dealt with again, ending up taking more time than deletion. If the creator of the userpage you're blanking hasn't edited for years, however, that shouldn't be a problem. A2soup (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, my intention is that this would practially only apply to non-article pages. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:08, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

A2soup is betting that the user does no come back ever, and no other person restores or vandalizes the page no one is watching. I've found vandalism on stale user drafts along with attack pages etc. Blanking is also something anyone can do with no process and no second (admin or xfd) opinions. We are cautioned NOT to go messing with userpages at WP:UP so a more formal process that involves at least 2 editors make more sense to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legacypac (talk • contribs) 01:50, 1 March 2016‎

Blanking doesn't really require a second opinion since anyone can undo it. That's why deletion has such higher standards. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:08, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I completely disagree that blanking is an acceptable alternative to nominating for deletion. Can someone explain to me, in terms of policies and guidelines and in English, why blanking a contested page will not be viewed and cannot be viewed by its creator as vandalism? Normally massive blanking is a form of vandalism. Nominating a page for deletion seems to me to be a far better approach, which does require discussion, than blanking, which will probably result in an edit war. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:31, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

You seem confused maybe? Speedy deletion does not require discussion. Or am I confused? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion does not require discussion, but MFD involves discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• I agree with Robert. At least CSD and MFD give a talk page notice to the editor that their page is going to be dealt with and the person can follow up and respond or point to something that occurred. If we just said that anyone out there, anyone at all, can just go around and blank people's pages without notice or discussion, I'd find that more problematic than just listing these to either CSD or MFD. At MFD, at least users can come back and explain/be told why it's problematic. And that's ignoring the fact that promotional pages are the ones most likely to be problems if you just blank the page and don't look at it again assuming they will go away. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:39, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• Blanking is best done with a blanking template. egs {{Userpage blanked}} and {{Inactive userpage blanked}}. Perhaps this should be mandatory when blanking in another's userspace, and if done would be as good as a CSD and MfD customary talk page notice,as per Ricky's excellent point. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:09, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I have been arguing for blanking only when a stale draft is nominated for deletion because it is stale (there have been a lot of these noms at MfD lately). I do not advocate blanking the pages of active users. In these cases, deletion is only proposed because it is assumed the user will never return. If the assumption the user will never return is correct, then blanking instead of deleting will not be interpreted as vandalism and the blanking will never be reverted; blanking has equivalent results in this case and is preferred because it saves MfD and admin time. There is no edit war in this case because the user does not return. If the assumption the user will never return is incorrect and the user does return, then finding their pages blanked will seem much less like vandalism than finding them deleted. The blanking templates (which should always be used) are friendly and invite the user to revert the blanking, which is a completely appropriate action if the draft was blanked for staleness. There is no edit war in this case because the first revert indicates the draft is no longer stale, so neither blanking nor deletion are appropriate. Of course, I think that just leaving stale drafts be is often an even better option, but that seems unacceptable to some people. If you don't agree with this, please tell me why. A2soup (talk) 14:20, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Blanking gives zero notification (except in Watchlist?) and involves zero additional sets of eyes. It is basically vandelism on a page no one is watching. Now I blank stuff that no one will object to having blanked (short snips of text mostly), but I don't like to do it often. At least a CSD requires a nom and an Admin to confirm. MfD is an even wider exposure. We can then point to following proper process if someone says 'where did my work go'. Also the page is then gone, not hanging around forever with a userspace title and sitting as a place for vandels to play in that no one is watching closely. We are not blanking or MfDing good stuff only for staleness (big misconception) we are deleting stuff that not useful in the encyclopedia for some good reason. Good stuff gets promoted to mainspace regardless of how stale it is. Legacypac (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

The template that should be left after blanking – {{userpage blanked}} – reads:

This userpage has been blanked as a stale draft or as a user page that resembles an article. If this is your userpage, welcome back! You can retrieve the contents of this page in the page history. Alternatively, if you would like it deleted, simply replace the content of this page with {{db-u1}}.

I think this text clearly notifies the user about where their work has gone, explains that the blanking is in good faith and backed by linked policy (it even has a parameter to add additional explanation), and instructs the user about how to recover their work if they wish (this is not the case with MfD). It also instructs the user on how to get the page deleted if they wish. Putting the power in the hands of the user is very much in line with the traditional ownership/privacy of non-harmful userspace (MfD noms are not).

You say "we are not blanking or MfDing good stuff only for staleness", but I can point to many very recent MfD's that give only staleness and failing GNG as a rationale. Since GNG does not appear to apply in the userspace, those MfD noms are based on staleness alone. A2soup (talk) 18:17, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Article Wizard test pages G2 not G6

I propose to move

"Deleting userspace drafts containing only the default Article Wizard text if the user who created the page has been inactive for at least one" year.

from under G6 to under G2 "Test pages". (who put it there?) Having it under G6 is scope creep and overlap with G3. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:06, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• Should be G2 and not G3 - G3 is for malicious pages, i.e vandalism and hoaxes, not for tests.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:06, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks, and sorry. Corrected. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:51, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

It's obviously housekeeping not scope creep. Why not a U# ? Do these show up in mainspace? Legacypac (talk) 17:25, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I would support moving this point to a new WP:U6. Since it specifies only userspace drafts, having it under a G# is odd. And there seems to be controversy about whether it is routine housekeeping. For all these reasons, making it a new U# sounds good to me. A2soup (talk) 17:42, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• There is no good reason to be housekeeping others' userspace. It is rude with benefit, and contradicts the purpose of userspace. Doing it only for inactive users who usually won't complain is no justification. The recent clean up so called stale pages drive is ill-conceived. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:55, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

SmokeyJoe are you suggesting recinding all Ux speedy criteria and stopping any edits to userspace? Legacypac (talk) 01:48, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Not at all? Absolutely nothing wrong with U1 for example. But I am against needless meddling in others' userspace, and against the justification that because the user is not currently active and objecting that there is nothing objectionable about it. Wikipedia:Editors matter. Reasonable leeway in userspace is measured against the users contributions, hence the generous allowance for deletion per U5. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support. I propose it as G6 because I presumed it was uncontroversial. The test page argument had been rejected prior to that discussion but the discussion was closed as either G2 or G6. The proposal to create and populate Category:Blank userpages created with the article wizard instead had no support. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:48, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
• It was added following Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_56#G6_for_default_Article_Wizard_text. Broadly supported, logically belonging under G2 as some noted. It was closed by Guy, "Consensus to allow speedy deletion as G2 or G6". A difference is the nuance that G6 scope creep does not move to tests in userspace. When moved to G2, it should be noted that G2 deletions of "pages containing only the default Article Wizard text" includes instances in userspace, unlike the general G2 case. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:34, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

My own personal view is that this is mere housekeeping. Guy (Help!) 10:28, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Does speedy deletion apply to categories?

Question in title. Also, is there some sort of expiry date on deletion discussions, i.e. if a deletion discussion was held over a decade ago, does the consensus have the same binding effect?--Prisencolin (talk) 05:39, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Categories

Yes. If someone creates a category called Category:Stupid idiots, then it can be deleted as an attack page, for example. There are also several category-specific speedy delete criteria. However, many of the criteria naturally don't apply to categories. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 05:42, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

So a category I tried to rerecreate Category:John Wayne films was deleted by G4. I've been told that the consensus from the mass deletion of film actor categories some time ago was that they should exist. How should I go about getting the category back? Prisencolin (talk)

I believe that you can try WP:DRV, deletion review. The first issue is please review the actual discussion before you try to recreate it. There is no Category:Films by actor at all so until you can provide a justification that covers why any films by actor category should exist, then I wouldn't try to argue that John Wayne are distinguishable. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:42, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I read the deletion discussion, and quite frankly I find most of the arguments for deletion did not have much weight to them pertaining the the John Wayne category. I think the prevailing logic was that since most of them shouldn't exist, none of them should exist.--Prisencolin (talk) 00:24, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Did you read all the underlying decisions as to all the prior times the same issue came up? The actual discussion had two opposing votes: (1) because he had more than 100 films (rejected as a line-drawing mechanism) and (2) complaining because the filmography page had gotten bloated (which a category does not resolve). Else the overall consensus to delete that type of category is going to be pretty good reasoning. Do you have a reason why all the prior discussions should be ignored? Again, is there any basis for any films by actor category, not about John Wayne himself? Otherwise, what's the point of a single John Wayne category than you seem to like the idea? It won't be connected anywhere if we don't have a films by actor category. I mean it is many years old so feel free to try it but you are talking about eight deletions on the same issue with near universal consensus about it. WP:DRV] is always open. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:31, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

• Categories are deleted per G4 a lot. It is one major frustration in category maintenance. SALTing is ineffective, because the same bad categories are re-creative with alternative wording or spelling. If anything like the category was ever deleted at CfD, ask at WT:CfD before recreating. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:15, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I wonder if we should consider using category redirects more aggressively. For example we used to have a lot of BC-era minor year categories and while they get deleted and moved back into millennium, etc it's not obvious. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:31, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Very possibly, but as categorization is complex, and limited, I advise discussing that at WT:CfD. In my opinion, a far better solution is to limit unilateral category creation (categories are very different to content), and to implement dynamic category intersections, Wikipedia:Category intersection, so that categories can be easily used for custom purposes, removing the commonly urge to create custom categories. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:14, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Old deletion discussions

I think the age of the deletion discussion doesn't matter. That said, if the new article is different, no speedy delete. If circumstances have changes (like a tiny ma-and-pop became a huge megacorp), no speedy delete. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 05:42, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Remove G13 completely

Based on the discussions above and at WT:UP, no one has provided a valid reason to delete a stale draft. If you don't like them, blank them and move on. Imagine how much better off we'd be if admin's didn't have to delete G13 drafts all the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.72.99.77 (talk) 21:32, 3 March 2016 (UTC) This is the banned 166 IP editor posting from a different IP range. 103.6.159.92 (talk) 12:02, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

• Do you mean a userpage stale draft? I agree. Also that "stale" is not well defined. However, G13 was motivated by hundreds of thousands of trivially worthless drafts in AfC subpages. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:21, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

• Blank them all. No deletions. Saves time and energy. 107.72.99.77 (talk) 07:32, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with blanking. If the originator has the draft watchlisted, they may revert the blanking. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

What's the problem with such revert?--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

• It'd probably take just as much time to blank something as it would to speedy delete them and as an admin, I actually don't mind doing these. Userspace drafts are somewhat of a different beast, but G13 deletions for old and abandoned AfC articles can be fairly helpful. It saves on server space as there are thousands of abandoned articles that have zero chances of getting accepted, whether it's because of notability, tone, or because they contain no information. Deletion can also somewhat show whether or not the editor is truly interested in improving the article or not and there's an entire board devoted to uncontroversial restores. Sure it takes some time, but this way the drafts get a look over. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:21, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

• Does it actually save on server space? My understanding is that deletion preserves revision history (and I believe revision history deletion as well, though it becomes hidden). Is revision history handled with different servers? I don't see the technical rationale for deleting pages to save server space otherwise. Appable (talk) 14:26, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
• Tokyo, I don't understand how blanking takes the same time as deleting. Any user can blank. Deletion requires one to nominate and a second to delete. That sounds like double the work to me. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:30, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

No it does not save server space. I support deletion, but not because of the space issue.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

• Realized I forgot to comment on the general proposal. My issue with blanking is that Wikipedia can still act as a web host by keeping publically-available drafts. Deleting with ability for authors to request undeletion means that Wikipedia draftspace acts as a work-in-progress article location (as intended), not as a permanent host, but ensures that editors have the ability to get their work back if they abandon them for some time and then rejoin. Appable (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
• I am concerned that leaving unsaveable drafts around might create distractions for users who read through abandoned drafts, either to find salvageable ones or to track down truly problematic content such as libel or copyright violations.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:24, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

• Though I don't support the proposal, I don't think it would be technically complex to add a new Abandoned Drafts hidden category (so users would blank abandoned drafts then template them as abandoned) and control them that way, then exclude abandoned drafts from the normal draft listings in most cases. Appable (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

• G13 is an indispensable and major feature of the AFC/Draft process. I can't think of any compelling reason why it should be deprecated. I think the proposal is a solution looking for a problem. I'd like to hear DGG's thoughts on it. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:14, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

I do longer agree with keeping G13. It helps, but is too indiscriminate. I'd rather see an extension of A7 to drafts over 6 months old, or a requirement that G13 only apply to those drafts clearly and unmistakably unlike to produce an article. And even so it would be better pas some sort of prod. I spend about one-third of my time trying to keep drafts active so they don't get deleted, and restoring G13s deleted by others. I could do more active fixing if I didn't have to do so much mere maintenance. G13 would only be justified if G13'd drafts were easily searchable; others than the author should be easy to find them. Uncontroversial restores don't work for drafts nobody knows about-- or, alternatively, if more people did fixing.

Unless we can make them findable, and sort Draft space by subject categories, it does more harm than good. DGG ( talk ) 03:29, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Clarification: A7 application to drafts over 6 months old, period, or drafts that haven't been edited in 6 months? I think you mean the latter but I'm not quite sure. Appable (talk) 04:03, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

I completely concur with DGG's opinions. I had even proposed to convert G13 to a PROD-like system by introducing a delay period between tagging and deletion (see /Archive 55#4-day delay period for G13 deletions). The proposal was going fine for several days and looked like passing, when of course user:Hasteur came up with his magic formula for causing disruption - suggesting a sidebar proposal -- rejigging his bot so that it issues a warning to users one month before their draft becomes G13 eligible. I never liked this proposal at all but this swayed everyone like anything. It passes near unanimously whereas my prop was immediately stoned to death. What people failed to realise was that the proposped change affected only the G13 nominations done by HasteurBot, which probably makes only half of the G13 nominations. What about the drafts nominated for G13 by human users? They can be still be deleted by any admin without review of the draft's content. What's more, admins can even delete drafts by themselves, ensuring that no one at all can evaluate them. 103.6.159.69 (talk) 20:37, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

There already is a delay period. It lasts six months. --joe decker^talk 03:22, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

• I support the prod-like system, and proposed it Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Draftprod. I'll make it into a former proposal in the next few weeks. At this will require a multitude of steps for approval. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:51, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Gobs of abandoned drafts are undiscovered copyright violations – that have not had and are likely to persist without receiving scrutiny. Many others are promotional, or pure advertisements, or non-notable autobiographies. And most are unsourced or poorly sourced – little better than placeholder suggestions for encyclopedic content, with all the actual work kicked down the road for others. We do not have the manpower to cull the the wheat from the chaff. Getting rid of G13, or something very much like it, means the inevitable creation of a massive and ever growing repository of such content. In an ideal world with endless time on our hands? Sure, just do the work to "save" the small number that aren't complete rewrites and only need a small effort to make them mainspace worthy. But we live very far from that world.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:32, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

+1 to the points just above by Fuhghettaboutit. Furtyer many of these drafts are about topics that already exist. People should edit existing articles or start a proper stub, not hope someone comes and rescues the abondoned draft. Of course if you find a good draft that is useful, promote to mainspace. Legacypac (talk) 01:52, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Isn't redirecting the draft to the mainspace article a clearer signal that the user should work there than deleting the draft? A2soup (talk) 02:38, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Only if the editor respects that. It takes a lot less work to revert that than to create it again. Most of those wholesale copies are created to have their own versions (why else copy and paste something if your version is already there) or to preclude an AFD/merger discussion and those are the people least likely to just suddenly start working on the mainspace one. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

• The "article already exists" examples aren't the real problem, deleting them usually works fine. As folks who've worked at AfC for any significant period of time will tell you, the average AfC submission is a promotional, non-notable company or individual with a fair chance of being a copyvio. There are many articles which are salvageable, but as a percentage, very few, average salvageability is much lower than that of the average new page in article space. In the case of promotional drafts and copyvios they do harm. Delete them. G13 works, but I'm open to *constructive* alternatives that don't, in practice, leave a lot of copyvios visible in any way, and which don't, in practice, support efforts to leverage Wikipedia for promotion, even if that promotion does not rise to the exacting criteria of our other speedy deletion standards. --joe decker^talk 03:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• 'Oppose. I'm not sure how, absent some other process, wholesale removal of G13 is helpful. For all the people who propose blanking these pages for all times, do you propose the same kind of thing for mainspace, talk space, templates, and all others? Why is userspace exempt from the idea of deleting, especially when G13 has a mechanism for reversing that deletion? Just because I put this in user or draftspace doesn't mean it should be exempt from deletion when if i put the exact same text into mainspace, wikipedia space or anywhere else, there would no issues with deletion. It seems like six months is too restrictive as WP:STALE for drafts overall waits at least a year which may be better. I've already suggested a sort of draftprod proposal where anyone, can suggest deletion. The problem is the absolute volume of pages that flow through here is quite unimaginable, especially with a declining workforce of actual editors as opposed to new SPAs only interested in promotional nonsense. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:47, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• Don't remove... Amend - Don't through the baby out with the bathwater. I have NO problem with deleting rejected AfC submissions, and think the broader community would agree. The problem seems to stem from the second part... with deleting unsubmitted AfC submissions. The entire concept of an unsubmitted submission is non-sensical... something is either submitted or it is not. From the discussion, it appears this refers to potential articles and half-finished drafts that are sitting in userspace. I propose that these should not be counted as AfC submissions, until someone actually submits them at AfC (and if they are not counted, I think the "backlog" become much more manageable). Blueboar (talk) 01:20, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

There's no indication of that but I'm not sure how exempting unsubmitted pages would make any backlog more manageable. It would just add to another one, namely AFC pages that haven't been edited in a while. Currently, User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report reports on non-AFC non-redirect pages in draftspace. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:36, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm... perhaps I am confused about the use of terminology here... all of the drafts listed in that report are located in DRAFTspace (as opposed to USERspace). So shouldn't they qualify as "submitted"? Blueboar (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

That is just draftspace. Userspace doesn't really have a good way to finding all old drafts (like anyone would care). All we have is the ones that used to use the wizard. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:52, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

• (RE to Blueboar's March 7th 1:20) And unsubmitted AFC submission is one that is in "draft" (ex: {{AFC_submission/draft}}) mode meaning that the author started the process but hasn't "submitted" it for review and potential promotion to mainspace. Hasteur (talk) 00:19, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

• Keep but amend I think that it is a problem that unsubmitted AfC drafts can be deleted before a proper AfC review. I suggest that we exempt them from G13 and modify the template so that an unsubmitted draft automatically is submitted if not edited for at least half a year. This would ensure that such drafts are properly evaluated before deletion. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:49, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

I could agree with that... if limited to drafts that are located in DRAFTspace (those have been released to the community to work on, and timely review is appropriate)... but I could not agree to automatic submission of drafts that are in USERspace.

Drafts in userspace have NOT been released to the community for consideration. The user may have worked on the draft for years (in dribs and drabs... on and off... taking long breaks), and yet may not feel that the draft is ready to be submitted yet (some of us are perfectionists, who insist on quality over quantity, especially for edits that are made in our name). It would be wrong to take an editor's half-finished work and insist that it be submitted for public consideration, before they say it is ready. We can not force an editor to sully his good name and reputation by publicly associating that name with half-finished content.

OK (some may argue)... but we don't want to lose the information forever. So, what if I copy their work from userspace, and submit this copy at AFC under my user name? Wrong... that is called plagiarism. Presenting someone else's work as your own is never right.

No, we should leave unsubmitted USERspace drafts in userspace, and not move them until that user says he/she is ready to have it considered for mainspace. That said... the fact that a user is working on a draft in userspace does not "reserve" the topic during the time he/she is writing the draft. Another editor (you?) can read the sources, and write their own article on the same topic... and submit that to AfC. Blueboar (talk) 23:36, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

My idea was that pages with {{AFC submission}} which use template parameters saying that the draft hasn't been submitted should be auto-submitted if not edited for half a year. If you want to keep a draft in your userspace for several years, then the page probably doesn't contain {{AFC submission}}, and pages which do not contain that template wouldn't be affected. I'm also proposing automatic submission six months after the latest edit, not six month after the timestamp in the {{AFC submission}} template. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

@Stefan2: HasteurBot (specifically task 2) scans any page that has the AFC submission template on it that is not in User/UserTalk spaces and evaluates it's last registered edit date (which can include minor bot changes). Hasteur (talk) 00:19, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately people are saying that drafts in Userspace can be deleted under this G13 language. If that is not the intent, then there is obviously something that needs to be cleared up in the language. Following on from Stefan's idea... here is what I would suggest:

Adopt a multi-step system: First, To help work though the backlog... a draft that is sitting idle and unsubmitted in DRAFTspace should automatically be submitted to AFC after a reasonable time (say one year after creation). Second, G13 should only apply to actual AFC submissions that have continued to sit unedited for a reasonable time (say another year) - get rid of the confusing "unsumbmitted" language. That gives people lots of reasonable time (two years) to attempt to get a draft into reasonable shape before it would be subject to speedy deletion... but also would ease the burden on the manual reviewers and reduce the backlog. Of course, at any time during the two years, a draft article can reviewed manually and be a) approved, or b) rejected. As an alternative to rejection, a user may request to adopt the draft and have it userfied... ie sent to his userspace to allow him to work on it on his own (note, this request can be denied, but if accepted, the user will have an unlimited amount of time to work on "his" draft. and of course drafts in userspace can still be manually reviewed and deleted for cause... for example: if it contains inappropriate content that is unsuitable for Wikipedia even in userspace - BLP vios, POV rant pages, and the like - however, it will not be deleted simply because the editor who adopted it is busy doing something else, and has put it on the back burner for a while). If it is sent to userspace, it will be renamed as a USER subpage, and removed from DRAFTspace... any AFC templates or coding related to automatic processes like Article Wizard will be removed as well (this will also remove it from backlogs). Blueboar (talk) 03:05, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Why does F11 require notification?

WP:CSD#F11 currently reads: If an uploader has specified a license and has named a third party as the source/copyright holder without providing evidence that this third party has in fact agreed, the item may be deleted seven days after notification of the uploader. Is there any specific reason why this is the only criterion that requires the uploader of a media file to be notified? No other pages that fall under the general, articles, redirects, files, categories, user pages, templates, or portals criteria call for this. It's encouraged and common courtesy, but not particularly required or enforced. Is it necessary to include this in F11? Or is "seven days after notification of the uploader" broad enough simply for the {{di-no permission}} tag on a file's description page to constitute notification? — ξ^xplicit 03:25, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

• Adding {{di-no permission}} to the file information page maybe constitutes notification if the user is watching the file information page and keeps track of activity on his watchlist, but not in other cases. The watchlist practices of users differ and are sometimes unknown, so I don't think that we can assume that the user has been notified merely by the addition of that template to the file information page.

The idea with F11 is that the uploader promptly should provide additional information. If the uploader is unaware that additional information has been requested, then the whole waiting period becomes pointless, so it seems that a notification indeed is needed for this deletion process. I find it strange that F4 doesn't contain the same wording, since F4 also needs notification if we want the deletion process to be meaningful.

The problem seems to be that a user has filled up Category:Wikipedia files missing permission with hundreds of files where the {{di-no permission}} template indicates the date of tagging, not the date of notification, and it is thus necessary to change the dates in the template into the unknown dates in the future when the uploaders will be notified. I have asked the tagging user to fix this. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:11, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

If the uploader is unaware that additional information has been requested, then the whole waiting period becomes pointless, so it seems that a notification indeed is needed for this deletion process. This can literally be said about any of the criteria listed, but none of the others require notification. There is no policy that requires the author of a page to receive notification of deletion—not under speedy deletion, not at AFD, not at CFD, or any other deletion venue—so F11 requiring one makes little sense and is ultimately delaying the deletion of content that can ultimately be copyright violations, which we needlessly need to continue to host on the basis that the uploader wasn't notified. It's another task forced onto deleting admins to check the author's talk page to see if they were notified there, which further burdens the dwindling number of admins in general, let alone the nearly non-existent presence of admins who deal with media files on a daily basis. It's unreasonable and unmanageable. — ξ^xplicit 02:17, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I would think it'd be a far better idea, in that case, to add a term of notifying the creator for F5, F6, and F7 (the two-day and seven-day ones, not the immediate ones). I can't imagine it'd take a lot of time to go to page history and check if the author has gotten a talk page notification — the majority of file violations will probably be less-experienced users who don't have any archives yet anyway — and it doesn't make a lot of sense to remove content without the author having a chance to rectify any issues with the file. Files are difficult on Wikipedia already so we shouldn't just be ready to delete every file without first making sure the uploader has a chance. Appable (talk) 04:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Except you missed the steps that would need to take place after checking user talk pages. If notification was not given, then it would require the reviewing admin to: a) notify the uploader themselves and reset the date on each file description page, daily; b) remove the tag and expect the user who tagged it to begin with to come back to tag and notify the user - and if that doesn't happen, a file would sit there missing permission, or a license, or a fair use rationale indefinitely. Files deleted under F5 usually come in average of 60 a day: CAT:ORFU. Sometimes that number can go into the 100s or 200s, and I remember a few years ago where I dealt with a case where there were well over 500 files in one day's category. The other categories vary, but they can get just as ridiculous from time to time. Add the WP:FFD and WP:PUF backlogs to that, the former of where closures have gotten more difficult and time-consuming after WP:NFCR process was merged into it. Most of the admins that helped in these areas have all vanished, so I deal with as least 80% of all of this (and that's a modest estimate).

For some odd reason, there's this sentiment that media files are extremely difficult and almost impossible to retrieve after being deleted. Most files can be restored on the spot by request—F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F8, F10, F11, and in certain cases F7 are uncontroversial deletions, something the community appears to be unaware of or a concept they simply fail to grasp—and in cases where any editor can address the concerns, I do myself. — ξ^xplicit 08:17, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Question: when a file is deleted under F11, how does the uploader find out that he/she can request that it be restored? Blueboar (talk) 12:32, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

A bot could be written which checks if notification has been given. If no notification is given, the bot can either fix the date and notify the user, or list the file at PUF/FFD. This would save some time for the admin evaluating the request. The whole idea with the delay in F4, F5, F6, F7 and F11 is that users should be able to fix something, and therefore a notification is very important. I'm not sure how much time the admin should be required to spend on checking that notification has been given. If there are hundreds of files in a category, it would take a long time to do this.

F5 tags are usually added by a bot which always notifies the uploader unless the user talk page is fully protected or the user opts out from notifications by using {{nobots}}, I think. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:14, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Adding a footnote to expand the clarification for A11

Hello. I am adding a footnote to A11 to expand the clarification of A11 to reduce the errors of CSD tagging of A11. The footnote is as follows:

• <ref>For the CSD A11 tag to be applied to any article, it is not enough requirement that the subject seems to have been made up one day. There has to be an evidently visible plain indication – without the need for additional research – to any neutral editor viewing the article text and the related contributions of the author, that the author or someone they know may have invented/coined/discovered the subject of the article. The criterion does not apply to any article where such a "plain indication" is not evident. At the same time, the requirement of a plain indication does not preclude attempts to reasonably confirm the existence or significance of the topic. Editors are strongly encouraged to undertake such reasonable research on the topic before nominating an article under this criteria.</ref>

If any updations/deletions/additions are required, do please suggest. Thanks. Xender Lourdes (talk) 05:10, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

That footnote uses language that seems a bit redundant. If you says "there must be a plain indication", repeating "it doesn't apply if there isn't a plain indication" is redundant and condescending. If there is consensus for this change, I would suggest modifying it to something like:

• <ref>For the CSD A11 tag to be applied to an article, there has to be a plain indication – without the need for additional research – that the author or someone they know may have invented/coined/discovered the subject of the article. At the same time, editors are strongly encouraged to confirm the existence or significance of the topic before nominating an article under this criteria.</ref>

However, I'm not sure that there is consensus for the "without additional research" clause. Imagine, for example (and this is similar to a real case I came across not too long ago), an article created by JohnDoe105412 for the term Oraspulatic, that says "Oraspulatic is a term popularized by the website oraspulatic.wordpress.com", the website in question starts with "I developed the term oraspulatic a few years ago to describe how awesome I am", and the only other websites that mention the term are message board and reddit threads started by JohnDoe105412. In this case, the article plainly indicates that the term was created by a website, the website plainly indicates it was created one day, and the reasonable attempts to confirm significance failed. There is still a plain indication that the subject was "made up one day", it just requires a bare minimum of additional research. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 16:00, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

unimproved copy

In G4. Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion, The word unimproved copy seems to be redundant and meaningless, If no one objects, I would like to remove it from the policy. Mardetanha ^talk 16:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

The word "unimproved" seems to be redundant to the second sentence. --Stefan2 (talk) 16:55, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Well sometimes I will delete on G4 if the recreated article is worse with fewer references than the original. Strictly it is not identical, but even more likely to fail the AFD. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:23, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

current text fixes the issue, thanks Mardetanha ^talk 13:55, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Speed of A1 and A3

special:New pages includes instructions not to apply A1 and A3 tags in the first few minutes of an articles existance, those instructions don't seem to be in New Pages feed and I'm not sure they are in Twinkle. I'm assuming we want to keep the rule to give some protection to newbies creating articles, would anyone object if I add it to this page? Currently we say "Caution is needed when using this tag on newly created articles." - I suggest we replace those words with "don't apply in the first minutes after an article is created." ϢereSpielChequers 22:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

• I would support such a change. DES ^(talk) 23:14, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
• Probably be more specific for the wording. Such as "This does not apply to articles less than xx minutes old. Not sure what should go in the xx. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 00:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

How about 30 minutes? VQuakr (talk) 01:43, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

ETA - WP:NPPNICE suggests a mathematically unfortunate "at least 10 to 15 minutes" for new page patrollers. VQuakr (talk) 01:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

• For reference, Special:NewPages. I think "first minutes" is fine. The language for cleanup tagging is also warning against tagging "within minutes" and that seems sufficient to evaluate the speed of tagging for NPP. Otherwise, I'd say any actual concrete minute or hour limit in policy should be discussed as a change to A1 and A3 instead that can be incorporated there. Else, I'd say just say not to make as patrolled. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:44, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• The important part is that they aren't actually deleted immediately after creation. Early tagging is comparatively harmless, though there's of course a WP:HNST consideration. Still, I think I'd rather get a notification that an article I created was on death row immediately after creating it, and thus have the opportunity to save it, than to get resounding silence for 15 minutes or half an hour or whatever's getting proposed here, followed by tagging, talk page notification, and deletion within a minute of each other. —Cryptic 01:57, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

No, just the tagging bites new editors even if the page is not deleted. New editors frequently hit "save" before the article is ready for review; the time interval is intended to allow them to continue editing ie they might not be an A1 after 15 minutes. Hasty tagging causes edit conflicts, which can be confusing for new editors as well. VQuakr (talk) 03:45, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

(ec) Early tagging usually causes the newbie to remove the tag, which gets them in more trouble. The tag is huge and red, and if you are trying to make a page and don't know CSD policy (and what newbie does?), your first priority is to get rid of it. This diverts them from actually improving the page. Also, immediately dropping a giant red tag on a newbie's brand-new page while they are building it is a pretty serious WP:BITE and discourages contributions. I would support a 15-30 minute waiting period. A2soup (talk) 03:53, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Deletion tagging drives newbies away - once an article is tagged for deletion that's often the last we see of the author. It isn't just that their work has been instantaneously rejected, but if they were trying to add the next sentence they probably lost it in an edit conflict to the tagger. ϢereSpielChequers 07:37, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Early tagging is a serious problem, also for A7 pages, as it very likely stops the writer from actually improving the page. I have had to issue quite a few warnings in the last few days. We should wait at least an hour before inserting speedy delete tags, ( or other tags that cause edit conflicts for no benefit). Can twinkle be programmed to not allow premature tagging? (though if it comes to an article about a high school kid or hip hop artist or DJ the mouse will head straight for the delete button with no check for early nomination) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:44, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Tsang-gi ni it was tagged with a prod within 2 minutes after creation by user:Oshwah. So the problem is not only with speedy delete tags. In this case the writer kept writing however. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:52, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better to formulate it as a general rule that any deletion tags/noms have to wait 15 minutes, with exceptions for tags that can be applied immediately. At a glance, the "immediate" tags would be A2, A5, A10, A11, G1, G3, G5, G7, G10, G11, and G12. Everything else should wait at least 15 minutes, including PROD and AfD. G4 is should not be immediate because they may intend to improve the page, in which case the correct action is usually userfication, not speedy deletion. Agree that IAR would be appropriate for super obvious A7s, but that takes more judgment than we seem to be able to count on. A2soup (talk) 12:28, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of certain type of draft pages

How about:

• CSD D1: Very short drafts older than one week with no sufficient context provided to identify the subject of the article. (equivalent of A1)
• CSD D2: Drafts older than one week consting of no content but merely a rephrasing of title, chat-like comments, a question that should have been asked at the help or reference desks, etc. (modification of A3) However, drafts consisting of just an infobox or a list of references or further reading links, or material which may indicate the potential creation of an article, are ineligible per this criterion.

The above may be useful to clear away the really trash pages from the draftspace without having to circummvent the CSD policy (which is unfortunately going on in full flow in recent days, mostly through the use G2 and G6 where they are not strictly valid) and without having to take them to MFD. There are lots of junk pages, for example, listed at User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report that could be deleted per above criteria.

103.6.159.91 (talk) 16:04, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

If an inexperienced user asks a question at the wrong venue, then the user should be directed to the correct venue. Deletion of the question won't help the user. --Stefan2 (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree. But that does the question can stay there. Why do we have A3? 103.6.159.91 (talk) 16:23, 11 March 2016 (UTC)