Wikipedia:Featured article review
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Reviewing featured articles This page is for the review and improvement of featured articles (FAs) that may no longer meet the featured article criteria. FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted. There are three requisite stages in the process, to which all users are welcome to contribute. 1. Raise issues at the article's talk page
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Featured article reviews
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Dana boomer 14:51, 13 June 2011 [1].
Review commentary
- Notified: User:Rick Block, User:Gill110951, User:Glopk, (top 3, the next two are topic banned) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Statistics Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television Game Shows Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Game theory Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Psychology
WP:WIAFA concerns (1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, possibly 1e, 2a) are detailed below. But before delving into the details, I'll point out that there are major, long-term disagreements among a number of editors on how to present the topic involving the tension between WP:MTAA and WP:NPOV that have been going on for years, and culminated in an ArbCom case where two of the long-term contributors have been sanctioned, and several placed on restrictions or reprimanded. Unfortunately, the departure a couple of ArbCom-sanctioned editors has changed nothing of substance in topics in disagreement between the remaining editors. The issue that WP:FAR should be concerned with is that those disagreements have negatively impacted the end product: the article itself. Below, I organize my presentation by topic rather than WIAFA criteria, because some topics involve multiple criteria (even butting heads depending how one chooses to favor clarity or their view of npov) but I'll point them out. Before continuing, I disclose that I have contributed a couple of large-block-size diffs to this article, and a few minor ones. Of course, whether a change is semantically major or not doesn't exclusively depend on how much text is changed, so below I review the revision of the article before I had contributed anything, particularly because several long-term contributors to this article think that some of my edits were not an improvement.
1) Lead clarity vs. npov issues on the multiple interpretations/variants of the natural language statement leading to distinct mathematical problems. (WIAFA 1a, 2a, and 1d) Can you tell what do the words "randomly" and "overall" mean in the following chunk of the lead (emphasis mine)?
“ | Although not explicitly stated in this version, solutions are often based on the additional assumptions that the car is initially equally likely to be behind each door and that the host must open a door showing a goat, must randomly choose which door to open if both hide goats, and must make the offer to switch.
As the player cannot be certain which of the two remaining unopened doors is the winning door, and initially all doors were equally likely, most people assume that each of two remaining closed doors has an equal probability and conclude that switching does not matter; hence the usual answer is "stay with your original door". However the player should switch—doing so doubles the overall probability of winning the car from 1/3 to 2/3. |
” |
The part of the lead quoted I have quoted is supposed to communicate a mathematical result, as opposed to the vos Savant version just above it. Can you tell if the emphasized words are there for a purpose or are superfluous? What is hidden behind those two is the mathematical equivalent of WP:WEASEL wording that is trying hide a dispute in the interpretation of vos Savant's words, as I tried to explain [2]
“ | Although not explicitly stated in this version, solutions are often based on the additional assumptions that the car is initially equally likely to be behind each door and that the host must open a door showing a goat, must uniformly choose which door to open if both hide goats, and must make the offer to switch. As the player cannot be certain which of the two remaining unopened doors is the winning door, and initially all doors were equally likely, most people assume that each of two remaining closed doors has an equal probability and conclude that switching does not matter; hence the usual answer is "stay with your original door". However the player should switch—doing so doubles the probability of winning the car from 1/3 to 2/3.
A common variant of the problem, assumed by several academic authors as the canonical problem, does not make the simplifying assumption that host must uniformly choose the door to open, but instead that he uses some other strategy. The confusion as to which formalization is authoritative has led to considerable acrimony, particularly because this variant makes proofs more involved without altering the optimality of the always-switch strategy for the player. In this variant, the player can have different probabilities of winning depending on the observed choice of the host, but in any case the probability of winning by switching is at least 1/2 (and can be as high as 1), while the overall probability of winning by switching is still exactly 2/3. |
” |
Rick Block writes that the distinction between the two interpretations (and thus two mathematical problem-objects, one a subset, i.e. particular case of the other) is not important enough for the lead. It may not be immediately apparent why this is also a WIAFA 2a issue, but it becomes evident once you try to read the rest of article: the lead simply fails to prepare the reader for the problem variations which the proponents of various methods argue that their method is "the best". David Hilbert said "He who seeks for methods without having a definite problem in mind seeks for the most part in vain." The major problem variants don't have to be in the lead, but they should be certainly be stated before the several solutions are given, because these also try to convince the reader that the other approaches are wrong or superfluous.
There are plenty of secondary sources that make this separation, e.g. Rosenhouse (2009) ISBN 0195367898 by chapter, but not Wikipedia. In a similar vein, User:Kmhkmh argues that even presenting one of the variants ahead of the other is "nothing but a subtle POV pushing". If you wonder how this could possibly be so, the answer is the next paragraph.
2) Another lead issue is that MHP made it to the pages of the New York Times (the first time around) in no small part because mathematicians disagreed on what math problem vos Savant's words should translate to, with some of them proposing even other variants besides the above two. Of course, I'm not proposing a list in the lead, but a large part of MHP's notability is due to its confusing language, at least in its original formulation, which should be said in the lead (WIAFA 2a/1d).
3) Using a degenerate case to illustrate the use of the "best" proof method for a more general problem/variant. (Like insisting on solving using the quadratic formula). I argue that doing this is confusing for the reader (WIAFA 1a) and I gave a list of RSes not doing this (besides Rosenhouse), i.e. who explicitly introduce the general case or a particular non-uniform (usually deterministic) strategy for Monte, (e.g. always showing preference for one of the doors when he has a choice) before using a general method. Rick Block however says that doing so in not npov (WIAFA 1d trumping 1a), arguing that the majority of math sources do this. Even assuming this is true (a claim for which he provided no evidence), it's still not clear that a head count is the best selection criteria for proofs. I tried to engage him in a more detailed discussion on how he compares two proofs for authority by asking him to compare one from Ken Binmore with one (Morgan's) Rick seems to favor, but so far without getting any reply on that.
(I'll stop with giving WIAFA callouts from here on because they are obvious for the remainder of this review.)
4) Inconsistent terminology throughout the article. Examples include referring to overall/average probability but also calling the case/path probability total. Requests to synchronize terminology from different sources met with "I'd rather not change it". As a results, the article is a terminological pastiche, contravening WP:MOSMATH.
5) Disorganized presentation and tangentiality. Before and after giving some solutions with quote/paraphrases whether the "simple" solutions are wrong, without ever trying to present this matter coherently (because that would require explicitly stating several problem variants). Text reads like "blah, blah, blah, did I mention the simple solutions are wrong?, blah, blah, ... , did I mention the simple solutions are wrong?, blah, blah, ..., did I mention the simple solutions are wrong?, blah ..."
6) The above is the result of endless POV wars between true believers in the various solutions, who frankly seem to be clueless that are talking about different problems. ArbCom didn't ban all of them, unfortunately, only the worst offenders. The counterpoint to the oft repeated (from one source!) claim that simple solutions are wrong, i.e. "the simple solution is right in the case of equal conditional probabilities (because the overall probab. is their average)" has been recently deleted from the article as "unverifiable" even though it was cited. Quite amusing chutzpah, given that several other sources concur with that, e.g. Rosenthal 2005/2008 [3] and those are free on-line. Ironically Rosenhouse cites Wikipeida for inspiration when making this point at p. 52 in his book. I guess this makes him completely unreliable per WP:CIRCULAR! He read the WP:Wrong version too! Someone email Science (journal) (which published a reviewed of the book doi:10.1126/science.1177947) right away! Never mind he is a math prof at James Madison University, and can probably evaluate whether a argument like this is convincing or not.
7) The problem variants from given the large table are poorly organized and some are of questionable relevance. Never mind they repeat the snuck-through-the-back door variant that this-or-that solution was really solving. E.g. "The host acts as noted in the specific version of the problem." I have no idea what that refers to. Or "The host opens a door and makes the offer to switch 100% of the time if the contestant initially picked the car, and 50% the time if she didn't. Switching wins 1/2 the time at the Nash equilibrium." If you assume that the host strategy is fixed, it's a little silly to speak of a Nash equilibrium. It's a one-player game against nature, something that many game theory books don't even consider a game. Some decent secondary source like Chun 1999 or Rosenhouse should be used to organize variants.
8) Excessive formulism (for lack of a better term) is one of the Bayes' solution #1. Self-evident eye sore.
9) The "Sources of confusion" section is confusing if not downright POV. There are two issues: people being confused after being presented a definite math problem, and people being confused by the ambiguous formulation(s). No attempt is made to separate these. The implicit assumption there is that those making different assumptions about the game are idiots (other than Morgan of course, we are again reminded that the simple solutions are wrong!), including the profs from the NYT piece, and sources like Chun 1999.
10) Poorly researched from a formal sciences perspective (i.e. limited to STAT 101). Trivial variations between a bunch of proofs are presented as something of note. My note on the lack of serious game theory treatment in the article, which (I think) stymies understanding and only prolongs the absurd discussions, have been met with repetitions of the same obsessive "unconditional vs. conditional" mantras which have nothing to do with this issue. As David Eppstein put in on the ArbCom page, the so-called "advanced solution" using Bayes' theorem is the "basic of basics" as far as probability & decision theory is concerned.
Bayes' theorem vs is like mom's meat grinder next to a food processing plant when up against extensive-form games and Markov decision processes, (no need to skin the pig or chop the meat manually before the machinery takes over). As Ken Binmore puts it, once you formulate it as an EFG you hardly have to (creatively) think at all, meaning you just apply a well known algorithm to solve it. (Same goes for MDP or formulating it as a Bayesian game). Sources usable for this:
- Ken Binmore, Playing for real, ISBN 0195300572, pp. 77-79, 84-85, 91-92, 385-386 (uses MHP as a running example) -- EFG approach, the most insightful
- Chun 1999 [4] -- Bayesian (matrix) game approach with linear programming solution (with some "information economics" chaff that can be ignored).
The fact that the above two are equivalent approaches is non-trivial in general, a result that played no small part in these guys getting a Nobel prize.
- Handbook of weighted automata, doi:10.1007/978-3-642-01492-5, pp. 527-536 -- MDP approach, iterated value solution (uses MHP as running example to introduce the notions) This works because Monty has only one move.
10) Issues related to interpretation of probability not discussed. Suggested source: Georgii ISBN 3110191458 (3rd ed.) pp. 54-56 (More correctly these are framed as issues stemming from what can or cannot be assumed common knowledge (logic). Crucially, the definition of a game like EFG assumes the rules are known by all player.) Also Rosenhouse pp. 84-88, but it's less useful. Olofsson ISBN 0470040017 pp. 50-52 discusses it the same way as Georgii, but with less formalism.
11) Issues stemming from bounded rationality not discussed. E.g., doi:10.1002/bdm.451 Related to this, Rosenhouse p. 135-136 discusses "feeling bad about switching" (Olofsson also mentions this), and with Chun 1999 codifies this as an alternate game where the Von Neumann–Morgenstern utility does not equal the lottery probability. Chugh and Bazerman 2007 [5] is a good overview here.
12) For the uniform problem a combinatorial argument (with 6 layouts by numbering the goats) is given in Rosenhouse p. 54 (taken from Williams ISBN 052100618X pp. 73-74). Richard Isaac discusses a slightly different sample space counting approach in ISBN 038794415X, pp. 8-10. These are sufficiently different proofs to include I think. (Isaac also discusses the Gillman, OMG subtle POV variant, if you're curious, on p. 27)
I hope some article improvements come out of the above, but I'm not holding my breath. A fair number of editors repeat on talk the article is fine. Others make weird edits with strange if not misleading summaries reminiscent of WP:ARBPIA articles and stonewall to perfection on talk. Of course, this article may well deserve its FA star as "the best Wikipedia could ever produce on this topic given its social dynamics", but the answer to the question: "is this article a good presentation of the topic based on the sources available", the answer is clearly no in my mind. Overall the article reads to me like it was produced by a committee of humanities journalists who read a few math articles, and cobbled them together without really understanding what they are saying or trying to integrate them in a coherent (mathematical) presentation.
And as a courtesy for my time investment, please do not edit what I wrote above to either strike anything or interject your replies between my paragraphs. I have numbered the issues, so you can easily address them in the unlimited space below, and let the FA(R) director/delegates decide. Tijfo098 ([[User talk: |talk]]) 23:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Tijfo, I cannot seem to find a notification from you of the possibility of a FAR on the article talk page. This notification is required as the first step in the FAR process. If you have not made this notification, and allowed time for the (obviously) active editors to work on the article, then this review should be placed on hold. FAR is for articles that have degraded to the point that they no longer meet the FA criteria, and do not have editors interested in working on them, as shown by a lack of response to the initial notification. Dana boomer (talk) 00:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not see that requirement (that I must explicitly "threaten" with a FAR) at WP:FAR [6], only "In this step, concerned editors attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article. Articles in this step are not listed on this page." I have tried that. See the Talk:Monty_Hall_problem/Archive_23. The same discussion has been going in circles since then on the non-archived talk. I hoped the remaining participants would come up with something other than reiterating what they have been saying for 22 talk page archives. Slim chance of that, I'd say. Tijfo098 (talk) 01:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Tijfo098: Since I'm incorrectly cited above, I'd correct that and clear up some possible misunderstandings as well.
- I did not argue that "presenting one of the variants ahead of the other is 'nothing but a subtle POV pushing'". Instead I've argued declaring one variant as "the" (canonical) MHP and the others "mere" variants is subtle POV pushing, because it suggests to reader that the variants are solving slightly different problems from that ("original") one posed by Whitaker in vos Savant's column (note its Whitaker's words/problem not vos Savant's), which is not simply not correct as some of those variants deal precisely with Whitaker's problem rather than a modified version. The crux is here that Whitaker's problem is ambiguous and there are different possibilities to address the ambiguity leading to different solutions or "variants". Whether this squabbling over the use of the word variant is of any importance depends how the article is written. If the lead is written as suggested above, I have no issue with that. However in the past there was a push to move anything regarding "variants" (and the ambiguity of the problem) completely out of the lead and first chapters ("keept it simply for the less educated reader"). That means a reader not reading the complete article but just the lead and/or first chapters would not have been aware of the ambiguity of the problem, various variants adressing the same ambiguous wording and the disagreement among mathematcians themselves, instead he would have learned only about the spat between vos savants and some acdemics and the related media storm and switching is the best strategy.
- I agree that the article appears a bit like patchwork (as a result of the "eternal disagreements". Imho the best solution would be if all old editors voluntarily withdraw from the article (other than commenting) and a few new qualified editors attempt a complete overhaul. However you'll have to keep in mind that the MHP somehow works like magnet attracting plenty of editors who feel the need to leave "their" mark on the article often with a almost religious fervor. So even if the overhaul succeeds, unless the article is not closely guarded chances are over time it will turn into a patchwork again.
--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, a fair number of sources: Rosenhouse (chapter title is "Classical Monty"), Isaac ("The most common version of the problem ..." p. 27), Rosenthal (gives other names to the variants like Monty Small) do make a choice as to what they consider the common interpretation; I can easily scrounge for more RS remarks like that. I do see the point that others (sources and Wikipedians alike) don't see it that way; they see their version as canonical. I think it's a minor issue of wording and perhaps WP:INTEXT attribution. Instead, at least two long term contributors hold the intelligibility of the article hostage over this issue. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Their line of POV pushing is to argue that old papers, who usually have more citations simply because of that (first-mover advantage), are cited because they are right. Even if they the had a calculation error that stood [officially] uncorrected for 20 years, which may well have affected the authors' judgement of the simple solutions, because their fancy solution gave a different numerical result. Oops. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is also a problem of POV pushing based on Kraus and Wang. The Bayes formula lovers insist that K & W empirically prove that most people don't get the simple proof(s). [7] At the same time, these Wikipedians ignore the fact that K & W also show that while common people "buy" the Bayes's formula proof, they are utterly unable to apply it to a similar problem (considered a more realistic test of comprehension by K & W). So K & W is an RS when it agrees with their POV, but not when it doesn't. [8] Classic signs of POV pushing right there. No point in me arguing with these guys ad infinitum. (The diffs I gave are representative, but the same arguments are being repeated on the current talk page by the same main contributors. Typical edit from one of them: [9]) Tijfo098 (talk) 12:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well as I said, with your suggested lead I have no issue with use of the term of variant in there, but my comment to referring to (older) tendencies by (other) authors. I agree that there is also "pov pushing" from other side(s) as well, the problem is that too many editors insist on their personally favoured way to read & treat MHP and try to marginalize everything else and various sources just serve as tools in that battle. Editors often don't seem to care what a particular source is saying overall, but they just pick snippets suiting their agenda. Imho a stable and reasonably good article will only be achieved if all participants (including us) are willing accept that the article cannot match their preferred treatment of MHP. Since there seem to be various righteous and almost religious beliefs and a lot of invested ego from all sides, I think the article would need to rewritten by new authors, old authors might help out by providing information but they need to refrain from editing and give up on seeing their favored treatment in the article. Doing so (egowise) might be easier with respected new authors rather than "giving in" to other side of the longterm conflict.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We're in agreement here. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes! The nail is hit on the head. Richard Gill (talk) 10:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We're in agreement here. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well as I said, with your suggested lead I have no issue with use of the term of variant in there, but my comment to referring to (older) tendencies by (other) authors. I agree that there is also "pov pushing" from other side(s) as well, the problem is that too many editors insist on their personally favoured way to read & treat MHP and try to marginalize everything else and various sources just serve as tools in that battle. Editors often don't seem to care what a particular source is saying overall, but they just pick snippets suiting their agenda. Imho a stable and reasonably good article will only be achieved if all participants (including us) are willing accept that the article cannot match their preferred treatment of MHP. Since there seem to be various righteous and almost religious beliefs and a lot of invested ego from all sides, I think the article would need to rewritten by new authors, old authors might help out by providing information but they need to refrain from editing and give up on seeing their favored treatment in the article. Doing so (egowise) might be easier with respected new authors rather than "giving in" to other side of the longterm conflict.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. For the record, and to provide a clear link - this article was the subject of a recent arbitration case - Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty Hall problem. The final decision, filed March 25 2011, may be found at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty_Hall_problem#Final_decision. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:02, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that the article, as it currently stands, is not representative of "the very best of Wikipedia". Its present structure was "frozen in time" in the middle of an edit war (the "Aids to Understanding" section was being bounced up by and down). The content of several paragraphs is obscure, if not contorted (my favorite is: "they do not explicitly address their interpretation of vos Savant's rewording of Whitaker's original question (Seymann)."). Because of said edit war, and the intervening edit semi-freezes during mediation and arbitration, no clarity is shed any longer on the criticism of the simple solution. Overall I agree with Tijfo098's assesment, although not with his assesment of the editors' motives. So yes, this is 'not an FA, it hasn't ben for quite some time. glopk (talk) 01:16, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think a desirable outcome here would be a clear consensus of a path for article improvement. Normally, this is what a featured article review achieves. If, as seems likely, that path is still very contentious on certain points, then I think FAR may not be the right instrument to deal with these (real or perceived) problems with the article. It seems to me that the sort of criticisms raised in the FAR here are the kinds of things that would be, for the most part, better addressed on the discussion page of the article first. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is an overly optimistic view of the editing environment on Wikipedia. The plain reason I started this FAR is that I think the article fails WIAFA in many ways, and that no reasonable time frame for addressing the issues seems forthcoming. Endless circular discussions on talk page (that have been going on for at least two years) is not a criteria for promoting or keeping articles as FA. In fact it's one for demoting them (1e), assuming the disagreements are in good faith, of course. Now that ArbCom has filtered out the perceived (really) bad apples, I was expecting progress, but alas that doesn't seem realistic. Tijfo098 (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps that is true in this case. But I think it should be a priority in this process to develop some clarity on what needs to happen in order for the article to regain its FA status. I have some sense that the recent bout of petty quarrels is probably not that significant in the grand scheme of the FA status. Perhaps, if there is a clear path laid out, editors can work together to achieve a common goal, rather than working at cross purposes. Although the achievability of this outcome also relies on a healthy dose of optimism. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:45, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This is an overly optimistic view of the editing environment on Wikipedia. The plain reason I started this FAR is that I think the article fails WIAFA in many ways, and that no reasonable time frame for addressing the issues seems forthcoming. Endless circular discussions on talk page (that have been going on for at least two years) is not a criteria for promoting or keeping articles as FA. In fact it's one for demoting them (1e), assuming the disagreements are in good faith, of course. Now that ArbCom has filtered out the perceived (really) bad apples, I was expecting progress, but alas that doesn't seem realistic. Tijfo098 (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Glopk hits the nail on the head here. The article is its current form is definitely not FA-class - but it has been on semi-freeze status during a protracted mediation and arbitration process. I suspect nearly all of Tijfo098's comments could be addressed by simply editing the article, since most are completely unrelated to the disagreements still running rampant on the talk page. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I read the article a year or two ago and was pretty impressed with it at the time. I looked at it again during the recent arb case and it seemed to me that it had gotten worse since when I'd read it earlier. I think the FAR may have been a bit premature since the arb case may have changed the balance of forces in the content dispute enough to be able to fix the problems through normal discussions. Maybe it's possible now to salvage stuff from the edit history that got corroded in later versions prior to the arb case.
FWIW, I prefer less technical approach in the lead; for example, I had no trouble understanding "chooses randomly" (Donald O. Granberg's review in Science of Rosenhouse's book uses the same word in its own lead paragraph). "Uniformly" (while more precise) is IMO likelier to confuse a non-mathematical reader. In the arb case discussions I mostly agreed with Glkanter's content preferences, and found it sad that he was so terrible at collaborative editing that he had to be banned (there was really no choice about that).
That Granberg (the book reviewer) is a sociologist rather than a mathematician gives me the idea of trying to "user test" the article, by going over to a non-mathematical wikiproject (like sociology) and asking for volunteers to read various versions of the articles and say which parts they found understandable. As math nerds we all understand the subject too well to put ourselves in the heads of the non-math people we are trying to communicate it to. 69.111.194.167 (talk) 08:34, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern mentioned in the review section include prose, referencing, stability, POV and MOS compliance. Dana boomer (talk) 15:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've not followed the article's talk page closely, but upon reading it today, it seems to me that the developments in the past few weeks can be summarized as "we agree to disagree" among the regulars. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:33, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As one of the editors working on this, I would like to report that we are currently making excellent progress toward a restructured and greatly improved article. Content disputes are being handled the proper way, consensus is being sought, and pretty much everyone is working together in a friendly and productive manner. There are still disagreements over content, but there is also a plan to move forward and resolve those disagreements. I will report back here when the restructuring and editing is done, and that would be a good time for a featured article review. BTW, we really could use some more eyes looking at this and making comments or editing the page. It is easy to miss the obvious if you stare at the same material again and again. Guy Macon (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)See comment below Guy Macon (talk) 19:18, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]- I'm glad to hear some good news. Although I have to say I wonder how the POV tag currently placed on the article jibes with that. Tijfo098 (talk) 17:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- As I understand Wikipedia policy, in a situation like we have here (one editor who is under 1RR for ownership thinks there is a POV problem, everyone else thinks there isn't) the POV tag stays. The consensus is to finish the restructuring, examine the result, ask the dissenting editor exactly what changes would address his concerns, look at both versions, and then seek consensus as to which way we should go. Yes, there is still a content dispute, but everybody appears to be committed to following Wikipedia policy regarding resolving that dispute. Unless I misunderstand policy, leaving the POV tag is the right thing to do in this situation. Guy Macon (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm glad to hear some good news. Although I have to say I wonder how the POV tag currently placed on the article jibes with that. Tijfo098 (talk) 17:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This article has been at FARC for over two weeks, with little discussion in this section. Could we please get some comments on whether the interested editors believe this article should be kept or delisted, or whether additional work is needed and ongoing? Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. I've caught up with the recent talk page comments (including the WP:LAME award), and I don't see substantive improvements or a consensus how to achieve that. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Does anyone else have comments? Tijfo, if you have the time, pinging all of the editors who commented above and asking them to return and enter a declaration or further comments would be a huge help. Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 17:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delist. After months of working out a plan to resolve the longstanding content dispute that resulted in an arbcom decision and major changes to the article that pretty much everyone agrees made it worse than it was when it was made an FA, I have pretty much given up (I did ask to be notified if some day they are ready to try my proposed solution.) I can no longer advocate keeping this a FA in its present state, and I no longer believe that any real progress is being made toward resolving the issues. The individual editors are doing av good job, but they are working at cross purposes because of the longstanding content dispute. Guy Macon (talk) 19:18, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Has the situation deteriorated since your optomistic April 27 report? Can the 'working at cross purposes' be resolved? 166.216.194.65 (talk) 06:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
User behavior is still fine - no edit wars, no personal attacks, etc. Following Wikipedia policy is also good - everybody is citing reliable sources, no original research, etc. What has deteriorated is the chances of resolving the basic problem of different statistics professors being fairly evenly divided between two quite different and incompatible ways of explaining the Monty hall problem, with each group insisting that their way of explaining it must be in the lead and the other way of explaining it not be in the lead. I had come up with a plan which involved getting both sides to agree on creating two versions in talkspace that differ only where the content dispute required. Then I planned on shepherding the dispute through content dispute resolution and attaining consensus among a wider group of editors (nobody wants to wade though page after page of talkpage arguments about statistics) Alas, one of the most vocal proponents of one of the two sides refuses to cooperate with my plan. There is no requirement that he cooperate, of course, but without everyone agreeing on an easy to understand document showing exactly how the two sides of this highly technical mathematical dispute will look when translated to a Wikipedia article, I just don't see how I can expect any editors who don't happen to be statistics experts can judge the two sides of the dispute properly. So we are left with a good-faith content dispute, with both sides having quite reasonable - but highly technical - arguments as to why their POV should prevail. All efforts at compromise have failed. The arbcom action was a huge success at fixing the misbehavior issues, but of course the arbcom does not rule on content disputes.
Perhaps someone else might want to take a shot at being a neutral voice that does not take sides in the content dispute. I am getting a bit burnt out and am taking a break from it. Guy Macon (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Dana boomer 12:53, 26 September 2011 [11].
Review commentary
- Notified: Microbiology, Medicine
I am nominating this featured article for review because there are clarification, dead external links, lacking reliable references, and unsourced statements tags in the article. As well, the "Research" section is unferenced and the "Notable victims" section should probably be expanded. GamerPro64 (talk) 22:52, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure why it was put up for FAR, instead of asking authors to help clean it up. Whatever. Most of these things can be fixed easily. And, in fact, we shouldn't be adding any more Notable victims. I hate those trivia lists, and in any medical article I edit, I delete them immediately. I don't agree with the desire to make medical article centers for popular knowledge. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 02:20, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, there was a request to fix the problems here but since there was no comments there, its now up for FAR. GamerPro64 (talk) 23:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- FWIW, progressing to the next step on this page is not a given. They are parked here for a couple of weeks, so if concerns are addressed promptly it might not be needed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- The main focus of concern mentioned in the review section is the featured article criteria on referencing. Dana boomer (talk) 15:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist still some concerns over linkrot and reliability of a couple sources. I also found several one-sentence paragraphs in need of copy editing, and I think the Symptoms and Society and Culture sections are woefully underdeveloped. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 20:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Can someone uninvolved with the writing of this article do a substantive review? On a quick glance at the article, I feel the brief comments above don't do justice to the article as a whole. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update? Should this article be kept or delisted, or is additional work needed and ongoing? Does anyone else wish to review the article? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd forgotten about this one..medical articles are too much like, umm, work really :/ I will just wind up looking over a GA review I started and post some ideas here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I am happy to review the whole article and try to fix the problems. However given the length of the article and the long list of references, this is likely to take me weeks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Given that articles often sit at FAR for months, I think it is reasonable to allow this time for it and get it fixed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll help too. But it is a long, difficult article, with lots of citations. My one concern about this process is editors want to delist it rather than make any effort to assist in fixing it. Since this is a medical article, and I at least understand the terminology (but probably flunked microbiology in my past), I'll help as best I can.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 05:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Update? How is work progressing here? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why were notifications of significant contributors never done? I have only now noticed this FAR, and it's months old-- that's wrong. As is the notion that "Notable victims" should be expanded-- see WP:MEDMOS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The "look" is poor. Left some thoughts on the article talk page, but the first impression just viewing the page's visuals is that they seem poorly coordinated. (No offense, honest.) Think crispening this up is important to improving the article's impact with the general public.TCO (talk) 05:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have now notified User talk:Jmh649, User talk:Petersam and User talk:TimVickers about this FAR. GamerPro64 17:35, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately, I (as the delegate responsible) never noticed that the notifications had never been completed, and so this issue was not remedied until just now. Because of this, this review is being extended, and will not be removed from this page for at least another 2 weeks (July 20, 2011). This time frame will be extended longer if necessary. Dana boomer (talk) 17:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The original nomination statement was poor to inaccurate (reference to expanding notable victims): would the persons who want this article improved please list the items that need improvement? I don't see any of the issues mentioned in the nomination statement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:26, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There are currently no dead external links, so at least that is taken care of. DigitalC (talk) 00:26, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Image problem: File:TB poster.jpg may not be in the public domain. DrKiernan (talk) 10:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Why? Have you put it in to a deletions process to clarify?TCO (reviews needed) 13:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I just looked and someone (Kiernan?) has put one of those 7 day exploding tags on it. I don't think this is appropriate given the long usage of the image accross multiple projects in a high profile article. I have put it into formal deletions instead to get eyes to look at it and determine proper action.TCO (reviews needed) 13:40, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The American Lung Association, which the museum director has suggested as the copyright holder,[12] claims copyright[13]. DrKiernan (talk) 16:06, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just FYI...that image is fine. 7 keeps so far.TCO (reviews needed) 05:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It was replaced anyway. DrKiernan (talk) 12:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just FYI...that image is fine. 7 keeps so far.TCO (reviews needed) 05:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The American Lung Association, which the museum director has suggested as the copyright holder,[12] claims copyright[13]. DrKiernan (talk) 16:06, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I just looked and someone (Kiernan?) has put one of those 7 day exploding tags on it. I don't think this is appropriate given the long usage of the image accross multiple projects in a high profile article. I have put it into formal deletions instead to get eyes to look at it and determine proper action.TCO (reviews needed) 13:40, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Why? Have you put it in to a deletions process to clarify?TCO (reviews needed) 13:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - Even with the added two weeks, with some improvement, the concerns I made have not been fully addressed. GamerPro64 13:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Gamer, which of your comments wasn't addressed? It looks like all of the tags have been taken care of. Dead links have all been fixed (the tool shows one, but it's been properly archived), and as far I as can see, the Research and Notable victims sections don't exist any more. Dana boomer (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There are still some unreferenced parts in the article, with In other animals, Study and treatment (6th and 7th paragraph), and Screening needing references. GamerPro64 14:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Like the India article I could nitpick this one too but I'm not going to. Substantial improvement has been made. Brad (talk) 07:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Inconsistent citation format I've formatted the citations consistently apart from references 139 and 140, which I wasn't clear what to do with. DrKiernan (talk) 12:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Signs & Symptoms section
The signs and symptons section does contain symptoms, but also contains much more information about extrapulmonary tuberculosis, which doesn't really relate to signs and symptoms. The paragraph on pulmonary tuberculosis could be expanded to include extrabronchial tuberculosis, and then moved to a different section? Also, it seems like both the 75% and 25% claims should be cited (possibly to the same source?) I don't have access to the fulltext of the source used for the extrapulmonary source - does it cite this statistic? DigitalC (talk) 01:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This source could be used to expand the signs and symptoms section to describe the signs and symptoms of both pulmonary and extrapulmonary tuberculosis. Respirology did a Tuberculosis series in 2010. This source also includes a paragraph on pediatric tuberculosis which the article currently barely mentions - perhaps this could be added to the article as well? The 10 articles in the review series can be accessed here. DigitalC (talk) 01:42, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Based on the above source, I have created a very rough draft in my sandbox if anyone is interested in working on this section of the article. DigitalC (talk) 02:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To be honest, I'm confused. There's no source for the 75% of cases being pulmonary, and this source says 85% of cases are pulmonary. Also, the article says the extrapulmonary infection moves from the lungs, but then it says later on that pulmonary and extrapulmonary TB "may co-exist", which implies that extrapulmonary TB does not necessarily arise from an active lung infection since it can also arise without active disease in the lungs. I think this needs to be re-phrased to make the distinction between latent and active infection clear. DrKiernan (talk) 19:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Based on the above source, I have created a very rough draft in my sandbox if anyone is interested in working on this section of the article. DigitalC (talk) 02:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I find this article confusing at present, partly because the distinction between latent infection and active disease and primary disease is not always clear, but mostly because of the structure. I think it would be helpful to move that part in pathogenesis about the switch from latent to active infection earlier, say between "Causes" and "Risk factors" so that we understand how the switch occurs and why the risk factors cause the switch. So, merge the two sections "Causes" and "Pathogenesis" and have four sub-sections on the causative agent, its transmission, its pathogenesis, and its risk factors. In addition, there is some unnecessary repetition of material that leads to further confusion and contradiction; for example, in the "Causes" section it says that diabetes increases the risk two- to four-fold, and then two paragraphs down it says it increases it three-fold. I think some material needs to be trimmed out; for example, silicosis is probably not responsible for the vast number of TB cases, and so it should not be the major focus of the risk factors section. In the "Diagnosis" section we're told about the QuantiFERON and T-SPOT tests twice. The last sentence in the "Treatment" section looks as if it could be cut. Material in "Epidemiology" seems to replicate material in "Risk factors". The definition of phthisis is given twice. The "Age" sub-section should be merged into the second paragraph of "History". The claim that it led to beauty and creativity is duplicated in the "Folklore" and "Society and culture" sections. Some updating is needed; in the "Vaccines" section we're told that a DNA vaccine from 2005 could be available for humans in "four to five years"—so, is it available? Another vaccine is "currently" in phase II trials, but the reference is from 2006. In the "Epidemiology" section, in 2007 there are 13 million cases, 9 million new cases, and 2 million deaths, so the next year there are 13+9-2=20 million cases? And the year after that 20+9-2=27 million cases? This doesn't seem to add up, and besides the graph next to this paragraph shows over 50 million reported cases. Another contradictory claim is "Mycobacterium tuberculosis is in the remains of bison" when earlier we are told "humans are the only host of Mycobacterium tuberculosis", presumably this is confusion between the complex and the species. DrKiernan (talk) 19:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist It's been a week since my review, and there's been no reply or action. While I could probably fix the prose issues I outlined, I wouldn't be comfortable attempting to amend the contradictory, outdated and unverified material I mentioned. DrKiernan (talk) 18:50, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update? - is work still happening here? Have the delist !voters' comments been addressed, and if so have they been asked to revisit? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no movement on my comments. DrKiernan (talk) 07:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I still think the article needs a copy edit. There are still a lot of one- and two-sentence paragraphs, and multiple consecutive sentences starting with "the" or "in". Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 18:20, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Nikkimaria 14:15, 28 July 2011 [14].
Review commentary
- Notified: Nichalp, Saravask, Ragib, Dab, Abecedare, RegentsPark, SpacemanSpiff, WikiProject India, WikiProject History
I am nominating this featured article for review because it hasn't been reviewed thoroughly since 2006. The page's history (2) and culture (7) sections are not only poorly written, but also beset with unlikely or undue claims. The other sections are in better shape, in part, because I have just copy edited them. The history section had grown to twice its usual size towards the end of last year, a result of editors ignoring the injunction to be brief and, in the throes of WP:Main article fixation besides, contributing directly and ceaselessly to it. I have rolled it back to an earlier version, but that is not satisfactory either. I invite the Wikipedia community to help improve the page, especially these two sections. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS I should add, though, that just because I have copy edited the other sections, doesn't mean that they don't have significant issues, especially ones of sourcing, balance and meaning. In my view, very few sections meet current FA standards. With many editors, both registered and IPs, champing at the bit to leave their footprints on this highly-trafficked page, maintenance, it seems, would be major task once the page has been improved. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:12, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Updated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:50, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I totally support User:Fowler&fowler for this article to be nominated for featured article for review.User:yohannvt
- Why? Could you point out the ways in which you feel this article does not meet the FA criteria? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a total mess from the beginnings to history section. Lots of inaccuracies, weight issues all over the place.. for instance the history section is nearly totally based on foreign intruders as India itself would have none. Think of America and they only would write about Columbus and the colonialists and how they were destroyed or conquered. A total injustice to Americas history. In India we had several impacts, but none of them changed the foundation of our world. We are still the Indians despite all these "great invasions". People should read more about our history, when they come to this page. And since India is a pluralistic country, where all regions take pride in their leaders, not only the Hindi speaking belt, they should be mentioned accordingly here with some details of their achievements for India as a whole. I would like to see details of the Mauryas and Guptas of the North, the Shatavahanas, Marathas and Rashtrakutas from the Deccan, the Cholas and Vijayanagara from the South and the Palas and Kalingas from the East. There are many more great Indian history makers, but these are essential in our history besides the independence movement. The lead section should be a good introduction to this article, but it is merely describing some points about India, which I find unsatisfactory. It should have been more an epical style as India is epic in all forms. There should be a brief summary of the setup of the union, and a comparison to other supernational entities like EU and Soviet Union. Give a hint why India became to be known to the western world since ancient times and how India remained an ancient civilization to this day. I don't consider this article to be even remotely excellent. Please review this with the right spirit of India and Indians.--David Fraudly (talk) 23:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm, don't know what to do with this FAR. A number of editors are wasting time, theirs and everyone else's, on the Talk:India page arguing endlessly about the sweet intangibles that Wikipedians like to argue about. I can't get them to spend any time on the FAR. As for David Fraudly (talk · contribs)'s post, Welcome aboard, this being your second edit on Wikipedia. Could you suggest something concrete to change and how? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Imperial revisionism is the new black, although its zealots would not care for the cliche. any Indian editor who has had the courage to say anything positive or good about India is immediately accused as one of a Hindu or Indian nationalist. While i will be the first to admit that the wp attracts a lot of such editors, their unreferenced rants and ravings stand no chance and are often drowned out by another groups of editors, the likes of Andrew Roberts, Niall Ferguson and Lawrence James and retro-historians mentioned in the article. anyone who has had a chance to read this book by Lawrence James Raj: The Making and Unmaking of British India will see what Yasmin Alibhai-Brown means.
- my rants aside, i was the one who tagged the article for neutrality issues. the reason being, that the history part of the lead does not adequately summarise Indian history and gives WP:Undue significance to british period by linking to two aspects of british rule in india (the company and the raj) while omitting a significant amount of Indian history as can be seen in this article History of India. --CarTick (talk) 14:30, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- (First bullet): Something actionable please. None of the "retro-historians" are cited on the India page.
- (Second bullet). The History of India page, which is about the History of the Indian subcontinent (ie. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) until 1947, does have a significant Colonial era section. Please also see the template on the right there; Modern India there is Company Rule and the British Indian Empire (or the Raj). Besides, the final version of the lead that we (I, AshLin, RegentsPark, Munci, and Chipmunkdavis) offered you hardly gave undue significance to the British period, given that the History of India's own lead gives a great deal more significance to the British period. I am happy to switch the current history paragraph in the lead for the one we last offered you in the link above. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Zuggernaut, Yogesh Khandke, Pdheeru supported my version that does not include the link to company rule. RegentsPark expressed support first only to withdraw later. I wasnt aware Munci supported your version, would like to see it.
- no mention of Vijayanagara rulers who ruled Southern India for centuries or Cholas, able administrators who built the Brihadeeswarar Temple and went on military expeditions outside the subcontinent or Ashoka, the man who ruled the entire Indian subcontinent whose Ashoka Chakra was adopted as the national emblem of India thus carrying enormous cultural significance. i am not saying we should mention all these guys. now, is there any reason why you would want to split the british rule into company and raj other than to provide links to both your pet articles from the lead of one of the highly visible wp articles (almost 30,000 views every day). why cant we let the readers go to the British Raj article and find their way around from there? isnt it like linking Ashoka in addition to Maurya Empire? why the redundancy? --CarTick (talk) 02:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In recent decades, human encroachment has posed a threat to India's wildlife; in response, the system of national parks and protected areas, first established in 1935, was substantially expanded in Biodiversity is unreferenced. guess the 1935 refers to Jim Corbett National Park and it would be nice if we can find a reference that supports the exact sentence. --CarTick (talk) 02:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- (First bullet) Zuggernaut is now topic banned from India-history related topics. His vote, on the history paragraph in the lead, therefore, doesn't count. Munci expressed support for my version in this edit of 12 March 2011. Your version has three support votes including yours; mine has five, including mine. That is enough to show that there is no consensus of the changing the sentence about the British rule and Indian independence movement.
- (Second bullet) It appears that you are now chanding your own objections to the lead. In the alternative lead proposed by you on 10 March 2011 none of these were mentioned. In fact, the only difference between by lead (mentioned and linked above) and yours was in the last sentence, where you had an abbreviated mention of the British. Again, the history section of the India page is essentially the lead of the History of India page, and the history paragraph of the lead of the India page, is a bare bones précis of its History Section (approximately one sentence for each paragraph). The lead of the History of India page has one paragraph devoted to the British years in which both the Company rule and British raj are mentioned. It is therefore entirely apt that we devote half a sentence: "Gradually annexed by the East India Company from the mid 18th century and colonized by the United Kingdom from the mid-19th century, India ..."
- Thanks for discovering the missing cite. I will fix it shortly. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:05, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS to (Second bullet). In rereading the old history section, I feel you have a point. Not necessarily that the history section is slanted towards the British, but that it is slanted geographically in favor of North India. (In part this reflects the old historiography.) I will attempt a rewrite of the history section to correct this, and you can let me know what you think. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In first line, it says India is a state in South Asia, it needs to be changed to country rather than state! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.35.169 (talk • contribs) 12:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This has been done. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern mentioned in the review section include prose, undue weight, lack of summary style and general non-compliance with the MOS. Dana boomer (talk) 15:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
DelistSadly there are still dead links and ongoing neutrality disputes. I didn't bother to look more closely. Brad (talk) 12:58, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]- Keep. I could nitpick on this article but I'm not going to. It has seen substantial improvement from F&F. Brad (talk) 08:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To be more specific as requested the article does not meet:
1c based on dead links making verification impossible.- All external links are working as of now. There are many links that are missing retrieved on dates. Please fix those. Brad (talk) 03:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1d based on the neutrality tags present.
- If these issues are fixed then I'll be glad to rescind my delist. Brad (talk) 21:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Dead links fixed. --rgpk (comment) 17:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- F&F asked me to revisit the article. Substantial improvement has been completed but 2c is now a serious problem. A mixture of date formatting and missing information throughout references. I found one marked dead link that isn't dead; worked fine for me. Brad (talk) 03:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Brad, Could you please explain a little more. I'm not sure I understand your concern. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me make it clear, by 2c Brad refers to the inconsistency in citations, for instance article has all possible date formats like big endian (2007-06-21), middle endian (April 23, 2011) and little endian (31 October 2007); for this article I would prefer little endian (Commonwealth format). Also many of the references lack complete information like work, publisher, format, typefaces, etc. — Bill william comptonTalk 06:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, thanks, Bill. I will redo all the references in the Citation template format with little endian dates. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Brad and Bill, I have now redone the cites in the citation+endian format as well as Harvnb for books that were cited many times. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Great work there!
just check Ref118, which is a dead link.— Bill william comptonTalk 02:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Great work there!
- Done Brad and Bill, I have now redone the cites in the citation+endian format as well as Harvnb for books that were cited many times. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, thanks, Bill. I will redo all the references in the Citation template format with little endian dates. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me make it clear, by 2c Brad refers to the inconsistency in citations, for instance article has all possible date formats like big endian (2007-06-21), middle endian (April 23, 2011) and little endian (31 October 2007); for this article I would prefer little endian (Commonwealth format). Also many of the references lack complete information like work, publisher, format, typefaces, etc. — Bill william comptonTalk 06:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Brad, Could you please explain a little more. I'm not sure I understand your concern. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per WP:FAIL#Wikipedia became battleground playpen. Honestly, I don't see myself the POV issues with this article, but I concede that unlike science-type controversial topics, in nationalistic ones WP:2LAW can be eternally invoked to tag the article with {{POV}}—and this is what has been going on on this article's talk page for quite some time now, and on multiple issues. Tijfo098 (talk) 04:51, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Would those asking for a delist perhaps give specific examples of what exactly is UNDUE and what DUE information is perhaps missed etc. So far the only real substance here was given by David Fraudly, and I'm not very convinced of their opinion. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:19, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We must be looking at different articles. Editors on the talk page can't even agree how the country is called (in English) and what the first line of the article should say. Tijfo098 (talk) 08:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And that's not currently an issue with the article. All articles about ethnicities countries or regions are going to suffer this at some point or another. India with its multitudes of english speakers will have a lot of interested editors. Where in the current article is there an UNDUE problem, if not for this FAR then for improvement later? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but I see quite unreasonable positions there from a lot of the participants, and not just the presumed (Indian/Hindu) nationalists. That's why I linked to FAIL above. The discussion is dominated by people with extreme ideas on both sides and that's the just the way this wiki works. Unless you can somehow produce a topic ban for half a dozen people, I don't see how the POV dispute will end anytime soon. And I checked talk archives 31 and 32 as well, which are fairly recent. Different topics, same problem. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And that's not currently an issue with the article. All articles about ethnicities countries or regions are going to suffer this at some point or another. India with its multitudes of english speakers will have a lot of interested editors. Where in the current article is there an UNDUE problem, if not for this FAR then for improvement later? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We must be looking at different articles. Editors on the talk page can't even agree how the country is called (in English) and what the first line of the article should say. Tijfo098 (talk) 08:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I too would like to see specific comments from those asking to delist the article. I'm no expert on the FAR process, but I can't see how the process can work without specific directions on what needs improvement (preferably from editors with confidence inspiring monikers). Also, re Tijfo098, I fail to see how talk page battles translate into quality judgements on the article itself.--rgpk (comment) 10:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it's even worth commenting on the (current version of the) content... The lead has two links that violate the principle of least surprise: "annexed" links to Company rule in India and "colonized" links to "British Raj". Also, the lead appears heavily overlinked with 50%+ of the text being links. I'm trying to find a good article to compare it with, but the recently FAR-kept Japan is certainly failing WP:LEAD (WWII or the Meiji period isn't notable next to Paleolithic or the first Chinese writings), so I'll try to find some other basis for comparison. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You're going to have to explain the principle of least surprise thing further. Annexed links to Company rule in India because the process of annexation was carried out by the British East India Company. Colonized links to British Raj because it became a direct colony of Britain only after the end of company rule. Were you expecting something different? (Also, while the principle you quote applies quite nicely to the design of user interfaces, I'm not sure how useful it is for encyclopedias or for scholarly work in general. Surprises are not always a bad thing.) I'll take a look at the linking issue, thanks for that. --rgpk (comment) 16:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems a fairly simple matter to reduce the number of links in the lead but is that an FA criterion? Links tend to be useful connects to detailed articles (this is a summary-style article) and don't detract from the readability of the lead. But, if that's an FA criterion, please let me know. I removed the trivial memberships from the lead. --rgpk (comment) 17:59, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I took a look at WP:LEAD and the links appear to satisfy the requirements set out there: Use as few links as possible before and in the bolded title. Thereafter, words used in a title may be linked to, particularly if they are links to a more general article, as this puts the article into context. --rgpk (comment) 18:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems a fairly simple matter to reduce the number of links in the lead but is that an FA criterion? Links tend to be useful connects to detailed articles (this is a summary-style article) and don't detract from the readability of the lead. But, if that's an FA criterion, please let me know. I removed the trivial memberships from the lead. --rgpk (comment) 17:59, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You're going to have to explain the principle of least surprise thing further. Annexed links to Company rule in India because the process of annexation was carried out by the British East India Company. Colonized links to British Raj because it became a direct colony of Britain only after the end of company rule. Were you expecting something different? (Also, while the principle you quote applies quite nicely to the design of user interfaces, I'm not sure how useful it is for encyclopedias or for scholarly work in general. Surprises are not always a bad thing.) I'll take a look at the linking issue, thanks for that. --rgpk (comment) 16:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps the lead could spare the reader trivialities such as India being member of the UN. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:53, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done trivial memberships removed. --rgpk (comment) 17:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I fail to see how India's membership of the Non-Aligned Movement and the Commonwealth among others is trivial. Its membership of the UN certainly is, because these days it's something exceptional for a country not to be part of the UN. And the same goes for WTO. Munci (talk) 14:31, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- These are debatable issues. I'm not sure if the non-aligned movement matters anymore (not aligned with what?) and the commonwealth is a club with no political weight.--rgpk (comment) 14:52, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I fail to see how India's membership of the Non-Aligned Movement and the Commonwealth among others is trivial. Its membership of the UN certainly is, because these days it's something exceptional for a country not to be part of the UN. And the same goes for WTO. Munci (talk) 14:31, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done trivial memberships removed. --rgpk (comment) 17:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator (Fowler&fowler)'s comment: Hmm. Now it is my turn to be surprised! As the nominator of this FAR, a process that we are told lasts some three or four months, and as an editor who has taken part in other FARs, I am a little surprised that we have reached FARC already. Usually, there is much discussion in the review, where the nominator and others are given ample opportunity to improve the article. This time, however, I didn't hear a peep, either from the editors of the India page, who it seems prefer to hold forth on the Talk:India page, or from the FAR regulars. From the first group this was especially surprising, since only a month ago they were coming at me with a vehemence unheard of in the annals of Wikihistory. It may be that this page will eventually need to be delisted, given all the POV issues that are coming up on the talk page—where a newbie editor such as Thisthat2011 (talk · contribs), who may or may not be a sockpuppet, but who cannot write intelligible English, is endlessly holding up any progress, and normally productive Wikipedians are spending all their time kowtowing to inarticulate amateurism—but I feel the regular editors of the page should be given half a chance to improve it. Tijfo098, some of your comments (e.g. about the lead) should have been made in the review process, not in the FARC. I think we should revert back to the review process and then begin anew. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS Putting my money were my mouth is, I've created a talk page and added critique of the first paragraph (or two) of the culture section there. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PPS Maybe more "delists" will finally get this page the attention it deserves!! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Fowler for taking the trouble to list specific deficiencies. At least we'll have something to work with. This FA process, where anyone can make general statements about articles and these then become "identified deficiencies", seems odd to me. At least you're providing some structure. --rgpk (comment) 18:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not sure why there is surprise that this is at FARC. The article was in the FAR section for almost three weeks, and there seemed to be little discussion and fewer improvements to the article. Because of this - the identified deficiencies and the lack of progress - it was moved to the FARC section. If there is ongoing article improvement, then the article can remain at this stage for as long as necessary, although it is preferred that work is completed in a timely fashion. However, if there is little or no improvement to the article and multiple editors agree that the article does not meet the FA standards, then it will be delisted. I appreciate the extensive (although partial) review you've posted on the talk page of this FAR, although if additional time goes by with no improvement to the article and editors continue to view the article as deficient, the article will have to be delisted, regardless of the extensive discussion either here or on the talk page. I hope this explanation helps; please let me know if you have further questions. Dana boomer (talk) 14:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the explanation. Not all of us are familiar with the FAR process and I assumed that its purpose was primarily to help editors improve the article by pointing to specific areas where it is deficient wrt featured article criteria. However, it appears that the process is focused more on 'demotion' (if that's the word) and that editors are themselves responsible for figuring all this out. Since I have little idea of what the criteria are, and not much time at hand to identify specific shortcomings vis-a-vis these criteria (though I would be happy to address meaningful suggestions both inside and outside the FAR process), I suggest the article be delisted. Personally, I would ask for more specific reasons for delisting, "ongoing neutrality disputes" is way too general, and would ignore commentary from new editors with hard to assume good faith names, but I'm sure that the regular FAR editors know best. --rgpk (comment) 15:59, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, (Dana Boomer) what I meant was that the people who have now voted in the FARC didn't offer any critiques! I can't do both (offer critiques and improve the article). Actually, on second thoughts, I can. I can very quickly fix the article, but the POV-warriors on the Talk:India page will turn out by the droves and make sure that I backtrack two sentences for every one that I write. As someone who has sort of overseen the article for upwards of four years and written a few sections (the good ones, I believe) such as Geography and Biodiversity), I would be sad to see the article delisted. However, I am also sick and tired of being accused of being an apologist for the British etc etc, all by people who won't lift a finger to improve the page, so, a part of me would be relieved as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- F&F, thanks for the clarification. When you said you were surprised that it had moved to FARC so quickly, I thought you were requesting a response from one of the delegates! RegentsPark, it is wonderful when an article is improved through the FAR process, but editors must come forward who are interested in improving the article. The criteria can be found at this page. I don't know what you mean by editors with "hard to assume good faith names", but I would suggest that if you want to bring the article back into line wit the FA criteria, you carefully read the comments of all editors and act on any good suggestions, regardless of the user's name. Dana boomer (talk) 22:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem is that most editors (f&f excepting) haven't really given any actionable suggestions or identified specific deficiencies. I suggest that these editors take a look at Wikipedia:FAR#Katyn_massacre as an example of how to give suggestions in a FAR. I also suggest that these editors, and I assume they are familiar with FA criteria, be specific, with examples, about which particular criterion they believe the article is failing. My 'hard to assume good faith names' comment referred to User:David Fraudly (as in fraud: a person or thing intended to deceive others), the only person to comment before this was moved to FARC. --rgpk (comment) 12:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Brad mentioned the dead links, of which there are still 11, which is an actionable complaint. The neutrality comments are also valid, in that there are neutrality cleanup banners on the top of the page and in one of the sections, which is completely unacceptable for a featured article. If there is dispute on the talk page - fine. However, when it begins to affect the article, in terms of major cleanup banners on featured articles, then it affects the FA criteria and becomes actionable. As for Mr. Fraudly, I am going to AGF and say there's a good possibility that it is his true name or pen name, rather than an attempt to point out that he is a fraudster. Dana boomer (talk) 13:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Much better. These are actionable comments. Thank you. I was a little disappointed at the lack of structure in this process but f&f has begun to provide that structure. (Don't worry. I too AGF on Mr. Fraudly. My only point was that an "identified deficiencies" statement on a single 3-edits editor, with an unlikely name, and a tendency toward statements like It should have been more an epical style as India is epic in all forms, is not a good idea. I have no idea how to remedy a deficiency of the un-epical sort!) --rgpk (comment) 14:29, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Brad mentioned the dead links, of which there are still 11, which is an actionable complaint. The neutrality comments are also valid, in that there are neutrality cleanup banners on the top of the page and in one of the sections, which is completely unacceptable for a featured article. If there is dispute on the talk page - fine. However, when it begins to affect the article, in terms of major cleanup banners on featured articles, then it affects the FA criteria and becomes actionable. As for Mr. Fraudly, I am going to AGF and say there's a good possibility that it is his true name or pen name, rather than an attempt to point out that he is a fraudster. Dana boomer (talk) 13:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem is that most editors (f&f excepting) haven't really given any actionable suggestions or identified specific deficiencies. I suggest that these editors take a look at Wikipedia:FAR#Katyn_massacre as an example of how to give suggestions in a FAR. I also suggest that these editors, and I assume they are familiar with FA criteria, be specific, with examples, about which particular criterion they believe the article is failing. My 'hard to assume good faith names' comment referred to User:David Fraudly (as in fraud: a person or thing intended to deceive others), the only person to comment before this was moved to FARC. --rgpk (comment) 12:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- F&F, thanks for the clarification. When you said you were surprised that it had moved to FARC so quickly, I thought you were requesting a response from one of the delegates! RegentsPark, it is wonderful when an article is improved through the FAR process, but editors must come forward who are interested in improving the article. The criteria can be found at this page. I don't know what you mean by editors with "hard to assume good faith names", but I would suggest that if you want to bring the article back into line wit the FA criteria, you carefully read the comments of all editors and act on any good suggestions, regardless of the user's name. Dana boomer (talk) 22:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, (Dana Boomer) what I meant was that the people who have now voted in the FARC didn't offer any critiques! I can't do both (offer critiques and improve the article). Actually, on second thoughts, I can. I can very quickly fix the article, but the POV-warriors on the Talk:India page will turn out by the droves and make sure that I backtrack two sentences for every one that I write. As someone who has sort of overseen the article for upwards of four years and written a few sections (the good ones, I believe) such as Geography and Biodiversity), I would be sad to see the article delisted. However, I am also sick and tired of being accused of being an apologist for the British etc etc, all by people who won't lift a finger to improve the page, so, a part of me would be relieved as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the explanation. Not all of us are familiar with the FAR process and I assumed that its purpose was primarily to help editors improve the article by pointing to specific areas where it is deficient wrt featured article criteria. However, it appears that the process is focused more on 'demotion' (if that's the word) and that editors are themselves responsible for figuring all this out. Since I have little idea of what the criteria are, and not much time at hand to identify specific shortcomings vis-a-vis these criteria (though I would be happy to address meaningful suggestions both inside and outside the FAR process), I suggest the article be delisted. Personally, I would ask for more specific reasons for delisting, "ongoing neutrality disputes" is way too general, and would ignore commentary from new editors with hard to assume good faith names, but I'm sure that the regular FAR editors know best. --rgpk (comment) 15:59, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PPS Maybe more "delists" will finally get this page the attention it deserves!! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dana, I'm sorry if I sounded so negative, but after my experience with MHP, where I wrote a very detailed review but 90% of which (so far) has been ignored by the article regulars who continue to squabble over their pet peeves, I felt like investing a similar effort in reviewing another article where most likely there won't be consensus on the key issues on the talk page to be a waste of my time. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some aspects of the history of India are sufficiently controversial that this recent lawsuit happened, so I'm not optimistic at all that the Wikipedia editors involved can come to an agreement. It's almost like trying to keep Israel FA—that didn't seem to have worked. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:45, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A few brief comments:
- The infobox about the Bahá'í House of Worship being so important is sourced from a possibly less than neutral Bahá'í book.
- Couldn't find the infobox. Has it been removed or did I miss it?--rgpk (comment) 20:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is repetition of "in the world" in the brief paragraph on Bollywood.
- Done --rgpk (comment) 20:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a broken reference "Error: no |title= specified when using {{".
- Done Seems to have been fixed along the way. --rgpk (comment) 20:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There are also some bare URLs in the reference list. Other web citations have only the page title and retrieval date, but no author or publisher.
- Some harv refs are broken (don't link to anything), e.g. the two Achaya ones, possibly more.
- The article uses an extremely questionable convention of not giving the page number for some harv footnotes, but giving a "p." for the full ref linked to. Is that "p." the number of pages of the book, or the actual page referenced? Also, this convention is not uniformly used.
-- More later. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:51, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I can answer the last point. The actual syntax (which is standard in journal reviews of books, for example) is Pp. xvi, 347. That means there are 16 preface (front matter) pages and a total of 347 actual pages (including the index). Unfortunately, someone, who thought the Pp. referred to a page number being cited changed Pp. to p. So, now it is really confusing. I'm happy to remove the total page number information altogether. The page number being cited, however, should appear in the first half of the references section in the form {{Harvnb|Smith|2002|p=32}} or {{Harvnb|Gandhi|1932|pp=23–24}} (wikified, of course). (See, for examples, cites 47 through 55.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS I'm happy to fix the inconsistencies as well. Will let you know here when done. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PPS Yeah, the refs are a mess. I will fix them, but it will take me a little longer than I had thought! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done I've removed the total page information as well as commercial urls from all books in the references section. I'm rewriting the history section. It is more than half done. All new notes have harvnb-style author, year, and page information. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the consensus is that GB page links are useful when they help very the material. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, thanks for the feedback. I'm happy to add the Google URLs. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Have added the URLs to all those history books that have Google previews available. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Tijfo098: You are correct about the language in the lead: it is imprecise. I have now changed the sentence fragment, "Gradually annexed by the British East India Company from the early 18th century and colonised by the United Kingdom from the mid-19th century ..." to "Gradually controlled by the British East India Company from the early 18th century and directly administered by the United Kingdom from the mid-19th century, ..." There is less surprise, and also it is more accurate, since the East India Company did not annex all of India (it annexed some regions and formed subsidiary alliances in other regions) and in 1858 the United Kingdom began to directly administer India. "Colonised" is incorrect, because the East India Company had colonised parts of India too, especially after 1820, which most historians consider the beginning of India's colonial period. I hope this is satisfactory. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:23, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Have added the URLs to all those history books that have Google previews available. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, thanks for the feedback. I'm happy to add the Google URLs. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the consensus is that GB page links are useful when they help very the material. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done I've removed the total page information as well as commercial urls from all books in the references section. I'm rewriting the history section. It is more than half done. All new notes have harvnb-style author, year, and page information. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist The article is not comprehensive enough and does not present the issue in an adequate way. Sections such as Religion, Transport/Infrastructure, Education, Science and Technology are missing. The History section is too long and needs a split. Italiano111 (talk) 21:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Can any person walk off the street without taking part in the review discussion and without providing anything meaningfully actionable and pronounce, "Delist" or "Keep?" Do the FAR delegates disregard these perfunctory votes? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:10, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Anyone may make a declaration; however, delist !votes that provide no actionable commentary or do not reference the FA criteria will commonly be disregarded. That being said, while I haven't checked to see whether Italiano's comment is a valid criticism of this article (and I don't intend to comment on it at this point), "comprehensiveness" is part of the FA criteria, so responding to him (as you have done) is appropriate. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:06, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Can any person walk off the street without taking part in the review discussion and without providing anything meaningfully actionable and pronounce, "Delist" or "Keep?" Do the FAR delegates disregard these perfunctory votes? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:10, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Nikkimaria. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Response to Italiano111: What issue? Yes, the history section is long because it is in the process of being rewritten and will be reduced again. Seriously, how difficult is it to split a section? What would make the page comprehensive? And which country FA is comprehensive by this benchmark? The article has all the sections suggested on the WP:Countries page. Australia doesn't have Science and Technology or Infrastructure. Germany's history section is way too long and its geography and biodiversity sections way too short. Canada doesn't have a biodiversity section. Should we be demoting all country FAs while we are at it? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Have split History into three subsections (for now). Will update at the end of the rewrite. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I´m flexible enough to change the current delist recommendation once the article has gained a comprehensive outlook. Being comprehensive is the second most important criteria (1. b)) Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Italiano111 (talk) 13:51, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The current history section dedicates half of its prose to ancient history, and about an eighth to events since the founding of the republic. Thoughts on this? I think the ancient history probably needs to be massively cut down, and an expansion on modern india. I think that as a start the sentence "India has faced challenges from religious violence, casteism, naxalism, terrorism" should be expanded with a short explanation of each of these points, rather than a list. Some, such as terrorism, already have information in that paragraph. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Chipmunk, I'm rewriting the history section and have got only as far as 700 CE. That was done in response to various posts in the FAR, in particular those of CarTick and Italiano111. See, for example, the last post in the review section above. Since I'm also travelling and have had to reread some hefty tomes, it is taking a little longer, but I should be done in about a week's time. Please hold on. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment About two weeks have passed but the history section still has some unsourced material. When will the construction end? TGilmour (talk) 11:52, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Can we get an update on this? There are still multiple outstanding delists... If the editors working on the article feel that the comments of the various reviewing editors have been addressed, please feel free to ask them to return and update their comments. Dana boomer (talk) 14:57, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Dana, I will be returning home on Tuesday July 5. Will address the unaddressed issues soon thereafter. Thanks for being patient with this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:13, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- F&F, can we get an update on this, please? Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 01:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi there! Yes, I am back and have been working on expanding the history section (the last remaining section that needs work). I am almost finished with it; I need to add two paragraphs for the British period. A couple of days more. Thanks! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The expansion of the history section in response to FAR comments is now complete. It is sourced with a dozen of the most modern textbooks being used around the world, all peer-reviewed for balance and WP:DUE. I feel that the India article, which became an FA in 2004, is now up to date, and in line with current FA standards. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:45, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS Thanks, everyone, for your patience. Superhuman patience. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:47, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for all of your work on this! Perhaps you'd have a few minutes to ping the editors who commented above and ask them to revisit their comments, now that you have had a chance to address them? Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 01:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I've already pinged everyone who has weighed in here, except User:David Fraudly, who turned out to be a sockpuppet of a banned editor. I am now working on redoing all the references in the Citation template format and little endian dates, in response to Brad01 and Bill william compton's concerns. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done I've finished the Citation work and I note that Brad has changed his "delist" to "keep." What about the others? Any comments? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No idea whether it's matter or not, but as I mentioned above, Ref118 is still a dead link. F&f, would you please correct it?— Bill william comptonTalk 21:32, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]- Done Have fixed 118, which very mysteriously has become 119 now! Anyway, I have checked (and improved) all the links from 117 to 120! Thanks for pointing out the error. Having the link is very important. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:20, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- When I pointed it out first (above, which I changed later to match with the article) it was 119, but yesterday evening it became 118, and I know the reason, it's due to the tiger image of Template:Indian image rotation, which has citations in its caption. As far as I can see, all the references have been checked, with proper citations and format, so I would elatedly Vote! for Keep, and for this all credit goes to indefatigable F&f. — Bill william comptonTalk 04:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you BWC. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- When I pointed it out first (above, which I changed later to match with the article) it was 119, but yesterday evening it became 118, and I know the reason, it's due to the tiger image of Template:Indian image rotation, which has citations in its caption. As far as I can see, all the references have been checked, with proper citations and format, so I would elatedly Vote! for Keep, and for this all credit goes to indefatigable F&f. — Bill william comptonTalk 04:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Have fixed 118, which very mysteriously has become 119 now! Anyway, I have checked (and improved) all the links from 117 to 120! Thanks for pointing out the error. Having the link is very important. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:20, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done I've finished the Citation work and I note that Brad has changed his "delist" to "keep." What about the others? Any comments? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I've already pinged everyone who has weighed in here, except User:David Fraudly, who turned out to be a sockpuppet of a banned editor. I am now working on redoing all the references in the Citation template format and little endian dates, in response to Brad01 and Bill william compton's concerns. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for all of your work on this! Perhaps you'd have a few minutes to ping the editors who commented above and ask them to revisit their comments, now that you have had a chance to address them? Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 01:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS Thanks, everyone, for your patience. Superhuman patience. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:47, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The expansion of the history section in response to FAR comments is now complete. It is sourced with a dozen of the most modern textbooks being used around the world, all peer-reviewed for balance and WP:DUE. I feel that the India article, which became an FA in 2004, is now up to date, and in line with current FA standards. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:45, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi there! Yes, I am back and have been working on expanding the history section (the last remaining section that needs work). I am almost finished with it; I need to add two paragraphs for the British period. A couple of days more. Thanks! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- F&F, can we get an update on this, please? Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 01:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Of the other people who have weighed in here, David Fraudly (as mentioned above) has been indeffed, as has TGilmour; Tijo098 hasn't edited since 22 May, CarTick is on Wikileave; Munci has been editing intermittently, but I'll leave another post on his talk page; and Italiano111 hasn't edited since 28 June. The only others are Chipmunkdavis and RegentsPark. I'll ping them again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: It appears that the issues have been largely addressed (thank you fowler&fowler). BTW, fowler, I corrected Bill Fraudly to David Fraudly in your post immediately above this one, hope that is ok. --rgpk (comment) 11:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, RegentsPark, both for weighing in and for correcting BF->DF. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Fowler&Fowler has done a remarkable job with copyediting and sourcing etc. My only qualm is that during this process the article has become much larger, a total of over 150,000 bytes. The prose tool isn't working for me for some reason on this article, but I'm willing to bet it's quite large in itself. I defer however, to F&F's judgement about what is WP:DUE in the article. It doesn't fail any requirements. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It is true, Chipmunk, that the article is bigger. The history section has been expanded in response to comments by two weighers-in. The old history section was a haiku-like list of subpage links, which not only made for poor prose, but was also being perennially raided by people who were miffed that their hero was missing. The new history section is a high level description (that for the most part eschews naming names) which is based on a dozen of the most modern textbooks that are currently in use around the world, books that have been peer-reviewed and vetted for DUE. Most statements in the history section have been sourced to multiple sources, and when they haven't, it is only because I didn't have time then, but will gradually add the others. In other words, they represent consensus or near-consensus among historians. That's pretty much all we can reasonably do. Thanks for weighing in. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- F&F and friends have done pure work restoring this to FA class. Thank you. Commenting out of ... irritation ... with some of the "comprehensiveness" casuistry above. Suggestions like "ancient history probably needs to be massively cut down" almost strike me as vile. But whatever. At this point, it's neither here nor there. Saravask 11:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Saravask. Glad to see you back. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Raul654 05:20, 14 April 2011 [15].
- Notified: John Smith's, WoodElf, TakuyaMurata, HongQiGong, WP Japan, WP East Asia, WP Countries
I am nominating this featured article for review because this article needs quite a bit of work to remain at featured status. Here are some of the first things I saw on a sweep of the article:
- Extreme sandwiching of text between images and between images and infoboxes. A major cull of images is needed, as is a review of all image licensing.
- Galleries are discouraged in featured articles, and I don’t think that the one in the culture and recreation section really adds enough to the reader’s understanding to really be needed.
- Short paragraph scattered throughout the article break flow. Try combining or expanding these.
- Quite a few little places that need references. For example, the two paragraphs about territorial disputes in the Foreign relations and military section. This is just an example, there are other places.
- Several fact tags that need to be taken care of.
- All uses of "%" should be spelled out – i.e., use "percent" instead.
- As far as I can see, "%" only appears in the infobox which is fine according to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Percentages. bamse (talk) 10:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I noticed that despite the descriptions in WP:MOSNUM#Percentages, major articles about countries use "%" instead of "percent". See United States, France, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Canada or more. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 03:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the articles above aren't even at B-class, and GA-class doesn't require compliance with the entire MOS. So, they're not really the greatest ones to compare to... Besides, FA articles must comply with MOS (per the criteria) so the FA articles mentioned above should be changed, unless you can get consensus to have the MOS changed. Dana boomer (talk) 19:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I noticed that despite the descriptions in WP:MOSNUM#Percentages, major articles about countries use "%" instead of "percent". See United States, France, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Canada or more. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 03:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As far as I can see, "%" only appears in the infobox which is fine according to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Percentages. bamse (talk) 10:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There are three dead links and three dab links.
- There is one dab link (to Demographics of Tibet) left which is included through Template:Asia topic. The template is permanently protected, so I asked at the template's talk page to fix this link. bamse (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The prose needs a run-through, as there are quite a few little errors that need to be fixed. For example, in the history section, "The smallpox epidemic of 735–737 is believed to had killed as many as one-third of Japan's population." should be "…killed as much as…", not "as many as".
- Simple grammar question: "is believed to had killed" sounds wrong to my ears but I cannot think of a grammatical reason to fault it and while "is believed to have killed" to me sounds better, having have which is usually plural paired with the singular epidemic does seem to be inconsistent. I checked the phrases on Google, however, and the version with have is overwhelmingly used more. So what gives? What's the proper form and why? Only explanation I can come up with is that subject-verb agreement is fulfilled by "is believed" and "to have" is the proper infinitive form but then there is the following "killed" that seems to kill that explanation. Lambanog (talk) 04:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Lambanog, you are quite right. I went for the lesser grammar mistake in that sentence and completely missed the most obvious one. But this just further points out the issues with the prose. Dana boomer (talk) 19:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Bullet point lists, such as the one in the Climate section, are discouraged by MOS when the information could be easily presented as prose.
There are probably other issues, but, as I said, this was what I saw in a first sweep. Dana boomer (talk) 18:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that this article still needs a lot work. ja:日本 is much longer. I would like to see:
- * Summary of Foreign_relations_of_Japan
- * Alternative energy, IT, life science, metrology, nanotechnology, material science, etc.
- * Marine transport, shipbuilding, ports, deep sea exploration, and untapped seabed resources --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 15:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There may be room for expansion and addition, but you also need to be careful that the article doesn't get too long. It's already at 115 kb and 6800 words, which is well into the maximum size recommended by WP:SIZE. Extra information being added should be balanced by other sections more effectively using WP:Summary style. Dana boomer (talk) 17:41, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That is material probably better added to specific articles. A few lines could be inserted in total, but as Dana suggests it might better to trim some other text in order to fit any additions in.
- By the way, I think that a lot of changes have been made and the review is coming along well. I am going to have a look for anything that needs a citation. John Smith's (talk) 16:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to update the image captions to follow the image MOS - i.e. fullstops only for full sentences. John Smith's (talk) 16:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe this has an editorial reason, but shouldn't the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M%C5%8Dko_Sh%C5%ABrai_Ekotoba_2.jpg be more in the middle of the history section as second image? In my browser it is at the top of the section near the praehistoric history - where it doesn't fit to the chronological order of the text. GermanJoe (talk) 17:23, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's just down to the minimum realistic size of images and the fact that there's more than one in the section. If images were to sit exactly where they were referred to, articles would often look awful as the pictures would be clumped up and distort text. John Smith's (talk) 10:28, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More comments - I was asked on my talk page to return to my comments, so here are some more thoughts:
- Still text sandwiched between images in the Politics, Infrastructure and Sports sections. I've also asked an image expert to look over all of the licensing, so he will hopefully be stopping by soon.
- Still the gallery in the Sports section, see comment above.
- Still many references inconsistently formatted/missing information. I'm seeing bare links, missing publishers, missing access dates, some repeated refs that use the named ref feature and others that don't, and quite a few middling-quality refs when the FA requirement is for high-quality sources and a thorough review of the available literature (including books, peer reviewed journal article, etc).
- Still quite a few short, choppy paragraphs and sections.
- Still one dead link (see here), and the dab link to Demographics of Tibet - perhaps ping wherever you placed the request?
- A mix of British and American spelling (both neighbor and neighbour, for instance). Please make a sweep through the entire article.
- Another sweep of the prose should be done for clarity and purposeful writing. While there are fewer grammatical errors, there are still quite a few places that are unclear. For instance, from the 20th century section:
- "In 1935, local assemblies were established in Taiwan." What are local assemblies? Does this mean that Japan invaded Taiwan and set up a government?
- "The Allied powers repatriated millions of ethnic Japanese from colonies throughout Asia." What does this mean? That ethnic Japanese were removed from colonies in East Asia outside of Japan and forced to return to Japan? Also, which Allied powers, Japan and its allies or the United States/Britain/etc, which are typically referred to as the Allied Powers?
- "all members of the bacteriological research units and members of the imperial family" This seems like a weird combination of people...scientists and royals. I know this is a summary article, but some hint needs to be given to the reader of why these scientists even had the possibility of being prosecuted.
A significant amount of work has obviously been put into this article since the beginning of this FAR, and for that I thank and congradulate the editors working on it. However, a bit more polishing is needed before this article is really back to FA quality. Dana boomer (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Number of islands in lead with "Japan is an archipelago of 6,852 islands." differs from the geography section of the article itself stating "Japan has over three thousand islands" (ca. 3,400?). I guess this could be a problem, how you count islands and which size still constitutes an "island", but the number should be consistent throughout the article. Maybe add a small comment, how the number (either one) is calculated, if there is such a large possible difference. GermanJoe (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Joe, that was a good one to spot. It was easily rectified, as the 6,852 figure is the official Japanese figure (see the link in the lead). I've decided to go with that one and replace the 3,000+ number. John Smith's (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Image concerns:
- File:Regions and Prefectures of Japan.svg: The base map, File:Region system8.png, is "Created by myself using Inkscape and existing prefectural maps on Wikipedia." So which "existing prefectural maps"?
- File:Japan (orthographic projection).svg: Per commons:Commons:Image casebook#Maps and satellite images, from what data set or public domain sources was this generated from?
File:Sumo tournament.jpg: The image does not carry any assertion of its relationship to the uploader. Who created (and holds the copyright of) this photograph (a template does not serve this purpose)?Replaced by File:Sumo.jpg, which is okay. Jappalang (talk) 03:02, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]File:Tokugawa 1.jpg, File:Ch5 wakamurasaki.jpg, and File:Mōko Shūrai Ekotoba 2.jpg: These fail WP:CITE. Even if these are images of public domain work, information is necessary to verify their nature (scan or photograph—done by others or taken by oneself) and origin (original, copy, or later reproduction).Replaced by File:Genjosanzo.jpg and File:Brooklyn Museum - Scene from the Tale of Genji - overall.jpg, which are okay. Jappalang (talk) 03:02, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above should be addressed to show the best work of Wikipedia (using the best available verifiable sources and images compliant with policies and guidelines). Side note: Japan has freedom of panorama for outdoor architecture, File:Tokyo stock exchange.jpg could be construed as a copyright violation of the internal architecture. It is my view that the LED panels and seating/office arrangement are temporary structures, and are not "architecture", which I believe are permanent structures. As such, I do not think the image is a copyright violation. Jappalang (talk) 01:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- To be fair I think that those images you refer to should be put through the usual deletion/query process for files on Wikipedia. If there's an obvious violation of copyright I can see the need to remove an image. Otherwise I think they should be put up for deletion/review. John Smith's (talk) 11:07, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Featured articles are supposed to be the best examples of the project's policies and guidelines, and the rules evolve. An image may not necessarily be a copy violation or require deletion because it does not comply with certain policies or guidelines. However, their flaws/non-compliance mean they are not the "best examples that the project can provide", which FAs require. Jappalang (talk) 03:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The problematic non-maps have all been replaced. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Prefecture map has been removed, infobox map has been replaced. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments and Suggestions - i really enjoyed reading that article and found it mostly well-written and informative. However i have two general concerns and a long list of minor tweak suggestions. General Concerns - Linking throughout the article is a bit loose, several general common terms are linked. On the other hand whole phrases are linked to only partially relevant sub-articles. I have added a few examples in my suggestions, but would encourage a main editor to strengthen the link quality over the whole article. As second point the article focus seems to be be a bit broad and too detailed, especially for the longer sections like history or economy, chances for trimming should be checked again.Suggestions for tweaks following:
Lead "Since adopting its constitution in 1947" ==> maybe "Since adopting an entirely revised constitution in 1947", the actual version sounds, like Japan didn't have a constitution before."It has the highest life expectancy of any country (according to UN and WHO estimates) and the third lowest infant mortality rate." ==> Avoid brackets with "According to UN and WHO estimates it has ..."?Prehistory "the Nara period is characterized by the appearance of a nascent [written] literature" ==> redundant for literature.Feudal era "The Tokugawa shogunate enacted measures like Buke shohatto to control the autonomous daimyo." ==> The actual phrasing forces the reader to click the Buke-link to understand the whole context. Add a small descriptive phrase like "...Buke shohatto as code of conduct to control ...".20th century After "In 1936, Japan signed the ..." four consecutive sentences start with "In {year}, Japan". Try rewording the 2nd and 4th sentence. Also 3rd and 4th sentence use "invaded", switch second occurance to "occupied" or something similar."After the Soviet invasion of Manchuria and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, Japan agreed to an unconditional surrender on August 15 (Victory over Japan Day)." ==> I am bit sceptical about using the (probably loaded) allied term "Victory over Japan Day" in an article about Japan under NPOV considerations. As mentioning all names for this day of both sides for neutrality would go a bit too far, i suggest to remove the allied term."The Allied occupation", "a major recession" ==> Unlink "the", "a" and check for similar link phrases."Japan later achieved spectacular growth.." ==> I agree, it was spectacular. But consider using a little more neutral term within the article ("rapid", "enormous", ...?)."This ended in the mid-1990s when Japan suffered a major recession. Positive growth in the early 21st century has signaled a gradual recovery." ==> Two short sentences, which could probably be combined with a ",but".- Geography "The 1923 Tokyo earthquake killed over 140,000 people. The most recent major quakes are the 2004 Chūetsu earthquake and the 1995 Great Hanshin Earthquake." ==> Combine sentences and sort earthquakes by ascending date in order of events.
- Disagree with combining sentences, as the first sentence refers to a historically significant earthquake resulting in major loss of life, whereas the second sentence offers examples of important recent earthquakes - the two are separate points. Chrono order is neither here nor there - I don't see a compelling rationale for either order in the context of the second sentence, so if you want to change it to 1995 then 2004 you can. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Climate "The Central Highland is a typical inland climate,..." ==> "... has a typical inland climate". Don't switch between different meanings of "climate", it is already used as a feature of a region."and the stationary rain front gradually works its way north" ==> "...gradually moves...", a rain front is no bulldozer :)."In late summer and early autumn, typhoons often bring heavy rain." ==> Link typhoon.Biodiversity a very short paragraph, either merge with "Climate" or add a bit more about typical Japanese fauna and flora?Enviroment As a central issue for Japan it's probably worth including here at length, but does it really need 3 whole paragraphs? Is it possible to trim it down to 2, avoiding side details?- Economy
merge first 2 paragraphs (both deal with historic aspects and the first is a bit small). "Japan's exports amounted to $US4,210 per capita in 2005." ==> typo, US$."$US4,210 per capita" shouldn't be linked (see WP:easter egg).Is it possible to trim the section a bit? The whole economy chapter reads like a massive wall of text and statistics, overwhelming the reader. I am not convinced, all those details are really needed in the main country article.- Science and Technology No need to link
"scientific research" and"research and development" as common phrases.- Disagree, as "research and development" has a specific meaning that may not be apparent to casual readers, and provides context for those interested. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Infrastructure "Japan's road spending has been extensive. Its 1.2 million kilometers of paved road are the main means of transportation." ==> Two directly related sentences, combine with comma.
Check "its 1.2 million" - it's?- Comma would be inappropriate here - they're not that directly related, although a semicolon might be workable. "Its" is correct - Japan's roads, not "It is" roads. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"The largest ports include Nagoya Port." ==> a bit short, can you add a bit more on the role of ports and sea connections for Japan?- Demographics "Japan suffers from a high suicide rate. In 2009, the number of suicides exceeded 30,000 for the twelfth straight year. Suicide is the leading cause of death for people under 30." ==> Combine related short sentences with comma (or semicolon for the 2nd and 3rd sentence).
- Again, comma would be inappropriate. I would prefer to keep these sentences intact, but a semicolon may be workable. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Religion "Taoism and Confucianism from China have also influenced Japanese beliefs and customs." ==> How? Is it possible to add 1-2 very brief examples?
- This section is deliberately short - Religion in Japan is available for a more in-depth view. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Language "Besides Japanese, the Ryukyuan languages, also part of the Japonic language family, are spoken in Okinawa; however, few children learn these languages." ==> Change semicolon to comma, as those sentences are not distinct enough.
- Again disagree about appropriateness of comma here. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Like i said, a very good article, but due to it's sheer size even a minor tweaking results in a massive list of points. GermanJoe (talk) 16:13, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments, GermanJoe. I've fixed all of them unless otherwise noted above. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- List updated. As the remaining points are probably a matter of taste (or my poor grammar), no problem with keeping the text as is. I will try and do another readthrough soon, when i find some more time. GermanJoe (talk) 19:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - round 2 after another readthrough.
- Prehistory "In 784, Emperor Kammu moved the capital from Nara to Nagaoka-kyō for a ten-year period before relocating it to Heian-kyō (modern Kyoto) in 794." ==> remove "for a ten-year period". Start and end already given.
- Feudal era "Japan's feudal era was characterized by the emergence of a ruling class of warriors, the samurai." ==> Can a whole era be characterized by the emergence of something? Consider rephrasing "The beginning of Japan's feudal era ...". Also, when the samurai were so important, one sentence in the whole section seems a bit short and vague - why were they so important or what was their role in Japan's society?
- Actually, there is more than a sentence - it just wasn't clear enough. Now rephrased
- "Zen Buddhism was introduced from China(?) in the Kamakura period (1185–1333)" ==> with no deeper knowledge of the different kinds of Buddhism, this seems to contradict section "Prehistory". There the article states, Buddhism was introduced from Korea(?) (a different kind of Buddhism?). Please clarify in Prehistory or here.
- "During the 16th century, traders and Jesuit missionaries ....between Japan and the West" ==> "the West" seems a bit vague and Japan-centric. Why not name the countries in question?
- Actually prefer this wording, despite its vagueness, as it more accurately reflects the dominant view presented in RS
- Geography "Japan was originally attached ... around 15 million years ago." ==> Put the plate related info directly behind other plate facts after "...Okhotsk Plate to the north. " to keep the topic together in one place.
- Climate "... foehn wind phenomenon." ==> Just "foehn wind" is clear enough.
- "The highest temperature ever measured in Japan—40.9 °C (105.6 °F)—was recorded on August 16, 2007." ==> A fun tidbit, but information on average temperature values would be far more useful within an encyclopedia.
- Environment "As a signatory ... obligations.[62]" ==> Please check link 62, the article behind it seems to be removed. Consider trimming the whole 2 sentences, there are only a few notable facts in them anyway (a lot of countries are obliged to reduce their emissions and their governments are "promising" improvements, that's hardly unique for Japan). Maybe reduce it to mention only the Kyoto conference briefly.
- Politics "The Diet consists of a House of Representatives with 480 seats, elected by popular vote every four years or when dissolved, and a House of Councillors of 242 seats, whose popularly-elected members serve six-year terms" ==> So both Houses are popularly elected? What's their main distinctive difference?
- The length of the terms and the number of seats, as described in this sentence
- Foreign Relations / Military Both sentences about UN security council seating in "Military" should be part of "Foreign Relations".
- "Military" could be filled up with the RIMPAC-statement from "Foreign Relations" or with some basic statistical data (number of personnel for each military branch for example).
- Please reread both sections and separate the content clearly between international politics and military stuff (where possible).
- Infrastructure "As of 2008, ...of Japan's electricity.[120]" ==> Link "nuclear power" one sentence earlier, also link "hydro power".
- Demographics "The Japanese population is rapidly aging as a result of a post–World War II baby boom followed by a decrease in birth rates." ==> Maybe grammatically correct, but reads awkward - the aging is the direct result of decreasing birth rates after the initial post-world war II baby boom. Consider rephrasing with the earlier cause first.
- Not sure what you mean here - could you clarify?
- No worries, i guess the structure is clear for a native-English speaker.GermanJoe (talk) 17:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- "Many younger Japanese are increasingly preferring not to marry or have families." ==> "increasingly preferring"?, rephrase "A growing number of young Japanese prefers not to marry or have families."?
- 1 dab-link in cities-table with second "Shizuoka".
- Religion link "syncretic". (GermanJoe (talk) 21:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- Already linked earlier in the section
- All done except where otherwise indicated. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- All relevant tweak suggestions done by Nikkimania, a nice improvement altogether. I see no glaring issues left actually. GermanJoe (talk) 17:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments This is looking quite close to a keep without FARC (I won't be the one closing, obviously, since I initiated the review, but that's my opinion). A few more comments, however:
- Foreign language refs (such as #1, 39) should have the language specified.
- Why are we using two different editions of Totman's A History of Japan as sources?
- I can only guess that some editors have been using one edition, whilst another edition was used by someone else. I can't verify all the references with my edition (2000), so I think it's better to leave as it is.
- A lot of the references use acronyms (JNTO, OECD, etc) that won't be obvious to many readers.
- Feudal era, "who was soon himself defeated". Sounds odd; perhaps "who was himself soon defeated..."?
- Done.
- Feudal era, "like Buke shohatto". Should this be "buke" with a lowercase "b"? That is how it is used in sentences in its own article.
- Done.
- 20th century, "The Allies (led by the US) repatriated millions of ethnic Japanese from colonies and military camps throughout Asia." Why?
- Because the war was over and the empire was eliminated. Attempted to clarify. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Geography, "About 70 to 80 percent of Japan..." 10% is a large difference - do sources not agree?
- Climate, "the stationary rain front gradually moves" Doesn't stationary mean it doesn't move?
- Removed "stationary".
- Economy, "As of 2001, Japan's shrinking labor force consisted of some 67 million workers." This statistic is 10 years old; can we find something more recent?
- Done.
- Science and technology - The discussion of the Kaguya program is almost four years old. Is the probe still up there? Has it done anything interesting?
- Done.
- Demographics - Are there any theories for the reason behind the high suicide rate?
- Plenty of theories but no hard evidence as to any single reason. It's a very complex subject, and I'm not sure we could do it justice here. Though if someone has a good article covering all the viewpoints I guess we could add that in.
- Music, "A 1993 survey by the Cultural Affairs Agency...". Any updates in the page 18 years?
- Not that I've been able to find, but I'll keep looking. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Literature, "the chōnin, the ordinary people," Perhaps "the chonin, or ordinary people"?
- Clarified.
Overall, looks nice. A bit more work on comprehensiveness and prose and it should be good to go. Thank you to everyone for their great work on this article. Dana boomer (talk) 21:45, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Am too tired to do anymore, would appreciate it if someone else could take the rest forward. John Smith's (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- All done except where otherwise indicated. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is there a reason to use the CIA map for Japan. It seems strange to highlight ASEAN+3 in a map of Japan. Surely an orthographic projection map which doesn't shove Japan to a corner but places it in the centre would be much better? If there's a problem with the sourcing here, then every country using these maps will have an issue. If this can't be used, can another one be made from a current PD map that does not highlight ASEAN+3 and has Japan much more centred? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Edited the map. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Calling everything up to the Heian period "Prehistory" is very unusual as far as I am aware of. Maybe the section name could be changed to "Prehistory to Classical Japan" or "Prehistory, Ancient and Classical Japan" or to something else. bamse (talk) 12:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC) Also, for variety maybe the first image (in prehistory section) could be replaced with something older (e.g. Jōmon Pottery, dogū, haniwa). The present picture is a bit too similar in style (scroll) and content (horses) to the second (Mongol invasion) image. bamse (talk) 13:02, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep without FARC - At this point, I believe enough work has been done on this article to warrant it being kept without a FARC. I would suggest pinging other editors who have made comments to see if they share my opinion or have further comments. I will leave a note for Raul, letting him know that this will be his to close, since I have been rather intimately involved :) Dana boomer (talk) 15:54, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I tend to agree with Dana, there's been a lot of work done here - and a lot of improvement. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:25, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Some sections (History, Economy, Politics, Demographics) still "feel" a bit too detailed, but this isn't enough to demote it in my opinion. The article has seen many significant improvements in structure and content. GermanJoe (talk) 14:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: Although I agree with GermanJoe that some parts such as History are slightly too detailed (subsections that don't even have main links), the pictures could be rearranged into a much nicer format, and one or two tiny paragraphs, the article is referenced throughout and well-written, and I feel that the tiny problems in the article are inconsequential and the article should remain a FA. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:21, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Featured article removal candidates
- Place the most recent review at the top. If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 14:34, 13 June 2011 [16].
Review commentary
- Notified: KarlMathiessen, Tomeasy, Lars T., Boson, WikiProject Germany
I am nominating this featured article for review because I think it fails some of the FA criterion. It was promoted in 2007.
Criterion I believe not up to standard:
- 1(b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context
- 1(c) well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate;
- 1(d) neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias;
- 2(a) a lead: a concise lead section that summarizes the topic and prepares the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections;
- 2(b) appropriate structure: a system of hierarchical section headings and a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents;
- 4 Length. It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
Summary of issues copied from the talk page:
- The lead has sources not present in the rest of the article, suggesting it is presenting new information and therefore not being a summary of the article.
- History section clearly fails summary style. In addition, a fair number of paragraphs in history are unsourced.
- Geography section is shockingly undersourced.
- There is basically no information about the administrative divisions. Just an unsourced sentence and an unsourced list.
- Climate has just one citation.
- 3/4 paragraphs in biodiversity are uncited.
- Environment section seems to be slightly promotional, as well as half unsourced.
- The Politics, government, and law sections are almost unsourced.
- Half of military unsourced
- Much of Energy unsourced
- Unsourced statistics in demographics section
- Media has two small pointless unsourced paragraphs.
- Some writing seems promotional, eg. "Germany has established a positive reputation around the globe. (Claudia Schiffer, model)" Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments by Night w
- The captions and images in that last section don't make sense together. The first one: "Germany has established a positive reputation around the globe," doesn't seem to have anything to do with Claudia Schiffer? The second is the same: it talks about Germans travelling abroad, but then the image is of Schloss Neuschwanstein. Most of the content in that section is basic data, and there isn't anything I can see that'd have an appropriate image. I'd suggest either removing them, or moving them to a more appropriate section.
- I see overlinking in the lead. "Temperate climate" is linked in the climate section, "federation" and "parliamentary republic" in the infobox. I don't see the need to link to "purchasing power parity" when the ranking article is linked right next to it. Nightw 21:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I hope you don't mind, I fixed up a few minor issues I could see. For the states section, any objection to using this source? The figures are different to the ones currently in the article (I think theirs are more recent), and they apparently get them from Federal Statistical Office, though I can't find them on that site. Nightw 21:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd also argue that "Administrative divisions" should be changed to something else, since by definition federated states are not divisions. I'm not familiar, though, with the technical details of the situation in Germany. Nightw 17:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Have changed to 'Political snd administrative divisions' since it describes the "division" into Länder and Kreise. The United States article uses "Political divisions". --Boson (talk) 18:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps Regierungsbezirke should also be mentioned. --Boson (talk) 18:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern brought up in the review section include comprehensiveness, sourcing, neutrality and MOS compliance. Dana boomer (talk) 01:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- 2 dead links left after fixing the rest, 1 link to PW protected site (oxfordreference), no dab links, automatic peer reviewer (while not always 100% accurate) points to
missing nbsp in front of units, occasional weasel wording andsome mixups between British (article style) and American English. Some of the sources, like in section "Climate", cover the whole section or several sentences, so the situation may not be as bad as it looks - but it certainly needs thorough checking. GermanJoe (talk) 11:23, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - This has been at FARC for over two weeks, with no comments on whether the article should be kept or delisted. Could we please get some thoughts on this subject? Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 14:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delistChipmunkdavis (talk) 00:33, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]- Delist at the moment. While I think the article has everything it needs to be a FA, it still basically just has far too much information. The History section is huge, with many paragraphs lacking entire sources. Many other sections also contain large unsourced paragraphs,
and the Table of Contents is a monster. There is also far too many images.Editors of the article I feel could still easily bring this to almost FA level by simply removing excess unsourced information, and sourcing what little remains to be sourced. I do however commend the amazing work of editors in improving this article since I opened this FAR, I reckon they checked every source in the article, which is fantastic. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:27, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
* Strong Delist The version which has been put for a review qualifies still for a FA status. The number of references are still the most pressing issue, but it should be acknowledged that all of the old ones have been checked. Some controversial rethoric has been improved. Some controversial images have been removed. The History section is already a very condensed version of History of Germany. The critcism "the Table of Contents is a monster" should not be seen as valuable hint. The TOC is comparable to many other articles especially those dealing with nations. The criticism that too many images are part of the article contributing to a lower quality has to be rejected. The images fulfil an important part in communicating the written content and maintain the FA quality standards. KarlMathiessen (talk) 21:33, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
[reply]
- Comment As of today some necessary cutbacks (in History) have been done. Nevertheless the process of reviewing and reediting the article has lead to a loss content, a loss of references, a loss of significant illustration and a loss a comprehensive presentation of the issue. So far the quality has been lowered and can´t qualify for an FA status anymore. KarlMathiessen (talk) 07:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 2 As of today it can be observed that the article does not even fulfil the first requirement of a good article as it has become highly unstable. Because of the repeated deletion of stable longterm content, the article does experiences an ongoing devaluation. At the moment no evidence of improvements can be recognised. The article fails FA and GA standards and will most likely deteriorate in the week ahead rapidly. KarlMathiessen (talk) 14:10, 21 April 2011 (UTC)Striking commentary of user blocked as a sockpuppet. Dana boomer (talk) 14:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The current instability is in response to the review process and thus does not contravene the FA or GA requirements ("its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured article process" (my emphasis)). I will not comment on the rest of your post except to say that I disagree: in my view, the article has experienced a net improvement due to the addition of citations, formatting and layout changes, etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:58, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Request further extension of FARC review and input from previously uninvolved reviewers. – The article is currently being worked on, and many referencing issues have been addressed. Summary style of the history section (and the use of the {{Main}} template) may still be an issue, in my opinion. A major focus at the moment is the number of images, which is currently at the dicussion phase of the WP:BRD process. The number of images was over 60; this was reduced to around 34, and the FARC objection was struck out; however, the bold removal of images (and other media) has now largely been reverted, back to about 60. Input from previously uninvolved reviewers more familiar with featured articles and the interpretation of FA criteria would be appreciated. --Boson (talk) 11:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - The image issue can hopefully be solved on some middle ground. The referencing has been greatly improved, though i haven't had time to check them in depth. History and overall prose could still use some work and more time for tweaking - but the article has to summarize more than 2,500 years of history, so at some point "summary style" will reach its limitations. GermanJoe (talk) 08:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment I would say Delist. After considering Wikipedia:Featured article criteria my comment would be this: 1. The lemma is not consistently well written, example: Weimar Republic and Third Reich 2. The lemma is not well sourced: I estimate 30-40 references are missing 3. The lemma does not use appropriate images and media: Many sections fail to include appropriate images, example: introduction culture, law, health, economy, holy roman empire, berlin republic.Herr Kent (talk) 20:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Not all sections need to have images. Can you be more specific on what/where references are needed? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delist. Agree on the previous arguments by Herr Kent. To me the article portrays an old fashioned Germany that has nothing to do with reality. Important images have been cancelled. This article is not worth the high merits of Wikipedia. Kantianer (talk) 08:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Striking commentary of user blocked as a sock puppet. Dana boomer (talk) 14:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Unnecessary and redundant "important" images have been removed so this article can stay a FA. From WP:IUP: "For an image to add to an article, it should be relevant and helpful in making a point. In general, images that are not mentioned in the article itself, tend to not meet this guideline." Kantianer and Herr Kent seem to miss this point. —Кузьма討論 11:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note - two of the editors making declarations at this FARC (KarlMathiessen and Kantianer) have been blocked as sockpuppets. Can other editors offer insight into whether this article should be kept or delisted, and what improvements are still needed? Nikkimaria (talk) 11:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have listed some not very serious (and easily fixed) issues at Talk:Germany#Remaining FA concerns. Once most of those are fixed, I would be for Keep. --Boson (talk) 12:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The issues raised have been adequately addressed.--Boson (talk) 23:31, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. After an "interesting" FAR process with many ups and downs the article (especially sourcing and prose tweaks) has improved enough to be kept FA. Image usage is obviously a matter of taste sometimes, but has been improved overall. GermanJoe (talk) 08:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The lack of references is the main problem I believe. The recently FA kept Japan article can give some direction in this respect. Around 200 references should be the aim for Germany. Italiano111 (talk) 22:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no specific number of references that an article needs, featured or not. If you see specific places that need references, please point them out. However, there is no number of refs to aim for and so a request for a certain number is not an actionable issue per the featured article criteria. Dana boomer (talk) 23:44, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The article has shaped up nicely, but I'm worried stability (criteria 1e) may be an issue. Are there guidelines on how to deal with this? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Conventionally instability in response to the featured article (or featured article review) process is exempted from consideration in the stability criterion, as obviously the article has to change (relatively) rapidly in response to the review process. Prior to this FAR the article was fairly stable, although as it's a high-profile article that measure is relative. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist Still not enough references. One other thing I noticed after remembering that I once commented on a missing sentence about the culture in the introduction (a year ago). Now we have an adequate phrase in the introduction but the culture part presents only Beethoven, a cake and Marx. I believe this does not characterise the culture in a comprehensive way. Italiano111 (talk) 22:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you point out specific facts or sections in need of further references? Also, while those are the only images in the Culture section, the section presents content on much more - you can't judge comprehensiveness on images alone. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:25, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Does anyone else think that the History section is disproportionately weighted towards post-1900 events? NW (Talk) 00:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Not when you consider, that Germany saw 4 completely different government systems (with all their consequences), 2 World Wars and a Cold War within this period; those enormous and rapid changes need to be covered in greater detail. The history section is a bit wordy at times, but the complexity of the topic makes it difficult to trim further without loosing context. GermanJoe (talk) 13:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Somehow, from the opening of this FAR, Germany has managed to shed 37,672 bytes, 15 TOC headers, and 41 unnecessary pictures. This is even with the still-long history section. Interestingly enough, the number of references is currently the same (162). Anyway, if everyone agrees that this is good I think this FAR can end at Keep quite well, as soon as the last couple of minute reference issues are dealt with. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delegate comment - I think as soon as the last few tags taken care of - I see a couple of citation needed tags and a not in citation given tag - this can probably be kept. Is anyone still working on this that would be willing to take care of the tags? Dana boomer (talk) 15:45, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The citations in the "religion" section are a mess due to some previous reorganisations, but i'll try to clean some of them up over the weekend, together with the last missing cite. GermanJoe (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, a quick ce of the changes would be appreciated. The military reserve information had to be rather vague due to the current Bundeswehr reform. GermanJoe (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The citations in the "religion" section are a mess due to some previous reorganisations, but i'll try to clean some of them up over the weekend, together with the last missing cite. GermanJoe (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Dana boomer 15:16, 26 May 2011 [17].
Review commentary
- Notified: WikiProject Cryptography, WikiProject Computing, Ww, Mangojuice, Matt Crypto, Phr
I am nominating this featured article for review because...it does not meet WP:WIAFA in its current state. Though somewhat comprehensive, it is not well written (the lead is very poor), and it lacks citations in numerous sections. It fails 1a,1b,2a, and 2c.
The FA was passed in 2006...the standards have been raised since, so the article doesn't appear to meet our 2011 FA requirements.
I have not raised the issues on the talk page because it is inactive. Smallman12q (talk) 14:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delegate note - The notification must still be made, even if the page is inactive. I am placing this review on hold and making a notification on the talk page. If, after a week, there has been no response and no work has been done on the article, this review can be reopened. Dana boomer (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delegate note - After a talk-page notification and month-long wait, few edits have been made and no substantive work completed on the article. The FAR may now proceed as normal, with the time frame being determined from the time stamp on this comments. Dana boomer (talk) 00:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some review/comments since nobody else seems to care:
- Excessive history section for the ancient part, rather vague in modern part with some filler text. Also the claims about Arab inventions need to be checked against the source. There's an editor around here that's been pushing that everywhere, often with poor or no source. There's even a clean-up project for him.
- The padlock icon discussion is downright silly.
- Cryptographic hash functions and MACs are discussed as part of "Symmetric-key cryptography" but this is plain wrong, they are separate topics. See toc in a standard textbook e.g.
- We're told that "Many have been thoroughly broken; see Category:Block ciphers", but the category has all the block ciphers. Is the reader expected to go through all of them to find examples?
- Some references only partially support the text they're after. For example, the one after "In 1997, it finally became publicly known that asymmetric key cryptography..." doesn't fully verify that paragraph. (And that particular issue is somewhat contentious, so needs secondary refs to boot.)
Can't fathom why "Cryptographic primitives" is given as major topic of cryptanalysis. The cryptanalysis article toc has a more reasonable wp:weighting of the major areas/issues. Let me explain this a bit further. Although the distinction is perhaps less sharp than in other fields, the "pure" (which is hardly ever called this way) aka mathematical cryptography concerns itself with the primitives mostly, whereas applied cryptography deals mostly with protocols/schemes etc. that use those primitives. You can convince yourself of this with a google books search for the linked terms.(false alarm on this, see discussion below)- "Export controls" section has a lot of filler text.
- There are several EU Copyright Directives, but the article fails to link to any (and I'm not sure which one is right because there's no citation).
- Minor concerns about POV, e.g. "Some more 'theoretical' cryptosystems ..." (use of scare quotes) Towards the end, unattributed POV: "The United States Department of Justice and FBI have not enforced the DMCA as rigorously as had been feared by some, but the law, nonetheless, remains a controversial one." (Next citation doesn't verify this.)
- The bibliography is rather weird. An overview article like this should have IMO a further reading section with monographs and textbooks annotated for the reader; see WP:FURTHER. (Even if this article were better, you can't possibly include the equivalent of a textbook in it.) The main problem with it is disorganization (needs subsections), and some entries refer to others (by comparison) that aren't even there, e.g. Scheneir's AP.
- The lead diagram PNG should probably be replaced with a SVG, and observe the principle of alignment in graphic design.
Overall the article reads fairly amateurish. Hope this helps, Tijfo098 (talk) 21:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The legal section lacks coverage of relevant topics such the of cryptography in self-incrimination.Smallman12q (talk) 22:52, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern mentioned in the review section include referencing, prose, neutrality and coverage. Dana boomer (talk) 01:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll be frank... Even though I think the article covers many aspects of cryptography digestable for a layman and does not contain any real misinformation, it is often fuzzy and neglects much of what "really" makes up modern cryptography – even though I'm not sure where the line between accessibility and comprehensiveness should be drawn. While I would have preferred to see the reader educated a bit about cryptography, at the same time I also tend to support demotion of the article. Unfortunately, my time/energy available to improve this article is pretty limited...
- (@Tijfo098:) "Cryptographic primitives" is a subsection of "Modern cryptography", not "Cryptanalysis". Regarding your distinction between "pure" and "applied" mathematics, the former is concerned with both atomic primitives and schemes (and to some degree protocols). Provable security, which reduces the security of schemes to that of their underlying primitives, is a major aspect of modern "pure" cryptography.
- While the article marginally mentions important aspects of modern cryptography such as the transition from (Shannon's) information-theoretically secure systems to the concept of computationally secure systems, the connections to complexity theory, the modern understandings of "security" (semantic security), attack models, etc., modern provable security etc., this should almost definitely be improved (even though I'm wary of where to draw the line between accessibility and comprehensiveness).
- Curiously, the article does not have an Applications section at all. Other aspects of interest but not covered are Social aspects of cryptography.
- It's not a bad article, but probably not good enough for FA. Nageh (talk) 19:24, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, sorry about me incorrectly observing that primitives was a sub-section of cryptanalysis in the article; it never was so--false alarm on that issue. On your other point, i.e. on the relation to computational complexity, I am aware of it in no small part because I have a friend whose PhD thesis was on a (subtopic) of that (his adviser was J. Katz :-) While it is certainly an important (research) topic, I don't know how much emphasis an overview article like this should put on it. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Reading our stub on provable security and the ELs from it, I see there has been an academic (mostly PR) spat over that. (Koblitz vs. Goldreich, Barak, Katz, Wigderson, etc.) So, I can see why you'd want to emphasize that in the main article, although you have to consider that the average Wikipedia reader arriving there probably understands cryptography at the level of the "padlock icon" :-) Telling them of some academic controversy is probably not going improve their knowledge much, so I suggest 1-2 paragraphs at the most on provable security in the main article. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- FWIW, based on those letters, the "standard" name for "pure" cryptography is "Foundations of Cryptography". Perhaps the article should follow that convention. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well... I'd like to see aspects of modern cryptography such as provable security emphasized because it really is what distinguishes it from classical trial-and-error cryptography. You will rarely find papers on cryptographic primitives accepted nowadays without some sort of security proofs. Don't be misguided by our poor stubs, which prefer to cover a PR spat (that it is) rather than to outline the real significance of provable security (and concrete security, in particular). Anyway, I am aware that too much coverage of this may be misplaced in a general article (especially after all the bashing at maths folks and the like that they do not aim for accessibility of articles).
- Regarding your distinction between "pure" and "applied" cryptograpy, I'd rather call it "theoretical" and "practical". (At least, that's what I am familiar with, even though there is still some fuzziness in it.)
- Concluding, there are several aspects in which the article could be improved. But I'd rather like to participate in discussion and help out improving the article rather than tackle it on my own, simply because bringing it up to FA status again takes lots of time. (Appreciation for all those who do work towards FAC.) Nageh (talk) 15:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not that easily misguided, I've improved the provable security stub with a link to a paper that has substantive technical discussion (instead of mainly back-and-forth rhetoric). Tijfo098 (talk) 15:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - This has been at FARC for over two weeks, with no comments on whether the article should be kept or delisted. Could we please get some thoughts on this subject? Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 14:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Nageh tends towards delisting above, even if he didn't bold that part of his statement. I tend to agree with him, the article is not terrible, but not great either, B class I would say. Let's see if any improvements are made following the promise below. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - There's still problems in the article. GamerPro64 (talk) 20:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please extend FARC - Despite the fact that I believe the article needs significant work, I am inclined to believe that it deserves a further chance. I will put some comments on the article's talk page over the next day or so and see if there is any concensus on proposed changes. If there is concensus or there is no response I will go ahead and edit some sections. FrankFlanagan (talk) 22:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Frank, can we please get an update on this? Dana boomer (talk) 02:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have done a user space draft of a new section on authentication User:FrankFlanagan/Authentication and a talk page draft of a re-write of the lead. I have got some talk page comments on these and sought to incorporate them. Nageh has indicated on the talk page that he will review these, hopefully in the next couple of days. I am reticent to make major amendments to an FA without some concensus.FrankFlanagan (talk) 04:55, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Having obtained some feedback on my efforts I am now of the view that it will take me too long to get any susbtantial contribution into shape and withdraw my request that the FARC should be deferred. FrankFlanagan (talk) 18:52, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To answer two of the points above:
- Arab cryptography: this article used to include a claim that the Arabs invented polyalphabetic ciphers. This extraordinary claim is not supported by the sources cited and I've removed it. The sources do support the content currently in the article concerning Arab cryptography.
- Broken block ciphers: I've replaced the link to Category:Block ciphers with a link to a specific example of a block cipher that has been thoroughly broken.
Hut 8.5 20:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Remove This article is very sparsely referenced, including when it makes significant claims. This alone is sufficient for a remove opinion. Less importantly, and more specifically, it self-references Wikipedia. Including "(rhymes with "Italy")" in a caption strikes me as dumbing down. --Dweller (talk) 12:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 14:08, 6 July 2011 [18].
Review commentary
I am nominating this featured article for review because there are several issues that compromise its quality and I have brought them to talk a week ago with no response there and only some of the changes I suggested below being addressed:
- Some recentism with choppy sentences about 2009 and 2010 and an excessively long section about the Chilean miner show. (E.g. is it really noteworthy that the band didn't play a show in Tel Aviv?)
Link rot per bare URLs ({{Barelinks}}).- Use of non-free media: File:PixiesVelouriaVideo.png
- Unsourced information: if for no other reason, it fails 1 (c). See also (e.g.) the first paragraph under After the breakup, which is entirely unsourced.
- Some copyediting issues. E.g. the first paragraph under the heading Bossanova, Trompe le Monde, and breakup is only two sentences long and has an unnecessary quotation. Someone should review the text of this as well as the more specific issues mentioned above.
I think this is salvageable as a featured article, but it is not currently FA status in my mind and without a more substantial response on talk, I feel like FAR is appropriate. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
- I think the After the breakup section should be cut. It is not directly related to the Pixies, but rather to its band-members.
- A number of unreliable sources (incl. fansites) are used as sources; these will need to be replaced.
- Many song samples are embedded into the text; these need to be formatted with captions using Template:Listen to satisfy WP:NFCC.
- Could use copy-editing throughout, but yeah, the biggest concern is the awful Reunion section.—indopug (talk) 19:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -sigh- I'm currently trying to wrap up the Nirvana (band) FARC. Otherwise I could fix this up with little effort (I have access to biographical sources). I would ask for a delay in bringing this to FAC, but then again I don't think that's fair for an article that obviously needs cleanup. The main issue is that the primary contributor to the page has more or less retired. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I should note that the Pixies FA-level album articles Surfer Rosa and Doolittle (album) are better-sourced and much more stable, meaning some material can be imported from them. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Problems are mostly due to depreciation and the main author having more or less retired. I have sources, and scissors - chunks cut, more to go. I think this might be an easy enough to to head off before FARC. Ceoil (talk) 20:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Indopug - I wouldn't completly remove the 'After the breakup' section, but severly trim. Ceoil (talk) 20:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've added a few "cite needed tags" where appropriate. There's a lot of unnecessary detail about the albums themselves best reserved for the album articles. I feel if we can make the article flow more like R.E.M., it'll be a much stronger read. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I did some trimming. I think all four songs samples should be removed for NFCC, since they're only being used for color. Any objections? Noisalt (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Once we spruce up the Musical style section we can use one there. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:39, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Holidays and trying to finish up Nirvana (band) take top priority for me, but I aim to do some serious work once the new year commences. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:00, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have already said I'll help here, but then forgot about it. Time granted is appreciated. Ceoil (talk) 04:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm trying to help fix up some of the refs. Has there been discussion before about whether aleceiffel.com is a reliable source? It looks dubious to me, but is used as the source for several pieces of info, for which alternate sources would be needed. Moisejp (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gauging from the last time I saw it years ago, it looked to be a fansite to me. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:54, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Do we have an update on how work is going on this? Dana boomer (talk) 14:48, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been working on trying to get the references in order. I have tried to make the formatting style consistent and make sure all refs are sourced to reliable websites, but I still have a handful left to do. There is still however quite a bit of information throughout the article that is unsourced, so sources will need to be found or else other information will need to be substituted into the article. That is what I hope to focus on next. Besides that, I feel that especially the Legacy and Television Appearances sections need work. The Legacy section is presently just a scattering of quotes from bands saying how much they love the Pixies in no particular order. I would like to try to tone down this section (make it less idolatry) and give it better structure. I wonder how useful the Television Appearances/Videos section is and would not be sorry to see it cut. If it is kept we will certainly need better references for it. I also cut the Instrumentation section for reasons given in my edit summary. It seemed to me not of great interest to non-musician readers (i.e. "specialists") and most of the information came from unreliable sources from 1997 or earlier—we have no way of knowing if bandmembers may have changed their instrument preferences since then. Moisejp (talk) 15:57, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Moisejp I agree that there is a lot to be cut yet, and considering the Pixies hold on contemporary music is comparable to the velves on the 80s/90s, I'd leave out any specifics, and slant towards a more general postumus fame. Listy lists really suck and there is a danger here. Ceoil 06:35, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- At this point, making sure everything is referenced is probably more important than making sure the ref format is consistent. However, your work to remove unreliable sources seems to be going well, and was definitely needed. Perhaps ping some of the editors (Ceoil, etc) who commented above offering to help and see if they're still interested. Dana boomer (talk) 16:58, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We need to deemphasize the reliance on the official 4AD profile for the band. Quoting the band's record label website isn't the most objective route we can take. If possible, use alternate sources for the information cited. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree, esp considering the fall out between Ivo and Frank towards the end. Ceoil 06:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm also worried I may be using Allmusic refs too much, but it's just so handy. If people think there are too many, we can try to reduce them throughout the editing process. Moisejp (talk) 09:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The Allmusic bio is fine, but remember that there are at least three books that cover the band in-depth. I have Fool the World checked out and can hopefully add more cites and info from it soon. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm also worried I may be using Allmusic refs too much, but it's just so handy. If people think there are too many, we can try to reduce them throughout the editing process. Moisejp (talk) 09:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree, esp considering the fall out between Ivo and Frank towards the end. Ceoil 06:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We need to deemphasize the reliance on the official 4AD profile for the band. Quoting the band's record label website isn't the most objective route we can take. If possible, use alternate sources for the information cited. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update: OK, I've got pretty much every line referenced; what I have yet to do is the last paragraph of the Reunion section, which I also want to update with more recent info, and the Musical Style section. There may be one or two other sentences that I have missed, but I will go through line by line before I'm done to check. Oh, I just noticed now there are a couple of sentences in Music Videos and DVDs that lack refs. So that's the references, how about the balance of information? Are there any areas that get too much or too little text? I would like to add a little more to the first paragraph of Songwriting and Vocals, where Francis' themes are discussed, if I can find reliable refs—or another option would be to mention some critic's interpretations of the songs rather than direct citations from Francis. The lead also needs to be updated to reflect changes in content. If anyone would like to jump in and help out, for example with wording or really anything, please feel free. Thanks! Moisejp (talk) 08:55, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: I believe every statement in the article now has a citation. Was the consensus that the "Velouria" image should be cut? What about the sound clips? I am happy to cut them, too. Someone else suggested that they could eventually be incorporated into the Musical Style section. I don't see myself doing that, but if anyone else wants to add info to the Musical Style section that can be shaped around the sound clips, that's cool. Besides that, are there any holes in the article, or areas that otherwise need improvement, that the reviewers wish to point out? If so, I'll see what I can do to address them. Otherwise, I am happy to move onto the FARC commentary stage and to iron out any final wrinkles in that stage. (By the way, I will be out of town for the next 3 days.) Moisejp (talk) 15:54, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Can we get an update from all of the reviewers/editors on whether they think this article needs to go to FARC or can be kept without a FARC? Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 14:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- With the Nirvana FARC pretty much wrapped up at this point, I can devote time to helping out here now. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:03, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Now that the Nirvana FARC closed as a "keep", I can focus attention here now. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- With the work that has happened so far, can some reviewers please comment on whether this can be kept without FARC, or whether it should be moved? This has been languishing in the FAR section for several months as work has been happening, but it should either be closed or moved soon. Dana boomer (talk) 21:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Now that the Nirvana FARC closed as a "keep", I can focus attention here now. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Although extensive work has been completed on this article, work seems to have stalled in the past month or so. However, requests for updates and reviewer comments have gone mostly unanswered over this time period, so I am moving the article to the FARC section. Dana boomer (talk) 01:24, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, non-Wiki responsibilities have been eating into my time. I'll see what I can do in the next week. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:01, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Could we please get an update on how the work is going? Dana boomer (talk) 14:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I may have been mistaken about how this process works, but I have been expecting feedback from reviewers. I feel the article is in relatively good shape but may need slight polishing here and there depending on the opinions of the reviewers, and have been waiting for this feedback. I'm willing to take this wherever they want it taken. Or if there is no feedback I'm happy to leave it at this stage, depending also on whatever changes WesleyDodds wants to make. I've been a little bit frustrated at the lack of feedback, but I guess I can't blame anyone since we're all volunteers on here. ;-) Moisejp (talk) 23:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, it can sometimes be hard to get reviewer feedback here at FAR. I would suggest pinging the people that have commented above (Ceoil, Indopug and Justin (the nominator)) to see if they have further feedback or if they think the article can be kept as is. Just make sure to keep your notification neutral :) Pinging other music editors that you know to come take a look is also a good idea. I was just mainly not sure if you and Wesley had made all of the changes you were planning to make, or if you felt there was still more work to be done. Dana boomer (talk) 14:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I have neutrally pinged a few people and will try to ping a few more in the next few days. Thanks. Moisejp (talk) 12:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I got delayed recently by work, but I should be able to resume editing the article this weekend. The trouble I find is that the best comprehensive sources are oral histories of the band, and thus tend to be fuzzy about the details. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Can we please get an update here? I know extensive work has already been completed on the article, so even pinging the editors who commented above and other music editors to check in and see what else needs to be done would be a help. Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 14:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- My two cents I'm sorry that I've taken so long to get back to Dana, but I've only started editing Wikipedia again after a few months of very little editing and Internet access/free time. At the very least, this article still fails criteria 3: "Non-free images or media must satisfy the criteria for inclusion of non-free content and be labeled accordingly" for the inclusion of the "Velouria" screencap (I noted this months ago when I originally proposed this review: "Use of non-free media: File:PixiesVelouriaVideo.png". The article is in much better shape than it was before, but I'm pretty sure that this needs to go.
- As an aside, it seems to me like the FAR process is broken if the review can even go on this long without being closed. Again, I have not had much input here, but someone else should have stepped in and shut it down awhile ago until the necessary changes were made and then it could presumably be fast-tracked to FA status again. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:04, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the "Velouria" image. That said, I'm sorry but I think I pretty much have to drop out of this FARC process because a bunch of things have come up in my real life and I probably won't be able to get much or any Wikipedia time in for the next few months. Wesley, I hope this process won't drag on too much longer and you'll be able to take care of whatever comes up. My apologies for dropping out. If I do find a bit of time or succumb to the temptation and get on here when I should be doing other stuff, I'll try to have a peek here from time to time, though. Moisejp (talk) 13:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - I believe that the article is up to FA-standards. GamerPro64 02:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- No objection I am not really qualified to assess whether or not it has met the FA requirements—nly that it didn't before. From what I can tell, it's a very fine article and adequately covers the topic. Just now, I changed the article to collapse the notes section (which only had one entry) into an aside at the end of a sentence with a citation (which is apparently out-of-step with the rest of the article, but was like that when I got there.) I suppose if someone else really thinks it important, the notes section can be added back, but that seems silly to me. I would like to congratulate everyone who worked on this article (particularly WesleyDodds), as it seems like very fine work and something that I could not have done myself. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:27, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Query - do other editors feel this article's issues have been adequately addressed? Can this article be kept, or is additional work needed? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- no objection to staying FA - i'm sure there are small things to repair (as always), but the article is very solid. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 16:17, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 15:10, 2 May 2011 [19].
Review commentary
- Notified: Vaughan, Casliber, SandyGeorgia, EverSince, WikiProject Neuroscience, WikiProject Psychology, WikiProject Disability, WikiProject Medicine,
I am nominating this featured article for review because it is missing a tremendous amount of information regarding the neurological, genetic, neuroanatomical, neuropathophysiological, imaging and other hard-core-scientific information on schizophrenia. The absence of inclusion of major scientific articles (review articles, even), the lack of up-to-date information and the mental health bias that this article is written from all culminates in failing the FA standards. Basket of Puppies 23:24, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Specifically, areas 1b, 1c, 1d, 2a. 1b as it is missing a vast amount of information on the neurology and genetics, 1c as it is missing nearly all the latest research from the past 10 years, 1d as there is a strong bias for this being labeled a mental health disease and not a neurological disorder and 2a as the lede is in very poor shape (overly long, too many references). Basket of Puppies 23:38, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have notified editors talkpages and projects that seem concerned. Basket of Puppies 23:48, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I object to this review. When I saw the article's talk page, you only notified the whole thing yesterday. I think more time should have gone by before the review was made. GamerPro64 (talk) 23:54, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The review hasn't been made. I am opening it here to that we can work collaboratively to improve the article. Basket of Puppies 00:01, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Basket, you created this page within less than 48 hours of your first-ever comments on the article's talk page—comments that have been responded to appropriately, but not (reasonably enough) with busy people dropping everything during the holidays to instantly do your bidding.
- You should not have created this page at this time. You should have tried to improve the article by continuing the existing discussion at the article rather than starting a discussion here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- So I am not allowed to use Wikipedia process? Or do I have to ask you for permission? Seriously? Basket of Puppies 03:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you have to follow the written directions, which say, in step one, "attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors", not "if you don't get what you want instantly, then be sure to rush right over here and create a formal FAR page". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok. Thanks for making your position clear. Now, if you're so inclined, there is a large section below indicating the large and vast sections of the article that are unreferenced, outdated and missing. Care to help improve the article? Basket of Puppies 16:12, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This discussion is all wrong, because I have raised the issue of FAR many times, repeatedly, over a long period of time on talk. This FAR should proceed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok. Thanks for making your position clear. Now, if you're so inclined, there is a large section below indicating the large and vast sections of the article that are unreferenced, outdated and missing. Care to help improve the article? Basket of Puppies 16:12, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you have to follow the written directions, which say, in step one, "attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors", not "if you don't get what you want instantly, then be sure to rush right over here and create a formal FAR page". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- So I am not allowed to use Wikipedia process? Or do I have to ask you for permission? Seriously? Basket of Puppies 03:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The review hasn't been made. I am opening it here to that we can work collaboratively to improve the article. Basket of Puppies 00:01, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said before, BoP Iwould be not only happy but insanely grateful if you would havea look at the sources and summarise the neuroimaing stuff. I have been involved with this article for a few years now - gets pretty boring after while. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:28, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Appears to be a minor content issue. Still an FA IMO. Also still part of psychiatry last time I checked. Have not seen neurologists keen to get involved. MRIs are not used to diagnose schizophrenia at this. Thus I would expect a "mental health bias" as it is a mental health problem. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If by "minor content issue" you mean missing vast amounts of information, the current article presenting information incorrectly and lacking the last 10 years of research, then yes I agree it's a minor issue. This article also doesn't meet FA standards. Basket of Puppies 03:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Research paper and primary source (admit it is interesting thoug). Not what we do in clinical practice. Hence specialised information and not 'central'. Diagnosis is made on clinical grounds. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Uptodate does not mention MRI as being useful for confirming schizophrenia. This may be okay for a research section if you can find a review article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update on the use of MR for assessment and diagnosis of psychiatric diseases, a very good article I think. Basket of Puppies 04:02, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Uptodate does not mention MRI as being useful for confirming schizophrenia. This may be okay for a research section if you can find a review article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Areas to improve
The following areas are in need of updating, improvement and expansion. They are all nearly 10 years behind where the research is.
Neuralanatomical imaging Sections need to be divided into MRI, fMRI, DT-MRI, CT, PET and EEG findings. Each shows many different things and there is a lot of research that is not represented in the article. For example, the asymmetric P300 EEG findings are not represented at all and should be. This paper shows parietal lobe volume reductions in schizophrenia patients but the word "parietal" doesn't even appear in the article.
Neurophysiological issues The article emphasized a role of dopamine while completely ignoring ErbB4 protein dysfunction in schizophrenia. We have largely moved away from the dopamine imbalances to a more global protein issue.
Genetic At present there are 40 candidate genes being studied for their role in schizophrenia. This is not represented at all and needs to be included.
If you are wondering just who I am and why I am saying all of this, I have done extensive amount of graduate work on schizophrenia and am rather up on all of the research. I hope you understand my intentions are pure and only meant to improve the article and lead to a better wiki. I just cannot, in good conscience, see how this article even remotely meets the FA criteria. It will take a few months of work to get the article updated and improved to the point where it can be reconsidered for FA status. Basket of Puppies 03:57, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support removing this article's FA status. Missing sections, big chunks of unreferenced information and some sections which seriously need to be expanded (the entirety of "Society and culture", for example. Ironholds (talk) 04:22, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see the instructions at WP:FAR; delist or keep are not declared in the FAR phase. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:24, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Disagree Article is still a FA. These issues are in the research stage. Not important clinically at this point and thus not needed for the FA status. The second ref is a primary research study thus not recommended to be used per WP:MEDRS the first is not characterized as a review either by pubmed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:28, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- DJ, are you saying that this article needs to be limited to the clinical presentation of schizophrenia and that research can be excluded? Basket of Puppies 04:32, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think he's saying that the issues you're discussing aren't established parts of medicine regarding Schizophrenia, not that only clinical, practical matters are worth including ("clinical" was probably just a poorly chosen word). Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And what about the massive areas which aren't covered and the chunks of unreferenced text? And clinical or no, if they're reliable, third-party sources you have to come up with something better than "they're not clinically important at this point" to justify their irrelevance. Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Which "massive areas" are you refering to? Genetics is discussed. Neuroimaging is not used in diagnosis except to rule out other causes. I do not see the "chunks of unreferenced text". This page is 139,425 bites of text. It is on the long side as it is. Some text should actually be split of into subarticles if anything. What I am saying is that if you wish to discuss research please use review articles. And all the is really needed is a brief summary. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:49, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, are you claiming that this article needs to be limited to clinical information only? Basket of Puppies 04:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Which "massive areas" are you refering to? Genetics is discussed. Neuroimaging is not used in diagnosis except to rule out other causes. I do not see the "chunks of unreferenced text". This page is 139,425 bites of text. It is on the long side as it is. Some text should actually be split of into subarticles if anything. What I am saying is that if you wish to discuss research please use review articles. And all the is really needed is a brief summary. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:49, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And what about the massive areas which aren't covered and the chunks of unreferenced text? And clinical or no, if they're reliable, third-party sources you have to come up with something better than "they're not clinically important at this point" to justify their irrelevance. Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think he's saying that the issues you're discussing aren't established parts of medicine regarding Schizophrenia, not that only clinical, practical matters are worth including ("clinical" was probably just a poorly chosen word). Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- DJ, are you saying that this article needs to be limited to the clinical presentation of schizophrenia and that research can be excluded? Basket of Puppies 04:32, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Diseases such as schizophrenia have been vastly researched and WP articles can not include every piece of info on them. Many times even reviews on a subtopic of the disease are too specific to be included in a main article. A rule of thumb I have used in other similar articles is that if a fact is commented in a general review of the disease then it probably merits inclusion, if not it is probably very specific, and while still interesting it would not go a against content criteria. Do issues commented above appear in a general review of the disease? --Garrondo (talk) 08:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply to Comment Garrondo, I am not suggesting that rare subtopics be covered in depth but rather the basic, fundamental aspects of the disease be covered with up-to-date information that isn't 10 years out of date. Basket of Puppies 15:39, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Diseases such as schizophrenia have been vastly researched and WP articles can not include every piece of info on them. Many times even reviews on a subtopic of the disease are too specific to be included in a main article. A rule of thumb I have used in other similar articles is that if a fact is commented in a general review of the disease then it probably merits inclusion, if not it is probably very specific, and while still interesting it would not go a against content criteria. Do issues commented above appear in a general review of the disease? --Garrondo (talk) 08:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Society and Culture"; three paragraphs that fail to conform with the MOS and give a single unreferenced line on the economic burden. As for unreferenced areas:
- "There is often an observable pattern of emotional difficulty, for example lack of responsiveness or motivation. Impairment in social cognition is associated with schizophrenia, as are symptoms of paranoia, and social isolation commonly occurs. In one uncommon subtype, the person may be largely mute, remain motionless in bizarre postures, or exhibit purposeless agitation; these are signs of catatonia." - unreferenced.
- "Diagnosis is based on the self-reported experiences of the person, and abnormalities in behavior reported by family members, friends or co-workers, followed by a clinical assessment by a psychiatrist, social worker, clinical psychologist, mental health nurse or other mental health professional. Psychiatric assessment includes a psychiatric history and some form of mental status examination." - unreferenced"
- "Psychotic symptoms lasting less than a month may be diagnosed as brief psychotic disorder, and various conditions may be classed as psychotic disorder not otherwise specified. Schizophrenia cannot be diagnosed if symptoms of mood disorder are substantially present (although schizoaffective disorder could be diagnosed), or if symptoms of pervasive developmental disorder are present unless prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present, or if the symptoms are the direct physiological result of a general medical condition or a substance, such as abuse of a drug or medication." - unreferenced.
- "such as metabolic disturbance, systemic infection, syphilis, HIV infection, epilepsy, and brain lesions. It may be necessary to rule out a delirium, which can be distinguished by visual hallucinations, acute onset and fluctuating level of consciousness, and indicates an underlying medical illness. Investigations are not generally repeated for relapse unless there is a specific medical indication or possible adverse effects from antipsychotic medication." - unreferenced
- "The Hearing Voices Movement argues that many people diagnosed as psychotic need their experiences to be accepted and valued rather than medicalized." - unreferenced.
- "It would be greatly beneficial for further research to be done in this area, particularly in the metabolism of various essential amino acids and their pro- and inhibitory effects on neurotransmitter balance." - unreferenced.
- "The new clinical approach early intervention in psychosis is a secondary prevention strategy to prevent further episodes and prevent the long term disability associated with schizophrenia." - unreferenced.
- (done Earlypsychosis (talk) 06:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]
- "For other patients who are unwilling or unable to take medication regularly, long-acting depot preparations of antipsychotics may be given every two weeks to achieve control. The United States and Australia are two countries with laws allowing the forced administration of this type of medication on those who refuse, but are otherwise stable and living in the community." - unreferenced.
- "Lynch, Laws & McKenna found that no trial employing both blinding and psychological placebo has found CBT to be effective in either reducing symptoms or preventing relapse in schizophrenia." - unreferenced.
- And that's halfway through the article. Still think it deserves an FA star? Ironholds (talk) 05:02, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ironholds, I think you need to take a closer look at these, because they are not all in violation of the policies. For example, introductory statements that merely summarize what follows in the section do not require individual inline citations. Some of these are referenced, but (apparently) you didn't notice. For example, the Lynch, Laws and McKenna item has an inline citations in the middle of the sentence (you quote only the last half) that gives the full citation to a paper by Lynch, Laws and McKenna. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I did notice; the placing of inline citations before sentence clauses is inappropriate, except in specific situations (for example, at the immediate start of a list, where it is made apparent that the list is referenced to that source. Ironholds (talk) 16:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have long been concerned about this article, and have raised the issue many times on talk. It overrelies on primary sources and needs to be rewritten to secondary reviews to conform with WP:MEDRS. It is extremely long and slow to load because of the excessive reliance on primary sources. It gives undue weight to some primary sources and fringe theories; if it is not improved during FAR, I will be voting to Delist in the FARC phase. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I fully agree that it relies far too much on too many primary sources. I also note that what brings Basket of Puppies here is the resistance he encountered when he proposed adding even more primary sources to it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but the article has long needed review and upgrading, even if BoP is off on sourcing and understanding of WP:MEDRS (I see he proposed above the addition of another primary source). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with both WAID and Sandy my concern was that this was being proposed based on the insufficient coverage of research on neuroimaging, not based on concerns regarding a lack of review articles. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:39, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To be fair, at least one of the concerns was unrelated to the sources. Ironholds (talk) 16:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The use of primary sources isn't entirely wrong as long as there are secondary sources also being used with or in place of the primary. However, the most important article of neuroimaging is not a primary source but rather a secondary source. A review of MRI findings in schizophrenia is a secondary source according to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I referenced this journal article on the article talk page. Basket of Puppies 16:51, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That one appears to be nearly 10 years old. We should use something newer. Anyway have found a few reviews on the topic I will integrate when I have time.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If people will agree to actually begin updating this article to secondary reviews, I would not be opposed to closing the FAR, subject to revisiting it in the future if issues aren't addressed; working on an article this large while under the pressures of FAR would not be ideal, but something needs to give here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:08, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SG, how would you close the FAR? As delisted, I assume, as the article is nowhere near FA standards. I actually came to this article when I was writing a paper entitled Neuropathoanatomy and Neuropathophisiology of Schizophrenia and came to see what the wiki had to say about it, only to find all the information seriously outdated, wrong or missing. I feel that this FAR is necessary in order to keep the momentum going for a major update, but if a close is made then I can see it closed as delisted. Basket of Puppies 17:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be closed as a default keep, pending improvements and revisiting; that is standard. However, we may need to keep the pressure on to encourage work. The biggest problem here is that the 233 citations make it a daunting task to determine how many of them are primary sources, or if any of them are reviews that conform with WP:MEDRS. I see one review used several times (van Os J, Kapur S (August 2009). "Schizophrenia". Lancet 374 (9690): 635–45. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(09)60995-8. PMID 19700006), but the idea of checking the other 232 is a lot to take on. The excess sources may indicate cherrypicking, fringe theories, or outdated info; the article needs to be rewritten to secondary reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SG, this doesn't make any sense. You say that it will be kept as as default keep but then go on to say how the task at hand is daunting. How likely is that every reference will be checked and changed, vast sections become referenced that are currently unreferenced, huge sections are updated and expanded, inaccurate information removed and the article generally improved- all within an acceptable timeframe? It seems to me that this article needs to be immediately demoted from FA, worked on intensely over several months and then reconsidered for FA. Otherwise we are mislead the community and our readership about the scholarship and thoroughness of this article. Recall, I came here because I am author of a paper on schizophrenia and was literally horrified about what I saw. Basket of Puppies 00:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We don't ever immediately demote FAs at FAR; if work is proceeding, the FAR is likely to remain open for up to three months anyway. Same thing as if work is proceeding without FAR being open. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:21, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SG, I guess I am not being clear. My point is thus- this article is utterly incomplete, utterly outdated and absolutely does not meet FA standards. How can it possibly claim to represent FA standards when it is anything but close to it. Basket of Puppies 00:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You are being clear, but you're not understanding how FAR works. As long as work is proceeding, the FAR stays open; we don't automatically demote anything. Which is why I said I'd agree to the FAR being closed for now as long as work is proceeding, with the aim of revisiting when done. The goal of FAR is to improve articles, not remove stars, and Doc James is hard at work on the article.[20] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:51, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SG, I guess I am not being clear. My point is thus- this article is utterly incomplete, utterly outdated and absolutely does not meet FA standards. How can it possibly claim to represent FA standards when it is anything but close to it. Basket of Puppies 00:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We don't ever immediately demote FAs at FAR; if work is proceeding, the FAR is likely to remain open for up to three months anyway. Same thing as if work is proceeding without FAR being open. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:21, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SG, this doesn't make any sense. You say that it will be kept as as default keep but then go on to say how the task at hand is daunting. How likely is that every reference will be checked and changed, vast sections become referenced that are currently unreferenced, huge sections are updated and expanded, inaccurate information removed and the article generally improved- all within an acceptable timeframe? It seems to me that this article needs to be immediately demoted from FA, worked on intensely over several months and then reconsidered for FA. Otherwise we are mislead the community and our readership about the scholarship and thoroughness of this article. Recall, I came here because I am author of a paper on schizophrenia and was literally horrified about what I saw. Basket of Puppies 00:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be closed as a default keep, pending improvements and revisiting; that is standard. However, we may need to keep the pressure on to encourage work. The biggest problem here is that the 233 citations make it a daunting task to determine how many of them are primary sources, or if any of them are reviews that conform with WP:MEDRS. I see one review used several times (van Os J, Kapur S (August 2009). "Schizophrenia". Lancet 374 (9690): 635–45. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(09)60995-8. PMID 19700006), but the idea of checking the other 232 is a lot to take on. The excess sources may indicate cherrypicking, fringe theories, or outdated info; the article needs to be rewritten to secondary reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SG, how would you close the FAR? As delisted, I assume, as the article is nowhere near FA standards. I actually came to this article when I was writing a paper entitled Neuropathoanatomy and Neuropathophisiology of Schizophrenia and came to see what the wiki had to say about it, only to find all the information seriously outdated, wrong or missing. I feel that this FAR is necessary in order to keep the momentum going for a major update, but if a close is made then I can see it closed as delisted. Basket of Puppies 17:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If people will agree to actually begin updating this article to secondary reviews, I would not be opposed to closing the FAR, subject to revisiting it in the future if issues aren't addressed; working on an article this large while under the pressures of FAR would not be ideal, but something needs to give here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:08, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That one appears to be nearly 10 years old. We should use something newer. Anyway have found a few reviews on the topic I will integrate when I have time.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The use of primary sources isn't entirely wrong as long as there are secondary sources also being used with or in place of the primary. However, the most important article of neuroimaging is not a primary source but rather a secondary source. A review of MRI findings in schizophrenia is a secondary source according to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. I referenced this journal article on the article talk page. Basket of Puppies 16:51, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To be fair, at least one of the concerns was unrelated to the sources. Ironholds (talk) 16:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with both WAID and Sandy my concern was that this was being proposed based on the insufficient coverage of research on neuroimaging, not based on concerns regarding a lack of review articles. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:39, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but the article has long needed review and upgrading, even if BoP is off on sourcing and understanding of WP:MEDRS (I see he proposed above the addition of another primary source). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(undent)BoP, following up on what Sandy said: because FAR is supposed to be a place to improve articles that may have fallen below FA criteria, no FA is immediately delisted. The minimum time that a FA can be at FAR before being delisted is one month (two weeks at FAR, then two weeks at FARC where actual voting takes place). The only way a FA can be removed from the FAR page before the month is up is by being improved to the point where editors not involved in the improvement process feel that it should remain a FA. If the FAR were to be closed now (by me, as I appear to be the only active FAR delegate), it would be closed as a keep, because that is the default status. Dana boomer (talk) 00:58, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That is overly bureaucratic and Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. I am confused as to how this article ever became a FA and shocked that through bureaucracy it will remain despite the clear failure of the article. Basket of Puppies 01:08, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If you are displeased as to the disconnect between the article's current state and its listed status, I would suggest that you assist DocJames and other editors in fixing the article. Improving the article is the fastest way to remedy the disconnect. Dana boomer (talk) 01:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- BasketofPuppies, if I understand the rationale correctly, Wikipedia's goal (or one of them) is to have as much featured content as possible. Because of the high standard, the nitpicking and amount of time spent making sure the article is of appropriate quality is great. Since we want to have lots of featured content and avoid paperwork when possible, it is much easier to fix the article than it is to have it delisted and then renominated - the latter takes far more time. Ironholds (talk) 01:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright. I am going to focus my time on the neurology section. Basket of Puppies 02:36, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have completely redone this section. Before and after. Before it was completely unorganized and included vast stretches of inaccurate information while after it is organized by subtopic (type of imaging/investigation) and includes review articles (mostly) on those topics. The formatting may not be perfect, but it's much more up-to-date and, as importantly, accurate. I will continue to work on it for days to come. Now, I go to sleep. :) Basket of Puppies 05:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- When working on medical FAs, it is helpful to review and understand WP:MEDMOS on article structure. See also WP:WIAFA, 2b, on article structure and TOC; we now have a rambling and over-detailed section in an article that already needs to be shortened (now 6250 words from 5900 when you started). If you would work in sandbox, it might be more productive for all. All of that appears to be related to pathyphsiology (sic), and need not cover multiple sections and so much detail. I would not like to see this article delisted because it was damaged at FAR; the goal is improvement-- working consensually with other editors will yield the best result. Perhaps you'd like to include that detail at Mechanisms of schizophrenia so it can be summarized to this overview article? We have now gone from:
- 3 Mechanisms
- 3.1 Psychological
- 3.2 Neural
- 3 Mechanisms
- When working on medical FAs, it is helpful to review and understand WP:MEDMOS on article structure. See also WP:WIAFA, 2b, on article structure and TOC; we now have a rambling and over-detailed section in an article that already needs to be shortened (now 6250 words from 5900 when you started). If you would work in sandbox, it might be more productive for all. All of that appears to be related to pathyphsiology (sic), and need not cover multiple sections and so much detail. I would not like to see this article delisted because it was damaged at FAR; the goal is improvement-- working consensually with other editors will yield the best result. Perhaps you'd like to include that detail at Mechanisms of schizophrenia so it can be summarized to this overview article? We have now gone from:
- I have completely redone this section. Before and after. Before it was completely unorganized and included vast stretches of inaccurate information while after it is organized by subtopic (type of imaging/investigation) and includes review articles (mostly) on those topics. The formatting may not be perfect, but it's much more up-to-date and, as importantly, accurate. I will continue to work on it for days to come. Now, I go to sleep. :) Basket of Puppies 05:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright. I am going to focus my time on the neurology section. Basket of Puppies 02:36, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- BasketofPuppies, if I understand the rationale correctly, Wikipedia's goal (or one of them) is to have as much featured content as possible. Because of the high standard, the nitpicking and amount of time spent making sure the article is of appropriate quality is great. Since we want to have lots of featured content and avoid paperwork when possible, it is much easier to fix the article than it is to have it delisted and then renominated - the latter takes far more time. Ironholds (talk) 01:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If you are displeased as to the disconnect between the article's current state and its listed status, I would suggest that you assist DocJames and other editors in fixing the article. Improving the article is the fastest way to remedy the disconnect. Dana boomer (talk) 01:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- to:
- 3 Mechanisms
- 3.1 Psychological
- 4 Neurological
- 4.1 MRI
- 4.2 fMRI
- 4.3 DT-MRI
- 4.4 PET
- 4.5 CT
- 4.6 EEG
- 4.7 Pathyphysiology
- 3 Mechanisms
- which is not an improvement, and doesn't conform with MEDMOS, and there is still (as per talk page consensus) no reason to include the "neurological" heading. Consolidating the text to eliminate the rambling TOC and conform with MEDMOS will be needed; it is unusual and unhelpful to have all imaging findings spread out like this (without commenting on the text itself), and you could have proposed that text on talk. Once again, I fear at this rate that this FAR will not be productive, and the article will end up in worse shape; please work with other editors towards improvement. You've also introduced a multitude of other issues with that text, including prose and others, but I will detail those on talk unless someone else fixes them first, so as not to overburden the FAR page (as one example, this isn't a sentence, has typos, isn't linked, I'm wondering if it should be checked for copyvio, and is much too much detail for an overview article, there is much similar: "Ventricular and third ventricle enlargement, abnormal functioning of the amygdala, hippocampus, parahippocampal gyrus, neocortical temporal lobe regions, frontal lobe, prefontal gray matter, orbitofrontal areas, parietal lobs abnormalities and subcortical abnormalities including the cavum septi, pellucidi, basal ganglia, corpus callosum, thalamus and cerebellar abnormalities.") That is why editors are encouraged to discuss edits on talk, per WP:OWN#Featured articles (it is not helpful to leave an FA in a damaged state, and others will help with prose, MOS, formatting, and other Wiki guidelines if you propose changes on talk and avoid edit warring). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:33, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, this is bordering on the obscene. You tell me to go and improve the article but any edit I make is immediately reverted no matter how minor. Seriously? The accusation of OWN is justified. Basket of Puppies 02:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see WP:OWN#Featured articles, clear consensus against you on talk, and refrain from edit warring. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've become interested in this review by way of Mechanisms of schizophrenia. I just read the discussion above, and realized some things where, hopefully, I can help shed a little light, and I'll try to explain those at Talk:Schizophrenia. I also want to note here that I've posted this comment about it at WT:WikiProject Neuroscience. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rewriting sections
Have rewritten the sections on management, prognosis and epidemiology using recent review articles if people wish to comment on these. Will continue to update other sections as able.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update for Dana. Dana, several medical editors (myself included) got distracted by a medical article that appeared at In The News and resolving some of the issues on a Schizophrenia sub-article (those issues seem to be under control now). As far as I know, most of the article has been trimmed and rewritten to secondary reviews, primary sources eliminated. I haven't had time to take a detailed look yet, but I'll re-engage soon. I also plan to beg Malleus to take a look at the prose (I may or may not be successful :) If you can allow this one some additional time in the FAR phase, I think good progress has been made. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It does look like good progress has been made. I have no problem with leaving it in the FAR section for a while longer. I hope you are successful in your begging :) Might want to also ping Jappalang for a review of the images, if you think they're about right? Dana boomer (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, forgot! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I still need to focus on the bottom of the article (everything from History down). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, forgot! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reminder to self (or anyone); when the copyedit is done, wikilinking needs to be checked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Image concerns:
- File:Eugen Bleuler.jpg:
{{PD-Old}}
's assertion of the expiry of copyrights due to the 70-year passing of the work's author is incorrect; the page lists Bleuler's clinic as the author and I doubt a non-living entity can be considered "dead" in the sense of copyright laws. The source is Wehr's Collection Les Grands Suisses, whose earliest publication is 1984 in Germany.[21] The question thus arises over who is the photographer (was it given in the book, did the book say "Courtesy of/Permission by Clinique du Burghözli"); was contact attempted with the clinic? Determining the authorship would decide the proper copyright template for this work (if it is in the public domain for both US, and Germany or Switzerland). The year the photograph was first published (i.e. copies made available to the public, and not just created), if ever before 1984, also needs to be determined. File:FMRI.jpg: I am unable to see the history/state of this file when it was uploaded to Wikipedia. Generally, the medical personnel/institution holds the copyright to such images. The patient only owns a copy of the work, altough the personnel/institution would still require the patient's permission for use in publication. As such, I am uncertain if the uploader is the copyright holder (or a patient who assumes he or she has the copyright), or even if the assumption was such images are not copyrighted. Noting the low resolution, it might be probable this work came from journals such as this, or some works published several years back.[22][23][24] Seeing how Washington irving has stopped contributing since 2005 and has little file contributions of his or her own, it would be difficult to establish what profession/status the user would likely be (and might be a violation of outing too if done).Replaced by File:Schizophrenia_fMRI_working_memory.jpg, which is good. Jappalang (talk) 02:54, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]- File:Cloth embroidered by a schizophrenia sufferer.jpg: "A schizophrenic patient at the Glore Psychiatric Museum", or is it meant to be "A schizophrenic patient at the State Lunatic Asylum No. 2, converted into the Glore Psychiatric Museum in 1994"? Disregarding the surprising description, this is a photograph of a section of a cloth filled with sentences embroidered by a patient to communicate with the world. The big question is: is it art? If yes, then it would be protected by US copyright law, and consideration should be paid to the patient's right to publish the work. This has been argued at commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Cloth embroidered by a schizophrenia sufferer.jpg and closed as kept. The 1st kept is invalid (the administrator obviously missed and failed to understand the reasoning of the nomination); the 2nd is a non-admin closing by an involved !voter. The only point is Infrogmation's contention that the section is "neither a copyrightable work of art nor is enough text visible to form a copyrightable work of words." I am not so certain that a photograph of a quarter of a page of Harry Potter would also be "not enough visible text" to be copyrightable, so I would say the copyright of this work can be contentious and a second discussion might be warranted.
The other images are okay. Jappalang (talk) 03:27, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There are plenty of articles on neuroimaging and SC in PLoS One. They are free license and would be a good substitute for the fmri image.--Garrondo (talk) 19:40, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- A good example: PMID 20725639: An Event-Related fMRI Study of Phonological Verbal Working Memory in Schizophrenia.--Garrondo (talk) 19:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have finally added an fmri image from this study.--Garrondo (talk) 18:01, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- A good example: PMID 20725639: An Event-Related fMRI Study of Phonological Verbal Working Memory in Schizophrenia.--Garrondo (talk) 19:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have changed the image of Bleuler from another one which the national library of medicine believes is in the PD.--Garrondo (talk) 19:51, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There are plenty of articles on neuroimaging and SC in PLoS One. They are free license and would be a good substitute for the fmri image.--Garrondo (talk) 19:40, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Update
Malleus is mostly done with his copyedit, Cas and Doc James are looking at his prose queries, but I don't know who is going to deal with the images. Once the ce is done, I'll check wikilinking-- probably another week of work to go, but someone besides me needs to deal with images. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- At this point only lead image has problems. I have changed the other two to similar but surely free images.--Garrondo (talk) 13:37, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Can we get an update on this? It's been over two weeks since the last comment here. Should this be moved to FARC, or do the reviewers/editors think this should be kept without a FARC? Dana boomer (talk) 14:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- The criteria mentioned in the original nomination were focused mainly on comprehensiveness and referencing. Although much work has been done on the article, nothing has happened on the review page for over a month, despite a request for an update. Due to this I am moving the review into the FARC section, to hopefully get some new opinions and views. Dana boomer (talk) 15:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Do me a favor and tap my talk page when you do that. I was just browsing by chance today and noticed the gaping hole where schizophrenia and smoking should be an important facet of the article. Would love to be a part of this process. JoeSmack Talk 16:42, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- When I do what? The article has already been moved to the FARC section (hence the sectioning between "review commentary" (the FAR portion of the review) and "FARC commentary" (the FARC portion of the review). If you have comments regarding the article, please feel free to leave them here or on the article's talk page. Dana boomer (talk) 16:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Could we please get some comments here on whether the article needs more work or can be kept at this point? It has been over two weeks since this has been moved to FARC and there has been little activity... Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 14:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The lack of movement over the past month might demonstrate a lack of interest in the article. Since the article is still failing FA status I have no choice but to !vote it be demoted from FA status. Basket of Puppies 19:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Demote. I don't find the streamlining of the article an improvement. It moved the article in the direction of a psychiatrist's field guide or perhaps recovered patient leaflet. But that's not the purpose of Wikipedia. Substantive foundational discussion on the validity of the concept as a distinct disease entity, and its relation to other mental disorders has been removed in favor a DSM-current-version synopsis. The genetic section tries to impress the reader with a few randomly selected papers to conclude that more is known about the origins that it really is. The box on Nash is a bogus presentation of the story; anyone that has read the book and not just watched the movie can tell you that. Add to that Psychological vs. Neurological causes split; hello mind-body dualism, still rampant in psych medical circles (I can give you citations for this, but I'm not writing an article here.) In the past I had tried to impress these concerns upon article regulars on talk there, but WP:1LAW. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:41, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- (1) I am happy to hear which bits you were unhappy about being lost (actually I can (2) agree that genetics section lacks a caveat or other comment about the meagreness of hard genetic material to work with and its complete lack of application to actual practice (3) I haven't read the book and didn't add the photo - happy to remove if the book is substantively different (4) Psychological vs. Neurological more reflects the disciplines that investigate these phenomena. How would you subclassify this section? (5) Erm, I looked at your posts, I couldn't tell which bits you were keen on adding. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: I should add that editing this type of article can be a bit of a pendulum - swinging to and fro.. :/ Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't have some pet peeve issue that I'm trying to "get even for" or force into the article. My overall view is that the article went from too much emphasis on research issues (probably because of who wrote it or at least structured it intially--a researcher in the field it seems) to too much emphasis on bookeeping aspects. Perhaps a comparative example would help. We are informed in excruciating detail of "Residual type: Where positive symptoms are present at a low intensity only. (DSM code 295.6/ICD code F20.5)" and similar. Do you really think that info is of general interest compared to, say, a sentence on whether current genetic tests have predictive power or not? (I'm bringing this one up because someone tried to add some biased info on a blood test to the article at some point.) I see that NIMH has a brochure on schizophrenia. Some idea of what topics are of general interest can probably be gleaned form there. (But that doesn't mean everything else is out.)
- I for one enjoyed the previous incarnation of article because it was more of a science magazine article; it was more elaborate on what is known, what is not, and what is uncertain about schizophrenia. Whether an article is FA-quality or not has a large element of WP:ILIKEIT compared to deletion discussion and similar minimal-standards venues like DYK. It can be hard for a Wikipedia article to be all things to all men, e.g. we ended up with 4 (four) Boolean algebra articles (not counting the proper sub-articles); I've been keeping myself busy with fixing that for a while now. Undoubtedly, deciding what shoud be up-front is not easy in a vast topic.
- --Tijfo098 (talk) 15:27, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, it seems that the DSM-5 workgroup has proposed to remove the subtypes, so they are probably useless even to specialists [25] [26] (By the way DSM-5 'rationale' page for any disorder--you have to click on it, there's no direct way to link that I know of--usually has up to date research reviews commissioned for the workgroup.) The proposed changes are certainly covered in news publications aimed at your profession. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There are clouds about DSM 5. I knew about the ditching of subtypes, but you do see them discussed clinically. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- So, do we all agree that this article truly fails FA status and is in need of serious work to achieve that level in the future? Basket of Puppies 16:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep The concerns which brought this article to FAR have been addressed. Thus think we should keep it. I do not understand the concerns raised above. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that problems have been addressed. Secondary sources are now used and many sections have been summarized. Keep.--Garrondo (talk) 20:17, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I think I'm being too prickly here. Although I liked the emphasis the article had before better, this is still one of the best articles on mental disorders in Wikipedia, even though it can still be improved without blowing up its size. And, BoP, I remotely sympathize with what you're saying, but the level of detail you want on the neurology aspects is not appropriate for the main article. I suggest you start a sub-article: Neurology of schizophrenia--there's at least one book, ISBN 0198525966, so plenty of material. Consider that the genetic section is about half the size of the neurology one, and there is a ton of research in that area as well. (In fact, my objection to the genetic section was that the selection of topics seems haphazard to an extent. It's largely cited from a rather obscure journal, Int. J. Drug Policy, and the paper is not a review of the genetics of schizophrenia either. Anyway, this can be fixed without much fuss. At least for the overlap with bipolar doi:10.1192/bjp.bp.109.073429 is a better cite (changed this one myself); someone clicking on the footnote should find a substantive discussion instead of an article about cannabis and schizophrenia.) Tijfo098 (talk) 21:13, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Reference consistency: current article use is ~84 {{vcite journal}} and ~12 {{cite journal}}, a couple of the latter are using last1/first1 authors rather than Diberri format. I assume it would be appropriate to move those 12 to {{vcite journal}} and Diberri format authors to use the majority style throughout. I'll do this in a couple of days unless anybody has a reason not to. Thanks Rjwilmsi 20:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- yes! If anyone can do these, I'd be greatful as my time is limited but I might try to get to this later today. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:27, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, the further reading section could use some attention; the choice of books there is a bit odd. Plenty of general books on it, e.g. ISBN 1405176970 (3rd ed.) -- added this myself -- that cover it much greater depth that it's possible in the wiki article. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I generally hate these sections due to the subjective and possibly somewhat nebulous way that texts are added. Do we really lose anything by deleting the section? Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:27, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have moved the section to the talk page of the article. --Garrondo (talk) 07:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree that this is a good solution. The MOS allows for it WP:FURTHER, and for a vast topic like this it seems warranted. If you remove that, why have any external links then? It's not that DMOZ might not have some nebulous information. I'd wager it's far more nebulous than a monograph whose chapters are authored by various authorities in their areas. Tijfo098 (talk) 07:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have moved the section to the talk page of the article. --Garrondo (talk) 07:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I generally hate these sections due to the subjective and possibly somewhat nebulous way that texts are added. Do we really lose anything by deleting the section? Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:27, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Someone please fix or clarify this: "A common side effect associated with schizo-affective patients, known as akathisia (mistaken for schizophrenic symptoms), was found to be associated with increased levels of norepinephrine." A side effect is normally associated with a medication (not patients), but presumably that is saying that schizo-affective patients are more likely to show it? Also, does it have anything to do with the previous sentence, which speaks of glutamatergic medication? If not it should be moved elsewhere. Tijfo098 (talk) 23:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- good catch - the sentence incorrectly interprets source (the emphasis is all funny) - which is old age psychiatry anyway, and should be (and is already) mentioned in medication (side effects). akithisia is an extrapyramidal side effect, the latter being mentioned and bluelinked in the medication section. I've never heard any specific relevance of akithisia and schizoaffective disorder Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Does anyone find The Eden Express even notable? I have the impression it is linked there to promote orthomolecular psychiatry. Besides MV self-diagnosed himself as bipolar later, and being a physician we could extend him some benefit of the doubt in that respect. It's probably best to leave it for the article on psychosis. Tijfo098 (talk) 00:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. I think there are more notable personal sources to add before this one. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments? Should this article be kept, or are further improvements still needed? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- (sigh) I think for all the main/deal-breaker type points we can get consensus on, it is in keep territory. There was something I meant to look up which I have forgotten. I'll read over again but it is minor I recall. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:18, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've just had more friends at the university (who also specialize in schizophrenia) look over the article and we all agree it's terrible. At most it's a C-class article. I am not being sarcastic or using hyperbole. Basket of Puppies 13:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- After your participation on this page, I personally find it hard to take your comments without a grain of salt, but I will leave that up to the closer. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:02, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You and they are free to come forwards with main stream review articles... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no problem coming up with that, see ISBN 0198525966, OUP 2004; the problem is BoP wants too much detail of that kind in this overview article. Tijfo098 (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In the context of a general text on schizophrenia, e.g. ISBN 1405176970, that's 2-3 chapters out of 30. Tijfo098 (talk) 18:30, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You and they are free to come forwards with main stream review articles... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- After your participation on this page, I personally find it hard to take your comments without a grain of salt, but I will leave that up to the closer. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:02, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've just had more friends at the university (who also specialize in schizophrenia) look over the article and we all agree it's terrible. At most it's a C-class article. I am not being sarcastic or using hyperbole. Basket of Puppies 13:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This is very clearly one of the best articles that wikipedia has on any mental disorder, and fully meets the FA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 15:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I think the substantive concerns have pretty much been addressed. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Overall the article is fine. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:40, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Demote to C-class article, maybe B-class if the glaring errors and vast amounts of missing information can be filled in. Might be up for GA assessment after a few more months of work. Basket of Puppies 19:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- How much do you understand about article grading? Anything? Malleus Fatuorum 19:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We will have to agree to disagree. I've already said that schizophrenia is my area of research- I spend day and night on it. This article represents the knowledge of schizophrenia from the mid-1990s, at best. The artice still introduces schizophrenia as a mental health problem, which is absolutely no longer the case. Much like Alzheimers would never be considered mental health, schizophrenia is the same. Each is due to very specific underlying brain pathologies, not abstract psychological issues. I realize I will not prevail in convincing my fellow editors that this article is in horrific shape and not at all worthy of the FA status, but it doesn't mean I won't be silent on the issue and civilly share my opinion. Basket of Puppies 20:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You may say whatever you like, as often as you like, but it doesn't make you "right". What, if anything, do you understand about how articles are graded here on wikipedia? To me it seems like you understand nothing, and are just being disruptive. Malleus Fatuorum 20:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please assume good faith. I am disrupting nothing. I have said my part without any personal accusations (I count two against me) and will detach from this. Just be aware that universities as viewing this article as a testament as to why Wikipedia continues to be unreliable. Basket of Puppies 20:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't give me your AGF guff, it doesn't wash with me. I see what I see. Malleus Fatuorum 20:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- " The artice still introduces schizophrenia as a mental health problem, which is absolutely no longer the case." - ???...erm, BoP, Have you ever visited or had contact any mental health services and seen how they work? Community health centres? Psychiatric wards, read mental health policy documents, etc. Are you aware of how much removed from reality that comment is? Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- SZ may be treated by psychiatrists but the underlying issue is most certainly not an abstract psychological issue. That is quite clearly the scientific consensus. Basket of Puppies 21:54, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oen your eyes. Currently the clinical impact of all the gene testing, mapping and scanning and various neurobiological research - in all the thousands of patients, psychiatric wards and outpatient units is zero. What has helped is medication (a very imprecise art) and more psychological approachesCasliber (talk · contribs) 22:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not dispute this in the slightest. Clinical treatment is done by psychiatrists. However, the underlying issue is neurological, not abstract psychological. Just like you cannot talk to someone out of a broken leg you cannot talk to someone out of being schizophrenic. Psychiatric medication does not end SZ nor does it prevent it. The "cure", if there ever is one, is to fix the underlying neurological pathologies. Don't you agree? Basket of Puppies 22:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Unlike you I actually have worked in mental health institutions, as a psychologist. I'm not still learning the job though, as you and your university friends clearly are. Malleus Fatuorum 22:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You are incorrect. I have an MA in Mental Health Counseling. I also have an MS in neurobiology and do SZ research full time. I am not "still learning", nor do I appreciate your second personal statement. Basket of Puppies 23:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid that if you're trying to impress me with a soft qualification in "mental health counselling" then you're in the wrong shop. Malleus Fatuorum 23:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Enough with the appeal to authority, ok? I am off for the weekend. Shabbat Shalom.
- I'm not the one claiming to be an authority on anything, that would be you Basket of Puppies. Malleus Fatuorum 23:47, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Enough with the appeal to authority, ok? I am off for the weekend. Shabbat Shalom.
- I'm afraid that if you're trying to impress me with a soft qualification in "mental health counselling" then you're in the wrong shop. Malleus Fatuorum 23:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You are incorrect. I have an MA in Mental Health Counseling. I also have an MS in neurobiology and do SZ research full time. I am not "still learning", nor do I appreciate your second personal statement. Basket of Puppies 23:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- @BoP - when discussing chronic disease we talk of management, rehabilitation and improvement of function. One sees the range of responses. Yes, there are those who have intractable symptoms but, medication and the talking therapies benefit a great many people who are able hold down jobs and have relationships. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing this further here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Then this article should be retitled "Treatment of Schizophrenia", as that is the model you are following. You must realize that treatment of a disease by a certain modality does not imply causation by the same. Schizophrenia is in the same category of Alzheimers. Each cause mental health issues but neither is a psychological issue, rather they are each neurological issues. I am curious why you are unwilling to accept this. Basket of Puppies 23:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- No, we should not rename it as it covers core/consensus material on history, causation, phenomenology and epidemiology. Wikipedia reflects common usage of terms and classification not pushes a new view. You need to drop this BoP. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We will have to agree to disagree and there is nothing wrong with that. Have a great weekend! :) Basket of Puppies 01:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- No, we should not rename it as it covers core/consensus material on history, causation, phenomenology and epidemiology. Wikipedia reflects common usage of terms and classification not pushes a new view. You need to drop this BoP. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Then this article should be retitled "Treatment of Schizophrenia", as that is the model you are following. You must realize that treatment of a disease by a certain modality does not imply causation by the same. Schizophrenia is in the same category of Alzheimers. Each cause mental health issues but neither is a psychological issue, rather they are each neurological issues. I am curious why you are unwilling to accept this. Basket of Puppies 23:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Unlike you I actually have worked in mental health institutions, as a psychologist. I'm not still learning the job though, as you and your university friends clearly are. Malleus Fatuorum 22:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not dispute this in the slightest. Clinical treatment is done by psychiatrists. However, the underlying issue is neurological, not abstract psychological. Just like you cannot talk to someone out of a broken leg you cannot talk to someone out of being schizophrenic. Psychiatric medication does not end SZ nor does it prevent it. The "cure", if there ever is one, is to fix the underlying neurological pathologies. Don't you agree? Basket of Puppies 22:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oen your eyes. Currently the clinical impact of all the gene testing, mapping and scanning and various neurobiological research - in all the thousands of patients, psychiatric wards and outpatient units is zero. What has helped is medication (a very imprecise art) and more psychological approachesCasliber (talk · contribs) 22:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- SZ may be treated by psychiatrists but the underlying issue is most certainly not an abstract psychological issue. That is quite clearly the scientific consensus. Basket of Puppies 21:54, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please assume good faith. I am disrupting nothing. I have said my part without any personal accusations (I count two against me) and will detach from this. Just be aware that universities as viewing this article as a testament as to why Wikipedia continues to be unreliable. Basket of Puppies 20:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You may say whatever you like, as often as you like, but it doesn't make you "right". What, if anything, do you understand about how articles are graded here on wikipedia? To me it seems like you understand nothing, and are just being disruptive. Malleus Fatuorum 20:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We will have to agree to disagree. I've already said that schizophrenia is my area of research- I spend day and night on it. This article represents the knowledge of schizophrenia from the mid-1990s, at best. The artice still introduces schizophrenia as a mental health problem, which is absolutely no longer the case. Much like Alzheimers would never be considered mental health, schizophrenia is the same. Each is due to very specific underlying brain pathologies, not abstract psychological issues. I realize I will not prevail in convincing my fellow editors that this article is in horrific shape and not at all worthy of the FA status, but it doesn't mean I won't be silent on the issue and civilly share my opinion. Basket of Puppies 20:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you point out any errors (of commission rather than omission) left in the article? Tijfo098 (talk) 02:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- How much do you understand about article grading? Anything? Malleus Fatuorum 19:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- We on the ground are still waiting for the ivory tower cures to come down to us :-) We need to keep this article real. There is no cure. There is some treatment. All this fancy stuff of genetic testing and fMRI is not used clinically at this point. What is proposed belongs in the section at the end on research if at all.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 13:23, 13 July 2011 [27].
Review commentary
- Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers, User talk:Mindspillage, User talk:Huntdw, User talk:Missmarple.
FA from 2005, has some referencing issues throughout, including 1c issues. Notice posted to talk page over one month ago diff link, but no response. Pictures in article could use image review. There are some short paragraphs, one or two-sentence-long paragraphs. The lede/intro could be expanded a bit more. Could use overall copyediting throughout. -- Cirt (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Done? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good efforts so far, thanks. Good still use a significant bit of improvements. -- Cirt (talk) 04:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay. Could you be a bit more specific? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:50, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Problems with inadequate sourcing that fails WP:RS
- Liane Curtis - these sources are inadequate and fail WP:RS.
- The information sourced to these references should be removed.
- In certain places, this even violates WP:NOR, see for example the cite that says, "Liane Curtis, personal correspondence, May 2005." ???
- In multiple instances, these cites also fail WP:V.
-- Cirt (talk) 19:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To clarify: all sources by Liane Curtis, or only certain ones? It would seem to me that the Grove entry and the Musical Times article obviously meet WP:RS, and that the program notes may be acceptable. Also, regarding the fact tag added here: one cannot prove (or likely cite) a negative, despite its veracity. I'll look for a source supporting the other disputed fact. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly, if one cannot prove a negative, that is a violation of WP:NOR to include it in the article. Especially so, for the high standards of FA articles. -- Cirt (talk) 20:03, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments from Voceditenore
- Referencing. I see that all previous cites to "personal correspondance" have been removed. I'm not sure what the problem is with the other works by Liane Curtis as reliable sources. They seem fine to me, especially the Grove article which is extensive. However, the citation style needs improvement in my view. Firstly, it should be consistently "last name first" for the authors and when printed sources are cited, the exact page number should be given, not simply a cite to the entire book or article. Also, the entire Rebecca Clarke Reader is available in full view at Google Books [28], which probably wasn't available when the WP article was first written . It has articles by three other musicologists besides Curtis, as well as other previously published interviews and articles by Clarke herself. This would considerably help the referencing. This book by a fifth musicologist also has a lot of material. As for the two remaining statements with {{fact}} tags. The bilingual assertion can simply be removed, it's a very minor point. The other about "...large-scale pieces such as symphonies, which she never attempted to write." can be revised to something like:
"There are no large scale works such as symphonies in her total output of compositions (52 songs, 11 choral works, 21 chamber pieces, the Piano Trio, and the Viola Sonata)." (verifiable via the Grove or here (p. 91).
- Writing style. I haven't looked at the rest yet, but the section on the Rebecca Clarke Society needs a major copyedit. It reads a bit to much like a blurb, and "put out" instead of "published" or "made available" is infelicitous, as is:
"Due to copyright clearance problems, the book was withdrawn from circulation by the press due to the author's belief in her freedom to use music examples against the complaints of the copyright holders."
There are other places in the article with weasel words which need addressing (see also Lede below), e.g. "her father's disapproval of her musical ambitions as well as his harsh treatment of her and her three siblings are speculated to have influenced her compositional career." Speculated by whom? This needs rewording to reflect who speculates this or has reported the speculation—not simply a footnote. Another instance is "Perhaps the greatest barrier to composition was..."
- Lede. Needs considerable expansion to include the essential facts of her life, not just her importance. Also, expressions like "is considered by one commentator to be" should be avoided. Better to state in in the article itself who said it, e.g.
- "Described by musicologist Liane Curtis in the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians as one of the most important British composers in the period between World War I and World War II, Clarke...."
- Images. Need review. I'm concerned at the documentation for them on Commons, e.g. "Personal correspondence with the Rebecca Clarke Society asserts that the copyright holder of this image no longer exercises those rights." For one thing, there is no indication who the copyright holder is or was, and the personal correspondance really needs to be on record via an OTRS ticket. Another one which is copyright 1919, doesn't qualify unless there is proof it was actually published before 1923, not simply taken or copyrighted before then. I suggest asking User:Elcobbola or User:Jappalang to review them. In any case, the article could use a greater variety of images instead of three of her. You could get away with just one, under "fair use" if necessary. Also, the images need alt text.
- Recordings. This would be useful to include, since her music has been rarely recorded until recently. There are a lot of reviews from Gramophone available: [29]
Voceditenore (talk) 14:34, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Quick note - per WP:WIAFA, featured articles no longer need alt text. Editors are welcome to provide it if they wish, but it is not a criteria for featured article status. Dana boomer (talk) 14:32, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Could we get an update on this? How is work going, and do the commenting editors think this could be kept without going to FARC? Dana boomer (talk) 13:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been copy-editing and working on referencing. I think I've fixed the image issues too. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Nikki, I'm not sure from this comment if you feel that you've finished your work on the article or not. If so, please feel free to ping the editors who commented above to come back and take another look (or let me know and I will). Thanks for all your work on this, Dana boomer (talk) 14:49, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been copy-editing and working on referencing. I think I've fixed the image issues too. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Followup, problems with sourcing
- I have tagged some additional problems with sourcing with {{fact}} tags.
- Newsletter of the Rebecca Clarke Society = this seems to be a primary source, how can one obtain it? Is it verifiable? Is this straying too close to WP:NOR violation for a Featured Article?
- The same problem could be said for program notes to Clarke's Sonata for Viola and Piano.
Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 20:08, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Cirt. I've removed one of the fact-tagged assertions. I will disagree with you on the NOR/primary source issue, as I don't believe either of the sources you mention are problematic in the way that they are used. Both were written by Clarke scholars. The newsletter is a publication put out by the Rebecca Clarke Society, which as the article mentions is concerned with studying Clarke's music. One subscribes to it in the same way that one would a traditional print journal. Both sources are IMO verifiable and not OR; can you expand on your reasons for believing otherwise? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Do libraries subscribe to these? Or does one have to pay individually to obtain back issues? -- Cirt (talk) 20:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Some libraries subscribe to this newsletter, although given that it's fairly specialized there aren't many that do. As for the program notes, there's no such thing as "back issues" - it's not a serial source. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:32, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I would like to hear further thoughts on these issues by Voceditenore. -- Cirt (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please note that WP:VERIFY says nothing about sources being easily verifiable, just that they be verifiable. If the newsletters are available to the public in any form (through purchase from the society, held in even one library, etc), then they are verifiable sources. Same with the program notes. Dana boomer (talk) 01:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I would like to hear further thoughts on these issues by Voceditenore. -- Cirt (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Some libraries subscribe to this newsletter, although given that it's fairly specialized there aren't many that do. As for the program notes, there's no such thing as "back issues" - it's not a serial source. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:32, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Do libraries subscribe to these? Or does one have to pay individually to obtain back issues? -- Cirt (talk) 20:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment re sources At the moment, I'm just commenting on the sourcing issues raised by Cirt, with which I disagree quite strongly. The Newsletters are available online for free here, including the article cited "When Virginia Woolf met Rebecca Clarke". The Newsletters are also held in the New York Public Library and the Brandeis University Library. [30]. As per Dana boomer, subscription access or requirement to physically visit a library is not at all an impediment to something being a reliable source, or the material it contains adequately verifying facts in an article. But this is not even the case here, and I cannot see how this would remotely approach original research. These articles (and program/liner notes) are public third party sources by respected musicologists and musicians. See for example Schleifer, Martha Furman at WorldCat and Liane Curtis (who wrote the Clarke entry in the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians) here and [31]. Likewise the recording Rebecca Clarke: Midsummer Moon with liner notes by Michael Ponder (who also wrote her entry in Oxford Dictionary of National Biography) is held in 53 libraries [32] and the program notes by Schleifer which accompany the score for Sonata for Viola and Piano are held in 138 libraries [33]. Voceditenore (talk) 09:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: File:ClarkeViola.jpg is okay. File:1917Program.jpg has the wrong template for copyright, and is incorrectly dated (1918, not 1917). I have corrected the copyright template, sourced the date, and put in a request to rename the file to some more useful title. Jappalang (talk) 12:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I thank Voceditenore (talk · contribs) very much for the detailed source analysis. I defer to the rational and sound judgment of Voceditenore. ;) Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 19:58, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Can the reviewing editors (Cirt, Voceditenore, etc), please comment on whether they think the article should retain featured status as it stands now? If so, we don't need to move to the FARC stage. Dana boomer (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I still see a paragraph that is one-sentence-long.
- I see another paragraph that is two-sentences-long.
- There is still one remaining citation needed tag that is unaddressed.
-- Cirt (talk) 03:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Should now all be addressed. Thanks, Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Better, thanks. -- Cirt (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note - article has been moved to Rebecca Clarke (composer). I have no idea what, if anything, needs to happen at this page to reflect that, so I'm mentioning it so those more knowledgeable than I may take appropriate action. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some general review comments, as requested
- Lead
- This in my view falls short of the requirements of lead sections as determined by WP:LEAD. In particular:-
- The lead is not a complete summary of the main text of the article.
- It contains material that is not covered in the body of the article, namely (1) the description by Liane Curtis ("one of the most important composers..." etc and (2) "Clarke has also been called the most distinguished British female composer of her generation".
- "See below" directives are unnecessary in the lead; it is assumed that lead statements are amplified in the text.
- Statements which are cited in the text do not need to be cited in the lead (the revival of interest after Clarke's 90th birthday)
- Early life section
The section is rather superficial, e.g. no mention of any compositions before 1916, yet the List of compositions shows that before 1914 she had written several dozen songs, choral pieces, a couple of violin sonatas and numerous viola pieces. And the first paragraph of the section lacks any date information. When did Clarke go to the RAM? When was she at RCM? When did she study with Tertis, and when did she join the Queen's Hall orchestra? Without any dates we cannot get any clear indication of the progress of her life. Far too much space is given to a single piece, the 1919 viola sonata. The section is headed "Early life", yet it ends with her apparently past her peak as a composer.
- Later life and marriage
The previous section ended in 1923, and now we jump forward nearly 20 years. The List of compositions shows at least 20 more pieces composed in this period, so Clarke was not as inactive as the text implies. In all, this section is far too brief a summary of nearly 40 years of life. It is very hard, on this basis, to sustain the view that Clarke was indeed "one of the most important British composers in the period between World War I and World War II".
- Music
This section is much stronger than those that precede it. I don't know Clarke's music, so I can't comment on the substance. The tone at times is weaselly ("a striking example") and phrasing such as "the very next year" is somewhat non-encyclopedic. I don't have time for a copyedit, but there is some clumsy phrasing, e.g. "she has begun coming back into public awareness"
I appreciate that a difficulty with the biographical sections is lack of source material, but I feel more could be done with what is available. By comparison with other composer articles, I don't think that this is of featured standard at present.
Brianboulton (talk) 23:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- The criteria mentioned in the original nomination focused mainly on referencing and prose. Although much work has been completed on the article, the reviewing editors seem wary of stating that the article should be kept without a FARC. Due to this, I am moving the article into the FARC section, to hopefully spur more reviewers to add commentary and come to a final consensus. Dana boomer (talk) 15:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - a nice succinct little article. Prose is good. I removed one POV adjective, "abusive" father is mentioned early on without any supporting material (until right at the end). I am in two minds here - personally I'd be more inclusive of some early biographical material on this issue, especially if in the biography Clarke reports that it shaped her composing or performing in some way, but others might have a different view and I can see there is latitude for personal preference here. I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment authoritatively on the comprehensiveness, and will defer to others, but I am leaning towards keeping this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 18:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: I just noted the above. If there are RS covering material of concern noted by Brian above, then agree it needs be added. We just need someone who knows whether this is available....Casliber (talk · contribs) 18:45, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment There is a reliable source for much of the missing material that Brian noted. The Rebecca Clark Reader is available in full view at Google books here, with multiple articles by musicologists and several annotated interviews, and much more biographical information than is currently in the article. I pointed out this source in my comments above during the FAR, and I'm suprised that it hasn't been used yet. Voceditenore (talk) 19:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added many of the details Brian requested using that source. However, it's not available in full view in my geographic location. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The article is in better shape than it was, largely due to Nikki's editing, but I would still say it is short of FA standard. For instance:-
- Unexplained paranthetical Friskin looks odd in the lead. If she was professionally known as Clarke there is no need for this
- Was she literally "kicked out of the house"? The language seems a little informal.
- A concern I expressed previously was about the length of the period covered in the so-called "Early life" section. My point remains; the section runs to 1931 when Clarke was 45. This is not early life. The section should be split after the second paragraph
- A biog of a British person should have uniform British spelling. ("criticized", "neighbor" etc)
- the formulation "patron of the arts Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge..." is poor style and should not be used; a person's description is not their title. You would not normally say, for example, "Grocer Jim Brown" or "Painter and decorator Bob Smith". I suggest something like: "sponsored by Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge, a patron of the arts who was Clarke's neighbour".
- Was "Helferich" her middle name? It seems to have neen dropped.
Brianboulton (talk) 00:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Helferich was her middle name and Friskin was her married name, but she was known professionally almost exclusively as Rebecca Clarke. I think I've addressed your other points. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:49, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- My points have I think been fully addressed, and other than nitpicks there seems little else to be done. Well done, those who worked to rescue this article and bring it up to standard; I am happy to register a keep. Brianboulton (talk) 15:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Helferich was her middle name and Friskin was her married name, but she was known professionally almost exclusively as Rebecca Clarke. I think I've addressed your other points. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:49, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, essentially per comments by Casliber (talk · contribs), above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 16:06, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I'm commenting here in response to this request. I'm not sure that this is up to today's FA criteria, even now. I have limited experience with the FA process, but am basing this on other FAs on similar topics. My overall impression is that the prose is still clumsy in places, some of the coverage is skimpy and/or confusing, and there's an awful lot of overlinking. I've given some examples/suggestions below. However, the improvements to the article have been piecemeal and done in reaction to various previous comments from reviewers rather than with an overall plan and vision. It's much improved, but it still lacks flow and consistency because of this.
- "Examples of recent publications include two string quartets and one composition published in 2002, a short, lyrical piece for viola and piano entitled Morpheus, the latter composed under the pseudonym of "Anthony Trent". Reviews of the concert praised the "Trent", largely ignoring the works credited to Clarke."
What concert? When? I was only able to figure this out from the caption under the image of the 1918 programme. And shouldn't this, with more about the use of this pseudonym, go in the Early life section, rather than an aside in the discusion of recent publication of her works?
- "Examples of recent publications include two string quartets and one composition published in 2002, a short, lyrical piece for viola and piano entitled Morpheus, the latter composed under the pseudonym of "Anthony Trent". Reviews of the concert praised the "Trent", largely ignoring the works credited to Clarke."
- Re the Early life section. Shouldn't we be told that her father was from Boston and her mother was German. It might make more sense out of "She made the first of many visits to the United States shortly after leaving the Royal Academy.". A 19 year-old English girl bopping off to the US in 1905 (on her own?) is somewhat unusual unless she had family connections there. There needs to be more of narrative in this section.
- "Having been put out of the family home without funds by her father for criticising his extramarital affairs, Clarke supported herself through her viola playing after leaving the Royal College, and moved to the United States in 1916 to perform."
Apart from being overly long, this is confusing and leaves out the fact that her father refused to fund her tuition at the Royal College. Is that why she "left" without finishing? Or did she in fact finish by supporting herself and paying her own tuition? According to this source, it was the former. Break that sentence up and clarify. Also avoid the passive, e.g. "Having been put out of the house...". Suggest, "Following her criticism of his extra-marital affairs, Clarke's father turned her out of the house and cut off her funds. She had to leave the Royal College in 1910 and supported herself through her viola playing. In 1916 she moved to the United States to continue her performing career."
- "Having been put out of the family home without funds by her father for criticising his extramarital affairs, Clarke supported herself through her viola playing after leaving the Royal College, and moved to the United States in 1916 to perform."
- Surely there must be more to say about her husband, James Friskin, and their relationship than one short sentence, plus allusions elsewhere to her views on a married woman's role? How did they meet? How long was the "courtship"? Was the marriage a happy one? When did he die? Again, the Later life section lacks a narrative
- "Clarke's views on the social role of women—herself in particular—were incompatible with any ambition to compose music in the larger forms. There are no large scale works such as symphonies in her total output..."
According to whom? There could be other reasons for the lack of large scale works. Unless this is a musicologist's considered opinion (which should be credited), it's a fudge.
- "Clarke's views on the social role of women—herself in particular—were incompatible with any ambition to compose music in the larger forms. There are no large scale works such as symphonies in her total output..."
- There's way too much linking of common words, a minor point perhaps but it really detracts from the article, e.g. birthday, printed, heirs, cremated. And how relevant is it that she was cremated without any further information as to where her ashes were placed or whether it was her specific wish that she be cremated?
- "The Rebecca Clarke Society was established in September 2000 to promote performance, scholarship, and awareness of the works of Rebecca Clarke. Founded by musicologists Liane Curtis and Jessie Ann Owens and based out of the Women's Studies Research Center at Brandeis, the Society has pushed forward recording and scholarship of her work, including several world premiere performances and recordings of unpublished material as well as numerous journal publications."
This whole bit needs a re-write. It's clumsy and repetitious, and "pushed forward" is a rather odd turn of phrase.
- "The Rebecca Clarke Society was established in September 2000 to promote performance, scholarship, and awareness of the works of Rebecca Clarke. Founded by musicologists Liane Curtis and Jessie Ann Owens and based out of the Women's Studies Research Center at Brandeis, the Society has pushed forward recording and scholarship of her work, including several world premiere performances and recordings of unpublished material as well as numerous journal publications."
- "The head of the Rebecca Clarke Society, Liane Curtis, is the editor of A Rebecca Clarke Reader, published by Indiana University Press in 2004. The book was withdrawn from circulation by the press due to the author's belief in her freedom to use music examples against the complaints of the copyright holders."
This doesn't make sense. The publishers ("press" is ambiguous) withdrew the book not because of Curtis's belief but because of the copyright holder's complaints.
- "The head of the Rebecca Clarke Society, Liane Curtis, is the editor of A Rebecca Clarke Reader, published by Indiana University Press in 2004. The book was withdrawn from circulation by the press due to the author's belief in her freedom to use music examples against the complaints of the copyright holders."
- The coverage about recordings of her music could use some elaboration since her music has been rarely recorded until recently. There are reviews from Gramophone available: [34] and they can give an insight into modern reception of her work. I would have thought this would be pretty important to this article, but it's lacking at the moment.Voceditenore (talk) 16:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I also forgot the lede. It's still way too short and lacks the essential facts about her life. i.e. that she lived in the US for a large part of her life, who she married, and where she died.
– Voceditenore (talk) 16:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of these points have now been addressed. Changes have been made in response to the review because I'm not the original author of the article, and had never heard of Clarke before this review started, so any further suggestions you have would be helpful. Very little information about her relationship with Friskin is available, or about her wishes for her body (though I would argue that the cremation is relevant). Nikkimaria (talk) 17:38, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've done some further copyediting thoughout, expanded the lede, and expanded her biography with more information, i.e., her affair with John Goss, how she met her husband (James Friskin), and the nature of their relationship. Curtis's 1996 article "A Case of Identity" was actually crucial for this and is freely available online. This also involved some changes in the "direction" of content. Curtis makes it clear that her husband had actually encouraged Clarke to continue composing and to try more large scale works. Also, the quote "I can't do it unless it's the first thing I think of every morning when I wake and the last thing I think of every night before I go to sleep." referred to a period several years before she was married, and as such does not support the inference that "Clarke did not consider herself able to balance family life and composition." She was referring in general to her life-long difficulty in balancing a personal life and a composer's life. Anyhow, I'd support a Keep now, although the it might be a good idea to make one last pass through the references to check for formatting consistency. Voceditenore (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 14:21, 10 May 2011 [35].
Review commentary
- Notified: PDH, UtherSRG, Graham87, Wikiproject Australia, Wikiproject Mammals
I am nominating this featured article for review because I believe this article no longer represents Wikipedia's best work. Since 2005, there have been significant developments in the literature on devil facial tumour disease, a significant threat to the Tassie Devils. However, these developments are not represented in the article at FA-level prose. (1a) There has also been an adult non-fiction book about the Tassie Devils published in 2005 which would be help the article be better researched. (1c) It is co-authored by "the Program Leader for Wildlife Conservation within the Department of Primary Industries and Water". David Owen is a difficult name to search for, but the book has been favourably reviewed by New Scientist, so it should pass WP:RS. The summary style is improper between the daughter article and the main article, and it perhaps places too much weight on the disease, given that there is a whole article devoted to the disease. (4) I've merged the material over to the daughter article but am hesitant to create a summary at the main article. Would appreciate any comments. --Malkinann (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - yes, needs some work definitely (formatting --> straightforward, but comprehensiveness --> more of a challenge). That book would be good to get to look at, and hopefully we can move it from further reading section to a references section soon enough. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Bilby's uni has the book in digital version. Hopefully he can download it and hand it around. Owen also wrote an analogous book for Thylacine which is another old FA. Hopefully at worst the book is not one of those readable things that you can't save or cut and paste YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 03:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment – What needs expanding, ect. Aaroncrick TALK 07:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Personally, I know nothing but I can't see any honest justification for 16k prose when a whole book is available and the thing is much more famous than the Green and Golden Bell Frog YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 07:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The behaviour and ecology section concerns me the most. --Malkinann (talk) 09:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- yep, don't wanna add garbage, though. I'm sure there would be plenty of folk to help out. Aaroncrick TALK 10:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Where are they?? :( YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- yep, don't wanna add garbage, though. I'm sure there would be plenty of folk to help out. Aaroncrick TALK 10:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, threats to the TD which aren't DFTD. --Malkinann (talk) 23:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Such as the problem with foxes... Aaroncrick TALK 23:37, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm also getting the impression that because they're scavengers, the TDs go for roadkill, and end up as roadkill themselves. --Malkinann (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Such as the problem with foxes... Aaroncrick TALK 23:37, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Would an 'in captivity' section be helpful? --Malkinann (talk) 00:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Have tagged up the article based on this discussion. Hopefully this will act as an aide-de-memoir and draw attention to the FAR, rather than being taken as a WP:TAGBOMB. --Malkinann (talk) 01:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Apparently when the TD was extinct on the mainland has a few competing theories/is discussed in the literature. Also needs more on the TD's ancestry. --Malkinann (talk) 22:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Some short-paragraphs and one-sentence-long-paragraphs in the lede/intro of the article - per WP:LEAD, these should be expanded or merged, in fact, the whole lede/intro size should be expanded upon a bit more. There are some referencing issues, and also short paragraphs and one-sentence-long-paragraphs, in the article body text itself as well. I know the Looney Tunes bit should not be a significant chunk relative to the total size of the article, but perhaps this could be expanded upon a wee bit more, perhaps two more sentences on this, and other instances in popular culture. -- Cirt (talk) 16:55, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with all this - by the time we've finished with it I expect the article will have doubled in size, so a couple of more sentences on Taz will be fine. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I found the Owen/Pemberton book rather annoying as it is almost all random anecdotes and some fluff, and the random specimens it discusses could just be outliers and the like YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with all this - by the time we've finished with it I expect the article will have doubled in size, so a couple of more sentences on Taz will be fine. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: See MOS:CAPTION regarding period usage. No other criterion three concerns. Эlcobbola talk 15:03, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Status I think we need to write down what's missing YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the article still needs:
- More on the genetics, in general
- also, showing that there are two distinct populations of TDs and why the lit. thinks this is so.
- More on the home range.
- More on the social network.
- Have we covered enough of early settlers' impressions of the devil? Could we use a sketch to convey something about this?
- Also, we don't have any pictures of older, fatter, devils in the article - only young, cuter, devils are represented, which is probably a bad thing, but possibly not a concern for FA?
- The DFTD section still needs a rewrite. I've been improving the daughter article a bit in anticipation of this.
- Evolution of the devil, treeclimbing ancestor.
- More on how they move around an area/disperse.
- For wiki-issues, the article needs a reshuffle, rationalisation of the section names, and a copyedit/refcleanup. There's no such thing as a MOS for animals?
- More on the genetics, in general
- You've done some great work thus far on the article, I'm amazed by how far it's come. :) --Malkinann (talk) 21:21, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Damn, I feel spent YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:27, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we need more people pitching in, else we won't get anywhere. The article won't die if it gets to 50k, it's about 40 atm. But everyone has the pdf of the book, so what's the matter? :( YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Take a look at the article as it was just prior to FAR - it's improved tremendously. It could be the time of year that everyone's busy? --Malkinann (talk) 07:07, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we need more people pitching in, else we won't get anywhere. The article won't die if it gets to 50k, it's about 40 atm. But everyone has the pdf of the book, so what's the matter? :( YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Damn, I feel spent YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:27, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, sorry I haven't been much use so far. I am actually in a good position to prioritise working on this wiki-wise curently, just have no idea how much free time I actually have at present (much to do...). Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update - I am reorganising into subsections like many other biology FAs. This helps give the article more structure, and also identifies what is still missing. There is no MOS as such, but most bio FAs follow a similar structure. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:50, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead fattened YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you've made it a little bit too fat. —Dark 01:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The prose is now 50k, so I don't think it is proportionally too fat YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:10, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you've made it a little bit too fat. —Dark 01:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- home range and patrolling done I think. I've gone through O/P up until p77 except for the giant list of differeny noises and postures. The rest is mostly cultural stuff and probably won't yield much more; it is mostly monologues and extracts on old and outdated ideas, cultural history/perception etc Still long way :( YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:06, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In order for the article to be comprehensive, do we have to use more of the stuff from Web of Science that Casliber pulled up on the talk page? --Malkinann (talk) 17:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it is good in these cases to check them off as much as possible, so noting ones which have information which is too specific/not of interest to the general reader or already covered elsewhere. Especially prudent if we're still concerned about comprehensiveness. I might have a bit more time this week, depending on RL circumstances. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:29, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Added some genetics but wasn't able to understand much of the paper, so only used a bit of it YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I've been feeling really jetlagged the past few days, my brain is only cranking into gear for complicated stuff now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I've experimentally reorganised the lower part of the article to regard conservation, in captivity and cultural references as a subset of human relationships with the TD. Unsure of how it looks - does this structure now imply that DFTD is anthropogenic? :/ --Malkinann (talk) 19:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- looks good. I was thinking of doing the same thing. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What more is wanted from the in captivity section? Not a lot is different, and O/P hardly has anything of substance apart from some anecdotes of humans patting them on the head at a zoo, and transcripts of interviews without much pertinent. Also DFTD is now under the human section as conservation is under humans, which creates a problem YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe stuff like the FREs? Where would breeding and release programs go? It seems that, with DFTD predicted to spread across the entire range of the devil, (and populations estimated to become locally extinct within 15 yrs of disease introduction - McCallum, H et al. (2007). "Distribution and Impacts of Tasmanian Devil Facial Tumor Disease") - well, it doesn't look good for the survival of the TD. :( I've done another reorganisation attempt which has conservation not in the human section, so that it doesn't look anthropogenic. Is that any better? --Malkinann (talk) 06:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes that looks good too. Onre thing I have done before is place Conservation sections as subsections of Distribution and habitat sections, as in a way it is a focus on distribution/population, but often in articles where it is a big issue (such as Kakapo and this one), full section status is an option too). Either good. I am happy to follow your lead. Casliber (talk · contribs) 17:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment – Are the expansion tags still needed? Aaroncrick TALK 09:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Genetics needs way more love for the 2004 paper. Not too sure about the others - perhaps going through the WoS stuff will provide answers. --Malkinann (talk) 09:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does the 2009 paper on teh social network cause problems with material added from earlier sources? YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the writeup is good. (barring actually having, you know, read the paper). Says we thought TDs were solitary, research was performed, and this is the actual situation, and explains the actual situation. There's a 2008 paper which goes into seasonal stuff and the TDs meeting, but perhaps the 2009 paper supercedes it? Just as a general note, I find I'm rubbish at juicing information out of papers - so I feel more comfortable marking them as in the article than confidently done. --Malkinann (talk) 06:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gah, spoke too soon - "Although they hunt alone,[33] there have been unsubstantiated claims of communal hunting where one repels prey out of its habitat and an accomplice attacks,[67] eating is a social event for the Tasmanian devil. This combination of a solitary animal that eats communally makes the devil unique among carnivores.[53]" - this does not reference the 2009 study or gel with it. --Malkinann (talk) 07:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll have a read. Often the best thing is to list out how the various studies make their observations - eg the radio collars for the 2009 field study etc. I can embellish it a bit and send to you guys as it is quite interesting. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:17, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thinking about it. The radio collar study says that most of the time the devils were alone, but that they interacted with other devils quite often. They did note that male-male interactions were rare (better add that). I have to download the fulltetext of the radio study again :/ Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Padded in Jones' 2004 study on low genetics, with a lot of quoting, as I am not confident rephrasing YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:00, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have had very little sleep the last couple of days due to RL commitments, so really cerebral stuff is a bit of a challenge, but the end is in sight :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: Just got a book on Carnivorous marsupials by Archer et al from the library, so should have a good overview to get an idea of coverage. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:32, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Nothing has happened in the review section for close to a month, so moving to the FARC section. Featured article criteria of concern mentioned in the review section include referencing, comprehensiveness and due weight. Dana boomer (talk) 02:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- YM asked me to look into this before he took his break, so I'm taking a pile of readings and I'll try and do what I can for it in a week. I'm stuck on the water with no internet access until then, but I should be able to make a shot at it upon my return, once I have a better feel for the topic. - Bilby (talk) 02:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Bilby! Could we get an update as to a possible time frame for this article? Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 14:43, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've finally got all the reading out the way. :) I'll see what I can do over the next couple of days. - Bilby (talk) 15:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Update? Dana boomer (talk) 22:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've finally got all the reading out the way. :) I'll see what I can do over the next couple of days. - Bilby (talk) 15:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Bilby! Could we get an update as to a possible time frame for this article? Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 14:43, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- YM asked me to look into this before he took his break, so I'm taking a pile of readings and I'll try and do what I can for it in a week. I'm stuck on the water with no internet access until then, but I should be able to make a shot at it upon my return, once I have a better feel for the topic. - Bilby (talk) 02:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is approaching keep territory, just need to check the tumour bit. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:33, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Please note:
- dealt with/updated Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:54, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Still a cleanup banner in the facial tumour section.
- It is in error. actually summarises the daughter article okay. What /both/ articles lack is what the disease /looks/ like in much detail. I am looking into it and it shouldn't be difficult at all. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:15, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Citation needed tag in the Cultural references section.
- This could be solved by some rewording of the reference to the character - given the apparent non-notability of the Tasmanian Devil character, and the existence of comic book death, it might just be simpler to cite that a character by that name exists, without going into detail about origin and (apparently outdated) death. --Malkinann (talk) 21:58, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- "When?" tag in the feeding section.
- I placed this tag - asking if the citation is to Guiler (1970) or Guiler (1992). --Malkinann (talk) 11:29, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It can't be 1970, see the page range Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:29, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I placed this tag - asking if the citation is to Guiler (1970) or Guiler (1992). --Malkinann (talk) 11:29, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Once these issues are taken care of, the article should be good to go. Dana boomer (talk) 13:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- 'I can see the finishing line in this one. On a bit of a roll now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:15, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- How is work moving along on these final points? Dana boomer (talk) 15:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've restated the DC superhero mention to say merely that he exists, which is all I can source. With this, I believe all of the issues you've raised with the article are taken care of. --Malkinann (talk) 00:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fine. Happy to keep now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've restated the DC superhero mention to say merely that he exists, which is all I can source. With this, I believe all of the issues you've raised with the article are taken care of. --Malkinann (talk) 00:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- How is work moving along on these final points? Dana boomer (talk) 15:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- 'I can see the finishing line in this one. On a bit of a roll now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:15, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
- It has several instances of centimetres with decimal precimal. It may be better to use millimetres instead.
Not a strongly held opinion. Feel free to ignore. Lightmouse (talk) 09:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Funnily enough, I have been advised to change measurements in mm in the past when I've used mm for smaller ones and cm for bigger ones. Also the cm ones have inche conversions which are even smaller. I can see this is an either/or type situation - given the inch conversions I am inclined to leave as is. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Nikkimaria 19:53, 16 July 2011 [36].
Review commentary
- Notified: Pamri, Kkm010, WP Business, WP Economics, WP India
I am nominating this featured article for review because it is a 2005 FA that hasn't been reviewed since 2006. Significant work is needed, including work on references, prose and images.
- Several places where opinion and statistics are uncited. For example, the second paragraph of the Balance of payments section – there are others, this is just an example.
- Bullet pointed lists are discouraged per MOS. There are several places where bullet points could easily be turned into prose.
- Image captions can should be shortened in several cases, and refs removed wherever possible.
- Twenty dead links (some marked and some not) and one dab link.
- Mix of spellings (neighbor and neighbour, etc)
- Improperly formatted references, web refs missing publishers and access dates. Books accessed through Google books should be formatted as books, not websites, and Google books should not be given as the publisher – they are simply making the information accessible. Books should have full information – publisher, ISBN, page numbers.
- Unreliable/non-high quality sources:
- #80 (Sify) – redirects to a nonexistent page.
- #88 (Nationmaster) – Nationmaster is an unreliable aggregate site, they often use WP or other wikis for information
- #94 (Indianchild) – using a site dedicated to child internet safety for statistics on oil and gas?
- #122 (Swaminathan) – what is this?
- Lots of 2005 data throughout the article – should be updated if possible. Dana boomer (talk) 17:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern mentioned in the review section include MOS issues, references, and comprehensiveness. Dana boomer (talk) 00:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Delist Agree with concerns cited by the nominator. Concerns not addressed. JJ98 (Talk) 03:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Most concerns raised above have been addressed:
- Citations have been added wherever required.
- Bulleted lists have been replaced with prose.
- All dead links have been fixed or removed.
- Spellings have been made consistent.
- References have been formatted.
- High-quality secondary sources have been added; poor-quality sources have been replaced wherever possible.
- Data has been updated to 2008-09 or 2009-10 figures wherever possible.
- Please point out any specific concerns that remain to be addressed. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 18:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments:
- I've added a few more fact tags where I think references should be included.
- Income and consumption section, Why does "As of 2005, according to World Bank statistics, 75.6% of the population lives on less than $2 a day (PPP), while 41.6% of the population is living below the new international poverty line of $1.25 (PPP) per day.[136][137][138][139][140]" need five references?
- Still many web references missing publishers.
- Still some book refs in split format and others not.
- Still a mix of cite templates and hand written references, resulting in inconsistently formatted references.
- Still a mix of British and American spellings (both criticized and criticised, for instances)
- Still one dab link.
- Probably more to come, this is just another quick skim. Dana boomer (talk) 18:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have been working on these, but am at present on holiday and have only limited internet access. I'd like to request for an extension of a couple of weeks in order to enable me to complete the work once I return. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's fine - FAR/FARCs are allowed to remain open as long as necessary if an article is being improved consistently. Thanks for the note. Dana boomer (talk) 13:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I just noticed this FAR now. I will pitch in on this too and try to resolve your issues.--Pamri • Talk 03:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's fine - FAR/FARCs are allowed to remain open as long as necessary if an article is being improved consistently. Thanks for the note. Dana boomer (talk) 13:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Can we get an update as to the ongoing work here? Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 14:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- All issues raised above, plus some more, have been addressed. References have been added where necessary, redundant/unnecessary references removed, all references consistently formatted using templates, publisher details and accessdates added, dab links and spelling fixed, image captions shortened wherever possible, and sources replaced with better-quality ones. Further inputs are awaited. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 09:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
More comments
- Still need to check British/American spellings. Still both jewelry and jewellery, organized/organised, colonize/colonise, hordes of ization/isation, etc, etc, etc. Done.
- Still have inconsistently formatted refs. #5 is a bare link, #10 has its retrieval date formatting differently, #19 is a bare link, #52 has no publisher, what is #59, #138 has no access date, #200 has no publisher. This is just from a quick scan, and this is the third time I've pointed out inconsistencies like this.
- Ref 17 (World Economic Forum) is dead Removed.
- Text should not be sandwiched between images, as it is in the Infrastructure section Done.
- Pre-colonial period, "with a dominant subsistence sector dependent on primitive technology." What is a "dominant subsistence sector"? Clarified.
- Colonial period, What is a "policy of discriminating protection"? Clarified (although the source does not directly define the term, an explanation has been added).
- Post-liberalisation, "capacity expansion for incumbents". Incumbents of what? Clarified with wikilink.
- Post liberalisation, "reduced corporate taxes and small scale industries are created in large numbers" What? Clarified.
- Post liberalisation, "This has been accompanied by increases in life expectancy, literacy rates and food security." This sentence seems to imply that there is a link between government liberalization and population health/education improvements. Do the sources actually make such a link? If not, it might be better to place this sentence elsewhere, or at least make it clear that there is no scientifically-proven link between the two. Clarified.
- Post liberalisation, "by its nuclear tests in 1998" Nuclear power? Nuclear bombs? Nuclear genetics? Clarified with wikilink.
- Post liberalisation, "is believed to play a major role in the global economy in the 21st century." The 21st century is now. Do people believe that it currently plays a major role, or do they believe that it will play a major role further into the 21st century. Clarified.
- Industry and services, "In absolute terms," What do you mean by "absolute terms"? As opposed to what other kind of terms? As opposed to percentage terms (i.e. as a % of GDP).
- Industry and services, "Economic reforms brought". Reforms when? Clarified.
- Industry and services, "fast-moving consumer goods." What is meant by "fast moving" goods? Clarified with wikilink.
- Energy and power, "India is also believed to be rich in certain renewable sources" How can you be "believed to be rich" in something like the sun or wind? Clarified.
- There is quite a bit of overlinking that I found in the article - some of it I removed, but another check would be good. Most countries, basic terms like "agriculture" and others don't need to be linked. Linking only to high-value links prevents the dilution of the linking experience for the reader - if all they see is a sea of blue links, they are less likely to click on any of them. Done; please let me know if there are any more links which are unnecessary.
Gotten through the Sectors section so far, will do the rest later. Dana boomer (talk) 00:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Remove, unfortunately. I remember calling for this article to be radically improved ages ago. I can't believe it was promoted to FA status. I does seem better than when I last saw it; but just looking at random—
- Why is "US" specified for dollars at all, let alone every time (see MOSNUM), why is it linked? I see a space ($ X) in at least one instance. Spaces have been removed; the "US" and link is due to the use of the {{INRConvert}} template which auto-links the currency.
- En dashes needed for the year ranges, not hyphens. I'll run a script on it now.
- Exports map: the caption needs to be more explicit, and the map about twice the size. Same with the other maps. Done.
- Poverty-line graph: fuzzy visually, and the caption is weird: "Percentage of population living under the poverty line of $1 (PPP) a day, currently 356.35 rupees a month in rural areas (around $7.4 a month)." Done.
- "World map showing the Gini coefficient, a measure of income inequality."—So India is light blue; shouldn't the caption say that India is among countries placed ???? in the Gini index? Done.
- "
The question ofwhether economic reforms have reduced povertyor nothas fuelled debates without generatinganyclear-cut answers and hasalsoput political pressure on further economic reforms, ...". Prose problems in the redundant wording (this needs attention throughout); how does one put pressure on further economic reforms? And shortly after I see "and has also put political pressure on further reforms" again. Done. - "chronic or disguised unemployment" -> "chronic (disguised) unemployment", piped accordingly. Done.
- "banning employment of children (under 14) in"—the employment of. And why the parentheses? Done.
- Spaced em dashes (see MOSDASH). Replaced with spaced en dashes throughout the article.
- Overlinked: e.g. telecommunications, textiles, chemicals, food processing, steel, transportation equipment, cement, mining, petroleum, machinery, information technology, pharmaceuticals. Done.
Tony (talk) 15:19, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you checked for more instances of the prose issues Tony mentioned above, or did you just fix the ones he mentioned? After sweeping the article again, please ping Tony and ask him to return to his comments. Dana boomer (talk) 22:24, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have generally swept the article and cleaned it up as far as possible in order to address the concerns above. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 14:08, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Image concerns
File:Indian Notes 10 100 500.JPG: Derivative of copyrighted works without permission; these currency, issued in 1996 or later, are copyrighted by the Indian government for 60 years (not even factoring their copyright status in the US).Replaced by File:Indian rupees.png whose issues are listed below- File:Cumulative Current Account Balance.png: Where on Gunnmap is it stated that its works can be released into the public domain? It specifically states in Finish: "All generated images are licenced under CC-BY-SA", which means all derivatives (by sharealike) must follow the CC-BY-SA or similar licenses.
- Changes to licensing should best be made by the author themselves. I have informed Emilfaro and asked if he would agree with the correction.[37] Jappalang (talk) 01:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
File:RBI Tower.jpg: Wikipedia is not a valid source. Where did this image originally come from? Who is its copyright holder? Considering that there is a CC-licensed photograph with a wider coverage,[38] it will be necessary to properly attribute the licensing per requirements.Replaced by the original version that was on Commons- File:FarmersIndia.jpg: A local administrator should confirm if this was uploaded here under CC-BY-SA-3.0,2.5,2.0,1.0 and GFDL.
- File:Kochi India slums.jpg: Author (k r ranjith)-Uploader (Roberto Mura) discrepancy needs to be covered by OTRS.
File:MauryanCoin.JPG: PHG's local upload should be checked for whether it was his work and if he did release into the public domain. However, World Imaging's upload of his better image have complicated the issue. Please refer to commons:Commons:Village pump#Replacing one copyrightable work with another separate copyrightable work for enlightenment for details.File:2006Indian exports.PNG: The base map, File:BlankMap-World.png, has no indication of where it is derived from. Such a detailed map is unlikely to be made from nothing, and the author has not given any indication of what copyright status the source material is (commons:Commons:Image casebook#Maps and satellite images).- Not quite. The issue is not that "No source information provided" (Vardion is the source), but that no information is given on what basis the map was created. See also the issues that surround File:World Map Gini coefficient.png.
File:Gini Coefficient World CIA Report 2009.png: No base map indicated (CIA source is for the coefficient data).Replaced by File:World Map Gini coefficient.png, whose issues are noted below.File:Precolonial national income of India(1857-1900).png: Is this an own work, or is it copied directly from the source indicated (there are no clear indications on either)? If copied, then the uploader does not have the authority to release the work into public domain, and it has to be explained why such a work is in the public domain.File:Per capita GDP of South Asian economies & SKorea (1950-1995).png: Same as aboveFile:Private and public industry employment in India(2003).png: Same as aboveFile:BPL Data GOI.png: Same as above- File:Indian rupees.png: This copyrighted image fails to meet WP:NFCC criteria #8 ("contextual significance"). The rationale "Used only to depict the notes on Wikipedia pages" does not help to explain why this image is contextually significant to the article about India's economy; such a picture also seems more relevant to an article about the country's currency than its economy (which is more than just the rupee; the currency is an abstraction of the economy of the country).
File:World Map Gini coefficient.png: The base map File:BlankMap-World.png has no information of how it is created and licensing whatsoever. Perhaps it was vandalised; however, this older version also gives no information of how the base map was created (which data set used, or what public domain reference map). Furthermore, images that display data should state the sources for the data in the image page per WP:V. The sources for the Gini 2005 data should be stated.
Number 1 and 2 are the most serious—violations of copyrights/licensing. Numbers 3, and 4 probably just need local administrator verification/vouching. Number 5 needs an OTRS (unless uploader is Jimbo Wales... see commons:User talk:Abigor/Archives/2010/May#Hmm and commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive 21#OTRS permissions required for old cases?). Number 6 could potentially be messy, but I would prefer to have World Imaging's version (if it gets spin off to another file name or retained here with copyright clarification). Numbers 7 and 8 have to state what is the base map's copyright status (and where it was obtained or how created). The charts/diagrams have to state clearly whether they are the uploaders' own work (based on the sources of information given) or copied content that are not eligible for copyright protection. Jappalang (talk) 15:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Number 13 is a fair use consideration and I believe a photograph of the currency is not really a good representation (identification photograph) of the concept of a country's economy. Jappalang (talk) 02:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 2, is it necessary that the images be licensed under CC, especially when Gunmapp seems to be only a software for creating the image? Shouldn't the broader license apply? Please clarify.
- Re: 4-5, since I'm not an administrator, could an administrator please verify these?
- Re: 7, the map seems to have been used across multiple projects without any problem. The creator's user page (currently inactive) mentions that they have created several maps on WP and also licenses all their contributions under CC, does that help?
- Re: 8, the user has not made any contributions for 18 months and appears to be inactive. What course of action do you suggest?
- Re: 9-12, the descriptions seem to indicate that the map is an original work, while data have been taken from the respective sources mentioned. However, I'll request the creator to clarify.
- Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 11:34, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 2. CC is a license (the author retains his copyright but allows it to be used by others without permission). It is not a surrender of copyright as is a declaration of public domain. The map is a derivative work of Gunmapp; as such it should abide by Gunmapp's licensing requirements, anything else is a violation of the terms the author of Gunmapp has decided his works should be used.
- Re: 7. It would be much preferable to have those details. Several old uploads have been found to be copyviolations, even though they were widely used.
- Re: 8. Either transfer the data onto a base map that is verifiable to be in the public domain or created from pure geographic data or a CC-licensed map, or try to investigate where the base map came from (exact match). Jappalang (talk) 02:53, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 9-12, Yes, I am the creator of those charts and thats why I used the self-PD template back then. --Pamri • Talk 03:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have corrected 9-11 with your clarification,[39][40][41] but I am curious why you claim #12 as your work. Are you IndianCow (talk · contribs)? Jappalang (talk) 05:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 2, I have replaced the licensing information in the file description per your comments above. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 10:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 7, this seems to have been resolved now. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 8, the image has been replaced with File:World Map Gini coefficient.png which does not seem to have any issues. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I have corrected 9-11 with your clarification,[39][40][41] but I am curious why you claim #12 as your work. Are you IndianCow (talk · contribs)? Jappalang (talk) 05:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 4, the image has been removed.
- Re: 7/14, some information has been added [File:BlankMap-World.png here]; could you please clarify on the talk page of that article as to what the specific issue is? Meanwhile, I have removed both images from the article until the issues surrounding them are resolved.
- Re: 12, the page indicates that the website mentioned is the source of the data. The copyright holder (i.e. the creator of the image) has released it under the GFDL. What else needs to be done?
- Re: 13, the currency is the best abstraction of a country's economy. The use of the image in the infobox is intended to provide a representation of the country's economy which would thereby enhance readers' understanding about it. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 09:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: 4, eh this has not been removed... maybe Pamri could help confirm the licenses this and 5 had when they were uploaded to Wikipedia?
- Re: 7/14, I have raised the issue at commons:File talk:BlankMap-World.png#Source of data for this map?.
- Re: 12, firstly, which reports on that website? There are more than 20 downloads and 17 multiple-field downloads. Secondly, User:IndianCow is the copyright holder of the image. Is the admin Pamri saying he or she is User:IndianCow?
- Re: 13, I do not agree. Economies are indicators that are not expressly defined in the country's own currency. It can be expressed in terms of US dollar, Japanese yen, etc. In short, it is a relative figure without a standard unit. The rupee notes are not indicative of India's economy. A collage of photographs (which "free" versions can be found) of India's main economic activities/strengths would be more representative of the country's economy than a shot of copyrighted paper bills.
- -- Jappalang (talk) 10:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoops! Meant to remove 12, not 4, ended up removing neither :D
- Thanks for the comments and follow-up. Subsequent to their issues being resolved, both 7 and 14 have been reinstated into the article. 12 has been removed pending resolution of its issues. 4 and 5 are essentially admin tasks which I am not unfortunately in a position to perform.
- Re: 13, a discussion has been opened on the talk page inviting suggestions for images to be included in the proposed collage/montage. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 07:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Other concerns
I shortened the dollar statement at the top (by more than half). The wikilinking/piping needs attention throughout.
- Why these links? "Major agricultural [[product (business)|products]],
- Why the pipe? market-based economy. There's a fixation on "-based".
- Newpapers (NYT, Mint, etc) should be italicised.
- "social democratic-based policies" -> "social democratic policies"?
- Why not make the link explicit, or readers will think it's a useless common-term link: "accelerated India's [[economic development in India|economic growth rate]". Same with this: "[[Agriculture in India|Agriculture]] is the predominant occupation in India" -> "Agriculture in India is the predominant occupation".
- Who is going to click on these links? "rice, wheat, oilseed, cotton, jute, tea, sugarcane, potatoes, cattle, water buffalo, sheep, goats, poultry and fish"?
- % and percent in the same para.
- "2009-10 government survey"—see my previous comment about dashes.
That's the opening. I appreciate the work that has been done thus far, this has been here since 16 November—too long. This is a textbook case of a FA that should have been delisted after a group of editors was established to bring to again to FAC. Tony (talk) 01:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Apologies for this delayed response; I've had only sporadic internet access over the past few days. My replies to your comments are as follows:
- Re: "based", it's a characteristic of Indian English which this article follows, and was mentioned on the talk page as well (I have now added a template to make this clearer).
- Re: overlinking, as a general rule, I have linked words that could be ambiguous in their meaning—such as "product", provide useful related information ("fertiliser", "irrigation", "tax haven"), and also some others that I thought were technical terms or uncommon things which would not be known to an average reader (hence "oilseed", "water buffalo" etc.). I have removed some of the more obvious, such as "cattle", "poultry" and others.
- Finally, I think it's unfair to insist on delisting as long as work is in progress on the article—nothing is lost by retaining it on FARC as long as feedback is provided and the article improved accordingly, whether in respect of prose or otherwise. I appreciate all the comments that have been provided thus far, and I will continue working on any more that are provided. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 15:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- SBC-YPR, if you have finished with Tony's comments, as well as given the article another good look over, please ping him to come back and review the article again. You may also want to ask some other editors from related projects or who may have an interest in the article to come by and leave comments. Dana boomer (talk) 14:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update? - are Tony's comments dealt with, and if so has he been pinged? Have any other editors been asked to leave comments? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: I had no time to go through the entire artciley but here are some useful comments (I hope):
- Infobox/Credit rating: $1.164 trillion (2010 est.)- What does it mean?
- Lead section is very short (one paragraph only): It should be a summary of the article itself (ideally 3-4 paragraphs as per WP:MoS).
- Section about "economic trends and issues": Why not merge this section with another more specific section (for example, with agriculture, for the related forecast)?
- Overall article structure could be improved (see Economy of Iran as a possible model).
I hope it helps! SSZ (talk) 12:37, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- It says "4000 billion cubic metres", "1123 billion cubic metres", "1074 billion cubic metres". It would be easier to comprehend if 'billion cubic metres' were expressed succinctly as 'cubic kilometres'.
- It says "crore" in several places. I think the article would be more widely accessible if crore values were converted into trillions.
- It says "9,587 MW", "164,835 megawatts", "128400 MW", and "652.2 billion kWh". I think the precision is greater than necessary and could be expressed as '9.6 GW', '165 gigawatts', '128 GW', and '652,000 GWh'. The reduced precision would make easier to read.
These opinions are not strongly held, feel free to do something different or ignore them. Lightmouse (talk) 09:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delist - This article has been at FAR for almost 7 months, and while it has improved, there are still significant prose and MOS issues:
- The lead is far too short for an article of this length
- Prose is still far below the standard of FA. Run on sentences, plural/singular agreement, missing comments after sentence clauses, etc. all need to be dealt with, and the editors appear to be simply fixing given examples and neglecting a full read-through of the article.
- Text sandwiched between images in the Pre-colonial period (up to 1773) section.
Although the referencing has improved immensely, the significant prose issues in this article is still holding it up from being of FA caliber. Dana boomer (talk) 15:28, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delist - Agreeing that 7 months of FAR is long and probably too long.
- 3c Some image copyright problems still remain per above image review.
- Article fails MOS:LINKS, MOS:IMAGES and MOS:LEDE.
- I see a lot of effort was expended in fixing problems but likely the article was too far gone to begin with. Brad (talk) 03:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept 22:26, August 10, 2007.
Review commentary
- WP Belgium notified.
- previous FAR
- Note on closing: listed at WP:FFA as re-promoted.
Disputed neutrality. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 16:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
comment The disputed neutrality is well documented in the talk page. Many progress has been done since the POV label has been set. However several points are still to be addressed:
- In the lead: the choice of the "enclave" word is a Flemish POV. See article de Gordel to understand why putting this fact at such a position in the text is a political issue!
- The paragraph:
In 2006, the country's largest French-speaking university published a survey report calling Flanders' leadership in speaking multiple languages "undoubtedly wellknown", and showing this lead to be considerable : of the Flemish respondents 59% could speak French and 53% English; of the Walloons on the other hand, only 19% Dutch and 17% English; of the Brussels' residents, 95% declared they can speak French, 59% Dutch, and 41% the non-local English. Economically significant in an increasingly globalizing epoch, in their respective regions 59%, 10%, and 28% of people under forty can speak all three forementioned languages. In each region, Belgium's third official language, German, is notably less known than those.[50][51][46]
is still utterly Flemish POVed. Its only aim is to prove the reader that Walloons are not adapted to our "increasingly globalizing epoch". I agree with the content but NPOV style should be carefully used. Several reversed suggestion have been proposed in the past. Vb 11:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand why the word "enclave" is a problem and I know de Gordel. An enclave is in political geography "a (part of a) country mostly surrounded by the territory of another country or wholly lying within the boundaries of another country." The region Brussels is a legally defined region that is completely surrounded by the Flemish constitutionally defined region. In what way does the word enclave then constitute a Flemish POV? I can only think of a francophone POV as Brussels is part of the Flemish (and francophone) community and as a consequence Brussels is only a enclave in one way (region, not community). Sijo Ripa 12:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The word enclave is not a problem. The problem is to put this word in the lead. This provides an emphase to this word which is not required by anything except POV-pushing. User:Marskell had already provided a simple compromise which had been refused by User:SomeHuman. Vb 06:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Vb should stop his continued deliberate misleading in order to push his POV: "not required by anything" is clearly and repeatedly contradicted on the talk page of Belgium: The presentation of Belgian areas does belong in the lead (that was never questioned), and all 4 areas of that sentence have their location mentioned; contrarily leaving only the location of Brussels out is ostentative POV-pushing and cripples the paragraph. Moreover, the sentence was modified before Vb's POV-tagging to express 'an enclave within Flanders and near Wallonia': how NPOV can it be? Here above, even Sijo Ripa who had started the former FAR, and Dionysos on the talk page cannot see anything POV in the paragraph — and the latter supports my rendering of the other by Vb disputed phrase:
- The other sentence is not flattering for Walloons but that does not make it a breach of WP:NPOV: the sentence is the very carefully formulated rendering of the words of a French-speaking professor (cosigned by an American Jewish professor) of Economics, published in French by the most highly reputed Walloon university, as expressed in the highly visible introduction of a report. Another academic criticized the report because the author(s) stick(s) to a pro-French-speaking bias, and deeper in the report things are worded more strongly than in the WP article. And the report was quoted by the major Walloon quality newspaper, Le Soir, as well as by a major newspaper in the Netherlands (all referenced, while the report had been cited elsewhere as well), thus certainly notable. See strong argumentation on the talk page of Belgium, and above all: do read the French-language source; WP does not allow "assuming" some false POV accusation to be possibly right, only because one cannot read and understand a French-language reference that proves otherwise. And for a sensitive statement like the disputed one, one cannot start tampering with what the scolars in the referenced source point out to be most important: the phrase could never show a nice balance between Flemings and Walloons, thus with a modified rendering, it would be WP that makes the claim, even if a footnote proves the claim to come from elsewhere. That would jeopardize WP's NPOV policy. WP:NPOV guidelines clearly state that in such occasion, one must explicitly attribute the phrase to its source, as here is done, but then it must also very closely follow that source (hence a close translation with in footnote the French-language quote). In cases where there are other sources expressing a different point of view, these can be mentioned (if notable); but no such 'other', relativating, POV can be found. Thus Vb just wants to falsify the report, and such was actually done by Marskell (even "attributing" something to the report, that its authors express to have been widely known before even the survey had started, while entirely wiping the conclusions of the report: both the apparent one from its introduction and the major one on the consequences for the future; see proof on the talk page of Belgium, in the section about this ridiculous new FAR).
- Keep FARring till everyone runs away and hand the article to the extremist POV Vbs, will make all serious authors, and finally readers, run away from WP altogether. A FAR must be the judging of the intrinsic qualities of an article, not an instrument of POV-pushers. Apart from one phrase called 'bizarre' by Marskell (once again see the talk page section about this FAR), of which the 'bizarre' aspect escapes me, there is no discussion whatsoever regarding the quality. This FAR is utterly misplaced, especially as this is not like having a bunch of people arguing on reducing POV or on a need to attain NPOV; in fact the only logical and reasonable arguments that have been presented, prove this article to be highly NPOV, and many "suggestions that have been proposed in the past" to be clear breaches of it: all even very farfetched suggestions of breaches that might convince a few people, had been modified before the FA status was granted by the just closed FAR.
- Any "compromise" between WP:NPOV and POV formulations or omissions for POV reasons, is a very clear breach of WP:NPOV. A quote from that major WP policy: "the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject. Debates within topics are described, represented and characterized, but not engaged in." Furthermore, "The principles upon which these policies are based are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus." Hence this repeated FAR to obtain the unacceptable? It was removed, and then unduly reopened. Cancel it. (Casliber's demand on the talk page section, to remove FA and require consensus before it could regain FA status, directly violates forementioned WP:NPOV policy; SandyGeorgia did not appear to be eager in supporting another FAR, and neither was Marskell. And the article should not become FAR material within many months, rather years: One can maintain standards by improving new additions. I had accused Vb of trolling behaviour by starting the same discussions over and over again in other sections, when he found no support; do not keep feeding Vb.)
- — SomeHuman 17 Jul2007 16:47–19:23 (UTC)
- The word enclave is not a problem. The problem is to put this word in the lead. This provides an emphase to this word which is not required by anything except POV-pushing. User:Marskell had already provided a simple compromise which had been refused by User:SomeHuman. Vb 06:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Felipe, please follow instruction number 6 at the top of WP:FAR, notify all relevant parties, and leave a record here. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern is POV (1d). Marskell 09:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Other FA criteria concern is "well writtern" (1a) and "edit war" (1e). Vb 08:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have doubts about the style of the following paragraph:
"Since the installation of Leopold I as king in 1831, Belgium has been a constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy. Initially an oligarchy characterized mainly by the Catholic Party and the Liberals, by World War II the country had evolved towards universal suffrage, the Labour Party had risen, and trade unions played a strong role. French as single official language and adopted by the nobility and the bourgeoisie, had lost its overall importance as Dutch had become recognized as well, though not before 1967 was an official Dutch version of the Constitution accepted.[13]"
The sentences should be cut in pieces. I have tried to inprove those sentences by myself but was all the time reverted the watchdog behaviour of User:SomeHuman makes the article very difficult to edit.
The table
Linguistic region | Authorities rendering services in the language of | Authority, limited to their respective competences, of | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
individuals & organisations expressing themselves | the Communities | the Regions (and their provinces) | the Federal government | |||||||
in Dutch | in French | in German | Flemish | French | German- speaking |
Flemish | Walloon | Brussels- Capital | ||
Dutch language area | yes | facilities (12) | not required | × | - | - | × | - | - | × |
French language area | facilities (4) | yes | facilities (2) | - | × | - | - | × | - | × |
Bilingual area Brussels-Capital | yes | yes | not required | × | × | - | - | - | × | × |
German language area | not required | facilities (all 9) | yes | - | - | × | - | × | - | × |
Facilities exist only in specific municipalities near the borders of the Flemish with the Walloon and with the Brussels-Capital Regions, and in Wallonia also in 2 municipalities bordering its German language area as well as for French-speakers throughout the latter area. Within parentheses: number of municipalities with special status, i.e. required to offer facilities for speakers of the column's language. |
is following Marskell's words "gibberish" and is too detailed to stands here.
The wording "The Federal State retains a considerable "common heritage"" is POV. I know it is a citation of the federal goverment homepage but it should be rewritten (as suggested by Marskell) in order to be less POVed.
Vb 08:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps people might have a look through the edit history, how exactly you have tried to "improve" that sentence on political history. The watchdog keeps NPOV and reasonably good prose, against fanatics: What could be POV about the "common heritage"? It's a simple fact, and whose POV into what direction, could it be? Pro or anti what, contested by whom? Oh yeah, by Vb who keeps shouting POV POV POVPOVPOV against all reason.
It is you, Vb, who tries to force your extreme POV into the article over and over again, and who keeps bringing up the same things you do not like at multiple places (which is trolling), now showing that sentence and the table even here. "Too detailed"? No Vb: it shows the constitutionally defined "language areas" from which all the regions and communities of Belgium are derived, and the related 'facilities' for speakers of a different national language. It may help people to understand the system of Belgium. And you want people to think that the Flemings (all or most extremists of course) have caused an incomprehensible lunatic and overly complex situation in Belgium. For your POV the table must become mutilated. For NPOV the table must keep showing Belgium.
And as I have clearly proven Marskell to have been editing the article Belgium in a very POV way during a few days (see talk page of Belgium), including a deliberate falsification of a quote from a referenced proper source by shoving in wordings that bring doubt about an entirely uncontested statement and fact, I cannot believe that same Marskell taking part at this ridiculous repeated FAR. In case this FAR is further abused to fight WP:NPOV by gathering 'consensus' to revoke FA until the watchdog gives in as he already has been doing far more than is reasonable by WP standards, so as to have solely your POV about "Belgium" depicted, I think Marskell's adminship should come under scrutiny: the NPOV policy mustnot bow for other guidelines or consensus (which only needs about four people who say that they agree) and WP:NPOV states so very clearly. — SomeHuman 25 Jul2007 17:06 (UTC)
- You have proven nothing of the sort. I have absolutely no POV on this. When I say that the table is gibberish, it's because I literally don't know what it's trying to say—that's not POV. I made sixty-odd edits to improve the prose. Any errors I made were typos, and given the state of some of the prose when I started, a couple of typos is a small price. I have no intention of closing this review, because I don't want to deal with your lack of AGF. The article is still broadly within criteria, incidentally. What you two need is dispute resolution, not FAR. Marskell 14:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear SomeHuman, I have no intention to prove that the Flemings (all or most extremists of course) have caused an incomprehensible lunatic and overly complex situation in Belgium because from my POV this is simply false: this situation is not lunatic nor overly complex and is not due to the Flemings only. I really just want to keep the article NPOV and understandable for foreigners. I am not suprised that Marskell does not understand the table above because there are much too many concepts in it which need explanations. I understand the table but because of my knowledge of Belgium not because of the table. I think it must be simplified. You have to think about what is the message of the table and how to explain it in a simple way before publishing it on WP. I think this message is quite obscure and should be simply skipped in this general article. Please convince me and Marskell of the opposite. With respect to the sentences of the history, my critic is the following: Initially an oligarchy characterized mainly by the Catholic Party and the Liberals, by World War II the country had evolved towards universal suffrage, the Labour Party had risen, and trade unions played a strong role. Too many things are mixed in one sentence only. The 19th century oligarchy is a concept which has only a few to do with World War II and the role of the trade unions in Belgium. My critic is similar for the second sentence: French as single official language and adopted by the nobility and the bourgeoisie, had lost its overall importance as Dutch had become recognized as well, though not before 1967 was an official Dutch version of the Constitution accepted. The official character of the French language in the 19th century has also few in common with the 1967 Dutch version of the constitution. I therefore simply suggest to split both sentences in two. When I did it you accused me of introduciong my POV, so I ask you to do it yourself so that a NPOV can be reached. In my opinion and in Marskell's "common heritage" has a POV taste because it assumes the "Belgique de Papa" is dead which may be true but is an opinion. Changing this wording is not difficult and Marskell did it in the past (being reverted by SomeHuman). Vb 17:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you have any idea about what POV and NPOV mean? The term "Belgique de Papa", dead or alive, is POV; that the federal level has a good deal of heritage common to Flemings and Walloons from its unitary time, is a simple fact that is shown by the important domains (to which the 'common heritage' phrase is the intro). Your idea that the "Belgique de Papa" might not be dead, is ridiculous POV: Belgium is a regionalized and no longer unitary state, the article mustnot pretend that such may not quite be the case. That is not an opinion but the Constitution (which was modified not like you wanted to present as a one-shot recent change instead of the series of modifications spread over several decades), and it is daily life. But the 'common heritage' still being important, on the contrary, means that unitary aspects are not as completely obliterated as the modern emphasis on regions might suggest: it makes clear that Belgium is not a confederal state, though some would prefer that. The article sticks with what Belgium is. And this is not the place to discuss your problems. If you think something in the article is 'POV' then find proper notable sources that corroborate whatever opinion you feel not sufficiently depicted, and only then discuss it on the article's talk page; WP is not a forum for your highly personal opinions. — SomeHuman 01 Aug2007 23:51 (UTC)
- Please don't get once again insulting. Of course I know what POV and NPOV mean. I also agree with the fact that Belgium is a regionalized and no longer unitary state and this point is clearly made clear in this article. However the term heritage suggest someone is dead. I wanted to stress how the word heritage implies a POV by translating it in the very POVed way: the "Belgique de papa" is dead. I want to underline that the choice of the word "heritage" is biased and should be made clearer or more neutral (as did Marskell before getting reversed). Vb 08:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The term could only, and still arguably, be POV, for someone who does not accept that the "Belgique de papa" is dead. Such imaginary person should then declare war to Belgium, the real country that survives, instead of to me. — SomeHuman 05 Aug2007 03:22 (UTC) P.S. For those less familiar with that phrase, it denotes the unitary (and mainly also the French-language dominated) Belgium. Even this work only asks whether the taboo question 'did the Belgique à papa survive?' had ever been raised, that is shortly after the 1970 constitutional change. Meanwhile there were three more constitutional changes amongst which the creation of the regions in 1980. From that time onwards, the question was no longer "taboo" and no "totem" either, but simply ridiculous, and thus this French-language source calls the old phrase "part of our collective memory". That is R.I.P. There are only aspects that survived (Belgium was not demolished), hence the 'common heritage'. May I point out that a heritage is normally considered a valuable thing, not something to be ashamed for (in this particular context: at least not for the aspects that form that 'common heritage'). — SomeHuman 05 Aug2007 03:39 (UTC)
- Please don't get once again insulting. Of course I know what POV and NPOV mean. I also agree with the fact that Belgium is a regionalized and no longer unitary state and this point is clearly made clear in this article. However the term heritage suggest someone is dead. I wanted to stress how the word heritage implies a POV by translating it in the very POVed way: the "Belgique de papa" is dead. I want to underline that the choice of the word "heritage" is biased and should be made clearer or more neutral (as did Marskell before getting reversed). Vb 08:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you have any idea about what POV and NPOV mean? The term "Belgique de Papa", dead or alive, is POV; that the federal level has a good deal of heritage common to Flemings and Walloons from its unitary time, is a simple fact that is shown by the important domains (to which the 'common heritage' phrase is the intro). Your idea that the "Belgique de Papa" might not be dead, is ridiculous POV: Belgium is a regionalized and no longer unitary state, the article mustnot pretend that such may not quite be the case. That is not an opinion but the Constitution (which was modified not like you wanted to present as a one-shot recent change instead of the series of modifications spread over several decades), and it is daily life. But the 'common heritage' still being important, on the contrary, means that unitary aspects are not as completely obliterated as the modern emphasis on regions might suggest: it makes clear that Belgium is not a confederal state, though some would prefer that. The article sticks with what Belgium is. And this is not the place to discuss your problems. If you think something in the article is 'POV' then find proper notable sources that corroborate whatever opinion you feel not sufficiently depicted, and only then discuss it on the article's talk page; WP is not a forum for your highly personal opinions. — SomeHuman 01 Aug2007 23:51 (UTC)
- Dear SomeHuman, I have no intention to prove that the Flemings (all or most extremists of course) have caused an incomprehensible lunatic and overly complex situation in Belgium because from my POV this is simply false: this situation is not lunatic nor overly complex and is not due to the Flemings only. I really just want to keep the article NPOV and understandable for foreigners. I am not suprised that Marskell does not understand the table above because there are much too many concepts in it which need explanations. I understand the table but because of my knowledge of Belgium not because of the table. I think it must be simplified. You have to think about what is the message of the table and how to explain it in a simple way before publishing it on WP. I think this message is quite obscure and should be simply skipped in this general article. Please convince me and Marskell of the opposite. With respect to the sentences of the history, my critic is the following: Initially an oligarchy characterized mainly by the Catholic Party and the Liberals, by World War II the country had evolved towards universal suffrage, the Labour Party had risen, and trade unions played a strong role. Too many things are mixed in one sentence only. The 19th century oligarchy is a concept which has only a few to do with World War II and the role of the trade unions in Belgium. My critic is similar for the second sentence: French as single official language and adopted by the nobility and the bourgeoisie, had lost its overall importance as Dutch had become recognized as well, though not before 1967 was an official Dutch version of the Constitution accepted. The official character of the French language in the 19th century has also few in common with the 1967 Dutch version of the constitution. I therefore simply suggest to split both sentences in two. When I did it you accused me of introduciong my POV, so I ask you to do it yourself so that a NPOV can be reached. In my opinion and in Marskell's "common heritage" has a POV taste because it assumes the "Belgique de Papa" is dead which may be true but is an opinion. Changing this wording is not difficult and Marskell did it in the past (being reverted by SomeHuman). Vb 17:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I am not in favor of delisting an article because of a content dispute between two people only. Please clean up or remove that table; it is gibberish and unintelligible to someone not familiar with Belgium. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Sandy, I utterly agree with you about the table. Please have a look at Talk:Belgium#Linguistic_regions_table for a simplified version of the table.Vb 10:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Vb might just as well obliterate the last seven columns or try to stick these too in a single column, then the table would be even a lot more simple, and not present any information at all. Sandy, instead of eliminating, I realized that the presentation was too confusing because one did not know where to begin reading the table. It's a basic cross-grid table and it just now became visually presented the way that is normally done (headers on the left and headers on top of the cross grid, without the needless and confusing header on top of the headers on the left which firstmentioned might just as well appeared a left-header to the headers on top [yes, that even sounds confusing here]). The column groups are now also better distinguished by thicker border lines between them, and unneeded horizontal borders are gone.
Furthermore, I moved the table up, towards what is explained by it; thus reading the text and then seeing the table makes both much more comprehensible. The two short paragraphs that used to be on top of the table (but actually belong underneath the mentioning of 4 language areas (where) and the naming of the 3 levels of government (by whom) and the table showing where, for whom, and by whom these interact), are now distinguished from the paragraphs describing the competences of each level, by a subtitle 'Competences' (which also helps to immediately see what is meant by the phrase in the top right corner of the table). The result is that Belgium's subdivisions are properly described; if that would still be gibberish, the error is not made by the article. — SomeHuman 05 Aug2007 02:31 (UTC)- I think the table is not better now but I read this so many time in the past that I am far from objective about this. The question about "heritage": The objective of this paragraph is to express what are the competences of the federal Belgian government not to express any opinion about them. The competences of the fed gov are what they are. Nobody need to say here where they stamms from. This has been done in the section history. Here a perfectly neutral tone must be used. It is simple to do, Marskell did it in the past but any sentence phrased by SomeHuman must be considered as perfect and may not be edited. Vb 14:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Vb might just as well obliterate the last seven columns or try to stick these too in a single column, then the table would be even a lot more simple, and not present any information at all. Sandy, instead of eliminating, I realized that the presentation was too confusing because one did not know where to begin reading the table. It's a basic cross-grid table and it just now became visually presented the way that is normally done (headers on the left and headers on top of the cross grid, without the needless and confusing header on top of the headers on the left which firstmentioned might just as well appeared a left-header to the headers on top [yes, that even sounds confusing here]). The column groups are now also better distinguished by thicker border lines between them, and unneeded horizontal borders are gone.
- Comment From a casual (ie 10 minute) view, the level of blue links seem overly dense. BC, Romans, province, Spanish, independent, Catholic, trade unions, Allied, political parties, engineer, soft drug usage. And others. The sentence "Belgium is well known for its cuisine", well what country would not make that claim. That said I would not have a substantive objection to make about its current form, its good, though I did not try and understand the table discussed above. Ceoil 02:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Ceoil, it is difficult to draw a line between over- and under-linked. This article has made the choice to link a bit too many names. If you feel it is overlinked please be bold and remove some links. About the sentence "Belgium is well known for its cuisine", it would be a ridiculous sentence without explanation and references. However the article explains why: because it has many star restaurants (according to Michelin) because many typical dishes are internationaly reknowned (biers, chocolates and others). Vb 13:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: For an article on a country with such complex linguistic and cultural relationships, this article has remained surprisingly neutral, unlike other controversial articles that have come up on FAR recently ;-). I guess the two main editors here see the details differently, but it does not seem to have a major POV (1d) problem. However it does have criterion 1a problems.
- An anglophone copyeditor is needed to fix the prose. For example, the word "competence" is used wrongly in this article due to the fact that it is a false friend or faux amis. In French, compétence means autorité (authority) or pouvoir (power), while in English, "competence" means possessing the skills, knowledge, or qualifications. Another example: the clause "Based on the four in 1962–63 circumscribed language areas,.." does not make sense. If you will permit me, I will try to fix some of these.
- The table really does need to be fixed or changed because it is not understandable.
- In the drawing showing the three language communities, the Brussels area is shown in a mix of red/grey. What does that mean? There should be legend with a definition of this colour. Also rather than having three pictures, why not use one picture with three or four colours (plus a legend)?
Another point not related to FA criteria is that I expected some content describing the difficult situation between the two communities. I saw the RTBF broadcast of the fake secession of Flanders so the subject must be important to the country. --RelHistBuff 13:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I have started working on the text and I just realise that a lot of work needs to be done. I just noticed that the article has a mix of British and American spelling. I will use British, unless there are any objections? --RelHistBuff 18:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I mentioned problems with the prose and with some of the references on the last FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- To RelHistBuff: Not understanding the table and wondering about the three pictures and the colours, is probably caused by not reading the article as a reader looking for information and is closely related to not understanding "Based on the four in 1962–63 circumscribed language areas". Those areas form the exact geographical boundaries of the 'Regions' and 'Communities' and how these coincide or overlap. As the matter is complex, one cannot expect everyone to fully grasp it immediately. Most Belgians still have great difficulties after having lived through it. The section does explain the necessary details as much as can be shown in this article, and mustnot be 'simplified' precisely because of your concern "describing the difficult situation between the two communities": the complexity is Belgium, a compromise (as mentioned in the section) that is intended to allow the two major communities to live peacefully in one country — and perhaps in one WP. The controverse is furthermore shown in many other sections (lead, history, politics, language, culture, ...) and cannot stand getting more weight: Belgium is much more than your apparent interest, and in a general article this controverse does not allow depicting whatever 'actuality' happens to attract attention this season.
The so-called 'American' spelling is actually correct British spelling as still used by scolars and in many international publications: The OED is for Belgium and many other countries, also in the very first English lessons, the reference work; not The Times or popular newspapers. Hence this article requires minimize and organized. See the WP article on American and British English spelling differences and for instance this; to my knowledge, the article was consistent.
I'm still going over your good work. Please do not feel bad about a few modifications I'm making: the edit comments should largely explain why these are needed. Kind regards. — SomeHuman 09 Aug2007 21:24 (UTC) - To SandyGeorgia: When? Before or after Markell's copyediting? And you had found the references good enough (in balance with what they reference, there should be a limit somewhere). Close this FAR war, because that is what it is: the article was FA after the very recent FAR and has not suffered since. Yours cordially — SomeHuman 09 Aug2007 21:24 (UTC)
- The spelling is not a big issue, so if it is kept consistently using the Oxford standard, no problem. But parts of the article are truly incomprehensible. The clause "Based on the four in 1962–63 circumscribed language areas" does not make sense. What happened in 1962-63? Do you mean the four areas as defined in 1962-63? Concerning the justification that the prose is as it is precisely because the situation is complex, this is not an acceptable defence. The prose (and grammar) needs improvement, full stop. I will continue to help, but as it stands the article fails on criterion 1a and does not represent our best work. --RelHistBuff 22:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- To RelHistBuff: Not understanding the table and wondering about the three pictures and the colours, is probably caused by not reading the article as a reader looking for information and is closely related to not understanding "Based on the four in 1962–63 circumscribed language areas". Those areas form the exact geographical boundaries of the 'Regions' and 'Communities' and how these coincide or overlap. As the matter is complex, one cannot expect everyone to fully grasp it immediately. Most Belgians still have great difficulties after having lived through it. The section does explain the necessary details as much as can be shown in this article, and mustnot be 'simplified' precisely because of your concern "describing the difficult situation between the two communities": the complexity is Belgium, a compromise (as mentioned in the section) that is intended to allow the two major communities to live peacefully in one country — and perhaps in one WP. The controverse is furthermore shown in many other sections (lead, history, politics, language, culture, ...) and cannot stand getting more weight: Belgium is much more than your apparent interest, and in a general article this controverse does not allow depicting whatever 'actuality' happens to attract attention this season.
- I mentioned problems with the prose and with some of the references on the last FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I gave it a shot and it still does not look good enough. Here are some of the remaining problems from my perspective.
- The "Communites and regions" needs fixing, in particular, the incomprehensible clause and the table. In my opinion the table should be simply removed. It is confusing and does not add enough info for the interest of a general reader of the enyclopaedia.
- WP:MOSLINKS problems. I tried to clean it up by removing general wikilinks, but there are are also many duplications.
- The lead which should summarise the article contains items that are not described in the main sections ("the battlefield of Europe" and "the cockpit of Europe")
- Most importantly, prose needs improvement and a copyedit is needed.
It would be better if more people join in to help, but perhaps some have been scared off because of reverts. I hate to see this one go, but for the above reasons (specifically criterion 1a), I vote Remove. I will gladly change my vote if I see improvements before the end of this FARC. --RelHistBuff 11:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just one more point. It would be good that the main editors take a look at the version that passed FAC. That version is clear and understandable, a very nice read. Perhaps if the editors will update the current version with the old version in mind, then this article will easily pass this review. --RelHistBuff 15:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The "1962-63" clause has been altered, and the table as well (perhaps clearer for those who have difficulties in understanding, with the extra 'See also' at top of its section and the modified sentence immediately following the table). I'm not sure whether you checked those before your latest comment here. The article version you just state to be a proper sample, had "the Cockpit of Europe" in the lead and nowhere else either (and without a reference which became requested like most others at a later time).
- Whereas I strongly agree on removing the links from 'fifth century' and 'eighth century', and can see reason for doing so with 'Latin', 'independent', 'parliament', 'chemical', 'petroleum', 'subsidized', for this country the link does not seem excessive in the "the country has a comparatively high number of processions".
- For feudal, oligarchy, nobility, bourgeoisie, plebiscite, Blitzkrieg (which should be capitalized in the article), bicameral, Liberals, nationalist, dioxin, vocabulary, semantic, dialects, census, cartographer, anatomist, herbalist, mathematician, chemist, engineer, romantic, expressionist, surrealist, cycling, motocross, one can find only a far too incomplete explanation in a dictionary. Even that is certainly not possible for many other links that you removed and which cannot be assumed to be well understood by all readers, especially from other cultures: unitary state, proportional voting, compulsory voting, voter turnout, head of state, Prime Minister, political parties, political centre, right-wing,social conservative, Christian Democrats, Socialists (which links to 'Social democracy'), left-wing, environmental, per capita, open economy, "customs and currency union" (the first linking to 'customs union'), population density, regional language, postsecondary education, applied and pure science (the first linking to 'applied science'), Big Bang theory, Nobel Prize in literature, Formula One World Championship. Your removal of all four links from "Romanesque, Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque architecture" (each linking like the latter to '<term> architecture') appears to me as the work of a fanatic or a vandal, and removing it from saxophone in the sentence mentioning the inventor of the instrument is hardly sensible.
- The phrase: "regionalisation of the unitary state led to a three-tiered federation: federal, ..." had highly specific links chosen to allow the interested reader to find more information pertinent to the topic of that section. That is the strength of an electronic encyclopaedia. The practical use for readers is far more important than your aversion of blue links and (apart from the few mentioned first) is not what is can be called overdoing. The existence of the linked articles on Wikipedia would not be justified, if the links to them would not be proper. There are other 'difficult' words in the article that can do and already did without a link, as the dictionary definition suffices. With a high number of blue links, readers automatically keep on reading unless a term catches them; it is not at all like an article with ten lines of text and only two links to articles that add little to already commonly understood words. It is not unusual and never considered disturbing to link units for properties having different units in the world like this: "3 °C (37 °F), and highest in July at 18 °C (64 °F). The average precipitation per month varies between 54 millimetres (2.1 in)" (and those on abbreviations can even be repeated when used further on). For the many readers who do not natively speak English, abbreviations like GNP, GDP, OECD are rarely understood without a link - hell, I hadn't recognized the latter two (OECD was linked earlier but only in a footnote, by me!). That proper article version that had passed FAC, had most of the links that you just removed, fully active.
- Without the links, the article became unintelligable to readers with another cultural background than you or me (as Westerners) and, considering quite a few of the terms from which you removed links, to most readers of the same background with a slighly less profound and widely oriented education.
- — SomeHuman 10 Aug2007 18:30–18:37 (UTC)
- I tried to remove wikilinks that are not directly related to the subject and pointed to general topics on other matters. However, I admit that the decision-making is rather subjective, so if you would like to restore some links, please go ahead. But it would be good to remove duplications. --RelHistBuff 22:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 13:32, 14 April 2011 [42].
Review commentary
- Notified: Wikipedia:WikiProject Cats, Wikipedia:WikiProject India, Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa, User:Casliber
- "Recent" subspecies header needs a better descriptor. How recent is recent?
- Last sentence of first paragraph, and entire second paragraph, of "physical characteristics" are unsourced.
- Fourth paragraph of "mane" is unsourced.
- Last sentences in first two paragraphs of "group organization" are unsourced.
- Last two sentences in first paragraph of "health" are unsourced.
- [not in citation given] tag under "interspecific predatory relationships" and "in captivity" headers.
- Lots of one-sentence paragraphs in "Cultural depictions."
- Several dead links in references, far more than are already tagged with {{dead link}}.
- What makes these reliable sources?
- Refs #37 and #76 from Honolulu Zoo are the same website.
- Many refs are missing authorship and/or work credits, although most are the aforementioned seemingly-unreliable sites.
- Unqualified "In relatively recent times" under Distribution and Habitat header, and two unqualified "currently"s under Population and conservation status.
- Link to dab page Tsavo National Park.
- Cultural Depictions feels like an infodump, using almost entirely primary sources for things like sports teams with lion mascots.
Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 00:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, even with semiprotection, this high traffic article has been tricky to monitor over the years. I recall giving it a cleanout at least once in that time (twice?). I agree with much of what is said above. When it was promoted I tried hard to make a succinct, well-rounded Cultural depictions section, much of which was secondarily sourced. There are still secondary sources which should be referencing a significant portion of it. I do not have a problem with a primary source for an obviously highly notable team such as a national soccer team or NFL team. Source rules are guidelines. I will have a go at finding some secondary ones where possible or relegating material. It has been a magnet, and that is one reason why there is a daughter article. I normally hate separate "IPC" articles but in this case as one of the most heraldic animals of human civilization I felt it warranted it. This might take a while. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All isolated paras combined and some less notable examples removed from Cultural depictions section. Ive tagged some items myself and fixed some links. Will look. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Recent" is actually well-defined in the article—it means Holocene, as usual in historical biology and geology. The distinction between "Recent" and "prehistoric" is dubious, though; the second category would be more consistently called "Pleistocene". Ucucha 11:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good point. converted to align with preceding Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:58, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- removed the two currentlys Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't feel lions in British culture are properly discussed- I would say the football teams is far less important than the Royal Standard of England or especially the Coat of arms of England. The Red Lion is also our most popular pub name. Lions are frequenly viewed as very British, which I feel could probably be better expressed. J Milburn (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good points - it gets hard in big articles at times what to prioritise. I intend to do some juggling between the parent and daughter articles (where I meantioned and sourced the pub name) Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:17, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- replaced Catsurvivaltrust.org with book source. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Nothing happening for a wekk, so moved YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern is referencing YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per numerous criterion three failures:
- File:Lion distribution.png - Distribution is sourced, but what is the source of the underlying map?
- File:Asiatic african lions.jpg - United States does not use PMA term for published works. Re-license accordingly.
- removed - I don't think that image added mucg anyway 21:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- File:Matha.png - Same as above.
- removed - article already dense with images. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:41, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Lascaux-diverticule-félins.jpg - Needs a verifiable source per WP:IUP
- File:Wiki lion.jpg - No indication of GFDL license at source (images are all copyrighted). How can we verify this license? Needs OTRS ticket.
- The contact page of that site is down. I thought about this a bit and figured all this image was doing was confirming the article without adding too much, hence we can do without it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Lion and eland.jpg is Jay Villemarette the same as Sklmsta?
- File:Lightmatter lioness.jpg - No indication of CC license at source ("Copyright © LIGHTmatter Photography by Aaron Logan"). How can we verify this license?
- removed - didn't add much to article already dense with images. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dude, what were you LOOKING at? Regardless of the boilerplate (which I'd take to be an automatic insert, and to apply to the design anyway) the page clearly says "As before, the web versions of all photographs on this site are licensed for royalty-free use under a Creative Commons Attribution License." Circéus (talk) 23:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- removed - didn't add much to article already dense with images. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Lightmatter lioness.jpg - Same as above.
- Huh? Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Color Lion Plate East Africa comparison.jpg - No indication of CC license at source; "Usage Restrictions: None" is not sufficient indication of freeness (e.g. does not address derivatives).
- image of unknown copyright removed Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:58, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Loewen elefanten.jpg - No indication of CC/GFDL license at source ("Copyright © 2010 Big5 on Tour. All Rights Reserved.")
- Not unusual enough to justify Fair Use so removed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Lions mating Denver Zoo.jpg - Contained vandalism over a year old (!!!)
- okay, how does that impact on its current status and licence? Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Una-lion.jpg - Derivative work; no FoP in the United States.
- Removed - I suppose I could research the age of the statue but I don't think it is an especially notable one, so will replace with one with suitable licence. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:45, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Flag of Sri Lanka.svg - Needs a verifiable source. Inappropriate authorship attribution (Zscout370 created only the derivative SVG, not the flag design).
- "'removed. Section is jammed full of images anyway Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:46, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Jerusalem-coat-of-arms.svg - Same as above (Eliyahu Koren created the coat of arms, per the summary. Cameltrade cannot release rights to a mere derivative.)
- "'removed. Section is jammed full of images anyway Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:46, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Cartercoatofarms.jpg - Bogus license. Creation date is not the same as date of author death. Who was the author? When did s/he die? What is the basis for claiming s/he has been dead 100+ years?
- "'removed. Low notablty anyway. Section is jammed full of images anyway Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:46, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See MOS:CAPTION regarding period usage. Эlcobbola talk 14:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Flag of Sri Lanka.svg - Needs a verifiable source. Inappropriate authorship attribution (Zscout370 created only the derivative SVG, not the flag design).
- This simplifies things as the article is crammed full of images. I will happily get rid of a bunch of them. 06:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Keep, if the frankly fairly minor referencing issues & remaining image issues are sorted. Unlike most on this page this looks & feels like an FA to current standards. Really more sources should be moved down to "works cited", or those now there moved back to the notes section. But I wouldn't oppose on this. The pub name might be mentioned, but I don't agree more is needed on specifically Brit lion culture - almost every country uses lions in lots of ways & thinks they have a special relationship with them. Johnbod (talk) 15:27, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - How is work on this coming? Dana boomer (talk) 13:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gah! My free time is unpredictiable and I have some RL committments for the next two or three weeks. I need to fetch the Schaller book from the library and review some references. I need a stretch of free time where I can really sit down and review some consilidated bits. Until then I can tinker with it a little (remove some images, replace some Reliable sources etc.). This one is long but is closer to keeping FA status than some others I've worked on. I am also trying to help on Tasmanian devil which is further down the production line... Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Still too many images that seem to have been dropped in since the FAC and need to go. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know. Luckily, many ones with questionable copyright status make for straightforward removal. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:35, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update - I will get the Schaller book from the library this week, to double check numbers and sourcing (can't see the right pages on google preview :( ) Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey Cas, I know you're busy with your ArbCom candidacy, but how is work coming along on this? Dana boomer (talk) 15:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I finally pulled out the book yesterday and double checking. Not sure how long it will take. I'll say three weeks at the outer. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- tigerhomes.org source now replaced. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Any update on this, Cas? Dana boomer (talk) 13:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've pinged Casliber to ask that very question. For my money, the article looks good - but I can pitch in on some of the minor lingering items, if there are any. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 19:46, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- One of my biggest dilemmas is what to do about the Interspecific_predatory_relationships section. It needs going over and I have wondered whether it is just too much detail for this page. If we keep it, we need to review the references for it.
- Boring stuff still to do. Format refs to "Smith, John; " where possible from "Smith J" etc. A few of these...
- one dead link (groan)
- Fixed that... Courcelles 22:27, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
All help appreciated :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:04, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Some progress on the links and images. I replaced the range map with the old one from the time of promotion, fixed the dead links, and fixed some of the redirects. It's tedious work. --Andy Walsh (talk) 05:10, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- yeah, it is a little bit. I will do some more in the next day or so. I do think we are heading towards keep territory, but to be fair need a little bit of housekeeping to do yet. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Could we get an update on how this is going? The review is quickly approaching six months at FAR, and there has been no activity on this page for over a month. Dana boomer (talk) 19:12, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- My (involved) vote is for leaning keep pending any changes pointed out by independent reviewers. I would like some guidance from outside voices over whether to keep or remove Interspecific_predatory_relationships. If we keep it, i'll have a go at improving that segment, which I haven't done as I wondered whether it was too much detail for an already large article. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:10, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've just been through it again and I recommend keep. A small worklist can be compiled for future consideration, but that is true of any FA. Cas, I think the section you mention should go—it seems to needlessly stretch the scope of the article. --Andy Walsh (talk) 18:43, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I would keep the section, tighten it (if you hate losing the content do a daughter), move it up right after hunting, and rename it "predator competition". It's really kind of a cool section, but the title is a turnoff.TCO (talk) 06:26, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Now why didn't I think of that? Okay, done.
I will look at streamlining content if I can.done some trimming. tightened up the prose...actually upon reading it again I like the subject matter. Anyway, I am feeling better about it and the article as a whole. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:59, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Now why didn't I think of that? Okay, done.
- Comment - A couple minor things that need to be taken care of, and then I think this can be closed:
- A couple of "not in citation given" tags.
- they are duplicated ones of ref 147 where the source has obviously deleted the page. I'll try and find an alternative today. If not I'll remove (which is a bit of a pity) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- update - the WAZA site has been rejigged. One has to click on the "In the Zoo" button to see all the zoo stats in the ref. Not sure how to explain in the inline though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps a "note=" field that says something like "click on "In the Zoo" to see zoo statistics"? Dana boomer (talk) 14:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- A mix of British and American spelling (meter/metre, behavior/behaviour, etc).
- converted to british all colours, meters and -izes. Did you see any others? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm still seeing a bunch of "behavior" (shouldn't British spelling be "behaviour"?). Also "defense" ("defence")? And "neighbor" ("neighbour")? Dana boomer (talk) 14:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I tackled 8 "Behaviors", 1 "defense", and 1 "neighbor". I left one behavior in a reference (It's how the title is spelled in the original work) and one in a piped link (why bother with the redirect). UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Dang, well spotted! Yes I'd keep the original spellings in the refs. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I tackled 8 "Behaviors", 1 "defense", and 1 "neighbor". I left one behavior in a reference (It's how the title is spelled in the original work) and one in a piped link (why bother with the redirect). UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm still seeing a bunch of "behavior" (shouldn't British spelling be "behaviour"?). Also "defense" ("defence")? And "neighbor" ("neighbour")? Dana boomer (talk) 14:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- converted to british all colours, meters and -izes. Did you see any others? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Have all of the image issues above been taken care of?
- yes Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Once these are taken care of, the article should be good to go. Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 19:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, at long last. I don't see any other lingering issues, apart from those noted by Dana Boomer. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.