Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

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For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you are new, try the Wikipedia:Teahouse instead. Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead use Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent. Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here. Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. If opening a close appeal, use {{RfC closure review}} When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search) Start a new discussion

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There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

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Administrative discussions

ANI thread concerning Yasuke

(Initiated 19 days ago on 2 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents § Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues has continued to grow, including significant portions of content discussion (especially since Talk:Yasuke was ec-protected) and accusations of BLP violations, among other problems. Could probably be handled one sub-discussion at a time. --JBL (talk) 17:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Closure review of The Telegraph RfC

(Initiated 13 days ago on 9 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard § RfC closure review request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues's discussion seems to have died down. Hopefully I've put this in the correct section. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is a huge headache. I'll keep working on it as I have time, but if somebody else wants to close this before I do, I won't complain. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 02:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

RFA2024, Phase II discussions

Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

• (Initiated 81 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
• (Initiated 78 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
• (Initiated 78 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA

Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Gigi Hadid#RfC: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

(Initiated 59 days ago on 23 May 2024) Last response was 50 days ago. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:RSN#RfC: The Times of India

(Initiated 34 days ago on 17 June 2024) Discussion appears ready for a close. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:24, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Thomas Niedermayer#RfC: Article Lede: opening sentence and nature of death - should the opening sentence be changed to "Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA"?

(Initiated 18 days ago on 4 July 2024) - Consensus appears to have been reached with a 6-to-1 WP:AVALANCHE. RfC has been open a little over a week and all participants but one are in agreement. BRMSF (talk) 16:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

6 !votes within 8 days is not in SNOW close territory. There's no rush to close this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It has been over two weeks now, and a consensus seems to have been achieved; thus far only a single person objects to the proposed revised wording. BRMSF (talk) 15:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Total
CfD	0	0	3	15	18
TfD	0	0	0	6	6
MfD	0	0	0	2	2
FfD	0	0	0	0	0
RfD	0	0	4	17	21
AfD	0	0	0	0	0

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 12#IRC +10414

(Initiated 56 days ago on 26 May 2024) This RfD has been open for over a month. SevenSpheres (talk) 20:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Requested_move_24_May_2024

(Initiated 58 days ago on 24 May 2024) Originally closed 3 June 2024, relisted following move review on 17 June 2024 (34 days ago). Last comment was only 2 days ago, but comments have been trickling in pretty slowly for weeks. Likely requires a decently experienced closer. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 01:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

(Initiated 55 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Srebrenica massacre#Requested_move_2_June_2024

(Initiated 50 days ago on 2 June 2024), Tom B (talk) 09:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 Nuseirat_rescue operation#Proposed_merge_of_Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre_into_2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation

(Initiated 43 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 111#When can titles contain "massacre"?

(Initiated 36 days ago on 16 June 2024), last comment was 24 June 2024. Is there consensus in this discussion (if any) on when the word "massacre" is appropriate in an article, especially from a WP:NPOv perspective.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024 July#ABC News (United States)

(Initiated 18 days ago on 4 July 2024) No new comments in a few days. May be ripe for closure. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

PC2 for Mangoeater targets

Moved to Wikipedia:Administrator's noticeboard/PC2 for Mangoeater targets

Request for interaction ban-lift

About two months ago, I accepted a ban on interacting with User:Tristan noir.[1] Tristan noir volunteered the same.[2][3] I volunteered for this, because the user had been harassing/undermining me on numerous articles, and seemed to have no other purpose on Wikipedia (almost every edit the user made was to this end). I figured that if I just got him/her banned from following me around various articles, he/she would probably stop editing Wikipedia entirely, and then I could go about my normal practice of improving Wikipedia articles on (classical) Japanese literature. My assumption appeared to be correct, as once the ban was in place the user refrained from making any edits at all.

This worked until about two weeks ago, when I happened to edit[4] an article that I wasn't aware the user had also edited two months before.[5][6][7] The user almost immediately posted a message to the admin who had put the ban in place, and complained about my edit.[8] My edit had nothing whatsoever to do with his/her previous edit, and I made no indication that I was attempting to undermine his/her edit. The user, though, appears to have been watching my edits (or at least that page, although that seems unlikely given his other claim of me breaching the ban) and waiting to get me blocked if I ever edited that page.

The admin sent me a warning[9] and told me that, even though the original wording of the ban had been to refrain from editing articles that the other was "working on"[10], this now applied even to edits made two months after the other party had made a minor edit to the article. I had been very clear[11][12] when I initially took the ban (I stress voluntarily) that I did not expect to be treated like I had been banned for disruptive behaviour; the admin's applying harsher restrictions on me over a month later, when I had not in fact breached the original ban, therefore seems inappropriate. I understand that the admin may have misunderstood the situation of the article in question, and it is not his/her fault in the matter.

Apparently emboldened by the belief that I would be automatically banned from ever editing an article that he/she had touched, the user then became active on Wikipedia again, and set to work making mostly minor edits to numerous (13 and counting) articles on classical Japanese literature, which is my preferred field.[13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25] The user had previously only ever edited such articles in order to insert references to otherwise non-notable modern American poets, and as far as I can remember those articles could be counted on one hand, but he/she suddenly became highly prolific when told that I was not allowed edit any article that he/she had ever touched. When I made some edits to a couple of those articles, the user immediately told on me again[26], and I was blocked for 24 hours.[27] The admin also further emphasized the new strict restraints on my ban.[28] While it might look like I followed the user to the latter set of articles (though not the first one, so the initial warning was essentially invalid), the fact is that my edits[29][30][31] were all completely benign and did not mark an "interaction" with the user in question. They had no impact whatsoever on what he/she wrote, and in fact, one of those edits[32] was primarily made to wikilink a relevant article I had just created, and I even took care to maintain his/her prose despite it not matching the article I had started.

I requested[33] an unblock, given these circumstances, but my request was rejected by a second admin based on my having been in breach of a technicality in the interaction ban.[34] The first admin did, however, recommend that I come here to request a lift of the ban.[35]

So here I am.

I am not in any way interested in going back to "interacting" with Tristan noir. However, I need this interaction ban to be lifted (or at least lightened) so that I don't have to check every time I edit an article in my preferred field to see if he/she has edited it first, and don't have to fear getting blocked because of minor technicalities. My interaction ban was initially imposed because I asked for it, and I have since come to realize that it is having the opposite of the positive impact I expected. It is preventing me from fixing these and similar articles, and in fact allows Tristan noir much more freedom than it does me (I have no interest in going around "claiming" articles in his/her special field), despite the ban initially being proposed in order to restrain his/her activities. Most of Tristan noir's recent edits have been benign or somewhat positive. If he/she keeps up this kind of edit, I would be happy to edit the same articles as him/her in a peaceable manner; but under the current ban, I am immediately blocked every time I edit an article that Tristan noir has ever touched.

elvenscout742 (talk) 06:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Question: as far as I am aware, interaction bans normally do not prohibit the accidental and non-controversial editing of the same articles. Why was this one interpreted/enforced in this uncommonly strict way? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

That was my understanding as well, but apparently it was not Tristan noir's, so when he complained about my edit to Mokichi Saitō, Drmies told me off and reverted my edit, even though that edit had been both accidental and non-controversial. In reality I think it was more of a breach for him to be closely following my edits and to immediately complain when I did something he didn't like. But the technicalities of this ban means he is allowed do that and not get blocked, while I am not allowed to edit any of the above pages unless I want to get blocked. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

After looking through contributions, I note that with the exception of Uta monogatari and two related articles, Tristan hasn't been editing pages that look like Japanese poetry until very recently. Were that not the case, your argument would collapse, but it strongly buttresses your case. Meanwhile, you're editing in topics that I can see you were doing at least as far back as 2008. More interestingly, Tristan violated the ban by editing the Mokichi Saitō after you'd done it; complaining about an interaction ban violation and immediately proceeding to do the same thing is a good indicator of lack of good faith. His request to Drmies to sanction you is a good enough warning to himself; I've blocked him for 24 hours for violating his ban. Now: why would he be aware that you'd edited these pages if he weren't watching you? And why would he begin to edit in a completely new field so suddenly? The first question means that he's not leaving you alone, and the second means that you're right about him trying to block you. For this reason, I support unbanning you but leaving his ban in place. Nyttend (talk) 07:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Nytend's proposal, undo the topic ban on Elvenscout only, leaving the topic ban on Tristan in place. My analysis is the same, Tristan violated the ban, not Elvenscout. GregJackP Boomer! 12:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support removing Elvenscout's interaction ban and retaining Tristan's, per Nyttend's analysis (with which I concur). I would also recommend increasing Tristan's block to indef, for wikihounding and gaming the system. Yunshui 雲‍水 13:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Nyttends proposal. Pass a Method talk 14:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support per Nyttend's analysis, with the admonishment to elvenscout742 to continue staying away from initiating interaction with Tristan as he/she has been doing. Zad68 14:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. I was not made aware until now of any violation by Tristan. If I had, I would have taken the exact same action I took against Elvenscout. You'll note that the terms of the ban included not editing the same articles (not the same field) because that was part of Elvenscout's original complaint (and it's still part of his complaint--the "undermining" references). Let me add something, if I may: that the ban was voluntary, certainly on Elvenscout's part, is immaterial for the terms of the ban, but shows Elvenscout's good will (which I never doubted), and I was and am more sympathetic to their side than to Tristan's, whose good faith back in November I wasn't completely sure of, but the way the cookie crumbled at ANI, for better or for worse, was the interaction ban with no further actions taken against Tristan. (I hope I am remembering all this correctly, and EdJohnston looked over the terms of the ban as well.) If, as it appears (haven't looked at the diffs yet), Tristan broke the terms too (whether they did it first or not is immaterial) then a block is justified, of course. If I missed, somehow or somewhere, that it was brought to my attention, I am very sorry for it.

  So, if the consensus here turns out to be that Tristan is in fact hounding Elvenscout (something which I did not disagree with at the ANI thread and in conversation with Elvenscout) and their behavior is disruptive enough for an indef block, possibly a ban de facto or de jure, I have no problem with that (or with a continued injunction for Tristan to stay away from Elvenscout, and not vice versa). And let me point out, speaking of crumbling cookies, that the ANI thread could already have ended with that had more editors/admins weighed in. As it was, Anthonyhcole agreed with Elvenscout's charge, but that isn't enough in an ANI discussion to lead to such a drastic solution; the proposed and agreed-upon interaction ban was reasonable given the discussion. We've already had more admin commentary here in less than a day than we had at the ANI discussion that ran for two weeks. I could give you my thoughts on why that went the way it did, but that's mustard after the meal, as the Dutch would say. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, it looks to me as if you were fed a rather disingenuous story by Tristan — you didn't know because he didn't tell you. Another sign of bad faith and gaming the system by Tristan, it seems to me: Elvenscout is giving the whole story (I investigated and found nothing substantial that was missing or misrepresented), but Tristan gave only the tiniest threads necessary to show that a ban was violated, with nothing about what he happened to be doing or why he happened to know about Elvenscout's actions. Nyttend (talk) 17:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't doubt it, Nyttend, and I wish that we had had more involvement in the ANI thread: Elvenscout had suggested to me some problems with Tristan's editing (which included a suspicion of involvement with a now-indef blocked editor--don't remember the name, but I'm sure Elvenscout does, and again I hope I'm remembering this correctly) after we got to work on Tanka in English. BTW, the situation on Mokichi Saitō is not so simple since Tristan was indeed the first of the two to edit it; it was Elvenscout revert of those edits that prompted my first warning. Drmies (talk) 18:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I have been avoiding further comment here to avoid jinxing it (this is the first really positive input I've had with a problem that has been bugging me since September, and I thank you all!), but I need to clarify something: My edit to Mokichi Saitō was not a "reversion" of TN's edit.[36][37] I mostly just cleaned up the refs. This is why I complained when Drmies reverted my edit, although I understand that TN was probably the one who misled Drmies into believing my edit had been in bad faith (it wouldn't be the first time). My edit was not an "interaction" with TN. TN's more recent edits, however, were obviously made in direct response to mine. Therefore, it seems reasonable that their edits should be taken as at least as much of a violation as mine. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• One-way IBANs don't work. A broad TBAN for Tristan would be a better solution. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• No objection to that. Whatever's the best way to un-sanction a good contributor without permitting additional disruption from a problematic one. Nyttend (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Just for clarity's sake (if someone can do this better in terms of lay-out, go ahead and tweak). IBAN for Tristan, supported by Nyttend, GregJackP, Yunshui, Pass a Method, Zad68. Indef block for Tristan: Yunshui. TBAN for Tristan: Nathan Johnson, Nyttend. I support any unban of Elvenscout and any kind of ban for Tristan at this moment. Drmies (talk) 21:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I think if we are going to count GregJackP one way or the other, we need clarification. There seems to have been a misunderstanding, as neither of us was ever under a de jure TBAN, but my main problem now is that Tristan has been creating a de facto TBAN for me. GregJackP, though, seems to be in favour of a TBAN for Tristan. elvenscout742 (talk) 17:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd support a topic ban as well as/instead of an IBAN; Nathan's argument makes sense. Am I really the only one angling for an indef block? God, I'm an inhuman monster... Yunshui 雲‍水 23:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

If it means anything, I'd support an indef block. Tristan noir has essentially been following me for five months now, and the only edits he ever made to Wikipedia before that were to an article he created that I can't even show you because it was blocked for being a blatant copyright violation. But honestly a poetry ban would probably work just as well, since he'll stop editing altogether once he is told he's not allowed hound me anymore. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support lifting of all bans on User:Elvenscout742 and imposing topic ban on User:Tristan noir. Nyttend's analysis looks watertight to me, and it seems clear that Tristan noir has been hounding Elvenscout742 and laying traps in the hope of either provoking an inadvertent interaction ban breach or preventing the editing of a large number of items. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Response: My comments here may be wasted effort. It appears that Elvenscout742’s request above to modify or lift the interaction ban that we mutually volunteered to accept has now, through the zeal of various editors, been transformed into a general indictment of this user. That nine editors have cast a vote before waiting for my reply strongly suggests that any argument I offer is destined to fall upon deaf ears. I did not intend to try the patience of those present by my tardiness but my appearance was briefly delayed by my being placed under a 24 hour editing ban by Nyttend within one hour of Elvenscout’s opening of this appeal at WP:ANI. That troubled me briefly, as it seemed effectually to grant Elvenscout 24 hours to build a consensus while I struggled to dislodge the gag from my mouth, but c’est la vie where, in love as in war, all is fair. Nevertheless, let me attempt a summary, in good faith, of the situation as I see it.

1) The terms of the interaction ban were set by the closing administrator, Drmies, and not by me. The terms of that ban, as Drmies can testify, departed slightly from WP:IBAN in specifying that neither user was allowed to edit an article that the other user was “working on.” I read Drmies’ original ban and understood it. Elvenscout, by his own admission, read it “differently.”

2) Elvenscout violated these terms, as he himself admits, with an edit to Mokichi Saitō. He asserts that his edit was benign and that there was no cause for this user to complain to an administrator. What he conveniently neglects to report is that my complaint involved two edits. The other edit specifically references this user by name, in clear violation of the interaction ban, and merely regurgitates personal attacks he had made regarding me on various pages. I specifically did not ask Drmies in my complaint to ban Elvenscout; I simply asked if he would remind Elvenscout of the terms so that we might all proceed down our separate roads amicably. In the past few days, Elvenscout on his talk page here, here and here might be viewed as having violated the interaction ban yet again by referencing this user by name and recycling old personal attacks against me.

3) One or two editors above assert that I have been wikihounding Elvenscout and gaming the system. Elvenscout has offered no diffs to demonstrate that this is the case nor has any other party to this discussion. It appears that said editors are merely blindly accepting Elvenscout’s allegations at face value. The diffs I offer immediately above and below this paragraph show that if anyone is guilty of hounding or gaming, it is Elvenscout.

4) Elvenscout’s representation that I followed him “around various articles” is made without evidence. His recent 24 hour editing ban, however, came about as a result of his following me directly to five different articles, not one of which he’d edited previously, as documented in my complaint here. This is the same behavior that Elvenscout exhibited with me previously and is one of the chief reasons I volunteered to accept an interaction ban originally. Without dredging up the entire, sad history, I offer only a few examples of Elvenscout’s pre-interaction ban hounding. I attempted to disengage myself from earlier controversies with Elvenscout with an edit on Sept 18 of Haibun but was promptly tracked there by Elvenscout with this edit on Sept 21. Similarly, I offered an edit on Oct 6 of Prosimetrum but was shadowed there, within hours, by this edit of Elvenscout’s. In each instance, Elvenscout had never edited the articles previously and in each instance he engaged this user, and other participating editors, in lengthy talk-page debates that, with subsequent Rfcs and dispute resolutions initiated by him, further disrupted progress on the articles in question.

5) Elvenscout makes much ado about my absence from editing Wikipedia from Dec 9 until Jan 20. He is entitled to his speculations, of course, but I don’t see why his idle daydreaming should be granted any particular weight in this discussion. No one is required to do more than they wish to do here at Wikipedia; all editing is voluntary.

6) Elvenscout complains above that the interaction ban (and specifically Drmies’ decision that neither party was to edit an article the other editor had previously edited) somehow favors this user while excessively inhibiting him. I’ve edited 13 articles (by Elvenscout’s count) since imposition of the interaction ban. A look at his edit history will show that he has edited considerably more. I will allow him to be his own accountant. My point, however, is that I’m thereby restricted from a much larger group of articles than is E. due to E’s prolific editing. And I am not whining about it.

7) Elvenscout above implies that my editing of 13 articles in his “preferred field, classical Japanese literature,” somehow impinges upon his freedom. That he had not chosen to edit these articles prior to my doing so may call into question exactly how he has been constrained, but . . . . He also repeatedly remarks that I am somehow “claiming” these articles as my own. I’ve done nothing of the kind and, where editors other than Elvenscout have worked upon the same articles, I’ve had no complaints (and no controversies). No article on Wikipedia is the possession of any party, and much less does anyone hold a deed to his preferred field. Classical Japanese literature is somewhat larger, by my estimate, than a modest 13 articles and Elvenscout has room, and more than enough of it, to edit to his heart’s content.

8) Nyttend’s argument above that I only recently began editing Japanese articles and that Elvenscout has done so since 2008 seems beside the point. Is seniority a factor in determining the issue here, viz., whether or not an interaction ban should be lifted or modified?

9)The 24 hour editing block that Nyttend placed me under at or about the same time that he offered his argument above was for edits to Mokichi Saitō that, in his judgment, violated the interaction ban. The fact, however, is that I first edited that article, that Drmies with his warning to Elvenscout reverted the same’s transgressing edit, and that I therefore believed, given the terms Drmies had previously stipulated, that I was free to continue to edit that article. As an aside, while Nyttend subsequently reverted my edits at Mokichi Saitō, he allowed the offending edit by Elvenscout to stand (since Elvenscout had unilaterally taken it upon himself to revert Drmies’ previous revert of the same). That, along with the timing of the block that has delayed my response, call into question Nyttend’s neutrality in this matter.

10) Drmies, above, refers to “a suspicion of [Tristan’s] involvement with a now-indef blocked editor.” I’m not certain where that odd tidbit came from, but I do not now nor have I had in the past any involvement with anyone indefinitely blocked.

If I’ve neglected anything in my comments, I’m confident that I can rely upon my old friend Elvenscout to point it out.Tristan noir (talk) 11:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Just responding to points where you mention me. (8) Elvenscout obviously was editing in this field before the ban, but you essentially weren't. I brought it up simply because it's part of the evidence that you're following him around and trying to get in his way. (9) You got Elvenscout blocked for editing an article you'd edited; what do you expect to happen when you edit an article he's edited? Who created the page is irrelevant; it's the fact that you're sticking to the letter of the law and ignoring its spirit, a course of action that's generally seen as problematic. One final thing: I know absolutely nothing of Japanese poetry; the only reason that I got involved here was this thread. I was convinced that Elvenscout was in the right and you in the wrong, both because of Elvenscout's arguments and because I investigated and saw his statements to be true; I've never heard of either of you before, as far as I can remember, so I couldn't be biased or think better of one of you beforehand. Nyttend (talk) 12:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I see, Nyttend, how in good faith you may have misinterpreted the editing situation with respect to Mokichi Saitō and judged at that time that your 24 hour block was just. However, Drmies, with this edit two days ago, informed you that the situation with respect to that article was indeed as I described it and contrary to how Elvenscout has misrepresented the facts here. And yet you continue to impute bad faith (immediately above) to me on this score and continue to believe that the block, despite the clear history that Drmies offered you, was justified. More disturbing, however, is that you limit your comments to points I made about you and ignore the substantial evidence I provided above of Elvenscout's questionable edits and behavior.Tristan noir (talk) 22:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

(EDIT CONFLICT) I don't know why I even need to bother at this point, since everyone present knows what's going on, but I will attempt to briefly explain TN's above misrepresentations anyway.

• • • The terms of the interaction ban were set by the closing administrator, Drmies, and not by me. The terms of that ban, as Drmies can testify, departed slightly from WP:IBAN in specifying that neither user was allowed to edit an article that the other user was “working on.” I read Drmies’ original ban and understood it. Elvenscout, by his own admission, read it “differently.” Yes, I read it as meaning what it says: if TN "has been working on" an article, I am not allowed show up suddenly and begin editing it, which would be a clear interaction. One short series of edits several months earlier does not count as "being working on", and my making a benign edit to clean up the citations a bit does not count as an inappropriate interaction. At least in my reading.
    • The other edit specifically references this user by name, in clear violation of the interaction ban, and merely regurgitates personal attacks he had made regarding me on various pages. I specifically did not ask Drmies in my complaint to ban Elvenscout; I simply asked if he would remind Elvenscout of the terms so that we might all proceed down our separate roads amicably. I didn't mention it (except in a parenthetical statement) because I felt it was irrelevant to my request to be allowed edit articles on classical Japanese literature. (Did I not say "that seems unlikely given his other claim of me breaching the ban"?[38] I also provided the diff, so that anyone reading could judge TN's words for themselves.) I did, however, point out that TN's noticing my edits to completely unrelated pages indicates that he spent the two months he was not editing articles closely following my edits. The fact is that it was not a violation of an interaction ban with TN, because it was a direct response to another user who brought TN up without knowing the facts. That user has since been blocked indefinitely for harassing/threatening me.
    • One or two editors above assert that I have been wikihounding Elvenscout and gaming the system. Elvenscout has offered no diffs to demonstrate that this is the case nor has any other party to this discussion. By my count I have provided 33 diffs in my above post. TN's edit history clearly indicates that, when told he was not allowed interact with me, he stopped editing for well over a month, and his first edit upon returning was to complain about me.[39][40][41] Shortly thereafter he started editing prolifically[42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58] [59][60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67][68][69] [70][71][72][73][74][75][76][77][78][79][80][81][82], in an area he knows I am interested in (no diffs -- just look at Talk:Uta monogatari/Archive 1 and Talk:Tanka prose for myriad examples of me showing TN my reverence for this area -- well, just the first time we interacted maybe[83]). He must also recall that I created the article on uta monogatari[84], and he recently attempted to block me from editing the article on the second most famous uta monogatari, Yamato Monogatari.[85][86][87] Why did TN suddenly become so interested in classical Japanese literature when he was told I was not allowed to edit articles that he have edited? And why, when he had only edited around 10 articles in his previous four years on Wikipedia, did he suddenly edit 13 such articles in the space of a week?
    • Elvenscout makes much ado about my absence from editing Wikipedia from Dec 9 until Jan 20. One has to admit, it is suspicious that between August 2008 and September 2012, TN made only about 30 edits, all to the same article, then when I edited that article he suddenly started editing on an almost daily basis, interacting with me constantly, and then he suddenly stopped editing for close to two months.
    • Elvenscout complains above that the interaction ban ... somehow favors this user while excessively inhibiting him. Yes, I do. And I specify the reason. I am not interested in "claiming" articles that I am not interested just to spite TN. His actions over the last few days clearly indicate that he is. Therefore, while TN is not prohibited from editing in his favourite area (apparently modern English poetry) at all, I am currently banned from touching the 14 or so articles on Japanese literature that he has edited.
    • Elvenscout above implies that my editing of 13 articles in his “preferred field, classical Japanese literature,” somehow impinges upon his freedom. That he had not chosen to edit these articles prior to my doing so may call into question exactly how he has been constrained, but . . . . He also repeatedly remarks that I am somehow “claiming” these articles as my own. I’ve done nothing of the kind Which other editors has TN allowed to edit? The early history of the article at Uta monogatari clearly showed (at least until it got blocked for CO violations) that while TN will allow edits he likes, he will not allow edits he doesn't like. And this post clearly indicates that he doesn't want me editing these pages, regardless of how benign my edits were. Did he intend to add a link to Tōnomine Shōshō Monogatari to the article on Fujiwara no Takamitsu himself? Or would he have allowed another user to introduce that wikilink at some time down the line (who knows how many years that could take)? What is wrong with me introducing the link immediately? Given that the previous article I created was shortly accused of being an orphan, surely it is natural to want to link the article to its most obvious partner?
    • Nyttend’s argument above that I only recently began editing Japanese articles and that Elvenscout has done so since 2008 seems beside the point. Actually, I agree that seniority is not so important here. That is why I didn't point out that actually my first edit to Wikipedia under this account back in 2005 (I edited anonymously for a while) was about Japanese literature (interpreted broadly, if the Kojiki is literature). However, the fact is that TN only started editing these articles immediately upon being told that he could block me from editing them. I don't know why he thought he could get away with such blatant gaming of the system, or why he thought I would not appeal the ban under such circumstances.
    • The 24 hour editing block that Nyttend placed me under at or about the same time that he offered his argument above was for edits to Mokichi Saitō that, in his judgment, violated the interaction ban. The fact, however, is that I first edited that article, that Drmies with his warning to Elvenscout reverted the same’s transgressing edit, and that I therefore believed, given the terms Drmies had previously stipulated, that I was free to continue to edit that article. Ummm... actually, as I have stated numerous times now, my initial edit was not a violation because it was an accident. It was made two months after TN's most recent edit.[88][89] The edit that got TN blocked, however, was made nine hours after my most recent edit, and not long before he contacted Drmies making it clear that he was aware of my most recent edit and was unapologetic about editing the article nonetheless.[90][91][92]
    • Drmies, above, refers to “a suspicion of [Tristan’s] involvement with a now-indef blocked editor.” I’m not certain where that odd tidbit came from, but I do not now nor have I had in the past any involvement with anyone indefinitely blocked. I have already posted on Drmies' talk page about that. Basically, he was confusing TN's meatpuppet Kujakupoet with the now-banned user who bizarrely cited TN in a dispute I was having with him, User:JoshuSasori. Also, it might be noted that TN was clearly reading my page User:Elvenscout742/JoshuSasori rebuttal, as he referred to it in his first edit of this year.[93] So he was clearly at least aware of my dispute with JoshuSasori.

And that, my friends, is why the previous ANI (and numerous other earlier attempts to deal with this problem) failed: TN posted a massive diatribe against me, taking various facts out of context, forcing me to respond in an equally lengthy post.[94][95][96][97][98][99] It's a good thing some good admins were able to follow this problem before this happened this time. elvenscout742 (talk) 13:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

And the above complaint of a “massive diatribe” from yours truly, my friends, is further evidence of Elvenscout’s hypocrisy. Read the prior ANI at your own risk and you will discover how Elvenscout can, by sheer doggedness, talk friend and foe alike to death.

Or look at the simple evidence before you here. Elvenscout has contributed eight posts and nearly 3000 words to this ANI thread. This is my third post and I’ve yet to hit the 1500 mark. True, he did have the minor advantage of a 24 hour headstart. How has he used it? To argue in self-serving fashion that Japanese literature “broadly construed” is his “preferred field” and one that others should not be allowed to trespass. One might humor his flawed logic if he were not on the verge of convincing others here that Japanese literature as broadly construed is indeed his personal possession.Tristan noir (talk) 22:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• My misremembering an association with a blocked editor (Elvenscout has cleared this up on my talk page already) has no bearing on this dispute: if Tristan had been associated with such an editor that wouldn't change the facts of the matter. I mentioned it to indicate that early on I was already convinced that one side in this ongoing dispute was more right than the other, not to taint the other side. Drmies (talk) 14:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Break for convenience

Regarding the block, I don't generally see this kind of situation as an interaction worthy of a block, but in this situation, Tristan had seen it as an interaction, and since everyone should be treated as equals, I decided to respond to the situation on Tristan's terms. I would have hesitated anyway if I'd not been convinced that Tristan was editing in bad faith. Can we declare right now that Elvenscout is unbanned and then return to Tristan? Nyttend (talk) 15:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I think that consensus was already pretty-well established. I am sure Tristan doesn't want to see me unbanned, but this isn't his decision. How does unbanning work? elvenscout742 (talk) 09:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

We say, "you're unbanned," and you are. Since I think I'm right in saying that all commentators so far have accepted that elvenscout should be free to edit again, I think it's safe to assume that the consensus is precisely that. You may freely edit articles on which Tristan has been working (although use your common sense and try and avoid getting into another spat with him - if you find yourself heading that way, ask for help). If anyone disagrees, this would be a good time to say so. As for Tristan, I've already said my piece, but the consensus seems to be to allow him to edit under some sort of ban - I'd propose a broadly-construed topic ban on articles relating to Japanese literature, myself. Yunshui 雲‍水 11:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

That seems good. No one has been arguing for a narrow TBAN, but Nyttend mentioned Japanese "poetry" a few times. Banning Tristan from only poetry articles seems inappropriate, though, since of the thirteen articles I mentioned above, only three or four could possibly be taken as "poetry" articles. Japanese literature (broadly-construed) sounds like a good idea. I am also worried that without an IBAN (and I agree a one-way IBAN is problematic), Tristan might follow me to, say, Talk:Tales of Moonlight and Rain#Requested move 2, but a Japanese literature ban would prevent this. elvenscout742 (talk) 17:31, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I misread what you said originally about Japanese literature, thinking that you'd said just poetry. No objections. Nyttend (talk) 20:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Earlier today, Elvenscout sought to assure Drmies here, contrary to my assertion in point 2 of my Response above, that he had never violated the interaction ban by referencing me on Wikipedia by name. His exact words there are as follows: Additionally, he has claimed that the other edit mentioned him by name: you will notice that nowhere in the prose of any past version of User:Elvenscout742/JoshuSasori rebuttal did I use TN's name.

This is typical of the misrepresentation of fact practised by Elvenscout and is further reason why participants here should look closely at the diffs I offered in my response. Elvenscout, as I reported to Drmies in my original complaint and as I reported on this thread, did indeed violate the ban not only my mentioning me by name but by launching a personal attack here on Jan. 19. His exact words in that edit, contrary to his denial before Drmies, were: This is a reference to a dispute I had with another user, whose activities on Wikipedia were limited almost entirely to posting spam links and the fringe theories of non-notable pseudo-scholars. The user had also continuously worked to undermine my edits to numerous articles on Japanese poetry and art, and continuously relied on ad hominem attacks against me rather than reliable sources. The hyperlink leads the reader directly to my contributions page and the whole remark is placed conveniently, lest the reader not get Elvenscout's point, under the clear sub-heading User:Tristan noir.

In a similar spirit, Elvenscout, in edits to his own talk page on Jan. 30 here, here and here, again violates the ban by referencing me directly while recycling for the thousandth time his old attacks against me.

These four instances, and the vitriol of the remarks made by Elvenscout in them, seriously call into question Elvenscout’s good faith and veracity.Tristan noir (talk) 23:47, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

If memory serves, Tristan mentioned my name four times in his block appeal, so why is he allowed mention me by name and not vice versa? elvenscout742 (talk) 06:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I looked through contributions and followed links carefully, not knowing whether to trust Elvenscout or to disbelieve him because I'd never heard of you or him. This includes edits that I checked because I felt like it even though nobody had linked them; if Elvenscout were trying to frame you, I would have caught it. Yes, Elvenscout's comments are rather long, but why do you look at the speck of sawdust in Elvenscout's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to him, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from his eye. Nyttend (talk) 23:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I recognize this logion of Yeshua’s from my visits to Sunday School, Nyttend, and I will thank you for reminding me of it. We are all sinners. I wish, however, that you would address my remarks immediately above, since they, like my initial response which you seem largely to have ignored, are pertinent to any argument being made about lifting or modifying an interaction ban.Tristan noir (talk) 01:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Tell me Tristan: can you demonstrate that your activities on Wikipedia were not limited almost entirely to posting spam links and the fringe theories of non-notable pseudo-scholars?? How would you have me respond, when another user who knows nothing of our interaction attempts to misrepresent me as a disruptive user by pointing to your negative interaction with me? Should I just ignore it?? What about when that other user is threatening my real-world career and basing it purely on a misunderstanding about my motives? Or, did I accidentally threaten your real-world career by deleting the advertisements you posted on Haibun[100], Haiga[101], Tanka prose etc.?? If so, I apologize, but you really shouldn't have posted those links to Wikipedia in the first place, as WP:SPAM and WP:OVERLINK, as well as WP:ELNO, are quite clear on that. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Elvenscout, I’m sympathetic to the straights you were placed in by Joshu Sasori’s real-life threat and I agree that his indefinite block for making that threat was justified. What was not excuseable, and what was a direct violation of WP:IBAN, was your dragging my name into your conflict with another user and, while doing so, taking the opportunity to attack me personally yet again. So, I’m sorry about your problem with the other user. Beyond that, my above comments stand.Tristan noir (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:52, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

As Tristan well knows from reading the page, I did not "drag his name" into anything. What he above calls "the clear sub-heading User:Tristan noir" is not a sub-heading and he knows it. The page does not have original sub-headings as JoshuSasori's attack page did; it consists of a series of alternating quotations from JoshuSasori's page and my responses. The headings in the article contents are all JoshuSasori's original headings, but any other text he used has been marked as a quote. Since Tristan brought a specific edit I made to the page to the attention of Drmies, he must be aware that the code for the "sub-heading" as he calls it was "<blockquote>[[User:Tristan noir]] - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elvenscout742#Personal_Remarks]</blockquote> ".

I have now pointed this factoid out numerous times, and yet he has persisted in honing in on it rather than focusing on the problem. This is something he engaged in on Talk:Tanka in English and numerous other pages, where he will go off on rants about the publishing industry and completely ignore the actual content of my edits.[102][103][104][105][106][107][108] THIS is why I volunteered to initiate an interaction ban with him, a ban he broke when he started closely following my edits despite not making any of his own, and when he tricked Drmies into thinking that I had reverted his edits to the article Mokichi Saitō.

Also, this discussion of whether or not I violated an interaction ban is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Consensus was already established that the interaction ban never should have applied to me because I did not make any disruptive edits, and the interaction ban has already been lifted from me. Now we are trying to disuss what should be done with Tristan noir: I therefore would like to politely ask Tristan to refrain from any further discussion of my behaviour, and instead focus on telling those present why he should not be placed under a broad TBAN for his recent pattern of disruptive behaviour. Perhaps he should start by explaining to us why he made a pointy edit[109] to Tanka, a couple of spammy edits[110][111][112] to Haibun, and the now famous edits to Mokichi Saitō, but otherwise showed no interest whatsoever in JLit until told he could block me from editing those articles and suddenly edited thirteen JLit articles in the space of a week.

elvenscout742 (talk) 03:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I was unaware that you, Elvenscout, were directing traffic here. I thought you were merely another participant like me. Your "explanation" of your edits above, before you enter upon your Tristam Shandy-like digression, is amusing and disingenuous. Nevertheless, this discussion is open and ongoing. No one has formally closed it and no one has issued a ruling one way or the other. So, like it or not, your conduct, like my own, is open to review.Tristan noir (talk) 04:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Since not one commentator on this discussion (which has now been open for four days) has so much as suggested that elvenscout's IBAN be retained, I stand by my earlier statement, which I reiterate here for clarity: Elvenscout is, by community consensus, no longer banned from editing pages which have previously been edited by Tristan noir. The question now is whether or not to impose a topic ban, continued one-way interaction ban, or indefinite block on Tristan noir. Yunshui 雲‍水 08:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban/Interaction ban/Indef block of Tristan noir

Okay. I'm summarizing the above results in a table. If I can be forgiven for reading GregJackP's initial vote as being in favour of a TBAN (since he said "topic ban" twice, and seems to have simply misread Nyttend's proposal), and taking both Nyttend and Drmies as now supporting "any of the above" (whatever the majority consensus otherwise would be), it goes as follows:

One-way IBAN	"Japanese literature" TBAN	Indef block	Any of the above
Pass a Method	GregJackP	Yunshui	Nyttend
Zad68	Nathan Johnson		Drmies
	Boing! said Zebedee

-- elvenscout742 (talk) 08:19, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I have contacted GregJackP for his approval on my above interpretation. He did say he supported Nyttend's initial proposal, which was specifically an IBAN, so I guess we shouldn't count him out for an IBAN just yet. Also, can we take the TBAN topic as being "Japanese literature"? elvenscout742 (talk) 08:26, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed count myself (is this a community consensus or, being AN, an admin thing?), but I must admit to an ulterior motive for being in favour of an indef block: if Tristan noir weren't still around, this redirect could finally be dealt with. It only exists because Tristan noir unilaterally derailed an AfD, and despite his promise he has made no attempt to perform the merge that was suggested. Thanks to Drmies's fixing the page, a merge is likely no longer possible. But none of the proposed solutions (other than indef) address this minor issue. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment #14 (and counting) by E. to this thread. I doubt that anyone here will object, Elvenscout, to your liberal offer to count yourself in the tally. Why not add your vote (or 14 votes, if you prefer) to your table above?Tristan noir (talk) 04:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of adding in a new heading since Elvenscout has had their topic ban lifted and the discussion has moved on to a discussion of sanctions that are to be applied to Tristan noir. I have no view in this matter, just merely making the threads easier to track. Blackmane (talk) 12:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I support a topic ban on Tristan, in the area of Japanese literature, broadly interpreted. GregJackP Boomer! 12:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Support some kind of action, elven shouldn't have to put up with nonsense, especially as elven is doing content development in an area that really requires a rare skillset on en.wp, consider my !vote to support any/all of the above. Zad68 21:43, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef block. I proposed the original mutual bans because the content disputes were distracting both from content creation. The lifting of bans for Elvenscout has been well explained and dealt with. As soon as the ban was imposed, TN disappeared after only two more minor edits in early December. With no further contributions of his own (but obviously all the while keeping a close eye on E's contributions) TN suddenly re-appeared out of the blue at the end of January to report a "gotcha" breach to Drmies. There's been a spurt of editing activity since to suggest a "contribution" but I'm not convinced. The hounding alone is concerning enough. Time to shut this down and move on. Stalwart111 22:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The facts are quite simple. E and I both volunteered for an interaction ban that Stalwart111 first proposed. Further, E, as I’ve demonstrated in the diffs in my Response above, violated that ban by referencing me (and negatively) in his user’s space and on his talk page, contrary to WP:IBAN. Elvenscout also violated the letter and spirit of the ban by following me to five articles he’d not previously edited, contrary to the specific terms of the ban as stipulated by Drmies, and he did so within days of being directly warned by Drmies that such activity would lead to a block. All of this is documented in my Response, and this evidence remains unaddressed by E’s apologists here.Tristan noir (talk) 05:17, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

You hadn't made a single contribution since 9 December. On 19 January, E linked to your contributions to give a current dispute some context. A breach of the IBAN? Sure, maybe. But the very next day, you popped up again, having just happened to log back in the day after he made that edit? And you just happened to be looking through his edits? And you just happened to find the "gotcha" moment you reported? So my questions are these - how is that not hounding? And, how many times did you have to log in during that month-and-a-bit of zero edits to constantly trawl his contributions for mentions of you? Your 24-hour response time suggests at least once-a-day. But it doesn't really matter. Your wiki-stalking is far more serious and disruptive than a taken-out-of-context, context-giving link that might have breached a voluntary IBAN, in my opinion. And the other editors seem to agree, to the point where E's part of the ban has been lifted. Serious enough to finally confirm you are WP:NOTHERE to actually build an encyclopedia in a collegial manner. Serious enough to warrant a block. Stalwart111 08:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Harassment of User:Dmitri1999 for having contributed content to the site.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Seriously, now? Having professional photographers contribute their work is now grounds to delete his userpage - less than a day after the point was first raised, and before anyone could have dealt with it - see User_talk:Dmitri1999 for rather shocking unilateral behaviour on User:Hoary's part - and go around removing his photos from English Wikipedia because he dared to contribute high-quality photos, then mentioned "I can do this kind of work"?

One may say that's unfair. However, given the precipitous behaviour of deleting the userpage instead of treating the person like a human....

Look, no matter how bad the userpage was, the slightest bit of working with the individual would have likely kept us a talented photographer. Instead, it's already got to the point where he's asking for all his work to be removed, because of the systematic harassment campaign dedicated to removing his work.

Is this really what we want to do here? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 15:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and I am not surprised that he is pissed off. This could have been handled better.--ukexpat (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• This is not atypical on Wikipedia, it's widespread; I've seen several somewhat similar situations in just the last few days. We really need to change the way we deal with good-faith editors when we think they're doing something wrong. The reaction we shouldn't take is immediately kick them in the nuts with the justification "well, policy was being violated, I had to kick them in the nuts. Please show how they weren't violating policy". Have the policy discussion first, and the nut kicking will, 90 times out of a hundred, become unnecessary. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:IGNORANCE (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that some professional photographers may come here not with the primary goal of improving the encyclopedia, but because they see Wikipedia as a powerful promotional medium - and we do not allow that usage. (Of course it's not only photographers who thinlk this way, many businesses of all sorts attempt to use us for their own purposes.) To me, the key is this: if the person involved has it explained to them what we are about and how they can help – as seems to have happened here judging from their talk page – and instead of sticking around and contributing they take their ball and go home, then they were never here for the right reason to begin with. We do indeed need professional photographers, and experts of all kinds, but we need them on our terms, not on theirs. I see no "harrassment" here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Like  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  05:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Ken, WP:AGF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.241.58.251 (talk) 15:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

One assumes good faith until the evidence shows otherwise, as it did here. Keeping an open mind is good, but not so open that one's brains fall out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The point is not that I think Dmitri1999 is perfect, or innocent. The user page seems a bit promotional. It's also been there for more than 2 years, so there was no crisis that needed to be solved by its immediate deletion. The point is that it is unproductive to treat someone editing in good faith but making mistakes like dirt, order them to change, and then expect them to stick around and continue to help out. It's more productive to not treat them like dirt and ask them to change, and listen to their opinion too. At least try it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I have not much time, and will be back on Monday. But before I leave I would like to advise you, before giving (too) fast judgments, and talking of "good faith", to study the history of his contributions (and comments) in the last week or so, included the part of his Talk page that he deleted yesterday. After that, maybe you will change your mind. As a matter of fact, Hoary was the second or third admin ( plus several users like me) who had to deal with this guy in the last days. For me, this was a clear "nut kicking" case. Hoary did a great job, and if he had hesitated, I was ready to take this guy to the noticeboard for edit warring (after advice of another admin). Alex2006 (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The point is not that I think Dmitri1999 is perfect, or innocent. The fact that he was edit warring or getting upset at rude edit summaries and using even ruder edit summaries of his own, doesn't alter my point. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Aside from Dmitri1999 himself, the only user mentioned in the message that kicks off this thread is me; indeed, there's not even a reference to any unnamed users.

I infer that I am charged with:

1. Harassment of Dmitri1999 for having contributed content to the site
2. Deleting the user page of Dmitri1999 on the grounds that he is a professional photographer contributing his work
3. Rather shocking unilateral behaviour
4. Going around removing Dmitri1999's photos from English Wikipedia because he dared to contribute high-quality photos, then mentioned "I can do this kind of work"
5. Not treating the person using the username Dmitri1999 as a human
6. Failing to do the slightest bit of working with Dmitri1999
7. Conducting a systematic harassment campaign dedicated to removing the work of Dmitri1999

Quite a list. One at a time:

1. What "harassment"?
2. No. I deleted it because it was promotional (check for yourself in my log file). Or anyway this was my stated rationale. Of course, it's conceivable that I was and am lying about this. Am I charged with lying too?
3. Please specify the behaviour that you have in mind.
4. No. I removed some of Dmitri1999's photos for the reasons I gave in the edit summaries. Or anyway these were my stated rationales (see my second response, above). Incidentally, my edit summaries now strike me as worded unfortunately.
5. Please specify the way in which I treated Dmitri1999 as less than, or other than, human.
6. Yes, you are correct, I failed to do the slightest bit of working with Dmitri1999. Why? Because I could say nothing that had not already been said straightforwardly on his user talk page and in edit summaries. I'd observed his recent pattern of edits (epitomized here, in dispute with User:Velella and User:TheMindsEye). He'd already been warned about the user page. Incidentally, I now think that it was wrong of me to delete it just fifteen hours after the warning was posted (and I elaborate on this below). Any administrator is free to restore it (but see below).
7. See the first item in this list.

So, I plead guilty to deleting his user page too quickly, and to wording two or more edit summaries poorly.

If I deleted his user page too quickly (as I now think I did), why was this? Probably because, as my log file will confirm, a large percentage of my recent administrative work has been dealing with what's thrown up in Usernames for administrator attention/Bot. There are false positives, genital/rectal-related names (presumably from children and drunks), but also a depressing number of corporate usernames whose activities quickly turn out to combine the spamming of articles and the posting of an advert on the user page. Such promotion-only accounts are nuked on sight, together with their self-promoting user pages. So I probably mis-applied to Dmitri1999's user page practices from "Usernames for administrator attention". Which I say not to justify the mis-application, merely to explain it.

I can restore the user page if asked. Incidentally, I checked just now to see if it had been restored in any way. It has. It now reads: Total bullshit! Blanking the page would be more considerate and less contentious, assholes! (This eruption is not from Dmitri1999 but from User:Canoe1967.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:46, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

The page was somewhat promotional, but not so bad that speedy deletion was necessary. I think that it would have been best to have asked Dmitri to have toned it down a bit, but the changes wouldn't have need to be major. Jumping in and deleting it before he could respond seems a bit over the top. I've seen academics with user pages which, quite appropriately, list their fields of expertise, major publications and contact details, and an approach like that would have been in order. User:JJ Harrison's user page also provides a possible model; he describes his expertise and showcases his best work, and notes in passing that people who'd like to license his excellent photos can contact him via email. Nick-D (talk) 06:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

That said, Dmitri has been seriously out of line calling people who remove his photos 'vandals' (eg, [113], [114]) and taking a high-handed approach to the removal of their work in general (see the edit summary here). Nick-D (talk) 06:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• If I might make an observation, I think people are perhaps being a tad too hard on each other on both sides here - there is good faith all round, and we need to keep that in mind. Has Dmitri1999 been trying to promote himself professionally using Wikipedia? Undoubtedly - adding his wedding photos (excellent though they are) to articles about places just because they happen to have been taken in that place is about as blatant as it gets. Has he been using his photos decoratively rather than to illustrate an important encyclopedic point? Yes. Was his user page unduly promotional? No idea - I can't see it. But on the other side, did anyone really take the trouble the properly explain the use of images in Wikipedia articles? Nope. Was the deletion of his user page a little heavy-handed? Yep (and credit to Hoary for the comment above - I think it would be worth restoring at least temporarily, so that we can at least all see it). Is he worth engaging with in order to help improve the encyclopedia? Undoubtedly. Dmitri is a very talented photographer who produces some superb work, and rather than adopting the "He has to toe *our* line if he wants to use his photos here" approach, I think we should be approaching it more from the angle "We have a very talented contributor here, so what can *we* do to get the best from what he is offering us". -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

  Oh, and Canoe1967's version of Dmitri1999's user page should be promptly deleted -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

  I invited Canoe1967 here, but he doesn't seem to like the idea. -- Hoary (talk) 12:38, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Responses to remarks above (but not Nick-D's or Boing!'s, which I'll get to a bit later):

I don't think I did anything that can reasonably be described as kicking somebody in the nuts.

I'm glad to see that Beyond My Ken sees no harassment. However, I don't fully agree with him elsewhere. I know a fair number of professional photographers, and none has an easy time supporting him/herself, let alone feeding kids and putting them through college. (Of course the observation that photography is going through hard times is unoriginal.) It's unrealistic to expect that pro photographers, other perhaps than a few in extraordinary circumstances, will put time and effort into disinterested contributions to Wikipedia or Commons. Meanwhile, although there are pros whose work I loathe and amateurs whose photobooks I buy, on average pro photographers are better at their jobs than are mere amateurs. I think that pro photographers can constructively make contributions to Commons/Wikipedia while they actually have their own interests firmly in mind. However, this requires calmness and sensitivity. Looking at Dmitri1999's edit summaries since his return to WP in late January, I don't see this at all. He adds his photos for their professionalism, he decries their removal as vandalism.

Floquenbeam: The user page seems a bit promotional. It's also been there for more than 2 years, so there was no crisis that needed to be solved by its immediate deletion. True, there was no crisis. However, his edit history shows a great number of edits since 23 January (after an eleven-month break). All those that I looked at seemed to increase the salience of the photographer, and some were quite extraordinary -- notably this one, in which Dmitri1999 adds a (good) photo of his own to the top of "Photojournalism", thus placing it together with (but above) a small number of the most renowned photographs in history (an edit that brought no favorable comments that I have noticed, and unfavorable reactions from User:Antique Rose and User:Dougweller). -- Hoary (talk) 06:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Update: In accordance with the majority sentiment above, and the specific request from Boing!, I have restored all earlier versions of User:Dmitri1999. The result was of course that these became earlier versions of a page written by Canoe1967. I then reverted Canoe1967's edit, but I did not delete it. (I have no objection to its deletion or its existence.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Within an amicable and constructive message above, Boing! writes: But on the other side, did anyone really take the trouble [to] properly explain the use of images in Wikipedia articles? Nope.

The use of images, possibly not. Self-promotion, certainly yes. A bit more digging in contribution histories suggests to me that Dmitri1999 started as a self-promoter. Only admins will be able to see the history of the deleted article "Toronto Wedding Photography" but I think that an uninvolved admin who looks will confirm that this started as a blatant self-advertisement on his talk page, underwent various changes, and when moved to "Toronto Wedding Photography" was still a feebly-disguised self-advertisement, starting in the third person (Dmitri Markine is...) but continuing with Due to very high demand,starting in 2008,destination wedding photography services will be introduced for a maximum of 4 events/year. Please call or email to schedule an appointment. As early as 22 September 2007, Dmitri1999's user talk page was given a COI template, politely dissuading him from editing where there could be a COI, and ending For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have conflict of interest, please see Wikipedia:Business' FAQ. For more details about what constitutes a conflict of interest, please see Wikipedia:Conflict of Interest (admins, see this deleted version of what was then his user talk page but would later become the deleted article "Toronto Wedding Photography"). Dmitri1999's user page now is very similar to his user talk page as of 31 March 2010; two months later, this got a db-spam template from the alarmingly named User:Mean as custard. This "speedy" template remained for a leisurely six months, whereupon the entire content was blanked by User:Protonk (who rather inexplicably cited WP:REFUND). [No: on the contrary, quite explicably. See the detailed history below for an explanation. -- Hoary (talk) 03:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)]

Dmitri1999 seems to have lost patience with WP in February 2012: see this (about licensing, not advertising). He returned in late January 2013. Only four days later, he was warned by User:Janweh64 about excessive insertion of his own photographs. Dmitri1999's response starts I am not self promoting myself so I have no reason to stop. I've already responded to a similar allegation in commons. If you don't like it, please report it. Surely an acknowledgment of a charge of self-promotion.

All in all I think a self-promotional motif in Dmitri1999's editing patterns has been clear for over five years, and that he has already received sufficient warning about this. And while I do not claim to have looked at all his talk-page edits, within those I have looked at I have not seen either honest mystification or requests for clarification. -- Hoary (talk) 08:40, 2 February 2013 (UTC) Green (for those with CSS) interpolation added 03:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree that he has been using Wikipedia for promotion. I removed two images recently he added to language articles - [115] and [116] as inappropriate - see French language for an article using images appropriately. He also added an image to Photojournalism [117] which I believe was both inappropriate and promotional. See the discussion at Talk:Photojournalism. Dougweller (talk) 11:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Good faith is a two way trade. Dmitri1999 started his editing career by posting several promotional links into articles , examples here and here. On 28th March 2008 he renamed his talk page to Toronto Wedding Photography and then blanked it and marked it for speedy deletion under G11 which happened on 29th March here. It is reasonable to assume that it contained several warnings about promotional conduct which he took great care to make disappear. These actions are the not the actions of a Wikipedia novice. It is clear that the impropriety of commercial promotion was evident to him from the very first days of his editing career. To continue to pursuing promotion of his own business from then till now seems to be taking a blatant disregard to the mores and etiquette of Wikipedia. He is cocking a snoot at the rest of Wikipedia.

I have a concern about licensing which is probably better addressed at commons where his requirements that his commercial web-site addressed must be used in any reproduction of his images.

I also have an issue that many of photographs are not that good or not that relevant. They are probably excellent for commercial weddings but highly manipulated and cropped shots are often un-encyclopaedic as they have lost much of the context that made them accurate, reliable and informative. One replacement made by Dmitri was replacing an existing shot of a Mursi woman with one of his own. Whilst his shot is very dramatic, it is also highly digitally manipulated and has not got the wealth of ethnographic details in the original including the background vegetation, the body jewellery and the original natural colours. On another occasion he replaces a shot with one of his claiming the original has copyright issues here; it doesn't.

My conclusion from all of this and much more including his attacking and belligerent edit summaries is that on Wikipedia his behaviour is disingenuous. There are on Wikipedia very many excellent professional photographers giving their skills for free, unannounced and without fanfares. I am sorry, but in my book, he has reneged on any good-faith that should be extended to him. His material is often worse than other contributors and he hacks off other users with abusive and frankly bullying edit summaries. His behaviour is much more likely to loose other editors and I, for one, shan't put out my hand to say please return. My support if for Hoary  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   21:22, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

(Further comment inserted here to keep my arguments in one place). The argument that Dmitri is a professional photographer and therefore to be valued for that does not hold water. I know of several very eminent contributors in their respective fields, eminent scientists, business leaders, doctors (physicians) etc. who neither advertise their eminence nor react in an aggressive manner when challenged. I cannot of course verify this without outing named Wikipedians but I am sure than most long experienced Wikipedians will acknowledge that this is true. It is also the case that Dmitri has long experience here and will have encountered the Bold, Revert, Discuss mantra. This has never happened. For Dmitri, it is Bold, Harangue, Restore boastfully. If he were a teenager editing on a school, computer would we have cut him anywhere this amount of slack? I don't believe so.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   10:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I've done some more rooting around in the history of Dmitri1999's description of himself:

• 2010.03.31: Dmitri1999 has his user talk page describe himself, very similarly to the way his user page will later describe himself (before I deleted the latter, and as it describes him now)
• 2010.05.05: Mean as Custard applies db-spam to the user talk page
• 2010.05.05: HJMitchell deletes the user talk page (edit summary: Deleted because "CSD G11- advertising or promotion". using TW) (as shown in the log page)
• 2010.12.04 (04:20): Dmitri1999 voices his displeasure on HJMitchell's talk page. (HJMitchell seems not to have been impressed. The message remains unanswered.)
• 2010.12.04 (04:28): Dmitri1999 appeals at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
• 2010.12.04 (05:56): Protonk restores the user talk page (edit summary: 36 revisions restored: Undeleting since it is a talk page, but will blank) (as shown in the log page)
• 2010.12.04 (05:56): Protonk blanks the user talk page (edit summary: blanking, explanation at WP:REFUND)
• 2010.12.04 (05:59): Protonk replies at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion: I've restored the page and blanked it. Notwithstanding the fact that it is your talk page, you may not use any wikipedia page as a personal advertisement. Wikipedia is not the place to host your cv. I can see in the history that you have added that material several times. [...] (There were no later additions to this RfU thread: see archive 25.)
• 2010.12.07: Dmitri1999 adds this material to his user page.
• 2011.01.01: Mean as custard blanks the user page (edit summary: Remove self-promotion)
• 2011.02.21 (03:15): RN1970 reverts the blanking (edit summary: It's a user page, not an article)
• 2011.02.21 (03:19): RN1970 self-reverts (edit summary: rv. myself, after re-reading WP:USERPAGE)
• 2011.03.27: Dmitri1999 readds the material to his user page

As I look at this sorry history, I have trouble justifying the presence of this material in the user page. -- Hoary (talk) 00:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC), slightly edited 03:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The user page should be deleted as blatant advertising, a clear violation of WP:User pages. (But, then, I have virtually zero tolerance for people using Wikipedia for promotional purposes.) I'd nominate it for AfD myself if it wasn't such a pain (since I don't use Twinkle). Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't use Twinkle either. The process is indeed a bit tiresome, but most of my time is consumed in thinking about the delete rationale, articulating this, and debugging and polishing the result, tasks in which Twinkle would surely be of no help. -- Hoary (talk) 23:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

It's following the steps in setting up a discussion which is hard for me - the writing goes easily enough after that. The difficulty isone reason I generally don't nominate articles for AfD (the other is my generally inclusionist leanings). Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Commons discussion

Apologies if this has already been linked, but there is a concurrent discussion happening on Commons' Administrators' Noticeboard. I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, but it appears that the userpage has been restored over there and there is now a proposal to "formally censure all people involved with harassing Dimitri off Commons". I have no opinion on this issue, just pointing it out. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:54, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that the user page there was ever deleted, but I'm not sure how to check. -- Hoary (talk) 01:04, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Nope, it has never been deleted on Commons. Graham87 07:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Deleting Dmitri's images from articles, and more

• I was just browsing wedding articles for an article I am writing for my

photography program at college and after some browsing I found this thread, as I recognized a photograph in the article. I am very surprised he is donating his images. There's a good reason why there are almost no professional photographers contributing...

Dmitri is actually a very well known in Canada among photographers. Even our teacher was mentioning him as one of the best Canadian photographers. I've never met him,but heard a lot of good things about his work over the years from others. His pictures speak for themselves! I can only guess that there's some kind of professional rivalry or personal vendetta that is coming from people who is against him. He is clearly a good photographer and we should be very happy that a photographer of such caliber took the time out of his busy schedule to donate a few pictures.

I don't believe how you've treated(and keep at it) is professional. It is not what Wikipedia should be about.

I found thatUser talk:Velella, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary have been deleting Dmitri's images from articles even after this discussion had started. Since those users did not care about others opinions, they should be banned or punished. What I understood, Dmitri took it personal when his pictures were being deleted from articles, with accusations of him being a spammer -all of us would be angry! Just look at his latest uploads, they are not linked to any articles,because of the actions of select few people here who took it upon themselves to be the final judge.User talk:Velella in his angry harsh statements above,critiquing the images is clearly someone who is either a)very angry at User talk:Dmitri1999 b)Does not know anything about photography c)color blind As a person who've been involved in photography field for many years, his angry statements are not only wrong,but quite laughable.

I think there are a few things that have to be done to resolve this:

• Apology to the photographer.

• Restoring all the images in articles where User talk:Velella, Alex2006, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary deleted his images

• Perhaps some disciplinary actions against those 4 individuals(I think it's

only 4,but maybe more were involved.)

• Maybe creating some kind of a safeguard to avoid the same issues at a later day

• We may also consider deleting some of defamation statements that were said

by a few of the mentioned individuals. Since you can't proof that it was self-promotion and spam(I can't see any), what you said can be interpreted as libel. In theory, Wikipedia can be taken to court,since it was said against his business.

Then and only then it's fair to assume he may come back. I don't personally see him coming back anytime before at least most of these measures are taken

What's the point of all this discussion if in a week or a month another "hot shot" will come in and start deleting his images from articles. Nobody likes their time and hard work wasted. 74.198.9.33 (talk) 03:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)JWong74.198.9.33 (talk) 03:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It is nice to hear from someone who doesn't have any stake in this whatsoever. Thank you for taking the time to express your unbiased opinion as an unbiased observer. It was lucky that you happened to stumble across this discussion when you did. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting to note that 74.198.9.33 originates from Toronto, which just (coincidentally!) happens to be where Dmitri1999 is from. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, that's some interesting class the IP editor is taking. Talking about notable Canadian photographers, and it's not Yousuf Karsh or Edward Burtynsky they're discussing, it's an obscure wedding photographer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, one class could be about wedding photography. And let's not make gratuitous use of words such as "obscure". -- Hoary (talk) 09:51, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The use of "obscure" wasn't gratuitous at all, it's based on some Google searching. I also submit that any well-known notable wedding photographer wouldn't have the need to use Wikipedia to promote his or her business. Word-of-mouth would have taken care of that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying that "obscure" isn't accurate/justified. Or indeed that it is. (Of course, I have my own opinion on this.) I merely say that such a description isn't helpful here, now. -- Hoary (talk) 01:44, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Come on, there's no reason to tip-toe around this and pretend we're all the best of friends, and this is just a misunderstanding between respected colleagues The guy is trying to use us for his own aggrandizement in ways that we don't allow, and then slips in here with a cheap wig and a glued-on mustache pretending to be someone else, so he can wag his finger at how badly we've all behaved. There is absolutely no point in not calling a spade a spade and giving this guy the old heave-ho out the back door. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Emoticon. Now try these discussions, which I venture to say have a certain unintended comic appeal in places. -- Hoary (talk) 04:17, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

May I start by seconding DC's welcome to you. (Note to others: the discussion that the IP stumbled across was the one at Commons. Seeing that the IP's comment there was at least in part about Wikipedia, I invited him here.) You say:

User talk:Velella, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary have been deleting Dmitri's images from articles even after this discussion had started. Since those users did not care about others opinions, they should be banned or punished.

And your list of demands includes:

Restoring all the images in articles where User talk:Velella, Alex2006, User talk:Alvesgaspar and User talk:Hoary deleted his images

Before I am banned from Wikipedia and thus unable to make any of these changes (or indeed even apologize for earlier misdeletions), please specify the three most egregious examples of image deletion, whether by me or anybody else. Thank you. -- Hoary (talk) 04:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. Just because Dmitri1999 is a good photographer, doesn't mean any of these are actually useful for an educational project. Everything's staged, full of photographic filters, and of incredibly low resolutions. However, the Commons are likely going to deify him because the community at the Commons praises providers of free content, regardless of the content's possible use amongst the Wikimedia projects or other educational settings. As I can see, this is already happening.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think these factors come into it at all. It's almost impossible to know what some Wikimedia project might need to use in the future, so it's rare that I think an image is out of scope for the Commons -- although it has happened. The important thing (at least to me) is not the technical quality of the images, or their content, but the attempt to use Commons and en.Wiki for promotional purposes. That's an extremely dangerous thing to allow to happen, since it can knock NPOV right off its keester, and there goes any amount of good reputation we've managed to build up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:47, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Let's be polite about both the JPEGs and the photographer. But yes, this new discussion, to which you point, about the alleged hounding of Dmitri1999 is fascinating. Surely the tastiest comment is this one, in which an editor recommends righting the injustice by cannibalism. (Of myself, if I understand correctly. Note to anybody salivating: I'm old and lean.) A great pity that this straight-talking editor, briefly mentioned some way above, has declined to join our little discussion here. -- Hoary (talk) 06:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• Not so Ryulong. Commons is not, in any way, trying to deify Dmitri's contributions. Look better! -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 10:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

  It certainly looks that way.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Dmitri1999 may have been treated rather extremely, but... is it just me or did he make a small number of worthwhile edits back in 2007-8, then replace his talk page with a link to his commercial website, hold some brief talk page conversations for a few years, then suddenly reappear on 23 January and start posting a lot of photos on articles? There's nothing wrong with increasing the number of photos on articles, but most of them appear to be his, and this seems to imply he is here to advertise his own commercial venture. No one appears to have contacted him on his user talk page and politely requested that he actually work to improve the encyclopedia a bit before adding any more of his own photos to articles. The Wedding photography article doesn't need any more photographs: it is a mess, with a 5-paragraph-long intro, possible OR issues, and an average of 1-inline-citation-per-400-words. How about requesting that he actually write something to demonstrate his good faith (he is obviously a SPA, but that may or may not be a problem), and then moving on? elvenscout742 (talk) 07:43, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

For instance, he could add references for "WPJA awards an annual Photographer of the Year Award to recognize the best in wedding photojournalism" before he adds his own photo and claims he won it

Also, I know he's allowed upload photos and ask that due attribution be given off-wiki, but is he allowed upload photos and then insist that we are not allowed to use them on-wiki? Hypothetically, his photos could have been used in 100 articles by now, and asking that they be taken down just because he is the one who took them seems to have that effect.

elvenscout742 (talk) 07:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he was away for eleven months before reappearing on 23 January, adding his photos. I think that different people have different aptitudes and preferences, and I don't think it's a good idea to expect people to write before they add photos. However, it would of course be good if they at least corrected things here and there, thereby suggesting that they had read the articles and cared about what they said. I also wonder about the wisdom of asking somebody whose edits are in some way problematic to write about the awards that he's won. ¶ Yes, the Wedding photography article is indeed dreadful, and it has long been something of a battleground between would-be (self-) promoters, plural, and defenders of the (crappy) status quo. I suppose one problem is that there's not so much in the way of reliable sources that anybody other than a would-be or current wedding photographer would actually want to read. (There are plenty of books, of course, but who'd want to pay for them?) Perhaps the article most needs one or more contentedly retired wedding photographers, who have a sense of perspective and also have one or two books lying around. As for the use of images, one uploads them to Commons with this or that appropriate license, and that license then stays. (I so I thought.) Wikipedia can then use those images. -- Hoary (talk) 09:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Dmitri has removed most of user page

With the edit summary "I can see there's a lot of anger so I've decided to delete any "promotional" material so that it would not even be here. I am sorry(I really do) it had caused so much anger in some people towards each other. Life is too short,lets just move on". He's just left "I am a photographer from Canada. I love photography and have dedicated my whole life to it: teaching,taking pictures and traveling the world" with a link to his web page - that should settle this issue. Dougweller (talk) 09:57, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. That's a graceful rewrite; good for Dmitri. This edit inspires me to say that I'd be happy if the discussion above were hatted. -- Hoary (talk) 12:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:68.40.217.90

• 68.40.217.90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user continues to vandalize wikipedia by adding incorrect information despite having been blocked previously. A longer term or permanent block should be warranted. Spanneraol (talk) 03:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Please provide diffs to support your claim, ensuring that the edits are clear cases of vandalsim and not simply unsourced good faith additions. Thanks. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:35, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The edits that caused the previous two blocks were ridiculous without even looking into it. The more recent edits actually appear plausible, if unsourced. Do you know for certain that what he's adding is incorrect? Someguy1221 (talk) 09:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes he is adding information to various baseball player pages stating that they have signed with teams that they have not signed with.. and he has done it several times. Spanneraol (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Blocked for two weeks, since it's technically a BLP-policy violation. Nyttend (talk) 19:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I am Redux

Dear all,

Forgive me for posting these lines in the Administrators' Noticeboard, but I figured there would be no other place suitable for this that would provide the visibility I thought would be desirable. I chose the "general" area because this (thank goodness) does not require any specific Admin action.

Anyone who has not been on this project for a long, long time will probably never have seen me around. I have been absent for a long, long time. I left without previous notice or goodbyes, which is something I have always regretted. For whatever it's worth, I am sorry for that.

At one time, I held the flags of Admin (elected in 2005, if memory serves me well) and Bureaucrat on the English-language Wikipedia and Steward of the Wikimedia Foundation, in addition to having the Oversight and Checkuser permissions on the English-language Wikipedia. Since my final departure, in July of 2009, all of those flags have been removed. I support those removals completely and I have no intention of seeking to regain any of those flags.

I had intended to return to the project on several occasions exactly to relinquish the tools, since I felt I had lost the right to have them on account of having left the project and, most importantly, because I could no longer consider myself as being up-to-date with policies and going-ons, and thus could not in good conscience presume to retain the community's permission to use the tools. I noticed, however, that the permissions had been removed due to my inactivity, and since it was more than fair that they would be removed, I decided to move on.

But in all this time I never abandoned Wikipedia, at least not completely. I return to the website daily for its most precious asset: knowledge; and on occasion I read threads on the Noticeboards to try to keep a minimal understanding of the administration of the website.

I return now to say that I would like to contribute once more. Just in a different capacity. I may not have the Administrator tools anymore, but I can perhaps still help with input if it is required. The current Bcrats may also ask any help I can possibly provide... I'm not exactly Cecropia, but maybe my years of experience can still count for something positive.

Thank you all, the current Admins, Bcrats and users for keeping this project alive and well for all these years. Without your selfless dedication, Wikipedia would not be what it is now. It is an honor to rejoin you all in this project I have loved for almost 9 years now. Redux (talk) 20:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back. Mlpearc (powwow) 20:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, welcome back. I wish more of the old-school admins from the "bad old days" had such a grounded perspective. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Even if you return without any extra bits, oldtimers in general (since I don't actually know you) tend to have more clue than the current average, and any net increase in average clue is welcome. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back! I look forward to seeing you around! --j⚛e decker^talk 01:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Your input would definitely be welcome. We judge cases by individual merit, not the experience of the users; and in many issues, leaving Wikipedia for any length of time would still allow you to give us considerations which perhaps we wouldn't have thought of. And some times, when trying to discuss a potential change in policy, understanding its history may help us make the right decision. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Redux redux - welcome back! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Welcome back, happy editing! GiantSnowman 09:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Welcome back. It is always great to have access to someone who knows the history, and can shed light on why certain things are done this way.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Bem-vindo! When you left I was already around for some time but I don't recall any interaction. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 15:04, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Request for admin assistance

I'd be grateful if an admin could take a look at my request at Wikipedia talk:In the news#Richard III. Prioryman (talk) 00:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done by David Levy. Bencherlite^Talk 00:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration motion under consideration regarding withdrawn case requests

The Arbitration Committee is currently considering a motion on withdrawn arbitration case requests. The community may comment on the proposed motion in the community comments section.

For the Arbitration Committee, Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 21:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

RfA RfC round two

Hi all, the second of three rounds of the RfA request for comment has started. Please comment with your proposed solution there! Thanks, Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 04:21, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Here's one article that I found intriguing.

I was browsing the net rather lazily when I found this piece of article here in a personal blog that I think people should check once. It deals with Wikipedia's mismanagement of the RFP/C page. People, I ask you to give suggestions and opinions on what could be done. Thanking you, Wiki4Blog 16:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

That is interesting. I wouldn't suggest "any admin", though, I'd suggest guiding them to a category (like we do for RevDel) of administrators with an interest in that particualr kind of request, presumably admins that would somewhat self-select for availability and newcomer-friendliness. --j⚛e decker^talk 19:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't find it particularly interesting except that I am pretty sure this user just blew their attempt at a WP:CLEANSTART because they are mad that their new account didn't get confirmed. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah. --j⚛e decker^talk 19:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Backlog at WP:RM

Hello.

There is a huge backlog at WP:RM. Would an admin – or a rather dozen – please give it some attention.

Alternatively, is it ok if the proposing editor himself/herself closes the RM by removing the request and performing the move(s) himself/herself? Provided, of course, that there is some kind of consensus to move.

Thanks

HandsomeFella (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

New users prefixed "NJIT HUM"

I've noticed several edits by different users prefixed "NJIT HUM", such as this one by User:‎NJIT HUMKMA, this one by User:‎NJIT HUMRodjFlores and another one by User:NJIT HUMhyd2 that have been made over the past day to a number of New Jersey-related articles. At first I thought that this might be a series of sockpuppets, but it seems that the most likely explanation is that these are people (perhaps students) affiliated with the New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) in Newark, New Jersey who are taking a humanities course and have an assignment to edit Wikipedia, starting with articles about schools and places that they might be familiar with. There seems to be no problem whatsoever with any of the edits I have seen -- one of the edits was reverted, but the change had been correct -- and this may well be a useful way to introduce editors to the encyclopedia. Is there any way to track down who is behind these new editors, though I could just see if email access id set up for these folks? Any thoughts on using this as a model, where college students are asked to edit articles for their high school or hometown as a way to broaden participation by a group of people likely to be responsible and thorough in their editing? Alansohn (talk) 20:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• Should probably let these guys know about this. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:51, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I went ahead and left a notice linking to this discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  • There's also WP:Education noticeboard for these things. I'd suggest leaving it be for now, and just a note on every talkpage that says something like "Please have your professor come to our IRC channel (wikipedia-en-help) for some help with his course before you continue editing". If any of them look like they're being disruptive, block until their professor gets it sorted out. Just my POV. gwickwire^talk_edits 20:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I am personally opposed to ever doing anything that suggests anyone is required to use IRC instead of on-wiki communication or email. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:00, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Beeblebrox. gwickwire is right that WP:ENB is the best place to report this kind of thing now. We also have {{welcome student}} and {{welcome teacher}} that you can use to welcome students and/or teachers for classes that don't seem to be organized on-wiki.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) If there's no problem with the editing, there's no problem with the accounts. The professor should be directed to any one of the various Education outreach programs like Wikipedia:School and university projects but there isn't any reason we'd want to discourage such usage. These students may need extra help and guidance, and having the professor coordinate with Wikimedia's own outreach teams is very useful, but ultimately these accounts aren't breaking any rules, and we needn't get all in a tizzy over the account naming issue. --Jayron32 21:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2)I only meant IRC due to the fact that this professor is most likely on a deadline for his syllabus, and therefore will more than likely not want to wait for a response from the EN people. There's a few of us in wikipedia-en-help that can help him understand why going through the ENB would be better, and would help him tremendously. We could also help him set up his pages. I feel it's highly unlikely that unless he's talking with a live person (IRC most likely) he will ask his students to stop while he gets a course page set up. gwickwire^talk_edits 21:11, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for all of the feedback and suggestions. If I thought that something untoward was going on, I'd have posted this to ANI. I came here because I agree that this appears to be a positive for Wikipedia and just wondered how best to approach this and make the most of what can be a very good situation. Alansohn (talk) 22:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

MiszBehavior

Hi everyone. Could some MiszaBot II guru take a look at history for AN/I archive #784, which is the current one as I write this? In these two consecutive archiving edits, MiszaBot appears to have duplicated itself, i.e. added the same three AN/I threads to the archive, so that they are currently represented there twice. Many thanks, --OhioStandard (talk) 01:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)