Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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Abuse of admin powers by Karmafist

User:Karmafist recently blocked me, on a false allegation of vandalism. He continues to defend his actions, on this page (above) and various talk pages, adding further false allegations and ad hominem attacks. He reverted Coleshill, Warwickshire, a page on which we disagreed, and which he had previously protected, to an old edit which included redundant links, having previously claimed that his suggested text was an agreed consensus, despite no such consesnus existing and despite me having sugegested a more accurate alternative; and he did so with personal abuse in his edit suammry. He further falsely accused me of breaching 3RR, but took no action against the efitor who actually did so. He has also falseley accused me of sending him threatening e-mail. Andy Mabbett 11:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

A simple analysis of the article's Talk Page and its discussion leads me to believe otherwise, Andy. Karmafist treated you and the other involved part friendly and with respect, which unfortunately you didn't. You agreed yourself to the solution that was achieved through his mediation. You were fairly warned of breaking said consensus after engaging in an edit war and breaking 3RR. Most likely, I would have done the same as he did, given the situation.

In my humble opinion, you've chosen the wrong approach. I'm positive that you believe your contributions to be correct, so there are other ways in which this matter can be solved. Gather a couple of sources to endorse your view, quote them and reference them at the article. That will strengthen you opinion. Talk with the parts involved; discuss and debate are positive. If you need help, I even offer myself to mediate between you and G-Man, and to achieve a more solid consensus. The whole issue isn't that serious to get so upset, dear. Karma has acted correctly as an admin, and I beg you, don't even think he has a personal dislike of you. It's all in the manner we propose our contributions that an agreement can be reached, and I know that sometimes we can all feel frustrated and get angry; we're only human. Calm down, relax, take a deep breath and let's build together. That's what we're all here for. Hugs, Shauri smile! 13:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

leads me to believe otherwise Then please cite the edit summary where I committed the vandalism of which he accsues me.

Karmafist treated you and the other involved part friendly and with respect, which unfortunately you didn't. Untrue.

You agreed yourself to the solution that was achieved through his mediation. I most certainly did not.

You were fairly warned of breaking said consensus There was no consesnus.

after engaging in an edit war and breaking 3RR. I did not breach 3RR. G-Man did, but no action has been taken.

Most likely, I would have done the same as he did, given the situation Then you, too, would have been abusing yoru powers.

The whole issue isn't that serious to get so upset Wait to see how you feel, if ever you're falsely accused of vandalism on WP.

dear. !!!

Andy Mabbett 08:45, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Karmafist has now reverted Coleshill, Warwickshire to his preferred version, then protedcted it - a further abuse of his admin powers. Andy Mabbett 08:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Karmafist is now threatening to block me indefinately. Andy Mabbett 22:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

See also this breach of civility and assume-good-faith policies. Andy Mabbett 22:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

• sigh*... look. Karmafist hasn't down a single thing that is against policy. You, however, continue to assert that you are a victim, despite your abusive edit summaries. You still have yet to answer this, and until you do, it will make you look like a troll instead of a confused and unhappy editor. We can not help you until you help yourself. Linuxbeak | Talk 01:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*sigh*... look. Karmafist hasn't down (sic) a single thing that is against policy. Then please cite the edit summary where I committed the vandalism of which he accuses me. Please cite my supposed "abusive edit summaries." Andy Mabbett 07:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Karmafist has also recently made a number of personal atatcks, also in breach of the policies he claims to enforce. Andy Mabbett 12:24, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It almost seems to me that you have it in for Karmafist, rather than the other way round. I'm afraid I dont see any personal attacks at the other end of those links you provided. As far as I can see, Karmafist has acted within policy. I attempted to mediate between you two and even then you were unco-operative. Also, please stop assuming everyone here is out to get you. Neither Shauri, nor Linuxbeak, Karmafist, or myself is trying to make you angry. Another thing, continuessly italasizing other people's comments and typos is considered impolite, and is exactly what one of your complaints of Karmafist were. Banes 13:56, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

It almost seems to me that you have it in for Karmafist I'm sorry to see that you're so unable to grasp the facts of the matter.

rather than the other way round Intersting you dshould say that, as I've never claimed that he "has it in for me".

I'm afraid I dont see any personal attacks at the other end of those links you provided. As far as I can see, Karmafist has acted within policy. I'm sorry to see that you're so unable to grasp the facts of the matter.

I attempted to mediate between you two and even then you were unco-operative. Your evidence for this remarkably ludicrous assertion would be..?

Also, please stop assuming everyone here is out to get you. Please stop misrepresenting me.

Another thing, continuessly italasizing other people's comments and typos is considered impolite,. Indeed. Where have I done it?

Meanwhile, perhaps you could cite the vandalism for which he claims to have blocked me; and the policy which allowed him to do so?

Andy Mabbett 14:09, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Karmafist called your editing "vandalism" once, here. This was wrong, but incidentally: the only reason the word "vandalism" was included was that it is an automatic part of the standard {{test5}} block template. Karmafist also continued calling you "Pigs" despite your wish to be called Andy Mabbett. You are reacting with aggression that is way out of proportion to such a tiny thing. In every other action Karmafist has been exemplary. silsor 14:53, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Threat and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pigsonthewing. Andy Mabbett 20:22, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

He's at it again! (breach of Wikipedia:Username#Changing inappropriate usernames and Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Usernames) Andy Mabbett 23:23, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I've had it. Pigsonthewing, I'm going to be frank. You need to answer the RFC or else no one will even heed you any attention. If you don't answer it, don't come crying to the Administrators' noticboard if and when an RFAr is opened against you. Linuxbeak | Talk 15:11, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfair ban

User:RhiannonH was banned for adding information to the Bogdanov Affair when she has no part in the external controversy in any way. She is here to edit Wikipedia, not the Bogdanov Affair. All she did was add some stuff about radio stations in the UK and their reaction to it. I find this 48 hour block of her unfair and politely ask that you unblock her. Colbrook 13:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

User:RhiannonH has 100% (1 of 1) edits on Bogdanov Affair, and so the ban per temporary injunction takes effect. --Pjacobi 13:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The block was in line. Zach (Sound Off) 19:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Why was the block in line? This is what the user in question added to the article:

Controversy

+ Radio presenter Sophie Bruce on Cambridgeshire radio station Q103 accused the Bogdanovs of being hoaxers and even called them quacks on air. This was in September 2005.

+ Dan Mills on Oxfordshire radio station Fox FM said the situation was one big joke and made Big Bang jokes on air about it on his show 1-4pm in October 2005.

Why does that deserve a ban? I would like to know that. --Anittas 20:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

DotSix and AOL

Seeing as how DotSix (banned from editing outside his arbitration case) is now editing atheism, theism, and other of his favorite articles quite frequently, from AOL IPs, why doesn't somebody get in touch with AOL's abuse department? ~~ N (t/c) 17:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Worth a try, but I'm not sure if he's violated any of AOL's TOS. Sure, he's currently banned from Wikipedia but will AOL do anything about that? Currently I am blocking his IPs and protecting articles as necessary. Hopefully this will encourage him to give up. Rhobite 17:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Úbeda

The discussion over the title of the Úbeda article is deadlocked, but one or more users are trying to change the article themselves. They are probably just disgruntled at the way the discussion has been handled. Anyway, I've reverted and blocked Craticidi for violating the 3RR (or 7RR in this case!). Now a new user (Ozrag) is doing exactly the same -- I suspect pupetry. I might be in violation of the 3RR myself if I revert again, as I'm not sure whether this counts as simple vandalism -- it's actually POV, but it's working against the establishment of consensus. Either, help me out with maintaining the status quo here, or tell me that I wouldn't be violating 3RR. --Gareth Hughes 17:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I've blocked Craticidi and Ozrag for 3RR violations. Today, I've blocked Orgaz and Ragoz for being very likely sock puppets of Ozrag (and variations on my name). The blocks are all 24h, and I would like to hear some opinion on this. --Gareth Hughes 17:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't spotted the anagrams (slow) but, with that, you were correct to block, IMHO. It's not really deadlocked, not with a 14 to 6 vote, but as one of the participants in the debate I'm not going to move it -- I'd rather leave the job to an outsider. This revert warring on the intro is, I think, independent of where the article ends up: Craticidi/Ozrag/Orgaz's arguments (same person as Kolokol?) seem to be with how to word the article's introduction, not its location (he/she/they haven't bothered voting). And until the whole diacrit question is settled, we can look forward to two, three, many such Việt Nams. Years of fun. –Hajor 18:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I, too, would like this article to be renamed with the diacritic. However, I am fed up with this user's tactic. I've just blocked Groaz. Could someone fill me in on the technical aspects of blocking, and how this user might be evading the block. --Gareth Hughes 18:29, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I've just done another one (Jahro): this is getting silly. Is there any chance that this vandal is 203.29.88.193, who left a particularly horrible personal attack on my user page? --Gareth Hughes 19:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

While I think diacritics in English article titles are almost always unhelpful, I'm indifferent to this place name having one in its WP title if consensus swings that way. For me the problem is wholly with the tactics of the anagram socks, which should be resolved before the article is re-named (given the apparent consensus to do so). Wyss 19:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Our puppeteer has now decided to use your name Wyss. It seems the most effective way to stop this is to protect the page until the decision has been made. Very reluctantly, I've protected it. --Gareth Hughes 19:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The atrocious tactics of this vandal notwithstanding, it is long past time to rename the article back to Úbeda. Note, this was in fact the original title until March 2005, when a five-day WP:RM vote was held with 6-3 in favor of renaming to Ubeda. The current vote has now lasted more than ten days and is currently 12-7 in favor of renaming back to the original title (and note, one of the original voters in the March WP:RM has changed his vote). The basis for moving the page back to its original title is thus at least as solid as the basis for moving it to the current title seven months ago, and there is little point letting the situtation fester. Could some admin kindly close the WP:RM and move the page without too much further delay.

It should be pointed out as well that not long after the original WP:RM vote a survey was held at long-running survey on diacritic use, and after 3 1/2 months there was a 70%-30% majority in favor of diacritics. The voting has continued and the majority is now just under 60%. There have been more than a hundred votes, plenty of discussion, and the survey has run more than six months. The goal of the survey was to establish some kind of global policy that would obviate the need for case-by-case voting at individual articles. Unfortunately, the existence of the prior WP:RM vote was claimed by some to overrule the global survey and a new WP:RM vote was demanded before renaming the page back to its original name. That WP:RM has now been held and is now running overtime well past its normal duration.

Meanwhile, I would strongly suggest that Checkuser be run on the recent sockpuppets in the article history. -- Curps 20:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I have unprotected Ubeda/Úbeda and carried out the move. –Hajor 14:10, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

User:333222 unblocked

Back in July I indefinitely blocked this user for spamming porn images on articles to which they had no relation. They just politely requested unblocking which I just did. I'll remind them about the image uploading and placement policies, but I'd appreciate someone keeping an eye on this user while I'm away. - Mgm|^(talk) 18:17, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Federal Street

Federal Street has been labelled a {{sockpuppet}} of User:rktect; and he is certainly expressing a very similar PoV in similar articles. If he is a sockpuppet, he is violating Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Rktect#Remedies; if he is not, he should be vindicated and the tag removed. Septentrionalis 23:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

In Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Rktect/Evidence you will find furter proof that this is a sockpuppet of Rktect. If you ask me by email, I can provide you with further proof (which also reveals the identitiy of Rktect, thus the email). Rktect aka. Federal_Street has made a number of very significant edits since his ban [1], including [2] [3] [4] [5]. Can someone please make this stop? -- Egil 02:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Rktect and User:Federal Street blocked for 48 hours. --Carnildo 06:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Federal Street is not only doing the same sorts of edits as Rktect, they're using the same ISP in the same city — presumably he reconnected to get a different IP. It looks like a sock from here - David Gerard 08:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Skyring range block

I have blocked 203.51.0.0/18, the IP range that Skyring seems to be using most, for 3 hours. I hope this inconveniences him some - but it won't stop him, as he has several other ranges. ~~ N (t/c) 01:50, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

139.168.157.0/24 and 139.168.158.0/24 now. ~~ N (t/c) 02:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Those are Telstra ranges for Canberra, and Telstra is the largest ISP in Australia - admins blocking ranges to stop Skyring should be sure to stay on hand in case of collateral damage - David Gerard 08:29, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't be *too* worried about collateral damage; these addresses have been blocked before, and I've never heard any complaints from anyone from Canberra; I suspect we don't have many (if any at all) Telstra users. At the same time, though, we should be careful of accidentally blocking any new users. Ambi 14:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Why do we continue to fight this battle? What is the point? Even if we succeed all we'll have done is prevented the guy from making good edits. Everyking 14:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect, these IP addresses have continued the stalking and harassment that earned Skyring his one-year block in the first place. Demiurge 15:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, he has used IPs and phoney sockpuppet usernames to harrass one female user, accusing her of travelling to his house, stand outside and stalk him. (A complete fiction which upset the user.) He has posted personal attacks on over twenty talk pages on the basis that the victim of his attacks (me) had edited the pages. (He was originally banned for a year for stalking me.) He has also deleted a copyright violation notice, which could have had repercussions for wikipedia if his action meant that a potentially illegal image survived on wikipedia and left us open to a breach of copyright legal case. He has also used people's email links to spam users with unwanted messages.

Secondly, under Wikipedia rules a banned user cannot edit here. They are not allowed to so much a correct a spelling mistake. If bullyboy actions and threats allowed him to in effect overrule the arbcom ruling, and Jimbo who at one stage personally blocked him, then the arbcom would lose any power it has to control vandals and stalkers. You would be inviting a free-for-all in which people could vandalise what they want and stalk whomever they want in the knowledge that if they make themselves enough of a nuisance they'll be allowed to get away with it. The bottom line is simple: since September 2005 Skyring is persona non grata on Wikipedia and every edit he makes under any identity will be removed, without exception. Wikipedia has had to deal with similar assholes before, from User:DW to a host of others who have threatened the use of law, stalked people, abused people and vandalised articles. The DW case was a classic example. Everything he touched under his various identities was reverted or deleted, including a large number of articles. Eventually he got the message that he was banned and no longer welcome on Wikipedia, and left. We owe it to the hundreds of honourable Wikipedians who aren't vandals and stalkers to protect them from the small number that are. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 16:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I have a lot less sympathy for this argument when I recall that this "stalking" and "harassment" basically amounted to frequently correcting your spelling mistakes. Everyking 17:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Would Jimbo have banned someone for correcting typos? I think not. Ann Heneghan ^(talk) 18:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

That is not what the arbcom found, not Jimbo's views, and contradicted by others, who reported threats, abusive edit summaries, obnoxious abuse, spamming of users, stalking of Nixie and others, attacks on Wikipedia users on off-wikipedia sites and abuse on the wikilist that led him to be banned from the list. While everyone else makes it quite clear the contempt they hold him in you never stop defending your "pal" while attacking admins every chance you get. Some things never change: your attacks on me and your attempts to defend Skyring on every occasion and promote the myth of his victimhood. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 18:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Our Lady of Good Counsel High School

Delete this page, it has been a problem since it started. Full of rants of who is better at full ball, etc. V/ M
02:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

{{cleanup}}. Zach (Sound Off) 02:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I did it, but I am quite certain they will rant about football or such. V/M !
02:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Alright, then what we can do is issue block and try to NPOV the article, since the page will be kept if placed at AFD, since in the immortal words of Kappa "It's a school." Zach (Sound Off) 03:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm keeping my eye on it too. The current wording regarding football is better than what's been repeatedly added, altho it could still be improved... --Mairi 03:20, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I've added it to my watch list too. A user that added nonsense to it also added nonsense to Lake Braddock Secondary School, not sure if they are related in some way. chowells 00:57, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I've also added it to my watch list... as I had several friends attend the school, I think I know enough about the actual school to spot nonsense quickly.  ALKIVAR™ 20:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Block of 155.247.166.29

155.247.166.29 (talk · contribs) is reported by a user to be the IP address of the proxy server for the main Temple University library. (ARIN confirms Temple University.) The block seems a bit out of line.

• There were six edits on 18 October over a period of six hours. These edits are the basis for the block.
• The IP was warned and blocked at one stroke (there were no edits by this IP between the sole warning and the block being placed).
• The address was blocked for one week
• Another user asked quite nicely on 20 October on wikien-l [6] for the address to be unblocked
• The only response to the e-mail was: "See [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy proposal]]" [7]
• Four days later, no admin has cared to act. The IP is still blocked.

Could someone please consider unblocking this address? More importantly, could we try to be less Draconian about these blocks in the first place? --Tabor 18:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

done--Duk 19:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Unblocked. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 19:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

"Commercial" user names

I just came across User:Walt Disney World. Although the new user could just be a fan, the account could also be used to imply some sort of official connection to Walt Disney World. There is nothing at Wikipedia:Username#No deliberately confusing usernames, although I think that something probably should be added. BlankVerse ∅ 20:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Unblock of proxy 64.241.37.140

I unblocked 64.241.37.140 (talk · contribs) today so I could edit from Panera Bread, a local restaurant with a WiFi hotspot. I don't know what User:OwenX specifically blocked this IP for, but I'd ask admins in the future to be careful blocking this IP. I eat lunch at Panera two or three times a week and I often edit over lunch. It's mildly annoying to have to unblock before I can edit. I'll add the {{sharedip}} tag to the user talk page. Kelly Martin 21:23, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

OceanSplash

OceanSplash (talk · contribs) is a new and difficult user, who appears to be Ali Sina (to judge by the distinctive writing style and editing pattern), an anti-Islam activist who runs an arguably Islamophobic website, faithfreedom.org. [8] He's been inserting his own strong opinions into Ali Sina and Islamophobia by putting them in quotation marks and attributing them to Ali Sina, linking to his own website as the source. Ali Sina is also a pseudonym, so we're dealing with multi-layered anonymity, which is why we can't use him as a source, except in the article about him and even then with caution. I protected Islamophobia to stop a revert war, but OceanSplash has accused me of a conflict of interest because I've nominated for adminship one of the editors who opposes him on that page. I've therefore unprotected it. Could another admin please keep an eye on it, and consider reprotecting if he starts reverting again? Things should be quiet for the next 24 hours because Freestylefrappe has blocked him for disruption, after he started calling everyone who disagreed with him an Islamist despot, accused the Muslim editors of engaging in jihad while their "brothers" engage in terrorism, and made comments like "Muslims work in gang and support each other no matter what. The reason is that they have pack mentality." [9] Thanks, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Trollderella

[10] Please review urgently. Get someone other than David Gerard to do the checkuser. --redstucco 08:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

• I don't have access to the checkuser facility, but the evidence in the sock-tag looks rather insufficient to me. Trollderella and Tony Sidaway agreeing on deletion policy doesn't mean they are the same person. With that type of evidence one could easily conclude that Snowspinner is a sockpuppet of Tony Sidaway. Anything else which makes you suspect sockpuppetry here? Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree. No real evidence that I can see. Everyking 09:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oh well, I guess you go without - David Gerard 10:23, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Lest there be any doubt: no, Trollderella is not my sock. Long ago, I used a benign sock called WikiWikiWiki (talk · contribs) to perform some NPOV cleanups on an article that had been created by some usenet trolls without alerting them to my precise identity. When the article was deleted, with relief I quietly unmasked the sock and stopped using it. It is the only time I have ever edited this wiki from a user other than Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs) or its predecessor Minority Report (talk · contribs). --Tony Sidaway^Talk 11:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh Tony - you would say that, wouldn't you?! You're so busted. I guess you'll have to find a new sockpuppet from now on! Trollderella 16:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The real question is whose sock is RedStucco, and is it being used to vote twice in VfD? Any user including David Gerrard should feel free to do the checkuser. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Rudolf Hess

Would someone please protect Rudolf Hess? It's getting spillover vandalism and propaganda (multiple reverts by the the same anon) from Prussian Blue (American duo) which is now protected. Thanks. Wyss 10:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The edits all come from 12.75.*.* IPs, such as 12.75.233.178, 12.75.246.230 and 12.75.235.31. They use an edit message similar to "Added Final War Song edited out by biased zionists". Unfortunately the IP seems relatively dyanmic so I'm not convinced that there can be much done apart from protecting and watiting until the people on the Prussian Blue forum get bored [11]. chowells 11:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

User:RESTUREN

Can someone investigate this bot (see block log for info) - it seems to have been adding tags to articles without explanation. --Hoddle 10:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

In case anyone missed it, Hoddle himself is a sock of the vandal. [12] -- Curps 15:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It's a known vandal. Blocked indefinitely by me at 09:48 (UTC). Lupo 10:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Lupo, this is a vandalbot, right?? On the user page it said it was run by User:Pasboudin but the page has been edited to say it's run by Willy on Wheels. What do we do about auto vandalbot scripts?? --Hoddle 10:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know or care who it is, just as I don't know who you are. In any case it seems to be someone who doesn't like User:Pasboudin. This kind of vandalism has been going on for quite some time; see e.g. the history of the Girls Aloud article. BTW, how did you find this page on your first edit? Lupo 10:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Because the following were created in one hit? Bloodoak; Blacksocks; Cropblade; Drive-by shooting is fun!; Jewel Green; Hoddle; Solyock. Both they and the vandalbot are being operated from UK universities, though different ones in this case - David Gerard 11:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

One of the vandals is about to get a pile of usernames blocked, and you'll recognise some of the names from higher on this page - David Gerard 11:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Check the logs for "Hotrocks vandal". You'll see a Metric Shitload of usernames, most of which have been quite knowledgeably trolling Wikipedia for quite some time. The usage pattern of the IP also goes back to late 2004, so even though it looks dynamic it doesn't seem to be in practice. I fully expect this hard-working vandalbotting dickhead to pop up elsewhere, of course, and e.g. might block their university in its entirely if that'll catch said institution's attention - David Gerard 11:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

That wouldn't be appropiate, would it. - brenneman^(t)(c) 12:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It's a major vandalbotter that's been attacking us for a year. I urge you to become better informed before adding an opinion, in the interests of quality communication - David Gerard 12:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Which university? Any idea on the amount of collateral damage that would result? android79 12:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Liverpool John Moores University (http://www.jmu.ac.uk/), but we've known that for some time, eg: some contributions and [13]. Contact info is at the latter URL... all those who wish to contact the university and its network admins are certainly free to do so, I don't think you need permission from anyone, but I don't know how long they keep log files. The university uses the range 150.204.0.0/16. -- Curps 14:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I presume that we will make a good-faith effort to contact the University's sysadmins. If that doesn't work then yes, we may need to take more drastic action. Running vandalbots and actively vandalizing Wikipedia for a year is not exactly a minor thing. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:51, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I say hold off on the contact yet. I think the vandal will give up if we just block the IP for 2/3 weeks - then they'll give up. --A1x 12:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Another first-time poster, posting here. Didn't you already "promise" to give up three weeks ago? [14]. -- Curps 14:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

A1x is coming in from jmu.ac.uk. Gosh! etc - David Gerard 14:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I suggest we don't block User:82.42.151.164 as that IP, like some anon IPs that post on here, make good contributions sometimes. Anon IPs can make good contributions sometimes. --Craig Whitford 13:53, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

No, it's definitely the same guy, all the way through, back to late 2004. The areas of interest are consistent. And this person has been doing Willyish vandalism, stored-up accounts and all, not just adding "on Wheels" to his name. This is a bad one, who's been stupid just enough to get caught. Who's Chris Chubbs, by the way? - David Gerard 14:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

No idea, but let's just see if there's any more vandalism over the next few days. --195.188.50.200 14:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Yowch, JMU is a pretty big university with nearly 25,000 students. This is bound to cause some collateral. I think we should contact the uni sysadmins first, but if that's fruitless then I'm not opposed to blocking the lot. Which university were the other attacks traced to? the wub "?!" 17:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

More on Sleeper Trolls

Ok, calm down everyone!! I didn't mean that a plot is imminent, or that even one is fully planned. I just wanted to alert everyone that the people are getting in place to disrupt Wikipedia from their admin positions. The discussions that I saw involved a coordinated attack with blocking and re-blocking admins, massive file and image deletion, confusing page merges and vandalizing and locking the main pages. But nonetheless, even if this attack is still in the planning stages, these sleepers are still subtly disrupting Wikipedia by opposing obviously good young admin candidates, closing out AfD's against consensus, and defending/unblocking obvious trolls and disruptive editors.

I would also keep a close eye on the upcoming Arbcom elections this fall, especially on the newer faces in the race. Just a tip.Wikiphilosopher 13:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could give names of disruptive admins, examples of disruption, or other evidence by with you came to this conclusion. ~~ N (t/c) 13:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure you might understand that I'm not a complete turncoat or snitch. That's not honorable nor is it in my nature. You are all intelligent people and I know that you can think of examples of exactly about what I'm talking on your own. Especially in the last few months. Wikiphilosopher 14:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing honorable about protecting people who intend to destroy Wikipedia. Though, for security reasons (per David Gerard below), I suggest that if you do want to give more specific evidence you email it to the Foundation instead of posting it publicly. I can think of some examples of disruptive admin conduct in the last few months, but no evidence of an organized pattern of bad faith. ~~ N (t/c) 17:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

YHBT. HAND. Ahem.

It occurs to me that one of the more effective trolling tactics would be to accuse some unspecified population of admins of being sleeper trolls and vandals, and then letting the rest of us argue over it. Please don't feed the Wikiphilosopher. Until he demonstrates that he has something useful to say, I recommend giving him just as much attention as his comments deserve: none. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, if there is something to it it would be nice to know. ~~ N (t/c) 17:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, but the role account/sock Wikiphilosopher doesn't seem to want to tell us. The idea that someone could deliberately earn our trust in order to set up a later betrayal is not exactly an original or novel concept. If he has evidence he could email it to David Gerard or some other trustworthy individual for confidential investigation; it would, in fact, be very helpful and I encourage him to do so. Posting "Somehow, somewhere, someone is out to get us" messages on WP:AN/I doesn't serve any useful purpose—we already know that there are trolls and vandals who are out to get us. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not naming names because I very very very much want to bust them. But I do know of cases where assiduous good usernames angling for admin are strongly suspected of being operated by banned users who have been bragging elsewhere about how easy it is to game the Wikipedia system. This might be teenage bragging, but it's eminently plausible — look at what some of our admins do already and tell me adminship is a big deal. And bored teenagers can work very hard at fucking up shit in spectacular ways - David Gerard 14:48, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikiphilosopher, are all your friends quite so honorable? Infiltration is a two-way street. Not to mention, fundraising would raise a financial reward for any information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone responsible for such an attack. The post-9/11 security overreaction to anything resembling sleeper cells and carefully planned coordinated large-scale attacks is likely to be severe. The hypothetical attack you're describing would certainly get the attention of law enforcement and you'd be surprised how quickly chat transcripts and e-mails would be produced as if by magic. Honor tends to go up in smoke at the plea-bargaining table. -- Curps 14:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I wish the stakes were sufficient - it's hard enough getting ISPs to listen to us: "Oh, you're from a website anyone can edit. And you say our user's editing you. Uhhhhh-huh." ;-) - David Gerard 15:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

In the aftermath of this hypothetical massive attack, the stakes would indeed be sufficient. Not only ISPs but law enforcement would take an interest. The "anyone can edit" shouldn't be a problem, it's not unique to Wikipedia, it also applies to most message forum sites and is not a license for vandal behavior. The terms of service of most ISPs would apply, for instance AOL's Rules of Conduct mentions "abusive", "harassing" and "deceptive" posts and "impersonat[ing] any person or entity". -- Curps 16:10, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Abuse, harrassment, deception, and impersonation are definitely NOT Homeland Security matters - the worst we could do to someone is have their Internet connection terminated. ~~ N (t/c) 17:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Obviously I agree, they're not. Please don't misconstrue what I wrote: see my reply to Wikiphilosopher below to understand what I was referring to.

By the way, the threat of loss of Internet connection can be a surprisingly effective deterrent. Most vandals use their ISP for other non-vandal activities and having to change e-mail address or explain to family members why the "Internet stopped working" (or worse yet, having to explain themselves to their school or employer) is not worth their while. In the case of anonymous IP vandals who use an IP range, ToSsing the vandal (reporting Terms of Service violation) is a viable option that should be tried a little more often and more systematically. I have an idea in mind for this: write a little script to extract contribution history and prepare a nicely formatted evidence page with all IPs and timestamps converted to the ISP's local timezone and display the ISP's abuse contact phone and e-mail (from ARIN or RIPE or APNIC), and then any user who's sufficiently motivated or annoyed by the vandal's conduct can take it upon themselves to contact the ISP and provide them with a link to the evidence page. I have a test case in mind. -- Curps 01:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Curps, please dont let this rub you wrong, but get a grip! Comparing what we're talking about to 9/11 is almost sickening. And your suggestion that the Department of Homeland Security would take any interest whatsoever in the possible hi-jinks of rouge editors and admins on Wikipedia is one sign that you perhaps need to re-evaluate your perceptions of the importance of this site. And David Gerard is right. Teenage/College-age bored computer kids will spend no small amount of time on here to acheive their prankster goals. (Not that it takes that much time, I mean, a good "sleeper" will have 10 edits a day, and over weeks that adds up. It should only take 30 mins a day, and even less with a high speed internet connection, which most college campuses offer now).Wikiphilosopher 17:39, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikiphilosopher, my apologies for expressing myself poorly. I am in no way comparing the gravity and tragedy of 9/11 with vandalism of Wikipedia. Here's what I'm saying: post-9/11, there is a tendency among law enforcement to overreact to any perceived threat ("not on my watch" syndrome). Nowadays, people who crack jokes about having a bomb in their luggage at the airport aren't just removed from flights, in a few cases some have actually served short prison sentences... for cracking a joke.

Anything to do with sleeper cells waking up to conduct coordinated mass attacks (reminiscent of al-Qaeda tactics) will automatically involve great suspicion... law enforcement would find it hard to believe that so many months of planning and effort and preparation would go into merely disrupting Wikipedia, and would probably consider that it was a dress rehearsal for attacks on far more vital computing infrastructure. They would spend a lot of time and effort investigating, and they hate to do that and walk away empty-handed. Even if they found there was nothing to it but vandalizing Wikipedia, they would file charges for something, make a big case out of it and make it stick.

Since Wikipedia is based in the US, American prosecutors and law enforcement would get involved. If anyone's unfamiliar with the American system, district attorneys (prosecutors), attorneys general, and even the local sheriff's office are very often elected positions, and are stepping stones for higher political office (consider Rudy Giuliani and Eliot Spitzer). For such people, a high-profile case can be a godsend, a golden opportunity to be seized, a chance to get camera time and media exposure at press conferences and establish a reputation for expertise in new emerging areas such as cyberspace. There are a lot of excessively ambitious type-A personalities out there looking for their big break, something that could advance their career or make their career.

A hypothetical massive attack on Wikipedia that resulted in more than a few days' downtime would be very widely discussed in the blogosphere. There's a relatively new phenomenon of blogs keeping a story alive and reviving it after it's been forgotten or ignored by the traditional media (consider the political downfall of Trent Lott), and that would apply here. Also, I guarantee you that a five-figure reward would be raised for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the culprits, which would generate more buzz in its own right. News producers for the mainstream media are always looking for a story, law enforcement and prosecutorial officers are always looking for a high-profile case, and if one or more take the bait you'd be surprised how fast the thing could snowball under the right circumstances. If criminal records result from silly youthful pranks that perhaps didn't merit it, well, it wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

I'm just outlining a possible scenario which is by no means a sure thing but is considerably more plausible than you may realize. -- Curps 21:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Very widely discussed by <0.001% of the world's population, you say? Do tell! silsor 21:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Seemingly minor things can easily get blown up into very major things when someone stands to gain financially, politically or careerwise. Plenty of real life examples. Here's to all of this remaining hypothetical. -- Curps 00:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I just hate it when people use the word "blogosphere" in a serious context. silsor 15:28, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Anyone interested in this phenomenon may find the material at User:UninvitedCompany/notes to be insightful. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 18:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Uninvited, I looked at the material. What exactly should I infer from it? Ëvilphoenix ^Burn! 18:35, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Oy vey. I notice there are very few active m:stewards, whose intervention (or a developer's, ideally, as they could lock the site as well) would be needed to deal with this type of incident. More would be nice. ~~ N (t/c) 18:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

all I can see here is Wikiphilosopher trying to make himself seem important or interesting. This is all childish. So some kids try to damage wikipedia. How is that new? Rogue admins will be de-adminned quickly. If we get admins who are not really rogues but just turn out to be generally trollish, we'll need a de-admining procedure to de-admin people with whom the community is fed up. Nickptar is right, we may need bureaucrats to be able to de-admin, so hypothetical vandal-admins can be quickly dealt with. How the sybillic comments of Wikiphilosopher have any bearing on this is beyond me. Anyone can create an account and claim to be in the know about serious complots. For all you know, I may be Wikiphilosopher, making it all up as I go along. Be prepared. Don't pay attention to breathless oracles. 81.63.114.127 21:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Rogue admins will be de-adminned quickly. Do tell? Precedent suggests quite the opposite. --RougeHand 23:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

An admin who starts deleting and vandalizing? I think they'd be desysopped within a few minutes. Everyking 02:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

No, they would be desysopped the next time a steward or developer checked his/her mail. We don't have many stewards or developers, so it might even take an hour. Other admins could and would hold off major destruction for a while, but it would be a constant battle. ~~ N (t/c) 12:20, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

You forget IRC.Geni 17:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I think we should take heed of what David Gerard said. He knows this site and its characters better than just about anyone. Anyway, I should tell more about the "sleeper troll" admins that I know of. Just look for admins that:

• whose accounts are about 6 months old
• are between 17-20 years old or so
• whose vast majority of edits have been to talk pages and Wikipedia non-article space
• who lack substantial article contributions, or whose article contributions mostly consist of minor edits

Contributions of this kind allow the user to keep a high edit count and get his name known through community interaction without actually having to contribute much time or substance to Wikipedia. Like I said, 10 edits a day over a few months adds up...Wikiphilosopher 13:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Uh-oh. I fit that profile perfectly. ~~ N (t/c) 13:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Aha! You're one of them commie mutant traitors, aren't you?! ;-) Kirill Lokshin 13:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikiphilosopher you claim to know details of a plan for a highly harmful attack on wikipedia. You wont hand over these detials. This means you are either trolling or aiding those who wish to harm us. Either way can you explain why I shouldn't block you?Geni 17:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Settle down. Making threats like that is just feeding the trolls. I'm trying to help. Why shouldn't I block you for being so rude and uncivil to a fellow editor?Wikiphilosopher 18:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

If you were trying to help you would give names. Thus it appears the only troll here is you. In answer two your second question; A because you can't; B becuase personal attacks are not a blockerble offence. I don't play games. For you it is put up or shut up time. Comprehend?Geni 18:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Blockerble? Nothing I've done is "blockerble" either. So stop trying to bully people and grow up please.Wikiphilosopher 18:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Wikiphilosopher has been blocked infinitey for trolling/impersination/dissruptive sock.Geni 18:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Prosecuting Wikipedia Trolls and Vandals

Besides, no-one is going to be impressed by a prosecutor "chasing vandals" on a website "anyone can edit." In real life they would probably laugh at him for wasting the resources and time of his office. I simply think that you have to take a step back and really reconsider how important you think Wikipedia is in society. Plus, you're confusing Federal and State jurisdictions. Sorry.Wikiphilosopher 15:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

• I suggest you single them out by placing this tag {{Sleeper_troll}} on their user pages once you suspect them, we can compile a list at [[category:Know Sleeper Trolls]] and [[Category:Suspected Sleeper Trolls]], what do you think of such an idea?--64.12.116.5 18:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

64.12.166.*, please stop placing {{sleeper troll}} templates on various pages. Your suggestion is unhelpful.

Wikiphilosopher, you are right that Wikipedia does not (yet?) have the importance that many of us hope it will have in the future, and I have a realistic understanding of this. It's not the importance of the target, it's the alleged tactics that would get attention. This would be the equivalent of TPing the school principal's house, except then you find out that the vandals rented office space, trucks, and a warehouse full of industrial supplies and conducted months of reconnaissance and preparation, got jobs in the local police department, etc. You'd wonder, why the implausibly elaborate planning and more importantly, if they're willing to go that far, what else are they planning in the future? Your "step back and reconsider how important" advice would best apply to anyone who would spend months of their lives to plan such a scheme with nothing to gain. -- Curps 20:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, now that I've been labeled a "sleeper troll", I suppose I should go out and start using my admin powers to delete hundreds of images or something like that. Oh, wait, I already have ;-). --Carnildo 22:36, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, no, lets not go overboard. It would be like perhaps doing reconnaisance for months but nothing more. Like I said before, it doesn't take that much time to become an admin on here, especially considering the people who we're dealing with (bored teens.) And it doesn't take any financial committment at all, so its not like "renting trucks, office space," etc. What does everyone else think of this idea?Wikiphilosopher 20:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Blocking of IPs more than 24 hours is impossible?

Over the last month, User:129.15.120.186 has been blocked a number of times by various admins (See [15]. On October 17, I placed a one month block on this user for continued vandalism after three other blocks had no effect. Despite the one month block, the user was still able to conduct edits on Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/NickBush24, User:Redwolf24, User:NickBush24, User:Durin, User talk:Drini and User talk:NickBush24, most of which were additional vandalism. Following these edits, User:Drini and User:Essjay both blocked him, the last of which is an additional 1 month block. At this point, it appears the blocking is having no effect. I asked Drini about this [16], and he does not know why the blocks are not having an effect either. Reviewing Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Effects_of_being_blocked, I find this puzzling passage: "There is an internal autoblock expiry time variable, which is set to 24 hours, meaning that when a username is blocked indefinitely, their IP will be automatically unblocked 24 hours after they last accessed a page" Curious. So, any block against an IP of more than 24 hour duration is in reality just a 24 hour block? Would someone please explain this? --Durin 15:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea why the IP wouldn't be staying blocked, but the passage you quoted says when a username is blocked indefinitely, the IP autoblock associated with its username will only stay blocked for 24 hours. Whether that applies to when an IP is blocked indefinitely or not still seems an open question though. · Katefan0^(scribble) 16:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone who knows the deeper working of MediaWiki bugs may be more help, but I've noticed a few anecdotal comments about a double block bug. These, from memory appeared to indicate an occasional need to lift all such blocks if they have been doubled up on, and then re-block just once. -Splash^talk 18:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Aside: do we want to put such an extensive block on an IP address shared by thousands of people? (This IP is in the CIDR block 129.15.0.0/16 used by the University of Oklahoma.) Mindmatrix 18:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

• From my own experience IPs that are blocked should stay blocked for the specified duration. The 24 hour thing is only for IP autoblocks associated with blocks on usernames. My guess would be it's a doubleblock bug, or perhaps they were somehow unblocked... - Mgm|^(talk) 18:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • It's not a double block problem; the user was blocked for 1 month, and made edits after that point (as noted above) before Drini placed the second, 24 hour block. --Durin 20:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
• I compared the IP's contributions and block log, and found that in every case but two, the IP has not edited before the expiry of the block. In the first case, he/she made two edits to the IP's talk page; the software permits blocked IPs and users to do this, so it's nothing to worry about. The second case involves the 1-month block. It seems that at some point shortly before or after the IP was blocked, a user logged in from the same IP, was blocked, and triggered the autoblocker on his IP. When the autoblock expired after 24 hours, the 1-month block expired as well, since at the conclusion of the shortest block, all other blocks are always cleared. Everything appears to be working as intended. — Dan | Talk 20:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

That particular IP has been problematic, harrassing NickBush24, who attends the same university. I discussed it with Nick, who blieves he may know who the vandal is. My guess is that Nick (and any other legit contributor from that university) probably is assigned that IP on occasion, and that is tripping up our blocks. I'm monitoring it, as Nick's page is a pretty frequent target of vandalism, so if I see any problems, I'll clear out the blocks and set a new one. -- Essjay · Talk 21:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

So a blocked IP can log into a registered account, access a page, and trip the 24 autoblock on his IP thus clearing a longer duration block? This seems a bit of a flaw, and if a person knows how to do this can prevent being blocked for more than 24 hours under their IP. --Durin 13:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

User:EEEE and nosource image tags

This user's only edits are the addition of nosource tags to a handful of images. These are in nearly all cases images where the source is implicit from the tags, the nature of the image, or the commentary accompanying the image. Since there is a project underway to delete unsourced images, this is of particular concern. Though administrators participating in the unsourced image deletion project are being careful, there is at least the potential for mistakes, and bot-generated notification messages are being sent to uploaders of the affected images.

I have asked User:EEEE for an explanation, though I doubt that one, if forthcoming at all, will be illuminative since EEEE is clearly a sock. Newbies don't just show up and start adding image tags.

Please be on the lookout for bogus additions of the nosource tag, just as you would watch for bogus additions of speedy deletion tags. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

SUPER COOL and 83.92.*.*

Just added to User:SuperTroll by me:

There is a user running the same variety of MediaWiki vandalbot software, often at similar times, based in Denmark. This vandalbot comes in from the range 83.92.128.0/17. User names include Programmer X and Programmer-X. Non-vandalbot posts include the brag that they are the creator of the SUPER COOL bot (the text appears to be English translated into Dutch by Babelfish or similar).

83.92.*.* is where the SuperTroll-like vandal in Denmark comes in from. They use the same vandalbot software as SuperTroll, but ST is based in the UK - David Gerard 19:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

linkscamming

Here's a new wrinkle I've not seen before, and one that is clearly dishonest (although I'm not quite sure what they scammer is trying to achieve). 207.112.87.176 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) changed a link on Tera Patrick from "terapatrick.com" (which is owned by an adult movie company associated with the actress) to "terapatricks.com", which whois shows to be owned by "monicker.com". Visit it with your browser (not worksafe) and you'll not notice - you're just redirected to the former name. But a check with wget shows what's really going on:

--20:00:33--  http://www.terapatricks.com/
           => `index.html'
Resolving www.terapatricks.com... 66.197.34.230
Connecting to www.terapatricks.com[66.197.34.230]:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found
Location: http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=902638-0000&PA=573890&HTML=http://www.terapatrick.com [following]
--20:00:33--  http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=902638-0000&PA=573890&HTML=http://www.terapatrick.com
           => `clicks.cgi@CA=902638-0000&PA=573890&HTML=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.terapatrick.com'
Resolving refer.ccbill.com... 64.38.240.20
Connecting to refer.ccbill.com[64.38.240.20]:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found
Location: http://www.terapatrick.com [following]
--20:00:34--  http://www.terapatrick.com/
           => `index.html'
Resolving www.terapatrick.com... 64.38.205.102
Connecting to www.terapatrick.com[64.38.205.102]:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found
Location: http://www.yourworstenemy.com [following]
--20:00:34--  http://www.yourworstenemy.com/
           => `index.html'
Resolving www.yourworstenemy.com... failed: Host not found.

So I think this is some kind of clickfarming, as (despite its name) ccbill.com doesn't appear to be concerned with credit card billing. I'd recommend folks seeing similar domain-name changes do a dig/whois to see if the old name and the new one really are operated by the same folks. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

CCbill is, I think a company that does billing for various vendors of erotica, handling online checks, bell to telephone numbers, and possibly soem credit card billing also. If they also sell ads or click-farms it is new to me. DES ^(talk) 20:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I've got the impression from elsewhere that they are doing pay per click referrals, though I'm not 100% sure. chowells 01:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

CCbill do provide an affiliate/referral service CCbill affiliate program. Looks like this was a good catch by Finlay. --GraemeL ^(talk) 12:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Trollbot?

I've permanently blocked Quickie smalls (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), an account which has been used only to inject the same bizarre threat-rant on a seemingly random selection of talk pages. The fact that it's the same each time, and the apparent randomness of its postings leads me to believe it's a bot, and the antagonistic-yet-meaningless nature of the posts is classic trolling. I've a nasty feeling he'll be back. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

• You will confined to him, he will be exposed, and the conspiratory nature will not prevail, the esperanza-gate incidents will be avendged soon by you--Solchak Von Nostrum 22:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Would a bot thumb its nose at you in such a direct manner? :-) — Dan | Talk 23:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Jtdirl vs. Skyring

Jtdirl (talk · contribs) has been fighting with alleged Skyring sockpuppets again. When Violetriga (talk · contribs) left him a message on his talk page asking him to consider his actions, he removed it without comment and vprotected the page, although a glance at the history finds no recent vandalism. I have no dog in this feud between him and Skyring (except to express annoyance at a very lame revert war on Avengers (comics)), but I think that Jtdirl is using his admin powers a tad inappropriately in this vprotect situation. I merely bring it to your attention; do as thou wilt. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

That is not what happened. skyring targeted my page for repeat attacks. A host of users were involved in reverting the attacks. At one stage 18 sockpuppets attacks in 2 hours. I appreciated all the defence. I thought however that it was wrong to put users constantly in the position of protecting my page from Skyring attacks. After discussing it with Wikipedians off Wikipedia (discussions on Wikipedia are invariably gatecrashed by Skyring and his sockpuppet family — at one stage he was using a sockpuppet to defend himself, then reponding openly as himself —) I decided to protect it to take the pressure of users. Re Violetriga's comments, I replied privately by email and as the communications were private I removed the comment of my page, and explained to her the reasons why. Because she did not know what the page was protected I added in the vprotected template. It was not intended in any way to suggest that I was either censoring her comments or that her edit was vandalism, and she understands that. Users who have been at the receiving end of Skyring's stalking — and his behaviour has driven some people from Wikipedia. He level of nuttiness can be seen in the fact that he picked on an innocent user, began harrassing her and accused her of physically stalking outside his house and stalking him! — understand exactly what has been going on. Khaosworks clearly doesn't. Maybe unlike many others he never noticed. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 19:07, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I obviously misread the situation, then, regarding the vprotect - mea maxima culpa. It simply looked like that to me. That being said, if it leads to a resolution to this constant back and forth between Jtdirl and Skyring, perhaps it was a mistake worth making. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

These "repeat attacks" were me placing a message on your talk page, asking for your assistance in resolving our differences. OK, it was wrong of me to persevere if you didn't want to discuss those issues, and from this day forward I won't raise them again, despite how upset I was at the time. I won't ask you to forgive and forget, but can you find it in your heart to move forward on this? I like making edits to improve Wikipedia, and it is very frustrating when you revert them. --Skyring, under the name of GatherTogether 19:23, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Skyring is being a major scourge, has many years' practice being an incredible pain in the arse on every internet community he's been on, and Jtdirl is his main target here. Those criticising should possibly try taking over Skyring watch - David Gerard 23:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not criticizing his handling of Skyring. I agree that Skyring is a cancer that should be excised. However, what I question is removing a comment, and then vprotecting his page, implying that Violetriga (talk · contribs) is a vandal. Surely that's inappropriate? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 00:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Page protection exists for a limited set of purposes. The protection policy lists only three for temporary protection: edit wars, persistent vandalism, and software bugs. It moreover cautions that "[t]alk pages and user talk pages are not protected as a rule, except in extreme circumstances." There doesn't seem to be any discussion anywhere I can find about extending page protection to authorize administrators to protect their own user talk pages at will. So yes, this seems to be a use of admin powers for a purpose beyond administrator duties. --FOo 02:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I will take over Skyring watch. What will this entail? Will I rubberstamp his good edits, or what? Everyking 02:32, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

While it is true that Skyring, while banned, is not allowed to do any editing on Wikipedia, it should be pointed out that if he just made a few spelling corrections while editing from an IP address, nobody would know that it was Skyring, and nobody would go back and revert them. The problem is that he's not content to make just a few spelling corrections – it's his behaviour towards Jtdirl that identifies him. Ann Heneghan ^(talk) 02:37, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

You will need to revert all of his edits and make them yourself (which should keep you busy enough anyway); merely rubberstamping isn't good enough since his edits may not stand. Otherwise we have to fight over whether a banned user's edits can or cannot be reverted on an edit-by-edit basis. Then, you'll have to work out whether each of his IPs is an open proxy, as many are, and indefintely block each of them. You will at times need to apply range blocks to non-open proxies to prevent him editing in the first place. You'll also need to determine which new accounts are his, block them, revert their edits and make them yourself. You'll need to tolerate the stalking and threats that come with doing all thist. Etc etc etc. -Splash^talk 02:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

jtdirl has helpfully provided a list of sockpuppets at User:Skyring, though on checking, at least two of these are incorrect, unless Skyring is also SuperTroll (user:62.24.143.171) or is posting from Ireland (user:AULDBITCH LOVES YOU) --02:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC) Oooops! --ForestStag 02:58, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Everyking might start by examing this ↑ highly knowledegable new editor who has so far about 20 edits with a pattern of contributions of helpfully copyediting articles. And who has forged their signature since they are really User:ForestStag. -Splash^talk 02:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Drat! I'm uncovered. Well done. Perhaps you could also provide an example of that "stalking and threats", hmmmm? --ForestStag 03:00, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, if somebody was to leave me in charge, I'd say if someone's making good contributions, or even if only 2/3rds of their contributions are good, let them edit and ignore the suspicions. I suppose that's a radical philosophy. I'm only concerned with what helps improve the encyclopedia. "Stalking" somebody by following their edits and making edits after them is only a bad thing if the "stalker" edits are harmful. I honestly do not understand why someone would object to having a "stalker" follow them around doing helpful cleanup. Everyking 07:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

It flabbergasts me that you can constantly rail against admins as wild vigilantes taking harmful actions that trample over others' rights with no regard for decency and propriety on the one hand, and then trumpet Skyring's nastiness (would *you* like uninvited individuals following you around in real life "amending" your errors because you're clearly not capable of it yourself?) as being beneficial and helpful on the other hand. How is it that admins are always being flagrant rule-breakers who sneer at due process, and Skyring is a poor maligned helpful soul? Why so one-eyed? Slac speak up! 07:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know where you get this idea about me and other admins, but I don't think Skyring has a perfect record, I just think if somebody wants to improve articles, copyedit and such, they should be allowed to do so. Everyking 08:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

But that is not his intent, Everyking. It is his malice which identifies him and which belies any claim that he simply wants to make "good edits". If he truly wanted, he could edit Wikipedia and we would be none the wiser. However, he wants blood: he edits here not because he has Wikipedia’s interests at heart, but because he wants to hit back at those who he deems responsible for his sanction by the ArbCom. Essentially, he refuses to accept responsibility for the actions that saw him punished. He is incapable of recognising his own faults, and thus seeks to invent or exaggerate those of others. Skyring is a bully and should not be tolerated. Indeed, in any other community, he would not be.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 11:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

(indent reset) I don't see how you can bully someone by correcting spelling. Now, if Skyring were to correct spelling and explicitly harass Jtdirl, he should be blocked & the harassment reverted & his ban reset, but I see no reason to damage the articles by reverting the spelling corrections, or to take the exceedingly pointless action of reverting the corrections and then making them yourself. ~~ N (t/c) 12:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that it would set a bad precedent allowing a hard-banned contributor to continue to edit "constructively" without modification of the ban (I understand that the infamous Michael managed to rehabilitate himself but there was a long carefully-managed process to it). As to whether you can bully someone by "correcting spelling", you want to read some of the "wikistalking" complaints that appear on WP:RFC and WP:RFAr. Phil | Talk 15:21, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is full of "bad precedents" if you look for them. When you get down to bedrock, Wikipedia is a website with a bunch of people wondering how to cope with the demand and build for the future and while they are doing that, newcomers are laying down avenues, planting trees, raising barns, consecrating cathedrals and marking out circles in the sand for the two guys who are fighting over where to put the bull-ring. It's being built faster than it's being planned. The whole lot is jerry-built and it's a testament to co-operation that we've managed to get this far.

Forget the rules. Ignore all rules. It's just a website, not a religion, not a government, not a court of law. It's a website that allows anyone to edit.

What works is consensus. This community talks about issues, explores options, tries solutions and finds mechanisms that work. Common sense eventually prevails, even if it takes a few rounds in the bull-ring for the crowd to see who is in the right, rather than who has the bigger balls.

What's more important to Wikipedia? Encouraging constructive edits or enforcing website rules? Because when you get down to it, there is no "hard-banning". Wikipedia allows anybody to edit, and the world is full of Internet cafes. --SummeryWarm 16:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The chief problem is not that Skyring keeps coming back to fix typos. Quite frankly, if he did take the opportunity to accept a clean slate and contribute productively, most people probably wouldn't be troubled by that. Further, nobody here–save for David Gerard–would have any way of knowing it was him again.

The problem is that Skyring was banned for harrassing stalking other editors (primarily Jtdirl). By following Jtdirl around and editing articles immediately after Jtdirl does, each new Skyring account is announcing "I'm still here; you can't get rid of me; I'll follow you around as much as I like and you can't do anything about it." In other words, it was the stalking which got Skyring banned in the first place, and it is the continued stalking that identifies each new Skyring sock.

Simply put, Skyring would be welcome if he were to use Special:Randompage–or practically any other method besides Jtdirl's contributions list–to find articles with typos. While he continues to follow Jtdirl, he and his edits are barred. To do otherwise is to announce "As long as you're making productive edits, it's okay to harrass our other editors, ignore the ArbCom, and be an asshole." TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the evidence, Skyring is using Random Page (or some other idiosyncratic method) to find articles to edit. jtdirl then comes along, reverts a good edit and blocks the account. Look at jtdirl's contributions and examine the history of the articles he's revert-warring. His edits follow Skyring's. You are surely not suggesting that the following list of articles have anything to do with jtdirl's usual interests?

• Wallflower
• Mezmerize
• Avengers (comics)
• National-Louis University
• Kirby Award
• Bill Campbell (CEO)
• Fustanella
• DiscJuggler
• Sustanon
• Kiev
• Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra
• Wynnedale, Indiana
• and so on, all taken from jtdirl's contributions. --SummeryWarm 17:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Just to correct something here, Jtdirl's talk page was protected before my comments there. violet/riga (t) 17:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

If Skyring truly wanted to make helpful contributions to Wikipedia, he would hit "Random Article" and correct it, without even bothering about Jtdirl anymore and no one would bother him. However, the stalking that TenOfAllTrades describes is completely unacceptable behavior, which got him banned by the ArbCom. If Skyring would just forget about the whole deal and edit, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Titoxd^(?!?) 17:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's a list of the contributions of a Skyring sock. They look pretty random to me. --SummeryWarm 17:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the articles to which TheOneGirl has contributed, I see articles like Kirby Award (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Mezmerize (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), National-Louis University (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Avengers (comics) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and so forth. A very brief glance at those articles' histories will show that all of them involved edits by a succession of Skyring socks: Truetoform (talk · contribs), Safeground (talk · contribs), DungareeDoll (talk · contribs), Aroundtheworld (talk · contribs), Onlyapapermoon (talk · contribs), RunningFree (talk · contribs), and TheOneGirl (talk · contribs). If anyone can't see why Skyring was banned based on those article histories....TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you could explain it, as this evidence shows your comments above to be incorrect. In each case an article untouched by jtdirl was randomly selected, a good edit was made, and jtdirl then came along, reverted the edits, blocked the account and sparked an edit war over multiple accounts. In several cases he vprotected an article when it is clear that no vandalism had in fact occurred. --GatherTogether 18:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if we could have a sock check on SummeryWarm (talk · contribs), too, as he sure looks a lot like another Skyring incarnation. I'd like to be able to assume good faith, but it takes most users more than fourteen edits and twenty-four hours to find their way to WP:AN/I and start a Skyring argument. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't consider it necessary. The edits may look random to SummeryWarm, but SummeryWarm doesn't look random to me. The user page is classic Skyring. I've blocked for being a banned user. --Michael Snow 18:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Whoever it is, it sounds commendably sane compared to most of the arguments I hear about this topic. Everyking 18:54, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I see that jtdirl has commenced editing for his usual session. Before this degenerates into yet another lame edit war (and I admit my obsessive behaviour is no better than anyone else's) can I ask that we both put aside our differences and find some way of co-existing that allows us both to make productive edits?

I would like to make a public apology to jtdirl for causing him distress. He is a good editor and this foolish conflict is a waste of his time. And mine, for what it's worth. I admit to being a pedantic prick, but I fancy that there is room for me to make good edits here, and I would like more than anything else here to find a solution. Can we at least try to find this? --Skyring, trading as GatherTogether 19:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

That's a start, I think. But if you want to be able to edit legitimately again, I recommend that you contact Jimbo Wales or the Arbitration Committee, as they're the ones with the authority to lift your ban. Discuss the matter with them (privately over email is probably best), and maybe an appropriate resolution can be reached. --Michael Snow 19:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I've actually done both over the past day or two. Neither Jimbo or David suggested I apologise to jtdirl. That came from a third party whose advice I sought. I considered his advice carefully, and decided to take it, despite a considerable cost to my pride. --Skyring, as GatherTogether 19:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

There are many other people who should also be apologised to for what they were put through. Your comments about Nixie were uncalled for, as were comments accusing Nickptar of being part of a "crusade of hatred" against you. Other users too suffered personal abuse and villification. Users left Wikipedia because of their experiences. I am perfectly willing to accept your apology. Please respect the decision of the arbcom. They alone can decide your status on here. They can ban and unban. Please respect their decision on behalf of the community. And when you are back, whether in the short term or after the year ban (whichever their decision is), respect other users and don't engage in the sort of conduct that led to your ban. You clearly have a lot of ability. Show that ability, and not scorn, to the Wikipedia community. To show good faith, please don't edit any more articles until either the ban ends or it is ended. That, more than words, would show that you want to work with, and not against, the Wikipedia community. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 20:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. On that note, may I ask you to unprotect my talk page, please? --Skyring, under the name of GatherTogether 20:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I did that earlier tonight. However remember that what was imposed by the arbcom was a ban, not a block. (Bans are implemented by blocks, but operate under different rules.) A standard block for, for example breaching 3RR, means that a user is blocked from editing articles for the duration of the block. They may however access their talk page and edit it, a decision taken after a debate on the issue some time ago. A ban however is a ban from the website, which means that for the duration of a ban no part of the website, and that includes one's own talk page, can be edited. Edits of a banned user's talk page by the banned user itself amounts to a breach of the ban and so triggers its renewal. It is of course open to the arbcom either to recind the ban, or to rephrase it to allow you to edit the talk page though that is problematical as a talk page is technically the property of the account so if the account is banned from use for a set period technically the talk page is too. But I'm sure it is an option that can be considered by them.

Banned and blocked users are explicitly prohibited from editing pages using secondary accounts because that act is seen as circumventing the ban or block imposed and so implicitly undermining the principles behind bans and blocks. In the case of bans (or what used to be called hard bans) longstanding precedent is that all edits by a secondary accounts are reverted on sight, because irrespective of quality their existence breaches a ban. In one case of a user hard banned, when he created a large number of new articles (all lists) they were all instantly deleted without debate by admins at the time, and his edits weren't simply reverted but in some cases deleted from the records. That was the reason for the reversions of your edits. It wasn't because they were by you, but that they were by a banned user who by definition was breaching the ban imposed by the arbcom by every edit. The same has been done to other secondary accounts of blocked or banned users. Such actions do not indicate that the edit is factually bad, but that the edit itself is invalid because it breaches the terms of the block or ban. If reverts aren't made it sends the message that a blocked user isn't really blocked and a ban by Jimbo or the arbcom isn't really a ban.

BTW the use of a secondary account is perfectly OK under Wikipedia rules under two conditions:

1. they are not being used to circumvent a block or ban (ie, the user with the secondary account is not banned or blocked)
2. they are not used to distort (ie, not used by a user to have multiple votes, etc).

By the way, you seem convinced that I was using a secondary user account.I never have done so deliberately. I only ever used another name once and that was by accident; my flatmate at the time also used my computer to edit Wikipedia. He had logged me off and logged himself in once, then left the computer. I came back, did edits as what I thought was myself and then discovered I was in as him. That was two years ago.

To edit on Wikipedia you'll need to get the clearance of the arbcom. Only they or Jimbo can vary or recind the existing one year ban. The chances of doing so would be increased if until that happens to obey the ban they imposed. They were extremely annoyed at the breaches of the ban and said so quite plainly in various places. You need to reassure them that you are genuine in your desire to come back and work as part of the community rather than war with it. If they are satisfied with your bona fides I certainly won't stand in the way. But I won't pretend to be happy at the treatment you gave me, the comments you made about me, or your treatment of other honorable users like Nixie.

Thom, aka FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Re:User:JJ.Johnson

Hey, just wanted an opinion on this JJ.Johnson (talk · contribs). He immediately railed against Bushytails for what was a good judgement call regarding a suspiciously new user account after the block of Biggie.P (talk · contribs) regarding a page the two have been active in. There were then a few irregularities on his user page including...

• Threats against various people and groups, including a "hitlist"

and

• Several Barnstars awarded to himself by himself apparently(5 out of the 6 barnstar awarders have no edits, the 6th is on his "hit list")

Can someone please check this out?I think he's violated WP:CIVIL and WP:SOCK, but since it's a tense situation, i'm willing to wait a bit. Karmafist 17:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Considering this edit, I'd think he's violated a lot more than just WP:CIVIL... Kirill Lokshin 17:19, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Very troubling indeed, if taken at face value. Comments on his user page certainly violate the essence of Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and also violate the spirit of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. The "in my crosshairs" comment appears a direct violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. That said, the editor may just be accustomed to using violent language. I'll attempt to counsel him. --Durin 18:55, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd be willing to wager IHOP.yummy (talk · contribs) is the same user as well. Bushytails 20:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, this is odd. His user page says (well, said) I gave him a barnstar, which I didn't. I'm not sure what to make of this situation. We'll see.--Sean Black | Talk 20:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Also threatened to ban users for editing a page [17] chowells 22:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[18] He says he's sticking to one username now. I gave him a message, should be sorted out, hopefully.--Sean Black | Talk 05:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Old Dominion University

The article at Old Dominion University has been undergoing heavy vandalism lately and I would like to request it be protected for a bit to help the situation. I have had to revert identical vandalism coming from multiple IP addresses and sometimes registered users many times each day for the past week and a half at a minimum. I apologize if this is the wrong place for such a request, or if my request is some way out of line. I'm still a Wikipedia neophyte and just learning the ropes. Any help in this matter would be appreciated. TheChief (PowWow) 04:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I've added the article to the watchlist of the Counter-Vandalism Unit. Cheers! Ëvilphoenix ^Burn! 01:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Repeated re-creations of deleted template

Fairly trivial, but could people please keep an eye on Template:Support? It's already been deleted five times by four different admins following a TfD vote in June that reached a 44-9 majority in favour of deletion [19], but User:Halibutt doesn't seem to want to accept the outcome. He migrated the template to the Commons a few weeks ago in an apparent attempt to get around the deletion vote, and is now migrating it back to en: and possibly other language wikis as well.

I've run into this issue a few times over the last few days in working on the deletion queue. If a user keeps recreating a deleted article or template, what is the best response? -- ChrisO 07:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

If something is deleted, and then reappears in exactly the same form, I think it should be a candidate for speedy deletion. However, if someone recreates something in a different format, perhaps we should run it through the vot again. --Gareth Hughes 08:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The criteria for speedy deletion do not specify how long does it take after the voting before the issue can be discussed again. I decided that, since more than 4 months have passed and most of the arguments against the template were proved absurd since then, recreation of the template is no harm to wikipedia. Especially that several wikipedians find the template useful and nice, and I don't see a reason why not to let them use it. Also, at the talk page of the template I explained why it is not eligible for speedy deletion. Halibutt 10:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, Chris' allegations that I migrated the template to the commons in order to circumvent the voting are both wrong and offensive since they assume my bad will. I believe an apology would be in place. In reality the template was created in commons in May by User:OldakQuill and, as can be seen in history section, I had no influence over it whatsoever. Moreover, the usage of this template in voting on commons' FPC is obligatory. Halibutt 10:19, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

If I'm wrong about why the template was migrated, then of course I apologise and I retract the allegation. But it should certainly stay deleted! -- ChrisO 00:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Policy is quite clear on this. If something is substantially identically recreated, under any title, it is a speedy. It remains a speedy unless a)it is not, in fact substantially identical (note the word substantially, not verbatim) or b)Deletion review has reversed the deletion. There's no statute of limitations, at least not by any precedent I can locate. DRV will generally allow a re-run of the AfD on an article is much time has passed and something has happened in the intervening period to make a difference to the deletion. In the case of this template, I don't see how any length of time will make a difference. So, if you want it to survive, try to get approval for a request at WP:DRV. -Splash^talk 10:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

A significan time has passed and I don't see how the arguments you use cannot be used to prove my point as well. Anyway, the criteria for speedy deletion do not mention such situation, in which case the vote should be repeated if someone really want it to be deleted or believes that wikipedia can only benefit from not allowing its users to use this template. Take note of what I wrote on the talk page. Halibutt 12:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

There was a clear consensus to delete a template identical to the one you have repeatedly re-created under the same name only 4 months ago. What links here only lists a handful of pages that refer to it, mostly discussions on whether it should exist or not. If you think the consensus has changed, you should bring it up at WP:VFU. Otherwise, it is a speedy delete, IMHO. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The CSD most certainly do mention such a situation: WP:CSD#G4 (note that the G's apply to templates as stated in the Templates section) reads, and I quote:

4. A substantially identical copy, by any title, of a page that was deleted according to the deletion policy...

And anyway, rather than trying legalese means of not having it re-deleted, you would have a much higher chance of success (though still close to zero) if you followed the usual process of a listing at WP:DRV. We (not DRV, Wikipedia) do not undelete things just because there hasn't been a re-run of a debate. We undelete them to allow to be re-debated. Until you try WP:DRV and unless and until it approves the undeletion, the template and all its reincarnations are speedies, I'm afraid. -Splash^talk 12:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

And you have recreated it three times in the last 24 hours:

• 13:24, 27 October 2005 . . Halibutt (reinserted the template after someone deleted it against the [[WP:CFSD)
• 11:07, 27 October 2005 . . Halibutt (migrated from commons)
• 01:59, 27 October 2005 . . Halibutt (reinserted the template after User:ChrisO vandalized it.)

which looks to me like a breach of WP:3RR. User:Ulayiti has quite correctly added {{deletedpage}} and protected it. As I said above, go to WP:VFU (or whatever it calls itself these days) if you want it back. ALoan (Talk) 12:42, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

• Wasn't it proven it was just as much a server hog as templated signatures? - Mgm|^(talk) 18:27, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

email spamming

User:Muwaffaq is spamming users via the email function, re WP:RFA#Anonymous_editor, complaining his comments were removed there, and concluding

This pair [AE and Slimvirgin] is known for misusing wikipedia policies and admin powers in the past, for example, with reference to the Islamophobia article. Kindly look into the past credentials of User:Anonymous editor, and cast your vote.

this is not what I set the email thing up for. Also, with 30 oppose votes, there is no way AE's RfA is going to succeed now, so why bother? But this guy Muwaffaq appears to be such an obvious troll, and an embarassement to all editors critically editing Islam articles in good faith, that I must say I am surprised he is still with us (Image:Antifundamentalism.gif should be deleted as trolling. A struck-out Turkish flag is for 'Antifundamentalism'? wth?). Baad 09:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

After a pile of requests I just went through the oppose votes on Anonymous editor's RFA. Muwaffaq = Deeptrivia, and I've blocked the former indefinitely as a sock used abusively and the latter for a week for using a sock on an admin poll.

There were not in fact any others I nailed. There's a few I'm wondering about but I'd need to know more about how often the networks in question change dynamic IPs. I probably won't chase it for the moment because none have used the socks for duplicate votes on the RFA that I could see.

I haven't looked through the 'support' votes and probably won't without a request from someone who isn't an abusive sockpuppet. - David Gerard 15:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I've been LJ commented with the message :\ — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Yuber sockpuppets

Amren and Gerhist. The latter is a sleeper account, the former is the user I was referring to above — the "good" account. Going through records concerning Heraclius as possible match now. - David Gerard 16:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Help! We've been hax0red!

I tried to access wikipedia servers only to find this message waiting for me. The page you are looking for is currently unavailable. The Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties .it looks like some one has hax0red our server space, can somebody look into this--Lapsed canadian 21:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Or we could have been experiencing technical difficulties! Did you consider that possibility? Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 21:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

We're having technical difficulties every day now... sadly, it's nothing new. Titoxd^(?!?) 21:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you should get bigger servers--Lapsed canadian 21:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Yep. feel free to click on the donations link on the navigation pane. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 21:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you feel free to click on the donations link--Lapsed Canadian 21:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you I will. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 22:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's conclusive then - Wikipedia has been pwned! I for one welcome our new hax0r overlords - (it'll make a change from the God-King, anyway... -- ChrisO 21:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I thought the NPOV-compliant title was Deity-Monarch... Thryduulf 22:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Lol. encephalon 21:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

If we were hax0red, you wouldn't be typing that message. Go home. Redwolf24 (talk) 23:21, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Insane volume of page moves

THB (talk · contribs) seems to be moving an aweful lot of articles without any explanation or anything, even seems to be an almost brand new user so it seems a little odd--205.188.116.5 23:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

THB (talk • contribs • page moves • block • block log)

He appears to be changing capitalization and standardizing titles. Is there any specific pagemove you object to? -- Curps 23:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Nothing in particular, it just seems odd when someone makes hundreds of edits, all of them pagemoves--205.188.116.5 00:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

They look excellent to me. THB is being a good janitor and shouldn't end up here. All the titles I have seen needed changing. Well done THB, SqueakBox 00:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Somebody dumped a bunch of junky articles (that do have potential) into the nursing category. I created a subcategory "Nursing care plans" to clean up the "Nursing" category and am correcting the titles, adding a see also and changing the category, sorry, I thought it was obvious that the titles did not meet Wikipedia standards. The first guy who left me a message has a generic AOL user ID so I couldn't respond. Thanks! THB 00:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

PS it's only about 45-50 not "hundreds"!00:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

It's curious that they were submitted by different users from different IPs (69.71.70.211 (talk · contribs) and 70.48.100.251 (talk · contribs) at least), but all clearly working together. I can't immediately find a source for them, but it's not unreasonable for us to query the copyright status of so many articles. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

According to Nursing care plan for skin infections, the text comes from "the International Biopharmaceutical Association copyright free materials". -- ChrisO 00:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Almost all of them refer to that. Interesting. They're not at all commercial except for the link and it's not a very commercial organization to begin with.00:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

BigDaddy, again, damnit

68.122.180.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), just follow the trail of random pages with the word Cindy in them, is there anything more permanent that can be done to about this troll--152.163.100.5 00:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

• Btw, since I obviously can't block anyone, someone might want to formalize that block I gave him, before I realizes he can still edit--152.163.100.5 00:56, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Done. -Greg Asche (talk) 01:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

• • Blocked for a week. This user has said stuff along the lines of a master plan to take away wikipedia funding, which may just be ban worthy. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
    • ^^Typed before GregAsche came in, but an edit conflict and a food run slowed me down ;-) Redwolf24 (talk) 01:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)^^^

Ah, well your block was first (didn't notice it when I went to block), and mine was shorter (only 24h) so you might want to re-block if you want your week one to stick. -Greg Asche (talk) 01:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable saying that the "master plan to take away wikipedia's funding" is ban worthy, since such an assertion is patently ludicrous. But certainly the user's other behavior more than makes it. Jdavidb [[talk • contribs]] 16:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

And using a sockpuppet or IP address to evade a ban issued by an admin is blockworthy too, right? Jdavidb [[talk • contribs]] 16:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Vandal bots

I blocked 152.163.100.0/24 for 24 hrs due to vandal bot. He's running on other ranges as well though. Feel free to do whatever you want. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-28 03:42

That's an AOL-range. I'm sure you'll get complaints about this in your inbox...

And I do think you are being overly agressive in your blocking. You block people with very few edits and without any warning at all. Shanes 04:04, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

That tends to be how I work. Read Wikipedia:Blocking policy. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-10-28 04:39

Vandalbots from AOL ranges are a "DANGER DANGER" thing and warrant the resulting collateral damage. A TOS violation complaint should also be made to AOL. Let the devs know too, on #wikimedia-tech or Wikitech-L — AOL-sourced vandalbots are a small degree of Doomsday scenario, owing to their stupidly broad proxy network - David Gerard 09:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

FARC incident

Hi all - not quite sure what to do with this one (it's not an area I've ever dealt with) but hopefully someone here will know. User:Hoary left a note on my user talk page mentioning problems on the FARC of Sicilian Baroque. Could someone have a look at it and see what needs doing? Thanks. Grutness...wha? 06:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Erin Zu controversy

There seems to be an active conflict over a group of inter-related articles: Erin Zhu, Min Zhu, Larvatus, Blixa Bargeld and WebEx that is a spill-over from other Internet sites and from real life. User:Maschina, who could be Erin Zhu herself, is trying to systematically remove information from Wikipedia but the other side, User:Larvatus, seems to have an agenda to push also. I reverted Maschina's edits because she removed other people's signed comments, category tags etc. perfectly normal material. Could someone please review this matter, I have to log out soon. jni 08:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

What a mess. I've slaped totaly totallydisputed on everything in sight. I suspect this may take some digging to get to the bottem of.Geni 10:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

User:AndriyK

His edits consist of nothing but endless spelling reverts, often anachronistic and grammatically incorrect. Many valuable editors have to stop working on new articles, for it takes time to follow his contributions and to clean up the mess he keeps introducing. Those who oppose him he calls "mafia" and "nazis", both on talk pages and external websites. Today he repeatedly vandalized St Volodymyr's Cathedral by deleting valuable and neutral-worded stuff. Please advise how to keep him at bay. --Ghirlandajo 15:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

In fact, my corrections conforme with the spelling used in Encyclopaedia Britannica. See, for instance, Chernihiv. My corrections also conforms the Wikipedia guidelaines for the geografic names that do not have common English spelling. They should be transliterated from the local language.

This was user Ghirlandajo who blamed me for nationalism just because I corrected spelling.

The stuff, I deleted from St Volodymyr's Cathedral article does not conform the Wikipedia Verifiability policy: none of the cited sources containe the deleted information. Inserting such kind of information is a typical example of using WP as a propaganda machine. I explained the deletion on the corresponding talk page.--AndriyK 18:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the problem is deeper. User:AndriyK came to Wikipedia recently and immediately started the crusade to rename things from names they are known in English to the modern Ukrainian names. While a couple of renames he made were correct, the rest weren't and were reverted by consensus. He persistently reintroduces them antagonizing everyone at Wikipedia. He was spared by me from 3RR ban (now I regret that). Most disgustingly, he continued his crusade outside wikipedia at internet forums where he started an unspeakable campaign of slander and smear against established users and seaking for more hands to help him in reverts wars. The latter resulted, so far, in two sockpuppet accounts already (user:Geminifromukraine and user:MaryMaidan ). For more, check his and my talk pages as well as his contributions. --Irpen 17:45, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

In fact, I do not change the name that are known in English. (There was only one such my mistake concerning Chernyakhov culture, but after normal discussion with another user I agreed with him when he provided creadible references. There was no conflict related to this my mistake.) Other my corrections either conform with creadible sources (like Encyclopaedia Britannica) or are not famouse enough to have common English names. All my corrections conform the WP guidelines concerning geographic names.

I have no connection to any sockpuppet accounts. User Irpen lies.

I indeed used forum to urge people to joint Wikipedia team to improve Ukraine-related content of the resource and to make the information more neutral and balanced.

There is a groop of users that tries to use Wikipedia as propaganda machine by inserting information to articles that is not confirmed by any sources and serves etirely for propaganda purposes. I indeed informed the forum readers about such facts and provided detailed examples of unverified information and propaganda. I believe, I have a right to fight agains abuse of Wikipedia in such a way.

There was no slander frome my side. All what I wrote at the forum can be confirmed by analysis of article histories.

In contrast, user Irpen tried several times to misinform other users and admins. I can provide examples.

I contributed to Wikipedia by writing a new article about Volhynians, by expandig essentially the section Origin in the article Ukrainian language, and section De-Russification in the article Ukrainization. I also corrected a lot of factural mistakes that were continuosly reinserted by Irpen.

The reason why users Ghirlandajo and Irpen started this campaign against me is that I became an obstacle for their attempts to use WP as a propaganda maichine. --AndriyK 19:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I let others judge by taking time to review edit histories. The question is whether time-consuming RfC and/or arbitration are the only venues to pin the rogue user... Thanks! --Irpen 19:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

User:AndriyK moved my articles on Mikhail of Chernigov and Oleg of Chernigov to Mikhail of Chernihiv and Oleg of Chernihiv, respectively. See Talk:Mikhail of Chernihiv, Talk:Oleg of Chernihiv, Talk:Igor Svyatoslavych for details. --Ghirlandajo 10:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

In fact, both moves were done legally, using the "move" button. Than User:Ghirlandajo tried to move one of the articles by cut&paste. (See below).--AndriyK 10:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Ghirlandajo vandalize the articles by inserting there inaccurate, unvarifiable or simply wrong information. See, for instance, Novgorod (disambiguation). User:Ghirlandajo intentionally distorted the information there (see [20]). In fact, Novhorod-Siverskyi is not a "border town". It is "45 km south from the Russian border". In my opinion, this kind of vandalism is more dangerous than the simple distruction of text. Such subtle mistakes are difficult to find and fix.--AndriyK 09:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

You were blocked yesterday for persistant reverting. Now back, turning all the Ukrainian-related articles into a mess. Don;t you find it strange that *all* of your edits have been reverted by about a dozen editors now, some of them neither Russian nor Ukrainian? --Ghirlandajo 11:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Ghirlandajo moved the article Mikhail of Chernihiv to Mikhail of Chernigov by "cut&paste". This is already fixed. But Admin's reaction will be needed if he continues. He vandalize the articles by inserting there inaccurate, unvarifiable or simply wrong information. See, for instance, Novgorod (disambiguation). User:Ghirlandajo intentionally distorted the information there (see [21]). In fact, Novhorod-Siverskyi is not a "border town". It is "45 km south from the Russian border". In my opinion, this kind of vandalism is more dangerous than the simple distruction of text. Such subtle mistakes are difficult to find and fix.--AndriyK 09:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Huh, you forget to mention that it was me who started and wrote Novhorod-Siverskyi, just like St Volodymyr's Cathedral, Mikhail of Chernigov, Oleg of Chernigov and numerous other articles. And it was me who said in the article that it was "45 km south from the Russian border". Your edits, on the other hand, are limited to wrecking the pages I and other users created. --Ghirlandajo 11:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

While the "Russian Architecture" thingie is a blatant POV, the problem of Chernihiv/Chernigov is rather a case of meritorical dispute and, IMHO, should be taken to normal dispute resolution procedure if this can't be solved on a talk page. Halibutt 10:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

We tried to discuss it on Portal talk:Ukraine/New article announcements, but he takes no heed and vandalized 60 pages after the discussion started. --Ghirlandajo 11:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

What, if anything, is the administrative action being asked for here? Most of this looks like normal content dispute. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

He was 48-h blocked for massive disruption (check log). The block already expired by now. As for normality, check his Friday contributions. Hopefully, the issue is over and no further action would be necessary as now the user is editing articles as a normal person. --Irpen 04:54, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Large-scale edit war

The user:AndriyK made a mess in no time he spent on Wikipedia: multiple violations of 3RR (1, 2), frivolous renamings of the articles (see log) and inside the articles (his contibutions), icluding multiple moves by cut and paste, unspeakable attacks on other users are only part of his actions. See his talk, his contibutions, his log, Irpen's talk, etc.

Today, user:AndriyK continued his edit war which includes hundreds of articles now. In his first hour of editing today, he vandalized more than 60 pages. Like yesterday, his edits will be gradually reverted by other users, but it takes infinite time and ruins history records for pages in question. He refuses to discuss the problem at Portal talk:Ukraine/New article announcements.

For instance, it took me infinite pains to write Russian architecture. Without any explanation, the vandal repeatedly moved it today to Architecture of Rus, although the page treats Imperial Russia and Muscovy. Now, there are two identical articles. I need your advise how to stop this nightmare. --Ghirlandajo 10:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

48 hours break to consider discussion with others and to read the manual of style - David Gerard 12:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Discussion with others? Wasn't it tried??? See his talk, his contibutions, his log, Irpen's talk, etc. He is now carefully one step under 3RR at several articles. And his moving articles is a total disaster and a huge waste of time, because takes time, effort, several editors to undo. Check again his talk! --Irpen 14:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Hope springs eternal in my heart that he will learn to work with others, despite the "I was robbed" email I just got from him - David Gerard 15:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

NAKEDNED and NakedNed2

NAKEDNED (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and NakedNed2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): did anyone else notice a pattern here? They've both been temporarily blocked; should these users be blocked permanently (blatant vandal accounts and sockpuppets of each other), or do we give them another chance? Newbie admin speaking. --RobertG ♬ talk 16:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

• It seems that admins have different opinions on the matter. Some would block an account indefinitely right away if the only edits are vandalism. Others admins would give the account a second chance (especially if they suspect that the user is either a child who does not know any better or someone who might have a mental/physical disability)... but only a second chance. I personally go on a case by case basis. In this particular case, because this person created a sock puppet and blatantly vandalised user pages with attack messages, I would lean towards infinite blocks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 18:38, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Judge the person:

1. Has this editor done absolutely nothing that isn't clear, solid, absolute vandalism?
2. Or is this editor an absolutely solid waterproof sock of such a vandal?

If there's any doubt, don't ever block indefinitely.

If it's an IP (and I erred considerably on this myself in the early days) never block indefinitely without solid evidence. A few minutes is enough to stop most vandals, and the few really determined vandals will use proxies anyway. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 00:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

War at Prussian Blue

Well, Prussian Blue (American duo) has been unlocked, and user:ThompsJohn and user:hipocrite have already engaged each other in mortal combat. There are 3RRs filed or to be filed shortly, and I can't imagine things cooling down on their own. Just thinking someone might wanna head on over there now... and beat the rush.

Fox1 (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

No need yet.Geni 18:56, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I am happy to work with any reasonable editor to reach any reasonable compromise on the article in question. Please review the edit histories of the parties in question. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:54, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, except you are the revert-warring (against 3 editors) person here (Hipocrite's initial edit). ThompsJohn 21:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no controversy over Lynx being fucking hot though :-)!!!!Purpleavenger 06:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

corrupted article

guy fawkes > gunpowder plot seems to have been hacked. rshuey@rgv.rr.com

• It usually isn't too hard to hack a Wiki. m4d hax0r sk1llz!--Scimitar ^parley 20:33, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

rIPping (and ToSsing) vandals

Take a look at the sad history of Sealand (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (and Empire of Atlantium (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)). They're protected. A vandalbot lies in wait for them to be unprotected, and then as soon as that happens (within a very short time) it reverts to an earlier version, using a throwaway username. We've been through this cycle quite a few times already.

As a taunting gesture, the throwaway usernames are usually anagrams of any user who reverts it. Similar tactics have been used at a few other articles.

There is little doubt that this is a bot (its reaction times are too quick).

Unless we are willing to settle for these articles to be permanently protected (and any other articles the vandalbot takes a fancy to), we should take a more proactive approach.

Accordingly, I am hereby asking David Gerard to publicly reveal the IP addresses used by the vandalbot sockpuppets for all edits to Sealand within the past week or so.

According to Wikimedia Foundation privacy policy, data in the server logs can be released under certain circumstances, including (item 5):

Where the user has been vandalising articles or persistently behaving in a disruptive way, data may be released to assist in the targetting of IP blocks, or to assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service Providers

So this would be entirely in accordance with the existing privacy policy.

This option (publicly revealing IP or rIPping a vandal) should not be used lightly, but should be available as an option in cases of the most disruptive vandalism that threatens the foundation of how Wikipedia works (and causing articles to be permanently protected certainly qualifies). This would serve as an alternative (or perhaps a supplement) to the earlier controversial proposal to give more users checkUser privilege, but with the crucial difference that the privacy of ordinary users (and even garden-variety vandals) would be as secure as before. Also see some earlier discussion).

As provided for in the Wikimedia Foundation privacy policy, the IP information could serve as the basis for "ToSsing" the vandal (report a Terms of Service violation to the vandal's ISP). As things currently stand, this can only be done by David Gerard or developers, and they are often overworked and have little time to do the grunt work of drawing up an evidence page with links and timestamps and IP addresses and liaising with ISP's abuse contacts. If the IPs are public, however, this grunt work can be delegated to a "ToS committee" consisting of ordinary users (without checkuser privilege).

I believe that rIPping and ToSsing vandals can be a useful tool in deterring some persistent vandals. Note we would not be asking the ISPs to reveal the identity of the vandal — the worst consequence would be being dropped as a customer by the ISP, and that would be at the ISP's discretion. The ISP could also simply choose to issue a notification or warning to their customer. Note that many vandals use also their ISP accounts for everyday non-vandal Internet use, and the threat of potentially losing a longstanding e-mail address or having to explain loss of Internet connection to family members can be an effective deterrent.

Note, the above applies to disruptive vandals who use sockpuppets. However, in the case of vandals who use an anonymous IP range, the "rIP" part isn't necessary, the IP information is already publicly available and we can proceed directly to the "ToSs". I have a test case in mind, a "censorship" vandal who has been deleting sections from model-related articles on an almost daily basis since May and has ignored (and deleted) HMTL comments inserted into the articles warning him to stop and threatening to report him to his ISP. Since he has called the bluff, it seems necessary to followup.

-- Curps 20:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly endorse the above suggestion, but am not sure what an "anonymous IP range" is. ~~ N (t/c) 20:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC) Sorry for the confusion, I edited the paragraph to clarify. -- Curps 21:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

A range of anonymous IP addresses, like for instance 69.235.128.0 to 69.235.255.255. In the case of disruptive logged-in sockpuppets, we'd need the IPs to be revealed (rIP) in order to do effective ToS followup; however, in the case of disruptive vandals who use anonymous IP, we already have the publicly available IP information. So even while the "rIP" proposal is being debated we can go ahead and do the "ToS" part for anonymous IP vandals. -- Curps 20:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

You're right, actually IMO - if it's an actual bot, it's so thoroughly sodomising the site policies it has no reasonable expectation of privacy. I'll see what I can find - David Gerard 20:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Curps, I've checked the addresses: 145.253.87.106 and 203.130.225.34. And they're going to do you no good at all, because they're open proxies (which I've just blocked as such), because this is Wik again, obsessing over country boxes. Bah! You'll see 'em in the block list ;-) - David Gerard 22:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, the overall idea is "vandal accountability", and sometimes that should mean stepping outside the sphere of Mediawiki software functionality and into the real-world sphere. Even if we can't cover all the bases yet, we should at least take some readily attainable steps.

By the way, if it's Wik, he's escalating. Supposedly, he limited his earlier vandalism to admin-related pages in the Wikipedia space, which some claimed was a (warped?) way of showing his concern for Wikipedia and trying to get it to change its policies according to his prescriptions. But now he's using vandalbots for petty editwarring and reverting, not any kind of grand principles.

Sometimes I'm a bit concerned that the highest levels at Wikipedia are not a little more involved in day-to-day operational issues and preserving the basis of how Wikipedia operates and the integrity of its contents. It doesn't do much good to be guardians of abstract philosophical principles when those principles can be circumvented without consequences.

Can we contract a third-party open-proxy blocking service? Surely Wikipedia isn't the first or only website to cope with this issue. Nearly all online forums that allow users to post comments have to deal with the growing issue of comment spam, and open proxies for comment spam are part of the same issue as open relays for e-mail spam. -- Curps 01:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, we had Fvw's POPBot for a while, which worked really well. Unfortunately, he gave up and ordered his bot to unblock everyone it had blocked (I already reblocked three of these IPs after they vandalized). He indicated on his talk page that he would be willing to give the lists if someone else wants to take over (so, if you got his bot and started it again, it could be very useful). --cesarb 02:00, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

MKD location

Could someone please do something about the article Macedonian denar. Someone keeps redirecting it to silly locations. Macedonian denar is the name of this currency. What more does he want. Could someone please lock the page. REX 12:15, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect. As can plainly be ascertained by anybody, Macedonian can refer to a number of different countries/regions/peoples, so "Macedonian denar" is inappropriate and misleading. The name of the article should be the name of the specific country in question, followed by the name of the currency, so as to avoid any confusion. Similarly, we have United States dollar rather than American dollar. I don't see why this case should be any different.--Theathenae 12:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Lie! Search Google for Macedonian denar and then for FYROM denar. You'll see the difference. WP:NOR remember, you cannot rename a currency simply because you don't like it. REX 12:21, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Not really, we have Swiss Franc rather than Swiss Confederation Franc, we used to have Greek drachma rather than Hellenic Republic dreachma. Anyway, the CIA World Factbook calls it Macedonian denar as does the World Bank. Macedonian denar is this currency's name. This article should be at Macedonian denar. It is its real name. REX 12:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The fact remains that Wikipedia does not call this country (simply) Macedonia, because that is the name of a region spanning several countries - of which the denar is the currency of only one. The reason that we have United States dollar rather than American dollar is that there are other countries that can and do call themselves American. The same disambiguation should apply here.--Theathenae 12:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The World Bank would appear to disagree with you Theathenae. Macedonian denar is this currency's name. Why don't we move Euro to EU Euro? There are other countries in Europe without the Euro. I advise you to read Wikipedia:Naming conflict, where you will see that Macedonian denar is the appropriate name. REX 13:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

All reading this will be unsurprised I gave REX and Theathenae 24-hour blocks for 3RR violation for their move-wars on this page. If 3RR doesn't mention page moves, it probably should. I also protected the article from moves, pending something resembling consensus over where to put it - David Gerard 16:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

• FYROM denar is now on RM. And looking at the move log, the article was originally Macedonian denar but Theathenae was the first one who arbitrarily decided to rename it. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I can't tell you how little I care what it's called ;-) - David Gerard 19:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

When one of the options is obviously right, and the other wrong, the accuracy of the encyclopedia should come into the game, just a little bit, right? ;) Pcb21| Pete 10:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes. But not for administrative purposes! - David Gerard 11:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Well I'd like it to not be arbitrarily moved around, so I nominated it on WP:RM. Looks like a good call. It got massive support and was moved back to it original location. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 00:41, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It is completely ridiculous to accept any other name than the official for the Macedonian denar. Wikipedia should not allow the Greek POV pushers to take another hostage and push their assimilative POV. Macedonian^(talk) 01:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Zen-master (talk · contribs) banned from conspiracy theory

Zen-master is currently on probation after an arbcom ruling. After breaking the 3RR on conspiracy theory, and being uncivil, I have banned him from the article for a month following the proscribed guidelines. Since there is no block involved, and it's only one article, I guess we're going to need the admins to be aware and enforce the ban with a block afterwards if he violates it. Note that he may still use the talk page. If any admin feels this was improper, or would like to change the length of time, I would be happy to discuss it. I've never done this before (and in fact, I can't find evidence that the relatively new probation guidelines have ever gone into effect). Dmcdevit·t 18:10, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I mentioned this to Kelly Martin on #wikipedia just now and she said "that probation measure was a good call", so you appear to be on the right track ;-) - David Gerard 19:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Is Zen Master on probation for all articles, or just those that relate to "race and intelligence"? It isn't clear from the arbitration ruling. But since two arbitrators seem to agree with the enforcement, I guess ZM's current ban is OK. Rhobite 00:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Zen-master placed on probation

1) Zen-master (talk · contribs) is placed on probation for one year, and during that time may be banned from any article which relates to race and intelligence if in the opinion of any administrator his editing is disruptive. This may include the talk page of race and intelligence, see Wikipedia:Probation.

Passed 4 to 1 at 16:06, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

As Conspiracy theory (unless Zen-master has somehow converted it into one) has nothing to do with race and intelligence, the ban is not based on the authority of the decision. Perhaps it was the right thing to do, but it is not authorized. I wrote Wikipedia:Probation and after some refinement and discussion among the arbitrators we began using it. (to respond to (and in fact, I can't find evidence that the relatively new probation guidelines have ever gone into effect).) Fred Bauder 00:49, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hm :) Guess this makes me a rouge admin. In all honesty, I looked at the admin enforcement requests page for Zen-master and and found: "Should any sysop feel that it is necessary that Zen-master be banned from an article where they are engaged in edit warring," and so assumed it was for any article. I'm quite surprised that Zen-master didn't contest it or point me to that decision. If anyone feels it was improper, I guess we should lift the ban, whatever, I'd like some more admin input now. But I do think going back to apply a 3RR block would be improper now, as Zen-master has stopped edit warring, thinking he was banned from the article. (And my "ever gone into effect" was meant to mean I can't see that a banning from an article has ever been done. Has it?) Dmcdevit·t 01:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, ZM has participated in edit warring in Conspiracy theory-related articles. (See also AIDS conspiracy theories (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Wikipedia:Conspiracy theory (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Conspiracy theory|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)). I also note that he seems to mostly engage in talk-page arguments and rarely makes any substantive edits to articles. -Willmcw 01:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

That may be, but we shouldn't arbitrarily (if accidentally, in this case) extend ArbCom rulings. The phrasing of the ruling is very clear. A new Arbitration case can always be brought. -Splash^talk 01:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it may look like edit warring I admit, but when I try to make changes/improvements I am often thwarted. My talk page discussion points are misdirected away from or ignored. No one has justified the recent (1-2 weeks ago) massive changes to Conspiracy theory and no one has responded to my challenge to explain what I interpret to be a highly biasing and unscientific method of presentation of race and intelligence. Do I interpret correctly that I am in limbo as to whether I can edit Conspiracy theory currently or is the block lifted? zen master T 01:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess right now, there are no editing restrictions on you. Sorry for the confusion. You may edit the article. If however, you chose to go back and revert again (since I think your last revert was reverted since then) I will be convince that a 3RR block is necessary. Right now, I'm going to assume good faith and wait and see. Dmcdevit·t 03:20, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

What to do with a possible sockpuppet?

PlayersPlace (talk · contribs) looks a bit too much like a sockpuppet of Hogeye (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): first edit is just after Hogeye came back from a long pause in edit warringediting, and is a revert to Hogeye's prefered version, complete with edit summaries; all edits are to either Anarchism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) or Talk:Anarchism (edit | [[Talk:Talk:Anarchism|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views); and the edits to the talk page are to show support to Hogeye's side.

Should the account be indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet? If it should, I'd prefer if someone else did the block, because I might be considered a bit biased about this user. --cesarb 21:10, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Never indefinitely block a possible sockpuppet after a few edits, plus sockpuppets are allowed unless they're used to game systems like RfA, AfD, 3RR... Hogeye isn't banned, just blocked. For people who ARE prohibited from sockpuppets, see WP:BU. Redwolf24 (talk) 21:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hogeye isn't blocked, his 1-month block expired a few months ago. If the sockpuppet should not be indefinitely blocked, should both the user and the sockpuppet be blocked for 3RR? Or is the evidence insufficient? --cesarb 21:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Repeated wholesale removal of info from St. Volodymyr's Cathedral

user:Andrew Alexander and user:AndriyK (recently sanctioned) repeatedly remove large chunks from St. Volodymyr's Cathedral. I urge a neutral admin to look at the issue. If the articles needs protection, please make sure the inclusive version is protected because it is not a dispute between two version but between a version and nothing. I leave it up to others, whether the user:Andrew Alexander needs to hear from the third party or be sanctioned. --Irpen 01:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• I am second to request somebody neutral to look onto this issue. User:Andrew Alexander is quite annoying in his quest to censor others by just blanking the section, whithout any alternative suggestions. IMHO the article should be protected for a while. abakharev 01:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
• Although the exact facts were contradictory we have manadged to downscale them to a point where we all agree on. Nevertheless the behaivour of the user is shocking, as he repeatedly removed compleate paragraphs of facts, facts that after much editing became a true representation of Neutral events. I feel this is unacceptable for a respected international encyclopedia. Kuban kazak 11:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

In fact, the above users did not provide any creadible sources confirming what they claim in the article. (They refer to the site, where everybody can publsi anything s/he whant.) Moreover, user:Andrew Alexander provided plenty of references dispriving the claim.

The paragraph is formulated in propaganda style, pushing fundamentalistic Russian-Orthodox POV, instead of NPOV.

There is still going discussion whether this paragraph belongs to the scope of the article. The article is about the Cathedral, not about controvercies and inter-Church relations in Ukraine.--AndriyK 16:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It would be nice if somebody of experienced and respectable users would explain Irpen and Kuban kazak, that it is extremely important to base the Wikipedia articles on creadible sources and to avoid any propaganda issues.--AndriyK 16:18, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

36, 36 times this article was vandalized by the people mentioned, credible sources have been provided, from both parts of the conflict, yet these two users seem to focus all of their energy on barbaric deletions of paragraphs. Moreover, one should also notice some of the expressions that they have allowed themselves to use in the discussion page of the article. I think that it is time that administrators fully intervene and bring this to the attention of the whole board of wikipedia authors. Kuban kazak 21:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

To this I would like to add that user:Andrew Alexander who vandalized the article for dozens of times, every time makes small sneaky changes in the article to avoid 3RR when no content change is done at all. This is a typical example. --Irpen 21:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Buis

On the above forum a thread has been started encouraging forum users to come to Wikipedia and vote to keep this article. I dare say this hasn't been as successful as the poster dared hope, as comments left there include (paraphrasing) "why bother" however I did find the comment "small forum brings down Wikipedia" rather amusing. One that's worth watching, I feel. -- Francs2000 11:22, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Agriculture = User:TheChief

I've blocked TheChief indefinitely as an attack sockpuppet of Agriculture and blocked the latter for 48 hours. Any edits by TheChief are edits by Agriculture - David Gerard 15:22, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• I see no evidence of recent personal attacks made by TheChief (talk · contribs), and to the best of my knowledge it is legitimate to have multiple accounts. I've unblocked Agriculture for this reason. Radiant_>|< 15:54, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I am not TheChief. But actions like this prove Wikipedia is run by the trolls and vandals and their best friends. I am being targeted for my support for an RfAr on Tony Sidaway, and this is the last straw. I'm solving the problem by leaving. Agriculture 16:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Agriculture was blocked for creating a sockpuppet in order to (a) evade a negative reputation earned through repeated uncivil behavior (his contribution history is full of it, including plastering "FUCK YOU" and "SCREW YOU" in 30 point bold across his user page, and that's just for starters) and (b) create a false appearance of community support for sanctions against another editor in an RfC. These are both impermissible uses of multiple accounts. Radiant!, it was inappropriate of you to unblock Agriculture in this case without first consulting with David Gerard. Please refrain from abusing your administrative authority in the future. Kelly Martin (talk) 16:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
      • I disagree with the first point, and so does our sockpuppet policy - if someone has a bad reputation and wishes to start fresh, that would hardly be an inappropriate reason for a new account. The second point is moot since it is not actually possible to get sanctions in a request for comment. Radiant_>|< 16:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
        • Radiant!, the sockpuppet policy in no way supports the use of sockpuppets to escape a negative reputation, although it does not explicitly forbid it. However, it does explicitly forbid using sockpuppets "for purposes of deception, or to create the illusion of broader support for a position." Which is exactly what Agriculture did on Tony's RfC. Kelly Martin (talk) 18:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC) (answered at the bottom - Radiant_>|< 19:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC))
    • Agriculture: are you seriously objecting to Radiant unblocking you? --- Charles Stewart 16:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • The fact that User:TheChief was the same editor was cogent information to reader's of that accounts output, and the accounts relationship was not explained before it was discovered by DG, which is classic sockpuppet behaviour. The intent was clearly to amplify Agriculture's voice more loudly that could be achieved with honestly signed edits. I'd say the ban was richly deserved. --- Charles Stewart 16:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Well, I have not objected to the ban (or technically, permablock) on TheChief. Radiant_>|< 16:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
      • I've no objection to either block (if the allegation is true). Whatever the rules say, sockpuppetry on an RfC is detestible, and in any case since the Agriculture account was still active, this would not be not an example of a 'fresh start'. However, what is the evidence for sockpuppetry? Agriculture denies it, and without evidence we should 'assume good faith'. Was a checkuser perfomed? And if so, why, given that the User:TheChief has neither vandalised not AFAIK been disruptive. I'd hate to think this was a fishing exercise because he was involved in a contravertial RfC? --Doc (?) 18:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• I do see some editing similarities, but given the severity of the sanctions, and the fact that agriculture seems to have left the project, I do think that all relevant evidence of sockpuppetry must be made public by David. Editing similarities CAN happen by coincidence - certainly, many of the pages on Chief's contribs are ones to which I've also made edits. Fawcett5 18:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I am willing to contemplate that possibility that TheChief is a meatpuppet, rather than a sockpuppet, recruited and directed by Agriculture to bolster his case against Tony. However, the use of meatpuppets to accomplish a goal which would prohibited if accomplished by sockpuppets is also prohibited by the sockpuppet policy Radiant! so kindly linked earlier. Kelly Martin (talk) 18:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
• I am aware that WP:SOCK forbids sockpuppets "for purposes of deception, or to create the illusion of broader support for a position." However, the only place on the RFC where this "illusion of broader support" occurs is that they both endorsed the "Outside view by Friday". That is all. Does that warrant those blocks? I think not.

  Plus edits in support of Agriculture in many other places. The intent was not ballot stuffing, but "to create the illusion of broader support for a position", for which disciplinary measures are explicitly prescribed. If the claim is that the blocks are unwarranted because the length of the blocks are too harsh (I do not think so), that is something else. --- Charles Stewart 19:58, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• David Gerard says (on the RFC) that he did an IP check. Doc Glasgow raises a good point though when he asks why, since I have not seen vandalism, personal attacks or disruption from User:TheChief. Radiant_>|< 19:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Why not? Signing an RFC twice is not acceptable. I don't see a fifth-amendment right to be secure in your abusive sockpuppets writen on the wall somewhere. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Because it's circular reasoning. Sockchecks should only be made with valid cause before the check, and that the RFC was signed twice by the same person is only apparent after the check. The reason I'm somewhat skeptical here is that in an unrelated case less than two weeks ago, somebody accused David of sockchecking without proper cause. I'm not saying that there's truth to that accusation because I don't know, but in these two cases I would appreciate it if David would explain his view. Radiant_>|< 22:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Why should sockchecks only be made with valid cause before the check? If the check turns out bad behavior, dosen't that verify the check? Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
        • And if the check doesn't turn up bad behaviour, all David has to do is fail to disclose the fact that he checked, and nobody ever knows- in other words, you're advocating that he should have the ability to check any of our IP addresses for no reason whatsoever.--Scimitar ^parley 23:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
          • You got it. Do you have something to hide? Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
            • There are serious problems with that way of doing things. It can be safely assumed, for instance, that a certain percentage of sockpuppets do get through the checks and manage post to RFC/AfD/RFA-style debates. Now, catching those people would be good; but if we create a relatively small group of users and empower them to perform checks based entirely on their own judgement, then that will have a lopsided effect on debates that those users are involved in. Users are human; when involved in a contentious debate, even the most careful person is naturally going to be faster to spot signs of sockpuppetry from people they disagree with. This becomes even more problematic when combined with the risk of false positives. I've had several nasty run-ins with sockpuppeteers myself, and I certainly think there needs to be policies in place to catch them, but there also needs to be transparency in enforcing those policies. At the very least, there should be a requirement that users be informed when they've been checkuser'd, with the name of whoever checkusered them and the complete justification for the check, just like with blocking. This is only fair, since it gives them a chance to take issue with it if they feel it was inapproprate; possibly there could even be a requirement to inform them beforehand. There should probably also be public checkuser logs of some form, if there aren't already. But most importantly, there needs to be firmer policies indicating when a sockpuppet check is approprate. The only explaination I've heard from David Gerard so far is that an ArbCom member requested it; while that is enough to satisfy the bare minimum of our privacy policy, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of allowing ArbCom to request IP checks outside of their normal duties in resolving cases, at least without providing any warning or explaination. They were appointed and elected to serve as a final court of appeal, not a vigilante. Maybe we do want them to serve as a vigilante (to some extent, admins are already supposed to do that, and it does seem to work out); but there should be more discussion of it first. --Aquillion 00:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
• I'm not yet convinced that David actually has the goods. He admits on his talk page that the IPs DIDN'T match [22], but rather claims that because they are from the same city (!), that one was from work and another from home. Seems like quite a leap to me as the basis for applying an indefinite and 48 hr ban and labelling a long time contributor as employing a sock. Fawcett5 20:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
• I have every confidence that if David has user checkuser, he will have done so for good reason and in good faith. However, this underlines for me the importance of having a clear policy on checkuser, particularly if the number of people with the facility gets increased. --Doc (?) 22:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Albert Einstein

Can some admin find the last unvandalized version and protect it? There have been two blanking vandalisms in the past hour and several other vandalisms in the past two hours, which is about 10-20 times normal rate for this page. While I your attention, I think this article should be protected indefinitely (in a good version) until Wikipedia has more stringent editing policies or a much more efficient vandalism prevention policies in place. CH (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

No way are you going to get indefinate protection. Our vandalism prevention policies appear to have worked just fine. We revert them. I'll add the page to my watchlist, I urge others to do likewise. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 21:16, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it too. Unless something radically changes though there is no way that you'll ever get indefinite protection on an article just because that goes against the nature and the spirit of a wiki. Jtkiefer ^{T | @ | C} ----- 21:18, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

User:Jtdirl persistently adding copyvio images to templates

According to the policies at Wikipedia:Fair use and discussions at various locations, images under "fair use" and other non-free licenses should never be used outside of article-space. This means they can't be used on user pages, talk pages, or templates. Most of these images used on templates are used for decorative purposes only, and so do not qualify for fair use under either Wikipedia policies or US copyright law. I've been going through a list of templates using non-free images at User:Gmaxwell/query fairusemediaintemplates and removing the images.

However, for templates containing images of crowns (Template:Crown Jewels, Template:Crowns, Template:Types of Crowns, Template:UK-royal-stub), User:Jtdirl is persistently reverting my changes, re-inserting non-free images. Could someone take a look at this? --Carnildo 00:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

What has actually been happening is that Carnildo has been unilaterally dumping images without explanation. He has already pissed off Australian wikipedians with similar behaviour there and they are up in arms over it, as he talk page shows. Users have told him

your unilateral action is making a lot of people very angry

Please do NOT remove Australian photos without consulting Australian Wikipedians. We have gone through a long process to get a formula for these photos which clears them for use and which has been approved by Mr Wales. I suggest you visit Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board and raise any concerns you have before taking action which will make a lot of people angry.

If you look at his "contributions" (Special:Contributions/Carnildo) you'll see he's been doing this to a lot of templates lately where it's quite clear (IMO) fair-use allows the images to be used. And yes, it's very unilateral: as far as I can tell he's acting nearly independently, and reverts edits back without any (or very little) discussion or consensus (see: Template:Donkey Kong series).

It might help if Carnildo showed either a modicum of understanding of the law (he clearly is no lawyer) or bothered to communicate with people. I reverted to try to get him to break what seems to be his habit here and actually explain his behaviour. Other users are throughly fed up of his unilateral behavour without explanation. Catholics may well believe in the infallibility of the pope but no-one seems to be convinced of the infallibility of Carnildo (except himself). With such clearly self-proclaimed legal knowledge, it is a wonder Bush didn't appoint Carnildo to the Supreme Court!FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Right, then. Since neither of you have seen fit to discuss this on the talk pages of the templates, commented on each other's talk pages, or brought the matter up on RFC or the Village Pump, how is this an AN/I matter? Did you want us to block both of you for revert warring? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:17, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Edit warring is perfectly valid on Wikipedia once the 3RR is not breached. I didn't bring it here. I have raised it elsewhere as a general principle and did not bring Carnildo's name into it. He raised it here. His behaviour has pissed off a lot of people on this issue. He is also wrong in law. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)