Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Edit warring, plus suspected sockpuppetry on both sides.

86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Wikireader41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Nangparbat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hkelkar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Kashmircloud (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
86.151.123.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

-
86.158.236.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
86.163.154.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
81.158.129.140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
86.162.70.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
The involved parties are 86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs) and Wikireader41 (talk · contribs). They were arguing over the reliability of government pages. I accidentally stepped in the middle by making a revert with huggle, and have ascertained that they both suspect each other of sockpuppetry. There is a lot of discussion relating to the matter at my talk page, and at User_talk:Wikireader41. Thank you Fahadsadah (talk) 17:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I suspect 86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs) is a sock of Nangparbat (talk · contribs). he has generally been very incivil and is pushing pakistani islamist POV on multiple articles even as the # 9 Failed state#2008 of Pakistan is sinking deeper into crisis and needs to be blocked. The Indian govt websites are widely regarded as a credible source of info about India. I dont wear socks ;-)--Wikireader41 (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The above is Wikireader41's accusation of sockpuppetry. 86.156.208.244 appears to be away right now, but he accused Wikireader41 of being a sockpuppet of Hkelkar: [1]. Fahadsadah (talk) 07:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

AS Admins can see his hate and POV pushing for pakistan is clear his edits are similair to Hkelkar and Kashmircloud (who suddenly disappeared) anyways as his comments have shown his pov motives he speaks of matters not relating to this issue e.g failed state i will continue to remove his vandal edits 86.151.123.189 (talk) 13:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

it is clear here that 86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs) and 86.151.123.189 (talk · contribs) are the same person. isnt that what sockpuppetry is all about. if he is innocent why does he not register. it is a well known and concerning fact that Britishers of Pakistani descent have extreme views and are being investigated by CIA. CIA warns Barack Obama that British terrorists are the biggest threat to the US  ????--Wikireader41 (talk) 16:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have added {{Userlinks}} tags for all involved and allegedly involved parties. Fahadsadah (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Without checkuser evidence nothing can be proved. Fahadsadah (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

As admins can clearly see this hater of pakistani people has created a new article against us and i will not rest untill he is removed from the pages of wikipedia forever bring it on HKELKAR or is it kashmircloud ? 86.151.123.189 (talk) 18:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

No one has created an article 'against us'. No article is an attack on you personally. The (well sourced and wikilinked) article is about notable extremist Pakistanis in Britain. It is not accusing all Pakistanis of being extremist, you are the one inferring that. If it were unsourced that would be another thing, but these issues are well documented and reported by primary reliable sources. It is a matter of record already. Personalization of the issue displays a clear POV and incapability of remaining neutral on your part, as such you should clearly not be editing the article at all. If you have sourced information to refute claims in the article then provide them at article talk. Mfield (talk) 20:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Please check his new pathetic article which is another attack on pakistanis 86.151.123.189 (talk) 18:51, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

This is spilling over now...

Earlier today I blocked 86.151.123.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for personal attacks and disruptive editing, and then about 10 mins later the following sock IPs - 86.158.236.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), 86.163.154.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and 81.158.129.140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log).

All the argument this time was over Islamic Extremism among British Pakistanis which was being blanked with no discussion. The last IP was making claims about the article "attacking us" and posting talk page messages[2][3][4][5] on related pages soliciting (Pakistani) editors to delete the article and creators other contributions. I removed the disruptive comments and semi protected the two articles.

This afternoon another editor, UnknownForEver (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) speedied the article as nonsense and gave me a warning for removing talk page messages with a "what right have I" speech. When I removed the inappropriate speedy tag with a note to AfD it properly if sound reasons could be explained, I was given another warning about removing speedy tags (apparently admins don't have the right to decline speedys). I have since explained to the UnknownForEver that as an (uninvolved) admin I am protecting the encyclopedia from disruption and that they should not attempt to have articles deleted by inappropriately tagging them - tagging this as nonsense was clearly POV. I think the moment has passed now but I doubt the matter is closed, there is still fighting going on at the article talk. Would be nice to have another set of eyes on it. Mfield (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

And yet again today: 86.162.70.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), breaking the 48 hour block to vote on the AfD with a long tirade attacking the article creator and posted other commentson talk pages canvassing for Pakistani users to vote for its deletion. Reverted all comments, blocked for 1 week. Left a message explaining that the editor needs to wait out the original 48 hour block and return to editing without the personal attacks or the blocks are going to get longer and longer. Mfield (talk) 15:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC) I have also posted a explanatory message on the AfD to hopefully catch the sock if he tries to repost the attcks before his block ends in 24 hours[6].I am going to be real world busy all week so if some others could watch Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Islamic_Extremism_among_British_Pakistanis and make sure it stays free of personal attacks and soapboxing that would be helpful. If the IP sock continues to post attacks perhaps it should be semi protected since he is on his 5th IP in 24 hours already and they from different ranges. Mfield (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikireader41 has also been blocked previously for pov pushing.No lessons learnt yet, even an admin who has been know to collabrate with him also confirms his pov pushing [7].He was also invloved in here [8].He accuses other of Personal attacks without any evidenceWp:Pa [9].Constanly violating WP:TERRORIST e.g. [10].Using wikipedia as a crystal ball WP:BALL.Treating wikipedia as battleground as it can be seen on contributions to talkpages WP:BATTLE. Violating WP:SOAP on talkpages.Even violating Wp:civil while interacting with other users. yousaf465'

massive disruption

New editor Telepatty900 (talk · contribs) is on a rampage, making a large number of dubious (but not obviously vandal) edits to medical articles at a rapid rate, without edit summaries, and failing to respond to talk page notices. It seems that a block might be the only way to get his attention. Looie496 (talk) 19:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I am considering a short-term block, but I need to examine the diffs. Graham Colm ^Talk 20:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have examined the diffs - I am professionally qualified to assess them - and have blocked 72 hours. --Anthony.bradbury^"talk" 20:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) - Another admin (thanks Anthony) has just come to the same decision that I was about to implement. Graham. Graham Colm ^Talk 20:23, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't call the user's edits a rampage nor massive disruption, and certainly not vandalism. I checked @all of them and all that I checked clearly are good faith edits. Some are improvements; some are not, but I can see the user was trying to improve the article. As for lack of response, is a new user supposed to know that a response is expected? This user made only one edit (19:13) after the level 3 warning by Nubiatech (19:08), and before the ANI notice by Looie496 (19:34). A 3-day block seems excessive, and I am disturbed by the blocking admin's ad hominem remarks.[11][12] I hope some admin reading this will choose to unblock the user. --Una Smith (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion the blocking admin's remarks were rather restrained. There are only two possibilities: this editor is either a vandal or else very misguided. The blocking admin assumed the latter, and made an effort to get that message across to the editor (who still has not given any response whatsoever). Sometimes it is more important to be clear than to try to save somebody's self-esteem. Looie496 (talk) 06:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, good block - while the edits possibly were made in good faith; this situation perfectly demonstrates the concept of a "preventative" block - well-intentioned or not, these were contentious and often dubious edits, marked as minor, by a user that was refusing to discuss them. A block is the best, and only, way to get them to stop doing it until they discuss it. If the user agrees to slow down or justifies his edits sufficiently there is no problem with removing the bock - but I certainly agree that one was warranted. ~ mazca ^t|c 09:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Levine2112 yet again

• Levine2112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user was previously warned by Elonka (who is on a wikibreak) and so he chose to stay away from chiropractic-related subjects for two weeks. That pause has run out, but he is back to his usual agenda, an openly declared one of protecting the reputation of chiropractic, IOW whitewashing the subject wherever it's mentioned. He is deleting well-documented and uncontroversial facts based on false arguments. Please take a look at his recent edits, most notably these:

• Applied Kinesiology (AK) -- Deletion of chiropractic mention in LEAD. (AK is a pseudoscience.)
• List of topics characterized as pseudoscience -- Similar deletion of chiropractic mention in the AK section of the List

He is hiding the fact that Applied Kinesiology, a pseudoscientific method created by a chiropractor, widely used by chiropractors (and a very few other flakey professionals who are into alternative medicine), is indeed a popular chiropractic method. That's simply whitewashing and unwikipedian. There is a discussion thread here.

The only reason I bring this here is that this situation has occurred many times before over the last four years, sometimes with months-long disruption occupying a lot of editors' time on this matter. I hope we can avoid that. Please give him a warning to stop such whitewashing of very obvious and uncontroversial facts. The edits he deleted were very neutral. OTOH, a warning may be too soft, since his previous warning and pause didn't seem to work. Maybe a topic ban from the whole subject of chiropractic, no matter where it appears. -- Fyslee (talk) 21:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I would not assume without references how widely it is used by mainstream chiropractic. This is a content dispute that could use some sourcing. DGG (talk) 22:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense. The documentation is provided in the AK article, and an actual diagram is provided here at the left. It is the tenth most used chiropractic technique, used by more than a third of chiropractors. -- Fyslee (talk) 22:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

This seems to me to be a content dispute. I don't see any evidence of behaviour problems. Please carry out the content dispute on the article talk pages, not here. (involved editor) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I am doing so there. The behavioral problems are because this is yet another repetition of the same conflict on the same subject we have had with him many times before during the last four years. If we can settle this at the article level I'll be satisfied, and I see that other editors are already doing that. 00:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Why did the chiropractic advocate Levine2112 make this edit. Because he was intentionally trying to prevent AK from becoming a subsection of chiropractic. I made this edit to make it a subsection. It was obvious Levine2112 was trying to prevent improvements to the article. There was a new discussion started about moving AK to make it a subsection of chiropractic. But is became clear Levine2112 was against it. QuackGuru (talk) 18:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Applied Kinesiology (AK) is a chiropractic diagnostic method using manual muscle-strength testing for medical diagnosis and a subsequent determination of prescribed therapy. According to followers of the theory, it gives feedback on the functional status of the body. While it is primarily used by chiropractors, it is now also used by a number of other practitioners.

The above is the current lead of the AK article. Levine2112 made this edit because he was trying to prevent AK from being a subsection of chiropractic at the List of topics characterized as pseudoscience article. QuackGuru (talk) 18:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Note that Levine2112's edit retained mention in the lead of who invented it (a chiropractor) and who uses it (chiropractors and others). I think it's quite reasonable to argue that it's not a "chiropractic technique" per se unless a good source unambiguously says so; other alt-med types do use it, but as Barrett says, "The prevalence among other types of practitioners is unknown." [13] Until that prevalence is known, Levine2112's version appears justified. Same logic applies for the other article, with substantially similar issues. Content dispute, conduct doesn't cross any lines in this instance. --Middle 8 (talk) 01:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Note. According to the reference it is known that Most practitioners are chiropractors... QuackGuru (talk) 05:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Please focus your attentions elsewhere, QuackGuru. An encyclopedia is a gathering place where people ("editors", in encyclopedic parlance) meet to feel welcomed. Matters of science or reality have utterly no place on an encyclopedia, and you should be ashamed at yourself for trying to cram fact into our happy gated community. Think of Levine2112's feelings here - for years he's labored here, keeping his watchful gaze on all articles related to chiropractic, chipping and chipping away at a wide swarth of articles through thick and thin, ignoring the mumbling unease of both AN/I and ArbCom alike, until each article stands tall and resolute in glowing, radiant praise to those benevolent gods of flimflam - a veritable forest of holistic Oneness. These tireless efforts render him not just an "editor", but a "contributor" as well - and contributors - and their gentle feelings - are an encyclopedia's most prized resource! Unapologetic tyrants of the scientific method who wish to sully these and other articles with their unwholesome and unnecessary point of view should, to put it bluntly, remove themselves from this encyclopedia before their rude mannerisms and disturbing tendacy to value factual content above all else drive valuable contributors such as Levine2112 from this meek and humble project. If they, those aforementioned tyrants of reality, wish to persist in their efforts to write from a "neutral", scientifically valid, academic perspective, they are free to do so on their own websites - but let's hope they don't have the unmigitated audacity to call those websites "encyclopedias". Badger Drink (talk) 08:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Citizendium

See Talk:Citizendium#Wikipedia vs Citizendium. I believe the question is entirely inappropriate for a Wikipedia talk page, as it is not about improving the article. I and another editor have removed it several times. However, the originator of the question and another editor have restored it, and the discussion now includes material of some relevance to the article. I believe the original question still needs to be removed, but it's difficult to do so while leaving context for the followup.-gadfium 22:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a content dispute at the Citizendium article. I think a compromise has been reached. Another suggestion is "Image of Wikipedia". I think the compromise is NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 22:59, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not concerned with the content dispute, but with the talk page question which effectively asks for a pledge of loyalty to Wikipedia.-gadfium 23:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The entire thread is directly related to the content dispute. Is there any objection to the compromise. No specific reason has been given to deleting my comments on the talk page. QuackGuru (talk) 23:12, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I would delete it as Wikipedia is not a forum. That section does not help improve the article in any way. But I shall wait and see what the consensus is here. -- Darth Mike ^(talk) 23:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Wikipedia is not a forum. Delete. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Your description is misleading. AdirondackMan's original comment was made on 18:13, 14 March 2009, even before your edit started that content dispute on 19:08, 14 March 2009; therefore AdirondackMan's comment was independent of that dispute. It was removed per the talk page guidelines, before you restored it, adding your own comments and tried to imply a connection which wasn't there. It appears like you are trying to make a point by parading AdirondackMan's comment as evidence that your adversaries in that content dispute make non-neutral edits, although that is a non-sequitur since AdirondackMan is not among them.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The original "loyalty" post was inappropriate forumish, and the subsequent implication that my own "loyalty" (aka bias) was colouring my edits was perhaps even less appropriate than that. But, somehow, the whole episode appears to have led to article-improving suggestions and to article improvements, and it has given context to appropriate action and discussion. I don't like the way it started, but I'd probably let it be. Cosmic Latte (talk) 23:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I've changed "inappropriate" to "forumish" because, on second thought, Wikipedia articles are commonly put up for deletion as "POV forks," so why can't people voice objection to a project that is essentially a POV fork of Wikipedia itself? But alas, that issue is out of Wikipedia's hands, so such objection will have limited practical benefit on here. Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

←This POV "POINT" has been pushed before. We have Criticism of Wikipedia already, and if someone wants to bash Wikipedia - take it to the wiki forum or IRC. Being an editor (actually we're called authors on Citizendium), of both places, I see no need to bash one site or the other - let each stand on their strengths, or fall from their weaknesses. They both serve a purpose, there is no need for any perceived "war of the encyclopedias". While the original post is forumish, I do understand the question - I've wondered it myself why editors that want to bash Wikipedia bother coming here in the first place. It is agreed that we must present a neutral point of view; but..., canvassing the Sanger, Wales, Wikipedia, and Citizendium articles in an attempt to push a "Wikipedia isn't as good as Citizendium" POV is simply unacceptable. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you .... wow. — Ched ~ ^(yes?)/_© 02:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• As to the specific "I wish to pose a question to everyone here. Who here is loyal to Wikipedia? Who would leave this for Citizendium. Despite their public words, it's obvious Mr. Sanger wants Citizendium to destroy Wikipedia. So I ask all who read this to tell me, who here is loyal to this project? I know I am." post - while admirable in intent, it is forumish, is not centered on the article itself, and User:gadfium was correct in deleting it. It would be fine for a user page, or user talk page - but not the article itself. I also question the "Mr. Sanger wants Citizendium to destroy Wikipedia" - that is highly doubtful, and I'd like to seem some sort of reference to back that up. While Sanger believes his site will eventually provide a more stable and accurate source of information, I'm aware of no such desire to destroy Wikipedia. I think that some people perceive a dislike between Wales and Sanger that simply does not exist - even Jimbo said recently that Sanger didn't get the credit he deserved. This simply appears to be building up a war that does not exist. — Ched ~ ^(yes?)/_© 03:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

My description of the content dispute is honest. AdirondackMan's original comment directly led me to improving the article. My edit was made after I read AdirondackMan's comment. I archived all the older threads and resolved disputes. QuackGuru (talk) 08:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I was not, and would not, ever imply that an editor was not being WP:Honest, (without some extreme evidence of an outright attempt to deceive), I was merely stating the obvious fact that a lot of the Wikipedia/Citizendium topics contain a lot of POV pushing. Also, I was addressing the particular post on the talk page of Citizendium which was a forum post. I was not even addressing content dispute, or the 3RR that was touched. Nothing more ... Nothing less. — Ched ~ ^(yes?)/_© 17:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Question re: userpages of blocked/banned users

Is it a common/acceptable practice for admins to allow a U1 (user-requested) deletion of the user and/or user talk pages when the user is de facto banned from WP? I ask because of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mayme08&action=edit&redlink=1 this edit. User:Mayme08 was blocked by me in February for IP socking through a ban, and general trollfulness. What I get from this log is, because the user blanked the page, the admin in question, rather than restoring the info that was there and blocking talkpage access, baseically gave the troll what she wanted by blanking the page FOR her, under U1. Is this an okay thing? GJC 01:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there is any kind of rule about this, it probably just comes down to an admins personal preference. I personally believe it should have been kept, I always decline those requests when I come across them--Jac16888^Talk 01:41, 16 March 2009 (UTC)re

The purpose of blocked/banned templates is to assist the project. For example, if the banned user is actively socking and causing trouble, it may be important for administrators and other editors who have to deal with the disruption to know the status of the various accounts. On the other hand, when a banned or long-term blocked user accepts that he or she must leave the project, it sometimes happens that his or her doing so is impaired or held up by arguments about what his or her userpage should say. This is unhelpful to everyone, and is particularly unjustifiable where the user has edited under, or is readily associated with, his or her real name. Again, the goal is to assist with administration of Wikipedia, not to perpetuate embarrassment of the banned user, and administrators faced with these requests should keep this in mind. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I agree with everything Newyorkbrad said above, it's worth reiterating that there was no request to delete the user talk page. Deletion of user talk pages are normally only done if the user understands the right to vanish. The page should have remained blank instead of deleted on this occasion, though that doesn't mean it should be restored. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 02:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• "As a blocked user...You are not allowed to remove block notices while the block is in effect. As you are blocked indefinitely, this means the messages must stay until someone unblocks you." - This isn't true, see WP:BLANKING. Since the user is simply blocked, not banned, I see nothing controversial about the deletion, in fact, had the proper block template been used it would've been put into CAT:TEMP to be deleted eventually anyway. –xeno (talk) 19:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Stevertigo/Obama topic ban

Requesting a topic ban on Stevertigo on Barack Obama, sub-articles, and discussion pages, broadly construed, for disruption and failing to assume good faith. After warning him several hours ago, he has continued to be disruptive on DRV regarding an Obama article, even to the point of admission:

This one also pissed me off: I was in the middle of writing a detailed point by point refutation of the deletion arguments. I understand how my opponents seriously hate my point-by-points though. I make them look stupid, and sometimes take some enjoyment in it.

— 01:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

This is blockable behaviour, but I think he'll continue to act up if he isn't put on probation. Thanks, Sceptre ^(talk) 03:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And yes, I do realise the irony of me requesting an Obama topic ban when one has recently been requested on myself. Sceptre ^(talk) 03:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And you did that with a template. That's like a slap in the face. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh my god, I templated someone! That makes their disruption forgiveable! Not. Sceptre ^(talk) 10:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sceptre, whilst I do have limited sympathy, this report is at best a COI, and at worst pure trolling on your part. C.U.T.K.D ^{T | C} 10:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Try to sanction someone for maybe trying to fix BLP problems, while allowing someone who is trying to violate BLP a carte blanche. Makes sense. Wait, it doesn't. Sceptre ^(talk) 11:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sceptre, you're being much more disruptive on that DRV. Why make fourteen comments, many of which are repetitive? Your claim is that all criticism articles should be deleted, and the place to promote that claim is not on a DRV about a speedy deletion that should have been userfied. Stevertigo is arguably being a bit inappropriately sarcastic in the DRV, but that's a minor violation of WP:CIVIL that can be handled with a gentle reminder on the talk page. THF (talk) 12:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not my fault that people just don't get NPOV. And I'm not having trouble talking to JoshuaZ; he's actually being reasonable. Sceptre ^(talk) 12:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The place to raise NPOV policy is WT:NPOV, not a DRV; if you want to have a conversation with JoshuaZ, use e-mail or his talk-page, not the DRV. Your complaint is with the general understanding of NPOV (and you may well be right), not with the individual article. Make a proposal to rename all Criticism articles at WT:NPOV, point to it at VPP, and get consensus there. THF (talk) 12:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV violation+BLP=speedy deletion, and I'm trying to argue that the speedy deletion was correct because it violated NPOV (the BLP point is uncontestable). Sceptre ^(talk) 12:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

But put a CSD on Criticism of George W. Bush and see what happens. Again, your problem is with the policy, not with the individual article. CUTKD has good advice below. WP:COOL. THF (talk) 12:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Spending so long at AFD and DRV, you'd think most people around there know about WP:OSE. Guess not. Sceptre ^(talk) 13:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The issue isn't WP:OSE. The issue is that you are discussing an encyclopedia-wide problem that affects hundreds of articles, and it won't be solved on a case-by-case basis, and it's disruptive to make fifteen comments pushing your policy interpretation on a single article instead of asking for a policy change. THF (talk) 13:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sceptre, please calm down. Why don't you back off for a bit then return once you've cooled down. With any luck, others will listen to you then :) C.U.T.K.D ^{T | C} 12:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

For the record, there's a discussion on the "crit of GW" page to merge it to a different title. Anyway, the editors on the Obama articles can't even choose a picture without an edit war, so there's a fair amount of need for a nice cup of tea. Or some valium. SDY (talk) 12:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Or thorazine, the babysitter's little helper. arimareiji (talk) 13:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Endorse for the collective social good of the project in these corners of it; certain individuals have been disruptively vocal and partisan of late. It's disruptive; it's unhelpful; it's inappropriate; it's importation in some cases of real-life politics by people with noted COI; it's time to shove it out the door with a foot up the proverbial arse; it's time for us to stop playing games and acting like it's not happening. rootology (C)(T) 13:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. I see no diffs suggesting that Stevertigo has been acting in a manner befitting a topic ban; the NPOV problems Wikipedia has will become far worse when these sanctions are being unevenly handed out simply because pro-Obama editors outnumber neutral editors. THF (talk) 13:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The population of users by volume of perceived affiliation is irrevelant in anything we do, and is a reflection of where the bar for NPOV on any topic is at most. Republicans by literal volume are the population minority in the United States, so it's unsurprising that Wikipedia mirrors this. Christians outnumber Satanists, too. In the end it has nothing to do with whether one person should be banned or not from a topic and is an appeal to the minority. rootology (C)(T) 14:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The reality is that liberal editors who POV-push are treated better than conservative editors that edit neutrally. That's why we have Barack Obama articles that have completely different BLP standards than the George W. Bush articles. The proposed topic ban here--made without a single diff--is pure harassment. THF (talk) 14:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you've forgotten the liberals and rumor-mongers who besieged the Sarah Palin article back in September, and were fairly successfully held back. Bush was in office for 8 years, so criticisms of his policies are abundant. As Obama's length of time in office grows, so will the criticisms. Keep in mind he's been there less than 2 months so far. What was the size of the Bush criticism page in March of 2001, or what would it have been if wikipedia existed? Not very large, I bet. The biggest problem then would have been to try to fend off the complaints that he "stole the election". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you've both forgotten that the point of Wikipedia is to shove our own POVs up our own behinds when we work here. Did you forget I was one of the major defenders of BLP on Sarah Palin? I can hardly be called a fan of the lady in ANY sense. rootology (C)(T) 15:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I was a little busy to pay any attention to Wikipedia then, but for what it's worth, the Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal article remains wildly unbalanced; you wouldn't know that Palin had been cleared of wrongdoing from reading the lead, and it violates BLP by falsely stating that Todd Palin did not honor a subpoena. The Sarah Palin article incorrectly implies that Sarah Palin was subpoenaed, and violates BLP by falsely stating that the subpoenaed witnesses did not honor their subpoenas. That's just from a quick eyeballing, but it's a consistent Wikipedia problem that if there's a mistake in shading on a well-trafficked article, it goes to the left. There's always going to be a blind spot when dealing with NPOV; that's why we need editors from both the left and right to look at articles, because they're going to notice things that their political opposites will not. THF (talk) 20:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, THF is getting a little off topic here, but I appreciate his ability to deal with the problem logically. Scpetre filed this ANI because I was sarcastic, not because I violated CIVIL - a policy I'm intimately familiar with btw. Sceptre likewise likes to cite NPOV as the binding policy with regard to criticism sections and articles altogether, and at the same time says that this is a holistic wiki-wide policy issue that he will deal with only on the Obama article and on no other. He's just a kid, and only one particular partisan in the dispute, so it would be unfair to single him out too much, but he was in the fourth grade when I first started editing here, and I'm fairly certain he doesn't quite have a grasp of our basic concept yet, let alone our policies. That said. He may find certain support in trying to deal with crit pages, though, and I encourage him to explore that. One, it will get him involved in meta/policy/process issues, and two, it will get him more familiar with our concepts. If anyone were to simply say that our policy pages need some work, I would not hesitate to agree with them. Its unfortuntate that his misusage of policy concepts is somewhat of an emulation of other such misusage. It's all too common, even among advanced editors, to claim certain issues are under the domain of certain policies and not others. This issue probably deserves an RFAR, as its highly controversial, deals with policy conflicts, POV issues, has been disruptive, has elements of cabal, and a few others probably. -Stevertigo 18:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: Sceptre says:

1. "NPOV violation+BLP=speedy deletion, and I'm trying to argue that the speedy deletion was correct because it violated NPOV (the BLP point is uncontestable)."
2. "It's not my fault that people just don't get NPOV."

The first point is his strongest argument, and needs to be dealt with. But the problems with citing an "uncontestable" policy are numerous; 1) the article's designation as being in violation is in fact a judgment call, influenced by POV 2) the empowerment of POV editors with tools like speedy only serves to circumvent actual discussion and maybe the consensus that might follow. That's what happened here. The second point, that "its not [his] fault people just don't get NPOV," coming from someone who just discovered Wikipedia a couple weeks ago, is not his strongest argument. -Stevertigo 18:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Requesting more admin eyes at Barack Obama

Without comment on the dispute above, it would be a very good idea to have more neutral admin attention at Barack Obama. Yesterday I went there for the first time to perform what would normally be a thoroughly uncontroversial edit: adding an existing featured picture to the page. Started with a suggestion at the talk page, just to be on the safe side. Surprisingly, that sparked a long debate and a small edit war.[14] The atmosphere at that page is unusually tense. I'll be heading off to start an FPC for John McCain now; suggesting more administrative attention (preferably by people who don't care a whit about politics) would help to normalize the Obama article. Durova^Charge! 21:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

What are people's thoughts towards creating a Barack Obama noticeboard? It's up on here a lot, despite the FAQ... Sceptre ^(talk) 21:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea. More helpful might be the usage of WP:OBT on the Obama talk page. -Stevertigo 23:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

There's already an article probation page at Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation - maybe some kind of community probation notice page somewhere around there? Wikidemon (talk) 01:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It's easier for the community to at least be made aware of any issues here at ANI, so I'm not sure what a noticeboard would attempt to accomplish. In any event, I echo Durova's request - there's a remarkable number of threads here today which relate in some way to the Obama pages. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The issue of "criticism of" sections and articles is an ongoing site-wide debate on Wikipedia. The editors of the Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ (history) presented the issue as one sided, claiming that consensus was against such a section there on that particular article, and against consensus on Wikipedia altogether. The basic fact is that "criticism of" articles are conventionally used, not deleted, on Wikipedia. The previous and current version reads:

Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praises and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per WP:CRIT.

I changed the text to reflect the fact that there is actual debate:

Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section/article? A6: There may yet be one, and that section may in fact simply link to criticism/controversy article. Note that such sections are both conventional (common on Wikipedia) and controversial (often flagged for deletion). The debate, both site-wide and here, is ongoing. The arguments against and for such a section here are as follows: Against: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praises and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per WP:CRIT. For: It is Wikipedian convention to create such sections on controversial articles, to serve as a portal into criticism of the topic. The argument against such "criticism of" sections (and articles) is a site-wide one, which defies the site-wide convention, and is in fact a WP:SHOULDNOTEXIST argument that has yet to find the support of site-wide consensus. Creating a "criticism of" article likewise helps the other Obama articles, by sandboxing POV editors seeking to disparage the President, yet allowing the dimension of "criticism" to be handled at all; some nominal work is required to keep such articles NPOV.

1. User:Bobblehead reverted the change claiming "FAQ is intended to be a reflection of the opinions of the editors of this article, not the campaign of a single editor."
2. I reverted, stating: "There is a debate going on, if you hadn't noticed: The FAQ your proposing is only a POV-pushing concept for your side of the issue. The one I wrote is more in accord with NPOV, and the actual facts, because it actually represents both sides."
3. User:PhGustaf reverted, saying: "The FAQ is not a soapbox. It's a product of consensus. Please discuss any changes in talk."

I believe my edit was explanatory, in keeping with the FAQ concept, accurate, fair, and succinct, and I believe both the other editors to be reverting based on a lack of AGF, NPOV, CIVIL, and a false concept that a FAQ can be POV and one-sided, rather than accurate and helpful. The debate is not just "the campaign of a single editor", nor did my edit constitute turning the FAQ into a soapbox, nor is "consensus" the relevant and overriding concept when in fact the FAQ was entirely one-sided. -Stevertigo 00:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not discuss it there, rather than forum-shopping with every issue that comes up? It looks like you made zero attempt to discuss it before running here. The topic-ban looks better as the time passes. Grsz¹¹ 00:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

(Cutting in): *sigh* Because it seemed like a reasonable edit. When reasonable edits are reverted, that indicates that the reverter is less than reasonable for one reason or another. They stated their reasons clearly in the comment line, and characterized my edit as being something other than reasonable. I took that as indication that they intended to stand by their decision regardless of what I said. By your reference to other topical related issues, to a topic-ban (on me, personally) that has zero consensus, and by characterizing my reasonable and plainly laid out issue of an edit war as "forum-shopping" I take it that reason, NPOV, AGF, and writing an encyclopedia are not your operating concerns at the moment. Not to personalize this; that was just an observation, based on your undue and innaccurate characterizations. -Stevertigo 00:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

*sigh* The point of an FAQ is to hopefully answer people's questions prior to them getting the same answer on the talk page. As such it will necessarily reflect the opinions of the editors on that talk page and not those of drive-by editors that really, really want a Criticism of Barack Obama article created because it is so totally unfair for there to be a Criticism of George W. Bush (or Criticism of John McCain when the campaign was happening and prior to that article being dismantled or Criticism of Bill O'Reilly (political commentator) because Wikipedia has a liberal bias) and not one for Obama. The opinion expressed in the FAQ has been the opinion of the "majority" of editors on Talk:Barack Obama since the FAQ was created and has been relatively stable in the current version since then.[15] It is certainly not expressing anything about Wikipedia wide consensus, just the existing consensus of editors of that article. If that consensus should happen to change, then the FAQ can be updated to reflect that new consensus. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

You might also be missing the concept that a FAQ might "hopefully" be somewhat accurate, NPOV, and truthful. Thanks, though, Bobble.

PS: Bobble wrote: "It is certainly not expressing anything about Wikipedia wide consensus, just the existing consensus of editors of that article." Now read the FAQ answer text he defends: "Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praises and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per WP:CRIT" Seems like their concept is not-local to the Obama article, and referencing of a rather ambiguous policy in a somewhat misleading way. The issue is "criticisms" the issue is "a criticism of section andor article" -Stevertigo 00:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Why did you not bother to discuss any of this at Talk:Barack Obama, the location of this FAQ? Also, you forgot to notice the folks you've mentioned in this report. --guyzero | talk 00:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion that it is not "accurate, NPOV, and truthful" is decidedly in the minority though. That is the point that you do not appear to be getting. Fringe POVs do not get equal footing with reliable POVs. That's the way it goes. Tarc (talk) 00:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

This isn't the venue for this. You should have brought it up at the talk page in the first place. I recommend this be closed before Stevertigo can cause even more disruption. Grsz¹¹ 00:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Before anyone regards this particularly suspect idea by Grsz, please read the ANI on his unilateral mis-relocation of this thread: #Moving WP:AN/I section #Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ by User:Grsz11. -Stevertigo 01:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I find this very curious. Steve, you're making and reverting to substantial POV out-of-consensus edits on a semi-protected subpage of an article on probation, and posting to AN/I about it. Exactly what sort of administrative response do you expect? PhGustaf (talk) 01:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec) :Yes, shut it down. Stevertigo is on thin ice as it is. In the few short days he has shined his editing attention on the Obama article he been responsible for multiple AN/I reports, edit wars, a speedy delete and DrV mess, and now a topic ban proposal. We need people to help improve articles, not start trouble. I would support giving this editor every chance to stop disrupting the Obama pages, and if he sincerely means to contibute he should. He hasn't even been blocked once over this, so a topic ban is premature. But if he doesn't at least try to work with other editors and stop causing trouble, he needs to take a break either from the project or from the Obama topics. Wikidemon (talk) 01:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Consensus is not overriding? Consensus is always overriding, for anything and everything we do under our present "rules", which are that consensus rules. This is a distracting red herring on this page from the key discussion. And don't edit war. rootology (C)(T) 05:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maybe needs attention

In light of Steve's recent behavior, perhaps this idea needs another look. Grsz¹¹ 01:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Duh. He's been disruptive enough to warrant a block without the probation. Sceptre ^(talk) 09:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Got a Problem

Resolved

 – No admin assistance needed. Looks like the unified login created an account on the Volapük Wiki for me. Carry on. - NeutralHomer • Talk • March 16, 2009 @ 07:27

I just got an email from the Volapük Wikipedia (vo.wikipedia.org). The problem is, the entire email is in Volapük (some weird kinda German but not lauguage, I didn't know exsisted). It also seems I have an account at the Volapük Wikipedia (never signed up for one). Is there anyway someone can translate this for me and figure out how I have an account on a Wiki I didn't know exsisted until just now? - NeutralHomer • Talk • March 16, 2009 @ 06:40

m:SUL, no? 69.212.19.124 (talk) 07:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I do use a unified login, but I didn't know it created accounts for all Wikis. I thought it was just for Commons, Meta, stuff like that. My main concern is my personal email account was used in this.....that worries me. - NeutralHomer • Talk • March 16, 2009 @ 07:22

I got the same. Yes, SUL automatically creates an account for you there the moment you only open a page on that wiki while you're logged in on some other. The e-mail is just the automatic "notify me if someone posts to my talk page" feature. Don't know why, but somehow they seem to have that automatically activated by default for all new accounts. And the post you are being notified of is an automated welcome message from a bot. I doubt it's very clever of them to post bot welcome messages to automatic SUL account creations that have never even edited there, but then again, heck, no harm done. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Got the same thing the other day from the Romanian Wikipedia. Freaked me out a little, but no harm done. arimareiji (talk) 13:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it'd be worth looking into a way to turn off the receive e-mail feature for SUL-created accounts when the message is from a bot... —Anonymous Dissident^Talk 14:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Problem with Mitsube...

Please kindly check User_talk:Mitsube#Very_bad_editing_style.... Thanks. NazarK (talk) 12:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The user is complaining about my removal of his unsourced editorializing at a variety of places. He has responded by posting on the talk pages of editors I have had disagreements with and now posts on my talk page that I should "feel a deserved resounding slap on his face." Is this not a violation of WP:CIVIL? Mitsube (talk) 16:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Mitsube gets credit for tolerating a whole thread of complaint on his user talk. Any issues about incivility should go to WP:WQA, NazarK should stop posting a complaint about Mitsube to multiple user pages unless he is willing to open an WP:RFC/U, and let him follow WP:Dispute resolution if he has content issues. Those interested may continue the discussion on Mitsube's Talk. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not have acute content issues with Mitsube at this moment. His edits I observed were harsh, but justified to sufficient extent by Wikipedia rules. I'm concerned about his pattern of editing being a threat for preservation of valuable, though not perfectly referenced and formatted info, entered by not very experienced users. As well as his style of 'wiping out' what others care to put in. The way he does it is intentionally painful and humiliating for specific editors he targets, though he is seemingly dealing with article content only and does so based on the Wikipedia rules. It may be personally injuring for many, in my opinion. Thank you, EdJohnson, your comments were helpful and informative. I'll restart this discussion in a more proper place once I have enough evidence and better command of Wikipedia Policies and dispute tools. NazarK (talk) 19:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Editor removing Arabic info and category links

User:Aquahsocker had been removing information about Arabic names for stars and constellations from some articles and also removing Arabic-looking category links that direct one to foreign language versions of WIkipedia articles on the same topic. I've reverted all the changes made by the account that didn't seem to have a real purpose. This may be nothing out of the ordinary, but somewhere in the back of my head it sounded like it might be something I saw discussed here before about a continuing problem editor. Just thought I'd bring it up just in case. If it doesn't sound familiar to anyone, then never mind and sorry for wasting your time. DreamGuy (talk) 13:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

A new user, doing a very specific and potentially objectionable activity, with the syllable "sock" in their name? While I do not have any personal recollection of a problem editor doing this particular thing, those three things together would certainly ring bells in my head too. ~ mazca ^t|c 16:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Could be a typo: The name could have meant to be "Aquashocker". No comment on the rest. Protonk (talk) 17:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Shatt al-Arab again

I'm currently edit-warring at Shatt al-Arab (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch. The issue is our usual brand of toponymical irredentism (in this particular case, Iranian).

I'm edit-warring instead of limiting myself to discussing calmly in the article's talk page because in this particular article the latter option has proven time and again to be utterly pointless (see the archives): these people simply refuse to follow our naming conventions, instead using Wikipedia as a venue to promote their preferred terminology.

The relevant sections of the article's talk page are:

• Algiers Accord of 6 March 1975.
• It is Arvand Rood/Rud.

Anyone bored enough to take a look at this depressing issue ? Best, Ev (talk) 16:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:CHECK request

Resolved

 – Wrong venue. — neuro^(talk) 02:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like to request that the WP:CHECK checkuser tool be used to determine if user:Soidi and user:Defteri are sockpuppets of user:Gimmetrow. I would like to be able to treat each as a separate person but Soidi and Defteri emerged with instant Wikipedia knowledge to support Gimmetrow in a dispute that is now in mediation after months of discussion on the talk page of Roman Catholic Church. I understand that Wikipedia acknowledges some alternative accounts but does not allow sockpuppets to be used for voting or editwarring which is what is occurring in this case. Thanks. NancyHeise ^talk 17:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigations is thataway. Algebraist 17:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And it's customary to notify editors of threads here concerning them by using the {{ANI-notice}} template. --Rodhullandemu 17:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. NancyHeise ^talk 19:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

User:NYScholar

I seem to have become involved in an edit war with the above author who exhibits signs of WP:Ownnership of articles relating to Harold Pinter, Bibliography for Harold Pinter, The arts and politics amongst others. I and other editors (User:Wingspeed, User:BehnamFarid, User:Rodhullandemu, User:John, User:F_W_Nietzsche, User:Jasper33, User:Alai, User:SMcCandlish, User:Jayron32, User:Wrad, User:TJive, User:SlimVirgin, User:Florrie) have had occasion to comment that User:NYScholar's comments on article talk pages have an elitish, patronising and arrogant tone, frequently propounding the view that he/she is an expert and that others do not understand. The main cause of dispute has been the readability of articles which have been taken over by this editor. Good faith talk page comments have frequently been deleeted by [User:NYScholar]], and an ongoing RfC at Talk:Harold_Pinter#RfC:_Article_style was archived by User:NYScholar after two days, only reverted when I complained about this at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#Move_of_RfC:_Article_style_from_Talk:Harold_Pinter_to_Talk:Harold_Pinter.2Farchive7.

I freely admit that I have one one occasion revrted to abuse when confronted with this editor's inappropriate tone, for which I later apologised. I am concerned however that this editor's actions are contrary to policy of making Wikipedia accessible to all. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Viktor van Niekerk

I'm involved in a long-running dispute with User:Viktor van Niekerk regarding his ownership of the ten-string guitar article.

This was previously a soapbox of Viktor's, which he defended by personal attacks on anyone who tried to fix it. This went on for more than a year in fact, during which time a number of other editors just gave up. If newbies, typically they just left.

I have managed to make some progress, largely owing to a block another admin put on Viktor for incivility. However he is now back and has commenced a program of harassment in order to get his soapbox back. He is particularly aware of its high Google rating when compared to his own personal websites on the subject.

See my talk page, particularly User talk:Andrewa#General reply and User talk:Andrewa#Personal attacks, and some recent diffs from Viktor: [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] .

I fear that this will just escallate until Viktor is eventually banned. Any help greatly appreciated. Andrewa (talk) 18:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks like you haven't even used your admin powers since February, let alone "abused" them. (This information you dug up should be useful in solving the content dispute.) I see no personal attacks, personal vendettas, or whatever else Viktor alleges, as in this thread title: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Objective_Expert_musician_needed_to_resolve:_Editor_abusing_his_admin_status_in_personal_vendetta.2C_supporting_misinformation. Viktor, if you are reading this, and I presume you are: please back off on the accusations, assume good faith, have a look at our conflict of interest and no original research policies. Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 20:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Just seconding what Antandrus says. Eusebeus (talk) 21:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I haven't abused them, and Viktor knows I haven't. See Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests/Archive 43#Administrator has been misusing his status to launch a personal vendetta for his first attempt, and note that it was resolved to this effect on 4 March 2009. The other diffs I give above include several subsequent repeats of the same allegations, and surely this counts as both harassment and disruption. He has also posted similar material elsewhere on the web, naming both me and Wikipedia, see for example this post to the 10 String Guitar Yahoo! group.

Viktor has been active on Wikipedia since 31 January 2007. He is intelligent and determined, and able to quote policy when it suits him, but shows no willingness to acknowledge it at any other time.

I think we need to resolve the behaviour issue before it will be possible to properly address the content issues. Viktor is bold now in his harassment because sadly, similar tactics have always worked for him in the past.

The diff you quote of my research into Viktor's credentials actually worries me a little. Viktor has now posted a 3rd level NPA warning on my user talk page, possibly in retaliation for my posting one on his, and referring to the talk page in question. I posted this material there because Viktor was quoting himself as an authority, and there seems doubt as to his actual credentials. I think it's legitimate rather than attack as he himself raised the topic of his credentials, but it's the only even borderline thing there as far as I can see.

And it is borderline, in that it's really no solution. The solution is for Viktor to stop quoting himself as an authority. But how? Andrewa (talk) 02:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment - From what's visible at Talk:Ten-string extended-range classical guitar Viktor is consistent in using "status as admin" and is not claiming Andrewa used or abused his "admin powers." A few colorful firefights notwithstanding, the admins tend to support one another and it's hard for the lay editor to tell if an admin is "abusing" his or her status when a couple of unrelated admins drop in supporting the admin's POV on an issue. --Marc Kupper|talk 10:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

My dispute is about contents. If you want to take this further, please at least take note of the contents problems.Andrewa is making this personal. My disagreement with his edits are purely based on factual information. I seek to maintain academic standards (such as not linking to or including proven misinformation) while Andrewa (be it in his capacity as admin or editor?) has repeatedly included misinformation as well as defending it by making very dishonest claims (such as that "four" equals "eight" and that there is no difference between saying one or the other) [23]. I need hardly point out that this conduct is unscholarly and unethical. Here is the evidence and there is more, if you ask me for it:

According to WP:LINKSTOAVOID article 2: "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research" cannot be included in wikipedia. Andrewa has purposefully breached this policy in his continuing personal vendetta against me. Here is the proof:

After repeatedly being warned by myself against the misleading and factually inaccurate material presented on an external webpage Janet Marlow's site admin/editor Andrewa still intentionally linked to this misinformative page in the following edit:

• [24]

Andrewa has since made the statement: "there is no misinformation on the particular page to which I linked. Both sides are describing the same eight notes being provided by the same four resonant strings. Whether that is four "resonances" or eight is a non-issue." [25]

Not only is Andrewa mistaken in claiming that there is no misinformation on the page, or that the two sides in the argument are describing the same thing, he has clearly been abusing his status as an administrator/editor, deliberately posting false information (after being warned it is false). Let us first consider the contents of this argument:

The page to which Andrewa linked makes the following claims:

"Therefore, there are four missing sympathetic resonances on the six string guitar. If you play a C, Bb, Ab, and Gb on the first string E, there will be less sustain from these notes than the others because there are no sympathetic resonant strings. This was Maestro Yepes’ primary reason for conceiving the ten-string guitar. By adding these pitches in four extra bass strings, now provides each half step with the sympathetic resonance making a more physically completed instrument." (Janet Marlow Janet Marlow's site)

Now, in western classical music there are 12 notes in the octave: C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B. If it is claimed (as above) that four of these 12 notes lack resonances, then logically/mathematically, this means that the other eight out of the twelve do not lack resonances. Marlow lists the four missing resonances as C, Bb (=A#), Ab (=G#), and Gb (=F#) and states that "there will be less sustain from these notes than the others". Any person who is a competent speaker of the English language will understand this as meaning that these four listed notes have more sustain (more resonance) than the other notes, the "other notes" being C#, D, D#, E, F, G, A, B. In other words, Marlow is claiming four notes don't have resonance and eight do.

However, Narciso Yepes (who invented the modern 10-string guitar) always, ubiquitously and verifiably talked about eight missing sympathetic resonances on the guitar, not four as claimed by Marlow. Yepes lists the eight missing resonances as C, C# (=Db), D# (=Eb), F, F# (=Gb), G, G# (=Ab), A# (=Bb). He lists the other four notes that do have resonance as D, A, E, and B. Yepes's quotes from numerous articles/interviews can be read here [26] with references to follow them up. There is also further information on my site www.tenstringguitar.INFO about the acoustics, the science behind Yepes's statements.

Janet Marlow (and Andrewa) are clearly, in fact, not saying the same thing as Narciso Yepes (and Viktor van Niekerk). Both sides are certainly not "describing the same eight notes being provided by the same four resonant strings". So why is Andrewa falsely claiming that they are saying the same thing and linking to misinformation after repeated detailed explanations to him (off wikipedia) about this content? If they were describing the same thing, Marlow would have to speak of eight missing resonances (C, Db, Eb, F, Gb, G, Ab, Bb) not only four (C, Bb, Ab, Gb).

Andrewa only goes on to claim that "Whether that is four "resonances" or eight is a non-issue" because to admit the truth - that it is very much an issue and a source of misinformation - would reveal his involvement in not only deliberately promoting misinformation on wikipedia (going against WP:LINKSTOAVOID article 2), but also misusing his powers as admin/editor to abuse me in his ongoing personal vendetta over an edit disagreement. This defamatory conduct includes, but is hardly limited to his claim (here under "Sources" [27] and elsewhere) that Janet Marlow "is a more authoritative figure than Viktor", despite the fact that Marlow has been proven to publish misinformation while my website www.tenstringguitar.INFO is presently the only online resource that faithfully represents Narciso Yepes's statements about his invention as well as a scholarly explanation of the science informing those statements. Viktor van Niekerk (talk) 03:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

NO, Viktor. I see bullying and abuse here, but it's not Andrewa who is doing it. Please read the behavioral guidelines I linked above. Read them. Don't wait; don't post another WP:TLDR; don't deflect from the actual issue, the issue that brought you to this board, which is the way you are behaving: you need to assume good faith of other editors, be calm and polite and engage with them civilly: go read the guidelines I linked, and then, even more important, abide by them.

Regarding your claim, "Marlow has been proven to publish misinformation while my website www.tenstringguitar.INFO is presently the only online resource that faithfully represents Narciso Yepes's statements" -- you need to read WP:COI. You may not publish your own research here. Your website, as it is self-published, is not a reliable source; it is not independent, and it is not peer-reviewed. Please go read our policies and guidelines. Antandrus (talk) 05:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Is it time for a topic ban? Frankly the idea that the biggest paragraph (the historical dispute) has three things cited with one simply saying "a lot comes from here" is the biggest problem. I'm going to watch the article and if nobody can find sources for all the flowery language ("luthier noted for his innovations", "inspired by", "As was his practice, he sought advice", "concerned with the problem"), I'm dumping it. The tone is wholly appropriate and the entire Repertoire section feels like original research. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

And yes I took a hatchet to the article when a scalpel was probably needed. Most of it was unsourced and the language was a mess. Find some source, even one that's not reliable as a starting point, and discuss things on the talk page before putting it in. Games of "I know the truth" from anyone isn't productive, but feel free to revert and just ignore me if you guys wish. Sometimes, getting everybody mad at an outsider works wonders for corroborative effort. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Myusedupname's disruptive edits to Lebanon: 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

In these [28], [29], [30] edits, User:Myusedupname changed the 1948 Arab-Israeli War section from three different well-researched, reasonably NPOV versions into blatantly POV material. (Those are just the three I found in the first two pages of history.)

Given that this comprises about 90% of the user's activity on Wikipedia, and s/he has only registered in the last few months, what steps should be taken?

Vonschlesien (talk) 18:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that the user's talk page is empty. A quick glance at Talk:1948 Arab-Israeli War also turned up no discussion of the matter. Consider posting a message at either or both talk pages stating your concern. (Disclaimer: not an admin) KuyaBriBri^Talk 19:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism context

Found this at the help desk ([31]). It is an old, ongoing one but it does give some information about some of their targets. The forum where this is taking place, and the thread, is here: [32] dougweller (talk) 18:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Repeated copyright violation

(brought here at suggestion of Juliancolton after I reported this at WP:ANV)

User Einsteinbud (talk · contribs) has uploaded a slew of copyrighted images from airline websites and Airliners.net (upload log). Looking at his/her talk page right now ([33]), he/she has had one image deleted as no copyright status identified, 2 images deleted as NPD, 3 images deleted at FfD for similar reasons, and another 4 NPD that I nominated today. He/she has also been warned about blanking files listed at FfD. I would consider the notices dated 1 March and 5 March to be sufficient warning to stop uploading copyrighted images, but the uploading of copyrighted images continued until 12 March. Most of these images allege that the files are public domain when in fact they are not (some such as AirDC.jpg even contained "AIRLINERS.NET" and a copyright tag plastered on it).

A secondary issue has been this user's redirecting pages instead of using the "move" function (Example, Move log). Some of these moves have been against naming conventions. I just coached/warned the user about this today, so I don't expect action on this part immediately. KuyaBriBri^Talk 19:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC) ; edited KuyaBriBri^Talk 19:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Concerning the image violations, I reapeatedly checked on swiss.com for copyright. As one user pointed out, at one point an admin explicitly pointed out to me that these images are protected. Till that point, I didn't realize. I believe that users should be given the benefit of doubt, since we are all humans, and mistakes can also happen out of good faith. Besides that, I still believe I was right to move the Brussels Airlines to brussels airlines. It is black on white that its official name is spelled in lower case. One needs to be really blind in order not to realize that. I deny having done anything wrong concerning the Brussels Airlines article. An article needs to have the real name, nothing else!

--Einsteinbud (talk) 19:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

See WP:ATTACK before accusing anyone of being blind, this is borderline perhaps but discuss the content, not the contributor. See Wikipedia:official names for some clarification of the policy with regard to the move, it seems to be addressing exactly the point you are making. Andrewa (talk) 19:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like to let an admin comment on the image copyright issue. As for the page move, I specifically identified it on this board as a secondary issue; as such, I'm going to pretend that the statement of "One needs to be really blind..." is not a personal attack. I have replied at Talk:Brussels Airlines, as I want the focus of this discussion to be the image copyright incidents. KuyaBriBri^Talk 19:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Not an admin, but isn't this resolved? An admin has pointed out to the user that the images are copyrighted, and the user appears to accept that. I can't really add anything, except to point out that Wikipedia's servers are in the US, and that the US is a signatory to the Berne convention - "stuff" is copyrighted unless explicitly released from copyright. Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 19:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

He does not seem to have been notified of the GFDL issues of "cut & paste" moves. I've given him notice of this, which can also constitute a copyright concern. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Redirects and policy...

Looks like I need some help on redirects and policy. Neither WP:Redirect nor a search on this board could help me much yet. The best I came up with was this. Let's say someone is blanking lots of pages, putting redirects there, but neither is discussing those redirects nor is merging the content to the targets. The result is, that the majority of Wikipedia users (not editors!) will not find the content anymore, if they ever knew it's there. Is this just WP:Bold or is it WP:VAN? What if those redirects are controversial and regularly reverted by different other editors? What if this one editor does not change anything after he's been told to stop and also has been warned several times? --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 19:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Please clarify your inquiry with specific examples. KuyaBriBri^Talk 19:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I want to know policy and not denounce.--Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 19:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Redirecting an article is generally thought of as a normal editorial action, albeit a fairly drastic one. The normal Bold, revert, discuss cycle applies: A good-faith user is welcome to redirect an article without discussion if they believe it would better serve the encyclopedia to do so. Equally, another user is welcome to revert that redirect if they disagree. At that point, however, a discussion needs to occur before any further redirecting gets done, otherwise it's simply an edit war. Obviously, the normal rules of common sense applies: someone who generally does nothing but redirect things with dubious reasons is likely to get called on that, and if they go against consensus then they're also potentially being disruptive. To be sure we would need to know the specific situation you're referring to, but in general it's best to consider redirecting as you would any other potentially-controversial edit: You may be bold and do it once, but discuss if there are any disagreements, and don't be a dick about it. ~ mazca ^t|c 19:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

This still does not manage the fact that content is not merged to the target and so hidden for the majority of users. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 19:41, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

So revert, and then discuss. If you already reverted, but have consistently found the reverts changed back to redirects without any attempt at discuss, let's have the details. I find it helpful to start the discussion yourself when you do the revert, not wait for the other party. It's not required, but it works better, to explain why, & on the talk p. not just the edit summary DGG (talk) 19:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, if there's nothing wrong with blanking pages then, I have to move on. Thank you. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 19:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with blanking pages to create a good-faith redirect. There IS a problem with blanking pages against consensus, or as a pattern of disruptive edits. If neither of those is happening, then there is indeed no problem. If you suspect that one or both is in fact happening, I encourage you to bring it up here or at some form of dispute resolution - excessive redirecting of pages does not help the encyclopedia, but simply the act in itself doesn't have to be malicious. ~ mazca ^t|c 19:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

But how does this improve the encyclopedia? It hides knowledge from those who don't know better, and is a good deal of work for those who know better. And sorry, it just works against {{sofixit}} - devil-may-care? --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 20:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

In many cases it hides unreferenced, unreliable information, pointing the reader instead to a more general article. In other cases it simply hides excessive, indiscriminate information about non-encyclopedic topics. Again, this is needlessly general because you won't point to specific examples of concern, but legitimately redirecting unnecessary and poorly-referenced articles does overall produce a more navigable and reliable encyclopedia. The question is when it gets excessive. ~ mazca ^t|c 20:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And if the editor thinks that they are just "not notable"? --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 21:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Then you have a content dispute, no different from any other content dispute. There isn't any general rule that's independent of some particular page's contents, because the answer depends on the particular page's contents. If you wish to have Wikipedia's administrators endorse a particular action, sight unseen, then you may not get your wish. — Gavia immer (talk) 22:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

As said before, I'm not here to denounce. Plus, it looks like I'm wrong anyway. Maybe I have to adjust my common sense a bit. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 22:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Urgent threat

Resolved

 – Trolls. >.>

Just saw this Russian threat of suicide. Not sure who to tell, or where to contact. (move or rename thread as needed) Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Well if that is true, that person is dead now. That is very fast acting insulin. However some one NEEDs to call the cops NOW. I have already informed the user who was mentioned in that of the edit (cause I had no clue if they were saying they were married to that user..or not). Geolocated the IP. Godspeed. Rgoodermote  19:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed my notice to that user..seeing as I realized that is saying it is the user. Rgoodermote  19:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Informed Russian Wiki..well..more like hit any one that I thought was an admin. Rgoodermote  20:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Moscow's big, probably much too big. Hope it only was a joke... --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 20:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It was a troll which has been harassing ru:User:Ilya Voyager for a long time. Next time you see such threats, just revert them. Thanks — vvv (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I hope so too. But in case. I've got the Russian Wikipedia informed. I don't know Russian (surprise), so I have no clue if that has to do with the editor him/herself wanting to kill themselves or their ex-spouse. Can some one tell me if that editor mentioned is male or female? (do not bother with this then). Well good to hear it is a troll, but it's not something we would know here. However, I guess we know that the reaction time for such threats is going to be quick. Rgoodermote  20:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Stevvvv4444

User:Stevvvv4444 has resumed categorising people according to ethnicity without references and when their ethnicity is of little importance, in contravention of WP:OC#CATGRS. The user has been warned about this previously - see here. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I've warned this user. As they have already been warned for this in the past I think a block would be warranted if this continues. --John (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. If it happens again, I will request a block. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Templated by anon

Resolved

 – Reverted, if you believe you know who this is a sock of please take it over to WP:SPI. — neuro^(talk) 02:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I just received the warning template {{uw-longterm}} as the first and only edit of an anon. It is possible that I have so seriously annoyed an admin he forgot to log-in, in which case I would like an explanation of how. If not, this is vandalism; but somebody else should remove it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed as obvious vandalism. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Likely a sock of someone you've encountered, however. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Continued disruption

I've made three sections here but no action has been taken. User:Jersay continues to remove cited content in spite of warnings edit warring, and 1. He has received 9 warnings in the past 7 days over editing contributions, and was recently rewarded temporary block but that didn't solve anything. I made my points clear in the history: history and urged Jersay to solve disputes in talk which he has yet to do. Am I at the wrong noticeboard? Wikifan12345 (talk) 20:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm unsure why nothing is being done. It's blatantly clear some action needs to be taken, as talking is getting you nowhere. -- Darth Mike ^(talk) 20:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. He just removed the cited information a 2nd time. 1. Should I stop reverting? I don't want to get in trouble for edit warring but this is blatant vandalism. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I have blocked Jersay 48 hours for edit warring. EdJohnston (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Arcayne

There is an on-going debate relating to the infobox within fictional characters. This debating is raging in the disucssion page of the James Kirk biography. For the past few days, the page has been fully protected while the debate continued. Today, moments after the protection expired (but clearly far from a resolution) user:Arcayne changed the infobox to fit the format that he's been promoting. Several admins have voiced their opposition to this format. WP:Film & WP:Television have both come to the consensus that this is an invalid position and yet Arcayne (an admin) moved forward without a consensus and did it anyway. The wiki remains semi-protected. Erikeltic (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Just to point out that User:Arcayne is not an admin, not that this makes any difference on a content issue. Black Kite 20:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
• Notified Arcayne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). –xeno (talk) 20:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Erikeltic has been confusing me with an admin since he was blocked for edit-warring in the article 3 days ago, and apparently began socking shortly thereafter. Since pointing this out at least twice seems to have had no effect, I've simply tuned him out. Additionally, the point of seeking consensus is to affect change in an article without excessive edit-warring. The article was reinstated to its pre-editwar state. As I understand it (and maybe I am wrong here) but consensus needs to be found before the change is made, as per BRD. Lastly, I am not sure where the "several admins have voiced their opposition" bit is coming from, since I am only aware of one admin who has been actively contributing to the article (not as an admin capacity but as an editor). The Film and TV wikiproject consensus' do not say what Erikeltic seem to think they do. I think I am on pretty solid ground as far as inclusion goes, and have repeatedly suggested that mediation might be a route to pursue, as Erikeltic seems rather unfamiliar with policies and guidelines, having only made about 200 edits thus far. He's been counseled about his often attack-y and uncivil behavior by at least two other editors. This is forum-shopping, and having to duck-duck-goose where Erikeltic is going to ask yet another parent is somewhat tedious. This belongs in mediation, not ANI. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 22:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Rather than even dispute or "reason" these statements and accusations, I would simply implore you admins to take a look at the discussion, take a look at the behavior, take a look at the history, etc. and you will see what's going on for yourselves. Thanks. Erikeltic (talk) 22:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a normal content dispute and doesn't belong at ANI. Erikeltic has been more even-tempered of late, but this harkens back to his earlier forum shopping. --EEMIV (talk) 22:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Noah's Ark fact tag

Resolved

 – No admin action needed. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

due to a fairly involved dispute about the use of the word Myth in this lead of this article, I added a {{fact}} tag, here. this was the second time I've tried to add the tag over the last few days. since there is an ongoing dispute over the use of this word (a dispute, mind you, which involves the sourcing of the word) the 'fact' tag seems perfectly appropriate until the issue is resolved. however, it keeps getting reverted for no particularly good reason: once because it was interpreted as a POV addition - [34] - (I have no idea how a fact tag can have a POV), and once because it was claimed to be inherent in the definition of Myth - [35] - which is precisely the dispute in question.

there are a lot of bull-headed people on both sides of this discussion, myself included . I'd like an administrator to reinstate the fact tag with some notice that it should remain there until until the issue is resolved one way or another, as an appropriate temporary measure against misrepresentation. that strikes me as eminently reasonable. can someone please help me out with that? --Ludwigs2 20:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Requests for page protection is thataway. Be aware that pages are generally protected in the wrong version; that is, a version different than the one you want to impose. But so far this content dispute doesn't seem to have escalated to the point of requiring protection. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Myth is one our magic words. Skomorokh 21:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeth. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't ask for page protection, because the page doesn't need it. I asked for an administrator to reinstate the fact tag, and maybe keep an eye on things so that people don't continue to remove it before the dispute is resolved. or are you suggesting that three or four editors can simply remove dispute tags anytime they feel like it, without justification, and there's no recourse for addressing that problem? --Ludwigs2 23:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

See that magic words link above? That page tells you exactly how the word is supposed to be used, and that's how it is used in the article you are asking about. Asking an admin to make an edit that goes against what that page says is kind of silly. Quit beating a dead horse and accept the longstanding consensus. DreamGuy (talk) 00:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

For that matter, asking an admin to take a side in an edit war is...not what the admin privilege is for. Anyone can replace a tag, keep an eye on things, and demand that the tag not be removed; admins have no special rights in this regard. Admin action isn't needed here: what's needed is either gaining consensus for your views through discussion on the article's talk page, or acceding to the consensus that the other editors seem to have established. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Attack threat

Resolved

 – Nothing to see here

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

[36] 99% chance this is just silliness, but ... just in case. --GRuban (talk) 20:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Unless he's come back from a forty-year holiday I think this is a troll. Combine that with two pieces of straightforward vandalism prior to the threat - revert, block, ignore...~ mazca ^t|c 20:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:AID

Wikipedia's article improvement drive is back up and running, and needs support. Participate, better then drama here. Secret ^account 22:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Block requested for sock puppet of indef blocked editor

Resolved

 – Thanks, Tiptoety! This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 23:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I've had a WP:SPI report declined on the grounds that the sock passes the WP:Duck-test. Could I get someone to block my quacking friend User:Far To Low (as a sock of User:Nimbley6)?

Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 23:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

 Done Tiptoety ^talk 23:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

204.225.211.2

This nitwit is threatening legal action on their own talk page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:204.225.211.2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.162.222.100 (talk) 00:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

No, they're pointing out that what you wrote could be considered slander (or libel, as you point out). They're not saying that they consider it libellous, nor are they saying that they're going to take legal action. Thank them (done), move on (to do). Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 00:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I notice that IP 172 seems to be engaging in some baiting of IP 204 ... --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• I've just been reading through the history of Niagara Health System. It's seems there has been a determined effort by a series of 172. IPs to vandalise the article since July last year reducing it from this[37] to this[38]. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a note that I have semi-protected the article Niagara Health System as it seems that the IP 172.x.x.x has persistently vandalised the article over a long period of time. IP 172.x.x.x, appears to be conducting a vendetta against the NHS while IP 204.225.211.2, which resolves to the NHS, has been trying to rebuff them. The page was semi-protected for one month in December but this hasn't deterred IP 172.x.x.x so I have protected for three months. I've also semi-protected the talk page due to the derogatory comments and personal attacks made by IP 172.x.x.x there. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Moving WP:AN/I section #Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ by User:Grsz11

This may be the first meta-WP:ANI report: I added an AN/I report at #Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ as a new section, dealing with a new specific issue on a particular edit. After making a couple pointed questions/comments there, and before I could respond, User:Grsz11 moved this section from the bottom into an older previous section #Stevertigo/Obama topic ban. I believe Grsz' move was POV motivated, or at least improper handling for an ANI request. For one, the topic ban section is largely defunct: no consensus exists there for a topic ban, though Grsz himself commented in the new thread that such a topic ban (on me) "looks better as the time passes". That's right; he says that a defunct, unsupported topic ban "looks better" to him. Two, moving a new report to an older section has deprecating effects: instead of being found where new reports are, its included in an older report. That is, an older, dead request for a topic ban on me. So, what do I do here, and what can actually be done about Grsz unwarranted move? Can I get him blocked for an hour or two? -Stevertigo 01:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

This is rather moot, isn't it? Given that the discussion should take place on the Talk:Barack Obama page and not here. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Template:Cut are you talking about #Stevertigo/Obama topic ban (above), WP:AFD/Criticism of Barack Obama, WP:DR/Barack_Obama.2FCriticism_of_Barack_Obama, or WP:DR/Uncle_Stevertigo.27s_argument_matrix? (Which User:Tarc apparently tried to delete altogether. Apparently he's also under the impression that he can treat other people's comments/logical breakdowns as vandalism. He must have taken something I said as being snarky). I agree that consolidated discussion threads would be useful, but that would mean people would actually get to discuss things. The partisans here don't seem to want that; hence the reason for the three deletion issue threads. something like WP:OBT might help though. -Stevertigo 01:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Steve, have you ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Grsz¹¹ 01:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

That wouldn't be anything like a 'threat' would it be, Grsz? I fail to grok any substance in your comment here. BTW, please don't deprecate this particular thread too. That would be.. improper.-Stevertigo 01:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd say it's... NOT "the first meta-WP:ANI report." That sort of thing is as tragically common as human suffering around here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I don't quite know what I think about that. -Stevertigo 01:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

So, is there an actual issue here, or is it just more smoke and mirrors. Grsz¹¹ 01:36, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• Template:Cut At issue, Grsz, is your misconception of talk and meta discussion comments by others as being mutable according to your will. Contrition on your part would indicate both your ability to reason and a further willingness to be reasonable. -Stevertigo 01:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Then I await a reasonable user's opinion, but don't hold your breath. Grsz¹¹ 01:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• May I suggest that people take a break? Get off your computer and go and do something else for a while? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Disruption

A user nominates for deletion a huge series of "criticism" articles: [39]. This has been debated numerous times, and the articles were kept. Could someone intervene, please? It would be huge waste of time for many users to vote in all these unnecessary AfD nominations. Thank you.Biophys (talk) 01:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

N.B.: Ism schism (talk · contribs) started the mass nomination, after the article Criticism of Barack Obama that he (re)created was deleted ( AFD, DRV). Irrespective of underlying merit, this seems to be a WP:POINT violation. 98.220.252.228 (talk) 02:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• Ism schism has agreed to "pause for some time on Afds"[40]. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 02:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Why do we have these "Criticism of [...]" pages, and not one on Barack Obama? _{I volunteered and voted for Obama, but it is a legitimate question that I can't find one, solid answer for.} If someone can provide some DIFF's, that would be appreciated. seicer | talk | contribs 02:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

See Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ. PhGustaf (talk) 02:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Give it time, there will be criticism aplenty, as there is with any President. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I would assume it has something to do with the fact that most "criticism" of Obama thus far--at least the stuff that has received semi-widespread coverage--has been nothing but the sort of fringe-theory scandal-mongering that is already covered (in absurd depths that can only be justified by WP:NOTPAPER) in articles such as Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, Bill Ayers presidential election controversy, and Jeremiah Wright controversy. Cosmic Latte (talk) 02:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Right. That was the type of answer I was expecting Cosmic Latte (thank you), not some canned "look at the FAQ" B.S. There is a reason why so many keep asking, and why it keeps being repeated; you can't expect to just can out a generic answer for the removal of a page when there are similar pages regarding similar, notable figures. More detailed responses are needed. seicer | talk | contribs 02:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the ones who want the page could list the top 5 things they would feature in the article??? Then we'd be in a better position to judge its worth as an article. I notice the Bush page was created 5 years into his Presidency. So in theory, the Obama spinoff page should not occur until 2014. I also notice that everything in the Bush article summary talks about stuff that occurred well into his time in office. It's too early to write anything substantial like that about Obama, who has been in office a grand total of 56 days. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• I endorse sending these article to AfD but I also recognize the futility of it. I've given up trying to have these articles deleted or even renamed to something more neutral (e.g. Opinions on Joe Bloggs or somesuch). How we can defend hit-jobs like these is beyond me; any article that focuses primarily on the positive about an individual gets very short shrift. Just try and create Praise for Barack Obama or Praise for Sylvia Browne. Neutral point of view does not mean journalistic point of view. For all the perpetual kerfuffle around the BLP policy, we don't come down half as hard on negative bias as we do promotional articles. CIreland (talk) 04:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Wittenberg University

See also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive515#Wittenberg_University.E2.80.8E_copyvio_problem. The SPAs in question are:

• Windowsforgood (talk · contribs)
• USA987 (talk · contribs)
• Seanusa90 (talk · contribs)
• Johnathan87 (talk · contribs)
• Jejejeje568 (talk · contribs)
• Jejejeje567 (talk · contribs)

Can I get someone to take a look at Wittenberg University? It seems that it is being used as an advertising medium with constant insertions of copyvios and blatant POV. There have been a large number of WP:SPAs editing this article, coincidentally, not at the same time. Most of them have been completely non-communicable and the ones who do respond pretty much just tells that me that I am wrong and reverts. I have filed a SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Johnathan87. The latest SPA told a telling statement here, "Wikipedia apparently is very reliable in student's decisions on going to college". I would be happy to just let the SPI run its course (which has not gone very fast), but at the moment, I can't even insert a tag without a new sock account being created and removing it. I find it hard to use any method of dispute resolution, since I'm dealing with a new account every time I edit a user talk page. Thanks. Apparition^{11 Complaints}/Mistakes 05:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

This post was removed a couple moments ago by User:Windowsforgood. Looks like they are trying to cover up their sockpuppetry. - NeutralHomer • Talk • March 17, 2009 @ 05:53

Yep, every time I start to have any type of discussion or start to warn a single user enough to report, a new user gets created. For example, I requested that Seanusa90 reply to my post on the talk page here at 5:06 UTC, and then Windowsforgood was created at 5:09 and was the account who replied to me. After removing this post, I doubt we'll be seeing Windowsforgood again. Apparition^{11 Complaints}/Mistakes 06:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I've semi-protected it right now. That might be enough given the pattern I've seen, but I note it's been fully protected not long ago. dougweller (talk) 06:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that should help for a little while at least, or at least make them stick to an autoconfirmed account. According to the protection log, the last protection was just semi, not full, though. The last full protection was January 13, 2007. Hopefully, they will try talking it out on the talk page instead of waiting it out, but, if not, I may be seeing you all again in a month :) Apparition^{11 Complaints}/Mistakes 06:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

And I have given the latest incarnation a shortish block for sockpuppetry and disruptive editing. If he tries to evade that, we can begin just immediately indef-blocking any new account turning up in future. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Much appreciated. Hopefully they'll get the message. Apparition^{11 Complaints}/Mistakes 07:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Reggaeton, El Machete and 74.248.71.191

Resolved

 – 72 hour 18 RR blocks issued. Jeremy also full protected the page. Please let it be over now. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I just issued an indefinite full-protection to Reggaeton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) in order to stem what appears to be a very protracted edit war. The request that led to it was filed by 74.248.71.191 (talk · contribs), and his request has been tampered with by El Machete Guerrero (talk · contribs). The moment I issued the protection, I warned El Machete against editing others' RFPP requests, both at RFPP and at his talk page. Almost immediately afterwards, he came onto my talkpage screaming bloody murder at me and accusing the IP of being a sockpuppet. To be clear, when he first made the accusation, I examined the link and content he was edit-warring to keep in (example: [41]). The link's added inside a {{cite}} tag, and the added info's all unsourced.

Could I get some help calming El Machete down? -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Cardmaker)} 07:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Administrator Jeremy is twisting the facts and providing false information. It was not IP 74.248.71.191 (talk · contribs) it was in fact IP 74.248.71.136 (talk · contribs) and Jeremy is very well aware of this! He has chosen to ignore the fact that a blocked IP has gamed the system and played Jeremy a fool because he cannot swallow the fact I have highlighted he chose to assume bad faith on me and side with a currently blocked editor. He has even made disparing comments in his ANi comment "screaming bloody muder at me" towards me and does not seem to be a good admin.

Could I get some help getting this admin to accept the obvious facts. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 07:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

• He has now removed any evidence of me highlighting his wrong doing from his page as he does not want anyone seeing it as he quite obviously knows what he has done and is ashamed and embaressed to have it on his talkpage LOOK LOOK LOOK. I know this to be fact as he keeps archives and keeps all other comments just for some odd reason not mine! Does not take a genius to know why either. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I removed it because you would not wait for a response from me after your last post. I was dealing with the thread directly below this one when you started accusing me of sticking my head in the sand. I am not your butler. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Cardmaker)} 08:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

You are quite the comedian Jeremy, I cannot distinguish wether you are giving excuses or making jokes. I have been waiting and still am waiting buddy so don't twist the facts and you would not have bothered to come here and defend yourself if it what I said was not true. At least personally I wouldn't have because I would just pass it off as nonsense unless it was true. Checkmate buttler. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not defending myself; in fact I'm trying to keep away from you since you won't leave me be. If I had blocked the IP, I would have had to block *you* as well, EMG, and since you two were the only editors on the article I opted to full-protect it instead. Stop accusing me of malice before you end up blocked. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Cardmaker)} 08:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

No. If you blocked me you would have had to ban the editor as he played you and the system and I am quite positive if I gamed the system like this I would not get off so easy! I am not accusing you of malice, I am merely stating the facts. You take it as what ever your consious makes of it. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

El Machete Guerrero - You did not explain which IP had been blocked and when until after Jeremy started to respond. You also are making some very wild acusations about the IP editor, which the edit history does not support on looking at it.

If those are bad edits, you need to explain why.

At this point, several users (the shifting IP user, El Machete Guerrero) could be blocked for 24 hrs under our three reverts per 24 hrs policy or our policy against edit warring in general. You both failed to do much on the article talk page to explain your positions as far as I see. I don't want to do this, but if you continue swinging at Jeremy there's not much to save you from a short preventive block here.

Please stop the acusations, explain why the edits you were making were legitimate and the IP editors were not. This can be resolved in a calm and constructive manner if nobody continues to escalate it. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not feel I am making wild accusations at all, just valid observations. The shifting IP has already been blocked for 36 hours under one IP and I am aware I could also be blocked for breaking policy but the IP can be banned for gaming the system and undermining his block with another IP, which is not the first time he has done so and he has been warned plenty which he always removes off his page. As for swinging at Jeremy, if that is the metaphor you want to use then I will say I am only swinging in defense for myself. He was the one that posted this ANI not me and he is the one removing all trace evidence of my dealings with him on his talkpage and he is the one who assumed bad faith on my behalf. The IP was reverting legitimate sourced additions to the article and has been patrolling this page for longer than me removing anything that does not adhere to it's POV and vandalising in the process. George please at least you admit to the fact I am right and it is a sockpuppet gaming the system. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Jeremy has not acted wrongly in this matter. Removing the discussion from his talk page and opening the discussion here are normal and proper. Asking for an uninvolved administrator to cool down a tense situation is entirely appropriate and shows good judgement on his part. Please do not continue to acuse him of improper behavior over these actions.

Regarding the edit warring on Reggaeton - Again, please explain why the changes the IP was making were improper. All I have at this point is that you and the IP were editing it back and forth. Yes, the IP editor was blocked a little while ago on a related IP and is obviously the same person back. That does not mean that they were wrong on the underlying content dispute. I cannot tell if there's any reasonable justification for their editing OR your editing.

If I can't tell if one side was right, with clear violations of WP:3RR and WP:EDITWAR, I should block all of you and protect the article for a while.

You have time and a chance to explain what it was in the IP editor's edits which were vandalism or incorrect, and why your edits were legitimate. Please take this opportunity to explain rather than continuing to fight over Jeremy's actions or other side issues.

Please focus. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I am focused and I have been justified in my arguments. You conviently do not offer an opinion on the IP's gaming of the system a persist with me. You can block me but because he evaded his original block he should be punished in alot harsher manner than me, but either way there is no need now as the article has already been blocked so there will no longer be an edit war as we can't edit war. I already said in my reply down the bottom that I will look for the blind reverts and I will not proceed in doing so. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Not trying to poke this discussion - I just wanted to quickly address the phrase "he should be punished in alot harsher manner than me" - please remember that blocks are not punitive, they are preventative - punishment doesn't enter into it. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 11:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

El Machete Guerrero - this is a last warning. Stop attacking Jeremy and explain why you have been edit warring with the IP address on the article, and why their changes are inaccurate or improper. If you attack anyone further I will block you for disruptive editing. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

How did I attack him? Explain how I have attacked him. Don't threaten me with blocks if you will not explain how I being disruptive. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

18 reverts in less than 24 hours to one article, particularly of edits which seem to fix problems, is very bad; see here, where the IP changes a URL in a reference named "village voice" to refer to an article from the Village Voice on Reggaeton, instead of a redirect to a "latin music fansite" (though this isn't the only change, that it was reverted is clearly indicative of blind, automatic reversion without giving a moment's consideration to the content being reverted). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 08:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC) (addendum: However, of course, the full protection of the Reggaeton article obviates 3RR blocks for either at this time (since such a block would be in no way preventative) —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 08:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I thought that edit was a blind revert on his half, as a while before our revert war, someone else changed that reference to "reggaeton2009" and I thought that was the correction. He was the one editing blindly as you will see from my reversions any new content I would include in my new conversion but he would not. I will try and find exactly when it was changed and show you he did not revert that with the intention of improving it and only reverted with the intention of reverting me. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks to me like he or she were trying to fix some things. If you can show version diffs which show them actively inserting wrong content, please provide them. So far, it looks on examining a bunch of the back and forth that you were blindly reverting them trying to fix things, not the other way around.

Please provide the diffs of them causing a problem or inserting vandalism. Maybe I just missed it, but you need to show us. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay I will provide some diffs of blind reversions but you have to wait as this has been going on for ages. Give me some time. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's a few diffs; .191 showed up here, reverting to a version pushed by .213 (to be honest it does llook like the user just jumped IPs, but there's no cause to call it deliberate as the user doesn't seem to be engaging in block evasion etc). The current EW started here, and another probably unrelated IP added the oddball link here. .191 reverted both Machete and the new IP, and Machete reverted that revert, [re-adding the bad link. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 08:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes thankyou you found it. I thought I was improving the article by keeping that and I delibrately kept it as I thought someone changed a bad link. But now you have told me that the IP in fact added a fansite and did not fix the link at all and honestly I don't remember checking to see if he did in fact fix it which is my bad. But I am trying to improve the article not blindly revert it. I will try and look for more blind reversions by the IP. Give me a sec. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 08:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Let me clarify - there are three things here which are unambigous from the edit history:

• The IP editor jumped IPs within the same /24 CIDR block, and in doing so evaded a block (on purpose or accidentally, I don't know, and isn't material here).
  • Obviously on purpose as he was blocked and was not able to edit on the other IP. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 09:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
• The IP editor edit warred to the preferred version they like.
• El Machete Guerrero edit warred to the preferred version they like.

All that really matters is a good clarification of what the underlying validity is of statements about whether one side or the other was vandalizing with those edits. At this point - nothing in the IPs edits appear to be intentional vandalism. Nor do El Machete Guerrero's. The IP editors' edits appear to be more correct, removing questionable links and claims, but we haven't heard a detailed explanation by El Machete Guerrero as to why they feel the IP editor is wrong in fact and is therefore vandalizing. If we can't get a clarification to justify one side or the other's edits there should be a rangeblock for block evasion and 18RR for 48 to 72 hrs, a block on El Machete Guerrero for 48 to 72 hrs for 18RR (at least), and a protection on the page for a week or so. Someone, please explain to me why we don't need to block you for several days. What did the other side do wrong that constitutes obvious vandalism? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I feel he vandalised as he continuosly removed content which I had to re-add as did other editors Warrington and Largoplazo. Also why are you showing bias to me "at least" this does not seem very appropriate and I don't feel admins should take sides. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 09:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

And I have also previously mentioned to you and other admins that they have every right in blocking me as I also did break policy like the IP, but unlike the policy I did not game the system and evade a block which the IP needs to be punished for if I am to be blocked and hes punishment should be harsher than mine as he did alot worst "at least". I'm sure if I gamed the system in such a way you would not treat me the same George or Jeremy and in fact maybe you should block me so I can just game the system on purpose and see if you deal with me fairly and the same as you do with the IP. Because that there will be my proof that you show bias towards me and aren't fair. P.S. This is all hypothetical remember that. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 09:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

"P.S. This is all hypothetical remember that." is a poorly veiled threat. We are not children. You have been extended repeated opportunities to explain yourself - that is about to come to an end. Get to the point. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

They did 19 things wrong - one block evade and 18 counts of edit warring. You did 18 things wrong. I am not biased for or against either of you.

You need to explain why you think the content they changed was factually wrong / vandalism. Just noting that you and they went back and forth contains no information as to why you think their changes were vandalism, and yours were not. I can see from the article history very clearly that you and they went back and forth. That's not at issue. The question is, whether either you or they (or both, in some bizarre head-on collision) felt that the other was clearly vandalizing, and can explain how the others' changes appeared to be vandalism.

Just pointing out that they repeatedly made those changes does not explain how or why their changes were vandalism. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I am so tempted to go and change evry "they" to "him" as you very well know it was one person and I cannot believe you are persisting with "they". I don't need to show bias as you show it yourself George! And I just answered above I said it was vandal as he removed content which me and to other users had to re-add. El Machete Guerrero (talk) 09:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

His Repeated Additions. If you can find a single mention of any of those text additions in any of the sources used in that wiki, feel free to permanently block me. The short answer? You won't find them, because the above contributor either doesn't cite sources or adds POV or otherwise unreferenced text that is not reflected in the sources cited. That's inarguable. The purpose of the revisions were made crystal clear, case closed. Long rants and conspiracy theories of "gaming the system" aside, feel free to block both of us for 3RR. 74.248.71.136 (talk) 09:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA, thankyou sock I have not have such a laugh in a long time! "Conspiracy theories"!!! My god, you still cannot admit to gaming the system and are playing dumb. COME ON. And yes you would say feel free to block both of us because you will just jump to another IP and the article is the way you want it at the moment. So why would you not make this genrous offer, I would be very surprised if you did not in fact! El Machete Guerrero (talk) 09:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Please don't poke the conversation with a stick right now. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

18RR blocks issued to 74.248.71.1/24 and El Machete Guerrero. The block on the IP range includes a block evasion component. Both parties are reminded to use talk pages to discuss content disputes in the future and avoid edit warring on the live wiki article. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Another Hollaback sock

Resolved

 – Obvious sock is obvious. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Cardmaker)} 07:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

AntiFetch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Would anyone be kind enough to block the user AntiFetch based on this edit? It is clearly the The Hollabck Girl coming back again to likely continue the activities the primary account was blocked for.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 07:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

AntiFetch just got brought back to the drawer. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Cardmaker)} 07:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Please check/roll-back anon edits

Please see Special:Contributions/70.238.175.193. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 09:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Blocked 31h for WP:NPA violations. May be prudent to delete some revisions since they seem to contain edit summary vandalism and/or soapboxing. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 10:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

... that would be just to name a few issues with them. I'm reading those edit summaries and still just blinking my eyes... (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 11:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Tarc and User:Grsz11 on Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 March 15

I had written an "argument matrix" on Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 March 15#Barack Obama/Criticism of Barack Obama at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 March 15#Uncle Stevertigo's argument matrix User:Tarc removed it entirely calling it an "epic tirade of sarcasm". I restored it (though for a technical reason my full comment did not come through). User:Grsz came along and removed it as well, characterizing it as "soapboxing."

Even if the above criticisms were true, my comments, however organized, however sarcastic, however stylistically disagreeable to certain people, and regardless of any opinionated claim that such is "soapboxing", such are not vandalism - they are discussion comments. Editing them, moving them, interrupting them, deprecating them, and deleting them based on a simplistic POV opinion of what their value is is about as anti-Wikipedia as can be. The policy, rule, and convention has long been, unless its vandalism or a threatening message, do not in any unusual way alter people's comments on discussion pages.

Note that Grsz did a similiar thing here on this page, for which I filed an ANI at #Moving WP:AN/I section #Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ by User:Grsz11, which details how he unilaterally deprecated my ANI report on a separate but related matter.

Both Tarc and Grsz are POV partisan editors in the ongoing discussions related to Talk:Barack Obama. Their removal of my comments was improper in any context, and in this context is all but certainly motivated by their POV in that dispute. I suggest blocking Tarc and Grsz for a short time, though others may think, contrary to our customs and policies, that what they did was proper. The fact remains, that it is not, while in fact their punishment will be. -Stevertigo 12:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)