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Talk:Jolla

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by TuukkaH on 08:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Jolla (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• TuukkaH (talk · contribs)
• Ocexyz (talk · contribs)
• Bahaltener (talk · contribs)
• Dark Almöhi (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Secondary sources and Jolla itself say "Jolla OS is based on MeeGo". Jolla itself also says "Jolla OS is based on Mer". Technically, Jolla OS is based on Mer, and Mer is based on MeeGo. Mer is not very notable (yet) and could be characterised as a technical detail.

Should we trust the secondary sources and keep to them in the article intro? Or, should we make inferences that the secondary sources are incomplete, and keep to the more technically precise formulation?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've discussed the matter for two weeks now on the article talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Focus the discussion on the relevant policies and guidelines.

Opening comments by Ocexyz

(Intro)

Thank you for give me more time. I will be able to take part in discussion late on Friday, but it can happen that only on Saturday midday. Here is my statement with sources and text of sources. This has enlarged text but it will save your time on digging into sources, every of them has link so you can verify in person weather they are as here or different. The boldings of txt are by Ocexyz to pay your attention. I tried to make clear where is original text and where is my comment. Those texts has been cut, removed were parts not important for this discussion IMHO, so this is compilation.

0) My point

“Jolla OS is MeeGo based fork and use the core of the Mer which is the MeeGo core fork.” is reasonable, sourced, confirmed, factual and true, and comply Wikipedia standards.

Dispute overview is not clear enough, or not precise enough. Secondary sources and Jolla itself say "Jolla OS is based on MeeGo". Jolla itself also does not say "Jolla OS is based on Mer" (if I am wrong please provide link with confirmation in reliable source) it says "Jolla OS is based on the Mer core ". Technically, Jolla OS is based on the Mer core or the merproject, and Mer is fork of the MeeGo core and MeeGo project. Mer is not well known to end users, but quite notable for interested in vendors and known for the MeeGo and developers community. The Mer core could be characterised as a technical detail among others in the future Jolla OS.

1) The Jolla

There are no sources confirming that Jolla OS is “Based on the Mer Linux” exclusively and only, what is the point of opponents.

Jollla has declared several times by different persons their system is MeeGo and they, the Jolla company, is going to develop MeeGo ecosystem with former, current and future members of MeeGo community including: customers, software and system developers, mobile carriers, including both organizations (like companies-institutions-foundations etc.) and single p...

Ocexyz (talk) 22:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

• NOTE: THE ABOVE 23,580 CHARACTER ENTRY WAS TRUNCATED AT 2,000 CHARACTERS AFTER AUTHOR FAILED TO VOLUNTARILY SHORTEN IT. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Bahaltener

In short I was saying that we know that Jolla is technically based on Mer Core, and they use Meego name in their announcements for familiarity (i.e. social/marketing) reasons. We have no sources to show that Jolla is based on Meego project as in contrast to the Mer project (and those are two separately managed projects now). I.e. on something from Meego that is not coming from Mer. Therefore for the sake of clarity and correctness the summary should say that Jolla is based on the Mer Core. I agree to the importance of highlighting that Jolla is historically connected to the Meego project (through Mer), while at the same time I consider it important to highlight that Mer and Meego are distinct now, and Jolla is not based technically on the the frozen project (Meego). So I can propose such phrasing: "Jolla OS is based on the Mer Core and continues the work started by the MeeGo project". Or even clearer it could sound: "Jolla OS is based on the Mer Core through which it continues the work started by the MeeGo project". These phrases will show the distinction and will highlight the relation at the same time.

Opening comments by Dark Almöhi

As already mentioned the dispute is about the expression "Jolla OS is based on Meego". In my opinion this is wrong, because the Meego project was closed last year. Meego was started from Nokia and Intel, however Nokia switched completely to Windows and Intel founded a new partnership with Samsung and started Tizen. Therefore you can see "Tizen" advertised on top and bottom on every Meego webpage. There you can also see the roadmap: https://meego.com/about/roadmaps which ends in 2011, however the planned Meego 1.3 was never finished. The last version is 1.2 and that is under "life-support", i.e. there are bug-fixes and minor updates, nothing else or new. Because Meego was shut down, the open source community took over the project. They forked the codebase, re-organized it and cut down the needed packages. This is called "Mer" or Mer Core. Most notable is that they don't provide a user-interface. Jolla said on twitter that they are "based on Meego" (note the missing version number); however, they also wrote that Jolla OS is "running on Mer", and moreover they openly stated ""#MeeGo is the name people know and love. #merproject is the core OS project name." Therefore it is obvious to me that they use the Meego brand only for advertisement purposes and to gain some attention, but not for technical reasons. My last attempt for a compromise was "Jolla is based on the Meego API", because Meego's API consists only of QT/QT mobile and OpenGL ES, which btw. is not used any longer in Intel's Tizen project. This attempt however, was not fruitful either. The response were some official statements from intel, stating that they are still committed to Meego. Which however is against the facts that the central Qt libraries are not used any longer in Tizen (and of course there are no new roadmaps/plans for Meego). Maybe the best and most neutral statement now would be to omit both, Meego and Mer and only write "based on a FOSS GNU/Linux and Qt and aimed on mobile/small devices", which I believe is what the Jolla people really mean when they say Meego. But of course, I don't have a source or proof for that. Thanks for reading and helping, your decision is very appreciated. I just want the discussion to end soon. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Jolla discussion (volume 1)

• Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this request. The dispute resolution noticeboard is informal and nonbinding. The compromise would be to do both. Mention that Jolla is based on Mer, citing a primary source, then write that Mer uses code from Meego, citing a secondary source. That seems to be the basic consensus on the talk page, User:Dark Almöhi supported "Jolla OS is based on Mer and continues the work which was started by MeeGo" and User:Bahaltener supported "Jolla OS is based on Mer Linux core and strongly rooted in the MeeGo project." Although primary sources should be used with caution because of neutrality concerns, they're fine for citing technical details. I'll wait for the opening statements to clarify the issue, but that's my grasp of the dispute so far.--SGCM (talk) 19:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

If it's primary sourced it is the kind of detail which doesn't belong in the lede. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Why? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Because it's not been picked up by secondary sources and has insufficient weight. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it depends on how technical the details are. I've read the proposals for the lead in the talk page, and I agree that some are too elaborate. The lead should summarize the content of the body paragraphs, per the Manual of Style.--SGCM (talk) 01:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Please be careful, the problem is not a long or short introduction, the problem is about the ambiguously used "Meego" term. According to my opinion that term is used in too many contexts with various meanings, therefore it is not suitable to be used at the beginning of a text, as the context there is missing. Thus I either don't want to use it at all, or narrow it down, e.g. by writing "Meego API", or I have to embed it in a context, i.e. explain the whole story. However, for the latter, the aforementioned "elaborateness" is needed. Hence, the article's lead-length is not the problem it is only the consequence of the problem, i.e. secondary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dark Almöhi (talk • contribs) 09:19, 19 August 2012‎ (UTC)

How about a short summary in the lead, followed by a more technical description in the body paragraphs? That's usually the convention.--SGCM (talk) 09:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, but the "short summary" so far was "based on Meego", which is in my opinion wrong or at least confusion, as that term is used for all sorts of things. I assume that anybody involved could agree on "based on FOSS GNU/Linux", which could fix the lead problem, but then the same discussion would start in the technical part and we would be back here in no time. After Ocexyz wrote his opening statement, you will maybe see the real problem. He just edited the article now, so hopefully he will write here soon, too. In general how do things work here? Could we somehow ask some Linux "guru" for his expertise, too? --Dark Almöhi (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Though I'm not a "guru", I might be competent enough to say a word here. Still, we should probably wait a bit more for Ocexyz before we begin. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:48, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Lol, ok "guru" was maybe a too strong expression *g*, let's say it like: As long as you know that the Nokia's N9 Meego wasn't Meego you are ok ;-) No, just kidding, I see that you wrote some OpenBSD articles, that is a relief to know. My Jolla article on the German WP was finally deleted by an admin who mainly writes about medieval wars. But well, maybe just a "guru" with a strange hobby, I don't care any longer.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 21:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Just a note: Me and Bahaltener share the same view. The problem is between us two and the remaining 2 participants. I will write my statement during the week-end, just waiting for the last feedback for the last try to find a compromise without help. Anyway, thanks for your time.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 00:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I pinged Ocexyz about his opening comments, and he responded that he would prefer to participate, though he has no time for it until the weekend. Given that the case is filed some time ago, quite a lot of discussion happened at the article's talk page since and at least some of disputants consider Ocexyz's input critical for the dispute resolution process, I would propose to close it now and give it a fresh start on Friday evening (August 24, 2012), when everybody have time to discuss the issue in interactive manner. Any objections? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

No problem with me, but the discussion on the article's talk page more or less stopped. We have to wait for Ocexyz's input, so - even if you don't close, I don't expect lots of discussion. But do as you like, you are the boss ^^

Just a last note for the upcoming discussion. I googled around and the current problem is probably a bit similar to the previous Harmattan <> Meego difference. Here is an small post about that: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529073&postcount=14 There are two POVs, developer view and enduser/marketing view, I think our problem is rooted here, too. Ok enough now, cu on Friday, have a nice week. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 21:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, no problem with me either. --TuukkaH (talk) 08:02, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

We could close the case, but that would mean that all the participants will have to restate their opening comments. I wonder if there's an option to put it on hold?--SGCM (talk) 00:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean closing means deleting and open up a new,empty one? That I didn't know, I thought it is as you suggested some kind of a "on hold" function. In any case everybody will wait for Ocexyz there are only 2 days left until Friday now. I wouldn't worry too much about it --Dark Almöhi (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Now that all the opening comments have been posted, it seems that all four parties agree that the lead should mention both Mer and Meego. The dispute is over how the lead should be worded. Would "Jolla uses the Mer core, which is based on the Meego project" for the lead be acceptable to all parties? Let's avoid mentioning whether Jolla is Meego-based or not, and instead, leave it at saying that the Mer project originates from the Meego project. Technical details can be expanded upon in the body paragraphs.--SGCM (talk) 08:54, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

No, because the Mer core is just a technical detail, the lowest layer and technical one only. Recently an iPhone was pictured to have the Samsung battery. Will you say because of this technical detail that iPhone is Samsung based or Samsung mobile? I think no. More or less this is your proposal. Following this logic we could mentions some dozen if not hundreds names of the same level as Mer is together with Mer (including eg GSM ect.), but it does not make any sense at all. I don't question Jolla OS is using or is based on the Mer core - it is I who have put this for the first time into the article content. If you would say "the operating system based/using FAT32" then not necessary everybody will understand you mean "Windows" right?

MeeGo is superior quality of Jolla OS then the Mer core which in fact is just more developed part of MeeGo. The company use in sources clearly "MeeGo based" and to this can be added a technical detail of the Mer core, this is logical and source based. But not in opposite way IMHO. Also we can't hide that the whole ecosystem by Jolla is based on MeeGo. They build worldwide MeeGo ecosystem but their mobile is only Mer based? Why? This is confusing for most of Wikipeida users. And it is against what sources say also. That would not be any consensus. This could be "Jolla OS is a Linux based on MeeGo and Mer projects" or something. MeeGo is main aspect of the Jolla OS and the Jolla company, just it was formed to continue MeeGo development and use it's opportunities, just can't be omitted. The relation is {MeeGo[Mer(Mer core)]) but not {Mer core[MeeGo]). Wikipedia is not for half-truths IMHO. The consensus can't be against facts, can we agree with this? Ocexyz (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Ocexyz, is it possible to re-factor your opening statement to be more succinct? Currently it's rather lengthy. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
• IRWolfie, I have tried hardly a few days already, but discussion is mainly about respecting sources vs. editor's POV, so at this moment I think not - others need to read this to get understand the problem, what is not easy. Otherwise we will not make any progress, as so far. Then it can be moved to the "Jolla talk page" or something. Ocexyz (talk) 11:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

How about a compromise. Let's use a broad statement like "Jolla is derived from the Meego and Mer projects" in the lead, and leave the technical details in the body paragraphs. The lead should avoid using the word "x-based" to describe Jolla, whether Meego-based or Mer-based, which is ambiguous, to sidestep the entire dispute over the technicalities.--SGCM (talk) 11:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

1) How about "Jolla OS Linux came from the Meego and Mer projects"?

2) As we are discussing and you are experienced I'd like to ask: do my arguments and sources as above used are with or against Wikipedia standards? Have I confirmed enough to add to the article (later, not in the led) that Jolla OS is MeeGo based and Mer based of course? And that Jolla is going to build MeeGo ecosystem, but not Mer ecosystem. Note: it does not negate that Jolla OS is also Mer based! I'd like to ask if my approach considering the way I confirm facts upon sources is correct in the Jolla case?

3) My aim is to provide the best possible knowledge about Jolla, Jolla OS and Jolla's products. I have provided materials in my initial statements as I'd like to explain why I think that MeeGo is behind and around all current Jolla actions and plans IMHO.

4) I'd like also to provide all interested current MeeGo background, in good faith. MeeGo still is under development, and as MeeGo, not in frames of Mer, not in frames of Jolla.

No Meego is not any longer in development, see the old roadmap at meego.com. The only thing you can claim is that Meego's idea are living on through Mer, but they have their own name, and are doing a good job now. I don't see any reason to hide their fine work by using the out-dated Meego brand. With the same logic, you might want to use the even older names Moblin or Mameo. A few differences, but more or less the same, so why not use it? The obvious answer to that question is: Because these projects are discontinued, too. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 18:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

5) Additional factor is one of last Jolla tweets, which can be treated as further "MeeGo-based" confirmation. Jolla asked about "support of the same QML components, paths, folders ect. than Nokia did for Nokia N9, so developers can repackage apps ease", has answered that "use of QML including Harmattan components is encouraged", but "the details of the SDK will be shown later". Consequences of this can be using in Jolla OS the same structure like the MeeGo instance Harmattan, or it's elements what is IMHO more probable then cloning it. The common element will be again MeeGo, however Harmattan is not pure MeeGo but MeeGo instance only. Ocexyz (talk) 13:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

From what I've read, all the parties agree on the same facts (Jolla uses the Mer core, which originates from the MeeGo, and that Jolla is a successor to the MeeGo project). The dispute is over the wording of the article, and how best to express the claims made by sources. The problems arise, not from the reliable sources per se, but from the ambiguity of the word "based" in the context of the lead. The best solution is to avoid the word entirely. "Jolla OS Linux came from the Meego and Mer projects" is a good compromise. Perhaps "Jolla OS Linux stems from the Meego and Mer projects" might work as well.--SGCM (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I would note, that I don't see any claim that Jolla uses something from Meego outside Mer, which makes overall dispute somehow weird. IMO the only reason to mention Meego in the lede is to explain Mer's background and status, which may be better served by the explanatory footnote. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the reasoning behind the dispute is that Jolla officially markets itself as a successor to the Meego project, even if it is via Mer.--SGCM (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I am affraid you don't get it. Mer is the project which one of its goal have to become MeeGo 2.0. Jolla created own system and described it as "MeeGo based with the Mer core". The merproject itself is not a full Linux distribution so Jolla's Linux can't be Mer Linux for this reason. Mer is a part for developers and vendors, MeeGo is the whole system which contains the core, and it can be used Mer core (and will be). Yes Jolla is building their marketing on MeeGo, as the Jolla company has been established as the foundators has "seen the unused bussiness opportunities in MeeGo". The dispute started as around "to exclude or not to exclude MeeGo" as the Jolla OS is the Mer Linux.

Hurmola and other ex-Nokia staffers launched Jolla and have announced plans to release a MeeGo-based device by the end of 2012. The startup has so far divulged few other concrete details, but previously stated "Jolla Ltd. has been developing a new smartphone product and the OS since the end of 2011. The OS has evolved from MeeGo OS using Mer Core and Qt with Jolla technology including its own brand new UI." My opponents claimed the Mer core is full Linux distribution and completely separated from MeeGo project, what is not true IMHO.

Not acceptable according to me would be to exclude MeeGo and leave Mer, as MeeGo is linux and Jolla's ecosytem, while Mer is the core - set of libraries creating Linux kernel + hardware implementation on various platforms by different chip manufactureres like ARM and Intel microprocessors. Whatmore Jolla is actively contributing to Mer. This is a cooperation not a rivalisation. Discussion is rooted in weak reaserches on subjects which are MeeGo, Mer and Jolla IMHO.

I think "Jolla OS is mobile Linux which came from the Meego and Mer projects" is acceptable. What now is my proposal for consensus. Later in articla any details can be developed.

Yes, discussion is a bit weird, also when opponents do not provide any sources for confirmation. I wanted to show as clearly as possible what is what and why, and not to delete not confirmed by any sources speculations which in my opinion would be legitimate as after action . So wanted to show all possible arguments. And one day a Finnish person has taken us here to point proper Wikipedia policies to follow. Ocexyz (talk) 19:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you replying to me or Czarkoff? Anyhow, it seems to me that we're nearing a compromise. Are you fine with "Jolla is a mobile Linux-based operating system which stems from the MeeGo and Mer projects"? Slightly reworded, but similar to your proposal, and the proposals of the other parties.--SGCM (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. Because "came from" or "stems" sounds weired to me, too, as if two projects were merged into one, like one is the father and the other one is the mother project. But that would be false, as it is simply that Mer is Meego's heir. Somebody may call it Meego 2.0 unofficially, yes, but officially the Meego OS project ended, plus several changes. Hence the new name "Mer" for its successor. We could write Jolla stems from Mer which stems from Meego, but I assume that would be too complicated for a lead, wouldn't it?

Replying to your comment from 18:19:

Yes and the question is if we should follow marketing in a wikipedia article. I only want to mentioned the technical side, because I don't see much sense in paraphrasing advertisement claims for an encyclopedia article. However, we also have a section about corporate affairs. I just got the idea to write "Jolla OS is based on FOSS Linux" in the lead, then Mer in the technical part, and Meego in the corporate affairs under a subsection marketing / ecosystem etc. I wouldn't bother in that case. How about that? --Dark Almöhi (talk) 18:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Would "is related to" be acceptable? As in "Jolla is a mobile Linux-based operating system which is related to the MeeGo and Mer projects." Then the technical details will be covered in the body paragraphs, not the lead, as you've proposed.--SGCM (talk) 19:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm "related" ... sounds very weak. If we cannot find a better solution, ok, but it sounds like "related to Unix System V" to me. Instead of such a weak relation, I would omit it then completely. I would only keep it, if it is not explained later in the article in a marketing / technical section.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

If it is important that this project is marketed as a new generation of Meego, this should be said explicitly. Still, as I see from the sources, the term Meego is used only to facilitate recognition of the project's base platform. Thus the straightforward policy-based way to address Mer/Meego issue is to drop any mention of "Meego" in the lede itself and leave a footnote explaining the reason why some sources refer to the project as being Meego-based. Leaving Meego in the lede makes the article misleading by implying that some code was taken directly from official Meego repository. This is WP:V in action. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree to it. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a marketing tool, it need to concentrate on facts. Factual background - Jolla uses Mer. Nothing was said about them using Meego project. Therefore the factual side needs to be mentioned in the introduction. As a compromise it could say - based on Mer which continues Meego. -- Bahaltener (talk) 06:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Excluding any mention of Meego or Mer is an option. But I'm not sure how the parties of this dispute will respond to that proposal.--SGCM (talk) 19:04, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

@Dmitrij D. Czarkoff: yes. And there is no any confirmation it will NOT have any MeeGo code. Besides of the code there are also rules set by MeeGo project which are taken directly and called above by DA as "MeeGo API". Marketing is only one aspect. IT aspects will follow both MeeGo and Mer projects, not only Mer. Mer core technology is low lewel term like GSM technology for all mobiles, but it is not a mobile. By leaving Mer and dropping MeeGo the article would suggest this product has got nothin common with MeeGo while this is not true. The Jolla smartphone is an element of MeeGo ecosystem not the Mer. The perhaps options would be to use "Jolla OS is mobile Linux fork came from the MeeGo and Mer projects" or "Jolla OS is mobile Linux fork came from the MeeGo/Mer projects". Sometimes it is used "MeeGo/Mer".

I think dropping neither MeeGo nor Mer is acceptable, both are elements of this puzzle. Ocexyz (talk) 19:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

@all, about: This is WP:V in action. Yes, that is the point to consider. There are no sources that confirms "Jolla OS comes from Mer" sources says "Jolla OS use the Mer core" this is significant difference. And there are sources says "Jolla is MeeGo based" - that is why I claim that excluding MeeGo is exactly against WP:V. Also Jolla has confirmed this "We use Meego" in Twiter. What DA propose are his speculations about MeeGo and Mer relations, with full respect. Ocexyz (talk) 19:35, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Please re-read my opening statement. Your sources are invalidated by Jolla's other statement, that they are "running on Mer" and ""#MeeGo is the name people know and love. #merproject is the core OS project name." Using sth because of "know and love" but in reality running on Mer is simply marketing and in the strict sense simply wrong --Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Also see Jolla's last comment, when sb asked about if they are based on the never released Meego 1.3 codebase:

Quote Jolla: We are basing on #merproject core which has been developed since MeeGo project stopped work.

https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/237124152283262976

It was mentione above that "primary sources are good for technical details. Jolla dirictly has declared "our OS is MeeGo based with using the Mer core". If I have understood correctly DA would like to treat Jolla OS as developed on Mer OS and not to use MeeGo in the article. There is no such a possibility. There are only a few sources where Mer is mentioned and plenty of sources where MeeGo is confirmed. Wikipedia can't be used for promoting Mer purposes, that would be the case. Ocexyz (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

No, I just don't want it in either the lede (because it could be understood technically), nor in the technical part. But I would not bother if you write about the "Meego ecosystem" in the "cooperate affairs" section in a "marketing" subsection, or whatever you want to call it. Edit: I just made my last idea bold so people can see it easier. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

This is how a reliable source has been phrasing the relationship between Jolla, Mer, and Meego: "One source Jolla is looking to for talent are contributors to the Linux-based Mer Project, the core operating system of the MeeGo fork Jolla has chosen to build upon" from ZD Net [1]. Perhaps we can use that as an inspiration for how to word the lead?--SGCM (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually this is a reliable source stating that Jolla is based on Mer, not on any other Meego port. That's why excluding Meego goes in line with WP:V (and keeping it doesn't). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is, some reliable sources exclude Mer and focus on Meego. Like this article on PC Magazine or this one on Slashgear.--SGCM (talk) 20:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

There would be a problem, if these sources contained the word "Mer", but attributed Jolla to Meego. On contrary, PC Magazine says: "Last month, it was revealed that the new MeeGo OS device will incorporate Mer Core and Qt, as well as a new user interface", which translates to "uses Mer<ref group="note">Most sources call the base platform by its historical name "Meego" instead of specifying the name of the less known descendent.</ref>". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The dispute is over whether the lead should mention that Mer is derived from the Meego project. As most of the reliable sources mention Meego along with Mer, I think there is a convincing argument to include it in the lead, per the reliable sources. I don't think it's necessary to relegate it to a note.--SGCM (talk) 21:41, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

This inspiration proposed above something what I have already proposed "smartphones with the mobile Linux operating system, the MeeGo fork using the core of Mer which is based on the previous work of the MeeGo project." what could be transformed to following: "Jolla OS is a mobile Linux operating system, the MeeGo fork built upon the Linux-based Mer Project" - how about this? The same reliable source should be an inspiration also with following: "Those who make the cut will form part of its target of having 100 Finnish staff by the end of 2012, the soft deadline for the launch of its smartphone based on a MeeGo OS fork." Ocexyz (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no objections to it. Seems reasonable.--SGCM (talk) 21:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Just to make sure I understand you right: do you know any sources claiming that Jolla is based on something different from Mer and in-house UI? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but there is meritoric mistake in your thinking. How can I upload a picture here, advice me please and you will understand it hope IOcexyz (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: Mer is the core distribution, not a base platform, only raw material to built the platform. Mer itself is not a Linux distribution. And second: every bit of the Mer is developed MeeGo, in every aspect. eg: when Ford make order to sub-supplier XYZ for seats, and then mount it in to a car, then this car by complying Ford standards and by saying it still remain Ford but not XYZ.

You asked about sources omitting Mer, there are such a sources. But this is because Mer is only a technical detail. Claiming that Mer is not included to Jolla MeeGo would be a falsification. Ocexyz (talk) 21:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Please read my initial statement point 2) the mer - so you will understand better relation - in fact Mer is a kind of environment in community to sustain MeeGo, for trademark reasons and for cut several libraries and for approved policy do not use MeeGo name now. But claiming it is not related to MeeGo is just a mistake, and technical one. Ocexyz (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is not in relation of Meego and Mer (or Meego and Jolla). The problematic aspect is that you are mixing marketing and technical aspects in one sentence, which is misleading. Technically Jolla is based on Mer, not on Meego old source base. From marketing standpoint it is successor of Meego. These two facts should not be included in the same phrase. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that "Meego-based", by itself, is misleading, but I don't think anyone is advocating that position anymore. Wording similar to that which is used by the reliable sources, like it "uses the Mer core, which is a fork of the Meego project," might be acceptable to all parties.--SGCM (talk) 22:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

No, because it still makes the relation between these three hidden. Mer is not a fork, it is continued development of Meego, as well as Meego itself was continued development of Moblin and Maemo. Jolla is a custom distribution of Mer, which makes a free ride on well-known Meego trademark. You may safely replace the words "Maemo", "Meego", "Mer" and "Jolla" with "Multix", "Unix", "Linux" and "Debian" respectively, and you'll have the exactly same relation. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

A fork is continued development.--SGCM (talk) 22:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

A fork is development alongside the main project. The project to resurrect another project isn't normally called a fork, as no distinct product is developed. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I think this discussion is getting bogged down in semantics and technicalities in the same way that Talk:Jolla was. We need to reach a compromise, one that accurately represents the reliable sources and one that everyone can agree on. If it's really necessary, let's just directly quote from the source so that we won't have to argue over the wording.--SGCM (talk) 22:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that one may call a text that doesn't eliminate the problem a compromise. In effect, the question behind this particular dispute can be answered either "yes" or "no" ("Jolla is based on Mer" or "Jolla is based on Meego"), and the abomination that is currently in the lede, as well as those proposed above, are worse then any of these answers. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

@Dimitri I'll try better formatting text.

Source you asked for http://www.arcticstartup.com/2012/07/13/jolla-mobile-picks-up-the-pieces-of-meego-to-build-and-release-a-new-phone

"We want to inherit the best elements from MeeGo," says Hurmola. And there is none a word about Mer. Ocexyz (talk) 22:43, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

No, I asked for source that says that something from Meego, but not from Mer is in the Jolla. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Let's just quote from the source: "ZDNet has written that Jolla uses the "Linux-based Mer Project, the core operating system of the MeeGo fork Jolla has chosen to build upon." Would quoting from the reliable source make all the parties of the dispute happy? This way, there's no fighting over the wording.--SGCM (talk) 22:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

My answer: "no way". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to point out the absurdity of a dispute over the wording of a single sentence in the lead being several times longer than the actual article. Do you have any Wikipedia policy related objections to quoting from the source? It's acceptable per WP:RS and WP:V.--SGCM (talk) 22:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It is unacceptable per WP:MOSINTRO, WP:V and WP:RECENT: we shouldn't quote sources in misleading way. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree with above, against standard. I'd rather propose somthing like this "Jolla OS is mobile Linux, the MeeGo fork built upon Linux-based the Mer Project". I'd like a compromise have sense, so to be applicable anywhere. And I am afraid if after all my too long statemant Dark A still argue MeeGo is only a marketing, then most probably we will be back..... :( Ocexyz (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

This is factually wrong, because Jolla aren't creating any forks. They are using a fork - i.e. Mer. Precision is important and any obfuscated and confusing summaries aren't acceptable. -- Bahaltener (talk) 06:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

What Jolla is doing is exactly creating MeeGo fork, especially in area of UI. Otherwise this UI would not be compatible with other MeeGo fork which is the Mer core distribution. For the user it will be a new UI, but technically it will be MeeGo fork. And whole OS will be MeeGo fork. Exactly precision is important and any obfuscated and confusing summaries aren't acceptable. Ocexyz (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:MOSINTRO allows quotations for controversial materials in the lead: "The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be supported by an inline citation." The fact that this dispute has been going on for weeks is evidence that it is controversial and "likely to be challenged." I don't see how WP:RECENT applies, and there's nothing misleading about the quote. It's a direct quote from the article.--SGCM (talk) 23:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)\

Honestly, I dislike the use of quotations as a matter of personal taste, but we have to find some sort of resolution that all the parties of the dispute can agree on. Quotations are allowed for claims that are controversial per policy, but usually as a last resort and as long as it is properly attributed per WP:V.--SGCM (talk) 23:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Jolla discussion (volume 2)

Alright, let's go over everyone's POVs on the dispute, and try to reach a compromise starting from there:

• The lead should mention both Mer and MeeGo, but emphasize that Jolla is based on the MeeGo ecosystem. (supported by Ocexyz and TuukkaH)
• The lead should mention both Mer and Meego, but emphasize that Jolla is based on Mer, and that Meego is mostly marketing. (supported by Bahaltener and Dark Almöhi)
• Exclude any mention of MeeGo at all, except as a note. (supported by Czarkoff)

So, how do we compromise? Remember, as per WP:RS, the wording must be based on how the reliable sources present the information, and not how we personally view the relationship between Jolla, Mer, and MeeGo. Perhaps we need a DRN on this DRN. :P --SGCM (talk) 23:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea, but: " "Jolla OS is mobile Linux, it has evolved from MeeGo OS using Mer Core and Qt with Jolla technology including its own brand new UI." as this is quotations. There are about over 250 sources I ought to look for a proper quotation... I am demotivated, but only a bit.... ;) Ocexyz (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

@SGCM: I once proposed: Jolla OS is based on Mer and continues the work which was started by MeeGo. But it was refused by Ocexyz.

Furthermore you missed my proposal from above (too much text I guess ^^): No reference of Meego or Mer in the lede, then Meego in a "marketing" part and Mer in the technical section.

In general I see a problem with using that wikipedia rule, because we don't have many "reliable sources". Everybody is using Meego, then I visit meego.com and I dont find anything about Jolla or even a roadmap after 2011. That is a "bit" strange imo. The semantics are simply mixed everywhere and we are trying to get that straight. Hence, I doubt that you could solve our problem by using sources, because these sources are the very problem. I liked the fork-idea first, but Czarkoff is right, too. The original meego is not developed any further, thus it is not a fork. This is also part of the problem. Because there is no "real" Meego 2.0, people use the term Meego instead of Mer which is Meego's successor, thus it is "kind of Meego 2.0". You could use that in a casual conversation, but it does not fit the requirements for an encyclopedia imo. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 23:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, not exactly exclude any mention of Meego, but to decouple marketing and technical standpoint. Eg.:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product, equipped with Mer project's operating system and custom user interface during 2012.

<...>

Notes

I'm not very good at writing lede sections, but I hope this draft helps to communicate my idea. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 23:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks OK to me. -- Bahaltener (talk) 06:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Great work, that works as a compromise. There should be a definite article "the" before development and Linux, and "it's" is a contraction, not a possessive, which is "its."--SGCM (talk) 23:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

 Done. (Sorry for grammar — I'm dyslexic non-native English speaker, so I have to hurry not to get stuck in edit conflict.) — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree, thanks for the work and good night :) --Dark Almöhi (talk) 00:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Selfedit: I am sorry I have written For me it is OK. thx and night, will be put into article by Monday night, but not tomorrow. It was great pleasure to meet you! :) Ocexyz (talk) 00:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC) but that was the mistake as I was quite tired already after several hours. This part is for me OK: >>>Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product, equipped with Mer project's <<< But in fact can't agree with last words, because, the Mer is not an operating system now yet, this is not the full Linux distribution what your proposal suggest - this is against WP:V and WP:SOURCES. Also there is no customer user interface by the Mer WP:SOURCES at all. Only the MeeGo UI/UX fork described for easier understanding as Jolla's own UI. There is no source which would state this way - "operating system" used here is ambiguous and suggesting to reader something what does not exist. I also have mentioned above already that the Mer this is not any Linux distribution so far. However the goal of the project is being MeeGo 2.0, but now only "the core distribution" is what is (1) confirmed by the Mer site and several loud and clear statements of them (2) declared by Jolla with "using the Mer core" or "based on the merproject" (3) clear and not ambiguous. The Mer in this Jolla context mentioned as "operating system" is strong belief and strongly supported of Dark Almöhi and Bahaltener but it is only the opinion not the fact. We are obligated for WP:NPOV Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it. The article can't be biased to promote the Mer project as the full operating system when in fact and by confirmed sources it is not WP:SOURCES. Also WP:VALID While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. There is no any hidden secret the Mer Linux as full linux ditribution with complete UI, only the Mer core, which is more Linux kernel with some basic libraries. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit them where including them would unduly legitimize them, and otherwise describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world. Also I have decided to say this as in consequence in future edits it could happen that wherever MeeGo would appear it would be long discussion "but we have agreed this in fact is the Mer operating system". But this is the Mer core WP:SOURCES. Dark Almöhi claims the Mer has the text console so this is Linux operating system full distribution. But no normal customer would be able to make any single call or SMS check having only Linux text console with prompt, so s/he would have to call libraries one by one and define a phone number as a parameter for libraries, etc. etc. So we can assume we have agreed the first part but the last part have not been solved. Sorry, but I see no other solution, to avoid future problems. Ocexyz (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

This is a terminology problem, but actually Mer is as much an operating system as are Linux, Android, Maemo, Moblin and MeeGo. I see no reason to treat equal entities (Meego and Mer) differently, and to mislead readers by such treatment, and all sources I see say that Mer is operating system, or more precisely "core distribution" (which is a strict subset of "operating system"). BTW there are quite a lot of operating systems that don't have UI shipped by default. DOS is an operating system, though it doesn't come with GUI by default. DD-WRT also is an operating system, though no GUI was ever built for it. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:08, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, well we have a direct source from Jolla stating that they are "running on Mer". Your point about the missing UI is correct, however that is already corrected in the following subordinate clause, mentioning the custom UI. Would it be ok to add "core" to the "operating system" ? It would be like this:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product, running Mer project's core operating system paired with their own custom user interface, during 2012.

<...>

Notes

Changes are in italics. If not then we have to define what an "operating system" is. To me it is - you quote me correctly there - also only a text console. The UI is an extra imo. Even though it is very, very nice, I don't see the possibility to bend the definition of the term "operating system" as much as to include an UI in the case of mobile devices. As long as you can operate a system it is a operating system, no matter if it is done by text console or graphics and no matter if it is running on an old mainframe from the 70ies or a brand new mobile phone. Thus I don't think that the "core" in "core operating system" is needed, but I could agree to it if you demand it.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 09:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

 Agree. I removed the word "on" in "running on Mer project's core operating system" from your draft though. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not a native speaker myself, I just used it because the Jolla people used it in that statement:

@luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes. https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/235046019824508928

Thus I thought it is correct English. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Software runs on device or another piece of software, but not vice versa. Still, I don't particularly like the word "running" here. "Using" or "equipped with" may be better. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

After some more thinking I can suggest the following wording:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product (with their own custom user interface running on Mer project's operating system) in 2012.

<...>

Notes

I believe this is neither misleading, nor contradictory to sources. The problem of people not knowing that any Linux distribution is an operating system is solved with link to Linux distribution. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I'm late to discussing the compromise proposals. Since the ZDNet article appeared, there's now a secondary source that mentions Mer (one paragraph, the rest about MeeGo), but I still wouldn't mention it in the lead as it's a technical detail and this a company article. As you see here, mentioning Mer causes creep of technical stuff such as the Linux kernel vs. the Linux operating system distinction. In conclusion, the less technical the lead the better, thus I'd prefer the first version by Dark Almöhi above to this latest one by Czarkoff. I'd even propose something like this: "-- continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo, in coordination with the Mer project."--TuukkaH (talk) 11:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Just to note: company focus of article is a perfectly valid point, but the very existence of this dispute shows that the MeeGo/Mer issue deserves mention. FWIW this company is currently only known for development of mobile platform, thus the platform itself is a defining characteristic of this company. Once the platform receives the notice by some stable name ("Jolla OS" is a placeholder as of current coverage), the article should be split. BTW, per WP:PRODUCT this article should actually be repurposed to cover OS, not the company behind it. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 11:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree that something becomes notable by some Wikipedians having a dispute over it. Based on the reliable sources, my interpretation is that Jolla is known for continuing the work on the MeeGo ecosystem as a viable alternative to Android, iOS and Windows Phone ecosystems (a market perspective as opposed to a technology perspective). Sorry, I also don't understand how WP:PRODUCT could say that an article content shouldn't match its title: the secondary sources very much talk about Jolla business and not Jolla OS. --TuukkaH (talk) 12:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

As already stated in the talk page some days ago, the term "ecosystem" is also very broad, undefined and ambiguous. What does it really mean? Meego also included a strictly defined Meego UI, but Jolla will use their own UI. Do you want to exclude the Meego UI then from the term "Meego ecosystem" in the Jolla article? If you want to write a well-defined, logic entry for an encyclopedia then the easiest thing is to bury the Meego brand and let it rest in peace. In the same way as Moblin or Mameo are not used any longer. The only thing which is still actively developed and used is Mer. Nothing else. For example check out that talk in Poland at SmartDevCon:

"How to develop user experiences with QML for Mer" https://smartdevcon.eu/content/en/timur-kristof-32.html

Nobody mentions Meego. As said above I would agree to mention it in some marketing/ecosystem subsection in the cooperate affairs section, but I don't want to see such fluffy terms in the lede or the technical part. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 13:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It seems clear from this line of discussion that there are people willing to work – instead of a "fluffy", general interest article about Jolla the business – on a new technogy article, say Jolla's technology, Jolla's operating system or Jolla OS. In that world, it might be that nobody mentions Meego or 'ecosystem'. --TuukkaH (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The whole Jolla story is about MeeGo. And Jolla clearly state this. WP:SOURCE If there will be any sources which confirms Jolla does not know what they are working on then we can try to use them. So far any conference somewhere wherever is irrelevant for Jolla's work. Note the conference is sponseored by Microsoft, which have interest in killing MeeGo as competitive system for Windows. COnflict of interests. We can't "burry MeeGo" because Dark A just want it. The most of sources and reliable says about MeeGo. Also CEO, COO, and the chairman of the company says: we develop MeeGo based smartphone. So because Dark A. want to "burry MeeGo" and promote Mer then WP:SOURCES and WP:V are no longer valid? Don't think so. Any sources saying "Jolla has dropped MeeGo for the Mer"? If you don't have any such sources then this is pure speculation against confirmed facts and sources. Unrelated conference to be a proof? How? Are we in wikipedia or in Harry Potter Matrix? ;) Ocexyz (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocexyz (talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I see no proof that Jolla story is about MeeGo as opposed to the whole path of Maemo, Moblin, MeeGo and now Mer. I see no source that states that. The commodity use of the word "MeeGo" to briefly reference the whole chain doesn't verify the particular viewpoint you insist on. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

@Ocexyz: I already wrote my souce above. It is not me that recognized that Meego is a non active project, it is Jolla themselves. Here again as repetition: We are basing on #merproject core which has been developed since MeeGo project stopped work. https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/237124152283262976

"stopped work" is similar to buried, canceled, finished, closed, whatever, take the verb you prefer. These are not my words, these are Jolla's words.--Dark Almöhi (talk) 15:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

@ all. Dark A. has written above: >>>I am not a native speaker myself, I just used it because the Jolla people used it in that statement: @luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes. https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/235046019824508928 Thus I thought it is correct English. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC) <<< BUT the whole source says as following: "Luis Soeiro ‏@luissoeiro @JollaMobile Are you mer-based? If so, congratulations, but please try to keep the user free from locked bootloaders or locked roms. #meego Jolla Jolla ‏@JollaMobile @luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes." Please note Jolla has confirmed "#merproject core" so upon WP:SOURCE WP:V this ought to be used. And core is significant what I claim this for several weeks already at jolla talk page and also here. See my statement and see bolded core. It is hard not to notice that IMHO. Again WP:SOURCE there is no confirmation of used "Mer operting system" but "#merproject core". If this is obvious to understand this opereting system the use of source is valid. So:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product (which use the core of the operating system from the Mer project together with other technologies) in 2012.

<...>

Notes

I also propose to remove footnote because this is described below in the article and more precise, so there is no need to double it here, also this is not about Jolla story. And core is significant what I claim this for several weeks already at jolla talk page and also here. See my statement and see bolded core. It is hard not to notice that IMHO. Again WP:SOURCE there is no confirmation of used "Mer operting system" but "#merproject core". Ocexyz (talk) 13:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

"Core" is a word used to indicate that this operating system isn't supposed to be presented to end users with no modifications. The same meaning is used within Archlinux, where the setup utility installs operating system from "Core" repository, allowing user to install packages from other repositories once OS is installed. I would also note that there is a Fedora (operating system) Linux distribution, which referred to its installation CD (containing the whole users desktop, as complete as default package of any Maemo-based device) as Fedora Core. The bottom line: the word "core" is commonly used to indicate that the operating system it is added to the name of is supposed to be extended with other applications to become fully usable.

So it is probably good time to stop insisting on the superficial significance of the word "core" in case of Mer (operating system) (notice the name of the article BTW). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

So this is quite valid and relevant as shows that it is only the part of the picture what gives benefit of precise description. Yes or no? Without it somebody can think that here it is supposed to be presented to end users with no modifications. Right? So this word prevent ambiguity right? Hence is reasonable. Ocexyz (talk) 14:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Operating system is not the software that is supposed to be presented to end users with no modifications — it is just an environment to run user's software. Mer is more functional then DOS, so if describing the latter as operating system doesn't mislead readers, describing the former in the same way wouldn't confuse anyone too. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Mer is not able to run itslf any user software, it is only primer on hardware to attach the layer which will enable this. How about this:

Jolla Oy (commonly called Jolla Mobile) is an independent Finland-based smartphone manufacturer start-up continuing the development of the Linux-based mobile operating system previously known as MeeGo. Jolla intends to announce its first smartphone product (using the Mer project together with other technologies) in 2012.

<...>

Notes

so we could avoid weather this is core or anything else, and everybody interested in could go to further. MeeGo deletion is not acceptable. WP:NOP WP:CONSENSUS]] Ocexyz (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

References for "Mer is not able to run itslf any user software"? It can't run vim and mutt? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:17, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

In context of smartphone? How? You have only touchscreen so monitor but no keyboard. You can run it while using stationary comp, that is right. But we are in smartphone context here. From history and recent statemants that screnn will be larger then 3.5' we can expect no keyboard. So the answer in this particular case is negative. Right or have I missed anything? You can attach anything via USB or BT as those are above. In general 99,9% common humans can't, even if you would find a way now. Mer is only tool for development, not a system for using it. Ocexyz (talk) 15:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "operating system in context of smartphone". There are operating systems and other software, and Mer falls in "operating systems" category.

BTW, if we apply your statement to Android, it would also not be an operating system, as it needs launcher and dialer apps (and related services) to be usable on smartphones. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Please see smartphone operating system. Regarding Android, it includes the so-called stock apps such as a launcher and a dialer. --TuukkaH (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I notice that Mer as listed in smartphone operating system as one of them, so what? Regarding Android: do I understand you right, that the smartphone with Android and no dialer doesn't run OS? Sorry, I missed the point. Anyway, the stock dialer, launcher and other software are just one of optional repositories, they are not part of Android strictly speaking (the device with custom launcher and dialer is still running Android). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Just as a funny side-note: I recently saw a posting on a Mer discussion board. There they just announced that emacs is running now on Mer, too. I had a good laugh .. emacs ^^ They stressed, that Mer's emacs package however, is only optional, and not part of the Core distribution by default as it was with Meego core. A wise decision imo ^^ --Dark Almöhi (talk) 15:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, actually the ZDNet article explicitly refers to Mer as a core operating system. So, per WP:V this wording is warranted. As there is no source that would state that Mer is not an operating system, per WP:NPOV and per WP:NOR it must be referred to as operating system, so I believe we can forget the whole "Mer is not OS" thing and move on. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify - Jolla is not using Meego operating system in any way. It's factually incorrect and can't be placed in the article. Mer is a distribution, but it specifically omits hardware araptation/Linux kernel and user interface. So strictly speaking you can't say it's an operating system (since OS requires a kernel). You can call it a meta system, i.e. it's an instrument for OS creators. I.e. for Jolla to make an OS, they need to take Mer, add a kernel with drivers for particular device (handset), add their interface, add some additional user application if they want and etc. All that in the end will constitute the Jolla OS. However all that will have nothing to do with the Meego project. We are back to the square 1. Jolla are not based on Meego. -- Bahaltener (talk) 18:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact that Mer doesn't include kernel in its repo doesn't mean it is not an operating system — it uses Linux kernel as well as all other Linux distributions, and as well as most other distributions doesn't keep a copy of kernel. The same is true for Archlinux, which doesn't have kernel in its repo, but still is an operating system; same is true for Linux From Scratch, which includes nothing but still is an operating systems.

The whole thing of "operating system vs. Linux" is discussed to death in different places of Wikipedia with a resulting convention to call distributions "operating systems". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposed resolution

I propose to split the Jolla article into:

• Jolla mobile (the current name says it is the name the company is currently referred by in most sources) — an article about the company with no mention of Mer (operating system) in the lede and
• Jolla OS — an article about the platform Jolla mobile develops, with discussion of Mer (operating system) relationship.

As I see it, this would solve the problem. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Support, except keep the current article mostly as is (and not really a split):

• Don't change the name to Jolla Mobile, as company article guidelines suggest using company official name (Jolla Oy) minus legal suffix, and the company seems to use Mobile only to disambiguate in case Jolla is already in use (eg. Twitter, and domain before they bought jolla.com).
• Remove the mention of Mer from the lead.
• Add a main-article link to Jolla OS from the Jolla#Software section. --TuukkaH (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

If you want to remove Mer from the Jolla article, you need to remove Meego as well. I.e. speak about the company as a company and don't mention any technologies. -- Bahaltener (talk) 17:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

MeeGo is not a technology since it was discontinued — it is a promoted buzzword, and (used alone) indeed belongs to article company trying to both use Mer and capitalize the hype around MeeGo events. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I support the gist of Czarkoff's proposal, but I don't think it's neccessary to disambiguate the company name as Jolla mobile, when the Jolla OS name is already disambiguated. Jolla should be reserved for the company, Jolla OS should be for the platform. An analogy is the Google and Google Search articles.--SGCM (talk) 12:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't really care whether an article on company would be Jolla, Jolla mobile, Jolla Ltd or Jolla Oy. The particular choice of Jolla mobile above was dictated by WP:COMMONNAME and the fact that the main topic isn't absolutely clear. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Try at an objective measurement of what's the common name: Google News search results: "Jolla Mobile" 78 results; Jolla Meego 2680 results. --TuukkaH (talk) 19:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The article stated that "Jolla Mobile" is a common name. When I check Google News, I get 78 results for "Jolla Mobile", 7 results for "Jolla Ltd" and 5 results for "Jolla Oy". Though "Jolla MeeGo" indeed spits 187 results, none of them use this construct as a company name. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 19:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm ... what would be the difference to my idea from above with a Linux-only lede, Meego/Meego-ecosystem under cooperate affairs and Mer under software? The risk to mix up things again by new editors? I am also a little bit reluctant to the split up, simply because we will get 2 micro articles out from one small one. As long as there are no products the "Jolla company" article will be rather short, people might fill a delete request again, especially if there is then another Jolla OS article. Hence, I would try to split it only after the release of some hardware or at least the release of enough information/specification of it. But ok, if we cannot find a better agreement (and we are looking for one already some time now), then I am fine with the split. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

As the company and its software technology are both notable, they deserve their own articles. Then we needn't find and agree on a compromise on the topic of the article ("fluffy" business or "exact" technology). As for article size, no content would need to be removed from the current company article, its structure is good as it is (just the lead is in need of tweaking). --TuukkaH (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Well yes, notable for me and you, but to others? I assume we would have to use the WP:PRODUCT, but there are not yet any products or services, so even the people who voted for Jolla last time, might not vote for it the next time, especially if there is a Jolla OS article. I also wouldn't care if you mention Meego / ecosystem and other fluffy things in the business part. ;-) --Dark Almöhi (talk) 12:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Dark Almöhi: unless there is something to touch, notability of Jolla Oy and of Jolla OS remains questionable, and particularly notability of company is more questionable then that of software platform. That's why I think that technical detail should prevail if article is not split. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

"Notability remains questionable"? If you think that's relevant here, then why did you make the proposal to split in the first place? Anyway, the notability of the company was firmly established at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jolla, and you're saying the notability of the platform is even less questionable. --TuukkaH (talk) 22:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I managed to mislead you: I mean that as there is only news stream, and until there is an actual product, that is sold and reviewed, there is no way to determine the main topic among Jolla Oy and Jolla OS. Nevertheless, splitting topics makes sense as it allows finer-grained focus on company and technology respectively. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello all, I'd like to propose a "Forest for the trees" solution that I think will satisfy both sides as I precieve them (the "MeeGo" and the "Mer" camps).

Jolla Oy[1] (internationally Jolla Ltd., commonly called Jolla Mobile in many sources) is an independent Finland-based company to design, develop and sell smartphones with a mobile Linux operating system based on the work of the MeeGo and Mer projects.

This allows those who see it being a specific slight to talk exclusively about one or the other. Both get somewhat equal representation in their contribution to Jolla. I chose MeeGo over Mer to go first simply on alphabetical order. The idea is that we've been discussing this here for 11 days and still not come to any sort of resolution. Pending this solution not being accepted I'm inclined to request that this be closed and have either more advanced forms of DR (Widely advertised RFC (including applicable wikiprojects) or moving forward to MEDCOM). Hasteur (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Mixed-breed dog

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by 65.121.228.201 on 13:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Mixed-breed dog (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Chrisrus (talk · contribs)
• 65.121.228.201 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A user has parachuted into this page and made some edits that are not appropriate. He continues to revert other peoples edits and corrections and refuses to accept a proposed compromise. He is using repeated reversions. Despite rational explanations, he insists other users haven't made their point to the point of filibustering on the talk page.

The issue is that this page is about mixed-breed dogs. One section mentions "pariah dogs" which is a general term for feral dogs descended from a wild population anywhere in the world. A user (Chrisrus) is insisting on changing a photograph of a mixed-breed dog to one of an Indian Pariah dog, which (despite the name) is a pure-bred dog breed recognized by the United and American Kennel Clubs.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

The user has been offered a compromise of removing the original picture and having no graphic at all, but he has refused the compromise and continuously reverts page versions back to his own version. User's talk page shows this has been a pattern on other pages as well.

How do you think we can help?

The compromise is appropriate. If the group cannot agree on a graphic, the text will suffice. There are plenty of other graphics on the page.

Opening comments by Chrisrus

The problem seems to derive from the fact that "Mixed breed dog" and "Pariah dog" are problematic terms. This issue at the moment is whether the article should have at least one picture to illustrate the "pariah-type" characteristics that article describes and tend to be common to many such so-called "mixed breed" unbred or neverbred dogs. His edit would leave the article with none at all, and my edit would leave it with at least one. His reasoning, that if he can't have the picture that had been serving this purpose, then he will allow no such picture at all, is fautly.

The problem is the edit he insists on does not constitue article improvement because it would remove from the article the only illustration of the "unbred" or "never bred" dogs which the article repeatedly talks about; the autochthonous landraces that have never been been literally bred, but which, perhaps unfortunately, are often referred to as "mixed breeds". These dogs, the article says, tend toward a particular set of "pariah-type" features named for the features of the Indian Pariah dog. No dog illustrates pariah dog features better than an Indian pariah dog, so I want to use it, but other dogs may do so as well as the indian pariah dog, and therein lies a possiblity of compromise. But we need a picture to illustrate the "pariah dog" characteristics of many such dogs. Having no picture whatsoever of any of the "unbred" so called "mixed-breed" dogs that the article keeps talking about is not an improvement over having one and it is more important to improve the article than to do the opposite because we can't agree on one that will do the job.

Mixed-breed dog discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hi folks, I'm Zaldax, a volunteer here at the DRN board. Just waiting for opening comments from both parties so we can start. Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 13:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm taking a look at the article in question, as well as at the talk pages and images in question. Now I'm not an expert on dog breeds, so I may not be the best-qualified to address this, but I'm wondering where the page Pariah dog fits into all this? Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that the question is what kind of photo to use. Do we use an image of a recognized purebreed with pariah ancestry, or a photo of a dog "belonging to or descended from a population of wild or feral dogs."? Is that the case?

According to the lede of Pariah Dog,

"The term pariah dog (also pye dogs, or pi dogs) originally referred to Chinese/Indian feral dogs of a particular type, but it is now used by the United Kennel Club to refer to a purebred dog category."

Am I correct in that some of the disagreement stems from the two separate definitions of the term? Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

After a bit of digging, I noticed that the Carolina Dog is recognized as a "(Spitz and) Primitive" breed by the American Rare Breed Association and as a Pariah dog by the UKC. According to the article, the dog wasn't discovered until the 1970s. Would one of the images on this page be an acceptable compromise?

(Comment by Chrisrus removed as it's way over 2000 characters. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 10:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC))

That comment is way over 2000 charactors, and so could you trim it? ~~Ebe123~~ → report 21:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The issue began when the long-standing illustration was removed by Chrisus because he felt it was of dubious origin. This is acceptable. The issue is that the substituted picture is no more relevant because it shows a pure-bred dog, according to the British Kennel Club). In the spirit of Wikipedia and compromise, the general feeling of the group is that because true pariah dogs (not pure-bred Indian Pariah Dogs which descend from what was once a feral population) are a wide-ranging dog type in different counties of the world, no one graphic can accurately illustrate it. Therefore the compromise is not to have a photo and to let the text stand as the main descriptor. The section does not need a graphic, and the page already has many good illustrations. Anyone that wants to see a type of pariah dog can link to that page. Remember that this page is about mixed-breed dogs, and the variety they exhibit. Remember that compromise is give and take, one of Chrisus' edits was accepted, one was questioned. The best solution is to leave the section as it stands, without a graphic in this section, which is really a minor part of the page as a whole. Thanks, all. 65.121.228.201 (talk) 14:30, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

(Are third party comments allowed here?) No landrace breeds can be described simply as a purebreed. There might be some being co-opted into a closed registry system, but that does not make the entirety of the group purebreds. I've tried and failed to find evidence of the Indian Pariah Dog being recognized by either the AKC or UKC. The Indian Pariah Dog article mentions recognition by a US Pariah Dog organization. That's hardly enough to claim that a dog owned by a farmer in a village in India is pure and therefore not a pariah dog.--Dodo bird (talk) 16:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Third party comments are not only allowed, they're encouraged! Our aim is to resolve a content dispute as best as possible; if you feel you can help, then by all means please do so! Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

That's true, what Dodo says. Also, a search for the word "pariah" at the British Kennel Club website just now returned no hits. And what this IP user says about why I swapped out the pictures isn't true. I did it so we could see the dog clearly. Chrisrus (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for that detailed explanation; not only have I learned something about dogs, but now everything is much clearer. With regards to comments above, the edits by Chrisrus do look like good-faith edits to me, and the picture that he replaced does indeed show the characteristics of the dog better. I'm going to do a little digging, to see if I can come up with anything more supporting the Indian Pariah dog as a recognized purebreed. It does strike me as a little odd that an animal which arose by natural selection can be designated a purebred just like, say, a bulldog, though.

In any case, I've contacted Roregan, the creator of PariahDog.png, and asked if that dog is still available to him or her. With any luck, we might be able to get a better picture of that dog; if that is the case, would that be an acceptable compromise? Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for contacting me. I am sad to report that Roo, my beloved feral pariah-type dog, is no longer alive. I will look for other photographs that might better illustrate the characteristics of such dogs and will happily supply one, if I can find one. (If anyone has suggestions as to a more illustrative angle, please let me know.) From my quick read of the discussion, it does seem to me that the existing picture has been left in the article from which it should be replaced - the one on "Pariah Dogs" and excised from the "Mixed-Breed Dog" article in which it was appropriate. Roo was not an Indian dog and was certainly not a pure breed no matter how that term might be defined. What she was was a very good example of a "pariah-type" mixed breed dog -- of which there are millions of examples to be found in virtually every dusty pothole everywhere in the world. I do think that the type is so common and distinctive that the article is diminished by the lack of an illustrative image. While I comb my archive for a better angle, I suggest that an image of an Indian-type dog be used in the article about the pariah breed and that the existing pariahdog.png be reinstated in the mixed-breed article. Roregan (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about Roo. Ideal pictures of dogs for leads and anytime a really good overall look at a dog in dogbooks and breed posters at the vets and wikipedia infoboxes and so on are generally standing and in profile, see if you have one. The ideal background would indicate the circumstances that led to the features of the dog, such as a Husky with a showy dogslead in the background, or a pekingese in what would look like a Chinese nobelwomen's room, and so on.

I have an idea for a compromise in which we satisfy this IP user's worry that people will be confused by means of a re-written caption for the picture so that everyone knows we are using a picture of an Indian Pariah dog to exemplify the characteristics of pariah-type dogs in general. If a caption can satisfy his concern that people won't understand well about pariah dogs then I hope he will agree to stop reverting. I tried once today and plan to try again with maybe an even clearer wording tomorrow. That way, a casual scanner of the article will understand why an ancient landrace is being shown in an article about "mixed breed dogs". Chrisrus (talk) 22:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

There seem to be no photos in my archive that would be the sort of "hero shot" that would work in this context. I have seen other pictures of feral street dogs that would work for the mixed-breed dog category. I will be sad, however, to see Roo — a magnificent representative of lack of breeding — disappear from the article. It does seem odd that her picture remains in the article about the Indian pariah dogs. As has been noted before, Roo made her home in Ontario. As for the observation that the original edit was made because the dog was of dubious origin — that IS the point about these dogs, is it not?

Since the article on mixed-breed dogs does contain a link to the pariah dog article, it does seem that the casual reader is the loser here, since the striking similarities amongst feral pariah-type dogs around the world provide us the opportunities for insights into the fundamental nature of both dogs and the human communities to which they attach themselves. My picture was one of those. There were others, one I remember taken in Central America, that seem to have been excised, too. From the standpoint of conveying interesting and useful information, therefore, I think we've lost ground here. Too bad. Roregan (talk) 19:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is losing a bit of focus. I think all the information on Pariah dogs is interesting, but probably belongs on its own page. The definition of a pariah dog is "A pariah is any dog of a breed or landrace that adheres to the long term pariah morphotype, has a deviant estrus cycle from the typical canine one, and displays primitive behavioral characteristics." The section on pariah dogs would be better on its own page, or on the Landrace page. Not the mixed-breed dog page. Mixed-breed dogs are not a breed or a landrace (naturally occurring breed.) The characteristic of a mixed-breed dog is that it has a wide gene pool.

And I repeat, as others have, that a picture of an Indian Pariah Dog is not suitable on a mixed-breed dog page. 65.121.228.201 (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Pariah dogs are small feral populations descended from more ancient lines of dogs, Because of the isolation and subsequent narrowing gene pool, they tend to start to look alike over time. They are in fact, the opposite of a mixed-breed dog - one that is genetically diverse. This text section should be more properly on another page. 50.7.10.34 (talk) 15:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

A single individual cannot be said to have a wide gene pool or be genetically diverse. These are concepts that apply to populations. --Dodo bird (talk) 23:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

As the addition of the following with updated caption would constitute article improvement, I would add it immediately:

• 
  Unbred mongrel landraces such as the Indian Pariah Dog are not literally "mixed breeds".

I apologize to the IP editor. Looking back now, there are times when I was clearly not reading what he was trying to tell me carefully enough and as a result misunderstood him and consequently got his back up. Many of my posts could have been written better and I should have been more careful. I also want to say that the cause of this conflict seems to me to be more due to problems with the English language than the behavior of this editor, and the end result of it has been quite good for the direction of the article.

Finally, I'd like to ask if it would be proper for me to bring up a few other conflicts there are in the article that need to be addressed before closing this thread, or would it be better to open a new one? Chrisrus (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

(Note: Signing in now) Chrisus. Take any new edits back to the Talk page for that article.

I re-read the Mixed-breed dog page. The picture and section on Pariah Dogs definitely isn't suitable there. It also makes no sense to add a graphic to an already graphics-heavy page with a caption saying that it's an example of what something is not. If anyone wants to add this picture to another suitable page feel free. You might try Dog, or Indian Pariah Dog, or Pariah Dog, or Feral Dog.

Chrisus, you mentioned above there was an issue during the original discussion with your use of English. If English is your second language, I'm sure posting on the Talk page first would help, as the regular contributors could help with corrections. Also by preparing additions in a WP program, you can use the spelling and grammar checker. Remember, many contributors are professional writers and editors, and barring another explanation they'll assume errors in spelling and grammar are just carelessness.

I'll post the findings here on the article Talk page and see if anyone who hasn't commented yet wants to weigh in. If anyone who hasn't commented yet has a suggestion for where the material should be moved, other than what has already been suggested, please suggest it. Thanks, David Ross19 (talk) 18:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem with the English language I was talking about lies in the fact that while on the face of it the term "mixed breed dog" would seem to imply a mix of purebred dogs, it often is used to refer to mongrel landraces, such as the Indian Pariah dog, that have no purebred dogs in their ancestry. Purebred dogs origianally came from such mongrels, or so says the article, not the other way around. So a huge number of so-called "mixed-breed" dogs are not literally a mix of breeds but are nevertheless considered mongrels because they've not been selectively bred by people. This is what the article says. This can be confusing for many people, and I was saying it seemed to me to be the cause of this conflict. Chrisrus (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is about whether an image of the supposedly "pure" Indian Pariah Dog can represent pariah dogs. The claim of the Indian Pariah Dog being recognized as a purebreed has not been backed up by evidence. It wouldn't matter anyway. Even landrace breeds with "pure" populations like the Saluki and Basenji have country-of-origin dogs are not seen automatically as pure by the purebreed registries which recognizes them. The suitability of including information on pariah dogs in the article was not previously discussed even when the pariah dog image was, which would imply a tacit acceptance of this information. Discussion along this line is outside the scope of this dispute and should start at the talk page first.--Dodo bird (talk) 23:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• 
  Roo, a "pariah-type" mongrel.

Hi! I'm Amadscientist, I'm an editor and a volunteer for DR/N. I will be happy to assist with this dispute. I will read through the information, do a small review of the article and talkpage and post an intitial evaluation a little later. While this takes place, please do not post further replies or comments here for the time being and I also suggest taking a small break away from the article and any associated editor talkpages during this time as well. The evaluation will not be a judgement or take a side. It will just be an assesment of where the dispute is at this time.--Amadscientist (talk) 12:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I was asked to start contributing more at DR/N and I picked this dispute. However, since you are involved I'll just wait. Chrisus and I haved worked together before. Jobberone (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

No, please, do help out on this page. I introduced myself and stepped back, purposely to allow time for any objection of any kind. I will withdraw and move to another DR. Thank you Jobbrone! I support you collaborating with these editors towards a resolution! Thank you.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think I got the same message myself earlier. Yes, to all you who made comments above, I'm yet another "volunteer" here. I looked a bit earlier today, and the American Kennel Club webpage doesn't list the Indian Mongrel Dog listed there, but I suppose it might be under some other name. The question seems to be about landrace dogs vs. mixed breed dogs vs. "purebred dogs" as per the various kennel societies. I didn't comment then because I didn't check the datestamp on Amadscientist above. I did see that our own articles on some of the topics above are a bit equivocal on whether "landraces" might be "mixed breed," and issues regarding WP:NAME and whether the apparently most frequently used definition of "purebred dogs", which seems to be the kennel societies' definition, is the definition used by others. I am myself willing to offer any assistance, if it's wanted, but thought I might let Jobberone know what I saw earlier anyway, and leave any future involvement on my part at the discretion of others. John Carter (talk) 22:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Windows 8 editions

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Codename Lisa on 19:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on User talk:Jasper Deng#Your source please. Location of dispute User talk:Jasper Deng#Your source please (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Codename Lisa (talk · contribs) Jasper Deng (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Windows 8 editions article claims that: Windows 8 is compatible with all previously published Windows applications Microsoft has not yet released maximum-supported system specifications, such as the maximum amount of RAM or logical processors I deleted these statements due to their lack of source but User:Jasper Deng has restored them. He refuses to supply any source and refuses to let me delete them either. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Just discussed in User talk:Jasper Deng talk page. The discussion has reached a standstill. How do you think we can help? How do I think you can help resolve the dispute? Strange question. If I had an answer for it, perhaps I would have not been here. Opening comments by Jasper Deng Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I consider the verification of the third statement to be easy. However if I'm convinced doing so does not constitute WP:V to the best extent possible I will back off. I consider such a statement as verifiable as the saying that Microsoft has not released details on Windows 9. More later.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Windows 8 editions discussion Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for the "Opening comments by Jasper Deng" section to be filled out so I can hear from both sides before I open up this section for comments. While we are waiting for that, I would like everyone involved to review the following Wikipedia policies, guidelines and (optional) essays. Even if you are sure that you understand our policies, please take a moment and review them again: WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:CONSBUILD, WP:BRD. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 11:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC) I am now opening this up for discussion. My first question is this; is our goal to show which versions share a lot of code (which would require citations to reliable third party sources) or is our goal to show the names chosen by Microsoft (which would best be established by referring to official Microsoft documents)? For example, Windows ME shares a lot of code with Windows 98, Windows Server 2008 shares a lot of code with Windows Vista, and Windows Server 2008 R2 shares a lot of code with Windows 7, but Windows Server 2008 R2 is quite different from Windows Server 2008 -- especially the i386 version. Which way do we want to go with Windows 8 versions? Also, are there any particular edits to the page that any of you would like to be examined closely? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Hi, Guy Macon If you are referring to #1, I must say you are the third person with his own unique interpretation of this clause. I was the second. I thought it meant all applications released for all previous versions of Windows work without a compromise on Windows 8 Core/Pro/Enterprise. Such an assertion would be so controversial that would require more than one source. Jasper Deng, however, explained it differently. So far it seems this statement is miserably ambiguous. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 11:43, 25 August 2012 (UTC) I have been looking at the talk page and edit history. Consider trying to prove a negative. For example, no reliable source says that Microsoft is not a major producer of snack foods. WP:V says "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source." Saying that Microsoft is not a major producer of snack foods is not likely to be challenged, and so could be included. (The question of why we are even discussing snack foods is another issue -- just because something is allowed doesn't mean it improves the article.) So what about the statement "Microsoft has not yet released maximum-supported system specifications"? Does that need a citation to a reliable source? Or is the failure of anyone challenging the statement to find a source for the specs enough? This raises the following question; how do you, the Wikipedia editor, know that Microsoft has not released this information? Did you read it in a reliable source? If so, cite the source and we are done. Did you look for the info and not find it? That would be WP:OR. If that is how you know, the best you can do is to say that the info is unknown, not that we know that Microsoft didn't release it. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Hello, Guy Macon Just ask yourself: How can the original contributor be 100% sure that Microsoft has not published a single piece of spec, be it free or premium, electronic or paper, to the general public or its subscribed training partners? Has he or she indeed purchased and studied all? Third-party publishers have already published products on Windows Store and a device certification program for Certified Windows 8 Devices is already open. Have these third-party developers or manufacturers not received any spec regarding maximum limits of the supported hardware? Unlikely enough to force us submit a source. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 10:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC) I am going to wait for Jasper Deng to respond before commenting on the above. In the meantime, I would like to float a trial balloon: Sooner or later Microsoft will publish that information where it will be easy to find. How about creating a column for it with "TBD" for any values we don't have a number for (which is all of them at the moment)? On the plus side that would give us a convenient place to put the info when we get it. On the minus side, columns with the same value in each entry are annoying, so maybe this is a bad idea. Comments? --Guy Macon (talk) 17:44, 25 August 2012 (UTC) I would note, that the first statement is known to be false (eg. KLC isn't working). If there is a published claim, it may be quoted though. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC) That statement has been modified so it no longer makes the claim. I think Guy Macon's idea in the previous comment is a good idea. I don't care if Microsoft gave PC manufacturers that info, since it does not count as "released" to the public in that general sense.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Hi, Jasper. I am afraid the new modified statement is worse than the former. It now says "Possible to be compatible with current Windows applications" which raises the question of "how exactly possible?" and "who says so?" This new statement is also contrary to your initial assertion that you are simply trying to expand on the difference between x86 and ARM platforms. As for the second, the statement never mentions "general public". In addition, even if it did, I think I am pretty much general public. What do you say to that? Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC) P.S. I don't think the idea of a TBD column in a high traffic article is a good idea. It gives the editors the excuse to fill the article with lists after lists of what we don't know or Microsoft has not done. This is at best redundant and at worst indiscriminate. Even if well-cited, Wikipedia is not a directory of things we do not know about Microsoft or things that Microsoft could have done about Windows 8. The best policy to leave out things we do not know; when add them as we discover them. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 08:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC) I strongly suggest that the first phrase in whatever rendition should go. It is a claim that is likely to be challenged, and a potential WP:NOR minefield. I would replace it with a fully attributed quote (On August 26, 2012 John Doe stated: "Windows 8 is compatible with all the Windows software."[1]). Until such quote is found, this claim should be just removed. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC) OK, here is where we are. My "extra column" idea is a non-starter. As a DRN volunteer I sometimes throw out a "how about this?" idea to see if all the involved editors like it, but it isn't my place to push for an idea if even one involved editor doesn't like it. The involved editors should work together on the page; we DRN volunteers are here to encourage that, not to become involved editors ourselves. As for the two statements in question, we have three editors (two of us uninvolved other than participating in this DRN case) who agree that those statements need to be sourced or removed. I have carefully read all the arguments here, on the article talk page and on both involved user's talk pages, and have seen no argument that justifies those statements being allowed without sourcing. In my opinion, it is now time for Codename Lisa to remove those statements, for us to wait a day or two in case there is a compelling argument that we have missed, and then to close this case. Dmitrij, do you concur? Does anyone who has not commented yet want to weigh in now before this closes? --Guy Macon (talk) 11:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC) I absolutely agree. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 11:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Hello. I removed the statements. Here is edit diff: [2]. I hope it is for the best. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 16:18, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Closing as resolved. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by YMB29 on 01:19, 24 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes. [3][4] Location of dispute Talk:Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Talk:Continuation War (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved YMB29 (talk · contribs) ‎Wanderer602 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The disagreement is about the result (infobox) in the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive article and a description of an event in the Continuation War article. Basically, the problem is with understanding what the sources actually say vs. what one interprets them to say. The other user seems to have trouble understanding WP:OR and WP:JDLI. Have you tried to resolve this previously? No original research noticeboard,[5] third opinion,[6][7] military history project talk.[8] How do you think we can help? Point to what should go into the articles based on the rules. Opening comments by ‎YMB29 For the result in the first article, there are sources that almost directly say that the offensive was a Soviet strategic victory.[9] They mention the main strategic goal and say that it was accomplished, which is enough to consider the result a strategic victory (see [10]). So I wanted to change the result to Soviet victory, since strategic victory basically means victory in general. The other user complained that this is not an accurate description of the outcome. The third opinions agreed with me that it was a Soviet victory, but suggested blanking the result or linking to the aftermath section to avoid the dispute.[11] I then suggested the result to be more specific - Strategic Soviet victory,[12][13] which is exactly what the sources say. No one objected and so I changed the result to that, but Wanderer602 then started reverting it. The second issue is that Soviet/Russian sources describe fighting at a small town near the old Soviet-Finnish border on September 4-5, 1941. ‎When I added this information to the article Wanderer602 started looking at Finnish sources and was not able to find anything about this. He found the Finnish units that were supposed to be in the area, looked up their war diary entries (primary sources) for the dates in question, did not find any evidence of fighting and concluded that nothing happened. So he then added text into the article that questions the Soviet/Russian sources (this section). To me this is obvious synthesis. -YMB29 (talk) 02:23, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by ‎ Wanderer602 None of the sources state that it was a Soviet strategic victory. It is a conjecture. WP:3 explicitly stated that they preferred to see no result at all or alternatively a link to separate section in the text instead of a result. YMB29 has repeatedly refused to accept this and instead of following the recommendation that he personally requested added a qualifier to the result (strategic) and ignored the WP:3. User YMB29 never sought for consensus in talk page before making his edit instead he made the edit while the discussion on the issue was still ongoing. In addition user YMB29 later also refused to discuss the matter on the talk page. First of all, Novyi Beloostrov was not a town, it was a village. To be clear Finnish records (all chronology, books of military history and war diaries) note that fighting took place just outside (north of) of the village but not inside of it. YMB29 claims that Finns took the village on September 4. I looked for the event in the Finnish chronology of the Continuation War and to other books of military history handling the warfare at Karelian Isthmus in 1941 none of which stated anything of a kind. I looked for war diaries of all the Finnish units located in the area at that time, none of which agreed that Finns would have taken the village or fought for it at this time. Demand that there should be an entry stating explicitly that 'there was no fighting at N. Beloostrov' like made by YMB29 is rather odd since if nothing happened then there would have been nothing to be written down about it. All used sources are reliable sources per WP rules, including primary ones which have been used precisely according to WP rules. No synthesis or OR has been involved. I have failed to understand why user YMB29 has insisted on including a supposed minor skirmish of this level to an article handling the whole of the war. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Comments by uninvolved Nick-D I'm not really involved in this, but I did comment at Talk:Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive#Comments by others in response to a request for input from uninvolved editors which was posted at WT:MILHIST. I think that this would be a highly suitable matter for DRN to take up, though I think that editor conduct is at least part of the problem (and possibly the entire problem). I note that ‎YMB29 and Wanderer602 have been blocked for edit warring over this. Nick-D (talk) 08:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Comments by uninvolved Buckshot06 Unit war diaries can sometimes reflect differing 'truths' of what went on despite looking like very authentic sources. Remember that six different people seeing the same event can give six different versions. This is why we need to stick to solid secondary or tertiary literature, when historians have been able to sift the claims and come up with reasoned accounts of what happened. In the absence of solid historical literature on both sides, the skirmish or otherwise should not be listed in the article, in accordance with WP:BURDEN. Wanderer, YMB, would encourage you both to do further literature searching on this issue. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Comments by uninvolved (this time) Whiskey I thought we had gone through this already in Talk:Continuation_War/Archive_13! From Finnish side we have several histories of Finnish advance of 1941 and regimental histories which describe how far Finns advanced at a given date. We have been so thorough in this issue, that I believe that if I get Your permission to combine all this information together, YMB and Wanderer, I could get it published in any Finnish historical journal and very likely in some Russian one also. The real differences between you is really minimal in this issue and could be easily settled with some goodwill. --Whiskey (talk) 22:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Let's open this thread for discussion. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 01:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Response to comments by Buckshot06: That is true but there was no mention of the fighting in war diaries at any level, i checked those from battalion (where possible), regimental, divisional to Finnish GHQ level for the formations in the area. Since user YMB29's source discussed of Finnish casualties i even checked the online Finnish war time dead database which reported that only very few men (IIRC 2) had fallen in the Finnish units responsible for village sector. I fully agree and understand why secondary & tertiary sources are preferred but i was essentially forced to use primary sources since higher level sources that i checked had nothing about this event. There was plenty of discussion of Finnish capture of Staryi Beloostrov (fin: Valkeasaari) but not even a mention of Novyi Beloostrov (fin: Valkeasaaren asema - lit: Valkeasaari railroad station) for that time period. Primary sources were the ones which had some mention of the locality in question but none of those reported fighting there. There are descriptions of Finnish advance extending to the edge of the locality - at a stream between villages of N. Beloostrov and Alexandrovka in the northern (ie. Finnish) edge of the village - but none that Finns would have taken the village or that fighting would have taken place inside the village. As for finding something in the literature, I have checked through various Finnish military historical chronologies and books but have been unable to find references to the event - and to be honest do not even know where i should be looking any more. - Wanderer602 (talk) 04:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Searching through sources yourself and making a conclusion to prove something and especially to disprove what reliable sources say is exactly what original research is... As for sources that the fighting did happened, there are both primary and secondary sources for that. One of the sources I used for the article is even an English language book.[14] -YMB29 (talk) 06:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC) As stated above by Buckshot06: In the absence of solid historical literature on both sides, the skirmish or otherwise should not be listed in the article, in accordance with WP:BURDEN. So far there is none from the Finnish side - not in the (official) war diaries (cited as references) nor in the official chronology (also cited as reference). Language hardly matters if the author has used solely Soviet sources. If you have anything from the Finnish side then please provide them since i have nothing beyond what i have already provided. Also so far i have backed every statement i have made with citations to what the referenced sources have said, so it has not even been OR regardless of your allegations. - Wanderer602 (talk) 06:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC) No it is pure OR. If you want to question the sources that say that the fighting did happen, you would have to find a secondary source that concludes that there was no fighting. In the absence of solid historical literature on both sides means that there are no secondary sources from both sides, but there are secondary sources from one of the sides, which say that the fighting did happen. -YMB29 (talk) 18:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Again, like stated previously, if nothing took place then there would have been nothing to write down about. Not event the official chronology of the war mentions it in any way. And statement in its current form refers to the need to verification from both sides that something took place. Your demand is simply impossible to fulfill since there wouldn't be records of something that didn't take place. Even senior editors commented this matter before, (link to archived discussion) "If there are indeed reliable secondary sources that do not mention fighting at that location, than the claim that there was no fighting is not original resource... POVbrigand (talk) 07:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)", and i provided exactly that, the official chronology of the war. And once again, not OR. - Wanderer602 (talk) 19:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC) No, you are making the claim based on your personal research of sources; the sources don't say that there was no fighting. You fail to understand that the event did take place according to reliable sources, so the burden of proof is on you if you want to prove that it did not happen, and you have to do this without OR. Selective quoting of others from discussions that did not lead to anywhere is not going to help you. I can also quote a third opinion, one you ignored: Appropriate if you're writing an essay for a history class, or a book about the subject, that's a fantastic point. However, as wikipedia is an encyclopedia, secondary sources can only be used as justifications for assertions of this sort. Especially in these sorts of "facts by omission" points. There are a lot of reasons why that point may not have made it into war diaries, from censorship to grief. It's not our role as editors to make guesses as to what happened based on raw evidence. I know that's beuraucratic BS(it really is), but that's how wikipedia works, and for good reason. i kan reed [15] -YMB29 (talk) 21:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Again, wrong, you are missing the source used in addition to the war diaries which is the official chronology of the war - so you are already badly mistaken in your initial claim that the statement that fighting didn't take place would be based solely on the war diaries or on personal research. The official chronology or history of the war does not make a single mention of fighting at N. Beloostrov on 4-5 September 1941. Neither has done any of the military history books that i have looked into, and i have looked into quite a few to find a single mention of this. If you - or any one else for that matter - can find a Finnish side source please provide it, i haven't found any and neither had user Whiskey. As nothing happened nothing was recorded; so it is physically impossible to find a source stating that there would not have been fighting at that site. Essentially what you demand is a paradox in itself. Also to be more precise, war diary of unit at front-duty at the front facing the village does make a statement, it notes that it 'was quiet' (or calm/tranquil, see translations for 'rauhallinen'). - Wanderer602 (talk) 22:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC) How do we know that you found the right unit? Once again, there are plenty of sources that describe the fighting and your own conclusion based on your personal research of Finnish sources means nothing here. Now let others comment. -YMB29 (talk) 23:10, 25 August 2012 (UTC) I don't think that continuing the debate on the articles' talk page here (complete with accusations of bad faith) is at all helpful. I agree with Buckshot's comment above; we need to stick to what's been published in reliable sources, and use primary sources with great care (eg, never use them to 'fill in the gaps' in secondary sources in circumstances where this is controversial). In regards to the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive infobox, as I suggested on the article's talk page a while ago, if different sources say different things the two approaches for the infobox are a) to note the differing views on the outcomes of the operation (with citations) or b) simply leave this field blank, and explain the debate over the outcomes of the operation in the article. I suspect that b) is the better option here. Nick-D (talk) 00:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Yes, that would be a solution if there was a contradiction between the two sets of sources, but, except for one or two Finnish sources, there is no real contradiction. The sources I found describe the overall strategic result, while Wanderer602's sources focus on one of the many operational goals of the offensive - the invasion of southern Finland, which was not achieved. Setting the result to Strategic Soviet victory does not contradict the fact that one of the offensive's operational goals failed to be accomplished. Strategic victory in the result usually implies that it was not a total victory (see Battle of Coral Sea, Battle of Antietam, First Battle of the Marne). -YMB29 (talk) 01:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC) To make sure the information is of the correct unit i used the chronology and secondary sources which explicitly marked the which unit was located and where. Furthermore i went through the information also from top down to make sure i wouldn't be missing anything. All the sources that describe the fighting are Soviet. And once again, none of the Finnish secondary sources discussing the fighting in the Karelian Isthmus in 1941 mention it either - there are no casualties, nothing. See what Whiskey posted above. As said what you demand is a paradox. As discussed earlier WP:3 already gave its recommendation on the issue on your request and recommended leaving the result entry empty. You have refused to accept it. I don't really see what we should be discussing here, since matter has been discussed several times over with recommendation of leaving the result entry blank. None of the sources you have quoted on the talk page describe the result as 'strategic victory' - not even victory of any kind - either while your description that it would be solely Finnish view that operation was operational failure is not exactly truthful. Only one which states that war (note, not the offensive) could be considered victory also notes that offensive failed. - Wanderer602 (talk) 04:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC) So are you now claiming that only one source says that the war was a Soviet victory... Only a couple of Finnish sources say that the offensive failed (sorry, but the old Ziemke quote that was fixed in the new version of the book does not count). So these[16] sources don't prove a Soviet strategic victory? They state the strategic goal and say that the offensive accomplished it, which means that it was a strategic victory (see [17]). It was recommended that the result be blanked only if there is a contradiction between sources, but there is none as I have explained. Reliable English language sources, including books by known historians like Glantz and Erickson, say that it was a strategic victory, so there is no reason not to use that for a result (I don't like it is not a reason). -YMB29 (talk) 05:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC) There is no contradiction to the statement that operation was operational failure either you do realize that? Also you can not just go ignoring sources because you do not like them, like you are doing with Ziemke. Also none of the sources you provided states that it would have been strategic victory. Most are discussing the outcome of the war, not of the offensive, and the article is about the offensive not about the war. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC) No, the sources describe the outcome of the offensive; anyone can read them and see for themselves. There are no sources that say that the entire offensive was a failure on the operational level. I have asked for them, but none were provided. Again, the old Ziemke quote is wrong, since it was fixed in the new version of his book. This fact cannot be ignored. -YMB29 (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Hi, I'm a volunteer here at DRN. I (or another volunteer) will address the content issues later, but the finger pointing ie. "YOU did/said think X" has to stop, immediately. It's counterproductive to the process of content dispute resolution. Please refrain from continuing discussion until another volunteer (or myself) comments further. Thank you. Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 05:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC) I ask the parties to comment on this statement: As the sources see the strategic and tactic goals of the offensive differently, the result of the offensive is too controversial to be explained in a couple of words. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC) I can agree with that statement. - Wanderer602 (talk) 14:49, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Strategic and tactical goals are always different, so I am not sure what is meant by that. The result is not anymore complex or controversial than the results of the battles I listed above. The main point is if there are sources that clearly describe the overall result, why not use them? -YMB29 (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

PIGS (economics)

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by Rannpháirtí anaithnid on 08:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• PIGS (economics) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Rannpháirtí anaithnid (talk · contribs)
• Naumakos (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is to do with whether the term PIGS originally included "Ireland" or "Italy" and when Italy became associated with the term. The degree to which Wikipedia should reflect recentisms, how to arrive at WP:NPOV and whether original research should be used to resolve conflicting sources is at the heart of the dispute.

This version, introduced by Naumakos on the 15 August 2012 is, I believe, contradicted by reliable sources. The main thrust of it is as follows:

• "PIGS (also PIIGS) is an acronym used to refer to the economies of Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Since 2011, the term has included Italy, with an additional I."

The copy recommended by a third opinion is, I believe, more accurate, neutral, less reliant on recentism and more reflective of sources:

• "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. Since the financial crisis of 2008, some economists use the "I" to refer to Ireland, and the acronym PIIGS is also used to refer to both Italy and Ireland."

This is similar to a version agreed with a previous editor.

The latest version by Naumakos is no better IMO. It introduces new questions about levels of inaccuracy (e.g. "Before the financial crisis of 2008, some(?) economists used the "I" to refer to Italy...") and continues to fail to show current (and usual) use including Italy.

Sources with quotes are cited extensively on the article.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A WP:30, recommended the following:

• "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. Since the financial crisis of 2008, some economists use the "I" to refer to Ireland, and the acronym PIIGS is also used to refer to both Italy and Ireland."

How do you think we can help?

DNR was recommended by the 3O. I hope further outside views will affirm the 30's recommendation, which strikes me as fair and accurate.

Opening comments by Naumakos

Authoritative sources include Ireland, while exclude Italy:

• The Economist: "Thanks to the tight fiscal policy of Mr Berlusconi's finance minister, Giulio Tremonti, Italy has so far escaped the markets' wrath. Ireland, not Italy, is the I in the PIGS (with Portugal, Greece and Spain). Italy avoided a housing bubble; its banks did not go bust. Employment held up: the unemployment rate is 8%, compared with over 20% in Spain. The budget deficit in 2011 will be 4% of GDP, against 6% in France." (here);
• Le Figaro, "«La reprise en 2010 dépendra encore de la dépense publique», précise le chef économiste de la Coface, Yves Zlotowski. Avec le risque de creuser un peu plus les déficits. La situation est particulièrement alarmante pour les «PIGS» - Portugal, Irlande, Grèce et Espagne -, où la dette a le plus augmenté entre 2007 et 2011." (here);
• Corriere della Sera, "L’Italia non è simile ai Pigs. Piuttosto va paragonata al Belgio" "L’Italia, conclude Edwards, è stata tirata dentro la crisi in modo un po’ arbitrario." (here).

So, there is no original research. I do not understand why we should include Italy if there are important sources include Ireland. If, then, we consider that:

• Ireland received € 85 billion euro as international aid to avoid bankruptcy, while Italy did not receive even one euro;
• the interest rates of government bonds came to 24% for Ireland, 7% for Italy (few weeks);

then we conclude that Ireland has much more serious problems of Italy. From the technical point of review, PIGS include Ireland. However, several journalistic sources include Italy: in mass-media language, the term is used in promiscuous mode to include both countries. I believe that this promiscuity should be considered. So it is a mistake to include Italy (or Ireland) tout court: it would be an arbitrary choice. That's why I proposed several solutions ("PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Ireland or Italy, Greece, and Spain") or move the article to PIIGS. If PIGS was used to indicate Italy in the 90s, that meaning changed in light of the crisis of 2007, i.e. five years ago, no recentism. The phrase "Some economists" was used for the first time by User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid (here).--Naumakos (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

PIGS (economics) discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this request. The dispute resolution noticeboard is informal and nonbinding. Waiting on Naumakos' comment.--SGCM (talk) 13:18, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Will this work as a compromise? "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy or Ireland. In the 1990s, PIGS stood for Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy, but during the late 2009 European sovereign-debt crisis, Ireland replaced Italy as the I in PIGS. As the economy of Italy became affected by the crisis, I stood for either Italy or Ireland, or occasionally both." The first sentence is based on current usage of the term, in which I can stand for Italy, Ireland, or both countries, and the second sentence elaborates on the history of usage. Also, the word "some" is ambiguous and should be avoided as a weasel word.--SGCM (talk) 00:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

If I may help, I first heard the acronym from Hans Redeker, BNP Paribas's currency chief: "BNP Paribas said the so-called "PIGS" (Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain) are dragging down the trade performance of the bloc." May 2008 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/2790810/Euro-suffering-from-reserve-currency-curse-as-investors-pull-out.html. Months later, the Financial Times, "Pigs in muck" Septembre 1, 2008. "Exciting countries get exciting acronyms, at least in financial circles. Fast-growing Brazil, Russia, India and China, for example, are called Brics, the very initials implying solid growth. Other countries are less fortunate. Take Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain, sometimes described as the Pigs. It is a pejorative moniker but one with much truth." Ireland crashed about 2009. --Robertiki (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The European sovereign-debt crisis began in 2009, which was when Ireland became part of PIGS (CNBC 2009, BBC 2010, Telegraph 2009. Before the Eurocrisis in 2009, the I in PIGS was exclusively Italy.--SGCM (talk) 03:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I just wanted to note that it seams that PIGS is a part of an older set of mnemonic acronyms: BAFFLING PIGS and DUKS (BAFFLING = Belgium, Austria, Finland, France, Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands and Germany; PIGS = Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. DUKS = Denmark, United Kingdom, and Sweden). Search for "BUFFLING PIGS" didn't return me any sources stating I in PIGS to be Ireland. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Before the Eurocrisis, the I in PIGS only stood for Italy. It was during the beginning of the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009 that some sources began referring to I as Ireland and not Italy. Initially, the crisis didn't spread to Italy, thus it was excluded.--SGCM (talk) 03:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I broadly agree with most of what is stated above in this section. The question is finding the right words to express it.

A point I'd pick up on in SGCM's suggestion is, "As the economy of Italy became affected by the crisis..." For one thing, it's difficult to put an actual reasoning behind the term. But in any case, there was never a break in Italy's association with the term over the period. Example from 2009:

"The greatest problems, in the short term at least, are in the four Mediterranean economies known as the PIGS - Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. ... The drachma, the lira, the peseta and the Portuguese escudo (and the Irish punt - Ireland can be regarded as an honorary PIG) will all make a return as the PIGS plunge for the exit."

Examples from 2008 and 2010 are in the article.

For me, that's the substantive point. Use has always included Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. The association with Ireland, important as it is to state, is less permanent in character and has been seen that way from the get-go. (And without wanting to engage in WP:CRYSTAL balling, the association is already waning e.g. 2011, 2012 and others in the article.) So, for me, wording like what existed before Naumakos or like what was suggested by the 3O are more accurate and balanced in perspective and avoids over scripting the article from the perspective of recent events. --RA (talk) 08:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that PIGS has two senses. The first, and most prominent sense, is that it refers southern European countries with similar economic environments (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). The second, refers to countries that caused the Eurocrisis (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain). If I recall from reading news articles in 2009, the crisis did not initially spread to Italy, hence it was excluded. As the Economist article states, "Italy avoided a housing bubble; its banks did not go bust. Employment held up: the unemployment rate is 8%, compared with over 20% in Spain. The budget deficit in 2011 will be 4% of GDP, against 6% in France." The inclusion of Ireland is becoming less common because Italy's economic troubles today are much worse than they were three years ago. It was the Eurocrisis that popularized the term (even if was coined much earlier), so the Eurocrisis sense of the acronym does not qualify as a recentism. Italy, unlike the other four countries, did not initiate the Eurocrisis.--SGCM (talk) 09:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It's interesting you use the term "caused the bailout". That reflects a lot of what the Bastasin reference in the article says, which has the measure of it IMO. I think the substance of what you are saying about there being "two senses" is right, though.

There is the original meaning (which is still the primary meaning IMO) of it standing for the southern countries. In that sense, it is a pejorative term referring to (perceived) similarities of their economies. And there is the more recent sense, which is "to blame, isolate, and shame the weakest", as the Bastasin reference puts it, in light of the crisis. Hence Ireland's inclusion and why too Ireland, as it redeems itself, would be less associated with the term (e.g. the Economists "PIG no more?" article, etc.) in that sense.

Teasing those two senses apart in a definite way would be difficult. But maybe a way to begin doing so would be to avoid stating the members of the term in the first line and instead give a chronology e.g.

PIGS is an acronym used in the economics of Europe. Since the mid-1990s, the term has referred to the southern economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the financial crisis from 2008, the term was popularised as a way to refer to economies perceived as being weak. In particular, some economists used the "I" to refer to Ireland, or the acronym PIIGS to include to both Italy and Ireland, among other variants.

--RA (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it's the primary meaning, especially now, with Italy's economy dragged further into the Eurocrisis. Your proposal, which represents both senses in the lead, is an excellent compromise. However, "crisis from 2008" should be substituted with "European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009," and "perceived as being weak" should be elaborated upon. Perhaps "perceived as being the impetus to the crisis"?--SGCM (talk) 12:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Taking as examples sources that say that PIGS includes Italy is useless, because many other sources include Ireland:

• BBC (here);
• Acronym finder (here): in this source is stated that PIGS, in its economic meaning, includes Ireland, while Italy may be indicated only "out" of economic significance;

The term PIGS was born in the language of the mass media (a language, however, which is not free from various imperfections, especially in a technical field such as economics) and we should consider all sources. So, it is necessary to avoid sophisticated techniques: we should indicate the promiscuity of the term PIGS and follow the first proposal: "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy or Ireland. In the 1990s, PIGS stood for Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy, but during the late 2009 European sovereign-debt crisis, Ireland replaced Italy as the I in PIGS. As the economy of Italy became affected by the crisis, I stood for either Italy or Ireland, or occasionally both." - "Some economists": User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid, you said that it was a wrong expression!--Naumakos (talk) 19:59, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Acronym finder is not a reliable source. And doesn't Rannpháirtí anaithnid's proposal basically convey the same concepts? The only difference is in the wording.--SGCM (talk) 05:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps this will work? I think this is a compromise both parties can agree to:

PIGS is an acronym used to describe the economies of Europe, specifically the economies of Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy or Ireland. Since the mid-1990s, the term has referred to the southern economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009, the term was popularised as a way to refer to economies perceived as causing the crisis, including Ireland but sometimes excluding Italy, where the crisis had yet to spread. As the crisis has gotten larger in scope, economists have used the "I" to refer to Italy or Ireland, or the acronym PIIGS to include to both Italy and Ireland, among other variants.

It describes both senses, and their historical context.--SGCM (talk) 05:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

SGCM, I'm fine with your suggestions at 09:56, 27 August 2012. I'm a little cautious about saying these economies were the "impetus to the crisis" without further explanation, only because I can't see a RS that put it as baldly as that (mainly they would talk about these countries being heavily indebted, etc.)

I'm not fine with Naumakos' suggestion. If the first line is to present anything, it should present the primary meaning (which is Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). I also do not see a time when Italy was ever "excluded" from the term. Even the BBC source cited above says, "Some analysts use PIIGS to include Italy - Europe's longstanding biggest debtor." Plenty of other sources from the same time, solely give Italy.

How about the following:

PIGS is an acronym used in European economics. Since the mid-1990s, the term has referred to the southern economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009, the term was popularised as a way to refer to heavily-indebted economies, perceived as having been the imputes for the crisis. In this sense, the term included Ireland (and for a short time other economies), sometimes in place of Italy, and sometimes as PIIGS.

I think this captures everything everyone wants to say, without presenting any one variety as the The Truth™. --RA (talk) 08:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe that full wording is the essential part of any acronym's definition, so giving the current wording in the first sentence is necessary. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:53, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I would normally agree. As I wrote, "If the first line is to present anything, it should present the primary meaning (which is Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain)." That was the situation before Naumakos and was the suggestion of 3O too.

See the revision here, which presents the acronym and its variants succinctly over two sentences. --RA (talk) 10:05, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I would note that right now the primary meaning seem to be the most recent one. The acronym is now used ways more frequently then before the crisis, and most people are going to look for the meaning of the word they came across in yesterdays' paper, TV show, etc. I just see no reason to make them scan through the rest of the lede, and I think many simply would stop at the first variant they hint. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

So what is the most recent one?

If the word had a single, clear, current meaning it would be easy. However, sometime circa. 2008 this word became a little muddied and doesn't have a single, clear, current meaning. I would still say, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain is the primary meaning. With Ireland being an "honourary" member as the Mail put it. That's how the balance of reliable sources would appear to treat it.

I don't think two sentences is too much of a burden for a reader to get a picture of the term, its origins, current meanings and how it has changed.

My main concern is that Naumakos' edits downplay Italy's association with the term (e.g. if "Before the financial crisis of 2008, some economists used the "I" to refer to Italy", what did the other economists use the "I" to refer to before 2008? And there is no mention of PIGS, one I, as referring to Italy during the crisis). That doesn't reflect use of the term either now or in the past. --RA (talk) 14:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the most recent meaning is "Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy or Irland (or both)". It seems to me that fine-tuning the latest proposal by Naumakos may be more productive then altering the structure of the draft with each new revision. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

OK. It doesn't do any harm. Here's a merge:

PIGS is an acronym that refers to Portugal, Greece, Spain, and either Italy or Ireland (or both). First coined in the mid-1990s, the term originally referred to the southern European economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009, the term was popularised as a way to refer to heavily-indebted economies, perceived as having been the imputes for the crisis. In this sense, the term sometimes included Ireland (and for a short time other economies), sometimes in place of Italy, and sometimes as PIIGS.

--RA (talk) 15:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

This version could benefit from some copy-edit, but it seems to address the issue in full. If Naumakos has no problems with it, I would be happy to close the case as resolved and leave the further tweaking of style to talk page discussion. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest removing "(and for a short time other economies)" because it really was only Ireland that was added to PIGS during the crisis. There should also be an explanation of why Italy isn't included in some 2009 uses of the acronym (the crisis did not initially spread to Italy).--SGCM (talk) 19:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree on the phrase in parenthesis, but are you sure that the details about Italy in 2009 indeed belong to the lede? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's mentioned in the Economist article as the reason why the I in PIGS changed from Italy to Ireland (Italy was not yet affected by the crisis, Ireland was).--SGCM (talk) 21:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear: are you sure that this information belongs to the lede, not to the section of the article? Sure, this information is verified, but (given that the article is devoted to the abbreviation) the lede is already close to being a complete encyclopedic description of the tern, not the brief summary it is supposed to be. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

No problem with removing the parenthesised stuff about other countries. It is addressed in the article.

I'd tend to agree with Dmitrij about leaving the details re: Italy to later the article. The details of it can be better treated there. The addition of Ireland (in place of Italy) and the reasons for it are something that deserves a section for its own in the article. A positive outcome of this dispute is that there are now several RS in the article that address the question. --RA (talk) 22:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Bulgaria

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Ximhua on 04:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Bulgaria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ximhua (talk · contribs)
• WilliamThweatt (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Should 681 AD be added as Establishment date for Bulgaria in the Info box

Sources:

Encyclopedia Britanica

Bulgaria, Indiana University, 1987, p. 53

Erik Kooper (2006), The Medieval Chronicle V, p. 97

R. J. Crampton (2005), A Concise History Of Bulgaria, Cambridge University Press, p. 9

Francisco Rodríguez Adrados (2005), A History of the Greek Language, BRILL, p. 265

M. Avrum Ehrlich (2008), Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora, ABC-CLIO, p. 954

Juliet Lodge (2010), The 2009 Elections to the European Parliament, Palgrave MacMillan, p. 60

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

It was discussed on Talk page, at the request for mediation I was advised to try DRN again.

How do you think we can help?

Review the sources provided and advise if 681 AD is indeed internationally recognized as foundation date for Bulgaria. If so, then it should be in the info box.

Opening comments by WilliamThweatt

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Bulgaria discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

• Hi, I'm a volunteer here at DRN. I looked at the talk page and there hasn't been any sustained discussion there since the previous mediation request was closed. I really think you should give that another go first - the second thing is that the mediation request was declined as all didn't sign on to participate. Has that changed? Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 04:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The dispute is between me and WilliamThweatt, I've initiated this here as the talk page doesn't seem to be productive and I'm really hoping that in a mediated environment as this one, we'll reach out a solution faster. I really don't see the point to go back to the talk page, as it moves away from a fact based discussion. As Wikipedia is encyclopedic content and not a forum, can you help lead us to a solution please? Ximhua (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm another regular volunteer here at DRN. What I actually see at the mediation page is that they recommended an RFC, not a return to DRN. However, I also see that you listed a RFC at the RFC request board on August 9, but then (not unreasonably) removed it when it had not been processed into an active RFC by August 25. It appears to me that the use of the request board for requesting RFC's seems to be not working very well at the moment. Could I suggest that you try again to request an RFC using the regular method for requesting an RFC? In your request, which ought to be placed at Talk:Bulgaria#Sovereignty_dates_in_the_Infobox, you might include a link to the prior DRN discussion on this issue. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I would've done an RFC, but I feel it will be better if the environment is moderated, as spirits run high on this simple topic apparently. Thus, would you kindly consider helping resolve this under DRN? Thanks! Ximhua (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I think it'd help if all editors involved were willing to participate. We can't really be of much help if half of those involved in the dispute aren't willing to come to the table. Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 02:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi! I'm yet another volunteer at DRN. I would do the RfC, as you were told to do, but since it hasn't worked out for you, I see why you thought to try DRN. I also see, much as Steven has, that not all of the involved are participating, It is critical in a DRN case that all of the involved participate so there is fair discussion and a conclusion can be reached with everyone getting "their side of the story" in. There isn't much more I have to offer than reiterate what Steven has said about not having a sustained discussion on the talk page before coming here. I'm not seeing one. Could you give me a link to that discussion? Thank you.  Joe  ₪  13:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I would note that WilliamThweatt wasn't notified of this discussion. I notified him. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying WilliamThweatt, I thought the system will notify him. The issue with involving many editors is that last time this was done (Request for mediation), the editors were invited, then they didn't participate and the request for mediation was rejected, as editors didn't participate, so it is a bit of catch 22. I welcome other editor's participation, as long as they do participate and that their lack of participation is not used as grounds to reject the request. Ximhua (talk) 23:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Enver Čolaković

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by PRODUCER on 21:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Enver Čolaković (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• PRODUCER (talk · contribs)
• Wüstenfuchs (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This dispute is over which language (Bosnian or Croatian) Enver Čolaković wrote in and can be read here for more background. Let me preface this with stating that Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin are considered by linguists to all be a single Serbo-Croatian language and that these new separate names are motivated by nationalism. Having said that I have provided a source in which Čolaković himself states he wrote in Bosnian: "I started writing Legend with a specific purpose, to preserve our Bosnian language. Not the language of confessions or nations in Bosnia, but the language of Bosnia." On the other hand Wüstenfuchs suggests that he wrote in Croatian language (something which Čolaković himself never claimed in any capacity) and cites a Croatian book on "Who is who in the Independent State of Croatia". I repeatedly told him that "each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context" and that the claim he spoke Croatian is the personal opinion of the book's author. However, the discussion went in circles and ended with him rambling on about Hitler and Jews.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussed for a while and were unable to reach any conclusion and is currently at a standstill.

How do you think we can help?

Focus the discussion on the relevant policies and guidelines.

Opening comments by Wüstenfuchs

Ok, now. I never denied he wrote in Bosnian, that's first. But he also wrote in Croatian. Second, there is other source mentioned in my talk page. Third, your own judgment is to say that various oppinions on language are nationalistic, and you might insult many people who think otherwise. Nevertheless, there are two sources on my talk page, one is in the article. You started a discussion about logical fallacy and a day before you removed a sourced information. The reason why everything ended on "Hitler and Jews" was because I was explaining your fallacy. The book Who is Who in the Independent State of Croatia is a biographical book published in 1998, as I recall, and has nothing to do with the fascist state, but it would be completely different thing if you are linking a current Croatian state with the fascists. --Wüstenfuchs 21:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Enver Čolaković discussion

Can the parties elaborate the arguments against using Serbo-Croatian as the name of the language? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Some linguists say it's the same language other say no. But the question is very complex. Croatian literature is a literature written in Croatian language (or Croaitan standard if you wish), it's the reason why Čolaković is part of it. Serbo-Croatian would mean completely different thing. The best solution would be to keep both, Bosnian and Croatian. For example, some well known writers aren't part of the Croatian literature as they wrote in Serbian language, if it was a same language we would now have a one literature insted of three. Some raise this standarditaion to language, other don't. The best solution, as I think, would be to keep both Bosnian and Croatian as stated. --Wüstenfuchs 02:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I had no objections to that. In fact it was my first suggestion. No it really isn't "very complex" and the "languages" are all mutually intelligible. Wüstenfuchs, you still have not produced a source that Čolaković considering himself to be writing in Croatian while we do have one of him explicitly considering himself to be writing in Bosnian. "If it was same language we would now have a one literature insted of three", this whole "separate literature" matter (really just finding people, compiling them in a book, and saying they're "ours") is fueled by nationalism and politics and that reasoning would not stand up in the field of linguistics.

In response to the opening comments. It isn't my judgement. One only needs to read the lede of the Serbo-Croatian article to get the gist what's going on. I removed the "sourced information" only after you did not respond to my comment despite being active so I assumed consensus per WP:SILENCE. Also simply adding "sourced information" is not a bulletproof reason for it stay especially when the source supporting the info is not "carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context". The same goes for the other source, a school book, where you're citing the opinion of the book writer for something where Čolaković's opinion is already available. I did not start "a discussion about logical fallacy" I merely pointed out the flaw in thinking that because he didn't deny writing Croatian that that somehow supports the notion that he wrote in it. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 12:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, could the parties comment on the following statement: Within the period of author's activity the naming conventions for languages in Yugoslavia were unstable, and they are still not universally accepted now. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The official language in SR Croatia was Croatian and his books were published by Matica hrvatska, he was member of the Croatian Society of Writers, we have two soruces stating he wrote in Croatian, the other saying he translated Sinko (a Hungarian writer) into Croatian. For your quote of Čolaković, PRODUCER, he only stated that he wrote the Legend in order to preserve the Bosnian language, but what about other books? He didn't wanted to preserve the Bosnian language? Let me also note that Bosnian didn't existed at the time, which led me to conclusion that writer was talking about specific dialect beign spoken in Bosnia and Herzegovina's region of Bosnia. Croatian language (or standard) has its rulles (ijekavian dialect, infinitive endings etc) so it's a big difference. Linguists agree that grammatical difference between Croatian and for example Serbian is 35%, so it's either, Croatian od Serbian or Bosnian literature. What PRODUCER is doing is the original research. He assumed that Čolaković wrote all of his books in Bosnian even though he published, worked and lived in Croatia's Zagreb and was member of Matica hrvatska and Croatian Society of Writers. I don't see a problem with Bosnian and Croatian standing together, however, PRODUCER saw this as my "croatization" of certaion persons. --Wüstenfuchs 14:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure that the official language of Croatia was Croatian before 1974? To my knowledge it was right the opposite, and as Enver Čolaković died in 1976, we can safely state that official language in the time he was writing was Serbo-Croatian.

But it is not of much relevance anyway, as the arguments you draw can't be used per WP:SYNTH. The only source on the question — a book you cited in user talk page discussion — is subject to reasonable concerns over WP:NPOV, so I see no sources in favor of Bosnian, Croatian or both.

That said, the majority viewpoint seems to be that Serbo-Croatian includes both Bosnian and Croatian (either as languages within macrolanguage or as variants within language), so this choice seems to be less controversial.

This conclusion is particularly obvious to me as a person who moved to former Yugoslavia after its dissolution, but at the same time my opinion may be biased, so I retire from this case and leave it to someone with no affiliation with former Yugoslavia. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:10, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

We should also consider that he was an active writer during the Independent State of Croatia. But nevertheless, there was also Declaration on the Status and Name of the Croatian Literary Language signed also by the Society of Croatian Writers in 1967, of which Čolaković was a member. There is no reason to exclude Croatian or Bosnian, both language should remain as languages in which Čolaković wrote his books. --Wüstenfuchs 15:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Czarkoff, please see Serbo-Croatian's history (specifically between 1940s-1970s) for an explanation to your above statement.

"we have two soruces stating he wrote in Croatian" Still completely ignoring if the sources are "reliable for the statement being made" and if they are the "best such source for that context".

"his books were published by Matica hrvatska" Yes, his book "Legend" was also published by Matica hrvatska and we know what he said regarding that book. Please stop relying on your own personal conclusions and trying to connect dots to your liking. The fact they are published there does not mean they are in Croatian.

"Linguists agree that grammatical difference between Croatian and for example Serbian is 35%" All linguists agree that it's "35%"? All of them? Really? Also why not 39% or 46% while figures are being pulled out of thin air?

"Bosnian didn't existed at the time, which led me to conclusion that writer was talking about specific dialect" Officiality in government does not determine whether a language exists or does not. Simply because these standards have the status of "official language" in government does not mean they are any more in existence or more authentic than they were in the past. And again the man specifically said "jezik" (language) and not "dijalekt" (dialect).

"He assumed that Čolaković wrote all of his books in Bosnian" I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself: "you claim he wrote in Croatian yet you have no evidence of him saying that he did in ANY capacity while on the other hand it's been established that he said that he wrote in Bosnian (regardless of whether you interpret it to be one book or many)". For someone trying to be portrayed as loving to write in Croatian it's a bit odd he never said he actually wrote in it, but did say he wrote in Bosnian.

As for the Croatization bit, it's hard not believe that your pushing it when these diffs exist: [18][19]. This also isn't the first individual. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 15:24, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Neither he said he wrote all his books in Bosnian. For example, do we need a writer stating he wrote in specific languages? If so, then we should remove German and Hungarian, and we should remove the iformation that Hermann Hesse wrote in German, he acctualy never stated he did, as I recall. Where is the problem for leaving both languages in the infobox? Btw, the fact about the "35%" was published by Croat linguists, you might find it on Google search if you wish. Nevertheless, with so much dispute and disagreement about the language, we shouldn't add SC, but I think the best solution would be to leave the page as it is. --Wüstenfuchs 16:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

So, the parties agree to "Bosnian, Croatian, German and Hungarian"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

No. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 17:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't know about PRODUCER, but I do. --Wüstenfuchs 17:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, let me also note that the same page from where you took Čolaković's quote also states he wrote in Croatian: http://www.envercolakovic.com/madarskalirika.htm ("Trojezičan od djetinjstva (mađarski, njemački i hrvatski), Enver Čolaković radi, uz svoj bogati književni opus, dvije antologije mađarske i austrijske poezije"). Besides, various sources say he wrote and translated in Croatian. I won't object including Bosnian but still, to many sources that support the information he wrote in Croatian can't be simply ignored. Also his novel the Legend about Ali Pasha was awarded as "the best Croatian novel" in 1943. I hope this might help also - [20]. His book published by the Islamic Community in Zagreb (who are Bosniaks) states he wrote in Croatian (last page, bio). --Wüstenfuchs 21:54, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

What Čolaković said himself in the actual 1971 interview with Enes Čengić for World magazine is the source. Wustenfuchs you are either unwilling or simply unable to differentiate whose opinion it is that's being cited and for what or the fact that Čolaković's opinion and the opinion of what others think years after his death are two different things. Yes, "Legend", the novel which he specifically stated he wrote in Bosnian was awarded the "best Croatian novel", your point being? As for the Islamic Community in Zagreb source (the fact that you're assuming they are Bosniaks simply because they are Muslims is entirely irrelevant), like your other sources, is again not "reliable for the statement being made" nor the "best such source for that context". -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 23:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Čolaković wasn't speaking about all of his novels, only the Legend. And the Legend being awarded "the best Croatian novel" speaks for it self. Think that a novel, writen in Chinese becomes the best German novel. All sources cited are relibale sources, it's your own oppinion they aren't. And Čolaković's membership in the Society of Croatian Translators and Society of Croatian Writers also speaks for itself. Do you claim that he translated Sinko in Bosnian while he was member of the Society of Croatian Translators? --Wüstenfuchs 00:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually if my Russian-language works will be awarded as "the best Croatian articles", they won't become written or even translated to Croatian. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

But they wouldn't be awared "the best Croatian articles", Russian yes, but not Croatian. --Wüstenfuchs 12:04, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that nobody knows that for sure. Specifically for the works written in Serbo-Croatian or Bosnian "languages" that is 35% different from Croatian for Croatian linguists and is indistinguishable for most part of the remaining world. Furthermore, as the language affairs are motivated politically by far more then linguistically, "the best Croatian book" award says something only about those giving it, not about those receiving it. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'l give you a point to think about until any more objective volunteer joins this discussion: Čolaković lived at the time when (1) the official language was Serbo-Croatian and (2) the status of Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Serbo-Croatian languages was a topic of numerous political discussions and events, but unlike most of contemporary writers he didn't explicitly state his position. Does that indicate anything to you? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 08:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

He also wrote when the official language was Croatian during the Independent State of Croatia when he wrote his best novel... My point is that Croatian language shouldn't be moved as it was one of the languages used by Čolaković. PRODUCER states it's fallacy when I say he wrote in Croatian but Čolaković himself never said he did, but if so we should remove every language and we should remove languages of vast majority of writers, as many of them never said they wrote in certain languages. But nevertheless, modern literature always speaks of him as Croatian writer who wrote in Croatian, not Serbo-Croatian but Croatian. Any book, you may search everywhere. For example here, his book was published in 1970 in Croatian. --Wüstenfuchs 12:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Which he said he wrote in Bosnian and I already told you that officiality of language in government means nothing. He's "reliable for the statement being made" and the "best such source for this context". -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 12:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Croatian should remain. As you may see, rest of the books were writen in Croaitan also. --Wüstenfuchs 12:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

No, they were described as being written in Croatian, which may demonstrate that they indeed are written in Croatian, or that the publisher is saying they are written in Croatian in order to enforce his political position the way he can. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

No, that's not the case because Čolaković's book published in Sarajevo by Sarajevo Publishing in 1997 ([21]) was also writen in Croatian. --Wüstenfuchs 18:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Has it really stooped to a library catalog as being represented as some authorative source? [22] --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 18:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, scroll down. Nevertheless, the libary catalogue that I provided is of the Yale University. --Wüstenfuchs 18:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

This link actually shows that he wrote in a language that is considered Croatian, Bosnian or Serbian depending on archive where it was categorized. That is not exactly an argument in favor of any particular language. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 19:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

We should also consider that Čolaković wrote for number of newspapers in Croatian language. You may see those in the article. As I said, I agree we leave both Bos and Cro. --Wüstenfuchs 18:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Luigi di Bella

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Robertiki on 16:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Luigi di Bella (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Robertiki (talk · contribs)
• Yobol (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I am uneasy about some information removal, and not sure (don't understand) the justifications from the cancel party.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Opened one talk page: "Parallel studies" and followed up in the talk page "Books" with request for explanation about more cancellations.

How do you think we can help?

Explain me where I am wrong, if I am wrong, anche if not, explain to Yobol that some of the information he as cancelled should be restored.

Opening comments by Yobol

Summary of dispute, since original poster did not give enough information for outside input to be useful:

There seem to be two different disputes: 1) Robertiki wishes to use this source in the article about di Bella. A quick scan of this source shows no mention of di Bella, so mention of this source would seem to be WP:OR. Talk page discussion about this can be found here.

2) Robertiki objected to my removal of a list of published works by di Bella (see diff here). My main objection to such lists is that Wikipedia is not a CV; we can certainly discuss di Bella's works if they have received significant coverage in independent reliable sources. However, I object to the apparently arbitrary list of di Bella's works if they have not been noted to be significant, per WP:UNDUE. Review of possibly relevant guidelines for guidance in such cases have not been helpful, so further input on this from outside editors is appreciated. Yobol (talk) 02:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Luigi di Bella discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

I think we can open it for discussion. Just a couple points before.

• I cannot get past the paywall for Combined effects of melatonin and all-trans retinoic acid and somatostatin on breast cancer cell proliferation and death: Molecular basis for the anticancer effect of these molecules, so could someone send a copy by email?
• A source about Di Bella that has no mention of di Bella isn't nessesarily Original research, although it might be.

~~Ebe123~~ → report 11:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I can confirm the source doesn't mention Bella. The addition here: [23] on the basis of that reference is original research (this doesn't mean anything for other references, just this one). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, can't help with the full text. But I found a reference that makes a connection with Di Bella to that research: https://www.medify.com/insights/article/22532966/combined-effects-of-melatonin-and-all-trans-retinoic-acid-and-somatostatin-on-breast-cancer-cell-proliferation-and-death-molecular-basis-for-the-anticancer-effect-of-these-molecules where I read, under "Similar Articles": "Evaluation of an unconventional cancer treatment (the Di Bella multitherapy): results of phase II trials in Italy. Italian Study Group for the Di Bella Multitherapy Trails.", which is a link to: https://www.medify.com/insights/article/9915729/evaluation-of-an-unconventional-cancer-treatment-the-di-bella-multitherapy-results-of-phase-ii-trials-in-italy-italian-study-group-for-the-di-bella-multitherapy-trails?ref=related --Robertiki (talk) 16:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

See, the fact that these works are considered similar doesn't make this research related to that of di Bella (or Di Bella?). If the work speculated on his research, it could be used in the article in some way, but it doesn't; thus it doesn't belong to the article about di Bella (or Di Bella?). That said, it might find its place in the article about the topic it belongs to, if it is needed there. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

An automated algorithm for some website suggesting one is related to the other isn't enough. Secondary sources like academic review articles making the link between the papers is what is needed, otherwise it is original research. On wikipedia we can't accept original research (see WP:NOR). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

CBS Records

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Steelbeard1 on 11:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• CBS Records (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Steelbeard1 (talk · contribs)
• Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An editor wants to insert excessive info about a former incarnation of CBS Records which is now called Sony Music and has its own article. I tried a compromise of creating a new article about called CBS Records International which I hope will work.

No it has not. Norton reverted again AFTER the request to post his comments to this noticeboard was posted on his own talk age.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Create a new article called CBS Records International

How do you think we can help?

By telling us if there can be one article which talks about two unrelated subjects with the same name.

Opening comments by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

There are 1,300 incoming internal links for the business entity known as "CBS Records" which was in operation starting about 1960 or 1961. In 1988 Sony bought CBS Records and was required to change the name to Sony Music Entertainment in 1991. CBS Records International is not a synonym for CBS Records, each division had their own president. The New York Times reports "Mr. Yetnikoff was instrumental in the sale of CBS Records to Sony in January 1988 for $2 billion. ... Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." This shows that CBS Records International is not the same as CBS Records. Billboard describes the function of CBS Records in the following way: "CBS Records, under [Clive] Davis who had been administrative vice-president of Columbia Records, will continue to produce and market the Columbia, Epic, Harmony, Date, and Okeh record lines and the Columbia Legacy Collection. ..." This shows that CBS Records is not the same as Columbia Records, yet Steele has been changing links from CBS Records to Columbia Records despite the reliable source using CBS Records. By changing the names of these business entities to imperfect synonyms we are causing semantic drift in Wikipedia. We are substituting in subsidiaries and sister business entities and making subtle changes to what the reliable sources are using as the correct business name. Think of it as saying that Andrew Johnson wrote the Emancipation Proclamation instead of Abraham Lincoln. That would be obvious as incorrect to most people, but that is what we are doing here. Consensus was developed on the talk page to use the terms as they appear in the reliable sources such as Billboard and the New York Times but Steel reverted the consensus changes because he feels that a quorum was required to make changes and that the three day period allotted for consensus was insufficient. The changes he made today were unilateral, first by reverting the consensus changes three times and then unilaterally breaking up the article into new entities by cut and paste which lost the contribution history. You can see more of the discussion that caused the lockdown of the article for three days here. He is not backing up his claims with quotes from reliable sources but with his own original research. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:52, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

What we need is for someone to walk back the cut and paste changes that were made by Steel and restore the articles histories that were damaged. We need the articles back to where we had consensus on the talk page so we can make changes from there. CBS Records ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Sony Music Entertainment. All existed at different times with different assets. All the automotive companies that have been absorbed by General Motors retain their own articles to preserve the incoming links, while still maintaining a section in the chronology of the current entity. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Steelbeard1

CBS Records International was Columbia Records' international arm founded in 1962 to release recordings on the CBS label as EMI's Columbia Graphophone Company unit owned the Columbia Records trademark outside North America. The "CBS Records" entity Norton is referring to was officially renamed Sony Music Entertainment on January 1, 1991. CBS Records was the name of both the record company and the record label. The record label was also officially renamed Columbia Records in 1991 after Sony acquired the rights to the trademark from EMI. Norton still does not understand that the history of the CBS Records company prior to 1991 properly belongs in the Sony Music article. I have created a compromise solution by creating a CBS Records disambig page. The purpose of disambig pages, of course, is to direct readers to the correct article and to alert editors whose wikilinks go to the wrong article to correct the link(s). I've been doing that since the 2006 CBS Records article was created. I've also had to do this regarding links to Columbia Records which should go to the unaffiliated former EMI label of the same name called Columbia Graphophone Company. The current CBS Records (2006) is not affiliated with any former CBS Records entity that is currently owned by Sony Music and therefore requires a separate article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

CBS Records discussion

Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this request. The dispute resolution noticeboard is informal and nonbinding. Waiting on Richard Arthur Norton's comment.--SGCM (talk) 11:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• Hi! I'm also a DRN volunteer and will be assisting SGCM in mediating this dispute. Electric Catfish 16:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, I'm going to be opening this dispute now. Electric Catfish 13:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• You asked us to tell you if you can make 1 article about 2 unrelated subjects with the same name. Usually, if 2 people share the same name, the name is made into a disambiguation page and the articles have the name followed by what the person is in parentheses. For example, Joseph West is a disambiguation page, and it lists different Joe Wests. The umpire's page is called Joe West (umpire), while the ex-governor's page is called Joseph West (Governor) . Any other questions? Electric Catfish 13:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

That answers my question. A CBS Records disambig page has been started. The CBS Records article currently redirects to the disambig page. Any attempt by Norton to revert to the article he created will be immediately reverted back to the disambig page. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

So, if it's okay with Norton, I'm going to mark this dispute for a review by another DRN volunteer who will close it. Electric Catfish 15:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello! I'm another DRN volunteer and I endorse this resolution. Still, I would prefer to hear from Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) before closing this case. I notified him. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem still is CBS Records ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Columbia Records. The New York Times reports: "Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." So we have concurrent presidents of each entity. We now have 1,300 incoming links to a disambiguation page instead of the proper entity "CBS Records" headed by Clive Davis. Business organizations are complex so we have to go with the reliable sources and not unreferenced original research. Clive Davis held multiple positions including heading Columbia Records. These changes should not have been made while Dispute resolution was going on here. They should not have been made against consensus at the CBS Records talk page. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Norton STILL DOES NOT GET IT. The CBS Records which Mr. Yetnikoff headed no longer goes by that name, it goes by the name Sony Music Entertainment. The CBS Records International article was created because it has its own history that goes back to 1960 when the American Columbia Records wanted to take control of their international distribution. Again, the reason for disambig pages is to aid in correcting Wikilinks that go to the wrong article. Remember that the company headed by Clive Davis is the 1960s and 1970s NOW goes by the Sony Music name, NOT CBS Records. So the corrected wikilink would be [[Sony Music|CBS Records]] and, despite what Norton stated, THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS as Norton could not wait for the time period required for consensus to develop which could take weeks. There were only THREE VOTES TOTAL regarding what to do with the CBS Records article. Norton has to face the cold, hard facts, that the incorrect wikilinks must be corrected article by article. But I'm sure the editors of the articles can easily fix the wikilinks to go to the correct article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Question for Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Steelbeard1 explained his understanding of timeline of companies with "CBS Records" pattern in their names. Could you please state your version of timeline as precisely as possible? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not arguing that the timeline is wrong. Let me explain, I started editing when I clicked on a link to "CBS Records" and was brought to the article that is now called CBS Records (2006) and realized it was incorrect. I checked and found ~1,300 back links that were landing on an incorrect page. My argument is that "CBS Records" ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Columbia Records ≠ Sony Music Entertainment. Sony Music Entertainment = "CBS Records" + assets from EMI. The problem is that wikipedia:consensus was established at Talk:CBS Records (2006) (please read it) to have the 1,300 incoming links land at "CBS Records" which had the history of that business entity up until it was sold to Sony and had a list of the presidents of the company and how the company fit into the larger CBS Corporation and how it fit into "CBS - Columbia Group", the operating group within CBS. We do that for all historic companies even when they are sold to other conglomerates. We still have articles on all the companies that became General Motors and we also have their history in the larger article on General Motors. An administrator locked the article for three days for consensus to develop and it was decided two-to-one that we would have the incoming links land at "CBS Records" with a short history of that business entity as it existed from 1960 to 1991. Steel has argued that we did not have a quorum for the consensus and that the three days allotted was not sufficient. He reverted the consensus three times and split the article with cutting and pasting which lost the article history. He is also changing the 1,300 incoming links against consensus to what he thinks the reliable source should have used as the business entity, such as Columbia Records. We have to use what the reliable source uses unless it was retracted or can be proved with other reliable sources that it was incorrect. In summary: "CBS Records" ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Columbia Records ≠ Sony Music Entertainment. Sony Music Entertainment = CBS Records as it was in 1988 + assets from EMI + additional assets added later. We have to use the exact terms or risk semantic drift. We should not be substituting in imprecise synonyms such as a subsidiary or a sister business group. Wikipedia is about using the term that is used by reliable sources, Steel is using his own knowledge to substitute in what he thinks is the correct business entity, arguing that the reliable sources are wrong. I want him to stop making changes that go against consensus and stick to the terms used by the reliable sources. He is also showing bad faith by continuing to change the incoming links when asked to wait until a decision was made here as to whether to override consensus, or to reaffirm the consensus from the talk page. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

There is only one entity calling itself CBS Records today, the company founded in 2006. That's why the disambig page was created so the erroneous link could be corrected using the instructions given above. Those "reliable sources" Norton mentioned were correct at the time of their publication but became outdated after 1990 when the CBS Records label was renamed Columbia Records and the CBS Records company renamed Sony Music on January 1, 1991. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• As best as I can sum things up tersely: Steel argues that we already have an article called Sony Music Entertainment, the current conglomerate, so we do not need an article on the earlier incarnation called "CBS Records". My argument is that we do need it because we have 1,300 incoming links to it. He argues all we have to do is change the 1,300 incoming links to Sony Music Entertainment or to Columbia Records or to CBS Records International or some other close synonym. Consensus was to preserve them since they were precise and the substitutions were less precise and were based on original research. To get his way Steel has reverted back to his version four times before consensus here where it was brought up at 3RR and he has reverted an additional three times after consensus was formed on the talk page to preserve the 1,300 incoming links. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

How many times do I have to say that the only entity that exists today which calls itself CBS Records is the one founded in 2006. All other entities go by other names, so the 1,300 or so incoming links need to be fixed. I've done about 100 or so of them already. How? Once again, [[Sony Music|CBS Records]] or [[Columbia Records|CBS Records]] regarding the text mentioning "CBS Records" prior to 1991. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

... You do not have to say it ever again, we got it the first time you said it, it is just that it is not relevant. An encyclopedia isn't about "now" it is about now and about the past. The 1,300 incoming links are to the previous entity. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Although CBS Records was renamed to Sony Music Entertainment, having an article on the earlier iterations of a company is not unheard of. Computing Tabulating Recording Company and IBM, as an example. American Record Corporation, which is an earlier iteration of the Sony CBS Records, also has its own article. The new page should then be linked on the disambiguation page that Steelbeard1 created.--SGCM (talk) 19:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

...and such a new page has already been created, CBS Records International regarding the international arm of Columbia Records which was launched in 1962. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• This source says there was a president of CBS Records and at the same time a president of CBS Records International, so CBS Records International ≠ CBS Records: "Mr. Yetnikoff was instrumental in the sale of CBS Records to Sony in January 1988 for $2 billion. ... Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:15, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't include pre-1960 CBS Records, does it?--SGCM (talk) 19:52, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

What pre-1960 CBS Records??? The Columbia Broadcasting System did not use the "CBS Records" brand until 1962 when CBS Records International was launched. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Just looked it up, apparantely when ARC was acquired by CBS in 1938, the company was renamed the Columbia Recording Corporation. Perhaps creating a separate article for that will satisfy Richard Arthur Norton's concerns.--SGCM (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Now that is getting anal retentive. While the official name of Atlantic Records is Atlantic Recording Corporation, the article name is still Atlantic Records. That is getting too silly Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It technically is a separate entity from Columbia Records, a label which still operates today, and CBS Records International, which didn't begin until 1962. The link could be redirected to ARC, which is another option. I'm trying to address Richard Arthur Norton's concerns here, to reach a compromise between both parties. Disputes over technicalities are basically the bread and butter of DRN (just look at the other disputes on this page!), so it isn't surprising. ;)--SGCM (talk) 20:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Another interesting point, the Columbia Recording Corporation was renamed to CBS Records in 1953. So there was a CBS Records prior to CBS Records International.--SGCM (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Any linked proof of the existence of a "CBS Records" entity prior to 1961? Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Probably it is time to collect evidence? References, supporting the fate of this or that "CBS Records"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

"After the acquisition, another name change was instituted, and the company was known as the Columbia Recording Corporation until a second change took place in 1953 when CBS Records was established as a Division of CBS, Inc." From the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society: Volume 38. Google books has a snippet to verify it, but the preview's not available.--SGCM (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

This 1959 Billboard piece at [24] mentioned Epic and Columbia president Goddard Lieberson but no mention of a "CBS Records." Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

See here. The snippet for the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society.--SGCM (talk) 21:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

That link is not trustworthy as it does not show the whole page and the journal in question was published in 1990. The trustworthy links are for old publications produced prior to 1960 such as the Billboard magazine articles I like to show. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The Billboard magazine article only mentions the label, but not the subsidiary that owns it. Either way, can we agree that the Columbia Recording Corporation predates CBS Records International? I think that creating a separate article for the Columbia Recording Corporation solves the issues raised by the other party.--SGCM (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

But "Columbia Recording Corp" is still basically Columbia Records? Remember the ATlantic Records comparison I used to shoot down your argument. They had an in-house publication published by "Columbia Records Inc" such as this one published in 1959 at [25] which allows you to search for text. Nothing mentioning "CBS Records" as I already checked. As for the Billboard link I provided above, scroll down to page 7 to look at the ad for the then new Johnny Cash single. Below the Columbia Records logo, it gives the trademark info as well as "Division of Columbia Broadcasting System Inc." Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Columbia Recording Corporation is not the same as Columbia Records. The Columbia Recording Corporation was what the American Recording Corporation was renamed to when CBS bought it in the 1930s. ARC, before it was renamed Columbia, owned Columbia Records, but the label is separate from the actual corporation, and in fact predates it (so the Atlantic analogy does not apply, these are two separate corporate entities with seperate histories). The CRC owned multiple labels, not just Columbia Records. The label still operates today, but the corporation does not.--SGCM (talk) 21:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The Sony Music article gives the entire history going back to 1929 when ARC was formed. The Columbia Records article goes back to 1888 when the Columbia Phonograph Company was formed. Columbia celebrates its 125th anniversary next year and they note that in their official web site. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the Sony Music article does include the history of the ARC. And the ARC has a separate article. And so should the CRC, if only to resolve the dispute with Norton and the other parties over the issue of incoming links. There's enough to be written on the CRC for a separate article, and I think it's a workable compromise. If the ARC, CBS Records International, and Sony Music all have separate articles, it seems odd to leave the CRC out. There is another option: We could merge all three articles into a History of Sony Music Entertainment article and make everyone happy.--SGCM (talk) 21:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

But when did the CRC become Columbia Records Inc.? We still have some holes to fill. The CRC material is most appropriate for the Sony Music article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

No clue. Anyhow, the problem is, if we have articles on some of the past iterations of the Sony Music (like the ARC and CBS Records International), it makes little sense to exclude the iteration (CRC) between ARC and CBS Records International. What do you think about the option of merging all the past iterations of Sony Music into a single article (History of Sony Music Entertainment)? That's another way of solving the dispute.--SGCM (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Without sufficient referenced material to justify a separate article, the solution is to keep all the history in the Sony Music article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 22:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you supporting a merge of the ARC (record company) and CBS Records International articles back into the Sony article? For consistency.--SGCM (talk) 22:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

In response to the bickering about consensus. There is no official time limit or number of !votes for determining consensus. Consensus is vaguely defined on Wikipedia, but is usually based on the "quality of the arguments" and not on anything quantitative.--SGCM (talk) 19:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• You are off on tangents, please stay focused on what we have asked to be resolved. The issue is what should the landing article be for the 1,300 links that are "CBS Records". It is now landing at a disambiguation page. Consensus on the talk page was to have them land at an article on "CBS Records" as it existed from about 1960 to 1991. Steel has moved that article to CBS Records International. This reference from the New York Times says that CBS Records International ≠ CBS Records: "Mr. Yetnikoff was instrumental in the sale of CBS Records to Sony in January 1988 for $2 billion. ... Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Noeton is showing himself to the Wikipedia community who is following this to be TOTALLY CLUELESS. I have given the landing points MANY, MANY MANY TIMES. So I will say it again. The landing point in regardings to the CBS Records label is Columbia Records. The landiing point for the CBS Records company is again Sony Music. Although based upon the context of the material, it could also land on the CBS Records International article AND ONCE AGAIN, ALL MATERIAL SUCH AS THE NEW YOUR TIMES ARTICLE NORTON MENTIONED WHICH WERE PUBLISHED BEFORE 1991 BECAME OUTDATED BECAUSE THAT WAS WHEN THE NAME CHANGES TOOK PLACE. COMPRENDE???? Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Internet Explorer

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Czarkoff on 23:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Internet Explorer 9 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Users involved

• Czarkoff (talk · contribs)
• Codename Lisa (talk · contribs)
• Ziiike (talk · contribs)
• Schapel (talk · contribs)
• Nigelj (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The disputed content is the infobox field |license= in the Internet Explorer 9 article.

The browser is available free of charge for licensees of Windows, so that in order to use IE one has to buy Windows license. The title of the license agreement for IE is "MS-EULA", but it is also the generic abbreviation Microsoft uses to refer to any of its numerous End User License Agreements (which differ quite significantly in terms).

The disputants can't decide on the following matters:

1. Is IE a "freeware" or a "Proprietary commercial software"?
2. Is "MS-EULA" an appropriate way to refer to the license for IE in this particular article?
3. Is it appropriate at all to use the terms from the question #1 in the |license= parameter?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

• Discussion at User talk:Codename Lisa#Freeware and MS EULA
• Discussion at Talk:Internet Explorer 9#MS-EULA again
• Third opinion at Talk:Internet Explorer 9#MS-EULA again (the 3O editor became involved in the dispute though)

How do you think we can help?

Help to work out the |license= parameter wording that would communicate the core of problem to the readers in optimal way.

Opening comments by Codename Lisa

Imagine you open an article about a new Microsoft product whose license fields reads: "MS-EULA". Can you please tell me: Does the user have to pay for it? Can he redistribute it? Can he install it on as many computers as he likes? Can he disassemble and reverse-engineer it? No, you can't. There are over 35000 Microsoft products, each of which have their own unique "Microsoft End-User License Agreement" (MS-EULA). Some of them are commercial software, some free and open-source, some closed source but free of charge. Contrary to phrases like "GPL" or "Creative Commons", "MS-EULA" is not the name of a ubiquitous licensing scheme and has zero bearing on what the terms of license is. It is meaningless. Surprisingly, this phrase does not appear in the license agreement of our subject of discussion at all.

Now, freeware on the other hand is a lose term which means gratis proprietary software. The opposition argued that Internet Explorer's license agreement also mandates the owner to have a genuine Windows license and the word freeware is not enough. Although I disagree, I accepted and proposed phrases like "Freeware for Windows license owners" or "free upgrade for Windows". But the opposition agrees to no compromise and is somehow unduly embittered about the fact that Windows itself is a commercial product. (Of course, I think this is just a political anti-piracy maneuver of Microsoft; in the end, from a neutral point of view, Internet Explorer is exactly as free as any other freeware like Opera, CCleaner or Paint.NET which also need the user to own a copy of Windows. Reputable software publishers like Tucows^[26], Softpedia^[27], FileHippo^[28] and SnapFiles^[29] regard IE freeware.)

Opening comments by Ziiike

Freeware is not the best term to be used as it is poorly defined. MS-EULA cannot be used due to not being a license. In my opinion, either saying it is freeware for windows license holders or simply saying it is proprietary would be best. Ziiike (talk) 01:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Schapel

I believe that the most appropriate wording would be license=Proprietary Commercial Software, both because Internet Explorer is part of Windows, and also because a Windows license is required to run Internet Explorer legally.[30] (You may not use it if you do not have a license for the software.) This is despite the fact that it could be technically possible to run Internet Explorer without Windows (for example, running it under Wine on Linux). Because it is impossible to run Internet Explorer without paying money to Microsoft for Windows, which Internet Explorer is a part of, it cannot be considered freeware. If it were freeware, it could be used legally without payment to Microsoft for a license. -- Schapel (talk) 03:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The issue of the cost (as opposed to the license) can be handled by stating that it is included with Windows, which indicates that users who have paid for Windows don't have to purchase Internet Explorer separately. -- Schapel (talk) 13:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Nigelj

The relevant license is the Microsoft End User License Agreement (MS EULA) for IE9. I'm told that we're not allowed simply to name and link the relevant license under 'License' in the infobox, because the infobox documentation says to "avoid specifying phrases that makes no sense to the reader such as "Microsoft EULA"". I disagree with this, and I have been told that it is because "There has already been a discussion about this whole issue and a consensus has previously been established." I have asked for a link to the discussion, but haven't seen one yet. If it is going to be possible to summarise the whole MS-EULA for IE9 into one or two words for the infobox, we'll have to start with the original text, which is linked above.[31] It's a supplemental license that says "If you are licensed to use Microsoft Windows 7, Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, or Windows Server 2008 R2 software (for which this supplement is applicable) (the “software”), you may use this supplement. You may not use it if you do not have a license for the software." I would much rather just name the Microsoft document and provide a link to it, but if we can't do that for some realistic reason, then we may have to content ourselves with summarising or classifying it into our own words. Legally, I do not feel very well qualified to do so accurately. P.S. See Talk:Internet Explorer 9#MS-EULA again, not quite as stated in some of the links above. --Nigelj (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Czarkoff

I believe that the most appropriate wording would be |license=[[Freeware]] for Windows licensees, as it both demonstrates that Internet Explorer per se is distributed free of charge, though Windows license (which costs money) is required. I find |license=MS-EULA approach particularly bad, as MS-EULA it is an abbreviation of the generic title of Microsoft license agreement and doesn't communicate the terms of license to readers. 23:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Internet Explorer discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hello all, I'm a volunteer here at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm going to try and shepherd this dispute to a resolution. Let's wait until all the parties have had an opportunity to present their cases. Hasteur (talk) 11:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, now that we've got all the editors statements, I'd like to ask a question. Where in the infobox {{Infobox Windows component}} is the licence field? Unless I've missed something the template doesn't have support for a licence field and I've spot checked and seen this template in use on the page since the beginning of this year. Could someone please link me to the direct item that they're wanting to change? Hasteur (talk) 17:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, it is my fault: I linked the wrong article. The discussion is about {{infobox web browser}} of Internet Explorer 9 article. I fixed the links in this case. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:37, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

First, I'd say that any of these terms is correct. One thing that struck me is that a footnote may be suitable in this case to explain the need to have a valid Windows license. You may have already done this, but I took a quick look at comparable browsers. None of course are exactly the same, but they may help:

• Opera (web browser): Proprietary freeware with open source components
  • Note: proprietary, formerly commercial, freeware
• Safari (web browser): Freeware; some components GNU LGPL
  • Note: commercial, freeware, default browser on Mac
• Netscape (web browser): proprietary
  • Note: formerly commercial, proprietary, freeware, belligerent in browser wars against IE
• Mosaic (web browser): proprietary
  • Note: proprietary, commercial, freeware for non-commercial use
• AOL Explorer: proprietary
  • Note: based on IE, proprietary, commercial, freeware, required browser to access AOL, required a valid AOL subscription
• Internet Explorer for Mac: MS-EULA
  • Note: proprietary, commercial, freeware, default browser on Mac, required a valid Mac license [Edit: struck this because it's a given]

--RA (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, now that I can see how the problem is affecting this, I'd like to ask another question. What about Internet Explorer 9 (hereafter refered to as IE9) and it's licence is significantly different than the previous 8 versions? I did a quick tour through the other versions and saw MS-EULA on the rest of them. Hasteur (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

No, there is no difference. That said, I'm unsure whether the fact that the other IE-related articles contain |license=MS-[[EULA]] proves that this choice is right or at least better then any other. As I see it, the role of |license= parameter is to inform readers of terms of use of the software, and neither the name "MS-EULA", not the link to end-user license agreement article helps to fulfill this role. Though I have no proof to establish the validity of my vision, it is in line with documentation of {{infobox software}}, containing the same parameter. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Dimitrij, can we have time to let others speak up? Hasteur (talk) 18:49, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, After crawling through the definitions again I am confused. I'd like to hear each disputant's viewpoint about the inclusionary/exclusionary natures of commercial software and freeware (Specifically paid versus given away and restricted rights) Hasteur (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Czarkoff:Term freeware (as I get it) means that usage rights (commonly ambiguously referred to as "license") for the software is offered free of charge. As I get it, this term doesn't imply lack of usage restrictions: typically freeware is offered without right of modification (or adaptation), frequently for non-commercial purposes only, seldom other restrictions are imposed. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Codename Lisa:

Ziiike:

Schapel: The term freeware means software that costs no money to use. If there is an exchange of money for the right to use a program, then that program is not freeware. Several editors argue that once a user has purchased Windows, then using browsers such as Opera or Internet Explorer costs no extra money, and therefore they should equally be considered freeware. There are two problems with this argument. First, no money was paid to Opera for the right to use their software, but the user did pay Microsoft money for the right to run Internet Explorer (because using it legally requires a Windows license). Second, I can download Opera for Windows and run it under Wine on Linux without paying any money; I would not be able to do the same with Internet Explorer. The bottom line is that using Internet Explorer requires a payment that is not required for using actual freeware browsers, which require no payment. -- Schapel (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Nigelj: To my mind, freeware implies not only that it doesn't require payment, but usually that there are no restrictions on what you do with it, what operating system you run it on (provided you can get it to run); it usually means that there is no support, no updates, no warranty, and no one to sue if it screws up your machine or your business. None of this applies to MSIE, or businesses would not pay out for Microsoft OS licenses in order to be able to roll out MSIE across all their desktops, with full support, updates, backup etc. I think that the correct response is MS-[[EULA]], with a ref linked to the specific actual document at http://windows.microsoft.com/en-MY/internet-explorer/products/ie-9/end-user-license-agreement That way there is no WP:OR and all relevant information is made available. I remain baffled by the admonition "Please avoid specifying phrases that makes no sense to the reader such as "Microsoft EULA"" in the infobox documentation. If this is the correct license for 35,000 products, why should we not name it, link it, and reference it? --Nigelj (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

One of the problems is that, like many words, they're vaguely defined. The ambiguity of the term freeware has a lot to do with the dispute. Perhaps it's better just to stick with "proprietary software"?--SGCM (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Andromedean on 08:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Andromedean (talk · contribs) Sport and politics (talk · contribs) Showmebeef (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I have attempted to provide an article of the controversial attempts to use technological advances in cycling so athletes gain a potential advantage for the London 2012 Olympics. First of all the article was removed on the basis that 'the British team did well', then on the basis is isn't controversial because no rules were broken. When I find evidence that it is controversial the excuse it doesn't matter how many quotes and research I find, it doesn't make it controversial. Initial tactics involved just removing quotes from reports and even statements on the basis that there 'was no evidence', then more sophisticated methods were used such as I am using 'synthesis'. Suggesting that members may be biased leads to threats that I may be bannd for calling other memebers! I have clarified a point with a University professor to clarify a point, only for users to use the excuse the fact can't be used because it needs an expert to understand. Another example is that improvements in the 1 hr cycling record due to aerodynamics has no relevence to the Olympics because the event isn't used in the Olympics! The latest tactic is to corrupt the article slowly, and so it appears not to address London 2012 so it can be removed to a less prominent section. This appears mainly the work od one member who encourages this behaviour in a few others. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Send an Email 'ArbCom-l' with the subject Arbitration - Controversies_at_the_2012_Summer_Olympics#Technologies_used_for_Olympic_sports Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Post by non-member to a members-only list Nothing seems to have happened How do you think we can help? Examine if the rules are being misused (overzealous), examining the edits. Point out that members must be unbiased. Warn members not to remove extracts if they are quotes from respected sources. Respect other members research and don't blind users with high sounding wikipedia rules such as 'synthesis' when there is no justification! Opening comments by Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.