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Revision as of 09:35, 18 December 2006

< December 17 December 19 >
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete as unverified (however, I will userfy to badlydrawnjeff per his offer) . Docg 19:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Legend of Zelda: The Triforce Saga (3rd nomination)

Nominated by Jonny2x4 (talk · contribs) stating "Obvious vanity article. I know the article failed nomination once, but this REALLY is a vanity page." Only helping the nomination along. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose the merge; it does not address the problem of their being no reliable sources. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No offense but this reasoning doesn't really hold water, lots of articles go up and back and up and back at AfD, sometimes due to clouded votes, lack of consensus, sockpuppetry, and a host of other reasons, I would advocate reexamining every AfD on its own merits, unless it is a bad-faith nomination.--Dmz5 19:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete. And remove the image while you're still at it. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 01:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 06:16Z

A Cappella Groups at the University of Virginia

A Cappella Groups at the University of Virginia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

An article about several groups which do not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the standards of WP:RS/WP:NOR. All the "citations" in this article to the groups personal webistes, not to secondary sources. Multiple, non-trivial secondary-sources are required to establish the notability of a group. Claims from their own website are insufficient. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete Nomination says it all. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Ok, I realized that I was being hypocritical in choosing to delete this one and not the other a cappella groups. Simply, those are about 1 group and are detailed. This is more or less a list. See WP:NOT. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I merged the underlying articles into this one, but yes, I agree that this can probably go too. None too notable. Hullabahoos have their own article. Ohconfucius 08:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Per nom. Somitho 13:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Per nom, and as I see it, it is not notible away from the nomination so theres 2 reasons for ya. → p00rleno (lvl 78) ←ROCKSCRS 13:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Virginia-related deletions. -- Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 14:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep I would delete individual articles aboout the groups, but I think it is reasonable to have an article about them collectively. I object to the absence of any independent sources (other than the choral groups and the university). The university sources are at least verifiable if not wholly independent. There must have been newspaper articles about the groups or their albums. Serious and encyclopedic music groups at least get independent reviews of their public performances at cathedrals, concert halls, etc. I expect the article and articles like it would get more support if multiple independent reliable sources were provided, because they would then be notable by traditional Wikipedia standards. If it is just a recreational group of no demonstrated artistic merit then it is as non-encyclopedic as a recreational softball or bowling team. Edison 16:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Pooling 8 non-notable groups together does not result in notability. Perhaps what you're looking for can better be accomplished at the List of collegiate a cappella groups, which includes their name, school, and website without including any of the unsourced information that is so problematic in these articles. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Articles in their college newspapers are insufficient. They establish existence but not notability for anyone outside the college. For example, college newspapers often write about their BBQ clubs, whip clubs, etc. These do not all merit encyclopedic articles. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, college newspapers aren't considered reliable sources? The newspaper does assert notability, at least for the Sil'hooettes if not any of the other groups. And where in WP:N or WP:MUSIC does it say that the source that provides non-trivial colverage has to establish notability? I thought the idea was that if they're covering the subject at all (in a non-trivial manner of course), it's ipso facto notable. schi talk 23:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
College newspapers are not reliable enough to establish that a group is notable beyond their campus. They tend to exaggerate the importance of their institution and cover groups that other media wouldn't. If a groups notability can be established without its college newspapers, they may be used to augment the information in that article. savidan(talk) (e@) 04:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentCollege newspapers are independent sources which can be considered in determining notability. Edison 05:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • College newspapers intentionally promote campus activities like the arts. They should be treated skeptically at best for such activities, not assumed to be independent sources. As WP:INDY states, "An independent source is a source which describes a topic from the outside." Groups that have achieved notoriety through outside publications, like Skull and Bones, can lay claim to independent sources. I don't think Wikipedia has reached the point where any person or organization mentioned in a college newspaper deserves an article. (That will have to wait for the Final Encyclopedia, perhaps. ☺) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Even if were going to accept WP:INDY as an authority (which it's not), the essay specifically says "for a recording artist, an independent source would be a review of the artist rather than album sleeve notes or a press release". A college newspaper is not these a cappella groups' press releases or album notes. To be on the "inside", the source would have to be a publication of the a cappella group itself - which the Cavalier Daily is not; it's an independent student newspaper with no official links to the a cappella groups. If you contend that a college newspaper, because of the very nature of its focus, is not a sufficiently independent source, then does that mean the New York Times should likewise be treated skeptically for its coverage of Manhattan news? Or we shouldn't consider USA Today independent in its coverage of U.S. news, but should rather consider the foreign press? There is nothing in WP:RS that indicates college newspapers are not reliable sources. In terms of exaggerating the institution - I'm sure there are plenty of college newspapers/alumni publications which larger circulations than plenty of other, non-school-affiliated "reliable sources". I don't see why these sources should be treated "skeptically" just because their community of readers is based on an educational institution rather than say, a county. schi talk 08:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with a lot of the previous post. I don't think anyone is arguing that we should assume that facts sourced to college newspapers are false. However, the existence of a college newspaper article about a college club does not establish that clubs notability, even if the article tosses around adjectives like "premier", "internationally-known," etc. It's not that we can't trust sources within the geographical jurisdiction that their name implies, it's that small sources tend to cover their local beat generously. Thus, a college club that manages to get an article in their college newspaper does not automatically warrant a wikipedia article. savidan(talk) (e@) 09:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
schi, as someone who has personally experienced the low bar of college-newspaper journalistic integrity of by having entire sentences invented by a "reporter" and attributed to me, I think it's outrageous to compare the New York Times and USA Today to them. And, anticipating the next riposte, I advise against using Jayson Blair or the like as a yardstick of NYT and its ilk. It's precisely because such incidents are outrageous scandals, not the business-as-usual of amateur student writing, that we consider professional publications reliable sources. Personally, I'd prefer to have outside sources for just about anything cited in a college paper. But savidan again reminds us that the issue here is notability, not factual accuracy. The issue of other, outside sources for college material becomes moot because the subjects are of only parochial interest. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment College newspapers typically are very critical in their reporting of the cultural efforts of on campus groups. There is no incentive for the campus reporters to slavishly praise every musical group on campus. It is purely a strawman argument to go from the statement that a campus paper counts as a source to saying "I don't think Wikipedia has reached the point where any person or organization mentioned in a college newspaper deserves an article." No one has even proposed that "any group or organization mentioned in the New York Times deserves an article." Substantial reporting of a campus group in a campus paper counts fro as much toward notability as an equivalent reporting of an off campus group in the local town newspaper. Also a strawman argument is reference to "an article" in the campus paper not being enough, since outr standard is multiple sources. But an article can certainly be one of those sources, in combination with other sources. Please do not use a sliding scale to disallow coverage in campus papers. At colleges I attended, they were not a mouthpiece to do public relations. The reviewers ridiculed lame efforts by student groups as much as they ridiculed stupid policies of campus administrators. Edison 15:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jeffq, for the record, I did not attribute a similarity in journalistic integrity between the apparently monolithic establishment of college newspaper journalism with such institutions as the NYT and USA Today. (Nor do I particularly appreciate your presumption that I was going to next invoke Jayson Blair, as that is obviously an irrelevant and extraordinary circumstance.) My point is that college newspapers should, generally, pass WP:INDY with flying colors, just as much as NYT or USA Today would. The assumption that just because an independent, reliable source covers a particular community makes it de facto unsuitable for determining notability seems to me to leave the door wide open for systemic cultural POV. You may call a school-affiliated publication a "small" source, or a particular-school-affiliated subject a parochial topic, but where do you draw the line/set the arbitrary level of granularity? (!Pokemon, but...) To consider notability as something that must be geographically affirmed (nationally recognized, etc.) privileges arbitrary geographic formations that aren't necessarily relevant to the scope of the topic. I'm sure you would agree that a topic doesn't have to rise to the level of being covered by a state or national newspaper to be considered sufficiently notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia, as in many, many cases that would be totally irrelevant, but that's what these arguments sound like. I guess we have a fundamental disagreement, which I think I'm sure I've seen in other Wikipedia discussions like this. schi talk 18:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Response to Edison: Please be careful about accusing people of making straw man arguments. My statement, "I don't think Wikipedia has reached the point where any person or organization mentioned in a college newspaper deserves an article", was specifically about Wikipedia articles, not campus paper articles. I said nothing about "'an article' in the campus paper", and turning this into a denial of the "multiple sources" standard can itself be construed as a straw man. I am saying that any amount of reporting in a campus paper is not inherently reliable or notability-confirming. It must be judged on its merits and double-checked for accuracy, since the authors are not professionals, and the oversight of collegiate news is in general less rigorous than the professionals and varies widely from school to school and year to year. But this whole line of discussion is a straw man, because there are no such college-paper articles cited in A Cappella Groups at the University of Virginia. Currently, its sole "sources" are group websites, which can be useful but can't be the only means of justifying notability. It is certainly possible for student reporters to do a good job, but the proof is in the pudding, and we have no pudding at the moment. I would also like to make clear (not that you suggested otherwise!) that I do not believe that we should delete all college a cappella group articles on principle. To use your example above, the Virginia Sil'hooettes have an arguable case for notability, having won 2 CARAs — a verifiable factual tidbit from the Cavalier. My problem is with this article, which encourages the inclusion of any collection of Wahoos who know how to sing without instruments and can file a student group application. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Response to schi: I apologize for offending you with the Blair comparison, but I believe it was an obvious next argument for someone who is pushing the geographical-context comparison between NYT and UVA's Cavalier without acknowledging the editorial-concern argument, given my point that I have personal experience with reporters-in-training making stuff up to serve their agendas. I concede this is an extreme example, and that reporting on college music groups is probably not usually this biased. I also apologize for any implication of a "monolithic establishment of college newspaper journalism". As I mention in my above response to Edison, college papers can have useful material, but they must be double-checked because they are far more prone to favoritism and simple ineptitude by fledging reporters. (The change at Wikipedia:Notability (music) was done with far too little discussion or any meaningful consensus, and opens the door to the promotion of any local artist or group that catches the fancy of the student staff.) Finally, I don't agree that a topic need not "rise to the level of being covered by a state or national newspaper"; I think this is a useful yardstick for notability in a global encyclopedia. I take this position because Wikipedians are, in general, atrociously bad at creating proper citations for reliable sources, mostly believing that (A) "truth" is all that matters; (B) bare links to self-promotional websites, fansites, or user forums are sufficient; or (C) mentioning correspondence or a newspaper without giving specifics is more than enough for "sourcing"; when none of these are adequate for verifiability. I am not saying you are doing this; that's just the experience motivating my hard line on solid, neutral, professional sources. (My point can be easily demonstrated by observing the sore lack of proper sources in the first 10 articles one fetches through "Random article".) If we had more folks doing a thorough job of vetting sources, I'd be much more willing to accept very local sources, as I am an inclusionist at heart. Until that time, I'm a practical deletionist in order to force that vetting. But as I mention above, we currently have absolutely zero independent sources cited in this article. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jeffq, I wasn't really offended, but I do appreciate the civility. Finally, I don't agree that a topic need not "rise to the level of being covered by a state or national newspaper"; I think this is a useful yardstick for notability in a global encyclopedia. - Perhaps I shouldn't have said "rise", as my point here is that the fact that an information source is geographically-based is often irrelevant to its usefulness as a reliable source (to establish notability). Esoteric/academic/highly-technical topics that are routinely not covered in general (geographically-based) newspapers but are discussed in academic journals/conference proceedings are considered sufficiently notable for an encyclopedia, even though such sources can have very small audiences and are not geographically-based. schi talk 00:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I submit that a previous deletion nomination should be considered which happens to be one of the a cappella groups in question.Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hullabahoos. In the end this article was kept... we need to maintain consistency... if we keep Hullabahoos, how can we delete a listing for the remaining a cappella groups at the same University? I know the rest are not as developed as the linked example, but you have to give it some time to grow. Seems kind of hypocritical to keep the example and delete this one if you ask me. Jazznutuva 08:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't see why keeping one group at a University, means we have to keep all a cappella related articles from that University. savidan(talk) (e@) 09:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Consistency" is a common but erroneous argument for inclusion. To quote Wikipedia:Verifiability, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." The golden standard for verifiability is multiple reliable sources. Hullabahoos has them; many other UVA a cappella groups do not. What's more, this is not a discussion about the groups themselves, but rather whether we should have an article collecting the groups. This list article currently has no independent, reliable sources whatsoever. (Actually, after examining the Hullaboos article, I see that the use of bare links disguises the fact that most of the "sources" are either Cavalier articles or clearly not wiki-reliable sources. Only the Kennedy Center link is inarguably reliable. This will need some investigation, too.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to Twin Peaks. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 06:12Z

Invitation to Love

Invitation to Love (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

This is a fictional TV show within a TV show (Twin Peaks, one of my favorite TV series), with only a few scenes total material. There is no reasonable expectation of reliable sources for sourcing any information. Delete. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Very weak keep I remember this got a multi-page article in Wrapped In Plastic (issue 8 or 6 or something). Could probably be a keeper if anyone cares enough about it to expand and reference it. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - It's a minor but important important component of Lynch's doppelganger motif for the series. As for reliable sources, what in the article needs to be sourced beyond the confirming its existence and the names of the characters (as is done for three of them here for starters)? Additionally, Wrapped in Plastic did an ITL episode guide in issue 6, which I'm sure someone still has floating around somewhere, if additional sourcing is needed. And as always, the show itself is a reliable source. Otto4711 01:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge, obviously, since notability isn't established. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 01:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete A fictional TV show within a TV show simply is not notable enough to merit its own article. At most, this should be dealt with within the main Twin Peaks article, as any notability this "show" has is made apparent only in the context of the show in which it exists. Interestingstuffadder 01:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge I definitely don't think there's enough here to support a separate article for Invitation to Love. The basic info that currently exists on the page doesn't support the inherent notability of the show-within-a-show, and one article in a publication directly related to the show doesn't cut it (that's only one step away from using an indie band's MySpace as a source). The Google search I performed gave no information other than characters' names and perhaps a one-sentence synopsis, and these hits were not plentiful. Simply put, ItL is not sufficiently significant by its own merits. -- Kicking222's 5,000th edit to Wikipedia! 01:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Twin Peaks article, seems pretty simple to me. wtfunkymonkey 02:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge & Redir to Twin Peaks. Which is awesome, as are <fireworks>K222's 5000 edits</fireworks> ;) Deizio talk 02:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge & Redirect per above. Split Infinity (talk) 03:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, first, Wrapped in Plastic was created and produced by people with no connection to the show itself, so it's incorrect to dismiss its content as "a publication directly related to the show." Second, checking through the Ghits turns up an article which apparently uses ITL as a basis for an analysis of TP. That plus the aforementioned WIP article plus the many minor mentions of the show-within-a-show peppered throughout TP online sites plus the fact that most TP scholarship isn't available online and the topic is notable. Barely notable, I will freely admit, but notable nonetheless. Otto4711 04:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I already "voted" up-article. Otto4711 05:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm tickled that someone actually wrote a serious article using "Invitation to Love". I would consider changing my vote to "merge" to include a very short statement that summarizes the basic idea, with the proper citation (Charney, Mark J. (1991). "Invitation to Love: The Influence of Soap Opera on David Lynch's Twin Peaks". Studies in Popular Culture. 14 (1): 53–59. ISSN 0888-5753.). But the entire current content of the article is too trivial even to merge, IMHO. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete Both. If someone wants to create a redirect to "Baker's dozen", feel free. ---J.S (T/C) 16:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Baker's Dozen

The Baker's Dozen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)
also nominated: Vocal music at Yale.

College a cappella group which does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the verifiability requirements of WP:RS/WP:NOR. Claims to notability are having performed in front of various people (which can only be sourced to the group's webiste) and having alumni who went on to join the U.S. Navy or become a Junior Analyst at Merrill Lynch. Multiple, non-trivial secondary-sources are required to establish the notability of a group. Claims from their own website are insufficient. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Added to nom insince no one else has voted. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of that being a criteria at WP:MUSIC. Certainly not everyone who is 60 years old is notable. There are tons of college clubs that have been around a long time but haven't become notable outside of their college. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment And do the 70 year old trees in your garden sing and go on tours? I would worry if you answer yes. Edison 05:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If they did they would be notable on account of the reams of direct media coverage the "All Singing, All Dancing Trees of Scotland" phenomenon recieved, not how long they had been around. Deizio talk 20:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Birnam Wood perhaps. Edison 20:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
None of my nomination concerns the article's quality, but rather that it doesn't meet the notability criteria. Which criteria do you think it meets exactly? savidan(talk) (e@) 06:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I believe a cappella groups are notable. They're just as notable as political organizations. Why don't you nominate the Skull and Bones Society for deletion? It's a college organization. And the page has lots of original research and speculation. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There have been books, newspaper and magazine articles, etc. written about the Skull and Bones society. Perhaps the same is true for some college a cappella groups—not the ones I nominated. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are most certainly notable a cappella groups, like The Bobs, Da Vinci's Notebook, and Take 6 to name a few. But just like college political organizations, college music groups rarely make the notability cut. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kind of a silly redirect. In this case it would be permissible (GFDL-wise) to delete and redirect since the redirect would be to an article unrelated to the group. Not a very worthwhile redirect though. People don't often use the definite article when talking about bakers' dozens. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Added two references to New York Times and one to Fortune magazine which mention the group. They of course had numerous mentions in Yale papers and alumni mags. Seem more notable than most college a capella groups. Edison 17:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If the group is noted by prominent mention in the New York Times or Fortune in more than a directory listing or a passing reference, that should count some towards notability. "Noted" implies "notability." Edison 17:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Edison's conditional statement is misleading. The Holland citation explicitly states "mentioned as one of several newer glee clubs at Yale". The Freedman citation doesn't even state whether the article mentioned TBD, saying instead "The Baker's Dozen sang the Louis Jordan song "Ain't nobody here but us chickens" as part of the recruiting of highschool students" (clearly not a quote from the article, given the use of the non-existent compound word "highschool"). The Fisher article is about Keith Ferrazzi (himself a subject of arguable notability), saying only, "Ferrazzi loves singing, so 'I do piano-bar parties, where I have Lionel Richie and the Yale Baker's Dozen come and hang out,' he says." The actual quote doesn't even specifically say that Richie and the Baker's Dozen were there at the same time for a single party, while the citation implies a much stronger connection: "they performed along with Lionel Richie at a piano-bar party". (Such expansive interpretations of cited material are exactly why proper citations and quotes are necessary, to avoid reading too much into trivial items.) These are clearly passing references, not "prominent mention". ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict, reply to Edison's self-deleted comment}
  • Comment Please remind me which guideline says something has to be the "primary subject" of an article for the article to work toward extablishing notability. Thanks. Edison 17:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The "press coverage" criteria at WP:BIO states "primary subject". The corresponding criteria at WP:MUSIC states "subject". If you're suggesting either of these can be interpreted as being fulfilled with "(mentioned as one of several newer glee clubs at Yale)" or either of the other references you cited, you're missing the point. As a self-proclaimed BLP patroller you should really know about these guidelines. You're welcome. Deizio talk 18:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect exact of trivial references in non-trivial sources; not a basis for notability. If they're writting an article about college marching bands and mention one person to get a quote from them, that person doesn't get an article. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No one's stopping you from nominating that article. It's an inclusionist fallacy that the existence of other non-notables justifies the existence of more non-notables. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yale Daily News articles given prove existence, not notability. Many non-notable school clubs get covered in their school newspapers. If that attempt to evict them got national (or perhaps even state) coverage that'd be a start. If only their college newspaper picked up on it, no dice. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My same comments as above, in the AfD for A cappella groups of UVA, apply here too. Also, this blog reproduces part of (and provides an apparently broken link to) a New Haven Advocate article on the eviction story. I can pull this article from Lexis (hopefully) later, but the point is that even if college newspapers with editorial oversight are, for some reason unbeknownst to me, not considered reliable sources, then the Advocate coverage should be enough. Would you say that alumni magazines also aren't considered reliable sources? schi talk 23:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to get into an argument about what is and isn't a valid source for notability, but this does seem like a rather backdoor way to confer notability on the group -Dmz5 04:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since when do blogs make things more reliable? savidan(talk) (e@) 05:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, when? I know I didn't make that assertion. I said that a blog referenced a relevant article in a newspaper which I was trying to find a copy of. schi talk 08:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both per nom. Bigtop 21:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A college newspaper is an independent sources for determining notability. Edison 05:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • College newspapers intentionally promote campus activities like the arts. They should be treated skeptically at best for such activities, not assumed to be independent sources. As WP:INDY states, "An independent source is a source which describes a topic from the outside." Groups that have achieved notoriety through outside publications, like Skull and Bones, can lay claim to independent sources. I don't think Wikipedia has reached the point where any person or organization mentioned in a college newspaper deserves an article. (That will have to wait for the Final Encyclopedia, perhaps. ☺) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Another comment about this point, college newspapers (despite Edison's assertions below) do have a vested interest in promoting campus life, and while they are usually not just arms of the administration, they are still far more likely than, say, the New York Times to be full of fluff pieces exhorting students to check out this or that performance. As such, it is proper to scrutinize them in this regard.--Dmz5 19:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I did a little investigating and it looks like school newspapers were explicitly prohibited from the WP:MUSIC guidelines until very recently [3] when they were changed with the approval of approximately 2 editors on the talk page, and then later rewritten to not mention school newspapers. However, the intent of the policy is clear: the published source is supposed to demonstrate that the groups notability extends beyond their immediate sphere; a write-up in their college paper does not automatically establish such notability. However, facts from a college newspaper article could perhaps establish that some of the other criteria have been met. savidan(talk) (e@) 09:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, no one is saying they are not reliable sources; the phone book is a reliable source if you wanted to publish someone's address, but it doesn't make that person notable. I know it's not the same thing but you see my point.--Dmz5 09:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (with a feeling of deja vu) At the colleges I attended, the campus paper had an independent editorial board and was often critical of administration policies, the sports teams, and campus arts groups. Maybe at some college, the President hires reporters and tells them to praise the chorus. I think that is the exception rather than the rule. They had as large a circulation as the town paper, and operated at perhaps a higher journalistic level. It is unreasonable to claim that an article in such a paper does not count as one of the multiple, verifiable, independent sources for notability. Otherwise a Cleveland paper could not be a source for notability in Cleveland. And it is a straweman argument to start talking about the impossibility of having an article for "everything mentioned " in a campus paper, since we are judging by the standard of multiple coverage. The campus paper is an independent source; the chorus newsletter would not be. Edison

15:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally see your point, however - I have seen debates (such as the one surrounding Society in Dedham for Apprehending Horse Thieves) in which the use of a small-town newspaper as a source was criticized for the same reason (i.e. providing trivial coverage of every conceivable organization in the town). This may be splitting hairs, but the Cleveland metro area has a million people; there are about 5,000 undergrads at Yale. Furthermore, college newspapers indisputably and rightly give coverage to all kinds of trivial things; the Cleveland Plain Dealer generally does not write articles about local knitting societies and community choruses unless they are involved in something that meets a higher standard of notability. Please do not interpret our responses as being a jab at college newspapers or a claim they are invalid sources or journalistically incompetant, because I don't think that's what anyone is claiming. --Dmz5 16:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I went to very "good" schools for ugrad and grad school and they both did, in fact, have papers of very low journalistic quality, one of which frequently instates and then removes an editorial policy not to provide critical coverage of performing organizations. So I do not think it is totally off base to question them a little more closely, just as we should question the Small Town Times a little more closely. This sort of contradicts what I said about jabs at college papers but it's a point that's worth making.-Dmz5 16:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would certainly agree that college newspapers, regardless of the quality of journalism or stature of the college, report on a very closed sphere of interest and necessarily give coverage to elements of campus life that would not feature in even a local, let alone a regional or national publication. Reports in college papers and glancing / trivial mentions in mainstream media do not satisfy the spirit or the letter of our notability criteria. Deizio talk 16:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WP:N and WP:MUSIC indicate that multiple, non-trivial discussions in reliable sources establish notability; editors here contend that multiple, non-trivial discussions in college newspapers do not establish notability. That sounds to me like you don't accept college newspapers as reliable sources, at least for the purpose of establishing notability. If that's the case, you need to raise it at WP:N or WP:MUSIC, not here. Also on the topic of splitting hairs, while there are about 5,000 undergrads at Yale, there are 120,000+ living alumni who could be interested in topics covered by the Yale newspaper. Further, the article in the New Haven Advocate about the attempt at evicting The Baker's Dozen's is not glancing nor trivial - they're the subject of the article. As for the policy's intent concerning a topic's notability extending beyond its "immediate sphere" - again, I question that "immediate sphere" extends to the entire communities of, in this case, Yale, New Haven, and/or a cappella-affiliated/interested people. schi talk 18:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is a sidenote, but as I mentioned above, it seems to me that an article about a real estate conflict the group had might not propel it to notability unless the article is called The Baker's Dozen Eviction Case. Just my opinion. Also, I posted a comment about this discussion on the WP:N talk page, so feel free to continue this there.--Dmz5 19:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A notable music act will be the "subject of multiple non-trivial published works" (WP:MUSIC) on account of its music, not being evicted, being "new this year" or anything else. I don't accept that being reported in a publication which exists to report the affairs of one university and does not have to compete in the free market can be judged as "reliable" as it pertains to establishing notability. The downpour of cruft such a definition keeps out is frankly huge. I appreciate not everyone shares this view. Deizio talk 20:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not delete vocal music article as in my opinion it can be the basis for a substantial article, although I agree that it is useless in its present state. I commented on this above but I wanted to !vote here for emphasis.--Dmz5 09:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Keep. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 06:11Z

Terra Soft Solutions

Terra Soft Solutions (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Delete. Speedy deletion tag removed, no real assertion of meeting WP:CORP or indeed any external sourcing at all.

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The result was Delete.--Húsönd 01:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Beelzebubs

Beelzebubs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

College a cappella article which does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the verifiability requirements of WP:RS/WP:NOR. Claims to notability include “pioneering the contemporary a cappella sound” (cited to a blurb on a site where they sell their albums, not an independent review) and having “permanently affected the characteristics of collegiate and contemporary a cappella” (without a source). Multiple, non-trivial secondary-sources are required to establish the notability of a group. Claims from their own website are insufficient. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Deizio talk 14:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sean's Best Albums

Sean's Best Albums (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Delete per WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information - it's some guy's favourite albums list. Not speediable as patent nonsense; prod removed. StoptheDatabaseState 00:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I can't find any evidence whatsoever, except for a fleeting glance in the nominator's contribs, that this article ever existed. This is probably due to the current db problems. MER-C 03:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I've fixed the AFD page so that it goes to the right article title. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 04:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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}}}

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Brown Derbies

The Brown Derbies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

College a cappella article which does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the verifiability requirements of WP:RS/WP:NOR. Claims to notability are (1) performing in front of the first lady (cited to their website—would the band that performed "privately" as the Bush's wedding also deserve an article?) and being on TV once (cited to their school newspaper—which does not make the claim that they are notable outside the campus). Multiple, non-trivial secondary-sources are required to establish the notability of a group. Claims from their own website are insufficient. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say it was a radio tower. A google hit is not the same as a reliable source that can be cited or notability. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are many articles that are by far less notable than all these a cappella groups. Instead of deleting them, why don't we expand them? S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Classic fallacy. Existence of other non-notable articles doesn't justify more. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Source given is not a reliable source because it's not sufficiently independent. It's from someone selling their records; may as well be liner notes. Also, BOCA is not a good indicator of notability—see the BOCA afd. savidan(talk) (e@) 07:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chord on Blues

Chord on Blues (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

College a cappella article which does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the verifiability requirements of WP:RS/WP:NOR. Only claim to notability is having appeared on Fox & Friends once. Multiple, non-trivial secondary-sources are required to establish the notability of a group. Claims from their own website are insufficient. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Strong keep A cappella groups have some notability. This group has had serveral albums and many Google hits. A cappella groups are not radio towers. They are established musical organizations. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This keep vote has been copy and pasted and has nothing to do with the merits of this article. Good hits do not an article make. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If there has it was under a different title. If there were reliable sources about their trip to Canada we might be talking.savidan(talk) (e@) 08:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Counterparts (band)

Counterparts (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

College a cappella article which does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the verifiability requirements of WP:RS/WP:NOR. Only claims to notability are getting a track on a BOCA album and having a notable alum. Multiple, non-trivial secondary-sources are required to establish the notability of a group. Claims from their own website are insufficient to ever produce a good article. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Strong keep A cappella groups have some notability. This group has had serveral albums and many Google hits. A cappella groups are not radio towers. They are established musical organizations. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This keep vote has been copy and pasted and has nothing to do with this group. Google hits have nothing to do with it; it doesn't have any WP:RS. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
BOCA is not an award. They take every entry they recieve (unless its really bad) and you have to pay them $200 in the form of pre-buys. If you had to pay money when you won the National Merit Scholarship, you wouldn't put it on your resume. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Trust me: National Merit Scholar" does not help your resume, whether you paid money or not. Edison 05:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy close and delete per unanimous consensus. Sandstein 06:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Secure Democratic Democracy

Secure Democratic Democracy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Zero Google hits for exact term; suspicious original research. Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 01:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Knock Knock Albino

Knock Knock Albino (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)
Gay For A Summer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This allegedly influential team of filmmakers appears to be virtually unknown outside of MySpace. None of their work appears to have been reviewed or critiqued by anyone of any repute. NatusRoma | Talk 01:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adding Gay For A Summer to this AfD, these should be deleted together, unless Sylvester Stallone suddenly pops up to confirm his role in the film... Tubezone 04:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Little Pub Company

Little Pub Company (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Small, defunct chain of pubs in England. No sign of compliance with WP:CORP Deizio talk 02:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. - Mailer Diablo 08:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dan Bryk

Dan Bryk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Article was nominated for speedy deletion per A7, non-notability, but doesn't qualify. The subject meets WP:MUSIC with a tour through Canada, the US and Japan, and with the outside coverage. That's imo enough to avoid speedy deletion, but the issue is whether it's enough to meet the notability thresholds. That's why I'm moving this to AfD instead. No opinion. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 02:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletions and in the list of Canada-related deletions. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 02:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. If he passes WP:MUSIC, he deserves an article. Tevildo 02:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Per Wp Music !paradigm! 03:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think we understood how well we needed to justify Bryk's "career" to be notable. Sorry, it's our first wiki entry. We're getting it, honest. Umrecs 3:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Since you seem to represent Urban Myth Records, Umrecs, I strongly recommend that you read our conflict of interest policy. If your contributions to Wikipedia are determined to be primarily commercial promotion, you may be subject to blocking. --Dhartung | Talk 07:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • With all due respect, while Dan Bryk could be considered a "commercial" artist, if you had read our mission statement in your research, you might have noted that Urban Myth is a 'recording collective'. While we ultimately serve some of the facilitating functions a record company might, we are a non-profit 'artist collective' that serves as a resource for the artists who do the commerce. (FYI Urban Myth sells no products directly or from our website.) Semantics and issues of self-interest aside, I really don't see how you can dispute Dan is a notable artist (cf. new link to COVER Feature Story from Now Weekly, a 395,000 READER CIRCULATION city weekly and a major Toronto cultural signifier). I have supplied the baseline data and links there, please feel free to put your mad skillz to use and re-write for Wiki style. Merci. Umrecs 1:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
        • With all due respect, non-profit is still commercial -- but we don't care if you're non-profit. We're not here to provide free hosting and promotional services, let alone rewrite services, and if you persist in acting like our rules do not apply to you for some reason (believe me, we've seen them all), and we're just here to provide you a soapbox, you will run into problems -- I guarantee that. --Dhartung | Talk 20:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Dhartung, I'm not sure why you appear to taking this so personally. As you should realize from the proposed entry (or even a cursory Google search) Dan Bryk has plenty of other avenues for commercial promotion. My original entry was quite simple, factual and non-promotional, and it was immediately tagged for quick deletion. I then supplemented Dan's entry in hopes of enhanced notability, and was immediately attacked by yourself for alleged commercial promotion. Apart from my role at UM, I PERSONALLY believe Dan deserves a Wiki entry, assuming Wikipedia considers noteworthy alternative music artists to be worthy of entry, and it is up to editors like yourself to debate that. I'm still not sure how that equals "persist(ing) in acting like the rules do not apply to me." Really, hurling threats(!!!) at a first-time wiki author for admitting "Sorry, it's our first wiki entry" seems a little out of line. Umrecs 22:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • I am not taking this personally. I am telling you that Wikipedia has a conflict of interest policy and reminding you to abide by it. When an editor has an interest in an article, any article, their objectivity is likely to be called into question; in this case, had there been any question of notability, then for me (and others) the fact that it was written by a connected entity could easily have tipped argumentation the other way. It's really better to avoid this problem by not editing the article in the first place. Now, we really don't care whether you "personally believe" Bryk should have an entry. We only care whether he meets the relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines such as notability. I have not attacked you, nor have I made threats, if you will reread my comment. I have been firm, and other Wikipedia editors and administrators may be far less forgiving of any violations now that you have been told about our policies, so you should base your future participation in Wikipedia on that. If you don't understand how your editing of the article is a conflict of interest -- and you have not said that you do -- then I will be happy to explain it again. --Dhartung | Talk 06:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
              • Fully Understood. (I apologize for the cavalier tone of my "mad skillz" quip, since obviously these protocols are critically important to you.) The bottom line is, Dan Bryk, acclaimed, loved indie rocker he is, did not have an entry. My intial proposed entry had nothing but objective, factual data that you yourself _could_ have written based on one or two of the cited articles (and that's a selective sample; a Google or EBSCO search will return many more). It was IMMEDIATELY marked for speedy deletion. When augmented with _subjective_ data to DEFEND _notability_, the interest flag came up. Does NO-ONE else here find that process flawed, or at the very least problematic? Umrecs 13:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
                • Placement of the speedy deletion tag is a nomination open to any editor who believes it is warranted. It is an implicit trust of the administrators that when they are closing speedy deletions, since only the nominator and the closing administrator are involved, that the admin take care to abide by the criteria. That was done. The admin had questions about the nomination, so placed it here for a community consensus, rather than leaving it between two people who disagree. To the contrary, that process worked wonderfully, and from your point of view, succeeded -- because here editors found sufficient notability to vote keep (in fact not one editor has voted "delete"). I find no flaw in this process, nor in the way it proceeded in this case. If had been a procedural flaw, we have deletion review as a sort of appeals process. --Dhartung | Talk 21:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Multinational tours + multiple commercial albums [5]= meets WP:MUSIC. -- IslaySolomon | talk 03:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • What the heck? keep. While I'm glad that the pendulum has swung away from "Delete per this proposal", I'm not happy it went all the way to "Delete despite meeting this guideline"... -Amarkov blahedits 03:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Meets WP:MUSIC. —ShadowHalo 04:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Are you kidding me? This article practically embodies WP:MUSIC.S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as WP:MUSIC does seem met. Article is a mess, though. --Dhartung | Talk 07:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep, but it does need a good re-write. SkierRMH 07:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, meets WP:MUSIC but needs a complete rewrite. I never heard of him but through a Google search he is obviously notable. Terence Ong 07:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a pretty no-brainer keep. May need some rewriting, but that's a different issue. Contested speedies don't necessarily have to be taken to AFD, if doing so would violate WP:SNOWBALL. Bearcat 03:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, as while the article is indeed rather messy and we should tag it for cleanup, it easily fulfills the WP:MUSIC notability criteria. To illustrate, reviews of his work have been featured in several recent non-trivial published works, such as Pitchfork Media. Check out Pitchfork Review #1 and Pitchfork Review #2 for examples. TheSteve04 20:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Baker (financier)

Arthur Baker (financier) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Accountant and financier who deals with a lot of zeroes. Don't see the connection with WP:BIO though. Deizio talk 02:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mall at Stonecrest

Mall at Stonecrest (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Previous AfD here. Contested PROD Yanksox 03:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of sets of unrelated albums with identical titles

List of sets of unrelated albums with identical titles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

This list violates WP:NOT#IINFO. There is nothing interesting to be said about albums with identical titles that warrants an article on them, much less a list of examples.Bjart 20:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

savidan(talk) (e@) 05:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy redirect to Boot Camp (film). Pardon my boldness, but this was a matter that did not require deletion. --Wafulz 04:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Straight Edge (film)

Straight Edge (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

This page should be deleted because the movie title has been changed to 'boot camp'. If you click the link to the IMDB site, you can see the name has changed. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870204/) silic0nsilence 03:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 08:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Snowboarders v. Skiiers Conflict

Snowboarders v. Skiiers Conflict (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

This is non-notable and unverifiable. Also, this article is just ridiculous. Split Infinity (talk) 03:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just pointing out that "this article is interesting" is not much of an argument to keep it on WP.--Dmz5 20:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was merge links to Criticism of Wikipedia. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 06:08Z

The Shiny Diamonds controversy

The Shiny Diamonds controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

This is a rather strange case. It's an article about a prior AfD and a Washington Post article on AfD generally that leads with the aforementioned AfD specifically. One source doesn't quite cut it for most notability considerations, and I don't think a write-up in the Post makes it a "controversy" per se. The article is quite well written and flawlessly formatted, but it, like the band, is not notable enough to be included in wikipedia. Kchase T 03:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC) Nomination withdrawn I am now in agreement with Antepenultimate's point below that the news links, at the very least, ought to be merged into the Criticism article. There's not really a section of the Criticism article that covers the criticism the Foundation Office is getting phone calls about all the time: that Wikipedia's notability guidelines disallow a compendium of all human knowledge. Though we usually hear about this criticism here in deletion discussions on Wikipedia, the media has started covering it enough that a general mention at the article is appropriate. I don't agree with this criticism, but that doesn't matter. Please note that, per WP:SK a withdrawn nomination doesn't close a discussion.--Kchase T 21:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. One Washington Post article does not a controversy make. -Amarkov blahedits 03:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - for now - This article is approximately one day old and has a single editor with a brief edit history. If this is an actual controversy, we should wait and see if the article develops. I suspect that, since the original band article was deleted, nobody will come looking for an article about the deletion of another article. But, we should give it 2 weeks and see what happens. The story could get picked up by more media outlets which might increase attention. - Justin (Authalic) 04:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That would be crystal ballism and is covered under WP:NOT. If it does become notable then an article may be warranted but I don't think we should keep it just in case. --67.68.152.133 05:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Evidently, the best puns are unintended.--Kchase T 02:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, modesty? :) I'd be claiming it even if it was coincidental. Deizio talk 02:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete. Ironically, this desperate attempt to circumnavigate a page protected from re-creation didn't get speedied. I see the thought process that went into this one going something like this: "Hmm, how else can I get a link to my band's MySpace page on Wikipedia?" -- Antepenultimate 17:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additional sources = change in vote, see below. -- Antepenultimate 10:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The article's creator has added a few more sources: [8], [9].--Kchase T 00:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Not a "controversy," just one article in the Post. Apparently this was also mentioned in a blog. This and $1.25 gets you a cup of coffee. JChap2007 01:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Help. Hi everyone, thank you for helping me improve the article by providing information here on this delete page. Thank you in particular to Amarkov, Justin (Authalic), Metropolitan90, Robertissimo, PMAnderson, and Just H. I just got out of an interview with CBC Radio One. They did a segment on "The Shiny Diamonds Controversy" after they read the Washington Post article. Just so you know, I have never met anyone in the Shiny Diamonds band before... in fact I just heard their music for the first time today (on myspace). I live in Paris, they live in Vancouver. You can google me if you don't believe me. I'm just very passionate about keeping this type of information in wikipedia. It makes me sad to think of wikipedia as the sum of SOME human knowledge. Can someone help me out with improving the page so that it is less likely to be deleted. I don't even know how to reference a radio broadcast. I could really use some help. Thank you in advance. Leigh8959 03:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • But if I thought that a rewrite could possibly make this good enough to keep, I wouldn't have said to delete, and I probably would have rewritten it enough to establish notability. But there is no controversy, therefore there aren't sources, therefore no rewrite could make it better. -Amarkov blahedits 05:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The citation template for radio broadcasts can be found at Template:Cite episode if that will help. --Metropolitan90 05:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I actually think if there's a radio interview on this issue (raising the number of sources to three) that would probably be enough to keep it. Even if it gets deleted this round, there's always deletion review after the show airs. We'll see what happens; I'm waiting to hear more.--Kchase T 05:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I heard about this whole thing on the radio this afternoon and thought it was interesting enough to start up a Wiki page for. It's not even really an issue or news but if these guys were talked about on CBC Radio 1, which is as relevant as it gets for Canadian broadcast, it warrants a mention either in their own page or a 'Shiny Diamonds Controversy' page. I looked on Google and there are dozens of articles quoting or elaborating on the whole thing. I liked what the guy in Paris said about the sum of all knowledge. If the internet has fairly limitless potential, why should Wikipedia users be waging some sort of battle against this very Wikipedia-related issue being mentioned on the site? It's all very strange and I expect to see more news articles popping up daily about this, as they seem to have been doing for weeks now.--Mercury0T 07:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC) — Mercury0 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Changing vote to Merge news article links with Criticism of Wikipedia, under "dated links." Let's not lose our sense of perspective here: To call this a true controversy, or to even say that Shiny Diamonds is the main focus of these articles, is misleading. They are being used as a current example (one of many, it should be noted) for an opinion article, and they are then mentioned (very briefly) in another editorial (about the original opinion article). -- Antepenultimate 10:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A-squared

A-squared (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Seems like an ad. Navou talk 04:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy delete, no assertion of notability. Guy (Help!) 10:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Newfoundland Jungle

Newfoundland Jungle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Seems like promotional material for a business; probably exists but nothing comes up for them on Google Daniel Case 04:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was No consensus. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 06:04Z

List of LGBT Jews

List of LGBT Jews (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Categorize - There is no need to list LGBT Jews by their occupation, which seems to be the only reason this list is even maintained. This should be converted into a category to better organize its contents per Category:LGBT Christians. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 04:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: A list allows for a brief, one-line bio, which can help readers find the person they're looking for. A list also allows for the inclusion of red links to be filled in later, while a category does not. I do not have a vote one way or the other. — coelacan talk — 04:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - list is better than a category because such a compilation requires sourcing. That should happen in the individual articles but people looking at the cat cant see sources. savidan(talk) (e@) 05:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment With lists such as these, there are always thorny issues about categorization. For example, I was very surprised to discover that H.L.A. Hart was a homosexual, until I made the further discovery that he was married with four children and that it is some unnamed, unsourced "biographers" who claim that he's gay. I'm not going to do anything about it because doing that would involve a revert war and most likely some nasty attacks on my own motives. I would like it if someone would properly source this list and indeed leave out the ones whose sexuality is based on conjecture, or by a claims made by a minority of their biographers (who after all often make such claims to generate attention; if you don't believe me think of Albert Goldman's scandalous biography of John Lennon [which ironically enough accused him of homosexuality-- add Lennon to the list of LGBT Britons!]), but this is wikipedia after all and it is expecting too much for people to follow historical methods. Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi
    • After looking further at the list, I'm changing my vote to Delete because many of these people are not sourced (Jonathan Taylor Thomas, etc.). Sourcing should be mandatory in this situation because of the markedly personal nature of claims about people's sexuality. And to be frank, how would you react if your sexuality were unfairly miscategorized like this? Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi
  • Keep. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 06:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Well, it can be expanded and cleaned up. There have been far less notable lists that are still here on Wikipedia after passing AFD. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 06:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and cleanup, such lists do have encyclopedic value. Terence Ong 07:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The nominator asks for this to become a category, however it does not meet the criteria mentioned in our guidelines at Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Special subcategories which says that Dedicated group-subject subcategories, such as Category:LGBT writers or Category:African American musicians, should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. You must be able to write a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) for the category — if this cannot be done, then the category is not valid. I don't think there is anything distinct and unique about being LGBT and Jewish, and I speak from personal experience. Categories have entries without citations, and categorization policy general guideline (#8) says, "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category. A list might be a better option." This guideline was written for examples such as this case. -- Samuel Wantman 08:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised you can't think of anything distinct and unique about being LGBT and Jewish. Have you seen Trembling Before G-d? There are gay synagogues, such as Beth Chayim Chadashim. In recent decades there has been a lot of controversy within Judaism about LGBT issues. While some of this is similar to the controversy in Christianity, there are also substantial differences. Dfeuer 07:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. ditto Rearden Metal 08:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or at least substantially prune because most of the list is unsourced and in the same time it is about biographies of living persons (WP:LIVING !). Therefore for every person in the list we need a proof (=reliable reference) that he/she identifies as 1) Jew and 2) LGBT - otherwies it is libel and WP:OR.--Ioannes Pragensis 11:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. As people can see from the page history, there has been an effort to work the source problem for this list. If someone wants to prune the names for whom there are no sources while references are found, fine. I'm focused on sorting ref problems on other similarly unsourced lists and just haven't got round to it. But I think a list is more useful than a category- a category would simply give each person's name. This list provides brief information about each person (and hopefully a quickly checked reference), without having to visit each person's article in turn.- WJBscribe (WJB talk) 12:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I tried it for the first three paragraphs. More than 50% deleted because of WP:LIVING (I checked also their WP articles for sources and references and found no relevant ones for at least one of the two claims). And most of the rest are dead persons, very often still with WP:V issues (I added the cn tags). My conclusion is that the list in this form is very bad and should be quicly pruned or deleted - WP:LIVING is really an important issue.--Ioannes Pragensis 21:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, so would you have a problem if I simply went through and delete all the unsourced ones? Because right now only about five of them are sourced. This is crazy; the list will never be sourced properly. Also, I am concerned that Wikipedia should not be a forum for outing people: the risk of error in such assessments (esp. by activists who are not disinterested observers) is much too high. Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi
  • Keep. Source better. Haiduc 12:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:LIST WilyD 16:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Terence Ong - Nico2001 22:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This kind of list-making is too easily abused by those who wish to promote, vilify, or "out" people — depending on one's agenda — regardless of unbiased evidence of this socially powerful categorization. One major benefit of using Wikimedia categories instead of lists is that the claim for inclusion or exclusion is made in the subject's article (with the cat tag), not an external list. This means that the people most likely to have sourced information to confirm or refute this categorization will see the claim as it is made or removed. The usefulness of this approach renders the "list can include source info" argument, which is already largely bogus, superfluous as well. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who hangs out at CFD, this amuses me because CFD has been moving in the direction of getting rid of categories like this because they cannot be sourced. Jeffq wants to get rid of the lists because people who edit the articles won't see the information posted in the list. So nobody really wants to deal with this problem. I see a few possible ways to solve it:
  • Avoid having lists OR categories for controversial subjects that require verification. This option probably has no possibility of garnering community approval (I wouldn't support it either).
  • Change the WikiMedia software so that lists can be created dynamically from database entries, and those entries would come from any article. So in effect the list entry for a person would be maintained in their article, and anyone looking at the article would see all the information that is posted about that person in lists.
  • Keep the info in lists.
  • Keep the info in categories.
Since the first option is unlikely and we'll have to wait for the second, that means either lists or categories. The big advantage of lists is that there is a history, you can see the citations, and the history shows who was added and who was removed. While it is possible to dig and find who added someone to a category, it is near impossible to find out who has been removed from a category and by whom. The relevant citations might be buried in the article or talk page. For these reason, I'd say, keep this info as a list and not a category. Require citations and remove anything that is uncited. This is how Films considered the greatest ever has worked for over a year without any major problems. -- Samuel Wantman 23:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lists seem to me the way to go. They allow for a brief reason for inclusion and a reference backing it up. The problem here isn't the topic or the list, its the fact that people have been added without references. WJBscribe (WJB talk) 00:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Do you assume good faith, Jeff? Kari Hazzard (T | C) 17:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For the most part, yes. But I am highly skeptical of the agendas of folks so very interested in categorization by sexual preference, especially since much of the vandalism I revert at Wikiquote appears to be from people who perceive homosexuality as a slur on a person's character. I've done a lot of research on people for articles on WP and WQ, and while I find their professions, their nationalities, and sometimes their ethnicity and gender important, the only people for whom this tidbit seems important are people on the forefront, voluntarily or not, of the pro-homosexuality/anti-homosexuality melee. Is there some encyclopedic purpose for identifying the sexual preferences of all Jews covered in Wikipedia?
If so, I think a category would be easier to maintain (and prevent vandalism or unsourced rumor-mongering), because the people who know the subject best will see the addition, deletion, and alteration of this information.
Samuel Wantman's point of the source of this information being "buried" in the article actually bolsters my argument, as the cat tag would be in the place where the sourced data is, rather than having to duplicate the source in both the article and the list for each and every person. His no-history point is only valid if you assume the people maintaining this information are list watchers, not subject watchers. It's like assuming that you need a list for trumpet players because the editors working on each trumpet-player article can't be trusted to categorize their subject, when the reverse is actually more accurate: subject editors are far more likely to command accurate information than list editors. But I appear to be in the minority on this opinion. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep per smauel wantman & list also allows redlinks, (there are a few there as it is) also people sometimes 'randomly' remove certain categories from articles, less likely to do so from a list? obviously has to be sourced & verified (this is policy, remember?)  ⇒ bsnowball  09:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I think this list is too difficult to source because the classification of so many on the list rests on usually unverifiable claims made by biographers of homosexual liasons. Also, I find the definition of Jewish POV: is it an ethnic or religious definition? I think this list, finally, forces Wikipedia to take a position on Outing. Is it morally justifiable to "out" people who don't want to be perceived as gay? How much should we respect the decision to "stay in the closet." When Wikipedia lists men and women as "gay" (without the context and qualification provided by a full biographical article) who wished to keep their sexuality a guarded secret, I think WP is sending a message that sexuality is inevitably a public affair and that it is okay to "out" people. Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi
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The result was KEEP (no consensus). Larry V (talk | contribs) 23:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eric Goldman

Eric Goldman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Law professor who predicted Wikipedia's imminent demise in his blog. Seems to be the only reason he has an article. NTK 04:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

comment I've added a link to a Law.com article that quotes him for commentary on an internet law issue, which should provide citation of his notability. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 04:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Merge to Cornell University Glee Club. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 06:00Z

Cornell Sherwoods

Cornell Sherwoods (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Prod was contested. College a cappella article which does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the verifiability requirements of WP:RS/WP:NOR/WP:V. The closest they come to a claim to notability is having travelled somewhere. However, these claims can only be sourced to their website (and perhaps their school newspaper); such tours would have to be the subject of non-trivial secondary-sources, which also are required to establish the notability of a group generally. Claims from their own website are insufficient. savidan(talk) (e@) 04:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Copy and paste vote again. Nothing to do with this group. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Why was the comment crossed out? Xiner 19:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've already resolved the copy and paste issue with sharkface. This article does have an external link to the hangover's article which I mistook for their own website. Honestly, though, that just makes their notability worse. savidan(talk) (e@) 07:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Having taken a second look at the gleeclub article, I'd be amicable to a merge, although, given the lack of reliable sources for most of the info in this article, I imagine that the amounnt of material in it that I think is suitable for merging is much less than you would like to merge. savidan(talk) (e@) 07:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It is as valid to cut and paste the same comment on a series of mass produced AfDs, if it fits each one, as it is to say 'delete per nom' or to cut and paste the AfDs. Edison 18:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is. My main objection was that the vote claimed to be specific to the group in question (i.e. albums plus g-hits). savidan(talk) (e@) 23:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep They had a notable alum, toured internationally and put out numerous albums back when that was an expensive proposition of stamped out vinyl rather than knowing someone whose PC could burn CDs or putting files on a download site. I could only find 1 passing reference in a New York Times article, about an alum. Edison 19:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Passing NYT reference is a perfect example of trivial news coverage, which does not warrant notability. Not every proper noun which recieves passing reference in the NYT should = an article. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please do not keep introducing the same strawman argument of not wanting to create an article for "every proper noun" in a newspaper, when the topic of debate is multiple reliable, verifiable, and independent coverage in more than a passing reference or directory. And please note that I did not characterize the one mention I found as more than a passing reference.Edison 15:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you agree that it was only a passing reference, and that it doesn't constitute notability, that's fine. I thought it was implied in your post (being as you voted keep) that you thought the substance of your comment justified your vote. If however, that was just an aside, I won't press the issue. savidan(talk) (e@) 21:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If it's merged, none of the uncited information about the group should be merged. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As a former college singer I am sort of taking it upon myself to fix a lot of these articles (various glee clubs and the like) and I'm trying to drum up other people to help find citations, remove promo material, etc. If/when this article ends up getting absorbed back into the Cornell Glee Club page it will be in a well-cited form, I promise.--Dmz5 03:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yak (game)

Yak (game) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

It seems to be a set of rules to a game that was just invented (WP:NFT and WP:OR. The only link is to a website in spanish (which is inappropriate, this is the English Wikipedia) -- Selmo (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was No consensus, and the article has been rewritten since nomination - no prejudice against renomination if the article still has not addressed concerns. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 05:56Z

Retrocausality

Retrocausality (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The first nomination was poorly stated; here is the real nomination

This article represents original research. From Opabinia regalis 04:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC): This is a novel synthesis of independently published claims. The physics section is, taken on its own, muddled at best; the OR is in the connection to the psychology discussion, in which each of the individual studies mentioned is either a) widely agreed to be plagued with methodological problems (PEAR), or b) entirely unrelated to the thesis (skin conductance and heart rate studies). Seriously - the creator, User:Dicorpo, has contributed nothing outside of this type of material, in particular his linkspamming of this "open access journal" (read: some guy's website) for these ideas. Also, the sources cited in this article may appear to be legitimate, but "Physics Essays" and "NeuroQuantology" are not well-regarded journals, and those sources that are reliable, are related to the psychology experiments - which, as I mentioned, are unrelated to the quantum consciousness thesis. --ScienceApologist 05:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion regarding the original debate is relegated to the Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Retrocausality (Second nomination) --ScienceApologist 05:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Endless procedural discussion which was cluttering the page has been moved to the talk page. -- SCZenz 06:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
STUBIFICATION I've reworked the article as a totally revamped stub as per JzG's suggestion Bwithh 20:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Weak keep Delete Weak keep, the sources do used to seem to kinda address the subject (in a way that they are completely irrelevant), but now they do. -Amarkov blahedits 21:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Original research. Sources are a mix of irrelevant and unreliable. -- SCZenz 06:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Those sources are unreliable. Perceptual and Motor Skills, for example, is not a respected peer-reviewed journal. Authors pay the journal to publish their articles. Other sources have absolutely nothing to do with the article's basic assertion.[16] The NeuroQuantology article addresses supercausality, not retrocausality. Doczilla 07:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This referencing of random unrelated sources along with a few unreliable sources is annoying, and seems to be happening with increasing frequency. But perhaps Retrocausality and Supercausality should have been listed together? --Philosophus T 07:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete - I will remain as a delete vote for now. Most of the sources given are not reliable sources for the purpose of an article on a scientific topic, and should be removed. MSNBC and the San Diego Union Tribune just aren't appropriate sources for this type of article. The only source that might be remotely considered reliable is the AAAS symposium. I'm concerned that there are no references to papers in proper peer-reviewed journals. Why is this? It also seems that Cramer might be trying to use a concept that he calls "retrocausality" as an abstract formalism for dealing with entanglement, and the popular press is presenting it as traveling back in time. But even then, some of the things don't make sense to me. Cramer's presentation says "the present can affect the past, and the future can affect the present ... retrocausality is perfectly permissible within the known laws of nature". I would very much like to see an explanation as to how this does not violate causality, and how one can have that sort of "retrocausality" without tachyons that cause a breakdown in energy conservation. Finally, none of the sources given are suitable for a scientific article according to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience. --Philosophus T 06:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, reliable sources are needed for WP:V. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 08:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per nomination. Mike Peel 09:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete - This seems like some type of strange metaphysical ramblings that are inappropriate for Wikipedia. Dr. Submillimeter 10:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Stubify Unnecessary to delete the article outright. Cut out the OR, reduce it to the basic meaning in quantum physics & philosophy based on [17][18]

[19]. I supported the relisting of this afd, but I'm still unhappy with the wrecking of the afd process here by both sides Bwithh 15:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New Scientist published a 2,425 word article on Retrocasuality in September 2006 (as referenced in my above comment). I quote: Such are the perils of retrocausality, the idea that the present can affect the past, and the future can affect the present. Strange as it sounds, retrocausality is perfectly permissible within the known laws of nature. It has been debated for decades, mostly in the realm of philosophy and... Bwithh 17:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Stub it and start work, then I'll change my !vote. Nobody here is against a good-faith contributor making a valid fresh attempt at the article, it's the nonsense we want gone. Guy (Help!) 18:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've stubbed and revamped it as per your suggestion Bwithh 20:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
New Scientist may not be a peer review journal, and its reputation has come under attack, but it's still a major, respected science news and ideas publication (by the way, the retrocausality story was actually the front cover story of that edition of the New Scientist[20]. The New York Times and the BBC have had their journalistic integrity far more widely attacked - does that mean they are no longer reliable, respected sources for Wikipedia? Bwithh 20:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've added further details on the AAAS symposium on this theme. Bwithh 20:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why are there no proper articles in peer reviewed journals? Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience - specifically, Appropriate sources. New Scientist is not to be considered a reliable source for an article that represents its subject as a scientific topic. --Philosophus T 06:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Fringe, stub, cites hype articles rather than real science. IMO, physics+philosophy for the same subject seems suspect in the first place! —Długosz December 18, 2006
Well, the new stub states that its a thought experiment concept. Anyway, take a look at Philosophy of Physics. Science and Philosophy are not opposites to each other Bwithh 22:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep in its revamped and stubified form. The proper approach to scientifically invalid concepts is to discuss them honestly and explain why they're invalid, not to pretend that they don't exist. KarlBunker 21:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. WP is an encyclopedia. Writing a tutorial on why an invalid idea is invalid is pure OR, and highly inappropriate for WP. linas 01:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepThe very thought of not having an article on something hat was a new Scientist cover story is absurd. DGG 05:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The current references make it clear that this is a topic that has been discussed, regardless of its innate veracity (or lack thereof...). Keeping OR out of the article as it goes forward is an editorial issue, not an AFD issue. Serpent's Choice 06:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC) - See below for clarification[reply]
  • keep as it stands, its a pretty poor stub about a just notable idea (the only valid ref is the ns article), but it appears to have legs. try to ensure it's very clear it's a thought experiment. (i had to link that)  ⇒ bsnowball  09:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I noted on the talk page and this AfD, the NS article is not an acceptable source for an article on a scientific topic. --Philosophus T 14:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Retrocausality made the 30 September 2006 cover of New Scientist, an international science magazine with a circulation of over 160,000 and a worldwide readership of over 670,000, and has also been covered by the general press. The popular media may not be a reliable source for what science says about retrocausality, but they are a reliable source for what the popular media say about retrocausality, which we can present. Additionally, philosophers have been publishing on retro-causation since at least the 1950s; see backward causation at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, particularly the extensive bibliography. Tim Smith 16:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Finally a more scholarly source for a portion of the article, and other references we can consider using. Also, I agree about having an article about what the popular media say, but I'm not sure what such an article should look like, and would appreciate it if you could help in that regard. --Philosophus T 21:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It would be great if we could get an article out of this that was of the caliber of the standford encyclopedia entry. Unfortunaely, given the experience I've had with WP, this seems unlikely.linas 01:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why my vote is still to delete, especially as it seems that the article is soon to become part of a battle over Luigi Fantappiè as well. --Philosophus T 16:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to time travel. --EMS | Talk 21:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The stub is better than the original, but as of this moment it still contains not a single citation to a peer-reviewed *printed* article on retrocausality. The AAAS symposium is a step in the right direction, but oral presentations aren't citable. We can't go back in time to listen to them, as it were. It seems not a coincidence that nobody can find *anything* peer-reviewed written by John Cramer on this subject. EdJohnston 04:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    But does that mean we shouldn't have an article, or just that the article should make clear that it's a vague idea and not peer-reviewed scientific work? It's also possible we already have some article on the arrow of time somewhere, that we should redirect to, but that can be considered after this AfD. -- SCZenz 05:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
...at arrow of time, in fact. Serpent's Choice 05:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note that, despite snarkily providing that article link, I do not advocate merger. The arbcom case dictated that even patently wrong ideas that meet inclusion standards should be covered, but that we should take caution not to conflate them with established views (or, often, with science at all), and should give due weight to whatever science and established, peer-reviewed philosophy have to say that falls into the issue. That means, by the way, that we should consider rewriting this article in favor of Feynman's depricated theory of the reverse-causal positron (Physical Review 76) and its refutation by Earman, tachyon theory by lots of people (Bilaniuk was in Physics Today 22, for one) and its refutation by Recami, Price's 1996 discussion about boundary conditions, and probably de Beauregard's quantum paradox work (although I am not familiar with it, and it is mostly in Italian). Serpent's Choice 05:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Who is "we"? When a capable author who is knowledgable (or at least acquainted) with Feynmann's ideas shows up, and shows the interest in writing about them, then this person should be encouraged and aided. That person may show up next week, or may not show up for half a decade or more. In the meanwhile, we shall have a stub that attracts oddball, factually incorrect edits, building up a crunchy crust of cranky, crappy edits? Who shall have the energy to maintain the cruft patrol? linas 18:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

81.132.177.55 23:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Keep Bizarre debate. Clearly retrocausality exists as a theory whether or not we're able to find credible sources for it. Why not have an entry that informs of the concept, but emphasises how its scientific basis is at absolute very best tremendously shaky. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of general interest, not a dictionary of science. It'd be highly pedantic to delete the entry altogether.[reply]

I've now added this ref to the article Bwithh 01:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep ... and please note that I've completed a fairly extensive rewrite of the article from its intermediate stub state, citing topics in both philosophy and science (and trying to preserve a bright-line distinction between the two), referring to several important existing Wikipedia articles, and offering references to (among other places) Physical Review, and Review of Modern Physics. The article bears little, if any, resemblence to its form at the start of this AFD. I have hopes this will satisfy all involved parties. Serpent's Choice 10:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. (I'm Still Not Over You)

P.S. (I'm Still Not Over You) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Per WP:CRYSTAL,WP:N, an unreleased single (still 4 months off) can't be notable yet. Also see AfD's for the album and the other single, By Yo' Side Tubezone 05:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clearydale farms

Clearydale farms (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

A dairy farm in Ontario, with lots of pictures. Only the most weasel-worded attempts at notability (despite the placement and removal of a tag), such as "one of first in Ontario to use irrigation to spread manure". No references, either. Calton | Talk 05:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 08:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

William Morris Hall

William Morris Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Non-notable hall at Loughborough University, article only serves to list students on the hall committee Steve (Slf67) talk 06:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete as G11 and G12. Kusma (討論) 10:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Benjamin Dwyer

Benjamin Dwyer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Vanity biog for nn composer. Fails WP:COI and fails to meet WP:MUSIC Pathlessdesert 23:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 05:50Z

Route 66 (film)

Route 66 (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball Stifle (talk) 20:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: This does not seem to be correct. Or rather, if it was, they are now planning on using that title for another movie per [21] & [22] among others. Whether there are enough sources to justify an article on this planned movie, I'll leave to others, but it shouldn't be redirected to Cars. -- JLaTondre 23:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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comment Well, it was in Variety which makes it a source, however, I'm not sure that this film is going to be made. I do think some sort of redirect to Cars would be appropriate, but if this movie ever pans out, that would have to take precedence. Not going to say keep or delete, but I could go either way. FrozenPurpleCube 07:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Sandstein 20:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Puss in Boots: The Story of an Ogre Killer

Puss in Boots: The Story of an Ogre Killer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Rampant crystal-ballery, a movie that may or may not be released and isn't scheduled to come out for another 5 years. Stifle (talk) 21:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. It's not "may or may not" at this point. Confirmed here: "We will have the ['Puss in Boots' spinoff] movie � it is interesting to do a movie only with the character � called 'Puss in Boots: The Story of an Ogre Killer.' It would be between the third and the fourth 'Shrek.'" Crystal-ballism only qualifies on things without attention. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was No consensus. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 05:49Z

onedotzero

Onedotzero (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Doesn't assert notability, no references, reads like ad copy.

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:17, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Songs about places

Songs about places (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) -- (View AfD)

This is an unnecessary list; everything here is better covered as a category, namely, Category:Lists of songs and its subcategories. Crystallina 06:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:17, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ryan Cohen

Ryan Cohen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Autobiography that fails WP:MUSIC. Deprodded. Neil916 (Talk) 07:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 08:34, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Class Notes

The Class Notes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Prod was contested. College a cappella article which does not meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC or the verifiability requirements of WP:RS/WP:NOR. Only claim to notability is performing concerts at their own Cornell and travelling; travelling only if it rises to the level of a "concert tour reported in reliable sources"; not if the only one who took note of it was the group itself or its local college newspaper. Multiple, non-trivial secondary-sources are required to establish the notability of a group. Claims from their own website are insufficient. savidan(talk) (e@) 07:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Me too!--Dmz5 17:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Where are these groups you speak of? savidan(talk) (e@) 21:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can start here: Category:Musical groups; there appear even at a casual glance to be some non-notable bands hanging out in that cat. JDoorjam Talk 22:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 08:34, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Supercausality

Partner artilce to retrocausality which is also up for deletion. This article is even worse having no sources that follow its reasoning and being almost completely original research amalgamation. In particular, the energy equation quoted is a pretty famous result from special relativity and certainly has nothing to do with causality in its bald form. The term itself is not used, and even the reference to Einstein is inappropriate (since German words are not neologisms when they are squashed together: Einstein wasn't referring to a new concept, he was describing the forward arrow of time when he used the term).

--ScienceApologist 07:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Unsourced article presents itself as science, misrepresenting the information it throws out there. The energy equation is thrown in, creating the illusion of meaningful when it's actually irrelevant. Article is poorly written, violating rules regarding OR, neologisms, and probably POV. POV is invoked if this is simply an interpretation instead of deliberate misrepresentation. At best, the information that would remain after deleting the bogus part of its contents would barely merit a dictionary entry. WP:NOT Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Doczilla 07:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy delete WP:CSD criterion A7. Guy (Help!) 10:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Robe.

Robe. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Massive unreferenced and unwikified text dump, doesn't seem to pass WP:MUSIC. I'm thinking this might be a copyvio. Contested prod. MER-C 07:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Flyer Frizbee

Flyer Frizbee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Non-notable game, seems to still be in the "stuff made up one day" category. Contested prod. MER-C 07:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 07:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Paolo Rozzotto

Paolo Rozzotto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Was proded and prod2 removed by author without comment now to Afd. Non notable guitarist, very few Ghits, no assertion of notability, reads like a babel/fish translation -- John Lake 07:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 08:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yiffstar

Yiffstar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Nominated for AfD by SchmuckyTheCat with comment "No sources. No notability. No anything." AfD closed out-of-process by Quarl. I'm re-opening the AfD - my opinion is Neutral (for now). Tevildo 16:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 07:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PeerStream

PeerStream (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Fails WP:SOFTWARE, no assertion of notability. Contested prod. MER-C 07:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:34, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. couch

Mr. couch (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

NN band, claim to notability is "They have recently been interveiwed on C4's Live at Yours. The interview lasted about 45 minutes and was aired about 4 weeks ago", which is unreferenced. No album releases yet. Article editor disputed speedy deletion tag so I am bringing to AFD for consensus. Neil916 (Talk) 08:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete ~ trialsanderrors 04:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Small Device C Compiler

Small Device C Compiler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Bump from speedy. Neutral. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-18 08:21Z

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The result was delete. Proto::► 11:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sensation (event), Sensation White, Sensation Black

Sensation (event) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sensation White (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sensation Black (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Bump from speedy. Neutral. If kept, recommend merging the three. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-18 08:23Z

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  • Delete Article as written is spam WVhybrid 06:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 06:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This article should be kept as this is clearly a major event in Europe and especially in the Netherlands where seats for Sensation white (40 000) usualy solds out in hours. If the article seems too close to spam, maybe a NPOV would be more appropriate than deletion, as this event would surely reappear on the encyclopedia. Sensation has detractors and some factual informations about this can be found to correct the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.224.48.80 (talk • contribs).
  • Keep Sensation (event), merge the other two into it. Although currently lacking secondary sources, it does appear to be real and notable. --- RockMFR 05:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was speedy delete as a short article with no context. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 11:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of Israeli painters

List of Israeli painters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

What is the point of this list, when we already have category:Israeli painters? Aleph-4 08:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete as it does not assert the importance or significance of its subject. - brenneman 11:53, 18 December 2006

Bilişim Kulübü

Bilişim Kulübü (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) — (View AfD)

Tagged as speedy A7 (no assertion of notability) but passed previous AfD in 2005. Looks unlikely to pass current WP:WEB, though.}

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The result was Redirect to Catholic Church hierarchy. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-27 05:47Z

Catholic-Hierarchy

Catholic-Hierarchy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I created this article. The Catholic-hierarchy.org website is a very useful, and, as far as I can tell, reliable, resource for data on Roman Catholic ecclesiastical organisation and for biographical information on the higher-ranking clergy. This article is internally linked from a number of different Wikipedia articles, including Pope Benedict XVI. Some more pages link directly to the website. And I am pretty sure it would be useful as a source for many additional articles.

Now an anon has tagged it with {{db-web}}. I don't think a useful quality resource such as this should be treated the same as some random ephemeral forum for teenagers, just as we don't (or shouldn't) treat academic journals the same as Barbara Cartland novels. On the other hand, I can't quickly find any good third-party references. I would be grateful for some help with that. Is it really possible that nobody has written about this database? In case no references can be found, I would suggest keeping it and moving it to project space, as it remains a useful resource that Wikipedia editors should know about. U◦p◦p◦l◦a◦n◦d 08:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 08:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Kovach

Tom Kovach (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Bump from speedy. Neutral. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-18 08:53Z

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

VCL (Vixen Controlled Library)

This article was previously nominated for deletion. The result of the debate was keep.
VCL (Vixen Controlled Library) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

2nd nomination. Unsourced. Non-notable to anyone but an obscure sexual fetish group. No movement to source a single thing on this article since the first nomination. SchmuckyTheCat 08:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note Calling it "furrycruft" isn't really a convincing argument as it doesn't really address any issues listed at Wikipedia:Deletion policy. See WP:IDONTLIKEIT. —Xydexx 06:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete or chainsaw merge. The reason I'm now grudgingly saying this should go is basically the same reason I gave for Yiffstar's deletion. I'm standing by my position from the previous AfD that the site is widely known. However, I feel that an external link, possibly a very brief discussion, in an appropriate article is all that is really needed. Non-furries aren't likely to find the history of the site fascinating enough, and furries are probably there just to look at the pretty pictures. We have WikiFur for this sort of stuff. And Carthago must be deleted I hate verifiability as the only deletion argument, no matter how you phrase it it comes across as a cop-out. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 12:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't particularly enjoy just using 'V' as an argument either, AFD discussions should be more than that. However, when trying to hold the balanced view (IE holding up WP's rules against its own bedrock of being about providing information and discussing that comparison in AFD), this is often used as leverage to keep articles which do not belong. It shouldn't be, but it is, making it more difficult to hold balanced discussions when they are indeed necessary, more's the pity. I quite agree with you that VCL is an important website within the furry community, but that there's no material out there to make an article from. What is there to say about this site? "It's full of furry pics - if you want furry pics go there." That's it, in a nutshell. The way to provide that is as an external link from the main furre article or by providing a link to WikiFur which will doubtless have an article. I would have liked to have summarised all that in my 'vote', but I grow tired of some contributors insisting the grass is blue and the sky is green, just to keep articles which are clearly not suitable for WP. QuagmireDog 13:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
VCL is already an external link on the Furry fandom article, as is WikiFur which in turn has an article on VCL. QuagmireDog 14:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 04:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fire When Ready

Fire When Ready (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

Fails WP:BAND, only one album, non-notable band. SkierRMH 09:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tagged {{db-afd}}. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

L2walker

L2walker (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) -- (View AfD)

A cheat program for a game having no assertion of notability Delete Steve (Slf67) talk 09:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - fails WP:SOFTWARE, zero news ghits. MER-C 10:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per failing WP:SOFTWARE. May I point out WP:SOFTWARE is currently in development. MER-C, just remember ghits are not always a good guide to the notability of the article. Yuser31415 (Review me!) 00:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see, I see. I misunderstood; thinking you meant the game had no assertion of notability. I still don't think it should be deleted as it's relevant and technically correct. Maybe merged with the Lineage 2 article? Due to its subject matter, it would fit perfectly in Section 5 entitled Botting.
  • - How about the fact that l2Walker allowed for some of the most profitable real money trading companies like IGE to become not mere 'gamers with bucks on ebay' but full-fledged businesses?
  • Great references! Unfortunately they are for Lineage II (which I do not doubt is a notable subject) and not L2Walker which is the subject of this AfD. --Steve (Slf67) talk 09:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • A huge problem with tracking down l2walker usage or stories about it come in part from the fact that most people (even players who use the program for non-monetary purposes) will deny using it, since even suggesting that you might use it could get you banned. Most forums dedicated to the game actively censor discussion about the program, and the official lineage 2 forum policy dictates that any discussion about it can get your thread locked or deleted, with your account having the same done to it. Mentioning the program any other way than referring to it in the third person (That program, The program, IT, the program which shall not be named, etc) can get your post edited and/or deleted. NCsoft NA representatives in official threads on the subject even refrain from mentioning it, except by slight reference:
1. Gameguard works! No tool will ever stop all bots from working. Gameguard has stopped many 3rd party programs from working. Yes, I know which one it has not stopped. Look at it this way, if there is only one enemy for me to combat, it is much better than 20 (amount of high level botting programs before GG.) - Emphasis added [28]
Please remember to send any reports about specific programs through the "Ask a Question" link in the Support Center – do not post the names of these programs. We are aware of most programs in use, but please send us any additional information you feel might be helpful. [29]
l2walker is infamous in that regard, because it *is* the one that hasn't been stopped, and has not been stopped during the last several years of Lineage 2's existence. Its kept the real money traders in business in lineage, and kept legitimate players from competing normally against others. In short, its usage has been a constant plague upon the players of Lineage 2. Removing this article would just serve to further censor a product that, for good or worse, affects the majority of the million-strong player base for this game across the world.
Finally, talk about the program has been published. When I get home I will find the actual article, but its use was mentioned in a gaming magazine article about real money trading during 2005, specifically mentioning Lineage 2. 12.110.71.30 22:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Speedy delete as compellingly argued below. Guy (Help!) 10:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reinaldo Arifin

Reinaldo Arifin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) — (View AfD)

WP:COI and probable hoax, since "Reinaldo Arifin" gets 0 Google hits and the article was made by User:Reinaldo arifin. Danny Lilithborne 09:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 08:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Beautiful Game (football podcast)

The Beautiful Game (football podcast) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Bump from speedy. Neutral. Talk page asserts notability. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-18 09:29Z

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The result was speedy as requested. - brenneman 11:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Until June

Until June (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable band, fails WP:MUSIC, no discography, no tours, & crystalballing SkierRMH 09:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was KEEP (no consensus). Larry V (talk | contribs) 00:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Three Great Powers

The Three Great Powers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Bump from speedy. Neutral. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-18 09:35Z

Reply: You haven't seen the Mortal Kombat pages then I take it. This is nothing compared to that. There is a lot of info people want to talk about on certain topics I guess, I'm saying that for all the fictional universe base Wikipedia pages, not just One Piece ones. Even the Donkey Kong games have expanded like the One Piece pages. Angel Emfrbl 19:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete We have articles for each of the entries on this page already. This page was made without being discussed by everyone working on theOne Piece pages. We have enough One Piece pages without ones for trivial things like this. Those other paes that contain the info for this go into things a lot better then this page, this page seems to be designed to be a short summery page nothing else. Bottom line - the page is uneeded reguardless. Angel Emfrbl 19:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and evaluate a lot more.. we got some clean up ahead of us. -- Ned Scott 19:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nomination --Mhking 19:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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