Another RAAF character known not only for his exploits in the air—which were considerable—but also for his post-military career and for never being afraid to speak his mind, comparable perhaps to fellow Group CaptainJohn Lerew. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Well structured and well written. Would be nice to create an article for the red-linked No. 72 Wing RAAF before becoming FA, and remember that punctuation marks go inside quotation marks. —Eustresstalk20:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I supported this article during its A-Class review and was impressed with its high standard and quality then. Since that time, the article has been improved even further and I have no reservations in endorsing the article's elevation to Featured status. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a great article which easily meets the FA criteria. The excellent choice of photos is worthy of particular praise. Nick-D (talk) 09:45, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Nick, and I appreciate the notice of the images, particularly as one is from me 'ole Dad's collection when he was one of those first five Wirraway pilots into Darwin, fortunately of course not the one that crashed (somewhere I have a letter to Mum where he talks about the "awful luck" of inexperienced young aircrew flying brand new and unfamiliar aircraft across the length of Australia and coming to grief at the very last moment, and noting "you didn't hear about it in the newspapers")...
At the risk of looking a gift horse in the mouth though, can you just check the query on the article talk page to do with the alterations to the Southern Command passage? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:45, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support A very nice article on a very interesting man. I do have two small points however 1) Image caption "Wing Commander Eaton (left) during coal strike in Darwin, 1940" - should that be "the coal strike" 2) Do we know any more about his first world war service with the London Regiment - when did he go to France and what engagements did he participate in? Do we know which battalion he served with? Otherwise excellent.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Jacky: 1) I avoided the definite article because I'm not sure there wasn't more than one coal strike in Darwin around that time...! 2) Added a bit more along the lines you suggested. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I assert it's Awadewit's fault that she was making me read about hymns and then all the sudden, in 24 hours, I had gotten all inspired to write this article. That would, however, neglect the fact that I really do think something about this song has a universal transformative power and that many versions I have heard, Judy Collins' among them, have been some of the most moving pieces of music I have ever known. Strangely enough, if you place a few versions back to back, it's very much like listening to different songs in each one. At any rate, let me know what I can do to improve it. Thanks. Moni3 (talk) 00:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ADD I hate to be a mooch (really), but there are no good mp3 to ogg converters for Mac laptops. There is a shape note version of this song that I can justify with a fair use rationale (but is probably in PD), hosted here: [3] Might anyone be able to convert a 30-second sample of this to ogg to place in the article? Preferably getting the beginning, fa-so-la intro before the words. Thank you in advance. --Moni3 (talk) 00:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At the risk of indicating just how hopelessly technologically stupid I am, any ideas on how to grab the mp3 format from that link so I can attempt a conversion using the program you just linked to? --Moni3 (talk) 03:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I'll give that a try. I work usually in Firefox on the Mac. Never done what you just outlined, so it's good to know. --Moni3 (talk) 13:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In refs but not notes: Martin and Spurrell (eds.)(1962); Newton (1811). The former might explain why the Martin notes include the year of publication [Martin (1950)], while others do not. • Ling.Nut07:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to their site (which I'm sure you checked), Hymnary.org is a project of the Christian Classics Ethereal Library and the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, both located at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI
Hymnary.org is being used to cite that "Amazing Grace" is Newton's spiritual autobiography. Other sources have said this as well, and in fact, people like Arlo Guthrie and Joan Baez have said that their interest in the song is because of Newton's life.
Hymnary.org is also being used to cite that "Amazing Grace" appears in over 1,000 hymnals, which I do not doubt, and its purpose in religious services. At least for this last point, I think it is wholly appropriate to state what the purpose of the hymn is, its role during a service and what message should accompany it (rather, if the song is an appropriate accompaniment for a particular sermon) according to an ecclesiastical organization, particularly in the section that discusses the multiple uses it has taken on in the last 40 years. --Moni3 (talk) 17:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a few comments. This is really good! I'll have to attend my Living Without Commas support group tonight, but I recognize it's an editorial preference so I won't complain. Nice work Moni!
I don't have a problem with Hymnary.org for what it's supporting.
I did not see any problems with the PD images.
"'Amazing Grace' is one of the most recognized songs" Dunno, but "recognized" struck my editing Spidey-sense. It seems to connote "recognize with awards" and such; do you mean "recognizable"?
"until he quit going to sea altogether and began to study theology" Suggest "began studying" for parallel goodness.
"His disobedience caused him to be press-ganged into the Royal Navy" Why say "press-ganged" here when you said "pressed" in the lead? The reader will double-take to find out of they mean different things.
"In An Annotated Anthology of Hymns, Newton's use of an expletive at the beginning of his verse is called 'crude but effective'" I didn't understand this passage. What expletive? Do you mean in the sense of meaningless filler, or an actual profanity? In either case, it's not made clear what the expletive is supposed to be.
"it has been used for a variety of secular purposes and marketing campaigns, placing it in danger of becoming a cliché." Is that attributed to Turner?
Favorite line of the article: "The pipe president of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards was summoned to Edinburgh Castle and chastised for demeaning the bagpipes."
Made some changes to the lead per your suggestion, and changed press-ganged to pressed.
The expletive in this sense is that the first line is "Amazing grace!" meant to be said or sung with some force. Not the same way...well, maybe the same tone...as one might say "shit!" But clearly not for the same purpose. I peeked at a thesaurus for "expletive" and one of the synonyms listed was "bark"... That just made me laugh. Do you suggest something else? Ejaculation? *cough* Shriek? Vociferation? Thesauruses are fun. Thanks for your review. --Moni3 (talk) 18:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An article on what some consider the highest point of Horatio Nelson's illustrious career: a British fleet, 2,000 miles from the nearest reinforcements, entered an uncharted harbour at night and almost completely destroyed a stronger French fleet anchored in an ostensibly strong defensive formation. In one stroke Nelson changed the direction of the war and achieved one of the most complete victories in naval history. The article has been dramatically expanded and improved since September and although it is long, I'm really not sure where else to cut given that two sub-articles have already been spun off the main body of text. It has over 200 citations and I feel that it now comprehensively covers this highly important battle and the events surrounding it. It has had a Military history peer review and is now ready for your comments. Many thanks.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest using {{harvnb}} for the references so that they can be linked to the bibliography section, so the user doesn't have to scroll down to look it up. Recently featured articles like Dick Turpin, which have long list of bibliographic references use it for easier reference checking.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FAs need only have a consistent referencing style (which this article does), not a specific style. If Diaa would like a different style, s/he is of course welcome to invest all of time it takes to recode the article. It is not inconsiderable. Awadewit (talk) 15:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well I am reluctant to make such time-consuming changes for what seems to be so little gain, particularly in the light of this diff, which only seems to add to the load. Can anyone explain to me what the purpose of including the date is if there are no seperate references by the same author? Diaa, are you going to make these changes or should I revert to before I started experimenting?--Jackyd101 (talk) 16:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it would be better if the references have links that go directly to the bibliographical reference, I don't care much about the style. Revert your changes I will take care of the referencing when I have some time with search and replace.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is also worth pointing out that the more code-heavy articles are, the more intimidating they are for new users. Having a referencing system that is complex deters new users from contributing and adding new references. That is one reason I tend to use the simplest referencing system I can find. Awadewit (talk) 18:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have revert back to the original. Thank you both for your input, and I have to agree with Awadewit on this one, although I have no prejudice against Diaa making these changes at a later date if they see fit to. regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 18:59, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meh. I would suggest copy/pasting the output of the current templates onto a text file, repasteing them back onto the page to get rid of the templates, restoring wikilinks italics etc., then use {{wikicite}} for the internal links. Or whatever.• Ling.Nut11:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the refs to make them linked. The Mostert book appears to have a 13-digit ISBN; the 10-digit would be more consistent. Other errors? I hope not. • Ling.Nut04:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The 13 digit is the only ISBN I could find on my rather battered copy of his book - this should be enough I think. If there are errors then please point them out.--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My coverage of the article to date is insufficient for a vote, I will revisit.
Criterion 1a
With reference to: "In spite of the overwhelming British victory in the climactic battle, the campaign has sometimes been considered a strategic success for France. Historian Edward Ingram has noted that if Nelson had successfully intercepted Bonaparte at sea as ordered, the ensuing battle could have annihilated both the French fleet and the transports. As it was, Bonaparte was free to continue the war in the Middle East and later to return to Europe personally unscathed.[189] The potential of a successful engagement at sea to change the course of history is emphasised by the list of French army officers carried aboard the convoy who later formed the core of the generals and marshals under Emperor Napoleon. In addition to Bonaparte himself, Louis Alexandre Berthier, Auguste de Marmont, Jean Lannes, Joachim Murat, Louis Desaix, Jean Reynier, Antoine-François Andréossy, Jean-Andoche Junot, Louis-Nicolas Davout and Dumas, as well as Kléber and Caffarelli who were to die in Egypt, were all passengers on the cramped Mediterranean crossing."
Avoid weasel word 'sometimes'
I don't think its weaselly in this context: It is a fact that this point has been raised, and I cite a historian who has done so. Can you suggest an alternative?--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Knee-jerk reaction to someanything :)
Perhaps "Historian Edward Ingram has noted that... and the transports. This would imply that in spite of the overwhelming..."
Alternatively, "Edward Ingram contends that the campaign can be considered a strategic success for France in that..."
I think that the MoS requirement to avoid double-linking can be taken too far in situations where there is ambiguity. I couldn't find it in the lead either, notably missing in " ...the climax of a naval campaign that had ranged across the Mediterranean..."
Overall, language is technically brilliant, but sometimes falls on the side of excessively obtuse and/or convoluted: more appropriate for a scholarly work than an encyclopedia article.
I can see your point, but can you be more specific - this is quite a complex subject and I did my best to simplify it where I could.--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Criterion 4
I'll start by saying that I am hopeless with technical image issues and will need you to be much more specific with your comments below.--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant source material, please search for higher resolution versions, as with "Nelson at the Battle of the Nile.jpg". I'm aware that these are not normally available, but would be wonderful.
Gamma correction may lead to significant improvements, especially with the above image.
Sadly, the jpg artifacts in this image renders it unsalvagable. Perhaps one day WikiMedia will be able to invest in prints.
Please check all artworks for appropriate templates, for example "Aboukir.jpg" requires work.
Note that "Battle of the Nile, Whitcombe.jpg" has a correct image template, while numerous others are described in plaintext, often incompletely, as with "Luny Thomas Battle Of The Nile August 1st 1798 At 10pm.jpg". Dhatfield (talk) 19:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, I still do not understand any of what you are asking me. Is there a link you can provide explaining the problem more clearly?
Thankyou for your interest and comments, they are much appreciated. If you have any further issues (and more detail regarding the image problems) I would be happy to make further improvements. Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further to Criterion 1a
"The battle has remained prominent in popular consciousness" should, I believe, be "the popular consciousness" although I would prefer something more punchy for the last sentence like "The Battle of the Nile has been immortalised in numerous works..." or "The legend of the Battle of the Nile perseveres..." or similar. A little dramatic, but such a good lead needs to end strongly.
"The French Directory developed various schemes to counter British opposition,..." could be phrased as "...investigated a number of strategic options to counter British opposition,..."
"Marching along the coast, the French army stormed Alexandria and captured the city,[33] Bonaparte then leading the main force of his army inland.[34]" could be rephrased "and Bonaparte led..." to read more easily.
"larger ships of the French fleet" could be "French ships of the line"?
That's not quite right - the smaller ships of the line could have entered the port, but the larger ones (80 guns and bigger) could not. I'll leave it as it is for now.--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"As a result, an alternative anchorage at Aboukir Bay was selected..." Check comma. Also, the lead alludes to the (perceived) strength of Aboukir Bay as a defensive position. It would be nice if this tied in.
I looked at punctutation and made a change, but I'm reluctant to discuss the merits of Aboukir Bay here when there is a whole section devoted to it immediately below as I'll only be repeating myself.--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"...information was finally obtained..." scans poorly, similarly the remainder of "...with his scouts..."
"...Vice-Admiral François-Paul Brueys D'Aigalliers, believed to be a formidable defensive position." in the lead appears to contradict "...anchor in Aboukir Bay, a shallow and exposed anchorage..." and "...Brueys refused, in the belief that his squadron could provide essential support to the French army on shore."
I'm not quite sure what the problem is here. The bay was a weak position, but Brueys decided to stay there to support the troops on shore and arranged his ships into what he believed was a strong formation. I'm not sure which part of this is unclear.--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps due to experience with land warfare, I associated a "strong defensive position" with geographic advantages, hence the apparent contradiction. Perhaps clarify in the body that Brueys believed that the nature and disposition of the ships constituted a formidable defense without geographic advantages. Dhatfield (talk) 19:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot make head or tail of "It is possible that Bonaparte envisaged the anchorage as a temporary base: on 27 July he expressed the expectation that Brueys had transferred to Alexandria and three days later issued orders for the fleet to make for Corfu in preparation for naval operations against the Ottoman territories in the Balkans,[44] although the courier was intercepted and killed by Bedouin partisans.[45]"
A land base for the army or a naval base? How does that connect with the expectation of Brueys having transferred to Alexandria (with or without the ships?) and how does this connect with the preparations for operations against the Ottomans? I feel like a lot of context is required to understand this sentence. Dhatfield (talk) 19:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Overall, I can't see a comparison of the number of guns in each vessel / fleet. Since weight of cannon was such a key determinant of the outcome of an engagement (as with Bellerophon vs L'Orient), this is a significant problem in reading the flow of the battle. Anyone not aware ot the significance of weight of fire in naval combat in this period could benefit from a brief introduction. Perhaps there is a link to this concept?
Thankyou very much, much appreciated. I have tried to deal with the outstanding issues in your review, but I'm afraid that I am still completely at sea regarding the image problems you have raised.--Jackyd101 (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a brilliant article, and a delight to read. I've used this campaign and battle as examples of intelligence gathering in university classes, and I have yet to read such a masterful description, explanation and summary of interpretations of the battle. This said, I have a couple of minor comments that I hope will enhance the article.
when you mention Nelson, first section, and his injuries at St. Vincent, that sentence is confusing (and long). It might be nudged Nelson was a highly successful officer who had been blinded in one eye during fighting in Corsica in 1794, commended for his capture of two Spanish ships of the line at the Battle of Cape St. Vincent in February 1797 but then lost an arm at the Battle of Santa Cruz de Tenerife in July 1797.[17]
The highly successful Nelson had been blinded in one eye during the fighting in Corsica in 1794, commended for his capture of two Spanish Ships of the line at the night Battle of Cape St. Vincent in February 1797, and lost an arm at the Battle of Santa Cruz de Tenerife in July 1797.
I wasn't totally happy with your suggested version, and I experimented a bit, eventually breaking it into two sentences and adding a little bit of detail.--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
we need an explanation of the illuminated white ensign--to the average reader, it won't be clear that ships were often damaged with friendly fire because they were confused with the enemy.
Before this time tomorrow I shall have gained a peerage or Westminster Abbey. Needs an explanation, I think. In the typically oblique style of 18th century bragging, it's fairly obscure.
Shortly after the French order to set sails was abandoned, the British fleet began rapidly approaching once more and Brueys, now certain that an attack was coming that night,.. now certain that an attack was coming that night... now expecting a night attack...
brief explanation of why the 10 year old son of Casabianca was there.
I don't actually have a source explaining why he was there, although it was not unusual for boys of his age to accompany their fathers aboard warships at that time.--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know, but we still need an explanation. You could find a source, perhaps. Somewhere in one of your books there must be a statement about why a young boys was on a ship. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Adkins, refers to children on shipboard, pp. 32 at Nile specifically (but focuses on women) and 200 and 371 (Warship Defence). See also Roy Adkins, Nelson's Trafalgar, pp 77-79. Or you could also explain the age of midshipmen...Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
re fire on the Orient, I added the word "conversely"
one more thing: you might add the first two lines of the poem, The boy stood on the burning deck/Whence all but he had fled... after you mention it. Many people would have heard those lines, but not connect the poem to the event. Just a thought. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on anImage review:
File:Seeschlacht bei Abukir.jpg: What is the title of this painting? Who painted it? When was it created and published? The source given points to Luny's Battle of Cape St Vincent, which is a different painting, and does not name this uploaded painting as The Battle of the Nile or attributes this image to Luny. In fact, it seems only the Wikiprojects have attributed this painting to Luny (was the German Wikipedia, where the image came from, the first to attribute it to him?). The data and license stated are not verified; for all we know it could be a modernist's hand at trying old painting techniques.
Whoops, somehow missed that. I have replaced it was another image that I have uploaded that definately is Thomas Luny on the battle of the Nile. Since I am fairly hopeless when it comes to images, can you provide assistance with Dhatfield's image queries above that I am struggling to understand? Also, some recent edits to the article removed the image sizes which I had set quite large on the request of an author at peer review. There seems to be some confusion on this issue - is it acceptable to set image sizes or not? Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I notice that Jappalang has done a lot of work on the images (for which I am very grateful) and I think this has probably taken care of it. Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 02:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I have recently added another image that I think excellently illustrates French dispositions before the battle. It is out of copyright, has alt text and should conform with all other guidelines. Regards--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why the french were sure of an imminent Irish uprising?
This is a slightly tricky question. There is a source referenced in the article that cites the Irish Rebellion as a factor in this campaign in the manner described. It is true that the French and the Irish Rebels had been planning the rebellion since 1794, and twice before French troops had been defeated en route to landings in Ireland, so an uprising there was on the cards at some stage. However, when the actual rebellion broke out in 1798 (precipitated by the arrest of several senior rebels by the British) it took the French by surprise and their reaction was totally inadequate, ending in disaster for both them and the Irish. This is all synthesis on my part, and has not (as far as I am aware) been connected to the campaign other than as already described in the article. I'm reluctant to add any more without reference to new sources.--Jackyd101 (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How do springs (coil springs?) on anchor cables help to turn anchored ships?
Coiling an anchor cable makes it taught (known as "putting springs on a cable"). If done at the bow and stern, the effect is to hold a ship rigid and in position (particularly if, like the British, you were unable to furl your sails in the midst of battle). By releasing these springs, a ship is able to rapidly and effectively turn to meet new dangers or targets without going through the time-consuming process of hauling in the anchor. I'm not sure whether I can properly source this explanation, and in any case I think it is a bit long to go in the article at this point.--Jackyd101 (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It might be a confusing point. All this time, I was having images of coiled springs and going "that should not be how it was done". I read your explanation above that the "spring" is the tension of the anchor cables instead of any mechanical device. Perhaps a slight explanation is in order, else others might think of metallic springs "poing-ing" off the ropes and hull. Jappalang (talk) 07:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've made an error in my reply above - I mentioned this to a friend who knows a lot more about sailing than I do and he attempted to explain it to me. The effect I described above is similar in that the "spring" is formed by the anchor cable itself, not an external device, but one of its great advantages is that you only use one anchor not two. A quick Google search confirmed his explanation (confusing though it is). I will try to briefly clarify this in the article.--Jackyd101 (talk) 18:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(add-on) "... in reference to the rewards of victory or the traditional burial place of British military heroes.": this clause seems to require a source. Jappalang (talk) 07:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have one - Nelson, who was a notorious show-off, famously quoted before the battle that by tomorrow he would have a peerage or Westminster Abbey. Most sources repeat this but I haven't yet seen one explaining it, probably on the assumption that a reader of British naval history would always know what it meant. On Wikipedia this cannot be taken for granted and a reviewer asked me to expand a bit. I have no problem removing it, but it does rather bring your point into conflict with his.--Jackyd101 (talk) 18:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tweaked the prose a bit (which seems pretty good in the first place). Content-wise, the article is very comprehensive on the battle. Jappalang (talk) 06:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the prose edits (although I had to tweak one or two that strayed slightly from the meaning of the sources) and all the image work (you might be interested to have a look at the work in progress at User:Jackyd101/Images of the Battle of the Nile too - not sure what I'll do with it at the moment though). I've done my best to answer your queries above. Regards.--Jackyd101 (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my work load has increased greatly recently (I cannot devote further time here for the moment)... I am putting in a weak support first; if my above issues have been clarified (judged either by the delegate or a concensus by other editors) then consider this a full support. Jappalang (talk) 03:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Jacky, your excellent pictures could be better seen if they were slightly larger. I see from above that at some point the picture sizes were changed, but these are such magnificent pictures that add to the quality of the article, so I think you should add the upright=1.? something parameter in the picture code. 1.4-1.75 somewhere in there. That makes it still proportionate, as I understand these things (which I don't understand well, but...). Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tried that, but it made them MASSIVE, so I've taken it down to 1.1. I don't really understand what I did, but it seems to have improved the situation somewhat.--Jackyd101 (talk) 20:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article had a good workout at its Good Article Nomination and I feel it is of quality equivalent to the other seven Banksia featured articles. For a rare and endangered plant, it is as comprehensive as it can possibly be (I think Hesperian and I have seen everything published as such on the plant to date) and has some nice images taken by an editor who made the trek out to where it grows (thanks Gnangarra!)... Casliber (talk·contribs) 03:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Am I allowed to register my '''Support''' here? I fully endorse Cas's assertion that this is as comprehensive as it can possibly be. There are some unpublished conservation reports that we haven't been able to get hold of, but in terms of published material I think we've got the lot. As for "quality equivalent to the other seven", I actually think they are getting better as we go along. Hesperian04:44, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In measurements, if you spell out the number, you need to spell out the unit of measure (doesn't mean the converse is true). Any of these changes would work in my opinion:
"one to four cm (0.4–1.6 in)" → "one to four centimetres (0.4–1.6 in)", or
"one to four cm (0.4–1.6 in)" → "1 to 4 centimetres (0.4–1.6 in)", or
"one to four cm (0.4–1.6 in)" → "1 to 4 cm (0.4–1.6 in)".
as well as variants such as "to" in the converted range rather than a dash.
A side issue. Personally, I don't like to see a mixture of centimetres and millimetres, but that's only a mild suggestion. But then I think the world would be a much better place if the CGPM had consigned "centi-" and all the other prefixes which are not powers of 1000 to the same fate as the "myria-", now obsolete because it wasn't one of the prefixes adopted in the International System of Units. Gene Nygaard (talk) 11:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support the article covers the topic well and all facts are referenced, consistant with previous featured Banksia articles. noting small bias Gnangarra00:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on image concern:
File:Banksia cuneata map.png: The base map (boundaries) seems to be traced from IBRA 6.1 (or 5.1) maps. Per commons:Commons:Image casebook#Maps & satellite imagery, tracings or re-drawings of copyrighted maps are not allowed. IBRA's authors, the Department of the Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts, said their maps are copyrighted.[7] Likewise, Western Australian Herbarium says its version is used under permission (fair use).[8]
They aren't traced. I downloaded the spatial data and rendered the map in a GIS. Data isn't copyrightable, no matter what the DEWHA have to say about their "maps". What is copyrightable is the design decisions taken in rendering the data into a map: i.e. the map projection, the background colour, line colour and thickness, the colour used to indicate distribution, etc. I made my own design decisions, so I own copyright in these maps. Any resemblance to the WAH images are merely that: resemblance. I don't know if the projection differs—I used geodetic; I don't know what WAH used—I used unbroken black lines throughout, whereas WAH use grey lines for non-provincial boundaries; I use a white background throughout, whereas WAH use light brown for land; we both used a bright red to indicate distribution, but this is utterly obvious, and I've used a smoother distribution boundary; I've cropped the western boundary much tighter than they have. The similarities you see are due not to the map design, which is copyrightable, but rather to the underlying spatial data, which is not copyrightable, and even that is a different version (IBRA 6.1 v IBRA 5.1) Hesperian15:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Data might be non-copyrightable in the United States, but Australia has copyrights for databases. Substantial use of an Australian copyrighted database constitutues a copyviolation.[9] IBRA's databases are segmentised, so it seems that this map is not using an insignificant portion of its data. Since this could be one of those grey or complex areas of law, I have asked for advice at commons:Commons talk:Image casebook#Re: Maps. Jappalang (talk) 12:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Databases, not data. Australian law essentially recognises that database design is a creative act. I have not made "substantial use of an Australian copyrighted database." A shapefile is not a database; it is nothing like a database. What I have used here is data. A database may be copyrighted, but the data contained therein remains uncopyrightable. The distinction is fundamental. If you write a biography, you have copyright over your text, but not over the sequence of life events you are chronicling. In the same way, you can copyright the way in which you organise data in a database, but the data itself is not copyrightable. Hesperian12:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From The Australian Copyright council on databasessee PDF for CompliationsCopyright does not protect facts or information.... You do not need permission to reproduce particular facts from a compilation (such as a name, address and telephone number from a telephone directory). However, you may need permission to reproduce all or a “substantial part” of a compilation. the map is based less than a third of the overall data from IBRA on the provinces and is then combined with only about 1/130,000 of the data in FloraBase. I dont see any copyright violation in realation to this map. Gnangarra13:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
... and even if it covered the entire country, there is no way a 699×936 pixel raster image could be construed as a substantial part of a high resolution vector data set. Hesperian13:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hesperian, the criteria is "quality, not quantity" of data used; the detailed geographical lines tend to indicate high fidelity reconstruction. Regardless, Kaldari's arguments (at Commons) seem persuasive. I would like to know how you downloaded the data though. I was unable to locate it at http://www.environment.gov.au/metadataexplorer/explorer.jsp (their download interface). Could you give a rough working of how to obtain the data on the image's page (Source)? Jappalang (talk) 01:42, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you think a 699×936 raster image can be used to reconstruct a high-resolution vector image without massive degradation of quality, you shouldn't be participating in this discussion.
Support A nice article, I made these edits, please check for collateral damage. Also, I'd raise the last two subheading to full headings and dump "Uses". That heading is pointless since "Cultivation" says it's useless, and the cultural bit isn't a use in any normal sense of the word Jimfbleak - talk to me?11:24, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the help. Hmm, that "Uses" section was my bad, only added recently, because the info on its use as logo and emblem were jammed into the "Discovery and naming" section, where they definitely didn't belong. Can anyone suggest a better home for that bit? Hesperian11:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
lead is thin, surely a couple of sentences could be used from the well-developed lifestyle and ecology section?
something funky is going on with the taxobox formatting
some image caption start with caps, some don't
units are given in full (metres, millimetres) and and abbreviated (cm)
I'm seeing some other minor defects like missing caps and misplaced punctuation... to save us both the hassle I'll just do a copyedit later today and report back here if anything is amiss.
Copyedit looks good - only point is if a caption is a clause and not a phrase (i.e. lacks a verb) then it need not have an initial capital or period (which is why I was trying to make them into sentences for conformity)Casliber (talk·contribs) 07:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Someone likes semicolons. I like them too, but I found their usage here bordering on excessive. In many cases they are being used to link sentences together that I though would do well individually.
the whitespace in "Cultural references" really sticks out, but I'm afraid I don't really have a suggestion how to fix it other than fill it up with more info :)
the term "genetic structure" came up in the GA review. I see it's now redlinked, but that doesn't help me to understand the concept any better.
I'm nominating this article now that it has gone through both a GAN and a peer review after that. The GAN was very thorough (at least compared to my others), and to be safe, I just went through a PR that found some other small issues that have now been fixed. This would be a boon to WP:NRHP and WP:NYCD if elevated to FA. upstateNYer00:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Alt text done; thanks.Alt text is present and is good, except that the maps' alt text needs some work. The alt text for the infobox map should say where Oakwood Cemetary is, in the context of the map; use the |map_alt= parameter of {{Infobox nrhp}}. The alt text for File:Oakwood_Map.svg should not bother to describe the colors used by the map (that is not what the map is for), but should instead convey the map's useful information, namely, the general layout of the cemetery and the location of the chapel, crematorium, etc. Please see WP:ALT#Maps for guidance.Eubulides (talk) 07:30, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "labels and notes—referred to by the Troy Cemetery Association as "cliff notes"—about the history of objects shown in the photograph."
Needs clarification—I cannot figure it out, so it's not likely to make any sense at all to anybody outside the United States. I can't figure out if it is intended as a pun or some other wordplay, an analogy, or what—must be some reason for the quotation marks. There's even a fair chance that whatever it is has gone right over the heads of the contributors to the article. My guess it that there's a real good chance that the word choice by the association has something to do with CliffsNotes (study guides primarily available in the United States), but that's as far as I get. Gene Nygaard (talk) 23:12, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's precisely the meaning; it's just a play on words. Then again, if you're an outsider that doesn't know what CliffsNotes are, you can just see it as a reference to the name they give the blurbs on the image (i.e. it's a quotation from their webpage). It works either way, whether your 'get it' or not. upstateNYer01:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What's precisely the meaning? I still don't get it. Is there a "cliff" in the photograph, so that gets involved in the pun in some way? With the lowercase "cliff", that's certainly a possibility. That's one reason it doesn't work either way—if you don't get it, that's an unexplained terminology that's totally baffling, because there is no mention of any cliffs in the area. Or what is the intended subject of these CliffsNotes-like notes--maybe that would help. Gene Nygaard (talk) 03:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
show that those words have something to do with these "cliff notes" (quotation marks in article).
Escarpment isn't proximate enough in the article for a connection to be made, even if you think most readers will know what it means. Make it clearer, if "cliff" has something to do with those bluffs.
And connect the dots to "complete overview of American history", if there are any dots to be connected—
if there is also a connection to CliffsNotes. That will, of course, entail making some connection, at the very least, between lowercase "cliff" and uppercase "Cliff". I really don't know what the word-play is supposed to involve, even now. Gene Nygaard (talk) 23:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I took the liberty of numbering your issues so I don't miss any. I have also added a more explicit reference. Responses:
There's a reference to the site that specifically uses the term "cliff notes". That is the connection.
Escarpment may not be near the discussion, but the word bluff occurs one sentence before the mention of the phrase; that is more than close enough.
Once again, the connection is a reference. They claim that the view (right or wrong, but cited as such nonetheless, hence "The Troy Cemetery Association claims") offers the most concentrated view of American history.
There is no official connection to CliffsNotes, which makes the capital vs. lowercase C discussion moot. The reference is meant to be a pun, however, should one not understand the pun (and by not understand, I of course mean not recognize), one still has the ability to understand that these notes are on a panoramaic photo overlooking the plain below a cliff, and that they exist on the edge of a cliff (bluff, escarpment, it doesn't matter), hence "cliff notes". Why the quotes? Because it's a phrase they used, therefore I'm quoting it (not withstanding the fact that they also used the quotes). They didn't use capitals, therefore I'm not using capitals. upstateNYer00:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not moot by any stretch of the imagination. The potential to confuse readers exists there on several levels. Clear writing dictates that that confusion be removed. The simplest way is probably just to remove all mention of "cliff notes", since you don't seem willing to even take a stab at any tweaking of the wording which might make this clearer. Just because one of your sources uses that term doesn't mean that we need to do so; it certainly doesn't add enough to the article to make up for the confusion it creates. Gene Nygaard (talk) 13:42, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By all means, do make it clear why you think the c should be capitalized, because (and you can see my reasons under #4) there is no valid reason because there is no actual connection to CliffsNotes. Explaining outright that there is a very minor pun to the book series would take unnecessary attention from the meat of the article. This is a minute part of the article and is intended as a passing remark, as it is. Explaining it would be like explaining a joke to someone who doesn't get it. Thankfully, we have the fallback that it has a regular and applicable meaning in the text. After going through GAN, PR, and having a number of other editors read through this article, not one has ever made a peep about any issue relating to this sentence. Before anything changes, I'd very much prefer a second opinion. Even the clearest of clear writing will confuse someone; this section is pretty clear if you ask me. upstateNYer15:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the "c" should be capitalized, especially if you make the connection to bluffs clearer. It takes separate wording to make the "C" connection, the other half of the wordplay. Remember, you clearly said above that the wordplay exists. If the connections aren't made, it is a problem. If you cannot think of some uncumbersome way to do that, you should just throw it out as an unnecessary complication. Gene Nygaard (talk) 08:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But how can the connection to bluffs be any clearer? The word is literally a sentence away from the phrase. And yes, the wordplay is there, but I've made it clear that it is not essential to understand the wordplay because it has a regular underlying meaning that any person can understand; if this were a wordplay only - with no other possible meaning - that would be different. However in this case, the wordplay is supplementary to the actual meaning. That is, if one doesn't get the wordplay, they are not at a loss for understanding the original meaning of the phrase (notes about a view from a cliff/bluff/escarpment). upstateNYer14:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia always has to have a lot of experts on the legal issues; maybe somebody can find one of them to comment on whether or not this exposes Wikipedia to trademark-infringement claims. Gene Nygaard (talk) 13:51, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're just fishing. This term was used in only one document, ever, with no notable claims toward ownership other than the implied copyright. It's not a trademark and it was never intended to be. You use the term CliffsNotes above, on a page in the free encyclopedia that is licensed CC-BY-SA, and that name is trademarked. Why do you have such an issue with a piece of minutia, but can't see that you've done much worse above? I'm liking these things together because they're both ridiculous, not because I think you should go through and delete all the references to CliffsNotes in this discussion. upstateNYer15:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. On January 5, I reviewed this article and posted my comments on the article's talk page I thought the article was close to FA, and it has since become better. It's professionally written and beautifully illustrated, and it's a fine addition to the encyclopedia. One quibble: I prefer static captions to the dynamic ones with sliders but would not withhold my support on that account. As for the "cliff notes" issue raised by User:Gene Nygaard above, the article accurately quotes and cites the source in the phrase "referred to by the Troy Cemetery Association as 'cliff notes' ". My dictionary defines "bluff" as "a high steep bank" or "cliff". I see no problem here on a literal level. As for the pun, since the source does not acknowledge or explain the pun, Wikipedia is not at liberty to explain it either, since that would involve original research. Finetooth (talk) 18:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're referring to the captions in the gallery of the Mausolea section, which I just realized this morning had scroll bars when I never meant for that to be. I fixed it this morning and they should be correct now. If they aren't, or I'm completely misinterpreting your reference to "dynamic captions", let me know. upstateNYer19:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, finetooth, if you cannot explain it without original research, then it seems logical that we cannot use it. The wordplay exists--as the nominator has acknowledged--whether acknowledged or not in the sources used. It can only cause confusion if it is not explained. If it cannot be explained, it cannot be used and still "exemplif[y] our very best work"; there is no rule that we need to use something in our articles just because one of our sources used it. Note also that just as "bluffs" is only one sentence away, so too is "most concentrated and complete overview of American history" only two sentences away in the very same paragraph. A reader is as likely to make the connection to one as to the other, or to both. Gene Nygaard (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I have no proof that it exists. Like I said, the phrase is used once in a newsletter from the cemetery. My acknowledgment of it above is simply my interpretation. I could very well be wrong, but the connection seems way too obvious for there not to be a pun involved (otherwise, why even name these things?). The phrase is backed up by a reference and the pun is not. Therefore you should be judging it based on its literal use, not on any other that may or may not have been intended. upstateNYer19:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that newsletter doesn't explicitly say it is connected with bluffs, either, does it? As a matter of fact, the most apparent connection in that picture caption is to "huge amount of American history", and not to "bluffs". Yet you have not only included that one-time, offhand, unexplained remark in a newsletter in your text here, but you have juxtaposed it to an unclear extent with not only "bluffs" but also with "concentrated and complete overview" statement. You have made enough of a connection to imply that both wordplays exist, but you haven't done so clearly enough to avoid confusion. If it were the terminology posted on a metal plaque at the site, that would probably be a different story. What you have now simply doesn't belong here. Gene Nygaard (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reponses:
Newsletter and "bluff": the newsletter need not explicitly use the word "bluff". I only used it so that the term "cliff" was not overused. It's strictly aesthetic. That said, bluff means cliff. Need a source? See Webster's or Oxford, but that's not going in the article.
The "most concentrated and complete overview" comment is from a completely separate reference.
What do you mean by "both" wordplays? There is clearly only one, it's not referenced, and it's something that a native speaker of English and person familiar with CliffNotes will most likely catch. However, the main intention is the literal meaning, which is clearly sourced.
You have two qualified and experienced reviewers here concurring that this is in fact not confusing, and that is after reading the article multiple times each. The main intention is there, clear as day, and the pun is an added bonus.
Neither wordplay is a literal one. There are no notes about the cliffs; they're about the history. Both wordplays come from the newsletter—and neither is explicitly identified as such there. Gene Nygaard (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect, they are notes about a view from a cliff, i.e. "cliff notes". You don't have the view without the cliff and you don't have the notes without the view. Therefore, no cliff, no notes, no cliff notes. But that doesn't seem to matter, because you know precisely what they are: "There are no notes about the cliffs; they're about the history." Interestingly, not once in this conversation did anyone explicitly define the literal meaning of the statement until you did in your last post. Clearly you understand it. Also, you have made absolutely no mention of a "double wordplay" until your second to last post, which makes me think you're fishing again. This is not word play and it is clear enough for the general reader, as is proven by the GA and PR reviewers. upstateNYer05:19, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's the phrase. "Scroll bars" is what I meant. When I checked just now, the "Major General Thomas" image in the Landmarks section still had a scroll bar, and three of the five images in the Mausolea section had scroll bars. Finetooth (talk) 22:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Though for "contained roughly 60,000 graves and continues to grow" I'm not convinced that two tenses work well here ? I've read through this a few times since by GA review last year and I find this as a very well-written (and illustrated) and well-referenced article that covers everything I deem of significance for the subject. As for the "cliff notes" commentary. I found this completely understandable (at least as far as is needed to understand the subject matter) when I last reviewed the article and am not of a different opinion today. - Peripitus(Talk)03:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - Pretty good. Here's my concerns:
Too many images. There's having too few images and a good amount. This makes way too many.
I very much disagree with this. The galleries are meant to give necessary architectural examples of mausolea and monuments. I don't think it detracts from or degrades the article; in fact, I think it makes it that much more appealing to the reader.
Well, below you asked me for another image, which I added; it would be the first I'd remove if I had to remove any. I still think this article is not informative enough without the galleries. What specifically about the image usage bothers you (and not just "there's too many"). Galleries are perfectly acceptable in articles, otherwise the <gallery> tag wouldn't exist.
After Citation 52 - split the paragraph in notable internments.
Done.
Citations 39 - 51 need delinking after Citation 32 has the wikilinks everywhere, its an eyesore.
Done.
References should probably be revamp for cleanliness.
Sources at that level of specificity do not exist, as far as I'm aware. I wouldn't even expect it in the local paper, but I'm not paying a subscription fee to read old newspaper articles that may or may not have the information on something that's already covered. We're lucky it was even mentioned in the NRHP nom.
The history section could use more images.
Added old image of Crematorium, but not sure if it fits well; otherwise, maxed out.
"As of 2009, the cemetery contained roughly 60,000 graves[14] and continues to grow.[2] The Association expects to be able to accept interments until at least the early 23rd century.[2]" - probably should either expand or merge with another paragraph - looks weird.
Done. Forgot to do that previously.
There is little description of the man-made lakes here. Details would be helpful.
No detail to go off of; also not really important in my opinion. They're man-made using small mountain streams, which is more detail than I think is even warranted, but I included it anyway. What else is worth knowing about a couple ponds?
They don't have names and sizes can be gaged from the map that's provided, though considering their sizes change substantially based on the season, a number is generally meaningless (this I know from personal experience, so it's OR and doesn't' belong in the article). What would constitute "etc." in this case?
Support - Very well written and an interesting read. Answers all the questions I might have about a cemetery. Sources look good and inline citing is done well. I don't think the the "cliff notes" spat above is an issue at all ; it simply is a pun that is sourced and attributed. No issue here, please move on. As for galleries, I have a general dislike for them in articles b/c it is hard to do them well. This article, however, does do them well by not only mentioning the image's subject, but describing some details. Having images to back up the mentions and descriptions is totally appropriate. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs) 03:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done this. All images are correctly licenced and attributed. Checked through alt text - one missing now added and a grammer mistake corrected. Looks good - Peripitus(Talk)00:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 82 ... "S. K. Vsekhsvyatsky,(1958), Physical Characteristics of Comets" is this a book? journal article? Needs more bibliographical information to satisfy WP:V
That conversion result has far too much precision for an "in the realm of" number; even 30 to 130 °C would overstate it, but that's probably as good as we can reasonably expect
Don't use hyphens to indicate a range when some of the numbers might be negative. It is far too confusing. Use "to" when you have things like degrees Celsius.
I would prefer having "Apparitions" right after the computation section since both of them refer to the comet's historic observations.
try to find a better name than "Designation" (it should probably be pluralized anyways); also, did you consider merging that table into the previous section? Nergaal (talk) 17:22, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comet Halley - hmm, I've never heard it called thus...?
most famous - sounds like a film star.. "best-known"?
The above points are minor quibbles. I made some minor tweaks but am happy with how it stands. Some paragraphs are a little small but hard to combine. Casliber (talk·contribs) 02:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. For the record, "Comet Halley" is actually the name astronomers prefer. Modern astronomical parlance places the name second, as in Comet Hyakutake or Comet Hale-Bopp. But Halley's Comet was named before the practice became standard. Serendipodous02:43, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support—It looks to be FA worthy.
Comment—Looks good so far, but I think it still needs a little work:
The lead doesn't seem to summarize parts of the article, particularly the structure and composition section.
The first paragraph of the "Computation of orbit" section consists of one short and one very long sentence. That makes it a little awkward to read aloud, for example. Please consider splitting into 2–3 palatable sentences.
What does '28.6' mean for an apparent magnitude? It seems phenomenally low. Is that the current value? As of what date?
The article contains "Halley-type comets" and "Halley type comets". Please be consistent.
"Changes in the flow of the solar wind can cause disconnection events; or the tail completely breaking off from the nucleus." The 'or' here is ambiguous, since it makes the sentence seem like it may be discussing two different phenomenon. Is that intended? Perhaps "..., where the tail..."?
"...the vast size..." is vague. Please give some sample values.
The citations need work:
There are inconsistent author naming schemes. For example, "G. Cevolani, G. Bortolotti and A. Hajduk", "RZ Sagdeev; PE Elyasberg; VI Moroz", "S. J. Peale; Jack J. Lissauer", and "Gladman, B.; Kavelaars, J.; Petit, J.-M.; Ashby, M. L. N.; Parker, J.; Coffey, J.; Jones, R. L.; Rousselot, P." Please pick one scheme and stick with it.
Is there a URL for "In Situ Observations of Cometary Nuclei"?
Are there ISBNs for "A Jewish Understanding of the World", "Cometography" and "Records of Halley's Comet on Babylonian tablets"? If not, perhaps add some additional publication info.
The format of the book citations is inconsistent. Compare, for example, Halley & His Comet to the Cometography citations. Does one use the citation template and the other not? Any cite with an ISBN should look pretty similar. Also the Comet Lore ref. lacks location information.—RJH (talk)
Comments—I have a minor "thing" for outer space—thanks partly to book clubs and shoot 'em ups—so I looked a bit more closely at the prose, minus most of "Structure and composition" and "Apparitions".
Alt text looks ok, since Halley is described in the text, but mixes "Comet Halley" and "Halley's Comet" (which'll it be!?). The "orbits of three periodic comets" image should get larger text—its thumbnail does not show the labels well.
Dates appear to be Month Day, Year in text andISO style in refs. I see a few Month Day, Year ref dates that should be changed for consistency. Update, 22:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC): There's a mix of "Day Month Year" without comma, "Month Day, Year", and now "Day Month, Year" with comma—again, use one for prose and one (same or different) for refs.
Both prose and ref dates are consistent now, and anyone who doesn't like "Day Month, Year" with the comma can easily replace it with the no-comma style. Good job. --anoddname03:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When did Halley's Comet get that name, anyway? Can you verify this part from the Edmond Halley article? (common knowledge?)
"In 1705, applying historical astronomy methods, he published Synopsis Astronomia Cometicae, which stated his belief that the comet sightings of 1456, 1531, 1607, and 1682 related to the same comet, which he predicted would return in 1758. Halley did not live to witness the comet's return, but when it did, the comet became generally known as Halley's Comet."
Why "rhyming with valley" twice in "Pronunciation"? (Are you concerned that the IPA text won't show up?)
"Halley is classified as a periodic or short-period comet; a descriptor for comets with orbits lasting 200 years or less."—maybe "Halley is classified as a periodic or short-period comet, one with an orbit lasting 200 years or less."
"Its closest distance to the Sun called perihelion"—I didn't know distances had cellphones! Maybe "Its closest distance to the Sun (perihelion) "? (There are already a lot of commas and parens in the sentence—should it be split? I'd like a third opinion.)
"that has its inner edge of 20,000–50,000 AU."—change "its" to "an"?
"Because its orbit comes close to Earth's in two places ..."—try expanding this sentence so that it doesn't look like a widow. If you can cleanly combine it with a prior paragraph, that'll work as well.
The "peanut" part should clarify that it's an unshelled nut, not the peanut shell.
"Two Space Shuttle missions—the ill-fated STS-51-L (the Challenger disaster)"—perhaps "... (ended by the Challenger disaster)"?
(added on 03:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)) "The media, despite the pleas of astronomers, wove sensational tales of mass cyanide poisoning engulfing the planet."—is this really neutral? The NYT article that gave Camille Flammarion's opinion says "Most astronomers do not agree with Flammarion" wrt whether the tail would even hit Earth, let alone that the cyanogen would reach people unchanged. The first two paragraphs and title are more concerning, but the tail was (or is) poisonous to some degree (until hitting the atmo). I'm not convinced this was media sensationalism (given just refs 65 and 66) so much as reader overreaction. Anyone else have thoughts?
I'm not sure exactly when Halley's Comet became Halley's Comet. I could try to look it up, but I'm not sure I'd find anything. I'm not sure what you mean by "should get larger text". I wasn't concerned that IPA wouldn't show up, but that people's eyes would glaze over the IPA. Serendipodous11:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"I'm not sure what you mean by 'should get larger text'."—The text in the image itself (File:Orbits of periodic comets.svg) should be enlarged so that it shows up as more than just fuzzy lines in the 300px thumbnail. You can also make the thumbnail 400px, but it still won't be readable, and anything bigger would probably be too wide unless you use a panorama or such. (I'm not talking about making its alt or caption text bigger; those look ok.) --anoddname11:47, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know you asked the uploader about File:Halleys comet.jpg being an own work or not, but he has not responded (and I do not think he will). This image needs to be removed from the article until a response is given or a replacement is found. The rest of the images look fine. User:Zscout370(Return Fire)07:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Orbits of periodic comets.svg - needs a verifiable source per WP:IUP. For self-made images, this would be an explicit assertion of authorship. Source for the orbital information should also be provided.
File:Halley Giotto.jpg - NFCC#10C requires a "specific" rationale and WP:FURG, incorporated therein by reference, requires a "detailed" rationale. "To illustrate the nucleus of Halley's Comet, an important aspect of the article's subject" is not a rationale, but a function. What significant contribution to the reader's understanding is the image intended to make?
File:Tapestry of bayeux10.jpg - The Tapestry of Bayeux is not a publication (the photo thereof is a derivative). The license should be one based solely on a p.m.a. duration, not publication.
I also do not agree. The photo is a faithfuls reproduction of a 2D art work and lacks any originality itself, therefore no copyright subsists in this photo. The only copyright that has ever existed is the copyright of the original work, which, however, expired long ago. Ruslik_Zero19:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't agree with what? Nowhere have I said there is a copyright in the photo or the tapestry. Please read critically; this is an issue regarding the choice of license template. Unpublished works (the tapestry) have terms based on life of the author (p.m.a.), not publication. It's a non sequitur to have a publication-based license. Эlcobbolatalk20:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I've said, "The license should be one based solely on a p.m.a. duration" and "It's a non sequitur to have a publication-based license". It already has a correct license; the issue is that it has a second, inappropriate license. Just remove the publication-based license. Эlcobbolatalk20:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You said "derivative (work)", which means that you assumed that the image has some originality. Since there is no originality, it is not a derivative work—it is just a slavish copy. In addition, a reproduction of the tapestry was published in 1856, therefore both templates are applicable. Ruslik_Zero20:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A derivative work is a defined term and has nothing to do with originality. I mentioned it because I assumed whoever applied the bonus publication license may have meant that license to apply to the photo. Publication would have to have occurred with consent of the copyright holder to be genuine; the creator of the tapestry did not publish it in 1856. This is not difficult. Эlcobbolatalk20:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's no way to locate the source, because the guy who uploaded it doesn't edit anymore. My point is that it's not just in this article, so if you want me to delete it from this one it should be deleted from all of them. Serendipodous20:16, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Halley's Comet, 1910.JPG - Source indicates date of creation only. When was it published? How can the pre-1.1.1923 publication license be substantiated?
Support. I actually do not know whether I can support or not, because I contributed some material to the article and copy-edited it, but the text looks good now. Ruslik_Zero17:36, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: please review for WP:OVERLINKing, and there are several instances of telling the reader to "see above" or "see below". This should be avoided if possible (indicates problems in organiational structure of article), but if it must be done, at least say "where". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not directly relevant to this FAC, but note that starting this September, a topic will need to have at least 50% of their articles featured to be considered "featured". Dabomb87 (talk) 01:04, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ealdgyth. The citymayors website is used as a ref for the location of Millennium Park and a very brief history of the site before development. The first chapter of Gilfoyle's book is also used as a ref here, so if need be the citymayors.com ref could be dropped, Ruhrfisch><>°°15:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I carried out a detailed peer review last month, since when various adjustments have been made to the article. Among material added is this sentence: "docents are available for the music festival rehearsals, which are well-attended." "Docent" is by no means an everyday word, and I think its use here unjustified, particularly as the link (which 95% of your readers will need to use) is spectacurlarly useless for your purposes, dealing with a different kind of docent. I strongly advise changing the word. Brianboulton (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I forgot the American English / British English confusion over wikt:docent. I changed the lead to read ...trained guides are available for the music festival rehearsals, which are well-attended. and then in the body of the article left Tony's link to museum docent but tweaked the wording: The festival is represented by a staff of trained guides, called docents, that field questions and provide educational talks during the rehearsals.[89] Is this better? Ruhrfisch><>°°01:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComments, hoping to support: I gave this a fairly extensive review at its most recent PR and hope to be supporting soon. However, I have a few issues which are just a bit more than quibbles, some which are carried over from my review.
Design and development section: Some information needs to be reordered. We should know about the Pritzker family's decision to fund the project, and who Jay Pritzker was, before being told that his widow was unimpressed with the original design. I know some of this is covered in the first para of the lead, but the lead should be regarded as a separate entity from the body of the text.
Thank you for pointing this out. I have rewritten the section some to introduce the Prizkers, their prize and Gehry first, then discuss the pavilion design. It is not 100% clear to me when the Pritzker family / Cindy Pritzker decided to fund the pavilion. My understanding is that the city made a very preliminary design first, and then shopped it around to potential donors. This is what Cindy was unimpressed with. She was interested in the pavilion idea, but wanted to have a Gehry-designed bandshell. Tony, is this correct? If so, I will try to make this clearer in the article too. Ruhrfisch><>°°02:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You have it cited clearly to a statement with this sentiment. We can only summarize the secondary sources as you have. You seem to have the idea although you may have the wording a bit close to the source.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:25, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have rewritten the statement to avoid any appearance of plagiarism, and just used the direct quotation about CIndy Pritzker mandating Frank Gehry's redesign. As a note to reviewers, I do not have access to the printed sources that Tony used. Ruhrfisch><>°°13:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As an experiment, I have combined the second and third paragraphs, as I think this better integrates the introductory info on Pritzer with the main theme of the section. By all means revert this if you think it doesn't work. Brianboulton (talk) 00:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: After a further reading of the Design and development section I was still unsatisfied with it, so I have done further copyedits and text rearrangement. In particular I have moved what I think is the main declarative sentence for the section to the beginning, and made a few adjustments later on to protect the chronology and maintain the narrative flow. Personally I am happy with the section now, but please say if I have inadvertently created problems. Or tweak as necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 17:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Acoustics section: tiny point - remove redundant "also" from final line of second para. Overall, some of the language in this section is a little too close to being promotional. We have two "innovatives" and one "unique features". This language needs to be toned down.
Thanks Tony - do you have reference(s) for this? It is not in the Petrillo Music Shell article that I could see, but if there is a ref, we could add a sentence saying this to this article to make the reasoning of the Petrillo family clearer. Ruhrfisch><>°°02:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added that the Petrillo name was retained when the bandshell was replaced in 1978, and that the Petrillo shell still stands and is used as of 2009. I also removed the word controversy. Ruhrfisch><>°°20:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Amos, a classically trained musician who chose only piano and organ accompaniment on her concert, earned positive reviews as the inaugural rock and roll performer in a venue that regularly hosts classical music." Where is the "contoversy" in that statement?
I am unconvinced that the disputes surrounding bottles and beverages amount to a "controversy", or indeed are significant enough to warrant mention, at least in this level of detail.
Events: Shouldn't Obama be recognised as the surrent US president? Otherwise the section could perhaps lose 100 or so words of froth (e.g "on Saturday mornings in the summer, the Great Lawn under the trellis hosts workouts such as yoga and pilates", "Events at the Pritzker Pavilion are not just limited to the summer months", the seating kerfuffle at the Decembrists' concert).
Added (who was later elected United States President), which is probably better than saying current President because that will become dated at some point. Not sure how that relates to froth. The yoga and pilates is a big deal. We should probably have a picture of that. Would something like this benefit the article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have removed the "Events at the Pritzker Pavilion are not just limited to the summer months" sentence and the one about multimedia in Nove 2007 (as it was mentioned again later in the article). I trimmed the yoga and pilates sentence, but kept it as it is not something you'd expect at a bandshell. At the Decembrists paragraph, I combined three sentences on attendance into one, removed anopther sentence, and trimmed what was left. I kept the rest because it mentions a few things not found elsewhere in the article: season ticket holders for the seating section and barriers between the seats and Great Lawn. Here is a diff. Is this better? Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°13:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reception: "the supporting backside along Randolph Street". Users of AmEng may be unaware that in BritEng "backside" is a euphemism for what Americans call "ass", so you can see how this sentence reads oddly to us Brits (especially the bit about it being "not pleasing to the eye." Any chance of a reword?
Whoops! It can have the same meaning in AmEng, but that did not occur to me before - thanks. Changed to the supporting north side of the structure along Randolph Street - is this better? Ruhrfisch><>°°03:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Comments copied from my user page)
Hi. Good to see this at FAC. Can I recommend you add File:2005-10-13 2880x1920 chicago above millennium park.jpg as the main image in the infobox instead as the main image should be an overivew of the whole complex rather than a restricted view in a concert.... I haven't switched images myself as I know you are often very strict with image layout in the article. If possible I'd recommend somebody creates a montage which could combine the two images or even one or two others in the main image, but I think File:2005-10-13 2880x1920 chicago above millennium park.jpg would be far better as the main than the one at present and immediately gices an understanding of the site...Dr. BlofeldWhite cat12:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, the lead image shows the view of the pavilion most concertgoers see. While I like the view from the the skyscraper (and note that it is already used as the second photo in the article), it is a poor view of the iconic stainless steel proscenium, so I prefer the current lead photo. Ruhrfisch><>°°04:08, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tried making the requested double image and adding it to the article's infobox. Also moved the map right and down a bit to avoid the longer infobox (may be better on the left). What does everyone think? Ruhrfisch><>°°19:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As poor quality as the original main image was, the sky view is terrible quality and pales in comparison to the other one. I will tolerate the double image if there is a strong preference, but that image is not so great. It has the proper perspective, but I fear people may look at that image and question the article's FA-worthiness. The image belongs in the article, but I prefer File:View of the Chicago skyline from 340 on the Park.jpg as a view from afar.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can make a composite with the current top image and the side view you like better (probably crop the bottom and left side of that a bit), but I want to make sure that it is OK with Dr. Blofeld before putting the work into it. Ruhrfisch><>°°15:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking that the side view might replace the current overhead, which could be moved to the first image position in the text. Maybe a composite would be O.K., but you are still working with a low quality image for the overhead.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. You could try it, see what it looks like. Yes the quality is not as good on the overhead. But when I said about making a montage I was thinking of more like four images arranged two by two and the scaled down. I would not object to such an arrangement or to see a side view of the pavilion...Dr. BlofeldWhite cat15:39, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Tony, I am not 100% sure what you mean here - sounds like you want to add another image to the article. I would like to hear from Dr. Blofeld, who requested the composite originally. I do not think there is room in the article for an additional image, but perhaps the current side view (from WIllis Tower) could be removed? Ruhrfisch><>°°13:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I will try to make a two by two montage with the current lead image (crowd at Beethoven's Ninth), the rehearsal image from Dr. Blofeld, the aerial side view Tony likes, and one other. Ruhrfisch><>°°18:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually you could lay the montage out like the main Chicago image and have three along the top and then use the long flickr image along the bottom that Tony likes. Basically like the Chicago one but without three images underneath so there are four images three and then one. A trial error really, see what looks best..Dr. BlofeldWhite cat19:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will make a two by two montage as originally suggested by Dr. Blofeld above. Tony, for now I will make it with the similar free image I suggested as the fourth image above, and if you want to ask for permission on the yoga image I can add that later in its place (if they release it). Dr. Blofeld, the Chicago composite is displayed only 315 pixels wide. The three images side by side are all vertical format, so having them each only about 100 px wide is OK. My fear is that three horizontal images side by side would look too small. I can try to add the panorama to the bottom of the two by two montage I make. My thought it that we already have a stunning panorama at the bottom of the article and I like that, not having a tiny panorama at the bottom of the lead image montage. Let's see how it looks. Ruhrfisch><>°°01:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I made a composite of four images and added it to the article. I am not good at writing alt text quickly so left that undone for now - if people like it, I can add it. What do you think? Ruhrfisch><>°°05:39, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have added alt text for the composite. I restored the caption and alt text for the aerial view, so that was (I believe) checked in the image review. I will ask ZScout to review the new composite (all four images in it are on Commons too). Ruhrfisch><>°°16:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is (unnecessary) repetition within close proximity when you say the Pritzkers donated $15 million twice. I think you only need to mention this once, at least not so close to each other.Dr. BlofeldWhite cat14:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"In the end, budget limitations and architectural aspirations caused compromises that left many elements in their most straightforward form, such as exposed pipes and conduits, or rough concrete". A little awkward "caused compromises", in their most straightforward form" , I'm also not sure what you mean exactly by "architectural aspirations" etc, lack of architectural ideas or what? Surely bare casing is unlikely to be a case of lacking ideas? Please clarify this, maybe something like "In the end, a tight budget forced the developers to leave parts of the structure uncased, such as exposed pipes and conduits, or rough concrete." or something like that..Dr. BlofeldWhite cat19:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I read aspirations as plans (do not have the print source) and changed it to In the end, budget limitations led to compromises with the original architectural plan that left many elements in their most straightforward form, such as exposed pipes and conduits, or rough concrete. Is this clearer? Ruhrfisch><>°°21:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The Pritzker Pavilion is the first permanent outdoor installation of the LARES system in the United States. ". Citation needed to support such a strong claim.Dr. BlofeldWhite cat19:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it is very specific criticism of the placement of the sound console But the biggest design miscalculation was Gehry's locating the computerized sound console at the center of the seating area. This ugly concrete structure obstructs views and must move. I will add a mention of it to the article (also talks about the sound not being balanced well on opening day concert). Ruhrfisch><>°°01:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have added von Rhein's critical review of both the opening night sound quality and the ugly sound console to the article (two places). Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°21:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the terms "ugly concrete structure" and "computerized sound console" are conflated in the Tribune article. The reviewer presents them as one and the same thing. Actually, the ugly concrete structure is a wall surrounding a platform topped by a clumsy, boxy wood and canvas, gray-painted rain and sun cover which moves forward or back in a track to enable the sound operator to see what is on the LCD displays of the "computerized sound console" and to protect it from rain. The mixing console is atop the concrete platform and under the boxy covering. Without the horrible-looking boxy cover, the sound crew would not be able to see to operate the Digico D5 console in the daytime because of glare. If they had selected an old-school analog mixing console, there would not be this problem. Operations in twilight and darker are okay for the crew. Those times would only need the cover for rain. It's hideous, and blocks views, as is clearly seen here, here and here in these photos and here in this seating layout. By the way, the Pavilion calls this structure the "sound booth" which is where you would go to get assisted listening devices. In the article, you could write that, if he could, Gehry would "scrap the big box of a sound booth that sprang up like a weed in the center of the pavilion's seating," that is, if you think this source is reliable enough. That section of the construction is Beeby's design, not Gehry's, but the clumsy sound booth awning may be an ad hoc design by the sound contractor. Binksternet (talk) 01:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I changed the sentence to A review in the Chicago Tribune criticized the "ugly concrete structure" surrounding the mixing console in the midst of the fixed seats as the pavilion's "biggest design miscalculation", and called for it be moved. I think the Reader is a reliable source and will add the Gehry statement next. I also found two books on positioning the mixing console here and here. Ruhrfisch><>°°02:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, I added a sentence saying Although modern practice is to locate the sound console in with the audience,[107][108] Gehry said at a symposium after the park's opening that he wanted "to scrap the big box of a sound booth that sprang up like a weed in the center of the pavilion's seating".[109] Is this better? Ruhrfisch><>°°04:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your kind words and helpful shortened links, I have made the change. WP:CITE strongly recommends providing access dates in some way, so I prefer to leave them in for the books too. Ruhrfisch><>°°05:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, one of the supposed deadl inks (Chicago FAQ) still works, the other one (Chicago 2016 Olympics) is gone, so I commented it out - the Sun-Times ref backs up what it says anyway. I added "subscription required" to the three restricted access refs (Economist and Financial Times). The rest of the problems are, for the most part, News Bank refs, or a few direct links to the newspaper's websites. Since the publication data for all of these refs is also given, even if the internet version disappears, they are still OK as refs (someone could look up the paper on microfilm, for example). I am not sure if NewsBank is having a problem or what. Tony, can you figure this out? Ruhrfisch><>°°21:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because...it has passed all the requisite reviews (GA, WP Military History A), it meets the requirements of notability, comprehensiveness and focus. I think its illustrations are in line with requirements, and the sourcing is in order., Furthermore, the subject—Austrian general in the Napoleonic Wars—is of broad interest to readers. French generals are well-covered in Wikipedia articles, but the generals of the Coalition(s) are not. Thanks for reading! I look forward to your comments. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:10, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Read the rules. It doesn't matter "what national variety of English they speak in Austria". What matters is that the addition of these conversion templates has improperly put those -re endings into the article, contrary to the usage in the rest of the article. It is a change that is improper according to the MoS. What matters is that when such a widely used template defaults to a particular variety of English, rather than requiring all users to specify the variety of English, then somebody better be watching or we could just as well throw the long-standing WP:ENGVAR rules right out the window. FA review is supposed to be checking whether articles are written in accordance to our policies; in this particular case, it doesn't seem to be done. Gene Nygaard (talk) 06:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please identify one or more of these improper -re endings that have been introduced into this article as a result of the convert template. That might be helpful. Brianboulton (talk) 13:04, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: I've only read the lead so far, but here are a couple of points:
"Handschuhsheim" should be linked in the lead. "Wagram" could be linked to Deutsch-Wagram. The military unit "brigade" probablyprequires a link, too. You have linked the rank of "lieutenant field marshal" to "field marshal", presumably not the same rank.
No, Lt. Field Marshal is one of the variants of field marshal and covered in the article. The link to brigade would be to a modern brigade, which was not the same in the early 1800s. The article on brigade is clearly not about the early-modern and Napoleonic brigade, and there is nothing comparable in wikipedia that I could find. The rank of field marshal is a general, and more or less comparable. Also, the link to Lieutenant field marshal redirects to field marshal. Wagram could be linked to Deutsch-Wagram, however, I'm referring to the battles, not the towns. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am a bit worried by the sentence: "Klenau remains arguably among the best of the field generals...", particular as, so far as I can see, this is supported in the text only by the statement: "Many considered General of the Cavalry Count von Klenau one of the best Austrian corps commanders of his age,..." with no indication as to who these "many" are (there is also a tense issue with "considered", but leave that aside for now).
Further comments: I have not been able to give this a thorough prose review, but I have read through it, with some observations listed below. I also made a few copyedits on the way. The military detail is extremely good and thorough, in line with the standards of your other Wikipedia contributions. However, I found that the article ended rather suddenly; it is common for biographical articles to conclude with some sort of assessment or "legacy" section, as is the case with other military figures who have reached FA status, and there seems to be a need for such a section here. How have the military historians assessed him, for example in comparison with the other commanders of this era? A shortish section dealing with Klenau's historical standing and reputation would round the article off.
Early career: Strictly, Bohemia is not "the present-day Czech republic" but "within the present-day Czech Republic", of which it occupies about 65%. fixed.
"plus Portugal..." etc is a little inelegant, and "in addition to " and "together with" are worse. Perhaps "and also Portugal..."? fixed.
Most of the conversions in the article are from kilometers to miles. Suddenly we have "12-mile (19 km)". Any reason? fixed
"In 1796, in the Italian theater, Klenau demonstrated again his field command flexibility and confidence." I feel that sentences like this should be more directly related to sources, so that they don't appear to be editorial judgements. it is cited.
I believe you...but the cite, presumably [18} (Boycott-Brown) is a long way away, so the sentence in question looks like a bit of editorialising even though it isn't. It would be better to rephrase. e.g. "In 1796, in the Italian theater, Klenau demonstrated again what Boycott-Brown describes as his field command flexibility and confidence." Brianboulton (talk) 17:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What sentence are you looking at? The sentence I am querying is the first in the "Action in the Italian Theater" section, which reads as I have quoted above. It does not carry a citation. The nearest citation to it is about six lines further down, and is [18] which is Boycott-Brown, not Ebert. Brianboulton (talk) 00:52, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I found what you meant. That was one of those transitional sentences. I just took it out. Probably not as smooth a transition, but... Auntieruth55 (talk) 03:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"two-to-one" is normally written as three words, not with hyphens. fixed
"but 2,000 captured,..." doesn't seem like a "but" clause to me. Connector should be "and". fixed
Another miles to km conversion: 4.7 miles (8 km) fixed
"the Charles' army" Odd use of apostrophe, and why "the"? You wouldn't refer to "the Rommel's army". Conventional English form would be "Charles's army". just a remnant from earlier revision. Fixed.
Jarring prose: "requisite request". Perhaps "mandatory" or "obligatory" fixed
"complete military defeat in 1813-1814 campaigns," sounds as though a "the" is missing. fixed
The "Background" and "Third Coalition" subsections of he Napoleonic Wars section take the story away from Klenau's narrative, dealing as they do with events (e.g. Austerlitz) in which Klenau played no part. While I understand the need for background and context, perhaps a little too much has been included here. Links to other articles might be used to limit the need for explanatory prose here. considerably shortened, used notes
Continuing this trend, the following section, "Danube campaign: Road to Ulm" mentions Klenau in the first line, and the last line mentions his release from capture. Nothing at all about what he did in the campaign. This lack of focus on the object of the article is beginning to seem a problem. there was some discussion of his single victory at Haslach, but it seemed lost in the text, so I've vamped it up a bit. It was a 3 month campaign, with a single victory (Klenau's), and the campaign concluded with the surrender of the entire Austrian army.
made notes on fixes. Re Legacy. There is very little about him. No definitive Biography, as yet, partly, probably, because the emphasis in Napoleonic literature is usually on the French, and only now beginning to focus on the generals in other armies. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:42, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even though the material for a "legacy" section does not exist, did military historians assess his career and come to any conclusions about it? An earlier version of the article included a sentence: "Many considered General of the Cavalry Count von Klenau one of the best Austrian corps commanders of his age, for his aggressiveness, his confidence and his talent," cited to a German source. Is it possible to identify some of the "many" , and summarise what they said?
Support: responses to my various concerns, as detailed above, have been satisfactory. I am confident that the MilHist review process will have established the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the article. Any remaining concerns are likely to be niggles, and I am pleased to give support. Brianboulton (talk) 20:05, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments regarding the portrait in the infobox - The white square around the portrait doesn't look good in the gray infobox. Is this an original part of the portrait, or can it be removed, alt. coloured grey. (see for example File:Pontiac chief.png) Is there any information on the painter, perhaps an wikilink? Since nearly all historical paintings were pov, painter and an approximated creation date would also be good for the other paintings. See, for example Pontiac's RebellionThe Ministry (talk)01:05, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it doesn't look that great. I have another copy in color, if you think that would look better. As far as where it is from... Approximate creation date would be 1813-1815, because of the medals he is wearing. I'll see what I can find on the others, but these are mostly lithographs from 19th century books on the Napoleonic and fr. Revolutionary wars which have been copied into web service. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
all the other images have (in commons or on the wiki page) complete and translated info. The portrait has no info that I can find, other than that it is widely distributed. . I have no other source information. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I extensively reviewed this in the MILHIST A-class review and am satisfied that it now meets the FA criteria. One quick comment: in the "1800 Campaign in Swabia" section, can you pick one of the images to keep? One of the two will always be shoved into the following "Napoleonic Wars" section. —Ed(talk • majestic titan)01:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on refs need more than a little work, or perhaps simply need to be explained. Inconsistent etc., hard to know how to proceed. Forex, full refs given twice for books – once in notes, once in Bibliography. Why duplicate? And I've found a couple that are given in the notes but not the refs, but I can't tell whether or not this is deliberate. • Ling.Nut08:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Everything cited in full on first mention. In some cases, as in the Digby Smith Databook, if I've cited a battle page, if it is not obvious which battle, I include the name of the battle. If it is the only battle on the page, I don't include the name. Bibliography includes complete citations of all sources. I don't use the ref template, makes me crazy when I'm using it, and it doesn't allow me to add explanatory notes, nor to add two citations in the same footnote. I don't like reading articles that have strings of numbers either. I'm just old fashioned. I also use the AHA style for citations and bib and they are (should be) consistent in the article. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - There are several instances where sentences like this one appears, “In his early military career Klenau demonstrated, not only at Zemon but also in the skirmishing and raids of 1778–1779, the attributes required of a successful cavalry officer: the military acumen to evaluate a situation, the flexibility to adjust his plans on a moment's notice, and the personal courage to take the same risks he demanded of his men.” I know that they have proper refs, but since they are value judgements I would much rather you wrote “According to ‘historian/writer/whatever’ Jon Doe, Klenau demonstrated...” (especially when the
source is the one hundred years old ADB) Just as we in an article about a movie writes "According to critic Jon Doe, the movie is funny" instead of just “The movie is funny.”
So and so said... They are all sourced to at least one citation, and in most cases, more than one, thus it is difficult to say a single historian said it, and cumbersome to say, Smith, Kudrna, Castle, Ebert, the ADB author who uses only his initials, and Gates say that.... Also, I've paraphrased the statement to accommodate what all of them have said, not what a single individual has said. This is a writing style that I use, rather than talk about what individual authors have said, I focus on the subject of the biography. In other types of articles, I handle the situation differently when I'm discussing an historiographic school, but in biographies, this is the rut I've adopted. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:00, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Old sources. Just because they are old doesn't make them useful. The ADB is particularly interesting for its wealth of detail. I rely on sources like ADB for the basics—birth, death, promotions, campaigns, etc.—and on other sources for much of the other kinds of material: what units, etc. The great thing about ADB is its no nonsense character. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable source. Napoleon online is in part a collection of biographical material compiled from original sources (at least the part I used here) and is the German-language partner-site to Napoleon Series. The latter is peer-reviewed, and Burnham keeps a tight rein on what goes on the site, and the sites he partners with (when possible). Sometimes the writing isn't stellar —he often offers students the opportunity to publish on the site as well as people whose native language is not English—but the content is reliable. It is also a good location to find transcriptions of original documents. I talked with him (Burnham) about the policies at a conference once (we were both presenting papers), and he explained that he does require a peer review of the articles, from other contributors, usually. Some of the articles have been part of the Napoleon period writers contest. His contributors vary widely: John Gill, Ian Castle, among others. Ebert writes in German, and is compiling a substantial core of biographies on the Austrian generals. I've double-checked his material, and find it to be accurate and reliable. So, based on my evaluation of the site, my checking of his information, and the relationship with another site I trust (and that is trusted by many), I consider it reliable. I refer my students to it if they are looking for something on a topic covered there. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:00, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentSupport I was the user that passed this article for GA, and it has significantly improved and expanded since then. I enjoyed reading it, but there were too many problems to support at this stage, although I would be happy to do so once improvements have been made. The problems largely fall into two categories 1) widespread prose errors, both in terms of grammar and typos and 2) Too much context in some places and not enough in others. In all, a very nice article, but not quite there yet.--Jackyd101 (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Big improvements, but still a few minor points below to address. Don't worry about expanding or cutting context at this stage, but there are still some prose issues to deal with. Regards,--Jackyd101 (talk) 18:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In all honesty, I think this article could do with cutting down, but that is only a matter of opinion and not something I consider actionable in this FAC. Otherwise it is a very good article that I am now happy to support. Regards --Jackyd101 (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The son of a Bohemian noble, he joined the cavalry as a teenager" - is something of a non sequiter - can you make it flow better with the sentances around it?fixed
"In the early years of the French Revolutionary Wars, he distinguished" - say "Klenau" instead of "he" the first time you reference him in a paragraph.done.
"main Austrian force after its defeat at Wagram" - repetition of Wagram changed
"at Aspern-Esslingen and and its defeat at Wagram" - too many "and"s
"on the first day of battle. After the battle" - repetition of battleI added the battle name again.
The word "he" is repeated too often in the final paragraph of the lead, try to find ways to avoid using it as much.fixed
I too am slightly uncomfortable about the "In his early military career Klenau demonstrated" section not being directly attributed, but I accept your response above and don't think any additional work is needed on this at this time. When someone writes a bio of him...
"looked upon the revolution in France" - link to the French Revolution and give a date. I think that there is too much detail here on the causes of the war given that this is a biography of someone who was not involved at all at this stage, although again, I don't see it as a barrier to FAC, just something to think about. initially it didn't have this much, when you saw it at GA, but one of the A-class reviewers wanted more context.
I think you have the wrong Battle of Wissembourg linked. Wissembourg lines, 12-13 October 1793? That isn't the right one?
"and mowed down Dufour's infantry" - mowed down is not an encyclopedic term, find a different way to say it.generally it is described that way. I changed to cut.
Out of curiosity, do you think that the Battle of Zemon, the Battle of Handschuhsheim, the Siege of Ferrara, the Battle of Büsingen deserve their own articles? Certain Handschuhsheim should. The others? Not so sure.
"Bonaparte's victory there" - name and link the battleit's in the same sentence, but I repeated it.
"among others—achieved several victories" - is in the wrong tense "among others— had achieved several victories"fixed and reworded.
"Peace and the Congress of Rastatt" - Klenau isn't mentioned once in this whole section. I understand the need to provide context, but I'm concerned that this section (and others like it) go too far off topic. see my comment above. I'll try to pare it down, but given the previous review....
"Archduke Charles of Austria in the late 18th and early 19th centuries" - this doesn't make sense, do you mean "Charles, Archduke of Austria in the late 18th and early 19th centuries"?got it.
"on 24 May 1799, Klenau captured the fortress at Ferrara, the lynch-pin in the French Po River defenses" - you have already described the capture of the fortress, and stated that is was the lynchpin. This repetition needs to be removed.done I think.
"a strategically key point in the region" - you mean "a key strategic point in the region"
"Despite the imperial losses" - Imperial is a proper noun in this context and should always be capitalised. done
Battle of Wertingen is linked. At the first, near the Bavarian town of Wertingen, 40 kilometers (25 mi) northwest of Augsburg, on 8 October, Murat's Cavalry Corps and grenadiers of Lannes' V Corps surprised an Austrian force half their size.
"The campaign started badly at the Battle of Eckmühl" -badly for who?for Klenau
"16 mounted squadrons, which he led Archduke Charles lost the advantage in the battle;" - looks like something is missing here? A period?
This article makes it sound like Klenau won the battle of Aspern-Essling almost single handed. Can you place his participation in a wider context? widened'
It's still not clear that any other Austrians were engaged other than Klenau's force - how important was his contribution to the overall battle?--Jackyd101 (talk) 18:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
added more.
"Saxon campaign 1813" - Its a little odd, but having given extensive and not always relevant context to every campaign up to this point, the narrative suddenly leaps ahead four years with no context at all - please comment on events between 1809 and 1813, both in Europe and regarding Klenau personally.did some, but expanded at 1812
"the Schwedenschanze, of the Swedish Redoubt," - what was the "Swedish redoubt" Schwedenschanz means Swedish defensive position, or the Swedish redoubt. Built by the Swedes in the 30 Years War.
Question - “Johann von Klenau, also called Johann Josef Cajetan von Klenau und Janowitz,” should it really be “also called”, isn't the long one just his full name? The Ministry (talk)01:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The sources usually refer to him as Johann von Klenau. Sometimes the longer name is used. Count of Klenau and Baron of Janowitz.
Support - Read the article & went through it mostly for the "French side of the story", i.e. linking to the right individuals, editing French words etc., I am leaving the technical discussion to the pros as I see that the small problems are being resolved the instant they are brought out.
Un grand merci to Auntie Ruth for this new interesting article. Frania W. (talk) 19:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images:
A question about the lead image, File:Johann Graf von Klenau Freiherr von Janowitz.jpg. It's on the Commons and seems old enough, so it should be okay, but I notice the author is unknown, and there is no first publication date. Is there anything that tells us its age, even roughly? I'm unsure about whether we can assume this particular image was made in his lifetime.
It's at least pre 1819. It is the type of picture usually contained in a miniature, and given the medals he is wearing, it was probably done after he received his Commanders' Cross.
Personally, I agree with you, but I've been challenged myself in the past for not providing an author or a publication date that shows the image really is that old, and isn't something that was created more recently and made to look that age. I'm new to image reviews and therefore unsure how strict we're meant to be, so I'll have to leave this one to the delegates, but if you can track down more information about it, it would clear up the uncertainty. SlimVirginTALKcontribs18:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This image has been released by Luca Giarelli, but we don't say who that is. If it's a Wikipedian, we should link to the user page. I checked the English WP and she's not here.
I hope I'm not being obtuse, but how do we know this map was created before 1923? The source doesn't say anything about it that I can see.
this looks like an image from the Baedecker guidebooks. Not entirely sure. I can replace it with an image of the castle itself, but this little map explains better how Klenau could take the city, but not the castle. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this image was taken and released by Peter Stein, but the image page doesn't say who that is. There's no user on this WP with that user name.
He is a photographer living in the Bodenseeraum (in Radolfzell). I added his website to the description. I added Photo by Peter Stein / CC-BY-SA 3.0 to the caption. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This one needs a link on the image page to say which website it came from. It says artnet, but we need a link to the page, or some more precise citation.
Another concern: File:Napoleon.Dresden.jpg is a 19th-century painting, and there's no problem using it, but the person who took the photograph has tagged it as his/her own work and cc-by. Should it not be the painting that's tagged, rather than the photograph of the painting? SlimVirginTALKcontribs13:10, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's the painting's age that matters. The photographer didn't add anything creative, so in addition to the release by the photographer there should be an appropriate tag for the painting.SlimVirginTALKcontribs18:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify what I wrote there, a release from the photographer isn't needed at all unless there was creative input, but given that we have one, it would make sense not to remove it.SlimVirginTALKcontribs19:06, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Outdent) I also found the documentation on the original. At least I think it is. Andrea Bolzoni. I added it to the commons file. I'd rather keep the older one, that's in there now. I've found the Klenau portrait in a modern book and it appears to be in public domain, since they do not credit it to a museum, or another book. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What about the Klenau image. I found a copy of it in Hollins, Austrian Commanders of the Napoleonic Wars 1792-1815, Osprey, p. 22. He gives no attribution for Klenau's picture, or anyone else's. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:10, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a paper copy of the book? If so, there should be an acknowledgments section somewhere for images. I just tried to look on Google books, but it's only letting me see a few pages. One of them (p 2) thanks the Austrian National Library Bildarchiv, so that's probably where this image comes from. You could email them, or email the author, David Hollins, via the publisher: info at ospreydirect.co.uk. SlimVirginTALKcontribs02:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I partly agree with you, but the image rules on WP say that we must know both the source of an image (where the Wikipedian got it from), and its provenance (who owns the copyright; have they licensed the image; or if copyright has expired or was never appropriate, name and dates of author and/or date of publication, so we know how old it is. I believe all you have to do with this image, and that of the map, is show that they were published before 1923. You don't necessarily need the names of the authors or first dates of publication. This is one of my first image reviews, so I really don't know how strict the delegates are. I'll look around to see what others are doing. SlimVirginTALKcontribs19:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's an article here about reviewing images for FAC. If you look under "policy-mandated elements," it says images at FAC require: an image summary, which you have; a source, which you have; and a copyright tag along with sufficient information to determine that the tag is the right one. That's what you're lacking for the lead image and the map. See point 3 under "policy-mandated elements." I'm sorry, I know it seems strict and is frustrating, but there's a real risk that these images will be challenged in future by someone else, so it's worth getting it sorted out. SlimVirginTALKcontribs21:34, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) SlimVirgin is correct. Per WP:IUP#Requirements, sources for the image to help verification of title, author, and date(s) should be provided. Also remember that creation does not equal publication, and that under US laws, centuries-old photos/paintings might be still be copyrighted if published at the "wrong" time (see WP:Public domain#Artworks). Images of paintings should either have the location of their gallery stated, or the site from where the digital image is gotten (remember to point to the page where the image is displayed, and not to the image themselves). Publication data should be stated. Jappalang (talk) 06:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I took the portrait out and substituted a picture (Handschuhsheim charge) in its stead. When I finally get a lead on where that portrait came from I may switch it back. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence "After their defeat at Wagram, the Austrians withdrew into Moravia, leaving the French in control of that part of the Danube valley; Wagram was the largest European land-battle to-date, engaging 262 battalions and 202 squadrons—153,000 men—for France and her allies, and 160 battalions and 150 squadrons—135,000 men—on the Austrian side" has how many em dashes in it? I count four, but two are the limit suggested by the guideline at WP:DASH. The same guideline suggests two per paragraph as a good limit, but your paragraph beginning "Although the Coalition forces" contains four em dashes.
Two are the limit suggested, but in this case, for parallel structure, I used them.
At your phrase "the position seemed unsustainable", could you use the word "untenable" instead?
Sure. Done.
In one reference by Vann, you have two page ranges with one a subset of the other: pp. 291–310, pp. 297–298. Same with Sked: pp. 175–193, p. 176; and Leggiere: pp. 39–84, p. 64. I suggest deleting the subset pages since they are included in the larger range.
The general page ranges are for the article, the single page is the page cited.
Ah! You can easily drop the article page range and just go with the page(s) specifically cited. Down in the bibliography section, you already have the article page range defined, so they are not needed twice.Binksternet (talk) 14:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your en dashes include a combination of HTML coded ones and single characters. I suggest converting the HTML ones to characters for consistency. The reader will not see the change but an editor who uses this article as an example of FA style will.
That just means the auto-ed hasn't gone through it again, since someone did some editing. Auto ed has now gone through, and all are converted. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One instance of the words "to-date" has a hyphen linking them. Is this purposeful?
It wasn't for me, but I'll check it.
I see a mix of British and American spellings. The convert template specifies U.S. but the hyphens in east-south-east and counter-attack are British. The spelling of "storey" is British.
The spelling of "storey" is also American. East-south-east are also American, as is counter-attack. As far as I know. I live in the US, and use them/read them all the time. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Southeast is spelled with one word when it is a place (such as Southeast United States). Locations of the compass east–south–east are not a single word, but indicative of a range, and therefore, as I understand the guidelines, should be hyphenated. So perhaps the MOS has a contradiction in it.
In any dictionary I've read storey is the proper way to spell the word for horizontal levels in a house, not "story", which is a tale told at the fireside. I understand that it may be "story" in the United States but it is not necessarily that way in the United States. This may be a generational issue, also.
Once more in WP:DASH, the guideline talks about mixing prepositions with dashes when discussing a date range. The use of "from 1778 to 1779" is fine, but "from 1778–1779" is not, as it mixes the two. Also: "between 1801–1805". These could be fixed by deleting the word, or changing the en dash to a word.Binksternet (talk) 21:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In early July, in the Johann_von_Klenau#Wagram section, Klenau takes the same villages again from Masséna (even though nothing we say implies that Austria lost them in the meantime), only to then lose them to Masséna.
that would be yes. A couple of nights in both battles, when the fighting stopped for the night, the French and Austrians were within pistol shot from one another. One source I read said that they could smell each other's cigars and cooking. Given the standards of 19th century hygiene, they could probably smell each other, too. Auntieruth55 (talk) 04:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Both times we say he got his orders late but made up the time.
Are we somehow telling the same story twice? Or did France retake Aspern and Essling between May and July, and Klenau really did get his orders late on both occasions? --JN46623:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Aspern-Essling and Wagram were fought on the same territory—within sight of the Vienna ramparts—a few weeks apart. The same armies were there, plus more French brought up in the meantime (from Italy). Austrians didn't get additional men because Archduke John dawdled along the way (didn't understand the urgency). And in the meantime, the Austrians didn't learn to do staff work any better. The Austrian command structure was very cumbersome, so it often took a long time for orders to be written and delivered, unless Charles gave instructions himself directly to a commander, which in this situation did not happen. I wondered too if Klenau got his orders late on both battles; my sources re Aspern refer to late orders and my sources re Wagram refer to late orders. So I wrote about late orders. Auntieruth55 (talk) 04:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but I am still confused (and so, I am sure, will readers be) how Klenau could take Aspern and Essling from the French in July, when he had already taken them from the French in May, and there was a lull in fighting between May and July. Perhaps we should dig for some sources and close that gap. I am sure we'll get this fixed though and am happy to support. --JN46617:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Summary
Supports from Brianboulton, Jackyd, Ed, Frania W, JN. Binksternet has struck issues. Slim Virgin did image review. (her first, YAY, throws confetti). Ealdgyth -did sources. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have not yet struck all my comments. I would not like to see the non-breaking space overuse issue remain in place and thus reinforce continued non-MOS requirements pushed down the throats of FAC nominators. I can't find one non-breaking space that must stay in this article. Binksternet (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked: yikes ! We do *Not* need nbsps on dates. They should be removed, but I'm not going to hold up promotion over that. There was once a long discussion on the MOS talk pages, and we put to rest the idea of NBSPs on dates-- they are not needed, and really clutter the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your wish... I have removed all of the non-breaking spaces, including the ones in front of the words "million" and "percent", because there was no confusion with monetary symbols or the percent sign. I now fully support this FAC. Binksternet (talk) 23:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Query: is that infobox really only 300px? It is seriously huge on my browser, and really jamming the text into only a few lines. I don't know how/where to check this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:26, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The image was set to be 1.75 times as wide as your personal choice for thumbnail width. What is your setting? Mine is still at 180px, wiki default, and the resulting image measured out to about 320 pixels wide. Your width is probably gigantic because you like bigger thumbs. ^_^
Thanks for fixing this Binksternet. And for fixing the dates. I have crossed this off my Wikiwoops list...things I didn't do right initially and was told I must do. Glad to have it clarified. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Comments: about citations, just a few polish: is "ciudadania-express" really capitalised that way? "Notimex." Italics required! "La Prensa." Italics required! Fifelfoo (talk) 11:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support on comprehensiveness. Lots of good info, nothing missing as far as I can tell. Note that I've not read the article in detail however. –Juliancolton | Talk01:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My latest FAC submission features a rare fungus, found only in Texas and Japan, that hisses and blows smoke (sort of). It is as comprehensive as I can make it without learning Japanese (although I'd like to thank the Japan wikiproject for some help with translation). Thanks for reading. Disclosure: I'm in the WikiCupSasata (talk) 16:53, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from J Milburn
This one seems to have changed a lot since last time I read it... Different pictures, for a start :) Great work with the pictures- the maps are a great addition, and the new lead picture is excellent.
"splits open in a star-like fashion" It's not the splitting that is starlike, but the shape, surely? (fixed - this was my poor translation of the original jargon phrase "stellate dehiscence")
"called kirinomitake (キリノミタケ) after its resemblance to the seed pods of the Empress tree." Doesn't mean much to me... Is the Empress tree known as kirino in Japanese, or something? (removed the detail from the lead, but explained the kiri reference in the text and figure caption)
"by Heald and Wolf (1910)[5] and Seaver (1928, 1942)," Other mycologists are given their full names.# (all full names given now, with redlinks; will make articles for these guys soon, as redlinks bug me. Oddly, they're all named Fred.)
"tribe Sarcosomateae" A link would be good, or, if not, a link to our articles on tribes. (linked tribe)
"C. geaster is the only member of the monotypic genus Chorioactis.[17]" Not certain this fits- the issue has already been discussed. I admit that a nice concluding line about the status of the species would be good, but the focus of the sentence is the species, not the genus, despite the fact the title of the article suggests it is about the genus. (you're right, it just repeats what's already been said - now removed)
"American mycologist Seaver commented" Seaver has already been introduced, and, again, I don't really like the way we refer to him only by surname. (fixed)
"In 1997, Texan state Senator Chris Harris filed a bill to make C. geaster the official state fungus of Texas;[19] the bill passed the Senate but did not succeed in the House.[20]" Do we have an article on state fungi? If not, a link to the article about symbols of Texas may fit... (linked to the latter. A list article on the former would be interesting, will dig around and see how many states have one)
"In Japan the mushroom is called kirinomitake (キリノミタケ), because the immature, unopened fruit body bears some resemblance to the seed pods of the Empress tree (Paulownia tomentosa).[21]" Again, I'm not seeing this. It's like saying "They named their daughter Evelyn, after Dolly Parton". (fixed per above)
"fruit body (technically an apothecium)," Implies that an apothecium is not a fruiting body- is this the case? (I just removed the parenthetical information, as it's just introducing jargon that's not used again in the article)
"the characteristic shape of the unopened fruit body, as well as the smoky spore release give the fungus its common name "Devil's cigar"" Sort of contradicts what has already been said- before, the tone of the article was very "who knows why it's called that?" but now there seems to be some certainty. Perhaps some counter-quotes from different mycologists would be interesting? (I've added a ref that correlates the fungus appearance and behavior with the common name with certainty. Didn't mean to imply doubt about the name origin with the Seaver quote, but was rather trying to add some flavor to the text. Will think about how to rejig the prose introducing the quote.)
"Dehiscence is accompanied by a hissing sound, an auditory phenomenon known to occur in about fifteen other fungal species." That's awesome. Does it have a name? I'd love to see an article on that... (No technical name that I'm aware of, but I agree a list article about fungi that make sounds would be cool... will look into it.)
"filamentous" link? (wikt'd)
"other species in the genus Kumanasamuha." Why "other"? It's not technically a member of the genus itself... (removed "other")
"dead oak trees." The linked article is about oak trees, not dead ones specifically. (improved pipe)
"between October to April," October AND April, surely? (ya)
I think this article's fantastic. There were several extremely interesting sections- the odd distribution, the details of dehiscence, the state fungus bill, the anamorph form... It's very well written, comprehensive and compelling. It's also very well illustrated and researched. A great read. J Milburn (talk) 23:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks kindly for your helpful comments. I particularly like how this article started out as a one shot contribution by an anon fungus fan. I hope (s)he comes back sometime and sees how their contribution has grown :) Sasata (talk) 03:32, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome! I did not know there were map conventions. Thanks for doing that, Fvasconcellos. I probably would have spent an hour figuring out how to do it, then would have gotten the colors wrong :) Sasata (talk) 18:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For completeness, can you add the source of the mapped data to the two image files for the maps?
Comments (Another week, another fungus... of course, its so cold here I don't have any fungi growing in my barn, the manure pile is frozen solid!) -
You are so lucky to have easy access to horse manure... I have to buy it by the bag, or drive an hour to get it for "free". Sasata (talk) 04:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 5 (Seaver 1928) needs a page number(done)
Current ref 29 (Rare ...) needs a publisher. What makes this a reliable source? (Anything where the website's domain name is pinktenticle.com is going to have some issues with reliability without something else offsetting that!) (I ditched this source as I found the conference abstract which this source was citing.)
Current ref 32 (Mims..) needs a publisher(done - this source is a reprint of his science column that appeared in the Seguin Gazette-Enterprise)
Current ref 33 (Forest.mims) needs a publisher. What makes this a reliable source?(I removed this one, it was extraneous)
Current ref 34 (Jones..) needs a publisher. What makes this a reliable source?(I have replaced this with something more reliable, a conference abstract that supports the statement.)
Comments Support(moral or otherwise) as wikiproject fungi member. I am reading through now. I did wonder about expanding Kyushu to "The Japanese Island of Kyushu" in the lead but hadn't realised it was the third largest island (never known much about Japanese geography..). Anyway. Will jot any queries below. I am reduced to minor non-deal-breaker quibbles. Article looks great. Casliber (talk·contribs) 19:41, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the distribution section, I wonder if it is worth noting the distribution in Texas is disjunct (due to suitable habitat?).
I added the sentence "Travis and Guadalupe counties are in central Texas, while the remainder are clustered together in the northeastern part of the state.", but I don't really know anything about their habitats (nor do the sources mention) so I left out any speculation. Thanks for your support. Sasata (talk) 16:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: accessdates are not required for hardprint journals or when PMIDs are given; given that they're there, no need to remove them, but they do add unnecessary clutter. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For some reason I thought they were needed for all external web links. I will recalibrate my thinking for future articles. Sasata (talk) 22:37, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
This is a partial self-nom. The 10th anniversary of this incident is coming up on September 30 this year, which is why I'm nominating it for FA status. Several editors have worked on it over the years, both on the article itself and by offering guidance on the talk page. A full list of editors is here, and talk-page contributors are here. It was largely rewritten in October this year, though earlier contributions helped to shape the rewrite. The top editors from 2009 are ChrisO, George, Jaakobou, and myself. Previous key editors were Jayjg, Tundrabuggy, and Liftarn. It is 41 kB (6502 words) of readable prose; 110 kB overall.
What happened to 12-year-old Muhammad al-Durrah is a highly contentious issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He was filmed by France 2 on September 30, 2000 apparently being shot and killed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a gun battle with Palestinian security forces. Multiple, conflicting, and sometimes overlapping narratives have developed about the incident over the years. The basic positions are as follows, with examples of who holds the view—the people cited are either involved, or are journalists who've written about the issue in depth:
He was shot and killed by the IDF. Held by Charles Enderlin and Talal Abu Rahma of France 2; most of the media that first responded; the IDF initially. [23]
He was shot and killed, probably or definitely by Palestinian gunfire. Held by e.g. General Yom Tov Samia of the IDF following a controversial November 2000 IDF investigation; [24]Daniel Leconte, former France 2 correspondent. [25]
He was shot and killed, but we don't know who fired the shots. Held by e.g. Arlette Chabot, news director of France 2, [26] and Israeli historian Tom Segev. [27]
He was shot and killed, and we don't know by whom, but not by the IDF soldiers known to have been there. Held by e.g. James Fallows of The Atlantic. [28]
A boy did die that day in that area, but he arrived at the hospital (10 am) before al-Muhammad was shot (between noon and 3 pm), and the boy shown during the funeral was not al-Durrah. Muhammad may be alive or dead; there is no firm evidence either way. A small minority position, held by German journalist Esther Schapira, who has produced two documentaries about the incident. [29]
There is no reason to suppose he was either shot or killed; the whole thing was a hoax. A very small minority position, the so-called "maximalist narrative." Held by e.g. Israeli physicist Nahum Shahaf who was involved in the October 2000 IDF investigation; Richard Landes, an American academic; Philippe Karsenty, a French media commentator; Daniel Seaman, director of the Israeli govt press office; Luc Rosenzweig, a retired managing editor of Le Monde; Jean-Claude Schlinger, a French ballistics expert hired by Karsenty. [30] There is also a belief, held by at least one member of the October 2000 IDF inquiry, that the incident was staged, but that the boy's death was real and was part of the pretence.
The positions aren't as clear-cut as the above and overlap considerably. It has been difficult to steer a course through them, giving each view the attention reliable sources give it, but I think we've achieved a reasonable balance. The article covers all the main views comprehensively, without going into neurotic detail (I hope).
There are quite a few fair-use images in the article, as we had to use the original France 2 footage of the shooting. This is copyrighted, but although not released under a free licence, the network has allowed the images to be reproduced all over the world without charge, so there's no problem with our use of them. SlimVirginTALKcontribs08:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article is much improved. I am going to support but:
"Rosensweig" or "Rosenzweig"? Both spellings appear.
Lead 3rd para: Philippe Karsenty, a French media watchdog. Should people be described as watchdogs? How about "campaigner"?
Lead 4th para. amounted to a modern blood libel. I think "modern version of the blood libel" would be better.
French times again. I suggest that you translate these times trhoughout into GMT in the same way as you translate the Palestinian times. So that you say 8:00pm (6:00pm GMT).
Thanks, Peter. Your first three points are fixed here. Regarding times, I think I'm too tired to do this right now, and I don't want to make a mistake, so I'll leave it until after I've had a short break. :) SlimVirginTALKcontribs22:41, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You reconciled things the opposite way to what I expeced. But it is consistent now. So that's all my points dealt with. If the NPOV debate below results in more substantial updates, let me know and I'll check again.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources in notes but not refs: Reuters, May 21, 2008; Schapira 2000a [but seems to be a typo];
Sources in refs but not notes: CNN (September 27, 2000); Lungen, Paul (2008); Patience, Martin (2007); Prasquier, Richard (2008) [though Prasquier is mentioned in the text but linked to Barnavi]; Psenny, Daniel (2004); Ravid, Barak (2007); Rohan, Brian (2008); St Petersburg Times (November 28, 2000)
MinorEasily-repaired POV concerns about WP:LEDE: Yes, I see the logic of the lede, and its valiant attempt to be NPOV. I would even suggest that a majority of folks would agree that the lede is NPOV. However, it seems that the Palestinian POV is always placed in sequence before the Israeli one. Perhaps this reflects the chronological path of the development of conventional wisdom (as outlined above). However, and probably as a result, the initial paragraphs kinda lead the reader along a garden path, first painting an impression that the event was as the Palestinians would have it, then to some degree taking back the first impression with later statements. I would like to see this addressed by rewriting the first and/or second sentence of the lede to address the issue of shifting and POV-laden interpretations. I suppose this could involve WP:OR concerns if it is stated as explicitly as I just did, unless there are sources that address the shift in opinions... Even if that is the case, I still think that the uncertainty surrounding the event's interpretation should be right up there in sentence 1. I would also like the lede to contain some mention of what would seem to be the strongest piece of evidence in each camp's favor. Essentially, I'm asking you to abandon your current organizational structure in favor of one explicitly designed to address POV concerns.
"At the center of the controversy, yet for the most part silent". I got the Pearson story, and didn't see anything resembling this text. Was Pearson your source? • Ling.Nut09:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean "for the most part silent"? I don't recall that was in Pearson. It is a general summary of the articles that discuss how he hasn't said much about it since shortly after it happened. I can remove it. SlimVirginTALKcontribs09:53, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I mean. I don't see any mention at all of his [the father, you mean?} or anyone's reticence. Moreover — our text says "A psychologist who treated the six remaining children"; the Pearson text says "Mohammed Makhamier, who is involved in counselling the seven remaining Durra children". Oh dear. First, no identification of Makhamier as a psychologist, and second a (minor) miscount.
"For the most part silent" is removed. [35] Will change six to seven. I did name Mohammed Makhamier in an earlier version, but removed it as too much detail. Pearson does not use "psychologist," but I've seen Makhamier described as that elsewhere. I can use therapist if you prefer. Here is the relevant part of the text:
"Death of Mohammed al-Durra haunts Palestinian children by Bryan Pearson, 6 November 2000, Agence France-Presse
GAZA CITY, Nov 6 (AFP) - A sister of Mohammed al-Durra, the young Palestinian boy whose widely televised death by Israeli gunfire in late September has become a symbol of the intifada, believes a ghost follows her everywhere, waiting to kill her.
Two of his brothers wet their beds at night and have frequent nightmares, while a third refuses to believe Mohammed is dead.
These symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are not confined to the Durra children, according to therapists counselling young Palestinians struggling to come to terms with the killings and violence currently characterising life in the Gaza Strip and West Bank ...
The repeated broadcasting of Mohammed's death is having a particularly devastating effect, she [Rawya Hamam, a therapist from the Gaza Community Mental Health Association] said.
The footage shows 11-year-old Mohammed cowering in terror next to his father, who is signalling for help from behind the small concrete wall where they are trapped; then being struck by bullets; and finally lying slumped across his wounded father's lap.
The boy was killed just days after the September 28 start of the intifada when he and his father were caught at the centre of a fierce firefight between Israelis and Palestinians near the Jewish settlement of Netzarim, just outside Gaza City.
Hamam said children have taken to re-enacting the scene on school playgrounds, one child taking the part of the father, the other of Mohammed ...
Mohammed Makhamier, who is involved in counselling the seven remaining Durra children, said the family has been especially traumatised, not only because of Mohammed's death but also due to the intense media attention on them and because of the repeated screening of the incident on television.
Nora, 6, the one who sees the ghost, is afraid to sleep at night because of recurring nightmares. The children, he says, have become more isolated and withdrawn and no longer want to go to school.
While most of the children believe their brother is now "a bird in Paradise," Adam, 7, still believes Mohammed, "who used to protect me from the bullies at school," will come walking home one of these days ..."
Your very first link is to a YouTube video that no longer exists. In its absence, can you justify the words "slumps forward" in the lede? I don't remember that description in Schwartz, but my memory is poor....no, I just checked, and Scwartz doesn't mention any slumping motion. Moreover, wouldn't a description of a YouTube video be WP:OR? Not that it matters.. you have to get rid of the cite anyhow, since the video is gone... • Ling.Nut10:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I saw Wehwalt's "Arab street" concerns. This sentence is obviously a rephrasing of the info about "brutality" taken from Patience, as given in the lede. It may or may be an accurate rephrasing, but that would seem to be its source.• Ling.Nut13:11, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still finding "after which the boy slumps forward" completely unacceptable. I saw the video (WP:OR, but wait). There's no slumping motion. There's dust and out-of-focus jiggling, and then a boy in his father's lap. Schwartz didn't mention slumping, IIRC. One editorial source uses past tense and says "slumped in his father's lap", but "slumped"is poetic license here, and Wikipedia is not in the business of disseminating poetic license. Try Schwartz's text instead. • Ling.Nut02:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused, is the concern that reliable sources don't say the boy slumped over, or that editors don't see the boy slumping over in the video? The latter of these sounds like original research to me, while the former can be readily supported with sources:
William Orme, New York Times, "A Young Symbol of Mideast Violence", October 2, 2000 - "...the enduring image of the violence was a terrified Muhammad al-Durrah trapped by Israeli gunfire and then slumping lifeless into his father's lap."
Suzanne Goldberg, The Guardian, "Making of a martyr", October 3, 2000 - "That is what marks the spot where a terrified 12-year-old boy spent his final moments, cowering in his father's arms, before he was hit by a final shot to the stomach, and slumped over, dead."
Amy Waldman, New York Times, "Times Square Marchers Protest Killing of Palestinians", October 7, 2000 - "Several [protesters] said they would not forget the image of Muhammad slumped in his father's arms, an image shown frequently on television and in the nation's newspapers this week."
Lynne Duke, Washington Post, "Half a World From Gaza, a Crisis Still Hits Home", October 16, 2000 - "...Muhammad al-Durrah, cowering for cover in his father's lap, then slumping over lifelessly from a fatal bullet wound..."
Deborah Sontang, New York Times, "Whose Holy Land?: The victims; Israel in Shock as It Buries Mob's Victim", October 14, 2000 - "Muhammad was the 12-year-old shot dead by Israeli troops in a gun battle in Gaza, caught on film by a French cameraman, as the boy cowered behind his father and then slumped dead in his lap."
William Orme, New York Times, "Israeli Army Says Palestinians May Have Shot Gaza Boy", November 28, 2000 - "Doctors in Gaza who examined the boy said that he had been shot through the upper abdomen and that the back wound his father had seen as the boy slumped over was an exit injury."
Henri Astier, BBC News, "Gaza media battle in French court", November 13, 2007, "When Muhammad slumps to the ground, the reporter's script says the boy is dead and the father wounded."
Those sources are repeating a meme; the grammar is ambiguous in most cases as to whether the boy is seen slumping. the other cases are secondhend meme stuff again. • Ling.Nut09:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia "whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true"? Am I missing some nuance in what you object to? Do you just want it to say "after which the boy is seen slumped forward" instead of "after which the boy slumps forward"? I don't particularly distinguish between the two, so either is fine with me. ← Georgetalk09:37, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ling.Nut, I understand your concerns, but here's the problem. We could change that sentence to something like: "The dramatic footage ... shows ... a burst of gunfire and dust, after which the boy is reported to have slumped forward and his father appears injured," or, "The dramatic footage ... shows ... a burst of gunfire and dust, after which the boy is seen lying across his father's legs, and the father appears injured."
The problem with both of those is that they signal too clearly that we're distancing ourselves. It would be like describing the crucial moment of the Kennedy assassination in the lead, as " The footage shows a burst of what was reported as gunfire, during which Mrs. Kennedy reportedly cradled her husband then appeared to leap to the back of the car." By writing like that, we immediately signal to the reader that we're distancing ourselves for some reason, even though the sources say Kennedy was shot, and that she was either trying to shield herself, or was trying to retrieve part of his head.
That Muhammad al-Durrah was not shot and killed is a very very small-minority thesis. I'm avoiding the use of "tiny minority" here, because it implies that it doesn't even belong in the article, though there are editors (good editors) who I think might argue that. Most of the reliable sources who have expressed concern about this footage argue simply that it did not show the boy had died, though Enderlin implied that it did, and that it did not show the Israelis shooting him, though Enderlin implied that it did. Out of that legitimate criticism of Enderlin's journalism, other commentators have developed a conspiracy theory that the boy wasn't really shot at all, and isn't really dead; or that some other boy was shot and killed, and that it's his funeral we see, and that the cameraman simply switched the names (or something like that -- there are a number of variations, some less coherent than others).
What you're suggesting is that, upfront in the lead with our very first description of this footage, we give credence to those very-small-minority views. That is what we're trying hard not to do. I've written this article so that those views are constantly hovering in the background, as it were (note the title -- it's not the "death of Muhammad al-Durrah," the normal title for this kind of story; note the lack of a date of death; note the lack of Template:Infobox person, which includes the date of death parameter) but without at the same time slanting the writing to the point where I'm saying right from the start, "Hey, look, there's something dodgy about this story." It has been a difficult balance to achieve, and I don't think we should take it further in either direction. SlimVirginTALKcontribs09:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You keep repeating this "small minority" comment; I'd {{fact}} tag you if this were mainspace. My point is this: The quotes that George dragged up all look very suspiciously like quotes in which the article never mentions watching the end of the video. If that's true, then it also looks very suspiciously like the output of people slurping their morning coffee, sitting at their desks, regurgitating an Internet meme, and getting paid very serious mony for it (as "journalists"). The Schwartz quote explicitly references viewing the video repeatedly... so... here's the deal: very unfortunately, it's the week before Finals week here. I will be busy busy busy. Ideally, I would like to line up quotes from those who discuss repeatedly viewing the video and those who do not, and see whether text such as the following is doable: "although many journalists reported that the boy slumped after the gunfire, those who mentioned that they watched he video carefully reported only a cloud of dust, a boy lying in his father's lap, and then a brief motion from the boy raising his hands". Or something. You can make it read better. • Ling.Nut02:00, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not comfortable trying to infer how much research journalists did or didn't do, based solely on whether they explicitly mentioned watching the video to the end. That's the whole reason Wikipedia relies on information published in reliable sources—we're trusting those sources for their editorial oversight and fact checking. Rejecting multiple articles published by The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and the BBC based on our own inferences doesn't sit well with me. Furthermore, the Schwartz article doesn't says that the boy didn't slump over, or that reports of the boy slumping over were somehow inaccurate or exaggerated. So essentially, you're surmising that all the journalists published in reliable sources were wrong because of what they didn't mention, while arguing that we should reword this statement based on what another journalist, Schwartz, didn't mention? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! But best of luck with your finals. ← Georgetalk03:20, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need luck for the finals; I need a painkiller. I'm a professor, not a student. ;-) As for your long discussion of your discomfort etc.: I am only interested in accurately representing the sources. If they say they watched it and say their descriptions are a result, I am interested in including that. If they do not, I am interested in including that. If the grammar of their statements suggests or does not suggest visible movement, I am interested in that. I want their statements to be represented excruciatingly accurately. • Ling.Nut04:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ling.Nut, I've changed that sentence to, "The dramatic footage, which lasts just over a minute, shows the pair holding onto each other, the boy crying and the father waving, then a burst of gunfire and dust, after which the boy is seen lying across his father's legs, with his father appearing injured." [38] But I think we need to be very careful what we're doing here, because we're taking the lead too far in the direction of the small-minority theories. I'll write more later trying to show that they're small minorities, but it's a difficult thing to do, because most of the journalists who've written a lot about the al-Durrah case have simply ignored the alternative theories as not worth mentioning.
Also, if we were to start trying to evaluate which journalists did and didn't watch the footage carefully, that would be the essence of original research. The footage is anyway not hard to watch carefully, because there isn't much to see. It is clear at the very end -- the final scene that France 2 cut -- that the boy moves slightly. It is undeniable. The question is how to interpret that, if at all. Was it just a twitching movement of someone dying, and therefore not journalistically relevant? That is the argument of the key players who have commented on it, though most journalists have simply ignored it. Or was it the boy peeking at the camera? That is the small-minority theory. Getting into who did or didn't watch the footage carefully would not take us anywhere, and even if it did, it would be OR. SlimVirginTALKcontribs12:30, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For Ling.Nut: some indications of what the majority view is
There are three key stages in the development of the story:
The shooting and the reportage from 2000 to 2004 roughly. During these years, there is no question that the majority view in the media was that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) shot the boy and he died. I don't think anyone would dispute that this was the majority view at that time.
January 2005-2008, when three senior French journalists, who had been given access to the raw footage in October 2004, wrote critically about it, two of them in Le Figaro. This resulted in stories less certain that the Israelis had shot him.
May 2008 to the present, when Philippe Karsenty was cleared of libel by the Paris Court of Appeal for saying France 2 had broadcast a staged scene. The ruling simply meant that Karsenty was exercising his right to comment, by the way -- the court did not examine the substantive issue.
In October 2004, three senior French journalists viewed France 2's raw footage. Two them concluded (a) that the footage did not show the boy dying, contrary to the impression given by Charles Enderlin's original report, (b) that it did not show the IDF had shot him, contrary to Enderlin's report, and that therefore (c) Enderlin should not have concluded that the boy had been the "target of fire from the Israeli positions." However, these two journalists stressed that, when the shooting starts, it is real, and that the event was not staged. The third journalist who viewed the footage disagreed, and declared that the event had been staged, and that it was "almost the perfect media crime." See this section of the article for the details.
As a result of this debate, the news editor of France 2 declared in 2005 that no one can say for sure who fired the shots. That is almost certainly the current majority view, namely that the the incident was not staged, the boy was shot and did die, but no one knows who shot him. SlimVirginTALKcontribs16:55, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SV, I don't wan to break in to the middle, so if you are planning to add more comments, please feel free to drop this down to the end, but when you say that the court found that Karsanty "was exercising the right to comment", why should this article not include the information here that the court stated that Karsanty marshaled a "coherent mass of evidence" in defending against the network's claim? Doesn't this elevate it to far more than a fringe theory? After all, this is the only judicial opinion we have (leaving aside the overruled lower court) and it has ruled what I just said.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am planning to add more if I can find material that helps. What I'm looking for are mainstream news organizations since 2005 who have written about this to see what language they use regarding the death issue. Still looking.
Regarding "coherent mass of evidence," my understanding of the ruling is that K's claims were coherent and therefore he had to be allowed to express them. I do take your point about this being the only judicial opinion available. It has been difficult to know how to handle it. SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a considerable difference between "right of expression" and has a "considerable body of evidence". I can say Obama (or Bush if you prefer) is crazy, and nothing can be done to me because I am free to express my view. However, my opinion on his sanity won't be given much weight by a court, because I have no mental health training and haven't met the man. However, if a court finds I have a considerable mass of evidence that (insert here) is crazy, that is entirely another kettle of fish, and my belief should be given considerable more weight (and yes, on Wikipedia) than some random guy.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And one thing more, apologies if I cause an edit conflict. Looking at Karsanty's organizations webpage here (google translate result) there seem to be several useful links, that might be useful in presenting Karsanty's present position, and the reaction to it. You do seem to have used the Wall Street Journal Europe article, however, there are others. Even if you editorally don't want to use them for valid reason, do they not go to the weight of what may or may not be a majority or minority view (assuming, doubtfully, that this can be determined)?--Wehwalt (talk) 17:35, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added coherent mass of evidence to the lead, making it clear that the court didn't rule on the accuracy of the report itself. [39] I can't see any material on the Karsenty site that would be useful, apart from things we've already used. Did you have anything particular in mind? SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:50, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get back to you later. That isn't the lede, by the way, it is part of the article body unless I am missing something. And I would think the Hebrew Calendar is widespread enough that you shouldn't have had to add a publisher. Common knowledge.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding how to judge what the majority POV is, this May 27, 2008 editorial in the Wall Street Journal Europe might be helpful. [40] They have been sympathetic to the Karsenty position, namely that the incident was staged. They wrote after the May 2008 verdict in Karsenty's favour:
You probably didn't hear this news. International media lapped up the televised report of al-Durra's shooting on France's main state-owned network, France 2. Barely a peep was heard, however, when the Paris Court of Appeal ruled in a suit brought by the network against the founder of a media watchdog group. The judge's verdict, released Thursday, said that Philippe Karsenty was within his rights to call the France 2 report a "hoax," overturning a 2006 decision that found him guilty of defaming the network and its Mideast correspondent, Charles Enderlin.
Also worth bearing in mind is this: if this incident was staged, it means that King Hussein of Jordan and Colonel Gadaffi of Libya, who visited Jamal in hospital, were part of the conspiracy or had the wool pulled over their eyes, as did all the doctors who treated Jamal, the doctors who received Muhammad, and the pathologist who examined him, the hospital that certified him dead, and several of the key mourners at the funeral. Muhammad's family are in on it, obviously, pretending to be grief-stricken. Despite the money that Israel pays out regularly to Palestinian informants, not one of them has stepped forward in 10 years with information that Muhammad is still alive, or with a photograph of him, or with the story of how they pulled off the hoax. Despite the very large amounts of money the media and book publishers would pay for the story, Muhammad himself, now 22, has also failed to step forward, even though doing so would make him rich. SlimVirginTALKcontribs19:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I hardly think FAC is the venue for that argument. Here's another source from the Karsenty website, here, you asked for possible sources lined from there. Umm, SV, are you saying that the WSJ "have been sympathetic to the Karsenty position" for reporting it? Would you be willing to characterize the position of media who reported the original story in terms of sympathy?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was a WSJ editorial, unsigned, meaning the newspaper's editorial board approved it. They are clearly sympathetic to the Karsenty position, as they happily confirm. SlimVirginTALKcontribs19:59, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moutet notes that "All of those present at the [Le Figaro] screening-illustrious visitors and France 2 executives alike, the op-ed recounted-had ended up in full agreement that it was impossible to determine where the bullets had come from, but that it was highly unlikely that they could have come from the Israeli garrison." is this in the story anywhere? • Ling.Nut09:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That particular quote isn't, but there's a lot about the reaction of the people who were present. See the France 2 exec in the third paragraph of the lead, that no one could say who fired the shots (she was at the screening), and the section here about the three senior French journalists who attended it. SlimVirginTALKcontribs18:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I want to apologize again for being so disengaged as you face a (somewhat) rough nom (but not as rough as RCC forex). I think the link to "fifth grade" is a bit of a minor Easter egg; text should say some like "fifth grade in a Palestinian school" (you can make it sound better), with the link on the last two words for clarity. I think the "The scene on the day" section is a bit odd, since the images precede the text and take up a lot of vertical real estate before the text begins. Two or at most three sentences before the images would seem less odd. Finally, if you think the reviewers are POV or have shifted the article too far toward one POV, then move some evidence from the Palestinian POV to the lead. ... the fact that no one has seen the boy, or the father's offer to let the body be exhumed, perhaps? Oh and that "minimalist/maximilist" explanation seems lead-worthy as well. Up to you. • Ling.Nut05:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added something about the independent group and polygraph/disinterment offer to the lead, and moved a paragraph above the diagrams in the Scene on the day section. [41] Can't see what to do about the fifth grade thing. I would prefer not to have it there. One of the reviewers asked for it. SlimVirginTALKcontribs06:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And a message from the Truly Picky department: many of your external links in the refs/cites are missing access date info. I have no idea whether this info is required or not, but I do believe consistency is required. So... hey, just work on the cites a bit. • Ling.Nut06:27, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The only ones that need access dates are where the material appeared only on a website, not in print. I think they do all have access dates, though I'll check again. SlimVirginTALKcontribs06:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added access to dates to everything that exists online, even if it's in print too. Once this FA is over (if it is ever over!), I'll ask at WP:CITE whether there was consensus for that change. SlimVirginTALKcontribs07:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concerned. I think you've pushed it too far in the direction of the Palestinian POV. Such an offer, to offer to have disinterred an unembalmed body unprotected against the elements, what difference does that make after all this time? And to have a polygraph test taken on someone who was not there? What's that got to do with the price of pita? To have these things presented in this manner is not NPOV. I've held my nose on a lot of things in the interest of seeing a difficult nomination through in the interests of the encyclopedia. Ling Nut said, "if you think" that the reviewers have pushed the article in a certain direction, you can do such and such, he did not say you should or ask you to do it. You've taken the comment as carte blanche. Will wait and see what you do, but the lede is now bloated and unbalanced.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt, if you want to oppose, please do, and we can leave it up to the delegates. For their information, Wehwalt objects to this being added to the lead:
In September 2008, Patrick de Carolis, the CEO of France Télévisions, which runs France 2, agreed to set up an independent group of experts to examine the issues.[12] Enderlin and Abu Rahma have offered to take polygraph tests if the soldiers at the IDF outpost take one too, and Jamal has said he is willing to have the boy's body disinterred."[13]
I've been willing to go along with Wehwalt's suggestions, but I have to draw a line now, both because I don't want the article to go too far in the direction of his POV (or anyone else's), and also because this is but flesh and blood that types here. I rewrote this article in October, which took a couple of weeks. I worked on it again in December and submitted it on December 31. At that point, I basically did another rewrite, mostly at Wehwalt's request, and extended several sections, which took me until January 14 of fairly solid work. And bear in mind that the edits you see tell only half the story, or less, because a lot of research went into this too. I've responded to all suggestions promptly. I've removed most of the images, though I believe some of them were needed for neutrality. It's now January 24. I'm done. I want my life back. The question is whether it's FA standard, and I believe it is, not whether it's perfect. So let the chips fall where they may. :)
Weak Support. I don't believe there's any such thing as a Right Version of this article. There's nothing in here that would make me throw an NPOV-based hissy fit, though. May need more nitpicky edits, etc, though. • Ling.Nut07:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I want to clarify that my remarks about "NPOV-based hissy fit" were about my tendency to do that (see forex Climate change denial). I just returned from dinner with the wife, and while eating it struck me that others may have misinterpreted my remarks. • Ling.Nut11:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I am sympathetic to SV's point of view, but this is why this article should have gone to peer review in the first place. We've spent several hundred thousand bytes trying to bring it to something approaching a neutral point of view, then at a slight suggestion from Ling Nut that she add on more Palestinian POV, she immediately does so, at some length. I'm sorry, if the article was satisfactory to both of us before, then why the addition? Yes, this has been a difficult FAC. It happens. It's an object lesson in why you seek outside feedback (that is, not in the hothouse of an article talk page or a WikiProject) before you bring an article to FAC. There remains considerable point of view in this article, much of which is expressed by choice of words and choice of position (in an overwhelming majority of crucial paragraphs and sections, though I will say not all), there is a choice to end with the Palestinian point of view. I'm not going to get into a numbers game, because some are debatable, but that's what I see in the article. I am somewhat distressed by this. I felt that we had reached a satisfactory accommodation, but going on and loading on one side of the scale does cause a problem, even if it makes me look indecisive. The delegates know I've worked with SV on this review and remained engaged and open to reconsideration. But reconsideration is a two way street. I should add that the oppose is clearly actionable. At this point, I am going to disengage, unwatch, and save some pixels. If further reconsideration is wanted, my talk page is always open. Note that I need the NFCC issues resolved too, but that's all I'm asking.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:49, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No opinion yet. That said, I think this article is a monster - there are potential POV problems waiting to break out on practically every word. The fact that the editors have got this close does them immense credit. I'm unsure it's ready yet for featured status, as I have some sympathy for various unaddressed issues above, and think there are probably others not yet raised, but I'd like to see it given the best chance of succeeding. For that reason, I'm commenting now to gently suggest to the FAC delegates that they let this one run for some time longer than they might otherwise do. And a suggestion to everyone - this page is likely to get very long - use of collapsing boxes for issues everyone agrees are addressed would be a good idea. --Dweller (talk) 09:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ealdgyth
Comments -
Just a note here, I'm not doing an indepth review of whether or not the sources used are used "properly", just whether they meet the minimum standard for RS for Wikipedia. Given the nature of this article, I doubt that misuse of sources would escape other editors. I've also done some small ref tweaks to various and sundry formatting glitches.
Need to note non-English languages in the references.
On the Barnes and Noble ref, are you referencing the B&N blurb on the webpage or the book itself? If the book, title should be in italics.
the Feb 8, 2005 BBC ref needs a last accessdate.
The Hebrew Calender ref, needs a publisher, and what makes this a reliable source?
The Juffa ref needs a publisher
One further concern is that not all the newspaper article links go to the respective paper's websites. We need to make sure that we are not linking to copyright violations, and that all the various sites used for these courtesy links have the right to reprint the articles.
The dates you added to the Refs section have made the Refs inconsistent with the in-text citations (e.g. Smith 2005).
I think it's obvious the French articles are in French. Are you saying I need to add "French" somewhere?
I'm referencing the Barnes and Noble blurb, not the book.
The Hebrew Calendar isn't used as a source as I recall; it's just see also in the footnote.
Will check out the Juffa ref.
I don't know how we can check that the courtesy link sites have the right to reprint the articles. Are you saying I should email them and ask if they have permission? I'm not going to do that, so I'd suggest simply removing any links you think may be copyright violations. SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to revert my ref tweaks, that's fine. But please note that you'll need to go through and make all the newspaper titles consistent with quotation marks around them. Also I added a few missing dates. I don't make the rules on the MOS, it says that we have to label non-English sources with the language used. I agree, it's a silly rule, but it's unfortunatly required. As for the courtesy links, it isn't my job to make sure there are no copyright violations, it is the job of the nominators, I'm afraid. After trying to help by doing a good chunk of ref tweaks, and getting told I did it wrong, I can't say I'm inclined to do much else here. But, generally, any site that has permission to reprint an article will note that on the page hosting the reprint. If that information isn't there, then it's probably best to remove the link. Ealdgyth - Talk17:08, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I won't revert, it's fine. I think I'll leave all the links in for the time being, because otherwise reviewers will ask me to start quoting from articles they can't read, but perhaps at the very end of the review, I'll remove any that appear to be copyright violations. I can only think of one offhand that might be -- a page that reproduces two articles from Le Figaro. SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that's just a guideline. I really don't want to have to go around adding "Le Figaro, a French-language newspaper," as the guideline suggests, when the writer's name is French and the headline French. :) SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's part of hte MOS, which is part of the FA criteria. The specific one is #2, "It follows the style guidelines, including the provision of...". At the top of Wikipedia:Linking it says "This guideline is a part of the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style.". I don't like it much either, it's always struck me as pretty silly, but... Ealdgyth - Talk17:43, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SV, as a piece of advice, there are lots of bits of the MOS that strike me as silly, but they are just hoops you have to jump through to get a FA. In the time you take to argue about it, they can be corrected. Please don't get me started on the non breaking spaces rules. And have you seen the video linked yesterday at WT:FAC? I share the lead writer's views on en dashes ...--Wehwalt (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, but the problem is that, if writers keep on "obeying" these rules, reviewers will continue to insist on them. Every time I approach FAC, I'm asked to do more and more. Instruction creep does creep forward, not backwards. I even did ALT text this time without a whimper, though I'm sorry to see that effort remains unacknowledged. :)
(ec) I have a script for n-dashes. And I have Malleus who does my non-breaking spaces, thank the gods. Citations, however, I've got to do myself. And they make my eyes bleed. (Hell, today, running through FAC is making my eyes bleed... blech! 8 more to go!) SV, if you get the language thing removed, I will thank you forever (not that I have to worry about it, I do not use non-English sources, thankfully.) The subtitles are down in the lower right corner of the video box, mouse over the little icons and you should get a pop-up that turns on subtitles. Ealdgyth - Talk17:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) Can I ask that the last three little piddling things get taken care of so I can strike them off? BBC ref needs a last accessdate, the Hebrew Calendar ref needs figuring out if its reliable or not (plus a publisher) and the language thing needs dealing with. The other two issues are notes for other reviewers, so they won't need to be struck for my work here to be done. (Frankly, the other issues on this FAC are swamping my watchlist...)Ealdgyth - Talk03:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The enhanced ref, or the use of it in the first place? The former, I don't know. The latter, I added it because we were discussing time and dates in Israel, and the fact that it was Rosh Hashana that day. So I added a 2000 Hebrew calendar. SlimVirginTALKcontribs12:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a note, I see no particular reason to have to cite the date of Rosh Hashana. I think it falls under common knowledge. The Hebrew Calendar is fairly widespread.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He said there was no evidence that the boy was wounded in his right leg or abdomen, as reported, and that if the injuries were genuine, they did not occur at the time of the televised events. Had the shots come from the Israeli position, he wrote, only the lower limbs could have been hit." Somewhere in here an opening quotation mark is missing. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Second Intifada section: I've added a sentence from the Mitchell report noting that Sharon's visit did not cause the Intifada, though it was poorly timed, and a longer quote to the same effect in a footnote.
Charles Enderlin section: A bit more detail about who Enderlin is, how he was perceived at the time, and where he was during the incident.
A new section called The scene on the day, with two subsections describing the layout of the junction, which news organizations were there, and what their raw footage showed.
I'm not fully convinced it is NPOV. I was especially struck by the loss of the "substantial body of evidence" (I probably misquoted) statement in what otherwise seems a comprehensive description of the France 2 appeal. After my objection re IDF taking responsibility, it seems still a very misleading and incomplete way of putting it in the lede; the reader is going to take that as an admission of guilt, and the IDF's current position is never made as clear in the lede. There are a number of other matters. I will continue to await fuller discussion before taking a final position, but I still think this article would benefit from peer review, rather than trying to make it work with extensive changes at FAC, which is really not what we're here for.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt, the article can't be pushed as far as you would like in the direction of the alternative theories. I've taken Ling.Nut's advice to expand on those theories so that readers can make up their own minds, so it's now considerably more comprehensive than it was, and I think clearer and easier to follow. As for the IDF, they did say they were responsible on day three or four; see this section. Their subsequent October 2000 investigation was somewhat unofficial and widely scoffed at, including in Israel itself.
As for the lead, the writing has to be kept tight, and we can't get into summarizing the ruling without explaining what we mean by the summary, so it opens a can of worms and would lead to a POV treatment. As it stands, we just say in the lead that his libel conviction was overturned. SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I read your comment as saying you'd like to see "substantial body of evidence" in the lead again, and I explain why it's problematic. And you feel that saying the IDF accepted responsibility within a few days is misleading, and I explain that they did, and that their subsequent investigation that overturned it is regarded as questionable. What did I miss? SlimVirginTALKcontribs18:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you talk above about the IDF's current position. Do you know what it is? All I'm finding are contradictory statements from people not clearly in charge, something they've been criticized for by the alternative theorists, because they're not coming out with a clear position. SlimVirginTALKcontribs18:52, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am sure they are hoping the incident goes away! Good point, I will amend that to say "later position". No, I'm not asking for the "coherent mass of evidence" to be in the lede, I'm asking for it to be in the body. As for the IDF, the statements from the days after the incident considerably varied, yet you summarize it as an acceptance of responsibility. I should note that I do not believe your cite to the Toronto Star of 10/4/00 is sufficient, we usually insist on the article name, the author if there is a byline, and either the page number or an online link.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Toronto Star cite in the Ref section is: "The Toronto Star (October 4, 2000). "Israel admits to killing boy, 12." No byline. I will look to see if it's online, but I think the Star is Canwest, and they're not good with their online archives. "Coherent mass of evidence" is in the body of the article in the Appeal upheld section. Israel did accept responsibility. The named chief of the army did, the named government spokesmen did. It was others who didn't -- people not in charge. I think the section makes that clear enough. I could rename the subhead to "initial Israeli response," but as it's in the "Incident as initially reported" section, I felt that was already clear. SlimVirginTALKcontribs14:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it is a pain with former canada.com articles, but such is Wikipedia, we have high standards for citation at FAC. As for talking about the acceptance of responsibility, I'm talking about the lede this time. As for Israeli command structure, are you saying that those not in charge set out to undermine their superiors' acceptance of responsibility? I think that that would really have to be cited, whether you are saying it or just implying it. Keep in mind that this would be the case in any nominated article. The lede would need to fairly reflect what's in the body, and if similar implications are made, the nominator would be expected to back it up.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)--Wehwalt (talk) 14:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"As for talking about the acceptance of responsibility, I'm talking about the lede this time." Not sure what you mean by this. The lead makes clear that the army accepted responsibility within a few days. And they did. It also makes clear that over the following months and years, this came to be questioned. Now, I can add to the first mention of responsibility in the lead that it was later somewhat altered, but it would be over-egging the pudding somewhat (the lead doth protesteth too much). Also, have you read the section on the October 2000 IDF investigation? It involved replicas being built in the desert by people with no ballistics training. People were laughing at it. Haaretz said, "it is hard to describe in mild terms the stupidity of this bizarre investigation." So we can't represent that in the lead as, "They initially said they did it, but a later IDF investigation showed otherwise," as if the later investigation was a formal and respected one.
Regarding your question about the lower ranks undermining the superiors, no source that I've found says that explicitly, but it's clearly what happened, which is how you ended up with the strange October 2000 investigation. Some IDF people were furious that the IDF accepted responsibility, and did it so fast. I can perhaps find a source that says that. SlimVirginTALKcontribs15:00, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More NPOV concerns: I'd like to see the instances of "shooting" changed to "incident"; I'd like some of the experts mentioned in the lede (facial recogniton, ballistics, etc.); I'd like "Muhammad was buried" altered to a non-NPOV stance ("a burial was held for a boy identified as Muhammad" e.g.). I am truly and sincerely sorry that I am dashing in and out. My remarks are not complete. I sincerely apologize. • Ling.Nut02:44, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can look to remove instances of "shooting." The other suggestions I'd feel uncomfortable with, because it buys too much into the alternative theories. The facial recognition man was commissioned by the German television program. The French ballistics man commissioned by Karsenty. That doesn't make them wrong, but it does mean they're not independent sources. They're also barely mentioned by reliable sources, so I feel it would be UNDUE to add them to the lead. I'll try to find a workaround for the funeral wording. SlimVirginTALKcontribs14:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even the BBC article that you use as support, only says that the IDF officer said that Israelis were "apparently" or "probably" responsible. You delete the caveat. How about something like "While initial IDF statments indicated that it was likely responsible for al-Durrah's death, it subsequently conducted a controversial investigation that it states eliminated the possibility that the boy could have been hit by Israeli fire." Also, still waiting for resolution on the "coherent mass of evidence" thing in the article body.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you're referring to about deleting the caveat. I obviously hadn't made clear enough how off-the-wall the October 2000 investigation was, so I've tried to clarify that section. See Muhammad al-Durrah incident#IDF investigation (October 2000).
... well, I'd hardly call that completely neutral. Regardless of whether you feel the IDF investigation was a comedy routine, it appeared to form part of the Israeli position. I would say that what you are doing is closely analagous to the situation of a defendant who confessed and then withdrew his confession, "He confessed." That would hardly be a fair summation, and it is hardly a fair summation here. I realize you don't think highly of the later Israeli investigation, but firing shots at an identical pipe does seem the way to go.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel anything about the Shahaf/IDF investigation. All I do is report what the sources say about it, and they're uniformly critical so far as I can tell. Even the IDF and the Israeli govt distanced themselves from it, Haaretz calling it almost a pirate endeavour. We therefore can't write about it as though it was a respected, mainstream, official investigation. SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"uniformly critical". It is sweeping statements like that, I suspect, and the effects on the article which come from that, that make it so hard to support. This article says "An Israeli army investigation concluded the gunfire could not have come from their position". This one (different author, same publication says "An Israeli military probe found that its soldiers couldn't have shot the father and son, given where the two were crouching." I will say this. Reviewing a contentious article is difficult. It must have been hard for reviewers when I submitted Natalee Holloway (with two conoms) and Jena Six, because people had strong views about the incidents described. However, we were very careful with the sourcing and how we characterized them, and that never became a serious issue. You need to do exactly the same thing. You need to make very sure that reviewers, especially those who interact with you here, are not left with the perception, possibly unjust, that every time you flip a coin in characterizing sources and quotes, that it does not come down on the side with the P mintmark. I am being blunt, while continuing to engage with you here. Please consider what I am saying as an attempt to help you. As I have said before, it would be the simplest thing possible for me to have maintained my oppose and gone away. I am trying to assist you.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have a strong POV on this issue, and it makes things awkward. I don't mean that disrespectfully and I hope it doesn't sound as though it is. I appreciate the input. But if I were to accede to your every request, the article would be unacceptably slanted in favour of the alternative theories. I feel you're picking and choosing which sources to highlight. I know that it's hard to do otherwise, because the only alternative is for you to spend weeks reading all the sources, so that you know which ones are representative. But that leaves a problem for me. I've been reading about this since 2006, and reading about it carefully since I started the re-write in October 2009. My reading of the sources as a whole is that the alternative views are more or less ignored by mainstream sources, and most of those who do report on them positively do so with caution. That the sources were "uniformly critical" is a fact. The Wall Street Journal opinion piece that you cite was written by Nidra Poller, who has been heavily involved in promoting the minority thesis. One of the problems here is that you're allowing all the sources equal weight.
Anyway, the point is that I can't slant this article any further in the direction you want. I'm sorry. I do thank you for your input so far, which has helped me to see areas that needed to be clarified. SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone has a POV on a lot of things. I'm generally sympathetic to the subjects of my bio articles, less so to the Nazi and sympathiser I wrote about, both of which are FA's. But the trick is not to make it show in the writing. You are welcome, and if it is OK, I will continue to comment. If you are interested, personally I think the boy probably died, but that it is just impossible to tell who killed him, and not really that relevant anyway which bullet "done him in". Best,--Wehwalt (talk) 17:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Our personal sympathies or POVs are irrelevant. We should rely on what reliable sources say, which is something we've been disucssing on the talk page for some months now. As SlimVirgin stated, the vast majority of reliable sources were highly critical of General Samia's investigation. Your links to an op-ed by Nidra Poller in the WSJ Europe, and an article that cites Poller in the sentence immediately prior to your selected quotation ("But nagging doubts soon emerged, as Nidra Poller recounts here. An Israeli military probe found that its soldiers couldn't have shot the father and son, given where the two were crouching.") have little bearing on how most reliable sources reported on the investigation.
Normally this would be too much detail for such a discussion, but since editors here haven't been privileged to the full discussion and source review for the last several months, it might be helpful to discuss how reliable sources reported the investigations & comments about them:
Muhammad and Jamal al-Durrah are shot.
Three days later, General Giora Eiland, Israeli Army Chief of Operations, said "There was an investigation by the major-general of the southern command and apparently (the boy was killed by) Israeli army fire at the Palestinians who were attacking them violently with a great many petrol bombs, rocks and very massive fire."[46] The Major General of the Southern Command was Yom-Tov Samia.
Nahum Shahaf, a civilian Israeli physicist, watches the video, notices an "apparent anomaly."[47]
Shahaf contacts Yosef Duriel, an Israeli engineer, after reading an editorial Duriel wrote that criticized the IDF for not saying that the Palestinians had used al-Durrah as a human shield. Shahaf proposed they work together on an investigation.
A few weeks after the shooting, Shahaf and Duriel contact General Samia to perform a investigation.[48] Some criticized the investigation because General Samia had an apparent conflict of interest (as the person in charge of the base accused of the shooting), while others criticized the use of civilian investigators (Shahaf had previously, and controversially, raised questions about who shot Yitzhak Rabin). The investigation consists of a reenactment of the shooting at another location (because the IDF bulldozed the original).
Mid-investigation, Duriel does an interview in which he said that the investigation would prove that the Palestinians had deliberately shot the al-Durrahs as propaganda. Samia fired Duriel for his comments.
The investigation is completed, concluding that the Palestinians may have shot the al-Durrahs (the so called "minimalist" alternative theory view). The investigation "never published the report of its findings nor the identity of its members."[49]
The investigation was not accepted as the official Israeli position, and was widely panned by government officials and the media: "Reports say the Israeli army's chief of staff, Gen. Shaul Mofaz, assured Knesset members that Samia acted alone and that the army was investigating his actions. It has been reported that the scientists used by Samia were not ballistic experts and that at least one of them was convinced that Palestinians shot Aldura before they began the project. The Ha'aretz newspaper quoted Knesset member Ofir Pinnes as saying, 'It seems that instead of dealing with the incident and drawing harsh conclusions, the army preferred to conduct a fictitious reconstruction...with preconceived conclusions.'"[50] Ha'aretz wrote that "The fact that an organized body like the IDF, with its vast resources, undertook such an amateurish investigation—almost a pirate endeavor—on such a sensitive issue, is shocking and worrying."[51] Duriel sues a man that sent a letter, critical of the investigation, to the editor of Haaretz. He loses the case. The Israeli judge comments that that investigation was "amateurish, not meticulous, not objective and unprofessional".
And so on... Shahaf & Duriel go off and perform their own investigations. Shahaf collaborates with German journalist Esther Schapira on her documentary in the following year, but is "disappointed" that she only advances the "minimum" version of his case (that the Palestinians may have shot them). Schapira then makes another documentary questioning if the boy was even killed. Karsenty gets sued for his comments, and the case goes back & forth on appeal. Years later, Daniel Seaman, director of the Israeli government press office says he thinks the whole thing is a hoax, but the Israeli government distances itself from his comments. Yada yada yada. ← Georgetalk04:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, a note was left on my talk page. There's now 160K on this nom, so stuff easily gets lost! Right now I am neutral on this article, but may yet take a position. I'm waiting to see how other editors weigh in. I'm also curious to see how the article's very heavy reliance on fair use images gets resolved. We haven't yet had an image check. Watching and waiting. All the best,--Wehwalt (talk) 09:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is a good source, many thanks. I also appreciate your reformatting the references so you can go with one click from teh reference section either to the actual reference or the text. But if I read the piece correctly (definitely usable under WP:SELFPUB, the Israeli position in 2000 was that they has shot the boy, so I drop any quibble on acceptance of responsibility. But you say that it shifted by 2007. If I read the JP piece, the guy is saying that by 2001, Israel was saying that it was unclear who had shot the boy. Suggest you make an appropriate change there.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's clear enough that the change was gradual. Obviously there are two clear points in time -- formal admission in October 2000, then formal withdrawal of that admission in September 2007. But in between there was shifting:
In late October 2000, General Samia set up a controversial team of largely non-military investigators (see below), who concluded that the IDF was probably, or certainly, not responsible, depending on who was issuing the statement. The investigators' report was not published, but was presented in 2001 to the Prime Minister's foreign media adviser, Dr. Ra'anan Gissin, and Daniel Seaman, director of the Israeli government press office. Gissin and Seaman began to challenge France 2 in media interviews, to the point where the network threatened the Prime Minister's office three times with legal action. In 2005, Major-General Eiland publicly retracted the army's admission of responsibility, and in September 2007 a government press office statement to that effect was approved by the Prime Minister's office. Seaman writes that this was done, at least in part, because Israel's reluctance to support Philippe Karsenty in the libel action France 2 had brought against him (see below)—a reluctance based on an unwillingness to appear to interfere in another state's legal proceedings—was being misinterpreted as a validation of the France 2 report.
Selfpub covers more than just cranking your own printing press, it includes questionable sources. It is an op-ed piece, normally that would not be usable, but it can be for Israel's position. I don't see why the statement in the article that by 2001 Israel had taken the position that they didn't shoot the kid and was acting on that is not used instead of 2007. Is there any shifting going on between 2001 and 2007? It seems that they considered the matter closed in 2001, realized that their position was being misinterpreted in 2007, and issued a clarification. It seems pretty clear that by 2001 at the latest, Israel was saying "it wasn't us", the rest is relatively minor.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SELFPUB covers only sources that are clearly self-published. And an SPS is not the same as a questionable source either. This is neither. It's a primary source, perfectly fine to use.
Israel hadn't taken the position that they didn't do it by 2001. It was just individuals in govt challenging the assumption. You seem to read things very differently from me, Wehwalt. :) SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:28, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, we agree it is usable. Nuff said.
The 2001 thing seems to come from this in the JPost article:
The analysis and findings were presented to the prime minister's foreign media adviser, Dr. Ra'anan Gissin, and then to myself in early 2001. After reviewing dozens of hours of materials, and only after all our questions had been addressed to our satisfaction, was our initial skepticism transformed into confidence that there was no basis for the accusations leveled against Israel in the France 2 story. Armed with that knowledge, both Gissin and I, as official representatives of the State of Israel, challenged the integrity of the France 2 report in several media interviews.
While it doesn't say when those challenges took place, the language used seems to suggest a time contemporaneous to 2001. That's what I am going on.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the paragraph I added makes that clear enough, I think. It took them another six years before they could persuade the govt to issue a formal retraction of the admission. SlimVirginTALKcontribs18:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where does it say that "it took them another six years before they could persuae the govt to issue a formal retraction of the admission"? I don't read the article that way. That implies that they were trying and failing to do that. I don't see that anything really happened as regards the Israeli position after 2001 other than a formal statement being issued in 2007. I also don't like the word "admission" in the lede, I would suggest "statement" or "position". Admission is more or less equivalent to confession.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There was an investigation in 2000 that the govt distanced itself from, Seaman got on board in 2001, it took another four years for the IDF to change its position formally, and another two years for the govt to do so formally. They did admit it in 2000. Sorry, I think the confusion within Israel has been made clear enough. If we impose any more clarity on it, we'll be distorting it. :) The fact is, there was internal dissent, internal confusion, inconsistent public statements. And I have length concerns now, so I don't want to go into any more detail on that point. SlimVirginTALKcontribs19:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another update
Just to clarify, in case this page is confusing, I've finished the expansions and clarifications for Ling.Nut and Wehwalt, and the edits I'm making now are just tweaks while I wait for other reviews. I can't see any key issue that is missing or that remains unclear, and I think the length now has to be watched, so I'm reluctant to expand anything else. The changes have been:
Second Intifada section: I've added a sentence from the Mitchell report noting that Sharon's visit did not cause the Intifada, though it was poorly timed, and a longer quote to the same effect in a footnote
Charles Enderlin section: More detail about Enderlin, his stature in France, and where he was during the incident.
A new section called The scene on the day, with two subsections describing the layout of the junction, which news organizations were there, and what their raw footage showed.
Expanded Israeli response section, so I think it's clearer how their position has evolved over time.
Controversy section introduction: attributed "maximalist" and "minimalist" narratives, and who calls the latter a conspiracy theory, explained a little more what the basic problems are.
Support: As this page nears 200kb, I think it is time for those of us who have been watching the discussions to declare our hands. When I first read the article I shared some of the concerns expressed about POV content and questions of balance, though not perhaps to the extent expressed by others here. As a result of the lengthy discussions and negotiations I believe that the article is now as neutral as it is possible to be, given the flammable nature of the topic. No doubt it is impossible to get everyone's agreement on this, but I think SlimVirgin is to be commended for the way she has engaged with the article's critics – who should also be commended for the civil and generally constructive way in which these discussions have been conducted. I don't normally like seeing this degree of debate at FAC, but in this case I think it was justified, and I can't think that such attention would have been devoted to it in any other forum. The article is no doubt capable of further minor improvement, and I may yet essay a few prose tweaks, but overall I am pleased to support the article as it stands; now possibly the most balanced account of the incident and its aftermath available anywhere. Brianboulton (talk) 16:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I'm not quite as enthusiastic as Brian, but I think this article gets the job done in a contentious area. The latest set of changes pushes it over the line for me. Featured articles are not perfection, there is a range in which they fall. I'm not totally convinced it is NPOV, I'm pretty sure it isn't, frankly, but it falls within the acceptable range of views. It is well written, and SlimVirgin has been more amenable to reasonable changes in the article than I expected when this hoorah started. I'm personally fairly weak kneed when reviewers come along and ask for changes, but I won't penalize SV for standing up for her article. I know she is considering at least one more nom in this contentious area of I/P relations, perhaps there will be lessons learned on both sides before she brings another one. Note that the article has yet to have an image check, my support is subject to any necessary changes being made there, it is quite possible that some of the fair use images may need to be looked at. I would not have written the article in the same manner. But it is within WP:WIAFA and ought to pass.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
np. It turned out much better than I expected it too. I think there are still questions about the images, but those will be addressed when one of our image hawks finally reviews the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. I think this is a really good article. As you know, I often complain about tiny writing on maps and diagrams. The map is just on the boundary of readability, but the text on the diagram is way too small. In case it's my machine alone, I checked with His Grace, who said he can just read "Orchard", but nothing else. Do you have control of the original? Can the text-sizes be boosted? There's lots of white space for it. Tony(talk)23:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how to increase only the text, Tony, and I'm wondering if it's anyway better to preserve the original. We do have a copy of it that a Wikipedian made, but it wasn't exactly the same -- some of the angles differed, though in ways that maybe don't matter. I'll try to find it and post it here. We could always just increase the size of the whole thing. SlimVirginTALKcontribs01:03, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We have the image on the right, made by a Wikipedian, but for some reason he changed the angles of the crossroads. Not that it makes a difference, but it's not the same as the cameraman's original, and the writing isn't any much clearer, so I'd prefer to use the original. SlimVirginTALKcontribs01:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is possible the original image can be justified. This ne though, is intended to reproduce a copyrighted drawing, and I suspect it is incorrectly labeled as free use. I'd avoid it.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Slim V, this one is better, although if WP has control of the electronic copy, the blue text could be boosted. It's no big deal, and even if you have to go back to the previous one (which could possibly be positioned "center" and boosted more), I can cope. But in general, I do encourage WPians to be more generous in the font-size on their images, particularly when there's no shortage of space within the image.
I just want to make a point that SV sometimes takes on extremely challenging topics for her FA nominations, particularly WRT sourcing, structure and striking the right balance. Although entirely within our NOR rules, they manage to be original works and are valuable pieces on the Internet (there's no resource like this article, I think, in its synthesis). It's brave, and I think we should be very pleased someone is doing this. Tony(talk)10:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that, Tony.
I've created three versions of the section called "The scene on the day" with various diagrams:
The first is the original cameraman's diagram centered and enlarged; see version one.
The second is a centered and enlarged copy of the cameraman's diagram created by a Wikipedian, but I'm not keen on this because it didn't get the angles quite right; see version two.
The third has the cameraman's original 2000 diagram and the French ballistic expert's 2008 diagram enlarged and side by side, explaining the key difference between them; see version three.
I think my own preference is version three, because it makes things immediately clear for the reader. An objection to it might be that it places the cameraman's version on a par early on with the ballistic expert's version; some editors might object to that because the latter is connected to the alternative theories, and specifically because the ballistics expert was hired by Philippe Karsenty for his appeal in 2008. SlimVirginTALKcontribs17:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The last seems preferable. Please remember that someone owns the copyright on the cameraman's diagram. Therefore, a "reproduction" by a Wikipedian is a reproduction (as you note, somewhat changed) of a copyrighted image, and the Wikipedian has no rights he can release under the Creative Commons license. Even if the original qualifies as fair use, the reproduction cannot.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:33, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt, let me observe that your line that this nomination should fail because it didn't go through GA or peer review first is not admissible. Correct me, please, but I see no such FAC criterion. This is what makes me suspect that there's a prejudgement here, almost on personal grounds. It's only a suspicion, not an accusation, though.
The article, IMO, is just excellent. It's a hard one in which to get the angle right, but the nominator is highly skilled and experienced in (1) sourcing and verification, and (2) attaining NPOV. I think the article is well worth the bronze star as an example of our best work—of WP's ability to debate its way through the delicate issues at play in this article. Tony(talk)10:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two points: first, it's not that freaking excellent. Probably through no fault of the nominator(s), it has a slight "consensual soup" tang to it. Second, and far more importantly — I've always gagged when people type "AGF". But AGF. • Ling.Nut11:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ling, it's not a question of good or bad faith. It's just never a good idea for one reviewer to have so much input when it comes to a delicate POV balance. Wehwalt posted thousands of words, 22kB in around 70 posts, switching from oppose to strong oppose to neutral to weak support and back to oppose, depending on whether he liked what I was writing. That isn't appropriate when it's someone with a strong POV of his own. Otherwise what we're saying is that this one person's point of view may overrule the input of the other reviewers, and the 400 editors who've worked on the article, and the person who's done most of the writing, and that can't be right. An article like this needs to be reviewed by largely disinterested people.
In the hope this makes things easier for reviewers, there are 2321 18 images in the article, 1513 10 of them fair use. This is more fair use than would normally be acceptable in an FA, but if there were ever a strong case for it, it's here. The entire controversy is about the images of the boy: the raw footage and what it shows; the images of the boy in the morgue and hospital; and the images used of him elsewhere and their impact e.g. postage stamps.
Two are diagrams—the France 2 cameraman's and the ballistics expert's—of the junction on the day of the shooting. They are important because there is a key difference between them regarding where the Palestinian police were standing. Both diagrams have been submitted as evidence to court cases in Paris.
This is of the funeral. It is taken from a documentary about the incident, though who originally filmed it is unknown. Some sources say the boy at the funeral is clearly Muhammad, though others say it is not him, including a facial-recognition expert.
This was taken by the pathologist in the Gaza hospital morgue, and released to a German documentary-maker and others. Again, it is used for comparison purposes with the image in the funeral. Some sources are arguing it is not Muhammad. The article would be significantly less informative without those two images.
A frame from footage taken of the same scene from a different angle by Reuters, and owned by them. It is being used to show that another cameraman did film the situation, though he didn't film the shooting. Jamal's hand can be seen in the lower left of the image. This image is also widely available.
This is an image of unknown provenance that was obtained by the German documentary-maker. She said in the documentary that she does not know where it came from. It appears to be Muhammad, and he seems to be wearing the same shirt that was seen in the raw footage.
This image of Jamal in hospital the day after the incident is included because his injuries are being questioned. Copyright is France 2, but these images were also released for free by the network.
This image of stamps that bear the al-Durrahs' image, as an example of the tributes that were paid across the Arab and Muslim world.
Until a couple of days ago, it was used only in the lower section. Then I enlarged it, and added it to the earlier section next to the cameraman's diagram, for the sake of comparison. I was unsure whether to remove it from the lower section at that point, or leave it there for the reader to look at again, so I left it. If it's a fair-use issue (i.e. if we can only justify one use), I'd prefer to remove it from the lower section. SlimVirginTALKcontribs07:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could whoever gives the images a second once over assure themselves of compliance with WP:NFCC? That is really my concern on that front. It does contain a lot of fair use images. It may be justified, and I've been urging SV to beef up the rationales, which she has, at least here. But I'd like to see it specifically addressed by an outside person with image experience.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
David Fuchs's comments
On a non-substance side, it would be nice if all the rationales and source info was consolidated into a template like {{Non-free use rationale}}. Many reviewers (ok, I do at least) like this because it makes it much easier to see which part of the FU rationales need work and which are sufficient. Anyhoo.
Free images look fine, with appropriate info, sources, et al (I cannot however verify this OTRS ticket as I do not read Hebrew).
All the free images have rationales. The question is a) the strength of those rationales, b) if they substantially increase readers understanding and if it would be a serious detriment without them, and c) their resolution. I have issues with some of them, below:
To me, File:Jamal al durrah.jpg and File:Muhammad al-Durrah pathologist's image.JPG don't fulfill the criteria. Sure, it's nice to have pictures of the victims, but beyond the fact that they were shot and where they were shot, there's no need of a picture of their corpse. The issue I have with a lot of the images is that they appear to be used as a "see, here's what happened"-show illustration, but we should be relying on the sources themselves for that information. File:Jamal al-Durrah perspective, September 30, 2000.JPG is largely redundant with the main shots of the child and the two non-free perspective images, File:Diagram with cameraman's affidavit1.JPG and File:Diagram of junction with Schlinger report.JPG (Actually, I'm unclear on the particulars of this particular aspect of copyright law, but aren't law materials, etc. freely available? Otherwise, couldn't you replace this with a free image? Might want to bring in User:Elcobbola for this, as like I said I could be dead wrong.)
You're suggesting that we remove some of the most important images. Bear in mind that the frames from the France 2 footage were all used in evidence in the Paris Court of Appeal in 2008. They were shown to the court and described and analysed frame-by-frame, because each frame is important. It would be odd to have a comprehensive FA on the incident that excluded them. They're the source of the controversy. They are the story.
-- France 2 footage from Sept 30, 2000:
the frame that France 2 cut is the crucial frame, according to France 2's critics. It is the scene that has caused the controversy.
the last frame France 2 broadcast is important because it is where they ended the broadcast of their footage, but not where the footage itself ended.
The moment they were reportedly shot is crucial because it's the moment, though all we can see is dust, which is another reason the controversy arose.
Jamal looking to cameraman, and appearing to shout something, is important because some critics (some of those who say he was not shot by the Israelis) say he was shouting in the direction of the bullets i.e. not in the direction of the Israeli post.
Jamal waving toward the Israeli post is important because, for those who say he was shot by the Israelis, this shows he was waving to them to stop.
the image of Jamal injured is important because some people are saying he wasn't shot; France 2 distributed this image to show that he was in hospital and appeared injured.
-- Other non-free images:
the pathologist's image of the boy in the mortuary is obviously important in an article about whether he is dead; the pathologist has given the images to journalists because of the doubts that he died.
the Reuters image shows the perspective of a cameraman who was hiding with the al-Durrahs for a few minutes. This is taken from behind them. It shows the reader what they saw. Again, this is an image that was shown to the court in Paris. The importance of it is that critics say it shows two things: (a) that this wasn't such a dangerous position to be in because a cameraman was also there for part of the time, and (b) that, if the Reuters man was able to move away, so were the al-Durrahs.
you said above of File:Funeral image Muhammad al-Durrah 2.JPG and File:Schapira documentary image, possibly Muhammad al-Durrah.JPG, "We're not forensic experts, how are we supposed to know if they're the same kid or not." The point is not so that we can decide. It is twofold: first, in an article about whether a boy died, an image from his funeral is clearly relevant, and secondly, the point is to show the reader which images are causing the controversy, and which images are being compared by the sources.
Comment Unhappily, sometimes we have to sacrifice images we love to get compliance with WP:NFCC. It is tough. It frankly sucks. But we are the free encyclopedia, which means that almost everything therein shoudl be free. A FA is our best work, an exemplar of what it means to be Wikipedia. It should not heavily rely on unfree images. I will say this. The lead image (which is not free, of course) is utterly iconic and eye catching. You could have no other images in the article and it would barely matter. I could even make the argument that having too many images is distracting the reader from the first one. Note also this: Wikipedia is intended just as a starting point. With the many links in the article, the sufficiently interested reader can go on and discover other images. Having too many images is just as bad as having too much text, either way it is clutter and diminishes the impact on the reader. From my exprience (and I bet, at heart, your experience) with FAs, you know you are going to have to lose "some of the most important images". Your writing has been praised by some of the best people we have here, the images do not make or break the article, because the prose has already made it.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SV's views on which images are crucial and why
I see the following fair-use ones as crucial, in the sense that the article would be seriously undermined without them:
the lead image, because it is the best-known of all the frames (ordered to be shown to the Paris Court of Appeal), and it is neutral: he's not waving or shouting in either direction, Israeli or Palestinian—I need a neutral one for the lead.
Jamal waving toward the Israeli post, because some sources say he was signalling to his killers (ordered to be shown to the Paris Court of Appeal)
Jamal appearing to shout in the direction of the cameraman, because critics say he was shouting at his killers who were standing behind the cameraman; the cameraman says no, he was just shouting to the cameraman himself for help (ordered to be shown to the Paris Court of Appeal)
the moment of the shooting, where all we see is dust; the fact that all we see is dust is one of the reasons for the controversy (ordered to be shown to the Paris Court of Appeal)
the final frame broadcast by France 2, crucial because it is where France 2 chose to end their footage of the shooting, and announce that the boy was dead (ordered to be shown to the Paris Court of Appeal)
the scene after the final frame that was broadcast, crucial because it shows the boy was not dead when France 2 said he was; this is the frame that sparked the controversy (ordered to be shown to the Paris Court of Appeal)
And the following as important:
the boy in the morgue, important because people are saying there was no dead boy, but here he is - a dead boy (image broadcast in France and Germany)
the boy at the funeral, important because it seems to show the same boy who lay in the morgue, according to the sources (image broadcast all over the world)
Any documentary, newspaper or magazine that was producing a comprehensive account would include these images if they had space. We do have space. Our fair-use policy allows for the use of this kind of image when the story hangs on it, and it really does in this case. Add to that the fact that France 2 distributed their images free of charge, so there is no monetary issue regarding those ones, which is the key reason for the fair-use restrictions. SlimVirginTALKcontribs00:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And once again, it's not space, but the idea that we should be using free content whereever possible, and thus that means essentially discouraging nonfree content. Whether or not a copyright holder has given permission for an image to be used (not changing the license), it really isn't germane to the points above. Yes, I'm sure there are lots of important images, but we have to prioritize. My point is that most of the content above can simply be described by text. Sure, it would be great to have visual accompaniment, but we can get on by just as well. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)00:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that argument is that all images could be described using words. If we allow any fair-use images, it means we do sometimes admit that words aren't enough, and given that this article is about the France 2 images -- the whole controversy is about the images -- and they've been distributed for free by the copyright holder, published repeatedly all over the world, have been ordered to be shown in public during at least one court hearing, and have become iconic, it would be bizarre not to include them. SlimVirginTALKcontribs01:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, that the various "conclusions" drawn from seeing the man and the boy don't really come through from a still photograph. I do not think any of the man and boy are really needed except for the iconic one. It just loses something in translation from a video to a still, and I don't see that the reasons are strong enough to keep them. The one of the out of focus shot... well, it conveys just dust, which can be described in words. Jamal waving to the Israelis, well, all I see is him leaning against the barrel with his hand in the air. It's not possible from the image to see who he's waving at, he just has his hand facing the camera (which leads to interesting questions about what the cameraman was shooting :) )Then Jamal looking towards the camera, well, that really doesn't show anything, though it does allow for a caption for the cameraman to say it was "raining bullets". I think, SV, what you are trying to do is make them almost like a moving sequence, which is not a bad idea, it is just not possible in fair use. I note that the reader can readily find the original video through the references. What the current sequence does is try to be a poor-man's substitute for the video, and that's not why we have fair use.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the photographs of the boy apparently dead are only important to rebut the contentions of a tiny minority. That are the only reasons you've stated here, after all!--Wehwalt (talk) 04:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've requested an opinion from Elcobbola, who wrote the Signpost article on non-free images in FACs. I just want to leave this note for him here that the guideline I'm relying on is Wikipedia:Fair use, the "Acceptable use" section, where it says, "Images with iconic status or historical importance: As subjects of commentary." See here. SlimVirginTALKcontribs16:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Qualified support
I have read much (but not all) of the article, which in general seems excellent. I am commenting on two issues: neutrality; and non-free images.
For the information of other participants here, I read the article as an outsider who knows nothing of this incident (other than my memory of hearing the news reporting many years ago): I came away with the impression that the prevailing argument is that the incident was probably a set-up of some sort. Reading the comments above, if the WP editorial consensus is that the set-up / hoax theories are minority / fringe, then the article does not have that 'feel' to it.
Regarding the images: I have some sympathy with Wehwalt's comment that stills from the video lose a lot in the translation, and that the article may not need all of these. I particularly agree that the one showing, basically, dust at the moment of shooting can readily be conveyed in words. The 'death throes' still image really is of little help - if anything, this moment can only be conveyed effectively with a moving image, so if the video is not available, then this still can also be replaced by words (which may give a more accurate sense of the issue than does the still image). Finally, i do not think the two body and funeral stills are necessary. Again, the words of the article actually give a better explanation of their significance. The other video stills appear to me to add more value. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hamilton, I'm not sure I can do anything about the neutrality issue, because I changed a lot of the article in response to these reviews, so to change it back would risk unsettling the other supports. However, I may be able to tweak it here and there to deal with your concerns. Was there any section, any passage, any wording that added to your sense that the article was leaning too heavily in one direction? SlimVirginTALKcontribs03:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed three images: death throes, funeral, and morgue. [55] I want to keep the sequence of France 2 images if at all possible. The lead image has to be neutral. It therefore can't be the one where he's waving to the Israeli position, and it can't be the one where he's shouting toward the Palestinian position. But I would like those both to be in the sequence, because commentators on either side cite those images as, "Ha, see? He's waving and shouting toward the direction of the bullets." The shooting dust image is there because it shows the camera went out of focus: commentators have asked why etc. It's a key issue.
I've removed two more: to be neutral, I've removed the one where he seems to be waving to the Israelis, and the one where others says he was shouting to the Palestinians. [56] We are therefore left with (a) the neutral lead image, where he's neither waving nor shouting, (b) the moment of the reported shooting where the camera loses focus (this is a controversial and much-discussed frame on both sides), and (c) the last frame shown by France 2 where they declared the boy had died (also controversial and much-discussed on both sides). Plus the two diagrams. SlimVirginTALKcontribs04:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Non-free image policy is not my strong suit, so i will be interested in other comments, but i think those image removals should at least make the task of ticking this article at FA a bit easier. You have removed the ones that I thought were most readily replaced with words, apart from the moment of the reported shooting, and i understand your argument in respect of that. You ask about specific suggestions re nuetrality in the text. Unfortunately i don't have specific suggestions - i know that is of very little help - i can only report the overall effect of reading the text on my 'sense' of the balance of views. I just raised it because there seemed to be a suggestion that theories that the boy didn't die, or was shot in a set-up of some sort were fringe views. If that is so, then one certainly doesn't get that impression. But I'm afraid that is all it is, an impression. I agree that it will be very difficult to re-open this debate on a paragraph-by-paragraph basis. If the images use rationales are now in order (with the reduction in non-free image numbers), and editors overall consider the POV to be an acceptable compromise, then i would certainly support this being at FA. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Hamiltonstone. When I brought the article to FAC, it was much less inclined toward the alternative theories, but I had to change a lot of that in response to Wehwalt's and Ling.Nut's suggestions—and I believe Wehwalt feels I didn't change it enough, but I did as much as I felt I could justify. As it now stands, it shouldn't advocate for the alternative theories, or incline in their direction, but it also shouldn't undermine them. The structure was chosen carefully in that regard: the incident as initially reported (which reflects the original, mainstream "Israel did it" views) followed by a "controversy" section, which I normally don't like to have in articles, but in this case I felt it was needed to separate the views, rather than weaving them all throughout the text. So, for example, Esther Schapira, a respected, mainstream German journalist, is given her own section, rather than being used a secondary source throughout. In that way, the structure is signalling, "these are the alternative, minority views," while at the same time giving them sufficient coverage for readers to understand them. It was a difficult balancing act, and I know it's imperfect, but it was the only way to get agreement from editors and reviewers with different POVs. SlimVirginTALKcontribs05:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I thought it was neutral enought to give support to. No article is completely neutral. It's in the ballpark. I feel that there is more that can be done, but suspect the remaining rough edges will be worn off over time. Regarding the images, I said my piece, and am content that it is being checked by our best NFCC people. As that is my only remaining issue, I see no need to alter my support, either the images are OK, or you will tweak them until they are, or this nomination will not succeed because of image issues. Very simple, really--Wehwalt (talk) 09:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC).[reply]
Support. I've spent at least two hours going through this. I initially had a list of grammatical niggles that, on further contemplation, were all subjective and might trigger other complaints. So, I'm just supporting. I think it's by far the best treatment possible; I challenge anyone else to do better. It certainly won't ever satisfy everyone, but we've got to have some path for controversial topics to become featured without getting mucked up in what sometimes amounts to personal opinion. Oh, someone broke note 150 by using a refname that isn't defined. --Andy Walsh(talk)01:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm not sure how long a FAC remains open, but I don't think this article can be promoted as long as there are still disputes on the article talk page, which seems to be the case at the moment. Also, I have one or two concerns about this article myself. I haven't much time to respond here right now, so I will try to detail my concerns tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 19:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how that's a useful criterion to try upholding. There are articles that will always have disputes—should they never be featured? Again, we need some path for controversial topics to become featured. --Andy Walsh(talk)19:25, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if I'm not mistaken, a minimum requirement even for a GA is that the article be stable, which can really only occur when there is general consensus that the article meets basic policy. There is currently at least one NPOV dispute on the article's talk page, raised by one or more users in good standing, and as a matter of principle I don't think an article should be promoted until such disputes are resolved. Other than that, as I said I have one or two issues of my own I would like to raise, but I can't really comment until I have more time to do so tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 19:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Closing notes
There are no {{convert}}s on distances; these should be added. There is a severe WP:NBSP problem with times and words like "France 2" wrapping (a global replace in a word processer should be able to catch them all). I'm not thrilled with how readers are bounced about in the text with "see here" or "see below", but unsure how to fix that ... any ideas? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:46, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy, I did that deliberately. If I were writing this article on my own (i.e. where other views weren't an issue), I'd weave the controversy throughout the text. That's how I normally write articles, as far as possible. But here, the problem is that the controversy material outweighs the original mainstream view, just in terms of volume. So to weave it throughout the text would overwhelm the original view. The way I got round this was to maintain an article structure of "Incident as initially reported," where you basically get the October 2000 view of things, followed by Controversy, which is where you see how the story developed.
However, I had to solve the problem of giving either view too much weight in its own section. I therefore offer the reader links so she can dart back and forth as needed. So there is lots of "In 2000, X said Y, but see below," with a link to the section where Y later says X was lying. It was the only way I could make sure both "sides" had breathing space in their own sections, but didn't have the last word in those sections.
Yes, it looks hard to avoid in this case (just want to go on record for other cases, where it usually can be avoided and is an indication of poor organization-- feel free to remove my inlines). The NBSPs can be added by copying all the text into a word processer; ping me or Dabomb87 if you need help later. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can help out with NBSP type stuff too if needed -- looks like it might be taken care of, but feel free to let me know if you have questions. -Pete (talk) 00:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because the article is about the last highway in my hometown that isn't already an FA. I feel that the article has been ready for a while, but now I'm ready to nominate it. Even if it doesn't pass, the article will be improved by the suggestions and comments generated at this forum. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Only one major issue, the rest minor -
**Reference 18 - 1940-Present. - present should be lowercase
Reference 9 is dead.
1.2 - Here traffic along the highway can view the towers of the Cliffs Shaft Mine Museum. The museum is dedicated to telling the story of underground iron ore mining in the region. - combine sentences
running next to the Negaunee City Hall.[4] City hall was built in 1914–15 at a time when the city's population was increasing and iron production was peaking. - combine sentences
It seems odd to me that you describe AADT when there's a link to the article describing it right there.
History (the major issue)- Most of the information comes from maps. Are there no news articles / other types of sources available?
From this point on, BUS M-28 has run solo its entire length. - run solo? Sounds weird.
Ref 18 follows the format given by the source. I can change it easy enough.
Since Ref 9 only verifies the once sentence there, I've contacted a friend who is the high school librarian for assistance at finding a newspaper clipping to replace it. School will start soon, so I should have a replacement source for the opening of the new high school, and its history shortly.
I see no reason not to give a simple explanation in the article rather than force a reader to click a link.
Of the 3 paragraphs of the history, 2 of them are sourced to non-maps. The ROW files are technically called maps, but they are referenced here for the dates of land acquisition for the M-35 location, much akin to the jurisdictional transfers involved with the 1999 relocation in Ishpeming. I don't see the issue here.
Comments - I have a few concerns before I can support this for FA:
The lead of the article appears to be short. Can a little bit of additional information be added?
In the Traffic counts section, is it necessary to have a sentence defining what AADT is? The AADT article takes care of this need.
"MDOT quotes 6,300 vehicles passing through in 2006" sounds awkward.
Remove the "to" banners in the Major intersections table.
Throughout the article, there are areas that need commas added to separate clauses, such as after "here" in the sentence 'Here traffic along the highway can view the towers of the Cliffs Shaft Mine Museum; the museum is dedicated to telling the story of underground iron ore mining in the region." ---Dough487222:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Replies
I will work on this after I take a break this evening for some company to visit. It shouldn't take long.
As I explained above, there's no reason the section can't explain what AADT is instead of forcing a reader to click a link. I'd agree if the explanation given were longer than a single sentence, but in this case, that sentences gives the reader context without forcing him to divert into another article for the explanation. Other recent FAs provide a explanation of what this term means, which is good for the non-roadgeek reader. What we as roadgeeks assume is common knowledge isn't always.
Changed.
I placed the to banners in the list because there is a photo showing them in use. IMHO, it would be strange and inconsistent to have a photograph showing them in use and graphics in a table that omit them.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (As a side note, great to see the Hunt's Guide to the UP being used as a source! It's a great book.) Ealdgyth - Talk15:55, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I found that it was deadlinked when I nominated the article... I noted above though that I'm working on finding a replacement dead tree source now that the school district is back in session this week. Imzadi1979 (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The school district redesigned their website at some point, and I've found the new URL for the page that replaced the one in the original reference. The article has been updated accordingly. Imzadi1979 (talk) 15:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The images in the table in M-28_Business (Ishpeming–Negaunee, Michigan)#Major intersections need to be linked to satisfy attribution requirements. This is assuming they are not in the public domain, which they probably are. Still, if you could link them please, at least at this FAC?
File:Michigan 28 Business (Ishpeming) map.png probably ought to have a source for what this map was based off of. Otherwise, I would think it would be considered original research.
I am nominating this for featured article because I want to bring this article to the next level. I believe it may meet the featured article criteria. Please let me know how to improve. Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: all photos are from the Bundesarchiv; as far as Commons is concerned, these images are CC-licensed for free use. The Nazi flag and Luftwaffe insignia are in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 02:36, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsConditional support:
"To be considered an ace, a pilot must be credited with shooting down five or more enemy aircraft during aerial combat; Lent shot down 110 aircraft, 103 of them at night."
The explanation of "ace" seems a bit jarring here. I suggest changing the two sentences to "Lent shot down 110 aircraft, 103 of them at night, more than the target of five enemy aircraft required for the title of ace."
I am not enamoured with the Summary of career section. Most (if not all) of its content has been expressed in prose in the article. I fail to see why there is a need for References in the Wehrmachtbericht sub-section either.
The main reason for breaking out the references in the Wehrmachtbericht is that I want to give the reader an easy overview and secondly because they are my personal translation of the original German text. Further the style I used here is copied from two other featured articles Heinrich Bär and Werner Mölders. I'd like to see how others feel about this MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A one-sentence Legacy section does not look good. Integrate the sentence into the Death sub-section. The same goes for the circumstances that surround Lent's medals in the Awards sub-section.
(Add-on) The article is mostly based on the Hinchliffe source, and I wonder if the heavy emphasis might lead to a loss of certain aspects of the man. Williamson's Knight's Cross with Diamonds Recipients mentions that Lent "initially hated night flying and had to be persuaded against a transfer back to day fighters." This is interesting, yet the article does not speak of Lent's attitude to his work. Was it missed or was Williamson wrong? Spick seems to have expounded on Lent's attitude in Aces of the Reich. It also seems that Lent would have a friendly rival in night fighter kills in the form of Schnauffer (a former subordinate of Lent's), according to Constable and Toliver's Horrido!: Fighter aces of the Luftwaffe. It seems the article falls a bit short of comprehensiveness here. Jappalang (talk) 00:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good point! This is an omission on my part. Peter Hinchliffe is the best and most thorough source I have come across. I added a paragraph indicating his initial reluctance to become a night fighter. Most other sources have condensed the information to the point of making it "untruthful". I therefore can only advise to follow Hinchliffe's reference. MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What about the "rivalry" between Schnauffer and Lent? Lent is supposed to be Nazi Germany's second highest-ranked night fighter pilot in terms of kills (behind Schnauffer). Is that notable to be of mention? If Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer is the world's top-scoring night fighter pilot (according to his article), does that not make Lent the second? Jappalang (talk) 00:21, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From what I read I wouldn't say that his ambition as a fighter pilot distinguished itself from that of others. The rivalry between Lent and Schnaufer, at least to my interpretation of the sources, does not excel to the point that I would want to mention it here. There were others, Sayn-Wittgenstein for instance, who were driven or even obsessed by the idea to be top scoring fighter pilot. But this is something to be addressed in his article not Lent's. MisterBee1966 (talk) 01:16, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I was driving at the point that Lent's achievement is his status as the second highest ranking night fighter pilot (global or Germany only?). It seems a notable achievement (whether he wanted it or not), but is not mentioned in the article. If he and Schnauffer had a well-reported rivalry, it would flesh out more, but that does not seem the case now. Jappalang (talk) 02:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the the first of the sentences added might be redundant, and tweaked accordingly.[59] You might want to check my tweak and rewrite or revert it. Whether it requires the Williamson cite should also be checked. Note that if there are reliable sources who proclaim Lent as the "second highest scoring" night ace, then it should be made explicit in the article because right now, the article does not state if Lent is second, third, or fourth in such rankings. Jappalang (talk) 00:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I feel Summary section is superfluous, and without in-depth knowledge of the subject, I am not certain if all sources have been covered. However, the current article is very comprehensive for a WWII pilot who died then, and I feel any other sources of information would likely not add so much that the current article can be thought of as failing WP:WIAFA 1b. So unless a substantial number opposes the Summary section with reason, my support is behind this article. Jappalang (talk) 00:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I should qualify my support by mentioning that I contributed as a copy editor to this article, but not to its content. There may be an occasional prose hiccup, but there shouldn't be much. That said, I have a couple of comments to make:
first, I appreciated the editor's effort to maintain a fair and balanced pov throughout the article (and indeed, through the article's creation).
second, unlike one of the other reviewers (above), I liked the inclusion of the Wehrmachts Bericht section separate from the text. Yes, indeed, it could have been incorporated directly into the article, regardless of the fact that it is B's translation, and not a published one. But in other articles he has edited he has used the same format, so, for consistency's sake on this project, I think it belongs separately and, perhaps more importantly, it is primary source material, included separately to enhance the article.
third, Hinchcliffe, as a dominant source, seemed fair to me. A lot of articles rely on one or two sources as their "primary" (main) secondary source, especially when that source is the "go-to" source for the subject.
I think that the article is very well written, but I have a few concerns before I support. Additionally below are the things I did to check the article.
Lede -
Well written
seems to be the proper length
does a good job of summerizing the article
Concern - It is typically frowned upon to have references in the lede. It appears that most of the references in the lede are also detailed later in the article so I would recommend removing them.
AWB Edits
I ran the article through AWB and didn't find anything significant there.
DAB links
There are no disambiguous links
Alt text
Alt text looks good, although a couple are rather long.
External links
There doesn't seem to be any significant problems here
Dates
The dates throughout the article appear consistent using the Day Month Year format.
Concern - The dates in the References in the Wehrmachtbericht table under the summery of career section appear on more than one row. I would recommend using the DTS template to fix this allowing the entire date to be on one row.
This section is were you lost me. I think this whole section needs to be cleanup up. The article otherwise is very well written but this section really pulls it down for me.
I changed my Comment to a weak support based on the evidence you proveded with the previously approved articles. I still do not like the layout of the Career section however and think that it should be cleaned up regardless of how the other articles appear. Basically I think that an article of this status shouldn't have what amounts to a series of bullets and should be rewritten to be in a more prose format. This also brings up an issue for me that has been a contentious topic to many and that is how to display military ribbons and badges. To me having a bunch of bullets doesn't provide the same information as a graphical display such as the one on Smedley Butler. Since some do not like the graphical display I think we should provide some kind of prose wording to better inform the reader about the information related to these military decorations. I served in the U.S. military and am knowledgable on that but I couldn't tell you a thing about these german ones. For example, what do the extra devices on the Cross for Swords and diamonds look like, are these ribbons displayed in order of how they would be displayed on the uniform or are they in chronological order, are they authorized to be worn as ribbons or are they medals only (which is a practice used by some militaries) when were they recieved, who gave it to him, are there any citations that can be added stating what he recieved them for (such as the Smedley Butler article (and I know that it is not quite to FA status yet either). Basically I just think that there is other information that can be provided to allow for a more readible and professional looking layout of the sectiom. Even if a graphical display is not used (which I personally think is a better but not everyone does). I hope this helps and good luck on getting it passed. --Kumioko (talk) 14:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but I would suggest scrapping the promotions section since it serves no real purpose for the article. Otherwise, ti does appear that everything is in order for the FA star. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It needs to be changed; I can't quite articulate it, but it's not correct English.
Here's some more: Lent flew a further mission on 3 September and another on 4 September. At this point of the campaign, when the Polish Air Force was all but defeated, that the tactical use of Bf 110s switched from bomber escort to ground-attack.
For his actions in the Polish campaign Lent was awarded one of the first Iron Cross 2nd class on 21 September 1939 of World War II. Wouldn't it read better if the date was given after the bit about one of the first EKIIs of WW2?
Helmut Lent was ordered to intercept and engage the attacking bomber force and after refuelling—Lent had just landed at Jever from an armed patrol—claimed three more Wellingtons When did he shoot down the first ones?
There's a severe problem here with missing WP:NBSPs, causing many of the words and terms to wrap on my screen: please fix, I left samples. Also, it would be good if the article could try to stick to one convention on translations: some use the German word with English translation in English, others use the English word with translation in German, and others have no translation. These won't hold up promotion, but I hope they will be addressed soon, and not repeate on MilHist articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:28, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I am nominating this for featured article because three different copy-edits have been done since previous nomination (by myself, Airplaneman, and ATC), and I feel everything is up to FA standards. Ωphois16:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, leaning support: A nicely written, comprehensive article. Nice work. The Flash{talk}18:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)There's still some continuing issues from the last FAC that I brought up that need to be fixed:[reply]
In the lead, the info about the change to The CW could be improved a bit. Explain how it used to be on the WB.
Changed to: 'It was the first season to air on the CW television network, a joint venture of The WB and UPN; the previous was broadcast on The WB." Ωphois18:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the description for "Playthings," move the actress who plays Maggie up to after the character's first mention
"and attempt to discover what the demon's plan is for Sam and other psychic children like him." - Maybe "and attempt to discover the demon's plan for Sam and other psychic children like him."
The word "season" is used 3, 3, and 2 times in the fist three paragraphs. A bit too much. "Casting" is 3, 6, 2. "Writing" uses the word a ton early on. "Reception" is 4, 8, 1. "DVD Release" has 7 of them.
I'll work on the production and reception section. I managed to remove one from the lead, but their is no other word I know of that is synonymous with "season", so I can't think of any other way of phrasing it in the lead. Ωphois20:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Same with the other sections. "Season" is mainly used as an adjective, so I don't know of any other way of having it. Ωphois20:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"It averaged about 3.14 million American viewers, and was in danger of being canceled." - This isn't clear to me. Was it going to be not renewed? Canceled half way through?
"While both the brotherly chemistry between the lead actors and the decision to finish the main storyline at the season's end were praised, the formulaic structure of the episodes was criticized." - Was this by the critics? If so, say that. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"In exchange for saving Dean's life, he will give up his own life, his immortal soul, and the mystical Colt." - Might be good to say what the mystical Colt is.
"As the genius Ash (Chad Lindberg) attempts to analyze John's research on Azazel with his computer" - Maybe "As the bar's resident genius Ash (Chad Lindberg) attempts to analyze John's research on Azazel with his computer"
"He then visits Jo at her job and begins sadistically toying with her head," - Sounds like her head is not attached to her body. Maybe "playing mind games" or something.
"Sam shoots Dean and flees to Bobby." - "flees to Bobby's" maybe. Also, should say who Bobby is, since it's the first mention. (Who Bobby is is in the next episode)
"and Bobby learns that the demon used a binding ritual to bind itself into Sam's body" - "and Bobby learns that the demon used a binding ritual to bind itself to Sam's body"
Would a wikilink work? Meg herself is just a shell until the fourth season, so explaining who she is wouldn't really work IMO. Ωphois22:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added in the first instance that salt is a deterrent of ghosts, so I think that also covers the "salt and burn" instances since they involve ghosts. Ωphois22:14, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ADR (Automated dialogue replacement) should be fully spelled out, I think.
It is hard to find another word for "season". Sometimes you can use "it". "When production of the second season started, Kripke wanted to avoid the monster-of-the-week formula used in the first season." could use "the previous year" for the second instance. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 21:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"but decided against it because he did not have knowledge of production details." - Maybe "but decided against it because he did not have production knowledge."
"the writers would have to devise a way for Sam and Dean to escape in the end." - "the writers had to devise a way for Sam and Dean to escape in the end."?
File:Werewolf3.jpg: fails WP:NFCC #1 and 8; text perfectly serves to describe the differences (more like a vampire than traditional werewolves, eyes change color and fangs grow out of teeth, or such). Werewolf mention also seems a bit light (primary source intent, one secondary source comment)
File:Croatoan.jpg: source, author, date of first publishing (and/or creation) required to verify if this image's declared license is true
File:Supernatural S2 DVD.jpg: "To illustrate a DVD release of the full season discussed, and identify the season in the article." is a bit weak. Suggest buffing up the rationale on why the DVD cover is a good fair-use image on critical grounds.
I'm fine with getting rid of the werewolf image, and I'm working on the Croatoan image. The most I can find right now is that Corbis-Bettmann appears to have it in its archives.
DVD cover's FUR has been refined, Croatoan.jpg and Werewolf3.jpg were removed. Latest image (of Amber Benson) is appropriately licensed. Withdrawing image opposition. Jappalang (talk) 12:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now by Karanacs. Overall, I found this an engaging and well-written article, but there were some areas that I got completely bogged down in. I've never seen this show, and I haven't read anything else about it. The article body opens with the episode list, and I was totally confused. I highly recommend a background or overview section that would summarize the first season very briefly.
You're the expert on the series - I still haven't read the article for Season 1, so I don't know what other connections I might be missing. Karanacs (talk) 19:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The only first season things that would affect the Episodes section are the mother's death, Azazel, the Colt, the psychic children, and the car wreck. I've elaborated on the first four, so I think adding a little bit about the wreck will cover it. Ωphois19:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The first episode mentions lots of characters, but doesn't tell me who they are. Nowhere does it mention that John is Sam's father - this can only be found in an easter egg link in the lead (or, as I see now, later in the episode list - but by then I'm already confused). Who (or what) is Azazel?
Subsequent episode descriptions have a lot of links (very good), but I would have to click each of them to figure out what is going on (a Rakshasa?...isn't an Impala a car...can't we just say on the car?)
What significance do dead plants over a grave have? (ep 26)...The first sentence doesn't seem to me to provide much useful information at all.
"although the man still ends up killing himself" - which man? the intended murder victim or the guy who originally intended to commit suicide?
It says "the man still ends up killing himself". It was to be a murder-suicide. They stopped the murder, but not the suicide. Ωphois19:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Why do they want to track down someone whose mother died in a similar manner?
"Ash reveals that Ansem's adoptive mother did not die when he was an infant, meaning not every psychic child follows a traceable pattern" - huh? there's a pattern? who else did this happen to?
is this trying to say that Ansen is the one convincing people to commit suicide and Andy didn't have anything to do with it?
Yes. Changed sentence to: "However, Sam has another vision of a woman's suicide, and it comes to pass while they are talking to Andy, exonerating him." Ωphois19:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ep 29
"Dean's previous record coming back to haunt him. " - what did he do?
" Despite this, his findings helps the brothers to realize " -- despite what? I think the article means..."The brothers instead realize that a shapeshifter..."
I'm not happy with the writing section. At times it reads like a big list of "this episode did this, and that episode did that, and the next episode did...". This leads to paragraphs that seem to jam several different ideas together, breaking up the flow. Is there a way to draw out any of the larger themes as topic sentences and restructure the section so that a paragraph has a particular broader topic, which may discuss several episodes that involved that topic? If you keep the current episode-centric structure, I recommend that you split some of the larger paragraphs so that we have a single paragraph about each episode.
They already are broken up into different themes: previously unused ideas, simple concepts, influences by popular culture, and deviations in the writing process. Ωphois18:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any way to construct an overall themes section for the article? Generally, a lot can be found analyzing popular science fiction shows. Is this one popular enough to have generated anything looking at what is going on in this season? Themes of family, or ....??
I was able find an interview in which he says the psychic children were another main storyline, so I added it to the first paragraph. Ωphois19:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. Excellent work on making the episode list more accessible! I was interested enough to read the summaries of the other seasons and may actually start watching this now. I unfortunately don't have the time to review the Writing section right now, but I would not have opposed on that basis alone. Karanacs (talk) 20:33, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't realize until now that the site isn't run by Mozilla. I've found a review with a similar statement, so I'll remove the Firefox links later today. Ωphois16:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can probably just remove the ref, as it merely cites that the series was renewed (which the existence of the third season proves). Ωphois16:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was quite flabbergasted when I saw this being doubted, as it's BuddyTV (the fact that it has an article automatically asserts notability and even reliability, as there are sources cited in the article). I've struck it as I believe it's reliable; Ophois's links clearly cite them as reliable and it's been used in an assortment of other FAs, particuarlly every Lost FA. The Flash{talk}01:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And the Washington Post references a news release here. Since they refer to the Futon Critic rather than the news release itself, to me that shows that the Washington Post finds it a reliable source. Ωphois22:11, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not impressed with some of these pop articles that come at FAC with sources like these. Do people know that trade publications (or even a basic Google Archive search) exist?
A lot of information is not available in trade publications, though I have found some in magazines. As for Google Archive, that is actually how I found a lot of the sources used (including the sources you questioned above). Ωphois23:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are two methods of citing authors' names. Pick one and stick to it.
The refs need a bit of work. Print publications (newspapers, magazines, etc.) are italicized; I saw a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ref and Chicago Tribune ref that needed this done, but please check throughout.Dabomb87 (talk) 19:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"to discover the demon's plan for Sam and other psychic children—young adults who were visited by Azazel as infants and given abilities, often having their mother then die in a fire—like him." Erk. Can the last two words be before the first dash?
It has already been copy-edited by two other people. Mostly everything you've listed are minor or nit-picks, so another copy-edit isn't really needed. I'll take care of the other ones either tonight or tomorrow. Ωphois23:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't give a dump how many times it's been copy-edited. It needs more, preferably by someone who is unfamiliar with the text. Throughout. Tony(talk)12:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of your concerns pertain to the lead, which is a summary of the entire article and thus would be the place for issues like those because it's summarizing a lot of plot detail into a few sentences. It would take me a couple of minutes to look through the rest for overlinking, so I think I can fix any other issues. Ωphois18:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"are taken to a hospital in Memphis following a car wreck"—sounds as though they follow the wreck to the hospital. "following a car accident"?
I don't see how that changes anything other than the context of what happened. I think wreck is more appropriate, as the car was totaled. To me, "accident" seems minor. Ωphois03:08, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"make it out of the crash with only minor injuries, a dying Dean (Ackles) is in a coma"—probably drop "only". Comma before "who".
"Dean later takes out his anger over his father's death on"—probably drop the temporal tags such as "later" and "then" when it's clearly a narrative. (There are other instances, too.) "anger at" is more usual.
"and reveals that he has had trouble coping with the guilt he feels over their father's death". I'd remove "that" and consider "with his guilt over ...". I've withdrawn my strong oppose, but I believe this is not an example of WP's best work. Tony(talk)02:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it fully meets the criteria for an FA. Almost all sources are offline, media resources, so I doubt there are any questions on reliability, and it has undergone a copyedit, so the prose should be coherent. The production section might be seemed as lacking, as there are only two paragraphs, but I assure you it is all the info available, and should be acceptable. Note that I have another FAC opened for Dan Povenmire, so please alert me if I need to hold off on this FAC until that one closes.The Flash{talk}17:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of Klasky-Csupo, though, why are they used in the "work" parameter of the flash ref? They're a publisher, not a book or journal title. Same with Viacom and Knight-Ridder, and the inverse for The New Yorker (which is definitely a work title). Check for these problems throughout.
Are you sure Knight Ridder is a newspaper and not a newspaper company? Knight Ridder does not list a newspaper with that name, and I've yet to find a Web page or any source online that even mentions a paper by that name. I want evidence (a cover scan, third-party source, etc.) because I smell fish. --anoddname21:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, correct you are. The source I was reading this from put it as "Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service," which I did not realize then simply meant it was the Tribune News Service, as published by Knight Ridder. Fixed. :) The Flash{talk}23:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Except that's not a newspaper either, just a company. What is the "source [you were] reading this from" anyway? If it's really reliable, I see nothing to hide, and if you can't find it outside of some quote on a fan site you want to keep secret, remove it. --anoddname17:21, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's called Encyclopedia.com, which collects samples from thousands of newspapers and other publications from across the nation. Like LexisNexis, but free. I've changed it to publisher. The Flash{talk}20:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support (Again, asked to check.) The few full web links check out, and nothing else seems weird about it, so I might as well. A few more things:
I would add the links to the refs' Encyclopedia.com pages—if not for verification, then at least to say where I saw them or to say "these sources do exist and here's the place I got them". Though if you think that would just be advertising or spam then whatever.
I don't really think it would be spam or anything, but a lot of the reception bits are things that I've read from the search results that show bits and pieces of the article, not the actual article—while it shows the article for a few paragraphs, you need a free membership (which I don't have) to view the whole thing. Like I said: LexisNexis but free. The Flash{talk}15:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
" TV Guide later wrote that "Nickelodeon's Rugrats secured its place in television history" with the episode, voiding that it could "entertain a child of any religious denomination" "—I'm not sure I've ever seen that word used to mean "noting" or "saying". Not that I'm a frequent English reader or such.
"Unlike Hecht's initial response, Nickelodeon agreed with the claims and apologized, promising never to run the character nor the strip again."—maybe change to "Unlike Hecht, Nickelodeon's new president Herb Scannell agreed with the claims and apologized, promising never to run the character nor the strip again.", since "Hecht's initial response" and "Nickelodeon" don't seem comparable. Perhaps "new" is not the right word; tweak to taste.
Unfortunate repetition of information right at the top: "is a special season-four episode of the animated television series Rugrats. It is the first episode of the show's fourth season".
1996 link looks like a useless plain year link. Why not make it black and put the explicit, unpiped link in the "See also" section? Readers are more likely to click on it there.
I'd never realised that citation numbers would slip down to the following line if you caught them with just the wrong window size (= column width). That's what I did, unwittingly. This is a Bugzilla report in the making, since it shouldn't happen, don't you agree? Not an FAC issue. Sandy, does it worry you?
Fourth season rep is fixed; thanks. I removed the television series link, the middle of three adjacent blue items. WP:LINK says to try to avoid it, and let's face it, TV series is hardly something that needs explanation. Tony(talk)10:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave this for editors to decide for themselves. For the record, I lean slightly reliable. But the first two references merely mention what users of DVD Talk and its community do and think. The last reference is the only one to cite its review content. RB88 (T) 01:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I really cannot fathom why you doubt it's relability, and strongly urge you to change your mind. If you read it's article, you'll see dozens of reasons why it's totally reliability. Nothing in it is written by users. Give me one good reason why a site which is cited in news outlets (Indie Wire it totally a reliable sort, as are the other two which mention it is a credible place for DVD reviews) and is founded by a published author and journalist is unreliable. Again, it is not even close to being a "community website" and I am—truthfully—quite surprised that you doubt it (both here and all other FACs I've seen you reviewed and doubt it). Once more, please reconsider. The Flash{talk}01:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've rephrased my statement above after more research. I still think editors need to decide for themselves. Also, don't use bold lettering in normal statements as it may confuse the FAC leaders when they check for comments, supports, and objects. Good luck with the rest of the nomination and I'm always here for source checks when you're writing other articles. Just drop a line. RB88 (T) 01:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
References need uniformity, be that with date conventions, order of information, or bits of info. As I said, if you can't find the locations for all, then remove the ones you have cited already. RB88 (T) 00:20, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Repetition of "on" in the first sentence of the last paragraph; I suggest "Nickelodeon originally broadcast the episode on December 4, 1996" or something similar
The article does great justice to the show; I'll happily support when these issues are fixed. By any chance, is "A Rugrats Passover" next? Cheers, Mm40 (talk) 03:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure if the Passover special is ready just yet, but after some cleanup and maybe some better sources I'll probably hitch her up for FAC. :) The Flash{talk}17:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If it does show up here, you can be sure the see my review. I've replied to you a couple of times above. Thanks for your work, Mm40 (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If possible, could you expand the controversy section?
Sorry, but that's all the information available; there is the official press statement, but it itself isn't much more then what the section already says, plus it's focused on the 1998 controversy. The Flash{talk}01:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Ok, this subject area is completely outside my normal purview, but I'll give it a try. You have here the perspective of someone who's never seen the show, and barely knows what the Rugrats are. As such, I will mostly be evaluating prose. Sasata (talk) 04:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"and referred to alternatively as "Rugrats Chanukah Special," missing "the", no?
"Upon arrival they discover that there is only enough olive oil" Confused here, who is arriving where? Does "they" refer to the Maccabees or the Rugrats?
The Maccabees. I'm unsure how its confusing, there's only a mention of the Rugrats once in the para. and following that it just mentions Judah and the Maccabees.... The Flash{talk}16:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Remember, I haven't seen the show. The paragraph starts out by saying the rugrats pretend they are the story's characters. The next three sentences talk about the adventures of Judah and his army, and I presume from the second sentence that Judah is Tommy. So when I get to the fifth sentence which says "Upon their arrival they discover" I just not sure if the "they" means the rugrats, the Maccabees, or the Rugrats pretending they are Maccabees. Sasata (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unsure if I can make it clearer in the summary, but here's a bit of an explanation: as with several television programs, this episodes features someone telling a story. The story is shown, and—for both representation and comedic purposes—the main characters' appearances are used to represent the characters featured. Therefore, "they" is referring to to Maccabees, whose appearance is based on that of the main characters. Does that clarify it? The Flash{talk}17:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It does when you explain it, but it's still not quite clear from just reading the text. I'll chalk it up to my own neurological dysfunctions and strike the issue. Sasata (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The Pickles family fears…" This is the first mention of the Pickles family… who are they?
"Paul Germain, co-creator of Rugrats, responded by suggesting a Passover special instead, describing it as a "funny idea"[3] and was considered to be of "historical interest." Does not parse, verb tenses not in agreement
If I do that it'll be even more ridged and read "Paul Germain, co-creator of Rugrats, responded with the concept of a Passover special instead, as a 'funny idea'" The Flash{talk}19:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"In 1996, the crew successfully produced the Passover special" Is this "crew" the writer/director combo mentioned in the lead? Also, what was successful about their production? Is it possible to unsuccessfully produce a tv show?
And, no, its the crew that it clearly mentions just a few sentences above... And they successfully produced it, I'm not entirely sure how much clearer it can get. Actually, yes, it is possible to "unsuccessfully produce a tv show;" production faults could lead to the idea being scraped all together midproduction, something which has occurred several times throughout television history. The Flash{talk}16:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok the problem is then, the "crew" is mentioned in the second sentence of the second paragraph of the lead, but I have no idea who they are. Is crew short for production crew? Sasata (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Depending on the width of your browser, the sentence might read like so: "J. David Stem and David N." (line break) "Weiss collaborated to write the script..." See what I mean? Sasata (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Leave out the initial, put non-breaking spaces between the initials, or use a {{nowrap}} template around the name. It's not really a big deal though, just tweaking. Sasata (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have read through your summaries, and, as you noted, they are all minor. You only note that you think it needs reviewing, so if you believe so, it would be best if you point them out. As above, consensus is leading to a support, but if you believe there are concerns that need fixing for it to pass its FAC, please state so and perhaps directly state which bits need to be fixed. The Flash{talk}00:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reviewers aren't expected to list every problem. Anyway, here are a few things:
"the episode and others featuring Grandpa Boris and his wife Minka also attracted controversy" "also" is unnecessary here.
"The babies listen and pretend that they are the story's characters." "pretend" is vague here. Did they actually enact the story themselves or just imagine themselves in it?
"The Pickles, a functional, American family, fears that Boris's bitter" Basic subject-verb agreement problem here.
Can you cite a source or Wikipedia guideline for this? You may be right, but it's impossible to tell by looking at existing FA articles for this. For example, from "Confirmed Dead": "The episode received a 6.5/16 in the key adults 18–49 demographic." Another, from "No Such Thing as Vampires": ""No Such Thing as Vampires" finished first among total viewers and adults 18–49 for its night." Dabomb87 (talk) 02:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"himself Jewish, professed himself dumbfounded by the criticism" "himself ... himself" repetition is jarring.
"by the character reciting" --> "by the character's reciting" or "by the character's recitation of"
I didn't read closely enough to decide whether this is FA level; these are issues I saw on a quick skim. However, quite a few of the issues I saw above demonstrate that the article has not quite attained the level of polish that FAs are expected to have. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, 1a. I just looked at the Release and reception section and found a surprising number of problems for something that's been listed for so long. The scope of the issues suggests a thorough, independent copyedit (meaning, someone new to the text) is needed, with an eye toward details, MoS, repetition in prose, and plain errors. It appears to be a good way off the mark. Examples follow:
"Multiple repeats of the episode continue to air" Is a multiple repeat more than a repeat? Simpler yet, "The episode continued to air"
Quite a bit of repetition in the text. For example, consecutively: "TV Guide later wrote that", "Ted Cox ... commented that", "DVD Talk reviewer Francis Rizzo III wrote that", "Michael Atkinson and Laurel Shifrin wrote ... that"
"'A Rugrats Chanukah', along with other Rugrats episodes which featured Boris and his wife Minka as characters" What is the phrase "as characters" telling us that's not already told? If you insist, why not "which featured characters Boris and his wife Minka"?
"Nickelodeon's then-president" To my eyes, it's quite ugly to have the apostrophe-s unlinked and the rest of it linked. Nickelodeon is thrice-linked; why?
Is there a reason for the single subheading under the Reception section? It's better practice to have two or more subheadings where we use them, unless there is a compelling reason to have one. I don't see how the content in that section warrants its own heading.
The article has already undergone a thorough copyedit from an independent copyeditor, so I'm not sure how more of the same thing will fix it. The Flash{talk}01:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure who you're referring to, but if we're still finding basic problems, I would say the copyedit was not sufficient and you need to get someone else. --Andy Walsh(talk)02:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Problem there is CEG might as well be dead—backlog goes back almost to 2008 on their request page, and I do not know anyone else who would be able to copyedit. Do you have any recommendations? And I was referring to your comments, lol. The Flash{talk}03:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was asking what copyeditor you are referring to. As to who: I would look for interested parties in your subject area. Fish for expert editors in the television and television-show projects. There are plenty of them who have brought TV articles up to FA status. Thanks! --Andy Walsh(talk)05:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Caveat: I didn't have a lot of time, but I think the more obvious stuff has been caught, enough that anything remaining should be minor enough to be easily cleaned up. SteveT • C22:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Struck oppose, from SteveT • C I'm sorry, but reading the lead alone revealed several problems straight away with the prose, and one factual error:
The alt text for the infobox image was ungrammatical and contained irrelevant details, such as colours (alt text is primarily aimed at those who cannot see).
"A Rugrats Chanukah", titled onscreen as simply "Chanukah" and referred to alternatively as the "Rugrats Chanukah Special"—unnecessarily wordy for an opening sentence. The "simply" is editor commentary and can go (don't tell your readers what to think) and "referred to alternatively as" can be rendered more concisely as "sometimes called", don't you think?
It's OK, I got rid of that one; I'm unsure that television special needs a link, but it's borderline and won't lose any sleep if it's kept. :-) SteveT • C
The plot description: "The plot involves a visit by the Rugrats, accompanied by Grandpa Boris, to a synagogue. While there, they ..."—again, wordy, not snappy, a bit twisty. Just removing a few words and a couple of commas makes it flow better and doesn't change any of the intended meaning.
My amendment reads, "Its plot tells of a visit by the Rugrats and Grandpa Boris to a synagogue, where they ..."—this conveys the same information in a lot less space. SteveT • C
At this stage, after this long at FAC, a basic fact such as the production and air date of the Passover special should not be wrong. A glance at the article history reveals it's always been this way; all the sources (save the IMDb) say that episode was produced and broadcast in 1995. This was easily spotted, too, as the timeline in the context of the Chanukah special's production didn't ring true.
Thanks for fixing it, but please be aware it was a simple mistake. I did not spot it, but it was merely a minor typo of sorts and (IMHO) isn't particularly a huge factual error. The Flash{talk}02:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Accepted, though you should make sure it doesn't appear anywhere in the article body too. SteveT • C
"The idea of making a Rugrats Chanukah special was pitched to the production crew in 1992"—pitched by whom? The question is immediately begged, more so in this case because it's a production crew (the director or writers, etc.) who usually do the pitching. Switching to active voice ("Nickelodeon executives pitched the idea of a Rugrats Chanukah special to the production crew in 1992") immediately improves how it reads as well as giving the reader information they didn't have before, all in the exact same number of words.
I eliminated them, but take it as an example of what could be looked at in the rest of the text; have you ever looked at Tony1's guide? I owe almost all the improvements to my own writing over the last couple of years to that document. SteveT • C
"completing it soon afterwards"—one I haven't changed, as I couldn't work out what to change it to. It doesn't really tell us anything. It's the equivalent of a story that begins, "They set off for the castle; when they got there ..." Nothing is told to us about the journey. Of course they completed it "soon afterwards", else there wouldn't be an episode. :-)
"Nickelodeon originally broadcast "A Rugrats Chanukah" on December 4, 1996, receiving a Nielsen Rating of 7.9"—while an argument could be made that the network gets the rating, it's more idiomatic to say the episode does.
"In spite of this positive reception, the episode and others featuring Grandpa Boris and his wife Minka attracted controversy ..."—it's not in spite of, or despite, the positive reception, it's simply in addition to. Per WP:AVOID, such words "can sometimes imply that one alternative is less favored than another". In short, the article is dictating again to the reader what to think. Simply present the fact as is, rather than adding commentary.
I've taken a swing at these issues myself ([64]; [65]; [66]; [67]); feel free to disagree with the way in which I resolved them and recast them yourself, but they definitely needed attention, and the rest of the article should be scanned for similar issues. For a factual error to go unnoticed for so long is slightly worrying too, especially as it seemed obvious that the chronology didn't quite gel. I'll watchlist the FAC, so there's no need to ping me if you reply; I'll get back to you as soon as I'm able. All the best, SteveT • C10:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments and—more importantly—thank you for fixing most of them yourself, lol. Your adjustments seem fine and your explanations for them also are definitely justifiable. The Flash{talk}02:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome; if I get time later today I'll see if I can give some pointers for the rest of the article. All the best, SteveT • C08:37, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've wiped my opposition. I didn't have a massive amount of time, but I reckon I've fixed the remaining obvious prose bumps. It might be worth pinging Andy to see if he agrees. One last thing, a link in the "Plot" section goes to Menorah (Temple); the infobox image shows a nine-branched Menorah. I haven't seen the episode (my kid is more of a Spongebob nut), but if the Menorah featured is also nine-branched, shouldn't the link be to Menorah (Hanukkah)? Anyway, good luck with the rest of it, SteveT • C10:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the sole dab link. No dead externals either.
Alts look good.
The few ref dates are ISO style. Prose dates are (at least mostly) Month Day, Year. I'm slightly disturbed by all the paragraphs that start with dates, especially at "Manoeuvring and negotiation". At least they're not one-liners.
Image Comments (man, am I the only one who finds Canadian politics incredibly dry?)
File:William Abrehart and his Cabinet.jpg and all the rest of the images are clearly public domain in Canada, but I'm not sure the PD-US tags apply; there's no evidence that these were published in the United States without the required notices, and also note the template says that "there must be verifiable information about previous publications of the work", which is not found on the image description page. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)19:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While technically that is the case, I have been told by a couple of Commons administrators that no one over there enforces that rule. But I would be fine with going along with whatever you suggest. NW(Talk)20:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
None of the images in this article have been published in the United States prior to 1996 (as far as I or the archive folks are aware), which means that they entered the public domain in the United States January 1, 1996. Steve Smith (talk) 21:04, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then can you append that the archives are not aware of any previous publication in the US? And if the Commons chaps aren't going to enforce that (which seems foolish, considering its a matter of legality like anything else) they should just strip it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)15:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I gave this a detailed peer review at which numerous minor issues were resolved. The backwaters of Canadian provincial politics is not an eye-catching topic; if Steve had added the words "shock! horror!" to the title the article might have got more attention here. Nevertheless, this is a solid, well-written piece of work, the kind of stuff unlikely to be available anywhere else but Wikipedia, genuinely expanding knowledge of an esoteric area. Brianboulton (talk) 10:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support with comments. It's really good. There are significant gaps in our coverage of such historical events, so I'm glad to see it here. Just a couple fit and finish items I couldn't correct myself:
Name redlinks... are many of them actually likely to become articles?
Check MoS... you have several instances of longer quotations that appear to end in periods; however, you have the period outside the closing quotation mark. Ex. "and 'if anyone gets in our way, he's going to get into trouble ... we must choose between principles and party, between Social Credit and Premier Aberhart'." In this case, if the quotation actually ends on "Aberhart" in the source, the period would be placed inside the closing quotation mark.
Thanks, Andy. To your questions, the answer to the first is "Give me an infinite amount of time, and they will. And even if you don't, I suspect Þadius (talk·contribs) will get around to them. On the MOS issue, I'll give that a look - thanks again. To clarify, this applies only where (as above) I'm quoting a quote from a source, rather than just quoting the source? Steve Smith (talk) 17:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right on the quoting a quote. It's a small item I would normally just fix but sometimes it requires access to the source to verify that the quotation actually ended there. Thanks! --Andy Walsh(talk)18:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I reviewed this article at GA a couple of months ago. I have re-read it. i don't know why everyone says its so dull. For political nerds in Westminster system countries this is a wild ride, an extraordinary tale of our system of government being pushed to the limit and then beyond. It's one of my favourite wikipedia entries. I was not familiar with some of the book publishers and checked them out - they look sound. I can't access these books, so i'm not commenting further on WP:V. But I don't think one makes this stuff up... The prose is excellent, and well-crafted to tell a story that is quite complicated. Linking looks about right. Facts are closely referenced where required. Steve, can you comment on why Schultz's article, which is perhaps the only academic journal article specifically about the subject of this WP entry, is only cited once? Regards, hamiltonstone (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your support, your earlier GA review, and your extraordinarily kind words. In response to your question, I started off by writing the article from the books, all of which are in my personal library. It was only after I had written the article from those that I searched for outside sources, including the Schultz paper; the vast majority of what was in there, while excellent, duplicated material that I had already found. I could certainly sprinkle Schultz references more liberally around the article, since most of what's in the article is found in Schultz's paper, but current citations generally reflect where I first located the material. Steve Smith (talk) 18:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support A well-written, comprehensive article for all I can see. Great work! Ucucha10:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)Comment. I actually liked reading this article, and don't know why it'd be considered dull. The subject is interesting, as hamilstonstone said, and the prose is engaging. The reason I'm not supporting yet is that I've a couple of picky comments; I'm not even sure I've identified a genuine problem with the article in every case. I also found the article suffered a little for overlinking, and deleted some links.[reply]
Have you considered explaining, as opposed to just linking, "backbench" in the lead? It's a somewhat obscure term, and the lead should be understandable without reference to other articles.
My thinking is that while the term may be unknown to much of the English speaking world (I'm not sure it's a majority, but certainly a substantial minority), it's likely to be familiar to a large majority of the article's readers, since they're likely to be disproportionately i. Canadian, and ii. interested in Westminster politics. It's a commonly used term in Canada (and I think other Westminster jurisdictions as well, though I could be mistaken), and I'm afraid that explaining it would disrupt the paragraph to little good effect.
Yes, it is familiar to readers in other Westminster countries, but i still lean toward Ucucha's suggestion that an explanation be squeezed in somewhere and somehow. I nearly suggested this on my reading and decided against it, but think it worth trying. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hamiltonstone started a discussion on the article's talk; I'll respond further there.
It might be more informative to have as the lead image one of revolting backbenchers, instead of the government they were revolting against. However, from a glance over the article, it appears no such image exists.
I've been unable to find any of the ringleaders, and the rebels as individuals just seem to loom less large in thie story (both in my telling and the sources') than Aberhart & Co.
"Genesis of a revolt" - why not just "Genesis", as this article is about the revolt?
Changed.
"While disowned by Douglas" - wikt:disown seems an odd word to use here. I suppose he had been in confict with Douglas; perhaps using another word would be better?
Quite possibly. "Disavowed" is the first one I thought of, but I'm not sure Hargreave would properly be the object of that verb.
Knight-errant - is this link really relevant, or is it just an attempt to make this article sound interesting? ;)
The latter.
"ill-afford" - is that one word?
Probably not.
"such commission to be responsible to the Board" - perhaps overly formal or "legalese".
Not sure I catch your meaning here.
The full sentence is "The Board was empowered to appoint a commission of between three and five experts to implement social credit, such commission to be responsible to the Board." I believe the addition of the phrase after the comma is common only in registers too formal for this article, but (of course) may be wrong.
Are you implying that public relations are not real work? Perhaps change "real work" into "substantive work".
Done
"the Social Credit League's sworn enemy" - perhaps it's better to make this point at one of the earlier places where banking is mentioned, such as the "banker's budget"?
I've added a mention elsewhere, but have preserved this one for now.
Thanks. Not sure whether preserving the other is needed.
I believe your not providing citations for image captions is justified by the fact that they provide summaries of information that is also cited in the text. However, in the image of Hugill, the piece about Aberhart viewing Hugill's action as insubordination is not explicitly in the text and should therefore perhaps be cited here, or included in the text.
Added a citation to the caption.
I changed the name of Aberhart's riding to include an en dash. You might prefer a spaced en dash in this context; there's a current discussion at WT:MOS on this topic.
I have no thoughts on the subject at all.
Ah, perhaps I shouldn't assume everyone has an opinion on obscure MOS trifles. :) But it doesn't really matter.
I'll also do technical comments (although others have also done this before):
File:William_Abrehart_and_his_Cabinet.jpg and all others, as the situation seems to be similar for all. The copyright situation appears complex (cf. Wikipedia:PD#Canadian_images:_Yousuf_Karsh). I believe all images should have evidence that they were out of copyright in Canada in 1996, so as to be PD in the US as required. The template says it should be under Crown copyright or the author should have died before 1949. The author of File:William_Aberhart2.jpg is an Alberta government department, so this may be Crown copyright, but this should be on the image page. For the others, the author is either "unknown" or a studio; the image description pages do not give evidence that this means they were out of copyright by 1996.
Alt text is okay (looked over this in my previous review, but had no comments).
You're misreading the template - it says that the image must have been taken before 1949, and be Canadian in origin, because the Canadian copyright rule for photos used to be fifty years from date of creation. Thus, any photo taken pre-1946 was in the public domain by 1996. Steve Smith (talk) 08:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, mixed up some of the "ands" and dates there. I do think the image descriptions should explain that the image was PD in Canada in 1996. Ucucha08:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It does: "...and it was in the public domain in its home country on the URAA date (January 1, 1996 for most countries)." (from the second template). Steve Smith (talk) 08:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article status because I've worked on expanding it and have exhausted the resources I have to make this a comprehensive article. I believe it's ready for featured article status based on the recent expansion and tidying I've done. I hope to improve upon it further with the comments left here. Rkitko(talk)19:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Technical stuff no dabs, no deadlinks, Alt text is present but needs some work. It tends to be saying what is being shown (name of plant) rather than what it looks like - what colour are the leaves? Also pointless "image of.." Captions and alt text both include article title, not needed.Jimfbleak - talk to me?08:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The specific epithetregia - fine, but what is the etymology of Drosera?
a reference to regal position in the genus - word missing?
operculate despite the dabcheck missing it, this is a dab page
of the most ancient characteristics within the genus. Some of these characteristics... - can one of the "characteristics" go?
the most endangered Drosera species threatened with extinction in the wild. reads oddly, perhaps the most endangered Drosera species, since it is threatened with extinction in the wild.
It is cultivated, however, by carnivorous plant enthusiasts - "however" is meaningless padding. Don't vegetarian plant enthusiasts grow it? Perhaps needs tweaking to remove unintended but amusing ambiguity.
Most issues fixed. The etymology of Drosera is discussed on the genus page. Should it be repeated on each species article? Operculum (botany) isn't a dab page; it says it's a stub article, but it's more like a set-index article. And I'm a vegetarian carnivorous plant enthusiast! I can't think of a way to fix the ambiguity, though I think it's understood through the previous usage of "carnivorous plant" that carnivorous modifies plant and not enthusiast. "Carnivorous plant" is a phrase used frequently to described these plants, so it should be understood (e.g. the International Carnivorous Plant Society is not a wholly carnivorous society, nor is the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter a meat-eating print publication). If you still think these need to be addressed, I'll take another stab at it. Cheers, Rkitko(talk)14:45, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem with the ambiguity really. Personally I always repeat genus etymology in the species' articles for completeness, and to avoid readers having to follow a link to find out what the other half of the binomial means. I accept that other editors may take a different view, and at least it is a conscious decision and not an oversight Jimfbleak - talk to me?11:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One problem with conversion templates is their inaccuracy. In the description 2 cm is given as 1 in (wrong) and 0.8 in (near enough). Also, why AE "meter" for a South African plant Jimfbleak - talk to me?11:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the first convert template to 1 decimal point (0.8) to match the other and I used the convert template with the abbreviation for the 500-900 m figure. Fixed the "neighbor" spelling to BE. Notice any other AE spellings that need to be fixed? It's difficult for me to notice them. I always forget at least one when fixing the easy (color --> colour) and then it ends up looking inconsistent. Do you have a sharper eye for AE to BE spellings? Your welcomed meddlings are appreciated and look fine. Rkitko(talk)18:01, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 11 is a database website and has no publisher, really. It's the same database used by the International Carnivorous Plant Society. It is based on the work of Jan Schlauer (and maintained by him and others). Jan is one of the science editors for the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter and is a published expert in the field of systematics and taxonomy of carnivorous plants.
No objection. Thanks for the help identifying the full journal title. I couldn't for the life of me figure it out. I updated the article with the full English name. Cheers, Rkitko(talk)18:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The second and third sentences of the lead contain etymological information that's only mentioned in the lead, but not in the body of the article.
The information doesn't seem to fit anywhere in the body of the article. Would it go under Description? A new Etymology section would certainly be too small and just repeat the information in the lead. I'm working on getting some more information from the earliest description of the species that may help that (my library was stubborn when I requested this info through ILL before).
Well, it needs to go somewhere in the article... how about just sticking it into taxonomy? It seems to fit in with "botanical history". Should also mention the common name in that section as well, as it's currently only in the lead. How about making subsection "Evolutionary relationships" into a section (could be renamed "Phylogeny", or not)? Sasata (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I worked it in to the taxonomy section and updated based on information I got from the original species publication. Common name mentioned. I originally had "Evolutionary relationships" as an h2 section on its own, but someone else made it a subsection. And it discusses more than phylogeny, so I think I'll stick to the current name. More replies below. Thanks again for a very thorough review and all the specific comments. Cheers, Rkitko(talk)00:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*in the lead, suggest wlinking "molecular data" to something
"The leaves and tentacles, which are specialized stalked glands on the leaf surface" unclear - what are specialized stalk glands, the tentacles, or the leaves and tentacles?
Now reads: "The tentacles of all Drosera species are specialized stalked glands on the leaf's upper surface that produce a sticky mucilage." Clearer?
"...and can bend dramatically around the prey." What is it about the bending that makes it dramatic?
Now reads: "...that respond to captured prey by bending to surround it."
While I'm here, is there any more information on the biochemical/physiological mechanism the plant uses to accomplish this bending motion? Sasata (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"In its native fynbos habitat" this is the lead, so maybe a short explanation of fynbos would be in order
Now reads: "...compete for space with native marsh grasses and low evergreen shrubs." Fynbos is linked and explained in the text below. I'd rather not get too much into it in the lead.
"The lower altitude site is estimated to consist of approximately 50" ->"to have about"
"...and tapering to a filiform point." I cannot find the definition of filiform in the linked articled
Definition for filiform added to leaf shape. I've always been curious; in this case, would it also be acceptable to link to wikt:filiform?
I often link to wiktionary for technical terms in my own FACs, and haven't heard any negative remarks about the practice. Sasata (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
link dormancy
*"Plants go dormant during the colder season..." What month? Dates are given for dormancy breaking and flowering, so might as well give this info too.
No reference I've read has specified the month they go dormant, though one notes a typical growing season from October to April. Sometimes. I added this information.
*"...which possess root hairs along the terminal 15 cm (6 in)." This number means little to me without an idea of the typical total length of the root.
The references I've used did not describe total root length, which is of course relative to the size of the plant.
...which leaves me wondering if roots hairs are always on the last 6 inches of the root, or if it's proportional to the root length. Oh well, if it's not in the sources, what can ya do? Sasata (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, even the original publication doesn't really discuss the root system. A recent paper has gone to great lengths to describe the root system of Drosophyllum, noting that this is often a subject omitted when describing a species for fear of endangering rare species even more. Rkitko(talk)00:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"Studies have shown that the uniquely operculate pollen shed in tetrads (groups of four), a characteristic that is shared with the related Dionaea muscipula (the Venus flytrap) and Aldrovanda vesiculosa, is incompatible with genetically-similar plants." I'm struggling to fully understand this sentence; is the shared characteristic the fact that it's operculate, the fact that it's shed in tetrads, or the combination of both? Does "incompatible" mean it cannot fertilize? Does "genetically similar" imply the same species?
I've attempted to clarify: "Studies have shown that the uniquely operculate pollen shed in tetrads (groups of four), characteristics that are similar in the related Dionaea muscipula (the Venus flytrap) and Aldrovanda vesiculosa, is incompatible with genetically-similar clones, failing to produce seed when plants are self-fertilised."
*"Seeds are linear and ornamented..." ornamented with what?
Seed ornamentation is just a morphology term, meaning the seed isn't featureless. The references used don't describe the type of ornamentation, so I just tried to clarify what is meant by ornamentation.
*"Drosera regia shares other features with D. arcturi, especially the robust form from Tasmania.[2][3][6]" Three refs to convince me that it shares some features, but it doesn't tell me what these shared features are? I feel cheated!
Clarified. Two of those refs were for the first sentence, oops! I added a few more characteristics.
*"It has a diploid chromosome number of 2n = 34, which is unusual for the genus Drosera and closer to the diploid chromosome number of the Venus flytrap (Dionaea muscipula)," what is usual for the genus? What's the chromosome number of the flytrap?
Gosh, I've been working on that for a while. I added a new ref and some more explanation. I've been confused by the conflicting chromosome number reports of Dionaea, so I just included the uncertainty.
relink endemic in Dist & Hab
*How about a distribution map?
I have seen no map produced (probably due to the species' scarcity, don't want to encourage the poachers, do we?), so I'd be wary of producing an incorrect one. Add to that the lack of clear, reliable location data beyond the variably spelled "Bain's kloof", "Bainskloof", "Baineskloof" or even "Baviaanskloof" valley, I've got a very, very vague sense of where this species is located. I'm tracking down the original publication of the species which might help (sometimes these older publications are more specific).
*neighbouring = Brit English
It's a South African species, so BE should be used. I'm used to AE and just started trying to fix all the spellings to BE, so I hope I don't miss any.
"D. regia is found in a natural fynbos vegetation" Again, I think it would be worthwhile to use a few words to describe this habitat.
link grasses (maybe) and sedges (definitely)
there are some missing non-breaking spaces in the Latin names in the Taxonomy section; might be worthwhile to recheck the entire article for this
*"A. A. Obermeyer suggested..." who is this?
Linked (new article) and added "South African botanist"
wlink taxonomy
*"Phylogenetic analysis of morphological characteristics and gene sequences has supported the basal relationship long suspected of D. regia," Basal relationship with what? And link basal (phylogenetics)... ok I see it linked later in the paragraph
wikilink to basal moved up; clarified to "basal position within the genus long suspected of D. regia"
*somewhere "relict" should be clarified or defined
Now reads: "...relict characteristics, ones it likely shared with the common ancestor of all Drosera such as the operculate pollen,"
*any chance of including DOI's (if available) for the journal articles?
Only one, it seems. And an ISSN for another. Journal articles are either too old or the journal doesn't/didn't use DOIs then.
not a fan of the current image placement (three images stacked on right hand side)... how about a Feng shiu shakeup?
I prefer images on the right. Images on the left always feel like they're breaking the flow of the article and you have a harder time of making sure the text isn't squeezed between them. I see no problem with the layout as is.
"2n = 20 is considered to be a possible base number for the genus that all other chromosome numbers in most other species has been derived from by polyploid speciation (successive doublings of the chromosomes)." This sentence needs a bit of work—it's somewhat unwieldy, and it starts with a number.
"A second population was located in 1926 about Template:6.5 away below" something funny going on there
I worked on clarifying the chromosome description. Any better now? I also took care of the template:6.5 issue. I had just forgotten the template name (convert). --Rkitko(talk)05:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. I'm mostly satisfied with the prose, other than the items below. I'm mostly opposing on 1b and possibly 1c; cultivation is not treated thoroughly and I'm not satisfied that a blurb from the ICPS newsletter is the best we can do on the research side.
"this is often cited as an indication of these two species' ancient lineage." Avoid using "this" as a vague reference to some previous concept or term. This what? This similarity?
"Studies have shown that the uniquely operculate pollen shed in tetrads (groups of four), characteristics that are similar" Why "characteristics" plural? Isn't this one characteristic?
Also, "genetically-similar clones" seems an oxymoron, considering the linked article explains that a clone is genetically identical and that is my general understanding of the word.
Good catch. Not quite an oxymoron, but I had attempted to clarify on Sasata's point above what was meant by "genetically-similar". Does simply deleting "genetically-similar" do the trick, or is more required to put "clones" in context? Rkitko(talk)05:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Exceptions to this include the Australian, New Zealand and Southeast Asian Drosera, which have chromosome numbers ranging from 2n = 6 to 64." Again, this what? This chromosome count?
There is not sufficient explanation of what conditions cause D. regia to fail to flower or go dormant. You mention that they don't go dormant sometimes, and that under Clemens' conditions they neither flower nor go dormant. Why is that?
We're at the mercy of what's available in the references. There's no explanation given anywhere in reliable sources. Rumor and speculation on the carnivorous plant listserv is that lack of a sufficient cold period halts flowering, but this is hardly reliable. I trust the source, but it's never been a rightfully published observation. As for dormancy, the only mention of it not going dormant was frustratingly vague, thus so is my description. I do believe I've exhausted the available literature on that topic. The natural variation of plant populations is often just assumed, and so no explanation for why some plants don't go dormant some years isn't heavily investigated. --Rkitko(talk)21:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is not sufficient explanation of the background and history of cultivation. You mention that carnivorous plant enthusiasts cultivate them, and you have a couple sentences about "Big Easy". But, how did this cultivation come about? Did someone have to travel to Africa and bring back a plant or a clipping? There is a bit more information available in the linked source, but how do we know Clemens' account is reliable? He purchased it from "Marie's Orchards" but that's a pretty long leap from a valley in South Africa. Do all enthusiasts have plants related to Clemens'? If not, what do they have? Etc.
Again, unknown, or at least not published by reliable sources. Again, the listserv discussion indicate all cultivated plants are the same clone, but there's no published history of cultivation. I agree it must have come from South Africa at some point, but we just don't have the information on where. I also wasn't comfortable saying this because again, I have no reliable sources to cite in the article, but this species is rather rare in cultivation. It's not offered all that often by carnivorous plant nurseries and most people get it from trading. Find me a source that says that and I'll put it in! But the truth is, there really isn't that much to say about cultivation. I'll try to add a bit more from the linked source as you suggest, but I wanted to avoid the section becoming a how-to guide (WP:NOTHOWTO) on how to grow the species. There is another source on cultivation of the species (Janssens, J. (1986) "In vitro propagation of sundew, Drosera regia Stephens"), but my academic library was unable to encourage a lending library to send it or make a photocopy pdf. I'll work on the rest of your points above in a bit. Cheers, Rkitko(talk)21:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough on both points. I don't mind checking for sources though, if I can offer any assistance. What library databases usually carry the relevant academic journals that might carry information about cultivation? --Andy Walsh(talk)22:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if there are any. I do believe I've tracked down most, if not all, references related to this plant. I was only unable to obtain the Janssens (1986) article. I just put in an e-mail request to the director of the ILL system at the college I work at to see if she can perhaps try again. I have access to JSTOR, EBSCO, FirstSearch, etc. and I haven't run across anything that would clear up these points in the article. I forgot to mention that others since Clemens published his cultivar have reported getting 'Big Easy' to flower, but it's only been chatter in the e-mail listserv. I do wish someone would publish a new article on its cultivation so I could cite it! There is an earlier Carnivorous Plant Newsletter article by Bob Ziemer link that I initial rejected because it's really just his first-hand account of his growth conditions and experience, which may not apply to all cultivation efforts. Coincidentally, I got my D. regia as a gift from Mr. Ziemer. I'll work on this and provide a diff with my attempt for your review. Cheers, Rkitko(talk)23:03, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're correct about the sources after digging around for a while. I've withdrawn my opposition based on 1b and 1c, and will re-examine the prose after your tweaks. The plant is certainly interesting! --Andy Walsh(talk)01:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your helpful comments. I've addressed some of the above in this diff. I also added a bit more of the cultivation info. Check over that and make sure the prose is acceptable. Cheers, Rkitko(talk)05:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent points. The only mention of legislative recognition is by the Andreas Fleischmann reference, [70], a forum discussion, but Andreas is a published expert on the genus. I've cited him specifically and only for the account of his trip there to verify the "50 mature plants" bit in the article. In an earlier post in the same thread, [71], Andreas mentions, "This plant is protected by Western Cape Nature Conservation Laws Amendment Act since 1992, and the protection was reconfirmed in 2000," but I have been unable to find Drosera regia listed in the text of that act that I could find. He also mentions that the plant grows within the borders of the "Baineskloof Nature Reserve", which doesn't seem to exist ([72] ?) or is perhaps misspelled. He would know better than I would, but I can't find the proper documentation. There doesn't appear to be any management of the population. Reintroduction of fire would be key, but no written record of any effort like this exists, at least as far as I've searched. None of the other general references I have discuss these aspects of the species' conservation and I don't feel comfortable citing Andreas' account for anything other than the personal observation of the population size. I hope that clarifies. I'll go back and look more for this info, but I doubt I'll find anything I can cite. Rkitko(talk)16:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok... I found one thing of interest. The February 2009 interim red list produced by the South African Threatened Species Programme actually lists this species as "Least Concern"... Amazing. I'll e-mail the redlist officer for clarification to see if that's a typo. Cheers, Rkitko(talk)16:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Likely. That seems to be the right area. I don't know if there are any publications that mention D. regia growing in this reserve, though. I'll do some searching. Rkitko(talk)02:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: 1c: use of Britannica, an unsigned tertiary source by non experts. Your explanation is singularly unconvincing as to why we should throw sourcing rules for the Biography of a major historical figure out the window simply because this is a fine arts article. Alexander_III_of_Macedon includes a number of biographical secondary sources you might want to consult.04:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC) Fifelfoo (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To put that into a blockquote would conflict with the image on the left. I find that blockquotes break the flow and generally try to avoid them (the article's one blockquote is a translation and not an excerpt from a text). Unless it's a requirement, I'd prefer to leave things as they are. —Anonymous DissidentTalk13:56, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't regard my comments last time as resolved; the only sustained and comprehensive analysis of the painting used is Hagen, with Wood's shorter analysis, in a book all on Altdorfer, also used. We have other FAs on paintings included in the Hagens' books, which are good popular works with articles in similar format on "greatest hits" of painting. Las Meninas does not use the Hagens at all, & they are I think used for 1/65 notes in Rokeby Venus, because these articles had better and fuller references available. This doesn't seem to the case in English for the Battle of Alexander, that anyone has been able to discover. It may just be that an FA standard of comprehensiveness cannot be reached without use of the abundant German literature. Two books that are widely available & have some analysis of the painting that does not really add anything to what is here (which is why I did not mention them before), but might increase the class of referencing used are:
Snyder, James; Northern Renaissance Art, 1985, Harry N. Abrams, ISBN0136235964
- both very standard books. There is too much reliance on non-specialist references here - the last two in the article, both on art-historical points, come from: "Davis, Kathleen (2008). Periodization and sovereignty: how ideas of feudalism and secularization govern the politics of time. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN0812240839", which doesn't sound like an art-history book to me. Johnbod (talk) 17:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I'll look into both. Meanwhile, I have a text from Larry Silver (Art Bulletin) which can replace many of the lesser references to which you refer. Aside from the issue you have with the referencing, do you see any areas where you think comprehensiveness is lacking? You say "It may just be that an FA standard of comprehensiveness cannot be reached without use of the abundant German literature." but fail to point out what exactly you think is missing. This is a 43 KB article. —Anonymous DissidentTalk00:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've introduced some references from Clark. I think he has something quite valuable to add to the Reception section; I'll get to that later today. I'll try to get to a physical library for Snyder. —Anonymous DissidentTalk01:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Silver is promising. We don't have anything on the reception until Napoleon, nor from German 19th century artists, many of whom were very influenced by Altdorfer & the Danube School. There are no technical details, that might or might not be significant - condition, restoration, indications of changes in intentions etc - perhaps if there was anything really important it would be in the Munich summary catalogue. But I think some of the things the article does deal with would probably emerge rather differently with access to works that deal at length with this painting specifically. Part of the trouble is that because the work is very untypical of Altdorfer in many ways, but characteristic of him in others, it is much tricker to use general statements about his art here than it would be in dealing with a more typical work - a difficulty in using most of Wood. Obviously without having that material I can't say what might be different, but that has always been my experience. Excluding the sections on the historical battle & earlier depictions of it, the article is not so long. Johnbod (talk) 04:30, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is the word 'stopper' used deliberately? if so we might want to use a hidden comment in the source wikitext as people may change it. Is there too much historical background e.g. on Alexander, which isn't necessary to understand the painting? The quotation that includes the word proleptically, does sound pretentious even if it has some truth. From a non-expert who had not heard of this painting before, the description of it reads pretty clearly, good work so far Tom B (talk) 17:54, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Stopper is used deliberately. I'm not sure it's needed, but I'll add an invisible note since you've asked. Knowing the history isn't necessary, but it gives the reader a good idea about the heroic status of Alexander, who he was, why he matters, and why he was painted. The history also gives the readers a base with which to compare Altdorfer's depiction of the scene. I don't think how pretentious a quote sounds matters; it's the content and meaning that is important. Thanks for your comments. —Anonymous DissidentTalk12:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeSupport on 2c; ref formatting, should be easy to fix:
Under Notes, some references use one digit in the second page number (37-8) while others use two (37-38); please use two consistently
Image review: most images are from the Yorck Project, which Commons have accepted as public domain. The rest are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 13:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsSupport:
"Renowned for what Joseph M. Bryant ..."
Who is Bryant? What makes him an authority on Alexander? This also applies to Mark W. Roskil, Kathleen Davis, Rose-Marie Hagen, Kenneth Clark, and Pia F. Cuneo with respect to their comments on this painting. A qualifier (profession or title) preceding their first mention would help.
Kenneth Clark is one of the most famous art historians of the last century, Hagen a well-known popular one. I for one oppose and dislike explaining every name who crops up, if they are the expected type of expert for the subject - we ought instead to weed out any who are not art historians/historians - not that I'm saying there are any such here - or just reduce the naming in the text. This article suffers slightly from "over-attributing" very standard views or facts to individuals as though they were some original personal insight. Johnbod (talk) 13:11, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree with Johnbod that perhaps non-"true blue" art historians/historians should be excluded, sometimes certain reknowned figures might give interesting and extraordinary insight (imagine if sci-fi author Arthur C. Clarke gives critical comment on a painting of a science fiction scene). That said, I still believe that clarifying the subject's field of expertise does good, especially for the general readers (to get a feel of why this commentator's opinion is to be regarded). Not doing so, in my view, seems to be creating a walled garden atmosphere for the article (either you know who the art experts are, or you do not). Jappalang (talk) 02:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If people of not the "expected" profession, such as authors, are quoted, then yes they should be linked or given a descriptor (like Schlegel here). But if the subject is history, or biology, and people are quoted without a descriptor, the reader should be able to assume they are a historian or biologist, whether "true-blue" or not, without having to be told each time. And really people should only be mentioned, as opposed to cited, where their thoughts are at least partly original, or especially well-expressed - of course knowing where this is the case can require a good knowledge of the literature. Johnbod (talk) 05:04, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Darius and his army routed."
I thought "rout" is a transitive verb? In this case, either "Alex routed the Persians", or "the Persians were routed", right?
While an exciting read, is the Historical setting section not a bit too long? It is about the same length as the linked main article.
I'm just not sure where to thin it out. I'm sure that some reviewers will object that something so long isn't required, but I think it helps to establish who Alexander was and gives the reader an historically accurate narrative with which to compare Altdorfer's depiction. If you examine the topic of every paragraph, I think you'll find that the account is actually quite concise and without extraneous detail. —Anonymous DissidentTalk14:22, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article reads well and is nicely written, a concern that I have is who is this person - Helen of Egypt? any more information about her - better name, dates, other works, when did she paint, or a reference would help...Modernist (talk) 07:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support and Comment - She was actually called Helena of Egypt described as the daughter of Timon of Egypt, she painted the Battle of Issus. I added 2 refs...Modernist (talk) 00:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The last citation in "Literature cited" looks inconsistent (even ugly) with that angle-bracketed link. We already link to the direct source and describe the publisher; just remove that second link. "In IUCN. IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. Version 2009.2." also looks awkward to me—maybe remove "In IUCN."?
Thanks for the checks. I changed the map alt. As for the IUCN citation, it is mostly as recommended by the IUCN itself and is consistent with usage in other Oryzomyini articles. The main work is titled "IUCN Red List of Threatened Species" and the author is "IUCN", so that's how we should cite it, whether or not that looks awkward. Ucucha00:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that looks impressive. Yes, commons has some maps of the archipelago itself; I will add both after I am finished expanding the article on the local amphisbaenian. Ucucha00:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"... the authenticity of which is controversial ..."
Why is it controversial? Elaborate for the readers.
Furthermore, "An account of his voyage, the authenticity of which is controversial, recorded that on August 10, 1503, he visited an island just south of the equator, identified as Fernando de Noronha, where he saw "very big rats and lizards with two tails, and some snakes"." is a very fragmented sentence... (count the commas). Can it be broken down into shorter sentences?
(On both comments.) There's several levels of controversy here (whether the voyage actually took place and whether the account we have of it is authentic). I want to avoid going into too much detail, as it is not directly about Noronhomys. I expanded a little on it now, however, and will try to write complementary articles on the Lettera and his voyage.
Suggest changing "which took him to Brazil. The Lettera di Amerigo Vespucci delle Isole Nuovamente in Quattro Suoi Viaggi[4] recorded that during his fourth voyage he visited an island just south of the equator on August 10, 1503." to "which took him to Brazil; the Lettera di Amerigo Vespucci delle Isole Nuovamente in Quattro Suoi Viaggi recorded that he visited an island just south of the equator on August 10, 1503." Jappalang (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"... that growth continued in adults, with old adults having larger mandibular dimensions than adults, and does not provide evidence ..."
Suggest change to: "... that growth continued in adults—the older the animal, the larger its mandibular dimensions—and does not provide evidence ..."
Done.
Eh... "—with old adults have larger mandibular dimensions than adults—" is not what I suggested; for one thing, the concept of "old adults ... than adults" seems strange on the tongue. Jappalang (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for that. "Old adults" and "adults" are often used as distinct age categories in studies on rodents. In this case, they sorted the mandibles in three age categories (young adults, full adults, and old adults) on the basis of tooth wear and eruption and measured them. Their results (table 5 in Carleton and Olson 1999) show that length and width of the molars do not vary with age (as expected - rooted molars don't grow when erupted), that height of the molars is negatively correlated with age (as expected again - with wear it becomes lower), that two measures of the incisor and two of the depth of the mandible are positively correlated with age, and that the length of another part of the mandible, the condyle, is also unrelated to age. They discuss it in the text on p. 27, but don't go into too much detail. I changed the phrasing again to something close to what you suggested to be a little more precise. Ucucha21:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"... in 39 specimens in which the entire molar row is preserved."
Suggest change to: "... in 39 specimens with intact molar rows."
Done.
Are there reliable records of measurements/estimations of the whole creature so that a size comparison chart (like what is seen on dinosaur articles) such as File:Largesttheropods.svg can be made? Saying "large rats" is not as impressive as getting a visual hint on how big it can actually be... like this.
No. The animal hasn't been featured in the popular literature or anything similar, and of course, we can't have pictures of the actual animal (unless someone actually drew one in 1503). However, the article already states that it was larger than a black rat and I now also added a body mass estimate.
The body mass helps. What I meant was did anyone (notable scientist) make an estimation of the entire size of the rodent, (since the article does go into detail of the measurements of individual parts)? If that is the case, a chart like that for dinosaurs (which are sometimes based on estimations) can be made. Jappalang (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, no one did. Total length is probably very difficult because we don't know how long its tail was. Head and body length may perhaps be estimated from available measurements, but no one has tried so far. Ucucha21:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The mass of scientific names (of body parts) astound me... I do not know what precisely they are, but have an inkling. It seems overly technical to me, but I guess this would be expected of a biological article. It does seem a bit worrisome that most technical names are red-linked. Perhaps this is a bit too technical? I feel overwhelmed at times and some terms seem sudden and abrupt, e.g. "The upper incisors are opisthodont, ...": what is "opisthodont", which was never introduced earlier.
I believe all technical terms are explained or bluelinked. "Opisthodont" is explained in the following part of the sentence. I rephrased a few sentences to improve on this.
Not quite, "anterolophids", "mesolophids" and several other terms are used in explaining previous terms. I am not so hard up over this, as like I said, I do get a certain idea of what is said (just not clear comprehension). Jappalang (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anterolophids and mesolophids are part of a phrase which starts "The molars lack many accessory ridges, including ...", which should make clear that these are all accessory ridges. Going into more detail on them is possible, but would be difficult to do without a full explanation of the nomenclature for molar features (for example, the anterolophid is a ridge in the protoflexid, in between the anterolingual cuspulid and the protoconid). Are there any others that you think require more information? Ucucha21:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On re-reading the sentence alone, you are correct. However, I think my confusion (when reading the article as a whole) was influenced by the mass of technical terms used. Like I said earlier, perhaps this also cannot be helped for such an article (biology). Jappalang (talk) 23:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I implied below, articles like this have to balance between being not comprehensive enough in failing to address salient morphological points and too detailed in including too much technical description. I have tried to limit it to taxonomically significant characters (like the absence of accessory ridges, an important synapomorphy of the Holochilus group) and some more easily understood ones (like the proportions of the molars). I hope I've struck the right balance, but am open to improvements. Ucucha08:03, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can see how that might be a problem, but we have to go with the sources and the information we have, which in this case is largely limited to the technical description in Carleton and Olson and the even more technical account of the incisor enamel microstructure in Weise and Malabarba. I have tried to keep the information readable by explaining more arcane points of morphology and their evolutionary significance (such as the absence of the entepicondylar foramen, a synapomorphy of the Sigmodontinae). Not including this information would make the article fail FA criterion 1b (comprehensiveness).
Clarifying that I am supporting this article, but it is a bit uncertain due to what I perceive as a mass of technical terms (possibly a subjective concern, hence it tempers, but not obstructs, my support). Jappalang (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - leaning towardssupport. I'm impressed by the depth on such an obscure subject - extinct species on remote islands can be very difficult to get info on. A few minor quibbles.
The entepicondylar foramen is absent,[15] as in all members of the Sigmodontinae; if present, it perforates the distal (far) end of the humerus (upper arm bone). - If it is absent how can it be present? Is it usually absent?
The first two paragraphs of taxonomy are more a history of the species and humans than taxonomy, perhaps breaking into related subsections might be good, or modifying the section heading to "Description and taxonomy"?
Otherwise this really isn't far off to my mind. It is technical, but that is all this kind of article can be, either that or really short. Oh, If you can, get someone to make you a diagram like this one, it would help the reader picture the creature. Sabine's Sunbirdtalk20:14, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments. This one was in fact fairly easy on the information, because it was recently and comprehensively described and no substantive other information is known about it.
As for the foramen, it's present in rodents that are not sigmodontines (deermice and hamsters, for example, I believe). I added a clarification to account for that.
Such an image would be original research, I believe. There are no body size estimates, only a rather crude estimate of the body mass. Ucucha21:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments, leaning toward support. Overall it is good, and accessible enough if you can get past all the technical body part names. I do have a concern about overlinking, especially the red links. Are most of these really likely to become articles, or should they redirect to larger articles? Additionally, some of them are linked multiple times, creating the quite visually distracting sea of red links. I'd like to see some strategy in place for remedying this, even if it's putting together a small task force to create stubs for those articles. --Andy Walsh(talk)17:28, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for commenting. Which terms are linked multiple times? They should not be, and I think I avoided doing that (except for mesoloph, the second occurrence of which I delinked). Writing articles on those terms is somewhere on my list of things to do, but it may take some time. I do think they deserve their own articles, perhaps with the exception of some of the molar features (such as the entoflexid). Ucucha21:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I went through and delinked a few more items. It's not just the redlinks—you had some other terms linked multiple times, sometimes even in the same paragraph. --Andy Walsh(talk)19:10, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, thought you were referring to red links only there. Thanks for catching these links; I found one more. I just created an article on one of the anatomical terms (posterolateral palatal pits), and will continue to do so. Ucucha19:52, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The "extinction" section is awfully short (one paragraph), and to me that's the most interesting thing about the subject, so I'm wondering if there's more that could be written. Since there was no human habitation at the time, I'm sure information is scarce, but I'd imagine we could have some more detail on scientific speculation. Everyking (talk) 23:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Carleton and Olson discuss this on pp. 48-49 (link to full text is in the article - you can read it for yourself if you wish). They go into a bit more detail than the article does, but nothing really relevant to this article, I think. Not much has been written on this animal. The only piece of original biological information we have about the living animal is that Vespucci saw it (with the associated uncertainties of that account); otherwise, we have to use the subfossils Carleton and Olson used to describe the species. In some cases, the subfossil records may be so good that they can be helpful in determining the cause of extinction (for example, one may see a gradual replacement of indigenous rodents by introduced mice and rats over time), but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
In that case, the only thing left is speculating informed by what's happened in other island rodents. There's an awful lot of such rodents that got extinct over the last centuries (see Rodents of the Caribbean for one regional overview), and some have better information. For example, the Canary Islands rat Malpaisomys and the Christmas Island rats Rattus macleari and Rattus nativitatis apparently succumbed to disease brought by introduced rodents, and Megalomys luciae and Megalomys desmarestii of the Lesser Antilles are thought to have been driven to extinction by mongoose predation. The article currently contains a summary of Carleton and Olson's speculations on that, as it should, and although I just added one minor point, there doesn't seem to be anything else to add. Ucucha13:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"N. vespuccii was a fairly large rodent," I've been told you shouldn't start sentences, let alone paragraphs, with the abbreviated genus name.
Quite true. Done.
I'd like to know in the lead if the fossil remains were complete or partial, and if complete, if there was more than one fossil.
"Numerous but fragmentary fossil remains"
caption: "…the island group to which Noronhomys is endemic." shouldn't this be past tense?
Yes, that's better. Done.
Michael D. Carleton -> use non-breaking spaces for names with initials (or the equivalent {{nowrap}} template)
Done.
"The material is now in the United States National Museum of Natural History" shouldn't that be States' (i.e. a possessive, not an adjective)?
No, "United States" is used as an adjective here.
link specific name
Done.
the convert templates are set to Brit spelling output, contrary to the spelling of the rest of the article
Killed them.
"Analysis of metrical data" is this the same as morphometrical, mentioned in the last section?
Yes, changed this into morphometrical.
"which are uniserial (consisting of a single prism)" what's a prism?
It's the tooth enamel. Incisor enamel microstructure is so arcane a subject that even technical papers which report on it generally include an introduction explaining important terms and concepts.
link vulcanism
Done.
"Remains of Noronhomys were found in association with various reptiles, birds, and snails" do you mean the fossilized remains of these creatures?
I'd like to have a better idea of how well-known the fauna of this island is. What are the chances that this rat is not actually extinct, and just hides in the bushes whenever a scientist comes on the island? Do people live on the island?
There are a few thousand people there. The fauna perhaps isn't terribly well-studied (I think they had Ridley around 1890, who studied pretty much everything, and at least some people studying lizards etc. thereafter), but neither Carleton and Olson nor the IUCN include any speculation that it is still extant, so I don't think we should, even implicitly. Ucucha08:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My database gives the spelling of one of the source authors as Weiss, not Weise
Looks like you're right. The Zoological Record does list Weiss, and I think it is this student.
Support I also checked 1(b) and 1(c); the coverage looks thorough, and the article uses all available scholarly resources. Props for finding enough relevant pics to make it visually interesting as well. Sasata (talk) 08:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:RED; redlinks are not a problem, and stubbing them is not required. However, the redlinks in this article leave sentences incomprehensible to the layperson, so unless the redlinks are stubbed, definitions would be needed here. One example:
What is an alisphenoid strut? I can figure out that the masticatory ... and foramen are two parts of the skull, I guess? In cases like this, the absence of a stub makes the article hard to digest. Sample only. Another sample:
The entepicondylar foramen is absent,[2] as in all members of the Sigmodontinae; if present, as in some other rodents, it perforates the distal (far) end of the humerus (upper arm bone).
Even after reading that it "perforates the far end of the upper arm bone", I still don't know what the entepicondylar foramen is. Another sample:
The PI consists of Hunter-Schreger bands, which are uniserial (consisting of a single enamel prism), ...
So, I know these bands are uniserial, and that is defined, but I still don't know what they are. Also, per WP:MOSBOLD, volume numbers in Literature cited should be bold; that can be done manually, or by using {{cite journal}}. The jargon here needs work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I clarified the first two samples you mentioned. I think it should be clear from the existing wording that the MBF and the FOA are openings in the skull. I'll create a stub on the HSB tomorrow.
MOSBOLD only says "[v]olume numbers of journal articles [should be bolded] in some bibliographic formats"; in the bibliographic format (reference style) I chose, they are not bolded. Ucucha22:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The link is to foramen and is intentional. That page shouldn't be a dab, but rather an article on foramina in general; I changed it accordingly. Ucucha07:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
There is still life in the games where you play as a wizard, collect incredibly powerful spells, build an army, and then go and sacrifice the bodies of your enemies to your god.
”
— David Perry (founder of Shiny Entertainment), The Illustrated History of Electronic Games High Scores! (2nd ed.). 2004. p. 277.
Perry failed to mention that the wizard, Eldred, was a refugee tyrant from a world ravaged by a demon he had summoned. Apart from sacrificing his enemies and using their souls as cannon fodder, Eldred also sacrifices his troops to banish other wizards! The game's graphic engine uses tessellation, and its results—along with crazy creature designs—wowed reviewers. Throw in five gods who comically bicker and plot among themselves (one of whom is a large anthromorphic earthworm), and you get a game that was praised by all and enjoyed huge profits from the sales! ... or did it? Read on and judge (the article had been peer reviewed twice,[77][78] gotten A-class,[79] and given a quick copyedit by Maralia). Nonetheless, here is a dithy to appeal for your FAC review... (sing to this tune in a Tim Curry voice, or if you prefer, Brad Garrett, both of whom voiced gods in this game)
I worked my magic dearly to do my best
There must be more to this game than R-T-S
Why should we look for some other text
Is this article not the best there is?
Ain't no sense in not reviewing
I'm gonna make it worth your ride
Don't you know
I won't give up until you've read Sacrifice
Don't you know
Why should I stop until you've read Sacrifice
Please reconsider the dab hatnote on top—people probably won't type "Sacrifice (video game)" to look for any other sense of the word. Otherwise, no dabs or dead external links.
Alt text looks good. Perhaps you can mention that the game screenshots take place under mostly cloudy skies.
Right, the hatnote has been removed. Blame Interplay's box artist for any plagiarism of concepts (heh). As for cows... I had taken a screenshot of James' Bovine Intervention spell, but the cow looked too small to be of any use (and critical commentaries of cow-tapults are lesser than the natural element spells). Tis a shame... Jappalang (talk) 08:17, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (c.1, 2, 3): Well, you certainly put effort into the nomination statement and edit summary, props for that :) It'll take me some time to get through the entire article (workin' over the holidays, yay!), but I have to re-register my opinion expressed at the peer review that the article does not meet WP:NFCC. File:Sacrifice by Interplay - formation.jpg can be reduced in resolution, File:Sacrifice by Interplay - creatures.jpg could be cropped, resized or simply reshot, and I don't think the single opinion used in the reception section merits the level of commentary for File:Sacrifice by Interplay - tornado.jpg, especially since most graphic comments picked relate specifically to the creatures.
Aside from that, the sources look good and the more iffy ones have been properly defended at the Peer review, methinks. There are no gaps in coverage for what we would expect. One flyby comment that I touched upon in the peer review and want to stress again is the changes in tense (in some areas it's present, in others past). I suggest changing it all to past, this not only frees you from concerns about having to update syntax in the article in the future but also gives it a more historical framing. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)17:32, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Focusing on the tense issues, I was following WP:VG/GL#Verb tense where it implies unless a game never existed, it and its contents should be phrased in the present tense. Of course, I am amiable to changing this style if more grammar experts could weigh in (maybe we can possibly change the guideline if it is incorrect). Of the Reception section, only the talk on gameplay is in present tense, the rest (commentators' opinions) are couched in the past. If there are any glaring contradictions, I would appreciate anyone who points it out and I would quickly get on it. Jappalang (talk) 22:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the images, the peer reviews expressed a variety of opinions (agreeing they satisfy the NFCC and disagreements), so I would prefer a wider range of opinions to make a concensus. Jappalang (talk) 03:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Cites are good Fifelfoo (talk) 01:32, 5 January 2010 (UTC) 2c needs a little bit of work differentiating between the work contained in and the publisher for some websites. I suspect Inside Mac Games is the name of a publication, rather than a publisher. This is a polish issue though. Dates are consistent in cites. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I gave this a thorough peer review which sorted out many issues. I am not a natural reader of videogame articles, but I am impressed by the clarity with which this article explains its subject-matter. There is a small residue of niggly points, none of which is worth withholding support for:-
Why the multiple citations? (e.g. at the end of the Graphics section, fourth line of Reception section)?
The recognition "by the industry" requires several sources to show that it is the industry (and not just one or two sites) that recognize the game. Jappalang (talk) 00:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"To fellow journalist Kieron Gillen, the game resembled a version of Command and Conquer by Hieronymus Bosch if the Renaissance painter was its designer." I spent some time puzzling over this, not knowing that "Command and Conquer" refers to another strategy game. For clarity can I suggest "To fellow journalist Kieron Gillen, the game resembled a version of Command and Conquer as designed by the Renaissance painter Hieronymus Bosch."
"Another reason, offered by Gillen, for Sacrifice's commercial failure was the size of its development team." Should specify the small size, since this is I think the point being made.
I am not sure that "Legacy" is the most appropriate title for the last section. A legacy suggests something handed on or passed down; so far as I can see there was nothing passed on, apart from the game's pioneering of the mouse-gesture control system, hardly a "legacy". It's more a case of "consequences", "aftermath" or "repercussions".
Although "Legacy" might be pushing it, the three suggestions seem negative, and would make the game seem like some terrible natural disaster (not that Sacrifice evokes many positive thoughts, mind). When I read "aftermath" I think "hurricane death toll". Maybe I should blame the media. --anoddname20:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with AnOddName about "aftermath"; it has been used too much with disasters such that there is a negative connotation in using it. I am amiable to changing the name of this sub-section (but to other suggestions), or removing the header and plonking the text into Reception, though. Jappalang (talk) 00:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think leaving it is the best option for the moment. Maybe in due course a better title will spring to mind, but it's not an issue as far as this FAC is concerned. Brianboulton (talk) 00:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good Old Games is an online video games store. Although one might discount it for commercial interest here, its editorial is sourced for (1) plot information (which has no personal opinions or judgments injected, hence reliable) and (2) David Perry's statement of which specific fantasy genre his team avoided in designing the game's creatures (the source states this plainly, making it easy for anyone to verify Perry said that). None of the statements are simply opinions and readily verifiable fact. Jappalang (talk) 00:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rock, Paper, Shotgun is a website set up by Kieron Gillen, Jim Rossignol, Alec Meer and John Walker—all with long years of experience of writing for dead-tree video game publications and web-based established sites. This article refers to two articles written by Gillen, and the information is reliable based on his considered position of expertise knowledge of the video game industry and the subject. Jappalang (talk) 00:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This site is set up by Richard Bartle, co-author of the first multi-user dungeon (MUD). He is a highly recognised figure within the computer role-playing game industry as a pioneer. He also has a PhD in artificial intelligences and is an active writer on the multi-player video game industry. The page referred is his article on the state of video gaming, and information sourced is from the interview he conducted with David Perry. The information is fact (technical details) and not an opinion or judgment; hence, reliable. Jappalang (talk) 00:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As already explained, Gillen is already an established expert in the industry with multiple articles published by third party sources (you can find them in his article or a casual search on Google). Bartle is an acknowledged expert too, with his Designing virtual worlds (as an example) a source for several other publications.[81] As for GOG, it is used with regards to WP:PRIMARY; the article is not interpreting the information it supplies, and I see no reason to dispute Perry's words as given. Nevertheless, I have asked Ealdgyth to offer another viewpoint on these sources.[82]Jappalang (talk) 12:53, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There was one reference that was using spaced em-dash; the others are using unspaced em-dashes. This has been corrected. Does that resolve your concern? Jappalang (talk) 00:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So unconventional were the designs that gaming journalist Michael Eilers remarked... wouldn't it be easier for you just to say "The designs were so unconventional that..." I'm all for creative writing, but simple english is just as effective here and improves the prose. GroundZ3R000200:09, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given the immense volume of reviews and thoughts in the reception section, I believe a {{VG Reviews}} box would benefit the article. This is going by the example set by other featured articles and the fact that such a thick amount of information would make it difficult for a reader to obtain simple review scores with such a format. Not a requirement, but strongly, strongly, recommended. GroundZ3R000202:27, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to disagree here; it is not a requirement, but I also think it might not be of help here; I have outlined my reasons basically at Talk:Sacrifice (video game)#2009 Rewrite when I started rewriting the article. In summary, each reviewer has a different standard for his or her numerical score (and is incongruent when brought up against each other). Initially, I did not have a strong opinion for or against their inclusion, but am now favoring their exclusion (having read many dead-paper books that tend to exclude discussions of numerical scores when commenting on a game, and seeing numerous Wikipedia articles where the tables are stuffed with scores for various platforms and for "balance"), though not strongly. For the discussions on the tables, refer to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 76#Overuse of review boxes in Reception sections and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 62#New template for reviews section (the last thread has my pointers to older discussions too). Jappalang (talk) 02:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I do believe it helps ease reader comprehension, but the section does that well as it is. The exclusion of this will not stop me from supporting the FAC when I have made more comments if there are issues I notice. GroundZ3R000203:08, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: "No sales figures were released for Sacrifice, but the industry acknowledges the game did not sell well"--I'm not sure sourcing that to RPS and IMG exactly establishes it as "the industry". Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)23:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is not just RPS and IMG; the two following sentences expounding on this (James Bell's and Gillen's comments) also support the industry knowledge that the game failed to be a best seller. I figured that rather than tack them to the first general sentence (doubling the number of cites to it from 2 to 4), they would be more suitably attached to their detailed statments. Jappalang (talk) 01:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further rejoinder: I have copyedited the article; I removed the unnecessary double-spaces between sentences, as the article was inconsistent about it, one way or another, and cut down of some redundancies and unnecessary phrases (there were one or two places I tweaked word choice, so I suggest checking and make sure I didn't misrepresent a source.) I also switched around some tenses. There are sections of the reception I did not change, because changing the tense from present to past would sound strange--the problem is that reviewers opinions of the game are essentially presented as fact, i.e. "Looking over the wizard from his back, the point of view focuses too close to the ground, preventing players from having a clear picture of their wizards' surroundings". These should be recast and optimally the whole critical reception section should be switched to past where appropriate, as you're describing reception that was, not is. I am leaning support, but the images are still a dealbraker for me. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)15:06, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have recasted the section a tad, and also added more to the spell effects on reviewers.[84] I had initially discarded them because their comments were "less impressive" than the quotes by Bye, Gillen, and Edge; however, by adding them, I hope they further the impression of the graphics were not mostly on the creatures (it was quite balanced between the small creatures and the "gargantuan" spells). This should help show the significance of the tornado image. Jappalang (talk) 01:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support from Ruhrfisch - I have read this twice now and it seems to meet the FAC criteria - it is well-written, nicely illustrated with properly justified fair-use images, and the references seem fine to me too (though I am not an expert on games). I have a few quibbles, that do not detract from my support:
Awkward sentence Close proximity to a fountain of mana scattered across the world increases his or her recovery rate as well. I think it means something like Close proximity to one of several fountains of mana scattered across the world increases his or her recovery rate as well.
Would it make sense to add "computer" before platforms in Multiplayer matches cannot be played between different platforms.[30]
Missing word? Perry promoted the game by visiting professional game reviewers, such as FiringSquad, and giving copies of the beta [version?] to them.[34]
Support: After viciously scanning this article for little clicks and mistakes, I have come up with none. I have no complaints with this article and therefore I express my thorough support for this to pass its FAC. GroundZ3R000200:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support with comments - Good work on this one! A couple bothers buried near the end... no show-stoppers but I'd like to see them answered.
"has been one of PC Gamer's Top 100 Games for at least eight consecutive years." Why no precision? Is the number not known, or are you just trying to maintain currency without going back to update?
Sort of both (though "at least 8 years"—2001 (release) to 2009 (last known Top 100 announcement)— is verifiable by checking up the PC Gamer's Top 100 for each year and Gillen's remarks. The phrase also allows a lesser frequency of updates (The Top 100 is also supposedly going to shift to a reader-votes based system instead of through editorial decisions, so future Top 100 might not be "reliable"...). Jappalang (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"but the industry acknowledged the game did not sell well." Hmm. I'm not crazy about letting Rock, Paper, Shotgun and Inside Mac Games speak for "the industry", are you?
Oh well, coupled with David Fuch's earlier remarks, I changed "the industry" to "several members of the video game industry"; this should be qualified by Gillen's and Eiler's pieces, and the followup by Bell. Jappalang (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportA few Comments and questions for now—I know absolutely nothing about video games and apart from Space invaders, I have never played one so please forgive my ignorance:
I don't understand, "Each match starts the player's wizard with an altar."
The term is elaborated in the following sentence, but I see how it can confuse on the first read; I dropped the term, simplifying the clause to "which was released in 1985 for the ZX Spectrum computer." The following sentence is more than sufficient to explain the basic workings of that game. Jappalang (talk) 13:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*I didn't like "various voice talents" and "was an evolution of"
I presume it is "voice talents" that is more of distaste? I changed it to "voice artists". I dropped the phrase with "evolution" and went for the simpler "was developed from" instead. Jappalang (talk)
*Can something be done about "Solid"? Does it mean "robust" or successful?
The source states, "During the real-time strategy craze of the later '90s, publishers could just about guarantee that a solid real-time strategy would sell 100,000 units. On the other hand, a turn-based game needed to be marketed, promoted, and designed to perfection to crest that magical 100,000-unit mark." It could mean a real-time strategy that is either "fun" or well-designed would be a best-seller; however, unsure of which definition it could be, I felt it safer to just quote the word instead. Any help to resolve this would be appreciated if it is an obstacle to comprehension. Jappalang (talk) 13:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*This construction seems awkward; "They found that the game's interface, presenting a viewpoint that looked over the wizard from behind, hindered them from having a clear picture of their characters' surroundings." It looks a little like a camouflaged fused participle to me. How about a simple "which presented a viewpoint"? Perhaps even set off with a pair of emdashes?
From a non-gamer's point of view, this is remarkably well-written and intelligible for a video game article (no offence meant David). I look forward to adding my support.Graham ColmTalk11:52, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support There was a mistake about the size of the gaming market which is now corrected. I remember this game well, it was one of the last i played all the way through. Article seems to capture all the essentials. Very well written! FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reviewers, if you haven't already, could you please mention your thoughts on the images that David mentioned at the beginning of the FAC? Thanks. Karanacs (talk) 15:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I give. I have called back the monsters and retrenched several of them (had to whip some spells out to ensure they leave), refilming the scene for the monster cast. A new smaller-sized image, showing less creatures but zoomed in, is now in place. The tornado image has been replaced by one of Hieronymus Bosch's sketch.[87]Jappalang (talk) 12:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because the Cock Lane ghost, while largely unknown now, was one of a handful of 18th-century scandals which today, almost defy belief. The other two being Mary Toft (who is included but not mentioned here), and Elizabeth Canning (who'll I'll get around to in a bit). User:Malleus Fatuorum has also been a great help with this, and if he desires I'll add him to the nomination. Parrotof Doom21:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Per WP:YEAR, year ranges should include two digits if within the same century (1756–57, not 1756–7).
- Notes and references should have separate headings, rather than both being listed under the same heading (see WP:LAYOUT). Also, "further reading" should be listed separately to references, with its own level 2 heading.
I'm happy to be corrected if wrong but I believe this to be a matter of preference - "Some articles divide this type of information into two or more separate sections; others combine it into a single section." For me, I just prefer a table of contents that is relatively uncluttered. Parrotof Doom00:58, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I missed that point. Very well, since MOS accepts combining notes and references in one section, I'm fine with leaving it like that. I think that "further reading" still needs to be listed under its own heading though. You may want to combine it with "external links" so that the contents remain uncluttered.Wcp07 (talk) 22:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- On the whole, it is a well-written and researched article and I would support its promotion to featured article after the above are addressed. Wcp07 (talk) 00:44, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on sources: Have you looked at some of the recent journal articles on the topic? A search on Google, for example, reveals a number of articles that include references both to the ghost and to Samuel Johnson. I'm not sure they support the view that Johnson was a skeptic (as you suggest in the lead). T. Kselman's 2009 review of Owen Davies's book, The Haunted—A Social History of Ghosts (2007), for example, alludes to the issue. Says Kselman: "Ghosts managed to make the transition to the modern world, as is clear in the story of the 'Cock Lane' ghost, who persuaded Samuel Johnson and a number of prominent clergymen that she was the shade of Frances Lynes, murdered by her lover. But the courts found the 'Cock Lane' ghost to be a fraud, suggesting the contentious nature of ghost belief in the Enlightenment." I'm not sure what you mean by a skeptic, but in this instance, according to both Kselman and Davies, Johnson was persuaded by the phenomenon, at least for some time. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»04:24, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Johnson's own notes, of course, seem to suggest that he did think that the particular demonstration he viewed was a fraud, so perhaps we may need a more nuanced view. E. J. Clery in The Rise of Supernatural Fiction, 1762–1800 (Cambridge University Press, 1999), a book whose first chapter is devoted to the Cock Lane ghost, seems to suggest in my very cursory reading that Johnson did believe in the "real supernatural" and came to the demonstration with an open mind. According to Clery, "James Boswell was intrigued by the reputation for credulity that clung to Johnson in the aftermath of the Cock Lane affair. What had led him to expose himself to public ridicule?" This is contrasted later with Horace Walpole's visit and subsequent account. Says Clery, "It goes without saying that Walpole is a sceptic; there is no hint of the interests that drew Johnson to become involved in the case, not even a shade of hesitation regarding the truth status of the phenomenon." Fowler&fowler«Talk»05:26, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
AFAIK all we have of that night's proceedings are Johnson's notes. Johnson was certainly a believer in spirits, he was a Christian, he had to believe in an afterlife. He was terrified of eternal, silent death, and also terrified of eternal damnation. He did not, however, believe that the Cock Lane ghost was anything but a fraud - in Life of Johnson, John Hawkins implied that Johnson's interest was supernatural, and that "by it he gave countenance to the credulity of the vulgar". Johnson thought that the Cock Lane ghost, if it was an imposture, was the worst kind - that it brought the afterlife into disrepute. Boswell (Grant argues) was "enamoured of the mysterious that he was constantly inveigling Johnson into discussing such matters". Johnson was indeed in a party of sceptics; This was a party that was not investigating the Ghost's accusations, but rather the Ghost itself. Aldrich, it seems to me, was extremely doubtful of Parsons' motives. The Captain had previously carried a gun with him, to shoot at the walls the Ghost was knocking at. John Bishop had a keen, analytical mind, and had previously exposed the lies of William Lauder, who had accused Milton of plagiarism. "A party of sceptics" doesn't mean "A party of non-believers".
Now as for Johnson being a sceptic, I use that word in the sense that the man had an analytical mind - this as much is inferred by one of the quotes in the article, but to double-check I'm going to email Ottava. Parrotof Doom09:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All I meant was that it is clear that some modern references don't think of Johnson as a skeptic. (Clery for one.) It is probably best not to use that word in the lead to describe Johnson unless one clarifies concurrently what one means by it. After all, one of the common meanings of skeptic (Webster's Unabridged) is "a person marked by skepticism regarding religion or religious principles." It doesn't seem, according to Clery, Johnson was that. In fact the word "skeptic" is hardly ever used as a synonym for "analytical." OED draft edition December 2009, has as the 4th meaning: 4. "Occas. used with reference to the etymological sense: A seeker after truth; an inquirer who has not yet arrived at definite convictions." (Johnson was clearly not a skeptic in the original Greek sense either, OED 1.) Fowler&fowler«Talk»12:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're probably correct. I'm going to retain the "ever a sceptic" for now as it fits the quote nicely (until I get more feedback), but I've changed "party of sceptics" to "A commission, whose members included Samuel Johnson, investigated the matter, and it concluded that the supposed haunting was a fraud." I prefer the OED's second meaning of the word, "One who doubts the validity of what claims to be knowledge in some particular department of inquiry (e.g. metaphysics, theology, natural science, etc.); popularly, one who maintains a doubting attitude with reference to some particular question or statement. Also, one who is habitually inclined rather to doubt than to believe any assertion or apparent fact that comes before him; a person of sceptical temper." Parrotof Doom14:13, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a bit more about the feud between Churchill and Johnson, in the legacy section. The source mentions that this is one of the reasons why history sometimes considers Johnson to be credulous, but that might be construed as opinion, and I think to include all of that would be veering a bit off course. Parrotof Doom23:16, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: after some quick checks and tidying up, every image has alt text, is verifiably in the public domain, and uploaded to the appropriate site (albeit one can be moved to Commons). Jappalang (talk) 06:58, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Leaning toSupport:
"In about 1756–57 ..."
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not redundant to have "about" for a date range?
Some sources offer different years, so I've generalised to highlight this. Else if I omitted the 'about', people might think they married in December/January. Parrotof Doom10:17, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"... loaned his landlord £20."
It might be worthwhile to look into how much this is equivalent to modern currency (initially I thought a few thousands since the defaulter was arrested but...). This would lend context to Kent's pursuit of Parsons for "a relatively small sum of money" later (and the £50 fine).
Maybe Johnson's quote in Exposure can be broken down and reworked into a paragraph that succinctly describes the scene with selected quotes from him?
I think Johnson's quote is the source of what everyone writes happened on that night. I'd just be paraphrasing people who have re-written it, and it'd be about as long anyway. Parrotof Doom09:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The mention of Dickens and his work seems to be a throwaway statement; I am not certain what impact this event had on his work. Likewise, the mention of Historic Ghosts and Ghost Hunters (a book I think is fairly obscure) seems scant in context.
Rightto. I did some search and see nothing for Historic Ghosts and Ghost Hunters, whose article is basically something of what your article is doing with the event. As for Dickens... mayhaps there be potential here...!
{About a character from A Christmas CarolNicholas Nickleby}
She [Mrs Nickleby] remembers others' memories, and is haunted by others' hauntings-such as her great-great-grandfather's (possible) haunting by the Cock Lane Ghost (or Thirsty Woman of Tutbury).23
[23] The Cock Lane Ghost also appears in A Tale of Two Cities and Dombey and Son. It is perhaps the archetypal meeting of literary celebrity and the returning dead. See E. J. Clery, The Rise of Supernatural Fiction 1762-1800 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995), 13-32. Mr Mortimer Knag, a 'literary' character, the author of much unpublished work, is described as 'ghostly' (221), and Nicholas works as a ghost-write for Crummies.
In addition to its recourse to hyperbole, the late eighteenth century resembles Dickens's present in its attention to the "messages" of "spirits," the rapping of Dr. Johnson's "Cock-lane ghost" setting the pattern for the modern "spirits of this very year last past (supernaturally deficient in originality)" (TTC, 5). The novel's first reference to revolution materializes as a contrast to such dubious emnations:" Mere messages ... any of the chickens of the Cock-lane brood" (TTC, 5-6).
Edith M. Davies apparently wrote an article entitled "The Cock Lane Ghost" here. It might prove interesting to this article, judging from the focus of the journal.
So it seems there should be material (and fairly respectable and reliable ones too) to establish a context for Dickens in this article and to flesh it (significance) out further. The other book, however, looks like a candidate to be dropped. Jappalang (talk) 12:31, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a couple more Dickens books, along with a quote. I know there's probably something to be said about Dickens and spirits (Christmas Carol etc), but I don't know anything about him, and will therefore have to do a bit of sniffing around to put his interest in the Cock Lane ghost into context. Parrotof Doom14:15, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fear there might be a misunderstanding of my issue here. What I am looking for is not a listing of Dickens's works to show weightage, but a reasoning of why Dickens considered the Cock Lane ghost to be of prominence enough to put it in his works (or a critical commentary of how the event was used in his books). Thus, listing its appearances is not enough. Exposition/analysis of "archetypal meeting" and "late eighteenth century resembles Dickens's present in its attention to the "messages" of "spirits," would be better. Jappalang (talk) 22:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It helps a bit; at least it establishes Dickens's as a man who believes in the supernatural and Cock Lane seems to have left some impression on him (rather than a popularist inclusion or something). I believe more can be done (the Dickensian source hangs in my mind), but I think this is sufficient with the more accessible sources; so supporting now. Jappalang (talk) 02:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If there are no sources, then the issues I raised cannot be addressed—so stricken. As for Johnson's quote and the date range, I am not hard up on them, but I leave unstruck for others to weigh on. The last point (the two book mentions) is more concerning, and I will support after it is addressed. Jappalang (talk) 12:31, 23 December 2009 (UTC)Jappalang (talk) 02:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: 2c. Where, pray tell, is "Stroud?" ; where is "James Clarke & Co." located? ; Are you sure your Penguin is from London and not Harmondsworth? Is this the actual title, "Volume 12 of Cambridge studies in Romanticism " or is the title "C. s. in Rom." and the volume is 12? Date consistency problem with ISO: 1838–39. 39th month? Consider fixing by going non ISO with "retrieved 2009-12-21" Nice citation of pre 19th century publication data!
Stroud is at Stroud, the same as London is at London, or Cambridge is at Cambridge. I've added a location for James Clarke & Co. The Penguin book - I don't know, I don't own the book. I don't consider it even slightly important. No, the actual title is not "volume 12 xxx" which is why I've used the work field. The book is as titled and is part of a series, as also stated. There isn't a date consistency problem with 1838-39, nobody will assume that 39 means month, so that does not need fixing. Parrotof Doom11:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Extensive comment regarding price series over time. CPI is not the indicator to use here. Loans are not part of the consumption bundle of an unskilled working class household which is the base measure of CPI. Measuring Worth has this explained quite nicely under which measure to use. A CPI can't reflect the decision to loan monies, as loans are not part of the standardised working class consumption bundle that goes into a price series... Especially not at the massive sum of £20 in the 1700s. "if you are wondering how "affordable" this would be to the average person, use the GDP per capita, or a wage or average earnings index. For the US, we have an index of unskilled wage and for the UK we have an index of average earnings." ("Which indicator," Measuring Worth) 1759 £20 => 2008 (last available year) ~£29000 using average earnings. This is a far better indicator of the massiveness of a £20 loan; Its also a far better immediate class indicator of the status of a usurer in the mid 18th century in the UK. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've got Wage price series as a stub. This was fairly specific to the issue of wage / price series though which was the first issue. Have to think about rename and expand if we need it to deal with all historical time series. "Value time series" would be controversial, as value is a measure specific to Political Economy but not current economics. "Price time series" might incorrectly focus it on retail or consumer prices, and leave out wages, GDP, earnings, etc. It came up on Neville Chamberlain's second FAC because of the issue of measuring (apparently unrealised losses of) capital over time. Perhaps I should write it out of Measuring Worth's available series first, explaining the series utility according to MW's own explanations, then expand into their series specific essays, then finally use their sources from their lit reviews. But just quickly, given that this is about non-consumption spending outside of capitalised money, average earnings is the better series than CPI. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In your judgement. We'll just have to wait for your reliably sourced conclusions. To be clear, I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I've just no tolerance for bullshit. --MalleusFatuorum02:51, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm well aware of that, but your solution to this problem, which seems to be to omit any conversions at all, is less than helpful to a reader. --MalleusFatuorum11:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'm not about to disagree with you because you obviously have a greater interest in these matters than I do. The figure is only there as a rough guide - it doesn't have to be exact, but I want a figure in there nonetheless. It just has to give people a general idea of what £20 was worth. So, I checked the value of £20 here, and it gave me:
In 2007, £20 0s 0d from 1760 is worth £2,817.02 using the retail price index. £27,382.55 using average earnings.
I'm not going to oppose over this, but the linking of common terms like inn and and post office will get this article on Tony1's list of ridiculous links.
Fanny meanwhile went to stay with her brother, at Lynham This is presumably another brother, which might be better anchored with his name.
Is it just cheekiness that makes you name a section "Fanny" in a Cock Lane article?
I don't know what you mean...whistles... I did however consider naming the "Haunting" section as "Scratching Fanny". If that doesn't translate well in the US, you should know that Fanny means something else entirely in the UK... Parrotof Doom01:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ignorant American that I am, I don't know the difference between 3 guineas and 20 pounds.
Guinea is linked, there was a price comparison in the article but its gone, I don't know who removed it. Look above, there's a discussion on this very issue. Parrotof Doom01:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
her sister Ann Lynes (who lived at Pall Mall) attended the funeral, which took place at St John's. If Pall Mall and St. John's has some significance, it is not readily apparent what it is. Is it really necessary?
No connection really, it was to highlight that her sister lived in London and not Norfolk (which is some distance away). I've clarified that. Parrotof Doom01:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In all, an interesting article. Suggestions are just that. Do what you wish with them. Let me know if you have any questions. --Moni3 (talk) 00:43, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, with comments:
William Kent, a usurer from Norfolk, Richard Parsons, a parish clerk, and his daughter Elizabeth. This sentence is ambiguous as it is not clear whose daughter Elizabeth was.
The story became a focus of controversy between the Methodist and Anglican churches, and is frequently referenced in contemporary literature. This sentence is too vague (even for the lead).
He refused, and following a brief argument, the supporters left. Who were those supporters?
Elizabeth his wife to be imprisoned one year; Was the wife of Mr. Parsons also Elizabeth? (So there were three Elizabeths!) If she was, this should be mentioned at the beginning of the article to avoid a later confusion.
I am actually interested in the wooden board used by Elizabeth to make sounds. It is mentioned only briefly in the article (Her maids then witnessed Elizabeth concealing on her person a small piece of wood, 6 by 4 inches (150 by 100 mm), and informed the investigators.). Can more information be provided? Why, for instance, she was able to conceal it for such a long time?
Thanks DCGeist. One of the most thorough media reviews I've seen. I tightened up the US cover a bit. Great job. RB88 (T) 17:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by comment Comments Support by PL290 (media licensing and cites not checked). Looks good on a quick glance. My impression is that this This is a comprehensive article and the prose is sound. I hope to find time to look more closely and will add further comments if possible.
There are two lone subsections. In both cases the significant body of text preceding the "lone" subsection should acquire its own subheading.
"With support from personal "guru" JP Bowerstock" - this use of "guru" in quotes hints at something without making it explicit, and hence is not really encyclopedic.
"the three songs created were scrapped and were not used on Is This It." - somewhat tautological (since, if the songs were scrapped, they could not have been used) though I think I see the point intended; perhaps this could be recast along the lines of "the three songs originally created for Is This It were scrapped".
"and formed a good collaborating team with the producer." - again somewhat tautological combination of "collaborating" with "team" - perhaps "a good collaborative relationship".
"both parties organized a listening session with the musical material Hammond, Jr. and Casablancas had brought" - it seems to me that unless I missed one, there is only one Hammond, and so once Hammond, Jr. has been introduced, "Hammond" would suffice and be clearer for the remainder of the article.
"The transfer from the two loud guitars and the rumble of the bass picked up by the drum kit microphones was not eliminated on the advice of Moretti" - but rather, eliminated for another reason? Comma after eliminated would do it.
"The record was streamed on Australian websites by the band's distributor BMG and remained available to listen even after the CD release" - the streamed record did not listen - perhaps available to listen "to", or just available, etc.
"The Japanese release date of August 22 occurred after two one-off shows [...] in the country" - the word "occurred" here seems to imply a chance happening and hence loses the intended point that it was (I assume) deliberately timed to follow the shows. Was it deliberate timing?
"Moretti has called it a "horrible coincidence" that the band members deeply regret" - coming after "I found something even cooler" merely not surfacing in time to use different artwork, it's left unclear exactly what is "horrible" and "deeply regretted" about the foregoing sequence of events.
""Is This It" is The Strokes' closest attempt to a ballad." - it just me, or is there a persuasive but non-grammatical blurring of "closest attempt" with "closest to a ballad"?
"an upbeat, singalong chorus that is appended by a technically difficult guitar solo" - I don't think you can use "appended" like that! One thing is appended to another. Perhaps recast or use another word.
"as well as danceable drumming patterns that evoke the sound of primitive 1980s drum machines" - danceable is somewhat subjective and the sentence appears to work well without it. Consider removing or rephrasing to be more encyclopedic.
"In 2009, Is This It was named as the best record of the 2000s by NME [...], and at number two, behind Radiohead's Kid A, by Rolling Stone" - again, "ranked" etc. rather than "named" seems to fit what Rolling Stone did
In the lead, it would flow better if you discussed the making of the albu first before listing its chart positions.
It's come up before, but I use WP:LEAD always: "The first paragraph of the introductory text needs to unambiguously define the topic for the reader, without being overly specific. It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered, by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it. If appropriate, it should give the location and time context. Also, it must establish the boundaries of the content of the article."RB88 (T) 23:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I also find it odd that the cover art change is mentioned after the album release, commercial success, and world tour.
Done in conjunction with your packaging split comment. The staggered release means a bit of disjunct, but in the current order it flows well, i.e. Packaging and then Content.
Is "hyped" the best NPOV word choice here. Personally I'd say it was "hyped", but I'm not sure that's the best word to use for Wiki purposes.
Ok, article body now. The "Origins" section contains far too much setup. Keep what's necessary for context and move the rest (details like band members meeting when they were schoolboys, family members introducing them to certain bands) to The Strokes. i'd say more or else you could integrate parts of the first paragraph into the second and go with that.
I removed some padding but I disagree with the general sentiment. I think it's a nice, measured intro on how they got to the studio, especially considering it's a debut album and not a second or third done whilst on tour in two years. Debut albums tend to be the "life albums", so a bit of history and formative stages is required. Trust me there was a lot more I could have included. RB88 (T) 23:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the "Studio Sessions" section, you need to clarify the band's relationship with Rough Trade after they signed to RCA. Did they leave the label? Were they signed to Rough Trade in one country and RCA in another?
The sentence "The studio is located in a basement with poor lighting; candles were often used during recording" is a bit choppy. How about "Because the studio was located in a basement with poor lighting, candles were often used during recording"?
"To show the tones and energy they liked". Are you sure the source means "tone" as in intervals on a music scale? Judging by the context of the sentence is seems like they might mean "tone" as in "mood". You might be better off just delinking the word.
I'm noticing quite a bit of passive voice. Example: "During six weeks of exhaustive sessions, the emphasis was placed on The Strokes' gritty sound". Who placed the emphasis? Try and cut down as much as possible.
"Raphael mixed as he went along to maintain control of the record until the final mastering stage and to show The Strokes a final product as soon as the band finished performing a track" Seems like it coud use some commas.
Why is mentioning that the band revealed the tracklisting on May 15 noteworthy?
Along those same lines: "'Hard to Explain' was named as the album's first single with a release date of June 25 to coincide with the tour". We're not a news site; we don't need to indicate every instance when things were announced. We need to know when they happened. Simply state that "Hard to Explain" was released in June as the album's first single.
For both above: It's the promotion section. It essentially has to show how the band and label created marketing and excitement for the album release and a basic timeframe with a few dates is necessary to give a more accurate perspective. Both also flow well with the tour comment. RB88 (T) 23:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Moretti suffered an awkward fall". Is there such as thing as an unawkward fall?
Well, you could fall quite simply on your backside without much fuss or you could fall on top of your wrist or without using your arms in a reflex motion, the last two which I would qualify as "awkward". RB88 (T) 23:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Recommend splitting off "Packaging" into its own section; it comes off as a non sequitor as a subsection of "Release". Alternatively, given the cover image change was such a big deal, possibly merge/integrate the information together with the rest of the "Release" section.
Any reason "Lyrics" are above "Composition"? Why not just integrate the two (particular since you go down the tracklisting when discussing the songs)?
It's more of a personal preference really. I also like splitting them for a nicer article and for the reader to specifically understand both facets separately. RB88 (T) 23:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"It had notable success in Scandinavia" Does the source say that? You could do without it and not harm the sentence at all.
"The record was listed at number 71 on the UK Albums Chart for 2001". I assume you mean the year-end chart? Also, it's awkward that the Scandinavia info is in between two sentences about the album's success in the UK.
"In contrast, Jon Monks of Stylus gave the album a rating of C+, one of the lowest that it received". That last part isn't necessary. People can determine that themselves if they want to.
Regarding the influence section: any chance you can find information about bands directly citing the record as an influence?
No luck here. I doubt any band of the last decade would cite an album released in 2001 for fear of being called copyists and losing street cred. RB88 (T) 23:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"--two places higher than the The Velvet Underground's debut LP The Velvet Underground & Nico—" Does the source cited make a big deal out of this? If not, throw it out.
Well, considering earlier in the article we've talked about influences and transcending them, it seems a nice bit of information. Also to break the monotony of just listing lists. RB88 (T) 23:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's undue emphasis. After all, you mention other influences on the band, but aren't noting how Is This It outranked those records (which you shouldn't, by the way). WesleyDodds (talk) 06:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Same thing with the NME and Rolling Stone decade lists. I'm sure it outranked a slew of other notable albums, but it's not important to draw attention to it.
I like to include the second placed album it beat or the first placed album it was beaten by. It brightens up the listing lists process and also gives a perspective about the list and the pulication. RB88 (T) 23:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I think "Release history" sections are worthless and you certainly aren't obligated to have one. However, if you do insist on having one, you should shore up the references. I don't necessary know how catalog numbers work, but those numbers listed are only part of the numbers I see in certain refs. Also, I'm not quite sure all those refs specifically state that that catalog number was specifically released for that region. Once again, double check the sources and weed out what isn't soundly supported. Or just chuck the whole thing and do without it.
Ok, here's the one big problem the article currently has that needs to be immediately addressed. For the UK chart positions, you cite ""UK Top 40 Hit Database". The Official UK Charts Company / EveryHit. http://www.everyhit.com/." Every Hit is in no way affiliated with the official UK charts. It's run by some guy who owns a lot of singles; see the About page on the website. That's not the sort of source you want to rely on, particularly when you can ring up User:JD554 and ask him to cite the chart positions from his far more verifiability policy-friendly UK chart books (he has one that goes up to 2006, I believe). He's always willing to help out with that sort of thing, so it shouldn't be much of a bother to address this point.
Well, I think it's transcended the "fansite" tag when it was used in Parliament. But I've still got the British charts book from Talking Heads (and a whole lot of fines, too). It's now up. RB88 (T) 01:17, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from the last item, there's no major outstanding problems. Overall, I am pleased with the quality of the article. Address these comments and I'll be ready to support the article's nomination. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments— FYI, I like this album a lot. Reviewing the lead for now:
"first released on July 30, 2001 in Australia by BMG, a distributor acting on behalf of RCA Records, the band's primary label"—seems like too much (unimportant) information. I suggest removing all mention of the record labels there, and moving the release date to the first sentence: "Is This It is the debut studio album by American indie rock band The Strokes, released in July 2001." The 2002 reissue bit can go as well. Instead, mention how RCA released the thing with a different tracklisting ('cause of 9/11) and album cover a few months after the Rough Trade version (if necessary).
"It is considered a zeitgeist-defining moment for the musical landscape of the 2000s"—What is "It" here? A little vague: do you refer to the album or the release of the album? Also, since you discuss the legacy in the third paragraph, why not move the sentence there?
DONE. It was added at PR, especially because WP:LEAD says "Also, it must establish the boundaries of the content of the article."RB88 (T) 08:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"western English-speaking world" is very vague. Check out its article, did the album go platinum in all those countries?!
Can't put my finger on it, but the second paragraph reads very choppily to me. Especially "details young life and encounters in cities like New York". I also don't see why the three singles need to be mentioned there. Songs like the title track and "The Modern Age" also revolve around the same themes. (I have gone ahead and tweaked the second paragraph)
Well, you've sorted it out yourself and I tidied up.
You haven't exactly described why the record is considered so influential in the thing. Namely, the whole "Return to Rock" thing The Strokes championed along with The White Stripes; without this The Libertines, Franz Ferdinand and Arctic Monkeys probably wouldn't have flourished so much. (I prefer you give specific info like this rather vague statements about it being zeitgeist-defining)—indopug (talk) 07:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Zeitgeist-defining" is not vague. For one, it was specifically used by The Guardian and covers everything, from NYC's scene, music, attire etc which are mentioned by all the other sources. Specifying just the Return to Rock bands would not be summative in the lead and also incorrect. It did much more than that, including changing the music industry and pop music. RB88 (T) 08:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have a Spin book that can possibly add to this, given there's a chapter on the "Return of Rock" (my god, isn't that pretentious?) in it. I'll need to double-check it. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:13, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
TBH, I think I've covered all bases with regards to Legacy, but it'd be nice to add Spin's "Return to Rock" phrase as a tying sentence. RB88 (T) 14:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You use only a single source when it comes to discussing the lyrics (the Roach book). Surely this section can be expanded considering how acclaimed and written-about Casablancas' lyrics were?—indopug (talk) 22:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's yer lot I'm afraid. All interviews and biopics focused on image rather than content. If it wasn't for the SOS article, I think I would have struggled for the recording info as well. Like for the whole article (and all my articles), searched Google Archives, music publications (not just the obvious ones), fansites, and the relevant books. If you can find me a source about lyrics, I'd be shocked. At one point, I was thinking of merging Content into Studio sessions due to its thinness. Thank God for the bits of info from Roach. RB88 (T) 00:34, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What about the sources you've used in the article? For example, the Rolling Stone review quotes a lot of the lyrics, and tries to grapple what Casablancas is trying to say. Similarly, you might find snippets in the all the reviews/interviews. You could also use the RS review for general descriptions of the band's music—"The Strokes are obsessed with rhythm, and at times their approach is more like that of a soul or funk band than a rock band: Each player, even the drummer, pushes at the melody from a different rhythmic angle until there are no more angles left to explore. Albert Hammond Jr. and Nick Valensi's interlocking, incessant rhythm-guitar parts free bassist Nikolai Fraiture to sweeten songs such as "Someday," "Last Nite" and the title track with graceful, Motown-like countermelodies."—indopug (talk) 05:59, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I argue that reviews shouldn't be used for general descriptions of the band's music, because reviews aren't held to the same criteria as a interviewer or someone writing an article. The point of a review is to provide critical opinion, and thus they should be relegated to the critical reception section. That reminds me: I noticed there was something from the legacy section pulled from a PopMatters concert review. You should junk that, because the writer is merely setting up his review, and the review is not an objective look at the band's legacy. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is exactly why I didn't use reviews. I knew you were gonna pipe in at some point with that. As for the PopMatters thing, I disagree. "The review is not an objective look at the band's legacy" makes no sense. All attributed quotes in Legacy are subjective points of view, often from subjective lists. It doesn't matter if it's a concert review because it doesn't mean what he wrote or elements of it are not true. If you read the review, the first half is totally historical and about the New York scene. So, historical and his opinion, and considering he works for a notable and reliable source, it merits inclusion.RB88 (T) 11:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RE: the PopMatters review. It's the opener for a review about a concert performance from 2006 (a performance completely unrelated to the album), which is meant purely as editorial, not hardcore journalism. This is a concert review, not an article about the legacy of Is This It. It's inappropriate to quote this particular review for this purpose. You have plenty of other more appropriate sources in that same section that directly address the topic at hand, anyways. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:16, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<-- All that I've read above is your personal, subjective decision about biopics, what constitutes one, and the differences in journalism. The fact of the matter is that PopMatters and its writers and content fulfil both WP:N and WP:R. This is what he wrote in the first historical part of the concert review:
"For those steeped in the band-a-minute scene of present-day New York, it's easy to forget that, at the turn-of-the-century, not only did the local scene not compare to today's, but that there wasn't really a scene at all. Circa 2000, NYC was a pretty musically barren place to be - a city with plenty of rock n' roll history, but very little in the way of a present. And then, with an unassuming 11-track debut album, five city kids in thrift-store clothes came along and changed everything. Since the release of Is This It?, New York has not only returned to its glory as a hotspot for cutting-edge music, but has actually been elevated once more to a prime focus of international attention.What the Strokes did, however, goes hand in hand with how they did it. It wasn't by reinventing what it means to be from NYC that the quintet gained the spotlight, but rather by reminding us what it always meant. By capturing the essence of precursors like the Velvet Underground, the Ramones, Blondie, and Television and reconstituting it for a new generation, the band became the sole contemporary heir to the very same lineage that put the city on the rock map in the first place. And now, just a few short years later, with the band members still not even out of their 20s, the Strokes stand as the fathers (or at least godfathers) to modern New York music, with everyone from Brooklyn to London citing them as an influence. So where does that leave an essentially young band that, just five years on, is already viewed as the established order, or the soon-to-be old guard?"
And this what I wrote: Doug Levy of PopMatters suggests that, through Is This It, The Strokes created New York City's post-millennial music scene and returned it to a cutting-edge glory, "with everyone from Brooklyn to London citing them as an influence".
I don't see any problem whatsoever with sourcing apart from your personal opinion about what constitutes journalism. RB88 (T) 21:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a review about Is This It. This is a review about a show five years after the album came out, with the author using his opinion on the record's impact to set up the review. The piece as a whole is not directly about the album and shouldn't be treated as authoritative, because that's not the point of the piece. This is like quoting the first paragraph of a review for a concert promoting Kid A to describe the legacy of The Bends. It's especially striking if you compare it to the other references in the section. There's best-of album list, best-of album list, best-of album list . . . and then an excerpt from a concert review from years later. You shouldn't have to rely on a concert review that has nothing directly to do with the album for statements about the album's impact. Find something more relevant. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:37, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Composition: I notice that although you do track-by-track analysis of the music, you are not highlighting the overall trends on the album. If you don't want to use reviews per Wesley, there is this CMJ article I found in Google Books: here. In particular, Valensi's quote: "there's no bullshit, no gimmicks, no tricks to try to get you to like the song. We don't put in a guitar solo just to have one." Also, CMJ's description "nervous energy pop with a romantic slouch" seems apt (obviously, there might more statements in the sources you have already used).
If you say most of the sources concentrate on their 'image', we probably should devote more to their fashion-sense as well. I just see "skinny jeans and guitars" . . .
Well, the image has to be in relation to their and THIS album's influence as it is in the Legacy section. It can't just be about them. Remember that it is an article about the album, not the band. As I've said above, I think I've covered all bases in terms of summation and comprehensiveness there: music, attire, industry. RB88 (T) 11:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's come up before. TBH, I think readability and presentation often get neglected on Wikipedia. Yes, it is simple but the alternative is just a whole lot of quote marks, dashes, and numbers that will make reader's brains vomit. The article is neater this way. RB88 (T) 11:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I've come a bit late after a request, and it looks like the problems I found have been brought up and addressed by others already. The article looks very good, and I support the nomination. Timmeh02:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am close to supporting, but have a few final quibbles—
you continue to use "English-speaking world" even though it is such a vague descriptor (per its own article, it covers so many countries. The Strokes didn't revolutionise all those markets).
while I agree that Is This It did influence many bands, and started some hip fashion trends, I am not so sure it was "a zeitgeist-defining moment for the musical landscape of the 2000s", or why "record is considered crucial in the development ... of the post-millennial music industry in the English-speaking world". The Legacy section only explains bands influenced by the album, and musical styles that became popular because of it. This does not translate to changing the music industry itself. As an alternative, could you add a quote in the lead instead that neatly sums up its influence? At the same time, it wouldn't like Wikipedia itself is stating that the album changed the music industry; it is an opinion that we would be attributing to somebody else.
That's why I said "it is considered". The lead is meant to summarise the text and I'd rather not add a quote. I did tone it down a bit however. I think influencing bands, scenes, trends, and charts is clearly influencing the music industry. Plus there's a direct quote from the Boston Herald about it. It's not just about about band influence the Legacy section. RB88 (T) 11:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"After signing with RCA, The Strokes received full artistic control from the company." and "The producer and the band were given complete control only when Casablancas persuaded the delegate..."—contradiction?
"Raphael mixed as he went along to maintain control of the record until the final mastering stage, and to show The Strokes a final product as soon as the band finished performing a track"—needs a bit of a rewrite 'cause I needed to read it a couple of times to let the meaning of the sentence sink in.
Could you modify the second paragraph of Critical reception so that it doesn't mention that The Strokes were influenced by the Velvets and Television thrice.
"extremely favorable"—'extremely' generally has negative connotations, doesn't it? I'd much prefer a blander term like 'very'.
I've never heard the argument that an adverb like "extremely" inherently has positive or negative connotations. It depends what follows it as is the case with adverbs. I think it's fine. I use very/highly for over 80s on Metacritic and extremely for 90+. RB88 (T) 22:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
NME blog piece that says the album is overrated and sucks, and has an awful legacy. Worthy of usage? (you do use one that calls it album of the decade)
NME's consensus as a publication is that this is the next best thing since sliced bread. That's a minor view within the publication. Also, the section is called Legacy and not Non-legacy. The wide consensus is also extremely favourable. Plus, I even squeezed in the negative comments about encouraging bad copyists. RB88 (T) 22:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The July and August 2001 cover art"—not very clear what you are referring to here, esp. confusing since you bring dates into the picture. How about just call it the "cover art", and call the other one the "US cover"?—indopug (talk) 19:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I get the point, but it's the lesser of all evils. Anything else (I don't even know how to replace it properly) would confuse the reader, mess the flow, and ruin the timeframe. I think it's OK especially coming straight after the Release dates a paragraph before. RB88 (T) 22:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Took you long enough. Cheers. If Wes doesn't support, I'm going round his house and smashing his virtual knees in. He'll be in bits (geddit?). I'll get my coat. RB88 (T) 22:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Overlinked
Why is "produced" linked? Is "singles" an uncommon word? Who doesn't know what a "drum kit" is? "Amplifiers"? Under "Personnel", I can't see much that needs linking: hand up who doesn't know what a guitar is, or drums, or photography? Several items are linked for the second time. Tony(talk)11:23, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect Tony, I don't think it's overlinked. I went through it just now for the 1786th time. Producer and amplifier are fairly technical words or that need a better understanding by non-experts. Things like singles and drum kit may be more common, but I do write my articles for the whole spectrum of hermits to cognoscenti and the linked pages have fairly music-specific text. (A time springs to mind when someone said to link DJ cos he didn't know what they did!) As for Personnel, the convention for albums is to link the materials (and even the names sometimes) for reader ease. But I'm willing to delink them if you're that bothered. RB88 (T) 13:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The only outstanding issue to me is that when I checked the references upon my initial review, it didn't seem like some details in the Release History section were supported by the references. However, as I'm currently stuck using a shoddy public computer, it's a bit of a hassle to load more page windows to double check the refs. Can others take a look at the section? WesleyDodds (talk) 08:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And as I said before, all cites support the codes even if you cross reference them. It's very easy, just click through. I don't understand what's so hard. (But maybe these straws are warming materials in the winter.) The European one you mentioned on my talk page is from Ultratop, the Belgian body, which has the Pan-European chart rankings next to the codes. But, I also found a nice shiny EU flag source to keep you happy. See, same code!. RB88 (T) 15:43, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The cites are not about the dates. I don't think dates need that in the same way as track listing doesn't. It just happens/exists. Codes however are more specific and need refs (although you could argue the same there). I'm just thorough and like to source them. RB88 (T) 05:07, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to be thorough, cite everything in the table. Also, the catalogue code would be listed on the album itself (therefore being a self-reference item like a tracklist), but the full release date wouldn't (at most you get a year on the copyright notice; I don't think I've ever seen a full release date on album packaging). Thus the latter needs an inline citation more than the former. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I took it all out. I can't be arsed with this anymore. Major markets are covered in prose anyway. I know you've been campaigning to have those lists removed everywhere and now you got it. Well done. So release the straws and support. I'm done on my side. RB88 (T) 19:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I love you too. Moving on, I mentioned above, "In the 'Studio Sessions' section, you need to clarify the band's relationship with Rough Trade after they signed to RCA. Did they leave the label? Were they signed to Rough Trade in one country and RCA in another?" I reread the article section and it implies that the group moved from Rough Trade to RCA, but then the release section has Geoff Travis talking about the Australian release. And we know that the album came out in the UK on Rough Trade. Is there further information to clarify the band's label situation? For example, when it first got a record deal, Oasis was signed worldwide with Epic Records, expect for the UK, where they were signed to Creation as part of their contract agreement. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added one sentence that may need tweaking, so refs won't be left hanging in mid-air. There's an awful lot of linking in there ... do we really need links to The New York Times, guitar, and other common terms? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I tidied it up a bit. I'm surprised you consider The New York Times an overlink. Organisations always have to be linked. Also as I mentioned above, the Personnel section follows Wikipedia:Albums#Personnel which requires linking for all materials, regardless of link repetition or common words. I don't think the article is overlinked. I've gone through it tons of times. RB88 (T) 23:00, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because all the suggestions made in the peer review have been implemented. I believe the article now meets all the FA criteria. Neelix (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No dab links, but refs 62, 68, and 126 have dead external links. Ref 18 is also dead, but uses an archived page for the "work" param—I think you meant to make that the main url, not the "work" url, because without the archive.org stuff it is exactly the same.
All images (and there's a lot—I expect image review to take up some time here) have alt text. For the map of The Gambia with two red dots, clarify that the dots are in the west and center of The Gambia (either in the alt or the prose). The Geography map doesn't have this problem because the dot location is effectively stated in the lead.
Check the ref dates: most appear to be Month Day, Year but a few are ISO style and there's even French dates ("Retrieved 8 juin 2008"). Pick one style. (added on 21:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC))
I have dealt with all the problems presented by an odd name above except one. I have restored the "work" url for ref 18 and replaced the main url with the archived page. I have also clarified the alt for the map of The Gambia to specify the location of the two dots. The ref dates are now all formatted Month Day, Year. The only problem I'm not sure how to deal with is the three dead external links. How should I fix this problem? Neelix (talk) 21:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, dates look consistent Month Day, Year now. I can't find the dead links in Google cache or the Wayback. Remove them if they're just giving trivial facts; keep them and search around for another source for the cited facts if they're more important. --anoddname06:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have switched ref 62 from a reference to the article online to a reference to the article in print. The external link for ref 68 has been switched to a link to an archived version of the page. The article referred to in ref 126 is also found on another website, so I switched the link. There should be no more dead external links in the article. Neelix (talk) 19:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There were some typos, and other infelicities, and the style of English varied between BE and AE (eg "colourful", but all units in meters, not metres. Since it's West Africa, I've tried to standardise as BE. I've made these changes, please check
Damn, you're a Canadian - I should have realised, since I went to Nova Scotia in September. I still think BE is more appropriate, but if you want to restore CE, that's not an issue. Jimfbleak - talk to me?08:07, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Metric units need imperial conversions to help the poor old yanks also nautical miles to metric
mudflats are exposed so that boats with keels can easily dock. When arriving at Carabane, the Joola had to stop about 500 m north of the village in 8 to 10 m of water. isn't this contradictory?
It's stretching things a bit to call the MacDonald's birding trip an ornithological survey, but the birds are typical of the area, and in my Birds of The Gambia and Senegal, so I don't think the facts are challengeable, and I'm happy to let the ref stand Jimfbleak - talk to me?08:21, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly with the French fish ref, I appreciate how difficult it is to get cast iron sources, and I would support you if the refs are challenged, since the content is clearly correct. Jimfbleak - talk to me?08:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for fixing the typos, Jim! I'm quite alright with using British English in the article considering the part of the world being addressed; it was simply more natural for me to write it in Canadian English. I have converted all the remaining measurements so that both metric and imperial are displayed, including the one reference to nautical miles.
The two sentences about boats arriving at the island are not intended to state contradictory things. The first sentence states that it is easy for boats to dock on the island because their keels shift into the exposed mudflats, allowing them to dock securely (ie. there are no exposed rocks to damage the bottom of the boats). The second sentence states that the Joola had to stop about 500 m north of the village because the water surrounding the island is so shallow (ie. the mudflats are relatively close to the surface of the water). Boats can easily dock at the island, but not very close to the island. Do you feel the explanation of this in the article needs to be clarified? Neelix (talk) 16:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no sailor and I assumed mudflats would be a hindrance, not a help, so perhaps clarification would be good; any way, I'm happy to
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Note I did not check the reliability of the non-English sources. Ealdgyth - Talk15:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Neither the two references linking to Wikipedia articles nor the one linking to an image in the Commons was intended to contain citation information, just helpful links; I was not attempting to suggest that any information in the article was sourced by those references. Nonetheless, I have removed all three references. I have also removed all the "English" tags on the English source references in the article and I have added the "French" tag to ref 34. As for http://www.camacdonald.com/birding/tripreports/Senegal98.html, I don't know what to state as a publisher because the report was never published in print. It was written by Artur Degollada i Soler on July 14, 1998 with the title Lista de las aves observadas en Senegal and is presented to the English-speaking world online by Tina MacDonald. I do not believe that published ornithological studies of the island exist, so this is the most reliable information which is available about birds in Carabane. Neelix (talk) 19:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would support the inclusion of the MacDonald reference. I have a reliable source, the standard text The Birds of The Gambia and Senegal, which establishes that the listed birds are present in the wider Casamance area, and makes it very likely that the listed source is correct in terms of content. Unless you are challenging the content, I would let the ref stand. Alternatively, I could add the book ref as well, in a supporting role. The worst case scenario, if you are adamant on this, would be to remove An ornithological study in 1998 discovered the following species on the island and replace with The following birds are typical of the Casamance area, plus the book ref. However, this seems a retrograde step, diluting the information specific to the island despite the near certainty that it is actually correct Jimfbleak - talk to me?07:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to her website, Tina MacDonald is a novice birder who has done extensive research and study but has not received formal education in ornithology. Her website, which hosts a large number of unpublished ornithological surveys, is cited on the websites of the University of Richmond, the Southeastern Arizona Bird Observatory, the Information Security Group, and the National Audubon Society. Intute says that MacDonald's "outstanding site offers a comprehensive guide to bird watching hotspots around the world." MacDonald does not have a degree in ornithology, however her website is considered credible by established organizations. Neelix (talk) 15:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's do this then, throw up the book cite on top of the MacDonald, and we'll consider it close enough for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk15:54, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you referring to your second, third, and fourth bullets? If so, I took care of them as soon as you mentioned them; my explanation of how I did so is contained in my first response here. Neelix (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments - I am copyediting the article as I go through, as the prose can do with some reworking. Please revert any changes which inadvertently change the meaning. I will post queries below: Casliber (talk·contribs) 03:16, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After years of development and community outreach, Carabane is now experiencing a series of trials. - I don't get this, I suspect it doesn't mean legal trials, so what is it referring to?
References come at the end of sentences or clauses (i.e. after a full stop or comma)
Oysters are also a source of income, and Carabane is located in the center of the collection zone, which is one of the reasons why boats formerly called at the island. At one point, oysters were easily transported from Carabane to Dakar, where they were either sold by the pickers themselves or by hawkers. - do the previous refs ref this as well?
Along with the mangrove degradation, the civil unrest, and the inadequate fishery regulation, Casamance has had to deal with the closure of a major industrial complex in Ziguinchor in 2003 which employed more than 2000 people. - does the previous ref (115) reference this as well?
They return to help their parents in the rice fields and participate in religious ceremonies during the dry season, but they tend to settle off the island permanently. - does the previous ref (117) reference this as well?
French anthropologist Louis-Vincent Thomas posed the question of whether Carabane should be saved - is this overly dramatic? Would "preserved" be more appropriate in this sentence and the next?
Looks okay otherwise. Look forward to supporting soon. Might have another look at copyediting. Prose is now better but a few minor improvements might be out there. Casliber (talk·contribs) 03:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the copyediting, Casliber. Here are my responses to your questions:
After years of development and community outreach, Carabane is now experiencing a series of trials. - The word "trials" is used to refer to the social struggles the village has been facing: the declining population, the Casamance Conflict, the sinking of the Joola, etc. Can you think of a way of making this clearer?
Oysters are also a source of income, and Carabane is located in the center of the collection zone, which is one of the reasons why boats formerly called at the island. At one point, oysters were easily transported from Carabane to Dakar, where they were either sold by the pickers themselves or by hawkers. - Ref 113 is the source for this information.
Along with the mangrove degradation, the civil unrest, and the inadequate fishery regulation, Casamance has had to deal with the closure of a major industrial complex in Ziguinchor in 2003 which employed more than 2000 people. - Yes, ref 115 is the source for this information.
They return to help their parents in the rice fields and participate in religious ceremonies during the dry season, but they tend to settle off the island permanently. - Yes, ref 117 is the source for this information
French anthropologist Louis-Vincent Thomas posed the question of whether Carabane should be saved - A direct translation of the title of Thomas's article is "Is it necessary to save Carabane?" Similarly, a direct translation of Diatta's article is "Who is to save Diogué-Nikine-Carabane?" The questions they pose are dramatic, but I suppose we can tone them down. Neelix (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe all the citations are now located after full stops. As for your first bullet, what do you think of changing the word 'trials' to 'difficulties'? Neelix (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how to fix this problem. Going here, I can see the image listed and licensed by Creative Commons, but no original author is given on the website. What should be done? Neelix (talk) 18:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the images are tiny. Take the Animism one: not good res, I admit, but the details are impossible to make out. It's unfair to those with a slow connection, who have a hard time opening the image; for everyone else, it's plain irritating. Why the unreadable customs table? Please put a table in the main text (or a summary or sample from it), since it would have to be rather large to make sense to us. The is far to small to read. The caption for "solar lighting": which wide roads? Surely they're not all like that. And the impression is that solar lighting is used for roads all over the country ... I doubt it. Kayendo: too small. Two paddy-type pics, both tiny. Remove one and make it a little larger. Tony(talk)13:50, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the link to island and retargeted the links to the World Wars so that they now direct to the West African theatres. I have removed the hypens in the two instances of "widely-held." I have enlarged the Animism image and removed the French customs table; if there are too many images on the article, this one seems to be the least important. I have also removed the image of the checkerboard-like paddy fields and enlarged the image of the levees protecting the paddy fields. As for the caption on the solar lighting image, the information is correct as is. The only roads on the island are far wider than need be because they were constructed for use by vehicles which never arrived. All the roads on the island employ solar lighting. There is no indication that this is true off the island in other parts of Senegal; I'm not sure how a user would get that impression. Nonetheless, I'm open to suggestions about how to make the wording less ambiguous. I feel that the remaining links and images are appropriate, however I would be willing to remove any which others deem superfluous. Neelix (talk) 15:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; much better. But why is "tax" linked? We know what that means. This is not Wiktionary. Readers are expected to know the language. Why "prerogatives"? They simply make it much less likely that readers will click on "law enforcement", which does go to a specific target: "Law enforcement in Senegal"—nice. The link to "wise old men" is, I have to say, extremely European and historical in focus. Does this put the readers off the scent? Consider piping the article "Jola language" to "their language", not just "language", as a signal that the link-target is specific, not a dictionary term. Can you go through all of the article, please, and ensure the linking is professional? These exercises may help. Tony(talk)11:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have read through the exercises you indicated and I have attempted to implement them as well as I could throughout the article. If you have further concerns about the linking in the article, please let me know. Neelix (talk) 15:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I read the Martin Klein reference, but it doesn't seem to say much about slavery in Carabane; I don't see anything there that pertains to slavery in Carabane which isn't already expressed in the article. Other than two comments about runaway slaves, the only information on the topic I can find in the Martin Klein reference states "Carabane was dominated by a métis planter who grew rice and produced lime with slave labor. The slave trade was pursued there openly at first and then clandestinely until the early twentieth century." The Carabane article currently says more than that about slavery on the island: "Arriving on the west African coast in the 15th century, the Portuguese were active in the region from the 16th century onwards, mostly in search of wax, ivory, and slaves." "The Baudin family employed slaves and, despite the declaration of its abolition in the French colonial empire in 1848, this slavery continued on the island until the early 20th century." "While the Mandinka Muslims continued, illegally, to practice slavery and trade, non-Muslim villages tended to come together, accepting the Resident of Carabane as the arbitrator of their disagreements." etc. If anything, the article makes more of the slavery issue than the Martin Klein reference. I would gladly add more information about slavery in Carabane to the article if there was more which could be added, but all the information in the particular reference you mention is already included in the article. Neelix (talk) 14:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Support (media licensing and cites not checked) - the article is informative, engaging and comprehensive and contains a wealth of relevant illustrations. I note that image size has been queried, but given the generous number of images I think the small size is sensible so as not to overwhelm the article—the reader can click to see better when interested in a particular view. A few detailed comments follow; I'll probably add others, and may do minor copyedits rather than listing them so please revert if any problems result.
The lead's a bit long but I think it's probably justified.
Throughout the article, there are rather a lot of common words linked. For example, "The local economy was based mainly on rice". Moreover, the word "rice" has already appeared several times with no link (including an earlier appearance in the same paragraph). The article needs going through to remove unnecessary links per WP:Overlinking.
"Signs of erosion have been observed since 1849. The house of the government representative on the island has burned down twice and was rebuilt both times." - two apparently unrelated sentences. A third sentence then explains the connection but this is confusing and the passage should be reworked.
"The testimonies of explorers and colonial administrators demonstrate that Carabane has participated in rice cultivation, fishery, trade, and palm wine production for a long time." - "a long time" is unnecessarily vague. At least an order of magnitude should be indicated (perhaps "for centuries"?).
"At one time, the island was considered an arid location,[11] where coconuts were the only useful plants likely to flourish and vegetables were difficult to produce.[23] In what is now a tropical climate, vegetation is more abundant than in the north, especially during the wet season." - it's unclear what "in the north" (where there is less abundant vegetation than on the island) refers to.
"the Jola people, the ethnic group which remains the most populous on the island to this day." - the last three words are superfluous (and I believe deprecated, although I can't find where I read that).
"The ceasefire of 2004 brought relative peace, but in the meantime, the sinking of the Joola in 2002 claimed the lives of many inhabitants of Carabane and cut off much of its ability to engage in trade and accept tourists. In considering the threat of coastal erosion, some fear the worst.[68] After years of development and community outreach, Carabane is now experiencing a series of difficulties.[69] In 1998, the French commune of Bon-Encontre committed to providing Carabane with humanitarian aid, both economically and culturally." - the connection between the consecutive sentences is unclear, as is the nature of the difficulties Carabane is now experiencing, since the chronology reverses through the paragraph from 2004 to 1998.
"Along with the mangrove degradation, the civil unrest, and the inadequate fishery regulation, Casamance has had to deal with the closure of a major industrial complex in Ziguinchor in 2003 which employed more than 2000 people." - this should make clear the nature of the major industrial complex and its relevance to the Aquaculture section in which these words appear.
I have addressed all the points you have made above by editing the article; please check my solutions and let me know if they meet with your approval. The only concern you have raised which I have not fully addressed is the overlinking. I have removed all the links to rice except the first, which I retargeted to the Africa section on that article. I have already done a thorough review of the article to remove extraneous links and make generic links more specific. Would it be possible for you to list some of the common terms being linked so I will know which to remove? Neelix (talk) 02:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As requested I will try to list a few examples. I may be incorrect, but just picking some at random I have the impression that some or all of the following may be unnecessarily linked: rain, farmers, vegetables, peanut, coconuts, palm trees, clay, straw, mud bricks, marshy, oyster, drinking water, humidity, oranges. However, judgement by editors is necessary according to the topic and article, so I will simply leave the comment open for the nominator and other reviewers to take any further action if deemed appropriate. Thank you for your responses; all my concerns have been met. PL290 (talk) 10:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Karanacs. Overall, this is a very good article and I am happy to see such fine work on a topic that is underrepresented on Wikipedia. I have a few quibbles that I expect will be easy for you to fix.
I saw quite a few claims that need to be properly cited. I'm not sure if this is a problem of not having a citation at all for the claims, or if the citation style used needs to be changed. These are the passages that I believe need to be sourced:
The lack of clay is the reason that architecture on the island employs straw wrapped around wooden frames more often than banco mud bricks. This type of architecture is also common in the villages of Mlomp and Seleki.
These tangles help retain soil, a process which expands the island where the power of tidal race would normally have the opposite effect
and the information it contains remains valuable today.
Tourists are not as attracted to the island for its mangroves as for the coconut trees which line its beaches, featured on many of Carabane's postcards. These palm trees are a valued resource on the island.
particularly because the inhabitants of Gorée were threatened with losing part of their resources with the imminent demise of the slave trade, and also because of their competition with Saint-Louis.
By the following year, the Christian community had performed 1100 baptisms, as well as many catechumen.
was insufficient staffing, cost of living was rising, and the harsh climate began to wear on the buildings. In 1920, the diocese had, in addition to Carabane, thirteen churches and approximately thirty-five chapels.
the Carabane church was one of the buildings selected, some members blamed the colonial administration for having facilitated the expansion of Islam in the country
Although many of them were Wolofs and Muslims, they did not know the Jola country and its traditions. The periods of drought that ravaged the Sahel in the 1970s forced peanut farmers to move to regions where rice was all that grew
In particular, the location of the island does not allow easy access to serious or urgent medical assistance. The pirogue-ambulance funded by the regional council is used only as a last resort
. The main portion is manufactured from a very hard wood measuring 2 to 2.5 metres (6 ft 7 in to 8 ft 2 in) in length. The kayendo is mainly used to plough rice fields, but is also used for other purposes, such as excavation and construction
Badji Malang, a local painter, potter, sculptor, and poet, has created a camp in the area.
The house of the government representative on the island has burned down twice and was rebuilt both times. The subsequent erosion is evident when one considers that the original location of the house is now flooded, even at low tide -> Did the fires directly impact the erosion (that is what the "subsequently" implied to me)? If not, do we really need to discuss the fires or can this be framed more generally?
Should have conversions from degrees C to degrees F
In a few places, the article may be overly detailed. Is is necessary to provide the name of the report (and the translation) that Bertrand-Bocande submitted?
If the oldest inhabitants of Casamance are the Bainuk people, the left bank of the mouth of the river was mostly populated by the Jola - Is there a question of whether the Bainuk people were the oldest inhabitants? Is the fact that the Jola inhabited the left bank dependent on whether the Bainuk were the oldest inhabitants in the region? this may need to be reworded.
I'm not sure how the point about poor sanitation fits into the paragraph on rice/lime. Can this be explained a bit more?
I think "employed slaves" is probably a bit of an oxymoron. Can this be reworded?
Was the Baudin brother really JOhn, or was his name actually Jean (the French version)? I see that both spellings are used.
Is this François Mendy School or François Mendy Ecole?
Of your nine main bullets, I believe that I have fully addressed the last eight by way of my edits. Please let me know if there is anything left to do with them. As for your first bullet, the sourcing confusion with various statements, I have only clarified the sourcing for some of them. Of the twelve, I have clarified the sourcing for #'s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 12. I am confident that #'s 1, 2, 9, 10, and 11 are sourced by references which are included near them, however I do not have access to those sources and therefore cannot verify that this is the case. While the same may be true of #'s 3 and 4, I think it likely that they are not sourced. What would you suggest I do? Neelix (talk) 01:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your very prompt response. I've stricken the comments that you've addressed. I am concerned about the statements that still have no sourcing. These that I highlighed (there were more unsourced statements in the article) really need a source, as they are expressing opinions or reasons for events. If you can't find any other sources to cover these facts, they may need to be removed from the article. Karanacs (talk) 14:55, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to find alternate sourcing for these seven statements, however I have been unsuccessful. I have contacted Ji-Elle, the main contributor of the original article on the French Wikipedia, to determine the sourcing for these statements. Ji-Elle was very prompt in responding to my request and has agreed to look into it within the next couple days. Can the conclusion of the FAC wait until Ji-Elle gets back to me with this information? If not, would removing these seven statements from the article be an acceptable temporary solution? Neelix (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have heard back from Ji-Elle about four of the remaining seven statements requiring citation and I have added the citations to the article accordingly. The remaining three to be sourced are #'s 2, 3, and 4. I will add these citations when Ji-Elle gets back to me. Neelix (talk) 16:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ji-Elle has gotten back to me with citations for the remaining unsourced statements. I have added the citations to the article accordingly. I believe that the entire article is now fully sourced with clear citations. Neelix (talk) 17:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Support, assuming Neelix's edits have addressed K's questions. Fascinating piece. A couple of my own minor queries:
Lead: "Although Carabane was once a regional capital in its own right, the village no longer fits into the social structure decreed by the Senegalese government". I read the very interesting, if somewhat complex, section that this is intended to summarise. The lead sentence does not however make sense to me. It appears to be about two unrelated points, so the use of "Although...," is inappropriate. Alternatively, the intended meaning could be "Although Carabane was once a regional capital in its own right, the village no longer qualifies as a capital under Senegalese government policy." One way or the other, this sentence needs tweaking.
"If the oldest inhabitants of Casamance are the Bainuk people, the left bank of the mouth of the river was mostly populated by the Jola". I didn't understand this sentence. Is the intended meaning: "While the oldest inhabitants of Casamance may be the Bainuk people, the left bank of the mouth of the river was mostly populated by the Jola"? If so, suggest this be amended accordingly.
Thank you for your copy editing and reduction of overlinking. I have reworded the two sentences you mentioned; let me know if they are still unclear. Neelix (talk) 14:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Concern; this article was a translation from the French wiki article. Were all of the original sources consulted by the nominator, and all text verified? There were serious WP:LAYOUT issues that seem to have come from the French version, and why are website publishers in italics? Also, books need publishers. I would like to see a French speaker check some of the sources for verification. There is also text sandwiched between images in many sections, including "Historic sites" (see WP:MOS#Images). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have taken care of the missing publishers in the bibliography section; most were present but were accidentally placed in the 'editor' rather than 'publisher' field. You say that there were layout issues; do some persist? I do not know how to unitalicize the website publishers; is it possible that this is a function of the template? Also, what do you suggest to avoid image sandwiching? The primary editor of the French article, Ji-Elle, has reviewed the article and complimented me on the translation. Which sources do you feel need to be checked for verification? I believe Ji-Elle would be willing to check them for us. Neelix (talk) 03:02, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have corrected the layout. I still see quite a bit of text that needs citation (opinions and numbers), and the concern with a translation is that, unless the main editor has access to and has reviewed all of the original sources, how does s/he know that the article is comprehensive and/or accurately reflects the sources? FAs cannot be built via translation. Can the French author not send you all of the source material? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am sure Ji-Elle would be willing to send me the source material, however it would be much easier for Ji-Elle to simply verify that the English article accurately relates the information found in that material and state so here. Would you consider this an acceptable solution? Neelix (talk) 03:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This will have to be resolved by reviewer consensus, and it is troubling that none of the reveiwers raised the issue. See WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT; in this case, the English article got its text from the French Wiki, not from the original sources. Translated articles, in which the translator does not access the original sources, by definition cannot meet WP:V, a core policy, which assumes the writer accessed the original sources. The translation relies on the original source of the fr.wiki, and Wiki is not a reliable source. An additional issue is that WP:NONENG must be accounted for. A third problem is that WP:V prefers (but does not require) English-language sources; was a search done for information in English? For example, this source contains some info that seems at odds with article content; I don't know if it's a good source. Another English source.Not sure about this one or this one, but English sources of info should be available. This entire issue needs to be revisited by supporting reviewers and resolved; how it can be resolved will depend on reviewer consensus. Yet another issue is that the article still contains numbers and opinions that are unsourced (and I came across a sentence that started with a number-- it should be recast so that it doesn't start with a number). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just delete all articles based on translations, and abolish the projects which encourage such translations? Your view, which appears to go beyond actual policies in several cases, isn't followed in even 1% of those translations, I'll bet. Gene Nygaard (talk) 18:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why it's an issue for reviewer consensus, but it is not disputed that Wiki is not a reliable source, and Featured articles must be based on reliable sources. Translations may be getting by on Wiki, even though they violate core policy, but FA standards are higher. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the various Wikipedias are not a reliable source. But I'm assuming that this article does cite reliable sources. That's what you need to go by here; whether or not the cited sources support the statements in this article. It doesn't matter in the least whether any particular editor has read those sources; what matters is whether they back up what is said. Gene Nygaard (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note also that User:Ji-Elle is, in a very minor way, a contributor to this article (putting the star on the interwiki link). From what has been said here, it appears that she has read the cited sources, and that she has read this English article and understands it well enough to think that it accurately reflects the sources. It would appear that she is competent to assess that, even if she is not comfortable enough with the English to do the editing here. So, would it satisfy your objections if she posted a statement to that effect on the article's talk page? I see no reason why it couldn't be in French, at least with respect to any detailed analysis. And Neelix or someone else could even provide an English translation there if she does use French. Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:17, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, whether we should set the precedent of elevating a translation to featured status, when the translator did not have access to the original sources, is a matter for reviewer consensus. But before we can even consider that, WP:NONENG, the inclusion of English-language sources to the extent they are available, the sandwiching of text between images, and the unsourced text need to be addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You have shown nothing to be contrary to WP:NONENG. We don't need wild speculation here. Furthermore, issues about images or whatever should be dealt with separately, not in this thread. Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
hmmm. Anyway, I've raised this at WT:FAC for broader discussion; as delegate, I don't want the position of establishing a new FA precedent in the absence of broader discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:53, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia: I have added citations to all the statements to which you affixed the "cn" template. Please let me know if there are other statements in the article for which you would like clearer citations. Also, you mention in one of your edit summaries that overlinking still exists within the article. This issue has already been addressed at length. Would you be able to specify which terms have been inappropriately linked? Neelix (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Object to changes in Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English started by Jimfbleak in the particular edit he references above[91], and in subsequent edits. The reasons he gave above are not in accordance with our rules, and contrary to the statements made there, the usage was consistent at the time.
This is particularly objectionable because at the time that Jimfbleak made those changes, there were no metre spellings on the edit page of the article. Yes, there were "-metre" spellings in the article, but every one of them was the result either of ignorance, or of deliberately improper use of the black box {{convert}}. That template defaults to British spellings, and you need to jump through hoops to get it to comply with the existing usage within an article. That wasn't done by whoever first put those convert templates in this page. Gene Nygaard (talk) 03:26, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I hope I'm not being accused of bad faith here. I picked up what appeared to me to be a mix of AE and BE and standardised to the latter as being more appropriate for West Africa, where BE is standard. When I realised the main editor was Canadian, I offered to revert my edits to CE, but he accepted the changes as more appropriate also. I didn't put in the convert templates, which personally I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, and I read "-metre". Why are my actions, which I offered to reverse, "objectionable" - or is it just that changing apparent AE spelling is blasphemy by definition? Jimfbleak - talk to me?09:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I realize that you saw "metres". I think I'll stick around to make sure that every article going through this FA process gets reviewed for various templates (many of the infobox templates do the same thing, though spelling changes are less likely to occur there because they are more likely to use symbols for the units of measure) sneaking in varieties-of-English changes.
Another problem is that the templates sometimes cannot even be set to give the proper spelling. For example, the sp=us parameter in {{convert}} doesn't even work in cases such as this:
{{convert|3.7|t|lb|sp=us}} which yields 3.7 metric tons (8,200 lb).
Despite that having the sp=us set, it gives us a spelling much more foreign to American English than "litre" is. The only solution is to remove the template and enter the measurements properly. Gene Nygaard (talk) 10:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, with respect to national varieties of English, it is only for articles closely related to English-speaking countries for which we look at the variety of English used there. For French-speaking countries, or whatever, the location isn't supposed to be a factor. We also don't use the spelling "meter" just because an article deals with Germany, or Norway, or Sweden, or the Netherlands, or Iceland, or whatever.
That convert template is an incredibly complex behemoth waiting to pounce on the unwary. Good grief, it takes thousands of subtemplates, each on a separate template page, for it to work. I wish more editors were like you, realizing that they are out of their league and avoiding it. Few editors are willing to invest the time to learn even the rudiments of its complexity, and perhaps nobody understands everything it might do. (There is even a way to get "3.7 metric tons (8,200 lb)*" as a result, but you cannot do so by setting the sp= parameter if you use the proper symbol t for metric tons to identify the units.) Gene Nygaard (talk) 11:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Amen to that, even in its intended task, the template sometimes converts narrow ranges to give nonsense like 97–97 cm. More to the point, what action are you suggesting? Although it was not intended, BE is not inappropriate for this article, and is accepted by the Canadian nominator. Are you asking that the Canadian English spellings be restored as a matter of principle? If not, please clarify what you want me or the nominator to do (I wouldn't revert the spelling unless the main editor agreed) Jimfbleak - talk to me?11:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes, of course. Despite the apparent beliefs of some of the denizens of these pages, the nominator does not own this article. British English would not be inappropriate; but neither is American English. So our rules are that it shouldn't have been changed. Certainly not without any discussion on the article's talk page about it. Gene Nygaard (talk) 03:36, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RETAIN is a behavioural guideline and not a valid reason to oppose. WP:RETAIN specifically governs the case where the dialect choice makes no difference to the quality of the article, and is an arbitrary means of settling disputes and should not be used to create them. An honest mistake was made and the dialect got changed. Changing it back purely to satisfy wiki-pedantry will not improve the article or make anyone happier. At FA, we review the current text of the article for conformance to content guidelines. Issues with editor behaviour, or aspects of article history are not relevant and should be discussed elsewhere if at all. Colin°Talk22:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are hoist on your own petard. The changes took place during the FA review. So by your own admission, you should be restoring it. Gene Nygaard (talk) 00:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)01:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A WP:MOSNUM (1300 vs. 1,300) review is needed throughout, as is WP:MOSDATE#Precise language (avoid the use of terms like "today", which becomes outdated, instead include as of dates ... I would add precise language myself, but I can't read the sources. Words like "today", "now" and "currently" occur a couple dozen times in the article.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments continued. I've done a major cleanup of the reference formatting (note that for cite web, use the publisher paramater instead of work) and this has exposed some additional concerns. Several of the references are without publishers. In one case (Gregg...) a book does not include a page number. I also spotted several other sentences that need to be cited. I've added {{fact}} tags to these in the article. I'll be going through the sources more thoroughly over the next few days and will post additional comments here. Karanacs (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
no title or author for Teranga, Nov-Dec 2007
What makes [92] a reliable source? This appears to be a self-published website.
many of the journal articles reference a range of pages rather than a single page (or two). Can you verify that the whole range is the appropriate citation for these facts, or should it be more specific?
The Cormier-Salem reference from 1989 has a weird date - can you please verify this
There are two references to Marie-Christine Cormier-Salem and one to Marie-Christine Cormier. Can we please verify that the one without the Salem is correct?
What makes Kassoumay a reliable source? In a brief look at the site, I couldn't tell who publishes it - it seems like a tourist website.
The doctoral thesis needs to be better cited - the publisher is not correct. Has this thesis been used as a source by any other scholars?
Thanks so much for the reference formatting cleanup; the reference and bibliography sections look great. A substantial number of concerns have been raised over the past few hours. Considering the slow trickle of suggestions for improvement over the past month that this article has been undergoing its featured article candidacy, I must admit that I am overwhelmed. I will attempt to address the new concerns as swiftly as possible, however the shear number of them may prohibit the sort of quick responses and solutions which I have been keen to supply throughout the past month. I have notified Ji-Elle about the concerns which have been raised; Ji-Elle is fluent in English and may be able to respond to some of these questions more aptly than I. I can address four of the issues right now and will attempt as many others as I can tomorrow.
I have added the title and author to the Teranga citation; it was included in another citation already.
The only thing that the DaKite source is cited for is the information that kitesurfing takes place in Carabane. I would expect that a website published by a kitesurfing company (DaKite) which offers kitesurfing in Carabane would be an appropriate source for this information, however I can look for another if you think it necessary.
I have added the publisher to the Diatta citation.
I have added the publisher to the Savigneau citation.
I have verified that the Marie-Christine Cormier citation is correct. I don't know why an author would use different forms of her surname on different articles published in the same year, however we must go based on the citation information presented on the sources themselves wherever possible. Also, which doctoral thesis requires supplimentary citation information? Petit or Guilera? As for the Kassoumay website, it is published by a company called Kassoumay. They offer various tourism-related services in the Casamance area. I would expect that it is a reliable source for the same reason that DaKite is a reliable source, however I can look for another to source the information it currently sources in the article if you believe it necessary. Neelix (talk) 17:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added the page number to the Gregg reference. Have you identified citations lacking publishers other than the ones you list above? If not, I believe all the citations are now supplied with publishers. Neelix (talk) 17:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ji-Elle has gotten back to me with much information, the most important item of which is that the date for the Cormier-Salem 1989 reference is correct. I have also been able to add citations to the two statements to which you affixed the "fact" template. Neelix (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for verifying all that! I've finished what I'm planning to do of the ref cleanup. More questions/comments:
The book Senegal et Gambie needs an author, if possible
Several books don't have ISBNs listed.
Need a publisher for Entrepreneurs en Vedette
Please go through all the references closely to make sure that I didn't miss anything. Journals and books should be listed in the sources section, and only the reference (author name/title and date) and page number in references. Please check also for formatting - no extra characters, should be periods after the page numbers, etc.
Please make sure that both doctoral theses are clearly marked as such (in English). The catalan language one is the only one I had recognized as a thesis, and the publisher on it doesn't seem right.
I spent some time today examining various English-language sources that I had partial access to so that I would have a better idea of whether the article was truly comprehensive. (My next step is to examine some of the French sources, but I don't think I have time for that today.) I was pleased to note how highly some of the sources used in the article already have been rated by their pears (Louis-Vincent Thomas and Christian Roche have been cited in many of the sources I consulted). I had trouble finding English-language sources that discussed much of anything beyond the history. My overall impression from this is that the history of the article does cover most of the key facts, but leaves out a lot of the context.
In general, areas that I think may need more fleshing out are: (Note that I don't know for sure if there is information available on each of these points - this is intended to be a list of suggestions for further research)
the slave trade - this was a huge part of African history in general, and there is very little information given here on how this might have affected Carabane, and whether Carabane's experience was different from that of other parts of the region.
colonial competition - although it is mentioned that there was some competition among different colonies, we're not told why, or how this might have played out, or even what the result was.
colonial supremacy - we're given a brief overview of the fact that the people didn't take to French authority very well, but not told much detail.
sinking of the Joola - this is mentioned in several places in passing. Can we get a few more details?
recent violence - this is mentioned, but little context is given in how the local conflict relates to what is going on in the rest of the region.
List of sources that may prove useful. Note that the links are to Google books, but the entire books are not accessible. You do not have to use these sources - they are mainly suggestions as to the type of information that might be available.
This book has some information that may be useful about how Bertrand-Bocande' gained recognition of French sovereignity. - [93] Robert Aldrich, Greater France: A History of French Overseas Expansion, published by Palgrave
A tiny bit of info about French-Portuguese competition - [94] Boubacar Barry. Senegambia and the Atlantic Slave Trade, published by Cambridge University Press, 1998
I can't access this book, but I suspect it may have some useful information - [95] - Alice Joy Hamer - Tradition and change: a social history of Diola women (Southwest Senegal) in the Twentieth Century - University of Michigan
A quick search of the Peter Mark source "Portuguese" style... on Google books indicates that there is more information in that book that could be useful
Mark's other book, A cultural, economic, and religious history of the Basse Casamance since 1500 is listed in the references but not used. I suspect this will have a great deal of useful information.
This book [96] also has information about Jola/Diola culture and one modern perspective on whether the Casamance is actually part of Senegal. This perspective is not really seen in the article.
Klein's book Slavery and colonial rule in French West Africa is only used once in the article. Per the limited preview on Google books, this may provide more information about how the slave trade affected Carabane
This [97] has further information about the language spoken in Carabane - Thomas Albert Sebeok, Current Trends in linguistics: Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa
Here's a reference to a medical article that mentioned an epidemic that killed all Europeans in Carabane [98]
There's no preview of this book, but I wonder if it would be useful - 'Shrines of the slave trade: Diola religion and society in precolonial Senegambia By Robert Martin Baum
Reference 17 (Naufrage de transbordeur ....) needs authors listed (see source for those). It looks as if this is an official report that is hosted on Kassoumay but is not necessarily published by them - this needs to be made more clear in the citation. Same with ref 101 ("Commission d'enquete technique...")
Reference 20 is a deadlink. I was trying to check to see if the source was in French or English, because I suspect if it was published by the US State Department the title should be in English.
I haven't seen the Teranga source. If it is primarily written as a giant ad for Carabane (which may be the case considering it is published by Air Senegal), then it is likely not an appropriate source for Tourists are not as attracted to the island for its mangroves as for the coconut trees .
I'm not sure whether Kassoumay (a tourist site) is appropriate to use to source the fish/reptiles that can be found on the island.
Ref 39 is not correct. Scientific Linux is the name of the software used on the web server, not the web server itself. This site appears to actually be (http://iodeweb1.vliz.be/odin/) OceanDocs, a repository for scientific papers. The particular paper cited here mentions that it was a paper presented at a convention. The convention would likely be the publisher?
Instead of using the abbreviation PEPAM, can the publisher field state the full name of the agency?
I'm really sad to say this, especially considering how close this FAC appears to be to its completion, however my commitments outside Wikipedia have caught up with me and I will not be able to begin addressing the remaining concerns for at least another week. When I nominated this article back in November, I had hoped that I could finish addressing the reviewers' concerns over the holidays before things started up again in the new year. If the FAC can wait another week or two for me to do the remaining legwork, I would be grateful, however I understand that this FAC has already gone on for nearly two months. If the FAC cannot wait that long and the remaining concerns are sufficient to keep the article from being promoted, I will simply have to renominate the article at a future date. Thank you for all your hard work and constructive criticism on the article thus far. Neelix (talk) 17:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for keeping the FAC open until I was able to begin addressing these concerns. With respect to the concerns listed under the heading "A few more things on the existing sources":
I have added the authors and publishers for ref 17 and ref 101.
Ref 20 doesn't appear to be a deadlink to me. When I click on it, the webpage loads properly. Despite having been produced by the US State Department, the citation is correct; the title is in French.
I haven't been successful in discovering any other sources which document the population of reptiles and fish located on or surrounding the island. Is the Kassoumay citation insufficient?
I have switched the publisher for ref 39 to the name of the conference.
I have unabbreviated PEPAM.
Like ref 20, ref 74 doesn't appear to be a deadlink when I click on it. Is this possibly a browser problem?
With respect to the concerns listed under the heading "More questions/comments":
I have added an author to the Sénégal et Gambie citation.
I have added ISBNs to all of the citations for books which were published after 1966 (when ISBNs were first introduced).
I'm not sure which citation you're referring to when you say "Entrepreneurs en Vedette". Would you mind providing the ref number?
I've gone through the reference and bibliography sections, adding more citation information in places and making some corrections. I believe the citations are well-formatted now.
I'm not sure how to mark the two doctoral theses as such. Should I simply append "- a doctoral thesis" to the citations?
There was also one concern I forgot to address in the section under the heading "A few more things on the existing sources": the Teranga source. I have ordered this article through my local library, however it will likely take some time to arrive. Until it does, if you are sufficiently concerned about the advertising nature of the article, the statement that Tourists are not as attracted to the island for its mangroves as for the coconut trees which line its beaches, as featured on many of Carabane's postcards can simply be removed from the article; this information is not especially important. I do, however, believe that the article is an appropriate source for the statement that Some tour guides falsely claim that this is Auguste Léopold Protet, no matter whether the article is entirely an advertisement or not. Neelix (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have reviewed the journal articles and book sources you have gathered about Carabane. Thank you for taking the time to do that. I have added information about Bertrand-Bocandé from Greater France to the article, and I have added information about French-Portuguese competition from Senegambia and the Atlantic Slave Trade to the article. I have looked over Identity Matters: Ethnic and Sectarian Conflict, but I'm not sure what to add to the article from it. The information it contains does not appear to be specific to Carabane and might be better suited to the Jola people article or the Casamance article. The question of whether Casamance is part of Senegal or not is already found on the article in a sense more specific to Carabane: the statement that the island no longer fits into any category of the administrative structure decreed by the Senegalese government. I think the article already has enough information about the Jola and the broader Casamance area and that having more would be tangential to the topic at hand. Nonetheless, if you strongly disagree with my assessment, I would be happy to include more information on either of these topics. The other books you mention are not fully accessible online, therefore I would have to order them through my local library in order to add information from them to the article. I am willing to do this, however it would take some time for me to receive these sources. Does the article require the additional contextualization that these sources might offer in order to attain featured article status? Neelix (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – A straight translation from the French Wikipedia without reading the original sources should not be made a featured article on the English Wikipedia. Simple as that. A nominator should know what is in their sources, both for writing the article itself and for responding to questions about the content. That simply cannot happen when the nominator doesn't even understand the language the sources are in. We, therefore, are left guessing as to whether the sources have been well-represented, in content and tone. That just isn't good enough. All of the sources should be checked by someone who understands the languages used; preferably, the person would be an uninvolved third party. Apparently this is happening now, but I won't feel comfortable seeing this be represented as our best work until that process is complete. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:30, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not certain that I understand your objection. You say that a "straight translation from the French Wikipedia without reading the original sources should not be made a featured article on the English Wikipedia," however all the original sources have been read by Ji-Elle, an editor of both the French and English Wikipedias. You also state that "the nominator doesn't even understand the language the sources are in." This is not true; I am well-versed in the French language, as my translation of this extensive article should demonstrate. All this discussion assumes that I have not engaged with the original sources; admittedly, I have not fully read all of them, but I have gone through most as most are available online. I have found no inconsistencies. We are not "left guessing as to whether the sources have been well-represented, in content and tone" because Ji-Elle can easily vouch for the accurate representation of all the sources, including those sources to which I do not have access. Neelix (talk) 16:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you get Ji-Elle to make a statement here? Not that I distrust you, but I would like to hear it from Ji-Elle him/herself that they can "vouch for the accurate representation of all the sources, including those sources to which [you] do not have access". Dabomb87 (talk) 03:08, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The translation may be accurate, and it may reflect the sources, but it is far from idiomatic. One example from many: "Solar lighting operates on the wide roads even though there are no cars on the island to drive on them." --MalleusFatuorum03:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll simply point out that the subject of the sentence I first objected to is "solar lighting", which doesn't "operate" on any roads, wide or narrow, and "them" appears to be referring back to the subject of the sentence, implying that there are no cars on the island able to drive over the solar lighting. --MalleusFatuorum04:11, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize if I'm missing something obvious; I still don't understand. The quotation about Vargas's suicide does not appear in the article. Neelix (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think I understand a little better; the use of the word "them" is ambiguous and might be reworded to "these roads." I am less clear about the problem with the word "operates"; what do you mean by your statement that solar lighting "doesn't 'operate' on any roads"? Neelix (talk) 18:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it does, but it sounds rather strange, and I can't imagine anyone ever saying it like that. More usual would be to say something like "Although there are no cars on the island to drive on them, the wide roads are illuminated by solar lighting". --MalleusFatuorum19:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have reworded the sentence in question on the article; please let me know if it meets with your approval. You began this discussion stating that this sentence is only one of many which need to be altered. I notice that you have since altered many sentences in the article yourself. Do any remain which you still deem lacking in clarity? Neelix (talk) 22:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To be perfectly honest Neelix, I'm teetering on the verge of striking my oppose. Not sure I'm yet ready to support ... but let me take another look through. It's an informative article that I enjoyed reading in any event. --MalleusFatuorum23:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Is this article using metric or imperial as its primary units of measurement? I'd have thought metric, but some sections are using imperial, whereas others use metric. Really ought to be consistent. --MalleusFatuorum15:12, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My English is poor, I admit. Nevertheless, I was able to appreciate the translation made by Neelix and I did read through this discussion page. Unfortunately I must have missed something, as I can't understand what is wrong with the sources, according to your standards...
Support. All of my earlier reservations about this article have been cheerfully dealt with thanks largely to the nominator's hard work and persistence. Deserves to be promoted now I think. --MalleusFatuorum15:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I'd like to, for the fourth occasion, put International Space Station forward for consideration as a Featured Article, as it represents a Vital topic in what I feel is a comprehensive and accurate way, with a plethora of references and a format which meets all requirements in the Manual of Style. Since the last FAC was prematurely closed six or so months ago, a lot more work has been completed on this article, including a sixth Peer Review which identified and fixed a number of issues, a copyedit and a general cleanup of citation formatting. A few more sections have been added and a couple of daughter articles have sprouted to assist in ensuring the article covers every pertinent topic, and the article has been kept updated to match operations and continuing assembly of the station on orbit. I hope that, on this fourth occasion, the FAC process will find this article suitable, and look forward to everyone's comments. Many thanks in advance, Colds7ream (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The last FAC left these sources out for other reviewers to decide for themselves (note I did check to make sure they were still being used in the article):
But it specifically says at the bottom of the page "Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University, but they should be." which seems to imply this is not backed by the university. So is it really published by the University of Maryland? Ealdgyth - Talk23:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Simply because these are the only references I can find - they match up with the NASA diagram provided in the ISS reference guide, and I felt that a paragraph based on these would be better than 'the Russian bits have some cool radio stuff too...'. This is the trouble with the ROS - Roskosmos is considerably more secretive than NASA. Colds7ream (talk) 23:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This has the same backup as Heavens-Above - see when an ISS pass is going to be visible to you on Heavens-Above, then step outside at the appropriate time. Not only will the ISS be in the exact place Heavens-Above says it will, it'll look exactly as this page describes it. Physical checks - a wonderful thing on the Internet. :-) Colds7ream (talk) 23:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please spell out abbreviations in the references, I noted "OUP" in ref 32 (I'm assuming Oxford University Press? But most folks aren't going to be a "source geek" like myself...) Also CSA in current ref 69 (International Space Station).
Current ref 44 (Chris Jones) is a book source, and you've handily put in a amazon.com link to the sales page, but you don't give a page number for the information. It's 288 pages, needs a page number.
Support - The content is comprehensive and presented in a balanced fashion, and the prose engages the reader. The photos are fantastic! (sdsds - talk) 08:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The article is well written and includes lots of comprehensive information. I second Sdsds on the photos. I feel the article meets the FA requirements. DR04 (talk) 17:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images have alt text where needed. Too much text for me to want to check further (sorry). The "Space stations and habitats" navbox image should probably have none, but that's minor.
Support – My concerns with the article were raised during the last peer review and some follow-on comments. Those were addressed satisfactorily and so I'm happy to lend my support for an FA status on this article.—RJH (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note " ... the photos are fantastic ..." and "includes lots of comprehensive information" will not get this article promoted in the absence of discussion of the issues about reliability of sources raised. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can be validated physically by downloading pass data for a satellite, then seeing if the pass data matches the satellite's actual orbit via observing it, which it always does. Colds7ream (talk) 18:46, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - article is an interesting read and comprehensive. The sources identified above as being potentially problematic seem to me to satisfy our reliability/verifiability requirements. That said, should others feel otherwise, I think the statements they support could generally be removed entirely without ill effect to the article as a whole. Christopher Parham(talk)02:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments re certain sources (a partial response to Sandy's plea):
Heavens above - I think this is possibly OK. If I have interpreted third-party sites correctly, the site is recommended by staff at Sydney Observatory (see http://www.sydneyobservatory.com.au/blog/?p=134).
http://www.astronomyexpert.co.uk/ - Looks unreliable to me, in the sense that the reliability of content is unclear, and i couldn't find recommendations in favour of it (i did, however, after chasing some links down rabbit holes, find a less than happy customer of a claimed founder of the site). I would find an alternative source or ditch the relevant content.
Bob Park - Assuming his CV is not fake, then this material is reliable to establish the opinions of Bob Park: it seems fine to cite it when reporting him as one of the ISS's critics and why he was a critic. I'm not convinced it's such a great idea to be relying on this material to establish facts. Thus the second instance of footnote 25 i think is not appropriate as a reliable source. I think the first instance is problematic in terms of undue weight. Park's very brief comments on his page are used as a cite for this: "This large cost has meant that the ISS programme has been the target of various criticisms over its financing, research capabilities and technical design". The ISS is one of the largest scientific and engineering endeavours of modern civilisation. If I'm going to see a citation for criticism, it should be much more heavyweight than an individual physicist. This is egregious undue weight. For criticisms to be mentioned in the lead, i'd be expecting open letters from scientific societies, or an editorial in Nature, or a critical congressional report. Anything less than that isn't serious in this content, i would suggest.
OK, I moved the Bob Park reference so that it only cites for statements made directly by him, and added in the Popular Mechanics reference to replace it in the other locations. Colds7ream (talk) 12:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Pop Mechanics reference is a significant improvement, and certainly avoids reliability questions. I'd want to think more about whether the criticisms are being given undue weight, but one quick point that would deal with this emerges from the PM article itself: it says at one point "The other group, an independent review committee appointed by the prestigious National Academy of Sciences (NAS), issued an even more stinging rebuke". If you can find such a source and cite it directly, as well as the Popular Mechanics piece, i would say that ties up this issue pretty well. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing this theme, I tried to click through to cite 111 ("A waste of space"), and the link didn't work for me. i then went to 115 ("The trouble with space stations") - and realised the source was another one where reliability has been questioned during the review process. My quick glance suggests this does not rate as a reliable source. In the case of the article's report on "a panel session last week at the Military and Aerospace Programmable Logic Device (MAPLD) International Conference", it would be better to go to refereed publications by some of the esteemed contributors like Roger Launius. If there are no such publications covering criticisms of the ISS, that should tell us something :-)
I've replaced "A Waste of Space" with the Popular Mechanics reference - will this do as a published editorial? Will keep looking nevertheless. Colds7ream (talk) 12:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's good. Do keep looking (and see my other reply above) but this is looking better. I may try and come back for another look in next two days. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Coming back to sources: one of the web sites queried by both Ealdgyth and SandyG was http://www.glinx.com/~sherm/spacestation_observation.htm. Colds7ream's response is essentially "anyone can verify its reliablity by checking the site's predictions against their own observations of the sky". I note neither Ealdgyth nor Sandy have responded to this argument by striking their concern, so I presume they don't accept this argument as adequate. Colds7ream's argument did put me in mind of one of the examples of acceptable common knowledge: "Plain sight observations that can be made from public property". I actually wondered whether this could apply here, but if not, is it not at least enough as a reliability test for the citation in question? I'd be interested in Ealdgyth or Sandy G's response. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, although it could possibly be left uncited under common knowledge, if you cite it, it needs to be to a reliable source. The problem could be solved by appending in addition the NASA site that verifies it, and moving Heaven-above to an external link, as external link requirements are lower than source requirements. Or it could be left uncited and use the common knowledge thing. Ealdgyth - Talk16:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've removed the Glinx link regarding sightings as common knowledge, and added the NASA applet as a supplementary source in the infobox to back up Heavens-Above. Anything else left to do? Colds7ream (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing this dicussion. I was looking for an alternative source for the claim that the ISS is now visible during daylight. At present this is sourced to Spaceweather.com. Reliability was queried, and the fact that the site's author also works as a contributor to some of NASA's online material has not so far led the reviewer to strike their concern. I haven't come up with an alternative source, but while looking I found this, which appears to show that the European Space Agency thinks Heavens-above is so reliable, they use it to help the public find the ISS, rather than build their own app. It is likewise recommended by the Western Australian observatory. For me this seals the reliability of Heavens-above, so if it is needed as a cite for anything, go ahead.
A partial response to Ealdgyth. It seems strange that we are prepared to allow "Plain sight observations that can be made from public property" as a basis for unreferenced facts, but not to allow that as a grounds for contributing to assessing the reliability of a source for a referenced fact. I don't agree on this. My view is that if a plain site observation can be made that confirms something claimed by a source, that should be counted in the source's favour in terms of reliability. I am not suggesting that it is enough on its own, but it should not be disregarded.
Back to the 'visible in daylight' claim. First, this is again able to be substantiated by "plain sight" observation - as is demonstrated by a google search, that turns up various blogs and even youtube videos showing the phenomenon. However, I dislike the approach taken in response to my previous suggestion, which implies no citation is better than an allegedly unreliable citation. One day the ISS will be de-orbited, and "plain sight" will no longer apply. The best I can offer so far is Crikey articles posted by journalist Ben Sandilands. Crikey in general is certainly reliable, and Sandilands has posted this.
I had been all set to oppose on the grounds of limited use of published books and articles, then I read Colds7ream's comments at the last Peer Review, and was pursuaded. Not sure if I'll have time to look at remaining reliable source issues, but i think they've been narrowed down to a small enough number that i would not let them prevent promotion. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:41, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I do not write policies, I just try to point them out for others. Don't forget the standard at FAC isn't just meeting WP:V or WP:RS, it's "high quality" that fits with the subject. And, unfortunately, the standard isn't that statements MUST be cited, even if to a less than stellar source, but that statements likely to be challenged must be cited. Something that can be observed, well, that really does fall into the "how likely is this to be challenged" category. So, then you get a war between the FA criteria which require higher quality sources and the fact that the information isn't exactly likely to be challenged because it's readily observable by anyone. In the very limited number of cases like this, it is easier to just go with the "not likely to be challenged so doesn't need a cite" rather than kill the nominator trying to find a non-Self-published source. Of course, I can always not give folks advice that will help their nominations pass or not work with them to try to resolve issues without requiring a million hoops to be jumped through, but I do try to work with the various policies, guidelines, and criteria. The whole issue of reliable sources isn't set in stone, and there is a lot of gray area and stuff. If you, as a reviewer, are satisfied that the sources meet the various criteria, that is good. HOwever, it may be that what satisfies you, won't satisify other reviewers, so a lot of times I leave sourcing concerns out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. (shrugs) Quite honestly, I"m really tired of being dragged through hoops on this FAC, and will just leave the rest of the concerns out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. (which, incidentally, was basically where things stood before, except we've managed to whittle the list down a bit more. So, whatever. It's the holidays, and I'm tired and cranky and really need to be doing other stuff, like other FACs, rather than debating this sort of thing. It's off my watchlist, consider the rest of the concerns left up to reviewer descretion. Ealdgyth - Talk23:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the hygiene section the locations of the toilets are said to be in Zvezda and Harmony, but isn't the US toilet in Destiny until Tranquility arrives?
In the table of the future modules, I believe that pictures of Rassvet (MRM1) are now available (especially since I saw something about the module arriving in the US for launch preparations) online, but I am unsure of their copyright status, please advise.
Also, could we get an image of an MPLM berthed to the station for the PMM?
I may have completely missed this, but I do not believe that there is a prominent link for List of ISS spacewalks (a Featured List) in the assembly section or in a see also section for that matter, anywhere in this article? The statistics on the spacewalks and duration would seem relevant enough to be mentioned in this article.
And I have supported because in my second look through the article I did not find anything else. Admittedly I review for content accuracy and omissions, but from my reviews of the previous FACs and PRs, it is clearly evident that the improvement of this article is significant and I do not see anything else that should keep the article from becoming Featured. -MBK00423:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not thrilled with the writing. Strong oppose.
"golden" or "gold-coloured"—take your pick, but not both at once.
Did you visit the link I provided? After working through the exercises you'll have a much better idea. I corrected about four in the diff. Tony(talk)01:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Watch out for repeated links, sciency "telegram" language", and the overuse of initial caps.
It's a scientific/technological article, there's not much that can be done to avoid this.
There's everything to be done to avoid this dreadful telegram habit of omitting "the". It is not English. Scientists think they are free to do it, for some reason. Journal editors seem to be too ignorant to call a halt to it. Tony(talk)01:28, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is large, because in every previous assessment people complained that it was too short. Now others are complaining its too long. As I've said before, I clearly can't please everybody. Colds7ream (talk) 15:29, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The length of the lead seems appropriate to me. It does contain a high proportion of lengthy and/or technical words, which may make the reading more of a slog. But it is a technical article so some of that is unavoidable.—RJH (talk) 19:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – I think that all instances of "long-term", "daily", "safe" and "efficient, reliable" can be removed from first paragraph of the lead without harming the content. Most of these are relative terms and hence vague, while the "daily" seems unnecessary. That should help shorten it a little. – RJH (talk) 16:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(1) It's not a vote-count. Please read the instructions, which clearly point out that addressing opposes is what matters, not the number of supports.
(2) That "no one" else has bothered to critique the prose is neither here nor there. Thanks for asking, but I won't "be bold"; reviewers are under no obligation to do your work for you; I would rather spread my reviewing around more of this avalanche of FACs. Thus, it is up to you to bring the work up to standard.
Another noun plus -ing that is a little clumsy (didn't I point this out above?): "With the fall of the Soviet Union ending the Cold War and Space Race".
"Similar budgetary difficulties were being faced by other nations with space station projects, prompting American government officials to start negotiations with partners in Europe, Russia, Japan, and Canada"—spot the redundant word. You could probably lose "government" (officials aren't corporate, usually). Were those countries partners before they took up the US offer to collaborate?
I am more than aware of the fact that it's not a vote count, thanks (in any case, its not a count, its a landslide). Lots of people have looked at and cleared the prose; the trouble we have now is yourpet hates which no-one else has a problem with; this is the problem with the FAC process; one person can bring up an issue which no-one else thinks is a problem, and it can fail a perfectly good article despite what everyone else has said. The idea here is to form a consensus - what you're saying is, in effect, "no, I just don't like it, take it away!" - and the worst part is that it'll probably be failed because of it. We've written an extensive, detailed article on a current, large and dynamic topic, which has taken one and a half years to compile (with extensive discussion of the en-GB and en-US issue if you'd bothered to look on the talk page), and you don't like it because you personally don't like 'ing' words? Please. Give me a break. I'm not looking for you to do 'my' work for me. I just want you to recognise the work that has already been put in; I'd be grateful if you weren't so patronising. This little paragraph has probably earned the article a fail, but heck, it needed to be said, and for my stress I needed to say it. Enjoy. Colds7ream (talk) 12:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While Tony raises some vaild points that should be addressed, comments should not be nit-picky either. Although FAs are Wikipedia's best work, which this article clearly is, they are not Wikipedia's completely perfect work. When discussing prose issues, try to point out more things that are either wrong or confusing and fewer things that are perceptions of style. Reywas92Talk16:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, I have again asked for assistance at GOCE, if one of them might look specifically over the issues mentioned by Tony. I'm not sure which GOCE editors last reviewed the article, otherwise I would have contacted them directly. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:MRM-1 at RSC Energia.jpg - FUR. I say we remove this one. Image doesn't seem required. The americans will take a picture of it once it is docked to the station, so it is replaceable.
File:ISScrewtimeutilization.png - I have notified the author on his talk page, but he seems to have disappeared since october. This will likely need to be done again, or have to be removed.
I'll happily remove the utilisation graph, but the MRM-1 image was added in response to a request by MBK004 above. And I think comments from other reviewers rather render Tony's concerns opposed. Colds7ream (talk) 23:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did not contest the fact that a MRM1 image would be nice, I just don't think that this MRM1 image is allowed per our NFCC (because it is replaceable at some point in the future). And MBK004 did say: "I am unsure of their copyright status, please advise." It probably shouldn't even be in the MRM-1 article. I cannot find an alternative image of MRM1 btw. It has entered the States, but only NASA images of the transportbox arriving at KSC have been published, and none of checkout images. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:50, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you spent more time fixing the prose, or better, finding an independent copy-editor, and less time sniping at me, the article might by now have been sufficiently improved. Instead, you harp on about the number of supports. Please read the instructions, which make it clear that this is not the essence of the process. In other words, a zillion supports count for nothing if there are still issues to be fixed. Tony(talk)00:18, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually Tony, I'm not sure that's fair. Of course the number of supports are not the essence of the process, but i don't think that was what Colds7ream's 29 Dec remark implied. The instructions do say:
For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the director or his delegate determines whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the director or his delegate:
actionable objections have not been resolved;
consensus for promotion has not been reached; or
insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met.
It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.
The range of supports is therefore relevant to assessing the building of consensus, and opposes are not the key issue; rather, "actionable objections" that "have not been resolved" are important. I'm not saying that all objections necessarily have been addressed, but i thought Colds7eam's initial comment was OK to test the waters. Colds7ream, Tony is correct in that the prose could still improve, and I'll see what i can do. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:20, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's right: the last para says it all. Did we really need to wade through that huge quotation to get to the relevant bit? Tony(talk)02:26, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsSupport
:*"The first resident crew, Expedition 1, arrived in November 2000, midway between STS-92 and STS-97, which added two segments of the station's Integrated Truss Structure, the Z1 and P6 trusses." Can an editor who knows about the construction look at this - does the clause "which added..." refer to the actions of Expedition 1, the mission objective of STS-97, or some combination of these? It isn't clear.
"...two Russian Strela cargo cranes, used for transferring parts and spacewalking cosmonauts around the exterior of the Russian Orbital Segment,..." Likewise this is unclear. Should this read "used for transferring parts by spacewalking cosmonauts..."? hamiltonstone (talk) 03:45, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More. "The station provides crew quarters for each member of permanent Expedition crews, with two 'sleep stations' in the Russian Orbital Segment and four spread around the rest of the station, which will eventually be moved into Tranquillity when it is added to the station." Can someone check whether this means the four spread around the station will be moved to Tranquillity, or all six? Current punctuation implies all six - just wanted to check this.
Update needed for this I think: "This will increase to five in early December, when another Soyuz, carrying Oleg Kotov, Timothy Creamer and Soichi Noguchi arrives."
Finally, there is this sentence in the lead: "The various sections of the station are controlled by several mission control centres on the ground, including MCC-H, TsUP, Col-CC, ATV-CC, JEM-CC, HTV-CC and MSS-CC." This is an avalanche of inappropriate acronyms for a lay reader, and not necessary in the lead. I suggest this be changed to "The various sections of the station are controlled by mission control centres on the ground operated by the participating space agencies."
SupportOppose — sorry. The prose is still not FA standard; there is redundancy ( eg "a course of") and vague uses of "various" and "variety". But, as Tony as already pointed out, there is a bigger problem caused by the plethora of fused participles, perhaps more easily understood as "noun plus -ing". I do not object to their occasional usage but the article is full of them. I am also concerned about concerns about the sources have not been fully addressed. In my humble opinion, the article still needs a thorough another copy-edit and concerns about sources addressed. Lastly, have I missed the image review? Was this done at the last FAC? Graham ColmTalk23:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Who do you suggest does the copyedit, Graham? I can't, it's my prose, and I see no problem with it. The Guild of Copyeditors is worse than useless in responding to requests, and reviewers here bring up issues with the prose and then do nothing to help. I realise the FAC process is overworked, but if reviewers could be a bit more helpful, or there was more support available, things would improve exponentially. In all seriousness, I'm begging for help here - I CANNOT DO THIS ON MY OWN, and no-one seems to want to help out. I'd cite WP:BOLD and WP:SOFIXIT, but will just be shot down again. I've had it up to here with unhelpful editors in what's supposed to be a collaborative project, and am starting to flirt with thoughts of packing up and leaving. Colds7ream (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article has been much improved since my review a few days ago. I don't usually like to see extensive CE work during a "live" candidature, but I fully understand the nominator's frustration with regard to the lack of help. Yes, indeed this is a collaborative project, but here, at FAC, I think many reviewers expect most the collaborative work to have already been done. Some of Ealdgyth's reservations about sources remain, but I don't see any major obstacles. With regard to the FAC criteria, I have seen candidates that fall shorter than this promoted, so I ask myself this: Would I be proud to see this on the Main Page? I think so. Graham ColmTalk22:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportI've been watching this FAC since the call for help was put out at the GOCE. Just to clarify: it's really difficult to jump into a large article at last moment to clean up prose. It's better to contact copyeditors individually from the list to find one with time and even better, some familiarity with the discipline/field. I work almost exclusively on articles related to the arts, so working on this article with a deadline, is more than daunting. Just thought I'd add an unsolicited opinion. That said, I can spend a little time working through the article bit by bit. First, however, I'd suggest the two back-to-back sentences that begin with "this" (unspecified pronouns) be recast with antecedents. See "This provides" & "This aspect" para 3, in Purpose.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Other editor(s) appear to have weeded out fused participles that were a concern.
Though not stated explicitly, I think the comments and actions of User:TheDJ have addressed the matter of images, unless anyone has further concerns.
Substantial work has been done to deal with questions of source quality, both in eliminating some sources and improving the level of available information about others. It is hard to gauge from the text above just where the sources are at, so I may get this wrong, but here's my take:
Sources queried by Ealdgyth and not subsequently struck out by her:
In addition, Ealdgyth left unstruck http://spaceweather.com/, but stated "Leaving this out for other reviewers to decide for themselves, but I lean reliable".
Of these sources, the bobpark refs are now only used to substantiate the fact that Bob Park (a physicist) has made certain criticism of the ISS program. I have suggested that they are reliable for this purpose. The nom has also bolstered this with other more significant refs about criticisms.
There is a later list of "Sources requiring discussion" in the FAC discussion - i'm uncertain who put that list there. Although it is later in the review, I think it has been superceded by subsequent discussion and actions by editors including Colds7ream:
http://www.heavens-above.com/ - i identified that this site is recommended and used by professional observatories and the European Space Agency. I would rate this as reliable.
In other respects the list is the same as that of Ealdgyth, above. It appears therefore that there are three sources still in use in the article queried by Ealdgyth for which only the nom has made any response. I am reproducing those responses here:
"Simply because these are the only references I can find - they match up with the NASA diagram provided in the ISS reference guide, and I felt that a paragraph based on these would be better than 'the Russian bits have some cool radio stuff too...'. This is the trouble with the ROS - Roskosmos is considerably more secretive than NASA. Colds7ream (talk) 23:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)"[reply]
Personally I would recommend Colds7ream or others weed out these last three if possible (particularly thespacereview, unless third party publications endorsing it can be found), but if those items are the only sources available on the ROS info, then I'm not sure that weeding them and the associated content out is the best option. Either way I would not hold up the FA on that issue alone. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the summarising, Hamiltonstone. The spacereview reference and statement have already been removed, and the ROS sources are indeed the only ones I can find; I'd rather not remove all the ROS comms data if possible, if only to avoid taking an exclusively US-based viewpoint on the article. Colds7ream (talk) 07:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Still tiny images? I fixed two. The map of the world is soooo small: who on earth could make out the text on it? Try centering and boosting massively. If you have control of the original, please enlarge the text. Tony(talk)08:22, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Argh. Fair point. After a certain amount of stuffing around and reading Wikipedia:Picture tutorial, I did some resizing of those where i thought greater size was valuable for making out the image content. If I've stomped all over some aspect of how WP tries to present images, feel free to tell me where to read about it, then revert. hamiltonstone (talk) 09:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm not a participant of the FAC process, and really have no knowledge of how it works (and, frankly, I have little interest in it). I mention this point because I'm not going to stick around here to debate my opinion, and I'm not sure that my opinion really counts for anything here. All I really wanted to say is that I don't think that an article that has seemingly been appropriated by some sort of quixotic nationalist interests by imposing the use of British English on it ought to be a Featured Article. If it was a subject tied directly to the UK, or there was some compelling reason to use a nationalistic variety of English, then I wouldn't care, but that's not the situation here. I wish you guys good will in improving the article, especially since it's a subject area that I have a ton of interest in, but this issue really bugs me. — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 20:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You use that link as though it actually addresses the concern that people are bringing up. Since this is obviously an issue for many people, don't you think that it's worth considering? I'd love this article to be featured, and I'd love to help get it there, but this issue that you've created really wrecks it. — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 23:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We did discuss it. The result was no consensus to change. It took ages and proved to be a major distraction. The version of English doesn't matter - American can read British English and Britons can read American English. What exactly is the problem here? Colds7ream (talk) 23:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This has got absolutely nothing to do with regard to the FA criteria and I think that the FAC delegates will pay little attention to this point. I quote: The English Wikipedia does not prefer any major national variety of the language. Within the English Wikipedia no variety is considered more correct than another. Editors should understand that the differences between the varieties are largely superficial. Which is from WP:ENGVAR#National_varieties_of_English. PS. Who are these "many people"? Graham. Graham ColmTalk23:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Progress? Graham Colm appears to have partly struck out his concerns. On the image issue, as I commented earlier, unless anyone thinks otherwise the images appear to have been addressed by TheDJ. Graham comments that it needs another copyedit. The specific examples he left in his comment were: "there is redundancy ( eg "a course of") and vague uses of "various" and "variety"." I did a search, found no uses of "a course of" at all, one of "various" that i have removed, and two uses of "variety", both of them appropriate IMHO. I appreciate they were meant to be illustrative, but i was wondering whether that comment is now defunct after recent copyediting, and if so whether it might be struck through? I guess i'm wondering what type of redundancies or other copyediting issues reviewers think remain? hamiltonstone (talk) 05:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Work is also underway to replace the Russian comm sources and remove other dodgily-sourced info from the section. A book has been found! :-) Colds7ream (talk) 11:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Great article and everything I would expect from an FA. There isn't a book in the world without a typo, so I don't accept that incredibly minor grammatical errors should hold this up, and fwiw I think the lead is a perfect length for a complex subject. The whole article also makes a complex subject very accessible. If I may make one prose suggestion though; all 3 para's of the lead and several of the para's in the next couple of sections all open the same way... Just a thought. I'd also recommend that the objection listed above should be struck. Spelling has no bearing on this FAC and the person who did the most work on the article should get to choose. Nice work Ranger Steve (talk) 11:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Atlantis Docked to Mir.jpg is non-free content with a fair use rationale. Seems okay though. As of this review, all other images appear to be properly licensed under PD or CC.
The contributors map does have alt text, I'm sure: "A world map highlighting Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland in red and Brazil in pink. See adjacent text for details." Also, I've added an info template to File:MLM - ISS module.jpg. Colds7ream (talk) 21:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Status.
Since I last commented on the status of the article above (7 Jan), several issues have been addressed:
Extensive copyediting by User:Truthkeeper88, User:GrahamColm and User:RJHall, as well as ongoing (love that word) maintenance by Colds7ream and some copyediting and further overlink reduction by myself.
Rewriting of "communications" section to reflect the jettison of unreliable sources, and at least one new source. The changes are most obvious looking at this diff.
Image review has been undertaken; thank you to User:RJHall.
I have just re-run the script to check MOSDASHES, and checked dablinks again. All clear.
This article is using a template that is in userspace. Please move this to template space ASAP. Articles should never point to userspace. Karanacs (talk) 18:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please fix the measurement (meters cubed) which needs to have a conversion. The table on pressurized modules does not have citations; these need to be added for statistics, such as how many of X is present. And we need citations for the projected dates that the rest of the modules will be delivered. The table for that is devoid of citations. I've also made other MOS fixes (sentences shouldn't start with a number that isn't spelled out, etc). At this late stage in the game, I don't expect to see these types of problems. Karanacs (talk) 18:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed the template, and the pressurised modules tables - both of them - have a citation or two on every line. There's not a single module uncited. I've also inserted a conversion template for the 1000m3 - is that the only one? I'd also like to say that the reason these things were there is because no-one has said anything about them before. :-) Colds7ream (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for being so prompt. Sorry, I totally missed the citations next to the pictures. Blame my poor tired eyes - there are a LOT of FACs to run through today. Karanacs (talk) 19:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I optimistically feel it meets the requirements set. A note: I appreciate the relatively few sources used in the article. This is because there are relatively few; he was forgotten for most of the 19th and 20th centuries, and only academically "rediscovered" in 1991. There are a few additional sources identified in the ODNB I could use, but I can't get access to them, it seems. Ironholds (talk) 17:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
For information on Garrow, see Landsman, "The Rise of the Contentious Spirit," 561- 64. Didn't you find anything useful in "The origins of adversary criminal trial" by Langbein? It seems to raise interesting points...
I did, but it didn't discuss Garrow himself much. The information I could see (I may not have been paying much attention and missed something, I appreciate). I'm not quite sure where to get Landsman from, but I'll do a search.Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, his "indisputabl[y]...massive impact on the modern, adversarial court system" isn't really explained or described in great detail. But I'll just raise that as a point to discuss.
This is the problem; the sources I have all go (essentially) "Garrow was aggressive, as seen in case X when he did....", "Garrow set rules of evidence, as seen in case Y when he said to the jury..." but they don't actually discuss his importance in much detail, except to say that because of his status as a leading practitioner, new pupils followed his lead and it helped bring in an adversarial, evidence-based system. Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My concern is that you've opted to be too cautious with respect to his contribution. I fully understand your caution, and in one way I applaud it. However, the reason why this is a concern for me is that... before yesterday or whenever, I had never heard of Garrow and didn't really have any crystallized understanding that the court system wasn't always "adversarial". Then when I read this, I was quite interested. This is cool stuff, to be frank. But the article left me with a hollow feeling. What... what were the changes, then? I would like to know what the distinguishing features of an adversarial system are, and how Garrow contributed. Now, of course there are two problems. The first is that a full explanation should be in the article on the adversarial system. Fair enough. But at least I could get two or three points, either one paragraph each, or each having two or three sentences in one longish paragraph. That would mean either an additional two or three paragraphs or one longish paragraph in this article. And the second reservation is (as you mentioned) that Garrow's contributions... just weren't closely recorded... because people don't always notice that history is being made. Fair enough again. However, "The origins of adversary criminal trial" by Langbein seemed to take the approach I am hoping for. It did mention at least two characteristics and said "It's not possible to clearly define Garrow's contributions, but...". It even offered a "people don't notice history" hedge. I'm hoping you can take an approach similar to Langbein's. I am making final tests now, but if you can't find the instances I am talking about in Langbein, I will try to find them... • Ling.Nut04:12, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, I see your point; thank you, by the way, for the emailed sources. I think a way to do it would be to expand on a) what the situation was pre-Garrow, b) what Garrow's attitude was and c) what the situation was post-Garrow; if you've got no problems with that format, I'll spend the next couple of days rejigging it. Ironholds (talk) 04:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds perfect. I would also suggest adding one sentence that says something roughly like "Although contemporary documents do not establish clearly the degree of Garrow's impact on these trends, many sources suggest that his impact was <insert adjective>" followed by a modest example of the the blue-link parade or chorus line that we all know and love. • Ling.Nut03:09, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"irregular relationship" euphemism.... no wait, you're probably referring to "Farrington confided to his diary that [Garrow's] marriage was 'somewhat irregular'" (Hostettler p. 60). I dunno if I would have presented this information in the same manner that you have.
I found a couple cites that suggest that either he coined the phrase "innocent until proved guilty," or at least his was the earliest recorded use of it.
He quickly established a reputation as a criminal law barrister, particularly for the defendants, and in February 1793 was made a King's Counsel by HM Government to prosecute treason and felony cases. - I think this would flow better at the end as... cases of treason and felonies ... or at least sound cooler ;)
Studying here Garrow "knew the English language well; had a moderate acquaintance with the Latin and, as an accomplishment, added a considerable proficiency in French".[4] - studying there
Comment No mention of the libel case of John and Leigh Hunt. In all fairness, it isn't mentioned in the Hunt article, either, and most definitely should be discussed there. But one source I found says that the Hunt case brought Garrow notoriety. • Ling.Nut04:41, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can we have a caption on the infobox image? How old is he there?
Done.
"with assaulting John Troughton, putting him in fear of his life, and stealing his hat." Well, that cracked me up.
"By 1799, a book recorded that his business at the Court of King's Bench "is exceeded by none but Mr. Erskine's", and that "he has long monopolized the chief business on the home circuit... No man is heard with more attention by the court, no man gains more upon a jury, or better pleases a common auditor".[19]" Could this be rephrased? The tenses are odd, and I'm not even certain what it means.
"Thanks to Garrow's political connections, he was made first Solicitor General and then Attorney General for the Prince of Wales in 1806 and 1807; he was recommended by Erskine, who said in a letter to the Prince that "he knows more of the real justice and policy of everything connected with the criminal law than any man I am acquainted with".[27]" Seems a bit shortt to be its own paragraph
"The press had been speculating that Garrow, a Whig, would enter Parliament since 1789" Perhaps "Since 1789, the press had been speculating that Garrow, a Whig, would enter Parliament"
"He eventually resigned as Attorney General and as a Member of Parliament in 1817, when he was appointed one of the Barons of the Exchequer.[34]" Refer to him by name- you just mentioned Garrow
""to appoint a gentleman holding a lucrative office at the sole pleasure of the Crown to a high judicial situation, was extremely inconsistent with that independence of the judicial character which it was so important to preserve inviolate"." Is this a quote from Romilly, or a(n) historian?
"He regularly amazed both barristers and defendants with his knowledge of the intricacies of crime." Examples? Again, this is a rather unsupported statement.
"The trust contains his entire estate, with the trustees being Leonard Smith, a merchant, Edward Lowth Badeley of Paper Buildings, Inner Temple and William Nanson Lettsom of Gray's Inn.[42]" Is this meant to be present tense?
"Lemmings notes Garrow as not only a formidable advocate but "[the] first lawyer to establish a reputation as a defence barrister".[48]" Who? This chap hasn't been mentioned before
"Garrow's work was cited as recently as 1982, when the Supreme Court of Canada quoted a passage from The Trial of William Davidson and Richard Tidd for High Treason, where Garrow instructed the jury as to how to interpret testimony, in Vetrovec v The Queen in 1982, and 2006, when the Irish Court of Criminal Appeal quoted the same work in their review of the 1982 conviction of Brian Meehan for the murder of Veronica Guerin.[50]" Quite a long and confusing sentence.
"He was crucial in insisting on the autonomy of lawyers when inducting evidence, in one case openly arguing with the trial judge to insist that the advocates have independence in submitting it." This is too technical for me, but sounds interesting. Could it be rephrased or include some links?
Leaning Support. I dunno how much longer this FAC will run. If it comes to closing time, please color me "Weak Support". I think the "Weak" can be rectified with only a few changes, only two of which I would absolutely require. First, I think a sentence (or at most two, but probably not even that) in the lede that mentions the details of his impact is called for, since these are supporting points of a major thesis of the article. That's the change I require, and really, it shouldn't take more than 5 or at most 10 minutes to make a nice one. Second, please change "irregular relationship" to something like "That one contemporary described as 'irregular'" and cite the quote.. I gave it somewhere above. Another minute or two, tops. Third... I don't absolutely require this, but it would be oh so wonderful.. where is the other landsman article? Please find it if you have time: THE RISE OF THE CONTENTIOUS SPIRIT: ADVERSARY PROCEDURE IN EIGHTEENTH CENTURY ENGLAND. March, 1990 75 Cornell L. Rev. 497 • Ling.Nut06:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - An interesting article. I must admit it might be recentism, but I do think we could do with another sentence or two on Garrow's Law? It is a novel idea to have a drama based in 18th century court drama and I believe it has been criticised for hitorical inacuracies/dumbing down. I'd also change the sentence about him going into parliament to be '...would enter Parliament as a whig' rather than '...,a whig, would enter Parliament'. It could do with some more pictures of the subject as well. You cannot tell me there are no satirical cartoons of Mr Garrow's work considering the period? I'd also, obviously, prefer the less opaque method of referencing of Name, Title, Publishing Info, Page rather than the simple Name Date format, though I am aware this is more usual in legal history etc. However, these are picky improvement one could make to an already good article. As it stands it is a worthy FAC, though a few niggling improvements could occur. --Narson ~ Talk • 15:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Read this article a few days ago, and was impressed then. The improvements definitely suggest this meets the featured article criteria. PeterSymonds (talk)15:17, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I was the GA reviewer for this article, it was a pleasure to read at that time and clearly met those requirements and i suggested that it could without much difficulty make its way here, with the improvements already made I think its certainly a worthy FA Ajbpearce (talk) 00:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Late to the party, I know, but a few comments. Firstly, when Ironholds asked me if I could suggest a law-related article he could improve, and I suggested Garrow, I never thought how excellent the result would be. Given Ironhold's skill as a writer, though, I should not have doubted the outcome. A few quibblettes:
In the body of the article, Southouse recommends that Garrow becomes a barrister or solicitor, and then he becomes Crompton' pupil. In the lead, Crompton recommends to his pupil that he becomes a barrister or solicitor. I assume that the first version is correct, and the lead is slightly tangled?
"...many people in Aberdeenshire migrated south. As such, Garrow's father David was born at a farm called Knockside" etc. I'm slightly puzzled by what the "As such" adds here, when David Garrow is still born in Aberdeenshire.
In the discussion of his first trial, "and being two of the most prestigious criminal barristers of the day" seems odd - is a word missing?
I'm not convinced that Law Officers of the Crown is a good link when mentioning Garrow's appointment as S-G then A-G to the Prince of Wales, since (if I understand things correctly) he wasn't being appointed to a Crown position in the sense of a governmental appointment, but to a private (though prestigious) post in the Prince's affairs. Attorney-General of the Duchy of Cornwall might work, though it isn't great.
In the same sentence, is there a better link for "Prince of Wales" than, err, "Prince of Wales", i.e. the individual in question rather than the title?
In Political career, "appointed to serve the interests of his patron" - out of interest, who was his patron?
Otherwise, a very interesting read, and an article that will surely be even more widely read if and when series 2 of "Garrow's Law" is produced! BencherliteTalk18:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments, Bencherlite; I've fixed all the points. No need to be self-deprecating; from the list of Cornwall AGs, it appears that was his formal title! Nice catch :). Ironholds (talk) 19:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because it has achieved Good Article Status, it is well-sourced, stable, and I believe it is ready for the next step. It recently went through Peer Review and all suggestions there have been implemented. Thanks for your time. Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ20:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Technical check No dabs, no dead links, but alt text is either missing, inadequate, or includes information that is not describing the image such as the name of the zoo. Remember the point of alt text is just to describe what is shown in the image, not to add non-visible details. Jimfbleak - talk to me?19:15, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that ALT Text thing has been kicking my butt for a few days. I think I have it figured out, small pics, no space after the equal sign, let me know how I can improve them! Thanks again for taking the time to review!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ19:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (earlier comments moved to talk) Sorry for the long delay in coming back here - I haven't had Internet access for a while. The article is much better now, and you can consider everything above here as resolved, but I still have a couple of comments:
Why not add a little about scalation counts in the article? It's probably not the most exciting information, but it's been the subject of scientific studies, so why not say how many scales there are and perhaps how that differs from the most closely related other Cyclura species?
I'll look into this, although it may be out of scope here and beter in the Cyclura article.
Perhaps true, but not so for the counts in C. nubila itself.
I'll definitely look into adding this, would be better if I could draw it like it is in the Burton paper cited and linked in the article (ref #10)don't want to make it ABAADA, though.
ABAADA?
As Boring As A Dog's Ass. :)
I have to agree with Fifelfoo below that it'd be better to source the etymology of Cyclura to something better than a website. For mammals, there is a giant work by someone who compiled all genus names and etymologies back in 1904; perhaps someone similar exists for reptiles?
Nope. Nothing that I've been able to find explains the Greek roots of Cyclura as well, believe it or not. I'll trust a Franciscan Biologist on a Latin/Greek translation over most modern sources anyway. My background in Latin and Greek is the same and I'll go toe to toe with any Doctor with a background in the Sciences any day on a Latin translation. :)--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ20:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like you are right; Google Books and the Biodiversity Heritage Library didn't bring me anything. I did find the original description of Cyclura, which talks about a cylindrical tail in C. teres but does not explicitly say that is where the name comes from. Ucucha20:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps. But what you'd be citing it for is the etymology, and Harlan doesn't give an etymology. By the way, I also found the original description of Cyclura nubila[108], which isn't very etymologically useful either. I added it as a ref to correct the original name. Ucucha09:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Decline: Sourcing: Father Sanchez' website is not a High quality reliable source, or reliable source as it hasn't undergone peer review and is being used to support Taxonomy.
Actually, all that Father Sanchez source is supporting is a Greek to English translation, thanks for taking the time to read it.
Also high quality reliable source issue: using the Caymanian Compass to support sexual dimorphism?
It's one of three sources, some reviewers like to see things on the interwebs, I prefer books, thanks again for your time.
Comments: Dates in citations need to be brought to consistency. At the moment Month DD, YYYY and DD Month YYYY are both present. I fixed Malone, C.L. (2000). as it hasn't been published for the purposes of a citation system (its certainly a HQRS and is published in the Wikipedia sense of "made available for consultation and issued by a responsible issuer") it needs to use Roman rather than Italic text for the title. Some sources have locations for their publisher, others don't, and you're not applying obviousness of locations either: locations for all or none. "(in English). SF Gate" and again for Deseret News? Some other fiddle spacing issues such as, "Retrieved December 04,2009." Fifelfoo (talk) 03:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Edit to add, I ended up having to do this over, so thanks for not fixing the format.
Support wrt criterion 1a. Oppose- sadly. An enjoyable article about a charming lizard but the prose needs more work. It suffers mainly from redundancy, repetition and a little verbosity. I have taken the liberty of editing the Lead to give you a better understanding of what I mean.[109] I think a good copy editor could fix these issues in an hour or so, and enjoy doing it. Graham ColmTalk17:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Graham, I'll keep plugging away at it, sometimes when I write these reptile pieces up I put on my scientist hat and geek out a bit, printing it and reading it aloud is what made me go "ooooh that's bad!"--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ18:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
All the images have appropriate licenses and sources where needed. It is always reassuring to see the metadata (although one image, having been post-processed, has lost this). Graham ColmTalk22:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"As they are not capable of creating urine more concentrated than their bodily fluids, they excrete nitrogenous wastes as uric acid salts through a salt gland in the same manner as birds. As a result, they have developed this lateral nasal gland to supplement renal salt secretion by expelling excess potassium and sodium chloride." This seems a bit clunky to me. I think they could be combined, but I'm not I understand what is being said well enough to do it myself.
Basically, they do not produce liquid urine, but they do produce uric acid. In most reptiles (think snakes and varanids) this is expelled as urates with their feces. They consume a lot of plant matter so they blow salt and potassium out of their nose. You see this exaggerated if you watch documentaries on Marine iguanas, or if you've ever seen white specks on the inside glass of a terrarium with iguanas in it. I'll try to break it down into two sentences.
This is a difficult fact to get across without going into too much technical detail. How about, "Unlike mammals, reptile kidneys cannot concentrate urine to save on water intake. Instead they excrete toxic nitrogenous wastes as solid uric acid in their cloaca, and they excrete other excess salt ions through their salt glands." Graham ColmTalk19:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Graham, how about: "Unlike mammals, reptile kidneys cannot concentrate urine to save on water intake. Instead they excrete toxic nitrogenous wastes as solid uric acid through their cloaca. In the case of the Cuban iguana which consumes large amounts of vegetation high in phosphorous, these excess salt ions are excreted through their salt glands."--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ19:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the lead, it suggests that iguanas lay their eggs in close proximity to Cuban crocodiles, but in the Mating section it seems that they lay in the abandoned mounds of the crocodiles and not near the crocodiles themselves.
Other than that I feel that I can support. I've given it a copyedit, which I encourage you to look over to make sure I didn't alter the facts. bibliomaniac1518:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have all the pictures been verified that they show the correct species? There are some wikipedia iguana articles with the wrong species as an image in the article. Not my information, a friend is an iguanologist, or whatever, and tells me this. --69.226.100.7 (talk) 22:00, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes sir, and yes...I've spent the past three years correcting misidentified species on here, mostly its the Ctenosaura types that get called "Green iguana" by tourists in Mexico, but there was a rather humorous one involving a Chuckwalla misidentified as a Beaded lizard. All pics are of the type found on Cuba, the Isla Mayagues population is much redder.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ00:06, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
how about a citation to the protologue? Maybe it's available somewhere on the net?
"Its specific name nubila..." specific is currently linked to species. How about linking instead to specific name?
Done.
link subspecies
Done.
"This phylogeny was revised after later mitochondrial DNA analysis..." I think maybe the word classification would be more appropriate than phylogeny here
Done
"Cuban iguanas in excess of 1.6 meters (5.2 ft) when measured from the snout to the tip of the tail have been recorded..." Since the previous sentence clearly identifies the subject as Cuban iguanas, how about tightening thusly: "Individuals with lengths in excess of 1.6 meters (5.2 ft) (measured from the snout to the tip of the tail) have been recorded at the wildlife sanctuary within the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base..." Also, would any meaning be lost by changing "within" to "in"?
Done and I think so, "in" does not sound right to me whenthinking of GITMO.."inside"?
"In both sexes, limbs are black with pale brown oval spots." I don't really see this blackness in the images provided. At best, the specimen pictured in the Conservation section has gray limbs. Am I missing something?
Actually, it's correct, hard to see in these images see here:[110],
"...and a row of spines running down their back..." How long are these spines? Are they sharp?
The length is proportional to the age of the animal, hatchlings are hard to see, juveniles look like a row of bumps a male with an 18" body length has 1/4" spines, whereas a full-grown adult may be an inch or longer. They are pointed, but not sharp.
wlink mottling; color vision; maybe wikt transverse
done
"By seeking out locations with more ultraviolet sunlight to bask in, the Cuban iguana optimizes vitamin D production." I'd be interested to know if any sources mention this as a possible adaptation to a vit. D deficient diet?
Not that I've seen, although there is a well-documented case of a herpetoculturist who keeps Chuckwallas and provides them with no sunlight or artificial UV light, instead he feeds his animals excessive doses of liquid Vitamin D. Sauromalus and Cyclura have similar lighting requirements in this regard.
"Cuban iguanas have a white photosensory organ on the top of their heads called the parietal eye." I can't see any such eye in the images... could you describe this eye some more?
It is very difficult to see, here is a picture of one on the top of an Anole's head:[111]I wikilinked to the article to go into greater detail that I felt was beyond the scope of this article.
numbers or text: "95%" vs. "fifty percent" later
Done
link nematode;
Done
"Instead reptiles excrete toxic nitrogenous wastes..." Comma after Instead, for a pause?
Done
anything more about their behaviour? Are they territorial? Do they fight? Do they defend themselves by biting or whipping their tails? Do they hang out in groups? Can they climb trees? How fast can they run?
I can include some more of this they're not as territorial as other Cyclura, most combat is "ritual", although I have a female that latches on to the throat of every prospective male I've introduced her to and tries to kill him. They lash and hiss, in 30 years I've only been bitten by one who was an overaggressive eater who mistook my hand for food as I was feeding him. I actually go into this more in the mating section. They can climb trees, but they are not arboreal, they are a heavy-bodied lizard more suited to the ground. They are not as fast as Ctenosaura similis, but they're not exactly slow and lumbering, either.
link sexual maturity; clutch;
How big are the eggs? What color are they? What percentage typically survive? When do they crocodile eggs hatch?
3 inches or so, off-white to tan, in captivity 95%...I could not say what it is in the wild, crocs hatch in July, right before the iguanas lay their eggs.
the second sentence in the Distribution section sticks out somewhat, as it's more about behavior; same with the head-bobbing a bit later
I'll take a look.
"As of the year 2000, there has been talk of removing or relocating this population..." who is talking?
US Government, Dept of Interior, although, I have not heard much on this the past year or so.
"The rapid change in display structure between the colony of animals on Isla Magueyes and those on Cuba illustrated the potential of small founding population size as a catalyst to evolution with regard to communication or display." Sentence structure seems awkward, making it difficult to clearly understand what this means with a single readthrough. Next sentence also needs tweaking.
the last paragraph of mating and behavior has four sentences, all of which are cited to the same source; seems unnecessary, as a single citation at the end of the paragraph implies that all of the contents of the paragraph are cited to that source
Understood, but it doesn't keep certain people from filling an article with [citation needed] tags everyt ime they see a period not followed by a number.
Section "Distribution" should really be "Distribution and habitat", don'tcha think?
Good call!
still think the past paragraph on head-bobbing should be moved up a section into "Mating and behavior"
I would tend to agree if it was strictly about head-bobbbing, but in this instance it has more to do with communication based on a evolution of an isolated population in a new location than just animal courtship.
"The Cuban iguana is well established" last two words should be hyphenated, no? Also, I don;t think this needs to be cited as the following sentence cites to the same source (like the above example)
"According to Peter Honigsberg, a professor of law at the University of San Francisco: Wilner unsuccessfully made two arguments before the Court to hear his case; in his third argument he changed gears by mentioning US law and the Cuban iguana." I'd suggest changing the colon to a comma, and the semicolon to a period. Also, the phrase "changing gears" seems vernacular and might be worthwhile rephrasing. (p.s. I feel a bit dorky criticizing prose after Tony below has okayed it... I just call 'em like I sees 'em; feel free to ignore the suggestions)
I fixed it.
"According to Honigsberg, the Supreme Court to agree to hear the case." not a sentence
it was until someone decided to have intercourse with it, without even having the common courtesy to oppose it here.
first paragraph of "Decline" has triple-redundant citations
I'll remove such cites, then if it's a point of contention...and point them here when they start sprinkling [citation needed] throughout.
The second author in Ref #17 has a different format; needs page #'s
fixed
Refs 18,19, 27 needs italics for Latin names
fixed
Is ref 21 foreign language? Should be specified. Also p., not pp.
It's in English and Spanish
Refs 28, 32 pp. -> p.; both need publisher location (as well as #33)
Got it all except for the publisher's location, in hindsight I will go back and add this, the reviewer who said, "None or all" apparently gave me another piece of bad advice.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ19:21, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did a literature review and it seems to me like there's been quite a few interesting or relevant studies published that aren't used as sources in the article. Any comment on why these articles weren't used? Based on a quick reading of the abstracts, it seems that some of them have some interesting information that should be at least mentioned in the article.
Title: Natural history and morphometry of the Cuban iguana (Cyclura nubila Gray, 1831) in Cayo Siju, Cuba
This is also a very good article, especially for myself as a keeper and breeder, but this may go a little in depth for a wiki article. Although I'm loathe to do it, would you reccomend me adding a further reading section and incorporating some of these?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ17:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For fun, consider cleaning up (i.e. removing) empty citation template parameters. Also, accessdate parameters are not required if no external web site was accessed
Support Interesting, readable article that will make a fine addition to the FA list. Personally, I like the new further reading section with additional high-quality sources of detailed information about the topic. It makes it a better resource and a springboard for students researching the topic. Is it overkill for a general-readership article? Maybe, but its conveniently at the end, so those who aren't interested can ignore it. Sasata (talk) 06:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks!
Support: mostly well written. Well done.
"Unlike in most iguanids, females guard their nest sites"—First two words ungrammatical.
fixed
"Although the wild population is in decline because of predation by feral animals and habitat loss caused by human agricultural development, their numbers are increasing as a result of captive-breeding and other conservation programs." Does "their" refer to "feral animals"? It's the only preceding plural.
refers to iguanas, I changed this
"has served as"—"has been". I caught myself writing that very phrase a few weeks ago.
I went with "has been" leaning toward "has been used as"
"aforementioned"? This is pretty awkward. Is a back-reference necessary?
fixed
Why is "fingerprint" linked? Why is "scavenging" linked? And "prehistoric"? These are all common words with no particular technical dimension here.
I think someone was trying to help me out, although I did link fingerprint
"However" is better at the start of a clause.
fixed
"Special" begs too many answers. I'd just remove it.
removed
"... the animals are treated well and protected by U.S. forces stationed at the base. An unusual incident occurred when a detainee in the prison assaulted a guard with a bloody tail torn from a Cuban iguana in May 2005." I don't quite see this last sentence as pertinent to the topic. It's too easy to interpret it as "US military—good. Islamic terrorist prisoners—bad." Why tempt providence with such a sensitive issue?
I thought it was an interesting anecdote, although the original version I heard from a Marine was the guy hit the guard with the whole iguana, the paper reported it as the tail. Not going so much for a good guy vs bad guy angle. Original version I simply had "treated well and protected by residents of the base", either at peer-review or GAN they asked me to clarify. It does set up the human rights question made by the lawyer as "Iguanas treated better than people"
U.S. then US. Personally, I much prefer the undotted version, but it must be consistent.
fixed
"By way of comparison"—two redundant words?
fixed
The difference of 20% was in what respect?
number of head bobs and duration of head bobs, pauses, etc. Here are two distinct species, communicating in a very similar manner...maybe as close as Middle English and Modern English. Whereas the same species moved to another island and isolated is speaking a totally different language. It's hard to write it without making it sound as boring as a dog's ass.
Comment – This sentence is currently at the end of Background: "Yardley won the toss and elected to bat." I think this should be in the day one summary, as it is in the articles on the Fourth and Fifth Tests.Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now for an extended review from me, not just a one-off comment. Most of it looks good, as I would expect. I only found a handful or so of issues that jumped out at me while reading the article:
Day One: "who compared him to Harold Larwood, a 1930s paceman targeted batsmen with Bodyline." Missing "who" in this sentence.
Day Two: "with on foot on the edge of the cut strip and he was unable to evade the ball." Second word is a typo.
Day Three: "and Emmett edged it to wicket-keeper Tallon, who took it in his right hand with taking a dive." Is "with taking a dive" a cricket phrase? If not, it doesn't sound that grammatical. Should it be "while taking a dive"? (can you tell I'm unfamiliar with cricket?)
"There position was aided by the Australian fielders". "There" → "Their".
"and was again dropped by Hassett. Hassett." Try to adjust so that repetition of the name isn't there.
(undent) Support – Another excellent cricket article from YM, which is of similar quality to the articles on 1948 Ashes matches that are already featured. Prose looks fine after the fixes above, and the sourcing is top-notch, as one would expect from YM. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
I had to run both dash and date scripts on the article. Shouldn't have to be done by a reviewer. Australian date formats required.
thanks for the date thing. I usually just prefer hardcode as being easier to work with because some text editors don't tell the diff between dashes n/m and hyphen and kill it off when I put it in there.... YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 14:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The names of anglophone countries (there are seven, I guess) are not linked unless there's a really good reason to do so. Many readers won't get it, that the opening links are to cricket teams. You have to be in the know to realise that they're called, loosely, by their country name. I don't suppose that they could be piped to "the Australia and England national cricket teams"? Generally skilfully linked.
Absolutely. It's Test cricket. I would say it's an important cap, as test cricket sounds like it's a warm-up or a practice match, an unfortunate ambiguity. --Dweller (talk) 22:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"so Australia thus"—two causal words? "and thus Australia".
after ... after, plus another after a few seconds later. There's a lot of need for chronological sequence items, so have you two or three that can be rotated, or standard methods for rewording some instances? "at ... at". Watch those reps throughout. Where is my script for flagging close reps? Who will write it?
I concur. The best cricket RS do usually capitalise the t. I suppose it's a reflection of the superstitious awe in which they are held by English and Australian cricket fans; and a lot of those elsewhere. --Dweller (talk) 22:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- prose, detail, sourcing, and style all look good. A few comments but nothing serious enough to affect support:
Prefer to see an image in the lead para.
Pedantry, but set a new record is redundant. If you set a record, it's new by its nature. I know everyone uses "new record" but that doesn't make it correct.
Likewise, it'd be nice to fight common but incorrect usage of "England" and "Australia" (as in the cricket teams) taking "their" as the possessive instead of "its" - you could fix and keep everyone happy by changing "England" and "Australia" to "the English" and "the Australians". I realise of course that this usage is probably in all similar articles and therefore a lost cause but still... ;-)
Support I supported at the last FAC - doing so again. :) This is such an interesting article. If you want a cool story to tell friends, read this FAC! ('Cuz that is why we read FACs.) Awadewit (talk) 23:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Real life commitments got in the way of my adding my support the last time. This is a well-written and engaging article and such a fascinating story. Graham ColmTalk23:31, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment section one daldorf asylum it is stated that she was "admitted to the Elisabeth Hospital in Lützowstrasse." Now my german might be a little rusty but strasse means "street" as far as I am aware. Now that would imply it is a street and that the hospital is "on" lutzowstrasse. Can anyone verify the statement or correct me? Seddontalk|WikimediaUK01:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do find the change in name in reference to anna anderson half way through the article somewhat confusing. I do think that we should use a standard name throughout the article. Seddontalk|WikimediaUK01:52, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the idea of using "Anderson" throughout because it pre-empts the part where she becomes Anderson, weakens her introduction as an unknown, and I prefer the biography to be in chronological order. Perhaps we should consider using "Anna" instead of "Tschaikovsky" and "Anderson", since the first name is common to both identities? DrKiernan (talk) 09:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsSupport:
Cecilie signed a declaration that Tschaikovsky was Anastasia, but her family implied she was suffering from dementia.
Might "her" and "she" not be confusingly referring to Cecilie or Tschaikovsky? Maybe this can be reworked to be clearer?
Is there a way to either confirm which is it, or to link it to a general condition to help readers, such as me, who might be unfamiliar with what sort of medical condition it is? Jappalang (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I can't tell what the illness was in modern terms. The sources just say a tuberculous/tubercular infection complicated by Staphyloccal infection. DrKiernan (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"... Melnik coached Tschaikovsky with details of life in the imperial family."
Source?
The two sources supporting this clause are given earlier in the sentence: Godl, John (August 1998), "Anastasia: The Unmasking of Anna Anderson", The European Royal History Journal (VI), Oakland: Arturo Beeche: 3–8 and and Gilliard, Pierre (1929) La Fausse Anastasie quoted by von Nidda in his commentary on I, Anastasia, p. 198. DrKiernan (talk) 15:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps those two sources (at the ends of the preceding clauses) should be shifted to the end of the sentence instead? I am not too hard on this though. Jappalang (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"She became apathetic and depressed, was declared insane on 19 September 1916, spent time in two lunatic asylums, and went missing in early 1920."
There seems to be a lot of ideas in this single sentence, perhaps break it into two shorter ones?
This word might be of a higher level than the average 16–18-year-old student is familiar with (I had to look it up). The way it is used is eloquent, but is it possible to substitute with simpler words to achieve the same result?
"... "still unique", though the database of DNA patterns ..."
By "unique", did Dr Melton mean that he would not have expected such a pattern to match? Or did he mean that such a matching pattern cannot be confused with others? In the latter case, then it should be "... "still unique"; the database of DNA patterns ...", right?
"Other works based on the premise that Anderson was Anastasia, written before the DNA tests, include biographies by Peter Kurth and James Blair Lovell. More recent biographies by John Klier, Robert Massie and Frances Welch that describe her as an impostor were written after the DNA tests proved she was not Anastasia."
Not sure these require cites (since they are the sources for this article), but if needed, then I guess a footnote pointing this out would suffice.
"Similarly, other animated versions utilize parts of Anderson's discredited escape story for inspiration, and include scenes of Anastasia's escape on a cart or characters such as Alexander Tschaikovsky."
Source(s)?
The discredited escape story is discussed in the preceding section, but the scenes described are from a straight-to-video/dvd cartoon that I have never seen. The only way I can deal with objections to this sentence is to remove it. DrKiernan (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with the discredited escape story (described earlier), but the description of scenes does need a cite, even if from the video (as a primary source) itself. Jappalang (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, I find this to be a very well written and comprehensive article that was enjoyable to read. I would support it once the above are cleared up. However, ... (see below)Jappalang (talk) 14:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Amendment) File:Anna1922berlin.jpg: turns out the book this photo was in is still copyrighted in the US. (Previous statement) File:Anna1922berlin (bigger).jpg: The supporting {{PD-US}} is wrong (creation does not equal publishing). If the photo was verifiably sold to a newspaper agency before 1923, then it should be {{PD-1923}}. If not, then the first publishing is 1929 in Gilliard's book. In that case, {{PD-US-1996}} should be used instead.
There seems to be a misunderstanding. What I meant was that the Commons copy can be used, but its copyright status in the US should be clarified either to PD-1923 or PD-US-1996, depending on the publication date. Jappalang (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Crap, I was reminded by your statement to check if Gillard's book and its contents were copyrighted (and renewed) in the US. This turned out to be the result; registration AF3490 on 6 Mar 29, renewed R171272 on 28 May 56, which means the book and contents are copyrighted in US until 2025 (1929 + 95 + 1), according to http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm (works published abroad 1923–77, complying with US formalities). This photo cannot be stored on Wikipedia or Commons as a "free" photo. Since we have File:Franziska Schanzkowska.jpg (with a modified enlargement of the face), this might not even qualify as fair use identification. Unless there is some critical commentary on this photo (or of the subject's appearance in it), it should be excised. Jappalang (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two points: (1) Gilliard does not hold copyright of the photograph. He can't justifiably renew or claim copyright on something he doesn't own. If necessary, it can be cropped to remove his text, but the text is probably too simple for copyright to apply. (2) File:Franziska Schanzkowska.jpg is a picture of Schanzkowska. The other is a picture of Anderson. I think the lead picture should be of Anderson. DrKiernan (talk) 08:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
US old copyright laws did not care for "true ownership" of a work until the Universal Copyright Convention was established in 1952 (and accepted by US in 1954); the first to register a work's copyright in US actually got the US copyright (several court battles resulted because of this). Gilliard holds the US copyright (by US laws) if he registered it first in US. Even if not, by registering the copyright, Gilliard by proxy registered it for the (unidentified) photographer, which is still valid for US copyright. The point is unless the book disclaims copyright for the photo, it is copyrighted under US law. This would be moot if it can be proven that the photo was published in another foreign source before it ever appeared in Gilliard's book. Jappalang (talk) 11:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your rationale works for me; although it can be argued that placements of it and the image of Schanzkowska could be exchanged in the article, I will leave that for others to debate on. One point though, by registering for US copyright, Gilliard did announce an intent to publish it in US; whether he produced physical copies in the States and whether they are in English are other matters. Thus, I leave this unstruck but considered it cleared. Jappalang (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Kszenyija Georgijevna of Russia.jpg: when was this copy of the painting first published? It is certainly not Les Portraits de Philippe A. de László, which can be read here at Internet Archive. UK copyright laws deem publishing as "copies made available to public via sales or other legal means". As László's works are private commisions, they are unpublished until copies (such as this grey-and-white photo) are released. László died in 1937, which means any of his work published during 1923–77 could have their US copyright renewed by the URAA treaty.
I never claimed it was published in 1922; I'm using that source to demonstrate that it was painted before 1923. I do not know when it was first published as a photograph or print. DrKiernan (talk) 15:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, understood. Regardless, painting (creation) does not equal publication, and we would need a publishing date for that black and white photo (or an earlier reproduction in any form). Jappalang (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, those four photos are verifiably in the public domain. I would suggest having Rachmanioff's photo, which looks more outstanding than photos of Imperator. Jappalang (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Ingrid Bergman and Yul Brynner in Anastasia trailer.jpg: This capture is a copyviolation. The claim that its source (the trailer) did not bear a copyright notice is false; it is prominently displayed at the 0:41–0:47 mark of the trailer, and the copyright was renewed by 20th Century Fox as well.
Rowe's shot of Bergman is verifiably in the public domain (taken during his duties as an NPS employee). Note that the Anastasia shots are copyvios because the trailer bore a copyright notice that was renewed, not because of its movie version (I should note that Sabucat is the primary cause for all erroneous uploads of trailer shots with his claim that all trailers before 1968 never carried copyright notice). Jappalang (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After reading the introduction, I don't really get the point. Perhaps add some context about Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia, and why claiming to be her could be taken seriously. --Apoc2400 (talk) 16:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Peter Heywood was the Bounty mutineer who got away. Denounced, captured, tried and sentenced to hang, he was given a Royal Pardon and then allowed to continue his naval career, becoming a favourite of the top brass who were happy to accelerate his promotion. How did this come about? There are murky elements in this story—hints of bribery, perjury, and class prejudice, and somewhere along the line three men were executed. Heywood's story throws some fascinating light on the workings of the British Navy in the late 18th century, and provides a new dimension to the oft-told tales of "Captain Bligh and Mr Christian". Thanks to Ruhrfisch for the map, and to others for generous peer review help; I believe this is now ready for FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 22:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support I reviewed the prose in this article extensively at the peer review and see no point in repeating it. In my view, it amply meets the FA qualifications. Well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: after correcting some stuff on the images (and uploading a few better ones), they are all verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 00:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsSupport:
"In 1791 Heywood and his companions were captured in Tahiti by the search vessel HMS Pandora and transported back to England in irons. This voyage was prolonged and eventful; Pandora was wrecked on the Great Barrier Reef, four of Heywood's fellow-prisoners were drowned, and Heywood himself was fortunate to survive."
My reading gave me the initial impression that he was "transported back to England" by Pandora, which becomes a puzzlement since it was wrecked on the Reef. Could this be clarified?
I've amended to: "...by the search vessel HMS Pandora and held in irons for transportation to England. The subsequent journey was prolonged and eventful;..." I hope that is clearer.
"... Douglas, Isle of Man, the fifth of the eleven children ..."
Is this where (between "... Man, the fifth ...") a dash would be better, or by breaking the following clause into a short sentence?
I've gone for the second of your options, as a dash looks intrusive.
"... as sailing master to Captain James Cook on the latter's final voyage."
Suggestion: "... as Captain James Cook's sailing master during the explorer's final voyage."
Suggestion accepted.
File:Tahiti scene frontispiece.jpg's caption seems to be wrong... the title of the drawing is "George Young and his wife (Hannah Adams) of Pitcairn Islands" (as from the book), which seems to indicate this is Batty's vision of life at Pitcairn Islands, not Tahiti...
Yes, I didn't read the title carefully enough. George Young was the son of the mutineer Edward Young, and was not born until after the events described in this article. The picture probably dates from the 1820s, and is barely relevant to Heywood's story. Rather than contrive a connection, I have replaced the image with Bligh's sectional drawing of a breadfruit plant (which was in an earlier version of the article but was dropped because of image clutter). Brianboulton (talk) 15:21, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"... all the 14 surviving Tahiti fugitives ..."
This makes it sound like the fugitives were Tahiti natives... "... fugitives in Tahiti ..."?
Agreed, done
"... Montagu of Hector ... was "my particular friend" ..."
Heywood's or Paley's friend? Perhaps drop "my" from the quote and identify whose friend Montagu was?
Done
Did Heywood ever go back to Tahiti for his first wife and daughter?
There is no record that he did.
"The only known child of Heywood ..."
I think you meant "The only confirmed child of Heywood ...", right?
Yes, OK
Great read, Heywood's court-martial was so full of COI then... I would like some clarification of the above niggles first. With the clarifications, I support this article for FA. Jappalang (talk) 00:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I made the map for the article and made a few comments about it in peer review, where I felt it was already ready to pass FAC. I have made one edit since and reread it carefully. My only quibble is whether it would be better to identify the breadfruit plant illustation as Sections of the breadfruit plant, from Bligh's book, rather than the current Sections of the breadfruit plant, drawn by Mackenzie (since the image page makes it clear that the identity of Mackenzie is not known). Well done, Ruhrfisch><>°°13:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your map work, and for your support, also for your suggestion relating to the breadfruit drawing. I will fix the caption accordingly. Brianboulton (talk) 17:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportOppose While this article is very well-written and engaging, I feel that it is not quite comprehensive. More needs to be said about Heywood's career after the Bounty incident. I read the Dictionary of National Biography entry on Heywood and it provides some more details, such as his participation in what appears to be the Napoleonic Wars, and it also lists the following source, which may be helpful: A. C. F. David, ‘From mutineer to hydrographer: the surveying career of Peter Heywood’, International Hydrographic Review, new ser., 3/2 (2002), 6–11. I look forward to supporting this article soon. Awadewit (talk) 18:00, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I can add more about his post-pardon career, though I am reluctant to add too much. The main focus of the article must be on the part of his life which was notable. His later career, while honourable, was far less notable, and had he not been the ex-Bounty mutineer he would, I am sure, have remained one of hundreds of naval officers who served their country honourably but anonymously. I have plenty of sources, including the DNB entry (but not the David article to which you refer) and it should'nt take too long to put something together, but give me 24 hours. Brianboulton (talk) 01:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I have expanded the "Subsequent career" section to give more details of Heywood's various appointments and activities after he resumed his naval career. There's a bit more about his hydrography activities, and mention is made of what seems to be his one and only direct engagement with the French during the Napoleonic wars - the clash with the frigates in the Bay of Biscay. Other events are touched on - but his career was worthy rather than action-filled. He was mainly well away from the heat of battle. I think the general tenor of his career (conscientious, honourable obscurity) is properly represented with the new material. I have had to slightly reconstruct the latter part of the article, but nothing of significance has been removed. I am happy with this balance. Let me know your feelings. Brianboulton (talk) 00:05, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - these improvements are even better than I was hoping for - BB, you always exceed expectations! I am happy to support this article. Awadewit (talk) 03:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support an excellent biographical article providing just the right amount of background on the mutiny. As Awadewit, I would also be interested to know a bit more about his actions during the Napoleonic Wars. --DavidCane (talk) 23:36, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (I added a note that the ODNB requires a fee, since it's only free to library card holders in the UK) Ealdgyth - Talk16:17, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's no hoax. For about 200 years it was popularly believed in England that publicly auctioning your wife was a legitimate alternative to divorce. Hopefully this little historical backwater will be of interest to some. MalleusFatuorum22:28, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: I'll sign off on CPI being the correct measure here for the worth of money over time, even though a £100 wife seems more like a luxury good than part of the unskilled consumer bundle :). The low sums indicate that wives were clearly being treated as consumption goods, and their productive qualities assumed (or at least treated as standard or defrayment of operating costs). Fifelfoo (talk) 02:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for inciting my wife to knock my head for "Don't get any ideas!" while reading this article. Support for writing this fine article that highlights the status of women in ole English society and the early evolution of their rights. Jappalang (talk) 02:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just a tweak; William Murray was commonly known simply as "Lord Mansfield"; you might want to change that. Other than that, consider this a support. Ironholds (talk) 17:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't, that's the point. See the image tag "William Murray, 1st Earl of Mansfield viewed wife selling as conspiracy to commit adultery." and the paragraph next to it "Lord Chief Justice William Murray, 1st Earl of Mansfield...". It is normally just "Lord Mansfield". Ironholds (talk) 00:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComment: An engaging read in which I found a few relatively minor issues for consideration:-
The lead contains the statement "I do not think I have a right to prevent it". This is part of a statement which is cited in the main text and therefore does not need to be cited in the lead. Likewise, the statement about cases of local Poor Law Commissioners forcing husbands to sell their wives rather than having to maintain the family in workhouses is cited both in the lead and the text, as is the story that in 1913 a woman claimed that she had been sold to one of her husband's workmates for £1.
True, but I went with the principle that extraordinary claims need extraordinary citations. I'm quite happy to remove them if it's a blocker for you. My understanding though is that quotations have to be attributed immediately after their appearance. Happy to to be proven wrong though. --MalleusFatuorum23:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are right about quotations being cited on appearance. What I would do is put an uncited paraphrase in the lead and put the quote, cited, into the text. That avoids have double citations for the same information. Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"the wife's consent was a necessary condition for the sale" is a slightly odd statement, bearing in mind that the sales were not recognised in law. Perhaps it should be preceded by "by common agreement..."
I don't see the issue here. The wife wasn't dragged unwillingly to the sale, and several of the accounts make it clear that if she onjected to her purchaser then the sale didn't go ahead. Whether that was "legal" or not seems irrelevant, as the law itself was at that time eqiovocal. --MalleusFatuorum23:20, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that "necessary condition" is a legal, or at least legalistic, phrase, and its use implies the existence of rules governing wife selling procedure. These "rules" were by common agreement, not law. This should be clarified, hence my suggestion above.
"Of the 158 cases in which occupation can be established, the largest group (19) were involved in the livestock or transport trades, 14 worked in the building trade, 5 were blacksmiths, 4 were chimney-sweeps, and 2 were described as gentlemen..." That accounts for 44 out of 158. It is hard to imagine what the remaining 114 different occupations might have been - just curious.
Do you intend to respond? Can you think of 114 different occupations each so different from one another that none can be classified as a group? Perhaps the quoted figures are incorrect? Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've checked, and the figures are exactly as Thompson gives them. He's only analysed certain occupations into groups; the remainder, such as pauper (2), pensioner (2), gingerbread hawker (1), woodward (1), returned from transportation (2), etc., aren't categorised. The point he's making is that it wasn't just a rural peasant custom. Even gentlemen and at least one Duke bought a wife. --MalleusFatuorum22:43, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I find this section confusing: "The lengths to which some of those involved in such sales would go to legalise the trade is demonstrated by a bill of sale for a wife, preserved in the British Museum.[nb 3] It is contained in a petition in 1768, to a Justice of the Peace in Somerset, presented by a wife who about 18 months previously had been sold by her husband for £6 6s "for the support of his extravagancy". The petition does not object to the sale; rather that her husband returned three months later, and demanded more money from his wife and her new "husband"."
First, the wording "The lengths to which some of those involved in such sales would go" sounds POVish rather than neutral
I'm not sure how you can infer a POV here. The phrasing implies that people sought to make the ritual and sale as legal as possible, which was the case. Parrotof Doom23:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, your wording implies that the steps people would go to to legalise the trade were extraordinary. That's the POV. Otherwise you would simply say "Those involved in such sales took steps to legalise the trade, as demonstrated by a bill of sale for a wife, preserved in the British Museum" or similar neutral wording. Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "Those involved in such sales sometimes attempted to legalise the transaction, as demonstrated by a bill of sale for a wife ...". --MalleusFatuorum18:39, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Secondly, what does "it" refer to in "It is contained..."
"is demonstrated by a bill of sale for a wife, preserved in the British Museum.[nb 3] It is contained in a petition" - perfectly clear to me that "It" refers to the bill. Parrotof Doom23:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The last object mentioned before "it" is the British Museum, so "it" should be replaced by "The bill..."
Thirdly, I can't see that what follows indicates "the lengths to which some would go..." etc
Drawing up a bill of sale, akin to a legal document, is a pretty clear indicator that the ritual was seen by many as perfectly legitimate, and not merely an archaic ceremony for a bit of fun. Parrotof Doom23:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The point I'm trying to get across is that divorce was really only an option for the super-rich, the wealthiest of the wealthy. I think "very wealthiest" is OK, but I'm not wedded to it if others object. --MalleusFatuorum19:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's been such a long time since we used £sd that I had to check whether or not it was usually written with dots, but it seems that it was, so I've added them where they were missing. --MalleusFatuorum19:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I am nominating this for featured article because it's been copyedited several times by Malleus, been through a very helpful peer review, and now is ready to shine on the big stage. Well, as much as any medieval bishop can shine... Yet another (and hopefully last) of the Gregorian mission bishops, this guy's a bit more shadowy than even Mellitus, since we don't have the gout or the miracles to colour up his life. Ealdgyth - Talk22:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm starting to dream about Gregorian bishops (this may be non-actionable)
I promise you that this one is the last one for a while. They raised the requirements for Featured Topics, so I had to bring two more bishops up to FA standards...Ealdgyth - Talk14:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Justus (occasionally Iustus) Given that Latin lacked a "J", wouldn't it always have been Iustin in the Latin texts? In other words, isn't one just a transliteration of the other?
Support Not the most exciting of the bishops, is he? Nevertheless, a clearly written and (I take it from reading the commentary on the talk page here) a comprehensive article. Awadewit (talk) 04:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, well, he wasn't supposed to hit FAC, but they changed the requirements for Featured Topics and he was more FA-able than my other choices... Ealdgyth - Talk13:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Overall excellent and of a professional standard. Just a couple matters of clarification that tripped me up while I was reading:
"survives in the Textus Roffensis and a copy based on this" Unsure what "this" is referring to.
clarified to "... survives in the Textus Roffensis, as well as a copy based on the Textus in the 14th-century Liber Temporalium." Ealdgyth - Talk20:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two seemingly contradictory sentences are confusing me: "after Laurence's death, Mellitus became Archbishop of Canterbury" and then "Bede's account of Eadbald's conversion states that it was Laurence, Justus' predecessor at Canterbury". The former suggests that Mellitus succeeded Laurence as Archbishop of Canterbury (which I believe is true), and the latter suggests (at least to me) that Justus succeeded Laurence directly.
Predecessor doesn't always mean immediate, unfortunately. I could drop the "predecessor" and make it "Bede's account of Eadbald's conversion states that it was Laurence, an earlier Archbishop of Canterbury..." if you like. Ealdgyth - Talk20:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is an article on a known but little-discussed (in the West) area of Russian classical music, one that helped shape Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky as a creative personality and determined his outcome as a composer. After much work and input through peer review, for which I am thankful to my fellow Wiki editors, I believe this article is of a depth, bredth and overall quality to be nominated for FA status. Jonyungk (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
No dab links or external links (dead or otherwise)—good.
Alt text looks good. I had thought of adding details to the Martin painting alt, but they'd distract from the ultimate point of the article IMO.
I couldn't find any full dates (i.e. with months, days, and years); make sure any that are present have a consistent format in the prose and in the refs.
Is the article intended to be in UK or US English? At present there are spellings from each in it (e.g. UK recognised, counsellor and programme but US theater, color and program). It really ought to be consistent throughout. Happy to give it the once-over if you say whether it should be UK or US. - Tim riley (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Only a handful of changes: I have of course not tampered with any UK spellings within quotations. I'll go through the article in the next few days and offer any more general comments. At first sight it looks like a plausible FA candidate, but more a.s.a.p. - Tim riley (talk) 20:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Later: This is an excellent article, highly readable and full (but not too full) of relevant information. Everything that seems to need a reference has one (though see my comment below on one para in the Tchaikovsky's private concerns about the Five section) and no one source is relied on too heavily. I look forward to adding my support for its elevation to FA. In advance of that, a few, not on the whole earth-shaking, comments:
You use lower case for the definite article in "the Five" but capitalise the article in "The Mighty Handful." Is this deliberate? (I notice you use a lower case "the Mighty Handful" later in the article.)
"verbally" – I think you mean "orally" – verbally means with words (spoken, written or printed)
m-dashes – I believe the WP standard for such parenthetical dashes is to use n-dashes with a space on either side, but someone with a better knowledge of the MOS may like to confirm or otherwise
"the older Rimsky-Korsakov" – ambiguous: it could be read either as meaning Nikolai when older or else some other, senior, Rimsky-Korsakov. Something like "and, by then, Rimsky Korsakov" might be clearer.
Early years
"the first presentation of an opera occurred in Russia" – "occurred" is a strange word here: perhaps omit it?
"composers, these composers" – suggest "composers, they"
"Likewise, while the first public concert" – there are two likewises in this sentence. Perhaps "similarly" for the second?
"native-born" – tautology: just "native" is enough
'The Five
"style and color that was different" - style and color that were different?
Rubinstein and the St. Petersburg Conservatory
"performed and composed in Europe" – As St. Petersburg and Moscow are in Europe too, perhaps this should read "Western Europe" or some such
"Leipzig" – I'd be inclined to blue-link this, I think
Difference in Russianness
"thrown out of the Preobrazhensky Lifeguard regiment" – rather colloquial for an encyclopaedia article, possibly?
With the Five
"that resulted Romeo and Juliet" – missing "in", I think
"After hearing Tchaikovsky play the final movement of this symphony" – a piano reduction, I imagine: perhaps worth spelling out?
"a tone poem based in this subject" – based on?
Balakirev
"…Russian Music Society (RMS) orchestra. His replacement at the RMS was Balakirev." A bit convoluted; you could simplify on the lines of "…Russian Music Society orchestra, and was replaced by Balakirev." (RMS does not occur later in the article, so the parenthetical mention is not needed)
"he looked forward to discussing the piece with him on an upcoming trip to Moscow" – it isn't clear which of them would be making the trip; the casual reader may not immediately remember at this point who was based in St. Petersburg and who in Moscow. Might be worth clarifying.
"its charming orchestration ... its structural novelty, and most of all by the freshness" – this would read more easily if you replaced the "by" with dots.
Stasov, The Tempest and the Little Russian symphony
"center the plot around the heroine" – some people get frightfully exercised by "centre around", insisting that it should be "centre on". I am indifferent, personally, but I just mention it.
Tchaikovsky's private concerns about the Five
"he wrote to von Meck" – Russian usage may well be different but in German usage when referring to Herr X von Y by surname alone, the "von" is not used – thus one refers to e.g. Karajan or Bismarck not von Karajan or von Bismarck. I just raise the point so that you can assure yourself that including the "von" here is idiomatic – e.g. does David Brown so refer to her?
"Tchaikovsky's analysis of each of the Five was unsparing". This paragraph contains three strongly expressed judgments: are they all covered by the one reference at the end of the para? Decidedly POV if not.
"Tchaikovsky declined the project at first, claiming the subject left him cold." This reads as though Tchaikovsky was lying. A more neutral verb such as "saying" might be safer.
Support - This is an excellent candidate for FA, in my opinion. It demonstrably meets FA criteria 1(a), (c), (d), and (e) and 2, 3, and 4, and speaking as a devotee of classical music (though not a Tchaikovsky specialist) I see absolutely no reason to doubt that it meets criterion 1(b) as well. In passing, let me add that it is one of the best-written articles I have had the pleasure of reading for quite some time. Loud applause! - Tim riley (talk) 08:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have peer reviewed this twice, with the second PR closing only a day ago. The article has improved considerably in the time since I first reviewed it and all of my concerns from both PRs have been addressed. In the interest of full disclosure, I made the composite lead image from free images. The article is interesting and very well-done. Ruhrfisch><>°°22:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have reviewed this article twice for peer review, and it has improved much since the first version I read. Jonyungk has made the article both more in-depth and more accessible, and I believe that it now solidly meets all FA criteria. Ricardiana (talk) 19:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support: An excellent article, part (I hope) of a Tchaikovsky series that becomes ever more compelling. I heavily reviwed this at the PR stage and have no further comments to add besides sincere congratulations on a fine effort. Brianboulton (talk) 23:47, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Looks like I misread Dave's concern; the image is PD in its country of origin (Russia) on Jan 1, 1996, because it is unlikely its author (who took the photo of young Tchaikovsky in 1863) would only have died within 70 years of Jan, 1996 (admittedly a very fine line; compare that to Balakirev below).
File:Rubinstein repin.jpg—missing most information such as author dates, source, date of publication (if the license is to be valid), et al.
A higher resolution version of the same image under the same file name was on Commons, with complete author, dates, etc. I deleted the version here so the Commons version is now used in the article, Ruhrfisch><>°°23:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Was File:Feodor Chaliapin as Ivan Susanin.jpg ever published? That would be the better license to use, and due to the Russian text I can't be sure this is valid (no mention of original copyrights again).
A source of where this image was gotten is definitely needed. The Russian text on the image's page only states where it was taken. Without an author (and with creation just at the start of the 20th century), it is not definite that the photographer died more than 70 years ago. Jappalang (talk) 00:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the book states the painting was an 1860s creation, then it (the page and quote) should be stated and cited, but it would be more definite if the actual author (and life) can be cited. A 20-year-old in 1869 might live to be 80 in 1929. Although his works would be in public domain in this year, URAA might have restored copyrights if his works were first published post-1922. Jappalang (talk) 00:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As with the image of the young Tchaikovsky, I would hate to delete this image from the article, but should it be removed at this juncture? Jonyungk (talk) 01:21, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Turns out that while there are so many books with references to Balakirev, illustrations of him are scant... Of my initial search, I could only find this illustration in volume 40 of The Windsor Magazine (1914) that could be stored at least on Wikipedia. Jappalang (talk) 02:19, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is quite similar to the one in the Outlines. Anyway, I am reminded that the composite and the portraits of the Five should be on Wikipedia instead. Although published in a US publication, it is more probable the images were first published abroad and reprinted here (hence their source country copyrights are yet undetermined). The Tchaikovsky image is fine on Commons since it was created during his visit to United States (and first published there as yet, thus qualifying as a United States work), but the Five would be better here on Wikipedia. Jappalang (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found what looks to be an oil pianting of him on the Naxos website and have emailed Naxos asking for details on the artist and date. Since he died in 1910, I thought there might be a good chance of it being PD. If it is old enough to be free, there is a much higher resolution version of it here. Ruhrfisch><>°°02:30, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(out) Thanks very much for your help with all this. For the time being, I will delete File:Balakirev1860s CuiIP 73 600.jpg from the article and hope to put another image in its place eventually. For instance, how would I go about capturing the image from The Windsor Magazine? It shows a relatively young Balakirev, which I had hoped to use since it shows how balakirev looked at approximately the time he met Tchaikovsky. Jonyungk (talk) 17:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It appears I was somewhat wrong here in using the {{PD-US-1996}} tag. This sketch is a reproduction of an c. 1871 portrait in Russia. The portrait has been reproduced (pencil form) in 1871; hence that constitutes first publishing then. This sketch, a derivative work of the portrait, inherits the original's copyright; hence {{PD-1923}}. Now changed. Jappalang (talk) 05:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but there is one passage that presents minor issues for ensuring the text stands alone from the lead and can be understood by a lay reader. The passage is this:
In 1856, Balakirev and Stasov started gathering young composers through whom to spread ideas and gain a following.[26] Balakirev's first meeting with Cui came that year. Mussorgsky joined them in 1857, Rimsky-Korsakov in 1861, and Borodin in 1862.
Without reference to the lead, the reader has no idea who Stasov is. Then, we are introduced to Cui, about whom we have been told nothing in the body text and who, unlike Mussorgsky, R-S and perhaps Borodin, is unlikely to be a name familiar to a lay reader. Then, when the reader counts heads, s/he comes up with six, not Five - because it has not been explained who Stasov is and in particular that he is not a composer. There needs to be a little more detail here, including changing "Balakirev's first meeting with Cui came that year" to "First to meet with them that year was composer César Cui". The article seems otherwise a creditable piece of scholarship with outstanding prose and good linking. My reading of the above interchanges is that image issues have now been resolved to the satisfaction of one or more experienced image editors. Can someone disabuse me if they think otherwise? hamiltonstone (talk) 05:25, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You bring up a very good point. I have changed the passage in question to read, In 1856, Balakirev and critic Vladimir Stasov, who publically espoused a nationalist agenda for Russian arts, started gathering young composers through whom to spread ideas and gain a following.[26] First to meet with them that year was César Cui, an army officer who specialized in the science of fortifications. Modest Mussorgsky, a Preobrazhensky Lifeguard officer, joined them in 1857; Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, a naval officer, in 1861; and Alexander Borodin, a chemist, in 1862. Balakirev, Borodin, Cui, Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov composed in their spare time, and all five of them were young men in 1862, with Rimsky-Korsakov at just 18 the youngest and Borodin the oldest at 28.[27]Jonyungk (talk) 13:40, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article traces the career of an officer who, if perhaps not quite as vital to the history of the Royal Australian Air Force itself as its "father", Air MarshalSir Richard Williams, probably outshone him in terms of the impact he had on Australia's military and society in general, and was certainly at the top for achievements in rank and office being the RAAF's first appointee to the (de facto) role of Chief of the Defence Force, and its first Air Chief Marshal. Currently GA, as well as A-class on the MilHist and Aviation projects, I believe it's now ready for the bronze star... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have made a quick reading for grammar. On the whole, there are no glaring issues, but there are a few sentences that need to be looked at. I really only made it through the section on the 1930's, and I hope to get the rest done soon.
Scherger quickly took to the art of flying open-cockpit biplanes,[3] and gained a reputation as a skilful if occasionally reckless pilot, being berated early in his career by his flight commander for "inverted and very low flying". (Comma splice in the first part of the sentence. Also, the" if occasionally reckless" part needs to be surrounded by commas or hyphenated as a compound adjective.
He had married Thelma Harrick on 1 June 1929; they had a daughter, Jill. (This sentence seems unnecessarily concise). How about "He Married Thelma Harrick ..., and they had a daughter named Jill." or something of the like.
Faced with the frightened woman and the enraged husband crying that he would "shoot the bitch", Scherger knocked the man down with a poker; the officer was placed under arrest while his wife was given shelter off the base, and subsequently resigned his commission. (The last phrase seems like a comma splice) Mrathel (talk) 15:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Mrathel, but re. the other two points could I plead ignorance and ask you to explain a bit more about what "comma splice" is and/or the problem with it and/or a suggested alternative? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your confusion, as comma splice is totally the wrong term. These clauses have unnecessary commas:) In the first sentence, there is no need for the comma after biplanes as the subject does not change between the two clauses. If you simplify the sentence, u can say "Scherger took to the art of fly biplanes and gained a reputation...", which is correct while "Scherger took to the art of flying biplanes, and gained a reputation..." is not. The third sentence is more tricky but has the same issue, as there is no subject in the final clause even though it is separated by a comma and a conjunction. Mrathel (talk) 17:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I get you. Okay, grammatically I agree re. the first one, I think I probably included the comma as much for the sake of the citation than anything, but I can push that along. Wouldn't have thought we really needed the hyphens (emdashes I suppose) around "if occasionally reckless" but will do it if you insist... ;-) Re. the third, I'm not entirely happy with the sentence anyway so more than happy to take suggestions while I think of yet another way to rephrase it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two commas removed - actually I've decided I don't mind that last sentence after all now (perhaps it was losing the comma!)... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
I have a concern with the use of information from the archives. That's pretty much primary sources, and it should be used with extreme care, to only cite the most uncontroversial of facts. Anything more risks getting into WP:OR territory if you attempt to interpret the source.
I agree, so apart from some newspaper clippings and letters that are in there, I'm really only employing his file for the bare facts of promotions and postings. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Where do they get their information though? Are they relying on accurate information or is it out of date? What's their reputation for accuracy? Ealdgyth - Talk17:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, seriously now, per this they're ultimately a subsidiary of Telstra, Australia's major telco, and they claim their maps come from UBD, which is about as reliable as street directories get in this part of the world... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support – an excellent article that meets all of the criteria. I do, however, have a few comments, but they are not enough to withhold my support:
"the officer was placed under arrest while his wife was given shelter off the base and subsequently resigned his commission" - I think this sentence needs to be tweaked slightly, as the final clause about his resignation somewhat seems to be referring to the wife.
Rejigged a bit.
Is it known why he taught Richard Casey to fly?
Something to do I guess. Seriously, no more than what's there. I didn't find it that fascinating myself, but since I wanted to use the picture I figured I may as well mention it in the text.
Is it known why, exactly, Scherger was awarded his CBE and CB?
Only the CB has a (basic) recommendation - tks for reminding me, I found it while making the expansion then forgot to use it...
The presentation of access dates in the cites are inconsistent.
Template issues but worked around them anyway.
In regards to the pain-in-the-butt "Honours and awards" box, there is no mention in Scherger's service record of him being awarded the Australian Defence Medal, which was actually established in 2006, and I could not spot any mention that he was awarded a "MALAYA" clasp to the General Service Medal.
Heh, re. the first point, somebody got confused with the UK Defence Medal; re. the second, page 3 of the personnel file does mention Malaya.
"Promoted to". This occurs again in the lead; can you check the rest of the article for the omission?
"Promoted <rank>" as opposed to "promoted to <rank>" is pretty common military terminology in my experience, though I welcome feedback from any military editors who disagree.
It's for everyone, not just military readers. "Promoted colonel" interferes, from my unfamiliar stance, with promoted him as a colonel (PR?). The readers can do without this grammatical jargon. Tony(talk)02:14, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's curious that omitting the "to" doesn't seem a major issue for other non-military readers in similar articles, but I see that I've used "to" elsewhere in this one as well, so will go with the latter for consistency. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"the Northwestern Area"? If the military jargon is without "the", it's still uncomfortable for normal humans, but we could bend if it really would look strange to you.
As a regional command, forgoing the definite article is standard terminology. I suppose I could make it clearer by saying "North West Area Command", but preferred to avoid the qualifier after "commander" appearing immediately before.
Can you pipe to just "Darwin, Northern Territory" to reduce the blue dilution of all of those important links in the vicinity?
No prob.
-> "served in a variety of senior posts including"
Fair enough.
"at the age of 79"? You're leaving little grammatical words out ... is this a change in your style?
Not really, but editors in other articles of mine have sometimes removed the little words as they see fit and it hasn't bothered me too much either way...
"Melbourne" hardly needed as a link, is it? They know it's in Australia from the context, and the article on Melbourne is kind of huge and irrelevant to the topic we want to drive them down right now ...?
See where you're coming from but this seems a bit inconsistent when you've felt the need to add "Australia" to the infobox even though it seems fairly clear that he and Victoria are Australian - WDYT?
I grant you the Melbourne article is not particulary germane to this article, although I'd have thought some non-Australian readers might like to at least know where it is on the map, but if this is part of a campaign to get fewer blue links in articles it may be bigger than this review alone. I say that purely because my level of linking in this article is pretty consistent with many FACs before and, while that doesn't automatically mean it's correct, neither does it mean a cleaver should be taken to the thing before I understand just where you're coming from. For instance, if the link to Melbourne goes, why not the one to Darwin as well, and not simply the one to Northern Territory? If the argument is that Darwin is more 'important' to the Scherger story than Melbourne, well no the town isn't in itself, the fact that it was bombed is - and bombing of Darwin is already linked. By the same standard, I think we can assume that Washington DC and Adelaide can lose their links, while Nadzab and Morotai should retain theirs, but what of Singapore and Kuala Lumper? I ask out of genuine interest, since my own linking policy is to err somewhat on the side of what people mightn't need and simply needn't bother clicking, rather than what they might need and can't click. What I have noted is that I've linked some equipment types next to names of equipment, e.g. SE5 and fighter where the latter isn't necessary if one follows the former, so will take care of those at least. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PS "He was very pro-Australian, and why not?" (quote) ... the last phrase sure does show the cultural cringe, which is a good reason to leave it in. Tony(talk)13:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the absence of any new comments for the past day or two, just an update that everything raised has been actioned or otherwise acknowledged as far as I'm aware... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Darwin_42.jpg isn't one I originally uploaded from the Australian War Memorial but I can probably remove the watermark and upload a new copy in the next day or so. Re. history of Adelaide_Airport_Tarmac_1967_Retouched.jpg, doesn't the original version, Adelaide_Airport_Tarmac_1967.jpg that was already on Commons, provide satisfactory info? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentWeak oppose - after reading through about 2/3rds of the article, I'm concerned that it reads a little too much like an advertisement in places (such as the Spa section), and that the prose isn't of sufficient quality to attain FA status. It could use work from a good copyeditor, as right now it reads as though a series of good and interesting facts were removed from a list, and placed in prose, one after the other. I don't think its that far from FA status, but it needs a good few hours of work. Parrotof Doom12:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*Is it necessary to have all those citations in the lead section? They're not required (as long as the relevant text is cited in the article body), and make it a little off-putting to read. Parrotof Doom 12:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC) - thanks. I'll trust that they've been moved to cover the relevant parts of the article body. Parrotof Doom00:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"These include studio apartments, one- to four-bedroom suites" - this may be an American English thing but the "one- to four..." doesn't sit right. How about "a mixture of suites containing one to four bedrooms" or similar? Parrotof Doom12:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"sales@trumpchicago.com. "Trump Organization Project overview" (PDF). Press release. http://www.trumpchicago.com/_files/pdf/brochure.pdf. Retrieved 2007-05-09." - where is it written in this document that the publisher is sales@trumpchicago.com? A link to the page which contains that document may be more helpful. Also, when was that document published? Parrotof Doom12:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well the brochure, as nice as it looks, doesn't give me any details. It doesn't give a date of publication, or who published it. Apart from it being hosted on the trumpchicago.com site, I don't really have any inclination to view it as a reliable source. You'd be better off changing the url in the citation to the above link, and in the title appending something like (click "brochure" link at the foot of the page). It just helps people see where their information is coming from. You may be able to find a rough approximation of the publication date by viewing the .pdf file in Adobe software - perhaps there's a 'document creation' field in the file header.Parrotof Doom23:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"The building surpassed the record for the world's highest residence," - I think you need to specify some kind of criteria here, either in a footnote or by rephrasing. I very much doubt that there aren't residences in the world that are higher than this (the Himalayas for example). Nit-picking I know, but it isn't correct. Parrotof Doom12:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It still isn't right. It may contain an apartment, or living space, that is the highest residence above the ground floor of a skyscraper, but the building is certainly not the highest residence above ground level. Parrotof Doom23:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not here to offer instructions, only advice, but what I think you're trying to say is that the tower contains a residence which, contained in a single building, is the highest residence above a ground floor. You just need to word a sentence to that effect, correctly. Parrotof Doom00:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"By this time, construction on the exterior of the building had passed the 53rd floor." - by what time? Jan 30th? If so, remind us with prose. Parrotof Doom12:28, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are several instances of critical reaction to the building, its design, and its features. They're mixed throughout the article. It would be better (IMO) to have them moved to their own section, and perhaps we could have some popular commentary on the building, news reports, public opinion, etc. Parrotof Doom12:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see you have gotten involved in editing the content. Would you care to start a "Critical reception", "Critical opinions" or "Critical commentary" section and move content that you think belongs there.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't. I'm happy to help out here and there, but such large structural changes should be the responsibility of the nominator(s), if they desire to make them. Parrotof Doom14:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"The hotel was designed so that 53 spa guest rooms could be connected to spa via a large circular staircase.[45]" - the article states that it was designed - is this no longer the case? The second half of the sentence doesn't really make any sense to me. Why wouldn't the guest rooms be connected to 'spa' (whatever that is), and I cannot mentally picture the staircase, where it is, or how it connects anything. Parrotof Doom12:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The hotel was designed with a large circular staircase that connects 53 spa guest rooms to spa" - the phrasing suggests a past tense, which might imply that although it was designed with this staircase, it was never actually built. You should, if the staircase exists, say "The hotel has a large circ...". What is a spa guest room, and what, in this context, does "to spa" mean? How does the staircase do what the article claims? Why is the staircase notable? Parrotof Doom16:30, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I have watched this article expand and evolve from a distance (not a major editor) for quite some time now. It has been reviewed on multiple occasions and consensus has been reached on contentious issues from the past. In my opinion this article is well written, interesting to read (considering the subject matter), comprehensive, well researched, and neutral. It has a well written lead, appropriate and well thought out structure and very good citations. The article's length is good - concise yet informative. The images of the article compliment it amazingly well. Therfore I support its promotion to Featured Article status. DR04 (talk) 14:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
Current ref 10 (See the same..) has a bare url in it...
According to the Info section on the World Architecture News website, it appears that anyone can register and submit new projects to the building database. But the site's news articles and editorials (as opposed to the project database) seem to be reliable, as they are written and edited by an editorial team. As such, I think the editorial piece above would qualify as a reliable source from a mainstream news organization. Cheers, Rai•me23:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – Unfortunately, my upcoming college finals mean that I lack the time needed for a full review. However, on a quick glance I did notice a paragraph in Construction that flows poorly, in my view at least. That would be "Residents are zoned to Chicago Public Schools. Residents are zoned to Ogden School and Wells Community Academy High School." A lot of repetition between these two sentences, and I think they would be better served as one larger sentence. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:16, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose SupportTony(talk)08:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC) —breaches of WP:OVERLINK. See my unlinkings just in the lead. In particular, the less-specific Illinois (twice), which will be shoved in the readers faces at the start of the link-target "Chicago"; "story", "parking garage" (gee, that's mystifying), and "grand opening". These are common terms, and dilute the high-value terms in the vicinity. In addition, you'll see that I've reduced the huge pipe for the "second-tallest" (list). I've prevented "1" from hanging at the end of the line.[reply]
The prose seems much better than I've seen for this type of nomination. I noticed "January 30, 2008. April 28, 2008 marked"—could the rep be eliminated by "... 28 that year ..."?
Images: TINY. Why? The "site of the tower" is just a colourful blotch, and should be at least 240px to make out what on earth it is. Then the caption would fit more comfortably, a bonus.
Whatever the article is called it's the Gold Coast, not "Gold Coast", and please pipe it this way: the Gold Coast, Australia. Lots more overlinkings here, and of course throughout: it needs a link audit. Tony(talk)15:33, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When I tried to undo this edit in response to your comments, it said this edit cannot be undone. By accident, I started editing from that edit. I am reverting to your changes and then adding my respndent changes. Sorry for the mixup.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Withdraw oppose, but I'm intrigued: why is it necessary to use a USA or city-sate or any such template? Isn't it simple just to write it out? Then any editor can control it, and the clutter is gone. Tony(talk)12:38, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean you prefer [[city, state|city]], [[state]] or city, state unlinked to using the templates? I am not sure what you mean by "any editor can control it, and the clutter is gone." It seems to me that {{USCity|city|state}} or {{city-state|city|state}} were created for the purpose of more efficient code. Is there consensus at FAC not to use either of these templates? It seems I have used them in most of my other FAs and I am unaware of consensus changing on this issue.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:50, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Look, "swimming pool", "spa", "wine rack", "wine room" (gee, what could they all mean?). "Mezzanine"? (But "mezzanine loan" is fine as a link.) I have unlinked them, since your article already contains many blue links to useful and relevant technical terms. But linking to some international definition of what a "spa" is? That's beyond the pale. The readers speak English, yes? "Pillar"? "Clay"? Tony(talk)01:42, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SupportLeaning to support: This article endured one of the longest FACs on record in 2008 (274kb). I first encountered it last summer when I gave it a very detailed peer review and some copyediting. Unaccountably I missed the article's second FAC last autumn. I have just read it again and am pretty impressed, but as always there are issues that niggle:-
"The design of the building incorporates three setbacks..." Even with the link, this reads oddly to those like me who equate "setback" with misfortune. Why not change it to "setback features", so that we underinformed folk are not confused?
Mammoth sentence: "Each of the setbacks is designed to reflect the height of a nearby building; the first setback, which is on the east side of the building, aligns with the cornice line of the Wrigley Building to the east, the second setback located on the west side aligns with River Plaza to the north and with the Marina City Towers to the west, and the third setback located on the east side relates to 330 North Wabash building (formerly known as IBM Plaza)." This is over-wordy and repetitive, and should be broken up anyway. Here is my suggestion for beginning this section, losing a dozen or so words but without loss of information: "The design of the building incorporates three setback features designed to provide visual continuity with the surrounding skyline, each reflecting the height of a nearby building. The first setback, on the east side of the building, aligns with the cornice line of the Wrigley Building to the east; the second, on the west side, aligns with River Plaza to the north and with the Marina City Towers to the west. The third setback, on the east side, relates to 330 North Wabash building (formerly known as IBM Plaza)."
The second and third paragraphs of the "Architecture" section are not about architecture. They relate to the general character of the building but not to its design or architectural features, as does the first paragraph. Perhaps the section title should be broadened?
The Restaurant and Spa sections still have, for me, a slightly adverty feeling. I won't pursue this, however, except to ask for the removal of the phrase "and, for customers who arrive sufficiently early,", which does seem overtly promotional
"In October 2005, a fleet of thirty concrete trucks made 600 trips to pour 5,000 cubic yards (3,800 m3) of concrete, within a single 24-hour period, to create the 200-by-66-by-10-foot (61.0 m × 20.1 m × 3.0 m) concrete 'mat'" Can I suggest a rearrangement of this sentence, to give it a bit more impact? "Within a single 24-hour period in October 2005, a fleet of 30 concrete trucks made 600 trips to pour 5,000 cubic yards (3,800 m3) of concrete, and thus create a 200-by-66-by-10-foot (61.0 m × 20.1 m × 3.0 m) concrete 'mat'."
Legal issues: the section deals with three quite separate issues, each with its own paragraph. Readers may not realise when one issue has finished and another begun. The second paragraph should begin: "In a separate legal development, Donald Trump was sued..." etc. It would also help to have a rough date (month, year) for when Trump was sued by Radler.
"Critical review of the spire by Kamin is that it is not aesthetically complimentary." I don't what this means. I guess the required word is "complementary" (meaning "forming a satisfactory or balanced whole"), with e after the l, not "complimentary" with i after the l. Even so, this is Kamin's critical opinion rather than his "review". Suggested rephrase: "Kamin's critical opinion is that the spire is not aesthetically complementary".
"...the economic slowdown that followed the financial crisis." Define the financial crisis; in a few years your readers may not know what you're talking about.
"...but also notes that the hotel may be a bit too decadent." Surely the last phrase must be in quotes - I'm sure it's not your POV. And perhaps a word of explanation as to what Fodor meant?
I've corrected WP:LAYOUT and WP:ACCESS issues that shouldn't need correcting for repeat nominators (commons links belong in External links, and templates go before images in order of items in sections: please take note for future noms). What are the numbers in italics here:
Keegan, E. (2005). Drama over Trump's Chicago tower. Architectural Record, 193, 37.
Vaccaro, P.K. (2002). Modernist vocabulary: modernism is reemerging in what some consider a return to the true spirit of Chicago design. Urban Land, 61, 114–115, 118–121.
The italics are not correct, so I don't know what they want to be. Volume numbers are bolded, issue numbers are not in italics. I suggest using a cite journal template for correct formatting, and decide whether those numbers are volumes or issues. Why do you continue to list publisher and work for The New York Times? Are there two New York Times? Work=The New York Times is sufficient. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but then you might not have figured out how to do it. Not to imply that you didn't already know--just pointing out that with such an overwhelmingly complex template, many editors get in over their heads and use it without knowing how to make it work properly. Gene Nygaard (talk) 07:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You should not use cryptic, jargon terminology (perhaps geographically limited in usage too, and certainly not something that will be understood very many of ou readers) such as "low-e glass" without any explanation. It needs clarification. Warning--trying to figure out how to do so by following low-e to the article it redirects to might be an exercise in futility; that article is a shambles. There's a suggested merger on the talk page that might lead to an article which better explains it.
The e in low-e should be italic; its a symbol for emissivity. the other article you should check out, and variable symbols are italicized. But you shouldn't be using that symbol in an article like this, with only one brief mention of this term. Spell it out as "low-emissivity" instead. At least then most readers will know everything they need to know about it; that its some special quality of the glass, and that they probably won't understand it any better if they look it up, so they can just continue reading. Better than seeing a strange something that isn't really a word and wondering what the hell that means or just assuming it is a typo or vandalism. Gene Nygaard (talk) 07:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Imagine, if you will, a time when white men with lots of money and facial hair traveled the country and ruined their health, all for the love of some old rocks? Such was the life of Edward Drinker Cope, a brilliant and occasionally arrogant man of science who discovered literally thousands of new species. His personal feud with one Othniel Charles Marsh resulted in the greatest expansion of American paleontology ever: the entire United States wasn't big enough for the two of them. Read on, chaps. The article recently went through a pretty thorough peer review, and I believe it meets criteria. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)19:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
No dab links or dead external links, and ref dates look consistent. Cool.
Alt text looks good. Given the length of some of them, I think the text of the handwriting with the whale could be added to its alt (see WP:ALT#Text).
Oppose Support I've made a handful of changes to the prose to make it a bit more readable; they should probably be checked to ensure I haven't changed any meanings or misunderstood anything. All in all it's an interesting article, but it needs some work on the prose, the structure, and in some places perhaps a little more detail. Nev1 (talk) 19:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Cope's financial fortunes soured after failed mining ventures in the 1880s, and was forced to sell off much of his fossil collection": awkward phrasing, it sounds like Cope sold his fossils because he was doing well financially.
The sentence still reads strangely, I think the problem is with the word "soared". How about something like "In the 1880s Cope invested in mining to support his work. Though initially profitable, the mines stopped producing in 1886 and Cope was forced to sell off much of his fossil collection"? It's a bit clunkier, but I think clearer. Nev1 (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I could have sworn that said "soared" last time I looked. Long day. Oh well it's not the first time I've made a fool of myself and won't be the last :-) Nev1 (talk) 20:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the second occurrence of "Society of Friends" it is mentioned in parenthesis that it is associated with the Quakers; this should be done on the first occurrence.
It might be worth using Template:Inflation for the monetary figures to give the reader a rough idea of how much it would be today.
"but in letters to his father later on in the war": what war? This comes out of nowhere.
"Edward considered working in the South to assist freed African-Americans" is this the American south or south Europe? It's not clear especially given that the title of the section is European travels
When letters are burned, the implication is that they no longer exist so "Many of Edward's journals and letters from the time period do not exist, for he burned them upon his return from his European" could be simplified to "Edward burned many of his journals and letters from the time period upon his return from his European". Also what does "the time period" refer to? Just his travels through Europe? Would it make more sense to put this sentence at the end of the section as a way of rounding it off rather than at the start of the second paragraph? As it is, the narrative jumps around a bit. The same is true for much of the section as after Cole burns his journals at the end of his travels we are told of the possible reasons he left.
"Though Marsh had two university degrees in comparison to Edward's lack of formal schooling past sixteen, Edward at the age of twenty-three had published 37 scientific papers in comparison to Marsh's two published works" a bit long-winded and there's some repetition.
When it is mentioned that Marsh and Cope initially seemed to be friends, it might be worth reminding the reader that they would later become rivals.
I think the reader is left wondering for too long how the "feud" originated, especially since it is mentioned that Marsh tried to damage Cope's reputation before their disagreement is mentioned or even explained. The implication of mentioning Cope's prolific output (especially when comparing it to that of Marsh) is that it was professional jealousy, and I was surprised to learn that it was because Marsh rubbished Cope.
It is a tricky situation to deal with, perhaps a line could be added explaining that the rivalry stemmed from Marsh showing Cope up one time, but I'll defer to your judgement.
When Marsh is mentioned I think it would be helpful to explain why his friendship with Cope is important. What was he studying at university, would he later become a prominent palaeontologist?
It feels like in places there are details missing, for example why did Cole stop his cave visits? Was it because he no longer had time or did something in particular put Cope off?</ref> Oh well, if it’s not explained nothing more can be said about it. Nev1 (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Could you explain what he was looking for when "In the autumn of 1871 Cope headed farther west to the fossil fields of Kansas", or was it simply any fossils he could find?
"he maintained this pattern from 1871-1879": including the break downs from exhaustion? This could do with a little more explanation (even just something along the lines of "he ventured into the desert every summer and wrote up his findings in the winter from 1871 to 1879").
A note about why Thomas Henry Huxley is significant would be useful; it could be as little as saying "…little impact on anyone save palaeontologist Thomas Henry Huxley" so readers know he was relevant.
"Cope's relations with Marsh turned into a competition for bones between the two, known today as the Bone Wars": repetition of "bone", would "fossil" suffice on the first occurrence? Of course, fossils doesn't refer exclusively to bones, so I don't object too much to this repetition.
"While Lakes sent Marsh some 1,500 pounds of bone, he also sent Cope some of his found specimens": "some of his found specimens" is awkward.
"one of the most recognizable dinosaur recreations of the time period": awkward phrasing again, is "period" necessary?
The last sentence of the Bone Wars section seems tagged on as an afterthought, can it be linked back to Marsh's position as chief palaeontologist?
"[Marsh's] position at Yale meant he had guaranteed access…": what position at Yale? This is the first time it is mentioned.
Unless it was proven, I'd recommend adding "alleged" before misallocation to the following: "No congressional hearing was created to investigate the misallocation of funds".
Was Marsh removed from his position with the Survey as a result of Cope's actions or for some other reason?
"[Cope's] wife cared for him when she herself was not ill": did she return to be with Cope or did he go to here? Was she often ill? Nev1 (talk) 19:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for the review. I believe I have addressed most of your points above, adding bits to clarify and whatnot. I've rearranged the European travels section to two paragraphs, hopefully the flow is more logical and clear now. I've also tried to elaborate on some of the questions you had; as to why he never went cave-trekking again, Osborn only mentions it and doesn't give any clues; I suspect it's simply because Cope's attentions wavered, but there's no elaboration either way. As to the mentions of Marsh... they really can't be crammed in elsewhere, but I think it's still important to have them outside the Bone Wars section (because the Bone Wars really focuses on 1877-1892, although the wider feud lasted until the death of Cope.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)22:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, it looks like you got everything. The only outstanding issue is the first point, but it's pretty minor so I'm switching to support. Nev1 (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jane P. Davidson. "Edward Drinker Cope, Professor Paleozoic and "Buffalo Land"". Transactions of the Kansas Academy of Science (1903-), Vol. 106, No. 3/4 (Autumn, 2003), pp. 177-191
Jane P. Davidson. "Bonehead Mistakes: The Background in Scientific Literature and Illustrations for Edward Drinker Cope's First Restoration of Elasmosaurus platyurus." Proceedings of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia, Vol. 152, (Oct. 14, 2002), pp. 215-240
Theodore Gill. "Edward Drinker Cope, Naturalist-A Chapter in the History of Science".The American Naturalist, Vol. 31, No. 370 (Oct., 1897), pp. 831-863
Peter J. Bowler. "Edward Drinker Cope and the Changing Structure of Evolutionary Theory" Isis, Vol. 68, No. 2 (Jun., 1977), pp. 249-265
Walter H. Wheeler. "The Uintatheres and the Cope-Marsh War". Science, New Series, Vol. 131, No. 3408 (Apr. 22, 1960), pp. 1171-1176
Benjamin S. Creisler. "Why Monoclonius Cope Was Not Named for Its Horn: The Etymologies of Cope's Dinosaurs." Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, Vol. 12, No. 3 (Sep. 3, 1992), pp. 313-317
Alfred S. Romer. "Cope versus Marsh Cope versus Marsh". Systematic Zoology, Vol. 13, No. 4 (Dec., 1964), pp. 201-207
Edw. Anthony Spitzka. "A Study of the Brains of Six Eminent Scientists and Scholars Belonging to the American Anthropometric Society, together with a Description of the Skull of Professor E. D. Cope". Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, New Series, Vol. 21, No. 4 (1907), pp. 175-308
"[Obituary: Edward Drinker Cope] [Obituary: Edward Drinker Cope]". The American Naturalist, Vol. 31, No. 365 (May, 1897), pp. 412-413
"Edward Drinker Cope". The American Naturalist, Vol. 31, No. 365 (May, 1897), pp. 414-419
Henry W. Fowler. "Special Anniversary Features: Cope in Retrospect". Copeia, Vol. 1963, No. 1 (Mar. 30, 1963), pp. 195-198
Philip P. Calvert. "A Bust of the Late Professor E. D. Cope". Science, New Series, Vol. 51, No. 1315 (Mar. 12, 1920), pp. 264-265
Henry F. Osborn. "Edward D. Cope". Science, New Series, Vol. 5, No. 123 (May 7, 1897), pp. 705-717
Theo. Gill. "Edward Drinker Cope, Naturalist--A Chapter in the History of Science". Science, New Series, Vol. 6, No. 137 (Aug. 13, 1897), pp. 225-243
I have not looked at all the sources you describe (The T.Gill cites are perhaps useful, I will have to check) but many are already incorporated by other sources--Davidson and Osborn's papers are part of their respective larger works, Spitzka is mentioned in Jaffe, et al. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)21:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I figured most of them would be incorporated in other works like you said, but the Davidson papers are published after the 1997 book you used in the article... perhaps she uncovered some other material, or has revised her interpretations of events? Sasata (talk) 21:33, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True, I'll double check. I've added in a bit from Bowler, Romer and Fowler; I will take a look at Davidson and the others tomorrow or Monday (I've got a final school project that's diverting my time.) I will ping you when I've scraped the above. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)22:27, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a tad from Gill (it also had a pic I've added in as well). The Davidson items are really tangental to Cope himself (the Buffalo Land one is about how some of Cope's research was used in a book and I don't think really fits the article.) Osborn's obit isn't really much different from his book in terms of any additional nuggets. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)20:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for checking out those sources, I'm content with regards to 1b and 1c now. Sometime later this week I'll actually read the article and put up a proper review. Sasata (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: Everything looks good to me (very good, actually; this is probably the best FAC I've ever reviewed as far as image description pages go). I'll note that File:Edward Drinker Cope’s study in 1897.jpg is listed as being in the public domain only by virtue of the Library of Congress asserting "No known restrictions on publication", and I've seen editors claim that that's not sufficient information. I disagree (especially given that the creator died in 1917), but am mentioning it here in case anybody else wants to take issue with it. Steve Smith (talk) 07:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, Jappa brought that up. I'm thinking to be safe, I'm ultimately going to remove it, but I'm just waiting to hear from the original uploader if he/she knows any additional info about publication. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)14:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: David, this looks very good. However, I made some adjustmentsand have some additional questions.
1. Where is the first Bakker reference? It appears to be missing. I added Bakker et al. (1990), but your text refers to a second Bakker source. Is it the Bakker and Dodson interview?
This appears to be a text error, as no other source anywhere (that I can see) supports this. I get nothing on the Paleobiology Database, nothing in my books, and nothing in Google. Also, the name itself is malformed and almost certainly should not be italicized ("-saur" endings are common names, not scientific names). I highly recommend removing this altogether. Even though the one source verifies it, nothing else does. Firsfron of Ronchester08:36, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for fixing it. I have another observation, and you may want to kill me, but here goes. As we well know, and as you wrote above, Cope "discovered literally thousands of new species". However, the text itself only mentions five taxa: Amphibamus grandiceps, Monoclonius, Elasmosaurus platyurus, Laelaps, and Camarasaurus. Five out of thousands seems very paltry. What links here indicates that between 500 and 1,000 articles link to Cope, and many of these are species he worked on, discovered, or named. There's no mention in the article of the dinosaur genus Amphicoelias, possibly the largest dinosaur which ever lived, both discovered and named by Cope. There's no mention of Allosaurus amplexus, Coelophysis, or non-dinosaurian taxa like Edaphosaurus, Champsosaurus, Lystrosaurus, and Peltosaurus. While many of Cope's discoveries have since usually been "sunk in" to other names, these last four have not. Nor has Camarasaurus, possibly Cope's greatest contribution to the Dinosauria. But the text only discusses Camarasaurus in one sentence. Coelophysis gets no mention at all, despite being the type taxon of a well-known family of theropods. WP's article on the Bone Wars (a fine article you wrote!) is much clearer about Cope's discoveries. In this article, though, the reader is left to wonder what Cope discovered, because it's clear from the text that he was very prolific, but almost nothing he described gets any mention. I would like to see more detail on his discoveries, and I'd be glad to assist (starting tomorrow night), if you're amenable. Firsfron of Ronchester08:27, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was just going to add a paragraph enumerating Cope's major taxa discoveries (with a sentence like "Cope described X in 18xx,[ref] Y in 18xy,[ref] and Z in 18xz.[ref]"), but then I realized you're using a different style of reference formatting than what I'm used to. Firsfron of Ronchester13:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've added a bit on Cope's publication of Amphicoelias, Lystrosaurus, Champsosaurus, Edaphosaurus and Coelophysis in two areas which appeared able to support the added text. I left out others, though, that just didn't fit where the text was going. The little I added, though, could help illustrate his discoveries to readers. Feel free to rework as needed. Firsfron of Ronchester05:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support: I was involved in peer reviewing this article and made many comments, much of which Dave has resolved. What is left would not significantly affect my decision to support this document, as the prose is good, the article comprehensive on Cope's life, and the sources are reliable. I originally pointed out in the review and agree with Nev1 that Marsh's feud with Cope could be better introduced than the sudden "Marsh's attempts to sully Cope's reputation ..."; however, it is not a sticking point. As mentioned, I am a bit more concerned over File:Edward Drinker Cope’s study in 1897.jpg (and this is where my conditional support comes in), but not opposing since Elcobbola and Steve Smith are not that concerned over it (it seems more likely it was unpublished until recently). So unless someone else points out that the photo has been published during 1923-1989 and is still copyrighted, I will support this article. On another note, would this alternate angle shot (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3b37400) be a better cluttered study photo? Jappalang (talk) 01:51, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the current image is better. While I like the greater prominence of the specimens and skulls on the cabinet, I think the other one is better in terms of overall composition (I'm not sure how easy it would be to reduce the white areas in the alternative image, or whether those areas are too blown out to be properly corrected in post. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)16:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, like I said, unless someone brings up evidence or convincing argument on why the study image is not public domain, my support stands. Jappalang (talk) 23:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments—parts are beautifully written, but there are many glitches, particularly after the lead. I started at "Support", then drew back to "Concerned".
"rapidly published"—ok, but it has an odd feel. Was it the negotiations or the printing presses that were rapid? Was it just the rapid publications that were debated? (That is one implication of the wording.)
Chain-like sentence structure: "His theories on the origin of mammalian molars and "Cope's Law", on the gradual enlargement of mammalian species, are among his theoretical contributions." The second "on" folds back into just Cope's law, or all of the preceding?
"His notebook, including this page, survives and contains copious notes and drawings of his travels." Perhaps "His notebook survives, including this page, and contains copious notes and drawings of his travels."
His mother died at the age of three?
"maternal" rather than "motherly" is better, I suspect. "have had".
"Alfred was also ..."—I know I'm an incorrigible "also" deletionist, but ... does it add anything here?
Comma after "Fairfield" could go (personal view).
acres convert to hectares, please. Thousands of square metres are very hard to visualise.
"Exotic" gardens were "a natural landscape"? "Natural" occurs again a few seconds later; this is yet more evidence that we need a script/bot to flag close repetitions of non-grammatical words. I've asked at the bot page and have been ignored ... :-(
The school was "the site" of much of the family's education? Bit odd. "... provided much of ..."?
"costing Alfred $500 tuition each year,"—add "in".
Old-fashioned to capitalise the initials of school subjects. I see "comparative anatomy" in full lower case below.
Logic problem: "Edward's letters home requesting a larger allowance show he was able to manipulate his father"—only if his dad acquiesced.
Remove "of time".
"Despite complaints about his schooling, Cope returned to Westtown in 1855, accompanied by two of his sisters." Who was complaining? The parents (typical nowadays) or the boy? Please go through every sentence defensively: try to extract double meanings or the wrong meaning, and fix where you can. That is how I'm reading/analysing.
"Biology began to interest him more"—more than his other subjects, or more than in the previous year? (See?)
The bot that doesn't exist yet picked up "prestigious school" twice in 15 seconds' of reading.
"Cope frequently obtained bad marks for quarrelsome and bad conduct." So if he'd tried harder at bad conduct they'd have given him an A for that subject? (Sorry, but I can't switch off my ambiguity antennae.) Also, "Cope" refers to the boy, but "Alfred" the father was also a Cope. I'd tend to use the boy's first name when in the vicinity of his dad.
"wholesome" needs to be in quotes to show that it's not WP's judgement. Perhaps I think farming isn't wholesome, no matter how profitable.
"Up till 1863"—"Until ...".
"Though Alfred resisted his son's acceptance of a science career, he paid for his son's private studies."—Would "pursuit" be better?
"scientific exploits"—bit pejorative, that second word?
"He also had a job during this period recataloging"—During this period, he took a job recataloging ...".
"over the next years he published almost solely on reptile and amphibians"—how many years?
I have addressed most of the above listed, and will try and go through the rest hunting for redundancies and such when possible. I'll see about getting an uninvolved person to look over it too. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)20:06, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
David, what's the latest status on this? Have you gotten the uninvolved person to look through and has Tony been asked to revisit? Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 14:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The people I've talked to have been busy, and weren't able to give me a definite time they'd be able to assist. I've gone through the article again myself and have asked Tony to take a look whenever he has the time. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)16:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Spot-check
"Due to his background in taxonomy and paleontology, Cope focused on evolution in changing structural terms, rather than Darwin's emphasis on geography and variation within populations." Keep the grammar parallel? "Due to his background in taxonomy and paleontology, Cope focused on evolution in terms of changing structure, rather than emphasising geography and variation within populations as Darwin had." Check please for content accuracy ... it looks better grammatically. Something had to be done.
Is this grammatical? "His original view, described in the paper "On the Origin of Genera" (1868), held that while Darwin's natural selection may affect the preservation of superficial characteristics in organisms, but that natural selection alone could not explain the formation of genera."
Nicer without the comma? ... through what Cope termed, "a continual crowding ...
Strictly "In fewer than 40 years as a scientist".
Minor issues: "Cope is today known as a herpetologist and paleontologist, but his contributions extended to ichthyology; he catalogued 300 species of fishes over three decades". Word order, sh .. sh.: "Although Cope is now known as ..., his ..., in which he catalogued 300 fish species over three decades". Was it exactly 300?
Some of the pics were tiny. Why?
I didn't oppose, above. I still don't, but the prose needs to be tightened up in such FACs. It's been here far too long, David. Tony(talk)11:11, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the above. As for image sizes, I've been leaving things at default in the hope that they'll be fine once the image thumb defaults get changed (whenever that will be.) As for how long this FAC has been open... I sure haven't asked for a stay of execution. It's up to them dastardly delegates to close, and lowly mortals such as me know not the hour and all that :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)14:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I did not reply here until now as I felt that the comments below adequately covered my concerns in such a self-evident manner that to note it would be superfluous. All my concerns have been adequately addressed. :) Fifelfoo (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned about the status of Capital Transport as a vanity publisher, due to their website, their lack of an editorial or submissions policy, and Rose being acknowledged in World Cat as the publisher for "Rose, Douglas (1999). The London Underground, A Diagrammatic History. Douglas Rose/Capital Transport. ISBN1-85414-219-4." The impact of sourcing an article so significantly from sources published by a vanity publisher would be to undermine its status in terms of 1b/c.
Although most of the books in the references list are published by Capital Transport, the company is not a vanity publisher, but a small specialist publisher on transport subjects - particularly those in London. A number of the books used for the article are published in association with the London Transport Museum (Horne's The Bakerloo Line - An Illustrated History, Day and Reed's The Story of London's Underground and Connor's London's Disused Underground Stations) and they are all sold by the museum's shop and in larger bookshops with specialist transport sections (for example, Waterstone's in Piccadilly). I believe that it is reasonable to assume that the museum and Waterstone's would only be selling these titles if they were considered to be good quality works.--DavidCane (talk) 11:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned about a source reliance stemming from Capital Transport publications separate to the status of the publisher. What other monographs of the tube system exist? Journal Articles from history of technology and science / engineering?
I don't think the fact that they have the same publisher has any particular relevance to the coverage of the subject matter within the books themselves. There have been many books published on the London Underground - Wolmar lists nearly fifty which he used as source materials for his book which covers the whole system, including a couple of the others used directly here. The books used are all recent editions and are effectively a distillation of the primary and secondary sources available to the authors. With regards to technological/engineering issues, I have tried to avoid including much on these matters except in the construction section and have provided wiki-links to relevant articles on tunnelling shields, caissons, etc. which cover these subjects in more detail. --DavidCane (talk) 11:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned that the extensive use of the London Gazette indicates that a High Quality Reliable Source may not have been used to establish the narrative / weighting of the article; and subsequently sections of the Gazette have been cherry picked to establish a historical narrative that may be substantially Original Research, ie "With the extension to Paddington still under construction, the LER published a bill in November 1911 for the continuation to Queen's Park.[80] => [80] ^ London Gazette: no. 28552, pp. 8615–8620, 21 November 1911. Retrieved on 2009-11-07." Some of these uses are clear, but in some the passing of an act is being used to imply that substantive things happened in the real world.
In most cases the London Gazette references are used to provide a direct primary source link to the actual bill that Badsey Ellis has referred to in his book as he has generally referred to the actual primary documents themselves and describes the planned route and station locations in his narrative. In the specific example above, ref [80] is not provided to support the introductory "With the extension to Paddington still under construction," bit, just the date of the bill's introduction. The fact that the extension to Paddington was under construction at the time is covered by ref [76] and ref [55] in the last paragraph of the previous section which states that construction began in August 1911 and was completed with the opening of the station in December 1913. --DavidCane (talk) 11:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text: The large images all have some, but the bottom navbox and the images that make up the diagram in section "Opening" don't have it. The diagram's images need alts because they aren't purely decorative and give more info on the represented stops. is vastly improved and looks good. (updated on 16:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC))
Not sure this is going to be possible without a complete rewrite of the BSicon templates which is unlikely to happen easily or soon. The diagram is a visual representation of what's in the text anyway and I am not sure that it would be very useful to an unsighted reader as I expect that a screen reader will read left to right across a row rather than up down. I will see if there is a way to make a screen reader skip this diagram. --DavidCane (talk) 17:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Technically possible, but in reality impractical. The map is created by WP:ROUTE which uses many icon images to comprise the whole map. Forcing alt description text into the diagram means that you need to input each desciption for each icon, in the case of Baker Street and Waterloo Railway, you'll have to repeat the same text >50 times. Ultimately the ineffectiveness to display a proper alt text from WP:ROUTE diagram shouldn't challenge the qualificaition of the article. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think 88 and 89 were different because they were copied over from one of the companion articles. Changed all retrieved dates to full UK style date.--DavidCane (talk) 17:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I have fixed many of the alt text issues noted in the previous comment by editing and adding alt text to {{Bakerloo line navbox}} and by adding alt text to {{Rail-interchange}}. However, the diagram at the start of the Opening section still generates dozens of images that lack alt text. This diagram is generated by {{BS&WR route map}}, which uses {{BS3}}, which in turn uses {{BS-overlap}} to generate the problematic images. {{BS-overlap}} uses {{Superimpose}} to generate the image, but neglects to pass the |base_alt= parameter to {{Superimpose}} so the images are displayed without alt text. Can you please fix this? {{BS-overlap}} is undocumented, and {{BS3}}'s documentation is quite cryptic, so I'm reluctant to charge in and fix this stuff myself. Eubulides (talk) 04:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. (1) Text on maps unreadable. (2) Images mostly tiny. I've boosted the size of some of the pics, so you may wish to audit the placement. (3) The prose could do with an independent copy-edit—not a long job, though.
The maps: I think you created them, so can you massively increase the size of the text? The year range should have an unspaced en dash in the first one (see MOSDASH). I've boosted the px size of the Baker Street excerpt below, but the text is still too small, and most of the image is just white space. Same for the others. I'm not sure a real photo (Oxford Circus station? The temporary pier?) wouldn't be better in the lead, with the current lead map further down, centred, and larger (i.e., not squeezing text at all—even now, it squeezes). The 1906 Gate pic is tiny AND squeezes text (a breach of MoS).
I will see what I can do about the sizes of the maps and the text they contain. I want to keep the text size in the route progression maps consistent from one to another so that the scale can be maintained.
I was trying not to force the image sizes, but will be happy to make the gate stock one bigger. If it is moved after the text in the section with a {{clearleft}} afterwards, I think it will stop the pinching.
I would like to keep the main map at the top because it gives more of a sense of the article than the pier and the Oxford tube station pictures that only relate to a small aspect of the story. --DavidCane (talk) 00:51, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Example of copy-editing needed, in the lead: "fraud" could be "fraudulent behaviour" ... unsure. "It" refers to Whitaker or LGFC or BS? "connected with" would avoid "to" x 3. Remove "covering"? "In 1933, it and the rest ..."—this is awkward.
I think fraud is more appropriate; "fraudulent behaviour" seems a bit equivocal
Geographic route map of the Baker Street & Waterloo Railway
Well, my eyesight is pretty good, and I have great difficulty reading the text for the station names. There's a lot of white space, so why can't the font-size be bigger? "1906–33" or "1906–1933", with unspaced en dash, not spaced hyphen. Hands up anyone here who can make out a single word in the key. What is the point? I suspect the point is that you're expected to click to get full res (it's rather too full, actually); this is hard for people with slow connections, and inconvenient for everyone. The alt text could be a little more descriptive. The caption might just say "Map of the Baker Street & Waterloo Railway route and its extension over nearly three decades". But being able to read the key is critical to the colour and line coding on the map; the key should be a rectangle, tallish, with font-size twice the current. If it can't fit along the left side, put it in the sea of white on the right? Tony(talk)12:22, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by Support assuming the issue regarding the maps is sorted out to everyone's satisfaction. As David says above,my concerns regarding this were all resolved here. – iridescent 217:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning toSupport: I think the maps are now fine, and so is the prose. I continue to be impressed by the extent of industry and research which is behind these railway articles, and look forward to giving this latest one my full support. The issue holding me back at the moment is that of the PD status of three of the images. I am not an expert image reviewer, my comments being based on my understanding of advice I have received in the past. I hope an expert will come soon and clear the matter up:-
Whittaker Wright: when was this image first published? My understanding is that the 70-year rule applies to unpublished works, and if the image was not published before 1923 then it may not be PD in the USA.
The Whitaker Wright image is by Harry Furniss who died in 1925. Wright killed himself in 1904 following the famous trial. The Badsey-Ellis book, from which the image was scanned, ascribes the source to the National Portrait Gallery. The NPG page for the image (which I couldn't find when I made the scan) indicates that it is from a set titled "Prominent men: drawings by Harry Furniss, circa 1880-1910". It therefore seems likely that it was published before Wright's death and no later than 1910. --DavidCane (talk) 22:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Prominent men: drawings by Harry Furniss, circa 1880-1910" is not a publication but a database created by the NPG for Furniss's sketches. This image is likely a draft of Furniss's caricatures. I would advise not using it because of the 20-year publication rights (of previously unpublished works) in the UK that comes into effect even if the image would be PD due to 70-year-pma. Use the finished product in Harry Furniss at Home (Google or Internet Archive), which is undeniably {{PD-1923}} (for US) and commons:Template:PD-UK-known (for UK). Jappalang (talk) 01:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, Thanks for finding that. I will upload the original 3 caricature image from the Harry Furniss at Home book and a crop of just whitaker to replace the existing image.--DavidCane (talk) 11:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Jetty picture: Similar problem - when was it first published? Additionally, you are claiming that the author has been dead for 70+ years, but we can't assume this since we don't know who he/she was. A photographer aged 25 in 1896 would only have been 69 in 1940.
I'm pretty sure that I uploaded the image with the same copyright tag as the gate stock image below, e.g. {{tl:PD-UK}}, but as it has been moved to commons, I cannot check this. Mike Horne's book gives no source information, so apart from the approximate date it is impossible to identify any other information on its origin or if it was published at the time. I'm quite happy to remove it if that is thought to be the solution.--DavidCane (talk) 22:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Brian is correct here. You need to know who is the author and be verifiably certain he is dead beyond 70 years to use any 70-year-pma tag. Jappalang (talk) 01:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gates Stock: I am not sure that PD in the USA is covered by the existing licence information.
Mike Horne's book from which this was scanned has no source information for the image. The uploaded version does not appear in the London Transport Museum photographic archive, though this untouched version appears to be the original from which it was created. It is ascribed to an unknown photographer and dated 1906. The retouching of the rivets and the painting out of the background is indicative that it was prepared for publication, probably for the Bakerloo line's opening in 1906. If it was published in 1906, it would be in the public domain now --DavidCane (talk) 22:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image used in this article is not a retouched version of the London Transport Museum photographic archive link provided—observe the differences in positioning of the car's windows in the background, which implies the images were taken at different distances. It would be needed to find out from whom or where did Mike Horne get his photos from, and whether they fall into the public domain or was he given permission/license to publish them. Jappalang (talk) 01:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Windows are slightly different as if the photographer took two shots from slightly different positions. I will remove from article. --DavidCane (talk) 11:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did make a request that Awadewit have a look at these, but she has declined as she is not reviewing images at the moment. Hopefully, my answers above can help someone else make a decision on this matter.--DavidCane (talk) 23:31, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I missed his comments which, together with your responses, remove my concerns about images. I have moved to full support - sorry it's taken so long but I've been busy, been away blah blah blah... Brianboulton (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments on your Images (just to annoy you!!) I was ready through the article and it's all very good, but going through the images it can get a bit confusing as to what the new stations that were rejected/accepted were—It involves a lot of scrolling back and forth between previous sections and the current section. Would it be possible (if you don't have a problem with it) for the images to contain some easy to recognise distinction? maybe colour the station's red for rejected and green for accepted from the previous image in the article. So the second image would have Marylebone in green (or whatever) and the third image would have Hampstead Road and Euston and St George's Circus through Old Kent Road as red (or whatever). Or maybe you could have the current route slightly faded or some other way of distinction. Just my AUD$0.02 and if you think I'm a nutter then so be it! Sanguis Sanies (talk) 16:26, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see the images as supplementary to the text, which carries the detail of how the routes developed, and would prefer to keep them as simple as possible. Adding different colours or tones to the images would require an explanatory key that would, of necessity require the image dimensions boxes to be enlarged, potentially crowding the space on the page. --DavidCane (talk) 02:56, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it's a good read that meets the criteria. User:Ruhrfisch, who did much of the photography and all of the map-making for the article, has kindly agreed to co-nominate. Lock Haven is a small university town that grew up along the West Branch Canal of the Pennsylvania Canal system in the early 19th century. Until William Penn's original woods were mostly felled, the town thrived on timber. In the 1930s, the town became home to Piper Aircraft and its famous Cub. In the 1970s, flooding from the remnants of Hurricane Agnes put a big damper on the airplane factory and much else in town. Beneath part of the city lie artifacts from other cultures dating back more than 8,000 years.
Support I've had my eye on this article for some time and am very pleased with the progress. All of my issues were addressed and the article has only improved during the PR process. Very nicely done. Dincher (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support: A carefully prepared article that was very thoroughly peer reviewed by several editors; I was one of them, and every one of my points was addressed fully. The article is pleasant to read, informative, and beautifully presented – the images are a treat. Brianboulton (talk) 21:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No dabs or dead external links, and alt text looks good (see Talk:Lock Haven, Pennsylvania#Lock Haven review). Some alts are fairly long, but they all look good and appropriate (map alts describe the essence instead of the map, for example).
Dates are Month Day, Year throughout—good.
For images used on multiple pages with non-free rationales, try {{Non-free image data}} and {{Non-free image rationale}} to shorten the File pages. I've changed one of the images to use these; you do it for any others.
Comment There are some prose issues. For instance (but not limited to):
** "The earliest settlers in Pennsylvania arrived from Asia between 12000 BCE and 8000 BCE, the Paleo-Indian Period, when the glaciers of the Pleistocene Ice Age were receding." - Paleo-Indian Period shouldn't be surrounded by commas.
To make this more direct, I moved "Paleo-Indian Period" to the next sentence and wikilinked it to say: "Fluted point spearheads from this era, known as the Paleo-Indian Period, have been found in most parts of the state. Finetooth (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer either of my two constructions, both of which seem clear to me. The time span, the era, and the period all refer to the same thing. If we remove "era" from the fluted-point sentence, this connection will be lost, and it might appear that Paleo-Indian Period and the 4,000-year span were not the same. Finetooth (talk) 19:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Would it make sense to add a sentence at the end of this paragraph that said something like "The Susquehannocks were the earliest recorded inhabitants of the Susquehanna River valley and Lock Haven area; disease and warfare wiped them out as a tribe by 1675." Ruhrfisch><>°°16:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Parrot of Doom, I don't think anyone can say for sure when the absolute first contact occurred. Miller and Pencak in Pennsylvania: a History of the Commonwealthhere (p. 34) say, "When native Pennsylvanians first laid eyes on Europeans is unclear." The British explorer John Smith met a party of Susquehannocks from Pennsylvania in 1608, but that was not the first contact, which might have occurred between any two people (one Indian and one European) who encountered one another in this wild frontier place. The first encounter could easily have been informal, accidental, and unrecorded. Finetooth (talk) 00:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Parrot of Doom, there were at least four tribes in what is now Pennsylvania at the rough time of first contact: the Lenape along the Delaware River in the east (maybe 1/6 of the state), the Susquehannocks in the Susquehanna River valley (maybe 1/2 the state), the Eries along Lake Erie in the northwest, and tribe(s) we do not even know the names of along the Allegheny River/Monongahela River/Ohio River basins in the west (about 1/3 of the state). Plus the Iroquois would cross the state going from New York in the north to fight in the Carolinas to the south, the Susquehannocks were in wars with tribes to the south and north, etc. In short, not only do we not know when the first encounter was or who it was with, we also don't even know the names of all the tribes in the state then (even with the Susquehannocks we do not know what they called themselves, only what others called them). I hope this helps clarify the difficulty in answering your request. Ruhrfisch><>°°03:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
** "In the early 18th century, the Six Nations of the Iroquois, headquartered in New York, ruled the Indian tribes of Pennsylvania, including those who lived near what would become Lock Haven." - what are Indians?
I don't particularly have a problem with Indian over Native American, whatever is most common in the US is fine with me, but it could be confusing for people who haven't heard of these people referred to as Indians, before now. To most people, I would imagine that Indians reside in India. Parrotof Doom22:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good for me. Is Indian how North Americans describe these people? I'm from the UK, over here we'd call them Native Americans, or (slang) Red Indians. Parrotof Doom18:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Native Americans is the politically correct term. Indians is the more common term. My wife fits into this group and she says that she's an Indian. Dincher (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
** "Four Indian paths, the Great Island Path, the Great Shamokin Path, the Bald Eagle Creek Path, and the Sinnemahoning Path, crossed the island, and a fifth, Logan's Path, met Bald Eagle Creek Path a few miles upstream near the mouth of Fishing Creek." - what is an Indian path?
** "During the French and Indian War (1754–63), colonial militiamen on the Kittanning Expedition destroyed Indian property on the Great Island and along the West Branch. By 1763, the Indians had abandoned their island villages and other villages in the area" - where did they go? What happened to them? They've been there for thousands of years, more detail is required.
It is not simple to identify one tribe. The earliest recorded inhabitants of the West Branch Susquehanna River valley were the Susquehannocks, but they were wiped out by disease and warfare with the Iroquois and the few members left moved west or were assimiliated into other tribes by 1675. After that the Iroquois, who were the nominal rulers of the land but mostly lived in New York to the north, invited tribes displaced by European settlers to move into the region. These included the Lenape (Delaware), Shawnee, and others. They moved west into the Ohio River valley. Ruhrfisch><>°°20:13, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, if there isn't room in the prose to describe this adequately, consider writing it as a footnote. I'll leave that to you, if you want to or not. See Dick Turpin for examples of how to insert footnotes into an article. Parrotof Doom18:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Cleary Campbell, the first white settler in the area, built a log cabin in 1769 near the present site of Lock Haven University of Pennsylvania, and by 1773 William Reed had built a cabin surrounded by a stockade and called it Reed's Fort" - reads as though 1769 is a place, not a date, especially as the latter part of the sentence puts the date first. We know Campbell is the first settler, but who or what is William Reed?
"In response to settler incursions, and encouraged by the British after the start of the American Revolution (1775–83), Indians attacked colonists and their settlements along the West Branch. " - was the start of the American Revolution really eight years long?
"Hundreds of people fled along the river to Fort Augusta, about 50 miles (80 km) from Fort Reed, and some did not return for five years." - consider a semicolon instead of 'and'
"The second Treaty of Fort Stanwix, between the Iroquois and the United States" - what branch of the United States? Presumably the government?
Yes. I believe it's customary to simply name the countries involved in treaties. That the governments of those countries are doing the negotiating is understood. Finetooth (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In this period, it was customary to use "United States" as a group — i.e. "the states that are united" — so "United States" was always the government. Nyttend (talk) 18:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The "Iroquois" in the second-treaty sentence echoes the more elaborate "Six Nations of the Iroquois" of the sentence that opens the 18th century subsection of the article. The link to Iroquois in that first sentence leads to a more complete explanation of which tribes (nations) joined as one and why, but these details have little bearing on events in Lock Haven. The tribal confederacy (the Six Nations of the Iroquois) acted as a government in these treaty negotiations. Parrot of Doom, would it help to add "tribal confederacy" to the first sentence? Finetooth (talk) 22:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This language is fairly standard, for example Paul A. W. Wallace's book Indians in Pennsylvania, page 165, says "After the Revolutionary War, the United States made peace of a kind with the Indians in a series of treaties: in 1784 at Fort Stanwix with the Iroquois;..." Ruhrfisch><>°°03:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"to the state in 1784" - consider moving the year to a point earlier in the sentence.
It really depends on whether the structure's design is for utilarian purposes or has been artistically intended (visually). Seeing the carillons displayed in their article, it seems the Lock Haven's Carillon is a fairly standard non-descript design, and hence not really intended as an art piece but a structure to house the bells (which are also not uniquely designed). Jappalang (talk) 01:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I cropped it and adjusted the levels with Paint.NET. The sky is white from fog as well as the sun burning through the fog. Is this better? Ruhrfisch><>°°04:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have concerns about File:Pine Creek Log Raft.jpg. While it's an interesting image for sure, I'm not sure it does much to significantly increase the reader's understanding of the topic at hand (a raft).
Thanks for reviewing the images, Julian. It's not easy to sort out all of these complications, and the boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable often seem unclear to me. In defense of the fair-use claim, I'd say that while log rafts of this sort might be familiar to a North American audience, they might not be to a global audience. The image therefore adds information necessary to the understanding of the text and can't be replaced by words alone. Do you think that argument is sufficient to save the image? Finetooth (talk) 20:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not even sure that such a log raft would be that familiar to most younger people anymore - they just don't grow trees this big or make rafts like this anymore. Ruhrfisch><>°°01:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am with Julian here. For one, rafts are pretty common around the world; I see Asians with bamboo (and thick stick) rafts, so log rafts are not so hard to be conceived even by Asians. Although it is said that this image's raft is unique in that it uses "big" logs, there is nothing in the photo to help visualize that sense of scale. Without knowledge of the logs' size, it seems a fairly ordinary crude made log raft. This image would have more sense of fair use in Pennsylvania's logging-specific articles than about the place Lock Haven. Jappalang (talk) 01:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have been BOLD and removed the image, replacing it with the one image the City of Lock Haven uses on its official history web page, also of a log raft, but this time the raft is on the West Branch Susquehanna River going under the old bridge in Lock Haven itself. The image does not have any source or date information - the raft means it has to be 19th or very early 20th century. Ruhrfisch><>°°03:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it now meets the criteria. Article on an Australian veteran of both World Wars, who was awarded the Victoria Cross in the First and became a prisoner of war to the Japanese in the Second. The article has been passed as both a Good article, and A-Class by WikiProject Military history. Ian Rose was kind enough to preform a few prose tweaks to the article, and EyeSerene a thorough copyedit of which I am immensly grateful. Any and all comments welcome! Thanks, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 07:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice if the "Allegiance" in the infobox used {{flag}} instead of {{flagicon}}, and if {{flag}} had customizable text. See, right now those who can't see the flag will read "Australia Commonwealth of Australia", when it should be just "Commonwealth of Australia" (the text only, after an unlinked flag without an alt). {{flag}} would do the trick if the text could be changed to "Commonwealth of Australia".
Pointing out Peeler's "large ears" doesn't seem right for a man who won the Victoria Cross (even if he's no longer with us). They don't look that big to me (but it may just be the image size).
Well, he is identified in the actual image captions and it is easier to describe what he is wearing or such in the others so I don't see much of a problem with it. Also, they way I read that quideline, it seems to be against assuming context. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dates throughout are consistent Day Month Year. Does the unreferenced external link at the bottom need that access date?
It's kind of a habit I picked up on the advice of another editor. I suppose it doesn't really need it, but if the link goes dead it may be helpful in retrevial. *Shrugs* Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I had to read Army Gas School to get the significance of "On 22 June 1918, Peeler was posted to the Corps Gas School for eight days." I thought it involved cars or petrol! Silly me. :(
Comment: "dispatching several other German soldiers and emerging unscathed". Do you have to use the word "dispatch" when referring to killing people. MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for tweaking that, Eye, and pointing it out MisterBee. :) I was a little concerned about the word, as it is somewhat crude and insensitive in such a context. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support: A most engaging article which I enjoyed very much. I have a few nitpicks:-
Why the quotes around "in the face of the enemy"? It's not a quoted phrase as far as I know; the official citation refers to "most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice, or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy." (see here. I would simply remove the quotes, no need to expand the text.
This is a rather standard snippet in several Victoria Cross related subjects, and is a habit I have acquired. I think the distinction comes from one of the warrants relating to the VC, and is more to distinguish between it and the George Cross, which is awarded for great gallantry not in the face of the enemy. I will leave them at the moment, but have no strong feelings either way and am willing to remove the quotation marks. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"November" in second lead paragraph should have a year: "November 1816"
I don't think this is really necessary, as just before this the year of 1916 is present, and just after June 1917 is mentioned, so it would just be repeating the year of 1916 it occured which I think is a little obvious. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(Victoria Cross section): Punctuation quibble; mdashes are a rather violent way of inserting an interjection into a sentence. I don't think they are really justified in "a group of 24 men—including Peeler—from the 3rd Pioneer Battalion", and advise their replacement with humble commas.
On 10 July 1907, he wed Kathleen Emma Hewitt;[1] the couple would produce five children.[2] - erm, produce?
I originally had "the couple would have five children" but it got tweaked to "produce". Changed back now, though. :) Thanks very much for the review. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:10, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: All images verifiably in public domain. Taken before 1946, their copyrights would not be renewed by the URAA. Furthermore, possible publishing of these photos during 1923–89 are in Australian books that never registered copyrights in the US; hence, it is very unlikely these photos of Peeler are ever copyrighted in the US. Jappalang (talk) 06:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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