User talk:Huldra

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1948-villages

see: User:Huldra/Sandbox

Also:

• User:Huldra/Sources

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Palestine/Mausoleum of Abu Huraira

Unwelcome edit!

I have blocked the offensive IP address! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 13:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi page protection

I have semi-protected your user talk page for another week to stop these mindless attacks - if you want this to be for longer - let me know! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 13:36, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Protection

Have sorted it - had hit the wrong protection button - should be ok now! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 13:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot; may I ask you ( or any watching admin) to please "wash" (rev-del) my talk-page? Thanks, Huldra (talk) 13:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean by rev-del? Will help if I can ! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 13:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

If I go into the history go my user-page, say here (look towards the bottom of the page), quite a lot of edits are visible which hopefully could go down a memory-hole? I´m not sure how it is done, but it has been done quite a few times before on this user-page, (yeah; J. and I are old "friends"), Huldra (talk) 14:02, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I have also removed the offensive edit summaries on your talk page! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 14:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Archive

I have cleared all the above to a new archive page User talk:Huldra/Archive 2 - hope this helps! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 14:03, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but is it not possible to remove this from the history? Huldra (talk) 14:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that is exactly what I mean...Huldra (talk) 14:12, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Am not used to doing this but it seems to have worked! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 14:15, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

You're at about 76 sections here right now. You might think about archiving again. John Carter (talk) 23:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter; nah, I´ll wait a bit longer; I try to have as few archives as possible.....look at Zero0000...he has 206 sections...... ;P Huldra (talk) 23:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps use the auto-archive bot? Code text and instructions are found on the previous archive bot's how to page. If you would like me to put it up for you I am happy to help, if the "how to" page seems confusing. If you choose the auto-archive, you would also need to add the auto-archive index but that can be copied from almost any page that uses auto-archiving. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 23:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Drcrazy102 Thank you for your kind offer, but editing in the area I do, I get a lot of stuff here that I´m simply not interested in archiving.....typically edits from editors who have been blocked as socks, or topic-banned, and I´m not too quick with removing them. One prerequisite to editing in this topic-area is to be able to forget stuff, quickly! Perhaps if I was quicker removing those non-archivable edits....I´ll think about it..Thanks again, Huldra (talk) 23:58, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Book of Leibner

As in Farradiyya — I think you have it but if not I can send it. Lots of stuff in there. Zero^talk 05:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I don´t have it, but I would very much appreciate it, Huldra (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Is this a revert?

Have there been any recent 1RR violations at 1948 Palestinian exodus. What about this edit? It will not count as a revert if it's adding brand new material. But it might be restoring some material that was previously removed. I have not been able to figure that out, but perhaps you can. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Hadatha

Hello! Your submission of Hadatha at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 22:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Yoninah, thanks for taking care of the matter. Huldra, thank you for your many contributions to DYK and the rest of the project. Happy holidays everyone--my mother in law went home and there's a few beers left, so this turn out nicely after all. But first it's nap time! Drmies (talk) 19:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks a lot to both of you! I hadn´t really though of making Hadatha a DYK, I was just trying to clean up the various Haditha (disambiguation)s. As you can see on Talk:Hadatha: there have been some mix-ups. Very typical: on almost all of these places with rather similar names: there have been mix-ups. (See Talk:Tira, Israel, or Talk:Tayibe). Now: back to my (short?) break; I´ll be back in a few days, hopefully. In the meantime: Enjoy your beer! And thanks for your good work! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Global account

Hi Huldra! As a Steward I'm involved in the upcoming unification of all accounts organized by the Wikimedia Foundation (see m:Single User Login finalisation announcement). By looking at your account, I realized that you don't have a global account yet. In order to secure your name, I recommend you to create such account on your own by submitting your password on Special:MergeAccount and unifying your local accounts. If you have any problems with doing that or further questions, please don't hesitate to ping me with {{ping|DerHexer}}. Cheers, —DerHexer (Talk) 00:01, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Hadatha

Harrias ^talk 12:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

LOL, that's efficient service for you ;-)♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year Huldra!

Happy New Year!

Huldra,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 17:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year 2015}} to user talk pages.

On Zochrot and the use of "depopulated"

I've used ethnic cleansed where it was actually ethnic cleansed (i.e: in Ramle when the Jewish fighters were instructed to kill everyone regardless of age, stormed into a mosque and massacred everyone). How is this depopulated?

Furthermore, how is Zochrot not used as a source? It is a reliable primary source. In fact, it is more reliable than most historians reporting on something they have no witnessed. Where is Zochrot opposed as a reliable source? I've seen other pro-Zionist and clearly biased sources being used, yet Zochrot has been tagged as unreliable I can see some instances where Palestine Remembered is inaccurate, although in most instances it is.

Nayefc (talk) 08:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Sure, a lot of clearly biased sources are used on Wikipedia, in that case you are allowed to write that "According to"...etc. Palestine Remembered is a private web-site, a blog if you like, and that is not WP:RS. I have been fighting tooth and nail to keep it in the "External links"-section, pr WP:EL, I most of all appreciate their pictures: very valuable. Everything else from Pal.Rem which you could put into Wikipedia can much better be sourced to the original source. So, you use Barron, 1923, for the 1922 data, and Mills, 1932, for the 1931 data, and Hütteroth and Abdulfattah for the 1596 data. Yes: it is more work, but it is more reliable in the end. If you want to totally waste your time on edit-warring putting "ethnically cleansed" into leads; that is you choice (& then you will be blocked: I have seen it happen countless times.), cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Huldra, do you have any idea of what Nayefc is referring to about Ramle? I presume he's talking about the Dahmash mosque in Lydda. No? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 04:25, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

User:Pashute: I don't know, sorry. Honestly; there are a lot of guys/gals around here who know a lot more about the 1948 war than I do. I have mostly concentrated on the pre−1948 stuff, Huldra (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Grid references

Suppose the grid reference for villages was added to the info box. It would make questions of identification cleaner. What do you think? Zero^talk 03:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it would be good if the grid reference were added to all the info-boxes, especially on smaller places. All the scholars in the area seems to have some mix-ups. I have no idea as to how we change the info-boxes, though, do you? Huldra (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I can add the fields, but which info boxes are we talking about? Certainly {{Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine}} but maybe some others should have the option too? Incidentally there is a cheap Mac application that can convert lat+long into Pal grid; I'll check it out then send you email about it. Zero^talk 00:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, I may have correctly added a parameter "palgrid" to go after the lat-long coordinates in {{Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine}}. Please see Bayt Dajan for an example. I think we can usually use 6 digits like that, but we can also use 8 digits if more accuracy is needed. Does it look ok? Zero^talk 10:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does, but we really need to have something to divide the two numbers, it could be 134.156 or 134/156. And we need something which indicate which number is first; E-W, or N-S: I always mix them up, so I expect other people do, as well! Perhaps: 134.156 (E-W.N-S). or: Palestine grid (E-W, N-S) 134.156.

(Presently it is like a lot of the science-articles on Wikipedia: completely understandable if, and only if, you know all the stuff beforehand....)

About which places should have it: lets start with the info boxes on places which we (and lots of scholars) have mixed up; places in Haditha (disambiguation), Taybeh (disambiguation), Rumman, Tira? I see {{Infobox Palestinian Authority muni}} {{Infobox settlement}} {{Infobox Israel municipality}} {{Infobox Israel village}}, for a start? Huldra (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

It is just a general text field so you can write anything there. I rather like "134/156". I already put in the template instructions that EW goes before NS, but I don't like writing that in the infobox itself. It suggests there is more than one possibility, which there isn't. The field will never mean anything except to those few who understand maps and how map coordinates are formed, so there is no point in trying to explain it to other people. If we had somewhere to wikilink the heading "Palestine grid" to, that would be good. Zero^talk 01:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I see Khalidi use exactly the same, he has written 134156 for Bayt Dajan. A space, like 134 156 is also a possibility. I agree that it will not mean anything to most people reading it, but we should not make it difficult for people to understand. Btw, I knew nothing about grid-numbers when I started at Wikipedia....now I find they are extremely useful, if not a complete necessity to understand, say the articles of Barag and Frankel. Ok, I´ll start adding the grid-numbers for the 48-places (easy to do, as Khalidi gives them) Huldra (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I made Palestine grid, please suggest improvements. When it is ok, we can link "Palestine grid" in the infobox to it. Zero^talk 13:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Excellent! Actually, I think it looks pretty good now. Huldra (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

The WB and Israeli location infoboxes use Infobox Settlement, so I can't add the PalGrid to there easily. But I put in a request for new fields in Infobox Settlement — hopefully it will be done soon. Zero^talk 07:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I hope so, it seems as if most of the "serious" info about these places is given with grid-numbers. Say, Hütteroth &Abdulfattah, Pringle, Finkelstein. Btw this. (Oh, and this.) Huldra (talk) 23:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I have also asked here: Template talk:Infobox settlement, but no reply so far. Huldra (talk) 18:02, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Alas, so they have agreed, and added it to Infobox settlement.....it is just that this does not affect the villages and towns on the West Bank, as they use the "Infobox Palestinian Authority muni" and "Infobox Palestinian Authority municipality"...and I have no idea as to where to ask to have it added there? Huldra (talk) 15:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Probably I can do that. Zero^talk 23:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Please do! Huldra (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I see Frietjes did it, already :), Huldra (talk) 20:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

There are some articles which I would like to insert grid-no (or have inserted grid-no., and they do not show): Atlit, Ein Hod, Caesarea, Abu Kabir, Ramla, Taybeh, Ilut. Huldra (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I asked Frietjes to help. For locations using Infobox Israel village and similar, it will be necessary to write "grid_name=Palestine grid" and "grid_position=aaa/bbb" since it is reasonable to allow newer locations to have the Israel grid instead of the Palestine grid. Incidentally, some places like Atlit are not where they used to be. Perhaps just put it in like "grid_position=formerly 144/234, now 144/232"? Zero^talk 01:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

Whilst Your improvements to articles on Arab villages are welcomed, you must know that changing the description of villages in Israel from "Arab" to Palestinian Arab is controversial at best. I appreciate you feel strongly about the matter, but we all have to maintain NPOV when editing. Thanks, Number 57 11:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Number 57: I totally disagree here. We normally go by what people define themselves as. We don't have the article Blacks in America (or rather we do, but it is just a redir), we have African American, as that is what African Americans wants to be known as. Why should it be different for Israel? Most Arab citizens of Israel want to be known as "Palestinian", why should we deny them their right to do that? (Read the Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Terminology) It is simply disrespectful to not use the word "Palestinian" on Palestinian Arab places in Israel, Or should the opinion of Arab citizens of Israel count for nothing? Huldra (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

In a neutral encyclopedia, personal opinions count for nothing – what matters is neutrality and common usage in reliable sources specific to the language the encyclopedia is written in. This is nothing to do with being disrespectful (the "disrespect" argument is commonly used by editors seeking to introduce their non-neutral POV, so I'd avoid using it if I were you). As an aside, for some reason your pings do not work (I only checked back here out of interest to see if you had replied) – try using {{ping}}. Cheers, Number 57 22:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57:.Thanks for your info about my ping, hope this works better. Anyway: this is also about Wikipedia history: many of the places we are talking about were started as copies from Hebrew Wp, if I recall correctly. If they had been started as copies from Arab wp, I would guess they would all be called just "Palestinian" today. I´m not going to avoid using the word "disrespectful"; (I have not seen it used the way you mention, though I don´t doubt your word), it *is* disrespectful, IMO. In the end, though, it is about what WP:RS say, and that´s why I thought linking to Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Terminology could be illuminating. I know that in my own country (in Scandinavia) the term "Israeli Palestinians" are now used by mainstream media. And when even The New York Times (which can hardly be accused of anti-Israeli bias) use both 'Palestinian Israelis' and 'Israeli Arabs' ....then I do not think it is fair to use the term POV for wanting to use the word "Palestinian Arab". I wonder if we should take this to mediation; to get some new, "fresh" eyes to look at it? (Not that I have had any experience with the process). But frankly, I suspect neither you nor me will change position on this issue, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the question is, if you are aware that both Israeli Arab and Palestinian Arab are in use, why you would choose to change "Arab" to one of the two which potentially cause issues. Using the neutral "Arab" avoids this problem. Why is this not good enough? Number 57 22:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57: Hmm, for me the question is, Why are people allergic to the word "Palestinian"? If someone wants to be called/identifies with "Palestinian", why not call them that? I have a friend who wants to be addressed as "they", well, I did struggle with that (all my English-teachers who over the years had tried to teach me one person is either "he" or "she". But now I call "them" "they". (If you see what I mean: earlier "they" would have been a "she" to me!) We respect a Chelsey Manning when she wants to be known as "she", but not Palestinian in Israel who wants to be know as a Palestinian. I think the question is, why is "Arab" "good enough" for them? Huldra (talk) 23:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Two comments - firstly, if someone wants to identify as a Palestinian, they can and it should be noted in their individual article (but it doesn't take away from the fact that they are also still Israeli by virtue of their citizenship). However, Wikipedia is not the place to put labels on a whole group of people who we have no idea whether they accept that label or not. Do you know if every single person in those towns and villages self-identifies as Palestinian? If not, then you cannot label whole towns or villages. Secondly, and more importantly, an encylopedia is meant to be clear and neutral. Labelling a place in Israel as being Palestinian does not offer that clarity or neutrality. The appropriate place to discuss the issue of identification is Arab citizens of Israel or individual people's articles. Number 57 23:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57: Firstly, how do we know that the people of Harlem wants to be identified as African American and not as Black Americans? We don´t. But we know that if the majority of African American wants to be identified as that (and not as "Black American") then we respect that, and name the places as populate by African American. Why should we treat the Palestinian places in Israel any different? Your second point is interesting. You say that "an encylopedia is meant to be clear and neutral"; I agree, but the situation on the ground is anything but clear; what you are trying to do, IMHO, is to impose a "clarity" on Wikipedia where there is none in the real world. Should not an encyclopaedia reflect the reality? Again, I suggest mediation; to get some new, "fresh" eyes to look at it? Huldra (talk) 21:37, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

If you want mediation, I suggest we detail our prospective cases at Talk:Uzeir and request a WP:Third opinion. Number 57 15:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57:, ok I have summed up my view on Talk:Uzeir, I´ll wait until you have done the same, and then ask for WP:Third opinion. -Huldra (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Your last revert on Israeli-occupied territories

• Can you explain me how "The term occupied is challenged by some pro-Israeli official bodies and organizations, including the Israeli government" is better than "The Israeli government maintains the territories were captured in a defensive war thus according to international law their status is"
• Since Israeli claims are mentioned in regards to Gaza after 2005, doesn't it make sense to put first Israel claim after 1967. It either both (in that order) or neither. And why it is alone two paragraphs later?

Neither of these change I have made are about my opinion, it is simple logic. If you can't answer, please revert and save me the fire from up above :) Ashtul (talk) 23:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Umm al-Kheir

I have added a page for Umm al-Kheir. It can be spelled with an A or E (or some other combinations) so right now it doesn't show on Hebron Governorate category bar. Cheers. Ashtul (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I have moved it to Umm al-Khair, Hebron: the template name. Huldra (talk) 17:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Which one of my edits rubbed you the wrong way? None of them touched on Israel-Palestine issues. They were geographical or about towns inside pre-1967 Israel? Ashtul (talk) 17:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Most of them. Say, List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus also lies within pre-1967 Israel, still every one of the articles on that list are forbidden to edit by anyone with a topic ban. Huldra (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Guerin's Holy Land

It is at Gallica: [1]. Note there are two parts even though the first part doesn't seem to identify itself as such. If you have trouble downloading, I can send it to you but it's a bit big (100M each volume). Zero^talk 22:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Found it, Huldra (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

communal settlement (Israel)

This is a type of town/village in Israel. If you don't like it, change the article name. It is more relevant information than neigbouring communities etc.

As for picture from Carmel, your request for RfD is hypocritical as it was added with no discussion. Ashtul (talk) 21:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

An Israeli West Bank settlement is an Israeli West Bank settlement: illegal in the eyes of the international community. That you are trying to "normalise" them, by getting them to appear as settlements in Israel pre-1967 (i.e. legal, in the eyes of the international community) is A: highly contentious, B: will not hold. Huldra (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

DISCLAIMER Please note: the text contained in "Arabs and Jews in exemplary coexistence at Barkan – Samaria" has not been corrected, edited or verified by Dem) What does that even mean? I added a new source from Haaretz as well. Ashtul (talk) 21:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I copied & pasted from the "Disclaimer" at the bottom of the page you linked to, unfortunately I could not link the whole text, which is as follows: "DISCLAIMER Please note: the text contained in "Arabs and Jews in exemplary coexistence at Barkan – Samaria" has not been corrected, edited or verified by Demotix and is the raw text submitted by the photojournalist. All views and opinions expressed are that of the independent photojournalist and do not represent the views of Demotix Ltd. These details have been included in order to provide as much information as possible to the Media buyer." Huldra (talk) 21:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, I haven't seen it. But it does say it on the Haaretz article so please, self revert. Ashtul (talk) 23:19, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that it is a "premium" article from Haaretz: unless you subscribe (which I don´t) you cannot see the whole article. What I can see is this: "EU settlement ban casts shadow over Palestinian industry in the West Bank. Israeli business owners wonder how many Palestinians will lose their jobs if companies are forced to move over the Green Line into Israel proper. It’s early morning in the middle of the week and the Barkan Industrial Park in the West Bank opens the day as always. The thousands of workers in dozens of factories - half Israelis and half Palestinians - arrive for work. Some come from the other side of the Green Line or nearby settlements, some from nearby villages and towns such as Nablus or Salfit."

And you want me to re-add "At Barkan Industrial Park, thousands of Israelis and Palestinians coexist and work side by side in many of the factories. Palestinian workers can earn as much as 4 times the monthly average salary in the Palestinian Authority.".....sourced to what I can see of the above Haaretz-article? Sorry, no way. Huldra (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

And please explain me, a smart person to another smart person, how that image with 'Carmel in background' isn't POVPUSH. Ashtul (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Should I copy paste you the article? Can I read every book you quote? Seriously!!!

And while at it, putting a gazillion books in Bibliography in Afula article is clear POVPUSH again. The Palestinian connection is mentioned and there is no need for 20 books. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Ashtul (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Huh? I don´t understand what you mean, here. As for the Afula article, I believe the only references I haven´t yet used are the "Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel"-ones. Never heard anyone objecting to me adding those before?? And when a place has a 1000 year or more with non-Jewish history, and less than 100 years with newer Jewish history: don´t be surprised that there are a "gazillion books" about the non-Jewish history. Oh, and finally: please be careful calling other editors WP:POVPUSHers , Huldra (talk) 23:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

You might be right about Afula. What about reverting Barkan b/c you can't access an article on Haaretz or the image with Carmel 'at the background'?

Also, please let me know how you want to proceed about Community settlement (Israel). I have no problem with droping the (Israel) from that page if that what bothers you. Ashtul (talk) 00:51, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, you see, that is the problem: you totally misread my edits on Afula, and make the quite serious accusation of WP:POVPUSH against me......and *then* you ask me to trust your reading of the Haaretz article I cannot see. Seriously, do you think that is a reasonable request? (Thank you for admitting your mistake on Afula, at least).

As for the Community settlement (Israel)-article: frankly, the article is horrible; it looks as if 90% is completely unsourced. If you want to improve the situation, then I suggest that you start by adding sources, in English, preferably. Huldra (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

A good thing is that articles behind paywall at Haaretz and many other websites can still be read if you look at the cached version. If you search on the article or the link on Google, you can find an arrow that is like an upside down triangle when you get a result and you can press it and pick "Cached". --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

..ok, thanks for the tip! Huldra (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Umm Safa

At Rawabi. Can we link that to a Palestinian site? Fanks. Nishidani (talk) 17:34, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Sure, it is Umm Suffah on SWP map 14, just West of 'Atara. It is one of the few red-linked villages in the Ramallah and al-Bireh Governorate. SWP: "apparently connected with an ancient Maspha or Mizpeh, II, 291, 378. It is also in Guerin. Do you want to start it? Huldra (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Fanks indeedly chieftainess. Cripes, I'm already full up to pussy's bow with woik, and though I'd like to, I'm flat out like an effing starving lizard. 'Nother day, praps.

Was also called Kafr Ishwa'. Samaria survey 1 p. 401. Zero^talk 20:32, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Which Samaria survey 1?? Surely not Guerin, he is up at Nablus around Samaria 1, p. 401? Huldra (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

The Finkelstein one, Highlands Of Many Cultures, Vol 1. Zero^talk 20:45, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, right, thanks, He also gives Guerin, 1875: 109, Huldra (talk) 20:46, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Grid changes for Israeli locations

For localities with infobox "Israel municipality", "Israel village" or equivalent (includes "Kibbutz") I removed the "palgrid" field to allow more general possibilities. The fields to use now are "grid_name" and "grid_position".

For locations in Israel it is reasonable to use the present Israeli grid (ITM), and for places with a history it is reasonable to use the Palestine grid to match the large number of historical and archaeological sources that use it. I'm suggesting syntax like at Amka, which I input like

 | grid_name=Grid position
 | grid_position=166/265 [[Palestine grid|PAL]]<br>215400/764900 [[Israel Transverse Mercator|ITC]]

but of course the grid could be named like before if only one is used. For places like Caesarea which moved from their original locations, we could use PAL for the original position and ITM for the current position. Amudanan has ITC.

I'd edit the documentation next. Zero^talk 09:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC) @Brad Dyer:

But this may change, see Frejtjes' talk page. I'm struggling to find time to engage with this today.. Zero^talk 00:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, Frejtjes has applied a bit of template magic. For localities with infobox "Israel municipality", "Israel village" or equivalent (includes "Kibbutz"), you can use any or all of these fields:

| palgrid=XXX/YYY                 (Palestine grid)
| ITMgrid=XXXXXX/YYYYYY      (Current Israel grid)
| ICSgrid=XXXXXX/YYYYYY      (Obsolete Israel grid; hard to see any reason to ever use this)
| grid_position=ANYTHING       Free text

Don't use "grid_name" at all. Whichever fields are used will appear with the heading "Grid position". I'm thinking of changing the Palestine infoboxes too, as no edit would be needed to those articles. The difference will be that instead of "Palestine grid   XXX/YYY" it will show "Grid position   XXX/YYY (PAL)". Zero^talk 08:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

@Frietjes:, @Zero0000:: I have added palgrid-numbers to places like Taybeh and Abwein, but they are not visible. Any reason? Huldra (talk) 21:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

that article using the world-wide {{infobox settlement}} directly, and not one of the regional-specific wrappers like {{Infobox Israel municipality}} or {{Infobox Kibbutz}}. hence, you will need to use different syntax, like

| grid_position = ... [[Palestine grid|PAL]]

or

| grid_name = [[Palestine grid]]
| grid_position = ...

Frietjes (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

@Frietjes: ok, I see; thanks again! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 02:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

@Frietjes:Is it possible to get it on infobox building? There are articles which only identify Khan al-Tujjar (Mount Tabor) by its grid-number, but I cannot get it into the info box. Huldra (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

added. Frietjes (talk) 14:56, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Huldra (talk) 20:04, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

@Frietjes:...and Infobox ancient site? I´m trying to put grid-numbers into Arsuf, but they don´t show up. Huldra (talk) 21:35, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

should work now. Frietjes (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! that was super-quick! Huldra (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Catch up

Brookie popping by here, to check you're trouble free after last Xmas's problems - if not - shout! --Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} ^(Whisper...) 17:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@Brookie: Thanks, yes, it has been wonderfully quiet and trouble-free here, thanks again! I know people are in two minds about this; some like to keep their talk-pages unprotected, arguing that time used to vandalise it, is time *not* used to vandalise anything important. However, I´m not really her to fight vandals (thought I´m very, very grateful for those who do!), I´m here to write /build articles, and having to spend a lot of time "cleaning up" my talk-page keeps me away from that main goal. So thanks again! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:21, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Question

Do you know of any reason to believe this guy is more likely to be posting to my talk page than this guy? Thank for any info. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Hi Gouncbeatduke. Runtshit's edits are motivated by an intense hatred of a British socialist and anti-Zionist. I have no reason to believe he has targeted you.

Please read WP:Revert, block, ignore. These vandals thrive on attention, so let's not give them what they want. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:20, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gouncbeatduke: It is exactly like @Malik Shabazz: say; this guy target everyone in the Israel/Palestine area who he consider not "pro-Israeli" enough. While Runtshit is obsessed with one person only, and follows him around. Since that person is interested in the Israel/Palestine area, most editors in the area will sooner or later encounter one of Runtshit´s many, many socks. It is highly unlikely that Runtshit has targeted you: Runtshit has an allergy against a person who is Jewish, and at the same time declares himself as anti-Zionist.

WP:Revert, block, ignore and WP:DENY are vital here. Don´t make a fuzz; after a while you you will get used to them both, just like you get used to mosquitos in the summer..... Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Tiamut?

Hey there Huldra, Are you in touch with User:Tiamut at all? She kind of disappeared from the face of the planet after she had been so active and meticulous in her Wikipedia editing! --Fjmustak (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Fjmustak: Yes, I´m in contact with her. She is fine, just very, very occupied in RL. She just uploaded a couple of pictures to commons, after a recent picnic to Ma'alul. Don´t worry; she will be back...eventually, (And yeah; I miss her terribly, too!) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Could you please relay the message that a group of us is creating a Wikipedia user group in Palestine. There are very few Wikipedians I know in Palestine, and she would be great asset to the group. She can email me if she wishes. Same goes for any others you know in Palestine. Regards --Fjmustak (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

@Fjmustak: Ok, I will, Huldra (talk) 22:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Listing of the depopulated Palestinian villages

Hi. As you know very well (User:Huldra/Morris-list is helpful), there are different figures given about the depopulated Palestinian villages. I am wondering about al-Subeih (the full name is "Arab al-Subeih"), which was a Bedouin tribe, and I added it more than year ago to Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus after seeing it listed in the main article. It seems to be the only tribe listed and I think there should be some consistency. Benny Morris and Walid Khalid list 17 each but not all are the same while Salman Abu Sitta lists 99, including 78 in the Beersheba area. This is mentioned on 1948 Palestinian exodus#Abandoned, evacuated and destroyed Palestinian localities but not in List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus. What do you think?

It is not either mentioned there that several towns were overwhelmingly emptied of their Palestinian residents. No matter if they are listed are not (Benny Morris list them but not, according to that section, Walid Khalidi), it is worth mentioning. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, the Bedouin tribes are a bit of my guilty conscience; I know far too little about them. Yes, that template should probably be expanded, but it is not my top priority; there are simply too many articles on that list which are sub-standard already; I prioritise to bring the existing articles there up to a certain standard.

Note also the User:Huldra/Morris2-list: there should not be any red-listed names on that list, but there is.....lots of these new Israeli settlements changed names; and I have not figured out all, yet. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:22, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

That is a great list too. I think Arab al-Subeih should be treated as the rest of the tribes so I will take a look on the lists more.

Regarding another village, I saw recently on al-Jammama that Ruhama was established on the village's land. However, I saw that Beit Kama had some info that also relates to al-Jammama. This was added by a user three years ago but then vastly reduced by other users. I only have the book by Benny Morris and not the one by Walid Khalidi and the other one sourced. Can you take a look and see what Khalidi says? Thanks. I see that Morris writes "Beit Kama - southeast of Jammama - 1949" under number 167 at xx - MAPS.

There is some who remove sourced info about Palestinian villages. I saw this yesterday and just saw this. You, who know the villages very well, had added info about the history in both but as I said, some remove such mentions. --IRISZOOM (talk) 05:15, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Glad you find the Morris-lists useful; Zero and I spend quite some time trying to sort them out. Note that Morris obviously made some mistakes, e.g. on User:Huldra/Morris-list villages #268 and #274 are probably the same village.....

Khalidi does not mention Beit Kama at all, only Ruhama is on al-Jammama -land according to him. Morris mentions that it is near al-Jammama (very important to note that you cannot compare directly Khalidi and Morris; as Morris gave the geographic locality, while Khalidi went into *who* the land actually belonged to.)

And "certain" editors are removing which village the kibbutzes or settlement were built on *all* the time, that is why I normally keep them "watched", but I missed the Kfar Kisch-one; thanks for spotting it! (I have 3,800 articles on my watch-list now, so yeah, I miss some!)

If you need some more info from Khalidi: don´t hesitate to ask.Huldra (talk) 20:18, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

On another note; Jacob Berggren was one of the early travellers in Palestine (1820-22), and he is the earliest modern source for several places, such as Al-Shaykh Muwannis and Tubas. I am therefor very interested in having an article about him here, on en.wp. Some sources:

• http://runeberg.org/sbh/berggrja.html
• http://archive.org/search.php?query=jakob%20Berggren

Interested in helping out? Huldra (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I have seen you point out some errors.

Thanks for looking at it in the book. Can you clarify if only the Jewish localities that was formed on the site of depopulated Palestinian villages should mentioned in the infobox etc. and not those on village land? As far I have seen, both are mentioned.

I don't have the third source, which is called "Ancient Christian Villages of Judaea and the Negev" and written by Bellarmino Bagatti, and no one of those who removed the text made any mention if they have the sources either, but just that it is "POV" etc. The text added was "The kibbutz was founded on 18 April 1949 on the lands of the Christian Palestinian village of al-Jammama, whose inhabitants were forcibly displaced on 22 May 1948 after a Jewish military assault on their village, and were never allowed to return" and this edition with the refs can be seen here. It is clear that it was attacked then and depopulated but not if it is related to Beit Kama. So what I want to do is work on that. If no reliable source reports about a connection to the Palestinian village, then that part should be removed. If they do, that should be reinserted. Now what we have is some part that was greatly changed without any of those removing and changing parts telling if they had even looked at the sources, only that they found it "POV", "charged" etc.

I also have many articles in my watchlist (though I need a much bigger one) and I would hope I would have to spend less time on reverting people (mainly IPs) who fail to edit according to the policies of Wikipedia. Just look at this I found one month ago, which was removed 2.5 years ago (it is still not clear if one other edit in that section should be reverted and I will look more at it soon). I have thought to bring it up on a board to follow up on the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Archive 8#IP area still being swamped by socks. It is very boring to see several edits every day who remove facts, whitewash history etc. and many others are not discovered until a very long time (for example, I found about this torture article after I had read about a new Haaretz investigation and then saw the removals after looking at the Revision history) and this is seen as insignificant in comparision to for example a 1RR violation. It can't be that one 1RR violation is treated as much worse than violations of NPOV, for example. One action could be to semi-protect the area. But this is another topic and I will soon discuss it on a board.

If you create such an article, I will take a look at it and I have already found for example this by the National Archives of Sweden. By the way, I saw that there are articles about Jacob Berggren in the Swedish Wikipedia and Arabic one. --IRISZOOM (talk) 11:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

In the info-box for the 48-villages: we should definitely put *all* the Israeli settlements on Palestinian village land, not only those exactly on the village site. (Very few new Israeli settlements were *exactly* on the old Palestinian site.) I don´t have the Bagatti-book either, but from what I can see it is about ancient Christian settlements. And undoubtedly the area was Christian...back in Byzantine times. But is is completely wrong to write "The kibbutz was founded on 18 April 1949 on the lands of the Christian Palestinian village of al-Jammama"..firstly, al-Jammama had probably not been Christian for a 1000-1500 years, and Morris only say that Beit Kama was *near* (south-east) of al-Jammama. I have changed it, and removed the Khalidi-ref in the Beit Kama -article. (Khalidi never mentions Beit Kama)

I would love to see the whole ARBIA area semi-protected, I´ve had my talk-page semied since December, and it has been wonderfully quiet here. At least now I can concentrate more on writing articles, and not with death/rape-threaths on my user-page.

I´ll look around a bit more for Berggren, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:43, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Good that you worked on Beit Kama. I added that it was Palestinian and was depopulated as it was changed to only "Arab" and "conquered" while the fact that they were depopulated is the reason for the Palestinian refugee crisis, no matter what anyone thinks was the reason it started and if it was right to destroy nearly all of them and stop the refugees from coming back. So it is undisputed that they were depopulated, though both sides may prefer another term as you know. I also removed the older ref now as the only thing that what was left was from Benny Morris.

So should it be on al-Jammama's infobox that Morris writes Beit Kama was established southeast to it? Because I saw you edited it but did not add it to either it there or in a section.

It is horrible some write such things on people's talk page.

I will look forward to see the article about Jacob Berggren being created. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I do not think that Beit Kama should be in the info-box of Al-Jammama; we normally only have the places Khalidi mentions there. We can of course have it in the article -text, as we have RS (=Morris) that Beit Kama was founded S-E of it. (It could now, of course, have spread onto Al-Jammama land; (see the Kiryat Gat -Al-Faluja example); but we simply do not know that.) However, you should perhaps have let the Bagatti-ref stand, as none of us have checked it?

When I edit these articles, I feel sometimes I´m at a factory assembly-line; Guerin; check, SWP, check, 1922, check...etc. Often I take one or two of the same "operations" over a lot of articles; that is more effective. Which means that normally there is still a lot to do after I have finished editing an article for the day! It is virtually only when I go for a DYK that I try to do it all.

I see our "mutual friend" has visited you, too? If it gets too bad: just get it semied, cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. If that is how it is, we stick with what Khalidi says. Yes, it should be in the body and it makes no sense have it in Beit Kama but not in al-Jammama, which is the article about that Palestinian village. Okay, then I know why you did that as I was unsure if it should be added.

If nothing from Bagatti's book is left in the article, I don't see why we shoud keep the ref. The only thing there is from Morris. However, perhaps I should ask at WP:Palestine or some other venue if someone can check that source?

There was some person who wrote such things after I reverted some bad words inserted at Rula Jebreal. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

As it is *only* Khalidi who gives "current localities on the land", we follow him. Morris is simply is not specific enough to use on this. As for Bagatti, when I used preview: I did not find Beit Kama, but I *did* find Jammama. The Bagatti-ref. should probably go into the Biblio in the Jammama-article. Huldra (talk) 21:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Good, now I know exactly how it works.

I will bring it up in some venue. I can't preview the book, though search results show some small parts of it. One of the hits are from the same page that was referenced to by the editor (page 149). --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I should hasten to say that this is the ideal...in reality, lots and lots of the |curlocl= is not sourced at all. ...or sourced to Morris (I just ce´ed one such at Al-Sarafand.) IMO: those "curlocl" which is only sourced to Morris, should -eventually- go into the article text, and not be in the info-box. The unsourced ones have mostly been taken from the Pal.rem. site: no specific source given. That is not good enough. Huldra (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Another thing I think is missing is translations of the names on many articles, which I for some time have thought to add. There are some sources on the names in Arabic and also in Hebrew. The easiet one to get them from is Palestine Remembered.

I think Zochrot could be a good WP:EL. They got statistics, images, videos stories, descriptions from Khalidi etc. The part about the built-up area and land is split there, by the way.

Furthermore, most of the external links that are on articles here are now dead links. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, please, please do. I do not speak/read/write either Arabic or Hebrew ..(I´m definitely no linguist). Having especially the Arabic names of places is vital. E.g., Guerin, in his later books, always gives the Arabic names (and spelling). Though I know absolutely no Arabic, I have identified many of the places in User:Huldra/Guerin after comparing the spelling of villages he visited, with the names given in Arabic on their Wikipedia article.

As for Zochrot being WP:EL: absolutely. The problem with Zochrot (as with POICA and ARIJ-links on the West Bank places): they have been changing their url too often. Extremely frustrating (I have added lots and lots of those now dead links...) I know Al Ameer sons was also quite frustrated over this.(I think the ARIJ changed url 3 times, or something). Therefor ........I had simply planned to ignore most of those WP:EL for a year ..or three; until they "settle down". When I add WP:ELs, it is normally to Pal.rem (which have never changed its URLs in the 10+ years I have looked at it) or IAA, or commons; in short: the "steady ones". Huldra (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

PS: probably all the WP:EL links to Khalil Sakakini Cultural Center should go; they are presently dead, and were not very great to begin with. In a year...or three; I will start to remove them, Huldra (talk) 23:53, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I will do it but I am not sure when I will start. There are many villages so it takes some time.

Yes, link rot can be a big problem. That is why it is best to add the title but also the author in the these links. I agree with you about removing them. Same with those to http://www.jalili48.com/ that are not working (by Dr. Moslih Kanaaneh), which seems to be nearly all. --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the http://www.jalili48.com -links are mostly (all?) still there, that is a case of link rot again. I have found them quite informative (and great pictures!) ...so make sure that the links are actually gone (as opposed to moved url) before you remove the links. Look here: http://www.jalili48.com/pub/xENPhotogallery.aspx?ID=What_Remained_of_the_destroyed

All the early POICA-links are dead, but you can easily find the new address by googeling the title of the article, Huldra (talk) 19:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I mentioned the problems on that site while we were talking about the other site. I did a search for the description of the villages (that I found on Wayback Machine) on http://www.jalili48.com and did not find anything on Google. If they were informative, the archived version can be added instead. However, there are images left I see on your link, which is good. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I have also used archive.org for that place for a while, but presently they seem to be working again. Link-rot, and all that. If there is a specific site -link you are thinking of, then please tell me, and I´ll try to locate its new url, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:52, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I was confusing them. I meant http://www.alnakba.org, which as you say is run by Khalil Sakakini Cultural Center, so we are now speaking about the same. Those can't be found via Google, though can be found on Webarchive. See for example http://web.archive.org/web/20100819192917/http://www.alnakba.org/villages/haifa/sarafand.htm. Are the descriptions from Walid Khalidi? --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:47, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that wording is exactly the same as in Khalidi. Actually, that is more than is at the Pal.rem-site....perhaps it would be useful to keep the link (to archive.org) after all? Huldra (talk) 19:38, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Then I think we can keep it too. --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:12, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Btw, Wikipedia have now been granted general right to use all the Pal.rem-sites pictures over at commons; which is absolutely great news! Huldra (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Nice to hear.

By the way, I will borrow All That Remains very soon.--IRISZOOM (talk) 23:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I have now asked at WT:PALESTINE if anyone got acces to the book by Bagatti and can look in it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: : the one place which *really* should be included (in the Gaza district) is Al-Majdal, Askalan. Presently, it is only a redir to Ashkelon (as is Al majdal). Khalidi did not include it, as he did not include towns (Khalidi, 1992, p. XX), but since we do include towns (like Ramla and Lydda...we should probably include Haifa, too)...then we should include Al-Majdal, Askalan, too.

Oh, btw, could you please keep Ein Ayala and HaHotrim "watched"? Some joker removes info from them, Huldra (talk) 21:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Include where? I added them to my watchlist now. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: Thanks, and I was thinking on the template: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Palestinian_Arab_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

Huldra (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That is not consistent at all. Perhaps the template could be separated to add that several cities were also depopulated of Palestinians, as for example Benny Morris and Rochelle A. Davis mentions.

I will remove al-Subeih now as it was only one of many tribes depopulated. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: I´m in two minds about it....on one hand it is called "Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus" ....so what is Ramla and Lydda doing there? And we have List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus...where Majdal is also listed. The problem is that those not listed on the template tends to get forgotten, except for the really famous ones, like Ramla and Lydda. Khalidi specifically mentions 4 places: Ramla, Lydda, Haifa and Majdal. Of course there were others, like Safad and Tiberias. Huldra (talk) 22:45, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It needs to be consistent so either all cities/towns (or those four) or none should be listed. It is the same when it comes to the tribes. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: Agreed. It seems that they are all listed at the start of the article List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus...but they are not linked. Perhas they should be. For me it was just ironic that it was easier to find info about the depopulation of villages with a few hundred, or even a few dozen inhabitants, than it was to find information about large towns. This, btw, is interesting, as it contradicts say, the Golda Meir-story about Haifa. Huldra (talk) 23:07, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That part in the lead was added by me less than two months ago. I didn't list them as it is unclear if they should be, as this discussion shows, but they are clearly relevant to mention, not least for the reason you mention. Yes, an in interesting story but I will read the whole article later. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: Yes, we should list them separately somewhere...now they "drown" in the list of village article. Another group of villages which should be listed is the depopulated so called "Templer settlements". Again, Khalidi specifically writes that he does not include them, as "despite the presence of Arab workers and residents, they were not Palestinian villages but colonies set up by the German Templars at the end of the nineteenth century." However, that is a truth with modifications; eg., Bethlehem of Galilee had existed as an Arab village for centuries before the Germans arrived, and in both the 1922 & 1931 census there was a majority of Muslim residents. I haven´t expanded the other German Templar articles yet (I´m getting there!)..but it would not surprise me if several showed similar development. Huldra (talk) 23:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Where can they be listed? I do think they can be mentioned in any relevant article but if it is only listing towns and villages, the cities (though some call them towns) don't belong there. However, then it should be consistent as some cities/towns are listed while others are not. --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:31, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: Perhaps 2 new paragraphs in List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus? One for the towns/cities (everything which is not covered by Khalidi), and one for the Templar places? Huldra (talk) 21:23, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes. However, there should be some consistency on that template and the listing in that article. As you said, two to three cities are mentioned on those pages. --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely. What if we, in the article, had a paragraph first, named, say, "Cities and towns depopulated of its Arab population", then start that paragraph with *how* we define "depopulated"; (losing more than 50% of its Arab population? Any other percentage?) Then a wikilinked list of towns and cities fulfilling these criteria. Then change each of the titles in the Subdistricts, so that "Acre Subdistrict" becomes "Villages in the Acre Subdistrict" etc. And remove any town presently included there (Lydda, Ramle). Then remove all towns from the template, too...or put the same town/cities at the top? Huldra (talk) 18:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean a section in the article for cities/towns?

The article and template should resemble each other so if they are listed in the first one, they should be in the template too and if they are not, remove them.

It is up to the reliable sources to classify them as depopulated or not. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: yes, that is exactly what I meant. Get the towns/cities in a separate section up at the start of the article, and rename the headers to reflect that it is only the villages that is included. And then: similar in the template. Huldra (talk) 21:10, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

That seems to be a good solution. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Was that your request on Commons?

[2] Correct, I just used a random name. In fact, I have never even had issues with the person in question. I just thought of an American schoolkid's name. Thanks for making the appeal! Peter Damian (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

@Peter Damian: yes it was, not that it helped a lot. Do you want me to make another try? It has been over 6 months. (Link to the whole discussion here) (Btw, I hope to take over the "Huldra" name at commons too, soon, as part of the SUL-effort); Huldra (talk) 20:45, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Leave it for now. I did want to load some of incunabula collection there, but it's not urgent (give or take a few hundred years). Peter Damian (talk) 21:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

@Peter Damian: Ok, as you wish. You could off course also upload it here (...just to show them what they are missing ;P) Huldra (talk) 21:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

You can upload it here?

Thanks for the link to the discussion (which I hadn't seen before). I left a message on Fae's page, in case it makes any difference, hopefully not for the worse. Peter Damian (talk) 10:53, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

@Peter Damian: Sure, you can upload pictures (such as this one) to en.wp, actually, I think the the copy-right requirements are less strict on en.wp than on commons. (Though I am not an expert on that!) From my understanding: everything you can upload to commons, you can also upload to en.wp; but *not* the other way around. (Btw, I love old prints/manuscripts, and I was absolutely delighted to find one for the Beit Hanoun-page).

The discussion on commons about your ban back then was....well, like talking to a stone. Or several stones. A waste of time. People had their mind made up in advance, and nothing I would say would make a difference. I would suggest that you upload a bit to en.wp instead: see the "upload file"-button on the left. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 14:57, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Burqin

Sunday on the wiki looks better with your contribution - Thanks Victuallers (talk) 15:06, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

library service

Hi Huldra. Tomorrow I can vist the Tel Aviv University library again, where the Bagatti book was found. If you want any other quick looks like that leave me a message. trespassers william (talk) 20:58, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Danny lost: Thanks! Could you just confirm (or not) what IRISZOOM and I suspected: that the book is about the ancient, that is Byzantine era? I see we have the book ("Ancient Christian villages of Judaea and the Negev / Bellarmino Bagatti", 2002) also in my country, but it would be an out-of-city loan for me. Guess I should get hold of it at one time, and "plot in" all the places he mentions. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:05, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Already posted page images at rhe other talk Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine . You were right. I mean is there any other source you want to check? trespassers william (talk) 21:38, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Danny lost: Ok, then not really. At the moment I have more than enough of stuff to add to articles..... Btw, take a look at the maps down on the Charles William Meredith van de Velde -page. In 1858, we had El Kaweh and el Kabireh clearly marked. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:46, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

al-Araqa

Have we an article on this village? Nishidani (talk) 09:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I assume you mean Araqah, 15 kilometers west of Jenin? Huldra (talk) 11:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Once more I doff my hatless head to your omniscience.Nishidani (talk) 11:53, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks :)

Thank you for your civility while contesting my edit. It's rather refreshing for a Palestine-Israel dispute. --User:Monochrome Monitor|Monochrome_User talk:Monochrome MonitorMonitor 22:45, 9 May 2015 (UTC); edited to fix code colour display, Drcrazy102 (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Monochrome Monitor, thanks, same to you! ;P Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Beit Sakariya

Hello my dear,

Sorry for the long absence. Little time to spare but this needs an article. Added some sources to talk. Can you add more there if you have them? If someone starts filling it in I promise I will add more. Kisses, Tiamut^talk 19:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Lovely to see you! I have started "dumping stuff" at Talk:Beit Sakariya, not quite sure if it is on SWP map 17 or map 21? Huldra (talk) 21:52, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Zero0000: may I ask you to recover what you can find on Talk:Beit Sakariya, and dump it in User:Huldra/Beit Sakariya? Huldra (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank You

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For bravery and integrity during the Contribsx ArbCom case. Vordrak (talk) 23:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, thank you, User:Vordrak. I rarely get involved in these policy-issues (I´m basically a content-writer in the I/P aera)..but this was getting just too sickening. Glad he got desysopped, but there are still many unanswered questions about WMUK´s involvement. They have been less than complete transparent, put it that way. If there ever is a vote, I will vote for allotting 0,00 $ of WMF money to WMUK: they simply do not have my trust. Now, back to gnoming.... Huldra (talk) 23:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Bayt Nattif". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 21 June 2015.

Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 19:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Restored Hebrew name for Palestinian Arab village

Regardless of what we feel about the justification for a Palestinian Arab village becoming an Israeli colony, we should still include the Hebrew place names for these places, don't you agree? Otherwise I think we risk letting our POV enter the role of arbiter of the inclusion of facts. Let me know what your thinking is on this issue. Andrevan@ 01:42, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Andrevan: I will answer on the article talk page where this discussion belongs (I also note it was raised there, but brought to you less than an hour later: long before I had a chance to reply), Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:29, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Abu Zurayq

 — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Following up

Hi Huldra,

I saw your note and wanted to check in to see if you had any more information that might be useful for a possible bug report or feature request. If something wasn't working or didn't do what you want, then please let me know what you tried to do or what happened. (If you just didn't like it, then that's fine; I personally use both editing systems, depending upon what I want to do.)

Also, as a point of clarification, the goal isn't to make VisualEditor "the default"; the proposal is to make both options available, and to let editors choose which one they want to use (for each edit). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): Thank you for your note. Firstly, I should tell you that I mostly edit articles which comes under “Wikiproject Palestine”. Now, there are 3 things that count there, and that is references, references and references. Unreferenced, or badly referenced info is normally quickly removed from the articles. (We have many, many pro-Israeli editors who make sure of that!)

Since the same books often are referenced several times, we normally place the reference in a Biblio-section, and then use a “simple” ref in the article. Look at the above recent DYK, Abu Zurayq, for an example. And since the books often have extensive previews, we try to link to the page, like: <ref name="Benvenisti74">Benvenisti, 2000, p. [http://books.google.com/books?id=7itq6zYtSJwC&pg=PA74 74]</ref> How can I do that using the VE?

The above was a very simple example. A lot of the modern sources use books from pre-1900: say all the Pringle and Sharon-books I have mentioned in User:Huldra/Sources. Now, the wonderful thing is that these old sources are not copy-righted, and have all come online these last 10 years, either on books.google or archive.org (+ some other placed, like gutenberg). Now, even if not all the Pringle, or Sharon-pages are online, we can always link directly to their sources! Which is a wonderful thing to be able to, and is what I do, all the time. Take Mi'ilya, where a sentence like:
“In 1179 Viscountess Petronella of Acre sold the houses, vineyards and gardens of Mi'ilya to Count Jocelyn III, uncle of Baldwin IV,”
have as reference:
"Strehlke, 1869, pp. 11-12, No. 11; cited in Röhricht, 1893, RRH, p. 156, No. 587; cited in Pringle, 1997, p. 71" ....so that even if people cannot see the Pringle-page, they can always see his Strehlke and Röhricht-sources, as there is no copy-right on them.

How can I do references like this in VE? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

You only want to add sources like this? It's not too complicated: "Cite" button, "Manual" tab, "Basic form", and type it like you would type it out in the article itself. As with all links, the easiest thing to do is to type the label first (e.g., the "71" for the page number) and then select that and add the link to it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 07:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Whatamidoing (WMF): Thank you for that; I actually just did my first VE edit, ever, over at Aboud. A very simple edit: instead of linking to the whole of the 1922-census, I linked just to the page. Ok, I could do it, but is was a heck of a lot more cumbersome than doing it without the VE. (I´m not sure what you mean with "label" in the above, I normally use "label" for things like <ref name=Label1/>)
• In short: the type of links that I typically add, will always be complicated. The problem (for me) about the VE is that it just adds a level of obfuscation to the editing; an unnecessary level for me,
• And I remain quite unconvinced that what is "muddying the waters" for me, will be easy and transparent for a newbie, Huldra (talk) 07:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I seem to be speaking technical jargon today. "Label" is the part of the link that's visible to the user – the "foo" part in [[bar|foo]]. VisualEditor's system for creating links works like what people usually do in word processing documents and e-mail programs. For example, if you're sending a message at gmail.com, and you want it to say "foo" but take the person to http://example.com, then you first type "foo", and then highlight it, open the link tool, and type the URL into the blank. The wikitext system of typing the URL/target first and "foo" second is unusual. (This is probably why RecentChanges patrollers sometimes see newbies getting it backwards, i.e., typing [[bar|foo]] when they wanted [[foo|bar]].) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and there is actually an unofficial workaround for adding wikitext to citations. You can see the steps at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback/Archive 2015 2#Cannot use pre-formatted citations from NLA Trove. It's not elegant, but it does work. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, @Whatamidoing (WMF): for the explanation. But the fact remains: the VE, even if it "can handle" the type of references I´m adding, still just makes editing more cumbersome for me.

Now, what would really have helped me, would be a nice little tool which distinguished between what is in the text, and what is in the ref. Take a look at the "raw" text of Mi'ilya again: having what is inside the <ref> </ref> in, say, another another colour, would ease the editing greatly. Why don´t you implement a tool like that? Huldra (talk) 21:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Probably because it already exists: just turn on User:Cacycle/wikEd in your prefs (gadgets, middle of the screen under ==Editing==). I tried it a few years ago, and eventually turned if off. It felt slow, and I didn't want to figure out how to get syntax highlighting without any of the other features. The WMF's Editing group is looking at some needed upgrades to the wikitext editor, and this will be one of the things that gets considered – but that's likely to be a couple of years from now.

I agree that VisualEditor isn't the best choice in every instance. It's less convenient for some tasks (e.g., adding the same parameter to an infobox in hundreds of articles). There's also a bit of a learning curve for some things, and I can easily imagine an occasional editor not wanting to learn how to use 'the new thing'. But I also consistently hear that straight copyediting is easier when you don't have to look at the wikitext markup, and tables are easier (even for someone like me, and I frequently type out the code for a table from memory on pages VisualEditor isn't available). I want people to have the choice, and to use whichever one they want, whenever they want. I use both myself. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Eeeeeeech: I switched the wikEd on, and got just about the most unattractive editing page I have ever seen in my life. With half a zillion gadgets I never asked for. Puh: now off. That wikiEd was *way* overdone. You know, there was this old cartoon, starting with what a 5 year old (=customer) wanted, then ending up which what the engineering department came down with, and what the lawyers specified.... The 5-year old (=me!!) wants a simple boat to play with in the pond. The engineering department and lawyers came down with a 15 trillion hangar ship. That was wikiEd. I´m familiar with the "nice to have" concept, it is just that in our time and age that becomes "too much to have".

As for VE: it comes down to what I started with. In the area I edit, references are the key issue. Copyediting and tables are "icing on the cake", and generally, we are not there yet. (On minor numbers of articles: yes) Huldra (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

"Too much" was my reaction to WikEd as well. I really wanted just syntax highlighting, and not necessarily a lot of that. In happier news, I have confirmed that syntax highlighting is on the list for future work on the wikitext editor. Perhaps if you and I write the tasks up for Phabricator:, then we'll get what we want.  ;-) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF), well, I´m afraid that link was a bit daunting, Phabricator was a bit more understandable.

Back in 2009 I had a great problem, in that a user started the articles on all the villages here: Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus. That made it impossible to see which articles were developed, and which not. -John Vandenberg fixed it by this magic. Now, due to User:Huldra/monobook.css, I see all the stub-articles on that template as red-linked: a great, great help navigating around. I was hoping for a fix, something like that. (With the monobook.css, I can choose whatever colour I want: for text vs references I would probably try with some grey for the references, vs white for article text. Please give me a call if something like that is ever implemented! Huldra (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Qasim al-Ahmad

Gatoclass (talk) 11:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Beit Wazan

Gatoclass (talk) 11:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Aqil Agha

Hi Huldra. As you know, I've been working on the Aqil Agha draft page lately. I was wondering if you would like to move it to mainspace soon. It's under @Tiamut:'s user page, but because she's been inactive as of late, I thought I'd ask you since you had been editing the page with her from the start. The sourcing needs to be finished i.e. the citations need to be fully referenced in the Bibliography, and there are some minor issues (which I will bring up at the draft's talkpage later) that need to be addressed, but other than that, it appears ready for mainspace. We could nominate it for DYK and work on bringing it to GA status in the near future along with Daher el-Omar. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:54, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: heh, Tiamut copied that first draft from from User:Huldra/Sources back in 2010; and I think I speak for both of us when I say we would both be delighted if it *finally* moved into article-space. It is way, way, overdue. But as you note: some refs are are missing in the biblio, I note:

• Abujaber
• Manna, ed. Mattar, p
• Mattar, p. 347

....for a start.

It is way, way above the average DYK, IMO, but not quite there when it it comes to GA, yet, (Daher el-Omar is obviously closer), cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Great to hear. I say we move it tomorrow or the day after. I plan on nominating Daher el-Omar soon. There's some more material I want to add first, we also need to address the naming issue (I'm just waiting a couple days for other users' opinions, if any) and it would be nice to have a map showing the extent of his rule (which I recently requested from the Graphics Lab). --Al Ameer (talk) 03:23, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

188.31.7.154's talk page

quack, quack!

Hi, I noticed that you recently reverted the IP's edit(s) on thei talk page. Per WP:REMOVED, "Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. The removal of material from a user page is normally taken to mean that the user has read and is aware of its contents. There is no need to keep them on display and usually users should not be forced to do so.". Per WP:OWNTALK, "Although archiving is preferred, users may freely remove comments from their own talk pages. Users may also remove some conten". There was no reason to edit war for restoring the warnings when the IP didn't want to keep them. Please keep this in mind next time. 18:31, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Callmemirela, hi, I have given my reasons here, cheers, Huldra (talk) 18:35, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah

Hey Huldra. Does the aforementioned village correspond with Gariyya al-Kubra in Nahia Butayna? If it does, could you add the 1596 info on the village to the article? --Al Ameer (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

No, Gariyya al-Kubra is given as Levant grid 304/200, which is about 32°23′N, not the 32°44′N listed for al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah. Zero^talk 06:03, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: But something is wrong. The coordinates given at al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah, 32°44′N 36°12′E, are actually the coordinates of Khirbet Ghazaleh, which is what old and new maps show at that place. Al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah must be somewhere else. Zero^talk 07:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: I corrected the coords at al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah. The coords for Gariyya al-Kubra appear to place it in Jordan. What about Gariyya as-Suqra 7+ (265/233)? --Al Ameer (talk) 18:47, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son: Gariyya al-Kubra is so far east that it is still in Syria. Have not figured out which place, yet, though. But Gariyya as-Suqra 7+ (265/233) is definitely either Al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah or nearby Al-Ghariyah al-Sharqiyah: I`m not 100% certain; but my bet is on Al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah: looks closer to 265. Check with Zero. And lots of those Syrian places are in dire need of cleaning up: will try to do some, starting with Robinson and Smith. Also please check Maaraba: linked from Daraa Governorate, but is in the Al-Tall-district? Are there two places with the same name? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: What do you think?

@Al Ameer son: al-Ghariyah al-Gharbiyah is at 265/233 and al-Ghariyah al-Sharqiyah is at 268/232 (Palestine grid in both cases). Zero^talk 00:44, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. So it appears that Gariyya al-Suqra is Ghariya al-Gharbiya. Could one of you add the 1596 info to it? --Al Ameer (talk) 01:33, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son: Done, Huldra (talk) 20:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

To Huldra: I'm gonna try to work a little on the Hauran villages of Syria here and there. The Maaraba of Rif Dimashq is separate from the Maaraba of Daraa. I'll make the adjustment to the template. Thanks for adding some of the Robinson info. --Al Ameer (talk) 00:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Apropos topological doubling: we have a Qaryatayn in Syria, but no, as far as I can see, Qaryatayn for the Palestinian village, 5 miles south of Susiya, razed in 1948, and from whose refugees some of the present-day Susiyans descend.Nishidani (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Nishidani: Interesting; from what I can see, that Qaryatayn is inside the -48 borders of Israel; it should have been in the Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:25, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I see Kh. al Qaryatein at 161/084 but I don't see anything on it in the 1948 period. Called Tel Qeriyyot in Hebrew. Tsafrir, Dauphin, etc. SWP: Kh. el Kureitein. Guerin Jud. III, 180. Zero^talk 00:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The oral story is that they were told to fuck off, and walked back into the designated Palestinian area. Since they practiced transhumance from Arad (and apparently it now seems had Ottoman title also to 700 odd acres in the Susiya area) one can't quite pin them to fixed settlement, which is an alien concept. Thanks chaps. If after August 5, one can obtain Meiri's mapping of those 700 acres of Susiya Palestinian land, it will make the split in that article, which appears to have gone ahead without discussion, somewhat difficult.Nishidani (talk) 06:14, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Did you drop me a cautionary note on the 20th?

cautionary note on the 20th? Nishidani (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Nishidani: Yeah, I did. It is about the same old, same old. There are Stewards on meta who apparently are very familiar with the issue, though; my user-page is now protected, there, too. (Hmrpph: all this waste of time.....) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Would you email me please?

Hi Huldra,

I wonder if you would be kind enough to send me an email at philippe@wikimedia.org? I have something I'd like to update you on. Thanks, Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 09:22, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

@Philippe (WMF): Hi, I have emailed you, Huldra (talk) 10:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I have replied. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 11:11, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

1596 stats

Hey Huldra, whenever you have time could you add the 1596 info for Maaraba (I think it could be p67 Maraba 7+ (224/241)), Jamla (mz22 Jamla 7+ (229/245)) and al-Shajara, Syria (either p65 Sajara 7+ (232/242) or mz13 Sajara (238/227)). --Al Ameer (talk) 01:51, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Maraba 7+ (224/241) is around 32°46′N 35°47′E, as you can check from the Kafer el Ma-map, here, in other words: not Maaraba,_Daraa.

However, Jamla 7+ (229/245) pretty much agrees with Jamla 35°51E 32°48N; which would match nicely with Sajara 7+ (232/242) for al-Shajara, Syria 35°52′ E 32°46′N. I´ll add the data for Jamla and al-Shajara, Syria later today, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 10:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Done, please don´t hesitate to suggest more; or suggest it on User:Huldra/HA, cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, and don't worry, I'll keep them coming ;) --Al Ameer (talk) 21:11, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Maaraba, which redirect into Maaraba, Rif Dimashq is far too north to be in HA, but Maaraba, Daraa is 284/217 on 22M-Bosra-map = on User:Huldra/HA#p.219. Will add it later today, Huldra (talk) 02:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• Kafr Nasij - mz61 Kafr Nasij 7+ (247/284) --> map 19l, cannot find at the moment
• Al-Hirak, Syria - mz51 Harak as-Sarqi 7+ (273/239) or mz46 al-Harak al-Garbi 7+ (271/239)
• Maliha al-Atash - mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241) --Al Ameer (talk) 23:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Kafr Nasij is mz61 Kafr Nasij 7+ (247/284) --> map 19l, Sanameine: will add later today
  • Al-Hirak, Syria is mz51 Harak as-Sarqi 7+ (273/239) on -->Karak-map, 21m, though al-Harak al-Garbi 7+ (271/239) is so close, it could possibly be included (It is called "Deir es Salt": deserted in 1838): will add later today
  • Maliha al-Atash is possibly - mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241); named Maliha esh Charqiye on Karak-map, 21m; but if so: the co-ords in Maliha al-Atash are wrong; as those co-ords are too far north. Could you please check them? Will add the Al-Hirak, Syria -info tomorrow, Huldra (talk) 23:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Maliha al-Atash is in the correct position (according to google-earth) and it is definitely not mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241). In fact it is not old at all; not there on the 1952 -maps. (The Kerak-Map). The Burckhardt and Robinson-sources in the article must be about another "Maliha": I will remove them,
  • mz47 Malihat az-Zaytun 7+ (278/241) is Al-Maliha al-Sharqiyah in the Izra District: not made yet, Huldra (talk) 08:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Ataman - mz24 Atman 7+ (254/230) --Al Ameer (talk) 00:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
      • Done, thanks for starting it. Another interesting place is Aqraba, Syria, in Al-Sanamayn District, Deraa, It is mentioned in Yaqut al-Hamawi (le Strange), Huldra (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
        • I'll start on it tomorrow. Thanks for the le Strange tip. --Al Ameer (talk) 03:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

File:معبد_الإله_تيكة.jpg at Commons

I'm sorry but I had to decline your undeletion request over there. It looks like the image at the Arabic WP was not uploaded by the original photographer either. Please see the section at Commons:Undeletion requests for more details. De728631 (talk) 23:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Your detailed explanation is appreciated, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Striking out of Settleman's comments at AfD

While I understand your concern about socking with the recent case of ISavedPvtRyan and history of socking in this area, I am not sure it is a good idea to cross out their comments without an SPI case determining them to be a sock. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• User:Kingsindian: Sure, even if it was obvious from the beginning, I would never strike out ISavedPvtRyan`s comments without a SPI-case. Thank you for reporting him at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wlglunight93, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
• User:Kingsindian: ooopsh, sorry: yeah, my mistake: I mixed up ISavedPvtRyan and Settleman: sorry! Huldra (talk) 21:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Aqil Agha

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 17:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Sock

user:Emanquresu is probably a sock of Settleman... ([3]) Pluto2012 (talk) 07:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Pluto2012: Early days, but I don´t see the need for that extra account... we will see, Huldra (talk) 08:36, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Shihab al-Din tomb

Hi Huldra. I'm trying to clarify some things about the so-called Shihab al-Din tomb in Nazareth. The sources are conflicting, with some saying the tomb is the burial place of Shihab al-Din (a nephew of Saladin), some imply that this is a local belief, some say it was that of a Muslim/Sufi sage. I came across a snippet of Andrew Petersen's Gazeteer on page 241 and it says something about a "Maqam Shihab al-Din al-Qarafi". Do you have that book? If so, could you help me sort this out? I want to start an article to clear the matter up as part of a general improvement of Wikipedia's info on Nazareth. --Al Ameer (talk) 03:57, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Petersen, p. 241 does not say who the Maqam is for, he just describes it. Here is the complete description, on that page:

Maqam Shihab al-Din al-Qarafi (Fig. 90, Plates 254-255) This is located approximately 200m south of the Church of the Annunciation. The shrine stands in a small lane opposite Khan al-Pasha.

The floor level in the shrine is approximately 2m below that of the lane and is reached by a flight of stairs. The building consists of two parts, an old part covered by a dome, and a newer concrete part. The new part has a triangular plan and is joined on to the north side of the original structure. The older part has a rectangular plan consisting of a square area covered by a dome and a shallow iwan to the east. The dome rests on pendentives springing from large corner piers. There is a small doorway in the western wall providing access to the ablutions area. In the middle of the south wall is a modern flat wooden mihrab. The tomb of Shihab al-Din is located in the southern part of the iwan. It is likely that the eastern side of the iwan was originally open although it is now filled with a modern window.

Cheers, Huldra (talk) 11:00, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for info, I'll start the page soon, after a little more research. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe

You might be interested in mw:User:Remember the dot/Syntax highlighter. I haven't tried it, but the screenshot looks nice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing thanks for the tip. I have installed it, my first impression is that 5 different colours is a bit much; but perhaps I will get used to it? Will try it for a while, anyway, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing: yeah, 5 different colours were about 3-4 too many. The boat still isn´t small enough! Huldra (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

It might be possible to do some CSS magic to make several go away. Do you want all syntax highlighted the same color, or only some things highlighted? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:29, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing: For me it would be great to just have everything inside a reference, including the "ref-tags" in one different colour, take a previous example:

“In 1179 Viscountess Petronella of [[Acre, Israel|Acre]] sold the houses, vineyards and gardens of Mi'ilya to Count [[Jocelyn III]], uncle of [[Baldwin IV]],”<ref name=1179>Strehlke, 1869, pp. [http://archive.org/stream/tabulaeordinist00stregoog#page/n27/mode/1up 11]-12, No. 11; cited in Röhricht, 1893, RRH, p. [http://archive.org/stream/regestaregnihie00rhgoog#page/n162/mode/1up 156], No. 587; cited in Pringle, 1997, p. [http://books.google.ca/books?id=-_NbE5obqRMC&pg=PA71 71]</ref>

..so that I would see everything from (and including) "<ref name=1179>" to "</ref>" in one different colour. I don´t really need to have templates, or wikilinks, or any other syntax highlighted. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:33, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son/Shihab Din

This is hilarious. I knew Crosby, Stills and Nash were all over the place, but that's a bit far out of left field for them, I would think. Valuable lesson, maybe, about taking Google Book hits to the bank... Drmies (talk) 23:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Drmies Lol, yeah; I had to look several times before I understood what you were talking about. Btw, back in the day I met similar mess-up at the Moshe Sharon -books, but google seems to have cleaned it up by now, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Interesting subject matter, by the way. Has ArbCom written all over it, haha. I looked at a few of the books. Drmies (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Drmies: yeah, it is an *extremely* sensitive issue, to put it mildly, Huldra (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Good luck to you and the other editor in writing it up. Let me know if trouble finds you again. Drmies (talk) 00:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Drmies: thanks, and if you are alluding to my young Californian "fan", then this page has been wonderfully quiet since I got it semi-protected back in December: I really should have gotten that done earlier! There are some copy-cats out there, though; including a Telstra Internet IP from Australia (check that deleted edit). Hmm, I think I will refrain from welcoming any Telstra IP´s in the future... Huldra (talk) 20:11, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I apologize on behalf of humanity. We're slime, aren't we. Well, I have a fan too, and they have a number of pages on their website devoted to me; apparently I'm a cunt of all types. Please do let me know if I can help, and Malik Shabazz, thanks. Drmies (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Nah, not *all* are slime... ;P ....and Malik Shabazz got a new (& well deserved) "shiny thing". If I could advice anything, it would be to permanently protect talk-pages much, much sooner than is normally done today. Look at the logs for this site, and see all the puke that admins have had to mop up over the years: such a waste of time. Oh, and also: please be aware of Telstra Internet IPs from Australia, typically on Template:Palestinians, Palestinian territories etc: removing East Jerusalem, or placing places on the West Bank "in Israel". They have done it uncountable times, under I don´t know how many IPs. They always get reverted, but still continues.....There really are some really strange people out there...... (But then I guess they would consider me really strange, too: adding boring little things like tax-records or census-numbers to countless articles on villages, etc...:) ) Huldra (talk) 21:31, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Question regarding phrasing

I think you meant "threatened" here, right? And, just for the record, I don't think a permablock is necessarily enough in instances like that, I would love to see real legal action be considered, if possible. John Carter (talk) 22:01, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter: oopsh, sorry, yes; -fixed it now. (As you might have guessed: I am not a native English speaker: please don´t hesitate to point out my mistakes, or correct them).

And I would *love* to see the WMF take legal action...I have been hammering them so they would do something; so far I have not seen much of an effect. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case opened

You may opt-out of future notification regarding this case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Notification list. You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Evidence. Please add your evidence by September 8, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:43, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Grossman

I have added a long quote in Grossman source on Susya. It can probably be used for other villages but I couldn't Identify most of them b/c of the names. Please take a look. Settleman (talk) 21:14, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I´ll try in a day ....or three. One problem is that a lot of those places in the Template:Hebron Governorate are still red-linked. (It was a huge problem in trying to map User:Huldra/Guerin) Huldra (talk) 21:24, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

10 Y

Should you be compared to Katrina ? [4]. :-) Pluto2012 (talk) 20:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

LOL! ..and I, who had hoped for cup-cakes, balloons and fire-works... (nothing wrong with lipstick on a pig....?) Huldra (talk) 20:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Can you please explain...

when an attrubution or a name should be followed with a short description? On Susya someone added to Regavim 'settler activist organization' though it is a link and also say 'an NGO which petitioned the Supreme Court to execute the demolition orders at Khirbet susya'. Yet, David Shulman is bias is clear cannot be accompanied with such description. Settleman (talk) 05:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Why is David Shulman's bias clear? Have you read him? It makes painful reading. He is far more restrained than what, were activists writing what he witnesses every week, others would say about the criminal violence of certain groups of settlers in the South Hebron Hills. There are numerous bullies and thugs among them. I grew up among bullies and thugs, and I never thought to defend them because they share my ethnic background, and neither does Shulman, a Jew who performed aliyah, is deeply attached to Israel and wants it to be a democracy. Calling a spade a spade is not bias. Regavim is using every means within its grasp to seize land, and evict its traditional societies, from the land, out of an ideological conviction that 'it is all ours'. Shulman is defending civil rights in the great tradition of American Jews without whom segregation would have persisted, and many civil rights we are now proud of would never have been established. If you cannot understand how important the reformist civil rights tradition is within the other Zion, the United States, is for Jews, old and young, then you will never understand why much of the battle for Palestinian rights is driven by the tradition of Jewish secular idealism, not by some blind ethnonationalist obsession with real estate at whatever cost to those whom it with relentless pitilessness uproots and expels. Settlements are incompatible with Israel as a democracy. Nishidani (talk) 17:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Settleman: Two things: Firstly: I have learned -after editing here for a few years- to try to keep a conflict "contained", and not spreading it all over Wikipedia.

Secondly: I will admit I do not know the works of David Dean Shulman very well, (I have not read any of his books), but from what I can see he is first and foremost know as a scholar. If his Ta'ayush-activism was the only thing he was known for, then I doubt he would even have his own Wikipedia-bio. I therefore think it was totally uncalled for, what you did; going to a lot of articles, "labelling" him *only* as a Ta'ayush-activist. (But you might have noted that on, say Bil'in; I did *not* bring back "Israeli academic and pacifist", just left the link to his page.) Huldra (talk) 20:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Here for example, Shulman is the source for derogatory term 'fanatics'. I see WP:LABEL say these term should be used with care. Maybe it is OK to be left in because it is sourced but still, letting the reader know the author isn't exactly main stream opinion but rather of an activist of far-left organization, is important. I hope to get to library tomorrow. Settleman (talk) 22:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Settleman: Well, from what I can read from that article (not that I trust Wikipedia, much!) "fanatics" seem like quite a mild term for the settlers of Ma'on, Har Hebron...attacking people with clubs?! Seriously. Nishidani´s expression "bullies and thugs" seems to fit better.

Looking forward to any Vilnai-info, Huldra (talk) 22:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Btw, WP:LABEL also say: "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution". From my understanding of WP:LABEL: if Nishidani or myself had called the settlers of Ma'on, Har Hebron for 'fanatics' (based on their action) or even "bullies and thugs", then obviously, that would be cover by WP:LABEL, and should not be permitted. But here is case where it is used with "in-text attribution" Huldra (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it nice to look at one side of the coin? Just a reminder, that year (2001) Yair Har-Sinai was murdered not far from there. The are extremists on both sides and bringing WP:LIBEL from an activist is silly. According to WP:BIASED this is required. Settleman (talk) 17:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for 10 wonderful years

		The Resilient Barnstar
		This is in thanks to you for the 10 years you have spent helping to keep things here useful for the readers and, as far as possible, easier for the other editors to function in. And for your having served those ten years while having to endure things that few of us have been subjected to. And for spending a lot of that time in the minefield of the Israel-Palestine field. A lot of us have quit either the project or a topic area for far worse reasons, and it is very welcome to see someone show the courage to stand up even under the extreme provocation you have endured. John Carter (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter: Whaw! Very nice birthday-present, thanks! Huldra (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	Congratulations on your wikidecade! Here's a big thank you from one editor who greatly appreciates your work, and should have acknowledged that many more times in the past. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Oncenawhile Oh, la, la: thanks! Greatly appreciated! Huldra (talk) 22:59, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

For diligent addition of excellent new material, and for always trying to get the facts right, you are unbeatable! Congratulations, and welcome to the veterans club! Zero^talk 23:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Zero0000 Thanks! Huldra (talk) 23:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Australia IP

The IP is back reverting me again and unfortunately I will only be on mobile for a few hours. I thought I should let you know. Rubbish computer 15:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC) Rubbish computer 15:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Rubbish computer: Sigh, yeah, so far today I´ve noted:

• 120.144.129.172 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 120.144.134.25 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 121.214.15.161 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)@@
• 124.180.155.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I *do* wish they would find another hobby! Btw: thank you for your help! Huldra (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

They're all blocked at the moment, but I don't understand why these IPs keep getting temporarily blocked when they do nothing but vandalism, trolling and harrassment. Anyway, I'm back on my computer now.--Rubbish computer 21:47, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Rubbish computer: I assume it is because they are dynamic IPs, that is, each time they turn their computer, or server on/off, they will get a new IP. So there is no need to block them for more than a day or three: the person behind this has moved on to a new IP by then, Huldra (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Okay. Rubbish computer 21:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Ten Year Society

Dear Huldra,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Ten Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for ten years or more.

Best regards, John Carter (talk) 21:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I actually just saw someone else get this invitation, and even though I ain't a member myself, I think anyone can at least advise potential members of their qualification. John Carter (talk) 21:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter: Heh; apparently I added myself to that exclusive group with this edit..... Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Template color

You have mail! Zero^talk 10:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Please revert

The census of 45 is mentioned by Regavim so we have a source who makes the claim. (It was also 1RR). Settleman (talk) 17:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Shatta

Hi, Beit HaShita was formed in the 1930s on the lands of the Arab village of Shatta (SWP:Shutta, 190/217) after it was purchased from the absentee owner and the residents evicted. After that, Arab Shatta ceased to be, though the name Shatta continued in use for a while. On the other hand, a lot of the usual sources refer to it. Would you recommend a separate article, or should it be an expansion of Beit HaShita? Refs: Not in Hutteroth, Guerin Sam I 301-303, Dauphin 776, census1922 Baisan list, Robinson1852 339, SWP II 126. There's lots of stuff on the 1930s purchase and court case (Huneidi, Kark, Stein, etc). Zero^talk 03:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Very* interesting case.

• ..Probably, by Afula, Merhavia (kibbutz), Kiryat Ata, Bethlehem of Galilee, Alonei Abba: Same geographical place: same article. I have Dauphin 776; Robinson,1856, p. 339; Guerin, (visited in 1870,) pp. 301-2; SWP II pp. 86 and 126; census1922 Baisan list, I´ll gladly add these, but I have no access to the 1930s purchase and court case ..: I´´ll leave that to you. Ok? Huldra (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Telstra vandal

Good luck with whatever you need to do about this. You're a strong person and a great editor. Rubbish computer 21:55, 12 September 2015 (UTC) Rubbish computer 21:55, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Rubbish computer Thanks, for the kind words. Huldra (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. --Rubbish computer 22:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• What does the vandal want anyway? The approach that comes to my mind is simply to figure out what he wants, then get together a bunch of people to deny it to him. Wnt (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Wnt: That is really not to difficult to see; it is one of those 13 to the dozen editors who is allergic to the word "Palestine"; like here, changing everything into "Israel". He acts very much like my old friend: and rest assured: they are always reverted. But these are not, how can I put it? Eh, not very rational people. They go totally ballistic, like a 3 year old, when they are denied. And then comes the rape and death threats.......This has been going on for 5 years. You have no idea as to how thick a skin I have developed; the problem is: we are simply not getting new editors in this area of Wikipedia: they get scared out of their minds. This really has to stop. My thought was that if we range-blocked Telstra: that would "wake them up", to address the problem. I suspect that such a range-block would not last long (I´m hoping Australian Wikipedians will take their rage out on Telstra, not on me!) (And no: I don´t want the guy in jail; IMHO; he needs a doctor, or a shrink more than he needs a jailer.) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I am tempted to troll the troll by suggesting a move from Duma, Nablus to Duma, Palestine. It seems very wrong to me that this link has to be redirected in the first place. Honestly, I'd even prefer Duma, Israel though, simply because "Duma, Nablus" is the one article title we could have that you have to click on the link (or change it) to figure out where in the world it is. I looked up United Nations General Assembly observers and it's sort of a wash: Vatican City needs no specification; going to less related examples, Toi, Niue follows the convention, but Lugu, Nantou and cogeners use that awful county specification. Do you think I'd have a chance, or is this already settled somewhere? :) Wnt (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Wnt Please don´t. The problem is that loads of these places have more or less similar names.... (they typically come from the same Arabic word): Taybeh (disambiguation) (=The goodly), Rumman (=pomegranate), Haditha (disambiguation) (=The New One), Tira. (Btw, each and every scholar on Middle East history have mixed up one or more of them....) The present naming structure has developed over years...hell will break lose if you unilaterally try to change it. As long as Duma, Palestine redirs to Duma, Nablus; I´m good. But using XX, Palestine, as main article is simply too generic.

Trolling the trolls isn´t really the answer, me thinks. Huldra (talk) 22:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	In great appreciation of your long-standing work on Wikipedia, your painstaking attention to detail and diligent search for accuracy. P.S. I give out very few barnstars, so anyone receiving one from me can be sure that she has earned it! NSH001 (talk) 08:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

User:NSH001; coming from an editor I deeply respect: this is greatly appreciated! Thanks! Huldra (talk) 20:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

I'm really sorry to hear about the Telstra mess. You have my support, and I wish you the best and thank you for all of your hard work. GABHello! 00:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

User:GeneralizationsAreBad: Mmmm, thanks! Taste nice! Huldra (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Your record of starting unnecessary AFDs

• Huldra, you habitually bring articles in which Jews are killed by Palestinians to AFD, and you do so with little apparent regard to sourcing or impact. See, for example, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The murder of Yehuda Shoham. If some other editor nominates an article in which Palestinian militants kill a Jew, you vote to delete and offer straw-man arguments, as here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Death of Binyamin Meisner. A scan of your past AFD nominations shows that you even started this AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palestinian stone-throwing. If you have a strategy, rather than a mere animus, it seems to be to put articles that reflect badly on Palestinian militancy up for AFD - irrespective of how well-sourced or significant the topic is - and hope that they get deleted. What is clear is that your standard for starting an AFD is: WP:IDONTLIKEIT.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any idea how many articles could be created for Palestinians killed by Israelis? We dont do that. The ones that are created have a lasting impact per WP:NOTNEWS. You habitually create articles on every incident you can find with the apparent purpose of creating a narrative of Palestinians are "hooligans" or "terrorists" irrespective of whether or not it is routine news or has a lasting impact. What is clear is your standard for creating an article is: Palestinians bad. nableezy - 15:40, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Nableezy, individuals who throw rocks at human beings are hooligans, and, in the Palestinian case, terrorists with the avowed aim of driving Jews into the sea. This, in my opinion, has echoes on Wikipedia where editors like Huldra attempt to drive pro-Israel editors away by harassment and hounding. Note that no editor is required to create articles on every aspect of anything. What editors are required to do is to maintain a NPOV and to use sources fairly and accurately - a thing that I strive to do. As for choice of topic, I create lots of article - on things that interest me. I am interested, for example, in theater, but have little taste for Metalcore or hardcore punk. I therefore do not create article on Metalcore bands. What I do not do is iVote to delete well-sourced articles about Metalcore, or regularly bring articles about new Metalcore bands to AFD. I view Huldra's behavior in regularly bringing well-sourced articles about incidents judged significant by governments and the international press core to AFD as a form of WP:WIKIHOUNDING wherein she creates a lot of work for editors whose politics she dislikes, makes editing an exceedingly wearisome and unpleasant experience for editors who oppose the throwing of rocks at people, and makes the entire Israel/Arab sphere so battleground-like and unpleasant that many editors quit and editors who work on AFDs in other areas are reluctant to weigh in on AFDs related to the middle east conflict. I think that her practice of doing so is so longstanding and so clear that it amounts ot a strategy, and I would like her to rethink her aggression and highly POV evaluations of new articles.19:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by E.M.Gregory (talk • contribs)

with the avowed aim of driving Jews into the sea lollll. Yeah, a rock is gonna do that. Or maybe they are people using whatever weapon they have available against a country that has much more sophisticated weapons and a repeatedly shown aversion to not using said weapons against them while illegally stealing their land and occupying their territory and subjugating them all while playing the victim card to the world, aided by those who look at, for example, the 34 Israelis killed by Palestinians since 2009 compared to the 641 Palestinians killed by Israelis in that same time and determine that only those 34 deaths are "notable" and "acts of terrorism" commited by "terrorists" or "holligans" with an aim of "driving Jews into the sea". And as far as the horseshit about editors needing to be NPOV and that you apparently maintain such, need I remind you of your attempt to rename an article about an arson that has been covered across the world into an article about the curious case of multiple arson attacks on two brothers in a transparent attempt to whitewash what settlers routinely do to the property and on occasion lives of the native population? Or your comment that said article should be deleted because it was just "rumors"? nableezy - 20:29, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

For children killed in the conflict, there already is about 100 times more material for each Jewish victim, compared to each Palestinian victim. For adults too: the amount of space the average Jewish victims is given is ridiculously higher than the space given to the average Palestinian victim. Yes: I confess: a Palestinian life is just as much worth to me as a Jewish, (or American, or European) life, If that makes me strange: I pity you. (And rest assured: all your "Only Jewish lives matter"-friends will turn up at that AfD. They always do.) Huldra (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Apparently, 'the world' (or at least the media) sees a difference which is why the coverage is so different. All palestinians, AFAICR, who were murdered by Israeli citizens in recent years got a massive coverage and an article. Mohammed Abu Khdeir, Duma arson attack or even the Beitunia killings where the Magavnick shot with no reason. The world doesn't care enough to write about a rioter being shot or a terrorist being taken out. So notability isn't a game of balance but actual coverage and interest of the public.

In this particular case, the attack may result in making punishment more severe which may makes it even more notable. Settleman (talk) 06:56, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, do you want me to mention who control much of that media, and where their priorities/sympathies lie? And your "The world doesn't care enough to write about a rioter being shot or a terrorist being taken out," is most disingenuous; are children "a terrorist being taken out"? 1656 Palestinian children vs 131 Israeli children killed, and the Israeli children killed get 10 times more coverage? Who do you think you are fooling? Huldra (talk) 22:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

And,btw, you could also have mentioned Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Killing of Yehoshua Weisbrod and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Netanel Arami, cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

• Fascinating. No, appalling. Particularly the sources that popped up when I searched on Yehoshua Weisbrod. I am stunned , simply stunned reading about the bloody-mindedness and sheer cruelty. Cannot imagine why an article on an murder as horrific and widely-covered as that was deleted. So many witnesses. So many news stories. Even a United Nations peacekeeper sitting right there and failing to save this man as he was mobbed and bashed to death with rocks. Maybe there should be an article on: Death by stoning after taking a wrong turn in Gaza. Do you know how I can access the Wikipedia article you deleted?E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:24, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

...and what the heck was he doing in Gaza? Note also the Deletion review. As for "the world' (or at least the media) sees a difference", iow, news-coverage being biased, take a look at the English news in the region, and note how many times they are used on Wikipedia:

• Arutz Sheva: "Arutz Sheva": 643 israelnationalnews.com: 213
• Haaretz: 5,911 (Btw, even this Israeli newspaper, much criticised by the right for being to "Arab-friendly", note from the article: "A 2003 study in The International Journal of Press/Politics concluded that Haaretz‍ ' s reporting of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict was more favorable to Israelis than to Palestinians.")
• The Jerusalem Post: 3,108
• Yedioth Ahronoth: ynetnews: 1,537 ynet (Hebrew): 1,718
• Ma'an News Agency: maannews: 48

.....the only "pro-Palestinian" source here is Ma'an News, the other are Israeli. In short; to me it looks as if English sources used from the region are overwhelmingly pro-Israeli. (Ok, this was just based on the "search" function here, which is not very good, I know. Eg. List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015 use several maan-sources , but it does not show up in search: apparently if you don´t mark it as a maan-source, it will not show in "search". If you have a better way to search: I´m listening.) Btw, what do you think the chances for 10 year old Ahmed Moussa from Ni'lin, shot and killed in 2008 by the Israeli military, having an article of his own....IF he had been Israeli/Jewish? I would think the chances would have been excellent. But now...? Oh, he is just "a rioter being shot or a terrorist being taken out", no-one to care about, eh? Huldra (talk) 21:09, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Identifying a place name

Hulda, I have a source that says that a person is from: Kafr Talouza (north of Nablus). Any idea what else it might be called / how else transliterated?E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

User:E.M.Gregory I would suspect they meant Talluza, northeast of Nablus. The word " Kafr" is often added to any village name, Huldra (talk) 23:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks. Do you suppose we could get the United Nations to work out an international convention on the transliteration of Arabic?E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

User:E.M.Gregory: Doubt it; though it would have been useful. I don´t know Arabic, but my impression is that those who do, seem to be generally against it. Btw, my nick is "Huldra", not "Hulda", and I *do* know what Hulda means in Hebrew, Huldra (talk) 22:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I was joking. But I am sorry about misspelling your name, I am amng thw world's worst seplers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:26, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Lol, tht mst be after me.... ...one of the reasons I contribute to English Wikipedia, and not to the Wikipedia in my native tongue, is that we don´t have a good spell-checker in my native tongue. Seriously. So there my dyslexia is very clear....In English I´m better hiding it.... Huldra (talk) 20:32, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

DRN for Duma

Here. Settleman (talk) 06:37, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:ANI

As per your request, I posted you at WP:ANI. I am not sure, what will come of this. Depends if admins will see this as a behavioral issue, a content dispute or a WP:ARBPIA problem. Debresser (talk) 17:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Prodding for discussion at DRN: Duma arson attack#Ya'alon on Jewish extremists

Hello Huldra, just checking to see if you are wanting to join the discussion occurring at the dispute resolution noticeboard concerning the article Duma arson attack. If you could please either join or let us know that you do not wish to join the discussion, that would be much appreciated. Thanks, Drcrazy102 (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Drcrazy102, thank you for the reminder, I´m working on a reply, but I´m not yet quite sure if I will involve myself here, Huldra (talk) 21:59, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Settleman

For your information. I happened to see Israeli West Bank barrier and observed that Settleman is a successor of Averysoda. --Qualitatis (talk) 13:05, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Qualitatis: By WP:ASPERSIONS, you should never make such allegations anywhere, *except* on the WP:SPI page. Also note that User:Averysoda was a User:Wlglunight93-sock, so you should mention that in any SPI, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:13, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Question

@Zero0000: Would you have any idea what the original source(or author) for this picture is: [5] It's a sketch of Jenin with its mosque from 1880. I'd like to upload it with the proper information. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I´m sorry; I do not recognise it, from the style I would guess it is from some 1880s-1890s -book; I think your best chance is to put a note up on the "comment"-section, or, if possible, contact the uploader.

It's in the style (and colouring) of Harry Fenn, and the full title appears to be 'The mosque of Jenîn. Surrounded by gardens; an aqueduct and fountain in the foreground,' reproduced in Sir Charles William Wilson's multi-volume Picturesque Palestine, Sinai and Egypt, D. Appleton, New York 1884. It doesn't appear googable, however. Nishidani (talk) 21:06, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Thanks! ..but which of the 4 volumes?

• Wilson, Charles Williams, ed. (c. 1881). Picturesque Palestine, Sinai and Egypt. Vol. 1. New York: D. Appleton. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |editorlink= (help)

• Wilson, Charles Williams, ed. (c. 1881). Picturesque Palestine, Sinai and Egypt. Vol. 2. New York: D. Appleton. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |editorlink= (help)

• Wilson, Charles Williams, ed. (c. 1881). Picturesque Palestine, Sinai and Egypt. Vol. 3. New York: D. Appleton. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |editorlink= (help)

• Wilson, Charles Williams, ed. (c. 1881). Picturesque Palestine, Sinai and Egypt. Vol. 4. New York: D. Appleton. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |editorlink= (help)

Huldra (talk) 21:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Found it; vol 2, p. 22, Huldra (talk) 21:14, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Attaboy!:)Nishidani (talk) 21:39, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Hmmmprf, Huldra (talk) 21:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

On another matter; there seem to be broad agreement (heh! ..that is, between Zero and myself....) that Ayn Karim and Ein Karem should be merged, likewise with Qamun and Qira, Haifa. Is there anyway to merge them, preserving the history? Or should we create a new article for "Qira wa Qamun"? Khalid calls it Qira (Qira wa Qamun), Huldra (talk) 20:32, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I might leave a comment. Anyway, there was a nice painting by David Roberts that I added instead. Palestine Remembered has tons of historical photos of Jenin. If only ARIJ could make a profile for the city with all of the contemporary info that comes with it, I would begin working on making it a GA. Same for Tulkarm, which is in much better shape. So far, only the Tulkarm and Jenin Governorates have not been covered in detail by ARIJ.

As for the mergers. It appears that all the content in 'Ayn Karim has already been added to Ein Karem, so not sure if the edit history of 'Ayn Karim should be merged as well. If it is redirected, the history will be preserved in the redirect. Same for Qira wa Qamun (if that's what we're going to call the article). You could create a new article and merge both into the new one, but I think it's better to just copy and paste the info from Qira to Qamun with the necessary c/e and appropriate placement. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah; David Roberts is always a nice choice...and I spent some major time, last year cleaning up the "Demographics" -section in Jenin: I was fooled, as it looked so "professional"; it turned out that the vandal had just copied your "Demographics"-section from Gaza city!! ...see the talk. That took more than 4 years to discover.....we need more eyes on these articles....I think I´ll make redir of Ayn Karim; still not quite sure what we should call the Qira/Quamun-article, Huldra (talk) 21:05, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you both. I uploaded it. Please correct any information that isn't accurate. Here's the file.

I agree, a much better eye needs to be kept on the major cities especially. In the Qalqilya article, it stated that the population was 91,000 according to the 2007 census backed by the citation, when in fact the census recorded 41,000. An error of only >110%. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

not in the sources mentioned?

No, it is in the sources! And why did you revereted the rest of my modifications?... Please look at the sources, even if you have a great experience on Wikipedia. It is hurtful to be accused of lying. Best wishes. --... Point by point ... (talk) 22:30, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Point by point: besides removing the long-standing "an ethnic group comprising"...your additions were not acceptable, "The PLO molded and developed the construction and creation of the palestinian ethnicity symbolized by Islam and the Arabic language" really?? If you had said that about Hamas, I could more have understood you. Again: take it to the talk-page, Huldra (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry, apparently it is not acceptable for you. But it is in the sources, therefore it is acceptable for Wikipedia. You can disagree with the sources, but not accusing me of wrongdoing.

Here is the picture with All rights reserved to Mohammed Abed/Getty image/ AFP [6]. The picture has been modified; and there is no mentions of Mohammed Abed/Getty image/ AFP. --... Point by point ... (talk) 22:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Point by point: First of all, any discussion about the acceptability, or not, of a picture on commons should go there, not on this talk-page. Secondly; the pictures are clearly different (with the commons-picture showing the white-hooded man on the left.) The commons picture is also by Mohammed Abed, but not Getty images, see Commons:Deletion requests/File:Israeli phosphorus-shelling school 2009.jpeg, So the photographer took more than one picture during the attack: not really surprising, is it? Huldra (talk) 23:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Here is a youtube from the attack on the school, Huldra (talk) 23:41, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the war porn, indeed, it appears to be two different shots. However, the difference in the image quality is doubtful to me, and I was primarily suspecting a copyright violation. I suppose it was not uploaded under M. Abed/AFP authorization. --... Point by point ... (talk) 01:42, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Point by point: Ok, that is another question. I object to the tendency for a conflict, or disagreement, to spread out over many pages. As I said; the question of wether or not this picture should be on commons: that question should be discussed on commons; and not here, Huldra (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case proposed decision posted

Hi Huldra. A decision has been proposed in the Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case, for which you are on the notification list. Please review this decision and draw the arbitrators' attention to any relevant material or statements. Comments may be brought to the attention of the committee on the proposed decision talk page. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 20:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC) (via MediaWiki message delivery (talk))

Editor of the Week

		Editor of the Week
		Your ongoing efforts to improve the encyclopedia have not gone unnoticed: You have been selected as Editor of the Week for your long-term efforts to help new editors. Thank you for the great contributions! (courtesy of the Wikipedia Editor Retention Project)

Editor User:John Carter submitted the following nomination for Editor of the Week:

I nominate Huldra (talk · contribs · count · logs) for her singular courage and endurance. She has over 37,000 edits in roughly 10 years as an editor, in which time she has gotten over 50 DYKs. Her primary focus of attention is the Israel-Palestine subject area, including a lot of the recent events there. Current event articles are among the hardest ones we have to work on, because, among other things, there aren't necessarily any previous articles which can be found in other sources to compare them with. And current event articles in contentious areas, like the Israel/Palestine area, is even worse. There are a number of fanatics on both sides, and comparatively few others to deal with them and keep the content up to a reasonable level. In her particular case, she has even threatened with rape for her efforts in keeping the content in reasonable shape. There is not, and cannot be, any excuse for such behaviour on the parts of the threat makers. But the number of people who would be willing to subject themselves to such abuse to keep content on controversial topics useful to the readers is small, and I think those who do deserve our greatest thanks and respect.

You can copy the following text to your user page to display a user box proclaiming your selection as Editor of the Week:

{{subst:Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention/Editor of the Week/Recipient user box}}

Huldra

Defender of the Reader

Editor of the Week for the week beginning October 18, 2015

An editor of courage and endurance

Recognized for

Her willingness to edit in the face of abuse and remain calm

Notable work(s)

The Israel/Palestine Arena

Nomination page

Thanks again for your efforts! Buster3.5 (talk) 15:21, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

User:John Carter, User:Buster3.5: thank you so much; I really appreciate it! Huldra (talk) 20:15, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

One of the benefits of facilitating the Eddy award is that I get to meet quality editors like you. Too many veteran editors spend too much time at the various drama-laden pages of Wikipedia. They rarely take the time to see the hard working editors that fly under the radar of contention and strife and they begin to look at WP as one argument after another. Editors like you are the heartbeat of Wikipedia. Thanks for all you do. Happy New Year. Buster Seven Talk 17:18, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations Huldra, have a nice new year. Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 22:11, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

@Buster7: @Rubbish computer: thank you both, for your nice words, Huldra (talk) 23:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Asking for advice

Hello Huldra,

This problem concern principally, me and the user -Serialjoepsycho-.

The user -Serialjoepsycho- has deleted a message I left on his talk page [7]. Therefater, he left a respond on my talk page saying that "the appropriate place to respond is over on the talk page of the article"[8]. I tried to continue the discussion on his talk page, after it. the user -Serialjoepsycho- then removed both comments. I try to add the first comment he deleted, and a comment in which I quoted his answer, but the user -Serialjoepsycho- deleted the second comment again and again. I wrote a comment indicating that "The comment of ... Point by point ..., has been deleted by user -Serialjoepsycho- because he "wanted it to be deleted"" as he explained on my talk page, but this "third" comment was soon removed [9]. Then, he argued that he had the right to delete my comments on his talk page and on the talk page of the article "List of military occupation"[10], pretending, it was his comment[11] and also attacking me on the personal level. Finally, he moved and modified his comments, in the middle of the conversation we had. Making the conversation incomprehensible. [12]

Please; could you give me an advice, about how I should handle and resolve "this problem". Thanking you in advance for your assistance in this matter. Kind regards. --... Point by point ... (talk) 21:51, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• User:Point by point: anyone can delete comments on their own user-page. By deleting a comment, you have in a way acknowledged that you have seen it. I would consider it not very polite to repeat it. So yeah: Serialjoepsycho has every right to remove any comment you leave on his/her talk-page.
• And generally; comments about an article should go on that article talk-page; this so that editors later can see the discussion. (Other editors of the article, a month or a year from now, cannot possible know that they should go to your, or Serialjoepsycho-talk-page, to see the discussion.)
• On an article talk-page: Normally it is not good to remove ones comment completely, *if* someone has responded to it. Instead, on should "strike" them out, like this. If someone deletes his/her comments on an article talk-page, after someone else have responded, then you would be in your right to ask them to stop doing that. Huldra (talk) 22:15, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your concise answer,

In order to respond to his answer, on the talk page "List of military occupation"[13] as he asked for:

• Do you think it is forbidden for me, to quote the answer (of the comment he deleted), that he left on my talk page?
• Do you think he has the right to delete my comment on the talk page "List of military occupation"? (The comment was part of the discussion)

Also, I was trying to be nice and I struck out the quotation, after he told me that he "wanted to delete it" and tried to removed all of my comment. [14]

• Do you think he has the right to move and modify a comment after I have respond to it, Making the conversation incomprehensible?

--... Point by point ... (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2015 (UTC)--... Point by point ... (talk) 23:07, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• User:Point by point: firstly; I see that first you posted on User:Serialjoepsycho talk-page, which s/he then removed, then you repost exactly the same message: if someone did that on my user-page, I would be rather irritated. This is unnecessarily provocative. You really should not do that.
• Secondly: I see that you have copied Serialjoepsycho´s post from one page to another: again: that is really not something you should do. (Unless you find the posts so troubling, that you repost them to WP:AN, or a similar place). Forgive me for not going through all the history on Talk:List of military occupations, but if you moved a comment of Serialjoepsycho from a user-page to that article-talk-page; well, then s/he has every right to remove it, IMO, Huldra (talk) 23:32, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok, It would be logical, to mention his message before responding to it...I don't think you would be irritate, because at first instance you would not delete a comment, then answer to it on another page, while asking to respond on another page. But I was not talking about his/her feelings, whatsoever. For my part, S/he has made offensive comments, that might irritate a majority of people. And actually, as I said I did not moved his comment, I quoted it.It's under my signature . Do you think it is forbidden to quote him? Do you think s/he has the right to delete my comment or move and modify his own comments on the talk page Talk:List of military occupations? Do you think I should do something about it?

--... Point by point ... (talk) 00:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

-User:Point by point: without going into all the details: this really looks like "a storm in a tea-cup" to me. And there is only one advice I can give in such a case, and that is WP:DROPTHESTICK. In short: just leave it, Huldra (talk) 20:45, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Ramallah

Hi, Huldra

I saw your changes to my edit and apreciated the new bits of info.

I have reverted some language to my initial edit as I felt that some adjectives and nouns used before and some later were bringing unnecessary confusion to the text.

Also I have eemoved references to general situauons that did not have any connection to the history of the city.

If you want to continue to edit, please do so without burdening the text with heavy incursions contentious stuff and keep it simple.

Please also note that references to poltical texts without proper warning is inconsistent with Wikipedia standards of accuracy as it introduces an aditional layer of discussion the reader might not be famikiar with. It would be appreciated if you referenced info mainly or idealy exclusively to peer-reviewd and academically vetted material or orherwise make proper warnings in the text as to the opinionated nature of statements.

Thanks

ABY Adir Bar Yohanan (talk) 22:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Adir Bar Yohanan: lets see, in these edits to Ramallah you removed all mentioning of "Palestinians", and instead included "Samaria" for the West Bank. Firstly: the word "Samaria" is not used outside describing places in the Biblical era, secondly, Wikipedia has no place for people who are allergic to the word "Palestinian". Simply, no. Huldra (talk) 22:38, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Marie Serneholt

If you want to, please take a look at this weeks TAFI selected article, Marie Serneholt. Regards.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:48, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

User:BabbaQ, thank you for your request, but I have no great interest in Swedish pop bands.... cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:12, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Jaba', Jenin

Thanks for this article Victuallers (talk) 12:01, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Marj Sanur

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion

Hello, Huldra. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Leon Uris and Exodus. Thank you. --Light show (talk) 03:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Invitation to Edit

Hello @Huldra:, very sorry we all had to experience the unpleasantness from the above user. I think the case is resolving itself. You sound like you have some direct and academic experience on a number of topics having to do with Israel. Would you be interested in reviewing/editing this article: Beta_Israel ? Nothing too controversial here (and no trouble-makers thus far) but there are some "on the ground" issues/topics I think we could get more info on. Thanks!Trinacrialucente (talk) 22:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@Trinacrialucente: Thanks, but I edit -mostly- geographical places in Israel/Palestine, finding sources for their history pre-1948. I am afraid I know next to nothing about Beta Israel, so I cannot promise I will do any work there, Huldra (talk) 22:39, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Completely understood. Take care.Trinacrialucente (talk) 22:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Al-Judeida

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Duh!

Hey kid, could ua pull ya nose out of that huge dusty tome for a sec, and just a brief note on my page enlightening me about the whereabouts of Qutna, in the Ramallah district, northeast of Jerusalem? Fanks, in anticipation, but otherwise, if it's a bovver, faged it. Yours, Nishiduncie.Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

and, how on earth does one get Muhammad Najati Sidqi nominated for DYK? ("Did you know that a Palestinian, Muhammad Najati Sidqi, wrote a book arguing that Nazism was incompatible with Islam?". Is it too late? I created it on 7 December 2015‎.Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Nishidani: the only village resembling that name NW of J.lem is Qatanna. And googling around, I found that the killed Anas Muntaner Taha is alternatively found to be from Qatanna, link, and "Qutna" link.

And I see NSH001 will fix the DYK-nom (nice article!).....I normally let Al Ameer sons fix it.....;) Huldra (talk)

Sorry for the bother. It's a mystery. Qatanna is in the Jerusalem governate, whereas Qutna is described as in the Ramallah al Bireh governorate, and north-east, not north-west, of Jerusalem. Well, to be kept in mind. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 10:45, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Nishidani: where does it say that it is in the Ramallah and al Bireh governorate? There is nothing like that name in the arij profiles of that governorate. And Maan-news, here and here describes it as "northwest of Jerusalem"? Huldra (talk) 20:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Brapologies,

This may sound stupid or odd, but I never meant to revert your edit at the Bra page. My cat stepped on the tablet, and it seems their paws do the same as our fingers. Any road, Kitty (who is currently cleaning her foot) and I, apologise. Best, Kafka Liz (talk) 20:51, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Kafka Liz, heh, yeah, I wondered what was so offensive about it! And I envy you your cat...I travel too much to have any, but absolutely love them..... Cheers, Huldra (talk)

I'd have to ask her, and while she is expressive, she isn't always as clear as one might prefer. This one... She was older when she came to live with me.

There is a lot I'd want to change about my life, but God help me if I couldn't make a good home for cats. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Kafka Liz Huldra (talk) 21:18, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

December 2015

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours for edit warring, as you did at As'ad AbuKhalil. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.  Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

Huldra (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

Unbeliveable. First time in over 10 years editing and 40 K edits that I have been blocked. I reverted an editor who should not have been editing the article in the first place ....pr WP:ARBPIA3. ;User:Ks0stm please learn the latest arb.com sanctions before you give long-time editors their first-ever block! No wonder "new editor" Terrible towel7 triumphs..... Sigh. Huldra (talk) 00:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Accept reason:

See below. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I read the template on the top of the talk page and blocked you based on the part saying "All articles related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, broadly construed, are under WP:1RR", while noting that your reverts did not meet either exception stated in the template ("Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring.") Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Incredibly incompetent. Unblock her now. "IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters."Dan Murphy (talk) 00:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Ks0stm Oh yeah you did. The new rules came in place *exactly* because of my evidence at WP:ARBPIA3..in a similar situation. I had every right to undo that "new editor" (who strangely knew his way to the 3RR board at once..) who should not have been editing the article at all! Huldra (talk) 00:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll self trout for that one. I will say, in my defense, I assumed the template at the top of the talk page accurately summarized the sanctions, and that the only exception to the 1RR was for what I already quoted. My apologies, though. I've unblocked you with a full note in the unblock summary. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:48, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

fyi

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Amendment_request:_ARBPIA NE Ent 01:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

A pie for you!

Many thanks for the whale (well-deserved). Again, my most sincere apologies. I should have looked closer than just the template on the talk page. Hopefully the C&A request will allow me to finish cleaning up the mess I made. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 03:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Block log

It looks like ArbCom may not strike your unwarranted block from the logs. At least the two arbitrators who expressed opposition to that seem hard to convince otherwise. For what is worth, if in the future someone uses your block log against you, I think you will be entitled to take the issue to WP:ANI and show how you expressed concern to ArbCom that exactly that would happen, and if I get notified of a such report, I will back you. LjL (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

User:LjL Thanks, I really appreciate your support (and the support of several others) ...but just now I feel like taking a loooooong break from Wikipedia, mostly because of those arb.com opinions. I thought arb.com was there to help problems go away, instead they in effect tell you that "it´s not a problem!" Not helpful. Huldra (talk) 20:38, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I have yet to see someone, anyone on Wikipedia expressing a good opinion about ArbCom (although many want to take issues there). LjL (talk) 20:44, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

User:LjL Well, they didn´t have a good year, this year...but on the other hand: personally I would rather be water-boarded than serving on arb.com....Not an easy job. Perhaps with the new arb.commers in the New Year? All the 6 I voted for got in...so I´m hopeful ;P Huldra (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I forgot to vote :-\ LjL (talk) 20:57, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

User:LjL No right to complain, then! Huldra (talk) 22:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I saw it the first time. I have no good retort :P LjL (talk) 23:56, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

User:LjL Hey; I was just testing Twinkle! -had to remind myself if I could add an edit-line or not when using it(I couldn`t) ...sorry for pinging you...Huldra (talk) 00:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

No doubt you are aware of it but

I just noted we have all the data in English for all cities and towns in the various governorates according to the 2016 data here. I was just checking Hebron when I stumbled on it, and the Hebron Governorate places on again checking all have 2007 figures. I'll slowly get round to doing some a day so that eventually all are updated. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 20:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Nishidani, thanks, actually I did not know about it....I´m pretty bad at those post-48 sources. Though you might want to use the archive version (here, for Hebron-district), as in my experience; those web-pages tend to get dead pretty quickly. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 16:15, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I'm pretty sure that at least the later years in those tables are statistical projections from earlier data rather than actual estimates. Somewhere there is a description; can't find it just now. Zero^talk 20:37, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Well that saves me ruining the Christmas break revising all the town data, as I thought obligatory. C.P. Snow's shade will be happy: I'll probably have time to get through Strangers and Brothers, which I started yesterday:)Nishidani (talk) 22:06, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

GAB^Hello! is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

Spread the cheer by adding {{subst:Xmas6}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Wishing you a peaceful, prosperous 2016.

Best,

GAB^Hello! 01:12, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

User:GeneralizationsAreBad thanks, GAB, same wishes for you! Huldra (talk) 16:17, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

Spread the cheer by adding {{subst:Xmas2}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 17:50, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Huldra!

Happy New Year!

Huldra,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 01:09, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

@Rubbish computer: Thank you very much, ...and a happy New Year to you, too, Huldra (talk) 23:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Huldra!

Happy New Year!

Huldra,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:41, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

@Liz: Thank you very much, ...and a happy New Year to you, too, Huldra (talk) 23:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for supporting my RfA

	Hawkeye7 RfA Appreciation award
	Thank you for participating in and supporting my RfA. It was very much appreciated. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi

Sorry if I sounded too aggressive.. Your input is appreciated. --Makeandtoss (talk) 23:06, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

User:Makeandtoss: don´t worry about it. Btw, your "block-log is still clear. Mine isn´t...and that arb.com chose *not* to unmake that ..still make me absolutely furious. Ah well, as Tyrion put it: "if you want justice, you come to the wrong place". That is both for Game of Thrones ...and Wikipedia.... Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Hahaha, well, I am not going to try to disapprove that quote because its right. Oberyn challenged Tyrion's words and was eventually mind blown (pun intended)  ;) Makeandtoss (talk) 15:16, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle

Sorry, I didn't realize that was one of those 30/500 arbitration enforcement pages. Thank you for telling me. Qpalzmmzlapq | talk | contribs 23:16, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

User:Qpalzmmzlapq That´s ok, one IP and one new user (Stew Pidd Crow) are edit-warring there now; hope it will be protected soon, Huldra (talk) 23:19, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Telstra IPs

I stumbled over this discussion, and something about "Australian IP-hopping vandal on Telstra" rung a bell. See these discussions [15][16][17]. Do they look related? Eman235/talk 21:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Eman235 at first glance I would say no. "My" Telstra-vandal is interested in Israel/Palestine (with an extreme pro-Israeli viewpoint). I have never seen him stray outside the Israel/Palestinian area. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:09, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought as much. This other one mainly does silly things, like adding vast amounts of interwiki links or messing around with IPA templates. Eman235/talk 23:44, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

SPI: GamlielBeyderman

Due to the recent activity at the Bharti Kher and other articles, I have initiated an investigation request. I have posted it at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/GamlielBeyderman should you wish to comment. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 22:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Yamaguchi先生, ok, thanks. I´m not sure GamlielBeyderman is a sock, though, both Sean.hoyland and myself have "fans" who revert every edit, when they are around. I suspect the socks are one of those "fans", Huldra (talk) 22:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Mobile, Alabama

Hello Huldra. I would like to ask that you take a more careful look before reverting an edit. With this edit to Mobile, Alabama, you have actually restored vandalism. The vandalism was added by Interrexconsul, who is adding vandalism to articles while claiming to remove it. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Question about Hauran village

Hey Huldra, just started Sahwat al-Khudr, was wondering if it corresponds with "mz48 Sahut al-Qamh" on p. 220 from Hutteroth? If so, could you add the standard 1596 census/tax info? Regards, --Al Ameer (talk) 20:42, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son, well, I think it is, but the maps/info is a bit unclear. On p. 220: mz48 Sahut al-Qamh 7+ (310/224)...which is east (and south) of, say, p.218: p95 Qanawat, Qanawat 7+ (301/240). Which it also is on one map I have (ni-37-13-as_suwayda-syria-jordan.jpg): Qanawat is west (and north) of Sahwat al-Khudr. (I don´t have any map with the Jordanian grid-numbers, which the location is given in).

However, on the map in Hutteroth.jpg, p95 is east of mz48....Perhaps I should just assume that Hutteroth.jpg is not very accurate? I´ll ping User:Zero0000, Huldra (talk) 21:54, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok, will wait to hear what the Z-man thinks. --Al Ameer (talk) 23:01, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Z-man here ;). @Al Ameer son: The map "Soueida200K.jpg" shows Sahauet el Kodor (not sure of the 4th letter, could be o or e) at the lat/long given at Sahwat al-Khudr and the grid 310/224 given for Sahut al-Qamh on Hutteroth p220. So I'd say you have a match. Zero^talk 02:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. Now that we've got a match, could either of you add the 1596 info? (I need to get a copy of this book). I'm planning on starting articles on nearby Urman and Miyamas this week as well, will update you here. Cheers --Al Ameer (talk) 19:38, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Done, and found the Porter -quote. Note that Porter wrote a lot about Syria, so a ref without a date really isn´t that helpful.... See User:Huldra/Syria, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Yea I added it while it was a draft some time ago without the full citation, and when I moved the article to mainspace a couple days ago, I couldn't find the source (of course). Anyway, thanks for finding the ref. --Al Ameer (talk) 01:20, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok, Urman has been moved to mainspace. I believe it corresponds to "mz24 Urman 7+ (315/213)" on page 212. Could you add the info? --Al Ameer (talk) 17:59, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son: Yes, you are right, and the info is added, Huldra (talk) 22:06, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for updating Lubayn. Could you do the same for Dhibin? --Al Ameer (talk) 01:41, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

And Harran, as-Suwayda ;) It corresponds with "mz8 Harran 7+ (279/255)" --Al Ameer (talk) 20:50, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son, yepp, and done. Should some of these villages be nominated for DYKS? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Definitely going to nominate Urman and Harran (separate noms), don't know about the others yet. Probably Sahwat al-Khudr too. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:21, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son: I don´t know how many days we have left for nominating Harran, as-Suwayda? Huldra (talk) 23:40, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

We're still good, I'll nominate it today. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:11, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Additions to your list

Three more IPs for your list:

121.219.241.132

110.148.120.64

121.219.16.227

Regards! --T*U (talk) 09:56, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

User:TU-nor: Thanks! Will add...I´m afraid they will not be the last... Huldra (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Sahwat al-Khudr has been nominated for Did You Know

Hello, Huldra. Sahwat al-Khudr, an article you either created or to which you significantly contributed,has been nominated to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook and the discussion here. You are welcome to participate! Thank you. APersonBot (talk!) 01:13, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Urman, Syria has been nominated for Did You Know

Hello, Huldra. Urman, Syria, an article you either created or to which you significantly contributed,has been nominated to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook and the discussion here. You are welcome to participate! Thank you. APersonBot (talk!) 00:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
	Whew. I saw the post in ANI that led to the edit comments people were leaving for you! Here's some Wikiove to cancel it out. HappyValleyEditor (talk) 04:32, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

User:HappyValleyEditor: well, this much appreciated! I´m afraid that editing in "my" area (=Israel-Palestine), then this are the sort of attacks we learn to expect... Anyway, thanks, again! Huldra (talk) 04:36, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Editor of the Week : nominations needed!

The Editor of the Week initiative has been recognizing editors since 2013 for their hard work and dedication. Editing Wikipedia can be disheartening and tedious at times; the weekly Editor of the Week award lets its recipients know that their positive behaviour and collaborative spirit is appreciated. The response from the honorees has been enthusiastic and thankful.

The list of nominees is running short, and so new nominations are needed for consideration. Have you come across someone in your editing circle who deserves a pat on the back for improving article prose regularly, making it easier to understand? Or perhaps someone has stepped in to mediate a contentious dispute, and did an excellent job. Do you know someone who hasn't received many accolades and is deserving of greater renown? Is there an editor who does lots of little tasks well, such as cleaning up citations?

Please help us thank editors who display sustained patterns of excellence, working tirelessly in the background out of the spotlight, by submitting your nomination for Editor of the Week today!

Sent on behalf of Buster Seven Talk for the Editor of the Week initiative by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:18, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Sahwat al-Khudr

On 23 April 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Sahwat al-Khudr, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Sahwat al-Khudr is named after an ancient Byzantine church in the village dedicated to Saint George, who is known to Muslims as "al-Khudr"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Sahwat al-Khudr. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Sahwat al-Khudr), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

About a revision of yours from 2011 (yea..)

In the article about Givat Oz you made this edit in which you stated that Givat Oz was built the ruins of Khirbat Zalafa and cited Benny Morris. The problem is, Khirbet Zalafa is 24km away from Givat Oz (checked in Google Earth). Could you please double check that?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:42, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
Also do you think that "{{reflist|25em}}" is better (as you did here)? Because me and my ADHD disagree.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:55, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi User:Bolter21; ah yeah, that was the time I inserted all the villages found in User:Huldra/Morris-list. The problem is: Morris only wrote what was the "closest" -48-village; he never actually looked at who owned that part of land. If you want to have that; you have to go to the Walid Khalidi- 1992-book. And Khalidi writes (on p. 568) that there are no Israeli settlements on Khirbat Zalafa-land. (One day, when I´m up to it; I will sit down and add all the settlements which are on -48-villages land, all according to Khalidi. One day...) I discussed the problem with -IRISZOOM above..see at "Listing of the depopulated Palestinian villages",

About "{{reflist|25em}}" ...I have no strong feelings about it, if you want to change it back, please do. (But I am adding a few more citations, so it might become a long list...) Huldra (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

So I guess I can remove the sentence from the Givat Oz article? And personaly, without any connection to my contribution to Wikipedia, I chose to avoid as much "New Historians" material as I can. I am more of a Yoav Gelber person.

And for now I will change the reflist because it really hurts my eyes and I don't think there's a problem in have a long list, Maybe splitting into two parallel lists if it becomes too long.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:10, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

I don´t think it should be removed from the Givat Oz article, (Morris is a RS, after all), but we should qualify the statement by adding Khalidi; i.e.. specifying that no Israeli settlements are on Khirbat Zalafa-land. What really should be updated, though, is the Khirbat Zalafa-article: move the Morris quote from "current localities" in the info-box, into the body of the article.

And if the present ref-list hurts your eye: don´t hesitate in changing it! Seriously...Huldra (talk) 22:18, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

@Bolter21: Folks, some mix-up here. Givat Oz was (and still is) about 1km from Zalafa. Nothing to do with Khirbat Zalafa. Zero^talk 06:07, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, Givat Oz is built on the land previously belonged to the existing Zalafa. I think Benny Morris made a mistake.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:11, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree, and I´ve updated User:Huldra/Morris2-list. Huldra (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Urman, Syria

On 27 April 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Urman, Syria, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the first shots of the Great Syrian Revolt occurred at the village of Urman? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Urman, Syria. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Urman, Syria), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Harran, as-Suwayda

On 27 April 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Harran, as-Suwayda, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that an inscription in Harran dated from 568 CE is among the earliest known appearances of Arabic in Syria? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Harran, as-Suwayda. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Harran, as-Suwayda), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Jewish press archive

I"d like to take this oppertunity to present you something I found. Maybe you are usuing it for decades and maybe you never heard about it. There's a website called "Historical Jewish Press" and it has an archive for old newspapers, including "The Palestine Post" which is in English and also "The Occident" which dates back 1840's. I assume that becuase you are editing alot about pre-1949 Palestine, it might be handy. Here's a link to the search tool in English.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:01, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Thanks User:Bolter21, I am aware of it. My 2 cents: It should only be used in articles to "back up"; that is, when these sources are actually used by scholars of the period. Huldra (talk) 20:36, 2 May 2016 (UTC) 

This is another opertunity to ask you a question. When searching for data about the Ma'ale Iron villages I came across this and one of the things there I found was very usefull. One from 22 May 1949, two days after the capturing of Musmus and it marks the end of the operation to enforce the armistice agreement with Jordan, It has a detailed description of Musmus including some names of nearby locations as well is millitary actions in the village during the operation. Do you think it shouldn't be included?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

The problem is: this is from one side in a war. There are so many scholarly sources for the 1948-war; I would suggest starting with those. Some might mention Musmus etc., Huldra (talk) 21:40, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Appart from a war, there's just a description of Musmus. There are also some details from after the war about these villages. Still a no?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:46, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Could you link it here? Huldra (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

At this moment I can't but tommorow I could send and translate the entire thing. Unfortunately this spesific one is in Hebrew. Should I make myself a page where I translate important and reliable Hebrew sources? I thought about doing so with some information from the book "Independence versus Nakba" about the 1948 war. There is alot of data missed in the related articles. Could be subjected to Israeli-Palestinian collaboration project. What do you think?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I don´t read/write Hebrew, so if it is in that language, you would have to translate it. Who is the "Independence versus Nakba" book by? Huldra (talk) 23:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Yoav Gelber. --Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:46, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Gelber certainly is WP:RS. Apparently his 2004 book "Independence versus Nakba" is forthcoming in English; perhaps we should wait for the official English version? Huldra (talk) 23:54, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, didn't know that. Until then, there are some important things not included in the war articles. One thing I thought about expanding was the Arab belligerents, which misses a lot of involved groups. Also I might have other things to translate. --Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Here is the source:

White flags on clay huts
As we left the Lajun polce [station] at late morning hours and crossed Wadi Ara, the passage was desolate. Few white flags were planted on top of the clay huts of Khirbet-Bayada and on top of the Musmus village, which is set at the foot of a hill, adorned with carob and pistacia trees. Fellahs are working at the fields as usual.

This is the main sentence about the village. Here is the original paper if you want it..: [18].

• Ok, what is the date of that report? We could possibly use the above report, at least for Baiada, as we have little information about the history of the place (using "adobe huts" instead of "clay huts".) From what I can find: the villages are not mentioned in any of the Gelber or Morris-books I have. They are mentioned in Ilan Pappe "The ethnic cleansing of Palestine", however. Basically, Israel tried to conquer them several times late 1948, but failed each time. To say that they "captured" Musmus in April, 1949, sounds like re-writing history: they were given them under the 1949 Armistice Agreements.
• In general: lots of old Jewish and/or Zionist sources are online, you can easily find lots and lots there about "the Arab belligerents." The problem is that the relevant, and complementing Arab sources are NOT online. (They reported on the "the Jewish belligerents.") Therefor, if you go and search those online archives, adding stuff; then you will end up with a very one-sided story. Huldra (talk) 20:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The date is 22 May 1949. According to an Israeli archive of all the battles in the 1947-9 war, Musmus was captured in 20 May. It clasfies it as a conquest with no battle. It also says Bayada was captured in 20 May and there's also a raid on Musheirifa on April 1948. The reason why the battles archive listed the capturing of the villages was becuase it was part of a millitary operation. According to the paper I sent, the operation was called "Operation Shortcut" (I can only assume it is based on the fact the 65 Highway was the reason for the transition of the land, but just only an asumption). I guess "IDF soldiers entered the village on 20 May" is clearer than "The village was captured on 20 May". I read the two reports from 22 May and non talked about "capturing" the village but langauge such as "the territory we accuired" while mentioning that Haifa was conquered. What do you think?

I also found a part in which the paper that quotes an official statement by the Israeli government about the annexation from 20 May 1949 (the day the soldiers entered the village). The statement is short and report that the withdrawal of the Jordanians and that "there are no incidents". I can translate it as well if there's a need.

And what I meant about hte belligerents was the involvment of two or three more groups in the war that are not listed. Groups such as the al-Najjada. I didn't see the Muslim Brotherhood in the articles when I first looked it up but now I found that it is mentioned in the 1947 civil war in Palestine. The main thing that concerns me is the misinclusion of the Najjada which according to Gelber was involved in the first months. I am a person of infoboxes and I think it should be included in the article as well as in the infobox. That's something that needs more research, but I think I"ll put it aside for now. I have other things to edit.

I am planning to create or expand existing articles in the Basma local council and of course it's about time to expand the Ma'ale Iron article. I feel really bad that most of my sources for those villages are in hebrew but Ma'ale Iron is relatively new and it is barely even mentioned in English source which doesn't provide much usefull data. Sources such as the progress of the establishment of the council and a period in which the council ceased to exist for a shot while as well as an article by the State Comptroller of Israel on the council and as an article by the Ministry of Environmental Protection (Israel) about the floods and the restoration of infestructre of Ma'ale Iron's villages in 2006. All of this information is in Hebrew and I am starting to fear this is more than a problem. What do you think on that as well? (If I am talking too much, feel free to say. I am not the kind of person to ask too many questions and feel confortable about it..)--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The thing is; I try to concentrate on the pre-1948-sources. I also have some sources on the 1948 war (but there are other editors here, who are much better than me on that subject.) On post-1948: I have hardly done a thing. And I don´t plan to do anything much, either....not as long as there is sooooo much pre-1948 -history not added. I´m particularly focused on adding the 1596-data (see User:Huldra/HA), Guerin (see User:Huldra/Guerin) and SWP-data. That other editors do work on post-1948 is fine, of course! ...but don´t expect much help from me, sorry. (And yes: the fact that many sources on post-48 history are either in Hebrew or Arabic (I speak neither) is of course also one reason I don´t see myself doing much work in that area...) Huldra (talk) 22:39, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Alright, and unfortunately the source I translated, as well is the majority of this archive are under strict copyrights policy so it doesn't matter...--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:31, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

About Hevisaurus. No, seriously, this really is about that article.

Hey Huldra,
I should probably be pleased that Vice has plagiarized Hevisaurus here. Could you possibly talk to me about this, and other related matters?
Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 13:20, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Pete, sorry, this is the first I have ever heard of Hevisaurus. Please email me, if there is more info? Huldra (talk) 22:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Violent threats

Note that the edit summary, etc. from the other user is still available to administrators. It can be 'oversighted' so it isn't even available to admins, but I'm not able to do so. I'm sure you are aware of Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm; I am not in a position to judge the seriousness of the issue here. If there's anything I can do for you on this particular issue, please ping me. You are more than welcome to remove this comment from your talk page, or ask me to rev-del it from your talk page, if you think that appropriate. --Yamla (talk) 13:33, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I´ve been living with this since 2010, so I´m *quite* familiar with this (just look at the deleted edits from my talk-page). And yeah; I´m familiar with Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm...and the WMF-staff working on this.

Though, I must admit; being "reported" for making "violent threats" against others; well, that is a new one! I guess they hoped for finding a fool; (it has worked before!) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 13:56, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

Just a quick thanks for helping to deal with that Telstra IP (namely 137.147.134.67 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 09:34, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

• User:Samtar: Oh, we are "old friends" see User:Huldra/Telstra-socks...and this, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 09:36, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

With friends like these, who need enemies! Either way, thanks again for all the hard work and abuse you put up with, it is appreciated -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 09:40, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Jisr Jindas and Yibna Bridge has been nominated for Did You Know

Hello, Huldra. Jisr Jindas and Yibna Bridge, an article you either created or to which you significantly contributed,has been nominated to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook and the discussion here. You are welcome to participate! Thank you. APersonBot (talk!) 12:01, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Question

How do you make those pages like User:Huldra/Guerin or User:Huldra/Sources? Thanks--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:57, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21, well, you already have User:Bolter21/Sources? (Though it is just a redir at the moment) Do you want to start any other sub-pages? Huldra (talk) 20:07, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh I now get it, so everytime you move your sandbox it duplicate it and then you can make many others?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 09:23, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21, you don´t have to make it that difficult: you can make any sub-page you like directly; just start User:Bolter21/example1, User:Bolter21/example2, or User:Bolter21/Guerin, or any other name you like, ok? Huldra (talk) 10:14, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks!--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:53, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Ping from meta

Hi, Did you ping me from meta? I got something then it disappeared, now I can't find anything. Zero^talk 01:19, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

User:Zero0000, hm, only if you get the pings about a year late? ...in July, last year, "our old friend" discovered meta, and had some fun at my- and others- user-pages. I had to ask admins there for help, see here, Huldra (talk) 20:29, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Yibna Bridge

On 20 May 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Yibna Bridge, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Mamluk Sultan Baibars built two bridges near the towns of Jindas and Yibna in the outskirts of Ramla, which have survived more than seven centuries? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Yibna Bridge), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:01, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Two questions re: Muslim Brotherhood

quack, quack!

1) How do you figure an article about the Muslim Brotherhood is protected by WP:ARBPIA3#500/30)? It is not connected to the Arab-Israeli conflict. 2) Assuming it is protected, and assuming that I don't have the required 500/30, don't you agree that the content that I deleted is biased, opinionated, and not properly cited, so that it should be deleted? WebofDeceit (talk) 01:41, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Incomplete DYK nomination

Hello! Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/Musheirifa Musmus Salim, Ma'ale Iron Zalafa, Ma'ale Iron at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; see step 3 of the nomination procedure. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with {{db-g7}}, or ask a DYK admin. Thank you. DYKHousekeepingBot (talk) 11:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

FYI

Hey Huldra, just stumbled upon Adam Zertal's third volume: The Manasseh Hill Country Survey: Volume 3: From Nahal ‘Iron to Nahal Shechem (2016). There's a limited preview of it on google books, see link. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

User:Al Ameer son Thanks!! Huldra (talk) 21:52, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

A source I found

Hello Huldra. I found this. Now this is a thesis, made by Seth Frantzman, submitted for a degree of a Doctor of Philosophy, submitted to the Senate of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The work was under the supervision of Ruth Kark. Seth Frantzman also wrote for Al Jazeera and The Jerusalem Post. The thesis it self is a large list of details about Palestinian villages in the 19th century-1948. It can be used somehow (Although I"ve yet to find something too big). Give it a look and tell me what you think? As it seems, according to WP:SCHOLARSHIP, it is ok.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: Thanks, I have a copy, he is (or used to be) here on WP (see deleted article Seth J. Frantzman, or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seth J. Frantzman), he uploaded this, among other things. He is mostly interested in "newly" established Arab places, Huldra (talk) 23:53, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Musheirifa Musmus Salim, Ma'ale Iron Zalafa, Ma'ale Iron

Hello! Your submission of Musheirifa Musmus Salim, Ma'ale Iron Zalafa, Ma'ale Iron at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 22:29, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Musmus

On 22 June 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Musmus, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Salem (pictured), Musmus, Zalafa, and Musheirifa are four of the Arab villages making up the Israel local council of Ma'ale Iron? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Musmus), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Salem, Ma'ale Iron

On 22 June 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Salem, Ma'ale Iron, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Salem (pictured), Musmus, Zalafa, and Musheirifa are four of the Arab villages making up the Israel local council of Ma'ale Iron? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Salem, Ma'ale Iron), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Zalafa

On 22 June 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Zalafa, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Salem (pictured), Musmus, Zalafa, and Musheirifa are four of the Arab villages making up the Israel local council of Ma'ale Iron? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Zalafa), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

You're most welcome

Thank you for the note. And thank you for your efforts on an article whose edit history is now a joke; you're doing God's work while the admins are asleep at the wheel. RunnyAmiga (talk) 23:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

User:RunnyAmiga: Thanks, and thanks for your work; PhilKnight finally blocked him. Normally the admins react quite quickly to the Telstra-vandal; he tends to make loads of death and rape threats (all those oversigted edits at User:Huldra/Telstra-socks), which makes him most unwelcome here, Cheers, and thanks again, Huldra (talk) 23:11, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Given how easy it is to spot a contributor this bad, is there any concern with a block for just 48 hours? That behavior is just disgraceful, and it obviously isn't someone who suddenly appeared without ever having been here before. Does PhilKnight really believe this person might come back in two days and be a productive editor? RunnyAmiga (talk) 23:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

User:RunnyAmiga: I´m fine with him "only" given 48 hours; he will have changed his IP long before 48 hours is gone (he had another IP earlier today). The only way to stop him, is to range-block the whole Telstra/Optus-range (i.e., most of Australian IPs); that has actually been discussed, see here. That, or the police. I´m collecting archive.is-evidence for that.... Huldra (talk) 23:20, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Police? Wow, my initial warning was even more off the mark than I thought. And I figured it was more of a symbolic block than anything, but that's another reason it sat so wrong with me. If, symbolically, admins skipped the warnings and the short blocks and went straight to three years or whatever, it would be a much more bold rejection of this behavior than 48 damn hours. But I don't want to horn in any more than I already have, so if you're not bothered by this, I can certainly move on. RunnyAmiga (talk) 23:31, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

User:RunnyAmiga: virtually every one of those IPs marked with @@ on User:Huldra/Telstra-socks have made a death or rape threat, so yeah; police. And in the beginning I welcomed him...just to have the threats less than an hour later.....And if you blocked an IP for, say, 3 years, it would not affect him the least...it would only affect those other users who would happen to get assigned that IP after him. So, 48 hours is fine with me, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:40, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Ctrl+F → "@@" gave me 24; not counting your explanatory text at the top, that's 23 different IPs have issued threats. And let's call it like it is: I need to not flail around for a better approach than what's already been going on because there's really no solution to the rape and death threats unless you figure out how to travel back in time to just before you identified yourself on here as female. RunnyAmiga (talk) 23:56, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

User:RunnyAmiga: Well, I refuse to be intimidated. And there is no escape for the males....they get threats about having their wives raped, instead (which is hardly any more fun). I´ve been living with this since 2010, from various users. When you edit in the I/P area: you better get used to the fact that there are some pretty sick persons out there..... Cheers, Huldra (talk) 00:04, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Molotov Cocktail

Hi Hulora. You and an IP seem to be in a content dispute over the use of Molotov cocktails on the Palestine/Israel conflict, which you have removed several times. Are you aware that the gallery shows a picture of an IDF soldier having discovered a molotove cocktail factory/stash. It seems odd to include an image, but disputing the inclusion of the text which justifies the image. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 08:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

That IP is the User:Huldra/Telstra-socks, who reverts me on sight, se his e.g. his reverts on Capture of Jisr ed Damieh. Besides he makes routinely death and rape threats: we are trying to make him feel extremely unwelcome on Wikipedia. Please see the paragraph above this, thanks, Huldra (talk) 08:58, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

thanks..IdreamofJeanie (talk) 09:00, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Jayce Salloum listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Jayce Salloum. Since you had some involvement with the Jayce Salloum redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Slashme (talk) 22:25, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Howdy neighbor

This user is a participant of WikiProject Bibliographies

Just wanted to say hi, and thanks for the DYK review. Your user page more than caught my eye. I love that picture! I'm something of a book worm myself, and have been working on and creating bibliographies for some time. Would you be interested in joining WikiProject Bibliographies? Currently I've been working on the Bibliography of George Washington. It's sort of a comprehensive bibliography, as the story of Washington's biographers and all the works devoted to him is a subject unto itself, imo. Likewise with Thomas Jefferson. See you around! -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Silat al-Harithiya

Hello! Your submission of Silat al-Harithiya at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 10:05, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Intrigued

Hello there! I was intrigued by this trail of destruction. Who on earth would leave a message, since deleted, on precisely those four pages? Peter Damian (talk) 19:21, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Peter Damian: Oh, absolutely nothing to be intrigued about; just you average dumb 13-to-the-dozen vandal. Have been around a bit; about you they said something about being “the most banned/blocked editor” on WP, or something like that; about Risker they said something about females…..and for Jimbo they speculated in the death of his oldest daughter (And they named her). (Can´t remember what they said about Sceptre).

Btw, I´m “watching” the talk-pages of a few of the vandal-fighters (including the blocker here; Gogo Dodo), (as a small “payback”, as they have “cleaned up” on this page, and on pages I have edited countless of times): they take an absolute incredible amount of senseless vandalism like this. There are lots of silly people out there (not very old in years, I suspect); I guess you just don´t see them that often in "your field", cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:10, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes I think I know now. Hope you are well. Peter Damian (talk) 17:48, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Atlas of Palestine

Hi, I notice that the entire Atlas of Palestine is now online, see here. The maps are harder to read than the originals at NLI, but the photo overlay can be useful sometimes. Zero^talk 09:37, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Zero0000: Thanks! I´m copying them...as they they forever to open. And I agree, the maps are not too good, but tons of info, though, Huldra (talk) 20:08, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Silat al-Harithiya

On 20 July 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Silat al-Harithiya, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, the co-founder of Al-Qaeda, came from the Palestinian village of Silat al-Harithiya? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Silat al-Harithiya. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Silat al-Harithiya), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:46, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Sourcing with books

Since you are editing many articles with books, I suggest taking a look at the sourcing format in 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine, where the footnotes (or references) link to the name of the book in the Bibliography and make it easier for the readers. I might try and implement it in articles I edit.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:05, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: well, most of the sources I add are old, that is, they are fully on the net. I therefore typically link to each page. In the above article, Yoav Gelber (2006), p. 120, Yoav Gelber (2006), pp. 122–123, Yoav Gelber (2006), p. 127 ..etc, all link to the same reference (On another note: I see that it uses Lapierre & Collins a lot: bad, bad idea: they took everything people told them to be "the truth".) And even if the sources are not old, they often have quite a lot in "preview", on books.google.com, which can be linked to. (Typically; Morris, 2004, has a lot in preview). Of course, you could combine the two; the first part linking to the biblio, and the page-side linking directly to the page. Huldra (talk) 20:09, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK

Just wanted to let ya know I left some comments for your artciel Template:Did you know nominations/Qabatiya. editorEهեইдအ😎 16:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Al-Mughayyir

From the Guerin map at NLI, it seems that this place is "El Merhair" (Sam. II, p.17). Zero^talk 01:17, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Zero0000, Thanks! Huldra (talk) 20:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Archeology for Mishmar HaEmek

Ahoy. I understand absolutely nothing in Archeology, but I"ve seen that you do and you usually add information about excevations in villages. I tried to copycat that in Mishmar HaEmek but I fear I am doing it all wrong. Would you mind take a look?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: according to Khalidi, 1992, Mishmar HaEmek is not on a -48-village land, but it is about 1 km north south of Abu Shusha, Haifa. And about 10 Palestinian villages were ethnically cleansed during the Battle of Mishmar HaEmek, (including Abu Shusha). Also, nothing is indicated there (≈1 km n. of Abu Shusha) on the SWP 8 map. About archaeology, this can also be used. For archaeological periods, I usually use this page as a "short-cut", Huldra (talk) 23:58, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: hmm that was south of Abu Shusha, ..and the Mandate era shows el-Ghaba et-Tahta there, and el-Ghaba et-Fuqa just S-E. In the 1922 census (p. 33) had 71+41 Muslim inhabitants + 1 Christian. (There was no Mishmar HaEmek, then)

Also, it looks as if Abu Shusha, Haifa now qualifies as DYK... there is still work to do about the 1948-situation, though. Would you care to think about a hook? Huldra (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

What do you mean by "not on a -48-village land"?. And I don't know who added the number of Palestinian villages depopulated, I thought about removing it because I wanted the section to focus on the kibbutz it self and not the battle but then decided to leave it. And the obvious hook would be about Jewish community, or the archeological foundings but I can try and find if there is something interesting about the village from Hebrew/Israeli scholarship, due to the proximity to one of the most famous kibbutz in Israel which has too much doccumented history. Also, at age 17 you were 100% Israeli supporter? It's hard to imagine that from someone citing Khaledi, not to mention I am 17 and not a 100% supporter of Israel..--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I actually found alot of details in Zochrot which you probably know. There's the English page which containes no data (apart from dates and population) but there's also the Hebrew version which contains several paragrahps.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

It lists "Walid Khalidi, All that Remains, 1990, 568-569" as a source. You have it?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: The "48-village" refers to those villages which were depopulated in 1948, basically the villages here: Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus

And that is Walid Khalidi, All that Remains, 1992, and yes, I have it. (One of the first books I bought for Wikipedia!) About more personal stuff: I would preferably not discuss this in public, as I have certain "fans", but would be more than willing to discuss it over email, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 00:03, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Well if you have it (and I see you have used it in the article), you may have excluded some information. The Zochrot article has alot of information there and it says it cites Khaledi, although it seems like it also cites "History of Haganah book" which might be also in Khaledi. Either way, there is another paragraph of information from other books but they don't provide much information except the fact the village location is today in Park Menashe. I found an 8 page article in Hebrew but although there are mentiones to Abu Shusha, I don't think it will provide information beyond the battles that doesn't exist in Khaledi and Moris' books.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21 as I said above: "there is still work to do about the 1948-situation". There is a lot about what happened in 1948 in Khalidi, 1992,.....but I (almost never) use much of the 1948-stuff from Khalidi, 1992. That is because Khalidi, 1992, mostly based his 1948-stuff on Morris, 1987. I prefer to use Morris, 2004: lots of material which was not available to Morris in 1987 had become declassified by 2004, therefor the 2004-book is *much* better than the 1987-book. Huldra (talk) 20:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: Actually, the whole of what Khalidi, 1992 writes, is linked at the bottom of the page, here, Huldra (talk) 21:42, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Qabatiya

On 27 July 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Qabatiya, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that in 1596, half of the revenues from the Palestinian town of Qabatiya went to the Tarabay Bey of Lajjun? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Qabatiya. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Qabatiya), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Abu Shusha, Haifa

On 3 August 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Abu Shusha, Haifa, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the depopulated Palestinian village of Abu Shusha in Haifa has been suggested as the location of the Roman town of Gaba Hippeon, founded in 61 BCE? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Abu Shusha, Haifa. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Abu Shusha, Haifa), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 13:06, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

A map of Palestine

Hello, I am currently working on a map of Palestine with village boundaries (for fun). Do you know of any way it can serve Wikipedia articles? Here's a preview (Safed subdistrict, also factually wrong in some places). The reason why I am asking is becuase this map takes a long time to make and I don't know if I should finish it or not.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:59, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21 That could absolutely be useful! It should be linked in Safad Subdistrict, Mandatory Palestine, and then we should possibly link (more directly) to those Subdistrict-articles in each of the -48-villages. Say, in Abil al-Qamh we could (under "British Mandate era") say something about "until 1923 when it was incorporated into the British Mandate in Palestine, part of the Safad Subdistrict." Huldra (talk) 00:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Hmm.. I thought about a more general usage of the entire map (which currently only has Safed, Acre and Nazarath distcircts), but fracturing the map into districts is definently east to make. There is a possibility to make a single map, where you can click on the villages via pushpins or clickable polygons, but that is too much work, considering the fact there were sone 1200 villages as far as I remember, but maybe I can give the maps their coordinates and the coordinates listed in the infobox would be also placed in the same place in the district map, I hope you get what I am saying. Until then, I"ll finish the map and fracture it. I thought about making a map of ethnicities/religious or population density but I think the latter requires listing of all villages' densities and thinking how the heck I choose the shades (like here)--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:40, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Mishmar Emek region map

@Bolter21: Hi, I added a map to Mishmar HaEmek and related places. Please let me know if you see any problems with it. Zero^talk 03:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Not quite sure why is this on Huldra's talkpage (unless you are talking to both of us). I don't see any problems with it though my Zionist ass is not that fond with Nakba maps on Jewish villages.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 09:36, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

It is written to both of you as people interested in maps. Huldra gets an automatic ping so I just put one for you. I think historical maps are a basic need for the history of locations. Zero^talk 11:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I know, I just expressed my general opinion since I am a zionist ass.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:49, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Well, nobody is perfect. The other side of the coin is the identification (often strained) of pre-1948 sites with ancient Jewish sites that occurs in most articles on pre-1948 villages. My attitude is "let it all hang out" while maintaining source standard as high as possible. Zero^talk 02:31, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

@Zero0000: No, I don´t. But this really brings up "present location" on Al-Ghubayya al-Tahta, (and on Al-Ghubayya al-Fawqa), I wonder if Khalidi had mixed the two Al-Ghubayyas up? Huldra (talk) 21:18, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

For the Mandate's map

Where can I find all of the village details from the census of 1945? Couldn't find the whole thing in a single piece. By the way here's the blank version: link--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:24, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21 It is now available at NLI:

• Department of Statistics (1945). Village Statistics, April, 1945. Government of Palestine.

Note that NLI-version does not have stable page-links (that is, if you, say want to link to p. 13, you cannot do that. Instead you can link to a server which provides links to each page, see e.g. p. 13.)

These days I normally link both to the NLI original, and the Hadawi-version. This because the Hadawi version is much easier to read. See the above DYK, Abu Shusha, Haifa, as an example, Huldra (talk) 12:44, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I figured out, you can just zoom with your browser (if you are using Chrome, so simply click Ctrl and scroll down or up with your mouse wheel). By the way, do you have any idea what's the deal with the Be'rsheva district? It seems it has no village boundaries and not only for the tribal units, but also for Beersheba and the Jewish settlements.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:14, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: Well, I use Safari, I just click once to expand it (if I want to expand it more, I use "cmd +", and scroll it up/down by using two fingers on the screen).

As for Be'rsheva district (p. 33); that was basically beduin country. You can read about what Sami Hadawi wrote about it; Hadawi, pp. 35, 36; Huldra (talk) 20:26, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Another question you might have an answer to. In the religious demographics in the 1945 census, apart from Druze and Samaritans, what can "others" refer to?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I assume also that it could refer to Bahá'í. (Though virtually all the places I recall seeing with a large "other" category, have been Druze places,) Huldra (talk) 20:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

@Bolter21: Perhaps the meaning in 1945 was the same as in 1931. The 1931 census report says that "others" means "Druzes, Bahais, Samaritans and Agnostics". The last group numbered about 400, mostly in Jaffa. I wonder who they were. Zero^talk 05:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Hey. I was bored today, so I created an article for Beit Qad. In an Hebrew source, it said Beit Qad is mentioned in an Ottoman census from the 16th century, which reminded me about the details you"ve added about Salem, Ma'ale Iron so maybe you can expand it.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:31, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Bayt Qad, p160. Zero^talk 01:50, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

-User:Bolter21: done. I have no idea as to which source that "an Ottoman census from the 16th century as a hamlet with 7 tax payers" refers to. Does it say? Huldra (talk) 20:53, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

It pretty much says exactly what I wrote there. No mention to which census or what year.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:09, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: Ok, then I assume that source is pretty inaccurate. For one thing; all the Ottoman daftars I have seen referred to from that period uses Hana/mujjared (Household/ bachelors) for those taxed, using "tax payers" must be a simplification. On another note: should we go for DYK? Huldra (talk) 21:16, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh maybe it is my poor translation. The article say "חייבי מס" which according the google translate means "Tax receivables", instead of "tax payers". Maybe this makes more sense?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:24, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: eh, no. "Tax receivables" to me indicate those who *get* the revenues...not those who are taxed. Huldra (talk) 21:26, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

The sentence from the source literally translates to "Beit Qad was mentioned in a tax list from the end of the 16th century as a hamlet with 7 [word for: people who are obligated to pay tax]."--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:35, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: Ok, I suspect it is copied from one of books of Bernard Lewis, or something like that. Not many people have actually looked at and published the results from those daftars....Huldra (talk) 21:41, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: In one of Lewis's articles, he says that in Palestine only heads of households were taxed, even though the law allowed all adult males to be taxed. So it sounds like this is essentially equivalent to the unit "households" that we have been using for data from Hütteroth. I didn't manage to locate the source for "7" compared to the "20" given by Hütteroth. Zero^talk 23:12, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Rachel's tomb

Hi, There's a book on buildings or architecture that has a plan of Rachel's tomb with Montefiore's antechamber labeled "mosque". I thought it was Petersen's "Gazetteer of Buildings in Muslim Palestine" but now I can't find it there. I'm pretty sure that the book is by someone senior. Do you know where it is? Zero^talk 00:22, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Never mind, it is Pringle, Churches, vol 2. Zero^talk 01:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Yepp. pp. 176-178, Huldra (talk) 20:34, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Autopatrolled

Hi Huldra, I just wanted to let you know that I have added the "autopatrolled" permission to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature will have no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers. For more information on the patroller right, see Wikipedia:Autopatrolled. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 19:06, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

User:BU Rob13: Thanks! Much appreciated, Huldra (talk) 20:26, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

These articles Jaburara, Karajarri etc are nice to create. Potentially there are 600 of them to bring up from stubs. It's shocking and yet the mass of stuff on them is incredibly rich. I was thinking a few months ago along the lines, 'I should try and do for the aborigines of downunder what Huldra did and does for Palestinian villages. I held off though. It would mean a decade of work (1 a weekx52x10), which is a bit optimistic in terms of my desired lifeline! Exactly the same situations, with the slight, immense difference that there you can edit in peace, and not get swarmed every other edit. Thanks for taking a sisterly glance over it, dear inspirer(ess)!Nishidani (talk) 21:56, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Nishidani well, I´m glad you didn´t mind me wikistalking you! ...and I am delighted to have inspired you.....but I hope you stay in the Palestinian sector......

As you might have noticed, I have taken the last 2-3 months "off" Palestine, trying to clean up the Lebanese villages (which were mostly in a terrible state...): which has been good: I don´t know if you have noticed; but it seems to me that each summer some extremely pro-Israeli editors turn up? I know the settlers council had courses for potential Wikipedia -editors before; I wonder if they still give them?

Perhaps a compromise? You could edit the Indigenous Australian people from, say, the summer to the late autumn (They don´t last that long....do they...), then return to the Palestinian subjects? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:49, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge

Hi, you and Al Ameer Son would really be welcome to add the articles you do to this. Hopefully we'll attract more editors to working on the countries which badly need the attention too.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:48, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Dr. Blofeld, thanks for the invite, but ...well, not to rain on your parade, but I am a bit sceptical of these recruitment drives (at least for "my area", the ME.). I have just spend the last 2-3 months cleaning up on the Lebanese villages/templates: it was a complete mess: 8-9 villages had two articles for the same village! And the problem is that English Wikipedia is seen as "the mother of all wikis"; so lots of "local" wikipedias just copy from en.wp. ...which means that I have had to clean up on say, nn.wp, fr.wp, pl.wp etc....

• What frightens me, is the prospect of more editors making more shitty articles here on en.wp, which will then be "exported" to other wikis. (I have virtually made no new articles for 10 years, just made about 50 Lebanese village articles these last 3 months, but ONLY because I have first-class historical sources!)
• I noted on the Lebanese villages/templates, that there were several that you started in 2008-2009.....and then nobody (except bots) had touched them since then.....
• Yeah, it would be useful to have "full" templates for each district, with all the villages/towns listed..... (I have spent a lot of time on Template:Jezzine District, Template:Sidon District, Template:Tyre District, Template:Bint Jbeil District, Template:Marjeyoun District, Template:Hasbaya District and Template:Nabatieh District lately...) but the problem is when what constitutes a "place" (=village, town) in not universally agreed on... In Lebanon one does not even agree about the number of Governorates!!! So how the heck do you make a "full" template when this is the case??

.....(and there is still 150+ of the -48-villages left to de-stub ...(yeah, I´m working on it!!))

• In short; I will probably continue doing what I have been doing for 11+ years: expanding the Palestinian & Israeli, and southern Syria and Lebanon villages and town articles. ;-) Huldra (talk) 21:16, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, I've removed the bits about settlements. This is essentially a quality improvement drive, not a quest to create minor stubs for every village. If you'd seen the work I've done in the last 4 years you'd know that! Let's try to produce something of quality anyway, and get those unedited villages edited :-)♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Dr. Blofeld, actually, I find the templates (like Template:Amasya District ) extremely useful... (the way I spotted those "duplicate villages" in Lebanon was almost always with the help of templates). But I don´t think you can set a fixed rule (for the whole of Asia).... as the info available + the definition of places varies so greatly. Say, if we started from scratch on Lebanon, today, I would use the localiban-site, and make a (red-linked) place for each place mentioned there. So for Template:Nabatieh District I would use Municipalities Nabatiyeh District, and make 39 links, starting with Aabba (using the spelling it use), ending in Zibdine (Nabatiyeh). As long as there is a fixed standard..... Then you avoid having to make edits like this on fr.wp (they had copied the mistake on en.wp: using two articles for the same village...in the template!)

This will of course be different from country to country. I would start getting people who were interested in one particular country agreeing on which (if any!!) "standard" reference they will use. If you can get that, then a lot has been achieved. Huldra (talk) 22:46, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Glad you agree, that's why I created it, and actually it got us some new articles on landmarks! I'm going to set up Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle East/The 1000 Challenge if there is interest which can function as a feeder for the wider Asian one, so narrower focus and easier to work and then every 100 articles or so it can be "tipped" into the main Asian one but stay as a challenge. I'd be grateful if you and a few of your colleagues here could "control" that one and nurture it, put up articles needing work, missing entries etc. It would be a way to get people working on countries like Iraq and Oman too, which I know Al Ameer son mentioned. That OK?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:49, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Beit Qad has been nominated for Did You Know

Hello, Huldra. Beit Qad, an article you either created or to which you significantly contributed,has been nominated to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook and the discussion here. You are welcome to participate! Thank you. APersonBot (talk!) 12:01, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

kan du hjälpa mig

Unduyamo The map size. Can it be reduced and remain legible?Nishidani (talk) 17:25, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

I can try and remake this map.. Not that I have anything better to do right now..--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:46, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Though I really can't understand what is written in most of the texts..--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:51, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Nishidani: I have the same problem as User:Bolter21: the uploaded file is not of a great quality (and I cannot manage to find where the original file is?) Huldra (talk) 21:31, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Stav, very decent of you to chip in, and Huldra also. All I really need is that map outline from top left Eborac Island/Cap York with Evans Bay,Ida Island, Muddy Bay Shallow Bsy, the Albany Island, Albany Pass,Stover Bay, Somerset Bay, (Albany Island glossed with Pabaju) down to Fly Point which is on the corner before the mapline on the right turns south into Fresh Water Bay

All the rest is bullshit. How long would it take to do that, i.e. take the geographic lines, put in the names along the cost, and on the blank beneath the coast line write 'Djagaraga/Dugang territory' for the area from Cape York (high left) to Fly Point extreme right? If it's gunna take more than an hour fagedaboudid. I think in the long term, and can perhaps get round to this when I find more decent maps for that area. Nishidani (talk) 21:51, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Nishidani: making new maps is not something I have done, but I know both User:Bolter21 and User:Zero0000 have..... Huldra (talk) 22:04, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Surely this bad quality draft is an insult (if not to you, then to me), but is that about what you need? screenshot.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:47, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

You're a fucking credit to Wikipedia,Bolter. That's just about perfect, save Somerset Lookout should read Fly Point. If you could put 'Djagaraga/Dugang territory' in the yellow bit running along below the coastland, it would be perfect. I'm in your debt, deeply. If you could upload it on the the Djagarana page, that's it. Well done.Nishidani (talk) 23:10, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Well obviously I will re-make that with an actual satelite picture (cause this was made by the old notebook map), maybe include rivers and also use a different font from what I"ve used for the last 11 years, since the days of Windows98. I"ll try to follow the instruction you gave as well as the "instructions" in the aritlce it self. Unless Zero0000 steals the job until I"ll be done.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:20, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

'use a different font from what I"ve used for the last 11 years' - doing some elementary arithmetic I still remember, Bolter, that means that you first started at 7. The major feature of my life at that age was a snotty nose, being laughed at for paying threepence for a penny I was looking for, watching tadpoles in ditches, eating grubs and raw potatoes stolen from fields. The only sign of intelligence I had at 7 was yawning at religion, inflexibly walking out of the church as mass began and parents' thoughts were focused on prayer, to climb up trees and enjoy the play of sunlight on the leafage, until I heard the tinkle of a communion bell, and snuck back in so I wouldn't be missed as my folks turned round. Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Beit Qad

On 11 November 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Beit Qad, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the modern Palestinian village of Beit Qad is associated with the biblical locality of Beth Ekad, mentioned in the Book of Kings as the site of a massacre? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Beit Qad. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Beit Qad), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 01:12, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Huldra. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Burj, -al listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Burj, -al. Since you had some involvement with the Burj, -al redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. — Gorthian (talk) 22:50, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

Spread the cheer by adding {{subst:Xmas2}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

--Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 18:34, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

User:Rubbish computer; thank you very much, and the same to you! Huldra (talk) 20:35, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Resolutions by the Security Council are legally binding.

Well, it's a bit early for Christmas presents, but I think this one is the best I got since I found, on waking up aged 4 on Christmas day, a golliwog in my bed. Of course, it means that things will only get worse after the Inauguration. Still, when everything else goes to wrack and ruin, a symbolic gesture, with some legal currency, is better than a kick up the arse. Best Nishidani (talk) 20:31, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

User:Nishidani; Undoubtedly it will. (Get worse, after the Inauguration, that is.) Stay safe, and have a peaceful holiday season, best wishes, Huldra (talk) 20:55, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

PS as for the future, I feel that old saying "May you live in interesting times", surely has been granted us?

Predictably the New Jerk Tines spun it thus:'While the measure will have no practical impact on the ground, it was regarded as a major rebuff to Israel that could increase its isolation over the paralyzed peace process with the Palestinians, who have sought to establish their own state on territory held by Israel.' Sigh. That signals that the Palestinians are squatters. The definition of a squatter is someone who seeks to establish their own home on property held by others.Nishidani (talk) 20:42, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, as I wrote elsewhere, I am flabbergasted that the NYT can write as much garbage as they can, about the ME. Oh, and that anyone thinks their writing about the ME is worth 2 cents... Those WMD in Iraq, anyone? Huldra (talk) 20:55, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Palestine-Israel articles

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

The general 1RR restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:

Editors are limited to one revert per page per day on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. In addition, editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit. Reverts made to enforce the General Prohibition are exempt from the revert limit. Also, the normal exemptions apply. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 22:38, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Palestine-Israel articles

Editor of the Week seeking nominations (and a new facilitator)

The Editor of the Week initiative has been recognizing editors since 2013 for their hard work and dedication. Editing Wikipedia can be disheartening and tedious at times; the weekly Editor of the Week award lets its recipients know that their positive behaviour and collaborative spirit is appreciated. The response from the honorees has been enthusiastic and thankful.

The list of nominees is running short, and so new nominations are needed for consideration. Have you come across someone in your editing circle who deserves a pat on the back for improving article prose regularly, making it easier to understand? Or perhaps someone has stepped in to mediate a contentious dispute, and did an excellent job. Do you know someone who hasn't received many accolades and is deserving of greater renown? Is there an editor who does lots of little tasks well, such as cleaning up citations?

Please help us thank editors who display sustained patterns of excellence, working tirelessly in the background out of the spotlight, by submitting your nomination for Editor of the Week today!

In addition, the WikiProject is seeking a new facilitator/coordinator to handle the logistics of the award. Please contact L235 if you are interested in helping with the logistics of running the award in any capacity. Remove your name from here to unsubscribe from further EotW-related messages. Thanks, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Happy New Year Huldra!

Happy New Year!

Huldra,
Have a prosperous, productive and wonderful New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

--Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 12:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

To editor Rubbish computer: Thank you very much! And a Happy New Year to you, too! Huldra (talk) 20:23, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 23:11, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Date of Depopulation

Although it may be too late, I would suggest looking at Morris' dates more cautiously. It seems that his list mixes date of depopulation with date of occupation or destruction. In a few places I saw that the articles give a date for the depopulation, but in Gelbers book, it is described that the villegers already left the village and in the date given by Morris it was either occupied or destroyed.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 01:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Back in, eh, I think it was in late 2009, I went through all the -48 -villages, found at the start of the Morris, 2004, "revisited" book, (and listed in User:Huldra/Morris-list), and added the Morris ref to the infobox. Remember, back then many of the 48 -village -articles didn't have a single ref!! Now, when adding more of what Morris says, and other sources, I'm sometimes bewildered by the choice that Morris has made for "Reason of Depopulation" or "Date of Depopulation".. However, that is no reason to remove it, rather to add more info.

"the date given by Morris it was either occupied or destroyed", yeah, that seems about right. Remember Morris gets his data from the Israeli archives, typically daily reports from the different Yishuv/Haganah commanders; they would report on what they saw/found/did.

As for the Gelber source you are adding, (Yoav Gelber, Independence Versus Nakba; Kinneret–Zmora-Bitan–Dvir Publishing, 2004, ISBN 965-517-190-6)... I cannot find Independence Versus Nakba; in English, and the ISBN 965-517-190-6 indicate a book in Hebrew? (And Kinneret Zmora-Bitan Dvir is an Israeli publisher). Is this the Hebrew version of his 2006 Palestine, 1948: War, Escape and the Emergence of the Palestinian Refugee Problem? If so, I think we should use the English source, and not the Hebrew one.

And yeah, lots of the 48 -village -articles are in a bad state....I'm working on it....(We used to be three editors doing a lot of work on these villages; Tiamut, Al Ameer son, and myself. However, lately Tiamut is on an extended leave (RL, and all that) and Al Ameer son is working on other stuff). So progress is slow.... Huldra (talk) 11:48, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I didn't meant to delete, just to state something I saw. I didn't figure out the changes were made more than 7 years ago. And the Gelber source I am using is in Hebrew indeed, but I don't have the English version, nor it is available on the internet. The Hebrew version might be more detalied. because from the first chapter to the references, there are more than 450 pages, while the English version as a whole is only 399 pages, including, I assume, the notes and sources.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:45, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, the 48 -village -articles were the first group of articles I did major work on, back in 2005-1010. (As I have told you before, the Khalidi, 1992 book was the first book I bought because of Wikipedia editing....) I only started on the West Bank villages and Arab Israeli places after 2011. And I think I will change it to the English Gelber version, then (which I have a hard copy of). Note that many of these villages got depopulated many times, read e.g. Az-Zakariyya. Just checked one example, Dayr Muhaysin: Gelber, 2006, p. 77 (English version) says clearly that the December 1947 evacuation was a temporary one. From Gelber, 2006, pp. 87, 100 (English version) it is clear the villagers returned (and then moved out again before the April 1948 fighting), Huldra (talk) 14:53, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

In the Hebrew version it also says in an earlier part that the British demanded after Operation Nachshon that the Jewish forces will withdraw from Deyr Muhaysin becuase it was on the British evacuation route from Jerusalem to "Gaza, Rafah, Sinai and the Suez Canal", and the Hebrew version said that "the village was evacuated" not "depopulated". It didn't say it was temporary, but at least in Hebrew, "evacuated" usually means temporary. In my comment I referred to Wa'arat al-Sarris and not Dayr Muhaysin. Anyway I wrote the comment on 4AM before I went to sleep without thinking much, but I am happy that we had the conversation in order to improve the editing. If I add information from the book I have, should I make a translated quote in the reference?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:36, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, actually, the Gelber, 2006, p. 87, (English version) is about the British taking over the village Dayr Muhaysin, replacing the Haganah fighters with the British, but that was in the spring of 1948. (And I haven't even looked at what Morris writes about it). And I cannot see that Gelber mention Wa'arat al-Sarris. Just add whatever info you have; I'll add/translate whatever I have of info. Huldra (talk) 16:35, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

So as it seems, both books contain overlapping content (like the word "fiasco" concerning the battle of Ramat Yohanan, as well is information missing in both books. And I already checked in Birth Rivisited and I don't remember seeing much to be added on both villages, but obviously for most other villages there may be.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:17, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I have expanded Dayr Muhaysin, it actually now pass a DYK check....if you care to nominate it. (I'm leaving early Saturday, and won't be back for a few weeks, ...I really should be packing, and not editing Wikipedia....) Huldra (talk) 22:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

But what would be a good fact from it?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

...that the name of the depopulated Palestinian village of Dayr Muhaysin means "the monastery of good deeds"?

...that the Palestine Exploration Fund's Survey of Western Palestine suggested that the depopulated Palestinian village of Dayr Muhaysin was a Crusader village, held as a fief of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?

I really should have found the Edward Robinson and van de Velde references (mentioned by Socin), but it is extremely unlikely that I have the time, sorry, Huldra (talk) 20:39, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Nah that's enough I'll submit it on your behalf. Enjoy your [reason of not being here for a few weeks].--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:17, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Dayr Muhaysin has been nominated for Did You Know

Hello, Huldra. Dayr Muhaysin, an article you either created or to which you significantly contributed,has been nominated to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook and the discussion here. You are welcome to participate! Thank you. APersonBot (talk!) 12:01, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Ni'ilya

On 13 February 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Ni'ilya, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the former Palestinian villages of Ni'ilya and al-Sawafir al-Gharbiyya appeared in the Ottoman census of 1596? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Ni'ilya), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Mifter (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Al-Sawafir al-Gharbiyya

On 13 February 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Al-Sawafir al-Gharbiyya, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the former Palestinian villages of Ni'ilya and al-Sawafir al-Gharbiyya appeared in the Ottoman census of 1596? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Al-Sawafir al-Gharbiyya), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Mifter (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Dayr Muhaysin

On 14 February 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Dayr Muhaysin, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Palestine Exploration Fund's Survey of Western Palestine suggested that the depopulated Palestinian village of Dayr Muhaysin was a Crusader village, held as a fief of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Dayr Muhaysin. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Dayr Muhaysin), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Vanamonde (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Mausoleum of Abu Huraira

I gather you wrote this article; I've left a couple of messages on the talk page. It's good; it could do with being posted to the mainspace, I think. Regards, Moonraker12 (talk) 21:28, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Custom Watchlists

Wikipedia:User_scripts#Watchlist Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Block notification

To enforce an arbitration decision you have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours. You are welcome to edit once the block expires; however, please note that the repetition of similar behavior may result in a longer block or other sanctions.

If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement noticeboard]] or [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily. You may also appeal directly to me (by email), before or instead of appealing on your talk page. 

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Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" [in the procedure]). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped."

I have blocked you from editing for 48 hours for this edit to Jordanian occupation of the West Bank in which you restored a reverted edit (the removal of a map from the article's infobox) without obtaining prior consensus. This action was in breach of the sanctions currently in place in this topic area. You were specifically informed of the restriction on restoring reverted edits without consensus above, see User talk:Huldra#Arbitration motion regarding Palestine-Israel articles. WJBscribe (talk) 11:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

Huldra (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

Please copy my appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard or administrators' noticeboard *Whaw. User:WJBscribe: Yes, I was definitely aware of the editing restriction, I requested it! But it was put in place because if *one* newish editor made changes to an article, then it took *two* editors to return to status quo. It was never meant to keep everything in status quo until everyone agreed!! If this is the interpretation, then we can just shut down, as there will never be agreement about everything in the IP area. If you look at the talk page, you will see many editors from all sides discussing. To be blocked for 1 edit is a new interpretation, something I definitely was not aware of. Huldra (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *I have read "In addition, editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit"...as meaning that the *same* editor cannot restore one of his own reverted edits......but I never took it to mean that anyone else could not restore it either!! ......and I don't think anyone else in the area have interpreted them like that, either (nobody reported me..) Huldra (talk) 15:02, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *User:WJBscribe: I identify as female on my user page, and would appreciate to be referred to as "she", not "he". *Also, I have participated on the talk pages for ages, besides the one edit WJBscribe links to on 21 March, also 20 March, 19 March, 19 March etc. *And I repeat, I have not understood User talk:Huldra#Arbitration motion regarding Palestine-Israel articles to mean that no one could reinsert an edit before everyone agreed. If this is what it means, then I got a lot more than I asked for, back in December: That one should not be allowed to add, or remove, the same material twice in a 24 hour period. Huldra (talk) 15:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *User:WJBscribe: You wrote, about Oncenawhile: "That makes me hesitate about a block, because I generally don't think users should be blocked without first being told they are violating a rule". Well, I had no idea that I was violating a rule. And to repeat: I thought I knew that rule...as I had asked for it! Huldra (talk) 16:11, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *Also, if the December 2016 amendment is the way WJBscribe has interpreted it, it in effect puts all articles under ARBPIA in 0RR. And that has never been discussed (And I, for one would be against it, as it wouldn't be workable). And that was definitely not what I meant should happen, when I asked for 1RR to be strengthen! Huldra (talk) 16:38, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *User:BU Rob13: it might be that my reading of the remedy was skewed by the fact that I know intimately what triggered the December 2017 amendment, namely me asking for "That one should not be allowed to add, or remove, the same material twice in a 24 hour period." I never dreamed it could, in effect, mean 0RR. (And that is something I would greatly object to. I know far to well how difficult it is to agree to what is "consensus" in the IP area, and would strongly object to such a remedy.) I asked for, (and thought I got) that status quo should get the advantage in a dispute between two editors. In this case, however, there were many editors involved. To decide what is "consensus" in such a case can, in my experience, be nearly impossible to determine. Huldra (talk) 17:44, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *User:Shrike: I have always self reverted if I have become aware of doing something wrong! But that is the problem here, I’m not sure I did! *If* the admins agree that I did, then I will 1: self revert, 2: go straight to WP:ARCA to get this rule changed. (Btw, reverting will bring back an WP:OR map, which nobody is for?) Huldra (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *User:BU Rob13: I started a RfC Talk:Kfar Ahim on 12 January, it was closed, for the second time, today. After 11+ years in this area, I know there is absolutely no problem too small not to be quarrelled over. Normally it works out somehow.....everyone keeps to 1 edit a day, + lots of discussion on the talk pages. AFAIK, nobody of "the regulars" in the IP area has asked for a rule the way WJBscribe has interpreted them, which basically takes away that one edit a day. And I mean what I said above: I will go straight to WP:ARCA to try to get it changed, if that is the correct interpretation. Huldra (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *User:WJBscribe, no, it isn't that I think a consensus is always impossible to reach. But Nishidani puts the point quite clearly; a single editor can always claim there is no consensus (And in the IP area Murphys law rule: what can go wrong, will go wrong.) That you do not follow what you yourself state, namely "hesitate about a block, because I generally don't think users should be blocked without first being told they are violating a rule" is bad enough, but what I did is worse: When I went to WP:ARCA in December, it was to get a minor adjustment to the 1RR rule (And I think I speak for most of the "regulars" in the IP area, when I say that 1RR has generally been good). BUT: instead of a minor adjustment, I apparently got a monster rule, enabling me to be blocked, without notice, and without me knowingly making a mistake! Pinging the arb.commers who voted for this, to see if this is what they meant: Opabinia regalis Doug Weller DGG Callanecc Kirill Lokshin GorillaWarfare DeltaQuad Huldra (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2017 (UTC) *User:El_C, User:Opabinia regalis, as I said above, I have always worked within the rules, and always self reverted when I was told I was wrong. This time I was blocked without any warning, by an admin who has earlier stated that he "hesitate about a block, because I generally don't think users should be blocked without first being told they are violating a rule" .....alas, that was a courtesy apparently not extended to me, only to Onceinawhile. That none of you other admins have the guts to unmake an injustice make me not wanting to be a part of this place. Huldra (talk) 16:34, 23 March 2017 (UTC) *User:El C, I don't blame you, I know that the penalty for weel-warring is mostly instant desysop. The one I blame is User:WJBscribe, who blocked me without any warning, and without me knowingly breaking any rule. I have always tried to follow the rules scrupulously, but it is rather difficult to follow rules you do not know exists! I see User:Newyorkbrad, writes here "In my view, "blocking without warning" should never take place in the sense of "the editor was blocked even though he or she didn't know he or she was doing anything wrong, and would have stopped immediately had he or she been told."" ...but that is exactly how I was blocked, and is still blocked! But apparently this is totally acceptable behaviour from WJBscribe? And I am absolutely not "wedded to the idea of everyone having their 1RR per day ", but as I have said, I would go straight to WP:ARCA to modify this monster rule, if 0RR is in fact correct interpretation. I addition to the examples mention by Oncenawhile, I can mention Palestine Liberation Organization, where there was also a bit of a scuffle among "the usual suspects", and none of us waited for a "consensus" on the talk page. Also, could someone please copy this to my unblock request? Huldra (talk) 22:12, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Accept reason:

Per this closing statement. From an abundance of caution, do please take this to ARCA and avoid circumstances which might lead to a repeat of this block until/if the matter is clarified at ARCA. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

My apologies for the error, which I have corrected, I will copy the rest of your message over to WP:AE. WJBscribe (talk) 15:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

User:WJBscribe: Thank you, Huldra (talk) 16:04, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I haven't had time to read the background here, but FYI to all involved that other matters related to the 1RR provision are already under discussion at ARCA, so you might want to look there. (Huldra, I'm sure we can move your comments over if you aren't unblocked.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Now that you know what you know, are you able to guarantee that you can work with the rule as stated?—yes, despite the fact that it is not the clearest of rules and that it does not even have its own projectspace page for further clarification (us enforcing it are unhappy about that, either)—and can further guarantee not repeat said infraction? El_C 15:06, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

The blocking admin feels that answer failed to respond as to how you would handle a slow-moving dispute in the future—so maybe address that instead of protesting. El_C 20:27, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I actually thought your response was good enough for an unblock, but as mentioned, the blocking admin has objected to that. And you know me: gutless. El_C 20:32, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I hadn't gotten back around to viewing things, and I'm a bit put-off that I wasn't pinged for comment before this was closed, Euryalus. I don't find a statement saying that clearly what she did was correct and that she needs to take this to ARCA for "fixing" to be very helpful here. Even in the absence of a remedy, what she did was a slow-burn edit war. Reverting every couple days for a long period of time is still an edit war and still a blockable pattern of behavior. Huldra seems to be under the mistaken impression that this is somehow how we get to progress in the ARBPIA topic area. I strongly object to that. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 01:46, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank for the message. Mildly, I closed the thread based on the consensus of views, not on my own opinion. There was absolutely no consensus in the thread that Huldra was "right," in reverting this material, and the closing statement doesn't suggest otherwise. There was a consensus that "mitigating circumstances" (whether that be a misunderstanding of the remedy, or an assumption of good faith) tended towards an unblock in this instance. That consensus wasn't unanimous; for example you disagreed, and so did WJBScribe. These views were considered and given weight in conjunction with the others. A good point was made that whatever the interpretation of the remedy, it as important that the particular conduct did not recur at least until/if there was a clarification. That was noted in the closing statement and also in the comment in the unblock appeal above. If this conduct does recur, there is now ample documentation to support a further, more substantial block if required. This would be true even if there was no remedy clarification.

In passing, Huldra has also requested above that she be described as "she" and not "he". -- Euryalus (talk) 02:25, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: I propose that you justify or strike out the charge of "reverting every couple days for a long period of time". Apart from the single revert on March 21 that brought Huldra to AE, she made a very partial revert with a good explanation on March 14 and before that no reverts since Oct 26, 2015 apart from some last September permitted by ARBPIA#500/30. Zero^talk 02:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm commenting based on Huldra's statements and based on the general conduct in the topic area. My concern is mostly for edits going forward, not past actions (since all blocks are preventative, not punitive). She's stated that this is the way things are accomplished in the topic area. I'm also not claiming that she reverted once every couple of days or advocated this, but that she both did and advocated for different editors reverting between competing sides once every couple days. This is well-supported by his statements at AE and the page history. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 02:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

And sincere apologies for misgendering; that was not intended. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 02:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

"I'm also not claiming that she reverted once every couple of days" — but you did claim that, quite explicitly. You should apologise. You also appear to have no idea what editing in the IP area is like. Zero^talk 02:41, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

No, I most certainly did not. "Reverting every couple days for a long period of time is still an edit war and still a blockable pattern of behavior" is a statement of fact. I believe it was quite clear in context that I was discussing Huldra's statements on what is "normal" editing in the IP topic area. I've enforced arbitration remedies in this topic area for a while now, and I'm certainly aware what editing is like in the area. The way forward is not to keep reverting until the other side stops. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 03:16, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

You wrote "what she did was a slow-burn edit war"; it is clear enough. Well, she did contribute one edit to a "war" that had 4 edits in total. But let's leave that aside and consider your extra charge, that she "advocated for different editors reverting between competing sides once every couple days". I've now read her statement on AE multiple times and do not find such an advocation anywhere. What she said, correctly, was that most minor disputes in the IP area are solved by editors within the 1RR rule. For long-term or major disputes we have RfCs, which she always participates in and opened her share. Her point was to contrast that reality with the new rule that gives entirely new and extraodinary powers to reverters, who are not even required to explain their revert or take part in the ensuing discussion. If we have to open an RfC every time someone reverts, it will be a catastrophe. She is entitled to express such an opinion without being attacked for it. I've been editing the IP area for 15 years, 12 years as adminstrator, and I agree with her and will support her at ARCA. It is totally false to claim that she advocates edit-warring. Zero^talk 08:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

User:BU Rob13, to the best of my knowledge, no-one in the WP:ARBIPA- area has been blocked for 1 edit in 24 hr before, (well, I’m not counting clear vandalism, of course). If you know of any such case, please tell me. I’m the first, and so far only one, AFAIK. And I hope I will be the last one! Seriously, nobody of the "regulars", AFAIK, in the area has asked for this. This rule is not helpful for us who edit in the area, but it is useful to justify trigger happy admins. Huldra (talk) 08:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Huldra, my point is that brute forcing through a change is rarely (never?) helpful. Say your revert went through. What then? Someone who disagrees comes along, reverts back to status quo. Then do you revert again? The whole point of the restriction was to force discussion instead of reverts. This is encouraged by WP:BRD. It prevents 100% of edit wars (or allows sanctions if they happen, rather). And you don't have to open an RfC, Zero0000. You have to obtain consensus. That can just be a normal talk page discussion where a few editors indicate agreement over one editor who doesn't like the change, etc. Most consensus decisions don't arise from RfCs, just normal discussions. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 15:41, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

User:BU Rob13, well, if I can be a bit flippant: it is very easy to prevent 100% of edit wars; just forbid 100% of the edits....which is the direction we are going.

I was on the talk page of that article virtually every single day, (see above: 21 March, also 20 March, twice 19 March, etc.) (WJBscribe just linked to my very last edit on the AE page.) This is normal in the IP area, we discuss, try out an edit, under 1RR, discuss some more. As for the revert itself, I 100% stand behind removing the old map. It was an OR map, see here, done by a Wikipedia editor. And nobody, (besides Shrike?) argues for it. (I was recently in a very similar discussion, see Talk:Israeli-occupied_territories#UN_territory_map_modified_to_say_.22disputed_territories.22) Now, what would replace it can be argued, I am completely open for a better choice than the one I included (and which is still in the article.) Possibly another map had already been chosen if the discussion/1RR had been allowed to go its normal course, and not been stopped by a trigger-happy admin. And I mean what I say on the ARCA page, if we always need to gain consensus on the talk page before an edit, what will count as consensus? You are opening a can of worms, here.

Actually, editing in this area has never been better, or should I say, less troublesome, as after we got the 30/500 rule. It isn't the editors in the area who has asked for this new monster rule...Huldra (talk) 21:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Merger discussion for Beit Zakariah

An article that you have been involved in editing—Beit Zakariah—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Davidbena (talk) 13:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

At-Tur (Mount of Olives) edit

Hi. An ARBPIA IP brought to my attention that a passage reading: "On Friday, 24 April 2015, a 16-year-old resident of at-Tur was shot dead by Israeli soldiers at the Az-Zaim checkpoin," had the remaining sentence fragment: "after the youth ran toward officers stationed at the checkpoint wielding a large knife," removed by you from the sentence. I'd point out that there may be point of view and due weight concerns with that removal, since now the reader has to click on the ref to learn this—otherwise, your change makes it look as if the youth was merely shot for no discernible reason. Any chance you could restore that half of the sentence for the sakes of clarity in the prose? El_C 02:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

User:El C: I deleted that second half because (as you can see from the second source that I added): the dead boys family denied that he had a knife. You can also see that in this link (typically, they put the claim from the police in the headline, while the claim from the family is noted further down.) Now, I can reintroduce the knife-claim, BUT then I would also have to add that the family disputed this. And I thought that was giving too much space the this one death. What do you think, should I expand it? Huldra (talk) 03:39, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I was unaware that was being disputed. Now it's making more sense. Is there evidence though that a knife was used or that the youth charged them? (Do you know if they recovered a knife? Was the incident filmed?) I would lean toward adding something, even if it is a "during an alleged knife attack" ending to the sentence. El_C 03:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

User:El C: it is not reported that any knife was recovered (which makes the whole claim rather suspicious, in my eyes), nor is any films noted. The Israeli police/military virtually always claim they were under attack, when they shoot any Palestinian. They did that in the Hebron shooting incident, when films later showed that the victim didn't move/was unconscious. I would oppose just adding "during an alleged knife attack" ...I think either we include both the claims of the police and the family, or we include none, Huldra (talk) 03:59, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

do you have any other source than electronic intifada? I can't imagine that site is reliable source for Wikipedia. Right now it's very undue as it appears the police just shot for no reason. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:04, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Too bad, I thought "alleged knife attack" was a compromise which would have worked for both sides. I make my exit, then. El_C 04:07, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

User:Sir Joseph The Jerusalem Post, which I linked to above, also writes "Abu Ghannam’s family has rejected the Israeli account of the incident. One relative, Muhammad Abu Ghannam, said he does not believe the teen was armed, and alleged that he was on his way back from a friend’s party when he was killed." And El C: no, I don't think it is a good compromise, if there is no mentioning of his family denial. But I am fine with adding a sentence like "The police claimed he attacked with a knife, but his family denied this." Huldra (talk) 04:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I think "alleged knife attack, which the family denies." is agreeable and IMO a bit better worded. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:36, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Ovadia

I sent the book and 3-part supplement by email. Note that my email address has changed. Zero^talk 01:14, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

A present for you in your mailbox.

Cheers. Zero^talk 12:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Zero0000, thanks, got it! Seems I have to freshen up my knowledge of works of the Piacenza Pilgrim, Arculf, Al-Muqaddasi and Nasir Khusraw, especially the first two, Huldra (talk) 20:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Typo on AfD:Murder_of_Georgios_Tsibouktzakis page

I noticed that in your comment on page Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Murder_of_Georgios_Tsibouktzakis you wrote, "at the time go hid murder" which I strongly suspect was intended to say "at the time of his murder." It's a bit confusing, though, so you may want to edit it. -- DavidConrad (talk) 01:55, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

User:DavidConrad: you are absolutely right, that was indeed typos, I have fixed it now. Thanks for letting me know! Huldra (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

On Swedhr

Good evening, I have posted in my talk page a comment ref. "Statement on deletion attempts in Wikipedia articles on SWEDHR and its representatives" [19] Brgds, Inkerifi (talk) 01:04, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

RfC on Hasan Salama

I've created a request for comment here [20] due to our recent edit disagreement. You may be interested in leaving your opinion. OtterAM (talk) 00:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Note

Hello, I've noticed your wonderful edits and referencing in so many articles (much appreciated, you are doing a great job!). Upon our recent talk, if you want, I will send you a nice Turkish thesis that referencing Bakhit & Hamud and you can easily figure out the info about the villages (even if it's written in Turkish).--Historyfeelings (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Historyfeelings Thank you! Im looking forward to it! Though it might take some time before I have time to study it, I still have over 150 places identified in the 1596 census, where the material waits to be added, Huldra (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

How to send it? I've got this alert: "This user has chosen not to receive email from other users" Anyway, If you need something instant regarding the census of Levant's villages in the years (1538, 1548-9, 1596) I will help. Thank you --Historyfeelings (talk) 22:41, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Historyfeelings Sorry, I have had too many abusive emails, I fixed the preferences now, and you should be able to send it. Huldra (talk) 22:48, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Sent. Kindly, check. --Historyfeelings (talk) 23:13, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

User:Historyfeelings, ok, I sent you my email address, did you get it? Huldra (talk) 23:22, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Sent. Wish you all the best.--Historyfeelings (talk) 23:40, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Original Barnstar
		Your wonderful contributions everywhere are appreciated. All the best. Historyfeelings (talk) 03:30, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

What, User talk:Historyfeelings: thank you so much! Huldra (talk) 20:03, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

You're most welcome.--Historyfeelings (talk) 20:59, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

What did I edit?

What did I edit that was part of the Arab Israeli conflict? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winsocker (talk • contribs) 03:18, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Answered on your talk, Huldra (talk) 20:26, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Some reading

I read the following (Doron Bar, 'The Christianisation of Rural Palestine during_Late Antiquity,' Journal of Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 54, No. 3 July 2003 pp.401-421 p.413). and found it had abundant refs to villages in the Byzantine period. (Not totally reliable:'Galilee . . . had an absolute Jewish majority' for the 5th century glosses over the known archaeological divide between the Eastern Jewish area and the western Christian majority area, a curious lapse). I've used it for a few pages as you can see. Worth a glance.Nishidani (talk) 16:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

That certainly sounds interesting, any page stalker: please feel free to send it to me!

I have done frightfully little on pre-Muslim eras, but I have Gideon Avni "Byzantine-Islamic Transition in Palestine : An Archaeological Approach" (Two examples with previews available [21], [22]) …which seems quite interesting. Huldra (talk) 20:26, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

You can download Bar's paper directly by clicking on the link. Avni's book is excellent. I've had occasion to cite in around here on several articles. Our articles have a strong Jewish/Islamic heritage bias, reflecting contemporary politics, and it is one of their outstanding defects. Both the pagan and Christian heritage was extensive, and is ignored generally.Nishidani (talk) 20:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Nah, you have to connect to google first...which I don't like to do. I agree with you about Avni, and I like the way he uses old pilgrim records. Alas, Im presently occupied with "picking low hanging fruit", that is, adding 1596 data, SWP, Guerin, etc, etc. When I have done the basic....we will see...Huldra (talk) 20:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't have to connect to google to get it. You've done single handedly the work of a whole community here. Pity so few editors understand anything but POv spinning. Anyhow, profiting from an adbreak during The Counselor now drop me an email and I'll send it on.Nishidani (talk) 21:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

sent.Nishidani (talk) 21:29, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! Huldra (talk) 21:32, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Ben-Arieh

As far as I have so far checked, your transcriptions seem accurate. On page 86, the Hebrew seems to say Khirbat al-'Amud rather than Khirbat al-'Umur, but I think this may be a typo as the only settlement of this name I can find seems to be in the North, near the Lebanon border.

On page 95, you have omitted several entries - apparently, those without a Hutteroth serial number. I could help more if I knew what you were trying to do, and what lists you were comparing this with.

Footnote 4 on Bayt Thul reads "In Hutteroth, Bayt Thun is marked. It seems to us that this refers to Bayt Thul".

I will carry on with this later. It's a long text, and since I'm not sure what you want it's hard to answer you fully. RolandR (talk) 12:20, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

User:RolandR, as I told Bolter over at User talk:Bolter21#Hebrew_needed, I use Ben-Arieh as a check, to see if the info I have put into articles is correct. That is, info from Socin, Hartmann, Schick, see User:Huldra/Socin, in addition to 1922 data. He also use Toledano, for 1600 data, alas, he use the Hebrew version, not the English version, (which I cite at User:Huldra/HA). It is still useful, though: if it is listed in the Toledano Hebrew version, then it is likely that it is also listed in the Toledano English 1984 version (which I have).

Anyway, Bolter has done a lot of work on User:Huldra/Ben-Arieh, please feel free to correct anything you think is at miss! Huldra (talk) 20:13, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

WikiUser8

Misleading edit summaries, removing working links, see also Gabriel (surname). I've got no time right now to check further. Doug Weller talk 06:20, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

I found time. The editor was removing links, even entries, on a number of people and organisations, obviously having searched for them. I've blocked them indefinitely. Doug Weller talk 14:07, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Doug Weller Thanks, you did right. I'm sorry I didn't mark that, I normally only mark those with obvious vandalism, like this joker. I'll try to be more vigilant towards this kind of not-so-obvious vandalism...Huldra (talk) 20:11, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

There's no reason for you to apologise. I just wanted to let you know that I thought that there was a problem, which when I found time I fixed. Doug Weller talk 20:56, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Reflist

I saw you restored the |25em on the reflist. Are you aware that {{reflist}} has recently been upgraded to automatically switch to the most appropriate width so you no longer need to add the |em part to make columns? This is why I was removing it. Number 57 20:55, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Number 57, well, the problem is that it does not for me... I only get one very long column, even say, articles like Bayt Jibrin. And that is rather cumbersome to work with, Huldra (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I suspect you must be either using an old or unusual browser, or have a very narrow screen width. Either way, I would advise reporting this on the template talk page as I suspect a bot will be commissioned in the not-too-distant future to remove it from every article. Number 57 21:06, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Number 57, Thanks, I will do that. I use the largest Mac Air, I think it is 13 inches, and the newest safari. It is probably because my screen width is too narrow. Huldra (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I noticed where you had deleted the disambiguation that I put up in the two articles mentioning a place called Zakkariyya (Zecharia) in Israel. It is my view that it is quite easy for people not familiar with these two places to be confused by them, therefore having a special disambiguation on these two pages will be most helpful.Davidbena (talk) 19:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

User talk:Davidbena, yes, you could easily mix up Az-Zakariyya with Khirbet Beit Zakariyyah (and v.v.) ...but you could also easily mix it up with Khirbat Zakariyya, or even Zekharia. And all of those options are in the dab page Zechariah. I don't think we need two pointers to the same, Huldra (talk) 20:13, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

True, but the difference being that Az-Zakariyya and Khirbet Beit Zakariyyah are sometimes given the EXACT SAME spelling, and are BOTH claimed to be the historical "Beit Zechariah" of Judas Maccabeus where he fought the invading Grecians under Antiochus, of course, claims made by different historical geographers. Conder thinks it to be the latter, while Robinson and Guerin think it to be the former. Therefore, having this special disambiguation is very important.Davidbena (talk) 20:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Personally, I think it looks cluttered, with two different dabs at the top, where one is included in the other. But I seriously cannot be bothered edit warring over style issues.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Huldra (talk) 20:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I've actually seen many Wikipedia pages with two disambiguation-templates, and they look just fine to me. The only reason why I did this is because of the real confusion that can develop when looking for the "twin" site claimed to be the same "Beit Zecharia." The spelling of Az-Zakariyya, of course, did not help much. It gets to be very confusing without some guidance, to say the least. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 20:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, I cannot remember seeing any article with two dabs, where one is a subset of the other, though. But as I said ..... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Huldra (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The German maps

Hi, The German maps are of fine quality, though the connection to Schumacher isn't clear. They are dated circa 1918 and were produced by the German military based on the PEF maps plus aerial photos and their own measurements. Because they are more removed in time from the Akka list than the PEF maps are, I don't think they help to decode the list compared to the PEF maps. However they nicely fill in the gap between PEF and the British maps that are mostly from the 1930s onwards. (However the British military also made maps circa 1918 and I have many of them.) The institute specifically asked me to not distribute the maps but they will surely give you the password if you explain that you are writing articles on the geography. They won't be happy about uploads to Commons though, so I suggest you keep them for your own use only. I did some work at User:Huldra/Schumacher but one thing I didn't check for is identifications that are suspiciously far away. Do you recall any? Cheers. Zero^talk 14:12, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thanks a lot! Now that you have pointed it out, it is obvious that, say, es Samr (east shore) is al-Samra. I had assumed Guwarnet ez Zerka --> Jisr az-Zarqa, but would like some further confirmation on that. As for Mughar el Hazzur?? --> El-Muĝar just NE of Deir Hanna, PEF gO.....that El-Muĝar is Maghar, Israel, and I though that was on p. 189?

Im not sure what you mean by "identifications that are suspiciously far away"?

On another note, Adam Zertal no. 4 book is out, and I have gotten hold of a copy of no 3 (and had no 2 before.) Quite a lot of preview on all of them, Huldra (talk) 20:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

See User:Huldra/Schumacher for comments on both El Mughars. I think the Safed one was definitely wrong before. In general these lists tend to walk around the country with small steps. Plotting them in order on a map would be a good way to identify some mistaken identifications; namely if the list appears to suddenly jump far away and then back again, or a place appears to lie amongst places assigned to a different kada. In this respect it would great to have a map showing the administrative boundaries. Unfortunately the boundaries changed over time and I don't know such a map for exactly this period. However the Zimmermann map at Middle East Yabber has boundaries for 1850 even though they are a bit hard to understand and are written in inconsistent fonts. You can see that the Safed district doesn't extend far west. Zero^talk 03:46, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, you were right, Mughar el Hazzur ‎ was Maghar, Israel: the Mughar el Hazzur gives a mixed population of Druse, Muslims and Christians, just like the 1922 info. Huldra (talk) 21:13, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

By the way, "el Hazzur" probebly has anything to do with nearby Hatzor.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:25, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Let me step in and just ask what maps are you reffering to. Sounds interesting.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:22, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

User:Bolter21, you are welcome to make any suggestions on User:Huldra/Schumacher. Just do as Zero and I do, write your suggestion with Bolter21: first, Huldra (talk) 21:24, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

@Bolter21: We are referring to the maps available here. As I wrote above, I'm not sure why they are associated with Schumacher but they are nice maps anyway. You need to request the maps using a form on that web page. Zero^talk 02:29, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Tool

• https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/editorinteract.py

See

• https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_health_initiative/User_Interaction_History_tool

email

You have email! Zero^talk 00:54, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, got it! Huldra (talk) 20:26, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Shoshahla village

I haven't been able to dredge up much, if anything about this small village in the Bethlehem area, so small it evaded your and Zero's trawling nets. The report says it dates back only to 1878. I'll do the article if I can find enough sources. Any clues? Nishidani (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

User:Nishidani I cannot find it on any map....by the location it gives in the article, it should be somewhere by Khirbet Beit Zakariyyah (which certainly is a heck of a lot older than 1878), Huldra (talk) 20:22, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Looks like another one for the back boiler, then. Thanks for the trouble.Best regards Nishidani (talk) 21:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry I couldnt be of more help. In the Jerusalem Governorate, we have 'Arab al-Jahalin and Khan al-Ahmar articles, which are in a bit of a mess, me thinks.....I have to sit down and clean them up, one day...(if nobody beats me to it) Huldra (talk) 21:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Nishidani: In the 1:20,000 map of the 1940s, the plot of land just south of where Neve Daniel sits now is called Shushalu. I'm guessing that is the same as Shoshahla. A few houses are shown, not clearly a village. I didn't find anything else. Zero^talk 02:55, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks chaps. Reference then to Shushalu can't get underway unless that story is taken up, in short - for lack of sources. H. I'll take a look at Khan al-Ahmar and 'Arab al-Jahalin to see if I can help out. I tweaked the latter, at a point which needs a citation, saying it was 'under' and not 'beside' Ma'ale Adumim - assuming it refers to the string of aboriginal shanties on the left below the road as you drive back from the Dead Sea to Jerusalem? Nishidani (talk) 06:50, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Official gazette of Palestine

To editor Oncenawhile: To editor Nishidani: To editor Bolter21: The Gazette is where the government published official notices, including all laws. I have about half of it on my computer and access to an original paper copy of a large part of the rest. Now I found that apparently the whole lot from 1919 to 1948 is at http://sesame.library.yale.edu/fedoragsearch/ameeltreeresult. Just click "gazettes". The first one there is the official gazette of Syria partly in French but mostly in Arabic. The Palestinian one is in English. It is scanned from microfilm and the search function is patchy for the earlier volumes. Zero^talk 03:48, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Zed.Nishidani (talk) 06:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, thanks, Zero. The one I have seen used it most, is Khalidi, typically saying that such and such a village was noted as a hamlet in the Gazette. Unfortunately he never specify which number it was noted in, so it may take some time to find that...Also, would you mind sharing the electronic copies you have of the Gazette? Huldra (talk) 20:38, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Just as an example, I found on p.1537 on this, that from 1939, Umm ed Dufuf was included in Daliyat al-Rawha'. Therefore I thought I would put all the Umm ed Duff stuff into the Daliyat al-Rawha' article. I would like to be able to link directly....and after a bit of a search, found that I could: p. 1537 Huldra (talk) 21:57, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

The document that identifies some places as hamlets is not this one. It is the Palestine Index Gazetteer, which was produced in several editions around WWII. As far as I know, it is not available online, but please prove me wrong. In my country it is available in one library that regards it as rare and so not available for interlibrary loan. So it is hard for me to obtain, though I'd dearly like to. Zero^talk 23:51, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Just checked, "Palestine Index Gazetteer" is not available in my country, Huldra (talk) 23:55, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 14

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population_footnotes

Having noticed the awkward positioning of references for the population in the infobox in Nitaf, I have added the population_footnotes parameter to {{Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine}}, which, if you use it, means the references appear after the year in brackets (see current version of Nitaf). Number 57 09:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Ok, fine. Huldra (talk) 20:22, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Saudi arrests

I've created 2017 Saudi Arabian anti-corruption arrests as a focal point for yesterday's events and the aftermath.No Swan So Fine (talk) 09:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

User:No Swan So Fine Ok, thanks, I will see what I can do. Huldra (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Revert

Hi the info is not in the article. --Panam2014 (talk) 22:05, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

User:Panam2014 Please look further up, you will see that this link is already in the article. Feel free to expand on it, if you like, but let us not have two links to the same article....and a Daily mail article, at that, Huldra (talk) 22:09, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Done with one source. --Panam2014 (talk) 22:15, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

User:Panam2014 ok, fine....except it looks a bit silly, first having a sentence saying "The Saudi government has denied he was killed, saying he is alive and well" .....and next: "His death was confirmed by the Saudi royal court" . Hhhhmmmm, Huldra (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

AE

[23]--Shrike (talk) 08:50, 15 November 2017 (UTC)