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RFC: Electronic Intifada

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus in favor of deprecating this source, as most all participants voted options 3 or 4, those who voted 4 strongly advocated their position, and few option 3 voters differentiated their position from those favoring deprecation Mach61 (talk) 07:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

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What is the reliability of Electronic Intifada?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

The last discussion was in 2018 and can be found here. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2: The previous discussion on the Electronic Intifada (EI) was not a particularly sophisticated discussion and needs revisiting: it was not a formal RFC, and the opening statement was somewhat rambling, but one key takeaway is that EI does not appear to have generated serious concerns about its adherence to factual accuracy. Media bias fact check is not a reliable source, but is a usefully indicative resource, and it "could not find any instance where EI directly failed a fact check from major fact checking sources". The site goes on to note that only rates "Mostly Factual" as opposed to "High" in terms of its reporting "due to a lack of transparency regarding funding, as well as strongly loaded emotional wording that may be misleading – so again, pertaining to bias, not factual error. EI is distinctly biased (as all media sources are) – this is certain – and this was the principle charge laid against it in the previous discussion, but bias ≠ unreliable, per WP:BIASEDSOURCES, but merely demands attribution. In the case of EI, the direction of its bias, and its specificity to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so obvious that it hardly bears mentioning, but option 2 allows for the formal caveating of the source and noting the attribution requirement. I would note that the first naysayer in the last discussion was the now notorious sock puppeteer User:Icewhiz wielding a Huffington Post opinion piece as the only evidence of factual issues, and, per WP:HUFFPOCON, Huffington Post contributions have themselves been deemed unreliable (in a subsequent 2020 RFC). Many of the following votes merely cite the source's bias, which again, should be addressed through attribution, but does not relate directly to reliability. There are a couple of editorial issues that are drummed up, including a piece from 2008 with a misleading quote that has since been caveated at the bottom of the piece, and another quibbled-over piece regarding a statement and its attribution dating to 2002. However, that in 2018 the best evidence of EI's unreliability that could be drummed up are some relatively isolated poorly attributed statements from 2002 and 2008 suggests to me that the evidence of factual inaccuracy is very threadbare indeed. WP:GUNREL means "generally" unreliable, not demonstrably unreliable once every decade or so. I'm not sure I've seen a bar as high as this applied to any source. To maintain the GUNREL rating for EI, a more serious discussion is required, and some significantly more substantial and damning evidence needs to be provided sustaining the charges of factual inaccuracy or manipulation, as opposed to merely lambasting it for its bias, which is utterly transparent – if only in its name alone, with which it really wears its heart on its sleeve about its leaning. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

MBFC is not a useful way of gauging source reliability. It is the opinion of one random guy, no different to the opinion of the average Wikipedia contributor. That said, I have no opinion on the reliability of this publication. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:12, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 4: Existing consensus is that the source is generally unreliable for facts, as discussed, for example, in Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_250#Electronic_Intifada_(Again). This source is not only extremely biased but also has a very poor reputation for fact-checking. There were plenty of examples brought up in previous discussions. The fact that the website is cited in existing articles, usually for opinions with attribution, has no relevance to its tendency, or lack thereof, to provide accurate and trustworthy facts. Citing these kinds of sources for matters of fact would compromise Wikipedia's reputation as a trustworthy reference. There is also strong consensus that The Electronic Intifada is a partisan source, although this is independent of its reliability. If something is worthy of publishing in Wikipedia, then there will surely be better RS options. Marokwitz (talk) 21:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Marokwitz: If you are saying it is generally unreliable, why have you said option 4, which is deprecation - something else. To deprecate a source, you need to provide some justification, not just your impression based on old, very outdated evidence, part of which was countered in the prior discussion, and which was further discussed in my statement. You have not progressed the discussion on the detail in and way, but merely opined in it. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  Al Mayadeen and Press TV are very similar to Electronic Intifada. In comparison, the tabloid Daily Star (UK), though not a top-tier source, is considered more reliable. These three have been deprecated due to their one-sided reporting and loose approach for fact checking. Examples I saw recently in EI include coverage of Israa Jarbis where Electronic Intifada fails to mention she has seriously injured a police officer; relying on a debunked community-noted tweet by Twitter user SyrianGirl as a source in a recent article; and reporting on helicopters shooting at Nova partygoers based on a Haaretz article, while failing to disclose the police's rebuttal of this claim that was published on the same day.

  Overall, evidence shows that the site has a non-existent approach to fact-checking and publishing formal error corrections. Publishing the truth doesn't seem to be a priority compared to advocacy of a specific narrative, thus I believe it should be deprecated to save our editors' time. Marokwitz (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  Evidence stands taller with some actual links for verification. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• No consensus. No statements made by the source have been given by the opener of the RfC. What are we supposed to evaluate here? jp×g🗯️ 23:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3 - it publishes mostly opinion, and where that opinion is by an expert in the field it should be able to be used. But for its news reporting, it is reporting on other outlets reports. I would say, as I did in the last discussion, that when they report something it will usually be found in other sources, otherwise I place it basically on the opposite end of Arutz Sheva and would not use it as a source for facts. nableezy - 23:44, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Option 4 - A) Electronic Intifada is a partisan news site that has a recent and long history of biased partisan reporting and appears to be pursuing political goals through its newspapers.

It also appears that it seems to support armed struggle and removal of organizations deemed terrorist by Western countries from terror lists.

In August 2020, Electronic Intifada published an article by Samidoun coordinator Khaled Barakat, there they wrote “Association with the Palestinian armed resistance and its political parties is not a cause for shame or a justification for repression…boycott campaigns and popular organizing are not alternatives to armed resistance but interdependent tactics of struggle. Any meaningful defense of the Palestinian people must clearly uphold the right to resist colonialism by all means, including armed struggle – and support efforts to remove Palestinian resistance groups from lists of ‘terrorist organizations.’”

Ali Abunimah, the site’s co-founder and current executive director, stated the following regarding Zionism : “one of the worst forms of anti-Semitism [sic] in existence today” and claims that it is the “continuation in spirit” of the Holocaust. Abunimah has compared Israel to Nazi Germany [1] , he also commented the following on a Holocaust survivor (called Elie Wiesel a “moral fraud and huckster”).

Furthermore, from an article in 18 January 2023 it appears the EI supports the incorporation of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, considered terrorist organizations by US, EU... into the PLO.

"But for that storm to sweep away the old, it needs direction. So far, Palestinian discontent with their leaders has not thrown up any clear alternative strategy behind which parties and new political forces can agree to unite.

Any such strategy needs to answer several crucial questions, notably what outcome to seek and how best to get there, how to unite the main factions behind a new vision for Palestinian liberation and how to ensure that Palestinians in occupied territory can endure under different political conditions.

It will also need to find a way to incorporate Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other factions considered “terror groups” in the west into the PLO while managing the diplomatic and financial fallout."

In November 2022, EI hosted a podcast called “How Zionists collaborated with the Nazis.” in the podcast, “Zionists during that time not only were not bothered about the Holocaust, they actively tried to stop anyone who wanted to provide a refuge from doing so.”

In August 2022, Abunimah has said the following in an interview : “Israel always has to kill Palestinians because it is an illegitimate settler-colonial regime that faces constant resistance from the people whose land it is occupying, colonizing and stealing…the regular shedding of Palestinian blood is a necessary component of maintaining the existence of Israel.”

In June 2021, EI Associate Editor Nora Barrows participated in a conference, “Challenging Apartheid in Palestine: Reclaiming the Narrative, Formulating A Vision,” hosted by the Istanbul Sabahattin Zaim University. It was reported that sponsors, participating and conference , were linked to various terror groups, including, Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP).

In conclusion, Option 4 is the most relevant, considering EI's published content both historically as concluded in previous Reliable Sources discussions as well as recently as shown above; therefore one assumes that this source meets the criteria of Deprecation. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@Homerethegreat: I'm sorry. What is the point behind the quotations above? You just quote passages without making any points about how they relate to reliability. "one assumes that this source meets the criteria of Deprecation." - don't assume: assumption was the problem with the prior discussion, and now you're copy-pasting the problem. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. All the above shows is that EI's ideological leaning is pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel. Opinions are always a matter of debate and can't be used for fact anyway (given WP:RSEDITORIAL) and you haven't shown any evidence of getting the facts wrong. VR _talk 15:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2 Features section only, anything else only if it is a subject matter expert, and always with attribution. I don't believe that this source is guilty of falsification but some material is fairly heavily biased, so use with due care and attention.Selfstudier (talk) 11:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3. They don't seem to do much original reporting. I give them 3 rather than 4 for the odd story that might serve as a useful justification for a statement, but I cannot see that happening very often. Most of their articles seem to be either one-sided reinterpretation of the news reported elsewhere or personal opinions. Epa101 (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Bad RFC Where is the prior discussion? Why is this going to a RfC without a recent discussion or a discussion of how this source is being used? We need examples of misuse before starting a RfC.

Springee (talk) 19:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 (possibly 2): There are a number of major issues with EI, which it is better to see as a group blog rather than a news site. First, it does not adequately distinguish between opinion and news (it has a category "features" which has /news in its URL and a category "opinion and analysis" with /opinion in the url; both of these are mainly opinion).The simple additional consideration would be to treat all articles as opinion pieces and therefore attribute. Second, it rarely presents new factual information. The "features" pieces by guest contributors in Palestine count as reportage, which are the most useful and fact-based articles, but the "features" pieces by their own (mostly US-based) team are second-hand analysis of material reported elsewhere. I would say that this secondary material should not be used citing them but rather that the original source should be used if and only if it's reliable (many of its sources are very unreliable, e.g. deprecated Grayzone), and that EI is not sufficiently reliable for it to count towards assessing noteworthiness. (Unsurprisingly, disinformation and conspiracy sites also republish EI articles. E.g. David Icke's website carried an EI article "How the Israel lobby fakes anti-Semitism" by Asa Winstanley.[2]) Third, I think that this is one of those cases where bias and reliability bleed into each other: EI frequently goes into conspiracy theory territory (this is especially true of its associate editor Asa Winstanley).[3] For instance, its support of antisemitic conspiracy theorist David Miller has led to its reportage being described as antisemitic by the Community Security Trust (CST),[4] and CST and anti-fascist researchers Hope Not Hate have described its reporting of Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party as conspiracy theory.[5] Winstanley frequently appears on Iran's PressTV, on a show produced by David Miller dedicated to antisemitic conspiracy theories.[6] Fourth, I think there might be instances where it can be seen to have been actively dishonest. In 2011, along with the Guardian, it falsely claimed that the CST had made up some quotes; the Guardian corrected their story but EI didn't.[7] Several right-wing monitors (CAMERA, HonestReporting, etc) have presented further examples, but I'm reviewing those as I don't see them as reliable sources either. I'll come back here when I have, and if these claims are compelling I'd say option 3 for definite, otherwise option 2 might be fine. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2023 (UTC) Couple more data points. 1. Here are three biased (right-wing), probably unreliable and slightly outdated sources itemising several issues with EI: NGO Monitor,[8] HonestReporting,[9] CAMERA.[10] It's hard to disentangle political criticisms from exposing inaccuracies there, so I'll leave these for other editors to review themselves. 2. I hadn't realised the extent to which EI is integrated with sources that we deprecate. For instance, it heavily uses Al-Mayadeen as a source,[11][12] it is in turn hosted by Al-Mayadeen,[13] it gives a frequent platform to Max Blumenthal of Grayzone,[14] its staff also contribute to Sputnik, ZeroHedge, Russia Insider, MintPress, etc,[15] and are used as talking heads by Sputnik.[16] In this PolitiFact fact check of a fake news story circulated in the current Gaza conflict, by a far right anti-vaxxer, EI was one of the sources he shared, but the fact check does not actually describe the EI article as false. 3. On the other hand, I've found a couple of instances of its use as a source by reliable sources: Columbia Journalism Review from 2010,[17] Associated Press from 2013,[18] and India Today recently.[19] BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  I'm mainly interested in if EI has been guilty of false reporting or antisemitism, and I tried following your first few links and I didn't get the sense. First, I'd take CST's allegations against EI with a grain of salt; given that CST believes anti-zionism=antisemitism they are the ideological opponents of EI. And as you correctly pointed out, HonestReporting, CAMERA etc also have an axe to grind against EI. VR _talk 15:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 per Nableezy and Bob above, and Alaexis below. While not outright lying (as far as I'm aware), and while yes, all sources are biased, EI's partisan to the point that its usefulness can be heavily questioned (see exaggeration, loaded language, reliance on questionable sources, omission of certain details, and so on) and most if not all of its factual reporting can be found in far more reliable, less-outright-partisan sources. I'm also not sold by the proposer's usage of MBFC, which they themselves bluntly state isn't entirely reliable. The Kip 08:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Would also like to emphasize the latter bits of what Bob's written - the heavy reliance on already-deprecated sources such as Grayzone and Al-Mayadeen is worrying, and I could probably be convinced to vote for deprecation here as well. The Kip 05:59, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3, see my comments below re the lack of separation between opinion and news and various outrageous claims made by the source. No evidence has been presented that changed my opinion in either direction. Alaexis_¿question? 08:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3

EI is an overtly biased outlet and as pointed out by other editors, it deploys conspiratorial websites as its sources. This makes that website unreliable. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 23:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Option 4. Mostly-opinion sites that cite debunked tweets should not be used in WP. All the true info EI has is better reported by other sources. It should not be used. Zanahary (talk) 18:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

One debunked tweet has been mentioned - if there are others; perhaps you could make mention of them. However, one embedded (not even voiced) debunked tweet alone does not demonstrate repeat inaccuracy and is far from approaching cause for deprecation. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

• 4, unreliable and slanted beyond repair. if EI is the only source where someone can find something covered, it has likely been fabricated. ValarianB (talk) 20:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Option 3. The outlet has the word "intifada" in the name. That alone makes it clear this is an option 3. Cursory reading of the sources provided by Homerethegreat makes it obvious this is far too biased to be trusted. Citing it in an article would be like citing Stormfront. The reason why we don't cite biased websites that support violent terrorists is because they have a very strong incentive to lie. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Option 2. Per Iskander323's discussion point below it seems like at least some of the content EI publishes is well-sourced and journalistic and given that reputable journalists publish with EI it seems unlikely that they publish outright fabrications as if they are news. The organization overall has a clear agenda, but it is important to recognize that that many other sources taken as reliable are likely either to lack coverage of Palestinian issues or to (intentionally or not) have coverage slanted against Palestinians. Groceryheist (talk) 19:29, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 based on publishing stuff like this. Cheers, Number 57 21:00, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  What is the specific point of inaccuracy that is being pointed to here that is indicative of unreliability? An uncommon, but by no means isolated headline take, regardless of the level of controversy is not – in of itself – anything. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:16, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

  Mondoweiss (your link) isn't a reliable source either. The mass rape claims are agreed upon by all the reliable sources I could find. The BBC, NBC news, The New York Times, AP news, and The Washington Post agree that there is evidence that rape happened. When extremely pro-Palestinian biased sources such as Mondoweiss or Electronic Intifada construct fictional realities where Palestinians didn't rape Israelis, because that is inconvenient for their POV, that's when we consider those sources unreliable due to their ideological bias. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:48, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

  Compare like with like. Mondoweiss is fine with attribution (they don't make stuff up) and your links do not support "mass rape" (and are in addition hedged about with one caveat and another) which is what M. is saying there is a lack of evidence for. Selfstudier (talk) 18:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

  Since this isn't a discussion on Mondoweiss I'll avoid encouraging the tangent further, but EI lied that it was the Israeli govt that did October 7th. [20] [21] There's also the borderline Holocaust denial where EI lauds a book that blames Zionist Jews for the Holocaust. [22] EI also supported the October 7th attacks. [23]

  IMHO it's pretty simple. This is an identical situation to The Daily Shoah or The Daily Stormer. EI pushes conspiracy theories, deny well-evidenced atrocities (mass rapes), engage in Holocaust inversion (especially by saying the Jews brought it among themselves), and even supported October 7th on that very day. That makes it an unreliable source. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 06:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

  This is far closer to a misrepresention of those pieces than it is to an accurate summary of their contents. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 at least and probably Option 4. The specific falsehoods mentioned above aside, EI has a long reputation of providing misleading coverage, and if used, needs to be used with caution if at all. There's nothing, if at all, that EI would report on or cover that a more mainstream RS, even one that is biased, would not. When called out the outlet does not reliably issue corrections, but in some cases doubles down. For example, misquoting a misleading and incendiary quote from an Israeli official, then claiming others misquoted first instead of doing basic journalism and seeking to verify [24], mistranslations of Hebrew interviews that make exceptional claims [25] (then portraying it as reported fact instead of opinion on its Twitter [26]. It frequently relies on conspiracy rags like The Cradle and The Greyzone for single-sources and misleading reporting. There are many other examples. Editors voted to deprecate another activist outlet MEMRI for similar malpractice, even though EI pruportedly holds itself to a higher journalistic standard. I have no problem with biased sources, but there are far more and better ones than EI, which is more activist than journalist and misleading at best. Longhornsg (talk) 20:17, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

  Can you cite any RS that have accused EI of false or misleading reporting? VR _talk 15:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Option 4 per Longhornsg. It's too biased and unreliable to be used. - GretLomborg (talk) 05:59, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 4 - Per @Marokwitz. Dovidroth (talk) 11:09, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 4 Biased, unreliable, advocacy website. Coretheapple (talk) 22:18, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 4 - Hell no, for the reasons expressed above. Neutrality^talk 23:08, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3 per @Nableezy. Yr Enw (talk) 12:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 4: Biased website with blatant activism. Let'srun (talk) 19:51, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1 One of the last American sources defending basic human rights. Fakecontinent (talk) 17:01, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion

This noticeboard is for discussing the reliability of sources in context. What kind of content do you want to use and for which article? Alaexis_¿question? 20:50, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The regular discussions are about the sources in context, but the RFCs are general and a simple neutral question with the four options. See the other RFCs further up the page. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The point stands. EI is cited as a source in several hundred articles, so its status at RSP has not presented an obstacle to its use. Is there an actual, live issue about its use or misuse as a source? Otherwise a new RFC is not in order. Banks Irk (talk) 01:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The previous discussion was not a formal RFC with the four normal choices; Option 2, i.e. a halfway house was not presented; and the discussion was swamped by accounts now blocked as sock puppets/puppeteers. It was a not a level of discussion that should stand as the bar for this source. Obviously being labelled as GUNREL has a long-term impact on whether the source is deemed usable, with or without caveats. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

One more thing, is there a way to distinguish opinions from news published by the EI? E.g., is this article an opinion piece or news [27]? Here are some of the quotes from it (a) But we are to believe the Israelis had no idea [of the October 7 attack that] was planned right under their noses? They probably knew. And they waited for it., (b) The vast network of Zionist organizations acts as appendages of the Israeli state that extend into all our lives around the world. Alaexis_¿question? 20:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Not in the url from what I can tell, but other than by style, each piece has a short author bio at the end. The example you've shared has a conversational tone that betrays it as clear opinion, but beyond that it is attributed to an external party - the director of a literature festival. This analysis, on the other hand, is attributed to various contributors and "Asa Winstanley is an investigative journalist and associate editor with The Electronic Intifada", so we know it's in-house. This colour piece appears to be not in-house, but from a journalist and presumably commissioned, but it's a colour piece, so not news. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

So I assume that the analysis is the kind of content you'd like to use on Wikipedia. It's long and uses all kind of sources which range from very reliable to complete garbage, but these are some of the highlights

• Non-sequitur bordering on fake news. How is an opinion of a retired officer who did not take part in the fighting becomes a confirmation that Israel killed most Israeli civilians?

“ A retired Israeli army major has admitted [sic] Israel probably killed some of the 1,200 Israelis the government claims Hamas murdered on 7 October. The confession, discovered by The Electronic Intifada, is one of the highest level confirmations to date that Israel killed many, if not most, of the civilians that died during the Palestinian offensive. ”

• Opinion-piece-style statements in the supposed analysis piece: [Josep Borrell] had no regard for the dead women, children and elderly of Palestine, not to mention the men.
• Extreme bias: the hostages are described as detainees in the custody of Palestinian fighters
• Usage of dodgy sources: they mention an anonymous letter published by Mondoweiss

I wouldn't support deprecating the EI, unless there are proven examples of publishing deliberate falsehoods, but it falls far short of reliable source standards. Alaexis_¿question? 11:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe I set out by noting that its bias is clear. The question remains not one of its opinion, but one of factual inaccuracy. And, e.g., the "one of the highest level confirmations" statement, while clearly leaning into a viewpoint, is still couched. Any exceptional claims also remain covered by WP:ECREE. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Fox news for weather and local stations

Does weather fall under the "science" category for Fox news being unreliable. Nothing in this article [28] seems too off scanning through it. Also, do Fox weather and local Fox station fall under the same category as Fox as a whole. ✶Quxyz✶ 19:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. Fox News still employs editors and journalists, it's just that the bigwigs swoop in whenever the audience's beliefs do not align with reality. Ca ^{talk to me!} 17:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, this particular weather article isn't scientific, the things to watch for are climate denial, transphobia, etc. Andre🚐 15:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Local affiliates of news channels are generally not very strongly related to the national networks. In Detroit channel 2 is WJBK, channel 4 is WDIV, channel 7 is WXYZ, and channel 62 is WWJ-TV; one of these is ABC, one is NBC, one is CBS and one is Fox, but go watch 30 minutes of nightly news on each channel and see if you can tell which is which from the content alone. jp×g🗯️ 22:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Local affiliates are in general cool, IDK if some have issues but none of the Fox affiliates I have experience with have the same issues as corporate/cable Fox... They tend to provide solid local journalism often in collaboration with a local paper of record. My experience is largely the same as JPxG's... Their coverage is pretty much indistinguishable in content and tone from the local affiliates of the other three letter words. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Russian propaganda telegram channels

User:Alexiscoutinho insists on using Russian propaganda channels from Telegram as a source [29]. When I tried to remove these (a good bit of info was double cited anyway) I was told to, quote, “get over it”.

This particular channel specifically was anonymous, until an outside investigation revealed its ties to Wagner Group’s Yevgeny Prigozhin (yes, the mercenary group full of neo Nazis, who then mutinied against Putin etc.). The administrators of the channel have repeatedly made false claim, including who they were, putting forth fake identities.

The administrators of the channel themselves have said that “They work(…) in the field of information warfare and counterpropaganda in the name of the interests of the Russian state.” [30]

Call me crazy but that does not appear to be anywhere close to being a reliable source, and an editor who insist on using such sources probably should be kept away from the topic area altogether. Volunteer Marek 21:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

We can't trust Wikipedians individual judgement with anonymous Telegram posts like this. This is what journalism is for. Basically zero reason to ever cite Telegram directly. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

There were better ways to fix that issue instead of just deleting everything like that without any discussion. I've mostly used it as a support source together with ISW reports in that cities list page to explain specific dates when the ISW wasn't really clear about them in the reports. If one requested for me to substitute them, I could do it no problem when I had the extra time. Your assessment should take into account this context and my history of helpful edits in that page. Please don't fall in the "witch hunt" trap. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:35, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: You are over generalizing this. Despite all those problems, which I'm not going to deny because I don't know them very well, it is still a generally reliable source for territorial changes. And I'm not talking about the Wikipedia definition of reliable, I'm talking about the common sense/casual usage of the word. I follow that channel and ISW's reports almost daily and I can attest that those sources go inline with each other almost all the time. There's been a long time that I don't hear something (territorial changes) that Rybar said that was debunked by ISW. When they diverge, it's usually when there isn't a lot of geolocated footage constraining the maps. Rybar is also one of the most conservative Russian milbloggers when it comes to territorial changes. In fact, he was one of the few if not the only one who originally denied the Russian claim that Marinka was captured on December 1. So yeah, I understand your point that he isn't the best source for Wikipedia main space articles, that's why I put {{bsn}} in the battle page, but in that list page I really don't see a problem. In fact, I don't even think the RS guideline really applies to such pages. It was never really meant to be perfect and it will probably be deleted in the future when all the info contained in it goes to the individual mainspace articles. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:27, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not “over generalizing” anything. Very specifically and particularly, Rybar, a self proclaimed Russian nationalist propaganda channel, is not reliable source. I don’t know what “common sense” or “casual” definition of reliable source you have in mind, but that’s actually irrelevant as on Wikipedia we have an established policy, WP:RS and this source doesn’t satisfy it. Not even in the least.

Of course WP:RS applies to such pages. We’re getting into WP:CIR territory here. Volunteer Marek 21:31, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

That page was never meant to fully conform to Wikipedia's quality standards. It's a fast paced page aimed to help the map Module. When the war is over, it will probably be deleted. When the situation of each battle cools down, those citations could all be substitutes with actual reliable sources. I've done that multiple times in battle articles (the battle of Marinka is the only exception that I remember because I was simply confident that when the ISW report comes withing a few hours it would fully confirm those claims). I could be wrong, in which case I would obviously correct it, but that seems quite unlikely as geolocated footage exists and clearly confirms the claim. When the report comes, I planned to substitute it with the report as source, hence the correct usage of {{bsn}} to portray the temporary nature of that citation. Going back to the list page, even if those Rybar citations weren't substituted when better sources were available, it wouldn't be a problem because most entries are deleted anyways when the frontline moves far away from those villages and cities. Thus, I think you guys are overblowing the proportion of this and also not "assuming good faith". Dialogue is always a good first step when you find something wrong, not accusing others of "pushing propaganda" and threatening to sanction the editor. About the "get over it" comment, I'm sorry about that, what motivated it was the shock of such a huge revert without notice/warning. Once again, I think "assuming good faith" there and starting a dialogue there would have been the best action. Also note that several editors there showed no concern with those edits of mine for months. Thus I was quite "angry" at your bold revert. Once again, it doesn't justify the "get over it", but I hope you understand where I (that mindset) was comming from. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

If a "page was never meant to fully conform to Wikipedia's quality standards", then it shouldn't be part of Wikipedia; it's that simple. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, not a repository for breaking news, not a collection of primary sources. Verifiability is one of our pillars. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Deprecate Russian telegram as they are never reliable, and should not be used for ANYTHING. Andre🚐 21:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

All rules/guidelines exist for a reason/motif. Simply repeating/parroting it for any and all contexts doesn't seem very helpful and productive. Please familiarize yourself with the context. But with that being said though, I am indeed willing to stop using it from now on there if it indeed is deemed unfit (after a proper analysis of context). But I vehemently disagree with any form of sanction ignoring WP:AGF. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Anonymous Telegram channels obviously can not be used as reliable sources. Sometimes these "Z military correspondents" channels get referred to by reliable sources (not by sources which only report social media), then I guess they can be mentioned. Ymblanter (talk) 21:35, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you even know the context of those edits? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:RS applies to all mainspace pages. Andre🚐 21:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Literally nothing on Telegram would be a reliable source, nor would anything on any other social media outside of BLPs in an WP:ABOUTSELF piece of info or, in rare occasions, official news accounts on social media reporting on something. Other than that, anything on social media would not be reliable unless a reliable source, such as the news, reports on it. And, in those cases, you would be citing the news article instead. Silverseren^C 21:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• I agree with the other editors here: Telegram channels like these are certainly not RS (and I'm strugglng to think of any "context" that would make these acceptable). Look for reliable secondary sources (like Reuters) instead. Neutrality^talk

• Guys, I know Telegram in general is not a RS according to Wikipedia guidelines. Please consider the context of where they were used. That page is a dynamic and fast paced list and pretty much all information there is temporary (settements far from the frontline are deleted and the whole page will probably be deleted when the war is over and individual main space articles are created). It is also not linked in any article and its only purpose, afaik, is to support the map Module, as a "writing board" (because it's much better to use wikitext and tables instead of writing citations and keeping track of historic changes in Lua comment strings). With that being said, I think the most adequate solution would be to make that page an exception/make it exempt from these more rigorous RS rules (i.e. let those lesser sources be usable, but obviously recommend substituting them with better sources when available). The map template doc itself said something like "big claims require great evidence", but no "big claims" were made there using only these "unreliable" sources (these big claims are kept as wikitext comments, check them yourselves). With all this in mind, I don't see a reason to make such "a big fuss" over this. I already give preference to citing ISW anyways. Thanks. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:39, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I think someone should add “…not a OSINT aggregator” to WP:NOT. Yes, that’s a more general problem with some of these articles. But regardless, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and we stick with our WP:RS policy. Volunteer Marek 00:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

But regardless That's the problem, you don't want to consider the context. It's like a judge who already has a veredict in mind and just applies the sentence without even looking at the evidence and defender's statements. That's just applying rules for the sake of applying them. It doesn't make Wikipedia any better because nobody is even reading that page (just editors) and because the map will still be the same (it doesn't show references for each marker). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:52, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

There's no rule on RS only applying to readers, not editors. I understand what you're saying that it's for internal use, but if that's the case, create a page in Project space or User space. Andre🚐 00:54, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Alright. One last doubt, does purposely keeping the {{unreliable}} banner on that page make it exempt from these more rigorous rules? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

No, those are cleanup tags. They don't exempt articles from policy, especially one as fundamental as this. They exist to provide cleanup tasks in a maintenance queue. By putting that tag, you're telling a volunteer to COMEFIXIT. Andre🚐 01:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

👌 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Quite aside from that Alexis, we shouldn't be providing readers an off link to a source of propaganda that is unreliable, as a reference let alone any kind of external link. I'm not saying you need a sanction or anything for this, just please adjust and move on accordingly, there's a clear consensus not to use Telegram links from Russia for anything, and I wonder if we should consider adding them to the spam blocklist. Andre🚐 00:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

👍 Thanks for the well rounded response. I mostly agree, but there is a caveat/I have a question: we shouldn't be providing readers what readers? That page is not really meant to be accessed by readers. It's more like a dev/internal page. For us editors, being shown such questionable sources is not potentially harmful in any way. We as editors know how to treat those sources and we know their limitations. Already answered above Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

You write that the list is “dynamic and fast paced” and “pretty much all information there is temporary.” But that’s not a reason to suspend, or even loosen, application of our RS policy. In fact, the whole point of the RS policy is to be conservative: if a reliable source is not available, we simply don’t cover it in the encyclopedia. Put differently, it’s better to be slow and deliberate — to wait for sources to develop — than to rush (and thus risk inaccuracy, or even the appearance of unreliability). Neutrality^talk 02:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

👌 I've already addressed the issue. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 02:27, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• In no way is this a reliable source. Wait until independent reliable sources pick it up. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:14, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree with everyone above that such Telegram channels are not RS, but there is a wider issue. I think that after Russian 2022 war censorship laws, which resulted in a significant number of convictions, all sources published in Russia starting from 2022 are not RS on the subjects related to wars conducted by Russia. My very best wishes (talk) 18:42, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Mega claim. You can't just generally try to sanction all sources from a country. Don't forget that Ukrainian sources are also censored. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  We routinely deprecate sources that are simply mouthpieces for repressive states. Black Kite (talk) 19:30, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Correct, but their point isnt wrong that we cant blanket sanction all sources from a country. Case by case, if they are acting as mouthpeices of any state we can and should sanction. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  While we don't have an article about it, the Ukrainian government has imposed quite a lot of restrictions on the media as well (see here). It doesn't mean that we shouldn't use them at all. Our editors can and should exercise judgement and decide whether a given source is reliable for a specific claim. For the avoidance of doubt, anonymous telegram channels are certainly not reliable. Alaexis_¿question? 08:55, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. But, as usual, we can cite secondary RS that cited such Telegram channels. My very best wishes (talk) 18:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Newsweek and Business Insider (low quality mainstream news sources) have occassionally used Rybar as a source, with a pinch of salt. Where they have done, I guess there might be a reason to cite them, with clear attribution, but we should never cite Rybar directly. Some background: https://en.thebell.io/pro-war-media/ https://thebell.io/unmasking-russia-s-influential-pro-war-rybar-telegram-channel https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/11/18/who-s-behind-rybar https://meduza.io/en/news/2022/11/19/the-bell-releases-the-name-of-the-creator-of-telegram-channel-rybar https://meduza.io/en/news/2022/10/14/russian-military-command-complains-about-fake-news-from-pro-kremlin-war-bloggers https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/russian-war-report-pro-kremlin-telegram-channels-twist-iaea-words/ https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/research.php?icode=794 BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

http://www.genocid.lt/Leidyba/1/arunas1.htm

can anyone give me a read on this source? I am going inclined to say yes, because the author is an expert, but I am not and possibly this is a forum, and Holocaust in Eastern Europe is definitely a contentious topic. I will probably have other questions btw. The sentence is was formed by the German occupation government and was subordinate to Einsatzkommando 9 and later to Sicherheitsdienst (SD) and Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo) in Ypatingasis būrys. Thank you all.Elinruby (talk)

It would definitely need attribution at least, as the author and this work specifically have been accused of revisionism of the holocaust. If possible I would find a better source. No comment on the specific details, I'll let someone with more knowledge of the area step in. Also you signature needs a timestamp, otherwise the talk page reply function doesn't work. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:27, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I would not consider this a reliable source on Lithuanian collaborationism. There are far better sources to cite. (t · c) buidhe 02:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

open to suggestions for alternatives, but I mostly agree. The problem is that there are a lot of accusations in the area, including of both the Polish and the Lithianian national archives. It's marginally better than what it replaced, but that is a very low bar. The part about "subordinate to Einsatzkommando 9" seems uncontroversial but its formation is also attributed to the Provisional Government, thus the caution. If all else fails I will report both with attribution. When I am back at that page I will take another shot at this. Ypatingasis būrys seems to have three different origin stories so far.

Apart from Bubnys, though, what about the website? That's the real question. Lithuanian Holocaust wiki-articles seem to rely on it pretty heavily and there may ube an uproar if I remove all references to it at once. Can anyone verify that it is in fact a forum? that apparently mirrors archivist articles? Elinruby (talk) 07:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

My comment was on the author and the work that your link is an excerpt from. If the only source for a detail is a work criticised for its Holocaust revisionism, that details is best left out. The website and organisation itself seems to suffer from the same problem, and criticism of it are not hard to find. Attribution isn't enough in instances like this, as it's verges on false balance. This isn't to say the Polish sources are necessarily better, see the last discussion about IPN for instance. I can find complaints from Holocaust organisation about it dating back at least to 2019, might be that earlier work was less og an issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

That's pretty much exactly what I am struggling with. Several wikipedia articles come across as extended apologia, and that's after giving Bubnys credit for having some of the receipts. As for the Polish pogroms, check out Jedwabne pogrom; some of the statements about it at the last Arbcom case were scathing. It doesn't begin to meet the sourcing requirements for Poland, for a start, and that's after featuring in an Arbcom case. The ones that haven't been touched in a while are quite a bit worse. I take it the forum doesn't especially even meet RS let alone academic sourcing. I was checking because it superficially resembles a Science-Po database that I think does. But yes, I am aware of the criticism of Bubnys, and have been looking at alternate sources for some of the articles that rely on him extensively, more than would be healthy for any author. In other news the sourcing requirement for Lithuania looks like it is passing with 7 supports and 2 abstentions Elinruby (talk) 13:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree sourcing in the area is problematic, sometimes extremely so, but the solution isn't balancing Holocaust revisionism with other Holocaust revisionism. If there isn't any reliable sourcing, the best case could just be to leave out those details. The Lithuania case looks to be a good addition for the subject ares. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Russian sources affected by censorship laws

After Russian 2022 war censorship laws, which resulted in a significant number of convictions, all sources published in Russia starting from 2022 do not seem to be good RS on the subjects related to wars conducted by Russia. I am asking because such sources, for example Kommersant are widely used for sourcing events related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Yes, perhaps Kommersant was a good source in 2021. We frequently say that such sources are OK for official statements by Russian government. But I doubt even that. They occasionally do incomplete and selective quotations and questionable interpretations even of statements by Russian government. More so when they quote and interpret comments by Ukrainian officials, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 19:18, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support reducing the reliability of Russian-state affiliated sources - I'm about to take a wikibreak, but just wanted to throw in early support in principle for this. Andre🚐 19:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment - Could you back up your statement? Kommersant are widely used for sourcing events related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine "widely" really? Could you give us a numbered list? Because it seems you only brought up this complaint because an editor rightfully used it in the battle of Marinka page, where you argued that Ukrainian sources are simply "more reliable" in general. Note that that Russian citation was soon followed by loads of uncontestedly reliable western sources that went in line with the Russian source, but not with the Ukrainian (Pravda) source, which claimed that the general said that Ukrainian forces were still in Marinka (without direct quotes). Call me not WP:AGF, but I've seen My very best wishes' activity in many pages regarding the Ukraine war and I got a pretty good idea of his arguments and thought process. As such, I dispute his neutrality in this specific request/complaint and understand it only as an attempt to sanction/limit access/usage of sources from a country he doesn't like, without necessarily trying to improve Wikipedia's quality. There have already been numerous discussions about the reliability of Russian sources in the past and the WP:RSP list already restricts that POV a lot. For the sake of WP:NPOV, we should first thoroughly analyze Ukrainian sources' reliability (and I mean add them to the colored list at WP:RSP) before trying to restrict even more the more credible Russian sources. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Looks like nearly 3500 citations to it, many of them on articles related to Russia's attack. I don't edit in the area but I can't possibly see how Russian sources could be viewed as reliable given that they're essentially Russian-government mouthpieces. Avgeekamfot (talk) 20:39, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Overgeneralization. I could claim pretty much anything like that. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  I wonder if Ukrainian news outlets are allowed to show these videos https://t.me/rybar/55500...? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

  These are videos posted on anonymous social media accounts linked to the Prigozhin empire. Showing them would not be an indicator of being a good source, and this is false equivalence anyway. If you want to raise issues about Ukrainian media, start a new thread. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

  These are videos posted on anonymous social media accounts linked to the Prigozhin empire. Showing them would not be an indicator of being a good source How would you know? Are you claiming that's a conspiracy theory? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Just to clarify, I am not suggesting to depreciate all such sources, but only say they are "generally unreliable" about wars conducted by Russia only. Speaking on the "Kommersant", for example, it has been affected by firing of leading journalists even before the war [31], and it recently reported itself on the convictions due to the Russian censorship laws [32]. But again, these laws make it impossible to provide any honest reporting in Russia about the war with Ukraine. My very best wishes (talk) 21:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Your second source would suggest that The Moscow Times and Kommersant are mostly unaffected by censorship, and are thus more reliable, since they were able to freely report on such convictions. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:24, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

This is the article in Kommersant they refer to. Yes, sure, they are allowed to write about convictions (it says, for example, "the number of convictions for the treason was 3 times increased"). People should know about such convictions, be afraid, and be silent - that is what Russian government wants. Even Soviet newspapers during Stalin's time wrote a lot about executing the "enemies of the people" - for the same reason. What Kommersant can not do is describing certain operations by Russian army (like Bucha) in all details and calling them "war crimes". Let's take a look at today's page of Kommersant: [33]: "Повреждения получил большой десантный корабль «Новочеркасск», один человек погиб, двое получили ранения." It says that only one person was killed during today's attack on the Russian landing ship Novocherkassk. This is almost certainly a false information, just as some other "info" in this link. That is what I am talking about. My very best wishes (talk) 04:41, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

almost certainly a false information Could be, but without further evidence (I think we only have cellphone videos) we can't say there were more casualties for sure. I would say that's pretty objective/dry journalism. Professional I might add since it doesn't engage in speculation. They don't need to portray the worst case scenario (from the little I know, they aren't Russophobes). While there could be a little bit of bias there (which isn't a problem in Wikipedia if we give proper attribution), I don't see that as an example of unreliability. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The yesterday example is too fresh to discuss. But we have a big page, Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. A lot of disinformation was promoted through Russian state-controlled media. But identifying and listing all of them one by one would be very tedious. My very best wishes (talk) 18:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I dont think blanket categorisations based on nationality are either correct or possible under policy. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

It wouldn't be based on nationality, obviously. There are likely a range of different sources of the Russian language, from different locations, and within each location, a range of different political alignments and affiliations. We're only talking, in this thread, about the ones pertaining to Russian-state affiliated media. Andre🚐 09:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Im fine with your vote, but the proposal states "all sources published in Russia", which I dont think is in line with policy. Just pointing that out. For state media, agree that it tends to be unreliable for matters/events that may reflect poorly on the state (obviously). Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 11:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you, that can be clarified. It wouldn't be all sources in the country but specifically ones demonstrably linked to the government organs. Andre🚐 11:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

This is not really about a source being funded by a government or belong to the government. A radio station can be funded by a government or even belong to a government, but have an independent editorial policy and strong fact checking, and therefore be a great RS. The issue is being controlled by a government when they publish (or do not publish) a lot of things on the instructions "from the above". For example, all newspapers in the USSR were fully controlled by the government through Glavlit and by other means, e.g. any editor who does not follow the ideological instruction by CPSU would be fired. The situation in today's Russia is not very much different: any editor who does not follow the ideological instructions about Ukrainian war will be fired and possibly put to prison. I think that Soviet newspapers can be used for many topics, but they should not be regarded as good RS on subjects related to the Soviet war in Afghanistan, for example. But OK, I got the point. Next time I will provide this in a different format: specific source X and false statements made by this source A,B,C. My very best wishes (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Russia is not unique. There are about 15 countries with strictly worse media freedom situation per World Press Freedom Index and 40 more having the same Difficult status. They include such countries as China, Turkey and Egypt, which also have disputes with their neighbours or fight insurgencies. We as Wikipedia editors should be capable of deciding the reliability of a source on a case-by-case basis. Alaexis_¿question? 08:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

We should routinely and systematically deprecate bad sources from China, Turkey, Russia, Egypt, and even the US, when we need to. I won't remind you what sources I think are bad in the US. As far as Turkey - yes, for sure, there are some bad Turkish sources already deprecated, right? If not, there surely should be. Andre🚐 09:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Andalou is deprecated; isn't that Turkish? Elinruby (talk) 07:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Yup, that'd be a good precedent. In the 2019 RfC, editors generally agreed that Anadolu Agency is generally unreliable for topics that are controversial or related to international politics. Link's on WP:RSP. Andre🚐 07:45, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this kind of targeted measures make sense. Btw RT and Sputnik are already deprecated already. Alaexis_¿question? 19:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you that bad sources should be blocked. My point is that a blanket ban on sources from any country is probably not a good idea. Alaexis_¿question? 23:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Don’t know if any are deprecated, but Anadolu Agency is marked as GUNREL for controversial political topics. The Kip 00:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

correct, not deprecated, but a heavy option 3 for international politics. Should probably be deprecated if anyone were actually trying to add it. Andre🚐 07:47, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Somebody used it pretty heavily in Russian invasion of Ukraine articles. Elinruby (talk) 07:59, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

That is interesting. If you collect some examples I'd be interested to check them out later. Andre🚐 08:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Censorship and political interference in Russian media took place before 2022, and I would expect many of these sources would be used with caution whether published before or after the 2022 laws. However, I'm not sure what the proposal here specifically is. Are there sources being used poorly to a significant and repeated (perennial) degree? CMD (talk) 09:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Note that in Russian language wikipedia, use of sources with editorial boards located within Russia is very limited since 2022 , see Википедия:К посредничеству/Украина — Википедия (wikipedia.org) for details.

Russian sources with editorial boards located or moved outside of Russia is not limited.

This requirement greatly improved Russia-Ukraine-related articles quality. Manyareasexpert (talk) 22:42, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! That helps. I can see that making country-wide subject-limited restrictions for sources can be a reasonable idea, and it has been already implemented on ruwiki. However, my point was not the war between the countries, but specific recent censorship laws that are unique for Russia, rather than Iran or China. This is because the reliability of all sources in the country was directly affected by such laws. This is the reason why most sources published in Russia are significantly less reliable on the ongoing war than the sources published in Ukraine, just as claims by Russian MoD significantly less reliable than claims by representatives of Ukrainian army. My very best wishes (talk) 23:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The restricted use was introduced in this ARBCOM decision Арбитраж:УКР 2022 — Частичное решение — Википедия (wikipedia.org) in response to this Роскомнадзор - Вниманию средств массовой информации и иных информационных ресурсов (rkn.gov.ru) RU govt warning. Censorship laws were introduced shortly after. Manyareasexpert (talk) 23:40, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

This is very interesting and on the subject. Of course Roskomnadzor plays the same role as Glavlit in the USSR. They are censoring even WP (List of Wikipedia pages banned in Russia, Block of Wikipedia in Russia and Wikipedia and the Russian invasion of Ukraine). My very best wishes (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

just as claims by Russian MoD significantly less reliable than claims by representatives of Ukrainian army. Careful with overgeneralizations... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 04:05, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Careful why? Because I am a subject of these censorship laws? Yes, of course they are less reliable, and I explained one of the reasons. Regardless, Russian MoD has been engaged in monstrous disinformation. The ["combat mosquitoes", etc. They destroyed Bradleys even before they were delivered [34]. Russian MoD must be "depreciated". My very best wishes (talk) 05:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

No. Because then you risk losing your point. The Marinka case should still be very fresh in your memory. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Meduza.io is considered reliable, but didn't they relocate out of Russia? Elinruby (talk) 07:38, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith might know. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:44, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

They did relocate and are considered reliable. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Is this source about Siege of Etawah (1770) unreliable and comes under WP:RAJ??

https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.1681/page/17/mode/2up?q=Kabir Sudsahab (talk) 15:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

In what context are you wanting to use that source? For what claims in what article?~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 19:59, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

At the beginning of the next month Ramchandra Ganesh laid siege to Etawa, which had been taken away by the Ruhelas from the Peshwa s agents just before Panipat. This fort was now held by Kabir Khan, on behalf of Hafiz Rahmat. After a fortnight Kabir found resistance useless as there was no hope of succour. On 15th December he vacated the fort on being granted his life and property ; at noon the Peshwa’s standard was hoisted on the ramparts and a Maratha garrison put in. [CPC. in. 505, 517, 530. SPD. xxix. pp. 311-313, Shaikh Kabir is paid Rs. 50,000 as the price of the grain and stores in the fort as well as the arrears of his sebandi troops. I want to use this information from the book. Sudsahab (talk) 21:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I want To use this source to provide context and information to a battle article. Sudsahab (talk) 21:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

What statement do you want to add to the article based on that text? Banks Irk (talk) 21:27, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Iwant to add info like belligerents Sudsahab (talk) 08:13, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Sudsahab, Sitush already told you that it cannot be used. Didn't he? Then what is the point of asking this again? Imperial^[AFCND] 08:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:RAJ is an essay, not a policy, and in context, the essay comments on caste-related writings only. Claims that a history book is unreliable on a battle because of WP:RAJ as a policy is flatly wrong. That being said, I second ONU's question. Banks Irk (talk) 20:11, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

If there is scholarship more recent than 1952, I imagine that would be better. Is there anything you find in Google Scholar? P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 20:40, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

If it was a relatively minor incident, there probably isn't much written more recently beyond passing mentions. Sarkar had a similar attention to detail as E P Thompson's History of the English Working Class - a different philosophy & interest, of course, but he'd find and record minutiae which most people would have skipped even if they uncovered it. Not a bad approach in itself, of course, but it could elevate small stuff into big stuff. I haven't checked if this particular topic is an example of that type of history. - Sitush (talk) 16:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The author of WP:RAJ User:Sitush himself told that that will fall under WP:RAJ, and thus we can't use that. Check the talk page of Siege of Etawah. Imperial^[AFCND] 04:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense. For about the sixth time on this page, RAJ is not a policy, it is just an essay about one editor's opinion, and Sitush is not the ultimate arbiter of what sources are reliable on Indian history. This source is by an eminent historian and is perfectly reliable for use in the context proposed. I've looked at the article talk page, and the one conclusion I've drawn from it is that all of you should be topic banned from India/Pakistan topics for incessant edit warring and incivility. But, that's not a matter for RSN. Banks Irk (talk) 13:44, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I hoped for a polite and civil dicussion. Last time I got warned for editwarring was from you. Nvm, thats not the matter here. Pinging @Sitush once again. Tired of explaining this again and again. Imperial^[AFCND] 13:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Banks Irk, please ping me when you're up to speed with Indian historiography and the widespread acceptance of RAJ and HISTRS. Until then, I don't see much point in reading what you say. - Sitush (talk) 14:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Heh, I notice you invoked RAJ here. I claim no expertise but find your comment above regarding me somewhat disrespectful, coming as it does from someone with so little experience of WP and even less experience of content creation or indeed the topic area in question. For some reason, you have irked me more than many prima facie more blatant PAs. The claim you make that "all of you should be topic banned from India/Pakistan topics for incessant edit warring and incivility", which includes me, is just risible. - Sitush (talk) 14:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

See WP:HISTRS for another widely-accepted relevant essay. We've had this discussion loads of times at RSN. As for the specific source, Sarkar was a Nationalist historian, much revered by the Hindus of India and mostly ignored by the rest of the world. I don't know for sure but it wouldn't surprise me if the current Hindu nationalist government of Modi is trying to boost his (Sarkar's) reputation, just as it has played around with revising history as taught in schools etc. Sarkar made mountains out off molehills, particularly in pursuit of glorification of his favoured themes. Minor skirmishes become major conflicts, for example. The books in question were originally published 1932-38 and their later editions had only minor changes. Sarkar himself died in the late 1950s, by which time he was a very old man. Too many people here have little clue about India but seem to love to pontificate, causing yet more problems rather than fixing any. - Sitush (talk) 13:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush, thank you for looking into this. @Banks Irk, seems like you made a personal attack here without proper investigation. Just because I happened to break 3rr once in few days, doesn't make me a guy who regularly involves in edit warring. You can clearly see that I didn't made an edit dispute in the above article. So, please don't make such allegations again! Imperial^[AFCND] 14:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for proving my point. Banks Irk (talk) 14:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

What point was that? Are you usually this nasty? - Sitush (talk) 14:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I hope its not. But see some of the irritating comments here. Also, I would like to know which of your their point was proved here. Imperial^[AFCND] 14:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

"Gratuitous belligerence" is how someone describes it in that AfD. If I wasn't on mobile, I'd be considering a review at ANI. - Sitush (talk) 14:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

This would be the comment in question, which I made. As an admin, seeing someone go into two separate highly-charged areas and actively throw gasoline on things isn't confidence inspiring. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

"This is an essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints. ", no Raj can't be invoked to ban a source, valid objections must be raised. So why is there source not reliable? Slatersteven (talk) 14:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I have explained why above. - Sitush (talk) 14:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I do not see any examples of factul inaccuracy, or his not being regarded as a reputable historian, just your opinion of him. Slatersteven (talk) 14:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven, Early Indian history books often suffered from personal biases, leading to the exaggeration of content. While WP:AGEMATTERS primarily focuses on science-related articles, it is crucial to implement regulations like WP:RAJ to uphold Wikipedia's credibility in Indian historical narratives. Imperial^[AFCND] 15:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Slatersteven knows this, I'm sure. They enjoy poking me. Try this. Plenty of other critiques out there. - Sitush (talk) 15:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Wow. I didn't expect Govind Sakharam Sardesai would be a part of this. I myself used him as a reference in plenty of the articles. Imperial^[AFCND] 15:13, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

How about we wait for new voices to have a say? Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

One frequently-raised criticisms of Sarkar has been that he was slapdash both in quoting from sources and indeed even citing them. Unlike modern academic historians, he often wrote pages of very lucid, even entertaining, prose without indicating from where his information was derived. He'd make a useless WP editor but had the stylist bent of, say, Gibbon. - Sitush (talk) 15:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The passage in question is extensively footnoted to the author's sources, so that observation seems inapt here. In context, what specific issues do you have with the reliability of the quoted passage and its proposed use in the article? Did he misquote or mischaracterize those earlier footnoted sources? Banks Irk (talk) 15:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

See this; Dipesh Chakraborty quoted this in his book "The Calling Of History Sir Jadunath Sarkar And His Empire Of Truth" "Its reading has generally been preferred here to that of Sarkar’s India of Aurangzeb, which on the admission of the translator, was based on a carelessly transcribed manuscript and contains many errors in the statistical portions." This books cites several other errors quoted by Jadunath Sarkar Imperial^[AFCND] 16:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

But, that is referring to a different book, not the source being discussed here, is it not? Again, is there a specific question about this passage in this book for this article? Banks Irk (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Some sources are unreliable, period. - Sitush (talk) 16:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Sudsahab here asked for the reliability of "Fall of the Mughal empire". The reason for that is, I questioned about the verifiability of the citations and asked him to quote from any sources. The only sources he found to quote were the sources of Jadunath Sarkar and Sarkharam Sardesai. Both falls under WP:RAJ. So he came here to confirm this. If he failed to quote from the reliable sources, isn't there nothing questionable about it? Imperial^[AFCND] 16:17, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The point is that he often did miscite and misquote, even when he attributed. This is a recognised criticism & it makes his corpus problematic. It wasn't unusual for historians of his era but this is where HISTRS kicks in. - Sitush (talk) 16:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Can we please all stop wp:bludgeoning the process, you have all had your say, and let some uninvolved editors chip in. Slatersteven (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

We are being asked to elucidate and are doing so. Feel free to say nothing if you have nothing to say. - Sitush (talk) 16:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I have, I am saying let others have a say, before you address points you have already addressed. \Why is it so hard for you to step back? But you are also wrong, whilst it is true "Some sources are unreliable, period" that is decided by community consensus, not the invocation of an essay. So let the community decide based on the arguments presented. Slatersteven (talk) 17:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

You asked a question, as did others; I responded. I won't be bullied into silence by someone who knows nowt about the issue at hand and seems to want to query without response. Further, neither RAJ nor HISTRS are just essays - they note past consensus, inter alia.- Sitush (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you have responded, and no one is trying to silence you, you have more than had your say. It is an essay, as such it is not a policy, and can't be invoked as a policy or rule (as it is not one). And I ask you (again) to stop making this about me. By the way, the Raj ended 4 years before the publication of this book. Also WP:RAJ is about "The quality of sources on the Indian caste system varies widely", this does not seem to be about caste, so an essay about caste has no relevance. So not only are people trying to apply an essay as if its a policy, they are also misapplying it. As such I have to oppose any action based on those grounds. Slatersteven (talk) 18:05, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I will not be silenced by some dictator. The four volumes date from 1932-38, with numerous reprints & editions containing minor changes. I've said this before but you seem to be in IDHT mode. As you are also regarding my mention of HISTRS. Contrary to what you seem to think whenever you pop up in a discussion involving me, I'm not an idiot and indeed almost certainly can wipe the floor with you on anything appertaining to Indian sources. You're entitled to your say and to ask questions but you must be prepared to receive responses, even ones which prove what you say to be incorrect. - Sitush (talk) 18:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The "Fall of Mughal Empire"'s first edition wasn't published after the Raj. The later versions of that book have very minor variations. The first version was published on 1932. And yeah, I agree that we can let uninvolved people to make an opinion. Imperial^[AFCND] 18:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The link provided said 1952, this is why actually good arguments linked to sources is a good idea. Slatersteven (talk) 18:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Stop this pedantry, please. It is an edition with minor changes, none of which affect the precise passage & none of which are relevant to Sarkar's unreliability. This has already been explained. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• Surely this isn’t the only source to write about this battle… What do other sources say about it? Can the information be cited to a different source? Blueboar (talk) 17:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• I'm finding little in post-19C academic sources but passing mentions. Probably for the reasons I set out earlier (16:02 above). I'm also trying, without much success, to find 21C academic sources which usefully cite Sarkar for anything. I am on mobile, which makes things tedious, but I've been down this road several times in the last 15+ years. - Sitush (talk) 17:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I would like to look at other sources but there is very little information available in other sources. Sudsahab (talk) 17:55, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

If there aren't other secondary sources published after the nineteenth century that provide a significant treatment, does that indicate the event is not deemed significant/relevant in the public consensus as it has now developed, or alternatively that it is no longer understood on the terms by which Sarkar analyzed/understood it? P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 18:29, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Likely blown out of proportion by Sarkar, at least in the opinion of subsequent historians. Etawah was a part of a wider military campaign. The article may well fail GNG, although I haven't even read it. - Sitush (talk) 18:34, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Well I bothered to read it, and have AFD'd it as it seems to not pass GNG. Slatersteven (talk) 18:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I said that earlier and asked for quoting from the sources again and again. But unfortunately, the only development I had following this article is getting called for banning me from such topics. LOL. Imperial^[AFCND] 18:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Slatersteven: well done, you. Your sarcasm antennae may need retuning. And the general issue of the reliability or otherwise of Sarkar remains - Sarkarism rather than sarcasm, you might say. - Sitush (talk) 22:05, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• WP:RAJ is not a policy or guideline, but it does contain explanations of why our policies and guidelines, as applied to sources from the period of the British Raj, generally render those source unreliable. Sarkar was a reputed historian of his time, but we should not be using him to source minutiae of specific battles if those minutiae are not supported by other sources. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
• As with VENRS I think some of the friction comes from how it's used in edit summaries, rather than the advice itself. "The source shouldn't be considered reliable, see WP:RAJ for an explanation" is less likely to ruffle feathers than just "WP:RAJ". Addition help from the India project would also be helpful in such discussions, there have been multiple source questions recently that could have used area specific knowledge. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:04, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Cartoon Brew

Cartoon Brew is an animation newsblog dedicated to subjects related to the animation industry. Think The Hollywood Reporter, but if it was a blog dedicated to animation. It is currently considered reliable by WP:TOON/R, however I am starting to doubt that. The website occasionally uses sensationalism and does not correct errors it makes. They also happened to post a now-deleted article that revealed the private residence of animator Rebecca Sugar. I retract this statement.
So, is Cartoon Brew reliable for animation-related subjects in articles about animation? — Davest3r08 >:) ^(talk) 18:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Writing about real estate sales of celebrities is not doxxing. The well respected magazine Variety covered the topic for years under their "Dirt" section, which was spun-off into its own website in 2019, but was later folded into the Robb Report earlier this year . The author of the piece comes from Variety as noted in the apology, which is presumably why they thought it was okay to write the piece. They apologised for running the piece and deleted it. What more could you ask for? In my experience Cartoon Brew is a perfectly reliable source for animation news. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:48, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I see, I mostly get where you're coming from. — Davest3r08 >:) ^(talk) 21:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I am still skeptical of the reliability of the site though, as a previous discussion noted that it is run and edited by one person, so does it count as a self published source? — Davest3r08 >:) ^(talk) 22:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The site has at least two writers, Amid Amidi and Jamie Lang. Given the websites 2 decade history and coverage by other sources, it seems fine to me. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Although it is a group (2 person) blog, and thus a SPS, one of those bloggers, Jerry Beck, is a recognized subject-matter expert widely published independently within the scope of his expertise. So, except in BLPs, this source is fine. Banks Irk (talk) 03:16, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Banks Irk, Jerry left the blog in 2013. Are articles past that time reliable? — Davest3r08 >:) ^(talk) 15:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The lack of any experienced critic in a WP:SPS is concerning. However, even in 2023, sources such as Washington Post(quick warning: it's about Skibidi Toilet) seems to cite Cartoon Brew for opinions. Ca ^{talk to me!} 12:30, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

BigThink.com

Is this a WP:RS? I stumbled upon an interesting article to help give some context to View of the World from 9th Avenue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The site is Big Think. To quote notable expert opinion, it is suitable. For example Neil deGrasse Tyson. The site is sponsored by the Koch Brothers, who are the kings of conservative dark money influence, it might require some consideration on anything political, which are a lot of things not obviously political. I'm sure the guests are free to say anything they want, not paid trolls of the right, no evidence for that level of concern. (this appears to be not real and/or not really a concern) -- GreenC 18:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Thx. Ive incoporated content in the article to beef it up a bit.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:57, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Resolved

While we are on this subject, earthlymission.com Has similar content related to this perception-based map. Is that an RS?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

It appears to be the blog of Tamàs Varga, which would make it a self-published source and I can't find anything that would show they have been previously published in reliable sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Thx for the info.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:57, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Yahad-In Unum

Has this improved in recent years? It is used to source ghettoization of Jews in Ariogala. Given Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_184#Use_of_Yahad-In_Unum I am tagging it as RS but am seeking comment and review of that. Thanks. Elinruby (talk) 07:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Reading that old discussion, I must confess my confusion that some editors get the impression the source is not reliable. The "Historical Note" and "By Bullets in Numbers" portions are editorial portions, i. e. secondary sources, written by staff and which undergo, from available indications, editorial review. I would consider those portions of the page to be reliable, independent sources. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 08:56, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

No, its still mostly an ego project of Patrick Desbois not a serious academic or historical effort. I would also note that Yahad-In Unum/Desbois has a history of spamming wikipedia, that may be where some of the past negative feelings come from. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 09:28, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Focusing on the question of its reliability, the coverage of Yahad-In Unum I have seen depicts it is a serious enough endeavor, comparable to other reliable projects of public history. It has been favorably reported on in PBS and the New York Times. When I visited the campus of Arizona State University a few years ago, their Hayden Library, an academic library institution, was hosting a museum exhibit based on the work of Yahad-In Unum. Additionally, the New York Times article I linked notes that the project registers an execution or a grave site only after obtaining three independent accounts from witnesses. This is no mere user-generated collection of primary source testimonials. There is a secondary source element of consideration, prudence, weighing and corroborating primary sources, and drawing a reasoned conclusion in the way that quality secondary source authors do. This led me to the conclusion that the secondary source content on the website being asked about (the "Historical Note" and "Holocaust by Bullets in Figures" portions of the "Execution of Jews in Ariogala" page of The Map of Holocaust by Bullets, linked in the references on the Ariogala page) is a reliable source.

Why do you conclude that Yahad-In Unum is an "ego project"? To warrant your claim, would you please cite and/or link reliable sources that describe it as such, and/or as unreliable/inaccurate? P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 18:59, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The question I answered was "Has this improved in recent years?" and the answer is an unambiguous no. I have no idea what you're talking about. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Michaelmaslin.com

Is there any chance that this is a WP:RS for the fact that Eustace Tilley was redrawn in 2017 by Christoph Niemann. Tilley is going to hit the main page in DYK in less than three days.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The URL may be michaelmaslin.com, but it seems the publication is better understood as Ink Spill: New Yorker Cartoonists, News, History, and Events. Ink Spill is apparently a blog operated by Michael Maslin, a longtime cartoonist for the New Yorker. From what I can tell, he qualifies in this case as a subject-matter expert, making the source reliable even though it is SPS. As further evidence of his qualification as a subject matter expert, one could point out that he is the author of Peter Arno: The Mad Mad World of The New Yorker’s Greatest Cartoonist, a biography of a New Yorker cartoonist, published as a book by an imprint of major publisher Simon & Schuster.

Or, more concisely, yes, I think it seems to be a reliable source for that information. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 02:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Thx.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Blogs, even ones by experts, are not allowed as sources for living people. JoelleJay (talk) 20:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Lol good one. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

Nominate Al Jazeera as RS of the year 2023

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Previous noticeboards affirm the reliability of Al Jazeera. The point of view sits at the fulcrum of international consensus, as the state media of the only nation able to broker a truce thus far during the Israel-Gaza War. Acknowledging Al-Jazeera promises to help generate editor consensus where it is otherwise challenged by other influences. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2023-07-18/ty-article/.premium/fake-wikipedia-accounts-conservative-israeli-think-tank-behind-skewed-overhaul-articles/00000189-6945-de70-adcb-f9c77a080000 The point of view aligns with global academic consensus. The depth of reporting and diversity of perspectives aligns with our goals of inclusive international community and the quest for the sum of all knowledge. The unusual step of nominating a reliable source as source of the year is not just a selfish one to help editors edit in peace. It is also a respectful nod to the loss of life incurred by the outlet while covering a war subject to information blackouts. According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, "More journalists have been killed in the first 10 weeks of the Israel-Gaza war than have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year." Those slain include Al-Jazeera's Abdallah Alwan (voiceover contributor), Haneen Kashtan (contributor), Samer Abudaqa (cameraman), and the family of Gaza Bureau Chief Wael Al Dahdouh, who was also injured in the strike which killed Abudaqa. ClaudeReigns (talk) 04:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two branches of the same tree: OW-JP-AH and WCE-WRD/WCD

Operation World, Joshua Project and Asia Harvest

Asia Harvest (https://www.asiaharvest.org/) is an American Christian missionary organisation focusing on Asia and especially on China. They produce extremely detailed (and overestimated) fantasy statistics about Christians for each one of the smallest administrative divisions of the country.

Let's take, for example, the purported 2020 statistics for Shanghai (https://www.asiaharvest.org/christians-in-china-stats/shanghai). As you can see, they extrapolate absolute numbers on the basis of the very same percentage values for the total population numbers of most of the districts, and then the resulting numbers are divided according to the various statistical subcategories. Amongst the numbers in the tens of subcategories, they cite sources for only three of them, and they are some journals (probably missionary journals) dated to 1990, 1991 and 1992, while the general data are presented as being dated to 2020. The source for some of the totals is, otherwise, Operation World (https://operationworld.org/), "the definitive volume of prayer information about the world", associated with the Joshua Project, which is already classified as unreliable in the WP:RSP list.

I propose that Asia Harvest and Operation World be added to the Joshua Project entry in the WP:RSP list. Besides, on the Wikipedia article about Operation World it is written that the subject is related to the World Christian Encyclopedia, the predecessor of what is now published as the World Christian Database and World Religion Database, themselves thoroughly discussed in 2018 and 2022-2023, and listed in WP:RSP. Æo (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I ping Erp who raised doubts about the extreme precision of WCD/WRD data in the abovementioned 2022-2023 discussion, since the same argument applies to this case. Æo (talk) 18:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Besides, on the Wikipedia article about Operation World it is written that the subject is related to the World Christian Encyclopedia, the predecessor of what is now published as the World Christian Database and World Religion Database, themselves thoroughly discussed in 2018 and 2022-2023

The meaning of this point is somewhat lost on me. According to the close of the linked 2023 discussion, There is no consensus to deprecate these sources (bolding added). If consider Asia Harvest or Operation World is/are affiliated with/comparable to the WCE as a source, that would suggest not deprecating them, but instead merely advising editors to use them with prudence while favoring, where available, stronger, more certainly reliable sources. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 18:43, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

They are clearly not the very same as the WRD/WCD (which is nonetheless questionable, and this is why it is in the perennial sources' list and the closing statement also says that there is rough consensus to attribute it and prefer better sources), at least according to what I have been able to find, although they cross-reference to each other (it is unclear to what extent). Asia Harvest and Operation World are on the other hand directly related to the Joshua Project, which is classifed as unreliable in the perennial sources' list: The Joshua Project is an ethnological database created to support Christian missions. It is considered to be generally unreliable due to the lack of any academic recognition or an adequate editorial process. The Joshua Project provides a list of sources from which they gather their data, many of which are related evangelical groups and they too should not be used for ethnological data as they are questionable sources.. Æo (talk) 19:41, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Addendum:

• In The Ethos of Operation World we can read the following statement: We pray that these statistics and prayer points present a reasonably balanced account of what God is doing in our world and of the challenges facing us as we press on to complete the Great Commission. Apart from Operation World, only the World Christian Database/World Religions Database shares our ambition (folly?) in attempting so massive a task as compiling a comprehensive body of data relating to the world’s religions, denominations, and churches, as well as to the progress of the Great Commission.. Here, Operation World and the WRD/WCD are clearly defined as confessional, evangelical entities working together for the "progress of the Great Commission", which is unclear whether it refers to the doctrinal concept or to the American fellowship of evangelical groups which disbanded in 2020.
• In this paper by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, some of whose members are also the editors of the WRD/WCD, on pp. 16-17 the methodologies of the latter are compared to those of Operation World.

Æo (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for this, but you seem to be saying two different things simultaneously. First you say that They are clearly not the very same (bolding added); then you say they are clearly defined as confessional, evangelical entities working together (bolding added). Are they together, or are they not; and in either case, why is that a reason for depreciation of Asia Harvest (which is the source I thought was under discussion).

In any case, it is not so clear to this reader as it is to you. The Ethos statement does not seem like evidence of organizational collaboration. Rather, it reads as an observation that they share a field of study: both are attempts at compiling a comprehensive body of data relating to the world’s religions, denominations, and churches. To use another example, both Michael Burlingame and Ronald White shared the ambition (folly?) in attempting so massive a task as narrating the life of Abraham Lincoln in single-volume biographies. But they were not collaborators.

As for the "Christianity in its Global Context, 1970–2020" document, the comparison drawn is moreover a contrast, pointing out how Operation World's definitions of "evangelical" inflate their numbers compared to the World Christian Database.

Finally, simply as a note, you emphasize connections between GCTS faculty and the World Christian Database but have left out how World Christian Database is published by Brill, an academic publisher that employs editorial and peer review. (Likewise, World Christian Encyclopedia was published by Oxford University Press, also an academic publisher that employs editorial and peer review.) That, plus their relative contemporaneity (as both were published in the twenty-first century) instills a great deal of confidence in WCD and WCE as sources.

In any case, this has been a digression. The posted discussion at hand pertains to Asia Harvest and Operation World, which have different publishers and different traits. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 21:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

It is ascertained that WCE and OW originated as two branches of the same tree, and that they maintain some connections, as hinted to in the statement above about the "Great Commission" and underlined especially in the sentence in that paper Believers in Christ from a Muslim Background which I have quoted below (17:04, January 2 addendum): There has been a long history of close collaboration and mutual sharing of information among Operation World ... and the World Christian Encyclopedia. This is what I meant, and I am still investigating to find further, clearer evidences. Besides, AH and OW appear to be related as well, given that the few references showed by AH are mostly to OW statistics, and in turn OW is clearly connected to the Joshua Project (they are authored/edited by the same person, Patrick Johnstone), which is acknowledged to be a completely unreliable source.

Amongst the many discussions about the JP, read this 2008 one, which was particularly animated (and which highlights that already back then there were strange waves of spamming of this type of sources, as I myself noticed more recently); some quotes: [JP is] a very aggressive evangelistic project. ... Linking or even mentioning this project on this kind of scale should be considered as fundamentalist Christian spam. (Jeroenvrp); All links to the Joshua Project should be deleted immediately and without question. The information on the site is often original research and totally incorrect. It is not a reliable source at all. The fact that someone can't find alternative information on Google is no excuse: get out of your chair and head to a library. (Caniago); Here is another example which illustrates the sort of disinformation they are spreading. They invented a whole range sub-ethnic groups of the Javanese ethnic group, yet there are no published academic sources (in books or peer reviewed papers) which mention these sub-ethnic groups at all. There are a plethora of other examples of their disinformation if you compare their website against reliable sources. (Caniago); The project site is not an academic source. ... The Joshua Project has an religious agenda. Anyone should agree on that. This is very clear on the site and not even that, it is also very offensive. Not only for people of these ethnic groups, but for anyone who condemn these kind of aggressive evangelisation practices. I even find it very scary how they present the data (e.g. see the column "Progress Scale"). It's like: "evangelism meets the Borg". ... The data on the Joshua Project is unreliable, like others before me have proved. ... Information from the English Wikipedia is easily translated to other Wikipedia projects. Although people who translate should double check these kind of sources, unfortunately sources like the Joshua Project are spreading like a virus to those other projects. That's why I am here now, because I noticed the Joshua Project was listed as a source on the Dutch Wikipedia and learned that they came from here. So know your responsibility! ... To conclude this: I am not accusing individual Wikipedians for "fundamentalist Christian spamming". No, what I mean that on a larger scale it's "fundamentalist Christian spamming". (Jeroenvrp); There are no cases where there Josuha project is the best source of data. A bunch of evangelical missionaries are the last people who can be trusted to present non-biased reliable ethnic data; the examples we have given proven the case. (Caniago).

Regarding the fact that some of the sources we are discussing here (WCE and its successors) have been published by renowned publishing houses, this does not make them reliable. This was already pointed out in the 2022-2023 discussion. The "peer review" and "editorial process" is very often carried out by people belonging to the very same agenda and organisations (those American evangelical organisations). Take for instance the paper Believers in Christ from a Muslim Background that I quoted below: it was written by D. A. Miller, peer reviewed/edited/co-authored by Patrick Johnstone of the WEC International, and published on the Interdisciplinary Journal of Research on Religion founded by Rodney Stark (known for his publications which were very supportive of Christianity); the journal's editorial board includes Massimo Introvigne, whose CESNUR and related publications are themselves currently listed as unreliable in the WP:RSP list (and I personally consider CESNUR, or at least some of its publications, as much more reliable than the sources we are discussing here). Regarding the fact, and the problem, that the WCE and its successors have been published as seemingly academic resources, there are some further considerations expressed in a recent critical essay which I will cite and quote in a separate section below (cf. #World Christian Encyclopedia and World Religion Database/World Christian Database). Æo (talk) 00:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that CESNUR and its related publications are more reliable than the assessment listed on Wikipedia's current Perennial Sources page would suggest. I think the generally unreliable characterization is inaccurate and that the academic field of religious studies has a much more favorable impression of CESNUR than Wikipedia's Perennial Sources page does.

Patrick Johnstone was not a peer reviewer of "Believers in Christ from a Muslim Background: A Global Census". Blind peer review means the reviewer is anonymous. Johnstone and Duane Miller are listed co-authors of the paper. The two peer reviewers would have been two other scholars whose identities neither of us know.

Your impression that renowned publishing houses like Brill and Oxford University Press are somehow being subverted by a conspiracy of Evangelical authors who defy the consensus of the field of religious demography stretches this editor's credulity. The peer review process is more robust than that.

That information is shared between World and WCE does not necessarily make one unreliable merely because the other is. Different sources can use the same raw data to arrive at different conclusions, such as how WCE and Operation World arrive at quite different total numbers, projections, etc.

In any case, I think that an earlier comment in this discussion from Erp rings true: for this particular discussion, we should concentrate on whether Asia Harvest and/or Operation World are reliable. There is not a consensus between us about WCE or WCD or WRD. Maybe there can yet be a consensus between us about Asia Harvest and Operation World. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 00:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with P-Makoto: "Your impression that renowned publishing houses like Brill and Oxford University Press are somehow being subverted by a conspiracy of Evangelical authors who defy the consensus of the field of religious demography stretches this editor's credulity. The peer review process is more robust than that." There is no evidence that the process is somehow compromised and is just speculation. Borders on conspiracy theory actually. In fact they show divergence of data too per already quoted differences in numbers in the sources. They are not equivalent or the same. I also agree that we should concentrate on whether Asia Harvest and/or Operation World are reliable. Ramos1990 (talk) 01:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

P-Makoto, I never wrote about "a conspiracy of Evangelical authors who defy the consensus" and are trying to subvert academic publishers. Apart from this, you wrote that the Ethos statement does not seem like evidence of organizational collaboration, but the statement in the Miller & Johnstone paper clearly tells us about a long history of close collaboration and mutual sharing of information. Also re-read Erp's comment below, with an excerpt from the Operation World book (2010 edition, p. 25) telling us that ... the Joshua Project List, the World Christian Encyclopedia and a handful of other resources are at the heart of this information, which is both fuel for prayer and data for mission strategy, and on that page the discourse of the author is general, about the shared project in which OW, the JP and the WCE are all actors. In my opinion, there is enough evidence to affirm that the WCE and the OW, and their affiliated projects, are still closely related. The discussion about the WCE and its successors, however, continues below (cf. #World Christian Encyclopedia and World Religion Database/World Christian Database). Æo (talk) 18:39, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Regarding P-Makoto, I never wrote about:

You wrote that Regarding the fact that some of the sources we are discussing here (WCE and its successors) have been published by renowned publishing houses, this does not make them reliable. This was already pointed out in the 2022-2023 discussion. The "peer review" and "editorial process" is very often carried out by people belonging to the very same agenda and organisations (those American evangelical organisations) (bolding added). P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 19:11, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The next question is the reliability of "Operation World", multiple editions by Patrick Johnstone and Jason Mandryk with the latest being the 7th edition, published 2010, plus a web site. It is explicitly a prayer guide and does not seem to be peer reviewed. I note in reference to the Joshua Project that Operation World's website states: "The Joshua Project is our default site for people group information." https://operationworld.org/prayer-resources/helpful-resources/ Looking at the google preview of the book has "...Joshua Project List, the World Christian Encyclopedia and a handful of other resources are at the heart of this information" Given the dependence of "Operation World" on Joshua Project a "Generally unreliable source" and lack of peer review for the work itself, I would say Operation World must also be listed as "Generally unreliable source". Erp (talk) 20:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree, and the WRD/WCD should be re-assessed as well, given its connection with Asia Harvest/Operation World. In Darrell L. Bock (2013), The Cape Town Commitment: A Confession of Faith, A Call to Action: Bibliographic Resources, p. 32, we read: These two books come from the same stable. While up to the mid-1990s the databases behind Operation World and the World Christian Encyclopedia were virtually identical, they began to diverge in the 1990s, partly because Operation World took a more generous definition of the word 'evangelical'. In 2010, World Christian Encyclopedia said there were 300 million evangelicals worldwide, whereas Operation World said there were 550 million.... On the same page, the World Religion Database/World Christian Database and the Atlas of Global Christianity are identified as the continuations of the World Christian Encyclopedia, while The Future of Global Christianity is identified as built on the database of Operation World. Other minor publications associated with them (listed on the same page) are: World Christian Trends – AD 30-2200, World Churches Handbook, Global Religious Trends 2010 to 2020, Megatrends and the Persecuted Church, Global Restrictions on Religion, Global Pentecostalism, The New Faces of Christianity, The Next Christendom, Barna Updates (https://www.barna.org), and Global Mapping International (https://www.gmi.org). Ultimately, they are all affiliated with the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization, the same who launched the 10/40 window concept. Æo (talk) 21:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The assessment of the World Religion Database and World Christianity Database strikes me as a separate question. If they are re-assessed, I would encourage re-assessing them "upward" rather than "downward". The source you cite, Cape Town Commitment, even identifies how the two sources are different: Operate World took a more generous definition of the word 'evangelical'. In 2010, World Christian Encyclopedia said there were 300 million evangelicals worldwide, whereas Operation World said there were 550 million. You speak of WCE/WRD/WCDs' connection with Asia Harvest/Operation World; however, what seems to be demonstrated is their disconnection; if Operation World and Asia Harvest are overstating, WRD/WCD/WCE apparently are holding back in comparison. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 01:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that the WRD/WCD should be re-assessed "upwards"; their problems, which are still different from those of the AH/OW discussed here, were pointed out and thoroughly discussed with extensive quotes from critical sources in the specific 2022-2023 discussion. AH/OW and WCD/WRD are ultimately two branches of the same tree, dedicated to "the progress of the Great Commission" (cf. above), and this does not mean that if one of the two branches is unreliable the other is reliable, and vice versa. Both of them have problems, albeit differentiated. Æo (talk) 01:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

There appears to not be consensus between us. The specified 2022-2023 discussion also had extensive references from laudatory sources which reviewed the Encyclopedia positively. I developed an impression that the listing of WRD/WCD/WCE as "additional considerations" may have been excessive and not the right call.

But that would be a discussion different from that of the present one about Asia Harvest. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 03:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we should concentrate on whether Asia Harvest and/or Operation World are reliable. Given that Operation World depends on the already listed as generally unreliable, Joshua Project, and Asia Harvest depends on Operation World that both should also be listed as generally unreliable. In addition neither seem to be peer reviewed. Does anyone disagree? Erp (talk) 03:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Before leaping to "Generally Unreliable", may I ask whether "Additional Considerations" would be appropriate, and if you do not think so, why not?

I would note that peer review, while a gold standard, is not Wikipedia's only standard. Many sources subject only to editorial review and not peer review (newspapers, magazines, nonfiction books published with non-academic but still reputable presses) are accepted on Wikipedia, so the lack of peer review is not itself necessarily a point against. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 06:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

P-Makoto, True. Your observations are accurate with respect to the additional comments you have brought up. Indeed the jump to generally unreliable is why the RFC for WRD/WCD/WCE failed depreciation petty badly across the board. The academic sources did not support such a claim. Context matters to what Asia Harvest is being used on. Also numbers on China are hard to pin down. All polls are estimates for that. Ramos1990 (talk) 08:20, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Erp that AH/OW should be classified as "generally unreliable" given the precedent represented by the related Joshua Project. The latter was the subject of eleven discussions on this noticeboard, and it was decidedly assessed as unreliable; just read how editors commented here and here, for instance: ...some argue based on the idea that they wouldn't have any reason to give inaccurate figures. This isn't a useful argument. There's also strong opposition to using them as a source. According to their list of data sources, a solid majority of their sources are just other evangelical groups... They shouldn't be ranked beside census counts as equivalent... They should be considered unusable due to a lack of verifiable methodology and recognition for statistical or academic contribution, even when setting aside all questions of advocacy and bias. (Elaqueate); We have no idea where they get their data, it's not part of their primary mission, and there's no significant penalty to them for errors, so I see no reason to consider them as a reliable source for population statistics. (Mangoe); I looked at the source, and I believe you. It's a hobby site by three random religious enthusiasts. Certainly not a reliable source for population data. (Alsee). Regarding the use of non-academic sources ("newspapers, magazines, nonfiction books published with non-academic but still reputable presses"), P-Makoto, yes, I think they should be eschewed and I always try to eschew them when I contribute to Wikipedia. Besides, other considerations apply in this specific case, given that we are dealing with a field of information, statistics, for which there are official censuses and statistical institutions which provide "hard data" — i.e. precise numerical results which constitute "facts" subject to minimal interpretation —, and even in the case we need "soft data" — i.e. unofficial and not always accurate data —, there are still impartial and reliable survey agencies to rely upon. In said field of information, we do not need WP:SPECULATIONs produced by organisations with blatant agendas of evangelism, proselytism or propaganda through unclear methodologies (in our case the methodologies are declared, indeed: word of mouth from priests, pastors and other church staff). Æo (talk) 14:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Addendum: Here other users expressed other clear evaluations of the quality of the JP: Religious advocacy group, cites unreliable data sources. (PaleoNeonate); Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated. You cannot trust any of that website's claimed population numbers for ethnic groups even to an order of magnitude. (anonymous IP); Very obviously unreliable. Attempting to use it as a source is absurd. (Tayi Arajakate). The use of the Joshua Project on Wikipedia even caused the creation of an article about a non-existing ethnic group: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jawa Pesisir Lor. Æo (talk) 15:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the use of non-academic sources ("newspapers, magazines, nonfiction books published with non-academic but still reputable presses"), P-Makoto, yes, I think they should be eschewed and I always try to eschew them when I contribute to Wikipedia.

As individual editors, we all I suppose have the option to hold ourselves to higher standards than Wikipedia's; however, it is not consensus to, as a project, eschew newspapers, magazines, and nonfiction books published with non-academic but still reputable presses for being such. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 21:29, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Looking at https://www.asiaharvest.org/christians-in-china-stats/china Multiple sources, I initially thought the TSPM and CPA figures were accurate since they are possibly official government sources (these are registered and recognized churches) except notes 3 and 4 indicate that the registered protestant number is from a 2010 survey that found 23 million registered protestants and that the numbers were adjusted to include non-adults and presumably the decade since. The number has been adjusted to 39,776,275 for 2020. In addition the table apparently took the 2010 Operation World figures of 86,910,600 protestants in 2010 (unregistered House Church and TSPM) and apparently projected forward to 2020 and got 109,650,630 (split between the 39,776,275 registered and 69,874,355 unregistered (note the increasing specificity during the data manipulation). I decided to look at what might be the overall source "2020, Hattaway, The China Chronicles, no page number given" which seems to be a 7 book series "The China Chronicles" by Paul Hattaway and published, by as far as I can see, "Asia Harvest" an organization Hattaway co-founded with his wife. I'm guessing he or his organization is also responsible for this table published on their website. Both count as self-published and not at all peer reviewed. They might accurately cite other sources. Erp (talk) 19:37, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Here we can read that the book Operation China by Paul Hattaway has <...a foreword by Patrick Johnstone, author of the best-selling Operation World, who "I have relied much on the information in 'Operation China' during compilation of the section on China for the latest edition of 'Operation World'. May this unique book go a long way to focus prayer on the need for the gospel among these peoples.'>. Patrick Johnstone is mentioned in your comment above (20:13, January 1). AH and OW are definitely related. Æo (talk) 02:00, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I found 54+ references to "Asia Harvest" in Wikipedia. A lot have to do with descriptions of people/languages where Asia Harvest in turn is citing another source (I suspect the "Encyclopedic Dictionary of Chinese Linguistics" for at least some which is a 1991 work in Chinese [Zhongguo yu yan xue da ci dian 中国语言学大辞典]). My guess is that Asia Harvest was used by wiki editors because it has translated some of the information into English. I suspect editors would be better off for a comprehensive work relying on Ethnologue (which has some faults but is generally accepted by scholars) though it does require a subscription. Glottolog is also useful especially for references to works on a language (less so for numbers of speakers).

Operation World is also cited (oddly enough mostly in articles about Baháʼí such as Baháʼí_Faith_in_Nigeria) which has "Estimates of membership vary widely - a 2001 estimate by Operation World showed 1000 Baháʼís in 2001 while the Association of Religion Data Archives (relying on World Christian Encyclopedia) estimated some 38,172 Baháʼís." Another source had about 15,000 in 2000 (Lee, Anthony A. (2011). The Baha'i faith in Africa: establishing a new religious movement, 1952-1962. Studies of religion in Africa. Leiden ; Boston: Brill. ISBN 978-90-04-22600-5., page 107, itself citing an unpublished article). I'm inclined to go with the peer reviewed book. Erp (talk) 05:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Duane Miller's Believers in Christ from a Muslim Background: A Global Census (n.b. edited by Patrick Johnstone, WEC International), questioned on this noticeboard in 2017, was built on Operation World and Joshua Project data. On pp. 3-4 we find further details about their parent organisations (as of 2015) and author: The results of this massive, multidecade data collection effort were eventually made available in the form of the religious data on the Operation World website, which is hosted by Global Mapping International, and the ethnolinguistic data on the interactive website of the Joshua Project, for which Johnstone was a senior editor. Therefore additional details on the sources of our information can be found at the website of the Joshua Project, which is currently managed by the U.S. Center for World Missions.. If my understanding is correct, based on our previous findings, Johnstone was ultimately behind both Operation World and the Joshua Project. Æo (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Addendum: Let's keep this secondary, as suggested above, but on the same p. 3 we read: There has been a long history of close collaboration and mutual sharing of information among Operation World, the Summer Institute of Linguistics, and the World Christian Encyclopedia.. Æo (talk) 17:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The Miller and Johnstone source clearly supports that Operation World is a reliable source by the way. Ramos1990 (talk) 20:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Johnstone is the editor/author of the OW and JP themselves. Therefore, that paper is a completely unreliable source. Besides, in the 2017 discussion one of the commentators correctly pointed out that the study misused the word "census" (which has a very precise meaning) in its title, misleading readers to think that the statistics presented were really from a census, when they were not: The author declares that he has published "a global census": the problem is that a census is "an official enumeration of the population, with details as to age, sex, occupation, etc.". So no, it's clearly not a census of any kind. Far from that. (AlessandroDe). Æo (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Heartily disagree, you can't point to a walled garden as evidence of reliability. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with AEo and Erp, these publications should really just be grouped together in one GUNREL entry here. They're all interdependent and interrelated using the same evangelical propagandizing. JoelleJay (talk) 22:08, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@JoelleJay: I agree that they should be grouped as a single WP:GUNREL entry. Would you also support a deprecation? I decided to open this discussion since a few days ago I noticed that the OW-JP, through AH, is still being spammed throughout various articles without attention to its problematic nature and classification as unreliable in the perennial sources' list. This has been ongoing since the 2000s, unfortunately, and even on other Wikipedias, as the user Jeroenvrp from the Dutch Wikipedia complained in the comment quoted above from 2008: unfortunately sources like the Joshua Project are spreading like a virus. This is why I think that, perhaps, it is time for the further step of deprecation.

Also, what is your opinion about the related World Christian Encyclopedia and World Religion Database/World Christian Database discussed below? Æo (talk) 01:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

World Christian Encyclopedia and World Religion Database/World Christian Database

Our latest discussion about the World Christian Encyclopedia and its successors, the World Religion Database and World Christian Database, currently also presenting their statistics through the platform of the Association of Religion Data Archives, was in late 2022-early 2023. As demonstrated in the section above (see comments 20:13, 1 January by Erp; 20:16, 1 January addendum by Æo; 17:04, 2 January addendum by Æo; 18:39, 3 January by Æo), the WCE and its successors have some connection and/or collaborate and share information with Patrick Johnstone's Operation World and Joshua Project and their network (incl. Paul Hattaway's Asia Harvest, et al.), and ultimately the WCE and OW branched out around the mid 1990s from the same statistical database, and they all seem to be affiliated with the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization (see comment 21:17, 1 January by Æo).

A new critical essay about the WCE and its successors, which adds to those already mentioned in the foregoing 2022-2023 discussion, was published right last year: Adam Stewart's Problematizing the Statistical Study of Global Pentecostalism: An Evaluation of David B. Barrett's Research Methodology, in Michael Wilkinson & Jörg Haustein's The Pentecostal World (Routledge, 2023, pp. 457-471). It criticises the methodologies of David B. Barrett, a Welsh Anglican priest and the creator of the WCE, which were used to compile the WCE itself. Todd M. Johnson and Gina A. Zurlo, who are also mentioned in the essay and are the theorists and directors of "Global Christianity" studies at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, are otherwise the continuators of the WCE in the form of the WRD/WCD.

Within the essay, the author elabrates: <... what I call the “Pentecostal growth paradigm,” initially promulgated by David B. Barrett, and now ubiquitous within the field of Pentecostal studies, as well as four common critiques of the paradigm ... the complicated typology conceptualized by Barrett in the first edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia in order to classify and measure Pentecostals around the world ... the – very limited – information that Barrett provides regarding the data collection techniques that he used to gather the data contained in the first edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia ... the construct validity threats contained within Barrett’s typology of Pentecostalism and data collection techniques, which, I argue, provide sufficient evidence to substantiate previous claims that the Pentecostal growth paradigm lacks the methodological rigor required to provide valid research results ...> (p. 457).

Other quotes:

• pp. 457-458: Stewart explains that some Christian authors have pushed for: <... a trend of steadily increasing estimates of global Pentecostal adherence ranging anywhere from 250 to 694 million ... The genealogy of this authorial ritual can be traced back to David B. Barrett’s original attempt to enumerate all of the various forms of global Christianity published in the first edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia in 1982, which, he argued, revealed the substantial numerical growth of Pentecostalism between 1968 and 1981. This is confirmed by Johnson who writes that “virtually all estimates for the number of Pentecostals in the world are related to Barrett’s initial detailed work”. Barrett persisted in this project for another two decades, which was continued by his closest academic successors, namely, Todd M. Johnson and, more recently, Gina A. Zurlo, who continue to record the ostensibly boundless growth of Pentecostalism around the world, a perspective which I refer to here as the Pentecostal growth paradigm ...>;
• p. 458: He explains that such a paradigm was adopted and fueled by church leaders: <... who flaunted estimates of Pentecostal growth in an attempt to legitimate their particular religious organizations, proselytistic efforts, beliefs, and/or practices. Non-Pentecostal scholars of Pentecostalism, of course, also played no small role in reifying the Pentecostal growth paradigm. Estimates of the dramatic numerical growth of Pentecostalism served “to legitimate their work among their disciplinary peers who largely understood Pentecostalism as either a social compensatory mechanism for the poor, uneducated, and oppressed or – from the opposite perspective – an oppressive form of cultural imperialism that homogenizes vulnerable poor and uneducated global populations” ...>, and explains that <Some scholars of Pentecostalism – even when sometimes citing the continually ballooning estimates of global Pentecostalism themselves – are critical of the Pentecostal growth paradigm, and, especially, of Barrett’s contribution to this discourse. In my review of the academic literature, I detect four common critiques of the Pentecostal growth paradigm. First are concerns that Barrett’s early research methodology might not have been sufficiently sophisticated to provide valid results. Second is the charge that Barrett’s use of the three waves metaphor carries an ahistorical, Americentric, and teleological bias ... Third, is a more specific critique closely related to the more general second critique, which asserts that, although the increasing prevalence of Pentecostal adherence around the world is not seriously debated by scholars of Pentecostalism, a significant portion of increasing Pentecostal growth estimates are the result of definitional sprawl rather than an increase in the actual number of adherents ...>;
• p. 459: He cites, amongst others: <Allan Anderson, who has characterized Barrett’s estimates of global Pentecostalism as, variously, “wild guesses,” “debatable,” “inaccurate or inflated,” “considerably inflated,” “wildly speculative” “controversial and undoubtedly inflated,” “inflated wild guesses,” and “statistical speculations” ...>;
• p. 463: <Barrett’s description of the data collection techniques that he used in order to gather the data contained in the frst edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia was incredibly short – just two paragraphs ... Another notable characteristic of the data collection techniques employed by Barrett is a very liberal approach to estimation. He wrote, for instance, “The word ‘approximately’ is the operative word in this survey; absolute precision and accuracy are not to be expected, nor in fact are they necessary for practical working purposes. This means that although the tables and other statistics may help readers who want specific individual figures, they are mainly designed to give the general-order picture set in the total national and global context. To this end, where detailed local statistics compiled from grass-roots sources have not been available or were incomplete, the tables supply general-order estimates provided by persons familiar with the local statistical situation.” Barrett even admits to extrapolating estimates of the total national populations of those Christian organizations that largely recorded only either child (e.g., Catholics who mainly record baptized infants) or adult (e.g., Baptists who mainly record confessing adults) adherents. He explained, “the missing figure … has been estimated and added either by the churches themselves or the editors.” Barrett explained, for instance, that he estimated the total number of Catholic adherents within a country “by multiplying total affiliated Catholics (baptized plus catechumens) by the national figure for the percentage of the population over 14 years old”.>;
• p. 464: Stewart comments that: <... his [Barrett's] cavalier approach to data collection and estimation raise significant red flags regarding the validity of his work.>;
• p. 467: <The presence of significant monomethod bias represents a catastrophic failure of Barrett’s research design, which, as a result, does not meet the minimum standards of valid social scientific research. In addition to this more fundamental construct validity threat, the first edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia also contains evidence of five other threats to construct validity relating to data collection techniques, namely, reactivity to the experimental situation, experimenter expectancies, attention and contact with participants, cues of the experimental situation, and timing of measurement.>;
• p. 468, Stewart concludes: Unfortunately, the research methodology employed by Barrett – specifically his typology of Pentecostalism and data collection techniques – was simply too flawed in order to provide valid social scientific research results that can be trusted and longitudinally or geographically compared. My analysis confirms Anderson’s claim that, “Scholars should no longer assume that there are some 600 million pentecostals in the world without further qualification”>.

I have also found further older papers containing negative critiques of the WCE and its successors:

• Marta Reynal-Querol & José G. Montalvo's A Theory of Religious Conflict and its Effect on Growth (Instituto Valenciano de Investigaciones Económicas, 2000): On p. 10 we read: <For the sake of comparison we also collected data directly from the World Christian Encyclopedia (WCE) using its division of groups. This data set has the advantage of being a time series, providing information for 1970, 1975 and 1980. However, as we pointed out before, this source has several shortcomings. ... Comparing to the other source of information we realize the data is biased towards Christian religion. ... The distribution of religious groups between 1970 and 1980 does not change in many countries. There are only about seventeen countries that present change in proportions. But those changes occur in countries where there is double practice and they usually imply an increase in the percentage of Christians ... Because of these reasons we take the data coming from the WCE with a lot of caution.>.
• Andrew McKinnon's "Christians, Muslims and Traditional Worshippers in Nigeria: Estimating the Relative Proportions from Eleven Nationally Representative Social Surveys", Review of Religious Research, 63(2): 303-315 (Sage, 2021). In it we read: <... those assessments that make use of multiple sources of data, such as the World Christian Database (WCD), have not tended to make their calculations publicly transparent, nor clarified how they have squared the differences between contrasting indicators.>; <Figures in the most recent edition of The World Christian Encyclopedia (Johnson and Zurlo 2020) draw on figures assembled and updated as part of the World Christian Database (WCD) ... None of the particular calculations are provided, nor is there any accounting for methodological decisions in any particular case; neither transparency nor replicability are in evidence, which makes social scientific evaluation of how they reached their conclusions impossible.>; <... they also note that the Database does seem to overestimate the Christian identification, and expressed concern about what appears to be uncritical acceptance of figures provided by religious groups of their membership. With reference to one denomination in Nigeria McKinnon (2020) has recently found evidence that supports the criticisms offered by Hsu et al (2008). WCD estimates for Anglican identification in Nigeria were found to be dramatically over-estimated due to The Church of Nigeria's un-evidenced membership claims.>

--Æo (talk) 18:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that Wilkinson & Haustein argue there are meaningful flaws in the methodology of Barrett and WCE. This criticism in a reliable source of the demographic methodology and technique is the first indication to me that there is substantial reason to be cautious about using these sources. (I remain unconvinced that the socioreligious affiliations of certain authors and editors is as much reason for alarm as you have seemed to imply.)

With Wilkinson & Haustein's detailed criticism focusing on Pentecostal demographics, would we say that additional considerations must be taken when citing WCE for specifically Pentecostal demographics?

For now, I will pause my earlier musing that WCE/WRD/WCD could be re-assessed to "Generally reliable" and would consent to them being left listed as "Additional considerations". I would suggest the description in the table be changed to emphasize that the reason for such an assessment is that reliable sources have criticized the sources on methodological grounds and that the demographic conclusions require "further qualification". P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 10:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Context matters here.

These databases are global debases from academic publishers and they provide useful data that others simply do not have. All major undertakings like this will have some methodological issues and no survey or census is immune to it. No survey or census is definitive on religion. All provide pieces of the puzzle. Two examples one on another global demographic attempt and another on a country:

Actual estimates on the "atheism" demographics show how multiple surveys do not agree on the numbers or method per each country or globally. There are many reasons why this would be the case - countries vary in understanding of religion and diverse methods each one contains. For example you would think that determining atheist rates is easy (yes/no) but its more complicated. Zuckerman's study [35] states "Determining what percentage of a given society believes in God – or doesn’t -- is fraught with methodological hurdles. First: low response rates; most people do not respond to surveys, and response rates of lower than 50% cannot be generalized to the wider society. Secondly: non-random samples. If the sample is not randomly selected – i.e., every member of the given population has an equal chance of being chosen -- it is non-generalizable. Third: adverse political/cultural climates. In totalitarian countries where atheism is governmentally promulgated and risks are present for citizens viewed as disloyal, individuals will be reluctant to admit that they do believe in God. Conversely, in societies where religion is enforced by the government and risks are present for citizens viewed as non-believers, individuals will be reluctant to admit that they don’t believe in Allah, regardless of whether anonymity is “guaranteed.” Even in democratic societies without governmental coercion, individuals often feel that it is necessary to say that are religious, simply because such a response is socially desirable or culturally appropriate."

At the end he had to sift through a grip of surveys his estimate ranges from 500 million 750 million atheists worldwide from this paper. Pretty wide range. His country by country ranges are complex in p. 15-17 using numerous databases. WCE and even Operation World are used in a few without issues by Zuckerman.

Even the census data can show wide divergence with other surveys in other countries like Britain. Voas and Bruce (2004) "Research note: The 2001 census and christian identification in Britain" [36] state "Results from the 2001 population census suggest that nearly 72% of people in England and Wales may be identified as Christian. This figure is substantially higher than the proportion found by the British Social Attitudes survey and other national studies. It is also higher than the broad estimates of the size of the ‘Christian community’ previously produced by the Christian Research Association, the leading source of religious statistics in the UK (Brierley, 2003:2.2)." And even note issues with census data collection ”Another problem seems more serious. Unlike opinion polls which ask questions directly of respondents, census forms are generally completed by one individual on behalf of the entire household. There is no rule about who should take responsibility, but typically it is the head of household or at least a senior member of it."

On the WCE, The Andrew McKinnon's source does state The editors of the World Christian Encyclopedia provide reasonable methodological reflections on the different sources upon which scholars may draw in order to estimate the different religious populations of the world, as well as some of the issues that crop up as one tries to reconcile sources that disagree (Johnson and Zurlo 2020: 897–914)."

And the Marta Reynal-Querol & José G. Montalvo source does say ”For the sake of comparison we also collected data directly from the World Christian Enciclopedia (WCE) using its division of groups. This data set has the advantage of being a time series, providing information for 1970, 1975 and 1980.”

Other sources like Hsu et al. 2008 deal with methodology directly and state [37] state "Scholars have raised questions about the WCD's estimates categories, and potential bias, but the data have not yet been systematically assessed. We test the reliability of the WCD by comparing its religious composition estimates to four other data sources (World Values Survey, Pew Global Assessment Project,CIA World Factbook, and the U.S. Department of State), finding that estimates are highly correlated....Religious composition estimates in the WCD are generally plausible and consistent with other data sets."

For WRD "Given the limitations of censuses, including incomplete and irregular global coverage, potential political bias swaying the findings and the absences of many religious groups from censuses, any religious demographic analysis must consult multiple sources.[38] They state their sources which include census and surveys as well and say they are transparent to the scholarly community p. 1. Ramos1990 (talk) 15:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ramos,

Regarding your claim that these databases are global debases from academic publishers and they provide useful data that others simply do not have: this is simply false: there are statistics produced by national censuses, national statistical institutes, and independent reliable survey organisations. Regarding your claim that no survey or census is definitive on religion: censuses are official countings of the characteristics of the whole population of a country, and in the case they have any shortcomings there are other surveys produced by national statistical organisations or independent reliable survey organisations. "Independent reliable" organisations necessarily means non-confessional, non-missionary, non-evangelistic, while "survey" organisations necessarily means that they actually conduct polls among populations. The WCE/WRD/WCD, given the evidence, is neither the first, nor the second thing.

Regarding Zuckerman's study of worldwide atheism, I do not understand what it has to do with the case being discussed here: Zuckerman does not claim that his study is a census, and in any case I would not use it in Wikipedia articles in place of census statistics. Regarding Voas & Bruce's research, I also don't understand what it has to do with our case: statistics from the British Social Attitudes Survey and the Christian Research Association have never been given precedence either in Wikipedia or elsewhere over census statistics. I think that the 2001 British census finding that 72% of the population identified themselves as Christian was correct, and in any case their number has shrunken to 59% by the 2011 census, and to 46% by the 2021 census; I trust that these are the correct proportions of self-identifying Christians within the British population in the three census periods.

Regarding your excerpt from McKinnon's paper, it continues with the sentence that I already quoted above: None of the particular calculations are provided, nor is there any accounting for methodological decisions in any particular case; neither transparency nor replicability are in evidence, which makes social scientific evaluation of how they reached their conclusions impossible..

Regarding your excerpt from Reynal-Querol & Montalvo's paper, it continues with the following conclusions, also already partially quoted above: However, as we pointed out before, this source has several shortcomings. First, and probably the most important, the data does not consider the possibility of double practice, very common in Sub Saharan Africa and Latin America countries. Comparing to the other source of information we realize the data is biased towards Christian religion. A clear example is the case of Kenya in which the distribution of religions is considered to be similar to Spain or Italy. The distribution of religious groups between 1970 and 1980 does not change in many countries. There are only about seventeen countries that present change in proportions. But those changes occur in countries where there is double practice and they usually imply an increase in the percentage of Christians and a reduction in the size of animist followers. Because of these reasons we take the data coming from the WCE with a lot of caution..

Regarding Hsu et al., their full paper can be read here, it was already widely quoted in the 2022-2023 discussion and it is mostly critical of the WCE/WRD/WCD. I hope it is not necessary to repeat the same findings already explained in the 2022-2023 discussion. However, your quote is missing the following parts: ... however, the WCD does have higher estimates of percent Christian within countries. ... we find that WCD estimates of American Christian groups are generally higher than those based on surveys and denominational statistics. ... the WCD counts tiny religious minorities, classifies some Muslim groups within the neoreligionist and ethnoreligionist categories, and has higher numbers of nonreligious. (p. 680); the conclusions about correlation with other datasets: ... the WCD tends to overestimate percent Christian relative to the other data sets. Scatterplots show that the majority of the points lie above the y - x line, indicating the WCD estimate for percent Christian within countries is generally higher than the other estimates. Although the bias is slight, it is consistent, and consequently, the WCD estimates a higher ratio of Christians in the world. (p. 684); and the final conclusions: We find some evidence for the three main criticisms directed at the WCD regarding estimation, ambiguous religious categories, and bias. The WCD consistently gives a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets. ... We also found evidence of overestimation when we compared WCD data on American denominational adherence to American survey data such as ARIS, due in part to inclusion of children, and perhaps also to uncritical acceptance of estimates from religious institutions. ... we find the WCD likely underestimates percent Muslim in former Communist countries and countries with popular syncretistic and traditional religions. ... Data on percent nonreligious are not highly correlated among the five data sets..

Regarding the WRD's own methodology paper, it is a self-published source (n.b. Brian J. Grim is another member of the Gordon-Conwell team) and it is quite simply false that they use census statistics; their data definitely do not correspond to the statistics provided by censuses. This is obvious and anyone can demonstrate it, given that census statistics are public and accessible to anyone. Stewart's paper (p. 463) also mentions census statistics dated 1900 to the 1970s, which are obviously obsolete, and some improbable unpublished data from “unprocessed” or “incomplete” national censuses. Æo (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Addendum: We must also remember and underline another important, critical point, which is that WCE/WRD/WCD data are speculative projections (WP:CRYSTAL) ranging from 1900 to 2050, not even survey outcomes, actually. Æo (talk) 17:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

P-Makoto, I would agree with your proposal to add that "reliable sources have criticized the sources on methodological grounds and that the demographic conclusions require further qualification" to the description in the table.

I would not restrict the scope of the source to Pentecostalism alone, however, owing to the fuzzy definition of Pentecostalism itself (cf. Stewart) and to the fact that its alleged 600+ million adherents, purported by the sources being discussed here, add a lot to the overall number of Protestants and Christians worldwide, and also owing to the fact that (cf. Stewart; Reynal-Querol & Montalvo; McKinnon) this demographic "athorial ritual" (as Stewart calls it) apparently originated among Anglicans and also involves the overestimation, and often self-overestimation, of the populations of other Christian denominations, including Anglicans themselves and Catholics, and therefore of Christians as a whole.

I would also agree with your proposal that the source be kept in the "additional considerations" category; otherwise, if other users think it would be more appropriate to downgrade it to the "generally unreliable" or even "deprecated" category (given the continuous spam campaigns of which they are, and will likely continue to be, the subject), I would agree with them. Æo (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I would not agree with downgrading the sources under discussion to "Generally unreliable" or "Deprecated". I have proposed neither, and I oppose both.

You would not restrict the scope of the source to Pentecostalism. But why then does the author make Pentecostalism and the "Pentecostal growth paradigm" the scope of the argument? I would be more comfortable being cautious about how far we extrapolate those conclusions.

To clarify, I do not mean to simply add "reliable sources have criticized the sources on methodological grounds and that the demographic conclusions require further qualification" to the description in the table. Rather, I would propose replacing the present description in the table with such a sentence. The current description of editors considering the source WP:PARTISAN etc. is based on editor assessments, rather than reliable secondary sources. There is not consensus on whether or not the sources are partisan. But perhaps there can be consensus that a reliable source has said that the projections require further qualification and have methodological flaws. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 21:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

P-Makoto,

I agree the depreciation is unreasonable. But I certainly would question the Petacostal paper when Hsu 2008 paper clearly does an actual wider assessment and concludes "To address the criticisms mentioned above, we compare the religious composition estimates in the WCD to four other cross-national data sets on religious composition (two survey-based data sets and two government-sponsored data sets): the World Values Survey (WVS), the Pew Global Attitudes Project (Pew), the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and the U.S. State Department (State Department). In our analysis, we find support for some of the criticisms made by reviewers, but on the whole we find that WCD estimates are generally consistent with other data sets. The WCD is highly correlated with the other data sets, estimates for percent Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu; however, the WCD does have higher estimates of percent Christian within countries." and "In sum, we find that the WCD religious composition data are highly correlated with other sources that offer cross-national religious composition estimates. For cross-national studies, the WCD may be more useful than other sources of data because of the inclusion of the largest number of countries, different time periods, and information on all, even small, religious groups.”

Also I think that there are methodological issues with other sources like census data as is exemplified with Britain. Many countries do not even have religion questions on the census either. But no one tries to depreciate those sources. It seems too much to require more from WCE than other sources when the evidence shows it is reliable and consistent with other databases on the whole.

I think removing partisan and leaving the wording as is for in text attribution makes more sense for middle ground on the table.

Also these databases are respected by diversity of scholars and authoritative sources such as scholars of Islam (e.g. The Oxford Handbook of Politics in Muslim Societies), scholars of nonreligion / irreligion (e.g. Annual Review of the Sociology of Religion: Volume 7), Pew Research Center's uses it in own methodology and database (see Pew's methodology and The Palgrave Handbook of Islam in Africa).

- Woodberry, Robert D. (2010). "World Religion Database: Impressive - but Improvable" [39] - "Despite these criticisms, we can appreciate the editors’ achievement in applying a relatively consistent methodology across the world. Furthermore, the WRD estimates are highly correlated with other cross-national estimates of religious distribution, a conclusion supported by an article by Becky Hsu and others." and also "Still, despite my criticisms, I will eagerly use these data in my research. I do not know of any better data available on such a broad scale and am amazed at the editors’ ability to provide even tentative estimates of religious distribution by province and people group."

- Brierley, Peter. (2010). "World Religion Database: Detail Beyond Belief!" [40] - "The WRD is a truly remarkable resource for researchers, Christian workers, church leaders, religious academics, and any others wanting to see how the various religions of the world impact both the global and the local scenes. It is always easy to criticize any grand compilation of statistical material by looking at the detail in one particular corner and declaring, "That number doesn't seem right." The sheer scope of this database, however, is incredible, and the fact that it exists and can be extended even further and updated as time goes forward in the framework of a respected university deserves huge applause for those responsible for it. Praise where praise is due, even if I am about to critique it."

If it is good for demographers it certainly good for Wikipedia. Ramos1990 (talk) 22:08, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

P-Makoto,

In my opinion the outcome of the previous community consensus should not be altered, and Firefangledfeather's closing summary should be kept, with its reference to WP:PARTISAN, or WP:BIASED, and WP:CRYSTAL, and just altered to add your new sentence, possibly also adding Stewart's conclusion that the source lacks the methodological rigor required to provide valid research results, and a reference to the fact that these results systematically overestimate Christianity (as found by all the critical papers quoted above) and underestimate other religions (as found by Hsu et al.). Regarding WP:BIASED, I think that it is important to keep it because in my view it is quite clear that the source is biased; for me, the relationship that it has with the OW-JP, its origins as a Christian missionary project, the fact that it is edited by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (which, by the way, is itself directly related to Billy Graham and his Lausanne Movement), are all indicators of a clear bias, and in any case, this is clearly stated by Reynal-Querol & Montalvo where they wrote we realize the data is biased towards Christian religion.

Moreover, in his essay, p. 459, Stewart further explains that Barrett directly addresses and emphatically rejects what he calls the “folly of triumphalism” ... Despite this assurance, Barrett’s occupation as a missionary, stated belief that all of the world would be evangelized by the end of the twentieth century, and, not least of all, his development of a “theology of Christian enumeration” that explains the purpose of his work as helping “the followers of Christ to discern at what points to commit their resources in order to implement their commission” serve to make this, probably, the least debatable criticism ... The particular strength of this last critique might also possibly explain why, in his recent dismissal of the critiques commonly levied against Barrett’s work, Johnson [of the GCTS] elects not to address the accusation of triumphalism..

The previous quote adds to both the problem of non-neutrality, bias, of the source and to the question of the scope of the source. In his own words, Barrett theorised a "theology of Christian enumeration", not of Pentecostal enumeration. Furthermore, Stewart on p. 460 is clear when he writes that: To describe Barrett’s enumeration of Pentecostals – let alone of Christians as a whole – in the first edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia as confusing would be a drastic understatement. Guiding the entire work is Barrett’s conceptualization of Christianity ...; and again on p. 466: Barrett's ... collection techniques in order to enumerate Pentecostals and other Christians around the world. Therefore, Barret's project affects Christianity as a whole, and not merely Pentecostalism. Stewart clept it "Pentecostal growth paradigm" apparently because such a paradigm was ... adopted and more widely disseminated by Pentecostal clergy and scholars – mostly in the Global North ... (p. 458). This is probably a reference to the OW and its affiliated networks; I remind that the book Operation World (2010, p. 25) declares that ... the World Christian Encyclopedia and a handful of other resources are at the heart of this information ....

Of course you have not proposed to classify the source as "generally unreliable" or "deprecated", I did not mean that, but I would propose it if any other users agreed, since this would help stem the ongoing spam of this source throughout Wikipedia (which has continued despite its addition to the perennial sources' list last year). Æo (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Considering the discussion here, which is very quite long, I concur with the original 2022-2023 consensus against depreciation of these sources. They are definitely used by academic researchers and the sources presented do verify that they are good for use in Wikipedia. Robert D. Woodberry's confirmation of Hsu findings of general reliability across 4 datasets are certainly notable here as multiple sources converge on overall reliability. Keeping in mind that there are many problems with all sources including census data (WRD methodology states that only about half of the world's censuses even ask about religion and that this is declining further) certainly means that many other sources need to be used by default. This is verifiable in the US, which has nothing on religion for so many decades. And numerous other nations have removed such questions for privacy and expense reasons.

I do see room for BOTH (World Christian Encyclopedia and World Religion Database/World Christian Database) and numerous other databases to be used on Wikipedia. After all, these are all just estimates at the end and the Pentecostal and Atheism examples here exhibit the need to use multiple sources to make some sense of adherents (upper and lower estimates). I will say that polls, surveys, etc also fail to predict verifiable things like political elections [41] so I can only imagine the difficulty in religion demographics.

I think a good median on the perennial table is to keep the wording as is minus "The methodology of these sources has been questioned as WP:PARTISAN and WP:CRYSTAL." since these pass on comparison with multiple other datasets. Twice with this noticeboard by the same proposer AEO. The wording would sound neutral, very basic, inclusive, and not too specific. "Preference" does not mean "removal" or "prohibited". It allows coexistence of sources. Thus I think this is reasonable. desmay (talk) 01:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

After all, these are all just estimates – No, there are precise statistics from censuses and national surveys, possibly integrated by other good-quality statistics from independent neutral survey organisations, for most countries. We do not need speculative projections from non-neutral organisations of Christian evangelism. But this has already been widely discussed. The WCE/WRD/WCD are regularly spammed on Wikipedia and this cause a lot of nuisance for editors in the field of religion statistics like me, Erp and others (see here, here, etc.).

... polls, surveys, etc also fail to predict verifiable things like political elections so I can only imagine the difficulty in religion demographics – Actually, I think that a cultural identifier such as religion is much more verifiable and measurable than fleeting opinions such as political votes.

Twice with this noticeboard by the same proposer AEO – I did not open the 2022-2023 discussion myself, and, in any case, what is the problem? I also opened a discussion about WP:STATISTA last year, which resulted in its categorisation as WP:GUNREL. I read a lot, I noticed that the WCE/WRD/WCD were still being spammed throughout Wikipedia, I found new evidence of their problematic nature (the new papers presented in this discussion), and therefore I decided to open this new discussion. Æo (talk) 02:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Taking in what has been said so far, at this time, for WRD/WCD/WCE, I am inclined to support user desmay's recommendations. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 05:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Indo-Pakistani war of 1947–1948#RfC on what result is to be entered against the result parameter of the infobox

An argument is being made that all sources listed in the article reporting a result that is a stalemate/inconclusive are passing mentions that fail WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Further input at the RfC would be appreciated. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Night attack at Târgoviște

There is a discussion at DRN about Night attack at Târgoviște, and the question is whether page 42 of the following source, in Turkish,

https://acikerisim.kku.edu.tr/xmlui/bitstream/handle/20.500.12587/15704/419132.pdf

supports the claim that the Ottoman army consisted of 15,000 men.

Notifying @Super Dromaeosaurus and Keremmaarda:.

Robert McClenon (talk) 15:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

yes, the source is Turkish Keremmaarda (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The nationality of the source has nothing to do with whether it's reliable or not. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The relevant section (translates by Google) appear to be:(bolding mine)
Fatih Sultan Mehmet personally went on a Wallachian expedition to punish Vlad the Impaler. Meanwhile, since the voivodes of Wallachia and Moldavia were at odds with each other, the voivode of Moldavia supported the Ottomans. The Ottoman army of 15 thousand people gathered in Plovdiv and moved towards Wallachia from there. The Sultan crossed the Danube from the Black Sea and reached Vidin with 25 galleys and 150 transport ships. Meanwhile, the Ottoman army under the command of Mahmut Pasha entered the lands of Wallachia, and Vlad the Impaler did not come across them. Evrenosoğlu Ali Bey started to raid the lands of Wallachia with his raider forces. Vlad the Impaler was applying the guerrilla warfare method. He even aimed to kill the Sultan with a night raid, but he was not successful in this. As a result, the army of Vlad the Impaler, who started to flee, could not hold on against the Ottoman raiders and was dispersed. Vlad the Impaler took refuge in Hungary. Because the Hungarian king did not want to open relations with the Ottomans. He imprisoned Vlad the Impaler. Thereupon, Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror declared Vlad's younger brother Radul the voivode of Fflak. After Radul's death in 1479, Vlad came to Wallachia again, but he was unsuccessful. He was killed two years later by one of his own slaves.
Which is referenced to "Osmanlı Ansiklopedisi, İstanbul–1996, C. 2., s. 73–74". -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The work is a doctoral thesis, which would fall under WP:SCHOLARSHIP, and appears to have at least a few citations. [42] -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Per my comment at ANI, while the source describes an Ottoman army of 15,000 men, it does not mention Targoviste or the year 1462. Even if this source does refer to the correct event, given that the source refers to a force of 15,000 in Plovdiv and then mentions a separate force under Mahmut Pasha, it is not clear that we can infer that 15,000 corresponds to the number of Ottoman troops present at Targoviste. I'm surprised that this is being discussed at DRN given the ongoing ANI case. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Rosguill - Thank you for calling my attention to the WP:ANI proceeding. I have closed the DRN case as pending in another forum. Survivors can discuss at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Actually I think it's even weaker than that. 15,000 men at Poldiv, but the article makes clear there was raiding and skirmishing going on. So there can't have been the same number later on when the night attack occured. I'm also concerned by the comment above, as it doesn't show good judgement on the reliability of sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The other numbers given are not those of the night attack. These are the armies he gathered when he was going to go on a campaign. Keremmaarda (talk) 22:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes he gathered 15,000 people for the campaign, not those present at the night attack. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:03, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Also having read a few comments at DRN, and looked into the author İbrahim Akyol, they are a professor in Turkish language and literature not history. The thesis is similarly about language and culture not history.
I don't believe that it's reliable for the specific claim, and I don't believe the work is reliable for exceptional historical claims (one's that are in conflict with other academic works by professional historians). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

My own assessment is largely along these lines... If the thesis was about political/military history I would likely support inclusion with attribution but it appears to be largely tangential information. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:48, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

A non-subject expert disagreeing with subject experts should always be handled with caution, false balance could get involved. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, RSN editors. I have closed the DRN case as being discussed at WP:ANI. I see that the conclusion is that the source in question is not reliable in this context. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you all for your help, I had stopped replying in the dispute resolution pages as the other party appears to be heading towards a topic ban, however now we have consensus for removing the source too. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Rosenblatt's Deans Database at https://lawdeans.com/.

This popped up in my feed this morning, and my immediate instinct is to add it as a reference to just about every American law school dean article, since it seems rather nicely put together. I wanted to run it by this noticeboard first to make sure that this seems reasonable. BD2412 T 16:05, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

If the question is whether this source is reliable—a law school—the Mississippi College School of Law in Jackson, Mississippi—hosts the RDD. An academic host generally prompts confidence.

On the other hand, the message on the home page apparently indicates that Jim Rosenblatt, emeritus dean of the Mississippi College School of Law, runs the website himself. He asks for people to send any updated information for your law school or law school dean to me [i. e. him] directly. It's not clear if the site has other staff, such as folks fact checking and doing editorial review (I do recognize that the home page indicates corrections are made when new information arises). And since the statistics are about current law deans, the Biography of living persons policy indicates we must tread very cautiously about what sources are appropriate. This is no judgment on the quality of RDD—I get a good impression from it, too—but even very reputable self-published subject matter experts are subject to BLP policy.

Perhaps its aggregate data could be cited (e. g. "According to Rosenblatt's Deans Database, 43.2% of law deans at schools in the United States are women"), treating Rosenblatt as a subject matter expert for such, since that is not about specific living persons? But citing RDD for specific persons is something I would be cautious about.

Additionally, adding this source to every American law school dean article might verge on inadvertently seeming to other editors like one is spamming, or promoting the source. Even if it were concluded that RDD has sufficient review processes and is reliable for law dean articles, it would make more sense to cite the database as one goes about edits, rather than mass-populating it across the Wiki. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 17:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

There is so little information there about how the data are compiled, curated, revised, etc. that it's impossible to provide an affirmative answer, especially if the intent is to use this as a source in BLPs. What have other publications said about it? ElKevbo (talk) 22:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

That is a good question. From a rather superficial search, I find that according to Google Scholar, it is cited in about a dozen scholarly articles (excluding one by Rosenblatt himself), such as:

• Patricia E. Salkin, The Role of the Dean in Ensuring a Sustainable Law School: Everything Comes Down to What I Learned in Land Use Planning and Sustainable Development Law, 46 U. Tol. L. Rev. 375 (2014-2015)
• Susan Handley Duncan, Karen Lott, and Catherine Pettis, Law School Dean Wanted: A Woman for All Reasons, 65 Vill. L. Rev. 1083 (2020)
• Laura M. Padilla, The Black-White Paradigm's Continuing Erasure of Latinas: See Women Law Deans of Color, 99 Denv. U. L. Rev. 683 (2022).

In books in print, it is cited in:

• John C. Alessio, The Intentional Dean: A Guide to the Academic Deanship (2017), p. 204.
• George Justice, How to Be a Dean (2019), p. 87.
• Mari Koerner, The Successful Dean: Thoughtful Strategies and Savvy Tips for Today's Evolving Leadership (2020), p. 42.

So far as I can tell, all reference to the site is as an authority, and no critical analysis of its quality has been conducted. BD2412 T 01:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

AP News with plagiarism

So if you don’t check the news often (like me), you might have missed it. Earlier this morning, the Associated Press (AP News) ran a story where they stated the following: Harvard president's resignation highlights new conservative weapon against colleges: plagiarism (via post on 𝕏). The news article’s headline today originally was titled Harvard president quits: Claudine Gay resignation highlights new conservative weapon, which has since been changed to be titled Plagiarism charges downed Harvard’s president. A conservative attack helped to fan the outrage.

This isn’t an RfC as one isn’t warranted, given AP isn’t a source on the plagiarism article. Per very clear Wikipedia consensus combined with actual academic study consensus, AP News is widely considered to be accurate. That said, given the development today, I think we need a discussion about whether or not AP should be considered unreliable on the topic of plagiarism (i.e. no future usage on that article only).

Several sources have posted articles on this AP News headline as well: Fox News (considered unreliable), Daily Wire (considered unreliable), Independent Journal Review (No discussions on WP:RSP), New American (considered unreliable), Pipa News (Nothing at WP:RSP), Disclose.tv (On 𝕏), Elon Musk commenting after the AP News post on 𝕏 linked above was community noted.

If you haven’t followed the Harvard President’s topic over the last month, there is a lot of articles (from RS sources) about the plagiarism. Here are the ones linked in that Community Note: PBS, Axios, NY Times, The Hill, Harvard University.

Given the weird article from AP News, I personally think we (Wikipedia) should consider them unreliable on the sole topic of plagiarism, as they seem to be the only RS source considering it to be political. Even sources known to be on the American “political left” (NY Times is an example) don’t make it political and just say she was wrong. Again, this is not an RfC as AP is not currently even a source on the plagiarism article, but the discussion is better to have now for the future. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

You don't consider the Claudine Gay situation to be "political"? Here's an RS, Politico, with the headline yesterday "Republicans claim victory for Harvard president’s resignation". – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I do. However, even Politico says, “Republican lawmakers welcomed Harvard University president Claudine Gay’s resignation after weeks of calling for her to step down over her response to antisemitism on campus — and her testimony on the topic at a fiery House hearing in December. That is about the antisemitism remarks. That aspect is political. Until the AP News article today, I had yet to see RS about the plagiarism (not antisemitism) to be political. That is what I mean. AP News made the plagiarism independent of the antisemitism political, which was a first. That is what this discussion is for. Ignore the President Gay/antisemitism controversy for this discussion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the AP article has it completely right. NY Times calls it a the plagiarism a "proxy fight", and Politico (different article than the above) sees it as well. This was the work of Christopher Rufo, who used the idea that Gay committed plagiarism to erode faith in an Ivy League university. Time magazine refers to this as Rufo's Alarming and Deceptive Crusade. Rufo has admitted to all of this. "We launched the Claudine Gay plagiarism story from the Right. The next step is to smuggle it into the media apparatus of the Left, legitimizing the narrative to center-left actors who have the power to topple her. Then squeeze." (tweeted on December 19). – Muboshgu (talk) 19:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Muboshgu's summary of this. I think AP News remains reliable, including for the topic of plagiarism. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I, too, have no problem with APs reliability regarding plagiarism. In my view, this entire matter has been thoroughly politicized and weaponized from the very beginning. Cullen328 (talk) 19:37, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good y'all! Amid the political dispute then, I thought it best to bring it up here at least. Consensus remains that AP is reliable in all topics. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a good example of why we disregard headlines... Especially in the modern era when multiple titles can be A-B tested in real time. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

As originally published the article read: "On X, formerly Twitter, he wrote “SCALPED,” as if Gay was a trophy of violence, invoking a gruesome practice taken up by white colonists who sought to eradicate Native Americans." Later on "and also used by some tribes against their enemies." was added. Whether this was changed because of the ridicule on X or someone at AP independently realising what ahistorical nonsense this was would be interesting to know. The authors would have done well to glance at Scalping. —Simon Harley (Talk). 10:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

That isn't "ahistorical nonsense," both statements are true one just has more context. What the heck are you talking about? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, headlines are unreliable. It should also follow—in my opinion—that social media posts by an organisation promoting an article are unreliable. Only the article itself is what we should be using for factual claims. — Bilorv (talk) 11:55, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't find the AP article weird. I see nothing in it to make us consider it unreliable. The headline and tweet is never the source, so I see no problem here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

As a general and unfortunate principle, anything can be political - e.g. Climate Change. I don't see anything exceptional about AP's report. BilledMammal (talk) 13:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There's usually a shortcut for all instances, and it's true in this case WP:HEADLINES. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to reinforce what others are saying - a headline isn't a source, and reputable organizations routinely tweak headlines for a variety of reasons. Absolutely no reason to consider discouraging use of AP on any topic as proposed in OP. VQuakr (talk) 17:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Can blackpast.org be considered a reliable source for the purpose of BLP, including Claudine Gay?

There was a debate whether or not blackpast.org can be used to verify biographical information on the talk page for Claudine Gay (in this case, regarding her DOB)

Why it matters: Blackpast has some information that is otherwise very difficult to verify with reliable sources, particularly for academics and other people noteable in their respective fields.

The primary counterargument: A significant amount of content is originally submitted by users, making it potentially user-generated

The Arguments in Favor of Blackpast:

-They are considered reliable by other generally reliable sources

-the founder is considered an authority in his field

-there are internal review processes that meet or exceed the standards expected of most news papers

(-the specific entry in question is written by an expert in their field)

What is the reliability of blackpast.org in such cases?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

FortunateSons (talk) 22:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Specifically for the purpose of verifying Claudine Gay's date of birth on the Claudine Gay page, I would go with Option 1: generally reliable. The existence of an editorial review process run by the site administrator, and the fact that the entry in question is written by an expert in the field of Black history (Malik Simba, a trained professor) lends confidence in the source. One gets the impression that as a scholar, Simba conducted research to confirm that date of birth (perhaps interviewing Claudine Gay, or verifying with a birth record), and in light of the review process, his article on Claudine Gay received editorial review. As such, for the purpose of verifying Claudine Gay's date of birth, this source is independent, not self-published, and reliable. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 02:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much. May I assume that this also generally applies to articles from blackpast.org unless there is an indication otherwise? FortunateSons (talk) 10:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I think my answer is sufficiently clear for the purposes. I have refrained from weighing in on all of BlackPast, since it's not necessary for answering your question. Reliable source questions are answered in context. My answer is that my sense is that this article from BlackPast, authored by Malik Simba, can be considered generally reliable for the topic of Claudine Gay. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 13:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you FortunateSons (talk) 13:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I would say its likely reliable for that information but would caution against including any BLP info which can only be found in a single source in an article outside of ABOUTSELF. Sorry if "reliable but don't include without a second source" is the most frustrating possible answer you could possibly have gotten, I know I used to hate getting it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you.

There is no (significant) issue verifying the year of birth with a reliable source, but finding the actual DOB is rather difficult because the DOB of a former president of a university is not really printed outside of niche or denigrated sources. Could I use the general sources for the year and then use blackpast.org for the month and day? FortunateSons (talk) 10:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

So then just use YOB. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I would assess biographies here on a case by case basis (so I guess option 2 in general) and that this would be a reliable biography based on the author and other factors so I think it would be fine to use (option 2 for this specific use). I'm not sure I see a reason to seek an additional source for a non-contentious fact. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

From what is written above, I'd say WP:DOB might be reasonably held to apply. We have a year, easily sourced, which is almost always all that is of any significance for an academic, and thus all the article really needs, and having to look to a single possibly questionable source for an exact date suggests to me that we needn't include that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

She is (for now) so well known that I do not believe that she meets the description of a borderline or relatively unknown person. In addition, there are other sources, they are just depreciated and therefore cannot be used.

Therefore, I will add the date as the source is considered reliable in this case. FortunateSons (talk) 12:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:DOB. The standard for inclusion of personal information of living persons is higher than mere existence of a reliable source that could be verified. What encyclopaedic purpose exactly is being met by including an exact date of birth for someone known in a field where such information is not considered of significance, and thus not generally discussed? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

If you are posing a question about whether this information is due (as in due weight), that seems to be a separate question from whether or not Malik Simba's article for BlackPast is reliable. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 13:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not 'posing a question'. I'm pointing out that WP:BLP directly addresses the inclusion of exact dates, and that being reliably sourced is not on its own sufficient grounds for inclusion. This is a direct response to FortunateSons stating that they intend to include it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:12, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

By that logic, almost all DOB should be removed. It is generally significant insofar as people use Wikipedia for information, such as her current age. Therefore, there is no reasonable argument against inclusion according to DOB and BLP. FortunateSons (talk) 13:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to argue that WP:BLP policy stating that we "err on the side of caution" regarding including exact dates of birth etc be changed, you are welcome to do so. But not here. Meanwhile, that policy stands. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think it should be changed, I just don’t think it is an issue with the inclusion of the exact DOB here and not at all most every other page FortunateSons (talk) 14:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't give a damn about whether you personally 'think it is an issue'. I have pointed out the policy, and you have given no policy-based justification whatsoever to include the exact date. The onus being on those wishing to include content obtaining consensus to do so is absolutely fundamental to the way Wikipedia works. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The benefit is knowing the exact age, which can be useful, for example insofar as it is included within news articles. FortunateSons (talk) 14:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The people who have an exact DOB without an apparent reason including the other involved people Elise Stefanik, Christopher Rufo, her cousin Roxane Gay or her academic advisor Gary King. If you believe they all shouldn’t, than that is a perspective that you can advocate for, but it is clearly standard practice to include exact DOBs. FortunateSons (talk) 14:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Since you clearly haven't read WP:OTHERCONTENT, I suggest you do so. And I don't need to 'advocate' for existing policy. Not for WP:BLP. Not for WP:ONUS. Not for any of it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

You are right, I hadn’t.

Per WP:OTHERCONTENT, While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument; an entire comment should not be dismissed because it includes a comparative statement like this. While comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, makes a much more credible case, if the review does not pre-date policy changes that affect the material.

Good Articles featuring a DOB include Jeff Bezos, Guido Imbens, Richard Goldstone and many others.

Featured articles include Ben Affleck, Katy Perry, Buzz Aldrin, Liz Truss and others.

So, this is a clear indication that inclusion of a DOB is not generally an issue (except in cases of borderline significance or complaint, which are not apparent).

Therefore, there needs to be an argument in favour of including it, which is

Age is important for people including academics and public persons, which Claudine Gay is. Outside of public discourse, a use case may include news articles, many of which are quoted in the article. FortunateSons (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This is not an argument, it is an assertion. I don't see a coherent argument in your posts above, just repeated assertions. Exact birth dates are of trivial significance in almost all biographies; with long-dead people there's no harm in including that kind of trivia, but with living people there's a good reason not to, namely, protecting the privacy of individuals. Nothing you've said gives an argument of even vaguely similar weight for including the information, even if it could be reliably sourced. --JBL (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Therefore, I believe that the standard described in WP:BLP and WP:DOB is met. FortunateSons (talk) 15:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

More WP:OTHERCONTENT. You have still provided precisely zero evidence to support any claim that Gay's exact date of birth is 'important'. Per WP:ONUS, please explain why you think her exact date of birth merits inclusion, beyond the fact that you have sources for it. As of now WP:ONUS has not been met. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I quoted WP:OTHERCONTENT to strengthen my arguments, with, to quote WP:OTHERCONTENT, a much more credible case.

Per WP:ONUS, I explained that including it is standard (use in articles considered excellent by Wikipedia), that it is information generally considered important (proof: use of her age in news articles) and that there is no argument for exclusion (per WP:DOB). Thereby, I have met the standard set forth by WP:ONUS. So, now you have to provide an argument why it shouldn’t be. FortunateSons (talk) 16:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Repeating exactly the same poor arguments you have already given doesn't constitute 'proof'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Can we move this to the actual talk page where it belongs? FortunateSons (talk) 16:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

How about no? This is an ongoing discussion, and it would be far better, given that even the initial question as to the reliability of blackpast.org for the DoB seems not to have been resolved, to see whether anyone else has anything to say. There is no urgency over this, and most noticeboards leave discussions open far longer. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:23, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure; just to clarify, what would an argument for the inclusion of a DOB for an academic or politician valid in your eyes? FortunateSons (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

A very good argument for inclusion of an exact DOB in a biography would be if either (1) there is something specifically birthday-related in the biography, or (2) if there were something specifically age-related in the biography (youngest such-and-such, or whatever). Of course it would be easy to source the exact date in these cases because it would inevitably come up in sources that discuss that aspect of the subject's life. These circumstances are rather rare -- but that's obvious, exact birthdays are almost always unimportant (imagine you found out that you were actually born 16 hours earlier or later than your parents had told you -- what would change?). --JBL (talk) 00:31, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense, if that is the standard, then the DOB should not be included here.

Maybe that’s a dumb newcomer question, but why is it then included in so many other BLPs? FortunateSons (talk) 00:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

If a subject complains about our inclusion of their date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year, provided that there is a reliable source for it. This is the standard for including the specific date, which is met (no complaint, not borderline). As far as I can see, there is no other consideration except sourcing, which is the question at hand. FortunateSons (talk) 13:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I am preferably looking to include a full DOB (which I believe is permissible under WP:DOB). The current sourcing is using logic from 2 ages in articles with some distance between them, which isn’t great as there is an appropriate source with blackpast.org FortunateSons (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable possibly deprecate. This site strikes me as very dubious. A quick look at some of the entries raises some red flags as well. For example, this entry on the Nation of Islam makes no mention at all of the group's notable antisemitism. The monetized nature of the site, where individuals, groups, and companies can "sponsor" entries (like the LDS church), also raises questions. Looking at their rosy LDS page, it would seem coverage may be influenced by sponsor. I see no statement about editorial independence or anything comparable. Entries on figures like Jay-Z read like press release puffery. If you can't find a better source, I would advise not including it in English Wikipedia. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

  With a Quick Look, I agree with your concerns regarding the articles in question, and the one on the Nation of Islam is very concerning. However, most other articles appear to be fine; is there a specific issue with the article on Claudine Gay? FortunateSons (talk) 18:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to note that WP:DOB requires that dates of birth have been widely published by reliable sources. Unless it's from an ABOUTSELF statement it's best to leave it out unless it's found in multiple sources.
Also this shouldn't be an RFC as it's hasn't been discussed before and an RFC isn't required for this one issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This was not intended to be an RfC, just a general discussion using the same weighting. Did I use the wrong template? FortunateSons (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussions don't involve voting (Option 1, Option 2, etc). All you need to open a thread is a question, and it's best if it's one about a specific context. So "Is this[link] entry at Blackopast.org reliable for Claudine Gay birth date?" would have been a better setup. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thank you, will do it the next time. Would “Is [source] reliable for information about [person]?” be a an acceptable format when discussing multiple articles, or do I have to ask separately? FortunateSons (talk) 17:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

"Is [source] reliable for [specific type of information]?" Would be fine, it's just better to be as specific as possible. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 18:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The Perspective articles are likely reliable if possibly primary, as would be the hosted primary documents and transcripts of speeches. The biography entries I'm unsure of, and they would be a teritary source. There is some amount of user generated content going on, but I'm unable to tell exactly how that works. They do state sources, so tracking those down and using them instead could work. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the user-generated contest is still reviewed through an editorial process:

https://www.blackpast.org/frequently-asked-questions-about-blackpast-org/

The criteria for submitting Perspective articles is more restricted. The contributor must possess a specialized academic knowledge or an extensive personal familiarity with the subject of the article.

''How are BlackPast.org entries and articles evaluated?

All submissions by contributors are reviewed by the website director and on occasion by members of the BlackPast.org Advisory Board. Each entry or article is also reviewed by copy editors to ensure they are grammatically and stylistically acceptable.

Does that provide enough information for an informed decision? FortunateSons (talk) 17:48, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The first part you're quoting is about Perspective articles, not biography entries. The biography entries could be written by anyone. The from their How to write for Blackpast.org page Our contributors are in three broad categories: academic scholars, those who hold a faculty appointment in a two or four year college or a university; student scholars, those who are currently students in a two or four year college or university; and independent scholars, those who are at least 18 years of age and who have good research and writing skills.
Also from the same page All BlackPast.org articles are vetted for historical accuracy and copy-edited before they appear. BlackPast.org reserves the right to refuse any submitted entry that does not meet its standards for accuracy and objectivity. (all bolded in the original).
I would expect from that that the biography entries are reliable, but are still a WP:TERTIARY source when secondary are preferred. Also this still wouldn't overcome the "widely published" requirement for the specific date of birth -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

So, just to clarify: reliable but tertiary, so I would need more (how many?) reliable sources to include the DOB? FortunateSons (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The requirement is widely published, I would take it as a sentiment rather than apply a hard limit to it. If you can find enough sources to satisfy you that that requirement is met, then it's met. Editors discretion and good judgement is encouraged. Other editors could disagree, in which case discussion is always a good thing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you FortunateSons (talk) 18:19, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable, per Bloodofox, cites like that are prone to citogenesis. – SJ + 19:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Kotaku source for GA

Article in question - Please Hold to My Hand I am reviewing a GAN and amoung the sources used is a Kotaku review from 2023. The WP:VGRS says that Kotaku from 2023 onwards is on a case by case basis. I looked at the article nothing jumped out as being AI but given that its a GA I thought it best to bring it up here. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 08:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There's a by-line and the author seems to have written for The New York Times, Vice and Wired. The article has a lot of concrete claims about the plot of the episode and comparisons to the video game so if it was AI-generated I'd expect it to be easily detected by someone who's watched the episode. — Bilorv (talk) 12:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I would consider Kotaku a marginal source, the there is some advice on the source at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources. However so in the Metro which is also used in that article. Ultimately in my opinion both are reliable for how they are used in context. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay I'll continue the review, thanks Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Land Transport Guru and SG Trains

Why it matters?: LTG is a self-published source, as stated by previous discussions regarding it. And as me, @ZKang123 and other users opined (I will not mention their usernames), it is an unreliable source. It has been used in multiple articles, and there was a period of time where exit information (a no-go, as it treads into travel guide territory) was added with LTG as a source. I mentioned SGTrains as it is a similar source, albeit more reliable in my opinion.

But my justification is now over, so here are the options

Option 1: Reliable

Option 2: Situational (it will be good if you can lean towards 1 or 3 if voting Option 2)

Option 3: Unreliable

Option 4: Deprecate

Brachy08 _(Talk) 08:50, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Land Transport Guru is clearly unreliable, I would limit this discussion to just that source rather than to try and shoehorn SG Trains in their as well (they're also most likely unreliable but it helps to have separate discussion especially if as you say they are of differing reliability). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 09:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Option 3. Both source are clearly unreliable. Search through both usages, majortive are used to source materials that are unsuitable for Wikipedia regardless of sourcing, while for some like #52 on East West MRT line are replaceable with similar reporting such as this by The Straits Times. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:29, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Previous discussions in case anyone is interested: September 2023, December 2023 -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I might lean towards deprecating, but I'm fine with Option 3. Both LTG and SGTrains are user-based blogs and wikis.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:58, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Using unreliable/semi reliable source on a contentious topic

I would like to explore the possibility of using a semi reliable/unreliable source like WP:TOI in a contentious topics such as Ram mandir, especially in the controversies section of it. I got into a disagreement with an editor who used it ans I don't want to invoke 1RR. Thanks. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 12:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Always down to explore, what would be the rationalization? That Times of India publishes a significant POV even if it isn't super reliable? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The article is not under 1RR. Times of India is semi-reliable according to WP:TOI, and it can be used for statements which are simply undisputed or unlikely to be disputed. Ironically, you are asking me to avoid using TOI for the statements that they have reported against the ruling Indian government[43] contrary to WP:TOI which urges against using the TOI articles that have "bias in favor of the Indian government". Abhishek0831996 (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Additional considerations apply to Times of India, specifically bias towards the current government of India and undisclosed promotional reporting. If neither is involved then it is still generally reliable (questions could still be raised about specific articles, but that is true of all sources). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

An author of a book on the movie - self published but SME?

An author of a book on a old box-office movie has a blog (wordpress) and a twitter feed. The author has tweeted that a member of the movie's cast has died. Can I cite the tweet as a source for this SME in the cast member's web page? At this time, no other media sources exist for a citation. DarkStarHarry (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

No, because that still falls under WP:BLPSPS. Even if we were to think the source is likely telling the truth, BLP extends for a short while after death. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 18:48, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

So even though the author (whose book has been cited several times in Wikipedia's entry on the movie) is apparently an SME, we cannot attribute their twitter feed as a source for the information? Do we have to wait for another source to quote that author in saying the person has died? DarkStarHarry (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

"Quoting his twitter feed" is not the only way for this news to come out, and indeed, I see a number of other sources already pointing out the claim (yes, I've figured who you are talking about), just not ones that meet our requirements for reliable sources. Death hoaxes are common, and it is to our interest to take extra care that we do not propagate them. I expect we'll see coverage in reliable sources wtihin 24 hours; patience is good at this time. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a problem that has come up before, but no self-published source (that isn't from the subject themselves) can be used in a BLP and that extends to the recently deceased. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

And if the subject themselves posts that they are recently deceased, we should approach that with a wee bit of caution as well. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 19:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that a usable source has now been found, and we don't have to be concerned any more. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)