Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions

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Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Arbitration enforcement archives

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Greggens

Greggens topic banned for one month from all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Also topic banned for six months from topics involving Elizabeth Warren, broadly construed. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:15, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Greggens

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:21, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Greggens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2#Discretionary_sanctions_(1932_cutoff) and WP:BLPDS :
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

18 January Added lengthy entry on Elizabeth Warren to "List of impostors" after being warned that future edits in this vein would result in an AE filing
17 January Does not listen to editors explaining policy to him, instead declaring that it doesn't matter what the sources say, because Either one is an impostor or one is not. In this case, she clearly fits the definition of impostor. Why can't we call a ♠ a "spade?"
17 January When this edit is reverted and challenged, declares that based on the reports from the above-named sources, it seems clear that, by definition, Elizabeth Warren is indeed an impostor, for the same reasons that Rachel Dolezal is an impostor and that It should also be noted, BTW, that even to this date, she has yet to have her DNA tested for Native American ancestry, to settle the questions once and for all.
17 January Added Category:Impostors to the BLP of Elizabeth Warren

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions for American politics and biographies of living persons here.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This user is apparently deeply convinced that Elizabeth Warren is an impostor, and absolutely insistent that Wikipedia must factually describe her as an impostor. This is despite the fact that reliable sources do not do so, and thus we cannot. They have come up with a million and one excuses and demands, and have ignored multiple editors explaining to them why they cannot do what they seek to do. I am asking that this editor be topic-banned indefinitely from anything have to do with Elizabeth Warren, as their edits are contrary to basic content policies and are wasting the time of other editors. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified here.

Discussion concerning Greggens

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Greggens

Recently, one of my good faith edits has been reverted based on one user's opinion of what constitutes a "violation" of Wikipedia policy. User: NorthBySouthBaranof has been telling me lately that Elizabeth Warren does not belong in Category:Impostors based on his/her interpretation of WP:SYNTH. While I respect this person's point of view on the matter, I have not ignored what he/she or any other editors have told me about this subject. I have merely offered rebuttals, listing reasons why I believe my original edit adding the Warren article to "Impostors" was not a violation of policy. The edit in question was based partly on information written in sources already cited in the article, and partly on common sense definitions of the word "impostor." NorthBySouthBaranof's opinion is based solely on personal interpretation of policy, not on concrete fact. For example, this user claims that putting the article in the Impostors category would be inappropriate because "No reliable source here calls her an impostor." Since when does the media have to use a term on a given politician before Wikipedians can have permission to use that exact same term on that exact same politician?

For the record, I have not attempted to restore the disputed edit; rather, I have sought consensus as to what should be done. Also, I have not made any edits to any page which I have been explicitly told not to edit. If I believed that an edit I was about to make was against Wikipedia policy, I would not make that edit.

So far, the only comments that I see are from those involved with the "Impostor?" discussion on Talk:Elizabeth Warren. By rule, results concerning me are only to be made by uninvolved admins.

These charges are frivolous, unfounded, and unwarranted. Please rescind them. If you don't want me to categorize this article under "Impostors," then fine. I won't put the article in that category. No need to impose any sanctions. Greggens (talk) 04:03, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Greggens

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Unless any admin objects, I am preparing a one month topic ban for Greggens from American Politics and six months from Elizabeth Warren. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:33, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

KU2018

Blocked as a sockpuppet. Discussion about enforcing discretionary sanctions can continue elsewhere if desired. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:27, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning KU2018

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:47, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: KU2018 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBAPDS :

(Note Breitbart News is subject to editing restrictions. See Template:Editnotices/Page/Breitbart News

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

January 15, 2018 Removes "Far-right" from the lead, ignoring the hidden comment advising not to do so.
January 19, 2018 Removes "Far-right" from the lead, ignoring the hidden comment advising not to do so.
January 19, 2018 Restores the challenged edit against consensus

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This editor is also repeatedly adding poorly-sourced content to BLP Alex Jones. See recent history and warnings: 1, 2.- Mr X 🖋 13:47, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Despite of multiple warnings and being reviewed at WP:AE, this user continues to insert the same content that violates WP:BLPSOURCES and WP:RS: [1][2][3][4]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[5]

Discussion concerning KU2018

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by KU2018

I first removed the text, which I shouldn't have done. However, I realised when going on to the talk page that I was wrong to do this. Earlier today I put in a compromise - putting the 'far right' label further down the page. This helped restructure the sections of the lead. I did not remove the far right label on the second and third edit, as stated in this request.This was consistent (Breitbart talk archive 3) with the previously agreed consensus as this stated quite vaguely that the far right label could be used in 'some circumstances'. I reverted this once as the text was removed even though it was consistent with the consensus. I did not revert a second time as I was aware that the 1RR was there. I would not have chamged the far right wording if it was against the consensus of the discussion. I will not be editing until monday. KU2018 (talk) 14:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MjolnirPants

It is worth noting that KU2018 had previously agreed to stop pushing for this change to the article, in the face of unanimous opposition and a large opposing consensus. See this edit, dated Jan 15th. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:24, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein:Your proposed TBAN sounds like the best possible solution. I get the impression that KU is not incapable of becoming a very productive editor, but that their involvement in politics has the potential to ruin that. I had been trying to provide some mentorship on their talk page, which seemed to be helping, right up until I saw this report and realized they'd gone back to edit warring at Breitbart. The three months stipulation is a good one, as it gives them the opportunity to resume their primary area of interest within the foreseeable future, provided they demonstrate a good ability to contribute elsewhere. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:49, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dr. Fleischman

While we're on the subject of administrative sanctions... not an AE issue specifically, but KU2018's username, which refers to Kingston University per their user page, appears to be a violation of our username policy. I mentioned this on their user talk, got no response. Their user page raises meatpuppetry-related issues as well, though I see no evidence of bad faith here. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning KU2018

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm of the view that page-level restrictions should be enforced by the administrators who impose them, in this case, Ks0stm (talk · contribs). Sandstein 14:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That being said, the edit-warring to include unreliably sourced WP:BLP material in a US politics-related article, The Young Turks, is immediately actionable. As political advocacy or state propaganda websites, Breitbart and RT.com are not reliable sources for controversial BLP material related to US politics, much like their counterparts on the other side of the ideological spectrum would also not be. Edit-warring such material back in after it was removed is also prohibited. KU2018 has made only 86 edits so far and has only edited controversial US politics-related articles. It is apparent that they lack the Wikipedia editing experience to do so competently and reliably. I intend to impose an indefinite topic ban, to be lifted after they demonstrate at least three months of productive editing in other topic areas. Sandstein 15:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To stop the immediate edit-warring, I have blocked KU2018 for 24 hours as a normal admin action. Sandstein 15:32, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Sandstein. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:36, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused. @Sandstein:, are you suggesting that page level sanctionss should be enforced only by the person who added them? I don't think there is anything in policy that supports such a restriction or that your suggestion reflects current practice. I could of course be wrong. @NeilN: were you agreeing on this point or just on the topic ban? Doug Weller talk 15:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug Weller: I was agreeing with the topic ban. As to the other matter, most page level sanctions should be enforced by any admin. Some custom sanctions can be confusingly worded (I'm guilty of that too) and clarification should come from the admin who added them. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:58, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for being unclear. Although of course any admin may take enforcement action on another admin's sanction, I think that whoever imposes sanctions should also take the responsibility of enforcing them. I don't like it when admins drop a lot of sanctions on pages and then count on others to do the enforcement work. But that's just my view. Sandstein 17:39, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per Doug Weller, I don't believe that admins imposing page-level restrictions should be the only ones to enforce them, though as a practical matter they are often the admins most familiar with the subject and therefore in the best position to assess complaints. Otherwise, Sandstein's suggestion seems good to me. GoldenRing (talk) 15:53, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I will enforce my page level sanctions when I've been asked to do so, but I also think it is often better for an admin who isn't the sanctioning admin on the pages to be the one who does the enforcing. Separation of powers or something like that. No views on this case, but saw it mentioned at ANEW and then thought the meta discussion was worth weighing in on. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:58, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Page level sanctions can be problematic, and I agree with Sandstein in that the admin that imposed special restrictions on a single page should be pinged and given the opportunity to adjudicate the case. It was their restriction, they know *why* it was restricted to begin with while we may not without doing some homework. And yes, often the restriction can be confusing, so the most fair thing for the editor in question is have the person who imposed the restriction do the enforcement, when possible. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:02, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, when KU2018 was pointed towards an RfC on Breitbart which I closed in 2016, they pinged me [6] to complain about the close (to which my obvious answer was "Er, I don't think so"). Black Kite (talk) 16:31, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I support the idea of a indef TBAN in AP2 topic area, reviewable after three months with good consensus-building interactions in other topics, makes sense here. KU2018 appears to be a novice editor and while I can understand the desire to improve articles on American Politics, it is not a good first area to a new editor to start in, by any means, particularly at the present time in real-world politics. Actions here show a problem with consensus building that is better handled if they get better skilled in any of the other non-AP2 topic areas we offer. We don't want to force new editors to learn the ropes (that goes against WP's open spirit) but sometimes we do need to ask them to lurk and learn. --Masem (t) 16:38, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Sandstein's view on which admins can enforce page restrictions is a minority view, and while I can't speak for the Committee as a whole, I would be surprised if we clarified otherwise were that question brought to ARCA. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 17:07, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Checkuser shows a connection to the blocked User:Oscar248, and the edits from Oscar do show the same inclination as those of KU2018's. I'm going to block them indefinitely as a sockpuppet. Courcelles (talk) 01:19, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Greggens

Appeal declined. There is a general feeling among admins that the sanction was if anything too mild. Greggens is urged to be less combative in the sensitive areas of American politics and BLP, and to make more of an effort to listen to the concerns of other editors. Bishonen | talk 11:36, 21 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Greggens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Greggens (talk) 04:26, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Topic bans from the subject of post-1932 politics of the United States and topics involving Elizabeth Warren, "broadly construed," imposed at

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Greggens, logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2018#American_politics_2

Administrator imposing the sanction: NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Notified here

Statement by Greggens

Statements that are crossed out have been withdrawn by the appellant

I have always been a proponent of WP:BLP, adhering to its instructions as best as I possibly can. In fact, one of the things that I enjoy is, when I find something that is unsourced, I find a source to back it up and insert it into the appropriate article. As for my recent attempts at inserting a category or adding to a list, I misread the policy and thought I had all my ducks in a row each time. That's my bad. With respect to these edit attempts, even if there had been no sanctions imposed, I would not have restored the edit, anyway, since there was no consensus in favor of it (I believe that gaining consensus for restoring such reverted edits is one of the things that WP:BLP mentions, in WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE). To prevent future misunderstandings of WP:BLP, I'd be happy to talk with other admins about how to clarify the letter of the policy.

In the meantime, I'll be more careful when exercising the liberties granted to editors, and I'll continue, as I always have, to follow the rules with respect to WP:BLP and also encourage others to do so as well.

On January 17, I added Category:Impostors to the page Elizabeth Warren, after which it was immediately reverted by NorthBySouthBaranof. This same user then posted a vague warning on my talk page, telling me to stop adding unreferenced or poorly referenced information…to articles or any other page on Wikipedia about living (or recently deceased) persons. (diff) I then explained to this user the reasons why I believe my original edit is not a violation of that policy. (diff) I then went to Talk:Elizabeth Warren to open a discussion on the subject to get consensus on what should be done. (diff) NorthBySouthBaranof then claimed that my original edit violated WP:SYNTH. I then assured this user that I would not restore my original edit unless and until consensus in favor of such was established on the article's talk page. (diff)

When NorthBySouthBaranof submitted the request for enforcement, it was only after I had edited another page that wasn't a BLP (or recently-deceased person). It was merely a list article, and even then, my edit followed this user's guidelines for referencing information. (diff) But NorthBySouthBaranof reverted that edit too, and then filed the AE request, accusing me of making a "lengthy" edit on that other page (it was only one line long). Besides that and the original edit I made, the only other diffs that this user provided to make the case against me were excerpts from Talk:Elizabeth Warren. Those excerpts only show me making honest arguments as to why WP:SYNTH does not apply here. (diff) Just expressing honest beliefs on a talk page is not grounds for sanctions.

I refer you now to WP:NOTSYNTH, to demonstrate how NorthBySouthBaranof's interpretation of WP:SYNTH is too broad and ubiquitous, namely, that SYNTH is not: a rigid rule, nor an advocacy tool, nor mere juxtaposition, nor summary, nor explanation, nor presumed, nor a catch-all, nor a policy, nor just any synthesis, nor unpublishably unoriginal, nor ubiquitous. As is says in one section of WP:NOTSYNTH, "If something is obvious to anyone who reads and understands the sources that are supposed to support it, then it's not SYNTH." I was merely stating an obvious conclusion when making my original edit.

In addition, NorthBySouthBaranof exaggerated the extent to which I allegedly ran afoul of policy. (diff) For example, only two editors told me about policy pertaining to BLM and such on the article talk page, and I never once "ignored" anyone in that thread; if anything, I responded to them quite eloquently and civilly. (diff)

As for the imposer of the sanctions, NeilN, he didn't even wait an hour after the enforcement request was filed to impose sanctions, nor did he allow a discussion to take place among other uninvolved editors. (diff) The sanctions imposed are, therefore, too hastily imposed, too severe, and unwarranted.

I request that all sanctions be lifted immediately. ~~In the meantime, I also request a stay of sanctions until a final decision is reached in this matter.~~ Thanks. Greggens (talk) 04:26, 20 January 2018 (UTC) Edited by Greggens (talk) 03:54, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NeilN

Greggens is not new editor. In the past, their editing has almost exclusively focused on American highways, reality shows, and celebrities. This past week they've made edits to a variety of American Politics articles on controversial subjects, all problematic.

This prompted the one month AP topic ban. An editor who has been here since 2014 and with almost 3,500 edits should know better. If they don't, then they need to take the time to see what the community expects in this area. The six month Elizabeth Warren topic ban was prompted by NorthBySouthBaranof's evidence, specifically [7], [8], and [9] coming after discussion. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:54, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This filing at ANI also shows that despite being warned and notified, Greggens does not understand our BLP policy. "Eventually, NorthBySouthBaranof submitted a request for enforcement against me, anyway, but only after I had edited another page that wasn't a BLP (or recently-deceased person). It was merely a list article..." --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I did look at Greggens' edits on other BLPs when developing the sanctions and they seemed for the most part gnome-work and uncontentious. Major expansions like this have minor sourcing issues at first glance but they are understandable. The Warren edits were unusual for this editor as the few major BLP edits Greggens has made are more like this. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:09, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

Greggens, you ignored those warnings by duplicating the objectionable edit on List of impostors. BLP applies to all content about living people anywhere in the encyclopedia. You cannot evade its requirements merely by moving a BLP-violating edit to some different page. This is why myself and other editors have urged you strongly to review our policies before editing in these areas — you clearly do not understand how our policies work. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:08, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"If something is obvious to anyone who reads and understands the sources that are supposed to support it, then it's not SYNTH." The fact that you desperately want it to be "obvious" that Elizabeth Warren is an "impostor" does not make it true. It is not, in fact, "obvious" - the reliable sources cited go into great detail to explain that there is no proof of her ancestry either way. Stating that someone is an "impostor" is a statement that someone has knowingly lied about their identity. Given that no reliable source states that she has done any such thing, we cannot use such a label. Your continuing failure to understand this obvious fact is the primary reason why you have been appropriately topic-banned. I again hope you take some time to read and understand how our policies work and how we write about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:13, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Greggens

Comments from EdChem:
- I have closed the discussion at talk:Elizabeth Warren as the proposals made by the appellant are clearly prohibited by policy.
- Greggens has posted at ANI, a thread closed as retaliatory by Swarm, who offered some sensible advice that Greggens has not appreciated.
- Greggens, take some advice and a hint... when you have dug that deep, try changing directions. You are wrong here about policy and your proposed and reverted edits are unquestionably in breach of policy. You are adding negative statements about a living person without acceptable sourcing. If you don't want to have your bans lengthened or becoming broader, you need to develop a far better comprehension of policy and learn to listen to others, even when you disagree. Consensus against you on this one is close to unanimous.
  - An example: your appeal states that ... I had edited another page that wasn't a BLP (or recently-deceased person). It was merely a list article ..., but what you were adding to it was a negative statement about a living person. The WP:BLP policy applies to edits about living people on any page, not merely on biographies in article space. It applies to talk page posts, to Wikipedia space, and everywhere else, and anything else would be absurd. As an example: what would be the point of WP:BLP if it prevented editors posting "Politician X is a total [insert derogatory term] and is guilty of [list of serious crimes]" on X's biography but not from adding it anywhere else X's name was mentioned?
  - Another example: It was pointed out to you that your ANI thread was a topic ban violation, a statement with which you did not agree on the grounds that your post was about user conduct. However, your post was about user conduct in the area from which you were topic banned, posting diffs of edits in the area from which you are topic banned. Thus, your posts were very much talking about Warren and your views, even though you did not use the words "Elizabeth Warren." You could have been blocked for that ANI post, easily. You were fortunate that the thread was closed and your topic ban violation allowed to stand. Even in this appeal, you do not have unlimited scope to discuss the topics from which you are banned... the extra scope that you are allowed goes as far as is necessary to make your appeal and no further. A ban from a topic covers that topic on all pages, and discussions of it in all forms beyond making appeals permitted by policy.
- Recommendation to uninvolved admins... if Greggens doesn't change directions and fast, something less subtle than what NeilN has already used will be needed. EdChem (talk) 06:19, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Greggens

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The original report supports the sanctions imposed. Honestly, given that the problems spread farther than the Warren article (such as posting masses of maintenance tags without dropping the slightest hint as to what the problem might be, even in the edit summary, let alone on the talk page, and the huge undiscussed removals), I see more than enough disruption to justify them. Greggens is clearly capable of making valuable contributions in other areas, so I'd advise to use the time off from American politics to do that, and if you return to this area, reconsider the bull meets china shop approach and be much less combative. They're sensitive areas and require careful and thoughtful editing and a willingness to hear others who disagree. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:20, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also note that Greggens objects to the speed with which the AE report was closed. It's common for people to not entirely understand how that works, so I suppose that should be clarified. An AE discussion isn't required at all before an uninvolved administrator imposes discretionary sanctions, nor is it required to run for any given length of time if it does take place. As soon as an admin sees something they believe to clearly justify sanctions, they may place those sanctions. The entire point of discretionary sanctions is to enable a rapid response in areas that see a lot of problems. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:28, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per Seraphimblade - the sanction is not only within discretion but richly warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 10:02, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Per Seraphimblade and GoldenRing. The actions leading to the topic ban, and the actions since both clearly demonstrate the need for the topic ban. BLP should really be understood as "Biographical content about Living and recently deceased People" rather than literally applying only to biography articles, and a ban from all BLP content rather than just Elizabeth Warren would not have been an excessive reaction to your actions. When you find yourself in a deep hole and other people confiscate your spade, it is recommended to take the time to understand why they have done so before resuming digging. Thryduulf (talk) 10:41, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The sanction is clearly merited. This appeal would even be a basis to extend it. I would also decline the appeal. Sandstein 11:29, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Vexatious litigation. A mere half hour after appealing here, Greggens also took the matter to ANI (where it was promptly thrown out as a "bad faith, retaliatory report") in an attempt to get NBSB sanctioned for "harassment". Clearly they don't understand why that was a bad idea. Also, they still don't seem to understand how egregious it was to take their BLP violation to "merely a list article" after being warned off Elizabeth Warren's bio. That's all quite worrying. Also, Greggens complains that Neil "didn't even wait an hour after the enforcement request was filed to impose sanctions, nor did he allow a discussion to take place among other uninvolved editors", and thinks the sanctions imposed are, therefore, "too hastily imposed, too severe, and unwarranted." No, they're not; in an obvious case, there was no need for Neil to wait for discussion; that's not how it works, as others have pointed out. Now, somebody who's not at home on the noticeboards can certainly be excused for not knowing how AE in particular works; but why didn't Greggens ask/complain to Neil directly about that, rather than run straight here? Their quick appeal here is misuse of AE, IMO, just as their ANI attempt to get NBSB sanctioned was misuse of ANI. It's unfathomable that they would assume they understand AE practice better than Neil, to the point of not even bothering to ask him before coming back here. I hope a ban from American politics + Elizabeth Warren is sufficient, but I wouldn't object to a stronger sanction, especially for conduct after the sanction was given, per Sandstein. Bishonen | talk 11:37, 20 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]

At the least he should be banned from both AP and BLPs (ie a BLP ban which includes all BLP material) for six months, and given that his topic ban from Elizabath Warren, which he broke, was already six months perhaps longer. I can see no excuse for his List of Imposters edit unless he is truly unable to see the problem, in which case he may need to stay away from these topics completely.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 12:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per Seraphimblade. The speed and type of sanction was proportionate to the issue. He could have justifiably used harsher sanctions, so from my perspective, he showed restraint. Dennis Brown - 2¢
Especially given the contents of this appeal, I'd have gone for an indefinite topic ban so that we can get some reassurance that the behavior won't recur before lifting the ban. That said, decline. T. Canens (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Appeal has no merit. The sanction was more than within the discretion of the imposing administrator, and was highly justified based on the editor's actions. This appeal should be declined forthwith, and the current sanction should be extended at a minimum to a year in length and broadened to include the BLP topic space. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This appeal has no merit and indicates an absence of clue on Greggens' part. Accordingly, the sanction presently in place is the minimum that should be applied. This is a textbook example of why we have this AE process. The retaliatory complaint at ANI is a topic ban violation and an aggravating factor. I also note that tag-bombing articles without a corresponding discussion on the relevant talkpage is usually considered disruptive, and apart from the current, justified sanction I would advise Greggens to be prepared to offer thoughtful explanations for their actions and to make an effort to listen to the concerns of other editors. Acroterion (talk) 17:08, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ihardlythinkso

Ihardlythinkso blocked for 1 week for violation of topic ban. MastCell ^Talk 05:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Ihardlythinkso

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:02, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:ARBAPDS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

January 21, 2018 Violates topic ban by posting several comments at an AfD directly related to American politics
May 14, 2017 [10][11] Edit warring on an article closely related to American politics. Warned by several editors: [12] and [13]. His final response: "fuck me!"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

May 10, 2017 (notification) indefinitely topic-banned from post-1932 American Politics
January 31, 2017 Blocked for personal attacks
November 7, 2016 AE sanction
August 2, 2016 Topic banned
August 2, 2016 Blocked for personal attacks

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on May 10, 2017 by GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The purpose of the May diffs was to show that restraint was exercised by not reporting him for those violations, even those he displayed vulgar disdain for the explanations he was given.

Dennis Brown I'm perplexed by your comment on several levels. I'm not aware that there are technical topic van violations and non-technical topic ban violations. Also, IHTS's comments in the AfD exhibit a profoundly-shallow, if not obtuse, understanding of what race is commonly understood to mean. When an editor starts referring to respected Journalists and fellow editors as ignorant and uneducated, the quality of the discussion goes right off a cliff.

Given IHTS's colorful history of personal attacks, I think a week duration block is insufficient, but of course, that's not my department.- Mr X 🖋 16:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[14]

Discussion concerning Ihardlythinkso

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ihardlythinkso

Thx for your comments, Dennis. But I don't know what the Q(s) are to "respond" to. It's clear I feel an encyclopedia s/ not use sources that are demonstrably uneducated/ignorant, no one else seemed to see those flaws at the Talk. It's embarrassing. I added some education there at my own risk, to improve the encyclopedia, which is supposed to be the mission. So shoot me. --IHTS (talk) 23:34, 21 January 2018 (UTC) (moved here from wrong section below. --MelanieN (talk) 00:02, 22 January 2018 (UTC))[reply]
"Mexican", "Latino", and "Hispanic" are not race. (They are not even ethnicity! Look it up.) Apparently MrX wants to redefine the word "race" according to popular misconception. One w/ think that's below standard, for an encyclopedia. --IHTS (talk) 01:35, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

So I trawled through his edits and I found these two diffs in September among the thousands of minor chess edits - "was only "shocking" to Hillary supporters, was "delightful" to Trump supporters, so tell me this isn't typical liberal WP bias, duh!" and this on Dina Powell, the U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategy to President Donald Trump. I don't know how much relevance it has being months old; just thought I'd add here, being blatant violations (and showing a pattern of violations). There's also another edit to Shooting of Kathyrn Steinle here in July. (later addendum: probably not really a violation as not editing the part of the article related to politics, though toeing the line) There's four edits to the talk page of illegal immigration in the united states (marked as being under AP2 DS) in June. first diff (another addendum: not Those are essentially all the edits that could be violations of the t-ban since June. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't know what Dennis Brown is on about - Ihardlythinkso's statements definitely added some hostility to the debate. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:22, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding those edits to Talk:Illegal Immigration - incivility of Acts like yours is one reason WP sucks.. I would say those diffs are violation of the restriction. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think for repeatedly violating t-ban (blatantly too) with incivility a longer block is necessitated Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Ihardlythinkso

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This looks like a clear topic-ban violation. I suggest a week-long block, followed by escalating blocks if the breaches continue. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:22, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Dennis Brown: This comment by IHTS specifically references a particular politician. Regardless of them referring to a reference as well, they clearly violated the topic-ban. A 1 week block is what is in order, and I don't think I see that in any way as a "drastic" measure. Regardless, I too would like to hear from Ihardlythinkso as soon as they are online. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:26, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, this is nearly as plain as violations come. I'd support a one-week block but won't impose one until IHTS has had a little time to respond. GoldenRing (talk) 15:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Absent a compelling defense from IHTS, a block seems to be in order. I would go with 72 hours but one week is acceptable too. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The May 2017 edits, though undoubted violations, are too old to worry about much, but the comments at the AfD are recent and are certainly violations. One week seems reasonable. Bishonen | talk 15:20, 21 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
The May diffs are too stale to consider. The January diffs are violations, but I can't help but notice his focus was on the accuracy of the sources (or lack thereof), not about the politicians, so the violation is really a technical one. Not that it matters, but his points raised interesting questions about the sources, so it added to the discussion rather than disrupt, although he still needs to not do that since a topic ban IS in place. I don't think anything drastic is required, but it would be good to hear from IHTS, if he chooses to participate. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:49, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dennis, I don't agree that IHTS's argumentative comments in the AfD are merely 'technical violations'. They're actual violations. See for instance the comment about NYT's supposed bias, or about Paul Ryan's (and Mr X's!) "level of education". Bishonen | talk 16:28, 21 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]

I said "The January diffs are violations", so I'm not taking away from that. My comment is on the disruption causes and the content, so I'm not arguing against sanction (Coffee), I'm merely stating I don't we need drastic sanctions. A short block wouldn't be drastic. A month would. I read the comments in detail, so I'm quite familiar with the content. I think too much is being read into my comment, which were a comment on the case, not on other admin's comments. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:33, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Doncram

Doncram is formally warned to focus on himself and the contributions he can make on the site, casting aspersions or antagonizing other editors in any form will not be tolerated. There is no further action required at this time. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:17, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Doncram

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Nyttend (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: [15] (time to re-impose the interaction ban suspended by this announcement); also see below

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

In response to the announcement about the suspension of the Doncram case's interaction ban, Doncram promptly proceeded to attack the other party in the ban, as well attacking the same party in the discussion about case names versus numbers. When I left a note saying "this is precisely the kind of behavior prohibited in the announcement", he proceeded to attack me. Note the complete lack of evidence: you can't get a better example of WP:WIAPA point #1, Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. We routinely issue first-time blocks to editors who make this kind of attack, but Doncram's been significantly sanctioned for this precise kind of behavior in a past arbitration case, but he's still bringing up issues from five years ago to attack multiple editors. After this long, it's obvious that he'll not decide to comply with NPA. It's time to lock the door and throw away the key.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

New announcement, which started the discussion
Doncram's block log
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram remedy 2.1

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[16]

Discussion concerning Doncram

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Doncram

Statement by Mendaliv

Honestly I think part of this is post-litigation frustration, kind of like how blocked editors are sometimes given some leeway for sounding off in ways that would otherwise be sanctionable. Considering this is 100% Doncram, I am hopeful that the outcome here is just with respect to Doncram. Maybe a block, maybe a short one-way IBAN until Doncram calms, but not immediately reversing the Committee's decision to let the IBAN lapse. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 03:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatively this could be kicked to ANI to let the community handle it as a general NPA situation. My hope at the ARCA that got the IBAN lifted was to terminate Committee oversight of a very old case. Frankly, I believe Doncram's conduct here is objectively indistinguishable from an attempt to force the reinstatement of the IBAN by triggering the reinstatement provision of the Committee motion. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 03:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: My mentioning the age of the case is intended as a reference to my arguments for suspending the IBAN that I made at ARCA. The short version is that I believe people should be expected to exit the arbitration sanction system at some point, and that the duty to handle problems should revert to the general community processes. The Committee has a pretty strong abstention doctrine with respect to case requests, but when it comes to relatively penny-ante stuff like this, which would swiftly get handled at ANI if not for the previous case, the Committee tends not to release its jurisdiction. One of the reasons I gave to support the lifting of the IBAN is that getting caught up in Committee processes is extremely burdensome, and in most cases much more so than an ANI thread. Half the point of getting the IBAN lifted, frankly, is to not have to worry about getting dragged to AE over something debatable. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DHeyward: I generally concur with your assessment, with a couple caveats. First, I don't think the admins here are estopped from taking admin actions that would be otherwise appropriate even in the absence of a Committee sanction. Inasmuch as the comments Doncram made constitute personal attacks, and Doncram has a history of such conduct, an admin could take action on it. Perhaps a one-way IBAN isn't obviously authorized, but I think it would be a creative alternative to an indefinite block. This doesn't mean it would be a good idea to do either; I believe this is more in the nature of "blowing off steam" and does little actual harm to the project or to Sarek. Second point: I don't think Doncram's complaints are "legitimate inquiry" into the nature of the ruling. In the case of this comment, which rolls a bunch of complaints about the ruling into a comment about a completely different Committee procedural change, I don't see any inquiry, and I question the venue. Similarly, this comment directed at Nyttend at the Committee noticeboard has nothing to do with the ruling and simply consists of unsupported accusations of misconduct. I don't see either statement as legitimate or appropriate, and believe they could be grounds for sanctions. But, as I said, I don't think sanctions are so necessary at this point in light of the facts. The best option, in my view, is to give Doncram a stern final warning that his comments were disruptive and objectively indistinguishable from someone gaming the system to get the IBAN reimposed, and that continuing to do so would result in sanctions very likely to include an indefinite block. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DHeyward

Three points:

Given the timing, a trout is more appropriate per Mendaliv. The rush to AE so soon after ARCA is unfortunate.
The comment was made to ArbCom about a motion that affected them and perceived harassment. ARBCOM is well equipped to deal with this and really has no place here. The diff is part of the proceeding, not an attack. A trout for the editors and admins thinking to punish a legitimate inquiry at the appropriate venue. If ARBCOM wishes to amend their ruling, they are able to do so. This proceeding is inferior to the one that took place and should not presume to overturn that motion. Good faith dictatesthat ArbCom will act to patrol their own space.
The proposal of a 1-way IBAN is not a discretionary sanctioned allowed per the ruing. The ARCA request was clear that the ARBCOM remedy of a 2-way IBAN could be re-imposed but didn't contemplate a 1-way IBAN as part of the motion. A one-way IBAN was not part of the ARCA or original case. --DHeyward (talk) 06:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mendaliv: I don't disagree with your characterization of the comments, rather the venue was in ArbCom space about arbcom actions concerning him (obviously the IBAN motion is directly related while the naming of his case is related to case naming - when a remedy is a two-way IBAN, I can see the concern with a case name listing only a party). The Nyttend attacks are more concerning but that's not covered by AE AFAIK. Since all occured in ArbCom space patrolled by both clerks and arbcom members, it's one of the areas of wikipedia where virtually all participants can handle disruption. ArbCom is a heated space and it's just a bad idea to have AE move in those spaces. For the same reasons it would be bad for AE to drag editors that comment in evidence/Workshop/proposed decisions, I think AE should be reluctant to sanction in any ArbCom space. My 0.02 --DHeyward (talk) 07:56, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Doncram

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I think what is warranted here is a short block (1-2 weeks is my initial thinking) for the attacks against Sarek and Nyttend, and an indefinite one-sided interaction ban regarding Sarek of Vulcan. I don't think a two-way ban would be fair on Sarek at this time as one has just been suspended and they have not made any comments (that I am aware of) that would come anywhere close to being actionable in other circumstances. I would also strongly caution Doncram that any future breaches of the iban or personal attacks against other editors will result in lengthier blocks. Thryduulf (talk) 03:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Mendaliv: Why is the age of the case relevant? Either restrictions are warranted or they're not. It seems to me that they are regarding Doncram but Sarek has done nothing wrong since the Committee made their decision hence I'm explicitly proposing a one-way ban. Sarek's ban will remain suspended and hopefully expire, but if Doncram's fears do come true then I'm sure he'll be brought here (or to ARCA) quick-sharpish and appropriate action will be taken. I don't have faith in AN/I's ability to quickly or reliably separate wheat from chaff in cases like this. Thryduulf (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to let Doncram off with a vigourous trouting here, mostly for the reasons suggested by Mendaliv. With an additional warning that if there's even the slightest hint of another breach I will advocate coming down hard on Doncram. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 04:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
I think any action other than re-instating the IBAN would have to be a normal admin action, as DS are not authorised here. And I agree with the thought of others that this hasn't risen to that level - yet. I'm not sure that Doncram (as others have suggested) is making a deliberate attempt to have the IBAN reinstated, but if it becomes obvious that this is the case, I would argue for an indefinite (but not infinite) block as a normal admin action. GoldenRing (talk) 10:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: some empathy is needed here. Take a look at what Doncram has been saying, and try and empathise. He said I don't want this (in the edit summary) on 17 January, and then edited for a couple of days and then was absent for a couple of days between 19 and 21 January (the ARCA motion closed on 20 January and I can understand that this caught him off guard as that is very quick, only four days). He then said this, which includes statements that he was 'depressed', finds this 'unpleasant', that he is 'apprehensive', and that the situation is 'depressing and demoralizing'. As far as I know, things were OK with this situation, and the ARCA filing has had the unfortunate effect of stirring things up again (this looks like a case of a new arbitration committee wanting to be efficient and not stopping to consider the human impact of their actions). The impression given is that you and Nyttend are following the letter of the law here, and not seeing the human effects of the ARCA request, and the effects of your actions and proposed actions. Please also look at the comments here (WT:AC/N permalink) where the tone seems to be against imposing immediate sanctions. By all means warn Doncram, but please take into account his feelings. Carcharoth (talk) 11:48, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
After reviewing the "attacks" I do not find them of high enough severity to warrant arbitration enforcement action at this time. @Doncram: is reminded that he is still within the 6 month window where AE admins have the discretion to re-levy the recently rescinded IBAN if they are found to not act in a manner consistent with our community norms, especially in their dealings with other editors. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:09, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think he's forgotten that. GoldenRing (talk) 12:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can not speak to another editor's current memory. I can however state what the reality of their situation is. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:28, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see some drama-mongering and venting but not something that requires the ban stick. A warning is due, but reinstating the iban or changing it to one way is premature. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As a note on the idea of a one-way IBAN, admins cannot impose that at AE under the current motion. On the other hand, if uninvolved admins at AE determined a one-way IBAN was appropriate rather than restoring the two-way IBAN and recommended that to the Committee at ARCA, the Committee could consider that. Alternatively, all usual non-AE possibilities are available, including blocks and initiating a community discussion about a one-way IBAN. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:29, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @BU Rob13: why the focus on the legalese and what is appropriate in the strictly limited sense of AE? What is really going on here is that of the two parties to a two-way interaction ban, one of them asked for it to be lifted (SarekOfVulcan) and one of them asked for it not to be lifted (Doncram) or at least made clear he was not happy with it being lifted. ~~SarekOfVulcan saw the interaction ban as an impediment to any future RfA (at least he thought that way in 2014 and the arbitration committee didn't ask if that was still the case).~~ Doncram sees the interaction ban as protecting him from harassment. Regardless of who is right or wrong about that, those differing perceptions are a massive problem. The question here should really be why the Arbitration Committee did not see this problem that was right there under their noses and went ahead with suspending the interaction ban when it was clear that suspending it would lead to problems (at least that seemed to be clear to Callanecc, DeltaQuad ~~and Newyorkbrad~~). It was also clear to the arbitration committee that declined the previous ARCA in 2014. Read what Salvio and Seraphimblade said back then. If this does come back to ARCA, the committee should consider whether they need to re-examine their initial decision (the one in January 2018), and whether the decision was made too quickly. Carcharoth (talk) 15:37, 22 January 2018 (UTC) SarekOfVulcan has pointed out (by email) that he re-passed RFA (in 2015, I had forgotten that), so I've struck that bit. Carcharoth (talk) 15:50, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - When I supported the motion to suspend the interaction-ban after five years, I did not believe "it was clear that suspending it would leave to problems." I supported the motion because I thought that suspending and eventually lifting the interaction-ban would most likely not lead to problems. In my comment, I asked SarekOfVulcan to maximize the chance that things would go smoothly. I still anticipate, and hope, that Sarek will not do anything that could reasonably be understood as targeted at Doncram. Similarly, I hope that Doncram can move on from this matter—raising any genuine issue that hypothetically might arise about Sarek's behavior in the appropriate forum, but otherwise doing his best to put this chapter behind him. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:04, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Have struck that bit now as well. I don't envy you all having to deal with this. Hopefully it will work out. Carcharoth (talk) 16:36, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we should not take action here, irrespective of what one thinks about the conduct of Doncram. The remedy reads in relevant part: "this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator". But I think that it is not appropriate for the Arbitration Committee to delegate this kind of case management authority to random admins who (like me) may know nothing about this apparently longstanding case and the parties. The arbitrators themselves are, by virtue of their familiarity with these elements, much better suited to take any action that may be necessary - either collectively or by delegation to one among their number. The matter should therefore be referred to WP:ARCA. Sandstein 19:45, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Avisnacks

Block reduced to 24 hours by enforcing administrator, Avisnacks is reminded of the importance of talk page discussion when editing controversial articles. Thryduulf (talk) 16:35, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Avisnacks (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Avisnacks (talk) 17:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Appealing sanction for restoring my original edit by posting my new edit

I added a new subsection called "Is Trump a racist?" to the "Analysis" subsection. Under "Is Trump a racist?" I added a "No" subsection and a "Yes" subsection and populated them with direct quotes from sources (opinion writers of major news publications, Trump himself, and Ivana Trump) that either specifically called Trump a racist or defended him from the accusation. That edit was reverted because of "non-encyclopedic SYNTH and OR". I posted a new edit with much of the same source material and was sanctioned for this post.

Administrator imposing the sanction: Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [17]

Statement by Avisnacks

In my new post, I restructured the information (which is well-sourced and as yet unreverted) in order to integrate it organically into the content of the article. My original edit was reverted because I had created a new subsection called "Is Trump a racist?" which purportedly violated the SYNTH policy. I therefore remedied the issue by integrating the material (the material itself was never an issue because it was clearly notable, relevant, and well-sourced) within the preexisting article structure.

Additionally, in my new edit, I only updated the article with some of the content from my original edit.

If anything, the editing process worked the way it was supposed to with the two of us editors working in concert to achieve a better article.

Regardless, I have certainly learned to be more careful with edits on pages that are subject to sanction. As an editor, I have always tried to ensure that my edits draw no independent conclusions, but rather summarize conclusions reached by multiple, reliable sources. I will continue to endeavor to do the same.

Statement by Coffee

This was a clear violation of the consensus required restriction; what's worse is that just hours before violating the restriction, they had been directly notified on their talkpage that DS applied in the area. The editnotice was clear as it could possibly be (and they were not editing on a mobile device, so they undoubtedly saw it): consensus is required before reinstating any challenged edit. The user even here states that they reinstated challenged material; I don't think they could have made it any clearer that they deliberately refused to follow the sanctions system in place. Therefore, I strictly oppose any lifting of this sanction. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 18:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The sanction is not hard to understand. Edit means literally edit Sandstein, not identical edit nor exact edit nor pasted data nor similar edit, just edit. I find it hard to believe that after over a decade of editing on this site this user didn't comprehend the word edit. Their editing history shows a deliberate continual re-addition of material with no regard for using the talk page, even after several users had undone their edits. If an editor can't be expected to comprehend the word edit (defined as: A change to the text of a document.) then they surely shouldn't be considered competent enough to be active in such controversial areas. If they're being honest about their intent to not repeat this behavior, and we give them another chance, I'd suggest at most a reduction in the block something like 24 hours. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:06, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

After some reflection, and after seeing how much better of a response we're getting from this editor (who likely still did know of the meaning of the restrictions) in comparison to some others who have had to face sanctions. I have decided to take the advice of Thryduulf, and have reduced the block down to 24 hours. This includes time already served. I hope we can trust Avisnacks (talk · contribs) to ensure they never make a violation like this again: take editing in these topic areas slowly and never forget to use the talkpage to have any content disputes, instead of in the article space. I do not intend blocks to be punishments, so as you seem to be saying you've seen the error in your ways, and will not repeat them, I see no reason to not significantly lower the block time. I hope to see you editing constructively in a few hours, and for the rest of the time that you're here! Your editing is appreciated, even if it violated some rather severe sanctions this time. I learn from my mistakes, I'm sure you will too. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:38, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Avisnacks

Result of the appeal by Avisnacks

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I take it this appeal concerns the one-week block recorded on Avisnacks's talk page. I would grant the appeal and lift the block. The applicable restriction prohibits "reinstating any challenged (via reversion) edits" (my emphasis). Because it uses the word "edits" rather than, say "text", "material" or "content", a reasonable editor could have understood it in good faith as prohibiting only repeating the exact same "edit", i.e., a specific set of changes to a page, that was previously challenged. It appears from their appeal that this is what Avisnacks understood the restriction to mean, and attempted to avoid it by rephrasing their (admittedly quite daft) contribution in a slightly less daft form. But the merits of that contribution are a content issue and outside the scope of AE. Because the restriction lacked the necessary clarity, I think that it should not have been enforced in this manner. Sandstein 19:36, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- If Avisnacks were a new user or was otherwise somewhat naive about editing restrictions then I would agree that they might have interpreted it that way, however a for an editor who has been here since 2006 and isn't new to the topic area (they've been editing American politics articles since at least August last year) it is just rules lawyering. I do think a block is justified for this, but a week is excessive for a first block especially for an edit that was misguided rather than deliberately disruptive, so I'd reduce the length to 24 hours. Thryduulf (talk) 21:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Anythingyouwant

Appeal declined. Topic ban extended back to its original duration of a month. Sandstein 21:00, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction being appealed: "You are hereby topic-banned until 18:59, 27 January 2018‎ from editing any page that could be broadly construed to be about, regarding or related to Donald Trump". The sanction was imposed here and logged here

Administrator imposing the sanction: Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [18]

Statement by Anythingyouwant

Requesting that sanction be lifted because the imposing administrator (User:Coffee) sanctioned me not for any edit I made, but rather for mere edit summary language that I used. That edit summary language was not unreasonable much less sanctionable. Coffee acknowledged at my user talk: "You are correct that I have no issue with the edits themselves, it is the connotation that the summaries carried with them."[19] A week-long topic ban for a connotation?

My first edit summary: "Revision as of 06:40, 20 January 2018: Per talk age discussion, I am going ahead and challenging the recent insertion of this material by reverting it."
My second edit summary: "Revision as of 06:41, 20 January 2018: Per talk page, inserting profile info lower in BLP. Feel free to revert this particular edit, but consensus would be needed (per DS) to insert it elsewhere in the BLP."

The net effect of the two edits was to move a new BLP section to another spot in the BLP. Please feel free to consider it as a single edit if you like, instead of two separate edits (I did it in two separate edits because it was easiest, selecting and cutting the whole section, saving, then going elsewhere in the BLP to paste). My edit summaries simply expressed my opinion that no one should put the material back in the original spot without consensus, because the discretionary sanctions for this BLP say "All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." I felt that I was challenging the placement of this section by reverting it, given that, "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert."[20] User:Coffee disagreed that consensus would be needed to put the material back in the location from which I removed it, and I am more than happy to abide by Coffee's interpretation in the future (despite disagreeing with it), but I don't see why merely giving my honest opinion in an edit summary warrants a sanction. I am grateful, however, that Coffee reduced the sanction from a month to a week. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:MrX, you apparently disagree with Coffee that the edits in question were perfectly appropriate. Coffee is correct about that. Contrary to your blatant misrepresentation here, there was absolutely no talk page consensus about where the material should go, at the time I made the edits. See the pertinent talk page discussion titled “Moving the ’Public profile’ section”. Please correct yourself. Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:MrX, you dismiss the link I just gave (to the talk page section titled “Moving the ’Public profile’ section”) as irrelevant, and instead link to a version of that section long after I made the two edits in question. You are being disingenuous at best. Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:36, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:MelanieN, do you dispute that this topic ban is for a "connotation" in a mere edit summary, and not for any edit I made? That was Coffee's conclusion following discussion with me at user talk, updating his initial perception before the discussion took place (you very inappropriately avoid that entire discussion between Coffee and me and you instead seek to emphasize what preceded it). Moreover, Coffee said "I fully understand using the two edits to have to copy then paste", but you attribute the two separate edits to conniving and scheming on my part. Would you have done it in one edit or two? Obviously, it was much easier to do in two edits. Please, I have no problem considering them as one single edit for purposes of retrospective analysis, in which case my same rationale justified the edit summary: I was reverting the insertion of this new material by moving it, given that "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." Please, a week-long ban for a mere connotation via edit summary? I can't believe you seriously think that's appropriate. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:51, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:MelanieN, thanks for acknowledging that you too would have moved this material using two edits instead of one. I said to Coffee immediately before he reduced the sanction that "I also have big objections to a lot of the content in that section, and intended to address that after moving the section." I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with that plan. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:23, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Coffee, my reasonable mind thinks that you are way off base here. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have written what I wrote in the edit summaries, but I still would have moved the material, if not deleted it entirely pending further discussion. Why is this insufficient for you? You say now that "no reasonable person" could disagree with you that my edits "did not revert nor remove any data that had been added in any previous edit". That's totally and blatantly false. A revert is defined this way: "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert."[21] I very obviously undid the previous editor's placement of this material, so that qualifies as a revert, or at least it did in my reasonable mind when I made these edits. As I have said several times, I can accept your interpretation now that you have issued it. But I did not have a crystal ball, and did not know you would issue that interpretation. And what harm did I do? You have said (correctly) that it would have been fine for me to move this material. A one-week topic ban for a "connotation" in an edit summary would be okay if I had connoted something nuts, I suppose, but did I really? Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:17, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I haven't looked around much, but apparently I'm not the only crazy editor who thinks that moving things around can qualify as a revert: "a rearrangement of things into a different order is a revert if and only if it undoes an earlier rearrangement".[22] Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:45, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Coffee, ~~User:Coffee, User:Coffee,~~ the sanctions say "All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." You're now arguing that if someone challenges an edit (via reversion) but has second thoughts about it, he cannot revert himself unless he obtains consensus at the talk page? I do not buy that strained logic, moreover it's nothing like what I was doing, and moreover arghhhhhh! You are treating the two edits as separate, but that's another story. Look, if people disagree with an opinion I express about what the rules mean, they can just disregard, they don't have to sanction me for Pete's sake, especially if I've promised to never say it again. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Coffee, in my initial request here I spoke of the “net effect of the two edits”, so please don’t tell me that I insist on considering the two edits separately from each other. That’s just false. I am glad to consider the net effect, which was to change the intended placement of the section. If you want to consider the edits separately, fine. I don’t believe for a second that the consensus-required provision of DS applies to a person who has challenged an edit, which would be absurd; it would mean that a challenge couldn’t be self-reverted. Coffee, I have always avoided moving or rearranging new material in an article for fear that would put me over 1RR or 3RR. You apparently think my fear was not well-grounded. Fine. From now on I won’t treat moving content as a revert. But I refuse to demonize and ridicule editors who honestly have believed that moving and rearranging materal can constitute a revert. And if I was determined to invoke the consensus-required provision, I could have simply made the first edit and not the second, without relocating any content at all, correct? Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:24, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Awilley, no a week-long topic ban won't hurt me until the next silly topic-ban inquisition begins, when this incident will be cited, etc. I don't see that it makes any difference whether I said something incorrect in an edit-summary versus saying something incorrect at a talk page, I'm sorry to be incorrect either way. In future I won't hesitate (as I always have in the past on account of 3RR and 1RR) to change the order of things in an article, undoing the arrangement that other editors intended. Not only was I not "gaming" here, but there was no incentive to do any gaming, since I could have just as easily removed the section for further discussion, instead of moving it from where it was placed in the previous edit; no one denies that removing it would have invoked the do-not-restore discretionary sanctions. This is all a tempest in a teapot. Other editors are misleading and dishonest all the time with zero repercussions, and here I didn't do a damn thing. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:19, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Sandstein, is it asking so much that you please look at the two edits and the two edit summaries, and decide for yourself? User:MelanieN is an involved editor, and it shows. The two edits I made (with edit summaries in plain English) were obviously a real challenge to the location of the material that I moved. I reasonably considered moving the material to overall be a revert because it undid the original placement of the material. Coffee says that no reasonable human being could have considered my edits to be a revert, nor could consider any relocation of material to ever be a revert, and Coffee says that merely saying it was a revert is grounds for a topic-ban. Melanie says that, since I hoped to eventually get consensus to completely delete some of the moved material, therefore I should be topic-banned. And neither Coffee nor Melanie says there was the least thing wrong with my two edits; they only object to the edit summaries. If consensus here is that moving material is never a revert, then I will never again treat is as such, as I have already said several times, but that does not make me some lying, gaming, schemer, and I very much resent this mischaracterization. Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:54, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:GoldenRing, you don’t dispute that I challenged the placement of a section of the article, by moving it. You don’t dispute that I made no inappropriate edit, and was perfectly entitled to challenge the placement of a section of the article by moving it. And immediately when Coffee said he didn’t think the discretionary sanctions apply to such a challenge, I said fine, in future I won’t utter a word opining otherwise which is all I did in the edit summaries. You’ve addressed none of this; maybe you thought about it, maybe you didn’t, but your statement mentions none of it. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:23, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Mastcell, you say that I obtained a sanction reduction by saying one thing, but now say another. That is false, and moreover you know very well it’s false. As you note, the sanction was reduced after I said to Coffee, “If you say that (my) point of view is not correct then I’m glad to accept what you say about it." Likewise, when I came here to AE, I said above: “User:Coffee disagreed that consensus would be needed to put the material back in the location from which I removed it, and I am more than happy to abide by Coffee's interpretation in the future (despite disagreeing with it).” More generally, I view this as a content dispute, people who don’t like the content positions I’ve taken launch proceedings like this in response; and so instead of censoring content, Wikipedia instead accomplishes the same thing by attacking editors on pretext, while applying different standards to editors whose content they like. I don’t view Coffee that way, but I certainly do view a lot of the other actors in this petty drama that way. Anyway, in this case, I said something in an edit summary that turned out to be inaccurate in the view of Coffee so I agreed not to say anything like it again; what I said in the edit summary was reasonable, and had zero effect on any edits that I made (no admins now criticize those edits). I fully expected when I came to AE that (1) MastCell would show up because of his vendetta and would twist the facts as usual; and (2) the sanction would be increased. The centralized Wikipedia hierarchy is boringly predictable. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FOR THE RECORD, I just want to provide this link to various instances in which moving material in an article was deemed to be a "revert" of the prior arrangement. I fully intend to completely disregard those precedents in the future, and will feel free to rearrange material within articles as much as I want, given that people here in this AE proceeding think its preposterous to consider such a thing as a revert. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coffee

The topic-ban was shortened by 3 weeks as I believed from my conversations with the editor that they actually understood how the edits they made were an attempt to game the page restrictions in effect. I can see now that was a fruitless choice, and that they in no way have changed from the mindset that got them banned. - Anythingyouwant is mischaracterizing the reason for his current topic ban as if I had only ever blocked him for making an edit summary. Let me state emphatically: This is not true; he was banned for making disruptive edits (which happened to contain misleading summaries, if not purposefully so, about the content of said edits). The page restrictions and the WP:ARBAP2 ruling allow for administrators to choose sanctions based on their discretion which the administrator finds will remove or deter disruption in all pages relating to post-1932 American politics. These sanctions are not limited to only the 1RR restriction nor the consensus required restriction, and in this case the offending edit fell under neither. The offending edits were the cause of a sanction because the editor was clearly attempting to game the page restrictions in effect by attempting to make a move of data (via two consecutive edits) be considered a challenge of the data (something only available via reversion), which no reasonable person could construe the edit to be, as it did not revert nor remove any data that had been added in any previous edit. Their choice of a misleading edit summary was only part of the evidence, it was not the entirety of it. Their ban notice states the following even: You have been sanctioned For gaming the page restrictions system, by using a move of data in an article and claiming it was a revert protected by the challenge clause of the active page restrictions. To see that they'd try to misrepresent that fact, even after I reduced their topic-ban as a gesture of good-will, is just completely disheartening. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 03:57, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: I don't comprehend how you could possibly be claiming what you're claiming here. Because going by your logic, the re-addition of the content you "thought" you had "reverted", and thereby "challenged", without first obtaining the consensus the restrictions require before reinstating any such "challenged" edit would automatically be a violation of the consensus required restriction itself anyways. I'm not seeing literally any way whatsoever that this wasn't an attempt to game the restrictions, and I'm beginning to feel as though you're attempting to use this process to continue to do more of the same. I'm severely disappointed that I trusted you when I reduced the sanction time. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:16, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: You still haven't answered: how would your second edit, which you consider to be separate from the first (in literally every discussion I've had with you about this), could not have been a violation of the "consensus required" restriction by re-adding challenged content (without obtaining consensus on the talk page for doing so)? I'm not going to stop asking this until you actually answer it. It doesn't matter if that's not why I sanctioned you, it matters because it shows (along with everything else you've done here) your blatant attempt to game Arbitration Enforcement Remedies for your personal gain. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 10:05, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DHeyward: My stance on the restrictions is the same in both cases. An edit is an edit: it could include the removal and/or the addition and/or the movement of any content. An edit is a change from the status quo of something to something else. This is what I also emphatically stated above. Also, nothing that I've said here even slightly indicates that I believe the issue at hand isn't an editing one, in fact I'm emphatically stating that the problem here (and what caused the sanction) were edits that Anythingyouwant made which were completed in a manner so that the page restrictions could be gamed. The two cases are similar in the fact that they are dealing with editing issues, nothing more. Besides that they carry no similarity... as this is the only case of a user gaming the system I've had to deal with at AE, ever. As such they deserve much different responses, and bringing the other one up here is to my eyes entirely off-topic. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 09:54, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN, GoldenRing, and Sandstein: I agree with Sandstein and MastCell, I would at this point completely reverse my decision to shorten the topic-ban, as the conditions of that decision are no longer applicable. After the ridiculous amount of dishonesty and wikilawyering displayed here by Anythingyouwant, 1 month seems entirely appropriate. I was hoping for a better outcome, but I have to think pragmatically. And my intuition, and knowledge of this area, tell me there's nothing good about having this editor back in that topic area in 4 days time. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 20:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

This appeal should be declined. Anythingyouwant's edit appears to have been engineered to circumvent page editing restrictions while forcing his preferred edit over consensus. Several editors, including myself, believe this is but another example of Anythingyouwant attempting to WP:GAME the system. Coffee has already agreed to reduce the sanction out of what I assume is an abundance of good faith. It's pretty brazen to ask for it to be completely lifted.- Mr X 🖋 00:09, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nice try. Here is the discussion in which consensus was reached: Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_71#Where to put the "racial views" coverage. Here is the later discussion confirming that the consensus was actually the consensus:Talk:Donald Trump#Survey: location of the "Public profile" section - Mr X 🖋 00:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN

(Disclosure: I am involved at that article, and was involved in this very issue, so I am speaking as a regular editor and not an admin.) I can’t believe Anythingyouwant is appealing Coffee’s generous reduction of the topic ban from a month to a week. Here’s the incident that triggered things: At the Donald Trump article, there was a discussion about moving the “Public profile” section to a different place in the article. Anything favored moving it. Two days into the discussion, with consensus not reached, Anything pulled what I described as a “cute trick”, a two-part move based on attempts to game the DS sanctions. First he deleted the “Public profile” section from the article, with the edit summary Per talk page discussion, I am going ahead and challenging the recent insertion of this material by reverting it. One minute later he reinserted the section into the position where he wanted it to go, with the edit summary Per talk page, inserting profile info lower in BLP. Feel free to revert this particular edit, but consensus would be needed (per DS) to insert it elsewhere in the BLP. The removal was obviously not a real challenge to the material, since he restored it to the article immediately. Based on his edit summaries, he apparently thought he could make his move irreversible, by claiming that no one else could restore material he had deleted - but HE could. SPECIFICO called it to Coffee’s attention. Coffee told him to self-revert both edits or face sanctions for gaming the AE restrictions.[23] Anything said he would revert the second edit but not the first.[24] Coffee then issued a one-month topic ban for “your refusal to understand the proper use of the page restrictions, and for a clear attempt to game them”.[25] Anything’s various conflicting explanations for what he was doing and what he intended can be seen on his talk page, along with his appeal to Coffee, who ultimately decided to “give him the benefit of the doubt” and reduce the topic ban to 1 week.[26] And here we are. MelanieN (talk) 01:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anything, I might well have done the move in two edits. But my edit summaries would have said that was what I would doing: “deleting section preparatory to a move”, “moving”. I would not have claimed that the first one was challenging content by reverting it, as you did. As a matter of fact, in discussion at your talk page you doubled down on that claim, insisting to me that your “main objective was to remove disputed material”,[27] because it was “riddled” with “biased POV-pushing” that you would rather have removed from the article.[28] One minute later you restored that horribly biased section back into the article, while proclaiming that nobody else could restore it because … well, because one minute earlier you had challenged the content as so biased and POV that it shouldn’t be in the article. --MelanieN (talk) 04:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DHeyward

This appears to be a misunderstanding. The wording on the template is that "edit" must be challenged by reversion. Coffee has interpreted that to mean content rather than placement. It appears that Anythingyouwant and Coffee have come to a mutual understanding and Coffee has given him the benefit of the doubt of their interpretations. That should mean lifting the sanction completely since understanding is what protects while leaving it shortened just punishes. A short sanction doesn't really serve the purpose if there is understanding by all parties. Really, all it does is provide "blood in the water" that attracts adversaries advocating punishment. If retained, I expect at least 1 AE request to appear here if Anythingyouwant edits anything as the criteria for complaining is extraordinarily low and unlike ANI, there is never a boomerang. --DHeyward (talk) 01:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffee: I don't understand how your stance here is consistent with the stance you took above. In the appeal just above this one, you emphatically stated that an edit means edit, not content. But here, AYW reverted the placement of material in his first edit. Placement is an edit. Challenging "edits" is what the DS you placed says. Challenging an edit that places material in a location by removing it from that location is a form of reverting the edits of others. Now, AYW did not have to move it. Leaving it out would seem to have satisfied you. However, when he placed it back in a different location, he seems to have drawn your ire. That seems to be a concession on his part that the material is okay for inclusion, but he was simply challenging the edit that placed it in a different location. That's a compromise and a nod to consensus for inclusion. If the second edit is what made it "gaming," I am pretty sure leaving the second edit out was fine for AYW. I don't it's consistent to say that "edit" means "edit" in the previous appeal, but "edit" means "content" here. If your DS really means "consensus for content" it should say that, rather than saying it applies to all edits, which includes location. If you would have been fine with AYW's first edit, it's poor form for criticizing the second one. --DHeyward (talk) 09:03, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Awilley

Having followed most of the events leading up to this via my normal talk page stalking, I find myself basically seconding what User:MelanieN said. "Cute trick" and "gaming" are good descriptions of invoking the do-not-restore discretionary sanctions in the section move. If the user didn't already have an extensive history of working with these sanctions (warning and reporting other editors, being warned and reported themselves, and being sanctioned on occasion) I would object that the topic ban was too harsh, but I don't think a week-long break from Donald Trump will hurt too much in this case. ~Awilley (talk) 06:07, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

Sequence of events:

Coffee initially topic-banned Anythingyouwant for 1 month for gaming the AE restrictions: [29]
Coffee offered to reduce or lift the ban if Anythingyouwant provided evidence that he understood "what went wrong" and "what can be done to make sure it doesn't happen again": [30]
Anythingyouwant says that he understands why his edits were perceived as gaming the system ([31]) and tells Coffee: "If you say that (my) point of view is not correct then I’m glad to accept what you say about it."
On the basis of those representations by Anythingyouwant, Coffee reduced the topic ban from 1 month to 1 week as a gesture of good faith, provided that Anythingyouwant agrees not to "misinterpret any discretionary sanctions like this, ever again": [32]

Then, within about 24 hours, Anythingyouwant files this appeal, making clear that a) he doesn't think he did anything wrong, and b) he's unwilling to accept even the 1-week topic ban because he feels he was in the right all along. Coffee's responses here indicate that he feels taken advantage of (rightly so), and that Anythingyouwant is misrepresenting their agreement.

To be clear, not only should the topic ban remain in force, but it should be extended to its original length of 1 month. The topic ban was reduced on the basis of false representations by Anythingyouwant; he told Coffee what he wanted to hear, but clearly didn't mean it, given the substance of this appeal. Moreover, there must be some sort of exponential irony at work here: Anythingyouwant is trying to game the system in an appeal over a sanction for gaming the system.

He has a track record more than a decade long of this sort of behavior, documented all the way up to ArbCom, which I will rehash if anyone is serious about actually dealing with it in this venue. Failing that, at a minimum the original topic ban duration should be restored and no admin should extend any credibility to his promises of good behavior in the future, on the basis of his actions here.

Disclosure: I am commenting here as an involved editor, rather than as an admin. While I have no editorial involvement in the dispute at hand, I have about 10 years' worth of negative experiences dealing with Anythingyouwant's consistent and well-documented efforts to bend and break Wikipedia policy in service of his personal agenda, so I'm not able to speak impartially in an administrative role where he is concerned. MastCell ^Talk 19:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

I endorse Sandstein's suggestion you consider reinstating the full month TBAN. 2 tries at getting this undone have only made more clear the underlying problem. Arbcom called for escalating sanctions with repeat infractions. This is at least #3 by my count. Anyone want to go through another one of these AE threads and appeals again soon? SPECIFICO talk 20:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Anythingyouwant

Result of the appeal by Anythingyouwant

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It is difficult to establish the facts of the case, which are not well presented in the appeal, but based on the description given by MelanieN I am inclined to agree with her that the sanction is appropriate for attempting to game AE restrictions. Sandstein 09:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on MastCell's persuasive submission I also think that reinstating the ban's original duration of one month would be appropriate. Sandstein 19:35, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Decline The edits do appear to be attempting to game the restriction and the attempts at wikilawyering here are not impressive. GoldenRing (talk) 16:34, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline with an added warning to Anythingyouwant about WP:GAME. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No objections to reinstating the original one month topic ban. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:49, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have indeffed people for shenanigans like this. Decline. T. Canens (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Closing with a re-extension to one month. Sandstein 21:00, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Racassidy54

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Racassidy54

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Kingofaces43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Racassidy54 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms##Casting_aspersions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

April 16, 2014: WP:COI, example among others of citing themself. Discussion on talk page shows they try to sell chlordane detection and remediation products.
[33][34] Jan 22-23, 2018: 1RR violation along with this restoring WP:MEDRS and WP:MOS violations.
[35][36][37][38] Jan 24, 2018: More 1RR violations with casting aspersions in edit summaries.
Jan 2017 and 2018 More casting aspersions about COI when editor was confronted about their own COI.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is mostly an WP:SPA issue at chlordane, a pesticide. At first I thought this was just a newcomer issue, but it looks like the issues go beyond being able to talk an editor through Wikipedia processes. The direct DS related issues are the 1RR and casting aspersions issues in diffs above. Within that, this editor has been restoring non-MEDRS sources and MOS violations through edit warring while making an appeal to being an expert whenever editors try to show them the edit was not appropriate: With my broad background/knowledge on chlordane and its health effects I am a leading expert. Justifications for these edit removals, on wikipedia for a year, are not true.[39]. This editor identifies their real-life identity on their user pages, which reveals they are trying to cite their own primary journal articles in the article, and as Smokefoot pointed out, that they also market chlordane detection and remediation products.[40] This is a pretty clear COI related to chlordane in addition to the editor acting way too close to the topic even from a WP:EXPERT standpoint.

They've also been casting aspersions towards editors that either bring up their COI or edits with comments like One should mindful of the potential conflict of interest (COI) by the chlordane industry to minimize the health effects of chlordane. Go to PubMed and see all the health-related research. Question motives of editors who give employment or publications . . . Editors who text delete should give employment and publications in UserTalk page[41]. Cassidy was also warned for this by Edgar181 a second time after they were cautioned about this as part of the WP:ASPERSIONS principle in the DS notification.

I'm not a fan of handing out topic-bans, especially to relatively new editors, but a narrow topic-ban on chlordane-related topics may be needed for this SPA given that they've been getting cautions for over a year about slowing down without stopping. I'd hope that would force them to learn the ropes in a non-COI area where they hopefully won't be so hot-headed like we've seen here. I'm open to other suggestions, but it doesn't look like the route of trying to explain things to this editor (especially how we ask WP:EXPERT editors to act) is working. This kind of confrontational attitude is whatwe've been trying to keep out of this DS topic. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just asking for clarification if this goes the route of probation, but since this editor has a COI (beyond an expert editor citing their own work), they are already expected not to directly edit the article and only use the talk page. Is that more or less the intent people are having with the probation idea? Otherwise, the topic ban is functionally similar to what would happen otherwise, though the probation gives a little more room to learn (but also more opportunity to tug a fairly short rope in the topic). Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also just in case it was missed in the timeline, the first two set of diffs are indeed before the DS notification (though still disruptive behavior), but the second 1RR violation and aspersions were after the notification. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:18, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[42]

Discussion concerning Racassidy54

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Racassidy54

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Racassidy54

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Racassidy54, if I take you at your word as an expert on chlordane, then thanks for editing. However, you need to conform to the expectations at Wikipedia when it comes to behavior. Most of this activity came before a proper Arb notice was posted, but some of it was completely pointless, like the reverts with Ed. The problem I often find with "experts" in any field is they often know a topic very well, but perhaps to a point that they are inflexible when it comes to dealing with others in a collaborative environment. Expert or not, you are on the same footing as me or any other editor when it comes to the topic of chlordane, and I freely admit no knowledge. Still, we are equals. That expertise doesn't allow you to force your edits to an article. It is best used to persuade others to your point of view on the talk page. Even if your edits are the "truth", we build this encyclopedia by consensus, not by what one man thinks the truth is. This feels more like an ANI case than an AE case, so let me offer you this: choose your words carefully, don't cast aspersions about others, USE THE TALK PAGE. And while I'm here, if you want to add a citation to your own published works: Don't. Put it on the talk page, tell others where you would like it inserted, and let them decide. Then be sure to admit you have a COI on your user page. Even I have a COI statement on my user page. Most people have a COI when it comes to one thing or another. Of course, my speech here doesn't stop any other admin from coming in and sanctioning you (either as an AE or plain Admin action). Before I would opt for that, I am curious to hear how you want to move forward. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:37, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I think a topic ban for actions that happened before they were informed of the Arb case would be too strong. Not saying it won't happen eventually, but I don't see that they had fair warning for us to take such a strong action today. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Coffee, perhaps limiting them to the talk page on this article (or any article on the same topic) for a month while they get up to speed on how we do things. They obviously have some skills, albeit not necessarily social ones. If they can learn the ropes while still participating in limited way, there is a chance we can gain a useful editor. Honestly, they could use just a little mentoring. Regardless of how we approach probation, it is a better solution than outright tbanning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is a WP:SPA with a WP:COI. Both are problematic. I suggest a chlordane topic ban until they prove that they can make useful contributions to other topics in a collegial manner. Sandstein 22:40, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
With these many issues easily identifiable, I believe what's in order is an indefinite topic ban from all things that can be broadly construed to do with chlordane. Violations of this topic-ban should result in a first block of a week in length followed by escalations from there if necessary. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:27, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Dennis Brown: Perhaps we can use the rarely utilized Probation (supervised editing) editing restriction here? The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Then mark me down as for the editor being placed on probation, as this seems the best way forward here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:47, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I could see the probation being worth a shot. Having dealt with massive disruption from self-styled experts in longevity topics, this isn't rising nearly to that level; go with it and anything that goes awry from there will be easy to handle, and if nothing does then we have an expert editing in the field. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:22, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probation is an obscure remedy and is hardly ever used. (Check WP:DSLOG). You may have to explain probation both to the user and to any future admins. (Explaining bans is hard enough). Why not just close with a warning: if User:Racassidy54 makes any further reverts on the topic of chlordane (without getting talk page consensus first) they may be banned from the topic by any administrator. EdJohnston (talk) 20:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Given this edit made about three hours ago, with no attempt to address issues here, I support an indefinite topic ban from Chlordane, broadly construed. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man

No action. GoldenRing (talk) 07:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning The Rambling Man

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Toddst1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:57, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The_Rambling_Man#September_2017 :

I'm not sure if this rant against the behavior, competency and/or motivations of one or more arbitrators violates this remedy or is just seriously WP:POLEMIC, but it seems to serve no good purpose other than to spread FUD about ARBCOM without anything to back it up.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

diff, see above

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notification diff

Discussion concerning The Rambling Man

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by The Rambling Man

I'm glad this has been brought to the attention of Arbcom as a whole, the community deserves a response to the behaviour that I have described there. As for it coming under any active sanction of mine, not a chance. Another "problem" with interpreting the words of the sanction methinks. As for "fear, uncertainty and doubt", yes that's actually real now, just see Alex Shih's talkpage and Coffee's talkpage where it's made clear that Arbcom are discussing the behvaiours of at least one editor with no case or sanctions or proceedings to necessitate it. That, folks, is requirement creep. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:57, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mendaliv

I encourage no action here. It's a legitimate complaint about the Committee. Though I don't agree with the complaint, legitimate complaints about Wikipedia processes shouldn't be sanctionable. This is entirely separate from the objections that can (and should) be levied against the vague, inarticulate wording of the sanction that's in place. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 05:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by EEng

I very much disapprove of TRM's general style, but the cited remedy (The Rambling Man is prohibited from posting speculation about the motivations of editors or reflections on their general competence) should be interpreted as curbing his acid interactions with other editors (and that includes admins) qua editors. The Arbitration Committee is special – essentially the highest court of appeal – and should be broadly open to civil criticism, which TRM's statement is (although I disagree with its application to the situation he's talking about, which I won't go into further here). E Eng 05:48, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning The Rambling Man

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It's the usual TRM tinfoil stuff, but in the absence of any complaint from the editors concerned I'm not sure that any action is justified. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 05:41, 25 January 2018 (UTC).[reply]
I would have preferred this comment to be phrased in more temperate terms, but I'm not seeing a violation of the restrictions here. Vanamonde (talk) 06:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No action required as no restrictions have been violated. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 06:23, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Debresser

Blocked for 2 weeks for WP:1RR violation. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:49, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Debresser

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MShabazz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:10, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPIA#General 1RR restriction :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

24 January 17:56 Debresser blanked several sources
25 January 01:50 I restored them
25 January 09:50 Less than 24 hours later, Debresser reverted my edit

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 13 January by NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is a clear 24-hour 1RR violation. Debresser is well aware of the sanctions, as evidenced by his talk page, block log, and his many complaints here about other editors.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[43]

Discussion concerning Debresser

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Debresser

It seems to me that my 25 January 09:50 edit was my first revert. Why would this be a 1RR violation? The 24 January 17:56 edit was an original edit, in which I singled out specific sources as superfluous and irrelevant to the statement, after consensus had been reached to keep the statement itself. I also opened a talkpage section.

My 25 January 09:50 edit was not a revert, whatever GoldenRing may say. I have noticed that GoldenRing is very biased regarding my edits, and will try to interpret anything in my disfavor, rightfully so or otherwise. Debresser (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Base on the consensus here that the first edit was a revert, I would self-revert now, just that the article is protected... In general, I am not happy that the first thing people here think about is blocking. You could start with explaining a person's mistake. The approach here is bad faith, and that is not what Wikipedia says the approach should be. Debresser (talk) 15:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shrike

The first diff is not a revert but an edit.When those sources were added in the first place?--Shrike (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GoldenRing Point taken,nevertheless he should be given a chance to self revert but the article is protected.--Shrike (talk) 13:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingsindian

Would have been better to ask Debresser to self-revert first. It's easy to break 1RR by mistake.

Btw, it's irrelevant if the first edit is a revert or not. When an edit is reverted, the person shouldn't restore the edit again within 24 hours. This is a violation both of the "old amended 1RR" rule and "new amended 1RR rule".

[Incidentally, how many people even know about the "new rule"? I don't really mind, since the new rule is silly, but somebody is bound to break the new rule (without breaking the old rule) sooner or later.]

To repeat, it would have been better to ask Debresser to self-revert first. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Icewhiz

The content being removed was definite citation overkill (5 refs) in the LEDE to support a single word ("controlled"), which Debresser reduced to 2 citations without modifying any text.Icewhiz (talk) 15:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by username

Result concerning Debresser

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This does look like a clear 1RR violation. More or less the same material was removed by Debresser on 8 January in this edit and restored by Nishidani that day. That makes the first diff presented a clear revert, IMO. GoldenRing (talk) 13:36, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to hear what Debresser has to say. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:23, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @NeilN: What is your opinion now that we have heard from Debresser? — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:00, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- As far as I can tell, the disputed source was added here by Nishidani. That makes Debresser's first edit a revert. Malik Shabazz was allowed to restore the material as he was not the original author. Debresser reverted again, breaking WP:1RR. Two week block seems right. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with GoldenRing. The first edit was a revert. It is disappointing that Debresser reacts to this assessment with personal attacks. Considering the block log, I suggest a two-week enforcement block. Sandstein 14:55, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Another clear violation of a 1RR restriction. And considering the user's responses here I suggest as well at least a two week block. I do not think we need to hear anything further to make this action, as nothing further Debresser could say here could possibly excuse this action. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:59, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Debresser

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction being appealed: diff - Debresser (talk · contribs) blocked 2 week as a result of a consensus of administrators at the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard.

Administrator imposing the sanction: A consensus of administrators at WP:AE. Actioned by Coffee.

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Debresser

Two reasons: 1. I would have reverted myself if not that the page was protected. 2. It would be more logical to simply topic ban me for two weeks, then I could continue editing in other areas.

Note: Reason copied from the user's talk page and the remainder filled in by GoldenRing (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingsindian

AE sanctions can be appealed at AE, or AN or ARCA. Of course, appeals are rarely granted, but still, there's nothing wrong with the request itself. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coffee

I no longer care what happens... but the result is inevitable anyways. I'm done arguing with people who want to stress me out on purpose. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Speedy decline - And add a topic ban from AE, for disrupting process by appealing something we literally just came to a consensus about. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When you previously stated nothing further Debresser could say here could possibly excuse this action, it makes it difficult to argue that you are acting in an uninvolved manner. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Read this again, and I'll put the emphasis in there for you: One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters, at length if necessary. Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'.— Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And your text above I commented on fits none of the bolded categories. Dude, when I'm saying "you know, you might be INVOLVED", that's when it's time to panic. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You need to take some time to just read the top of this appeal: Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Why are there any admins commenting here without any knowledge of these things (including yourself)? This isn't a noticeboard for admins who have no experience in AE. Continuing to bludgeon your ignorance here about this topic is not looking good for you my friend. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 14:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you need to read the instructions, not just the summary. Administrators may not adjudicate their own actions at any appeal though they are encouraged to provide statements and comments to assist in reaching a determination. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coffee: Actually, I think Sarek, Neil et al are right on this one - the relevant ~~policy~~procedure authorised by the committee is in WP:AC/DS#Expectations of administrators, which Sarek has quoted above. GoldenRing (talk) 15:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your thoughts do not policy make... read the damn top of this very appeal... and literally every appeal. That is our practices here... why everyone is throwing such a large stink about this I really don't know. Let me be, I can't even log off to de-stress after today when y'all keep pinging me for absolutely meaningless crap. *headdesk* — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)More directly, I was quoting Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Enforcement, linked from the "damn top of this very appeal". --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If we're both quoting from the same place, why the hell are you telling me I can't use my own eyes and read the exception to the rules you keep referring to in an WP:IDHT fashion: Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: Didn't you literally claim I couldn't do this? Talk about hypocrisy. I've lost all interest in this case. You all just keep making a fuss about what is going to be the inevitable result of this appeal anyways: declined. Jesus Christ... what a time-vacuum. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 16:09, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Debresser

I have had a long history of severe problems with Debresser, (he thinks my edits 'inferior' to his) but, on a point of order, I think he didn't, Coffee, deliberately try to disrupt 'AE' where this notice has been posted on his behalf. As comments on his request on his talk page show, he didn't know where to post it, -AN was one option- and in fairness, this should be cleared up.Nishidani (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose an AE topic ban as was suggested below. Appealing something immediately after a decision being reached is entirely proper (and, in fact, is more appropriate than waiting a long time to do it). Realistically, Debrasser should've requested an appeal at AN, or just submitted it directly to the Committee via e-mail. The timing of this appeal is entirely non-disruptive, and in my view, cannot be disruptive. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:40, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A two-week topic ban seems more appropriate than a two-week block given the discretionary sanctions are topic related. Agree with Sandstein that ban is more appropriate. --DHeyward (talk) 17:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Debresser

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I agree that the intervening protection preventing a self-revert is a complicating factor here - but I see no indication from before this sanction was placed that the user would have self-reverted if they could have. Their response when it was suggested was "I'll think about that". Otherwise, the block was within admin discretion and supported by multiple admins. Decline. GoldenRing (talk) 15:51, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since you opined in the first, not sure if you should in the appeal. Opinions vary on that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It has been established, I think, that admins commenting in AE threads do so in an administrative capacity and therefore remain uninvolved in appeals. It's up to the user if they want to appeal here, where they are likely to meet the same admins again, or at WP:AN. But the sanctioning admin is normally treated as involved solely for the purpose of the appeal. Sandstein 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffee and Dennis Brown: Sandstein's comment here summs up my understanding of it; the relevant committee procedure (which has already been quoted repeatedly, I know) is "Administrators may not adjudicate their own actions at any appeal," which I read to mean that administrators are considered involved in appeals of sanctions which they have placed themselves. GoldenRing (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing, Dennis Brown, and Sandstein: So what you're essentially saying here is that it's best to never be the actioning administrator? Because it seems a hell of a lot like my administrative opinion loses value by simply taking care of what needs to be done. This is ridiculous. I will never close an AE thread again, you can guarantee that. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You extrapolate too much out of what I said. I only said that if an admin participated in an AE, they shouldn't participate in the appeal of that exact same AE case. It doesn't make them involved in any other way, just in that single report. That wouldn't stop them from sanctioning on a different issue, nor invoke WP:involved at all. Allowing an appeal to be considered by completely different admin is just good judgement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of however you paint this ridiculous picture, my position stands. You all can enjoy handling closing these from now on, and I'll sit back and keep my ability to use my administrative voice using the experience I have to actually have an impact here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 17:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Decline appeal with one note - What I have to look at is not what I would do, but what is normal, necessary and reasonable. Considering your history, two weeks block is within admin discretion. There isn't any question that broke 1RR, although the fact that it was full protected directly after DOES complicate it a bit, as you had no opportunity to revert. That doesn't mean you would have. Had you gone to the talk page or to the protecting admin and requested a revert, then that argument would carry more weight. I looked at Favonian's page and the article talk page, but didn't see it. The problem is that on technical grounds, I don't see a fault here. The sanction might be on the strong side (your last block was 3 days) but not so far outside the norm that it is outside of admin discretion. Of course, if Coffee wants to modify the sanction to a topic ban for a month +/-, I would be supportive of that as well, as that would be more in line with what I might have recommended, but I can't see any justification to compel him to, nor any reason to overturn his decision, as at least two admin thought a 2 week block was due. As far as his comments go, I don't see that relevant or prejudicial considering it was an obvious case of breaching 1RR. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline or convert to longer topic ban Since Coffee only instituted what multiple admins had said, I see 2 weeks block within discretion as well. I also note that while protection made self-reverting impossible, there is no indication that Debresser actually wanted to self-revert, per Dennis et. al. However, since we cannot rule out that he would have done so, I'd be open to offer Debresser an alternative to declining the appeal, i.e. converting said block to a topic ban for a month as Dennis suggests. Regards So Why 16:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agreed with the ban and I would accordingly decline this appeal, which provides no new arguments and does not address the conduct for which the ban was imposed. Sandstein 16:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: "TheTimesAreAChanging placed on indefinite probation in the topic area for refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits."

Administrator imposing the sanction: Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [44]

Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging

I made a single normal edit to List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations, which I believe was mandated by BLP, at 19:54, 25 January 2018, after previously broaching the idea two days earlier and getting qualified support from My very best wishes. BullRangifer, the creator of the article and who has a very different perspective on these matters than I do, thanked me for my edit, later defending it on the talk page. The article was not under DS at the time; if it had been, I probably would have been less collaborative, as there were several paragraphs of "Commentary" (e.g., here) that I might have "challenged." (If possible—creating a new article without such sanctions is obviously a way to bypass them and force content through, if the content is considered "long-standing" by the time the sanctions are in force.) Yet SPECIFICO, who had no problem with the several paragraphs of opinion commentary, reverted my addition of the widely-reported testimony of Trump's longtime bodyguard, Keith Schiller, stating that "Statement of Trump's denial is sufficient." I disagreed, so I made a single normal revert at 07:19, 26 January. (To date, none of the editors in the ensuing discussion have agreed with SPECIFICO.) Ten hours later, after SPECIFICO inaccurately told Coffee that I had violated the article's non-existent DS at 17:39, Coffee added the template (including his brand-new "civility" requirement) at 17:43 and logged it at 17:45. While acknowledging that "I couldn't do more as the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," Coffee still decided to place me on indefinite probation for violating the DS, which he apparently considered to take effect retroactively. I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Floquenbeam, I am 99% certain that DS were not in effect at the time of my edit, and I looked carefully. Once the talk page has been tagged, I believe that the warning remains visible on earlier revisions of the talk page, but that does not mean that the warning was actually there the whole time. That's why I included Coffee's confirmation that "the page restrictions hadn't been added to that article yet," as well as the relevant log, which states: "List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations placed under indefinite 1RR/consensus/civility required restriction."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Floquenbeam, I honestly did not see that. I've stricken my comment above.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When SPECIFICO violated Discretionary Sanctions at Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections ([45], [46]), I warned her and she self-reverted. When I (inadvertently) violated Discretionary Sanctions (that had not been logged, with no edit notice), I returned to Wikipedia and suddenly found that SPECIFICO had reported me directly to Coffee and I had already been sanctioned, with no opportunity to respond. How is this sanction anything but punitive?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mandruss, this comment really misses the mark. No, I didn't check the log, but I obviously wouldn't have made the edit if there had been an edit notice.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the talk page as of the time of my revert: [47] I had not edited it, and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. Coffee could have easily asked me to self-revert before immediately imposing a new hard-to-understand restriction.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coffee

Trying to go to sleep but I have to correct what is being misrepresented here: The sanction was for a violation of overall WP:ARBAP2's standards of conduct. It was done under authority of WP:ARBAPDS which allow administrators the ability to apply sanctions at their discretion to anyone editing in the topic area. As this user was already made aware of the DS existing in the topic area, the sanction was made in full validity. It was not a sanction based on page restrictions. And my sanctioning of the article, after realizing it wasn't during the review I made, had nothing to do with the probation sanction placed on this user. This is made extremely clear in the sanction notice, and I feel this user is being obtuse. I also agree that this user has already violated the probation sanction (by the comments on their talk page), and I would personally levy a 24 hour block for such conduct. I however really, really need rest after today's events (some of you are aware of) and therefore will not be conducting that action. This is all I will state here for now. Good night/day folks. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

TheTimesAreAChanging unambiguously violated the page restriction prohibiting reinstatement of any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article. As surprised that I am that he received the lightest possible sanction, I'm actually shocked that he would have the audacity to appeal it.

In my opinion, ~~the sanction should be increased to a topic ban for blatantly abusing process by Wikilawyering and wasting editors time.~~- Mr X 🖋 20:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: Yes, I did overlook that the edit notice was placed after the fact. That does make the situation a bit more ambiguous. However, TheTimesAreAChanging reverted without consulting the talk page which does not bode well in his favor.- Mr X 🖋 21:03, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TTAAC wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction; he was sanctioned for "repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area." It is well within an admin's authority to place such a sanction on an editor, so the appeal is completely without merit.- Mr X 🖋 21:27, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

Please don't misrepresent my actions by stating the article was not under the Consensus DS at the time you violated it. The history of the talk page clearly shows the DS in effect at that time. [48] Coffee later updated it to add the Civility Requirement. Please withdraw this appeal and if you edit according to policy you will have no further concerns. Frankly, given TTAAC's previous TBAN and his quickly-broken assurances that prompted Sandstein to lift it, a new TBAN would not be unexpected. It's hard to see any problem with probation. SPECIFICO talk 20:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now I just saw that TTAAC is broadcasting the same disparagement of me and Coffee on the article talk page. Given that he just acknowledged awareness of the Civility Requirement, it seems that a new, second, violation of the DS has occurred as well as a violation of his Probation sanction. [49]

@MjolnirPants and MrX: The new DS template added the Civility Restriction replacing the former template that already included the Consensus Restriction. [50] The Consensus Restriction was in effect at the time of the violation, plainly visible both at the time of the edit and at the time he denied and removed my request on his talk page that he undo the violation. SPECIFICO talk 21:33, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

I think this sanction is just another example of Coffee's heavy-handed and erratic behavior as an administrator, and would like to see it reviewed and revoked. @TheTimesAreAChanging:I strongly suggest you strike or remove this bit. Not only is it not helpful, it's a personal attack not backed up by evidence. And no, I'm not suggesting you find evidence as that would only exacerbate other issues. Please, just strike or remove this bit (I'll remove this comment as well, if you do). Even if Coffee is the things you allege, that doesn't prove your sanction was unjust; that still needs to be judged on its own merits. For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. I'd have supported it if I'd been involved at talk. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: I found the following at WP:SANCTIONS:

Probation (supervised editing): The user on probation may be banned from pages that they edit in a certain way (usually disruptively) by an uninvolved administrator. Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.

I read it to mean that uninvolved admins are free to "stalk" the sanctioned editors edits to that page and issue additional sanctions without further justification (possibly beyond a diff to the edit in question, and a short explanation of what's wrong with it). I agree that it seems to be the most lenient form of sanction, as a gung-ho admin could do the same thing without violating policy to any editor, in theory. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I found the edit you gave a diff of to be perfectly fine, as well. With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. The only pertinent facts are: (1) Despite TheTimesAreAChanging's repeated claim, the remedies and DS were in effect at the time of their revert, and (2) the circumstances do not approach a consensus for the edit, by any interpretation I've ever seen in my ~18 months of heavy involvement at Donald Trump. It doesn't speak well for TTAAC that they even mention a "thank" as having an iota of relevance here; the remedies quite clearly state "must obtain consensus on the talk page". There is nothing particularly complicated about these restrictions, even for someone as limited as me. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, it's not worth anything in this venue, as there is no such thing as a retroactive consensus. I'm not suggesting that the appeal should be overturned because I think the edit was fine, I'm simply telling TTAAC that I would have defended his edit, even though I took issue with a part of his appeal statement. TTAAC and I are usually at opposite ends of similar discussions, and as such, it's worth pointing out those occasions on which we are in agreement. The idea here is to foster collaboration, not to undermine it, after all. Olive branches and the occasional compliment help with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:21, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SPECIFICO: I haven't said anything about the timing of the restrictions. My comment about his edit was not meant to convey anything more than the knowledge that -had I been aware of the discussion of that edit- I'd have supported including it. See my response to Mandruss, above for more on that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:55, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn. It's another case where we shouldn't be here. It's arguably a necessary edit as a BLP required NPOV presentation. Blanking would also be arguably necessary if sourced, exculpatory statements are not presented. The fact that page wasn't under sanction the entire time is just more grist. Remove "probation" as it's just a setup for any type of future complaint. It solves nothing and only provides an excuse for a flimsy future topic-ban. If anything, convert it to a "reminder." --DHeyward (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam:, it's my understanding that standard DS does not include "1RR/Consensus required" language. That is a page level restriction that is made on a case by case basis. There is no DS violation until page level restrictions are placed and logged. Coffee creates special templates for each page, I believe. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This was the notice in place at the time of the violation. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:34, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can place a template. Restrictions, however must be logged here[51]. I only see Today's entry for page level sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Primefac see too. --DHeyward (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can place a template, true, and I once tried to do so out of ignorance. It was promptly disputed and removed because, as the template message says, "An administrator has applied the restriction above to this article." And, iin fact, that template was placed by Amortias, an admin, as the page history clearly shows. Failure to log, if any, is a wikilawyering technicality, as editors cannot be expected to go check the log before taking action. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:42, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's required to be logged. And yes, I do check the logs when I see page restrictions. Logging it is part of the notice requirements and spelled out in the DS ArbCom ruling. And yes, it's ridiculous but being brought to AE on dotted i/crossed t violations under scrupulous rules lawyering should require scrupulous adherence. It's not under page level sanctions unless logged. @Floquenbeam: --DHeyward (talk) 21:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Editing restrictions have to be logged, but any admin can sanction any editor editing in the American politics subject area, provided that they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. See WP:AC/DS. You seem not to grasp that. - Mr X 🖋 21:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TTAAC has not stated that they checked the log, couldn't find the log entry, and therefore ignored the template. We can safely assume that is not what happened. Thus your argument has no bearing on the issue of TTAAC's actions, and I repeat the word wikilawyering. It's the old story ending with "...and besides, I don't have a dog." ―Mandruss ☎ 22:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He wasn't sanctioned for violating an editing restriction. He was sanctioned for or his repeated refusal to gain consensus before making controversial edits in the topic area. Admins are given discretion for imposing such sanctions, so this appeal lacks merit. If this were a new editor who had just wandered into a Trump article, I would recommend giving a pass for not seeing the talk page notice. That is not the case here.- Mr X 🖋 21:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given that this is not a violation of the page restriction, but a general editor restriction, I am concerned that Coffee viewed TTAC's talk page comments as a probation violation and "blockable" with no diffs and nothing I see as obvious. I am very concerned that this condition will be abused. Everyone seemed to believe this was a page level violation being enforced but now it's not so there is definitely a clarity and communication issue. --DHeyward (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Floquenbeam: This is TTAC's only edit to their talk page[52] in 10 days. Blockable probation violation? --DHeyward (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: I'm astounded that you are still claiming that there was no notice in place. I have already linked to it, I know you saw the link, and you are beginning to bend my AGF. Here it is again: [53] ―Mandruss ☎ 22:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mandruss:That's the talk page notice, the actual editnotice is here: Template:Editnotices/Page/List_of_Trump–Russia_dossier_allegations. It appears when you try to edit the page. But I agree that the argument that TTAAC was unaware of that condition is untenable. He scrolled past notification every time he edited the talk page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: and there was not yet any discussion of the disputed content. The template says: "any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)". NOT "any edits that have been challenged (via talk page discussion)". Your edit became a challenged edit immediately upon the first revert of it. It seems to me the problem is your unwillingness to read and understand clearly stated restrictions. Editors who are not willing to do that shouldn't be editing articles under the restrictions. One mistake can be forgiven if you're new to the restrictions (are you?), but, after all this discussion you still haven't read, understood, and resolved to observe the restrictions, let alone withdrawn this appeal of a very lenient slap-on-wrist sanction. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:39, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can I draw the admin's attention to the personal attack against Coffee that makes up the latter part of the origina filing? I quoted it at the very top of this section. I've asked TTAAC to strike or remove it, but gotten no response. Would one of you (@Floquenbeam and Primefac:) please at least make the same request for striking it, or redact it yourself? It's really unnecessary, it's inflammatory, and it's petty. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by TheTimesAreAChanging

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

What is "indefinite probation"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:24, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX: But was that restriction in place when the edit was made? If I'm reading timestamps right, it was added afterwards? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Answering my own question, it looks like the DS was already in place on the article, based on the talk page notice, but Coffee just recently added the edit notice after TTAAC's edit. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on Primfac's comment, I have a 3rd question: is there any reason not to block for that edit instead? That's clearly within the topic area, and the idea that it was exempt because it was a BLP issue is not reasonable. I'm still curious about the first ~~two~~ questions, though, even if they might be moot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Striking based on Primefac's strike... --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So to clarify after a multi-admin brainfart... DS were in place, albeit without an edit notice. While I still want to know what "indefinite probation" is, I find it hard to believe that this sanction should be undone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTimesAreAChanging: Looks like they were added on the 22nd: [54]. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DHeyward: see diff immediately above in my reply to TTAAC. Article sanctions were apparently in place, just no edit notice. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now I remember why I only edit WP:AE once every 3 months. The arcane rules make my head hurt. As I now understand it, the recent arbcom decision (see WP:ACN) says that page restrictions can't be enforced if there's no editnotice. However, Coffee has just pointed out above that it was a sanction under the general sanctions for this topic, for repeated addition of reverted info in this topic area. Not an article-level sanction. So the question for reviewing admins is: Is this editor probation an acceptable use of admin discretion based on the general American Politics sanctions. Everything else about timing of editnotice is a sidetrack. To answer that question, I'd say that since there are really no consequences to the sanction beyond heightened scrutiny, which was happening anyway due to previous topic ban, that the sanction is reasonable. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So... um... I find it hard to be sympathetic with the OP when they were topic-banned a fortnight ago from WP:ARBAPDS (which, for those living under a rock, is post-1932 politics), and (as I just found) had the appeal declined two days ago, so you shouldn't have been editing the page in the first place. I'm amazed you actually got away with that, so the fact that you're only on probation makes me think that Coffee was actually being lenient. Primefac (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2018 (UTC) [reply]
~~@MrX:, they already are ^ Primefac (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)~~[reply]
I'm an idiot who can't read a timestamp (I think I need some sleep as well); the tban was last year. Still, you would think that someone who has been tbanned for this nonsense before would know about how to not get flagged for it again. I stick with my previous statement that I feel Coffee was being lenient with just "probation". Primefac (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@DHeyward:, you're kidding, right? Take a look at the page right before Coffee changed the notice - third notice, second bullet: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period). so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited the sanction template, which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. Primefac (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. Primefac (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline the appeal. The sanction is clearly within discretion and, if anything, the gentlest sanction the admin could come up with. The only change I would argue for is for TTAAC to be banned from that page outright, because probation is obscure and not widely understood. GoldenRing (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 817: / Line 817: @@
 *:::{{ping|DHeyward}}, you're kidding, right? Take a look at [[Special:PermaLink/822486386|the page right before Coffee changed the notice]] - third notice, second bullet: {{tq|Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period).}} so... 1RR definitely holds. Additionally, there two arbs who edited [[Template:Post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions page restrictions|the sanction template]], which means that by SILENCE or other policy they approved of the language. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 21:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
 *::::To echo Floq's post above, I agree that the sanction is reasonable; if the OP stays within the bounds of ARBAPDS (because you cannot make the argument that they don't know about it, or that they won't look for DS's in the future) then there is no issue. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 21:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
+*'''Decline''' the appeal. The sanction is clearly within discretion and, if anything, the gentlest sanction the admin could come up with. The only change I would argue for is for TTAAC to be banned from that page outright, because probation is obscure and not widely understood. [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 23:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

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