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October 12

looking for an old image/poster

I am trying to find something that I saw around the internet some months ago, wondering if anyone recognises it. Basically an advertising poster portraying the real world as a game, with information on statistics of how huge the in-game world is, how many NPCs to interact with and skill points to gain and so on. Chances are it's lost amongst the billions of other mildly amusing things that pop up around here and soon disappear again, but maybe someone knows where I can find it now?

213.104.247.116 (talk) 22:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting I did try a few different terms in [www.google.com/imghp] but I don't think I found anything that meets your complete description. If there is an image that is close or has aspects of the poster you speak of you can use that image to search like images through Google, also if the poster had a title or saying that might be useful for text searches of images, did it?Marketdiamond (talk) 20:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Try the page image on TV Tropes for 'Real Life'. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Obituaries

I'm looking for two obituaries:

Can anyone help me find the obituary of Virginia Herrel (died September 28, 2004. I don't know if her obituary was published in either The Orange County Register, or in another newspaper, but I believe she died in Anaheim, CA)?

And can anyone help me find the obituary of Pieter Verkaik (died December 17, 2003, and his obituary was published in The Orange County Register on December 22, 2004)? 98.234.170.206 (talk) 23:17, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Which Orange County are we talking about, the one in California ? StuRat (talk) 00:30, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

The Orange County Register doesn't appear to have any records of a Pieter Verkaik, on that or any other date. I searched for other Pieter's, in case that last name's spelled wrong, but none seem to be the one you want: [1].

Here's an obit for Virginia Kilgo Herrell, but I don't think this is the right person: [2]. StuRat (talk) 00:47, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

This site claims to have info about the death of Pieter M. Verkaik, of Santa Barbara, CA, but you have to sign up to get it:[3]. They also have a record for Virginia M. Herrel of Anaheim, CA: [4]. StuRat (talk) 00:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Verkaik... Daughter Petra... The Playboy centerfold of a couple or three decades ago? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:56, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Virginia M. Herrel, died 9-28-04 in Anaheim. That's from Ancestry.com, but their source is the Social Security Death Index. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

October 13

Most Successful Franchise of all Time

I can't seem to find this seemingly simply question online: Out of every franchise in the world of any medium (Broadway plays, video games, movies), which franchise has made the most money in history? Franchises that span multiple mediums (Pokemon has games, movies, television, manga, and trading cards for example). The only things I can find online only deal with one medium ("Most successful movie series of all time", for example) --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 07:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I assume you mean to measure success by money earned. More recent productions will earn more money, typically, due to increases in population, and especially if you don't adjust for inflation. So, with that in mind, perhaps something like Harry Potter ? StuRat (talk) 07:58, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

BTW, the Entertainment Desk would be a good place for this Q. StuRat (talk) 08:00, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Shakespeare would be my guess. --TrogWoolley (talk) 18:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget Washington Irving, with his stories being recast and remade every generation . . . and with the current political climate would PBS/NPR (Bigbird) be considered their own franchise (merch, multiple PBS mediums etc?). Oh that's right they are non-profit. Marketdiamond (talk) 20:28, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing that PBS and Washington Irving combined have not earned in their existence one-thousandth of what an actually popular franchise has. Especially not the extremely obscure Irving!! --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 21:24, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

For your PBS reaction see arguably longest running single host show, the original 25 seasons of National Geographic specials andWhere in the World is Carmen Sandiego?, and thats only the "small market"Pittsburgh station, expand from there.

I may be inclined to see how Irving isn't #1 or some factual reason he may not be top 5 but "extremely obscure"? Then why do Hollywood studios keep remaking Legend of Sleepy Hollow over and over, they want to lose money and audience? Not to mention all the derivations and adaptations that on first sight don't seem connected. LoSH was just one of Irving's works, for nearly half a century he was the "rockstar" of American Literature, I've heard some scholars state that he is the father of American or even New World literature (so then every screenplay and sitcom treatment can be traced back to him? Not suggesting that but the question has been raised before). Most importantly Irving was the very first new world author to actually be read (and sought after) by Europeans. I really don't see any media "franchise" even coming close to Irving until decades later with Mark Twain and Stephen Foster (another 2 that would have to be considered when accounting for all the subsequent "borrowing" of their works under different projects). Imagine having only one "artist/entertainer/media personality" dominant decades almost a half century and not only the U.S. but be taken seriously throughout the world, closest I can compare is Stephen King or Oprah but even with their staying power decade after decade they are not the dominant overarching monopoly Irving was in so many ways. Marketdiamond (talk) 22:31, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

"Franchise" is not defined here, but I don't think all the works of a single author such as Shakespeare or Irving would qualify, although Hamlet (which predates Shakespeare) or Rip Van Winkle presumably would. And is Looney Tunes one franchise, with mutually interactive characters, or several (Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Daffy Duck, etc.)?

A truly successful franchise would have to be something that has continued to be successful until more or less the present day. So Robinson Crusoe probably isn't going to be a winner, even though there were a great many adaptations of it in the past. Among the contenders that come to mind, besides Looney Tunes, are Sherlock Holmes, Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, classic Disney (Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck - maybe separate franchises), Tarzan, James Bond, and Star Wars. John M Baker (talk) 22:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm having real trouble understanding the meaning of franchise here. The only meanings I'm familiar with are the right to vote, and a commercial right to run a business on the same model as another, such as KFC or McDonalds. I'm not American. Are we discussing something from that culture? How can Hamlet be a franchise? HiLo48 (talk) 23:09, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

The OP is welcomed to correct me but I think John M Baker has a point, "franchise" in the entertainment sphere usually refers to some genius concept such as the "Indiana Jones franchise" or the "Oprah franchise" including all merchandise, theme park attractions, cross promotion (like product placement, promotional partnerships, soundtrack and MTV videos, cartoon or sitcom spinoffs, McDonalds happy meal toys, etc.) or their comparables in past decades or centuries. When answering and to level the field I consider people like Twain, Foster and Irving their own "franchises" since in those days you pretty much had to be. Marketdiamond (talk) 23:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I interpret the question to be about a media franchise with licensing rights. The rights to Shakespeare's works expired long before they made significant money so they don't qualify. List of highest-grossing films#Highest-grossing franchises and film series and List of best-selling video game franchises may be good places to find candidates but they don't give total numbers for the media franchise.PrimeHunter (talk) 23:25, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Although I can see where your coming from PrimeHunter I disagree, in your example of Shakespeare the "franchise" is still making money just for others. By your method the Beatles may disqualify since it is the deceased Michael Jackson's estate making $ on the still alive Paul McCartney/Ringo Starr's works (at least last I checked MJ's estate was). Technically they are still in copyright but that shouldn't be a hard standard since Disney corporation successfully extended 75 year old works[5], Shakespeare (and Irving, Twain etc.) just didn't have a perpetual global army of top lawyers on retainer lol. Why should the lack of that diminish the $ those works continue to produce today by being repackaged and reworked? Marketdiamond (talk) 00:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I tried to guess the intention of the poster who said franchise four times and medium three times. We haven't heard back from him but see for example media franchise and wiktionary:franchise. I'm not discussing "fairness". PrimeHunter (talk) 01:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

People are still making money out of Shakespeare, but no-one is making money out of the franchise, since there is no intellectual property to license (which is how you make money out of a media franchise). It isn't really a franchise any more, it's just lots of completely independent businesses and individuals. --Tango (talk) 19:56, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I was going to comment last night, right after the "Shakespeare" answer, that that was an oeuvre, not a franchise, but figured it would be nitpicking. μηδείς (talk) 03:22, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• So, is the answer Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter? μηδείς (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Jet2 Flight arriving at Edinburgh Scotland on Monday 15th October

Please can someone help. I know this is a ridiculous question to ask here, but I am picking someone up and don't know their flight number or arrival time. I have tried every other site I can think of but neither the online or telephone or airport systems can help me. All I get told is "This Flight has sold out" without giving any other information. If you can't help, thanks for reading this anyway? And we are supposed to live in the technologically advance information age? 80.192.67.152 (talk) 11:16, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Jet2's Flight Status page has a list - this is for Edinburgh in the next 12 hours. You'll have to check again on Monday though. If you know where they are coming from it will narrow it down even further. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Adam. That's very helpful. Much appreciated. 80.192.67.152 (talk) 12:05, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Finding all the Jet2 destinations from Edinburgh (and therefore presumably the points from which you can fly to Edinburgh), and then playing around with Edinburgh Airport's flight timetables page I can find out there will be four Jet2 arrivals tomorrow:

• 14:10 LS854 Venice
• 15:45 LS776 Alicante
• 16:15 LS858 Malaga
• 20:35 LS826 Prague

Of course, I we knew where they were coming from, it would have made the search much easier on my part. Astronaut (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Astronaut (and Adam), I really cannot sufficiently apologise for not including "from Venice" in my OP. I now know the arrival time as gleaned from your responses and cannot thank each of you enough. If it were at all possible, I would willingly buy you each a pint of good Scottish Beer (or a couple of large Drams of Glenkinchie) at the Airport, but failing that, may I invite each of you to partake of one (or several), and charge it to my "Wikipedia in good faith" account? Cheers - and thanks again. 80.192.67.152 (talk) 23:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done and it was nice :-) Astronaut (talk) 11:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Excellent. And yes, I did pick them up at Edinburgh Airport from Venice, where their flight was delayed for 2 hours. Seemingly, their flight number originates in Edinburgh and flies 2 sectors loaded with sufficient fuel for the return journey. But on this occasion, Edinburgh had insufficient supplies due to a technical problem at the nearby Grangemouth Refinery, and was able to offer only enough for the outward sector; the plane thus having to re-fuel at Venice. So I can now see why Airlines limit their online search times to 12 hours. Anyway, I joined you in several large drams (of Gordons Gin) which unfortunately could not be charged to my Wikipedia Goodwill Account.

All my best wishes for your kindness - and thanks again. 80.192.67.152 (talk) 16:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

October 14

Sharing Wikipedia articles on Facebook

i just wanna ask a simple question:will you in the future have a button some where to share what you put here with places like facebook cause i would totally like to put some things i read here that where really cool out there for the world to see more,but the no facebook status has it a bit on the why side.amanda titus. my email is [redacted].thank you. — Precedingunsigned comment added by 24.255.132.24 (talk) 01:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I added a title. StuRat (talk) 01:22, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that Facebook blocks Wikipedia pages ? If you put a link to this Q there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#Sharing_Wikipedia_articles_on_Facebook

What happens ? StuRat (talk) 01:25, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

The question is about a Facebook feature to "share" a website by posting a link to it in a certain way. Answered at Wikipedia:Help desk#Button for Facebook share. Please only post a question in one place. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:49, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

As long as we are exporting Wikipedia and not importing Facebook lol. Marketdiamond (talk) 03:05, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

How to do fish processors remove mercury from them?

Or do they not? Hasn't there been a process invented to remove all toxins from fish?

Or is there a government conspiracy that prevents such an invention from occurring? --70.179.167.78 (talk) 01:34, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

There could be a government conspiracy, but if it was any good, I guess we wouldn't know. HiLo48 (talk) 02:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Mercury removal would likely make the result into fish slurry, so not very appetizing. It would also make the result quite expensive. It's more sensible just to limit your consumption of fish so as to keep mercury to a safe level. StuRat (talk) 02:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

The idea of removing all toxins is nonsense. The idea of a government conspiracy is also nonsense. There have been several studies that looked at the possibility of reducing mercury levels in fish fillets or fish slices using chelating agents or other treatments, with moderately positive results, but as far as I can see there has been no uptake by industry. Looie496 (talk) 02:23, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Or you could just go mercury free with the healthy, omega loaded and now so plentiful they are giving it away in some parts of the U.S. . . Asian carp.  ;-) Marketdiamond (talk) 02:51, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Why would they be mercury free ? StuRat (talk) 02:58, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, they aren't actually mercury-free -- they aren't all that low really. But in general fresh-water fish such as catfish and trout have relatively low mercury levels. See our article on mercury in fish for more information. Looie496 (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Ears popping on flight

Do my ears pop while ascending/descending on a pressurized commercial airliner because the cabin is not perfectly pressurized? Would my ears still pop if the cabin was perfectly pressurized? Does this happen to military pilots in modern fighter jets like the F-22? Acceptable(talk) 17:22, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

As Cabin pressurization#Cabin altitude notes, they allow the cabin pressure to fall a bit as the plane ascends. If they kept cabin pressure at the 1 bar (or so) it was at ground level (as one business jet, mentioned in that article, does) then your ears wouldn't pop at all. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 17:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't that business jet that remains fully pressurized cause a problem when the door is opened at the destination, and the pressure suddenly equalizes, popping everyone's ears at once (unless the destination just happens to have identical air pressure) ? StuRat (talk) 18:25, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

They will have to take steps to gradually equalise as they approach the destination. A pressurised aircraft, unlike a spacecraft, is not a closed system, so varying the pressure is a matter of altering the settings of the cabin/bleed-air pressurisation system. A space capsule, which is a closed system during most of its flight, has to have valves which are opened in the lower stages of its descent to equalise the capsule pressure with the environment. As reentry capsule notes, the malfunction of this system caused the death of the crew of the Soyuz 11 reentry vehicle. --Finlay McWalterჷTalk 18:35, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

It's my understanding that military aircraft operate in much the same way (at lower altitudes; as they fly much higher, the pressure is allowed to fall at higher altitudes). Dressing for Altitude: U. S. Aviation Pressure Suits: Wiley Post to Space Shuttle p176 by Dennis R. Jenkins says the F-15 had a cabin pressure of 6.7 psi (15 psi is around 1 bar). Fighter pilots receive additional oxygen from a face mask and wear pressure suits. --Finlay McWalterჷTalk 17:46, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised they let it get that low. Wouldn't they black out if their oxygen mask fails ? Seems too risky. StuRat (talk) 18:26, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Pressurising the cabin places a mechanical pressure on the airframe. Fighter aircraft are, naturally, robustly constructed, but they fly so high (an F22 tops out at about 65,000 ft, more than double the ceiling of a 737) that 1 bar is a high additional load to bear. And the pilot has to be able to survive (and hopefully continue to operate) with the cabin depressurised due to damage or failure anyway, so the mask and suit has to be able to take the strain. The complexities of this system seem to be responsible for the problems F22 pilots have been reporting. SR71 pilots (who flew up to 85,000 ft) wore what amounted to space suits (see Lockheed SR-71_Blackbird#Life support) because of the risk of depressurisation (the cabin could be pressurised up to 10,000 ft) and to allow them to survive ejection (in theory). -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 18:45, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Time of useful consciousness at 6.7 psi (if I've done the conversions correctly) is about 10 minutes. That's plenty of time to put the plane into a steep descent as long as you notice the problem quickly enough (which can be difficult with a gradual failure - one of the symptoms ofhypoxia is not realising that you are hypoxic!). --Tango (talk) 19:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Eaaaars poppin' on flight.. afternoon delight! 203.112.82.1 (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

October 15

Alcohol-soluble window insulation foam ?

I'd like a spray-on foam that can be used to seal gaps around my windows in winter. My requirements:

1) Should foam up to fill in any gaps.

2) Should adhere well, because wind and changes in air pressure and temperature cause tape to come loose.

3) Shouldn't be water-soluble, since there may be condensation on window.

4) Should be easy to remove in summer, without leaving residue, when it's time to open windows again. This is somewhat incompatible with 2 and 3. Perhaps it could be alcohol-soluble, to aid in removal.

Is there any product like this out there ? StuRat (talk) 15:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I know you specified a foam, but "rope caulk" (e.g. [6] representative example, no product endorsement intended.) is the traditional material to use to seal cracks around windows, etc. where you want to be able to remove it in the spring. It's substantial, so it shouldn't be pushed around by air pressure, and if you install it correctly, will seal tightly, but will come away cleanly (and reusably) in the spring, with perhaps only a slight oily residue which can be cleaned up with soap and water or alcohol. If the gap is larger than the ~1/8th inch diameter of the rope caulk, they also sell (non-adhesive) foam backer rods which can be wedged into cracks to fill most of it, allowing something like rope caulk to seal the edges. Although, if it's that large of gap, you either should fix your window (because such a gap might indicate some other window issue), install some sort of permanent weatherstripping, or permanently fill it in (if it's between surfaces which don't move with respect to each other during typical window operation) with minimally expanding (so you don't slightly bow the window frame, resulting in a sticky window) spray foam probably would be your best bet. -- 205.175.124.30 (talk) 20:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, thanks. No foams then ? StuRat (talk) 19:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Access to personal online profiles following one's death

Not sure the best way to phrase the headline for this question, which is part of my problem finding info on this, so I thought maybe you guys/gals could help. Let me preface this by saying I can see how this may be interpreted as a type of legal question, but I am not asking for advice, or even a direct answer, here; rather just to point me in the right direction for further research:

With many of our personal files and records now kept online behind logins/passwords, I wonder what happens to the ability to access these records upon someone's death. It is my understanding that the executor of an estate can be granted access to online financial records (online banking, bill pay, etc) through a process that allows them to settle any financial holdings. But what about things like Flickr, Facebook, personal email and blogs? Things like family photos or personal papers would obviously have value to one's heirs, but I could also imagine circumstances in which a person might want their personal records to "die" along with them. Anyway, I know there is a legal element to this, so guess I'd just like to be pointed to some sources that discuss this, rather than "own experience" type answers. Thanks, Ditch ∝ 16:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I vaguely remember a magazine article about how some of those services are planning for that, something about along the same lines, where one provides some proof of another's death and relation to them to get access to those accounts. Unfortunately, I've got some source amnesia on this, but it would've been on either on Yahoo News or Buzzfeed at some point, maybe the Huffington Post. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

This article from Lifehacker might help, at least as a starting point for further research. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Facebook's current policy on dead members' accounts is here. No logins or passwords disclosed to anyone else; account will be "memorialized" on report of death; verified family members can request total removal. - Karenjc 18:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

And here's Google's. -- Vmenkov (talk) 17:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

How could I investigate if wealthy american climate change skeptics have made recent large land purchases in Canada?

Thanks.-Richard Peterson198.189.194.129 (talk) 22:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

First you would need a list of wealthy American climate change skeptics. It's possible someone has constructed such a list and posted it on the internet somewhere, but I suspect it's too broad a topic to canvass reliably. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:08, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Or you could start at the other end, with purchasers of large tracts of Canadian land. StuRat (talk) 04:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

She has HUUUUGE... tracts of land. --Jayron32 05:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The obvious answer is to check the article Wealthy American climate change skeptics who have made recent large land purchases in Canada. μηδείς (talk) 05:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, where are you going with that last comment? --Viennese Waltz 09:52, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Turns out Wikipedia doesn't have an article on everything...--Carnildo (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

To support Viennese Waltz, I had said something that could have been construed badly, but which hadn't been meant badly, so I deleted it, making their criticism seem perhaps overly strong, when really they were justified in bringing it to my attention. μηδείς (talk) 22:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd try looking up groups that profit from or advocate skepticism of climate change, and then see who's getting/giving the most money from/to those groups. You then have a list of wealthy climate change skeptics. From there, you need to get a list of people who have been making large land purchases in Canada. Compare the lists, and you'll have your answers. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Possible distorting factor: oil companies are widely regarded as benefitting from climate change skepticism (since it discourages people from seeking alternative power sources); oil companies have also engaged in lots of extensive land use in Canada recently in order to dredge tar sands - a source of oil, now that many of the most accessible subterranean reserves are depleted. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, good point.198.189.194.129 (talk) 23:07, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

How would I find out, Stu and others, if someone is buying land in Canada? Is this public information at some Canadian federal website? That is the "other end" I'm thinking of starting on, although starting with a list of skeptics is also under consideration.198.189.194.129 (talk) 23:04, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way I'm thinking you might not know the answer to my question and that's fine. But please don't, as cover, ridicule me with near tautologies, if that's what some of you were doing.216.86.177.36 (talk) 23:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you the same person as Richard Peterson aka 198.189.194.129? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

yup198.189.194.129 (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, those are public records, but there's no guarantee they post them online, and, even if they do, there's no reason to think they are available in an easily searchable database (I don't think US records are). That is, if you know the proper information you can find info on one tract at a time, but don't expect to be able to run an SQL statement against the DB to answer your question in a single query: SELECT FROM LAND_SALE_TABLE BUYER_LAST_NAME,BUYER_FIRST_NAME WHERE BUYER_CITIZENSHIP = "US" AND SALE_PRICE > $1000000. I suppose it's possible there might be such a capability, but don't hold your breath for: AND BUYER_CLIMATE_CHANGE_ATTITUDE = "DENIAL". :-) StuRat (talk) 02:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Land registry in Canada falls under provincial jurisdiction, so except for the northern territories and disposition of federally held Crown lands, the feds will be keeping their noses out of things. Each provincial registry will be a public record, but with different degrees of accessibility. For instance, Ontario handed over land registry to Teranet [7] and current records are searchable. British Columbia I believe also has an electronic database now. Naturally, you still have to pay to access bulk data, or go to a free-access registry terminal and write it all down by hand. Given that Canada is a vast land, the transactions will be similarly vast in number. Also, what about numbered companies (5678435 Ontario Ltd. bought a piece of land, does it deny global warming?) In fact for any corporate ownership, unless it triggers a FIRA review, I can't think of any records to show property title passing to a US corporation. So you have a tough road to follow to get your smoking gun proving whatever it is you're after. Franamax (talk) 03:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

See List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

99% of the 1%, skeptics or otherwise, don't like to have their financial affairs aired in public, e.g. Mitt Romney. Often(?), they'll transact their business through intermediary companies. So, what you're asking is nearly impossible. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, if land sales are public records in Canada, and the purchase price is included, that's a hint right there at the wealth of the individuals buying the land. StuRat (talk) 03:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

But not necessarily their identities or meteorological climatological beliefs. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Many provinces have strict rules about foreign ownership of land. One of the strictest is Alberta, where the oil mainly is: a foreigner can only own 20 acres, in two parcels or less. Of course it's easy to incorporate a company in Canada, but even then ownership and control of the company is strictly monitored. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 01:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the many thoughtful and helpful answers.-Rich Peterson198.189.194.129 (talk) 16:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

October 16

A Defunct News Summary Website

• http://cir.ca/

Circa News is a new iOS app that gives you condensed news. I think they hire copy editors to build shorted news for its readers. It reminds me of a short-lived news summary website, established or closed in maybe 2006.

I can't remember the details. I think they used to rewrite all news articles to less than 100 words. Anyway, they went out of business very soon. Anyone still remember that website? -- Toytoy (talk) 03:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Murder at 1600

If a dead body was really found at the White House in a bathroom stall by a cleaning lady, would the Metro Police have jurisdiction or would the FBI oversee an investigation? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Murders committed on federal property are handled by the FBI.[8]A8875 (talk) 05:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Your authoritative link is to TVTropes?

The FBI likes to point out that it is not a police force, so the question of conflicting police jurisdiction (whatever that means exactly, and I have to confess I'm not really sure) doesn't seem to come up. I am reasonably confident that the FBI would in fact investigate, which wouldn't in any way that I can see preclude the Metro Police from doing so as well. As to who would "seal the exits, make sure no one gets out until I've had a chance to interview everyone!" and that sort of thing, my guess would be the United States Secret Service. --Trovatore (talk) 00:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Maybe this is a better source (that's a podcast transcript from the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Apparently there are 3 types of federal properties: proprietary jurisdiction, exclusive jurisdiction and concurrent jurisdiction. Under proprietary jurisdiction the local police would handle all crimes. Under exclusive jurisdiction federal agencies would deal with all the crimes. Under concurrent jurisdiction it seems either the local police or the federal agencies can deal with any particular crime. I can't seem to find a reference for the jurisdiction of the White House, but it's possible it's concurrent jurisdiction, which would allow the local police to arrest someone on the premises.

What complicates the matter is that Washington DC itself is federal land. Since I'm not American, thinking about the interactions between state and federal levels gives me a headache, but maybe someone else can help out. Is the Metropolitan Police Force considered a federal agency? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 07:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting find. Note however that it refers to "federal officers and agents" doing law enforcement in the "exclusive jurisdiction" zones, not the FBI specifically. Could be the Secret Service, or could be the US Marshals Service; the latter is the agency that most closely resembles a "federal police force". (There's something called the FBI Police, but apparently they police FBI facilities specifically.) --Trovatore (talk) 18:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Question from a non-American here. The wikilink helped me to understand the title, which would otherwise have been meaningless to me, but is 1600 really a common nickname or similar for the White House in Washington? HiLo48 (talk) 17:06, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the White House is often referred to in very informal situations as "1600 Pennsylvania Avenue." That would be its street address if it were an ordinary building, because it is at the intersection of Pennsylvania Avenue and 16th Street NW. In reality, the street address is not used by the U.S. Postal Service. That street address would have the Zip Code 20006, while the White House has its own Zip Code, 20500.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 17:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have to slightly contradict Michael. The direct answer to HiLo's question is "no". Everyone knows that address, but only when Pennsylvania Avenue is attached. 1600 by itself does not specially denote the White House. --Trovatore (talk) 18:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Valid point. Thank you, Trovatore    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 18:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Urgent suggestion about photos and other info

I am an expert regarding a few topics related to aviation and I have thousands of photos which could significantly help out with many existing Articles but I do not possess the skill necessary to do direct editing. Your organization should provide for an ability for people like me (who which to contribute content and photos) to contact the most recent authors of a given wiki article and offer to provide info and photos etc. so that they can improve their own content. I suspect that wikipedia has lost a lot of content because of the difficulty of people like me who have important info but not the skills to navigate the wiki edit program. Thanks my email is (removed per policy) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.67.44.115 (talk) 13:58, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It's an interesting point. You could always leave a note on the talk page of an article about a subject for which you have a relevant image, explaining that you aren't able to upload it yourself. Maybe someone there will offer to upload it for you. The tutorial at Wikipedia:Uploading images is, by its own admission, rather technical, but that is because uploading images is a complex business. --Viennese Waltz 14:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

You can contact the most recent authors of a given Wikipedia article by picking the 'View History' tab at the top of the article, and then picking the 'talk' link by the name of the recent author; but that may nt be very helpful, because it's quite possible that the last few dozen edits were all copy-editing or reverting vandalism. A message on the article's talk page, as Viennese Waltz suggests, will probably reach the people who have an interest in that article. But you might have most success in finding collaborators if you post your request to Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Aviation. By the way, I would not call this urgent: Wikipedia has no deadlines. --ColinFine (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

In order for Wikipedia to to benefit from your generous suggestion, you will need to ask yourself three questions each time you identify a photograph you wish to offer. Is this image subject to copyright? Do I own the copyright, or have a way of contacting the copyright holder? And am I, or is the copyright holder, willing to license the image so that it can be reused in future by anyone who wants to do so, not just on Wikipedia but elsewhere? If you can answer no to the first one, or yes to all three, then that's brilliant and the above suggestions are the way to go, with Wikipedia:Files for upload also an option. If not, then that particular image may be uploaded only in very limited circumstances, if at all. - Karenjc 20:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Note also that if you do contribute images in all the proper forms, some busybody will come along in a few months, change the required templates, and mark all the images for deletion because you didn't include your great aunt's maiden name. Henry^Flower 04:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

As far as editing it, others can come along later and clean it up, as long as you first upload it with a clear copyright and place a link to it in the appropriate article (or talk page). I just recently did so myself, with a picture that was scanned, along with a ragged edge. It was simple to trim off the ragged edge and upload the modified version. Note that this instantly updates all links to the pic. StuRat (talk) 06:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

English country house - name that house

Name that buidling.

A picture of Edward Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfolk, right, has been uploaded to the Commons. The description alleges the Duke is pictured in front of Euston Hall, Yorkshire. We have nothing on that. We do have Euston Hall in Suffolk, which doesn't look like the same place. Duke of Norfolk#Residences may or may not help. Note there's also a possibility, of course, that the image isn't the 18th Duke of Norfolk. Or that I'm confusing myself from start to finish. Name that building. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

As you suggested, I clicked each link in Duke of Norfolk#Residences. Compare the picture at Carlton Towers. —Tamfang (talk) 18:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Couldn't see for looking. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Is it perhaps Euston Hall, Yorkshire 92.0.98.72 (talk) 18:54, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

No, 92, Tamfang had already identified it by the time you posted that, and Google doesn't know about a "Euston Hall" in Yorkshire. --ColinFine (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done

For the curious Euston Hall is in Suffolk (unless there's another one nobody knows about). Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It just wouldn't be nice to change the caption on the photo of Euston Hall to read, "The Duke of Grafton (right)...", would it? --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 01:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

October 17

Plants in China and Japan

What kinds of native trees (or other plants) were common in China and Japan prior to significant trade with the West? --168.7.232.77 (talk) 06:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Most of the same ones that are common there now. Your question presumes that trade with the west had a significant effect on the native vegetation, but you offer no evidence to support that assumption. Roger (talk) 07:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

If you set the cut-off as before Columbus, you can say China and Japan had no New World plants - maize, chili peppers, pumpkins/squash, tomato, potato, etc. See Columbian Exchange. Rmhermen (talk) 14:53, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

A great read on this is 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created which spends a considerable portion on the ecological changes wrought in Asia as a result of introduction of New World species. Indeed, one of the great things about the book is the way that it emphasize the importance of America-Asian exchange in the way that other works, like the Columbian Exchange doesn't; which tended to focus heavily (perhaps too heavily) on America-Europe exchanges. --Jayron32 18:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget rubber! --Mr.98 (talk) 22:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Another angle on this is "what plant species have been introduced to China and Japan after trade with the west?" As Roger points out, most of the plants that were there before are still there, but there are new additions to the communities. For starters, see List_of_invasive_species_in_Asia#Plants. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

What plants are common in China and Japan? --128.42.223.58 (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

An uncountable number of them. It'd be well beyond the scope of a board like this to start listing every "common" plant in China and Japan, for any definition of "common". --Jayron32 19:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The trade went the other way really; European plant hunters scoured Asia for exotic specimens to sell at home. Trees that spring to mind are Japanese maple, Dove tree and swamp cypress, but there were many others. Alansplodge (talk) 22:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Apologies; one major introduction has been the Eucalyptus, "China has the second largest (to Brazil) planting of Eucalyptus in the world"[9], although it actually came from the south east rather than the west. Alansplodge (talk) 22:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Blank?

I have just received a sheaf of papers from an insurance company, (OK Saga, if you must know), one of which, suitably with the companies headed paper has the note "Left intentionally blank" on it. How can it be 'blank', with that wording on it? Are they or me mad?,--85.211.148.178 (talk) 07:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

See Intentionally blank page. HiLo48 (talk) 07:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

As for your second question, we cannot give medical advice here. Please consult an appropriate health professional to confirm that you are in fact insane, or not, as the case may be. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:21, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

What has blank pages got to do with insanity/mental health. It is not a subject to joke too much about, it results in misconceptions about the behaviour of mentally ill people. I find it offensive. HiLo has clarified the first part of the question, I would not for a moment think of saying you are less than wordly-wise. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 14:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Caesar's Daddy - Jack of Oz stated that his reply was in relation to the second question, which was "Are they or me mad?". It was a light hearted comment on that part, and on it's own that could be considered a request for medical help... FYI on this desk most things written in small font are tongue-in-cheek, or an attempt at humour........ gazhiley 14:30, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Does the question "Are ..me mad?" suggest multiple personalities? Edison (talk) 15:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Not to me. HiLo48 (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Which of you said that? Hi, Lo, or one of the other 48? -- Q Chris (talk) 08:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I recall IBM computer manuals from the early 1970s that had pages with that self-contradictory statement. I assumed then, and still do, that its purpose is to let the reader know that there isn't any important text missing from the page. It's amusing, but it's not madness. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:57, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

GUNS

WHAT GUN MAKER MADE OVER &UNDER GUNS WITH A RIFLE OVER A SHOTGUN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.181.27 (talk) 09:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Please don't type in all capital letters. It makes it appear as though you are SHOUTING. To answer your question, Wikipedia has an article titled Combination gun that has some information. You can also type "rifle over shotgun" into Google, and you get these results, the many of which contain information you could use. --Jayron32 13:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Prevalence of teenagers making up personas and telling complicated made-up stories about their lives on the Internet

From some teenagers I know, I heard some rather incredible stories about the lives of their "friends on the Internet." Apparently these young people have really sad and complicated lives - something I'd think of as "daytime talk show material." I'm incredulous and suspect that those young people are just making up stories to make their lives sound more interesting and to mess with their "friends" on the 'net. Is this a know phenomenon? How prevalent is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.98.54 (talk) 12:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Some folks have always told tall tales about themselves to impress others, whether on the 'net or on the streetcorner. I knew an instance of some junior high students telling about a begger they had met on the street who was "actually an African prince who'd fled his country and was living as a street person as part of his training before he became ruler later on." I met a woman who said her boyfriend had tried to kill her and had cut off her arm, but surgeons had sewed it back on (it looked pretty healthy to have gone through such trauma.). Wikipedia has people who misrepresent their circumstances, such as was disclosed in the Essjay controversy. How does one deal with it? Not all amazing stories are false. Everyone has had some interesting experiences, and it is annoying when you tell someone about one and they respond dismissively "Well, at least that is a good story." One can be polite and still take someone's amazing story with a grain of salt when it triggers the bullshit detector.Greater caution is indicated when the tale teller needs something like a place to stay, the loan of money or the use of your car, than when they are just looking for sympathy or admiration. Edison (talk) 15:10, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Münchausen by Internet is certainly relevant here. - Karenjc 17:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The anonymity of the internet allows people to choose any persona or personality they want. It's just unfortunate that many, especially young people, choose the 'idiot' personality. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:19, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Teenagers (and adults!) told tall tales long before the discovery of electricity, let alone the invention of the Internet. Far worse are the professional skeptics, who disbelieve anything out of their version of ordinary and bring sneering, withering, jackholean contempt to every conversation. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 01:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's constant. Get over it. Don't give them WP:BEANS. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Ever see someone die of an allergic reaction after a contemptuous sneering jackhole decided to "prove" that their allergy was in their neurotic inferior subhuman little head, and slip an allergen into their food? Distrusting other people is putting one's own irrational, narcissistic need for ego-stroking ("look how smart and superior I am compared to inferior gullible you") over other people's safety. Stupid, dangerous, and something any sensible person "gets over" by the time they reach fourteen. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 02:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That is not an example of scepticism, that is an example of general ignorance, and I can't really see the relevance (or the logic) in regard to the OPs question in your heated rant reply. --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

On the one hand, people (especially teenagers) will make stuff up, create sad or dramatic personas. On the other hand, just about everybody has some sadness and difficulty in their life that they rarely talk about, and they are more likely to bring it up pseudonymously online. And the more difficult it is for someone to spend time doing things in the fleshworld, the more time they'll spend doing things online. 86.159.77.170 (talk) 12:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course, like 'Nigerian princes' or 'American soldiers who serve in Afghanistan' suddenly finding huge amounts of money they don't want to give to their commanding officer, but would, instead, like to give it to YOU, via a courier (suspiciously) from Ghana, so long as you continuously pay the courier's fees. They think we are all stupid, but I can actually find out where the messages are coming from. Simple IT stuff that I teach to children. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

OP - this kind of perception is why young people talk about killing themselves/shooting up the school/running away etc on the net and people don't take them seriously and are then surprised when they do exactly that. Unless someone has a previous history for "crying wolf" then you should always give them the benefit of the doubt. Suicide threats should ALWAYS be taken seriously as should threats to shoot bullies, even if previously nothing has come of them - the very fact they are even thinking about this kind of stuff is a danger sign of emotional disturbance that needs professional assistance. Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 19:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I would like to strap two hand grenades on either side of my ex-mother-in-law's head and make her choose which pin to pull out first, but I wouldn't consider myself emotionally disturbed or in need of professional assistance or in danger of actually doing that (I can't find a place that sells hand grenades). However, any talk of violence on the internet, whether it be self-harm or violence to others should be taken at least a little bit seriously, as the above poster says, as it may come to fruition. It may just be a little rant, as people like to get stuff off their chest and typing it anonymously on the internet is the easiest way to do it. Why do you think confessional booths in churches are private, and the priest can't even see you without sliding the curtain? It's the same thing. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Uncirculated Coins

After a bit of WikiSurfing around today's featured article, I ran across pages about bullion coins like the American Silver Eagle, which mentions that the mint makes several varieties of these coins, including "uncirculated" coins. This puzzled me, as bullion coins don't do much circulating to begin with. The article Uncirculated coin explains that the US Mint uses "uncirculated" to refer to a special minting method, but doesn't go into details. What's the difference in minting process between a "regular" US coin and an "uncirculated" US coin? -- 205.175.124.30 (talk) 20:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

You should start by reading our article about uncirculated coins. Also, the U.S. Mint has information here.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 22:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I had already read the uncirculated coin article, hence my linking to it and discussing what it said. Your second link was quite helpful, though. Thanks. -- 205.175.124.30 (talk) 18:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

As that article says, uncirculated coins can be bought directly from the Mint and collectors do this yearly. I have sets going back decades. However it'd be trivial to open them up and use them, and they're otherwise identical to normal coins (I think... correct me if I'm wrong). Proofs, the article says at least, are a type of uncirculated coins, but if you ever look at pricing guides they'll distinguish between "uncirculated" and "proof" coins, proof being more valuable. Modern U.S. proof sets are buffed and polished so the raised features are matte and the low ones are shiny. Uncirculated coins are not, however they're otherwise in flawless condition. Shadowjams (talk) 20:09, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I wrote the article in question, so I suppose I should answer the question. The short answer is, there is none. "Uncirculated" is a generic term for coins which are not proofs in the condition they come from the Mint, or only slight wear. Even though the Silver Eagles do not circulate, that is their condition (although they are available in proof). Coins struck for collectors in uncirculated don't differ from their circulating equivalent, although the Mint will take care to have well-struck coins with the minimum of contact marks (abrasions). Proof coins are struck on polished blanks from dies which are usually polished to some extent, and most proofs today (some in the past differ) have a mirror finish. So uncirculated means the standard method, but for proof coins, it is a careful process, with high quality control.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:41, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Name of drawing gadget needed

I'm trying to recall what an item for tracing I used years ago is called, but I'm not having any luck. It was very simple, possibly aimed at children, and was basically a dark blue, transparent piece of plastic that you put by a picture you wanted trace, and it reflected enough that you could look through it and copy the picture on the other side. The closest thing I've found is a lightbox, but it's nowhere near as complicated as that. Can anyone help me? Thanks! Snorgle (talk) 21:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like the Camera lucida. These were advertised in comic books years ago with the claim “You Can Draw Your Family, Friends, Anything from real­—like an artist, even if you can't draw a straight line." The ad made it look like there was an image projected on the paper of the subject in front of the artist, but rather than an elaborate projector it was just a piece of plastic at a 45 degree angle which reflected the image of the subject toward the artist's eye, while letting him see the image he was drawing on the sheet of paper. Skill and practice were needed to make a good drawing. If the artist moved his head a little, the drawing no longer lined up, and the image was washed out and indistinct. Some of the old masters may have used an earlier version of the camera lucida to get the perspective right in their photo-realistic paintings. Edison (talk) 22:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

A magic tracer also known as a camera lucida? 212.183.128.70 (talk) 22:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the "magic tracer" is what I was looking for! Based on the camera lucida though, which I didn't know, so thanks for the information. Snorgle (talk) 22:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It can be yours for $11.75 [10]. Alansplodge (talk) 01:20, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

These days there are far better ways to do the same thing. The simplest is to put a photo under some tracing paper. That way you don't have to worry about the subject moving. Or, you could scan the pic (or start with a digipic) and do the tracing over it on computer. StuRat (talk) 02:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why you'd think tracing paper was a better option: do you think microscopists just didn't think to buy some tracing paper? When you trace onto tracing paper, you have to press (however lightly) onto the thin surface over the image you are copying, and you need a pre-existing flat 2D image. Your final image will be on a piece of tracing paper, unless you now trace it a second time from your copy, using one of a variety of techniques. The opportunity for error multiplies. 86.159.77.170 (talk) 06:41, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This device came before photography, so tracing a photograph wasn't an option. StuRat (talk) 07:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I think both of you have a point. It's true the Camera lucida was invented before photography. It's undoutedly also true that what you describe was a better substitute for camera lucida at various times. In fact our article mentions how 'photographic pioneer Henry Fox Talbot' may have been partly inspired by disappointed with the results of a camera lucida. However 86 has a point that there was clearly many cases when tracing paper wasn't suitable hence why as our own article mentions, it continued to be used by 'comprehensive ("comp") layout artists' in the 'early 1950s to late 1980'; and why as our article also mentions it was a standard tool for microscopists until a few decades ago. And unless Edison and Snorgle are actually older then the oldest known people in the world, we can safely assume they're referring to cases well after photography was not only invented but likely somewhat mainstream. Of course photography was still somewhat expensive, more so if you needed to attach one to your microscope (as our article mentions) hence why even after photography was fairly mainstream, a camera lucida still had an appeal to a variety of people. Perhaps the largest nail in the coffin of the camera lucida was what you hinted at near the end of your post, the move to digital both in image construction, capture and reproduction and the resulting changes, particularly cost savings and ease of use. (Although our article suggests it's still a key tool for palaeontology.) Nil Einne (talk) 13:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

A better (non-digital) method than either tracing paper or the camera whotsit, is the pantograph, which was used to accurately copy engineering drawings. It also allows you to reduce or enlarge the image. I had a toy plastic one in the 1960s which worked rather well until it broke when I stood on it. Alansplodge (talk) 17:52, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I still have a "proper" one, designed for copying engineering drawings. I don't use it, of course, but it's a nice antique, along with my slide rules. StuRat (talk) 18:12, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Building at a 2012 chinese postage stamp

Hi, maybe somebody from London can help me. I need to know which building or house is depicted at this chinese postage stamp dedicated to the London Olympics (the one with the jockey and horse)? Thanks. Leonprimer (talk) 21:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Venues of the 2012 Summer Olympics and Paralympics suggests that Greenwich Park may be depicted there. Not sure which building exactly. --Jayron32 21:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

This is rather amusing - they seem to have depicted Old Greenwich Church, Connecticut by mistake. Unbelievable. Alansplodge (talk) 21:57, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Snort. That's funny. I don't know if it is positive they did depict that church, but it is strikingly close. --Jayron32 22:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Well the notable churches near Greenwich Park in London are St Alphege's Church, Greenwhich, Our Lady Star of the Sea RC Greenwich and All Saints, Blackheath. All of these have prominent spires rather than a tower. The famous Royal Observatory in the park has a tower with a sort of dome affair. The most famous venue for equestrian events is Badminton, Gloucestershire, but the church there has a quite distinctive tower. I found the Greenwich, Connecticut photo doing a Google image search (probably what the Chinese post office did too). Unless anyone has any better suggestions; there are many hundreds of churches in London, but this certainly isn't a notable one. Alansplodge (talk) 01:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

It must not to be only a church, but another king of building, isn't it? Leonprimer (talk) 19:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The tower resembles that of the Globe Theatre, but the rest of the shape is not quite like that.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 01:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Except that the reconstructed Globe doesn't seem to have a tower.[11] Alansplodge (talk) 01:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Well, the lower section of the roof on the left is strongly reminiscent of a chancel - that combined with the bell tower and gothic windows is typical of a British, or indeed American church building. I don't live very far from Greenwich but can't think of anything there that it could be. Why they didn't depict the World Heritage view[12] that the equestrian events overlooked, I can't imagine. If it's supposed to be somewhere else in London, then I am still completely baffled - I have lived in London all my life. Alansplodge (talk) 01:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Another Londoner here - it really doesn't look like anything around here, and conversely, it really does look like the Greenwich, CT image mentioned above. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Are the better pictures then the one linked above of the church that I'm missing? From the sole picture I've seen, I wouldn't say the church is that similar, there seem to be a number of differences. It's perhaps similar then all of what's been presented so far, but that doesn't really tell us much. In particular the fact that people familiar with the area can't think of anything it would be could just indicate it's not that great a depiction and people who actually know the building may therefore not recognise it. A better sign would be someone from Greenwich, CT saying they think it's the church or even better someone intimately familiar with the London particularly Greenwich area and also the Greenwich CT church. Nil Einne (talk) 22:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

October 18

Who is the Jonathan King in this photo?

Resolved

 – Consensus is that it is indeed the JK.

Which Jonathan King?

Is the photo File:Jonathan King Allan Warren.jpg of Jonathan King, or some other Jonathan King? Allan Warren is the photographer. Google image search for Jonathan King--Tagishsimon (talk) 02:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't see any obvious reason why it couldn't be 'the' Jonathan King - Allan Warren seems to have been photographing notables from the music business at the time the photo is supposed to have been taken - and if you look at the photo gallery on Warren's article, the 'posed' style seems similar. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:32, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't see the resemblance, and I cannot see another JK image with a beard. The posed style seems immaterial - we know it's by AW and hence in his style; that would apply were it to be another JK. I accept that 'the' JK is highly likely given AW's interests, but I'm still yet to be convinced. And for whatever reason, AW's not talking. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:40, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

JK image with beginnings of beard: [13]. From what I remember, the fashion for full face-fungus amongst the mainstream UK 'pop' crowd was relatively short-lived, so there may not be that much evidence about. As with most questions regarding photos, authenticity is going to be difficult to prove short of a statement by JK and/or AW though. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The resemblance seems pretty clear to me. --Viennese Waltz 07:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I would have recognised it as Jonathan King. I dimly recall him wearing a beard every now and then during the 1970s. Alansplodge (talk) 12:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's another picture of the bearded King; Jonathan King - Lazy Bones, and another with similar glasses to the original post. Alansplodge (talk) 13:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Both these discs date from 1971, thus giving us a datum point for his hirsuteness. Alansplodge (talk) 17:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ethnic food

What areas have the healthiest and least healthy ethnic foods? --168.7.239.131 (talk) 04:20, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, soul food is among the worst, although even that has a few healthy items. See Soul_food#Healthiness. StuRat (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

One might want to consider the French paradox. Bus stop (talk) 04:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

And see Mediterranean diet. Duoduoduo (talk) 13:53, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Japan, specifically Okinawa Island has been mentioned as having a very healthy local cuisine. --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:00, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Not sure whether or not it would pass the "ethnic" classification bar, but surely Scottish food has to be considered in terms of being particularly unhealthy... gazhiley 10:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Healthy, schmealthy. Virtually all foods can figure somewhere on a healthy diet, and virtually all foods can figure somewhere on a disastrously unhealthy diet. It's the quantities of each foodstuff; and the frequency of eating; and whether a particular foodstuff is eaten hourly, daily or less often; and whether eating occurs because of actual hunger or some emotional need; and the combinations of foods; and other lifestyle factors such as exercise and sleep - that collectively add up to health. No particular cuisine, in isolation from all these other factors, is inherently healthier or unhealthier than any other. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Some cuisines are inherently healthier than others. That is, if you want to eat soul food, you'd need to make a lot more compromises (skipping most of the items or eating tiny portions of them, for example) to end up healthy, than if you ate the Okinawa diet. StuRat (talk) 22:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly my point. When people say "I eat only American food", say, that is as vague a statement as you can possibly get. The precise foodstuffs eaten by different people making such a statement could be vastly different. Not to mention all the other factors I mentioned above. A person can eat an Okinawan diet and still die of clogged arteries and heart failure; and a person can eat a Scottish diet and be extremely healthy. The gross factor of the ethnicity of the cuisine plays virtually no part in this. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it's damn near impossible to die from clogged arteries if you live your whole life on the Okinawa diet. StuRat (talk) 23:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

So, assuming that Okinawans are not immortal, what do they typially die from? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Rrrghl, the Okinawan diet! μηδείς (talk) 22:07, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

WHAAOE. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

It talks a lot about what they don't die from, but I didn't see anything about what they do die from. My guess is overdosing on sweet potatoes (blecch!). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:08, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

And all it talks about is the particular items of food that might be eaten. But each person has their own subset of those foods that they prefer. It doesn't talk about the 80/20 rule*, or their amazingly active lifestyles, and not just as young people but well into advanced age. These both play very important roles in keeping them healthy. Eat an Okinawan diet but gorge yourself at every meal and never do any exercise, and you'll finish up as unhealthy as anyone else.

(* This is the practice whereby one eats till one is about 80% of the way towards being "full", then stops. Okinawans always leave the table with the feeling that they could easily eat more if they had to. But what they have eaten is plenty for their body to make good use of, and to keep them going till next meal. This is very different from the massive overloads that many Westerners subject themselves to constantly, often without being aware they're doing so. This is a much more immediate concern than the makeup of whatever it was they ate. Overloading on salad can be just as bad for your health as overloading on chocolate.) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a difference between Okinawa diet and Okinawa food. If you stuffed yourself with Okinawan braised pork for the rest of your life you will die from heart failure just as easily as if the pork was Scottish. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd think cancer might be a big killer. There's all those chemicals that bio-accumulate in the fish they eat, UV in the sunlight, and, if we're talking about people dying off now, the residual radiation from Nagasaki and Hiroshima and subsequent nuclear tests in the area may play a factor. Then, of course, there's smoking. StuRat (talk) 05:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Cancer? Er, no.

• They were lean, youthful-looking, energetic, and had remarkably low rates of heart disease and cancer-even stomach cancer, which claimed many mainland Japanese. [14]
• Okinawa's elders (aged > 70 years) and centenarians in particular, also seem to have experienced a slower age-related decline and markedly delayed or avoided entirely the chronic diseases of aging, such as Alzheimer's Disease, cardiovascular disease and cancer. [15]

Eat a lot of fish? Er, no.

• The traditional diet also includes a relatively small amount of fish (less than half a serving per day) and somewhat more in the way of soy and other legumes (6% of total caloric intake). Pork was highly valued, and every part of the pig was eaten, including internal organs. However, pork and fish were primarily eaten on holidays, and the everyday diet was almost exclusively plant based. ... The traditional Okinawa diet as described above has been practiced on the islands till the end of the World War II. Since then, dietary practices have been shifting towards Western and Japanese patterns, with fat intake rising to 27% of total caloric intake and the sweet potato being supplanted with rice and bread. ... their life expectancy rank among Japanese prefectures has plummeted in recent years. Okinawa diet. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Indian Space Research Organization

How close are the ties between ISRO and the Indian military? --168.7.232.144 (talk) 05:05, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Our article mentions some interaction and resistance in the Applications section. Rmhermen (talk) 18:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ulan Bator

Is $800 USD per month enough to live on in Ulan Bator, taking apartment costs out of the question (because they are free for the job I've applied for)? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Haven't lived there myself, but Google searches for "cost of living Ulan Bator" or similar will turn up a number of sites like this one. Prices appear to be somewhat lower than in the west, and significantly lower than in major cities like London or New York. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

If you don't have any housing costs and you're willing to live reasonably frugally, then $800/month (after tax) is enough to live on pretty much anywhere. After rent and utilities (which I'm assuming you are including in "apartment costs"), I don't spend much more than that a month and I live quite comfortably in London, one of the most expensive cities in the word. --Tango (talk) 18:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I smoke 10 a day, which is not too much and drink about 4-6 pints a day. I don't eat much. In the UK I was spending about £600 a month. so I suppose it will be OK. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Smoke 10 what a day ? Those smokes and beers will be hard to get there. They likely have something to smoke and drink, but don't expect it to be comparable to what you're used to. StuRat (talk) 06:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The key is lifestyle. If you simply cannot live without some foreign brand -- breakfast food, shampoo, toilet paper -- you'll pay heavily for it. However, there is almost certainly a local (or cheap imported) substitute that will fill the same need at a low cost. Second, how frequently do you need to get outdoors and walk in a relatively comfortable climate? Don't count on it for 8-10 months of the year. OR: in late July / early August, there can be frost on the ground. DOR (HK) (talk) 02:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Not a worry about frost. I am from the North of England, and I'm used to the cold. If it gets too cold, I'll just put multiple coats on. When I came back from Japan for a visit in July 2004, I was freezing during a barbecue, and my uncle took a photo of me and told me to send it to my wife, saying, "England isn't really cold. We only wear ten coats in the summer." :) KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

There's really no comparison between the climate in the North of England and Ulan Bator. They have 3 months where the record low is -44°C: Ulan_Bator#Geography_and_climate. More coats isn't enough at those temps. You need every bit of skin to be covered with many layers of insulation, and need to preheat and moisten the air before you breath it, to prevent lung damage (or, more sensibly, stay inside during those months). StuRat (talk) 06:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any references for that? Our article says there are a million people living in Ulan Bator, and they seem to manage just fine. I doubt they can avoid going outside all winter and I also doubt they have any way to preheating the air they breath (other than having some cloth over their face and breathing through that). Ulan Bator is certainly colder than Yorkshire, but it's evidently not uninhabitable (and I would characterise anywhere where you can't safely breath the air as uninhabitable). --Tango (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The natives, having descended from many generations of people who live in such climates, have adapted to the climate both physically and behaviorally (since those of their ancestor who did not, died before passing on their genes). This likely includes staying inside at the coldest times, unless absolutely necessary. As far as preheating and premoistening the air, yes, that means not breathing it directly, but only after it has passed through layers of cloth, and mixed with exhaled air. This does decrease breathing efficiency, so adaptations are needed there, too, like increased lung capacity and tolerance for carbon dioxide, to compensate. StuRat (talk) 21:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Stu, I went to school in Tianjin and visited Inner Mongolia several times for study trips during the winter when it was -40C. It didn't bother me. It was cold, yes, but not so much as to fry my lungs. I've had my fair share of cold places, believe me. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Stu, those two replies are complete nonsense. You don't need multiple layers of insulation for everyday activities. It's the outer garment that is the important part. In fact I've worn this and this to walk 4 km (2.5 mi) at −40 °C (−40 °F) in a blizzard. Multiple layers, such as insulated underwear and such, do have their place but not really for city living. Nor is it necessary to cover every bit of skin. The only time I've worn a Balaclava (clothing) is while out for hours on a snowmobile where the problem isn't the temperature but the air passing across your face. You most certainly don't need to preheat or moisten your air before breathing. I've never seen anybody suffer lung damage because of cold air and that includes non-Inuit spending their first winter in the Arctic. Staying inside is really not an option when you have to go to work, hunt, go to the store or just go for a walk. Yep, we actually have people who walk every day of the year for exercise. You can't look at the extreme low and say anything useful about the climate. Take the average high and add to the average low and divide by 2 to get a rough mean, of −18.8 °C (−1.8 °F) (Dec), −21.5 °C (−6.7 °F) (Jan) and −17.8 °C (0.0 °F) (Feb) and you can see that the climate is much milder than looking at the record lows. Look at Edmonton#Climate. Their record lows for the same three months are colder than Ulan Bator but the daily means are higher. So which is the colder city. I've lived for 19 years in Ulukhaktok#Climate and 18 years Cambridge Bay#Climate. We have daily means of colder than −30 °C (−22 °F) and manage to live through it without having multiple generations adapting to it. The only concession we make here to the cold is that when the temperature alone dips below −40 °C (−40 °F) or the wind chill reaches -40 the primary school kids stay indoors at recess time. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 02:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

That's plenty. I live very comfortably on ~$500 per month south a bit in Shenyang, Liaoning, China and the conditions are not dramatically different. Provided you embrace local cuisine and products and don't insist on foreign brands, you'll have plenty of money. Hopefully the position pays more than that though, so you can save a bit, as I do here. The Masked Booby (talk) 06:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I have a translation business, and this pays enough. I just hope they supply me an internet connection so I can do it. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If they have an Internet connection, I wouldn't expect it to be reliable. (If it goes down, I'm sure they'll get it back up in a month or so.) StuRat (talk) 06:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Stu, I don't understand why you are so negative. I lived in Tianjin, China, and travelled to Mongolia (inner) in winter, and yes, it was cold, but it wasn't a problem. Also, they had their own brands of cigarettes - many without filters, and pretty terrible beer (at the time). I am, of course, worried about the internet connection, because I need this for my job, but I am pretty sure I will have one, because the job is at a university, and I would need it for that job, too. Mongolia is not all Asian cowboys, you know. They have cities, with people who live in them. It's not like Kansas. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, you have to understand that moving to a third world nation will mean many compromises. Another is electricity. It may be unreliable. StuRat (talk) 18:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Cheers, Stu, but after 17 years of travelling around the world, I think I know the score. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Wait on, give the guy a break. Stu's just wanting to give you the benefit of his many years spent in Ulan Bator, Mongolia, which would be as good as a reference. Isn't that right, Stu? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

True, I must apologize. I am asking for info from people who know about living there, from experience, and Stu appears to know everything. I shall wait for Stu to reply with more vast information which I can use. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I do have years of experience with climates considerably colder than one gets in the North of England. StuRat (talk) 21:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

However, this has nothing to do with electricity and internet connections. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I've had beer from nearby Heilongjiang before (sorry I can't remember the brand) and it was acceptable. If your imports are Chinese or Russian, rather than American or Czech, you can probably do just fine. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

My experience of Chinese beer has been pretty poor. I had Lidu and Beijing Wuxing, and both were terrible - they stunk of chemicals. Qingdao is palatable, but still pretty bad, compared to UK beer. American beer is like making love in a canoe, and Czech is too bubbly, too. I have never had Russian beer, so we will see. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, here I must protest. "American beer" is not just Budweiser and Coors, you know. Try an Arrogant Bastard sometime, if you think you're worthy. --Trovatore (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, there is a type of beer in the UK, aptly named 'Cripple Dick', and apparently if you can drink a pint of that very quickly, and then walk around the brewery without falling over, they give you the brewery. But this is getting slightly off-topic. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Arrogant Bastard is not just about alcohol content. I mean, it's strong for beer, about seven percent I think, but there are stronger ones; that's not what the name is about. --Trovatore (talk) 09:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Having had some Arrogant Bastard on my last vacation, I have to say that being about as different from Bud Light as possible may seem like a good thing for a beer, but indeed just makes it horrible in a very different kind of way. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, well, if AB is too much for you, you might ease into the West Coast style with Censored Ale by Lagunitas Brewing Company. Or maybe you're just used to German beer. Personally I don't like German beer (too dry and without floral notes to compensate for the dryness), so we might just have no common point of reference here. --Trovatore (talk) 21:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, ABA tasted as if someone dropped a pot of petunias into cold instant coffee to me. But de gustibus non disputandum and so on. I've had decent beer in Germany, the UK, and Belgium, but I'm not much of a beer drinker, so my sample rate is low. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:26, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

A search for 'Irish pub' in Ulan Bator might be relevant here. Astronaut (talk) 16:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

informations about expensys

Hereby, I would like to ask you if EXPENSYS is an institution that exists and actually works to what can be trusted or that are escroqueries.I would want need to buy a mobile phone but they require to pay before send the produit. Thank to inform me and give me a more reliable address — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ndabut (talk • contribs) 18:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

We do have an article on Expansys, which I think is what you mean, although it's not a particularly developed article yet and needs a lot of work. If you type "expansys review" into Google you may find some more useful information from people who have actually dealt with the company. - Karenjc 18:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ndabut, thank you for that lovely word "escroquerie". It's already one of my favourite words. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

October 19

Child Support

Can the Child Support agency give a 72A notice to a company that a self employed person cleans for? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.230.0.149 (talk) 08:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Which one? Child Support Agency is the UK agency. Child Support Agency (Australia) is ... in another place. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The House of Lords?--Wehwalt (talk) 13:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

LOL. Members of the Australian Parliament always used to refer to the house of which they were not a member as "the other place" or "another place", based on British parliamentary tradition. But they don't seem to do it any more. Now it's "that unrepresentative swill" or similar. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

In any case, we cannot give legal advice here (as it says at the top of the page). Sorry. --ColinFine (talk) 13:56, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That sounds very much like a request for information, not advice, to me. --Viennese Waltz 14:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The term "72A notice" seems to refer to Section 72A of the Australian Child Support (Registration and Collection) Act 1988 which says; "Registrar may collect child support related debts from a third person". I think anything else is going to fall into "legal advice". Alansplodge (talk) 16:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Since the IP address suggest the OP is in Australia, the starting point to find relevant information would seem to be on this page. However, that page doesn't explicitly mention self employed people. Maybe that is covered under a different section, maybe it depends on the precise nature of your contract with company where you clean. Whatever the case, you are probably better seeking the advice of your lawyer rather then random strangers on the internet who are probably not familiar with Australian law. Astronaut (talk) 16:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Page Creation

How Do I check the pending status of a page creation I submitted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertB 12th (talk • contribs) 09:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a link to your contribution or perhaps the IP address you were using when you created it? It looks like this is the first edit you have ever made. For the future though, you will want to ask questions about editing Wikipedia at the help desk. Livewireo (talk) 14:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Chick-fil-A and international expansion

Hopefully this will be the last in a series of questions I ask about American restaurants. This time, the question is focused on a specific restaurant, in this case Chick-fil-A. As mentioned in my previous question, many regional chains don't expand internationally, although many of the largest do (I'm not sure if Applebee's is a regional chain, but they do have branches overseas). Chick-fil-A is one of the most prominent examples of a regional chain in the US, best known for being Christian conservative and aggressively protecting their intellectual property, but only has branches in the United States. My question is, have they ever made statements about expanding into Canada or any other international market? The article states that they will first expand nationally, but have they ruled out international expansion in the near future? Even White Castle once had an international presence, although they failed. Chick-fil-A, on the other hand, appears to have never ever tried opening a branch abroad. Is their being Christian conservative a major factor in their decision to not expand internationally? And is their being aggressive in protecting their intellectual property a major reason why they are only in the US? Or is the reason why they haven't expanded an economic one? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I haven't got a definitive answer, but to me as a Brit, the idea that major businesses even have religious stances is weird. I get my coffee from a coffee shop, not a revivalist meeting. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

As another briton, I don't think it's that weird. Companies have stances on moral issues, and have mission statements and all sorts. Larger chains, like Costa Coffee, have stated beliefs and guiding principles, such as positions on Fairtrade and the Rainforest Alliance, and moral positions such as things about how customers should feel, how employees should be treated, etc. Smaller businesses often have religious or spiritual beliefs as part of that, although it is less common (nowadays) to see that in larger companies. Mostly because the companies that were most successful with it (such as the Quaker chocolate companies) got very big, then got bought up by more ruthlessly businesslike people. Chik-fil-A appears to be an evangelical fried chicken equivalent to Fry, Cadbury, and Rowntree, although as far as I know they haven't yet built a village for their workers with good quality housing and no alcohol.

Beyond that, it makes marketing sense. What do you think McDonald's is doing with their softly-spoken ads showing a wide variety of people meeting and bonding wholesomely in McDonald's? They're positioning themselves as being associated with certain values and sorts of people. In an area with a dominant religion actively practiced by most of the people there, it would make sense to link themselves to that. 86.159.77.170 (talk) 12:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

As a third Brit, I do think it's weird. The kind of ethical practices of places like Costa Coffee are generally things that everyone will agree are a good idea (although some may conclude they aren't worth the cost) and are things directly related to their business. Linking your business to religion is a different matter entirely. That said, Chick-fil-A doesn't seem to be particularly religious. Other than not opening on Sundays, they don't seem to do anything based directly on the religious beliefs of their owners. The owner of a business having a religious stance isn't the same as the business having one. --Tango (talk) 16:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm from the US and I avoid going to Chick-Fil-A due to their stated stances. While I wouldn't say "being nice" is a religious trait per-se I would say that when I've went to many different Chick-Fil-As in the past they have been exceedingly nice and helpful, significantly moreso then any other place I've ever ordered from a drive through. Chris M. (talk) 14:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Quick question: since you're so interested in this did have you done any research of your own? Because a quick search for 'Chick-fil-A international expansion' finds 2 directly relevent links. [16] from 2006 mentions possible expansion in to Puerto Rico and Mexico within 10 years. I can't say whether the 10 year plan is still under consideration but another source from the search [17] mentions 'Canada and Mexico' while the 'company considers future growth in non-domestic markets.' It mentions another interesting thing, it sound like you're mistake, Chick-fil-A did in fact try to expand in to South Africa but failed. A search for this finds (indirectly via [18], warning blog may be offensive to some) [19] which seems to confirm the South Africa bit noting:

After the failure of the chain's three South Africa stores last summer, Cathy is more cautious about opening stores abroad. If and when the company expands internationally again, it will go to European or perhaps Japanese cities where other American chains have already established an infrastructure and customer base. "In South Africa, we were competing with street vendors," he said.

Speaking as a South African - If their failure here was really because they couldn't hack it against street traders they were clearly wayyyy out of their depth. In this country the bottom end of the fast food chain sector is occupied by McDonalds. Below McD there are only independent "greasy spoon" joints and then the informal sector street vendors. Roger (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It also mentions the owners considered selling stock in the mid 1990s to go international. (BTW taking these sources together, they suggest that even if we ignore the religious issues, the owners business views perhaps mean international expansion could be slow such as an apparent reluctance to use loans or involve investors and the involvement and control they would potentially expect.)

Another interesting tidbit, [20] mentions several international jurisdictions where they won't offer you a franchise licence until they've complied with local legal requirements (because those jurisdictions regulate the offer and sale of franchises). This suggests two things. 1) They've looked in to this enough to be aware of those jurisdictions which probably is not that hard to do and may even be fairly standard for franchise lawyers; 2) If you are from another country, they may not completely ignore you if you if you want to bring Chick-fil-a to your location (this isn't that surprising given the other sources)

Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Also forgot to mention [21] from my first search which while not really related to this question does mention several US chains which are not present in Canada. Nil Einne (talk) 12:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Chick-fil-a is still working on expanding from a regional to a national U.S. chain. Even in the best circumstances, that kind of expansion requires a lot of time and effort. It's not just setting up stores, it's also arranging the supply chain without costs going through the roof. One thing that might work against them is their stance on closing on Sundays. If someone wants chicken on a Sunday, there are any number of other places that will accommodate them. Oddly enough, it might work better in the parts of Europe where stores are customarily closed on Sundays (assuming that's still done). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

October 20

Young-Looking Older Women

The long-tressed Virginia Hey

Which older women (60+) look young for their age? I'm thinking of Raquel Welch, Kim Novak, and even Hillary Clinton, but who am I missing? Futurist110 (talk) 00:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Pa'u Zotoh Zhann, right, is sixty.

My wife :-) (Do you think I should show her this to build up credits?) HiLo48 (talk) 00:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but only if you want to. Futurist110 (talk) 02:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

"Looking young for their age" can be a matter of genetics, make-up and/or cosmetic surgery, and only Clairol and/or the surgeon will ever know for sure. Bielle (talk) 01:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by---"only Clairol and/or the surgeon will ever know for sure"? Futurist110 (talk) 02:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

There used to be a television ad for Clairol or one of those companies that said something along the lines of "only Clairol will know if you color your hair.". Dismas|^(talk) 02:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, at the risk of proving my age, that's, "Only your hairdresser will know for sure." See also, Clairol. μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You left out the all-important question leading up to that answer: "Does she or doesn't she?" That was considered risque ca. 1960. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it now? But who among us was old enough, when that campaign was going (long after 1960), to know it was risqué? —Tamfang (talk) 08:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Sort of, but less so. TV is a lot less inhibited than it was in the 1950s-60s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I was young, but yes, I knew it was risqué. μηδείς (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

For a moment there, I thought I was looking at facebook, where my profile says I'm a 79 year old man from Kazakhstan. "Meet young-looking older women in Astana", and so on. (I can recognise the words for "erectile dysfunction" in three different scripts!) --Shirt58 (talk) 02:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Dinah Shore looked amazing well into her later years. I almost expected them to find a hideous painting hidden away. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It depends on which version of Photoshop you use. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

None of them. Futurist110 (talk) 22:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

In the UK an advert recently coined the term 'A Vorderman' to describe what you are talking about. Your mileage may vary. 86.166.191.232 (talk) 07:50, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Felicity Kendal. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Goldie Hawn. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Anne Robinson.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Nigella Lawson - Roger (talk) 12:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Nigella over 60? You're kidding! --TammyMoet (talk) 16:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

My bad, I missed the 60 age limit - she's an over 50 that looks 40-ish. Roger (talk) 17:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Vorderman and Lawson are in their early fifties according to our articles, so don't fit the OP's criteria. --Tango (talk) 16:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Ann-Margret, Catherine Deneuve and Sophia Loren. Oda Mari (talk) 16:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Helen Mirren, Tina Turner better here at the age of 70 in 2009. Bielle (talk) 17:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Julie Christie, Fanny Ardant, Lauren Hutton. Angela Bassett's only 54 but she could pass for 30. μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Susan Lucci, Jane Fonda, and Barbra Streisand. Oda Mari (talk) 18:51, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth II. 86? No way. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd settle for either version of QEII over Susan Lucci, Jane Fonda, and Barbra Streisand any day. μηδείς (talk) 22:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't Anne Robinson the robot that vaporised unwilling contestants on a Doctor Who episode? Can no one think of any non-white answers? I have always liked Nichelle Nichols, but she was a bit heavy in the 90's. μηδείς (talk) 01:25, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's Leontyne Price after 9/11/2001, when she was 74. What a voice, even then. Doesn't look half bad either. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I saw Madhur Jaffrey yesterday on a cookery programme in the UK. She doesn't look a day older than she did when she presented her Indian Cookery programme on the BBC in the 1980s. In fact, I was surprised to learn she is 79. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:56, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Bette Midler. Dolly Parton. Awesome plastic surgery in both cases. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 20:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

What is a Sausage?

I am in Hungary at the moment, and my colleague keeps buying what I would define as 'sausages'. There are many different types, unlike in the UK, where we basically just have one type. Now, when I call them 'sausages' (in English) he gets slightly irate, saying they are not sausages, but [insert random Hungarian name here]. So, to settle this once and for all, what defines a sausage in English? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

ground meat in skin Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 10:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

In the US, at least, we also have sausage patties, which lack any sausage casing at all. So, it does seem to be a catch-all for "random hunk of ground meat", although it's usually a bit spicier than, say, a hamburger patty. StuRat (talk) 11:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The key passage (from Sausages) might be "no collective word for "sausage" in the English sense exists in Hungarian" - i.e., it seems that each variety of sausage is considered its own distinct foodstuff. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:42, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. I just said this to my Hungarian colleague, and he said, "How is it possible you have a collective word for something which does not have instances - i.e. separate terms for different items? Like, you have the word 'dog', but there are lots of different dogs, for which you have names. Why not sausages? You even have a sausage dog!" KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

There are types. There's links versus patties, to start. For individual types, we frequently borrow the names from other languages, like "salami", "pepperoni" or "brats" (from "bratwurst"). "Summer sausage" seems to be entirely English, though. StuRat (talk) 12:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Mmm. We certainly do have different types of sausages - a Cumberland sausage is very different from a Lincolnshire sausage. But one can always go into a Caff and ask for sausages and chips, or Bangers and mash, and be pretty sure of receiving a cylinder of pig intestine, about 4"-6" long, filled with ground pork and rusk. It seems Hungarians don't have that rather delicious ability. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 13:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, well, we went on a business trip to Ireland and I showed him the local sausages, and he pretty much didn't like them. I suppose it's what you are used to, because I love UK sausages, especially for breakfast. And yes, we do have different types of sausages in the UK, but we still call them sausages, because they are sausages, and not something else. They are sausage-shaped (being sausages) and made in the way that people make sausages, and are therefore "sausages". KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:18, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

"...yes, we do have different types of sausages in the UK"

Ugh, I still remember the sausages I once had for breakfast at a youth hostel somewhere in England, many years ago. I swear they tasted like sawdust soaked in kerosene. Looie496 (talk) 15:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I have never had sawdust soaked in kerosene, so I cannot comment on that - maybe this is a local delicacy where you are from - but I actually like English sausages. As I say, I think it depends on what you were brought up on. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

With English sausages, they really need to either be the cheapest sausages (like a saveloy at the chip shop) or the expensive lovely ones. Both of these ends of the scale are delicious in their own way. The problem is the middle, where sausages are neither meaty enough nor do they revel properly in their greasiness, and I often find they have an odd flavour or texture. 86.159.77.170 (talk) 17:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

In Scotland, sausages need not be sausage-shaped - see square sausage; this confuses the hell out of simple English folk. Also, to confuse foreigners, we have black pudding, white pudding and hog's pudding which are not puddings at all, but would be called a sausage in any other country. Alansplodge (talk) 19:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I once saw English breakfast sausages for less than a pound per pound (regular price!) in an Airport delikatessen shop, IIRC in Glasgow (but I've seen many UK airports, so don't nail me down on the details). The only explanation I can imagine for this being economically feasible, given the rent in an airport, is that they are glad to have the environmental hazard shipped elsewhere. That said, most of the time I like British breakfast sausages - they are basically seasoned lard in cylinder form, with some stabilising agent (sawdust? oatmeal?) to keep them from melting. Something that unhealthy must taste good (or at least satisfying). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

In kinship terminology, different languages differ as to the presence or absence of various hypernyms and hyponyms.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

This seems quite simple old bean. Whereas Hungarian has presumably the equivalent of "Bratwurst" and "Salami" in it's language we have <type> sausage such as pork sausage, beef sausage to differentiate. When we say sausage on it's own simply tell him we are leaving out the "pork" definer as sausage on it's own refers to the most common type of sausage in the UK, a normal pork sausage with no added flavourings. Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

English and German, being of similar origin, both often make new words or expressions by combining smaller words. So instead of having a unique word for each kind of sausage or "wurst", we simply tack a modifier onto it: Wienerwurst, Bratwurst, Liverwurst, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:20, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

And if you're at a spa, you'd be eating Badwurst. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually eating Badwurst might motivate you to go to a spa, to recover from the consequences. Roger (talk) 14:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

And the comments here are going from bad to wurst. :) KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:40, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Is the word "kolbasz" or something similar? The distinction exists in Russian, too. There's ru:колбаса and there's ru:сосиски, both would be translated as sausage into English. The difference is that the latter are smaller and ususally must be prepared in some way. The disagreement between you and your friend is probably because you as an English speaker think the term applies to both, whereas your friend thinks that sausage is exclusively the second type and there must be a separate word in English for the first type.Asmrulz (talk) 10:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't Sausage#Hungary help answer your question? It even has a link to Hungarian sausages (and that page does have a Hungarian interwiki link ... Kolbász). Astronaut (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

um, "my" question? Asmrulz (talk) 23:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

How about Kielbasa? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Could this be a Craiglist scam?

I listed a piece of jewelry on Craiglist for sale in a city in the state of New York. A buyer from another state said he found my listing via a Craiglist-wide search and offered to buy my item. However, since he/she does not live in NY, they asked me to ship it to them in another state and they would pay me via PayPal. I asked for clarification and they said that they would send me the money first and upon receipt of the money via PayPal, I would ship them the item.

Could this be a scam somehow? Could they contact PayPal and file a fake fraudulent claim after I legitimately sent the item to them and get their money back?

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 18:41, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone can always claim they did not receive the goods you sent. Sometimes they are telling the truth, sometimes not. That they are in another state isn't likely to make a difference. Waiting until Paypal confirms the receipt of funds and then shipping by way of a service with a tracking ability and a requirement for a signature (See:www.ehow.com/how-does_4866088_tracking-packages-through-usps.html) is about as careful as you can be. Bielle (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC) added reference Bielle (talk) 00:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

If the OP has a request for a reference he can pose it. We can't advise him regarding crimes nor predict them. Anyone who has a reference to any general question the OP might pose can give it outside the hat. But we have no way of predicting whether someone might defraud him. μηδείς (talk) 23:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it could be a scam. I won't tell you how the scam works, since someone could learn from it. Craigslist clearly recommends to deal locally. Check their further recommendations and contact them (not wikipedia) directly about this issue. OsmanRF34 (talk) 01:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Here is how the PayPal Community Forum suggests you deal with all buyers using Paypal:

As a seller, there is quite a lot you can do to mitigate your risk. Checking your PayPal account instead of relying solely on email notifications, shipping items instead of hand-delivering them, shipping only to the address in the transaction details, using delivery confirmation that can be tracked online, and getting signature confirmation for high value items... these are all steps you can take to make the situation safer. Not only will following this list help ensure that you meet the requirements for Seller Protection, it is also likely to stop the fraud before it even starts. A fraudster will move on and try to find easier prey once they realize that you're wise enough to stick to the plan.

Bielle (talk) 01:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

My recollection with PayPal scams is that it used to be that you could recall the money you sent via PayPal pretty easily under certain circumstances, so the scam went, pay by PayPal, get the good, claim to PayPal that you didn't get it and want the money back, and PayPal would generally do it despite assurances to the contrary. I don't know if that's the same way anymore, this was some time back. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Whatever it might have been, Mr.98, it certainly is no longer. A quick Google of PayPal purchaser's protection led me to a whole series of "what to do when", many of which involved freezing both accounts until a dispute is settled. The simplest one, according to this PayPal help page, is if you claim not to have received your goods. The seller has to provide a shipping receipt with your address on it. If he can't, you get your money back. If he can, your argument is with the shipper. Bielle (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Good to know. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I've never had a non-scam out-of-state reply from Craigslist, so I would certainly be nervous about it. One big red flag is if the first email uses generic terms like "the item" - the mass emails they send out are generic enough that they don't have to spend time tweaking them. I'm not sure how the scam works with Paypay - most I have seen try to get you to cash a fake money-order or check. Does anyone know what happens if the buyer files a claim with Paypal saying the item was fake or not as described? The seller could have valid shipping receipts, but no good proof of what was in the box. I once had a roommate that responded to a craigslist car-buying scam to see what would happen. He received an obviously inkjet-printed cashier's check from a bank in Arizona even though the buyer claimed to be from Canada. The signature on the check didn't match the seller's name, and the envelope was sent USPS with a US postmark.209.131.76.183 (talk) 11:52, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

According to this (the "Fake Pre-Paid shipping" entry), this is a very common scam. Even before I went looking for sources, it made sense: send payment, say that the item never arrived (or was stolen), and take the payment back from Paypal. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:38, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

PayPal is not an escrow account. The money enters it right away. This is an entirely different scenario. All the seller needs is the correct tracking paperwork. Bielle (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep reading, and check out the entry "Fake Pre-Paid shipping," as I directed in my previous post. It has nothing to do with escrow accounts, that part is to be skipped. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:45, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I read them all. In the OP's case, the OP is in charge of the shipping, so there is no fake shipper. Bielle (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

October 21

Annual Essay Anthology

I wrote an essay entitled, "My Brother the Negro"

The certificate I received is as follows: Certificate of Acceptance National Essay Association AN ESSAY SUBMITTED BY PATTY MILLER HAS BEEN ACCEPTED FOR PUBLICATION IN THE ANNUAL ESSAY ANTHOLOGY Signed by D Hartman

This was around 1959/1960 out of Martins Ferry High School, Martins Ferry, OH

I would like to be able to locate that publication. Do you have any suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Practicalpat (talk • contribs) 03:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I would think that the obvious first step would be to try contacting the school. --Dweller (talk) 04:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"National Essay Association Creative Writing 1960" brings up this volume. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

breasts

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page.

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page. --~~~~

Wise decision

Hello there, I got the PDF version of Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich" from one of my friends a few month ago. I printed it only one side of size A4 paper. My printer does not have duplex printing option. Now the size of book is huge. I can't read this book while lying on the bed and even I can't hold this book in my hands for a long time. I can only read it when I use study table. I have read only one or two chapter. Recently, I have found this book on book store. And that version is very light weighted compare to printed version. Is it wise to buy that book from book store while having the same book in different shape? Help me please. Thanks--180.234.20.177 (talk) 12:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Nobody here can possibly offer any constructive advice on or whether or not to buy this book other than pointing out that it will be more convenient to read, but will cost you money. Balancing convenience against cost will be a matter of opinion, depending on your personal circumstances. The reference desk does not answer requests for opinions. - Karenjc 13:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Note that you can still get two-sided prints out of a printer which lacks the duplex option, although it involves printing one page at a time, then feeding it back in in the proper orientation so it will print correctly on the other side. However, it likely costs more to print an entire book either way, and it also will take hours, especially if you want duplex prints. So, given the choice, I'd buy it or read it online. However, if you already printed it out, then you will end up "throwing good money after bad". So, I'd use the one already printed. But, of course, the decision is yours. If you stick with the home printed version, I suggest you break it up by chapter, or less (however thin you need to make it so you can staple it). If you have a wide enough margin, you could also use binder clips. StuRat (talk) 16:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

You don't need to do that. Plenty of printer drivers and a fair amount of software supports manual duplexing in which case you only have to feed the pages back into the printer once (possibly more if your printer can't handle that many pages in whatever feeder), although you do have to be carefully to keep them together and not screw up when feeding them back in. BTW, from experience with printing books, unless you want very large type, if you're printing on A4 or similar size paper you generally want to print at least two columns per page. For A4 size paper you can effectively handle this by printing as A5 and priting two pages per side. If done properly you can stable or otherwise bind in the centre for a booklet. I've found this works well although I do agree it's helpful to split the book up in to perhaps 2-6 parts depending on the length. If you're printer lacks automatic duplexing and so can't do this completely automatically you should be able to do it manually either with the printer drivers if it supports that or the right software. The big problem here is you have a PDF which while good if you want to preserve the layout is a crap format for an ebook when you don't such as when printing. You can't easily change font size, there's no automatic reflowing etc which somewhat makes it more difficult to get something that works well (depending on the original what you can come up with without too much effort may or may not work well). BTW I don't know if I'd agree printing yourself is always going to be more expensive if you already legally own the book in ebook format (which is somewhat unclear to me). While publishers can obviously print a book much cheaper then you can, for a copyrighted book their markup may be high enough that it's easily cheaper to print. It helps of course if you're using a laser print, buy generic toner and have cheap paper. (If using an inkjet definitely generic ink.) But e.g. the book is US$7.99 including shipping to the US on Amazon [22]. From the number of pages, I'd suggest you'd need perhaps 100-150 A4 pages for the entire book presuming two columns per side, filling the page resonably well and double side. In Malaysia I could get about 500 sheets of A4 for about RM9.00. So make that RM2.70 for the paper. A cheap black inkjet catridge or refill either locally or from China would cost perhaps RM30 and could do say 4 books (probably more and in reality the price is an overestimate particularly if buying a few from China or buying ink in bulk) so make that RM6 for the ink. Round up thats only US$3.00. Of course this ignores the cost of wear and tear on the printer, power and the time you spend. In NZ the cost of paper here pushes the price up (ink is basically the same since you can still get it from China for very cheap) but it's still come under US$7.99 from the material cost. Nil Einne (talk) 02:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

In theory perhaps, but, in my experience, something always goes wrong. Either paper starts jamming, or you accidentally print over earlier sheets, or have the pages upside down, or you start getting streaks across the pages, or any number of other problems. You're more likely to end up with the printer flying out the window than with a good, clean print. To put some numbers on it, I'd estimate I get a good print out of my printer 90% of the time. So, for a two sided print, that's 81% of the time (let's say 80%, allowing for the possibility of me feeding it in the wrong way when trying to print the other side). So, 100 pages like that would have a 0.8¹⁰⁰ or 1 in 4.9 billion chance of coming out perfect. StuRat (talk) 09:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you very much StuRat.--180.234.98.75 (talk) 19:22, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• You're quite welcome. StuRat (talk) 10:26, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Pumpkin

Therecord holding pumpkin was weighed at the Topsfield Fair in TOpsfiled, MA, not RI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.248.160.167 (talk) 12:46, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed it was, as verified here at Pumpkin Nook. The pumpkin was grown in RI but taken to Massachusets for the competition. The image of a one ton pumpkin on a pickup barrelling down the highway is awesome. I have updated the pumpkin article. Thank you anonymous friend for your vigilance. If you notice something like this in the future it a better to post your note on the talk page of the article. Best to you. Richard Avery (talk) 13:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Pokemon Black & White sequels

A while back, my brother and I got Pokémon Black and White. I played White, and he played Black. Now we bought the sequels. Should we continue with the same colors as we had before, or should I play Black 2 and he play White 2? Does the game even have any way of knowing (e.g. via trading or something) which versions we originally played? (I know other game systems can do this because they save game data internally, but the DS games save to their own cartridges, so there's no direct access for one game to look at another's save game files.) Thanks! - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 13:08, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

While I can't decide for you, I would recommend sticking with the colour version you used, if only for minor storyline purposes. These are direct sequels, so if you finished the first ones, these pick up from there, including which legendary dragon you would have seen, depending on Black or White. As for whether it "knows" what you originally played, yes, it can, though it takes some doing: Memory link has the info you need, but it does contain spoilers. The instruction booklet that comes with the game will give more info as well. Mingmingla (talk) 16:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

What vehicle is this?

• File:AirChinabus0.jpg
• File:AirChinabus1.jpg

This is a Toyota van in China. What is the exact name of the vehicle make and model? WhisperToMe (talk) 13:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Google search and close look at the bottom right of the bus tells me it's a Toyota Coaster EX. 24.101.193.186 (talk) 13:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Whups, it seems like I overlooked that. Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 13:56, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome :) 24.101.193.186 (talk) 14:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

WAPPEN SCHANKWEILER COAT OF ARMS,

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME THE MEANING OF THE SYMBOLS PORTRAYED ON THIS COAT OF ARMS. I AM DISTANTLY RELATED TO THE CITY THROUGH MY FAMILY TREE. I WOULDD LIKE TO KNOW THE STORY FOR MY FAMILY HISTORY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP.

DARRELL SHONKWILER72.184.96.112 (talk) 16:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Here are the arms of the town of Schankweiler (Wappen simply means coat of arms). There is a description of the meaning here (in German). From what I can make out, it depicts the local parish church, the River Enz on which the town stands, an oak leaf representing the area's forests, and an item of Beaker pottery. My German's not great, so maybe someone else will be able to provide a more authoritative translation. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The seven-stepped gable apparently represents a small hill above the village chapel which is known as the "Mariahilf". The chapel shown in red is called the "Schankweiler Klause", and is the most famous structure in the town. On the left is a silver cup, which is an artifact taken from a neolithic gravesite that was found in the town. On the right is an oak leaf with three acorns, denoting that there are many oaks in the area, and that the name of the town may have something to do with oaks (I don't understand this part clearly). The water at the bottom is the river Enz, which flows through the town. Looie496 (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Heraldrywiki has a description in English. This translator also didn't understand the part with the oak clearly (neither do I) and unfortunately none of the descriptions mentions the date of the creation of the coat of arms (which should be between 1966 when the jar was found and 2006 when the image was uploaded). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:41, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This page, Die Gemeinde Schankweiler, says (if I interpret Google translate aright) that the town takes its name from the Barons Schenk von Schmittburg ("weiler" seems to mean Hamlet (place)). So perhaps the Traubeneiche (Sessile oak?) is an emblem of that family? Alansplodge (talk) 18:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

In the meantime, I found a photo of the parish church of Schankweiler, Die Pfarrkirche St. Michael, which does indeed have stepped gables on its tower (BTW they're called "Crow steps" in England). The text about the hill is the location of the Mariahilf chapel, also known as die Schankweiler Klause. The beaker was found in this megalithic cist grave. There is a picture of the beaker here but my PC can't see the image (some gibberish about Flashplayer). Alansplodge (talk) 00:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Name of Economist

Hello Can you tell me the name of I think a Canadian Economist that when to school with Bill Clinton? Best Regards, K — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asmja (talk • contribs) 16:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hard to say. Bill Clinton got his undergraduate degree at Georgetown University I can't find any Candadian economists listed at List of Georgetown University alumni who would have attended at the same time he did. He also went to University of Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship, looking at List of Rhodes Scholars, I do find one Canadian who was at Oxford with Clinton, that being Rex Murphy, but he's not an economist rather a news commentator. Still, that's the best I can find. --Jayron32 04:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

He also attended Yale Law School, List of Yale Law School alumni only turns up a few Canadians, none of whom graduated with Clinton. Now, that doesn't mean that he didn't attend Georgetown, Oxford, or Yale with a future Canadian economist, just that Wikipedia doesn't seem to have any information on it. --Jayron32 04:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Romantic friendship

I was just reading the article on romantic friendship on Wikipedia, and wondered... Can a romantic friendship exist between two people of opposite genders? All the examples in the article are same-sex pairings... 117.227.89.151 (talk) 19:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it is usually referred to as Platonic love when it's opposite sex pairings. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

But platonic love excludes physical displays of affection like holding hands, cuddling and kissing, while romantic friendship includes it. So what I'm asking is, can a girl and a guy kiss/cuddle/hold hands and still be friends, that is, romantic friends, and not lovers? 117.227.89.151 (talk) 19:43, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Platonic love excludes sex, but not necessarily affection (a parent may hold a child's hand, cuddle, or kiss them, and be affectionate but not sexual). Beyond that, your question heads into advice and opinions, which the Reference desk does not handle. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I think my question was more about the definition of the term itself, as opposed to opinions or advice. If that was the case, then every question on this desk could be misconstrued as a plea for some sort of advice or another. What I require is precise, factual information about the boundaries that outline the definition of a relationship which the article doesn't sufficiently cover. Now then, if anyone still thinks that I'm asking for advice, feel free to archive the entire thread and stop commenting on it. 117.227.89.151 (talk) 19:56, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

First you have to define 'romantic'. I have a lot of female friends whom I consider to be very close friends, with whom I can have a good time, and even rely on. Is this what you mean? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"Precise, factual information" is impossible with relationships, as they are social constructs and vary from culture to culture, and emotional in nature instead of logical. We cannot offer our opinions. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:13, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

That is utter nonsense and totally unhelpful. Saying "sorry the question is unanswerable" in the midst of people (including you yourself) providing input is ridiculous. Just because relationships are "social constructs" doesn't make them undefinable - the fact that we can have articles on them at all speaks to that. And it is perfectly conceivable that there are sources out there that address this guy's question. -Elmer Clark (talk) 02:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

And you didn't answer the question or provide sources because...? You're honestly not helpful either. The closest one could come to answering is "According to X's study of Y culture/subculture, it opposite sex romantic friendships are (encouraged/common/uncommon/rare/discouraged)," and we don't know what cultures or subcultures the IP is concerned with. It's really no different than saying we can't answer a question on how much skin is acceptable to show: there's too many considerations for someone here to answer anywhere near accurately. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:26, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

An excellent book on this area is An Intimate History of Humanity by Theodore Zeldin. You will get more from reading that, OP, than from asking us here. And it has plenty of references to follow up. People may have other reading suggestions. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

October 22

Liquid fire vs canned heat

Reliving the 70s last weekend, we hosted a fondue party. Had to rummage up the proper equipment, and discovered: things have been updated in the last 30-40 years :-) -- notably, the little burners now want you to use a liquid fuel rather than the cans of gelled pink stuff ("Sterno"). Having none of the new stuff, we used generic Sterno anyway, and, y'know, it just wouldn't keep the broth hot.

SO: does the liquid stuff have a greater heat content, or burn hotter, or whatever else, than the gelled stuff? A curious mind, attached to an aging hippie, needs to know ... --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any inherent reason that "napalm in a can" holds less energy. More likely those containers just have a smaller surface area for combustion to occur, or the flame height is not ideal for that particular pot (flame temp hits the highest temp at a certain height). StuRat (talk) 23:45, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Sterno is about 70% alcohol, with the rest presumably water and gelling agent [23] (what exactly? Home-made fire gels use calcium acetate, but I can't find what Sterno is specifically: the MSDS just gives the ethyl and methyl alcohols). Liquid fondue fuel is just alcohol. The gelling agent probably doesn't burn, so there might be some reduced efficiency there. I think it's probably more likely just ventilation, though. Anyways, this (probably not RS) says that the liquid fuels are indeed hotter. Buddy431 (talk) 00:12, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

October 23

United States presidential election, 2012

I thought that I was fairly well-versed in U.S. election laws and procedures. However, something in our article on United States presidential election, 2012 puzzle me. In the section on the candidates from other than Republican or Democratic parties, it lists which states the candidates will be on the ballots (Candidate Ballot Access). Then it lists Write-In Candidate Access for each of these candidates. It has always been my impression that write-in votes can be for anyone, and no specific prior "access" is necessary. In fact, there have been times when I have cast a write-in vote, and later I checked the official vote totals at the election office. My write-in votes were counted, even though the people I voted for had no prior access or anything designated before the election. (Yes, I am certain they were my votes because when I checked my specific precinct, the candidate's name was there, followed by the number "1" under the vote total.) So what is this Write-In Candidate Access referred to in the article?    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 05:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Could it just mean that those are states which allow write-in candidates for President, in the general election ? StuRat (talk) 05:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The states that allow write-in balloting may or may not require that the candidate file in advance to even be counted. Michael J's state apparently does not require this. Alaska does. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 05:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

(I am in Pennsylvania, by the way.) So then what happens in Alaska, for instance, if a vote is written-in for someone who has not pre-filed? There is no way to prevent people from voting for whomever they want to. Is the vote just not counted? (That doesn't seem fair.)    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 05:39, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The linked document states that "the votes will be counted for each individual write-in candidate if the candidate has filed a Letter of Intent with the Division of Elections as required...". So I'm taking that to mean that the votes just aren't counted. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 05:45, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

In California, I know that write-in votes for non-registered candidates are not counted. I think to register as a write-in candidate (for president) you have to have a slate of electors, which does make sense after a fashion — suppose enough people did actually write in someone who didn't have electors. Whom would California appoint as electors, then? --Trovatore (talk) 05:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

As a practical matter, since write-in candidates almost never win, they probably don't go thru the effort to try to read all the names and figure out who they meant, as long as the total number of write-ins is less than the winner. In those rare cases where there are more write-ins, then they have to read each one. At that point, it certainly would be helpful to have a list of possible names to compare each ballot with, to determine who they meant. So, those states that require that write-ins register would indeed toss out all other write-in ballots. StuRat (talk) 05:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Is that really the case? It would seem in cases when the candidate has complied with whatever requirements (like registering to be write-in candidate), votes for them have to be counted, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to report how many people actually voted for that candidate in the final tally (amongst other things) which I presume is the norm in most US states as it is in most of the world. (It seems to be for California United States presidential election in California, 2008.) The only way I could see this being an exception would be if the law actually says it's not necessary to count and report them unless the total number or percent/proportion exceeds something rather then just some adhoc practice. Nil Einne (talk) 07:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd say the reverse. The law likely states that the officials must determine the count for the winner and perhaps the 2nd place count. Unless it also states that every vote be reported, then this requirement does not exist. Considering that states without a requirement for write-ins would have thousands of write-ins with one or two votes each, it seems absurd to require election officials to determine and report each of them. StuRat (talk) 14:25, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

That seems a bit strange, I haven't heard of anyone having an election that doesn't require you to actually report who was voted for, particularly for official or listed candidates. (In particular, even when cuttoffs exist, they are usually fairly low way lower then 50%-1.) And I don't really see what's so hard about reporting write ins. For states which require registration of write-ins, simply determine if the write-in is a registered candidate. If not, then it can be safely ignored.

For states which allow them without (pre-)registration, then simply report what's written in. The fact you have no idea who Tom Kelvin or Jane Leah are doesn't necessarily matter unless you actually have to worry about appointing elector for either of them (in which case as highlighted above and below, you have other problems like who the heck are going to be the electors even if you can work out who Tom Kelvin is), you are still reporting who was voted for. The fact the Tom Kelvin, Thomas Kelvin and Thamas Kelvln were actually votes for the same person also doesn't necessarily matter to you, as highlighted in the Pennsylvania case if people want to handle something like that they likely need to work with you or by themselves, if you report the votes to the best of your ability you're still reporting who was voted for. There may be a lot of different people but since the number of votes is small even if proportionally you spent 200 times longer counting and reporting a vote for a write in (really the counting won't be that much longer, the extra time would primarily come from needing to write each candidate in your report) as you do for the Republican/Democratic candidate you aren't actually spending that much time. (You may be using a lot more paper.)

But anyway you seem to be partially correct on the earlier point. I only looked at those without a registration requirement but in the Pennsylvania case it's even more complicated then the earlier link suggests. Although writeins are allow not all countries even bother to count them let alone report them [24] (the state itself only seems to report 4 candidates I presume with a cutoff around 0.1% or something [25] although perhaps you can get a more complete tally somewhere [26] has one (including writeins counted but not individualised) although I'm not sure if they got the stuff besides the write-in info from the county data or the state themselves. I'm not entirely sure how Pennsylvania handles the theoretical case when a write in gets enough voted to have elector/s, it sounds to me like they have no provision if the counties themselves aren't even always reporting the total number of writeins. Edit: Actually it turns per the FM link below Pennsylvania did report some of the writeins based on those counties which reported them, but they didn't do all (it sounds like they they did something similar to NH in deciding who to report but chose even fewer people).

Delaware state reports the number [27] but I couldn't find any evidence even the counties themselves report who was voted for.

Alabama does actually give tallys for the writeins [28], you can see amusingly enough GWB received a vote for the Alabama board of education 6.

Iowa is an interesting case, the official information doesn't seem to mention write-ins at all unless I'm not understanding it correctly but it seems the counties do need to report each write-in candidate [29]. (Per the blog [30], Iowa does recommend candidates need to work with their voters to insure consistency in names.)

New Hampshire seem to partially report the individual candidates [31] (original page is broken for the write-ins). I'm not sure what criteria they use to decide, it may be a minimum number of votes (the candidate with the fewest had 13) although more likely I think they only listed those when they had some idea who the person was, I'm also not sure and couldn't be finding out if the counties report the actual names including those listed as 'other'.

New Jersey doesn't seem to report writeins at all (not even tally) at the state level [32] no idea what they do at the county level but the blog [33] said they would only tabulate it if there were enough to win I'm not sure if that means on an individual or overall level.

I was getting bored by this stage and probably going to stop but from the New Jersey search did come across [34] which has info on which state releases what. (It sounds like Delaware may actually release info eventually, whether they did in 2008 and if so where you can find it I don't know.) BTW that blog suggests you may be partially mistaken, a number of these adhoc practices appear to be questionable under state law, it's just that no one has ever bought a lawsuit about it, in some cases ballot access is easy enough that anyone who is going to want to sue (because votes for them were not properly counted or reported) is unlikely to actually be a write-in candidate. (I note that the earlier blog also suggested in a few cases where the state either said they won't count write-ins at all there was some question in the blog of the legality of the practice.)

The other states which are supposed to allow write-ins without registration are Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Wyoming. Some of these explicitly mention the need for some sort of paperwork after the election if the candidate wins (I think), but I presume this doesn't affect reporting. It's possible I missed some others, particularly if I misunderstood something about the need for paperwork after the election to mean (pre-)registration, it may pay to check my list with that from the FrankMooreforPresident08 site. Of course as you suggested it's also possible a state despite requiring registration of some sort for writeins won't bother to count and report all of them anyway as strange as that may seem to those unfamiliar to the oddities of US elections.

Nil Einne (talk) 00:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm also suspicious of absentee ballots. If they clearly won't influence the outcome, do they really bother to count them ? StuRat (talk) 03:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how accurate and current it is but see http://writein2008.blogspot.com/ which shows varying requirements in each state, if write-in candidates are allowed at all. In many states you must have signed certificates from the people you want as electors. See http://writein2008.blogspot.dk/search/label/Pennsylvania for the apparent mess in your own state. PrimeHunter (talk) 06:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

OK. It does not surprise me that my home state has a messed-up voting law. If I recall correctly from four years ago, it doesn't list the office as "President" but something like "Presidential Electors for...", then there are the five or six named candidates, and a blank line for a write-in. I do know that in my county, they are quite diligent in accounting for spelling variations among write-in votes; I can't speak for the other 66 counties. Anyway, then I guess in Pennsylvania, in theory someone could win without being declared. Then I imagine that person, if he or she accepts, would have to name Electors. I do know that write-in winners for local office (yes, it does happen on that level) must file the same paperwork that candidates on the ballot had to file pre-election, or else forfeit the office. . . . . . . Well, I thank you all. My confusion arose from my residing in a state with very old laws. But I think I'll stick with them. Thanks again.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 09:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

A fairly related question, aside from the US, are there any places which have separate voting laws for different jurisdictions? In my country, the voting procedures are the same for all places no matter what province. Is the practice of having separate voting laws per state unique to the US? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 10:21, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The United States is fairly unique in having different state laws govern a national election; however, most federal countries have electoral laws that vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, for elections at the sub-national level. In Canada, for example, some provinces have adopted elections at a fixed date, and others not; financing laws vary from province to province as well. --Xuxl (talk) 12:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

There are no national elections in the U.S. That is, there are zero elections which are done on a national level, officially. To state it again: among the entire population of the United States, exactly and no more than zero offices are elected on a national level. Every single election is done by the states according to state law. 538 people do vote for the President, but the election of those 538 people is not specified in national law, and each state is allowed to elect (or appoint!) their electors in any manner they see fit. That's why the U.S. works the way it does: the sovereignty of the states is such that each state gets to have its own election laws, and so long as those laws don't directly violate the constitution, they can do whatever they want. --Jayron32 16:52, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I think we get that, but there is still a "national election" in the sense that the entire country votes for (members of the Electoral College who choose) the President and Vice President on the 1st Tuesday in November every leap year. Is it possible that Arkansas, say, could have its presidential election on a different date from all the other states? Or does it every 2 years instead of every 4 years? Or only once every 10 years? I seriously doubt they have such options. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

[Not necessarily the first Tuesday. It's the first Tuesday after the first Monday Your Username 21:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)]

Thanks for the correction. I was getting confused with the Melbourne Cup. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

They could not do it every two years because their electoral votes would not be received. There is a Federal law requiring all states to have their popular votes for electors for president and vice president on the day after the first Monday in November. At one time, there was no such law, then there was a decreasing list of states which voted early, and now we have dull uniformity.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Not total uniformity. Now different states have different time ranges in which they allow early voting. Duoduoduo (talk) 20:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

So, there is a federal (national) law requiring the states to hold a certain election, and on what dates and at what frequency. How the states individually go about conducting that election may be their own affair, but I would not characterise that situation as "there are zero elections which are done on a national level, officially". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The national law determining the date of the Presidential Election only mandates the date which the election must be completed by. One state, Oregon, doesn't even have in-person voting (see Elections in Oregon), so "election day" is just the date when the ballots need to arrive at the election office. Also, it still bears repeating that people don't vote for the President and Vice President. Also, many states do "Early Voting" now; in some states the expected turn-out before election day is expected to exceed the turn out on that day. The only dates which is important is the date when the votes are opened and certified in Congress (see Electoral_College_(United_States)#Joint_session_of_Congress_and_the_contingent_election, which is usually some time in December, to accommodate the possibility that the election could end up in the House of Representatives; the House of Representatives would need to choose the President before the Inauguration Day (January 20). Since Congress is inaugurated on January 3, that gives them three weeks to elect the President if they needed to. So, the election itself is in Early November so that there's enough time for recounts if needed. The date was set in a time before electronics (or even high speed transportation), so there was a real need to have the time to do all of the counting, traveling, voting, and recounting necessary to elect the President according to the terms of the Constitution, and there was just never any impetus to change it to a later time. But the fact still remains that other than the date itself, and laws regarding the franchise (as in, who is allowed to vote, and what the state can or cannot do to restrict the vote) the actual procedures of the elections are left to the states, including how the states choose their Presidential Electors. Until fairly recently, many states printed the actual names of the electors on the ballot, I think a few still do. Some states didn't print the name of the Presidential Candidate at all, just the slates of electors. Also, the national law doesn't even require a popular vote to choose the Electors. In the early decades of the U.S., most states selected their electors via the State Legislatures, and there was no popular election. The election day in those cases was just the day when the Legislature voted on whom the electors would be. The national law still doesn't require a state-wide popular vote, though every state holds one. Please read Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clause_2:_Method_of_choosing_electors, which has never been repealed or amended by any later amendment. That every state legislature has chosen to use a state-wide poll to determine the slate of electors isn't anything codified in the national law in any way. --Jayron32 04:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

All that detail was encapsulated in my "How the states individually go about conducting that election may be their own affair".

The fact remains that an individual state cannot choose not to have a presidential election at all, because there is a federal law that requires it to hold one. That federal law is just as much a part of the overall election scenario as any state's particular electoral arrangements. The US presidential election is not solely a federal matter, and not solely a state matter either. It's a joint undertaking.

Also, any_chance_of providing_links_without_underscores_in_future? Long_ones_are_very_hard_to_read. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

As_soon_as_they_stop_replacing_spaces_within_URLs_with_them. --Jayron32 11:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Why not just copy the actual title, rather than going anywhere near the URL? That's what I always do. (Mind you, I hate underscores with an ever-burning passion and I would cut my grandmother's arms and legs off before ever using one; except as above.) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I do normally, but for section links it takes two pastes instead of one. I'm lazy. But point taken, I'll go through the trouble of copy-pasting both the article and section titles separately and typing the # sign. Your piece of mind is worth three or so extra key strokes. --Jayron32 16:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

While there is no actual requirement for popular presidential elections, the requirement in the Constitution that the federal government guarantee that the states have a republican form of government probably means that whoever picks the electors be responsible to the people. It can't be done by the unelected Duke of Delaware (sorry, Joe). In 2000, in the legal battle in Florida, the legislature, as I recall, was quite prepared to pick electors on its own (the Bush slate) if the court battle hadn't ended. That of course would have meant another legal battle ...--Wehwalt (talk) 12:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

See my post above in particular [35] and [36]. It sounds like in the Pennsylvania case not all counties even bother to report writeins even though they're supposed to and the state can't force them to. As I highlighted above and by the first link here, it seems it's not uncommon for states which don't require registration to not bother to report writeins in the state tally although in some cases the legality is apparently questionable although possibly only a candidate who received a vote which wasn't counted (rather then a voter who's vote wasn't counted) can test this. (As I also mentioned above, per the earlier blog it sounds like the legality of denying writeins in some states, e.g. Arkansas [37] is also questionable.) Nil Einne (talk) 00:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

(I started this whole mess, I might as well go on.)This is OR: Perhaps many Pennsylvania counties do not report every write-in, but I know for certain my home county does. On election night, a printout from every voting district is posted in the courthouse, with the names of the candidates on the ballot followed by the number of votes received. Then comes a line-by-line listing of every write-in vote cast in that precinct. When the official count is done later in the week, the election officials review the write-ins, combining those they are reasonably certain refer to the same person, and leaving all of the others separate. These are entered onto the official data sheet and submitted to Harrisburg. As I noted, the write-ins are never significant when it comes to state/national elections, but they do on occasion become relevant in local races. ... I am fascinated by this discussion, because it stuns me that some (apparently most) states tell voters that even if they vote for a qualified person, their vote might not be counted. If I cast an honest ballot, I expect every name on it to be counted. That is only fair.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 07:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I served as an officer of election for several years in the early 90s for the money (not much). In filling out the official returns sheet (posted outside the door to the polling place) we did count write ins. That being said, the precinct return sheet and the official, statewide return are two different things and I don't think the write ins made it that far.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

What do you call this style of packaging...

What is the proper industry term for the kind of retail packaging where the product is placed in a plastic bag with a piece of printed cardboard folded over the top and stapled - with a hole punched in it for hanging in a store? Can't find a Wikipedia article about it, none of the links in the {{packaging}} template even mention it or have a photo. SteveBaker (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Header card packaging? 1.23 M results on Google. 20.137.2.50 (talk) 15:03, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

How many horses and bayonets in the US military in 1917 and today?

In the third US Presidential debate, Obama countered Romney's accusation that the US has fewer ships than in 1917 by mentioning the smaller number of "horses and bayonets." The comment on horses is understandable, since cavalry units were discontinued in WW2, but the comment on bayonets is puzzling if taken literally. Per the Wikipedia articles the M7 bayonet is used with the M16 rifle and the M4A1 carbine by US Army and Navy forces, while the M9 bayonet is also used by the Army. US Marines use the OKC-3S bayonet. Does each US military rifle at present still get issued with a bayonet to the person expected to carry it for possible combat use? How would the number of US military bayonets compare to the maximum issued in 1917? The number of active and reserve US military personnel now is 2.3 million to 3 million in different places in the United States Armed Forces article, while World War I says the US drafted 2.8 million men in WW1 (in addition to the small prewar military). But in WW1, soldiers drilled with sticks due to a lack of actual weapons in mid 1917, suggesting a lack of stockpiled weapons. If the comparison had been to the small peacetime military of 1916, it seems clear that the US has more now. There have been effective bayonet charges, at least by UK units, in recent wars, so it is not just a utility tool or a ceremonial relic. So as a good encyclopedic factcheck, how do the bayonet numbers for the US military for 1917 and 2012 compare? As for horses, presently there appear to be 47 horses and 2 mules in the only official US cavalry unit (ceremonial, exhibitions, parades), the "Horse cavalry detachment" of the 1st Cavalry. How many did the 1917 US military have? (Likely tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, used not only for cavalry, but to pull wagons and artillery). Edison (talk) 17:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It's got to be fairly rare that the enemy gets close enough to bayonet, in modern warfare. Thus, the added weight, risk of accidentally injury, cost, etc., must be considered in this light. On the plus side, perhaps the bayonet can be used for other things, like cutting through wire. StuRat (talk) 17:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Soldiers are still trained to use them, but they are almost never used and are made to be more effectively used as a combat knife instead of a makeshift spear anyway. Because of this, the army has all but replaced bayonet training with calisthenics. The last time US soldiers went on an actual bayonet charge was 1951 (even if a couple of other nations have found use for it). - [38].

The bayonet's use today: minimal, almost extinct. Glancing over the articles on the OKC-3S bayonet and M9 bayonet, there's maybe 500,000 out there, and they're being used as knives.

The bayonet's use in World War I: "commonplace," even if the use in combat was starting to decline. I can't find actual numbers, but 4,743,826 Americans fought in World War I, and it's safer to assume more of them were carrying bayonets than not. Just because they were drilling without bayonets does not mean a lack of bayonets: their use in the field was more important, and it's not a bad idea to train with a safe blunt stick.

That'd mean bayonets today are about a tenth (maybe a fifth) of what they were in 1917. Obama's point that there are fewer horses and bayonets stands up. If someone (*glare at Dad's co-workers*) wishes to completely lie about what he said, and pretend he said no horses and bayonets, it doesn't stand up, but that's not what he said. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:57, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

My local news just reported the current number as 600,000 bayonets. More than you'd think. StuRat (talk) 03:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

And the figure I gave was "maybe 500,000." In comparison to the number used in WWI, its really not that much of a difference. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Anyone know, in recent US conflicts, how many enemy soldiers/terrorists were killed with a knife? Attached to the end of a gun or otherwise. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd associate that with special forces (Navy Seals, Green Berets, etc.), since you can kill silently with a knife, ideal for covert actions. However, the victim's mouth must be covered while they die, and an atached bayonet would put you out of range for that. StuRat (talk) 03:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

How about a 2 person assault: you hold him, covering his mouth, while I lunge at him with my bayonet equipped rifle?( I'll try not to push too hard). A Vietnam era US soldier said to me "If I'm close enough to stick him, I'm close enough to shoot him." On the other hand, another said "If you're out of ammo, a bayonet charge would be more satisfying than begging for mercy." If the US military has 2.3 million to 3 million actives and reserves, and only 600,000 bayonets, how many rifles do they have? Do 1.7 million soldiers fight with a humongous artillery piece, a tank, a plane, a sub, a keyboard, or their command presence and bare hands rather than a rifle? The US Marines say every one is a a rifleman, and the Air Force, Navy and Army claim they train personnel for base defense. Have they no warehouses with sufficient rifles to equip at least all active duty personnel with rifles? Do they lack sufficient bayonets to provide one per rifle? Edison (talk) 04:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

This ABC blog states the Army has 419,155, while the Marines are holding onto 195,334. It goes on to say that "bayonets had not been issued to soldiers deploying in Iraq and Afghanistan", though "one soldier said they were available if needed." Clarityfiend (talk) 06:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Bayonets are usually saved for those deep kimchi moments when you've run out of ammunition. Jarheads still train with them. This is instructive. Zoonoses (talk) 04:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

On the issue of horses, their use by cavalry units constituted only a small proportion of their total numbers; they were a major form of transportation up until World War II. --Xuxl (talk) 08:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Two related points:

1) The strength of an army was sometimes stated in a figure-of-speech as (so many thousand) bayonets (a metonymy?); "I fear three newspapers more than a hundred thousand bayonets.”[39] "England Holding Ireland With Two Hundred Thousand Bayonets"[40] are the first examples that I could quickly find. Personally, I certainly concluded that President Obama was using "horses and bayonets" as a rhetorical figure to mean the total strength of the US Army. If this is the case, then it wasn't a good tactic, as it seems to have puzzled everybody else.

2) The US Army in the late 19th and early 20th centuries was miniscule in comparison to the immense armies of Europe. "by 1917 the Federal army had only expanded to around 121,000, with the National Guard numbering 181,000". Compare that with 2,200.000 mobilized by Germany in 1914, 1,125,000 by France and even Britain's "contemptible little army" managed 711,000.[41] So, Obama was correct if he intended to state that the US Army is many times stronger now than it was in 1917. The 2010 total was about 600,000 Army, 360,000 National Guard and 205,000 Army Reserve although I understand that there have been substantial cuts. Alansplodge (talk) 13:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

And you may be interested in a paragraph found in our Bayonet article; "British forces in Afghanistan have used bayonets on numerous occasions. In 2009, Lieutenant James Adamson, aged 24, of the Royal Regiment of Scotland was awarded the Military Cross for a bayonet charge whilst on a tour of duty in Afghanistan: after shooting one Taliban fighter dead Adamson had run out of ammunition when another enemy appeared. Adamson immediately charged the second Taliban fighter and bayoneted him. In September 2012, Lance Corporal Sean Jones of The Princess of Wales's Regiment was awarded the Military Cross for his role in a bayonet charge which took place in October 2011." Alansplodge (talk) 13:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The importance of being eco friendly

Why is it imporant for construction to be enviornmentally friendly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.94.192.6 (talk) 19:12, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

For much the same reasons as any human activity needs to be eco-friendly. You'll discover those reasons when you do the research for your homework. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

See environmentally friendly.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Think of how important construction is as an economic sector. If it is not environmentally conscious, how much damage can be done? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

See Environmental Impact Of Building Construction Can Now Be Predicted by Science Daily.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

EGGciting change

BLUE FRONT AMAZON PARROT

MY QUESTION IS WHY WOULD THE BIRD START LAYING EGGS WHEN IT HAS'NT DONE IT IN THE LAST 15 YRS. AND IT HAS NOT BEEN BRED WITH A MALE BIRD? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.12.253.66 (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I added a title (hey, if you don't add a title yourself, you take your chances). :-) StuRat (talk) 20:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Also, many people consider using all caps here to be a capital offense. StuRat (talk) 20:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I Googled "parrot not bred laid egg" and found many articles confirming that parrots may do this, and it's not unusual for it to start suddenly after many years. It seems that when an unmated pet bird begins to lay eggs (which will be infertile), it's a sign that its hormones are telling it to breed. Most of the articles suggest that it can be bad for a bird's health to keep laying unnecessary eggs, so it's important how an owner reacts when their pet begins to do this. I'm not going to link to the articles here, or repeat any of the advice in them, but if you can't find the answers you need by searching online or in a reference book then you should consider consulting a qualified person, such as a veterinarian, to ensure you get the right advice on managing your bird's health at this time. - Karenjc 21:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Has there been a change in its diet, location, exposure to daylight, social interactions? What else has changed? μηδείς (talk) 00:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Our canary started laying eggs after it established a social relationship with a guinea pig in a nearby cage. As always a veterinarian is a better source of info than random people on the internet, and contributors to the Ref Desk are specifically not permitted to provide medical or veterinary advice. Edison (talk) 04:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

October 24

Who's responsible for updating GPS data?

About a month ago, a mile long parkway was completed and opened near where I work (I'm in the U.S. BTW, if it makes a difference). This was not a road improvement, but a brand new road where none had existed before. I should say first that, while it was under construction, my GPS didn't recognize it, or the temporary detours caused by the construction. But then all of a sudden, now that its been open for a few weeks, my GPS (and most major mapping software, i.e. Google, Bing, Mapquest) all recognize it. This was a very modest project, maybe a half mile in total. I'm curious how my GPS suddenly recognized it now. Who is responsible for updating new roads? Is it a function of the Dept. of Transportation (State or Feds), or the mapping company (Google, Bing, etc)? Is there a standard procedure in place for updating new roads to GPS databases now as part of the construction? How does this happen? Ditch ∝ 00:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Highway databases have nothing directly to do with GPS. All GPS tells you, per se, is where you are (latitude, longitude, elevation) and what time it is. (Oh, and possibly how fast you're going — I think there's a Doppler component to that; it's not just taking the derivative of your position.)

The database belongs to whatever company made your unit. It's impressive that they were able to update your unit remotely — is it connected to the Internet somehow? --Trovatore (talk) 00:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Our article on that is Automotive navigation system. Articles on four mapping companies provide some hints: Tele Atlas, Navteq, GeoSmart and Automotive Navigation Data provide some crumbs. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

See also How Google Builds Its Maps—and What It Means for the Future of Everything ... iirc, they're now quite reliant on user feedback. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The article about Google maps is very good. The one big answer that's missing above is The Census's Tiger data. Shadowjams (talk) 01:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that several cities (and possibly states) have openly (or at possibly for purchase) available datasets for all roads in the area that are kept up-to-date as projects are completed. I don't think it is comprehensive in the US, but at least there are some areas that make it easy for map providers to keep things updated. 209.131.76.183 (talk) 12:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Del Taco and Other Fast Food Quality

My dad recently told me that he read somewhere that del Taco was discovered to have been reheating old burger meat for their tacos. Is this true? I couldn't find anything about it online. Also, have any other fast food places been caught recently in regards to poor quality food? And yes, this is a serious question. Futurist110 (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I have redacted the name of the restaurant. We don't want to be making potentially libelous statements without any verifiable sources to back them up. Looie496 (talk) 01:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I've restored the name. We're not making any such statements, and neither did Futurist or his dad. He only said his father read it someplace. Taco Bell's customers had a beef (or not) about its "meat".[42] Clarityfiend (talk) 02:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Ironically, what they call beef is probably healthier than actual beef. The more serious problem with Taco Bell is food poisoning: [43]. StuRat (talk) 03:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Mmmmm, nothing says Mexican food like beef-flavored anti-dusting agent. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

And all we need now is an anti-disgusting agent. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

insert rimshot here. --Jayron32 11:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The search "del taco" meat in google news since 1990 gets no relevant hits. I don't think this rumor is true. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Cowboys in Calgary

The 1993 film Cool Runnings features the main characters heading out for some entertainment while in Calgary and are seen in a cowboy-style bar. I also noticed that there was a guy with a cowboy hat at the Olympic registration area. Is there any special reason why Calgary would feature such a thing? I mean, could you find a cowboy-style bar or tavern or whatever in any big city like Boston or Charlotte or is Calgary noted for being a cowboy place? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:34, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Noted. See Calgary Stampede for example. Cowboy hat in Boston - unlikely. Rmhermen (talk) 02:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeehaw. One of Calgary's nicknames is "Cowtown". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Alberta is the Texas of Canada: an oil-rich and cattle-rich province of wide open plains (see Canadian Prairies). Cowboys are as associated with Calgary as they are with Dallas. --Jayron32 04:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Hence the defunct WHA team called the Calgary Cowboys. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

They also had a WHA team that never played, the Calgary Broncos. There is also the arena designed to look like a saddle. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

That type of dome has one advantage: It will never collapse... because it already is collapsed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

We have one of those in Raleigh: Dorton Arena. We call it the "Pringle Arena" for obvious reasons. No cowboys here tho. A few dairy farms... --Jayron32 13:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Shortly before my time in the UK, on Commonwealth Day and before that, Empire Day, it was common for primary schools to ask children to attend dressed-up as a citizen of one of the nations of the Commonwealth. For boys, all that was needed was to get their cowboy outfit out of the dressing-up box and be Canadian for the day. An example: Empire Day 1952 or 1953 Vic Thomas is wearing a cowboy outfit. Alansplodge (talk) 12:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Why are all the girls in that picture dressed as nurses? Is there a Commonwealth nation famous for its nurses? Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

UK holiday cottage/villa

I've only ever stayed in large hotels before, so this is a new area for me. I need to find out though, if a small group of people wanted to rent a private cottage, villa or similar home for a few days, where would be the best place to look for available options and roughly how much might it cost?

213.104.247.116 (talk) 20:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)