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Three separate but related topic ban proposals for NYScholar

I believe NYScholar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is known to this noticeboard. Given some of his/her recent activities, I am proposing one topic ban against her/him and Ssilvers (talk · contribs) is proposing another. [Update: a third discussion/proposal has been added.]

Proposed topic ban on discussing copyright issues

NYScholar does a lot of work on copyright issues. Unfortunately, he/she combines a very poor understanding of the relevant issues with zeal, persistence, and an absolute conviction of her/his own correctness, even in the face of unanimous disagreement from other editors. Most recently, this has manifested itself in discussions about an image of Harold Pinter; these discussions can be found here, here, here, and here. It has become apparent to those of us participating in the discussion that NYScholar does not understand either fair use or WP:NFCC, continuing to make the same point (that the disputed image is under copyright, which is acknowledged by all) in numerous lengthy and often difficult to decipher posts. This has been an issue with NYScholar for some time: to see older examples, see this discussion and pretty much these entire talk pages: 1, and 2.

In light of this continued pattern of behaviour, I do not believe that NYScholar is ever likely to be able to contribute usefully to discussion of copyright issues, and that his/her involvement in such discussions is necessarily disruptive. Also note that I anticipate this section being overrun with lengthy posts very shortly, and so am taking the initiative to hive off a polling section immediately, notwithstanding polls being evil. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Endorse proposed ban

1. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
2. Ssilvers (talk) 23:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
3. Jack1956 (talk)
4. Dreamspy (talk) 15:35, 26 June 2009
5. Orderinchaos 19:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
6. teb728 t c 04:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC) In particular NYScholar should be banned from saying that an admittedly fair-use image may not be used because the copyright owner does not agree to its use. (comment added —teb728 t c 22:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC))
7. Broadwaygal (talk) 12:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
8. Tim riley (talk) 15:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
9. -- Earle Martin [^t/_c] 18:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
10. Sarah 02:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
11. Verbal chat 14:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
12. Given the information in the total ban discussion below, I feel this is an appropriate response. rspεεr (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
13. Endorse but only for a period of a couple months at most for a time out. Longer later if necessary. DreamGuy (talk) 21:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose proposed ban

1. User:NYScholar
2. NYScholar appears to be perfectly logical and cogent in their arguments. Triplestop x3 03:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
3. There are very often free images of well known people in the public domain, and there is at least a decent argument that if someone was alive after 2000 that this will be the case. "Free use" is then a crutch for laziness. Please see [1] for discussion of one particular case. AKAF (talk) 07:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

   Er, what does this have to do with what's being proposed? So you don't like fair use images of recently deceased people; that's fine. There's room for a wide diversity of opinions on the extent to which fair use images should be used. Nobody's proposing topic banning NYScholar from copyright issues because of her/his beliefs; we're proposing the topic ban because NYScholar i. repeatedly makes flagrantly incorrect statements of fact, and ii. when told by literally everybody else in the discussion that these facts are incorrect, he/she refuses to budge. This has been, as indicated above, an ongoing problem for more than a year now, and not just with regards to fair use images (see, for example, here, where NYScholar disrupts a debate that he/she initiated by posting enormous amounts of irrelevant text on the subject of an entirely free image). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:51, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

   It is the rather pertinent fact that "not liking" fair use images of (recently) deceased people is the default wikipedia/wikimedia position. Your position is hindered by being wrong on this topic, and there is a fair amount of precedent to show that for most famous persons that free images exist if only one is prepared to search. NYScholar may have made a pest of himself, but he happens to be right in this particular case. It appears that there is an ongoing acceptance on non-free images in the Harold Pinter article which is contrary to best practice. As far as the copyright discussion which you cite: Unfortunately on wikipedia "literally everybody else in the discussion" can be a bunch of 12 year olds in the school library, and so is hardly a great argument. I find his arguments on the image you cite persuasive, but interpretation of copyright law is not democratically decided. AKAF (talk) 09:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

   "My position"? As noted here, I'm not even convinced that this image passes the WP:NFCC. This is not a debate over whether/when non-free images should be used. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 18:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

   Actually there have been exhaustive attempts to find free images of Pinter on the web, both by NYScholar and others. I have five requests oustsanding using the boiler-plate image request emails, and have had three poltiely turned down. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

4. A site-wide ban on discussing copyright issues is just overkill, in my humble opinion. –blurpeace ^(talk) 07:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
5. He's wrong on many accounts, but that doesn't mean he needs a topic ban. Most actions seem to stem from the past week about a single image. While I admire his zeal, it certainly is misplaced. Other actions should be taken before a topic ban. — BQZip01 — ^talk 02:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

   It’s not just a recent problem: I first encountered NYScholar's strange copyright theories in 2007 at here where he/she insists that the (1903) design of Nobel Prize medal is not public domain in the US. —teb728 t c 06:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

6. I understand that tensions are rising due to the "Someone is WRONG on the Internet" effect, but I don't think a topic ban is an appropriate response. Though I believe NYScholar is wrong about fair use, the more relevant problem is NYScholar's attempted "ownership" of the article and its discussion, and so the article is the more appropriate scope for a ban. rspεεr (talk) 07:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

   Given more background information about NYScholar's history of wiki-lawyering, I am moving to support. rspεεr (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment

I find these actions on the part of these editors outrageous. --NYScholar (talk) 00:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban on Harold Pinter

User:Ssilvers should be along shortly to provide more detail on this proposed ban, on which I have no opinion. I'm just putting this here as a placeholder and to make people aware that it is also proposed (though I'm not aware of the proposed duration or scope). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

NYScholar has presented a very serious WP:OWNership problem at Harold Pinter. For many months, and even years, he/she has blocked all attempts of other editors to revise the article. In its current form, Harold Pinter is so difficult to wade through, and the citation format is so Baroque, that numerous editors have been discouraged from even trying. See, for example: [2] A peer review was recently opened, but the main suggestions about simplifying the referencing style were not accepted by this editor. NYScholar is so prolific, that he/she buries any objections under a flurry of talk page discussion so voluminous that it is nearly impossible to read (note the talk page's voluminous archives). A quick look at the footnotes in Harold Pinter will, I think, show the seriousness of the problem. As Steve Smith wrote with respect to the copyright issue above, Scholar edits with zeal, persistence, and an absolute conviction of her/his own correctness, even in the face of unanimous disagreement from other editors. His/her former mentor wrote: [3]. Another editor wrote: [4]. S/he also removes other editors comments from the talk page if he does not deem them relevant. See, e.g., [5]. Since NYScholar's last ban [6], s/he has continued to bar other editors from working on the article] [Updated evidence. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)].

In light of this continued pattern of behaviour, I do not believe that NYScholar is able to contribute usefully to the Harold Pinter article, and I believe that his/her involvement in the article is disruptive. Since the article requires so much repair, I suggest a ban of some number of months to permit other editors a chance to try improve the article without his/her interference. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Endorse proposed ban

1. Ssilvers (talk) 23:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
2. Tim riley (talk) 06:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
3. Jack1956 (talk)
4. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
5. Jezhotwells (talk) 12:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
6. Dreamspy (talk) 15:45, 26 June 2009
7. Orderinchaos 19:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
8. Blurpeace (talk) 07:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
9. Will Beback: This user has made 2765 edits to the article, while the second busiest editor has made just 60 edits. This editor has also made 2/3 of all talk page contributions, and a review of the recent ones shows ownership problems which the editor has failed to correct despite having them pointed out to him repeatedly. The editor is passionate about the topic and dedicated to improving the article. However this is a collaborative project and the editor does not seem comfortable with that reality.   Will Beback  talk  10:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC) PS: I do not think the user should be allowed to edit the talk page nor other articles closely related to Pinter.   Will Beback  talk  21:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
10. Abd (talk) 13:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC) However, I'm uncomfortable with the total exclusion of NYScholar, who should be able to suggest changes. Page ban to the article may be more appropriate, with self-reverted edits to the article allowed; in that way, NYScholar may be able to efficiently suggest article changes, but they must be "seconded" by another editor and accepted directly or with modification. I have seen this result in improved cooperation, it forces the "expert," who may, indeed, know more about the subject than other editors (which explains at least part of the voluminous discussion), to engage and convince them instead of merely overpowering them. Tl;dr editing to the Talk page is also a problem, but there are ways of effectively addressing the legitimate part of objections to this. Overall, NYScholar should find and keep a mentor, who should have the ability to suggest to the administrator who closes this ban, and who should be responsible for maintaining and interpreting it, that NYScholar be further restricted, or that the restrictions be lifted, without further ado. If he cannot find such a mentor, acceptable to the closing administrator, that should be a sign to him that he's the problem, or that the world isn't ready for him. --Abd (talk) 13:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
11. -- Earle Martin [^t/_c] 18:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
12. teb728 t c 22:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC) I hesitated to endorse this ban, but having read NYScholar’s comments below, I see that NYS *does* think (s)he owns that article.
13. I am disappointed to see that the mentoring has failed and that we are back here with the same problems once again. I endorse the proposals here, but I must note that in reference to Abd's comments above about "self-reverting edits" for page banned users, I would caution any such editor from doing this as it does not have the support of the community and is likely to wind up with such an editor being blocked (and it's worth noting that Abd ended up blocked for doing exactly that). When a user's disruption gets to the level of requiring the community to step in and issue bans, there are serious problems and flouting a page ban with self-reverting edits is likely to end up with that editor blocked and users who make any edits to pages they've been banned from - self-reverting or not - do so at their own risk. If NYScholar ends up page or topic banned, I expect that to mean that he will not edit those pages, period, or risk being blocked, and that is what I am endorsing, not some sort of get out of jail free card wherein he continues making edits but self-reverts them so a friend can come along and restore his edits for him, thus continuing his problematic behaviour via proxy. Even if this kind of thing had broad community support (it doesn't) in NYScholar's case it would be extremely problematic due to the sheer volume of edits he makes flooding pages - 2765 to this article alone and 2/3 of the talk page's total edits. No, banned means banned. And perhaps if his flood of edits can be controlled other editors will be able to go in and make progress and reach some consensus for resolving some of the problems on that page. Sarah 02:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
14. Not for "being wrong", but for "ownership" and repeated inability to discuss the article constructively. rspεεr (talk) 07:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
15. Serious ownership issues, failure to discuss agreements with other editors (I just took a look to Harold Pinter's peer review). Myself, I saw problems with refusing to accept the fair use policy on images, and readding wikilinks multiple times after multiple editors removed them and explained why they shouldn't be there. Also, in the talk page, I see him making tl;dr replies that don't address the issues at hand. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
16. Verbal chat 14:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
17. Endorse for the time being, until he has demonstrated history of good editing practices elsewhere. (Also think the block should explicitly cover any Pinter-related article and not just the main one). DreamGuy (talk) 21:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose proposed ban

1. NYScholar
2. But let's not confuse this with support for his actions. A short term block for disruptive behavior is in order before we go all the way to a ban. — BQZip01 — ^talk 02:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment

As stated above, I find these actions on the part of these editors outrageous. --NYScholar (talk) 00:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I spent several weeks working collaboratively throughout the late summer/fall of 2007 with a good article reviewer named Willow [need to find user link later (did so now)] (she is possibly still inactive as she has been for the past few months) to bring Harold Pinter through its "good article" review, which was successful in October 2007.User talk:WillowW/Archive11#Harold Pinter (cont.)

After Pinter's death was announced (25 Dec. 2008) User:Jezhotwells, who at that time had recently returned to Wikipedia, entered the article (which had been stable for a very long time) and began to complain vociferously and continually about its prevailing citation style and other things; whenever I and other editors did not support Jezhotwell's views, the editor would file RfC and [mediation] requests and [various] project page complaints about me and the article, getting very little to no support. The RfC ended with two editors finding the citation style "reasonable" and agreeing with what I said about it, respectively; then Jezhotwells took the matter to "peer review", where some editors found the article of very high "quality", while Ssilvers jumped on Jezhotwell's bandwagon about citation style. The comments Ssilvers makes are all taken out of context, and highly partial. The article stands on its own two feet. One can simply read it and work to "improve" it, and then see if those edits stand up to further editors' consensus. I've contributed most of the work on the article (between approx. June 2006 and now), including providing the source citations; the material is there. Other editors are free to work on it further. It's been a great deal of work, unappreciated by Jezhotwells and Ssilvers, and some others, but appreciated by Willow and several other editors, including those commenting in the current "peer review". To ban the main contributor with the most expert knowledge of the subject from working on the article is, in my understanding of "improvement" and how Wikipedia works, wholly outrageous and even highly offensive. It shows a total lack of respect for hard work. There is no way that I am preventing anyone from working on the article. They seem to choose to want to talk about it in talk pages and review pages rather than actually to contribute work to editing it. They are of course free to work on it. I will be engaged in doing other work outside of Wikipedia, as my talk page notice states. --NYScholar (talk) 00:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC) [Added link to WillowW's user name and to her talk page w/ good article rev. disc. for convenience of others here. These links are provided already in Talk:Harold Pinter. --NYScholar (talk) 03:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)]

Please see the 2 secs. on Talk:Harold Pinter/archive7#RfC: Article style secs. re: its current citation (MLA) style. [One sec. was inadvertently archived prematurely and restored right afterward (contrary to Ssilver's insinuations above.]: only 2 editors responded to Jezhotwell's RfC:

(1) IceCreamExpress said that it was "reasonable" but that s/he could "imagine other choices that would also be reasonable": (added the dir. quotations for convenience here:)

Use of MLA citation format seems like a reasonable choice to me. Did you have a different template in mind? I can imagine other choices that would also be reasonable. IceCreamEmpress (talk) 17:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

IceCream's request of Jezhotwells for suggestion of an alternative ("different template") got no reply.

(2)In response to my explanation of the style (see the link to the RfC if wish to read it), Levalley wrote:

"I just want to say that I agree with pretty much everything NYScholar says (which is a rare moment in time, that I agree with anyone and don't feel like adding a lot). Consistently is the main standard. If you start holding we who actually want to fix and add substance to articles to arcane disputes about style and citations, well, Wikipedia is the same as dead. As long as it is consistent, any reader of English can figure out what is meant, even the marginally competent. I am not at all being uncivil, I mean this in the most sincere way possible.Levalley (talk) 04:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)--LeValley" (Q added from RfC sec. 1 link above).

--NYScholar (talk) 03:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I have stated that I have no intention of participating in any "featured article" review. What happens to the article as it goes through that process will have no input from me. I do not see how my views of citation style have anything to do with that process. I have supplied a consistent MLA style sheet format for the article. What happens to it after it might be "stable" enough to be nominated for a FAC, has nothing to do with me. I stated that in the peer review. (cont.)

How I am preventing anything I do not know. I provided enough consistency in the style citations so that anyone can read them and understand them. But one has to be willing to do so. What I see is obstinant unwillingness to accept the views of the editors responding in the RfC. I can't do anything about other people's attitudes. They are responsible for them. I can only say that I worked hard to provide content and a consistent format for the article. If others do not appreciate that, it is not my responsibility to try to change their minds. They themselves have to be flexible enough to adapt to changing disciplinary documentation styles, which are continually evolving in writing and scholarly and critical research. --NYScholar (talk) 01:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Without wading into any of the other issues raised here, it looks to me as though the citation format used in the article is largely unlike that used at any other article I have seen on Wikipedia. It is unnecessarily complicated for the layman to follow; the preferred format (by extensive usage across Wikipedia) is for statements to be cited to specific portions of specific works. This has the double advantage of being extremely simple for readers (who outnumber editors by many orders of magnitude, so we must always remember to write for them first); click the convenient superscripted number^[1], and get taken directly to the relevant entry in the references list, with either handy links to the reference itself or sufficient publisher data to enable the reader to find the reference online or in a library system. The second advantage is that style also makes it much simpler for editors to both verify and edit/update content in the article. The citation style as it stands, while it does conform to MLA standards, is much better suited to academic essays that will be read by experts who in many cases will have at least a passing familiarity with the sources than to articles on Wikipedia which in the majority of cases will be read by laymen. As it stands now, readers must read the article, then go to a reference and read an exegesis on the references which support/disprove the statement in question, and then go through a very long list of references to find the relevant work(s). This does a disservice to our readership, which is the overriding concern, as well as making it functionally impossible for other editors to add or edit references and content. Again, I don't wish to weigh in on anything else, but this problem alone calls for a large restructuring of the article to be more reader friendly, while still retaining the extensive sources used. //roux   03:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly so. Unfortunately, NYScholar has been resisting all efforts by editors for over a year to change to a simpler and more WP conventional reference style. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

This is an outright false statement. It's patently untrue. Jezhotwells didn't even come along to this article until Dec. 25, 2008. Up until then the article had passed a "good article review" in Oct. 2007, with MLA style in it.

Moreover, I've had made continual changes to accommodate Jezhotwell's various requests since late December 2008. In January 2009, as a result of all those efforts by me, Jezhotwells declared the article "vastly improved"; I suggest you look at the "mediation" s/he filed then [now archived in its talk page].

There is abuse in it directed at me which should not be there, but it is by someone who has not returned, and who has a history of engaging in such abuse of other editors.

Jezhotwells never even responded to the question addressed to him/her in the RfC as to what alternative style s/he wanted. Just read the talk pages and editing history. Apparently, Ssilvers has not takent the time to do that. Every time J. made a comment, I tried to respond by adjusting to the request.

My mentor Shell did not really take the time to follow all that was going on and just accepted Jezhotwells' version of the story. She was too preoccupied with personal things and lost her patience with the whole thing.

I have no interest in participating in any featured article review process with this article or any other article. How Ssilvers sees that as standing in the way of allowing other editors to edit this article I cannot fathom. I leave that to others when the time comes. --NYScholar (talk) 06:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Could you please address my concerns with the citation format, as outlined above, particularly with regards to the difficulty faced by editors wishing to edit content? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that was your goal; it's an unintended consequence. //roux   06:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

No, of course that was not my intention. I supplied content from a great number of print sources in my own personal library (I've a large collection). I have over 40 years of accumulated books, articles, and other sources, all of which are carefully documented in publications of my own and others. I cannot help the fact that print sources are the most reliable sources on Pinter (as on most literary subjects), but that is a fact. Online sources can be notoriously unreliable, repetitive, and cliched. Newspaper articles are hardly as reliable as carefully-researched peer-reviewed articles and books. They are simply easier for amateur writers to cite because they are online sources and more accessible, but they are not necessarily correct or accurate. Indeed one of the Guardian's reporters reporting on Pinter's Nobel has a significant error of fact in her article, and I won't link to it for that reason or cite it as a reliable source.

My goal was to provide content and documentation of source citations to verify it in a thorough account of Pinter's life and work (via the related articles too). If they are print sources, they have to be verified in articles and books from libraries or personal collections. I don't know how to address your concerns about what other editors, who do not have access to these cited souces are to do if they are adamant about changing the prevailing MLA style of citations in the endnotes and Works cited. I think that they need to be more respectful of the work already done, in my view, as it is being done by one of the principal authorities in this field (me). Instead of trusting my judgment, they have been maligning me in the most offensive manner. That is unfortunate. It is really not my inflexibility that is going to create future errors in this article; it is the inflexibility of other editors who know relatively little about the subject and their commensurate unwillingness to accept that an academic scholar knows enough to write a "good article" in Wikipedia. (Remember that the article already passed a "good article review" in the course of which it was already revised considerably. Then Pinter died, and the article needed considerable updating.

The other editors, by virtue of this kind of "ban" request filing and earlier incivilities toward me, have just made it so unpleasant for me to continue working with them, that they have forced me into a position of no longer wanting to take part in working on the article beyond its current stage prior to its possible submissin (later) as a featured article candidate.

Editing here is a voluntary act. I have not got the time to become further upset by this process, and I have decided not to take part in any feature article review that might go on in the future.

I have no advice other than to consult the sources cited. They are accurately and correctly cited. If they are print sources, one needs to use libraries and/or bookstores to obtain them. Otherwise, one will simply be mimicking (possibly plagiarizing from) already published online articles in other encyclopedia and websites, as often occurs in Wikipedia when reliable third-party sources are not consulted firsthand. The farther one gets from examining sources firsthand, the more likely to be mistakes that will mislead readers. I have already streamlined many of the notes. No one seems even to have noticed that; I did a lot of that work over the past few days. There are editorial interpolations visible in editing mode. If you go into editing mode, you will see them. I'm not sure I really understand the above editor's questions addressed to me. I am just guessing at what you may be getting at. If I missed it, please restate. In general, one cannot expect a general Wikipedia editor who is not a specialist in a field to have as much knowledge about the subject and the sources as an academic specialist in the field. This is the case with "Pinter studies": it is a field in which advanced level graduate students write Ph.D. dissertations citing sources written by people like me and my colleagues. This article is not written in "advanced academic idiom"; it is written for the general reader. But the sources are the quality of advanced Pinter studies. Some of them are the best available sources in this field. --NYScholar (talk) 06:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

You didn't really address anything I said. At no point did I criticise the content of the references; the article seems excellently sourced. For an academic essay, the format is, as I said, reasonable when one is presumably putting the work in front of experts who are already familiar with the subject. That is not the case with the vast majority of our readership, and the current citation format in the article is not only significantly more difficult for the layman, but is also incredibly difficult for editors to navigate around, as opposed to the Wikipedia-wide standard of using e.g. {{cite book}} to format references for statements in articles. I am the last person on Wikipedia to complain about experts writing articles; frankly, we should be encouraging it. Our antipathy towards experts is stupid and self-defeating. But my concern is that with your obvious familiarity with writing for your contemporaries you have somewhat missed the fact that we are writing for laypeople--as well as making editing easier for each other whenever possible. It has been alleged that you are stonewalling attempts to move all the citations to the general sitewide norms; without commenting on whether or not that's accurate (and for the purposes of this question I simply don't care), would you be willing to work with other editors to bring the referencing for that article in line with what is practiced across the majority of the project? //roux   07:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of patently untrue, a summary of the mentorship might be helpful at this point. NYScholar agreed to mentorship last September after a discussion on AN/I about the possibility of a community ban.[7] Some of the issues were resolved, for instance, NYScholar no longer makes an issue of gender pronouns during discussion. Others we were unable to resolve, for instance the immediate accusations of abuse and personal attacks when someone disagrees with xem or the extreme persistence when NYScholar believes xemself to be correct. When the same problematic behavior occurred on the Harold Pinter article, I attempted to address the issue. I was a bit shocked when NYScholar's reply included a lengthy justification for the behavior mixed with a bit of martyrdom and finally even an attempt to shift blame to me.[8] I concluded that while NYScholar had said all the right things during the mentorship, in reality, no behavioral changes had occurred. Since I believed further work would simply break down again when a dispute arose, the mentorship ended on March 21.

NYScholar is capable of excellent, well-researched and well-written contributions. Unfortunately xe seems to be incapable of productively handling disputes over content and xir understanding of copyright misses the big picture; in fact, many of xir blocks for disruption have been over a misunderstanding of copyright issues as they related to Wikipedia and an unwillingness to concede to consensus. Shell ^babelfish 06:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Shell: you misinterpreted my comments at the time and have not reread them, or accepted my pointing that out. I thanked you over and over at the time. But if you don't want to mentor me any longer, that does not mean that I didn't appreciate your earlier efforts. I did not blame you and don't for anything. But I know from my own knowledge of what I wrote where and when, that you were not able to read it and were not able to take the time (at that time) to deal with all this. The fact that I have taken my time to respond to the previous person's question has nothing to do w/ Shell, other than for me to say that the ban request initiator's references to her comments taken out of context do not take account of the entire situation at the time. I am not used to this kind of treatment, as I am a highly respected academic scholar in this field (Pinter studies) and it is painful to deal with the kinds of petty issues that I have been forced to respond to in these talk pages. I'm tired, and I'm hungry, and I'd rather log out for now. I took time to respond to the earlier comment, but I don't have time or energy to read Shell's in detail now. I'll read it another time. --NYScholar (talk) 06:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Needless to say, I'm not surprised that, once again, NYScholar thinks that they are the only one who comprehend the situation; the rest of us simply don't have the capacity understand such things. The assertion that I was short on time or didn't properly deal with the situation is a blatant falsehood designed to cast aspersions on my comments. I was initially drawn to mentoring NYScholar because I believed the facade of poor misunderstood expert just trying to get along on Wikipedia. Six months of mentorship was enough to thoroughly destroy my illusions in that area.

As you can see from comments here and on NYScholar's talk, when the proverbial shit hits the fan, NYScholar will make noises in all directions of taking a wikibreak, no time for Wikipedia, real life is more important, no further interest in working on the subject area etc. This statement is usually accompanied by a tldr explanation of how only NYScholar really understands the situation, everyone else is mistaken or mislead etc. Despite this you'll note that NYScholar never actually stops editing Wikipedia; these tactics are only used to avoid dealing with the disputed issues and make communication difficult. If history serves, NYScholar will next stop using talk pages and repeatedly blank their talk except to say that they are not available to deal with these issues.

I apologize for my unusual candor here, but this combination of smug self-righteousness and perfidious self-pity simply turns my stomach. Shell ^babelfish 04:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

NYScholar's apparent attitude is common among experts, who somehow imagine that they know more about the topic than the average Wikipedia editor, or even than all other Wikipedia editors. And they might be right. Definitely, it's a problem, but Wikipedia too often resolves the problem by tossing the expert, and the accuracy and neutrality of our content suffers. We should explore intermediate options which preserve and even value the expertise, but which place the expert where experts belong: as advisors. We should value advisors who are voluminous in their advice, but we should constrain and filter that. I appreciate it when my doctor takes the time to explain in detail to me why my opinions about my condition, based on my own research, are bogus, but I fire the doctor if the doctor tries to control my decisions. It is an error to expect NYScholar to filter himself, except as to civility, but it would not be an error to set up, for him, what might be called a "supervising editor," someone with rapport with him and the patience to read his discussions, but who also has the communication skills to mediate or advise him as to how to effectively persuade the community to accept what is valuable about his contributions. Experts are often poor communicators, it's part of the problem. Others specialize in communication and are good at it. Pending the discovery of such a supervising editor, NYScholar should be restricted to avoid disruption. Perhaps one of the editors who has supported NYScholar in the past will volunteer. --Abd (talk) 13:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

As I mentioned, that's exactly what I thought when I first saw the issue and trust me, if you'd ever like to commiserate over the tangible loss to Wikipedia when experts decide its not worth the effort, I could probably chew your ear off. The reason I took this mentorship (btw, NYScholar sought me out) has to do with my experience working with experts, translating for them with others and even helping them develop skills to edit successfully here; many a night has been spent on the phone calming someone who's irate when their knowledge is met with rudeness or incomprehensible wiki-jargon. We may not like it, but Wikipedia, as is, isn't well suited for experts.

Anyways, long story short, two editors have tried exactly what you describe with NYScholar. Please look above and see how even now, NYScholar claims that all of this occurred because I just couldn't understand. You've interacted with me in many places before Abd - do you really think the case is that I was simply unable to understand any of the issues that occurred? That final incident which caused me to release NYScholar from mentorship was one in a long string of repeated issues that all followed exactly the same pattern: NYScholar and I would discuss strategies for working on Wikipedia and handling issues; xe would agree on how to handle things right up until an actual issue occurred at which time everything would go up in flames. I will help experts learn to operate here and be at their beck and call for issues that occur - I will not be their midden boy left to clean up messes they refuse to address or even accept an ounce of responsibility for. Shell ^babelfish 15:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposed community ban of NYScholar

I may have been hasty in proposing the topic ban above, in that I did not fully research NYScholar's history here. I have since done so, and I would like to propose an indefinite community ban of NYScholar for exhausting the community's patience. NYScholar's prior block history is here, so one can see that the problem goes back at least to 2006: NYScholar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The following is a brief history of NYScholar's major appearances on this board and ANI since May 2007:

May 2007: NYScholar blocked for legal threats. He/she is unblocked after the threats are retracted, but User:Swatjester objects to the unblock on the basis of this edit, in which NYScholar acknowledges having read WP:LEGAL but refuses to retract the threat.

February 2008: Block against NYScholar overturned. User:Hesperian blocks NYScholar for 24 hours for repeatedly and disruptively archiving threads on her/his user talk page while they're still in progress. User:Sandstein unblocks without discussion, which is the proximate cause of the ANI thread. However, it turns into a general thread about NYScholar's conduct and editing habits. During that discussion, the following editors participate:

• Editors supporting Hesperian's block/agreeing that NYScholar's behaviour is disruptive: User:Crotalus horridus ("I think NYScholar should stay blocked, preferably indefinitely."), User:Hesperian ("[NYScholar's talk page archive] shows reams and reams of discussion from angry, frustrated people, who want a redress that NYScholar is denying them through what amounts to a low down dirty trick. If this is not disruptive, I'll eat my hat."), User:Pairadox ("it becomes almost impossible to work collaboratively with NYScholar."), User:B ("If NYScholar is going to abuse the privilege of archiving talkpage comments, then he needs to be placed on some kind of probation in that regards."), User:Orderinchaos ("a probation of some form should be the minimum expectation here."), User:Moondyne ("NYS is possibly the most frustrating editor I've come across here."), User:Sarah ("His talk page practices are massively disruptive."), User:Will Beback ("Inappropriate material should be deleted from either but appropriate material should not be removed whether by deletion or by overly-rapid archiving. If folks can't or won't deal with other users they should find a non-collaborative project."), User:SlimVirgin ("I'm afraid I agree with Crotalus that an indefblock might have been the best thing some time ago.")
• Editors supporting Sandstein's unblock/disputing that NYScholar's behaviour is disruptive: User:Jossi ("Encourage the user to follow WP:DR, or, if the behavior iwarrants it, start a user WP:RFC, so that the community can give him feedback."), User:Ned Scott ("Another bad block."), User:Sandstein ("I fail to understand how someone can be blocked merely for the act of deleting or archiving content on their talk page."), User:Philippe ("But archive it "early", when we have no guidelines about how long message should stay there? I can't see that as a disruption.")

July 2008: Conflict between NYScholar and Stuthomas4. User:NYScholar brings a complaint about personal attacks by User:Stuthomas4 to ANI, though editors examining the dispute conclude that NYScholar is the problem. As a result of the discussion, he/she is blocked until she/he finds a mentor. The following editors participated in the discussion:

• Editors supporting sanctions against NYScholar/Agreeing that his/her behaviour is disruptive: User:Stuthomas4 ("I believe that there are several users that will attest to the fact that NYScholar has driven many long-time and collaborative editors from this article through brow beating and the sheer mass of the number of edits."), User:Sarah ("I just looked at that talk page and it looks like NYScholar is once again being an obstructionist and driving people away"), User:ThuranX ("In addition to being a rampant obstructionist, NYScholar deflects all discussion by invoking various rules and policies."), User:Shell Kinney ("I would also have to agree with he above assessments of your behavior; you are very combative and skilled at winning by simply wearing down anyone who disagrees with you."), User:Hesperian ("NYScholar's management of his talk page is disruptive."), User:Seicer ("judging from the overwhelming consensus against NYScholar, that criticizes the editor for gross incivility/disruption, edit warring and refusal to discuss any changes, I would support an extended block."), User:Wikidemo (" The issue isn't bad faith versus good faith. Whether sincere or not (and there's no reason to doubt the editor's sincerity) their presence on Wikipedia has been disruptive, causing lots of grief and wasted time."), User:John Carter ("Neutral administrator supports block of above editor, based on previous discussion and discussion above."), User:Aunt Entropy ("Neutral editor seconds that emotion."), User:Moondyne ("NYScholar is incapable of getting on with the rest of the community."), User:Sandstein (" NYScholar does not appear to be able to work productively in a collaborative environment. I would support any sanctions imposed by an uninvolved administrator that would remedy this issue (including an indefinite block) until NYScholar shows clearly that he understands what the problem is and will act accordingly."), User:Orderinchaos ("I'd support [a community ban]]."), User:Viriditas ("Support longer block without an agreement to engage in mandatory mentorship.")
• Editors opposing sanctions against NYScholar/Disagreeing that her/his behaviour is disruptive: User:Erik ("I think that much of NYScholar's edits have been excellent, but he/she seems unable to cordially discuss challenged edits, so the focus has moved from his/her contributions to his/her conduct with other editors... I do not believe that this...warrants a call for administrative action and possible blocks."), User:Steve ("...in response to comments from NYScholar that some have interpreted as not in the best spirit of collaboration. I happen to agree with that assessment of NYScholar's attitude, but I would urge that no action is taken at this time against either editor.")

September 2008: NYScholar issues revisited. NYScholar was eventually unblocked when she/he was adopted by User:Ecoleetage. That arrangement lasted until August 2008, when Ecoleetage released NYScholar into the wild. In light of continued problems with NYScholar's editing, several users questioned this action. After discussion, NYScholar was remanded to the mentorship of User:Shell Kinney. The following editors participated in that discussion:

• Editors opposing NYScholar's release/agreeing that his/her editing remained problematic/supporting sanctions: User:Wikidemon ("As you can tell I've suffered some bizarre and unpleasant encounters with this editor before. As judged through the filter of reading the text he types out on the pages here his behavior is simply not normal."), User:ThuranX ("I therefore support a community ban. All other avenues of recourse having been tried, and the clear demonstration of a lack of desire to comply being evident, there's no choice left but to 'ask' NYScholar to leave this project for greener pastures."), User:Sarah ("I'm really rather astounded that anyone could look at NYScholar's posts to this page and conclude that the problem is everyone else."), User:Gnangarra ("IMHO there is reason to re-instate the block."), User:Orderinchaos ("the immediate reversion of NYScholar to his/her/its/their/NYScholar's old behavior shows that NYScholar continues to be unable to work with others"), User:Aunt Entropy ("I would ask you to do three things: quit assuming bad faith while demanding others show you good faith, quit attacking others while demanding civility from others, and quit saying you are signing off when you don't.")
• Editors supporting NYScholar's release/disagreeing that her/his editing remained problematic/opposing sanctions: User:Keeper76 ("I have personally had nothing but positive experiences with NYScholar."), User:JeremyMcCracken (" These issues aren't major problems in need of administrator attention."), User:Ecoleetage ("If there is any shred of decency out there, drop this matter immediately."), User:Erik the Red 2 ("NY is a good contributor, who has done many good things for this projects.")

Anybody wondering how Shell's mentorship of NYScholar went, need only examine the above comments from both.

I initially proposed a topic ban because I believe in using the narrowest possible sanctions that will address problematic behaviour. In this case, the narrowest sanction that will accomplish that is an indefinite community ban. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Disclosure: I have contacted everybody whose comments I quoted above with a neutrally worded message. The only exceptions are User:Jossi and User:Ecoleetage, both of whom are indefinitely blocked, and User:Shell Kinney, who is already an active participant in this thread. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Endorse proposed community ban

• Endorse I'm sad to say that this user doesn't appear to be a good fit for Wikipedia - even though they are trying to operate in good faith and I am absolutely convinced that their disruption does not arise from an *intent* to disrupt, more an incapacity to comprehend how their actions are viewed by others. I'm not surprised to see them here again behaving in a similar fashion to previously over yet another editing topic, and there comes a time when one has to say "the level of drama and the amount of other user's time being consumed here is hindering development of the encyclopaedia and we should do something about it". Orderinchaos 11:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse. In July 2008 I said we'd be back here again within 6 months. NYScholar was again the subject of discussion just three months later in September 2008. Since then a mentor with the patience of a Saint has declared NYS is "unable to understand or accept your responsibilities in intra-personal communications with respect to Wikipedia and that further intervention is unlikely to produce a change in the problematic behaviors."[9] I endorse that sentiment and this proposal. –Moondyne 12:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse. My interactions with NYScholar have led me to conclude that, although NYScholar *wants* to make content contributions to WP, his/her actions amount to WP:OWNership; and s/he eventually reverts or overwrites the contributions of all other editors on the articles on which s/he works. Furthermore, even if his/her intention is to make good faith contributions, I must conclude that his/her tactics are *not* in good faith. S/he has been editing here since 2005 and has learned how to time his/her edits, wikilawyer and game the system, especially by burying everyone else's concerns in a torrent of repetitive and argumentative talk page comments and through extraordinary persistence. I also must sadly conclude that s/he is a liability to the Wikipedia project. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse This user has contributed to many Wikipedia article and has much to bring to the project, BUT she/he has consistently refused to work collaboratively with editors and has resorted to bludgeoning and browbeating, deliberately not answering points raised by others, accusing others of bad faith, exhibiting extreme ownership of articles and generally frightening away editors, e.g. here [10] and here [11]. Sadly I feel that the only course is a community ban which may hopefully bring home the point that this is a community project and relies on co-operation, rather than confrontation. I must confess that on one occasion, under what I felt was severer provocation, I resorted to abuse and was gently reminded by Shell that that was not the way and I apologised for that abuse. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse As noted above by other editors, the question is one of collaboration and capacity for working collaboratively. The WP:OWNership point, made above, is, I fear, inescapable. (Later: Apologies: was inadvertently not logged on: correct signature: Tim riley (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC))
• Endorse. NYScholar has repeatedly demonstrated a vast gulf between the knowledge NYScholar possesses, and any responsible means to work with anyone else to get it into an article. The obstructionism via bureaucracy continues, the gender thing may have been 'resolved', but I doubt that its' anything but teeth-gnashing behind the screen now, because I doubt that NYScholar truly understands that issue. We may lose a smart editor, but we also lose one who doesn't even try to use talk apges to compromise, learn, or discuss. ThuranX (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse with regrets. Shell seems to believe the situation is one which will not improve, and Shell is probably more patient and generous than I am. John Carter (talk) 17:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse. I came across the issues with NYScholar and the Pinter article some months ago, and am saddened to see that no progress has been able to be made. This is a last resort. -- Earle Martin [^t/_c] 18:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse, he doesn't fit in with the Wikimedia atmosphere. I feel bad, and I have regrets doing this, but it seems like he has left us with only this choice. –blurpeace ^(talk) 20:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse - with reservations. I asked NYScholar a pointed yes/no question above about working with editors to address the citation issues and bring them into line with Wikipedia norms. He has not yet responded, though he has made around 50 or so edits since the question was asked. I can only presume, from perusing the voluminous diffs above, that he has no intent of doing so... which is really a crystal-clear answer of its own. Looking through his talkpage history (interesting to note how often he archives), I have to concur with Shell Kinney above; he is simply uninterested in actually discussing issues and prefers to bury people in walls of text, while pretending to 'retire' or 'bee too busy' every time the heat gets turned up too high. This is without even getting into the intense wikilawyering--on his talkpage he implies that topic bans can't be implemented here because the header of this page doesn't mention them. While I deplore the loss of yet another expert, his expertise is not the issue here; the complete lack of interest in acting in a collaborative manner is. //roux   20:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse - last time was last and final chance paired up with an able mentor. Sorry to say, we are at an impasse...at this point it seems there's nothing more that can be done to enable this editor to work within a collaborative and collegiate atmosphere. 21:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC) er...that was me Auntie E (talk) 14:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse with regret. I hesitated to endorse even the ban on Harold Pinter, but having read NYScholar’s comments under that proposed ban, I see that NYS *does* think (s)he owns that article. It is a shame to lose NYS’s expertise. Perhaps (somewhat as Abd proposed above) NYS could accept an advisory role, allowing others to control presentation (without filibustering). But I doubt NYS would accept such a role. Based on the reported experience of NYS’s former mentors, I am confident that another mentoring arrangement would not work. —teb728 t c 22:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse: Someone who's been indefinitely blocked on two separate occasions should get the point by now.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse. I've seen him add three tags (unreferenced, unbalanced, NPOV) to the top of an article, plus a bunch of citation tags within it, simply because he didn't get his own way over something trivial, usually to do with citation style, even when he's arriving at a stable article he's never edited before. If someone complains about it on talk, he has a tendency to archive. If they unarchive, he'll post a complaint about them elsewhere. If that person is an admin, he'll complain about admin abuse, and on and on. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse per apparent inability to learn to play nice with others. Jclemens (talk) 23:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Most of NYScholar's content contributions have been very good and are very valued, but ultimately Wikipedia is a collaborative project and if one cannot collaborate with others in a constructive manner and can't or won't find a way to get along with other contributors the community inevitably reaches the point of having to step in and make difficult decisions. In NYScholar's case we'd be losing a good content contributor, but what else can be done? I don't see any point in trying a third mentorship and it seems as we've exhausted all other options, NYScholar has exhausted the community's patience. We've spent huge amounts of time on this and the situation doesn't seem to have improved at all, despite the best and commendably patient efforts of Shell. Reading this latest dispute, I get a sense of "same story, different faces" as we're back here again with a new cast of names complaining about the exact same issues with NYScholar that numerous other editors have complained about in previous disputes. NYScholar continues to refuse to accept responsibility and continues to dismiss complaints, accusing other editors of being at fault, of holding vendettas, of being intolerant and unaccepting of experts and academics, etc and of course, NYScholar is always in the right and the other editors simply lack NYScholar's insight and understanding of issues. Unfortunately he seems unable to collaborate and get along with anyone who disagrees with him and doesn't yield to him, from disputes ranging from pure content disputes through to something of a merely personal preferential nature such as the choice of reference formating style. It is disappointing to read the discussions about the reference formating which have a sense of ego and a persistent refusal to compromise or to accept problems here lie with anyone but the "mostly amateur editors". Wikipedia isn't the right place for everyone. The fact that we continue to have the exact same problems with whole new sets of people, despite very lengthy discussions and two attempts at mentoring, leads me to believe that Wikipedia and NYScholar are simply not a good fit for each other. While I strongly agree Wikipedia could do better in working with and embracing academics, I reject NYScholar's attempt to pass his ongoing problems off as Wikipedia's inability to work with academics and frankly some of the comments he's been making on talk pages give the impression he expects Wikipedia to give him greater standing as a self-identifying academic (albeit one who refuses to prove it and as we all know, in this post-Essjay world all contributors must be judged on the merits of their edits not who or what they claim to be in real life) and resents being treated in the same way as everyone else, expert or not, whose edits are judged purely on their merits. I suspect this expectation of greater standing may actually be the basis of much of these problems and if so it is unresolvable as Wikipedia is not equipped to give self-claiming experts and academics greater standing and is built around putting everyone at the same level. I would prefer to be able to find a resolution without banning but given the extensive background and the fact that these issues have been recurring for years now just with different names on the other side, I don't see any other realistic alternatives and if past experience is any indicator, a topic/page ban would just result in the problems migrating to a new page with new people (as it did when NYScholar turned his attention from Heath Ledger to Harold Pinter). And so it is with regret that I endorse this community ban proposal. (apologies for the long statement.) Sarah 04:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse as proposed, obviously. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse I see two choices here - one is to waste other editors just as valuable time coming here every time things get out of hand and pulling NYScholar clawing and screaming off whatever she's latched onto this time; this approach would also require editors ready to clean up after NYScholar since we see repeated issues with citations and other obscure things. The other is to stop wasting time on the notion that NYScholar's contributions are more important than everyone else's somehow and politely explaining that their particular talents, no matter how formidable, aren't suited for Wikipedia. I'd also like to note that Harold Pinter is only the most recent thing NYScholar has declared themselves an "expert" on; either we have a genius with multiple degrees and an indefinite amount of time on their hands or, as I've come to believe, we have a layperson or college student, incredibly skilled at bullshitting and manipulating others to get their way. And in case you didn't get it out of the discussion above, NYScholar has absolutely no interest in changing their behavior so long as they keep getting away with this. Shell ^babelfish 13:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse Sadly this editor doesn't seem to understand the way that Wiki works as a community and how editors support each other in making this great enterprise work. Jack1956 (talk) 19:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse per failure to communicate and no improvement with mentorship. My comment about opposing sanctions, as cited by Steve Smith, was based on a single incident, and I had not been familiar with NYScholar's conduct outside of that. Since then, though, I have noticed similar incidents with the editor even before this week's AN discussion. Since the behavior has apparently not improved since, and it is critical to Wikipedia's success for constructive dialogue to take place among editors, I cannot see a place for NYScholar here. —Erik (talk • contrib) 18:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse per Shell Kinney. Experts are welcome, and on the rare occasions when one has difficulty adapting to the wiki setting the community should do its best to help them succeed. It appears that every reasonable effort has been made here, and substantial problems remain. Durova^{273 featured contributions} 14:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse per Shell and Steve's comments. -->David Shankbone 18:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose proposed community ban

• Abd (talk) 13:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC) Narrower options should be tried, in particular, NYScholar should be encouraged to find a mentor who is more available and with better rapport. A closing admin here, if there is a close with a site ban, should allow NYScholar to voluntarily restrict editing to the seeking of such a mentor, with the equivalent of a ban elsewhere, and only actually block if NYScholar violates the restrictions placed by the closing admin. This would allow a door to remain open toward useful and effective contributions by NYScholar. The closing admin can always convert the ban to a block if needed. Even without a mentor, the use of self-reversion should be allowed, a topic which should be before ArbComm shortly; whether or not this would be permitted should be up to the closing admin. --Abd (talk) 13:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• I am not adamantly opposed to finding more creative solutions than a ban, though I'm concerned that history shows that NYScholar is incapable of admitting fault, which I believe makes an eventual ban inevitable (though I'd welcome being proven wrong on this, obviously). But I do take issue with your suggestion that NYScholar find a mentor with a "better rapport"; if you examine the history of the relationship between Shell Kinney and NYScholar, I believe that you'll find that Shell was communicative and open minded and NYScholar was incapable of taking advice. I don't believe that there is such thing as a mentor who will succeed where Shell failed. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 15:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad you are not opposed to such, and I hope the closing admin notices this. What I see from the prior mentorships is allegedly (1) a mentor who released NYScholar from mentorship, and (2) one who did not have the time to devote; dealing with someone like NYScholar, a verbose communicator, takes particular skills, and even the skills may not be enough, there must be the time and inclination. What's needed most urgently is a neutral supervising administrator who can state specific bans as needed, and release them when not needed. It's clear to me that there is disruption around NYScholar, but a site ban is quite a blunt instrument and neglects the value of NYScholar's positive contributions. The neutral admin can then approve or change a mentor as needed, without this kind of massive discussion. NYScholar has many complaints about Wikipedia and Wikipedia process that are valid, if coming from a restricted point of view. He expresses himself in detail because he believes that when he's brief, he's misunderstood. Common problem, actually. What he doesn't understand is that when he's voluminous, people dismiss it as obsessive. He needs some clear supervision and assistance. He's a writer who needs a good editor. Good editors, actually, are hard to find; they must have the ability to develop rapport with writers, in addition to other skills. Do we have any of those around here? --Abd (talk) 12:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• Blurpeace (talk) 18:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC) I personally agree with Abd, in that we can try mentoring before we jump to a community ban on editing. He has made many useful contributions to Wikipedia, and I feel that he project's interests at heart, though he has some flaws (as all humans do). This should be a drastic measure, in my humble opinion.
  • Question: Given that there already was a mentor--one of the best we have, in my opinion--what do you think will be different this time? We have a long, long track record of saying "this time it'll be different," and it never is. Betacommand, Guido den Broeder, etc etc etc. The list of names we give endless second (third, fourth, seven thousandth) chances to is as long as my arm, and every single time there is no substantive change. AGF is not a suicide pact. //roux   19:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Already been tried twice - once with Ecoleetage, then with Shell. It is no slight on Shell's abilities that this failed - mentorship is a two-way street. Orderinchaos 19:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I withdraw the statement. I was unaware that mentoring had already been tried, and failed twice. I am still partially against banning NYScholar, due to his great contributions to Wikipedia and his obvious support of the project, so I am abstaining from supporting the ban, but I am not opposing it. –blurpeace ^(talk) 20:08, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
      • I'm switching to support, regretfully. –blurpeace ^(talk) 20:13, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• This user is completely incorrect with regards to copyright law, but a single block in nearly a year is not enough for me to enact a ban across the board. Given his history, a block (a long one? A week or so?) for disruptive editing is appropriate in this case, but not a ban. — BQZip01 — ^talk 02:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I'd agree, but the absolutely consistent record of refusing to acknowledge any kind of fault whatsoever (seriously: the two common characteristics of the previous discussions to which I linked are i. NYScholar posts far, far more than everyone else, and ii. NYScholar does not acknowledge that his/her behaviour was in any way anything short of optimal) suggests that any kind of partial or temporary measure is likely to be ineffective. If the community wants to use a series of escalating blocks and then execute the community ban in six months or so, I'm okay with that as a secondary option, though it seems much more time consuming. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 02:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Well, I've offered to adopt him, so we'll see how that turns out, but I'm willing to give him any/every chance to work his way out of this. — BQZip01 — ^talk 02:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
      • That's admirable. Unfortunately, NYScholar has had enough any/every chances for my tastes, though I recognize that others' tastes may differ. I'd suggest that you have a look at this, though; even at this point, while allegedly seeking a mentor, NYScholar is not interested in self-reflection; he/she is interested in justifying herself/himself. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 03:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Agreeing with Steve. The community has tried to avoid banning NYS, far more so than we usually do, putting up with more ongoing disruption that we generally have in the past from other users. I would not support a third go at mentorship as an alternative to community remedies unless there was some real sign of hope that things would be different this time. While NYScholar continues at pains to explain why everyone else is responsible for his inability to edit collaboratively with other users, refusing to accept any responsibility himself, as he is doing in an alarming way on Jayron's talk page, it seems highly unlikely further mentoring would be successful and would just delay the inevitable. Unless NYScholar genuinely wants to change and find a way to work collaboratively with others (as opposed to continually justifying why he's right and the amateur editors are all wrong) there's really no hope for a third go at mentoring getting a different result. Furthermore, if we go the route of more mentoring, due to the issues involved and the history, the mentor needs to be an experienced mentor (not saying BQZip01 isn't as I don't know him, but just a general comment), otherwise I fear it's just more time-wasting as we lurch towards the inevitability of community sanctions of some description. Sarah 06:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Agreed also with Steve. If previous mentorships hadn't failed, I would be more sympathetic. It should be remembered there are many, many users who interact peaceably here and contribute good content without ever needing mentorship. Orderinchaos 06:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Though I do not agree with NYScholar's positions, I find it an overreaction to ban him for what amounts to "disagreeing with everyone and not backing down". Close down the battles he's losing with focused remedies, and he may not have to lose the whole war. rspεεr (talk) 07:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Your last sentence accurately reflects my initial thought, which is why I first proposed the topic ban. The problem is that I have not found even a single area that NYScholar has extensively edited without problem, which is how I got to a community ban. As an exercise, would you mind developing a topic ban/series of topic bans that you think would do the trick? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 08:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I had not encountered NYScholar until coming across this discussion yesterday. Given the additional background described here, I have changed my mind and I do believe he should be banned from discussing copyright issues, as well as from archiving his talk page. But with how quickly this went from "we should ban him from one article and maybe from the topic of copyright" to "we should ban him completely", it looks more like a lynch mob than a remedy. rspεεr (talk) 20:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
      • As I acknowledged above, I was premature in proposing the topic ban. I should have done the research before proposing any remedy at all, in which case I would have started with a community ban. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 20:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Rspeer, I'd suggest that you more carefully review this case, proposal, and the long-term behaviors of NYScholar before so loudly assuming no one's tried before to fix this. Dozens of editors have spoken to her, he's been almost banned twice before, twice failed at being mentored. They continually works actively to be as intractable as possible, going so far as to immediately disregard any reply, no matter the detail or general civility, if a pronoun is used for him. NYScholar set up gender alone as an insurpassable obstacle to conversation. If anyone referred to NYScholar as a 'he', the reply would be that anyone who assumes an editor has to be male isn't worth listening to. If the editor corrected the pronouns or offered an apology, an equally dismissive 'apology not meant' or 'I never said I was a woman' response would be issued. By so doing, NYScholar would then establish that they would not have to pay attention to that editor anymore, then he'd go back to editing as she pleases. The insistence on full-proper noun only use isn't there either. If you only use proper pronouns, you're dismissed as incivil and patronizing. It became a no-win situation. Likewise, if you somehow surmount that, there would be a barrage of demands for chapter, verse, line and word for policies which would stop his edit from staying. Consensus alone was not enough. Well argued consensus was not enough. Well argued consensus which explained failures of the edit according to policy and guideline was not enough. You had to provide a word by word breakdown of his edit, in which each word of the edit was refuted explicitly by policy. And each editor who opposed him was expected to do that level of work, over and over and over. If you can't be bothered to familiarize yourself with the case, and instead say it's horrible to use that last resort so fast, that becomes insulting to those of us who speak from familiarity with the issues in this case. This is not a rush to judgment. This is a case in which every option truly has been exhausted, because all of the above are symptoms of the editor, not of his conduct with regard to one or two topics within the project. This is him/her/them/it all the time, everywhere. Please review this case and the earlier threads linked above carefully. Thank you. ThuranX (talk) 18:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• (oppose, for dullard vote counters) - hows about limiting NYS to a set no. of posts / words per day / week? or a set no. of articles? or just to his talk page for a month? or just to any talk pages for a month? or anything not quite so ill-defined as one of these 'always confuse, condufddle and end up causing more trouble than ever they solve' 'community' bans? (I think it's always interesting to divide the no. of editors voting at a 'community ban discussion' by the first no. that jumps into your head as roughly the size of 'the community' - the answers are always telling for me! Now Sarc. is a smart chap (and devilishly good looking to boot) - so I respect the fact that further formal action is likely to be necessary here, but hopefully we can stop short of the ban stick :-) Privatemusings (talk) 09:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose blocks and bans are last resorts. Rspeer words this perfectly. We should not ban editors simply because they disagree and don't let something go. Restrict him from being able to actually stop article progress when consensus is against him (no need for traditional mentor stuff, just find a formal way of doing it), sure, but banning him from all of Wikipedia is overkill. I'd rather see this go to arbcom or something, where the community can be given time to formulate something more formal than the topical mentor approaches, if he is stopping actual article progress. -- Ned Scott 12:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - I think the topic bans are fine, but a total ban based upon polling seems like nothing more than an impassioned mob action and not a well thought out response. He's not gone through the normal dispute process, other options are available, and the mere fact that more people support a total ban than support the other two bans shows that the people voting don't seem to get that the "nuke it from orbit" plan is not the only option. DreamGuy (talk) 21:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• Your points are well-taken. With respect to WP:DR, I did consider a WP:RFC/U (the only step in there, other than Arb Comm, that seems applicable here), but NYScholar's absolute and consistent insistence that all problems are attributable entirely to others convinced me that that would be a waste of time. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 21:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• I certainly sympathize with your position, but I think community bans are a bit dangerous in general and would like to see a bit more thought into it as far as solutions. Blocking for refusal to admit to being wrong seems more like thoughtcrime than anything else. DreamGuy (talk) 21:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I think it's the obstructive behaviour (jamming the airwaves, edit warring, ownership, lack of civility or good faith) rather than whatever thoughts are at issue that led to this particular proposal. Orderinchaos 04:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose In reviewing NYScholar's total record, it appears today is this editor's fourth anniversary on Wikipedia -- though it is a shame it is being observed in such a stressful manner. In reviewing the complete history for NYScholar, I am able to locate many positive editorial contributions and successful efforts to improve the quality of a large number of articles. Obviously, something went very wrong with the Harold Pinter article, and perhaps a temporary topic ban on that subject might make sense -- there are other articles where NYScholar's excellent research skills and indefatigable energy can be properly channeled. But a community ban seems like the equivalent of swatting a mosquito with a sledgehammer; clearly there must be a more satisfactory resolution to this matter. Pastor Theo (talk) 23:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Abstain

• I wouldn't write here other than I was notified on my talkpage. I still hold that I've only had positive experiences with NYScholar. But those are aging quickly, and as I've mostly fallen to the side as far as actively "adminning", I won't support or oppose this, basically because I have no recent experience with this editor, but also because I don't care to look or have the time to look at more recent editing patterns and habits. The community will decide this, hopefully it doesn't devolve into a pitchfork and torch fest. So far, it's been a really civil way of saying "we don't want you here", if that is possible. I don't oppose, I don't endorse. An aside, I think that banning in general is an overly bureaucratic and hurtful process, and even when presented "well" and as thorough as this case has been made, it still smacks of legalism and lack of patience with someone that, in my experience, seems to want to do the right thing and simply has the problem of coming across in "personality" as like water trying to go up a duck's back. Abstain. Keeper | 76 01:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• I'll confirm that my comments pasted above are correct, though I'll point out that I was looking at the issue being discussed that day, not of any previous discussions of NYScholar. I looked at the previous discussions linked above, but I can't sort through the previous disputes well enough to try to give an opinion on it. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 08:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Resolution?

I note this thread is winding down in activity; can some resolution be determined, please? ThuranX (talk) 16:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Mediator needed at Talk:Grief porn

Could someone (admin or otherwise) head on over to Talk:Grief porn and try to mediate between 99.135.175.107 (talk · contribs) and Arcayne (talk · contribs) ? I can't really fill this role since anything with the word "porn" is firewalled here (don't worry though, it's SFW) and due to past history with participant(s) I'm recusing. The situation has been spilling out into numerous other forums and there's even an RFC tag up there (which I think should be removed, it needs a mediator, not an RFC). Thanks in advance, –xeno^talk 13:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It's humorous, in a sad way, when two editors continually revert each other with edit summaries that are variations on the phrase "Stop edit warring!". I've commented on the RFC, but I'm not sure a mediator is what's needed, so much as a knocker of heads together. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

A rose by any other name... –xeno^talk 14:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I don't review enough edit wars, but this is the first time I've seen one side so passionate about The Truth(TM) that they revised the DYK template. Isn't that going a little too far? -- llywrch (talk) 19:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I've offered to step in. Hipocrite (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

As one of the participants, i would appreciate the assistance. Only one other editor, Padillah, has beenworking in the article discussion, trying to mediate. He is to be commended for his efforts. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 22:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed on a number of other locations thanks to some forum shopping going on, so claiming that only one other editor is involved with the discussion is severely misleading. DreamGuy (talk) 21:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Admins please note that User:Arcayne has already been strongly cautioned about WP:OWN issues and incivility with this article at WP:WQA and that the discussion has also continued to the RS Noticeboard and, oddly, WP:FRINGE (the pseudoscience of misery lit?), where it looked like the conflict was pretty well resolved except for WP:IDONTHEARYOU problems. DreamGuy (talk) 21:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grief porn. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Dreamguy's very neutral comments aside, the anon was identified as a indef-banned IP user, there to harass me (remember the joyous fun that occasioned the 75 anon user back in March?). Some actual work might get done now. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

"Recommendation" infobox at WP:Userboxes/Politics

Hello. I'm not sure if RfC might be more appropriate for this, but User:Ezhiki has requested I post here.

Ezhiki has created an infobox at the top of WP:Userboxes/Politics which carries a recommendation against the use of userboxes indicating "support for a pro-fascist, far-left or far-right ideology".

Ezhiki cites this discussion with User:Dc76 on his (Ezhiki's) talkpage as evidence of a consensus in favour of the box, but it the idea doesn't seem to have been raised in that discussion, and there doesn't seem to have been any (open) opportunity for other input before the box was put in place.

The box has now been there for at least six months. Three editors have objected, and I have asked Ezhiki to remove the infobox, but he refuses, claiming that he was properly discharging his duties as an admin by putting it there and that it is up to me to post here if I object. You can see the discussion here.

My view is that for a big yellow notice like that to be stuck on a page, there should be a prior process of presenting a draft and gaining a consensus (per WP:DISCUSS) and that the MoS for infoboxes should be followed. Ezhiki should remove the box and instead set that process in motion. WP:BOLD does not apply, because this is not about mainspace.

I don't think it matters, BTW, whether the basic idea of the box is a good thing or a bad thing. My point is that it isn't appropriate for one editor to create an infobox which gives a misleading impression that it reflects policy and the views of the community when no process has been gone through.

If I am right, I would be grateful if someone could explain this to Ezhiki.

Many thanks. --FormerIP (talk) 12:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I just want to clarify that I do not cite this discussion as the evidence of consensus. I cite it as the base on which an (administrative) decision to create and post the big yellow box was made (in order to remind editors of a standing guideline). Other than that, FormerIP's assessment of the essence of the conflict is correct (although I obviously disagree with the arguments he set forth), and I would wholeheartedly welcome further comments regarding the situation.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:45, June 26, 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Since this inquiry mentions User:Dc76, I have notified him of this thread.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:51, June 26, 2009 (UTC)

I might perhaps approve of some of the sentiment, but not so dramatically prominent. No one ed. ought to in this way assert ownership over a policy. DGG (talk) 16:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Administrators are supposed to serve as the first line of defense when enforcing/promoting/educating about existing policies and guidelines. How are these actions "ownership"? If, when doing the said enforcement, I stepped over a line, I would appreciate being explained where the line is and what I did wrong—that's precisely the intent of this inquiry.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:23, June 26, 2009 (UTC)

The intent of the rules on WP:USERPAGE is to keep people from having offensive or disruptive material on their userpage, not to prohibit people from stating their political affiliations in itself. In other words, if you can find a way to state that you support, say, ethnic cleansing in an inoffensive manner, then you can have that statement on your userpage; likewise, if state your support for a moderate, mainstream cause in a way that causes people to have reasonable concerns, then you have to remove it. IMHO, I don't see why anyone feels the need to announce their political, social or sports loyalties on their userpage: doing so always risks the charge of a conflict of interest & keeping people from assuming good will. -- llywrch (talk) 19:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, that much is obvious—I myself wouldn't go as far as to pronounce every single box on Wikipedia:Userboxes/Politics to be "offensive or disruptive" (every one of them is, however, completely and utterly useless, in my opinion). The crux of the dispute is whether the big yellow banner at the top of WP:Userboxes/Politics should stay there (as a reminder of WP:USERPAGE and overall collaborative philosophy of the project), or if it should be taken down, toned down, or completely re-designed. From those in favor of taking/toning it down, the only thing I want to hear is a good, coherent explanation of why having a collection of userboxes in question does not fly in the face of WP:USERPAGE and the spirit of constructive collaboration. From those who think I myself am "possessive" of this banner I would like to hear a suggestion of other ways in which WP:USERPAGE can be enforced in regards to this particular collection. That's all there is to it, really.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:39, June 26, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the sentiment of the big yellow box, it is however, very yellow. On a related matter I believe that these and ideally all non-wiki related userboxes should go. Ideally we are here as wikipedians, identify ourselves through our actions and leave partisanship for sports and blogs. Unomi (talk) 19:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I take the view that this is not primarily about userboxes and whether they are a good or a bad thing. Even if Ezhiki's userbox is deeemed to be the greatest thing ever, it should still go pending a chance for people to discuss it. No innovation without consultation.

Ezhiki: You ask for alternative ideas for enforcement, but this presupposes that enforcement is appropriate, and it also presupposes a particular interpretation of what exactly is to be enforced. Neither of these things seems clear cut, even looking at the few comments above. These are just two of the reasons why wider discussion should have been solicited before creating the box. Having to gain people's consent might take time, but I think it is essential to good policing. --FormerIP (talk) 20:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Ezhiki, the userbox war was fought three years ago. It ended in a cease-fire when those opposed to userboxes learned that ridding Wikipedia of them would take too much time & effort to accomplish -- time most of them would rather spend on other things. Moreover, it's fair to say that a userbox collection can reveal one useful thing about the user: there appears to be a strong inverse correlation between the size of a Wikipedian's userbox collection & the number & quality of edits that Wikipedian has contributed. In short, if you want to do something that will truly improve Wikipedia, it won't be anything connected to userboxes. -- llywrch (talk) 06:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Any more views on this? What is the best way forward? --FormerIP (talk) 00:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The box looks like policy rather than an opinion. I'd say first of all, a less glaring yellow, and second, a slight rewording reflecting its actual status. I personally think there is no problem with a user saying they are associated with a fringe party so long as the userbox does not exhibit sentiments. i.e. a neutral "This user supports/sympathises with the Bulamakankan National Defence League", not a POV "This user thinks that Yoobalubian migrants are impure and should be exterminated on sight by any man with a gun." Orderinchaos 05:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC) P.S. The names are deliberately nonsensical as I wanted to get the point across without distraction.

If anyone could propose the new wording for the whole box, so that could be discussed, that'd be appreciated. As for the yellow, I have no problem with changing the color (I have the problem with not displaying a message :)).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:24, June 29, 2009 (UTC)

The warning box - if it is to remain at all (and I am not strictly convinced it should be) - needs to be toned down a lot so as to remain neutral. There is a somewhat dangerous precedent in our telling users which political views may or may not be "acceptable". For example, telling someone that a pro-facist opinion might be problematic is, while probably true, not exactly neutral. We should not be in the habit of judging political viewpoints one way or another. Instead, any such "warning" at the top of this page should be a neutral statement to the effect of "Placing a user box espousing any political affiliation or ideology on your user page, while not prohibited by any Wikipedia policy, is not recommended. This recommendation aims to remove one instance of disputes about settling a precise line of division between allowed and non-allowed content in userspaces. Although you are not required to follow this recommendation, if you do follow, you will be part of a large group of people that renounced posting similar content on their userpages for the sake of building a better environment. By refusing to post such userboxes you in no way renounce your right to hold an opinion." Shereth 15:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry to post here so late, I was busy in real life. Personally, I think there is nothing procedurally wrong in one editor (doesn't have to be admin!) crafting a common-sense recommendation box. In fact the only reason why Ezhiki and not I did that is that I was lazy. (I am not an admin, never applied to be one, because I am not a computer professional and I don't like having regular duties more than what I already have in real life.) Ezhiki has not drafted an official policy, but a common-sense recommendation, and to check his common sense he discussed it with me. Therefore I suggest we discuss here how to modify this box to be more useful. If all you are interested is following the "right procedure", then I respectfully ask to be shown when is the rule that forbids us doing good things without following "the procedure". Everything that is not explicitly forbidden (by WP or real life norms) is allowed.

On the other hand, the box can be improved, and why don't we all be bold and do changes. From the discussion above I don't see anyone contradicting anyone else content-wise. Why are you afraid to edit then? The bright yellow color can and should be changed. The wording can be changed also. I agree to take Shereth's edit as a basis for drafting a better text. I have two suggestions to improve Shreth's proposal:

• It doesn't have to be so long. The shorter the better. The more to the point the better.
• This box comes as an answer to a real problem, not out of the blue. Therefore, while I appreciate Shereth's very diplomatic formulation, I believe it is somewhat too diplomatic and not specific enough given the fact that this is not a US statement to Iran. If there is negative reaction to the box being too specific in mentioning pro-fascist, extreme left and extreme right, we can alter the text of the box, something noone can do to a diplomatic statement. "Extreme left" here is clearly a synonym to "hardcore communist", and "extreme right" is clearly a synonym to "hardcore fascist that do not like the term fascist". People that feel so strong about these ideas that they need to put them under their name or avatar, would not find a friendly environment when editing WP. (There is nothing wrong in that. WP is a mainstream encyclopedia, not a vehicle for promoting fringe or "alternative" theories. Unfortunately, in reality there is big pressure from that direction.) IMO, there is no point in lying to such people and telling them they are welcome to join but not welcome to edit. Dc76\^talk 18:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is not a place for promoting fringe theories (or fringe ideologies) - nor is it a place for promoting mainstream ideologies. Just because saying "I support Totalitarian Communism" is less popular than saying "I support the Republican Party" does not mean anything is wrong with it. If we are going to warn users against the pitfalls of endorsing political ideologies and platforms on their user page, the warning should apply to political ideologies equally across the board, and not just to those which we happen to find "extremist". Shereth 18:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• No, not warn users against the pitfalls of endorsing political ideologies, I would be totally against that. Please note the very last, underlined sentence of the box. It was only when Ezhiki agreed that it is essential that I started to support his suggestion to suggest removing political boxes. "We" want to somehow warn recommend users against the pitfalls of editing WP with a political ideology in mind. Political boxes would be absolutely ok if they would be on a forum's userpage. But WP userpages are userpages of editors. People write there what is relevant to them as editors. I do know that many people use their WP userpage as a sort of personal webpage (sometimes even uploading their CVs), and I would not support a drive to undo such things, because most such instances are totally innocent, like students that find it easier this way than to have to re-create the webpage at the start of every academic year. (They stop doing that when they grow a little older.) But let's be frank: such people almost never are promoting some ideology. My conclusion: it seems that I read the text of this box with one meaning, and you read it with another. Let's then edit it in such a way that there can be no confusion. Do not be hold back to edit this box.
• I disagree with you about promoting mainstream ideology. But that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It is the meaning one gives to these words. I believe that every time we talk about history, or social sciences in general, especially 20th century history, we do express a POV. IHMO it is impossible to talk about World War II without saying what was right and what was wrong. What we can do is make it very clear to the reader where the right/wrong assumption lies, so that the (intelligent) reader can trace the entire logical chain. Of course, I agree that we can write "World War II was a war faught by humans between 1939 and 1945 as a result of which 50 million people died." But that would be too dry, because we could not mention such obvious things as who and how started the war, who and where has committed war crimes, including holocaust. I am afraid that even the number of casualties and the start and end date could in some interpretations be regarded as non-neutral. Therefore I don't believe that neutrality is the key feature of WP, but information given in neutral tone, information that reflects the mainstream understanding of things, and that is presented clearly enough so that the reader knows what things exactly the mainstream interprets and how. However, I would like to repeat that this in my view has nothing to do with the box we are discussing. It is nothing more than my general regard at things. I am sincerely convinced I am right, but I am known to have committed errors of thought in the past (to put it diplomatically :-) ), so pls do not be held back to contradict me, I would think seriously about the meaning of everything you tell me, and do my best to understand what you mean.
• BTW, originally me and Ezhiki came at this issue because I had a userbox saying that I support independence of Chechnya, which is nothing ideological, nothing extreme. In our discussion I had to ponder about one thing: how important is this belief of mine to me as editor? did I ever made one edit based on that? I understood that it is illogical to put on the userpage anything political, even support for a mainstream party. Because it is one's human integrity, not political views that are important to being a good editor. Human integrity is important because we trust editors to copy correctly when they cite sources, when they summarize in good faith meanings of larger texts, even if one has a very specific opinion about the issue, when they create articles based on logical (as opposed to political) organization of the subject matter, etc. Dc76\^talk 20:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• I appreciate your well worded response. In order to keep things on track, I will point out that (unless we are trying to broaden the scope of this discussion) the original concern is about a recommendation with regards to the addition of certain politically-themed userboxes to one's user page. Without touching upon neutrality in general, user's editing habits, or any additional content that is allowed on user pages, it is my assertion that it is inappropriate for this "recommendation" box to single out certain types of politial viewpoints. At its root, the existing infobox is telling users to consider avoiding the use of userboxes that endorse certain political viewpoints. My point is to simply say that, in the interest of neutrality (which is, after all, one of the 5 Pillars of Wikipedia), any recommendation to avoid certain politically-themed userboxes should, in fact, be a recommendation to avoid all politically-themed userboxes. Even something as simple as "To promote harmonious editing among Wikipedia editors of differing backgrounds and opinions, please consider avoiding the use of the following politically themed user boxes" would be a vast improvement over what exists currently. Shereth 20:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd be partly satisfied if wording more like that proposed by Shareth can be achieved, which means two things:

• Not arbitrarily singling out particular points-of-view deemed extreme.
• Not making a "recommendation" where the provenance of the recommendation is unclear.

However, one thing that strikes me is the claim by Dc76 that what is not forbidden is allowed, and his request to be shown what the procedure is. There are two green-checked procedures which I think are relevant. Firstly WP:DISCUSS sets out that an infobox should be presented first as a draft for discussion, but this has been bypasssed in this case. Secondly, WP:Manual of Style (infoboxes) sets out that infoboxes should be created as templates and in a certain format. The effect of not doing this is that certain things cannot be done with the infobox (eg it cannot be transcluded and it cannot be AfD'd). Also, the policies are there because some feel that visual style is important, and this ought not to be disregarded.

You might think this is a bit lawyerly, but why should these rules be disregarded? If the job is worth doing, it is worth doing properly.

Lastly, there may be a legitimate case for dealing with Nazi and neo-Nazi userboxes differently, on the grounds that these userboxes are offensive on entirely non-political grounds (because they may cause general offence, contrary to WP:USERPAGE). I have great sympathy with this, but the whole category of political userboxes should not be dragged down on this account. --FormerIP (talk) 23:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Insult-only account: User:UKisTheBest

The account User:UKisTheBest appears to exist only to insult North Americans. See this diff to Talk:Metrication in the United States. --Jc3s5h (talk) 12:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Heh! Because the UK has done such a good job of metrication. I'm off for a pint of milk, making sure I drive no faster than 70 miles per hour. Inappropriate username, too. Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 12:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The user also does not support national constitutions. He doesn't seem to realise he's already got one, the fact it isn't written down doesn't make it any less real :D Orderinchaos 07:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Not forgetting the Human Rights Act 1998. – ukexpat (talk) 19:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

As they've only posted it twice I've reminded them instead that talk pages are for discussing changes to the article, not offering random opinions on the article topic. If they persist, you might post a vandalism report to WP:AIV. The username doesn't bother me that much, but WP:UAA is a good place to go if you would like this looked at. Euryalus (talk) 12:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

A look at his brand-new user page may also prove instructive. --Calton | Talk 17:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the offending portion of his userpage and left a comment on his talk. //roux   20:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Miesianiacal

Many of you will remember the contretemps I had with User:G2bambino now known as User:Miesianiacal. Unfortunately it seems to be slowly brewing again.

Over the past little while I've been looking at articles I have contributed significantly to, with the aim of getting them bumped up a level or two in their assessment rating. One of these is Arms of Canada, which per the history he has never edited, though he says he did in 2005-2008. He is now making edits (very, very poorly sourced edits in favour of his usual pro-monarchist POV, but that is relatively easily dealt with) to the article, and based on a discussion just starting there I can see his usual pattern starting again.

Without creating a whole lot of drama, it is worth noting that under his previous username, Miesianiacal was blocked for three weeks for harassing and wikistalking me. The stress he caused was severe enough that I left all articles relating to Canadian and British monarchy--the very reason I finally created a login in the first place--in order to avoid his behaviour. But I predicted that he would slowly start coming to the articles I was working on. A couple of days ago he showed up at the talkpage of an article he has edited twice[12][13], (under yet another previous username),whose tpage he had touched once in 2006, and once in September 2008 in order to leave a comment needling me further about a dispute we were having at the time.

Neither of these two articles have been anything like a focus of interest for Miesianiacal. For me, I got Arms of Canada back to GA status, and assisted User:Ecjmartin in getting Coronation to GA status; Ecjmartin, User:Surtsicna and I are currently working on improving the latter article even further, while Arms of Canada and another article are just beginning the peer review process.

I asked politely here if, given the amount of stress he has caused me in the past, he could stay away from the article. His response has been, minus a lot of verbiage, 'no', with an accusation of article ownership. I asked for clarification three hours ago so as to be crystal clear. He edited continuously for an hour afterwars, so I can only assume he has seen the message.

I would like to ask for an uninvolved admin to please request that he stay away from me rather more forcefully. I have poured a lot of hard work into these articles and do not want to have to leave them, whereas for him not to edit them is hardly an issue, given how little he has contributed. I have assiduously avoided him for months and wish to keep doing so without having to walk away from something I have worked on. → ROUX ₪ 22:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the difficulty but on this occasion he doesn't appear to have broken any policies or guidelines. Try to ignore his needling, and amend poorly sourced contributions appropriately and sensitively. DrKiernan (talk) 09:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem is knowing his pattern of behaviour, particularly his pattern of behaviour towards me, and the amount of stress it causes me. I cannot work on this article knowing that he is going to show up again. Given his history of behaviour towards me I do not think it is inappropriate to request that he stay away from the articles in question. The bad-faith/unsubstantiated accusation of ownership is also concerning. → ROUX ₪ 17:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Without knowing anything of the history behind this (sorry), it appears indeed inappropriate to request that he stay away from the articles that you want to work on. Such a request does come close to an assertion of ownership, and our policy WP:OWN is rather clear in that regard. As long he does not violate any norms of conduct - and I can find no fault in his replies to you that you link to - I see no grounds to impose any restrictions here. On the other hand, if there were concrete evidence of wikistalking, that would be sanctionable, but with blocks rather than article bans.  Sandstein  19:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Please familiarise yourself with the history then, as it will explain the problem. For the quick version, please see [his block log (three weeks by Fut.Perf for harassing me, RFC/U on his behaviour (and in the purposes of full disclosure the retaliatory one he filed on me here), and the last AN thread regarding him ane me here; note please that I had to leave all monarchy-related articles due to his behaviour; other users (note Franamax' comment at the last link, "My interactions with G2b on this wiki have been limited - in large degree, because one of my goals has been to avoid interactions with G2b [Miesianiacal now] on this wiki.") have had markedly similar experiences with him. I don't wish to turn this into another RFC/U on him; I just want him to leave me alone to edit in peace. He drove me away from an enormous swath of articles, and I am just asking him to leave me alone where I edit now. → ROUX ₪ 19:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

And indeed I did predict that he would start doing this (showing up at articles he has never or barely ever touched that I edit; relevant quote: "I can't edit the one article area I have left--heraldry, specifically Canadian--in peace, because I know sooner or later he's going to set his sights on it." That had been sent in a private email to Mayalld as noted, while I had briefly left the entire project due to a complete lack of interest in anyone dealing with his chronic tendentious editing. It has even been pointed out to me via email recently (~4 weeks or so) that he is doing on at least another page exactly what he pulled with me and countless other users; wikilawyering, refusing to provide sources when asked directly, arguing around the issue, misrepresenting sources, using biased sources to support his POV, etc etc. Given that so many months have passed since I started avoiding him and he is still behaving in exactly the same manner, I cannot face trying to get a couple of articles to FA status knowing that he is incredibly likely to come and do the same thing, as indeed he has already started doing at Talk:Arms of Canada#In Right of Canada. All of this is why I am asking for him to be explicitly required to stay away from me. In case there is any concern, I will happily continue staying the hell away from him, away from articles regarding the British and Canadian monarchies (apart from Coronation, which only tangentially touches on the subject and is mentioned in my initial complaint above), and will in short not touch any articles he regularly edits or could be presumed to edit on a regular basis (Canadian/British monarchy, Governors and Lieutenants-general, and so on) even if he has not yet edited them. → ROUX ₪ 20:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

←I have been asked to comment here by Roux as I am very aware of the history here. After reading over the thread I feel that I must echo the majority of the statements made by others above. Those being, I have yet to see any policy violations on Miesianiacal's part, and simply editing the same article as another person whom he has had previous issues with is not against the rules. That said, I can see where Roux is coming from. After almost a year of blocks, RFC/Us, AN/I threads, and various probation requirements the likely hood that both Roux and Miesianiacal will interact in a positive manner is unlikely (though, I note there have yet to be any large conflicts for close to a year). Roux, I think the answer is this: There is little that can be done to stop Miesianiacal from editing the same articles that you do (though I will note it would be wise for him to try and do so), and I think you should give this a try. So far he has not made any disruptive edits, something that you should welcome and until he does you should try and edit in "harmony" (wow, that sounds cheesy) with him. If there becomes an issue, feel free to contact me or take the situation back here. And Miesianiacal, please keep doing what you have been doing. None of us want to go through "that" again. Tiptoety ^talk 02:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe you or anyone else who has commented here understands the sheer amount of stress he has caused me and continues to cause by showing up. So, alright, based on feedback here and a couple via email, it seems that nobody cares that this is a problem. Someone else can take those articles to FA status. Tiptoety, 'that' is also happening again, here, amongst other related places. → ROUX ₪ 04:44, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Roux, please don't say that. I think I can understand and sympathize with the amount of stress working with Miesianiacal gives you...but I guess I am at odds as to what to do about it. I can not just tell him to stop editing any article you have touched, nor can I block him for making you stressed out. I guess I should ask, what would you like to see happen here? As for "that", can you link me to a specific thread? Tiptoety ^talk 05:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't asking for any article I've touched, just a specific topic area that he has hitherto showed little to no interest in, so it wouldn't be much of a hardship for him. As it is, nothing can/will be done so I have removed the articles from my watchlist. As for 'that', start here and keep going into the vote section below. His behaviour there--especially refusing to provide any sources--is precisely the same as that here and here, eight months ago, and God knows how many before that. Nothing about his behaviour has changed, which is why I need him to either be required to leave me alone (declined), or have to leave the articles, as I have done, in order to avoid getting sucked into the same mess all over again. I accept that no administrators will do anything about this, so I have done so myself. → ROUX ₪ 05:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Roux, I believe I know what you are feeling. Despite how I might sometimes come over I also feel stress when other editors revert my work for reasons I believe are unfair. I suspect I'm not the only one active on Wikipedia who does. My reaction, if the exchange is too stressful, is to simply move on to another article: Wikipedia has almost 3 million of them, almost all of which are in need of some attention. If this person follows you there, jump to another article once or twice more; if he follows, then you have him for Wikistalking; if not, then you are rid of him, & after a few months' time return to the original article & resume your work. -- llywrch (talk) 19:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

copyright problem

Resolved

Excuse me for bringing this here; I'm not sure of the right place to take it. I marked Doctors of Deception as a "suspected copyvio" even though it was a blatant copyvio, because it was lifted from two web pages and the db-copyvio template only seems to work for material taken from a single site. The author of the article agreed that deletion is the correct thing to do, but nothing has happened. At this point I'm lost in the bureaucracy and don't know what the next step is. Looie496 (talk) 03:06, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. Marking it as a speedy under G12 would have been fine, as would marking it as a G7 once the author agreed that it should be deleted. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 03:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to note that with {{copyvio}}, nothing is supposed to happen for 7+1 days. The delay is to permit time for verification of permission or rewriting of the article in temporary space. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Geekyboy87 interference with AfD

Normally I'd just drop a note to the editors talk page myself, but in theis case, I think an admin might be better. User:Geekyboy87 authored the article List of Parental Advisory albums. The article is being discussed in AfD. Geekyboy87 went into the discussion and blanked the entire discussion at WP:Articles for deletion/List of Parental Advisory albums. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I reverted the blanking and dropped a quick note on the user's talk page. Also, editors are just as welcome as admins to post notices and warnings on other user's talk pages. :) Icestorm815 • Talk 14:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

kgb_

It's come to my attention that kgb_, Cha Cha (search engine), and possibly other companies are directly copying Wikipedia's articles in their answers. Attribution is only given on their sites, and only if a user logs in to view their previous answers. No attribution is given in the answers themselves, and no links are given to the GFDL. Can a copyright aficionado comment on this? I can send off a letter to them if required. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 15:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Is it a live mirror? They go to m:live mirrors.

BTW, Wikipedia is a CC-BY-SA site now :) Stifle (talk) 15:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not a live mirror. They take the relevant sentence from our article - for example "Baghdad is the largest city and capital of Iraq" - and copy and paste it into an answer. Then they hit send. Take, for example, this question - the source is given as www.serendipity.li/iraqwar.htm, when in reality the answer is a direct copy of part of the opening paragraph of Iraq War - "...Gulf War, the Occupation of Iraq, or Operation Iraqi Freedom, is an ongoing military campaign which began on March 20, 2003 with the invasion of Iraq ...". There are hundreds more examples of unsourced 'lifting'. This seems to me to be a problem - is it? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 16:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, unattributed mirroring of WP content is quite a big problem (see WP:MIRROR); people don't seem to realise that attribution is necessary. If you fancy sending them a not unfriendly reminder to link to the WP article when reusing the content, they may oblige. If they don't, there is the route of DMCA takedown notices if you are the one whose rights are being infringed, but the only route after that is for a contributor to take actual legal action. – Toon 16:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Letter sent:

“ Dear ChaCha Search:

I am pleased to see that your service uses content from Wikipedia (<http://en.wikipedia.org/>), the free encyclopedia. This is the sort of reuse that those who contribute to Wikipedia, as I do, wish to promote.

However, you must follow the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CC-BY-SA), which governs all Wikipedia text. Only the CC-BY-SA is legally binding. However, we do make certain recommendations about how to comply. First, I would like to point out that when you use content from Wikipedia you should include a link back to the source Wikipedia article as is suggested on Wikipedia’s copyrights page, which is located at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights>. Additionally, you should also include a CC-BY-SA notice. One way of doing this is to add the text "This article is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License, which means that you can copy and modify it as long as the entire work (including additions) remains under this license", and provide a link to a copy of the CC-BY-SA. Text such as "This page contains text from Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia" is a good way to acknowledge the general source of the text.

Specifically, your page <http://www.chacha.com/question/why-%26-what-was-the-war-in-iraq> uses content from <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War>. Since it appears without linking the original article or specifically attributing the authors, or linking to the text of the CC-BY-SA under which the contributions are released, the existence of this page violates copyright.

Please add the required links and acknowledgments to all parts of your site that use Wikipedia content promptly, and be sure to correctly attribute resued content in future. Thank you.

Sincerely,

”

I also spellchecked it, so ignore the errors. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 18:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Easy image history merge help needed

Resolved

File:TransMarchlogo.png was replaced with File:Trans March logo.svg. I think it should have been replaced on that page then renamed but that ship has sailed. Can someone please do histmerge and delete the old version? -- Banjeboi 18:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Images cannot be moved at this time. Maybe in another 6 months. MBisanz ^talk 18:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Gotcha, can you help with the history merge or is that un-do-able as well? -- Banjeboi 19:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Also un-doable. Sorry. MBisanz ^talk 19:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! -- Banjeboi 20:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Chuck Marean

was ==User:Who then was a gentleman?==

User:Who then was a gentleman? left two uncivil comment on my talk page (here). It was about this edit. He seems to be another trying to start an argument on my talk page. Doing so is edit waring in my opinion as well as uncivil. I am therefore requesting that he be banned. --Chuck Marean 20:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

While I wouldn't have characterized your POV pushing [14] as "vandalism", I don't see anything actionable ^{against Who then...?} here. –xeno^talk 20:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC) ^{superscript text added at 20:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)}

Ridiculous. --208.54.7.185 (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Chuck Marean parole(s)

Chuck Marean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The only thing actionable here is Chuck's editing. Vandalism is certainly an appropriate word for Chuck's edit there. And it's the latest in a (very, very) long line of such edits. I think some kind of parole is in order. Raul654 (talk) 20:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd characterise it as nonsense, certainly. It's rather blatant POV-pushing, even if it is unintentional. You need to be careful with your edits, ones like this don't help - I'd support some sort of supervised editing? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Chuck has a problem with the Current Events portal. May I suggest a topic ban? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That would be a good start, but I think the problem is deeper than that. He seems to go from one article to the next making disruptive edits. His editing on TANSTAAFL is a case-in-point. Raul654 (talk) 20:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

This is the fourth? Fifth? I dunno, lost count, thread about Chuck Marean in the past couple of months. I suggest mentoring if anyone is willing to come forward. If not, I suggest Chuck be asked to explain why in the community's view his ongoing edits to Current Events (and elsewhere) is problematic and why he will stop doing such things. In the absence of both of the above, I think it is time to invite him to enjoy the world beyond Wikipedia unless/until either of the above happen. → ROUX ₪ 21:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

My edit was good. --Chuck Marean 21:06, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

No it wasn't. Nothing about what Madoff did was good faith, as proved by a duly constituted court of law. It was part and parcel of your quixotic crusade to sanitise bad news from the Current Events portal.→ ROUX ₪ 21:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to pile on to Roux's comment - Madoff pled guilty and admitted he broke the law. Calling his actions "good faith" isn't inaccurate - it's completely, utterly divorced from reality, and anyone doing so is a vandal by any objective measure. Raul654 (talk) 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

He went bankrupt. Why would he plead guilty to something?--Chuck Marean 21:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Uhhh.. because his bankruptcy was directly caused by his monumental fraud? → ROUX ₪ 21:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh for the love of god. He wasn't charged with going bankrupt -- he was charged with securities fraud, and pled guilty to fraud. Why? Because when you tell someone you are running a hedge fund and, instead of buying stock, you use the proceeds to pay off previous investors, you are not actually running a hedge fund -- you are running a ponzi scheme. (1) Running a ponzi scheme is illegal; (2) lying to the investors about it is also illegal. Perhaps you shouldn't be editing articles when you don't have any idea of what you are talking about? This seems to be your signature with *every* article you edit. Raul654 (talk) 21:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia.--Chuck Marean 21:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Which means what exactly? → ROUX ₪ 21:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Read the f'in article --208.54.7.185 (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Would you be so kind as to a) login with your username, b) be slightly less rude? One would imagine that doing a) will cause b). → ROUX ₪ 21:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the anon's comment was a reply to Chuck's comment, not mine. Raul654 (talk) 21:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Either way... → ROUX ₪ 21:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Which sort of means I think saying he was found guilty of investment fraud sounds biased because he may not have known his bonds needed to be secured by property or thought it was just an opinion. He didn’t go underground with the money. From what I heard on the TV months ago, he simply went bankrupt and got bad press about it. -- Chuck Marean 21:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

(reset indent) I am quite literally flabbergasted, and possibly entirely gobsmacked, that you could even pretend in good faith that the statement you just made is in any way accurate or supported by reality. → ROUX ₪ 22:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

And following on from Short Brigade's diff below ("He was selling bonds and paying them back with more bonds. There was nothing criminal about that. It may have been somewhat incompetant but it was not criminal."), you very clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. That isn't incompetence, it is the very definition of a Ponzi scheme. Which is, by the way, criminal. Good god man. → ROUX ₪ 22:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Is anyone willing to mentor Chuck? (I'll assume if I don't get any affirmative responses here that the answer is no) Raul654 (talk) 21:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the relevant questions to this discussion are:

• (1) Does Chuck do any useful editing at all?
• (2A) In light of his long history and many failed attempts to "fix" his editing can Chuck be coached to improve? (2B) Is it worth the effort?

I'm interested to hear some opinions from other people who have previously dealt with him. Raul654 (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Just based on what I've seen here... let anyone mentor him if they want, but he should be blocked while this is going on. Then later, if the mentor wants to assert that he can edit usefully, an unblock could be discussed. I see no reason to continue exposing the project to this kind of nonsense in the meantime. Friday (talk) 21:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Good call. He can propose edits on his tpage, $Mentor can approve or not. When he's shown a pattern (say, a month and 100 edits?) of improvement and understanding how Wikipedia works, unblock. → ROUX ₪ 21:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. I can't believe some of those diffs! This one is almost surreal. Whether he is deliberately distorting the facts, or is somehow incapable of understanding simple declarative sentences in news reports, the result is the same. Until he can show that he is capable of editing to produce constructive results he needs to be reined in. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

My edit was not nonsense. I thought saying he was found guilty sounded biased. If it had said he was appealing that would have been better. As it was, it ignored that he had a business that went bankrupt, and his investors were simply mad and charging him with fraud. I was also pointing out that his business did not recieve a bailout, which also is not nonsense. Maybe I could have mentioned my wording of the blurb on the talk page before doing the edit, but there is no rule that says to that I know of. I think the rule is to boldly do the edit you think with improve the article. --Chuck Marean 22:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

How is reporting a widely-available proven fact biased? The man is a criminal. He engaged, knowingly, in a criminal enterprise. He confessed to knowingly engaging in a criminal enterprise. He was convicted of same. This has nothing to do with the investors being 'simply mad and charging him with fraud'. As for his business not receiving a bailout, bailouts were reserved for businesses, and not criminal enterprises, not to put too fine a point on it, so saying that is like saying I haven't received a child tax credit because I don't have children. → ROUX ₪ 22:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Can I join this pile-on? There no evidence that Madoff's problems are due to bad business decisions; he engaged in criminal activity. He confessed to it. Forensic accountants have verified that he did it. A legal court has found him guilty & threw the book at him for it. I'd also like to point out that Chuck Marean has been twice blocked for a month for disruptive behavior. Unless he can produce a verifiable expert opinion to support this bizarre thesis, I move for another ban. -- llywrch (talk) 22:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not getting angry now. --Chuck Marean 22:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm tentatively joining in to say that, Chuck, you sound like you're just making excuses, man. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

My Madoff edit was reverted. I left it that way. I think calling my edit nonsense was uncivil because obviously, 150 years for going out of business seems a bid much, and my edit pointed out maybe his business or investors could receive a bailout. I did not put my edit back, you will notice. I complained about it being called nonsense.-- Chuck Marean 22:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It was nonsense because it had no basis in reality. He was not given 150 years for 'going out of business'. He was given 150 years for knowingly committing fraud. What part of that, precisely, is unclear? → ROUX ₪ 22:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• Revising my above opinion to just block permanently now until Chuck can demonstrate he is conversant with reality as the rest of us see it. → ROUX ₪ 22:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Very funny.--Chuck Marean 23:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Not a joke. Are you capable of providing, say, two reliable sources that support your contentions? I know you aren't, but I'll give you a fighting chance to do so. Failing that, no, you are not operating in a way that is congruent with observed reality viz. Madoff is a criminal who committed fraud and confessed to it, not that he made a couple of oopsie business decisions.→ ROUX ₪ 23:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not a joke, Chuck. I know I'm not an admin but I support this. Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I read this NY Times article on Madoff. It does sound biased, which is what I was trying to avoid here. At least the blurb on Current events only says "investment fraud." That is less biased than calling it a Ponzy "Scheme." What he was doing is sort of what I think Reagan thought deficit spending was, although government bonds are actually backed by coining money.--Chuck Marean 23:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You mean you really can't see the headline in the linked article which says Madoff Is Sentenced to 150 Years for Ponzi Scheme? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I suspect Chuck Marean doesn't realise that reporting on actual reality isn't a 'bias'. → ROUX ₪ 23:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I just mean I don't feel my edit should have been called nonsense or vandalism, since it was neither of those. I thought 150 years for paying old bonds with new -- something anyone might do -- was an outrage, and I was therefore trying to improve the Current events headline on the subject. The part that says his business did not recieve a government bailout is common knowledge, as is that he went bankrupt. I take back my request for banning you, however I seriously didn't like it when my talk page was being used for arguments and insulting me and I don't want that happening again. --Chuck Marean 23:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd support a block, basically for that reason, if less crudely put. Having dealt with Chuck on and off across his time here, devoting to him as much time as any editor save probably ZimZalaBim, whose patience in attempting to reconcile Chuck’s idiosyncrasies with our policies and practices is to be commended, I can say with a great deal of confidence that he acts in good faith (even re Madoff, where his edits, I trust, stem from a factual misunderstanding and a general inability to communicate clearly); I do not doubt that he intends in every edit to improve the project. Notwithstanding that, he regularly obliges other editors to devote time and energy to reverting his edits, which tend to compromise quality, and to explaining to him why his editing is disruptive, and I am at last convinced that he is constitutionally incompatible with Wikipedia. I feel a bit bad when we block an editor who means well and tries to address concerns that are raised about his/her work, but the project must be our primary concern, and it is unquestionable that the net effect on it of Chuck’s presence is negative. Joe (talk) 23:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think my net effect is positive.--Chuck Marean 00:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you're trying to be positive, but I'm afraid I don't think your edits come across positively in the end. I agree that you should only nominate something when you at least have some extent of knowledge in it, unlike when you clogged a very difficult, news-filled day with the discovery of the European Union. Therequiembellishere (talk) 00:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

the existance of the European Union is news in the U.S. and perhaps elsewhere. I, uh... I mean, ah... gee, I don't know what to say. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Had a little encounter with Chuck the other day at finance. While I think the end result was positive (the lead became less about security markets), he seems unapologetic about his vandal edits like the one about Madoff, and banning/blocking seems like the only answer. II | (t - c) 00:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You just called it a vandal edit. Words are powerful. None of my edits are vandal edits. Do you consider it OK for you to talk that way? --Chuck Marean 00:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Haven't looked at the various pages and edits that have been mentioned, but would suggest that the allegation that this user "clogged" anything or made an inappropriate claim about the "discovery of the EU" looks a bit unfair. He suggested a news story that was probably bound to be covered anyway (where's the crime in that?) and made a couple of POV asides on a talk page. I'm fairly sure no-one had to cover their children's eyes.--FormerIP (talk) 00:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

A great deal of time was spent explaining the European Union instead of covering the death of the longest-ruling non-monarch, two major art-related functions, a major LGBT event, two general elections, a referendum, the European election itself, on top of a major upcoming sports event and unfinished recent events like terrorist attacks, the wind turbine and the Irish and British local elections (along with Brown's ten cabinet resignations) were completely forgotten. It was quite disruptive. Therequiembellishere (talk) 01:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not seeing this enormous waste of time in the talk page, though. More keystrokes seem to have been spent on Shanghai's gay pride event (jusifiably, perhaps), and Chuck doesn't seem to have been the biggest talker. His take on how big a story the EU elections were may have been disputable, but that is what the talk page is for. It's hard for me to see how this particular example can be seen as noteworthy disruption. --FormerIP (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Really? Have you looked at finance and the surrounding talk pages? Of course, we could all debate the idea of reducing every article to the lowest common denominator, but the entire place would be reduced to pablum, so why should we? I'll assume good faith, and conclude that the user in question is of a certain age prone to such disruption, and destined to eventually either earn attention on the merits or find someplace else to play. Steveozone (talk) 05:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

He's fifty. Therequiembellishere (talk) 06:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I've heard in the news recently that some of that age, and those around them, maintain a childlike attitude well beyond their years, at great pain to others. Steveozone (talk) 07:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That's probably going a bit far. → ROUX ₪ 07:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

So I don't need to start being a grownup now that I've passed the big five-oh? Goody, cause I'm still having serious trouble dealing with my age. (And I can't say that I edit Wikipedia because of a mid-life crisis because I've been doing it far to long to make that sound plausible, even to me.) -- llywrch (talk) 17:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, looking at some of the other edits, I agree there is an issue, and the finance edits alone merit it being brought here. But I would still say that some of the edits cited are IMO below the threshold where they can be called a major problem. ie he is maybe not as prolific as some comments above imply. --FormerIP (talk) 14:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Non-participatory edit: As only one comment of this lengthy discussion concerns User:Who then was a gentleman?, I altered the name of the discussion to User:Chuck Marean. I am otherwise making no content judgement. Manning (talk) 01:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Chuck Marean parole suggestions

I think the following restrictions are a good starting point for dealing with Chuck's editing:

1. Chuck Marean is prohibited from editing all Wikipedia articles. He may make suggestions on the talk pages. If other people find his suggestions useful, they may implement them at their prerogative; if they do not find them useful, they may ignore them at their prerogative.
2. Chuck Marean is prohibited from editing all current events articles (both the articles and their talk pages) and news-related Wikipedia pages (WP:ITN, the current events portal, etc including their talk pages)
3. Chuck Marean is prohibited from offering counterfactual suggestions. His editorial suggestions must accurately reflect the reality in which we live, and not waste the time of the people who read his suggestions.
4. Violation of any of the above is blockable by any admin for any period of time that admin believes is warranted. Admins enforcing these restrictions may impose further restrictions as the need arises.

Did I miss anything? Raul654 (talk) 03:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Approve. Based from what I've read so far, Chuckie's actions are detrimental to the article and to Wikipedia as a whole. his remarks are just a way of trying to smart-ass his way out of accountability. --Eaglestorm (talk) 04:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable enough to me. --BorgQueen (talk) 04:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Aye - though I'd add that he must provide valid reliable sources for his suggestions, to save time regarding #3. → ROUX ₪ 04:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Raul, you are too kind to this person. After putting this matter to one side for a few hours then returning to this thread, I still think he ought to be indefinitely blocked, if not banned. Not only for insisting on contributing his unsupported & bizarre allegations, but for requiring so many Wikipedians to waste their time on this matter -- not only in this thread, but in the article space. Maybe his edits technically aren't vandalism, but they are nonsensical -- which fits the definition of vandalizing articles. (And as a postscript, I first learned about the E.U. back in school, about the time Tricky Dick was president. -- llywrch (talk) 05:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support This is my dealbreaker. II | (t - c) 06:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
• I'm fine with the idea of an indef block/ban, to be honest. The problem here is that, while good faith, Chuck's edits are so useless and detached from reality that people spend a lot of time clearing up after him and then explaining in great detail what the problems are. Any solution we come up with here must be designed to correct this, and prevent people wasting their time on him when they could be doing more productive things. Having people supervising his edits does not do that. In addition, what we've basically done with the above suggestion is say that he can't edit the mainspace until his worldview lines up with reality. I can't see that happening, which begs the question - why is he here? Why do we tolerate him? He can't edit the mainspace, he can only make suggestions. His suggestions so far have been so out-of-touch and detached from the real world that nobody with the common sense of a garden gnome would touch them, so why bother? Why not just ban him outright, then we can get back to actually editing instead of supervising a user who can't contribute properly (or arguably, at all). Ironholds (talk) 07:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

  Any solution we come up with here must be designed to correct this, and prevent people wasting their time on him when they could be doing more productive things. - I agree. That's why, under the above sanctions, he must offer useful edits that don't waste peoples' time (#3). If he does not, he can be blocked for it (#4). Either he starts being useful or he is not going to be allowed to edit around here. Raul654 (talk) 14:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support - I think a community ban is in order. As Joe noted above, I have been a de facto mentor for Chuck for the past 3+ years, following nearly every edit he has made. I noticed early on that he almost always edits in good faith, but also is almost always reverted (I'd guess that over 80% of his edits are reverted, perhaps more). Chuck has shown a history of stubbornness, which sometimes reaches the bar of POV-pushing. He also has shown a clear lack of understanding of multiple concepts, both simple and complex, which leads me to believe that his abilities might be less than average in this regard. I have gone out of my way over the years to be kind, assume good faith, and try to steer him to be productive. These efforts have largely failed, for each time Chuck finds a new topic or new part of the project to participate in, he ends up being disruptive. My frustrations have risen in recent months, and Chuck's continued non-constructive/disruptive editing was a contributing factor to my overall frustration with the project, leading to my sudden retirement only a few weeks ago. I support an indef block/ban, as I simply don't see how Chuck can be a productive participant in this project, and his continued editing has demanded constant supervision, revision, and "banging-head-against-the-wall" discussion by me and numerous other editors. This has gone on long enough. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 14:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

If people think a community ban is in order, I'm fine with that. Raul654 (talk) 14:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support the above restrictions as a bare minimum, my first choice being an indefinite block (or ban) on the grounds of good faith disruption. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
• I endorse SheffieldSteel's statement. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 23:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support - Ive seen some of his edits over the last couple of months and he adds stupid comments like the discovery of the EU and Tropical Cyclones do not exist thus i think something needs to happen to him.Jason Rees (talk) 03:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support - as second choice. Honestly, I figure the indef is inevitable with the restrictions, but it is giving him one chance to redeem himself. I note with some amusement that he still hasn't provided sources for Madoff. → ROUX ₪ 03:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support - Chuck edits in good faith, but seems to have a simplistic view on the world sometimes. Unfortunately he ends up editing in articles and areas that he clearly knows nothing about, and refuses to take others comments seriously. His edits to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, and on Finance alone show that he isn't conversant with the topics involved and is not willing to listen to others. Unfortunately he comes in, is bold, and reworks things considerably from what they are based on very limited, simplistic and often just plain wrong understandings. Canterbury Tail talk 13:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Block 95.96.94.126 please

To avoid any appearence of involvement, can someone block 95.96.94.126 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) for repeatedly adding unsourced information in List of Heroes episodes? The IP has been duely warned, but that seems to fall on deaf ears, as he continues after a level 4 warning. — Edokter • Talk • 20:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Bot with no emergency shutdown button

Unresolved

Further discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Malfunctioning bot

Chrisbot does not have an emergency shutdown button. This bot is not functioning correctly, and is mucking up lots of railway diagrams. Mjroots (talk) 20:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The emergency shut down is just a cute way of accessing the block form. Can you give me an example of the wrongdoing? Also, it doesn't appear to be running. AWB bots can be stopped just by writing to their talk page. –xeno^talk 21:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

See this sandbox for a number of diagrams with incorrect continuation arrows. Mjroots (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Damnit Jim, I'm an administrator, not a trainspotter! –xeno^talk 21:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Lol, but you did ask for examples of what is going on. The bot is leaving these incorrect arrows showing for hours yet claiming to be doing so "temporarily". If the edit was completed in, say 5-10 minutes it could be lived with. But IMHO leaving diagrams with incorrect arrows for hours on end is not acceptable. Mjroots (talk) 21:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I left a note on the bots page pointing here... am also hoping a trainspotting admin will come along. –xeno^talk 21:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Though, the problem seems to be that the bot creates inaccuracies for a brief period of time in order to swap some things that necessarily need to be swapped? A necessary detriment perhaps? –xeno^talk 21:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I've raised this at WP:UKRAIL. The problem is that this bot is that it is neither "necessary" nor helpful. The icons in question worked perfectly well before and this bot seems to have been agreed with minimal discussion despite its wide-ranging effects for templates. Lamberhurst (talk) 21:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) See my comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Malfunctioning bot. —  Tivedshambo  (t/c) (a train-spotting admin!) 21:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It's ChrisDHDR, the bot's owner. I would just like to say that there is a shutdown button: at the bottom of the template on the bot's page there is "Administrators: if this bot continues causing harm after receiving a message, please block it or remove from the approved accounts." You can also cause it to stop by writing on it's talk page which already happened 3 times yesterday. That gives three blocking options. Now about the point of this bot and what it does: when the CONT series of icons were made they were uploaded with names that didn't follow the naming conventions. In an agreement here it was decided that they would need to be changed to follow the naming conventions like all other icons. I then asked for approval here and started correcting the icons. Changing "u" and "d" to "g" and "f" is easy enough but swapping "l" and "r" is a bit trickier. To do this the bot changes "l" to "CHRISBOT", now that "l" is free it changes "r" to "l", and now that "r" is free it changes "CHRISBOT" to "r". Unfortunately this requires that there is a temporary blank square or a wrong facing arrow but this only lasts the time it takes for the cache to be updated and I really don't think that it blocks the overall understanding of the template. I had started by correcting the less used icons, giving me a chance to try it out with minimal impact. However now I am doing the more used ones it is getting a greater bit of attention.

Now that I have seen all these problems I gave this bot a good think, I can propose three possible solutions:

1. Either I can stop it strait away and leave the icons half done
2. Or I can continue with the same method
3. Or I can do it in another way:
   1. "u" and "d" will be changed to "g" and "f" (no problems)
   2. the "l" and "r" swapping will use another method:
      1. tCONTl will be uploaded to CHRISBOT. When the cache is updated,
      2. tCONTl will be replaced by CHRISBOT.
      3. tCONTl will be overwritten with tCONTr. When the cache is updated,
      4. tCONTr will be replaced by tCONTl.
      5. tCONTr will be overwritten with CHRISBOT (originally tCONTl). When the cache is updated,
      6. CHRISBOT will be replaced by tCONTr
      7. do the same for CONTl and CONTr
      8. during the change {{User:Chrisbot/Work status}} will inform you of the right icon name to use (plus you can place the template at "strategic" pages: WP:RDT, WP:UKRAIL, etc)

This however is a very long process as the cache can (in my experience) take a week to update, but I think it is a better method. It would also be better since I share my computer with my family and the old method forced that everything be done in one go, making my family get annoyed at me for forcing them to have the bot slow down the computer by running in the background. This method is in short, independent stages, so not-so-annoying, and since I'll soon be going on holiday, can be paused at any moment. Thanking you for your patience, ChrisDHDR 07:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

As observed, this bot does not just change these things over quickly e.g. in 5 or 10 minutes, which I think was what the administrators/moderators were expecting when they approved its use, so diaggrams are wrong fOURS or DAYS, for what many see as a totally unnecessary change. Heaven help Chris when he actually changes the main icons rather than the minor, less-used ones. In my opinion it would have been better to change the icons FIRST, so that EVERYTHING was OBVIOUSLY wrong. To start changing small bits of text can only leave one puzzled as to what is going on, one undoes or changes it back, and then it's STILL going to be wrong once the change is finished. Now I've just made a new article conforming to the new conventions (Template:Ipswich to Ely RDT). It would not at all surprise me if the bot comes along and then reverses the arrows AGAIN so that they will all then be wrong. In short, this is a bad solution to a non-problem. SimonTrew (talk) 10:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

small change in protected page

please change in Template:pp-meta below text:

{{mbox

to:

{{<noinclude>a</noinclude>mbox

after change this template will similar to other protect template--Amir (talk) 21:06, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Stuff like this should be proposed on the talk page using the {{editprotected}} template. –xeno^talk 21:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It's also a good idea to test code like this in a sandbox, esp. for highly-used templates. <noinclude/> isn't valid code. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

And there's the fact that the template is functioning perfectly correctly in displaying the ombox style in template space, and that no good reason to change it seems to have been presented. Happy‑melon 21:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Changed,this is a very minor edit--Amir (talk) 21:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

In conclusion:  Not done. — Edokter • Talk • 21:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

All of template in Template:Protection_templates shows with article demospace--Amir (talk) 21:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't actually work out quickly why that is; I don't think it's expected behaviour. Certainly I'm not convinced that it is desirable. Happy‑melon 22:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Kürfurst reported by User:Dapi89

- Edit warring and violation of 3RR. He's an edit war vet' and he's deleting sourced material and edit warring on a number of pages. He's been blocked 8 or 9 times for it, bu he continues. - - 1 [15] - 2 [16] - 3 [17] - 4 [18] - - Dapi89 (talk) 21:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Please take this to WP:AN3 Triplestop x3 01:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Editors.

Hello,

There appears to be a disruption between editors. A discussion can be found here. I am not involved with the dispute, and am not sure of all the details. It appears to be a possible COI and series of Personal attacks. Editors have turned to me for help and I have none to offer. Is there any suggestions that can be given to them to help them out? Thanks!--Gordonrox24 | ^Talk 21:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Assistance requested on Glass transition and Talk:Glass transition

On June 27, following a request from an uninvolved editor to intervene in an edit war, I edit protected Glass transition and blocked one editor for 24 hours over edit warring on that article. I have no knowledge of the subject at all, but the problem appears to be a fairly typical disagreement between two editors over article content and structure. The editor who I blocked has said she'll be away for a short time. Meanwhile, I'm getting nowhere at all with trying to determine the rationale for the other editor's preference for his version and with trying to create some kind of consensus. I have posted requests at RFC, 2 relevant project talk pages, and 2 related article talk pages as well as at the Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts page section related to the dispute, but so far no other editors have provided any input. A third, apparently otherwise uninvolved editor is urging me to revert to the preferred version of one of the involved editors; meanwhile, other editors have said that his editing has caused problems on other science-related articles. My repeated requests for discussion and consensus building have been met most recently with a bewildering technical mini-essay that, to my mind, accomplishes nothing. My concern is that the protection will expire and the edit warring will simply resume. Assistance most welcomed. Exploding Boy (talk) 21:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Since you posted this, several new editors who may help find a consensus version seem to have come by. I hope this is true, as I suspect that quite a few of us will be as lost in the subject as you are. Perhaps the thing to do here is step back and see if your requests for assistance from the various project pages will result in forward progress among the regular editors in the area? If several of them reach consensus, it may be easier to identify the odd man out if edit warring resumes. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

For some tangantally related events, please see here, here, and here. At the core is the same two warring "experts" as at the transition page listed above. Short summary, Editor A and B are warring about the page. B files an AFD on the page for a number of reasons, including almost as an aside two links of possible copyright violations. I see the copyright allegations while doing deletion sorting, quickly validate that they do indeed appear to be violations, and that the bulk of the article was added in a single initial edit. IMHO the entire article is thus suspect for copyright, and I hit CSD G12 on it. Editor A complained to his mentor, who then engaged me on my talk page, with the end result of me userifying the deleted article to the mentor's user space, with a promise that the copyright violations would be cleaned up.

I still do not know really what to think of this all. Editor B has expressed that, to him, the copyright issues are of lessor import. To me they are a serious issue, and I really do not know what to make of them. I want to AGF, but I see the hints of what could be a major copyright issue. OTOH, the subjects are highly technical, and the original sources, if there are such, may be offline books, and thus hard to pin down. All in all a mess, and I have no real idea where to go with it next, if anywhere. - TexasAndroid (talk) 18:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, TexasAndroid. There has been some additional discussion on the talk page since I posted this, which is good, so for the moment I'm leaving it as is--the protection is set to expire in a couple of days anyway. If there are copyright issues, however, then the copyvio portions of the article should be removed immediately per the policy. The highly technical aspect of the subject is another problem with the article, as it seems to me that it's not being addressed to a general audience, but rather to a specialist one. Exploding Boy (talk) 22:02, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Nothing exists that I can see that currently violates the copyright poli, but I am going to take my time with this and evaluate fully before I repost it to the mainspace for logger9. If you guys see anything in any article or draft article, please blank (or better yet, comment out) that section so that it may be rewritten. NW (Talk) 01:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Just a reminder that per the policy clear copyvios must be removed. Suspected copyvios can be tagged for further investigation. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Licorne again?

Are User:Licorne and socks still supposed to be banned? An IP, 173.169.90.98 (talk · contribs · block log), not listed at User talk:Licorne seems to pass the duck test, including location in Tampa, FL. —teb728 t c 06:31, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Please delete redirect

Resolved

 – --Stephen 07:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

If someone has a moment, can you please delete this redirect so I can move an article to the proper name? [19] Thank you. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 06:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks much! <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 20:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Can I change a redirect page into a disambiguation page?

Resolved

The search phrase Asbru leads directly into the site Bifrost

It is much more logical to have it lead into a disambiguation page Asbru_(disambiguation) than directly into Bifrost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oliorn (talk • contribs) 10:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Read WP:BOLD. --Triwbe (talk) 11:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear: when I try to change it into a disambiguation page I get a: "The page title or edit you have tried to create has been restricted to administrators at this time. It matches an entry on the local or global blacklists, which is usually used to prevent vandalism" message telling me to use this noticeboard to change the title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oliorn (talk • contribs) 11:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You can leave a request at WP:RFPP in the section for requests to edit protected pages.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

What am I missing? Asbru does lead to the DAB page. Nothing I see was ever protected. Has whatever problem that existed been resolved? Tan | 39 15:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It didn't until today.[20] Not sure why Oliorn had a problem editing it, though. Either way, marking as resolved.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It appears it wasn't a page protection issue, but a local or global blacklist issue, as Oliorn notes in his comments above. It seems I can edit it now (although I didn't hit "save", and maybe that's when the blacklist kicks in?), so maybe it was a poorly written blacklist item that's now been reverted? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Protected TFA page

I would like to add the following sentences to a protected TFA page. The protection instructions against vandalism brought me here. The sentences should be added just after the sentence ending with "in Basel".

• Calvin was mainly based in Geneva where he promoted reforms in the church. He introduced new forms of church government and liturgy, despite the opposition of several powerful families in the city.

Thanks. --RelHistBuff (talk) 12:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• That page isn't protected. Stifle (talk) 13:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

But it's on a "local or global blacklist", which means it isn't available to us mere mortals. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no sentence on that page ending with "in Basel". There's this:

After religious tensions provoked a violent uprising against Protestants in France, Calvin fled to Basel, Switzerland, where in 1536 he published the first edition of his seminal work Institutes of the Christian Religion.

What do you suggest? - Jarry1250 ^{[ humourous – discuss ]} 15:09, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. Could you put the suggested sentences right after the one that ends with "Institutes of the Christian Religion". Thanks. --RelHistBuff (talk) 02:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Question about Golan consensus

Not really sure if this is right place to ask this. Since there is a consensus right now at the Golan Heights page that Golan is only Israeli controlled, and not a part of Israel proper, shouldn't we then follow that consensus at other pages? I mean are we supposed to have the exact same discussion at 100 different talkpages that mentions Golan? I'm thinking about the Sea of Galilee article, Druze article and also the Anti-Lebanon mountains article.

This is about basin countris, the lake gets water from Golan: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_of_Galilee&diff=299514700&oldid=299513289

southern Mount Hermon is in Golan: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Lebanon_mountains&diff=299514201&oldid=299512301

The numbers of druze are including those in Golan: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Druze&diff=299513684&oldid=299512685 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, good luck with that. I think linking to the consensus discussion at Golan Heights in your edit summaries, and on talk page discussions where you make the relevent changes is a good idea. But, given that this ethnic conflict is not going to be solved by a consensus discussion at Wikipedia, expect to receive a whole lot of shit for doing so, even if you are in the right here, based on that consensus discussion... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I really need some more help then "Good luck with that" .. the one changing "Israeli controlled" to Israel is this user http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fipplet I have already told him when I change back the article that we should follow the Golan article but he keeps changing it. I'm sure if an administrator sent him a message that we should follow the Golan heights article, he would listen.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Although they may not directly answer the question Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/West_Bank_-_Judea_and_Samaria and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration/Placename_guidelines may be useful for reference or for progressing your case. --FormerIP (talk) 00:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Troll?

I believe

• Kdpsssps (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Is trolling User:Star Mississippi, and creating harrasment pages about them on uncy. The user may be Kip the Dip (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Please investigate.--Otterathome (talk) 18:02, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Editors are presumed to be acting in good faith unless evidence indicates otherwise. Please present evidence. Durova^{273 featured contributions} 19:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if this user is Kip the Dip, block them for trolling and move on. They are clearly the same person as the user of the same name on Uncyclopedia, and clearly created a pages over there attacking StarM, and clearly came to Wikipedia to brag about it less than two hours later, and are clearly unproductive here on Wikipedia. Block indef. I don't know if Uncyclopedia is another version of ED or not, so I don't know if they actually clean up crap like that or not (certainly seemed impossible to find a page to report it to), but at least we can block trolls when we find them here, yes? --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Evidence it is the same person, and not some "impersonation": [21] on Uncyclopedia, where he says Wikipedia is "bullish", meaning it bullies innocent users like himself, an odd turn of phrase. [22] says the same thing on Wikipedia 4 hours later, using the same odd "bullish" phrase. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Whoever or whatever the editor is, he/she is on a final warning notice, any further disruption should lead to immediate blocking. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That final warning is from 28 June. Their attack article on Uncyclopedia, and their bragging about it on User talk:StarM, occured after the final warning. Unless the plan is to give them a "this time we really, really mean it super-duper final only one more chance after this" final warning? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

User is using the other wiki to harass User:Star Mississippi and bringing it to his attention acting as an innocent user. Don't know why he still isn't blocked.--Otterathome (talk) 20:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Evidently the 2009 Peter Damien crisis has occupied all admin free time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey, why is that a redlink? :P MastCell ^Talk 20:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

He's after me also--actually he got to me first. I deleted an article he wrote, after someone properly tagged it, and I see Star M warned him for his vandalism to my p., so that's how Star M got into it. DGG (talk) 01:23, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, DGG. Troll, without a doublt. Whether there's enough to connect him with the account above and warrant a CU, I have no idea. DGG and I have had a mutual troll before, who it could also be. I won't block as obviously involved but suggest it should be done. He can't do too much w disparaging me, this is the only place I use this username - thanks to some previous off wiki harassment. ETA see it's not me but Wikipedia. No idea how to have such content removed. Anyone know? THanks StarM 01:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I blanked the page, and asked an admin to delete it: [23]. You would think they wouldn't have a big bureaucracy over there, hopefully that will be enough. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:35, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

On Uncyclopedia, at least, things get done the same century they're requested. Attack page deleted, troll blocked. I like that they have a block duration of "until Judgment Day", much classier than "indefinitely". --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:54, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Floque! Request someone here block the user, don't want to as I'm involved, but clearly here for no good. StarM 03:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

miss use of Refimprove?

I am not sure how to deal with an editor who is using Template:Refimprove in my view overzealously. The tag was added to Dunstable an article already with 28 references across all sections (quite unusual for a settlement article) by User talk:Jenuk1985. I reviewed the page and having not found the problem(s) I removed the tag adding an edit summary as required. This resulted in a level one warning been posted for removing a tag without giving a reason etc. On asking him at his talk page if he could draw my attention to the problem he had identified, his response was unhelpful and indicated in effect he could not be bothered to clarify why he added the refimprove tag so I advised I would remove it as I could not find anything wrong. He then decided to give me a further warning. I noticed his talk page is currently filling up with other editors complaints due to his overzealous and unexplained actions on other articles. A review of the edit history on his talk page suggests he has been annoying other editors for some time. This to me appears to be a disruptive editor who is doing little to contribute to Wp and is wasting and upsetting other editors whilst misusing guidance and deployment of threats to block. I have now tidied up a couple of cn's that have been around on the page for a while and added a summary of action taken on the Talk Page What should I do not just to spot this editor hounding me with warnings but for others sake too? Tmol42 (talk) 17:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, If the reason for a tag is not immediately apparent it is expected to leave some note on the talk page explaining why it was left. –xeno^talk 18:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks like Wikipedia:Gaming the system. This is not the only example. The same editor seems to have repeatedly antagonized, bullied and threatened other editors while making changes to articles and citing one interpretaion of different policies and guidelines in an authoritative manner. FairFare (talk) 20:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to get too involved with this as I feel it is making a fuss out of nothing! When you are in the background cleaning everything up and using templates to alert problems, you never get any thanks, just a load of people moaning. I request that FairFare answers me one question, if you can't cite policies and guidelines, then what can you cite? A large number of editors seem to take it on themselves to unreasonably ignore guidelines (outside the remit of WP:IAR), and the only way to drill sense into them is to cite said guidelines. As an aside, I notice Tmol42 has stooped to what is verging on a personal attack in this edit, I don't take too kindly to being called a "sad editor". It would also be nice if said editor would refer to me as the correct gender, the name Jen kind of gives it away! Jenuk1985 | Talk 23:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Guidelines are all very well, but their application is no substitute for consensus and discussion. Most guidelines are just that- guidelines, with exceptions for common sense, which invites proposals and discussion. They are not unilateral licences for "bull in a china shop"-type edits, even when cited by reference to some policy or guideline which is open to interpretation. Even more so when such edits are imposed without any discussion whatsoever as to their merits. Rodhullandemu 23:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

So on one hand, I'm getting it in the ear from the US Roads Wikiproject that guidelines are everything and must be adhered to at all times, yet some people aren't happy with the guidelines and would prefer it if they didn't exist. I can't win! I'm working with other wikipedians around the globe to get the encyclopaedia up to a respectable standard, well referenced, meeting the MOS as appropriate, and I get moaned at for it! I read a comment a few days ago that if you get people moaning about your reasonable edits, it should be taken as a compliment, as good work will always attract people who don't like it! I'm guessing you are here because I removed the photo gallery from an article, whereas you feel it should remain, hence this note on my talk page? (Which wasn't really a useful message, hence the reply not being particularly useful) If you disagree with my edit, revert it and discuss it in an appropriate place, in this case WP:IG may be a suitable venue! Sometimes people forget about WP:BRD. The only times I re-revert in this situation is if the guidelines are blatantly not being followed, in which case, its verging on being disruptive. I always revert/warn on removal of maintenance templates without first fixing the problem, there are people out there that don't like templates on "their" articles, we just have to fight against these ownership issues. Jenuk1985 | Talk 00:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill. Killiondude (talk) 00:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

This thread has angered me that there is such pettiness on WP, its nice for someone to come along and put some common sense input in :) Jenuk1985 | Talk 00:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Al Franken

He was just declared the winner of the election. Be prepared for a possible lock on the article. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

both good and bad news. Crap, but that was a long recount... - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

A more pressing question: can we keep WP:NORMCOLEMAN? Sceptre ^(talk) 23:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Gaelcholáiste Reachrann

Could someone take a look at Gaelcholáiste Reachrann? Again and again, going back to March 2009, IPs, as well as User talk:SkynetBot2201 once (SkynetBot is already blocked) have been persistently inserting "due to claims of abuse" or "claims of sexual abuse" into the same sentence about the school being reported in the national media. May well be the same person with a shifting IP coming back every few days. Thanks. Tameamseo (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted back to the last clean version (yours) to remove the defamatory edit. As this has been going on for just short of four months with three distinct IP addresses involved, I have semi-protected for one month. We will need to watch for accounts being created to continue this vandalism. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

Resolved

 – Zapped. Bencherlite^Talk 00:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Could someone please delete the redirect page...

• User talk:Scarce/Archive 3

For me? the tags take forever and I kind of need this done soon, Thank you ---Scarce |||| You shouldn't have buried me, I'm not dead--- 23:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/A Man In Black

This arbitration case has closed and the final decision is available at the link above. A Man In Black's (AMiB) administrative privileges are revoked. He may reapply at any time via the usual means (RfA) or by appeal to the Arbitration Committee. AMiB is topic-banned from the Article Rescue Squadron. AMiB is placed on a standard editing restriction for one year. Ikip is warned to refrain from making large-scale edits which may be interpreted as canvassing and from directing rude comments to users with whom he is in dispute. This notice is given by a clerk on behalf of the Arbitration Committee. AGK 23:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

See Anti-rule #14 Manning (talk) 08:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

RFC - Celebrity death hoaxes

With all of the death hoaxes in the past week I think its time we sorted out our consensual policy on this matter. I've created a one-line article at Celebrity death hoax and created an RFC to go with it. Interested editors (including admins) are invited to give their opinions. Manning (talk) 00:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Um. Was it your intent to create that page in mainspace, rather than in project space? I think the latter would be more appropriate if the goal is discussion of policy. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 17:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit war

There is an ongoing edit war in the Baby Boom Generation article, would anyone mind taking a peek. thanks... South Bay (talk) 00:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The editwar in question has been over for many hours, since the sockmaster and puppets (the ones adding the 'information') were indeffed. → ROUX ₪ 00:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet?

MarkusBJoke (talk · contribs) possible Sockpuppet of Judo112 (talk · contribs). MarkusBJoke took part in about 15 Afd's since creation. In all of them supporting Judo112's position. The votes are very often made in a close timeframe to Judo112 [24], [25], [26], [27], [28]. Comparing their edits history i would say they come from the same computer. MarkusBjokes's first edit after account creation was a supporting vote for Judo122 [29] that made Judo122's position win. Maybe they are twins or wife and Husband or otherwise close connected as this behavior is ongoing in a recent Afd i would like you to have a look at it. Iqinn (talk) 03:02, 1 July 2009 (UTC)Sorry, my mistake, this should have gone to the Incidents board. Iqinn (talk) 03:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this should probably be here. Just down the hall, on the left. → ROUX ₪ 03:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Solved here. I moved it to Incidents. Thank's Iqinn (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above.

• Within 15 days of this decision, Mattisse shall, in conjunction with one or more mentors or advisers, submit to this Committee for approval a plan to govern and guide her future editing with the continued assistance of those mentors or advisers. The plan shall seek to preserve Mattisse's valuable and rewarding contributions to Wikipedia while avoiding future disputes and the types of interactions that have been hurtful for herself and others. As a starting point in developing the plan, Mattisse and her mentors or advisors should consider the suggestions made by various users on the workshop page of this case, including but not limited to Mattisse's taking wikibreaks at times of stress, avoiding or limiting Mattisse's participation on certain pages, Mattisse's refraining from making any comments regarding the motivations or good faith of other users, and Mattisse's disengaging from interactions that become stressful or negative. The plan should also address how any lapses by Mattisse from the standards of behavior described in the plan shall be addressed.
• User:Mattisse/Plan (version as of 24 June) is enacted as a baseline. Amendments to the plan may occur by consensus of the mentors, whereby the changes become provisional. At the discretion of the mentors, or if there are significant objections by the community, the provisional changes will be reviewed by the Arbitration Committee at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment.
• Should Mattisse fail to submit a satisfactory plan under remedy 1 within 15 days of this decision, she shall not edit Wikipedia until she does so, except with permission of this Committee.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tiptoety ^talk 04:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Discuss this

Review of HanzoHattori continued if illegal editing

HanzoHattori (talk · contribs) was permmbanned in Feb 2008. Since then, he has created several socks, and seems to keep returning to Wikipedia; there is no indication that he will ever stop. His newest sock, User:Ostateczny Krach Systemu Korporacji, was just discovered and banned today (although I cannot seem to find the CU request/evidence page...?). Yet I am not posting to complain about futile attempts to keep him away; instead I am posting here in order to request the review of the permban on him. Long story short, it appears to me upon a cursory review that his socks have been performing constructive, not disruptive edits; none of his socks has violated our polices, been blocked of even warned for anything as far as I can tell - they were editing constructively for weeks or even months, up to the point they were banned upon being confirmed as socks of HH (presumably due to editing the same articles/subjects). An unban of him was proposed by another admin already few months ago (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive470#Productive_socks) and since than we have accumulated more evidence (based on his continued pattern of editing via socks) that he wants to be a constructive member of our community. He is making constructive content edits (creating and expanding articles), he is not edit warring, and doesn't seem to be flaming or otherwise disruptive (which IIRC was a major complain against HH). As such, I believe we should review his behavior once again, since its shows signs of improvement, and consider unbanning him, perhaps under some restriction/mentorship. In the end, if Hanzo wants to help us build encyclopedia in a constructive manner, without repeating his past mistakes (as he has shown us he can), why should we not allow him to do so? Not to mention that blocking his successive constructive socks is making a mockery of our ideals that blocks/bans and such should be preventative, not punitive. PS. I'd like to strongly encourage all who had bad experiences with HH to review his behavior in the past year and so instead of remembering old grievances. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:23, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Request block on Vandalism-only account

User:195.229.237.37 Reverted an edit from this user today and noticed a few other warnings. Check his contribs and it appears that 100% of this users edits over the past year+ are vandalism. Granted they are spaced out, but the above fact stands. --MiloKral (talk) 09:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

IPs are not accounts, so they cannot be "vandalism-only accounts" (see WP:Vandalism-only account for more information). In the future, however, if an IP or a user is vandalizing, you'll get the bets response posting it at WP:AIV. As for now, this IP has had only one recent warning, which doesn't warrant a block at this time. If the IP continues vandalizing after a final warning, please report at AIV. hmwithτ 14:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed ban for Elance user Tayzen

• http://www.elance.com/experts/tayzen
• Yaromunna (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Vpopescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Cinagua (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Chabaka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

If you participated in the paid editing RFC, you might have come across User:Ha!/paid editing adverts. Unfortunately that only scratches the surface with respect to Tayzen's paid spam. You'll find the evidence at WT:WPSPAM#Tayzen. Differences from what was posted in the RFC:

• The spam is cross-wiki.
• Found several more confirmed and suspected paid editing jobs. These are marked new.
• I also found several clusters of suspicious edits that look like paid editing jobs.

The four accounts above are (sock|meat)puppets operated by this user.

Furthermore, there are more jobs in the pipeline: [30], [31]. These comments suggest he has no remorse. I think it's time to use the banning policy to stop this nonsense. MER-C 12:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I should note that if you want to get the full text of the Elance postings, you can append a referrer string such as &rid=18J3T to the URL. MER-C 12:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

IB Diploma Programme

Strictly, this falls under WP:DR but it's an ongoing issue that doesn't fall neatly into any of the DR categories. It's possible that the matter could resolved quickly simply by an admin popping by and banging a few heads together; it's also possible that any solution will be harder than that! If, having read this, anyone can suggest a better venue then please do.

This article has become a battle-field, bogged down with different sets of opposing editors. The article's subject is a diploma issued by the International Baccalaureate (IB) organisation, which one set of editors apparently regard as being "bad", while in turn the other set consider it "good". "Good" and "bad" here roughly translate to "Promoting peace and opposing conservatism" and "The demon-spawn of the United Nations" ;-) Somewhere in the middle is a group who want the article to follow WP:NPOV.

The issue is particularly contentious as there has been a recent court case in which one or more editors may have been involved (at least one editor suspects that they met another editor during the case). This has led to possible WP:OUTING and a lot of distrust.

Content disputes become quickly heated, and turn into low-level edit wars, complete with accusations of vandalism.

Ideally, I'd like a non-involved admin or two (or three...!) to watchlist the article. Hell, I'll take what I'm given, and if you want to steer me towards a more appropriate venue then please do. All I want is for the pain to stop ;-)

Cheers, TFOWR^{This flag once was red} 15:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

To correct a couple of misrepresentations by TFOWR, whether editors consider the IB Diploma Programme "good" or "bad" is irrelevant. It is my understanding that Wikipedia is supposed to present facts in an encyclopaedic manner. The USC issue was resolved. The UN issue was resolved. The current dispute involves the placement of a sub-section titled Application, Authorization and Fees. I have never "met" the other editor in question in person, however this individual has stalked me all over the Internet and is using Wikipedia for their own personal war by reversing my contributions to the article in a destructive manner. Yes, there are two "camps" when it comes to IB, those who will draw blood to defend the IB programme and those of us who simply want the truth to be told. ObserverNY (talk) 16:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY

This noninvolved admin found that reading the article's talk page gave me about the same throbbing headache as listening to small children in the back seat of the car squabbling on a long trip over trivialities. Edison (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

That's pretty much how I feel. Any chance you could make us walk home, or at least threaten us with no supper?! Anything to make the pain stop...! Cheers, TFOWR^{This flag once was red} 16:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Admins - To add full disclosure. I am also an editor on this site and have written on the talk page. Early today I was also seeking where an appropriate solution could be found to resolve the bickering. I sought out a neutral editor who had volunteered to help the community and posted on their page as they requested. You can read my post here if you so wish. --Candy (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit Warring...

and removal of rollback. I would like to have my rollback back because I had it taken away for edit warring with a rowdy user, and others had reverted this user also. If you look, you will see I have a pretty good track record and I beleive I should not have had my rollback taken away. By the advice of another admin, I post here to beg for my rollback back. Many users feel I have been unjustly revoken, along with threats of other users. Please regrant rollback because I was only reverting a vandal with over 200 nonsence edits. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 16:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

This wasn't vandalism. The back and forth you fell into was a needless edit war over good faith edits and a wanton abuse of rollback. As someone else has said, you're lucky you weren't blocked too: In looking at User:Qelknap's contrib history, I don't see "a vandal with over 200 nonsence edits." Unless I'm missing something and you can put up some diffs which show otherwise, I think you might want to brush up on WP:Vandalism and WP:3rr. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

the diff. disruptive As I see it, there is no point in removing rollback. I FELL into it, and I should not be punished, rather the other person, seeing as he started it. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 16:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a new user who may not know what they're doing. Did you ask Qelknap about all those null edits? Did you try to discuss your worries about Qelknap's edits at Electronic_prescribing? Gwen Gale (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

See my deleted warnings, and pleas to stop. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 16:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I've already asked for diffs, put them here please. You call this odd, rude templating of a newcomer a "discussion."? Gwen Gale (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello admin--I assure you, most of the time I am not joking nor do I make "joke" edits. I haven't touched an article for a few hours. And when I did edit, it was GOOD work.75.21.114.176 (talk) 17:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

That was just left on my talk. Also, What else was I to do, maybe some humor would lighten them up, and this template has been used before here. Sorry, differant user saying "beware wiki-nazis"Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 17:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

That's the dumbest template I ever saw, Andrewrp. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It was not made by me, by badmachine, I think. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 17:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I know I should have not reverted, but when other users are warning and blocking, what are you to do. I was never warned to stop, only after the user was bloced. I feel that after some sort of punishment, I should get rollback back, along with the same punishment for the other rollbacker. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 17:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well let me put this clearly. On Huggle, I saw Qelknap's 200+ nonsensical edits to Parliament be reverted and he/she received their first warning. They continued to edit Wikipedia in a disruptive manner and were repeatedly warned. So their "colour and number" changed progressively from 2, to 3, to 4 (yellow, to brown, to red). I was never one of the editors who reverted their original edits, nor did I warn them. When the user was finally reported, I naturally assumed that there was consensus that the edits were unconstructive and constituted vandalism. I then proceeded to revert changes they made to Wikipedia until the case was resolved at WP:AIV. Perfectly normal practice. If you want more information, feel free to browse the history pages relating to Qelknap.--Just James ^T/C 17:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I feel the same way, and I think I and him should get some sort of punishment (or maybe not), than back to rollback. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 17:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Just James, do you still have rollback after this mess? Gwen Gale (talk) 17:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

• I think so, seeing no one told him otherwise. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 17:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, both of you, we can talk further about this on Andrewrp's talk page (give me a tick, maybe 10 minutes, thanks). Gwen Gale (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

• Confirmed, he still has it. Andrewrp^Tally-ho! 17:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) For the record, I removed rollback for Just James (talk · contribs) for edit warring on the same article at 17:41, 1 July 2009 (UTC) right before I found this thread. Toddst1 (talk) 17:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's it. I suppose it's time I leave Wikipedia after nearly 3 frustrating years.--Just James ^T/C 17:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Unblock request from indefblocked user

Saikano (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks confirmedsuspected), a lolicon and anime enthusiast, was indefblocked in March 2007 for disruptive editing, WP:NOTFORUM, WP:IDHT and various other issues, having been dropped by their adopter when Wikipedia's standard clue-instillation measures had no effect. Their former userpage has been deleted, so the contents are admin-only.

Since that time, a number of sockpuppets have shown up, both confirmed and suspected (WP:DUCK has apparently proved a reliable principle with this user). All have all gone the way of the original account; relevant links are in the above template.

The latest account, Akemi Loli Mokoto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), was blocked by me on 25 June this year following a report on ANI, now archived here. Initially this was a username block - I felt that 'Loli' was an inappropriate reference, given their userpage advocacy of lolicon (and related off-site activities found via googling the username). Their actual edits, however, seemed ok. During the ANI thread it transpired that this account was another Saikano sock, so I reblocked indefinitely. However, betwixt blocks and missed by me, the user had managed to get an unblock request in where they disclosed their former activities and made an apology and request to be allowed to edit Wikipedia legitimately once again. The talkpage of the Akemi Loli Mokoto account has been unprotected (thanks Hersfold, I forgot!) so they can follow through their unblock appeal, and some dialogue has since taken place. Their latest, and apparently last-ditch, appeal was this afternoon.

I believe the user is sincere in their wish to contribute positively to Wikipedia, although I have some serious reservations about their personal beliefs and in what form these may manifest if permitted to resume editing. I'm aware that my distaste for their preferences is influencing my judgement, so, in the best tradition of passing the buck, I hand this one over to the community... EyeSerene^talk 17:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)