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Page ban for Ikip from the BLP RFC
Disclosure, I am hardly a disinterested party here.
I filled an arbitration request on Okip (talk · contribs) due to his continued disruption at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people and its talk page. He's already been warned by a number of uninvolved users and blocked once for edit waring. The full details of my complaint can be seen on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Ikip.
It is being suggested there that the community might deal with this, so I'm posting here to request that Okip be banned from the pages in question. There are plenty of well-behaved users who share his policy concerns and I'm sure they'll not fail to represent themselves. 200 odd users have contributed to this important RfC, so I'm sure the outcome can't be adversely affected by one less. His posts are off-topic and personalising - as even those who have supported his outlook agree.
This ban would be as a result of behaviour not opinion - and he'd still be free to post ideas to the talk pages of likeminded users who can make sure the points are heard on the RFC if they are germane.
If we can form a consensus here, I am willing to withdraw the arbitration request.
I am not asking for a full discussion of his behaviour, that would be best at a userconduct RfC, I'm just asking for an admin consensus to protect the BLP RfC from further disruption.
--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Is it just Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people that he'd be banned from? If not, could you list the pages that you propose he'd be banned from? I very much think that this would be a good idea, provided the page/topic ban is very limited. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 19:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- (nonadmin) I support in principle but I think the ban may be too broad. How about just a ban on posting complaints about other editors and possibly on complaining about the RfC itself, ArbCom, administrators, secret mailing lists, and other process matters in the family of RfCs. He would be free to state his actual opinion on what should be done about BLP, though. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- There are 240 participants in the RfC, I think he's a) had his fair share of participation by far b) do you really think his inability to comment there will inhibit the RfC from reaching whatever fair consensus it does? Users are allowed to edit to make things better, not as a right. Allowing him to continue there risks further disruption or gaming and is unlikely to make much better.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Your action could perceived as trying to get rid from the negotiation not only of (IO)kip but also all the editors he represents and share his view. That you much it's at stake. That is not just (IO)kip the simple editor. Whatever rationals and logicals arguments you can line up here can't get rid of that perception because it's utterly not rational.
- (nonadmin)(IO)kip must stop posting complaints about other editors relating to the BLP matter on the RfC or other process pages. This a negotiation and in a negotiation there is no niceties like choosing your interlocutors. A good negotiator defends for the best the interests of those its represents and negotiating with persons you don't trust or dislike is part of the job. (IO)kip failed badly in that area. --KrebMarkt 20:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- This is forum shopping. A few hours ago Scott Mac filed an arbitration request in the attempt to bypass dispute resolution and get a topic ban on this editor. Responses have asked him to initiate Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ikip. Please withdraw the proposal and pursue dispute resolution. Durova412 19:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Durova, not only did he make it clear that he had already filed a request for arbitration and was moving here instead, but he explained here why he believed filing an RfC would be unproductive. NW (Talk) 19:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- And several people responded that it would be inappropriate to sanction this editor without any attempt to work out the issue through normal means. It would not be a good thing to give the appearance of attempting to silence dissent. Durova412 19:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I am uninterested in sanctioning the editor. This is about prevention NOT punishment. Indeed, I concede your point that an RfC might be the best way to address any behavioural issues. My immediate concern to to prevent further disruption to the BLP RfC, and a user conduct RfC is unable to do that in a timeous fashion.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- The difference is where to draw the line between disruption and legitimate lines of inquiry. If an editor has the type of questions he has, where would they raise it? Durova412 20:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I've suggested repeatedly he open a user conduct RfC on the issues he has. My problem is not with them being raised. It is with repeated personal conduct complaints being made on a policy RfC. My problem is I am torn here. He is making unfounded insinuations about me, which I wish to challenge him to substantiate or retract. But if I respond to him on the policy RfC I simply encourage the derailment. If he'd agree to file user conduct RfCs and leave a policy discussion to be about policy we could all go home content.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, how about this? There are a couple of types of venue that could be applicable here: an RfC on the merits of Okip's questions (or if that seems to formal, how about a page for community discussion?) Or a user conduct RfC. In order to be totally evenhanded I'll offer to certify the latter on either Okip or Scott Mac, although here's hoping no conduct RfC is necessary. Durova412 20:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- As far as I'm concerned, if you get Ikip to agree to stop posting any discussion of editors to a policy RfC, I'll drop the whole thing. If he's got any accusations against me, then I'll be happy to respond to any user conduct RfC he wishes to file (although I don't think he'll do that - he'd rather use smears and innuendos). I'm not interested personally in "reforming" him, although I suspect other mightwant to filean RfC on him. My only interest is that the policy discussion can continue undisrupted. And, no, I'm not trying to silence the views of those who deny the BLP problem - I want the whole community to debate the systemic issues and not the personal stuff. Durova, if you can get Ikip to desist for disrupting the BLP RfC, you'll have my support. But consider that two arbs and several admins have already tried.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:37, 17 February 2010 (UT
- I am unclear as to how we can prevent the obvious disruption on the BLP RFC by opening another RFC. It certainly does not seem the most expeditious way of dealing with the matter at hand. Kevin (talk) 20:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Okip's his own man; I don't have a whole lot of influence over him. Been biting my teeth a bit regarding this thing and would certainly like to see it head in a more productive direction. Durova412 20:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, how about this? There are a couple of types of venue that could be applicable here: an RfC on the merits of Okip's questions (or if that seems to formal, how about a page for community discussion?) Or a user conduct RfC. In order to be totally evenhanded I'll offer to certify the latter on either Okip or Scott Mac, although here's hoping no conduct RfC is necessary. Durova412 20:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I've suggested repeatedly he open a user conduct RfC on the issues he has. My problem is not with them being raised. It is with repeated personal conduct complaints being made on a policy RfC. My problem is I am torn here. He is making unfounded insinuations about me, which I wish to challenge him to substantiate or retract. But if I respond to him on the policy RfC I simply encourage the derailment. If he'd agree to file user conduct RfCs and leave a policy discussion to be about policy we could all go home content.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- The difference is where to draw the line between disruption and legitimate lines of inquiry. If an editor has the type of questions he has, where would they raise it? Durova412 20:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I am uninterested in sanctioning the editor. This is about prevention NOT punishment. Indeed, I concede your point that an RfC might be the best way to address any behavioural issues. My immediate concern to to prevent further disruption to the BLP RfC, and a user conduct RfC is unable to do that in a timeous fashion.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- And several people responded that it would be inappropriate to sanction this editor without any attempt to work out the issue through normal means. It would not be a good thing to give the appearance of attempting to silence dissent. Durova412 19:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- RFCs tend to take a month, and often accomplish little or nothing, c.f. A Nobody's RfC (which I note was disrupted by Ikip!). I don't think we want to hold up progress on something as important as the BLP RfC for a month to deal with one user's disruption of it. It's not "forum shopping" to bring matters here for a quick resolution, it's expedient, and Scott is to be applauded for flexibility in seeking to resolve matters efficiently. I support a narrowly framed page/topic ban. ++Lar: t/c 03:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Durova, not only did he make it clear that he had already filed a request for arbitration and was moving here instead, but he explained here why he believed filing an RfC would be unproductive. NW (Talk) 19:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Diffs?. Can someone point out to unusually vituperous behavior or some such? The BLP RfC has seen a lot harsh statements from a lot of editors. Is Ikip/Okip outstanding in that respect? I do find him a little annoying because he tends to write long and sometimes repeated posts about the same issue. But he does not rise to a WP:DISRUPTION as far as I can tell. Perhaps some evidence would help clarify this request. Pcap ping 19:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- As he pointed out in his original statement, he has further detail here. GARDEN 19:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- On a quick inspection, he was blocked and then quickly unblocked, and the arbitration request has yet to be decided. This parallel request appears premature, if not WP:FORUMSHOPing. Pcap ping 19:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- On the contrary, ArbCom is always happy when the community manages to resolve these things on their own. Suggesting that this request is premature as long as there's a request at RFAR is getting it backwards, frankly. I make no comment on the merits of Scott's suggestion. Steve Smith (talk) 19:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- On a quick inspection, he was blocked and then quickly unblocked, and the arbitration request has yet to be decided. This parallel request appears premature, if not WP:FORUMSHOPing. Pcap ping 19:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- As he pointed out in his original statement, he has further detail here. GARDEN 19:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- When so many people have behaved in dodgy ways around the BLP business, why single out Okip? By pushing to find out who apart from MZMcBride and the individual who seems now to be known as "K" were involved in the mailing list cabal that was involved in events prior to the rfc, he is not helping create a calm atmosphere, but the senior editors involved in the mass deletions did not act exactly act in a moderated way either. If we are rightly in my POV, not going to have a witchhunt to identify all members of the cabal, I don't think we should have one against people who complain about it either. I doubt that forcible silencing of Okip action is exactly going to reduce paranoid interpretations of what is going on anyway. Rather it will just convince some that the cabal is flexing its muscles.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- No one is silencing anyone. The BLP RfC relates to a community discussion of policy. Ikip is repeatedly posting unfounded accusations there. I have invited him to file a userconduct RfC on the users he has issues with, and whatever evidence he has can be presented and discussed. That's all. He's welcome to raise issues about MZMcBride - although I'm not sure what remedies he's seeking.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Evidence
(also by an involved party)
- MZMBcBride manufactured this crisis on his "secret mailing list" by "subtly vandalise little-watched BLPs by adding false, misleading, or inaccurately sourced information to then; monitor them to see how long it took for the vandalism to be reverted; and publicise the results". ... I would put this to a !vote, but MZMBride, along with Scott MacDonald who started this crisis (stating he had "utter contempt" for "community consensus") have made a complete mockery of our consensus building system. ... This RFC has been marred by severe corruption, severe rule breaking, "utter contempt" for "community consensus" and dirty tricks from its inception, which should shock the conscience of any wikipedian.
- The creator of this RFC is directly responsible for the very violations this manufactured RFC was created to stop
- an dysoped administrator who vandalizes unreferenced BLPs by proxy ... When you want to advance in wikipedia, editors will look back on this conversation and say "Mr.Z-man defended the actions of a dysoped administrator and his banned sockpuppet who vandalized wikipedia".
- MZMcBride the creator of this RFC, is creating the very crisis he wants new rules for. ... The context strongly suggests" this "secret mailing list" is being used for meat-puppetry, and canvassing. ... Tacitly supporting meat-puppetry, and canvassing by not investigating seems negligent. Do you know the names of this "secret mailing list" Fritzpoll? Do they include Kevin, Scott MacDonald, Coffee and Lar?
- The most vocal editor is a desysoped administrators who enlisted banned users to conduct breaching experiments and use secret mailing lists to manipulate policy.
- Coffee, whose wheel warring led up to this RFC, has defended this "secret mailing list", and has not responded on whether he was a member
- Scott, every time I see you use the word consensus, I remember your severe violation of consensus.
- Scott Macdonald states he has "utter contempt" for "community consensus". He is later thanked by Mr. Jim Wales. In a later request for clarification, Mr. Jim Wales defends his decision to thank Scott MacDonald.
- How do you reconcile your continued fervent defense of MZMcBride, who helped introduce "inaccurate information" with your continued concern about "inaccurate information" (what you support calling "sewers") on Wikipedia? Are you a member of this "secret mailing list"?
- the "breached experiments" which you are justifying? ... are you a member of this "secret mailing list"?
- Mr. Z-man weren't you the editor who removed other editors opposing comments in the petition which called 17,500 editors contributions "sewers" along with Scott MacDonald?
- the justification for these new rules is a hoax and the radical punitive punishment far outweighs the benefit. ... So your solution, most probably dreamed up in secret mailing lists ...
- Whereas your group of extremely disruptive editors sees 52,000 articles as "sewers". It seems this "BLP offwiki forum" will go to any length to push through their bullying, draconian vision of wikipedia, including recruiting a banned editor to do a biography of living persons breaching experiment.
- Both NuclearWarfare and Mr.Z-man have defended these breaching experiments and MZMcBride
- The editors proposing radical change, many, including Mr. Wales support the editors who have "utter contempt" for "community consensus" (to quote Scott MacDonald) an offwiki mailing list was set up by the creator of this RFC to change BLP policy, MZMcBride.
All of these comments are from the past 3–4 days.
Additionally, I have asked Okip to stop referring to a single comment I made as support for his position on the RFC (as I've told him multiple times, I disagree with him). However, even after multiple requests, he continued to quote me out of context (or sometimes just refer to me without quoting), at least 6 times, including 4 times on the same page.
This is supposed to be an RFC about content and policy. Comments and speculation on the behavior and attitude of other users are not appropriate, especially when not accompanied by evidence. Okip has been asked several times by several users (including uninvolved arbitrators) to tone down his comments and either provide evidence or retract his claims. For the most part, Okip has refused to do so. In June 2009, Ikip was warned by ArbCom to refrain from making large-scale edits which may be interpreted as canvassing or making rude comments to users he’s in dispute with. In this RFC he has done both. Mr.Z-man 23:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Question': Where do these "utter contempt" for "community consensus" quotes, apparently attributed to Scott, come from? If true, they'd seem likely to cause drama, at least as much as Okip may have.-Milowent (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=339388380. Doc withdrew the comment and apologized for its tone. The whole matter was the subject of wideranging community comment and an ArbCom motion. That is, yes, they did cause drama, but it was a while ago and now its time to move on to more productive discussion. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- It was a heat of the moment comment, retracted and apologised for, and my more considered opinion offered. But Ikip keeps quoting it (totally out of context) despite the fact I've nicely asked him to desist twice. It seems he'd rather use it for rhetorical effect than enter into a real debate. I suppose I've no one to blame but myself, but sad really.--Scott Mac (Doc) 23:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining, it gives me a little more context. Repeating arguments may be annoying, but their persuasive power won't get stronger by doing it.--Milowent (talk) 05:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- It was a heat of the moment comment, retracted and apologised for, and my more considered opinion offered. But Ikip keeps quoting it (totally out of context) despite the fact I've nicely asked him to desist twice. It seems he'd rather use it for rhetorical effect than enter into a real debate. I suppose I've no one to blame but myself, but sad really.--Scott Mac (Doc) 23:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=339388380. Doc withdrew the comment and apologized for its tone. The whole matter was the subject of wideranging community comment and an ArbCom motion. That is, yes, they did cause drama, but it was a while ago and now its time to move on to more productive discussion. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Question by a really rather uninvolved "member of the community"
Is there any reason why I should not block User:Okip indefinitely while they disrupt the BLP/RfC (I may have commented, in a, sort of, "Yeah, lets get this thing resolved on a least harm basis" - and if I haven't then I should) while they insist on placing their concerns (of which I have no opinion) regarding the genesis of this request there? Okip, as far as I can see, has been requested to raise their concerns at a venue where their persistent deprecation on the motives and actions of some of the movers in the BLP/RfC might be addressed. When I say, "block indefinitely", I mean for as long as they insist on keeping the discussion regarding their concerns about the RfC on those pages - as soon as they agree to open another process relating to their concerns then the block can be lifted, and in no way would this sanction limit their "right" to comment on the matter of the BLP concern. My suggestion simply separates their concerns regarding BLP issues, as raised in the RfC, generally, and their concerns regarding the genesis of the request. I am serious. As an uninvolved (as far as brane funkshums allow) commentator, I see a clear divide between the issues raised by the RfC, and those which concern Okip. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Then someone will unblock and we'll have the 4th ArbCom case request surrounding BLPs in just a few weeks. Better not. The goal of this discussion should be to reduce dramaz and recriminations. Pcap ping 02:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- There is certainly no problem with your asking him to drop the WP:STICK with the clear message that if he doesn't turn down the rhetoric about ten points then a block will follow. You are certainly uninvolved and have no obvious history that would make it inappropriate for you to act here. Guy (Help!) 10:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Totally agree, it would be completly appropriate for you to give him those standards. Even though I would like to see him removed from the BLP discussion all together considering he rarely has anything constructive to add besides asking for the status quo to stay as the de facto standard; but at least a block from bringing up totally irrelevant information would help in some ways. — Coffee // have a cup // ark // 14:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think an overall indefinite block would be overkill. Okip appears to be moderating. And apart from the personal conflict, he(?) is contributing encyclopedic work. (Disclosures: I'm not an admin. I am involved in the BLP RFC, on the side against systematic deletion. My only involvement in the personal issues is to ask on the RFC page that they either be taken elsewhere or a truce declared.)
- I am presently going with Guy's suggestion - and have written to Okip's talkpage accordingly. Also, commentary by non-admins is more than okay - it is to be encouraged. Sysop only viewpoints tend to be a bit samey, and input from others gives valuable perspective. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:43, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Maurreen (talk) 04:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- when what he is saying is that the status quo would work if people would actually systematically work through the articles instead of talking about how to it, there's a great deal to what he says. As for other matters, attempts to block one's principal opponent in a debate inevitably tend to raise questions. It is usually better to put up with annoyance than to appear repressive. DGG ( talk ) 16:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think Okip is the "principal opponent" here, not as far as actually speaking to the issue goes. He is possibly the most voluble, and certainly the only one to continue to disparage his opponents in this manner. That behaviour's what has provoked this criticism, not his views on unsourced BLPs. pablohablo. 22:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Very much in agreement with this view. Over at WP:AUS, we've gotten our number of unref'd articles down from 2100 to around 700 at the present point, just by ... well, referencing them. It was made possible by some friendly and helpful people that got the toolserver to spit out a list of our unref'd articles. It's not perfect - there's been several false positives, and undoubtedly a few omissions too. But if the people crowing around going "It's such a big issue!" were to work with the WikiProjects, especially the big ones, then the issue would get resolved by content-focussed people who don't give a stuff about who's shouting at who on the noticeboards, and this ridiculous drama could be avoided. Orderinchaos 19:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- No reason exists for blocking Okip. Those attempting to silence him are those who disagree with him and who want to force a minority viewpoint on the community. It is thus nothing more than an effort to silence/censor an opposing viewpoint. If anything, Okip should be promoted to adminship given the knowledge and intelligence he has displayed. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, bullshit. Agreeing or disagreeing with each other is fine; it is when it gets belligerent and off-putting, as Ikip has clearly been, that it becomes a problem. Don't play the OMG CENSORSHIP card, please. Tarc (talk) 17:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- "belligerent and off-putting" would be say calling hundreds of editors and admins "slackjawed retards" as you have done. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- perhaps you could concentrate on discussing edits on wikipedia rather then the editor off wikipedia. Spartaz Humbug! 18:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps everyone could concentrate on actually improving articles instead of starting obviously frivolous discussions about editors with whom we simply disgaree? Imagine how many articles on living people might actually get referenced if the same effort playing games on admin boards (or in threads on that off-wiki site linked to above) were put into finding and adding sources to the articles in the first place... Sincerley, --A NobodyMy talk 18:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- That indeed is my hope. Unfortunately, someone seemed to be posting multiple discussions, smears, misquotes and attacks on me (and others) to a policy discussion. All I wanted was for that to stop. I don't want Ikip banned blocked silence or whatever. Indeed if he wants to discuss user conduct, I've suggested he opens a user conduct RfC. He's welcome to disagree with people in the policy discussion, but he needs to stop personalising it.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, imagine if everyone spent so much time working on improving articles. Except they haven't, and that's why there's an RfC. People are pretty consistent in that they're not gonna do squat until they have to, which concept is supported in spades by all the BLPs that have been improved since the beginning of the RfC, not to mention Okip even starting some sort of BLP improvement contest (which is a lovely idea that I wish more people knew about and would participate in). That said, Okip's view does not represent a majority viewpoint as clearly evidenced at the RFC itself and he has clearly tried to derail the RFC with political mud slinging. I support LessHeard's decision to carefully warn Okip. If he wants to be a part of the future then I'm sure he's as welcome as any of us but the innuendos and ad hominem attacks need to stop. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 18:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Far more people create, edit, and come here to read the BLPs being deleted than comment in these sorts of discussions. The actual majority opinion of our editors and readership is that we should cover these things, but far more editors and readers than not are not interested in joining such threads as this one. Those trying to make others do something really should just do it themselves. The same time it takes tossing up an AfD and associated templates trying to get someone else to do something could and should just as easily be spent finding and adding some sources. Trying to motivate other volunteers is ultimately counterproductive and just creates extra work and eats up extra file space. I would only request help from others if I cannot do it myself. When I come upon an article with typos in it, I do not slap a needs proofreading tag on it, I fix whatever grammar error I can instead. Friendly talk page notices encouraging someone to proofread or add sources seems reasonable, but just spending time starting an AfD and going back and forth in that Afd without instead finding sources (something that is not hard in the age of Google News and Academic Search Complete) makes no real sense. And as I have said elsewhere, the idea that having an AfD in which random accounts dismiss a real person as "non-notable" or some other insult is somehow okay versus an article just baffles me. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 19:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- You are missing the point entirely. I accept that Okip's view on unsourced BLPs is a fairly widely held viewpoint. The problem is that rather than discuss using reasoned arguments and on-topic discussions, Okip has decided to argue by throwing around innuendo and allegations of misconduct in an effort to discredit his opponents and invalidate weeks of discussions, commenting on users rather than their opinion. This section is a good example of the problem. I hadn't made any substantial comments (if any at all) on the RFC since phase I ended. I replied to some of Okip's points, and noted that he seemed to be focusing overly much on the past actions of users to the extent that his comments were bordering on personal attacks. So how does he respond? By attempting to discredit me. I've also been accused of being a member of a secret mailing list and defending breaching experiments. All because I disagreed with a couple of comments that Okip made. Mr.Z-man 20:34, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- it is perhaps an open question who is trying to invalidate the current consensus rather than refine it and actualize it. In the history of this and other policy arguments, argument, HAS CURRENT CONSENSUS has a great tendency to mean THAT'S THE WAY I WANT IT. During the course of implementing a general proposal, it has sometimes been the case that the people who supported the idea as a general proposal have not agreed on how to implement it. It has even sometimes been the case that during the discussions on implementation, it has been realized that the proposal needs to be very extensively modified. Okip has I think played a constructive role in discussing this, and discussing them with a fair degree of flexibility and openness to suggestion. Even those who brought the arb com and suggest an RfC like some of what he has been proposing. I do not want to enter into the question of the behavior of various parties, but it does not seem unreasonable to me that there is a good deal from various sides that could be called into question. I think this especially when I see the defenders of drastic actions defend them as , well, the overall result was positive, which I take as an implied recognition that many people think that their methods may not have been all that straight-forward. The practical question is whether we allow this discussion over the earlier actions to be the focus of attention. I recognize in myself the feeling that resents those actions sufficiently that I might want very much to discuss them. But in my calmer moments I do see that it is perhaps not the best way of making progress. I think that Okip does see that also, at least for now. DGG ( talk ) 02:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Behavior is the only thing at issue here. His views themselves are not disruptive; only the way he's advocating them. Mr.Z-man 02:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think he now realises this. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- He shouldn't be blocked. This is nonsense YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
The actual majority opinion of our editors and readership is that we should cover these things, but far more editors and readers than not are not interested in joining such threads as this one. BS. That sounds like the complaining of someone who supported a politician who lost an election: "most people really support my viewpoint, it's just that none of them ever say so." You're just making things up out of thin air, please stop. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 09:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Based on what? He's retracted only a token fraction of the allegations he's made without evidence and has apparently decided not to apologize. Mr.Z-man 23:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- He shouldn't be blocked. This is nonsense YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think he now realises this. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Behavior is the only thing at issue here. His views themselves are not disruptive; only the way he's advocating them. Mr.Z-man 02:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- it is perhaps an open question who is trying to invalidate the current consensus rather than refine it and actualize it. In the history of this and other policy arguments, argument, HAS CURRENT CONSENSUS has a great tendency to mean THAT'S THE WAY I WANT IT. During the course of implementing a general proposal, it has sometimes been the case that the people who supported the idea as a general proposal have not agreed on how to implement it. It has even sometimes been the case that during the discussions on implementation, it has been realized that the proposal needs to be very extensively modified. Okip has I think played a constructive role in discussing this, and discussing them with a fair degree of flexibility and openness to suggestion. Even those who brought the arb com and suggest an RfC like some of what he has been proposing. I do not want to enter into the question of the behavior of various parties, but it does not seem unreasonable to me that there is a good deal from various sides that could be called into question. I think this especially when I see the defenders of drastic actions defend them as , well, the overall result was positive, which I take as an implied recognition that many people think that their methods may not have been all that straight-forward. The practical question is whether we allow this discussion over the earlier actions to be the focus of attention. I recognize in myself the feeling that resents those actions sufficiently that I might want very much to discuss them. But in my calmer moments I do see that it is perhaps not the best way of making progress. I think that Okip does see that also, at least for now. DGG ( talk ) 02:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- You are missing the point entirely. I accept that Okip's view on unsourced BLPs is a fairly widely held viewpoint. The problem is that rather than discuss using reasoned arguments and on-topic discussions, Okip has decided to argue by throwing around innuendo and allegations of misconduct in an effort to discredit his opponents and invalidate weeks of discussions, commenting on users rather than their opinion. This section is a good example of the problem. I hadn't made any substantial comments (if any at all) on the RFC since phase I ended. I replied to some of Okip's points, and noted that he seemed to be focusing overly much on the past actions of users to the extent that his comments were bordering on personal attacks. So how does he respond? By attempting to discredit me. I've also been accused of being a member of a secret mailing list and defending breaching experiments. All because I disagreed with a couple of comments that Okip made. Mr.Z-man 20:34, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Far more people create, edit, and come here to read the BLPs being deleted than comment in these sorts of discussions. The actual majority opinion of our editors and readership is that we should cover these things, but far more editors and readers than not are not interested in joining such threads as this one. Those trying to make others do something really should just do it themselves. The same time it takes tossing up an AfD and associated templates trying to get someone else to do something could and should just as easily be spent finding and adding some sources. Trying to motivate other volunteers is ultimately counterproductive and just creates extra work and eats up extra file space. I would only request help from others if I cannot do it myself. When I come upon an article with typos in it, I do not slap a needs proofreading tag on it, I fix whatever grammar error I can instead. Friendly talk page notices encouraging someone to proofread or add sources seems reasonable, but just spending time starting an AfD and going back and forth in that Afd without instead finding sources (something that is not hard in the age of Google News and Academic Search Complete) makes no real sense. And as I have said elsewhere, the idea that having an AfD in which random accounts dismiss a real person as "non-notable" or some other insult is somehow okay versus an article just baffles me. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 19:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps everyone could concentrate on actually improving articles instead of starting obviously frivolous discussions about editors with whom we simply disgaree? Imagine how many articles on living people might actually get referenced if the same effort playing games on admin boards (or in threads on that off-wiki site linked to above) were put into finding and adding sources to the articles in the first place... Sincerley, --A NobodyMy talk 18:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- perhaps you could concentrate on discussing edits on wikipedia rather then the editor off wikipedia. Spartaz Humbug! 18:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- "belligerent and off-putting" would be say calling hundreds of editors and admins "slackjawed retards" as you have done. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, bullshit. Agreeing or disagreeing with each other is fine; it is when it gets belligerent and off-putting, as Ikip has clearly been, that it becomes a problem. Don't play the OMG CENSORSHIP card, please. Tarc (talk) 17:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Where does this matter stand at this point? It's not clear if there is a consensus, or if there's been a change in behavior, or if there will be an RfC, or a case, or no action, or what. Thanks for any clarity. ++Lar: t/c 04:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, the RfC looks overwhelmingly headed for closure soon, despite I/Okip's dissaproval (and badgering, even on my talk page, when I'm much less involved than others), so the point of banning him from a closed RfC is going to be rather moot soon enough. Pcap ping 07:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Why some (unsourced) BLPs are a huge problem.
We have been lucky that we didn't have a second Seigenthaler incident. For a year and a half, from 26 July 2008 until today, we had an article claiming that someone who in reality is a University professor, former Italian Minister and former President of Sicily (as evidenced by the interwiki and by a Google search) was in fact a "flashy mobster" who "was imprisoned in 1999 at the age of 53, for: narcotics trafficking, conspiracy to commit murder, several counts of murder in the first degree & several counts of assault on an officer." Fram (talk) 08:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- ...and the article was...?
- Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- The revisions have been deleted; publicising the name of the article helps nobody. ⇦REDVERS⇨ Say NO to Commons bullying 08:52, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- You can easily check it in my editing history (my log of deletions will help as well), but for BLP privacy sake, I'ld rather not put the name here. Yes, I realise that that makes this a bit awkward... Fram (talk) 08:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Look... If you're going to bring something to a noticeboard, it needs to be useful in some way. Informative - there's a problem we didn't know about, etc. Alerting - do something about this. Those sorts of things.
- Posting the equivalent of "Elvis is still dead" is not useful. Yes, we know there are problem BLPs out there. We weren't given any useful information here - no article to check the edit history on, to see if editors are still around who contributed to this mess, to cross-check other articles they were involved in. No information to better inform future decisions on either operational response or policy decisions.
- I would accept "other admins / arbs / whoever have already done those other reviews, all taken care of". But in that case... why put any mention on AN at all?
- Putting something here is asking for attention. Don't do that if you don't want attention...
- Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's a wake up call, a notice that despite the claims of some people in e.g. the BLP RfC or other pages, there are a number of very serious, long term BLP violations on (unsourced) BLP pages which could harm those people seriously (the article in question has been spread over many, many WP copies, with the result that any English language search for his name gives rather bad publicity), and could harm Wikipedia seriously as well (our reputation didn't really get a boost from the Seigenthaler incident). Furthermore, anyone can very easily find which article this is about, so people can check whether I handled this delicate situation correctly and whether any further action (oversight, rounding up of every involved editor, ...) is necessary. Fram (talk) 09:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to reinterate (once and only once more) that this is a curious approach to and goal in posting something to a noticeboard, and that it was not perhaps entirely useful. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- And the discussion caused by your objection to it is even less useful.--Scott Mac (Doc) 09:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to reinterate (once and only once more) that this is a curious approach to and goal in posting something to a noticeboard, and that it was not perhaps entirely useful. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's a wake up call, a notice that despite the claims of some people in e.g. the BLP RfC or other pages, there are a number of very serious, long term BLP violations on (unsourced) BLP pages which could harm those people seriously (the article in question has been spread over many, many WP copies, with the result that any English language search for his name gives rather bad publicity), and could harm Wikipedia seriously as well (our reputation didn't really get a boost from the Seigenthaler incident). Furthermore, anyone can very easily find which article this is about, so people can check whether I handled this delicate situation correctly and whether any further action (oversight, rounding up of every involved editor, ...) is necessary. Fram (talk) 09:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- *sigh* - the edits have been undeleted now and suppressed per policy. You can see who made the edits but not the edits themselves, thankfully. That article was an utter disgrace - Alison ❤ 09:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well done everybody, and it is a bit of a worry that this survived for so long. Nick-D (talk) 10:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I have no doubt that that vandalized BLP was not an isolated instance, but its not about having a few sources cited. The reason we don't have a second Seigenthaler incident is because the press won't cover every wikivandal case. Its not exciting to be "second" in the news about such things, aside from an occasional "wikipedia reported XX was dead for 10 minutes today". To the extent the general public knows anything about wikipedia, they know that anyone can edit it, and thus sometimes its wrong. But the root of the problem is not whether an article has a few sources or not--its about vandals who wish to deface a page. One day when I checked out what Wikipedia Review was, I became aware of a trio of articles repeatedly vandalized by a troll for over 2 years, where he asserted (with different usernames or IPs every few months) that one person was not a person at all but a pseudonym of the other. This started happening in mid-2007, and was last vandalized earlier this month. The articles are Chris Gore, My Big Fat Independent Movie, and Philip Zlotorynski (the last of which currently redirects to the movie article as a protective move). These articles were not unsourced BLPs -- they had some sources cited, and the blatant vandalism was slipped in, and overlooked despite other editors stopping by from time to time (like one editor suggesting that the two BLPS be merged if they were the same person, oblivious to the fake claim). Sample diffs for Zlotorynski:[1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. Since I am watching the articles now, and have berated the loser vandal, I suspect the problem will be controlled (but now that admins will read this, feel free to ban him). So, while unsourced BLPs are the bogeyman of the day, I have had trouble finding any link between BLPs that are sourced and whether they become a vandalism target. The vast majority of BLPs, sourced or otherwise, are uncontentious. Though, if BLPs could not be edited by IP editors or unconfirmed users, this case may have not happened.--Milowent (talk) 14:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that 'xyz was a former President of Sicily' is now considered just as much of a BLP violation as 'xyz was a flashy mobster'. Yet all you have done here is replace one unreffed BLP with another. So, per BLP, somebody delete the professor's article, and then someone can replace it with a sourced article about the mobster of this name, who actually lived in the 19th Century. MickMacNee (talk) 15:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- No, its still a BLP violation, but negative material that is provably false is much greater of a violation. Mr.Z-man 15:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- The sort of vandalism claimed here is not he dangerous kind, for such edits will be very quickly spotted. The people advocating strong action on unsourced BLPs have been generally highlighting the danger of the less watched and unnoticed articles, where vandalism can stay for a very long while. I'm not sure either is as much of a problem as the potential for damage to people in what are ostensibly non BLP articles. There are a great many many problems, and the attitude that all usourced statements are harmful prevents a focus on the true problem areas. Given our basic principles of editing this is hardly surprising. Given them, I'd say we had a rather low lever of vandalism, and I think a number of outsiders have commented that we are among the best sites in attention to removing them. The reason we have a very low level is because of the great number of editors, and the true solution to the problem is to encourage new people to become active, which is not done by deleting articles. (In the meanwhile, the existing ones will need to work a little more carefully and perhaps a little harder.) DGG ( talk ) 17:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- For a year and a half, from 26 July 2008 until today, we had an article claiming that someone who in reality is a University professor, former Italian Minister and former President of Sicily (as evidenced by the interwiki and by a Google search) was in fact a "flashy mobster" who "was imprisoned in 1999 at the age of 53, for: narcotics trafficking, conspiracy to commit murder, several counts of murder in the first degree & several counts of assault on an officer. - is that what you mean by being spotted quickly? Guy (Help!) 18:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Well unless people actually check the sources to see if they're true or unwarped, it won't help, as many entrenched users use fake sources etc. And people are reluctant to make a stand against entrenched editors, especially when a lot of the pov pushers are part of an ethnic/religious bloc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I am not going to defend BLP violations, but are we sure it is vandalism?
- I cannot see the deleted edits. However, the Italian corresponding article is weakly sourced but enough to confirm that the guy has indeed a criminal record as being involved with Mafia, even if dissimilar in the details from the one cited above, and he has indeed been involved in that at the age of 53. See here for example if you can read Italian -the source is one of the main Italian newspapers; I am happy to provide a translation if needed. (The thing is complicated by the subject having the same surname of a notable Italian mobster -with whom he is involved in the events leading to the arrest, making the whole thing a bit convoluted). --Cyclopiatalk 00:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Also, see [7]. Again, the details do not fit with what Fram says it was in the article, but the situation is much less clear-cut than it seems. Again, happy to provide translation if needed. --Cyclopiatalk 00:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Cyclopia is right. The guy was "presidente della Regione siciliana", and was also arrested as a mobster; he was also addressed as "professore", which doesn't necessarily mean he was a university prof. Did you think their mafia has no political connections?! Surely references are good, but there seems to be no contradiction here between the two statuses. Reminds me of a recent similar case in Romania, but I forgot the name of the guy. Pcap ping 02:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- No, they are not the same person - the problem is there are two separate Giuseppe Provenzano's. One is a 19th century Sicilian mobster (see [http://www.onewal.com/w-proven.html this link). The other one is a former President of Sicily who was in office from 1996-1998 (see Politics of Sicily). Unfortunately their names both linked to the same article, which apparently contained both the mobster bio and the President's bio scrambled into one. They need to be disambiged and separated into 2 different articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.136.35.108 (talk) 08:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- There are two different Giuseppe Provenzano. But the professor (who was a university professor indeed) we're talking about was also arrested or otherwise implicated for strong suspects Mafia connections, due also to turncoat's confessions, and not in the 19th century but few years ago. An excerpt from one of the refs above "Ma l' incarico di "curatore" dei patrimoni del boss di Corleone - è la rivelazione di Francesco Di Carlo - sarebbe stato affidato poi a Giuseppe Provenzano, eletto deputato regionale in Forza Italia il 16 giugno scorso e diventato presidente della Regione. Il pentito Di Carlo avrebbe raccontato di conoscere queste vicende "per averlo appreso personalmente" da Totò Riina e da Bernardo Brusca. I due boss sostenevano - sempre secondo Di Carlo - che il professore Giuseppe Provenzano, commercialista, docente alla facoltà di Economia e commercio dell' università di Palermo, un tempo anche perito del tribunale, avrebbe fatto quadruplicare i capitali di Binnu." ("But the responsibility of managing the belongings of the Corleone boss -that's the revelation of [turncoat] Francesco Di Carlo - has been delegated then to Giuseppe Provenzato, elected as a deputy in Forza Italia 16th of June and became president of Region [of Sicily]. Turncoat Di Carlo explained he knew about this for "having personally learned" from Totò Riina and Bernardo Brusca. The two bosses claimed -according to Di Carlo- that professor Giuseppe Provenzano, accountant, lecturer at the Economy and Commerce faculty of Palermo University and even assessor to the Palermo court, would have made the fortunes of Binnu quadruplicate") --Cyclopiatalk 13:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- He was arrested for suspected mafia connections, he was not convicted for murder and so on, and didn't die in prison last year (as the article also claimed). Some vandal used the bio of the 19th century mobster, and pasted it on the current professor/politician. That minor parts of it were correct does not mean that it is somewhat better. Was the professor ever convicted? Fram (talk) 20:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Don't know. Don't take me wrong, you were absolutely right in removing such unsourced information, being it true or not. I was only presenting such info here because, being unable to see the edits, I wasn't able to decide if they referred to the real arrests or not of the subject. --Cyclopiatalk 22:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- No problem. The article did not refer to the actual allegations of links with the mafia, but only linked the actual 19th century mobster facts with the current politician (using his death of birth and so on). Fram (talk) 08:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Don't know. Don't take me wrong, you were absolutely right in removing such unsourced information, being it true or not. I was only presenting such info here because, being unable to see the edits, I wasn't able to decide if they referred to the real arrests or not of the subject. --Cyclopiatalk 22:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- He was arrested for suspected mafia connections, he was not convicted for murder and so on, and didn't die in prison last year (as the article also claimed). Some vandal used the bio of the 19th century mobster, and pasted it on the current professor/politician. That minor parts of it were correct does not mean that it is somewhat better. Was the professor ever convicted? Fram (talk) 20:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- There are two different Giuseppe Provenzano. But the professor (who was a university professor indeed) we're talking about was also arrested or otherwise implicated for strong suspects Mafia connections, due also to turncoat's confessions, and not in the 19th century but few years ago. An excerpt from one of the refs above "Ma l' incarico di "curatore" dei patrimoni del boss di Corleone - è la rivelazione di Francesco Di Carlo - sarebbe stato affidato poi a Giuseppe Provenzano, eletto deputato regionale in Forza Italia il 16 giugno scorso e diventato presidente della Regione. Il pentito Di Carlo avrebbe raccontato di conoscere queste vicende "per averlo appreso personalmente" da Totò Riina e da Bernardo Brusca. I due boss sostenevano - sempre secondo Di Carlo - che il professore Giuseppe Provenzano, commercialista, docente alla facoltà di Economia e commercio dell' università di Palermo, un tempo anche perito del tribunale, avrebbe fatto quadruplicare i capitali di Binnu." ("But the responsibility of managing the belongings of the Corleone boss -that's the revelation of [turncoat] Francesco Di Carlo - has been delegated then to Giuseppe Provenzato, elected as a deputy in Forza Italia 16th of June and became president of Region [of Sicily]. Turncoat Di Carlo explained he knew about this for "having personally learned" from Totò Riina and Bernardo Brusca. The two bosses claimed -according to Di Carlo- that professor Giuseppe Provenzano, accountant, lecturer at the Economy and Commerce faculty of Palermo University and even assessor to the Palermo court, would have made the fortunes of Binnu quadruplicate") --Cyclopiatalk 13:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- No, they are not the same person - the problem is there are two separate Giuseppe Provenzano's. One is a 19th century Sicilian mobster (see [http://www.onewal.com/w-proven.html this link). The other one is a former President of Sicily who was in office from 1996-1998 (see Politics of Sicily). Unfortunately their names both linked to the same article, which apparently contained both the mobster bio and the President's bio scrambled into one. They need to be disambiged and separated into 2 different articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.136.35.108 (talk) 08:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Cyclopia is right. The guy was "presidente della Regione siciliana", and was also arrested as a mobster; he was also addressed as "professore", which doesn't necessarily mean he was a university prof. Did you think their mafia has no political connections?! Surely references are good, but there seems to be no contradiction here between the two statuses. Reminds me of a recent similar case in Romania, but I forgot the name of the guy. Pcap ping 02:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Community ban proposal for Jack "Red Hood" Napier
Posting this proposal under a sock name because the original account may be the user's real name. Last year Drew R. Smith was caught deliberately falsifying a reference source and was nearly community sitebanned afterward for that and serial copyright violation. The closing administrator gave a final warning:
- While many users have expressed support for an indefinite ban, no clear consensus has been achieved. Drew has been reblocked for 30 days, with the understanding that once his block expires, he will be under close scrutiny. Any further misbehavior, or the revelation of non-confessed past behavior, will result in an immediate indef block/defacto ban. Vicenarian (Said · Done) 04:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually there were other undisclosed copyright violations at that time and afterward he made more copyright violations. Recently he also falsified sourcing again and checkuser has confirmed a sleeper sock as well as a likely result on a vandalism-only account. Those vandalism edits included adding obscene images to other people's user pages (caution--explicit content in link).[8]
Evidence
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Drew R. Smith
Confirmed - the following accounts as being the same editor;
- Drew R. Smith (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Jack "Red Hood" Napier (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Davis Bloome (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Likely
- MakemydayOW (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Additional sock confirmed by previous checkuser
- Another admitted sock
-
- User:Ender The Xenocide (account created from unified login after first attempt to change user names)
- Undisclosed copyright violations prior to final warning in lieu of siteban
- File:Knight Goby.jpg, from here: identical background, simple crop.
- File:Diagram of swine flu.jpg, claims self-made, appears to be a derivative work from here.
- File:Abramites hypselonotus.JPG claims to be self-made public domain release. Image has halftoning; obviously duplicated from a book.
- Subsequent copyvio uploads
- File:Pompom.jpg The upload at Wikipedia asserts "Disclaimer states images can be reused under cc by sa." and links only to the image itself, not to the license statement.[10] The top result on Google Images for this image states "Copyright © 2007-2010 All About Aquarium Fish. All Rights Reserved."[11]
- File:Michael Grant Cahill.png
- File:L. Eduardo Caraveo.png
- File:Michael Pearson.png
- File:Russell Seager.png
- File:Francheska Velez.png
- File:Juanita Warman.png
- File:Kham Xiong.png
- File:Justin M. DeCrow.png
- File:John Gaffaney.png
- File:Frederick Greene.png
- File:Aaron Thomas Nemelka.png
- File:Jason Dean Hunt.png
- File:Amy Krueger.png
- File:Long-beakedEchidna.gif
- File:Echidna, Exmouth.gif
- File:Player at Island Paintball.jpg Copyright defaults to the photographer, not the subject. No OTRS submission.
- File:Player at Island Paintball.png Copyright defaults to the photographer, not the subject. No OTRS submission.
- Source falsifications
- 2009: File:Insectivorous Plants Drew's copy.jpg deleted as blatant hoax after this admission: Drew R. Smith had used an image editor to alter the text of a reference source, then yellowed the background to make the image look like a scan from an old book.
- 17 February 2010: creates article at Wikipedia.[12] The entire text is a cut and paste from a Citizendium article[13] that was written in 2009. Violates Citizendium's CC-by-sa 3.0 license[14] by failing to give any attribution to Citizendium or the article's authors,[15] plus falsifies sourcing throughout the article. Sample for comparison: Wikipedia paragraph,[16] identical uncited Citizendium paragraph,[17] irrelevant reference added to Wikipedia paragraph does not substantiate the paragraph.[18]
- Other problems (copied from User talk:Moonriddengirl)
- Heart Full of Black (song): (1 edits, 1 major, +663) (+663)
, problem, in that he incorporated a non-free image without a FUR. I don't think a FUR can be made to use the album cover to illustrate a single, so removed. Otherwise, article is unsourced & does not seem to be copied. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Paintball: (1 edits, 1 major, +552) (+552) ? Not a copyvio, but a peculiar use of its sources to support the statement "Fields may choose to use field paint only to offset insurance costs." One of the three sources focuses on insurance costs and liability, but the other two list insurance costs as just one of a long series of reasons. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Summary
After his hoax admission and apology last year I attempted to coach him in digital image restoration with the hope of integrating him into the community on a good footing. He did not follow through enough to make any substantial progress. His final responses to attempts at outreach within the last day and a half have been defiant.[19][20]
Many thanks to Alison, Jack Merridew, and Moonriddengirl for their assistance.
Per the above, I propose a community siteban. Durova412 05:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Discussion
- Support
- See:
- I spotted this reincarnation the other day while checking back on an unrelated thread on the same page and my first comment on it was at:
- This fellow is unrepentantly disruptive and sees this project as a game. Enough already.
- Cheers, Jack Merridew 06:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- more:
- File:Wewillfuckyouup.ogg, by Drew, which I just cut from his userpagefalse citation
- User:Drew R. Smith/Goldfish which needs vetting for copyvio images (and teh text?)
- and there's all the other stuff in his userspace that should probably all be deleted
- Jack Merridew 06:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- cough — Jack Merridew 10:49, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- You can't just say cough and expect him to be blocked. Have you got any evidence? Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 10:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I have email off him. It's him. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC) I just saw the timing of the last few posts; I wasn't coughing specifically at you; I'd not seen the block-comment below when I made my post; maaf, Jack Merridew 10:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- You can't just say cough and expect him to be blocked. Have you got any evidence? Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 10:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- cough — Jack Merridew 10:49, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support Enough is enough. I'd also like to point out that Drew is denying that User:MakemydayOW is a sock of his. However, MakemydayOW chose to vandalize Jimbo's user page. Jimbo's user page was also a target for User:Larry Sanger's revenge, another sock of Drew's. I don't trust him and he's not worth wasting any more time on. AniMate 06:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support Clearly they are not here to contribute, but to play games. Show them the door and block new socks on sight. There ais actually an additional sock not mentioned above [21]. -- <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 09:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support. The imagevios by themselves are a bannable offence. MER-C 09:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Blocked both Drew and Jack Napier account so I obviously support this. Enough is quite frankly enough. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 10:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- At least ban from uploading images. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- He also copyvioed an entire article two days ago. Durova412 16:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support siteban Were the effort and consideration into inserting falsehoods and copyvio's into WP directed toward working within policy then we would have an excellent contributor. That they were given that opportunity and spurned it is evidence, I suggest, that they are unsuited for the Wikipedia environmet and they should not be allowed to participate further. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Strong support. I was the one that blocked him for 30 days last year. In retrospect, we should have just banned him then. A cocky, holier-than-thou editor who is either a) bent on discrediting Wikipedia or b) obsessed with people thinking he takes good photographs or can come up with airtight references, neither of which he is capable of doing. Toss the key. Tan | 39 16:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support The user's "contributions" are highly disruptive. There have been many attempts at guidance. Enough, already. -- Flyguy649 talk 16:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose I noticed User:Durova's subjective 'defiant' comment in the summary and read User_talk:Durova#Being_reasonable, a section that was started by Jack "Red Hood" Napier. If that's going to be the quality of a summary then I have consider doubts of the quality of the investigation and the evidence but forward appears considerably distorted and quite one sided. I don't have the time to investigate but I feel at least opposing here will give others an opportunity for others to take a deeper look and review there supports with less herd of sheep type responses. SunCreator (talk) 17:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- That conversation was not actually started by Jack Napier; the thread header is a sarcastic response to an invitation at his user talk.[22] Compare:
- You may wish to comment here. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Drew R. Smith. If you'd also like to discuss this with me at my user talk, please do. I'm willing to be reasonable if you are. Durova412 23:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes Durova, I am willing to be reasonable, but it seems a bit late for that as you and Jack have already publicly outted me, and any contributions I make will be looked at with my past actions in mind. I made this account to get away from all of that. Thanks for nothing. Jack "Red Hood" Napier (talk) 00:30, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I was hoping he would admit to the copyvios and help with cleanup. If he had cooperated I would have sought a structured editing restriction if an experienced volunteer agreed to oversee his edits. Instead he replied "Thanks for nothing". That is not the reply of an editor who intends to adjust to site standards, and improper licensing is not an issue where we can be flexible: it's the law. Durova412 17:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing out the response to an invitation. I hadn't found that although it doesn't alter my view of the use of defiant in the summary.
- Please be aware of the saying Sarcasm on the internet is like winking on the phone. You may give that some consideration. Over years of internet communications I've found that treating anything as sarcasm is likely to lead to a breakdown in communications. Perhaps this sarcasm perception lead to the 'defiant' claim? SunCreator (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wow, a real and genuine example of the Chewbacca defense. Bleating marvelous! LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)(Resp to SunCreator. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC))
- Yes. Quite funny that he/she compares the support responses to a "herd of sheep", when he/she apparently cannot bother to do any sort of research before coming to conclusions. If the glove doesn't fit... Tan | 39 17:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- In fairness to SunCreator, a few hours after this siteban proposal started someone redirected the Jack Napier user talk page to the Drew R. Smith user talk without porting its contents. So part of the leadup discussion became hard to find and that might have confused SunCreator. Durova412 18:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I suggest at least I'm being honest when saying "I don't have the time to investigate". The editor in question here may of done all sorts of sh!t but I'm not convinced by a selective one-sided argument, especially in light of the closing suammry. SunCreator (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- They found their way to this page, and decided that they need not review the very many links by disparate editors to be found here... - but then, why allow evidence to get in the way of an argument (however good faith in being arrived at). LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- No argument there. Durova412 19:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- On the contary, it is the evidence of the summary that brings the investigation into question. I think my orginal post was quite clear. SunCreator (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- In fairness to SunCreator, a few hours after this siteban proposal started someone redirected the Jack Napier user talk page to the Drew R. Smith user talk without porting its contents. So part of the leadup discussion became hard to find and that might have confused SunCreator. Durova412 18:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- You think I am confusing the jury by questioning the evidence? Your misplaced put down is not constructive. (Response to LessHeard vanU) SunCreator (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes. Quite funny that he/she compares the support responses to a "herd of sheep", when he/she apparently cannot bother to do any sort of research before coming to conclusions. If the glove doesn't fit... Tan | 39 17:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think you are misinterpreting "Thanks for nothing". I don't see that as unconstructive. I read this edit as a willingness to make a newstart. (response to Durova) SunCreator (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- If he hadn't resumed his old problems, perhaps. Have a read at the preceding discussion at his user talk: not so much a break with the past as an attempt to avoid accountability for prior mistakes. Afterward when I showed him the problem with File:Pompom.jpg and invited him to provide a license reference that didn't state it was under full copyright, twice he changed the subject and finally told me I was wasting my time. Durova412 04:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wow, a real and genuine example of the Chewbacca defense. Bleating marvelous! LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)(Resp to SunCreator. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC))
- Could you supply the (three?) diffs for that please. SunCreator (talk) 04:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- You stated above that you've read the thread at my user talk page. If that was a true statement then you've already seen all of those discussion points. Durova412 04:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Could you supply the (three?) diffs for that please. SunCreator (talk) 04:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Strong support It's amazing reading all of this. Show them the door is definitely needed. Blocking any socks and reverting should be done immediately. Really sad to see this come about, --CrohnieGalTalk 17:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support ban Enough is enough. GlassCobra 18:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support ban) We should not be coddling users who treat warnings as sidewalk-chalk scrawls, especially where they're being unrepentant with violating copyrights. Get him out of here. —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 02:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Hello. I am Drew Peacock, Esquire. I am posting a reply as to me only. I am posting my reply in the subsection below titled "Please block the remaining sock." I am trying to write it all there. However, I can't go post there without saying that I am none of these people, I do not know any of them, I am not in anyway connected with any of them or any of their accounts. Thank for your time and consideration in reading these words and the other words under the next subheading.-- Drew Peacock, Esquire - my talk page - 07:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Support Repeated copyright violations and falsification of sources are not compatible with wikipedia's aim of being a "free encyclopedia". Abecedare (talk) 14:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Please block the remaining sock
According to Jack Merridew above, Napier is still socking with an unblocked sock account [23]. Can someone check and block? <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 19:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- An administrator should probably contact Jack to confirm the email evidence. Durova412 19:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'll block if the evidence is presented to me. Tan | 39 20:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I've been emailed the evidence and it's less than convincing - basically, it's the way an email from Drew_Peacock,_Esquire is formatted. I've already refused to block unless there's onwiki evidence or a cu. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 20:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- No, it's not ironclad. I'm saying I believe it and that time will tell. I left Alison a note and maybe she'll comment. I'll sock-tag the new account if anyone nudges me and I'll forward the email to any admin that would like. Tan, it won't fit in the wiki-email-box... Cheers, Jack Merridew 20:27, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wouldn't User:Drew Peacock, Esquire have shown up in the checkuser that was run? AniMate 20:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe it's best not to block this one. It appears to come from a different state than Napier. Admins and trusted editors who are curious for details are welcome to email me; best to be discreet with this one. Durova412 21:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- There's always the possibility that Droopy is Grawp, a known friend of Hugh Jarse and Eileen Dover ;) (nb: I had help on these;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 23:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Now there's a possibility; can't rule that out by geography. Would be a different discussion, though. Durova412 00:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wouldn't User:Drew Peacock, Esquire have shown up in the checkuser that was run? AniMate 20:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- No, it's not ironclad. I'm saying I believe it and that time will tell. I left Alison a note and maybe she'll comment. I'll sock-tag the new account if anyone nudges me and I'll forward the email to any admin that would like. Tan, it won't fit in the wiki-email-box... Cheers, Jack Merridew 20:27, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I've been emailed the evidence and it's less than convincing - basically, it's the way an email from Drew_Peacock,_Esquire is formatted. I've already refused to block unless there's onwiki evidence or a cu. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 20:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'll block if the evidence is presented to me. Tan | 39 20:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Let it dangle. Things Take Time. Cheers, Jack Merridew 21:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Collapse lengthy discussion by/about User:Drew Peacock, Esquire, not central to the ban proposal.
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(edit conflict) LOL. How's it hangin', Drewp? Ya, that was the email. What's going on here is an attempt to turn this to being about me. The first thing I called Red Hood on was his use of a positioned div to obscure the main username heading and the MediaWiki UI on his talk page. I cut that (also) and left him a note about it. Red Hood copied a lot of code from my userspace, including that technique. I had been positioning the "Cabal Approved" image on my talk, and formerly on my user page. It was positioned differently and was not intended to obstruct the edit and new section tabs. But, when using the modern skin and when the 'new section' tab is set to render as just a'+', it did. See here. I've since cut that. So, who is this guy? What's his fate? Cheers, Jack Merridew 16:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Drew Peacock, would you like me to discuss onsite the things that I had offered to discuss offsite? Out of respect for your privacy discretion appeared to be the best course. But you seem to prefer to discuss the matter here on the admin board. Is that correct? Durova412 23:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Random comment: This gentleman makes me look succinct. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Umm, guys? I'm just getting here late to the party, but this editor is
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Self-requested blocks
After several recent discussions on this subject, I have decided to codify the conditions under which I am personally willing to issue a block at a user's own request, and to create a category for admins willing to make such blocks. Category is at Category:Administrators willing to consider to requests for self blocking, requirements are listed at User:Beeblebrox/Self-blocking requirements. I'm thinking this is probably not a big deal, but I've been wrong before so I'm posting here. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- One too many to's? LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Or he's "Willing to consider two requests" :) --Cube lurker (talk) 19:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- One too many. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh crap. Hold on, I'll move it. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Apparently you can't move a category, unless I'm missing something. Deleted and re-created @ Category:Administrators willing to consider requests for self blocking. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh crap. Hold on, I'll move it. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Will you accept requests from fellow admins? =) –xenotalk 19:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- The wording of WP:SELFBLOCK allows for latitude. While I prefer that users use the self-blocking script, your requirements are reasonable. And responding to User:Xeno's question, it seems pointless to block admins since we can apparently unblock ourselves.-- Flyguy649 talk 19:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Contrary to Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Unblocking, though. –xenotalk 19:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit that had not even crossed my mind. I think I'm gonna go with no. My criteria are predicated on the idea that there is no appeal, an admin could easily get around that if they wished. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:30, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- As could any user by emailing unblock-en-l@lists.wikimedia.org ... –xenotalk 19:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Presumably, the blocking reason would link to the request on Beeblebrox's talk page, and the reviewing admin (not wanting WikiDrama) would either turn down the request, or at least contact the blocking admin first. -- Flyguy649 talk 19:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I believe the administrative overheard involved in dealing with self-requested blocks is a main reason they are typically frowned upon. Prohibiting an unblock request via the list should also be a bullet point. –xenotalk 19:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I've signed up, and copied - as noted in edit summary - and amended Beeblebrox's criteria, per User:LessHeard vanU/Requests for self blocking requirements. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
While I agree with the sentiment here, I disagree that adding a layer of bureaucracy is the best way to deal with it - although I certainly am not going to argue against it. I have always been willing to block users upon self-request; I think adding a category, listing personal requirements, etc is over-regulation. Bottom line - I'm willing to block anyone upon request, but I'm not going to sign up for this. Tan | 39 20:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- I only made the category because a lot of admins reject such requests by default, and I didn't want users to waste their time asking the wrong guy. And I'm absolutely not trying to hold anyone but myself to the criteria I've outlined, I only did that in the interest of not having my own time wasted. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox, I see that you've linked your requirements prominently on your talk page. Would it make sense to tag the requirements page instead of your user page, so that users could go directly from the category? Flatscan (talk) 05:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- That's a fine idea, thanks! Beeblebrox (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox, I see that you've linked your requirements prominently on your talk page. Would it make sense to tag the requirements page instead of your user page, so that users could go directly from the category? Flatscan (talk) 05:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Attack page
Living Persons task force IRC meeting
Hi everyone,
The Living Persons task force is having a meeting on IRC in about 28 hours, in the channel #wikimedia-strategy connect on the server freenode. If you need help accessing this channel, please see Wikipedia:IRC#Accessing IRC. The time of the meeting is at 0:00 UTC on Monday, 22 February, which you will notice if you have been in previous meetings is several hours earlier than usual. The meeting will be publicly logged (see past chats) and will generally follow the structure laid out at the agendas page. strategy:Task force/Living people has more information if you interested. Be sure to read our current project, a set of recommendations to the WMF Board of Trustees, if you plan to come.
Please do email myself or Keegan if you have questions on how to participate!
Yours sincerely,
NW (Talk) 19:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Noooooo! Boycott IRC. ;) Durova412 19:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
- Use Skype instead? ;) Killiondude (talk) 05:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I already have a chat room meeting at 11:30 UTC and it can go for 2 or three hours sometimes. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 05:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Use Skype instead? ;) Killiondude (talk) 05:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Cause of death SPA
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Does anyone remember an editor with a strange obsession with fiddling around with causes of deaths in bio articles? I've noticed 67.253.66.25 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and something about the edits rings a vague bell. DuncanHill (talk) 01:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I note they have issues regarding date formats, changing BritEng variant to USEng, too. If they continue, I suggest WP:BRI. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- This person also edits as User:75.68.82.23. Their edits are disruptive, and the IP should be re-blocked. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Hetoum I
Hetoum I (talk · contribs) has been disrupting wikipedia for quite a while now, and was banned indef as result: [43]. Previously his sock accounts were blocked for death threats [44], disruption, edit warring across multiple articles, etc. More info is available here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Hetoum I/Archive. He is back now with yet another IP, 216.165.33.249 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). The edits like this [45] [46] [47] with quite disturbing edit summaries, involving death threats, racial slurs, etc, show that this person has no intention to stop his disruptive activity or abide by his indef ban. As usual, his IPs point to the same university. I think the university would not be happy to know that their computers are used for making such edits in wikipedia. I think that maybe admins could contact the university Hetoum edits from to inform them what kind of edits he makes here? That may be a long term solution to the problem with this user. In any case, the IP 216.165.33.249 needs to be dealt with, as it is now used by Hetoum to evade his ban. Grandmaster 09:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Tagged as an educational IP and blocked for a week. Dougweller (talk) 11:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Requested move close needed
The requested move at Talk:List_of_free_and_open_source_software_packages#Requested_move has been open for over a month now, and an uninvolved administrator is needed to close it. See WP:RMCI for closing instructions. Ucucha 14:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Public speakers
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Happy‑melon 21:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Please see meta:Public speakers (admittedly there are no known cases of this page resulting in a speaking engagement). It seems to me inappropriate that, to pick one example well known to many of us, Thekohser should be using Wikimedia Foundation resources to advertise himself for public speaking when he has recently violated one of the very few Foundation-mandated content policies, WP:BLP, by deliberately introducing inaccurate information into biographies as a breaching experiment (and in the process led to an administrator being desysopped and one of the largest and most acrimonious drama storms in recent times). He has also, in the past, attempted to have the Foundation's 501(c) status rescinded. Anybody here who is a metapedian, I would invite to consider whether a guideline should be written such that people whose principal connection with the foundation is abusive are not enabled to advertise themselves through this mechanism. I would suggest that anybody signing up there should at the very least be required to sign up to a statement of support for the fundamental aims of the Wikimedia Foundation and should be subject to some sort of peer-review process by the meta community to ensure that they are an appropriate person to speak, i.e. articulate, well-informed, in good standing, not batshit insane, not actively engaged in activism against the Foundation and its projects. Guy (Help!) 16:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- This is not an enwiki resource; there is nothing enwiki administrators can or should do on this issue. If you want to raise this issue, the correct forum would be meta:Wikimedia forum or meta:Talk:Public speakers. Happy‑melon 21:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't say it was, but a lot of enWP admins are active on Meta (especially for spam management). Guy (Help!) 21:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
sites.google.com
I was looking at Special:Linksearch/sites.google.com after reading a blacklist discussion thread. That set of links bears some inspection. There are a lot of links which are blatant WP:OR or are the sole supporting link to a biography of the site owner. There are personal essays, polemics and all kinds of stuff, and a goodly number are linked in biographies. Guy (Help!) 18:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I would suggest to clean what needs cleaning, maybe replace if possible. And then see what is left. See how it was (ab?)used, get a WP:RS/N-conclusion, and consider the solutions (XLinkBot/Blacklist?). The 'free websites' are often problematic, but they certainly also contain quite some good data. I think it would depend on the ratio good/bad and use/abuse how to respond. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Requesting input from the community
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closing discussion. FlyingToaster 17:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello everyone. If we haven't met, I'm FlyingToaster. I became an admin on Wikipedia on May 18, 2009, but retired my tools three days later and have been mostly inactive in the project since then. This departure was not due to a lack of interest in the project, but because I felt that my withdraw would be best for the community. In a way I still find surprising, my role in Wikipedia became marked with contention. For those unfamiliar, my RFA and WP:BN thread should explain. I believed this contention was harmful for the community, and that by temporarily withdrawing the community could heal itself and emerge stronger.
While I have been mostly inactive on Wikipedia, I have been watching discussions, contributing to articles logged out, and speaking to some of you in person over the past few months. What I've seen is evidence that the number of current active admins is becoming increasingly insufficient for the amount of work that needs to be done. This brings me to point of this note. As some of you will remember, I'm a pretty boring user. What I enjoyed was clearing backlogs in places like CSD, AIV, and UAA. This is the work I deeply wanted to do in an admin role. I'm offering to do this again: assisting in the boring bits, bringing down the backlogs, training people to do the same, and helping out where needed and requested.
However, I have no interest in replaying the bitter conflicts that erupted before and immediately after I became an admin. In addition to my distaste for drama and belief that it harms the community, I frankly don't have the emotional energy for another RfA.
Because I resigned the tools voluntarily, I am allowed to retake them. However, I would not do so without the will of the community. So, I am asking the community to decide if they would like me back. If the community feels it can benefit from the work I would provide, I would be thrilled to return and dedicate myself to that work once again. On the other hand, if the community feels that for whatever reason my return would cause more harm than good, then I will stay away. I will accept your decision, and could do nothing less; Wikipedia is governed by community process, and all who wish to contribute are subject to it.
As a side note, I wanted to acknowledge that some hurtful things were said in the days leading to my resignation, both on Wikipedia and off. Please know that I consider all to be personally forgiven. I can't say that some of what was said did not effect me, but I've made my peace with it and moved on, and I bare no grudges in this respect. I consider no one in Wikipedia (aside from vandals) to be my enemy. I truly believe that we all want the same thing - a better encyclopedia - and that strong feelings towards this goal can easily flare passions and lead people to say things they do not mean.
So, I encourage you to weigh in with your opinion: would you have me back? While I'll be happy to clarify and explain anything if requested, I'm going to otherwise be mostly silent here. I want to know how the community feels, and thus I won't be trying to convince you either way.
Respectfully yours, FlyingToaster 19:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Discussion of FlyingToaster Adminship
If nothing else, I admire your sense of humour! We have quite sufficient Admins and certainly don't require one as ignorant of protocol and editing as you. You resigned becuse your positiion as an Admin was untenable. It remains so. Giano 19:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- If it's any consolation, FT, I think Giano being against you will probably help you gain support. Equazcion (talk) 19:36, 21 Feb 2010 (UTC)
- We are discussing an "admin" - who constantly broke and displayed a complete ignorance of copy-vio, to such an extent that the barnstars she gave her supporters were even copyvio. Then we have the small matter of IRC - do we really need to got there again? If necessary, I shall go the full distance on this matter - beleive me. Giano 19:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) x2 What you seem to be saying is you won't request re-adminnification without a positive result from a mini-RfA, here on this noticeboard. Why not just have a proper RfA? You'd probably get a better idea of the 'will of the community' from wider participation. pablohablo. 19:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- If that's the feeling that people have here, then I'll accept that but probably retire rather than re-run. The RfA process was extremely stressful and at times, vitriolic. Even though I consider myself an emotionally strong person, I don't have the strength to do it again. Additionally, my friends and family saw what the process was doing to me and have asked me to never go through it again. FlyingToaster 19:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I would echo Pablo's sentiments. I think, even if you were to gain a consensus here, your retaking the tools would be controversial. I say that without any opinion about whether you should or should not be an admin, BTW. I remember when this all blew up, but I can't recall what my opinion on it was, if I had one. I would also suggest that you edit for a while with your main account, give people a chance to see you doing things correctly, then perhaps give it a go, if you think you're up to the admittedly grueling RfA process. IronDuke 19:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- This is basically what I am trying to determine - if there is a cloud or not. Technically there isn't, but it's the bitter controversy I want to avoid. FlyingToaster 19:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I would echo Pablo's sentiments. I think, even if you were to gain a consensus here, your retaking the tools would be controversial. I say that without any opinion about whether you should or should not be an admin, BTW. I remember when this all blew up, but I can't recall what my opinion on it was, if I had one. I would also suggest that you edit for a while with your main account, give people a chance to see you doing things correctly, then perhaps give it a go, if you think you're up to the admittedly grueling RfA process. IronDuke 19:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- You plainly resigned from the tools under a cloud (in "controversial circumstances"), and would thus be required to undergo an RfA in order to regain them. Note that I was on your side in the controversy, but cannot deny that it took place! ╟─TreasuryTag►Not-content─╢ 19:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think there is a significant cloud that all hell would break loose if you simply reclaimed the bit. As much as I would like to see it happen, there are many who would not. f o x (formerly garden) 19:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- The whole idea is riciculous, the very suggestion shows how unfit you are to be an admin. Giano 20:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I suppose I would support as I did last time as I do not recall any memorable negative interactions between us since I supported the successful RfA that would alter my opinion. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 20:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- The question at hand is simple. Did FlyingToaster resign for the purpose, or with the effect, of evading scrutiny of their actions that could have led to sanctions"? If so, then her access should not be restored. If not, it should. Were any additional sanctions being considered at the time? NW (Talk) 20:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Arbcom has ruled that editors can regain surrendered tools "provided they did not leave under controversial circumstances." The policy you're quoting was (I think) written by the 'crats as a rule of thumb, but the actual basis is broader and clearly covers FT's case. As I say, I was on their side at the time, but still... ╟─TreasuryTag►draftsman─╢ 20:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- No offence FT, but no bureaucrat in their right mind would resysop you without a new RfA - You resigned under a cloud - had you not resigned, you'd have been taken to ArbCom and been desysopped by them. Even suggesting that you gave the tools up voluntarily makes me questions your judgment further - it was one of the clearest examples of resigning under a cloud. If a bureaucrat was to resysop you without an RfA, they would most probably lose their bit as well. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 20:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think an ArbCom case would have been accepted or would have lead to de-sysopping. 1.) ArbCom usually does not accept cases where no other venues were tried, 2.) ArbCom almost never desysops on the first case against someone and 3.) the reasons why FT resigned her bit were not adminship related. One cannot say that she misused her tools, so taking them away would not have been a logical sanction in a ArbCom case. I think if a case had been created about this and if it had been accepted by ArbCom, the sanctions would most likely have been editing restrictions instead. I agree though that a crat simply restoring the bit would probably cause huge amounts of drama and thus would not be advisable. Regards SoWhy 22:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Arbcom would almost certainly have taken away the tools by summary motion - they have increasingly taken the tools away where a discussion clearly indicates that the community no longer wishes the user in question to have the tools. Threads on both the bureaucrats' noticeboard and on AN showed that this was the case here. Whilst you are correct in saying that there was no misuse of tools, the major issue people had is that the RfA had just passed and if the information had come to light just a couple of days previously, the RfA would not have been successful. The most likely course of events would have been an RfC calling for FT to give up the tools and when the inevitable support for her to do so rolled in, an application to ArbCom to desysop - had the RfC actually happened, FT would certainly have been desysopped. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 23:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Clearly resigned under a cloud (at least in the technical sense that is relevant here): would have been de-adminned by force in one way or another after a lot of drama. No chance to be adminned without an RfA, and probably no chance to win a new RfA any time soon. In fact, this thread has set back the clock in my opinion. Hans Adler 20:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Ryan and Hans. This request in itself is somewhat discouraging. FT, if you want to be an admin, please spend some time making some good content contribs, then restand for RfA. People will respect that if you put in the time and effort. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 20:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Barring anything drastic to change my mind, I would have great pleasure in supporting you in a new RfA any time you wished to run for one. I also consider your post here to be a very encouraging sign, demonstrating thoughtfulness and caution rather than anything malicious. However, it seems clear from the comments here after you left that several bureaucrats agreed that a cloud existed over your resignation, and hence that immediate resysopping was not an option. I'd second the positive suggestions here to get involved with some content creation; but without any of the discouragement others have added. Happy‑melon 21:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I would suggest that you become active in editing again. This is to demonstrate your commitment and improvement and whether previous issues are sorted out. Then after a few months attempt RFA. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive540#User:FlyingToaster_RfA does not look good. I think that qualifies as "controversial circumstances". Guy (Help!) 21:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Is it me, or is there something deliciously ironic in the fact that the user who 'outed' FlyingToaster was Peter Damian Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I echo the points made above that your resignation was obviously made in controversial circumstances, and it is not the case that you can simply ask for the bit back. A full RfA is, I'm afraid, required in my view if you want to regain administrator status. But I'm mainly weighing in to make another point. Obviously the issue from last May was the fact that a number of articles you wrote had been at least partially plagiarized. Some of us spent some time cleaning up some of those articles, but as far as I know you did not and I don't think you have since then, and collectively we did not deal with all of the problems. The first article mentioned as being problematic on the original bureaucrat's noticeboard was Cluster-weighted modeling, and that seems to have the same copyright violations it did 9 months ago. I'm not sure how many others there are like that, but you really should have cleaned up any articles that violated copyright back during the initial incident, but instead you walked away. Now that you are seeking to regain adminship again you absolutely must take care of these problems, and indeed even if you decide not to continue editing here I would enjoin you to deal with the articles you created (here's the list for anyone who is interested). I'm hoping you can actually reply directly to this point, as articles with copyright violations are a serious matter and since you now understand the rules about this you really should be the one to do the cleanup, rather than leaving it to others. As a final, hopefully more encouraging point, I would really hope that you do continue to edit Wikipedia even if not as an admin, and if you address the past concerns and edit productively for awhile I would certainly be willing to consider supporting you at an RfA. Even without the bit though I think you would clearly be an asset to the project. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree and will clean up these articles no matter what. It was my plan to do this at the time, but the sheer force of acrimony against me, coupled with some users attempting to expose what they could of my offline life and work (including an attempt to contact my boss), pretty much crushed my will to continue. FlyingToaster 22:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- What complete self-pitying rubbish! "pretty much crushed my will to continue." It quite clearly did not, or you would not be back here trying to be re-adminned. Wikipedia is not some game (no matter what your IRC friends tell you) for people like you to just turn up and be given magical powers. That you can say "In a way I still find surprising, my role in Wikipedia became marked with contention." Surprising! FGS! You misunderstood the most obvious of basic rules.Whoever has encouraged you in this half-baked idea has done you a great disservice. Get on and edit some pages and make an attempt to learn what Wikipedia is all about, how you ever attracted so many votes last time - is an area best not explored even though you say "speaking to some of you in person over the past few months" Yeah, I bet you have been speaking, and I can guess where! Giano 22:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Crushed your will to continue? You're bloody lucky not to have been banned for placing the entire project in legal jeopardy! Guy (Help!) 09:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think the situation here is unique because you resigned adminship because of harrassment on- and off-wiki rather than problems with your actions as an administrator. I wanted you to stay, but I understand that you had to leave because off-wiki life was more important. So I am a lot more sympathetic than I would be in most other re-RfA's. I would have no objection to you regaining adminship as long as you're willing to face whatever your opponents have ready for you. I agree though that an RfA anytime in the foreseeable future would most likely fail because you've been largely absent so long, and your opponents' claims have not been resolved. Is it possible that Arbcom could handle this matter now and give us a decision once and for all? —Soap— 22:39, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any need for ArbCom to get involved. There's pretty much no way a bureaucrat would +sysop FlyingToaster at this point given the clear consensus (both here and at the time of the original incident) that the resignation came under controversial circumstances (it is simply not accurate to say that FT resigned solely—or I think even primarily—due to harassment, dozens of editors had called for her resignation because of the copyright problems). Of course there's nothing preventing FlyingToaster from running for RfA at some point in the future, either using this account or a new one if there are harassment/outing concerns about editing with the FT account. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 23:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- The only conduct concern regarded the sourcing of FlyingToaster's articles. That's a serious matter and one which time and work could solve. FlyingToaster, my best advice to you is to close this admin board thread and edit under your registered account for several months. Fix any old problems with your articles and create enough new ones to assure the community you've overcome that issue. After several months of that any outstanding worries will dissipate. Durova412 22:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Upon further consideration, since the situation went as far as contacting FlyingToaster's employer the best choice is probably to retire the account. As a gesture of good faith, please consider using the account's final edits to clean up any remaining problems in article space. It would be a good idea to contact experienced and trustworthy editors offsite for advice before starting a new account. Durova412 23:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate your honesty, Durova. Unfortunately, as a metapedian who highly values my friendships and relationships here, it would be impossible for me to pretend to be anyone else. FlyingToaster 04:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Upon further consideration, since the situation went as far as contacting FlyingToaster's employer the best choice is probably to retire the account. As a gesture of good faith, please consider using the account's final edits to clean up any remaining problems in article space. It would be a good idea to contact experienced and trustworthy editors offsite for advice before starting a new account. Durova412 23:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- It wasn't that i repeatedly violated copyright and chose to plagariaze, it was the contention caused by the reaction of other people! No. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bali ultimate (talk • contribs) 23:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I did not participate in either of FT's RfAs and did not know anything about the surrounding controversy until now. After looking through the ANI thread referenced by Guy it seems clear that FT resigned the admin tools under a cloud. I would take it for granted that in such a situation, regardless of whether the charges against FT were correct, a new RfA is required for resysopping, presumably after a few months of resumed activity. Of course, FT should be encouraged to come back as an active contributor. Nsk92 (talk) 23:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- I supported FT's RfA and would have supported his continuing as an admin but I must admit I find this request a bit weird. I think it quite clear that the circumstances of FTs resignation were less than salubrious and, assuming he/she had doubts about the 'cloudiness' of that, the normal way to find that out would have been to return as an editor, spend some time editing and making connections, and then asking the question. The 'I'll only return as an admin' approach is decidedly odd. --RegentsPark (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- FT: face it, you're never going to get the tools back under that username. If you do want to help on the admin side, I suggest you do what most other deadminned admins do; find a new ISP, create a new ID, contribute well for six months including article creation and participation at XfD, AIV, and some very carefully considered CSD work, and then run for RfA again. If you do it well, you might even end up on ArbCom! Note for the hard of thinking:posting contains sarcasm. Black Kite 01:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Nope. This is a disappointing request, since anyone really dedicated to the project would likely fix their old mistakes rather than focus on regaining the bit. AniMate 02:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- The trend these past 6 months within the community, and confirmed by ArbCom, is that admins found in severe breach of WP:C do not retain their bit. As long as the mess you created is still there, I don't see why this discussion is taking place. Since you vanished, we now have a process to deal with multiple copyvios, so if you want some assistance as well as demonstrate that you're serious about regaining the community's trust, file a report for yourself under WP:CCI and start mucking out. MLauba (talk) 08:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- I suggest that the best course of action for FT to take would be to cleanup any remaining issues with her articles in the main namespace, and then spend a couple of months patrolling the newpages, recent changes, and UUA (which are the areas she would plan to work in if she were an administrator), before running for adminship at RfA. I understand that I may be in a current minority here, but if FT was able to do that then I would be more than happy to support her in the RfA. Kindest regards SpitfireTally-ho! 09:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Not under this account. My suggestion would be to clear up those articles where, as mentioned above, there are issues and then retire the account. Start afresh with a new account and gain the trust of the community. If you then wish to start a RfA, notify ArbCom and perhaps a few others of your previous identity, then do so. If the connection is made, you do at least have it on record of cleaning up afterward. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- LessHeard, I understand the motivation, but your suggestion is a recipe for disaster. Imagine that FT does pass an RFA under a different account without publicly declaring the association with this account. If and when the link is revealed, I am certain any admins./arbitrators who were aware of the account history and still allowed the RFA to proceed will be asked to resign - and the adminship will be considered to be acquired fraudulently by many. I wouldn't wish such drama on anyone! Instead I'd recommend that FT continue with this account and re-earn the trust of the community and stand for an RFA in say a year's time. If instead FT decides to create a new account to have a clean start, she definitely should not run for an adminship w/o revealing the link publicly. Abecedare (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Do what MLauba said. 85.204.164.26 (talk) 15:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- I echo the statements above, and think if you are interested in returning to constructive editing that you ask User:Moonriddengirl where she needs help in addressing copyright violations, and make that your focus for a while. --Moni3 (talk) 16:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- I can answer that in MRG's absence. Open up FT's entry on WP:CCI, clean that one, and from there, there's plenty of other work left in terms of copyright cleanup to do. But there's little sense in starting to work on other contributors as long as FT's own house is not in order. MLauba (talk) 16:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Edit warring by the banned user
An urgent admin intervention is required due to edit warring by the banned user evading his block. Please see this report: [48] According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Paligun, Homered (talk · contribs) is the sock of the banned user. He made 4 rvs on a highly sensitive article Khojaly massacre and continues edit warring on other Armenia - Azerbaijan related articles. Grandmaster 19:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The issue is resolved, thanks. Grandmaster 20:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Living Persons task force meeting soon
Hi all. The Living Persons task force meeting mentioned above is starting just about thirty minutes from now (00:00 UTC). Please do make a point to attend if possible. Tell your friends too :) NW (Talk) 23:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Evening all. There's a bit of a backlog at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection - if anyone has some free time it would be good to get it cleared. It's time for bed in the UK and I'm too tired to make rational decisions! Thanks in advance, Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 23:52, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Handed in the Bit
Just a quick note that for reasons explained on my talk page, I have surrendered my bit until I have more control of my temper and impulses. This may lead to some extra work as I have asked anyone challenging or querying my admin actions to take it up with a current admin instead. I'm sorry for any extra hassle this may cause you and I'm sure it goes without saying that you are welcome to over-ride any admin action without consulting me. Spartaz Humbug! 19:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- While we have had our share of disagreements on Wikipedia, I certainly would not wish ill on someone off site. Thus, I hope that you are able to work out whatever is going on your real life and wish you the best in that endeavour. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 19:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- For what it's worth that strikes me as a mature decision and evidence of the kind of self-awareness we would hope all admins (and indeed non-admin editors) would have as they edit on Wikipedia. Taking a break seems like a good idea, and I would agree with the others who commented at WP:BN that you will be welcomed back to adminship if and when you feel it's the right thing to do. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- To me, as one who followed the original dispute closely, it is very clear that Spartaz did not resign under a cloud, and that therefore Spartaz may request a return of the bit whenever ready, it should be routine. Whatever errors were made and discussed, they were not serious in the end, and were, in fact, fixed. We do not expect administrators to be perfect. Or, at least, we shouldn't! --Abd (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- For what it's worth that strikes me as a mature decision and evidence of the kind of self-awareness we would hope all admins (and indeed non-admin editors) would have as they edit on Wikipedia. Taking a break seems like a good idea, and I would agree with the others who commented at WP:BN that you will be welcomed back to adminship if and when you feel it's the right thing to do. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Not great, but not as bad as losing the editor as well. I think you will find that the door to the mop cupboard will be left gently ajar, should the desire return. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Good call, much better than burnout. Have a nice holiday from mop and bucket crap and come back refreshed and refocused. Guy (Help!) 21:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Roger Davies plagiarism problems
Closing this, as it's not an issue for immediate admin intervention. Please direct further comments to User:Roger_Davies/Plagiarism or to RD's talkpage. Scottaka UnitAnode 02:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
In an above thread I note that claims of plagiarism are being dealt with very harshly by the community; some would say rightly so. I would be interested to have some comments on the behaviour of User:Roger Davies, who seems to have repeatedly plagiarised content despite being a MILHIST coordinator and, more worryingly, arbitrator. this edit is apparently sourcing information from pages 214 and 215 of this source. Instead, it comes directly from 214. The article reads "He learned his architectural and engineering skills while on campaign with the Janissaries, becoming expert at constructing fortifications of all kinds, as well as military infrastructure, such as roads, bridges and aqueducts", while the source says "had served in campaigns with the Sultan as a military engineer, becoming adept in the construction of fortifications and arsenals, bridges and aqueducts". Where the article says "At about the age of fifty, he was appointed as chief royal architect, applying the technical skills he had acquired in the army to the "creation of fine religious buildings" and civic structures of all kinds", the source reads "At the age of fifty he was brought into Suleiman's service to work with him closely as Royal Chief Architect, adapting his technical skills as a military engineer to the creation of fine religious buildings." This is not a problem limited to a single article, although that is one of the most recent problematic edits I've seen. The article on Fort Saganne reads "At the time it was made, it was France's most expensive film production.", while the source says "At the time, Fort Saganne was the most expensive film". The article George Nathan reads "Even though he had been turned down for Communist Party membership - either because of his 'sexual orientation'", while the source says "even though he had been refused membership in the Communist Party because of his sexual orientation." ""Comintern observers admired him for his "cool arrogance under fire".", while the source reads "admired by Soviet 'observers' for his 'cool arrogance under fire'". St Symphorien Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery is very well referenced and attributed. The article reads "A granite obelisk, constructed by the Germans, erected at the cemetery's highest point, commemorates the German and Commonwealth dead from the Battle of Mons in August 1914."; the source, on the other hand, reads "At the highest point, there is a granite obelisk ... erected by the Germans in memory of both German and British servicemen killed in the actions near Mons in August 1914". this article was plagiarised; it reads "Davies received his ticket of leave in April 1854, and was conditionally pardoned on 31 October of the same year." and "It is said he gained the name as he taught others to sing and would lead the church choir from the gallery", while source 1 says "He eventually received a ticket of leave on 20 April 1854, and was conditionally pardoned on 31 Oct. of the same year. "" and source 2 "It is said that he was called DAi'r Cantwr because he taught people to sing and led the church choir in the gallery". Not only is this obvious plagiarism, this article was a DYK, sitting on the main page for six hours for all the world to see our *cough* brilliant writing. This is an obvious problem; I'd be interested to hear how the community (or Mr Davies) intends to resolve it. Ironholds (talk) 20:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Definitely cause for concern here, though we'll need to hear from Roger before reaching firm conclusions. My initial impression is that we have some cases where Roger felt he had altered the wording sufficiently to avoid crossing the line into plagiarism (i.e. he was just drawing info from the source, citing it, and then putting it in his own words), but in fact the wording was too close to the original. I don't see "attempting to hide said plagiarism" as the only reason for recent edits to Guy Pedroncini, rather he seems to have found a better source for certain basic facts and simply cited that instead, perhaps not even remembering or realizing how closely some of the text held to the original French-language bio from Le Monde. Still that article is an obvious problem based on what I can parse from the original French source. Ultimately it's quite likely that these are good-faith errors where the editor believed they were using the sources in an acceptable manner, and it's important to find out how widespread the issue is before judging its severity. However even if these are good-faith mistakes it's still clearly a significant problem since experienced contributors (much less admins or arbitrators) need to be aware of standards for plagiarism and copyright violations. One or two errors or oversights out of thousands of edits is likely forgivable, but anything even vaguely systematic in terms of problems with plagiarism is an extremely serious issue. At this point we simply need more information. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 22:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
(ec, to Hans Adler) That might be necessary. Compare on Camp Vernet:
Durova412 00:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Why do matters like this arise just as the largest fine art museum in a city of a million people is getting from stub-class to start-class?[60]
Guy PedronciniOriginal Le Monde text: Guy Pedroncini, historien de la première guerre mondiale et biographe de Pétain, est mort mardi 11 juillet à l'âge de 82 ans. Né 17 mai 1924 à Paris, élève de l'Ecole normale supérieure de Saint-Cloud, docteur ès lettres, il enseigna à la faculté des lettres du Mans avant de rejoindre la Sorbonne en 1977 en qualité de professeur. Premier historien à avoir étudié les mutineries de 1917, Guy Pedroncini avait publié le fruit de ses recherches en 1967, Les Mutineries de 1917, aux Presses universitaires de France. Direct translation: Guy Pedroncini, historian of the First World War and biographer of Pétain, died Tuesday 11 July at the age of 82. Born 17 May 1924 in Paris, student of the Ecole normale supérieure de Saint-Cloud, doctor of letters, he taught at the faculty of humanities of Le Mans before rejoining the Sorbonne in 1977 as a teacher. First historian to have studied the mutinies of 1917, Pedronici published the fruit of his research in 1967, Les Mutineries de 1917, with Presses universitaires de France. Article text: Guy Pedroncini was a French military historian of World War I and the biographer of Philippe Pétain.[1] He was born in Paris on 17 May 1924 and died on 11 July 2006, at the age of 82.[1] Educated at the École normale supérieure at Saint-Cloud, he was a doctor of literature and taught at Le Mans university before becoming a professor at the Sorbonne university in 1977.[1] Director of the Institut d'Histoire des conflits contemporains, from 1983 to 1995, and publisher of the Revue des guerres mondiales et des conflits contemporains, Pedroncini was the first military historian to study the French army mutinies of 1917.[1] I think the article text is a reasonable paraphrase though it obviously covers many of the same facts. I have since expanded it, and based it on a much more detailed source. Roger Davies talk 00:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC) SinanThis is a very much a work in progress (which I started by adding numerous sources). Having re-read the WP:PLAGIARISM guideline, I honestly think this is legitimate paraphrase. Roger Davies talk 00:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC) George NathanThe core of this was written nearly four years ago, prior to the existence of WP:PLAGIARISM. Of course there are similarities to the original text (which is cited in both instances) but I'm unclear how to paraphrase the key information without drifting from the sourced facts or introducing vagueness. Again, had this raised on the article's (or my) talk page, I would have attended to it promptly. Roger Davies talk 00:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Fort SaganneIt did not occur to me, to be honest, that using a succinct commonplace phrase would land me in hot water for plagiarism. As it's become an issue, I have replaced it with "When it was shot, it was France's biggest-budget film to date". I don't know if that's an improvement. Alternative suggestions welcome. Roger Davies talk 00:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Motion to closeThis AN discussion should probably be closed, as productive discussion seems to be taking place that would be better suited for another forum. Further investigation should definitely take place, either in a subpage of Roger's userspace or at WP:CCI. A RfC/U might also be suitable, but I don't believe that there is anything more that needs to be done here. NW (Talk) 01:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
(ec x 2)Before closing, would someone answer the following question so it becomes a teachable moment for the rest of us? [1]= http://www.mta.org.nz/n1327.html (“As the last tyre manufacturer in Australia and New Zealand, we have all worked hard over many years to avoid today’s decision. However, the unfortunate reality is that Bridgestone Australia Ltd. can no longer commercially justify the continued operation of these facilities.) Which of the following is plagiarism: Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 01:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
This is not an appropriate matter for this noticeboard. Roger cites his sources, but on occasion his attempts at rewriting information are uncomfortably close to the originals. It's clearly not a matter of deceit or misconduct. It would have been better to work directly with Roger to address this, as he is a good faith editor interested in correcting the problems. Everyking (talk) 01:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
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IRC chat
I'm fine with the above discussion relating directly to Roger Davies' editing being archived and ultimately moved elsewhere, but I do think the issue of a "big conversation" about this issue on IRC a few days ago needs to be addressed. Aside from Roger saying he knows nothing about it (which I very much assume to be true), no one has responded to queries about this matter as yet, and while we cannot as a rule police activities in IRC, this particular incident (if true) strikes me as problematic enough to warrant at least some rough accounting from a participant or observer. While I don't want to sound like a broken record (and now risk entering that territory), I find it quite unseemly that this issue was the subject of IRC gossip days ago and the rest of us have no idea what went on there or what relationship that conversation has to this thread. I would strongly advise someone who was privy to that conversation to give us the gist of the matter here on the noticeboard (obviously without violating anyone's privacy). If it's largely innocent (as might well be the case) then I'll leave it at that, despite my deep personal disdain for IRC chitchat. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- While this is unprovable, I have never engaged in a "big conversation" on IRC about these matters. Ironholds (talk) 02:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- I guess the question would be, "Did you engage in any conversation on IRC about these matters?" Scottaka UnitAnode 03:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- If someone wants to know what conversations occur on IRC in public, they are welcome to find out for themselves by joining. If someone wants to know what conversations occur on IRC in private, that's really none of their business. And finally, if someone wants to be the judge of what is innocent (or not innocent) conversation on IRC, after they themselves have declared a personal disdain for IRC, then they really ought to think again. Really, either archive the whole lot, or keep the whole lot open. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- If IRC conversations (whether public or private)directly affect what happens on-project, they deserve to see the light of day, period. Scottaka UnitAnode 03:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Capital idea! While we're at it, lets open up the admin chan logs and Arbcom Wiki! after all, if conversations (whether public or private) directly affect what happens on-project, they deserve to see the light of day, period. Ironholds (talk) 03:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- This isn't about the sensitive RL concerns that arbcom deals with, and you damn well know it. But your dissembling says all that need be said on the matter. Scottaka UnitAnode 03:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Capital idea! While we're at it, lets open up the admin chan logs and Arbcom Wiki! after all, if conversations (whether public or private) directly affect what happens on-project, they deserve to see the light of day, period. Ironholds (talk) 03:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- You're most entitled to your opinion and you can keep demanding answers for as long as you want (much like users do with the sorts of things that are discussed on the arb mailing list); sorry, but it won't change the reality, period. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- (after edit conflict) Ncmvocalist the above replies really do not exactly strike the right tone, I think. First of all from what I can gather (and understand I literally do not know how IRC functions) all IRC chats regarding Wikipedia are "private" to the extent that I cannot go read their logs somewhere if I do not participate in IRC. Second of all there are many Wikipedians who do not want to join IRC channels (open "public" ones or "private" ones) because they do not think it is appropriate to discuss Wikipedia (a project that is built on the idea of transparent, consensus-based decision making) in off-wiki channels that cannot be viewed by all editors (the ArbCom and functionaries lists are exceptions in my view, perhaps there are others). My question here is really a simple one and I'm not remotely looking to turn it into a referendum on IRC, which is why I said "if it's largely innocent (as might well be the case) then I'll leave it at that." To clarify, by "largely innocent" I mean just idle chatter or the like that didn't really go anywhere, as opposed to a concerted effort to go after an arbitrator, or to cover-up the fact that there were maybe some problems. However it also would be an issue in my view if there was agreement on IRC that there were problems but no one bothered to actually bring it onto en.wikipedia where it really belongs. These are perfectly valid questions, and your response is precisely the kind of attitude that makes many wary of IRC ("we'll do whatever we want, join us if you're curious, otherwise shoo"). You're obviously welcome to not answer the question, but perhaps someone else will be more obliging.
- If IRC conversations (whether public or private)directly affect what happens on-project, they deserve to see the light of day, period. Scottaka UnitAnode 03:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- If someone wants to know what conversations occur on IRC in public, they are welcome to find out for themselves by joining. If someone wants to know what conversations occur on IRC in private, that's really none of their business. And finally, if someone wants to be the judge of what is innocent (or not innocent) conversation on IRC, after they themselves have declared a personal disdain for IRC, then they really ought to think again. Really, either archive the whole lot, or keep the whole lot open. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- I guess the question would be, "Did you engage in any conversation on IRC about these matters?" Scottaka UnitAnode 03:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Finally while I very much take Ironholds at their word in the comment above, Unitanode's followup is a valid question. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) It doesn't shine a very good light on our priorities if plagiarism, copyright violation, and improper sourcing somehow merit less scrutiny then what was or wasn't said on IRC. Durova412 03:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- It doesn't shine a very good light on your priorities if you don't care that there may well be concerted private attempts to go after a sitting arbitrator on IRC. As for your concerns about RD, he's trying to deal with those, and has even opened a page specifically intended for such conversations. If you have further concerns in this regard, go there please. Scottaka UnitAnode 03:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Question, what are people trying to accomplish here? RxS (talk) 03:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Speaking for myself, I'm trying to get a little clarity as to the IRC conversation that apparently happened about this matter, in my view quite possibly inappropriately. I've laid out quite specifically what I'm interested in knowing above, if there's something specifically unclear in that let me know, but I think the goal of this subthread is quite transparent—finding out if there were IRC shenanigans leading up to this AN discussion. It's a valid question, even if people who are active on IRC may not care for it.
- And to Durova, no one here (including me) has said it's more important to find out what was said on IRC than dealing with copyright, so I don't know where you got that. If you check my recent contributions you'll see I'm reviewing Roger's articles now. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- When you have nothing to substantiate your view, it does seem inappropriate that you and more particularly Unitanode, personally make every effort to continue this part of the thread, when other users don't believe it accomplishes anything useful. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Durova stated unequivocally, that there was a "big discussion" that had gone on about it on IRC. It would be very helpful if you made certain you knew the facts of the situation that we have questioned before commenting. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Then perhaps you should've spoken to Durova directly about it - the fact that you chose to prolong this noticeboard discussion speaks volumes. The same goes for your questions that are directed to Ironholds. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Unless you actually have something to add to the discussion, perhaps you'd do well to simply disengage? Scottaka UnitAnode 04:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Take your own advice before expecting others to. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Unless you actually have something to add to the discussion, perhaps you'd do well to simply disengage? Scottaka UnitAnode 04:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Then perhaps you should've spoken to Durova directly about it - the fact that you chose to prolong this noticeboard discussion speaks volumes. The same goes for your questions that are directed to Ironholds. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Durova stated unequivocally, that there was a "big discussion" that had gone on about it on IRC. It would be very helpful if you made certain you knew the facts of the situation that we have questioned before commenting. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- When you have nothing to substantiate your view, it does seem inappropriate that you and more particularly Unitanode, personally make every effort to continue this part of the thread, when other users don't believe it accomplishes anything useful. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- And to Durova, no one here (including me) has said it's more important to find out what was said on IRC than dealing with copyright, so I don't know where you got that. If you check my recent contributions you'll see I'm reviewing Roger's articles now. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- I did engage in a conversation about it on IRC - after I'd posted the thread. Any discussions involving other people are unknown to me. Ironholds (talk) 04:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- How did you become aware of the concerns about Davies' editing, then? Scottaka UnitAnode 04:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- An email sent to me, which I followed up on with some investigations of my own. Are we done with this particular witch-hunt, or would you like to look at the larger issues, such as a member of the Arbitration Committee breaking US copyright law? Ironholds (talk) 04:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Your last sentence is far from being substantiated, and you'd do very well to not make such accusations without much more substantial proof. Accusing someone of breaking the law is very serious indeed. Davies has opened a page for discussions surrounding the issues with his articles. Perhaps such inflammatory rhetoric could be contained to that page. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- No. Please leave legal talk to those with some training in it, and give Substantial similarity a read on your way out. Ironholds (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- This is veering dangerously close to making legal threats toward Davies, at least in my view. As I said, such rhetoric should probably be confined to the page that has been opened to deal with the problems identified with his articles. Doing so here is little more than a distraction from the direct questions you've been asked. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Legal threats? Please, hyperbole is not helpful. Each user has a talk page; if you want to ask them a question, use it instead of stirring up more drama. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- "dangerously close to legal threats"? "Please, hyperbole is not helpful". But to confirm: I have never intentionally made any comment which could be conceived as a legal threat to Davies, since I am a law student with the common sense of the average garden gnome. I have simply pointed out that your little IRC-discussion, which I have now resolved, is the little fish in the bloody big pond. Ironholds (talk) 04:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Legal threats? Please, hyperbole is not helpful. Each user has a talk page; if you want to ask them a question, use it instead of stirring up more drama. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- This is veering dangerously close to making legal threats toward Davies, at least in my view. As I said, such rhetoric should probably be confined to the page that has been opened to deal with the problems identified with his articles. Doing so here is little more than a distraction from the direct questions you've been asked. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Witch hunt? Please, hyperbole is not helpful. The reaction to a simple query is quite telling, for example Ncmvocalist edit warring to close this thread, which is not really something a non-admin (or indeed an admin) should be doing on WP:AN. If people don't want to answer my question they absolutely do not have to, but efforts to immediately close down a conversation about IRC (on the part of IRCers!) makes things look far worse. I'm completely open to the possibility (if not likelihood) that all that happened was idle chatter, but surely y'all understand why some might be concerned that this was discussed days ago (and I agree with Ironholds that these are serious issues) before being brought to en.wp? Again, what was the gist of the conversation? Takes about one minute to answer and then we can drop this. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- To paraphrase closely (I keed, I keed!) "ohai, you might want to take a look at [x], cos I herd you liek copyright/plagiarism work", "ooh shit, I'd help out but I've got stuff to do, DO NOT WANT". Ironholds (talk) 04:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- How convenient that your concerns have precedence because...oh that's right, you're an admin. Unitanode was acting as your agent, Bigtimepeace, when he grossly misused rollback and edit-warred [61] [62] over a disputed close? Oh, but that's right, it was a small price to pay to advance your witchhunt, instead of asking Durova directly on her talk page with minimal drama. The fact that you tried to cause maximum drama at this venue suggests what sort of politics goes about on-wiki. ChildofMidnight might have a point after all. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Do you even care how foolish you look when you claim a misclick was "grossly misus[ing]" rollback? You were point-ily trying to collapse an on-going discussion about IRC. I clicked rollback instead of undo, and almost immediately rectified. You're doing nothing here but flinging accusations and not even truly paying attention to the conversation. I'm finished replying to you, as there's truly no point. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, a misclick was it? You "misclicked" rollback while in a heated content dispute where you intended to (and did) revert anyway - gee, I really must believe that. Gosh, how foolish of me to believe otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Do you even care how foolish you look when you claim a misclick was "grossly misus[ing]" rollback? You were point-ily trying to collapse an on-going discussion about IRC. I clicked rollback instead of undo, and almost immediately rectified. You're doing nothing here but flinging accusations and not even truly paying attention to the conversation. I'm finished replying to you, as there's truly no point. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- No. Please leave legal talk to those with some training in it, and give Substantial similarity a read on your way out. Ironholds (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Your last sentence is far from being substantiated, and you'd do very well to not make such accusations without much more substantial proof. Accusing someone of breaking the law is very serious indeed. Davies has opened a page for discussions surrounding the issues with his articles. Perhaps such inflammatory rhetoric could be contained to that page. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- An email sent to me, which I followed up on with some investigations of my own. Are we done with this particular witch-hunt, or would you like to look at the larger issues, such as a member of the Arbitration Committee breaking US copyright law? Ironholds (talk) 04:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- How did you become aware of the concerns about Davies' editing, then? Scottaka UnitAnode 04:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Serioulsy? You do realize that "rollback" and "undo" are right-fucking-next-to each other, right? What the hell is your point, here? I almost immediately rolled back my own edit, and reclicked the proper button. You need to desist disengage, right now. These bad-faith accusations about misusing rollback are far out of line. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- As amusing as your hyperbole is, your misconduct including your approach throughout this entire discussion, has not vanished into thin air. I think it's quite transparent. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
A collapse/uncollapse edit war has been occurring.[63][64][65][66][67][68][69][70] It's difficult to reply to several heated comments while this is going on. Durova412 04:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's stopped now, but that certainly wasn't a good thing. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Is it allowable to state that the substantive issues themselves appear meritorious and that other problems exist, or will that be lost in a barrage of counteraccusations and sarcasm? Durova412 04:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Uncle Screwtape's guide to bringing up a plagiarism complaint on Wikipedia
- Fail to bring it up with the editor first, as WP:PLAGIARISM#Addressing the editor involved strongly suggests: contact the editor responsible, point them politely to this guideline page and ask them to provide the proper attribution.
- Hyperventilate. From the same section of the same policy: Please use care to frame concerns in an appropriate way, as an accusation of plagiarism is a serious charge.
- Hypeveentilate some more. Fail to keep in mind that close paraphrasing of cited sources is the easiest way to violate plagiarism and can be done by even concientious editors. Instead, treat the editor like an escaped felon.
- Forget that years-old edits, well before Wikipedia ever had the WP:PLAGIARISM guideline, reflect an editor's earlier levels of expertise.
- Forget that computers have the ability to both copy and paste exact words and that any researcher working on a computer will almost inevitably copy quotes and paste them somewhere. It is extremely easy for a volunteer, especially a tired one with a job, to mistake an exact quote from one's own words when the material isn't all that creative.
- Bring the matter right here, or to AN/I, regardless of whether or not it's necessary to do so. Discuss it at IRC first, to get maximum volume.
- Continue Hypeventilating. Present cases of close paraphrasing, the most minor, piddling form of plagiarism, as if the lawyers had sent someone knocking at the door with a subpoena or some committee had been convened to bar the editor from the faculty lounge.
- Exaggerate. Present acceptable paraphrasing from drably worded sources as if an artiste's precious prose had been purloined. (To take a recent example, no obit writer at a Paris newspaper gives a damn whether or not a Wikipedia article on the deceased presents information in roughly the same order, even if the -- translated! -- wording is similar. It is possible that the writer will sneer a bit before turning to the next obit. Best not to concentrate on just how low those stakes are when we're talking about someone sneering at Wikipedia.)
- Propound on the iniquity of plagiarism in general, out of all proportion to the circumstances in the case at hand. Twist your knickers tightly.
- Conflate a few mistakes over the course of years into what looks like an immediate horror.
- Take the sausage-making that is Wikipedia ever so very seriously. Take the actual feelings of actual editors (i.e., human beings) that you're actually referring to -- among their friends and acquaintances here -- with very little regard.
-- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- So bringing the issue up is to "Take the actual feelings of actual editors (i.e., human beings) that you're actually referring to -- among their friends and acquaintances here -- with very little regard.", while making sneering personal comments with little basis in reality = totally fine? Ironholds (talk) 04:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- See Rule #1. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, this totally isn't bringing it up, and obviously justifies your petty comments. Ironholds (talk) 04:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- It isn't bringing it up with the editor. Did you even attempt to contact Davies to ask him what was going on? If so, I didn't see any evidence of that. That is clearly what is rceommended. Dragging to WP:AN isn't advisable as a first step, for certain, and probably not even as a second step. It should only come here if the editor is intransigent about the issue. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Did you or Bigtimepeace even attempt to contact Durova or Ironholds to ask for further information about the IRC claims? Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- It isn't bringing it up with the editor. Did you even attempt to contact Davies to ask him what was going on? If so, I didn't see any evidence of that. That is clearly what is rceommended. Dragging to WP:AN isn't advisable as a first step, for certain, and probably not even as a second step. It should only come here if the editor is intransigent about the issue. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, this totally isn't bringing it up, and obviously justifies your petty comments. Ironholds (talk) 04:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- See Rule #1. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Unitanode, please explain:
- So bringing the issue up is to "Take the actual feelings of actual editors (i.e., human beings) that you're actually referring to -- among their friends and acquaintances here -- with very little regard.", while making sneering personal comments with little basis in reality = totally fine? Ironholds (talk) 04:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Where you attempted to contact Durova or I vis a vis IRC;
- Why my failure to speak to Davies directly voids this thread, since he's now made it clear he was already aware of the problem;
- Why my failure to speak to Davies directly excuses Barber's petty comments above? Ironholds (talk) 04:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Who cares? I'm not accusing you two of breaking the fucking law, as you are with Davies.
- It doesn't, necessarily. But, it does call into question your intentions in the matter, since you didn't bother to follow normal protocol.
- Barber's comments were direct, and had a spin to them, but they were not inaccurate.
- firstly, I've never accused Davies of making sexual advances or violating any other element of "fucking law". Secondly, as I've demonstrated, my points have been verified. Ironholds (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, you've found me out! I, a user who has never (so far as I remember) had any interaction with Davies, am trying to expose his vile and nefarious schemes! I must fall on my sword to protect the honour of my clan! Ironholds (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry? Alleging that I discussed it on IRC beforehand; false. Alleging that I've conflated "a few mistakes over several years"? False, considering the most recent problematic edit was two days ago. Ironholds (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Back on subject
Let's take the high road and stay on subject. The substantive issue which remains unresolved is that Roger admitted the improper sourcing of 20 February 2010 at Guy Pedroncini was done in response to complaints.[71] Now he has created a page in userspace to accept and address other sourcing issues. With that as his first attempt can the community quite trust him to correct other problems properly? Durova412 04:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Actualy, he admitted to rewriting the section and adding a new source, not "improper sourcing" [72]. Just a point. --InkSplotch (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- A full read of the thread would provide better context: Roger Davies had done a straight translation from Le Monde--not a paraphrase--and in response to complaints he retained basically the identical wording and attributed it to a different source. So instead of correcting the problem he compounded it. Durova412 04:59, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- The first article text is not a straight translation of the "Le Monde". I've provided a direct translation here, for comparison.
- The re-write is significantly different diff. The text which you say is substantially the same didn't appear in the Le Monde extract anyway. Roger Davies talk 05:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- (EC:oy, I worked hard on this!)Then I'd point to the section in the collapsed part above entitled Guy Pedroncini, wherein Davies provides the original source, compared to a direct translation versus his original attempt to paraphrase[73]. It holds up for me, that is, I don't think "straight translation" is a fair charcterization. Further, the article has now gone from:
- Guy Pedroncini was a French military historian of World War I and the biographer of Philippe Pétain.[1] He was born in Paris on 17 May 1924 and died on 11 July 2006, at the age of 82.[1] Educated at the École normale supérieure at Saint-Cloud, he was a doctor of literature and taught at Le Mans university before becoming a professor at the Sorbonne university in 1977.[1] Director of the Institut d'Histoire des conflits contemporains, from 1983 to 1995, and publisher of the Revue des guerres mondiales et des conflits contemporains, Pedroncini was the first military historian to study the French army mutinies of 1917.[1]
- to this
- Guy Pedroncini was a French academic and military historian specialising in the First World War, and notable as the biographer of Philippe Pétain and for his work on the French army mutinies of 1917.[1] He was born in Paris on 17 May 1924 and died on 11 July 2006, at the age of 82.[2]
- An alumnus of the prestigious École Normale Supérieure at Saint-Cloud, Pedroncini worked as a high school teacher in lycées in Tours and in Courbevoie while working on his doctoral thesis. [1] This thesis, on the French army mutinies of 1917, was published in 1967 and was the first to provide detailed statistical analysis of more than 600 courts martial, based on his then unprecedented access to the French military justice archives.[3][1] Between 1969 and his retirement in 1992, Pedroncini held professorial and decanal posts at the universities of the Sorbonne, Panthéon-Sorbonne in Paris and the University of Maine, Le Mans. He was director of the Institut d'Histoire des conflits contemporains, from 1983 to 1995, and publisher of the Revue des guerres mondiales et des conflits contemporains from 1985 to 1997.[1]
- So I don't think "basically identical wording" holds up either. For a stub article, these are pretty substantial expansions each time. --InkSplotch (talk) 05:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- A full read of the thread would provide better context: Roger Davies had done a straight translation from Le Monde--not a paraphrase--and in response to complaints he retained basically the identical wording and attributed it to a different source. So instead of correcting the problem he compounded it. Durova412 04:59, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Deletion war: Please stop this
This post related to a specific problem, dispute, user, help request, or other narrow issue, and has been moved to the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI). Please look for it on that page. Thank you.
Community Ban Proposal for Keegscee
Keegscee (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) was recently indef blocked for admitting to the use of sockpuppets/open proxies to harass other users. Since his block, he has stated that he will create a sockpuppet to evade his indef block.[74] His original comment indicated his awareness that whatever he is doing exactly is blockable[75] [76]. This user has no respect for Wikipedia's policies, and he seems to think he should be exempted from them under WP:IAR.[77] This user is currently the subject of a sockpuppet investigation.[78] I think a community ban would be our best option; we don't need users here who disrespect our policies in such ways. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 21:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- He's indefinitely blocked, he's not going to get unblocked under the present circumstances, as a blocked user any sockpuppets are subject to WP:RBI. Nothing needs to change. Guy (Help!) 21:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- If he's banned, then there's more weight to sockpuppet allegations. He's currently defacto banned, but there's always that small few who complain "he's not really banned" when socks become an issue. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 21:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- This editor has been productive in the past. The interactions he had with PCHS seemed to set him on a bad course. You guys don't get along, and eventually his behavior got him indefed. You got what you wanted, why still pursue this? Beach drifter (talk) 21:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- WP:ABF? Honestly, I don't seek to get anyone indefed unless there's a good reason; don't forget that I gave this user a barnstar once. It's unacceptable, however, when users violate policy and thumb their nose at Wikipedia's policies and procedures as he's done. If he wants to come back, he needs to cough up exactly what he's been doing with those proxies, apologize, promise not to do it again, and do all of this with his main account. Anyone remember what happened with User:MisterWiki? PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 22:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- If he's banned, then there's more weight to sockpuppet allegations. He's currently defacto banned, but there's always that small few who complain "he's not really banned" when socks become an issue. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 21:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
The last ban discussion arising out of a related matter produced days of unnecessary drama. We are not going to do that again, and accordingly, this discussion is hereby terminated, unless and until there is a significant worsening of the situation, which hopefully there will not be. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm, what "last ban discussion?" I'm confused. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 23:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
flagged revisions when?
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
or will we have to cope with garbage like these (which goes undetected on a high profile page): [79], [80], [81]. Dr. Loosmark 22:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
- But it didn't go undeteced, it was reverted within 6 minutes of the first vandal edit. A later edit was reverted immediately. This is run-of-the-mill vandalism, so why bring it up here? It's also not BLP related which is how most people are interested in using flagged revisions. This also is really not the place to discuss flagged revisions, though I earlier noticed a threat about this here if you are interested. Suggest this be marked resolved unless there is something I'm missing that needs discussion. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 22:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Request for your comments at Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/RfC
Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/RfC went live today, and your comments are invited. For what it is worth, I personally do not see your !vote or expressed opinions as a conflict of interest despite the obvious fact that this is a proposal that impacts administrators directly. In any case, I believe the community needs to know the thoughts of a goodly cross-section of administrators regarding this RfC proposal.
I also urge a discussion regarding this RfC here, on this page. Thanks, Jusdafax 01:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Community ban proposal: JI Hawkins
I'm proposing a community ban for JI Hawkins (talk · contribs), aka the "Sanders vandal", for severe disruption and to support AIV reporting of any new sockpuppets.
Since about November, JI Hawkins has been acting as if under a compulsion (The D&D kind, not the dict-def) to alert people to a nonexistent government conspiracy ripped out of a bad X-Files script (which, ironically, is one of his common targets), concerning alien colonization, 2012 (I assume the end of the Mayan calendar specifically), Colonel Sanders, the Men in Black, Adam Sandler, and faked deaths. He has been socking extensively since then, and standard methods are proving very difficult to use because he is evading every single hardblock and hardrangeblock placed upon him to stem his disruption (largely because he's abusing Research in Motion's BlackBerry ranges). There currently exists a filter to try and check his progress, but this, like the rangeblocks, is consistently dodged by him. He presently has a section at WP:LTA. I haven't attempted an abuse report yet because WP:ABUSE is in eternal limbo. —Jeremy (v^_^v Boribori!) 05:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Links to Confirmed socks and Suspected socks. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) Support as one of the involved parties that has been tracking this individual for some time. It has been extremely disruptive, not supportive of our goal of building an encyclopedia, and obvious that the individual understands that his edits are not constructive due to his efforts at evading the filter that has been put in place. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 05:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)