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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

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Administrative discussions

ANI thread concerning Yasuke

(Initiated 37 days ago on 2 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1162 § Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues has continued to grow, including significant portions of content discussion (especially since Talk:Yasuke was ec-protected) and accusations of BLP violations, among other problems. Could probably be handled one sub-discussion at a time. --JBL (talk) 17:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Closure review of The Telegraph RfC

(Initiated 31 days ago on 9 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard § RfC closure review request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues's discussion seems to have died down. Hopefully I've put this in the correct section. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is a huge headache. I'll keep working on it as I have time, but if somebody else wants to close this before I do, I won't complain. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 02:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

you could put the draft on the discusssions about discussions page, WP:DfD? Tom B (talk) 09:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Nah, I know what the result should be, I just need to write an explanatory statement. That will happen this weekend, Lord willing. Thanks for the resource though, I had no idea that existed. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:54, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Compassionate727. I want to make sure this is still on your radar. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and it's very nearly done. There's no reason I shouldn't finish it tomorrow, if not tonight. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done. I fear I'm going to ruffle some feathers with that, but I do believe it both the correct outcome and the most inoffensive one. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

...why do you think the most inoffensive option is to re-close the original RFC to Option 1? What's your evidence that was the consensus of that original RFC? Loki (talk) 23:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election#RfC: Inclusion of parties in the Infobox

(Initiated 32 days ago on 8 July 2024). Ready for closing, last !vote was 12 July by looks of it. CNC (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

RFA2024, Phase II discussions

Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

• (Initiated 99 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
• (Initiated 96 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
• (Initiated 96 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA

Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Bumping this as an important discussion very much in need of and very much overdue for a formal closure. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... designated RfA monitors (at least in part). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done designated RfA monitors. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Gaza genocide#RfC on the inclusion on the BU Today article in the lede

(Initiated 48 days ago on 22 June 2024) nableezy - 17:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Titles of European monarchs

(Initiated 47 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

(Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Anti-Defamation League#RfC: Wikipedia reliability section

(Initiated 39 days ago on 30 June 2024) - Note: Part of the article and talk page are considered to be a contentious topic, including this RfC. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 447#Reliability_of_Thomas_Lockley

(Initiated 37 days ago on 2 July 2024) - The original topic (Lockley's book, "African Samurai: The True Story of Yasuke, a Legendary Black Warrior in Feudal Japan") has not been the focus of discussion since the first few days of the RFC when it seemed to reach a concensus. The book in question is no longer cited by the Yasuke page and has been replaced by several other sources of higher quality. Since then the subject of the RSN has shifted to an extension of Talk:Yasuke and has seen many SPA one post accounts hijack the discussion on the source to commit BLP violations towards Thomas Lockley almost exclusively citing Twitter. Given that the general discussion that was occuring has shifted back to [Talk:Yasuke] as well as the continued uptick in SPA's committing NOTHERE and BLP violations on the RSN, as well as the source in question is no longer being used - I think closure is reasonable. Relm (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hermann_Göring#Rfc_for_Herman_Göring's_Lede_Image_(2024)

(Initiated 36 days ago on 4 July 2024) Discussion is ready to be closed. Nemov (talk) 01:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity#Nikola_Tesla_birthplace_,_review_after_10_years

(Initiated 35 days ago on 5 July 2024) This is a contentious issue, so I would like to ask for an uninvolved editor to properly close. Please have consideration to each argument and provide an explanation how each argument and source was considered. People have strong opinions on this issue so please take consideration if their statements and claims are accompanied by quotes from sources and whether WP guidelines are followed. We need to resolve this question based on sources and not opinions, since it was discussed multiple times over the years. Trimpops2 (talk) 23:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Edit_filter_manager#RfC about the status of this page

(Initiated 33 days ago on 6 July 2024) Discussion is fairly simple but as this is a policy discussion it should likely receive uninvolved closure. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 04:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:La France Insoumise#RfC: How should the political position of La France Insoumise be described?

(Initiated 32 days ago on 7 July 2024) Discussion has already died down and the 30 days have elapsed. Uninvolved closure is requested. Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: National Post

(Initiated 31 days ago on 8 July 2024) Discussion has mostly died down in recent days. Uninvolved closure is requested. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a pretty clear SNOW close to me. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Didn't need a formal closure, but  Done anyway. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Proposal to revise CSD R3

(Initiated 31 days ago on 9 July 2024) Poster withdrew the RfC but due to the language used, I think a summary by an WP:UNINVOLVED editor would be preferable. Nickps (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hosni_Mubarak#Rfc_for_lede_image_for_Hosni_Mubarak

(Initiated 29 days ago on 10 July 2024) This is ready to close. Nemov (talk) 19:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of South Korean girl groups#RfC for whether there should be an "end date" on active groups just because they don't have activity

(Initiated 29 days ago on 11 July 2024) Participants requested for proper closure. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 18:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Total
CfD	0	0	3	0	3
TfD	0	0	6	0	6
MfD	0	0	5	1	6
FfD	0	0	0	0	0
RfD	0	0	84	10	94
AfD	0	0	0	0	0

Other types of closing requests

Talk:There was no such thing as Palestinians#Merge to Golda Meir?

(Initiated 253 days ago on 29 November 2023) Discussion started 29 November 2023. Last comment 25 July 2024. TarnishedPath^talk 00:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Requested_move_24_May_2024

(Initiated 76 days ago on 24 May 2024) Originally closed 3 June 2024, relisted following move review on 17 June 2024 (34 days ago). Last comment was only 2 days ago, but comments have been trickling in pretty slowly for weeks. Likely requires a decently experienced closer. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 01:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 194#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

(Initiated 73 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 71 days ago on 30 May 2024) Contentious merge discussion requiring uninvolved closer. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 Nuseirat_rescue operation#Proposed_merge_of_Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre_into_2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation

(Initiated 61 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions#Split proposal

(Initiated 32 days ago on 8 July 2024) – Editors would feel more comfortable if an uninvolved closer provided a clear statement about whether a consensus to WP:SPLIT exists, and (if so) whether to split this list into two or three lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Range blocks

Could an admin familiar with range blocks take a look at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Broadway Hoaxer and see if anything can be done with blocking this person? I'm concerned that what we're catching of his vandalism might be the tip of the iceberg, and articles are being distorted with his misinformation without being discovered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:39, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

From which IPs has this vandal most recently been active? AGK [•] 20:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

• 71.183.177.19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 71.183.182.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 96.224.19.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 96.224.16.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 96.224.17.19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

are some that I am aware of. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:13, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Also

• 71.183.183.250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and
• 71.183.191.7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Knowing nothing whatsoever about filter construction: is it possible to block certain key words only if they came from 71. or 96. addresses? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

The latest IP used by this vandal is:

• 71.183.177.250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Only two edits so far, but it's clearly him. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about the edit filter question, so I've asked here. Shadowjams (talk) 04:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Apparently the answer is yes, you can have edit filters limited to IP ranges. Shadowjams (talk) 05:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Palestine-Israeli sanctions and 1RR parole "rule"

Golan Heights (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

ANEW report

I need some help from those more knowledgeable about these sanctions and what discretion admins have to impose extra restrictions on articles (not editors). Apparently, in 2010, User:WGFinley, whom I've contacted but who hasn't been around for a couple of months due to more exciting things in his personal life, imposed an extra restriction on the Golan Heights article that not only limits editors to 1RR (typical) but also requires every content reversion to be explained on the article talk page. Guy added a separate notice to that effect on the talk page and changed the edit notice so editors are also warned when they edit the article.

My first question is can Guy do that? If the answer is yes, how is such a restriction removed? I'm struggling to see what authority an admin has to impose a restriction on an article that doesn't appear to have been supported by the ArbCom decision itself. Imposing it on editors, which has been done, makes sense to me, but much less so on articles. It's a fairly onerous restriction on all editors who edit that article. I seriously doubt it's being followed or that editors are being even-handedly sanctioned for not heeding it, but I haven't researched that. Even assuming we (admins) have the discretion to do such a thing, there must be some guidelines as to when it's appropriate and when it's not. After all, here, it's been in place for over 3 years. Ironically, the editor who's been accused of violating it was at one time under such a restriction as an editor, but that restriction expired (or was lifted).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

No, he can't. That's not the intent of discretionary sanctions -- I'd fix the editnotice if I could but I ain't got the bits for it. NE Ent 02:53, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll investigate the specifics, but those sorts of restrictions can sometimes be implemented as a result of AE threads; we did it some months ago at Nagorno-Karabakh. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

It was done as arbitration enforcement in this thread. It can be removed via a thread at WP:AE. MBisanz ^talk 04:51, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Such restrictions have been allowed for some time. Mass killings under Communist regimes was actually placed under article-specific restrictions through AE. The success rate and practicality of these more nuanced restrictions would be another matter for discussion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:20, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, ArbCom has been asked several times about such restrictions, and they have, without exception, been seen as valid uses of the discretionary sanctions system. Whether this one would be upheld if appealed to AE or the Committee I do not know, but the idea of article-level sanctions is pretty much been settled. Courcelles 06:18, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• I've notified Guy both on his talk page and by email. He still participates in MedCom mailing list discussions, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he drops by to leave a message. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 09:09, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for doing that; I should have at least notified him on his talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:45, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• So, let's see if I can crystallize this a bit based on the above comments:

1. Any admin can impose an article-level sanction like the one Guy did.
2. Such a sanction can be appealed to ArbCom.
3. Can an admin remove such a sanction without going to ArbCom, or would that be viewed in the same way as unblocking a user who was sanctioned?
4. Are there any guidelines for imposing such a sanction or for the duration of the sanction?

--Bbb23 (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

The standard rules governing appeals of AE sanctions apply; you can either go to ArbCom or try to get "a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" to lift the sanction.

There is no special guideline for article-level sanctions that I'm aware of. T. Canens (talk) 16:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Timotheus, particularly for the link. The lack of a guideline is disturbing because I don't even know how to justify a request to terminate the additional restriction if there's no guideline for its imposition in the first instance. Perhaps a trip to AE will clarify some of these problems.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• The discretionary sanction authorization states "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working" (emphasis mine). It does not say an uninvolved administrator can make up new rules for a page.
• The procedures say "Best practice includes seeking additional input prior to applying a novel sanction or when a reasonable, uninvolved editor may question whether the sanction is within the scope of the relevant case;" -- is there any evidence this was done?
• A cursory review of article history and talk history shows the "must use talk page" restriction is clearly not being followed. Drawing a line in the sand and then not enforcing breeds contempt, not respect. And Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Reversal_of_enforcement_actions clearly states it can be overturned by consensus here (WP:AN).
• Given the widespread ignoring of the restriction, how can an editor reasonably file a AE request for enforcement without running afoul of the "unclean hands" warning at AE? NE Ent 20:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• @Ent, I tend to agree with everything you've said, although I confess that I haven't macheted my way through the thicket of policy, practice, arbitration decisions, etc. What enforcement action would we be overturning if we had a consensus here? Guy's? If so, Timotheus already made that point. Perhaps seeking clarification would be a better way to go. I'm musing as much as anything because connecting the dots in these things gives me a headache.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• I will say that one of the biggest problems with this sanction has been editors pushing for enforcement without clearly notifying the party violating the restriction. Nowhere do I see that Gilabrand was ever made aware of this article-specific restriction. However, Gilabrand does appear to have violated the standard ARBPIA 1RR on another article ([1] [2]).--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:55, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• In theory, one doesn't have to be specifically warned. That said, it is on the article talk page, just as the other restrictions are, and it pops up in an edit notice box when you edit the article, meaning there is as much warning as there is for the 1RR restriction itself.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:58, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• The edit notice isn't markedly different from the standard 1RR edit notice. Editors who are already aware of the 1RR are likely to ignore the notice, thinking it is just the standard one. Personally, I find that quite a lot of editors tend to not pay attention to edit notices. My view is that such notices should not be taken the same as a user talk page notification, which is much less likely to be ignored.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:08, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Gilabrand personally received a notice with the rules:[3]--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:37, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I did not see that.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:43, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness is a walking historical reference for this stuff. It's impressive and almost scary. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• In any event, based on your allegations that Gilabrand violated 1RR elsewhere, I have notified them of this discussion.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:12, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• Having read some twenty line truth table edit notices on user talk pages -- If it's Tuesday and it's about an image, I'll reply on your page, but on Wednesday ... -- I pretty much ignore them. NE Ent 22:21, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• Well, looking further, it seems Gilabrand has been previously sanctioned in a very similar fashion and has been notified of the specific restriction on the Golan Heights article, in addition to recently violating 1RR on another article. I think maybe this should have been taken to AE given that the article-specific restriction is not a simple 1RR, but there does appear to be sufficient cause for action against Gilabrand. Any administrator reviewing this discussion could take action per the discretionary sanctions.-The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• There is a fairly technical reading of the discretionary sanctions provisions that allows such sanctions, as explained in Kirill's comment in this old request for clarification.

  Sanctions like this are usually lifted either when they are no longer necessary or if they have proven unworkable.

  I'd prefer any complaint against Gilabrand to be filed at AE so that we have a more orderly presentation than this mess of a thread. T. Canens (talk) 01:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• However in the same thread Risker notes "Exercise of article-based 1-RR sanctions need to be monitored closely" and Carcharoth noted "articles with discretionary sanctions on them should be periodically reviewed to see if the sanctions have served their purpose and how to move forward, as the intention was never to have discretionary sanction in place indefinitely," As the restriction is two years old it's reasonable to address whether the sanction should remain in place. NE Ent 02:58, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• It might be worth noting that the current wording of the standard discretionary sanctions does allow "any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project" which does not require as much of a technical stretch of the older wording. That said, Risker's caveat that it is wise to periodically review article-level sanctions for continued relevance is also appropriate. — Coren ^(talk) 03:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Are there any admins that wish to monitor the discussion requirement at Talk:Golan Heights? At present the complete edit notice says:

In accordance with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions, editors of this article are restricted to 1 revert per 24 hours and MUST explain the revert on the talk page. Violations of this restriction will lead to blocks.

Though I see no problem with this being a valid restriction which an admin could impose under discretionary sanctions, I'm not sure it is doing any good. People keep forgetting that this restriction exists. Why not abolish it for now. A consensus here (of uninvolved editors) could lift the restriction. Any admin could reimpose it in the future if they are persuaded there is a need. AE retains plenty of authority to deal with edit-warring at Golan Heights if it is found to be a problem. EdJohnston (talk) 04:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• I don't find the ArbCom clarification decision on the Armenian article to be very satisfying. Although the arbitrators discuss the 1RR restriction imposed by the admin (back in 2008 - the decision was in 2010), it was not just a 1RR restriction but also a requirement, as in the Golan Heights article, that any reverter explain their revert on the talk page. Yet the arbitrators don't mention that. In addition, although there is a "warning" on the article talk page, the edit notice on the Armenian article doesn't include a warning about the explanation requirement. And those restrictions have now been in place for 4 years - has anyone even checked whether the talk page explanation requirement is being enforced?

I agree with Ed. We should remove the explanation restriction imposed at Golan Heights. There seems to be no current justification for it, and enforcement appears to be completely uneven. I do a lot of closures at ANEW, and I'm not at all happy with the inherent unfairness of blocking one editor for failing to explain, yet allowing so many other editors to do the same thing but not be sanctioned. It's already hard enough looking through the edit history of these articles, which is often heavy, because I don't look just at the conduct of the person reported but at the conduct of other editors as well (that's typical in any ANEW report).--Bbb23 (talk) 15:08, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I also agree with Ed that we should remove the explanation restriction as no longer being necessary or reasonable to maintain the article's integrity. MBisanz ^talk 15:43, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to lift Golan Heights restriction

The restriction on the Golan Heights article requiring that editors explain reverts on the talk page is lifted. General 1RR restriction on article imposed by the ARBPIA case is unaffected.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:09, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support There are no edit wars there so its not necessary.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:27, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support as above. Note that User:EdJohnston and User:Mbisanz appear to support removal of the restriction.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support per my previous comments above.NE Ent 22:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support per my comments above. EdJohnston (talk) 14:54, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

User:Chutznik asking for an unban (basically)

Although he had large number of socks in the past he says he has been clean in the mean time, and claims that he complied with WP:OFFER. His unblock request has been pending for a while. I think it's best that this is dealt with by the community. Thoughts? Tijfo098 (talk) 00:13, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• A good read of his talk page and the self admitted obsession with creating multiple accounts should be taken into account before reaching any conclusions here. 'Clean' is only becuse he appears to have respected his block, but his arguments for unblock, to me at least, are unconvincing. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• It's worth waiting to see the outcome of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Shaz0t, as that has an obvious bearing here. Uncle G (talk) 02:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
  • A check user found them unrelated. Tijfo098 (talk) 01:03, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
• Also the editor's triumphant tone in declaring his panoply of socks on Wikipedia Review (see the SPI for links), as well as his less celebratory but virtually unrepentant comment about them on his talk page does not lead me to believe that he is trustworthy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• Lacking any evidence he has not followed the terms of the standard offer, unblock. NE Ent 03:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
  • That's not how it works, the standard offer calls for some positive evidence of value and trustworthiness, such as editing on another project, to show that the editor will contribute productively in the future if he is unbanned. If it worked the way you seemed think it does, all any banned editor would have to do is take a 6 month vacation from editing and *bam* they'd be allowed back in automatically. That trvializes the community's difficult decision to ban someone and turns every ban into a de facto 6-month block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:OFFER#The_standard_offer.

The standard offer

It's simple:

1. Wait six months without sockpuppetry.
2. Promise to avoid the behavior that led to the block/ban.
3. Don't create any extraordinary reasons to object to a return.

• The requirement/suggestion to work on another project was removed a long time ago. NE Ent 12:06, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• Then the essay is next to useless, as the only "evidence" we have to go by is the word of the editor involved, who is (obviously) an interested party. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:32, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• Note that WP:OFFER is an essay, and one that not all editors agree with (and probably even less do in its watered down version). Fram (talk) 12:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, Chutznik is under the mistaken impression that the offer automatically grants them a review at the end of 6 months, in a sort of "I did my part, now you do yours" type of bargain and the fact that they're fighting tooth and nail for his interpretation to be the interpretation isn't exactly the sort of attitutde that would encourage me to say "sure, let him back in". Blackmane (talk) 13:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• Anyone who wants to comment on this unblock might take a look at User talk:Chutznik#Standard offer unblock request. If he would take a break from the legalisms of the unblock process and explain what he intends to do differently in the future, things might be more promising for him. This editor did a lot of good work but also some strange things. A sincere moment of reflection on his past problems would be very welcome. His belief that he should be allowed back until the exact moment that he starts to mess up again is unconvincing. He should explain what he'll do differently so he doesn't mess up again. If he has plans for any content work he should mention that. EdJohnston (talk) 18:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support unban - Bans are pointless. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 19:21, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

  Are you ever going to explain why they are pointless? And for the record, I don't believe this user is technically banned. AutomaticStrikeout 01:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

  Regardless of how this discussion ends, we'll have a clear ban situation when this concludes: either we'll end up with an unblock decision, or the community's refusal to permit an unblock will be interpreted as a community ban, per WP:CBAN. Nyttend (talk) 02:52, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• Nope We don't need to start all this nonsense all over again. Jtrainor (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per the section that EdJohnston linked. These comments indicate that he's not doing this in complete good faith and that an unblock will likely be succeeded by more problems very quickly. Nyttend (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, this user has very problematic past and his recent unblock indicates that there is a considerable chance that he will return to his old ways if unblocked. Max Semenik (talk) 23:12, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, sure we might say we can always re-ban/block if old behavior resumes, but I'm not sure it's that easy. AutomaticStrikeout 01:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose based on the behavior I'm seeing on his talk page. Apologies and prostration are not necessary, but recognizing that it's possible to be wrong and it's useful to listen to other people when they try to help you are. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm reading the unblock request right now and I couldn't stomach half of all those blocky messages he's making. One thing's for sure, he's crying "It's so unfair!" in most of them and the fact that there was a big-wall unblock request a month ago and his rebuttals to Boing!'s rejecting of it doesn't look good for his case. --Eaglestorm (talk) 04:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

User impersonating Admin

User:BJSelavkaotheus Canens has copied and pasted User:Timotheus Canens's entire userpage and is making nonsensical edits to pages. yonnie (talk) 21:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Blocked. Let's see what, if anything, they have to say for themselves. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:21, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

BJSelavkaotheus Canens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for reference §FreeRangeFrog 00:11, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe this user is vandalizing my userpage from an anonymous IP. See here. I have left a warning on their talkpage - User talk:207.224.192.66 yonnie (talk) 01:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Ooh, that was pretty nasty stuff, I zapped it. You should take it as a sign that you did something right when some coward attacks you like that. Whatever it is you are doing keep it up. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Palestinian incitement

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Somthing should be done about this article. It was created on November 18 and has a contentious history, including total blanking of the article by one experienced editor. Should it be speedily deleted as an attack page? Should it be AfDed? Should it be allowed to exist. The pro-Israeli bias despite some qualifiers is rather remarkable. I particularly like this qualifier in the lead: "According to the Israeli government (who are of course in no position to comment with any degree of credibility) ..." I have no idea who added the parenthetical, but regardless of its possible merit, it's not what I would call encyclopedic. (I'm not notifying anyone at this point.)--Bbb23 (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I've locked the article for 3 days because of the continuing battles; most everyone is ignoring the Arab-Israeli restrictions that apply to the article, and the reversions are fast and furious.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for forgetting about 1RR, but I stand by my blanking, and later edit, per WP:IAR. The article was nothing but propaganda in support from a particularly obnoxious right-wing pro-Israeli perspective which goes out of its way to portray Palestinians as either conspiratorial schemers or gullible dupes, and utterly refuses to acknowledge their basic humanity. Garbage like this simply doesn't belong on Wikipedia, and if there was any real effort to enforce rules regarding this being an encyclopaedia rather than a shithouse wall, those responsible for such bigoted propaganda would have been banned years ago. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:51, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Take it to AfD and let the thing run its course. §FreeRangeFrog 23:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

...And after it is deleted, the same crowd will create another 'article' pushing the same propaganda... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)}}

At which point it could be deleted again? Or salted? I don't understand how/why/when you believed blanking the article would accomplish anything. -- tariqabjotu 23:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Looks to me like this article is mostly about indoctrination/propaganda in the Arab-Israeli conflict and I imagine there would be more than enough information about Israeli activities to balance out an article covering that broader subject.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:08, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with the protection. There's basically one persistent revert-warrior and Andy's violation of the 1RR, both of which should be acknowledged -- certainly with a block for the former, and possibly with another for the latter. -- tariqabjotu 23:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you would identify who you think is the "revert-warrior"; if you mean EditorInChiefSD, they were already blocked before I locked the article based on pervasive misconduct across many P-A articles. It would also be helpful if you would express an opinion as to whether the article should be kept. I tend to disagree witih Devil's Advocate, although it's not clear if they are saying that it could be a legitimate article or it is a legitimate article, two very different things. Andy's citation to WP:IAR makes no sense. IAR arguably works when there is no existing mechanism to protect the integrity of the project. Here, it would be straightforward for Andy to tag it for speedy deletion if he thinks it qualifies.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:53, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

My position is basically that, with a lot of work, the content could be used for a quality article under a different name. I suspect that if we take this to AfD the consensus will eventually become "keep, but needs improvement to address neutrality issues" and essentially waste time. Although, one could say that putting something through AfD can have the effect of compelling improvement, but I wouldn't suggest using it that way.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:07, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Wait, so you blocked EditorInChiefSD (talk · contribs) and still thought it was necessary to protect the article? I can't understand why you thought protecting the article would accomplish anything. It doesn't matter whether I feel the article should be kept or not; protecting an article and deciding on the Administrator's noticeboard is not how it should be decided. Blanking articles is not how it's done either. You should know that, and just as in any other administrative action, you should not allow your agreement or disagreement with one party guide your actions. WP:ARBPIA restrictions are in effect here, just as in any other Israel-Palestine article, and they ought to followed and enforced. -- tariqabjotu 02:39, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Totally agree with Andy the Grump, it is not encyclopedic, I'm not familiar with the term but I think it is, a term I saw above, an 'attack page' - is this phenomenon the subject of discussion in RS? do I hear it on the BBC? No - it is the equivalent of a propaganda leaflet drop - it is outright propaganda - unsubtle at that - "The article was nothing but propaganda in support from a particularly obnoxious right-wing pro-Israeli perspective which goes out of its way to portray Palestinians as either conspiratorial schemers or gullible dupes, and utterly refuses to acknowledge their basic humanity. Garbage like this simply doesn't belong on Wikipedia," - yes, thats what I want to say. How could it be used for a quality article, devils advocate?- look at the sources - this is propaganda. Sayerslle (talk) 00:27, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Which of the sources are propaganda? Associated Press, Agence France Presse, The New York Times, Jerusalem Post, BBC, Haaretz, Jerusalem Post, etc.? Plot Spoiler (talk) 04:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• Apparently, the article has received some off-wiki attention. I will be going off-wiki soon (NOT to post to the blog). If there is a consensus among administrators that the article should be unlocked for whatever reason, I have no objection.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

A note to everyone — blocks for 3RR aren't appropriate when the page in question has been fully protected, since blocks are preventative, not punitive. Nobody's going to be able to continue reverting, except for admins, and any admins who engage in revert-warring here will need an Arbcom case, not just a simple block. Nyttend (talk) 01:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I never suggested that both the protection and a block should be applied, although that's effectively what's happened here. An editor has been blocked for disruption (although not solely on this article) and protection has been applied to one of the articles he was disrupting. Without this editor, though, there's really nothing warranting protecting here. If you accept Andy's IAR claim, then there's nothing else to do but encourage him to file an AfD. If you don't, he should be blocked for violating the 1RR. Either way, protection was not the right move. -- tariqabjotu 02:39, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

Looks like about everyone is objecting to the current state of things. Could we move it to a non-mainspace title, such as Talk:Peace process in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict/Palestinian incitement? This might be able to resolve both the "bad but saveable" and the "horribly POV" objections, letting people fix it without presenting readers with badly biassed material. Nyttend (talk) 00:48, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you agree with D-A that it's fixable? Just curious what your views are. There is already an article Peace process in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, and there may be others similar to that - I'm not an expert in this area (thank goodness), and I'd have to hunt them down. BTW, your typo/unintentional play on words is amusing ("biassed").--Bbb23 (talk) 01:03, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

No opinion on that; I figured that we could move it as an immediate fix to the biggest problem of problematic content, since that would give us more time to decide what to do with it since it's away from public view. I'm willing to take the large-scale dispute (both in the page history and at this page) as evidence that many many people strongly object to the current contents of the page. I've looked at nothing except for the intro. Meanwhile, "biassed" wasn't a typo; see OED, which gives it as an alternate spelling. Hadn't thought of "bi-assed", though :-) Nyttend (talk) 01:21, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Confound those Brits.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:31, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I think the more closely-related article would be Public diplomacy (Israel), a less slanted and less developed article on the Israeli media campaign. There is a tangentially-related article called Media coverage of the Arab–Israeli conflict, but that one is more about the external view and is in a much worse state in terms of quality writing than the aforementioned article or the one we are discussing.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean merging/redirecting this article there, or moving it to Talk:Public diplomacy (Israel)/Palestinian incitement? Nyttend (talk) 02:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

As the original creator of the page I'd appreciate being involved in the discussions. This subject clearly merits its own page, given the copious references that address the issue directly - and I have barely scratched the surface. I implore admins and others not to give into WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Please judge the article on its own merits. It is very well-sourced to only reliable sources. Plot Spoiler (talk) 04:22, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Can we also address this off-wiki canvassing by User:Bali ultimate on Twitter [4]?

Saying, "Hey! Look at this article!" is not canvassing, dude.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:30, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

DA, I have to say I find your comments attribute to you here a bit troubling and un-neutral: [5]. User:Bali ultimate isn't too kind either: "'Plot Spoiler' is in fact one of Wikipedia's longterm propagandists for maximalist, far-right Israeli positions. He's probably one of the five most active in that coordinated little propaganda effort." Plot Spoiler (talk) 04:38, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Upset because he's only ranked you fifth? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Talk about a fishing expedition. Anyway, the correct forum for this is AfD. I've removed the protection from the article, allowing anyone to add an AfD tag if desired. As I stated above, there was no reason for protection as the primary edit-warrior was already blocked, by Bbb23 no less. If someone wants this deleted, file an AfD request. I don't know why this is a matter for WP:AN or why this requires emergency administrator assistance. -- tariqabjotu 04:52, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

So much for consensus. Don't forget to hand out blocks if anyone violates WP:1RR. Good night, all.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I must have missed the place where there was consensus for your protection. And where there's consensus for blocking an edit warrior and protecting the article he was reverting on. I also must have missed the part where you said you were only looking for comments from people who agreed with you. Note that the removal of protection still doesn't stop extrajudicial deletion, if that's what you're hoping for. -- tariqabjotu 05:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually flattered I'm ranked anywhere in his delusional fantasy-land. Sorry about your grumpiness. Maybe this article I created recently will cheer you up: Alcohol enema. You don't have to try it yourself... Plot Spoiler (talk) 04:55, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't really suggesting any specific action. My point was just to note that with this article we have a rather slanted take on Palestinian propaganda efforts, while the article I mentioned is a more balanced take on Israeli propaganda efforts. Certainly, I could see putting these two articles together as a single article on propaganda in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:27, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Per reliable sources, incitement is a key Israeli concern in the peace process. It is not an equivalent concern on both sides. Plot Spoiler (talk) 04:32, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Per reliable sources, there have been concerted efforts by pro-Israeli activists to subvert Wikipedia policy by inserting propaganda into articles... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:43, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Note: I have now nominated the 'article' for deletion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Advice?

I left the following message for user:Plot Spoiler on their talk page under the heading, "Tendentious editing".[6]

Hello.

I have some concerns with your editing. You mostly edit content about Jews, Judaism and Israel, and Muslims, Islam and Palestine, almost always slanting content in favour of the former and against the latter (such as Palestinian incitement). On your rare excursions outside that area, you have created or expanded six articles about commercial products or organisations, five of which were biased. (I have no problem with Kiehl's). In all but one of the latter you created promotional puff-pieces or puffed-up existing articles. The exception was the Warwick New York Hotel, where you inserted a lengthy section (longer than all of the remainder of the article) blaming them for renting a room to the Iranian prime minister; that is, pillorying them for not taking the political stand you would have preferred.

If you are not already, you should make yourself familiar with Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Noleander.

This kind of behaviour brings the encyclopedia into disrepute and creates a lot of work for others. Would you please acknowledge that you have been editing tendentiously, undo the damage (starting with the Warwick) and agree to be more balanced in future?

• July 2010: Shake Weight.
• September 2011: Warwick New York Hotel.
• July 2012: When Killian Roche from IWL ran into trouble at Meridian Audio [7] you took over and created a puff piece. Today I removed the puffery.
• September 2012:‎ I'm no AFD expert but Digital Luxury Group doesn't look notable to me.
• October 2012: You deleted reliably sourced text that demonstrated the ineffectiveness of the ALCAT test, replaced it with misleading puffery supported by celebrity endorsements,[8] and edit-warred to keep it in.[9] When it became clear that the article would continue to report what reliable sources have to say about the test, you took the article to AFD.

Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:42, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

His response was to Archive my post.[10]

Is this editor's behaviour problematical? If so, what to do? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

This really feels like stalking honestly, or wikihounding or what have you. Anthony and I have a disagreement at ALCAT test and now he appears to be digging through my user history to establish his own tendentious conclusions (made clear by the fact that he only emphasized purported negatives and not anything positive - see all my DYKs, etc). I'm sure I could establish a similar conclusion if I felt like digging through Anthony's user history -- but that wouldn't be the best use of my time and would be a form of harassment. Is this even the proper forum for such a discussion (if such a discussion should even exist?)? Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:09, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Archiving a post may be taken as proof of receipt. You've issued a note of concern. If the problematic behaviour continues, then escalate either to an RFC (if it looks like he may be an otherwise good editor we need to correct) or request a community ban (if he's self-evidently an unreforable POV pusher). Caveate, I've not looked closely.--Scott Mac 16:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Anthony put the wrong diff: This was my response to his message on my talk page [11]: "this is starting to feel like 'stalking'". I don't believe it was worth discussing with Anthony because I don't believe his behavior is done in good faith. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:17, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• I was unfamiliar with this editor until the Palestinian incitement brouhaha. Other than looking at his block log, I have not researched his past edits. Focusing on the bias issue (you've raised two issues the bias and the puffery), which to me is more serious, do you have other examples of his bias besides the recent article (the Warwick Hotel article is somewhat tangential although relevant)? If so, that would assist in deciding whether a topic ban is warranted.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I only had time today to make the apparent paid editing case. I'm on a dodgy connection and can go for long periods without internet access. I looked at enough of the other to satisfy myself there is a problem with pro-Israeli anti-Muslim bias but making that case properly will take time. Five more on the scale of Warwick New York Hotel and Palestinian incitement should make the case, I think. The Warwick Hotel effort is not tangential to a pro-Israeli-anti-Muslim bias. --16:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:42, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I request you strike the marks on "anti-Muslim bias". I consider that a personal attack and unwarranted. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:52, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

And to be clear, I don't make "rare excursions" outside the listed topic areas as claimed by Anthony (and I take umbrage at the claim) if he even bothered looking at my DYKs:

Nasrin Sotoudeh - imprisoned Iranian human rights lawyer

Walid Husayin - imprisoned Palestinian blogger

Zahra Bahrami - executed Iranian dissident

Zenga Zenga - viral auto-tuned song embraced by the Libyan opposition

Mexican pointy boots - awesomeness

Baltimore Rock Opera Society - awesomeness

Yossele the Holy Miser - fabulous folk tale

Fortunoff Video Archive for Holocaust Testimonies - important institution

Gholhak Garden - beautiful British diplomatic compound in Tehran

Ezedin Abdel Aziz Khalil - al-Qaeda operative based in Iran sanctioned by the U.S. government

Sim Bhullar - could become the first prominent NBA basketball player of Indian descent

Saeed Malekpour - Iranian-Canadian computer programmer on death row in Iran

Alcohol enema - awesomeness

Keep in mind that those are Anthony's interpretations of my edits. If you'll look at the condition of any of those pages cited by Anthony before I began working, you'll see I added significant value in a manner that I deemed consistent with Wikipedia rules.

I'm also quite concerned this is quickly going to turn into a witch-hunt -- seeking to establish tendentious conclusions based on cherry-picked information. Let's see all the POV warriors show up here... just wait. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:26, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• Plot Spoiler. You are not helping yourself here. I've not looked (yet) at your edits and so have reached no conclusion. However, the point of this board is that neutral and uninvolved admins examine issues and find solutions (if warranted). Trying to poison the well with preemptive accusations of witchhunt and POV warriors doesn't help. Now, if neutral people look at your edits, will they see a problem? If you are sure they won't, then you've nothing to fear and no need to be defensive. If you think they will, then better to indicate you're aware that you may have occasionally edited less than neutrally, and give some undertakings that you "get it" going forward. That's generally all it takes.--Scott Mac 16:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, do your thang. Happy to work with you and others to address any potential issues. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• I became aware of the editor due to the last AN post here. The editor clearly believes wikipedia is a battleground, as amply demonstrated by his comments in this very thread. The edits are clearly slanted, such as putting this into article space: [12]. The editor removes opinions and criticism from notable organizations that criticize Israel and Jewish groups: [13][14], while adding content critical of Muslims and Arabs elsewhere: [15]. Here he adds lots of content to calls for a boycott etc [[16]][17] which trimming away standard material describing the hotel: [18], such that the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad section is bigger than the rest of the article: Warwick_New_York_Hotel#Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad, all the while he was edit warring with another editor to remove any non-controversial content: [19]. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:53, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I thought the board was for "neutral and uninvolved admins"? Again, this is an example of tendentious editing - cherry-picking information to establish a certain conclusion. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:57, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

This is the extent of our interaction: [20]. I've only edited one article the same as you, and that was 3 days apart. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Your edits are focussed on removing criticism of Israel and it's allies, or that does not portray them in a positive light such as [21][22][23]. Large edits about campaigns against Iran, even though mostly based on primary and self published sources: [24] (while removing content elsewhere as being self published: [25][26]. And adding criticism about companies that support Iran: [27]. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Should I apologize for my concern about human rights in the Middle East and highlighting the plight of dissidents like Sattar Beheshti - believed to have been tortured to death by Iranian authorities in Evin prison? Please WP:AGF and stop making wild accusations based on cherry-picked information. Otherwise I'll have to call the Elders of Zion on you. I hope admins will remove your remarks since you are not a neutral and uninvolved admin or a neutral and uninvolved editor. Plot Spoiler (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I have not yet made a case for serious tendentious editing in the Israel-Islam area. I strongly suspect it, I've seen instances of it, but we need to wait until I or someone else have done a thorough survey of those edits to determine how serious the problem is. I know there's a serious problem with your puffing of commercial articles; I'm pretty sure you've been being paid by a PR company to puff for them since last July. But the other is less certain, for now. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:43, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Wow. If your interactions on this page are examples of your interactions overall, I see an WP:RFC/U in order. An issue with your behaviour overall was raised with you separately. Rather than respond, you deleted it. So, it was raised here where admins and other editors may review your edits and behaviour and comment. Your responses to requests to change your behaviour are not only not positive, but they're proof of poor behaviour overall. Although at first glance I don't see anything immediately requiring admin attention, but I certainly see that the community as a whole certainly might wish to get involved - you just act nasty towards everyone and anyone, including neutral parties who actually know the community nature of this project (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:35, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to add to what BWilkins has said. You're not taking Scott's advice to heart. You're making things worse with just about every comment you make. As a procedural matter, there is absolutely nothing wrong with non-admins posting here with their views. IRWolfie has as much right as anyone else to post comments as to your conduct. In addition, your sentence about the Elders of Zion is odd, at best. It's apparently a threat, but I don't even understand what you mean; was it intended as sarcasm, something else?--Bbb23 (talk) 17:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Again, I apologize. Editors are making some very serious charges and I felt the need to respond to statements which I felt were unfair and unsubstantiated. I have struck some of my remarks and I will let the process take over. Please let me know how I can be at your disposal. Plot Spoiler (talk) 17:57, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated? I presented 15 diffs showing your behaviour, IRWolfie- (talk) 18:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm off to bed. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

LOL. I tried that last night in the topic above. Little good it did me. I woke up this morning to what I perceived as offensive remarks by another admin. On the positive side, I slept well. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 18:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I haven't yet read any of the underlying diffs, but based upon the interaction on this page, I guessed Plot Spoiler was a newish editor. I was stunned to see almost 7 thousand edits, yet complete lack of understanding of how this place works. On a positive note, I hope that's because Plot Spoiler's edits haven't been the subject of the admin boards. However, for Plot Spoiler's benefit:

• Yes, this is a place where someone can bring items of concerns in the hope that uninvolved and neutral admins can take a look, but that does not mean only neutral admins can comment, it doesn't even mean only admins can comment.
• Others have pointed out that your accusations aren't helping your cause; I hope you most recent edits mean you now understand that.
• If an editor sees potentially concerning edits by another editor, such as bias or puffery, it is not stalking to look at the other contributions of the editor. It is standard practice. There have been real cases of stalking, this isn't in the ballpark. SPhilbrick(Talk) 18:39, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Plot has been a regular on AE concerning the ARBPIA topic area.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what constitutes being a "regular". Important to point out I haven't been blocked from Wikipedia or the ARBPIA topic area for more than 24 hours - as opposed to other ARBPIA editors that have faced indefinite blocks or blocks extending months of weeks. Plot Spoiler (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure I'd use that as a defense, but in any event you were blocked for 31 hours in February of this year.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

If there are any problem with certain editor in the WP:ARBPIA area you may raise in WP:AE.Actually there are bunch of editors hat want to promote their POV from both sides of the conflict.Should all of them be banned?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:20, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Depends on the severity and persistence of the POV-pushing.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Well many were topic banned and still returned to editing I think I could present diffs on many editors in the area and show they promote certain POV along their editing history.I don't see anything damning in the diffs presented by editors here but if anyone here have a case I invite him to go to WP:AE so the matter will be solved.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:50, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I can't recall an AE case where someone presented evidence of long term systemic bias and the editor was topic banned on that basis, although I may have missed a few. I'm not sure AE can handle that or at least I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that it can. People are banned for technical violations/edit warring or when they make egregiously disruptive edits. AE doesn't seem to be good at dealing with complexity or large amounts of evidence. Editors aren't good at preparing large amounts of evidence either, it's tedious. Banning all editors who promote a POV they favor via ARBPIA3 or whatever probably wouldn't work because new editors arrive everyday to advocate, many far worse than existing editors, many of them sockpuppets of course and some active right now as usual. I would choose an honest but biased nationalist editor over a dishonest biased nationalist disposable sockpuppet account that can break rules with impunity, any day of the week. Sean.hoyland - talk 20:07, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the solution is to delete all the articles in topic area or maybe freeze it in current state.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:20, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Brilliant. Either of those options works for me. Or build a security barrier around the articles and have a rigorous entry policy, just pick a random attribute to build the granfalloon of suitable editors with the right qualities, favorite cheese for example, must be Chinese on their father's side, or whatever, exclude everyone else and have drones flying over head to zap intruders. The problems in the topic area really do seem completely intractable to me. Sean.hoyland - talk 20:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• Unless you've been living under a rock, you'd have realized that there are about two dozen other editors who act very similarly to Plot Spoiler. And they've been doing it for years. Some have received temporary bans at AE, but some have never been sanctioned. Biased editing in the IP area is not a sanctionable offense per se. Tijfo098 (talk) 01:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
• I have looked at a couple of the disputes related to the WP:ARBPIA area, and they induce despair. Eventually a draconian solution will be needed (some LOL suggestions: have one set of articles that only P editors are permitted to edit, and another that only I editors are permitted to edit; or, have a rule enforcing no more than 10 edits per week in the topic area or its talk pages or noticeboards for all P and I editors). The combativeness in Plot Spoiler's comments here shows the general pattern that applies throughout the PI area—those involved are fighting a noble cause and will not be dissuaded by reason. Johnuniq (talk) 01:22, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm still browsing through his contributions. I've found a few problems but my connection keeps dropping out. Let's close this for now, and when I'm back in civilisation I'll have a forensic look. If I conclude there's a problem in the Jew/Judaism/Israel/Muslim/Islam/Palistine area I'll make a proper case. If it comes to that, where should I take the case for a topic ban? Here?

Plot Spoiler, I am very confident you're a paid advocate for a PR firm. If you come anywhere near another medical article with that shit, I'll move heaven and earth to have you run off this site. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:57, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole, please stop posting inflammatory personal attacks of this kind. Please refactor your post. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 11:24, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

history restore request

Can someone do a history restore at Template talk:2010-2019VSFashion Show.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, done because harmless, but there is nothing useful there... CharlieEchoTango (contact) 08:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I thought I had properly created this talk previously so I just wanted to see the history. If I had known it was only the deletable page, I wouldn't have made the request.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:24, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Why is Race (human classification) so biased? (Mikemikev)

(moved to talkpage) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:44, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• A trolling post by Mikemikev was moved from here to an article talk page.[28] [29] As pointed out on WP:ANI, where CU Deskana commented about this community banned user, for the last month or two Mikemikev has been editing from South Korea, where he is currently working. Per the R&I motion about banned users, although his posts may be removed, please do not add them elsewhere. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 13:10, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• Move by Seb az86556 obviously done in good faith; has been reverted by Ryulong. WP:SPI filed by myself. NE Ent 14:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

  In the future, you should really not just post to the old SPI case page and use the proper template that someone coded up.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Too hard. I don't really care. It's a waste of time -- as long as anonymous (IP) editing is a fundamental Wikipedia precept we're gonna have trolls. Was mostly doing as a courtesy to Mathsci (we having a standing disagreement over troll response which I really didn't want to get into here.). Was planning to dump the troll comments off the race page once the SPI signed off on it being a mikemikev; wouldn't have bothered had I known Ryulong was gonna revert the edit. So telling me "really" in the future stuff is a waste of bits. The day I log in at the not WP:BURO pillar is gone I'll just leave. If someone wants to do something useful vis-a-vis SPI filings, I'd suggest add edit notices to the page(s) -- I did look for instructions there but there weren't any. Had there been some template / instructions visible I would've been happy to cut and paste. NE Ent 14:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Archiving my talk page

I would like to create archives #6-10 (so that I can archive, and so I would not have to come back here to bother you again. My current archive is full. When I do it, it says I need administrative privileges. Please assist. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:02, 25 November 2012 (UTC)