Talk:Barack Obama

There are ALREADY 5 separate sections on "PRESIDENT-ELECT" on this page

Please read them before adding your comments to any of them or before starting yet another section on the subject. Thanks. It avoids redundancy and repetitive discussions/explanations. Softlavender (talk) 17:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

TFA heads up

FYI - this article is going to be tomorrow's featured article (Nov 4). Per the compromise noted in the log, I've upped the FA protection level to full/cascading, for 25 hours. Raul654 (talk) 23:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

That, uh, was not the compromise that was made, incidentally. I'm not going to wheel war, but this sort of breaks the promise I made to everyone that the article would not be fully protected until absolutely necessary, 12:00AM Nov 4th at the earliest. ~ L'Aquatique! [^talk/_stats] 23:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

You're complaining that I protected it 5 12 minutes early? Raul654 (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the complaint is that it was protected hours early. TFA's don't always get full-protection. Why now? Grsz^{11 →Review!} 00:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Depends on where you are in the world. Check your signature. --GoodDamon 00:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

FA? Are you kidding? Wikidemon (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Um, wow. You aren't kidding.Wikidemon (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It's kind of cool that the article's back up there. :) Brothejr (talk) 00:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

When L'Aquatique said "November 4" I would assume actual election activity November 4. Polls don't open for another 11 and a half hours. Grsz^{11 →Review!} 00:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I assumed the same. Does that also mean that the articles are moved off the main page in 24 hours? That would be before the polls close in most places. ~ priyanath ^talk 00:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that now Obama and McCain are full, while Palin and Biden are still semi, which was quite against consensus. Grsz^{11 →Review!} 00:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is. For the record, when I made the compromise my intention was to have these articles protected around the same time polls started opening on the east coast. These articles being featured on the front page complicates it, because if we keep them up on the front page unprotected, it'll be bad. But watching them get protected earlier than I promised bothers me as well. I am going to try to keep the VP bios unprotected until the promised time, we'll see what happens. ~ L'Aquatique! [^talk/_stats] 00:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I think it shows good judgment and leadership to protect things earlier rather than later. Both the level of vandalism on this article and the highly publicized spruce-up of Palin's Wikipedia article the day before she was announced as the VP pick shows that passionate partisans have Wikipedia accounts, and they're not afraid to use 'em. Good call, L'Aquatique. Thirdbeach (talk) 02:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, thanks, but it actually wasn't my call. ~ L'Aquatique! [^talk/_stats] 05:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Oops, got it -- it's clear as a bell when I read instead of skim. Still think it was prudent, but sorry to mistakenly implicate you in the timing. :-) Thirdbeach (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Archive pls?

Can y'all please archive some of this talk page before mainpage hits? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm closing a number of discussions as resolved... I hope that's the right way to go about it and that the closures are not controversial - feel free to undo my closures and give me a trout-slap if not. I might combine a few repeated discussions. Perhaps someone would want to archive them. Wikidemon (talk) 00:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess this[4] did the trick. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Remove big template box

Could someone remove the big ugly template box at the top of the article? The twin main page article for today, John McCain, is also protected but just has the nice gold-colored lock icon off to the side, and doesn't have the big ugly template box that this article has. Tempshill (talk) 00:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. Gimmetrow 00:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Tempshill (talk) 01:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation of "African American"

At present the article has "African American", "African-American" and "African–American". Could we have consistency? Nurg (talk) 00:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

In my quick hunt through the MOS I see no preferred version. There is a rejected style guide, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigrant ethnic groups), that does not address hyphenation other than to say usages "vary". The Hyphenated American article claims that most style guides recommend dropping the hyphen except when the term is used as an adjective, but it cites only one such guide[5] that does not say this so clearly. At a Q&A page the Chicago Manual of Style recommends against the hyphen entirely.[6] At Talk:African American#hyphen there is no agreement. At Wikipedia talk:African American there is a comment that the matter is ad-hoc here, but consistent within an article. All in all I would vote for changing them all to "African American" without the hyphen. Wikidemon (talk) 00:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the instance of an en dash to a hyphen. This is not ruling out a further change to a space, but I wanted to at least get rid of the dash. Nurg (talk) 10:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe a hyphen is necessary for good grammar. For example, there is a difference in meaning between between "African-American candidate" and "African American-candidate"Gregcaletta (talk) 06:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The grammatically correct way of putting it is African American. It is a simple adjective/noun relationship similar to that of the red ball. The ball is red, the American is African. Should the term be used before a noun, a hyphen is necessary (i.e. the African-American man), but if it's just something like, "I saw an African American at church today," there is no need for a dash or hyphen because it is like saying, "I passed a blue house today." I'll see if I have time to go in and fix. ~ Wadester16 (talk) 16:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama as a Law Professor at UCI

Here is an article quoting the UC administration that he was never a professor of law at the school, but was essentially an adjunct professor(or Lecturer). This is important since it is the introduction and does not accurately describe his position within the university. This is also important, because UC came out and actually said that he was not a Constitutional Law professor. I think this is important and should be updated/changed.

Here is the article : http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/03/sweet_obama_did_hold_the_title.html Dgreco (talk) 3 November 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't say he was. It says he "taught constitutional law". Grsz^{11 →Review!} 00:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

'African American'

perennial proposal, discussion degenerating, will not result in change to article
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Obama is not an African American. he is not a negro. his background is Kenyan, so it should say Kenyan American, not African American. Kenya is in Africa, because Africa is a continent, but America is not a continent, so for the sake of consistency and logic if one were to persist with using the word African, it would be African-North American. Otherwise Kenyan American us the correct term. I doubt this will get changed though, people in the US just assume that if you're black you're a negro and an African American. You can call a spade anything you want, it is still a spade —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.117.97 (talk) 00:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Last time I checked, Kenya is in Africa. And by the way, "spade" is nearly as offensive as the N-word. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC) That's an interesting point; is there any precedence for this though (either IRL or on Wikipedia)? — pd_THOR | =/\= | 00:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC) In my quick hunt through the MOS I see no preferred version. There is a rejected style guide, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigrant ethnic groups), that does not address hyphenation other than to say usages "vary". The Hyphenated American article claims that most style guides recommend dropping the hyphen except when the term is used as an adjective, but it cites only one such guide[7] that does not say this so clearly. At a Q&A page the Chicago Manual of Style recommends against the hyphen entirely.[8] At Talk:African American#hyphen there is no agreement. At Wikipedia talk:African American there is a comment that the matter is ad-hoc here, but consistent within an article. All in all I would vote for changing them all to "African American" without the hyphen. Wikidemon (talk) 00:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC) I (and the IP) was referring to the idea of specifying the ancestry of "Kenyan" as opposed to just "African". — pd_THOR | =/\= | 00:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC) On the surface your request makes sense, but that catagory only applies to persons born in various countries. African American is justified in this case since Obama was born in the U.S. and not Kenya.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC) I've stricken my earlier answer. It was intended for the section on hyphenation. Regarding the racial designation, please see FAQ #2 (expand the FAQ at the top of this page). This issue has been discussed repeatedly, and there is strong long-term consensus for calling Obama African-American as a primary ethnic designation, then describing his background in more detail (as has been done) in the article. It is a combination of his self-identification and the overwhelming weight of reliable sources. Although there is a lot of history, politics, and arbitrariness in the words used to describe race, ethnicity, nationality, ancestry, etc., Wikipedia's choice is to follow the most universal reasonable standards rather than to be at the forefront of changing language. Wikidemon (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Cf. European-American or Asian-American. --Evb-wiki (talk) 01:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Maybe one day we won't even have this discussion. I don't see in the John McCain article where we spend one kb of effort to describe him as Irish American (although I do note something in one of the article's category). I don't care that Obama is anything, I care only about what he may or may not do for this country. But, I'm like standing against a tsunami here, so I just think this discussion is queerly (meant as strange not a gay pejorative) American. Sigh. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC) It was a valid question and perhaps the person asking was just needing a clarification. If a person is born in Kenya, then he is Kenyan-American, but if he is born in the US, then he is an American. African-American is used to clarify race, since using the term black is no longer politically correct.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC) It's a legitimate question for sure, and an important one to boot. Just one that has been asked and answered many times on this page, so it's helpful to point people to the relevant discussion so we don't start from scratch each time. Cheers, Wikidemon (talk) 01:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC) You mean one of the 39 index archives, that are near impossible to navigate?--Jojhutton (talk) 02:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Please see the FAQ question 2. Brothejr (talk) 12:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC) I know that this subject was discussed "ad nauseam" but I can't help noticing that calling Obama an "African American", in spite of his mixed European and African roots, is analogous to applying infamous Nuremberg Laws to people of mixed Jewish and Aryan descent. Somehow it implies that "bad" African blood prevails over his "good" white half.Tsf (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC) It's what the reliable sources call him, ja? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Black? Excuse me for asking a simple question, but if his mother was white, how and why would we label him as 'black?' This is a classic example of a half-truth. --Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 15:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Actually, this is a classic example of half-wit. Please refer to Q2 of the FAQ section (as suggested by the previous comment that you somehow missed) at the top of this page, or the millions of words on the subject in the archive of this talk page.. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Actually, this is a classic example of half-wit. You are not trying to insult me are you ? --Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 18:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC) I was paraphrasing you, for which you should be mildly flattered. Seriously though, what is the point of having FAQs, and archive and search facilities if people don't use them. This issue has been address literally dozens and dozens of times. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC) While this is, of course, another junk thread, it is hilarious to me that there are people who would argue with a straight face that a man with an African father and an American mother would not be "African-American". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Yeh, it's a junk thread, in large part because the IP address who posted it did so in order to slip in a racist joke about "spade". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Watch how a wiki works in real time

Here is an opportunity for people new to Wikipedia to see how editors constantly strive to improve our content. Discussions about how to improve the brief paragraphs that appear on Wikipedia's main page can be found at Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/November 4, 2008 (just click the link). As well, you can see a history of the changes that have already been made here on the article history. Welcome to Wikipedia. Please feel free to edit this talk page, and offer your suggestions on how this article can be improved. Risker (talk) 01:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Birthplace is not official

Talk pages must adhere to WP:BLP; accusations that Barack Obama isn't a native-born U.S. citizen are not only fringe conspiracy theories, they are libelous.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This is not libelous. Barack Obama was sued because of theories that he wasn't an american born citizen, and, because he did not show up, technically he admitted he was not a natraul born citizen, and he was still a citizen of Kenya. Donatrip (talk) 19:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Gimme a break. Do you really think the GOP and Rush Limbaugh would have let this go, if there were even a hint of truth to the allegation? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC) You want some truth? Go to this page-http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78671 Donatrip (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Limbaugh has spread every lie, every smear, that he can come up with, against Obama. If Obama were not a U.S. citizen, it would be the trump card. So if Limbaugh hasn't brought this up, then there's absolutely nothing to it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Obama has ordered his birth certificate sealed. Since this public figure is keeping his certificate hidden, as far as I'm concerned, his birth information is unconfirmed, merely his say so. He's also, for some odd reason, ordered Kenya not to reveal any birth information about himself. Why would that be, unless he was born there? Why would he have to tell Kenya to seal "his" records? What records? Why would an American-born presidential candidate have to tell Kenya to officially seal "his" birth records? Very, very odd. GBC (talk) 01:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC) That's part of a perennial conspiracy theory that Obama is not really American. This has been repeatedly addressed here. Please see question #5 among the frequently asked questions at the top of the page (expand by clicking on the FAQ hyperlink). Wikidemon (talk) 01:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC) This would be funny if it were not so pathetic. Edison (talk) 05:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC) I think the sheer fact that his birthplace is still under dispute should make his birthplace listed as "disputed" or something similar. Facts listed must be verifiable. That there is a dispute is verifiable; that he was born in either Hawaii or Kenya is not, so long as there are several places disputing this claim and official records that could be used to support this claim are unavailable. My own opinion on the matter aside, I think the birth place is officially contested still, and so cannot be listed as a sourceless fact, according to Wikipedia policies. Oneilius (talk) 01:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC) It's not under dispute. The Hawai'i department of Health confirmed that he was born in Hawai'i. ~ L'Aquatique! [talk/stats] 01:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC) "On Nov. 1, the Associated Press wrote that Hawaii State officials declared that they have "personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate" and "there's no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii." Sorry, public figure asking the public to vote, must make the document public. Government officials are not 100% reliable in their integrity. If Obama has nothing to hide then he has no business "sealing" his birth records. Give up the document or give up the candidacy. If anyone challenged my legitimacy, I would happily let them examine my documents, and yes, I have been a candidate for office... six times. Compared to Obama, I'm small potatoes. GBC (talk) 01:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Let's be clear about this. There is no dispute about Obama's birthplace. This is a fringe theory that has been repeatedly discredited and laughed at by people with more than 13 brain cells. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC) (edit conflict)Per mainstream reliable sources, his birthplace is Hawaii. See WP:RS and WP:VERIFY to learn more about the sourcing used for Wikipedia articles. Blogs, talk show radio hosts, and other WP:FRINGE sources do not qualify. Also see question #5 among the frequently asked questions at the top of the page (expand by clicking on the FAQ hyperlink). ~ priyanath talk 01:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Someone posted earlier asking why Obama's still in the running in spite of short political experience. Notwithstanding my belief in a lesser-known agency's reports questioning Obama's birthplace, it is my belief that legally qualified candidates are subject to the judgements of the political process. America has the system of primaries, delegate selection, and I believe American citizens generally get to vote in their presidential primaries - it is not just something party members do. That being the case, Obama, Clinton and whoever else was running was winnowed down by this democratic process. So, even if Obama may be perceived as being short on experience, it evidently is the judgement of that voting process that the experience is sufficient for him to serve these voters as president. I personally have those misgivings as well as my belief he is not a legal candidate, but if he allows his birth certificate to be examined carefully and it turns out to be legit, then I am only left with my belief that he lacks experience and his policies are not the right ones for a free and prosperous America. But if his birthplace is right, he is definitely a legal candidate and he is a worthy candidate because enough voters said that he is. GBC (talk) 08:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC) By the way, I do not question John McCain's eligibility. He was born in the Panama Canal Zone; it was not sovereign US territory, and although a law was not adopted by Congress regarding citizenship of persons born there, until 17 years after McCain was born. However, Panama had no authority over who came into the zone, and essentially it functioned as though it was US territory. If Panama had retained all sovereign rights from 1903 to 1979, then it would have had control over who came into Panama, whether or not it was the canal area, and anyone born in Panama would automatically have Panamanian citizenship. But this was not the case. What rules applied from 1979 to 2000 may be different, however, since there was no zone anymore, and people being born to Americans would have Panamanian citizenship (unless the Carter-Torrijos Treaty made provisions) until the mother applied for recognition of an American citizen born abroad (as my children have been). GBC (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Upon her deathbed, Obama's own grandmother stated that she witnessed Obama's birth in KENYA, AFRICA. This IS a conspiracy, to keep the truth hidden from view by rabid pro-Obama supporters here at Wikipedia and within the confines of a powerful silence by the conspirators in the US and UN government. There is absolutely NO evidence that Obama was born in the United States, there is only a copy of a birth certificate that claims he was born in Hawaii. A powerful lawyer's group has sued to force his original birth certificate to be displayed publicly but a pro-Obama judge ordered it sealed and a gag order imposed. Prove me wrong on ANY of this if you can. WALTER RING-Richmond, VA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.0.9.207 (talk) 22:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh, who would do anything to see Obama defeated, has not challenged Obama's eligibility. Therefore, you're wrong. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and debunked at length, please see the FAQ on this page. Dayewalker (talk) 22:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Why archive active discussions?

Active discussions have been archived. Why? I've never seen that before. WP:ARCHIVE: "It is customary to periodically archive old discussions on a talk page when that page becomes too large." Is an article last updated several dozen minutes ago too "old"?

I urge people to look at the latest archive to see conversations that were active only hours before. If you want to talk about them again, you'll have to bring them here now, to a new section you may create. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I plan on bringing it up on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents page after the election. There seems to be a problem with doing that, and on this page in particular.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Please concentrate on proposed improvements to the article, not complaints about other editors - this is not the place for that. The request to archive the page is made several threads above, probably due to vastly increased editing volume in connection with the upcoming election and preparing for this article's being a featured article soon along with John McCain's. Wikidemon (talk) 01:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

No one said anything about any editors, not even generally. The request to archive was for "some" of the page, not the entire page including active discussions. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I see a section above asks, "Can y'all please archive some of this talk page before mainpage hits?" Some, not all, but it appears it was all archived. Can active talk be restored? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have an issue from the archive you'd like to bring up, you can copy-paste to relist, yes, but everything was archived (at McCain as well) to clean up. Grsz^{11 →Review!} 01:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Below I've placed 4 de-archived threads that were not yet 48 hours old. --Evb-wiki (talk) 01:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. That's reasonable. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey that seems wrong. No matter how old a thread is, I was under the impression that as long as it's active, it wouldn't be archived. Am I mistaken?VictorC (talk) 01:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

FAQ help

I've tried adding the following to the FAQ question about Obama's birth, but for some reason it doesn't show up when I look at it. Can anyone help?

On Nov. 1, the Associated Press wrote that Hawaii State officials declared that they have "personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate" and "there's no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii."[9]

Thanks, ~ priyanath ^talk 06:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Oops, looks like it shows up now. Must have been a cache clearing problem or something. ~ priyanath ^talk 06:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it takes a few minutes for FAQ changes to transclude into the main article. --GoodDamon 14:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Interest group ratings?

Resolved and closed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
They are on many other Sens and Reps pages why aren't there any for Obama, also is there a place I could find ratings —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.106.205 (talk) 11:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Hello. Please describe exactly what you're looking for. I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're getting at. As far as "ratings" go, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a straw poll or opinion poll. Cheers. DigitalNinja 20:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC) I assume you mean something along the lines of "Obama is rated F by the National Rifle Association," or "the ACLU has given Obama a score of 80% on civil liberty issues." These are from Political positions of Barack Obama, where it is more appropriate to go into this kind of detail, as this article is in the summary style. Grsz11 →Review! 20:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Ah, I believe you are correct Grsz. I thought he was referring to Gallop Poll type ratings (e.g. How does the public rate Obama on the economy). Thanks for clarifying. DigitalNinja 21:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

ACORN - Added Short Section - (As This is a Republican Campaign Topic)

I know this might have been covered in this talk page more than a few times. I didn't find a reference to it in the article, so I added a few sentences with references and links. Please revert if it's irrelevent, but I keep hearing and reading about this topic in reference to Obama's connection to it. Seemed to me to be kind of obtuse to not have at least three or four sentences on it. VictorC (talk) 12:22, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Just as Victorcoutin states in the section head, this is a "Republican Campaign Topic", and should be in the campaign article—just not here. ~ priyanath ^talk 15:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, Brothejr (talk) just swooped in last night, reverted me, then immediately logged out. Nice. In any case, I'm waiting for him to either undo or move it where ever it seems most appropriate. Would have been nice if he had actually been right about his justification. Takes only a few seconds to check for goodness sake. I just note that ACORN's blatantly absent from any topic on Wikipedia having to do with either McCain or Obama! Odd. - Good to know I'm not the only person here besides reversionists. VictorC (talk) 17:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Try to assume some good faith, here... This article, the ACORN article, and other articles tenuously related to Obama have been under constant attack by single-purpose accounts intent on turning them into attacks on their subjects instead of encyclopedic articles about their subjects. In these final 48 hours of the election season, it has been nonstop, to the point where some long-term regular editors have begun taking a revert-on-sight stance on perceived attempts to bring inappropriate campaign material into what is, after all, a person's biography. And make no mistake, the same has occurred at the John McCain article. So my recommendation is to do the edits yourself, in the appropriate article, and give long-term editors here the benefit of the doubt. It's been rather exhausting, to be honest. --GoodDamon 17:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I second what GoodDamon says, emphasizing that there have been a number of people trying to add Republican Campaign Topics to this article, not realizing that such campaign talking points should go to other articles. Most have done this antagonistically, so editors here are on a short fuse at times. VictorC—if you do add this to the campaign article, I suggest it be done in the context of it being used as a campaign tactic. That's the only reason it might be notable. ~ priyanath ^talk 17:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll wait for the other editor to come back at least till tonight, but you can check the diff. I just added I think three sentences with references. I'm not sure how this is a talking point, the way it's phrased it's just a reference. VictorC (talk) 17:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC) No, it should be!

Set aside any political basis for adding ACORN to this article. ACORN, speaking positively now, is a significant part of Obama's past. ACORN should be added for that reason and based on Wiki policies. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:52, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

(editconflict)I did see it - and think that it might be appropriate for United States presidential election, 2008, but certainly not here. But even there, it has no notability except in the context of the Republicans using it as a smear tactic. So their use of it as a campaign tactic would need to be stated. That's just my opinion. I haven't been editing the campaign article, so I don't know what the editors there have been seeing as notable. I suggest you ask over there, since people here seem to have their hands full with this article. ~ priyanath ^talk 17:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think it has no notability? I keep hearing about it pretty much in reference to Obama on a regular basis, and when I looked into it I was surprised to see that the most major interaction that Obama's seemed to have with "ACORN" is in dealing with overblown and baseless exaggerations from the campaign trail. I think that's pretty notable, especially since (as far as I can tell) the only other times he dealt with them was kind of limited. In any case, the other editor reverted citing a reason that had no basis in fact (unlike what you've been saying). So, as far as I'm concerned, the balls in his court. Why not let him clean up his own mess? I'm not his babysitter after all, and perhaps he knows something we don't. I see that he's on this page pretty often. I think we are perhaps better off deferring to his judgment. VictorC (talk) 18:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, the notability "is in dealing with overblown and baseless exaggerations from the campaign trail", and therefore it is only notable in regard to the campaign, not to the overall picture of his life - which is what this article is about. Methinks the editor you're referring to will agree when he gets back. ~ priyanath ^talk 18:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe the next time he gets an itch he has to scratch he can take some time and patience with his zeal. I was kind of surprised when last night he just would swoop in then disappear. I think we might all work at having more respect for other people's edits than that. Especially if we both agree with each other (and even if we don't). Sorry for the off-topic blurb, but I guess mentioning etiquette is pertinent in strange places. VictorC (talk) 18:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thankfully, just 1-day to go. GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, after the election then, positive/encyclopedic things about ACORN should be added on this page. Saying it lives elsewhere is no excuse for completely wiping this page clean of any ACORN mention, even positive one. It smacks of pure POV to leave out wiki-worthy material. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Obama's work for Project Vote is already duly covered in the article. Obama's interaction with ACORN as its own organization is very peripheral to his own life. He apparently was on a legal team to represent ACORN, but the staffing of lawyers to cases within a law firm, and even being lead attorney on a case, rarely gets covered here unless it's a defining moment in the attorney's career, e.g. Johnny Cochran and Christopher Darden on the O. Jr. Simpson murder case. I don't have a count, but Obama likely worked on dozens of cases, many at higher dollar amounts or for people and organizations more notable than ACORN. This is not a list article of his legal cases. Similarly, we don't list every vendor of a presidential campaign in the bio article on the candidate. Without impugning the intentions of any editors, the only reason why Obama's relationship with ACORN is being discussed off wiki is in the context of the campaign, meaning that at best this belongs in the campaign article. And moreover, to the extent that this is a campaign talking point, and major reliable third party sources cover it as a campaign tactic rather than a matter of substance, Obama's role in ACORN needs to be described where it is covered as a campaign accusation, not a notable matter in its own right. I'll add that this issue has been discussed at some length here with no consensus for inclusion.Wikidemon (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

What Wikidemon said. (Beat me to the punch again). I would also add that there are lots of things that are in sub-articles, rather than the main article, which is in summary style. If we tried to cram everything, positive and negative, from the campaigns into this article, it would far exceed Wikipedia's policy on article length. So new additions have to be weighed very carefully. --GoodDamon 18:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I assumed that. I checked the talk page first before I started working on the section and checking the references. I didn't find anything. I know, I just didn't check thoroughly enough. Well, there should at least be a link or reference on the page (and/or on McCain's page) - the Republicans have made this kind of a linchpin of their campaign. Like I said when I first started this new section, you all can disagree with me (and revert everything - I'd consider it obtuse though) that's what Wikipedia is all about I suppose. VictorC (talk) 18:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, I think I see where the problem lies. This talk page is very busy, and older threads are frequently archived. There are links to the talk page archives near the top, and those should contain the discussions you're looking for. --GoodDamon 18:43, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I just found five threads with ACORN in the heading, the largest one with over 70 entries. Wow. Do I feel silly. Thanks for the guidance. I'm still pretty green at Wikipedia - obviously! VictorC (talk) 19:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

No worries. You saw what you thought was a problem, and moved to rectify it. That's called being bold, and it's encouraged! Then, you took things to the talk page, and you paid attention to the arguments of other editors, which is also encouraged. And you didn't revert-war. I'd say, thus far you've been pretty close to a model Wikipedian. :) --GoodDamon 19:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow, a lot of things happened while I was asleep after a 13+ hour night shift! Sorry for not responding right away after your last post to talk page! My reasoning for removing the post from the article is exactly the same as stated by Wikidemon, Gooddemon, Priyanath. ACORN, while splashed heavily around the news right now is mainly a campaign issue and when looked into, did not really play a major or even a minor part in Barack Oabma's life other then a Republican campaign talking point by his opponent. By placing the topic in it's own section gave it undue weight making it look like it was a major life defining event in his life. The reason I stated the 2008 presidential comment was because (I had thought I had saw it in one of those articles which as it turns out was not, my bad!) it is mainly a result of the elections. If the elections would not be going on right now, no one would even be talking about this or even giving ACORN a second look. This article is written in summary style so the majority of the smaller nitty gritty details/events should be first and foremost be placed in the daughter articles before it is even considered to be put in the main article. However, I do want to also echo what GD had just said above and even though I reverted it, you still did right by being bold and then when reverted, coming here to discuss it instead of revert-warring the section back in. That goes a long way for creditability and being a really cool wikipedian in my book! ;D Brothejr (talk) 20:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back Brothejr. If you reexamine the entry, it's very short. It's not in its own section. It might stand some rewording, but I contend it is needed and fills out the article. One editor (above) suggested that it could be reworded as a refutation to the Republican assertation, I personally am not sure that's even a needed factor. I feel it's better to leave it as a few simple, yet informative statements so conclusions can be drawn in either direction. I have everything referenced and I did take some time preparing it. I don't think it has any attached stigma to it the way I set it up. In any case, the veritable ball is in your veritable court. VictorC (talk) 21:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I did and I still stand by my decision. It does not carry enough weight to be included in any form in this article and would be best to be included in an 2008 presidential election article. You are more then welcome to add ACORN to the 2008 presidential election article if it is not already there. However it still does not carry enough weight to be included in the main article. Brothejr (talk) 21:22, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Update: I have been reading the old "talk" entries on this and they refer to the entries on Project Vote as if it is ACORN. So far, as much as I can tell they aren't affiliated. They only have overlapping activities in certain areas, it seems, and combined forces in certain situations. I think that may be how Obama first became associated with ACORN (of which, again he doesn't seem to have worked for outside of the lawsuit (and a one day orientation session which they asked him to participate in - looks like they had him give a one or two hour pep talk to a classroom). So the entries on 'Project Vote' don't actually have anything to do with ACORN. VictorC (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, so how about moving it there with a link to the entry here? VictorC (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

One editor said, "Exactly, the notability 'is in dealing with overblown and baseless exaggerations from the campaign trail', and therefore it is only notable in regard to the campaign, not to the overall picture of his life - which is what this article is about." That is irrelevant. Obama claimed his executive experience running his campaign as the executive experience he needs to be President. That's a fact that he said that. I'll assume anything he says is part of "the overall picture of his life" is, in fact, part of "the overall picture of his life" and should not be removed by an editor saying it has no notability. His campaign is necessarily part of "the overall picture of his life," based on what he himself said. Not based on my view, not on anyone else's view, but based on what he said. How could his campaign be the executive experience he needs to be President and yet not notable here on this wiki page? That does not make sense. I see people making this page the way they want it to be rather than the way it is in real life. So after the election (just to avoid the appearance that I'm doing this for political reasons), something, even a little something, needs to be added about ACORN somewhere on this page. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Additionally it might be argued that the ACORN case and lawsuit (in collaboration with the US Justice Dept) that resulted in the statewide enforcement of the Motor Voter Law and achieved national recognition thus propelled Obama further along on his road to the US presidential race. So therefore I say this is something we might not so easily dismiss. VictorC (talk) 21:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is written in WP:Summary style. That means that there are a whole bunch of sub-articles, each of which deals with one subject in detail. Only the most important aspects of Obama's life should be documented here. Most of the campaign-related material goes into the campaign article, most of the material about his early life goes into Early life and career of Barack Obama and so on. In each case, the most important portion (or lead section) of any sub-article is included here. That is not irrelevant. It determines how we approach adding new material. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 21:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. Well, I think that perhaps we can enter a topic on how he was instrumental (or involved with) the early implementation of the Motor Voter Law in Illinois - which is a major contribution (biographically speaking) and also explains the ACORN interaction. This could be in a subsection of the page there with a short sentence and a link to it here. Or a short item with a few sentences. VictorC (talk) 21:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Some editors here think ACORN is not notable but this is: "In March 2007, Global Language Monitor added "Obama" to its English lexicon based on the use of Obama- as a root for neologisms such as: obamamentum, obamaBot, obamacize, obamarama, obamaNation, obamanomics, obamican, obamafy, obamamania, and obamacam." That's it, I'll not comment here further. This page is apparently patrolled by "obamicans." --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Subsequently, obamicans has been removed. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 13:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(To VC) The same thing comes up that we have been saying before, first it must be added to the appropriate sub-article and then weighed to how significant of an impact on his personal life the issue is to Barack before we add it to the article. Also, to add something like this, you will need consensus of the other editors. (To LegitimateAndEvenCompelling) Please only discuss the article content and not other editors, thank you. Brothejr (talk) 22:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

-editconflict- I've been looking into this, and I'm beginning to think that the whole shebang can go into the Motor voter page, with a sentence or two here and a sentence or two in the campaign page linking to it. The Motor voter page is really a skeleton that needs more additions (the Illinois lawsuit is mentioned in the same sentence with five or six other similar lawsuits) and this chapter in the history of it is significant. Additionally, L&EC I am in no way an ObamaBot. If you continue to refer to me in that manner I might have to commit Obamacide on your keester.VictorC (talk) 22:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

"Keester." Is that an Alan Keyes supporter in the race against Obama? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Howabout continuing this after tomorrow, folks? It's gonna be less relevant then, eitherway. GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

After tomorrow? But then people wouldn't be able to influence the election addition of encyclopedic material :-). I agree, give all this a rest for now - there will be no consensus found for adding 'new' material that has already been discussed over and over again, until after the election. ~ priyanath ^talk 22:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

ACORN

Set aside any political basis for adding ACORN to this article. ACORN, speaking positively now, is a significant part of Obama's past. ACORN should be added, even if only a sentence, for that reason and based on Wiki policies. Such a large article with not even a single mention of ACORN smacks of POV/soapbox. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I see the active thread on this was restored. Others active threads were restored as well. Good. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama had very little to do with ACORN, so any mention of the organization in his biography would be undue weight. This probably should have stayed in the archive, since this has been covered not less than a million times. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we re-close this discussion? There is little chance of achieving consensus to add this material to the article in the near future. Wikidemon (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

OK: Here's my two cents. The problem here isn't ACORN. It's that Obama was part of a national drive in conjunction with the DOJ in the state of Illinois to legally compel non-compliant states to observe the Motor voter law that had been passed by Congress in '93. This IS a milestone in Obama's life, career. ACORN just happens to be a part of the story. So, perhaps the entire approach is not to title it "ACORN," it should be under either Motor Voter Law or Voting Rights Act of 1993? VictorC (talk) 02:08, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Well before you can announce anything is a mile stone in his life, first you need to get a couple Reliable Sources that say that it is a mile stone in his life. Then because this article is written in summery style, you need to go to the related child article (And trust me there is a child article for every section within this article) and add it there. Then finally before adding something major to the main article, it is highly recommended, and even in line with the philosphy of being bold to bring it up here for other editors to discuss it and reach a majority consensus on whether to add it to the article. If you want a hassle freeway of adding it without anyone runnign in to revert, scream, or whatever, then that is the recommended way to go about adding it. Brothejr (talk) 12:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance, but who is ACORN? And why is it always spelled in CAPITAL letters here? If it's the name of a person, shouldn't it just be Acorn? QuackOfaThousandSuns (talk) 21:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this legit?

For some reason, I don't think a consensus has been reached in redirecting ethnic links concerning Obama's race. This kinda smells pooy [10]. I've already revered once, so I won't again lest some editor runs off to AN/I accusing me of edit warring. Any thoughts? Digital^Ninja 19:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

His father is a Luo, so linking to that ethnicity is more specific and improves the article. Four words later, a link to Kenya (which is where Kenyan redirects to) is provided. The original text (that you reverted to) is more specific and informative to the reader. --guyzero | talk 19:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

No worries. If anyone, it's the other editor that will be awarded the "Order of the Boot". Regards SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

My interpretation is this: if the person has readily identifiable and well known African roots, such as originating in Kenya (or Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Liberia, etc.) and the person is Black, nationality (not race) should be the preferred and more accurate method of scrutiny. Simply being Black is so much less specific. I feel that it's preferable to go with the most specific terminology. So if the person originated (ancestrally) from a tribe geographically from the land of Kenya called "Luo," it's by far a more informative way to label the entry in the article. I will update it to that effect if there are no objections. VictorC (talk) 20:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Absolutely correct, and that's the way it was before these edits. There's no need for it to be consistent with "white American" on his mother's side. --GoodDamon 20:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not as comfortable with the term "Black" as it's referring to Obama Sr. who is already from Africa as it is. I suggest we replace it simply with "Luo," if there aren't any objections. Additionally I get the feeling it clouds the issue, and hints that Obama Sr. is "Black American." For those who consider it pertinent, the context is abundantly sufficient to make matters (of race) obviously clear, (just by reading on through the rest of the article). VictorC (talk) 20:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Already done. That's the way it was before that spate of edits, and that's the way it should be. --GoodDamon 20:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Ugh. This is why I'm a deletionist. Digital^Ninja 20:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Though the edit-warring user has been blocked, I will add to the consensus that the wiki-link to Luo is more precise & more informative than the link to Black. - DigitalC (talk) 07:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Tony Blair

{{editprotect}} "Obama also established close relationships with prominent foreign politicians and elected officials even before his presidential candidacy, notably with former British Prime minister Tony Blair, whom he met in London in 2005"

This is the wikipedia quote. It states that Obama has close relationships with elected officals and then mentions Tony Blair as the former British PM. It should state "then current British Prime Minister" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.117.97 (talk) 01:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Your right, but the article is locked, so it can onlt be done by an admin.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it should be changed to "then current" from "former". ~ priyanath ^talk 01:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Done Risker (talk) 02:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is Obama's picture on the bottom of McCain on the main page?

Why is he below McCain? What is this implying? 71.113.139.130 (talk) 02:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the position can be reversed half-way through the 24 hours, to be fair? ~ priyanath ^talk 02:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

1. Alphabetical.
2. Obama has already been on the mainpage (in 2004); McCain hasn't.
3. Does anyone really think it matters? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It's implying that M comes before O. Grsz^{11 →Review!} 02:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• A javascript has now been applied to rotate the position of the two articles. Risker (talk) 02:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to Cyde for doing it - that's a good solution. Tvoz/talk 03:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

is it me or does it really matter? who cares where they are as long as its not claiming a side...this is honestly petty and useless--EmperorofBlackPeopleEverywhere (talk) 03:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Dead external links

Can those who have time run the external link checker and fix the broken links? There's a few that need updating. Tool's results. Thanks. Mahanga^Talk 02:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. For the record the McCain dead links where fixed shortly after I tagged them. — Dispenser 15:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutral sources

The text relies eleven different times on http://www.obama.senate.gov. Maybe at some point it might be good to look for more neutral sources.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Considering there are 158 footnotes, that's less than 6%. Of course, the necessity of a more reliable source also depends, to some extent, on what type of fact the source is supporting. On the other hand, if there is a better source to be had for any of those facts, we should use it. --Evb-wiki (talk) 02:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. If this source is used to support notability, then it's probably not the best source.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, hope this doesn't sound silly, but that's a dot-gov site. The government site on Obama are you sure that's not neutral? VictorC (talk) 03:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not independent of the subject. The notability guideline says: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." The issue is more notability than neutrality.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there really a question of Senator Obama's notability? Maybe one or two of the other 150ish reliable sources are sufficient to establish it. --Evb-wiki (talk) 03:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP requires reliable third-party sources for content. The web site obama.senate.gov is not a third-party source. See WP:SELFPUB.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the point isn't whether Obama is notable, that's self evident. I think that the point is that we are trying to make this article follow the Wikipedia protocols just as if it were any Wikipedia article (which actually, it is).VictorC (talk) 03:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a specific factual claim in mind? Is it something that can be reasonably questioned? By all means, tag it as {{dubious}}. --Evb-wiki (talk) 03:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Do we want to do this now, or do we want to wait until the storm is over? The best thing would probably be to make a list of the uses of that website in the article. I haven't looked at it thoroughly yet, but I think there may be some self-serving uses.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The nub is, Obama, while not actually the owner of the site, and it is a government site, and independently maintained it's still in a way "his" site. This creates a slight perception of conceivable bias. I think this is kind of an issue, not crucial, but still something to prompt further sourcing if possible. VictorC (talk) 03:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Some of the sourcing is for bills that were introduced by Obama. One is for the date he was sworn in as Senator. Some of them have additional references to support the same point. No big deal. Yes, it might be good to find better sources where needed, but there's no devious self-serving issue here. ~ priyanath ^talk 03:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Sure. Everything else being equal, a sterling third party source is better than a first-party claim, even perhaps for uncontroversial material. The uses I see are:

1. link to his official site - that's a WP:EL, not a citation 2. swearing in date - uncontroversial but might as well find neutral cite 3-6. Bills sponsored / votes - uncontroversial but verifiable. Replace or supplement with with neutral cite if available (though #5 has other cites that may verify it adequately). 7-8. Committee assignments - uncontroversial but verifiable. 9. Contents of November 2006 speech. Best to replace with neutral cite, but has not been challenged. 10. Obama and Brownback took AIDS test.... Best to find neutral cite. 11. Contents of Audacity of Hope with respect to views on religion. Best to cite 3rd party source to summarize book contents, with courtesy link to primary material. 12. Friendship with Tony Blair. Better to cite 3rd party source, particularly because this is a characterization and not a simple fact. 13. bottom link to official link - not a citation.

I don't see any of this as high priority or controversial but this is a FA so it would improve the article to find stronger sourcing on #2-12 (i.e. the eleven uses, with the possible exception of #5 if the other sources are sufficient). Wikidemon (talk) 03:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

If Obama gets elected President, maybe then he'll be considered notable. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll stipulate the notability if he'll change his mind about running for president.  :-) Ferrylodge (talk) 04:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

We can wait to nail down his notability, for about 24 hours. --Evb-wiki (talk) 04:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The text at George W. Bush relies 28 times on whitehouse.gov references. Maybe let's wait a bit and this thing will take care of itself :-) ~ priyanath ^talk 04:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

MLB.com is cited for facts in baseball articles, yet its neutrality is not challenged. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

That coming from an editor with Baseball in the name :) Actually, I would have the same concern about baseball. . . supposedly the all American sport but baseball has yet to account for its close friendship with that unrepentant dictator, Fidel Castro. Wikidemon (talk) 06:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

A Locked Article

When the race is over will this article be unlocked? Melia Nymph (talk) 02:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The consensus reached was to lock the articles on the four principals in the election for Election Day and to return to semi-protection when the results were in, which will be some time after the polls start closing at 6PM EST Tuesday. Some think it will be very early that evening, some very late. We'll see. Tvoz/talk 02:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Correction: the full protection wasn't supposed to happen unless activity warranted it, so apparently it was lifted, for now anyway. Tvoz/talk 06:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite prepared to lock it again shortly if necessary. My understanding of the consensus elsewhere was that these two pages (this and John McCain) would be fully protected today; that seems to have been the understanding of others, too. We don't want them to be hit by vandalism, even for a short time and with alert users reverting. I'm on Pacific time, and will see how it goes in the next hour or so. But to reply to the original question: if this article is fully protected, it will be so only during the election itself. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 07:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

That was my understanding too, actually, but on re-reading the "compromise" section of that AN/I thread more carefully, it seems to indicate that full prot wouldn't happen unless warranted. I'd prefer only sprot, but realistically I won't be surprised if full prot is deemed necessary in a few hours. Tvoz/talk 08:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, I have now fully protected the McCain article because of edit warring on top of the vandalism. Risker (talk) 07:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps then it was not a wise idea to have him on the main page today. Why have we two featured pages today? Are we going to do this every time every country in the world has an election? Giano (talk) 09:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

See the discussion at WT:TFAR, and Raul's comments further down that page. Basically, since both candidates' articles are FAs, we thought it would be a good advertisement for Wikipedia's work to show that we can have neutral, high-quality articles on contentious subjects. Its a rare case of WP:IAR being applied thoughtfully. And Raul was keen to say that this shouldn't be treated as any sort of a precedent; that said, if all the major candidates in another country's election have featured articles at the time of the election, I don't see why we couldn't do it again. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as Admins are running to protect it every 5 minutes, which is against Wikipedia's ethos, and there is already the inevtable charge of bias [11] I think it's a very unecessary and risky advertising ploy. So far the only thing being advertised is that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia everyone cannot edit. However, as you say, it has been discussed elsewhere and agreed, so that is rather that. Giano (talk) 10:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Military Experience?

No military career to cover. Resolved.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Sen. McCain's article had an extensive section on military experience, but none for this article. Is this fair? well, considering Obama doesn't have any military experience, I think it is. Thingg⊕⊗ 05:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Image

I propose changing the image to Image:BarackObama2005portrait.jpg. --Chinneeb_{my talk} 06:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Nicer image, but the turning of the body will make it look very strange on the main page. Risker (talk) 06:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)That's a wonderful portrait, IMO - more dignified yet more personal, and certainly higher quality in lighting and composition. However, in the interest of fairness and symmetry I think we should wait until after the election. McCain's portrait is similar to Obama's current one, a direct frontal shot against a textured blue-grey background. The two are not bad, but also not incredibly flattering either. Although there is no policy or guideline requirement to make candidates' articles look alike, I think it's most proper for the moment, and a better fit to appear side-by-side on the main page. So my 2 cents is ask again tomorrow at this time...Wikidemon (talk)

Who said anything about the main page? –thedemonhog talk • edits 06:41, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The turning of the body will also make it strange in this article, per WP:MOS#Images, since he'll be looking off the text. (And I'm always leery of images that haven't been vetted at FAC or FAR, even if Commons claims they're free: prefer to have an image reviewer check them out.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it not simply possible to flip the image horizontally in order to have him face the text? Elpasi (talk) 18:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

There are some rules that prohibits flipping images (unless they are then clearly marked as such). It was an issue at Palin's page shortly after her nomination as VP if you want to check this out. I dunno have time know; Gotta go voting.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Hint: check the (Palin)image hystory at commons.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Election Day

Well done to everyone who kept this article, as well as the other three candidates articles from melt down over these long months. After full protection is lifted, we'll have our hands full adding details about who won, who lost, why, etc etc etc :)

If I knew you all in real life, I'd buy you all a round; regardless of the fact that half you guys probably support prohibition ;-D

Good work; everyone. Digital^Ninja 06:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. Congratulations to all those who worked on these articles, getting them to FA, and keeping them that way. It's a real achievement! --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 07:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Two featured articles on the front page on the same day? That's a first for me, that's for sure. - Two hundred percent (talk) 07:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Except that this one is not full protected (yet) - see here. Tvoz/talk 07:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and thanks, Digital. I never understood the point of prohibition. Tvoz/talk 07:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		This barnstar is for every editor who assisted in accuracy, form, vandalism and POV fighting for Barack Obama for Election Day 2008, and who did it with civility, and just a dash of frustration and coriander. Moni3 (talk) 13:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• Another one I avoid like the plague, because deep down inside, I'm a sniveling little coward. Or maybe (I hope) y'all are brave here so I can be brave somewhere else. --Moni3 (talk) 13:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Remove semi-protection from this talk page?

I'd like to propose removing the semi-protection for this page, at least for a while until vandalism becomes problematic again, so that unregistered and new users can comment and provide editing suggestions. Are there sufficient eyes on this page now so that we could do so? Risker (talk) 14:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to lean towards no, to be honest. I think we'd unprotect it, be flooded with vandalism, and just end up having to re-protect again. GlassCobra 14:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand entirely where you are coming from; I rather doubt it would last for very long. Perhaps a subpage could be created, with a link at the top of this page, where unregistered and new users could comment, though. Thoughts? (I'm not in a position to do this myself, so it would ultimately be left to others to decide and act.) Risker (talk) 14:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

NOOO!!!! Do not even think about unprotecting it! I'm on Huggle now, and I'm getting IPs adding "OBAMA 08" and "OBAMA SUCKSSSS!!!!!" on articles about computer programming languages. I don't know about creating a subpage, but whatever you do, seriously, do not unprotect this page! J.delanoy^gabs_adds 14:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC) I thought you were talking about the actual article. Now I feel stupid... J.delanoy^gabs_adds 16:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) It can never hurt to try unprotection for a while. I'll be watching this page most of the day (as will many other editors, I'm sure), and the worst-case-scenario is we have to re-protect. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 14:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's probably best for me to withdraw this suggestion, as the article itself is receiving over 500 hits/minute as of 1500 hours UTC (10 a.m. ET), and is only going to get more as the day goes on. Risker (talk) 15:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I think my edit was one of the last ones to the page before it got protected. Yippee! Seriously, maybe this page should be protected while the election is going on. I undid some Obama-targeted vandalism earlier on an unrelated page, and I fear this will only continue. LovesMacs (talk) 15:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep it fully protected, pretty please. It's a featured article, anyone may propose edits on this talk page and the risk of people seeing gross stuff simply outweighs any potential benefits of even keeping it only semiprotected, looking at the vandalism from sleeper accounts so far today. On an unrelated note, risker, where's that 500/min figure from? Everyme 15:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Same as J.delanoy above. Everyme 16:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The suggestion about refers to this talk page, not the article itself. There really hasn't been very much vandalism on the article while it was semi-protected. Only one persistent vandal who kept going until he was blocked. About the talk page, I don't know. We will get plenty of slurs from IPs, but it's not a big problem when it's on the talk page.--Apoc2400 (talk) 15:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll unprotect the Talk page for a while as an experiment... Kaldari (talk) 17:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I give it about five minutes. ;) --GoodDamon 17:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah! Apologies, Risker, I thought you were talking about the article as well. Though admittedly it doesn't really change my opinion. :P I just think this whole atmosphere right now is too volatile; best to just keep things calm as best we can. GlassCobra 20:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Haha, alright, well I suppose if the best people can manage is incorrect junk like this, we can keep unprotection for a while. :P GlassCobra 20:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

lower the shields

Ok, considering this talk page hasn't been vandalised a single time since having all protection removed and that Mccain was bumped down to semi-prot hours ago with only a couple of bad edits since then, i think that this article should be put back down to semi-protection. Thoughts?--Jac16888 (talk) 18:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, my first thought is I'm glad to see I was wrong above. My second thought is, go for it. --GoodDamon 18:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

All four candidate articles are currently protected, which we agreed at AN/ANI on October 31 and again recently. There's also consensus that the articles on candidates, at least the two presidential candidates, should have the same protection level. So we won't have a consensus at a specific talk page, you need to go to AN/ANI. Cenarium ^Talk 18:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflicts)As an IP I can edit, but the semi-lock template is still was in place, perhaps that has misled vandals... Never-the-less they will appear, especially if the "shields are lowered"... just attracts them you know, and then they come to this page when the front page lock down occurs. 172.129.64.249 (talk) 18:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yup, this page and the three others are currently full protected and, barring unforseen delays they will be unprotected shortly after results are released. (I plan to spend a few minutes either drinking heavily or... well, drinking heavily. If another admin gets here first, they are of course free to do it themselves). ~ L'Aquatique! [^talk/_stats] 20:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

African-American, American, or Mullato

Closing. See FAQ, and remember that we are constrained to reflect what reliable sources report, and they overwhelmingly describe Senator Obama as "African-American."
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Mr. Obama was born in the United States, making him an AMERICAN. He does have ancestral ties to Africa, but, it is my opinion that an African-American is an individual born in Africa, whom has become an American Citizen. To be absolutely truthful, Mr. Obama is of "white" (caucasian) and black decent. Correct mention as to the making of history should not claim "the first African-American (or Black individual)". He is a mixture of Black and White.208.253.77.66 (talk)DMC —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC). Please read the FAQ above. This is a frequent question, and the answers are available there. In a nutshell: Obama refers to himself as an "African-American" and the mainstream media by and large refers to him the same way. Wikipedia reflects the consensus of reliable sources on the matter. --GoodDamon 19:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC) He refers to himself as a school? To the top of this topic. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, there are a LOT of people that refer to themselves as African-American because hundreds of years ago someone's ancestor may have been from Africa. Now it is use either because "black" is offensive to someone or because the person can qualify themselves as being better than people calling themselves American.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.6.18 (talk • contribs) Note that this is not a discussion forum. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC) What if Britney Spears called herself African-American? --71.225.111.4 (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC) What is important is what term the sources use. Anyone proposing a change in the terminology used in the article should provide some sources using the proposed terms. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 20:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC) It is important to note that Obama is also of Irish descent. I am Irish and live very close to the town where his ancestors are from. Do you suggest that we call him an African-Irish-American and whatever other countries he has descendents from. We must refer to Senator Obama by whatever he would like to be referred to by, thus, we must refer to him as an African-American. Bonzostar (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Well, there is that, and the fact that many other sources call him 'African-American'. Personally I think it would be more accurate to call him 'Kenyan-Irish-American', but who am I to slap terms on people, as I am not a reliable source. It's that simple; the case should be closed.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Reduce to semi-protection?

It seems sort of odd (and against our principles) that our featured article is sysop-only protected. coccyx bloccyx_(toccyx) 20:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

See this ANI discussion for the decision. GlassCobra 21:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Change wikilink about senate seniority

The wikilink of the word "junior" should be changed to point to junior senator, because the word "senior" in the John McCain article is wikilinked to senior senator, plus one day we may have a full article about specifically junior senators. NSK Nikolaos S. Karastathis (talk) 21:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• plus, the same change has already been done in the Main Page. NSK Nikolaos S. Karastathis (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• Seems to have been fixed. GlassCobra 21:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Junior Senator

Junior Senator redirects to Seniority in the United States Senate, please fix --Numyht (talk) 21:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be the correct target. Can you suggest something else that it should be pointing to? GlassCobra 21:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't get my point clear, instead of the current article that is links to Junior Senator, I was planning to link it like this Junior Senator --Numyht (talk) 21:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

Once the official results come in, I'd like the infobox and template I have set up at User:Therequiembellishere/President-Infoboxes to be put up. If anyone has any last-minute changes to make to it, please feel free and do so. Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

If he wins, yes. If he doesn't, that would be kind of weird. ~ L'Aquatique! [^talk/_stats] 00:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to be horrendously biased here but Obama will declared be the new President-elect by at most the early hours of next morning. As soon as it is I'd like these put up. I'll put them here for further reference. Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Well done. You beat me too it.FuriousJorge (talk) 03:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe change "take office" to "Inauguration" or "Inaugural date," something along those lines since it has an official name. Monkeysocks2 (talk) 03:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks you, I'll be saying that I helped his page update quickly for a long time now. I'm pretty sure the "taking office" is automated and can't be changed. And for an administrator editing the page, please fix the extra "" I missed after Sasha's name. I'm actually not sure what to do to fix it but IT shot to my attention when I saw this page again. Therequiembellishere (talk) 04:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama
President of the United States Elect
Assuming office January 20, 2009
Vice President	Joe Biden
Succeeding	George W. Bush
United States Senator from Illinois
Incumbent
Assumed office January 4, 2005 Serving with Richard Durbin
Preceded by	Peter Fitzgerald
Succeeded by	TBA
Member of the Illinois Senate from the 13th district
In office January 8, 1997 – November 4, 2004
Preceded by	Alice Palmer
Succeeded by	Kwame Raoul
Personal details
Born	Barack Hussein Obama II (1961-08-04) August 4, 1961 Honolulu, United States
Political party	Democratic Party
Spouse	Michelle Obama (m. 1992)
Children	Malia Ann (b. 1998) Sasha (b. 2001)</smal>
Residence(s)	Kenwood, United States
Alma mater	Occidental College Columbia College Harvard Law School
Profession	Attorney Politician
Signature
Website	Barack Obama - U.S. Senator for Illinois
More detailed articles about Barack Obama ———————————— Early life and career · (Family · Memoir) Illinois Senate career U.S. Senate career Presidential primaries · Obama–Biden 2008 Policy positions · Public image

Maybe change "take office" to "Inauguration" or "Inaugural date," something along those lines since it has an official name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkeysocks2 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Protecting also the talk page? It's a shame!

I've never seen before that you've protected a talkpage on wiki. Do you think that this is a democratic step? Perhaps this is acceptable in China, in the Balkans or in North Korea, but not in a democratic part of the world.

You'd be surprised jsut how much vandalism this page itself gets. Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Senior Senator Description

I think that it should be added in the page introduction that Joe Biden is the senior senator from Delaware, not just the senator from Delaware. N734LQ (talk) 02:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

he won

i wanted to say he won but it was blocked so i couldnt oh well... Binglebongle2000 (talk) 04:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. (Then again, I can't see how anyone could feasibly disagree that Obama won.) Why fully protect it? Why not semi-protect it, or, if it's at that high of risk, protect it from accounts newer than, say, 6 months or a year? Particularly, it's no longer the featured article, and it's not cool to protect it when there will be people wanting to update it the instant that Obama wins. -- Javawizard (talk) 04:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Because past experience on Wikipedia is that when power changes hands in elections we get edit wars on every conceivable related article (outgoing, incoming, position, election, country, worldwide list of heads etc...) between people who want to immediately list the newly elected person before they've taken office and those who want the articles to be accurate. And no amount of explanatory messages on talkpages has had any effect. Timrollpickering (talk) 04:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It's over. He won. Let the conflicting edit wars begin!  Esper  ^rant  04:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

He may have won but he hasn't taken office yet and won't for over two months. We went through all this chaos with the Australian election last year (and many others) and that only had about 8 days between election and changeover. Let's not have it again. Timrollpickering (talk) 04:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Presidential Infobox

Being way too assumptive here. Obama is not the 44th President on the United States, elect or otherwise. What if, God forbid, he were to die before January 20th? I suggest we avoid playing crystal ball, is there a better infobox for the president-elect specifically? -MichiganCharms (talk) 07:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

In my original infobox, I hadn't included it for that exact reason. Indeed, I find ordering officeholders to be superfluous whatever the case. Therequiembellishere (talk) 07:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we should wait til Jan 20 to add the Presidential Infobox. Digx (talk) 07:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That's not what we're saying at all. We think that ordering him as the 44th president is very presumptive. Much more so than calling him the elect. Therequiembellishere (talk) 07:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

ACtually, I'd just call him "President-elect" and only list Biden as "VP-elect". Biden's page will also have to be changed. -MichiganCharms (talk) 07:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Well he is actually the "president-designate" until the electoral college elects him. The reality is that Senator Barack Obama has not been elected anything yet. Only the presidential college delegates have been elected.Mattrix18 (talk) 11:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Semi

Can we get it back yet? Grsz^{11 →Review!} 04:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There will be plenty of eyes to revert vandalism. Unprotect it so it can be fully updated. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 04:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's best it remains fully protected. Which is a shame because I'd like to make some edits but I know we have to make some sacrifices for the greater good. In this case, the greater good is not getting murdered by vandals. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 04:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

first african-american

the article says he's the first african-american to be nominated for president, should be changed to first african-american to be elected president of the united states whenever an admin gets around to it.

CNN projects that Sen. Barack Obama has won election as the next president of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rch2005 (talk • contribs) 04:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes we know. We might want to wait until it is verified that the ballot was valid (as it obviously was) before posting. However, if you want an admin to add it in now, go ahead.WikiReverter How am I doing? 04:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

He is not the first african american president, he is the first one to win a presidential election, as he hasnt served as president yet. And the source cited doesnt say that he is the first president, rather the first nominee, can somebody change this language? Nableezy (talk) 04:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hence making him the first African-American Presidential-elect of the United States of America. Upon his swearing in on the 20th of January, 2009, he will be the first African-American President of the United States of America and the 44th President of the United States of America. He is also the first African American to win the nomination of a major party. This is simply the fact of the situation. Wording, however, must be done carely as to not incur any mistakes. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 04:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I have updated his BLP. Technically speaking, as of today he is the presumptive president-elect, not yet the president, nor even the president-elect. Anyone remember the U.S. Constitution and it's requirements that the Electoral College vote in Washinton, D.C. in the first week of December to officially make him the president-elect? Newguy34 (talk) 04:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

To satisfy that objection, I would say that while he is only the presumptive president-elect with reference to the electoral college (because in theory the electoral college could vote otherwise), he is the president-elect with reference to the election of the electors, who are usually party operatives and have traditionally voted the same way as the state voted. --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 05:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. For all intents and purposes, though, I think it is safe to refer to him as the "president-elect". Newguy34 (talk) 05:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Isn't he only half black? RealKG1990 (talk) 05:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, however, taxonomy standards have us refer to him as African-American rather than being African-American / Anglo-Saxon. I personally find taxonomy to be annoying and another form of division but that's besides the point. Barack Obama's heritage is described as being of African-American descent, therefore he is the first African-American presidential-elect of the USA. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② ^talk 05:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hugo Chavez is of African descent (partially). Certainly there have been others as well of partial African ancestry. Anyways, the answer is that he is not the first such to be elected.

i heard he didn't actually win

is this just a rumor or is it true? let's make sure to really look into it before we update the article to say he won. maybe he didn't actually win!

McCain's conceded the election. Therequiembellishere (talk) 04:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

yes..but that mean, he won . --O.waqfi (talk) 04:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he won. He's giving his victory speech right now. --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 05:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

go to cnn.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by DYlanReed (talk • contribs) 05:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason McConnell-Leech (talk • contribs) 05:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be some Vandalism on this page right at the top where it states his full name. I can't seem to edit it myself so am requesting someone else to please delete that part. The editors enthusiasm is obvious but not suited for this forum. --Arjun (talk) 05:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Full protection

This article needs full protection for at least a week unless someone wants to be on RVV duty 24/7.

Bloodbath 87 (talk) 5 November 2008 —Preceding undated comment was added at 05:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC).

For god's sake full-protect this article. This has been the most vandalized page as of today. It has a big lol factor but this is still wikipedia. Akira Tomosuke (talk) 06:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh jeez, sorry. I was the last edit in before the full-protect, and it was a rather embarrassing mistake (249802770). I thought I was reverting a vandal, but ended up undoing the actual revert by Khoikhoi. Again... Man, embarrassed. Terribly sorry! --Fo0bar (talk) 07:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Presidents Box

I tried to put in the box but it didn't work :( I'm not very good with wikipedia but someone please do it thanks Interlaker (talk) 05:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a quick question, shouldn't the infobox not call him the 44th President of the US until he actually takes the oath of office? Shouldn't nothing unexpected happen, the article can be updated in January to reflect that reality then. Imzadi1979 (talk) 07:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Everyone please take a deep breath

The article looks pretty good right now, so if we can just keep the vandals (and partisans) out of the editing business for a bit, we might just make it through the evening :) Please remember our civility pledge. Thanks. Newguy34 (talk) 05:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Senate seat

Will he be required to resign his seat in senate? I saw in Kennedy's article that he was in senate until december before he ascended to become president. I also heard Biden will resign his seat. Is this voluntary or compulsory for president/vice president elect? Maybe adding this to the article would help. w_tanoto (talk) 05:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Normal convention is that if he wishes to be inaugurated as president, which he most certainly will want to do, he must resign his senate seat between now and January 20. Illinois state law determines how his seat is filled. Same is true for Biden. Newguy34 (talk) 06:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It's compulsory that they can't hold the Senate seats in office, but there's no requirement to resign before then - there isn't really a legal office of "president-elect". (Of course they don't just sit around twiddling their thumbs until January 20th - they have a lot to do in the transitional period that will consume time.) If Biden hadn't contested his seat this year (or if he'd lost it) then he could have just stayed in the Senate until his current term expires on January 3rd and the new elected Senator would take over. Obama's term doesn't expire until 2011 so he will have to resign it. One factor in the timing may relate to who picks their successors. In most states the governor appoints a new Senator until a by-election can be held at the time of the next regular statewide election, but in a few I think the legislature has the power. With a lot of offices changing hands in the next couple of months (and I'm not sure if this affects Illinois or Delaware) then there may be a tactical decision on the timing to ensure the right person(s) select the successor. Equally Senate seniority is determined by the order in which Senators entered, so early resignations would give their appointed successors a head start. Timrollpickering (talk) 06:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

there isn't really a legal office of "president-elect". Yes, there is: see the 20th amendment. -- Zsero (talk) 06:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That uses the phrase but the use and capitalisation reads as a description to provide clarity when referring to a period that covers more than one President (and, crucially, more than one Veep who might act until there is a President available) than an actual legal office with responsibilities, restrictions etc... And crucially the phrase is only actually used when referring to the President elect (and Veep elect) at the point when they (should) actually take office as President. Timrollpickering (talk) 06:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Parents' marriage

I'd prefer it if the article detailed his parents' marriage, and what year they met. Right now there is no indication that they were married when Obama was born, only that they divorced at some unidentified later date (which year itself should be given).

What year did his parents meet — or at least, what years were they at UH? What year were they married? If they were married when Obama was born, his mother's name was probably Ann Dunham Obama (she is called "Mrs. Obama" in his birth announcement provided from the newspaper), not just Ann Dunham. What year did they divorce?

Thanks very much in advance. Softlavender (talk) 06:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to research it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks; I found the info on the mom's Wiki article -- I'll filter it in. Softlavender (talk) 07:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Update: The article is locked now, but the info is on my userpage [12]. I'll place it into the article when it gets unlocked. Softlavender (talk) 07:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. Softlavender (talk) 07:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

LOCK THIS ARTICLE

With people's emotions high and vandals on the prowl (proof of this is in the "history" of the article), please LOCK this article for the time being, until things calm down. --GOD OF JUSTICE 07:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

this article being locked at this point is a disgrace. Enough people should be watching it. Block the vandals, not everyone else. --dab (𒁳) 07:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Person of African Descent

I don't think this is an appropriate term, since all humans are of African descent. He shoud be called the first African American elected President. Cadwaladr (talk) 07:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Your first sentence is silly, it's like saying we're all related because we all descended from Adam and Eve. However, the lead kind of restates itself, so there is some redundancy that could be trimmed. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't happen to believe in Adam and Eve; I share the opinion of most biologists that humans evolved on the African continent. Cadwaladr (talk) 07:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The phrase is awkward and not commonly used (as opposed to African American). I tried a re-word [13] .. cheers, --guyzero | talk 08:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Your comparison is silly because Cadwaladr's point is based on reality, while yours is based on fiction.--Svetovid (talk) 10:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

I have locked the article for 6 hours. Please stop reverting and discuss it here. Thank you. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 07:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen more people are vandalising than warring. Therequiembellishere (talk) 07:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

A vandal got in [[Category:American people of Muslim descent]] before the lock. This needs removed. --Targetter ^{(Lock On)} 07:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I mentioned above that I was that "vandal", and thought I was reverting that category add, but ended up adding it back instead. I sincerely apologize. --Fo0bar (talk) 07:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

So your reversion was made in error? Because if it was, everything changes. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 07:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It was. I saw Khoikhoi what I thought was repeatedly adding [[Category:American people of Muslim descent]] back in, but I had the diff sides incorrect. I did what I thought was a 3rd revert to his "vandalism" and intended to move it to Talk, but then noticed I was in error (but by then you had locked the article). Again, I'm very sorry for the disruption this caused. --Fo0bar (talk) 07:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It is not a problem. Everyone makes mistakes. (For example, some rather unobservant admin just full-protected an article that did not need to be protected....) J.delanoy^gabs_adds 07:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

... and a rather unobservant non-admin who didn't trace back the entire history of the vandalism (me). Sorry for the screw up. --Targetter ^{(Lock On)} 07:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

We're all horrible people! Hooray! --Fo0bar (talk) 07:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This article should be only semi-protected there are numerous editors and admins watching this page for vandalism, which can be taken care of in normal fashion, I don't see an overloaded content dispute for the need of full protection.▪◦▪≡SiREX≡^Talk 07:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The article is back to semi. I did not realize that the last reversion was a mistake. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 07:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

African-American

Objectively speaking, Obama is of mixed race. I realize that people of mixed race are often / commonly identified as "black" and hence "AA" in the USA. I don't have a problem with the article pointing this out, and quoting some reference showing that Obama self-identifies as AA. The objective statement will still be that he is the first president of mixed race, while any identification of Obama as "AA" will need some qualification and reference. I am sure we can do this. I am not saying he "isn't" AA, I am just calling for a properly referenced statement. I have also been told that, not surprisingly, this has come up before. Well, if ithas, the thnig to do would be to put the best reference that came up into the article. If the point remains completely unreferenced, it will just come up again and again. --dab (𒁳) 08:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This might help you understand why the designation African-American is appropriate for Obama. There is a paragraph on him that has three citations as to why this is so. Plus, it's also a matter of self-identification. Softlavender (talk) 08:51, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

You are implying that I do not understand the issue. I do, and I have looked at the African-American article. But even if I was completely clueles, this wouldn't make go away the fact that the article lacks a proper reference caregorizing Obama as "AA". So you think this is self-evident to anyone at all familiar with US society? The very paragraph you just pointed me to has

In the 1980s, parents of mixed-race children began to organize and lobby for the addition of a more inclusive term of racial designation that would reflect the heritage of their children.

This means that, yes, in the 19th century, and even before 1960, Obama would doubtlessly have been considered black. But this is 2008. Try using google. here is a time.com article that makes clear that Obama's race is a matter of debate, and less than obvious.

• "Black, in our political and social vocabulary, means those descended from West African slaves," wrote Debra Dickerson on the liberal website Salon. -- meaning that it doesn't apply to Obama, who isn't descended from West African slaves, at all
• "If I'm outside your building trying to catch a cab," [Obama] told Charlie Rose, "they're not saying, 'Oh, there's a mixed race guy.'" -- implying that this would be the correct description, but lingering race prejudice rooted in the "one-drop rule" in the popular mind makes "black" anyone who isn't pale pink.

The official US statistics (as of 2006) has

• Black or African American: 12.4%
• Two or more races: 2.0%

Obama is clearly a member of the 2% multiracial US Americans, and thus not of a member of the 13.4% black US Americans. --dab (𒁳) 08:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I have inserted the missing references myself now. As far as I am concerned, this resolves the issue. --dab (𒁳) 09:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent; case closed. Softlavender (talk) 09:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we agree that he is not of "Afrcan-American descent"? This keeps showing up in the article, and is clearly misuse of the term African-American, as none of his parents, grandparents, etc were African-American. I searched through the archives, but I couldn't find this issue mentioned.Austin512 (talk) 13:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I wish I'd caught this earlier. This is a perennial topic here, but we must adhere to WP:BLP, which requires us to use only reliable sources. And the reliable sources almost all refer to Barack Obama as "African-American." The exceptions are articles specifically detailing his lineage, some of which are used as reliable sources lower on the page, where we detail his lineage. It's not up to us to calculate this or that percentage of Obama's African and non-African ancestry. To do so is original research, a big no-no. We simply reiterate what the reliable sources say. --GoodDamon 14:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

All good points, Good. If the United States Senate considers him African American, that's good enough for me. Softlavender (talk) 15:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand that USA citizen have a slightly other understanding about "races" than in Europe. The word "race" is not used in my country (about persons), but I have problem to understand how a son of a white women can be "non-white". Wikipedia should be universal, and therefore the "race issue" should be omitted. I think that would be the smartest for everybody and a step forward. Jakro64 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Might consider locking the article while Americans are asleep

... because the watchful eyes aren't here then. Until East-Coasters wake up, there's some vandalism going on. I'm in Hawaii but even here it's midnight now. So I suggest you East-Coasters rouse yourselves immediately, or consider a lock. Just my tuppence. Softlavender (talk) 09:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there will be a lot of vandalism to this article while "Americans are asleep", since we can safely assume that most people disappointed by the election result are in the USA. The possibility of enthusiastic vandalism to the George W. Bush article is probably more significant :oP --dab (𒁳) 10:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyhow, it is semi protected and only established users can edit. Also, in light of recent happenings, it is in the watch-list of many, so no worries. --Googlean ^Results 10:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd even say that most vandalism is likely to occur when Americans are awake :) -- lucasbfr ^talk 11:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

You know... Europeans edit wikipedia too, we were watching... SGGH ^speak! 12:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Why lock it? Some of us non-americans are also anti-vandals. I don't like vandals, and watch them either from UK or Indonesia (depending where I am). w_tanoto (talk) 12:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Because vandals tend to lurk in the wee hours and the dark of late night, and because this article has been unbelievably active since the election was called. Softlavender (talk) 15:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Question about being "first"

Is Obama the first democratically elected national leader of African (i.e. black, please excuse my political incorrectness) descent in the history of western civilization beginning with ancient Greece and Rome? Thank you.--wooddoo ]] [[User_talk:Wooddoo-eng|Eppur si muove (talk) 11:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Seems so. Gaston Monnerville was a heartbeat away from being President of France during his eight year tenure as President of the French Senate (President of Senate becomes interim President according to the Constitution), but that the closest thing I can think of. Hektor (talk) 14:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That claim was made on MSNBC and CNN last night (I say without references). With a reference, that deserves mention in the article.LedRush (talk) 15:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This is very hard to make any definitive statement on. In a lot of countries no-one applies a "one drop and you are it" rule of ancestry (for example the British actor Peter Davison has said in interviews that one of his grandfathers was black, but I've never seen Davison himself considered as anything other than white) and it's hard to check every single elected leader's ancestry. But also what defines "western civilisation"? The modern state of South Africa was a European creation, for a long time often mentioned in the same breath as Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Timrollpickering (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to cite the absence of something. But in any case, it's easy to see that Nelson Mandela's election was major, and significant. Additionally, though Obama had to overcome many obstacles to his successful candidacy, no one will try to argue that Mandela had an easier time getting elected than Obama. Thirty years as a political prisoner is a big obstacle. I think we might well say that Obama is at least the second African leader of a nuclear power (Mandela preceding him) but again to cite the absence of something (in this case the absence of African presidents) isn't really feasible. Can anyone suggest how to cite that something has never happened? VictorC (talk) 20:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

What about Jean-Bertrand Aristide and René Garcia Préval in Haiti, is there a valid reason to consider that they do not meet the definition? And there might be others in other caribbean or central american countries. Hugo cantu (talk) 16:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There is Michaëlle Jean but she was not elected... ; but if the statement comes back to ancient Rome, I would be extremely surprised if there was no Roman emperor with African ancestry. Hektor (talk) 18:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This article cites him as "arguably the first black leader of any white-majority nation in recorded history." The Christian Science Monitor is a pretty reliable source. Important to add.--Gloriamarie (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Michaëlle Jean is proof that such an assertion is not true. -MichiganCharms (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Jean is neither elected nor a leader in any real sense of the word. Also, if reliable, verifiable sources say it, we can include it.LedRush (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama II ?

I did not know his name is Barack Hussein Obama II. Can we get a citation on the "II"? Timneu22 (talk) 11:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Check the FAQ just above this page. Starczamora (talk) 11:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This didn't really help. I couldn't find useful information in that section or from the link provided in it. Timneu22 (talk) 18:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The link provided in the FAQ is to his Birth Certificate which indicates his legal name at birth was Barack Hussein Obama II. I'm not sure what other useful information you require? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Time to work on splitting this article

The article is now 131kb, and will only get longer, so it is a good idea to begin discussions on what sections should be moved into a secondary article, and what sections can be trimmed and referred to the secondary articles. Currently it takes me (with DSL) 33 seconds to load, and 49 seconds to load the edit page. That's pretty significant, and would only be slower for those with lesser ISPs. I would suggest following the style of the most recent Presidential article, George W. Bush, and maybe create additional secondary articles as well as moving more of the information into those secondary articles, such as Early life and career of Barack Obama. The section on his early life in this article seems longer than it should be when another article exists on the same subject, and compared with Bush's. Other articles, such as Public perception of Barack Obama, Criticism of Barack Obama, and when appropriate, separate articles for Domestic policy and Economic policy of the Obama administration, could possibly be created as well. For Bush, early life is a separate article from career, so maybe it should be split into two here, as well? Shouldn't the naming of the secondary articles follow the same standard, they aren't doing so currently. Bush's secondary articles are named differently than Obama's. (as my initial edit of this shows, until I dug deeper and found that some articles existed already, just named differently) Ariel♥Gold 12:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This article was written in summery style and there is a daughter article going deeper into detail for every section. In the past, the editors tried to only keep the most important things in his life in the main article and relegated everything else, including in depth discussions, to the daughter article. If you check each section within the main article, you will also see a daughter article at the top of the section. Brothejr (talk) 12:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That's understood, it is a featured article, after all, but my point is that the article is already far too long by WP:SIZE standards, and as President elect, Obama's article will be expanded significantly in the future. Thus, it is time to prune some of the areas that have secondary articles and move that information into the secondary articles, obviously keeping the key details, but at the same time, helping to reduce the article's size. Again, the example of Barack_Obama#Early_life_and_career, compared to Bush's: George_W._Bush#Childhood_to_mid-life and George_W._Bush#Early_career. As President, the information on those areas will be expanded, and to keep the article down in size they could be split into two separate articles using the same naming conventions used with Bush's, and thus reduce this article's size. (The fifth and sixth paragraphs in the early life section, for example, are not particularly necessary when a secondary article already exists that should cover that time period in depth. The same with the third-to-last paragraph.) After 8 years as President, Bush's article is the same size that Obama's is currently, so obviously some things that may have been important prior to the election, could be moved into secondary articles, without compromising the integrity of the FA status. Note that this is in no way a criticism of the article at all, but more of a "looking forward" suggestion. Ariel♥Gold 13:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Ariel. Let's make the decisions on this article that allow it to exist in the long-run on par with other presidents. The earlier we make the changes, the better the daughter articles will be. Also, it's not a bad idea to try to conform titles of daughter articles, but obviously different presidents face different challenges and outcomes, so many articles will remain very different.LedRush (talk) 15:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I completely disagree with the concerns over size. The "readable prose" of the article (which WP:SIZE is concerned with) is only 30 kilobytes. Regular editors should continue to monitor new additions to make sure that they agree with WP:WEIGHT, including (if necessary) moving things to child articles, but there is no need for the article to be split. I recommend using the page size script by adding the following to your monobook.js file:

importScript('User:Dr_pda/prosesize.js'); //[[User:Dr_pda/prosesize.js]]

-- Scjessey (talk) 15:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm totally fine with the current length -- it's neither overlong nor unwieldy nor difficult to follow. The huge bulk of the putative "size" of the article is all of the incredibly detailed back matter and additions. The prose of the article itself is only about 35 KB, which is fine for a President. I think once he is in office it may become necessary to spin off info on his presidency. Meanwhile, if people find the article feeling long, just add subheadings or subsubheadings for clarity and organization and ease of reading. EDIT: Although, I do understand concerns about page-loading time, so yeah, need to spin-off and split for that reason, or else trim a lot of the tables and charts and footnotes and categories and external links and references and such. Softlavender (talk) 15:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's my thinking, while I'd love to prune out more stuff from the article, I do know that what's in there now is basically a bare bones information on him. Like you said, it is already is written in summry style (I.E. bare bones descriptions of the really major portions of his life) and there are already have daughter articles that are sub articles of the main page in each section (I.E. Early life and career of Barack Obama, Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama, United States Senate election in Illinois, 2004, United States Senate career of Barack Obama, List of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate, and so on)). So when a person wants to read more about that section of hsi life, all they have to do is click on the sub article to go on. About the only thing I can think of to reduce the size, and even then it might not reduce it that much, is to work on the wording of what is already there. Maybe we can shorten the prose a bit. However, I don't see us really being able to shorten the article that much without really removing a lot of basic major information. Brothejr (talk) 18:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to rehash this... The article has 30k of readable prose which is well within WP:SIZE's guidelines. There are also 38k of references and that is just the references themselves, not the text from the cite templates, so it's probably safe to double that 38k to account for the ref tags and use of cite templates, the remainder of the size of the article is the multitude of infoboxes, templates, categories, other languages, etc, etc that exist at the bottom of the article. However, all of that is just a pittance compared to the almost 400k of images that are used in this article. We could trim this article down to just the images and have it be less than 1k of wikitext, but it would still load as a 400k article and still take ages to load via modem because of the images alone. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Senate

• When and how will he leave his senator mandate. Does he have to resign ? How will is replacement be designated ? Is it on January 20 or before ? Hektor (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that the governor will appoint an interim replacement. Not sure when he officially leaves office as Senator, though. --GoodDamon 14:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

See United States Senate#Vacancies. Same applies to Biden. Gimmetrow 14:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Full name

As regards this reversion of this edit: the obvious reason why it is unnecessary to clarify what people normally call Mr. Obama is that the title of the page, the infobox and the remainder of the article makes it obvious what he is normally called. Add to that normal encyclopedic practice, and if for any reason this affected the rationale here, that months from now the use of "Barack Hussein Obama" will probably not be most strongly associated with smear tactics by his opponents.

The notion that the "First + Last name" convention may be alien to non-Americans is moot. Readers may be equally be confused what an election or office but they can find out elsewhere on Wikipedia. All that needs to be said is that he is American. BigBlueFish (talk) 14:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hits

I thought the editors of this page might be interested in how many times this article was read in the last couple of days. In total, up until now, its had 2 473 605 views, with a peak of almost 300 000 in the hour after the result was called.

Amazing work everyone! henrik•talk 15:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Well, I think that shows how important our work here at Wikipedia is folks!The Fiddly Leprechaun (talk) 15:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That's really interesting, and heartening to see Wikipedia being used as a source of information. But does it worry anyone that a huge number of people decided to research Barak Obama only after he had been elected :-) DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

"While he claims to be black he is in fact Arabian"

This claim is in the article and it needs to be removed ASAP. Obama is not in any way Arabian, and the way in which that claim is phrased seems almost anti-arabic/anti-semitic to me. Wikipedia is no place for this kind of Gayle Quinnell talk. There are so many layers of protection on this article (and I'm in a bit of a hurry right now) so I'm not going to do it myself, but somebody please help! Also perhaps we should have a bot that would revert any edits to this article containing the A-word since so many of the loony rightwingers seem to be questioning his ethnicity.

Stonemason89 (talk) 15:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone has added that he is the first Arabian to become President. Unless this is verified, it should be removed, he is not Arabian. ~~

Don't worry, those vandalisms get removed immediately on this article. They were gone within less than two minutes. Softlavender (talk) 16:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if you traced those postings to someone at Fox News, they've got a record of actions like that. He's American, whose heritage is Kenyan! Melia Nymph (talk) 16:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

To be factual, Obama is bi-racial (African-American & Caucasian American). However, we are not gonna go there 'again' (See FAQ above). GoodDay (talk) 16:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There are ALREADY 5 separate sections/discussions on "President-elect" on this page

Please read them before adding your comments to any of them or before starting yet another section on the subject. Thanks. It avoids redundancy and repetitive discussions/explanations. Softlavender (talk) 16:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you just combine them? Melia Nymph (talk) 16:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Because we can't tamper with posts made by others. If you feel like summarizing the discussions here, fine and great. Softlavender (talk) 16:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Nope, Softlavender - no problem with moving the discussions all together, as I see someone has done. Tvoz/talk 18:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Consensus on Image

For most of yesterday (and the recent past), one photo of Obama (Image 1, below) was used and it has recently been changed (to Image 2, below). I think we need to come to a concensus on which to use because both are used in a range of different articles. I even changed one yesterday claiming it should match that which is used in the official biographical page.

Here are the two photos in question:

Image 1

Image 2

File:BarackObama2005portrait edit1.jpg

Image 3 (edit of Image 2 to reduce flash highlights

Hopefully we can reach some concensus on this and use one of them throughout Wikipedia. Currently, Image 1 has more links to it from legitimate articles, though this can change since there are Wikipedians going around asking to replace it with Image 2. ~ Wadester16 (talk) 16:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 1 - I believe this is a quality portrait. It is straight on and shows details of the face, etc. Image 2 is cropped in an odd way and is not centered at all. It is also not from the front. ~ Wadester16 (talk) 16:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 - At least until January 20th, 2009. By then Obama's presidential portrait will be revealed. GoodDay (talk) 16:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 1 - Just because image 2 is compositionally unsound (he should be facing the page, not away from it). Also, Image 1 gives a clearer view of his face. --Loonymonkey (talk) 16:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 or any variant thereof- While the composition is not perfect at least it looks more official. Dr.K. (talk) 16:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 - While the composition could be better, I find the second image has much more pleasing lighting and also superior resolution. (behold, the election that REALLY counts. :p) TheOtherSiguy (talk) 16:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 - I was almost swayed by the compositional problems, but I agree with TheOtherSiguy -- the overall more pleasing visual effect of Image 2 trumps it for me. Image 1 looks almost like it could be a mug shot, heh. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 3 - the lighting and the tonal range of number 2 outweighs the fact that compositionally it would be better is he were facing the other way. Mfield (talk) 17:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 Prefer the more relaxed facial expression. --Janke | Talk 17:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 3 (really Image 2 Edit 1). Everyme 17:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2. Image one looks like a passport photo...image 2 is much more asthetically pleasing.LedRush (talk) 17:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 1 - Overly lit and his grin is taught, but his face fills the image better with more detail and symmetry. Since both images have problems, I hope that a better portrait is uploaded ASAP. Modocc (talk) 17:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 - better tonal range, but cropping the left and bottom would probably improve it. de Bivort 17:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 - The lighting and tone are more pleasing, the flag makes it look more official and his smile looks more spontaneous.— Ѕandahl ♥ 18:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

If Image 2 is legally ours to use, I would go with it. Tvoz/talk 18:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image 2 as long as there are no copy write issues with the image (We've already run into that problem with other Obama pictures in the past!) Brothejr (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Image2 - fits better with other presidential portraits on the list. None of the others are passport-style. DewiMorgan (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

President-elect vs. president-designate discussions

Grouping them altogether here. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

President elect?

Obviously he seems to have crossed the mark, but shouldn't we wait for McCain to concede? YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 04:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

"President-elect" should be capitalized in the first sentence. Coemgenus 04:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe concession is a mere formality but I could be wrong.— Ѕandahl ♥ 04:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama is the projected President elect for now but the news media projections have no official bearing. When he becomes the actual president elect, and the effect of the opponent's likely concession, are technical questions. It may not be until after the electoral college.... We ought to get this one right. Wikidemon (talk) 04:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I would concur with the idea he is not president elect until after Dec. 15(?) when teh electoral college votes -- then it is official. Until then anything can happen.Plhofmei (talk) 04:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I know, but I'm saying this because an admin has edited through protection to say that Obama is President Elect. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 04:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Could we please get a quick ruling of this, and perhaps apply it to some of the other articles? We should have thought of this before the election, but exactly how do we refer to Obama: (1) between now and the states' official election announcements; and (2) between the official election results and December 15? That should be applied to all the election-related articles, because people are editing them all to call Obama the winner, President-elect, etc., when it is not technically true. No great harm done but it does make Wikipedia look a little amateurish, and might be teaching millions of children and some adults the world over the wrong details about the political process.Wikidemon (talk) 04:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

McCain just conceded to Obama, it seems fine to call him President Elect now. Parsecboy (talk) 04:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There are no rulings on Wikipedia, only consensus. I think it's unfortunate that we had to fully protect this article (it wasn't my decision), but with McCain's concession it's not ambiguous any longer. Steven Walling (talk) 04:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

McCain does not have the power to confer this. Timrollpickering (talk) 04:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Multiple reputable news organizations are identifying him as the President-elect, that should be enough Nableezy (talk) 04:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That's good evidence, but it may be a technical question, not something to be sourced. Then again there may be no official point at which someone becomes a president-elect, in which case the sourcing is what counts. Does anyone remember their American Government class? Wikidemon (talk) 04:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many news organisations say so, we can't say something that we know ain't so. He won't be President-elect until 15-Dec, just as he wasn't the D nominee until the convention. Before the convention I think we called him the presumptive nominee; now he should be presumptive President-elect. -- Zsero (talk) 04:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Good. Well, for those of us who don't remember our history class, is there an authoritative citation on that? If so we can put it in the FAQ, because this is sure to come up regularly between now and then across a wide range of articles. Maybe put it in a MOS or an essay, if it is not already there. Wikidemon (talk) 04:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the difference now is that American presidents have traditionally been referred to as the president-elect as soon as the election is conceded. Therequiembellishere (talk) 04:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Is "President-elect" actually a position formally defined anywhere? There's all manner of dates it could be - when the results are declared & certified (and I mean declared by the actual counting officials not "projected" by the media or concessions), when the electoral college casts its votes or when those votes are officially counted & accepted in January - but if "bloke who will be the next President" isn't a position formally defined we could be descending into original research if we're making a bold statement on when someone is or isn't it. Most of the ~elect usage on Wikipedia is frankly a fudge to dampen post election edit wars rather than reflecting actual usage. Timrollpickering (talk) 04:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

i feel like a bit of a dork but... what does President-elect actually mean? pre-elect or post-elect? (obviously post) I'm not from USA so don't know if this is a common-usage term or not... but i got baffled on the first sentence. Boomshanka (talk) 05:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

And "presumptive" is a total misuse of the word. It means one is presumed to the post but can be displaced by another coming forward. "Apparent" is the more accurate term - an apparent only loses their place by their own death or actions. Timrollpickering (talk) 05:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

All of you get over it, the man has won. Your rhetorical bickering doesn't undo that, and "President-elect" is a accepted political term in the United States. Steven Walling (talk) 05:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with opinions on the election itself, and the assumptions of bad faith that it is are one of the most annoying aspects of Post Election Edit War Syndrome. It is about presenting the information correctly and accurately, especially when there is a difference between the constitutional position and how the media present it. Timrollpickering (talk) 05:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with "rhetorical bickering" but factual accuracy. Obama is not the president-elect until he is chosen by the Electoral College (United States) on Dec. 15. - auburnpilot talk 05:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

"President Elect" from: Newsweek[14] U.S. News & World Report[15] There are lots more that meet WP:RS. ~ priyanath ^talk 05:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I've gotta agree. It is the most widely used term between now and 20 January not just 15 December – 20 January. Therequiembellishere (talk) 05:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Technically, there is no such thing as the "constitutional" position of president-elect. It is largely terminology used by the public as a way of differentiating the next president from the incumbent and/or the other losing candidate (if they are different). Therequiembellishere (talk) 05:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It isn't over until I give my concession speech on this issue :) Nevermind.... I withdraw my objection. Wikidemon (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's what Reliable Sources call it. Whatever the technicalities, whatever the opinions, Wikipedia depends on "Reliable Sources". All the networks are calling him "President Elect". ~ priyanath ^talk 05:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Well this is not what our President-elect article is saying about the US:

One is officially the president-elect only after being chosen by the Electoral College, but unofficially the person chosen in the November general election is called the President-elect even before the Electoral College meets.

Clearly some clarity on this is needed as the articles are currently out of sync. Can people also take a look at the proposed policy Wikipedia:Post-election edit war syndrome which largely emerged because of similar situations in several other elections. Timrollpickering (talk) 05:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources (major U.S. newspapers) have called the winner "President Elect" in November of election year since at least the 1840's and that should be our guide, not the original research of some editors as to "proper" usage of the term. Edison (talk) 05:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

←Reliable sources ALL refer to him as President-elect - it is common parlance, and it is what the source articles used for citation say. It is unnecessarily confusing to say "presumptive' and since it is not in contention it is just a formality. We should go with our sources and common sense. He won the election, he is the president-elect until Jan 20. Tvoz/talk 05:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Right now, Google News has 418 hits on "president elect obama" and zero hits when "presumptive" is added to it. I think we should just call him president elect, no further qualification. Wasted Time R (talk) 06:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what RS are calling him, when we know they're wrong. And it makes a difference. Think what happens if he dies or resigns after 15-Dec, or at least after the votes are counted on 6-Jan: Biden automatically takes his place as President-elect. But what if it happens before 15-Dec? The answer is that the DNC would have to pick a new candidate, who might very well not be Biden, and then hope that all Democratic electors obey instructions and vote for whomever they pick. If enough Democratic electors disregard the DNC pick (since they're not pledged to do so) the election goes to the House. That's the difference between a presumptive President-elect and an actual President-elect. -- Zsero (talk) 06:16, 5 November 2

"President-elect" before the Electoral College vote??

The description of Obama as president-elect is nonsense. Obama may well have won the popular vote. But he isn't president-elect yet. He won't be that until the Electoral College votes for him- assuming that it does. Anything could happen between now and then.

JohnC (talk) 04:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Next time, add your thing as a seperate discussion topic instead of slapping it on here. And for your information, Obama did in fact win. It's over. Which means someone needs to go through that mound of partisan crap that constitutes the majority of this article and trim it.  Esper  ^rant  04:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, one does not become president-elect until one is voted in by the Electoral College. MarixD (talk) 05:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Seoul Guy, may I suggest you read your copy of the U.S. Constitution, it's all set down right there.Ratherthanlater (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources (nationally read U.S. newspapers) have used the term "President-elect" as soon as the results are counted in November as far back as the early 1800's, as is seen by a Google News search. Obama is the President elect. Edison (talk) 05:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed compromise wording: ...is the junior United States Senator from Illinois and the projected President-elect of the United States of America. (changes emphasized). Emax0 (talk) 07:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

My two cents here most of the news articles refer to him as elected president not president-elect. Dmckeehan (talk) 07:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the President-elect article, "more accurately he is the president-designate until the electoral college meets and votes." Just a thought. Prothonotar (talk) 07:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

We don't seem to have a president-designate article and if we did, it would just be a stub. Unless somebody wants to work on this then I would probably not suggest using it since it would be confusing, even though it seems like it is the proper term. Emax0 (talk) 07:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking that presumptive president-elect might be an accurate term, although I've never seen it used. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 09:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that presumptive president-elect might be an accurate term, but it seems now universal that everyone in the media and even Obama himself is using "president-elect" even though he will not be elected until the Electoral College meets on December 15. This isn't about "anything happening between now and then." It's more about accurately reflecting United States laws and the Constitution. The question is, do we go along with the common usage, even though it is wrong or do we stand our ground with accuracy. --Crunch (talk) 12:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think accuracy is most important. We should use presumptive president-elect up until the Electoral College votes - otherwise it is deceptive. We need to use terminology that reflects the actual situation regardless of what the media is using. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Fiddly Leprechaun (talk • contribs) 15:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

We should not be the "only accurate and correct" source of information, in disagreement with every newspaper, magazine, and news channel out of some original research notion of what is objective truth. Wikipedia follows the usages of reliable sources, and they are using "president elect." Google news search shows 16,817 occurrances of Obama "president-elect" -presumptive [16] and only 4 for Obama "presumptive president-elect" of which one is a spoof and one is about Bush. Edison (talk) 17:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

"Presumptive" President-elect distinction

A note to all editors: Barack Obama is NOT the "President-elect" until the Electoral College convenes. For now, he is merely "presumptive" President-elect, akin to a "presumptive" party nominee who has been **projected** to accumulate the necessary amount of delegates to secure a nomination.

This is a constitutionally-defined distinction, as Joe Biden's role as "next-in-line" does not take effect until Obama is officially annointed "President-elect". Igarvey (talk) 06:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The term 'President-elect' appears nowhere in the Constitution, as far as I can tell. See above for RS that report his status of President-elect, officially or otherwise Nableezy (talk) 06:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. See the 20th amendment. President elect and Vice President elect are constitutional positions, and Obama and Biden don't become those things until at least 15-Dec, and perhaps not until 6-Jan. -- Zsero (talk) 06:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Your right the term appears, but it is nowhere defined in that amendment or anywhere else in the Constitution. And still I have yet to see a RS that makes the distinction of presumptive and current pres-elect. BBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, hell even FOX News report him as being the President-elect. Nableezy (talk) 17:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand the distinction you're trying to make here, but it's very technical and no WP:RS uses it. Right now, Google News has 418 hits on "president elect obama" and zero hits when "presumptive" is added to it. I think we should just call him president elect, no further qualification. Wasted Time R (talk) 06:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This is being discussed above - please stop making the change until we reach consensus. Tvoz/talk 06:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

And I agree with Wasted Time R as discussed above - this is common parlance and all sources refer to him as President-elect. This technicality will only confuse, and is unnecessary. Tvoz/talk

He's going to win, so what's the point of stating "presumptive"? To be "accurate" for the next couple hours until they've finished counting? A complete waste of time. If it were up to me, it'd say "Obama is the president of the United States." Orane (talk) 06:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Not for the next few hours; he won't be president-elect until 15-Dec, and he won't be president until 20-Jan. -- Zsero (talk) 06:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it is appropriate to use the term "president-elect" here without the word "presumptive". But other edits in Wikipedia I have seen are inappropriate (e.g., adding him to the list of presidents). Being less than technically correct on this point may aid in clarity. Newguy34 (talk) 06:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The electoral college's system of choosing electors to then cast votes for president is a historical anomaly that has no effect on modern general elections. Electors - either by tradition or legal mandate - vote for the candidate that their state did. This is well summarized in Electoral College (United States) and the referenced Green Papers. Besides that, given that the NY Times, CNN, The Economist, BBC, etc. are saying either that he is the President-elect, that he has been elected, or simply that he won (all without qualifiers), we don't need to obsess over this anymore than they do. Appropriate treatment is a footnote in the bottom of the article, and "President-elect" in the lead.--chaser - t 06:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, and we are to be proper. If Obama were to die tomorrow (God forbid), the distinction would be made eminently clear. Obama was the "presumptive nominee" before the convention of Democratic delegates, and he is the "presumptive President-elect" until the convention of the Electoral College. Igarvey (talk) 06:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Our objective is verifiability, not truth. If the reliable sources say he "won" the election and is the "president-elect", then that's what we put in the article.--chaser - t 06:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

(Unindent as on tangent.) If I understand correctly formal counting doesn't finish for days if not weeks (and what are actually being reported are a mix of projections and only some provisional results) and the official results on the popular poll will only come with formal certification (hence a bit of inconsistency in sources about the exact total popular votes in past elections). But if none of these terms have an official definition then it's getting absurd to be arguing over the potential distinction for the four periods between now and Jan 20th (until certification of results, until the electors meet and vote, until their votes are opened and accepted, then until inauguration). What's been the Wikipedia practice for US governors? Timrollpickering (talk) 06:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Many WP:RS used the "presumptive nominee" formulation, and so it was appropriate for us to also. Those same news sources don't use "presumptive president-elect", presumably because it's an awkward double-futuring and because the details of the Electoral College meeting are far less visible than a party's national convention meeting. We should follow their lead on this. Wasted Time R (talk) 06:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

As a mutually-agreeable alternative, it would also be fine to call him the "projected President-elect of the United States" Igarvey (talk) 06:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

He's the President-elect, period. The electors are bound by their states' laws to vote for the guy the states elected. Not that that matters, reliable sources are what matters. And they will all be saying President-elect. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is presumptive(ly) pointless. Does it really change anything? Common sense, yes. But Wikipedia has been known to ignore such nuances, especially if it doesn't serve a strong purpose. Whether we demarcate him as presumptive or not, it's implied that it's not official until his inauguration. Orane (talk) 06:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

←Right. No one is suggesting that we call him President until January 20. All we are saying is that he should be called President-elect starting now, as per all of the reliable sources we are citing. All of them. Use common sense. Tvoz/talk 06:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Not only common sense. We can also use policy. According to WP:VERIFIABILITY the threshold is verifiability not truth. So we can call him the President elect if we can cite reliable sources using the term. Dr.K. (talk) 06:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Independently of how to call his status, can we say that he is the "winner of the United States presidential election, 2008", in the lead? I was looking at the article for the first time and was searching for an easy link to the election article but found none. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

President-elect

Don't know why folks aren't reading the Wikipedia article. All is explained. Softlavender (talk) 07:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Therequiembellishere (talk) 08:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Because it's very late at night in the US? Wikidemon (talk) 08:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to agree. The fact that WP is a reliable source or not is irrelevant in this context. You can't quote Wikipedia as a source for an other WP article but the definition of President-elect should remain consistent (if the President-elect article is correctly sourced). -- lucasbfr ^talk 11:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I heard on the BBC he is President-designate, not yet President-elect. Probably worth checking out. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  13:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to cite a book, but this book:

The American Political Dictionary

By Jack C. Plano, Milton Greenberg

Contributor Milton Greenberg

Published by Dryden Press, 1976

Original from the University of Michigan

Digitized Feb 2, 2007

481 pages

says "Following the November popular election, the winning candidate is unofficially called the "President-designate" until the electors are able to ratify the people's choice."LedRush (talk) 19:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

President-Elect?

Why does the Barack Obama article have him as the "president-elect" when he is really only the "president-designate"? I know I am clutching at straws, but Wikipedia articles should be factual. The fact of the matter is Senator Barack Obama (yes he is still a senator) only becomes "president-elect" when the electoral college votes for him. I think we should change his status to being "president-designate" until the electoral college elects him. Mattrix18 (talk) 11:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

President-elect seems fine, "but unofficially the person chosen in the November general election is called the President-elect even before the Electoral College meets;" and unofficial is a fact too. SGGH ^speak! 12:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

He's the President-elect because the reliable sources call him that. Any other questions? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It should be presumptive President-elect (until December 15th). But, I suppose we don't wont edit wars over this fact, for the next six-weeks. GoodDay (talk) 14:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this debate still going on? The technicalities of the Electoral College process aren't important enough in this case to not use the standard "president elect" form that every WP:RS is using. Do this Google News search for "president elect obama" and you get 1,147 hits and growing by the minute. Do this search with "presumptive" added and you get 0 hits. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but you could easily find reliable, verifiable sources that say when a person officially becomes a president-elect. Wikipedia should try to be factual and not cite things we know are wrong. This argument is fairly insubstantial, but it's disheartening to see we don't try to get it right.LedRush (talk) 14:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

And while we are on the subject, there has been a spate of edits to child articles switching from "Senator" to "President-elect". I have been removing the titles and just leaving the naked "Barack Obama", since (a) it is really obvious who he is and (b) anyone living under a rock can simply click the blue link to find out. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Had the results been 270-268 (for example), this would've been a much bigger issue. But seeing as the margin of victory was quite clear, perhaps it's not worth the hassle (over the next six-weeks). GoodDay (talk) 15:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, and I want to agree with you, GoodDay. But with the number of hits this article gets, it'd be nice to actually serve the purpose of an encyclopedia and provide correct information for people looking to educate themselves. I understand that the actual difference is minimal, but the ideal behind the change is quite important.LedRush (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The standard for Wikipedia content is verifiability, not truth. If the media is getting it wrong, well, Wikipedia is not here to right that wrong; we're here to document it. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 15:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure. It's easy enough to say "While the mainstream press has named him the president-elect, he is, in fact, the president-designate until December 15 when the electoral college meets." Or, we could just use one of the thousands of cites that call him president-designate, as they are verifiable. Or we could use the verifiable references to how the election works. Please don't be condescending in quoting Wikipedia standards...everyone here has been around the block. Let's discuss the issue on the merits.LedRush (talk) 15:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with ya LedRush. Nobody has been elected President or Vice President yet. It was the Electors who were elected yesterday. But, six-weeks is a long haul (to push this fact). GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the article President-elect, you will see it says that until the electors vote, the proper term is "president-designate". We should use this term or presumtpive president-elect, as it is most important to be accurate. We can't base our usage on the media's, since they often use terms because of time constraints or the need to have easy clarity. As an encyclopedia, we do not have the same bounds and it is most important to use the correct designation. I think LedRush's idea is the best.The Fiddly Leprechaun (talk) 15:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

LedRush's proposals are acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 15:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That article isn't sourced for its bold statements and I'm not sure why, if there is any precision on this point (remember the only time the Constitution refers to a "President elect" it is referring precisely to the actual point of taking office so bypasses all this completely), the "official" date is when the electors vote rather than when the votes are opened, accepted and counted in January (and there have been past elections when results have been disputed and challenged in Congress - e.g. 1876). Timrollpickering (talk) 15:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, not everyone here has "been around the block". Many readers here are viewing a Wikipedia article for the first time, and I think it would do them a dis-service to mislead them about how Wikipedia works. Logical arguments about what is right or true most often lead to people trying to add material which is unpublished original research. We should not re-interpret what the media say because we know better. We should present material from the most reliable sources neutrally and fairly. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 16:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Mind the words most and reliable. We don't need to parrot tabloid-quality headlines. And with all due respect, almost all headlines were tabloid quality, even the revered NYT. Obviously, they are trying to avoid any "confusion" as to the status and thus use the popular term elect instead of the accurate term designate. That doesn't make it a fact and Wikipedia is not here to write about anything as fact, what we do, even with the most reliable sources and all but the most basic of informations is we use simple formulations. And of course we should simply cover the facts. Obama is called President-elect by most sources. But strictly speaking this is incorrect as of right now, as he is actually the President-designate until the electoral college convenes. What's the big deal? It's a really simply thing to state and reference the facts, and improve the article's and Wikipedia's accuracy. No need to dumb ourselves down to tabloid level: We're not a news outlet, we're an encyclopedia, and we strive for accuracy in all things. Everyme 17:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

How is it that the NYT are now described as a tabloid? There is also such thing as accepted practice and common usage of a term. Language is a living thing, it evolves. There is also such thing as sounding stuffy and out of touch. It remains to be seen if the benefits of linguistic hyper-accuracy outweigh the disadvantages of sounding like we came out of a stuffy linguistic closet with a bunch of dusty rarely used terms. Dr.K. (talk) 17:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Yes, it's splitting hairs to an extent. However, there are very real consitutional and legal implications, not just issues of terminology arising from the difference between what President-designate means and what President-elect means. I don't have a strong opinion either way, just wanted that valid point to be heard. Since accuracy is of course subject to a democratic vote, I'll leave it to the majority. Everyme 18:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Legal and constitutional implications are present. It is a difficult question. Adding to these problems is the fact that the term "President elect" enjoys widespread acceptance in the general culture and Google echoes that. So your point about accuracy being the subject of a vote is well made and captures this dilemma well. Personally I think "President designate" is an elegant term albeit a bit stuffy since its usage is not that widespread. But you can't have everything. Dr.K. (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Consider commenting on Talk:List of Presidents of the United States#Removal of Obama from List to weigh in on whether you think Obama should be listed as a President of the United States. We need to gain a consensus so an admin can make changes if necessary. ~ Wadester16 (talk) 17:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: PRESIDENT-ELECT: Just find a citation and attach it and end this interminable discussing. There are innumerable reliable sources listing Obama as President-elect. Just put one in so it doesn't keep getting changed. If someone finds a reliable American source that cites him as president-designate, then this discussion has some merit. Until then, source it and quell this endless recurring river of arguments and counter-arguments. Softlavender (talk) 17:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, if somebody who has a problem with applying the title president-elect to Sen. Obama, please find a RS that actually calls him something else. As written above, every RS I have seen since last night has labeled him President-elect, these include NY Times, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, BBC, Al-Jazeera, FOX News, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post . . . Nableezy (talk) 17:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Nab, it doesn't do any good to say that -- people have said that continously here. What needs to happen is to apply a citation right now to the article. Softlavender (talk) 18:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

So are you guys saying that no RS uses the term or acknowledges the process of the electoral college?LedRush (talk) 18:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

No, what I am saying is that I have yet to see a RS that adds presumptive or projected or any other qualifier to that they label 'President-elect.' If you can provide a reliable source that says that he is the presumptive or projected or any other qualifier you feel is needed, please add it. I am saying that everything that I have looked at, and the list is above, labels him as the President-elect (sometimes without a hyphen). I don't claim to have looked at every source, so I am asking those who have a problem with calling him the President-elect to please provide a source that adds some sort of qualifier to that title. Nableezy (talk) 19:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think my previous post got messed up. Here it is: I don't know how to cite a book, but this book:

The American Political Dictionary By Jack C. Plano, Milton Greenberg Contributor Milton Greenberg Published by Dryden Press, 1976 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Feb 2, 2007 481 pages says "Following the November popular election, the winning candidate is unofficially called the "President-designate" until the electors are able to ratify the people's choice."LedRush (talk) 19:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Not disputing the source, it seems fine to me if we use that term, but a quick google search on "President-designate" has results that point to when a person has been appointed president but has not yet assumed the office, as in the case of University presidents and other unelected posts. But the source seems to me to be a good one so I personally would not have a problem with that title being used. Nableezy (talk) 19:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Official Title

Barack is President-designate of the United States. When the electoral college convenes and votes, he will then become President-elect, and finally President after taking the Oath of Office.

Hybrid1486 (talk) 16:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

See above, for previous discussion on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 16:51, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Read this. Softlavender (talk) 17:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposal on Language

Let's just come to a consensus and then never talk about this again. Here are my proposed options.

1. Just say either "presumptive president-elect" or "president-designate" until Dec 15th.

2. Just say "president-elect".

3. Say "president-elect" in the info box, but the first time we use it in the article, just add some language (with cites) to the effect "While the mainstream press has named him the president-elect, he is, in fact, the president-designate until December 15 when the electoral college meets." Then, in the rest of the article we just call him president-elect.

• Proposal 3 - It gets the facts right, but acknowledges the popularly used language.LedRush (talk) 17:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Proposal 3 Per above. Good idea. ~ Wadester16 (talk) 17:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• We don't need a consensus. We just need a source. Anything that gets inserted into the article is going to need a source, a citation. Just find one for P-E (there are dozens) and put it in the article. Consensuses are refutable. Citations, on the other hand, are recognized facts unless refuted by another citation. At least, that is the presumption on which Wikipedia operates. Softlavender (talk) 18:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The question is what to do with the vast majority of sources naming someone something that everyone here knows is slightly inaccurate, and only a few (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/11862-pak-lah-hopes-for-positive-changes-from-obama-win) using the correct term. Also, we could just cite electoral college facts (stating that you're not president-elect until after the electoral college votes). The proposals above contemplate all these truths and all different opinions. Let's just openly talk about an interesting subject and see what we think, without hijacking or disrupting the process. If you want to attack sources, please do so above. (btw, I'm not saying that you're disruptive or hijacking, I only fear that having the discussion here will have that effect.)LedRush (talk) 18:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure why you are citing a Malaysian newpaper, which calls Obama P-E but is not a reliable American source. You seem to be presuming/implying that P-E is incorrect and that everyone agrees with you; however, reliable, notable American sources cite Obama as P-E, and P-E is and has historically been the universally used term for anyone voted President on election day. Softlavender (talk) 18:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Proposal 3/Softlavender. Everyme 18:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• ONLY 2 Where is the RELIABLE SOURCE that states anything other than president-elect that is appropriate? Otherwise there is nothing to discuss, and even if you come up with a reasonable RS, the note would still not be notable enough to cram into the lead, and a footnote would do. Modocc (talk) 18:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment Can someone explain why December 15 rather than January 6? Surely when the electoral votes are counted and certified is when any official status applies, not just when they've been cast? Timrollpickering (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

See Electoral College (United States). Black Kite 19:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

In short, the electors meet in their respective states in mid-December, and their election results are certified by joint session of Congress on January 6th. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I'm none the wiser from that. December 15 is the day of voting in the individual states but January 6 is when the votes are accepted and counted. Surely any election only ends, and the person formally becomes the elect, when the votes are officially accepted and counted? Timrollpickering (talk) 19:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The article could be a little clearer on the matter, as it gets bogged down in verbiage. The one sentence I stated above is a quick explanation of what's going on. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

He's the President-elect, and that's that. Let's not try to make wikipedia look any stupider than it already does, OK? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Does anyone have a good source for the explanatory statement in option 3? Assuming such sources can be found, I'd support adding the explanation near to the first usage of the term "president-elect". SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
  • It's already explained in President-elect. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Also, he's not "officially" the President-elect until January 6th. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
      • President-elect cites no sources and wikipedia is not a reliable source. Modocc (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Nor are the opinions of pedantic wikipedia editors who want to try to make some point to the casual readers, despite the fact that the reliable sources will say "President-elect" without qualification. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

White House's choice of words

When I go to the White House web site I read "President George W. Bush speaks with President-elect Barack Obama during a congratulatory phone call ... " . When I listen to President George W. Bush's speech, he speaks about president-elect Obama. So ? do we know better ? Hektor (talk) 18:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Do we know better than Bush? Yes, on all issues. The person who cleans the White House toilets knows more than him. He's not the threshold on accuracy on any topic other than --possibly-- the color of his underpants. Everyme 19:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you think it's Bush himself who maintains the whitehouse.gov web page? Surely he has a few other things to keep him occupied. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Isn't whitehouse.gov, like, the President's blog? Everyme 19:51, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I was trying to provide a good reference, the web site of the US Presidency itself, and you become emotional and start anti-Bush rantings. I think this is not very constructive. For me the White House web site is indeed quite a good reference. I don't see why wikipedia should call Obama in a different way from the White House choice of words. Hektor (talk) 19:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum, cut it out. SQL^{Query me!} 20:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

And you are rude and probably trolling. I am not trying to use wikipedia as a forum, I am providing a reference to try to solve an issue. Hektor (talk) 20:51, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

You should learn to pay attention to the indentation level, and, watch who you call a troll (indeed, I would appreciate it if you retracted that personal attack). SQL^{Query me!} 20:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, he was addressing me. And I wasn't emotional, I was just poking fun at your line of reasoning with which you dismiss the simple fact that what most say --even if it includes all major media outlets as well as the White House website-- is not necessarily factually correct. The ramifications of the existing distinction between President-designate and President-elect are just not trivial. Every line of reasoning that attempts to contradict that is ridiculous and without any potential merit for improving this article. Everyme 21:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, and, to expand further... Taking potshots at bush, on this talk page, is unneeded, inappropriate, borderline in violation of BLP, has nothing to do with improving the article, and, will not continue here, we clear? SQL^{Query me!} 21:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe I have made myself clear. Everyme 21:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Full name in infobox

Most of the infoboxes for other recent presidents all include the full complete name of the person not just First + Last name. Examples include:

• Dwight David Eisenhower
• John Fitzgerald Kennedy
• Richard Milhous Nixon
• Gerald Rudolph Ford, Jr.
• James Earl Carter Jr.
• Ronald Wilson Reagan
• George Herbert Walker Bush
• William Jefferson Clinton
• George Walker Bush.

This is the way it is done and why must we make an exception for Obama? We only go by the facts and it is what it is. —MJCdetroit ^(yak) 19:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, most infoboxes use the 'commonly called' name, and the complete name is at the beginning of the article. I see no reason why presidents should be treated differently. jftr, Eisenhower's infobox was changed 12:02, 26 November 2006 by Bart Versieck and was marked as a 'minor edit'. Doesn't look to me like a the way it is done thing at all. (I prefer Dwight D. Eisenhower, myself.) Flatterworld (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Dwight D. Eisenhower would be the most obvious to use. Most Presidents go by their formal names including just a middle initial, not the full middle name. Some, like Carter and Clinton, go by their nicknames. Generally, the only time you hear their full names spoken out loud is when they get inaugurated. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

FDR and LBJ are other exceptions. It doesn't really make sense to have the full name in the infobox when it's already in the article. And it's too late to try to make some point about Obama's middle name being a common Islamic name. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

(multiple edit conflict)1. This has been discussed here countless times. See FAQ and archives. Consensus was to use his common name in the infobox.

2. There is no official Wikipedia policy for using the full name of the president in the infobox. Note that as of 19:30 on November 5 (I'm stating the time in case someone makes changes), the following presidents follow the format of this page, which is to use the common name and not the birth name: Ulysses S. Grant, Grover Cleveland, William McKinley. I'm sure there are more, but I'm not going to waste my time on finding them. ~ priyanath ^talk 19:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Lyndon B. Johnson only have the middle initial where the guy had a middle name. Also Grover Cleveland, who went by his middle name. See List of Presidents of the United States for a quick cross-reference. There is obviously no set-in-stone standard. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Let's use his full name and ignore other articles. Everyme 19:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Previous consensus, argued many times in the archives, is to use the common name in the infobox. ~ priyanath ^talk 19:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Previous consensus was based on right wing attacks. Currently, that shouldn't be as much of a problem.LedRush (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Previous Understanding My A**. Everyme 21:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

What? SGGH ^speak! 20:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Consensus was (and still is) based on using the name that is most commonly used; is used by Barack Obama himself; and on Wikipedia:MOSBIO#Names, which recommends using the full name in the lead paragraph. ~ priyanath ^talk 20:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I actually don't care what's in the info box (though I do have a strong preference to conformity), but Priyanath's statements seem incorrect to me. Just look at that list above...who called Clinton, "william", nonetheless, "Jefferson"?. Also, where is the policy that says info boxes shouldn't list the full names (it could exist, I really just don't know)?LedRush (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

SGGH, I said let's use his full name and ignore other articles. Everyme 21:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy says to go by consensus. For previous discussions here, see Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_37#Full_name_in_lead, Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_29#Middle_name_in_infobox. If you can get consensus here for putting in the full name, then that's fine, but you should notify the other editors who voiced their opinions earlier and give this discussion some time. For the record, I'm opposed to putting the full name in the infobox for the reasons I've explained above. ~ priyanath ^talk 21:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Putting in the full name here does of course not require the nod of people who have argued against doing so on some other articles. Unless it's such a stable consensus as to be described in policy or the MOS. More importantly, please consider that consensus can change, so arguing on rather weak past consensus holds no water. Everyme 21:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think it's important to let others voice their thoughts. I'll also be taking a long wikibreak soon and wanted to put my two cents here. Your opinion that consensus is 'nonsense' probably isn't going to get very wide acceptance on Wikipedia. ~ priyanath ^talk 21:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Where to put transition announcements and news

That would be Presidential transition of Barack Obama
-- Yellowdesk (talk) 21:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

So, who's gonna take over being Senator of Illinois?

Will there be an election for that or some other method? --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 21:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There will be a special election. For older examples, see List of special elections to the United States Senate. NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 21:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Governor Blagojevich would be appointing our next Senator. Illinois2011 (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Good call. Adding a ref to that fact in the main article? VictorC (talk) 21:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That is my understanding also. There is even speculation that he might appoint himself to the Senate and resign his job as Governor, since he'll probably be defeated in the upcoming Governor election. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 21:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Positions held at bottom of page

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but at the bottom of the page, Obama is listed as the "Incumbent" President (which is wrong), from 2009-present (which is extremely bad form, since 2009 hasn't happened yet). I'm not saying leave Obama off. I think as a compromise, instead of "Incumbent", saying "President-elect" or "President-designate" (per that discussion above), and dates of office as "Scheduled to be inaugurated 2009" or some other information. -- Jwinters | Talk 21:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)