User talk:North8000

Archive 1

Single payer / reply

I've been less than complimentary about your Wikipedia activities in the past (I am not a diplomatic person by any stretch of the imagination), so I appreciate you looking at my contributions with an open mind. I am in complete agreement about the single payer-related articles. They do not need our help specifically, but they are in dire need of more editors to help establish a consensus (for whichever view). Right now, it just looks like Thargor vs Cartoon ad infinitum, which cannot possibly be healthy. That matter aside, I will try to follow your good example and judge more on actions than talk page rhetoric. Thank you for your comment and good faith. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Cool! But what about you and me both staying involved a bit to help get a good process going? North8000 (talk) 16:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I will certainly see the DRN process through to its conclusion, but I am not really interested in actively editing in this particular topic. I'm more interested in seeing The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey before it vacates my local cinema. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think I could learn some life-priorities from that.North8000 (talk) 18:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Indications appear to be that CD's behavior and forum shopping will likely close that DRN discussion down. We'll see. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It is not "forum shopping". It is a content dispute that is deadlocked because there are not enough editors/opinions to build a solid consensus for anything. DRN is the perfect place to resolve that dispute. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, it is forum shopping at its core, but if you want to rescue the DRN discussion, I'd suggest appealing to the admin who plans to close it. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

No administrator has commented on the DRN discussion yet, so I am not sure what you mean. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Right here. I have also left a message at the admin's talk page. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:12, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

At best the DRN question was mis-worded. I don't see how it could be a route to anywhere. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

This explains why I wasn't seeing anything. I thought I was losing my mind when you were all talking about something I didn't know anything about! -- Scjessey (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Setup bot to archive your talk page

Hi North,

Your talk page is listed right now as the 67th longest page in the English Wikipedia at Wikipedia:Database_reports/Long_pages.

Do you want me to set up a bot to archive your Talk page automatically into month-year format archives?

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 03:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the email, (#67, I'm honored......:-)) but no thanks. I'm in transition on that right now. I'll get it trimmed. Sincerely,

North8000 (talk) 03:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I can set the bot to archive it into incremental archives too (1, 2, 3, ..., and so on) if you prefer that format. We can specify the timespan to 90 days too so that you have enough time to reply. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 04:04, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the useful kick in the butt, but I'm handling it. I pared it ....losing my place as #67!  :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 04:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The report is very confusing, I think that you may have fallen prey and read it backwards. I think that I'm actually about #1450, not #67. North8000 (talk) 19:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Importance of in-line citations

• Dolphin, you made a complete mis-statement of my conversation there with you. Too obvious to be accidental. It's starting to look like you want to wage arguments more than you want to get cites added

Hi North8000. I make no secret of the fact that I found your contributions at User talk:Benjamin Trovato to be unhelpful. Let me explain.

In August 2011 I had a constructive and polite dialogue with Benjamin about the absence of in-line citations from one of his new articles. In December 2012 I set out to have a similar constructive and polite dialogue on the same subject. You jumped in and responded before Benjamin did so and, to my surprise, you attempted to contradict what I had written. You did not contradict me on my Talk page which I think would have been the appropriate course of action. Instead, you contradicted me on Benjamin’s Talk page where Benjamin was sure to see it. Presumably you wanted Benjamin to see that two experienced Users disagreed on the subject, and that you were willing to tackle me on his behalf.

Throughout the thread I have supported my comments and my arguments by posting quotations, complete with quotation marks or italics or bolding. I also posted blue links to relevant Wikipedia policy documents. You did none of these things. You wrote vaguely about policies but without actually quoting any policy. Apart from one mention of WP:Ver, you didn’t name the policy you were alluding to, or provide a blue link. (eg You wrote authoritatively using the words sourced and sourcable but without specifying which policy actually uses these words.) On one occasion I asked you to post a diff but you didn’t do so. This is a very useful strategy because it means you can’t be pinned down to anything because you never actually write anything definitive, and you never have to explain what you mean. However, I find this strategy very frustrating and I think it lacks openness and honesty, especially when you are writing to one User in the course of a debate on another User’s Talk page.

On several occasions I emphasised the fact that you and I were actually in agreement on all things that mattered on the subject. Despite that, you continued to write about how my interpretation was incorrect or my implications were in error. I tried to find common ground; you tried to find differences. You even took time to write starting with your complete misfire on what Ad hominem means. Of what relevance is the meaning of Ad hominem to the subject of the thread? Who were you trying to impress? (When I invited you to raise the matter on my Talk page you showed no interest.)

Your contributions on the thread appear to have had the effect of reassuring Benjamin that he can safely ignore my advice. Benjamin wrote to you saying Thanks for the help – see his diff. You replied saying, among other things, good practice would be to put more cites than you do. But policy does not require it; (Then you did a 180 degree turn and wrote any challenged ones would require it. Do you see what I mean when I say you never actually write anything definitive?)

If it was your goal to reassure Benjamin that he can ignore WP:Verifiability and my requests then I think you have succeeded. However, if your goal is to see Benjamin persuaded of the value of adding his own in-line citations and avoiding the devaluing effect of banners saying “This article needs in-line citations”, I have made the following request to you and Ymblanter on Ymblanter’s Talk page – diff:

If Ymblanter or North8000 are willing to assist by trying to persuade Benjamin, that would be greatly appreciated by me.

Dolphin (t) 05:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

On the core topic of influencing Benjamin to use more in-line citations, we are in full agreement. However, when you mis-state or misapply wp:ver, including mis-stating or misapplying wp:ver to infer that someone is violating it when they aren't, I am going to say so. (you have repeated this error in your post above) in your post above I'm quite familiar with wp:ver....by numbers of posts, for the last 3 years I have been the #1 most-active editor/contributor worldwide in discussions / development work at that policy page, and I also have the ability/curse of seeing and understanding the structure of statements contained therein. And my statements are from a structuralist/logician angle and have been consistent. Also, I have collaborated with Benjamin before (e.g. discussing the books that he buys so as to write articles well from sources) and know that he writes from sources. I also know that he does an immense amount of doing sourced (but not cited) quality work in areas (e.g. northern historical) where few are really doing that.

So, the answer to your question is YES. So I will continue to work WITH you on getting him to cite more and even ramp up my efforts in that area. And if we could just stick to doing that without wis-stating policy, or mis-implying violations or flaunting of policy, your message will become much clearer and our discussions will be 100% co-operative. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:13, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Can we agree? I think that step 1 would be towards routinely adding more cites when doing new work. North8000 (talk) 11:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that getting Benjamin to add in-line citations to existing articles is beginning to appear impossible. Our strategy should be to encourage him to incorporate in-line citations in new articles he creates. Both you and Ymblanter and offered very gentle and implied encouragement to Benjamin about the value of in-line citations. He appears happy to ignore such encouragement. I think the time has come for you to make it entirely clear what you are talking about - that is, WP:Verifiability is a policy that all articles are expected to conform to; it isn't offered as one of a number of acceptable alternatives.

I am willing to acknowledge that you are Wikipedia's leading contributor to WP:V. That is a good thing. You have written many times that I mis-state WP:V, or mis-apply it, or incorrectly imply something about it. You have made no attempt to explain what you mean. For example, you wrote to me (on Benjamin's Talk page) authoritatively emphasising the words sourced and sourcable. The word sourced appears 8 times in WP:V, always in the context unsourced or poorly sourced, not as a criterion for verifiability. The word sourcable does not appear anywhere in WP:V. So when you wrote about information being sourced or sourcable you weren't quoting from WP:V. I'm sure you know what you mean when you write these words but I don't. That is not a good thing, especially from one who contributes so much to the topic.

If you want me to stop mis-stating WP:V you need to explain what it is that I am writing that constitutes mis-statement. I am always willing to be persuaded by logical argument. Dolphin (t) 11:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Cool. It will take me a bit. But in the meantime I must point out a couple of things. I think that "leading contributor" is being too kind; I'd call myself one of the 4 most involved, who just happens to have more edits than the others. Also I just realized that I made the mistake of using a term "sourced" which has two different meanings ("came from a source" and "cited") and thus further contributed to the confusion. Sorry. North8000 (talk) 12:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I look forward to reading whatever you can provide.

A day ago Benjamin submitted this essay - diff. I have responded. It would be good if you and Ymblanter (and anyone else watching) responded too. Dolphin (t) 22:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Overall, I am with you on your effort to get Benjamin to cite more. So let's call our wp:ver discussion a sidebar. Briefly, in this area, here's what wp:ver in essence says:

• All material added is to be verifyable. It must be citeable should the question arise
• All material that is likely to be challenged should be cited. This expresses a principle, but is usually not practically operative until/unless the material gets challenged. But it does mean that statement that look like a real "reach" or which make an arguable claim should get cited.
• All material that is challenged must be cited in order to remain.

So, creating articles as Benjamin does does not violate any of the above, and doing so does not flaunt wp:ver. BUT what he is doing is unusual in Wikipedia and likely to lead to various problems. For example:

• An article with so few references could never pass the criteria for being a Wikipedia Good Article or Featured Article. I do a lot of Good Article reviews, and I would have to fail such articles on that basis.
• If the material starts getting challenged and tagged, it is likely to get deleted if cites are not then provided. And it's usually much harder to do it afterwards.
• Particularly when writing articles from sources (as I have seen Benjamin to do) it's really easy to add this cites right when you are writing the article, and harder to go searching form them later. So why not do it when writing the article.
• While this is lower risk with the types of subjects that he is writing on, if the article's subject gets challenged on wp:notability grounds, there is a higher risk of the article getting deleted because lack of sources means lack of sources of the type required for wp:notabiity.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I agree with all of it.

Benjamin has described excessive footnotes as “clutter” – diff. I suspect he is most familiar with a style of academic writing in which a Bibliography or list of references is used, but in-line citations are not. He probably finds the neat, tidy appearance of his articles satisfying and is not attracted to the unfamiliar appearance of articles with in-line citations throughout the text. I think our strategy should be to persuade him that:

• on Wikipedia, footnotes don’t degrade the appearance of an article
• creating footnotes and inserting them in a document is not difficult; instead it is as satisfying an activity as writing the prose that composes the article
• inserting footnotes raises the quality of the article and takes it closer to Good article or Featured article status, with all the satisfaction that accompanies those milestones.

I think people who are asked to incorporate in-line citations into the text they add, and their new articles, fall broadly into two categories. Firstly, there are those who are unfamiliar with the concept of in-line citations but who investigate the concept and promptly do as requested and begin incorporating in-line citations. Secondly, there are those who are familiar with the concept but who choose to argue their case that they don’t need to incorporate in-line citations. Benjamin belongs to the second category. Despite me and others drawing his attention to WP:V and WP:RS he has never acknowledged their legitimate role on Wikipedia, nor that he has read them. He has never quoted anything from these two policy documents, nor has he attempted to identify any shortcoming in either. I invited him to argue his case at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability if he believes he has a better quality-control model than the one presently described at WP:V – I don’t imagine he will ever take up my invitation. In this diff he shows that he believes the problem is Dolphin, not anything written in WP:V:

Dolphin appears to be a puritan who thinks that There Must Be Footnotes regardless of particular cases. I am taking the cavalier view that footnotes should be added only when they are necessary.

Benjamin has put forward a significant number of excuses as to why he shouldn’t be expected to incorporate in-line citations. All are based on his intuition. None of them has been related to anything written in WP:V or similar policy documents. Benjamin is pretending that WP:V does not exist or that he hasn’t read it. I’m convinced he is much more familiar with these things than he shows. He feigns ignorance of WP:V, probably because he finds it easier to do so rather than grapple with the inconvenient truths in the policy documents. It would be good if more Users, other than me, reinforced the notion that WP:V has a legitimate role on Wikipedia and all contributors should respect it.

Don't forget Benjamin's recent essay at diff. It would be good if you could read it and provide Benjamin with a response. Sincerely. Dolphin (t) 07:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

There's a third possibility which is that this effort got off on the wrong foot causing the situation to get polarized. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how that could be a realistic explanation. See how it all started - diff. Cheers! Dolphin (t) 12:34, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd call that a mixed-bag in this context. North8000 (talk) 12:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Why would you call it a mixed bag? Dolphin (t) 12:45, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you really want to go there? Happy to do so if you think that it would be useful to discuss. But I'm ready to just go to work to see if I can convince Benjamin to put in more cites. North8000 (talk) 12:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

We have agreed that our first priority is to persuade Benjamin that in-line citations can open up a whole new world for him, beginning with GA status for his best articles. I suggest you do that first.

There is a likelihood that, in the future, I will feel motivated to write to another User to draw his attention to Wikipedia's desire that articles are independently verifiable. If you think my messages to Benjamin in August 2011 and/or December 2012 were a "mixed bag", and that being a mixed bag is not a good thing, I am keen to find out what you mean; or at least what approach you recommend in such circumstances. Dolphin (t) 12:59, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

"Mixed bag" of course includes the nice stuff that you said. And on the other side, the only argument that you made for what you were asking was essentially saying that they were violating policy. With the latter being incorrect, your only reason given was an erroneous one. But either way, using "you are breaking a rule" as the only reasoning for something that someone is bringing up is far more likely to polarize a situation than it is to convince the person. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

A very good submission - diff. It deserves to be successful! Dolphin (t) 04:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! We'll see what happens next. Sincerely North8000 (talk) 11:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Assault weapon

On Assault weapon you say That it is a TERM (not a type of firearm) and one with no consistent meaning.

You are 100% right. However, in Wikipedia we do not start an article by explicitly stating that the title has no meaning. Instead we set up the context. The further back the bolded term comes, the more distant the article is from any general meaning of the term. I wish I could point you to other examples, but wanted to give you a quick note. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

What you are saying is certainly the norm, however this is a case of an article about a term where there are massively different meanings which a whole lot of people think are are single meaning. I think a very special and unusual case. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

In fact it seems to be more and more about the controversy surrounding the term. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

As a term with no consistent meaning and which is used to deceive more than it it is used to inform, I think that it is rightly so. North8000 (talk) 11:12, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Why do you think my version does not express just this fact? Did you even read it! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:20, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

You took out the key sentences which informed to that effect. Either way, it's hard to keep up with attempted second by second massive rewrites of a section with is a painstakenly developed consensus version. Not that it can't be further improved, but that's not the way to go about it. North8000 (talk) 11:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

You are objecting to me doing the edit in a multiple numbered steps. This is done explicitly for the reason that other like you could check what was removed, or if anything objectionable was added.

While you are at it, would you please explain why you reverted this edit. (No real need to answer. I suggest you cool off and come back tomorrow.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Not "cool off" but lets slow down a bit and deal with it in talk. North8000 (talk) 12:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, North8000. You have new messages at Guerillero's talk page.
Message added 02:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Guerillero | My Talk 02:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

synth

Hey. Thanks for giving your opinion on the synth discussion. Sorry if I came off rude. I was thrown off by the edits of another editor in the discussion whom I've had acrimonious encounters with outside of this discussion, and have since been kind of tense and on edge about it. But that's no excuse if I was rude. I apologize. Charles35 (talk) 04:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. I didn't see any of your discussions with me to be rude or problematic in any way. When I ended with "I was just giving my opinion" I wasn't hinting otherwise, that was just a preface to / context for the sentence which followed. But it's nice to strive for a higher-than-average standard in that area which your post here indicates that you do. Thanks again. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Notability of products

Hi North. I saw that you were active on the Talk page of the Notability policy. I noticed that the notability criteria for Products has been scratched and I was wondering if you knew anything about it. I'm talking to a three-year-old social media monitoring startup with about 20+ sources (TechCrunch, VentureBeat, Huffington Post, Mashable, Inc., etc.). The sources are all on their product (not the company) so I think it falls under

"Note that a specific product or service may be notable on its own, without the company providing it being notable in its own right"

However, there is no specific guidance on what a product needs to be notable... CorporateM (Talk) 21:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The main policy regarding this is wp:notability. And the core of it is that in essence the product needs substantive coverage in multiple secondary wp:reliable sources. That's the gist of it. Would be happy to do my best to discuss it more in any direction that you wish. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:03, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm.. I think they'll be fine. The product definitely has enough sources (~20), but I know the community has its bias' against companies/products that are fairly new. CorporateM (Talk) 04:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

AfD Caryacarya

Thanks North8000 I appreciate your constructive style of working. Yes I understand what you say. Now I've just added two academic sources. One is that declare that Caryacarya is the "sacred text" of the religious movement Ananda Marga (this maybe you have just seen) (to satisfy point 3 of WP NC). The other is an academic source quoting the historical relevance of the author (to satisfy point 5 of WP NC). I hope this is sufficient now. Thank you very much for your help.--Cornelius383 (talk) 21:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the thanks. I had already seen that when I wrote you; actually it's why I wrote you. But now I understand your approach .....it is to establish meeting criteria in the books sng. Long story short, that is a riskier/weaker approach. But if that is your approach, you should point out what you are saying....meeting the particular SNG points. IF you have a couple of independent sources which have done in-depth coverage of the topic (no particular claims are needed in there, just in-depth coverage) you have the stronger/less risky route available which is meeting gwp:notability/wp:GNG. In that case make sure that they are used as references in the article and then point them out and say that the are independent sources providing in-depth coverage. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know, offline citations are also counted. In an AFD last year I started gathering offline sources, though I didn't need those finally. If you can find some old 1995 Times of India full coverage on that book or 1992 Statesman article or any notable book (not another book of Ananda Maga please) where author has discussed on this book in details, please scan those copies (only particular pages) and then ummm.. send to someone (uninvolved editor?) who may see and verify those sources.. if you try to do so, make sure to collect at least 4 independent RS (newspaper articles, journal study, scholar papers etc) where the subject is the primary/an important topic of dicussion--Tito Dutta (talk) 22:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah wrong page, I thought to post this in Cornelius383's talk page.. anyway... Tito Dutta (talk) 22:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but you probably don't even need that that extra process. Just use them in the article as references, put as much detail on the reference and cite as is possible, and point such out at the AFD. North8000 (talk) 22:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, it seems, I am hungover. Yes, that should work too unless someone shrugs, better play safe/perfect when you are already at corner of the ring --Tito Dutta (talk) 22:28, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Speed is also important unless you ask for more time, explaining why. North8000 (talk) 22:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Most probably article creator can vote too, or is there any rule? Do you know about it? related discussion! --Tito Dutta (talk) 00:19, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Certainly! North8000 (talk) 00:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

But the more effective thing would be to find a couple of references with in-depth coverage of the topic, put them in, and note that at the AFD page. If they did that, the article will stay. If thei don't do that, the article will probably get deleted. North8000 (talk) 00:54, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi North8000. As I said to Tito I never vote on articles that I wrote. But in this particular case I did. Honestly I think that now we have in the article all the secondary sources to avoid deletion. I don't understand why to delete it. What do you think?--Cornelius383 (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I just changed my recommendation to "wait another week" My comment there is: "I've had conversations with the main author at my talk page and theirs. They do not yet understand that the system here is likely to judge based on wp:GNG and so we are not seeing any identification of any wp:GNG-suitable sources that may exist. This needs another week for them to understand and identify those if they exist."

Answering your question, you still haven't done what I recommended. My gut feel is that IF those sources exist, and IF you do that, your article will stay. And if not, not. Again, my recommendation is to find a couple of independent sources with in-depth coverage of the topic, put them in, and point them out/identify them AS BEING SUCH at the AFD page. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Assault weapon

Images don't need citations, but that caption definitely needs a citation. Either way it should definitely be discussed on the talk page. Perhaps we could start a discussion there? Prodego ^talk 22:03, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I started a section on the talk page for us to discuss, and get more input. Prodego ^talk 22:09, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I agree with your statement here about the caption. Your last statement didn't indicate that and was an edit summary for the deletion of the image. It will be easy to source and I'll do that. Happy to discuss anyway. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Nobody (film) a good article?

I am amazed that you gave Mr. Nobody (film) a "good article" rating. I see that you had some discussion with Earthh, the person who mostly wrote the article, and he/she apparently allayed any doubts you had about it being neutral by saying, "I wrote it, I assure you it's neutral". But I'm afraid that's not enough, and you shouldn't so easily have given him/her a pass.

I suppose you saw my attempts in the Talk page to make the article more neutral. I consider that they failed. Earthh, for whatever reason, is intent on presenting the movie in an almost exclusively positive light. The reality is that the movie was a financial and critical failure. It had some success in Belgium, then flopped in France, and was shown pretty much nowhere else, which is why hardly anyone in America reviewed it.

The most egregious sentence in the article, that I was not able to get him/her to remove, remains: "Mr. Nobody has appeared on many critics top ten lists of 2010 and is frequently considered to be one of the greatest films of the year." "Many"? "Frequently"? In what universe? It's a laughable sentence, the reference does not support it, and it is unfortunately representative of the bias of the article.

I was not and still am not prepared to have an edit war or any kind of war with Earthh about the article, but I am very surprised that you called this a good article. It's not. It's someone's labor of love showing a failed movie in the best possible light, and it embarrasses me that Wikipedia has such an article and even gives it accolades! Kai Carver (talk) 04:23, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The content of the article should accurately reflect what is covered in reliable sources. The lead should summarize the content. Regarding the commercial results of the movie, the article included the theatrical results, and Earthh indicated that they had no sources to be able to put in it's overall results, including those from non-theatrical sales. Regarding your comment if you have a source that gives the characterization that you are describing ("commercial failure") you should have put that in and should put that in. Me insisting that characterization be put in without sourcing would actually be a VIOLATION of both policy and GA criteria.

The same goes for review and assessments by critics. The sourced critics material in there is generally positive. If you feel that there is other sourced negative critic material you should have and should put it in there. If you feel that the sentence is an overreach, you should change it.

Finally, I note that you have had zero edits on the article for its entire history except for placing a general POV tag on the article last August. And I don't see any proposed changes or anything beyond a general complaint on the talk page. Your response where Earthh said that they couldn't find any more sourced info on the commercial results was to basically throw up your hands, implied that they are a poor listener and left. IMHO the thing to do at that point would be to find and insert sourced material which you say is missing instead of asking the other editor to violate policy and insert an unsourced statement that the film was a commercial failure. North8000 (talk) 12:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Re: "accurately reflect what is covered in reliable sources": the reference for the wildly over-the-top sentence that I mention above, [1], does not support it. The closest I can find there is "made several of the hidden gems of 2010 lists published across the internet" -- hardly "many critics top ten lists of 2010" or "frequently considered to be one of the greatest films of the year", wouldn't you say? So it doesn't accurately reflect its own reference, let alone reality.

What's amusing is that that very same reference does say "the $47million film grossed a mere $2million at the box office worldwide", so it's not exactly hard to find evidence the film is a commercial failure and Box Office Mojo worldwide gross confirms this: [2].

It's odd because you raised concerns, and then accepted Earthh's answers, though they did not address your concerns. The reason I haven't tried to change the article is that Earthh, who clearly "owns" the article, appeared very resistant to my suggestions, and seems to me to be arguing in bad faith. See also my discussion on Earthh's Talk page [3]. Now you say and maintain it's a good article... OK. I don't feel prepared to argue much more if the author of the article and a neutral person who is a Senior Editor both agree that the article is good. Kai Carver (talk) 22:22, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

My opinion is that it meets the Wikipedia Good Article criteria. That doesn't mean it can't be made better. If the "the $47million film grossed a mere $2million at the box office worldwide" sounds like it would be useful for inclusion if the source is reliable. You should put it in, with the source. I have a feeling that you could just put it in and there would be no objections. But if you feel like you need support to do that ping me and I'll support you. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

OK thanks for your reply. What do you suggest I do about the above-mentioned false statement, unsupported by the reference? "Mr. Nobody has appeared on many critics top ten lists of 2010 and is frequently considered to be one of the greatest films of the year." Doesn't its wrongness shock you? I would just delete it, but I really don't want to get into an argument. I'm really at a loss about how to improve the article, because it seems to me very, very biased, and I don't relish working in a non cooperative way. Here's another example "Jennie Punter of The Globe and Mail praised the film" -- no, she didn't, or rather, she gave it it two out of four stars and a mixed review (so of course there is praise as well as criticism): "Time travel takes too many routes in Mr. Nobody". Since this is one of the only reviews from a major source used to support the claim that the film was well-received by critics, if I change that, I have to change the whole slant of the (already over-long) Critical Reception section. Anyway, I'll try to make a few improvements, and see what happens. If I get around to it... The problem is that the article is like the movie: no one cares about it, except for a small number of enthusiastic supporters. I just hate seeing false things in Wikipedia. Kai Carver (talk) 23:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

And here's another false statement about the film, with a bogus reference, in the director's page: "It has received high praise from film critics and was named by many one of the best films of that year." Check the reference, it says nothing of the sort. Doesn't that shock you? I think you also gave this article a GA stamp. It seems to me there is a pattern here of misrepresentation, by someone who appears to be a big fan, but not sufficiently neutral and ready to bend the truth to make the film appear better then it is. Kai Carver (talk) 23:26, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

PS: sigh... Kai Carver (talk) 23:29, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Answering your first question, my recommendation is that you should do (and should have been doing) the following (in this sequence) for each topic thread:

1. Put in sourced material
2. Make sure that summarization in the body of the article matches the sources material. If not, change it. If your change is disputed, discuss the specific change on the talk page.
3. Make sure that the lead summarizes what is in the article. If not, change it. If your change is disputed, discuss the specific change on the talk page.

On your overall post, I am going to be short and very direct here in order to hopefully give some useful feedback. I looked at the history of the article and see that you have done ZERO of the above. You have done ZERO edits (other than to tag it). You have made ZERO specific proposals for changes on the talk page. On the talk page the only thing that you have done is make general criticisms. And the other active person there merely said that they feel that it summarized the sourced content that they were able to find. To me that sounds like an open door to go find sourced material and put it in. Even on this talk page you have a quote from a source which reflects on the very topic that you are discussing, but the only place you have even brought it up is on my talk page. You didn't put it into the article, you didn't propose putting it in the article, you didn't even discuss it at the article talk page. As much as anybody else, YOU are an editor of this article. That is how Wikipedia works. You seem to think that your scope is limited to just making general criticisms and that it is somebody else's job to propose or make specific changes to implement your general opinion. That "somebody" is YOU, and you have not done it at all. Again, I was short and very direct here in order to hopefully give some useful feedback. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:20, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback, which is indeed useful, and which I will try to apply in the future. In return, let me respectfully suggest you check that the references match the article before calling an article a good article. --Kai Carver (talk) 01:54, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Not that I could check every reference, but I don't think that you have pointed anywhere where the material in the article conflicts with a used-reference. You have pointed out where material that you found but did not put in would have have made a significant reflection (e.g. on commercial success/failure) on the topic, but even on that there we no statements otherwise in the article. Probably the statement most open to question would be summation of the reviews....in essence that they were generally but not all good. This sits on the border between summation and synthesis but seems to me a good summation of material currently in the article.....of course you and other editors should feel free to take it out or modify it as you see fit. North8000 (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I thought I did point out such cases. Again:

* "Mr. Nobody has appeared on many critics top ten lists of 2010 and is frequently considered to be one of the greatest films of the year." article section: [4] ref: [5]

* "It has received high praise from film critics and was named by many one of the best films of that year." article section: [6] ref: [7]

The above two sentences are not supported by their references. Aren't those cases where "the material in the article conflicts with a used-reference"? Sorry to keep discussing this, but I am genuinely baffled that we don't agree on this. --Kai Carver (talk) 03:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

The first pair of of links is a section in this article, and a source. There is certainly not a conflict between the material and the references. One could argue either way on whether the reference supports the material or whether the material is or isn't a good and acceptable summary of sourced material for that section. If your opinion is not, then go tag / change / discuss it.....you are really in the wrong place for a debate on that. The second pair of links is to a section is a different article (not this one) and a source. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 04:06, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Precious

scouting adventure
Thank you for quality articles, on scouting and on ships, such as SS Edmund Fitzgerald, for teamwork, for bringing "some reason to chaos", for: "view every opponent ... as a current or potential friend", - repeating: you are an awesome Wikipedian (3 July 2010)!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! It means a lot! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:02, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

CD RFC/U

After this morning's actions I didn't think waiting made any more sense. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:14, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:V

Your recent revert of my revert is simply edit warring and can very much be seen as actual tag teaming. While you support the prose as I reverted back to you reverted based on issues that are not relevant to such a revert. I also wish to urge you to refrain from accusing any editor of tag teaming without just cause. I feel I now have such just cause to accuse you of such. However (and I think I have come to know you well enough to know this will not impress you) I also have a great deal of respect for you as an editor and feel this need not be escalated to AN/I unless you feel so inclined.

I am curious though. What exactly is it that makes you feel that there was any tag teaming?--Amadscientist (talk) 05:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

First a couple of notes from the happenings there:

• I referred to it as accidental tag teaming.
• My edit summary recaps the important points, it said: "Undid revision. I am changing it away from the version that I DO prefer and to the version that I do NOT prefer so that the last stable version is in there while we talk. This should be decided in talk." And I did exactly what the two admins subsequently did, and for the same reasons which they gave. So I edited AGAINST my own preference on that topic in order to support going about a proper process for making a disputed change in a a core core policy. There is no way that that is tag teaming or edit warring.

Answering your last question, I did a full reach of AGF and said accidental tag teaming. I was referring to simply the mechanics of what was happening there (prior to the intervention by myself and the two admins.) And that was that the disputed changed version was sitting there just due to the fact that 2 vs. 1 ran the "1" up against the 3RR bright line, not due to any decision in talk. So I was ONLY reflecting on the math of what was happening and did not mean to imply that some type of offense was occurring. Such an implication would not be out of line, but it was not my intent. I tried to make that very clear.....it would have been better if I had tripled up on that effort. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:47, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Just one comment to your post. Edits are considered part of consensus.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Hopefully we're cool. Thanks for all that you do for Wikipedia. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Foundation for Economic Education Good Article Nomination

The Foundation for Economic Education article citations with page numbers now all have exact page numbers. --Abel (talk) 18:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Wow! What an immense amount of good work! I'll give it a look in accordance with the discussed plan. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:17, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Progressive utilization theory

FYI: Per your previous involvement in the discussion, I thought you might be interested in commenting in Talk:Progressive utilization theory#Proposal to replace current content. (I must say I'm looking forward to being finished with this one!) Location (talk) 22:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. I had forgotten that I commented there. I'd be happy to take a look. North8000 (talk) 01:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Linsey Alexander

It was nice having an old friend out there. I started the article and then took a break to cross-country ski in 3 feet of new snow and came back to a tag for speedy deletion. I'll be away for a couple days so I hope no one gets hasty. Thank you for the defense of the Linsey Alexander article.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 02:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

My pleasure. Tagging it for deletion minutes after it was created and where in minutes I found multiple wp:notability-suitable sources was a bit much. I think that it's clearly wp:notable and now has the sources so it should be on firm ground now. But I'll be watching it. Enjoy the snow. Paradise Below Zero! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Ian Gillan

Just a quick note, now the dust has settled a bit, the editor who disrupted this, and derailed the GA review, Plant's Strider (talk · contribs), has been blocked for edit warring, so I'm going to give this another go for GA this week. There are some things I want to improve first, such as being a lot more familiar with the various sourcing tags on articles since I originally put this up, so I'd like to do them first. I'd rather not have to wait five months again for another GA review, so would you be up for tackling it? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy to. Just ping me when you nominate it. Actually, even better, if you feel like it, also ping me just before you nominate it. If there are any significant issues (in particular, have things really settled down? / stability) it would be better to acknowledge/ deal with them then. Neither of us wants another non-pass. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Having compared what's there now to what I did in August, most of the content is pretty intact. The main things are the formatting for sources (an activity I find as exciting as watching grass grow, hence why I haven't done it yet), and the lead basically wants to be nuked and done again. The trouble seems to have been with new editors springing up and starting to write stuff without realising that if it's at GA or FA, you'll hack people off if you're not careful. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Not sure how far you are going regarding source formatting....GA does not require it per se. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I've done what I wanted to do, and the article is now up for GA again. See Talk:Ian Gillan. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:28, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Government waste

Just created an entry for government waste. For the longest time I assumed that, given the notability of the topic, the entry had already been created long ago. Better late than never I suppose. It's just a rough outline so there's considerable room for improvement. There's plenty of material on the subject so any assistance scouring sources and propagating pleasant prose would be appreciated. No worries if you have other priorities. Cheers. --Xerographica (talk) 21:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up and invite! I'm spread a little thin right now but will have a look. North8000 (talk) 23:11, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

So many topics so little time. I moved other people's money to a subpage... User:Xerographica/Other people's money. Figure it's going to be deleted...but perhaps, if we have time, we can improve it enough where it wouldn't be deleted. --Xerographica (talk) 03:55, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Single-payer behavior

The only terrible behavior has been of you and Thargor edit-warring against the consensus and inserting an obvious POV. If I recall you two did "report" my behavior to which the result was nil. The fact is you know very well what you and Thargor are doing and yet continue to do so. CartoonDiablo (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

No I have not yet done so / reported you. I have put one sentence into the RFC/U which recently commenced on you, but that is not what I am referring to potentially doing. Please quit the crap, which you are repeating here. As I clearly indicated, I don't even have a preference much less a POV on the question which you are warring on. Every stage of my work there was explicitly just on trying to get a working process in place there. My note to you on your talk page remains the case. North8000 (talk) 23:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Second Amendment pre-Heller

Hi North. Help me out. Because I'm confused here. And if I can understand where you're coming from, perhaps we can avoid the long process of requesting a comment and/or mediation:

1)Do you know of any United States case ever in all of US history prior to 2000 that ever found the individual theory to be valid?

2) Are you aware of all the many Federal Court cases from 1942-2000 interpreting Miller that found the collective theory to be the only valid interpretation beginning with Cases v. United States (http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34446_20080411.pdf)  ?

Frankly I'm confused. If your answer to the first question is "no" and your answer to the second question is "yes", then what are we arguing over? And if you disagree, please be precise as to exactly what you disagree about (and provide a source please for your interpretation of pre-Heller history that cites cases as I've done).GreekParadise (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Getting right to the point, (vaguely speaking for brevity) there were no real rulings on the core question until the 21st century. I believe that you are trying to say that lack of a "individual right" finding is a basis to put something in imply that that the precedent is considered to be findings of the opposite. IMHO from every standpoint (logical, history and wiki-policies) that is not correct. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:13, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Please read United States v. Warin, 530 F.2d 103, 106 (6th Cir. 1976) -- http://www.guncite.com/court/fed/530f2d103.html -- which sets forward a long list of cases with this view. For a more recent case, check out Love v. Peppersack, 47 F.3d 120, 123 (4th Cir. 1995) (“the lower federal courts have uniformly held that the Second Amendment preserves a collective, rather than individual right.”). You may feel that the entire body of Federal case law from 1942-2000 on the Second Amendment was wrongly decided -- if so, you're not alone in that view...you're joined by five current members of the Supreme Court! -- but read the CRS article I provided. Like it or not, that was the clear and undisputed law in every Federal court that decided a Second Amendment case after Miller and before Emerson. Do you deny these are "real rulings on the core question"? I concede there is no Supreme Court ruling between Miller and Heller, but I never said there was. I'm not "trying to say" anything but to cite the facts. What are you "trying to say"? That these cited facts aren't true? Or are unimportant? Or that telling people what the law was pre-Heller is biased? With due respect, I honestly don't understand your objection. Are you saying the NYT Chief Supreme Court reporter filed a false report? If so, you should demand the NYT post a correction. (Ironic, as there is a correction already in it.) But on what grounds is it false? And on what grounds is the CRS and LOC false? You haven't cited a single source. And I've now found dozens for the simple proposition that prior to Heller, the collective view was the law in every Federal court that considered the case from 1942-2000. If you don't like the phrasing, fine. Let's work together to find phrasing you do like. Or, if we can't reach an agreement, I am willing to go to request for comment or mediation. I'd also like to see what Celestra comes up with it. Celestra does believe the Congressional Research Service is a reliable source. Do you disagree?

GreekParadise (talk) 05:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Respectfully, I find that three are immense logical flaws and false implied premises in what you are inferring above and your efforts to support what you are trying to insert. This will be a substantial conversation. If you prefer a separate discussion here that would be fine with me but otherwise perhaps we should move this to the article talk page? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. I was hoping we could work it out here, but we can talk there. Have you read the Congressional Research Service report which found the collective view was the view of the federal courts from 1942-2000? Please let me know if you have read it and if you disagree with this characterization. And if so, on what basis. P.S. The article by Liptak was no more an op-ed than footnote 4 upon which the lede relies on for its holding on Heller and McDonald. If you don't accept it, we have to delete the second paragraph of the lede.GreekParadise (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Either venue is fine....that was just a suggestion. I skimmed CRS report...it is quality stuff. IMHO it indicates that the core question was undecided in the courts as of when it was written.....so what you are wanting to put in directly conflicts with that. North8000 (talk) 16:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments

I just wanted to drop by and thank you for your kind words on the Libertarianism Talk page. I'm sorry to have leapt to that conclusion, but it honestly appeared that our past conflicts were getting in the way of collaboration. I think we both want the same thing on that article (less anarchism, more "right-libertarianism"), so I hope we can work together to accomplish this. Again, thank you, and I wish you all the best! -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 22:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. When people who disagree with me stand their ground but don't resort to bad tactics I not only do not consider that to be a conflict, I respect them for that and enjoy the conversations. That is how I viewed our previous interaction, so I had not the slightest minus regarding you going into this. There was one moment which was (merely) frustrating which was on my talk page, right when you and I dissected the debate to it's logical essence you politely bailed. But that was just a "after all of that work, just when we were so close" frustration. Thanks for the post.

There is a lot of history at the Libertarianism article. 2 1/2 years ago that article situation was really in flames, like the nearly worst that I think I've seen in any article. My roles starting then has been a sort of a middle of the road facilitator. First we got it cooled down and eventually we discovered a few Rosetta stones that helped sort it out....that we were talking two different languages. It turns out that the word [Libertarian] has two different common meanings in the US vs. Europe. Not just that different strands are practiced on opposite sides of the pond, but two fundamentally different meanings. The common meaning in the US is simply (setting a priority on) "less government, more freedom." END OF DEFINITION. I won't explain the meaning in Europe, I think you know it better than I. I think that the primary reason for this is that in the US the word "liberal" has been transformed/corrupted to mean "bigger government". And so a new word was needed for (classical)liberalism, and that word is libertarianism. And so another difference is that the common meaning in Europe is defined by lengthier philosophical definitions (e.g. whether they are for or against private ownership of resources, the moot question of whether they would take the US all the way to anarchism). Trying to view / define common US libertarianism in the context of such fleshed-out political philosophies taxonomies is imagining things. I think that you are tending to make that error. BTW the common meaning of anarchism/anarchist in the USA is people who throw firebombs in riots or motorcycle gangs who take over towns. So there another educational job we have in the article.

The article has been pretty reasonably peaceful despite the fact that nearly everybody there would prefer to take it to one extreme or the other. That is the situation that you are stepping into. Welcome aboard! North8000 (talk) 01:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks! You are correct about the changing meaning of the term liberal, but to expound on that, the differences between common US and European political terminology stem from the USA's history as a nation born of Liberal philosophy: whereas European conservatives wished to conserve the absolute, monarchical system of rule, US conservatives wanted to conserve the Liberal values of our nascent nation (social freedom, laissez-faire capitalism, and a secular and democratic nation). During the early USA's adherence to laissez-faire capitalism (or nearly so), liberal came to mean those who wanted the government to put an end to what many saw as the resulting labor abuses (e.g. child labor, long hours, unsafe work conditions); this relationship between capitalists and the government is sometimes referred to as state capitalism. As these two political ideologies evolved, the conservatives became more accepting of the stronger, centralized government for which the liberals pushed, though for quite different reasons (e.g. national defense, foreign interventionism, the legislation of traditional/religious values), eventually earning the label neoconservative. Those who wanted less government manipulation (and therefore more freedom) began identifying as libertarians because both the liberals and conservatives (aka neoliberals) sought a more powerful state, even though all three are Liberals--I'm using a capital L here to distinguish adherents of the political philosophy from the lay meaning. In Europe, of course, conservative meant conserving the absolute rule of the monarchy, liberal referred to an advocate of democracy and free trade, and libertarian was a synonym for anarchist (which also carried an anti-capitalist connotation, hence its common classification as a leftist philosophy). This is also why libertarianism and anarchism are organized into left and right categories: left-anarchism refers to the traditional, socialist anarchism; right-anarchism refers to egoist anarchism (the former is kind of like a stateless feudalism in my opinion) or the relatively recent anarcho-capitalism; left-libertarianism refers to the socialist anarchism; and right-libertarianism refers to a capitalist ideology that seeks less government, with considerable debate over whether this entails anarchism or minarchism. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 00:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Carpal tunnel and you

Hey North. I'm glad my solution worked on Ian Gillan. Having just looked and seen how you performed the fix though, I figured you must be unfamiliar with the native search and replace tool we now have. On the editing toolbar there is an easily missed icon (it's all alone at the far right side, away from all the others) that looks like this . With it you could have replaced all of the {{sfn|Gillan's with {{sfn|Gillan|Cohen in one click. (In the old days I would have done it by dropping the whole article's edit content into a word processing program to do the same thing). Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Didn't know that it was in the Wikipedia interface. Thanks! I knew that I could do it globally using other tools but decided on the one-by-one route to be cautious, and to de-bundle in case there was an issue with some. Plus it's good early AM wake-up therapeutic work. :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk)

CartoonDiablo

You feel exactly the same way about CartoonDiablo's behavior as I feel about Thargor Orlando's. I could have written exactly the same paragraph as you did, swapping the user names. Perhaps there is something we can learn from that? -- Scjessey (talk) 03:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I try to be objective. If you are talking about their behavior during the last 1-2 months then I would have to question your statement and ask you where it comes from. During that period IMHO I think that it is pretty clear that TO has clearly been behaving well and CD clearly badly. If you are talking about something prior to that then I would have to plead ignorance. I was not "present" then and did not look back into history.

BTW I've just gotta tell you something that stuck in my mind from when I was looking around trying to learn/understand you, which included reading your statement of politics on your user page.....maybe a bigger "learn something from that" moment. Based on what you wrote, we have about 95% the same politics, yet your comments indicate an assumption that that we have opposite politics. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:10, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, but those 5% probably mean everything! -- Scjessey (talk) 15:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, the 5% is that I am undecided/torn about more government involvement in health care, and I'm a friendly-to-religion atheist. North8000 (talk) 17:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not interested in having government run the health care system. Health care professionals run health care. What I want to see is government financing health care through taxation fully. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Not saying its good or bad (it's probably a mixture of the two) , but taxing/paying does inevitably mean controlling it to a significant extent. North8000 (talk) 12:06, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

RfD:Other people's money

Hello, North8000. You recently participated in discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Other people's money. You may be interested in a discussion I have initiated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 February 2#Other people's money. Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 03:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

File:CarrieNewcomer.jpg

Can you add the OTRS ticket, please? --evrik ^(talk) 17:24, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It is exactly as I wrote when I put it up, (and rock solidly-so) and I don't have one. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:19, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

February 2013

Hello, I'm Jenova20. I noticed that you made a comment on the page User talk:HiLo48 that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Even if assumed here and here were not aimed at me, they still constitute a personal attack and you should know better. Keep it up with you want to end up at ANI again, or cut out the petty digs and work on the encyclopedia. If i see another unprovoked attack aimed anywhere near me then we'll have a thread on ANI. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:38, 6 February 2013 (UTC) ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:38, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, you missed that boat twice over on that one. First, who said anything about you? (or anybody in particular). I just said 1 or 2 folks on that page, an immense page with an immense number of people on it. Second, even if if I had referred to anybody, it was a discussion about bad and destructive behavior which would not be a personal attack. North8000 (talk) 11:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Read WP:Civil. There is no exception to making uncivil accusations against users just because another users civility is in question on the same page. Your accusations were uncalled for and unhelpful. Please refrain from doing it again. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:50, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Your post has so many false statements and false implied false premises in it that it is too flawed to make sense out of much less answer. North8000 (talk) 12:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Well whatever, that is the same argument as always from you. Either way, if i see another instance i'll be taking it to ANI. This discussion is over for me now. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 12:23, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe more common for what you write, but in general not common. Other than that, same answer as my previous one. North8000 (talk) 12:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

NRA Edit warring

I agree the content on sandy hook should guards should be in, per the talk consensus. I'll leave a message on Athenes talk asking her to come to talk. We're going to get blocked at this pace and I'd rather we not be. Thx much.-Justanonymous (talk) 19:53, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. I plan to stay miles from going that far. But it certainly is relevant if commentary is going to be included. North8000 (talk) 20:01, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Assault weapon

You reverted my edit here. I've restored it. The article uses a bunch of named references, but included the full cite template anyways. This is unnecessary when named references exist and it creates a lot of wikimarkup hurting readability. Ryan Vesey 00:16, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. That's cool. North8000 (talk) 10:13, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

GA Instructions

I have completed a redo of the current nomination page with the revised instructions here. What do you think?--Dom497 (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

WOW, nice work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Weak suggestions

What you think of making it a linked page instead of templates so that it is accessible for people to edit and evolve/improve it?

Stronger Suggestions

• The links to it are way too small, bordering on hidden. Also be sure to link from the main GA page to, not just the GAN page
• Has some typos. I'd fix them but it takes me too long to figure out how to find and get into that template. Spelling on eligable, ineligable, "deleted" s/b "delete"
• Under "partial review" probably should be "if nobody responds" not just if the nominator doesn't respond
• Eventually the distinction between waiting for fixes while "under review" and using "on hold" to wait for fixes should be clarified.
• When you say "Also, if the article is part of any WikiProjects, make sure you change the rating of the article through the WikiProject's template that is found on the talk page." you need to tell them what to put in there.

Nice work!!!!!

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:16, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! I will address you comments when I get a chance.--Dom497 (talk) 01:45, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Tea Party Movement, POV pushing, and TE

Hi, here to ask you about some allegations/accusations you made on Talk:Tea Party movement - would you please provide diffs of the objectionable behavior? You may do so here or on my talk page, thanks much! KillerChihuahua 16:27, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

With the one individual it was an assessment drawn from scores or hundreds of edits over several years, with the latest being warring to remove the 2007 Ron Paul Tea Party from the Tea Part movement article. With the other individual it was less frequent but much ruder, again drawing for scores of edits over the years. Also warring to remove the same thing. Right now its just to try to spotlight and recognize the problem to get that corrected at that one article. If I'm going to spend many hours digging out 150 diffs it would probably to obtain some action against those two persons, which I am not currently seeking. As I pointed out when someone noted that one of them violated the editing restriction at the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:04, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Not asking for 150, but it would have been nice to see at least one. If you can't be bothered to do even that, then I advise you to cease making such accusations. KillerChihuahua 20:34, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The conclusions were drawn collectively from the hundreds of observations. Are you saying one example of it happening (which I thought was obvious from the post), or one example that singly proves that the behavior is occurring? The latter does not exist.....it took me years of observation of hundreds of actions before I considered it to be established certainly enough to make the statements.North8000 (talk) 20:42, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how clear I can make this. If you cannot make a case to someone else, you need to hush up about it. Otherwise you're just slinging around unsubstantiated allegations, which might rebound on you and will cause no sanctions against him. Puppy has spoken; puppy is done. KillerChihuahua 20:51, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

My intention was that noting the behavior at the article might be enough to reduce the problem there. I'm willing to leave it at that. But if you are going to say or imply that me having noted the behavior is wrong unless I now start building the cases, then I'll start working on building them. Let me know. And, while we're talking about my well-founded statements which I made only after years of careful observation there, there are other accusations that those two made on that page which fall a few levels short of that.... which not only had no basis, but ran contrary to what was on that very page. Will you go to work on those too as I point them out? North8000 (talk) 22:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

No diff = no "looking into", no actions. So either stop with the vague allegations, or post a diff. End of story, full stop. KillerChihuahua 22:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

It has been many days since I have discussed the behavior of any individuals. I can return that that if you wish, but otherwise have been willing to leave it at what I said several days ago. North8000 (talk) 22:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Please be more circumspect in your comments

Hello, I'm KillerChihuahua. I noticed that you made a comment on the page Talk:Tea Party movement that didn't seem very civil. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Stop attacking other editors as you did here, you are promoting a hostile atmosphere. KillerChihuahua 22:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I pointed out an extreme violation of wp:civil and wp:agf and attacking of another editor. I think that you are very involved on this in a way that is not objective. North8000 (talk) 22:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Your definition of "involved" is not the Wikipedia definition, then. This was a warning. Whatever you think you did, you violated CIVIL and NPA on an article under probation, and are in danger of sanctions. Heed me or ignore me, but I advise heeding me. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua 23:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I addressed the specifics at the article and asked what I think is a very valid and pertinent question. I think that the you/me interaction could use a third party set of eyes if this goes any further. Which need not be. I just want that if there are going to be any comments on individuals, that they reflect an objective analysis what has been happening at that talk page, including the actions of others. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. KillerChihuahua 02:22, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Your AN/I comments

I am not going to address the content of your comment, but I would suggest that you go through them and fix the username of the editor whose name you repeatedly misspelled. Her name is Killer Chihuahua, not Killer Chinchilla. If you are going to attack another editor, you might as well get her name right. Horologium (talk) 03:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Since when is carefully questioning the objectivity of someone who is impugning me "attacking"? But I thanked them for the correction in the uname and fixed it. North8000 (talk) 03:52, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

An RFAR has been filed

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Tea Party movement / US politics and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for arbitration;
• Wikipedia:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, KillerChihuahua 05:56, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Due Process

I won't let your right to speak on gun control/tea party/etc. issues be infringed. You will not be topic-banned! As you remember, we disagreed vehemently on the VN/T issue. I believe I even probably called for you to be topic-banned, during the heat of the "battle". Silencing one's opponents is a great way to win an argument; but what happens when things aren't so "black-and-white"? If you ever need help with the anti-rights party, do not hesitate to ping me! Doc talk 09:17, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

No one has any "rights" on Wikipedia to infringe. This is not a democracy. I believe North8000 is aware that we are not here to "speak on gun control/tea party/etc." or any other subject. We are here to summarize reliable sources and write an accurate encyclopedia. The above troubles me greatly because it appears to be a very distinctive battelground mentality and I recommend North not involve themselves in such actions or support. Take a breath, step back and cool down. I doubt arbcom will take the case and clearly admin has moved the discussion just for taking up too much room, and that was closed, so there is little to worry about from what I see.--Amadscientist (talk) 09:36, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

It shouldn't trouble you that greatly. As Jimbo has said many times: "We are not transcription monkeys". North8000 has his opinions, and I support his right to express them as much as I support those who strive to strip him of his opinions. The "right-wing" is vilified far too much by the liberal media. Do you actually contest that the media is controlled by the "left"? Carry on. Doc talk 09:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Frankly there is no way of telling if you are doing this as a way to make North look as bad as possible. For that reason I would note that at this point North has absolutely nothing to do with this post. We have no rights to express any opinion here. You may say whatever politicaly motivated statements you wish on a usertalkpage but this isnot acceptable on an article talkpage. North is an experianced editor and i truly believe he understands that we are not here to take a stand on any issue regardless of our own opinions. I very much doubt I am giving him too much credit here.--Amadscientist (talk) 09:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

If you do some research on journalism in general you will discover that 1) the notion of a "liberal media" is a myth; it doesn't exist 2) journalists are more conservative than other professionals and tend to be centrist 3) most media outlets are business-oriented and lean right. The nonexistent "liberal media" is a favored bugaboo of the populist right, and they use it to sell books and attract radio listeners. That it doesn't exist doesn't seem to matter. Viriditas (talk) 09:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no interest in making North8000 look "bad" or "good". I am allowed to show my support for that issue, and support for his right to express his position on issues. "Don't Tread On Me" - and I won't tread on you. Doc talk 10:03, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

We have no rights on Wikipedia. Don't threaten me please.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That's an American expression - it was not a threat towards you in any way whatsoever. Yeesh... Doc talk 10:24, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

It was a clear threat Doc regardless of it being an expression. "Don't...and I wont...on you." It is clear you have an agenda, the question is, are you not here at all to build an encyclopedia? It looks that way to me at this point.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:27, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

See Gadsden flag (and more specifically Gadsden_flag#Tea_Party_Movement_symbol) I don't think it was used as a threat (but it could be perceived as one). Viriditas (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I am fully aware of the expression Viriditas...but it is not ""Don't Tread On Me" - and I won't tread on you." It is simply "Don't tread on me" period. It was indeed used as a threat and was taken as such.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:36, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

And as yet, a simple apology has yet to be extended so the threat stands.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Correct on the Gasden flag! It's been American expression for quite some time. As for me, I've been here for over five years, Amadscientist. I've added plenty of content, references, etc. Reverted a ton of vandals. Weighed in on issues more important than this. You can look at me as hard as you want to: but you're wasting your time. How do you really think I was "threatening" you? Nope. Same team, bro. ;P Doc talk 10:40, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You used a partisan expression to make a threat against another editor as a means of intimidation. I do not take these issues lightly. Yes, you have been here long enough to know better. I know you will not apologize because that would defeat the purpose of intimidation and the chill effect you desire. Simply put, you crossed a line and are now on notice. Do not extend your own additon of what you intend to do after using that expression and you wont be guilty of threatening others. I would accept your premise if you were capable of an apology. Since one is not forthcoming I see this as a threat to do further "battle" with me in the future against our civility guidelines and policy. Be aware you can be blocked for such actions after making such threats.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:49, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds like... a threat. It's not my first day here, buddy. See below. Cheers... Doc talk 11:00, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you intended it as a threat. In its original usage the phrase is intended as a warning (this is explained in the linked article); one should not step on the metaphorical snake lest one get bitten. A warning is somewhat different than the threat the snake represents: the snake does not attack unless it is provoked, and its bite is deadly. Be warned, but do not feel threatened! I actually understand this on a personal level, because I was around a lot of rattlesnakes as a child. I never felt threatened, but I knew not to step on them. Viriditas (talk) 10:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

LOL! I grew up in rattlesnake country. I am aware of the actual warning the rattlers gives. It was meant as a threat against me and it was taken as such.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps in hindsight I shouldn't have added the "and I won't tread on you", as I can see it being interpreted as a threat. But I never meant it that way at all: I was just attempting to expand on the concept in general. My apologies if any other meanings were inferred. I did not intend to threaten anyone. Doc talk 10:54, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Doc. I accept your apology and thank you for extending it.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:58, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

By the way, rattlesnake does not taste like chicken...no matter what anyone says.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:00, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

All is well :> Doc talk 11:01, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, nice to have y'all visiting! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. CartoonDiablo (talk) 03:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Dragonofthewest

Not sure if that's one of the IPs, a sock, or something else, but I'm hesitant to report it until we see something from it. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:46, 28 February 2013 (UTC) Well, a SPA's 100% of whose lifetime edits are to edit war on that one page. North8000 (talk) 16:25, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Austrian School.

Hello North. Please review WP:IDHT and WP:CON. Your points on Austrian School talk have been answered many times by various editors. Time to move on. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:56, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I've barely been involved in the general debate and that is not what this is about. I first asked that question a half hour ago and it was about something you first said an hour ago. And you've not answered it. I'm particularly interested on where exactly the "without explicit agreement" came from. North8000 (talk) 15:29, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

But never mind. The point/goal was to say to just stick to discussing the merits of the topic at hand. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:12, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I'm not supposed to post here (I came to this page for a different reason), but SPECIFICO, seriously, just asserting the same "I'm already correct so there" thing over and over is not going to work. This is getting very old. Please stop this nonsense, or at least keep it to talk pages. Thanks. Byelf2007 (talk) 1 March 2013

Quick question

"published stuff that I wrote in other technical fields gets cited by others in Wikipedia, and people ask me to read and decode technical stuff for them"

Awesome. What are these? Where do I find it? I'm curious because you've been such an active, articulate, and fair editor for so long on pages I'm also interested in. Byelf2007 (talk) 1 March 2013

(for the benefit of other readers, I wrote those comments in tandem with a statement that I remained a dummy on a topic after reading its article, saying it needed to be more explanatory) Thank you so much for those compliments. Those are the things that I absolutely strive for. I have come to realize that trying bring POV'd articles to the center marks you as an opponent of people who don't want things brought to neutral. And they conduct war by calling their "opponent" all kinds of bad things.

Unfortunately answering your question here would out myself. Perhaps we could establish a trusted rapport by email and I could then tell you. Thanks for asking! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Gun Control Article Bias

If we need to take this to arbitration, we can. I don't want to edit war on the article ..... the bias at the moment is extreme, the pov pushing is glaring, and the format is deficient. If Stopyourbull wants to work it out on the talk I'm all for that but if this is just going to be obstructionist, I'd rather get some admins who are entirely outside of this field and help us write a good descriptive article on the topic vs some of what is there. Thoughts?-Justanonymous (talk) 18:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Admins aren't going to guide content. I think we should edit and discuss towards normal quality article standards in line with Wikipedia policies. That one article is so out of line from those that those will go a long way. If any individual starts really being bad then that would be the time to go to admins on any behavio5r issues. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed-- He's reverting the deletion of weasel words and non-facts though. Edit warring will surely bring the admins but I don't want to get banned. I'll see what I can do. Thx for the help.-Justanonymous (talk) 19:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Warning

I'm sure you watch KillerChihuahua's page, but just to make sure you don't miss my warning there[8] I'll repeat myself: don't post on KC's page again or you'll be blocked for harassment. I'm surprised a polite request from a person you know is unwell wasn't enough for you. Bishonen | talk 12:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC).

It was very friendly & complimentary, & I indicated confidence and trust of them in a potential review of an article situation, and they didn't / haven't mentioned it again so I thought it was OK with them. North8000 (talk) 12:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Para-skiing classification articles

Thanks for your reviews of these articles, which were nominated last October. Sorry it took me a week to respond, but my watchlist has been flooded by bot edits. I believe that all points have been addressed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 18:53, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I've been helping trying to reduce the backlog at wp:gan. Including tackling 5 of these at once. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The one item I raised is repeated across the articles. I figure we can use LW3 as an example to sort it out. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Where are we up to with this? Amy chance of wrapping it up? Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I've been both sick and traveling. Plus I'm doing seven of these at once, two of them recently nominated ones at your request. But I think we can be all wrapped up within 2-3 days. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:31, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

All but one are passed and finished. I closed out LW3 as being the "coordinating point". The 1 (LW6/8) is awaiting response/discussion. Bewteen who nominated and who is handling I was trying to figure who is who regarding editors....looks like two folks are the main editors and have done a large amount of good work in an interesting area that people would otherwise not know. Nice work! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:41, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Sig

FYI: I think you forgot to sign this edit. Cheers! Location (talk) 15:43, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I had typed one too many tildes. I fixed. North8000 (talk) 11:28, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Tea Party movement arbitration case opened

An arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement/Evidence. Please add your evidence by March 20, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

FYI

Hi North. You were mentioned at the ANI thread Ongoing battle over Prabhat Rainjan Sarkar-related articles. Correct Knowledge^«৳alk» 08:55, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Second Amendment Collective-Rights History

Please review prior to editing or commenting further on the Second Amendment. I have posted it on the Talk Page as well, but I'm reaching out to you and all other editors personally because I sincerely believe when you review the evidence and when you search for contrary evidence, you will see I am correct about this history.

The law WAS collective only prior to Heller. If I show you 3 cases and several commentaries by irrefutably accurate sources and you cannot show me a single case from 1939 to 2000 to refute it, you have to accept that history is history.

Here are some quotes from:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nra-money-helped-reshape-gun-law/2013/03/13/73d71e22-829a-11e2-b99e-6baf4ebe42df_story.html

In 1977 at a Denver hotel, Don Kates paced a conference room lecturing a small group of young scholars about the Second Amendment and tossing out ideas for law review articles. Back then, it was a pretty weird activity in pursuit of a wacky notion: that the Constitution confers an individual right to possess a firearm.

“This idea for a very long time was just laughed at,” said Nelson Lund, the Patrick Henry professor of constitutional law and the Second Amendment at George Mason University, a chair endowed by the National Rifle Association. “A lot of people thought it was preposterous and just propaganda from gun nuts.” ...

The Second Amendment states: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Before the Heller decision, the Supreme Court and lower courts had interpreted the language as “preserving the authority of the states to maintain militias,” according to a Congressional Research Service analysis.

“It was a settled question, and the overwhelming consensus, bordering on unanimity, was that the Second Amendment granted a collective right” enjoyed by the states, not individuals, Bogus said. Under this interpretation, the Constitution provides no right for an individual to possess a firearm.

Lund [Remember he's the NRA-endowed Second-Amendment professor!] agreed that there was a consensus but said it was “based on ignorance.”

OK, you don't trust the Congressional Research Service, the Library of Congress, the New York Times, the Washington Post, or the National Rifle Association-endowed professor of constitutional law and the Second Amendment? How about trusting the courts themselves? Just read these three:

- Cases v. United States, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942)

- United States v. Warin, 530 F.2d 103, 106 (6th Cir. 1976) (“[i]t is clear that the Second Amendment guarantees a collective rather than an individual right.”)

- Love v. Peppersack, 47 F.3d 120, 123 (4th Cir. 1995) (“the lower federal courts have uniformly held that the Second Amendment preserves a collective, rather than individual right.”)

All of them cited Miller. All of them were the law of the land. There's not a single case in all of American history in any court state or federal that found an individual right to bear arms absent service in a militia and struck down a gun law as unconstitutional prior to 2000. I will pay $100 to anyone who can find any case that says so.

Furthermore, there is not a single President prior to 2000 that stated he believed the Supreme Court conferred an individual right to bear arms under the Second Amendment absent service in a militia. Even Reagan didn't believe it. I will pay $100 to anyone who can find any President that stated this position prior to 2000.

Truth is truth. If you don't like truth, you should not be editing wikipedia. Many editors here, I know you believe otherwise. But whoever told you a lie was true was mistaken. Read my sources. Then look for reliable sources on your own. When you can't find any (and if you do, I'll give you $100), I would respectfully request that all of you withdraw your objections. If you don't, then you are clear POV-pushers and should not be editing wikipedia.

Otherwise, if the only way to remove unreliable sources in wikipedia is to put up a request for comment and/or mediation, let's do it. I'll bet my reliable sources against all of your absence of sources any day. There is nothing wrong with admitting you are wrong. People are trying to revise history and some people fall prey to it. Maybe you read something on the Internet from some ignorant blogger and believed it to be true. I respectfully request you look at the sources and come to the only accurate conclusion.

My history is backed up by EVERY judicial decision and EVERY President prior to 2000 and the Library of Congress, and the Congressional Research Service, and the NRA-endowed Professor of the Second Amendment, not to mention the NYT and the WP. And the contrary position is backed up by some sincere mistaken beliefs AND NOT A SINGLE SOURCE.

An honest and ethical wikipedia editor cannot look truth in the face and declare it untrue without a single reliable source to back it up. I will post this on the talk page of every editor who has edited or commented recently because I sincerely want all of you to review the sources before further editing or commenting.

Further sources:

http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34446_20080411.pdf (Congressional Research Service)

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/second-amendment.php (Library of Congress)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html (New York Times)

GreekParadise (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with much of the above, including implied premises, and assertions that claims follow from the quality sources. As you noted you pasted this into a lot of talk pages. In order to not scatter the discussion all over the place, I suggest we have it at the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

But you have refused for THREE MONTHS to provide ONE RELIABLE SOURCE to support your point of view. And you have also refused for THREE MONTHS to deal with the obvious, numerous reliable sources I continuously provide. Since you refuse to read or address my sources and you continue to push a point of view YOU KNOW TO BE OBJECTIVELY UNTRUE, I must sadly conclude that you are purposely acting in bad faith and will act accordingly. If you are not acting in bad faith, why don't you review my sources and/or post a single contrary one? How can I continue to negotiate with someone who refuses to accept reliable sources as true? There's no point in it. On the other hand, if you will review my sources, critique them, and/or provide sources of your own, we can continue the discussion. If you refuse to do so, we have no choice but to go to dispute resolution.GreekParadise (talk) 18:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

You don't understand, and are misstating the situation. The core question is that you want to put into the article that the courts had decided the "individual right vs. collective right only" question prior to Heller, with that decision being "collective right only". While as an aside, that is wrong, the core point is that it is a creative construction that you are trying to war in. The warring without consensus issue aside, that is a classic direct violation of wp:verifiability as well as of wp;nor / wp:synthesis. So what are you saying I am supposed to provide a source for? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Why do you believe that (all courts decided collective only between Miller and Emerson is wrong)? Do you think a) all my nine sources (including the cases themselves!) are false; (b) I have not accurately quoted my sources; or (c) something else? I'm going to do a Request for Comment and/or a dispute resolution and mediation on this point, and I at least would like to know your reasoning on why you think I'm wrong.GreekParadise (talk) 22:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

You are grasping at what I identified as an aside, (an assessment of the status) and are avoiding the main point. Nevertheless, answering on the sources, you have mis-represented the good neutral sources included, and then cherry picked some opinion pieces from amongst the 10's of thousands available that match your opinion. North8000 (talk) 01:26, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "Second Amendment to the United States Constitution".

Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!

CarrieVS (talk) 20:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey dude

I notice and support your comments here and elsewhere regarding the Presidency of Barack Obama article. In particular, your remark about the article possibly being written by the Barack Obama re-election committee is spot on, and you'll find that it generally applies to the Barack Obama Wikibio and all related articles. Genuine criticism has finally started to creep into these articles since Obama won re-election and can't run again, and since Obama has clearly moved closer and closer to George W. Bush on national security issues, such as keeping the Guantanamo Bay detention center open, indefinite detention of unlawful combatants without trial, drone strikes etc. ... mainly because such criticism is coming from the left. Criticism from the right is per se illegitimate. And yet, compare the Obama articles with the George W. Bush and Tony Blair Wikibios, for example. To a very large extent, I've given up on all those articles; they're the worst POV examples I've ever seen on Wikipedia. The common strategy is for the WP:OWNers to claim that the inconvenient content in question is irrelevant, not notable, unsourced (or poorly sourced, or sourced only in "hit pieces" in some "unreliable," "reactionary" publication like the National Review or the Wall Street Journal), or a WP:WEIGHT violation (which I perceive as their ace in the hole, used when all other objections have been defeated). The common resolution they seek is to move the inconvenient content to some other article, "anywhere but here," so that "our" article can remain pristine. Does this sound familiar? To a somewhat lesser extent, I've encountered the same problem with Ugg boots related articles. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I've come to the conclusion that it will take some evolution in policies to fix these. Until then I just occasionally say a few things. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

BTW your expertise on Region 7 has me intrigued. North8000 (talk) 19:34, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm originally from Arizona (my name is a dead giveaway), so Philmont was my High Adventure experience as a Scout, but my older brother ended up going to college (and eventually getting hired and buying a house and getting married) here in the Chicago area, and I eventually followed in his footsteps and lived in his basement when I went to college myself. During the summer breaks from his college classes, he was a staff member at Northern Wisconsin for several summers. I was too young to be involved very much before it closed, but they tore down the base and restored the whole area to its natural state. My brother and I have been camping there several times since then, and all of the old portaging trails and campsites are still there. What I know about the base and its history, I learned from him. It's still got the best beach for swimming in the area, but nobody uses it. And since the Scouts have been gone for 30 years, there's plenty of wood for campfires! Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Cool. And nice addition to the article. As a youth / near-youth I was there twice, once under each name (starting with Region 7). Old fashioned Voyager training (leader training a week before the unit's trip) there was the toughest week in my life (in a nice way) . Is the base public land now? It was much later (as an adult) that I finally made it to Philmont. What a place! North8000 (talk) 17:10, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

The base has always been public land belonging to the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources. But it was leased by the CCC, then by the Scouts, and rumor has it that the rent was $1.00 a year. DNR isn't interested in making money from the land, they're only interested in appropriate uses for the land. Scouting execs who were pushing for a transfer of all Midwest High Adventure resources to Minnesota ensured that all but one of the buildings were demolished. It made a return of High Adventure Scouting to that area almost impossible, but the storage shed is still there. And yes, both Philmont and Northern Wisconsin are incredible. They have a charm and a magnificence that the city dweller may never see. Sunset at White Sand Lake after a day of canoeing, swimming and some truly delectable barbecuing is just about as close to Heaven as I'll ever get on earth. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 07:33, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Re Phoenix and Winslow

Phoenix and Winslow is using unacceptable behavior to support his case on the Ugg boots trademark disputes article. He has altered two other related articles to support his argument for this one and has canvassed an editor to support him in the RFC. He knows he can't canvass as he was reprimanded for doing it in an RFC last year. Can you ask P&W to reign in this behavior or is this something that needs to be done elsewhere? Your advice would be appreciated, Cheers. Wayne (talk) 09:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really the place for behavioral discussions, but the fact that you both have respected my thoughts might mean that I can be of some help. North8000 (talk) 11:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Thx for your help. It may be too late though as Phoenix and Winslow has just made some false accusations against myself and User:Mandurahmike. Wayne (talk) 13:18, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Well mate, you've falsely accused MONGO. You produce so many distortions and so much spin that it takes forever to unravel them all. Fortunately, at Franklin child prostitution ring allegations you've run into a brick wall called WP:BLP, your favorite source was unanimously declared unreliable at WP:RSN, admins stubbed the article to get rid of your mountain of BLP violations, and none of the nutball followers of Lyndon Larouche have shown up to help you yet. So you have no friends there, and your love affair with WP:FRINGE conspiracy theories cannot be indulged at Wikipedia's expense. In the Ugg boots articles, however, your fellow Australians frequently come to your aid and WP:BLP concerns are easily avoided. You can safely vent your obvious frustrations from the Franklin article, and indulge in the usual Wikilawyering practice of raising objection after objection; after they've all been exhaustively defeated, rely on WP:WEIGHT and WP:ROC (which are are almost entirely Wikipedia editors' opinions) and your numerous Australian friends to "send that inconvenient but well-sourced content anywhere but here; we have a biased narrative we're trying to post to the world in Wikipedia's voice." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:31, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the specific topic in dispute at the moment (inclusion of counterfeiting cases) I don't think that there is a clear-cut answer. I would think that that would be the type of thing that folks would not be overly concerned about either way. IMHO the gorilla in the living room is that you two have a lot of rough history with each other and are on pretty rough terms with each other. And that seems to be overshadowing any differences in opinion regarding content. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:53, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I request permission to transclude (copy) a portion of your post from the "GA criteria final checklist" section to the "Survey" section. I don't want anyone denying that we have consensus at some future date because your opinion is being ignored. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm a bit concerned about the meaning changing if taken out of context, but a quote of what I said that indicates and/or keeps the context would be fine. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Don't worry, I'll be extra careful about preserving your meaning. Please inspect after I transclude it. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm assuming you mean quote it rather than Wikipedia transclusion tools. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Reviewer Barnstar
		For your review of Paralympic classification articles. Thank you! Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:12, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! And nice work on the articles! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:30, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

User:LauraHale did all the work. I just shepherded them through the review process. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:53, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Naval History

Hi, 'North8000', I'm a member of WikiProject Ships. To help naval historians here at Wikipedia in the effort of writing and citing naval history articles sometime ago I created the List of ships captured in the 19th century and Bibliography of early American naval history pages. Over the last year(+) I have been tracking down and including names of captured ships and naval history texts for inclusion in either of these articles. I like to think that I have included most captured ships (19th century) and most naval history texts (1700s-1800s) for inclusion in these articles, so if you know of any captured ships or naval history texts that are not included would you kindly include them, either on the page or the talk page of the appropriate article? Any help would be a big help and feedback is always welcomed. Thanx! -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite. Will do. North8000 (talk) 16:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Simon Wiesenthal

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Simon Wiesenthal. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Will have a look and comment. North8000 (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Gun control

Hi, please see Gun control and Talk:Gun control. I decided to go ahead and be WP:BOLD. I restructured and rewrote the article according to some suggestions in the discussion. I snipped a LOT of excess arguing and POV violations, moved the authoritarianism section into history of gun control, and condensed some info into the Arguments section. The arguments section still needs some trimming/balancing. Feedback is appreciated. ROG5728 (talk) 20:53, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite. Will do. North8000 (talk) 02:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Charlize Theron

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Charlize Theron. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Will do. North8000 (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Here are some cookies for you

	Here's a plate full of cookies to share!
	Hi North8000, here are some delicious cookies to help brighten your day! However, there are too many cookies here for one person to eat all at once, so please share these cookies with at least two other editors by copying {{subst:Sharethecookies}} to their talk pages. Enjoy! Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! North8000 (talk) 16:46, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Gun control

Hi North8000,

I asked a reasonable question on the Gun Control talk page about why the article contains questions about gun control from random non-experts. Not getting an answer, I then removed the quotations, which are a violation of WP:UNDUE. You then reverted my edit with the following edit summary: "Undo mass deletion. Please get consensus in talk." My edit was not a mass deletion, it was the removal of quotations from random non-experts. Please answer my reasonable question on the talk page rather than engaging in an edit war. — goethean 15:39, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Happy to discuss, but stop with the bogus "edit war" accusation. I did one revert of your deletion of a large amount of long-standing material (two if you count reverting your blanking of the entire section) You have also mis-represented the time line. You had already deleted the material two times prior to the linked question, (three times if you include your prior blanking of the entire section)so none of your deletions were after waiting and and "not getting an answer" to the linked question. And the first time you asked a similar one was only three hours before that and someone quickly answered it. North8000 (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Long-standing material? I don't know about that, but there has been lots of edit warring at the article as recently as March 2013.[9] It looks to me like a coalition of opponents of gun control won that series of edit wars and now we have an article which is clearly POV and which contradicts another article on the exact same subject. This type of thing has in the past been called a POV fork; I trust that I don't need to link to the corresponding Wikipedia policy. — goethean 16:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Saying that if the content of one section of a broad article conflicts with a more specialized article that the broad article is a wp:POV fork? North8000 (talk) 16:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The above machinations aside, I think that it would be good to talk about whether or not to have that material in there (I'm on the fence, with a bit of a lean towards "yes" and I started that conversation there. North8000 (talk) 22:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

That's the second time that you've used the word "machinations" in reference to my reasonable questions. According to Merriam-Webster, the word means (1) "to plan or plot especially to do harm",[10] or (2) "a scheming or crafty action or artful design intended to accomplish some usually evil end".[11] A more sensitive person than I might take offense. — goethean 22:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I intended it in a much more benign usage that I've seen (along the lines of "maneuvers") and did not realize that there were also such rough definitions. My apologies, I did not intend it that way. I struck and changed it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

This is fun

I only just noticed the funny spelling of automatically in your statement on the TPM discussion subpage. You wrote: "If a local TP'er farted in public, and some papers hostile to the TPM decided to maximize coverage of the fart, that does not aromatically make the fart germane to or suitable for or useful for the top level TPM article."[my emphasis]. This is quite frankly a hilarious mistake, of the kind that we all sometimes make. I laughed out loud, and I am just sharing it with hoping you'll laugh with me.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

-)  :-) I guess I inadvertently wrote a good one there! Maybe I shouldn't fix it!  :-) Thanks! North8000 (talk) 00:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I love it when the brain's neural network structure interferes like that, one word just brings the next one to mind. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Sesame Street media GAN

Hey North, wanted to let you know that I responded to the question you posed. Let me know what you think of what I said. Oh, and thanks so much for the review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Happy to do it. I've been trying to help reduce the backlog, and I noticed that yours was one of those that has been waiting the longest. I'll go over the the review page. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:35, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate it. And I've made some additional comments over there since. I'm a fairly active GA reviewer myself. I also try and review the ones in the oldest unreviewed articles list myself, because I suspect that it's more helpful to do so. I've come to the conclusion, though, that there's a reason those articles don't get reviewed. They tend to be challenging articles to review, whether because of their length, their obscure topic, or complexity. As a result, reviewers may tend to avoid them. Perhaps the Media article languished in GAC for so long because of its schizophrenic nature, and because the subject is unfamiliar. I like a challenge, though, and I commend you for the same. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Cool. I've made some comments there. There are a few types of articles / article situations that I avoid reviewing, but I don't hesitate a bit on (and almost relish) complex situations and complex or obscure topics, including ones that I don't know. Although I probably shouldn't, I've avoided a few because they looked certain to fail (i.e. probably couldn't be fixed within a reviewing period). Also ones where the verifiability looked weak but where the sources were all off line......where the review is going to become a research project. North8000 (talk) 16:12, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of Indian poets

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:List of Indian poets. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 22:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I commented there. North8000 (talk) 13:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

PC

"Introduced grammar problem, and also took out "certain" qualifier which IMHO is important". Could you be more specific what is the grammatical problem introduced exactly? I find the present "certain other religions" grammatically confusing and out of place. What is "certain other religions contexts"? And what is the "certain" here? Seems WP:VAGUE compared to my revision. --hydrox (talk) 23:18, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I took a close look and realized that I was in error in my comment about your edit introducing a grammatical error. But I think that "certain" is essential to the definition on those three items, as PC makes distinctions in treatment within each of those three groups. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the pedantry, but "makes distinctions in treatment within each of those three groups"? What do you mean exactly? The current opening of the article is grammatically incorrect, as it confuses the proper grammatical case in the middle of the list. To wit, it currently stands incorrectly: Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in [...] certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies [...] contexts. If you insist on using "certain" here, the items must be in the genitive: Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in [...] certain other religions', beliefs' or ideologies' [...] contexts.

Yet, I still fail to see why you insist on using "certain" here. I see it as a non-essential weasel word, whose purpose remains unclear and that could be just easily dropped. What are these "certain religions' contexts"? Per our opening, political correctness also tries to avoid offense in "occupational, racial and cultural contexts". But why are those not "certain occupational contexts" then? Can you see the problem? --hydrox (talk) 12:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I noted that my grammar comment was wrong, and so I'm not really arguing grammar. It sounds like I could learn a few things from you in that department. But IMO the "certain" qualifier in there is essential. Whether one considers the orthodoxy to be real or putative, the common meaning or practice certainly does not require going to great lengths to avoid offense to all religions, beliefs and ideologies, only certain ones, and indeed goes quite the opposite on others. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Well.. In my book at least political correctness entails sensitivity towards all religions, but I am no expert in the subject. I have now made a revision that I hope to be a compromise. --hydrox (talk) 15:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Your version looked good. Then someone really scrambled it. North8000 (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Tea Party movement Moderated discussion

A discussion is taking place at Talk:Tea Party movement/Moderated discussion to get consensus on finding and addressing the main points of contention on the article, and moving the article to a stable and useful condition. As you are a significant contributor to the article, your involvement in the discussion would be valued and helpful. As the discussion is currently looking at removing a substantial amount of material, it would be appropriate for you to check to see what material is being proposed for removal, in case you have any concerns about this. If you feel you would rather not get involved right now, that is fine; however, if you later decide to get involved and directly edit the article to reverse any consensus decisions, that might be seen as disruptive. Re-opening discussion, however, may be acceptable; though you may find few people willing to re-engage in such a discussion, and if there are repeated attempts to re-open discussion on the same points, that also could be seen as disruptive. The best time to get involved is right now. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion#Taking_stock. Cheers.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:29, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Time to archive?

Your talkpage is difficult to navigate because of the number of threads. Might be worth considering archiving some of the older threads in order to assist fellow users coming to talk with you. If you need assistance, please let me know. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Have to chime in here. I left a message on your talk page yesterday, and at first thought that Wikipedia was experiencing technical problems, but turns out it was because my browser has difficulty handling as lengthy pages as this talk page. Kind regards, hydrox (talk) 11:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to you both. Either way, it's a good reminder that it's time for me to shrink this page and I'm doing so. North8000 (talk) 11:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I reduced it by about 30 items. North8000 (talk) 15:08, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

This page loads still very, very slowly... Do you really need to display inactive conversations older than a few months? --hydrox (talk) 15:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I've not seen it to load slowly, but I'll reduce it more. North8000 (talk) 19:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Salmaan Taseer

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Salmaan Taseer. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 02:15, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 11:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!

~~~ has given you a falafel sandwich! Falafel sandwiches are a specialty of the Middle East. With a little tahini and maybe a spicy sauce, they are delicious and promote WikiLove. Hopefully, this one has added flavor to your day.

Spread the goodness of falafel by adding {{subst:Falafel}} to someone's Talk page with a friendly message! Give a falafel sandwich to someone you've had disagreements with in the past, or to a good friend.

Thanks for taking the time to review this one--it'd been in the queue for quite a while! -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:31, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Very easy to review because it was so well done. Nice work! North8000 (talk) 01:58, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

PC article

The editor posted on my talk page as well as Talk:Political correctness. He doesn't seem to get it. Dougweller (talk) 12:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

An unusual mix. Does not seem to understand Wikipedia or the common meaning of PC. The wording of politeness combined with some tendencies towards arrogance. And an intelligent person. Longer time but sporadic editor. My first guess.....potentially promising editor (if they don't have their ears shut) who is problematic at the moment. Maybe we can help. North8000 (talk) 21:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Gun Control

Hi North. I kind of give up on the Gun Control thing, without prejudice. It's just become kind of a free-for-all with editors talking past one another. I actually would welcome it if there were some simple RS that makes the argument and ties totalitarian regimes' gun control to the broader subject. If it's a valid point, we shouldn't need the controversial sources or questionable uses of them. Meanwhile, it really is like Hitler's mayo. Yes he enjoyed mayonnaise, but that undisputed fact is not a significant fact about either our general body of knowledge about mayonnaise usage nor about Hitler's actions. SPECIFICO talk 19:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Specifico. Thanks for the post. My thoughts are to not "tie" or characterize but just to cover. I know that my discussion on the "mayo" difference was a bit abstract but I believe that there is something sound there. In short, that gun control is really an action rather than an object. So it's like Prohibition, Hazing, War and Exploration rather than mayonnaise. In each case, significant occurrences of the action are inherently examples of the actual subject and I believe germane; no "making" of a connection is needed to make them germane. This applies to mere coverages of the examples....I can see your point with respect to any wording with implies a connection (e.g. with authoritarianism). My post on AzureCitizen's talk page kind of says my real thoughts which are that some changes are needed. When I see specific quotes included (e.g. the holocaust survivors) I go on yellow alert regarding cherry picking, but I would think that that the two quotes were in direct opposition to each other on the topic at hand would tend to assuage or mitigate that concern. What do you think? Thanks again for the post. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you look at the WP mayonnaise article it is partly about the substance but largely about its use and deployment just like gun control. Anyway I know you to be thoughtful but the noise level over at Gun control is just not going to allow the issue to be sorted out just now. SPECIFICO talk 20:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Articles that are on on somewhat fluid topics/fluid realities and where there is a real world contest/clash involved are all painful unstable messes in Wikipedia (unless one side totally "wins" at the article.) And policies/guidelines are misused (against the goal of a quality article) as often as they are used. And anybody who tries to bring one of those to the center is going to get called a lot of bad things and become a target. For those reasons I try to ration myself to being active on/ making a real effort to just one of those at a time. I think that this article is right on the borderline of being one of those sad cases which would put me over my quota. Maybe we could both go there with the thought/agreement that POV's should count zero and article quality is all that matters. North8000 (talk) 21:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Georges Yatridès

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Georges Yatridès. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I did so. North8000 (talk) 16:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Good article reviews

Hi North. Thanks for reviewing the PRSA article! Do you think I could convince you to take a second look at my work at YouSendIt? Someone passed it as GA, but I didn't think it actually met the criteria yet. CorporateM (Talk) 17:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

"Whew! You are pretty tough on yourself by wanting people to be tough on you! I'd be happy to. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe I am too tough on myself as I was thinking of quite a few other areas that could have been improved. Of course, the community is tough on me and it does improve my work when the standards are raised, but it might be annoying for me to go around asking so many editors to provide feedback on an acceptable article.

I have a couple other items I could use your help on, if you're interested, but I don't know what topics you take an interest in. CorporateM (Talk) 13:23, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Happy to. I'm interested in about 90% of everything in the world. And most of the "10%" is the pervasively-covered types of sports.North8000 (talk) 14:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll have to remember then that I can bug you about any topic ;-)

For Publishers Clearing House, I felt it was important we clean our own house before suggesting content, primarily by requesting deletion of an article on one of their PR staff, which I can only presume was COI written and looks like a notability problem. A really obvious deletion IMO and not COI at all except as a matter of cleaning up our act.

The Monster Cable Products article contains a lot of controversies that do exist and are important, but have substantial undue and bias issues. The article gives the appearance of being written for the explicit purpose of making the company look bad. We will have to go through these one-at-a-time and balance them with the other aspects of the company, its products and history, but I've requested deletion of the False Advertising section, which I think might be so undue that it does not belong in the article at all, since its only sources are short blurbs and press releases. CorporateM (Talk) 19:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Political correctness article (3 May 2013)

(Copied by Mhazard9 from their talk page to here) North8000 (talk) 19:11, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Mhazard9, again, please take controversial changes to talk rather than warring them in. I will be forced to report you if you do not stop. Also, your edit summaries do not say what you are doing. North8000 (talk) 13:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear North8000,

Please, be specific and give examples of what you call controversial edits; otherwise, I do not know whereof you speak. Are you speaking for yourself? Are you speaking for Dougweller, your sponsor in this editorial war? Are you for real, dude? It is very telling that, again, like your sponsor, you resort to THREATS, such as “I will be forced to report you if you do not stop”, meaning what? Is someone physically and psychologically compelling you to report me for NOT OBEYING YOU in correcting poor, opinionated writing?

Again, BE SPECIFIC and GIVE EXAMPLES of so-called controversial edits. There is no edit war, I have not read any substantive contribution by you, North8000, other than opinions in an edit summary; in the wrong place, at that.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way, please! You have spent days harassing me with FAKE edit-war nonsense in the edit summaries, rather than in the talk page . . . so, you are incredible. Again, SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of my incorrect and inaccurate, untrue and false edits would help your credibility as an editor PARTICIPATING in the substantive editorial development of the Political Correctness article. Currently, the Introduction communicates the content of the article; likewise the image.

Show some self-respect, laddie, do not lend your voice to another man's quarrel, unless you choose to bleed for him, because he had others do his work for him. Since I was blocked for twenty-four hours, YOU, North8000, have harassed me, with reverts of substantiated work, since your sponsor won A battle; the EDIT HISTORY confirms my veracity in this matter.

My edit summaries are brief, because they are . . . summaries. Read the comparisons, that is to say, do your own work. I cannot do your reading for you.

Best regards,

Mhazard9 (talk) 18:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

You have copied my post and your above comment to many different places; others have pared that back but it is still in at least 2 different places. I'll respond here.

"Controversial edits" are the ones that were reverted with statements indicating that there are contested and an indication to "please take it to talk"

Regarding edit summaries, you have made a immense amount of controversial and contested edits and reverts with no specifics or even hints at what you are doing in your edit summaries. Your edit summaries are roughly variants of "Compositional details; narrative coherence." repeated. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Response:

Dear North8000:

From one Wikipedia Editor to another, I again request, be specific and give examples of my so-called controversial edits to the Political Correctness article; that is: (1) the specific section, or subsection, containing the substantively controversial edit; (2) the specific paragraph, paragraph-line, and the specific sentence. Then, shall we three, you North8000, your sponsor the Administrator Dougweller, and I, the villainous editor Mhazard9, can THEN begin to work out this matter of the controversial edits that so offend thine sensibilities, nostrils, and eyes.

Again, I remind you, editor-to-editor, to not lend your voice to another man's quarrel; you are being used as a punching bag, by an editor who cannot defend his points, because he is on the wrong side of the matter. You betrayed, exposed, and confirmed Dougweller's page-owner hustle when you said to him:

That first sentence could use some improvements, but this environment prevents the mutual work to do that.North8000 (talk) 21:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yet, the Administrator Dougweller deleted this legitimate communication from the PERTINENT page, the Political Correctness Talk Page, where it belongs, because it is about the subject of PC . . . but, "Hey!" you fellows can do anything you want . . . except CHOOSE contribute substantive to the article, CHOOSE to play by the rules you preach to me.

On the level (and by the square), tell me, North800, is this ungrammatical, poorly written, and opinionated first sentence (replaced by the Admin. Douweller) a faithful, true, and accurate representation of the CONTENT of the article Political Correctness?:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

Again, how, is this version CONTROVERSIAL? Where (line and sentence) does it not faithfully, truthfully, and accurately communicate the content of the article it is introducing?:

Political correctness, politically correct, and the abbreviation PC are terms that denote ideas, language, and speech, policies and behavior that purportedly are meant to minimize and eliminate the social offense inherent to stereotypes, in occupational and institutional contexts, by means of excessively formal awareness, tolerance, and respect for the differences in gender and sexual orientation, race and culture, age and disability, religion and ideology of people who are not of the societal mainstream.

This is what I, Mhazard9, am asking you, the editor North8000, to do, when I ask you: Be specific and give examples, just as you did at university in order to earn the grades to earn the degree. Given that you CLAIM, in the edit summaries, that my substantive edits of the text are CONTESTED (somebody said it ain't so), YOU the editor who said so, must demonstrate it so, i.e. the burden of proof is upon the editor contesting the text. Knee-jerk deletion and weasel-word Edit Summary are an obvious form of CENSORSHIP, especially when it occurs more than once, without you proving Dougweller's opinion with EVIDENCE. If you think I am lying, then, otherwise, why is Dougweller involved in a conversation between North8000 and Mhazard9, if he ain't your sponsor in a blunt Edit War over content?

Yet, you have refused to do so, and have simply ordered me to obey your sponsor, Dougweller, and ask permission to participate, BEFORE I can contribute. Gosh, how obvious. That is the reason I have repeatedly recommended that you, North8000, not lend your voice to Dougweller's quarrel with me over the SUBSTANTIVE CONTENT of the Political Correctness article. In communicating to him the FACT that the leading sentence of the Introduction must be re-written to reflect the content it introduces CONFIRMS everything I have said to each of you.

So, be specific, and give examples of incorrect work. Moreover, I prefer to communicate with you at the Political Correctness Talk Page.

Best regards,

Mhazard9 (talk) 16:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

My revision

Hi, North8000. Just a note to let you know that my current revision that you reverted was the one shot I took to alleviate the problem. It cited two dictionary definitions that showed both sides of the equation, corrected the faulty style and grammar of the original entry, and covered all of the salient points. If that is not satisfactory, I do not know will be. I would be more than willing to work with you on it; however, I am currently out of work and do not have the time to devote to the article. Good luck working it out! There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 00:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very very very much for your effort!!! and there is good stuff in there. I think that a dialog might finally be starting at the article. North8000 (talk) 00:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Austrian School

I thought of commenting directly on the talk page about the section title IAW BRD, and then I thought about a comment here. And then I decided not to bother you. But then I noticed you had volunteered as a moderator on the topic. (Perhaps angels don't fear to tread when they are wearing snow shoes. I, on the other hand, have rushed in occasionally!) Issue? Section heading. Before reverting the "contributors" I looked at Keynesian economics (the antithesis of AS). It uses "theory". The "theory" section heading was there 50 edits ago (but I did not look to see if there'd been changes in the last 30 days.) WikiProject Economics does not have a style guide that covers the topic. Nor do any of the FAs or GAs have similar sections, so the issue does not have examples to use as guideposts. So I leave it at that -- would you care to change it back? It's your call. – S. Rich (talk) 04:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello S.Rich,

Thanks for the post. Starting from the "end", I feel the "tenets" is better, and so from a standpoint if intellectual honesty I don't plan to change, but I won't be upset if someone else changes it. My reasoning is as follows:

• Technically, about half of everything that everyone says or claims (and the majority of all science) is a theory, but by common usage of the term, the word "theory" is not applied to them. If the President says "this action I took today will help create jobs" that is technically a theory, but common practice is not to brand it as such. And, in common practice, branding it as such is "lowering" it.
• It seems like a good compromise. Dictionary.com defines "Tenet" as "any opinion, principle, doctrine, dogma, etc., especially one held as true by members of a profession, group, or movement." which seems appropriate.

I feel the "tenets" is better, and so from a standpoint if intellectual honesty I don't plan to change, but I was just trying to help and won't be upset if someone else changes it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Alas, the lack of other quality econ articles or a style exemplar to provide guidance leaves this open for different presentations in different articles. Not a big problem, but I wonder what would happen if "theory" was changed to "tenets" in Keynesian economics. – S. Rich (talk) 14:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Probably makes a little difference in Keynesian because it was self-titled as a theory. Expanding on my previous note, I tend to think that the words here are communicating to readers and should lean towards using their common meanings. For example, in legal circles, an unmarried woman is technically termed a spinster, and the dog breeding circles, a female dog is a bitch. Yet the common meanings / intonations of those words are very different, and so they would tend not to be the nouns used in writing for general readers. But, again, I was just trying to help and would not object if you changed it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello again

You're probably up to your neck in the ArbCom proceedings for TPm. So I'm sure you're busy. But there are a couple of things I'd like to talk about if you have a minute.

(A) Clearly you find the current condition of the main TPm article annoying, and I share that concern. Take a good look at my last post on the moderated discussion page. I suggest you create a sandbox page here from your User Talk page, copy and paste the whole article from the "View Source" tab to your sandbox, and fire up the chainsaw. There are entire sections of that article that are packed with what I describe as "Daily Kos cruft," clearly written by people trying to smear the Tea Party rather than write a quality NPOV article for Wikipedia, and they can be reduced to one paragraph with 6-8 reflinks. The gas grille, the twitter tweet, the jokes in bad taste, the racially insensitive signs at rallies, all of it. Pardon my French but it's bullshit. Boil all that down to a summary overview wherever possible, link it on the moderated discussion page, and ask for a vote. Don't take this as a rubber stamp, but I would probably support whatever you do after a quick review.

(B) For the benefit of any lurkers and stalkers, this is not a quid pro quo. I am not offering my support for "A" in return for your support for "B." But I'm surprised by your shift from "Support" to "Neutral" on the Ugg boots TM RfC, and I would ask you to reconsider. Just look at your "Support vote" that I transcluded (copied) for the first RfC and compare it to your latest "Neutral vote." Compare the reasoning you used. Why did you change your mind? Also, look at what Liangshan Yi has been pointing out at the bottom of the page. There is very good reason to suspect that it's an organized campaign to smear Deckers, either on behalf of Australian manufacturers (COI) or as an act of Australian national pride (cultural bias) or perhaps some mixture of both, and that it's been going on for years. NPOV and our commitment to avoid cultural bias compel us to prevent one dispute, in one country, from being elevated above the rest in this way. Granted, it should be the main event in the article; but counterfeiting should be covered as well, since countries like China see counterfeiting as "THE" Ugg boots trademark dispute. regards .... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:22, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Both the state of the TPM article and what ensued from an attempt to fix it show how badly the Wikipedia system which usually works can be misused. The worst of it was actually BEFORE arbcom, reaching its lowest point at the mob-violence, less civilized-then-Somalia-at-its-lowest point ANI. I strongly advocated Arbcom taking the case to end that ridiculousness. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for the idea and support for it, but I think that it's wp:snow for a version of the TPM fixed up by me would go anywhere.

On the last point, I think that I've been near-neutral on that all along. This first time I think I gave the same two (conflicting reasons) and sort of thought "it's no big deal either way, might as well put them in this article. So as I see it I went from "near neutral" to "neutral", not much of a change. I honestly don't see what is "at stake" or why anybody cares strongly either way. If I could see something that is really at stake, I would probably have a stronger opinion. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Georges Yatrides

I confirm that my name 'Yatrides' as User is a single identity on Wikipedia. I do not represent any group or organization neither for a website and depends on no one. All that is written on Wikipedia comes from third party sources (articles of newspapers and magazines, Academic studies, TV information and broadcasts, movies). Georges Yatrides

--Yatrides (talk) 15:31, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! My suggestion there was more limited than that. As I indicated, I'm ready to help there if folks want. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:37, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Surreal Barnstar
	In admiration for your thoughtful and sometimes forceful contributions to Wikipedia, from a kindred spirit of the view that civility is at times tenanciousness. Market St.⧏ ⧐ Diamond Way 08:31, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Sometimes I have to resist the temptation to just take the easy way and keep my head low. Moments like this remind me that it's worth trying. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of vegetarians

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:List of vegetarians. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 14:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 16:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

COI Stuff

Hi North. I'm researching the products, trademark and reception/performance topics for Monster and will circle back on those in a bit.

In response to your post on YouSendIt, I wrote a quick, proposed draft for expanding the lead and was wondering if you were willing to throw it in or give me a {{request edit|G}} I think at that point I'm gonna call that article done-and-done. I'll circle back every 6-12 months or so for updates.

If you want to help on other articles, I have an endless queue of edit requests that I'm usually pestering editors about ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 22:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Happy to help on this (I lean towards editing myself, but either way is fine....which do you prefer if it looks OK?) and others. We'll just try it and see / take it as it comes. If you're working me too hard or if I'm being too rough on you we'll just let each other know.  :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

With my PR cap on, I feel it's my duty to collaborate in the way preferred by the individual editor, much like traditional PRs track the communication preferences of each journalist. As a volunteer I do a little bit of everything depending on the circumstance.

I have another one over at Viralheat here if you care to take a look. I knowingly added incorrect pricing information the first time, because it was the most updated available in secondary sources at the time, so we're doing a quick round of updates. It's a social media management service known largely for its low cost. CorporateM (Talk) 15:49, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

RFC/U on user:Arzel

You took part in a discussion that dealt with user:Arzel, which took place here. Based on that discussion, I started a WP:RFC/U, here.Casprings (talk) 02:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I've arbitrarily reworded this clause that you (and several others) found problematic.   — C M B J   23:37, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of vegans

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:List of vegans. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 15:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Did so. North8000 (talk) 16:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Moderated Discussion at Tea Party movement

Let me say from the beginning that this is not canvassing. This is an attempt, with the best of intentions for Wikipedia, to resolve a problem.

• so I must ask that Xeonphrenic be banned from this page ... -- Arthur Rubin
• I recommended that at ArbCom, but I'm not sure they'll do anything; unfortunately the Moderated Discussion page and the article's main Talk page are not appropriate places for such a discussion. The gentleman has been engaged in this behavior on several articles related to U.S. politics for several years. It's completely unacceptable. So I recommended, and I'm again recommending, a topic ban on all articles related to U.S. politics, broadly construed.
• You've indicated several times that you would oppose this resolution. I notice that you were willing to change your mind at Ugg boots trademark disputes and I suggest that you should do so here. You have also repeatedly lamented the sorry, sad condition of the Tea Party movement article. There is one person who is principally responsible for the sorry, sad condition of that article. This is the solution to that problem. Please don't try to prevent this solution.
• I recommend RFC/U as they did with Arzel. Allegedly ANI is also an appropriate forum to begin with, but that has every likelihood of turning into a bloodbath. We need to go to RFC/U first to establish tone, numbers, and the body of evidence. You and Malke could certify the RFC/U, we could discuss it, and then (if consensus suggests it) we could move to ANI and "vote" on a community ban. In an RFC/U followed by ANI, we do not need to rely on ArbCom to make the decision. We're the ones who have had to deal with this behavior on a daily basis, so we're the ones who are in the best position to see the problem and the solution with the greatest clarity. We'd need to bring SilkTork into it to ensure no one challenges its legitimacy.
• This should be done with the caveat that Xeno should have the option of asking for a removal of the topic ban, after a substantial period (six months to a year) of productive work on other articles. I'd like to believe that almost anyone can be rehabilitated, and he does have the potential to be a productive editor. And it is altogether possible that during the course of all these discussions, Xeno may accept that his behavior is unacceptable, and change his behavior without a topic ban at all. I would welcome that resolution if it is possible. Malke also suggested a mentor if he is to be rehabilitated. I am placing similar messages on Arthur and Malke's pages. kind regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

A couple of random thoughts:

• ANI's on vague behavioral topics almost always turn into mob-violence situations where people can deceive/misrepresent (=lie) with immunity.
• I made the "would oppose" statement with respect to the Arbcom case.
• Again I considered my shift at the Ugg article to be microscopic (from near neutral to neutral) but I'm also open to big changes in my opinion, but not changes to word I've given. My word was about the arbcom case.
• I'd rather just lean on them to reduce the behavior. But that's how that last debacle started, snowballed by wrong things. So just "leaning" on someone is considered by many to be not OK, but mis-using the wiki-systems to wage vicious warfare to try to get real harm done to people can be done with immunity. So that presents quite a quandary.
• I'm a softie. If someone is nice about it, (vs. the wiki-savvy viciousness that is all too common) I tend to not get too angry about even the most superchamp POV'ers.
• Maybe a friendly RFC/U?

Overall, I dunno. North8000 (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Let me show you what it's like when one productive editor is allowed to proceed without being hassled. This is the article on the Soviet T-34 tank from WWII: [12] [13] Today marks the two month anniversary of my arrival at that article. Look at the difference. It used to be a Featured Article but was de-listed, after a bunch of people who thought they knew what they were doing started adding unsourced, poorly sourced, and biased content. Believe it or not, the T-34 has fanboys who think it was just the most totally awesome thing that ever happened to the word "tank." (It did make an enormous impact but it also had a lot of weaknesses, and the Germans quickly discovered and exploited them.) DMorpheus is an experienced editor. He's been working on the article a long time and he does great work but the fanboys overwhelmed him. When I showed up, he chatted with me a little bit on the article Talk page but other than that, he pretty much let me fire up the chainsaw and let it rip.

I took a little break from the article in the second half of April because I was busy with TPm, Ugg boots, and real life (believe it or not, I do have a real life). Kyteto showed up and "citation bombed" the whole article. So when I came back, I redoubled my efforts, found all the sources he wanted, cited them, made almost all the other citations follow a consistent style (still working on that but almost done), added three tables to show relative tank strengths of German and Soviet forces at various stages of the war, wrote up a new section on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, added a few more bits here and there, and hey ... it's almost ready to be a Featured Article candidate again.

When I'm not being hassled, obstructed, and tripped up at every turn, I can get a lot of work done in a fairly short span of time and it's good work. If they're not going to really help, I do wish certain individuals would just follow the example of DMorpheus and stay the hell out of the way. We can't "lean on them." As you can see, that always blows up in your face. Our only option is to use the tools that have been given to us, and follow the painfully slow, grinding Wiki-systems to their conclusion. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

You are probably right; I just haven't admitted it yet. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Here is an RfC/U regarding the behavior of Xenophrenic: [14] Please participate and provide diffs of your efforts to resolve these disputes with Xenophrenic, as well as any diffs of what you may consider to be his problematic behavior. kind regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Oy vey

I notice, with suddenly piqued interest, your first post on the Talk page of said RfC/U:

• What would you want......a list of their last 1,000 edits, and notes showing that 90% are relentlessly towards tilting articles towards one particular end of the political spectrum? Would Xenophrenic want someone to make that effort? Yes, evidently that's what he and the peculiar IP editor who geolocates to Bucharest, Romania (and who edits at times most Bucharest residents are sound asleep) are insisting upon.

• My own hope is just saying enough here to convince Xenophrenic to change a bit, NOT enough to get them in trouble. Unless someone forces the latter by declaring that any input without the latter is illegitimate. Xenophrenic and said IP editor have indeed declared it. Therefore the latter has been forced. See the main RfC/U page, where I have compiled a whole bunch of diffs from Xeno's non-TPm editing from April 1 to today (55 days). The finding at ANI that there wasn't enough evidence for a topic ban on Xeno is irrelevant, since it was over with on February 26, and it was strictly limited to TPm related edits. So now "enough to get them in trouble" is being said. What's your reaction? I'm very tired and I'm going to bed. kind regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 05:14, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Content discussion, resumed

The discussion in the "Content discussion, resumed" section got out of hand, so I have closed it. A number of contributors to that discussion wandered away from commenting on the content into commenting on the contributor. I would ask that everyone make a special effort to word what they say carefully.

At this point it might be better if anyone has concerns about the behaviour of anyone else in the discussion, that they bring those concerns direct to me rather than raise them on the discussion page. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, my only real concern is Xenophrenic retroactively re-writing a post that I had already responded to, making my response appear off target. I would like that remedied. North8000 (talk) 12:32, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

North, I've edited that discussion to remedy it; please let me know if you still have concerns. I sometimes forget when conversing with an editor that it is not a private conversation, and I see how my addition of text could cause confusion in a reader of your subsequent response. Please accept my apology.

An unrelated observation: See that little note SilkTork left for you at the top of this section about the "Content discussion, resumed" thread? He even-handedly left that same note on the Talk page of every editor to participate in that thread. There is, however, one notable exception. On every other editor's Talk page, he also inserted an example quote from that editor that he found problematic, to illustrate his point. Every editor except you, that is. I don't want to read anything into SilkTork's messages that isn't there, but I think the lack of sample problematic text in his message to you speaks positively about your role in that discussion. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks and thanks! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

File:CarrieNewcomer.jpg

Hi. When you uploaded File:CarrieNewcomer.jpg some time ago, you indicated that you had obtained permission from the copyright holder. Some time later, another user tagged it as {{OTRS pending}}. Upon searching the permissions queue, I could not find a relevant letter of permission for this image. Could you please forward (or re-forward if you have already done so) the letter of permission from the copyright holder to permission-en@wikimedia.org? Please note that if the person claiming to be the copyright holder is someone other than the photographer, we would also ask that the letter include an explanation of how that person became the copyright holder (e.g. the copyright was purchased or the photographer was an employee and the photo is a work product). Thank you. --B (talk) 13:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll go to work on that. Somebody circled back and asked me a question and and answered and though it was all settled. I didn't notice that it got tagged and nobody notified me. I obtained permission from the owner for the described license, but will need to get them to write Wikipedia as I only have the written communications between them and myself. North8000 (talk) 13:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I just realized that the "there's a problem" tag was just put up a few minutes before you posted above. That's why I hadn't seen it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Just a note, I've removed the "Summer 1974" date from the image. Obviously, the image was taken in 2009.[15] I suspect that you were using the template from another image. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 10:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't know how I screwed that up. North8000 (talk) 11:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, it made me spot another error which I fixed. North8000 (talk) 11:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Alger Hiss

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Alger Hiss. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 20:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Did so. North8000 (talk) 20:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Love history & culture? Get involved in WikiProject World Digital Library!

World Digital Library Wikipedia Partnership - We need you!

Hi North8000! I'm the Wikipedian In Residence at the World Digital Library, a project of the Library of Congress and UNESCO. I'm recruiting Wikipedians who are passionate about history & culture to participate in improving Wikipedia using the WDL's vast free online resources. Participants can earn our awesome WDL barnstar and help to disseminate free knowledge from over 100 libraries in 7 different languages. Please sign up to participate here. Thanks for editing Wikipedia and I look forward to working with you! SarahStierch (talk) 20:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Barnstar for you

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	Hi, Thanks a lot for taking up and completing the review of Thanjavur. The comments were helpful and i would take them as input for my other articles as well. Ssriram mt (talk) 03:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!. What an excellent job you have done! North8000 (talk) 10:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks

Many thanks for giving Uncle David its GA review! I was beginning to fear that it would languish on the waiting list forever due to its subject matter. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Happy to do it. It was a first for me.  :-) A part of the fun of GA reviewing articles. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:42, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard discussion on WP:RFC/U on user:Xenophrenic

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. THe Link is here.

WikiProject Good articles: Recruitment Center (Update #1)

Hello! Now that the recent Request for Comment has been closed, it is time to implement all the proposals that received support. Among those proposals was to conduct a "Recruiter Drive". However, instead of holding a "drive" WikiProject Good articles will be opening a "Recruitment Center". The current task at hand is to develop a system that everyone agrees on in which can be followed when recruiting a potential reviewer. A draft of a possible system can be found here. I (Dom497) am asking you to review this system and leave feedback on the talk page of "Recruiter Central". The current system can always be changed so feedback is important. As of right now, the current goal is to launch a 2 month trial run (beginning in late June/early July) to see if the Recruitment Center will even work. This message has only been sent to the users who supported the proposal on the RfC page as these are the beginning stages of this "project". Updates will be sent out when needed.--EdwardsBot (talk) 20:50, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

This newsletter was delivered by EdwardsBot (talk) 20:50, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Deaths in 2013

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Deaths in 2013. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 21:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Kane

I was wondering how long Kane would remain in the infobox. Please don't cane me for not removing him earlier. – S. Rich (talk) 19:34, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, an influential philosopher from the full body slam strand of libertarianism. :-) North8000 (talk) 20:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

LOL. And I'd prefer a slam from Kane over those I seen from some of the WP editors out there. (no reply expected) – S. Rich (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement suspended

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that the Tea Party Movement case be suspended until the end of June 2013 to allow time for the Tea Party movement/Moderated discussion. Pages relating to the Tea Party movement, in any namespace, broadly construed, are placed under discretionary sanctions until further notice. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:01, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Bruce Lee

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Bruce Lee. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I did so. North8000 (talk) 10:51, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I got the same request and did as well. Some of the debate seemed almost laughable, but I guess everyone has their passions... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Hello there

I'd like to talk with you about the Xenophrenic RfC/U, if you have a moment and you're online. regards .... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but not exactly sure what you mean. North8000 (talk) 13:14, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

It's not going anywhere. Xenophrenic isn't admitting that his behavior is a problem, and he has attracted a team of "defense attorneys." I'm afraid that I have no alternative but to take it to WP:ANI. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment of the situation there. But IMO AN and ani's on "general behavior" topics are usually random insanity. IMO more time and work on evidence and objective analysis at the RFC/U would help assure correctness. I just noticed that Xenophrenic answered my inquiry and I'm prepared to do more work and analysis. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Good Articles Recruitment Centre

Hello! Now, some of you might be wondering why there is a Good article icon with a bunch of stars around (to the right). The answer? WikiProject Good articles will be launching a Recruitment Centre very soon! The centre will allow all users to be taught how to review Good article nominations by experts just like you! However, in order for the Recruitment Centre to open in the first place, we need some volunteers: Recruiters: The main task of a recruiter is to teach users that have never reviewed a Good article nomination how to review one. To become a recruiter, all you have to do is meet this criteria. If we don't get at least 5-10 recruiters to start off with, the Recruitment Centre will not open. If interested, make sure you meet the criteria, read the process and add your name to the list of recruiters. (One of the great things about being a recruiter is that there is no set requirement of what must be taught and when. Instead, all the content found in the process section is a guideline of the main points that should be addressed during a recruitment session...you can also take an entire different approach if you wish!) If you think you will not have the time to recruit any users at this time but are still interested in becoming a recruiter, you can still add your name to the list of recruiters but just fill in the "Status" parameter with "Not Available". Co-Director: The current Director for the centre is me (Dom497). Another user that would be willing to help with some of the tasks would be helpful. Tasks include making sure recruiters are doing what they should be (teaching!), making sure all recruitments are archived correctly, updating pages as needed, answering any questions, and distributing the feedback form. If interested, please contact me (Dom497). Nominators, please read this: If you are not interested in becoming a recruiter, you can still help. In some cases a nominator may have an issue with an "inexperienced" editor (the recruitee) reviewing one of their nominations. To minimize the chances of this happening, if you are fine with a recruitee reviewing one of your nominations under the supervision of the recruiter, please add your name to the list at the bottom of this page. By adding your name to this list, chances are that your nomination will be reviewed more quickly as the recruitee will be asked to choose a nomination from the list of nominators that are OK with them reviewing the article. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me. I look forward to seeing this program bring new reviewers to the Good article community and all the positive things it will bring along. A message will be sent out to all recruiters regarding the date when the Recruitment Centre will open when it is determined. The message will also contain some further details to clarify things that may be a bit confusing.--Dom497 (talk) This message was sent out by --EdwardsBot (talk) 01:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Publishers Clearing House

Hi North. I've been poking around for a couple editors that want to get involved here. SmartSE said he was busy in real-life and Drmies said he didn't know enough about the subject. At the very least it would help to have an experienced impartial editor explain secondary sources regarding the use of press releases. However, it is a large body of work (10050-cites) and a neutral article in this case contains a substantial amount of controversial material, so I understand how it may be intimidating. Happy to go through it one section at a time if it's easier.

Let me know if you're up for it. Appreciate your time as always. CorporateM (Talk) 19:33, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy to blaze through any areas that you wish. Including a blaze through article or talk to give thoughts. Something that gets huge I'm not sure that I'm up for. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I'll wait a day or two and then start breaking it off into more digestible bits. CorporateM (Talk) 02:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

How's this? CorporateM (Talk) 03:09, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi North. I figured I would post here, since we were getting off-topic, but it is worth discussing.

I've adopted the phrase "permission-based" in that I am comfortable making edits that are given a green-light by a disinterested editor that serves the reader's best-interest. I often ask for a {{request edit|G}} to serve this purpose, as the template gives explicit permission to move forward. This also adds the accountability/ownership of the edits to the PR person, which editors want, while leaving editorial decisions in the right hands.

However, I thought it odd that an editor praised me recently for "putting Wikipedia's interests first" as this would be unethical for me to do. It is unethical for any PR person to put Wikipedia's interests before those of their employer, because this is a conflict of interest. Additionally, a PR person is a "corporate representative" in that for the most part our actions are approved by the corporate bureaucracy and we do not have individual autonomy to make our own choices.

However, you brought up the "situation" which is important. I am very choosy about which clients I accept and every client signs our Statement of Ethics, which forbids intentionally violating policy or hiding information.

It is impractical to expect any company - or the PR people that represent them - to put Wikipedia's interests before their own. But I am able to persuade organizations that it is in their best-interest to just do what Wikipedia wants. Like a lawyer that represents their client exclusively, but is required to disclose evidence to the court and will recommend to their clients they reach an immediate and fair settlement the judge (volunteers) will accept.

There is also the legal issue to consider. However, I believe there will never be consensus and every editor (COI and volunteer) will do things a bit differently. We know dubious editing when we see it. CorporateM (Talk) 15:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that good info. Obviously a complex topic. Structurally, there is some common ground that fulfills both "Wikipedia first" and "client first"; basically all areas where the two do not conflict and thus where the "who's first? question is moot. But there will inevitably be areas where they conflict. I was just giving my thoughts regarding what you mentioned. Let me know if I can help. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

You bet! Thanks for chiming in. Yah, those edits are pretty obvious anyway. If you want to watchlist it, I'll go through the article bit-by-bit. CorporateM (Talk) 16:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey North. I haven't heard from Bilbo on the proposed Online Development section and he's usually pretty responsive (commented on the Revenue issue recently). I went ahead and pinged him directly on his Talk page. If there are no other comments, do you think we could add the new section this weekend? (a week after it was first posted) I'm happy to do some cleanup after the merge. Figure it should be a pretty non-controversial improvement. CorporateM (Talk) 14:20, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Just took my first glance at it. It's kind of obscure on the talk page so good thing you pinged Bilbo. Happy to have a loook, and also to put it in if I'm comfortable wwith that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Yup, I also archived some stuff so it's easier to see the current items and added the Request Edit template to give it a nice big flag. I have found it frustrating when COIs insist I do something right this second (within hours even), so I try to find the right balance of keeping things moving without being pushy/demanding. The article is currently in pretty awful shape and we have a lot of ground to cover. Also, it will be reviewed more thoroughly by a GA reviewer at some point anyway and I'm just happy to do some triage. CorporateM (Talk) 14:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, North8000. You have new messages at Dom497's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Thanks. Happy to. North8000 (talk) 01:11, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Xenophrenic's RFC/U

North, as I asked you 2 times by now (maybe you missed my fist inquire since I made it where you mentioned my handle and it was in the middle of the thread?) where I made an insult that you've, by your own words, responded to with your controversial math of Xenophrenics edits?
I'd be much appreciated to get an answer to that alleged insult so I can check on b/c if there is no insult, I would have to ask you to strike (and clarify?) that insult you made to me for that matter.TMCk (talk) 02:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Also add "erroneous". It was "That ridiculous math is idiotic and not even the slightest scientific.". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Umh. So you responded to a post I made after and in response to your flawed math comment??? Did I miss something or are you really serious about that???TMCk (talk) 02:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Are you some sort of time traveler?TMCk (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

You're not making any sense regarding the sequence of events and false assertion that "time travel" is required....it's all very simple and in the thread. After you made the above swipe I said in response: "Statistics 101: Knowing only what you know so far, if there were "Z" instances in a 1 week sampler, what is your best guess at the number for 174 weeks? Answer: Z x 174. Low degree of accuracy-reliability due to an only 1 week sample with unestablished representativeness, which is why I emphasized "rough" many times."

After that others were trying to set up a straw man that the contents of the above comment was a cornerstone of the evidence. I said that it was only a response to your insult, and not even in the evidence.

I'm not getting pulled into engaging further on this. North8000 (talk) 02:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

No Mr.(?). You stated:
"I said at the very beginning that it would be for a very very rough idea.....that all of that material is just 1 of the 176 weeks at the one article; emphasizing that the the other 175 weeks are not included. The math point on this talk page was only to refute the insult made by TMCK, it is not even a part of the evidence presentation. North8000 (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)"
So the facts speak clearly against you and since your math was indeed more than just flawed, I suggest striking some of your comments over there, especially where you accuse me of an "insult" without clarifying that it was against your flawed math which by now is not only my own opinion (and math) but refuted bigtime.TMCk (talk) 03:42, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not getting pulled into engaging further on this, even by mis-statements. North8000 (talk) 11:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Carrie Newcomer Kindred Spirits.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Carrie Newcomer Kindred Spirits.jpg. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.

To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 03:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use File:Carrie Newcomer Kindred Spirits.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Carrie Newcomer Kindred Spirits.jpg. I noticed the description page specifies that this media item is being used under a claim of fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails the first non-free content criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed media item could be found or created that provides substantially the same information or which could be adequately covered with text alone. If you believe this media item is not replaceable, please:

1. Go to the file description page and edit it to add {{di-replaceable fair use disputed}}, without deleting the original replaceable fair use template.
2. On the file discussion page, write the reason why this media item is not replaceable at all.

Alternatively, you can also choose to replace this non-free media item by finding freely licensed media of the same subject, requesting that the copyright holder release this (or similar) media under a free license, or by creating new media yourself (for example, by taking your own photograph of the subject).

If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified how these media fully satisfy our non-free content criteria. You can find a list of description pages you have edited by clicking on this link. Note that even if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, non-free media which could be replaced by freely licensed alternatives will be deleted 2 days after this notification (7 days if uploaded before 13 July 2006), per the non-free content policy. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Eeekster (talk) 03:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

This was already done but only in the article-specific use rationale. It appears that is is to also be on the image page itself? Done. North8000 (talk) 17:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Sega Genesis

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Sega Genesis. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 11:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Good Articles Recruitment Centre

Hello! Now, some of you might have already received a similar message a little while ago regarding the Recruitment Centre, so if you have, there is no need to read the rest of this. This message is directed to users who have reviewed over 15 Good article nominations and are not part of WikiProject Good articles (the first message I sent out went to only WikiProject members). So for those who haven't heard about the Recruitment Centre yet, you may be wondering why there is a Good article icon with a bunch of stars around it (to the right). The answer? WikiProject Good articles will be launching a Recruitment Centre very soon! The centre will allow all users to be taught how to review Good article nominations by experts just like you! However, in order for the Recruitment Centre to open in the first place, we need some volunteers: Recruiters: The main task of a recruiter is to teach users that have never reviewed a Good article nomination how to review one. To become a recruiter, all you have to do is meet this criteria. If we don't get at least 5-10 recruiters to start off with (at the time this message was sent out, 2 recruiters have volunteered), the Recruitment Centre will not open. If interested, make sure you meet the criteria, read the process and add your name to the list of recruiters. (One of the great things about being a recruiter is that there is no set requirement of what must be taught and when. Instead, all the content found in the process section is a guideline of the main points that should be addressed during a recruitment session...you can also take an entire different approach if you wish!) If you think you will not have the time to recruit any users at this time but are still interested in becoming a recruiter, you can still add your name to the list of recruiters but just fill in the "Status" parameter with "Not Available". Co-Director: The current Director for the centre is me (Dom497). Another user that would be willing to help with some of the tasks would be helpful. Tasks include making sure recruiters are doing what they should be (teaching!), making sure all recruitments are archived correctly, updating pages as needed, answering any questions, and distributing the feedback form. If interested, please contact me (Dom497). Nominators, please read this: If you are not interested in becoming a recruiter, you can still help. In some cases a nominator may have an issue with an "inexperienced" editor (the recruitee) reviewing one of their nominations. To minimize the chances of this happening, if you are fine with a recruitee reviewing one of your nominations under the supervision of the recruiter, please add your name to the list at the bottom of this page. By adding your name to this list, chances are that your nomination will be reviewed more quickly as the recruitee will be asked to choose a nomination from the list of nominators that are OK with them reviewing the article. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me. I look forward to seeing this program bring new reviewers to the Good article community and all the positive things it will bring along. A message will be sent out to all recruiters regarding the date when the Recruitment Centre will open when it is determined. The message will also contain some further details to clarify things that may be a bit confusing.--Dom497 (talk) This message was sent out by --EdwardsBot (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Frédéric Fontang

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Frédéric Fontang. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 22:15, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Publishers Clearing House

Hi North. I went ahead and started an RFC on the issue of which source to use for revenue in the Infobox here. Bilbo agrees with the employee count, so this is the last dispute-area for the infobox. CorporateM (Talk) 02:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Happy to. I'd call that a "trying to decide" area rather than a dispute-area. North8000 (talk) 09:39, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Hello

I have to admire your determination to continue working on that article, but we have effectively become second-class citizens. We've been working diligently to improve the article for months, in your case years; we've participated with enormous patience in the moderated discussion for three f@cking months, despite all the bullshit; and because we participated in the moderated discussion, we can't edit the article. Meanwhile, anybody with an axe to grind can just show up and change the lede f@cking sentence of the article to "The Tea Party movement is an American political movement that advocates strict adherence to its own view of the United States Constitution," without any discussion on the Talk page or any other page — he just drove by, rolled down the window and did it — and there it stays without being reverted, and the drive-by editor faces no repercussions whatsoever. SMH Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 23:23, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Good points. I think that there are some obvious flaws in the approach and decisions. And to some extent the new battle area has been to try to cleverly work SilkTork on their talk page. But overall I think that SilkTork's efforts have been a plus despite that. The article was previously held in a junk state for years and now there has been progress. :A better plan would be:

• Keep it locked for another 1-2 months and keep the active rework going on during that
• After that strictly follow and require following BRD, plus going straight to "D" if it is obviously controversial.

North8000 (talk) 12:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Regarding your comments at Gun control

This comment has three problems. First, per WP:NPA, you should comment on content, not on contributors. Second, it is an example of the appeal to hypocrisy, a type of ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Third, you are defending your flagrant violation[16] of Wikipedia's non-negotiable neutral point of view policy. Opinions should be in the opinion section, not in the history section. This includes opinions about history and versions of history developed by those with a well-documented flagrant pro-gun ideological commitment like Stephen Halbrook. You may retract your personal attack, or I will hat it for you. — goethean 14:39, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not a personal attack by any stretch of the imagination. I was pointing out that arguments that you have previously used are in opposition to what you are trying to exclude now. And you are completely mischaracterizing my reverting of your edit which was controversial and on an item being discussed. And I advocated moving opinions to an opinion section, and keeping the basic facts in the history section. So you either missed both times that I wrote that, or deliberated mis-stated my position in your post here. North8000 (talk) 14:57, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

We are talking about the Gun control article. Content about Nazis are not "basic facts" about the history of gun control; it is a highly contentious argument about gun control created by someone with a well-documented history of anti-gun control activism. Your placement[17] of these highly contentious factoids, arguments and opinions in the history section is a clear violation of Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. — goethean 15:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

See previous post. Continuing to call my reversion of your problematic edit "placing" is misleading at best. North8000 (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The Nazi content was moved to "History" from "Arguments" in March by ROG5728. The article has been the subject of edit wars ever since ROG5728's highly contentious and policy-defying edit. Undoing ROG's edit is not problematic or contentious, it restores the semblance of NPOV to the article. — goethean 17:13, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Well then lets just split it. Put the history items in history and the arguments in arguments. That's what I've been proposing. You have been contending that merely covering history is POV, blockading that idea while editing the article remove everything (including history) from history. North8000 (talk) 17:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC) North8000 (talk) 17:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

How I wish that you would stop ignoring my comments. A partisan, political activist version of history is not "history". What if I came up with a history book which shows how opposition to gun control was masterminded by anti-Semites from the John Birch Society? Would you agree to put that material in the history section? Of course you wouldn't, because partisan versions of history are not history — they are arguments. No matter how much I jump up and down screaming "Historical facts are history!!!" as you and Gaijin are doing, it's not history. Calling the Third Reich an example of gun control is not a neutral retelling of history and doesn't occur in history book which are not written by political activists. It belongs in Opinions, which is where it was before ROG5728 moved everything around in March. His re-organization of the article violated NPOV and needs to be undone. Your reversion of my edit violated Wikipedia's NPOV policy. — goethean 17:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You are conflating and / or alternating between two different things. In the beginning you seem to be contesting the wording.......I wasn't even getting into that, but of course that could be worked on. But later you seem to be saying that any coverage of Nazi gun control in "history" is a POV, and I do not agree with you on that. North8000 (talk) 17:52, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Any coverage of fringe, NRA-inspired political talking points in the history section violates NPOV. Treating the Third Reich as a significant episode in the history of gun control is fringe. The article's history section currently has 434 words on Australia, 341 words on US, 86 words on Bolshevik Russia (i.e., more NRA propaganda), and 582 words (40%) on 1930s Nazi Germany. This is an appalling violation of WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV. — goethean 18:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

This isn't a conversation, you are just firing volleys / walls of words/links and conflating topics, preventing any real discussion on any one of them. A few items in there would certainly be good to discuss. North8000 (talk) 19:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your inability to defend your indefensible edits. — goethean 19:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Gentlemen, you seem to be all worked up over this. Why not just divide the Nazi stuff along the lines of the rest of the article. Put the simple historical facts in HISTORY and put the analysis and opinion in OPINION. Also make sure the other history sections are factual, with opinion moved down to that section. Wouldn't that make it easier to sort this out? SPECIFICO talk 23:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good; that is what I suggested. North8000 (talk) 23:54, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Make it so, Mr. Sulu. SPECIFICO talk 00:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I am in absolute agreement regarding opinions as to the importance/implications of those facts (particularly how it applies or not to modern gun control) - However, some of the opinion (mainly harcourt currently) My interpretation is that is being used to try and dispute the facts themselves (IE, for a while it said "Harcourt says gun control did not happen at all" ). And moving that stuff out into the opinions may be problematic. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:44, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, either way, I just split it. We'll see what happens next. North8000 (talk) 13:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Publishers Clearing House

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Publishers Clearing House. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 22:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Publishers Clearing House Early History

Hi North. Wondering if we could get your input here? CorporateM (Talk) 23:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Another place that could use your input here. Please let me know if I am ever pestering you too much or becoming a burden  ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 12:39, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Happy to do it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey North. If I haven't worn out my welcome yet (seriously tell me when I have) you're also welcome to contribute if you choose on Yelp, Inc. here.

I felt I may have had a subtle bias on a high profile controversy and since Kiethbob prefers to author content independently, he would be a good one to ask to participate, since anything authored by me may lead to accusations of slanting and cherry-picking.

However, there are a few areas of his editing I contested, such as the use of a Forbes blog as a source and creating a dedicated controversy section. Could use a quick third opinion. CorporateM (Talk) 22:39, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey North. If you're comfortable with it, I was hoping you would consider my Request Edit here for the Sweepstakes section if no additional objections are raised this weekend (or early next week if you like). I think Bilbo and I have worked through any objections and I pinged him as well to see if he had additional comments. CorporateM (Talk) 15:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll take a peek.North8000 (talk) 18:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I know you are probably pretty worn out on the Publishers Clearing House article, but there is another issue here you may be interested in contributing to. I would understand if you need a break. CorporateM (Talk) 02:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Happy to. Nah, I don't get worn out. FYI what works for me is just that I don't feel any obligation / responsibility, and ideally not on a time table. Then it will continue to be fun as it is. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Awesome. Then I will continue to pester you, but I will be patient while doing so ;-)

Bilbo and I have reached agreement on a Lead for the article, which I've submitted a Request Edit for here if you care to take a look. I pinged Ed a couple days ago, who has done some of the other Request Edits, but he's probably just busy IRL. I have another one to submit shortly afterwards regarding some edits we've agreed on for the Prize Patrol section to decrease promotionalism and improve sourcing, but I think it's easier to do them one-at-a-time. CorporateM (Talk) 15:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks North. I took care of the redundancy, though some more duplicate content has been added with the NYT quote being used twice (oh well). I've got this Request Edit in the queue as well, which I may just make myself, it being counter-COI and Bilbo already having approved it informally. I think with a few more things, I should be able to have it ready for a GAN. CorporateM (Talk) 00:49, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Cool. An interesting aspect: I saw your edit as being neutral / fine from a coi standpoint, yet some items from the old lead as being the type of thing that a typical reader would want to see but which a risk-of-coi editor would not be seeking to present (but also not seeking to avoid). That was my general thought when seeking to retain some of the previous material. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Heh, ok. Usually I re-write content from scratch, then compare it to the current to make sure I'm keeping everything of value, but sometimes it can be six-nine months between when I first wrote it and when it actually gets implemented, the article can change a lot and I can make mistakes like any other editor. I wouldn't read so much into it or make assumptions that COI is in any way related. I literally wrote the draft article over a couple days, showed it to PCH, they said "we may not like it, but it's fair" then got the green light a month or two later. But then it's not always that way - sometimes there's a lot of pressure from various departments and it shows in the content. CorporateM (Talk) 06:12, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that post and useful information. But to reinforce, there was NO COI problem, I meant my post exactly as written. I meant it more as a tip/observation in a subtle often-missed area. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

TPm

Hi North. Your input here would also be most welcome. (And to clarify, by "anti-TPm writers", you were referring to sources and not Wikipedia editors, correct?) Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 13:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Answering your last question, yes, I meant writers, not Wikipedia editors. I think that that was clear because I said that people were promoting them as being sources rather than as being the participants that they are, and nobody presents a Wikipedia editor as being a source. On your first question, pretty much any source that claims an "agenda" which nobody in the TPM is actually working on. Or who uses negative spin words to describe it. North8000 (talk) 15:01, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, what you said was clear to me, but when Arthur responded with "It is not necessary for the anti-TPm writers to be conscious of their bias", I got the impression he may have thought you were referring to Wikipedia editors. Can you please name a specific reliable academic source you feel has claimed an agenda which the TP isn't actually working on, or used negative words to describe it? (If I need to spell it out for you: I disagree with that assertion - I don't think any academic source recently presented fits that description, but I'm giving you the opportunity to cite an example that I may have overlooked.) Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 17:42, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I indicated the general problem and am not going here. User:North8000/Page2 North8000 (talk) 00:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

We must be talking about two different statements then. The one I'm talking about is this one by you:

Second, addressing Xenophrenic's comment, in the ongoing mess at this article, there have never been "(actual) reliable academic sources." That term has been often used to refer to anti-TPM writers (who are actually participants, not sources) who meet the letter of the "floor" of wp:rs (which has no criteria for actual reliability) and people have been misrepresenting the "r" in wp:rs as meaning real world / actual reliability. North8000 (talk) 00:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

As you can see, you didn't indicate a general problem at all. You presented a fiction: "there have never been (actual) reliable academic sources"; you were called on to support it; you would now rather not discuss it. I find that link to your little essay interesting. It's been my experience that nearly everyone gives consideration to what they say before they say it. I suppose there may be a scarce minority who do not; if they find their pronouncements frequently being "whacked", or are frequently asked to "substantiate" them at WP:WQA, "prove" them at ANI, or "put up or shut up" at ArbCom, then I guess they may even be compelled to write such an essay. To me, and this is just my opinion, it seems a lot less trouble to simply stick with non-fiction. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 02:23, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

There are so many incorrect things in what you just wrote that it would be too lengthy to respond. North8000 (talk) 10:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Poppycock. But I lack the motivation to continue that discussion right at this moment.

I just wanted to say thanks for the barnstar. I've heard you mention that you were "running out of gas" in the moderated discussions. I think I passed that point quite some time ago, and I feel like I've not only run out of gas but am forced to push this jalopy from behind in the sweltering heat (it's 102 degrees here as I type this), and the nearest gas station is nowhere in sight. Blech. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 20:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for putting that together. If there's one encouraging thing there, it's that the long time regulars seem to more be debating "what's best" instead of prioritizing tilting the article. Maybe everyone is panting behind the jalopy!  :-) North8000 (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Quick question for you. With Malke's latest proposal, that "is a conservative movement" wording that seems to bother you has crept back into the text. I reworded that sentence to be closer to the cited sources, and I believe I've addressed your concern at the same time. Here's Malke's wording (closer to my initial 12d proposal):

• The Tea Party is a conservative movement, but it has avoided involvement with conservative social, religious and family-values issues. National Tea Party organizations like the Tea Party Patriots...

And here's my latest wording from Proposal #15:

• The Tea Party has generally sought to avoid placing too much emphasis on traditional conservative social issues. Some national Tea Party organizations, such as the Tea Party Patriots...

Does the wording in the second example sufficiently address your concern? Xenophrenic (talk) 00:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Xen, where is the version that you are working on? Are you redoing version 15 right on the moderated discussion page? Can we join in? Malke 2010 (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see this before I departed for the holiday weekend, Malke. Yes, version 15 was the most recent one being modified, and of course you may join in. That version was archived while I was gone, so I've brought a copy back to the moderated discussion page and renumbered it "17", and edited it to include many of our discussed changes. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well,first, pretty much any of the versions written by you or Malke I consider good enough to go in, after which we would tweak them. That said, the wording that you described does help on the question. Since the TPM agenda doesn't match any of the "named" ideologies ((US) liberal, (US) conservative, (US) libertarian) I don't think that using any of those is useful in the agenda section. The reality is that it's agenda is (roughly) the overlap of US liberal and US conservative. They go heavy on smaller government, lower taxes, lower spending. (and "balanced budget" when it serves those ends) They go light on social issues. So if we need to use those terms, something like "reflects it's conservative and libertarian influences." might be good. North8000 (talk) 01:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The point I was trying to convey from the sources I was reading was that FreedomWorks and Tea Party Patriots were doing their best to steer their activists away from what would otherwise be standard conservative/Republican issues (The God/Gays/Guns stuff, etc.). Those same sources never mentioned that the movement was also trying to avoid typical libertarian issues as well. That's why only the "conservative" word was used in that particular context; it was never meant to imply that the movement didn't have both libertarian and conservative influences. I'm still playing with the wording, while looking for an old 2010 source on the subject I recall reading. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 20:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Sorry to write short. I'm traveling and buried this week and my Wikipedia participation is down to about 1/4. North8000 (talk) 04:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Good Article Barnstar
		For accomplishing the difficult task of reviewing the article Military history of Asian Americans I would like to present to you this barnstar as a sign of my appreciation for the review. Editors such as yourself ensure a high level of quality content on Wikipedia. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:22, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! And nice work on the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:47, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:BP

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:BP. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 22:15, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 00:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

GA request

I think the Ugg boots trademark dispute article is ready for your GA review to be restarted. As it had some new material added during the RFC you will need to re-read it. Considering how long it has taken so far there is no particular rush lol. I look forward to your comments. Cheers. Wayne (talk) 13:16, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I had closed out the last one. So the process would be that you would renominate it, let me know and then I'd be happy to start the review right away. I'd also be happy to take a look before renomination.....I'll do that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Looks pretty good. So you should re-nonimate it and let me know when you do. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I have re-nominated Ugg boots trademark dispute. Regards. Wayne (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Elizabeth II

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Elizabeth II. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 23:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 13:52, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are you ok with reliably-sourced material or not?

Before I seek formal mediation on the Second Amendment, I thought I'd give one last try just to discuss general wikipedia principles with you.

1. Do you agree with me that reliably sourced relevant, unbiased, non-redundant material in wikipedia should not be deleted?

2. Do you agree with me it is improper to revert an edit without checking the added material or its sources?

If you can agree that the answer to both these questions is yes, we might just reach a compromise. It befuddles me that you repeatedly label verbatim citations from Supreme Court opinions or the Library of Congress as somehow my personal biased POV. Assuming good faith on your part, I can only conclude you haven't read the citations. But that kind of personal attack is what has led to hostility at the article, which I would like to tone down. Otherwise, you and I may be fighting for decades.

If you cannot agree with me on these two points, at least let me know what your view about wikipedia policy is, and I'll know we have a more profound disagreement than the Second Amendment article.GreekParadise (talk) 05:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Everything in Wikipedia must be sourced or sourcable. The is a requirement for inclusion, not something that dictates inclusion. Material must also meet other Wikipedia requirements; if it meets all requirements, then editors and editor processes are allowed to choose whether it goes in the article. For any article, >99.99% of sourced material on the topic is not in the article, and <.01% is. Without even getting to the latter, your attempted use of an out of context phrase from Miller violates Wikipedia policy and so we never even get to the final question. It is mis-use of a primary source in a way that is not allowable per wp:ver and wp:nor, and in about the worst possible way.... the removal from context and any analysis does it in a way that deceives readers into believing that Scotus addressed the individual right question. (Which, by the way is also in direct conflict with immense wiki-suitable sourcing, including writes on both sides of the individual right question)

For me disagreeing with someone does not even the slightest bit mean hostility. Some of my best friends on Wikipedia are people who I seldom or never agree with. But your immensely bad and nasty behavior at the talk page (and even above, with false accusations and (maybe inadvertently) manipulative approach) and previous "carpet bombing" approach to editing the article is getting a lot of people upset. If you would just take a civil and normal approach to deal with areas of disagreement, then the whole thing could be friendly and pleasant, even if we disagreed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

So your question is the logical equivalent of me asking "are you OK with having human beings in your house?" and if you say yes, then I say "so that means you shall never tell a human being to leave your house". North8000 (talk) 14:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You claim I have attempted "an out of context phrase from Miller." Please be specific as to what you are referring to.GreekParadise (talk) 05:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

2nd Amendment, et. al.

Wow, I thought the NRA and Gun Politics articles were a "war zone", but they're nothing compared to what goes on here and the related articles... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Tea Party movement case resumed

This message is to inform you that the Arbitration Committee has decided to resume the Tea Party movement case, which currently is in its voting stages.

Regards, — ΛΧΣ²¹ 16:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

2nd Amendment

I haven't been watching this page that closely, but if things get hairy, please contact me on my talk page. I'll be glad to step in from time to time. ∴ Naapple TALK|CON 21:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Murray Rothbard

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Murray Rothbard. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 00:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

FEE

Hello North. You did a lot of work on the GAR for Foundation for Economic Education. If it is not on your watchlist would you care to look at it again? Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Happy to. It's in my watch list but I haven't really been watching. it. North8000 (talk) 00:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Saw your comment. How about opining on the section above? Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 02:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I went there and read some but not enough to see/understand what is happening there/ what any open issues are. I was planning to / will go back and absorb / understand more. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Where U at?

Argh... the narrow minded ones are doing their thing at Talk:Gun_control... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:34, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been gone. Getting back in the saddle now. North8000 (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Good to see you back! So a question, I've been working under the assumption/impression that gun control is a subset of gun politics versus the other way around simply because legislation that involves guns, but has nothing to do with "control" exists. Not so...? Just to be clear, they are distinct topics to me and should have their own articles. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. We agree on the big picture, and maybe see a sidebar item a little differently. Thanks for the post. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I think one of your recent comments may have been confusing on this point. I believe you were raising a rhetorical argument, but it comes off a bit confusing. I think you are saying that TFD is making a logical fallacy, but it is unclear "Such would lend some support to an argument that gun politics is a subset of gun control, and zero support to an assertion of the reverse or that they are synonymous." However, per his request, I have added several sources that are discussing gun politics without discussing gun control (or at least identifying topics within gun politics other than gun control). Gaijin42 (talk) 20:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You are right......I guess should skipped the "some" sidebar point, and now emphasize that that "some" isn't much. North8000 (talk) 00:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Tea Party arbcom Case

I just noticed this. I have a bit to say, but is there an appropriate forum at this point? Is it too late? Thanks.William Jockusch (talk) 06:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been gone. Getting back in the saddle now. That's a complicated question The Arbcom case was sent off onto a tangent from it's inception so I don't know where it can end up (see my "60,000' view post there). Maybe take a glance at that and we can talk more. Regarding TPM there is also the talk page and also and moderated discussion page, and also an RFC/U. North8000 (talk) 00:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC).

Please comment on Talk:Barack Obama

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Barack Obama. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 00:15, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 15:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Re: March Against Monsanto

Some of this may be OK, but this is a massive bundle of controversial rework and deletion of sources

Er, no it isn't. None of these sources have anything to with the subject.[18] It's pure original research. Do you understand that we can only write articles using sources about the subject? You won't find the words "March Against Monsanto" anywhere. This was previously discussed when Thargor tried it last month and there was no consensus on the talk page for his additions. Now, ‎ "SpectraValor" has shown up to try again. I'm completely confused when you say this is a "controversial rework". Nothing has been reworked or changed. The article has been completely stable for the last few weeks until these guys tried to add the same nonsense back into the article. The scientific consensus is well represented in the current version. Viriditas (talk) 01:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

No, that isn't rule (policy or guideline) so you are in error. And no, it isn't wp:or because it is wp:suitably sourced. So you are wrong on both counts. I am more concerned about a good process for such changes (vs. the huge bundle that you just dropped) than any end result, so if you could just unbundle and discuss, I think that things would go much better. Interestingly, I think that my POV is the same as yours on this, but as always, when we enter as editors we need to check such that at the door and so 50% of my "disputes" are with people who are promoting my POV. That is our duty as editors in wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 01:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I've responded to this on the article talk page. It sounds to me like you 1) you aren't familiar with the OR policy, 2) you didn't look at the diff of the disputed edit, and 3) you didn't notice that the sources were off-topic. If you had at the very least looked at 1, 2, or 3, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Viriditas (talk) 01:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Without examining the references to closely, I'd say Viriditas is correct. The WP article is about Monsanto and protests concerning Monsanto itself. It is not about GMOs -- that topic is properly covered by the hatnote article. With this in mind, adding info about the wonderfulness or evilness of GMOs is off-topic. Even if reliably sourced, the added info serves to imply something not found in the actual sources -- that Monsanto or GMOs are evil or heavenly -- so adding such info is improper synthesis. (And please forgive me for butting in.) – S. Rich (talk) 03:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I wish that there was a degree-of-relevancy criteria for article content (as Viriditas is erroneously asserting) but there isn't. But either way I'm all for keeping the general GMO debate out of the article. But that doesn't mean on one-sided inclusion of the anti-GMO talking points under the premise that that is what the protestors are saying. North8000 (talk) 11:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

That Monsanto stuff caught my eye much to late in the evening. (I put your page on my list after I posted a note to you a while back.) I should've stayed away. After a very quick review, I think the confusion there occurs because people/editors are mixing fringe science with fringe opinion. "GMOs are dangerous because science can't prove they are safe." Response: "You can't say that because that's fringe science." Response: "But science has not found any danger." Response: "The Europeans are banning GMOs." Response: "In the US everyone is eating GMO food, but don't suffer any ill effects." Response: "People are protesting in massive numbers -- let democracy have its way. Besides, what harm is there in simply labeling the products." Response: "Those people are a tiny minority, they are promoting fringe science, they are fringe." A mulberry bush is in there somewhere. I wonder if mull-berries can be GE'd. Cheers. – S. Rich (talk) 15:55, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that the main thread between me and Viriditas has moved to the article; what helps is that Viriditas ostensibly wants the same thing that I do....minimizing the article becoming a presentation of the sides of the GMO debate. As is usually the case, there are numerous complexities involved. In the RW, people who have a certain point of view often sit silently when someone who is supporting their cause makes an argument that they know is invalid. And at an article, people see adding or avoiding skewing to a wikipedia article as a means to further their cause and will support any argument which tends to do that. I really do check my RW POV's at the door when I put my WP editor hat on. As a result, about 50% of the time when I get into one of these spirited debates it involves opposing someone who supports my RW POV, and supporting someone what is against my RW POV. Which is sort of the case here. I really don't like GMO's (even though I think that the common current ones are safe), but am opposing those who want to make/keep the article a vehicle to promote that POV. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at Golden rice. A GMO food that will save/improve the lives of millions of children – each year. – S. Rich (talk) 19:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course you are right. My main concern is GMO enters us into a realm where anything can happen. After we get comfortable/complacent with it, someone could make a mistake which overruns the world. Also that it (like many other things) represents an enabler / issue avoidance of the fact that the earth can hold only a few billion people without population creating hundreds of problems / that the pyramid scheme of planning everything on a foundation of eternal population growth is a pyramid scheme. E.G. Nitrogen fertilizer just kicked the can down the road and put us on a new plateau where the problem isn't solved but we now can't survive without heavily using it. Whew, we're getting deep in here!  :-) Thanks for the post! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Agent Orange

The person who removed GMO research results as not being germane just added that Monsanto made Agent Orange during the Veit Nam war.

This was added to the background section. The source (CNN) is about the March Against Monsanto, so it is entirely germane.[19] The GMO research resultss had nothing to do with this topic. I'm surprised you don't see the difference. Tapper writes:

Monsanto is a giant, $58 billion multinational corporation with field offices in 60 countries. It was founded more than 100 years ago – and is best known for producing the chemical known as Agent Orange that scorched thousands of miles of earth during the Vietnam war.

You don't believe that mentioning they are known for Agent Orange is relevant? Why do the preponderance of reliable sources about the march believe it is relevant?[20][21][22] Perhaps the problem isn't that we mentioned Agent Orange, the problem is that we only mentioned Agent Orange, and not Roundup, Dioxin, and PCBs all in the same sentence. Viriditas (talk) 08:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:BP

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:BP. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 14:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

andy

just gave you your cue in the AN thread :) Gaijin42 (talk) 18:51, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The ironic part is that there is a nice discussion with open minds there just waiting to be joined with folks clearly just trying to figure out the best thing to do. Instead of just tossing hand grenades. North8000 (talk) 19:06, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

gun control DR

There is a DR of which I have included you as a participant. Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Gun_Control (by Gaijin42)

Maybe that could work! North8000 (talk) 00:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

As the AN has closed, this has been reopened. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Monster Cable Products

Hi North. I should be active on the Talk page again soon, probably this weekend. We've had a hard time getting any kind of approval or green light on anything (or any feedback from Monster at all really), so I'll just be running with my first draft and will ask for forgiveness later. As a result, it may be somewhat drafty though.

So far I've got a "do the cables make a difference" section, a draft Products section, and a "Relationship with retailers" section (the first paragraph of the performance section goes here). I think the other thing you wanted to be a priority was the trademark disputes, so I've got that and the History on my To Do list. Probably most of the other content like the candlestick sponsorship controversy, the relationship with Dr. Dre and a lot of missing content about the other less controversial stuff would go under history.

There are also a lot of reviews for dozens of different products and I haven't figured out how to handle Reception yet, there being so many different products, but I figure that's the last priority. CorporateM (Talk) 23:25, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Just clarifying, those were my suggestions. North8000 (talk) 00:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Maybe I'll do the history after these. I do want to balance the article a bit so that it doesn't cover the controversies exclusively. CorporateM (Talk) 13:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

FYI I've submitted the CEO's page at: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Noel Lee CorporateM (Talk) 13:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I just gave the CEO draft another fresh read. I think it is slightly bias, but definitely an improvement over not having an article and something others can improve upon. One thing that comes to mind is how he grew the company by convincing people that cables make a difference. This is a big part of his story, but somehow needs to be balanced with the fact that not everyone is convinced. I'm not sure exactly how though. CorporateM (Talk) 13:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I think I'm done tinkering with the cable performance section. I don't think there is any way to get the original source material from Stereo Magazine, which is too bad since the unreliable source repeating the information has an obvious agenda to view the results from a certain lens. Might be something that will come up in a GA review later on. Let me know what you would like to do RE next steps for this section and the others. No rush. CorporateM (Talk) 18:01, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hey North. For the Monster page, do you want to give me a Request Edit|G, or put the materials in? Or would you prefer I make the edit? One concern I have is that the editors that previously added the clearly bias material will come back and accuse me of spin, violations of WP:COI and the like. Though I suppose such accusations are unavoidable, regardless of who makes the edit. Also, I wasn't sure if I should add all the material or just that one section. CorporateM (Talk) 18:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll email you about my upcoming schedule.North8000 (talk) 19:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi North. Just a heads up, I asked Monster if they had the original Stereo Review Magazine articles from 1983 and 1990, so we could use the actual source, instead of relying on this (obviously bias) website recanting what the original article said. She said that they are pack-rats, so they just might have it! If I can get my hands on a copy, would you like one? CorporateM (Talk) 21:30, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks...sure would. BTW, I think that the article at that link that you provided did a pretty good, impartial and practical job. ((Other than the cynicism about why some people would buy something that is better than practically needed....that's a big part of what audiophile is about.) North8000 (talk) 13:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

When Stereo Review Magazine dialed back its criticisms, the website speculates this was caused by an advertising relationship, then when they say gauge is all that matters, he labels it "an honest answer." It's apparent which side of the debate the author is on, but actually you're right. He does include POVs he doesn't agree with and there are reliable sources on both sides. BTW, I am not an audiophile and personally see no reason to upgrade from free lamp wire, so unlike the Yelp page, my personal opinion is not really that self-serving. I realized I must be pretty bias on the Yelp controversy, because - like Wikidemon (I think) - I approach the topic with the assumption that Yelp is not actually tampering with reviews. When you raised whether they were actually, I cringed. I think I'll just work on less controversial areas where I don't have an opinion.

Anyways, since I seem to have an open license to bug you endlessly (as long as I'm patient), if you have a minute, I'd be interested in your opinion on the Hightail (formerly YouSendIt) page again. At the very bottom of Talk, I mentioned an editor removed some content and I think made the article worse. CorporateM (Talk) 13:45, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Yelp, I don't know what they have or haven't done, but I do know that there is widespread mistrust of them. Regarding Hightail, happy to do it and will do. North8000 (talk) 14:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I have sent the Second Amendment article to dispute resolution.

Please feel free to comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution GreekParadise (talk) 04:16, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I've also posted a RfC. Please help resolve this. I'm tired of going in circles on this. This needs to be resolved. If this fails, we will have to go to formal arbitration. I just don't believe you have a right to hide or de-emphasize the law as it existed from 1939 to 2008. You should state the law fairly and neutrally in chronological order and not hide the law in the intro, then post a bunch of pro-gun scholars and pages and pages of pre-ratification discussions that have little relevance while hiding at the very bottom where you know few readers will go the law as it existed for 70 years in a single disparaging paragraph. That's not fair. If one justice changes his/her mind or retires and a new one appointed, would you be fine with pages and pages citing only the militia view and one small disparaging paragraph on Heller stating for five years an individual right was found but then corrected?

Please try to be fair and neutral as if you were really trying to write an encyclopedia that gave actual history rather than writing as anti-gun-regulation advocate. Remove your personal political views and ask yourself is this a article that fairly portrays the actual legal history of the Second Amendment through time? Or is it an article with an agenda to persuade the reader that Scalia's view of the law in 2008 is the only way the law has ever been from the beginning of time? Be fair. Strive to be neutral. Discuss what the case law actually said the law was at the time we are discussing. And we can finally resolve this continuing headache. I fully agree Heller and post-Heller cases are important. But to devote 10 pages to pre-1791 and 10 pages to post-2008 with a part of one sentence on 1939-2008 strikes me as extremely biased and unfair.

I'll make a personal plea. You are the only one of the wikipedia editors I disagree with that has actually read some of my sources and knows I have them right. The others just refuse to read them and dismiss them as false because they choose to believe Scalia would not possibly misstate prior law. But you know that post Miller and pre-Heller, the militia view prevailed. Allow me to have a section: "1939-2008: The Militia Era" rather than a miserly part of a sentence. Then we can have "2008- :The Individual Rights Era" and both sides can be fairly represented.

If you don't agree, I'll have no choice but to keep posting warning notices on the article. I don't want someone who is uninformed on this issue to mistakenly believe that the individual rights theory has always been the sole theory of the Second Amendment from the beginning of time. You and I both know that is untrue.GreekParadise (talk) 05:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Here I'm going to speak to the reasonable side of you. The 30,000 ft.view is that during the period that you are emphasizing the general "individual right" was not challenged, nor was it addressed by the courts. The cases taken to the higher courts (most notably Miller) involved unusual weapons and unusual situations, and were decided based on whether the milita related language protected the particular behavior, and the individual right question was not taken up by any higher courts. You have been try to spin up / gin up the situation that I just described to sound like the "individual right" was taken up and rejected during that prior. This is wrong many times over and on many different grounds. You have also been trying to do many other things that are far out of line in Wikipedia terms, including leveling many false accusations against other editors as a way to further your POV.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:29, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Take to 3O?

Have you two thoroughly discussed the issue? Are you at a standstill? If so, I suggest you post the question at WP:3O. – S. Rich (talk) 05:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you referring to the previous post? If so, it's a huge immense story, and I'm just a very tiny piece of it. North8000 (talk) 13:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I shudda posted a link to the particular discussion. Talk:Libertarianism#Can_we_please_stop_confusing_state_.22government.22_and_.22state.22.3F. I'll post at Finx as well. – S. Rich (talk) 14:21, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

At libertarianism, for years we have had folks from both extremes beating us folks in the middle up for not having the article reflect that their preferred version of libertarianism is the "one true form". The result of a huge RFC plus ensuing 3 years of dialog has been that the article is to cover all significant strands of libertarianism. I've been a pseudo-moderator at the article and am merely the one who has elucidated this to Finx,, but there is an immense group there who supports covering both types.

So, to oversimplify, Finx is one of about 20 "Type A" libertarians who says that "Type B" libertarians should be excluded or deprecated. And another 20 "Type B" libertarians have said that "Type A" libertarians should be excluded or deprecated. I am merely elucidating the decided-upon common ground that both shall be covered. North8000 (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

dr

Just in case you noticed that the DRN listing of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Second Amendment to the United States Constitution was closed, please note that it has been reopened and your participation there would be very much appreciated. — Gaijin42 (talk) 18:48, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Kamapitha

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Kamapitha. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 00:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Done (started) North8000 (talk) 02:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Hi North, I have answered your query in the talk page. Chaipau (talk) 20:30, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks. I noticed but was trying to think of what to say next. I'll do that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• The other editor has rejected the compromise. Chaipau (talk) 08:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is difficult working with the other editor, and I require your help. He is removing a particular source at his own whim (diff, and is not responding to appeals diff. Chaipau (talk) 23:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Recent reverts

Und massive fast barrage of edits which deleted massive amount of sources and material on invalid grounds. Please slow down. split it up and discuss proposed edits.

Proposed edits? You have it backwards. I restored the last stable version of the article that did not violate the OR policy, was compliant on the use of citations in the WP:LEAD, and used WP:RS only about the subject. That's standard. What did your edit do? It restored unnecessary citations to the lead section which summarizes reliably sourced content already in the body and adds off topic sources that have nothing to do with the topic. You also added wording that comes not from a reliable source, but from a video editorial blurb that is no longer in the article. So your edit summary makes no sense whatsoever. You cannot show anything wrong with the current wording because it is sourced directly to a source about the march from the Associated Press. This is unlike the version you restored which is sourced to citations that have nothing to do with the subject. Viriditas (talk) 04:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Please also note, you have a habit of removing content and refusing to justify your removals. "Agent Orange", for example, was removed from the article without any justification. I have asked you to explain this edit up above but you have not replied. Viriditas (talk) 04:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a lengthy debate and best not split from the article talk page. I'll just note a couple of things here. You have been inventing a non-existent policy as justification for removal of sources. Essentially claiming that if a source does not discuss the topic of the article use of the source in the article is "OR" and justifies you removing the sources (and even en masse) This is wrong in so many ways that I don't know where to start. Second is simply a process standpoint. You have been dominating the article content (and towards a particular POV) with massive barrages/bundles of edits, and on the very items which are contentious and under discussion. If you would heed the advice above "Please slow down. split it up and discuss proposed edits" or at least two of the three recommendations, I think that things can all get worked out using the normal processes. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The WP:NOR policy is perfectly clear

"you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented...Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources, or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context...Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research...precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published on Wikipedia.

Your claim that this policy is "non-existent" has now been refuted. "Essentially claiming that if a source does not discuss the topic of the article use of the source in the article is "OR" is policy and always has been. Where the hell have you been? Are you editing in some kind of alternative universe where we don't have a NOR policy and Mitt Romney is president? Here's a challenge to your intellect, North. If you are so certain you are right, surely you can find a single featured article where the sources are used in the way you support? Just one? Viriditas (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

And, are you ever going to answer the question as to why you removed "Agent Orange" from the article without any reason? This is the third time I have asked you to respond to this query. If you can't defend your edits, then you need to stop making them. It is pretty simple. Viriditas (talk) 14:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

On your first point, you are neglecting what that is about, it sets a sourcing requirement for presence of material, it does not set a requirement for the presence of a source. And doubly so it does not provide a license for you to unilaterally delete amount amount of wp:RS sources, triply so wiitha a massive contested deletion on a topic that is the subject of the current discussion. On your second question I thought that the answer (not germane) was obvious from the edit summary. What does making Agent Orange for the Vietnam war over 40 years ago have to do with the current/recent protests? And if you think that it is germane, simply take it up on the article talk page. North8000 (talk) 15:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I can certainly delete those sources because they had nothing to do with the topic and were not even remotely related to the protest movement. We don't write articles about off-topic sources. There may be room to add a note indicating that more can be found about the scientific consensus by looking at source a, b, and c, but inline, not that's just not done. And, what does Agent Orange have to do with the subject? The sources about the protest evidently think it is germane, and you wouldn't be asking me if you read them. Stop removing material if you haven't read the sources. Viriditas (talk) 15:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm just one editor. My main advice is to unbundle these things and take them to talk at the article. North8000 (talk) 15:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

In other words, for a fourth time, you absolutely refuse to explain why you removed the term. Got it. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Quit the crap. I already answered it twice....once in the edit summary and again more explicitly above. North8000 (talk) 00:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Viriditas, I have an issue with a statement you've made several times in Edit Summaries for the March Against Monsanto article, "Don't need sources in lead" and variations of this. Quoting from the WP Manual of Style regarding the Lead:

The lead is the first part of the article most people read, and many read only the lead. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, but the lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at content that follows. Instead, the lead should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view; it should ideally contain no more than four paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate.

North was correct to inquire about your edit habits if you have fundamental misconceptions about Wikipedia such as this. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, everything in the lead under discussion was already sourced in the body per my edit summary, and nothing in the lead was controversial. Therefore we didn't need any sources in the lead as they were redundant and impacted readability. Please try to get your facts straight before you make silly claims like this. North was not correct to inquire about my "edit habits" at all, and I have no "fundamental misconception" about how we write lead sections. Since there was absolutely nothing controversial or in dispute found in the lead, and since everything was already cited, there is absolutely no reason for them to be added back in. The sole reason they were added back was due to blanket reverts made by editors who were edit warring. So you're not even on topic here. Viriditas (talk) 23:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) This is true, but also Wikipedia:LEADCITE#Citations "Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material." (tempered by) "Some material, including direct quotations and contentious material about living persons must be provided with an inline citation every time it is mentioned, regardless of the level of generality or the location of the statement." Personally, I think that only information that is likely to be controvercial/challenged should be cited in the lede (assuming the same information is cited in the body) but I believe the general consensus is more of an all/none situation. I am not aware of the specifics in this situation, so the following statement is not intended to be an comment on anyone here's behavior or edits : It has been my experience that people often try to tag or remove summary paragraph introductory statements or lede statements that are strongly backed by cited statements later in the paragraph/body as a method of wiki-lawyering/stonewalling. Conversely some editors attempt to use the leeway granted by non-lawyers to slip in stuff that certainly SHOULD be cited. Both extremes are a problem. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Tea Party movement case - final decision motion

This is a courtesy notice to inform you that a motion (which affects you) has been proposed to close the Tea Party movement case. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

For being so sensible and nice. I can't imagine why I ever got mad at you, so you don't have to keep reminding me I did  :-)

User:Carolmooredc 20:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! BTW, I never mean to remind you. A few situations arise where I think useful to say "been there, it's no big deal, and respected when it's from someone who's sole focus here is quality articles. North8000 (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Appreciated, but feel free to avoid blowback from others on it. User:Carolmooredc 14:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

DYK RfC

• As a listed GA participant, you are invited to contribute to a formal Request for Comment on the question of whether Good Articles should be eligible to appear in the Did You Know? slot in future. Please see the proposal on its subpage here, or on the main DYK talk page. To add the discussion to your watchlist, click this link. Thank you in advance. Gilderien Chat|Contributions03:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act

I hope i just didn't seriously 'step in doo doo', but I moved the Federal Assault Weapons Ban article to its actual title. I moved (and redirected) the Talk page and fixed the other redirects as well. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I think a good move. North8000 (talk) 16:28, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Update - Hey North, I've been somewhat purposely staying out of this one. The amount of discussion around this is just staggering. After martyring myself with the Second Amendment article, I thought it might be a good idea to take it easy for a bit with lower profile articles. Anything I can help with? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to answer so slow. I was gone a few days but more importantly I needed some time to figure out a recommendation, which requires summarizing the situation. I see it roughly like this:

• There were/are two POV-warrior editors saying "big changes needed" and both (in different ways) behaved in a way (including barrages/avalanches of edits) that totally disrupted and prevented any rational process, and nastified the situation. One (who was blatantly nasty) is now topic banned and the other (who is only subtly nasty) is up at ANI but still scrambling and nastifying the process at the article, albeit to a much lesser extent. And so it's kind of in a recovery/jumbled state, slowed down by one person still doing that stuff, albiet to a much lesser extent.
• The other group of editors (which come from BOTH sides of the real world debate) who see it's as a typical article, which it's state as OK, but are also want to make it better and are very open to discussions and changes.

So I think that the important thing is to take a stand against any scrambling of the process. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:48, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility). Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 00:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Big Blue River Bridge (Grafton, Nebraska)/GA1

Are you going to finish the review? SL93 (talk) 07:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, sorry for being slow. A combination of being it being a bit unusual plus me being mostly off-wiki at the moment. North8000 (talk) 16:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Mostly done, awaiting response from editor(s). North8000 (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey North, I'm still cheering for you at Intelligent design.

Don't let them get the best of you. I think an existential challenge (like a news media story on the ostensible WP:NPOV pillar and how well it's holding up Wikipedia) that gets Jimbo's attention is the only thing that can reform the POV and article-ownership over there. Don't get kicked out, just for speaking accurately and pushing it. 12.226.82.2 (talk) 06:11, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess that is an example of leaving one's POV at the door when editing. Over there I am butting heads with the folks who have the same real-world POV on the topic as me, and supporting folks who have the opposite real-world POV as me. It won't need Jimbo to fix it, I think that a concerted effort by I'd guess 3-5 people would do it. 1-2 of those will need to know Wikipedia policies well enough to deflate the baloney (creative modification of policies to pretend that non-existent ones exist) that they are using to avoid it getting fixed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Steven Crowder

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Steven Crowder. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 01:15, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Done North8000 (talk) 15:06, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Anarchism

Hey, North8000! I just wanted to say thanks for the pleasant conversation on Talk:Libertarianism. I almost don't want to continue the discussion there because it's not related to article improvement per se, but I think many editors will benefit from the latest description of anarchism. If you have any further questions, please let me know and I'll be happy to address them as best I can. I tend to be more of an "anarchist without adjectives" as far as political action goes, but I am extremely fond of both Tuckerite socialism and Murray Bookchin's libertarian municipalism and will know more about these theories than the others I listed previously. I may not be able to answer all your questions, but I should be able to point you in the right direction at least. Anyway, thanks again and have a great break! -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 17:31, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. One thought that I've had over the last 3-4 years there after reading a lot of sources and the article itself is that (ironically) the most informative place to learn about certain aspects (particularly comparative ones) of libertarianism is on the talk page of the libertarianism article. (I should add "MisterDub's FAQ material that North reverted" to that :-)) (A few years ago there was actually an article in a magazine that said that, when we were using a table to try to sort out the various strands and tenets) And items like the answer that you prepared for me are certainly an example of that. North8000 (talk) 18:06, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Agenda of the Tea Party movement

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Agenda of the Tea Party movement. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 01:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Gary North (economist)

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Gary North (economist). Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 12:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

ANI notice

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. I've posted the personal attacks by Ubikwit on the ANI. You might want to comment since you commented on the PD talk about it. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU

Thank you for support. I've felt so lonely on that page, and your comment was appreciated.

I have had a Wikipedia account for many years but until recently have made few contributions. Since I'm struggling to master this editorial "talk" thing, I've gone back to square one and reviewed the tutorial and I'm doing my level best to do it right.

On an unrelated note, I love the photo on your user page. When I was a girl, my dad took the cane from an old fishing pole and fixed a clean tuna can onto the end. We'd put seeds in it and then I would stand out in the snow and call "chick-a-dee-dee-dee." Eventually, I had them eating from my hand. Sigh. Life was simpler then...

Thanks again.

--Lightbreather (talk) 21:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I haven't gotten deep enough to understand the issues, but that one particular one was pretty clear cut. If a neighborhood kid brought me a high quality book, I wouldn't try to exclude the book because of where I got it.

When you entered editing in Wikipedia you jumped down a rabbit hole where many things are weird or confusing. Let me know if I can help.

I also love that picture....probably due to a combination of about 6 reasons. I found it at the snowshoe article.

Life was simpler then, but you can still do that stuff. A worthy quest! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the human kindness. I'm not feeling much love on WP right now. Lightbreather (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello Lightbreather,

I've helped a lot of newer folks who were having trouble with the system, and would be happy to help if I can. There are two different levels of actual or perceived nastiness on Wikipedia.

1. Is a combination of it being a confusing place, and a bit "rough and tumble". I think that you are running into a combination of these, plus (and probably the most important) you have chosen about the most difficult imaginable place to start, which is doing a large amount of edits on a contentious-topic article.
2. Wikipedia can be a very vicious place. The good news is that you have not encountered that aspect yet. The bad news is that that means it can get a lot worse.  :-)

Let me know if I can help. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

ID Dispute resolution

As you know, we have frequent disputes on the Talk:Intelligent design page that focus on distinguishing Intelligent design from the teleological argument. I have started a new section on the dispute resolution noticeboard for this and listed you as a participant in these disputes. If you have some time, please stop over and explain what your proposed resolution is and why you believe this to be the case. Thank you! -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 23:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! North8000 (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The thread is "Talk:Intelligent design". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! EarwigBot ^{operator / talk} 23:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

BRD

Discussion may take place on the article talk page or the editor talk page. Dispute resolution process requires discussion, but it need not be on the article's talk page. Did you see the talk page discussion I began? Also of note is the fact that DRN does indeed take requests based on the equal footing of the editor talk page in instances where extensive discussion takes place there and not the article's talk page. It is not misleading, it is common practice.--Mark 16:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course all of that is true. But it does not address the concern and basis expressed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:55, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on the actual concern and basis? BRD is about a bold edit, followed by a revert and then by discussion. Why is suggesting that it is acceptable to use an editor's talk page per policy, guidelines and the DR process inappropriate?--Mark 17:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

First, it's no biggee, I just decided to weigh in on the process. IMHO it's not that it would be really bad or against policy with your edit, it's just that it would better without it. And the reason for that is that the best place for discussion about the article is the article talk page. Conversations on the talk page of an individual editor tend to split the conversation, and are not seen or participated in by most of the editors at the article. Sincerley, North8000 (talk) 23:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

The only reason that it seems of some importance is because its "Bold, revert, discuss" and I believe that BRD is in some ways a manner of Dispute resolution itself. Now, the reason I feel it is an improvement to the article (essay) is that editors are actually confusing what is meant by discussion and I feel it is important to let editors know (or remind them) that discussion can be almost anywhere (within some limits). This really does have an impact on disputes when one is saying that there has been no discussion when, in fact, there is substantial discussion on the editor talk pages. If DR/N accepts that as do the other DR processes, why wouldn't we want to at least mention it on the BRD essay where editors will be looking for this information? At this time there is no consensus for inclusion of the content but I am not giving up as I do feel this is a very important issue for Wikipedia, BRD in general as well as our dispute resolution process. Thanks for replying!--Mark 23:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs people like you sincerely working to try to make things better. As I mentioned, to me it's no biggee either way and I'd be happy to step back. North8000 (talk) 00:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Bangladesh Liberation War

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Bangladesh Liberation War. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 01:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 11:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I took it to talk

Why is the citation of Daniel Alan Butler, who knows NOTHING about science, being allowed to pander this garbage? The citation attached to this was completely invalid - a misinterpretation of hearsay by a bad author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.105.38 (talk) 01:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

What you said sounds good. Rather than duplicate things, we should consolidate the conversation at the talk page of the article. North8000 (talk) 01:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

A cheeseburger for you!

Thanks for your comment on the 2A talk page. SMP0328. (talk) 03:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! The compliment and expression of confidence that I gave was well deserved. You are a great editor to work with. North8000 (talk) 10:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

intelligent design discussions

Hi. I shall make a broader announcement soon, but I am creating an FAQ on my userspace to assist discussion concerning intelligent design: [23]. Do you have any suggestions while I am drafting? Please feel free to post them on the talk page.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement closed

An arbitration case, in which you were named as party, has now closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

Pages related to the Tea Party movement, broadly construed, are placed under discretionary sanctions. This sanction supersedes the existing community sanctions.

The current community sanctions are lifted.

Goethean (talk · contribs), North8000 (talk · contribs), Malke 2010 (talk · contribs), Xenophrenic (talk · contribs), Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs), Ubikwit (talk · contribs), Phoenix and Winslow (talk · contribs) are indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to the Tea Party movement, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed to the Arbitration Committee after no less than six months have passed from the closing of this case.

Collect (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from all pages relating to the Tea Party movement, broadly construed. This topic ban will expire after six months from the date this case is closed on.

Xenophrenic (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from interacting with, or commenting on, Collect (talk · contribs) anywhere on Wikipedia (subject to the ordinary exceptions).

Snowded (talk · contribs) and Phoenix and Winslow (talk · contribs) are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with, or commenting on, each other anywhere on Wikipedia (subject to the ordinary exceptions).

For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Adolf Hitler

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Adolf Hitler. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 01:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 12:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool update

Hey North8000. I'm contacting you because you're involved in the Article Feedback Tool in some way, either as a previous newsletter recipient or as an active user of the system. As you might have heard, a user recently anonymously disabled the feedback tool on 2,000 pages. We were unable to track or prevent this due to the lack of logging feature in AFT5. We're deeply sorry for this, as we know that quite a few users found the software very useful, and were using it on their articles.

We've now re-released the software, with the addition of a logging feature and restrictions on the ability to disable. Obviously, we're not going to automatically re-enable it on each article—we don't want to create a situation where it was enabled by users who have now moved on, and feedback would sit there unattended—but if you're interested in enabling it for your articles, it's pretty simple to do. Just go to the article you want to enable it on, click the "request feedback" link in the toolbox in the sidebar, and AFT5 will be enabled for that article.

Again, we're very sorry about this issue; hopefully it'll be smooth sailing after this :). If you have any questions, just drop them at the talkpage. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) 21:57, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Scott Alexander (politician)

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Scott Alexander (politician). Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Monster Pricing and Performance

Hi North. I know you're not a BrightLiner RE COI, but I was hoping to get your input on my Request Edit for the Pricing and Performance section we've been working on. I haven't gotten any input or archived articles from Monster, so my plan is to just keep things moving along. CorporateM (Talk) 12:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Happy to. I commented there. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I think we reached a great version - much better thanks to the participation of multiple editors. If you're content with that at least "for now" we can move on to the Relationship with retailers section.

BTW - I could also use a "partner in crime" here for the Noodles & Company page and here for SAS (software) if you have the time/interest.

As such a heavy producer of content in a COI capacity, my need for collaboration and time from other editors is bottomless. As I've said before, please let me know if I'm wearing you out! I'll also ping User:Crisco 1492 here in case he/she is interested in helping on these other articles. CorporateM (Talk) 17:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey North. Crisco handled the Noodles & Company article, which I'll take through the GA circuit once it's "settled" and commented on the SAS (software) page, where I've also asked Dreamyshade (who has an interest in software articles) if they have an interest in participating. I still need an editor to lookover the proposed Relationship with retailers section on the Monster (company) article and wanted to see if you had an interest in that as well or if your interests were primarily in the performance debate. Either way is A-ok, just trying to figure out if I should wait a while longer for you to get around to it or shop around an editor interested in helping. I would understand if you were tapped out! CorporateM (Talk) 18:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that what happened is that I quickly went to the article and saw that it was not clear what the question was. So I told myself that I would come back when I had more time to overall gain an understanding. And then that "more time" moment never came. That said I'm going over there right now.....Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 21:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I'll go put it in. North8000 (talk) 21:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Cool. I queued up a Products section next for whenever you have time to circle back. Once we do that and the Early history, it'll be in my court to do some research on some of these other topics, like trademarks and the Dr. Dre relationship. CorporateM (Talk) 23:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't sure about what should be overwritten. I guess I move like a bull in a china shop......but it's done! :-) North8000 (talk) 21:08, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Often bold editing goes off the wayside when a PR rep gets involved. I think it's a good thing for anyone but the PR rep that is. I took a shot at the Trademarks section and offered some comments. Also, I'm not convinced it needs its own section, rather than being part of the history, as was done here. Most of the trademark lawsuits seem to have taken place in 2004 with a few being more recent. A blip in Monster's 30-year history. CorporateM (Talk) 12:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll get to work on the History. That should get me off your back for a few days while I work on it ;-)

If I haven't out-worn my welcome yet, I could also use a second pair of eyes on a couple small things here and here. (see User:Gigs comments about the AfC here). As usual, if you don't have the time/interest, that's ok too! In my COI role, I have a bottomless need for collaboration. CorporateM (Talk) 15:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Ian Charles Stewart

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Ian Charles Stewart. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 20:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Liberty University

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Liberty University. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 12:10, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Re:Your newish signature

Hello North. Thank you for the note. Yes, I kind-of noticed S Marshall in a few places here and there.
For what it's worth, I did create my account a year before S Marshall. :)
But, I suppose changing my signature might be of help.
Regards.--13:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

No biggee either way....In my quick glance, I saw that you've been around a long time....but he seemed to have that "look" first. Again, it's just an FYI. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:30, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks North.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 15:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

You are fast!  :-) North8000 (talk) 16:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Template editor user right

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Template editor user right. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Monster

Hey North. I took a shot at the History section of the Monster article at: User:CorporateM/Monster. I think I'll need to take a second shot at the Products section at some point, because I ended up putting a lot of that stuff into the History section. But this will definitely round out the article into pretty decent page. Home stretch! CorporateM (Talk) 02:55, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of unusual deaths

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:List of unusual deaths. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 01:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

You make a difference

	Hello North8000, Lionelt has given you a delicious Chick-Fil-A sammie, for your faithful service and commitment to Wikipedia! You see, these things promote WikiLove and hopefully this has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a delicious Chick-Fil-A sammie! Enjoy!

When you get back

I hope you enjoy your time off the grid, and I'm sort of jealous, actually. When you get back, I want to make sure you see: [24]. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:16, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Template talk:Infobox album

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Template talk:Infobox album. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 01:37, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Monster (company)

Hi North. I've been trying not to pester you, because I saw some other comments on your Talk page to the effect that you were out for a while. I was wondering if you were back and had some time to devote to this article. I just have a few more things on my To Do list and it should be GAN ready.

Right now there are two controversies that are covered twice, in duplicates (once in dedicated sections and once under History). It being a controversial area, it would be inappropriate for me to clean up the redundancy myself.

Do you have time to take a look? I've pinged a good half-dozen editors looking for someone willing to get involved, but I get a lot of the "maybe in a week or two" which in my experience usually doesn't pan out (or maybe it's just that I usually say that and don't end up doing so) CorporateM (Talk) 01:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy to. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I took care of the trademark-related duplication. Is there another duplicate that needs attention? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:58, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

My remaining To Dos are:

• The Lead
• Take another shot at Products, eliminating the duplication on headphones and adding some of the source material I found
• Per Crisco's feedback, seeing if there is more to add on the Candlestick Park sponsorship
• GA nominate. Give it a few fresh look-overs while we wait for a GA reviewer for copyedits

CorporateM (Talk) 14:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

As a GA reviewer, the first things that come to mind when I look at it are:

• Build the lead.....needs to summarize the article
• Would it be feasible to get another image or 2?
• Might that 2nd external link, be more appropriate as a reference?
• 3rd external link doesn't work. Probably an NPR problem/quirk

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

We must have some kind of mind-meld, because I was just noticing the External links. I would just remove them, since all audioholics did is repost a primary source on a lawsuit that was not included in profile stories about Monster's trademark disputes. For the Lead, I got a draft started on the Talk page already that is much more comprehensive and less focused on listing products and divisions. It also complies with WP:LEAD by including major controversies. There are some free images on Flickr, but I think I might just go to a retail outlet and take pictures. I was thinking one picture of a setup where cables can be compared for the Relationship with Retailers section and another of a product. It's almost impossible to find good historical images. Monster has some, but I've been trying to extract copyright permissions from them for months, so I'd rather resort to something I can collect myself. Let me know if those pictures sound ok before I make the trip! CorporateM (Talk) 14:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Just clarifying, I wouldn't be doing the GA review because I'm been substantially editing there; those were just my thoughts from someone who does GA reviews. My first thought would be a picture of the product that they are best known for....speaker cables. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Yah, I know. I asked Crisco if he has time to chime in on the Lead as well and so we can move into article-space if you both agree. CorporateM (Talk) 18:55, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Fine with me, and/or I'd be happy to put it in. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure. There's still quite a bit more ground to cover and any other editor can always provide feedback later. CorporateM (Talk) 19:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

FYI - I took these pictures at a Best Buy. I didn't realize just how dominant Monster was in electronics stores. Each department had a pretty large area devoted to various cables, headphones, etc. I even saw Monster glass cleaner, but didn't spot the elusive Monster mints I read about. While I was there I bought a pair of headphones, but I'm cheap, poor and not an audiophile, so I bought a $20 pair from Sony ;-) Anyways, there is a lot of glare on the packaging and they are not great pictures. I will also see if I can get something from Monster. CorporateM (Talk) 00:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Cool. IMHO the heavy speaker cables are what they are best known for and the one with the reel big in the picture looks nice/ shows it well. Sincerely,

You know... I am somewhat conflicted on whether the other products should be marginalized as much as they are now. After seeing how much of the Best Buy display areas for HDMIs, headphones, and power strips were devoted to Monster products, I sort of came back with a fresh perspective - blatant original research I know. Bah. Anyways, my next big project will probably be on Ron Burkle. It may be a while before I'm ready, but would you be interested in following me there later? CorporateM (Talk) 23:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course your situation is more complicated, but it is not OR to use perspective to create articles. wp:ver/wp:or are a condition for inclusion of material, not for selection of it. In special cases, wp:npov dictates review of sources for inclusion selection. My cautions to you regarding products is that coverage should follow what they are actually known for and sell quantities of, not what business they hope to get into, so please don't interpret those as asking you to shy away from areas that they actually sell. Sincerely, 23:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Yah, falls under WP:COIMICRO RE "exact weight" anyway (I wrote that essay) and Recentism is a common issue with COI. But I don't have any actionable suggestions as a result, just making small talk, because it keeps coming up. CorporateM (Talk) 13:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Rough consensus

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Rough consensus. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 20:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

ac/r edits

Please see [25] NE Ent 01:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Suburban Express

I would ask that you actually investigate CorporateM's false attributions before unconditionally supporting his actions. Examples have been provided, both on the admin noticeboard and in the Talk section of the Suburban Express article. 99.147.28.113 (talk) 17:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I didn't unconditionally support or even support ANY particular actions. What I did say that was that even if the one specific item that you presented happened exactly as you described it, it would be a simple error, not an offense. And very small in comparison to the nasty general attacks against them that you have been making against them. If you have another specific item which you feel is problematic you should describe it and I'd be happy to take a look at that one as well. And I'd be happy to do a general drop-in there and maybe ask a few questions. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussing your reversal of my edit

I will reverse your reversal once. I respectfully ask you not to reverse my reversal (Ref 3RR) in that article until we discuss the matter here in good faith to avoid edit warring. You undid my revision 578617800 (my revision was not a revert) because you think that this is different. It is about an activity / team and does spotlight individuals. Please take a look at this afd [26]. The "vanity publishing" of several pictures of one person were posted in many places. The picture I removed shows that one editor. I believe you will agree with the removal of this picture, like other editors do. Have a nice day. Worldedixor (talk) 02:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I also need your opinion BEFORE I delete this paragraph and other "ego-boasting" content that is nothing more than "patting one self on the back" by the same Wikipedia editor: "In 2012, another Preciosa Sangre student, Diego Grez Cañete, obtained two of the best Cardenal Caro Province scores, specifically 715 points in the Spanish language test, and 714 in the history test.". I have received Magna Cum Laude on my college degree and our class built a car as a class project. Does that make me notable enough to place pictures of me and my pals all over Wikipedia? Worldedixor (talk) 02:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I think that that should clearly be deleted. And overall, I think you are overall on the right track / doing the right thing. But I think that your removal of a picture of the debating team went too far and think that it should be in the article. BTW I had the article on my watch list because I was the GA reviewer for the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

RSN posting for Volokh Conspiracy

I made this posting (1) in relation to the Volokh Conspiracy source, and share it in case you are interested in commenting. Steeletrap (talk) 18:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! North8000 (talk) 18:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Ways to improve Eric W. Morse

Hi, I'm Sulfurboy. North8000, thanks for creating Eric W. Morse!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. 2

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Sulfurboy (talk) 00:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. The article only about 1/2 day old and I'm developing it in article space, so it needs a lot of work. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Audie Murphy

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Audie Murphy. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Usage share of operating systems

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Usage share of operating systems. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 12:12, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 02:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

A cookie for you!

Just wanted to say again how much I appreciate your work to clean out the very oldest GAs from the backlog. I know often those end up there because other editors feel they're in some way problematic; I'm glad we've got someone with your editing chops to take them on. -- Khazar2 (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I usually grab the oldest ones in fairness to those have been waiting the longest. (Which is pretty long right now). The type I'll take includes the heaviest real-world topics and the more obscure ones, which some tend to avoid. It's an adventure, I never know what I'll be learning next! Thanks again. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Very cool. I'm trying to get better about doing the same, though I often suffer from debilitating Shiny Penny Syndrome, i.e., "Oooh, someone just nominated a song I heard once in high school!" Anyway, keep up the good work, it's much appreciated! - Khazar2 (talk) 02:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Randy Blythe manslaughter case

Thank you very much for the review of the article. This is my first GA. Very encouraging! Best, Cimmerian praetor (talk) 06:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Happy to do it. A well done article, and interesting to read. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:39, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

draft idea ID

Just playing around at this stage, but maybe you can help decide if it is worth continuing this line of thought? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andrew_Lancaster/ID_RfC_draft . For now, I shall also drop a line to Garamond Lethe who has also proposed RfC ideas. I appreciate that my idea is different from previous ones. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll put my draft there as well. Your idea looks more thorough than mine but might be too complicated? (also could clarify which items is "1c"? My one big critique is to not move a step backwards, and even the other "side" is not asking for that. The narrowest version under consideration is "purporting to be science"' and not the narrower "ID movement". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Could I ask again for more feedback on this draft RfC. I am certainly not confident about how to get the best type of discussion. After looking around at examples myself I see it is rather complex, but I also see no escape from that given the situation on the talkpage where the two arguments which constantly reappear are that everything has been argued before already and there is no point discussing it unless there is an RfC first. I can see that a simplistic RfC will achieve exactly what has happened in the past: nothing. The question will then be how to apply that decision (the same as we currently have constant discussions about how to apply policy, how to use sources etc, all being deflected by the we discussed it before and raise an RfC types of posts). Is there a forum anywhere which gives advice on how to handle a complex RfC discussion?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Will do. I'll answer there. North8000 (talk) 15:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 17:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Yelp

Did you want me to keep going with other stuff? or were you still working on the controversy? Also, what do you think about the date corrections I mentioned? CorporateM (Talk) 13:59, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

To me the rest of the article looked fine to me except for that one section. Also the open question of whether addition of images is feasible. That's a GA criteria "if possible"'. So "no" is fine as along as it's addressed. As I noted when I split the material in that one section I left it in a state where it needs more work. Tidying up, and possible a few overview/introductory sentences.

Those date changes look pretty straightforward. North8000 (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

2A Response

Left a response here. Regards. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 18:57, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Windows 8

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Windows 8. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 00:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

A pie for you!

Thank you for voting to unblock me. I appreciate your wise reasoning. MarshalN20 | Talk 14:50, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Fair is fair. IMO there could be no reasonable expectation that one would consider that to be in the scope. North8000 (talk) 00:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Alejandro García Padilla

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Alejandro García Padilla. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:04, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 15:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

GAN December 2013 Backlog Drive

Hello! A GAN Backlog Drive will begin in less than 4 days! In past Backlog Drives, the goal was to reduce the backlog of Good article nominations. In the upcoming drive, another goal will be added - raising as much money as we can for the Wikimedia Foundation. How will this work? Well, its pretty simple. Any user interested in donating can submit a pledge at the Backlog Drive page (linked above). The pledge should mention the amount of money the user is willing to donate per review. For example, if a user pledges 5 cents per review and 100 nominations are reviewed, the total donation amount is $5.00. At the time this message was sent out, two users have submitted pledges for a total of 8 cents per review. All pledges, no matter how much money, are greatly appreciated. Also, in no way is this saying you must make a pledge. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or leave a message on the Backlog Drive talk page. And remember, there are less than 4 days before the drive starts!--EdwardsBot (talk) 03:18, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on an RfC about Living members of deposed royal families and the titles attributed to them on WP

Hello - I have opened an RfC about suggested guidelines in the Manual of Style for articles about living members of families whose ancestors were deposed as monarchs of various countries and the titles and "styles" attributed to these living people, at the moment often in a misleading and inaccurate way in my opinion. Please join in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies "Use of royal "Titles and styles" and honorific prefixes in articles and templates referring to pretenders to abolished royal titles and their families"[27]Regards,Smeat75 (talk) 06:01, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

re: Concordat of 1925 GA review

Sorry, I forgot about it; even through I had that paged watched. In the future, when you leave a comment, it may encourage forgetful people like myself to reply quicker if you WP:ECHO them. I should be able to take a look at your comments tomorrow. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Cool. At the time of my earlier posts it appeared there was already active engagement. Also, until after the time gap I didn't figure out who is who as your signature is different than your user name, and you user name is what is on the edit summaries and I think the GA submittal. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:33, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Sex Pistols

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Sex Pistols. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 01:26, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

GAN December 2013 Backlog Drive

Hello! Just a friendly reminder that the GAN Backlog Drive has begun and will end on December 31, 2013! If you know anyone outside of the WikiProject that may be interested, feel free to invite them to the drive! If you have any questions or want to comment about something regarding the drive, post them here--EdwardsBot (talk) 00:11, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

ExactTarget

I figure it's unlikely anyone has this page watchlisted, or that there have been any active editors on the page besides the company itself, so I thought I would see if you were interested in taking a look at my draft I shared on the Talk page. I'm mostly cleaning up prior COI editing and bringing a promotional article more in-line with Wikipedia's standards for a small software company. Pretty easy little article. CorporateM (Talk) 21:23, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy to. Will do. North8000 (talk) 22:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring your comments on the Monster page. I just figured I would wait for the GA reviewer to see your comments and tell me to make them. I'm not sure why, but it seems a little closer to the "BrightLine(ish)" approach when a GA reviewer tells me to make an edit to pass the criteria, then to act on a comment on the Talk page - it sort of falls somewhere between non-controversial edits like spelling, grammar and citation formatting and the type of thing that is worth the bother of a Request Edit. CorporateM (Talk) 15:55, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

To be honest I made the comments (as a non-acting GA reviewer) just as hopefully-helpful feedback and didn't watch as to whether or not you acted on them. I have the page watched and when I saw the transclusion edit I looked there and noticed all of the typos in my previous post and fixed them, hence my recent "attention" to the talk page. If you haven't added that info and wish to, if you tell me what those divisions do I'd be happy to make the edits. But this is not a hint that you should so......so (of course) just do whatever you think is best. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Yah, you are definitely spot-on. I get the same feedback in GA reviews a lot where I do not explain the context enough for readers to understand what I'm saying. I expect similar feedback on History of public relations once I get it ready for the GA review to continue. The GA reviewer didn't pick it up, so I'll put something together for a Request Edit. CorporateM (Talk) 02:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I just wanted to check-in on the ExactTarget article. I know it's difficult to compare the current article to the proposed. At the same time, it's not practical to go through edits one at a time. Let me know if I can help some way. In the meanwhile, thanks for your continued participation on the Monster page. It sounds like it is probably GA ready then and I was just being too hard on myself - I'll see what the reviewer says. CorporateM (Talk) 06:00, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot about it. I had it watched and there were no edits to remind me. Looks good! I put it in. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Response

North8000, I responded to your comment on my talk page. I don't understand what you're saying, so please clarify there. Thanks! -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 19:56, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Cool. I wrote there. North8000 (talk) 20:29, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 04 December 2013

• Traffic report: Kennedy shot Who

• Recent research: Reciprocity and reputation motivate contributions to Wikipedia; indigenous knowledge and "cultural imperialism"; how PR people see Wikipedia

• Discussion report: Musical scores, diversity conference, Module:Convert, and more

• News and notes: One decade of Wikisource; FDC recommendations raise serious questions

• WikiProject report: Electronic Apple Pie

• Featured content: F*&!

• Arbitration report: Ottoman Empire–Turkey naming dispute case opens; New discretionary sanctions draft proposal available for review

• Read this Signpost in full
• Single-page
• Unsubscribe
• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You can't be serious. Want to get me some specifics from the recent discussion there that you are referring to? And take a look at Goetheans there including a whole slew a false accusations, and zero false accusations by me. North8000 (talk) 23:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Libertarianism

User:Goethean left a note on my talk page asking me to take a look at a number of your edits on Talk:Libertarianism. I have taken a look at both his diffs and the overall context of the discussions and am concerned. It appears that your tone has not radically changed from the last time I took a serious look at your editing behavior. The same issues are there – a failure to assume good faith, a negative tone, disparagement, and perhaps most common of all, a failure to look back to the sources and instead argue for one's own point of view. If this editing style does not change, I will block your account. NW (Talk) 22:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

You can't be serious. Want to get me some specifics from the recent discussion there that you are referring to? And while you're at it take a look at Goethean's there including a whole slew a false accusations, and zero false accusations by me. Better yet take a look at my last 100 or 500 edits everywhere. North8000 (talk) 23:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Goethean's complaint about "personal attacks" and "incivility" is completely frivolous and did not merit any sort of action. It is obvious enough that Goethean went to an admin with similar political views with the hope said admin would be amenable to taking action. These do not seem like the actions of someone truly distraught at being "personally attacked" and more like a shrewd political maneuver by someone wanting to get an opponent sanctioned. You should not be enabling Goethean's behavior.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Goethean said nothing about political views, but did show diffs of personal attacks, as well as the warnings made in response. Claiming this is political is itself a violation of WP:AGF. Worse, you're accusing not only Goethean but also NW, where the latter has shown only scrupulous fairness. MilesMoney (talk) 06:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think that an actual review of the article history in question (the relevant part being basically some back and forth edits on the last sentence in the lead a few days ago, and the titled section on the talk page)(and I invite adding a review of my last 100 or 500 edits regarding the overall impugnment by NW) would/will will show that the comments made by Goethean, NW and Miles are absolutely wrong, and in Goethen's case, "absolutely wrong" is putting it charitably considering their behavior towards me. North8000 (talk) 14:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

My apologies for missing this earlier. As you might imagine, the edits that I was referring to in my initial post were some from Goethean's link, as well as some from Talk:Libertarianism#Changes in lead regarding US Libertarian Party. NW (Talk) 02:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

NW, you already said that general statement. When I looked at what you referred to (Goethens's his diffs) neither half was what he said it was. The second half (his "warnings") were actually personal attacks. That is why I asked for specifics on what you feel merited your post. Or we can just consider it old history at this point. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:03, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Peter Sellers

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Peter Sellers. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 12:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps a decision on Blowing from a gun will be made?

Hi there! Have you considered to make a final decision on the GA Review of Blowing from a gun? If you haven't noted it, take a look at how I have comprised and heavily re-edited the "Rituals and Perceptions" section, due to a comment by an administrator-user.Arildnordby (talk) 14:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy to. As I indicated, I felt it was in good-enough shape even before the last changes. You indicated an intention to do some rework and I was watching the talk & review pages for some indication that you finished what you intended to do. North8000 (talk) 15:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

As it is, there are two issues that I might expound upon in the future. The first is a more in-depth treatment of the perceptions and attitudes natives in British India (in particular the victims) had of "being blown from a gun" (there are, for example, some religious issues involved not mentioned in original article prior to your role as reviewer), the second issue being a fuller treatment of the 1857-1859 rebellion (in particular, not just the year 1857 is of relevance, but the period 1857-1859, plus several cases where the Brits became convinced that women and children were blown from guns might be referenced) . However, I regard those two issues as comparatively minor, allowable to insert in a "Good Article", rather than being preconditions of that status. Besides, at this particular moment, I am "bored" with the article subject, projecting the inclusion of those two issues into the undetermined future. Thus, on a foreseeable time scale, I regard the article as finished from my part, submitting it to your GA decision.Arildnordby (talk) 23:05, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Nice work and will do. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for a conscientious review!Arildnordby (talk) 11:22, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library Survey

As a subscriber to one of The Wikipedia Library's programs, we'd like to hear your thoughts about future donations and project activities in this brief survey. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi ^{t | c} 15:38, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, North8000. You have new messages at GregJackP's talk page.
Message added 02:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

GregJackP Boomer! 02:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Thanks for the heads up. I answered there....no hurry, I go waay slower than the bot said :-), even more so in view of your absence. North8000 (talk) 15:06, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

BP article RfC

I have started an RfC on the BP article and would welcome a response from you. I am sending this message to all users who have edited that page. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:14, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Did it. North8000 (talk) 11:43, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 11 December 2013

• Traffic report: Deaths of Mandela, Walker top the list

• In the media: Edward Snowden a "hero"; German Wikipedia court ruling

• News and notes: Wiki Loves Monuments—winners announced

• WikiProject report: WikiProject Wine

• Interview: Wikipedia's first Featured Article centurion

• Featured content: Viewer discretion advised

• Technology report: MediaWiki 1.22 released

• Read this Signpost in full
• Single-page
• Unsubscribe
• EdwardsBot (talk) 05:25, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Sängerfest

Thank you for the GA review. I have now moved Saengerfest to Sängerfest, and the review link is now a red link on the talk page. Do you know how I can fix that? — Maile (talk) 13:11, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Nice article! So the GA status is well deserved. I'll have a look. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I fixed it. The review page also had to get moved and I did that. North8000 (talk) 14:40, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all your time and help on this. — Maile (talk) 14:41, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Cough medicine

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Cough medicine. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 02:25, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Secret access code for spying

Please redact immediately. That is dangerous information if it gets into the wrong hands. Heh. --Onorem (talk) 13:33, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

. :-)  :-) Yes! North8000 (talk) 14:38, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Gun control RFC

As you were involved in a previous discussion on this topic, I am notifying you of a new RFC on this topic. Talk:Gun_control#Authoritarianism_and_gun_control_RFC

Gaigin, thanks for the heads up. North8000 (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:BP

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:BP. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:02, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. North8000 (talk) 02:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 18 December 2013

• WikiProject report: Babel Series: Tunisia on the French Wikipedia

• Traffic report: Hopper to the top

• Discussion report: Usernames, template data and documentation, Main page, and more

• News and notes: Nine new arbitrators announced

• Featured content: Triangulum, the most boring constellation in the universe

• Technology report: Introducing the GLAMWikiToolset

• Read this Signpost in full
• Single-page
• Unsubscribe
• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello, North8000. You have new messages at Template_talk:Duplication#Should_this_template_exist.3F.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Barnstar code errors

There is a code error when you give barnstars like [28] and [29]. The ending |} isn't on its own line and then it doesn't work. The table isn't closed and the following posts become part of the barnstar, for example in [30]. How are you awarding the barnstars? The source code at {{The Original Barnstar}} looks right to me. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I think that I thought that the code being on is own line was an error that I introduced (an extra line break) and took it out. I'll have to make sure that I understand and go check / fix the ones that I did. North8000 (talk) 18:35, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Good. As Help:Table#Pipes syntax tutorial says: "The entire table is encased with curly brackets and a vertical bar character (a pipe). So use {| to begin a table, and |} to end it. Each one needs to be on its own line". PrimeHunter (talk) 21:46, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, now I just learned that a Barnstar is a table. Thanks even more. North8000 (talk) 21:57, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Tables are a very common way to format content in html so many tables only have one cell. Things in a box are usually a table and lots of Wikipedia templates produce a one-cell table. The barnstar code displays the table syntax because it's substituted. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:33, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank You for defending the community and what Wikipedia stands for

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		Thank you for your help in defending the spirit of Wikipedia. You're always here. Thank you! Justanonymous (talk) 22:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I try. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:50, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Automation edits

Hi, I am new to editing Wikipedia. So please be kind. I am trying to contribute Automation Master to the open source community. I have thousands of lines of code and hundreds of pages of documentation to contribute. Much of which is in outdated formats which must be converted. As I juggle this task, I try to place the appropriate information in places as I find them. It may not be complete and may seem a little self-promotional, as some is copied and pasted from sales oriented literature. If you find my edits too self-promotional, please correct them. The Automation Master page is just started. I have yet to convert and publish much supporting documentation and track down references to existing papers and articles - all while learning proper Wikipedia technique and etiquette. How should I proceed? Reverse your edits? Ask you to reverse and modify them to be suitable? Try again later? Thanks, Max

Hello Max,

I have a lot of emphathy for new editors that are first dealing with Wikipedia and like helping them. To give you a thoughtful and helpful answer (which I want to do) will take more time than I have at the moment. But the 30,000' view / starting point is sort of what I posted at your article. The first question is whether or not it should have an article in Wikipedia. In short, in that area, Wikipedia is not a place to try to gain attention for great new ideas, it is a place that covers those that have already gained attention. And Wikipedia's "yardstick" for this is the is WP:Notability. In short, if there is substantial coverage of your topic in a couple of published independent sources (bare minimum of one might get by) then you should put those into the article as references. If not, you should probably delete the article. (Sometimes being helpful involves being direct / honest). And I'd recommend getting the article established (and including that) before you start linking it at multiple prominent articles as you have been doing.......leave that for later, because that would put your article triply under the magnifying glass early in the process. Again this is short because I'm short on time at the moment; I'd be happy to converse or try to help more. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:23, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, of course I have the chicken and the egg problem. I am retiring and want to put Automation Master in the public domain. I expected that in the intervening years since it was last actively pursued someone would have supplanted it with newer technology. They have not and in going through the mountains of documentation (The Operator's Manual is 500 pages) I realize what a unique experience that George and I had when we developed it. There is nothing like it in existence and I hate to simply throw away the thousands of hours of development and documentation. I am currently going through the documentation (written in an obsolete word processor in CP437) converting it to UTF-8 and then using LibreOffice to return all of the styles, table of contents and indices's formatting.

As I go, I am trying to put general information into Wikipedia, coding details into Sourceforge, and documents that need to be published in Internet Archives. In going through related articles, partly to see how the Wikipedia is organized and partly to steal coding solutions, whenever I ran across an article that was directly related to Automation Master, I tried to insert a short paragraph and link. Whenever, I found an article that was tangential, I put a link in the "See Also" section.

I will cease putting links in other articles for a while per your suggestion. I would hate to see my article deleted before it is even finished. Would you please monitor the Automation Master article and give your input and suggestions. I am in Spain at the moment and it will be while before I have accesses to storage locker with copies of all of the articles and white papers written on Automation Master and its predecessor. I put in all of the cites that I found with Google.

Merry Christmas and thanks again - Max — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxhitchens (talk • contribs) 15:53, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Re: "You picked a complicated area to start!" The only simple thing that I have done in my life was retire, live on a boat, and travel the world for 15 years. Of course now, I have 15 years of added complexity to assimilate. :) Maxhitchens (talk) 16:53, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Paul Ryan

Greetings, Would you be willing to help enforce the consensus regarding the lead at this article? Thanks very much. CFredkin (talk) 23:39, 24 December 2013 (UTC)