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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Bad content about health effects of food

• Bodhi Peace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The entire thrust of their editing about food. They do OKish if it is just about food (e.g. this editto Ketchup or but when it comes to health effects they go off the rails, especially if it is about "functional foods" or "superfoods" or any of that crap that the internet is full of.

If you look at this person's talk page you will see warning after warning for bad editing about alt-health foods. (they just delete stuff, so you have to look at the history).

I tried to have a discussion with them -- see here -- and they wrote But the short of it is that I am not employed or receiving compensation from any company involved in the space... but as of yet it remains an interest and a hobby of trying exotic foods with purported health claims. I am also potentially seeking to create new products out of so-called beneficial ingredients and so to get to the bottom of any health claims and to understand why marketing is or is not false. I suppose some of my recent edits were a bit of a statement made against any existing conservative bias I see in the article. I feel that it can be explained how things are marketed without selling it on wikipedia. I may have to take my edits elsewhere on the web, but now with your latest revert I feel you lost some critically useful information: that superfoods often pick out omega 3, antioxidants, etc. The "economics" section is a mess and moreover, with the discussion of the marketing of bananas, I see that may be outside the narrow scope of a "superfood" article and more towards the marketing of "health foods". I come to the article to understand why the superfood label is used and what it means and the article is lacking examples.

I replied: I think it is great that you are trying to understand the market for "superfoods" on a very practical level and want to share your learning in WP as you go. I do this sort of thing all the time, as well. There is just a very fine between describing accepted knowledge about the market and how people have been addressing and growing the market, and replicating the hype within that market..... you are crossing over into the latter a bit much

They have continued unabated. Some sample diffs:

• edit to Sugar substitute
• creating Category:Health drinks defined as "Drinks that promote health". Dogshit health food marketing.
• 1st set of edits to Kombucha; toning down dangers, emphasizing potential benefits. Adding unsourced/badly souced content.
• 2nd set of edits to Kombucha, more aggressively citing putative health benefits using bad sources
• 3rd set of edits to Kombucha, adding a bunch of brand spam via images.
• 1st set of edits to Chocolate with badly sourced health content
• 2nd set of edits to Chocolate, as before but now just blowing off sources altogether
• 3rd to Chocolate (see bottom-most, same as before)
• 4th to Chocolate, better in parts but still bringing in primary sources and unsourced
• 5th and 6th to Chocolate, still with the unsourced content.

There is too much work to do here in WP, to be cleaning up after somebody who is this aggressive and who ignores MEDRS so persistently and willfully, and even when they do pay it some mind, skews the content in a marketing way.

Please topic ban this person from editing about food and health. (I don't know how to tailor it more narrowly). I thought about doing this more narrowly to just health (so they could still do edits like the potato one) but I don't want to waste people's time further or get into the boundary issues of "nutrients". So let's be done with this. Jytdog (talk) 01:57, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

User Bodhi Peace seems particularly vulnerable to accepting spam, marketing or personal experience as the basis for changing content on several food and health articles, and has often cited healthline.com as a source (it is a multiauthor, non-expert blog, remote from WP:MEDRS). This talk edit is an example of where a childhood observation led to several reverts and source checks. Each of the user's edits has to be monitored for fact and quality of source, often resulting in reversion or rewrites, and finding a quality source. Rarely does the interaction feel collaborative and productive. I support the topic ban. --Zefr (talk) 02:47, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

A ban from "Health and nutrition, broadly construed", perhaps? It seems such a thing is needed, since they've proven unable to take polite advice. Icarosaurvus (talk) 03:21, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I am just passing by this thread, being completely unfamiliar with the situation; however, I do want to interject here on a minor issue, since I have witnessed this become a rather contentious ambiguity in at least one prior topic ban of a user. Namely, it may be important to explicate whether "health and nutrition" here is restricted to human health and nutrition or includes the much broader interpretation of animals (organisms?) more generally. This seems mainly limited to human matters, but it may be best to clarify that now before it serves as a potential problem in the future.

For the record, I maintain no position on the topic ban or this issue, since I am not involved in this issue and have not evaluated it whatsoever. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 05:24, 5 September 2018 (UTC); last edited at 05:37, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

If a topic ban is necessary, and I am not convinced of that yet because parts of the edits seem okay, perhaps constraining it to adding primary sources and information based on primary sources to medical articles would be adequate. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 05:44, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

It's that "parts of the edits seem okay" which makes it such a time-sink for other editors to fix, as teasing out source misrepresentations takes a lot of time. The fact there is no proper engagement on the Talk page makes it worse. Alexbrn (talk) 06:20, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

• I support this ban, with some appropriate time limit, as I too have had to waste time reviewing and fixing this editor's work in this area. They mean well, but have simply not grasped the requirements for writing about health and nutrition related matters in an encyclopedic manner, and certainly not in accord with WP:MEDRS. (The ban should include animal related matters as well, having had to fix some material on dogs and chocolate.) However, I think they are capable of learning, given some time. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:31, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support for at least some months, this is into WP:CIR territory given the number of warnings. Guy (Help!) 13:49, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I see no attempt by the proposer to engage the editor and explain at the talk page of the three articles Sugar substitute, Kombucha and Chocolate why these edits are so problematic. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:07, 5 September 2018 (UTC) [revised 13:21, 6 September 2018 (UTC)]
  • Err, of those articles I've looked just at Kombucha and there has been a fairly obvious attempt[1] at engagement. [Response to amended comment by David Tornheim – and what on earth would the identity of the OP have to do with the merits of the proposal to topic-ban Bohdi Peace? That should be decided on the evidence ... Unless this is a way of continuing a long-standing grudge you have against the OP, which would be unhelpful to everybody else here.] Alexbrn (talk) 20:08, 5 September 2018 (UTC); amended 15:12, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I looked at the first edit of the long list:

edit to Sugar substitute

This edit adds substantially new content to a high-profile article which has not been removed or even challenged at the article. If it is so problematic that it is the first on the list as justification for topic-banning, then why has the content not been removed and discussed on the talk page of the article before coming here? If the content cannot be contested, this suggests a reason to not topic-ban the editor. I went to Kombucha and Chocolate and saw the OP did not try to raise objections at the article before coming here to raise them. (I had not noticed that other editors have raised objections about the edits at Kombucha and Chocolate. On that I stand corrected.) The lists of warnings on Bodhi Peace's talk page are indeed concerning, particularly the responses here. Ultimately, because of the diff provided at Sugar substitute, my feeling is that we need to work with the editor first in correcting issues. A request that the editor "slow down" before adding new content might be in order as well. But topic-banning seems extreme without first working with the editor. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

As everybody else is saying, they don't engage on Talk. In your haste to disagree with Jytdog you are enabling a problem editor IMO. Alexbrn (talk) 06:44, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

"[T]hey don't engage on Talk." That's clearly not true, as you well know, because Bodhi Peace responded directly to concerns you and another editor raised in this discussion at Kombucha. Bodhi Peace even conceded to a requested change with "I don't exactly know what you are getting at so go ahead and make the edit." diff That seems pretty reasonable.

Additionally, Bodhi Peace responded at the talk page of Chocolate here. After being accused of using blogs, Bodhi Peace replied, "All that information on chocolate poisoning in pets was copy/pasted, cut, summarized, etc. from theobromine poisoning." diff

--David Tornheim (talk) 10:10, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

They respond but they don't "engage" - the edit then continuing on. Alexbrn (talk) 12:04, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

• And at Talk:Chocolate#Theobromine poisoning. Kendall-K1 (talk) 04:23, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

• Off topic question Am I the only one who just drinks Kombucha because I think it's delicious and doesn't care about the supposed health benefits? Simonm223 (talk) 13:25, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

@Simonm223: Do you mean actual kombucha or black-tea mushroom? (笑) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I think the plain old undiluted tea-mushroom kind of kombucha is quite delicious, although I'm doubtful of the health claims and don't have it much since it's hard to make... Never had kelp tea; didn't know it was a thing until seeing it here :P —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}｜✝️｜they/their｜😹｜T/C｜☮️｜John 15:12｜🍂 01:06, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Goldenshimmer: The word kombucha (Wikipedia's style guidelines favour the more modern spelling konbucha) literally means "kelp tea" in Japanese; it's a mystery why the unrelated fungal growth in black tea (which the Chinese and Japanese call "red tea") is referred to misleadingly with the Japanese word for kelp tea, but the difference is distinct enough that I suspect I probably could have gotten away with editing the "kombucha" article while subject to a "Japanese culture" TBAN. Anyway, for those of us with a loose familiarity with Japanese tea traditions, who first heard about so-called "kombucha" as a result of Wikipedia disputes (I guess the fad hadn't caught on in Ireland before I left?), the distinction is somewhat amusing. :P Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: Huh! Cool, never knew all that before. I was aware that "kombu" is something seaweedy, and "cha" means tea, but hadn't made the connection (don't think I would even have thought of "kombucha" as being a Japanese-derived word, since I learned it as an English word before I learned its Japanese constituent of "cha"...) ^~^ —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}｜✝️｜they/their｜😹｜T/C｜☮️｜John 15:12｜🍂 04:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The kind I buy at the farmer's market probably ultimately descends from the black tea mushroom variant. But it's basically a thoroughly modern fermented tea beverage. ;) Simonm223 (talk) 16:37, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

• I have experience with this editor on Ted Kaczynski. Some of their edits are useful but it is time consuming to review and fix the not-so-useful contributions. Edits such as this, changing the parameter "days between" (something I challenged but was reverted) to "time between" in order to give data such as "~1 year" and "~1 1/2 years" alongside data such as "2 years 317 days" and "6 years 123 days", just confuse me. None of their edits individually are that bad but it is a persistent pattern where they will need to be reviewed and retouched. To my knowledge, they have not added any referenced material to the article so it is particularly frustrating when you are having to review copyediting. There also are edits such as this, which was explicitly argued against shortly before on the talk page, with no response on the talk page or rationale for addition. In my opinion, they either edit on a whim without much care to the result or Guy's assessment is accurate. Hrodvarsson (talk) 03:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I was aware of their editing on other topics like Kaczysnki but had not looked at them. I was hoping they were better. Apparently not. Jytdog (talk) 14:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support indef block User was subject to an indef block six months ago, then a few days later accepted a conditional unblock.[2][3] In the subsequent months, they have violated their unblock condition 35 times (Ctrl+F this for "Tag: New redirect"). It's also unfortunate to see David Tornheim still advocating for NOTHERE editors; I would suggest also TBANning David from AN/ANI/AE discussions in which he is not involved. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:15, 9 September 2018 (UTC) (Edited 01:44, 9 September 2018 (UTC))

Can we TBAN someone from administrative pages though? From my understanding TBANing was about articles not Wikipedia processes. Sakura Cartelet^Talk 00:39, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

It's definitely been done. Banning someone from a prescribed DR process is really a no-go, so my initial wording was problematic (I've now fixed it); DT's involvement in ANI threads over the last eighteen months or so (going back, as far as I know, to his highly questionable actions here, which resulted in this mess -- someone who proposed mandatory mentoring as preferable to an indef block, and volunteered himself as the mentor, should never be allowed get away with saying please continue this discussion elsewhere... thanks... when a third party asks them to rein their mentee in, and I think NeilN would have been within his rights to immediately place the indef-block that had not been imposed previously on the sole condition that DT do the mentoring and EC listen to it) has been to undermine the process as revenge for his having been TBANned from GMOs and almost immediately blocked for ignoring said TBAN. Actually, his suddenly showing back up on ANI now comes across as a bit HOUNDish given his history with Jytdog (which, for the sake of full disclosure, I found out about by Ctrl+Fing Jytdog's name on the DT TBAN entry, and noticed him quasi-GRAVEDANCing on Jytdog for having been TBANned by ArbCom from the same topic area the previous year; I actually didn't know Jtydog was subject to a TBAN when I started typing this, else I probably wouldn't have brought up DT's own TBAN from the same topic area). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:44, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

A one-way interaction ban might be the way to go with respect to David's hounding problems. I haven't bothered opening a case at AE for David's recent topic ban violations (most other people that did have to deal with his issues in the past can easily ignore him now due to his topic ban), but this seems to be a bit of a loose end from the GMO stuff. I don't think this is the best venue for that avenue though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: Continuing to hound the editors who "got him banned" would almost certainly be taken as violating the spirit, if not the letter, of the ban (which was meant to stem, not intensify, disruption). I'm wondering if a community indef block isn't called for at this point, especially given how little of his time seems to go into building the encyclopedia (120 mainspace edits in the last year) compared to the drahma he seems to cause. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:58, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

As it has been proposed, I also support an indefinite block. Hrodvarsson (talk) 22:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support indef block. I would have been more prone to a health content topic ban, but the problems Hijiri 88 brought up compound the issue. This editor was already on a short rope. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support indef block. The case for a CIR indef is already overwhelming, per the OP and Hrodvarsson, and per the previous issue regarding the endless spamming of dubious redirects, which apparently continues via AFC/R (ironically, according to a user who awarded them a redirect barnstar—"a lot of your requests get declined or don't survive AFD"—not even the competence issue that has already led to an indef has improved). Unbelievably, the user has completely failed to even address this AN/I thread, demonstrating that they're unwilling to understand and to be accountable for their disruption. And, that's not even getting into the fact that, as evidenced by Hijiri, the user has been egregiously violating the editing restriction that allowed them to return from their previous indef. I see absolutely no reason we should continue to invest volunteer resources into this straightforward CIR case. Swarm ♠ 22:39, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose or Partial support. I suppose I will come here to oppose the proposed topic ban of the editor in question, which is me and the topic is "food and health". I don't know how these proceedings work for the most part, so I avoided discussion and have not read the comments until this moment. The reason I avoided reading or commenting is that I partly desired the break from editing, but more because I wanted to avoid conflict and was trying to assume that the issue was going to be resolved in a short amount of time (1-2 days). I am suprised at the number of comments from different parties. I do need to slow down with some edits of the food and health topics, so I would support a one to two week ban on those topics, however it is mostly the intersection of those two topics that brings me into conflicts with other editors. I don't know how a topic ban is administered and enforced or how the scope is defined, whether technically or through agreement. I am starting to work hard towards making constructive edits by restraining myself from some idiosyncracies that are not within the style guidelines, and realizing when creativity isn't appropriate.
  • I may as well address the edits in question.
    • Sugar substitute: All I did was sort the types by heading alphabetically and add the type "sugar alcohols".
    • Category:Health drinks: I am not very good at some categories, but I can see this is not encyclopedic, just something that is vague and could encompass many different marketing claims, such that the category would not withstand the scrutiny of other editors. In my desire to quickly categorize drinks with health claims, I should have looked for a different method than the category system.
    • Kombucha: I tried to work towards WP:NPOV because I saw the article didn't bring up minor beneficial attributes, but rather sought to refute the most implausible health claims without even mentioning "probiotic" or given examples of those health claims in the lede. I came into conflict with other editors and have bad experiences occasionally on some articles so we began to resolve the disagreement through edits rather than on the talk page. I went to the talk page, but was not quite sure what one editor was getting at so I left the article for a while. The conflict was mostly about how to phrase a 2003 review they cited as a recommendation against the drink, as well as using certain language in portraying the tone ("some", "implausible", etc.). I added images of bottled kombucha drinks sold commercially because that is commonly how it is consumed at least where I live in the US, and I would appreciate it if someone could point out the policy on that issue because, e.g. the lemonade article shows a commercial brand's label.
    • Chocolate: The conflict arose because I saw the article either didn't mention or adequately address the compounds "caffeine" and "theobromine". I directly stated that they could be stimulating but User:Zefr came to say that it was an issue of dosage and pointed me to WP:MEDRS on this. I was stubborn on the issue of theobromine poisoning because of what I had heard and a quick Internet search provided, but you can see on Talk:Chocolate that I engaged in discussion. I can see that I needed to be more level-headed when starting to write some of edits on those stimulating compounds, because, as Zefr said, it is a matter of dose and portraying facts about those compounds can yield BIAS if not backed by the relative dose and amounts.
    • Most of all the redirects I made through WP:AFCRD, but I made some that I thought were unambiguous e.g. anti-nutritional and Konbucha
      • Bod (talk) 06:25, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support indef block. I can't believe somebody who was unblocked on certain conditions six months ago, and who has been diligently violating those conditions ever since, is still editing here. You say you only made "some" redirects, Bodhi Peace? Compare Hijiri's recommendation to Ctrl+F this for "Tag: New redirect". That doesn't look like "some" to me. Also, the condition for your unblock was that you don't create any new redirects. As for the comments above about David Tornheim, yes, the community can certainly ban a user from one, several, or all noticeboards if that user is persistently unhelpful there. If people believe the cap fits David Tornheim, I suggest they open a separate thread about it. Bishonen | talk 17:59, 12 September 2018 (UTC).

• FYI, searching for mw-new-redirect in the tag filter may help in viewing. Blackmane (talk) 00:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@Blackmane: While that is a useful trick, as I told another editor on my talk page, the egregiousness actually comes across more clearly when you search for it the old-fashioned way (yeah, I know tags aren't "old", but if it wasn't for the tags I would have have said Ctrl+F for edit summaries that include "redirect"), since it shows 35 redirects against only four mainspace page creations that aren't redirects. Bodhi doesn't appear to be under a TBAN from writing new articles, and while it would likely not be a valid exception to create useful redirects for variant names of the topics of new articles created, an argument could be made that it should be an exception; the fact that this is not the case is highlighted by the fact that Bodhi hasn't been creating new articles. (Also @Bishonen: While checking this, I noticed that the new redirect tag is automatically placed on the original titles of pages Bodhi moved, which I think probably is a legitimate exception: the actual number is 29, not 35. Still more than "a few", mind you.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I accepted the conditions on March 11 2018 and realized that I had a problem with creating redirects and would stop. I did stop. I didn't create any new redirects without WP:AFCRD for over 5 months. On August 12, I created the first actual real redirect (Red Bluff, Montana) and as you searched for some others that I thought were uncontroversial. The vast majority of redirects were done through WP:AFCRD and I was even awarded a "Redirect Barnstar" for having mastered the art of creating helpful redirects. That issue has not been brought up independently of my conflicts with other editors over the intersection of food and health.

So you decided after five months that you no longer wanted to abide by your TBAN, and in the month thence you have violated it on a daily basis. And The Duke of Nonsense (talk · contribs), a sock of a troll, decided to thank you for doing so. That you would make such an argument in your own defense shows that you are either trying to mislead the community or are simply too dense to be allowed to continue editing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I didn't have a TBAN, if I understand what that means; I had a redirect ban. I have not violated it daily. It seems you want to play politics and I don't really want to play that game. I realize inherently there will be a political side to wikipedia, but I prefer rather to do stick to editing. I don't know that user (again a political thing) until I saw that they thought they made a mistake on their talk page regarding me. I'm not really even bringing a defense but I have to say something because it was mentioned. It doesn't even have to do with the issue at hand. Bod (talk) 18:01, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

You have a TBAN from redirects. Yes, that is a "redirect ban" as you put it, but it is still a TBAN. Even so, let's just say it's not. So you don't have a TBAN. You have a redirect ban. And I would argue that this sure looks a whole lot like a redirect, as well as this, this, and this. Yes, "daily" may be a slight exaggeration, but that doesn't mean you have a free pass to ignore editing restrictions. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 19:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, after 6 months, I should have officially appealed to have the TBAN from redirects removed. Bod (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Then why didn't you? Waiting five months (not six) before beginning to ignore your TBAN is asking to have your block reinstated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:41, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Comment Frankly, I would still like to be able to occasionally edit food articles, especially to structure and grammar fix, without introducing a lot of new material. I would accept a time-limited ban on rewriting or adding new information specifically related to the health or nutrition in food-categorized articles. Over that time period I could observe and learn generally how edits are made to those sections. I could also promise to only use the WP:AFCRD mechanism if it is an issue for some editors, which wasn't brought up independently of the current conflict. Finally, I could promise to try to judge and refrain from unorthodox or "confusing" edits as Hrodvarsson brought up on all unrelated articles to the topic-specific ban. But I still would like clarity on the policy of adding images showing commercial products or brand labels to e.g. lemonade. Bod (talk) 16:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

"I could also promise to only use the WP:AFCRD mechanism if it is an issue for some editors, which wasn't brought up independently of the current conflict" Facepalm. You already did promise to do that, after you were indefinitely blocked for spamming bad redirects. There has been a formal editing restriction, logged in your block log and at WP:ER/UC the whole time, which required you to do what you're offering to do. And, as evidenced in this thread, you've been repeatedly violating it. And now all you have to say is "I'll do it if it's an issue." Did the indef block not make it clear that "it is an issue"? This is exactly the type of disruptive lack of competence that makes me support a formal indef. Swarm ♠ 19:30, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Comment Again, for many months I learned to use the process of WP:AFCRD, which can slow you down quite a bit if, for example, you notice a whole bunch of related and interconnected terms that need redirects created for an article you are working on. Obviously I should have gone through the appropriate administrative channels to have the ban lifted. And I still would like policy reference on the use of brand labels and pictures of commercial products on articles, which was part of the aforementioned edits and I have not been referred to any official policy, for example lemonade. Bod (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support TBan but Oppose Site Bansee belowOppose indef block. As an AFCRD regular, I was very surprised an autoconfirmed account was making that many good AFCRD requests. From what I saw, Bod is trying to abide by terms of their TBan, and occasional redirect creations are probably errors. L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:01, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment Thank you very much, I have been trying to use the WP:AFCRD mechanism in order to make new redirects and to only be constructive. For all my efforts, I was quite pleased to receive an award (a barnstar). And to me, at least, it seems like a lot of the people here just enjoy the process of banning people. Bod (talk) 16:23, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
    • No, saying people enjoy banning people is not assuming good faith and the site ban proposers have reasonable arguments for it. I do not believe they are sufficient, though, so I'm opposing. I will also point out that being uncivil on admin boards will hurt your case more than anything else. L293D (☎ • ✎) 19:09, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
      • Thank you again, I will try to be civil. Bod (talk) 19:16, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@L293D: Umm ... who proposed a site ban? I proposed enforcement of Bodhi's already-in-place TBAN. Your comments don't make a whole lot of sense. If someone is subject to an indef block, accepts and unblock condition, and then ignores that condition, it's standard procedure to put them back under the original block, and I can't for the life of me figure out why no admin has done that yet. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:06, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Since you haven't figured it out, then I will tell you: because Bod has made many constructive edits elsewhere. The indef you are always taking about was six months ago. L293D (☎ • ✎) 22:21, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

He was subjected to an indefinite block, and then was unblocked on condition that he accept a binding TBAN indefinitely. He has not successfully appealed that TBAN, and is therefore still subject to it, and on his first infraction (now that it has been noticed) the indef block needs to be restored per the conditions of the unblock. You do not have the authority to "oppose indef block" under these circumstances; you are requesting that the indef block to which he is already subject (and no admin has got around to implementing) be lifted, which is a different procedure. As for whether he is allowed violate his editing restriction with impunity because you think he makes constructive edits elsewhere: NO. That wouldn't be fair to the rest of us who make more constructive edits ("more" here describing both the mass of edits and their level of constructiveness) while still abiding by our TBANs. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:24, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Although you made it fairly clear, the issue has become somewhat muddled because now blocking editing privileges would look like it relates to the conflicts over "food and health", rather than a couple infractions of creating redirects against a TBAN, which wasn't what was brought to the noticeboard. Bod (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

No, it's perfectly normal to, when an editor is brought to a noticeboard for disruptive edits in one area of the project, examine their record in other areas. In this case, doing so quickly revealed that you shouldn't have been editing in the first place, as you are subject to an indefinite unblock condition which you have been ignoring, making the food edits issue redundant. If a blocking admin chooses to impose a stronger restriction that specifically addresses your food edits, that can be addressed, but that you need to be reblocked is not in dispute. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:30, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

There is still a very big problem with Sweetener and Sugar substitute that someone has to fix. Bod (talk) 00:58, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

WP:IUC by Pahlevun

I'm not sure if it's the right venue but Special:Diff/858154842 is obviously againt WP:IUC (the part "belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgemental edit summaries or talk-page posts"). Also, an WP:SPI would be nice here. Pinging User:Pahlevun. Ladsgroup^overleg 10:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

We have a long-standing conflict between several users in People's Mujahedin of Iran, which was featured at noticeboards a couple iof times. Did anybody look at it in some detail?--Ymblanter (talk) 10:34, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

The other party, Stefka, was steadily removing a well-sourced content from two articles on a false allegation. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Pahlevun and Mhhossein use ganging-up tactics to revert POV-pushing on the People's Mujahedin of Iran article. This used to also include Expectant of Light, who was recently blocked for sockpupetry and aggressive POV pushing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:07, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

IP user expressing incivility in almost every post on The Troubles article.

user:131.164.141.250
This Kind of talk can't possibly be of any benefit to our project across the board, let alone on such a controversial article. The above diff is one of the most serious I could find, but most of this IP editor's posts contain varying degrees of hostility. I can't believe that anyone would come here with a good general understanding of Wikipedia's processes and let themselves go so quickly. I'm therefore also recommending a check user. Edaham (talk) 05:34, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• The editor was warned for this behavior last month,[4] however he still violates WP:NPA.[5] A block would be fine now. Kraose (talk) 06:16, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
• The attack shown was at 20:52, 25 August 2018, before the warning at 23:05, 25 August 2018, and I see no further attacks since the warning. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
• I see. I hope all goes well then. Edaham (talk) 07:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Just to note. The Troubles and all related articles and anything broadly defined as related to The Troubles, are under 1RR and subject to discretionary sanctions. Canterbury Tail talk 12:17, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

The IP's comments are seriously out of line and should be sanctioned. If they don't alter their behaviour afterwards then they should be blocked outright. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:25, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The diffed comment is very nasty, but it was made on Aug 25, and altogether I don't quite understand why Edaham brought this here 8 days after the IP last edited. The horse has bolted, not much point in closing the stable door. Bishonen | talk 00:04, 15 September 2018 (UTC).

IP range replacing wikiproject classes with redirect on talk pages, can anyone roll them all back?

It's [6]. Unless I've misunderstood something, this is all vandalism. Certainly removing a merge template a few days in is. Doug Weller talk 05:47, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

It looks like the IP editor replaced "stub" with "redirect" on pages that are redirects. I don't see the problem with that. You can use WritKeeper's mass-rollback script to instantly rollback all edits made by one account (or IP address), but I don't think there are any scripts that work on entire IP ranges. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:13, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

If left empty for redirects, the banner will update automatically--either assessing the page as Redirect-class or as Unknown-class, so the IP could actually be making better edits than he is. --Izno (talk) 13:56, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I only see productive edits. Which ones are an issue? Even if there are one or two problem edits that does not justify reverting the rest. —Xezbeth (talk) 07:05, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Odd, I thought I'd checked. I blame it on lack of sleep and editing right after I got up far too early. However, this removal of an active merge tag was clearly wrong. Doug Weller talk 14:54, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

User:Wumbolo

I kindly asked Wumbolo to take a break from nominating articles to AfD, earlier today, but it's just ridicules now that he continues to nominate articles without consulting talk pages or projects. I don't think he is doing correct research, WP:BEFORE etc. First example I will give is Xterm AfD and now AFree86. Both have gone to snow keep. There are other examples today and yesterday in the log of nominating multiple articles regarding older software and OS systems/ programs. This to me just seems an attack on these old articles without due and not to mention adding AfDs to an already expanding log pile. Would like some admins to review the situation please. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 22:55, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Sigh. First, it was I who snow-closed Xterm. But, let's take a closer look at the other one. Looking over the references in XFree86, it's really a pretty poor collection of sources. Lots of references, but blogs, interviews, mailing list posts, source code repositories, etc. I can't find a single WP:RS in the lot. The fact that this is heading to another snow keep just says that people aren't paying attention to our sourcing requirements. Or, maybe they're all just doing the WP:IAR thing. In either case, I really can't blame anybody for bringing this to AfD. And, yes, I've used both Xterm and Xfree86. And I know how important they are. But, we're looking for sources, and I'm not seeing them. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, I don't really use Linux anymore, I've kinda migrated to apple macs and Windows 7, X, long ago, but there were a number of books published for Xfree86, Emil Georgescu published a few, there are published notes which can be classed as a cite in notes on the article. But these are old topics, I hate to say it, but this is kind of an archive of old stuff on wikipedia and to just get rid of these articles without correct due diligence doesn't seem right. Govvy (talk) 23:22, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion of cURL is similar; those of semi-DABs of equipment and journal are not similar but may outrage inclusionists. There are also a good number of AfDs that look like they will be non-controversial. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

To be fair Wumbulo has only made about one AfD since asked to stop. Importantly however we have a problem not just related to AfD's but also to PRODs (and perhaps a redirect and a speedy) dating from about 12 September 2018 10:25 (and some You tube articles before that), starting with this redirect, though may have been issues before that. The PRODs and redirects are perhaps more serious as they may slip scrutiny if not properly on Wikiproject. Following the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Computing#Proposed deletion of Xterm notification and deprod I've done a lot of deprods from Wumbulo's activity with a low threshold, not ideal practice but somewhat swamped, mainly because a number are at least possible merge candidates. Very concerned about Wumbolo's views at User_talk:Wumbolo#AfDs with regard to AfDs etc. This is disruptive because its all focused on destruction and defence rather than trying to improve, not good for genuine volunteers.Djm-leighpark (talk) 02:30, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I would strongly encourage Wumbolo to enable the PROD log feature of Twinkle. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@Power~enwiki: if you want to see my PROD log, or more specifically my PRODs that didn't go through, use User:Ritchie333/badspeedies.py (perhaps change it a bit). I don't want to have a Twinkle PROD log so that people can look at blue links that are article re-creations in the future, after new sources will have been published. wumbolo ^^^ 08:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

If you expect a lot of your PRODs to stay blue (or turn blue again), you may want to reconsider your current PRODding. The log is not just a tool for transparancy, it's also useful to keep track of and evaluate your own actions. Kleuske (talk) 10:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't blame him, to be honest. PROD is a waste of time, you can PROD the most obvious piece of crap article in the history of crap articles, and someone will tootle along and remove it again. PROD is pointless. Just AFD them. Black Kite (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I would have said PROD is actually usually working quite well when combined when monitored at project level such as at Wikiproject Computing where they can be lightweight triaged into let pass, deprod and fix and deprod with a tendency to deprod if in doubt. Wumbolo's use of PROD on articles was technically well correct apart seemingly in my opinion from failure to look for best practice alternatives and use in potentially controversial prods, and especially a mid importance article likely will always be controversial. The question here is perhaps has Wumbulo in a sophisticated manner performed a course of actions and take a stance that was not in good faith and deliberately to make a WP:POINT. There may be questions of failure to follow WP:BEFORE, failure to consider WP:BUNDLE and perhaps failure to contact the project first to see if they had any solutions prior to bulk AfD's. There may be questions of WP:TWINKLEABUSE. I would notice Wumbulo is a WP:NPP and seems to have been targeted just before this period.Djm-leighpark (talk) 07:52, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with Wumbolo's approach; I warned him months ago that inclusionists like Govvy would complain. There's nothing wrong with Wumbolo's nominations that I've seen. I PROD stuff all the time in order to affect a deletion when an AfD would only elicit wrong opinions like Govvy's. Even at AfD, Wumbolo admits when he was wrong. I recommend trouting Govvy for wasting our time. Chris Troutman (talk) 12:55, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Wasting who's time? You edit wikipedia because you have time on your hands! Also, Guitar Pro is point indication that in my opinion Wumbolo is nominating articles for deletion without analysing what the page is. If he knew the industry and how used some of this software programs are, then he might not bother nominating these articles. This is more about this abundant delete culture simple because you don't know and all you are going by is GNG rules? This is poor process procedure, wikipedia is about the collective team effort and no one person should go about nominating a string of articles without a bit of input from one of the projects. Govvy (talk) 13:47, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

@Govvy: Now, you're wasting my time. It is not incumbent upon Wumbolo or anyone else to know the industry. Either the subject passes notability criteria or it goes. Inveterate fans like you expect the subjects you like to be written about without presenting any sources to make a claim of notability. That WikiProject members show up en masse at a given AfD to !vote keep doesn't make Wumbolo wrong. What's going on here is that cabals of editors expect special treatment and they become irate when they don't get it. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Many of the commenters to the AfDs have included possible sources, so I disagree with your assertion "without presenting any sources" as that is not what is happening. Yes several of the articles definitely could have better sourcing and a few of the articles probably should get deleted or merged wmii for example but the commenters for the most point have pointed that out. I know on several of the AfDs I've spent time checking and evaluating sources. AfD is not for article cleanup, there is a reason that WP:BEFORE suggests "Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability". PaleAqua (talk) 05:18, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• I do agree with the logic, just not the targets. Something that is a core operating system component on the majority of Unix-like systems today is obviously notable. However, there is a problem with too much UGC being used as sources on articles related to open source software, and I do agree that while something like X.org is clearly notable, Obscure Window Manager #291 isn't. ViperSnake151  Talk  15:25, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• This is mass nomination (including some major articles like xterm, X.Org Server, some obscure, but the scale is shown by a large percentage of Template:Desktop environments and window managers for X11 and Wayland including one of the categories X window manager referred to as "spam" [7]) combined with a lack of WP:BEFORE. Both are at best pointy, at worst just disruption, and picking up much comments from editors at the AfDs all saying the same. I don't see any sign this is acknowledged, so it's reasonable to bring here. Almost all of the AfDs I've seen are unanimous (or near) Keeps. Widefox; talk 17:15, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• The nomination at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of X Window System desktop environments is a particular egregious example, as the reason given is "seems like an advertisement of one company's products", when the article is clearly a list of comparison of different notable open source desktop environments, nearly all with their own article. Bradv 01:26, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: People seem to disagree about the merits of Wumbolo's AfDs, but there does seem to be general concern about the increasing number of them to the exclusion of doing WP:BEFORE. He went from 10 AfDs in July to 11 AfDs in August to 15 in one day alone (September 12) and 16 the following day (September 13) [8]. I propose that either (1) Wumbolo be warned to restrict his AfD noms to 2 per week; (2) Wumbolo be officially restricted to 2 AfDs per week; or (3) an alternative proposal that will solve/reduce his ever-increasing number of AfD noms. Softlavender (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Both quality and quantity are a problem. Quality it's more than BEFORE, it's misrepresentation [9] [10], wikilaywering [11] [12] [13] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/GetRight (4th nomination), WP:POINTY, and WP:BLUDGEON (on most/all of them), and a relist less than a year after the last Keep AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/GetRight (4th nomination) . Not bold, but reckless. Does anyone in their right mind think xterm, X window manager (a category of articles), and X.Org Server should be deleted? The AfDs are like a newbie with a pointy stick bludgeoning all that turn up in disbelief.

Considering it's behaviour in the AfDs as well, any restriction should address that too. 1) plus some limit on comments seems a start. Widefox; talk 02:35, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you come up with a restriction or sanction (or warning/suggestion) that would cover and prevent all of that? Or just brainstorm some possibilities? Maybe just a topic ban on computer/tech-related AfDs. Softlavender (talk) 02:42, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• I'm concerned about comments like this one which imply that sources were not properly evaluated when first looked at before making the AfD. PaleAqua (talk) 05:18, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

He is not here to build an encyclopedia

Stefka Bulgaria does not seem to be here for building an encyclopedia. I provide some diffs and leave the judgment to you admins:

1- He removes the contents on the ground that he can't find them in the cited sources, this is while they are indeed supported by the source:

A) Here, he keeps on removing contents. while they are supported by the sources. Again, he removes same content from another article, while the content is clearly seen in the source.

B) Again, the materials he removes here are fully supported by the cited source and I fixed his false removal.

C) In this edit he removes contents regarding bombing of US buildings by MEK, this is while the content is really supported by the source.

2- He writes a misleading edit summary for his edits and dishonestly removes other contents in between (some sort of Gaming):

A) Here, he removes some sourced content from the lead writing in the lead that Aaron Schwartz's source, here labeled as 'PSJLIA', is not reliable. This is while the most of the materials he removes has nothing to do with the Schwartz's source and are supported by the book by Jonathan R. White.

B) In this edit he removes a well sourced sentence, alleging in the edit summary that one of the sources (infoplease.com) is not reliable. Stefka refers to the discussion I started at RSN, where there is no consensus over using 'infoplease.com' and the springer book which uses 'infoplease.com' to cite the 16,000 figure. However there was not any objections against using other sources cited for 10,000 figure. In that discussion, Stefka Bulgaria himself says "...hence this figure [i.e. 16,000] cannot considered reliable". Stefka is clearly GAMING us by removing the 10,000 figure which is supported by other sources.

C) In this edit he removes two sentences each supported by two different sources. In the edit summary Stefka writes ‘Strategic Culture’ is a Fringe source but removes the second sentence cited to another reliable source.

D) Here and here, he pretends to be inserting quotes from a source, but is in fact removing the sourced materials.

3- Miscellaneous:

A) In this edit, he removes a whole section he does not like to see in the article, only because the title of the section is not matching with its content. He could simply edit the title and keep the well-sourced material.

The above diffs are only a brief overview of his recent edits in MEK and this editing pattern is just repeated in his previous edits. I've already discussed some of the points on the article talk page, although I think this is a behavioral issue and should be addressed by the admins. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:00, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Stefka, whether he is doing right edits or not (I don't have a opinion on that), is made in good faith. Saying he is "not here to build an encyclopedia" is really exaggerating. This shouldn't have gone to ANI, you should have waited for his response at the very least. He does a lot of constructive stuff on this site. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

But those diffs speak for themselves. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• This repeated filing of complaints towards editors attempting to balance the MEK related articles (which are heavily skewed to the Iranian gvmt POV) - is not reasonable. In regards to the supplied, diffs - 1A - It would seem Stefka removed un-referenced information (as well as info sourced to the Christian Science Monitor) in a BLP article. 1B - is a rather CHERRYPICKED account of the thenation article (including removal this was "one website"). 1C - the first half of the paragraph is sourced to what appears to be a position paper which seems a somewhat dubious source for unattributed use. 2A - this is a student-edited journal that was removed - quite a sketchy source. 2B - [14] seems like a sketchy source, however it says "Total: Since 1979 over 10,000 people have died in the conflict. - which does not support - As a result, more than 10,000 people have been killed in MEK's violent attacks since 1979 - or rather is a blatant misrepresentation (as a large portion of the fatalities in the conflict were killed by the Iranian government). 2C - The econd sentence is sourced to a state department report - which is sketchy. 2D - seems like an expansion of content based on the source. 3A - perhaps one shouldn't add off-topic content to a section to begin with? Icewhiz (talk) 20:41, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

  And all that being said - that a bit of information passes WP:V ("supported by the source") - does guarantee inclusion - e.g. per WP:NPOV. Icewhiz (talk) 20:41, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

  • • Note to viewers: Icewhiz appears up (needless to say it's sort of hounding) almost when ever I file things against users. @IW: Sketchy sketchy sketchy sketchy...Be realistic. Don't defend others at any price, editors will certainly judge your words and won't be mislead by your comments. You had the same behavior at AE and the other guy you always used to defend, got blocked for the third time. This is not good for you. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:09, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I had not intended to comment on this thread until I saw Mhhossein's above comment. I do not believe a user who defended a neo-nazi sock puppet (Expectant of Light) has much room to comment on who or what other users should defend, and I'd further recommend that MH keep WP:NPA in mind. While I do not feel Mhhossein has done much that is actionable, I have found them notably obtuse and overzealous at ANI. Icarosaurvus (talk) 06:24, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Icarosaurvus: Be careful about what you say. You can take it as warning against making personal attacks. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:40, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Unless you didn't actualy defend Expectant of Light the above statement is nowhere near a personal attack. MPJ-DK (talk) 12:47, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

That's a point we can rest on...Cheers! --Mhhossein ^talk 18:56, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Given that the user did indeed defend Expectant of Light, I'd say it's most certainly not a personal attack. While I do not believe the two are connected in any meaningful way, other than sharing an interest in Iran, one has to be careful about defending another user simply because they share one's POV; something which Mhhossein has been less than stellar about in the past. Thus, I do not believe the user in question is particularly well qualified to comment on what one should or should not defend. Icarosaurvus (talk) 21:54, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Icarosaurvus, with your 43 edits to mainspace in 4 years, I really think you should tone it down some lest someone think you're not here. Now, it is true that those who file reports an ANI should expect to come under scrutiny, but what you're doing here is not scrutinizing--it's simply casting aspersions. And whether someone defended a neo-Nazi or not has, as it happens, very little to do with this particular case, unless you can make a connection that somehow involves Stefka Bulgaria's edits. If you can't, stay away. Yes, please consider this a warning for a violation of [{WP:NPA]]. Drmies (talk) 00:49, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I primarily edit portals; specifically, Portal:Current events. The idea that only mainspace edits should or do count is ludicrous; mainspace is only part of what keeps our encyclopedia functional. A large part, granted, but if we neglected the other components of this great work, it would not be the respectable site which it is today. While I disagree with your assessment of the above as a personal attack, I will leave this thread alone, unless pinged. Icarosaurvus (talk) 01:05, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Unless requested otherwise, I'll reply to Mhhossein's remarks on the article's Talk page. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:59, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Boomerang

A WP:BOOMERANG is in order, due to repeated unactionable complaints filed here and in particular due to this diff Mhhossein brought himself - [15] that was blanket reverted by Mhhossein - beyond the sketchy source this is a blatant misrepresention of the source and a serious POV problem - transforming "Total: Since 1979 over 10,000 people have died in the conflict. - in the cited source into - As a result, more than 10,000 people have been killed in MEK's violent attacks since 1979 - turning a two sided casulty count (MEK-regime, regime-MEK) into a one sided one (MEK-regime) with highly POV language.Icewhiz (talk) 05:35, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Previous complaint here by blocked sock - [16] supported by Mhhossein. Another one by the blocked sock - [17] supported by Mhhossein (the sock got blocked for the nature of their comments prior to being discovered as a sock). Filing baseless ANI complaints every month or so against Stefka Bulgaria over a content dispite (in this case - without even engaging in the talk page of the article) - is not reasonable. @CaroleHenson: has been attempting to mediate in the content dispite(s) and might have input.Icewhiz (talk) 06:16, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Additional recent complaint against another user at ANI over content - [18].Icewhiz (talk) 06:39, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

The very providing of this diff clealry demonstrates your bad faith approach towards me. In that ANI, the reported user was to be sanctioned but survived after he changed his behavior. Read ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 12:28, 5 August 2018 (UTC) and Icarosaurvus (talk) 02:46, 9 August 2018 (UTC). --Mhhossein ^talk 12:38, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support - Article issues could have been dwelt on the article's Talk page. Mhhossein has resorted to making unactionable complaints against editors that disagree with him much too often. His POV pushing and inability to work constructively with others that do not share his perspective is disruptive. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:50, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose pending some evidence. @Icewhiz: Do you have any diffs or archive links of these "repeated unactionable complaints"? The two links above are to threads started by a different editor, and smearing the present OP by attempting to associate them with "a blocked sock" is clearly inappropriate. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:05, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

BTW, it's not the first time folks have attempted to link Mhh with the David Duke fan in question. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:15, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Note that #WP:IUC by Pahlevun is about the same dispute.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:16, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but that thread was opened neither by Mhhossein nor about Stefka Bulgaria, and from what I can establish (by looking at who edit-warred with whom, which is as far as I'm willing to delve into this content dispute) Pahlevun's "side" is ... not Stefka Bulgaria's, whatever either one is, so the existence of that thread doesn't back up Icewhiz's claim. And I should point out that while I was on Icewhiz's "side" during the EoL mess, that was purely because EoL was a DavidDuke-citing, antisemiticcanard-spouting Holocaust-denier; from what I can see, nothing about this mess that isn't ... that ... is black-and-white. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:58, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Just one note to show the guy is wrong. On the killings issue, this scholarly source clearly supports the quote in question. It reads: "...Mojahedin was an organization of questionable reputation responsible for “the deaths of morethan 10,000Iranians” since its exile. Or you can read here: "...and its leader even boasted about killing thousands of Iranians while this cult served ex-Iraqi dictator's expansionist ambition," here: "...the group returned the favor and killed by its own claim more than two thousand regime leaders," here: "..."Since 1981 the [MEK] have claimed responsibility for murdering thousands of Iranians they describe as agents of the regime," the report said." Also, this source suggests that this archive Washington Times article supports the figure in question. Where are those "repeated unactionable complaints" or those "baseless ANI complaints every month or so [filed] against Stefka Bulgaria" by me? --Mhhossein ^talk 12:32, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

  Mhhossein restored this (which seems somewhat sketchy) as a source, and it does ineed read ""Total: Since 1979 over 10,000 people have died in the conflict." Nearly all sources, unless quoting the Iranian regime, refer to bi-sided conflict deaths - MEK's militia sustained quite a bit of casulties.Icewhiz (talk) 13:31, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - Responding to Mhhossein's points above:

1. According to Piazza's article, the alleged "death of more than 10,000 Iranians" figure derived from an alleged U.S. Senate statement published on The Iran Times (Islamic Republic of Iran-controlled media has been proposed inadequate for fact-checking for political opposition groups on account of current censorship issues in Iran, including a misinformation campaign by the Islamic Republic of Iran against the MEK).

References

2. Mhhossein's second source is an Opinion Piece on USA today written by Hamid Babaei, who appears to have links the Islamic Republic of Iran (the article is reminiscent of the misinformation campaign noted above).
3. Mhhossein's third source is far from being RS.
4. Mhhossein's fourth source quotes a State Department report that does not mention a particular figure of how many died. Also considering that there have been thousands of deaths on both sides, resuming in the article that As a result, more than 10,000 people have been killed in MEK's violent attacks since 1979 is clearly POV pushing.
5. Here's a list of Mhhossein's unactionable complaints against different editors: [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28] Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:33, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Also, here are a couple of previous reports against user Mhhossein for POV-pushing: [29], [30] Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:50, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh...sorry. Both are some years old cases. The first was opened by a sock and the second was nearly ending into a Boomerang for the user commencing the report. Claearly shows you're doing your best to find something against me.--Mhhossein ^talk 19:13, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Those are to show that Drmies had already warned you that your POV pushing was disruptive. Some of your unactionable complaints against different editors, however, are more recent. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 22:41, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Stefka Bulgaria, said Drmies has a pretty good track record when it comes to POV warnings, but one wonders how that is relevant here. Now, in the section above you said you'd reply to the charges on the article talk page. I suggest you answer them here. You really don't want me and a bunch of other admins to turn off the Alabama game, make a pot of coffee, and wake up to investigate these charges and draw our conclusions without your input. Drmies (talk) 00:53, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Stefka Bulgaria is not sad with the marginal discussions distracting the admin's eyes from the the diffs I provided. Thanks to the Icewhiz's defenses, Stefka's failure at replying to them is losing its importance. Anyway, I'd like to add one point in response to Stefka; His in vain 'censorship' accusations aside, Piazza's article makes use of an Iran Times article dealing with a U.S. Senate statement. The simple point is that The Iran Times, in contrast to what Stefka alleged, was ‬"founded‭ ‬in Washington‭ ‬D‭.‬C‭. ‬in‭ ‬1970‭, ‬in‭ ‬accordance‭ ‬with‭ ‬U‭.‬S‭. ‬federal‭ ‬and‭ ‬local regulations‭,‬" hence has nothing to do with the Iranian government. Had Stefka bothered to check the sources and contents of the articles before making edits, there would not be such a discussion. --Mhhossein ^talk 13:28, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Nabil Gabol 2

• Nabil Gabol (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Saqib (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Balochworld (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've just blocked both of these users for perpetuating an edit war on this article, after the page had been protected due to their previous edit warring and one of them had already been blocked for it. Saqib clued me in to this discussion where it seems this issue has already been brought up, and on investigation it appears I've erred, but I'd like some more opinions on what is the best course of action here.

Saqib has been trying to add some allegations of criminal activity on this Pakistani politician's article, which appear on the surface to be reliably sourced (I'm not very familiar with sources from this part of the world so I have not investigated in great depth). This, approximately, is Saqib's proposed edit. Balochworld objects to negative information being added to the BLP, but has been advised by at least one admin besides myself that this material does not qualify for the WP:BLPREMOVE exemption from 3RR.

Unlike last time there has been discussion on the talk page, but I'm concerned that it amounts to Saqib and SheriffIsInTown talking past Balochworld and implementing contested edits before consensus has really been established. However it could also be that Balochworld is filibustering to ensure no negative material is added at all, and the previous discussion does seem to have concluded that they were at fault. I'm leaning towards proposing topic-banning Balochworld from the article, and reducing Saqib's block to time-served, but I don't want to issue a one-sided sanction without some more uninvolved opinions. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:00, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment We dont add every negative news of BLP's and example is Salman Khan, Google and some reputable news said that he is the worst bollywood actor (according to google search engine) but there is nothing mentioned in that BLP. One user also requested that in talk page, here [31] but senior user declined [32] and i think same applies in this case. User:Saqib contineously adding negative criminal news and resulting in edit war. Observance22 (talk) 19:13, 14 September 2018 (UTC)— Observance22 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Looks like a content dispute and the blocks are warranted. I don't see ANI as the correct venue for the content dispute itself and suggest reverting back to Black Kite's stable version and holding on to that till the dispute is sorted out. --regentspark (comment) 19:23, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
• All of Balochworld's mainspace edits since 2012 have been to three articles: Nabil Gabol, Gabol, and Allah Bakhsh Gabol. I think it's about time they were encouraged to contribute elsewhere, possibly with a t-ban. Unfortunately, they haven't been warned about ARBIPA DS that I can see, so that may have to wait. I also see that they may have been using sockpuppets. That said; their behavior was not so egregious that Saqib should have been warring with them, and even if it had been, as an experienced editor he should have known to ask for admin attention rather that to continue edit-warring. As such I think both blocks were warranted. Saqib has, at least, admitted error, so I wouldn't be against lifting the block for a persuasive unblock request. Vanamonde (talk) 19:50, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't sure if this fell under ARBIPA since it doesn't seem to concern India, but I alerted both to the ARBBLP discretionary sanctions. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:52, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I have removed the description of the 2013 murder allegations as a BLP violation, since he has not been arrested, tried or convicted. Major Pakistani press coverage of him in recent years does not even mention these five year old unproven allegations of involvement in a murder. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:02, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@Cullen328: I do not think there was any thing wrong in Saqib's edit. It was balanced and NPOV'd and covered all aspects of the allegation, from allegation to investigation to exoneration to rejection of investigation findings by the other party. As long as the content is sticking to the sources, there is nothing wrong in its inclusion and I do not think it is a BLPVIO in anyway. We cannot appease folks by removing information which they do not like. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry but I must disagree with you about this matter, SheriffIsInTown. Coverage of a completely unproven allegation of involvement in murder, made five years ago by the father of the victim, without any evidence, and without a trial, let alone a conviction, is a serious BLP violation in my judgment. Removing such content does not "appease" anyone. It is required by policy. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:13, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@Cullen328: He was accused of murder, a joint investigation team was formed to investigate the allegations. This was all reported in reliable sources. I thought it was fair to tell the whole story in the article as per the sources instead of just completely removing the mention at all. This was not the only allegation against this individual so I think it is fair to mention the murder allegation in addition to other allegations and let the reader decide for themselves. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:43, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

SheriffIsInTown, I removed a single sentence which read ""In September 2013, Gabol was named in the murder of Zafar Baloch, leader of Peoples' Aman Committee," and two supporting references. There was nothing there about an investigation or an exoneration. This sentence by itself is most definitely a BLP violation. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

A fundamental problem that everyone should have with the section that Saqib added is the section header "Criminal activities". Activities ... meaning Gabol did something ... but everything in the section is accusation and investigations that apparently led to absolutely nothing. That's a falt out BLP violation that should be removed on the spot. Unless you want an article that doubles as a hit piece. Ravensfire (talk) 02:35, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector and Cullen328: The only problem I see with Saqib's version is the section heading as pointed out by Ravensfire otherwise I see everything fine. Some of the content was agreed upon by me beforehand and with everything else I am agreeing now. If you disagree then let us discuss every bit and piece of that edit so we can come to a conclusion. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 04:08, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

@Ravensfire: I acknowledge the section header was not appropriate. I'll be more careful next time. --Saqib (talk) 05:44, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Balochworld is an SPA and they had made very less contributions outside that page. Nabil Gabol was created by them which was filled with POV and puffery languages. Saqib attempted to improve that page which involved removal of praise and introduction of negative information about the individual which was well sourced. Balochworld did not like it and wanted to censor it and was met with resistance by Saqib. Balochworld attacked Saqib personally and Saqib reported them at ANI. Balochworld accused Saqib of having ill-will towards Nabil Gabol and requested involvement of another editor to vet out Saqib's edits. Me being involved in another ANI thread at the time saw Balochworld's request decided to fulfill Balochworld's request and play a role of mediator. My involvement resulted in content going in favor of Balochworld in some aspects and in favor of Saqib in other aspects. Saqib accepted the decision which went against him but Balochworld did not which went against him. The edit referenced above by Ivanvector has parts which were agreed upon by me. I stopped following that page thinking the issue between these two editors was already addressed. They just had to follow the consensus achieved at talk. Considering all this, I would not blame the admin for his actions but I personally think that Saqib's block is a bit harsh as he tried whatever he could to resolve this issue but sometimes tenaciousness of POV pushers can get best of us and we tend to go overboard. Wikipedia is a way better off without editors like Balochworld. They are not here to build encyclopedia but that is not the case with Saqib. Saqib has displayed time and again how valuable he is for the project. Blocking Saqib is the loss of the project not his! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Comment I also Agree with user:SheriffIsInTown, User:Balochworld is an SPA and has not made edits outside the topic since joined WP a decade ago and was clearly trying to own the BLP. User:Saqib was just trying to make sure the article adhere to WP's core policies, WP:NPOV, WP:VER and WP:NOR. Saqib is doing editing on other stuffs too and with proper sources. Regards. Faithfullguy (talk) 12:45, 15 September 2018 (UTC) — Faithfullguy (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Balochworld offered this comment via their talk page: "I have read the discussion so far and completely agree with Observance22 Cullen328 and Ravensfire. Saqib is clearly making the article about the BLP a hit piece by including accusations that are over 5 years old. In Pakistani politics accusations come on a daily basis and are purely politically motivated. I clearly requested on several occasions that it should be removed because these accusations did not result in an investigation let alone any conviction. I thank SheriffsinTown for his effort but he will agree that the only thing all three of us reached consensus on was removal of 1990 and 1997 election results because clearly it was a common case of a candidate simply submitting nomination papers as his party's covering candidate (someone who has gotten several thousands votes in the same election cannot possibly get 24 votes at the same time). Hence after consensus a protected edit request was made successfully. Once the protection on the page expired Saqib went ahead with his own agenda and added information that was never even discussed let alone agreed upon. I did not expect this from an experienced editor like Saqib. I initiated a discussion on the article's talk page but Saqib seemed bent upon sticking to his version and that is when I warned him on his talk page and involved other editors. Balochworld (talk) 05:58, 15 September 2018 (UTC)" added by Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:48, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
• For my part, I was not intending for this post to substitute for discussion that should be occurring on the article's talk page, and I encourage everyone who's commented on the subject matter to continue discussion at Talk:Nabil Gabol. My question is about the blocks. I think it's reasonably clear that both of the blocked editors have reasonable points worth discussing, since others are now discussing them, so this was clear edit-warring-in-place-of-discussion, and since protection didn't work then removing the two edit warriors is a reasonable next step. Of course this comment is me reviewing my own action, so I'd still like to hear from others on the matter of the sanctions. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:53, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: As suggested by User:Vanamonde93, I too recommend that Balochworld (talk · contribs) be topic banned for sake of WP:N because he has a clear conflict of interest with this particular BLP. --Saqib (talk) 06:24, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Please note: WP:BLPCRIME applies in this case. Softlavender (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Topic ban

If I'm not wrong @Vanamonde93: above suggested a topic ban for Balochworld so here I propose a t/ban for Balochworld (talk · contribs) because of ownership and COI issues. Nabil Gabol, Gabol, and Allah Bakhsh Gabol are the only topic he ever edits since joining WP a decade ago. I'm not the only who think the user has COI on this BLP. (see [33] and this). Balochworld said here that xe's the original author of this BLP and that I should not edit it - a clear example of ownership behaviour. As one can here, xe claims to be an expert on the subject but I guess we don't need his expertise on this particular BLP and xe better contribute elsewhere to avoid further disruption.

• Support as nom. --Saqib (talk) 19:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• Note There's also an account User:Balochworlds (note the extra "s") with exactly the same focus. I presume they're the same editor, and there is some overlap in 2008, but this account hasn't edited for ten years. Black Kite (talk) 21:00, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

@Black Kite: Please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Balochworlds Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:22, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Due to their previous socking and recent socking during their current block, I do not think they should be allowed to even edit anytime soon but if somehow admins consider them useful for the project and decide to unblock them then I will support the topic ban otherwise Wikipedia is better off without them and their block should continue indefinitely! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:22, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support I was mistaken about their block period. They are only blocked for one week after all this. After their block is over, they should only be able to edit with a topic ban on Nabil Gabol, his family members, and the Gabol tribe overall! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:43, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Balochworld has been closed with no finding of fault against Balochworld. No evidence has been presented here that justifies a topic ban, in particular, zero convincing evidence of a conflict of interest. It seems instead that a few other editors are engaged in a content dispute with Balochworld. This looks to me like an attempt to prevail in a content dispute by removing one party to the dispute. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:23, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

  @Cullen328: Did you check their editing history? Their third edit, 10 years ago on 23 April 2008 was on Nabil Gabol and since then they almost exclusively edited that page. They had access to almost every picture ever taken of Gabol. Doesn't that signal an SPA and would not it be a good idea to force them to edit something else for a while? Your assessment about few editors attempting to prevail in content dispute is wrong, there is a genuine concern about this editor. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  SheriffIsInTown, please read WP:SPA and tell me where it says that an editor should be topic banned just for being an SPA. No, it would not be a good idea to force them to edit something else for a while, unless there is solid evidence that their edits violate policies and guidelines. Yes, the editor seems to have a pro-Gabol point of view, just as you and several others seem to have an anti-Gabol point of view. Concerns are "genuine" only when convincing evidence of misconduct is furnished. Where is the evidence? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:36, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  @Cullen328: You again accused me of having anti-Gabol view but if I must describe my views in this matter then I will brand them as anti-censorship. I saw an attempt to censor by an SPA on Nabil Gabol and I tried to prevent that because I believe that censorship is not good for the health of encyclopedia. You can see this discussion where you will see me opposing Saqib and supporting Balochworld which resulted in removal of negative information about Gabol. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 01:08, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  SheriffIsInTown, it is not censorship to place a high priority on BLP policy. It is not censorship to exercise good editorial judgment. It is not censorship to remove completely unproven allegations of murder from five years ago that resulted in no arrest, no trial and no conviction. But my main point, which you have not addressed, is that no evidence has been furnished here that justifies a topic ban for Balochworld. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:53, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  @Cullen328: This is the picture of Allah Bakhsh Gabol with Fatima Jinnah. Allah Bakhsh Gabol who died in 1972 was the grandfather of Nabil Gabol. The uploader User:Balochworld claims, it is "my own picture". Such claim can only come from a close family member and that family member could possibly be the grandson himself, we cannot say for sure. A user with COI issues would never say that they are the subject themselves or related to the subject. We can only use the evidence at hand to come to a conclusion whether user has COI issues or not. And, in this user's case, we have multiple indications that the user has COI issues which includes user's edit history which tells us that they mostly only edited Allah Bakhsh Gabol and Nabil Gabol, access to such pictures to which only a family member can have access to, and claim that Nabil Gabol's grandfather's picture is their own picture. What other proof we need? If we allow a user with COI issues to edit their own or their family member's article then they ought to try to censor everything negative! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 04:28, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  SheriffIsInTown, please take a look at the photo of the bearded man at Jules Eichorn#Environmental leader, which is my own photo. I took it 40 years ago in the Sierra Nevada mountains of California. Do you think that is evidence that Eichorn is a relative of mine, and that I have a conflict of interest regarding Eichorn? If you think that, you would be wrong. I met him only once on that mountaineering trip. Take a look at the infobox photo at Arlene Blum. Is she my relative? I took that photo 41 years ago at a mountaineering equipment shop in Berkeley, California, where she was giving a fundraising pitch, and that was the only time I ever met her. Do I have a conflict of interest about Blum? No. Bottom line: The photos are not evidence of a conflict of interest requiring a topic ban. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:55, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per Cullen. Please also note that WP:BLPCRIME applies in this case. Please work out the content dispute on the talkpage of the article, utilizing appropriate dispute resolution procedures if necessary. Softlavender (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

  @Softlavender: WP:BLPCRIME does not apply on this individual instead WP:WELLKNOWN applies. Since you based your vote on argument by Cullen328 thus please see my reply to Cullen 328 above! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:31, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  To have a section in a BLP titled "Criminal activities" [34], full of unproven allegations, is most definitely a BLP violation and a violation of WP:BLPCRIME. -- Softlavender (talk) 00:41, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

  @Softlavender: I opposed that section heading and it was added during the time I was not watching the article but we cannot remove all content just because of a bad heading. A bad heading can be changed into a good heading! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:55, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Thylacoop5

• Thylacoop5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Editor Thylacoop5 continues to create disruptive redirects/moves on Dervish_movement_(Somali) despite repeated requests to stop and against consensus on the talk page.

A discussion was started on the article's talk page, regarding a name change. Editor Thylacoop5 declared their opposition to the move [35], then went ahead and unilaterally decided to make redirects using every single title suggested in the talk page discussion, all pointing to a different page in an attempt to stall any future moves [36], [37], [38], [39], [40]. They were uncooperative on the talk page and did not offer any explanation for their edits despite requests, nor engagement with the ongoing discussion.

They've also not responded to requests for RS support of their edits by other editors [41].

Despite a consensus being reached on the talk page by other editors, they continue to refuse to get the point and keep changing the article's title against talk page consensus, and changing redirect targets, creating more redirects and generally causing a lot of confusion, examples:

• Unilaterally moving article despite ongoing discussion on talk page and consensus against such moves [42]
• Redirects to other articles, again, done unilaterally and without explanation [43], [44], [45],

• Which culminated in their creation of 40 redirects which prompted [discussion] on WP:RFD, where this list of their redirects was compiled:

Full list

Dervish Movement (1900–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1900 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1900 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1900-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1896–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1896 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1896 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1896-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1897–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1897 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1897 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1897-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1898–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1898 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1898 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1898-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1899 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1899 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish Movement (1899–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1900–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1900 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1900 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1900-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1896–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1896 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1896 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1896-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1897–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1897 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1897 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1897-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1898–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1898 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1898 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1898-1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1899 – 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1899 - 1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] Dervish movement (1899–1920) → Somaliland Campaign  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ]

• They are still creating a redirect of any title suggested on the talk page. Example: "Somali Dervish movement" was suggested by Ms Sarah Welch on the talk page [46]. Thylacoop5 promptly used the title here [47] earlier today to preempt any move.

Thylacoop5 has been warned that this is disruptive, and requested to engage in the talk page/explain their edits instead of constantly moving the article, to no avail: [48], [49], [50].

They are still adamant on continuing this behaviour with their most recent move being one done earlier today [51]. This prompted editor Anthony Appleyard to intervene and rectify the confusion from all these moves.

Any help with Thylacoop5's behaviour would be appreciated. Regards--Kzl55 (talk) 15:41, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. The newly made page move' title is a WP:REDUNDANTFORK of this article (since deleted by Geeljire) and possibly this article. Geeljire and Kzl55 should have made a WP:MERGE proposal instead of deletions or moves from the original stable title (Dervish state). The new title is also confusing given the existence of Sudanese Dervish movement and Sufi dervish movement. Thylacoop5 (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

We were discussing possible titles to be used on the article's talk page, and presumably because you opposed that [52], you went and systematically made every suggested title a redirect to a different page (Mahdist War), this was disruptive as explained above. Both Sudanese Dervish movement and Sufi dervish movement were created by you yesterday [53], [54], there was no confusion prior to your creation of these redirects. --Kzl55 (talk) 06:03, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Dervish state has been the stable title for 10 years. Instead of seeking wider participation through an RfC, you WP:CANVASSED your fellow darodphobic buddy GeelJire because you knew he would support shifting the focus of the article from a state to a movement. The words "movement" and "state" are not synonymous, and the content of the article suggests a state focus. Thylacoop5 (talk) 07:35, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Please do not use slurs again per WP:Civility. What you describe is a content issue, this is not the place for it, we are discussing your disruptive conduct in that article here. At any rate, you were asked to provide evidence from RS for your solo support for "Dervish state" against consensus on the talk page [55], you failed to do so. Please stop content-related discussions as it can be seen as an attempt to derail the report. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:48, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Its not a slur. It is relevant to point out GeelJire's POV because then it would fall under WP:CANVASSING if you're messaging someone with the same clannish POV as you.Thylacoop5 (talk) 12:20, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Other than the impatient redirects by Thylacoop5 that needs to stop (an admin has already left a caution on the article's talk page), I consider this a content dispute about an article that has much room for improvement. The current version of the Dervish movement (Somali) article generally lacks quality peer-reviewed sources, some cite very old sources and a few of the citations are vague, they need details to encourage verifiability. I suggest encouraging Kzl55, GeelJire and Thylacoop5 to return to the talk page and work through the content dispute through a polite discussion that focuses on the sources, such as some found in this recently created article by Thylacoop5, that was deleted and redirected by GeelJire. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:25, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

First and foremost, I oppose the normalization of participation by someone (GeelJire) who engages in overt racism as I have linked below where he mocks Ogaden (clan). Thylacoop5 (talk) 14:20, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, the redirects were done to sabotage any future move, Thylacoop5 went systematically through every single title suggested and created a redirect to a different page. Even when Somali Dervish movement was discussed as a potential new title [56], separate from Thylacoop's previous redirects, they promptly went and created a redirect of that specific title as well [57]. Its very disruptive. --Kzl55 (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I didn't create a redirect in your last diff, I created an article. Thylacoop5 (talk) 15:06, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

You have systematically and promptly used every single potential title suggested in that talk page discussion and created multitude of redirects in an effort to stall/sabotage any future moves. That is disruptive editing. --Kzl55 (talk) 15:32, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. This does seem to be getting out of hand. It is disruptive editing. I propose move-protecting the article, and official WP:RM for any page-move, which can only be carried out by an admin. I also propose a topic ban on redirects and moves relating to this specific subject matter. Softlavender (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

@Softlavender: I would normally support this. But Thylacoop5 is still not acknowledging their edits were disruptive. Their behaviour shows clear intent to disrupt the article against forming consensus, and led to this RFD discussion of their redirects by Wikipedia editors, as well as the involvement of other editors to fix their disruptive redirects. By systematically going through every title suggested in the talk page, the intent was clearly to disrupt and sabotage any future moves. All whilst ignoring requests to provide RS in the talk page. This shows many hallmarks of WP:NOTHERE and in my opinion is deserving of sanctions. --Kzl55 (talk) 20:10, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

My suggestion is a sanction, Kzl55. Topic-banning Thylacoop5 from redirects and moves relating to this subject. Softlavender (talk) 22:43, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support I support Softlavender's suggestions. This page is currently used for geopolitical soapboxing. Softlavender's helpful suggestion may stymie this. Thylacoop5 (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. On top of ignoring consensus and making disruptive edits, i also believe that Thylacoop5 may have been WP:CANVASSING off wikipedia onto message boards. Here-[ https://somalilane.com/forum/index.php?threads/need-darod-wikipedia-editors.7816/]. An individual with a similar name encourages Darod people to help ban editors. I left a message on his talk page concerning this and he promptly deleted it from his talkpage. Not sure whether this is a seperate issue to the one being discussed above. Should i proceed to make seperate report?. GeelJire (talk) 21:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
  • "Please join wikipedia and help me get these clannist Isaaq editors banned." This is not good. Softlavender (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Lol. I'm 100% convinced that the above is GeelJire posing as me. This is my evidence that the above was posted by GeelJire:

• GeelJire is already prone to pseudonymous online accounts for abuse (see 85.210.177.159 this account where he misrepresents a source) amd

(compare with current IP (85.210.182.208)

• Why would I out myself by using my own name?
• I have never opened a social media account in my life
• GeelJire is very active on forums; compare for instance these forum posts "the incident that sparked", with the exact same source, which is copied almost verbatim to "the incident that sparked".
• GeelJire is aware of that thread immediately. I only found out about the post because of SoftLavender's link.
• I'm not even a Darod clan member. I can confirm this through memorabilia at my home in a livestream.
• I would never engage in such clannist diatribes as that post. I despise clannism, unlike GeelJire who seems to revel in it (see below link where he's mocking the Ogaden clan)
• Why would I try to ban editors when I'm in the midst of attempting to verify sources from them?

The online post made by GeelJire seems to be an attempt at sidetracking due to my exposure of his historical revisionism and misrepresented sources. Thylacoop5 (talk) 06:39, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Proposal I propose a topic ban for anyone misrepresenting sources or removing reliable sources regarding the topic of the Dervish state, broadly construed. Thylacoop5 (talk) 19:22, 16 September 2018 (UTC) Support as nom. Thylacoop5 (talk) 19:23, 16 September 2018 (UTC) Oppose as nonsensical, unnamed, subjective, and unenforceable. Softlavender (talk) 22:45, 16 September 2018 (UTC) Snow oppose this is not the type of topic-ban that can be enacted at this board, and not possible to fairly enforce. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:25, 17 September 2018 (UTC) Oppose - Misrepresenting sources or removing reliable sources is already considered disruptive editing, so that this says nothing useful and will just result in trolling. That is probably what Softlavender is saying. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:39, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Clannism

• Kzl55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GeelJire (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The ongoing and deadly Puntland–Somaliland dispute is really a euphemism for the clannist Darod (Puntland)-Isaaq (Somaliland) dispute. Unfortunately, the anti-Darod/pro-Isaaq pair User:Kzl55 and User:GeelJire have transferred this conflict onto Wikipdia through a campaign to erase or malign Darod-related history. Some examples:

• [58], [59], They collaborate to delete the Harti article, even though (a) "'harti' somali" produces 2,850 returns on google books and (b) harti unity is a founding principle of Puntland (see [60]).
• [61], Similar deletion at Dhulbahante.
• [62] Maligning of a Darod subclan. BTW, "Ogaden" is a Somali word meaning "knowledge", so there is no doubt GeelJire is mocking both the epithet and the IQ of this clan.
• [63] Name change that deletes the statehood of a predominantly Darod state and insinuates its some Taliban outfit.
• [64] WP:OR date and article wp:neo article title.
• [65] Antipathy towards Dervish (read: Darod) flag
• [66] WP:OR by adding Nur Ahmed Aman (read: Isaaq) with undiscernible source, someone with zero google books hits to the lede as a joint-state founder, which is impossible given that this was an autocracy.
• [67] misrepresents source by not quoting the full quote. The full quote says that Hassan (read: a Darod) solely sent that letter. Geeljire makes it sound like various people wrote it.
• [68] Geeljire whilst wp:socking as an IP (compare with current IP (85.210.182.208) makes the historical revisionist claim that Nur (an Isaaq), not Hassan (a Darod) founded Dervish state.
  • [69] Same historical revisionism
  • [70] Same historical revisionism
• [71], [72] GeelJire misrepresents an advisor/lieutenant as a leader/commander (source
• [73], [74], [75] Pushes WP:UNDUE by promoting the notion that Dhulbahante (a Darod subclan) were pro-colonial, even though most reliable sources describe Dhulbahante as the "strongest base" of anti-colonialism
• [76] Canvassing one another.
• [77] Kzl55 censures the following sources and publishers as unreliable: Newsweek, University of Manitoba Press
• [78] kzl55 censures ref sourced to Random House
• [79] kzl55 censures the following citations: Michigan State University, and [80] by historian John Drysdale (historian)
• [81] kzl55 misrepresents source - original source says he was Hassan's (read: Darod) right-hand man, not the "movements right hand man" whatever that means.
• [82] kzl removes a sourced infobox
• [83] unexplained image removal pertaining Somaliland massacre, removes Hassan's positive alias, replaces with negative one
• [84] Kzl55 adds false/unsourced claim that Sudi is a founder
• [85] Kzl55 Removes Dhahar, despite the fact they have Puntland representatives on the ground ([86],
• [87] KZL55 Inserts "Somaliland", despite the city only has Somalian or Puntland adminostrators
• [88] KZL55 removes Warsangali (read: Darod) map even though the map is sourced at Commons
• [89] kzl55 Adds a 20th century census to a 19th century state.
• [90] tendentious/unsourced geographic edits

This is just the tip of the iceberg. A white supremacist erasing African-American history wouldn't last. But because most admins are unfamiliar with Somali clan dynamics, this Horn African version of racism flies under the radar. Im not sure whether to propose a warning, or that GeelJire and Kzl55 are topic-banned from Darod-related pages. Thylacoop5 (talk) 22:41, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. Retaliatory filing, please see above Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_editing_by_Thylacoop5. More than happy to discuss my edits if needed. --Kzl55 (talk) 06:03, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Okay. Asnswer these questions: (a) do you admit that you edits are motivated by darodphobic prejudice, and more specifically, any identifiers that might contradict with the secessionist movement Somaliland's expansionist aims? (b) what makes Newsweek, University of Manitoba Press, Michigan State University, historian John Drysdale, ABC-CLIO, Zed Books and Random House unreliable? (c) do you have any sources that describe either Haji Sudi or Nur Aman as a state founder; if not, do you agree you're engaging in historical revisionism/WP:OR? Thylacoop5 (talk) 07:35, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Again, please do not use slurs again per WP:Civility. This is not the appropriate avenue for content-related discussions, use the talk pages. As I said this is a retaliatory report. I reiterate that I am happy to discuss any edits with admins if needed. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:48, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Talk page discussion is unviable because your deletion of reliable sources and insertion of Nur Aman or Haji Sudi spans several articles. So I ask a second time. (a) What makes Newsweek, University of Manitoba Press, Michigan State University, historian John Drysdale, ABC-CLIO, Zed Books and Random House unreliable? (b) do you have any sources that describe either Haji Sudi or Nur Aman as state founders? Thylacoop5 (talk) 12:20, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment No action suggested. FWIW, after a quick review of some of edit diffs above, I am having trouble verifying parts of the allegations. For example, this, claims Thylacoop5, "Kzl55 censures the following sources and publishers as unreliable: Newsweek, University of Manitoba Press".... but I see no UMP through that edit diff and we do need some care in using newspapers/magazines beyond recent news and events. For other reasons too complex to elaborate on this board, I also concur with Yamaguchi's actions to the Harti article and redirect. The editors should take the specific content disputes to respective articles. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:25, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

The only reason I knew that the insertion of three rulers was a hoax because I knew that Daraawiish was an autocracy. So it couldn't possibly have been ruled by 3 people. If not for this knowledge, such mistakes would have remained int he page. As such, I want more eyes on the article so Kzl55 or GeelJire don't reinsert such inaccuracy into the article. Thylacoop5 (talk) 14:06, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, With regards to Newsweek, in addition to what Ms Sarah Welch said above regarding care in using newspapers/magazines beyond recent news and events, it was actually removed because it is listed on the Wikipedia: Reliable Sources Checklist under the heading Journalistic entities known to have bad (or no) fact-checking operations. I concur with using talk pages for content discussion. --Kzl55 (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Here is someone who Kzl55/GeelJire are promoting as the founder of one of the bloodiest anti-colonial movements in Africa:
Zero google books hits
Zero google scholar hits Thylacoop5 (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• NOTE: This was a retaliatory subthread opened by Thylacoop5 in retaliation for this thread: Disruptive editing by Thylacoop5. I have changed it to its own separate thread, since the subject matter is different. Softlavender (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• Off-wiki canvassing to get editors banned: As GeelJire pointed out in the previous thread [91], Thylacoop5 appears to have been WP:CANVASSING message boards. A guest post usernamed "Thyla" encourages Darod people to help ban editors. "Please join wikipedia and help me get these clannist Isaaq editors banned." -- Softlavender (talk) 00:25, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Grayfell

This editor has displayed repeated incivility that he's refused to address over the course of the discussion on Julius Evola:Talk page.

Examples -

• Implying editors who are not academics and have read Julius Evola are 'confused new-agers and a still larger number of emotionally constipated edgelords.'
• Implying editors who offer opposing views to his are 'nazi apologists' on his talkpage- 'I do not have any patience for Evola apologists, and Evola apologists are Nazi apologists. Grayfell (talk) 19:37, 11 May 2018 (UTC)'
• A veiled personal attack on a new editor holding a dissenting view - 'your personal opinions about the definition of rape have some disturbing implications' which was entirely unwarranted.

I have commented on his behaviour several times and templated him on his talkpage for his most recent personal attack, but he dismissed this as 'nonsense' and invited me to bring it to your intention. I understand that inevitably emotions become raised during the course of a debate, but this is becoming increasingly frequent and disruptive. I'm also concerned by the potential this behaviour has to drive away new editors from contributing, particularly in the last attack on Bananaman2018 which I strongly object to as an obvious ad hominem when discussing a delicate subject. VeritasVox (talk) 07:51, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• VeritasVox, can you please provide WP:DIFFs of your claims? The link explains how to create them. Thanks. Softlavender (talk) 07:58, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Yep- sorry for the wait, took a bit to figure it out recent personal attacks edit summary here talkpage where repeats 'nazi apologist' accusation VeritasVox (talk) 08:11, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
    • VeritasVox, you need to place diffs by each of your specifics accusations in your OP. No one has the time to figure out why you are posting those three links you just did. Softlavender (talk) 09:38, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

No case to answer. Keep up the good work Greyfell. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 08:15, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Julius Evola collaborated with the SS during the war, admired Himmler, met with Mussolini multiple times and worked with him over several years (including at Hitler's Wolf's Lair), was friends with Codreanu, and so on. I still feel pretty safe in saying that an Evola apologist is a Nazi apologist. There's also this: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 71#Julius Evola, which I had forgotten about until now. The article would benefit from attention and sources, but I can't blame editors (or academic sources) for not wanting to deal with this crap. Grayfell (talk) 09:38, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but that doesn't mean you should call other editors Nazi apologists anyway. There are other options to deal with POV-pushers than namecalling. And VeritasVox is right about one thing: Julius Evola only became a talking point for the culture warriors after Steve Bannon mentioned him in a speech, and a lot of American newspapers made articles about it. It's a common pattern really, Trump also mentioned the South africa farmer murders and suddenly a lot of people are edit-warring the obscure topic. --Pudeo (talk) 12:57, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Similar impugnations can be made about Martin Heidegger and his relationship to Nazism, as can be done with various other philosophers. Plato's own political philosophy was explicitly totalitarian and antidemocratic, and Aristotle was a slavery apologist and unashamed misogynist sexist; none of those was an uncontroversial position in their times either, at least not in ancient Greece outside of Laconia and especially not in places like Athens.

My point is that a distinction can be made between a philosopher and their philosophy. Julius Evola and his philosophy were important to the development of fascist theory and provided a philosophic ground for it, but that doesn't mean those taking him seriously—whose theories are not amateurish regardless of his politics—are therefore sympathizers apologists of fascism, Nazism, or other such perspectives anymore than a Heideggerian or Platonist or Aristotlean might. To therefore refer to those whose interest in Evola extends beyond spitting in his direction as "Nazi sympathizers apologists" is inaccurate guilt by association beyond the fact that it is a civility violation when used to describe other editors.

I am not involved in this discussion and I have not read enough about it all to come to any conclusion about it, but if part of it is the fact that you find it acceptable to describe those whose overt hostility to Evola is not effluent as "Nazi sympathizers apologists", then I am not seeing how that is tenable. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 13:51, 16 September 2018 (UTC); last edited (major changes shown above) at 20:24, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

An IP came along changed the article to remove a use of the word "extremism", and to replace "nationalism" with "advocacy of a European Imperium". This is much less informative, and is contradicted by the comparatively large number of sources which link him to extremism and nationalism. The IP then edit warred over this, as well as a bunch of CN tags, this was fallowed by posts to editor's talk pages demanding we "justify" included material which was already supported by sources. This is apologism, not "guilt by association".

Comparisons to established philosophers gives Evola far, far, far more credit than any reliable source seems to. We do not treat all ideas as equally deserving of our time or respect, because that would be very disrespectful to ourselves and to the project. There's also the paradox of tolerance, because siding with a Nazi must fundamentally mean opposing a functional society which could support things like Wikipedia. As I said elsewhere, he's not Ezra Pound or Erich Schumann, or any of the other countless people who were associated with extremism but also did significant work. Evola is only encyclopedically noteworthy for his WP:FRINGE ideas on "magic", and his equally extreme opposition to equality. If you think his contributions to fascist theory laid any groundwork, you're not alone but you're also implying that fascism has a coherent, well-developed groundwork. That's is, itself, pretty controversial. Still, perhaps that's true, but Evola himself stubbornly refused to allow himself to be labeled a fascist even as he supported fascists personally, worked with fascist leaders, befriended fascists, and consistently sided with fascists against their many opponents.

Evola played word games to avoid making any factual claims which could be refuted, interpreted sources to be most convenient to his prior assumptions, shifted goal posts, and threw a bunch of weird nonsense against the wall to see what stuck. This is also precisely what VeritasVox has been doing on the article's talk page (included an RFC which went nowhere), this noticeboard, and the NPOV noticeboard, for the past few months. Grayfell (talk) 20:38, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Grayfell, and I apologize for the initial errors I have since corrected above. I should have been more careful in my original post; the fact that I had not yet been caffeinated is no excuse. I was not aware of the context of the Evola apologism comment, since it was not clear to me, so providing that is especially appreciated. In that context, the IP user was engaging in behavior that can understandably be interpreted as apologetic (and as not), though editing the article on Greg Johnson to insert an external link to his RationalWiki entry as their first edit is odd for someone who might be. Perhaps they just wanted to be more specific and imply a sort of pan-European position that conflicts with the nationalism claim, which the article now better reflects, but even then they should have explained that when challenged. Anyway, I still think such descriptions and comparisons are at best unhelpful and can be argued without much difficulty as uncivil, as Pudeo did at the time. Perhaps you disagree and still think it's fair game, but even if so, that does not seem to have been received as such.

Just to clarify my positions on the other, tangential matters: Evola is definitely a fringe philosopher and his spookiness (in the Stirnerian sense, who surprisingly was familiar to Evola and—not as surprisingly—very "fringe" as well) vaguely reminds me of Crowley's sorcery. I did not mean to suggest otherwise; evoking Plato and Aristotle was just about naming known names, not his peers. I also agree that fascism's own theory and philosophic foundations are in no way clear or coherent; nonetheless, Evola was a significant source for providing some semblance of both for fascists and neo-fascists which followed him, despite rejecting fascism himself. In that sense, he was a bit like Sorel and De Ambris, neither of whom were fascists and both of whom vocally criticized such ideas. Lastly, for the record, I agree with exactly zero of Evola's ideas and have yet to find one that has earned any sympathy from me (even his criticisms of fascism are bad), though I find him and his philosophy to be very interesting and consider both to be a serious influence among the reactionary intelligentsia and their newer ilk.

Lastly, on whether any action should be taken with anyone involved, I have no comment because I am still trying to understand the full context and I tend to avoid opining on such matters anyway. Regardless, your commentary has been informative; thank you for providing it. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I dunno, lack of caffeine excuses a lot, in my book. As I've said many times, I would be thrilled to have more diverse sources in the article, because there is a lot to be said. I would really enjoy seeing a well-sourced addition on how Stirner influenced Evola, or what Sterner thought of Evola.

The 'apologist' comment, back in May, was brusque, sure, but "civility" needs to be seen in context. That specific paragraph of the article has, for several years, been the target of edits by SPAs and random IP addresses. Almost all of them have been trying to downplay his extremism and misogyny, but none of them were willing to tackle the sourcing problems. Many were pure SPAs, but some have edited other articles, and that overlap isn't about philosophy or occultism, it's about the alt-right. I could start listing examples, but I don't think it's worth the hassle to notify a dozen editors who've since disappeared. There is also some very strange disruptive sock puppetry in the article's past (would I have to notify a blocked user if I linked to their SPI? Also probably not important here). Does this excuse rudeness? Perhaps not, but I don't think it should be ignored. Saying that an Evola apologist is a Nazi apologist is accurate, and if we cannot speak accurately about actual political extremism, we have a censorship problem. Grayfell (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Again, thanks for the reply and further contextualization. My initial reply may have been needlessly aggressive, but you responded to it with grace. To avoid this tangent becoming definitely off-topic, I'll drop it and have posted the rest I omitted here (with elaboration) at your talk page—it seems to have largely concluded, anyway. I still think that the Venn diagram of Evola apologists and Nazi apologists is further apart than you do, but that's also beside the point at this point.

I doubt I will comment any further about this matter, but I am glad that my posts at least served as an opportunity for you to provide context for statements that have been recurrently cited throughout this whole affair. Regardless of who did what, context is important and so is its provision. Apologies for the length of this digression. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 01:57, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

The full quote is:

Nuance? What nuance? Using many words to describe simplistic ideas is not the same as nuance. His works are mostly seen as the self-indulgent ramblings of a failed dilettante. He is historically noteworthy for having served a politically expedient purpose in fascism. This elevated him from total obscurity to become a name to be often mentioned, but seldom read, by a tiny number of scholars, a slightly larger number of confused new-agers and a still larger number of emotionally constipated edgelords. If you don't agree with me, find a reliable source which actually takes his opinions seriously. Provide reliable sources discussing his "nuance". Provide any reliable source at all. You've been at this for months and have completely failed to produce any usable sources. If Evola's opinions on sexuality are relevant to anything written in this article, let's see the sources.

That is a masterful summary of the facts and not in any way a personal attack. The problem here is the WP:SPA Bananaman2018 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and (obviously) VeritasVox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is not quite a WP:SPA but doesn't rise far above it. A WP:TBAN for both of these editors would do no harm and would give poor Grayfell some peace. Guy (Help!) 09:43, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

'confused new-agers' and 'emotionally constipated edgelords' is 'masterful' and not a personal attack against Bananaman2018 who was explicitly saying he's read Evola in the comments before this? VeritasVox (talk) 10:02, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support topic ban of Bananaman2018 (talk · contribs) and VeritasVox (talk · contribs) on the subject of Julius Evola, as proposed above by JzG. Enough is enough. Softlavender (talk) 10:05, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support topic ban to prevent Bananaman2018 and VeritasVox from editing any page relating to Julius Evola per Guy. Skimming Talk:Julius Evola shows good responses from Grayfell with WP:IDHT parrying from VeritasVox (for example, in the first talk section where VeritasVox repeatedly tries to draw an unhelpful analogy with Mahmoud Abbas and resorts to listing links to essays/policies without any engagement with the issues raised by Grayfell that I can see). Johnuniq (talk) 10:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for both - As usual, editors with some version of "truth" in their usernames are generally here to push a POV or to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. That appears to be the case with one of these two. I'd be interested in the results if a CU should see fit to look into this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:14, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Conflict of interest and legal threats

• KAVV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Jack.E.Alexander (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 67.1.218.45 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 74.77.190.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I was originally going to list this at COIN, but the possible legal threats I found makes me bring this here instead. I (or someone else) can still make a post regarding this issue on COIN.

Over the last two weeks, the editors listed above have attempted to remove a section from the listed article (KAVV) which discusses a controversy about the radio station's owner. In their edit summaries, they claim to be making these edits by request of the station's owner. The section of the article in question is reliably sourced, and requests for these users to discuss this issue on the article's talk page seem to have so far been ignored.

Jack.E.Alexander posted at least one legal threat in connection to the article, which can be found in the first sentence on this page. I am not going to quote the legal threat, but it should be pretty obvious. EclipseDude (talk) 13:49, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I've blocked Jack Alexander, another editor has been blocked as a sock. Doug Weller talk 16:37, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• EclipseDude, since the named accounts have been blocked, I believe you should probably request semi-protection (which will prevent IPs from editing the article directly) at WP:RFPP. Particularly if the problem continues. Would you agree, Doug Weller? If so, this thread can probably be closed. Softlavender (talk) 17:07, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

@Softlavender: I already have posted a request for pending changes at RfPP. I suppose semi is also an appropriate choice. I will leave that up to an admin's discretion. EclipseDude (talk) 17:11, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

@Softlavender: I agree that we've done all we can here. Doug Weller talk 17:49, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Doug Weller, can you CU Btthevoice, who has joined the fray? Softlavender (talk) 23:16, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Hello hello Doug Weller, can you please CU Btthevoice? The duck is quacking into a megaphone: Talk:KAVV#Who is Jack E. Alexander. -- Softlavender (talk) 05:34, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• I've semiprotected KAVV for one month, due to the apparent COI edits by IPs. EdJohnston (talk) 00:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

RM close by new account

A requested move discussion for a city (Pondicherry > Puducherry (city)) was closed by a new account specifically created for that purpose (as indicated by the username and edits), which also voted participated in the discussion. There was no consensus regarding the move and a new account closing it does not fall in WP:CONSENSUS. Please see if this can be looked into and the move discussion be reopened. Gotitbro (talk) 16:11, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I reverted his close as an involved close. I'll let administrators take it from here. Softlavender (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Maybe a sock? Probably WP:NOTHERE. New account cannot close discussion Hhkohh (talk) 16:18, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

All of his edits are odd, even on the article itself -- I've had to revert each one as either inaccurate, irrelevant, uncited, or all three. Might be socking, trolling, block-evading, or all three. Softlavender (talk) 16:26, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

User:Pdineen03 and personal attacks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is regarding the behaviour of User:Pdineen03 and they have previously been blocked for unsourced and disruptive editing. They have had additional warnings which have made no difference.

• I condensed plot information on a fictional character's article Kim Butterfield and they were unhappy. This is from that and includes swearing. [92]

• When I removed unsourced information from an article I received this: [93]

• Insulting editors, branding one a "looney": [94]

• Attacking other editors [95]

• So today - This one is very uncivil. [96]

I hope this can be dealt with before the editor can cause more disruption. It is not possible to have a constructive conversation with this user as they resort to name calling and degrading others efforts.Rain the 1 16:29, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• People, please keep discussions about article content on the talkpage of the article.. Pinging Pdineen03. Now will both of you please go back and discuss only on the article talkpages? Please stay off each other's usertalk. Softlavender (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Pdineen03, please don't post on my usertalk either. Please use the article's talkpage for discussion. Discuss civilly with each other. Avoid usertalk. Assume good faith. Try in good faith to reach a consensus about the issue(s), and if you can't then utilize some form of dispute resolution. Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• I'm going to offer one more suggestion (to Pdineen03): If someone enjoys writing long descriptions/biographies/details of fictional characters from TV shows, the best place to post those is on a personal site, a fan site, a Wikia about the show, etc. Enthusiasm is welcome on Wikipedia, but what we call "fancruft" (overlong over-emphasis on fictional characters or events) is not, since it is non-encyclopedic. Character descriptions or pages on Wikipedia should be concise and to the point. I hope that makes sense. Softlavender (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I warned Pdineen03 for the behavior described above, and two minutes later, Bbb23 blocked them for socking. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:56, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unable to log in

I got an e-mail from a user I'd rather not name, who complained that he wasn't able to log in with his usual username and password from abroad. It had worked OK from his home, and as I understood it, he used his phone in both places. Can anybody explain or help? Bishonen | talk 18:05, 16 September 2018 (UTC).

Without knowing details of the ISP used abroad, I don't think anyone could offer any useful insight specific to this issue. But a few tips: If they're getting an error stating that they're unable to log in for an unknown or non-credentials-based reason, then they should try using going through a proxy that isn't blocked on WP. I know NordVPN has a few that are set up for editing WP (they don't show up as open proxies). If they're getting the "wrong username/password" error, then they're probably being hit by a MITM of some sort (the "middle" might be the machine they're logging on, a malicious or hacked ISP, a local proxy, etc, etc), and their account should be blocked until you can confirm that they're back in the states and able to change their password. If they're just not able to connect to WP, then try the proxy tactic again, as WP might be blocked by the ISP or even the government wherever they are. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:32, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

One last tip: US and UK keyboards have different layouts for some of the Shift keys. Have them double check that any sybols they're getting by holding down shift and pressing a key are being typed correctly by checking it in a text editor, or anywhere that they can type and see the results. I'm pretty sure there are other Roman Alphabet keyboard layouts, as well. This can generally be changed in the input settings on the computer pretty easily. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:34, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Wow. Thank you, MjolnirPants. Would the executive summary be that it's not surprising, and he had better pursue some other hobby until he gets back home? (Which won't be that many days, but we all know the wikipediholism can bite.) Anyway, I'll just point him to your reply. People don't need to log in in order to read ANI, surely. Bishonen | talk 18:56, 16 September 2018 (UTC).

That's what I would do, yes. And I'd change my password when I got home. And if I were you, I'd keep an eye on that account's contribs, just in case it did get compromised. It's not particularly likely, but there's no downside to keeping eyes on. Note that, at least in my not-so-humble-yet-occasionally-self-deprecating opinion, editing Wikipedia should be a hobby. As in, it's something you do for the fun, sense of accomplishment and entertainment value. If you find yourself lacking in those things while on vacation (or with sufficient free time to notice the lack on a business trip), I'd say you're getting traveling wrong. I've been to quite a few exotic and mundane locales, and I assure you that there is always something worthwhile to do, even if it's as simple as watching the local kids playing soccer and rewarding the winning team with candy. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:19, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• This person is your secret lover, isn't it, Bishonen? That's why you cannot reveal his identity. Well, have fun, is all I can say. Softlavender (talk) 23:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Sadly, no, he's just a member of Bishzilla's harem. Susceptible monster! Not picky! Bishonen | talk 00:05, 17 September 2018 (UTC).

Just to add to the keyboard layout point. I remember many years ago traveling in France. I went to an internet cafe and found to my horror that they change the position of a couple of their keys. See AZERTY. It was a nightmare because I can largely touch type on a QWERTY. Blackmane (talk) 01:10, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Wakari07

• Wakari07 (talk · contribs)

Somewhat Pro-Russian activism and Misinformation campaign. As well as several instances of edit warring. I have noticed the user removing some important facts from the Portal:Current_events regarding the illness suspected of Novichok poisoning today. user:Wakari07 seems to be reverting any and all words mentioning the connections of this incident to past instances or poisonings citing not enough evidence in source. And somewhat misinforming people on the recent case. Marjdabi (talk) 22:01, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

1) content dispute, 2) the mention you keep adding isn't what the source says. The source says tensions are heightened due to the recent Novichok poisoning, not that they sealed off due to Novichok poisoning. The removal is correct based on the source. You're adding Original research into it. And you're also extremely clear on the edit warring rules, you've been informed of them enough and even said that the next time you get involved like this with someone removing your content you'd take it to the talk page. However you have not. Canterbury Tail talk 22:10, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

The area is sealed off due to the concern of Novichok poisoning, that is a no brainer. Yet the user keeps citing not mentioned by the source. Do we deny 2+2=4 if its not mentioned by a source? Also I have taken it to the talk page, had no success there however. Admins should notice pro-russian activists if they wanna keep Wikipedia legit. Marjdabi (talk) 22:14, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

For now I think the restaurant event is non-notable. This is more relevant for the people who are interested in what really happens in Salisbury. As to the "pro-Russian" accusation, I replied on my talk page. And just to be clear, it was I who warned User:Marjdabi first on their talk page (about adding unsourced content). Wakari07 (talk) 22:21, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

That external link looks like a non sequitur to me, Wakari07. Please explain its relevance to this discussion. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:43, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

It, and the rest of the sentence, is meant as the illustration of a notability test. If Wikipedia was a political propaganda tool (which it is not, of course, it's an encyclopedia), then it might more adequately carry a useful (I consider a fentanyl warning more useful than scaremongering) message on a global (the planet is bigger than Wiltshire) level. Thus, respectfully, you may see this link as a "non sequitur ad absurdum". Wakari07 (talk) 03:40, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• Marjdabi, can you please supply substantiating WP:DIFFs? The user has made thousands of edits, particularly to the Portal:Current events, Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, and Reactions to the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, but we can't be expected to search through them all for evidence which you should provide as the ANI filer. Softlavender (talk) 00:13, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Alright, here are some. (1), (2), (3), (4), (5). Nothing too substantial but I don't want to user to make it harder for news readers to understand the issue. Marjdabi (talk) 00:26, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
    • I agree with Wakari07's edits, and you shouldn't be edit-warring. I'm not even sure why the incident is in the Current events portal, as it is run-of-the-mill and plainly unconnected to Novichok poisoning. I recommend the item be completely removed, especially since it was a non-starter, non-notable, and you folks are edit-warring about it. Softlavender (talk) 00:49, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
      • Well no one knows it is related or not. There was a second poisoning after Skripal case which turned out to be Novichok after about 2 months. So this could be too. Also I read on twitter the patients were displaying similar symptoms to Novichok as well. Marjdabi (talk) 01:07, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
        • Wikipedia is not a venue for speculation, and it is not a social media site. Since the restaurant illness has been determined to be unrelated, it does not bear mention in Current Events in my opinion. If there is an actual development related to Russian poisonings, that can be added to Current Events when and if that is determined. Softlavender (talk) 01:13, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
          • Alright so should I remove the whole thing? Marjdabi (talk) 01:17, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
            • That is my position, and according to his post above it is Wakari07's position as well. Softlavender (talk) 01:33, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Rollback edits by Backendgaming

Moved from WP:AN

Sorry for posting this here because I don't know where else to post this, but could I please request for someone to perhaps go through some of the edits by Backendgaming and roll them back. For instance, in the Chinese people in Myanmar article, he made multiple edits that have now given the article an anti-Chinese slant, and this I believe this violates NPOV. And besides, I don't think we should be allowing bigotry to take root here, and the way the section in question is written stinks of anti-Chinese bigotry in my opinion. If someone can roll back all those edits, then I think we can remove the POV section banner that I inserted. The dog2 (talk) 05:34, 17 September 2018 (UTC)