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Steven Emerson - Part 3

Steven Emerson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Emerson has been criticized for some of his views, characterizing Emmerson as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe in The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, while Carl Enrst, the Kenan Distinguished Professor of Islamic studies at the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, described him as a prominent producer of Islamophobic discourse.

References

ChrisGualtieri is of the opinion that the material above is a violation of BLP, and claims that WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE applies here based on his argument that The claim is highly contentious, purely opinion, lacking veracity, decidedly non-neutral. I argue that this is not the case, and the opinions are significant enough to warrant inclusion, and that opinions need not to be neutral to be significant for inclusion: NPOV requires us to include such opinions.

This has been discussed extensively already at BLP/N:

• Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive215#Steven_Emerson
• Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive216#Steven_Emerson_part_2

While I appreciate the concern about "getting it right" in BLPs, I object the use of the BLP policy as a bludgeon used to exclude criticism from BLPs, when the criticism is supported by good quality sources, as this will violate NPOV - Cwobeel (talk) 16:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reason to repeatedly insert accusations of bigotry sourced to persons connected to an organization in protracted disputes with Steven Emerson. This is a highly contentious opinion sourced to less than a sentence which basically states "Islamophobe Steven Emerson" from a Google string search. Swap "Islamophobic" with "Anti-semite" or "racist" and you have the same BLP issue. Verifiability and veracity - not passing petty insults. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

It's entirely verifiable that Emerson has been criticised for some of his views, and the criticism has extended to the view that he has produced Islamophobic discourse. You appear not to like it, but it meets our policies quite readily. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

His views can be criticized but you do not go about calling someone a bigot on their biography without any merit and sourced to the personal enemies of the subject. This is why "misinformation expert" is fine, but not a bigot. You seem to be unable to reconcile the differences. Swap "Islamophobic" with "Anti-semite" - is it still appropriate? No. We do not go labeling or accusing people of being bigots when there is no evidence they are bigots. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Let's clarify something once and for all: Wikipedia (which I assume is what you mean when you use "we" above) is not calling anyone a bigot. What we are doing is reporting on criticism of Emerson as described in reliable sources. That is a big difference and a crucial distinction in this discussion. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

You (CG) want "evidence", as if it had to be a fact. But haven't you also argued that being a "bigot" can only be a matter of someone's opinion? You can't have it both ways. What matters is whether it's a characterisation that is supported by reliable sources. There's no question that the sources meet WP:RS. (And no, it wouldn't be different if it was a characterisation of someone as an anti-Semite.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The text shown above is a fine example of a BLP-compliant, WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV-compliant summary of what prominent views are held about Emerson. Many more sources agree with the evaluation, so the above text is arguably too weak, suggesting that only these two sources think Emerson is an Islamophobe. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

There are additional sources that can be used to expand the sentence to address your concern, and even Emerson himself refers to the Islamophobe criticism leveled against him, rebutting that "[...] any criticism of Islam means you are an Islamophobe." [1]

References

- Cwobeel (talk) 17:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Seeing as there are 3 conversation about this subject now, if the content being discussed at the prior 2 is the same as here, I suggest WP:CLOSE closing procedures be used after this one concludes. Let all 3 be collectively reviewed and a consensus be determined based on them, Lest we open a 4th one here in a few more weeks.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:41, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I actually agree with Serialjoepsycho. Prior comments supported WP:BLP policy, and considered the addition in the lede to be noncompliant with NPOV: [2] and [3]. Also, WP is not a tabloid that needs to be updated each time a biased source says something derogatory about the subject. Emerson's gaffe was actually included in a section of its own in the body of the article. How many BLP-N discussions must we undergo considering this is the 3rd, and beginning to look like WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Atsme☯^Consult 21:33, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
    • It doesn't look like forum shopping at all Atsme. What's clear from viewing some of the discussion elsewhere, some of you have interpreted a different consensus. So let who ever add what ever new, no one continue to repeat the same old, and then go seek an ADMIN Closure. They will determine the consensus based on what has been said.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Sounds like a plan to me, Serialjoepsycho. Atsme☯^Consult 02:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Note that this discussion is unrelated to the article's lede at this time. The dispute is about the validity of this material for it to be included in the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Related? Unrelated? When your done go seek an official close is the relevant part of the above. If the other discussions about Steven Emerson are related point it out to the closer so they can take those views into account. If they aren't but since there seems to be some issue related to them seek to have them officially closed as well.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is an expanded version, addressing concerns expressed by Binksternet, as well as including Emerson's attempt at rebuttal in a Fox News oped, for balance. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Emerson has been criticized for some of his views, characterizing him as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe in The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, while Carl Enrst, the Kenan Distinguished Professor of Islamic studies at the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, described him as a prominent producer of Islamophobic discourse. Emerson responded to these and similar characterizations in an op-ed for Fox News, stating that criticism of Islam labeled as Islamphophia, and the labeling of "Islamic terrorism" as a racist generalization of Muslims, is "one of the biggest and most dangerous national security frauds of the past 30 years."

References

Yes... I like the phrasing "responded to these and similar characterizations" as it gives the reader the correct sense that Emerson has a greater level of criticism than just one uninvolved scholarly book and one involved but respected scholar. Binksternet (talk) 05:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not really seeing much of an issue with this honestly, but I would like to view some some further comments, and well really get the meat and potatoes of the Issue that Chris has with this. Has this particularly already been discussed?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It has been discussed extensively (follow the other discussions here at BLP/N, liked above). The issue ChrisGualtiery has with it, is summarized in his comment to my talk page [4] The claim is highly contentious, purely opinion, lacking veracity, decidedly non-neutral and sourced to nothing more than half a sentence quip. There is no place for unsupported accusations of bigotry. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Honestly that diff provides no context. The only bit of discussion I've actually looked at specifically was related o the lead and you have expressly stated that this material here relates in no way to the lead. There are probably a few things change, but in principal I don't not see an issue with mentioning these views if by prominent individuals. I do find myself questioning who in context to, "Emerson has been criticized for some of his views, characterizing him as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe in The Cambridge Companion to American Islam" because it doesn't seem Enrst is the person behind this point of view. It actually seems that we are attributing this opinion to Cambridge University thru their press. Probably not the best Idea. I wonder if the views can be attributed to the editors of it or specifically to someone the editors interviewed while writing the book. But really I'd like to hear I'd like to hear more from others to really get a view of this dispute to get a little more context.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that bigotry and/or hate speech doesn't belong in the lead. It is not the prevailing view, rather it is a biased minority view and should not be given WP:UNDUE. I'm not convinced that it improves the article and is actually reminiscent of tabloid journalism. The public's perception of how proponents of Islam feel about Emerson is obvious considering the COI and/or bias toward him and his line of work. Also, several important comments are missing from this discussion as a result of separating it into 3 parts. Where are the opposing views, including what ChrisGualtieri and others stated in Parts 1 & 2? Atsme☯^Consult 19:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd absolutely agree that it would be inadvisable to put that in the lead like that at this time, but above Cwobeel has specifically stated that this conversation doesn't relate to the lead at this moment. As for the other parts, that is why I suggested that an official close be sought and related discussion all be closed as one. If there are any points contextually that you feel would help here please provide diffs and link them. Please though attempt to be brief.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

If the discussion is not about inclusion in the lead, then most certainly include it in the body of the article. I have no problem with that at all. Atsme☯^Consult 20:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is appropriate to wait for an admin to close this discussion "officially". Admins are not here to be arbitrators for content disputes (I don't see any mention of an admin role in WP:DR besides conduct disputes, neither I see that in WP:ADMIN). We should be able to handle the close by ourselves with the kind assistance of uninvolved editors. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:07, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to do anything but follow the procedure at WP:CLOSE. Because you have already been unable to close yourself. I recommend a admin closure just to avoid any unneeded drama in relation to a non-admin closure. It can be a non-admin closure by an uninvolved editor that is prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale if asked. But regardless it does need to be formally closed and that is the whole point. And I know the perfect place to seek an uninvolved party to assist in the closure, WP:ANRFC.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. ANRFC is for cases in which there is no clear consensus. And as far as I can see from this discussion, there is consensus for inclusion, as consensus does not imply unanimity. So, in this case we don't need admin help. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oklahoma City bombing

The Emerson biography should say that Emerson screwed up in his guess of who bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City. Why is that not in the biography? Many authors bring it up when they mention Emerson.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15] Even Emerson acknowledges his mistake as a personal "albatross".[16] Apparently, Atsme doesn't think it worthy of the biography, which is astonishing. It's a prominent part of his career which everybody including Emerson agrees upon. Binksternet (talk) 22:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't just "his guess" - that should be clear because local police and the FBI also specifically considered Islamic terrorism. Reports surfaced almost immediately following and Emerson was one who agreed it had the hallmark. He made the statement, but he isn't the origin of the claim. The gaff itself has been used against Emerson and it is appropriate to include it - as well as the context surrounding it. Though in the big scheme of things - its sorta lame as "the biggest error" they refer to for him, but it is what it is. Political drama is like toilet writings for me - but I disagree with Atsme only because it is too prevalent to omit. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

This should have never been removed. This should be put back in as neutrally as possible.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes it should have, and the reason follows. The misleading comment Binksternet made about me is not unlike the misleading comment he wants included in the Emerson BLP...both are misleading and factually incorrect. Per my edit summary: removed poorly written paragraph stating that Emerson was "labeled an Islamophobe" based on incorrectly stated, unverifiable opinion. Emerson never mentioned Muslims. BLP violation) Binks, I'm curious - you removed an entire section I included in IPT (which is inextricably linked to Emerson and mirrors much of the same info) with the following summary: (→‎Boston Marathon Bombing: delete section... this issue is of very little importance in the case. The videos posted by the two bombers were little seen. The IPT did nothing substantial here.) [17]. And now you think a 20 year old interview on CBS wherein he only suggested that the bombing had a Middle Eastern trait is important? I think the Boston bombing is far more important because (1) it's recent, and (2) Emerson was doing his job which is what we're supposed to write about. Now what could be the difference between the two that makes you think a 20 year old brief interview is so almighty important...let's see...could it be that with the Ok City bombing Emerson suggested a ME trait when it was actually homegrown terrorism, and with the Boston bombing it was Islamic terrorism and Emerson was correct? Interesting angle on NPOV. Atsme☯^Consult 23:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand your point, but that is not what we do in WP. We don't bring our own opinions, rather, we report what reliable sources say. Adding your own commentary to somehow dismiss or diminish the RSs provided, as you have done (see Talk:Steven_Emerson#SYNTH), is a violation of WP:SYNTH. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I did not bring my opinion in. I provided an inline citation for my source, and the source said precisely what I stated in the article (no copyvio) which is actually what we do on WP. The SYNTH and POV is what was in the passage I modified to be policy compliant. Do I need to include that whole ball of yarn here with inline text attribution for each phrase? I hope not. Atsme☯^Consult 01:39, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Cwobeel doesn't understand the point you make Atsme. This is clear because his use of "reliable source" here translates to - the biased non-neutral assessment by a political think-tank which Emerson has been in conflict with for decade and that it uses a quote fragment and a lack of context to attack Emerson personally. I mean sure... the Wall Street Journal to the New York Post were going on about the Middle East trait, live coverage well-before Emerson was already hard pounding the WTC and Islamic terrorism angle. CNN identified four innocent Arab Americans in connection with the bombing.... Emerson also criticized CNN for this act... yet it is "Emerson the Islamophobe"? American Journalism Review is better source than Emerson's personal enemies. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Cwobeel blocked

So Cwobeel was just blocked for violating WP:NEWBLPBAN, which is a method I had never seen. ChrisGualtieri filed a case against Cwobeel at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Cwobeel, then HJ Mitchell read the case and blocked Cwobeel. The immediate complaint was that Cwobeel restored disputed text to the Emerson biography during this discussion here at BLPN, the text in question described as a BLP violation by ChrisGualierie and Atsme. My problem with the Arb case and the block stems from the persistent mischaracterization of the text as being a violation of BLP. The sources are scholarly ones, the highest quality sources we have. Yes, they characterize Steven Emerson and Daniel Pipes as being the two most prominent voices of Islamophobia in the US. It doesn't particularly matter whether Emerson is happy with this assessment or not; the description accurately represents the opinion of these (and some other) scholars.

If we are to institute a rule disallowing any re-posting of BLPN disputed material (no matter how highly sourced the text or how misrepresented the complaint) then we will open ourselves up to those who would game the system: any I-don't-like-it text can be perpetually discussed at BLPN to keep it from being re-posted at a biography. That's a change I would not like to see. Binksternet (talk) 16:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Half a sentence quips from parties involved in a dispute with Emerson is not "scholarly" by any means - it is name calling. The real issue is repeatedly edit warring to reinsert the material which is at BLPN when there is no consensus to include the material is the problem. And you have done this yourself. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Your original research does not take the place of reliable sources, and Arbcom can not (nor do I believe they intended to) set a higher standard for BLPs than established by the community. What I see is editors tendentiously pushing their own POV by using BLP as club to keep legitimate criticism out of articles in violation WP:NPOV. I think this discussion needs to happen at ANI.- MrX 17:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue was restoring content removed under BLP, acknowledged by Cwobeel to be valid and then restored during the dispute. Citing Gale was me and the American Journalism Review was Atsme's source - and the information is not "original research". OR pertains to article content, not highlighting that Cwobeel's source was non-neutral, cherry-picked and unsupported name-calling. By this logic, it would be fine to include racist and bigoted "scholarly criticism" on Obama's page. Sorry bud, but BLP needs to have high standards. I've seen this same stuff directed at Al Sharpton calling him every vile nasty epithet you can think of, but yet we do not include such filth either. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLP requires good sources, not neutral sources. Cwobeel added well-sourced content here based on 3:1 support at BLP/N here. You ignored that consensus and reverted Cwobeel's edit here claiming "Remove per BLP Policy". BLP Policy requires good sourcing, the absence of which you have flatly failed to demonstrate. I've seen you do this repeatedly on this and other articles such as Shooting of Michael Brown. I would like to know why you haven't been sanctioned.- MrX 18:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'd have thought it would be common sense for any established editor to know that you don't restore content removed on BLP grounds until and unless the discussion concludes in your favour, much less an editor who has previously been blocked for BLP violations. I have no comment on the content; whether or not it should be in the article and if so in what form is a matter for discussion on this board to resolve. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:33, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @HJ Mitchell: I don't think it's going to be possible to address this one properly without evaluating the content. The question is whether there are reasonable grounds for disputing it on a BLP basis. ChrisGualtieri and Atsme think so, and they've been arguing about it for months. Multiple editors coming to it "cold", however, have reached a different conclusion and have added/restored the material (sometimes in revised form). In that context, "content removed on BLP grounds" means something different, in contrast to a situation where someone sees a BLP violation and removes it the first time. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Evaluating the content is absolutely critical to understanding whether this was or was not a BLP concern. Otherwise any editor could block any negative text at all from a BLP, just by complaining about it here at BLPN. Binksternet (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Harry, at least look at the fact the Cwobeel's edit had 3:1 support and was well-sourced. There is a fundamental problem when a single editor can stonewall by simply crying BLP without showing that the cited sources fail our reliable source guidelines or that the content is not supported by the sources. Please see Consensus-building pitfalls and errors.- MrX 18:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

So @Atsme: is a non-person? The content evaluate is separate, but the offending material should not be restored by the BLPN filing party while the dispute is ongoing at BLPN. You made a false dichromy argument because no one is saying negative material is a problem. It is name-calling that is the issue here, and name-calling is not encyclopedic or productive and its not in the Gale biography. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Your issue seems to be with the fact that Emerson as been characterized as an Islamaphobe or a prominent producer of Islamophobic discourse, a fact which he acknowledges. Several editors clearly disagree with you that it's not encyclopedic.- MrX 19:19, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding contentious material to a BLP that is verifiable but false or that is unsupported by the cited RS is quite simply noncompliant with NPOV. Sources that mirror each others' bigotry may be RS for a particular claim, but in this case, one of the sources included only a parenthetical reference to Emerson in an unrelated chapter in a book containing fewer than three sentences about the guy. Another source did not even include what was actually stated in the BLP. Since NPOV is one of the 3 core content policies of WP:BLP, and the contentious material is clearly noncompliant with NPOV, how is that not a BLP violation? Furthermore, Binksternet made 4 reverts in less than 24 hours: 21:22, March 6, 2015 21:46, March 6, 2015‎ 08:29, March 7, 2015‎ 09:14, March 7, 2015‎ which not only violates 3RR, it appears to have violated BLP DS. Atsme☯^Consult 18:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

You appear not to understand how WP:3RR works. Try to understand the notion of consecutive edits. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Verifiability is a foundational policy, and sources are how we evaluate "truth". If you want to challenge content as being unsourced, then do so with diffs and a link to the source. Binksternet did not violate 3RR; concurrent edits don't count as reverts.- MrX 19:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Refer to the evaluation by HJ Mitchell above because Binksternet reverted the same material that caused Cwobeel to be blocked. Edit warring is edit warring and when it involves contentious material about a BLP that is not properly sourced, it requires immediate attention. The revert happened so quickly it became a job in itself just to keep up. I don't understand why the same action that applied to Cwobeel should not apply to Binksternet per BLP DS. There are substantive grounds for removal of that contentious material. Furthermore, closure requires a close review based on the substantive argument, not a vote to see how many editors agree despite BLP policy. Atsme☯^Consult 22:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Several editors restoring content is one of the signals of consensus. If only one editor supported this content and reverted without discussion, they should be sanctioned for edit warring. What instead seems to be happening is filibustering, original research, strained interpretations of policy and appeals to non-existent policies. Also, BLP/N discussions do not require formal closure.

Now a specific question for you: What exactly in the disputed content do you claim is not properly sourced? - MrX 22:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

For the sake of brevity I've included a classic example of the NPOV issue at Emerson:

• [18]<--factually accurate information in a published transcript (pg 11) of the actual 1995 CBS interview with Emerson as indicated by an academic source. Another source I was going to cite (had I not been disrupted from editing) is a NY Times article: [19]
• [20]<--example of the misinformation Binksternet insisted on keeping, and in doing so prevented me from completing the last segment of the paragraph. The reverted passage reflects an unsubstantiated bigoted opinion (and biased slur) that was expressed parenthetically (in passing mention). COI - several authors of the cited book are paid proponents and/or teachers of Islamic studies at various universities. The passing mention of Emerson in the book was clearly incidental. The source demonstrates how Emerson's statement was taken out of context: [21] Atsme☯^Consult 01:00, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It's heartening that you would try to figure out whether the scholars are correct or not in their negative assessment of Emerson, but frankly that is not our concern, and it smacks of original research. The scholars looked at Emerson's contribution to the issue and they determined that Emerson was expressing Islamophobic ideas. Let's not try to second-guess these scholars who we accept as experts in their fields. Binksternet (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Except WP:OR - does not apply to talk pages so pointing out that the quote is incomplete and inaccurate is acceptable. Wikipedia is not supposed to engage in conflicts and label people as bigots based on the quips of their political and ideological opponents. Not one case has been presented to show Emerson as an actual bigot. It is rhetoric and name-calling, all without merit. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

What is an "actual bigot"? Who is to judge what behavior deserves that label? Why, the reliable sources are to judge, and if we are concerned about BLP (we certainly are) then we must use the highest quality sources. Scholars are our highest sources. Let's not try and out-think the scholars in their areas of expertise. Binksternet (talk) 07:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Mmmm? ABC, CBS, and NBC which had FBI sources on the day of stating this connection. Oliver Revell (not Emerson) stated that it was most likely a Middle East terrorist which appeared in the Baltimore Sun. Plenty of figures made this connection, the Wall Street Journal even ran a story featuring it. Emerson's award winning documentary was released several months prior and apparently he wasn't a "Islamophobe" for predicting such an attack and of such a style. Your use of the word "Scholar" as some unimpeachable standard is pretty telling that you have no experience in such research... I am also very confident you have not watched the tapes and while I do not have access to the Hillmann & Carr collection (containing the tape of Emerson) I have found many instances of the "Middle Eastern" aspect including Emerson condemning the identification of four innocent Arabs by the media shortly thereafter. So much for "bigotry", but keep sticking to your non-neutral sources and claiming it to be the gospel - I take the New York Times, American Journal Review and the FBI over those sources. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

As soon as you publish your book about this issue, your opinion will be considered a reliable source on the matter of what the media was saying and how Emerson was viewed. Until then, a number of scholars have separately and collectively determined that Emerson espouses Islamophobic ideas. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@Atsme: You answered a different question than the one I asked. This section is about the material inserted by Cwobeel for which he was blocked for violating WP:BLP. So I ask again, what specific words, phrases or sentences in this edit do you assert is not properly sourced?- MrX 17:53, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Interested parties are invited to comment at the Arbitration request by Cwobeel to be unblocked. Binksternet (talk) 17:20, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Resolution attempt

Due to Binksternet's reinsertion and modification, it is not the same offending text that Cwobeel was edit warring. But we need to resolve this. Let's begin by finding some points of discussion to resolve the dispute. Let's break the section down:

Emerson has been criticized for espousing Islamophobic views...

Specifically, what "views" are Islamophobic? This requires clarification and none of the sources being used support a single example. Three different sources are saying he is an Islamophobe, but none provide any argument or example of said Islamophobia. I see verification that an accusation has been made, but this is an exceptional claim and requires exceptional sourcing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

If the slightly different way I worded it is not a BLP violation, how is it that you insisted on Cwobeel getting blocked, when the solution was simply a bit of rewording? It seems to me that you could have suggested some rewording at the article's talk page and thereby saved the community's time along with their patience. Or you could have reworded it yourself instead of blanking good sources.[22][23][24][25][26] Not to mention striving to get an editor blocked for no good reason. Binksternet (talk) 06:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I think there is a core misunderstanding here. Cwobeel edit warred over the content, took it here, edit warred it in, month long protection, added it again, took it here, added it again after acknowledging the "restore part of BLP" and doing it during the dispute which has been requested to have a formal close. So I took it to AE to stop this and also asked for 1RR on the page. You reinserted it, but you did it once and while I and Atsme disagree, edit warring is not productive and its not a top-tier BLP issue. I even asked Atsme to let it stay because we need to more forward. If I undo the material you reinserted and modified - I'd be continuing to stall the situation. You weren't even warned of the AC/DS, but this has got to stop and be resolved. I don't think anyone wants this dispute to continue for another month so can we focus on the issue with the content now? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Chris makes a good point. It shouldn't be enough to just report that some individual has called Emerson a name. If someone has, do they have reason for that position? Otherwise there would be undue weight it seems. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• This demonstrates it is both notable and due for this "terrorism expert's" biography. It goes into extensive explanation but obviously you are not going to just present one "side". So, you all should move on and get with exactly how you present it in the article. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no issue with including the 1995 "gaffe" material and everyone agrees that it needs to be include. Despite WP:BLPSELFPUB objects as it is "self-serving" by one user - Emerson's statements and other sources about this need to be given. The issue here is name-calling, specifically labeling Emerson as a bigot without identifying what specific views of his are "Islamophobic" or "fomenting Islamophobia" as previously claims. Verification of the name-calling is WP:UNDUE without at least a single argument as to why Emerson is Islamophobic in the eyes of his critics. That's the core issue we have been trying to resolve for weeks. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

The sources do talk about why they say what they say. Perhaps not to your satisfaction but that is another matter entirely. "Islamaphobe" is not in the sources only an epithet, it is a critique of his expert approach, which the critics see as revealed by him. They may be right, they may be wrong but in discussing the biography of a terrorism expert, you have to discuss the "albatross" around his neck, which leads to the "islamaphobe" critique. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

So by the logic Obama it is acceptable to call a communist/radical/worst president in history because "critics state" and nothing more? You seem to think I am sympathetic to Emerson because I don't think allowing unexplained bigotry in retaliation for labeling their organization as being related to a terror organization - a fact backed by a federal judge's ruling in the case. By that logic you could call George Zimmerman a racist and a murderer because "critics say". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:06, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

What? No. I don't think anything about you, except now I think you indulge in irrelevancies. I think the sources show there is a prominent critique of this terrorism expert. Your swerve to irrelevant Obama commentary notwithstanding, Emerson is not Obama, two very different biographies of two very different lives, which will have very different demands of subject matter. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:18, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

If it's acceptable in one BLP, it is acceptable in all BLPs. We cannot pick and choose whose BLP we allow contentious material to be included. Please be specific in your argument to keep a contentious statement because if it applies here, it is likely to apply elsewhere - it's referred to as establishing a "precedent". Atsme☯^Consult 20:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect, no one covers disparate lives the same -- only those who seek to indulge logical fallacies of a pretend parade of horribles would even attempt such reasoning. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:16, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want to argue about Obama, start a section about Obama. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

This subsection title is Resolution attempt. Can we please stay on topic? Thank you. Atsme☯^Consult 20:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course. That's why we would do well not to discuss Obama. Agreed? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:14, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Chris correctly drew attention to an established precedent. [27] Attempts to dismiss the comparisons only serve to make it more relevant. Established policies are just that - established policies which means they apply across the board and are not subject to POV. If compliance with NPOV applies to one BLP, it applies to all BLPs. Atsme☯^Consult 22:24, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

No - there is no precedent, despite your logical fallacy -- we are dealing, here, with terrorism expert, Emerson, who has this sourcing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

No, we are dealing with a BLP, and as such strict adherence to policy is required. Strict adherence to BLP policy includes the 3 core content policies, no exceptions. Any attempt to individualize BLP is not NPOV. Atsme☯^Consult 22:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

And multiple editors note that all policies are met, the critique is verifiable and due. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Please be definitive. What passages are you referring to as having met the requirements for NPOV, and how did you determine the requirements were met? Atsme☯^Consult 22:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Mr. X has a proposal he has asked you to comment upon already. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Mr. X asked a question that was already answered by ChrisGualtieri. I see no reason to keep repeating the same thing over and over again. This subsection is titled Resolution attempt, so if you have any suggestions for resolving the NPOV and RS issues, I'm interested. Atsme☯^Consult 00:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Well then you're done, here, if you have nothing left to say and others can just move on with the consensus version, which does not require unanimity. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Potential edits in the Barack Obama article or the George Zimmerman article have zero effect on this article, and divert us from determining if there are reliability issues with the sources, or if the sources have been misrepresented, or if they represent a fringe viewpoint. Atsme, you have made several appeals to policy, but have been a bit evasive when pressed for specific examples. You also seem to rely on ChrisGualtieri's argument which has now been refuted by three editors as being logically fallacious.- MrX 00:49, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Logically fallacious is an opinion, not a substantive argument to restore material that was removed for noncompliance with BLP policy. The burden to restore such material rests with the editor who wants it restored, not with the editor who removed it. Atsme☯^Consult 02:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

That comment doesn't make sense. I was refuting ChrisGualtieri's argument because it was based on something bad that could happen to another, unrelated article. It's not logical and it's not grounded in policy. "Non-compliance with BLP" implies misrepresentation of sources, or unreliable sources, yet you have not substantiated this alleged "non-compliance" with anything more than generalizations about policy. Once again, what specifically violates WP:BLP and why? If you can't or won't answer that question, which I have now asked three times, then would you at least refrain from claiming that there is a BLP policy violation in the disputed content?- MrX 03:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

MrX - I'm sorry you could not comprehend the example and importance of NPOV I was highlighting. The name-calling is undue and is not conducive to a disinterested biography on the subject. I was comparing the fact that other biographies for which no end of such "criticism" exists - are kept clean of it because of NPOV and BLP. Would calling Emerson a bigot survive at a Featured Article Review? No, because it is name-calling. I gave a simple request - provide at least one example of an "Islamophobic view" expressed by Emerson so that it can be properly attributed. It only takes one example to make me agree that such a view can be stated, and so far no example has been given. So far there is none so I think that without clarification - the name-calling must be removed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:55, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

If you find "bigot" in the Emerson article, I'd support it being removed. But I don't see it there... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The request "an "Islamophobic view" expressed by Emerson so that it can be properly attributed" makes no sense. Wikipedians attribute sources, Wikipedians don't attribute anything to Emerson (other than when needed, his own words), Wikipedia has no view with respect to Emerson. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:53, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

*Nomoskedasticity are you unaware that Islamophobia is a bigotry based on religion? This is like saying someone is the key proponent of antisemitic discourse. That is what these non-neutral and minority sources claim. Alanscottwalker, you don't understand the problem I am referring to - perhaps someone else can explain my points better to you, but for the sake of it - swap "Islamophobia" with racist. Emerson has been criticized for espousing racist views.... Is that acceptable without stating at least one example of a "racist view"? That is why I am asking for that one view before I change my position. I am not asking for much - if these sources are as high-quality it should be easy to make an example that is not WP:SYNTH. Namely something like "Emerson has been accused of Islamophobia for stating...." you fill in the blank. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with the idea that Emerson has espoused racist views, extrapolated from the fact that a number of scholars have observed that he has espoused Islamophibic views. Accusations of racism can and should be discussed in a biography when they are appropriate, for instance at the David Duke article. Emerson and Islamophobia are connected by enough high-quality sources that we would be remiss not to mention them. Binksternet (talk) 15:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: I don't think I have comprehension problem. NPOV (a separate policy from BLP) is served by inclusion of significant points of view in proportion to their coverage in sources. AFAIK, no one here has called Emerson a bigot. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, yet you keep bringing it up. I am on record as preferring not to label Emerson an Islamophobe, but it is necessary to mention that Emerson has been criticized for fomenting Islamophobia. In addition to the sources we already have, there are these:

"There is a growing cottage industry of Western commentators and politicians who thrive on bashing Islam. The War on Terror has provided a substantial level of cover for their views.39 While initially terror experts such as Daniel Pipes, Steven Emerson, and Robert Spencer led the anti-Islam charge, it has spread widely."
— Fawaz A. Gerges, The Rise and Fall of Al-Qaeda (New York: Oxford University Press, 2011), 21, https://www.questia.com/read/121489747.

"Yet following September 11, 2001, there was a surge of Islamophobia in the West, which portrayed all things Islamic, and in particular Islamic banks, in the worst possible light.88 The outrage provoked by the terrorist attacks gave credence to anti-Islamic views, which moved quite close to mainstream and policy-making circles. Thus, journalist Steven Emerson, whose primary claim to fame until then had been his assertion that the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing “could only have been perpetrated by Middle Eastern terrorists,” said that the days following September 11, “he has fielded 1,000 calls, many from news organizations,”89 thus becoming one of the most ubiquitous “terrorist experts.”"
— Ibrahim Warde, Islamic Finance in the Global Economy, 2nd ed. (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 2010), 109, https://www.questia.com/read/121094053.

"“This small network of people is driving the national and global debates that have real consequences on the public dialogue and on American Muslims,” the report said. “Due in part to the relentless efforts of this small group of individuals and organizations, Islam is now the most negatively viewed religion in America.” ¶ The five key misinformation experts identified by the report: Frank Gaffney at the Center for Security Policy (see also here); David Yerushalmi at the Society of Americans for National Existence (see also here); Daniel Pipes at the Middle East Forum; Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch and Stop Islamization of America (see also here), and Steven Emerson of the Investigative Project on Terrorism." "
— Southern Poverty Law Center

To answer you specific demand "provide at least one example of an "Islamophobic view" expressed by Emerson" how about this:

" "In Britain, it’s not just no-go zones," Emerson said. "There are actual cities like Birmingham that are totally Muslim, where non-Muslims just simply don’t go in. And parts of London, there are actually Muslim religious police that actually beat and actually wound seriously anyone who doesn't dress according to Muslim, religious Muslim attire." "
— Steven Emerson on Saturday, January 10th, 2015 in an interview on Fox News

"“This is the way things are done with Saudi Arabia. You don’t arrest their citizens, you deport them because they don’t want them to be embarrassed and that’s the way we appease them.”"
— Steve Emerson

I hope this helps.- MrX 15:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri might now be tempted to argue that these views do not actually display Islamophobia. I hope we can avoid that sort of WP:OR. What matters is whether significant sources meeting WP:RS perceive Islamophobia in these and/or other statements by Emerson. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

No... MrX has fulfilled my requirement, while they are not as strong I would have preferred he has certainly met my requirement. He certainly made that Birmingham gaffe - which was quickly corrected, but it still was a dumb thing to say. The 1995 one is more of a matter of context, but this recent one is definitely a major error for which no real excuse can be made. Nomo, you might want to look into WP:OR because it does not apply to talk pages or evaluating sources, it applies to content. Now... we need a way in which to resolve the accusations by using the example - I believe some occurred in direct connection to the Birmingham comments. That way we also remove the dramatic claim that Emerson is "clearly a complete idiot" from Cameron, who has made a serious mistake of this nature as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:21, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's great -- except that you've been aware of that example for many weeks now, so one naturally wonders what all the fuss has been about, over dozens of posts by you about the topic.... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:28, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

.... I am certain you do not understand my argument because of that comment. I could also do less without the bad-faith accusations, but the battleground atmosphere is not pleasant. Is there a direct non-SYNTH case of this or not? MrX has an example, but you can't use OR to claim a connection to something published prior to the gaffe - which those cases were. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok so if that is going to be added, we can add the following: [28] and [29] Atsme☯^Consult 17:35, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri, I'm not interested in using WP:OR for adding anything to the article; I thought I had made that clear. Atsme, the same response is needed for you -- and it's especially appalling that you want to use Breitbart.com as a source in this context. Yeech... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

- Since Xenophrenic has resolved the issue, I'm announcing that these changes more than resolves the issue and is NPOV in my eyes. I don't support Breitbart - but that gaffe thing is different from the issue and beyond this BLPN notice. Atsme - do you have any issues with Xenophrenic's changes - or are we all in agreement that the now-current wording is acceptable? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Chris, if you're referring to the changes already implemented by Xenophrenic at Emerson, I am Ok with them. I will address the plurality issue about the CBS interview(s) on the TP. Atsme☯^Consult 21:07, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Xenophrenic changes have addressed Chris' issues. His changes have mostly, if not completely, removed Atsme's Synth (improper editorializing, Undue weight, over all BLP violations, or what ever anyone wants to call this [30]). It would probably be a good time to ask the other BLPN contributors here if there are any issues of note brought up here that aren't addressed.If not we can just put this baby to bed.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• If an Admin is following this discussion, I ask that you please take some form of remedial action for the unwarranted PAs against me by Serialjoepsycho (^^see his comment above this one). His false allegations of my editing being overall BLP violations, SYNTH, UNDUE, editorializing, etc. are unwarranted, but this isn't the first time he has done so. A comparison of the two diffs will confirm my position: My edit is here: Revision as of 16:37, March 6, 2015. Xenophrenic's edit is here: Revision as of 12:40, March 9, 2015 In fact, I am still researching one of the sentences he attributed to Emerson to confirm it is factually accurate. Atsme☯^Consult 03:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• That is not a personal attack. Simply pointing out the truth, is not a personal attack. Synth pretty much sums it up, someone else called in improper editorializing on the Steven Emerson page. Parts of it were undue. You could even point out the fluff. Overall it was a BLP violation. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• There is no personal attack Atsme. Also, I've had several person attacks lobbed at me, it is the tensions. De-escalate the situation and don't get upset about anything less than unfettered name calling. Now... I'd give it another 12 hours for objections to be raised and then I suggest for a formal admin close to finalize it. Since me and Atsme were "the opposition" in a sense and we agree on the material, I doubt any objection will be raised. I prefer a formal close despite a clear consensus - I don't want a "part 4". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:31, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Just check back in 4 days and take it to ANRFC if someone else hasn't. That will be plenty of time to respond and one day before it archives.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:24, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• I wonder how many times it is actually necessary to say that Tim McVeigh was behind the Oklahoma city bombing. Probably worth scrubbing the first mention of it. It's not very well written and detracts from the tone. Further thru it mentions, "Emerson has been referred to as an "Islamophobe"" but ot really doesn't mention by whom. This sourced to the 'Cambridge companion to American Islam'. If it's worth mentioning it would be worth mentioning who's views these are. This does seem to be opinion based and as such I do feel WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV would apply. Leaving these critics unnamed seems to benefit the following sentence where Emerson criticizes unnamed critics. This also detracts from the tone, though less than before.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 08:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
• Sources attributed. Still problematic though, In 1995 CBS interviews, prior to any knowledge the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building was perpetrated by Timothy McVeigh, Emerson said "Oklahoma City, I can tell you, is probably considered one of the largest centers of Islamic radical activity outside the Middle East", and that the bombing "was done with the intent to inflict as many casualties as possible. This negatively effects the tone of the article. Originally added to the article it stood as fluff that seemed to defend Emerson, now it seems as if it was written to make him look incompetent. Neither of which seem to carry a dispassionate tone. Emerson's actions already make him look incompetent, he doesn't need our assistance. This part is unnecessary as the same paragraph later says, In the introduction of the book, The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, Juliane Hammer and Omid Safi referred to Emerson as an "Islamophobe" and "the discredited 'terrorism expert' who falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing committed by Timothy McVeigh".-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Yep, still problematic... but I don't want to be attacked for "stonewalling" and such. If Sloan stated the connection - completely independently of Emerson - and Sloan is an actual terrorist expert instead of a new person in the field (which Emerson was at the time) then there is very little wrong with acknowledging what the prevailing, albeit wrong view was. The way it reads is that Emerson was the source of the material - when it was leaks in the FBI and law enforcement, three different news networks and other experts. There is hours and hours of TV coverage on this stuff on April 19-20. To criticize Emerson and act as if he was alone responsible for the "fomenting Islamophobia" is dishonest. The stark difference in reality is the reason why I was strongly opposed to the inclusion of the accusations in the first place - they lacked substance and context. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:17, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

re: WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV - Serialjoe, you say "This does seem to be opinion based and as such I do feel WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV would apply." I would be interested in hearing your rationale for that. WP:YESPOV ("Don't attribute fact as if it were opinion") is also likely to apply. If you are going the attributed-opinion route, then your job is not complete. Ernst's academic book describes Emerson as a "professional Islamophobe"; the previously noted Washington Post article conveys that Emerson has been described as such (without naming names); etc. I'm sure there are also "critics" who have used the description. The previous wording was probably an attempt to avoid a long list of "critic" names followed by a list of non-"critic" sources.

re: Mentioning that Emerson made his remarks before knowing about McVeigh in the first sentence - I agree that it is redundant, and support its removal, but not because "it was written to make him look incompetent". It still appears to mitigate his interview comments, but it is unsourced and unprovable.

re: Many saying the same thing at the same time. Chris is correct that Emerson wasn't the only person pushing a "Middle East terrorism" theory during the first 8 hours after the event, but there is no evidence (is there?) that Emerson was parroting Sloan or anyone else, rather than giving his independent assessment, or that Sloan had or hadn't first conferred with Emerson or others. (And just a note, the "fomenting Islamophobia" description is demonstrably not based on 1995, but rather his overall history, as far as I can tell from the sources.) Xenophrenic (talk) 16:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

So "professional [Bigot]" is a fact? There is a different between citing name-calling as a fact and citing an accusation of bigotry as if it was true. Also note that these labels are less than half a sentence and Emerson is not discussed at any other point in the sources. 300 pages and only "Islamophobe Steven Emerson" is it? Seems undue, but since we've established this name-calling is suitable for inclusion, ATTRIBUTEPOV applies. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Is the description of Emerson as a [insert "name-calling" indicating bigotry here] factual, you ask? Isn't that the question every editor here has been asking? I see that the description has been conveyed in sources deemed reliable for the assertion of fact, which is why I raised WP:YESPOV as just as likely to apply. I remind you that your "these labels are less than half a sentence" argument (formerly known as the "passing mention" argument) has already been refuted and buried, as it was discovered that those "half sentences" were also accompanied by citations indicating that people looked into the matter with a bit more thoroughness. Do you really wish to resurrect that line of argument yet again? Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

It would be a major BLP issue to point out certain connections here - I thought we were in agreement that the accusations exist and are trying to handle them appropriately within policy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:25, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we are all in agreement that Emerson has been "accused" of Islamophobia, at the very minimum. I certainly haven't disagreed. There appeared to be no disagreement with the previous article wording that Emerson has been "referred to as" or "described as" ... as long as we don't say in Wikipedia's voice that he "is". However, once you start listing where he has been described as such (Cambridge book...) or by whom (Hammer, et al...) as if those were merely opinions, you are opening a very large can of worms. Once we start adding actual "critics" to that list of sources, do you know how large that paragraph will grow? Is that what we want? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@Xenophrenic: You asked, "but there is no evidence (is there?)" Yes there is, and I already provided the sources, one of which included a timeline of events, others that included statements from Emerson confirming he based his information on what investigators and other reports were saying. In fact, that's what Emerson does - he gathers material, documents, testimony and various bits of information from the internet, videos, television, radio etc. and maintains an extensive data base. You also said, "I see that the description has been conveyed in sources deemed reliable for the assertion of fact...", and I strongly disagree. Consensus cannot magically turn a contentious opinion into a statement of fact in WP voice. A similar argument occurred on Griffin, and the closing admins supported BLP policy, and the fact that such contentious labeling is fundamentally noncompliant with NPOV. Atsme☯^Consult 17:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

A "timeline" showing that other people made equally wrong speculation does not mean that Emerson's comments were in any way based on theirs. After the comments were made and quickly criticized, of course he claimed he based his comments on other people, but while he was making those comments - and even for a brief time afterward - he gave no indication he was only parroting other people. As for your strong disagreement to Wikipedia policy regarding reliable sources for the assertion of fact, and consensus, everyone is welcome to their opinions. However, Wikipedia policy trumps editor opinion where BLP articles are concerned. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Chris, no reasonable person could accuse you of stonewalling, when it relates to my comments there is still something wrong. The section does mention that others said similar. Xenophrenic, can you show me a source that factually states he is an Islamophobe and that he is a discredited terrorism expert? That's a rhetorical question. The fact is both are value based opinions. His work has been been discredited but he still seems to be very active in his field. So YesPOV doesn't seem to meet any real scrutiny and attributePOV does. That would not be my job but our job. As you have found it you might be willing to fix that or be more specific so I or someone else can review this and fix it. Emerson did make his comments before they knew that McVeigh did it. What ever, mentioning McVeigh in the lead is excessively verbose, redundant, and should simply go. The article and sources indicate that others had made similar statements. I do think that meets the scrutiny of policy. As far as Sloan, yes I'd agree that lacking a source it doesn't seem all to important, and inclusion may very well border on synth or least it would be giving undue weight.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Serialjoepsycho, yes, I can provide sources which factually describe Emerson as discredited, to answer your rhetorical question. Perhaps you consider the question rhetorical because even Emerson concedes that he has been discredited and even "blacklisted", although he insists it was done unjustly? The objective description of someone as discredited or bigoted can certainly be factually asserted (David Irving serves as a handy example of both). The degree of bigotry or amount of damage to reputation are value based opinions and can be subjective, obviously — as are any changes in those descriptions over time. The fact that an avowed racist can run for office and still get votes, for example, or that FOX News seeks someone's opinion, do not negate factual descriptions.

Regarding "fixing" the text about Emerson being referred to as Islamophobic, I will do as you request and implement my fix by removing the "Cambridge book" and "Hammer, et al" attributions. Attributing the descriptions to just one book misleadingly implies they are the only source of those descriptions. If you would like to re-add your attribution, please do a more complete job by also attributing the description to the Ernst book linked at the top of this thread, and the reports by SPLC, and actual "critics" like CAIR, CAP, the 2 dozen sources listed on the article Talk page, etc. That's not my preferred method, of course, as it will produce a rather unwieldy and huge block of text, but I won't object to a complete listing. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 22:02, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

No you can only provide me with opinions that he has been discredited. While I agree with these opinions, the sources only show that some of his work has been discredited or disproven. Fox News and others not only view him credibly but present him credibly. I'd love to see the source where Emerson concedes that he's been discredited. I see where he mentions that he was black listed. Do show the source. Sounds like synth. By the way I never said the Cambridge companion had to be attributed. Being the source the book is already attributed. I said the opinions have to be attributed. Ernst book is already attirbuted with inline citation but guess what he's also attributed to his opinion. I'll go ahead and undo your change and ignore your edit warring.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

You'll "ignore my edit warring"? Huh? Rather than edit warring when I noticed the problem, I came here instead and voiced my concerns for discussion. You then suggested that since I found the problem, I might be willing to fix it — so that is what I did with a single edit. Please don't derail the discussion and try to drag it into the gutter by playing that kind of game, Serialjoepsycho. Agreed?

Back to the matter at hand, we appear to have a misunderstanding. You are technically correct that descriptions, like "water is wet", "1, 3 and 5 are numbers", "the earth is round", "Emerson was discredited", can indeed be called "opinions". But for the purposes of this discussion, I was referring only to Wikipedia's policies regarding fact and opinion as asserted by cited sources. You called the information conveyed by the Cambridge Companion to American Islam opinion, and I replied that I would be interested in hearing your rationale as to why you think so. I'm still interested, in case you missed my query. You agree that "sources only show that some of his work has been discredited or disproven", which is the textbook definition of how a person's reputation becomes discredited. He has referred to his wrong assertions and the resultant damage to his reputation as an albatross around his neck he has struggled to remove.

Is there a reason why, in your recent edit, you only "attributed" the descriptions to a single source? You don't see how that misleads the reader into thinking the description comes just from that source? (You mention that the Ernst book is already cited elsewhere in the article, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the paragraph we're working on. And by the way, that Ernst cite is wrong and attributes to him in the footnote a description made by a completely different person. But that is another matter.) Is there a reason why you deleted the Washington Post reference I added. Is there a reason why you moved the Gov't Research analysis source away from the Oklahoma Bombing comments it was inserted to support? Xenophrenic (talk) 12:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The page is now locked for another month. As much as I hate to say it, it is a BLP issue and the fact it had continued for so long was the reason I took the matter to AE in the first place. BLP violations are different from violations of BLP in a sense of material versus the actions. Serialjoepsycho has been citing BLP policy and making proper and reasonable assertions on a very sensitive BLP matter and I must thank him for handling it in such a fine way. It is still clear the content and wording does not have consensus... but progress is progress. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree that Serialjoepsycho handled it well, and I also thank him. Atsme☯^Consult 04:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I also agree with Chris that the content and wording does not have consensus. (And it's locked for 2 months, not "another month".) Xenophrenic (talk) 12:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually Xenophrenic, I said since you found it you could fix it or, "be more specific so I or someone else can review this and fix it." You can put emphasis on the part where you do something fruitful but it doesn't erase the actual part where you were asked to provide more clarity so that your position could be reviewed and so that I or someone else could take action in regards to it. Text book definition? That could be argued one way or another. Honestly wouldn't likely be such an interesting conversation. So let's not bother with it because in the end there's this whole BLP policy. This detracts from the tone. That is not written responsibly, cautiously, or with a dispassionate tone. It's written specifically in wikipedia voice to attack Emerson. He has been discredited in the past in his field as a "Terrorism expert". He's also continued in that field since then and has been received as a credible source by mainstream media, government, law enforcement, and perhaps others. It's not wikipedia's place to endorse this opinion, only to record it. Yes there is a reason why there I attributed this to only one source, because there this was the only source used[31]. No I don't think that misleads readers into thinking it comes from one source. I think this is the first time I've ever seen this particular argument. I find it ridiculous and unnecessary, but I see no problem with you adding other sources for this opinion and attributing them as well. In regards to Ernst, I was referring to the final paragraph of the section titled "reception" the only place I see specifically where Ernst is mentioned as a source (Not sure if that's in a foot note section of the book. Doesn't look like it. I don't have a full copy of the book but it does seem to be in a section of the book written by Juliane Hammer. Does anyone have a full copy of the book that can verify? The citation seems to be fine but the article attribution directly to Ernst may not be.) Your prior comments were rather verbose. I had assumed that you were discussing something in that article as opposed to something lacking from the article. I also in relation to that asked you to either fix it or be more specific so I or someone else can review this and fix it. If you would like to attribute Ernst or anyone else who stands as a reliable source that says that Emerson is an Islamophobe or discredited terrorism expert then please do. I don't find it necessary. I have no problem with anyone doing this however. The lock on the page is for two months but it can actually be unlocked before that. So lets get a consensus and move on. So is there anything that hasn't been addressed in some way and we should address the current Ernst attribution that is already contained in the article.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:13, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Justin Harris AR. Legislator

To whom it may concern,

This story has recently hit some of the news sources throughout our country not as many as I would have hoped. I have noticed as of today that a team or at least a few have been scrubbing his Wiki page. I have done so with my own eyes. Why this is important is that the facts are that he is still making laws, he still has a school all of which pertain to children. He is now hiding the fact that he is more culpable than what it was showing and that the crime was more than just diddling. It also does not include the fact that he has been using all but 6% of taxpayers money to fund his Christian school. This is very distressing that he can create his own picture en-light of what the news has worked so hard to get out there. I would ask that you look at Arkansas Times, Wonkette, Raw Story and Time. Thank you for your eyes, Anna Hoffmann104.229.10.241 (talk) 22:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Manohar Aich

Under "feats" is listed a squat of 300kg. This has no source and is almost definitely false - at 54kg the world record is 290kg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.2.31 (talk) 00:20, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I removed the entire section as it was unsourced and far too promotional. If it is to be added back, sources will need to be provided. Meatsgains (talk) 02:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Andrulla Blanchette

Andrulla Blanchette (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Persistent edits by a possible COI account, primarily removing sourced content for unsourced content they prefer. I've reported to AIV, but in the dearth of response this continues, and I've no desire to edit war. Help would be appreciated. 2602:302:D89:A9C9:84E6:720C:31CA:6D3 (talk) 03:09, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• The user has since been blocked by Materialscientist. Thanks. 2602:302:D89:A9C9:84E6:720C:31CA:6D3 (talk) 03:29, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

That article is a mess. I've trimmed the area of contention down to the basic facts - that will suffice. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Brandon Davies

On Brandon Davies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Ballin890 insists that Davies#650640817 650640726 should be removed from the article (note that this happened several times and you can look back through the history). He received several warnings, including a final warning and that was taken to AIV but referred back here. Ballin890 said in an edit summery that "Please keep that information out of Brandon Davies Wikipedia page. He has a family now and does not need to be remembered by a mistake he made when he was 19 years old. I understand it was in the media and still can b [edit summery cut off]", but when approached on his talk page he agreed to stop until it was settled, and at the time of this post hasn't gone back on that. Kharkiv07 (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

At this time you can also see his contributions, as they're all related to the matter at hand. Kharkiv07 (talk) 19:26, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I reverted the first few deletions. The user never responded in the article talk page, his talk page, my talk page or even in an edit summary until on the verge of being blocked. I feel like the information should be in the article. It is brief and not overly sensational, it was heavily covered in the American press at the time that it happened - literally by all major national sports news outlets and many non-sport news outlets - see results for simple Google search for "Brandon Davies dismissal" here). We keep much, much worse transgressions committed by public figures so long as they are properly sourced (note to my British friends - top-level college sports are covered at the same level in the US as top-level professional leagues in most countries). Taking it out not only feels like censorship, but it doesn't answer the question as to why he missed half a season. In addition to violating the 3RR, this editor has also now deleted all of the warnings on his talk page related to this and seems to be a COI case as well. Rikster2 (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Heads up, I just made a new edit to this controversial section of the article. My rationale is explained in the edit summary. I invite everyone's review and comments. Townlake (talk) 15:45, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@Townlake: Your edit mentioned "it references the SLTrib, which itself does not actually verify exactly what Davies did. " The SLTrib qualifies it's claim with "... The Salt Lake Tribune has learned."[32] I don't see any reason to doubt that this major newspaper did not verify what it reported and should be considered slanderous. Its report from 2011 has become accepted as fact over time. For example, a 2014 article in the Los Angeles Times makes the same claim about Davies without qualification.[33]. At the very least, this should be in the article attributed to the SLTrib. However, WP:NPOV advises: "Avoid stating facts as opinions."—Bagumba (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. The LA Times "article" you linked to is a guy-at-the-bar opinion column that isn't even pretending to be journalism, so let's leave that aside. Your wide acceptance argument is flawed -- literally all the sources I saw for "Brandon Davies" and "premarital sex" eventually trace back to that anonymously-sourced SLTrib article. It's an article which I don't believe Davies has ever challenged, but maybe that's because Davies' real transgression was worse than what was reported? If all he did was diddle his girlfriend, why would he have been so distraught? We simply don't know enough. That article notes that the school refused to provide the details of the honor code violation, and the kid never talked about the specific issue publicly to my knowledge, so all you have to go on are unnamed sources who might or might not have full information. The SLTrib and the numerous other media organizations that cited to it as though the unnamed sources were gospel are allowed to have low fact-checking standards, but Wikipedia does not have that luxury, especially for BLPs. Do you disagree? Townlake (talk) 02:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Given its prevalence in sources years later, and the fact that the report has never been challenged, I think you are arguing to be conservative and attribute the report to SLTrib per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV? Another option is WP:PUBLICFIGURE, which advises to use "alleged".—Bagumba (talk) 02:38, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

No, it's out entirely. It's a prurient detail that is unnecessary to understand the subject of the article, we have no way of evaluating the veracity of the claim since it was made anonymously, the organizations that could verify the claim have refused to, and the accuracy of the claim is relevant to the reputation of a living person. I might feel differently if this was a crime, but come on man... this is just about a college dude possibly diddling his girlfriend. That is unremarkable, and it doesn't need to be mentioned in his encyclopedia biography. In fact, for an LDS/BYU kid, having this scarlet letter-type idle gossip attached to his bio is probably more harmful than it would be for a non-Mormon. Townlake (talk) 03:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

On top of the above, the school releasing the details of Davies' violation would have been a clear violation of FERPA, which usually forbids public disclosure of student disciplinary records in the absence of criminal activity. No wonder the SLTrib's sources wanted to be anonymous, and no wonder neither the school nor Davies went on record to clarify what actually happened. The fact that America's TMZ-esque sports media ate up the sketchy SL Trib story without questioning it doesn't mean we should do the same thing. Townlake (talk) 15:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Menendez / TDC

The Daily Caller#Controversies needs attention from someone more familiar with BLP issues than I. There is sufficient RS coverage of TDC's involvement in this scandal about Bob Menendez that it warrants coverage in our TDC article. What I'm stuck on is how to do this while protecting Menendez's BLP rights. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I'm having second on whether there should be any coverage of this in the TDC article at all. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Chip Coffey

Chip Coffey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Content on this page may be legally considered libelous and appears to be posted solely for the purpose of defaming Chip Coffey. No rebuttal information has been posted on this page. 2601:0:AB80:1BF:C806:F517:7383:FC21 (talk) 23:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

For context, this IP has now been blocked for repeatedly blanking the article and tagging it {{db-attack}}. A quick read through the Criticism section appears to show that it is properly sourced documentation of criticism the subject has received. --Nick—^Contact/_Contribs 23:58, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Bob Hall (Texas politician)

Incredibly biased article. Reads like a glowing biography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.246.61.190 (talk) 06:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I've toned it down a bit, could probably benefit from more work.--ukexpat (talk) 13:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any specific complaints, IP Editor?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any bias is the article. I visited to the page ready to balance it out and only made minor tweaks to some sentences. Meatsgains (talk) 02:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Just linking to the article, no opinion here. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:41, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Munya Mataruse

this is not the place for a draft article, please see WP:AFC.--ukexpat (talk) 12:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Munya Mataruse is a Norton based musician born in Chegutu on the 22nd of January. Music Description: Afro Fusion , Shangara. He runs a Five piece band Kazevezeve( meaning the Whisper) Can perform solo performances or band performances Deputations are  : Munyaradzi Mataruse( Acoustic Guitar/ vocals), Alice Muringayi (backing vocals), Simbarashe Navaya (Bass Guitar), Watson Jnr Chidzomba (Drums), and Tari “G-Fingers” Mufari (Guitar) . He formed the band in 2005 by at Pakare Paye Arts Centre which is an arts organization formed and is managed by Oliver Mtukudzi. His music is a unique blend of styles ranging from Afro Jazz, Katekwe, Shangara and Jiti (the local traditional Zimbabwean genres). His sound is recognizable with intensely catchy Zimbabwean melodies and smooth vocals. With the help from Pakare Paye Arts Centre he managed to do numerous performances to school based audiences, weddings, community galas, birthday parties, festivals namely: Harare Jazz Festival, Victoria Falls Jazz Festival, Hifa 2010 (solo), Winter Jazz Festival, Ottawa Jazz Festival, Umoja Flying Cultural Carpet and local concerts at different venues.While still taking every opportunity to gigs the band recorded its two albums Denguremhodzi and Pashangara under TUKUMUSIC/ PAKARE PAYE label.Website: www.reverbnation/munyamataruse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Munyamats (talk • contribs) 10:38, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Jihadi John

I just wanted to raise this issue for comment here as the title Jihadi John obviously makes reference to the real Beatle, John Lennon. Lennon, being born within the last 115 years still falls into the remit of WP:BLP. I have never heard of a family member of those killed by Emwazi themselves make any reference to him by the name "Jihadi John" and I certainly haven't heard any politician use the name. We are left in an interesting situation in which, for all I know, no primary source makes use of this designation and where it seems to be an spin or fabrication of secondary sources. I was wondering whether anything could be done about this. There is currently an RM proposing to move the title to Mohammed Emwazi here and an RM associated with The Beatles (terrorist cell) here.

I also have a supposition that, in developing the article a sequence such as the following may have happened. An editor may have heard of relevant topic in the news that could be added to the Jihadi John article. The editor then does an internet search on "topic Jihadi John". They then add another Jihadi John focussed reference to the article.

Even with the source material referenced, the article seems to disproportionately push the name "Jihadi John". For instance, when I added the replacement text "The masked militant in beheading videos" here so as to give a more faithful representation of source material, this change was instantly reverted. It makes no sense to me. GregKaye 16:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

If the name were "Jihadi John Lennon" then that would be more problematic. "John" is a very common name, so there's obviously nothing wrong with using the term "Jihadi John" at Wikipedia. The only issue is whether the name "Jihadi John" really needs to be explained as something more than alliteration. I don't see a problem with briefly explaining that at Wikipedia, even though Ringo is understandably displeased.[34]. Like Ringo, we do not control the facts.*Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:22, 10 March 2015 (UTC) *Except when it proves irresistible to enough editors and administrators.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

No, that's not "the only issue". The main issue is whether the article should be called "Jihadi John" or not. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a BLP issue with the title of that article. It may be preferable to change the title, but not for BLP reasons. The current title does not obviously refer to John Lennon. Even if it did, bad people are named after good people all the time, such as John Wayne Gacy.[35]Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:05, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I think he's slightly different, as he was legally given that name by Mr and Mrs Gacey. (Although of course, his nickname may be considered offensive to certain circus workers and children's party entertainers). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure, every case is slightly different. But fans of John Wayne are generally not thrilled to see the full name of their hero atop an article about a mass murderer. What Hollywood PR person would want that? Anyway, having opined, I'll kick back. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S. The BLP policy says: "Anyone born within the past 115 years is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death." So, the policy could apply here only to "Jihadi John" and not to John Lennon (whose middle name, incidentally, referred to the British Prime Minister).Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:55, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

We are certainly grasping at straws here. WP:RECOGNIZABLE, Jihadi John is the most recognizable name for him. It might gain the annoyance of Beatles fans but that's not anything that remotely matters. Looking at the talk page this seems to be going into the realm of tendentious.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:27, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Probably also annoys some hardline jihadists, being associated with that hippy crap. But aside from all that, we probably mostly know Ali Hassan al-Majid as "Chemical Ali", too. But there he is. Personally, I'd rather "Jihadi John". Catchy. But I'm not Wikipedia. Not really, anyway. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:46, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Use of primary source for validation of revocation of medical license at William C. Rader

William C. Rader (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Is it [36] appropriate to use a primary source to validate that someone's medical license has been revoked when we do not have third parties discussing it? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a cut-and-dried case of WP:BLPPRIMARY to me. — Strongjam (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIMARY merely advises caution when using primary sources, and the stated policy on WP:PRIMARY is as follows:

"Unless restricted by another policy, reliable primary sources may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.

It is unequivocal that Rader had his license revoked for gross misconduct; there is no room for misinterpretation of this fact. One suggestion that I would make however, is to use a better primary source[37] than the spreadsheet entry that was originally linked. The license revocation can also be confirmed by a secondary source.[38] Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:49, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually the revocation was for not following the standard of care and of being "unrepentant." "Gross misconduct" is not found in the actual revocation decision. In the case at hand, the reasoning is clear in the decision. Collect (talk) 20:13, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Daisaku Ikeda

Hello. User:Catflap08 keeps deleting reliably sourced information using a primary source that doesn't even say what Catflap alleges it does.

Background: Daisaku Ikeda and the Soka Gakkai were excommunicated from Nichiren Shōshū in November 1991. Multiple sources (including one from the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies) currently on the page back this up.

Catflap is removing the "and the Soka Gakkai" portion of this equation, making it look like Daisaku Ikeda was singled out for excommunication. He wasn't. The entire organization was excommunicated. The source Catflap is using is purportedly the Nichiren Shōshū's official website[39] But that source itself states the following:

After excommunicating the Soka Gakkai organization, Nichiren Shoshu made continuous efforts to guide compassionately the Gakkai members back to the correct path of faith and practice. For a period of six years after the excommunication, individual Gakkai members who had received Gojukai from Nichiren Shoshu in the past were still recognized as Nichiren Shoshu lay believers. Nichiren Shoshu, however, could not continue with this situation, where a Gakkai member who follows Daisaku Ikeda qualifies as a Nichiren Shoshu lay believer. Nichiren Shoshu doctrine strictly prohibits its laity to hold membership in other religious organizations. On September 30, 1997, Nichiren Shoshu officially decided to terminate the membership of the Gakkai followers. After Nichiren Shoshu extensively notified the Gakkai members of this decision through its in-house publication and other means, the provision that all Gakkai members would lose their standing as Nichiren Shoshu lay believers went into effect on December 1, 1997. Emphasis added.

Not only does the primary source not refute what was on the page, it actually supports it. As I said on the talk page: Soka Gakkai was excommunited in 1991, but individual members were still recognized as lay believers. Six years later, in 1997, the recognition was revoked. When I pointed this out, Catflap's retort was "I was there at the excommunication." While that does raise wp:COI questions, I still don't see where that supports his biased edit to the BLP.

Here's a link to the Talk page, with more info: [40] AbuRuud (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Helooo I included refs by the guys who should know. I am no longer affiliated with either of the two. SGI’s leadership was expelled in 1991 the rest of the bunch in 1997.--Catflap08 (talk) 20:14, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, Catflap deleted sourced information about the excommunication, not expulsion, of Soka Gakkai. They are two different things that he is seemingly conflating to POV push and make it look like Ikeda was the only one excommunicated.AbuRuud (talk) 20:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Catflap, who thinks "X was founded in 1914 and is a successor group to Y founded in 1881 and Z founded in 1885" means the same thing as "X was founded in 1880 under the name Y before changing its name to Z in 1884 and adopting its current name in 1914", should not be taken at his word when it comes to the difference between word meanings. And no, those dates are not misprinted -- he really does appear to have pulled "1881" and "1885" out of his nose. The same abuse of sources is problematic for other reasons. Note that the recent edit war on the Ikeda article involved Catflap claiming a source that doesn't even mention "November 28, 1991" anywhere, and doesn't specifically mention Ikeda being excommunicated either, should be attached to the statement Ikeda was excommunicated by Nichiren Shoshu on November 28, 1991.

I would say that this abuse of sources and the serious CIR issues on display should make Catflap a candidate for an indefinite TBAN on BLPs, if I didn't already think he should be indefinitely blocked for the same reasons.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Abusive behavior is typical of Catflap08. He reverted my edits to the Daisaku Ikeda article in January, even though my contributions were well researched and properly sourced. Catflap08 continually insisted that false and libelous information stay in the BLP about Daisaku Ikeda even though all sources showed it was false and libelous, including the sources Catflap08 himself referenced. Catflap08 refused to allow proper edits and, after being confronted by other users, Catflap08 started a dispute resolution in which he mischievously never named me / never notified me, even though my edits started the dispute. Only at the end of the noticeboard discussion did someone else add me to it out of courtesy, and ultimately the libelous falsehood was removed (although there's still lots of false information in the text that Catflap08 insists on maintaining).

Catflap08 has repeatedly admitted bias against Daisaku Ikeda and Soka Gakkai-related topics, and as such should be banned from continually reverting the proper edits of others to suit his own agenda. Catflap08 is the cause of nearly every Talk Page dispute related to Daisaku Ikeda and the Soka Gakkai. It appears that Catflap08 feels ownership over these topics, against which he has an axe to grind, and his antagonistic behavior shows he is determined to stop anyone else from improving the articles too. His ongoing Wikihounding antics and long-standing biased behavior should qualify Catflap08 for TBAN from Daisaku Ikeda and Soka Gakkai-related articles, and perhaps from all BLPs on Wikipedia.Elemential1 (talk) 17:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue here really doesn't relate so much to BLP as the continuation, or lack of same, of substantially similar religious or parareligious movements with different names. Unfortunately, this is a not uncommon problem regarding some religious groups, which have been known to change their name and possibly/probably other details over the years, often with the change of name being the only substantive change in the group itself. This can be problematic if the change in name is not generally seen by independent reliable sources as being sufficient to differentiate between the differently-named entities in question. Other examples which come to mind almost immediately are the Church Rising and Triumphant/Church Universal and Triumphant, Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Community of Christ, the various adventist groups, and others. A more directly comparable case might be the recent schism in the Armenian Apostolic Church. If it is the case here that the different in name is not seen by others as being sufficient reason to believe the groups themselves are substantially different, then there is no reason why we would necessarily be obligated to observe a differentiation not broadly recognized by independent sources. I would think the best thing to do here would be to ask @Shii: and other editors familiar with Buddhism or Japan in general whether the change of name is sufficient to indicate a change in group structure, or, perhaps, start an RfC on the issue to determine how to proceed. John Carter (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Not really. The issue is that multiple reliable sources state that Daisaku Ikeda and Soka Gakkai were excommunicated at the same time, but Catflap continues to remove the "and Soka Gakkai" part to POV push on a BLP.AbuRuud (talk) 20:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

If that is the case, then there is a question regarding the relevance of the "and Soka Gakkai" material, which is possibly, but not necessarily, directly relevant to the biography of an individual, and the seeming jump to conclusions about the motivations of that editor, which now two editors here have made. WP:AGF would, I think, reasonably apply that an individual who is trying to keep material not necessarily directly relevant to the topic of an individual article is acting in good faith. In all honesty, I find it all but impossible to believe that it is necessarily POV pushing, as two people in this thread have now alleged, to say that material of dubious relevance to the specific article in question has to be included in the interests of some alleged POV violation otherwise. The rather explicit jump to assuming bad faith on the part of two editors here is I believe potentially extremely problematic. And, FWIW, I remember seeing that there is a question regarding the possible differentiation between SG and SGI on the talk page. That raises yet another possibly problematic aspect. The best and I think most reasonable way to handle this would be through an RfC, regarding the specific phrasing of the sentence or broader content to be included, and the reasons for preferring or not preferring one to the other offered at the start of the RfC. But I cannot honestly believe that the assumption of bad faith explicit in the above, particularly without specific diffs to support them, which have not been produced, in any way necessarily provides sufficient reason to believe that there are any violations of BLP by attempting to exclude material of at best dubious relevance to the specific subject of a given BLP article. John Carter (talk) 21:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08's tactics are to add biased and false information to articles, text that doesn't appear in the sources Catflap08 cites (or any other reliable source). The sources do not state Daisaku Ikeda was excommunicated, but that the entire Soka Gakkai was. In the previous case I noted, no source stated that Ikeda struck anyone, but Catflap08 insisted on keeping it in the text even after it was proven false and libelous, which should be immediately deleted WP:LIBEL. If an editor admits bias against a living person then continually frames facts in articles in a negative light against that person, as Catflap08 does, even when sources state differently, that is the definition of bad faith editing.Elemential1 (talk) 21:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, if the sources don't specifically say DI was personally excommunicated, then I have serious questions seeing how any mention necessarily meets BLP requirements. I say this as someone who has reviewed a lot of content regarding Christian schisms and other reigious persecutions, where, in at least some cases where it has been said "X and his followers" or "the Z's" are sanctioned in some way, the lack of individual naming makes it problematic to say "person Y is a follower of X," and in at least some cases makes it possible for various persons "Y" to say that "I'm not a follower of X" or "one of the Z's" (or, maybe, that I am not any longer - linguistic matters can enter in here) and in that can create all sorts of difficulties in determining exactly who did and did not get specifically included in the sanctions. And, I regret to say, unfortunately, your second statement actually is rather poorly supported by policy. If reliable sources say something, honestly, whether that is later found true or false, it can be and sometimes is appropriate to include it, if it meets WEIGHT concerns for the article in question. The first paragraph of Tom Cruise#Litigation, and the history of that article prior to the filing of the lawsuit (I think, I actually haven't checked) provide an indicator of that. The determining factor seems to be how widely the libel/slander is discussed in independent reliable sources. Granted, all articles and topics are different in that regard, but it clearly is not the case that all false information must necessarily be excluded. So, honestly, I regret to say that the explicit assumption of bad faith now made by at least three separate editors seems, once again, to be perhaps dubiously based in policies and guidelines, and that perhaps the explicit failure to assume good faith on that group may be at least as big a problem as any that they are collectively raising. John Carter (talk) 21:45, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I am finding it hard to explain how the following passage can be interpreted as saying that "the entire Soka Gakkai was" excommunicated:

For a period of six years after the excommunication, individual Gakkai members who had received Gojukai from Nichiren Shoshu in the past were still recognized as Nichiren Shoshu lay believers.

The rest of the talk page is mere name-calling, so it didn't help me. Shii (tock) 23:49, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

That passage doesn't say "the entire Soka Gakkai" was excommunicated, but it lends credence to the other (better sourced) references that state the entire Soka Gakkai was excommunicated in 1991. See especially Métraux, Daniel A., "The Dispute Between the Soka Gakkai and the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood: A Lay Revolution Against a Conservative Clergy", Japanese Journal of Religious Studies, 1992, 19/4, pp. 328 and 330 At this point, the dispute is a little convoluted. Please let me attempt to summarize:

1. The page said Ikeda and SG were excommunicated in 1991 (see the Métraux article for proof)
2. User:Catflap08 deleted the "...and SG" stating that they weren't excommunicated in '91, using the reference you're citing. Which doesn't say that SG was excommunicated in 1997.
3. I pointed out that the reference Catflap08 used (and which you questioned) dated "the excommunication" to six years prior to December 1997. So that passage actually implies the opposite of what he alleged (i.e., that "the excommunication" happened in 1997).

The argument about that passage tangential argument that requires some intepretation of the sources, yes. But it's really not necessary to the original debate anyway. The original debate is: Does Catflap's source justify the deletion of reliably sourced information on the page? The answer is no. There is no debate when Ikeda was excommunicated in 91/92. The question is whether or not he was the only SG member to be excommunicated at that time. The answer is no.AbuRuud (talk) 17:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the source quoted by Shii seems to me to specifically contradict any sort of statement to the effect that the "entire" SG was excommunicated, as it seems to rather clearly state that at least some members of SG were still regarded as within the communion. And, actually, I have to say that the final paragraph above is not necessarily helpful. There seem to be to be serious questions whether the RS, as per Shii's quote, agree on whether the members were excommunicated, or whether they by their own actions basically withdrew their membership. There is a significant difference between the two. There also is apparently still a reasonable BLP concern regarding whether Ikeda himself was ever in a formal way excommunicated. If he actively retained membership in SG after the excommunication order was lifted, he may have been treated as out of body convert, but that is not the same thing as excommunication, which is a specifically institutional act as per the first sentence of that article. Therefore, I repeat, I at least see the following problems still remaining:

1) Was Ikeda individually ever formally excommunicated, as per that definition? So far as I can see, no. A more accurate statement, so far as I can tell, might be that those SG was expelled from NS, which addresses what some might consider a legalistic but real and in the cases of BLPs significant fact.

2) Under the circumstances, considering the dubious applicability of the term excommunication and the rather more nebulous term "expulsion," it might be good to indicate what specific effects such an expulsion has in this particular case somewhere. Particularly considering that many if not maybe most of the people expelled might still be living, and that BLP would apply to all of them. Has that been done?

3) But, in all honesty, it seems to me that perhaps the most relevant clearly relevant term here is neither excommunication or expulsion, but apostasy, which term emphasizes the fact that it is the individual him or herself who basically removes themselves from the early group. As i have seen no clearcut indication that a real list of names of excommunicated individuals was ever presented, but please point to where it if it was, the impression I get is that this is most similar to some of the Christian schisms where, basically, the church being schismed from says "you guys aren't in our group anymore," and the schismatics say, "OK, fine by us." Such tends to better be described by the term apostasy. Another term which is used in some cases is "religious conversion," and that might be relevant, but it at least strongly implies the extend of well-defined denominations, and I'm not sure the evidence required for that has yet been presented. John Carter (talk) 17:37, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Even though I have announced my retirement on my talk page. Also due to issues like this one and dealing with editors with a … well what should I say … a problem? On a final note please excuse my foul language but saying that Ikeda was excommunicated along with SG/SGI is simply bullshitting – sorry again. Call it excommunication (a term I find irritating to be used in a Buddhist concept) or expulsion. I myself am by no means a reliable source but I was an adherent of Gakkai at the time – not any more thank goodness. In 1991/92 it was Ikeda and the Gakkai leadership that were expelled, excluded, excommunicated or what have you from Nichiren Shoshu. In effect that means they were not allowed to enter the high temple grounds. It was not until 1997 that the complete Gakkai membership i.e. the Norman Normal Gakkai member were also not allowed to enter temple grounds. I admit that to the willing flock of Gakkai adherents it was always portrayed as that we all since the early 90’s lost our standing as Nichiren Shoshu adherents but it was not until 1997 that there was an official seal to that --- which at the time came as a surprise since we were all cut off from official temple information anyway. So concerning the wording it might be a good idea to use the term regarded as adherents of … as from 1991/92 Ikeda and Gakkai lesdership were not regarded as Nichiren Shoshu adherents and as from 1997 all those who had not signed with an official Nichiren Shoshu temple were also not regarded Nichiren Shoshu adherents anymore. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@Catflap08: In any event I welcome seeing for the first time I think a clear indication of the practical considerations involved in being expelled, specifically, not being any longer allowed to enter (I'm guessing) NS temple grounds. Logically, it would only be at from that point that any sort of recognized excommunication/expulsion could be said to have taken place, as they were, at least theoretically, still able to take part in events on the temple grounds before then as members of the community. The one question I guess which remains open regarding that is specifically how did the temple know who was and was not to be excluded? Was there some sort of list, or was a self-declaration of some sort involved, or something else? John Carter (talk) 19:08, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

André Marin

This article was listed here a week or two ago, and not much has improved (if anything, situation is worse). It has been yo-yoing back and forth between a version that is very critical of the subject, a version that is quite positive towards him, and a stubbed version that (I think?) was supposed to be some kind of interim solution. There are multiple COI'd (by their own admission) editors involved and one or two accounts who only seem to edit this article but haven't declared a COI.

I've been trying to keep an eye on it but could use some advice/help - most recently someone tried to blank the entire page, and then started pasting in old content in plain text (without markup), so quite a mess. @Jytdog: was doing a pretty good job of it for a while but I think they've un-followed the article after this exchange on the talk page.

I'm not sure how this sort of situation is usually managed, so some help/advice would be very welcome. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikimandia seemed to have very strong ideas about how to proceed. If Wikimandia is not going to do anything after all I'll go back to trying to rebuild them. Just let me know. Jytdog (talk) 11:09, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm still waiting for anything from Abursey. Waiting to be sure if I'm waiting. More sure Wikimandia wasn't serious. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:02, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

nick foles it says in his early years he was born with down syndrome but has recovered

probably should correct as there is no cure as of yet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C:4B80:1FD:7002:F934:4773:4096 (talk) 04:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Basic vandalism, now fixed.--ukexpat (talk) 12:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybelline Masuda

Maybelline Masuda

1. Wikipedia notability criteria not met. 2. Too soon. Achievements mentioned are either from top tier of relatively unknown events / lower skill tier of well known events. Kukurukuku (talk) 11:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see a BLP concern here. Your comments seem more directed toward an AFD discussion. The article sourced and contains nothing controversial that I see. JodyB _talk 12:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Dick Cheney

Does

RS criticizing Cheney as a draft dodger[1], a “self-confessed draft dodger”.

Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP, father of the House of Commons and one of the leading rebel voices against war with Iraq, said: 'This is garbage from right-wing think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks -- men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war. Men like Cheney, who were draft-dodgers in the Vietnam war. 'This is a blueprint for US world domination -- a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world. I am appalled that a British Labour Prime Minister should have got into bed with a crew which has this moral standing.'[2]

fall under WP:BLP noting that "draft-dodger" is an accusation of a crime? ("Refusing to submit to the draft is considered a criminal offense in most countries where conscription is in effect.") I note that there is no source quoting Cheney as saying he was a "draft dodger" - the "self-confessed" source is "A Bush & Botox World" by Saul Landau; AK Press, 2007 - Political Science - 301 pages. That source appears to be " AK Press is a worker-managed independent publisher and book distributor that specialises in radical left and anarchist literature. It is collectively owned and operated." which fails WP:RS no matter who looks at it. Thus using a non-RS source to make a criminal charge about a living person I think might run afoul of policy here.

The editor of course posted [41]

Collect You know that you are supposed to raise BLP claims at the BLP board after deleting text on the basis of a claimed violation of BLP. You need to start following that directive and stop making unilateral pronouncements on such matters.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

As that editor is the one who always says WP:CRYBLP is his favourite essay :), I trust that his demand that I prove that making criminal charges about living persons is covered by this actual policy will be adequately noted. Collect (talk) 15:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the unreliable source for "self-confessed draft-dodger",Saul Landau: He was one of the leaders of the Institute for Policy Studies, whose anti-"militarist" conspiracy-theoretic rightwatch is being added to many BLPs. LLAP,
Dear ODear ODear
trigger warnings 11:14, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Of course it falls under the BLP policy, but are you asking if the policy prevents the source from being used, the answer is no. Clearly though, editors should not be poring over sources just to glean nasty things to call BLP subjects. Is Cheney widely-known as someone who avoided the draft? If so, it may be worth mentioning in proper context and without sensationalistic labels.

You two really need to develop some level of mutual respect and stop belittling each other. This behavior is embarrassing to the project, and it's disruptive.- MrX 15:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Cheney is characterized as a "chicken-hawk", "draft dodger", "self-confessed draft dodger".

The other sources include one by academic historian Joseph R. Conlin[42], a “self-confessed draft dodger”.

MrX I've simply asked Collect to follow what I believe is the correct procedure. I'm not alone in having doubts about the applicability of BLP here. The "accusation of a crime" angle has first been seen by me here, because Collect does not generally describe his claims of BLP violations in detail.

Please clarify how this violates BLP and how the sources could be used. Note that the text was not inserted in the article by me, and was used in reference to PNAC, with Cheney as a member.

The British MP making the statement against the war seems notable, as well as his characterizations, so is it a policy that "pejoratives" are not used in BLPs? In that case, simply paraphrase the sources and cite them?

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:37, 15:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

What encyclopedic content are you proposing that would depend on those sources? Just because something is not a BLP violation doesn't mean that it belongs in a biography.- MrX 15:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The article in question isn't a biography, it's Project for the New American Century. The mention of Cheney is incidental to the point being made, which is that critics of the org. have criticized its members for being pro-war but avoiding service themselves. I don't love that section of the article myself but my two cents is that it's clearly marked as 1 persons opinion, is reliably sourced, and makes an accusation re Cheney that many other RS have made or noted. so I'm not sure where the BLP problem is. Fyddlestix (talk) 18:56, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

BLP applies to all articles and all Wiki pages where living persons are being discussed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: Roger that - I didn't mean to suggest that the policy doesn't apply, was just trying to answer Mr. X's question about what the quote is being used for.Fyddlestix (talk) 19:20, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Did you mean Project for a New American Century? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:04, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Yup, fixed it, thanks! Fyddlestix (talk) 21:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

No problem. Delete this whole correction (for posterity), if you want. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:08, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

The quote from the British MP speaking for itself seems fine to me in the PNAC article. It addessed Cheney but also the illegitimate warmongering to invade Iraq. If it's not a BLP violation then it should be restored as far as I can tell. It is a criticism relevant to PNAC, first and foremost ("right-wing think tanks"), and Cheney as a prominent member of that organization that promoted the invasion of Iraq, and as the VP.

Here is a peer-reviewd source that notes both Newsweek and The Nation with respect to the "chickenhawks" characterization, and also mentions avoiding the draft.War Beyond the Battlefield, edited by David Grondin, Routledge, 2012

When I checked the Cheney BLP and noticed there wasn't anything there, and then checked the talk page to see the "Wikiganda" section, I decided to post the citations and quote there. I think you wording about "being criticized for avoiding the draft would be more appropriate for the BLP, but the quotes and more pejorative characterizations by mainstream sources seem appropriate to me on the PNAC article.
--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:16, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Cheney got five deferments, four for being a student, and then one for being a new father.[43] Certainly that's worth mentioning in the Cheney article. It would also make him a chicken hawk, provided he deliberately went to school --- or reproduced --- to avoid the draft. Therefore, if a reliable source asserts that those things were done for that purpose, then by all means include the chickenhawk accusation in Cheney's article; in contrast, unsupported accusations of being a "chickenhawk" are about as BLP-compliant as other unsupported accusations ("scumbag," "dumbass," et cetera). If the "chickenhawk" accusation is included, then any defense by Cheney should perhaps be included too, for example if he ever defended himself by saying that Vietnam was an unjustified and poorly executed war whereas the ones that he started were marvels of good planning and good intentions.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the link, I've just wiklinked to the correct article (even though the meaning is defined in the quote).--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Reverted, per WP:MOS, following recent warnings from Bishonen (talk · contribs) and myself (noted on talk page of PNAC). LLAP,
Dear ODear ODear
trigger warnings 11:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

An en passant quote "I had better things to do" is not being a "self-c0nfessed drat-dodger" by a mile. Accusing a person of being a "draft dodger" is, in fact, an accusation of a crime. "I had better things to do" is not an admission of a criminal act. Period. Collect (talk) 12:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

You removed part of the quote, which was selectively incomplete to begin with. The rest of the quote should probably be removed until the dispute is settled.- MrX 12:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree, no point in keeping a gutted quote. I'll remove it for now - but I must say I'm disappointed to see Collect editing it this way when he clearly does not have consensus to do so, either here or on the talk page, and knows full well that the edit will be controversial. Fyddlestix (talk) 12:56, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Where anything is a violation of WP:BLP (such as making a claim of criminal activity) the policy requires removal. Following absolute policy is not "controversial" - it is violating policy which is "controversial." Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:45, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm well aware of what the policy is, that's not the issue here. The issue is that myself and several other editors think you're being over-zealous in your interpretation of BLP policy, and that the quote isn't a violation. I've repeatedly asked you explain in greater detail exactly which BLP policy the quote runs afoul of, and there has been considerable evidence presented both here and on the article talk page which suggests that the allegation is widely made/repeated in numerous reliable sources. That it is not a violation of BLP policy. I'd urge you to read and engage with the arguments other people are making, instead of assuming that your personal interpretation of BLP policy gives you license to ignore and override the input of other editors. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

To expand on this with a more specific point: I think you're off-base to suggest that calling someone a "draft dodger" is an accusation of crime - look the term up in dictionaries and you'll find that while some of them specify that "draft dodging" refers to illegal draft evasion, others have a much broader definition, which includes seeking deferments and other exemptions. The OED, for example, defines "draft dodger" simply as "a person who has avoided compulsory military service" - with no requirement that the tactic used to avoid the draft be illegal. As popularly/widely used, the word "draft dodger" does not necessarily refer to someone who broke the law, and you're over-reaching by calling this a "claim of criminal activity." Fyddlestix (talk) 16:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Disappointment is part of life, but it often stems from inflated expectations or misapprehensions---the latter being relevant here. Collect and all other editors are requested immediately remove any BLP-violations. Period.

Speaking of BLP violations, the Jew-labeling continues at PNAC-founder Robert Kagan and his wife Victoria Nuland---as an added payback, the names of their minor children are being added, once again. Anybody who cares about BLP should help out. (And this has been going on since 2008.)
LLAP,
Dear ODear ODear
trigger warnings 15:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

You're assuming that the quote is/was an actual BLP violation. As far as I can tell, however, you and Collect are the only people who've tried to spin it that way. Plenty of other editors have expressed the opinion that there's nothing wrong with the quote. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:45, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the assertion that it is an "accusation of a crime" is not sustainable, because it is common parlance for avoiding the draft as well.

Deleting the material against consensus would seem to be problematic insofar as there has not been a determination here that it represents a BLP violation, which serves as the basis for the removal.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a BLP violation to include accusations of "draft-dodging" or being a "chickenhawk" while excluding reliable sources that call such charges "ridiculous".[44]Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:26, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

So you would support "ridiculous draft-dodging chickenhawk"? - MrX 20:43, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Almost. :(Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

"Draft dodging" is, indeed, a criminal offense. Contentious claims, such as a person calling another person a criminal, do fall under WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

"Draft dodging" has, as far as I know, no legal definition. It's a colloquial term that covers everything from fleeing to Canada to gaming the system. As such, "draft dodging" does not necessarily imply a crime. And regardless of that, we are perfectly able to include reliably sourced notable accusations, as long as we don't adopt them in Wikipedia's voice. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:58, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Roderick Scott

To whoever this concerns,

I'm trying to create an equal opportunity for Mr. Roderick Scot as it appears on Wikipedia as they compare to Mr. George Zimmerman. It appears Mr. Scot has significantly less information compared to Mr. Zimmerman - most likely due to the high profiled issues. If you would please post more info in an unbiased manner I would be most appreciative. Mr. Scot has significantly less in his bio than what he should be given credit to. Thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRC1015 (talk • contribs) 08:23, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Which page are you referring to? Our article on Roderick Scott refers to a retired football player and I'm unclear how that relates to George Zimmerman. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to the Roderick Scott who was acquitted on manslaughter charges in 2009, [45][46] rather than the Roderick Scott (a former Canadian soccer player) we have an article on. If so, I have to suggest that 'equal opportunities' have no bearing on the matter - what matters is the depth of coverage in published reliable sources. The Scott case seems to have attracted relatively little media attention, and accordingly there is little to base an article on - and the details were very different from the Zimmerman case anyway, so the comparison is of little relevance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:52, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Land Tawney

Land Tawney (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

A newly-created biography of a "liberal activist" that came to my attention via a post on the COI noticeboard [47]. It reads like an attack piece in my opinion, and does little to establish the individual's notability. I'm tempted to at least PROD it, but would welcome a second opinion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

All this article is at the moment is a WP:COATRACK for fringe right-wing talking points, but once those are scrapped, there are a handful of reliable sources that'd probably let it scrape by WP:N. Tarc (talk) 16:21, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Please note COIN discussion Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Environmental_organization_articles. This is messy. Jytdog (talk) 01:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

G. Edward Griffin and libelous descriptors

G. Edward Griffin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Can we say at G. Edward Griffin that he and his book "promotes conspiracy theories"? Consensus on the talk page says we can, but as an outsider to the article before a few days ago, it concerned me as potentially libelous since he describes his book as factual. Media Matters uses "promoting wild conspiracy theories" to describe his other works. The subject himself has stated the the term is a pejorative: "There is nothing about my work that merits being classified as a conspiracy theory. In modern context, it is customary to associate the phrase 'conspiracy theory' with those who are intellectually handicapped or ill informed. Using emotionally loaded words and phrases to discredit the work of others is to be rejected." Wikipedia BLP rules demand that we reject it too. The pros and cons of his book on the Federal Reserve are discussed in an appropriate section, this debate is about the lede. UPDATE: The word "quackery" has just been restored to the BLP which I find libelous. There already was a qualifying statement the the FDA found the drug ineffective which is neutrally worded. I was listening to an interview with Penn Jillette a few days ago and he told about how they could not use the word "quack" on their show Bullshit! because it was libelous, so they so they had a sord of ducks roaming the set making the duck noise, without themselves using the word. BLP rules demand it be removed, but a not previously-involved editor needs to get involved. Consensus should not be allowed to override using such a strong and libelous word, when neutral wording already exists that does not libel. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:44, 12 March 2015 (UTC) "if one calls people liars and quacks one can be sued ... but 'assholes' is pretty safe. If we said it was all scams we could also be in trouble, but 'bullshit,' oddly, is safe." - Penn Jillette.

"American magician, juggler, comedian, musician, inventor, actor, and best-selling author" -- I don't see lawyer in that list. Not exactly an authority on libel, I'd say. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:21, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• You do not need to be a lawyer to recognize libel, ultimately a jury of 9 non-lawyers decide when it is brought to a courtroom. I doubt that any of the editors that will decide this incident are lawyers either. Even if they are lawyers, I doubt they are libel lawyers. Even if they are libel lawyers, I doubt that they are libel lawyers representing the Wikimedia Foundation. This isn't a legal decision involving lawyers, it is about enforcing the Wikipedia rule: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libelous." Even the chatter on the talk page calling him a crank should be removed. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I prefer to avoid the use of contentious labels in a BLP but in the rare instances they are included, such use should require RS with inline text attribution. Contentious labeling has been an ongoing debate at Griffin, giving rise to numerous debates. The first RfC determined the use of the label conspiracy theorist in the first sentence of the lead to be fundamentally noncompliant with NPOV. I don't understand why it wouldn't also be considered noncompliant throughout the article. Far better terminology would be words like perceived conspiracy, or controversial topics or conspiratorial view. I oppose the use of promotes conspiracy theories, or is a conspiracy theorist because they are pejorative terms. The same applies to quackery and crank. I also oppose using such contentious material as section titles. As an involved editor at Griffin since 12/10/14, I'll wrap it up here to make room for input from new blood. Atsme☯^Consult 02:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The words should never be used for a living person, you can always fish around till you find someone that uses libelous language and then provide a reference to that source, but that is still libelous. It is just repeating libel. You don't say someone is a quack or supporting quackery. You say they support alternative medicine which has not been found to be clinically efficacious. You use the language of an encyclopedia. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:24, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Jo Frost

Jo Frost (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Long-term, ongoing issues with IP-based editors making advertorial and promotional edits. Comments left for IP-based editors and throwaway accounts are ignored. May eventually request semi-protection but additional watchers would be appreciated. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 21:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

University of Oklahoma SAE incident

2015 University of Oklahoma Sigma Alpha Epsilon racism incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

As I'm sure most people have heard, there was an incident at the University of Oklahoma concerning a song sung by members of this fraternity which resulted in the chapter being shut down and two students being expelled. There are other issues that might raise BLP concerns, but my question focuses on these issues:

• Is the assertion that the constitutional rights of the expelled students were violated subject to BLP?

  I suspect that it is, since expulsion is the action of a living person (OU President David Boren)

• Are the sources sufficient to support the assertions about Boren's actions
• And if it is, is the following assertion an acceptable summary of the cited sources?

Some scholars have raised issues related to protections guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. First Amendment law specialist and UCLA Law professor Eugene Volokh asserted that President Boren's actions were unconstitutional and that the University had no legal right to expel the students. Oklahoma State University media law associate professor Joey Senat stated that the chant was offensive but is still protected free speech.

References

Accusing someone of violating another's constitutional rights is a serious accusation, and the sources feel light-weight in that regard. But Volokh is an expert here. And yet - his opinion is in an Op-Ed. The LA Times article has a counterpoint defence of Boren, but it's not in the article. Should it be?

I don't have an outcome I'm looking for people to support or shoot down. But I'm very interested in what thoughts people here might think. Guettarda (talk) 00:05, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Please remember than Wikipedia is not censored. This is cited by prominent scholars and thus should not be redacted.Zigzig20s (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

As long as the opinions are attributed I think it's appropriate to report them, as well as appropriate balancing with contrary viewpoints as reported in major media. This issue has been widely discussed and reported; from the first page of GNews, here's The New York Times ("Expulsion of Two Oklahoma Students Over Video Leads to Free Speech Debate"), here's Al Jazeera ("Univ. of Oklahoma expulsions infringe free speech rights, experts say"). This is an important part of the controversy.--Arxiloxos (talk) 01:29, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

List_of_state_and_local_political_sex_scandals_in_the_United_States

A one-shot IP removed an item from the list.[48] Another editor has restored it. Forgetting the IP's legal threat (for which he has been blocked), my question here is: If a guy is charged but charges are dismissed, is it a BLP violation to include it in the list? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:51, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

That is one of the perennial BLP questions. In the past the question has been rephrased as "did the incident have a lasting impact on the individual's career or life?" In this case I suppose that's applicable since he resigned from office. In any event, we should be following up and adding balancing information whenever possible. To me that entire article is a big violation of WP:NPF. Blue links already cover the "scandals" for each individual so we should not be documenting more of them when they involve people that don't merit a standalone article to begin with, especially given the subject matter. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 04:02, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Looks like the main problem here is guilt by association. The people who did really scandalous stuff are mixed in with the people who were wrongly accused. Wikipedia already has lists like List of wrongful convictions in the United States and List of professional sportspeople convicted of crimes. Imagine the uproar if we instead had List of wrongful convictions in the United States mixed with the rightful convictions or List of professional sportspeople convicted of crimes mixed up with acquittals.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:16, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

• That list is a mess. So many BLP violations and some very ambiguous inclusion criteria. Some pretty POV narratives too. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:23, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm no expert—and have never really given WP:BLP a thorough read—but it seems a list like that, which is prone to being outdated as we saw here, is more trouble than it's worth and might result in unintentional BLP violations simply by the passage of time. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 22 Adar 5775 04:48, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

IMO, WP:BLP requires that we avoid doing harm to living persons. This "list" seems specifically intended to "do harm" to living persons. In short, we should delete such "lists" whose sole aim is to connect persons with crimes, or imply that they are guilty of crimes, for which they were not convicted. (I grant an exception for people killed while committing violent crimes, but that is a small minority). Collect (talk) 11:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

List of Members of the Administration of George W. Bush who are strongly associated with Project for the New American Century (since renamed to List of PNAC Members associated with the Administration of George W. Bush)

Lists people who signed a letter which was created by people in PNAC as being "strongly associated with PNAC." I would note this is the very essence of "guilt by association" and SYNTH - asserting that anyone who has ever signed a letter from a group is now a "member" of such a group or "strongly associated" with the group. For a person to be "strongly associated with any group" requires more than "he signed a letter". Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:52, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

• Since you failed to notify any of the concerned parties I have done so. Jbh (talk) 13:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict):If there are no sources that clearly bring these people under the umbrella of PNAC and Bush, it may be a conjectural interpretation of a source(s). Lists need to have sources for the overall subject of the list that corresponds with the inclusion criteria. In its simplest form, that means that reliable sources have published such a list, or discussed the members of the list in the context of PNAC and Bush.- MrX 13:38, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Each of the connections, as far as I know/can tell, has been reliably sourced. Collect just refuses to accept/acknowledge those sources, and refuses to clearly explain where the "SYNTH" is, even when repeatedly and directly asked to do so, and after having it repeatedly explained to him that the table is not drawing unsourced conclusions or connections. See the links in my post below if you can stand to read through it all, but that's basically my understanding of the situation. This has been discussed many times over, Collect just stops engaging and starts a new discussion elsewhere whenever someone asks him to make a more specific argument or clearly explain where the "synth" is. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:54, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Do we really need to discuss this again? It's been discussed here already, as well as here and here and here at (great) length. There are sources that clearly indicate each of these individuals' connections to both PNAC and the Bush Administration, and there are other sources which clearly indicate that the Bush Admin and PNAC had many personal connections/shared many personnel in general terms (I can link some of them here, but they've already been cited and linked repeatedly in the discussions I just linked. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Is this the kind of source you are looking for? From Gonzalez, George A. Energy and Empire SUNY Press pp.72ff"Signers of [the PNAC Iraq letter] were placed within key foreign pilicy-making positions within the George W, Bush administration." The source goes on to list Donald Rumsfeld and ten of the seventeen other signers: Elliot Abrams, James Woolsey, Paula Dobriansky, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr, Robert B. Zoellick, Richard Armitage, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard perle and John Bolton. Later on the same page:"The most significant PNAC member in the Bush administration... was Vice President Dick Cheney" There are many similar things in RS but this seems pretty clear.Jbh (talk) 14:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Anybody writing about "member" of PNAC is not serious, even if it got published by a weak university press. PNAC is a contentious topic, and anybody who cares about the encyclopedia should be using only high quality sources, instead of knowingly citing junk to support their POV.

There is no point trying to edit such articles.
LLAP,
Dear ODear ODear
trigger warnings 14:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The reliably published statements in peer-reviewed academic sources are highly valued in the content creation endeavor here per WP:RS. The people published in those books are, in fact, very serious people, and you are not in a position to say otherwise. Even if you were to find a mistake in their text, all you should do is point that out so that it's relevance can be collaboratively ascertained.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:31, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

{ec}} The State University of New York (SUNY) press "a weak university press" the mind boggles. Jbh (talk) 14:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

• Article seems to serve no purpose other than for left wing zealots to promote some sort of quasi conspiracy theory. I guess this harkens back to when Dick Cheney was considered to be Darth Vader by the childish and ignorant left so these must all be Imperial Storm Troopers or something. Only an adolescent mind would find this SYNTH violation and possible BLP violation to be even slightly enlightening.--MONGO 14:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

It would suggest targets for more Jew-tagging and accusations of dual loyalty, which would boost the traffic for the WMF quarterly reports.
LLAP,
Dear ODear ODear
trigger warnings 14:40, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Robert W. McChesney

Article was a truly stunning piece of self-promotion. I trimmed it per a report at COIN, and there is now edit warring going on, with Bakoebel (a new user, apparently with his own COI issues), restoring unsourced content. More eyes would be great, thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Needed more depuffing. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:45, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

See also John Bellamy Foster for a similar BLP. Collect (talk) 12:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)