List new suggestions here, under the date the article was created or the expansion began (not the date you submit it here), with the newest dates at the top. If a suitable image is available, place it immediately before the suggestion. Any user may nominate a DYK suggestion; self-nominations are permitted and encouraged.
contain more than 1,500 characters (around 1.5 kilobytes) in main body text (ignoring infoboxes, categories, references, lists, and tables). This is a mandatory minimum; in practice, articles longer than 1,500 characters may still be rejected as too short, at the discretion of the selecting administrators.
cite their sources (these sources should be properly labelled; that is, not under an "External links" header); and
be no more than five days old (former redirects, stubs, or other short articles whose main body text has been expanded fivefold or more within the last five days are acceptable).
Articles on living individuals must be carefully checked to ensure that no unsourced or poorly sourced negative material is included. Articles and hooks which focus unduly on negative aspects of living individuals should be avoided.
Articles with good references and citations are preferred.
To count the number of characters in a piece of text, you will need to use a JavaScript extension like User:Dr pda/prosesize.js (instructions on the talk page), a free website like this, or an external softwareprogram that has a character-counting feature. For example, if you are using Microsoft Word, select the text from the article page (or, in the case of "Did you know" nominations, this Talk page) – not the edit page containing Wikitext – then copy and paste it into a blank document. Click "Tools" ("Review" in Office 2007), then "Word Count", and note the "Characters (with spaces)" figure. Other word processing programs may have a similar feature. (The character counts indicated on "Revision history" pages are not accurate for DYK purposes as they include categories, infoboxes and similar text in articles, and comments and signatures in hooks on this page.)
Suggested facts (the 'hook') should be:
interesting to draw in a variety of readers,
short and concise (fewer than about 200 characters, including spaces),
Please note that hooks are subject without notice to copyediting as they move to the main page. The nature of the DYK process makes it impractical to consult users over every such edit. In particular, hooks will be shortened if they are deemed too long: the 200-character limit is an outside limit not a recommended length. Also, watch the suggestions page to ensure that no issues have been raised about your hook, because if you do not respond to issues raised your hook may not be featured at all.
Suggested pictures should be:
suitably and freely (PD, GFDL, CC etc) licensed (NOT fair use) because the main page can only have freely-licensed pictures;
attractive and interesting, even at a very small (100px-wide) resolution;
already in the article; and
relevant to the article.
formatted as [[Image:image name |right|100x100px| Description]] and placed directly above the suggested fact.
Suggested sounds should have similar qualities to pictures, and should be formatted using the format {{DYK Listen|filename.ogg|Brief description}}
Proposed lists should have two characteristics to be considered for DYK: (i) be a compilation of entries that are unlikely to have ever been compiled anywhere else (e.g. List of architectural vaults), and (ii) have 1,500+ character non-stub text that brings out interesting, relational, and referenced facts from the compiled list that may not otherwise be obvious but for the compilation.
Please sign the nomination, giving due credit to other editors if relevant. For example:
*... that (text)? -- new article by [[User]]; Nom by ~~~~
*... that (text)? -- new article self-nom by ~~~~
*... that (text)? -- new article by [[User]] and ~~~~
*... that (text)? -- Article expanded fivefold by [[User]]; Nom by ~~~~
*... that (text)? -- Article expanded fivefold and self-nom by ~~~~
*... that (text)? -- Article expanded fivefold by [[User]] and ~~~~
When saving your suggestion, please add the name of the suggested article to your edit summary.
Please check back for comments on your nomination. Responding to reasonable objections will help ensure that your article is listed.
If you nominate someone else's article, you can use {{subst:DYKNom}} to notify them. Usage: {{subst:DYKNom|Article name|May 27}} Thanks, ~~~~
If you want to confirm that an article is ready to be placed on a later update, or that there is an issue with the article or hook, you may use the following symbols (optional) to point the issues out:
Symbol
Code
Ready for DYK?
Description
{{subst:DYKtick}}
Yes
No problems, ready for DYK
{{subst:DYKtickAGF}}
Yes
Article is ready for DYK, with a foreign-language or offline hook reference accepted in good faith
{{subst:DYK?}}
Query
An issue needs to be clarified before the article's eligibility can be determined
{{subst:DYK?no}}
Maybe
Article is currently ineligible but may only need some minor work to fix
{{subst:DYKno}}
No
Article is either completely ineligible, or else requires considerable work before becoming eligible
2024-05-27T00:00:00Z
Backlogged?
This page often seems to be backlogged. If the DYK template has not been updated for substantially more than 6 hours, it may be useful to attract the attention of one of the administrators who regularly updates the template. See the page Wikipedia:Did you know/Admins for a list of administrators who have volunteered to help with this project.
Candidate entries
Articles created/expanded on September 14
... that after writing nine unproduced spec scripts, screenwriterGustin Nash wrote his first successful screenplay, Charlie Bartlett, after his father told him "You can do it"? (self-nom) It'd be great to work in that the premise of the film was of a boy whose mantra was "You can do it" - but we might be approaching the max word count. —97198 (talk) 10:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Australian politician Mick Clough had a son who played interstate cricket for Tasmania and Western Australia? -- new article self-nominated by WWGB (talk) 08:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a possible hook about the subject himself, rather than his son? —97198 (talk) 10:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the complete, power operated, low recoil force gun turret of the Stingray light tank is used on the LAV-600 light armoured vehicle? -- new article self-nom by ChamalTalk± 06:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... why Hui'an maidens(statue pictured) are said to have "feudal heads, thrifty jackets, democratic bellies, and wasteful trousers?" (self-nomination) --GnuDoyng (talk) 06:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the Tang Dynasty general An Baoyu received permission to use the imperial surname Li because he did not want to share a surname with the rebel An Lushan? (self-nomination) --Nlu (talk) 03:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
not uncontroversial, I suppose, but his claims have been held true by the United Nations. The article is extensively sourced in this respect. Punkmorten (talk) 11:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Articles created/expanded on September 13
...that Lydia Thompson(pictured) and her troupe of "British Blondes" introduced burlesque to America in 1868? -- self-nom. Expanded article. Ssilvers (talk) 14:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Prose is only 1285 characters. —97198 (talk) 06:49, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that, with only a small printing of 1,500 copies per issue at its height, the journal Scrutiny was able to help F. R. Leavis, its editor, secure his status as an influential 20th century literary critic? new page, self nom, co-nom Jayvdb (User:Jayvdb). Ottava Rima (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that HMS Vidal, the ship sent to annexeRockall(pictured), happened to be named after Alexander Vidal, the first man to properly survey the islet? - new articles, self noms, Benea (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dates, lengths are good; print reference accepted on good faith. Kablammo (talk) 11:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the Dresden Codex(pictured) is considered by historians to be the earliest known book written in the Americas? new article, self nom by --Doug Coldwelltalk 17:11, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length, date and reference verified.Cbl62 (talk) 19:37, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that although German General Hubert Lanz was involved in several atrocities during World War II, he served only three years in prison? - new article, self-nom by Constantine ✍ 11:26, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that museum examples of sprang were misidentified as lace or knitting until archaeological discoveries brought public attention to the overlooked needlework technique? (expansion from 1 paragraph) DurovaCharge! 10:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length, date and hook verified. Nice work, Durova. :-) -- RyRy (talk) 19:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Charles Ancliffe'swaltzNights of Gladness became such a world-wide hit the BBC named a whole series of programmes after it? Self-nom, --♦ Jongleur100 ♦talk 08:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Commentary: Anyone who has played one game in Major League Baseball can have an article, BUT why should we feature an article on the Main Page about a guy who played in 24 games (and only 30 innings) in his entire career and only won 2? I know we want to encourage new articles, but this is stretching it. In my opinion, a baseball player should have to be truly notable in at least SOME way beyond just playing a few games in the big leagues to be featured in DYK. Cbl62 (talk) 19:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Basically the same thing I was about to say... so I won't repeat it. In the other hand, the hook isn't very interesting, so I wouldn't have verified it anyway. I've seen a baseball DYK about a player who only played at one game in his entire career, which would be Larry Gowell. Though, the hook nominated was very interesting and notable (the ball he hit was accepted into the Hall of Fame since it was the last one before the DH rule), so it was accepted as a result, no matter how many games he played. It's really the hook that matters. This one isn't very interesting. Unless you can find a much more interesting hook for him, we'll accept it. Thanks, RyRy (talk) 19:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with RyRy that there needs to be something interesting about the hook. A player being picked up in March during spring training and then released at the end of March without making the club is simply not unusual, interesting, remarkable, or noteworthy.Cbl62 (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that early 20th century French photographer Robert Demachy took hundreds of photographs and wrote more than one thousand articles and books on photography, but in 1914 he suddenly gave up photography without any notice or explanation? No one has ever found out what caused him to give up his passion, and to this day the reason for the sudden change remains a mystery.Lexaxis7 (talk) 05:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that French photographer Robert Demachy took hundreds of photographs and wrote more than a thousand articles and books on photography, but suddenly gave up the subject without any explanation? (under 200 characters) Kablammo (talk) 11:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Articles created/expanded on September 12
... that the 2006 death of NYPD Detective James Zadroga was the first attributed to exposure to toxic dust at the World Trade Center site, though the circumstances of his death are disputed? - -new artilce, self-nom by Alansohn (talk) 02:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that following a seventeen year campaign, Vijayabahu I successfully reunited Sri Lanka in 1070, the first time in more than a century? -- Article expanded fivefold and self-nom by ChamalTalk± 01:55, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length, date and hook verified. Thank you for your contributions! By the way, User:LAAFan asked me to review this since you are his adoptee. Cheers, RyRy (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
204 character hook. --Rosiestep (talk) 23:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This count was for hook before present wording.Kablammo (talk) 01:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete "extremely" as unnecessary and the second "important". Kablammo (talk) 23:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Date, length, and second part of hook confirmed; source does not explictly say area is an important volcano for subglacial volcanism. Kablammo (talk) 23:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Changed. I said it is an important volcano for subglacial volcanism because its subglacial volcanism appears to be studied in detail almost yearly, which is unlike any other Canadian volcano. Black Tusk (talk) 00:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that although the "Windsor Incident" on American Airlines Flight 96 demonstrated serious flaws in their latching mechanism, changes to the DC-10's cargo doors were only applied haphazardly and two years later Turkish Airlines Flight 981 crashed after suffering exactly the same problem, killing all 36 onboard? Maury (talk) 00:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hook too long. Way past the 200 characters limit. Dr.K. (talk) 00:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the biography Vita Karoli Magni(pictured) on the life of Charlemagne is the first of a European king ever written? new article, self nominated by --Doug Coldwelltalk 19:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does that mean ancient rulers like Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great weren't exactly European, weren't exactly kings, or didn't exactly have ancient biographies? At least the hook sounds wrong without more explanation. Art LaPella (talk) 01:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am certainly not an expert on this subject, so will answer the best I can. Perhaps the hook should be reworded to make it more clear. Changed it a couple of times already, since it didn't look good to me initially.
Wasn't Julius Caesar a ruler of the Roman Empire and Alexander the Great an ancient ruler of Macedonia - which these territories later became "European"? Didn't Charlemagne ("the father of Europe") establish the foundation for a "European civilization" distinct from that of ancient Rome and from the contemporary Byzantine and Islamic Empires? Wasn't the idea of being a united Europe start with his reign? Looking at the article on Europe it says: Charlemagne, a Frankish king of the Carolingian dynasty who had conquered most of Western Europe, was anointed "Holy Roman Emperor" by the Pope in 800. This led to the founding of the Holy Roman Empire, which eventually became centred in the German principalities of central Europe.
The reference source says: The first biography of a European king was Vita, Karoli Magni (Life of Charles the Great), a biography of Charlemagne written circa 830 by Einhard. Do you have a suggestion on a possible alternate hook? I am sure I could agree with whatever you suggest that would make it clearer. --Doug Coldwelltalk
ALT: ... that the Vita Karoli Magni(later version pictured), a biography of Charlemagne, is the first about a medieval European king? Johnbod (talk) 19:57, 13 September 2008 (UTC) or does "first" need an object? The picture is about 400 years after the work was composed, which I think needs saying.[reply]
This alternate hook is acceptable to me. --Doug Coldwelltalk 20:11, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is a lot better. The idea that the concept of "Europe" was essentially born with the Carolingian Empire - though certainly maintained by some historians - is far too contentious to be presented as an objective fact on DYK. Lampman (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that manual typewriter expert Martin Tytell would receive letters addressed to "Mr. Typewriter, New York"? -- new article, self-nom by Alansohn (talk) 17:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OR: ... that after manual typewriter expert Martin Tytell accidentally inverted a key on a Burmese language typewriter he built, it became the standard even in Burma? -- new article, self-nom by Alansohn (talk) 17:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that at one point, the powerful Tang Dynasty eunuch Yu Chao'en was believed to be responsible for instigating the grave robbing of the general Guo Ziyi's father? (self-nomination) --Nlu (talk) 16:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the Vegas Vampire was a television horror host who used to stick pins in voodoo dolls of famous politicians, civic leaders, and celebrities? Article by MrNeutronSF, nom by --Gwib (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A well-written, new article which meets DYK requirements, assuming good faith in use of offline sources. Suggest removing "hate" from hook ("resentment" is sufficient), and stating that it was one of the causes, or led to, the war, as wars typically have multiple causes, and the war started several years after the Drifts Crisis. Kablammo (talk) 11:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done - removed 'hate' from hook --Superflewis (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is flat out wrong. The source indicated that they each, separately passed through, so there could NOT have been any planning by the three. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Further, there's no indication from the source that any of the three even visited the tavern, much less "planned the Texas Revolution". — Bellhalla (talk) 13:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OR
The Block-Catts House was perhaps the most elegant of its kind in the Arkansas of 1832.
Moved from Sept 12 to here, article was created on Sept 7. ww2censor (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
...as a userspace draft rather than an article, but whatever, :) Iain99Balderdash and piffle 00:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I changed "made redundant" to "disproven" because that isn't what redundant means. Art LaPella (talk) 01:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This article is new on the 12th.. article history clearly shows a move from userspace on the 12th. "17:18, 12 September 2008 Iain99 (Talk | contribs | block) m (moved User:Iain99/WAR to World altitude record (mountaineering): Ready for article space) (undo)" ... therefore suggest nom be moved to Sep 12th section. Article length and expansion verified. Hook is sourced. ++Lar: t/c 04:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lar is correct, per Unwritten Rule D-6. The nomination should be moved back, or passed over here, re-posted to the 12th. Kablammo (talk) 15:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Moved back to 12th, you guys are right. I made a mistake moving it down to 7th. ww2censor (talk) 15:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Articles created/expanded on September 11
... that Camarillo Ranch House(pictured), headquarters for "the largest bean ranch in the world", was renowned for its white Arabian stallions that led the Rose Parade? new article, self nom. Cbl62 (talk) 06:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that quintessential Japanese home cooking includes curry, croquettes, pork cutlet sandwich, and other Western-influenced dishes known as yōshoku? -- new article self nom by C S (talk) 00:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that including alternative data in credit files could bring many of the 35 to 54 million Americans unable to get traditional loans into the credit mainstream? -- new article self-nom by User:The PNMThe PNM (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the Tang DynastyeunuchCheng Yuanzhen, after his fall from power, entered the capital Chang'an disguised as a woman to plot his return to power? (self-nomination) --Nlu (talk) 02:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that William Kenrick was described as one of London’s most despised, drunken, and morally degenerate hack writers in the later eighteenth century? Article by this guy, nom by --Gwib (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The "even though" implies some contradiction. The second battle star was earned because the vessel was sunk as a blockship in the invasion; the ship's participation in the battle was to serve as a blockship. It might be better to simplify the hook or find another. Kablammo (talk) 23:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of the sources is that the second battle star was earned because they were in combat (part of which involved shooting down a plane before the ship was sunk), not merely because the ship was sunk. Yes, they were at the Normandy beach because the ship had been pre-selected for sinking, but I don't think the hook is misleading. — Bellhalla (talk) 05:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps "was awarded a battle star for the Normandy Landings, despite being deliberately sunk?" or the like? Shimgray | talk | 23:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that at the time of construction, the pool, 'Tank', at the Sunnyside Bathing Pavilion, was the largest outdoor swimming pool in the world? Created by Alaney2k, nom by --Gwib (talk) 16:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Was or wasn't? Was there a larger indoor swimming pool, then?--Wetman (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did or didn't? "Considered by" whom?--Wetman (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The source (The Telegraph) called it "inevitable". I guess I could find other sources as well. I wouldn't mind dropping the "considered". Do you think we should? -- Nudve (talk) 19:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ALT ... that in the winter, Evens Lake in Egan-Sud, Quebec is home to the largest ice rink built by the MRC? Created by P199, nom by --Gwib (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked, to identify Egan-Sud. "Concentrated" doesn't need "mainly", as it doesn't connote "entirely".--Wetman (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the text-only version ([2]), there are 1,621 characters. But that's with spaces, I'm not sure if the statistics are without. --Gwib (talk) 21:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I also count about 1200. We include spaces but we don't include lists, therefore our rules correspond more to "Proses" than to "Text" on the Readability link above. We consider most of Egan-Sud, Quebec#Demographics to be lists. Art LaPella (talk) 03:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
List changed to prose, 1,702 characters long (again including spaces). --Gwib (talk) 07:38, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the 2004 miniseriesCategory 6: Day of Destruction was a ratings success for CBS, earning the highest ratings of any show during the November sweeps week, yet it was generally panned by critics? -- Article expanded sixfold and self-nom by -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 15:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Which year's sweeps week was it? — Bellhalla (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Woops! Added year to both the original and the alt. -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 01:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
... that Scottish entertainer Will Fyffe once entered a Will Fyffe impersonation contest – and came second? – self nom, article expanded 5X by ♦ Jongleur100 ♦talk 15:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Either hook would be great if the entire article wasn't copy-and-pasted from the various cited sources. —97198 (talk) 07:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would you please take another look at ths ? I worked very hard to make sure that I used on-line sources so that it qualifies for DYK, but it is anything but a straight cut and paste job. Admittedly all the information is available elsewhere but how else do you write a feature on someone who has been dead fifty years? ♦ Jongleur100 ♦talk 08:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've now made some changes and can't see anything in the article, apart from the quotes, that appears verbatim elsewhere. ♦ Jongleur100 ♦talk 09:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the copy-pasting has been fixed, however the article could still do with a good copyedit - I've personally never read a book where sentences had two full-stops (periods) at the end or where sentences didn't have a full-stop at the end. He should also be referred to as "Fyffe" as he's not everyone's best mate Will. I'm also going to tag for POV with statements like "Will Fyffe was a man of great honesty and integrity, and this comes across in his songs when heard today" (which is copy-pasted, by the way) and "A talented young actor...". Irony is subjective, too. —97198 (talk) 10:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Polish mountaineer Tadeusz Piotrowski, one of the finest winter mountaineers of the 70s and 80s, died during descent from K2, after completing the first and only ascent by the "South Face"? --self-nom by Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus, please keep on typing. As of now (Sept. 13) the article has 1,084 chars with spaces, and 914 respectively. You're almost there. --Poeticbenttalk 17:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Only 805 characters of prose, i.e. excluding his list of climbs. —97198 (talk) 07:08, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Size, date are fine; print sources accepted in good faith. Kablammo (talk) 18:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment all sources quoted are available online to check - this one is linked to the google book page.ww2censor (talk) 19:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the seven-mile-long Ventura Mission Aqueduct(ruins pictured), built between 1780 and 1815, has been called "an engineering marvel"? new article, self nom. Cbl62 (talk) 17:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that from its creation in 1963 to its closure in about 2000, the Scottish Tartans Society recorded and documented about 2,700 different designs of tartan? -- new article self-nom by Celtus (talk) 06:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Whitney Darrow, Jr. had over 1,500 of his cartoons published in The New Yorker during a career with the magazine that lasted almost 50 years? -- new article by User:Natcase, expansion and nom by Alansohn (talk) 05:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length, date, and hook fact all verified. Jamie☆S93 17:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that a logocracy is government by words? -- new article, self-nom Malick78 (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This article is currently only 1025 characters in length. The DYK Rules require for the submission to have at least 1500 characters of main body prose. Thanks, Jamie☆S93 17:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True, but there's an overwhelming keep vote there. Seems a little unfair if a tendentious afd can hold up a DYK for 5 days, bu which time it is too late. Perhaps someone could snowball the AfD as there will obviously not be a consensus to delete.--Troikoalogo (talk) 11:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note - the afd has been withdrawn.--Troikoalogo (talk) 15:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I tagged the article with {{copyedit}} and commented on its Talk page. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the phrase lipstick on a pig may have its origins in the eighteen century expression "A hog in armour is still but a hog"? (better hook - less controversial and political - article has stabilised now and the off-topic stuff is gone. (self nom) --Troikoalogo (talk) 15:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC article used elsewhere on the page says 60 were lost. Kablammo (talk) 13:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The 60 in the BBC headline of 5 February referred to 20 each confirmed from the first two ships, plus 19 presumed dead in the Ross Cleveland ( but one was later discovered to have survived), plus one dead from another ship, the Notts County, which was also wrecked in Isafjordur on 4 February but was not a Hull ship. The final official total in the "triple trawler tragedy" itself is indeed 58 - see the new cites provided. Karenjc 14:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length, date, and cite verified. Kablammo (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to find a single incontrovertible and authoritative source to confirm this online - the figure is correct and I have a pic of the official memorials showing all 58 names, but it's in a book and copyright unfortunately. Could always change the hook to "... that the crews of three ships all died, apart from one sole survivor, in the 1968 triple trawler tragedy? Karenjc 15:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I confirmed, on the basis of this BBC source. Is there some doubt as to its reliability? Kablammo (talk) 15:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Only in the sense that, as you quite rightly observed above, other sources like this do get the numbers wrong, and there's no "official" online record to make a nice, easy citation. Karenjc 17:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both the event and the article are well-qualified to be featured in DYK. If you wish you could give an alternate hook such as:
- amended last hook and checked it out. tick Victuallers (talk) 10:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Revised hook sounds fine to me. Karenjc 19:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that underwater visibility can reach 80 metres (264 feet) in the limestonesinkholes of Australia’s Ewens Ponds? – self nom, article expanded 5X by Euryalus (talk) 06:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the only current Britishmedal to retain the head of Queen Victoria on its obverse is the Service Medal of the Order of St John? - Sefl-nom of a new article that I created. The article is now about 2200 characters without spaces, so it should be long enough. There is a good PD image that can be used on the main page.--Evabd 04:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that after 175 years in operation the Red Brick School, one of the nation's oldest single room school houses, closed in 2008? SirFozzie (talk) 22:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs some further expanding at a current 1118 characters. —97198 (talk) 07:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have added quite a lot to this. but hook still needs checking Victuallers (talk) 20:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The hook is not supported by a reference; the town's website referenced for other propositions only states that it "is recognized as the oldest one-room RED BRICK school in continuous operation" (emphasis in original). Kablammo (talk) 21:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the winning players in cricket's Stanford Super Series take home one million dollars each, while the losing players walk away with nothing? SirFozzie (talk) 22:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the fact that "German massacres of Poles" seem to be nominated once or twice every week to be included on the front page, raising concerns about neutrality and agenda-pushing...this article has major NPOV concerns. I've fixed a few of them, but literally dozens remain. Poles "eliminate" Germans while Germans "brutally murder" Poles, &c. There's no chance this can pass NPOV concerns in its present state. Sherurcij(speaker for the dead) 20:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've tagged the article as a possible hoax. It was just to far out for me to believe. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Steve Dufour (talk) 00:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Steve Dufour, please assume good faith, the person who commanded the attack is still alive and seriously I have no idea what you mean by a hoax. There are many things in the world you possibly do not believe in, yet they exist. Sherurcij, please take your time and help out with the article. If you have more sources, please add them and please keep your POV about what is/is not on front page to yourself. This raid was real, I have managed to find one source in German which confirms it. Tymek (talk) 01:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have more sources, I am simply trying to remove some of the rampant POVisms in language from the article; not fact-checking your sources. You can't say that Germans "brutally murdered" Poles, and then say that Poles "eliminated" Germans and such. And it would seem quite silly to nominate something for the front page, and then tell people to keep their opinions about it to themselves. Sherurcij(speaker for the dead) 23:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant by POV was your outlandish statement that German massacres of Poles seem to be nominated once or twice every week. Do you keep tabs on this? Otherwise, you are welcome to present your opinions on this article. Tymek (talk) 03:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Only from yourself, in the past month we have seen one, two, three articles in the past month about massacres of Poles. And others submit them as well. So no, it is not POV to state that these are common, it is easily sourced. Sherurcij(speaker for the dead) 07:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the flag of Tasmania features a red lion passant to symbolise Tasmanians' sense of loyalty to the British Empire? Robert Fleming (talk) 15:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article says "..it is assumed that the red lion is a link with ith England..." and that is not enough on which to base a hook. Boston (talk) 16:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the Tang Dynasty imperial prince Li Chenghong carried the title of emperor for 12 days after invading Tufan forces captured the Tang capital Chang'an and declared him emperor? (self-nomination) --Nlu (talk) 16:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that London's Novelty Theatre, built in 1882, changed its name at least five times in its first dozen years of operation? -- self nom. Ssilvers (talk) 16:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that after the death of Consort Dugu, the favorite concubine of Emperor Daizong of Tang, he was so saddened that he kept her casket in the palace and did not bury her until almost three years later? (self-nomination) --Nlu (talk) 15:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that we should apply that policy so strictly here, since it's primarily meant to avoid shortchanging anyone reading printed versions of pages, and DYK is a web-only aspect of Wikipedia. Although I agree that this link was a little too oblique, sometimes using the exact article title results in some really tortured prose. But we can discuss this on the talk page. Daniel Case (talk) 17:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Date, length & refs all fine, but maybe use "contestant" instead of "finalist" in the hook as a looser term. —97198 (talk) 04:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article was replaced by one written by the Association. I don't know what to do about that. I don't want to edit war. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Someone else changed it back to my version. Maybe there is some more interesting fact in the article that could be used. The group is fairly important, especially now that religious issues are playing such a big part in the election. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Sir John Stonor was one of only two Chief Justices of the Common Pleas to be appointed on three separate occasions? New article, self-nom, 1800 chars. the Reference for that is a bit difficult; I can't find anything specifically stating that, so i've simply linked the list of appointees; you can see from that that he is one of only two yadda yadda. Ironholds 02:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
hmm you don't mean this list do you? As its not a reliable source. If you find a reliable source them add a source to the wikilist as well as that would be brilliant too. (note Xn4 knows a bit about this ...). Oh and your article seems short but I havnt counted the characters. Cheers Victuallers (talk) 11:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I meant the Oxford DNB list; you can tell because that's the ref used in the inline citation. The article is 1800 chars, as I said. I'll add a source to the list once i've finished creating articles on everyone to hold the position since 1190; thats been kind of taking up my time.Ironholds 22:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Confirmed 1865 characters. Art LaPella (talk) 04:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that among the many historic buildings in downtownCohoes, New York (Ontario Street, pictured), is the first textile mill in the United States that manufactured hosiery and other knitwear? Self-nom. Sorry about the location of the picture caption but it's the least awkward phrasing I can come up with. Daniel Case (talk) 17:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length and date verified, non-internet cites accepted on good faith and independently confirmed by on-line resource. Kablammo (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Patrol Squadron Eight (VP-8) became the first operational P-3 Orion squadron in the United States Navy during October1962? Use Image:P-3A VP-49 1964.jpg which is an image from Wiki-Commons used in this article. Marcd30319 (talk) 15:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Madonna and Child donor portrait
... that medieval donor portraits often showed the donor of a religious image at a completely different scale (pictured) to the main figures? hook ref is note 13, plus this & another picture. self-nom by Johnbod (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length, ref and date checks out and pic is PD - Dumelow (talk) 11:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, a typo slipped in. Should read "three out of 32". The Times article needs a subscription to read, but thisIndependent on Sunday article confirms. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 20:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that on March 28, 2001, the French government announced the appointment of Henri Loyrette as the new director of the Louvre Museum? Self nomination, --JordanContribs 09:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article is currently only 1250 characters (only including the article's main prose, not references or other lists); one of the requirements for DYK entries is that the article must be at least 1500 characters. If you can expand the article within the next couple of days, it could still be able to qualify. Thanks, Jamie☆S93 19:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that the Liberian National Police had to rescue Liberian Supreme Court Chief Justice Johnnie Lewis from an angry mob after a car he was in hit and killed a pedestrian? (self) Aboutmovies (talk) 08:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Length, date and hook verified. Nice work! -- RyRy (talk) 06:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Sinthgunt is a figure in Germanic mythology, attested solely in the paganOld High German "horse cure" Merseburg Incantation, where she and the personified sun, Sunna, are stated as sisters using charms to heal a wounded horse? Self-nomination. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This hook, at 232 characters, is too long. There's still time to promote another hook. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
thats what the refs says ...( but should you add "european", there were several 100s of years in China first?) Victuallers (talk) 15:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What's with "famous"? It seems redundant. Her being the first itself is famous enough. Mspraveen (talk) 16:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. Took out famous --Doug Coldwelltalk 17:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is "and that its failure..." an expansion of "Did you know that..." or "Guru Maharaj Ji's followers predicted that..."? Maybe make that clear. —97198 (talk) 11:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I changed "its" to "the festival's" to clarify. ·:· Will Beback·:· 00:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
...and the article says "public predictions" Victuallers (talk) 10:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This hook, at 206 characters, is too long. There's still time to promote an alternate. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Wilhelm Brasse (born March 12, 1917, in Żywiec), the "famous photographer of Auschwitz" and the subject of the 2005 Polishtelevisiondocumentary film entitled Portrecista (The Portraitist), was ordered by his SS captors to photograph between 40,000 and 50,000 fellow Auschwitz prisoners from 1940 to 1945, and, that after his liberation and return to Żywiec, he would never take another photograph? – new article, self-nom by NYScholar --NYScholar (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry: Wasn't familiar w/ "Instructions" when posted this (just strike it out, if wish to); I created the article on August 28, 2008 and expanded it over the past weeks to about twice its initial length; it started at 8,008 or so chars. and is now (9/09, EST) about 30,170); under 4-fold (not 5-fold). Doesn't meet parameters of instructions. --NYScholar (talk) 04:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ALT ... that 1944 was called the year of ten victories by the Soviet Union for ten battles the Red Army won during that year? New article self-nom by Joe (Talk) 00:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC) (sorry if I provided too many options or messed up somehow, my first time doing this)[reply]
Length, date and hook verified. Moved from the September 8 section. This was created on the 9th, not the 8th. -- RyRy (talk) 06:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are several issues here. The screenshot can not be used as self-made, it has to be labelled as fair use, and can't be on the main page - unless the uploader is also the creator of the game, in which case there are WP:COI issues. The article is written too much like an advert; particularly glaring is the consistent use of the second person. Also, User:MikelZap puts this up as a self-nom, but according to the edit history he has only contributed a minor part of the article. This is not in itself a problem, but if there are indeed WP:COI issues, then this becomes relevant. Lampman (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Tampa Bay Storm had a 19-year AFL playoff appearances streak, in the 22-year existence of the franchise? self nom, --Gman124 talk 15:26, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
or,
... that Tampa Bay Storm ended the 2006 season with a 7–9 record (fourth in their division), ending a 19-year streak of playoff appearances? self nom, --Gman124 talk 15:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Discounting the block quote - which isn't actual prose - we only have around 1280 characters. —97198 (talk) 11:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Expanded to around 2,157 characters, discounting the block quote and his partial list of works. --Rosiestep (talk) 23:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Changed "film writer" to "screenwriter" as "screen" applies to both film and television, and as far as I can tell the writer above has only written for television, not film. —97198 (talk) 08:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine with me. Everything else checks out fine, right? Malinaccier (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Date, length & ref all check out. —97198 (talk) 13:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that in 1851 two trains returning from Chester races lost adhesion in Sutton Tunnel, Cheshire, and a third train crashed into them, killing nine people and injuring 30–40? New article self-nom by Peter I. Vardy (talk) 21:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Begs the question what are "Chester races". Article refers to "Chester Races", and links to Chester Cup about horse races. Hook could be reworded to clarify. Also how about "injuring many" rather than awkward "30-40"? doncram (talk) 06:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC) fixed "chester races" ... = Chester Racecourse ok Victuallers (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
..(alt). that two trains returning from the 1851 Chester races lost adhesion in Sutton Tunnel, and a third crashed into them, killing nine and injuring more? Victuallers (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
or (minor tweak)... that two trains returning from the 1851 Chester races lost adhesion in Sutton Tunnel, and a third crashed into them, killing nine and injuring up to 40 people? Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that retrospective diagnosis, the diagnosis of possible medical conditions on historical figures from historical sources, is regarded by some medical historians as "a game with ill-defined rules and little academic credibility"? Created today by Colin (talk·contribs). JFW | T@lk 20:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have made the relevant ref online; and Peter Elmer does say this.. is this "some medical historians" - can you tweak it? By the way - very timely article. This ref could be added as an alternate view to some articles as it puts speculation into perspective. Victuallers (talk) 12:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I assume your issue is (correctly) with the plural where we only cite and quote one author. Another issue is that Elmer reserves that particular criticism for "socially and culturally constructed diseases". While IMO many retrospective diagnoses are bollocks, there are a number of respectable examples that have enlightened us about the people or the disease. Perhaps the article needs a little balance tweaking. I'll have a think about another hook, unless JFW has more ideas. Colin°Talk 15:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original hook, at 228 characters, is too long. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the process. Do we edit the original hook or can you pick e.g. the alternative one about Roosevelt? Colin°Talk 09:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Either. If you prefer the Roosevelt alternative, then making the original version more eligible may be unnecessary. User:Art LaPella/Long hook may be helpful. Art LaPella (talk) 22:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please use the one about Roosevelt, above. It doesn't have any text--sourcing problems, has an online reference, is short enough, captures the essence of what a retrospective diagnosis is about, and contains fact that may surprise readers. Colin°Talk 22:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Except the hook is inaccurate. 2003 refers to the year an article was published that analyses the two favorite diagnoses of FDR's paralysis, but the second diagnosis predates that article. Also, the article about this particular retrospective diagnosis (Franklin D. Roosevelt's paralytic illness) does not qualify for DYK, being too old. I think it is unfortunate that DYK requires the article to be newly created/expanded; those are very artificial conditions. Also, in my opinion this push for DYK is contributing to an unfortunate POV bias in Retrospective diagnosis, to make its topic appear more novel and sensational than it is. --Una Smith (talk) 15:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is original research into the possibility that FDR had GBS rather than Polio. I'm not aware of any such "diagnosis [which] predates that article". The (Franklin D. Roosevelt's paralytic illness) article isn't being nominated for DYK (it isn't in bold) so its age is irrelevant. I have no idea about the "bias" Una perceives, but discussion of that belongs in the relevant talk page, not here. Colin°Talk 17:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The hook ("... that in 2003 Franklin D. Roosevelt was retrospectively diagnosed with Guillain-Barré syndrome, replacing the historical diagnosis of poliomyelitis as the cause of his paralytic illness?") is inaccurate, for several reasons. Reason number 1: the article examines the probabilities of two alternative, hypothetical diagnoses. The article neither proves the "new" diagnosis (which was not original to that cited article) nor disproves the "old" diagnosis, and certainly does not replace one with the other. The article has no new data about FDR; instead it considers how well FDR's reported symptoms match symptoms in certain populations, and a diagnosis on those grounds alone would be incompetent. The authors of the 2003 article understand that, and identify some data about FDR that, if reported, would permit a differential diagnosis. Reason number 2: as written, the hook concerns not the facts of the 2003 article but rather an unwarranted extrapolation from those facts. The hook is biased, not neutral. Retrospective diagnosis also is biased, not neutral, but that is to be expected in a brand new article with input from few editors. My meta-concern here is how the "rules" of DYK encourage ownership, haste, and other vices. --Una Smith (talk) 03:37, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are you reading the same article as me? The one that ends "Poliomyelitis cannot be ruled out but retrospective analysis favours the diagnosis of GBS". Even standard clinical diagnosis can involve the weighing up of probabilities. Look at the diagnostic criteria for tuberous sclerosis for example. Science cannot prove a theory, nor does one need to disprove an old one for it to be considered less attractive. The hook doesn't state that everyone now accepts this retrospective diagnosis, merely that it was performed and came to a conclusion that replaces the incumbent diagnosis. Of course the article contains no new data on FDR; that is common with retrospective diagnosis -- they work with historical records. There has been no extrapolation from the facts.
Would Una please highlight (preferably on the article talk page) any perceived bias in the article. The only bias I can see is the lack of commentary in support of the sometimes excellent historical retrospective diagnoses that have enlightened us, and that is because I haven't found sources for that yet. Unlike Una, I'm not prepared to inject my own opinion into the article without backup. The other aspect of RD that Una is trying to emphasize is the supposed use of the term in clinical diagnosis. This may well be true but the "evidence" Una is found is extremely weak and 140 years old. Just because Google Books finds those two words strung together in ancient manuscripts does not make it a defined term of widespread use and common meaning! Your comments on ownership and vice are unwelcome and rude and suggest sour grapes on your part. Colin°Talk 09:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How about: "... that retrospective diagnosis, a sport of biographers and historians, has a distinguished origin in medicine?" To support that hook, some of my own contributions deleted from the article would have to be restored. --Una Smith (talk) 03:37, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is utter WP:OR and totally biased. It is not always "a sport"; it is sometimes a scholarly process like any other historical or medical examination of the facts. And to say it has a "distinguished origin" is far grander than sources allow. The practice of analysing historical documents to retrospectively diagnose a person is 100% unlike the practice of examining a patient or a specimen. Sorry, Una, but DKY needs sourced contributions. Colin°Talk 09:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that it took the Austrians and the Prussians 200 years to complete the Klodzko Fortress, now located in southwestern Poland? self-nom by Tymek (talk) 19:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Was the fortress moved to Poland? Not sure what "now located" means.
ALT:... that the Klodzko Fortress in present-day southwestern Poland took the Austrians and the Prussians 200 years to build?
BTW, this article has quite a few hook-worthy facts. --76.64.76.141 (talk) 14:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
... that Sixto Casanovas was assassinated in 1852 in a Buenos Aires street by a political opponent who still believed he was guilty of the crime of treason in 1841? (self nom - created) -- Alexf42 18:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is saveable, but it need some minor? work. The only ref is "spanish wikipedia" and then has no link to the spanish article. Add it. I would also try and add some links to English sites too and make sure one is inline. Victuallers (talk) 14:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Link to es.wp added (was an oversight). Added inline ref. Looking for more (than the referenced books), but hard to come by online as he was not a major national character. -- Alexf42 17:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- needs spanish and access to offline source. suspect online is a wiki-mirror site Victuallers (talk) 12:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. I had not noticed it was indeed a wiki-mirror site. Ref was removed from article. Will look for more. thx. -- Alexf42 13:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dates, lengths are good; print reference accepted on good faith. Kablammo (talk) 11:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Length, date and hook verified. Nice work, Durova. :-) -- RyRy (talk) 19:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Basically the same thing I was about to say... so I won't repeat it. In the other hand, the hook isn't very interesting, so I wouldn't have verified it anyway. I've seen a baseball DYK about a player who only played at one game in his entire career, which would be Larry Gowell. Though, the hook nominated was very interesting and notable (the ball he hit was accepted into the Hall of Fame since it was the last one before the DH rule), so it was accepted as a result, no matter how many games he played. It's really the hook that matters. This one isn't very interesting. Unless you can find a much more interesting hook for him, we'll accept it. Thanks, RyRy (talk) 19:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Date, length, and second part of hook confirmed; source does not explictly say area is an important volcano for subglacial volcanism. Kablammo (talk) 23:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, still 226 characters by my count.--LAAFansign review 15:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- amended last hook and checked it out. tick Victuallers (talk) 10:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- needs spanish and access to offline source. suspect online is a wiki-mirror site Victuallers (talk) 12:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)