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Administrative discussions

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#RfC closure review request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 433#Closing (archived) RfC: Mondoweiss

(Initiated 29 days ago on 16 April 2024) - already the oldest thread on the page, and at the time of this comment, there has only been one comment in the past nine days. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 01:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

Talk:Awdal#RFC - Habr Awal/Isaaq clan

(Initiated 142 days ago on 24 December 2023) ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Tasnim News Agency

(Initiated 92 days ago on 12 February 2024)

Closure request for this WP:RSN RfC initiated on February 12, with the last !vote occurring on March 18. It was bot-archived without closure on March 26 due to lack of recent activity. - Amigao (talk) 02:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Change INFOBOXUSE to recommend the use of infoboxes?

(Initiated 60 days ago on 15 March 2024) Ready to be closed. Charcoal feather (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Before I try to close this I wanted to see if any editors believed I am WP:INVOLVED. I have no opinions on the broader topic, but I have previously participated in a single RfC on whether a specific article should include an infobox. I don't believe this makes me involved, as my participation was limited and on a very specific question, which is usually insufficient to establish an editor as involved on the broader topic, but given the strength of opinion on various sides I expect that any result will be controversial, so I wanted to raise the question here first.

If editors present reasonable objections within the next few days I won't close; otherwise, unless another editor gets to it first, I will do so. BilledMammal (talk) 04:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War#RFC on Listing of Belarus

(Initiated 60 days ago on 16 March 2024) Hello, this RFC was started on 16 March 2024 and as of now was active for more than a month (nearly 1,5 month to be exact). I think a month is enough for every interested user to express their opinion and to vote at RFC and the last vote at this RFC was made by user Mellk on 15 April 2024 (nearly two weeks ago and within a month since the start of this RFC). The question because of which this RFC was started previously resulted in quite strong disagreements between multiple users, but I think there already is a WP:CONS of 12 users who already voted at this RFC. Since the contentious topics procedure applies to page Russo-Ukrainian War, I think this RFC must be closed by uninvolved user/administrator to ensure a valid WP:CONS and to prevent further disputes/edit warring about this question in the future. -- Pofka (talk) 09:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Will an experienced uninvolved editor please close this RFC. If there is a consensus that Belarus should be listed, but not as to how it should be listed, please close with the least strong choice, Robert McClenon (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it should not be closed with the "least strong choice", but instead with a choice which received the most votes (the strongest choice). The most users chose C variant (in total 6 users: My very best wishes, Pofka, Gödel2200, ManyAreasExpert, Licks-rocks, CVDX), while the second strongest choice was A variant (in total 5 users). So I think the WP:CONS of this RFC question is C variant. -- Pofka (talk) 18:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 01:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Libertarian Party (Australia)#Conservatism

(Initiated 46 days ago on 29 March 2024) RfC template expired. TarnishedPath^talk 01:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Talk: Elissa Slotkin#Labor Positions and the 2023 UAW Strike

(Initiated 46 days ago on 30 March 2024) RfC expired, no clear consensus. andrew.robbins (talk) 04:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:RSN#RFC:_The_Anti-Defamation_League

(Initiated 38 days ago on 7 April 2024) Three related RFCs in a trench coat. I personally think the consensus is fairly clear here, but it should definitely be an admin close. Loki (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Enforcing ECR for article creators

(Initiated 37 days ago on 8 April 2024) Discussion appears to have died down almost a month after this RfC opened. Would like to see a formal close of Q1 and Q2. Awesome Aasim 00:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Brothers of Italy#RfC on neo-fascism in info box 3 (Effectively option 4 from RfC2)

(Initiated 36 days ago on 8 April 2024) Clear consensus for change but not what to change to. I've handled this RfC very badly imo. User:Alexanderkowal — Preceding undated comment added 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:International Churches of Christ#Request for Comment on About Self sourcing on beliefs section of a religious organization’s article

(Initiated 29 days ago on 15 April 2024) No new comments in eight days. TarnishedPath^talk 01:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Havana syndrome#RfC on the presentation of the Havana Syndrome investigative report content

(Initiated 20 days ago on 25 April 2024) No new comments in 12 days. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 08:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Total
CfD	0	0	19	20	39
TfD	0	0	0	1	1
MfD	0	0	2	3	5
FfD	0	0	2	2	4
RfD	0	0	23	48	71
AfD	0	0	0	3	3

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 8#Medical schools in the Caribbean

(Initiated 55 days ago on 21 March 2024) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 20:38, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 8#Category:French forts in the United States

(Initiated 54 days ago on 22 March 2024) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 20:38, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 10#Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings in Réunion

(Initiated 52 days ago on 23 March 2024) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 13:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 24#Category:Asian American billionaires

(Initiated 21 days ago on 24 April 2024) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 20:38, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Maersk Hangzhou#Second merge proposal

(Initiated 111 days ago on 24 January 2024) Merge discussion involving CTOPS that has been open for 2 weeks now. Needs closure. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:46, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter: I would give it a few days as the discussion is now active with new comments. GoldenBootWizard276 (talk) 00:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

As nominator, I support a non consensus closure of this discussion so we can create an RFC to discuss how WP:ONEEVENT applies in this situation. GoldenBootWizard276 (talk) 21:56, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Talk:1985_Pacific_hurricane_season#Proposed_merge_of_Hurricane_Ignacio_(1985)_into_1985_Pacific_hurricane_season

(Initiated 105 days ago on 30 January 2024) Listing multiple non-unanimous merge discussions from January that have run their course. Noah, AA^Talk 13:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Pharnavaz_I_of_Iberia#Requested_move_6_February_2024

(Initiated 99 days ago on 6 February 2024) Requested move open for nearly 2 months. Natg 19 (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Has now been open for three months. 66.99.15.163 (talk) 19:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:12 February 2024 Rafah strikes#Merge proposal to Rafah offensive

(Initiated 92 days ago on 13 February 2024) The discussion has been inactive for over a month, with a clear preference against the merge proposal. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 19:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Talkpage_"This_article_has_been_mentioned_by_a_media_organization:"_BRD

(Initiated 28 days ago on 16 April 2024) - Discussion on a talkpage template, Last comment 6 days ago, 10 comments, 4 people in discussion. Not unanimous, but perhaps there is consensus-ish or strength of argument-ish closure possible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to me that there is a consensus here to do anything, with most editors couching their statements as why it might (or might not) be done rather than why it should (or should not). I will opine that I'm not aware there's any precedent to exclude {{Press}} for any reason and that it would be very unusual, but I don't think that's good enough reason to just overrule Hipal. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 01:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Forest_management#Merge_proposal

(Initiated 17 days ago on 28 April 2024) As the proposer I presume I cannot close this. It was started more than a week ago and opinions differed somewhat. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Press_Your_Luck_scandal#Separate_articles

(Initiated 12 days ago on 2 May 2024) Please review this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Agroforestry#Merge_proposal

(Initiated 11 days ago on 3 May 2024) As the proposer I presume I cannot close this. It was started more than a week ago and opinions differed somewhat. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Excessive topic-ban

I was given permission by the Administrator, Nick, to bring this matter to AN here.

Due to a dispute in the article Ghost in the Shell, Salvidrim! felt i was disruptive and had banned me from the article. If he feels so, fine....I'm not going to argue over it. However, i believe Salvidrim! over-stepped a bit. Salvidrim! has also topic banned me from Ghost in the Shell (manga), and Ghost in the Shell (video game).

The video game article has never been up for dispute nor disruption, and i have always been the main contributor. In fact, i just recently put it up for peer review, here to consider putting up in FAC, which i find too much of a coincidence and highly unreasonable. The manga has been relieved more than a while ago and since then, the article has barely been touched by me (mainly because the article looks fine).

As you can see here, Salvidrim! isn't really answering the questions i have, and i feel the response is lacking of what an admin should give. So i would like this to be reviewed primarily by what is allowed by the members under the current probation. I think the more appropriate way is focusing on the issue, not just make punishment for punishment sake. other members have seen the core of the issue. I believe right now, Ryulong specifically has an incredible advantage over Ghost in the Shell and Ghost in the Shell (manga), by merging them, despite not being the main contributor, nor technically having the consensus. You can see my extensive comment on the situation here.

On a lighter note, (but not what i'm most concerned about): i feel the "indefinite" probation seems rather excessive (then again, i found a lot of issues in the past were taken care of excessively). I was more than happy when the appropriate topic/two-way interaction ban (not one-way) works REALLY well...and since then, i have been able to edit well and quicker, and even other editors have noticed my recent contributions. And i don't have to stress about members talking me and feeding fire to it all while i'm biting my tongue...it really takes care of the core issue. This however, i don't feel is necessary, just being excessive. Lucia Black (talk) 06:28, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• I personally would not have restricted you from the other two pages, as the dispute that resulted in the restriction is pretty focused on just Ghost in the Shell. However in the application of a sanction like this, the question should be whether the administrative action was reasonable, not what I would due if I replaced the judgement of the sanctioning admin with my own. One of the goals of the probation is to avoid the need to have a discussion, so overriding a decision should only be done if it is clearly wrong. In that light, I think the 3 page topic ban is well within reasonable admin discretion. I might slightly encourage User:Salvidrim! to reduce the topic ban to the one page, but don't think there is a case for the community overriding that discretion. Monty₈₄₅ 06:53, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
  • He would have need extensive consensus to do so, either way as its outside of "automatic topic ban" that he's allowed to do. So i genuinely feel like there is a case....it may not be the biggest case, but i am bringing up valid points. Lucia Black (talk) 07:09, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Your inability to comment on a merge I may or may not propose has no bearing on your topic ban.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

In the past, you've merged without Consensus. So, what i'm saying is that

Endorse Topic Ban - If you look at the terms of the sanctions against Lucia, all it says is that it has to be an admin who feels she's being disruptive. She's been arguing with a battleground mentality for months there now. Sergecross73 msg me 12:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: We probably share same kind of opinion about this complaint and user. I admire your skills of evaluating and drawing conclusions, Lucia has been also engaged in misinterpreting a number of users. I think that topic ban on 3 pages was a good idea, from "endorse ban" you mean WP:BANNED or you were talking about the topic ban? Thanks. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 18:32, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I had only really meant Salv's topic ban. (I'd technically support both honestly, but there was no consensus to indef block/ban her last time that discussion was had, so I don't especially want to push for it now.) I've amended my first comment to make that clearer. Thanks for having me clear that up. Sergecross73 msg me 19:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• I will concede that extending to ban to the other two GITS pages seems like a bit broad, but there is ample history of unproductive disputes on all pages of this topic, which led to Lucia's probation and IBAN, as well as at least one previous pageban under the probation (applied by User:Nick). I felt it there was a more-than-reasonable probability that banning Lucia from the one page currently causing issue would cause the disruptive editing to carry on over to other GITS pages. I also stopped short of an actual GITS topic-ban because the wording of the probation specifies that she can be banned from pages and not topics, and I wanted to avoid seeing this reversed on a technicality. Lucia needs to realize we are putting these things (IBAN, probation, pagebans) in place to avoid having to ban/indef her entirely. As I explained to Lucia, the fact that she still sees disputes as combats that she can win or lose proves she is unable to conduct herself in a manner respectful of Wikipedia's behavioral policies. She also repeats this sentiment above, talking about how Ryulong now "has an advantage" despite "not being the main contributor". This convinces me that, at the very least, the indefinite probation currently in effect is still a perfectly appropriate remedy. I will not oppose removing the current pagebans from all but the main object of the dispute if the community thinks it is too broad a sanction. I would support a one-way (Lucia>Ryulong) IBAN. I would support a two-way Lucia<>Ryulong IBAN if Ryulong agrees to it. I agree with Ryulong that these IBANs would be potentially useless, but I think they can't hurt in trying to maintain a positive atmosphere. I would potentially, weakly support a proposition for a siteban+indef block for Lucia, as I think far too much time has been wasted in dealing with the drama that she seems to attract relentlessly, but I do not think that we are necessarily at this point yet. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 18:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

@Sergecross73 and Salvidrim!: The idea of indefinite bans, shows this isn't about how "disruptive" i am or how much you're preventing. Most of this seems mostly punitive rather than preventative. A topic ban of Ghost in the Shell, would've been plenty already, but the others just ostracize anyone from providing a consensus or establishing "no-consensus".

You know my history, but we also know how much it correlates to other members who have been equally (if not more) disruptive (even without me). Like i said, the topic-ban to the article you believe i was disruptive is more than enough. There is no "technicality", just misinterpretation. The point is to ban me from the articles i'm being disruptive...not to ban whichever one you want.

Whether you like me or not, shouldn't be a point Lucia Black (talk) 05:48, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Facepalm Not this (Redacted) again. LB, I'm going to say this the same way that I said it to Ryulong, and to the other editor you love to conflict with. We don't give two rats asses who started it, who is contesting it, or who has an unfair advantage. What we do care about is seeing the persistent and perennial drama crops with respect to Japanese Culture (Anime/Manga/Video Games/Etc) and the 3 referenced editors to stop. Demonstrate that you can behave yourself and craft a appeal that addresses problems the community has identified with your actions. Hasteur (talk) 16:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support extended topic ban based primarily on this filing. Before posting here, Lucia should have read the boomerang essay. I don't know much about Japanese animation other than that it causes conflict between certain editors including Ryulong and Lucia. I know Ryulong enough from other areas to know that he gets into too many controversies, but that he is usually right and that he is primarily concerned about the quality of the encyclopedia. Lucia's post here does not focus on the quality of the encyclopedia, but on whether the topic ban gives Ryulong an unfair advantage. In other words, it appears that she is more concerned about her antagonism for another editor than about the encyclopedia in general. Based on her own arguments, I Support the extended topic ban. She is fortunate not to have a one-way interaction ban imposed. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

@Hasteur: Like i said, my "disruption" has always correlated between specific members who are equally (and again, if not more) as disruptive, so i know my actions, i just feel a lot of times its looked at in a very specific perspective. this isn't about whether Ryulong is right or wrong, you don't need to know how familiar with anime/manga media, all you have to do is know the topic well. but i'm not here to discuss the issue....after all, i am "banned" from it, however, i am here to contest the other two articles that have nothing to do with my disruption. the Ghost int he Shell (manga) and Ghost in the Shell (video game) article neither have received any disruption by me, and i have done nothing but contribute to those articles.

@Robert McClenon: What exactly do you want me to get out of WP:BOOMERANG that is related to this situation? All i'm asking is that they topic-ban "appropriately" by only keeping Ghost in the Shell topic ban, and wait and see if i ever become "disruptive" over the other two. And so far no one has proven that this is "NOT" punitive. What i'm most concerned about is the article, but at the moment, am i even in a position to even discuss it? I'm not even trying to appeal for the current article, that Salvidrim believes i'm being disruptive.

In this case, your post requesting a limitation of the topic-ban is itself the boomerang. You, Lucia, gave as your reason for requesting the restriction of the topic-ban that the extended topic-ban gave Ryulong an "incredible advantage" over you in a possible merge, not yet proposed. You didn't emphasize the value to the encyclopedia, but your long-standing contention with Ryulong. It is true that you wrote the request stating your real reason for requesting the limitations on the ban, a contention with another editor. However, that isn't a reason of the good of the encyclopedia. As other editors have said, you (Lucia) don't pay attention to responses to your requests. We do answer your questions. You just apparently don't consider disagreement to be an option. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:26, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

why isn't what i'm asking for isn't fair or appropriate? Lucia Black (talk) 01:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

This is the general flow of just about all the discussions that go unfavorably for Lucia. She proposes something. It's opposed for a variety of legitimate reasons. She doesn't agree with them, and then proceeds to not to acknowledge them. She'll just continue to act like no one has given an actual reason. It's one of the reasons her talk page arguments go on forever. This very discussion demonstrates why Salvidrim's actions were a good, preventative choice. Sergecross73 msg me 14:39, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

• For clarity, I oppose an anime/manga/VG topic ban as Lucia rarely edits outside those areas (she would be lost without them, I'd wager) and in my experience has been helpful overall there. I'm neutral on a GitS topic ban; I'd think how deep into the bedrock this discussion has sunk would set her straight, even if it wouldn't change her personal anger at the subject, but she has been obstinate and gotten warnings on the topic before. Tezero (talk) 03:32, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Too many threads about Japanese entertainment

Lucia Black and others: There have been too many threads here and at WP:ANI about Japanese entertainment. It doesn't seem to be such a contentious area, but there are certain editors who can't get along, including one who is usually right and who makes positive contributions to the encyclopedia. At some point, someone will get tired of all these disruptive threads, and will conclude that the only remaining forum is the ArbCom. Lucia: Every complaint that you bring here, and especially every complaint that you bring here that is poorly founded and where you won't listen, is one more step toward the issue going to ArbCom. Can you (Lucia) infer what will happen when ArbCom accepts the case? The first action, which will be a near-certainty, because it is what ArbCom does when there are conduct issues in a content area, is discretionary sanctions, optional one-uninvolved-admin draconian restrictions on editing. Do you really want discretionary sanctions? The second action, since Lucia Black is the editor who doesn't listen and doesn't learn, is a topic-ban on Japanese entertainment in general. Lucia: Do you really want to complain and complain and complain until you get topic-banned? I don't think so. Then stop pushing. If you keep pushing, the area will go to ArbCom, there will be discretionary sanctions, and a topic-ban for Lucia Black is very likely. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:26, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I assure you that Japanese Entertainment is a broad assumption. there has always been a specific range that has in WP:ANI between me, Ryulong, and the other member. I cover mostly media such as anime/manga and video games, Ryulong does very minor edits to those, mostly relating to format. The fact that you mention "including one who is actually right and who make positive contributions to the encyclopedia" shows me a lot of things on where your stance and reasoning is based on. It shows me this isn't out of whether my contributions are bad or not to merit a topic ban as broad, but because you know User:Ryulong's edits, and you personally feel he makes only good contributions t not even question it. And because i mentioned this allows Ryulong to get consensus by default, (not a true consensus), it shows more. And i'm not even misconstruing. SO here's my questions: What edits to Wikipedia have i done that have affected it negatively and it wont be cleared until i'm banned from anime/manga articles?

What makes this particular case "unfounded"? i have not made any disruption toward Ghost in the Shell (manga) nor Ghost in the Shell (video game), in fact, I've done nothing but good contributions to those, and even further. I recently just put up Ghost in the Shell (video game) to peer review to see if it gets to. So i make positive contributions to Wikipedia as well. You just have to actually "want" to see them.

You just asked me "Do you want to complain and complain and complain until you get topic banned?", and my response to that is "Are you suggesting that bringing up an issue can be the only reason to topic-ban? Is this what you were trying to imply when you provided WP:BOOMERANG? That i shoot myself in the foot, not because of disruption but the mere fact that the people who read the issue don't agree and that alone is "reasonable" enough to enforce even more sanctions?" i'm not treating this like a vote, i'm treating this like a discussion. I'm genuinely asking you these questions.

if you care about the well being of Wikipedia and the learning process of a member (even if its one you're not fond of), perhaps this is the chance to answer my questions. I recently asked you what WP:BOOMERANG had to do with anything. My questions have always been ignored. So it shows to me how punitive the method goes when it comes to me. Lucia Black (talk) 01:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Just a quick warning - please remember that you remain under an interaction ban with Chris and thinly veiled references to him here and elsewhere are still sufficient to have you blocked under the provisions of that interaction ban. This discussion needs to focus solely on your behavioural problems Lucia, you really need not mention Ryulong or Chris anywhere. Nick (talk) 14:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:SITEBAN proposal

At this point, I believe a full siteban for Lucia is the best solution. The amount of time and effort wasted on the relentless drama surrounding her has far surpassed whatever benefit she may bring to the project. We have tried establishing an IBAN to try to get her to re-focus on content instead of editors. We have put her under probation to enable admins to summarily ban her from any page where she is being disruptive. We have banned her from opening a thread on any noticeboard due to incessant, unproductive ranting. How much farther will we go to enforce more and more restrictions around Lucia, for the sole purpose of avoiding having to indef-block her?

Now she has been topic-banned from 3 pages within the same topic because she was being disruptive in one, and mentioned that the dispute ranged across other GITS-related articles, under the provisions of her ongoing probation... and immediately sought approval to open an AN thread to rant again. When she was last blocked, she said she was "content" despite the block because her side of the editing dispute had "won". Just in the past days, she has demonstrated again and again that her attitude is almost the exact opposite of one that is seeking conflict resolution. She refers to editing disputes as "3-way tie"s, argues that her ban gives another editor "an unfair advantage" despite the fact that he "isn't the main contributor", as if that gave her some right over the content. I will admit I am floored and speechless by how casually she discusses "her disruption" as if it was just a fact-of-life. She gives no indication whatsoever that she recognizes the problems with her behaviour, and doesn't make even the smallest attempt at reassuring the community that she will not continue onto the same track in the future. Previous discussion - The last siteban proposal in January 2014 was archived before being closed and arguably failed to produce strong consensus for the ban, with a majority of opposers indicated they wished to give Lucia "one more chance", or that the circumstances at that moment didn't support a ban, or instead suggested an anime/manga broad topic ban. 7 months later, SSDD, I think the community's patience with Lucia's antics has expired by now. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:13, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I have just reverted Lucia Black's attempts at WP:CANVASSING editors (1, 2). ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 02:25, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I have just been notified these were posted following a misguided recommendation by Tezero, so I won't hold it against her too much, even though she should've known better. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 02:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, if indeed that was a mistake, it was my mistake. I do wonder where her supporters will come from, though, as I suspect this page has a sampling bias towards people who are strict and unforgiving. Tezero (talk) 02:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree, but even if I did, I'd think you're familiar with the term "two wrongs don't make a right"? A WikiProject isn't the place to recruit help at AN discussions. (I'd "assume good faith", but your wording makes it quite clear that's what you're doing, so...) Sergecross73 msg me 02:37, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Salvidrim nails all the endlessly recurring problems with Lucia. My comments above also explain my stance as well. Sergecross73 msg me 17:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support There is no more water in this dry well of AGF. I note that in the January proposals I was already fed up with LB, and their "learning" appears to have not changed any of the problematic behavior we previously idenfified. Hasteur (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment @Salvidrim!: So basically, you want me to ban me indefinitely simply because you're "tired" and your patience is wearing thin? Let me be clear that all i'm asking for the moment is to lessen the topic ban to only the one you believe i'm being "disruptive". So i'm not asking for a lot. To "rant" is your choice of words, it's not close to helping others describe the situation. And honestly, you're only sole reason to ban me indefinitely is how you personally feel about me, not that my recent actions merit it. This is WP:PUNISH. Here's some of the points that can be looked at:

Some editors, even some administrators on Wikipedia forget why we are here and begin to adopt a punitive model for Wikipedia politics. They support blocks, bans, and enforcement of community principles in order to exact retribution on "bad users" rather than helping to create and improve encyclopedic content. This is regrettable and problematic, not to mention contrary to the reason for blocks, bans, and enforcements as stated in the Wikipedia guidelines and policies linked in the previous sentence. When proposing or supporting an action that could easily be interpreted to be punishment, ask yourself, "Will this action help make the content on Wikipedia better?" If the answer is not an unequivocal "yes" and you still end up supporting the action, you may be an adherent to the punitive model of Wikipedia. This may also mean you enjoy the perceived "power" that you get from enforcing your will through the various features (or bugs) of the Wikipedia community.

Administrators should follow a preventative model for their actions with a goal of curbing disruptive or harmful behavior from editors rather than trying to punish them. Topic bans, page protections and so on are in some cases more helpful to the project than indefinite blocks or community bans. Short blocks may easily be interpreted as gamy slaps on the wrist that just serve to aggravate rather than enlighten. If you have a problem with the actions of a user, why not try to discuss the matter with her or him before blocking?

@Hasteur: if i'm not learning, maybe choose a better method. But i have not made any contact with you and you haven't made contact with me. so if you're fed up, its out of your own personal choice to do so. My learning depends on how you choose to teach me anything. SO far, the only thing i learned is "admins can do what they want, and if you question it, you'll be sorry" and i'm not even choosing to see it that way, that is exactly whats going on right now. And all i'm asking is for something completely reasonable. What reason do you have to ban me indefinitely? I rarely get an answer, my questions are ignored. Often times i'm being belittled, insulted, or certain things are exaggerated, not by my how actions affect Wikipedia but how you personally feel (for example: you just mentioned how "fed up" you are, not that my actions are worth being blocked indefinitely. Lucia Black (talk) 01:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

See also WP:IDHT and WP:BOOMERANG. Anything you reply with besides "I understand and will do what I can to fix it" only serves to put more nails into the lid of the coffin you've created for yourself. Hasteur (talk) 01:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

@Hasteur: I've seen many people use WP:IDHT against me for various things. to this day, people use it and feel thats all that needs to be said. I've seen people use WP:IDHT to make believe they have had consensus, I've seen it as an excuse to not answer important questions. The advice in WP:IDHT is to listen to what their saying and move on to the discussion. But theres a problem when one wants to "move on" to a discussion with no , and doesn't want to stick to the one that was provided. It shouldn't be considered disruptive to try to keep the integrity of the discussion.

The way WP:BOOMERANG is used that you don't tell us what you want to hear, than you're shooting yourself on the foot. But i dont need to say "I understand and will do what i can to fix it" because the situation doesn't call for it. The problem is that Salvidrim! banned me from an articles I've done nothing but good contributions to. I'm not trying to get rid of all of the issues, just the ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucia Black (talk • contribs)

What Sergecross, Hasteur and Salvidrim! are insinuating is that i "admit fault" but their forgetting. And even if i tell them what they want to hear, thats not going to satisfy them. and for the record, thats not what this issue was brought up. All i was asking is that they topic ban "appropriately". Because I've been doing nothing but good contributions to said articles. What their doing is just using word-choice to ban me indefinitely, it has nothing to do whether i learned or not. Its what they choose to interpret. As Knowledgekid has said, objectively, what recent edits have that affected the article?

What bothers me is that no one wants to analyze the situation further. Knowledgekid hit the nail on the issue. that there is something that's bigger than me. Lucia Black (talk) 03:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support: The other commentators get it right. More than anything, one more chance was given, taken, and squandered. Even such draconian remedies as an AN/ANI ban plus what I'd describe as "roving discretionary sanctions" have failed. From all appearances so long as Lucia Black remains on the project, articles in her preferred subject area will suffer, as countless editor-hours will be wasted addressing battleground behavior. Anything less is just too little, too late. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: How have i "squandered" that chance? What chance are you insinuating? I'm sorry, but what you're saying doesn't grammatically make sense. I don't even understand what you're saying. And overall, i'm tired of people Lucia Black (talk) 02:16, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Assumeably, Mendaliv's referring to how you were given one last chance after the last time it was suggested you be sitebanned, and here we are again, at a discussion about you being site-banned, due to your constant disruptive discussions all over the project. You haven't learned a thing from your past sanctions. Sergecross73 msg me 02:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Respectfully, if you think anything I wrote above is actually ungrammatical, the problem is entirely on your end. The longer you keep battling, the more people will be wasting time dealing with you rather than writing articles. It's a simple enough concept. The evidence demonstrates that you are a net minus to this project. I can't say it any clearer. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose; Lucia's contributions to anime- and game-related articles have still been beneficial overall. It's true that she comes off as confrontational and black-and-white sometimes, but to me it seems more like responding with anger when Ryulong disregards the importance of consensus. That's a "side" I don't want to win. The most problematic of her edits are focused on GitS-related articles, anyway, so I think a topic ban is the highest this should go. (What really needs to happen is a concerted, project-wide discussion on anime/manga article organization, because I've seen it be contentious before.) Tezero (talk) 02:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I actually recognize that a non-negligible part of her contributions are positive, but partially constructive activity cannot be used to excuse or justify the amount of time waster over the drama that she relentlessly surrounds herself with. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 02:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose The main issue seems to be a feud between Ryulong and Lucia, either fix that or have other editors weigh in on Lucia's proposals so more of a consensus can be reached. I have seen Lucia get articles up to GA status and feel she deserves to be here as a productive editor. Also I have noticed that editors that Lucia have had issues with in the past are saying Ban her indef which to me seems a bit biased. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

None of the points raised in the proposal for the siteban even discuss the dispute with Ryulong or with anyone else. It's not a matter of dispute, it's a matter of general behaviour. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 02:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The most recent thing above deals with Ghost in the Shell all the other things piled on to her after the fact. As soon as her name was mentioned in the ANI board people piled on Lucia did ... back at such and such time. Are there any other recent reasons other than Ghost in the Shell and the long dispute between the two editors? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I encourage you to re-read the initial text of my proposal, which is solely about the long history of wasted time and unproductive behaviour. I purposedly avoided discussing specifics of any dispute, because even though this latest kerfuffle is probably the so-called "last straw", this is but the latest in a long, long line of incessant drama and ranting that never led to any change of attitude or even recognition of a problem on Lucia's part. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 02:31, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, that in itself is a massive, month spanning argument that has wasted all sorts of people's time, whether it be ANI, DRN, etc etc, so you really shouldn't downplay just that. But beyond that, it's these sorts of disruptive discussions that she's constantly a part of. She makes a huge stink over something minor, and treats the talk page like a battlefield to be won, where she speaks with an unwarranted sense of authority and refuses to listen to anyone else. Time after time these lengthy arguments ensue where she completely fails to assume good faith and sums up the other side's argument wrong, to the point where she tries to tell the others their own viewpoint. It's disruptive, and she puts a lot more into these timewasters than her GAs these days. Sergecross73 msg me 02:32, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Pretty sure all the regulars follow AN anyway, making the canvassing a non-event. I'll not be contributing a definite opinion here myself, since my lengthy absences from the project mean I have no sense of patterns of recent behavior. I will note that there have been far more intense previous arguments which she was not banned for, however. --erachima talk 02:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you that a ban could've (maybe should've) resulted from earlier events; this just proves that even at her worst, we allowed her one last chance, and another; now I think that, considering the complete lack of change (or even recognition that there is a problem), it's finally enough. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 02:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, its the culmination of years, not just a single event. Sergecross73 msg me 02:42, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

You misunderstand me, Salvidrim. I consider massive arguments generally dealable as long as the involved editors are able to focus on content and go back to work afterward. Bans are for nuclear errors and various forms of terminal cluelessness. --erachima talk 02:55, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that's exactly correct. "Nuclear errors" and "terminal cluelessness" are much more easily addressed with a summary indef block. This isn't a case that will uncontroversially end with a block. Formal sitebanning is appropriate where the situation is complex, and to give any wandering admin additional pause before lifting the block imposed to enforce said siteban. This is precisely the sort of situation that calls for a ban discussion, taking into account all the past problems, and carefully weighing the evidence. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 03:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Ban-via-indef is the most common outcome for nuclear errors, ban-via-discussion for terminal cluelessness. --erachima talk 03:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support due to chronic, excessive battleground behavior that hasn't been corrected by lesser sanctions, and complete failure to acknowledge that behavior. I suggest that the editor contribute for at least a year without drama on another Wikimedia project, and then return here with a convincing explanation of understanding of past problems and a commitment to contributing positively going forward. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose siteban, though i do support the wider topicban Salvidrim! imposed and might well support an even wider ban (~Manga, animation, Japanese topics?) as appropriate to reduce the level of drama. I recall suggesting on this board, some time ago, that Lucia spend some time in a completely different area, and i suggest it again. If it is an area she feels less "interesting", all the better, as perhaps she'll be able to focus on the improvement of the project we all want rather than the competitive roundabout she seems to get stuck on at the moment. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 02:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The reason this seems like a rather mediocre solution is that since upwards of 90% of Lucia's edits are made within this topic area, a broad topicban and a siteban are functionally almost the same. Also, the issues leading to this proposal aren't about the topic of editing, they are about Lucia's general behaviour, and there is no indication whatsoever that this would be changed by changing the topic area, quite the contrary. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Precisely! She is so focussed on this one area, and yet is capable of performing good edits; thus, a siteban has the side effect of hurting us as a community, by depriving ourselves of those potential edits, while a topicban is a win-win, in forcing Lucia to refocus and (so i hope!) find a happier place. If this has the effect of a siteban, so be it; if it does not, well, that's good, right? Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 04:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Rereading this, it sounds more light-hearted than i intend. My point is that a "mediocre solution" is a good thing, if we are using the adjective in opposition to "draconian"; a full siteban is a last resort, something the community moves to with heavy heart when there is no hope for an editor; while there is even a small glimmer (10% of edits, maybe) suggesting the editor might be redeemed, the community should aim for that glimmer. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 04:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't exactly oppose a topic ban, especially after this incident, but, at the same time, I don't think there needs to be a site ban. A topic ban, however, might be best. More specifically involving video games. Why not have just a topic ban on video games? GamerPro64 03:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that you think just banning me will solve any of the issues. Recently, Sergecross also mentioned disruption from Ryulong aswell in his ANI. So he also sees there's not just one side involved. I don't believe just banning me will solve anything. It'll just satisfy a specific group of members... there's more involved people with the exact same(if not worst) history. So right now, there has been no frequent disruption with WP:ANIME related articles, which is indeed 90-70% of the articles i make. One isolated event wont help. And the fact that i provide good edits. shows more...

This is punitive not preventative. Lucia Black (talk) 03:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

A siteban is suggested to prevent having to waste more time whenever you're back at AN/I in a few weeks or months. The same pattern have been continuing for years, and you have never shown indication that you acknowledged the issues, nor that you desire to improve your behaviour. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:17, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)What I'm suggesting is a slap on the wrist. The topic ban could be temporary even. Like a couple months or something. I don't want to see an editor who tries to do their best on the site. But this is absolutely not showing you in a nice light at all. GamerPro64 03:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

GamerPro64: After years of slaps, an IBAN, a draconian probation, a noticeboard ban, can you quantify how many more "slaps on the wrist" you would allow Lucia before coming to the conclusion that her editing's positive side do not outweigh the drama's waste of time? ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

To be quite honest, I don't even believe a site ban would even work. Most likely this'll end up resulting in IP addresses made and sock-puppetry and anything else that will also make this conversation frivolous. GamerPro64 03:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

True. I don't personally think sockpuppetry, even when deceptive, is necessarily wrong, but Wikipedia policy definitively does, and jumping to the largest possible ban is a virtual guarantee of Lucia doing just that if she's determined to. I don't think any number of "slaps on the wrist" count in this context when she hasn't gotten any temporary ones for this area yet. Tezero (talk) 05:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Has not annoyed the general WP:ANIME community, at least not more than any of the other regulars, and has kept the infighting away from those boards. If you're concerned about postings or sanctions on GITS then limit it to that. -AngusWOOF (talk) 03:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

@Salvidrim:To prevent waste time is completely based on your choice.....and i find that reasoning counter-intuitive, and quite frankly "immature". What i brought up was completely relevant, and i was given permission to bring it up by an administrator. That should not warrant any reason to ban me indefinitely.

@GamerPro64: A temporary ban to WP:VG isn't a complete problem for me but to me feels like its more punitive though. Preventing disruption to articles isn't whats happening with me in WP:VG. I agree this isn't showing a nice light, but showing in a nice light is all about perspective, and how one chooses to phrase things. To me, SergeCross, Salvidrim and Hasteur's pattern is blowing things up out of proportion.

All right. I believe that I have no clue what to make of this conversation as a whole. I'll just end my contribution to this discussion by being overall Neutral on the whole ordeal. GamerPro64 03:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

And i agree @AngusWOOF: that the main GITS article is fine to be banned from, however the other two feels excessive, and counter-intuitive as another disruptive editor is often involved too. Banning one, is enabling the other. Which is why i ask this be seen completely Lucia Black (talk) 03:37, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

If those editors really have been disruptive for a long period of time, they should be listed here as well. Tezero (talk) 05:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The one and only other editor who has yet to be affected by these type of bans is Ryulong, in the previous ANI, it was finally "preventative" rather than "punitive" because it finally caused a full two-way interaction ban rather than the one-way (causing sid member to take advantage of the situation and add flame) and topic-ban. But that's a history of where Ryulong was involved in some way. This is why i'm against a complete ban from Ghost in the Shell (manga) and Ghost in the Shell (video game). Lucia Black (talk) 06:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Oppose: Lucia has certainly been the root of many ridiculous, unproductive disputes. But, if someone as impossible to interact with as User:SNAAAAKE!! has dodged the banhammer on content-generation grounds, Lucia should be treated no differently. Poor manners aside, she does do work. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 08:16, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I'm against a site ban, as I was on the indef block in the last discussion. I did propose a blanket indefinite topic ban from Anime and Manga last time and propose it again. Proposing a ban on someone for just taking up time is harsh and very punitive. Although her attitude exasperates me as much as it does any number of other editors, she's not actively being pointedly disruptive, vandalising, socking, edit warring, lacking competence or any of the other things that editors are usually banned for. She contributes, she discusses, albeit confrontationally with a severe combative mentality, which she would do well to sort out, but on average does things in accordance with what is required on Wikipedia. If we banned anyone who was a pain in someone else's butt, there wouldn't be many people left here. Blackmane (talk) 10:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose a site ban. I am aware that she has been given "one more chance", but maybe "one more chance" is punitive in her case. I support a broad topic ban on anime/manga/Japanese video games, where she is always getting into conflicts. If that amounts to a ban, that is her choice to be an SPA. Concur with Blackmane. I would also support a two-week block. However, just because she always disrupts Japanese entertainment and can't take part in discussions doesn't mean that she should be banned from the English Wikipedia, only from Japanese entertainment and from discussions at these noticeboards. Her insistence on responding to every post here by saying that we haven't answered her questions is deeply frustrating, and illustrates that she doesn't learn, but the remedy is already in effect, to ban her from posting to noticeboards. A site ban would be punitive. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - An immediate 24-hour block would be in her own interest to keep her from alienating her supporters, but that isn't the way we do things here. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - So, it seems pretty divided on whether or not a siteban is necessary. However, almost all of the opposes support a larger topic ban, related to anime and video games. Can it be assumed that the site ban supporters would also support this sort of topic ban? If so, then I would think we have a good consensus building for that at least. Sergecross73 msg me 12:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Sergecross73 I'm fine with an indef Japanese Culture ban (Anime/Manga/Video games/etc), but I see it only as kicking the can down the road 2 months till LB attempts to claim that the TBan was unfair and they shouldn't have to abide the terms that the community imposed on them (see also their indef article probation which the current "complaint" is a imposed topic ban from). I'll accept the indef topic ban if you promise that the next time that LB comes back stirring up trouble in the topic space that you carte blanche agree to sitebanning. Blocks haven't worked, Article probation hasn't worked, Limited scope page bans haven't worked, and Im almost certain that topic bans won't work. Hasteur (talk) 13:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Indeed, it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. If this is all dropped as "no consensus" and no action is taken, then not only was all of this a waste of time, but it'll just lead to more disruptive Lucia discussions, which will just ultimately lead us right back here again in 6 months. She takes absolutely no ownership towards any of her shortcomings, so there's no reason to think she'll stop otherwise. Sergecross73 msg me 13:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I would also support a Anime/Manga/VG broad topic-ban as an alternative remedy. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 13:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

One could consider a broad topic ban analogous to how a doctor may excise an area of cancerous growth (and I am in no way comparing Lucia to a cancer, I'm comparing the process) but to prevent it spreading may cut a much larger portion or even the whole organ out. However, if as Hasteur predicts that we're just kicking the can down the road, i.e. the growth has metastasised, then there's not much more that can be done than to close up shop and call it a day. And if Lucia takes offense at my analogy, I do profusely apologise. A shortage of sleep and an impending move has left my creativity desperately short. Blackmane (talk) 15:13, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment In all the years I have worked in anime and manga articles, I have never had a problem with Lucia Black nor has most other editors in the same topic area. While I have seen her get bull headed at times with a couple of editors, I don't see that as grounds for either a site or topic ban. It appears to me that there is a small cartel of editor who are far too eager to ban anyone who they thing is creating drama. Such bans should only be reserved for editors who have demonstrated to be extremely disruptive or unwilling to work with anyone and should not be used for editors whom you are tired of hearing of or from. —Farix (t | c) 12:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • TheFarix Surely we can agree that the sum of the positive contributions should always exceed the sum of the distractions for every user? In that case please consider the numerous times that Lucia Black (either in concert with other editors in the subject area or by themselves) has been the subject of a topic at any of the Administrators Noticeboards (AN,ANI,ANEW) and see that their first chance, second chance, one more chance, and final chances have all been burned up. It's not a few activist editors looking to punish a user, it's the community standing up and saying No More. Her disurptions greatly outweigh her positive contributions, so it's time to be done with this persistent irritation. Hasteur (talk) 13:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment/Question - Given Lucia's history (a half-dozen AN or AN/Is, 3 blocks in the last 2 years, 3 different sancions currently in place, persistent battleground mentality, unwillingness to compromise, etc.), the arguments made by individuals that they personally haven't had any problems with her and that consequently she should be left alone to carry on doing what she does are entirely unconvincing. Suggestions that those who have taken umbrage with her behavior are part of a conspiracy to silence her are equally silly. An editor's history can demonstrate patterns of behavior in need of correction. Once these patterns are acknowledged by the editor then they can be addressed. If the editor is unwilling or incapable of addressing these behavioral problems then further sanctions are warranted. I am interested to hear from Lucia Black A) whether she acknowledges that her behavior needs to improve and B) whether she can give any examples of steps she has taken to improved her collaborative shortcomings since the last set of sanctions were imposed. -Thibbs (talk) 14:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Answer to User:Thibbs: Your questions clearly are well-meaning and optimistic. Apparently you are hoping that, by using slightly different wording, you will actually get answers. I hope that you are right, but only in an empty sense, because I have no hope that she will answer your questions. All that she has done is to ask the same questions over and over again, such as what our real issue is, or to make the same statements over and over again, such as displaying her dislike for another editor. I haven't seen evidence that she intends to change her behavior, or any examples of changes to her behavior. Lucia: Can you answer these questions straightforwardly? I would prefer that the questions be ignored rather than getting the usual repetitive reply. Thibbs appears to be more optimistic than I. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:36, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Let's not critique her response before she gives it. She is the single person in the best position to provide evidence of any actual efforts to improve her behavior and if she can acknowledge that she needs to improve further in order to meet the standards of the community, then perhaps a sanctions of the ban variety is not yet necessary. Basically I'm looking for any sign that she is trying to improve herself in response to the obvious annoyance of her peers and I want to hear what she will say for herself. If her answers demonstrate that she is unwilling or incapable of addressing these behavioral problems then I'd support further sanctions. -Thibbs (talk) 22:58, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Despite these allegations of battleground editing, I think Lucia's good contributions definitely outweighs all others. Several other members of the community including myself have worked well with her and especially regarding Anime articles, she does seem to do a lot of good work. I absolutely oppose a site ban and I hope others can see it that they think the same. A site ban will not solve any problems (and is harsh), and maybe even a topic ban wouldn't solve anything. Maybe some work can be done to prevent further disruptions and the disagreements, but a site ban doesn't seem to work it. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 18:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Jaguar Thank you for that wonderful "Xe's a good person" response. Your response if effectively a nullity. Her conduct in multiple locations (including that Video Games discussion) clearly indicates that she sees anybody who disagrees with her viewpoint as an opponent to be defeated by arguing every point over and over until the opponent relents. Low level discussions wind up to be multi megabyte threads that get argued into no consensus, Medium level dispute resolution (including DRN) gets argued into a "I'd rather see this trashed than a change occur", high level dispute resolution (such as AN/ANI) gets argued untill she skirts by with the most minor of sanctions. How many more times is the community expected to deal with her persistent and unreformed disruption before she is restricted to prevent further disruption to the encyclopedia as a whole? Her contributions may not be Grade-A disruptive inside the subject area she edits, but when her actions cause multi-meagabyte discussions to occur outside the subject area her contributions redeeming values are greatly outweighed by the disruption they cause. Hasteur (talk) 18:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Perhaps when AN becomes a forum for neutrally weighing a user's actions, instead of an arbitrary and inconsistent mudfight, some of that will matter. I've changed my comment above to an oppose. Lucia is guilty of disruptive and obnoxious behavior, but I've seen far worse slide by AN and AN/I on far shakier grounds. Sitebanning Lucia, while users like SNAAAAKE!! run roughshod over every civility policy unimpeded, would be a laughable miscarriage of justice. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
      • So you won't take care of the bad things on the sole basis that there are worse things also not being taken care of? That's so laughable that I'm not even sure you're being serious. Let's never ban anyone again, because there is obviously always a worse, unbanned editor. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 20:16, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) JimmyBlackwing, Niemti/Snake was indef blocked for quite some time, is currently in the middle of a 4 week block, and has been very close to being sitebanned again on a few occassions. I wouldn't see him as a bar of acceptable behavior, but rather someone who's probably on his way to another indef block himself... Sergecross73 msg me 20:19, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
        • He's been "probably on his way" to such a block for years. And Salvidrim, the point is (as I said yesterday) that Niemti has consistently skated by on the grounds that he generates content. If that defense works for him—one of the most widely despised editors I've ever seen—, then it should work for Lucia. That is, if we're trying to be even remotely consistent, rather than arbitrarily picking favorites. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
          • Wow, talk about setting the bar low. Also, "arbitrarily picking favorites" makes absolutely no sense. What are you proposing? Don't even discuss banning an editor until they pass below the extremely low Niemti standards of civility? It'd be one thing if you were saying that to a bunch of Niemti defenders...but I'm not sure you've done the research to see that's the case here, and that certainly doesn't describe myself. But we're getting off topic. If you tolerance for behavior is truly that ridiculous, I doubt I'll convince you of anything... Sergecross73 msg me 20:42, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
            • My point is that content generation apparently covers over a multitude of sins, even for someone like Niemti. Therefore, the same should apply to a productive editor like Lucia, whose tantrums are almost mild compared to Niemti's. I know that both you and Salvidrim have gone after Niemti in the past, but it doesn't change anything—I was criticizing AN and AN/I in general for picking favorites. So, unless everyone at AN has decided that the content-generation defense is no longer valid as a general rule (instead of being Niemti's get-out-of-jail-free card), Lucia should not be sitebanned. I've never worked with her, and I find her behavior at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games repulsive, but I find arbitrary AN decisions even more repulsive. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
              • While I don't know Niemti well enough (I think I've only come across him once) there are some editors here that despite their disagreements and disruption, they can produce good quality work albeit the setbacks that sometimes they provide. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 21:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment/Opposse Siteban - I only have a rough idea of the situation regarding Lucia's past appearances here so I'm not going to try and debate the details. I can't judge the time spent by people on this subject. Lucia is a passionate editor, which can be both a blessing and a curse. I'm reminded of a another editor who while very experienced and good at writing quality articles could also find themselves in volatile situations. Unfortunately when two passionate editors are on opposing sides of a debate, it's no surprise things can get heated - it's more surprising if they don't. It's not necessarily deliberate, these things can simply happen very quickly and as such get out of control before you realise it. That said, it's something that should be learnt for the future so reoccurrence isn't a good sign. Personally I simply don't get involved in potentially contentious pages for this reason. In general Lucia's contributions to Wikipedia are of quality and she is one of the most significant contributors to WP:Anime. Is that a defence for any questionable actions? No, but I Oppose a site ban on the grounds that a already overwhelmed project would suffer as a result of a site ban. However, I think Lucia would help her cause if she voluntarily dropped the whole Ghost in the Shell topic, regardless of what subpage it may be, simply because it would show an attempt to meet halfway and there are many other pages she could work on instead. I also suggested she back down on any other contentious matters or further attempts to argue against any measures and drag others into it which make things worse by trying to argue the same point continuously . In short, I disagree with a site ban based on my experience of working with her, but believe Lucia is really not helping her case. SephyTheThird (talk) 20:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Standard Oppose based on insufficient evidence to take the most drastic move. Topic bans and blocks are available before we go to a site ban. This does not seem like a site ban case to me. Doc talk 21:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Her content contributions outweigh the perceived level of disruption. A topic ban (of some scope that we could define) could be viable, but I think a site ban at this point would be incredibly inappropriate. Artichoker^[talk] 22:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Artichoker Thank you for your highly informed opinion. Clearly you've done your research and see that Lucia Black is already under an indef IBan with one editor, an indef TBan from filing AN* requests (even with leave of an Administrator), and an indef Article Probation (see Wikipedia:Editing Restrictions). If these lower level ways to dissuade LB from being disruptive, I think we would have found them already. Hasteur (talk) 13:08, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Hey, that's not necessary. None of what you said contradicts Artichoker's statements. If you dispute that Lucia's content contributions outweigh her disruption or that a topic ban would work, explain why. Tezero (talk) 13:44, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Hasteur said the same thing to me in the same manner... ☠ Jaguar ☠ 13:58, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
      • When you all present the "She's not causing any disruption" argument repeatedly when it has been refuted many times (and proven in this thread), you only show your innocence. The fact that we have multiple people using this same argument suggests in my mind an externally coordinated campaign to keep enabling Lucia. A Interaction ban hasn't worked (as she violated it in this request when she tangentially referred to the editor she is IBanned with), a Topic ban on filing AN* requests has failed (as evidenced by this thread where she points the finger everywhere except at herself), and Article Probation is the cause of her current TopicBan across GITS, a one month block (back in October) caused no improvement in her editing. Having witnessed her unique method of debate, I can recognize the same hallmarks of "respond untill they get tired of you" debaters. Put a number to how many more times she is allowed to disrupt wikipedia and how many more times she is allowed "one more chance" before we write her off as a lost cause? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hasteur (talk • contribs) 14:18, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
        • That's a strawman; we're not saying she hasn't been disruptive at all (in fact, I noted in my oppose vote that she has), only that we feel her positive contributions outweigh this. That you disagree with us doesn't mean there's a conspiracy afoot. Now, I will say I didn't realize a topic ban had already been tried. (I must've missed the word "TBan" in your last response.) Having said that, I don't think an indefinite siteban is an appropriate next step, particularly when Ryulong, who in my experience has been at least as disruptive, has had no consequences anywhere at near this level and no one besides Lucia seems to be advocating for that. (SNAAAAKE!! [sp?] I personally don't mind as he mainly just exposes policy loopholes in a sometimes irritating way, but with all of the widespread vitriol against him, I'm surprised he hasn't been put up here as well.) Tezero (talk) 15:12, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
          • Tezero See above arguments of "Just because one more disruptive editor hasn't been sanctioned doesn't mean that we should sanction the user of discussion here", that's a pitiful Other Stuff Exists argument and not a valid reason for not sanctioning Lucia. Ryulong has been sanctioned before (Via Desysop by ArbCom remedy). Yes Ryulong's behavior is similarly disruptive, but they have the redeeming quality of enough enabling friends to defeat (or argue into no-consensus) any proposed sanctions. I've also advocated for heavy handed sanctions on Ryulong as well for the exact same disruptive threads that pop up at AN* over and over again only to be shouted down as being too strict. Ryulong is not the subject here, SNAAAAKE is not the subject here, Lucia is the subject when she is attempting to overturn a page ban. Hasteur (talk) 15:44, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
            • Rude.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:59, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Hasteur, I would have more appreciated a reply that wasn't dripping with useless sarcasm. I don't quite understand how you can unilaterally judge my opinion to be informed or not; that honestly really puzzles me. Additionally, you don't get to randomly make unfounded accusations that people are colluding offline just because the hardline position you hold that she be banned doesn't seem to have enough support. Because it's within my areas of editing and I do have a vested interested in the Anime and Video Games Wikiprojects (the Anime and Manga Wikiproject talk page discussion was how I learned of this originally) is the reason why I chose to participate in this discussion. Person who contributes content to those areas -> someone I'm willing to scrutinize and see if I believe they really deserve a siteban. It's that simple. Just because I disagreed with you doesn't mean you get to throw around a bunch of undeserved snark. Artichoker^[talk] 23:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support. LB has demonstrated no willingness to engage in collegial editing, and instead has repeatedly shown a battlefield attitude. Some here have suggested a topic ban, but since LB only works on one area, that suggestion is effectively a site ban. I don't think LB will ever become a courteous colleague, not in Japanese entertainment topics nor in other topics. There is too much combativeness for that. Binksternet (talk) 06:32, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose any indefinite site ban or topic ban, but I'm open to maybe one more temporary topic ban. I haven't really interacted with Lucia Black as much as some of the other editors here, but from what I can see at the Anime and Manga WikiProject talk page, she really works hard, especially in a time when the WikiProject has relatively few active editors (there are maybe only 15-20 of us who are very active on the project), and has made a lot of great contributions, such as Good Articles. If she has to leave the project, it's a very large void that has to be filled, which may not easily be done given the apparent low interest among users in joining the WikiProject. I have noticed that she has sometimes been a little disruptive in her actions, but for the most part this is really only affecting a few users (mainly Ryulong), and her good points far outweigh her wrong points. Even in this case, I think a site ban, particularly one that is indefinite, is too much. I've read on this discussion that she has already been banned/blocked a few times, and soon after restarted her actions, but perhaps this time will be different, and she will change for the better after this discussion. If needed, I would support one more topic ban (Japanese media articles) for a definite period (maybe a year at most), then, if her actions continue, I'll see what happens. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 22:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. This comment suggests someone has shared the benefits the user has brought to the project: "The amount of time and effort wasted on the relentless drama surrounding her has far surpassed whatever benefit she may bring to the project." But, I don't see any effort to identify the positives of the user. Just the negatives. I have to admit, I seem to always oppose bans, and maybe that's due to my own inexperience with all the forms problems can take here. I just don't like the way these discussions always seem to pile negatives on one side of the scale, with no effort even to mention the positives. The statement I quoted seems to be intended as a given, but, actually, it requires evidence. What is the user's best work? Shouldn't everyone wanting to ban know the best work of the editor to be banned? So we know what we're losing? Howunusual (talk) 14:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

  Howunusual Shouldn't those who want to retain her effort in Wikipedia demonstrate how her positive actions have surpassed her detractions just the same way that those that want to keep an article at AFD must present a justification for keeping? Hasteur (talk) 12:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

No I think negativity has the burden of proof. Howunusual (talk) 15:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. What's more, I think it problematic that this user's request for review of a overly-broad topic-ban is being used as justification to eject her from the community entirely. betafive 20:56, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

  Betafive If LB had asked for the topic bans for GITS to be overturned and presented a GAB styled justification we wouldn't be in this place. As it's evident that her appeal to have the page bans overturned is flying like a lead brick we have to consider her appeal in the history of all the threads that she has initiated, been party to, or the subject of to see that her contributions are seen as a significant net negative. Hasteur (talk) 12:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

  You don't know that for a fact, if she did have her topic ban overturned the thing to do would be to have a discussion over at the article regarding Lucia's ideas. I highly doubt that Lucia just all of a sudden started acting disruptive. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per reasonings by AngusWOOF and Knowledgekid87. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

• Note: Lucia's recent participation at an organizational discussion on the manga Uzumaki is of note here. Personally, I think she's doing fine and conveying etiquette that is, at least on the surface, reflective of a changed woman. Tezero (talk) 05:13, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose While I don't think her justification for the modification for her sanctions was at all acceptable, I don't feel that she should be further punished for questioning the sanctions alone. This action if not passed in previous proposals should not be passed now on the basis of request for review. AlanS (talk) 09:28, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

  AlanS see above response to Betafive dated this same time. Hasteur (talk) 12:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - there are other actions that can (and should) be taken before a site ban. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 15:24, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose- per Betafive. Excessively authoritarian. Appealing sanctions is not a crime to be punished with more extreme sanctions. Reyk _YO! 01:50, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Ghost in the Shell

As I pointed out above I feel this whole issue stems from GITS, topic banning Lucia forever from editing anime/manga articles does not seem like it is the right way to go, or even for GITS for that matter. Looking back at the archives [1] there has not been any real discussion of Lucia's planned changes to the articles the only thing I saw was from a year ago. As for the merge discussion it did not get a wide scope of editors that joined in so I understand why Lucia feels like it was a weak consensus. My suggestion is to have an RfC on the GITS article on Lucia's proposed changes to the article to get more editors to weigh in and put this matter to rest. @Lucia Black: if you got more editors to weigh in on your ideas would you be open to accept the results and move on? I do not care what happened in the past as it all stemmed from this and would like to put this argument to rest. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I am still convinced that if the GITS issue is fixed and Lucia accepts the results then things will change for the better. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:08, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

That's a huge if. These issues have been spanning months. I don't know why you'd have faith that a simple RFC would solve this problem where so many other RFC, DRN, ANI, etc, have all failed in past disputes with these anime-related articles. Sergecross73 msg me 02:55, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Im looking at the first section here is all, what other anime related articles are there? Have the arguments been with the same editors to reach a consensus or have different editors been involved? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:47, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• Indefinite ≠ forever. An indefinite ban can eventually be overturned if the editor re-earns the trust they previously violated, by becoming productive, civil, and non-disruptive in their editing in the rest of the wiki. If they can show that they can be an unambiguous asset to this project, and that they've learned from their previous infractions against community standards, then the topic ban can be rescinded. VanIsaac_WS^cont 05:28, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• The issue is finding out the spark that ignited the fire to begin with. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• As far as the RfC goes, we're going to need to have one eventually either way since the argument is long-running and the WP:CONTENTFORK implications are significant. The only question is whether we can get the Usual Suspects to limit their contribution to said RfC to just making their statements and letting the community hash out the argument, rather than sniping at each other or (as is the habit of one editor who shall not be named) constantly trying to restart the discussion in a more favorable venue. --erachima talk 01:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Question or Comment

If you, User:Knowledgekid87, are proposing an RFC on Ghost in the Shell as an alternative to Lucia's topic ban from Ghost in the Shell, I don't see that there is a consensus for the unban. There appears to be a consensus at least to retain the ban from the three GITS articles. I understand that you think that an RFC will be an alternative to the current limited ban and any proposed bans, but it appears that you have a reasonable opinion against consensus. I suggest that this subsection be closed (unless I have misjudged consensus). Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I feel the RfC will help as that is where I feel the source of all of what unfolded lies. A choice was made that involved just 3 or so editors for a major merge. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:57, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

There wasn't a merge though. The action of the subsequent dispute resolution et al. was that my words were misinterpreted and after circular arguments someone unrelated broke the tie and everything was split up.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:06, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Whatever there was then regarding GITS it needs to be fixed so the river of calmness can flow once again here (Feels like a fortune cookie). Seriously though something major was left unresolved and it led to all of this, I feel that Lucia's ideas should be heard out and a firm consensus be held on it rather than people taking these issues to ANI, AN, ect.... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• The RfC's necessary due to the content dispute, not the conduct issues. The conduct issues are a relevant concern because they have been what prevented the content disputes from being resolved previously (either by active disruption or by rendering the environment so toxic that nobody was willing to engage the issue) but even if all the belligerents were on block the underlying disagreement would require a conclusion founded on something other than attrition.
  The real challenge is how to conduct the RfC without it itself being disrupted by attempts at other process run-arounds or the page being flooded with hundreds of kb of bickering that drown out all community discussion. I believe an associated topic ban actually would be useful there, not from editing any particular article—they can burn the articles down while the discussion is ongoing if they feel like it, won't alter our ability to determine community consensus at the end— but from participating in the RfC beyond making initial statements or attempting to start other DR processes before it ends.
  And if the conduct issues continue after consensus is achieved? Well then, as far as I'm concerned you can just global-ban everyone involved. --erachima talk 21:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I just wanted to clarify that I propose the removal of the topic ban for the talk pages of GITS so that this RfC can be had regarding Lucia's ideas. Like erachima said if there is a firm consensus on GITS as a result and Lucia breaks it then I can say no more and would be more supportive of punishment being handed out that does not involve a full site ban. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

We're getting to the stage that discussion seems to be winding down a bit. To my eyes, there is obviously no consensus on a site ban and as such it may be pertinent for the ban discussion to be closed off, if an uninvolved admin would care to do so. I proposed a topic ban from Anime, Manga and Video game related articles but I don't believe that there is sufficient evidence produced that would warrant such a measure and will withdraw that option. As it stands, the only remaining point would be to ascertain whether there is community endorsement of the ban from all Ghost in the Shell related articles. After which, this should bring to a close this particular episode. Blackmane (talk) 13:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• As one of the initial proposers, I agree with the assessment that there is consensus against a siteban, and no concensus on an Anime/Manga/VG topic ban. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:35, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I do not agree that there is no consensus on a topic-ban from Anime/Manga/VG. There are more supports than opposes. I am satisfied to let a closer decide whether there is consensus. I think it is clear that there is no consensus to reverse the ban on all GITS articles. In any case, I request that the closer also warn Lucia that the community's patience has already been exhausted, and the only question is what if anything should be done about her disruption. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I will clarify that is not true. about 2/3 (if not more) of the votes are oppose. so i highly suggest you recount. Lucia Black (talk) 03:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Since TParis is a respected, uninvolved admin, and also closed the previous discussion (and thus is familiar with the situation), I have asked him if he would be willing to assess this discussion also. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

If he (or no one else) does not do so, I would be willing to look at it tomorrow, although please note, as there is much reading to do, I would likely shut down the thread by closing it, and subsequently post a finding thereafter. Of course, hopefully someone will close it before then, but if worse comes to worst, just call my name, and I'll be there. Go Phightins! 03:07, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, not all votes regarding the topic ban are placed there. For example, I oppose a wider anime/manga/VG topic ban, but I implied this in my oppose vote to the siteban when I said I didn't think it should get any wider than the GitS topic ban. (I'll add a notice, but other voters may be in the same situation.) Tezero (talk) 03:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Upon re-reading the discussion, there were only a few voices that discussed the topic ban from anime/manga/VG, mine as proposer, Robert and Salvidrim as support, Tezero as oppose. Given the sheer number of participants in this discussion there's no way that could be deemed a consensus. For the time being, I'll put my endorse of the wider GITS articles ban. We might be kicking the can down the road as was mentioned before, but I don't really see the benefit of pursuing an anime/manga/VG topic ban. I'm sure most participants here have more or less exhausted themselves on Round N-1 of Lucia. Whether something else crops up to give us a Round N or a Round N+1 is to be seen. @Lucia Black: I believe that you've mixed up Robert's reference. He was referring to a consensus for a broad topic ban, not the site ban. Blackmane (talk) 09:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, i was refering to that aswell. i'm sorry, but i dont understand how you explained that in the last few sentences. what does "N" stand for? Lucia Black (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Variable (mathematics) --erachima talk 09:29, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Appealing block conditions

I was unblocked from editing Wikipedia in January 2014 under various conditions which are available here. Two of these conditions was that I was prohibited from uploading any files claimed as my own work. I also may only upload files which are not claimed as your own work via the Files for upload process. You may not upload any files outside this process. These prohibitions may be appealed at here no earlier than 07/08/2014. It's the 15/08/2014 and I would like to appeal these said prohibitions. I have adhered to the rules imposed on me since January and have followed Wikipedia's rules to a tee. I have no interest in breaking them and would like to remain a member of the community. Ashton 29 (talk) 04:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• I have a background question for you: Did you actually upload any files through the FFU process, and if so, which images? VanIsaac_WS^cont 05:20, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Ashton_29/Archive - This is extensive. It gives me pause. I see in your unblock request that you say you are not using socks anymore. I will take your word for that. I have not examined your contributions in detail but I have seen your talk page history and it does seem that you have not run afoul of your restrictions at all. I am on the fence. Chillum 05:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Seems fine to me. Protonk (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• I'm going to support lifting the restriction. However I would point out that your FFU requests indicate CC 3.0, when in fact most of the ones I've checked have been CC 2.0. I don't see where anyone has pointed it out to you, and the actual uploads have ended up properly tagged. Just be careful with that in the future. Monty₈₄₅ 14:35, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Neutral only because I haven't studied the details of the restrictions on his uploading of files (so that I won't oppose). However, I cannot support any further easing of restrictions on someone with a long (even if old) history of being a sockmaster. He should realize that he has gotten off easy being unblocked at all in January, with his long history of disruptive sock-puppetry. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @Robert McClenon: "He should realize that he has gotten off easy being unblocked at all in January, with his long history of disruptive sock-puppetry." How is this operationalized? Should Ashton 29 not request an appeal of their unblock conditions? Should they be more contrite when doing so? Is it your position that these restrictions stay in place in perpetuity so that Ashton can learn their lesson? Protonk (talk) 15:54, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Basically, I don't think that anybody who has a long history of sock-puppetry can be trusted on anything. I am usually in favor of giving disruptive or tendentious editors a second chance or a third chance. I don't apply the same logic to serial sock-puppeteers. Maybe he has learned. Some editors believe that every editor should be given another chance. I usually believe that, but repeat sock-puppetry is a particularly serious offense. That is my logic. Maybe some editors think that sock-puppetry is part of the game. I don't. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

In other words, "Fool us once, shame on you; fool us a few dozen times, shame on everyone"...? Ian.thomson (talk) 18:10, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Ashton 29 is still insufficiently careful in his use of others' work. A quick look at his current talk page shows 13 FFU requests since mid-May, of which 2 were rejected. (Both involved Flickr images; one had been uploaded to Flickr as a copyvio, and one was a duplicate of an image already on Commons.) As noted by Monty845, many of the successful FFU requests also provided incorrect license information.

Also troubling, about ten days ago he was flagged copy-pasting text from an external site into Adelaide Hills (wine).

Text from Ashton 29: "...While the first vines were planted in this area in the 1840s, the influx of boutique wineries in the 1970s introduced the area to bottlings of sparkling wine, Chardonnay, Riesling and Pinot noir. The area is beginning to see success with Cabernet franc, Merlot, Sangiovese, Sauvignon blanc, Semillon and Shiraz. The cool climate of this region encourages winemakers to use malolactic fermentation to help tame some of the wines' naturally high acidity...."

Text from external site: "...While the first vines were planted in this area in the 1840s, the influx of boutique wineries in the 1970s introduced the area to successful bottling’s of sparkling wine, Chardonnay, Riesling and Pinot noir. The area is starting to see success with Cabernet franc, Merlot, Sangiovese, Sauvignon Blanc, Semillon and Shiraz. The cool climate of this region encourages winemakers to use malolactic fermentation to help tame some of the wines' naturally high acidity...."

Ashton 29 was notified immediately by CorenSearchBot, but he has yet to take any steps to correct this problem. Taken together, I cannot recommend an easing of his restrictions at this time. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:53, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

On the rejected FFU submissions, I don't think the one that was already at commons should count against them. As for the other, if this wasn't someone who should be taking extra care, I would say that an editor could be taking an appropriate level of care and miss something like that note on flicker; though I can also see how you might demand a higher level of care from someone who is subject to such a restriction. Monty₈₄₅ 20:02, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest that anyone who intends to be a prolific uploader of images should be taking extra care to get the licenses right—something that he isn't doing. (That includes, as you noticed, on images that survived FFU.) Given that these restrictions were originally placed because he had been falsely claiming other people's work as his own, the fact that he is copy-pasting content into articles – and can't be bothered to clean up after himself when it's pointed out to him – is not a good sign.

Actually, I've just taken a closer at the article, and I'm having trouble finding a single word he wrote himself, rather than copied from somewhere else. I'm deleting it as a WP:CSD#G12. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:27, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I would like to address a few things. Particularly the two FFU rejections and copyright content on Adelaide Hills. As far as uploads go, one of the images already existed on Wikipedia but I had no knowledge of that because of the process that I have to use. If I used the regular uploader it would have told me that the file already existed. I only found out it already existed on the website after I went back to check the status of my request and I believe once I had realised it was already on Wikipedia, I removed my upload request. I am unaware which image was a copyvio and would like someone to point that out to me and provide me with a link so I can explain. It's very likely, no it's actually definite that I would not have intentionally uploaded copyvio because this would obviously jeopardise my chances of remaining unblocked on this website. Also, no, nobody pointed out to me that my requests were CC 3.0 but the uploads were different. When I request an upload, I'm usually meticulous in checking that the requested license matches the one on the Flickr page, so I don't understand how most of the ones you've checked have been contradicted licenses. The main thing is that they ended up on Wikipedia with the correct license tags, though.

As for the Adelaide Hills article, most of that text I took was from a related Wikipedia article (South Australian wine) and I had no idea it was copyrighted from another website/external source. That is the editor who pasted it onto South Australian wine's fault and I don't know who nor when that was. You can go to that article and see where I got the text from here. I'd like to state again, I did not know this text was lifted from another website, I assumed it was Wikipedia's content as it is from a Wikipedia article! I'm going to be more careful with what information I select from certain Wiki articles from now on and anything I type while be my own words, not words from any other article since the possibility of entirely original writing can be so tenuous. Also, I find it interesting that TenOfAllTrades states that he had "trouble finding a single word he wrote himself, rather than copied from somewhere else." The only bit copied from elsewhere was the bit already mentioned. I wrote the rest myself.

My intentions are good, honestly, and it's a some of you cannot see that. Why can't it be recognised that the aforementioned slip ups (the two FFU uploads and the Adelaide Hills article) throughout the past 8 months were accidental. I have no interest in sock puppetry and have completely learned my lesson with regard to that. There's no point in even trying to get away with it on Wikipedia. It's a waste of time and can be detected so easily. Like I've stated, and thought I demonstrated since January, I'm trying to be a constructive Wikipedia member. Ashton 29 (talk) 07:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

For future reference, the guidelines for copying Wikipedia content within Wikipedia articles are here. Flagging the copying in (at least) the edit summary can help avoid attribution issues like this. In passing, thanks for also removing the copyvio from the related article. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:19, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll do so in future! Ashton 29 (talk) 08:35, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that the external site says (copyright 2013), and at least some of the material at our article seems to have been here since 2007. By Nov 2012, our article had pretty much all the content. Whilst that in itself is not conclusive (I haven't established exactly when the external site really added the material) - I'd say it might very well be unclear just which way the "copyvio" actually goes here, and we should probably be careful what we assume.
There's nothing at webarchive.org for lannister.com.au prior to 2013, and an Australian ABN search says LANNISTER GROUP PTY LTD was created 2012 (Dec) - though the content could have been at a different url prior to that, or it may have come from here, a mirror, or another copy. This kind of uncertainty often occurs when old content is copied/mirrored. Of course, that's why always getting the attribution right is vital, even when copying within wikipedia. Begoon ^talk 08:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

(Looking at the history of our article at South Australian wine, one also wonders if some of the phrasing is actually lifted from the sources cited there: The Sotheby's Wine Encyclopedia and The Oxford Companion to Wine. In particular, the phrase about malolactic fermentation feels very specific and 'dropped in' without much context. That qualm doesn't bear on the Ashton's request, however.)

I remain concerned about the "wrote the rest of it myself". The passage Ashton copied from the South Australian wine article is larger than the section I quoted above, and constitutes most of the article. The small remainder comprises some puffery (the first sentence of the article was "The Adelaide Hills are internationally renewed for its wine production.", which contains at least two errors) and a borrowed phrase from another external source.

From Ashton's edit: "The region...has produced 90 wine labels with over 40 cellar doors."

From the external source [2]: "...over 90 wine labels and 48 cellar doors...".

While Ashton did cite the source, this remains problematic from a number of perspectives. First, it changes what the source says, from "over 90 wine labels" to "90 wine labels" – which is incorrect – and from "48 cellar doors" to "over 40 cellar doors"—which is at least still correct, but less precise. Second, it seems to be trying to reuse another author's metaphors and turns of phrase (the rather artful talk of "cellar doors" instead of "wineries") while mangling the passage just enough that quotation marks can't be used. Third, the effort to launder and use the borrowed metaphors would have been better spent writing a clear and unambiguous paraphrase, e.g. "In 2014, the region's 48 wineries produced more than 90 different wines."

I wouldn't harp on this so much if this sort of borrowing weren't evident in other parts of his recent history. At Maggie Beer yesterday, for instance, Ashton made

this edit: ""Her parents faced issues with bankruptcy as she was growing up and re-invented themselves as caterers."

based on this source: "...her parents who, after going through the trials and tribulations of bankruptcy re-invented themselves as caterers."

Again, a totally unnecessary reuse of someone else's turn of phrase. Is there really no other way to become a caterer than to re-invent oneself? To be clear, I attribute no malice to Ashton's actions. But I cannot recommend relaxing restrictions on an editor who has not (yet) internalized the necessary attitude and skills to properly respect the work of others. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Heh - it's funny you mention that. I did look at the history of the wine article a little, and, yes, I suspect the 2 "sources" you mention may have been quoted from somewhat "enthusiastically", shall we say. As you say, that's not really pertinent to this request, and sadly, probably not uncommon, either.
Back on the subject of this request, I suppose, yes, I'd still be quite concerned that the copyright awareness still isn't there. I also looked at the SPI, and that is a massive amount of disruptive socking, which still makes me nervous, that not being helped much by the comment above - "There's no point in even trying to get away with it on Wikipedia. It's a waste of time and can be detected so easily.", which might just be unfortunately worded, but seems to beg the question: "...and if you did think you could get away with it...?" If that sounds too strong an interpretation - yes, it may be - but it nags me it may speak to a mindset, in a way, so I've voiced it. As I say, I'm a little nervous about this. It's awkward, because the socking isn't really part of what's being asked - but neither do I find myself 100% able to look at the scale of it, and discount it from my thoughts. That's why I'd still be firmly on the fence. Sorry if that doesn't help, in the end. Begoon ^talk 16:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Just as an addendum, the edit summary of "If casual editors are going to edit Wikipedia, then at least learn how to do it properly" for this minor correction: [3] doesn't seem like the kind of message we should be leaving for an IP editor who introduced that small issue as part of this series of a dozen edits: [4]. Perhaps Ashton might consider something along the lines of "fixed minor bracket error" next time, so as not to WP:BITE a user making positive contributions. There's still, it seems, a whiff of "ownership" in edits concerning images on Australian articles, which is worrying. Begoon ^talk 06:39, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@TenOfAllTrades: Looking at the first edit ("The region...has produced 90 wine labels with over 40 cellar doors.") I don't see any problem. The number of labels and cellars is a fact and, provided the source is cited, is difficult to plagiarize. Sure, the order could be reversed or the sentence otherwise disguised, but there are only so many ways to state a fact about a subject. The second edit is a bit more like close paraphrasing, but remove the word "re-invented" and we're back to describing a fact. Protonk (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The issue is how the numbers (the facts) are actually changed, though, surely. "Over 90" is changed to "90", and "48" is changed to "over 40". That's unnecessarily imprecise, and in the latter case inexplicably arbitrary, and shows that the skill of knowing what to rephrase and what not to is maybe lacking. It's not completely horrible, but when these factual things are altered, whilst creative phrasing by the author is copied without alteration, such as in the "re-invented" example, it suggests that while Ashton knows he "has to change something" so as not to plagiarise, he still lacks some skill and care in identifying how to properly do that and still remain faithful to the source. Begoon ^talk 16:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

• Of your last 10 FFU requests, all 10 have the wrong license version listed in the license field indicating Creative Commons 3.0, when they are in fact 2.0. Your link to license information leads to the correct 2.0 license. 3 requests, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. The image being mentioned as a copy vio, is Image at flicker archived request. The problem with the image is that information on the Flikr page indicates the person uploading it probably did not have the authority to release it under a creative commons license because it says Image courtesy the Department of Environment, Water and Natural Resources. Honestly, its ambiguous at best, while its true that the uploader is not the copyright holder, it is possible, but unlikely, that the image was release to the uploader by the government under a creative commons license. Monty₈₄₅ 11:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I would note that the preload templates for the forms Wikipedia:Files for upload/Wizard/Preload/Attribution-SA actually have a comment in the code <!-- You should be OK to leave the above section alone --> below the 3.0 license template this is in error in your requests. Maybe we should add a warning that flikr uses 2.0 to that. Monty₈₄₅ 11:59, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I believe the incorrect license issue is happening because I have to use the FFU process and there are only two options for Creative Commons and I have taken a screenshot of them here: [5]. Not to mention the <!-- You should be OK to leave the above section alone --> message.TenOfAllTrades questioned that because I made the statement "There's no point in even trying to get away with it on Wikipedia. It's a waste of time and can be detected so easily.", that I may possibly engage in sock puppetry if the process wasn't so easy to detect. That's simply not true and I believe you are taking advantage of what I said (or rather, the part that I didn't say). Of course I wouldn't do it, even if I could get away with it. I understand that the way I worded that was alarming, but I didn't intend to give it any malicious subtext or allude to the fact that I would do it again. Honestly, I have no interest in breaking the rules around here. It took me a long time to learn this, and during that time I did partake in extensive sock puppetry. That was then, and what we should be addressing is my behaviour now. The copyright text was just lazy editing on my behalf, and also probably the fault of the author who put it into the Adelaide Hills from either the sourced books or the external website. Who is to tell the external website didn't copy it from somewhere itself? I also find the reference to my edit on Maggie Beer a bit arbitrary or inconsequential - it's not plagiarism, the wording has been altered and it's suppose to give an outline on how her family's financial hardship have played a role in her career. Ashton 29 (talk) 08:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't TOAT who pointed out your "socking" statement, it was me, and I did give the proviso that you may have just badly worded it. It's one of a couple of concerns I outlined, including one with an edit summary, which you haven't addressed, and I also said that they result in me being "nervous", and "on the fence", not opposed. I certainly wasn't trying to "take advantage" of anything (whatever that means, in this context), just giving voice to how I personally reacted to that statement, along with an explanation and some pretty extensive caveats. Begoon ^talk 09:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

As for the edit summary, it is not my intention to be hard on editors who are just trying to help, but I really don't like lazy editing and obvious mistakes. I admit I certainly make them myself from time to time and in future I will not leave such comments and just fix the errors instead, with an impersonal message in the edit summary (e.g. "fixed minor bracket error"). All I'm asking for is a chance, given my January 2014 broke repeal and the conditions in it. Ashton 29 (talk) 05:05, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Gül and Erdoğan may sue Wikipedia for accusing them with corruption

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Abdullah Gül and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan may sue Wikipedia for accusing them with corruption in the Politics section of the Turkey article. There is no court decision in Turkey which has found them guilty of corruption so far, and there is no ongoing trial in Turkish courts with allegations of corruption. May I warn you that, from a purely legal standing point, Wikipedia might get into trouble in terms of being forced to pay a substantial fine.

Also, the Law section in the Turkey article resembles the film Midnight Express in terms of its exaggerated portrayal of the situation in Turkey. There isn't a similar section in any other country article in Wikipedia, including the countries of Latin America and Africa which are notorious for their far worse legal systems, police brutality and organized crime.

The article Turkey is currently locked due to disagreements on the aforementioned sections. 88.251.86.240 (talk) 15:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Blocked IP for legal threats. Seems to be a sock anyway, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lord of Rivendell. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Some edits

Please delete talk page of User:Adil afridi as promotional and check edits of user page--Musamies (talk) 01:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I did, and it doesn't really look like blatant spam or anything else warranting speedy deletion. Nyttend (talk) 01:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Wiki-PR again

See WP:Articles for deletion/Emad Rahim (2nd nomination). A new article has appeared, produced by two SPAs, for a known Wiki-PR client who was unhappy when his paid-for article was deleted last year. This seems to me clear enough evidence to block Ssbokc (talk) and Kevinpoised (talk) as meatpuppets of a banned user editing in contravention of the Terms of Use on Paid contributions without disclosure, but I would like another view before I do that. I would normally take an issue like this to SPI, but WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Morning277 has been effectively closed down with rules including You must be reporting a sockpuppet, not a meatpuppet and You cannot use editing the same article or topic area as evidence, so I bring it here. JohnCD (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, SPI can't do anything for meatpuppets. The nature of checkuser tools cannot prove a relationship between accounts that are not using the same computer which is part of the definition of meatpuppetry. In any case, I think the community's feelings on Wiki-PR are clear - if it smells at all like Wiki-PR then block. As far as former Wiki-PR clients go, only established users should probably go anywhere near those articles. Perhaps indefinite protection level 2 should be placed on all of those articles?--v/r - TP 17:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Usually we semi-protect articles which are repeatedly recreated. Semi-protection of course can be walked around, but I would still start with it.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Since this is an evolving situation, pending changes may be the way to go for Wiki-PR-related articles. Miniapolis 23:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I do not see how Pending Changes is the least applicable. -the article has already been created. The question is not how to prevent further editing, the question is whether o and how to get rid of it. (Or is PC usable to prevent creation of an article, like protection is?) And what would constitute a Wiki-PR related article? An article we're suspicious about but cannot prove? (This particular article, it gives me the impression that it was from another source--possible a university Press Agent--the style is different, tho I think it better not to say just how. Of course, they could have learned to imitate it.) DGG ( talk ) 04:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I do not think pending changes can prevent creation of a new article. This would be weird. I think some sort of protection may be required, the question is whether it is semi or full protection.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:48, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Procedural help request on Adminstrative action

I was browsing the adminstrators noticeboard a few minutes ago and came across what I consider to be a very bad block by an Adminstrator, having read the relevent policy cited under which the block was justified. As the section is now closed, with an explicit "do not edit this section" warning, could someone please advise me what the escalation procedure is to flag what I consider to be a very bad block?

Many thanks,--Savlonn (talk) 21:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Generally you want to talk to the blocking admin first, and see if you can sort it out that way. You can appeal here, but I should mention that appealing on someone else' behalf often causes problems. Monty₈₄₅ 21:39, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Urgent semi protection

WP:RPP is backlogged. Can an admin kindly semi-protect my talk page for one week. ? --Vigyani_talk^{ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} 05:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Done by Mike V. --Vigyani_talk^{ਯੋਗਦਾਨ} 06:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)