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Lir

Lir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sorry for boring everyone again with this guy, but I'd like to work with him. I've just been through his contribs and I can see there's some useful stuff there to help the encyclopedia - the problem is his disruption and trolling. I'll be honest from the start - I'm not his biggest fan. I would however like to work with him and act as his mentor, but obviously under strict instructions as follows;

"Lir is placed under community parole. If any of his edits are seen to be trolling, uncivil, assumptions of bad faith or any other form of disruption, he may be blocked for upto one week by any administrator. After 3 such blocks, the maximum block length is extended to one year/indef. He is placed under the mentorship of Ryan Postlethwaite and is expected to abide by his jurisdiction. Further, he is limited to one account and anymore evidence of sockpuppetry will result in an immediate indefinite block."

I realise that he's been an idiot with the socking, but there does seem to be some good in him and hopefully I can knock it out of him. I'm not scared to block him myself, and I would expect him to follow exactly what I say. Anyway, just putting that out there. Ryan Postlethwaite 04:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I found his lack of restraint in the last attempt to be very frustrating, but I support trying again. If somebody wants to seriously write article content, as Lir does, we should try whatever we can. That being said, if he screws this one up, he should be blocked for at least a year before he gets another try. Everyking (talk) 06:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I've watched this for years, Lir might be the first time I ever heard about ArbCom. You can try, Ryan, and I know that Lir has submitted great content. My philosophy in this case is the motto, "If you go looking for trouble, you will find it." Collaboration and compromise is not censorship and that's something he has to accept. That's really all I have to say about that. Keegan^talk 06:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Even as I think that we ought to keep an eye on Lar—I've always been a bit leery of adults who like LEGOs—I think the instructions read better were they directed at Lir. Joe 07:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Ha! Keegan^talk 07:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Joe! You blockhead, how could you say such a thing? As for the confusion about instructions applying to me? It's always been said I don't follow directions well, and there was confusion about Lir/Lar as far back as my RfA (see question 6) All that said, and with a tip of the hat to Ryan for willingness to try, no, I don't think this unblock would be a good idea. ++Lar: t/c 23:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Ryan notice that I offered to unblock him if he agreed to a similar set of terms and he refused instead telling me i should unblock him and take my case to arbcom to get authorisation. That completely disregarded the fact that I didn't block him in the first place. He has also treats DR like a quasi legal system. However if you can get him to agree to those terms, I don't see why he shouldn't be unblocked - they are very similar to some I provided. However, make sure he really understands the terms, or I will be first to reblock. Viridae^Talk 07:21, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to say, Ryan, I think you're being highly optimistic. I have no hope at all that Lir can become a useful editor again. I did have hope when it came to the lifting of the ban recently, but he did nothing to suggest that he has any intention at all of helping the encyclopaedia. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 11:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

No. Is there an section where I can put in my vote on this or whatever? Seriously, why do we want to unblock someone that's caused enough hassle to have been blocked for three years? All that will happen is that a month down the line we'll be back here again discussing whether to ban him again. His ban was so long in the first place because he kept on socking, vandalising, disrupting etc. And he comes back and we want to keep him? Good grief. No. No content is that valuable that we need people poisoning the environment and causing drama as much as that. The harm he's done to the Wikipedia over the years far outweighs any possible good content we might get out of it. -- Naerii · plz create stuff 11:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

No. This is a bad idea. I can't think of a single instance when one of these admin-led quasi-paroles was successful, and I can think of at least one where it was demonstrably unsuccessful, to the point of disruptive. Mere days ago he earnt himself a re-indef-block, mere days after finally expiring a multi-year ban lengthened repeatedly by his own interminable intractability. There is no evidence that an unblock will cause anything other than further heartache, and before long we'll have yet anohter thread here discussing the block, with someone claiming they thing just one more chance is all it takes. The end of the road was back there somewhere. Enough is enough. Wikipedia is not therapy; for anyone. Splash - tk 13:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The contents of this edit (removed inexplicably by the 'single purpose tagger') are interesting. Splash - tk 13:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting certainly but why would someone create a sockppuppet account in order to accuse others of being sockpuppets? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 13:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

• Not sure this is a such a great idea. Ryan, I know you've worked miracles before, but Naerii is right. We can do without Lir. Any worthwhile content he might contribute is not worth the price we will have to pay - the disruption he will inevitably cause. Moreschi (talk) 14:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
• Um, no. When an umpteenth chance lasts less than 48 hours, there is no chance umpteen+1. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Please no, I'm getting flashbacks. I don't think this is a good idea at all. And the idea of having to cycle through three one week blocks is rather "sigh-some". I was all for giving Doc's unblock a go but all he did was prove that he hasn't changed one iota since his banning. I would be really surprised if Lir even agreed to this or took it seriously beyond seeing it as an opportunity to resume his trolling and disruption. With utmost respect, Poss - you know I adore you - but this just seems to me like a very bad idea. I think that people who haven't been around all that long and don't realise how much disruption Lir caused back in '04 and '05 should look through the Arbitration pages and his old talk page archives and see that his recent behaviour is pretty much what led to his Arbitration case. It's not like he just came back feeling disenfranchised and pissed off and will get over it with a touch of mentoring. This is what he does and how he behaves. Sure, he makes a few good edits to mainspace articles but he is too disruptive and has made it clear time and time again that he has no intention or desire to do anything but troll us. Sarah 14:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I'm the one who reblocked Lir after Doc's attempt at giving him yet another last, last chance. If you do go ahead and unblock, I would recommend that you arrange in advance a complete prohibition to claims of censorship, one of his favorite trolling baits. — Coren ^(talk) 16:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I would oppose Ryan's proposal, if only based on the statement "knock it out of him". I doubt that, given my relatively short familiarity with Lir's personality, any method that includes any suggestion of force will achieve desirable results.

Aside from that, it doesn't seem like Ryan actually has very much in common with Lir. On the other hand I share interest in the discipline, propose collaboration on articles, and integration of Lir into an editorial team, and a Wikipedia Project. Aside from the fact that there is way too much writing to do within the project to worry about all the other issues, there are competent admins in the Project that are able to deal with any situations which may arise, and be able to evaluate Lir's probation over a period of 6 months, which I think is a significantly longer period to evaluate a person's intentions and abilities then a day.

Coren, while I appreciate your statement, I think the approach used in mitigating Lir's behaviour, and in community's ability to emphasize, has been less then ideal. While several editors above have expressed Lir's return from a negative perspective, I think a bit of positive thinking would not go astray, right? Here we have an editor who returns after a very long ban, and he starts to immediately contribute to an article! Surely that seem to indicate good intentions? He also starts to express his opinion on Wikipedia on his user page. So what? Do you think New York Times reporters are going to use Lir's user page for an expose on Wikipedia? I looked at it when I first read his declarations on the article talk. So the guy has issues with authority, tell me something new! The page had nothing to with the article, so I wrote to him. Lo and behold, beyond the facade was an editor with actual knowledge of the article subject, good sources, and willing to, even impatient to contribute! For crying out loud, does every 'tree' need to be uprooted to 'plow' a Wikipedia field?! I for one would be shocked if anyone returning from such a long ban had no feelings at all to express on the experience. Bitter and twisted people often suppress feelings and thoughts, and lie low, hatching plots. I don't see Lir doing this at all, so enough with amateur psychoanalysis, characterisations and labels. This isn't some TV drama. --Shattered Wikiglass (talk) 22:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Here we have an editor who returns after a very long ban, and he starts to immediately contribute to an article!

Wrong. His very first edits were as an IP , and they were to build his User Page as a billboard against The Evil That is Wikipedia and How I Have Been Done a Great Wrong. His very first edit was "I am the Lir. What I've realised is that the Wikipedia has been overrun by a bunch of morons. I used to care -- now I don't. The idea of a Wiki is a great idea, but the Wikipedia is überghey...", and his very first article edit doesn't come until after nearly three months of soapboxing. He's not really here for the editing. --Calton | Talk 04:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

What Lir did as an IP is another matter. However, lets try an experiment. Lets ban you for a year for a reason you don't agree with, and see how you feel about it later. I am not supporting Lir's behaviour, but I do understand it as typical of individuals in similar circumstances in the real world. Believe it or not, but Lir's behaviour since his most recent unbanning was normal! You just failed to recognise it as such. Did you expect a placid angelic-like Lir singing praises of those who banned him? If he did, that would have made him a liar, and anyone able to lie to oneself, can lie to others, those being Wikipedia readers. I would rather an editor called me a moron a hundred times then he/she write one lie that will be read by a thousand. Seemingly Lir's other "problem" is that he doesn't lie. I can live with that. Chill out Calton. Allow me to explain to Lir why calling people names, and living in the past is not healthy. Until this is internalised by Lir, voluntarily, it seems to me he can not be banned because currently he is still running on fight/flight instinct.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

What Lir did as an IP is another matter.

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Lir = IP, and its editing is his editing. The rest of your comments make even less sense: he was blocked for a year, yes, and his behavior is what led to the constant reblocking and the additional 19 months of block time.

Seemingly Lir's other "problem" is that he doesn't lie.

I'd say trying to hide your identity through sockpuppets counts as lying, but let's leave that aside. You believe that jackass behavior and trolling is okay if you're sincere, do I have that?

Until this is internalised by Lir, voluntarily, it seems to me he can not be banned

So his not understanding why he's doing something wrong is a reason NOT to ban him, do I have that? You've officially gone through the looking glass. --Calton | Talk 05:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

If you constantly hit someone over the head ("constant reblocking") to prevent behaviour, but behaviour change is not internalised as justified, the only thing that will change is the punshment avoidance strategy (not to get hit). You only joined Lir's vicious cycle, solving nothing.

Using sockpuppets (in this case) is not lying, but rather evading being constantly hit over the head.

Well, I didn't know there was anyone watching me...officially. Is 1984 your favourite book?

Lir understands very well what he did wrong, but seemingly others like to constantly remind him of this and make a point, a very large point, of showing him they don't have any intention of letting him forget. There is all this great talk of "Wikipedia community". Do you know what a community looks like, or do you live in front of a screen? A community is not judged by its firewalls alone. Community also welcomes, appreciates, understands, etc. All I have heard is "defending community". Let me spare you the time; lets have a welcoming interrogation committee so no-one will ever get banned. May I remind Wikipedians that we are a part of the freedom of information community, so lets not become the paranoid brigade.

What has Lir done wrong? He decided to create a user page that may be seen as undesirable? You Calton live in a country notorious for public scandals over deeds by public officials. You come from a country where morals of presidents have been found wanting. On a scale of Wikipedia "sins" within the thousands of user pages, does Lir rate public enemy #1? You (plural) have treated him as one, and he obliges every time. What a surprise. You'd rater have editors writing articles who will cower every time they are challenged...not. (Japan excepted; a different culture there)

Have you banned Lir because he consistently shows POV, uses OR, never cites sources? This is what I am saying, did you ban an editor, or his personality? If it the later, its only because you failed to 'connect', and seemingly never tried. You are the community "shoot first, ask questions later" cop. I had to connect, because I have the intention to collaborate with him. It all comes down to purpose and motivation. It seems too me Lir's most recent banning was snowballed, so please lets take a pause now that Lir has, and consider all sides of the argument for and against unbanning Lir. All he tells me he wants to do is edit articles. If he is lying to me, then I will be the first to support his indefinite banning and you will never hear from me here again. --mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You are talking such rubbish because you don't know Lir and we do. He tells he only wants to edit articles, he is lying and you are naive. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 12:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You only joined Lir's vicious cycle, solving nothing. - Actually, banning him outright seems to have solved everything neatly, without Wikipedia having to act as his therapist. As for the rest of your strange and tangential moralizing -- well, it was hard to read, what with my eyes constantly rolling. --Calton | Talk 15:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

No. No unblock. I had my doubts about letting him come back after reading his history, and after this past weekend, it's obvious he's too unstable for Wikipedia. Blueboy96 12:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Note that he is threatening to sock (in an email to me) but they all threaten that. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Lir joined Wikipedia in the early days, back when there were few rules, only Jimmy Wales could ban people, & we tried to talk the problems & disputes out. Lir couldn't handle even that permissive environment. People with a lot more patience than I tried hard to mentor Lir; it didn't work. So he was banned, & the only reason he wasn't banned for good then was that the software didn't permit it. I'm honestly amazed that he avoided getting blocked again as long as he did this time around. -- llywrch (talk) 22:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep him banned, forever. Lir has much to contribute by way of trolling and headache, but nothing useful besides that. His antics predate many of the users on this page who now so naively want to unban him, not realizing what they are getting themselves into. Much as he might need one, Wikipedia is not his therapist. Raul654 (talk) 01:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't recommend it. How much are you willing to bet that as soon as he strays from the confines, he'll start yelling for the restriction not applying to him without arbcom sanction, yell and shout as soon as he's blocked about censorship and cabals? — Coren ^(talk) 14:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

What the heck was Lir banned for in the first place? It seems that the RFAR was a mess, and he was only re-banned after he sockpuppetted, but I've got to tell you, I would sockpuppet too if I was unfairly blocked and no one was listening to me. It seems that Lir constantly talk about corruption and the cabal. THE CABAL EXISTS, there was evidence in that secret mailing list story that I just read. Of course most of these admines responding keep him banned are probably part of the cabal. I can say that Lir seems to have thrown some personal attacks but most were misconceptions and several personal attacks have been thrown at him too. Therefore, a new RFAR seemsto be in order. I would personally do it myself but I don't know that much about the case. Editorofthewiki 19:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's see. This is going to be nowhere near the complete history, but it should give you some idea of what his wonderful personality is like: He edits with an extremely distorted view of reality. He got into many, many edit wars, ruining a number of good articles, frustrating other legitimate users involved in them (causing several to quit), and Lir used many sockpuppets (in the days before checkuser and finding them was hard) to do so. When banned, he would use sockpuppets to duck the ban. He lies constantly - having conversations, then claiming he did not have them, then somehow remembering that he did in fact have them; claiming to have several adminsitrators and bureaucrat sockpuppet accounts, etc. On one occasion, after one editor (User:168...) had left because of Lir's constant harassment and trolling, Lir registered a near-identical username (User:168..) and pretended to be the original 168... returning after quitting in disgust. When confronted with sanctions for his behavior, he would claim censorship and demand due process (as defined by him). When banned by an arbcom decision written primarily by myself, Lir came back under sockpuppets, and created an article about my advisor. The article was complete fiction made up whole cloth by Lir, and was extremely libelous (claiming that my advisor was involved in Woo Suk Hwang research scandal). Oh, and Lir also filed a false police complaint against Phil Sandier (aka Snowspinner), claiming that Phil's fictional stories on his blog showed he was unstable and posed a danger. The police gave Phil a hard time, but after a story on boing-boing appeared showing their harassment, they went away. I'm sure I've omitted lots of stuff, but that should give you an idea of the kind of person you are dealing with. Raul654 (talk) 22:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this decided by consensus? ( I would be one of those opposing). Dapi89 (talk) 17:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Communuty bans are typically decided by the lack of admins willing to unblock. So far no admin has been willing to do that and my recent experience with lir leads me to believe that he is still very much the same problematic user that he ever was and would strongly advice against unblocking at the present time. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes I agree. Dapi89 (talk) 21:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed community ban of Mantanmoreland and Samiharris

I propose a community ban of

• Mantanmoreland (talk · contribs · global contribs · logs · block log)
• Samiharris (talk · contribs · global contribs · logs · block log)

The Mantanmoreland ArbCom case is apparently about to close, with 4 net votes to close in place. Therefore, I propose that the community act to tie up the loose ends here, by enacting a community ban of Samiharris as a disruptive sock and POV pusher, and Mantanmoreland as a disruptive sockmaster and POV pusher. I am willing to enact the ban myself after discussion. (but not until the case actually formally closes) As a reminder, despite ArbCom findings not specifically acknowledging it, the community has already found the evidence of sockpuppetry compelling, as documented in the RfC. I was debating where to propose this but this seems the best place. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Somebody ought to leave the occasional comment, lest this notice get archived. R. Baley (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Notice that: The motion to close the RFA/Mantanmoreland has been opposed by user:Newyorkbrad (for now) in consideration that this thread at AN/I may attract discussion. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? --Newbyguesses - Talk 20:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

They have closed the case because there are still a sufficient number of votes to close. This thread appears to be winding down, as threads do when they reach such considerable length. Jehochman ^Talk 21:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not over till we say it is. (quote from Animal House) SirFozzie (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

As of this moment, you're on double secret probation. (from same movie) - Dean Wormer 21:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I had wondered where ArbCom derived the wording of its remit from... serious question, how long does a topic have to be inactive before the archive bot does its thing? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

AN threads are archived 48 hours after no edits, ANI 24 hours. To check this (or indeed change it - oops, WP:BEANS....) look at the archivebot template at the top of each page (you need to click edit to see this). In this case, Miszabot and the time periods I stated. You can fool the dumb bots though by putting a "future" timestamp on this section (or indeed no timestamp, though I'm not sure about that). What you can't guarantee is that some human won't try and manually archive the subthread and manage to lose everything... :-) Carcharoth (talk) 23:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Nonstsndard sigs will also throw the bot, as what happened on 16 April 2007 with Quadell's one-post-only topic that wasn't archived until I manually redid the timestamp to be standard. hbdragon88 (talk) 04:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I was a member of the Deltas... but at da tech, not Faber_College, Also for the record I think this is the longest AN thread I've managed to start, so far. Not that I was trying for a record, mind you. ++Lar: t/c 23:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

For the record, following recent developments (block/unblock of Mantanmoreland), I am presuming there is another thread on this matter, somewhere? --Newbyguesses - Talk 07:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Requests for clarification on WP:RFARB. -- Naerii · plz create stuff 20:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Template:Cough LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding User Mhsb

• Mhsb (talk · contribs)

OK, in regards to the previous discussion, this user nominated ATI - Aero Transporti Italiani for speedy deletion under section A1 which I find highly disputable considering the article and the users record. They have now gone on a Speedy deletion spree and nominated dozens of articles in a few minutes with the same tag and same reason "It is a very short article lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article.". For example the article Blåbärskullen transmitter was nominated by them for Speedy deletion under A1 but this tag is incorrect as the page needs to be translated and the appropiate tag should be "notenglish". I could be wrong but I think this is absolutely bizarre behaviour. I'm not happy. --James Bond (talk) 14:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the many inappropriate speedy tags, deleted the few articles that were suitable for speedy deletion, and left some advice for the editor. I hope this resolves the matter.DGG (talk) 15:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Prediction: dude will be an admin within 15 months. :D Mr. IP (talk) 17:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I would like to express my concerns in creating a record in the Admin Noticeboard without notifing the users involved. Both users did the same: Admin SatyrTN and --James Bond. The warning messages at the top of this page cleary states that:

"As a courtesy, please inform other users and editors if they are mentioned in a posting, or if their actions are being discussed."

When acting as administrators, they are also expected to be fair, exercise good judgment, and give explanations and be communicative as necessary. I didn't see any of this happening with these two users I mentioned. They created an incident with my username without notifing me. They created an incident in the notice board, without investigating what in fact happened. The User:SatyrTN, didn't have time to investigate the issue and rather being communicative, he prefered to open an incident in the wrong place. The User :JackSchmidt noticed a page move I made on my page and asked User:SatyrTN to investigate my recent actions, which he found weird, and it really was if someone doesn't communicate and investigate what in fact happened. SatyrTN replied back saying that he didn't know what was going on (he didn't talk to me) and, in his own words, he didn't have the energy to deal with it. Again, he failed to communicate with me and posted an incident here, again in the wrong place.

The second user, not admin, James Bond, again, failed to communicate and rather by talking to me, he instigated propaganda against me by calling the User:Opinoso to the discussion, the same user I was having problems with edit warring, one of the reasons of creating the first incident report. He didn't call me to present my defense.

I would like to protest against these two users SatyrTN and James Bond. One misused their admin privileges against me. This page is not the place to raise disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour. They failed to communicate, clearly violating an admin conduct policy. User James Bond instigating propaganda against me by calling another user (with whom I previously had a dispute) to prove his point, is this a vendetta just because I added a speedy deletion tag to the article he created?

Please, I would ask you to talk to me or investigate what was going on before you post an incident against me. Again, you are posting an incident in the wrong place, I am not a Wikipedia disruptor to be listed in this page. If you have any issues with my actions that you would like to discuss please, use my talk page. Don't misuse admin privileges, you guys are here to help. Since those incidents are being reported in the wrong page I kindly ask you to delete this section. Thanks.

--Mhsb (talk) 01:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

First off, I would like to apologize to Mhsb for failing to notify them in regards to my entry. The reason why I did not notify them was because, (since I was picking up from the this recent discussion) at the time of my entry, EdJohnston had already notified Mhsb of the discussion that was taking place and because it's my first time here, I was unfamiliar with how things worked. In regards to Mhsb statement, and I quote "he instigated propaganda against me", I don't think I follow. I notified Opinoso regarding my post here has he was mentioned in the previous discussion that had been archived and I believed he was relevant. Again I quote "User James Bond instigating propaganda against me by calling another user (with whom I previously had a dispute) to prove his point, is this a vendetta just because I added a speedy deletion tag to the article he created?" I was not aware Opinoso and Mhsb had a previous edit dispute, I was only aware that, from the previous discussion that Mhsb, according to SatyrTN, misused AfD tags, therefor I believed it was relevant to my entry. Just for the record, since it dosn't seem to be clear, I have no Admin privileges, nor have I ever had any. In regards to the issue of the incidents being reported in the wrong place, I cannot comment for SatyrTN, but in my case, they were about deletions and specifically the use of speedy deletion tags, therefore they should have been under Incidents - My mistake. --James Bond (talk) 04:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Since the previous ANI thread commenting on Mhsb for eccentric editing, it would be good for his reputation if he would confine himself to uncontroversial work for a little while. (An editor at ANI proposed that he be blocked for 36 hours). It is also a concern that he archived all the previous warnings from this Talk page, some of which were quite serious. Otherwise he will increase the general impression that he is very intelligent but does not know how to work with others. EdJohnston (talk) 23:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

That's OK EdJohnston, I acknowledge what you said. I will forfeit myself in editing controversial issues for while, since this has been damaging my reputation, in that point I must agree with you. Regarding archiving my talk page, I don't share the same idea, what is the advantage in not archiving my talk page if everything written there is damaging my reputation? Furthermore, there is no Wikipedia policy that prohibit me from doing that. So I am not sure if I followed you when you say "It is also a concern that he archived all the previous warnings from this Talk page,..." Quite honestly, I'd rather had been blocked than being constantly challenged by my previous actions. I had already asked apologised the user User:Dúnadan‎, I explained my past action to other admin users and I don't want to spend all my time here having to defend my self since from my point of view I didn't do anything wrong, and if I did have some mistakes, I assure you that I was acting in good faith.

--Mhsb (talk) 02:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC) --Mhsb (talk) 02:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I Don't Know if my Uploaded Photo is Restricted

I recently uploaded a photo. The link is Image:Sim Family Watching T.V..jpg‎. The thing is, it is from The Sims. The makers of this PC game allow owners to publish their videos and pictures taken from the game on media-sharing sites like YouTube and Photobucket. I assumed it was same for Wikipedia. I just want to be sure I'm correct.

what is thast cat doing? And why is there a midget in a suit under the chair? Viridae^Talk 04:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't ask, you don't want to know ;-) in response to the matter at hand, unless the publishers completely release all rights to the content or explicitly state that the images can be used for anything, anywhere there should be a fair use rationale. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Caribbean H.Q., that cat is definitely directing traffic. El_C 07:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that there is a paranormal apparition that the cat sees that the humans do not. We need further investigation as to whether or not this is proof of ghosts. I advise we set up a new noticeboard. Keegan^talk 07:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You shall not puss? El_C 07:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• groan* I like the concept that the cat is surreptitiously fighting evil forces while mere centimetres away the family is unaware of his continuing efforts to save them from harm. The midget in the suit is perhaps the originator of the evil with which the family pet grapples. Viridae^Talk 09:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

When you say evil forces, you mean something very specific and organic, right? Relata refero (talk) 10:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

That evil coloured clud thing. Viridae^Talk 11:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, though, this is the third or fourth image-rights question I've seen on the main noticeboards in the last few days. Is there a centralised location where these should be brought? If not, that might be a useful new noticeboard. Considerably more useful than some of the recent ones that haven't taken off, I should add. Relata refero (talk) 10:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I HAS SEEN GOSTES?!? caknuck _° is kinda hungry 23:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Media copyright questions.Geni 12:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Aha, of course. Well, I'll move all further instances of questions of that sort there. Relata refero (talk) 12:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Deletionpedia

Picked up at DRV[1], according to its description Deletionpedia is an archive of deleted Wikipedia pages.[2] They 'rescue' the full edit history of pages.

An automated script does the following:

• A Wikipeida user tags a page on Wikipedia as a candidate for deletion.
• They upload all pages which have these tags to a temporary store.
• They check Wikipedia's deletion log, which lists pages which are deleted from Wikipedia.
• If the page which was deleted is in our temporary store, they upload it onto the Deletionpedia wiki

I checked a recent deletion of mine and found the deleted page. User:H2g2bob might be able to fill in more details, e.g. if it requires an account on wikipedia. Sorry if I missed a related thread and you all were already aware of this.--Tikiwont (talk) 20:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how this is a problem. If something doesn't meet Wikipedia standards, we get rid of it so that it isn't waisting space on our servers. If this site wants to keep junk articles, they are free to do so, the articles were, after all, freely licenced. The one problem might be if they were using an admin account to look at deleted articles that were deleted for legal reasons. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 20:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• deletionpedia.dbatley.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

Interesting, going to add this one to COIBot, this is not exactly something that is useful as an external link to have in articles for those that did not make it into this 'pedia. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 20:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Taking the whole history avoids copyright problems, but I can see this becoming a problem in terms of attack pages, especially attack pages against Wikipedia editors. J Milburn (talk) 21:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is not a problem; the articles were freely licensed under GFDL, and anyone anywhere is allowed to use them, as long as they attribute it back to the source. In this case they have gone the extra mile and retained even the contribution history, which would not be required. We only require something like "some content has been taken from from Wikipedia" to appear on the footer of the site, along with the GFDL licensing information. So we cannot censor other people's use of our content just because we decide that we don't want that content anymore. Jerry talk ¤ count/logs 21:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello. I can confirm this is my website. The idea behind it is that a lot of pages on Wikipedia can (and should) be deleted because they're not encyclopedic. But they should be kept somewhere because they're interesting, and because someone has often put a lot of work into making the pages. Another advantage is having the full edit history available for pages held on mirror sites (avoiding possible gray areas with the GFDL).

Uploading attack pages is not my intention: I'm willing to CBlank or delete any that I find, or introduce something to the scripts if there's any good way to do it. --h2g2bob (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

To answer Tikiwont's question, it does not have an account at all on Wikipedia (but it does use the api --h2g2bob (talk) 22:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Would it be easy for you to at least not upload pages in either Category:Attack pages for speedy deletion or Category:Copyright violations for speedy deletion? Someguy1221 (talk) 22:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

(ecx3)They're already kept, just with the history hidden. Trying to make other sites comply with the GFDL is a hiding to nowhere. And you will be over-run with crappy, idiotic and libellous pages, to which you will have a responsibility to some degree. Good luck to you. ➨ REDVEЯS is a satellite and will be set alight 22:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Redvers is right. If anything, focus solely on the XfD pages. Things that are speedied are speedied for a reason. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Someguy1221 - checking my code, I'm only looking at 'Importance or significance not asserted pages for speedy deletion' and 'Contested candidates for speedy deletion' (in addition to PROD and AFD). Contested could include attack pages, so I'll add a check against the deletion reason. --h2g2bob (talk) 22:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I note that the current Deletionpedia main page "Page of the Month" is one that was speedily deleted under G12 for being a copyright violation.... not sure that's the wisest speedy criteria to be harvesting. Bencherlite^Talk 22:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, my initial post was to share that this exists. It is clear that any problems with the contents are not ours. Nevertheless, it adds a new level of transparency to our deletions since one can search e.g. for topics or deleting admin [3]. with the deletion discussion conveniently linked and reposting of content a piece of cake. So if the site scales up, it may develop into a significant change in deletion as we'll be having a public trashcan with all its potential and drawbacks and actually a step towards Pure Wiki Deletion. (Since I don't think the resolved tag is applicable to this thread and it discourages taking notice, I removed it. This can be archived if there isn't anything else to say.)--Tikiwont (talk) 10:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

with respect to reposting of content, it will have an side effect that will be a benefit--it will enable any editor, not jut an admin, to check whether an apparent reposting is indeed essentially the same content and thus justifies a G4 tag for speedy deletion. We should thus be able to get rid of the unchanged repostings more easily and more accurately.DGG (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, someone should report this to Coren, his searchbot should include this domain and tag articles accordingly .. :-) .. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you man that he is searchbot should not tag them. If it was posted here under GFDL, and was not originally a copyright violation, reposting is not conceivably a copyright violation. DGG (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Should I be terribly happy or terribly sad that something I deleted is featured as the list of the month?.  :) Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 16:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

This does not seem to be a problem for Wikipedia, but the person doing this might think twice. DMCA may (or may not, not tested in court) protect Wikipedia from certain liabilities by shifting them to contributors, but anyone who reposts Wikipedia articles assumes that liability, and anyone reposting them wholesale assumes all manner of actionable liabilities embedded in the articles. But anyone reposting articles which were deleted for a reason assumes an even greater concentration of higher-risk liabilities. Quatloo (talk) 16:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Sweet, my internet rep rises everytime Deletionpedia archives non-notable resumes like this one, soon I should have enough power to overthrow Jimbo as chairman emeritus. <evil smile> - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge help needed

Hello! I hope this is not an inappropriate place to post this notice. I was doing some cleanup work with our Cameroon-related articles, and I noticed a couple of articles that should be merged: 2008 Cameroon protests and 2008 Cameroonian anti-government protests. The former is far more comprehensive and well-developed (if I do say so myself), but the latter is probably better titled. I would therefore seem that the sensible thing to do would be to merge 2008 Cameroon protests to 2008 Cameroonian anti-government protests, basically replacing that page, but using the longer title. However, the page histories should also be merged, I think, to preserve everything for the GFDL. Can someone assist? Thanks a bunch. — Dulcem (talk) 00:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

No responses. Should I post this somewhere else? — Dulcem (talk) 04:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears from the histories of these two pages that they have been standing on their own and developed independently. A history merge only applies to cases where a cut&paste move has been performed; there is no cut&paste move here, so there's nothing to fix, hence no need for a WP:HISTMERGE. You may use the normal editorial merge and note your merge in the edit summary, or give a link on the destination article talk page. That should be enough for GFDL. :) For the record, requests for history merging should go to Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen, but I understand that this noticeboard is often considered a preferable venue as it is watchlisted by more admins anyway. :) --PeaceNT (talk) 05:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! I think I did everything all right . . . . :) — Dulcem (talk) 03:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

AfD throttling?

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Astrid Peth

This AfD was closed by Edokter (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) - an admin active in the relevant WikiProject - only 77 minutes after being opened. He closed it "early" (an extreme use of the word!) on the grounds that no reason for deletion was asserted. I'm at a loss to follow that reasoning (AfDs often result in a "merge" or "redirect" conclusion, and this should be no different), and as nom, would ask that it be re-listed for some actual discussion to help reach the conclusion? After one comment by an involved user and less than 80 minutes' of "publicity", I don't think that an involved admin should close. Any thoughts? —TreasuryTag—t—c 18:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

You asked as nominee that it be merged, not that it be deleted. if something is desired to be merged it shouldnt come to afd in the first place. Se WP:PM for the correct procedures. DGG (talk) 18:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't, actually, I said that the character failed WP:NOTE and intended a discussion to take place in which people voted keep, delete, merge and/or redirect, as per the usual procedure at AfD... could we not let this take place, then if/when people say merge we can merge? Why shouldn't we? —TreasuryTag—t—c 18:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

But the character obviously doesn't fail note, considering the 37 references. With that, any suggestions of merging or moving belongs on the talk page, not in afd.--ÐeadΣyeДrrow (Talk | Contribs) 18:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

(Closer's comment) I closed the AfD indeed because no reason for deletion was asserted, and TT basically suggested a merge with Voyage of the Damned. As deletion was not going to be either a desired or likely outcome (Nom suggests a merge and article is currently a good article nominee), I decided to close the AfD, as AfDs should only be started when actual deletion is desired. Good faith nomination, but I just think a duscussion for a merge is better suited elsewhere. — Edokter • Talk • 18:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Treasury, what you are trying to accomplish can be accomplished with appropriate merge tags. See WP:MERGE, or as DGG said, Proposed mergers. If you feel the outcome will be/should be "merge", AfD (D stands for deletion} is not the right place. You need to initiate a talkpage discussion. Yes, it's true, that sometimes a result of an AfD is merge, but it shouldn't be the stated nominator's wish. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

As I understand the actual practice here, it usually goes as follows: if you think the content though appropriate as content within an article is not worth a separate article, you should propose a merge. If consensus at the article talk page disagree, and think it is appropriate for the article to be kept separate, and you still think it does not meet our general standards for articles, then bring in back to AfD , with the intention of removing it altogether. If at this point the consensus should be a merge, the general discussion at AfD before a wider audience gives sufficient consensus for overriding the discussion at the article talk page and carrying out the merge. (alternatively, it might confirm that the article is justified as a separate article, or decide to delete, usually on the grounds that sufficient of the content is already present in the general article.) But why involve all of us of the general body of editors participating in AfD if the people working on the topic can reach a satisfactory decision by themselves? I do not favor keeping fragmentary articles when there's a better alternative--such ought generally to be merged & I think most people usually agree on that, at least as a compromise that can get a ready consensus--but we would bog down altogether if every one of the tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) that need it had to go to AfD to get it done. DGG (talk) 22:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

If you disagree with the way an AFD was handled, you can always request a deletion review. Aecis^Brievenbus 22:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested moves

Wikipedia:Requested moves is building up a hearty backlog. Some attention and assistance would be appreciated. Thanks! Vassyana (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It so often is: I've never understood why that page is backlogged so often. As far as admin tasks go, I would have thougt that that one is fun, and requires engagement with the material. Relata refero (talk) 23:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Orangemike Speedy Delete of Bernard Spitzer

Resolved

User:Orangemike has placed a speedy delete on Bernard Spitzer and earlier deleted the article arbitrarily against policy. Given that there are 16 references and a book about Spitzer who built the largest apartment in New York City. However you can read the comments on my talk page and you will see that he wants it deleted because it is not of interest outside of New York. I have asked him that if he wants to delete he should put it up for a standard afd nomination and he has refused. I am concerned that a speedy delete will destroy considerable information without a proper process. As mentioned he has already done this before on this article. I am personally surprised given some pleasant interaction between us before. This is not personal. I just want to protect the article of which there is immense interest. Americasroof (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Take it to deletion review. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

This belongs at deletion review as suggested above.--Hu12 (talk) 19:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Article still exists so no need for deletion review at moment. I have contested the speedy deletion as I don't think it meets the A7 speedy criteria. It is significantly better than the previous versions of the article that were speedy deleted. Suggest anyone thinking it should be deleted should take it to AFD. Davewild (talk) 19:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. That's really all I wanted. If the issue pops up again I will bring up the history. Thanks again for speedily resolving this. Americasroof (talk) 19:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/ImageResizeBot‎

Due to the recent controversy over image bots, I thought I'd alert you to the request for approval of ImageResizeBot, which can be found at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/ImageResizeBot‎. Please comment there to keep discussion fairly centralized. :) Thanks. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 19:08, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

New\alternative template for requested moves page.

I just thought i would mention that i have created a template as an alternative to {{RMlink}} at {{RMlink?}} which is for those who are undecided over the new name. It is to accompany {{moveoptions}}. Just thought i would leave a note here. Simply south (talk) 19:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Harassment

Ongoing harassment by

• Jbutera (talk · contribs)

including use of several sockpuppet IP addresses. User is removing tags from certain pages, spamming a commercial website that sells products. Rather than discuss the revisions, the user makes personal attacks in the revision comments, and makes personal attacks on my talk page. 74.228.158.68 (talk) 19:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide some diffs? I've had a brief look at his contribs, and have found some civility issues in his edit summaries, but I haven't found the behaviour you're talking about. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are two from my talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A74.228.158.68&diff=198770773&oldid=197577160 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A74.228.158.68&diff=198908588&oldid=198770773

Look at the revision comments for this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chicago_Gaylords&action=history

The talk page is the most obvious. 74.228.158.68 (talk) 21:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Civility issues are obvious and Berian warned him, suggest block on next occurrence. Pls give spam diffs, I don't see them. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

A Chat with the Executive Director (and other wiki folk.......)

my 'spam sense' is tingling somewhat, but I shall nervously point your attention in any case to Wikipedia:NotTheWikipediaWeekly where we've just published what I think is quite an interesting conversation with Sue Gardner, our Executive Director - you can also listen to the previous chats with Danny Wool, and hear what interesting wiki types like Durova, and Raul654 sound like in the 'real world'. Oh - and if you think I bang on 'on-wiki' - you 'ain't heard nothin' yet! - Privatemusings (talk) 04:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Kneesthey unblock request

Resolved

Kneesthey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User Kneesthey vandalized Wikipedia:AN/I twice, replacing it with a redirect to Genital wart. The first was [4] followed by a reversion by C.Fred. Kneesthey again redirected Wikipedia:AN/I to Genital wart: [5] . I noted the reversion by C.Fred and the final warning on Kneesthey's talk page, reverted the second incident of vandalism by Kneesthey and indefinitely blocked Kneesthey for abuse of editing privileges, in that his two edits indicated he is no inexperienced editor. Kneesthey then requested the block be lifted [6] on the grounds he did not vandalize after the final warning by C.Fred, [7] which was placed after the second of the two acts of vandalism. Should I lift the block or reduce it from indefinite to a shorter block, because the final warning did not precede the second vandalism? Edison (talk) 04:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Regardless if the account was given a final warning or not the edit pattern displayed obvious SPA, vandalism-only tendencies, I support the block. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Good block. Reason for requesting unblock is not convincing, since he is clearly an experienced editor. EdJohnston (talk) 04:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Would bet money this is a sock. Lots of money. Endorse indefinite block. Tanthalas39 (talk) 04:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

(EC)Looks like a fine block to me. Tiptoety ^talk 04:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The user was here for no good reason. Good block. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 04:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Need help with dispute with Spellmanloves67

There seems to be a problem regarding the relevancy of materials being posted on several articles about WebCT, University of California, Irvine, Capella University. Another user, Spellmanloves67 continues to place materials about a lawsuit that does not seem relevant to the articles. When I've tried to chat with him, he seems to get very angry. I've noticed that he has been warned many times before as evidenced by the archived versions of his talk page. He also continues to erase his talk page so it is not possible to continue a discussion. I really am not sure what to do but wanted to ask for help here. Thank you very much.Sxbrown (talk) 04:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I will pop over to his talkpage, and see if we can limit those articles that has the link. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Spellmanloves67 has once again added the non-relevant material to the WebCT article. Again, he refused to discuss it on the WebCT talk page. He also stated on my talk page that he "can concede the other areas but will not on WebCT" even after this matter was moderated by LessHeard vanU. Is it possible to lock the article in order to prevent further vandalism? Thank you for your help. Sxbrown (talk) 09:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Rudolph Valentino page

Im sorry all I am good with on Wikipedia is editing; I dont know all this admin stuff so I hope someone can help and sort this out. Its a bit of vandalisim; a bit of an edit war; and in need of protection as well (new users and vandals like to get their hands on this page). I like to keep an eye on and edit silent star pages. One such one is the Rudolph Valentino page. A new user who seems to have been involved in several edit wars before named User talk:Kevin j started adding lots of little information in hundreds of small edits; citing a fan site the first time. He left me a dirty message when I reverted one edit as it wasnt citeable and did not fit where he put it (I however left his other ones). I responsded calmly and rereverted the same edit.

The next day there was another series of small edits; he left me another nasty message before he did them saying his source was such and such book. I looked at the new edits and found them acceptable but in need of a little copyediting. So I moved some paragraphs around to flow better and took out one unciteable and hard to prove statement (whether he would have transitioned talkies or not; for certain that users statement is untrue for Valentino by his recordings had a strong Italian baratone voice). He left me ANOTHER nasty message trying to goid me into a talk page mud sling with him but I didnt reply. He then reverted my edits saying they were 'crap' and 'not cited' though all I had done was cleaned his very edits. I reverted them again but HELP please!

I have worked on many obscure pages and beefed up many silent star pages including Olive Thomas and Jack Pickford. This guy seems to do nothing but annoy people. I want some protection to the page, him to quit harassing me, and another editor to take a look at the edits that have been made and feel free to judge for themselves. Thank you. --Thegingerone (talk) 06:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't have the time to examine this in great detail right now, so to kick things of for other admins, this diff seems to set the tone between Kevin j (talk · contribs · logs) and Thegingerone (talk · contribs · logs) with regards to this article. While I have not yet checked all sources added here, one that jumped out at me was this one by Kevin j as a citation to describe Valentino's voice: the source discusses a seance that Valentino apparently took part in 36 years after his death. At the moment I cannot play the audio file on this page, but I cannot help but be a little sceptical about the validity of such a source.

By looking at both users' talk-pages, it should also be noted that neither participant here has an absolutely clean record in disputes like this. - 52 Pickup (deal) 10:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I am aware that this was a senance, but it also gave people a good description of Valentino's squeaky voice that had aired on old broadcasts. Senances are a lot of time cons that alter a person's words from old speeches. I intend to use more recordings, and this was only my first one.Kevin j (talk)

Since LeithP was the one who recommended that I face a topic ban on this noticeboard, how can he have the final say in the matter. As I see it, the community was divided - with Desione and Bobby Awasthi siding with me. If the decision had already been taken unilaterally by LeithP, what was exactly the point of this entire circus? DemolitionMan (talk) 07:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This refers to the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#User:DemolitionMan thread above, if anyone needs background. Leithp 07:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears Ronmotel closed that, not Leithp. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

To be precise, Leithp declared the topic ban, and Ronnotel officially "closed" the thread about 45 minutes later. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Hence, isn't there an obvious conflict of interest here? Two admins discuss on their respective talk pages, bring the issue on the noticeboard and take the decision despite at least two other editors besides me disagreeing. How is that a consensus? DemolitionMan (talk) 17:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Not sure why the thread about User:DemolitionMan was mentioned here. Relevance? The admins don't overlap, neither do the editors involved.
• Someone mistakenly deleted the header for the User:DemolitionMan thread. I've reinstated the thread below (for the record).--RegentsPark (talk) 23:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• The conclusion about Valentino's 'squeaky voice' needs a reliable source. An editor listening to a recording is not enough.
• There is nothing about any of this on Talk:Rudolph Valentino. Talk is always good, when changes may be controversial. EdJohnston (talk) 22:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Clarification

Since LeithP was the one who recommended that I face a topic ban on this noticeboard, how can he have the final say in the matter. As I see it, the community was divided - with Desione and Bobby Awasthi siding with me. If the decision had already been taken unilaterally by LeithP, what was exactly the point of this entire circus? DemolitionMan (talk) 07:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This refers to the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#User:DemolitionMan thread above, if anyone needs background. Leithp 07:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears Ronmotel closed that, not Leithp. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

To be precise, Leithp declared the topic ban, and Ronnotel officially "closed" the thread about 45 minutes later. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Hence, isn't there an obvious conflict of interest here? Two admins discuss on their respective talk pages, bring the issue on the noticeboard and take the decision despite at least two other editors besides me disagreeing. How is that a consensus? DemolitionMan (talk) 17:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

As asked, how is that a consensus? Do the voices of Caucasians carry more weight or are they accorded priority according some Wikipedia policy I am not aware of? DemolitionMan (talk) 07:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Possible COI Spamming

116.71.250.162 (talk · contribs) has been adding links to inthenewspapers.net into multiple articles. On a quick glance, it does have links to a group of newspaper articles on the subject at hand, but it doesn't seem to be a very wide range of reports (for example, "Benazir Bhutto" only brings up 7 links). Bringing this here for more eyes and because admins can roll back all contributions by this IP a lot more effectively than me. Thanks. Risker (talk) 10:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Acetone peroxide

Could you please delete/truncate the History. I'm not concerned about terrorist blowing other people up but about teens blowing themselves up. Thanks, --193.254.155.48 (talk) 12:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a reason for such drastic action. HappyCamper removed it (as far as I can see) because it wasn't encyclopedic: Wikipedia is not Wikibooks, so it's more encyclopedic to detail professional method of producing it. Removing history entries is potentially problematic (due to GFDL issues) and to be used only in situations requiring drastic action (e.g. someone slandered a living person). If people really wanted it is easier to google other sources than dig it up in the history. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 13:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, But i take the liberty of deleting the exact date leading to the page history from the discussion page. --193.254.155.48 (talk) 13:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted this because it's somewhat pointless if the article's complete page history is visible to all, which it is. Anyone seriously wanting this information will find it, so refactoring other's comments on a talk page is unnecessary, and actually deprecated. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 13:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

why are my articles blocked and or changed and deleted??

Resolved

 – advice left

I am not trying to do wrong, I am trying to add information about myself which is true and I fell worthwhile Please help This is a message I got after making a few changes..

The addition you made to Portland State University is reverted because it needs a Wikipedia article already written about him. The article should follow biography guidelines, assert notability, and source his association with PSU. Thanks. —EncMstr 07:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, since you might share his name, you should read conflict of interest, and neutral point of view. —EncMstr 07:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC) Please stop adding yourself to articles as you have here, here, here, here, and at Portland State University. If you are notable (doubtful going by the very few hits on a Google search for "Dennis M. Knable") start an article (though do read WP:AUTO first) that meets WP:BIO, then link. Otherwise your repeated actions come across as vandalism. Aboutmovies (talk) 10:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dmknable"

Explained on User's talk page. This is not an admin issue. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 13:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I've given this user a uw-v3 warning for repeatedly adding himself to articles. Being a Royal Knight of Hutt River Principality seems like a stretch to claim notability. Corvus cornix_talk 17:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Rodhullandemu and I had a discussion and we decided to remove my warning, since the user hadn't edited since the previous warning. Corvus cornix_talk 20:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Threats of violence

The WP:TOV discussion might do with some comments, if anyone is inclined. To better form consensus. NonvocalScream (talk) 17:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Cut + paste move repair needed

Resolved

 – mattbr 19:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This edit appears to be a cut + paste move. Can an administrator repair the article histories? Thanks, скоморохъ 19:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted the edit so that the edit history remains at the original page. Please discuss on the talk page and utilise Wikipedia:Requested moves if needed. Thanks, mattbr 19:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Orangemike (talk · contribs) is making inappropriate use of the hardblock

Resolved

 – AGK § 21:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are several examples of Orangemike (talk · contribs) hardblocking accounts simply for having promotional usernames just today: [8] [9] [10] [11]. This is not appropriate, as the hardblock is only to be used in the case of usernames that show a blatant disregard for the username policy. Accounts with names that are promotional are in most cases created simply misguidedly, in which case a soft block is appropriate, but not a hardblock, as this prevents legitimate editors from editing or creating accounts with appropriate names.--Urban Rose 20:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

You wouldn't happen to have any examples of you trying to reconcile this with Orangemike first would you? John Reaves 20:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

...or informing him of this thread? —Wknight94 (talk) 20:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have informed Orangemike about this thread and agree it should have been discussed with him before raising it at any noticeboard. Davewild (talk) 20:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I tried to make an alternate template for use at UAA which would provide "hardblock" and "softblock" links with the boxes filled in, but it caused trouble for the bot. The default parameters for the block link are for a hardblock so this could have been simple user error. (nevermind, block reason was filled in) —Random832 20:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just informed him of this thread and apologized for bringing it up here before addressing him personally.--Urban Rose 21:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Somebody did notify me, thanks; no problem, Rose, we're all trying to do the right thing here. I thought that hardblocks were the appropriate treatment for spammers? If I am mistaken, obviously I will stop doing it posthaste; but I believed I was doing the correct thing in protecting the project from the marketing mavens who are constantly flooding us with their spam. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I was rather surprised that this was brought up at the noticeboard, without getting in touch with Mike first. Anyway, I digress: it's probably best, Orange Mike, if we bump down the username blocks to soft in the future? It's not a huge deal—if any editor does get fouled by the off-kilter block settings, I'm sure they can email the folks at Unblock-en-l for assistance. Having said that, it is bound to put some people off creating a new account (too much trouble, etc.), so just watch this in future, if possible. Moving onwards, I'm tagging this as resolved: not a big deal, Mike's taken note, no need for any further action. Best regards, AGK § 21:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Well, a company name alone isn't the same as the user being a spammer. —Random832 21:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. If an accounts edits amount too nothing but spam it should be hardblocked, but at least one of the accounts that he blocked today has good contribs. Personally, I think that if an account has no spammy contribs and just a promotional username we should assume good faith and soft block it.--Urban Rose 21:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not, I thought, been hardblocking folks who looked like noobs, as opposed to promotional/role accounts. The only one of the examples Rose listed that's even marginal is the John Wooden fan, and his edits were all related to Wooden and Wooden's "Pyramid of Success" stuff. Still, when in doubt I'll soft block. Glad the whole thing came out calmly. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Anybody home at WP:AIV?

Resolved

 – Complaint acknowledged. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it. Isn't there anybody watching WP:AIV on a constant basis? For example: Today I issue IP 85.60.53.190 a final warning at 21:52 (my time). He ignores it, vandalizes some more, and at 21:56 I report him at a virtually empty WP:AIV. It takes another 10 minutes (while the IP does three more disruptive edits) before he's finally blocked. Earlier this week the same thing happend when I reported another IP vandal (67.36.182.26, I think.) Took also over 10 minutes after the WP:AIV report, while the vandalizing just went on in the mean time.

Similar thing happened with Timtime77 today, which is clearly a vandalism only account. He vandalized (once) after the last warning and my report at WP:AIV, but nothing happened at all. I feel pretty stupid when I issue last warnings that don't appear to mean much.

Something else I don't get: user Eric D Knapp. I report him to WP:UAA/BOT because he edits an article to include an external link to Eric D Knapp's book (that you can get on Eric D Knapp's website). When I recently reported the TheOperaCritc, Xunantunich, and MedicineHorseProgram for similar edits and usernames, they got blocked indefinitely. But Eric D Knapp gets a friendly story about possible COI problems instead.

In short: Why does it sometimes takes so long before an ignored final warning results in a block? And what's the difference between Eric D Knapp and, say, Xunantunich? Thanks. Rien (talk\stalk)  23:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

For one, we are all volunteers here. If you want 24/7 support with 2 minute reaction time, I can get you a quote ;-). As for the user names, User:Eric_D_Knapp seems to be Eric D. Knapp, a real person editing under his real name. The other accounts have purely promotional names, and were blocked for a violation of WP:U. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

(ironic edit conflict) Sometimes it takes a while because we're only human. I can't be monitoring AIV or anywhere else all day long, and neither can anyone else. There's going to be small gaps, especially at times when most of the US is sleeping. Useight (talk) 23:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Just FYI, the US is 8 to 10 hours behind me. 23:00 my time is (approx) 14:00 US time. Surely you guys are awake by then ;-) Rien (talk\stalk)  23:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Here in North America, we do have jobs that we work at ;) Franamax (talk) 23:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

But right now you're behind your computer, answering me. Got fired? ;-) Rien (talk\stalk)  00:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm self-employed. I can't get fired. On the other hand, my boss is a big jerk. :) Franamax (talk) 02:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary has a FINE definition of volunteer. Perhaps you should read it before complaining so vehemently about the slow reaction time during some random 10-minute window.... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not "complaining vehemently", I'm asking a question. Thank you. Furthermore I know we're all volunteers. Do you think I get paid? I wondered if (and more or less assumed that) administrators would have some sort of "WP:AIV roster" (for lack of a better word), but that's obviously not the case. Fine, then I know. Spare me the sarcasm, there's no need for that. Rien (talk\stalk)  00:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Rien, I sympathize with you in that when I post to an official page, time stretches out eternally while I wait for my top priority to be dealt with. But Wiki has a lot of priorities and really, 10 minutes is a pretty short time in the grand scheme of things. All the damage can be reverted, you did your part with the final warning and the vandals did eventually realize that there is a big axe. Thanks for holding the ring, defending the wiki while you waited for an admin to step in. As a suggestion for the future, does anyone have information on the latest development of the wiki-catheter? I assume it's use will be restricted to admins. :) Franamax (talk) 02:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

HumanRightsDefender (talk · contribs)

Creating multiple new stubs about torture, appears to be a crusader for the truth. Anyone want to deal with this? WLU (talk) 23:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Speedy Redirect all articles to Torture and warn the user about notability. Twelve words! Fléêťflämẽ U-T-C 23:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Done. Apparently taking umbrage to wikifying. WLU (talk) 23:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh really? I come to Wikipedia to improve an article on torture to reveal modern aspects of torture currently in use. Is this a subject that some people do not want to deal with or what? HumanRightsDefender (talk) 23:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Attempting to redirect scrutiny away from your own misapplication of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines by claiming bad faith on others who are only applying those guidelines as they are best understood is disingenuous. No one has said that the information is verboten and should never be added, however Wikipedia has clear standards of verifiability and neutrality that you appear to be unwilling to care about... Please address those concerns before assuming a grand conspiracy... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

HRD, if you really feel that these forms of torture are notable and need to be covered on Wikipedia, please consider adding them here, rather than creating stubs for each one. Even better would be discussing them on that list's talk page to see if consensus would agree that they are notable. Fléêťflämẽ U-T-C 00:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed guideline Wikipedia:Notability (criminal acts)

Following a number of heated debates at AfD regarding biographies of the victims of crime, this guideline has been prepared by myself and several other editors, and is ready for wider consideration. You can view the policy at WP:N/CA and comments would be appreciated. Best wishes Fritzpoll (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

timestamp to keep from archiving a bit longer. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 15:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:DYK in need of updating

The update's five hours overdue, in need of an administrator to do it. I don't have the time to do it myself else I would. Wizardman 01:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Taken care of. It shouldn't be getting this bad, maybe we need some more frequenters of it. Wizardman 01:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

What about adding the status update box from Template:Did you know/Next update to the top of one of this page of AN/I? Since only admins can update the page it is obviously an "admin issue" and considering the traffic of both of these pages, it would go a long way towards keeping the updates happening in a timely fashion. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Newb admin with a quick question

Resolved

Hey, User:Rgoodermote completed a RfA and wrote his acceptance statement, so I transcluded it and users started !voting. Now it appears he was not planing on actually having an RfA for another week and was just using it to work on answering the questions. I told him a better place for that was his userspace and that he should probably withdraw. He has sense asked for it to be deleted, but I am not sure if I should as there is some content, and users have !voted. Not sure if there is some un-written rule or a policy that would help me.... Thanks, Tiptoety ^talk 02:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused here. Looking at the withdrawn RfA, I see the following:

• About 3 answered questions, with 10 more that are unanswered, with open spaces waiting to be filled.
• 3 opposes, the first of which is yours.

I must be missing something, because it looks like you transcluded a clearly incomplete RfA and then !voted against the candidate. Like I said, I must be missing something, because there's no way that's what happened, right? Antelan ^talk 07:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Canditates for speedy deletion backlog

Could an administrator get on this. Thanks. Vivio Testarossa^{Talk Who} 02:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, where are the administrator's "hiding"? Vivio Testarossa^{Talk Who} 02:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Here! (I will take a look and see what I can do). Tiptoety ^talk 02:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Backlog? Attack! bibliomaniac15 Midway upon life's journey... 03:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

My gosh, I went into battle, came out with many cuts and bruises, and then it appears there are even more articles then there where when I started.... Tiptoety ^talk 03:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Phew! Got whipped into battle fury there. Well, anyway, the backlog's been reduced now, and I'm exhausted. bibliomaniac15 Midway upon life's journey... 05:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

YouTube spamming?

Could someone who isn't cranky like I am tonight take a look at the edits by

"Chlipala User:Chlipala" is not registered on this wiki. Please check CentralAuth to see if it is registered on other wikis.

No changes were found matching these criteria.

, please? He's been adding numerous links to YouTube submissions he's created to a range of musicians and similar articles. I think it's starting to lean into spamming, but I may be wrong. I'd appreciate other thoughts, please... Tony Fox (arf!) 04:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I formatted the link for the editor, but have got a zero contribition list. Is this the correct editor? LHvU (talk) 08:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The link was wrong. It should have said Special:Contributions/Chlipala. – sgeureka ^t•c 09:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

His links seem to all be to copyright violations, so spamming or not, it's not allowed. Deadeyearrow has already left a note on his talk page to that effect. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

And now he's kvetching on his talk page and is going right back to it. It looks more like spam to his specific videos to me, I'll try again. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted them, and left a couple of warnings, amongst them Template:Uw-spam4im (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Whatever reasons, this is spamming, conflict of interest, and violations of WP:NOT. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Huge backlog at Wikipedia:Copyright problems

I can't believe this has gone unnoticed for so long, but we have a five week backlog at WP:CP. I've been working on them myself for the last several days and I just knew someone was going to show up eventually to help, but no one has.

I've been in a solitary mood for a few weeks, and I got January 15 through February 3 done alone and I've cut the backlog from 45 days down to 35, but I know when I'm licked. I need help. It's not as popular as AFD, but it gets bogged down and this is the result. We were very close to a two month backlog, and it kind of flies in the face of all our words on free content and copyright infringement.

Another problem we've got there: the advice to admins page, with the instructions on dealing with the logs, is terribly outdated. It hasn't even been edited since May 2007, well before WP:CSD#G12 was changed to allow speedy deletions of blatant copyright infringement with no assertion of permission. The steps are so confusing and contradictory as to be almost useless, and I think that's why new (and old) admins stay away from copyright problems like the plague. I'm working on changes to the advice page, and of course everyone's welcome. I haven't yet put my changes in, but I need to stop now to, like, sleep.

If you are familiar with the copyright rules and process and can help, please take one of the log days, i.e. Wikipedia:Copyright_problems/2008 February 5, work through the articles and images, then simply remove it from WP:CP (it's not necessary to keep the old log pages like we do at WP:ADD. If 35 admins take one day each, we'll have this done in a jiffy. Thanks. - KrakatoaKatie 06:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added speedy notices to the ones on the 4th and 5th that are obvious copyvios and not notable in of themselves or low quality. --ÐeadΣyeДrrow (Talk | Contribs) 09:21, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been tied up with some things, but I intend to get back at these today or tomorrow.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 17:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Restoring deleted images..?

Resolved

 – working with user on image status MBisanz ^talk 08:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Could an admin please restore this image for me:

Image:Giant Panda Auckland Zoo.jpg and if possible restore it to its pride in place in the Auckland Zoo page...

It was deleted fast, as in one day it was there and next... Poof..! I hadn't logged on for a day or two and would have disputed its deletion... The reason I was given for its deletion was that it was decorative (in the page history or on my user talk page)... It was afixed in the history section in the article, in fact in the paragraph detailing how important the Panda's display was in the zoo's history and the image was of the Panda's on display...

I apologise if this page is for admins to post to each other (if I'm not supposed to post these requests here please could a kind soul point me in the right direction) or could an admin have a look at the image, non-free rationale etc and tell me why I'm a moron...

This new editor is getting quite disheartened by trying to follow the rules and having his articles vandalised or hard uploaded images deleted with some "higher" users disregard of discussion processes and 'ahem' notifications...

Kind regards and keep up the great work that the cheating undergraduate students don't even know goes into running this site that makes their assignments so easy... ZoofanNZ (talk) 08:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've responded on your talk page. I think we can figure this one out. If you need help in the future, WP:ICHD and WP:MCQ are more specialized, but any user may post to this page. MBisanz ^talk 08:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your pains... I have responded in kind on your talk page...ZoofanNZ (talk) 08:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Please block 76.17.200.196 immediately

Resolved

 – User blocked by 52 Pickup --The Helpful One ^(Review) 17:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Please 76.17.200.196 immediately. He's vandalizing a page a minute now. Thanks. Americasroof (talk) 15:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Blocked. In future, please go to WP:AIV to report vandals. - 52 Pickup (deal) 15:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. This was the first time I made a report. I will go there in the future. Americasroof (talk) 15:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus incident: policy corrections needed either way

I am seeking comment on an incident that is nothing but an extraordinary outcome from the inconsistent application of policies and administrative philosophy.

• At 18:34 GMT, March 12, User:Piotrus was reported for violation of WP:3RR at WP:AN3.[12]
• User:TigerShark blocked User:Piotrus at 23:05 GMT, March 12, 2008 (see block log) and reported the block at WP:AN3 at 23:07 GMT.[13]
• At 04:20 GMT, March 13, having served little more than 5 of the 24 hours, User:Piotrus' friend User:Zscout370 unblocked User:Piotrus with the following rationale: "I looked at the diffs, both parties are guilty and he was also dealing with IP edits and possible vandalism. Just work it out". No unblocking message with the unblocking rationale was posted and there were no reference to a rationale being an outcome of a discussion that took place elsewhere (we still old-fashionedly assume that whatever takes place at IRC, the wiki-actions need to be justified onwiki, save exceptional (OTRS, RFCU) cases.

After the unblock, the user who filed an original complaint, politely contacted the unblocking admin for clarification. From the discussions that took place later, Request of clarification, IRC unblock and 3RR comments (I am giving permanent links above and below, but please check the current versions for later updates), we can figure out the following course of events:

• Piotrus, himself an administrator, engaged in rabid edit-warring against two different editors and an IP account. He also abused his rollback privilege to revert disputed content edits and typo corrections (permalink)
• After a 3RR report ( permalink, please check for discussion updates) User:Piotrus was blocked for 24 hours by Tigershark
• User:Piotrus courted for an unblocking on the #admins IRC. ("asked in a general channel to all admins, then those willing to take on the case were sent PM's".[14]) and User:Zscout370 agreed to review it. He claimed that [by IRCPM] he strongly warned and cautioned User:Piotrus to just sit down and start discussing.[15]
• Sometime later, according to User:TigerShark, User:Piotrus contacted User:TigerShark on the IRC and said[16] "that he was too experienced for the 3RR rules to apply to him and that he had managed to convince an admin to unblock him at IRC" and then "lectured" User:TigerShark "on the risk of being de-admined", and that User:TigerShark "was lucky he [Piotrus] had woken up in good mood".
• Piotrus, then makes an outrageous allegation at RFCU that two of his long time content opponents resorted to sockpuppetry after their many years of WP contributions

Besides the specific instance of edit warring and rollback abuse, largely obsolete since stopped and already processed at 3RR, we still have issues that require clarification or the policies correction (disregarding, since this is an ethics issue on which opinions vary, Piotrus' usual resorting to behind the scenes action)

1. problematic unblocking, even if good faithed. It may well be regarded as OK for an admin to undo another admin's action (unblock), and often the agreement of the blocking admin is not sought (often for a reason), but this is usually done only after some discussion has taken place, especially if the admin is unblocking a wiki-friend. The latter condition rather excludes the possibility for a unilateral unblock taken without onwiki discussion (except for undoing an obvious abuse) which could potentially cause a lot of bad faith. Similarly a history of animosity is supposed to exclude unilateral blocking, save blatant editing abuse. Perhaps our policies are not clear enough and require elaboration.
2. lack of posted rationale Even in cases where unilateral unblock is appropriate, the complete rationale is needed. The unblock rationale was flatly lacking here. Neither the explanation for the unblock, nor the warning, nor the reference took place on wiki. Remember, you're not supposed to "refer" to the off-wiki discussion, exceptional cases aside, and if such discussion took place the explanation of the action should be fully given onwiki. Several policies mention the need of on-wiki rationale for wiki actions. Should we make it more conspicuous?
3. spurious unblock summary that says "both parties are guilty and he was also dealing with IP edits and possible vandalism." This was clearly a content dispute and there were no instances of anything even in the same universe as vandalism. This can be verified by anyone who cares to check the diffs The only thing to suggest vandalism was User:Piotrus's use of rollback during his reverts (you will notice that among the content changes Piotrus rolled back were English and typo corrections, e.g. the rollback restored electional for electoral, vicinage for vicinity and Enlightment for Enlightenment.) As for "both parties" ... as User"TigerShark commented ... how is this exonerating? Anyway, WP:BLOCK does not say anything about the unblocking summaries. Perhaps because many think that common sense is enough. Is it?
4. Further, Piotrus' attacking TigerShark, boasting being unblocked, threatening and claiming one's being above policies . This is clearly a problem. Credit must be given to User:TigerShark for keeping his cool about this.
5. Frivolously insisting on checkusering. This is more serious than AGF. This is also a privacy issue. While it is important that everyone is able to request checkuser without repercussions, should there be sanctions for clearly frivolous requests? We cannot rely on checkusers' simply rejecting them. This is an abuse of their time and, largely because they lack time already, they may not be able to investigate the validity of every request to see its merit. Again, this is just common sense and perhaps follows under general disruption but it happens. Someone requested a checkuser on me for being a sock of someone who I took to arbcom. So, it happens now and then and seems like common sense is not enough.

Please see (permalinks may need updating) Zscout's talk [17] [18] and 3RR thread for the fuller context.

If all or some of the events listed are acceptable, the community should authorize them and change those policy wordings which now either suggest to the contrary or are silent (which is not good enough in view of above). If it is not acceptable, the community has to do something and cover some of these things, such as use of IRC, RFCU, BLOCKing and unblocking in the policy. Thank you for your time. --Irpen 20:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

While a checkuser was asked, it wasn't asked in a frivolous manner. I have seen at least 5 checkusers asked for a day, and that is only when I am on. Pretty much, when I looked at the unblock policy, they listed email and other admin review to check as acceptable means. So discussion doesn't have to occur on wiki to say yay or nay for blocks and unblocks. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment Thanks for this Irpen. I did notice these events, and made a brief comment (as you probably saw) on WP:AN3RR. You are certainly correct that these procedures need clarified, esp. for guys like me who are new admins. I think many would find the way this was conducted quite outrageous, esp. those concerned with the potentially subversive role of the IRC not to mention TigerShark who, as far as the evidence is concerned, was overruled without being consulted for no apparently good reason. I do agree the unblock rationale was weak to say the least.

Certainly you're correct that no vandalism was involved, and Piotrus was besides the only one to violate 3RR. Sure other users there were reverting, but the 3-revert rule is there for a reason ... it is an absolute maximum. If 3RR is only to be apllied when only one user is reverting, you might as well get rid of it. In Reality-land (as opposed to Shouldbe-land) content disputes happen, and 3RR is good way for reducing its inevitable impact. I really think more admins ought to read Wikipedia:Three_revert_rule_enforcement, and linked pages thereof, to get an idea of how and why this rule came into existence.

So I share your concern about the procedure, esp. if Zscout and Piotrus are known friends (which I couldn't say).

As for Piotrus' use of rollback, I'm sure this must have been a one-off mistake. Mis-hit the button? The alleged intimitation of TigerShark by Piotrus would be concerning, but I can't believe for a moment that Piotrus would do this. Maybe miscommunication?

But to return to the main point, indeed, clarification of policy concerning this kind of thing is indeed needed. I strongly hope this will be forthcoming. I'd also like either 1) Zscout comment on his interpretation of Wikipedia:Unblock#Unblocking and explanation of how he used it in this situation or 2) the latter be changed to sanction these events. We certainly can't have a situtation where such a strongly worded policy is routinely ignored by admins, esp. in order to unblock their friends via IRC. We have to remember that wikipedia operates on trust and mutual respect between users, the fair application of policy, particularly in regard to administrator actions. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I stand by what I have said about anonymous editor (whom I reverted, and the reverts were counted towards 3RR) being disruptive and trolling on several related articles. I have raised this on admin IRC, several admins commented, the consensus apparently was to unblock me and block the anonymous editor.

I am disappointed by TigerShark's behavior; he was rather incivil in his email replies to me, and apparently both misinterpreted my emails and quoted parts of them out of context. That said, I consider his behavior (and judgment) 'water under the bridge' - I don't know TigerShark well enough and everybody is allowed to err now and often. There is however another editor whose behavior is more problematic:

User:Irpen has been found in the recent arbcom to have often been in conflict with me; and to have acted uncivil on numerous occasions (do note that the arbcom has not found anything wrong with my behavior). The ArbCom has even discussed a restriction on Irpen preventing him from interacting with me. This incident represents an unfortunately common pattern (discussed in the linked arbcom): Irpen following my edits, commenting on discussions unrelated to him (but related to me) and fanning the flames in discussions involving me. I find Irpen's report here and criticism of me to be highly unjustified, and if anything merits attention, it's not how I was reverting disruptive edits of an anon and a likely sock, but his stalking of my person.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Sysops do not have any special privileges regarding unblocks over any other editor. If you want to contest a block then I suggest the use of the {{unblock|''your reason here''}} option, rather than canvassing #admins for an unblock. I would comment that I believe using #admins an abuse of process, in that there is not the transparency apparent in using the unblock template - and that those admins on IRC unwilling to unblock are not represented. If I found that an admin I had blocked, in good faith, had got themselves unblocked by using such a method I would immediately re-instate the block and review the actions of the unblocking sysop, too.

I realise that people can make mistakes, but that should not be compounded by acting outside of process - if there were good reasons to contest the block it should have been made at the time using the unblock facility. You condescending attitude toward a fellow admin, Tigershark, is noted.

Whatever your feelings toward Irpen, this is a proper bringing of a concern to the Admins Noticeboard. Commenting on the history between you and this (other) admin does not begin to address your apparent disdain for practice and procedure in the manner by which you went off site to have yourself unblocked. Nothing you have said justifies your actions here.

I shall notify Zscout370 of this discussion, and invite their views on this matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I already posted above, so I am aware of this. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So you have. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

And, as I pointed out on my talk page, I been asked to clarify a few hours after the unblock but didn't get to it until I woke up the next morning. A lot of what you want me to say here I have already said to MK and Irpen on my talk page. Yes, off-wiki discussion happens a lot about block making or block reducing. I remember being at #wikipedia and kicking users out for asking for unblocks. Later on, I was asked not to do that anymore, so it became a place to unofficially (at least on wiki) to ask for unblocks. It's like trying to email a user, except you get more faster responses. I personally think with these articles on Eastern Europe (which I also edit), there is a lot of gaming by IP addresses and arbcom cases abound. I personally felt that it was strange for an IP address to make one or two changes, then a new account comes in and takes over. I have seen this before and other admins choose not to block in this manner. As for not talking to TigerShark, there has been a lot of decisions involving me that pretty much occurring without my knowledge. It is SOP for admins not to speak to each other with regards to blocks, or anything else for that manner, unless it is mandated by ArbCom decision (such as with BLP's). I have said all I wish to say for right now here, but I can address specific concerns at my talk page where I can focus on yall one by one. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I have just reviewed Wikipedia:Appealing a block. I note the allowed use of the unblock option on the talkpage, contacting the blocking admin by email, and referring the block to ArbCom. While it is noted that Piotrus did contact Tigershark on IRC, it appears that it was after the block was lifted and the discussion reported did not seem to be one of seeking clarification. If there has been the practice of not contacting the blocking admin then I missed that memo, and the policy page seems similarly uninformed. I note that #admins is an appropriate venue to discuss blocks one wishes to place or have placed, but not as a place to have ones own overturned. This is not looking great from where I am standing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Zscout, I can only speak for myself here, but I don't find your explanation acceptable atm. Could you please comment on Wikipedia:Unblock#Unblocking. This is policy, and it contradicts your last assertions. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I have said all I want to say on the unblock itself and the unblocking policy. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 22:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Blocking admins for technical infringements is not usually a very productive way of handling a dispute, even someone with opinions as strong as Piotrus' can usually be stopped from making an ass of themselves by some less extreme means, such as emailing them and reminding them not to make themselves look silly. So I don't have a problem with Zscout's unblock, honestly it was no big deal and was evidently done in good faith. Piotrus' retaliatory accusations and IRC comments, though, are a bit more of an issue. Guy (Help!) 22:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Admins are not exempt from 3RR. Reverting blocks issued to admins because they are admins (which isn't what anyone claims has happened) for 3RR violations undermines the preventative value of the 3RR and of course creates an impression of unfairness. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Nobody is. But any long-standing contributor who steps over the 3RR line and then indicates that they won't do it again, should be unblocked. Blocks are preventive, not punitive. Thise of us with more than a few months' editing (and discounting the seasoned edit warriors) will normally calm down and realise we've been daft; serving out a block for a technical offence is not really required in such cases unless we genuinely think that letting the block stand will serve to prevent further disruption. Guy (Help!) 00:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

• I am less concerned with Zscout370's unblock - although a comprehensive unblock rationale would have been nice - than the way that the unblock was requested. If it was an obviously poor block, and I have no opinion on that although I AGF of Tigershark reasons, then it could be clearly stated in the unblock request on the blockees talkpage. I get tired of telling people that sysops have no more editing rights than other users, only for a sysop go and do something that gives admin bashers more ammunition. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Looking at it myself my problem with the unblock is the assertion that it is SOP for admins not to talk with each other about blocks. I was asked about this on my RFA last year and I am sure if I had not said that I would discuss unblocking with the blocking admin as per policy the RFA would have failed very easily. Davewild (talk) 22:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Admins must be help to a higher standard level than editors for the simple reason that admins have been entrusted by the community. If an admin edit wars and violates 3RR then they must serve the entire length of the block. Bstone (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Unblocking, "[a]dministrators should not unblock users blocked in good faith by other administrators without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator and discuss the matter with them. It may not necessarily be obvious what the problem necessitating blocking was, and it is a matter of courtesy and common sense to consult the blocking administrator. If the blocking administrator is not available, or if the administrators cannot come to an agreement, then a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard is recommended." Neither of these appears to have taken place here. Secondly, Piotrus was blocked as an editor. Regardless of whether the block was right or wrong, his adminship is irrelevant, because he wasn't blocked as an admin. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• So s/admin/longstanding editor/ and the point stands. Did anyone try to remind Piotrus before he hit the third revert, that it was time to take a deep breath? Guy (Help!) 00:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Header

Hey folks, something freaky just happened. When I roll over my links on top, they move to the left, and will not go back until I go to a new page. Whazzzup? Bearian (talk) 20:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Did you make any recent changes to your monobook.js? Or maybe one of the scripts in there has broken--I've had that happen before, and it can be a mess. Justin Eiler (talk) 22:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Abusive user, complex issue

• Whenwith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 71.107.171.66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Lady of Pain (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Reversion of valid edits, removing tags requesting citations, and reverting, all with some extremely abusive edit summaries. Justin Eiler (talk) 22:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Need help on restoring Aging

While doing backlog clearing at CAT:CSD, I performed a housekeeping move from Aging (life cycle) to Aging. It appears that Jmlk17 and I had done it simultaneously, creating an endless chain of redirects. I got a notice on my user talk page notifying me, but my attempts to restore the history are futile. I really need help, please, restoring. bibliomaniac15 Midway upon life's journey... 22:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 23:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• I could use some help restoring aging as well. Start with the grey hair, yes? Guy (Help!) 23:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Block Request For Thegingerone

Many of the content this user keeps using is typed as if the Rudolph Valentino page is a fan site. Also, the user seems to be one-sided and thinks while The Dark Lover is a reliable resource, Valentino: The Superstar is not. I am also sick of the vandalism this user has presented on different Wikipedia pages, like People To People. I want justice, and this user deserves to be blocked. Kevin j (talk) 23:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

All I see so far is a content dispute, and content disputes, by definition, have two parties. Neither is necessarily more at fault when discussion is foregone for an edit war. —C.Fred (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Possible trolling

I honestly don't know if the two anonymous users 87.221.4.107 and 87.221.5.81 are trolling or if they genuinelly are extreme nationalists. Whatever the case, their behaviour is becoming a nuisance on articles related to Greece and the Republic of Macedonia. We have the over-the-top demands that everybody who doesn't share their view should leave Wikipedia [19], the thinly masked threats that Greeks should use violence [20], racist attacks againt Macedonians [21], [22], [23] (Skopjians is a Greek insult directed at Macedonians). The problem isn't with these two IPs in particular, the problem is that every day of every week, we have anonymous Greek IPs spewing out racist attacks directed at Macedonians. The examples here are far from the worst, just the most recent. JdeJ (talk) 00:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

• I have blocked the first IP for 24 hours as it is obviously only being used for trolling and abuse. The other IP only has a couple of edits (though one of them is longer than all the other IPs edits put together) but I will keep an eye on it. Black Kite 00:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

New ArbCom Clerk appointments

The Arbitration Committee is pleased to announce that effective immediately, AGK (Anthony), Daniel, and Rlevse have been appointed as additional Arbitration Committee Clerks. The committee appreciates their assistance as well as the work of the current Clerks and of Clerk helpers/trainees Coren and Jayvdb. For the committee, Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)