Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br>Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> |
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br>Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> |
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====Statement by Ihardlythinkso==== |
====Statement by Ihardlythinkso==== |
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I removed misleading & erroneous text indicating Trump said he *did grope* [a woman/women], when he merely asserted on the tape that he could get away with doing so if he wanted to by virtue of his star status. (An enormous difference. The former is tantamount to putting in the BLP subject's mouth that he confessed to committing potential criminal act[s], something only imagined or contrived/fictionalized by presumably hateful political detractors. A little objectivity for what he said, please. As thoughtful, conscientious WP editor it was/is my duty to immediately remove.) Thank u. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|IHTS]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso#top|talk]]) 22:38, 31 October 2016 (UTC) |
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====Statement by (username)==== |
====Statement by (username)==== |
Revision as of 22:38, 31 October 2016
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Md iet
Topic ban modified by EdJohnston. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 29 October 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Md ietDue to above ban I indirectly helped others on the subject and got blocked indefinitely. I realized my fault later and pardoned(Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive278#Standard_offer_unblock_request_from_Md_iet, User talk:Md iet#Unblocked) as I understood the harm caused to Wikipedia unknowingly and pledged to rectify myself. Now request further to lift topic ban related with Dawoodi Bohra considering my attitude and actions shown after this unblock. I think by now I understand WP:Neutral point of view, WP:Reliable sources, and WP:Original research better.
Statement by EdJohnstonI would support relaxing the ban to allow User:Md iet to participate on *talk pages* regarding the Dawoodi Bohra, but not regarding articles. If you check Talk:India/Archive 39#Alternate name Bharat you'll see him advocating changing our India article to refer to the country, in the opening sentence, as 'India that is Bharat' rather than 'India'. His knowledge of English seems too limited for us to expect that he can create well-written prose especially in disputed articles like those that concern the Dawoodi Bohra. His statements in that thread also suggest a weak grasp of consensus, since the name of India has been extensively discussed in the talk archives. The topic on which Md iet has been (in the past) unable to edit neutrally is the 53rd Syedna succession controversy (Dawoodi Bohra). Md iet was editing to declare that one of the claimants had been victorious in the dispute, prior to mainstream media having agreed on that. EdJohnston (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by AdamfinmoIt is worth noting that Md iet, has edited in on the topic of Dawoodi Bohra at least twice recently, that I could see. diff, diff.--Adam in MO Talk 02:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC) I'm not an administrator, nor am I involved in any way with this editor or the topic space. I'm concerned that this editor has repeatedly edited in direct violation of their topic ban, multiple times, and very recently. The were explicitly instructed: "You will not edit any articles which relate to Dawoodi Bohra, even distantly." They acknowledged that they understood this and still made repeated edits to the Islam in India article. --Adam in MO Talk 21:53, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Md ietResult of the appeal by Md iet
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Anythingyouwant 2
Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs) is banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, until the 2016 US presidential election is complete and the losing candidate has conceded, or until December 1, whichever is earlier. Vanamonde (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Anythingyouwant
That's four reverts on an article under 1RR restriction.
I am filing this per User:Seraphimblade's comment in closing the above AE request [5] Any other issues should be brought up as separate issues rather than being rolled into this one.. While I agree with the closure of the above request, and that THOSE two edits were justified on BLP grounds, THESE FOUR reverts are not. This appears to be a case of Anythingyouwant running wild and interpreting favorable comments on the previous issue as a carte blanche to revert at will. In this particular case, the edits being reverted are NOT a BLP violation as they are strongly sourced AND there is consensus for the wording on talk [6] (note that because Anythingyouwant started to move other people's comments around some of the flow of the conversation got compromised) This comment Anythingyouwant clearly indicates that they are aware that "sexual assault" is a potentially valid and sourced way to describe what happened - forcible groping and kissing is "sexual assault" (and ATW agrees). So EVEN IF Anythingyouwant prefers a different description they cannot invoke BLP to make the change. The fact that they did so indicates they are acting in bad faith and making attempts at WP:GAMEing policy. It seems that Anythingyouwant is trying to use the fact that they were correct in ONE PARTICULAR instance as some kind of twisted mandate to exempt themselves from 1RR... or even 3RR. And seriously, starting another edit war, and making four reverts on a 1RR article WHILE there's an open AE request on you for the very thing is just... uh, bad form. Or it's a brazen flaunting of the rules. Tiptoe, Masem, you're trying to argue about content as a way to derail the discussion. But the problem is the 4 (or is it now 5?) reverts in 24hrs on a 1RR article done under a false pretext. You can discuss the issue on talk page if you want. The question here is simply did these edits violate 1RR. Which of course they did.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:12, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Just a quick comment on people who are saying something along the lines of "both sides should be sanctioned or neither". No. Yes, there are two sides, and there is disagreement. But disagreement by itself is not sanctionable. What is sanctionable is making 5 reverts on an article under 1RR. And ONLY ONE person has done that. Anythingyouwant. Come on! Shortly before he went on his edit warring spree Anything was agitating for other editors to be sanctioned for making a SINGLE EDIT! Not five, one. And it, unlike Anything's reverts, had consensus too. If that's not WP:BATTLEGROUND I don't know what is. Same goes for several of his supportive commentators.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:32, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning AnythingyouwantStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AnythingyouwantWill deal with this tomorrow, gotta get sleep.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:06, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Might I suggest tweaking the top-level header to distinguish it from the other identical header? I probably won't get to this until late tonight (it's now 1:46 PM where I am). In the mean time, please note that an almost identical complaint was brought up yesterday toward the end of the other Anythingyouwant section, and I wrote some responsive material there,[7] and that section was closed with this statement:
So, when I respond to the present issues tonight, I assume that the originally reported edits presented in this current section are what I need to justify or defend (not separate issues that may be subsequently raised here).Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
I won’t repeat what I already said about this accusation when it was first made in the previous section here at AE, but I will add to what I already said (as briefly as possible). It is amusing that Marek has the chutzpah to bring this action after trying to get the word "rape" into the lead.[9] As noted above, that attempt was rightly deemed a BLP violation here at AE, though Marek somehow escaped sanctions. Someone else clamoring for sanctions against me here is My very best wishes who likewise sought to violate WP:BLP by jamming "child rape" into the lead of this BLP.[10] He somehow escaped sanctions too. Isn't it amazing? But I still hold out some hope, and therefore request boomerangs against them both.
We recently had a decision at AE confirming that explicit discussion of "rape" and "child rape" is not currently suitable for this lead, per WP:BLP. My contention is that insinuating or suggesting rape fails the same test, for basically the same reasons. Vaguely saying that Trump is accused of "sexual assault" obviously suggests that he may be accused of rape or attempted rape. That’s why I have urged being specific, and have urged saying that he has been accused of forcible kissing and groping, in the lead. I do not rule out use of the term "sexual assault" in the lead, but it has to be used carefully (like I did here), in such a way as to not suggest or insinuate allegations of rape. Anyway, I stopped pressing this point via BLP edits before this AE section was even started, and will continue to let these POV-pushers have their way until a decision is made here at AE, because I do not relish the prospect of a further bogus topic ban. And that's all I have to say for now. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:04, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
@Admins, "While sexual assault is usually seen as rape, state statutes generally include any unwanted sexual contact...." Paludi, Michele. Campus Action Against Sexual Assault, p. 56 (ABC-CLIO, 2016). No one here has offered any evidence suggesting that "sexual assault" is not usually seen as rape. By putting "sexual assault" in this lead without elaboration, we would be defying the vast majority of reliable sources regarding the allegations against Trump (which do clarify the form of alleged sexual assault) and suggesting to readers that the allegations involve (or at least may involve) rape. This is a clear and obvious BLP violation, not to mention horrifyingly bad writing. If that's what you want, then please by all means give me a topic ban and proceed as you wish. My conscience is clear. As administrator Lankiveil says, my position is defensible, and I don't think you should be dishing out topic-bans for defensible positions, while letting all the indefensible insertions of the explicit word "rape" into the lead go completely unaddressed.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:10, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by MrXOf the four diffs listed by Marek, at least three are unambiguous reverts within a 24 hour period. Doing so under the shelter of the WP:BLP policy is blatant gaming. Regarding this edit, numerous reliable sources have characterized the allegations against Trump's as "sexual assault".[16][17][18][19][20] In this revert (5th; not in the above list) Anythingyouwant claiming that material must be restored to an article because of WP:BLP. WP:NOT3RR#EX7 does not afford any such 1RR exemption. In addition to edit warring and abusing the WP:BLP policy, Anythingyouwant continues to try to WP:GAME the system to gain an advantage in content disputes on Donald Trump-related articles:
Anythingyouwant also seems intent on polishing Donald Trump's reputation, in violation of WP:NPOV, by first formulating material that whitewashes plain facts, and then finding one or two outlier sources to support that formulation.
Apparently, Anythingyouwant has been emboldened by escaping sanctions in the previous two AE cases in which his behavior was scrutinized. At his point, I think a 6 month topic ban should be considered. I don't think a block for edit warring would have a lasting effect, nor would it address the totality of the concerns.- MrX 15:00, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TiptoethrutheminefieldThis case follows on almost immediately after a near identical case [23] that was also raised against Anythingyouwant. The initiators of each are attempting to misuse the American Politics 2 discretionary sanctions in order to usurp our common obligation to obey BLP requirements. As in the earlier case, the content deleted by Anythingyouwant violated BLP policies and required removal. He cannot be sanctioned under subject specific sanctions for doing this. MrX claims, above, that Anythingyouwant "escaped sanctions" in that earlier case, weasely insinuating a lucky escape by a guilty party. The reality was the exact opposite: the idea that Anythingyouwant had violated sanctions was conclusively dismissed and everyone agreed that the material he removed was violating BLP requirements. The nastiness and general slimyness seen in the Donald Trump article content is getting out of hand, and I think Volunteer Markek and his ever-present sidekick My very best wishes want that state of affairs to continue. The misrepresentation and distortion of sources is blatant - I have pointed out one example of it here: [24]. Does Fyddlestix, in his definitions of "sexual assault" given below, consider shaking hands with a fully clothed 15 year old counts as "sexual assault"? The article as it is currently worded does. Here is another example: obviously off-topic detail about Mike Tyson's 1992 rape conviction added and then editorialized into being linked to his 2016 endorsement of Trump, editorialising done for no other reason I am sure than to blatantly imply guilt by association - [25]. And this stuff is actually placed in a section of the article dealing with Trump's business interests! At best, the part dealing with Tyson's 2016 endorsement could be on Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 as part of a listing of celebrity endorsements. I also think this here [26] is a bad faith implied threat intended to be seen by all editors working on the article - article talk pages are about content discussions and are not for notices about cases raised against individual editors. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:09, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by FyddlestixJust commenting to note that the suggestion that "sexual assault" is a BLP violation (Anythingyouwant's stated reason for the removals linked above) is wholly inaccurate. The term does not imply an accusation of rape by any stretch of the imagination. It is variously defined by some of the most authoritative sources imaginable as:
In short, this is precisely what Trump has been accused of. There are also a very large number of reliable sources that document those accusations, and which specifically apply the term "sexual assault" to Trump's case. I listed some (one example from each major American news outlet) here, but there are dozens (very likely hundreds) or RS that apply the term to Trump. So please don't give the claim of a BLP exemption any credence here, it's demonstrably false. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:56, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICOAnythingyouwant is evading her TBAN from abortion-related articles through a campaign of disruptive edits to articles on the US election, where the future of the Supreme Court and abortion-related law is at stake. She bludgeons discussion threads with a broad spectrum of artful, passive-aggressive deflections, equivocations, and denials to hog-tie neutral policy-based editing. I doubt she is as incompetent as her words would suggest, so I interpret this behavior to be willful (or at least uncontrollable) disruption. She's been amply warned on her talk page and on the article talk pages, but she knows most editors will not take the time and effort to file complaints such as this one. In my opinion, most editors react not by pursuing Enforcement but simply by walking away from the articles. I can't believe that Arbcom Enforcement Admin's wish to validate the disruptive editing strategy of this consummate Wikilawyer and allow her to hound ever more editors off of these abortion-related election articles. The current revert-warring has nothing in common with the one in the previous complaint, where the use of the word "rape" was not well-supported by RS and was undue and was arguably a BLP violation. SPECIFICO talk 17:05, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Anythingyouwant recently ignored warnings from several editors. Here is mine, on her talk page: [27] SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC) @Masem: BLP above all, but it's been amply demonstrated that BLP does not justify Anythingyouwant's reverts. Not even plausibly. Public figure, hundreds of RS, accurately represented. SPECIFICO talk 21:24, 20 October 2016 (UTC) You're going on at length about perceived systemic bias on WP and other general concerns, but my point is that this is a complaint about specific behavior of one editor under clearly defined circumstances and the violation is verifiable and proven. Larger issues belong elsewhere. SPECIFICO talk 21:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Admins, you have a tough job. But you're here voluntarily and the community is counting on you. Even if it's facetious, the suggestion of rounding up active editors (I'm not one of them) and TBANning the whole carload is appalling. This is a simple case of a Anything, a deft and experienced wikilawyer, gaming the system to violate her Abortion Topic Ban -- a ban she openly renounces as illegitimate at every opportunity. Because she's so careful not to be overtly hostile or uncivil, she will not come up for any really draconian penalties, no matter how much of other editors' time she wastes. If the glove don't fit, you must acquit, but in this case it's more like "if the shoe fits, wear it." She needs to have her Abortion-related TBAN extended to American Politics, where her disruptive editing and obstruction is an obvious evasion of her existing TBAN. T-t-t-that's all folks! SPECIFICO talk 17:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by MasemI'd echo the statement of Tiptoethrutheminefield above - while it may be true that these are accusations put against him, they have no business to be highlighted to that great a detail in the lede. I've been finding more and more that some editors seem to want to vilify any BLP that is right-leaning to the greatest extent they can by reliable sources (which are broadly left-leaning, making it easy to find material to pin on the BLP) in the lede, where instead WP:BLP advices dispassionate and impartial writing. Accusations of crimes may have a place in the lede, but if they are only accusations, they should not be given undue focus (though can be explained out in the body as allowed for by BLP). --MASEM (t) 16:43, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
To several more recent comments, while one could argue this is a content situation since we are talking about material that is reliably sourced and that I do agree belong somewhere on WP (certainly in the article(s) about the specific presidential campaigns since the accusations are influencing the election to a degree), fundamentally these accusations (neither proven nor have led to any charges) are rumors and BLP is very specific about giving undue weight to rumormongering on BLP pages (Other policy like NOT#NEWS and RECENTISM also comes to mind). They shouldn't be mentioned in the lede at all at this point, but there's a certain callousness by several editors here that give the impression "oh, but reliable sources reign over BLP", which should not be happening here, otherwise we as Wikipedia are engaging in the external problem. We need to be better than the sources when it comes to impartiality and tone. To that point, the edits tagged above by Anythingyouwant are just as problematic as the edits undoing those, since they are retaining the core problematic BLP, but they are at least de-sensationalizing the newer additions. The fact that multiple editors appeared to have restored it shows that there's a larger problem than one person involved here. The suggestion of short-term topic ban for all involved until after the election makes sense to this point, because most of this appears centered on this developing issue, but I still believe we're not solving the long-term problems with this solution, but solving that is well beyond the remit of ArbCom. --MASEM (t) 23:02, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishesHere is edit by Anythingyouwant made in violation of 1RR rule on the page. This edit does not fix any BLP violations because (a) the material in question is well-sourced and included on the page itself [28] and other pages [29],[30] and (b) the material remains in the lede even after the edit by Anythingyouwant but became less visible (note that only poorly sourced materials are exempt from 1RR rule [31]). Actually, no one disputed that the information itself was well-sourced, and must be included on the page. The dispute was about including this info in lede. Moreover, Anythingyouwant made revert of material that is currently under discussion in an RfC and was warned not make this edit in advance [32], but still did it. My very best wishes (talk) 17:35, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by James J. LambdenI'd like one of the editors accusing AnythingYouWant to point to the discussion showing consensus for the edits she reverted. Steeletrap for example, makes no attempt to gain consensus for this latest edit. The sequence as I see it here is:
Instead of talk page discussion we have edit-warring and enforcement requests. Can we require admin approval for changes, with consensus required for admin approval? I don't think that's unreasonable for the two candidates' BLPs in the weeks leading up to the election. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:25, 20 October 2016 (UTC) While I understand administrators reluctance to involve themselves, by my quick-and-dirty math about a million people viewed the Donald Trump article with dubious accusations of "child sexual abuse" or "child rape" in the lede. That should warrant serious action in any BLP. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC) @Drmies: The talk page lists 3 active arbitration remedies. You support (I think) sanctioning Anythingyouwant for violating the 2nd, which limits reverts to one every 24 hours, but say nothing about the filer and others who violated the 1st:
Is the 1st less important or does the warning at the top of this page, which tells filers:
not apply? James J. Lambden (talk) 02:32, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
That same phrasing (sexual assault) was reinstated by MrX (diff), SPECIFICO (diff) and My very best wishes (diff) who all presented evidence against Anythingyouwant. At the time of their edits, as now, the RFC favors exclusion from the lede or a brief mention, with no consensus to include "sexual assault", so each of these reinstatements violated the arbitration remedy that editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion) In sanctioning Anythingyouwant you'd allow the filer and several supporters to unambiguously violate a remedy, while sanctioning Anythingyouwant for violating another in reverting their violation - in a high profile BLP, regarding "sexual assault." I find it hard to believe not a single admin is concerned by that. James J. Lambden (talk) 03:55, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by TataralAs pointed out by others, Anythingyouwant is "indefinitely topic-banned from abortion-related pages, broadly construed" (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion). One of the main issues for Donald Trump and his party in this election, as one could expect, is abortion (often in connection with appointments to the supreme court), which was one of the key issues debated, for instance, in the most recent presidential debate, in which Trump said "I am pro life and I will be appointing pro life judges" and even more polemically that under current abortion law in the US "You can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month, on the final day".[33] The fact that abortion is one of the main issues for the Republican Party in presidential elections is very well known, and Trump has made it clear for a long time, and well before the edits in question, that he is an anti-abortion political candidate who uses strong anti-abortion language and who will appoint "pro life judges". It seems quite clear that the Trump article is within the scope of a topic ban covering "abortion-related pages, broadly construed." --Tataral (talk) 03:27, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Dervorguilla"sexual assault. 1. Sexual intercourse with another person who does not consent. 2. Offensive sexual contact with another person, exclusive of rape." (Black's Law Dictionary, 10th ed.) In some states, sexual assault is understood to mean "forcible fondling" and the like. In other states, it's understood to mean "rape". An editor living in a conservative state may legitimately see a BLP violation where one living in a progressive state does not. (Note: The AP says that any statement "capable of conveying a defamatory meaning" is defamatory.) In a Wikipedia article, you can fairly and ethically say that a suspect is accused of "sexual assault" if you make clear whether the allegator accused him of (1) rape or (2) forcible fondling. Which was not the case here. It accordingly appears to me that Anythingyouwant did no wrong. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2016 (UTC) I've read the statements by The Blade of the Northern Lights and Lankiveil, who are "almost of the view that the top 10 editors of the article ... in the past month should be banned until after the election is out of its misery" and "would not object at all to a topic ban for a number of editors on both 'sides' of this dispute until at least November 10". I'm Editor No. 8, and I support any such bilateral ban. I'd like to see how the article evolves if we let the less-invested editors take over for a few weeks. I think you could feasibly implement an informal ban by asking all top-ten editors to voluntarily withdraw from editing the article for the duration. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:45, 22 October 2016 (UTC) 07:40, 23 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by JFGThroughout the election campaign, it has proven very hard to conduct a level-headed discussion towards building consensus. Discretionary sanctions are effective against simple trolls and relatively inexperienced editors, however experienced editors have both demonstrated uncanny capacity to skirt the rules or stonewall the process. Irrespective of political inclinations, AGF and BLP should prevail over attempts to smear a candidate or exonerate the other. This case looks like a sanctions war between two experienced editors who seem to be both exasperated by the "other side". Either we give them both a slap on the wrist in the form of a week block or we TBAN them from political topics for a few months to cut the drama. I would not condone any unilateral sanctions against one side who happened to have a slightly different reading of BLP defense than the other side. We are facing a good-faith attempt at maintaining balance, not a sneaky attempt to game the DS. Several other editors have switched the lead one way or the other, this fact alone shows there is no consensus about keeping sexual assault accusations in the lead; my personal opinion is they should be left out until the RfC concludes, but I'd rather stay uninvolved on contents here. The issue of imbalance between the way Trump and Clinton's bios are treated by the wikipedian community and journalistic sources is out of scope of this particular AE request but certainly needs to be kept in mind as background context in evaluating appropriate sanctions. — JFG talk 16:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Irony: A couple months ago, when discussing whether to mention Trump's campaign lies in his bio, I warned that the lead would soon read "Trump is a notorious racist bigot child molester who is very likely to start World War III over a tweet." We're getting there, BLP be damned… Sad! — JFG talk 23:52, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mr ErnieThere are many editors in that topic area intent on using any and all sources and tidbits of information that portray Trump in a negative light. There are also many editors who are keen to oppose this approach. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:47, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Dr. FleischmanI have no opinions to share about Anythingyouwant, but I would like to say that I trust that The Blade of the Northern Lights and Lankiveil's comments on the subject here and here were made in partial jest, and that if sanctions were to go beyond Anythingyouwant then evidence would be presented and those accused would get a chance to respond. I certainly agree that there's been a lot of POV pushing at Donald Trump recently, but I certainly wouldn't want to find myself the subject of arbitrary sanctions simply for contributing to a very controversial article. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by The Four DeucesI note Anythingyouwant changed "sexual assault" to "forcibly kissing and groping." The BLP issue seems to have some validity. A reader could be left with the impression that these were accusations of rape or similar felonies. I note that many news sources to refer to the allegations as "sexual assault," but they also clarify what the specific claims are. The version of the lead with "sexual assault" does not do that. While Anythingyouwant has explained their reasons for changing the wording, I would ask the administrators examining this complaint to read the edit summaries and arguments against the change. Basically they are that by definition, it constitutes sexual assault, reliable sources use the term and there is consensus to keep it. As I mentioned above, sources that use the term clarify the specific claims. But none of them explain how it improves the article. TFD (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by (Markbassett)???? What is listed seems clearly not 4 reverts (maybe too late but here's my $0.02) The first two cited here and here have the same text 'Late in Trump's campaign', so show one revert to put his prior edit back in place. (The note on both mention reverting so maybe two reverts. The next two there and there do not have the same text, so are not reverts of that prior item. They are also not the same between themselves -- it looks like Any changed "accusing him of varying degrees of assault" to "groping or forcible kissing by him" under note assault would mean rape; then when someone reinstated prior language a few (?) revs later he puts in a note "reverting to Dr. Fleischman' which edits an earlier part of the same line -- not to his third edit, it's undoing whoever reverted multiple intervening edits. Not a revert to his own language apparently, for whatever mitigation that may be. Again here what's shown is a mention of revert. I didn't go thru the history to see if I could confirm that they are actually reverts or not, but if that makes 3 it seems a bit mitigated that he was being self-reporting. It's a bit of sidenote - but there's a lot of thrash over 'bragging' vs 'reported as bragging' vs 'talked' and whether it's about 'sexual misconduct' vs 'capability for' vs 'sexual assault' -- plus whether 'sexual assault' should be viewed as saying the felony 'rape'. Markbassett (talk) 20:00, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Comment by Shock Brigade Harvester BorisGiven the unprecedented goings-on in the current U.S. presidential election it may be wise for any sanctions to continue until the outcome of the election is no longer a matter of significant dispute, or similar wording. The possibility of a drawn-out, acrimonious state-by-state legal challenge to the validity of the election is presently being discussed in high-end reliable sources.[34] These are strange times. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:00, 24 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by The WordsmithI am Recused from 2016 election-related articles, as usual. However as an editor, I would tend to largely agree with Dennis Brown here. Sexual assault and rape are not the same thing, however in many areas sexual assault is a euphemism for rape. The issue is not one of definition, but connotation. And having watched the discussions on that article for some time, good faith is failing and I have little doubt that the connotation wasn't absolutely intentional. It may not be a BLP vio by the literal text, but it definitely is by implication. I believe an admonishment is appropriate here, and after the election I predict that this topic area will be much quieter without the need for bans. The WordsmithTalk to me 14:12, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by SashiRolls
Statement by AwilleyThis is a tough case for me. I think that Anythingyouwant's reverts were good in that they were on the right side of BLP, and were in line with the relevant discussion on the talk page. But I'm not convinced it was the kind of clear-cut BLP violation that warrants an exemption to 1RR. I think the Trump article needs experienced editors to counter the folks who want, say, an entire paragraph in the Lead devoted to sexual assault allegations. Anythingyouwant has certainly been that, but in the process has been engaging in long term borderline behavior, knowing that it would eventually lead to a topic ban. (I can provide diffs if requested.) In short, I think a topic ban is overdue, but it bugs me that this particular issue is the last straw. ~Awilley (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Result concerning Anythingyouwant
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SageRad
On hold until 26 November 2016, to run concurrently with a voluntary wikibreak by SageRad. Bishonen | talk 08:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC). | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SageRad
SageRad is on a campaign against skepticism and for giving more credence to altmed, and this WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, civil as it may be, has been consistently disruptive on fringey medical and CAM topics like fad diets. The key issues are BLUDGEONing discussion with long soapbox-y rants against "skepticism" and for "Truth " -- a consistent behavior of using talk pages as forums, talking about "meta-issues", etc, instead of focused discussion on crafting content based on sources per policy and guidelines. He also misrepresents sources in the course of his arguments. In all of that, he fails to yield to consensus, and accuses other editors of lacking "integrity". His presence on these topics is just a tremendous time sink.
He has continued that campaign in WP space:
What spurs this filing, is that SageRad has continued this campaign -- really WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior -- against the perceived skeptic takeover, in article space this fall.
If you look at SageRad's contribs, this anti-skeptic pro-altmed editing is pretty much all they do here (with the exception of some Race & Intelligence work and some scattered editing on basic biology). In all these cases he is making difficult editing situations worse by adding his meta-issue to whatever the local issues are. Am suggesting a TBAN from anything related to health, as it is articles about health/alt med where he has mostly brought his SOAPBOXing and disruptive, time-wasting behavior. I would suggest alt med more narrowly but I don't want to get into endless border disputes. Jytdog (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SageRadStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SageRadWow. I think a few specific editors have it out for me and are making mountains out of molehills because they have it out for me. I do my best to follow sources and make good edits. On Jimbo's page, i speak to patterns i see within Wikipedia. Big deal. I use forums for discussion as they're intended. Big deal. Ironically, i've been having issues with Jytdog, the very editor who brought this here, for the whole time i've been on Wikipedia. Most recently, we've been at loggerheads on the Misophonia article. I don't think i have any other atypical conditions, but i have suffered from misophonia all my life, and only recently learned that others have the very same specific condition. And so i was learning more from MEDRS sources, and made few edits there too. And now that article seems to have a pretty serious WP:OWNership problem with this editor. Anyway, i just filed a request at the NPOV noticeboard for other editors to help out with that article, providing help with neutrality. And then i saw the notice about this AE case, and i just have to say Wow i'm pretty incredulous. Didn't even read the long diatribe by Jytdog. I'm honest, forthright, and speak what i see. In editing articles i've improved greatly since i began, and i think i understand the policies well. I edit according to policies. I speak honestly. I want good article -- nothing more. I want good articles that follow the best sources. Other people have issues that i speak to problems in Wikipedia. Are you going to shoot me for speaking? If so then it's on your hands. SageRad (talk) 11:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC) I'm pretty busy, have a child, and working. Last thing i want is drama. This is ridiculous. To anyone who sees Jytdog's lengthy diatribe, i ask you to simply choose any one aspect, and look at it in depth. Don't be fooled by the size of the complaint. See if it really holds up under a microscope. I'm not perfect, but i edit with integrity and following the policies of Wikipedia. Wikipedia has problems, but it's not me. SageRad (talk) 11:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC) Tiny note. So i saw Jytdog said "That discussion was moved to WT:FRINGE where he has written stuff like this" with a link here. Note that this contained typos and missing words and you should actually read this diff -- Jytdog, will you change that in your long long thing about me please? Wouldn't want to deceive a reader, would we? The difference in the text is huge in light of this case, and it's obvious i revised that immediately. SageRad (talk) 11:50, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
By the way, contrary to what Jytdog said, i do have access to most journal articles through my past university lab affiliation. Lastly, i admit i may have spoken too much about patterns within Wikipedia, or attributing motives to other editors, which should not use space on talk pages. Sometimes it's a response to the mirror image accusations made about me. In many ways, i appreciate Jytdog's integrity. In some ways, he really does own up to some sorts of mistakes and make corrections. He really does want to make the encyclopedia the best it can be, i believe, but perhaps needs to consider some things more carefully from time to time and not be so reactive. Sorry if that's too much critique to speak of another editor. I mean it with good will. SageRad (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Oh look.......... all the dozen or so enemies are out making horribly distorted and untrue nd biased and polemic statements against me. This is onerous and there ought to be a boomerang instead of me being on the defense. Jytdog needs to be reigned in. Everything he says about me is actually showing HIM to be on a "right great wrongs" bender, with a mission to eradicate people who disagree with him on some axes. I don't even have time for this shit. SageRad (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Jytdog has mounted an ideological crusade, and the people who are in continuous agreement with this come out to cheer "Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!" and others actually allow this. Get the hypocrisy, the irony:
If you let this happen, you have blood on your hands. See what's happening here. Speaking these things is not a crime! The shooting of people for speaking these things is a crime. Most of y'all who've come out of the woodword (predictably) are in the same camp -- demonstrably through your actions, words, and edits -- doing the very thing you're accusing me of merely speaking about. This place is damned. This place is gone. This place is captured by an ideological crew. I hold strong and true to everything i've said through my time here. It's more instructive who's come out to make statements against me, than the content of those statements. You can see who hates my presence here because they hate the things i say. That is instructive. Think for yourself, observers. Kill me if you must but i will not pander or lie.
Bishonen -- i just saw your comment in which you pinged me. I would like to request a month to get a defense together then. I would be able to process and not feel in jeopardy of a hammer coming down at any moment. The process has felt uncontrollable so far, with the sheer volume of Jytdog's long statement in which i'm described as a demon at all turns. It's far above the 500 word traditional word limit and it's too demonizing to make a simple statement about. It's too deep of a problem and needs some serious addressing. Another thing i would ask is to be able to erase the current statement and make a coherent new one. I've been in a panic mode of sorts and other things in life have been too demanding, and as a result i've written off the cuff. I've also been in shocked traumatic response to the half dozen people who've been in bad conflict with me for a long time all coming out of the woodwork to make horrible statements about me. Wow talk about a jury of one's enemies. SageRad (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Good luck with that. Unfortunately the effect is disgusting upon this repository supposedly of the world's knowledge which pretends to be independent and open-source but is actually controlled in this blatant way, though not obvious to those who have not been through the wringer like i have. So, good job! You've got a mouthpiece that appears to be neutral but is actually captured! I think someone is pleased with this establishment status quo. And the irony is my saying this will be ground for my destruction as a voice in the world of Wikipedia. Well, give me liberty of give me death. Guess you're choosing to give me death.
Here's the thing. I do see patterns here. I see editing patterns. Who doesn't? Is it wrong to speak of them? If it's wrong then Jytdog's entire screed is wrong. If it's not wrong, then it's okay. So why the double standard? Why's it alright for Jytdog at Talk:Misophonia to accuse others of advocacy editing, whereas to say that there are problematic patterns in his or others' editing is anathema? Why is it wrong to point out the very obvious "Skeptic" memes and sources that are populating Wikipedia so ubiquitously? Why's it wrong to point out that there is indeed a project to send people to Wikipedia to edit with this directive, in fact, as documented by external sources? Why is it defined as a complete and total capital offense to speak of things in one direction, and yet the mirror image is completely sanctioned, and even praised and worshipped? Seems there is a power structure with a particular bent here. I am not "bludgeoning" -- i've spoken the same amount as others here in some public forum locations -- like Jimbo's page, and like the talk page on the "fringe" guideline. Those were places where this discussion is sanctioned --- so why is it seen as "evidence" of my "wrongdoing" when Jytdog presents these things here? And yeah -- the article on Dr Michael Greger -- i did indeed question the use of the word "skeptic" as a title for a person. So? That's good critique of the article. It's a real point that i can legally and rightfully bring up. Why is that presented as if it's a crime? Jeez.... does anyone see the craziness of this AE case? This is like The Trial. My crime? Thinking about things and speaking. Yes, it is like Stalin's Party. There are unspeakable things. You must not say them or you get taken here, and pilloried. Yes, it is like McCarthyism. Saying this is not wrong. You don't have to agree. But why is saying that a punishable offense? I'll tell you why. It's a thoughtcrime. You should think on that. Why is something a thoughtcrime here in Wikipedia? Perhaps because there is a power issue at play. Anyway, i edit according to policies. You will see within the last few months, any edit i have made to an article is 9 times out of 10 a good edit with good sources. I'm not pushing anything into articles. I'm not pushing an agenda other than to make good articles following the sources. Please, please, go to the misophonia article and the Talk:Misophonia talk page and see for yourselves. Please, see whether i am breaking any rules in a bad way, or simply trying to improve the article. With that, i will take a one month wiki-break. I need my time for other things and have too much to do to take part in a trial of this kind, and have little expectation of justice prevailing anyway. Sage Statement by JzGSageRad has taken it upon himself to be arbiter of "integrity" on Wikipedia. The recent discussions on Jimbotalk showed that Sage rejects conflicting opinion as invalid, and considers that intergrity is measured by consonance with his ideology. On his user page he links to a website promoting an "ethical skeptic" agenda, which promotes Brian Martin (conspiracy theorist and supervisor of Judith Wilyman's substandard and anti-vaccine PhD) and the website where Rupert Sheldrake, Dean Radin and others rant against pesky science for not accepting their beliefs. He has adopted the rhetoric of Rome Viharo, who was banned for sockpuppetry while promoting Sheldrake and woo-meister Deepak Chopra (where he also had a COI, IIRC). Sage has used the name of Viharo's website, Wikipedia, we have a problem, as the title of at least one o his threads: [36]. One could put this down to the aftermath of ARBGMO, but long before that he was inserting accusations of censorship against David Gorski based on Gorski's banning him from commenting for trolling. The skeptic community is generally skeptical about anti-GMO rhetoric, and this seems to have set Sage against organised skepticism pretty much from the outset. All this would be fine if Sage were capable of understanding the difference between his opinion and objective fact. He consistently demonstrates that he is not. Sage is intelligent and articulate, but he lacks the ability to accept that any conclusion differing from his own might be grounded in truth. The diffs above clearly show this. The biggest problem is that any topic ban would have to include all areas subject to skeptical activism, and I don't honestly think he edits anything much else. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TryptofishI don't have anything particularly global to add, although I agree with Bishonen's concern that there is a genuine time-sink going on. Some of this may be wits-end exasperation on the part of good-faith editors, but some of it is also a clash between editors who just cannot stand one another. See also: User talk:SageRad#Talk:Misophonia. It's not as simple as white-hats and black-hats. Instead of editors getting sucked into tl;dr arguments where nobody persuades anyone else, have content RfCs been adequately explored as a way of moving past logjams? (Example RfC question: "Below are some sources that say that misphonia is a genuine disorder, and some sources that say that it is not. Taking the sources together, should this page present it as a genuine disorder?") I've been trying to think of a possible DS restriction on SageRad that might be practical to design. Perhaps a word limit for talk page comments about AltMed pages? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Note: I IAR put back (collapsed) the version of Sage's statement that he had reverted, and I think that it is a better statement than his original one. @Sage: you are permitted to add to your original statement, so you can always add new stuff (well, there's a word limit that is not being followed at the moment) as long as you don't delete the old stuff; you can also strike through anything you wrote. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Kingofaces43I've been seeing problems with SageRad continue to brew on my watchlist after their GMO sanctions. Just in the context of their previous sanctions from GMOs, part of the reasoning why they were topic banned was the exact same behavior we're still seeing here. When people start to complain about how a topic is being antagonized by SageRad's continued soapboxing, they're often met with SageRad's "What, who me?" responses when told to knock it off just like we are seeing in their response to this AE. Basically, disruption in fringe and health topics followed by playing the victim when they're behavior on article pages is called out. Add in the obvious battleground behavior, and we're back to where we were with SageRad before the GMO ArbCom case. That's especially apparent with their "othering" (i.e., "bullies") of editors that try to curtail the disruption SageRad causes in topics where they engage in advocacy or soapboxing about their personal ideals. It's becoming apparent SageRad just won't listen even after their sanctions. Same behavior as GMOs, just different topics now. At the end of the day, I don't have strong convictions about specific action against SageRad since I don't have to deal with them in my topic areas anymore (mainspace at least), but it's apparent they just moved their behavior issues outside their topic ban. I do feel for editors that still end up putting up with this behavior pretty regularly though. Here area a few ideas for sanctions to impose on SageRad that should at least stop the disruption and maybe turn them around: 1. One-way interaction ban when dealing with Jytdog. I don't have super strong support for this as it's really just a band-aid, but the continued battleground behavior is obvious while Jytdog has been acting at least relatively reasonable (though obviously frustrated) in the face of this string of continued behavior. I'm usually open to less complicated two-way bans, but I think we can agree SageRad's behavior is the core issue here to work on first. 2. Expanding topic bans as JzG mentioned. Probably the most concrete topic ban would be a broadly construed ban on any topic related to health (including environmental contamination for clarity). A topic ban on any WP:FRINGE topic could be a secondary consideration, but that's harder to define for avoiding wikilawyering. Word limits might have been a consideration back when SageRad was newer to Wikipedia, but the issue here seems to be they just can't let go in these topics. 3. Long-term block. SageRad has used tons of rope already still showing behavior (regardless of what they actually say) that they are not WP:HERE and are instead using Wikipedia more for soapboxing and hyperbole. Maybe that can change if they are handed a topic ban that gets them out of this activism mindset and into topics where they can act like a normal editor. I think we have to acknowledge though that if this all continues, the WP:ROPE is going leading to this last option. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SkyringAfter a tangential mention in discussion below, a tangential comment. SageRad has his own strong views, is well-informed, intelligent, and productive. There's a place for him here. But when he encounters opposition, rather than discuss the points of opposition in the context on improving the article(s), he takes it personal and tries to convert other editors to his views, which he considers to be the rational factual objective plain truth, and everybody else is a deluded fool or a tool of big business or something, and ultimately Wikipedia is fatally flawed because of this evil and that evil. Well, it's not. It works, it's a valuable reference, it's an internet marvel. SageRad should get offa his soapbox, work with those who have contrary opinions, and for the love of ghod, stop filling pages with long rambling rants! SageRad, we love you, we want you, it's just your behaviour needs a bit of a tweak. Okay? --Pete (talk) 06:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by AlexbrnAs an editor who has had a role in the current Chemophobia article I was surprised to see, on 20 October, postings by SageRad on both the article's Talk page and at WP:FT/N report a "POV issue" because "This article presents 'chemophobia' as if it's a psychological phenomenon ..." On re-reading the article I saw (as did a number of other editors) that this is simply not the case: the article says precisely the opposite. This has been pointed out but since then no retraction, explanation or further comment has been made. On top of SageRad's editing history this looks far from being constructive activity. What is going on? Because of SageRad's problematic stance towards skepticism I don't think a TBAN on health content is quite right - a TBAN needs to cover (probably in addition) any topic covered by the WP:FRINGE guidance - broadly construed - though I fear this will not succeed because SageRad seems to have a novel view of what is, and is not, fringe that is out-of-sync with the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by OID@Wordsmith, discretionary sanctions are authorised for a number of areas SageRad has been problematic in. So realistically you could apply any sanction you wanted (provided you felt it had merit). The real issue is that SageRad is not topic-bound in his disruption. He has an anti-skeptic agenda which manifests in disruptive editing wherever skepticism is evident. He is not pro-fringe as it was, just anti-evidence-based science. His editing MO is to show up at an article, declare bias, argue with people until he finally gets they dont agree with him, then rants about how everything is unfair. The problem is fringe and skepticism cover a huge range of topics. From pseudoscience, lifestyle, history, medical etc. Normally a targetted topic ban would suffice, but to limit SageRad's disruption would require a 0/1 revert restriction AND some sort of enforced character limit on discussions. And even *then* that would really only just keep disruption to a minimum, it wouldnt prevent anything as SageRad has a worldview that is incompatible with how Wikipedia populates article content. Alexbrn has laid out the most recent example. Jzg and a couple of others say SageRad is clearly intelligent etc, but I disagree. SageRad has repeatedly failed to grasp basic wikipedia concepts & policies, and as Alexbrn's example shows above, clearly has an issue in reading comprehension. There is a CIR issue here. This may be because he skim-reads and fails to grasp what is actually said - Jytdog has listed a number of examples where SageRad cherry-picks/looks at brief abstracts/summaries instead of reading and understanding what material actually says. But this disruption is not limited to Wikipedia, this is just his latest venue for pushing his POV/Agenda. He came here (and was subsequently sanctioned) after getting into conflict with Gorski. He previously linked to his rants/comments offsite - and even a basic internet search shows his attack-dog mentality when criticised (just in case anyone thinks to accuse me of outing, SageRad has previously linked to his offsite comments himself, then deleted them when it was pointed out they showed his bias). If you are unable to actually implement a workable sanction, this will need to go to ANI or Arbcom for a site ban discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Plea by DrChrissyI am not here to comment on the merits or otherwise of this case, rather, I am here to make observations on Sage's behaviour and a plea for a moritorium. Sage's most recent behaviour on this noticeboard and at other places is very uncharacteristic for him. He is making unfocussed edits and flailing around in the multiple threads regarding his behaviour. He has even resorted to swearing which I don't think I have ever seen him do before. His baby is a new baby, I think only 6 weeks old or so, and I think is his first. To make this brief, I believe Sage may be experiencing some sort of melt-down. A moritorium would show compassion and allow Sage to either calm down and/or make decisions in a more rational way which Arbcom would be more able to deal with. DrChrissy (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Robert McClenonUnfortunately, I see two problems here. The first has to do with the subject editor, User:SageRad, who has been editing aggressively since May 2015 with a strong point of view on medical and agricultural topics. The second has to do with the history between the subject editor and the filing editor, User:Jytdog. Jytdog has long been editing aggressively in accordance with Wikipedia policy to try to ensure that medical and scientific articles follow Wikipedia medical reliable source guidelines. Jytdog is almost always right with regard to policy, and has made enemies in Wikipedia, and SageRad is one of them, and SageRad has been aggressively attacking Jytdog since he began editing Wikipedia in May 2015. (SageRad made a few scattered edits before then.) Jytdog is absolutely correct in writing: Actually, one more thing. The history between SageRad and me does go back to his very first edits here. Jytdog is completely correct in writing: I don't seek SageRad out; he keeps showing up on topics I edit and behaving this way. I first became familiar with SageRad when he showed up at the dispute resolution noticeboard hounding Jytdog and claiming mistakenly to be a DRN volunteer. SageRad has been going after Jytdog at least since June 2015. It is impossible to reason with SageRad to advise him that his behavior is disruptive. SageRad has, since May 2015, seen all efforts to advise him to modify his behavior as "McCarthyism" and "bullying". SageRad was topic-banned by the ArbCom from the topic area of genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals. (In case anyone argues that there was a kangaroo court proceeding, he wasn’t just banned by one kangaroo under discretionary sanctions. He was banned by the community-elected panel of kangaroos, except that we are not kangaroos because we are great apes.) He has recently been blocked twice, first for five days, then for one month. It isn’t clear why SageRad is so determined to change Wikipedia when he has apparently decided that Wikipedia is such an ugly corrupt place, but that is SageRad. If any editor other than Jytdog had been the one filing this request, I would suggest that SageRad be Site-Banned. As it is, Jytdog is the wrong editor to be filing this request, because Jytdog is right, but it looks too much like (almost justified) revenge. I suggest that SageRad be blocked for another month, and that Jytdog be asked to let other editors deal with SageRad after he is unblocked this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by CapeoI was trying to avoid commenting here because I've butted heads enough with Sage that it just feels like piling on. That said, what the admins here are seeing as a meltdown is actually pretty par for the course. Outbursts claiming McCarthyism (such as here [43] against Guy or here [44] against... everyone I guess) are fairly normal with Sage, though the Stalinism claim is a new one to me. This has been an ongoing issue when it comes to such hyperbolic claims against other users or WP in general. Capeo (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Just a further note to admins, it seems unlikely SageRad will accept a voluntary editing restriction after saying they wouldn't accept an enforced one. I highly doubt it will work and will just serve to incite more drama. Perhaps I'm wrong, and SageRad will be fine with it, but I don't think you're going to get the response you're hoping for. Capeo (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Because SageRad keeps insisting that folks look at the Misophonia talk page I did. As well as the article, its history, its sources and the current research. The article was a mess earlier in the year with extraordinary levels of advocate editing. To the degree that editors were adding things to the article, openly in edit summaries no less, to favor particular researchers. The majority of editors on the talk page over the last couple years I looked at also say they have Misophonia. It was brought back to some semblance of balance by Jytdog and others back in February. It quickly spiraled back to being a mess in the interceding months. Looking at the current research "a proposed condition" is exactly the proper way to characterize Misophonia according to the preponderance of RS. There is no diagnostic criteria for it. It's not listed in any diagnostic text. It's near invariably associated with other conditions such as OCD (primarily), anxiety disorders, Autism spectrum or Tourette's Syndrome. SageRad's selective use of a sentence from the Cavanna abstract is not engaging with the actual sources or even the abstract in question, or even Cavanna's actual paper. Even in the abstract itself, it's admitted "At the present stage, competing paradigms see misophonia as a physiological state potentially inducible in any subject, an idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders), or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder." Cavanna and the one study he cites that agrees with him (that aren't his own) is the only person I can find that presently suggests it might be a primary condition. Even then he admits, in regard to the current definition of Misophonia, "This definition challenges the subsequently proposed views that misophonia is a discrete/idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders)8 or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder, at least in a proportion of cases.4 If confirmed by future systematic studies in large populations, the presence of high rates of comorbidity would go against the argument that misophonia should be labeled as a primary diagnosis. In fact, it would suggest that it is a symptom manifestation of other underlying or comorbid diagnoses and should more appropriately be labeled as a symptom, rather than as a stand-alone diagnosis. Either way, the addition of misophonia to nosographic classification systems of psychiatric disorders, such as the DSM, would require careful consideration." 8 is the study I mentioned. 4 is a short paper by Cavanna. Long story short: Jytdog's wording is correct and it appears SageRad is ignoring the caveats the source in question, which he provided, which isn't even close to the totality of sources in question. Capeo (talk) 01:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by MjolnirPantsI'm not going to post my usual, fifteen paragraph explanation of every nuance of my own thoughts about this. I'm just going to say two things.
Statement by (Roxy the dog)I'm going to tender for the WP:ROPE supply contract with wikipedia. Must be racing up in value. -Roxy the dog™ bark 08:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning SageRad
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DevilWearsBrioni
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DevilWearsBrioni
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Athenean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DevilWearsBrioni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBMAC :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
DWB is a user with a history of WP:IDHT, WP:FORUMSHOPPING, WP:FILIBUSTER and WP:BATTLEGROUND that causes considerable disruption in Balkan related topics. A dispute at Expulsion of Cham Albanians that began months ago over DWB's unsubstantiated claims of WP:OR has been dragging on because DWB cannot concede that there is no case of WP:OR. The dispute has been ongoing since January 2016, and in August of this year DWB filed at WP:DRN [49]. The discussion at DRN dragged on for a long time due to filibustering by DWB, but the outcome was 100% against him. DWB then goes to the DRN talkpage, alleging that the dispute was not handled properly [50] even though there are no grounds to support this. This also drags on for a while due to filibustering and again the result is against DWB. The dispute then moved to formal mediation [51], where the mediator, User:Anthony Appleyard has asked him to stay on topic and stop filibustering [52] [53]. All the uninvolved users that have interacted with DWB in these disputes seem to think that DWB is behaving disruptively: User:Iazyges [54] [55] [56], User:Robert McClenon [57], User:Anthony Appleyard [58]. It is quite clear from these discussions that DWB is not going to accept "no" for an answer or WP:DROPTHESTICK. Added to that is a WP:BATTLEGROUND type behavior of filing frivolous reports at AN/I against users that disagree with him [59] [60] (both reports a huge of waste of the community's time and summarily dismissed). Looking through this user's contribs, I see very little content creation and positive editing, and a whole lot of wikidrama. The disruption caused by DWB far outweighs any positive contribs. Athenean (talk) 05:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I would also like to draw attention to this attempt at off-wiki canvassing by DWB on Reddit [63]. DWB admitted was him [64] in this AN/I attack thread [65]. Athenean (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
@T. Canens: I have e-mailed MEDCOM to ask for permission to include the mediation deliberations as evidence. Further more, per WP:MC/P#PRIV, Protecting the integrity of mediation does not extend to protecting users who deliberately subvert the mediation process. Therefore, if a party engages in disruptive or bad-faith conduct during mediation, and that conduct later becomes the subject of Wikipedia disciplinary proceedings, the Mediation Committee will decline to protect the privileged nature of that party's communications.. I firmly believe that DWB is being deliberately obstructive at the mediation proceedings. Athenean (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
@T.Canens: I have struck the portion of my report involving the mediation proceedings. I will untrike if MEDCOM responds affirmatively to my request. All previous diffs are from before Sep. 26 are used to show a pattern of filibustering; the behavior at mediation was what led me to file a report. Athenean (talk) 07:46, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DevilWearsBrioni
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DevilWearsBrioni
@Athenean: ”The discussion at DRN dragged on for a long time due to filibustering by DWB.” It was closed within a few hours after discussion was opened, which you would have noticed if you actually looked into it and not just routinely assumed things. While Athenean likes to throw around links to various essays like WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:IDHT, I'll provide some illustrative examples of his hypocrisy in regards to this. When Athenean once tried to discredit a source, he argued that it should be avoided, and concluded "Otherwise things will get real ugly real quick." [67] In his attempts to discredit the author, Athenean claimed that there were factual errors in the book regarding the Italian takeover of Greece in 1917. [68] I provided him with additional sources that confirmed these details, i.e. contrary to what Athenean had claimed, there was in fact was an Italian takeover of Greece in 1917. [69] Athenean ignored this, only to show up later in the discussion stating in a provocative way, "careful what you wish for" while simultaneously casting doubt on several sources, because according to Athenean, Chams weren't really oppressed, regardless of what the sources claimed. [70] After I had provided Athenean with the additional sources that confirmed the events in 1917, Athenean only made one more statement related to it, he declared in another section/discussion that I had made up the "fictitious invasions of Greece by Italy in 1917." [71]
@Iazyges: You stated that I would, ”per WP:M”, be blocked if I ”disrupt the decisions made” after you had closed the DRN.[72] First of all, while I fully understand that your opinion should not be disregarded in the consensus process, you have no authority, as a DRN volunteer, to issue decisions concerning disputes. Second, the part in WP:M, which you referred to, [73] [74] deals with user conduct during mediation. How is that, and I’m sorry if I’m being blunt, not clear to you? The part you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with enforcing content dispute decisions, because again, volunteers don't issue decisions, and it has everything to do with user conduct during mediation.
During mediation SilentResident was, in regular fashion, campaigning for sanctions against me, and Anthony_Appleyard apparently took everything she said at face value. The latter filed a report against me at AN/I, stating that ”User:DevilWearsBrioni has ignored two ARBMAC warnings already on the matter and likely would ignore a third” which essentially echoed what SilentResident had told him moments earlier, i.e. ”resorting to a mere third ARBMAC warning against the editor DevilWearsBrioni will do nothing”. [75] For clarification, I had received one ARBMAC warning by an editor I've rarely seen eye to eye with on anything. And honestly, it boggles my mind that an admin of 10 years just parrots what he’s being told and uses that as an argument for sanctions against me at AN/I. Anthony, when you claim that I have ignored two ARBMAC warnings, what do you mean and how does my behavior justify sanctions? Could you point to something specific? Did you actually bother looking into whether SilentResident's accusations were true?
@SilentResident: How about you provide some evidence (diffs) for the things you accuse me of? You could start with diffs of 3RR breaches, an accusation you like to throw around. Recently you even told Anthony, among many things in your efforts to get me banned, that I've resumed "with new 3RR breaches". [76] Would you be so kind to provide those diffs?
Question to admins: I'd like to ask for permission to post my side of the story with regards to my interactions with SilentResident, but it's currently not possible since I will excede the 500 word limit. I will provide diffs to prove that she's created a false narrative about me that I argue should be sanctionable. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 13:35, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by User:Iazyges
One thing that concerns me is his apparent knowledge of many WP guidelines but it seems that when it comes to WP's that disagree with or contradict him, he either has selectively avoided them or feigns ignorance. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I would also add that for the DRN case, it was arguable that there was fault, but this is because the DRN isn't for a "right wrong" conclusion, unlike OR or RFC there are no "winners", it's for building consensus so that ideally all parties agree to something, because of this a OR case like this doesn't really belong in DRN. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I gave DWB a (arguably) formal warning, by telling him that if he chose to continue disruption without community involvement, I could request that he be sanctioned by an admin, per WP:M (Which covers informal mediation, DRN and mediation comitee mediation. While RFC was an option, i suggested formal mediation or else arbitration, (I was at the time under the misconception that the mediation committee's agreements were binding, i was informed that it wasn't later by another mediator of the DRN) due to the history of the talk page and OR arguments. He chose to ignore these warnings.
- I have removed this after reviewing it and realizing that I mis-read it earlier. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:48, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
@Resnjari: I resent your implication of partiality. How have I been partial? I closed it in a logical manner, unless the source that agreed with it was totally disproven it isn't OR. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:03, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by User:Robert McClenon
Unfortunately, I have to agree with the filing party that the only way to avoid disruption is to give User:DevilWearsBrioni an indefinite topic-ban from all Balkan-related editing. Informal mediation was attempted at the dispute resolution noticeboard. DWB persistently argues that any edits with which they disagree are necessarily original research, in spite of repeatedly having that argument considered and rejected. I then proposed formal mediation, which is being done by User:Anthony Appleyard, to which the parties agreed. However, DWB apparently isn't following the mediator's instructions to stay on topic (even though multiple copies have been defined) and is filibustering. I don't see any alternative to an indefinite topic-ban, because this editor is not contributing constructively to the encyclopedia in the Balkan area but is being disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I have, belatedly, given User:DevilWearsBrioni the formal alert concerning discretionary sanctions. It is unfortunately my opinion that this case will have to be withdrawn as being defective in two respects. First, it appears that the formal notice wasn't given earlier. Second, it relies partly on inadmissible testimony from Mediation proceedings. As a result, I think that DevilWearsBrioni should be given a very strong normal administrative warning that any further disruptive editing in the area of the Balkans will result in a topic ban. A topic-ban isn't (as far as I can tell) within the scope of normal administrative action. Clearly formal mediation isn't going to work, because it has already been tried and has failed, so only administrative action is available. If anyone wants to go back to WP:ANI and ask for a community topic ban, that is within the scope of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:19, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- I see that the alert was given on 26 September 2016. Therefore any disruptive editing after 26 September 2016, except in formal mediation, is sanctionable. I defer to the judgment of the Mediation Committee and the administrators here as to whether disruption of mediation is sanctionable. However, it doesn't appear that there was any disruptive editing outside of mediation after 26 September, so that I restate my recommendation that this case be closed with a very strong normal administrative warning that any further disruptive editing will result in at least a topic-ban and possible an indefinite block. At this point, a topic-ban is unfortunately out of scope, and a block would be punitive. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:24, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- I have, belatedly, given User:DevilWearsBrioni the formal alert concerning discretionary sanctions. It is unfortunately my opinion that this case will have to be withdrawn as being defective in two respects. First, it appears that the formal notice wasn't given earlier. Second, it relies partly on inadmissible testimony from Mediation proceedings. As a result, I think that DevilWearsBrioni should be given a very strong normal administrative warning that any further disruptive editing in the area of the Balkans will result in a topic ban. A topic-ban isn't (as far as I can tell) within the scope of normal administrative action. Clearly formal mediation isn't going to work, because it has already been tried and has failed, so only administrative action is available. If anyone wants to go back to WP:ANI and ask for a community topic ban, that is within the scope of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:19, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by User:SilentResident
The problem with user:DevilWearsBrioni is that although he has a decent knowledge of Wikipedia's rules, his editorial conduct so far has been extremely disruptive on ARBMAC-protected articles. His actions and stance have not contributed anything, besides disruption. He's trying to impose certain POV regarding historical events of the past, at the expense of neutrality. To achieve this, he keeps raising false WP:OR and WP:SYNTH cases, (where in NOR Board, DRN Board, ANI Board Mediation Board, and Talks, absolutely no neutral party has backed him). By insisting on his own perception of rules, broke 3RR [77], violated ARBMAC [78], violated NPOV, abused the Tagging [79], acted against consensus, refused to be reasoned by others, dismissed dispute resolutions [80], and refuses to remedy. This leaves us no other options. I suggest that DevilWearsBrioni is indefinitely banned from any Balkan topic-related articles, or at least be given a strong warning like Robert McClenon suggested. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:15, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Note for T. Canens: Such a diff exists, just it seems the filler forgot to include it: [81]. The AE report has now been corrected. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:01, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Moved to editor's section from results section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:22, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- Reply to Resnjari: Since the majority of the scholars agree on traitorous collaboration of Chams with Nazis, and only a minority adopts the viewpoint from that peer viewed content you have tried to restore, then I have every right to remove it until it is fairly presented into the article, without leaving a false impression of being the majority's viewpoint. If you do believe that citation reflecting a minority viewpoint shouldn't be clarified in its attribution (name those who support it), then, you better send an e-mail to the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales, and tell him your disagreements with his rules. What he said: "1) If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; 2) If your viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; 3) If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then—whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not—it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research." As for assuming Bad Faith, this unfortunately is not the first time. Such assumptions you have made in the past too, like here: [82], where you have assumed the Wikipedians for bias against Muslims when they do not accept your positions. Furthermore, accusing the Mediators, such as Iazyges, for partiality just because they did not rule in favor of your positions, makes your own objectivity and good faith rather questionable. -- SILENTRESIDENT 08:57, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mediation Committee
A request to waive the privilege of mediation has been made to the Mediation Committee and will be discussed on the Committee's mailing list. Unless and until such time as the Committee consents to waive the privilege, nothing said or done in the mediation may, by policy, be used as evidence in this proceeding. All previously-made statements made about what has happened there should be withdrawn and, whether or not withdrawn, must be disregarded by all administrators considering this case. For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 07:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC) (Chairperson)
- The request to waive the privilege of mediation has been declined by the Committee. The privilege of mediation remains in effect and, as noted above, nothing said or done in the mediation may, by policy, be used as evidence in this proceeding. All previously-made statements made about what has happened there should be withdrawn and, whether or not withdrawn, must be disregarded by all administrators considering this case. For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC) (Chairperson)
Statement by User:Resnjari
I am a little concerned about some editors in here advocating for a ban on Brioni in participating on all Balkan related topics on Wikipedia. Brioni’s insistence on raising certain content issues have been in relation to one article, that of the Expulsions of the Chams. A number of editors who have participated in that discussion themselves have resorted to colourful language and made editing unpalatable at times, things of which they accuse Brioni in here. Moreover when Brioni has taken matters to DRN, the process was closed within a short period of time which he felt certain issues were not addressed adequately. I noted a similar sentiment on my part to editor Iazyges who eventually acknowledged that a concern of mine was within reason (see my comments: [83]). No editor who participated in the Chams discussion in here is clean and one can cite multiple issues on their part in the talkpage. The process is now at formal mediation where it should have gone long ago (where discussion can be had in depth, over time, instead of it being rushed and without an impartial third party watching over proceedings). All editors need to observe good faith there and stick to content instead of trivial issues. The topic of the Chams is complex and yes there are passions. Passions though should not guide the editing process such as this insistence of “traitorous actions” [84] by Silent being invoked to remove peer reviewed material thereby making good faith questionable. A final warning should be made to all participants.Resnjari (talk) 14:26, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- Reply to @SilentResident:. Well it’s not just a scholar’s “opinion” and “traitorous actions” being a reason for removal of content do not suffice. The second pillar of which you cite is exactly my point. “Traitorous actions” is not a reason to remove peer reviewed content even if you don't like it.See this is why the in the end the discussion has had to go to mediation where an outside and impartial editor to keep an eye out on proceedings. Whether Brioni will be part of those discussions or not, i don’t know. Regarding myself, I now have time and will be partaking in the discussions.Resnjari (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- 2nd reply to @SilentResident:. My comment was a follow up to your reason of “traitorous actions” which was not based on policy but your personal opinion regarding removal of peer reviewed content. What am I supposed to make of that? I have had more than a few experiences on Wikipedia by now with other editors on different topics. These editors acknowledged the mass violence and suffering done to Christian populations by Ottoman Muslim perpetrators, as I do. However when the religious identities are reversed relating to victim and perpetrator, those same editors have questioned such events and the validity of an article existing, even though peer reviewed sources exist. Such experiences have made me skeptical and it was with those thoughts in mind that I replied to you at the time. That’s why I prefer mediation and someone keeping an eye on things. May take longer, however it will be a binding and final outcome.Resnjari (talk) 17:50, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- @SilentResident:, once again you use that word “traitorous” and this time in front of “collaboration". The scholarship does not discount that a portion of the Muslim Cham population joined the side of the Axis powers. None though use loaded terminology such as “traitorous” like yourself. So I stand once again by what I wrote that issues relating to the article should be undertaken in mediation, so at least some kind of semblance of good faith is maintained.Resnjari (talk) 18:29, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Iazyges:, my comments were in relation to the process that occurred that was concluded within the scope of just an hour or two and closed. This left out other editors involved in the discussion being unable to comment. In the exchange that followed in the DRN talkpage there was acknowledgement that an issue I raised regarding Cham sentiments on the eve of the Balkan wars was within reason. The forum DRN that Brioni took the matter to is limited as it is designed to hear and resolve disputes in a limited fashion and not designed for a prolonged and in depth discussion. This subject matter is complex and is now at mediation. @SilentResident:, I stand by my comments and issues of that nature should be dealt at mediation. If you still wish to partake in the discussion, do so, if not your choice. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:21, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
- @SilentResident:, once again you use that word “traitorous” and this time in front of “collaboration". The scholarship does not discount that a portion of the Muslim Cham population joined the side of the Axis powers. None though use loaded terminology such as “traitorous” like yourself. So I stand once again by what I wrote that issues relating to the article should be undertaken in mediation, so at least some kind of semblance of good faith is maintained.Resnjari (talk) 18:29, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- 2nd reply to @SilentResident:. My comment was a follow up to your reason of “traitorous actions” which was not based on policy but your personal opinion regarding removal of peer reviewed content. What am I supposed to make of that? I have had more than a few experiences on Wikipedia by now with other editors on different topics. These editors acknowledged the mass violence and suffering done to Christian populations by Ottoman Muslim perpetrators, as I do. However when the religious identities are reversed relating to victim and perpetrator, those same editors have questioned such events and the validity of an article existing, even though peer reviewed sources exist. Such experiences have made me skeptical and it was with those thoughts in mind that I replied to you at the time. That’s why I prefer mediation and someone keeping an eye on things. May take longer, however it will be a binding and final outcome.Resnjari (talk) 17:50, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by User:Alexikoua
Apart from the evidence provided above, which appears quite overwhelming against DevilWearsBrioni, I believe that some additional piece of info may be helpfull: DWB displayed an aggresive pattern from his very beginning in wikipedia (forumshopping, reddit&off wiki activity as he admitted) and did not hesitate to fill two frivolous ANI reports against me (both of them summarily dismissed) [[85]] [[86]]. Even the heading of the last report-attack leaves no doubt that this editor is not here to built an encyclopedia in a constructive manner: he questions eight years of contribution of a co-editor as he clearly declares in the heading.
After the following DRN turned against him, it was time for the DRN vollunteer to became his new opponent: he even edit-warred [[87]][[88]] and warned him not to revert again: [[89]]. Although he was again adviced by mediator not to engage in further edit-warring [[90]], this wasn't enough: [[91]]
The OR obsession in the case of 'Expulsion of Cham Albanians' and the way it is handled by DWB during the last months, reveals a disruption and stubborness. The fact that a number of mediators/administrators asked for a ban/restriction isn't unfounded. Although a topic ban in the entire ARBMAC may be too much a restriction in a more limited area, let's say Albania/-ns broadly constructed, will certainly be a better solution.Alexikoua (talk) 20:13, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DevilWearsBrioni
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Two procedural points:
- We need something more for "awareness", which has a very technical meaning in this context. See WP:AC/DS#aware.aware. If no such diff is available, we can't impose a discretionary sanction, but normal admin action is still available.
- Per WP:MC/P#PRIV, formal mediation proceedings cannot be used as evidence in subsequent dispute settlement absent prior written consent from MEDCOM. Unless such consent has been given, the portion of the complaint related to mediation will have to be stricken. T. Canens (talk) 07:54, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- Since the formal notification diff we have is from Sept. 26, can the complainant organize his diffs to make clear which ones took place before the formal notification and which one after? We can consider diffs before the notification as background or for normal admin action, but not for a discretionary sanction. In addition, please remove all references to the formal mediation proceedings unless and until MEDCOM waives the privilege. T. Canens (talk) 01:46, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Information
- The noticeboard discussion is now at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive936#Dispute about page Expulsion of Cham Albanians. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:07, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by ה-זפר
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- ה-זפר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Blocked for 1 year for breach of Arab-Israeli conflict topic ban (diff of block)
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Admin notified - diff
Statement by ה-זפר
Copied from user talk page at User_talk:ה-זפר#NOT_GOOD! by Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Please copy my appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard or administrators' noticeboard. :I was blocked, with out a explanation, the reason stated was I did a violation of my ARBPIA articles ban, but I did follow my topic ban by not editing IL-PS topics. What I didn't know is that Tel Aviv, Gush Dan, and even Golan Heights are related to IL-PS conflict. I believe Golan is like IL-SY dispute, and I'm notified on topic ban of IL-PS topics. (and now it changed to Arab-IL topics?) :On Golan Heights (this edit in particular), I tried to make the article better, but Attar-Aram syria got involved with me in a revert conflict, after I took it to talk page, I know I was topic banned. On the talk page the user said "Your edit should keep the mentioning of the occupation in the infobox", and in my edit occupation was in the head and in the infobox was the current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds). The other user was not notified on revert conflict. and there was a post on my talk page saying in "you have too much of an Israeli slant in your editing style", whereas my edit was indeed neutral. I was just revering to get the fact of Purple line on the head of Golan Heights, the other user finally agreed, but continued revert conflict on the infobox on current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds) = to just, occupied by Israel. :After a recent report at AN, I got blocked? why? My topic ban was not explained to me and also I got blocked now? This is very unfair! David Aaron talk 04:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Please note I originally copied the above message incorrectly and lost the links. I have now replaced it with the source and it now contains the links - nothing else is changed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Copied from user talk page, Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:26, 26 October 2016 (UTC) ...
- @Boing! said Zebedee:, Thank you, hope you and the other admins go through my words and links. There's a thing in my mind = Golan Heights is no where related to Palestine. Golan Heights is a dispute between Israel and Syria. So, due to a revert conflict with a user on the article Golan Heights I was reported (not notified about it though), fine. But then why was I notified about being banned on articles related to Israel-Palestine conflicts? That's what I'm saying, then why was I even topic banned on first place? The other user was not even warned for the reverts, why just me? Also later I'm blocked (which says under violation of Arab-Israeli conflict topic ban)? Are the administrators gone out of dictionary or it's meanings? Israel-Palestine conflict is something else and Arab-Israel conflict is other, whereas Golan Heights is not even near to the Palestinian territories, lol. If I'm notified on "Israel-Palestine conflict topic ban", the how can I be blocked on violation of "Arab-Israeli conflict topic ban"? It makes no sense to me! The topic ban and even the block makes no sense. I think some admins just want to sandwich me up! I had a headache for no sense. Haha. The revert conflicts could have been solved on the Golan heights talk page (as I already explained the revert conflict in the RED box above) HAHAHA...
- On Golan Heights (this edit in particular), I tried to make the article better, but Attar-Aram syria got involved with me in a revert conflict, after I took it to talk page, I know I was topic banned. On the talk page the user said "Your edit should keep the mentioning of the occupation in the infobox", and in my edit occupation was in the head and in the infobox was the current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds), indeed neutral. I was just revering to get the fact of Purple line on the head of Golan Heights, the other user finally agreed, but continued revert conflict on the infobox on current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds) = to include, occupied by Israel in infobox.
- HAHAHAHAHAHA..... David Aaron talk 10:01, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston (re David Aaron's appeal)
It is unfortunate that the editor's responses show he doesn't understand the ban. If we could be sure he would follow Wikipedia policy in the future the block could be lifted. The ban itself is negotiable, though it can't be lifted by me since the ban was imposed by The Blade of the Northern Lights. The ban is in place due to a concern that he can't neutrally. When a new editor jumps into the hot-button articles right away (such as Golan Heights) and seems unaware that he is acting like a bull in a china shop it causes concern. EdJohnston (talk) 19:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
I find it astonishing that anyone would not realise that the Golan Heights are related to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I consider that ה-זפר was given a lot of support and guidance in how to avoid falling foul of the restriction, and failed to use it to material advantage. The length of his current block seems harsh, as he comes across as Tigger-ish not a WP:RGW warrior, but the restriction appears valid and the violation of the restriction, leading to blocking, unarguable, especially given the thoughtful help offered on his talk page. Guy (Help!) 17:30, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by ANI participant Dennis Brown
I will stay on this side of the line since I participated in the ANI. David seemed to have a great difficulty understanding the previous topic ban, even though it was explained many times. If someone is capable of stringing together coherent ideas into prose, you would expect they are capable of understanding the concept of a topic ban once it is explained more than a few times. As I said there, AGF is not a suicide pact and I find it difficult to believe that David is so thick as to not have understood all along. In short, I don't believe the feigning of ignorance. So was a block and ban justified? Absolutely.
As for the duration, we admin use our best judgement to determine what a consensus of editors would choose, and sometimes we fall short and sometimes overshoot the mark. One year is on the high side, but is within acceptable limits. It is impossible to gauge with any accuracy how long is "long enough", after all. If a consensus here believes a different duration of block is more appropriate, I'm sure EdJohnston would accept that consensus without issue. I support his block, but I'm willing to support anything for at least one month, which I think is grossly insufficient. I strongly prefer at least 90 days for the block, but I'm more concerned with finding consensus and moving on. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:29, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by OID
Golan Heights are not Palestine. If administrators are taking/interpreting the Israel-Palestine case/remedy's to apply to Israel and all Arabs regardless of location under 'broadly construed' then there should probably be a request to amend the case to make this explicit. Thanks Roland for the correction. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:50, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by RolandR
For the benefit of OID above, and in order to clarify any possible misunderstanding, it is worth repeating the outcome of the original arbitration case. By eleven votes to none, the arbitrators found that "The area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted", and by fourteen votes to none they ruled that "All Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted, are placed under discretionary sanctions". There is no possible ambiguity here. RolandR (talk) 10:35, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi
My view as stated at the ANI has not changed: [92] 'You don't understand how Gush Dan (fought over as part of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War), Golan Heights (occupied by Israel after the Six-Day War), and Tel Aviv (one of the most bombed cities in the region) don't fall under the Arab-Isreali conflict?'. Indeed, it was reinforced less than 12 hours later by a follow-up comment: [93] 'I did follow my topic ban by not editing Golan Heights... What I didn't know is that... Golan Heights are related to IL-PS conflict.' Now there is an unexplainable level of confusion in these statements, particularly the latter. Now, clearly WP:CIR is not an issue, as his article creation shows, so I think there must literally be a blind-spot to this specific idea (the TBan). The question then, is how long it will feasibly take him to comprehend the restriction- and that is the length of time the block should run for. How long is a piece of string? But User:The Blade of the Northern Lights' agreement to clarify its parameters will surely help reduce this from a year. Personally I think three months should suffice. If it doesn't, then what will?
- Striking proposal to reduce length of block. Due to the fact that, going by his second statement, ה-זפר seems to be getting mega-lulz out of this. Muffled Pocketed 07:19, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by ה-זפר
Statement by Debresser
If my opinion be know, it is that 1. The initial indefinite topic ban was overkill. Banning all interested editors, or even all POV editors from the IP topic is a bad "solution". The one-year block was also excessive, and clearly punitive. It is not in the interest of this project to ban or block an editor who has shown he can be productive in this area for such an overly long period. WP:AE should be more understanding and use sanctions as a last resort. 2. It is easy to make an edit that is not related to the IP-conflict on a page that is related. We should show some understanding, and not slam people on the wrist for a mistake. Debresser (talk) 19:10, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by ה-זפר
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I agree with the comment by EdJohnston: "It's a puzzling fact that he seems not to understand his ban". Drmies (talk) 17:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Might I suggest that the sanctioning admin actually type out the exact wording for area of conflict from WP:ARBPIA or WP:AC/DS next time? It's not that much longer. T. Canens (talk) 19:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's on me. I stand by the ban, agree I could have been a bit clearer about it; I've gotten a little rusty with AE procedure. No specific comment on the length of the block, but the comments above about the implausibility of understanding the limits of the ban seem spot on. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- The block is fundamentally sound, and I don't think we need to tinker with the block length at this time. We can revisit after three months if a more convincing appeal is presented then. T. Canens (talk) 07:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- To my mind, trying to claim that Golan Heights-related issues aren't covered under WP:ARBPIA is a case of trying to get clever and skirt around something that ought to be very clear. I don't think that trying to find technicalities to get around a sanction is something that should be encouraged. Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:41, 26 October 2016 (UTC).
My very best wishes
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning My very best wishes
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- DrFleischman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBAPDS :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 06:54, 17 October 2016 The first time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of an RfC. Instead of posting something on the talk page, My very best wishes described the perfectly reasonable RfC as "ridiculous" and accused the requestor, EvergreenFir, of using it to stonewall. The irony here is that the one stonewalling was My very best wishes, not EvergreenFir.
- 21:27, 19 October 2016 The second time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of the RfC.
- 09:54, 26 October 2016 The third time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of the RfC. In the edit summary they acknowledged the existence of the RfC. My very best wishes ignored repeated talk page comments that the content should be excluded during the pendancy of the RfC. A pretty clear violation of WP:TALKDONTREVERT.
- 12:19, 26 October 2016 Playing dumb and failing to acknowledge RfC, after AE warning.
- 12:40, 26 October 2016 Refusal to self-revert, and failure to acknowledge that their re-insertions violated our WP:NOCONSENSUS policy.
- 19:58, 27 October 2016 My very best wishes continues to edit war over this material, now re-deleting an {{undue-inline}} tag that flagged the existence of the RfC. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:36, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
17:35, 20 October 2016 (one of many).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
(My apologies if I've messed something up, as this is my first time lodging an AE complaint.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- My very best wishes, the arbitration warning states:
“ | Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit. | ” |
This is what you did, three times. Your primary justification appears to be that you were following some sort of custom to preserve the material being discussed in an RfC. This custom does not "trump" (pardon the pun) active arbitration remedies, especially when you are re-inserting allegations of sexual misconduct in a BLP. I'll also note that WP:RFC states:
“ | Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved. | ” |
--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:14, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- My very best wishes, thank you for pointing out that I did accidentally and technically violate 1RR just now (after filing this complaint) by restoring a dispute tag while the relevant dispute was ongoing. I acknowledge my mistake and have self-reverted--something you have refused to do. As for your suggestion that the RfC be closed, I agree that would help toward resolving the content dispute, but not toward resolving this conduct dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:38, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- I have identified at least 3 verifiable falsehoods in Tataral's statement, but they really bear on the matters not pertinent to this complaint, which is about My very best wishes's conduct, not about my conduct or the content dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- Drmies, Lankiveil, and Guy, I think some of you (at least Drmies) have misunderstood this complaint. I'm not screaming BLP violation, I'm saying that Mvbw clearly and flagrantly violated the arbitration remedy that provides: "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." Mvbw and I have a disagreement about content, which is being hashed out on the talk page. The difference between my behavior and theirs is that I have used only the talk page and tagging to "stick to my guns" whereas they have repeatedly re-reverted the same content without consensus, in violation of active arbitration remedies, to stick to theirs. One is the right way to edit DS articles and the other is not. I'm puzzled that you're so quick to excuse such behavior on one of the most visible and contentious articles in the encyclopedia - one that was basically what DS was designed to manage. Drmies, I'm also surprised at your uncharacteristically un-AGF comment. If you look at the entirety of my contributions to Donald Trump you'll see that I've taken all sides, sometimes with Mvbw and sometimes against, and I have nothing against them beyond that they have behaved disruptively in this particular dispute and have set a very poor example for less experienced editors. I have to be honest, this smacks of favoritism toward the long-timers, even if unintended. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning My very best wishes
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by My very best wishes
In the first diff of complaint I refer (edit summary) to this unhelpful RfC request closed by an administrator. I obviously did not mean user EvergreenFir in this edit summary. I meant other users.
An administrator who closed this request also opened another RfC that was a lot more helpful. Here is version of the page which existed at the moment of posting this RfC by admin. The content under discussion in the RfC was the last paragraph in the introduction. Strictly speaking, this paragraph should not be modified during standing RfC until it is closed. However, I do agree that the initial version of this paragraph was POVish, and it evolved to another, more neutral version, one that I have restored here (3rd diff in complaint).
I think this latest version is fine and should remain, possibly in this, even more neutral version. However, if the RfC will be properly closed with conclusion to remove, I am very much willing to agree with consensus. But the RfC is still open, and there is no consensus to remove this material from intro. I fully explained my edits here and here. Nevertheless, the filer decided to go ahead with this complaint. Why? If am wrong here, please explain, and I will try to improve. Note that I discussed this subject on article talk page.
As a note of order, the US politics is not an area of my major interest, and I did not receive a formal warning about discretionary sanctions in this area, although I know about these sanctions. My very best wishes (talk) 22:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- A constructive suggestion. Could an uninvolved admin look at this RfC and close it please, one way or another. End of story. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. Note that DrFleischman just threatened to report yet another user on WP:AE [94] and ... violated 1RR rule on this page [95],[96] (note that both his edits are restoration of "content challenged by reversion" he complains about here). DrFleischman is well aware of the 1RR restriction on this page, but refused to comply [97]. Note that I made only three edits on this page during a week. My very best wishes (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- DrFleschman now self-reverted, but asked other users (edit summary) to continue edit warring on his behalf. I tried to explain him that he acted inappropriately, but without any success. My very best wishes (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
@James J. Lambden. After reading comments on the RfC, it appears that most people agree with this edit by Awilley. His text is similar to that in my last edit on this page. I think this text actually reflects consensus on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
@James J. Lambden.
- No, this is wrong count by you. Most people on the RfC agreed that at least one phrase should be included in intro.
- Even if I made mistakes, I corrected them later - see my last diff which places essentially same content as was previously placed by admin based on his reading of comments on very same RfC;
- I think some participants around here are gaming the rules by removing everything they do not like to claim "hey, you can not place this back as something I challenged by reversion",
- I think my editing of BLP pages is generally fine (I had no a single warning for this);
- This is all beyond the point because I am not going back into this mess per suggestion by Lankeveil. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
- @EtienneDolet and James J. Lambden. Yes, I have some interest in US politics, but this is not an area of my main interest. Why do you see it as a problem? My very best wishes (talk) 01:39, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Athenean. I think my involvement in the area of US politics is generally constructive. I discuss these issues a lot prior to making any edits. Here are my most recent edits in article space [98] - very few of them are in the area of US politics. Here are my edits in article talk space [99] - most of them are US-related discussions. If I removed or reverted something in this subject area, that has been extensively discussed on article talk page (including my participation) and at least some other users agreed with my changes. My very best wishes (talk) 04:39, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
@Lankeveil. I agree to leave this topic area voluntarily for a couple of weeks, no problem. P.P.S. I do have an opinion about this election, but it's not anything original and was nicely explained by many political commentators like here. My very best wishes (talk) 14:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Tataral
If I'm not mistaken, User:DrFleischman has made at least 3 reverts during the last 24 hours in violation of 1RR. It is somewhat amusing that this user, DrFleischman, who is engaging in revert warring and battleground behaviour to such an extent, threatens to file frivolous reports over the same issue against one editor after another (who unlike him haven't edit warred and who have made only one edit during a whole week reinstating the stable and consensus-supported version) when he doesn't get it his way. When someone claims everyone else is wrong, it's usually the other way round.
When reading the talk page in its entirety, after 2 weeks of discussion, it is clear based on policy-based arguments that there is consensus to include a brief mention of the controversy, in the form of the wording that has been stable for quite some time now. Numerous editors have presented sound policy-based arguments (summed up nicely by JasperTECH under the heading "My comment copied from below") in favour of its inclusion, at least in the form of a brief mention (as is currently the case), but on the other hand there is a case to be made that consensus is against including a whole paragraph on it, as was originally the case. The current two-sentence wording is much shorter than the original paragraph, and also a lot more neutral, and is really a compromise and the result of painstaking work by many editors to find an acceptable, neutral and WP:DUE wording that complies with the BLP policy to the maximum extent possible. If User:DrFleischman disagrees with it, he should seek consensus on the talk page instead of revert-warring or trying to bully other editors. --Tataral (talk) 11:49, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by James J. Lambden
Nowhere in My very best wishes's response do I see a link to any discussion showing consensus to include the text he restored. Did I miss it?
His comment above is also dubious:
- "As a note of order, the US politics is not an area of my major interest"
He made a similar comment a few days ago on the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016 talk page:
- "I usually do not edit US politics and have more or less fresh eyes here"
Yet, examining his recent contributions I see he's involved in the following articles:
- Donald Trump
- Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations
- 2016 US Russian cyber conflict
- WikiLeaks
- Clinton Foundation
- List of Donald Trump presidential campaign endorsements, 2016
- List of Hillary Clinton presidential campaign endorsements, 2016
- Donald Trump and Billy Bush recording controversy
- Hillary Rodham cattle futures controversy
Now I'm just a simple caveman but the Hillary Rodham cattle futures controversy seems like a relatively obscure topic for someone not very interested in American politics.
It will be interesting to compare editors' responses in this request to their responses in Anythingyouwant's request above, since they involve the same bit of text in the same article. James J. Lambden (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
@My very best wishes: You say: "I think this text actually reflects consensus on the page." Let's see:
On Oct 17 the RFC asking whether the existing coverage ("Allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump were widely reported in the weeks before the election.") was sufficient stood at:
- Yes: 5
- No: 5 (one of those saying it should only be expanded to include Trump's counterclaims)
- Maybe/Comment: 3
You expanded it to a paragraph shortly after, including a poorly-sourced claim of "child rape" (diff #1)
On Oct 20 the RFC asking whether the allegations should be included in the lede and to what extent stood at:
- Yes/short or one sentence: 2
- Yes/more than short or one sentence: 9
- No: 11
Based on that you restored a full paragraph (diff #2)
On Oct 26 the same RFC stood at:
- Yes/short or one sentence: 4
- Yes/more than short or one sentence: 13
- No: 13
Based on that you restored a 3-sentence description (diff #3)
Comments addressing potential BLP violations are I believe misguided - the relevant policy (as DrFleischman specifies in his complaint) is WP:ARBAPDS:
- All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.
In each of these instances consensus was not just absent but against the multiple-sentence description restored by My very best wishes.
My own opinion (as far as BLP) is that a single restoration of a poorly-sourced child rape claim, against consensus, in a highly visible BLP and an area covered by discretionary sanctions is grounds for a permanent ban from BLPs. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (Schmarnnintelligenz)
I came here feeling invited via a link posted by DrFleischmann to Talk:Donald Trump#Addition of sexual misconduct content to lead section while RfC is ongoing, take 2 and am really astonished reading this (not all tl;dr;) and just wanted to leave this comment: While working on some of the current politics articles I saw the name DrFleischman really often - and often reverting other users. Then suddenly he placed a warning on my usertalk although I had strictly followed the 1RR rule prominently displayed on the Trump article, so I looked a bit more what he was doing and to me several edits look like breaching the 1RR or "avoiding" it by using just other words. Also in my eyes DrFleischman is very skillful on talkpages interpreting disagreements towards the solutions he wants to achieve, often by accusing fellow contributors of not adhering to the guidelines, also often by positive, constructive language. In the Difflinks provided I don't see [My very best wishes] acting against the rules, just editing with similar means like DrFleischman. Perhaps both could agree to both adhere more to our giudelines and look more friendly for consensus while accepting that consensus is not always "what I want" and that consensus is fluent and not only the "powerusers" here have valid arguments. My suggestion would be: Close this here and Keep calm and focus on content, folks :-) --SI 17:38, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by EtienneDolet
@Lankiveil: and @JzG: and to all the other admins involved in this case. There's a lot of misleading claims here that My very best wishes regularly employs in order to excuse himself when the going gets tough. Just two months ago, in this case, Mvbw was quick to say that he was actually interested in American politics to excuse himself from tag-team edit-warring charges piled against him. Here is exactly what Mvbw said at the tag-teaming accusations against him:
If it helps, I promise never look at the editing history of VM in the future, even though this is not forbidden by policy. That however, does not guarantee that I will not appear on the same pages as him, because we have a significant overlap of interest, including US politics.
To clarify matters further, he also said the following in response to Softlavender's concerns that the tag-team edit-warring was spreading to different topic areas:
@Softlavender. Even if I was not interested in these subjects (yes, they are actually interesting to me), but only wanted to improve content as a generally disinterested contributor, that still would be OK.
And indeed, there's this stark comment here:
It was only very recently that the ongoing presidential campaign in US brought my attention. This is something highly unusual and therefore interesting to me.
So it's one form of the truth when he's under fire with one accusation, but it's another form of truth under another. Apparently, it's an all too familiar pattern of playing dumb when it comes to not only editing at mainspace (as exemplified by DrFleischman), but even as he defends himself as well. All in all, it's quite deceptive towards admins that haven't known this user's history and apparent pattern of disingenuous handling of his affairs. As for Mvbw's editing pattern, I'm surprised this user is not banned for this edit alone. As I am also surprised that he wasn't banned for this. I mean, there's a pretty strong pattern here of treating the articles of people he doesn't like with a sly attempt to destroy them, either by undermining the consensus building process to make them better, or to directly add material that would undermine the article altogether. I suggest the admins look beyond this report and seriously consider the long pattern of problematic behavior this user has be accused of doing. It's the only way of truly grasping the extent of the concerning behavior this user has caused in the project. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Athenean
I'm frankly amazed My very best wishes hasn't been topic banned from US politics articles already. At Donald Trump in particular, all he does is edit war [100]. The rape diff alone is especially disturbing and grounds for a ban just by itself. He is edit-warring to reinstate extremely defamatory, poorly sourced material to the lede of a high visibility BLP article. for crying out loud. Can anyone think of something worse? Because I can't. Drmies' special pleading that it was a "setup" is baffling. Users are fully responsible for their edits, and Mvbw is a veteran contributor. Especially in hot articles like Donald Trump, all users should be extra careful with their edits. The conspiratorial suggestion that he was somehow "set up" is simply mind boggling.
As someone else has pointed out, for someone who disingenuously claims to "not be interested in American politics articles", he sure edit wars a lot [101] [102] [103] [104]. In fact that's pretty much all he does in this topic. Content building is virtually zilch. Talk pages are mainly used for obfuscation and deception instead of trying to resolve disagreements in good faith. For example here is demanding users not edit the article until the RfC is closed [105] (but he himself has no problem re-adding controversial material on Donald Trump even though an RfC on the material is ongoing), deliberately misconstruing RfC results ([106]), wikilawyering about when 1RR applies [107], the list goes on.
Which brings us to what is arguably the most disruptive aspect of Mvbw's editing: the active use of deception. Mvbw frequently plays dumb (e.g. pretending not to notice an RfC is ongoing) even though he knows full well what is going on. Rules and guidelines are selectively misquoted and manipulated as desired. This shows great contempt for the wikipedia community and its processes.
Finally, I would also like to disabuse everyone here of the naive notion that Mvbw's disruption in this topic area will magically cease after Nov. 8. As anyone who is familiar with him knows, Mvbw's raison d'etre on wikipedia is a deep and abiding Putinophobia. This is why he edit wars to remove any material that reflects negatively on Clinton [108] [109] and her people [110] [111] using absurd, mocking edit summaries ("not every cold deserves mention", "petty details", "RfC not closed", etc...) and edit wars to reinstate any material that reflects negatively on Trump (the more defamatory the better). Reliable sources and wikipedia process mean nothing; it's all about the mission. Regardless of who wins, I can guarantee the chance of Mvbw abandoning these articles after election day is zilch.
Considering the lack of positive contribs, and the disruption wrought, I can't think of a single reason why this topic area benefits from Mvbw's presence. Athenean (talk) 00:40, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Result concerning My very best wishes
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- It is hard to escape the suggestion that this is a setup, and some commentators confirm that. The worst in all this is the inclusion of the "rape" phrase--but that's only in the very first diff. Another editor (Steeletrap, if I remember correctly) used that word on another Trump-related article (can't find which one right now) and I warned them not to do that again--perhaps My very best etc. saw that warning. Moreover, that content was there before the RfC started, so whether removal or reinsertion is the disruptive bit remains to be seen--in other words, what the B is in BRD, for instance. And so what we have is three reinsertions over the course of a week, the first one of which with what I consider a serious BLP violation, but the second ones without that mistake. Now, when exactly which RfC was started and when what content was in, that's less interesting than other matters here: there is no BLP exception (except for in the first, already mentioned and not repeated edit), and the content itself is better documented than the recent effort to land something on Mars. Now, someone inserts that rape shit again, me and a bunch of others will be happy to block on the spot. You want a sentence instead of three sentences on this content, that's fine--but you wait until the RfC is closed before you go to AE, because--again--while one may argue it is undue, it is very hard to see it as a BLP violation. So, this AE request certainly proves that My very best sticks to their guns, as does Dr. Fleischman--good for both of you. It also proves that every single case here has the potential of becoming a lithmus test, which is why James Lambden should really withdraw from this subject matter, since they seem to be incapable of treating any Trump-related conflict as just an editorial conflict, not as some matter of life and death. Drmies (talk) 01:53, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
- I might be sympathetic to the comments about the RFC being "used for stonewalling" if it were ridiculous and heading for the snowball clause, but I see a perfectly reasonable question with no clear consensus either way. The user should not have re-inserted this material while the discussion was under way. I'm not sure this rises to a level where sanctions need to be considered (assuming the problematic edits are not repeated), but it might be best if MVBW were to leave this topic area voluntarily for a couple of weeks, which I assume will not be a problem given that it is "not an area of ... major interest". As for the 1RR breach by User:DrFleischman; it is there but given that the user has voluntarily self-reverted I don't see anything to be gained by throwing the book at them. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC).
- Meh. The election is weeks away and the candidates both highly divisive, anyone expecting calm and measured editing is delusional. Long-time Wikipedians would be best off showing everyone else a bit of class and following WP:BRD with emphasis on the D, but this specific case is in the end a content matter where reasonable people may differ. Perhaps a slap with the WP:TROUT and move on. Guy (Help!) 23:22, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
LouisAragon
Premature given lack of substantive effots at resolving the content dispute at its core. Guy (Help!) 00:53, 31 October 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning LouisAragon
LouisAragon has been pushing a Persian nationalist POV for quite some time now. When editing Armenian articles, LouisAragon often removes the Armenian foreign language alternate name and replaces it with Persian. When he simply can't do that, he places Armenian as the last language mentioned. When it comes to Iran's neighborhood, it is Iran that comes first, even if there's not much relevance to Iranian culture today. Take for example the edits at Urartu. LouisAragon removes the Armenian name, replaces it with Persian, even though there's absolutely no indication in the article about Urartu's significance to modern day Iranian culture and identity. Yet, on the other hand, there's entire sections devoted to Urartu's notable role in the development of Armenian culture, language, kingdoms, and its identity at large. Yet, it's Armenian that gets removed. This is a repeated pattern in almost every Armenian article he touches. I must also add that it's not limited to Armenia. Azerbaijani and Kurdish (as far as I can see) articles suffer a similar fate. Stuff like this is deeply concerning (i.e. removing the Kurdish alternate name of a province named Kurdistan). I mean, in other words, if we are to leave LouisAragon to his own devices, I'm afraid articles pertaining to countries that neighbor Iran or have a shared history with Iranians would be forced to conform to the will of this user's apparent pro-Iranian POV. I must add that this pattern is an old one. His edits on AA2 articles prior to his warning show a clear resemblance to his edits above, such as the removal of any mention of Armenians as European ([114][115][116][117][118][119][120][121]) and attempting to turn Armenian kings into Iranian ([122][123][124][125][126][127]), the latter being reminiscent of his recent edits on Armenian king articles. LouisAragon had also made several tongue in cheek personal insults such as Incompetent pov pushers, fanboy, POV pusher, incompetent people, and ignorant. It's an all too familiar pattern that shouldn't be ignored anymore. I think strictures are necessary.
Discussion concerning LouisAragonStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LouisAragon1) "removes Armenian language name claiming it wasn't part of ancient Armenia, even though the article says it was historically inhabited by Armenians" 2) "removes Armenian language and background from dynasty that ruled Armenia, along with source for it" 3) "removes relevant Armenian category for no given reason" 4) "removes links to Armenians article with no talk or consensus"
5) "Stuff like this is deeply concerning (i.e. removing the Kurdish alternate name of a province named Kurdistan)." 6) "Take for example the edits at Urartu. LouisAragon removes the Armenian name, replaces it with Persian." 7) "places the Persian name first. Pretty nasty edit-summary too." 8) "removes Armenian name and replaces it with Persian, even though it's located in Armenia." 9) " removes all those named Yervand (Armenian version of Orontes) at the Yervand article." 10) "removes Armenian language name and any mention of Armenia from lead" 11) "removes an academic source saying dynasty origins are unknown and could be Armenian and/or Iranian, then nitpicks a source that says only Iranian, then deleting the rest" 16 July 2016 (before I edited that part); "Little is known about the origins of the Orontid dynasty.[5] Some historians believe that the Orontid kings were of Urartian origin.[6][failed verification] Other historians, however, believe the dynasty may have been of Iranian origin.[7]" 18 October 2016 (what EtienneDolet changed it to, and removed numerous of its sources, and added numerous new/other sources to it); "Little is known about the origins of the Orontid dynasty.[4][5][6] Some historians believe that the Orontid kings were of Armenian or Urartian origin.[4][7][6] In addition, historians believe the dynasty may have had Iranian origin through a possible relation to the Achaemenids, either through marriage or blood.[4][8]" 12) "removes Armenian language and Armenian name" 13) "edit-warring over moving the Armenian name to the end. Edit-wars to maintain his edit and doesn't go to the TP" 14) "Indefinitely blocked twice previously, despite getting unblocked per WP:ROPE the first time" 15) [144] 15) [145] 16) [146] 17) [147] 18) [148] 19) "and attempting to turn Armenian kings into Iranian"
Regarding these diffs (Incompetent pov pushers, fanboy, POV pusher, incompetent people, and ignorant), they were perhaps a tad over the top as a referral, I will admit, and it was definetely not correct of me. However, the first four were directed towards a CheckUser blocked serial sock abuser, who is severely disrupting this project for a long period of time,[151][152] and, not meant to justify my own acts, but its not as if I'm the only editor who has ever made such referrals to sockpuppets/sockmasters. By far in fact. I can link several diffs of admins as well who have made such kind of referrals. The last referral pertained to another editor who I linked some time ago, and who even though I made a section on his own talk page to settle the dispute, as well as on the talk page of the template in question, ignored both, yet continued to revert/edit-war.
Statement by KouhiAs an uninvolved editor, I believe LouiseAragon is fully right and those spellings were unrelated to the articles and they should be removed again. Unfortunately, many Armenian, Azerbaijani and Kurdish nationalists add unrelated spellings to the articles and this is only for propaganda/political reasons. These spellings are useless and unimportant from an encyclopedic/historical point of view and are pretty much useless for readers. For example, in the Urartu article, Modern Armenian spelling is fully irrelevant and useless, because first, they didn't use Modern Armenian alphabet to write their names, and second, the name is not supported by any primary source, most likely Armenians themselves borrowed that name from English, thus, Armenian spelling is insignificant from a historical POV, the same way Japanese spelling is insignificant for that article. But Old Persian spelling is relevant and could be mentioned in the article, because Old Persian name is mentioned in Behistun inscription and it is very important and significant from a historical/encyclopedic point of view and many scholars/readers need to know about the Old Persian spelling. Armenian, Azerbaijani and Kurdish nationalists try their bests to add these unrelated spellings to those articles because they want to connect themselves with those civilizations/kingdoms. Those users are using Wikipedia just for nationalist propaganda and everybody should fight with those users. For example, in the Seljuk Empire article, there's a long history of adding unrelated Turkish spelling, while Seljuks 1) didn't speak Modern Turkish language 2) didn't write their names with Latin alphabet 3) Modern Turkish spelling is not mentioned in any primary source and it is completely a made-up spelling. Same goes to Modern Persian spelling with Perso-Arabic alphabet and Sasanian Empire and Parthian Empire articles, those empires didn't use Perso-Arabic alphabet and Modern Persian spelling is irrelevant to those articles. But Greek spelling is relevant to Parthian Empire for example, because it was their official language. LouiseAragon is a very helpful in fighting with those nationalist/disruptive users who try to misuse Wikipedia for their propaganda. -- Kouhi (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by TiptoethrutheminefieldI want to say exactly the same here as for the EtienneDolet case. I think it is unfortunate that these two editors, who I have found contribute a lot of valuable content to articles, edit neutrally, and who actually know about the subjects they edit, have come into conflict in this way - I urge them to think whether there are really differences substantial enough for these two cases to be here. I don't see justification for a claim that "LouisAragon has been pushing a Persian nationalist POV for quite some time now". In fact I would find it hard to believe accusations of sustained deliberate pov editing aims against either editor, and am disturbed that either editor would seriously want the other sanctioned. BTW, here is an example of LouisAragon doing the exact opposite of what a "Persian nationalist POV" would perhaps want [[155]], deleting material that argues to mention populations outside of Persia. I wish the issue of alternative names was clearer in Wikipedia article policies, it's going to always be a conflict-initiating issue until it is made clearer. I think both editors have become a bit careless with their editing and their reverting and their lack of use of talk on articles that they both know attract pov edit warring - they can get away with doing this when it just concerns pov editors, but not when it involves the two of them because each would naturally expect more consideration and respect. For example, EtienneDolet brings up the issue of LouisAragon's edit here [156], LouisAragon, in his point 9, says he did not contest its revert and essentially says he did the original edit without properly reading the content. It shows carelessness, and the result of that carelessness was edit warring by pov IP editors who continued to repeat [157], [158], [159] the edit made by LouisAragon. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by CplakidasI second Tiptoethrutheminefield's comments and sentiment. I have worked with both editors involved, and at no point did I get the impression I was dealing with hardened POV-warriors. LouisAragon in particular, with whom I have interacted the most, is interested in Iranian history, but bases his edits on sources and takes care to follow WP:VERIFY and WP:OR. I am inclined to believe that this is simply a case where bad motives have been attributed to him simply because these topic areas are indeed bedeviled by users and IPs who act out of bad faith. I cannot fault LouisAragon's reasoning, as he explained it, on the removal of Armenian names in the cases above; indeed this is often used as a sort of "tagging" of articles and "claiming" them for a specific modern nation, and I too have been forced to remove such cases, e.g. in Basil I. From the evidence above, I can fault LouisAragon for the edit war the Erivan Khanate, where he did not follow WP:BRD, but EtienneDolet did not do so either, and I suspect most editors are "guilty" of such behaviour now and then. Also, I don't see any evidence of attempts at discussing these edits beforehand, either at an article talk page or at the user's own talk page, before going to the nuclear option of WP:AE. Summing up, both sides to this need to calm down and start talking to each other, rather than throwing AE block requests at one another. Constantine ✍ 07:14, 28 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Kansas Bear
Yet LouisAragon has on numerous occasions posted on my talk page for my opinion on sources, reliability, wording, etc. Not exactly the actions of a "Persian nationalist". As for the "several tongue in cheek personal insults", lets look at the facts:
I am curious. What is this really about? Restoring Steverci's(including socks) edits? Getting revenge for LA's comments about Steverci? It would appear to be more about Steverci's edits, LouisAragon's opinion of Steverci, and the continuing the edit warring POV Steverci and his sockpuppets started. Just an FYI, on the usage of non-historians(Todd B. Krause, John A.C. Greppin, and Jonathan Slocum are linguists not historians) to push a POV, isn't this exactly what EtienneDolet is accusing LouisAragon of doing?[163] Sorry, but why should 3 linguists be given more weight than N. Garosian(Phd. Medieval history) and Richard G. Hovannisian(Phd History, professor emeritus at the University of California), and then call it "Restoring neutral version. Many historians emphasize that the origins of the Orontid dynasty is unclear."? Such editing is quite disingenuous. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:08, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning LouisAragon
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EtienneDolet
Not actionable. Recycling valuable edits from a sockpuppet isn't a sanctionable offense, and that seems to be a large portion of the claims here. While we often revert socks, it isn't required. Removing article content in good faith is part of editing. The wikihounding claims are not proven by virtue of you both editing the same content. Lastly, admin are asked to please stay on topic. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:43, 29 October 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning EtienneDolet
This'll suffice for a start in this section; Reinstating material by a CU blocked sockmaster + his sockpuppets on a definite structural basis
Wikihouding Blatantly removing sources + quotes + sourced content
Apparantly hasn't (?) received one in the past 12 months, but he posted one himself on someone else's talk page just some days ago, so I believe that he's still aware of them.
It is very easy to make good edits on low-profile articles, as they say. It is also very easy to make bad ones, to POV-push deliberately, to knowingly follow an "unjust" agenda (e.g. protecting socks, removing sources by illegitimate means). I think the Steverci-EtienneDolet alliance™, as illustrated above, speaks on itself. Imagine you combine such a pattern with "nice words", a pretty polite overal behaviour as well, and write in proper English; you can actually get quite far and remain unnoticed. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning EtienneDoletStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by EtienneDoletSteverci was a disruptive user and his/her socks have continued that path. I would never advocate replicating that user's behavior on this project. However, I believe some of the edits that the socks have made actually improved these articles. A lot of these diffs are really old, so I will comment upon some of the recent stuff. LouisAragon's recent diffs involves him restoring text that uses the word "terrorist group" to describe ASALA. Now, I do believe that LouisAragaon made this edit in good faith when dealing with a sock, but the sock was right in removing that word (per WP:TERRORIST). That is why I reverted Louis. There's many other similar examples including this where the Armenian Genocide Wikilink was replaced with Armenian deportation. Or the restoring of WP:SCAREQUOTES around the word "Genocide" in this edit. I even pointed this out in my edit-summary here and mentioned that I do not question LouisAragon's good faith in reverting such a disruptive sock. So there's times that these articles show up on my watchlist and I do revert to more neutral and improved versions, whether or not they are disruptive socks. But this is far from an "alliance". As for the other edits, they're really old and involved removing copyright material. That issue has long been handled at the talk page of those corresponding articles. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:32, 27 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by TiptoethrutheminefieldI think it is unfortunate that these two editors, who I have found contribute a lot of valuable content to articles, edit neutrally, and who actually know about the subjects they edit, have come into conflict in this way - I urge them to think whether there are really differences substantial enough for these two cases to be here. I wonder if the basis of the conflict is that they each actually know too much about the subjects they are editing and are suspecting the other of the sort of pov motives that they know is widespread in those subject areas. Any editor can take ownership of a blocked editor's deleted posts by reinstating them. It is not a sanctionable act. I do not support the removal of posts made by socks just because they were made by socks. I think the actual value of the material needs to be examined first. Looking back, I find many of Steverci's edits, and those of his presumed socks Oatitonimly, etc., to be reasonable - so it is not unexpected that another editor would reinstate them if the only reason they were removed was for SP reasons. LouisAragon definitely has been deleting content for SP reasons alone, resulting in good content being deleted and seriously bad content being restored, such as here [209]. There is no inverted commas Armenian Genocide controversy, and such terminology is an inadmissible euphemism for denial of the Armenian Genocide. I fully support EtienneDolet's edit there and I would have done exactly the same. This edit removed an edit by SP Hyrudagon [210] but the removal added a load of nonsense. Pharasmanes I was not a king of Georgia, there is no such thing as "Georgian paganism", Iberia is not Georgia, and the writings of Tacitius are not equivalent to those of modern-era historians when deciding on events. I fully support EtienneDolet's edit there [211] and I would have done exactly the same. I am also no fan of a flippant claiming of wikihounding; it distorts the actual meaning of Wikihounding. Both these editors edit in the same subject areas so they can be expected to come into contact. Despite the views of Drmies (who has encouraged and even prompted such distortions), there is nothing wrong in looking at editing histories to see where active editing is going on, and then going there. Doing it is not wikihounding. Every now and again I look at the editing histories of both LouisAragon and EtienneDolet - which is why I know about this case. Editing histories are public - anyone who doesn't like that shouldn't edit. I don't think anything EtienneDolet has done comes anywhere even close to the definitions or characteristics of Wikihounding. In other words, two out of the three diff sections set down by LouisAragon in his complaint are listing edits that actually did not break any policies. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by AtheneanI agree with Tiptoe's assessment of the situation. I don't see anything objectionable in the diffs. A certain amount of contact is to be expected between editors whose interests overlap, but EtienneDolet is careful not to edit-war. Moreover the diffs are stale and the issues raised have been dealt in the past. On the other hand, I find an admin taunting someone they have blocked in the past about their block extremely unbecoming. Made worse that it is done at a WP:AE case. Athenean (talk) 00:56, 29 October 2016 (UTC) Result concerning EtienneDolet
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Wecarlisle
Premature for AE. Handled as a conventional administrative issue, short block issued by Bishonen. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:01, 28 October 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Wecarlisle
Repeated violation of 1RR by adding info that's being discussed on an RFC with serious BLP concerns.
Discussion concerning WecarlisleStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by WecarlisleStatement by (username)Statement by MandrussI posted this on their user talk page 47 minutes before item 2 above. Seems very straightforward. WP:CIR, especially in this situation. If this wasn't a case for a quick DS block, I don't know what would be. So I don't why we're here instead of WP:ANI. Still learning. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:27, 28 October 2016 (UTC) Result concerning Wecarlisle
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Ihardlythinkso
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Ihardlythinkso
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:57, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBAPDS
The article in question is subject to 1RR. log. diff.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- - October 31, 2016 2nd Revert
- - October 31, 2016 1st Revert (falsely asserts WP:BLPREMOVE)
- - October 29, 2016 2nd Revert (falsely asserts WP:BLPREMOVE)
- - October 29, 2016 1st Revert (falsely asserts WP:BLPREMOVE)
- - October 25, 2016 Revert of the same material. Falsely asserts BLP
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on August 2, 2016 by Lord Roem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
- Warned - July 20, 2016
- Warned - October 29, 2016 (The warning was completely ignored).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
IHTS routinely ignores consensus, makes false appeals to policy, and attacks those who disagree with him. As evidenced by the particular edit that he is pushing and the relevant talk page section: talk:Donald Trump#Capacity for groping and forcibly kissing women, it appears that he is carrying on where a recently-topic-banned user left off.
He is not above insulting other users who disagree with him. In this case, MelanieN: [212] [213] [214]
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Ihardlythinkso
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Ihardlythinkso
I removed misleading & erroneous text indicating Trump said he *did grope* [a woman/women], when he merely asserted on the tape that he could get away with doing so if he wanted to by virtue of his star status. (An enormous difference. The former is tantamount to putting in the BLP subject's mouth that he confessed to committing potential criminal act[s], something only imagined or contrived/fictionalized by presumably hateful political detractors. A little objectivity for what he said, please. As thoughtful, conscientious WP editor it was/is my duty to immediately remove.) Thank u. IHTS (talk) 22:38, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Ihardlythinkso
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This seems stale, but that's unambiguous edit warring and WP:CRYBLP so I could be persuaded that this is another one for the post-Dec 1 restriction as per Anythingyouwant. Guy (Help!) 22:02, 31 October 2016 (UTC)