Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. You are not autoconfirmed, meaning you cannot currently edit this page. Instead, use /Non-autoconfirmed posts. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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User:Deuterium

This user's userpage, [1], is basically just an attack on group of editors that he has a problem with. I think this is rather inappropriate. Also this user has twice placed this propaganda website [2] in the The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy article. I think he may just be unfamilar with wikiquette so I think he should just recieve a warning, but since I have been involved in a conflict with him I'm sure I would appear to have ulterior motives if I warned him.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh. Only the vandals and the admins try to use policy, and he's certainly no admin. But Jayjg was perfectly justified in using WP:RS to delete the blog link, so I can't see what Deut's real problem is Sceptre ^(Talk) 11:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sceptre. Please see Talk:Anti-Arabism for a discussion about that blog; it's by a well-known professional journalist, which is allowed by WP:RS. JayJG is now arguing it violates WP:EL. I wonder what's next? Deuterium 06:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course it violates both WP:RS and WP:EL. Blogs should only be linked to in highly specific circumstances which this doesn't meet. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Moshe, as you can see from the page, I'm not making personal attacks; I'm factually commentating on content in a civil manner, which is specifically condoned by WP:NPA.

Furthermore, lying about an editor (by saying I had twice included IRMEP in that page, when I have _never_ done so, check the history) _is_ a violation of WP:CIV. This is exactly the reason why I am keeping track of this kind of stuff :). Deuterium 06:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah but the attack pages are not factual, and you have even now accused another editor of "lying", which is yet another violation of WP:CIVIL. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Besides the hit list like nature of his user page, this user has also created a page including my name User:Deuterium/Timothy Usher for the sole purpose of attacking me. I ask that this page be deleted as soon as possible, and this user - almost certainly another sock puppet of sock puppeteer Hrana98/24.7.141.159/216.118.97.211 - be banned.

Also note his recent "minor edits" after he's been caught.Timothy Usher 07:03, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

It's disappointing to see that you haven't stopped attack people critical of your position. I encourage the editors here to look up my IP address so we can settle this once and for all. 128.97.248.132 17:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

My mistake for not signing in. Hrana98 17:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The strongest evidence for the identity of these users is a shared discourse, common themes and a common style. This will be obvious to anyone with the free time and the stomach to read through Talk:Islamism/Archive 4. Just one among a good number of obvious and telling examples:

24.7.141.159: “It seems like s/he has a knowledge gap and an unwillingness to read the previous discussion on point s/he is bringing up.”[[3]]

128.97.247.141: “It seems like you have a knowledge gap that needs to close before we can have a productive conversation.”[[4]]

Another:

24.7.141.159: “...Have a good day.” [5]

128.97.247.141: “...Have a good day.” [6]

The second is, like the Hrana log-in as seen on this page, a UCLA address which, by my admittedly meagre technical understanding, I would guess is the user operating through a proxy server (such as the one provided to access restricted library materials?) from his home cable account. Just a thought. I don't understand these things well enough to say what is going on technically, but from the standpoint of style and discourse, it's clear that this is the same individual.

Deuterium shares all the observed points of style and affects the same mean-spirited and domineering troll-like approach, and in two of three examples he gives of my own purported misbehavior, he is carrying User:24.7.141.159's water. Timothy Usher 07:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is interesting to observe that User:Hrana98 has arrived on this page without being notified by User:Deuterium on the talk page that the discussion is going on here. Pecher ^Talk 07:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been monitoring Timothy Usher's talk page knowing he has a bone to pick with me. The logical thing was to follow Tom's postings on Timothy's talk page. Furthermore, reading Pecher's talk page also made it clear where to go. It lead me here. ALT + F and typing my user name alerted me to this post. I'll continue to monitor these pages as long as both of your are prosecuting your little war. Hrana98 09:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I did a little research by geolocating the IP address presented via the database at HostIP. Its not surprising that I'm in Los Angeles. Library computers on campus require a user login and that should clearly alert you to my status on campus. User:24.7.141.159 is located in Sacramento, CA. User:216.118.97.211 is located in Middletown, IA. Are both of you (Pecher and Timothy Usher) saying that I'm traveling around the country and I'm these two people and User:Deuterium? If you are, then either I'm a schizoid nut with a private jet and tons of time on my hand or, more plausibly, both of you are being paranoid and fueling troll-like attacks upon me. I only say this because both of you have been resorting to attacks on me in hope of having me banned. Hrana98 10:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

As you are aware, UCLA has a set of restricted library materials accessible to students, staff and associates by logging in from one's home address, at which point you get a UCLA proxy address and go from there. Please excuse me if my technical terms are somehow inaccurate. As for 216.118.97.211 his style is nothing like your own excepting the hostility - blocked after second post - but the user's edit history shows that two of four posts [[7]], [[8]] were done unambiguously on your behalf, while a third [[9]]was to hide the observation that this address was acting as your sock puppet. I concede it's possible that this is only an associate of yours (as you claimed when you said re the earlier 216.118.97.211 comment that the page was "being monitored on an outside forum" [[10]]), but even so it's disturbing that you should solicit such edits from your associates.Timothy Usher 10:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It is 3:30 in the morning, do you honestly expect me to sit on campus at this hour or am I not allowed to come home to rest and sleep according to you? Are you going to point me to a Wikipedia policy page to defend this illogical position? Furthermore, Sacramento, CA is 400 miles north of here. Are you saying that I commute to campus every morning via a 400 mile journey? Middletown, IA is 1,800 miles away. Are you now claiming that I'm making that journey nightly too? Give me a break. Maybe you should also claim that I've figured out how to build a Star Trek transporter now so we can revise the wikipedia article on this development. You should also remember that just because someone agrees with or defends me is not an associate of mine. I've never solicited anyone to defend me. Yet, I find it alarming to see that a large number of Administrators have been contacted on your behalf to fight your battles. You've clearly been dealt severe set backs by users who have called you out on your postings. Instead of taking them on in a productive manner (which I encourage you to do), you're trying to censor me and a handful of other editors by wrongly claiming we are all the same people. Please stop this vandetta you have because it is leaving a black eye on this community.

I'd like the Administrators here to see User:Timothy Usher's style of arguing. He starts off with unsubstaniated claims and when they are disproven, he makes even more outlandish claims. This sort of attitude has destroyed the Talk:Islamism page and he is now using his tactics to prosecute a war against me. I look forward to action being taken which addresses my complaints. Hrana98 10:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

24.7.141.159: “It seems like s/he has a knowledge gap and an unwillingness to read the previous discussion on point s/he is bringing up.”[[11]]

128.97.247.141: “It seems like you have a knowledge gap that needs to close before we can have a productive conversation.”[[12]] Timothy Usher 10:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Are you now saying that I'm 128.97.247.141? Can someone keep count of this for me? I can't keep straight exactly how many people I am supposed to be. May I remind you that our campus has 35,000 people out of which at least a couple dozen people (that I know of) know about your (in)famous reputation here via a message board. Whether they choose to participate against you is at their discretion and I, in no way, can be held responsible for anyone elses actions. Would you please answer my questions above. Am I allowed to come home at night? Do I make 400 and 1800 mile daily commutes to campus? Do you have proof that I'm soliciting the entire internet to paint you for who you are? Thanks. Hrana98 11:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

As if it weren’t already completely obvious, after a few days absence, this user has returned with two of his socks, one on the discussion page[13], and one in the article[14]. See also [15] Judge the tone of the comments for yourselves. Timothy Usher 13:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually I'm the user at 24.7.141.159--I finally made a user name. I noticed you and your cohort Pecher have vandalized my talk page by accusing me of being 4 different users. I don't appreciate these unfounded attacks. User247 00:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Hrana98 "It is becoming quite clear that you are an argumentative editor with paranoid delusions" [[16]]

24.7.141.159 “Ahhh, once again this proves how paranoid you two idiots are.” [[17]]

User:User247 "You got owned" [[18]]

216.118.97.211"...YOU GOT OWNED..." [[19]]

You seem to be a repost king. Everyone should look at my talk page to see proof of this. My talk page says... My IP address is 24.7.141.159. The phrase "you got owned" returns 73 million hits on Google and hardly qualifies as a plausible means to determine who I am. [20]User:Gren has used the term here [21]. Are ignorantly claiming any user using the phrase is me or my sockpuppet? You are simply nuts because I'm no other user. User247 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to User:User247 below, where this discussion is continued.Timothy Usher 23:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Personal information posted on user's talk page but not by them

User:HK30 has posted a link and photo that is supposed to be User:KHM03 - this smacks of stalking as KHM03 has not made these links from his user page so I assume he does not want them publicised. User HK30 is a suspect sockpuppet who is awaiting a check user. I have no idea what to do about this bust thought I should flag it for someone more experienced to deal with. User talk:KHM03#Is this really you? (link) Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 00:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

He and a new user User:SimplePilgrim are now going round posting the link to a lot of user talk pages Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 00:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the info from User:KHM03's page while the matter is being discussed. I have not deleted it from the history. I am inclined to say that the information should be deleted from the history, as personally idenifiable information is a very serious matter. Johntex\^talk 00:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed but it's in a lot of different places now - check the contribs for HK30 and SimplePilgrim. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 00:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted it everywhere I've found it (on all the talk pages) but the link is of course in the edit histories. If I've overstepped the mark I'm sorry but it really concerns me that personal details can be linked without the permission of the user concerned. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 00:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Help please - User:HK03 is now reverting all the pages I removed this link from. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 00:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

No such username, but overcoming the slight difference in characters, I've blocked indef for POINT/stalking/edit warring/personal info. NSLE _(T+C)^{(seen this?)} at 00:59 UTC (2006-04-14)

Is a block needed on the other guy? NSLE _(T+C)^{(seen this?)} at 01:00 UTC (2006-04-14)

Yes, I think so. Not realizing you already made one block, I blocked them both for one month to give us time to discuss this without them posting additional links. Johntex\^talk 01:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your swift action - I have e-mailed User:KHM03 about this situation. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 01:04, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Please ask him whether/how much he objects to the information being in the page histories. It is somewhat of a drag to try to delete it from the history of so many pages. Johntex\^talk 01:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok - will do. User:HK30 has also edited as anon IP User:206.61.48.22 (he's admitted this on his talk page) does this also need to be blocked? Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 01:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see the claim on User:HK30's talk page that he and this IP are one and the same. I saw no edits from User:206.61.48.22 on topics other than the same ones User:HK30 frequents. So I blocked that IP address for one month also. Johntex\^talk 01:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

In this users defense, he/she was new and did not originate that site or spread it, I think, with any malice. He seems to just want a response from the users who it is about, in effect alerting them, and having the problem it talks about openly discussed, or responded to by the other side. I also note that the user, after being notified of his vio for the 3RR reverted himself so as not to violate the rule, and promised to follow the rules. I think he/she is potencially a good user, with a little explanation, and that therefore this bann is not just, esp. not indefintitely. Giovanni33 02:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I completly disagree Gio - the guy did not edit like a newbie and posting personal information everywhere he could think of pretty much counts as stalking - to the extent of asking Str1977 if he had a picture. Only the block and these kind admins stopped him from revert warring with me on this. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 07:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

On his talk page, SimplePilgrim (talk · contribs) claims he used to be John1838 (talk · contribs) and J1838 (talk · contribs), whose user page was previously deleted as an attack page. I've indef blocked both of them. Tom Harrison ^Talk 03:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Another new user User:AnotherHeneghan which is a play on another editors (and has plagiarized their user page) name is adding the links back - help please. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 08:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Reverted; deleted the transcluded user space. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 08:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you - some of the users affect by these posts are on short wikibreaks for easter so I will keep a good eye out this sort of new user. Thanks again for the very swift response. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 08:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

User:KHM03 has requested via e-mail to me that he would like all traces of these website posts removed from the edit history. He is busy at the moment with Easter celebrations so I'm posting this for him. Please could a kind admin do the necessary hard work to achieve this. Thanks. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 13:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Arsath has reverted the link on his page twice and I don't know whether I'm allowed to keep reverting back - could someone please advise/act and maybe take it from his edit history. Thanks Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 13:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Correction he has not reverted but thinks I'm supressing information. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 14:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I thank Sophia and the others for trying to help; I would very much like the histories and archives of this personal information removed, if possible. KHM03 (talk) 14:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I just did User talk:KHM03. Jkelly 21:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

It's in a lot more places than that I'm afraid - check the contributions for HK30 (talk · contribs) and SimplePilgrim (talk · contribs). Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 22:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

A couple more of these have sprung up today but I don't know all the pages they were originally posted on, these two limited themselves to the user talk page. I've blocked both indefintely and sorted out the users talk page. --pgk^(talk) 14:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Simple Pilgrim request for unblock

Simple Pilgrim has contacted me via e-mail contesting the legitimacy of the block I placed on him. He also posted on his talk page, and I replied at his talk page. I am pasting those two comments here so that others may weigh in on whether the block should be reduced/lengthened/left-alone. User:HK30 has made a similar complaint on his website. This is the comment from Simple Pilgrim:

• I am very interested in why you have blocked me.

• In particular you say that I have posted personally identifiable information (or allegedly personal informaiton) onto multiple user pages. I dispute this and ask if you can point me at an example.

• I gather from other sources that what you may have meant is that I provided links to a site which contained such information. If so, I dispute this too. There is only one site that you could be referring to. When I posted links to it the site contained no personal information other than that available on Wikipedia. I do not know if such information was added subsequently, but if it was I do not see that I could be held responsible for it.

• I notice that other users have also been blocked for doing the same thing. As far as I can tell, no one was warned about the Wikipedia rule concerning personal information and the website in question says that no attempt was made to contact it. This seems exraordinary. Why would you and AnnH seek to punish people for a first offence (people who could well not have known about the rule) but make no effort to have the offending material removed. This of course is a secondary question since, as I mentioned, in my case no offence was commited anyway - the links provided being perfectly acceptable when they were posted)

• For the sake of clarity, I am happy to confirm that I have no intention of either mentioning or providing links to personal information in the future and in the circumstances I would be grateful if you would lift your unwarranted ban immediately SimplePilgrim 21:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I just received your e-mail. I will begin reviewing your situation and then I will make a more substantive reply to you here. Johntex\^talk 18:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is a more complete explanation of why you were blocked:

1. You were blocked for a post you made at 23:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC) to User_talk:HK30. That post has been deleted now, so it does not appear in your user contributions. It is visible to administrators if the go to HK30's talk history and view deleted edits. The content of your post was to point HK30 to an external website.
2. HK30 then spread that information further around Wikipedia.
3. The content of that website regurgitated the same content that previously made up the user page of User:John1838 and User:J1838.
4. The content from those user pages was deemed to be a personal attack, so it was deleted from those pages.
5. You have admitted that you are the same user as User:John1838 and User:J1838.
6. Given that this external website incorporates information off your old user pages, and pushes the same POV you have pushed here (which is your view that there is some sort of Christian cabal controlling edits to specific articles), it is highly likely you are directly affiliated with the external site.
7. Moving deleted content off to an external site in an attempt to circumvent the deletion of it here is simply not acceptable. By itself this would be a blockable offense because you are trying to use a back door to reintroduce these personal attacks. You are doing so with full knowledge of the policy you are violating because you went through the whole proceedure when it was deleted off your user page.
8. The external website also reveals personal information about some Wikipedia contributors. This is a violation of WP:HA. Harrassment of editors is such a serious offense that it merits no prior warning. I will block on site for harrassment based around distributing people's personal information.

In conclusion - you did post a link to an external site. That site does provide personal information about Wikipedia editors. Such posting of information is considered harassement. The site is also being used an an attempt at an end-run to reintroduce content that was deleted off your Wikipedia user page. In the context of that deletion - you have been suitably warned already. Therefore, I see no reason to remove or shorten the block.

For clarity, short blocks override long blocks, therefore, your block will expire in a little less than a month.

I am also making a new post to WP:ANI to show other administrators that you have contested your block, and that I have replied to you declining to remove or shorten the block. This will give other admins a chance to review my decision.

Be warned, however, that the community is just as likely to decide to lenghten the block (perhaps permenantly) as they are to reduce it. Johntex\^talk 21:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Your help

I really would like to ask you to make me a favour: please unblock User:ROGNNTUDJUU! I think that is a mistake and this user needs a second chance. Best regards, --StabiloBoss 13:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

ROGNNTUDJUU! is an abusive sockpuppet of De mortuis.... De mortuis is not currently blocked, so there is no need to unblock the account he is no longer using. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure whether the sock puppet and the sock master weren't confused here, but I agree that one account should be enough. Does it matter which of the two is blocked? Kusma (討論) 15:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I responded to the call of this user. Let's unblock him first and see how he will behave. I think is better to give him a chance. --StabiloBoss 18:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Why do they need two accounts? Jkelly 21:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't know. But if there are two users then it should be unblocked. Let us assume this. StabiloBoss 22:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that one account should be enough, and ROGNNTUDJUU! is not a good user name. Jonathunder 22:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Let us see him how he will behave. ok? StabiloBoss 22:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Per the block log, Dave Gerard, who has checkuser ability, has blocked this account indef as an abusive sockpuppet. If you would like to ask Dave Gerard to reconsider his decision you are free to do so. Jonathunder 22:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Let's give him another chance and we'll see about it. Seems fair enough. StabiloBoss 22:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Reply of ROGNNTUDJUU! from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ROGNNTUDJUU%21#Unblock_request:

I only use this one account, which is blocked. I had another account, which was accused of sockpuppetry apparently for the same reason that we have a shared router for the whole house as I explain above. I abandoned the other account and do not even remember the password. David Gerard did not get back to me when I emailed him, nor did Kelly Lynn who according to David had also done a user check. ROGNNTUDJUU! (who wonders why this should not be a good user name.) 00:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please take care of this? I will leave the house in a couple of days anyways, so the problem should not persist. De mortuis... 02:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I find it quite annoying that instead of reacting even new ridiculous accusations turn up in this userbox and sockpuppetry paranoia: [22] [23] De mortuis... 15:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

God, I hate it when people misrepresent what I say. Look at the next edit to that UT page, made ten minutes later: [24] —BorgHunter ^ubx (talk) 21:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

False Accusations

• 67.71.84.112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 67.70.149.60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) have tagged my userpage with the suspected sockpuppet template. Both of these users have about 5 edits and have accused me of being a sockpuppet of User:Theonlyedge despite the fact that since February, we've only edited one common page (check contribs). I suspect that the above Anon users are sockpuppets of Eyeonvaughan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who was recently blocked for running a sockfarm. Is there a proper way to go about taking down the tag and proving I'm not a puppet? pm_shef 19:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Generally those sock tags have to be backed up by some sort of evidence. You can request a checkuser on yourself, I suppose, at WP:RCU if you like. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 19:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted both their edits to yours and Theonlyedge's page, and am about to warn them that it is best not to accuse someone of sockpuppetry without documentation (and even then I'd feel better if it was primarily done by an admin). --Syrthiss 19:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

69.156.150.188 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is now doing exactly the same thing. user:pm shef and user:Theonlyedge's user pages are both now semi-protected so they're hitting the user talk pages instead. The contribs do not suggest any relationship between the two users. Thryduulf 00:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Note that these IP addresses are in the same range of Bell Canada numbers previously used by suspected socks of Eyeonvaughan (talk · contribs) and/or VaughanWatch (talk · contribs). Thatcher131 03:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a large WP:RFCU request pending on all these users/ips and more - Wikipedia:Requests for CheckUser#64.231.242.202 (talk • contribs) and 69.156.148.61 (talk • contribs) Thryduulf 09:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Evidence that Theonlyedge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a sockpuppet of Pm_shef (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1. After Alan Shefman's son User:Pm_shef writes that he will abstain from editing articles related to Vaughan politics, and confirmed that abstention at 05:55, 11 April 2006 here, "Theonlyedge" goes after Pm_shef's longtime Vaughan target (who he nominated for the AfD a month prior) a few hours later, at 22:02, 11 April 2006 here. Coincidence?

2. The name of Pm_shef's father's company is simply The Edge. It is involved in anti-racism, which we know Pm_shef/ Corey Shefman has been involved in too, both personally and through his edits. The Edge sounds a lot like The Only Edge... a coincidence? See main link to his father's bread-and-butter for 25 years: [www3.sympatico.ca/theedgeq/]

3. Roughly 50% of all Theonlyedge's edits are also articles that Pm_shef has edited. Compare Pm_shef's contributions to Theonlyedge's contributions.

4. Both accounts in question were created within 5 weeks of one another; Pm_shef on Oct 31 2005, TheOnlyEdge on Dec 11 2005.

5. 4 hours after Pm_shef nominates this article for deletion (which he ultimately lost), Theonlyedege comes around and does NOT vote Keep or Delete but rather, after two consecutive Keep votes, adds a comment that the article should be shortened to 2 or 3 paragraghs. This was Shef's way of cutting his losses. See original AfD Keep debate: [[25]].

6. Both users are from Thornhill, as they have both have edited the article on Thornhill and are obsessed with their politicians.

7. Both are obsessed with adding positive POV edits to their favorites Susan Kadis (as well as Michael Di Biase) and negative edits/blanking to their political competitor Mario Racco and political opponents Anthony Reale, Tina Molinari and Josh Cooper.

8. Why did Pm_shef / Theonlyedge create this article on a previous opponent? So that he can control it. He can keep it down to 2 or 3 sentences and maintain control over content.

I hope this is enough evidence, but if you want more, I can find more. Theonlyedge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as I see it, is the sockpuppet that does the dirty work for Pm_shef. He comes out of hibernation when needed, like a trusty administrative assistant. Leotardo 22:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Unwarranted removal of talk page discussion text

FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has begun removing my discussion comments from the Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view page, twice now [26] [27]

I consider the talk page an accurate record of discussions, and too remove such text is misleading to other editors, and against Wiki policy on Wikipedia:Civility. I feel that FeloniousMonk should be blocked from editing the policy page and its talk page. --Iantresman 20:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ian, I was just in the process of looking at what's happening at that page, because I was wondering if you had violated 3RR. I'm not saying you have, mind you, because I've just started to look. Regardless of that, could I ask you not to try adding new material to the policy pages without consensus? Particularly at the moment, because a few policy talk pages have been under some pressure of late from new editors (I'm thinking of -Lumiere in particular), whereas these are pages that need to be stable, and I was actually thinking of protecting NPOV if the reverting continued. Anyway, I'll go and take a closer look now. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Just confirming that you didn't violate 3RR. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't discuss the issue, becaues FeloniousMonk has moved my comments from the page, as mentioned above. That is the problem --Iantresman 20:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ian, having looked into this more closely, I now see you appear to be continuing in the footsteps of -Lumière while he's away. I ask you most sincerely not to do this. I don't know what the particular issues are on the NPOV page, because it's a page I don't often edit, but I saw your comments on the RfC about how WP:V must apply to policy pages too, and of course it doesn't, so you and -Lumière have simply misunderstood how policy works on Wikipedia. I'm not saying that necessarily means you're wrong on the substantive issue under dispute (because I don't know what that is), but I can see from the comments you've left on the RfC that your reasoning and approach isn't good. -Lumière is a very troublesome, inexperienced editor who keeps changing his user name so that it's harder to keep track of exactly how troublesome he's being. Any editor who supports him is likely to be put in the same category, perhaps unfairly. Therefore, can I ask you (for your own sake as well as for the stability of the policy page) to take a rest from this for a few weeks, and perhaps return to it when the -Lumière issue has been dealt with and things have calmed down? As for the talk-page refactoring, -Lumière has caused havoc on numerous policy talk pages, so it's not surprising that editors on Talk:NPOV have decided to userfy his or similar posts. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

• I'd like to discuss this with you further, here or elsewhere? --Iantresman 21:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is probably best, or you can e-mail me. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, at FeloniousMonk's request, I have read through all the talk:Neutral point of view archives to discover where the issues I have brought up, have been discussed before. While "Undue weight" has been discussed at length, the points I mention on (a) verifiability (b) paraphrasing, do not appear to have been mentioned before. I can't prove that, as I can't easily show what hasn't been discussed, but I am sure that FeloniousMonk can easily provide a quote from the archives to show that it has.

So effectively, ANY discussion on "Undue weight" is now beyond discussion; any issue that anyone brings up on "Undue weight" may be now be deemed Lumière-esque, and squashed.

Even my brief discussion on Undue weight, that was moved to my talk page [28] resulted in an acknowledgement that a link to the "original email" may be warranted. And there is even the suggestions that "Jimbo is not the supreme lawgiver" (which seems contrary to the Wiki Policy page), and also deserves discussion (and again I can't find previous discussion). There is even some discussion on the subject in my "absence" [29] but of course it is very one-sided.

SlimVirgin, the policy pages themselves encourage discussion. My discussion issues appear to be unique, and hence valid. Consquently their removal from the Talk page is unwarranted, and other editors certainly shouldn't be able to choose which issues to address, let alone whether to remove them. --Iantresman 11:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to support Ian on this. SlimVirgin has a habit of removing material, even from talk pages, which she doesn't like. Her behaviour on the Animal Rights talk page is a case in point. Mccready 06:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Talk page problem

Following an unexpectedly angry reaction to a comment on an AfD vote, I placed a comment on User:JJay's talk page, seeking to understand his motivation. Both during and after a largely fruitless discussion, JJay has made a number of unexplained changes to my words: [30], [31], [32]. I then chose to remove my content from his talk page [33], not wanting to be misrepresented, regardless of severity. JJay reverted without explanation [34]. I then posted a request that he remove my words himself, or restore them to their original form [35], which JJay has also reverted [36]. JJay has a history of heated exchanges with other editors, and I see little other recourse than to ask for admin intervention. Should this be an inappropriate request for WP:AN/I, please notify me so I can post to the correct page. Thanks. Tijuana Brass 03:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I made no material changes to this user's comments except to remove a misleading string of text while leaving the underlying Wp:AGF link the user had hidden [37]. Besides that, I changed the heading to the section- which is my right- and changed the link to the AFD page. I have very good reasons for doing this, because any message on my user page brings certain editors rushing to the AfD in question to vote against whatever stance I have taken. I reiterate that no significant changes were made to the comments. Nevertheless, there is a very clear warning notice on the user page that explains that messages can and will be edited for content. Besides all that, I have made no personal attacks against this editor and fail to see why he has addressed himself to this forum or on what basis he can make a broad statement regarding my history of exchanges with other editors, particularly since our exchange was never particularly heated. -- JJay 04:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Changes included nonsensically changing the section header "Personal attacks" to "pet rocks" do you have an explanation for that? At best it seems to be not taking the matter seriously and being a dick JoshuaZ 19:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that comment. I have explained why I change headings on the page. In this case, this user was not posting on the page to accuse me of making a personal attack. He was there ostensibly to find out why I was annoyed by his crack that I operate from "hardcore POV". In a series of posts, he then went on to talk about my "odd reactions", that "conflict with others is a recurring thing" for me, that I'm "looking at things the wrong way", take editing at Wikipedia "so personally", have a "history of heated exchanges" etc. In one of his messages, he writes "If there's good reason shown to keep the article, I'm willing to change my vote". Then when I provide some links showing that my AfD comment was not based on "hardcore POV", he responds with "You're missing the point. I didn't bring this up on your talk page to debate the merits of the Jackson article". I came to realize that his point was to lecture and provide advice, neither of which I asked for. His point was certainly not to apologize for accusing me of "hardcore POV". I came to feel very much like a pet rock, being told to sit, stay and roll-over. And since there is no reason that I have to repeatedly respond to this type of lecturing on my user page under an arbitary section header chosen by another user, I changed the heading to one I felt was more fitting to the general tenor of the conversation. Of course, as you have helpfully pointed out, I have a long history of being a dick, probably as a result of all those heated exchanges, and that is not likely to change anytime soon. -- JJay 01:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Apparently he's wiki-stalking me as well. I'll leave all other judgments as to WP:V WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and related issues (for both him and myself) to third parties. Tijuana Brass 04:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Stalking??? That's a fairly serious accusation for which I hope you have some proof. You should realize that this is a public forum. Like for most editors, it is on my watchlist. Naturally, I'm going to respond when comments are left here that concern me. That is most decidely not stalking. I also frankly don't understand why you are citing WP:V. -- JJay 04:41, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

(changed WP:V to WP:CIVIL, typo) Tijuana Brass 04:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Stalking??? That's a fairly serious accusation for which I hope you have some proof. You mean like claiming, "any message on my user page brings certain editors rushing to the AfD in question to vote against whatever stance I have taken," which you did -- oh look -- two postings above it? Boy, that's a fairly serious accusation for which I hope you have some proof. --Calton | Talk 06:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

JJay's statement above isn't an accusation of anybody in particular. And there's proof like this on his talk page (not exactly the same, I realize, but it seems related). In any case, Tijuana Brass doesn't seem to have much of a case here from what I've seen. The only questionable edit linked here is [38] which does actually change the meaning of a sentence that didn't sound particularly offensive originally, but the meaning change was almost certainly unintentional considering the context it's in and his explanation of the change here. As for the revertions he made later, I don't see anything wrong with those either, it's his talk page and he wasn't removing warnings from it. Maybe he hasn't always acted as friendly as possible but I don't see any clear violations here, not even of WP:CIVIL. –Tifego^(t) _{07:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)}

JJay's statement above isn't an accusation of anybody in particular. It's an accusation of stalking by individuals whom he coyly refuses to name -- so it's still an accusation of stalking, period/full stop. All in peculiar defense of making a misleading word change in someone else's words; again, period/full stop. Not a violation of civility, just of intellectual honesty and of consistency. --Calton | Talk 11:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Carlton, let's not cloud the issue. I have never stalked this user. In fact, the only interaction I have ever had with TijuanaBrass was one AfD nom, my responses to his comments on my talk page, and this forum. That is not stalking by any stretch of the imagination. It is also undeniably a different beast entirely from the stalking I have experienced, which has involved editor(s) repeatedly editing the same pages I am editing, shadowing my AfD participation, and otherwise taking actions that are designed to harrass. With much of this action using the talk page as the jumping off point. However, I have never accused TijuanaBrass of this, so it is not exactly pertinent to this discussion. It is also not an example of intellectual dishonesty. As to the small change made to one of TijuanaBrass's comments, it was excessively minor and not in any way misleading, nor was it intended to mislead. I tend to find long embedded links under unrelated phrases not particularly civil. If he wanted to, he could have changed that minor removal back. Instead he removed all of his comments and the section header and made an uncivil edit summary. Since unlike most editors, I have never removed any comments from the talk page, including attacks, complaints or messsages from vandals, I would rather his comments remain, particularly since I took the time to respond. After considering this overnight, and in the interest of putting this to bed, I have returned the five words that were removed- i.e. "perhaps you're looking at things the wrong way". We may all be looking at things in the wrong way, but whatever the case, I am obviously more than happy to let this user express himself in his own words. -- JJay 12:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Carlton, let's not cloud the issue.' Hey, let's not. You could start, by not making up things; you know, not defending yourslf against things no one said you did. Read what I wrote again, and do it slowly: what I was pointing out was your double standard in being insulted and demanding proof of an accusation you had not the slightest compunction in saying to others. And underneath all your convoluted justifications lies a simple truth: you changed someone else's words to change, however subtle, their actual message. Your I am obviously more than happy to let this user express himself in his own words is untrue on multiple levels -- starting with "obviously" -- and I stand by my reference to "intellectual dishonesty". No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, it'll never be Miss America. --Calton | Talk 20:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't read slow enough to make sense out of your comment. Other than that, I stand by everything I've said or done, including the reasons for placing the notice on my user page, which this user chose to ignore. And no, I had no intention of changing this user's "actual message". What I actually did was waste a lot of time responding to it, as I am still doing. -- JJay 21:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

JJay, editing anybody else's comments is inappropriate, and I suggest you either leave them as they were, or delete them from your Talk page. User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

JJay's talk page is more or less at its original form, so we should be done here. Thanks for those who've commented. This baby's ready to be archived. Tijuana Brass 18:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Guess I spoke too soon. Tijuana Brass 07:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

More

User:JJay changes the title of talk subject [39] and then here[40] I fixed an error in my writing[41] to which JJay reverted my own edit back to the error[42]. Meanwhile causally correcting his own mistakes[43]. User:JJay also breaks WP:CIVIL several times[44]. For example, "calling a troll a troll is not a personal attack," "your intelligence is absent tonight," "your list of dirty tricks," and "win the troll of the year award" among others. Arbusto 02:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Bravo. Your initial question and non-reason for posting to the user page broke WP:CIV and WP:AGF. I am impressed, though, that you haven't yet accused me of being a sock puppet here. I guess you save that for my user page. -- JJay 02:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It is well established that User:Jason Gastrich has recruited wikipedia members and used sock puppets to push his agenda[45] and [46]. This evidence of meat pupperty[47] is also on a AfD you voted agreeing with Gastrich (who made the page during his year long ban.) You have never reverted any white washing (example of white washing[48]) despite posting on the talk and agreeing with some of his wishes. Meanwhile you have still refused to answer if you have been in contact with him or an intermediary.

Instead of answering the question you violated WP:CIVIL, reverted my edits, and changed the talk section, which implies that I wrote it as a "Gastrich attack." Arbusto 03:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I never reverted your edits, although given the number of posts and the time I took to respond there may have been a conflict. Other than that, your continued attempts to slime me through some perceived association with a banned user, first on my user page and now here, are laughable. -- JJay 03:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Two minutes after this user posted "I never reverted your edits" he reverted[49] and again to alter the section title[50]. Also please explain why you reverted my typo corrections[51] twice. Arbusto 03:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, because as I wrote that you reverted the page [52] removing a title that had been there for two hours and I reverted your reversion. However, please explain why you trolled my user page with a bizarre question implying that I'm a sock puppet [53]. As I indicated there, if you have proof then spell it out now in the proper forum. Otherwise, this looks like a blatant attempt to create conflict in order to latch on to the earlier thread.-- JJay 04:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Now would be a great time for both of you to drop this. You will never see eye to eye because of your fundamentally differing belief systems, and it's pointless to even try. What you should do is look at each other's contributions, weigh them against policy, and point out in a civil manner when there are things wrong. Just because someone disagrees fundamentally with your religion does not mean they are necessarily wrong in everything they say about it; and just because someone has deeply-held beliefs does not mean they can't write factually about the subjects of those beliefs without violating WP:NPOV. You both have a history of good contributions, and there are plenty of avenues for resolution of disputes. Just cool it, please, and engage on issues not personalities. Just zis Guy you know? 09:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Dr Les Sachs (Suspected) at Patricia Cornwell

85.144.140.118 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (Suspected to be Dr Les Sachs) [54] continues to add defamatory style information related to Patricia Cornwell across article and user space. [55] [[56] Is also making attacks against DreamGuy. FloNight ^talk 08:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Blocked 24h. I'd like to block for longer, but I believe that address is from an ISP's pool, can anyone confirm? Just zis Guy you know? 09:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Jameswatt

Jameswatt (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) has been posting the same basic comment to a wide range of Talk pages, giving a link to his site, and asking for it to be placed in the article. Sgrayban (talk · contribs) and Henry Flower (talk · contribs) have been removing them all, and after various warnings, blocked Jameswatt for link-spamming.

We don't allow the adding of links to one's site to articles; instead, we advise editors to do exactly what Jameswatt was doing: add the link to the Talk pages, and let other editors decide. The warnings, blocking, and removal of comments were therefore surely mistaken. Do other admins agree with that judgement?

The issue is complicated by two factors. One, which I think is essentially irrelevant, is that the site is appallingly inaccurate and worthless, and we shouldn't want the links added to any Wikipedia article. The other is that Jameswatt evaded the block by continuing to post his messages from 59.144.97.157 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). For that reason, I didn't lift the block, and I've blocked the mock-puppet. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Spam on talk pages is just as effective as spam on article pages, and once other edits are made on top of those edits it's a hell of a job to weed them out. Leaving those links in place would harm Wikipedia be encouraging people to spam talk pages. Placing a link on the talk page for discussion works fine for one proposed link, but not for tens of links each on a different page. Incidentally, as far as I am aware the IP edits came before the warning and block on Jameswatt's talk page, so I wouldn't have blocked.Henry^Flower 14:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Spam is spam and reverting it from talk pages is not doing harm in any sense of the word. Instead all the reverts to remove were undone by User:Mel Etitis who is a admin here. I would like a explanation of this when the goal of RC Patrollers is to remove such non-sense and spamming. It undermines the goal of WikiPedia.

Quoting Mel from the talk page "Why does it bother you that his site is benefitted by these links? We're not policemen, we're admins trying to protect Wikiepdia — and the links on Talk pages are doing no harm to Wikipedia. The site is clearly worthless, being grossly, not to say childishly, inaccurate, but then the links won't be added. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)" seems to be a bit harsh and rude to combat such spamming. --Scott Grayban 15:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks a pretty obvious case of spamming to me, as noted the content of the destination site is pretty worthless and contains google ads. The sheer voulme and willingness to continue once blocked etc. etc. Can't see why we'd want to encourage any future spammer from doing the same by leaving this in place. --pgk^(talk) 16:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm with pgk and Scott here. Spam on talk pages is just as bad as spam in the articles. If you look at Jameswatt's talk page, several users said he could add the links. So not only is it spam, but it's basically a scam to trick people as well. We shouldn't be encouraging it. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 17:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

When recently editors from another site added links to tens of articles, I removed them, explaining that we don't allow that sort of thing, and pointing to the guideline that such links should be placed on Talk pages. They were stubborn, and resisted, and in the end went off in a huff, but if they'd done what I (and Wikiepdia guidelines) said and added the links to all those Talk pages, it seems that the above admins would have removed them all and blocked the editors (something that I didnt do even when the link-spam was to articles). that seems wrong to me. Our guidelines don't say that links should only be placed on a certain number of Talk pages, nor that links should meet some quality standard.

I agree that he should have been approached (courteously), and told that none of the links would be added to any of the articles as they didn't meet our standards, and becasuse we discourage over-linking. A boiler-plate comment could have been added to all the Talk pages involved, saying that the link shouldn't be added, and giving the reasons. Instead, the editor was reverted and blocked for doing what Wikipedia guidelines told him to do. I don't accept that that's right. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So that we're clear on this, he was blocked by Woohookitty for a grand total of three minutes. [57] Henry^Flower 17:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

When a large message is placed on a Talk page announcing a block, something ought to placed there explaining that (and why) the block was lifted. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Then the guidelines and the function of RC Patrollers is in conflict here. I noticed it was spam links and that was its only intention of it. Regardless they are in talk pages or not it is still accessable by anyone and therefor promoting spam. It makes zero sense to not allow spam links on articles and allow them on talk pages. That said the reverts you did Mel should have just gone ignored and overlooked when you knew they were spam links and you admited to that. Now instead of 20 some odd pages that we had removed that from now still has it. --Scott Grayban 17:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't follow all of this, but I don't see that you've addressed the arguments that I gave. Thanks to User:Markalexander100 (alias Henry Flower) for noticing that the IP was used to edit before the block; I've unblocked it and apologised. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Your argument is that the Wikipedia guidelines told him to make the requests on the talk pages. That's fine when the links fit the guidelines but when its obvious they don't and the intent was to spam, which it was, is a conflict between removing spam and the functions of a revert to get rid of it. --Scott Grayban 17:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's important to focus here on the end result; should the link be on Wikipedia in any shape? Probably not. Cut through the red tape, then, and just excise it. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 18:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It may make sense to add to the guidelines that posting links to the same website on many (say over 10) talk pages would also be spamming? JoshuaZ 18:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Katefan. He has placed this on aproximately 71 talk pages, claiming it is probably the most famous portal of biography to this article, which is utterly rediculous (in addition to non-parsable). He's now got 71 links to his site from wikipedia, even if these links are on talk pages. It is clearly spam, and i can't really see why removing it should be an issue . . . --He:ah? 18:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This is a no-brainer and an obvious attempt to spam. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I dont see anything wrong with removing it, but if this is going to be the general rule then it would be good for future reference to have a policy we can point to and/or use to justify blocks. JoshuaZ 19:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. How should this get started? --Scott Grayban 19:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is Wikipedia:Spam. And probably the Village pump. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 19:41, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've already brought the matter up at WP:SPAM. JoshuaZ 19:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Link for it JoshuaZ? --Scott Grayban 19:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Here. JoshuaZ 19:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Definitely post to the policy section of the pump, it'll get more/wider attention there. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 19:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Will do. JoshuaZ 19:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

JoshuaZ post on my talk page when you do up the proposal please. I want to follow this through. Thanks. --Scott Grayban 20:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

What on earth is going on here? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

As in ? A user reverted the spam back that I removed right after Woohookitty informed me of the indef block which was reversed later on. What is the issue here? That I removed the spam and you want it back or the fact I asked the editors to not revert and bring it back? --Scott Grayban 20:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

First, there's a very big question mark over whether this is link-spam, given the clear instructions to those who want to add links to their site, which is why I started the discussion here. Secondly, despite your claim, the original poster is not permanently blocked (as he shouldn't be). As I now see from User talk:Henry Flower, you seem to see this as battle against me personally; as I don't recall coming up against you under this name, do you have another account? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Its link spam period. Other people including other WP admin agree that it is. You seem to have it out for me by disputing your actions and me calling attention to it. You reverted all our removal of the spam links and your still defending it like its written in stone that spam links are allowed on talk pages. You don't seem to understand this is spam and your using your rollback like a toy and I view that as abuse. Oh I am sure that I'll get banned for some reason now that you put me in a corner to defend myself here from you accusing me of having a personal attack on you. However the only thing I have aginst you is the fact you have reverted all the spam links back. I looked at your history[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20060415144118&limit=50&target=Mel_Etitis] and the actions on the reverts is uncalled for. --Scott Grayban 21:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Declarations like "spam is spam" and "this is a no-brainer" are unhelpful (and the latter is somewhat insulting, as are comments referring to common sense, etc. It's possible to disagree without being an idiot or lacking sense). We have a clear instruction to editors to behave in a certain way when they want links to their sites added to articles. The instructions don't limit the number of articles, nor do they say something like "only do this if your site isn't crap". This editor followed the rules, and was pounced upon and attacked by a couple of admins as though he was a criminal deviant. Why on Earth should we care if this person has seventy-one links to his site? We should care about what appears in our articles; the links don't appear there, which is what the rules about spam-linking are concerned with. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

  the rules against spam are not only to keep the links off of our articles; wikipedia is explicitly not to be used for advertisement, and as zoe says below, googlebombing is googlebombing. There is no reason to allow these links to sit on the talk pages in order to increase the google rank of worldofbiography through the abuse of wikipedia. --He:ah? 21:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Twaddle. Talk pages are as much a part of Wikipedia as are article pages. Googlebombing is Googlebombing, we have forced people to remove links from their User pages, why should spam be allowed on 70, 710, or 71,000 Talk pages? Why do you object to "spam is spam", when that's an incontestable fact? Why do you want spam on Talk pages? User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• More incivility; this really is getting people heated. "Spam is spam" simply repeats the claim against which I'm arguing, without bothering to consider and responsd to my arguments. Perhaps I'm wrong, and my arguments can be shown to be unsound — but merely telling me repeatedly that I'm being silly and missing the obvious is unhelpful and does nothing to move the discussion on. Talk pages are different from articles pages: we don't allow editorial discussion in articles, we do on Talk pages; we don't allow people to add links to their own sites to articles, we do allow (indeed encourage) it on Talk pages. If the claim is that our poicy should be changed, and people should be forbidden even from adding such links to Talk pages, then that should be argued for. If the idea is that a central page should be created where editors can place suggestions for links to a site in multiple articles, then fine, that should be argued for. Instead I'm just seeing a lot of emotional ranting about spam and Google bombing, etc.
  I care about Wikipedia's articles being compromised, I care about readers being pointed to misleading and downright false information, but I don't care (at least, not as a Wikipedia editor) about somebody increasing links to their site; I'm not an Internet policeman. They're using Wikipedia to do it? yes. Does it hurt us or our readers? No. Did we tell the person involved to do it in the first place? Yes. So should we officiously remove all mention of the links because we don't like them? No. Does that mean that I want the links? How on Earth could what I've said imply that? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

And to top this off, after the clear view of many admins that this is spam, you reverted one of my edits[58] back to show the spam again which was removed again by another user. --Scott Grayban 22:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Another example of Mel reposting the spam is here. An anon, per the example, has since removed the spam. Might I suggest that we talk this one over before an out of hand wheel war erupts. --Jay(Reply) 22:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not another example, it's the same one. Unsurprisingly, because (despite the foaming of some people here) I reverted once, and then gave an example of what I thought should be the correct response at Talk:Plato. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the original user should be blocked (imo, he shouldn't be since agf he was following policy) their seems to be a consensus that the links are spam by any definition and would only be not-spam by what is essentially a loophole in WP:SPAM. Furthermore, giving nearly identical messages to 71 different talk pages constitutes disruption which should be dealt with. Mel's repeated reversion of their removal is unhelpful. JoshuaZ 00:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

See above concerning this "repeated" claim. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I have commented out all the remaining links using <!-- and --> That should prevent google from picking them up yes? JoshuaZ 01:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. If a editor/user doesn't realize its spam and removes the the remark tags, doesn't revert thinking it was vandal, or someone just simply reverts it back for no valid reason. Otherwise it should be ok. --Scott Grayban 02:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a question, is spam on User pages just as harmful as article talk pages? Like making a bunch of accounts and filling the user page with spam? DyslexicEditor 16:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not duplicating here my arguments, at User talk:Henry Flower#Talk-page spam, that

1. The policy Wikipedia:Vandalism and guideline Wikipedia:Spam give no support to calling talk-page spam a form of vandalism (and strongly suggest it is not).
2. An ext link on a talk page has far less visibility (and does disproportionally less harm) than the same link on the corresponding article page.
   

(My opinion at this point is that

_ _ the proposed lks would be bad,

_ _ they deserve routine or bot-driven action to remove resulting article lks, and to respond negatively to the proposals, perhaps breaking the links, but

_ _ the reversions with the boilerplate summary of admin-standard reversion were vigilantism & worse than the problem they addressed.)

--Jerzy•t 04:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

He's back

Making throwaway accounts now, but leaving the same message on various talk pages. I've only caught two so far: [59], [60]. Antandrus (talk) 05:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No reason to report it here anymore. According to Mel is perfectly fine to spam talk pages. --Scott Grayban 05:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not okay. I see this as an ol' SEO attempt, since our talk pages have the same high Google rank as the article pages. The clickthroughs from our talk pages are entirely secondary (at least that's my assessment - comments?) -- grm_wnr Esc 05:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Talk pages certainly get picked up: do a Google search for "Elliott Frankl" and see [61].

I agree that its not ok but according to Mel(see above) and his reverts of Henry Flower reverts and mine, see history of this here[62], to remove it was unproductive as Mel explains the current spam policy does not prohibit this. Instead he says that if the user asks to place a link on the talkpages that is perfectly fine. --Scott Grayban 06:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not if he includes a live link that gets picked up by Google, and does so on 71 pages. At least, I always had the impression that Wikipedia is not a link farm. -- grm_wnr Esc 06:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Mel explains...' That's Mel's opinion, and I certainly don't feel bound by such fine and pointless hair-splitting: especially since the spammer has already been told, no, it's not acceptable. Unless Mel is arguing that it's okay to ask essentially the same question 71 different times. --Calton | Talk 06:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no clear, set in stone, policy that prevents this on talkpages. This was the arguement from before. Even though the consensus was it is spam we can not enforce the no spam policy at all on this and I imagine because of that reverting any spamlinks like this on talk pages would also violate some policy if its done so I won't touch anything thats remotely spam on talkpages for that reason. Also there is nothing on Talk page guidelines that says otherwise as well. --Scott Grayban 06:37, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Policy doesn't prohibit a lot of things - the lack of a policy prohibiting them doesn't make it an acceptable thing to do; Wikipedia's policies are not codes of laws. Regardless, if he persists, it might be a good idea to think about adding his site to the spam blacklist. Raul654 06:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Mel insists that the reverts me and Henry Flower did were against policy and reverted all our reverts. Mel's no debate attitude above shows he is going on the "written in stone" thinking and refuses to concede that its spam and should be removed. This debate is exactly why this incident was started in the first place. Now its become a hiar-splitting one with yet still no end results on removing spam on talkpages. --Scott Grayban 06:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Be bold: I'm taking the liberty of nuking them myself, and if Mel doesn't like it, Mel can lump it. --Calton | Talk 06:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, it looks like he's done it before. Note the duplication here. --Calton | Talk 06:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

...and he's not paying much attention, as shown by this addition about Rembrandt to an article about a fictional character named Rembrandt Brown. --Calton | Talk 06:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not touching any spam on talkpages in fear I'll be blocked from here. I'm just a lowly RC Patroller with no backing of adminship that Mel has. --Scott Grayban 06:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Mel is an admin, not God. He's not going to block users over -- at what could be considered at a considerable stretch -- a content dispute; and in the unlikely event he tried to do so, those blocks would be reversed so fast it would make his head spin. --Calton | Talk 07:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The hysteria and unpleasantness over this, together with the original vigilantism as Jerzy correctly described it is worrying. Aside from sneering, sarcastic questions on my Talk page from User:Zoe, User:Sgrayban is now leaving this sort of thing around the place. Calton has, unfortunately, joined in on this page with the same sort of aggressive language and approach. What on Earth is going on here? I made a point, in line with clearly stated Wikipedia guidelines, that a couple of admins had reacted very badly towards an editor who was following those guidelines. I reverted (once) their removal of what I took (and still take) to be legitimate comments left in accordance with Wikipedia:External links ("If [a link to a website that you own or maintain] is relevant and informative, mention it as a possible link on the talk page and wait for someone else to include it, or include the information directly in the article"). Few people (apart from Jerzy) who have responded have taken the time to read what I said carefully enough to understand it, but have simply reacted with robotic cries of "spam", etc.

I hold no brief for the editor concerned, and I've made clear that I think that the site is poor, and that the links shouldn't be added. I don't however, think that editors' poor behaviour is excused simply because they're acting against someone of whom we disapprove. When that poor behaviour is followed by the sort of reaction I've seen here, it saddens and worries me. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

OMG - First your reverted 47 reverts of the spam back to spam again, pointless and useless and started something that you dont like. Then you double reverted to make a silly point on silly boiler-plate only to revert the bloody spam back again that a another user reverted. Thats a clear sign of I don't care about anyone's opinion of what spam is. You lack the judgement to let the reverts stand knowing the links were spam. The you claim I had a personal attack on you. Then you jump everyone that disputes your reasoning on this. Taking the note of another incident this is the classic WP:DICK problem. All this ened with zero help on your part and opened a nice can of worms. --Scott Grayban 18:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You didn't revert once, you reverted somone's good faith removal 47+ times with admin rollback. While it is guideline to add links to a talk page to suggest inclusion, that doesn't extend to doing it to hundreds of pages. One is sufficient to allow discussion. More than that, especially over 10 is not helpful and is just advertising, After discussion has occured and people have noticed it, and consensus is that the link isn't valuable, there is no reason to add the request for the links back. Further, there is consensus here that it is spam, so that's enough. And no, incivility isn't condoned, and you're right, people should calm down and stay civil even when dealing with a serious spammer, but your actions escalated the matter, they did not help resolve it. - Taxman ^Talk 14:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh good grief.

1. I reverted the removal of links once; the number of links is irrelevant.
2. There is no mention of a limit on the number of Talk pages to which links should be added.
3. In almost all the cases, there had been no time for discussion or even response to the links; the efditors concerned decided that other editors shouldn't be given the chance to see the proposals.
4. Consensus here, especially with the standard of comments, is not definitive, and is anyway irrelevant to my actions (unless you're demanding that I be clairvoyant). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

For #2, I refer you to common sense; we don't need a numerical limit. One is likely good faith, many is obvious advertising. There is a guideline to leave it on the talk page, but that doesn't justify doing it a large number of times in violation of WP:NOT and WP:EL's other guidelines. Trying to use one guideline to justify violating others is obtuse. And you didn't have to be clairvoyant to know you shouldn't have used admin rollback that many times in this case at least, and that most people would consider it spam. You could have discussed first. Imagine that. - Taxman ^Talk 18:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Technical solution

Allow me to take this opportunity to plug a MediaWiki patch I recently wrote: bug 5523 on bugzilla. This would effectively solve the controversy by allowing links on talk pages to be marked with rel="nofollow" so that they can no longer be used for search engine optimization. Also see (and please participate in) discussion at Wikipedia talk:Spam. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 09:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Troll who attacked Gator1 is back

The user, User:Rose-mary that Gator1 blocked indefinitely (see #User:Gator1) is continuing to post as an anon; today's installment of the dynamic IP is User:80.90.37.251. (Same PoV; yesterday's installment was one of the IPs she used before.) I will submit a request for confirmation to WP:RCU, but if an admin were to handle this difficult case directly, it would be just as well. Septentrionalis 17:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The IP is from Luxembourg, but IIRC the troll was from Belgium. Maybe the troll crossed the border? Johnleemk | Talk 18:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Rather that blocking a whole IP range (the IP is dynamic), I have semi-protected Proto-Ionians. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The IP range appears to be a quite limited number of IP's; for example, yesterday's incarnation 80.90.38.14 (Contributions) was also assigned to Rose-mary back in March. She also left a message on my talkpage; and is editing fairly freely as an anon.

Unfortunately, there are half a dozen pages where Rose-mary would like to insert her favorite author: Phaistos Disc,Phaistos Disc decipherment claims, Pelasgians, Philistines, and so on. Instead of sprotecting all of the articles, would it be possible to put medium term blocks on User:80.90.38.14 and the others (a list of the IP's can be found, probably almost complete, in the history of Phaistos Disc; and no-one else appears to have edited from any of them.) This would compel the troll to get a named, and blockable, account. Septentrionalis 04:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

• Today's installment is 80.90.39.217 (talk · contribs)(edit to my Talk, now reverted). Septentrionalis 13:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Tim!

At 08:00, April 16, 2006 (UTC), I began depopulating three categories using my bot account: Category:Actors and actresses appearing on CSI, Category:Actors and actresses appearing on CSI: Miami, and Category:Actors and actresses appearing on CSI: New York. At 09:16 (UTC), Tim! (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) listed these categories at for deletion review (see WP:DRV#Category:Actors and actresses appearing on CSI, Category:Actors and actresses appearing on CSI: Miami and Category:Actors and actresses appearing on CSI: New York). At 09:38 (UTC), Tim! blocked my bot, saying The category you are depopulating is on deletion review, though he had only listed it there twenty minutes prior to the block, and there was nothing in the CFD backlog page reflecting this, and he made no effort to notify me prior to blocking the bot. Then he performed a mass rollback on the edits my bot had made over the previous two hours. And the whole reasoning behind this is "I do not think they can be considered procedurally valid deletes and the categories were tagged for Renaming and not deletion. Tim! 09:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)" Does this sort of thing happen often around here? This sort of furor might be understandable if he suspected sockpuppetry or other actual disruption was involved in the CFD process (in which I was not involved either), but given the facts, I feel his actions were quite inappropriate. — Apr. 16, '06 [10:29] <freakofnur_xture|talk>

I agree with freakofnurture. The timing is sketchy, and blocking the bot, and then mass reverting it, doesn't seem like the proper response. DR isn't supposed to be a "stay of execution", it's supposed to be a ....."Ok now that we killed it, did we do the right thing?" ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 10:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of any timings issues, for a bot that was producing no more than three edits per minute I would have expected talk first, rather than an out of the blue block. --Alf ^melmac 11:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. That's what I meant by my comment, if it was a little ambiguous.⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 21:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I can see where some of the panic on Tim!'s side comes from: since these were category deletions and not a rename, it would be a complicated process to repopulate the category after it was depopulated. It would either have to be repopulated by going back through Catapult's contributions, or searching the last database dump, or by knowing which actresses and actors had indeed appeared on CSI X of Y. The final point there reminds me that I need to go make this point over on DRV... and I agree that the bot should not have been blocked and reverted. He had all the information he would need to repopulate it from the bot's contributions IF DRV overturned it, but now if it is indeed not kept we will have to rerun whoever's bot on it. --Syrthiss 13:09, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Even if panic were the motivating factor, panic does not excuse inappropriate administrative behavior. ℬastique▼^parℓer♥^voir♑ 13:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree (hopefully that came across in my original statement). I have noted as much on the DRV discussion as well. :) --Syrthiss 13:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be noted that Tim has a strong interest in these categories as he was the creator of many categories in Category:Actors by series and has staunchly defended them in previous cfds. He previously attempted to prevent people voting delete on a rename nomination on similar categories here but was informed that deletion resulting from a rename nomination was an acceptable part of process. Arniep 00:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Tim seems to be acting in an improper manner to protect categories in Category:Actors by series; at 10:26, April 16, Tim speedy closed a cfd on Category:War of the Worlds actors which had 3 delete votes here when it would have been trivial to apply a cfd tag or to at least inform the nominator so they could relist. Arniep 01:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That is not true, the deletion review is to examine the process wherein a category not tagged for deletion may be deleted. If DR rules that it can, then the category will be deleted and no complaints from me. If anyone's action are suspect, they are yours for continuing to campaign for deletion of such categories after the large keep consensus at Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_December_26#Actors_by_series_and_its_sub-categories, another occaision on which categories were not correctly tagged. Tim! 11:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

What a bizarre concept that CFR/CFD regulars decision to delete categories be interupted by people who actually create and use them. I'll just go and vote speedy delete on all articles on WP:RM? There seems to be a rather bad attitude at Categories for deletion that only the regulars of that page know what is best for wikipedia categorisation, and maybe they should read the tag line on the front page "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." CFR/CFD decisions should not be made behind closed doors. Anyone who thought the War of the Worlds nomination could be considered valid is not in the spirit of wikipedia. Calton's grossly uncivil comment ""category not tagged"? Please." exemplifies this. Come on people, wake up. Tim! 07:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where there aren't any closed doors. The discussion of the merits of the category itself (and whether deleting it should stretched into a month-long process-wank) belongs elsewhere, however. What I'd still like to know is why I was given a block and a mass rollback with no prior warning, and with the most ridiculous rationale I've ever seen. Because I follow unambiguous instructions to "empty and delete" several listed categories, some of which you have obviously taken offense to. This concerns me greatly, and my questions at User talk:Tim!#CFD and DRV have not been satisfactorily answered. I believe Tim! feels so strongly about this issue that he would have been blocked me and rolled back my edits just the same if I had done them manually, from my regular account. That, as I mentioned to him, would put things in a completely different perspective, but based on his more recent comments, I fear that Tim considers such perspective to be a personal attack. — Apr. 17, '06 [08:38] <freakofnur_xture|talk>

The bot was blocked for 9 minutes and I immediately left a message on your talk page to let you know the reason for it. The rollbacks were necessary to preserve the category whilst the deletion review was pending. I've already told you that I would not have blocked your non-bot account if you'd been doing the de-population manually. Tim! 11:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This case was originally filed as an arbitration application by Demiurge (talk · contribs). The recommendation of the two arbitrators who have commented, James F., ➥the Epopt, is that there is nothing to arbitrate and that Rms125a@hotmail.com should be banned by acclamation.

There follows excerpted information from Demiurge's application:

Rms125a@hotmail.com, and his various sockpuppets and anonymous IP addresses, has persistently and blatantly breached several Wikipedia policies, including WP:NPA, WP:NPOV, WP:3RR and WP:SOCK.

User conduct RfC at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Rms125a@hotmail.com. Was certified by 6 other users and my summary was endorsed by 5 other outside users.

Problematic behaviour includes inserting virulent anti-Irish/anti-Catholic/anti-Croatian POV into articles, vitriolic personal abuse, revert wars and a wide array of sockpuppets. A user conduct RfC was filed, but the user flatly denied all wrongdoing and the sockpuppetry and aggressive POV editing continued. Examples of each category of disputed behaviour (much more evidence and examples provided in the RfC):

• WP:NPA: "You are an Irish Catholic fifth columnist parasite who has no business being anywhere in the UK. Stay in the country to which you owe your loyalty, and tell Camillus the same thing." "Too fucking bad, IGNORAMUS. DROP DEAD, DAGO -- GO BACK TO ITALY AN DSEE IF YOU CAN KEEP THE LANGUAGE ALIVE, OR BETTER YET LEARN ALBANIAN"
• WP:NPOV: "'Scot' is applied equally to all inhabitants regardless of their ancestral ethnicity, ... unlike the racist Hibernians who do not accept anyone who arrived with or after the Normans to be truly Irish."
• WP:SOCK: A large number of usernames and anonymous IP addresses which all share the same POV, same editing quirks, and the same turns of phrase. See Category:Wikipedia:Suspected_sockpuppets_of_Rms125a@hotmail.com. Just one example: "he carries censorship in his very DNA, and it is always his first instinct" by Brandubh Blathmac vs. "It is Demiurge who is the censor; it is his DNA and his every instinct" by Rms125a@hotmail.com. More evidence of sockpuppetry can be found on the RfC talk page.
• WP:3RR: "Demiurge--stay out of it--I'm just going to come back during or after the block and rv everything"
• WP:BLOCK: sockpuppet account "Mick Derrig" used to evade block

The user has not responded to the application for arbitration. I am notifying both him and Demiurge of this procedure. --Tony Sidaway 13:19, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

His response the RfC seems to be one of those classic examples of where an RfC response just shows that everything in the complaint is valid. I don't understand why this guy hasn't gotten indef blocked a while ago. JoshuaZ 14:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

He's been blocked at least three times for violating 3RR, once by myself. That's all I know of this case, but if the Arbitration Committee feels confident that the user needs to be banned, then I will support that decision. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 14:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and indefinitely blocked him. If ArbCom won't bother with the guy, we shouldn't waste our time on him either. --Cyde Weys 15:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

• User has returned as 67.101.79.171 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), as shown by this edit and this personal attack. Demiurge 22:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

TruthCrusader (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Arbitrator Jdforrester (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) warned TruthCrusader for this personal attack. TruthCrusader removed the comment. Freakofnurture (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) restored it. TruthCrusader reverted. I restored it and added my two cents. TruthCrusader removed the comments again. ESkog (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) then reverted, saying in his edit summary: "rv - per WP:VAND, you are not to remove warnings from your talk page. Work it out with the editor who posted the warning if you feel it was in error." TruthCrusader then reverted with the edit summary: "I have the RIGHT to remove what i feel is harrassment from my userpage. There are many many others who do the same and do NOT get blocked or lectured to. When you reach a common policy call me." Around this time, freakofnurture and Jdforrester blocked TruthCrusader. I don't pretend to speak on behalf of other admins, but I for one welcome a review of my actions in what is obviously a heated dispute. A couple of us -- me and freakofnurture -- used rollback to restore the warning -- so there's definitely quite a bit of administrative stuff going on here. Johnleemk | Talk 16:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit conflict]

I suppose that I shouldn't have blocked given that I warned him (violation of my own ruling, amongst other things ;-)), but I got fed up. Sorry, all; will try better.

James F. (talk) 16:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I was about to warn him myself. This seems perfectly in order. Mackensen (talk) 16:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

He was blocked while I was reviewing his edits and preparing a pretty stern warning. I've told him I want him to clean up his act or Wikipedia probably won't want him as a contributor any more. If he keeps it up over the next week or so, I'll probably recommend a long block, or perhaps an indefinite one. His userpage, some of his recent edits elsewhere, and edits by a suspected sock of his all contain extreme personal attacks on Chad Bryant and he hasn't edit an article in a month. --Tony Sidaway 17:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Probably want to sprotect the page if it gets sockvandaled, too. Isopropyl 17:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I see no impropriety here. A "common policy", eh? I hope he isn't waiting by the phone. I wouldn't describe removal of warnings as vandalism (see this discussion), but that doesn't make it ok in a case like this. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

User:TruthCrusader wrote to me to complain about his block. Here's the response I sent him:

Removing comments, especially good faith warnings from administrators regarding your conduct, from your userpage, especially with offensive edit summaries, interferes with the proper functioning of Wikipedia and is incivil, and may lead to blocking. If you disagree with a conduct warning placed on your user talk page, the proper response is to politely discuss the issue with the administrator in question, not to remove it with an edit summary that clearly indicates that you reject the allegation that your conduct was inappropriate.

Try not being a WP:DICK; you'll get better mileage on Wikipedia if you try to refrain from dickish behavior.

Kelly Martin (talk) 17:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I do disagree with this course of action. There is no reason to continue hounding someone after the initial warning and thus it amounts to little more than harassment. Seriously, what beneficial purpose is served? Informing the person that their action was inapropriate? Already accomplished by the initial warning.

The WP:VAND policy allows vandalism warnings to be restored, and only vandalism warnings, because there are progressive levels of them leading up to a block and common procedures in place about warnings. Forcing a user to maintain a NPA, edit warring, or other warning in perpetuity on their talk page is the equivalent of imposing a scarlet letter / public humiliation. You made your point, they read it, case closed. There is no call to keep reposting the potentially embarassing note, threatening the user for removing it, or tossing in personal attacks in return.

If we do want to apply the scarlet letter principle then the user is right... the policy should be changed to say so. For the record, our documentation currently states that removing such warnings without a reply may be considered 'hostile' or 'uncivil'... "However, reverting such removals or redirects is not proper and may result in a block for edit warring." So... considered yourselves all 'warned' for "not proper" edit warring. I'd put the warnings on your user pages, but then they might have to stay there forever and Kelly might call me a WP:DICK... because that's always helpful. --CBDunkerson 13:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Have you looked at his overall conduct? I fear that if you're focusing solely on whether removing the notice was appropriate you may not have examined his extremely uncivil general conduct. --Tony Sidaway 17:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, here I was 'focusing solely on whether removing (and re-adding) the notice was appropriate'... since that was the issue in question. At the user's talk page, on the other hand, I attempted (likely unsuccessfully) to get him to understand that his bad behaviour was the cause of his problems. On the DRV for the templates which set this whole thing in motion I've been arguing against his claim that 'the userboxes in question are not divisive' (paraphrased without the swearing) and saying that I feel they should therefor be deleted under T1... even though I also strongly believe that T1 is a bad idea on free speech grounds. I think I've got 'the big picture' here, but I've seldom (possibly never) seen an instance where one thing was 100% to blame with no other problems. --CBDunkerson 21:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

User247 (talk · contribs)

User:User247, who is also editing from an anonymous IP address User:24.7.141.159, is making multiple personal attacks, especially against User:Timothy Usher and myself and routinely accuses us of attacking him. In addition, User247 uses his userpage to describe comments made on his talk page as "attacks non-Muslim editors are willing to resort to in the hopes of censoring any constructive discussion of Islam." Examples of personal attacks, uncivil remarks, and miscellaneous accusations:

• "You got owned."[63]
• "...this proves how paranoid you two idiots are."[64]
• "The two of you have spent far too much time trying to tear me down."[65]
• "I understand from all your postings attacking me that you are threatened by my presence and knowledge."[66]
• "Are you hitting on me again?"[67]
• "You consider it lying because you can't accept the fact you could never do it."[68]
• "I'm bothered by the presence of a concerted war against Muslim editors on Wikipedia..."[69]
• "I'd like to add a few more users who showed up recently into the same boat as MOU for being unproductive non-sense creators."[70]

Pecher ^Talk 19:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

User247 also creates section headings on his talk page to attack other users:

• "User:Timothy_Usher attacks again"[71]
• "User:Timothy_Usher attacks me again" [72]

Pecher ^Talk 20:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

It's my talk page and you two need to stop your attacks. Thanks for trying. 24.7.141.159 03:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That seems both out of context and less pressing. I think that both you and Timothy Usher should take your accusations against the user as a sock/meat puppet to more suitable (and coherent) channels. A well-organized, contextual user conduct RfC would be the first step. El_C 21:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

You may also opt for WP:RFCU. Please give the interaction with the user him/herself involving these accusations a rest, though. El_C 21:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I shall.

It now appears this user has decided to take it outside wikipedia, attacking wikipedia generally and singling me out by name, with a helpful link to my user talk page [73].

For what it's worth, the "censorship" to which he refers was an attempted removal of personal attacks as per WP:RPA (since then I've come to understand that WP:RPA is not generally supported or advised), whereupon this user solicited Katefan0 to protect the page..Timothy Usher 22:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't post on Slashdot and never have. Please stop the false accusations. 24.7.141.159 03:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

While he claimed on my talk page that the Slashdot post had been “forwarded to [him]”[74], there can be no doubt that this user posted it himself, as established by (for starters) the following points of theme and style:

• “critical of his position”

Slashdot poster: “A look at the talk page [wikipedia.org] shows a particular editor by the name of Timothy Usher [wikipedia.org] has censored comments on the talk page critical of his position.”[75]

Hrana98: “It's disappointing to see that you haven't stopped attack people critical of your position.” [76]][[77]

User247:“...User:Timothy_Usher has been attacking any editor critical of his position...”, “...if any editor contributes a comment critical of his position...” [78]

24.7.141.159: “User:Timothy Usher has been editing comments critical of his position...” [79]

“User: Timothy Usher is deleting comments critical of his position...” [80]

• “feels right”

Slashdot poster: “These articles cannot be considered reliable sources of information and an open-letter is set to be released criticizing Wikipedia's policies of letting editors with negative agendas litter articles on Islam with what "feels right" instead of the facts.”[81]

24.7.141.159: “Unfortunately, in Wikipedia we go with facts, not just what feels right.” [82]

“...not because it was factually wrong but because it didn't "feel right" to other editors.” [83]

“...instead adopting whatever FEELS right to you” [84]Timothy Usher 23:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't post on Slashdot. If someone has decided to do this then maybe you should take it up with them. 24.7.141.159 03:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds pretty trollish to me, and he responded to an NPA warning with threats to 'file complaints'. --InShaneee 23:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

True. The backstory is described pretty well on Slashdot.org posting. Although I should mention that both Timothy Usher and Pecher have been lobbing attacks at editors who were critical of what they believe. It actually qualifies as bullying and borderline psychological terrorism. As editors we either agree with those two or we suffer the consequences. I'd like to remind you that these two fired the first shots on my user page and I'm disappointed with the Admins responses to this harassment so far. 24.7.141.159 03:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

My mistake for not signing with my user name. I also want to note this attack on me is in retribution to this posting. [85]. User timothy usher and pecher have been tag teaming anyone and everyone they don't like. The similarities in their behavior makes it seem like Timothy Usher and Pecher are sockpuppets in violation of WP:SOCK User247 03:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

To further support my claims. User:Timothy_Usher labeled me a murderer when I refused to agree with his position [86] This was in response to him falsely labeling me an Islamist on those talk pages. Other users have been very critical of this user as well. [87]. I find it amazing that they always work hand-in-hand. Again, this is in retribution to my earlier posting and reporting of User:Timothy_Usher. User247 03:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Lastly, the Talk:Islamism page was protected because User:Timothy_Usher was removing people's comments. The Administrators agreed this was non-sense. I certainly hope we come together as a community to rid our community of any editors that follow the lead of these two. Not acting upon this will set the wrong example and severely compromise the legitimacy of Wikipedia. Let me know what I can do to help take action against these two. User247 03:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

To whom it may concern:

I was alerted to this incident on my talk page and wanted to submit a letter I had been preparing detailing the actions of these two users. I only ask for your consideration.

My overall impression of both "Timothy Usher" and "Pecher" is one of growing annoyance at their heavy handed tactics against anyone who questions their established paradigms against Islam. Recently, Timothy Usher has taken part of multiple campaigns against any user he deems fit to attack. It started above when he lobbed insults and accusations at "Deuterium" [/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Deuterium]. Anyone that made the error of contributing an opinion was labeled a sock puppet of Deuterium and sucked into this war. I completely understand why so many editors have avoided commenting on this troubled username, but by ignoring the problem things have gotten worse.

At one point in this protracted battle, "Timothy Usher" had falsely claimed I was 4 different users. His only evidence was English phrases he deemed to be similar. Colloquial English has a very limited set of common phrases people tend to use over and over in casual speech and discussion. This evidence alone cannot be a grounds for a substantive accusation any more than hearsay can be admitted into a court room. Had the users in question been using esoteric terminology it would have strengthen the case but even then examination of IP addresses was a better solution. Although the IP address clearly showed, after I geo-located them, that it was next to impossible for me to be 400 and 1800 miles away from my university. This absolved me of any claims that I had been any of these users and he quickly dropped this line of attack on the notice board. He didn't respond to my sincere desire to understand why he felt it necessary to involve me in his attacks. This, however, wasn’t the end of this user’s attacks or his desire to recruit others to carry out his agenda.

After viewing a private web forum discussion talking about Wikipedia editors leading wars against other users, it came to my attention that editor comments were being censored on a Wikipedia talk page. Although I was hesitant at first to be bothered to participate, I pulled out my old username that I hadn’t used in months in an attempt to correct this serious offense. I began by asking Timothy Usher to stop this violation of our community policies. Only after he kept violating these basic rules that I asked Administrators to protect the Islamism talk page. Timothy Usher at the time had created an anonymous sock puppet from IP address 67.188.110.197 that he used to make is sound like he had a lot of support on his side. He knowingly changed his grammatical style to hide this fact and carried on reverting articles and lobbing criticism. This can easily be seen by examining that IP's contributions [88] coming about right when the Islamism debate heated up.

Timothy Usher and Pecher’s violations are too numerous to list but there are quite a few notable events. Timothy Usher has compared other editors to murderers [89] and has grossly violated WP:NPA on the Islamism talk page multiple times. A glance over at User_talk:User247 and my own talk page shows "Timothy Usher" starting his accusations against both of us to somehow be sock puppets of each other [90]. I decided to largely ignore him while User247 decided to defend himself. Further examination of User247's talk page shows "Pecher" coming to the aid of "Timothy Usher" with his own accusations of User247 being yet another editor named "MuslimsofUmreka." This accusation was quickly countered by "Timothy Usher" and both of them agreed to concentrate their attacks on both myself and User247.

I am now seeing a Slashdot comment discussing a long history of this epic battle. Where this came from is beyond my knowledge but I would not put it beyond Timothy Usher and Pecher to write such a diatribe to further their ends. Quite honestly, this entire incident is growing to be an embarrassment for the community. I, too, am finding these attacks are unwarranted and becoming tiresome. I don’t try to focus on Wikipedia too much because my studies keep me very busy. However, I can attest to the fact that all the regular editors over at the Islamism article have left due to the events that have taken place since Timothy Usher arrived. Regardless of my personal opinions on the article, we cannot afford to drive out content creators and editors because of the actions of users such as Timothy Usher and Pecher.

"Timothy Usher" and his friend "Pecher" (anyone else think they are the same person?), have a fair bit of trouble getting along with people. I also firmly agree with the sentiment that this complaint is in retribution for the Administrator Notice against User "Timothy Usher" not too far above. Maybe its time we, as a community, ask Timothy Usher and Pecher to start abiding by our rules of conduct. If they cannot follow these rules, then they should have the option of not contributing any longer. We cannot make exceptions for any editor who wastes limited Wiki resources of prosecuting an agenda war because the casualties are editors who have made this place as great as it is. I appreciate your time and consideration on this matter. I look forward to proper measures being taken so this never happens again from these two user accounts.

Although I know that my comment will open me up to an assault of name calling, false accusations, and belligerent commentary in gross violation of WP:Civility and WP:NPA from both of these users and those who support them, this is the right thing to do. Hrana98 04:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds pretty much like an open letter promised on Slashdot.[91] Pecher ^Talk 08:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

User:hrana98 was right about being accused wrongly. From Slashdot: ...Wikipedia's articles on Islam are tainted with negative propoganda... an open-letter is set to be released criticizing Wikipedia's policies of letting editors with negative agendas litter articles on Islam with what "feels right" instead of the facts. The letter above details both of your positions and does not mention the validity of Islam articles. Why are you twisting his words? User247 17:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

So it does.

• ”...in the hope[s] of having [me] banned.”

Slashdot poster: “...in the hopes of having the account banned.”[92]

Hrana98: “...in hope of having me banned.”[93]Timothy Usher 08:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

At least the Administrators can see that hrana98's letter is fact. From above: "Timothy Usher" had falsely claimed I was 4 different users. His only evidence was English phrases he deemed to be similar. ... This evidence alone cannot be a grounds for a substantive accusation any more than hearsay can be admitted into a court room. Why do you persist on your little Crusade? User247 17:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Some comments this 24.7.141.159/128.97.247.141 had made on Talk:Islamism before I’d ever seen his user name(s):

Re Vector4F:

• “A reading of this talk page clearly shows that Vector4F has an axe to grind against proponents of Islam.” [94]

To Graft:

• “Ignoring this fact shows that you have never bothered picking up a translation for the Qur'an and are just ignorantly spewing non-sense on these pages.” [95]

• “Graft, knowledge is an amazing thing and it would be in your best interest to go learn something before preaching ignorance here.” [96]

• “I hate to burst your bubble but...”, “I find your desire to differentiate Hasan al-Banna from Mrs. Bhutto to also be ignorant.”, “Have a good day.” [97]

To ObsidianOrder:

• “Umm, I don't mean to be disrespectful but you are completely clueless with this statement”, “Unfortunately, your comment is rather ignorant and uninformed. I'm not going to sit here and try to educate you on where you are wrong because Google has ample amounts of information.”, “Again ignorance.”, “Please, life the blinders off your eyes.”, “It seems like you have a knowledge gap that needs to close before we can have a productive conversation.”, “Have a good day.” [98]
• “Furthermore, judging by your previous contributions to Wikipedia, it is no surprise that you have an agenda to paint Islamic political ideologies in a negative light.”[99]
• “It seems like s/he has a knowledge gap and an unwillingness to read the previous discussion on point s/he is bringing up.” [100]

All the preceding having nothing to do with me, much less Pecher, except to the degree that I'd felt offended at the tenor of discussion on the talk page, and the way in which this user was attempting to intimidate and dominate others through a relentlessly personalized dialogue predicated on the nefarious motives and/or abject ignorance of his fellow editors.Timothy Usher 13:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

In his latest edit of Talk:Islamism, User:User247 has taken another editor’s comments (so they surely were) [101] and interpolated his own to alter the intended meaning of the passage [102]Timothy Usher 00:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I wrote this to El_C on my talk page and I'm putting it here for record... Was that a comment or was it an introduction? I assumed it was an introduction to the talk page because it was not signed and was residing above everything but just below the notices. If it was a comment then by all means revert it or I can revert it myself. I had no ill intentions whatsoever. I suppose I became confused due to the location and lack of signature. You are welcome to check my other contributions because I never edit/censor people's comments. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

To Timothy_Usher... please assume "good faith" as per Wikipedia policies. As you already know, I never revert or censor people's comments like you have repeatedly done in the past. I'm sure you can remember when the Islamism talk page was locked because of your censorship. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you are just hunting for anything to accuse me with.

Also for records sake this is what I am hoping to achieve (as posted on hrana98's talk page)... I think I am more than willing to overlook Timothy Ushers accusations of calling me an Islamist, a murderer and his constant harassment without any conditions if El_C continues doing the great job he/she is. Everyone has been asking you to abide by the rules, stop the revert wars, stop the harassment and name calling, stop using multiple sockpuppets, stop pushing your negative agenda against Islam, stop the meaningless argument, stop censoring people's comments, stop banning users who don't agree with you, stop asking for Administrators to ban anyone you happen to not like, stop labeling me a sockpuppet of another user without proof, changing your negative attitude, etc. I'm asking the same. User247 06:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• “I'm going to go out on a limb and say...”

User247: “I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you are just hunting for anything to accuse me with.” [103]

Hrana98: “I'm going to go out on a limb and say both of you are the same person.” [104]Timothy Usher 07:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Let me redirect you to the above comment I posted (please check the time stamp): At least the Administrators can see that hrana98's letter is fact. From above: "Timothy Usher" had falsely claimed I was 4 different users. His only evidence was English phrases he deemed to be similar. ... This evidence alone cannot be a grounds for a substantive accusation any more than hearsay can be admitted into a court room. Why do you persist on your little Crusade? User247 17:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC) You prove my point again. User247 21:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

GNAA AfDs

Seriously, this is getting out of hand. I've created Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gay Nigger Association of America (16th nomination), Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gay Nigger Association of America (16th nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gay Nigger Association of America 16, Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gay Nigger Association of America 16 as redirects and protected all of them so that it doesn't happen again for a short while. This is only temporary. Any objections?. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 23:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

You'll just end up with "GNAA 17", or "GNAA 16.1", or, my preferred WP:BEANS entry, "GNAA sixteen". (And people will think you're just trying to influence the pool, if and when it starts up.) JDoorjam Talk 00:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You know, on the other hand, whose to say the nominations aren't or won't be coming from GNAA members? "Bad faith" nominations being closed as speedy keep, the article becoming "untouchable" in terms of deletions, they've got themselves a permanent place in Wikipedia haven't they? I'd suggest a 6 month break with a guaranteed relisting on 17th October 2006. Protect it until then and speedy close all nominations in the meantime. --kingboyk 00:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

My concern is that, as soon as it's off parole, it will immediately be AfD'd (by a GNAA member if no one else). What I propose is that we adopt the following two rules:

1. The next AfD must be Gay Nigger Association of America 16.
2. All other nominations will not be considered; in fact, they will be speedy deleted as trolling/vandalism.
3. GNAA 16 will only be unlocked after gaining consensus on the GNAA talk page that a new, never-before-considered argument as to why the GNAA is non-notable is possibly persuasive (e.g., User:Linuxbeak realizes and convinces us all that the GNAA is, in fact, merely a Mefloquine-induced nightmare).

Or, boiled down to its core, Deletion of the GNAA must be discussed on the talk page, and a consensus must be built there that its deletion in AfD 16 is plausible given new arguments demonstrating its non-notability.

In this manner, we're not preventing AfD, or treating the symptoms (frivolous AfDs) without addressing the problem (the act of frivolously nominating it for deletion); we're merely raising the bar to its use. JDoorjam Talk 01:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as all the recent noms have come from people who are either making their first edits, or nearly their first... it's almost certain they're sockpuppets or have been told what to do (all the noms also have similar tones, to me at least). So I thought it was a given that these noms are by people who claim to be GNAA or support GNAA or whatever. --W.marsh 01:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop screwing around. Speedy keep any afds just like you would if someone afded George W. Bush. Don't ever list it on afd again. The page existing does nothing to the site, attempting to delete it hurts the site. --Phroziac ♥♥♥♥ 14:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I've got a better idea. Create a few plausible next nomination pages, and speedy delete any nominations for the next six months. Thereafter, the behaviour will revert to normal. Werdna648^T/_C\^@ 02:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this comment. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 17:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The best solution (found The Hard Way by trial and error) is to redirect all such nominations to the same page, the 15th is as good as any I guess. Kim Bruning 17:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Guess who

SPUI is firing up the move wars again, [105] [106] which would seem to require that he be immediately blocked in compliance with Zscout370's injunction from March 24, although given the history of this fracas my words may well fall on deaf ears. In any event, if SPUI isn't blocked for this I'll assume that means I can move the pages back without being blocked myself... thanks for your time, have a nice day. phh 00:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I would block him, but as I am an active participant in the battle, it would be against WP:BLOCK. Admrb♉ltz ( T | I | E ) 01:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

For the last time, sysops did not arbitrarily create new policy on AN/I, there is no "Zscout370 'injunction'". —Locke Cole • t • c 13:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't count unless Curps blocks SPUI for pagemoves :-P Cyde Weys 01:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That ain't happening - I'm doing maybe one or two per day. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 01:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Deaf ears indeed! Okay, well, I guess I'll go move the pages back, then. I can't help but think that there must have been a better way to resolve this. But whatever. --phh 18:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there consensus to move them back? There may not have been consensus to move to begin with, but warring over this is not productive. Presumably SPUI had a reason for the move; has this reason been discussed? KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Many, many attempts have been made to discuss these matters with SPUI. He has repeatedly made clear his intent to ignore any conventions or decisions that he does not personally agree with, and has disrupted literally hundreds of pages toward that end. To answer your question directly: His reasons have indeed been discussed, he has repeatedly failed to obtain consensus for the moves, and he doesn't care.

I agree that move warring is not productive. As I said before, I can't help but think that there must have been a better way to resolve this. --phh 20:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it actually warring if no consensus is reachable? JohnnyBGood t c 21:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Zephram Stark sockpuppet

Consider Dowieite (talk · contribs). Edits at Propellor shaft, Sigmund and the Sea Monsters, etc, etc reverting back to versions by previous sockpuppets. --JW1805 (Talk) 02:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

• Restoring posts by previous sockpuppet. It's the long edit summaries that give him away everytime... Someone ban, please.--JW1805 (Talk) 04:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Done the easy part, as usual. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

User:MONGO block of User:Striver

Administrator MONGO (talk · contribs) has had a long running conflict with (and clearly often legitimate issues regarding) Striver (talk · contribs) (Striver RFC against JerseyDevil (talk · contribs), numerous Articles for Deletion, etc). Yesterday, Striver launched a moderate personal attack on MONGO [107] which MONGO responded to by blocking Striver for 24 hrs User talk:Striver#Blocked for 24 hours. I believe this block was in violation of the WP Administrator code of conduct regarding not blocking editors you're in a personal dispute with Wikipedia:Administrator Code of Conduct#Blocking " An admin should not block a user if they are not neutral with respect to that user, or have a conflict of interest. ". MONGO is not responding well to my having pointed it out (see User talk:MONGO#Latest Striver block) and told me to RFC him. As there's a user block involved I think I need to ANI it.

I have two requests for one or more neutral uninvolved admins to review:

One, is MONGO's 24 hour block of Striver an appropriate sanction given the nature of [108] ? Striver's comment was clearly an inappropriate personal attack; my question is whether it rose to the level of requiring, justifying, or mandating a block in response, or not.

Two, is it appropriate for MONGO to continue using administrative blocks against Striver given the long history of content and other disputes (which I believe are clearly non-neutral relations between them), or should he have asked for a neutral administrator?

Georgewilliamherbert 05:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that Georgewilliamherbert has a long standing tradition of protecting Striver, even when all others feel that Striver is violating numerous policies. I cannot ceased to be amazed why some folks defend those whose primary contributions violate WP:POINT, WP:FORK, WP:NPA and a slew of other areas. It should also be noted by the numerous others that have contacted Striver on his talk page, that I am most certainly not alone in my disputes with Striver. admonished for nominating other articles after one of his got deleted, soliciting Afd votes from those that favor his POV, told to stop vandalizing articles, using his talk page as a message board to misrepresent others, asked to not spam for votes, asked to not overemphasize trivialities, asked to not violate POINT, questioned about Forking articles to fit his POV, cautioned about violation POINT, again, discussion about spamming for Afd votes, another editor asks him to not spam him about Afd's, asked to not use false edit summaries, and of course...this is just the very tip of the iceberg.--MONGO 07:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I have also admonished him several times when I saw him clearly do something wrong, in my opinion, including over this incident (see User talk:Striver#Blocked for 24 hours), and I'm not questioning that he does a lot of stuff which is at least mildly disruptive or abusive. The question is, do you, MONGO, still have a sufficiently neutral opinion and position to be able to fairly and non-abusively judge whether administrative blocks are appropriate for specific grey-area / relatively minor abuses, or not? I don't think you do. I don't think I'm completely unbiased here, either, which is why I'm ANI asking for neutral administrator review. If you want to RFC or file for Arbitration on Striver, feel free... that's not an abuse of administrator power, anyone could do it, and lord knows enough people are frustrated with him. But using the administrator block powers against administrator policy (or, at least borderline) may not be an appropriate response by you against his abuses. This would have been avoided if you'd pointed out his personal attack and asked a neutral admin to respond, as policy says you should. Which is what we're doing now.

If you think that you can do no wrong in combating Striver's abuses... then you do have a problem with abusing administrator powers. Striver has to type a lot to annoy or abuse people. You have a convenient button at a level he can't get at. Two wrongs don't make a right. Georgewilliamherbert 08:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

There comes a point that some editors do indeed exhaust the communities patience. Your opinion is noted.--MONGO 08:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

If he's really exhausted the communities patience, and not just yours, why not file Req for Arbitration and moot this question of whether you are neutral or not by getting an Arbcom ruling? Or a RfC? Georgewilliamherbert 17:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Striver means well, and has made positive contributions, but it's clear to me that he now does more harm than good. He has a long history of personnal attacks, POV pushing, vote solicitation, content forking, and generating lame 'articles' to make a point. Is MONGO's 24 hour block warranted? Sure; If I hadn't been on a Wikibreak I would have seen the attack and blocked him myself. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

If it makes anyone feel better I will go and re-block him myself. Striver is nothing but a constant irritant these days. Just zis Guy you know? 10:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll volunteer to act as a second admin opinion in future situations where MONGO is considering using admin in regards to Striver if MONGO asks me to, but think MONGO is responsible, from what I've seen, in his adminship, and I don't think that this block was particularly inappropriate. If Striver insists on continuing to violate WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA policies on an admin and that admin blocks him, that's simply an unwise course of action by Striver, IMO. JDoorjam Talk 14:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that admins should avoid conflicts of interest (real or imagined) whenever possible. However, I too see nothing wrong with the block in this case. This particular personal attack was mild, but it's hardly an isolated incident. I also note that MONGO left a note on the talk page explaining the reasons for the block (including the ongoing pattern of disruption), as any good admin should. Saying that it's automatically wrong for the recipient of a personal attack to block is not something I can condone. As long as our admins are reasonably responsible, there's no need to tie their hands quite that much. I see nothing in MONGO's actions here that looks inappropriate to me. Friday (talk) 14:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The last thing I wish is an appearance of unilateralism in my actions. While I do not believe that I acted wrongly, I'll work ahrd to ensure others don't feel that I violate any policies.--MONGO 05:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Person claiming to have done illegal activity

I am somewhat concerned about User:C0ldpr0xy. His user page claims that he has done illegal activity and I think that this might cause problems for him and possibly for Wikipedia, even if it was a joke. I posted a message on his talk page but he didn't respond and he posted an article about someone named Jeton Ramadani, who also apparently did illegal hacking activities, which I deleted because it seemed to be a hoax. Does anything need to be done about this? Academic Challenger 07:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that unless he is completely irrational he is just posting stuff that isn't true for inexplicable reasons.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't really care one way or another, let's not let this escalate into something stupid. Ignore it, move on. — Apr. 17, '06 [08:05] <freakofnur_xture|talk>

Given that there is no "US National Bank" we can conclude that its not a real concern. Whether the user is bothing to contribute to Wikipedai is a different matter, and we should presumably keep an eye on him. JoshuaZ 12:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, there WAS a "United States National Bank", but that was in 1885... so I don't think it's in any danger. :) Never Cry Wolf 12:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

How ignorant for you to say that Wolf! Have you not heard of a little invention called oh what was it?... OH YEAH, THE TIME MACHINE!- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 12:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Guys, this is obviously fake: if he'd really stolen $500 (accurate to six significant figures, apparently) from the United States National Bank, using his computer and a time machine, he would have referred to himself as a hax0r, not a hacker. Further, there is no mention that he is an "3117 71m3 7r@ve113r". He also would have referred to his activities as "rox0r", and the bank's security as "teh sux0r". Without these tell-tale signs, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that this is a false claim. JDoorjam Talk 14:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It's obvious from the above evidence that this young man must be in possesion of a time machine. The prudent course of action is to not needlessly offend him or he could go back in time and kill us as infants.

Yes I did think it was somwhat odd when my parents disappeared in a puff of smoke this morning- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 02:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

JDoorjam, much as I respect you, I must humbly disagree. If he were that good, wouldn't he refer to himself as "3|33+ +1|\/|3 +|2@\/3113|2"? KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

im in ur past, killing ur p4rentz. -- 9rm_wn0r 16:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Canderous Ordo

This user appears to be a sockpuppet of about a hundred long term abuse vandals.[109]; but it appears that he, himself, has added them. It was then removed; but his edits closely resemble that of the Communist Vandal:[110] [111] and [112]. I have blocked him for 48 hours for such vandalism. So is he, as he says he is, a long term abuse vandal? Thanks, Kilo-Lima|^(talk) 14:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks like he's a troll at best. He's done nothing productive in his short time here: I'd support an indefinite block. JDoorjam Talk 14:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

He's a Johnny the Vandal sock. I thought I got him the last time through (his obsession with Mike Garcia is a JTV trademark, and JtV has been impersonating Communism recently). Block him and salt the earth. Syrthiss 14:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

He's impersonating the communist vandal? How can you tell its JtV? Or mayhaps they are the same? The Minister of War ^(Peace) 14:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, maybe its the other way around. Ordo is listed on WP:JtV from back in march. Doesn't matter which is impersonating which, though. Both are suffering under an indef block deathmark. Syrthiss 14:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, since we've established that he is a sockpuppet, I have blocked him indef. Thanks for your help, Kilo-Lima|^(talk) 14:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

User:207.172.220.7

This appears to be an open proxy IP; see User talk:207.172.220.7. It's been used abusively, too. Mangojuice 14:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Wik / NoPuzzleStranger / Kelmor

after User:Kelmor as been labeled as Sock puppet of Wik, there is now Darkman201 (Special:Contributions/Darkman201) making claims that Kelmor made and before Kelmor NoPuzzleStranger made. [113] Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Range block imposed on 128.239.0.0/16

Due to an organized program of vandalism across multiple Wikimedia projects, 128.239.0.0/16 (assigned to William and Mary College) has been indefinitely blocked, per order of Danny under WP:OFFICE. This block will be removed when the situation has been resolved. Please do not unblock this range without consulting either myself or Danny. You may refer questions to myself or to Danny. We apologize for the (significant) collateral damage. Kelly Martin (talk) 18:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

So WP:OFFICE can block for vandalism now? Nothing on Wikipedia:Long term abuse So I assume whatever it is hasn't hit en.wikpedia yet of if it has it doesn't register above backgroud. Blocking for vandalism makes no sense withing the preview of WP:OFFICE since it is something any admin can do. I any case it would be nice if danny listed this at WP:OFFICE. We had enough missunderstandings lately without adding to them.Geni 18:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is extensive vandalism on enwiki from this group as well; it's just been better controlled. The project-wide block is as much to get the attention of administrators at M&W as it is to halt the vandalism. Kelly Martin (talk) 21:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Oooh, AOL next! --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 22:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, I oppose big blocks like this, but folks need to go over to cat:csd and start cleaning out the Augean stables. Those turkeys managed to leave a lot of poop, and if that many CSD's got tagged, you can imagine how many got deleted by admins watching recent changes and new pages. We are really getting a deluge just now, so everyone grab some hip waders and get in there. Geogre 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC) (And I've smothered about 40 of them today so far.)

Dont say the words "Augean stables" and "smothered" in the same breath! of course then I just went and said them... --Syrthiss 03:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

If more folks don't get in there at the CSD backlog, I shall mix more metaphors until they do! :-) Geogre 10:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I have unblocked the range by the direct request of Danny. Certain events today have led to the identies of the vandals, and apparently they have appoligzed to Danny via email. --lightdarkness ^(talk) 03:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This "WP:OFFICE" thing is getting out of hand. This is a community project. Problems need to be aired -- not dealt with in secret. --FOo 05:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't really a "WP:OFFICE" sort of thing, all the information was discussed on IRC since it was easier to pass along the information. --lightdarkness ^(talk) 07:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but posting to AN/I hardly sounds like handling it in secret. A reason was given, mass vandalism across multiple projects, it is clear that action is being taken to resolve the situation, Kelly has apologised for the temporary inconvenience. What are we supposed to do, let them continue to run riot? Just zis Guy you know? 10:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The original reason wasn't credible. The fact is no mention of this group appeared in any of the places serious vandalism is recorded.Geni 12:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Geni, would you care to admit that things go on that you, personally, are not necessarily informed about? The bulk of the vandalism took place on minor wikis such as Choctaw and Hawaiian; some of these projects were completely vandalized (every or nearly every page touched). I'm sorry if you think that we have to talk to you before we can take reasonable action to protect the project, but that's not the way it works. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Please don't create strawmen.Geni 15:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Er, I thought that here was one of the places that serious vandalism is discussed and dealt with...? Kelly reported that the block was placed because of an 'organized program of vandalism across multiple Wikimedia projects', and provided instructions for admins with questions ('You may refer questions to myself or to Danny'). I don't see anything on Kelly's talk page; if you were concerned about the reason for the block, did you try asking her or Danny why they felt such action was necessary? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that WP:OFFICE actions were open to questioning. Or more correctly that there was any expectation that such questions can be answered. WP:OFFICE does not in any case cover blocks. Further more the general understanding is that office actions will be carried out for legal reasons. With mentions of office but no mentions of legal threats and the vandlaism on en haveing not significantly registered above background you can see why the intial explanation has credibity issues. The get the attention of administrators at M&W explantion makes more sense.Geni 15:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Danny has the authority to act on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, who, as you may have forgotten, OWNS the computers that Wikipedia runs on. His instructions are to be respected. If you are not interested in doing that, resign your adminship. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Please can you stop presenting strawmen. In any case I'd argue it is enough that his actions be tollerated.Geni 16:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If you want to remain an admin on Wikipedia, you will not contravene Danny's express instructions. I think that's clear enough for you not to smell strawmen. If you have questions about something Danny's done or that someone else has done at his direction, I suggest that you raise those concerns privately. WP:OFFICE actions frequently involve sensitive matters which should not be aired publicly. It would be best if all admins would do their best not to interfere with the Foundation's management of such issues. Finally, WP:OFFICE covers whatever Danny needs it to cover: protection, deletion, blocks, desysopings, whatever. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"WP:OFFICE is an official policy promulgated by Jimbo Wales which allows Danny Wool (longtime Wikipedian, en-Wikipedia admin, steward, Foundation employee) to temporarily protect or modify an article." .Geni 17:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

And I'm telling you that Danny has the authority to do what needs to be done to protect the Foundation, and thereby protect Wikipedia. If you don't like that, you are free to find another hobby. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

No we've been through that argument. Nothing on Wikipedia:Long term abuse. Therefor they were not much of a threat to en.wikipedia thus if they were pure vandalism (if not then we run into issue that if you are going to lie to protect wikipedia then your lies should at least be credible) there was no need to block on en to "protect the Foundation". Of course I can think of quote a few situations where blocking to protect the foundation would apply however most of them are covered by our other policies. Incerdentaly I can't recall where Danny was authorised to anything other than protection and deleteion (and even then Jimbo hasd indicated that protection should not last more than a week) in the name of the foundation.Geni 18:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

4.226.111.130 removing "prod" tags from many articles

User talk:4.226.111.130 is removing "prod" tags from many articles without doing anything else to the article. This does not appear to be vandalism, but simply an honest opinion that the article is worth keeping. The user is doing other, good, cleanup work. But the user doesn't replace the tag with "cleanup" or improve the article in any way; he just removes "prod" tags. If this were a logged-in user, a message on the talk page would reach him, and I've done that for his current IP address. But it's hard to communicate with an anon. I think this user could be a good contributor, but needs guidance. Suggestions? --John Nagle 19:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

What the IP is doing is fine. A coherent edit summary is about all that etiquette requires for removing PROD tags; the anon is not only doing that, but in many cases adding stub tags and such. The burden is not supposed to be on the de-prodder beyond that. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 19:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Statement from the accused party -- I am a somewhat regular Wikipedia contributor (300 edits last Saturday alone), mostly copyedit/grammar/typo fixes, but I'm on dialup and my IP changes several times per day. Today I decided to investigate the list of prod'd articles to evaluate how the feature was being used, worrying that it might not be getting sufficient oversight. I started with the oldest prodded articles and worked backwards through the list until I had looked at all ~500 prodded articles. Out of the ~500 articles I checked, I saw ~30 (I didn't count) that I thought at least deserved a discussion/vote before being deleted. That leaves about ~470 articles, ~94% of them, that I looked at but didn't de-prod.

On the ones I unprodded, I did add stub tags where I saw untagged stubs, and I did add cleanup tags where I saw badly-written text, but most of the ones I de-prodded already had cleanup/NPOV tags or were prodded for notability and not for quality. Since my goal was to review all ~500 prod'd articles in a few hours, I didn't have time to do much rewriting of the articles I unprodded. However, I need to point out that prod tags are proposals for deletion, not proposals for improvement. I left improvement tags alone or added them, except in a few cases where I could make some fast changes to fix the problems. I've bookmarked the contribs page for this IP (as I've done for other IPs I've made many changes under) so that I can revisit the articles in the future.

On the whole, after reviewing the entire list of prodded articles, I'm content that the feature isn't being abused by rampant deletionists like I feared; even though I thought I was a firm inclusionist, I could only bring myself to de-prod about ~30 out of ~500 (~6%), so I guess the system is working well. Still, I think there is a moral responsibility to check over the list, since it's not an "uncontested deletion" if nobody but the nominator ever sees it.

4.226.111.130 22:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like good work to me, 4.226. The Prod system relies on editors double-checking each other. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

A perfect example why anons should take extra care to not be confused with vandals. It's alarming when an anon goes on a "rampage", and very difficult to judge intentions. Why not get an account anyway? :) Stevage 09:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Rose-mary's personal threat

Rose-mary, who has a habit of threatening to contact real-world employers, and has done so at least once (See #Gator1, has left the following message on my Talk:

Yes, indeed. But the "so-called vandal" (who is not one) may choose another way to be read, when stuborn people refuse to discuss in a gentle and educated way. Injustice makes people angry, you know. And I know of an assistant librarian who could learn it. (80.90.39.217 18:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC))[114]

She uses a dynamic IP, but it has a small range, which no other editor seems to be using. I would appreciate it if the couple dozen IPs that her machine cycles through were blocked for a while. Septentrionalis 20:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I've range-blocked 80.90.32.0/19. There have been only two edits from that range that didn't looked like they were comming from Rose-Mary, and they were made in November and December 2005, so there shouldn't be miuch collateral damage. —Ruud 00:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Blocked Nrcprm2026 for 3RR on Uranium trioxide

I've blocked User:Nrcprm2026 for 3RR on Uranium trioxide. I'm mentioning this here because I have some history with him - well I wrote on his RFArb. Though nothing on that article itself. So, please review the block if you wish William M. Connolley 21:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well there seems to have been a certain amount of animosity from User:ER MD as the other side of the war who has also been blocked, some cool off time for both seems quite reasonable. --pgk^(talk) 21:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

User:ER MD is warring with User:Nrcprm2026 on different pages than Uranium trioxide/Depleted uranium --DV8 2XL 21:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Possibly defamous vandalism at nonsense article Anna Birch Kapuscinski

User:Odras keeps adding rubbish about this supposed Polish porn star. It sounds to me like Anna is some actual person, but none of the claims are plausible (the latest one about being on the cover of Playboy should be easily (dis)verifiable). Could someone please speedy delete the article and reprimand this user? My apologies if I'm reporting this at the wrong place. Stevage 21:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Kelly Clarkson#Redundancies

I need help. Seriously. Someone please interfere, thank you. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please someone interfere. Eternal_Equinox has a history of reverting changes that other people make, specifically changes that I make to the Kelly Clarkson page. He just recently removed a third image that I had uploaded to the page. The image in question [115] was removed by E.E. a couple months back, along with the two other images, the issue was settled by an admninstrator who found fair use didn't apply to one of the images, but the others were OK. Now that I try to re-insert the image, he reverts it completely. He has a history of intimidating other Wikipedia users, which is crystal clear when during his nomination of another article he hawks to featured article status. See [116] Something seriously needs to be done, I thought Wikipedia was a place where anybody can come in and edit, but in this article it seems what you do edit has to pass muster with Eternal_Equinox or he'll revert during his daily check of the article. I think it's time Eternal takes a Wikibreak, because he's doing more harm then good. Hopefully we can reach a resolution! HeyNow10029 22:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite block of user Cemcem

User:Cemcem was blocked with an expiry time of indefinite. I am not convinced this was the right decision (don't bite the newbie; assume good faith). Lambiam^Talk 01:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Duncharris says it's a sockpuppet. I'd like to hear who it's supposedly a sockpuppet of before we unblock. --Cyde Weys 01:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

If not a sockpuppet, Cemcem is at least a meatpuppet of another user who has posted on that AfD - his first five edits were to that page, and at the time of his block he had no edits to article space. The sock (if that's what it is) does appear to have been created with the intent of disrupting the deletion discussion. (ESkog)^(Talk) 11:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Spamming administrators

I've blocked 172.178.31.243 (talk • contribs) for a paltry one hour for working his way through the admin list spamming. He was warned, but his response was not a good sign. - brenneman^{L} 01:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

If the spamming continues after the block expires, just put on a much longer block. --Cyde Weys 01:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately this IP resolves to AOL -- we really can't be blocking AOL IP's for more than 15 minutes or so at a time, because of the way AOL recycles its IP addresses every time someone loads up a different page. FYI, whoever this person is has been creating quite a stir at Kosovo and related articles. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 01:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

*doh!* I promise I did look at the huge sign on the block page, but misread the "172.128.0.0 - 172.216.255.255" part. Thanks for that Kate, I've shortened the block. - brenneman^{L} 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

ComplianceBridge

There is some advertising going on around here. Earlier tonight, an article was created about the ComplianceBridge Corporation. I put an {{advertisement}} tag on it, and left a note on the creator's talk page asking them politely to please read the section about advertising on Wikipedia - specifically the section regarding advertising disguised as valid articles. I cannot find that article anymore, so I think it must have been deleted. But on my watchlist, I saw that the creator, User:Compliancebridge had thrown something on their talk page, and lo and behold, their user page is now an advertisement. I really don't think that this is a user wishing to contribute to the project at all - I think it's just a marketing guy who is looking to take advantage of us for a bit of free advertising. I would suggest an indefinite block of the account, while expressing hopes that the person himself will come back and help with the project. It's up to you - I'm not an admin yet, but I just wanted to let you know about it. Later, zappa.jake (talk) 02:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Normally, I'm pretty strongly against this type of thing...but here, there's not even an external link. So as long as he's not using this as his primary website (and, looking at it, god help him if he is), I don't think it's that big a deal (so long as things stay that way). --InShaneee 03:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I have blanked the advertisement userpage and left an explanatory note. The use of Wikipedia for advertisement is completely unacceptable. --FOo 05:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, (bitterly) it can't be completely unacceptable, since it's not a speedy criterion. But I won't think about that, it just makes me cry. WHY isn't advertising a speedy criterion? Bishonen | talk 23:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC).

Malcom McLean article copyvio

• Malcom McLean (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Rossp (talk • contribs)

I've twice deleted this article as a blatant copyright violation. (Well, to be precise, I deleted it once as copyvio and once as reposting of previously deleted material.) Taking a few random sentences from the article: a significant unsung breakthrough of our time, McLean’s new container ports could do it for just under 16 cents, Without it, the U.S. military would have experienced extreme difficulty feeding, housing and supplying the 540,000 soldiers, sailors, marines and air force personnel who were in Vietnam by the start of 1969. So the deletion should be uncontroversial.

I've also blocked Rossp indefinitely until such a time a he makes it clear that he understands the problem. I notified him last time I deleted the article as copyvio, and his next edit was to re-create the article.

brenneman^{L} 02:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
To avoid confusion: Although I've used the past tense for the blocking and deletion above, I am actually writing this first by about two seconds.

Harassment by User:Leotardo

• Leotardo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User Leotardo has been using an anonymous user's totally spurious accusation of sockpuppetry between User:pm_shef and User:Theonlyedge to harass pm_shef and Theonlyedge. I'm starting to not feel very neutral here, so I would like an uninvolved admin to take a look at his actions. Check out Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Simon Strelchik (second nomination) for a list of extremely suspicious "evidence" Leotardo has against pm_shef and Theonlyedge, which I thoroughly rebuffed, but Leotardo apparently doesn't care. He has added this same evidence in three other places: twice at WP:RFCU, and he has created Category:Wikipedia:Suspected sockpuppets of Pm shef, in order to add Theonlyedge there. In the meantime, his only other edits have been blanking his talk page and removing sockpuppet warning notices from User:Poche1, User:Skycloud, and User:BabaHfa, which are suspected sockpuppets of Leotardo, see Category:Wikipedia:Suspected sockpuppets of Leotardo for the evidence of this. An RFCU based on those allegations was never performed, though it was requested, but the evidence remains very strong nonetheless. Mangojuice 03:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You are the harrasser Mangojuice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) . I added 9 pieces of evidences that would lead a person to believe the Theonlyedge is a sockpuppet of Pm_shef. You "thoroughly rebuffed" my charges by saying they couldn't be the same person, because they were editing at the same time, and one username was so proficient in adding AfDs and the other was very slow, so they can't be the same person. This was your only "evidence". And I added a sockpuppet tag to Theonlyedge, which you removed.... and now you are reporting me here. And I am the one harrasing here? No it's you. Leotardo 11:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

And how many of these complaints are you going to put up on AN/I before you stop? I count three on this page alone. Leotardo 11:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You have a request up on RFCU, why keep pressing the issue? It will either be confirmed, disproved, or rejected. You know that pm_shef and theonlyedge have seen the template. Personally, I think both sides here should try to minimize their direct contact with each other (this goes for Mangojuice as well). If you have suspicions, bring them to an administrator and ask *them* to try and handle the problem. --Syrthiss 13:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll back off. Mangojuice 14:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Blocked User Edits

• 67.70.149.100 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is most likely Eyeonvaughan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who has been blocked for running a sockfarm, making unsubstantiated attacks and accusations against a whole slew of editors (mostly me) etc etc. The anonIP's only edit is the exact same thing Eyeonvaughan has been pushing for weeks, including his spurt of socks following his initial blocking. pm_shef 04:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Clarification The checkuser for Eyeonvaughan and VaughanWatch revealed that VaughanWatch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) had used over thirty sockpuppets. Eyeonvaughan was not mentioned, and a request for clarification has not yet been answered. The 67.* range is in Bell Canada and may very well be either VaughanWatch or Eyeonvaughan, however I wanted to clarify the situation that Eyeonvaughan is not yet confirmed as a sock puppet or puppet master. Of course, RfCU is only a means of confirming that which is shown by behavior, so a block of 67* above may very well be in order anyway. Thatcher131 00:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Jiang

Jiang was reverting his user page and talk page to a state that, in my opinion, called disruption of Wikipedia. (See [117].) Note the caption: Taiwan=shame. I am tempted to revert it, but I might very likely be block by either Jiang or Nlu. However, I would like opinions on this. Should his preferred version be allowed to stand? Is it a personal attack/racism (albeit against a group (specifically an ethic group, not an individual), deserving consequences? Am I wrong about this?--Freestyle.king 04:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

What do the two photos on his userpage and on his talk page actually say? Translations please. ßlηguγΣη | Have your say!!! 04:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, as you can see, some of the words are in English. It seems like some sort of propaganda by the communist government in China to justify its claim over Taiwan. Some of the accusations include "Dalai Lama owns slave." "Taiwan=shame" It is basically two photos that provoke racial hatred between Taiwanese and Chinese, which is already a delicate topic on wikipedia. The photo also accused Taiwanese President Chen Shui-Bian of faking the 3-19 shooting incident, which is possible, but has yet been proved correct. All in all, I believe the two photos has no place on wikipedia and is highly disruptive.--Freestyle.king 04:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is absurd. There is a difference between finding the happy happy guy amusing and provoking racial hatred. Freestyle king would do better to put his own house in order. Henry^Flower 10:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I find it interesting that Henry find the "Taiwan=shame" photos amusing. Nevertheless the captions depicted on the photos are forms of racism/personal attack against a group and disruptive to the wikipedia community, since Taiwan-China relation is already a delicate topic on wiki. (see translation/examples listed above) However, I still like more neutral opinions on this before taking any other actions. To add to that, I consider the following phrase "Freestyle king would do better to put his own house in order." highly offensive. I hope no one is being personal.--Freestyle.king 00:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Block needed for Vigilant (talk · contribs · logs) for perpetual 3RR and Disruption

User is most probably Sean Crandall of Megapath.net See WP:RCU. I discussed the situation with Wikimedia yesterday and they relayed they would remove any inappropriate postings made by these users. Wikimedia asked me to translate the English Wikipedia into the Cherokee Language and I am working with Wales staff and our folks to provide Wikipedia with translation tools and a cash infusion to support Wikipedia Cherokee Language Projects. This user is a stalker patrolling merely to harrass me on this site and revert edits. I want him blocked for his harassing behavior. If my account is blocked again, it will in all likelyhood be unblocked. All legal issues with Wikimedia have been resolved and settled and there are no longer any pending issues regarding contributing. I want this user blocked and restrained. His harassment is inappropriate. See WP:RCU. If this account is blocked again, I will contact Wikimedia in the morning and we will cease our work on the Cherokee Language wikipedia if we feel our efforts with the Wikipedia community are a waste of our time and will be constantly subjected to this type of harassment. Wikimedia communicated they WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY MORE OF THIS CONDUCT FROM THESE USERS who are stalking. Sint Holo 05:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Please add Jerryg (talk · contribs · logs) to the block list as well. He is also participating with the other user to harrass and disrupt editing. Sint Holo 05:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sint Holo continues to remove links to archived talk page discussions. I'm not sure what he wants to hide, but it doesn't help other users in following ongoing discussions. --Jerry (Talk) 06:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I archived my talk page after it was filled with message board dialouge by these users -- all of it harassing and vicious. I never solicited any of their commentary or had even edited from this account. They "stalk" the Cherokee article for purposes of harassment, 3RR, and disruption waitg for me to edit or contribute. Their purpose is to harrass me and drive me from the site. Wikimedia said THEY WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS CONDUCT ANY LONGER. Block this user. Please. Sint Holo 06:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

No-one is fooled, Jeff. You have been banned indefinately from Wikipedia as Gadugi, Waya sahoni and others. So, it seems, you have already been driven from this site due to your repeatedly unacceptable behaviour. Why do you keep returning? Your new sockpuppets include Sint Holo and Tempus Fugit --Vryl 06:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Add Vryl (talk · contribs). This individual contacted the Cherokee Nation and harassed Dr. Delso until he told him to buzz off and verified I was working on Cherokee Articles and Culture for the CN Cultural Department on this site. See Talk:Cherokee. His conduct is more sinister. Add him to the block list as well. Please. Sint Holo 06:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Liar, liar, pants are on fire! I have sent exactly one email to Mr Delso, and received exactly one reply. You will note that after this, I confirmed to people about Jeff's ethnicity, when it was in dispute on the Cherokee page. You can see the very polite reply I received from Mr Delso now on my talk page, where he thanks me for the email. Some harrassment. Pls note that Mr Delso did not tell me to "buzz off". Feel free to email him to confirm this.

My "Sinister" apology to Jeff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gadugi&diff=prev&oldid=23635141

My polite email from Mr Delso: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vryl#Email_from_Dusty_Delso_to_me.21

Update: Actually, I must have sent 2 emails to Mr Delso, because I apologised to him for the first one. The point is the same, I wasn't harrassing him, and he responded respectfully. --Vryl 14:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Cherokee doesn't say anything about Sint Holo, but it does show a response from Dr. Delso regarding Jeff Merkey. Are you now admitting that you are Jeff Merkey, who has been indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia? OneNamelessCat 06:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikimedia can resind anything done by an admin on this site. I have been invited back to work on Cherokee by WIKIMEDIA. So much for the indef block banter. Find another hobby (like Houston Texas and the company you work for there). Sint Holo 06:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You will, of course, give us the name of the admin who invited you back. --Jerry (Talk) 06:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's true, but even if it were, you have yet to show something statiing this from a verifiable authority. Until then, you're just a net.kook with a broken wiki fork and a penchant for losing at the legal game. Vigilant 06:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sean, I don't think megapath will appreciate their network being used by an employee for Denial of Service Attacks and hacking of Wikipedia or it's interwiki sites. Go work on your email clustering software and do something useful. You are better than this. Sint Holo 06:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Are you threatening me Jeff? Are you making threats against me pointed at my employer in such a way as to prevent my free exercise of expression here at wikipedia? Are you? Naw, I'm not Sean, but I bet you were sweating AGAIN, weren't you? I have worked on WolfPack Clustering from MS though. It was a dog. Vigilant 07:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I almost forgot, you are going to provide the name of the admin or authority that asked you to 'come back' and you are going to provide some cites for my identity and you are going to provide some cites for hacking allegations and DoS allegations, right? Cue cricket_chirp.wav Vigilant 07:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

By this diff it can be seen that this post was first made by User:71.199.40.199, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=71.199.40.199 and then quickly edited to read as though it was written by User:Sint Holo.

The following portion of an email header which I received on April 8, 2006, clearly shows that this IP address is being used by Jeffrey Vernon Merkey, AKA banned User:Gadugi / User:Waya_sahoni / User:PeyoteMan / User:Asgaya_Gigagei / etc etc etc...

Received: from [192.168.1.100] (c-71-199-40-199.hsd1.co.comcast.net [71.199.40.199])
        by ns1.utah-nac.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDC798A38
        for <____@____.com>; Sat,  8 Apr 2006 18:24:35 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <443858CB.3040907@wolfmountaingroup.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 18:43:55 -0600
From: "Jeffrey V. Merkey" <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>

Once again, multiply-blocked user Jeffrey Vernon Merkey is back and is up to his old tricks: evading previous blocks, forgetting to log on before he makes edits, making false and unsubstantiated charges, and making unsubstantiated claims of association with top-level individuals at Wikimedia -- which is a bit ironic, given that Merkey is still attempting to pull Wikimedia into Merkey's failed lawsuit, Merkey v Perents et al -- (2005-10-21 #31 NOTICE "PLAINTIFF JEFFREY VERNON MERKEY'S NOTICE OF COURT ORDER TO JIMMY WALES AND WIKIMEDIA FOUNDATION AND WIKIPEDIA" [pdf]). -- talks_to_birds 10:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Merkey,

Thank you for your kind words. I have forwarded them to the Board of Wikimedia. Over the course of the day, I will 
provide you with the information you request. I firmly believe that a resource like wikipedia in Cherokee can be of 
enormous benefit to the Cherokee nation as an academic resource for students in their own language. Here is the site
 of the Cherokee-language Wikipedia for your perusal: http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%8E%A4%E1%8E%B5%E1%8E%AE%E1%8E%B5%E1%8F%8D%E1%8F%97. While it is still small, I am 

convinced it has enormous potential.


Danny Wool
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

Jeff V. Merkey wrote:

>
> Gentlemen,
>
> I apologize for my earlier conduct and public statements and ask Mr. Wales and Wikimedia to accept my apologies.

> I discussed your suggestion about the Cherokee Language Wikipedia with Dr. Dusty Deslo, Director of the Cherokee 
Nation Cultural and Language program.  I am writing a lexicon converter that will convert the entire English 
Wikipedia to the Cherokee Language for the Cherokee Nation.  Dr. Delso at present has me assigned to translate 
several hundred childrens books into Cherokee for our language immersion program for the Cherokee Youth (Tom Sawyer,
 Huck Finn, etc.)  I have been working on these translations and we are switching to the laguage conversion tools 
after I complete them.  I am working with our linguistics experts and the United States BIA on these projects for 
Dr. Delso and our people at present with a complete translation suite of tools for our language.  I have analyzed 
Wikipedia's XML dumps and have setup www.wikigadugi.org for our people and the Native Community and feel confident I
 can modify these tools to translate XML dumps from your site for the Cherokee Wikipedia in both syllabary and 
phonetic formats. 

Now please block all of these stalkers who are on this site for harrassment and disruption. Now. Thanks. Sint Holo 15:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Danny seems to have sent you a nice motherhood style of statement. Notice his use of the word "perusal", in relation to the Cherokee Wiki. Are you taking this to be an invitation to edit the english Wikipedia, a wiki that you have been banned many times from for disruption? Is Danny aware of your multiple bans? I assume that he should be informed of this. Or probably will be soon, if he hasn't already. --Vryl 16:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked two of the participants in the above ridiculous brawl, User:Sint Holo and User:Vigilant, for twenty-four hours, subject to review by other administrators. I shall block others who continue to abuse Wikipedia to pursue personal vendettas. This is not Usenet and your efforts to turn it into a perpetual flame war forum are not appreciated. --Tony Sidaway 18:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

On reviewing the contributions and userpage of User:Vryl, I have blocked him indefinitely, subject to review by other administrators. He declares that his purpose in using Wikipedia is to "clean up the mess left behind by Jeff Vernon Merkey", and indeed nearly all of his edits for months now have been attacks on various socks of Merkey. Merkey may pose a problem for Wikipedia, but that problem cannot be resolved by blatantly ignoring Wikipedia's basic policies and using Wikipedia as a forum to attack other editors. --Tony Sidaway 19:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I've examined the edits of [[User:Talks to birds], particularly this one. Another person here solely to pursue a vendetta against Merkey. I've blocked this editor indefinitely, subject to review by other administrators. --Tony Sidaway 20:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Please clarify Mr. Merkey's status. Is he or is he not banned from Wikipedia, as Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users#Jeffrey_Vernon_Merkey states he is? Has he been granted some exemption from WP:SOCK allowing him to edit as Sint Holo and TempusFugit despite having been permanently blocked from editing under at least 10 previous accounts? — MediaMangler 19:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It's obvious that Sint Holo/Merkey/whatever has a legitimate complaint about stalkers, and it's equally obvious that--whatever his previous history--he's made an effort to resolve his differences with Wikimedia and he's making an honest effort to improve Wikipedia. I'm prepared to assume good faith on this subject. He should not be considered permanently banned at this time. --Tony Sidaway 20:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Tony, I know this thread has gone on too long already, but please help me understand how WP:BAN would allow good faith when the user has admitted being a banned user? This is a serious question. I'm relatively new to Wikipedia and wikipedia policy is sometimes a convuluted as legal documents. --Jerry (Talk) 20:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Good faith should never be enterely ruled out. As you can see above, Danny and Jeff have been able to interact with one another in good faith, and Jeff has offered help with the Cherokee Wikipedia. As long as this goes on, having some chaps pestering him and engaging in behavior that would disgrace a moderated forum, quite against all Wikipedia policy, is a big headache for Wikipedia. That some of them openly admit that this is your sole purpose for editing Wikipedia is very worrying indeed. This isn't a battleground, it's an encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 20:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok.. I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of WP:BAN, and we only have Jeff's word that the above exchange actually took place, but you've made the decision. I've got more locomotive articles to work on, so I'm through with this thread. --Jerry (Talk) 21:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Uncivil removal of talk page discussion 2

This is a continuation of an issue that I mentioned above, but the administrator involved seems to have dropped out of discussion.

My recent discussion on (a) verifiability of NPOV policy (b) paraphrasing of NPOV policy, do not appear to have been discussed before. But FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has unilaterally removed my discussion comments from the Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view page, twice now [118] [119]

While I can appreciate an editor not wanting to engage in discussion, I consider the removal of discussions to be at least uncivil, as it removes verification of discourse, and prevents other editors from engaging in discussion.

FeloniousMonk has claimed that "dozens of Wikipedia's most credible editors have asked for this discussion to be either dropped or taken to user talk space over the last four months". As far as I can tell, my points have not been discussed before (FeloniousMonk should be able to show otherwise). And how do I spot a "credible editor"... do they have the power to delete contributions without discussion with the other editor?

I would like (A) my discussion restored (B) FeloniousMonk banned from editing the policy page on the grounds of heavy-handed uncivility --Iantresman 10:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: This is highly unlikely. FM userfied your very large, somewhat out-of-topic, and tenditious tendentious (not to say tedious) posts to the policy talk page. Your points have indeed been discussed, ad nauseum, as you would know had you read the archives. So far as I can see, your complaint is that your wordy and unsupported attempts to change a key policy have been userfied. Case closed. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if you find the discussions tedious (I can't find the word tenditious in my dictionary), but I asked other editors for claification on policy. I've looked through the archives (as I explained to the previous administrator); can you show me where I have received any clarification, or how I am supposed to? Policy suggests that I discuss it.

Nor can I find anywhere that FeloniousMonk has suggested that I take my discussion elsewhere. Nor can I find where there are policies or guidelines that explain the circumstances when it is OK to "userfy" a discussion? --Iantresman 15:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

tendentious (tenˈden sh əs) adjective expressing or intending to promote a particular cause or point of view, esp. a controversial one : a tendentious reading of history. (dont mind me, just trying to be helpful) Syrthiss 20:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

New template

{{ Template:SharedIPPublic }} has been created by me to identify public terminal IP addresses. Hope this helps! --Sunfazer 11:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Anon tagging people with {{sockpuppet}}

172.208.173.58 (talk · contribs) is tagging legitimate editors with {{sockpuppet}}. He is probably the same editor as some other anon trolls/vandals, 172.178.190.244 (talk · contribs), 172.183.73.212 (talk · contribs), 172.178.132.39 (talk · contribs), 172.178.31.243 (talk · contribs), 172.174.77.138 (talk · contribs). I may haave missed one or two, but these seem to be the main perps.

As this might be a dynamic IP, I think a short block might be in order. Perhaps a longer one as well, but I'll leave to that whomever feels like picking this one up.

Cheers, The Minister of War ^(Peace) 11:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Those are AOL IPs; given the dynamic nature, anything more than a 15 minute block will be more headache than help. Essjay ^{Talk • Contact} 12:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Headaches aplenty already! Thanks, The Minister of War ^(Peace) 12:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The question is: how to solve this holy edit war in the long run? 'Cause we can't endlessly revert and block every AOL IP number. Perhaps this could even be reported to the ISP? Comments left on talk pages such as this (which I have taken the liberty to remove) are not helpful to the Project. Misza13 ^{T C} 12:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

"Stay away from Kosovo or I call NATO to kill your parents"? Is something wrong with me if I find this amusing? De mortuis... 13:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Haha! Not at all, I left him on my talk page just for laughs. But then again, for all we know Jaap de Hoop Scheffer is the one trolling... The Minister of War ^(Peace) 15:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• ya people do know that the 172.x.x.x range is only semi-portable, so usually they don't support more than one person at a time, unlike the 64.x.x.x, 152.x.x.x, and 205.x.x.x ranges, a block on a 172.x.x.x range isn't likely to cause any problems, so you could probably get away with a 24 hour block if you really had to, and unlike the 64,152,205's, the 172s don't rotate unless you sign off, or otherwise disconnect your modem--152.163.100.65 20:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• only issue I can think of, is the ease in which AOL users can switch between the 172 ranges, and the shared ranges, does seem to make blocking them virtually impossible, especially since AOL can assign several different ip groups to the same computer, at the same time, hence my little quick change from 152.163.100.65 to 172.151.240.130, and back again --172.151.240.130 20:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• so, um, yep, virtually impossible to block--152.163.100.65 20:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User:StrangerInParadise

I reduced Alkivar (t · c · b · p · d · m · r)'s civility indef. block of StrangerInParadise (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to one week to be consistent with the RfAr. NoSeptember ^talk 13:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You do realize SIP is just a sockpuppet of another well-established user, right? The tradeoff is either that the sock gets blocked indefinitely or the same sanction must be applied to the main account as to the sock account. Since the main account is actually being useful and the sock is just being used for trolling, I would highly recommend that we keep the sock indefinitely blocked. --Cyde Weys 23:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Jewboy101

Blocked this indefinitely based on user name and vandalism only account. Contributions are adding pictures they uploaded to school sites, which included what appeared to be copyright pornography. All pictures also deleted. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 14:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User: Samuel Blanning

The page Clive Bull is presently debating the introduction of a new version by Minglex. Some users believe that the article does not flow well: siting Minglex’s choice of subcategories, overall flow of the article (categories are stand alone and not linked well) and grammatical errors.

Blanning believes that the new version is better but instead of debating the issue has stifled debate through un-civil behaviour.

1. From what I can tell some of the opponents work in the same organisation (Same IP) and some others are students from the same university (hence same IP) [120]. Blanning has labelled them all sock puppets and refuses to debate their views of the article. He is also actively trying to ban them. These users have not vandalised any article yet he labels their justified objection to the new version as vandalism. 2. As the new article’s formatting and sub-categories are in contention by 10+ users it would be wiki procedure to keep the old version as by looking at the discussion page 10against to 3for is not a consensus. The 10+ users requested page protection for the old version. Against the wishes of the discussion and the majority of users he sneakily changed to the new version before protecting the page.

This is uncivil behaviour and an abuse of his privileges. Clivefan 14:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

A case of m:The Wrong Version, it seems. Samuel Blanning did not protect the page. [121] Thus, no harm nor foul. Work out your differences on the talk page. —BorgHunter ^ubx (talk) 14:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

He changed it just as it was about to be protected. Sthriss also likes the new version and I suspect colusion. Clivefan 15:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is highly amusing given that Clivefan was the one who requested protection. [122] --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I asked for protection of the old version from Sam Blanning and Syriss see complaint below. They coloded to put in place the new version and protect it. That is uncivil. Clivefan 15:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

TINC. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Clive, Protection occurs to prevent edit warring or vandalism. , not to protect from editors who disagree with you. JoshuaZ 15:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see my conflict of interest here. I have never edited Clive Bull except for vandalism removal and a slight grammar fix. It is true that I stated I preferred Minglex' version on the talk page, but I've been largely trying to stay out of it because I don't have any interest in Clive Bull...I'm not British... etc. IPs and users from one side of the conflict have been trying for at least a week to have it protected, so when I saw that Sam (a party on the other side of the discussion) agreed it needed to be protected I decided to agree and protect it. Now that it is protected, Sam will not be able to edit it either for fear of censure because of unfair use of admin powers. JoshuaZ and BorgHunter are correct: we don't lock pages to help either side get ahead in a conflict, and anytime you request a page be protected you run the risk that it will be protected in the "wrong version". All that being said, if another admin feels that I may have been biased they are welcome to remove the protection. Syrthiss 15:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The request for protection clearly asked for the original version to be protected. You were biased. 147.114.226.172 16:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Assume good faith please. From the header of Requests for page protection:

After a page has been protected, it is listed on Wikipedia:List of protected pages with a short description indicating why it was protected. Further discussion should take place on the Talk page of the article. Admins do not revert back to previous versions of the page, except to get rid of vandalism.

Syrthiss 16:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User: Sythriss

The page Clive Bull is presently debating the introduction of a new version by Minglex. Some users believe that the article does not flow well: siting Minglex’s choice of subcategories, overall flow of the article (categories are stand alone and not linked well) and grammatical errors.

Sythriss along with Blanning (above) believes that the new version is better but instead of debating the issue has stifled debate through un-civil behaviour.

Sythriss used his administrator rights to protect a version of the Clive Bull page that is disputed. As he had contributed to the Clive bull discussion he knew which version I requested for protect.[123]

User:Mrnitpicker

A registered but unknown user with no User Page continues, despite warnings and with no response from him, to make inappropriate, evidently self-aggradizing changes on the St. John Publications page. Details below.

I have left comments on that article's talk page, and I also created the page User talk:Mrnitpicker in order to post comments/warnings directly to him before coming here.

I believe his edits to be inappropriate and contrary to Wikipedia policy, and I document below that they are inaccurate. He does not respond, and simply to continues to repost, and I believe this behavior, coupled with the facts below, may make blocking him the only resort.

I am reposting here verbatim what I posted on the St. John page, followed by my posting to the Mrnitpicker page;

St. John Publications talk page

Deleted inappropriate self-aggrandisement

An unregistered [sic] person added, to the head of the article, "Most of the information contained in this article was taken directly from Ken Quattro's extensive and far more detailed article, Archer St. John and the Little Company That Could [124]."

First, that source was duly and properly credited under References right from the very beginning. Second, having created this page and going to great lengths to find other, confirming sources — as well as independently and solely creating a bibliography from scratch using often-contradictory sources — that statement is not only self-aggrandizing, it is inaccurate. -- Tenebrae 21:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop adding inappropriate comments

It Rhymes with Lust is not copyrighted by Ken Quattro. Its image is not exclusive to him, and if you want to get technical, what right did he have to put it on a commercial website himself?

If this behavior, which is contrary to Wikipedia policy, continues, I'm going to report you to the Admin and have you blocked. -- Tenebrae 21:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Mrnitpicker

All information on Wikipedia comes from other sources; that makes the St. John Pubs. article no different from any other, and all the sources, not just yours, were linked-to in the References section from the start.

• Every word in this entry is my original writing; you imply plagiarism by putting your notice at the head of the article, yet the article contains no phrases from any other work.
• It distills a long and highly detailed history of the company into a few concise paragraphs of original writing.
• It draws from a variety of listed sources, plus separately footnoted and linked-within-article sources, as well as other Wikipedia articles (such as Matt Baker) to, in the intro, encapsulate the company's firsts in a way the comicvilleart pieces does not, and, in the history, adds many details the comicartville piece does not.
• And finally, it includes a bibliograpy constructed from various contradictory sources, a bibliography constructed with my own sweat and hours — all of this, working anonymously, done not for credit or self-aggrandizement, but as an unnamed volunteer to help write an enyclopedia. If you'd wanted to write a St. John article from scratch as I did, nothing was stopping you.

I will now explain all this to an Admin for appropriate action. -- Tenebrae 14:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

THANK YOU for any any help. As you'll see from my User Page and Talk Page, I've been a hard-working Wikiepdia editor for close to a year, and from other editors' comments, I believe my work has been respected. Thank you again -- Tenebrae 15:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Kehrli

User:Kehrli has carried on a campaign of advocacy starting at an article titled m/z misconception, that is now deleted and then at mass-to-charge ratio. Mediation has failed. Currently the article only has factual inaccuracies, misleading information and disproportionate representation but that is after an extended period of being corrected by myself and other users, incl. moderators about advocacy. He has learned that to push his POV he must appear legit. Also not his user page which is a diatribe against m/z.

--Nick Y. 22:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

fixed a confusing typo Ashibaka tock 00:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

UninvitedCompany (talk · contribs) blocks Karmafist (talk · contribs)

While browsing through old ArbCom cases, I suddenly stubled on an edit made in the old RFAR over Karmafist. It seemed that Karmafist had been blocked for one year UninvitedCompany (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), for making disruptive edits.

To save us all some time, this short discussion on User:UninvitedCompany's talk page ensued. Any and all comments are greatly appreciated. The Minister of War ^(Peace) 22:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Your block of Karmafist

Hey there,

I noticed your block of Karmafist [125]. However, you may have been mislead by his provocative edit summaries, but it is not the case that "substantially all" of his edits have been disruptive. If you check their content, you will find most are normal edits (admittedly with the customary level of sarcasm here and there).

I certainly feel a block is warranted by his last "f*ck it" edit summary, and a few others in a lesser degree, but a year is much too heavy for this.

Please review the edits under question so that you can see for yourself the were not disruptive, but rather that only his edit summaries were uncivil. I'd appreciate it if you would adjust the block time accordingly.

Greets, The Minister of War ^(Peace) 17:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right insofar as some of the diffs themselves show relatively normal editing with curious edit summaries. The way I see it, though, he isn't contributing anything of value at this point, but is instead doing three things: (a) updating his user page and pages related to it, (b) making various edits motivated by wikipolitics, and (c) baiting other people by deliberately ignoring the AC remedies. I took the bait -- knowingly -- because the AC remedies were crafted based in giving lots of second chances to an established contributor. But he's not contributing -- he's made a decision to leave and is trying to leave as much damage as possible in his wake. He knows exactly what he's doing and is flouting the community on purpose. While I appreciate your concern and look forward to further discussion, and am willing to remove the block if it's clear there's a good deal of reasoned opposition to it, I'm going to leave it in place for now.

The Uninvited Co., Inc. 18:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree he's not very contructive lately. And no doubt his edit summaries are only to be regarded as purposely inflammatory. Thats why I formulated so carefully - in no way to I condone this behaviour. But to my mind, your points (a) and (b) are no reason for blocking at all. Point (c) certainly is, but for one year? While I often disagree with Karmafist, he has seen good times as well and I think this counts for something. He's not a troll or a vandal, he's a contributor gone awry. And I think "there is still good in him" ;-).

I'm a bit pressed for time right now, but as soon as I have the opportunity I will post something on WP:AN/I. I'll inform you once I do. I'm glad with your open and honest reaction.

Cheers, The Minister of War ^(Peace) 19:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The discussion at User_talk:UninvitedCompany#Re:_Your_Edit_On_My_Birthday may be relevant to this discussion. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 22:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this was the second time Karmafist was blocked for violating the arbcom ruling. As a process fanatic, I would think that we'd rather wait till the fifth (sixth) violation to have him blocked for a year, as the ruling says. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 22:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

(from IRC) I do sort of feel sorry for Karmafist because I did used to respect him, but at the same time, he's been nothing but disruptive for awhile now, and I cannot in good faith reduce that one year block. --Cyde Weys 23:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I have reduced the block to one week, pending me being able to discuss this with him. The one year block was WRONG and out of place. Please follow the ArbCom ruling, UIC. NSLE _(T+C) at 00:25 UTC (2006-04-19)

I have to agree with Oleg Alexandrov here. Karmafist is flouting the Arb Com ruling with his edit summaries, which he has been warned about again and again and again... and the spirit of UIC's block is right, but we should probably follow the letter of the law here and stick to the five-strikes-and-you're-out-for-a-year remedy of the Arb Com ruling.--Alhutch 01:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I've had all day to think about this, and I have to disagree with the year-long-block now (and thus agree with NSLE's shortening of it). My reasoning is this: Karmafist is continuing with precisely the same violations that the ArbCom ruled on, thus, the letter of the ArbCom ruling should be respected. If he were doing something else, or taking it to a new destructive level, a lengthy block now might be appropriate, but as it stands, there's simply no reason to ignore the ArbCom's time and effort and short-circuit their decision. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

well said, i agree.--Alhutch 02:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Can't sleep, clown will eat me (talk · contribs)

keeps blocking AOL ranges, even specific AOL ip addresses with no history of vandalism, all attempts to contact this user have been treated as vandalism, and all ranges used to do so, have been blocked, Can't sleep, clown will eat me has now protected his own talk page to keep anyone from reporting collateral from AOL IP blocks--152.163.100.65 22:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

In the event you are not trolling and are a legitimate editor, I do apologise, but someone on your and other AOL IP ranges is in fact carrying out massive vandalism, and has been blocked before by other administrators in the past hour. Again, I apologise for the inconvenience. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

and you respond to this comment by leveling another 99 minute block, presumably to keep me from responding? or not--152.163.100.65 23:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

CSCWEM, can you please respond to these concerns with maybe some diff links of the vandalism in progress? I looked at your user talk page and I didn't see any evidence of being harrassed by anon IPs recently. --Cyde Weys 23:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

152.163.100.65, if you are having a problem editing, please read Wikipedia:Advice to AOL users. CSCWEM, although under WP:AOL you may block AOL proxies to combat heavy vandalism, longer blocks of 99 minutes are generally pointless because of the collateral damage and the fact that the vandal automatically switches IPs frequently. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 23:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

What solution is there when someone is IP hopping on AOL ranges and has already been blocked for 15 minutes, any? Can't sleep, clown will eat me 23:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Semiprotection, really. And letters from the WMF to AOL asking them to change to a different system. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 23:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I really think that range blocks of AOL should not be imposed without discussion. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that AOL (and Netscape ISP, which is owned by AOL and which I use) reallocates its IP's about every :15. Therefore, blocking the IP vandal pretty much never hits the vandal. It will, however, hit some other schmo using their servers (like me, for example). If you know that it's an AOL IP, don't block for more than :15. If it's a name account that happens to be an AOL IP that the autoblocker catches, there isn't a lot you can do to avoid the collateral damage. This remains one of the Great Unsolved Problems. Short of actually requiring edits from named accounts only and disabling the autoblocker, I can't think of a solution. Geogre 00:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

3RR block evasion at Ahmed Osman

There appears to be a sock/meat puppet (User:CriticAtLarge) evading the current block on User:Gamahucheur at Ahmed Osman. Is there an administrator who can help by enforcing the block? -- cmh 22:57, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Nlu

Are we allow to delete comments from other users on our talk page to cover up criticism from other users? User: Nlu recently deleted Rhtcmu's comments on his talk page, which questions Nlu's integrity. Evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nlu&diff=48523697&oldid=48498685--Freestyle.king 01:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

There is, officially, nothing wrong with doing so. NSLE _(T+C) at 07:25 UTC (2006-04-19)

User Zora User: Zora

User Zora recently reverted my contribution in the Rajput article without any satisfactory explanation. Here is what she did

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rajput&diff=48963191&oldid=48961689

In effect this is what she achieved

(1) Introduced a spelling error in the word "Coterminous".

(2) Introduced inaccuracy and confusion in a statement pertaining to the process of Sanskritization.

(3) Deleted the names of two famous Rajput personalities from the list of Rajput heroes, who will be considered heroes by any standard you choose.

If this is not vandalism, what is? Can something be done to keep her away from the development of this article, as she is nothing but a disruptive factor in this process.

Maan Kanwar 01:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, this is not vandalism. This is. This too. Tijuana Brass 01:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I just now saw Maan Kanwar's notice at Talk:Rajput and his accusation here. I made a mistake. I posted this on Talk:Rajput --

Dear Maan, I agree, I made a mistake. The edits that you made don't seem particularily pernicious. I glanced hastily at the diff, checked your contribs, found that you are a brand-new account, and figured you were just one more of the sockpuppets that a banned user is creating at a great rate. I reverted to the last version by an editor that I recognized as NOT being a sock. I'm sorry I didn't see your notice here; I've been very busy. I apologize.

Is that all that is necessary, or am I going to be punished for making a mistake? Zora 02:08, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Just an honest mistake; easy to make when a sock may be suspected. Tijuana Brass 02:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Zephram Stark sockpuppet

Pinot noir (talk · contribs). "New" user seems unusually concerned about control card reverts. Edits to Talk:Freedom of movement, etc. --JW1805 (Talk) 02:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Second edit of "new user" concerns subject of sockpuppets??? Ha ha, yeah, right. Shenme 03:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

See also Coving (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) -Will Beback 04:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please ban this guy? --JW1805 (Talk) 04:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

gods this is boring. Done. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Frakking sockpuppets. --Calton | Talk 06:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

This user bears a closer look by those who know Zephram better. Vista Delay (talk · contribs) -Will Beback 23:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Onefortyone

I've noticed that just after a one month ban from Elvis Presley and Memphis Mafia articles for violating his probation, Onefortyone has gone staight back to tendentiously adding the same poorly-referenced claims that got him banned before: [126], [127]--Count Chocula 02:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I am certainly not violating my probation. As everybody can see, my contributions are well sourced, as I have cited many independent sources in the text. To my mind, user Count Chocula simply endeavors to suppress information he doesn't like. Significantly, this is the same strategy multi-hardbanned user Ted Wilkes had used in the past to denigrate my contributions. But this it not the way it works here. Onefortyone 18:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

User:71.212.16.228

Just won't stop vandalizing Olympia, Washington. Been reverted 8 times by 4 editors plus one bot. Warned thrice up to test4. Needs a block. Shenme 03:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Better off to add it on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism instead of here. Thanks Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 03:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

User talk:65.13.184.164

I'd like someone to review User talk:65.13.184.164 and see if his comments about me are in line with policy. I don't want to say anything more about it -- because I'm too upset at this point. I'm pretty sure that it's User:Jason Gortician trying to evade a block. Again, though, I'm too upset to say anything more about this. --Elkman - ^(talk) 04:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the sockpuppet matter but the comments on the talk page look like a minor violation of WP:CIVIL but nothing that extreme. JoshuaZ 04:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

This edit would probably qualify as a PA, though, wouldn't it? Check the edit summary. -Colin Kimbrell 01:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Pro-Lick sockpuppet trouble

Over at Abortion, we're dealing with a bunch of crap from sockpuppets. We're pretty sure it's User:Pro-Lick, formerly User:Halliburton Shill. The accounts in question are:

• BrushLimpcow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ingralamb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• NColemam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• O.P.Nuhss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• M.E.Rhekt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Donpediac (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• DPG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

NColemam is blocked for 3RR, and O.P.Nuhss and M.E.Rehkt are indef blocked as sockpuppets. Perhaps a checkuser is in order? Perhaps semiprotection? At any rate, more eyes on the situation are always appreciated. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and semi-protected, and i'd second the checkuser . . . --Heah? 04:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Heah. I've never done a check user request, but this seems like a good time to find out how it works. -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Essjay ^{Talk • Contact} 05:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Essjay, that was very helpful. All socks, plus half a score more. It's always a shame to see an editor go out like that. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Considering how much of a nuisance this editor was to start with (he made a page outside Wikipedia calling for POV pushing and vandalizing) it really isn't much of a shame. JoshuaZ 21:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure... I guess I meant, of all the different ways an editor can go out, it's a shame when they turn into a sock-farmer. I don't know how to prevent it; maybe some people are just determined to be pains in the neck, no matter what you do. I've been reading MeatballWiki a bit lately, and thinking about how people come and go in a wiki. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

This wouldn't be the first time he's done this to that article. See the archive of completed RFCU requests involving Pro-Lick/Shill. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 22:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

List of shock sites

Regular edits

• List of shock sites (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of shock sites/Uncited (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Admin powers

• List of shock sites/Temp (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/HAI2U (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/HAI2U|talk]] | history | links | watch | logs)

I've stomped around a bit here, and reverted threee times on List of shock sites. Agressive, unfriendly, ZOMG abuse of admin powers, etc. Still think I'm right, certianly could have been more gentle, opening myself up for trout-slapping as appropiate.
brenneman^{L} 06:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The trouble never ends with that article does it? wasn't it just deleted, undeleted, and edit warred over? I think we'd be better off if just for 5 minutes people stopped edit warring over the list of shock sites article. Pegasus1138^{Talk | Contribs | Email} ---- 06:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

And I think that we'd be better of if people who want to insert material like "Once again it has been scientifically proven that this is infact fecal matter traveling from the woman's anal region" would review our policies on verification. We don't compromise on things like citation of sources. - brenneman^{L} 06:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I consider this defamatory as I inserted no such thing. I reverted your blanking of the page and nothing more. If you find that this statement is not verifiable, you are more than welcome to remove it. I never wrote it and I never put it in the article. - Abscissa 07:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

When you replace material in an article after its validity has been explicitly challenged, it seems obvious to me that you are taking responsibility for it. The fact that you refuse to take responsibility for the edit suggests that you should not have reverted in the first place. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Not when the material has not, as you state, been "explicitly challenged." That argument is fallacious and invalid. These edits were hard to differentiate from vanadlism. If someone blanks the entire Hitler article and I revert it, do I suddenly take responsibility for everything written about Hitler? I certainly hope not, otherwise Wikipedia would be a compendium of blank pages. -Abscissa 17:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Aaron's edit summary read "removed clean up tag, added a few categories, removed material without citations showing they are shock sites." I'm not sure how this could possibly be more explicit, perhaps next time he should use allcaps. Anyway, you should not have replaced the material without providing the requested citations. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Please see here. I do not think your sarcasam is warranted or appropriate and I do not appriciate it. There are many articles such as this one which have zero sources. This does not give anyone the excuse to blank them. Furthermore, again, your fallacious argument rests upon the assumption that shock sites can be sourced: just what source, exactly, would you feel is appropriate? #1 Any reasonable person would find these sites shocking, and #2 these sites exist for the purpose of shocking. There are many, many Slashdot posts used in internet trolling trying to redirect users to these sites; that is why they are there. See Slashdot trolling. -Abscissa 19:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If these sites actually cannot be sourced, then WP:V specifically implies that the information cannot be included in the article. It is pretty clear: "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources." You can easily resolve the issue by providing reliable and reputable sources for the facts you want to include. As far as disruption, it's been made clear, particularly at the earlier AFDs, that this article needs sources. Removal of unsourced information is long overdue, and hardly disruptive. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:34, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

You fail to make a proper argument and continue to Beg the question. I consider contributing further to this particular thread unconstructive because you have, serveral times, failed to demonstrate that which you have assumed in your argument. I am not going to respond further here. - Abscissa 19:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• I've protected the page because of the ongoing edit war. Unfortunately that required me to look at it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Aaron, your out of process deletionism has become tiresome. Thinking you are right is not enough to defy community consensus. Silensor 06:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. There was no consensus to delete "HAI2U" or to blank "List of shock sites". That article is actually going through an AFD right now. Yesterday, he tried to delete entries on "List of sexual slurs" that "only have one source". In other words, I cited many of the entries using published dictionaries (e.g., the Oxford English Dictionary, Cassell Dictionary of Slang) and he tried to delete them anyway.

  When he blanked the "List of shock sites" article, he said it was because the list was unsourced. I found that confusing as the fact that they're shock sites and that they exist can be verified by simply visiting them.--Primetime 06:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Aaron Brenneman has claimed "I'm not put off by a bird standing on some's penis" on his talk page implying that a site is therefore not shocking. I am responding here since he asked to move the discussion here. -- The fact that it is offputting to some and not offputting to Aaron is not really relevant as the site was created as a shock site and is part of internet trolling. - Abscissa 07:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discusssion looks like a real reason to delete all such garbage from wikipedia. Gah! --Doc ^ask? 08:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The Doc is right (as usual). What part of Wikipedia is not a collection of external links are people having trouble understanding? Burn the lot, have one encyclopaedic article on shock site and have it without links because as soon as you allow one the rest will be piling in and we'll be back to the spam event horizon. Just zis Guy you know? 09:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not what this discussion is about. The AFD underway is about that and it is certain that, for a fifth time, the article will be kept. The thing I find disturbing is using WP:V as an excuse to game the system and blank most of the article without debate by Mr. Brenneman. I also find disturbing the deletion of "HAI2U" even after debate ended without consensus and finally his attempt to blank most of "List of sexual slurs" even though almost all the entries had respectable sources.--Primetime 09:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

My two cents: WP:V is policy, Wikipedia:Consensus is only a guideline. Therefore, WP:V is more important, and it's not "gaming the system" to say so. On the other hand, there's a big difference between saying something is unverifiable (in which case it should be deleted) and unverified (in which case, sources should be found and included). I nominated HAI2U for deletion, and I had concerns that it was unverifiable. However, those concerns were apparently shared by nobody except Aaron Brenneman, since no one else said anything. A similar controversial AfD closure was done for The Game (game), but in that case, there was a lot of discussion about verifiability, and a very thorough bit of research had been done to back up that the article was unverifiable. No such thing was done here. I'm going to start a section on WP:DRV about this; I think this was done out of process. Mangojuice 16:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Using the verifiability policy to justify deleting this article seems to be either system-gaming (I don't like this article, so I will find a rule that it might break) or process fetishism (I'll literally interpret the rules as generalities in every case). I don't see a compelling argument that the existence of this article is damaging to the encyclopedia. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 17:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Also, please note that Aaron Breneman also (1) deleted Dominionist political parties even though there was 10 votes to keep and 5 to delete. (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dominionist political parties.) He also (2) deleted List of themed timelines yesterday even though there were three keep versus three delete votes. (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of themed timelines.)^[128] He could have done much more, but I stopped reviewing the log there.

  Also, WP:V is a policy, but whether it is being interpreted correctly here is very uncertain. Editors should follow consensus when the application of a rule is uncertain. In any case, do we really want to have to keep reviewing and discussing Mr. Brenneman's controversial actions? Should someone who completely ignores consensus and is increadibly disruptive have the power to delete articles?--Primetime 19:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• If you think not, bring it to WP:RFC/USER. It's not going to be settled here. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm happy to waive the "two-person" and "attempt-to-resolve" thresholds on any request for comment opened, and have started threads at Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Dominionist_political_parties_Afd and Wikipedia:Deletion_review#List_of_themed_timelines_AfD. - brenneman^{L} 23:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Will people please get over this 'you deletionist' nonsense? Hasn't the stylus worn out on that record yet? The article should never have existed. It should never have survived VfD, and if our users didn't skew to an under-20 demographic it probably wouldn't have. The reasons are clearly demonstrated above: it is an inherently POV list. I.e. whether something belongs on it or not is 100% someone's personal point of view. In such a case, even a citation is some one person's point of view, and, since books and magazines are fairly unlikely to waste ink on a list of shock sites, it's fairly unlikely that citations will be to anything more substantial than webpages and blogs and other oracles of crankery. There is no include/exclude to the list except some sniggering kid's "Dude, this is so dissssssgusting!" That's not what encyclopedias do, either electronic or print or written on the waters. If the people editing it can't even make an effort to ensure that everything in it is cited, then they're admitting that the article fails the deletion policy, that it is (and they think should be) inherently POV. That they'd be upset is no reason to bring the matter to AN/I. Geogre 00:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
  • What about the fact that these sites are a significant part of the history of internet trolling? Nobody has yet responded to this point yet. Furthermore, the list is not inherently POV as there are only a few sites which #1 any reasonable person would find flagrantly offensive, and #2 exist for the sole purpose of offending. For example, look at the Miller test or for an application of Canadian law, Little Sisters. These are not "POV" tests. Again, the difference between a shock site, and say a gay porn site is that the gay porn site exists for the purpose of doing business on the internet. So even if someone finds its content offensive and obscene, it is not hard to differentiate from any shock site. I am also an old user on Slashdot and fermilliar with goatse trolls; your argument and implication that a bunch of under-20 year olds made the article and are trying to save it is wrong. Look at the reasons given by people who voted to keep it: One administrator wrote "Unfortunately, this stuff is notable", and another person wrote "The phenomenon of shock sites / picture collections has been around even before the internet. It is too important not to be listed here." - Abscissa 01:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
• these sites are a significant part of the history of internet trolling -- Prove it. WP:V. WP:CITE. And WP:NOR. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

User:EKN

This user seems to be a blatant/vandal troll with various nazi themed edits. They have got by so far by instantly removing a large number of warnings from their page , [129], [130], [131] and attempting to build friendly relations with admins even asking when they get adminship [132]. dubious edits: [[133], [134] [135], [136] [137], [138]. [139], [140]. [141], [142], [143], [144]. , message from another user indicating they are both banned users [[145] (previously discussed here User_talk:SlimVirgin#User:EKN. Arniep 17:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm in touch with EKN about this, and he or she is very much on their last warning. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be suggesting that this user get a new user name (User_talk:EKN#Your_edits). Why is this a good idea when this user is an obvious troll who has posted disgusting anti semitic jokes on two articles, stated Seig Heil on the Hitler page and changed the Polish user template to a Nazi youth template? Arniep 23:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet tag continues to be removed, need block for disruption. =

Users CambridgeBayWeather (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Mangojuice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Deckiller (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Jaranda (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Syrthiss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Thryduulf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keep on removing the sockpuppet tag from their ally Pm_shef (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and his sockpuppet, Theonlyedge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). There is a CheckUser investigation taking place, as well as allegations of sockpuppetry to be found here. A sockpuppet notice on Theonlyedge's userpage continues to be removed by these people. Please block them for disruption. Leotardo 21:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

You realise that you're violating WP:CIV, yes? NSLE _(T+C) at 01:11 UTC (2006-04-20)

User:JzG

This admin JzG is consistently abusing his priviliges by claiming to be applying policies that he has not actually read. His most serious offence was to list 37 signals for deletion, even though its homepage has a link to independent press articles which clearly demonstrate compliance with WP:CORP. In addition he has deleted a whole load of useful links from an article on real time collaborative editors without any warning. He claimed that WP:NOT says only internal links are allowed, but I can find nothing in WP:NOT to give preference to internal links over external ones. Is there any procedure to have admin privilidges revoked? I have tried discussing the issue with him but he says because he is an administrator he must know best. From his homepage it is clear he is (Personal attack removed), is it really sensible to let him sabotage wikipedia on a whim? Davebrooky 22:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

First step to getting admin privileges revoked - don't level gross insults at their fellow admins. Second step: get your facts right. Nominating articles for deletion has nothing to do with admin privileges, and anyone may do it without fear of having their intelligence questioned by the people behind the article. Whether the article is deleted or not is out of Guy's hands, and in the hands of the wider community. Do not make further personal attacks on editors. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 22:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The actual page up for deletion is 37signals. It would help if you would give us specific diffs that point to his alleged bad behviour. It is not our job to make your case for you. You need to provide concrete evidence of exactly what he said or did that you think violates a policy. Johntex\^talk 22:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Collaborative real-time editor which predates this. Davebrooky is on a crusade to include links to software still in alpha, and seems to think that wikilawyering is a great way to achieve that. It is, however, profoundly disheartening to learn that nominating a company of seven employees for deletion is my most serious offence. My reputation as a rouge admin is in tatters - I must go and do some out-of-prcess deletions. Just zis Guy you know? 22:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Bonus points for irony: arguing the toss about WP:NOT in defence of linkspam while adding blatantly self-referential text to two separate articles. Way to go, Dave. Just zis Guy you know? 22:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• It is clear to me that Davebrooky needs a time-out. Therefore, I have blocked him for 3 hours due to his personal attack on JzG, which Samuel_Blanning removed from the post here at ANI. Johntex\^talk 22:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Hmmm. Whether anxiety depression well-controlled by dosulepin counts as "mentally ill" is debatable, but thank you Sam and Johntex for dealing with this. What I find a bit troubling is this level of aggression and disputatiousness in an editor with only a couple of days of history. I find myself wondering whether this is genuinely a new user. Just zis Guy you know? 22:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

People might get the picture that wikilawyering is merely a boring pastime where people point out details concerning notability and argue their well-thought-out solutions to other editors' concerns. Our friend Davebrooky here has shown us all the true meaning of wikilawyering, where the drama continually... uh... oozes from... uh... where the heck drama generally oozes from in the TV courtroom dramas. (I don't know, it just oozes!) I hereby appoint Davebrooky as the Evil Twin of WikiMatlock. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 23:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Dbiv

User:Dbiv removed a legitimate Speedy deletion notice: [146]. The article has already been deleted twice: if User:Dbiv objects he should take it to Speedy deletions and request that a new AFD discussion take place, not unilaterally remove the db notice. --Mais oui! 23:21, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, he can remove the speedy tag and send it to AfD, or just remove the tag and wait for you to send it to AFD, as it is not a speedy. It's not a re-delete speedy, as the content is not identical (the new article is much more detailed), and it isn't a non-notable speedy, as the page makes an assertion of notability. Whether the article would survive AfD again or not is a different thing, as is using rollback to remove the tag, but AfD is where this should go. Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 23:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Latest Zephram Stark sockpuppet

Postponed Longhorn (talk · contribs). Continuing the work of recently banned sockpuppet Vista Delay (talk · contribs). Please ban this one too. --JW1805 (Talk) 01:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh that's just silly. Do you think everyone in the world is Stark just because they disagree with you?

You deleted talk page conversation from many users and I restored it. Does that make me Stark? --Postponed Longhorn 01:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)