Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

User:Striver/users that view the 9/11 attacks article as govement pov

i created a user sub-page to gather information, NOT to create dialog, and MONGO just deleted it outright. Could somebody undelete it? Is he allowed to just outright delete my userspace sub-article just like that? --Striver 00:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate conduct by admin InShaneee

Pantherarosa was listed on WP:PAIN for making personal attacks against User:Melca. [1] When I looked into the situation, I noticed that Pantherarosa had been removing warnings. I restored the warnings and add the do not remove warnings tag to his/her talk page. This caused Pantherarosa to start attacking me. I elevated the NPA warnings but (s)he continued. I continued to elevate the warnings but to no avail. I became annoyed and made one incivil remark to Pantherarosa. InShaneee posted a NPA warning on my page. [2] When I contacted him about it [3], he admitted that my comments were not personal attacks, but still refused to change the warning. He also said that all of my edits violated WP:CIVIL [4], when in fact there was only one. [5] When I asked him for an explaination[6], he pretty much resorted to "it is because I say so". [7] [8] [9] [10]

Secondly, one of my comments was incivil towards Pantherarosa who had repeatedly made personal attacks against me. Wikipedia's policies go for all users regardless of circumstances, so an incivil warning should stay on my talk page. However, because I had made one incivil comment toward the other user, InShaneee refused to block Pantherarosa. Not only is this a double standard, but I was not even the one who had the brunt of Pantherarosa's attacks. As another user said on InShanne's talk page: Obviously you aren't interested to even consider that your action isen't the proper conduct of an experienced administrator. I agree with this completely, and to add on that InShaneee is refusing to punish Pantherarosa to make a point to me, even though I wasn't even the person Pantherarosa was originally attacking. The full discussion on WP:PAIN is here: Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard#Pantherarosa (talk • contribs) Paul Cyr 21:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Administrator, User:InShaneee exhibited a double standard when blocking me. He blocked me and stated on my Talk Page, "You have been blocked for 24 hours for disruption. If a user comes here, to an encyclopedia, asking for information, it shouldn't be difficult to point him to such info". However, I spelled out for him expilicity how the answers I gave, difference, were w links that are sometimes in and sometimes out of the article, Scientology but are the most direct possible answers to the user's specific question. I also spelled out to him why the link answering, "when did the present Church of Scientology start?" is not present in the article today. InShaneee came up with the term, "linkspamming" to describe his blocking me for that answer. Then, in discussion on my talk page, User:InShaneee he made me a promise. "Fax us over some of those high-level OTs and I PROMISE you it'll get fixed up." [11] Left unsaid was "I'm with the Cartel, you should betray Scientology and Fax "us" confidential documents." Whether he is aware or not, such an invitation is unethical to make and would be unethical to fulfill.Terryeo 22:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both users above. User:InShaneee's conduct is not proper for an administrator. There's more to being an admin than giving warnings out like candies and refusing to discuss related issues. User:InShaneee was adamant that accusing someone of trolling even if they are a troll constitutes as a personal attack, when I displayed that he himself has accused other users of trolling and that it's hypocritical he blocked me for 24 hours in retaliation.--Eupator 03:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Being unpopular is usually par for the course for admins, especially those who have SP type roles. I personally think that InShaneee is a good lad, a bit of a laugh. Thanks. Wallie 05:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe our statements don't address his sense of humor, but address his judgement. Though his sense of humor would be a subject that might be explored. :) Terryeo 05:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You know what's even funnier? I was warned by InShaneee for making a similar remark as Wallie just did. I imagine that if you weren't defending him, he'd give you a civility warning. In fact, mocking a complaint is incivil, so why don't you deserve a warning? Paul Cyr 20:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I realise you were hurt at my comments. I have said sorry on your talk page. I did not want to get in the way of your compliant. Wallie 00:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I have no problem with being called "a good lad". :) --InShaneee 00:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Inshaneee is quite right in saying that calling someone a troll is a personal attack even if they are trolling. Just like calling an obese person "fat" is a personal attack. Just like calling someone with cerebral palsy a "spastic" is a personal attack. Just like telling an ugly person they're ugly is a personal attack. Just like calling someone with low intelligence "dumb" is a personal attack. I could go on but I think you get the message. The accuracy or otherwise of a personal attack does not make it any less a personal attack. In fact, usually the accurate personal attacks are the most hurtful. Snottygobble 05:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not always. WP:NPA is pretty clear that the comment may be considered personal attack "if said repeatedly, in bad faith, or with sufficient venom." If it is a relevant and fundamentally informative observation, then by definition it's not a personal attack. FeloniousMonk 05:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Calling anyone a troll is always wrong. It is a device to get your own way when editing articles. Wallie 18:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Snottygobble on this. There is an additional argument here about not feeding trolls; calling a troll a troll is an indication to them that they have provoked an emotional response, and as such is an incitement to troll some more. Better just to leave the default messages. --bainer (talk) 13:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Eupator, can you provide diffs of where InShaneee accused others of trolling? I just want to make sure all claims are linked to with diffs so that we don't have people accusing others of lying. Paul Cyr 05:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Just look at his contributions, you will find many instances such as this [12], I merely pointed out that it's hypocritical for which he blocked me for 24 hours.--Eupator 15:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't see anything wrong. Will (^E_@) T 17:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I was not going to engage in this, partly because I qualified InShaneee warning against me, Eupator and Paul Cyr as a lack of experience from this administrators part, but to my surprise having seen him/her sign a disput which I don't ever remember having seen him/her even being engaged in or involved in or having even edited those articles or their talk page [13], I had to conclude that this was a retaliation to my remark about him/her [14], [15]. Administrators should not act like this, retaliating against a user like this reflect immaturity. Also, I am troubled that some veterans find it nothing wrong about InShaneee block against Eupator. While in practice there is nothing wrong in blocking someone for not respecting a guideline or policy, that the principal alleged victim here of Eupator remark was InShaneee, and to the measure that he/she took the decision to block him, I believe, InShaneee made this something personal and obviously reflect unexperience and somehow a lack of judgement. Also, that Lutherian is a troll, I will repeat this and should never be blocked for this. A checkusers has reflected that he is indeed a troll, he has done nothing in Wikipedia other then trolling and slandering members. Insteed of provoquing veterans of Wikipedia by giving warnings because those veterans have retaliated against a troll, he/she should work to prevent such things to happen. Fad (ix) 18:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Calling someone a troll is no different than calling someone a vandal - the characterization should only be made when assuming good faith is no longer reasonable. Otherwise, it shouldn't be considered a personal attack, as it indicates specifically whether an editor's edits primarily disrupt Wikipedia; it doesn't address any personal trait. HKT 20:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, though I think in most cases there are far better alternatives to using such terms. If a troll needs to be dealt with, he should certainly be dealt with, but I just don't see how saying "You're a troll" solves anything in most cases. --InShaneee 21:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

True. When it comes to warning others, though, "Watch out - he's a troll" is easier than "A high percentage of his edits exhibit trolling, and this trolling is further reflected in his edit summaries and talk page remarks." Nevertheless, I think that "You're a troll" would violate WP:CIVIL rather than WP:NPA. HKT^Talk 22:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has been extensive about how to address a user, specifically the use of the term "troll", "vandal", characterization of individual editors, etc. Those were not the issues which brought this discussion into existence. InShaneee's (viewed by some editors) inappropriate blocking, inappropriate administrator behaviour was what brought this "good lad's" actions into discussion. Not the words he used, but the actions he took. To revolve around the words used denies the central issue which was the actions he took and the basis he took those actions on. Terryeo 06:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

While were discussing this, these edits were given before and shortly after Pantherarosa received the final warning tag: edit summary [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] blatant attack [21] and yesturday she made two more personal attacks as shown here: [22] and [23]. Specifically, It cannot be tolerated that a kid playing snitch spreads unproven rumors at his fancy! and I do not wish to have to deal with trolling and bad faith slanderous kids. Pantherarosa has already received countless warnings and I believe has begun using sockpuppets to attack me as well. Could someone please block him/her? Given the edit histories of the suspected sockpuppets, I think it's reasonable to assume that they are Pantherarosa's. Therefore I ask that they be blocked indefinately, and the actions by Pantherarosa factored into the action to be taken. Paul Cyr 21:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Am I having hallucinations or am I really being trolled by (Personal attack removed) making bad faith, slanderous assertions, aimed at smearing my (and others') name?? Would all that be in anybody's interest, i wonder? In case I am not having hallucinations, should this (Personal attack removed) individual be tolerated here, playing all sorts of pranks and wasting everybody's precious time? (Personal attack removed) In case this theorem applies, i wonder how he could be helped, maybe by keeping his access blocked for a while, to to give him time for reflection; perhaps, as a consequence, leading to the possible revelation that he actually does not contribute a thing to this ENCYCLOPAEDIA but merely exhausts editors and admins with futile and bothersome trolling? His contributions log, in any event, is conspicuous with similar actions and I have chosen to observe it on my watch list. Pantherarosa 10:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the personal attacks, the diff is here: [24] Paul Cyr 20:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I was blocked by this user while having a dispute with him, an obvious violation of WP:BP, this user has abused his powers numerous times and is out of hand , he thinks it is ok to call anyone and everyone a troll. I think something should be done about him.--GorillazFan Adam 00:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Likely Sock # 54 of User:VaughanWatch

• The first and only edit of Galatti (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was to remove a newly added piece of information from Vaughan, Ontario in similar fashion to the many socks of VaughanWatch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who was banned for running a massive (53 so far) sockpuppets. Requesting an indefinite ban on Galatti. - pm_shef 01:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• Anyone? - pm_shef 22:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you may want to check with WP:RFCU first. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• The people with checkuser power are sick of the VaughanWatch escapade already. At 53 and counting, its more efficient to just follow the edit pattern - pm_shef 02:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

ILovePlankton (talk · contribs)

seems to be having difficulty with his/her bot assisted vandalism reversion, and is reacting with hostility, user seems to have an odd history of near vandalistic edits, mixed with mostly vandalproof assisted vandalism patrolling, perhaps someone should talk to him/her?--152.163.100.65 01:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, IP addresses from AOL often have vandalism histories. So does 152.163.100.197. I think this user just erroneously removed your db on YESSIR using VandalProof given the AOL IP, then made note of it when you advised them of it. Doesn't seem like a big deal. -- Samir धर्म 02:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record, ILovePlankton is a "him" (says so on his userpage) and I have never known this . Can you not create an account or something so that your edits will be attributed to just you? It would be better than getting blocked all the time for using a shared IP (you are aware, are you not, that you are using an AOL proxy server, and as such, other users' edits are being attributed to the IP you're using?) I suggest finding ways around this or switching ISPs. — Nathan ^(talk) 02:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

User names are just as vulnerable to AOL autblocks as IPs unfortunately, and tagging articles that have been recreated vandalistically, is easier when the people recreating them, can't follow you home, if you catch my drift--152.163.100.65 02:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Then as I said, why don't you switch ISPs so as to avoid this problem (it comes back to AOL proxies)? — Nathan ^(talk) 02:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Because switching ISPs just to edit wikipedia with slightly less inconvenience, is a bit unrealistic?--152.163.100.65 02:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It's realistic when you consider that AOL changes the IP address you use every time you open/close your browser. If you are the one paying the bill, you have the power to change this. Other ISPs aren't like that and you'd be a lot less susceptible to a block for something you didn't do. I'm only trying to give constructive advice here, please consider it as such. I'm sure the admins don't want us talking about this here, please stop by my talk page if you want to have a talk about it. I'm only suggesting what I think would be best for you. Please take some time to stop by the link that I posted above (important note: there is even a method of bypassing the proxies that doesn't even require you to change your ISP). There are many many reasons why AOL is generally considered bad. Would you like to discuss this on my talk? — Nathan ^(talk) 02:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like switching have you considered complaining about the problem to AOL? We can't alter the way AOL operates, but AOL can. If enough AOL users were to complain about the idiots to AOL then perhaps AOL would do something about it. --pgk^(talk) 06:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I use AOL, but I wouldn't solely change to a more expensive ISP based on Wikipedia editing... Ian13/talk 16:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Exicornt Vandalism/EddieSegoura

While checking into a possible sockpuppet situation on RfA, I discovered that Y-y-yoda (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and DavidOr tiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), both blocked exicornt vandals, are sockpuppets of EddieSegoura (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was suspected in the mass-exicornt vandalism on several other Wikimedia projects. Both had already been permablocked for exicornt vandalism, but a decision needs to be made on what to do with EddieSegoura. The floor is open for suggestions. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 04:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure connection? An indefinite block would seem clearly called for. See above section. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Essjay, how reliable is the connection? IIRC, the vandalism was done through AOL, so a CheckUser could be unreliable there. I would support an indefinite block if it were the case, though. Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 04:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If it were AOL, I wouldn't have reported it as a confirmed result; I am aware of the proxying behavior of AOL, and the unreliable nature of thier IP shifts. The above named accounts are not using AOL, they are using a static non-AOL IP, they are the only users using it, and they are using it in a manner that dispells any suggestion of dynamic assignment. They are the same person. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 04:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If they are the same person, then indefinate block is in order. He has been trolling for way too long. DGX 04:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It's been roughly six months of trolling, FWIW. —Viriditas | Talk 06:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've applied an indefinite block; further review, as always, welcome. Now I'm going to try not to get too maudlin about the whole thing. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I took the unusual approach of overturning Bunchofgrapes' original block and replacing an identical one of my own. I left some rationale behind the decision here. At the moment, I think we need to decide what would be the best thing to do. At the moment, I think what would be best to do is to leave the block as is, and any administrator who wishes to take responsibility for shortening the block can do so at their own volition. At minimum, the block should stay for a little bit, but in deference to the original blocking sentiment, I'd like to get more opinions and see what others think about the situation. Thanks for your time and responses. --HappyCamper 06:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The recent activities of his sockpuppets show that he still doesn't understand how to work within Wikipedia, or else he's been trolling us all along. And the cross-project exic*nt fun suggests the latter. But in either case, it's been six months, and I think the community's patience is thoroughly worn out. The block should stand, in my opinion. FreplySpang 06:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Duly noted. Any others? --HappyCamper 06:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

<--- unindenting... Block fully supported on my end. I've dealt with this user before, and he has really, really worn out the patience of a lot of us, both here and at Wiktionary. NSLE _(T+C) at 07:04 UTC (2006-05-26)

I agree in that the block should stand; I also agree that Eddie's been trolling the crap out of us since the original Exicornt debate. He was fully aware that sockpuppets were the wrong way to go about things.  RasputinAXP  c 13:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the block too. Just wondering, is there any way a steward can check the IP range from this report on other projects, to be make a case for a Wikimedia-wide ban? Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 18:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

That would require a separate checkuser on every project; if there is reason to think he's active on another project, then I'm happy to hand the IPs off to a steward so they can check, but outside that, I doubt you're going to convince a steward to set permissions on hundreds of wikis and spend several days checking each. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 21:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

He also uses AOL, wth which he's been evading his block/ban. NSLE _(T+C) at 01:02 UTC (2006-05-27)

He's prolly upset over the whole ordeal and is sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.65 (talk • contribs) 07:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Too late now, Eddie. --Calton | Talk 07:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Never. What have I done to wrong you, Calton? I never attacked You or messed up Your edits.

While the small handful of users wants Me to quit editing WP, I will continue working without an username. I am willing to negotiate and agree with a shorter "Block" but if My username is locked indefinitely, what have I got to lose by contributing more edits if they're productive. Besides, this discussion is over fact I have more then one account that posted content that another user rejected. --[Eddie] 21:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Possible Wikistalker....

Involed users User_talk:Fluffy999, User_talk:Damac

Mahogany myself as the Advocate

A recent request came in and user Fluffy/whatever felt that User: Damac was giving him unwanted special attention like continually editing his work the minute after he did saying his work was plagarism, unencyclopedic ect. Here's his statement:

• The problems raised by this user with my work do appear on face value to have merit, but are a result of my inexperience. This user doesnt subject anyone else to the same scrutiny or same standards.
• Since making my edits to "his" articles, (which arguably raised the articles to a higher acedemic standard), he has been on my back constantly. He has discovered "problems" with spelling, grammar, capitalisation of filenames uploaded, "copyright infringement", my "plagarism", my personality, etc. This has all been played out on the respective talk pages.
• As part of this behaviour he has introduced two deliberate errors into articles. One I challenged him on, generating work for myself in doing so, the other remains in the article.
• He is constantly hovering over edits I make, clearly watching my contributions page. For example he had reported "copyright infringement" in the images I uploaded yesterday within thirty minutes.
• He had threatened me with "you'll have some editors down on your back once they pick up on it [the supposed copyright infringement](and they usually do without being told as they monitor what's uploaded."

Despite me asking him why he is picking on me, and involving an admin, he refuses to explain or stop. Taken individually these actions may seem reasonable on their own, but as part of a campaign to harass it is becoming old and making my experience editing wikipedia a nightmare. I would like arbitration or something to make him stop this. Please help, thanks. User: SockPuppetFluffy999 10:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Also Fluffy999 was even to scared to come to the admin. noticeboard b/c he felt that the user in question had so many friends that no one would listen. Any help would be appreciated also I want to know what options we have in this such as having them seperated somehow b/c this is horribly unfair to Fluffy Mahogany

It's a bit early for arbitration. I see he has been asked to stay away from you on his talk page. I'd like to see if he does just that. I'd advise fluffy999 to stay away from Damac's favorite pages too, so that he doesn't see anything on his watchlist. Hopefully that alone will resolve the matter. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 20:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello, the problem is that his "favourite pages" are the pages i've created or worked on. Pages he has shown zero interest in before. I have dbauthored all the images I uploaded to wikipedia- around 30, in protest at his treatment. If I dont do this, he will just challenge them all in an effort to harass. He had already been asked to give me a "wide berth" but ignored it, he is obsessed! Fluffy999 13:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:POINT. --InShaneee 15:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment:I haven't had any contact with User:Damac, but Fluff999 has been less than helpful in resolving confusion over image licencing [25]. He has also, in what seems like an act of tantrum, removed the licence information from hundreds of images he had uploaded, see [26]. I think a bit of maturity would go a long way on both sides of this issue. Seabhcán 14:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello in response to the above comment by Seabhcan; Damac has now escalated his campaign by threatening me again, check his talk. I decided to withdraw my vouch for the copyright status of images previously uploaded to wikipedia as Damac will just report them all as copvios to bait and harass. My contributions to wikipedia are entirely serious and im not prone to tantrums or infringing copyright. My offence appears to be having a slightly higher awareness of the facts in articles Damac believes he "owns". He cannot stand this but nevertheless I really would like to go on making contributions without Damac perched on my shoulder the entire time- no one else receives this level of attention or scrutiny from him. Fluffy999 15:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

User:EurowikiJ

The user keeps removing sourced material, 90% of his edits are reverts, which he does almost never discussing it. He was warned that this is against wikipedia policies, and keeps removing the warning after it was explained to him by an admin that such behaviour is considered vandalism. Very disruptive users, inflamed many edit wars, where more reasonable Croatian users like Zmaj have for instance edited the paragraph about attacks on people from ex-Yugoslavia, he blanks the whole paragraph, despite the fact that it is well sourced (including UNHCR links, and both Croatian and Serbian newspaper articles). Next, he removes, completely without discussion, the whole paragraph about minefields, that was agreed as a compromise version by many users - CRoatian , Serbian and third party, on the page minefields and tourism section. He uses misleading edit summaries (saying that there factual inaccuracies, while there are none - especially strange since the thing is well sourced and not disputed by other Croatian editors). In short, a very inflamatory edit warrior that constantly reverts, removes warning and completely and blatantly disregards wikipedia policies that he is warned about. Also, removes comments of other users, which is not very civil. Mostssa 15:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Mostssa (whose actions are described just before User:EurowikiJ) contributions can be described as at least tendentious, if not using some more harsh terms. User:EurowikiJ is not as used to wikipedia rules as Mostssa, but my question is following: are the rules more important than the content of articles? All wikipedia users should work together to make wikipedia better, but sometimes some wikipedia editors are so biased to one side so it can be even impossible to deny obvious fallacies (or irrelevant), and just blanking appropriate sentences is the right thing to do. SpeedyGonsales 16:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't really approve EurowikiJ's behaviour, but I certainly understand it.

This issue is just part of a much wider problem - a very sudden and very big surge in anti-croatian propaganda by Mostssa and a few other users that started around May the 10th. This might be a really really strange coincidence or, more possible, a meat-puppetry. It's possible that Mostssa doesn't know about it or might not even be a part of it, but I found it very unpropabble.

Almost entire croatian community here is trying to deal with this group of users (including Mostssa) whose only goal here, as can be seen by their contributions, is to spread croatophobia on wikipedia. Great deal of us is behaving properly, by the rules and EurowikiJ is just the one that lost his nerves waitting for admins to finally stop this organised spreading of hatred against Croats.

I can't really blame him for that. --Ante Perkovic 06:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

A mass production of sockpuppets?

A new user has uploaded Image:Ds2f(2).png, and about 5 new users (they are still in the new user log as of this message) have put the image on their page. What does anyone make of this? It seems kind of bizarre to me.-- The ikiroid  18:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I see what he did thur. Apple Juice from Concentrate, Orange Juice from Concentrate, etc. Clever. Guy seems to know something about Wikipedia, though. Until the socks start being abusive or they get above 5-7, we should probably leave it be. Might want to ask the image uploader to tag the socks as his, though. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 18:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I disagree. If you look at his talkpage it's apparent that he has an abusive agenda with wikipedia, just look at his conversation with User:Mike Rosoft. He may be planning to use these accounts as meatpuppets to defend the deletion of the articles he created.-- The ikiroid  20:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The image seems to violate the use of the Apple computers logo, isn't it a copyright violation? User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The image seems to be clear copy vio and as such should be deleted. I recommend leaving the socks until a problem occurs. If it does, block them. If the user persists in this behavior, they should get an indef block as exhausting community patience. JoshuaZ 02:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm tagging the image for ifd under CV.-- The ikiroid  17:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello. These are not sock puppets of me. Their good ol' friends of mine and I would like to ask you to remove the sock puppet tag from their user talk pages and the like. Thanks--AppleJuicefromConcentrate 21:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Images OK'd for speedy deletion

AppleJuicefromConcentrate has given the go-ahead for us to delete the images.[27] They'll upload one that doesn't violate Fair Use later.-- The ikiroid  21:32, 28

May 2006 (UTC)

Now about the sock puppets. I can honestly say that these are not sock puppets of me and are just some aquaintances of mine. So can you please remove the sock puppet tag thing from their user talks?--AppleJuicefromConcentrate 21:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Cite tags as edit war

I am having a lot of trouble editing these days because User:SynergeticMaggot is throwing almost insane numbers of {{citation}}: Empty citation (help) and tags on any page that is critical of Aleister Crowley. The worst problems have occurred on the [[Aleister Crowley][ page itself of course, and details aout the dispute can be seen on the talk page, but now he is asking for cites on the page Abramelin Oil, where he is threatening on the talk page to remove material that briefly mentions plant symbolism in natural magic by calling for cites -- to what i estimate to be 1,700 different socioogical studies of the magical practices from 250 different cultures, comprising the works of 1,500 authors. He has asked for cites rather than look up simple things. For instance, he asked for a cite to the book, chapter, and verse containing the quoted text of a recipe for Holy Oil in the Bible, which any editor could check at google if he sincerely wanted to IMPROVE Wikipedia. I am waaaay past assuming he is editing in good faith. Even articles that contain references to cited sources within a paragraph of text are being citation-tagged by him, resulting in TWO cites -- one in the text and the other in a footnote -- and then he goes back in and asks for a third and a fourth cite for each sentence in the pargraph. If the cites are not forthcoming, he deltes -- no, not the uncited sentence -- not the insufficiently cited parapgrah -- he deletes the entire sub-section! It is maddening, frustrating, and uncivil, and his intentions are obviously to censor any ngative comments about Aleister Crowley, as well as anything that i am writing hat even remotely alludes to Aleister Crowley. Meanwhile, other Crowleyites have called my edits "garbage" and "vandalism" and implied that i have fabricated false cites when, in actualiy, he was referring ANOTHER editor's cites (and they were not false, but were made to an edition of a book that these folks did not have). Then there are the specious claims that WP does not allow an author's own writings to be quoted as evidence that he is a racist, but that a second partty must be quoted to make the claim.Catherineyronwode 10:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the cite tags and locked the page, and now I'm going out. Review and undo invited. Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Karnei has now picked up the technique and applied it to a discussion on AfD: [28] and [29]. --woggly 15:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Killed those off. I'll go on a chainsaw rampage if someone readds them. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 16:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I wasnt threatening actually. Although I may challenge material as Wikipedia tells me. I gave a list of examples, it was voted on, and then removed (Aleister Crowley talk page). The user who wrote it (King Vegita), did not care. The complaining was from another editor (CAtherine). As for the Abramelin oil page, I never put cite tags on that article. I merely gave examples to someone who claimed that every statement on the article was perfectly cited (it wasnt and still isnt). Then the user Catherine began cursing at me, and Tom Harrison removed it. I also commented on this on his talk page (User_talk:Tom_harrison#Aleister_Crowley. I think i've been more than fare here, seeing as how I wished to discuss the matter, instead of having some sort of edit war. The fact of the matter is that there needs to be citation for alot of comments and statements on the Aleister Crowley page, and I've brought them up as talking point. And as usual, no one discusses anything until action is taken. So how long do I have to wait before I add fact tags and start removing information with no sources? Wikipedia:Citing sources tells me i really dont have to wait. So, I'm not understanding exactly what I'm doing wrong here. Zos 21:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, TomHarrison, you forgot the mention that you removed a personal attack. Here

This is evidence of that Catherine has made no serious attempts at a compromise. I've given numerous examples of her not citing statements properly, and she continues to use verbal abuse in violation of wiki talk/ettiq and is uncivil. Here are some quote from the page:

• ":*DUMB, STUPID MAGGOT"
• "You bullshit flinging, scum-fucking idiot. "
• "You are shit for brains and you seriously need to really get your ass busted for LYING ABOUT ME ON WIKIPEDIA.You are a troll, a vandal, and a degraded cretin. Piss on you for every rude and STUPID thing you have done here, and will do here, and will do for the rest of your miserable and loutish careeer as a Crowley apologist, and for the rest of your defective life. "
• "Do what thou wilt, Maggot -- but don't you EVER take my name in vain agin, you despicable lying little rat-fuck. "

The fact of the matter is, I never once accused her of anything, but fact checked her sources and asked (I'm not the only one asking here either) which book version she was using.

I've tried to be as polite as possible, but I'm left with not knowing how to handle her on a talk page.

I've also stated before that I don't have a bias to the issue, I've been more than willing to discuss anything thats added, and have even attempted to add material that may discredit the author. Zos 22:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, to correct myself, I have only put one cite tag on the Abramelin oil page. I just remembered this. Zos 00:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Though I don't wish to have to bother with this, I would like to point out point 2 of WP:V, one of the three overriding policies of of Wikipedia. "2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor."

Further on, when it explains this policy: "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, a good idea is to move it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the {{fact}} template, or tag the article by adding {{not verified}} or {{unsourced}}."

When someone adds citation needed, on an uncited statement, they are already being nice. They could outright delete it right then and there, and no one would be allowed to touch them for it. If it needs to be readded, it should be done with a citation. Now, if they are kind enough to simply add {{fact}}, then how can you simply remove the requests for citations and protect the page? Let's look at policy here, you cannot simply decide you don't like the policy and decide to prevent WP:V from being enforced here.

KV 00:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If you think the page should not be protected, you can ask that it be unprotected at WP:RFPP. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Catherine

Catherine, is also attacking 999, and trying to delete everything she has put on wikipedia ([Here]), as well as accusing others of being a sock puppet. Zos 00:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked User:Catherineyronwode for twenty-four hours for personal attacks. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

User:JulianChan uploading copyrighted images with false licenses

Request

Moved from WP:AN to keep threads together. Jkelly 16:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Would an administrator please look into JulianChan's contributions. She is continuing a massive upload of copyrighted images despite being warned/asked to stop. --Hetar 19:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't look like the account has uploaded any more after the last warning. The user's image uploads appear to be a medium-sized mess... there are more than fifty images that need to be listed for deletion. Jkelly 20:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Image problems continue

I would like to ask any admin to watch User:JulianChan's image uploading while so many uploads are claimed to be "free images", from www.gakei.com but the source website does not automatically grant copyright permission. The uploader has been warned at his/her talk page. If the problem does not stop, please consider blocking based on policies.--Jusjih 12:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I just reviewed all images uploaded by Special:Contribution/JulianChan. Unfortunately, all of them are from websites that have not given GFDL-compactible permissions but the uploader claimed all to be copyrighted with free use in error. These can pose major problems, so any admin, please take appropriate actions.--Jusjih 14:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked the account until I get assurance from the user that they will stop. Not only were they continuing to upload copyright-infringing images after being warned not to and adding spurious "CopyrightedFreeUse" templates to those images, they had begun to revert the cleanup attempts and PUI templates. Jkelly 16:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The user removed the block message I left without comment. Jkelly 16:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Copyright

I am speedying all gakei.com images per this notice on the website:

"IMPORTANT: ALL bus photo images were taken by GAKEI, who retains the copyright privilege over them. You are NOT welcome to show any of them to the public in any form or by any means without his permission IN ADVANCE."

Cleanup to follow... RadioKirk talk to me 18:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Update

ALL gakei.com images are gone, page cleanup to come. Meantime, four images uploaded from http://www.nwff.com.hk/ will need the assistance of someone more familiar with Copyright law than I (the website has no apparent copyright notice and I don't recall what is and is not assumed). I am unable to locate the source of a final image, even after I figured out how to search for it in Chinese. RadioKirk talk to me 20:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty easy; Thanks to our brilliant law, we have no rights until we are given them by the owner. The exception is fair use; Refer to the current fair use templates we have for the general scenarios that they need to mold to and the general guidelines needing to be met. Basically, if the pictures are being used to show the subject of the picture, it's cool. Otherwise, we can't use them. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 21:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

And, of course, fair use must be asserted, which these remaining five fail to do :) RadioKirk talk to me 22:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Annoying bot report.

There is a bot that keeps pestering me about unsourced images, even when the source of the image has been provided. Eventually, an admin ends up deleting the images based on the bot's actions.

Attempted efforts to contact Carnildo, the author of OrphanBot, has been met with silence.

I need to have this bot off my ... case; How can it be stopped??? --Folajimi 17:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Humans tag images as unsourced, not the bot. It just tracks down tagged images and notifies you that they've been tagged. Also, while you have been correctly "pestered" over Image:Wibi Soerjadi.jpg (which has no source), other deleted images like Image:Patphelan.jpg and Image:Sen16.jpg were tagged by you as a "don't know", so they were recognised by the bot as lacking licensing data. It asked you to add it, but you didn't, so an admin deleted them. Johnleemk | Talk 17:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I must be missing something here, because I included http://www.soerjadi.com/Wibi3.jpg as the source of the image... --Folajimi 18:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

What you're missing is that you put the URL as a parameter to a template that doesn't accept such a parameter. It never rendered, so either a human user or a bot wouldn't see it on the Image Description Page. Jkelly 18:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

How about ? --Folajimi 20:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Never had any source information at all. Jkelly 21:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting, because I distinctly recall including http://www.cineastentreff.de/teleschau/200548/4/200548_161418_2_012.jpg as the source of the image... --Folajimi 21:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the description page, you can check the history yourself, it was tagged as {{promotional}} with no source information at all. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 23:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The only reason I remember the URL was because I included it after the bot first complained about the source of the image, and included it in a note that I left on the bot owner's page.

I'm not sure if this matters, but I noticed that the deletion log for the showed that it was deleted twice for some reason. --Folajimi 01:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal/religious attacks

Politician818 is obviously having trouble learning from his/her past troubles on Wikipedia: 1, 2, 3

I don't claim to have handled the situation spectacularly, but this user has a history of personal attacks and other violations, and thought it better to post here before it _really_ gets out of hand. Search4LancerFile:Pennsylvania state flag.png 17:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Politician818 seems to be operating under the mistaken impression that they are part of some sort of debating internet forum. I'd recommend gently encouraging them to avoid specualting about the intelligence of other contributors, read WP:NOR for the content dispute, and reminding them that we're supposed to be working on an encyclopedia here, not scoring ad hominem points in internet debating. Jkelly 18:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Funniest thing so far is him trying to insult me by accusing me of being Jesse Jackson. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Daz Sampson (talk · contribs)

What should be done with this user? As far as I'm concerned they have an inappropriate username. Should they be blocked per the blocking policy? (By the way, I feel obligated to say that this user came to attention by remarking on my talk page that they are planning on filing an "offical report" against me because of my supposed removal of negative comments on the Daz Sampson talk page. This is partially why I am seeking advice rather than just blocking the user). --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 20:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I would be inclined to block, unless he can prove he is actually Daz Sampson. — FireFox 20:58, 28 May '06

I've blocked him. See the first version of his userpage, which says "I am not that Daz Sampson" (he later added "or am I?" but I think the answer is still 'no'). By the way, if he actually was Daz Sampson how would he go about proving it? --Sam Blanning^(talk) 22:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

setting up a subpage of his website with a claim to the username would be one aproach.Geni 00:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What does this mean?

Copied from the new user log:

• 13:50, May 28, 2006 Dcarrasqueira created new account User:Pedro carras (Talk | contribs | block)

Does that mean they created a puppet?-- The ikiroid  20:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

In essence, yes... but that's alright, unless they're acting maliciously. --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 20:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the similar names, I wonder if perhaps Dcarrasqueira created an account for a family member, in which case it might not even be benign puppetry. FreplySpang 14:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Anti-French sentiment deletion

A paragraph from the article Anti-French sentiment in the United States has been deleted by User:Tocquevil. The paragraph is about "popular anti-French allegations" and lists several news events relating to France which Americans have objected to.

He just deleted it with no explanation and no comment in the talk page. He doesn't seem to have a user page either; I'm not sure if he even exists, since user pages are normally deleted when a user leaves. I reverted it and it was deleted again. I believe this deletion is questionable, but if I keep restoring it it violates the 3RR. Exactly how can I handle putting the paragraph back?

(I originally posted this in Village Pump and someone said I should go here instead.) Ken Arromdee 20:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This is the diff. It looks like a pretty reasonable edit to me. The paragraph was completely unsourced, and seems to be a part of some list designed to make a point. Then again, the whole article is much the same; if one were to start removing all of the original research, there wouldn't be much of anything left. Jkelly 20:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The information is already present in the Mumia Abu-Jamal page. It isn't sourced there, either, but it's a recent news event and deleting it for being unsourced strikes me as very disingenuous. I can Google for a random newspaper article about the subject and add it again with the source, but somehow I doubt that'll help.

And of course the list is there to make a point. The point is "these are some things done by France which people don't like". That is, after all, what the section is about. It doesn't violate NPOV to give a list of reasons why people don't like France, in an article about people not liking France. (And since User:Tocquevil gave no reason why he was deleting the paragraph, any claims that he deleted it for NPOV or lack of sources are purely speculation.)

But at any rate, that isn't the problem. The problem is that a user has repeatedly deleted a section from a controversial article with no comment and nothing on the article's talk page, where the user's contributions show that he has no user page, has only been around for two days and has edited nothing other than this article and a closely related one. This shouldn't be happening. Ken Arromdee 01:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark and Mistress Selina Kyle: unblocking

Mistress Selina Kyle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — Blu Aardvark (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

14:58, 28 May 2006 Linuxbeak unblocked Blu Aardvark (contribs) (Unblocking, being mentored) --Was this discussed anywhere? Seems unwise considering Blu Aardvark's use of socks and agitating for disruption of wikipedia at WikipediaReview. Will Linuxbeak be mentoring his sockpuppets too? FeloniousMonk 22:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

We have discussed the sockpuppet issue. He has acknowledged that yes, sockpuppets are not how you go doing things here. He acknowledges that he has made mistakes and he is apologetic. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 22:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Has he said he won't use socks? Has he disclosed all his other socks? Really this fellow has really relished pissing on other Wikipedians in the past. It would be nice to see if he has acknowledged this and resolved not to do it again. You know, publicly. I don't want to go three months down the line and see him chortling all over Wikipedia about being let back despite all the crap he unloaded on us. Most important, does he recognise the authority of the arbitration committee? --Tony Sidaway 22:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

But has the community discussed it? I suspect that there's not many who are familiar with his recent sentiments posted at WikipediaReview advocating disruption here that share your optimism. This should have been discussed first. FeloniousMonk 22:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand and totally accept your take on this. Yes, this was not a community decision, but I have worked with previously hostile users in the past. I am asking you to trust me. You don't have to accept this, but I am asking for a grace period of one week. This has worked in the past, and I've produced favorable results. I understand your rationally guarded and skeptical stance, but I'm just asking for one week. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 22:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be easier to grant you that were his unblocking done with the community's knowledge and input beforehand. The way this was handled, and knowing his history, makes this all very suspect. FeloniousMonk 22:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"Community" is a weasel-word here, he was blocked, the involved parties agreed, and nobody outside complained. It's not like everyone got together and said "we will never ever let this guy come back". I think this is a fine opportunity for supervised mentoring. Ashibaka tock 22:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I imagine that this provisional situation limits them to these named accounts and these named accounts only. Mackensen (talk) 22:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

While I won't say that we should -not- use off-wiki material for on-wiki actions, we need to apply it everywhere or nowhere. Blu Aardvark's account on WikipediaReview could have been compromised, it could be a impersonator, we have no way of knowing because it is not tied to Wikipedia by technical or legal means. We need to look at his history on Wikipedia and the history of his confirmed sockpuppets (via CheckUser) and decide on that. If his socks are disruptive by no other means than the fact they exist to allow a banned user to return (IE: No voterigging, vandalism, etc), and some time has passed... Let's let him back. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 22:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I question the "success rate" that Linuxbeak mentions. A similar case is that of user:JarlaxleArtemis (JA). He had been in the middle of a second ArbCom case when he lashed out so horribly that he was immediately and permanently banned. Subsequently he contacted Linuxbeak and pleaded for a second chance, promising to do a number of things if allowed back. Linuxbeak (who had borne the brunt of JA's anger) generously allowed him back under a strict mentorship and based on JA's completion of several steps, including apologizing, undoing previous vandalism, etc. Once back, JA did none of the things required of him and after a short period of good behavior went back to behaviors that had led to his previous ArbCom cases. Linuxbeak had gotten busy with Wikimani, and two other appointed mentors had lost interest, which left JA unsupervised and he took advantage of it. Eventually I noticed the trouble, asked Linuxbeak for help, but he was still too busy to do anything, so I intervened, which took considerable time. I'd like to ask Linuxbeak how this mentorship will be handled differently from JA's in order to prevent a similar problem. -Will Beback 23:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

And MARMOT ended up indefinitely blocked again? --pgk^(talk) 23:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I am appointing mentors that have the time to dedicate. Also, I will retain final say in mentorship-related matters such as veto power as to ensure that everything goes smoothly. The thing about Jarlaxle is that while he had rough moments, he eventually learned how to play Wiki. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 23:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This is way too little information for us just to take it on your word. Who exactly are these mentors? Who'll be minding the minders? FeloniousMonk 23:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

As one of the administrators involved with Blu Aardvark, I think it is a good idea that we offer him a shot at being a good Wikipedian again. I don't believe he is intrinsically a bad person, because he has shown some evidence in his Wikipedia career of being a decent Wikipedian; he has just made a series of recent bad judgements, and undertaken less-than-acceptable actions as a consequence. I don't believe that should make him persona non grata as regards Wikipedia, and thus I think we should offer him another go. So long as we watch his account carefully, and expeditiously block him again if he partakes in unacceptable behaviour, I see not a scrap of harm that could be caused by allowing him another chance provided his behaviour is watched assiduously. Yes, it is true this wasn't arrived at by direct consensus, but the present ban was in fact only arrived at via de facto consensus - as in, no dispute, versus a prior decision that a ban was necessary. After all, bans are meant to be merely a necessary mechanical means versus a punitive action, and so I see no reason why a last crack of redemption would be inappropriate. So as a consequence, I call on all Wikipedians to give this a go, as Linuxbeak suggests, and evaluate the results. We may well, of course, gain a possibly good Wikipedian as a consequence. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 23:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Linuxbeak is completely trustworthy. He's one of our best people and I am sure he'll make a great job of this. Best of luck. Nothing I've said here is intended to she doubt on his judgement. It would be nice to see a bit more publicly what is going on, but in the end if Linuxbeak is prepared to block his protege in a case of serious problems, or at least not get in the way of normal administrative action without giving a full account of his interventions, that's okay. I'd love to see Blu Aardvark back again and not doing the troll thing. --Tony Sidaway 23:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Would also like to point out that the other user previously unblocked and mentored, MARMOT, ended up exploiting vulnerabilities in the Mediawiki software and had to be banned, personally, by Jimbo Wales. I wish LB all the luck in the world with these two, but I sure hope they are watched more carefully than the others were, because neither of the two previous mentorships worked in the least. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 23:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Linuxbeak, does he even know he's been unblocked? He hasn't done anything.-- The ikiroid  23:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Though no one has mentioned it, User:Mistress Selina Kyle has also been unblocked as part of the same mentorship. -Will Beback 23:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Good grief! This is risky stuff. -Tony Sidaway 00:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark's encouragement of Amorrow to taunt MusicalLinguist is so completely misguided that I can never support his participation on Wikipedia. FloNight ^talk 23:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have reblocked MSK because she was highly disruptive and made no good contributions. Linuxbeak, it's inappropriate of you to unblock such controversial users without discussion, and in particular given what's happened to Katefan0. These two users are staff members of Wikipedia Review, not ordinary posters. They have shaped the way the website has developed, and both have the power to make sure that the material that damages individuals isn't posted. It seems bizarre to respond to the recent serious attacks on Kelly, Phil, Tony, and Katefan0 by allowing the people in charge to post here again. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

WikipediaReview is not Wikipedia. We have no way to verify if those users are the likewise named users of WikipediaReview; That their accounts have not been compromised if they are those members; What we have is this. Useful contributions to Wikipedia, if only minor. Months have passed; Let's unblock and see how things go. Worse case scenario, if incivility starts again, Special:Block is a click away. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 23:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't be hard to find out if these users admit to being the users of the same name on WR, all we have ot do is ask them. Unless anyone has claimed that they are different then there's really no reason to assume that they aren't the same people. I assume that Linuxbeak, being a responsible person, has already discussed this with the users before he unblocked them, so he should be able to tell us if they deny being involved with WR. -Will Beback 23:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

They've admitted they're the same people, so Avillia's raising that is a red herring. I ask that Linuxbeak come here and give a full explanation of what's been going on behind the scenes. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I'm asking that you please trust me. Selina has made plenty of good contributions. Also, while I grieve what has happened to Katefan0 (I went into a mini-rage earlier today over it, which is something that never happens to me), that wasn't Wikipedia Review as a whole. That was Daniel Brandt. Selina has plenty of good edits, as well: see this. Also, Selina has asked to reply to this, so I would like to unblock her so that she can do so. I know that this might seem totally whacked, but you know me. I'm not going to do something if I don't think good can't come out of it. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 23:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't the good edits that were the problem. Can you describe your conversations with these users? Did they acknowledge that what they did previously was wrong? What did they say thet led you to believe that their future behavior would be different from their past behavior? These two editors are owners/operators/moderators of WR, so they are responsible for its content. Have they made any comments about the realtionship of WR and WP? If we had more informaiton it'd be easier to understand this proposed arrangement. -Will Beback 00:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I also have to ask how many permabanned editors have come back to lead lives as productive editors vs. the near certainty of less disruption from those who are not unblocked. FeloniousMonk 00:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Well let's see, there's Mike Garcia, that's all I can think of. —Khoikhoi 00:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Mike Garcia? Do you really consider him a "success"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jayjg (talk • contribs) 01:28, 29 May 2006.

Compare his User:Michael account to his current one. All I'm saying is that it's the best example of a banned troll who has turned into a good user. —Khoikhoi 01:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. I talked to Blu Aardvark on IRC this afternoon. I approached him, saying that I know that there are problems with Wikipedia, and I'd like to help find solutions, etc. He and I had a very civil and intellegent conversation, and the subject of him being blocked came up. I mentioned that we have a mentorship process to handle things such as this. Blu Aardvark acknowledged that he had violated our policies and rules and that it was not appropriate for him to act as such. He also apologized. His acknowledgement and repentance for what he had done in the past is a sign that there's a possibility of being an active part of the community again. We have done this in the past (remember User:Michael?) and it has worked. Blu Aardvark has agreed to be civil. As far as Mistress Selina is concerned, I would like to direct your attention to User_talk:Mistress_Selina_Kyle#Welcome_back. I would also like to make note that I informed Jimbo of this decision, to which he did not have any problems (he told me "good luck"). If I am given the chance to prove to you that these people can be let back in, I won't let you down. Just give me the chance. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 00:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark should have been making those representations to the community, not just one well-placed person. I'd want to see a comprehensive mea culpa from BA in which he lists all his sockpuppets and publicly renounces his contempt for our policies and values before I'd even consider giving him a chance. Too many intentional disruptions and hurtful personal attacks have come from a site he's significantly responsible for while under his watch. We lost one of our better admins last week due to harassment in real world because some of his friends on his site contacted her employer, and he did not even bother to speak up, much less intervene. He needs to account for that. We need more than your word here. FeloniousMonk 00:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

LB, look, it has started already. See below: "what SlimVirgin is saying is blatantly false and just an attempt to smear me as some kind of vandal." These people don't acknowledge that they have done anything wrong. MSK has posted on WR that I pretend to be a Jew on Wikipedia because I am really a neo-Nazi trying to compile accurate lists of Jews to attack, or something (forgive me if I have it slightly wrong, but it's hard to paraphrase craziness). She has referred to that conspiracy theory very recently, so this isn't old news. How can you let someone like back onto Wikipedia? If she had been a great editor, and you were asking me to overlook eccentricity, then maybe I'd consider it. But she was never a good editor either, so how does this benefit Wikipedia or any of its editors? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the impression among its users that IRC is a substitute for Wikipedia community involvement. One IRC user apologizing to another IRC user has nothing to do with Wikipedia. If a user wants to make amends, let him or her do it in Wikipedia space, or else let us not count it (but by the same logic, let's also not count off-site comments at WR against them). -lethe ^{talk +} 01:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I saw: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Blu_Aardvark.27s_unblocking (at the bottom)

To anyone reading this can you please point out this, because what SlimVirgin is saying is blatantly false and just an attempt to smear me as some kind of vandal (when I am definitely not):

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mistress_Selina_Kyle?oldid=47363392#A_list_of_some_positive_contributions:
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mistress_Selina_Kyle?namespace=0

Also remind her that Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks/Extension is NOT policy and likely never will be, and even if it was you can't attack me just for helping run a forum where some other people have said nasty things - I myself usually are the voice of reason there...

(Log posted with permission requested and accepted from Linuxbeak)

<Linuxbeak> Well, it's really not that big of a deal.
<Linuxbeak> I just find it kind of immature
<rabbit2> the only real way to control what people say is to ban them or start censoring stuff
<rabbit2> people act as tho just cos its on my forum its my opinion
<rabbit2> not true, anyones allowed to post there
<rabbit2> its just the people that post most make the forum basically, without the people it would just be me and an empty website o-o
<Linuxbeak> Well, sure. I don't think that you necessarily hold any of those opinions except the ones that you post

<rabbit2> --
<rabbit2> Amorrow
<rabbit2> I've been recieving a number of complaints about the apparent sexist tone of many of your posts. Now, it is not my desire to censor anyone, regardless of how distasteful I may find their beliefs or opinions to be, but I would like to ask you to consider toning it down a bit.
<rabbit2> If we continue to recieve complaints of this nature, I may have to take other action, such as requiring you to post into a moderated queue. I really don't want to do this, so please try and watch what you post.
<rabbit2> Thank you,
<rabbit2> Blu Aardvark
<rabbit2> --
<rabbit2> just so you know
<rabbit2> we are trying to clean up things, it's just hard -.-

• Linuxbeak nods

--Mistress Selina Kyle ^{(Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉)} 23:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Reposted from User talk:Mistress Selina Kyle. Kotepho 00:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark can explain this comment on WR. Tue 23rd May 2006, 8:39pm “Wanna have some fun, Amorrow? Since AnnH (MusicalLinguist) is having so much fun tracking, reverting, and blocking your edits, throw a wrench in the works. Hit recentchanges for a bit and revert a little vandalism. See if your good friend Ann reverts you because you are banned, or has the common sense that some edits, even those of "banned" users, do have merit after all.”[30] --FloNight ^talk 00:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark and Mistress Selina Kyle: unblocking/contd

I've moved the following so the discussion isn't split. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone,

I'm just letting people know that I'm going to try doing what I did with User:JarlaxleArtemis and User:MARMOT with two other users: User:Mistress Selina Kyle and User:Blu Aardvark. I have talked to both in length, and I believe that we can let them back in without too much fuss. They have agreed to seek help via mentorship in case of trouble, and I hope that some good can come out of this. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 22:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no opposition to this provided that the mentorship is handled appropriately. On the subject, are there any conditions of the unblock other than the mentorship? Ral315 (talk) 22:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, I have had experience with both and both (especially Blu Aardvark) have a good prospect of rehabilitation. Strike that, I support the unblocking and mentorship for Blu only. --bainer (talk) 23:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This is now being discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Blu Aardvark's unblocking. -Will Beback 23:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to help mentorship one of them. Thanks Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 23:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest. Please talk to me via user talk, and we'll set you up. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 23:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

No, Linuxbeak, please go to WP:AN/I and discuss this in full before you take any further action. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I’m totally flabbergasted that this is even being considered. --FloNight ^talk 23:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Me too. It shows contempt for their victims. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've reinstated Blu Aardvark's block until more information is provided and some consensus here is reached. This has been way too backroom for such a disrutive editor as Blu Aardvark. FeloniousMonk 23:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe this...why are we spending a second of anyone's time considering this. His track record is one of flipping out and heading south if things don't go his way. We don't owe him anymore chances, he has no inherent right to edit here and we've already wasted more than enough time on him. For us to even consider this there would need to be a lot more discussion and evidence that he's somehow changed his attitude, something that is not evident here or on WR... Rx StrangeLove 00:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Both these unblocks have been okayed by Jimbo. Ashibaka tock 00:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there a link for this? And when you say okayed do you mean not objected to, or positively supported? --pgk^(talk) 00:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

To quote Linuxbeak above I would also like to make note that I informed Jimbo of this decision, to which he did not have any problems (he told me "good luck"). Kotepho 00:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If Jimbo wants to approve the unblock, he'll tell us that himself. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a bad, bad idea, and we're going to regret it soon enough. Do you guys even remember what Blu Aardvark did? I can't think of many things to do that would've made it worse. He was using a combination of personal attacks, sockpuppetry, disruption, and oh yeah, anti-semitism. Why do we think that every user can be rehabilitated? Even assuming they can, why should we? It takes a lot of work and we're writing an encyclopedia here, not running a rehabilitation clinic. --Cyde↔Weys 00:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

This all strikes me as very weird, and I have a few questions. Does anyone have valid statistics on how much time (how many edits?) admins spend actually creating encyclopedic content versus other activities? I get the impression (maybe in error) that vandal fighting has replaced encyclopedia creation as the number one task of admins. Is Wikipedia becoming one third encyclopedia making, one third free blog, one third free first person shooter game ("blocked a vandal; woohoo"). Does letting loose the caged fox make the fox hunt fun? Are people let back in because of it is good for building the encyclopedia or other reasons? Can't banned people make suggestions for improvements via e-mail to concerned persons who then implement them? What's the rush? Will waiting six months be a problem? Why? WAS 4.250 00:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I can definitely testify to the fact that my encyclopedia writing has gone down since becoming an admin. A sad state of affairs. -lethe ^{talk +} 01:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Acitive admins who are active as admins do spend most of thier time dealing with vandalism or copyvios.Geni 00:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is an example of what they have posted about me, except I'm censoring the last word. When I last checked, it was still there, even though other posters have objected. Both Blu Aardvark and MSK are staff there and are responsible for removing this kind of thing:

"SV is a plane jane used up ho that can't earn even 1 euro for a blowjob so she gets on wikipedia where she can ban and harass others just to get wet and rub her scabby c***" [31]

Linuxbeak, is this what you regard as fair comment, or a responsible way to run a discussion board? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

How (s)he runs h(er/is) board is her buisness, if that is her board. Our concern, the concern of editors and administrators alike, is Wikipedia. Not if a gal has a Adam's Apple, not if the guy's a Stormfront donator. The question we must be asking ourselves is, "Will allowing Selina to return harm the project?" Not even the community, although this is something Selina will hopefully be better with, but the project. Her mainspace edits don't reflect vandalism or a intent to disrupt, she has clearly made amens and is intending to reform, and my opinion is to let her. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 01:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, now you're admitting they're the same editors? No more red herrings about them being other people with the same name? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you point us to something that backs this up: she has clearly made amens and is intending to reform Rx StrangeLove 01:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we can do a one strike, they are gone indef again rule? Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

We've done that already. I recall that MSK had several last chances. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Or this from MSK just tonight: "I don't think SlimVirgin really is a Jew at all. really.." Does that sound like someone we want to give even more chances to?? [32] Rx StrangeLove 01:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Mistress Selina Kyle's conspiracy theory about me is that I'm pretending to be a Jew on Wikipedia, but I'm really a neo-Nazi secretly compiling lists of Jews for Stormfront members to attack. Her evidence for this, and the reason I first came to her attention on WP, is that I defended some Muslim editors against their attacks. I'm not kidding. If we're going to unblock her, let's also unblock Cheesedreams, Lir, and Alberuni. Linuxbeak can open a mentoring school and do it in bulk for reduced rates. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark can explain this comment on WR. Tue 23rd May 2006, 8:39pm “Wanna have some fun, Amorrow? Since AnnH (MusicalLinguist) is having so much fun tracking, reverting, and blocking your edits, throw a wrench in the works. Hit recentchanges for a bit and revert a little vandalism. See if your good friend Ann reverts you because you are banned, or has the common sense that some edits, even those of "banned" users, do have merit after all.”[33] --FloNight ^talk 00:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark was a ok editor and Im willing to let him back with a apology and MSK I may be willing to give one last chance, it's not completely her fault about all those comments was made in the review site. I talked to MSK in IRC and she's willing to ban amorrow, Im not sure about the others though. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

This unblocking is outrageous. These are the creators of WR, who could easily have used their power to end the harassment of Katefan0, and all of the misongynistic etc. conversations on that board, yet they instead at best did nothing, and often egged the main miscreants on. I see no hint that they are in way reformed, nor deserving of being unblocked; nor do I see any sign that there is a consensus on Wikipedia for this unblocking. Let them clean up Wikipedia Review first, and undo the damage done to Katefan0; then there will be grounds for unblocking. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Linuxbeak is a trusted member of the community and has been successful in reacclimating people to Wikipedia before. Maybe it won't work, but accounts can always be re-blocked if it doesn't. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 01:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I do trust Linuxbeak. But I distrust Blu Aardvark even more. We shouldn't be wasting our time trying to rehabilitate users who were banned for some pretty serious infractions (Blu Aardvark, for instance, made over a dozen sockpuppets and went on an unmitigated spree of vandalism, in addition to all of the anti-semitic remarks). We're an encyclopedia, not a rehabilitation clinic. When someone has proven that their presence is not in the best interest of writing the encyclopedia they need to be gotten rid of, not given endless chances to reform themselves, in the mean time pissing off lots of productive users (who may end up leaving) and wasting lots of time. --Cyde↔Weys 01:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If this unblocking of rightfully blocked users continues, we as Wikipedians are going to have to ask ourselves: who do we value more, banned users or administrators? I know, personally, there's only so much I'm willing to put up with before I decide my efforts just aren't worth it. Blu Aardvark did and said some terrible, unforgivable things. What's next, are we going to give Rgulerdem a third chance? Unblock Willy on Wheels? Administrators are only going to put up with so many returns of banned users before we just decide ... eh ... what is up with this place that it values banned users more than us? Why bother? --Cyde↔Weys 01:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Especially since it's only a few days when the whole Katefan0 incident occured. Garion96 ^(talk) 01:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It says above that, in fact, previous mentoring by Linuxbeak did not work out. Let Blu Aardvark and MSK remove all the personal attacks and defamation from WR; then they can ask to have their accounts here reinstated. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to comment on this, I've seen some people in this thread saying, "Ohh, their off-wiki actions aren't relevant ... you can't even prove it was them." To that I say: bullshit. Our editors and administrators have received some pretty bad harrassment as a result of things that "only" happened on Wikipedia Review. That negatively affects the writing of the encyclopedia, and it is relevant as a consideration in deciding whether or not these banned users should be allowed to return. --Cyde↔Weys 01:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You started by stating the suppositions of others, followed by calling it "bullshit", but then failed to explain WHY it was bullshit. Anyone can go to any message board, can register under Wikipedia editor's names, and can say all manner of things. (Not that I think that's the case here, but it DOES set a bad precedent.) Nevertheless, I think MSK is not as deliberately toxic to Wikipedia as Blu Aardvark. MSK deserves another chance, but Blu Aardvark should never, ever be allowed anywhere near Wikipedia ever again, IMHO. wikipediatrix 01:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aardvark and MSK are the same people here as on Wikipedia Review. Period. End of story. --Cyde↔Weys 01:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, I don't share your simplistic view of the matter. wikipediatrix 02:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it's too simple to say that they are who they are, so it must be more complex. There's actually a huge global conspiracy of dozens of different people who are all logging in in sequence and impersonating these two users. That must be it. --Cyde↔Weys 05:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's out of his control to remove all of those comments, so that might be a little steep as a request, to make him go from being a two-bit troll to a patron saint.-- The ikiroid  01:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You're saying one has to be a patron saint not to call people c***s, not to publicize efforts to lose people their jobs, not to post private photographs, not to discuss people's appearances, not to be involved in reporting people to the police? No, you need to be a stable, decent human being who understands the difference between right and wrong. They are both staff. They run the website. MSK founded it. They could prevent that material from being posted if they wanted to. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you prove that MSK founded "Wikipedia Review"?? I'm pretty sure that it was founded by someone named "Igor" (who may or may not be a pseudonym of Daniel Brandt). wikipediatrix 02:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

MSK just banned amorrow from wikipedia review Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Now how about Daniel Brandt, the guy who runs that despicable Hivemind stalker website? --Cyde↔Weys 01:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't pretend to ourselves (or some people shouldn't pretend to themselves) that these two editors are suddenly transformed into good company by banning a couple of other trolls or clearing a few posts from a board. That doesn't change the fact that both have been a time, resource and emotion and editor sink for a long time, particularly MSK, and that they have a nearly-uncontrollable disposition to making such comments and taking such actions in the first place. There is often the possibility of rehabilitating poor editors: but some people, like people in jail for life without parole, are simply unfixable, and unwanted. They tried editing here, couldn't cut it, many of our finest people tried to help them, and couldn't do it, because they simply didn't want to be helped. Wikipedia is not therapy, is not a rehabilitation clinic, is not infinitely forgiving, does not need every last one of their carefully-placed 'good' edits, and is not a suicide pact. To allow either of these users back without an extensive period of near-sainthood, would require Wikipedia to be all those things at once. -Splash^talk 02:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, it doesn't make sense to grant editing privileges back in response to administrative actions on another site which we have no control over. What would happen if, a week from now, MSK unblocked AMorrow, or if he started editing from another account name and that one wasn't blocked? Would we reinstate MSK's block here? It just doesn't seem workable to me. Blocking users on external sites can't be a condition for editing privileges here: only the user's own actions can be. And I haven't seen anything from these two editors that leads me to believe they're suddenly magically reformed. --Cyde↔Weys 02:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favour, in principle, of letting sane banned users back onto the site. Someone like amorrow is utterly unwelcome and must never be allowed back here; but those with some semblance of sanity (Selina, Blu Aardvark, Lir, perhaps) are theoretically capable of being good users. The question is, are they willing to do so? Selina wasn't so bad, before she was blocked, that I'd be unwilling to countenance her return. Blu Aardvark ... eee ... I'll leave that question to the ones he was antagonising. However, I suspect they aren't quite ready to be civil and behave themselves here. Selina's note, pasted above, is I think a good example of what we can expect from her and BA: nonsensical abuse and a complete unwillingness to work with us. I'd like to see some evidence that they won't behave as they have done on Wikipedia Review before they're allowed to return. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 02:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking over the history - neither of these users was banned by the ArbCom, Jimbo, or other 'binding' resolution. They were indefinitely blocked by individual admins and nobody chose to dispute that... until now. The only basis in blocking policy for an indefinite block without action by some sort of official party is the 'community ban'... which to date has meant that their actions were so bad that no admin is willing to unblock them. Since an admin is willing to unblock these two a community ban is not in place and reblocking them is inappropriate wheel-warring. If you want these people gone the proper course is appeal to the ArbCom or Jimbo.

As to the actual individuals - I don't know much about Blu Aardvark so I won't comment. MSK was always a handful... we first met when I reverted a picture she added to the Jimmy Wales page, not of Jimbo, and she made disparaging remarks about my appearance... naturally we became fast friends. :] However, she also made some useful contributions and received some... questionable treatment from others. On this page, in the comments above, several admins have clearly violated civility and personal attack standards - as some did prior to her banishment. It becomes difficult to blame users for bad behaviour when those of us who are supposed to represent the best sometimes fall well short of the goal. Few people respond well to any sort of provocation... and MSK definitely isn't one of them. Do I expect all sunshine and flowers if she is let back? No... but if that were the standard there are some admins who'd be perma-banned too. I suspect that if MSK were given one 'free' incivil remark / personal attack / rule bending for every one directed at her she could never be blocked again... and that's a problem. We're not supposed to be harassing people to the point that they set up anti-Wiki sites. It may be 'easier' to kick 'problem' users around, but it is still wrong and we all end up paying for it. --CBDunkerson 03:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think CBDunkerson makes a very good point. This was a community ban which appears to no longer have community support. Lets attempt some good faith here, especially in Linuxbeak's direction -- he has indicated that this is for mentorship, not to set people loose. If there are any issues that arise, there will be eyes on the situation that can resolve those issues rather quickly. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 03:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What happens on WikipediaReview stays on WikipediaReview. We can't verify any comments made there, we can't verify any status made there. For all we know, Daniel Brandt is Jimbo using a proxy, because there is no way to verify evidence from WikipediaReview, or for that matter from off-wiki in general. It is obscene that we ask for censorship of a legitimate discussion forum that those in question cannot be verified to have control of. MSK and BluAardvark have both clearly made amends to the satisication of Linuxbeak, a bureaucrat... Jimbo can pretty easily be assumed to support it, as Linuxbeak hasn't been stripped of his bureaucratship for lying about Jimbo's stance on this issue... Let's give it a go. Worse case scenario, it does not take two minutes to revert all edits made and reblock. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 03:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You're a contributor too, Avillia, and it isn't a legitimate discussion forum. It's a cesspit. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it's a tasty cesspit. Cocktail weenies and delectable sandwiches scattered about it, left like gingerbread crumbs for the unsuspecting child. I think. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 03:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

"What happens on WikipediaReview stays on WikipediaReview." Wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. What happens on WikipediaReview spills over on Wikipedia and into real life all the time. Just ask Katefan0. Oh wait, you can't, because she's left... because of what happened on WikipediaReview. FeloniousMonk 03:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Because of Brandt, damn it! It was DANIEL LESLIE BRANDT who did that to Katefan0. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 03:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It is Mistress Selina Kyle and Blue Aardvark who are publicizing it, and without that public element, Brandt almost certainly wouldn't do it, because it's the publicity he craves. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It may be Brandt who placed the calls and harassed her employer, but it was Mistress Selina Kyle and Blue Aardvark who provided Brandt the message board to publish her personal details and left them up for all the world to see. I mean really, if the culpability in that relationship not clear to anyone, then they have no business offering amnesty. FeloniousMonk 04:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No, what happens on WR doesn't stay on WR...there are real world consequences and real consequences here. What's obscene is what happened to Katefan01 and doubly obscene that two accomplices to what happened to Katefan01 are being defended here. I'm sickened by this. Rx StrangeLove 03:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am also sickened by it. Anyone who isn't has no place on Wikipedia, in my view. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What happens on WikipediaReview stays on WikipediaReview. I must say that the pure sophistry of this statement is mind-boggling: WikipediaReview isn't some J. Random BulletinBoard that happens to have some Wikipedia editors on it, its very reason for existence is Wikipedia, the alleged monitoring (snort) of what goes on here. And their track record (institutionally and of its members) is, to put it mildly, sufficiently disgusting to put them beyond granting them the slightest sliver of the benefit of the doubt. MSK and Blu Aardvark can't edit on Wikipedia? Too bad, so sad, actions have consequences. --Calton | Talk 04:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What happens on WikipediaReview most definitely does not stay on WikipediaReview. I've had complete strangers contact me, offwiki, in a highly unpleasant manner, who could only possibly have "discovered" me through Wikipedia Review. My sins, apparantly, are that I am a Wikipedia administrator and a woman (horrors!) who took a strong stand against a disruptive user. Said disruptive user, after being blocked here, was welcomed with open arms at Wikipedia Review and allowed to spread toxic comments and lies to his heart's content. Nobody questioned any of his statements there: as long as he was virulently opposed to Wikipedia, he was embraced, and I was demonized. I am a person of some public stature in my country, and I make my living on my reputation. People who run a Google search on my real name, seeking professional credentials, will now find toxic comments and lies spread about me, under my real name, at various random-seeming websites across the web, solely because of the vengance of a disgruntled banned user. This is real world damage, and Wikipedia Review had a hand in it. If we block people for legal threats because legal threats deter people from editing and getting involved in Wikipedia, we should block people for other forms of real, offwiki damage. I do not stand for the opinion that the right to edit Wikipedia is an inalienable human right. --woggly 07:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Real world damage should be met by real world law suit. WAS 4.250 12:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to weigh in on this one. It seems MSK has given a negative impression on the Wikipedia community, however, I feel some people are not looking at both sides of the story. To begin with here, I don't recall there ever being an RFAr or a mentorship against MSK, it just started with Sean Black's indef block of her stating she was a "troll, virtually no positive contribs, etc. etc." Not to pick on Sean here, but that is just not true (as he is probably aware of at this point), and if I remember correctly his block went through a series of unblockings/re-lenghthenings/so on and so forth. I feel it could have been handled differently, as I'm sure others do too. I would like to direct your attention to [34]. If this helps at all, it proves that MSK has made some positve contributions, and can show friendliness at times. Also to note MSK does have AS although the general agreement between us is that AS is to not interfere with editing Wikipedia. Those points being said, I'm afraid it's too late for a mentorship to be done on this user. MSK is unique in that she tends to be a bit more bold than usual when it comes to editing which is an issue. I would also ask ALL admins to remain civil as best you can as I have sat behind and watched the aforementioned admins (I won't name names) try to deal with her, and I feel the civily line was crossed too many times. As for WR; as it relates directly to Wikipedia it does affect us. I would recommend further talks with MSK about your concerns and I'm sure she'll comply if at all she wants back in on Wikipedia. --Pilot|guy 13:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's nice to see that so many think Linux is a "trustworthy" editor and I note that I have no reason to believe otherwise. It's also nice to see that he has decided to set himself up as Mother Teresa, the Messiah or Betty Ford or whatever holy or not so holy redeemer one can think of. If such a mission lights his internal spirit-fire then, soibeit. But as Cyde noted -- this is an encyclopedia not a rehab clinic.

In any case, Linux showed himself to have one significant flaw: He did not exhibit the level of judgment that is expected from Wikipedia's administrators, in fact he appears to have given little though to the past actions of Blu or MSK and absolutely zero thought to how unblocking them would effect the community as a whole.

Quite frankly I'm sickened by this turn of events. This just raises far too many questions -- but I'll save them. For now. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary break for sanity's sake

BARF...that's how sick this crap makes me...Wikipedia review...what a farce...I tried to register but I assume they didn't like my Yahoo mailing address...the only reason I wanted to register was to tell a few folks there to kiss my ass. The community decided just recently to block these two folks and, well, I guess they are really here now to make Wikipedia better...har-de-har-har.--MONGO 04:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I’m not a fool. I’m not going to volunteer for an organization that welcomes people that are harassing me for protecting the organization. FloNight ^talk 04:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Me neither. I've had enough. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe the organization does not welcome these people; for my part, personally, I extend them no welcome whatsoever. I believe, as of this writing, both have been reblocked. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 05:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between allowing to edit and welcoming.Geni 00:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

That was my point. Wikipedia review has several key players that were banned and all for good reasons...did someone get the impression that I am in favor of the unblocking of ardvark and mistress, as I am most definitely not.--MONGO 05:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to ditto FloNight here ... Wikipedia needs to choose which to value more: its contributors or banned users. We're not some damn experiment in rehabilitation, we're an encyclopedia. Giving rightfully banned editors unlimited chances to "rehabilitate" is just causing lots of disruption. Has rehabilitation ever actually worked? Let's look at some previous cases ... MARMOT, Jaraxle, Shultz ... this is not a good track record. It's not worth losing actually valuable contributors due to harrassment from returning indefinitely banned users. --Cyde↔Weys 04:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cyde. The time and effort that this mediation will take could be more productively spent welcoming and grooming new editors who won't spend all of their time pissing over the encyclopedia. Nandesuka 05:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

FloNight has this exactly right. I cannot understand why we are saying that enabling the treatment that Katefan0 and Musical Linguist have gotten is acceptable, and that people who do so are welcome here. Jkelly 05:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. Credible, good faith volunteers here give significantly of their time and expertise, often to their detriment, to the project. And it is a sunk cost, they will never get it back. They should know that their efforts are appreciated and will not be squandered on experiments at resocializing and rehabilitation of known troublemakers who hold the community's values in contempt. FeloniousMonk 05:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep. This whole debate is a microcosm of a much wider debate on justice and crime. Why do criminals get punished? To avenge their crimes? To discourage others from committing the same crime? To rehabilitate them? To protect the community from them? How should we balance the rights and welfare of the criminal against the rights and welfare of the victim? How should we determine that a criminal has been punished enough? People have been grappling with these questions for thousands of years. The probability of Wikipedia resolving them here is zero. We must abandon this arrogant quest to be the perfect rehabilitative justice system, and just do whatever will best get the encyclopaedia written. All things considered, it seems to me mind-numbingly obvious that the encyclopaedia will be better off if these people remain blocked. Snottygobble 06:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I added another section head above, to make editing a little more sane. Hope nobody minds. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is not therapy. I wonder if Jimbo's "good luck" wasn't more like "be it on your own head". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Just piling on the bandwagon: Wikipedia is not a clinic for rehabilitating social incompetants. I'm sure an organization like Habitat for Humanity would not let someone continue to volunteer if they ignored instructions and were rude to other workers. Why should we be different? Isomorphic 05:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• Point of information, please. Did Jimbo actually approve of, grant permission, or in any way give special authority for linuxbeak to unilaterally and silently overturn a community ban? Technically, linuxbeak is within his rights, I think, but socially, what an astoundingly maladroit move. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Every admin has the authority to overturn a community ban. Community bans only last until an objection is raised, and LB objected. I don't have any strong opinion on this one (and I try to keep my head down on this sort of thing anyway), but LB didn't do anything wrong on a purely procedural level. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'm just a newbie admin but I oppose bringing back MSK or BA, mentorship or no, until they demonstrate they ARE the same people here and there (Avilla, stop with the red herrings, there are ways to prove someone the same in both places) and then repudiate what they've done on WR and explicitly and publicly apologise. I abhor wheel warring but absent an explicit order from Jimbo that came out and said exactly what the circumstances of their return was, I would reblock them both. Yes I trust linuxbeak but I think he's been bamboozled. This whole thing of what happens in one place doesn't affect another place has come up in other communities and it can destroy them. Too many valuable contributors have been damaged by WR for me to want any part of users that have any standing there. ++Lar: t/c 06:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Linuxbeak was acting entirely in good faith. His optimistic belief in the potential of MSK and Blu Aardvark to be positive contributors to Wikipedia is impressive. But, as we've seen here today/tonight, the cost of bringing them back is just too high. They've thoroughly burned their bridges. They are unwelcome in this project. FreplySpang 06:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

FreplySrang has a point here- I don't think these are wise trade-offs. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 06:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The sickening irony would be that two editors, banned for posting personal attacks on wikipedia were allowed to return; and Katefan0, who embodied what a wikipedian could and should be, has been plucked from our midst. Let's stick a pin in this, and move on. The bans should remain in place. Mytwocents 06:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not dispute the good faith of Linuxbeak. What I dispute is the wisdom of his action. While no one individual editor can make or break this project, and thank goodness for that, the number of absolutely stellar editors who have withdrawn, or are thinking about it, is high. FloNight, SlimVirgin, KateFan0, Phaedriel... these are some of our very best. The cost is too high. Keep them banned. Whether there is cause to seek legal action against WR or whether that is a good idea is a different matter, but editing here is a privilege, not a right. This community has no need of the contributions of disruptive editors who agitate, foment trouble and trash good editors on other sites. As I said above, I have seen this before in other communities. ++Lar: t/c 16:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Before anyone gets all misty-eyed about Mistress Selina Kyle

• User:Tony_Sidaway/Blocks on Mistress Selina Kyle

She was at it before her third day and never quit. --Tony Sidaway 03:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a question ... what even sparked this latest round of attempted rehabilitation? Was Linuxbeak approached by these two? Or did Linuxbeak do it upon his own initiative? If it was the former, I would be incredibly suspicious ... Cyde↔Weys 06:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The latter, I understand. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 07:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd bet the opposite. Too much like a bad 70's movie with pix of the victim and farm animals. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Linuxbeak claims he did the approaching, though his wording is extremely vague. See his explanation much much earlier in this thread

"Yes, absolutely. I talked to Blu Aardvark on IRC this afternoon. I approached him, saying that I know that there are problems with Wikipedia, and I'd like to help find solutions, etc. He and I had a very civil and intellegent conversation, and the subject of him being blocked came up. I mentioned that we have a mentorship process to handle things such as this." -Linuxbeak

I'd be much more comfortable with this whole thing if it had taken place on Wikipedia instead of IRC, so that we could see exactly what the candidates for unblocking have said. It does affect all of us, after all. -lethe ^{talk +} 07:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Just as a response to what Blu Aardvark said on IRC ... I think Linuxbeak has been misled. Yeah, Blu Aardvark is capable of being civil in short doses. Once he gets into protracted discussions he just reverts to his same-old, same-old, though. I've interacted with Blu Aardvark before ... it started off civil and it ended with him getting kicked from #wikipedia after various anti-semitic remarks. Just because he says a few sentences that aren't incivil doesn't mean that he has rehabilitated. To stretch an analogy a bit ... we don't let murderers off scot-free just for saying they're sorry. --Cyde↔Weys 07:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I would agree with that. Furthermore, I note that it is not at all clear to me that this one has even done as much as say he was sorry. -lethe ^{talk +} 07:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel the need to respond to this falsehood. I was never kicked from #wikipedia after making anti-semitic remarks. I do not even recall ever intereacting with you on IRC. Your repeats attempts to smear me as an anti-semite are quite offensive, blatantly false, and I would request an apology. --72.160.81.89 07:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blu Aarvark, why on earth would we let you back in, if you can still edit here? I note you made a comment at wikireview that you still log in to do some editing, but would prefer to use your old account. But you can create an account anytime you wish obviously.--MONGO 08:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo approving.

Linuxbeak is not only a administrator, but a bureaucrat. He is one of the most trusted members of Wikipedia, and I hold extreme doubt that he would lie about this endorsement for these two and risk his sysop status in the process. If nothing else, let's WP:AGF for this situation and assume that he has Jimbo's blessing until otherwise noted. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 07:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

So because he has a title we're all supposed to bow to his wisdom? Doubtful. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I trust Linuxbeak. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with him. And I don't care if he has Jimbo's blessing or not; if he does, it may be a point in MSK and BA's favour, but is certainly not the end of any discussion. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 07:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 19:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyone else find it kind of ironic that Avillia is commenting on this issue? Avillia, of course, is another user who did some pretty bad things, was indefinitely blocked, and was then given a second chance. --Cyde↔Weys 07:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No, not at all. The obvious rejoinder would be: he should know. Why shouldn't someone like Avillia be arguing for giving others a second chance? fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 07:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Where did Jimbo approve of this by the way? All I see above is that he told Linuxbeak "good luck". While Jimbo doesn't usually speak with sarcasm, that phrase can be interpreted several ways. --bainer (talk) 07:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Trust bureaucrts to do bureaucrat things. Promote admins, rename users. When I look at RFB I don't support them to give blanket power just because they are "trusted". --pgk^(talk) 09:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Can someone let me know on my talk page when this blows over? I'm dewatchlisting AN/I so I don't get dragged into this soul-consuming morass. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I know little of this case and make no comment on it. However I note that some users against Linuxbeak's unblock are the same users who have treated me rudely, poorly and with their versions of wikijustice.Mccready 09:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure you'd fit quite well on Wikipedia review. El_C 09:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

El_C, snide remarks to Mccready are not going to help the situation. We want him to stay on Wikipedia and be a good editor. Please do not taunt him. FloNight ^talk 15:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Now it looks like SlimVirgin and FloNight are leaving wikipedia because of this. I feel so guilty Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 16:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not your fault, Aranda. --Pilot|guy 16:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not party to any discussion above, contained in diffirent sub-sections. But, the discussion, comments are observations appear really amazing to me - yes, an amazing way to build the sum total of human knowledge. I am sorry that I could not refrain myself from opening my mind and heart. Respectful regards to all! --Bhadani 17:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me get this straight, a couple of banned editors who devote large segments of their time to another website created to attack Wikipedia and Wikipedians are being unilaterally unbanned by one admin against community consensus? What on earth for? How is this a positive move for the project, particularly since the net result appears to be the driving away of long-time editors who have greatly contributed to WP? --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 19:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone has already said it, because this conversation is a confusing mess, but I believe SlimVirgin (talk · contribs) left wikipedia. She made her last edit here, cleared and protected her userpage, and has done nothing since.-- The ikiroid  19:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

FloNight (talk · contribs) and Phaedriel (talk · contribs) have done the same. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 19:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Phaedriel left before the unblocking of Aardvark and Mistress...right after Katefan0 left and she saw that those toilet plungers at WR started harping in on her.--MONGO 23:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a big loss for en.wikipedia. Garion96 ^(talk) 19:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, Linuxbeak, I hope you're satisfied. SlimVirgin has left? Please, please, please discuss such things with the community before taking such unilateral action in future. Mentorship has failed repeatedly. Mike Garcia is repeatedly blocked for 3RR violations, and I begin to wonder if he isn't Johnny Vandal (after all, who else has such a hatred of Hephaestos?) And whoever tries to claim that what happens on Wikipedia Review stays on Wikipedia Review needs to talk to Phil Sandifer. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL. Additionally, he did post on Central AN and received support prior. See the moved segment above. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 20:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, really? From the logs, he announced it at 22:03, having unblocked at 21:59. So, hooey. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa whoa. Time out. "Wow, Linuxbeak, I hope you're satisfied." That hurts, Zoe. Are you trying to place SlimVirgin's leaving on me? It's not like I go to my secret underground lair with a armful of plans marked "How to screw people over". For your information this was supposed to be a way for us to eliminate enemies by making friends. I notice that at least one other person has blamed SlimVirgin's dramatic departure on me and has called for me to apologize. Uh, no. I'm not going to apologize for attempting to extend an olive branch, mend broken bridges and assume good faith, and I'm not going to apologize for SlimVirgin's departure because she's the one who left in a huff instead of sticking around and participating in further debate. Did I do something out of process? I might have, but I honestly don't know. Some say I have, some say I haven't. If I have, then please accept my sincere and humble apologies for not following established process. However, if you're going to blame SlimVirgin's actions on my attempt to do something that I saw as helpful and supportive, forget it. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 23:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Linuxbeak, do you understand that your unblocking gives the message that it is okay to torment and abuse editors? Do you understand that your unblocking makes it clear that no editors here can feel at all supported when personally attacked? Jkelly 23:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Although I would not have unblocked those two we cannot blame Linuxbeak for anyone's actions but his own. Slimvirgin is a grownup. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that anything about my statement, or even Zoe's, infantalises any of the editors who have departed over this. Linuxbeak has made it clear that an editor here does not have any reasonable expectation that abusive editors who enable stalking and harassment are unwelcome. Not discussing the matter beforehand with those editors who have been the target of months worth of harassment is disrespectful. I agree with FloNight; that makes it a perfectly reasonable decision to not want to invest further in the project. The unblocking is not contextless. Jkelly 23:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned that Linuxbeak does not seem to understand the process for unblocking blocked users, as he says he doesn't know if he acted out of process. I'm not sure which process he thought he was using. -Will Beback 23:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Some people seem to think that I violated process by unblocking someone without discussing it first. Well, did I violate process? Tell me what I did wrong. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 23:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You didn't violate process. You were perfectly within your rights, technically, to do what you did. What you did was violate the community; I doubt it was your intent, but the effect was an act of contempt for the community. Why couldn't you have at least talked first with the people who discussed and agreed with the bans? Do you have so little respect for their ability to make intelligent, informed decisions? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

LB, the blocking policy clearly requires that any admin fully discuss an unblock with the original blocking admin (or at AN/I, if appropriate) prior to unblocking anyone. Unless no one mentioned it, it appears that you violated that blocking policy. -Will Beback 00:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but i do not agree that it is perfectly reasonable. Linuxbeak's actions have been widely condemned by the community. To leave because of the actions of one admin who does not have the support of the rest of the community is silly. Linuxbeak does not speak for me or you or anyone else for that matter. If people leave because one person does something they do not like, then the are being altogether too fragile. Linuxbeak is not responsible for anyone leaving - they are. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's that simple. In this thread alone, I see support for Linuxbeak's actions from NicolasTurnbull, Ashibaka, Avillia, Ral315, bainer, Jaranda, Jareth, wikipediatrix, CBDunkerson Pilotguy, and A Man in Black, plus the second-hand rumors of support from Jimbo himself. Were I a victim of harrassment from these people, I don't think I'd see wide condemnation here. For the record, I join the voices of those who say this was just a dumb thing to do. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I originally supported Linuxbeak's mentoring because from my personal experience with MSK and Blu, I thought they had a good prospect of rehabilitation. It seems that my personal experience with MSK was nowhere near the full picture, and I withdrew my support for unblocking him/her. I still think that with mentorship, rehabilitation would be possible for Blu. Note that rehabilitation for either user would probably include abandoning WR, or at least disavowing and blocking the worst users. --bainer (talk) 06:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Linuxbeak, I don't doubt you meant well; this can't be the outcome you intended. You hoped to eliminate enemies by making friends. I'm sure you still mean well; What do you hope to accomplish this time, with your "sincere and humble" non-apology? Is it supposed to make it easier for FloNight or SlimVirgin to come back, or to reassure others who are on the fence, or get some part of the encyclopedia written, or what? Sure, you are not solely responsible for their leaving. Others have left recently as well. It's not all on you that the project has trouble retaining good volunteers, and trouble getting rid of jerks. But your actions aggravated both problems, and some here support your actions. That probably won't reassure those who have been victims of harassment. I can't see what blaming SlimVirgin for leaving is supposed to do. You screwed up big time, and you, and a chunk of the community, seem oblivious to it. I would have hoped you would recognize your mistake, and work to correct it. It's unfortunate that you made self-justification a priority, and doubly unfortunate that you chose to blame others. Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Look, I really don't need this. I'm not accepting any responsiblity whatsoever for SlimVirgin's departing from Wikipedia, not even a small bit. Was this incident a catalyst? Yes, it appears so. Was it my fault? No. To answer your post bit by bit:

What do you hope to accomplish this time, with your "sincere and humble" non-apology?

I acknowledge that I might have made a mistake. However, it appears that I didn't do anything out of process. It was an oversight to not talk to people previously involved in a block, but it's not in violation of anything.

Is it supposed to make it easier for FloNight or SlimVirgin to come back, or to reassure others who are on the fence, or get some part of the encyclopedia written, or what?

This is what I say to FloNight and SlimVirgin: I wish both of you well. I hope that we may encounter you sometime in the future in some other setting, and that they should know that they are always welcome to return to Wikipedia should they wish to do so.

Sure, you are not solely responsible for their leaving. Others have left recently as well. It's not all on you that the project has trouble retaining good volunteers, and trouble getting rid of jerks. But your actions aggravated both problems, and some here support your actions. That probably won't reassure those who have been victims of harassment.

As someone who has been harassed in real life for things that have happened on Wikipedia, I understand that it is very stressful. However, I think that my actions are a way for us to reduce this type of problem by addressing the very source of said problem. Eliminate the problem, gain a friend. Get an apology, accept said apology, move on.

I can't see what blaming SlimVirgin for leaving is supposed to do.

I can't see what blaming me for SlimVirgin leaving is supposed to do, either.

You screwed up big time, and you, and a chunk of the community, seem oblivious to it.

That's fine if you think so, because while I might have made some mistakes, including major ones, I don't regret a single thing. It was done in the spirit of diplomacy.

I would have hoped you would recognize your mistake, and work to correct it. It's unfortunate that you made self-justification a priority, and doubly unfortunate that you chose to blame others.

Tell me, what mistake is this that I made? How would I go and correct it? Enlighten me, and I mean that in all honesty. As far as self-justification being made a priority is concerned, it appears that the truth of the matter is that while I'm willing to admit that I made mistakes, you are making it a priority to prove it otherwise. Also, I don't think I blame anyone for anything in this case except for SlimVirgin being responsible for leaving on her own accord. It's not like I forced her to leave. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 00:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

A. Apologize to SlimVirgin...B. Apologize to Flonight...C. Next time there is a ban seek information from the person or group that did the banning, rather than the person that was banned. If folks do the crime, they should do the time...numerous (not all) editors at WR are just there to vent about how woeful it is that this mean nasty cabal banned them, and to post personal information like a bunch sick stalkers.--MONGO 00:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

A. No. Not my fault that she decided to leave. B. No. Not my fault Flonight decided to leave. C. Sure, I'll do that next time. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 00:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, gloves off...your selfish conceptualization...that you and only you could save the day for two banned users was a flagrant smack in the face to a number of people that banned these two...I see folks at WR claimed to have missed you, that you were "optimistic"...they are posting personal information about editors there and this is condoned at that site...maybe you are in the wrong forum.--MONGO 00:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Is editing an article a slap in the face to a previous editor? Things change.Geni 00:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Truly enlightening comparisons. Wow. El_C 01:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It is one you should consider. Heh if you don't want your block to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.Geni 01:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem, just discuss it with me first, Geni. El_C 01:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop using IRC to circumvent the community, LB, enough is enough. I find it utterly preplexing that you couldn't bother to consult the people targetted by WR, nor the blocking admin/s. El_C 00:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

...uh... a sizable portion of the community is on IRC. I'm not circumventing anything. Again, I made an oversight. I should have notified those people first. It wasn't malicious, however. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 00:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought you apologized for violating process, but now it appears that you don't think you did violate policy. I encourage you to read WP:BLOCK more closely. Also, I agree with Beback; IRC is not wikipedia, no matter how many admins hang out there. -lethe ^{talk +} 01:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Uh, I didn't claim malice, do try to assume good faith, I claimed gross carelessness and what strikes me as a rather unrepentent attitude. And no, IRC offers no records, you have to stop using it this way. El_C 00:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

IRC is not Wikipedia. Treating it like it is leads to problems like this. Please stop thinking that IRC is a substitute for the wiki. It is not. Nandesuka 01:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

LB, the policy requires that you fully discuss the unblock, not simply notify. -Will Beback 01:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I was not going to get involved in this, but Slim's reaction makes it necessary. If for no better reason than keeping Slim here, I strongly favor indef blocks of Selina and Ardvark. Even if Selina and Arvark's only edits were their few productive ones, Slim would still be orders of magnitude more useful to the project. Unblocking these two users is simply ridiculous. Given the very low probability that rehabilitation will work, the cost of unblocking them is way too high. JoshuaZ 20:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

And I didn't notice earlier, but Flo has reacted as Slim has. To even consider losing two of our most useful editors over this nonsense is, I don't know what. I'm appalled and don't have the words to express it. JoshuaZ 20:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget Phaedriel. -lethe ^{talk +} 20:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Phaedriel was mainly because of Brandt Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 20:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the policy mentioned in Wikipedia:Banning policy that if even a single admin is willing to unblock, then there does not exist a community consensus is far too strong a requirement for consensus, as the above discussion shows. I have proposed it be changed here. -lethe ^{talk +} 20:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the blocking policy, note that it also requires an unblocking admin to discuss "the matter thoroughly in advance with the blocking admin, and with other admins on WP:AN/I if appropriate." I think if that had been done in this case there would have been a different outcome. -Will Beback 20:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

For some reason I cannot find that phrase on the policy page. -lethe ^{talk +} 21:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's here: WP:BP#If_you_disagree_with_a_block. Note that's the blocking (as opposed to banning) policy. Petros471 21:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Well, that mitigates somewhat the need to change the policy, instead, let's just ask Linuxbeak to pay a little more attention to policy. Though I still think the offending sentence is potentially harmful. -lethe ^{talk +} 21:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am rather saddened by the display of poor faith here relating to Linuxbeak's mentorship attempt of Blu Aardvark and MSK; especially since I was, technically, the blocking administrator of Blu Aardvark and have voiced my support towards mentorship - although, in actuality, it was Kelly Martin who was the blocking admin. The point is that nobody has yet explained how placing these users on mentorship probation could be dangerous to Wikipedia provided the users' contributions are watched with adequate assiduity. I cannot emphasise this enough, why cannot we just show some compassion and common amicability and assume good faith that these users are willing to reform? Has WP:AGF been neglected in the great stampede that is the onslaught of expediency over consideration? To hell with policy. Policy is not gospel. It is negotiable; Wikipedia is not some rule-ridden mechanism that operates solely according to the rules - which would, after all, be untenable since the block was applied in the first place with only de facto consensus. I don't think Linuxbeak was at fault over the matter; sure, perhaps more talk page messages would have helped... but that is no reason why the idea of rehabilitiating these users is out of the question. The day Wikipedia becomes hell-bent on creating enemies, and refusing reform, is the day the ethos that drives our project rots to a horrible inferno of self-immolation. Cultivating enemies is suicide for any project. I would please implore you, ladies and gentlemen, to look at the bigger picture. This isn't anything to do with compassion: it is to do with the willingless to permit change. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Nichoals, you can't ignore common sense and you can't ignore the harm that WR inflicted on valued editors. I'm saddned that you go on at such length without touching on these crucial point (as you failed to on IRC, before and after you kicked me), instead you appear to centre on rather legalistic arguments regarding AGF. This is saddening. And the double standard you showed Telrias, that was totally out of order. El_C 02:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

ElC: Please inform me of how I am ignoring common sense. The issue over the actions of Wikipedia Review editors is entirely separate to the matter of the behaviour of people on Wikipedia. The point is those editors might as well edit as anon IPs, but would they still be a "harm" to Wikipedia? We cannot go around judging people's actions outside Wikipedia in order to determine whether they are banned or not here - else we would have an endless witch-hunt of people dredging up each other's private lives in a justification of the other party being blocked (as we get on many RfCs/RfArs). People's activities outside of Wikipedia are frankly immaterial. With regard to "the harm that WR inflicted on valued editors" - WR has been trollish, I agree; but not intrinsically harmful, and as I describe above, external activities are not within our purview - and neither, I might point out, is IRC activity. Regarding "legalistic" arguments, it is the exact opposite that I wished to convey - that policies are negotiable - but when it comes to matter such as good faith I see no reason why it should be suspended. The double standard you refer to in relation to Talrias eludes me; please elaborate further. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen how many chances both editors have had in their block logs, MSK most particularly? What suggests that this time things will be different? Editors have spent vast quantities of time and emotional resource on these two trolls before, to absolutely no avail. We certainly can take account of actions outside of Wikipedia when the very existence of those actions is conditioned on what happens on Wikipedia. We shouldn't pretend that WR has nothing at all to do with Wikipedia, or that the actions taken there are in any way unrelated to what happens here. -Splash^talk 02:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel it doesn't really matter whether this time the editors behave differently, provided they're properly watched and hastily rebanned if they renege upon their promise to behave. I see nothing to be lost in so doing, since the moment they misbehave they can be banned again, and any bad contribs rolled back. That's the glorious thing about a wiki: everything, including bans, can be changed on an ad hoc basis. Whether events happen as a consequence of Wikipedia or not really makes no difference - it is still not within our sphere of operation. We could otherwise claim that any action relating to Wikipedia that occurred elsewhere could be scrutinised towards a ban, which is frankly incorrect. Wikipedia Review does, in fact, have nothing to do with Wikipedia - the Foundation doesn't run it, and frankly their own little exercise of mutual trollish stimulation on their message board is their own business. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Nicholas, I simply do not view WR, or #wikipedia for that matter, as existing in a seemingly seperate universe. El_C 02:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What is lost, clearly, is the time and energy that will, we can presume with near certainty, be spent on watching them, and having to justify to certain groups of people why a troll has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-blocked (and that's probably not enough re-s for MSK). What has already been lost is vast quantities of such time and energy (perhaps not yours, thus your enthusiasm to have them around again). If these editors have suddenly become loving little pussycats, they should have absolutely no trouble getting themselves some new usernames. If nothing else, this would demonstrate, quietly and without fanfare, that they are miraculously now dedicated to Wikipedia. -Splash^talk 02:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding SlimVirgin

Recently, I have come under considerable controversy for the temporary unblocking of two previously blocked users: Mistress_Selina_Kyle and Blu_Aardvark. This action was supported by some and strongly opposed by others. I will address this issue first.

While I believe that both users are in fact redeemable and able to be brought back into the community, there are those who strongly disagree with me. Some include some of the people that I put the utmost respect in. Others that I have the utmost respect for have supported my efforts. Still more people that I respect have stated that they are indifferent to the situation but wish me the best of luck.

The recent discussion on the admin noticeboard has been one of typical drama. This was expected, although the specific outcome of said drama wasn't totally expected. I feel that there has been some shifting of focus from the discussions of the blocks to SlimVirgin leaving. Before I continue, I will say this right now: I apologize for acting in such a way as to offend people. I'm sorry that my actions have caused harm, however slight, to people. It wasn't my goal or purpose, but apparently it was an unpleasent side effect.

SlimVirgin decided to leave about 7 hours after I posted my intent. Several people have placed responsibility on me, citing my actions as a direct result. To this, I strongly object. My actions were at the most a catalyst or the straw that broke the camel's back. It might have contributed towards her deciding to leave, but I was in no way responsible for her deciding to leave. As a matter of fact, I take no responsibility for her actual action of leaving. Some people have told me to apologize to her, but while I will do so, I feel that this is a matter of people wanting to place the explosion of the gunpowder magazine on a spark.

SlimVirgin: if my actions contributed to your decision to leave Wikipedia, I apologize that it was so, and please take comfort in the fact that I meant no harm. However, if it be your choice to leave, then I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 15:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you understand what you did that made us so hurt and angry? --FloNight ^talk 15:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure. These people were involved with Wikipedia Review and either directly or indirectly flung attacks at you. I know how it is to be harassed. As a matter of fact, I've been harassed over Wikipedia in real life. It's stressful, annoying and insulting. I've also been harassed online (an example: a ton of those usernames at Special:Listnames). My experience with being harassed is that when people who have harassed you are willing to make amends, it is in everyone's best interest to give them this chance. That was part of my logic, at least. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 16:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Nope! Linuxbeak, just as I thought. You don't understand at all. Drop me an email when you are ready to listen to me and not tell me what you know. FloNight ^talk 19:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Which is why you should have at least consulted with the people who had been harassed. That's where you crossed the line; you were accepting amends that weren't yours to accept. You can forgive those who have trespassed against you; you cannot forgive those who have trespassed against someone else. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I just want to give Linuxbeak my strong support for being brave enough to be forgiving. None of us really knows whether these two users he unbanned can be remediated, but the only way we'll ever find out is by trying. I'm glad he was willing to try, even though nobody else was.

We all know that WP:BLOCK insists that blocking is not a punishment, but let's be honest and admit that it is often used as such. I'm very happy to see that at least one admin is willing to follow the spirit and letter of the rules by giving people a second chance.

I am sorry that User:SlimVirgin and User:FloNight would rather leave than participate in such an effort, but with all due respect, maybe it's all for the the best. Wikipedia needs admins with thicker skins and a willingness not to harbor grudges. If these admins realize that they can't live up to that ideal, then their departure may well be a good thing. Al 17:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Al, I think your comments about SlimVirgin and FloNight are unnecessarily inflammatory and off-topic. I can't see how negative judgements of either administrator could have a constructive effect on this discussion. --Allen 17:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you've misread my comments, then. I'm not saying that Slim and Flo are horrible people who need to go at any cost. I'm not even saying they're generally bad admins.

All I've said is that they were very wrong to take offense at Linuxbeak's efforts to show forgiveness. I would much rather that they understood and accepted what LB is trying to do. It bothers me very much that they have apparently decided they'd rather give up on the project than accept the fact that LB is acting in good faith and deserves a chance.

In short, if you think my comments are inflammatory, then I guess I wasn't clear enough initially, though I think I've clarified things now. As for being off-topic, I'm not sure how you mean that. As far I can tell, I spoke directly on the topic. Al 17:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Whoah, being an admin you need to have a hard skin I think. But to deal with the kind of crap they had thrown at them is something different. Garion96 ^(talk) 17:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree. Al 17:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Still more people that I respect have stated that they are indifferent to the situation ... I'm sorry that my actions have caused harm, however slight, to people. — This hardly reads as an apology to me, it almost reads like a provocation; I'm highly dissapointed. I now no longer have confidence in Linuxbeak's decisionmaking. I think the ArbCom should look into his actions. I suspect opinion among the IRC crowed, which I find disturbingly self-affirming, differs sharply from that of the community at large, to the detriment of the project. El_C 20:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

First up, I don't think we should let the romans practice divide et imperia. Cool down.

I've went and looked at both wikitruth and Daniel Brandts hivemind page. I actually roughly found what I had been suspecting. I'll certainly discuss this with you, but offwiki. Kim Bruning 21:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

There's a time to be cool, and there is a time to be blunt. And no off-wiki discussions with moi until further notice, sorry. El_C 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If there is support for the idea, I'll be filing an RfAr over Linuxbeak's actions and the events which ensued. What do editors not actively involved in IRC think? El_C 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You can't possibly be thinking an RFAr will improve this situation. --Pilot|guy 22:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Why would'nt I think this? Your opinion has been noted. El_C 22:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

ArbCom seems a bit extreme. Bad behaviour warrants an RfC, while ArbCom is for flouting policy. I don't think Linuxbeak has done the latter, whatever I might think of the level of respect he shows the community (how did this guy get b'cratship?). -lethe ^{talk +} 22:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I certainly note them craefuly, but at the same time, I am also interested in what those not active on IRC think (sorry, I know that sounds discourteous). El_C 22:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I don't consider myself an IRC regular, though I do visit about once a month to get questions answered in real time. -lethe ^{talk +} 22:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

To be more blunt, I simply do not think an RfC can work in this case, because we cannot have non/active-in-IRC-community designations for editors, and IRC can deploy many people at once, thus, making related opinions appear to be greater in number than they would otherwise; then they actually are. El_C 22:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree that the groupthink that develops on IRC is counterproductive, and shouldn't be allowed to be put forth as policy by higher-ups here on WP. But what can be done about it? -lethe ^{talk +} 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't afford to be blunt, unlike El_C. I'd cause too much disruption. :-P (In short, I'm not falling for it ;-) ). Kim Bruning 22:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I support El C's line of reasoning. There is no bigger slap in the face of constructive editors than finding administrators willing to intervene against them, making themselves the tools of vandals like Mistress Selina Kyle. So long as admins act appropriately—protecting constructive editors and showing incompetent and disruptive editors the door—vandals are manageable nuisances. (Personally, I'm mildly amused by the attacks on my edits by the crackpots and LaRouche cultists at Wikipedia Review[35].) The problem only becomes unmanageable when admins fail to play their proper role. Some adminis intervene on behalf of vandals out of mere naivety; worse, others protect vandals because they truly have an affinity for them. As we saw with the lynchmob berating Kelly Martin and Snowspinner last year, there is a large contingent of admins, particularly the teenagers uninterested in content editing, who conceive of Wikipedia in exactly the same manner as users like Mistress Selina Kyle: as an social networking site, not an encyclopedia. In the end, these adminis probably cause far greater harm in the project than the vandals themselves. 172 | Talk 23:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

IRC cabal

I've just been banned from IRC (I'm unable to tell by whom). Is there a procedure for me to launch a complaint against this type of censorship? El_C 01:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I know this isn't what you're asking, but perhaps you should send a thank-you note instead of a complaint, since it is saving you from a potentially infinite timesink of pointless wanking. Nandesuka 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Please review WP:NPA, User:Nandesuka. Thanks. El_C 01:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC) I appear to have misread that as an attack against myself. My sincere apologies. El_C 02:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

#wikipedia is under the direct control of the Foundation, in theory. enwiki procedures are therefore largely irrelevant. You could complain to the Foundation (e.g., Jimbo), or perhaps one of the stewards (not sure about them). On a more technical level, the people who currently hold privileges sufficient to remove operator status from someone are: grunt, sannse, cyrius, Apple, Xirzon, karynn, Linuxbeak, James_F, Raul654, TimStarling, Mark_Ryan, FennecFoxen, DavidGerard, Angela, Essjay, JimboWales, Anthere, Snowspinner, and AdamBishop (all those being their IRC handles, of course, but most of their enwiki identities are pretty obvious). If you have trouble with the one who kicked you (I believe you've been made aware of his identity?), you could try asking one of them to remove his op status. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It is? I wasn't aware #wikipedia was controlled by anyone but Freenode and the owners of the channel. --Golbez 03:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

that's an Official Wikimedia Foundation venture... anything that starts with #wiki* or #wp* is, by arrangement with Freenode, a wikimedia channel. Thats why they bumped the CVU out of #wp-en-vandalism, a non-wikimedia group operating a channel reserved for the foundation. -M^ask 03:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

First just figure out why you're blocked, sometimes there's just technical reasons. Checking now. Kim Bruning 20:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You were kickbanned by NicholasT:

* ElC was kicked by NicholasT (Please come back when you have learned your manners)

unlike wiki bans, an irc "ban" is actually more like a temporary block. a k-line is permanent. They are typically shorter than wiki-blocks, and serve a similar purpose: to make sure you wait and cool down before you come back.

You were either manually or automatically unbanned just a little while later. You're welcome to come back to IRC at any time. Tempers tend to flare a bit more on irc, but temporary misbehaviour is forgotten a lot quicker too. I'm sure it won't happen again, on either side, right? :-) Kim Bruning 21:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The way things seem to play out there, I'm never coming back to IRC, ever. El_C 21:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Bishonen figured out what happened on IRC, in part. I still need some time to talk with people. Kim Bruning 22:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL, yes, Bishonen is brilliant. He means that to my own surprise I eventually found an IRC log file in the deep innards of my computer and figgered out how to make it load. Getting smarter every day. Bishonen | talk 00:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC).

Not that anyone will care what I think, but I don't use IRC and have no plans to start, and the idea that significant decisions are being (or might be) made there is troubling, at the very least. Thatcher131 23:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear. --You Know Who ^{(Dark Mark)} 23:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Disgust

That summarizes my reaction to those Wikipedia Review goons driving out Katefan0, Phaedriel, SlimVirgin, and FloNight, among others. I have to say, allowing those goons onto Wikipedia isn't worth losing those admins, which is why I'm glad that Selina and Blu Aardvark were blocked again. Wikipedia Review has always been a charming cauldron of simmering hatred and resentment, but they've crossed the line. I'm tempted to push for banning everyone on Wikipedia who posts on WR until they ban Brandt from their forum and formally apologize to the Wikipedia community. — Philwelch t 01:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you give me more information about where to read up on this matter. I'm rather ignorant on this stuff, but I have high regard for the people mentioned above. I'm not very well in the loop with this stuff. Thanks. Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 01:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Brandt isn't WR per say. He could do most of his stuff without them.Geni 01:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I got over the emotion of the moment, but I'm still disgusted when I think of Blu Aardvark's Amorrow's gloating comments when Katefan0 was driven off Wikipedia. That he's removed some things he did (such as the web page dedicated to Daniel's findings) is a sign that he has some restraint, but if we're going to start mentoring him, I think there should have been a little more time between his gloating about Katefan0's leaving and the start of his rehabilitation. --Deathphoenix ʕ 02:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Duh, not that this matters, but for some reason, I thought Blu Aardvark was Amorrow on WR, which he's not. In that case, much of my comments above w.r.t. this thread and Linuxbeak's actions are largely irrelevant. --Deathphoenix ʕ 20:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Phil's proposal seems sensible, and I have half a mind to bring it up on the village pump policy page. JoshuaZ 02:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Phil: We can't ban people on the basis of their private activities. It's not cricket. We will otherwise end up with a McCarthy-like scenario whereby we begin banning people because of perceived infractions in the outside world. I dislike Wikipedia Review intensely, but that does not mean we can intrude into the realms of outside Wikipedia to determine whether or not people are permitted to edit - that's frankly ridiculous. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Driving people off Wikipedia is not a private activity. Having police harass Wikipedia editors as retribution for a block is not a private activity. Organizing and encouraging this disruption is not a private activity. Nick, these people are a serious threat to our administrators and to the project, and we cannot just sit by and let these people pretend to be Wikipedians while plotting to destroy Wikipedia and driving away valuable contributors. — Philwelch t 02:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I still refuse to accept the proposition that Selina should be punished for not actively suppressing such activities' occurrence on her website. Brandt happens to frequent WR, but he's targeted Wikipedians before he joined it and would continue if banned from it. Compelling editors to take feel-good measures against people on their own websites is too much.

If you want to bring out things that Selina and Blu have actually done themselves, fine. Selina has insinuated that SV isn't actually Jewish and is really a neo-Nazi; when I confronted her (Selina) on IRC with the analogy of saying someone is Hitler because they're a vegetarian, she conceded that I did have a point there. Saying things like that is frankly stupid, but it's not so harmful that it mandates repercussions on Wikipedia itself; note how soundly WP:NPA-offline got shot down. (MSK didn't call SV a cunt, by the way; that was sgrayban.)

Off-Wikipedia insults are not sufficient to merit action on Wikipedia itself; stalking, harrassment, sure, but not just insults or dubious accusations. Libel, too, might merit action, but do keep in mind that libel is defined quite narrowly: it must be demonstrably false, it can't be clearly cast as an opinion, it must be made either with knowledge that it was false or reckless disregard for whether it was false. Suggesting that SlimVirgin might be a neo-Nazi based on house-of-card logic is ridiculous, but unlikely to be libelous under US law. And frankly, SlimVirgin has made some rather dubious accusations herself on occasion, to the tune of suggesting a conspiracy on the part of IRC users to support the illegal actions of certain posters at Wikipedia Review.

I would say: when it comes to off-site activity, only ban people for either illegal and Wikipedia-damaging activity, or lawsuits targeted against the Foundation or its contributors. When there's doubt about whether something's illegal, let the alleged perpetrator have the benefit of the doubt. Is this extremely forgiving? Sure. But I think it's the only way to avoid chilling valid criticism of the project and its members. Things like "libel" are, to laymen, far too vague to be applied without great care. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I cannot see how anyone can in good faith belong to both the Wikipedia community and the Wikipedia Review community, when the WR community is focused not on criticizing Wikipedia, but on harassing our editors and destroying us. — Philwelch t 05:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Put it this way. A rational person could believe that banning the Wikipedia-haters (i.e., shutting down the forum) would have no effect, because it's plausible they'd go start another forum. That would, if anything, likely be worse than WR, which is run by comparative moderates (i.e., they don't really hate Wikipedia). Therefore, there's no reason to assume that MSK and Blu are in any way endorsing the views of various harrassers and defamers. They may (Blu Aardvark told me something to this effect) believe, in good faith, that banning these people is totally pointless and would accomplish nothing. If that's the case, is it reasonable to ban them indefinitely?

But to be honest, we fundamentally disagree. I'm strongly in favor of free speech as a principle, and I'm strongly against holding people accountable for their associations alone. You object to (quasi-)defamatory statements more than I do, and you judge people by whom they associate with. I think you're being unjust and repressive, you think I'm supporting harrassment and defamation. We're not going to agree, and there's not really any point in continuing this vein. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 07:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Worse than WR, eh? What, they'd drive valued and trusted administrators off the project by threatening to harass their employers? Oh, wait...

As I mentioned before, WR used to be nothing more than a charming little cauldron of hatred and resentment. Back when it was just banned users whining about their bans we could safely ignore them. But what they did to Katefan0 crosses the line. Katefan0 was never controversial, and never did anything to deserve what happened to her. She is the victim of a vindictive attempt to attack Wikipedia itself. So far, no one on Wikipedia Review (and I've read their forums) has denounced this action. At best, they've objected on tactical grounds. Instead, they encouraged Brandt, egging him on to interfere in Kate's life even after she left Wikipedia.

Wake up, Simetrical. The world's changed while you were napping. — Philwelch t 18:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed that the Wikipedia Review and Brandt is causing some horrible things, already caused the loss of 5 users including SlimVirgin who was one of wikipedia bestever admins, and I'm myself was blackmailed by Brandt himself a few weeks ago. MSK banned amrrow and left the Review what I see and should be givin one last chance if she doesn't comment in that evil site anymore. I now endorse the full block on Blu and blocks on the main Review editors. This needs to stop. Thanks Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 02:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but it looks to me like Slim is still around. In any case, Nick has a point. What people do outside of Wikipedia is their business. What they do here is admin business. If I curse Jimbo out while singing in the shower, that's between me and my tiles, but if I do it on his biographical article, it's a different matter, right? Al 02:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• Still around? Do tell. She hasn't edited since blanking her user page last night. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
• Yeah, Al, I'd like to know what the hell you're talking about as well. And your tiles don't have a forum online. --Golbez 02:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Response to Al: Yes, but what if Jimbo is in the next shower stall, and you're cursing him over something that happened on Wikipedia? To me, that would be a community concern, as are attacks on Wikipedians by Wikipedians over Wikipedia issues, even if the attacks take place outside of Wikipedia. --Allen 02:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Up to a point, Alienus. When something outside Wikipedia becomes disruptive to the point where multiple of our most productive editors are leaving over it and many editors are being harrassed in real life, what happens outside does matter. Ultimately, we should act in the way that is best for Wikipedia. Keeping our heads in the sand and pretending that these events aren't harming the Wiki does not help matters. JoshuaZ 02:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe that we've lost some of our best admins, including SlimVirgin, to this ridiculous situation- it saddens me beyond any measure of believe.

However, it doesn't surprise me. Wikipedia is huge- and its getting larger every day. Given the vast number of people that are involved in the project, it's to be expected that disgruntled and off-kilter individuals will create things like the Wikipedia review. That it hasn't happened sooner is a blessing, but now that it HAS happened, it's something that Wiki needs to address.

There are people who are advocating ignoring the events that have transpired, claiming the mantra "What happens outside of Wikipedia has no bearing here". However, that's not the case, as is clearly evident in the past few days. The actions of WR have without a doubt had a damaging effect here, and (given that Wiki will continue to grow) this is only the beginning. Unless we can find a way to protect Wiki from the actions of former disgruntled users, more sites like this will pop up, we'll keep losing more and more good admins and the project will suffer immensely. -- Daniel Davis 03:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Silencing critics won't help a thing; If WikipediaReview dies, another will spawn in it's place, until we die off or become the perfect project. However, there is something to be said for that mantra. We have always held the belief true and close that what happens off of Wikipedia (aside from foundation affairs) shouldn't have a bearing here. Many controversial decisions have been made because based on that belief. If there is consensus to extend evidence and such to Off-Wiki interaction (Which there clearly is /not/ at this time, judging by the poll relating to WP:NPA), then let's apply that globally and re-examine major actions taken on these grounds. If not, then we should not use off-wiki information period. This is one situation in which a double standard cannot be allowed, both because of the actual possibility of abuse and the criticism we will generate. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 03:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Avillia, the first move was theirs. They were the ones who conflated on-wiki and real-life, by harassing Katefan0 at her place of business. Reaction in kind only makes sense. --Golbez 04:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority of the polling on WP:NPA occured before we had multipel admins run off the Wiki by WR and related antics. It is unreasonable to use that poll to demonstrate some sort of consensus. JoshuaZ 04:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't respond directly to everything that was said, because there's just been too much of it, but I also can't ignore what people have said to me.

I think we have an obligation to distinguish between free speech (even when it involves cursing out admins and saying Wikipedia sucks donkey elbows) and harmful action (such as revealing the private information of admins). In short, we must distinguish between insult and injury. Once we draw this line, we must then completely ignore all actions that are allowed, no matter how much they offend us.

If we fail to do this, then Wikipedia admins will continue to punish people for their constructive (and, yes, sometimes not so constructive) criticisms, which will have a chilling effect on the voluntary contributions of visitors. Remember, we're not paying these editors (or admins), so we have to be gentle with them. People will contribute only to the extent that they believe the system is fair and reasonable. Yes, we can and should stop people from harming Wikipedia, but we can't stop them from criticizing it, however rightly or not.

I say that we must grow thick skins and focus on our true goal, which is to improve Wikipedia, not punish the infidels that dare insult us. More than that, we should filter out the nonsense and listen for valuable suggestions hidden inside the complaints. There is much we do wrong and much that we can do better. And remember, even the perception of unfairness by admins causes harm. Al 04:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• Well, then, we're all hosed, because the world is full of people with authority issues (as well as people with a faulty understanding of the purpose of Wikipedia) that will automatically intepret any corrections of their behaviour on Wikipedia as unfair and will start crying like children deprived of their rattles no matter how carefully we try to handle things. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the problem lies in regard to Wikipedia critics, nor do I think anyone here is proposing that we "silence the critics". In any kind of an organization or "coming together" of the minds, the words of a critic can be oftentimes crucial in lending an ear to things that need improvement and change. Using that information can lead to improvements and fixes that might otherwise go unheeded. In that way, a site's harshest critics can be one of its strongest assets. In reality problem lies in those who are hell-bent on the destruction of Wiki and/or the volunteers who work on it, and who are actively attempting to destroy the site via intimidation, personal information posting and other such things. And, as my previous post addressed, it needs to be addressed by the Wiki community before it gets worse. These aren't merely people who are critical of the site. -- Daniel Davis 04:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The foundation has lawyers, perhaps they can offer practical, and more proactive, remedies. El_C 05:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

All I think needs to be said is this: I am a critic of Wikipedia and some of the unpleasant powertripping that passes itself off as interaction here, but I've never felt it necessary to join Nazis in slagging off the Jewish editors nor have I engaged in campaigns of hatred against particular editors. As one of those editors though, I'd be willing to give Blu and Selina another chance on my behalf. I am pretty toughskinned and I know I helped wind them up. I believe Blu feels he is working for the best of Wikipedia and I think Selina's more silly than bad. I don't see why though an editor of the standing of SlimVirgin should be expected to AGF of people who have subjected her several times to abuse that she has found very distressing. This is not a question of "silencing critics" but of protecting good contributors from the depradations of not so good contributors.

I think though that at an absolute minimum Selina should remove posts from her trollboard that contain personal information or harassment of editors here. You cannot be a party to that and claim you want to be a member of this community in good faith. Selina should also consider more strictly moderating the abusive comments on her board. It's possible to criticise Wikipedia, and the contributors to it, constructively, without trying to hurt anybody. Grace Note 06:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad these issues are finally coming to a head as I felt the Gator1 incident passed without the outcry it deserved. We have a username policy that recomends people use their real names when editing here and yet on the other hand I know of admins who have changed their usernames to hide their identity and use g-mail as it doesn't give an originating IP address. There are problems here with nuts who resort to serious real life harrassment of people, their families, and places of work when they feel agrieved. Wikipedia is NOT therapy - these people waste everyone's time and I seriously doubt if the knowledge base of the encyclopedia suffers in the long run from their absence. I also believe in free speech but this is not a license to disrupt - with that freedom comes responsibility. If someone hosts a website that allows personal information or harassment to continue they do not deserve a chance here until they have gone away for a few years and grown up a bit even if they clean it up now. To expect established respected editors to happily work side by side with editors who have harassed them is naive and egalitarian to the point of stupidity. Wikipedia does have problems and criticizing anything - especially admin actions - is liable to cause the editor with the grievence more grief even if they have a valid point. That however is life and if the user is not prepared to work within the system to improve it and worse still resorts to real life hassle of the "offending parties" then they should be banned pure and simple. This is Jimbo's "baby" and real people are suffering for working for him for free - he needs to take the lead on this one. If as been claimed above he personally approved the unblocking of these accounts without consulting the victims of their harssment then I shall follow SV and Flo as I have no wish to be part of some social experiment. Sophia 07:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Zordrac has claimed that if anyone used his site to stalk and harass anyone that he would walk away. These two incidents are a perfect opportunity to show that he is not a myopic crackpot, do the right thing, and shut the site down -- Malber (talk • contribs) 18:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Bottom line: We're building an encyclopedia, not running a rehab clinic. RadioKirk talk to me 13:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Good way to put it -- I never really meant it to be exactly so precise when I coined "Wikipedia is not therapy", but in this case, it's quite accurate. Sophia -- Wikipedia has always been, to some degree, a social experiment; trying to get an encyclopedia "anyone can edit" created by a universe that includes a remarkably high number of nasty people is, whether intended or not, an experiment. Me, I think it's likely to fail because of inescapable teen boy cultural bias; as one departed editor told me, there's a limit to the number of times one can tolerate being called a cunt. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I completely support Phil's suggestion above. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As do I. FeloniousMonk 22:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

We are building a religion (I mean an encyclopaedia)

It's funny, because the rhyme I remember from school is "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words can never hurt me". So I figure I have an unlimited tolerance for being called a cunt (good thing, really, given my personality).

RadioKirk, When you say "Bottom line: We're building an encyclopedia, not running a rehab clinic", bear in mind that you're speaking for yourself, not for Wikipedia. No-one speaks for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an ecosystem, a memeplex - its own thing, existing as a result of the aggreated and iterated uses people put it to, fair or foul, worthy or pointless, vain or virtuous (to the extent there is ever any consensus about these things). It doesn't have an agenda (not even being an encyclopaedia - when Our Lord Jimbo H. Wales unleashed the idea of an open source, anyone-can-edit platform he ceded any ability to control what Wikipedia is, and what Wikipedia is for, forever). Jimbo can turn off his servers, but even that wouldn't kill it; not now.

The best you can do is figure out a healthy environment for your beloved ecosystem to flourish in ways you (subjectively, acting in your own purely selfish, individual interest) like. Because that's what ever other bugger on this site is doing. So get over the Jesus complex; quit wringing hands about fallen comrades (let's face facts: it's a stunt: SlimVirgin will be back or I'm a banana): Think of yourselves not as owners, or guardians of a moral compass, but gardeners.

Now, would it be premature to volunteer to be Zephram Stark's mentor upon his no doubt imminent welcome back to the fold? :) ElectricRay 21:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

At 124 known sockpuppets (and counting), including one used today, Zephram Stark isn't coming back any time soon. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's be pragmatic for a second. We're here to build an encyclopedia. And the encyclopedia isn't going to be built very well if abusive users are allowed to continue their harrassment of legitimate editors through various unblocks, "mentorships", and chances at rehabilitation. There's a choice to be made here: what do we value more, attempted rehabilitation of bad editors or good editors? I think the correct solution is quite clear. They can't all coexist. You seem to just think this was a simple act of one user calling another a cunt. Not so! It's much more insidious than that. We have people being stalked in real life and employers being threatened. --Cyde↔Weys 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

ElectricRay doesn't appear to know or care about the real life implications of what he cavalierly dismisses. He needs to ask Phil Sandifer if having the police show up at his door was a stunt. Or Katefan0 if having her employer called repeatedly by Brandt was a stunt. MusicalLinguist will likely have an informed opinion on this as well. FeloniousMonk 22:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Suffice it to say that ElectricRay actually enjoys the presence of destructive users like Stark, and actively promotes their disruption of Wikipedia. His opinions are those of one who empowers and encourages trollery. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

And this is precisely where any dismissal of our intentions as part of some "Jesus complex" is exposed for the hypocrisy it is. The thought that a moral compass is being held by live people who will take extraordinary steps to ruin our real lives over a (real or perceived) slight at Wikipedia supercedes all else, even the encyclopedia itself. This no longer exists in the hypothetical, and no amount of pseudo-philosophy can change that. RadioKirk talk to me 00:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The interesting thing is that if someone is banned, they can come back, under a different name and agenda. That's what we expect people to do who have a shift in attitude and decide to be constructive. For example, if the guy/gal who originally created "Willy on Wheels" came back, and the first thing they posted was "I am the original Willy—sorry for all of the people I hurt" they would immediately recieve an indef. But if they quietly come back, and lie through the absence of statement, they recieve a welcome mat and everything. I'm wondering if there's a healthy in-between that can be worked out between those two options, because I never like shutting the door on someone forever, yet I don't like seeing people hurt. However, I don't like the idea of giving someone a chance while they still have connections to the WR and hivemind. There's too much of a chance that they are stormtroopers for these groups that have established themselves as malicious organizations out to destroy our free encyclopedia. I almost get the impression that they abused Linuxbeak's sympathy and compassion for others in order to create an oppourtunity for themselves.-- The ikiroid  00:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Raul654 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) unblocking Blu Aardvark.

Hooray! --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 00:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

We need two indef blocks

Straight from the new user log:

• 18:02, May 28, 2006 Charlies ballsack created new account User:Scrotum sam (Talk | contribs | block)

Someone has to block both of them.-- The ikiroid  00:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Add User:Half Baked to the list.-- The ikiroid  00:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blocked the first two; I'm inclined to leave User:Half Baked alone pending any contribs. RadioKirk talk to me 00:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Another bad username

Chucknorrisisgod (talk · contribs) should probably be blocked as a username violation.-- The ikiroid  01:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Dead. -Splash^talk 01:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Chuck Norris does username blocks before the account's even registered. How do you like them apples? robchurch | talk 00:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Les Aspin has Seignethaler type of vandalism

I found an unsubstantiated allegation on Les Aspin's bio. It accuses him of shoplifting while he was Clinton SecDef. There was no source. I removed it per policy. The tidbit was added by an anonymous IP in March. I have not been able to verify it so I removed it. It is disturbing that it could have been up there for that long (and with many subsequent edits) without challenge. I am not sure if Wikipedia Administrators can take any actions that would help cleanse the mirror caches or Goolge searches.

• 68.14.190.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the editor who added it.

Diffs are here. --Tbeatty 00:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

An administrator has apparently deleted the 68.14.190.169 contributions. This is actually worse since it makes it seem another editor is actually responsible for the edits. Now the diffs are here but the edit that actually added the material is now deleted. --Tbeatty 19:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Bumfun

I don't know if there's a speedy deletion criteria for pages created purely for shock value, but Bumfun probably belongs on that list. Basically, the page is only there to show a large picture of two people having anal sex. The image itself is probably a copyvio from some porn site. Two users, User:Meinbratwurst and User:Analcrusader, are responsible for this page. I resized the image down to 4 pixels so it's far less intrusive, but I still think someone should delete the page, protect it, and enforce whatever can be enforced against the creator(s). --Elkman 04:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the article as nonsense and protected against re-creation. -- Longhair 04:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I nuked the image as a copyright violation. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 04:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Now, I just need to go and use the Brain Brillo. --Elkman 05:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Alienus

I'm not sure if there is a violation here but Alienus has recently (or at least since I've come back to wikipedia) been posting comments on talk pages of articles such as Homosexuality and Abortion for different articles loosely related such as Homosexual Agenda and Pro-choice. I believe this is in an attempt to tip the scales of the article away from a 50-50 balance to his POV, however I can't prove this. He has also accused me of making POV hot-spots (even though I am trying to maintain a version preceding my arrival at the article and am helping preserve valid points). Thanks, Chooserr 04:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What is the nature of these comments?

KV 04:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The comments are usually pretty neutral "Editors of this article may be interested in the events on pro-choice." however they are posted on articles where (I believe) he feels he'd find a large group of supporters. I think of it as a form of wheel warring myself, but I'm not positive about what the rules say. Chooserr 05:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi. My name is Alienus and Chooserr has chosen to report my actions as an incident instead of talking to me about them. This lack of good faith is disheartening, but the content of his accusations is even worse.

In any case, I'm definitely "guilty" of posting messages on main articles about activity on related articles. For amusement, compare this with Chooserr's practice of sending messages to editors who he hopes will be sympathetic (such as [36]]).

I think it's entirely reasonable to alert editors to changes that might interest them. If they decide to follow the link, they can then decide for themselves just how to respond, regardless of anything I suggest (and, actually, I rarely suggest anything). Note that this is not any sort of vote-stacking, both because there is no voting involved and because I'm inviting everyone equally.

In short, I'm not violating either the spirit or letter of Wikirules. If anything, I'm doing a good deed by getting more editors involved in these controversial articles to avoid edit-warring.

Anyhow, I think this whole thing is a non-issue that could have been entirely avoided if Chooserr had assumed good faith and simply messaged me directly. Sorry for the trouble he's caused you. 05:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Alienus,

I haven't sent any messages looking for support since I got back, and really don't intend to, however even if I am guilty (these things hang around a long time) that doesn't mean you have to do the same thing...does it? Any way, since you want me to message you directly I will. Chooserr 06:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh Aleinus,

That isn't requesting support (he'd already voted against me) I just wanted to make sure that he knew about the subject at hand because it is possible that he didn't look at the talk page recently. Also I hardly expected support from Dcovenent(?). Chooserr 06:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The link I posted, which shows an example of you recruiting editors, is less than 24 hours old. In any case, why are we talking here? We both have Talk pages, as do all the articles. Are you intentionally trying to abuse Wikipedia processes to make a WP:POINT or is this merely the unintentional result? Al 07:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Please, I'm not abusing wikipedia anymore than you are and if you really care why I respond here I'll tell you. I believe that if I'm accused in public I have the right to justify myself in public. Also I wasn't recruiting editors and you don't have proof that I went up to convantD and said "Hey, want to put Alienus up for a 3RR violate". If you do then show it. Chooserr 09:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the title of the section as it looks very much like a point is trying to be made. As Al says - go to your talk pages. Sophia 07:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

User:£

Spreading slander on Estonia and Estonian politics: creating article Eesti Iseseisvuspartei (contains obviously erraneous information and libel on Estonian Independence Party; I've asked for deletion); libel on Pro Patria Union page [37]. This is surely not a content dispute, but an obvious attempt to falsify information. --Constanz - Talk 06:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Now the slander article has been deleted by an admin; however, the vandalistic user has not been warned yet. I think that given the user's previous 'contributions', a block would still be an option.--Constanz - Talk 09:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Another addition by the user concerned: [38]. I'll report vandalism in progress.

Reiki vandal and suspected sock puppet

User 58.178.137.47 vandalised Reiki with this edit. Given the history of edits, can someone please check if the account is a sockpuppet. Thanks. Mccready 08:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Mcready. You are most unhelpful. Why don't you try talking to me? You bet I know my way around Wikipedia. Your behaviour is borderline breaching WP:OWN on that article. You are making the mistake of thinking you couldn't possibly be in the minority when actually, you are in the minority. Your edits are unwanted. Get over yourself. I am nobodies sockpuppet. I am simply anonymous. 58.178.137.47 11:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Further to that, which user are you also accusing? Who do you claim I am sockpuppet of? I hope you notified them. 58.178.137.47 04:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Paul Cyr

Relentlessly slanders me and posts baseless, bad faith, tags on my userpage (user check would easily reveal proof to the contrary of slander!)Pantherarosa 09:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Jamalik

Could an admin please use the rollback button on Jamalik's edits? He/she has been spamming articles on Bollywood actresses with ads for a commercial website. I'd rather not have to revert these one by one. He/she has been warned. Zora 10:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh bother. He/she/it was also spamming the same site as 202.38.62.8. Any edits made by that anonIP on the 29th need to be rolled back too. It hit a lot of articles. Zora 10:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

All done. --pgk^(talk) 10:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Tavvkar.

"Tavvkar." (contribs) is clearly imitating Tawker. - WP:BP#Usernames. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 14:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Blocked. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmph. Beat me to it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Augh

Pat8722 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) has been editing my UT page for about a month now, and he keeps making threats to desysop me. Why? Well, about a month ago, I blocked him for 24 hours for making six reverts in twenty-four and a half hours (but never 4 in 24) at Libertarianism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). He has since been saying that I've violated policy by blocking him, that he has a right to three reverts a day, and further he has been asking me what the procedure is to desysop me. I've directed him to the policy page numerous times, but he does not seem to understand the intent of the 3RR. I'm at my last straw with him, and I can't think of anything more I can do to convivnce him of the intent of the 3RR. I have also not paid any attention to the Libertarianism article, so I have no idea if he's still been at it there. Regardless, I need some help here. User talk:BorgHunter is where the problem is, and he also has a RfC at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pat8722. —BorgHunter (talk) 15:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been there. If he keeps going on and on and refusing to drop it or to take it elsewhere, and you've told him all you can, then I suggest saying "I've told you all I can, I don't think this discussion is productive, I will not be continuing it". The 3RR block was definitely justified. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 16:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

External Link Spam

I am requesting that the external link [39] be blacklisted (or whatever it takes to block the whole domain) because it is being spammed on a number of cases by a number of IPs. I am including some links to the IPs that are spamming them and every single edit done by these users is to spam these forums. 200.55.64.219 (talk · contribs · logs), 200.55.75.96 (talk · contribs · logs), 200.55.87.45 (talk · contribs · logs) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SirGrant (talk • contribs) .

Zeq

Zeq (talk · contribs · logs) is vandalizing Israeli apartheid (phrase) for POV reasons removing documented information he doesn't like (ie information on what proponents of the phrase say). Homey 18:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a content dispute to me. --Cyde↔Weys 19:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

He's repeatedly blanked a large part of the article for POV reasons. Homey 19:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, one must consider some previous edits.Dirty Chuck 19:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you read the talk page of the article. There is a good faith dispute on the source Homey used and there is clear indication that he pushed his POV using "facts" that have been shown to be wrong [40] (an edit by 3rd part User:Tewfik)

• Homey also edit war with several other users on this article and misuse his admin power:

1. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:Homeontherange_reported_by_User:PinchasC
2. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:Homeontherange_reported_by_User:Pecher

Zeq 19:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If someone has breached WP:3RR, please report it at WP:AN/3RR. If this is an attempt to get some outside opinion on a dispute, please use WP:RFC. Jkelly 19:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The article on the phrase Israeli apartheid, one section is on what proponents of the phrase argue, another is on what critics of the phrase retort. Zeq keeps deleting the first section leaving the second thus POV'ing and unbalancing the article. Homey 19:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I am glad to hear that you acknowledge it is a good faith content dispute(and not vandalism as you have claimed) . What you think of as NPOV is to me looks like POV and what you think as POV I think is NPOV. Sounds like some dispute resolution maybe an WP:RFC is a good idea. We are not going to resolve this conetnt dispute on the ANI board or by editwar and blocks like you tried too ..... Zeq 19:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a matter of content dispute. Not the other way around.What I'm trying to say is that consideration and trust are your allies here.Dirty Chuck 19:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Repeatedly blanking a section of the article you don't like is vandalism. If you think you can find a better source for the material on proponents of the phrase why don't you find some? That would be the good faith thing to do. Instead you blank a section on proponents of the term leaving only the section on opponents of the term. You also make other very POV changes like changing "analogy" to "false analogy" and changing "phrase" to "propaganda phrase" thus trying to rewrite the article as a POV attack. Homey 19:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

This content dispute has been addressed on the article talk page (before Homey blocked me). This discussion is moved back there. Zeq 19:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Its obvious Homey is attempting to drum up support so that he can get out of a block.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Suspicious username

Willie van der vyver (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Isn't that mean "Willy on Wheels"? I'm not sure, but it looks kind of suspicious.--User:Ikiroid 19:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, a user account created, but no edits so far. I think we can expect a few actions happening at or after the four day mark. --Deathphoenix ʕ 19:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Or alternatively, we can just do a username block. --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 19:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

But what does it mean??--User:Ikiroid 19:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't mean anything, "van der vyver" is a normal Dutch surname (well, a bit Americanized, but recognizable). I wouldn't block it. Eugene van der Pijll 19:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; assume good faith on this one; Van Der Vyver is a common Dutch/Afrikaans surname (try googling it). Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 19:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I don't know any Dutch or German, and I figured that "Vyver" meant "Wheels" or something. Though I now guess it's closer to "Pfeiffer". It's my fault.--User:Ikiroid 19:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem ... I wish Google had Dutch translation utility but they don't, yet. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 19:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Try babelfish. It has Dutch: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ It translated Willy on Wheels as "Willy op wielen". --Tony Sidaway 05:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

An accurate translation. As to "vijver" (correct spelling in Dutch), this is a pond. Yet another piece of uttely unsollicited information. :) Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

38.100.80.101

This user(ip) has vandalized my userpage 3 times and 2 other users have vandalized it the same way also; they might be the same person. It would be a great help if someone could ban him from wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Earth KING (talk • contribs) .

I have left an additional warning at the IP's talk page. Earth KING, it would help if you didn't respond to the vandalism so virulently. Vandals get less enjoyment and stop quicker if they don't seem to be successfully provoking their targets. JoshuaZ 20:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Sick rascist

Can someone please stop this rascist user Alexr88, [41], IMO he should be permanently blocked for this disgusting rascism, SqueakBox 22:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is disgusting racism, but let's just take it easy. I don't think he deserves a block, but you should leave a warning on his talk page. Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 22:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've left my two cents. The user has a history of good-faith contributions and I couldn't find any previous warnings... maybe his little brother got onto the computer. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 22:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I checked the user's other contributions; they all seem to be focused on a relatively unknown area of Serbia called "Zrenjanin"- the recent edit appears to the be first offensive thing ever posted by this user. It's also a very strange edit, considering his user contribution history. If anything, I might wager a guess that someone else may have gotten ahold of the account. I don't support a block at the time, but I do recommend watching the user a little more closely. -- Daniel Davis 22:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The user's history isn't invariably constructive, but certainly is on the whole. Assuming good faith, I'm inclined to agree with Daniel and Sam that this edit may have been made by someone on Alexr's computer; even were the comment to have been made by the user, though, I don't think it's blockable (and surely not indef blockable), as its not particularly disruptive and is isolated. As Mr. Lefty says, though, a talk page note (phrased more decorously than that which SqueakBox left) is surely in order; if he didn't make the offending edit, he'll surely be glad to know that he ought to be more careful about signing out when on a computer accessible to others who might be inclined to vandalize. Joe 22:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool. It may be that he is from Eastern Europe and doesn't understand that people react to rascism very differently in the English speaking world (cos if he was English/American I would oppose a second chance), I hope my message got the point across that this sort of behaviour isn't acceptable, SqueakBox 22:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Similarly, though, I hope that the messages of others who responded conveyed the idea that, even were this user to be a native English speaker and to have admitted to making the comment, a block, to say nothing of an indefinite block, would likely be inappropriate in the absence of other disruption. Joe 23:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

He claims he didn't know what the problem in using the word nigger was. I have told him in no uncertain terms and would remind other users that if wikipedia starts becomiong tolerant of rascism and rascists that that will come out in the media with dire consequences for wikipedia. Not blocking people aeven for a few hours even when they know what a sick term it is for calling others niggers is totally unacceptable in my opinion and I suspect in that of the majority of people. Please, this is not the 1950's, SqueakBox 14:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Racist comments are absolutely sufficiently disruptive for a block. I can't think of anything that is more inflammatory. Maybe give a warning first, but certainly persisting in making such comments in and of itself is enough to block the user. Postdlf 15:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I agree with SqueakBox and Postdlf. Blatant racism like that is inherently disruptive and damaging, and should be enough for at least a brief block, even from an otherwise good contributor. --Allen 15:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I find SqueakBox's behavior in this incident actually more offensive than Alexzr's. Alexzr uses a term loaded with negative racial connotations in a benign way, while SqueakBox responds with personal attacks loaded heavily with vitriol directed at a fellow editor of wikipedia. What makes "stinking racist scumbag" more acceptable than "nigger"? I'm not saying using the n-word should be tolerated. It can cause offense to people even if it's not intentional or directed against someone, but I find the personal attacks more offensive. SqueakBox, consider this a warning. -lethe ^{talk +} 15:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Lethe. Joe 15:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

We have an encyclopedia article on the word that explains why it's so offensive. I pointed him in that direction. Sometimes, a little education is better than harsh criticism. --Elkman 15:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ann Furedi

I have posted an article on Ann Furedi, the founder of the BPAS abortion provider, chair of the Pro-choice Forum, member of the British Embroyology and Fertilisation Authority, Living Marxism writer, and wife of the founder of the British Communist Party of Great Britain. It gets repeatedly deleted. I have no idea why, and I get no explanation. It is simply a few biographical facts about a person who has had much influence in these matters in Britain in recent years. I don't know what to do and I would be grateful for some help. If you can help, please contact me on my talk page. Thank you. Ros Power 20:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I have discussed the issue with the deleting administrator, and have since restored the article. It was deleted because it was mistaken for an "attack page", an article that exists solely to disparage its subject. I am sorry about the mistake, but would also like to suggest that you enlist the aid of an experienced editor to ensure such a mistake is not repeated when people look at your future articles. Happy editing! fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 21:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Full frontal attack by Chooserr

In the last 24 hours, User:Chooserr has filed an incident report on me in bad faith and has encouraged another user to file a bogus 3RR violation report on me. Now, he's been violating the consensus on condom and leaving dishonest edit messages.

If you take a look here, you'll see that this Roman Catholic opponent of condom use has modified the text against consensus to make condoms seem riskier. His first edit comment was blank, while his second misleading claimed to be "rvv". There has been no vandalism, just a few editors who happen not to agree with him.

Any of these incidents on its own would be annoying, but his pattern of edits as of late has been, well, obnoxious. It is my understanding that Wikirules require us to leave honest edit comments, and Chooserr has clearly failed to do this. His bogus report also violated WP:POINT and wasted the time of admins.

I'm not asking for a block, although I wouldn't argue against one. I'm asking that he be warned about his behavior and discouraged from continuing it. Al 02:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now he's saying that "rvv" was actually "rw". Squint and see if you can tell the difference. Al 02:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a content dispute. From the relevant talk page, it appears that you two are talking, so hopefully you can reach a suitable compromise. You may find it useful to find a third opinion about the matter at hand but at this moment this does not require administrator intervention. Isopropyl 02:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, it's not a content dispute. Rather, it's a pattern of behavior that violates wikipedia rules. I can handle content disputes just fine, but he's gotten the admins involved twice so far, and he's likely to do it again.

In short, even if you're not going to even give him a warning about WP:POINT and misleading edit comments, I'm glad I put this out here for the record. I'm going to reference this if his activities continue. Thank you. Al 02:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It's probably not a good idea to snap back like that, it will put off-side people who otherwise might have been inclined to look into it. If you're frustrated with someone's response, recall that we're not monolithic here. Wait and see if someone else has something different to say. - brenneman ^{L} 08:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, I don't see any part where I actually snap. I pretty much expect inaction from admins at this point. Al 08:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I suppose that I'm being talked about again, so I'll just make a quick reply. I haven't trying to make condoms seem riskier than they are just mention the chance of failure up front. I did not file a false report against Alienus, or encourage anyone else to do so (please give me some proof otherwise). Besides that I've been using "rw" for R[e]W[rite] for a very long time. Chooserr 08:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's the false report: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Alienus

Here's the false 3RR report by your buddy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Alienus_reported_by_User:CovenantD

I think that's entirely clear. As for "rvv" using "rw", the two look almost identical in the default font, so it's an unwise choice. It's also no excuse for making major changes to an article without even a meaningful summary.

On top of that, you've started an edit war with me over homosexual agenda, and you admit to intentionally edit-warring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alienus#Pay_attention_and_don.27t_make_accusations

Pretty open and shut. Al 08:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Can I suggest you both stop clogging up this noticeboard, stick to your talk pages and start an RfC if necessary? Chooser began this public spat and I can understand Al's need to set the story straight but I think this approach is counter productive to both editors and an unsympathetic admin could decide you both need a cooling off break. Sophia 08:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

That presupposes that there might be an unsympathetic admin who... oh, wait, never mind. Ok, I take your point. I only brought this up because two attempts have been made to get me blocked in the last day, and both involve Chooserr. I've said my piece, so I'm going to pack my bags and head back to my own Talk page, where random blocks are less likely to occur. Al 12:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sofia, I didn't begin any "public spat", and Alienus the first wasn't a "false report" because you were actually doing what I accused you of, it just wasn't a violation of the rules is all. And I don't care to see that ConvantD filed a report against you. I want to see the message where I told him to. Try providing that.

Oh and when you know while it might be cleché there is a phrase "it takes two to tango" which basically sums up our edit warring. Your "with" is a good indicator that you edit war as well. Chooserr 09:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As per the above, please consider this matter closed for now. Feel free to archive or delete this section. Al 12:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Essjay has indef blocked User:Lou franklin for NLT.

User:Lou_franklin, User_talk:Lou_franklin, Special:Log/User:Lou_franklin. Should be mentioned here per the ArbCom case and the finality of the ban. --Avillia ^{(Avillia me!)} 02:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Endorse ban. JoshuaZ 02:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Endorse. I would also suggest at this point that Lou may have exhausted this community's patience. That is, even if he withdraws his threat I don't see the point of unblocking him. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Endorse. Given that Lou Franklin was being blocked nearly continuously for violation of his personal attack paroles (imposed by Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lou franklin) he wasn't going to be here much longer anyway. Using a sock to get around the ArbCom restrictions would seem to suggest that he has no intention of ever following our policies. I note that Lou has fewer than 100 article space edits, all but one to Societal attitudes towards homosexuality. (One was to Internet troll; go figure). Since he is barred from editing that article, there really doesn't seem to be anywhere left for him to 'contribute' even if he were unbanned. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Can't be bothered to get the diffs, but I remember that Lou franklin made the edit to Internet troll in response to someone suggesting he should edit articles other than SATH, and after making that edit he made a comment along the lines of "there you go". Thus violating that most sacred of policies, Wikipedia:Don't improve articles to illustrate a point :-). (His sockpuppet made some copyedits to throw up a smokescreen, though.) --Sam Blanning^(talk) 13:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I heartily endorse this event or product. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I believe Lou is a good example of m:MPOV. Here's my analysis of how he stacks up to MPOV:

MPOV item	Lou franklin's behavior
You know you're acting in good faith, but assume many others involved are acting in bad faith.	Guilty. He thinks that editors opposing him are homosexual.
You believe that all other versions of the article are biased.	Guilty. He often refers to edits opposing his view as "vandalism".
You refer to your preferred version as the "NPOV version" in edit summaries.	Not guilty ostensibly, although he repeatedly uses words like "propoganda," "advocacy," "bias," etc. to justify his reverts.
You believe it is necessary for you to revert the article more than three times a day.	Guilty. He believes that 3RR doesn't apply to the {{NPOV}} tag.
You accuse others of conspiring to produce a bad version of the article.	Guilty. As above, he thinks there is a "gay cabal" behind the SATH article.
The other editors say you act as though the article is somehow yours.	Guilty. Lf has been described as "stubborn" and has even openly admitted this.
You threaten to quit Wikipedia for good if you don't get your way — yet you don't actually leave.	Not guilty.
Upon reading this list, you are convinced that most of the people you deal with are suffering from MPOV.	Guilty. When he was introduced to the MPOV article, his first reaction was to ask whether the article was controlled by gay editors.
Accusing others of forming a cabal or conspiring against you.	Guilty. As above.
Being dragged in front of the Arbitration Committee and beaten with a cluestick.	Guilty. That's exactly what happened when the ArbCom banned him from editing SATH.
Accusing the Arbitration Committee of pursuing a vendetta against you.	Not guilty ostensibly, although he has referred to the decision as "dereliction of duty" from the top.
Launching an arbcom case against the Arbitration Committee.	Not guilty.
Producing a website solely and exclusively about the evils of Wikipedia.	Not guilty.

21:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Almost Famous' repeat blanking, personal attacks, and incivility

This user has continually blanked his talk page ([42][43]) despite continual warnings. He also has made numerous personal attacks and uncivil comments to editors ([44][45][46][47]). I considered advising him on the Right to Vanish policy, but it doesn't apply unless the editor's real name is in use (at least that's how I understand it). Editor has threatened me [48]. This isn't to say that I handled this perfectly. I probably should've contacted an admin earlier, but I had hoped that general warnings[49] and civil recommendations[50]. +Wes! &#149; ^T_c 06:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked him for a week as he has been repeatedly warned for incivility, personal attacks, and disruption. I don't see anything particularly constructive coming from that account, but I think he may just need a week cool-down period to rethink his actions. Feel free to lengthen, shorten, or remove altogether the block. AmiDaniel (talk) 06:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but if things heat up again, I'll contact you first. Wes! &#149; ^T_c 07:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It's considered impolite, but allowed, to delete comments from your own user talk page. Furthermore, people often blank their user talk pages when they leave the project, and sometimes even delete them. -lethe ^{talk +} 08:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I also note that he was warned about removing warnings from his user talk page, but as near as I can tell, there never were any warnings there (before the removal of warnings warning). -lethe ^{talk +} 08:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Upon closer inspection, I see that there were indeed some warnings. -lethe ^{talk +} 09:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that this user had a sock puppet alert issued [51], and I suspect continued sock puppet activity with newer accounts (as the older puppets get banned for policy violations). See the history for articles such as Calendar Islands Long Island, Maine, Bay Currents (and its afd) among others. I can provide more evidence if anyone's interested. Thanks! Econrad 18:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What Really Happened

The info-en enquiries address got about half-a-dozen enthusiastic letters in the last few hours about Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/What Really Happened; I explained to them that they had to contribute to the discussion not write to us. But, wow, on looking at it that's a messy "discussion"... someone might want to take a look at it. Shimgray | talk | 12:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears (from looking at the discussion page) that someone nommed "What Really Happened" for deletion, an individual on the site posted a "go here and vote!" message on that site, and in the short period of time since then, the nom has been completely filled with anon editors who contribute only one edit- to try and "keep" this page, and "skew" the vote. Isn't there a policy or something against this kind of ballot stuffing? -- Daniel Davis 12:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The policy is "there is no ballot to stuff"; it's a discussion to try and gain consensus among the community, not a vote. If someone's keeping an eye on it now, though, they're more likely to be able to close it with a good understanding of the situation than if they look at it for the first time five days from now. Shimgray | talk | 12:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked Mike Garcia's "younger brother"

Joey_Garcia (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)

I've indefinitely blocked the above user because his only edits have been to attack Mike Garcia, including the creation of Template:User Greaser that I speedy-deleted (see this if you're an admin). Also, this user is trying to impersonate Mike's younger brother. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Virus infection

I want to report a serious incident. While checking in my watchlist the changes made in external links, my computer became infected with VBS Malware (Script). What happened ? When adding an external link to an article one adds first (between brackets) the url of the site , then a blank space, and then the description of the url. A vandal switched the url with another url with an inconspicuous name, but leaving the description unchanged. When checking this change, this new url proved to be a sex site, that immediately tried to take control of my computer. By breaking off the internet connection at once (the only thing I could do because my computer didn’t react any more otherwise), I could minimize the damage but it took still more than two hours to clean up my computer. Off course, I gave the vandal User:194.22.238.192 an indefinite block. Luckily, I KNEW a change had been made and could react quickly, but an unsuspecting viewer would only see the description of the (original) url and would not suspect foul play.

I don’t know if this has happened ever before, but this is serious enough to warrant our attention to this problem : Wikipedia can infect our computers with a virus through an (innocent looking) external link. This is reason enough for us all to be double alert and certainly check all changes to the external links of the articles in our watchlist. But then I wonder, how many of such malicious changes would remain unnoticed ? I think we have a serious problem at hand. JoJan 15:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

However bad the vandalism is we don't indef block IPs unless they are open proxies. Could some also add the links to the spam blacklist (I'm not really sure how to do so myself, could someone explain)? Petros471 15:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The spam blacklist is a protected page on Meta, so you'll need a meta admin to do this. --Cyde↔Weys 16:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

May I recommend anti-virus software and Firefox? Well, I guess you wouldn't need the antivirus with Firefox. Thanks for alerting me though, I'll keep it in mind when I'm surfing with IE. --mboverload@ 20:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)--mboverload@ 20:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Encyclopedist (aka Clyde vandal) announces massive vandalism attack

A few weeks back, Encyclopedist blew up at User:John Reid, and launched a major sock-puppetting attack on John. When the attack was traced back to Encyclopedist and the underlying IP was blocked, Encyclopedist staged a showy exit from the project. Except he has never fully left, continuing to request unblocking of the IP itself. This request has been denied several times.

Now, on that IP talk page, he says that he was the "Clyde vandal" (not familiar with that vandal myself), that he's about to gain access to a large number of different computers from which to edit, and about to launch some new, major vandal attacks against John Reid, User:Mackensen, and the project in general.

No idea how credible the threat is, but this guy has definitely displayed some finesse in his previous attacks on John. Mostly wanted to toss this up here to get a few more eyes on alert if he does begin his threatened assault tomorrow. - TexasAndroid 18:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Blanning and Falun Gong block

Looking into a block done by User:Samuel Blanning on Apr 22 on User:Jeff_Fenstermacher (and User:Samuel Luo). Jeff asserts that Luo blanked a section without discussion (at 14:50 [52]), which Jeff reverted as as a vandalist act ([53]). Luo eventually did post on Talk over the disputed section, but this was at 15:26 ([54]), well after the edit war between himself and Jeff had started. So... it occurs that Jeff has a point to say that blanking without comment is vandalism, especially on a controversial article. Up until such time as Luo decided to accede to starting a talk page discussion, his blanking could be considered vandalism, the reversion of which is not considered reversion for the purposes of WP:3RR. Any input on this? - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 20:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, sorry if this was brought up before. It is hard to navigate the AN/I archives, but I did try. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 20:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are you bringing up a block that was for a single hour over a month ago? Syrthiss 20:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Because Jeff has refused to drop this since it happened. A month ago he made a request for an advocate in the matter, which was rejected by Mahogany on the grounds that, if I may oversimplify, I was right, and it has apparently now been picked up at last by Keith.

There was a content dispute on Falun Gong in which both Samuel and Jeff violated 3RR and were blocked by me for an hour each to cool down. Jeff claimed that because Samuel was removing a section of an article, his edits came under the definition of 'blanking vandalism'. I reject this defence. Samuel is not a vandal, he has never been a vandal, and he was removing that section in good faith (whether he was 'right' is something entirely different, and something I, as an administrator, do not pass judgement on - the fact that he was remiss in providing a full explanation does not mean he was acting in bad faith either). The reason the block was only for an hour was because I thought Jeff did honestly believe that his side of the edit war was exempt from 3RR - and I couldn't very well give Jeff 1 hour and Samuel 12 or 24.

I will not accept the claim that no-one may remove a section of an article without being accused of vandalism. Ever. If you have any more questions, Keith, ask me on my talk page. I did not submit the block for review on any of the admin noticeboards. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 23:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

User:T J W

New user with "He's back..." on his user page is tagging articles with {{unreferenced}}. Thus far, the tags are correct, but does this ring a bell with anyone? RadioKirk talk to me 20:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Add User:TJ The Avenger to the list... RadioKirk talk to me 20:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Just blocked both after the second one put up San Francisco, California on WP:AFD... RadioKirk talk to me 20:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Put the nom on BJAODN. We need a good laugh. Will (^E_@) T 21:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't funny. Kusma (討論) 21:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Vlad III Dracula, redux

User:Anittas continues to restore unsourced material to this page, and refuses to list a source, vaguely pointing to the References section, but the reference he gave up above has nothing to do with any of the references in the References section, and, as I indicated above, a .doc file reference is difficult for most users to access, unless they have Word installed on their computer. I can't protect or block, but I need some outside intervention. All I'm asking for is one link, for God's sake! User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have given a link and yes, it is a Doc file. Where does it say that a Doc file is not good enough? A doc file is more accessible than a book. Here is the link again. The other source is mentioned in the reference section: Dracula: Prince of Many Faces (1989). Florescu, Radu R. and Mcnally, Raymond T. Little, Brown and Company. ISBN 0316286559 --Candide, or Optimism 21:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

So where have you given that link in the article? User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The link is in the article, in the External link section. --Candide, or Optimism 21:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Why would anyone think a Word file constitutes a reliable source? Though the one given has footnotes, none of them are actual sources. This file seems to have been produced for a language class. It's not presented for being accurate history, but as a reading exercise. A Word file is a rather extreme case of "self-published", and we don't accept even self-published books as sources. (The Florescu book is...how shall we say... not terribly scholarly, as well, put at least it cites an occasional document.... ). The Russian text of the Word document obviously is taken from somewhere rather than generated by the teacher (It's attributed to Efrosin, a monk in the Kirillo-Beloozerskii monastery and dated 1486 to 1490 AD). Find out where that somewhere is, and you'd have a decent reference to include. Of course, it would hardly represent recent research! - Nunh-huh 22:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The Florescu book, regardless what you think of it, is a valid source. --Candide, or Optimism 22:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Can somebody give me a hand with how to use Template:Cite to add this link as a footnote? User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

does it have to be "cite"? How about adding <ref>''The Tale of Dracula'' Russian manuscript circa 1490, with English translation in MS Word format at http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~jrh11/DracParNEW.doc</ref> in-line, and then <references/> where you want the footnotes to appear? - Nunh-huh 22:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The user is now spamming every page I work on with complaints that they're not cited enough, and threats to essentially blank the page (as he was doing a few minutes ago). --InShaneee 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Zoe said that I should discuss things, so I took the discussion to one of those pages (not every page). According to you and Zoe, unsourced material can be removed. These are your exact words:

WP:V NOTHING unreferenced can stay, for ANY reason. Period. --InShaneee 21:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

--Candide, or Optimism 22:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It's worse than being unsourced. The individual has directly LIFTED (as in plagarized) several articles about Dracula. Take a look at, for example, the "burning of the poor" paragraph. It's a verbatim rip from the text on the Meet Dracula site [55]. The rest is the same way. Do not allow this to remain in the article. -- Daniel Davis 22:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Unwelcoming User Talk Page

I'm not sure what to do about this (or whether it's really a violation of anything), but User:Darkzone's talk page says:

• No Crackheads
• No gay people
• No New Yorkers
• And NO FREAKS

...and... YOU don't get to talk on my talk page HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Clearly, this doesn't promote a welcoming environment on Wikipedia. Thanks in advance. joturner 22:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Worse, his user page is a dead-on copy of Hurricane Katrina... RadioKirk talk to me 22:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that, although I didn't think that really was in violation of anything (although I agree it's not a good idea). I simply removed the fair-use images. joturner 22:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I left a lightly worded note first, I'll see what the responce is. Prodego ^talk 22:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

to be fair, m:friends of gays have been barred from editing for some time, so he's working according to existing consensus policy. The Land 22:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It is just satire, it should be evident from the last point. Lapinmies 23:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Articles without references

If someone removes material from articles that have no references, will that count as vandalism? Will the one who reverts back to the version that holds no references be guilty of anything? --Candide, or Optimism 22:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

From WP:RS, third paragraph: "unsourced edits, or edits relying on inappropriate sources, may be challenged at any time." RadioKirk talk to me 22:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What is the proper way to challenge "unsourced edits"? I don't know how to go about. Can I remove them without discussing it first, or should I attempt to discuss it first? --Candide, or Optimism 22:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You can remove anything unsourced at any time; it is considered polite, though, to attempt discussion at the article's talk page. :) RadioKirk talk to me 22:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Annitas is being disingenuous, and is just trying to cause a ruckus because of the disagreement over Vlad III Dracula. The disagreement appears to be at an end, and later this evening, I will attempt to do the footnoting (can't right now), which should solve the problem on that article. But a mass unreference deletion will not be looked kindly upon. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm actually very pleased. I've learned a lot from you and your friend. No sarcasm intended. --Candide, or Optimism 22:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I read "Vlad III Dracula, redux" above, and just thought I'd put something resembling a footnote on it, seriously or otherwise ;) RadioKirk talk to me 22:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If you check his contributions, you'll see he only came here after I told him I'd block him if he didn't stop blanking every page linked to on my userpage. --InShaneee 22:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have put a last warning on his Talk page. If he continues to blank articles without prior discussion, he will be blocked. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I will attempt to discuss things first, but according to Radiokirk - who is an admin - I can remove anything that is not sourced. I don't know if you're an admin, but can you block me for removing unsourced material? --Candide, or Optimism 22:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

That is generally not true, however, if you're blanking entire articles. It is considered within process in those cases to tag them and take them to WP:AFD. Blanking an entire article (no matter the size) is akin to deletion, and only the janitors (admins) should be doing that kind of maintenance. RadioKirk talk to me 23:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Tokachu personal info posted

Tokachu has had 2 people post personal infomation about himself on his userpage, namely:

• Zzzz1111
• 85.105.236.154

His userpage is now protected.

I think that the revisions with the info should be deleted from the history as it is a violation of Wikipedia:Harassment -- Masterjamie 22:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Another question about sources

Someone wrote articles on some comicbooks. When I asked for sources, the user in question replied that the sources are the comicbooks themselves. That means that the user wrote an article about a comicbook using that same comicbook as a source. My question is: can the comicbook be used as a source for writing an article about the same comicbook? I thought that fell in No Original Research, as the author must himself interpret the comicbook in his article. The same thing goes with another movie article. The user wrote an article about a movie and said that the source for the article is the movie. Is that a valid source? --Candide, or Optimism 22:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

One wonders where such articles as Pulp Fiction sprang up from. One also wonders whether this is a pressing issue requiring the 'intervention' of 'administrators'. --InShaneee 22:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, good example! Can the article for Pulp Fiction use the movie as a source for the article? --Candide, or Optimism 23:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Anittas is blocked for 24 hours for disruption and trolling. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Presuming, Anittas, that you really do want to help the encyclopedia, may I suggest, rather than concentration on deletion, that you concentrate on improvement? RadioKirk talk to me 23:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)I love it. You misread my apology: I said if I have harmed anyone, however slight, as in however slight such harm may have been. If I hurt you at all, I'm sorry. Linuxbeak (drop me a line) 00:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)