Talk:Main Page

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Administrators: Clear all reports

Errors in the summary of the featured article

Please do not remove this invisible timestamp. See WT:ERRORS and WP:SUBSCRIBE. - Dank (push to talk) 01:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Errors with "In the news"

Olaf Scholz

• The German ruling coalition (Chancellor Olaf Scholz pictured) collapses over disagreements on economic policies.

The word "collapses" seems too strong as the linked article, 2024 German government crisis, does not use it. What it actually says is "...FDP effectively moved into the opposition, rendering the current coalition a two-party minority government." So, there's still a coalition but it has lost one of its members and so will continue as a minority government for now. Scholz is negotiating what happens next and it seems to be too soon to say exactly what that will be. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Indeed, I'm not even sure why this is in ITN given that the government is still very much in place. There will presumably be elections soon and we should post then.

  Also, when I first read this I thought it was Scholz himself who had collapsed. It's a poorly worded hook, given the presence of the photo caption in the middle, making it look like the Chancellor has had a mishap.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed, I'm not even sure why this is in ITN ...: Met WP:ITNSIGNIF:

  It is highly subjective whether an event is considered significant enough, and ultimately each event should be discussed on its own merits

  —Bagumba (talk) 05:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, the first two sources at the ITNC nom were "Scholz sets stage for German snap election as government collapses" and "Germany’s Coalition Collapses, Leaving the Government Teetering".—Bagumba (talk) 19:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Errors in "Did you know ..."

Current DYK

How can the lead paragraph of Carlton Colville Scouts Memorial, deemed good enough for placement on the main page, fail to say where it is located? And why is it so unclear in the article body as well, where mentions of a memorial lack wikilinks to its location? Echoedmyron (talk) 02:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixed by JennyOz :) in the future, Echoedmyron, DYK doesn't protect the pages it runs, so you're more than welcome to make any improvements you feel need to be made. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Next DYK

Meijer de Hond (nom)

The hook currently uses italics (''Volksrebbe'') to mark the Dutch-language term Volksrebbe. Per MOS:LANG, this should instead be {{lang|nl|Volksrebbe}}. jlwoodwa (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

 Done by @Schwede66 Sohom (talk) 05:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

@Schwede66: I restored the quotes that you removed. It seem like its italicized because its a foreign language, but quotes are also used as its referring to a nickname (MOS:QUOTENAME).—Bagumba (talk) 06:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

That's fine by me. I wasn't sure about the quotes and got dragged away from the computer the moment I had hit "save". Otherwise, I would have asked here. Schwede66 06:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Errors in "On this day"

Tomorrow's OTD

• Afzal Khan (d. 1659) - article has died 20 November and 10 November as the Julian date. JennyOz (talk) 07:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Errors in the summary of the featured list

Friday's FL

(November 15)

Monday's FL

(November 11, today)

Errors in the summary of the featured picture

Notice to administrators: When fixing POTD errors, please update the corresponding regular version (i.e. without "protected" in the page title) in addition to the Main Page version linked below.

General discussion

Main page redesign

The Main Page is looking more and more tired with each passing day. I know there have been discussions in the past that have not reached agreement. Is there any active discussion happening anywhere at the moment? 86.188.84.220 (talk) 03:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Not really. The last major discussion at Wikipedia:2014 main page redesign proposal appears to, like all others, have stalled with no consensus. Again, the major problem is that all these discussions eventually go all over the map, which leads the discussion to become unfocused and eventually no firm consensus. Zzyzx11 (talk) 01:08, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

We can add logo in header like in Russian Wikipedia. --Ochilov (talk) 12:34, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the Japanese and Arabic WPs look like that too. It's a good design. Eman235/talk 18:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't look all that different to me. And why would you put the logo in the header when the logo is already in the upper left corner right next to where the banner goes? --Khajidha (talk) 13:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

There is a redesign here, that served as a basis for further discussion, but too many people are simply afraid of change. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 23:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Featured article 12/15/14

Good to see the top level editors are apparently extremely childish. Of all the fascinating and informative articles in Wikipedia, this is what people are greeted with. Good job, you ever so clever winners. Geofferic ^T•_C✡ 09:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know. That's what we call "the last straw" for me. Though did we really expect something other than puerility on a site founded with porn money?

What is extremely childish about the article itself Geofferic? It's very well written and encyclopedic and covers a legitimate topic which is considered a "taboo" by people like yourself. I'd consider it less childish than a TFA on a videogame, put it that way. Yes, it's probably not an ideal time to TFA it during the fundraiser due the fact that many bizarrely are still offended by it but it is a legitimate article.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Interesting choice, throwing the word "Fuck" front and center for all main page visitors during the religious holiday season and during Wikipedia's biggest fundraiser of the year. I realize Wikipedia Isn't Censored, but does anyone around here know the difference between "I can" and "I should"? Townlake (talk) 00:08, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Personally I agree, but there was an extensive discussion about this before it was decided it would be posted. 331dot (talk) 00:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the background, 331. I don't so much mind that it was "featured", but the timing is juvenile and tasteless. Townlake (talk) 00:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I have no reason to believe that this was featured because of the season. It's just a mere coincidence. You can't just appeal to one religion and country. This is the English wikipedia, not the american wikipedia. Weegeerunner (talk) 20:56, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Which religious holiday are you so worried about that falls on December 15? Rreagan007 (talk) 16:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Not telling you this to persuade you of anything, but a bit of trivia may interest you. My family observes both Christian and Jewish traditions. We will begin celebrating Hanukkah the evening of December 16. Townlake (talk) 21:08, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That's the following day, though. And as you know, from a religious standpoint, Hanukkah is a relatively minor festival. It's taken on greater cultural significance largely as the Jewish answer to Christmas celebrations (for which I was grateful throughout my childhood, of course). —David Levy 22:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I just saw this. Let's see how many people never visit Wikipedia again after spotting that on the front page. --Biblioworm 00:15, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

As many as stayed away the last time the word was featured on the main page. Here's a link to the discussion at the time so people can avoid a rehash of the same debate.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Just FYI for anyone interested, the discussion can be found here. 331dot (talk) 00:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Another extraordinarily crass and stupid decision. The person or people responsible for this should have their permissions to edit the main page removed, and the task should be given to someone with better judgement. 86.152.160.175 (talk) 01:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Simmer down there. We are not here to insult and defile each other. Weegeerunner (talk) 20:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

A decision I support without any prudish opinion at all. I just knew the Outrage Corps. would rush here in a rush of panic, and I hope they are told to not get so flustered. doktorb _words^deeds 03:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Hate to bust your name-calling bubble, but my feelings don't put me in the "Outrage Corps." My feelings are more akin to when I hear 13-year olds swearing it up on a crowded subway train. Yeah, it's allowed, but come on, time and place. Townlake (talk) 04:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

And how do you get "swearing it up" from a book title? -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 05:12, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Read my post again, sport. Townlake (talk) 06:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Reading back through that discussion, it is difficult to believe that the result came up as 'Consensus to post'. The reasoning given lists the arguments then analyses all the arguments against and dismisses them one by one. No such analysis is done on the supporting arguments, despite a large fraction of them amounting to nothing other than WP:OTHERSTUFF. Indeed, the closer's own reasoning is also largely WP:OTHERSTUFF - we've done it before so we should do it again. GoldenRing (talk) 08:58, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I went straight to the talk page in anticipation of this thread as soon as I saw the featured article. Let's see: Something something think of the children something something. There, that about sums it up. Carry on. --WaltCip (talk) 04:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I find the discussion above a bit ironic considering the topic of the article... -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 05:12, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I have to admit: I was also extremely offended that this vulgar and disgusting featured article is on the main page during Zamenhof Day. The juvenile pruriency of Wikipedia has doubtlessly offended the dozens of Esperanto speakers worldwide.-RHM22 (talk) 05:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• I'm fully understanding of the whole "Wikipedia is not censored" concept. However, this is going to set off a whole pile of net nanny services/software and potentially get Wikipedia blocked from a whole pile of places where it would otherwise be permitted. Once blocked, it's hard to remove a site from those block lists, especially if one isn't an administrator on the system. Think libraries, schools and places of business where people may frequently visit Wikipedia. (It's a blocking word for searching for most of this software, and when it comes up in a page it will often block the whole relevant site.) Thanks guys, at a time when our readership is well down, I'm not sure we need this particular article on the main page. Risker (talk) 06:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That would be self censorship, which is almost as pernicious as censorship by others. We should not indulge in it. If someone is annoyed that Wikipedia has been blocked by their ISP's filters, then they should complain to the ISP about the filters, not Wikipedia. Modest Genius ^talk 13:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Balderdash. The article exists, it is well-written and covers the subject in depth. Nobody is prevented in any way from reading the article, should they wish. If their software permits, it will come up if they search the site for the term "fuck". There is no censorship involved at all. Common sense, though, says you don't put things on the main page that are likely to trigger net nannies. Incidentally, the same "net nanny" issue is at least part of the reason that we don't have the even worse fundraising full-screen-overlay banners that were discussed earlier. If the WMF can figure this out, so should we. Risker (talk) 16:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree. One thing I'd like to remind people is that WP:NOTCENSORED is not the focus of complaints about this from longstanding and good members of the community, so if you're citing that, there's a good chance that you haven't heard or understood the objection. I'm a very strong supporter of WP:NOTCENSORED and I'm also a very strong supporter of sensible, mature, and thoughtful editorial judgment. As Townlake said up above, "time and place" matter.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, are you saying that this is objectionable to you because of the time (during the holiday season) as well as its being featured on the main page? I can understand an objection based on the prominent appearance of the article, but the position that it's bad because we're ten days from Christmas seems a bit weak to me. (In case anyone isn't clear, my statement above about Zamenhof Day was meant as a response to this viewpoint.) Personally, I think it's unfair to say that a certain featured article that someone spent their time and effort improving should be permanently barred from TFA because it contains an offensive word. If I understand Risker's above point, then it seems as though Wikipedia should be blocked under those filtering methods regardless of what's on the main page. There are innumerable articles that contain vulgarities of all types, so if some filtering programs block the entire website, Wikipedia should already be 'blacklisted.' Apologies if I've misunderstood this, but I'm not familiar with those sorts of programs.-RHM22 (talk) 06:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

People would have to go to the page with the blockable word, and that would normally be prevented because they couldn't search for the word (the search is itself blocked). However, right now all they have to do is turn up on the main page. (If you enter "wikipedia.org" and then click "English", you wind up on the main page - so people could get blocked unintentionally.) Whatever happened to the WMF Board's direction on the principle of least astonishment? We sure took them seriously when they made decisions about fair use, why not this? Risker (talk) 06:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for the explanation. I understand the argument regarding the possibility of Wikipedia being blocked via parental filters, but how many other programs block Wikipedia on a daily basis for every sort of reason? Some or all of Wikipedia must be blocked by the Chinese firewall, for example, but we wouldn't even consider not featuring an article for that reason. There will always be disagreements regarding ideology. I'm not comfortable with any sort of censorship. It exists on German Wikipedia, and I think they're all the worse off for it.-RHM22 (talk) 07:14, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

As for me, I think there's no really good reason to put such things on the front page ever, but if we do, then during the holiday season and during the fundraising season strikes me as a particularly poor choice. Again I'll repeat what I've said already: this is about thoughtful and mature editorial judgment not about censorship.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

IMO, it is of concern that special concern is given to the fact that this is fundraising season. Should there really be a distinction? ☃ Unicodesnowman (talk) 10:51, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: For most parts of the world this is not a 'holiday season'. Please avoid the systemic bias of assuming that all readers are like you. Not everyone celebrates Christmas, and even less of them also have Thanksgiving to provide the other end of a 'season'. Even in places which celebrate Christmas most of them won't be on holiday until Christmas Eve or the day itself. Finally, even if there was a worldwide 'holiday season' (which would occupy almost 10% of the year) it should make no difference to our scheduling decisions. Similarly with our fund-raising activities, which are supposed to be entirely separate from editorial decisions on content. Modest Genius ^talk 15:08, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I saw the discussion regarding having this item on the main page, but it was closed before I got the opportunity to comment. I remember one of the main arguments was that it was several months since the last time the featured article contained a swear word. I wanted to pose the question then, but I'll mention it as a rhetorical now - when would repetition become too much? Once a month? Why not replace Friday's featured list with a "Fuck off Friday" collection of rude jokes? (By notable comedians of course) AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 06:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I was also considering about the sudden usage of the word on the Main Page. It might change people's mindset on using Wikipedia, especially parents who spot their children on Wikipedia's Main Page with the word would probably be shocked, although I don't know what they will do. I think the best thing to do is to just let it go, as the founder of Wikipedia stated, Wikipedia is not censored. However, it is really weird for the word to appear on the Main Page. I have to agree with the aforementioned fact. I was like, 'Woah, chill' and I was glad my parent(s) was not behind of me, but today is a weekday, and Wikipedia visitors should drop at weekdays, especially Mondays. I understand that the festive season might be here, but all featured articles should deserve a chance to be placed there. It's like, Fuck You (Lily Allen song)", "Bitch, Don't Kill My Vibe" and other articles which uses inappropriate words. DEW. Adrenaline (Nahnah4) 06:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, this is the second time in 2014 an article with "Fuck" in the title has been Today's Featured Article. I don't personally mind the word, but we all know it means something offensive, and we shouldn't actively goad people who are offended by it (particularly Wikipedia's educational partners). The percentage of FAs with "Fuck" in the title is disappearingly small; given where and when this article is appearing, as Jimbo noted at a parallel conversation at his talk page it's obvious there are some tone deafness issues in our project's TFA department. At some point, the community begs for WMF intervention by pulling silly stunts like this. Townlake (talk) 07:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I've also just remembered that the other rationale for it being featured today specifically was that it is the 223rd anniversary of the First Amendment being signed. That is a rather obscure number, and the anniversary is not mentioned anywhere on the page, so in retrospect it appears to be a flimsy excuse. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 08:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• It's no Gropecunt Lane. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• The fact that the article subject is a book specifically about prurience and word taboo nonsense in regards to the very word people are complaining about is a kind of irony you don't get to see very often. All of you complaining about it above are both hilarious and extremely depressing. If the word in question was something offensive and derogatory toward a group of people, then I would understand. I wouldn't want Niggers in the White House featured on the front page either. But Fuck is such a tepid word that literally just means sex. And it generally doesn't even mean that much anymore, more just a generalized expression of disdain or intensification of following words. Silverseren^C 10:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• You are, of course, entitled to your opinion about the meaning of fuck, but that is not shared by all(if it were, we wouldn't be talking about it). I accept that this has been posted, but the issue is not censorship, but editorial judgement and potential blocking of people from accessing Wikipedia, as well as poor timing during the holiday season. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be. Even Mr. Wales has expressed concern about this above. 331dot (talk) 10:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• We have NOTCENSORED as a policy for a reason. This right here is one of the exact reasons why it was made. Dealing with people that would like to pretend that such subjects don't exist in the real world. Also, believe me, Mr. Wales' opinion makes me even more against all of you, since time and again all he seems to care about is the image of Wikipedia and not its editors or the work that is done here. And the funny part is, it's not going to be taken down. And by the time anything close to a discussion comes of this, the 24 hours will be up for it being featured anyways, just like every other time people have complained here that sex exists. Which is why this is all a waste of time. Silverseren^C 10:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• The image of Wikipedia is a consideration. We want people to come here, not drive them away. To me NOTCENSORED means that the subject is not prohibited from Wikipedia or the words are not blocked out/redacted; it doesn't mean we need to advertise it on the main page for everyone to see. It's about judgement, not censorship. I am not calling for it to be taken down but people have legitimate good faith concerns here that don't have to do with censorship. 331dot (talk) 10:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• The point of NOTCENSORED is to express Wikipedia's impartiality. Wikipedia is meant to be as neutral as possible and that involves neutrally handling all articles and subjects and not treating then any differently. Censoring any article for any reason in any manner is a violation of that neutrality. Regardless of the material, it is all delegated in the manner as everything else is. Kinda like the controversy with the FBI seal back when the FBI was ticked off at us. Not running the seal when the article was submitted to DYK would have been a violation of that impartiality. And assuming bad faith on the part of the editor is also a no go. Oh, and in case you didn't know, that was also a situation where Jimbo cared more about how Wikipedia looked, and thus how he looked, than about the neutrality of Wikipedia, so he was trying to censor it passing DYK back then too. Silverseren^C 10:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• I am not assuming bad faith on the part of any editor; if I have suggested otherwise I apologize. I get that people have good reasons to post and support this but all reasons should be considered. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be; so no censorship means that no editorial judgements can be made? Everything or nothing? It isn't the black and white, yes/no matter you make it out to be. There are gray areas in all aspects of life. 331dot (talk) 10:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Not in regards to delegation and reviewing of material. Or, worded different, not for actions that are meant to be objective, not subjective. Black and white is very much the role needed for objective neutrality. Basically, that we are meant to be going through articles for promotion to places like DYK or Main Page not based on subjective opinions on their content. Silverseren^C 10:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Everything can be taken too far, including "objective neutrality". The main page is hard to avoid, especially the top of the main page. 331dot (talk) 10:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• The pearl-clutchers never disappoint. freshacconci talk to me 10:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
• Indeed, the TFA coordinator and others showed poor editorial judgment. The coordinator when he or she found weak "or" no consensus, should have made a better call. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
• My younger child found the main page very, very funny. Thincat (talk) 12:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
• It's not even a particularly offensive word to a great many people, though; its shock value has been reduced. However, this choice of TFA, yet again, just reinforces the stereotype of Wikipedia editors as some sort of basement-swelling Beavis and Butt-head characters ... "uh-huh-huh-huh ... he said Fuck"!! Pathetic, really. Black Kite (talk) 14:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

What I have said previously on similar occasions - perhaps there could be a 'vanilla/child-, library-, work- and someone peering over your shoulder at your device on public transport- safe' English Main Page and one that covers 'more exotic topics.' Thus both sides can be happy (and a broader range of 'MP pick and mix of topics you didn't know you wished to know about.' Jackiespeel (talk) 14:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That would never work, because the net nannies will never apply the "clean" page to their own settings. They would keep it on the uncensored one because faux moral outrage is what they want. Resolute 15:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The FA pages once had a director. Who was empowered by community RFC (over and over again) to make decisions so that things like this wouldn't happen. That is, the FA process was once known as "not a vote"; no matter how many "support" declarations, bad FAs weren't promoted.

Both the FA director and one of his delegates at the Today's Featured Article request page were chased off by the SAME (finally and eventually banned) sockmaster. With that sockmaster, by the way, when the director and I sought support from the arbs, we were silenced by a (now gone in disgrace) arb; it was not until after the FA pages had been assaulted for months that the community finally banned the sockmaster on other matters. As all of that happened, many editors, (FA-involved and otherwise) were either silent, or joined in support of the Merry Band of Socks chasing off the director (actually, in a deliberate breaching experiment regarding the scheduling of another TFA).

So, to anyone who was an active editor and did nothing when all of this was happening and is now here complaining: take your tomato. You're part of it.

If you were silent when socks chased off the FA director, this is where that ends. If that is so troubling to any of you, then go read the discussion of how we nowadays, in the absence of an FA director, appoint new coordinators empowered to decide what goes on the main page, not only TFA. (Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article#Notice of intention to stand to down as TFA coordinator).

And if you don't read the whole thing and weigh in, then please hold your tongue the next time you don't like a TFA selection. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry, Sandy, the fact that Raul isn't here any more is completely irrelevant to the fact that our editing corps (in this area, anyway) does not appear to be able to rise above the mentality of giggling teenagers. We should be better than that. Although it's no surprise that we're not. Black Kite (talk) 14:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• I can't characterize the topic as the mentality of giggling teenagers (maybe because I'm uninterested in even reading the thing), but I disagree that the absence of a director does not explain what is going on across the FA pages. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
• The opposing view is that featured articles like today's demonstrate Wikipedia's ability to cover sensitive subjects in a mature manner. Perhaps some are unable to view the word "fuck" – in a wholly academic, fact-based context – without "giggling", but that doesn't accurately describe those who wrote a high-quality encyclopedia article about a law professor's book. —David Levy 14:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• The content is irrelevant, really. Do you think this book would have had all the work done on it to promote it to FA had its title not included the first word? No, me neither. Black Kite (talk) 18:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• The same editor, who's active in the subject area (freedom of speech/censorship issues), invested precisely that much work in Freedom for the Thought That We Hate. —David Levy 19:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Which is very laudable. And as I said, it's a very good article. I'm still entirely unconvinced that this article would have ended up on the mainpage but for its title, though. I only have to read the TFA discussion to come to that opinion. Black Kite (talk) 19:19, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• You suggested that the article would not "have had all the work done on it to promote it to FA had its title not included the first word". The editor's history suggests otherwise. Certainly, he focuses on articles related to freedom of speech/censorship issues (which, for obvious reasons, are exceptionally likely to contain provocative language), but I see no evidence that he selected this one because the book's title contains the word "fuck". —David Levy 20:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• As you know, Sandy, I was among those who defended Raul and condemned the sockmaster's actions. But I'm baffled by your statment that Raul's role was "to make decisions so that things like this wouldn't happen." Things like what? The display of "objectionable" material at TFA? As opposed to the family-friendly articles that Raul scheduled, such as The Human Centipede (First Sequence) and the aforementioned Gropecunt Lane? —David Levy 14:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, I do know that. By "things like this wouldn't happen", I mean that the entire cadre of FA editors is implicated now as a "giggling teenager" group, and there is no one person where the buck stops. In the past, Raul was the "buck stops here" person. He put his balls on the line for the FA process, and had them chopped off-- chased out by a sockmaster. Now, it's the whole cadre of FA "giggling teenagers" that is accountable? Well, those FA "giggling teenagers" who didn't stand against a Merry Band of Sockmasters and their supporters should be held as accountable as they are ... and anyone who doesn't like this content on the mainpage, and hasn't weighed in on FA leadership discussions, should shut up or put up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• As I've commented elsewhere, you perceive distinctions that I don't.
  The above criticisms are no different from those that appeared here when Raul was the FA director. His decisions, like Bencherlite's, were based largely on community consensus – not that most aggrieved parties (then and now) know or care about the underlying infrastructure. —David Levy 15:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It's been a while since I've contributed actively, but I intend to return to FA and DYK. I had no idea that Raul was no longer active, and it saddens me to know that. I always viewed his contribution in a very positive light. However, like Mr. Levy above, I agree that he never 'stopped these things from happening.' I'm fairly certain that he would have elected to post the same article today, and I've no doubt that the same people who now call the TFA crew a bunch of "giggling teenagers" would still be doing so; if they're saying that in the first place, then the chances are that they don't really know how articles are promoted and featured anyway. I hope we never marginalize any contribution to Wikipedia.-RHM22 (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

RHM22, "the same people who now call the TFA crew a bunch of 'giggling teenagers'" would instead simply be calling for Raul's head, as they did frequently and loudly, claiming he was a "dictator". Until socks and supporters got his head. Point being, people were silent for years as the FA pages were under assault, they're silent now on how to appoint a new TFA person, and those who don't like what TFA puts on the main page, but have never spoken up in any FA page discussion, again-- should put up or shut up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:32, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Or alternatively the people closing such discussions should actually put themselves above the swathes of OMGNOTCENSORED children and say "hey, we're actually trying to present a serious encylopedia here, how about we try doing that?". Who is actually in charge of TFA is completely irrelevant to that. As I said above, this article, regardless of how good it is, would not be a TFA if it were not for its title - because no-one would care about it. And that's the difference. Black Kite (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is absolute crap. Do you honestly believe that someone spent hours improving an article and going through the FAR process because they thought it would be funny to one day possibly show a bad word on the main page? It's a fine scholarly article, on the subject of a book about the First Amendment. This is all in contrast to Gropecunt Lane, which was in fact expanded solely because of the humorous-sounding name, as mentioned elsewhere by another editor.-RHM22 (talk) 19:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say it wasn't a good article - it is. But have a look at how many FAs are on similar subjects and then ask yourself - why this one? See also the previous FA this year with "Fuck" in the title. Sorry - I don't believe it. As I say above, I don't care about the word; it's simply the view of Wikipedia that the casual viewer will get. (Not to mention the thousands of educational facilities that will have had the mainpage blocked today because their governments require a profanity filter for U-16s, but I'm sure no-one here really gives a shit about that either). Black Kite (talk) 19:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Most children 5 and older know this word, and know not to use it, because they don't like the taste of soap. A few days ago we had a picture of a yucky cancer on the home page. Some of our topics are horrible, but need to be taught. I'm much more shocked by a picture of a starving person at Holodomor than a didactic use of the word "fuck". Jehochman ^Talk 14:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• People complaining about childishness or about TFAR being full of "giggling teenagers" clearly have not read this article. And that tells me a great deal about how seriously I should take their opinions. Resolute 15:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Not too long ago there was another FA using the word "Fuck" in it. There is a clear bias at work when choosing FA's to put profanity on the main page. This is absurd and it needs to stop. The timing of this right before Christmas and during the fund-raiser is horrible. This selection almost surely harmed Wikipedia. This has nothing to do with being prudish or anything. Rejecting this as today's FA would have just been common sense. I'm actually curious about the fraction of FA's that contain profanity. I'll have to investigate this. Jason Quinn (talk) 16:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Two in a one-year period? It's not like there are that many FAs to choose from, and if people have written about a book called "Fuck" it's eligible. If it's so surely harmed WP, can we have some evidence please? Also, it's ten days until Christmas, so I don't see your problem there; how big a margin should we leave sanitised, and around what times? Hanukkah, Ramadan, Thanksgiving, Diwali, Easter, July 4th? Way to block out the year.

Don't worry about the fundraiser, though. The banner is so big it obscures the page! (On my computer at least.) BethNaught (talk) 17:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Two in one year is almost one percent. Do one percent of notable topics include the word "fuck" in them? Obviously not. Not obvious? Well, let's see, out of the 4,670,492 current articles in English, a search for "intitle:fuck" yields 136 results, that means about 0.002912% of notable articles have the word. This in turn means that a rate of 1% would be oversampling those articles by 350 times. You don't even to do the statistical test to see that the possibility of statistical anomaly would be rejected against a possibility of a selection bias. In other words, FA editors are picking articles with the word "fuck" in them for the sake of picking the word. It needs to stop. Jason Quinn (talk) 17:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually it's 0.54%. And it's their prerogative to choose what subjects to write about. Shouldn't we be happy people volunteer to write high-quality content? And again I would ask for evidence this is harming Wikipedia before I will listen to such alarmism. BethNaught (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Your statistical analysis would be valid if TFA were populated from Wikipedia's 6,909,002-article pool. By necessity, the selections are derived from the small pool of featured articles that haven't appeared on the main page. The two "fuck" articles, among others related to freedom of speech/censorship, were improved and nominated by an editor with a keen interest in that topic.

For the same reason, it isn't unusual for all sorts of subject areas to appear at TFA multiple times over the course of a year (at a frequency far exceeding their representation in the encyclopedia). And when people complain about seeing "too many articles" about birds, plants, video games, and whatever else, they're told the same thing. We can only work with the featured articles that we have, so editors can help to counter these skews by improving articles on topics of interest to them. —David Levy 19:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Based on the ratio of featured articles including the word 'fuck' in the title to those which do not, I reached a very rough 33% likelihood of an article featuring that word in the title to appear on the main page if the selection were completely random.-RHM22 (talk) 20:05, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

OMG, somebody said Fuck! Maybe we should work that article up to FA status. After all, it's such a versatile word, isn't it? For example, it can denote surprise (What the fuck was that bang?" [Mayor of Hiroshima, August 1945]) or puzzlement (Where the fuck is all that water coming from? [Captain of the Titanic, April 1912]). There are so many other examples. Mjroots (talk) 17:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Those who believe that TFA is immature for selecting the word as the featured article are themselves immature for failing to see the wider meaning behind the article and just seeing a "bad word". KonveyorBelt 21:32, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It's about decorum and respectability

The Project needs to represent itself with a certain level of decorum befitting the world's most popular online encyclopedia. Running a Featured Article that is essentially the F-bomb does not pass the smell test. If Wikipedia wants to be respected, it needs to act like an adult. Imagine if Presidente Obama went on TV and started throwing around the F word. Could he? Sure he could, technically. Should he? No, it would be a terrible idea, and I don't need to explain why. Or more to the point, imagine if the Gray Lady, the NY Times, ran a front page headline with the F-bomb in it. Could they? Sure, freedom of the press. But would they be particularly more or less respected and esteemed afterwards? Less. It's not about prudishness or phobia of the word, and it's not about WP:NOTCENSORED. It's about acting appropriately. Yes, Wikipedia is not censored, but we are not handcuffed by that one policy. And WP:NOTCENSORED sure as hell is not a mandate to feature profanity. I strongly disagree with any editor who insists on a course of action that results in Wikipedia featuring items like this in the name of protection of free speech or whatever similar intellectual libertarianist argument. Free speech is not remotely in danger here. And Wikipedia is not your personal vehicle for attempting to change the public's generally accepted idea of what is or is not generally proper conduct. What are you here to do—organize and share the world's information, or attempt to shock people and push your personal agenda on them? Darkest Tree Talk 18:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that nobody is "throwing the F word around". you've got to look at the context in which the word is being used, and it's a perfectly encyclopedic one. If Obama was addressing the f word in a critical context, looking at how it affects American society it would be a lot more respectable than if he went up to George W on live TV and called him a "fucking retard" wouldn't it? A lot of people might not like him saying the word but the context at least would be fairly appropriate if he addressed it critically. We're not telling people to eff off here now are we? And quite frankly the word is so ridiculously overused on the Internet and films etc that in 2014 no person should really be "shocked" at seeing its usage. We're not the BBC or an institution which follows a strict code. There is an argument that the main page could be censored of course, for some of the reasons that Risker mentioned, but we're not are we? The irony above all this is that the article itself addresses an issue which this very discussion has proved to be a notable one with divided opinion. The article is very relevant from a sociological viewpoint. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Why can't Wikipedia's editors assume the burden of knowing what's best for the little people on the side of class instead of crass? I believe a front page should be suitable for "all audiences", with shocking, in-your-face, "I'm twelve and you're not the boss of me" content profusely included in the pages where appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.153.238.90 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Darkest Tree. The editors have gone out of their way to offend and grab attention. Sorry I donated this year. It won't happen next year. Brted (talk) 21:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

No worries, WMF already has enough money :) BethNaught (talk) 21:58, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry that your monetary support was contingent upon Wikipedia restricting its main page's content to that which you find palatable. My support, conversely, is contingent upon Wikipedia's continued pursuit of neutrality. —David Levy 22:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think that neutrality, freedom of speech, or editorial liberty on WP is going to be the least bit endangered if we err on the side of caution when selecting Featured Articles that maybe don't include subjects or phrases that are generally considered offensive. Not because I am worried about people being offended per se, but because choosing this controversial material is not doing Wikipedia any favors. If you are framing your argument in terms of whether or not people will, or should, find the chosen subject "palatable," then you are probably seeking to shock and offend. There are places for pushing these boundaries, but IMO the main page and FA is not one of them. Think about, in general terms, how what we do on the main page is going to help or hurt the Project. Just because a legitimately controversial article exists does not obligate us to choose to feature it on the main page instead of an article or subject that is not "offensive." Darkest Tree Talk 00:17, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't seek to shock or offend. I object to the suppression of material from the main page on the basis that some people find it shocking or offensive (which describes far more than one might realize).

In some instances, Wikipedia editors have gone out of their way to cook up main page content for the purpose of pushing boundaries and proving that Wikipedia is not censored (e.g. scouring an article and cherry-picking the one fact that was tangentially related to an expletive, purely as an excuse to get that word into DYK). I oppose such actions unreservedly. —David Levy 00:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Hold on. Are we talking about selecting featured articles which is intended to be solely based on merit or today's featured article i.e. selecting what to appear on the main page from the pool of featured articles? From what I can tell even editors like Jimbo Wales, Black Kite and Risker aren't suggestion we avoid recognising an article meets our quality standards when it does just because it contains the word 'fuck'. Nil Einne (talk) 02:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, all of us were referring to TFA (on the main page). —David Levy 09:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we're only talking about what we choose to run as TFA on the main page. And David Levy, I understand where you're coming from. But I think some things are appropriate for the main page and others are not. It comes down to what are we trying to do. If the intent is to widen the exposure of a subject people generally find offensive, especially if it's already no secret that some people will be upset by it, then why do it? The only answer is because a group of someones has an agenda to try to change the way the public thinks about the subject, using Wikipedia. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, there are policies against that kind of thing. The main page is Wikipedia's face to the world. Should that be a face that says "fuck" when it can, or a face that has some self-control? (P.S. I'm not advocating the "suppression" of TFAs on, for example, controversial historical or political subjects. But when it comes to a book about the word fuck, or Gropecunt Lane (I remember that TFA), I think we can exercise some discretion). Darkest Tree Talk 17:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

If the intent is to avoid offending people, we will need to exclude controversial historical and sociopolitical subjects. I don't quite understand why the word "fuck" is more problematic in this respect than, say, a blurb about a murderer who "dismembered the body, boiled the flesh off the bones, and threw most of it into the River Thames, allegedly offering the fat to neighbours as dripping and lard." For some reason, that isn't the type of TFA that triggers these discussions.

There's also the issue of neutrality. Invariably, the idea is to cater to the "majority" of our readership. In other words, if material is widely considered objectionable within a minority group, too bad. We need to focus on what "reasonable people would find objectionable" (emphasis added, but otherwise an actual quotation from one of these debates). —David Levy 17:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Pee po belly bum drawers. Again. 80.3.72.207 (talk) 22:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• The TFA coordinator definitely made the right decision by running this. Wikipedia isn't censored, and it is an encyclopedia anyone can edit. Trying to put some "child-friendly" face on an encyclopedia full of disturbing things wouldn't be honest. We aren't going out of our way to be annoying; it's just that censorship is an issue and we should cover it. Wnt (talk) 00:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
  • You are plain wrong. The TFA coordinator made a very stupid decision. He or she is obviously incapable of exercising appropriate judgement and should be removed from his or her post. 86.136.150.146 ([[User

talk:86.136.150.146|talk]]) 00:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Please do not defile other Wikipedians. Weegeerunner (talk) 23:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

• • • WP:NOTCENSORED is not a mandate, again. And we are not "covering" anything: WP:NOTNEWS. And this is not the place to Right Great Wrongs WP:RGW if you think censorship is a problem in the world. It certainly is not a problem on Wikipedia. The further assertion that everyone visiting Wikipedia needs to have "disturbing things" shoved in their face just for coming to the site, like the examples Wnt linked to above, is, itself, disturbing. I don't need to be "educated" on the subjects you find "disturbing" just because I came here to look up an article on, say, state capitals. Get a sense of perspective for the breadth and depth of information on Wikipedia, and how the vast majority of users visit it for what is generally very neutral content. Darkest Tree Talk 00:31, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The saddest parts of these discussions is the people who seem to honestly believe that the thing was posted out of a juvenile desire to be offensive, as though that were the only conceivable explanation. What strange and sheltered lives these people must live if they think that anybody who claims to not think exactly like them is merely pretending to not think like them for the purpose of causing trouble. APL (talk) 00:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

FA 15 December part II

(break for ease of use)

My suggestion above was more to have the 'alternative or vanilla version' available for those who would prefer such things in a given context (and the present tutti-frutti version at other times): there could also be the jalapeno pepper version for those so inclined (and also US-centric/cute animal-centric and other version Main Pages). More people would be happy more of the time (and there would be more opportunities for good material to appear on some main page). Jackiespeel (talk) 16:55, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, vanilla is covered: http://www.conservapedia.com/ —Nelson Ricardo (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

'If that is vanilla I am a hedgehog' - a far wider range of 'inappropriate terms' on the main page than has probably appeared on en-WP MP since it began. (Not to mention some of the 'rearrangements.') Vanilla in the sense of 'no cause for comment (not even that there is 'an overload of [insert pet topics here])'.

The Vanilla homepage is www.wikipedia.org.

It's been there all along. It's a logo and a search box.

Of course, people who like to complain ignore it completely because it has absolutely nothing to complain about.

(Or worse, they'll come here to argue that what they really want is a mainpage that's full of content, but content always tailored to their particular set of beliefs and/or interests.) APL (talk) 00:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

There is going to be 'one thing on the main page' every few months that causes wailing and gnashing of teeth and reference to Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells (and whatever the WP equivalent of Mary Whitehouse happens to be) - and not always an obvious topic. Jackiespeel (talk) 23:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

WP users #know# that WP contains many articles on topics that annoy, offend or simply are of negative interest to them: and that they are likely to come across some of them by clicking on blue links/'looking up some obscure reference' etc. #But# this is a matter of choice/deliberate intent.

The Main Page is how WP presents itself to the English speaking world (and others who happen to be strolling through the various language main pages), and is likely to be accessed by people having a tea-break or otherwise in a context where certain topics are likely to cause discomfort (not everybody likes tea/coffee flavoured soggy biscuits) #however# well written or interesting the article. Most of these topics can be predicted and will cause the same, sometimes knee-jerk, reactions. There will also be an element of 'my taste/what annoys me, your taste/what annoys you.'

WP is not censored - but there has to be some compromise between 'totally vanilla' MP contents (the search box is not the same - the MP is, as I have said on occasion, useful for finding 'things you didn't know you wanted to know') and 'if it meets the good writing/notability etc standards carry on regardless publish and be damned.'

The trouble is - there is no consensus on where after 'er, what??' the 'appropriate for MP' boundary is - and if there were an en[1]WP page some people would go there just for the frisson. Jackiespeel (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The thing for me is that only so few people are actually being offended, if wikipedia gets so much traffic, then how come this page isn't being flooded with complaints? BallroomBlitzkriegBebop (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The problem for me is that the people who control content of the main page immediately point to some discussion now completed to justify their actions. The FA page and others dealing with selection of main page content are relatively obscure to the casual visitor. Hiding behind "we're not censored" is a cop out. The admins who control content are "so proud" of their decision that they left the offending word out of the recently featured line; that speaks volumes.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 23:09, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

That's interesting. According to this edit, that was an intentional decision made during the same discussion that decided to run the article as TFA. My own views on this are more to do with the choices people make on what articles to work on, but I'll say more on that separately. Carcharoth (talk) 00:29, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The links have been piped to avoid triggering keyword-based content filters on days when the article isn't TFA. This, of course, was covered in the discussion (which you might want to actually read, unless you prefer jumping to conclusions). —David Levy 03:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The thing that should be made clearer here is that both the article being discussed here (the book Fuck: Word Taboo and Protecting Our First Amendment Liberties), and the previous one (the documentary film Fuck) were brought to featured article standards by the same editor (User:Cirt). I raised this point in an amendment request made by Cirt back in March 2014 to an arbitration restriction he remains under. It is worth reading through the amendment request to see what Cirt said there about his motivations for working on this topic (you will need to also read what I said there, the comments Cirt is responding to). The issue was touched on there of niche topics versus broad ones. Cirt has also worked on other niche articles related to freedom of speech and censorship, some of which have also been featured. It is trivial to find articles in this topic area that have words in their titles that will generate the kind of debate seen here. It is also trivial to find articles in this topic area that don't generate that kind of debate. Cirt does work on both, but has he focused more on the articles that shock than the ones that don't? The jury may still be out on that, but I think a pattern is emerging. What is clear is that Cirt works on books and films about a niche area of freedom of speech and censorship, some of which have words in their titles that can shock when featured on Wikipedia's front page, and some that don't (e.g. Freedom for the Thought That We Hate and Not in Front of the Children: "Indecency," Censorship, and the Innocence of Youth). Cirt also nominates the articles to appear on Wikipedia's front page. Should the nomination of niche articles with 'shock' value worked on by the same author be encouraged or discouraged (remembering we are all ultimately volunteers)? Personally, I'd discourage it in favour of working on and nominating broader level topics with more educational value (e.g. the articles freedom of speech and censorship themselves), but I fear that Cirt may see some of the discussion here as an encouragement to work on another niche book or film article that will provoke a similar reaction. Whether that will happen, only time will tell. Carcharoth (talk) 01:50, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I think what is often misunderstood is that only featured articles can appear as TFA. Both examples listed above (Freedom of speech and Censorship) would be perfectly suitable, but they aren't featured articles. Anyone interested in promoting an article to featured status can certainly do so. Improve Fred Rogers, Thomas Bowdler or anything you so desire, promote it to featured status, then nominate it for a main page appearance. In fact, you don't even have to nominate it; many articles are plucked out (somewhat) randomly, with care taken to prevent a large amount of similar articles being featured in succession.-RHM22 (talk) 02:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

By the way, to be clear, I'm not referring to you, but to others who complain that more 'suitable' (but not featured) articles should appear on the main page. I know that you know that those two aren't currently featured. Many don't understand the way that articles are chosen, or don't care to.-RHM22 (talk) 03:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

That's an excellent point. Many (most?) readers are under the impression that "today's featured article" is simply an article that we've decided to "feature" today. It's common for people to ask why [non-featured article] wasn't scheduled for a particular date or why we picked [featured article] instead of running [non-featured article].

So it's easy to understand why they question the selection of an "offensive" topic from the 6,909,002-article pool that they believe exists for this purpose. —David Levy 03:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe that Cirt is motivated by a desire to get the word "fuck" onto the main page. The evidence suggests that he's simply creating, improving and nominating articles of interest to him. Given the subject matter, it isn't surprising that some of them have provocative titles (which, of course, the works' creators purposely chose in the hope of turning heads).

As you know, Wikipedia's editors are unpaid volunteers. When one invests the time and effort required to create a featured article – whether it's about a famous philosopher, a mushroom species, a hip hop album or a cartoon character – we should be grateful for his/her contributions. No one is under any obligation to edit anything, let alone to concentrate on articles that someone else deems worthy. —David Levy 03:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

It is certainly likely that an editor who acts to promote the Fuck documentary, and then turns around to promote the Fuck: . . . book on which the documentary comments is doing so to promote multiple repetitions. It is bad editorial judgement to do it on the main page nonetheless. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Basically:

'Some articles' meet the criteria of FA status but are on topics which are considered unsuitable to ever feature on the MP; other potential FAs are 'likely to generate much discussion because of words used, or particular topics (medical, war/violence/'bad taste' etc), and some are debate generators because of particular circumstances/they appear (possibly accidentally) in conjunction with other topics.

The debate is how to balance WP MP freedom of expression and 'the requirements of good taste, computer filters and tea breaks' in the latter two cases.

There are also going to be many articles that reach FA status and are unlikely to cause much debate (beyond 'this is the Xth article on subject Y in Z days') but for which there is no MP space - how can they be showcased? Would a 'FA showcase' which does not have the restrictions/constraints (of all kinds) of the Main Page get round the issues raised by this particular article? Jackiespeel (talk) 10:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

There actually is something wrong with the FA process, but it's not the lack of censorship. No, the real problem is that there is a huge preference for articles about narrow topic areas, specifically commercial products, while any general article faces much more resistance. An article like freedom of speech or cell (biology) or video game will never contain every possible reference about the parent topic; therefore it will never end up being called 'comprehensive' and 'stable' and put on the featured list. Instead we end up with articles about specific video games very, very frequently, a phenomenon that looks to me a lot like unpaid advertising. I wholeheartedly agree that Cirt deserves nothing but our congratulations for shepherding multiple articles through the FA gauntlet. I do wish though that there were a way that we could recognize the greater difficulty and scope of effort that can go into high-level general topic articles and give them a more reliable path toward featured status. Wnt (talk) 12:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

According to whom are certain topics "considered unsuitable to ever feature on the MP"? Upon whose standard of "good taste" are we to rely, and why? (Was "the requirements of good taste, computer filters and tea breaks" a quotation?) Where does "freedom of expression" (neither a constitutional right in this context nor part of Wikipedia's five pillars) enter the equation? —David Levy 12:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

There were a few articles that were (and maybe still are) essentially banned from the main page. I remember it being said about Jenna Jameson (no longer a featured article) that it would never appear on the main page, and there were a few others if memory serves. I never did agree with that, especially since the lede for Jameson isn't exceptionally prurient. If it were an article on one of the 'colorful' pornography titles, then I would be a little more sympathetic to the prohibition.-RHM22 (talk) 16:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

You're referring to a small list maintained by Raul654 (our former featured article director, who no longer participates in the process). It didn't fit Jackiespeel's description, as Raul explicitly stated that he compiled the list purely because he wanted to avoid the irritation of dealing with complaints, not because the articles were unsuitable for the main page. I believe that Jenna Jameson was the list's last remaining item. (Another – Wikipedia – was demoted long before Raul's departure.) I never fully understood his reasoning, as he scheduled articles that seemed far more "controversial". In any case, none of this is current. —David Levy 16:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I know that Raul's list is no longer around (I assumed that it went along with him), but I thought that may have been what Jackie was referring to above. Other than Jameson and the Wikipedia article you mentioned, I can't think of anything else at all that would be considered unsuitable, unless something has changed recently. I mentioned earlier that I haven't been active in a couple of years, so some things are different than I remember them.-RHM22 (talk) 16:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Understood. Indeed, Jackiespeel may have been thinking of Raul's list. —David Levy 16:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The Featured Article showcase sounds intriguing. I often wonder why the Main Page is being used as a Showcase Page in the first place. --Khajidha (talk) 14:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I was quoting myself making a general summary of possible reasons why a particular topic might be excluded from the Main Page: bad taste might include the Thatcher/Wicked Witch song controversy, computer filters (libraries, work places etc) tend to be finicky - and who 'doodling around while drinking a cup of tea' wants to see a 'very medical, war-event, high squick factor, or similar' image?

I do not know how practical a Featured Article showcase would be - but it would be one way of 'dealing with' Wikipedia:Featured articles that haven't been on the Main Page and could be run on slightly different lines to the Main Page (pages show for eg a week; former FAs; and can have themed selections etc). The intent would be to show WP articles at their best not to exclude them from the MP. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be thinking of something like a portal, of which we have many already, including Portal:Featured content which is linked on the left-hand side of every page, as well as broad-topic portals linked at the top of the main page. I don't see how having a different showcase-type page "deals with" WP:FANMP, though, or why we need to "deal with" it beyond it being the pot from which TFAs are chosen. Some FAs get to the main page more quickly than others, but that's inevitable unless we run a strict "first in first out" policy, which I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest for TFAs. Bencherlite^Talk 20:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Given that there are 'many more potential FAs' than days in several years to come, and that some of these articles are 'likely to generate much comment' (and the regular complaints about overemphasis on one area or another) trying to come up with suggestions that will satisfy the wishes of as many people as possible (including mine that there should be as many opportunities of 'finding things one did not know one wished to know more about.') 'Lists of headings' are not as inviting as 'pictures and text.'

We can't satisfy or even interest all the people all the time - we just have to find ways of maximizing the sum of WP happiness (and getting people involved) Jackiespeel (talk) 22:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Murica'

Today's FA? American. Today's FL? American. Today's FP? American. Outrageous. Time for ragged olde' England to retake the colonies me thinks. --86.166.155.196 (talk) 13:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, it is an American website operating on American servers with a majority of American editors. All those things you list take volunteer time and if there aren't enough UK editors to put the time in and get UK articles up to snuff to become an FA, are you suggesting subpar articles be promoted for the sake of "fairness"?freshacconci talk to me 15:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Note that each of those sections you mentioned operates independently from the others. From time to time you are bound to have this sort of coincidence. —howcheng {chat} 16:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

And the phenomenon isn't confined to any country in particular, confirmation bias notwithstanding. —David Levy 16:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

If it makes you feel any better, none of yesterday's featured items had anything to do with the U.S. Reach Out to the Truth 16:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

And right now the TFA is about some Australian soccer team. It also seems to me that UK articles show up on the main page on a regular basis. Most of them are about cricket players. Neutron (talk) 01:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Hanukkah

Hanukkah was supposed to included in today's OTD, but is currently omitted due to maintenance tags. I left a message at WT:JUDAISM but we could use more eyes to fix it up for re-inclusion. Thanks. —howcheng {chat} 06:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Featured article 12/16/2014

I need to register my disappointment and even disgust with the choice of featured article, the "509th Composite Group". We're glorifying the criminals here, and not giving a voice to any of the victims of the massacre. Who gives a single crap about what formation and equipment these guys were using when they nuked two cities? I find this showcase extremely offensive and at heart, a violation of NPOV, we are deploying the same strategy as the U.S. media has recently used in giving a platform to the CIA torturers and none to the people who were a victim of this horror. Here's an example of a healthy article about the nuclear bombings, which problematizes the lack of regret shown by the bomber crew. Here's another example of the POVs we forgot to mention, a survivor's story.

At least this poor decision might have one small positive outcome, that a few more people will be driven to get involved in the selection of featured articles... Adamw (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Why should we "problematize" the lack of guilt felt by the bombers? That would constitute insertion of a POV. There is plenty of information and criticism from people who oppose(d) the use of the bomb in other articles. This article is just about the bomber group, and not the lasting effects of radiation, civilian death tolls, etc.-RHM22 (talk) 16:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Take a look at Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That's a good article that does a fine job of giving the facts as well as opinions both for and against.-RHM22 (talk) 16:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The former TFA coordinator writes... I agree with RHM22's points. The issues you make are ones for other articles, not this one, and certainly are not reasons to disqualify this article from appearing as TFA. Appearance as TFA is not endorsement of any actions or views relating to the article itself, and in any event the articles will be written from a neutral point of view (because if not they would not obtain, or retain, featured status). I notice you have also complained at WT:TFA about the choice I made for tomorrow's TFA, Murder of Leigh Leigh. You are welcome to help with future nominations at WP:TFAR, either by commenting on suggestions made by other people or by finding something listed at WP:FANMP that you would like to see as the TFA and following the nomination instructions (which are set out at WP:TFAR and are very similar to DYK, for instance). And if someone can get Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki up to featured status before next August, it's a good candidate to appear on the 70th anniversary. Bencherlite^Talk 16:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Can I refer to my comment/the discussion 'slightly above' about a FA showcase 'or something similar.' Jackiespeel (talk) 17:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

+1 to Jackiespeel's suggestion that we create a separate venue for showcasing featured articles, perhaps the ones that stand up to the greater public scrutiny can be promoted to the front page. Adamw (talk) 19:22, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

We should problematize Hiroshima and Nagasaki because I think we can all agree, this was a terrorist act, a mass murder of innocent people for political gain, and should never be allowed to happen again, therefore it is a problem still requiring a solution.

NPOV should not mean we simply parrot existing highly opinionated reporting, IMO it means we should be applying critical thinking skills--and be very suspicious whenever there is a single narrative. This "509th" article is completely lacking in any self-reflection on its own POV, it's basically an embedded report on the lives of some military guys and their hardware. Don't be fooled--this is a POV! To me, the lack of any other POVs screams that there was very little consideration in choosing this article, (as I have said about the Murder of Leigh Leigh decision) and I wonder what value there is in displaying it as a TFA. Is this article a goal to aspire towards, bringing up one side of a horrific massacre, with no mention of the lives lost? Search for "death", "killed", or "lives lost", "people", or "Japanese" in the 509th article.

I don't care that this article exists, because someone might think these guys were really notable pilots, but promoting to a TFA was a blunder as far as I'm concerned.

Finally, I apologize that the subject makes me so heated, I really appreciate and respect the work the TFA crew is doing, and if I can find the time I would love to be a thorn in your side :) Perhaps the vitriol I am trying not to spill everywhere demonstrates why it might be a mistake to showcase controversial topics from suspect perspectives, without throwing a bone to the people it might offend.

Regards, Adamw (talk) 19:22, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

You will find that not everyone agrees that the atomic bombings of Japan were a "terrorist act", so your starting point for arguing that all articles relating to the topic should reflect that stance is fundamentally flawed and inconsistent with the neutral point of view principle at Wikipedia. Even "terrorist" is a word that can only be used with caution in articles - see WP:TERRORIST. Bencherlite^Talk 19:29, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the torture parallel holds up. Yes, the bombings were horrible, but so was the conventional bombing of Tokyo that imposed comparable, even greater, numbers of casualties. As war goes, these were military targets being struck for a military purpose, accomplishing the greatest of all military goals, an enforced peace. Now, is war horrible? Beyond question. Should it be avoided by all civilized people, no matter what? That is more a matter of debate; it is easy to have a pacifist faith in the face of the usual U.S. misadventure, but what do you do when there has been a World War like this one? Both sides were geared up for a long and terrible conflict, and close to considering biological and other unconventional warfare already, while prisoners endured terrible conditions. In the face of such things, unable to pronounce judgment on the world's behalf, we should be happy to allow an article that states the facts as they were to go through, and provide the relevant background with a cold dispassion. Wnt (talk) 20:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Featured article 12/18/2014

Might as well start this thread now since this TFA's release is imminent. Murder of Leigh Leigh looks like a well constructed article, but if the victim's parents or anyone who loves her is still alive, pushing this article as a highlighted main page article strikes me as a serious WP:BLP problem, let alone in generally poor taste around the holidays (a point that I realize the TFA leaders don't care about, but it needs to be said anyway). Townlake (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair to say "a point that I realize the TFA leaders don't care about", but do you 'spose all the folks concerned about TFA choices could take advantage of the page where you can make your choices known in advance? The page is moribund: to anyone complaining here, 'ya had your chance. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Most of us can't be in all places at all times. Townlake (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Most Wikipedians seem surprisingly unwilling to get involved in the discussions about what should go into the TFA section (or even get involved in discussions about who should be taking those decisions) even when particular discussions are heavily advertised and even though WP:TFAR is prominently linked in lots of places, including at the top of this talk page and in the edit notice every time one edits this talk page. Inevitably, decisions are made based on the views of those who turn up, and when nobody turns up with any suggestions (as happened for 53% of the days in 2014, because there were nominations for only 47% of the days - see WP:Today's featured article/TFAs in 2014) then I had to make my own decision about what to run. Throwing insults about TFA leaders not caring is - well, I'll let the many messages of thanks for my work over the last two years at WT:TFA and at my talk page since I announced my resignation speak for itself. Bencherlite^Talk 22:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again for a thankless job. Townlake, I agree most of us can't be in all places all the time, but the place is there if you care so much. It usually sits empty. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Complaining that no one objected in advance or suggested anything else does not make your wrong decision right. 109.157.10.232 (talk) 01:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Complaining that a decision was "wrong" doesn't make your belated objection helpful. —David Levy 02:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Calling a complaint belated and unhelpful because the complainer didn't monitor every step of every process at Wikipedia is just silly. At some point, as a society of volunteers and hopefully reasonable people, we have to be able to trust each other to do the right thing. TFA has been bankrupt in that department this week; it hasn't always been like this, hasn't always merited the attention it's drawn this week. Townlake (talk) 03:11, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

So ... now that you no longer "trust" the TFA team to "do the right thing", you're going to spend more time actively participating in the process going forward? (Possibly leaving other parts of the project in the "trust" of others?) 75.69.10.209 (talk) 05:31, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to turn my volunteer time here upside down to preach tact and common decency to a group of project participants who aren't interested in such matters. Clearly it would be a waste of time. Townlake (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Could you please try to remain WP:CIVIL on this: baselessly insulting the large group of editors isn't going to help get your point across, or make others want to see your point of view. - SchroCat (talk) 08:32, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I feel the TFA is just fine. I look at it quite frequently, so I thought I'd give my two cents here. There's no rule that the TFA has to fit with a particular season. Although it's nice to get a Christmas-y article for Christmas, there's a still a week until then. It's a bit unreasonable to have no possibly morbid or sad articles for the entire month, which is often considered part of the season. Most likely, the vast majority of viewers haven't had their Christmas next week ruined by an article about a murder, if they even celebrate Christmas or another holiday. As for issues of offense to living people, this can occur with a number of articles, such as events that people might have experienced, like a battle, accident, or other loss of life. We would be quite limited in our selection of TFAs if we had to consider this. I'm not sure if BLP applies, as the article is not making accusations against living people. I don't think it protects viewers from possibly finding the content emotionally charged. Regardless, it's a debate that requires longer discussion on a more formal basis, as it would indeed apply to many articles and possibly more than TFA. If it's supposed to be an unwritten rule, it should become more formally written. Scarlettail (talk) 05:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I respect that you -- and many others -- have a different point of view on this than I do. That said, there are a lot of strawmen in your post that I'm not interested in bickering about. I'll point out the Leigh Leigh article is not "an article about a murder" -- it's an article about the unusually gruesome rape and murder of a child, with plentiful blow-by-blow detail of the events of the victim's last night. Trivialize as you like, but let's not pretend that Wikipedia exists in a vacuum and its audience is limited to emotionless robots. Demonstrating a little humanity is OK sometimes, folks. Townlake (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

This holiday proximity stuff is just ludicrous. I could perhaps sympathize with your points if the article were about satanism, atheism or something like that (in other words, something that might strongly conflict with Christian sentiment in close proximity to the most important Christian holiday), but what sort of cushion must exist between any major religious holiday and a totally unrelated article that people may find disturbing? Often, relevant articles are TFA during major holidays. This year, it's Nativity (Christus).-RHM22 (talk) 07:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Only if you look at it from a Judeo-Christian point of view. Much of the world isn't Christian (let alone those in the "Christian" world that are agnotic or atheists) and we try and take a world view on such matters. Given that Christmas is still six days away, it's something of a straw man to say that we're running this article on Christmas. When should we have an exclusion zone on things-that-people-don't-want-to-hear-about? A week before Christmas? A fortnight, or possibly for all of December? io Saturnalia to one and all! - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)