Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities

Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

November 27

Katyn

Why did the Russians massacre the Poles if they were on the same side in WWII 24.92.78.167 (talk) 00:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

WOW. Dude -- Russia invaded Poland in 1939, just like Germany. 63.17.78.65 (talk) 13:06, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

They weren't at the start: see Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and other articles on WWII. I suspect that some (most?) Poles might say the Soviets were never really 'on their side'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

They had a common enemy, like the Finnish. 212.169.188.173 (talk) 02:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Pardon? Who did? When? You'll have to be more specific... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that the OP should obtain a copy of William Shirer's Rise and Fall of The Third Reich. It goes into great detail about the Polish issue and the pact Hitler made with Stalin (which was later broken as we all know). It's a lengthy book, but well worth the read.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Stalin was much more interested in destroying than preserving Poles who had strong nationalist sentiments (which in 1939 meant hating both Russians and Germans), and who might have become influential leaders. In 1944, he deliberately and intentionally refused to aid the Warsaw uprising in any way, and the red army watched from front-row seats right across the river as the Nazis destroyed Warsaw... AnonMoos (talk) 13:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I have the impression than in 2010, Poles still have "strong nationalist sentiments (which mean hating both Russians and Germans)". Quest09 (talk) 14:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course, after the massacre the Nazis used propaganda posters this one to take over France, before overrunning Poland and commiting their own Khatyn massacre against Byelorussian civillians. ~AH1^(TCU) 21:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Which queen is Elizabeth II?

When Queen Elizabeth II decides to honour someone with a knighthood, and the person is not a citizen of a Commonwealth realm, they get an honorary knighthood. They get to use whatever postnominal letters come with the knighthood (typically KBE) but they can't call themselves Sir. This much I understand.

My question is: who is bestowing the knighthood? The Queen is monarch of 16 different but equal realms, so which crown does she wear? I can see that where the honouree's achievements have been particularly associated with one of the 16 realms, she would wear that realm's crown, e.g. Bob Geldof has had much to do with the UK and precious little to do with Jamaica, Kenya, Tuvalu, New Zealand etc, so it's obvious the Queen of the UK was the one handing out his knighthood. But what if she wanted to knight, say, Nelson Mandela, who is considered a citizen of the world but not associated with any particular country more than any other, outside of South Africa. Why would it be the Queen of the UK doing the honours, rather than the Queen of Canada, or the Queen of Papua New Guinea, or ....  ? Some of the realms, such as Australia, no longer participate in the Imperial Honours system at all; but the Queen still has awards in her personal gift at her disposal, which don't require the acquiescence of any of her governments. When she, personally, is deciding to honour someone with such an award, is she always necessarily the Queen of the UK when doing so? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

This is strictly a personal view, but I would say that unless there is a significant precedent for her acting as Queen of XXX rather than Queen of England for an investiture, her default 'mode' would be Queen of England as that's her primary role/title, all others are secondary. Exxolon (talk) 04:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

That's completely untrue about her other titles being secondary. See Statute of Westminster 1931. (I'll let "Queen of England" go through to the keeper, for now.) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:36, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, but that's a law passed by the UK Parliament, which in principle could just as easily repeal it. Seems as though one of the realms is a little more equal than the others.... --Trovatore (talk) 08:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

It would have been interesting to see how the UK public would have reacted if William had picked a bride from, say, Tuvalu. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Exxolon's comments are also untrue in that the title "Queen of England" has not been in official use since 1707. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Trovatore, the Statute of Westminster applies to all 16 Commonwealth realms equally. It would require their unanimous agreement for it to be repealed, just as it required their unanimous agreement to permit Edward VIII to abdicate, and it would require their unanimous agreement to change any of the rules about the succession to the throne (e.g. permitting Catholics or spouses of Catholics to accede, or first-borns regardless of sex). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

How does that work? It's a law of the UK. It was passed in the parliament of the UK. It's not a treaty. If the UK parliament repeals it, in what venue would you challenge that action?

Now, I'm not saying that means you would then start paying attention to UK laws that claimed to apply to Australia; your own courts would presumably declare them null, and I don't see Britain going to war to enforce them. But for the Queen specifically? Face it, the Brits own her. She does what David Cameron tells her to do. If you don't like that (and I certainly wouldn't) you might take another look at republicanism. --Trovatore (talk) 19:56, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Statute of Westminster Adoption Act 1942. DuncanHill (talk) 19:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Don't see how that helps. If the British Parliament, just for example, repeals the 1931 law and then unilaterally changes the order of succession, what are the Aussies going to do about it? Certainly, they could decline to recognize the successor as their Sovereign (which, of course, is what I personally think they ought to do anyway). But they couldn't prevent Britain from doing so. It's just a statute; it doesn't even require a (purely British) supermajority to repeal. --Trovatore (talk) 20:13, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

As Australian law has been fully patriated, repeal of the Statute of Westminster by the UK parliament would not and could not effect the independence of Australia. You're suggesting a unilateral annexation - frankly, I'm not convinced that you're not trolling. Any change to the order of succession cannot come into effect without the consent of the other Commonwealth realms. DuncanHill (talk) 21:03, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe I'm being a little provocative. I don't like the monarchy much. It's a lot more tolerable now that it's all symbolic, but it still strikes me as less than ideal.

But no one has answered my point here. If the UK parliament decides to repeal the 1931 act, in order to change the order of succession, what stops them? That that might logically comport the "annexation of Australia" would presumably simply be ignored; to accomplish that in practice would require military force that I don't see the UK wanting to exercise, nor the world permitting. But if they decided to just skip over Charlie, or award the Kingship to Elton John, what are you going to do about it Down Under? Of course you don't have to recognize Elton I yourselves, but I can't see how you can stop Britain from doing so. --Trovatore (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Any of the 16 realms that attempt to go it alone in relation to the succession laws, without regard to the other 15, is breaking the compact. Such an attempt would not get past first base. If they persisted, they would be asking to be expelled from the Commonwealth, which could happen surprisingly quickly. They would be seen a rogue state by the international community. That's if their own people were on side, which is a huge ask in the first place. Why would the general UK populace countenance their nation becoming a pariah, just to satisfy the caprices of some nitwit in Whitehall? No, their respect for tradition and history and the monarchy and the status quo and all that would have the people up in arms against their own government if they ever tried anything so stupid as what you're suggesting. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

And let's suppose, that instead of privileging a decent but hardly revolutionary pop musician, they decided to do what I think they actually should do, and abolish the monarchy altogether? That you must allow they have the right to do (there was little question that Australia had the right a while back. But once it was no longer their monarch, presumably they would no longer want to pay the bills. What happens then? Do you invite Liz or Charlie to set up shop in Canberra? --Trovatore (talk) 21:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

What Australia did was to have a referendum on whether or not we wanted to become a republic. It had nothing to do with abolishing anything. It had to do with us severing ourselves from the monarchy and establishing the office of President of Australia as our head of state. Had we gone that way, the remaining 15 realms would have continued to have the monarchy, unaffected by Australia's decision.

But no, I do not allow that the UK has the right to unilaterally abolish their own monarchy. They could do it only if the 16 Commonwealth realms unanimously decided to go this way, all at the same time. The UK is just as much subject to the Statue of Westminster as any of the other realms are. But if a rogue UK PM decided to test the waters and started talking about abolishing the monarchy, he or she would be quickly silenced by their own party, and if they persisted, they'd be unceremoniously and swiftly deposed by their party. For that not to happen, the party platform would have to include the abolition of the monarchy, and they wouldn't have been elected to power in the first place unless the general populace were in favour of abolition, which they're not. But even if they were, the UK still cannot go it alone, because they "own" only 1/16th of the crown. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:01, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand your point here. You say that Australia held a referendum on severing itself from the Australian monarchy, and then you say that the UK cannot become a republic without the consent of all other Commonwealth realms. Is there really anything (in theory) preventing the UK from becoming a republic while (say) Canada continues as a monarchy, which doesn't prevent Canada becoming a republic while the UK remains a monarchy? (And by the way, the UK doesn't "own" 1/16th of the crown: there are sixteen The Crowns, one for each realm. That's a large part of the point of the Statute of Westminster.) Marnanel (talk) 16:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No, you've twisted my words. I never said the UK cannot decide to become a republic - of course it could, that's entirely their business, just as it was Australia's business to consider such a move in 1999. Should the UK do so, they would sever themselves from the joint monarchy and the Queen would continue to reign over the remaining realms. As Trovatore alluded earlier, the Royal Family would probably need to relocate to somewhere where the Queen is still recognised as head of state. What I said was, was that the UK cannot unilaterally abolish the monarchy. Nor could any of the 16 realms unilaterally abolish the monarchy. Any changes to how the monarchy works must be agreed unanimously by all 16 realms, but any realm can opt out of the club completely. It's a bit like, any country that's currently a member of the UN could decide to cancel its own membership but it could not unilaterally change the rules about how the UN is organised and run. (I know there are 16 crowns, I was just trying to explain a point using an analogy.)-- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Have to ask: can't abolish which monarchy? I think the argument here is confusion of terms. I think we can all agree that the UK has full rights to abolish the British monarchy whenever they want, without consultation of other Commonwealth members, however unlikely that may be. However, regardless of what happens to the British monarchy, the Australian, Canadian, Bahamian, etc. monarchies continue unperturbed. (Assuming, of course, that newly-republic UK doesn't have James Bond track down and assassinate all of Sophia of Hannover's descendants.) -- 174.24.198.158 (talk) 20:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Speak for yourself. I do not agree that the UK has a right to unilaterally abolish the British monarchy, as explained above. It's not even a question of right - it's actually impossible. The Statue of Westminster prevents them from doing so, because any so-called action taken without the concurrence of all the other realms is inherently null and void. The action/change has to apply to all the realms, and simultaneously, or to none of them. Doing something to the monarchy (such as abolishing it) is not the same as divorcing the nation from it. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Jack, this whole thread started when you asked *which Queen* bestows the honour. From this I can surmise that you understand that "The Queen of Britain" and "The Queen of Australia" are distinct, despite the fact that they're both the same person (per the Statute of Westminster). My question to you: which monarchy does the Queen of Australia belong to? - I'm presenting the perspective that "the British Monarchy" and "the Australian Monarchy" are distinct (although, per the Statute of Westminster, the same). If the UK becomes a republic, the British Monarchy will no longer exist, by definition: republics don't have monarchs. In other words, by voting to become a republic, the UK parliament will have "abolished" the British monarchy. However, the UK parliament is powerless to unilaterally alter the other 15 monarchies of the Commonwealth realms, and regardless of what happens to the British Monarchy, the Windsors will retain their standing as the hereditary heirs to the Australian Monarchy, the Canadian Monarchy, etc. -- 174.24.198.158 (talk) 01:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Scenario A: The UK chooses to become a republic, which also means that it has just chosen to abandon its monarchy.

Scenario B: The UK chooses to abolish its monarchy, which also means that it has just chosen to become a republic.

These look like the same thing, just expressed slightly differently. You can't have a republic that's a monarchy, because a republic is defined as a nation without a monarchy. But are they the same thing? I appreciate the distinction between the British Monarchy and the Australian Monarchy and the St Kitts and Nevis Monarchy and all the rest. They are distinct entities at law; but not so distinct that any change to one of them doesn't affect all the others. And not only affect all the others, but the change is exactly duplicated in all the others. The Statute of Westminster forces all the separate monarchies to be identical at all times. In the case of most monarchies (Denmark, Netherlands, Thailand, Tonga, Swaziland ...), abandoning the monarchy and abolishing the monarchy are the same thing. But in the UK/Commonwealth case, they're not. Any of the 16 realms can abandon its monarchy: Australia would have done so had our 1999 referendum passed. And an abandoned monarchy ceases to exist because a king without a country cannot be. But none of them can abolish the monarchy outright, not unless all 16 realms choose to do so. As far as Joe Bloggs on the street is concerned, does this distinction between abandoning and abolishing matter a tinker's cuss? Probably not. But it's not just semantics for its own sake either. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

[1] Nil Einne (talk) 20:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Trovatore, the PM of the UK advises (= commands) the Queen of the UK in relation to UK affairs and UK affairs alone. The PM of Australia advises (= commands) the Queen of Australia in relation to Australian affairs and Australian affairs alone. The PM of Canada advises (= commands) the Queen of Canada in relation to Canadian affairs and Canadian affairs alone. Get the picture? This was the whole point of the Statute. The 16 realms are separate and equal, none subservient to any other. There was talk back in the Thatcher era of the UK being expelled from the Commonwealth, which is no more constitutionally unbelievable than the expulsion of Zimbabwe, Fiji or Pakistan. The Queen herself is usually seen as most associated with the UK realm, as she resides there (well, she has to live somewhere) and the Commonwealth evolved out of UK history. But that has nothing to do with the equality of the realms. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:19, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

And if the UK parliament repeals the statute, I ask again, in what venue is Australia going to challenge that action? --Trovatore (talk) 20:23, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

We're now in the realm of the hyper-hypothetical, but that could be seen as an act of aggression. Repealing the Statute would have the effect of the British Parliament re-asserting its authority over the "Dominion" parliaments, effectively purporting to re-colonise the realms all over again. Wars have started over less. How would the USA feel if the UK Parliament reasserted it still owned the 13 American colonies, tore up its peace treaty, and resumes taxing them? Hmm? Same with us. It's never going to happen. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you'd go to war to prevent the British parliament from imposing British law in Australia. But over, for example, changing the order of succession? I frankly doubt it. But in any case the situations are not really parallel, because the American War of Independence ended with an actual treaty, binding under international law, the Treaty of Paris (1783). It was not a simple statute, passed by a majority in the House of Commons. --Trovatore (talk) 20:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

But it's all part and parcel of the same thing. Repeal of the Statute would purport to have the effect of the UK reasserting its right to impose British law on Australia, just as it would purport to remove our right to have a say about any changes to the succession laws. Also, it would be in conflict with the Australia Act 1986. Like Duncan above, I can't see what point you're trying to make here, Trovatore, but it's going nowhere fast. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

A UK repeal of the Statute of Westminster would have no effect on Australia. The Statute of Westminster, once it was received by each of the realms, became part of the law of each individual jurisdiction. So there are as many different and separate Statutes of Westminster as there are realms that received it. Each of them can then deal with that piece of law at will so that, as a matter of law, there could be a dozen different versions of the Statute of Westminster in force in different realms.

It is only out of convention that the realms cooperate on constitutional matters. There is no legal impediment to their choosing not to do so. Australia has amended its Constitution several times since it was passed as legislation by the Imperial parliament. This has only changed the version of the Constitution as in force in Australia, it does not change the version on the statute books of the UK. Likewise, if the UK parliament were to amend the Constitution of Australia, it would be perfectly competent to do so, but only with respect to the UK statute. There would be no effect on the version in force in Australia.

That, more or less, was the point of the Statute of Westminster (and suplementary legislation like the Australia Acts). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The article on Orders, decorations, and medals of Australia says: "The Queen does still confer honours upon Australians that emanate from her personally rather than through the government, in particular the Order of the Garter..., The Order of the Thistle..., the Order of Merit..., the Royal Victorian Order..., and the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem...." The same principle would apply in other Commonwealth countries, although the way that the Royal Prerogative operates apparently varies between the different realms. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Right, but I'm talking about honours and awards beng bestowed upon people who are not citizens of any of her realms. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:03, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I remember going online trying to find the New Year Honours List a couple of years ago, and finding that it was published by the UK government rather than by some office of the royal court. Also, for example New Zealand has its own New Year Honours list, for the knighthoods and postnominals handed out by the Queen as Queen of New Zealand. Presumably, when honorary knighthoods are announced they are one one of the lists, and that should reveal which crown that particular KBE is associated with. Or, are the honorary titles announced completely separately, directly from the court? (Geldof's honour seems to be too long ago for me to be able to find a proper source of how it was announced) /Coffeeshivers (talk) 13:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Ted Kennedy's KBE was certainly recommended by the Government of the UK; the one which has davalued everything. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, I think it's rather clever to get a prominent IRA fundraiser to accept a KBE. DuncanHill (talk) 13:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Coffeeshivers, I was somewhat diverted. I think you're right - the relevant government would promulgate the honorary awards. Honorary Imperial knighthoods would only ever occur with the agreement of a Commonwealth realm government that was still participating in the Imperial Honours system, which cuts out a few. I'd be interested to find a live case of an honorary knighthood in one of the British orders such the Order of the British Empire, the Order of the Bath or the Order of St Michael and St George, that was awarded by Elizabeth II as Queen of somewhere other than the UK. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

There *is* the official position of Head of the Commonwealth, which is part of her official style. For example, the charter for the Venerable Order of Saint John, as linked in that article, uses her style as the British sovereign, including the Head of the Commonwealth bit. That said, if the honor is a personal gift, it might not technically be granted by "The Queen of X" (for any X) at all, but by the person of Elizabeth II herself, and is simply recognized as being official by country X, simply because Elizabeth II is "The Queen of X". (That is, Australia recognized the granting of an OM as valid because Elizabeth II is Queen of Australia, but Canada recognizes the same award as valid because she's Queen of Canada.) Sort of in the same sense that Crown Estate is property owned by the Queen-as-position, but Elizabeth II also owns property personally (e.g. Sandringham House and Balmoral Castle). -- 174.24.198.158 (talk) 19:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I can see what you're getting at. When the Queen makes an award in her personal gift, she is still doing so as the Queen of one of her realms. She is not acting as a private citizen (that's if she even is a citizen), because it's only monarchs who are the fount of honour, not private citizens. I even wonder if she can ever do anything as a private person, divorced from her queen-ness. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

You mean she goes to the toilet as a queen rather then a private person? Nil Einne (talk) 20:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't really thinking that she was doing it as a private citizen, but more-so as a generalized royal. That is, acting as Elizabeth II Regina herself, rather than the person exercising the position "The Queen of X". Another option is that she's acting as all monarchs simultaneously. That is, to an Australian, she gives the OM as the Queen of Australia, but to a Canadian, she's acting, at the very same moment, as the Queen of Canada. If I had to guess, though, I would imagine she would be acting under the role through which the honour was chartered. For example, the Venerable Order of Saint John is chartered under the name of "Elizabeth the Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen ... ", so when she appoints someone to the Order of Saint John, she does so as "Elizabeth the Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen ... " (e.g. as the British Queen, rather than the Canadian Queen or the Australian Queen. -- 174.24.198.158 (talk) 21:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I've been coming to the same conclusion. Australia no longer has the level of Knight/Dame of the Order of Australia, but if we did, and we wanted to honour Barack Obama, for example, it would be the Queen of Australia bestowing it. New Zealand has restored its knighthoods recently, and an honorary NZ knighthood would be bestowed by the Queen of New Zealand. So, it comes down to which country established the award itself as to which queen awards it. Seems pretty sensible, really, wheh I think about it. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Royal Surnames

Why does it seem that a lot of people believe that royalty can't have surnames? The nobilities of Italy and the imperial families of the Byzantine, Russian and Chinese empires used surnames. Also there were the Stuarts, the Tudors, and the Plantagenet. But are the "de Bourbon", "de France", and "de Borbon y de (mother's house name" considered surnames?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 04:30, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe Bourbon was considered a surname as Marie Antoinette was called Madame Capet at her trial.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The Emperors of Japan famously don't have surnames or dynastic names even though in the pasr there have been two claiments for the throne with different lines of descent. Alansplodge (talk) 13:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I suppose royalty could have surnames. They historically did not have them, however. The use of "Louis Capet" for "Louis XVI" was an intentional attempt to make Louis equal to all other French citizens, in the use of a surname. What the French Revolutionaries were doing was pointing out that the Royals don't use surnames by forcing Louis to have one. It was an act of deliberate insubordination. There are a variety of ways to disambiguate royalty, from ordinal roman numerals, to nicknames or appelations like "Henry Bolingbroke" or "Edward Longshanks" or "Charles the Fat", to use of house or dynasty names, like "de Bourbon" or "of Lancaster", but these are not surnames, just descriptive names of their royal house. --Jayron32 13:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Our own Royal Family certainly use "Windsor" as a surname. Descendants who don't have ducal titles end up with "Windsor" as their last name, such as Lord Nicholas Windsor. Alansplodge (talk) 14:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Isn't Prince Charles' surname Mountbatten? I also read that William and Harry's surnames were Wales.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

See House of Windsor and Mountbatten-Windsor for further confusion explanation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

When he ascends the throne, the House will be likely changed to Mountbatten or whatever he chooses. GoodDay (talk) 00:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you have to be just a little careful how you use the term surname. In contemporary English, we use that term as a synonym of family name, but that's not the original meaning, esp when talking about royalty. One of the Henrys was surnamed Plantagenet, for example, but it wasn't (at least originally) a family name. It was more like a nickname. --Trovatore (talk) 00:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Since this seems to be done by royal proclamation, I reckon he could retitle it the House of Fish and Chips if he felt like it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

But what about the way the Spanish and Portuguese royal families use there Royal House names in there name which is just like Hispanic surnames. Like Juan Carlos Alfonso Víctor María de Borbón y Borbón-Dos Sicilias.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the British royal family really Guelph? Corvus cornix_talk 04:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

From House of Welf: [George I] inherited the British throne in 1714 as a result of the Act of Settlement 1701. Members of the Welf dynasty continued to rule Great Britain until the death of Queen Victoria in 1901; in Britain they were known as the House of Hanover.

Victoria’s successor Edward VII was the first king of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, which was changed in 1917 to the House of Windsor.

So, no, the British Royal Family is not really Guelph and has not been for the past 109 years. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:25, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The Russian royals did not have surnames. They were officially known by their first name and patronimic. --Ghirla^-трёп- 14:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Most sexually conservative Europeans

Which European people would be considered the most sexually conservative today or at least within the last 50 years? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:32, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess Silvio Berlusconi would be one of those least likley to gain the title. How about Mary Whitehouse? Daicaregos (talk) 08:54, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Just guessing, but I think Jeanne may have meant nationalities rather than specific individuals.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. The reason I didn't say nations was that many countries such as Italy is made up of regions that vary greatly from one another such as Sicily and Lombardy.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:01, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

....not to mention the Vatican people.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we have a winner. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The inhabitants of the Vatican seem tolerant of some very extreme sexual behaviours. DuncanHill (talk) 12:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. No Sex Please, We're British. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:23, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we'd need to know what was meant by 'conservative'. Position? Location? Duration? To me, the phrase brings to mind the affair between John Major and Edwina Currie. Not a happy thought.

Seriously though, I think that Jeanne needs to phrase the question in more precise terms. In any case, what is considered 'conservative' in one part of Europe may not be in another. I'm sure I've seen statistics somewhere comparing e.g. number of sexual partners amongst populations in different parts of the world, though the data may be somewhat suspect. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:11, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Its not the British, as we have the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe. Besides, the populations to fill the colonies didnt come from nowhere. You might be able to estimate this from the proportion of unmarried mothers as well as pregnancy rates. Italy, with the lowest birth rate in the world (?) could be the most conservative. I'm not sure if the amount of sexual activity has a positive or negative correlation with the amount of pornography consumed. The liberal laws of the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries would rule them out. Depends if you mean by activity or by attitude. 92.15.11.45 (talk) 14:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

What I meant by conservative is not the nudity shown on tv, in which case Italy would be easily be the most permissive; but rather the attitude towards unmarried mothers, divorce, women's sexuality in general, and gay marriage. Italy (especially the south), which is strongly against gay marriage, condemns infidelity in women, regards divorced women as puttane (sluts), would probably be the most conservative IMO. In fact, last year there was a spate of vicious homophobic attacks on gays, and this occurred in Rome!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Such attacks also happen in Eastern Europe from time to time. Moscow, Belgrade, etc Flamarande (talk) 18:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm how about Turkey? Nil Einne (talk) 17:33, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

[2] may be of interest here although over 10 years old. While I've only had a glance at it, it looks to me like Northern Ireland may be our 'winner' for the European countries surveyed (which does include Italy but doesn't include Turkey).Nil Einne (talk) 17:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's be honest here. Turkey isn't an European country in this aspect ('European' as in cultural values). Its culture is strongly influenced by Islam unlike all European countries (with the possible exception of Albania). I do know that the Istambul holds a substantial portion of the Turkish population and that they have been influenced by European culture in many aspects but there are irregular honor killings where the male relatives kill the woman found "guilty" of shaming the "family's honour" (some of those happen in Germany where a substantial Turkish population exists). Such murders may also happen in exceptional circumstances in European cultures but there they are more the exceptions which prove the rule. Flamarande (talk) 18:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Besides, the populations to fill the colonies didnt come from nowhere - the subdued native populace needed something to do on a Saturday night too. It's not as if the British happened to find lands that were devoid of human life (terra nullius) and just populated them with pink British babies. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:38, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Honour killings still take palce in Sicily and Calabria. Recently a brother in Calabria killed his sister for having a kid outside matrimony. I live in Sicily and many of the men will beat up their sisters and sisters-in-law if they catch them cheating on their husbands. Ironically, abortion is very high in Italy. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

That isn't irony but simple and common results of hipocrisy (couples are too ashamed to buy condoms or the pill fearing the censoring and gossip of their neighbors - especially in more rural and poorer areas. Abortions are the sad result). I also knew that women have been murdered in the south of Italy (but AFAIK these are true exceptions - I may be honestly mistaken). However I believe that as a rule honour killings are far more common among Turks than Italians. "Oldfashioned wife-beating", while horrendous to the majority, is de facto uncommon but not unknown in southern Latin Europe (things are changing but all too slowly). AFAIK most of Europe is more or less liberal about sex of unmarried ppl (unlike Turkey). Either way I think that we can and should agree that Turkey with a diffrent religious background and a diffrent historical approach (Christianity vs Islam) is simply diffrent from European countries. Flamarande (talk) 20:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC) PS: You could improve the article Honor killing if you wish.

Turkey cannot be "[different] from European countries", as a significant part of it is in Europe. Please don't misuse the reference desk to push an irrelevant POV on a sensitive subject. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Please read what I wrote above: ('European' as in cultural values). You seem to be seeing this issue only in pure geographical terms (and the "significant" European part of Turkey is more or less 3% of the whole country). However you seem to be ignoring that, like or not, the overwhelming majority of the Turkish population has a diffrent religion than the "rest" of Europe (with the exception of Albania). AFAIK the religious background of a country affects the culture of the people of a country. So forgive me for not exactly buying your statement that: "Turkey cannot be different from [the other] European countries." The overwhelming majority of Turks have a muslim background, while the overwhelming majority of Europeans aren't. Like it or not, the religion of a people affects the way they deal with issues like sex (creating some important diffrences). You might not like to deal with this sensitive issue, but this isn't an irrelevant POV. Flamarande (talk) 21:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't write Turkey cannot be different from [the other] European countries. this would be stupid, as each European country is different. I Wrote Turkey cannot be "[different] from European countries", as a significant part of it is in Europe, which is a statement of fact. And Turkey's 'cultural values' are likewise partly European, because Turkey is partly in Europe: again, a statement of fact. Turkey may not be predominantly Christian (though note that politically it is a secular constitutional republic), but the question was about Europe, not about Christian countries in Europe. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:36, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Flamarande, do you actually have some statistics on Turkish attitudes towards sex between unamrried people in particular so we can compare them to places like Northern Ireland? While I was the one who suggested Turkey, this was just a suggestion, from the way you are talking it sounds like you actually have some better evidence showing Turkey is definitely more conservative (on average) when it comes to sex between unmarried people. Also from Religion in Bosnia and Herzegovina Muslims are 45% of the population (although the level of religious observence in Bosnias for all religions is generally low) so I don't know if it's accurate to say the rest of Europe except Albania follows a different religion. Nil Einne (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

If they're practicing celibacy (which they're supposed to be)? Vatican residents are the least sexually active. Ya can't get more conservative then that. GoodDay (talk) 00:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that last statement is questionable. For example, if we have a person who's celibate for whatever reason but thinks there's nothing wrong with people having sex with whoever and whenever they want at any age and regardless of marital status of any parties involved and that women can or even should want to be part of that. Vs a married (for life as all marriages should be as far as they are concerned) man who has sex (as most married people do), but without concern for what their wife wants (she's a woman so it doesn't matter) but considers any sex outside marriage, sex between people of the same sex etc all horrible, horrible crimes and any perpetrators should be put to death (particularly the any women and gay men). I would consider the later person to be more sexually conservative. From what the OP has said, my feeling is they would agree with me. Nil Einne (talk) 17:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The idea that most married people have sex without concern for the wife's desires is a bit depressing. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:31, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I've rearranged my wording for clarification. Nil Einne (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Albanians? 92.24.189.188 (talk) 00:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Selves that argue within oneself - illusion or not?

I have some long dreary work to do that I can easily put off. My Bossy-Self says that I ought to march off and do it as soon as possible, working twelve hours a day on it until finished. My Lazy-Self dosnt want to do it, keeps putting it off. I only make progress by promising myself a treat after doing some work, or that I'll only do it for an hour or two and then stop work for today.

Why do I appear to have two selves that are in conflict - Bossy-Self and Lazy-Self? Surely I should only have one self? Thanks 92.15.11.45 (talk) 15:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

You don't have two selves. From one moment to the next, you exist, and your existence involves all the things you do and think, plus all the things your body does autonomically. There is no "elsewhere" where "you" exist independently of the things you and your body do. To say you have two "selves" is to ignore the fact that you exist in time in the physical universe, and that any other definition of "existence" is illusory (where and when would it be?). As for why you "appear" to "have two selves that are in conflict," it is because you are confusing mental deliberation with being. Anyone can deliberate endlessly, from any number of perspectives -- but the deliberations all occur in the moment of time, in the physical place, when and where you are acting/thinking/being, which is where and when you exist and THE ONLY "where and when" you exist. See Sartre. 63.17.78.65 (talk) 13:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

All of us have various-often conflicting-personality traits. We tend to argue with our inner-voices which usually represent our conscience telling what we should do rather than what we would prefer to do.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Why should what we should do be any different from what we prefer to do, if there is only one locus of control within us? 92.15.11.45 (talk) 15:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

That's called an "inner conflict": Knowing what you need to do, but wanting to do something else. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

In Laveyan Satanism there is what is called a demonic self which is a person's hidden, inner personality of the opposite gender. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

You may find Dualism (philosophy of mind) and Mind–body problem interesting reads. schyler (talk) 16:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

It is not my physical body that is arguing. On the other hand, Lazy-Self may just be the tiredness that I habitually overlook. Perhaps I will work better in the long run if I take a rest now. Or perhaps not. 92.15.11.45 (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not complicated. It's a normal human trait to put things off that we don't want to do, possibly in the hope that it will go away. Sometimes that actually works, but usually not. Another thing is that as a deadline approaches, you might be energized to do the work, hence making it more interesting in some way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) I don't think this is what is going on with you, but the Split-brain syndrome may be of interest in this regard.

What Jeanne was saying reminds me of the Jungian Anima/Animus, which are "autonomous complexes" within the individual. If that were the case, you may then be interested in the process of individuation. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

A reasonable analogy is what Jerry Seinfeld referred to as two personalities within us that he called "Evening Guy" and "Morning Guy". Evening Guy likes to stay up late, party, have fun, etc., whereas Morning Guy has to get up and go to work. And the core problem, Seinfeld said, is that, "Evening Guy doesn't care about Morning Guy." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

See outline of self and imagined interaction. Although "arguing voices" phenomena are particularly pronounced in some mental disorders, I'm fairly confident that decisional conflict is nearly universal. ~AH1^(TCU) 21:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

My Lazy-Self may have been just tiredness, since after resting yesterday evening and going to bed early, Lazy-Self had almost disapeared and I got a lot of work done. 92.15.14.132 (talk) 17:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Id, ego, and super-ego yet. Perhaps evolution has started to evolve two or more seperate selves within our brains, as I sometimes cross a busy street while thinking of something else and have no memory of it afterwards. People whose brains have been sliced down the middle as a cure for epilepsy can be scientifically proved to have two thinking selves. 92.24.189.188 (talk) 00:09, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

God Bless Anguilla

Hi, I'm looking for either an electronic (preferably free...) copy of the sheet music of this piece, or a MIDI other than the one on this page – thanks! ╟─TreasuryTag►person of reasonable firmness─╢ 16:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Credit cards

This is a financial question, not a legal question, but in any case, I won't just do whatever people on here say, so don't feel worried that I'm going to take the first advice given and run out and do it. I'm just trying to think my way around this issue.

I have a credit card with a reasonably high APR (18% or so) that has some $7000 on it. (Blah.) That means I get a pretty high finance charge each month. At the moment I can pay about $200 a month on the thing, until my income situation changes, which should be in a year or two.

I've been using Mint.com, and it recommends that I transfer that balance to a new card, one where I'd have 0% APR for 18 months or so. No doubt Mint.com gets a commission if I do this. Now obviously this new card will probably juke the APR up to something high after those 18 months. But 18 months without finance charges would mean a difference of well over $1000 total. But I still won't probably be able to pay it all off after 18 months. And there is probably some kind of balance transfer fee as well.

I'm leaning towards doing what Mint.com recommends, only because it'll give me a bit more time, and I am expecting my income situation to improve within the next year or so.

How much would it theoretically hurt my credit rating to pull this off? Is there anything I should be aware of that I'm not considering? I'm not the most adept when it comes to financial things, though I'm not a fool in general. Any thoughts/suggestions/worries/considerations? Thanks in advance. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm probably going to be tarred and feathered for not saying this first: You should see a qualified financial expert. There. Done. Now for the OR of my response. I've done what you're thinking about a couple times and my credit rating has always been excellent. The fact that you have even more credit (with a second card now) and that you're paying your bills on time raises your credit score. Any decrease that your score gets due to transferring a balance (I don't know if there actually is a decrease for this) is, in my experience, outweighed by the first two items in my previous sentence. Many people do exactly as you're planning. Dismas|^(talk) 16:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. And yes, qualified financial advisor, etc. etc. I'm not going to take anything on here as gospel. I hereby promise not to hold anyone on here responsible for my own financial mishaps. :-) --Mr.98 (talk) 17:19, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Nobody knows for sure how credit scores work. Credit rating agencies won't publish anything about how they do it. Therefore, follow what makes financial sense to you and your creditors and act as if there were no credit rating somewhere. Reducing your debt, paying less APR makes perfectly sense. Creditors like people like you, who take a huge amount of credit and are at the brink of not being able to pay, but pay the bill at the end. Quest09 (talk) 17:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the main think with credit scores is never missing a payment and never making them late. Even if there is a transfer fee, 0% for eighteen months is very good. I would transfer your debt to the new 0% card, and continue paying it off. Do not use the new card for any other purpose (dont use any credit card in fact) but just paying off the debt. 92.15.11.45 (talk) 20:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

There might be a one-time balance transfer fee from the card issuer as well. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Even so, all the fees combined won't be anywhere near the ~$1000 that he'll be saving in interest. Dismas|^(talk) 00:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

This and this agree you'll suffer only a small short-term dip in your credit rating. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The articles above don't say one thing: if you change the credit card, and are saving money by that, you can repay your debt earlies, which also could improve your credit rating. Is that enough to balance this short-term dip? Who knows? Knowing how credit scores exactly work is impossible. Just act in the most possible reasonable way and your credit score will rise. Quest09 (talk) 03:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Even though this is probably out of date I still think it's worth your 60 min to take a look at some of the past tips and tricks of credit card companies. This and this also outline some of the traps and pitfalls of a 0% APR credit card. Read the terms and agreements, consult a financial expert and pursue all other options (short term loan from bank, etc) before making any commitment to anything. This is strictly my personally opinion but I would worry more about hidden fees, traps in the terms and agreements (voiding the 0% APR if you missed a payment to ANOTHER financial institution, etc) then the drop in credit score. Royor (talk) 08:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I remember one such 0% offer I had myself in the past, which stopped and returned to the normal high interest rate when I forgot to make a payment on time. So my advice is make the payments by direct debit or the equivalent in your country, and never use that card apart from paying off the debt. 92.15.14.132 (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

In Judaism, were Adam and Eve Jewish?

Is there a Rabbi in the house? A serious theological question regarding Adam and Eve (or rather their equivalent in the Torah: I'm more familiar with the Christian Old Testament). Were they Jewish? Given that we are all assumed (in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) to be descended from them, aren't we all ultimately of Jewish descent, according to Jewish faith? And if not, why not?

Given current debates going on within Wikipedia, it seems worth asking this, and it seemed safer to ask it here than to disrupt talk pages etc. Please note I'm asking the question specifically in relation to Judaism, and that other faiths (or non-faiths) aren't relevant at this point. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Our Jews article says: "In Jewish tradition, Jewish ancestry is traced to the Biblical patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the second millennium BCE." I'm not sure what that would make Adam and Eve, though. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 17:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

By Jewish tradition, Abraham is the first Jew. However, the word 'Jew' was only used to refer to people after the Ten Lost Tribes had got lost, and it derives from the name of Judah.
Even as 'late' as Noah, the whole of humanity was regarded as one race, and the post-flood Noachide Code applied (applies!) to everybody, not just the Jews. ╟─TreasuryTag►voice vote─╢ 17:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Given that Abraham would be considered the father of Judaism, no, Adam and Eve were not Jewish. Everything prior to Abraham's appearance is basically "background", presumably mankind's early relationship with God. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:19, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, I should have paid more attention at my C of E primary school: thinking about it, I was probably told that the Jews were Abraham's descendants, though of course this was the Christian version anyway (or at least the C of E version, which always seemed to be vague on details). AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:36, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Were they literally Abraham's descendants, or the descendants of Abraham's "disciples"? Or is that the same list? My Biblical history is a bit rusty. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:40, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Jews are directly descended from Abraham's son Isaac, and through his son Jacob who became Israel after wrestling with an angel. Also, Isaac's son Esau narrowly missed out on being the ancestor of all Jews by Jacob's duplicity. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 17:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Roger. So Judaism was initially kind of like a family-run business (as with Islam, yes?) and branched out from there. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Right, Jacob had twelve sons, each of which then had a tribe:

WikiDao ☯ (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

A small correction to this is that there were actually 13 tribes, not 12 (although only 12 of the tribes, not including the Levites, received an allocation of land after the conquest of Canaan by Joshua). The descendants of Joseph formed not one, but two tribes: Manasseh and Ephraim. Marco polo (talk) 00:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

There is some dispute over the exact counting of the tribes as well. When the land is allocated, the "Half-tribe of Manasseh" is allocated land on the east bank of the Jordan (though, they also had to participate in the clearing of the land for the rest of the tribes). It is unclear if this meant 1/2 of the tribe of Manasseh, with the other half receiving a different allocation of land, or if it meant that Manasseh itself was considered 1/2 of a tribe (being 1/2 of Joseph). Just as in numbering the ten commandments (there is disagreement on how to divide the passages to come up with 10), there is also some ambiguity on how to count through the 12 (13) tribes to get The Twelve Tribes. As a side note, strictly speaking there are only Jews after the Babylonian Captivity. Jews derives from "(of the tribe of) Judah". Prior to that, the people are usually referred to as "Hebrews" or "Israelites" (from "the descendants of Israel (Jacob)"). --Jayron32 01:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You get "10 lost tribes" only if you count Ephraim and Manasseh separately, and also allocate Levi exclusively to the northern kingdom. If you base it on the original 12, then there were only "8½ lost tribes" — since Judah, Benjamin, the remnants of Simeon, and substantial numbers of Levites remained in the southern kingdom... AnonMoos (talk) 01:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Abraham is not definitively considered Jewish, the consensus is that Abraham himself did not know if he was Jewish. The first definitive Jews were at the giving of the Torah. A Jew is defined as "being obligated in the mitzvot (commandments)", so you can see why there were no Jews before the Torah was given. Ariel. (talk) 10:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

For the same reason, Jesus was the founder of Christianity but was not himself a Christian, but a Jew. Jew-hating Christians ought to remember that. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

All people were, have been, and will continue to be superstitious to the extent that they believe false myths. There is no evidence for created initial humans, only for humans evolved from apes. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 13:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

World Leaders

Which world leaders have professions other than "professional politician", i.e., they are trained or certified or specialize in a different field (for example, the CHinese president Jintao Hu is an engineer). I specifically exclude the legal and military professions as being too close to the politician's profession, and I'm especially interested in leaders who, like Hu, are educated in the (non-political or historical) sciences. 24.92.78.167 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC).

Angela Merkel trained as a chemist. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 18:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

No, she didn't. She trained as a physicist.Quest09 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC).

Well, our article says she did her doctorate in "quantum chemistry" so I suppose you could call her either a chemist or a physicist; I don't know which she prefers and/or is most apt given what she actually did outside of being a politician. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:56, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• Call her a physicist, if you meet her by accident. Incidentally, her first degree is in physics, she might call herself 'Diplom Physik' in her own country and use her Dr. before her name. The title 'chemist' (without the Diplom) is not protected, so everyone can claim to be one). Quest09 (talk) 02:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You should realize that the vast majority of world leaders had a profession before becoming full-time politicians (even if only for a relativly short time). It's easier to ask for world leaders which were formerly military officers, lawyers, or "only" professional politicians instead. Flamarande (talk) 18:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't Hitler supposedly at one time a wallpaper hanger? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about wallpaper hanger, but when he lived in Vienna he made a living by selling postcards of his drawings. They were usually of buildings.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The "wallpaper" thing is discussed in Paper hanger (Mundelein's speech). I've seen some of his drawings. They weren't bad. Better than I could have done. But he got savaged by critics. If Castro had had a curve ball, and if Hitler had had a patron, world history might have been vastly different. I'm guessing that when Hitler started sending folks to the death camps, the art critics were at the top of his list. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he believed that people who painted what he sweepingly termed degenerate art merited elimination.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Prince William of Wales, the future King, appears to have gotten his degrees in the areas of Geography (which is somewhat political) and Art (which pretty much isn't). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

And he's a graduate of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst but now earns his living as a Royal Air Force Air-Sea Rescue helicopter pilot. Alansplodge (talk) 09:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Which would seem to be excluded by the OP's 'no military professions' dictum. As William isn't likely to say become a professional artist when he finishes his military career I don't think he really fits in to the OP's concept of people who have had a profession before becoming a 'politician' (presuming you think him a politician, you could also ask whether he's ever not been a politician) Nil Einne (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Silvio_Berlusconi was a successful businessman before becoming a politician. Certainly there seems to be a relatively strong link between becoming leaders of governments and being either a Lawyer/in the legal profession or having a military background. ny156uk (talk) 21:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

What constitutes a 'world leader' for the purposes of this question? You might just have to run down the List of current heads of state and government and click through each leader listed to check their biography. I've also left out professors of law, economics, and political science. From the top (I made it as far as Cape Verde):

• Bamir Topi, President of Albania, has a PhD in veterinary studies.
• Sali Berisha, Prime Minister of Albania, was a cardiologist and university professor.
• Serzh Sargsyan, President of Armenia, was a metalworker or machinist for a few years before he assumed a role with the Young Communist Union. (His biographical sketch is a bit unclear on the nature of the work, and he appears to have graduated from university during the same period; I don't know if he was doing part-time studies, or part-time work, or both.)
• Alexander Lukashenko, President of Belarus, graduated from the Belarussian Agricultural Academy and spent a few years as deputy chairman of a collective farm. (I'm not sure whether you'd count that as a agricultural job or a political one, however.)
• Sergei Sidorsky, Prime Minister of Belarus, was trained and worked as an electrical fitter and electrician.
• Bakir Izetbegović, a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, was an architect.
• Pierre Nkurunziza, President of Burundi, studied education, and was working as a university lecturer prior to the civil war.
• Norodom Sihamoni, King of Cambodia, was a classical dance instructor.

Note that several biographies of heads of state lack full details on their educational history or pre-political careers, so there may be more that I'm missing. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:19, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Lech Walesa was an electrician by trade. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Barack Obama was a community organizer. Corvus cornix_talk 04:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Tony Blair was a singer in a punk band called Ugly Rumours; ironically, Mick Jagger had wished to become a politician prior to becoming lead singer of the Rolling Stones.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Ugly Rumours were not a punk band; their existence pre-dates punk by several years – the gesture seen here [3] may be superficially punkish in spirit, but the haircut and clothes certainly are not. Besides, Blair was a student at the time, so this is not a case of him being a professional musician. 87.114.101.69 (talk) 00:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Former Czech president Václav Havel was a notable playwright and essayist before becoming president.

If we're going there, the current Croatian president Ivo Josipović is a pianist and composer (on the side, otherwise he's a lawyer). TomorrowTime (talk) 18:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

And Ignacy Jan Paderewski was a world-famous concert pianist before becoming the Prime Minister of Poland. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher studied chemistry, and worked as an industrial chemist, but later also did a degree in law. Leonid Brezhnev was a metallurgist. Benito Mussolini was a schoolteacher, and had qualified as such. Leopoldo Galtieri of Argentina studied engineering, but was a military engineer. --Colapeninsula (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

In communist China:

Presidents: Mao Zedong worked as a librarian, Hu Jintao worked as an engineer, Jiang Zemin worked as an engineer.

Premiers: Wen Jiabao worked as a geologist and engineer, Zhu Rongji trained as an engineer, Li Peng was an engineer. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:15, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Did the earliest Carved Stone Balls have knobs on?

There's a theory at the moment (down to Andrew Young of the University of Exeter and a NOVA documentary) that the objects are ball bearings, for transporting the gigantic stones of stone circles, but a ball bearing with six protruding knobs on is not a very good ball bearing, is it? Unless the ones from the neolithic are perfectly round? 81.131.34.141 (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Mathematically, a "roller" doesn't have to be a circle at all (see http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CurveofConstantWidth.html ; not sure we have much about it on Wikipedia). Only a wheel rotating around a fixed axis has to be a circle... AnonMoos (talk) 22:30, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that the Carved Stone Balls illustrated in the Wikipedia article are unlikely candidates for ball bearings, but are these the ones referred to by Young?

It's worth noting that if you use any approximately-round rock as a hammer, you tend to knock the high spots off, and make it progressively more spherical. The first stone balls may not have been intentionally carved at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:42, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm asking about a particular kind of artifact, which is late Neolithic / early Bronze Age, nearly always comes from north-east Scotland, and (the fact that inspired the latest theory) has a very distinct size, being nearly always two and three quarter inches across. They were really rather good at making stone things by the late Neolithic, you know, and wouldn't just randomly carve stone balls by mistake. They did however make a lot of them on purpose for unknown reasons. I'm asking about the earliest of that set of artifacts. 81.131.61.94 (talk) 01:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, missed your question. Yes, that is the general type of thing referred to, but as I say, the knobs confound me, so I don't know if there are smooth spherical varieties of the same thing, and that's what I'm asking. It's particularly interesting if all the earliest ones are plain spheres... or if none of them are, which would seem to throw the theory right out. 81.131.61.94 (talk) 01:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I did actually know that (the rolling 50p coin effect), and I wondered if these might be spherical versions of the same thing, but it seemed unlikely since I think the effect depends on the object having a constant width in any orientation, and I can't see how that can be achieved with six knobs. Four, now, arranged tetrahedrally, I could just about believe might work as a strange kind of bearing. Six is the usual number on a carved stone ball, though. 81.131.61.94 (talk) 01:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we need a link to the article/documentary here. Or at least a better description of the artefacts: to be clear, the objects in question aren't spherical? Do they resemble the ones shown in the Wikipedia article? If they do, what is the difficulty with assuming their purpose is 'non-functional' in an engineering sense (they clearly have a social/cultural "function" if they are mass producing them) AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, they're decorated (incised with patterns at least - I don't know it they were painted); that tends to preclude a purely functional use. why take days to decorate something that's going to get used as a roller? That tends to lean towards ceremonial objects or weaponry. Given the size and shape I might have guessed an agricultural tool (the things look to be about perfect for grinding-stones - hold it in your hand and roll the curved protrusions over grain to make flour), but farm tools don't generally get symbolically decorated. very odd. --Ludwigs2 06:31, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you talking about the ones in the Wikipedia article, Ludwigs? I think there is still some confusion about what it is we are actually discussing. Not that this is unusual for Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

It might be that early ones are plain and functional, and late ones are produced as part of a tradition, and become impractically shaped and decorated. There must be various modern examples of this ... clogs, maybe (consider the picture of the cat in the giant painted ones). 213.122.4.215 (talk) 10:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's local news site with an overview, [4] the guy's profile on his university website, [5] and a transcript of the documentary [6] (which doesn't give much information). 213.122.4.215 (talk) 10:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Found the Wikipedia article: Curve of constant width (I didn't find it before because it didn't contain the string "roll" at all, until I added something just now...) AnonMoos (talk) 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I saw the NOVA program. What's interesting is that people making the balls at that time seem to have had such exact standardization of size over the entire period of ball-making: "Of the 387 known carved stone balls, 375 are about 70 mm in diameter, but twelve are known with diameters of 90 to 114 mm." WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps this question is about the Stone spheres of Costa Rica? Many crazy (and otherwise) theories have been put forth about them. APL (talk) 21:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

OP linked to this article, mentioned the NOVA program (on Stonehenge), and already clarified: "Well, I'm asking about a particular kind of artifact, which is late Neolithic / early Bronze Age, nearly always comes from north-east Scotland". WikiDao ☯ (talk) 23:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Christian Art history, Protestant Reformation

I'm a Christian artist and I teach on creativity. I'm looking for more information on the cause and effect on the arts during the Protestant Reformation. Where can I look ? Books that include information on the topic ?

Kevin Moffatt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.66.125.65 (talk) 22:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

We have an article The Reformation and art, and it looks as though some of the works listed in the "References" and "Further reading" sections may be helpful. Deor (talk) 23:33, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

November 28

why do latin americans like spain so much?

It's confusing. I hear a lot about the leyenda negra and all the hatred towards the colonizers and imperialists, but most latinos I know admire Spain. This seems to be a common thread, for example, the President of CONMEBOL called Spain a "mother country" ([7]). So why do is there admiration towards Spain vs. resentment? That is, what are the cultural and political reasons? hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 00:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe some of those of strong Indian cultural background are not so enamored of Spain, but they are not usually the ones running the governments or the universities. To analogize, there have been two wars between the U.K. and the U.S., and lots of Anglophobia among certain groups in the U.S. at various times (a notorious Anglophobe, Joseph Kennedy, was even appointed ambassador to the U.K. in the 1930s), but we still have Masterpiece Theatre running on PBS... AnonMoos (talk) 01:07, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Just as the American Indians are likely not all that crazy about the white man even now. But as you suggest, Americans and Brits have a strong cultural tie, just as Brazil and Portugal do, and the rest of Latin America has with Spain. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

For some thoughts on the changing Mexican attitudes to their indigenous heritage, and thus by implication the other, Spanish conquistador side, see La Malinche. BrainyBabe (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, Spain is (it must be said) politically and economically impotent, and has been for ages, so there's very little to plausibly resent. In modern parlance, the Spaniards fucked up their own shit so badly that they became impossible to hate. Their glories lie in the foggy past, like those of Greece. Add to that that they have a tiny population (there are more Spanish-speakers in the USA than in Spain) and a political culture that is introspective, unambitious, and Balkanized. They're about as far as you can get from the politics of grandeur. This reduced stature allows hispanophones to invoke "Spain" as a metonym for a shared language and culture, a nostalgic gesture, more condescension than cringe. English-speakers can't do that with Britain because Britain, relatively speaking, still has loads of money and power, a respectable share of the language's population, and lots of fresh grudges. Britain is too visible and actually relevant to fade away into a vague touchstone of Anglo-Saxon culture. LANTZY^TALK 23:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Identity according to Palahniuk (Fight Club)

If "...you're not how much money you've got in the bank. You're not your job. You're not your family, and you're not who you tell yourself.... You're not your name.... You're not your problems.... You're not your age.... You are not your hopes." Then what the hell are we? (according to Palahniuk) Quest09 (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

For who we (and here I am assuming you mean humans, and in general) are, see Human biology. Anything else is opinion, and not appropriate to the Ref Desk. Bielle (talk) 02:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

He's asking relative to a book and film. It's totally appropriate. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Tyler Durden was something of a nihilist, in my reading (and according to our article). You aren't much in his worldview. Note that one should not conflate Durden with Palahniuk himself — I'm sure there are some differences then. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Palahniuk is not Durden, but everything inside the novel Fight Club are views of Palahniuk. I suppose, if his view is nihilist, we (or the character in question) are nothing. But, who is this nothing fighting with himself for the control of himself? Is that a contradiction? Quest09 (talk) 02:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, I would not speak of Durden's views are if they are verbatim the same as the author. In my reading of it (which is some years old now, so I might be remembering things wrong), Durden, the character, is an expression of extreme nihilism and anti-social anarchism. "Bob" or whatever the protagonists' name is, is an "everyman" who is exposed to the seductions of nihilism but is eventually repulsed by its dangers and its callous disregard for human society and life. The fact that Tyler's views are actually latent within the everyman in a literal sense makes it for me an argument about the contradictions within all men — something like the H.L. Mencken quote, "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." In the end, or one of the ends (I remember the movie ending more vividly than the book, but remember that they differ significantly), Tyler "loses out" to Bob, if I recall. Unstructured nihilism, though tempting, is ultimately empty and unfulfilling. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I asked the question in a rather confusing manner. I should have asked: "what the hell is 'Joe' according to Palhniuk? If he is not all of the above, then what? What does he become in his fight?" Note: the narrator of the book, the equivalent of Edward Norton in the film, has no name. Some call him Joe. Bob is a different character; he is the big fat guy in the film. Quest09 (talk) 02:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

All the things in your original question are things you have, not things that you are, so that you are not those things is true of everyone. Except for "what you tell yourself you are", which may in a sense actually be who you are according to our Identity article. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 03:18, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The philosophical movement Existentialism may be relevant here. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Hearing the Virgin Mary

This is a serious question: how does the Vatican deal with people claiming to hear Virgin Mary's voice? How do they tell apart the lunatics from the real apparitions of her? I mean, being Catholics implies that she (or whatever other deity) could show up to some believers. Quest09 (talk) 02:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

They have miracle investigators and exorcism investigators whose job it is it to try and separate the "genuinely supernatural" from mental illness, etc. Here's an article relative to how they do it for canonizing saints. Here's a recent New York Times article regarding their re-embrace of exorcism. Note in the latter that belief that you are encountering supernatural phenomena seems to be correlated with modernity and education: "But he said that there could eventually be a rising demand for exorcism because of the influx of Hispanic and African Catholics to the United States. People from those cultures, he said, are more attuned to the experience of the supernatural." As you may infer, I take a rather cynical view of all of this, but that's the procedure. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

When someone sees the face of Mary in the patterns of a grilled cheese sandwich, that voice cries out, "Eat me!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The Vatican conspicuously endorses some apparitions, such as Lourdes and Fatima, and refrains from endorsing or supporting others, such as Medugorje. Not sure what leads the Vatican to officially ignore some apparitions and actively condemn and suppress others. The main article is Marian apparition... AnonMoos (talk) 07:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

she (or whatever other deity) — it is certainly a long way from RC doctrine to claim that Mary (or anyone else other than the Almighty) is a deity. Marnanel (talk) 16:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Correct. When an apparition is called "divine" that means "by the power of God" - meaning a miracle. It doesn't mean that Mary herself is divine. In Catholic belief, God may, and has, performed miracles THROUGH saints and holy people -- but the source of the miracle is still God; no created being has the power to perform miracles. 165.91.166.218 (talk) 19:59, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

It bears mentioning that in the case of Our Lady of Fatima, thousands of eye-witnesses were involved, and yet still the endorsement from the Church is only "[a]fter a canonical enquiry the visions of Fatima were officially declared "worthy of belief" in October 1930 by the Bishop of Leiria-Fátima". In the case of Our Lady of Lourdes, the position is "we remain convinced that the Apparitions are supernatural and divine, and that by consequence, what Bernadette saw was the Most Blessed Virgin.", but that is (again) not actually declaring it necessarily 'true' or a required Catholic belief, and that statement came after several verified miracles. The Church doesn't actually consider belief in any of these apparitions or miracles to be a necessary part of being a Catholic. 86.161.109.130 (talk) 00:19, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the Queen Greek?

Carrying on a thread above, the History of British nationality law is very complicated, but the Queen certainly qualifies for U. K. citizenship. As she doesn't need to exercise any of the attributes of it (she doesn't vote, she doesn't need to carry a passport, and so on) it's rather an academic point. Here's another thought which may be more meaningful, as the Duke of Edinburgh was born in Greece, is he a Greek citizen and is the Queen entitled to the same rights? Moonraker2 (talk) 10:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Although it's usually claimed that Philip renounced his Greek citizenship before he married Elizabeth, this discussion thread (which I confess I haven't read right through) seems to suggest that the picture is not as clear-cut as that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

From [8] it seems that as she doesn't live in Greece she can't gain citizenship by virtue of marriage as although it was before 1984 it wasn't I presume a "Greek Orthodox Marriage" Nil Einne (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Hans Christian Andersen

I have a plaque commerating Andersen. It shows a cameo of him surrounded by his name and the dates 1805 (his birth) to 1930. What significance is 1930. I believe the plaque came from Odense as this also was the birth place of a close family member. Any help would be appreciated in gaining knowledge. Thank you2.121.62.170 (talk) 13:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Does the plaque itself actually date from 1930? That would have been the 125th anniversary of his birth year. Baseball Bugs (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

UK Law

In UK Law, is it prohibited for a person to issue verbal threats of violence against another person, or intimidate them in other ways? I am not seeking legal advice here, I'm just curious about this area of law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.213.51.219 (talk) 15:18, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Why should it be allowed? Quest09 (talk) 15:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Quite apart from the matter at hand, do you think it's a good idea to begin by asking whether something should be allowed, rather than whether it should be forbidden? Marnanel (talk) 16:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Quest09: your mother probably had you when she was 14 or 15, so that's why you never had the opportunity to become a better human being: I'm sorry. Ive just purposefully tried to offend you with something I know is false. Why should that be allowed? There is NO reason that "should be allowed". Lucky for me, laws dont work based on a list of things that are allowed. Laws consist of crimes, not allowances. The qustion is not: What? How could he do that?? Under what allowance??? Its either: thats illegal. Or: that oughta be illegal. Or: what a douche. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.230.216 (talk) 17:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The crime of assault (not battery, which with it is often confused) is normally described like "any act by which a person intentionally or recklessly causes another person to apprehend immediate and unlawful and personal violence" or similar. - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 15:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• You may also be interested in the offences of affray, violent disorder and harassment, alarm or distress. ╟─TreasuryTag►stannary parliament─╢ 15:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) A person is guilty of an offence if he (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or (b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.[9] Public Order Act 1986. Standard warnings about this not being legal advice. Marnanel (talk) 16:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Or in old-fashioned terminology, "Fightin' words." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:10, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

History

Who is Annie Christmas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skbauer (talk • contribs) 16:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

She is a character in African-American folklore, there is some information here. DuncanHill (talk) 17:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

...and here. However, the figure has been described as "fakelore". Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

If you stop and think about it, all folklore started as "fakelore". Apparently the difference between the two is how long they've been around. For example, the current American "traditional" image of Santa Claus is only vaguely related to St. Nicholas, and derives largely from 19th-century imagery. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

when does the trololo guy say "trololo"?

Can someone give me a link with the youtube video of the trololo guy, right before he actually says "trololo"? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.230.216 (talk) 17:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, the thing is, Edward Khil, the trololo guy, doesn't actually say anything like it. The viral video is of him doing a vocalise, which by definition doesn't include any lyrics of any kind. TomorrowTime (talk) 19:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

It sure as hell includes the vocalization la and ye (as well as ho), so where does it include the vocalization tro, wise guy? 84.153.230.216 (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Please read over our policy on personal attacks and bear in mind that this Desk is staffed by volunteers. ╟─TreasuryTag►estoppel─╢ 20:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I withdrew my brash, unwarranted personal attack. I apologize to both TomorrowTime and any bystanders. Sorry. 84.153.230.216 (talk) 20:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

King of England

How exactly — and by whom — is it decided as to whether Prince Charles or Prince William will become the next King of England? Is this a decision that Queen Elizabeth makes on her own? Or Parliament? Or what? The only way that I see Prince William "leap frogging" over Prince Charles (to become King) is if both Queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles agree to this arrangement (along with Prince William). Is that correct? Thanks for any insights. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

Two answers: 1) There are no Kings of England any more. There are Kings of the United Kingdom. 2) The monarch's personal decision has nothing at all to do with the law of succession. It's defined by an act of Parliament (specifically, the Act of Settlement 1701). Even when Edward VIII wanted to abdicate, it took Parliament saying he wasn't the king any more to make it so. Marnanel (talk) 18:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. So how does that Act address the potential issue of William leap-frogging over Charles? Thank you. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

The Act of Settlement says (in effect) that Charles will become king upon the Queen's death. There is no provision for skipping him, even if the Queen or Charles themselves would want it— and I haven't heard anything to indicate that they do. As far as I can see, there are only two ways in which Charles, assuming he didn't want to be king, could disqualify himself. Firstly, similarly to what was done for Edward VIII, he could try to get a separate act passed in the parliaments of all sixteen Commonwealth realms saying that William was the next in line. (It would need to be all sixteen: the Statute of Westminster requires this for any legislation touching the succession.) Secondly, he has an easy get-out: he could become a Roman Catholic, thus disqualifying himself from the succession under the Act of Settlement. But I don't see that happening any time soon. Marnanel (talk) 19:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well another slightly more difficult option is to divorce his current wife and then marry a catholic (this could be his current wife if she converts before their next marriage). Note that the Act of Settlement only talks about marrying a Catholic so even if his wife converts now, he's probably? (see Katharine, Duchess of Kent#Catholicism) not disqualified although it's likely to be controversial. On the other hand, he could convert to Islam and then enter into an open civil partnership with his atheist gay partner and he'll still technically qualify AFAIK. Nil Einne (talk) 19:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The trivial way is the Prince of Wales could predecease the second in line.
Sleigh (talk) 02:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

It's often remarked that a Catholic cannot become king, but a Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist or voodoo witch doctor can. My reading of the succession rules is that, while Catholics and their spouses are indeed excluded, it's not enough to simply not be a Catholic. The monarch must be a Protestant, that is, a member of one of the Christian churches other than Catholicism - and if not Anglican, must come into communion with the Church of England. Is this not so? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

That definition of Protestant is surely problematic, in any case. To me a Protestant is an adherent of some Christian tradition that traces back to the Protestant Reformation. For example, Eastern Orthodox and Copts are definitely not Protestant, no matter how you slice it. I would probably not include Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, or Seventh-day Adventists. Borderline cases are Anabaptists (i.e. Amish, Mennonites), Quakers, and Anglicans themselves.

The only completely clear "Protestants" are Lutherans and Calvinists. --Trovatore (talk) 19:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Surely all those denominations which descend from English Dissenters would count as Protestants? BrainyBabe (talk) 22:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I am definitely not an expert on this subject matter, but I looked at the Act of Settlement's text and didn't see anything that lays out that the eldest son becomes king upon the death of the monarch. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not mentioned in that act, but comes from common law. See Succession to the British throne. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for all the input and feedback ... much appreciated! (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:37, 4 December 2010 (UTC))

Queen of England

There has been some discussion about the royal title that Camilla Parker Bowles will take if Prince Charles becomes the King of England. There is some debate as to whether she will be called "Queen" or "Queen Consort". What is the difference? Who cares? Why is this a matter of controversy? Thanks for any insights. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

There was this idea of Camilla being addressed as the Duchess of Cornwall, or some other title other than as Queen whilst Charles was on the throne, because it appeased people who were concerned about the fact it was a second marriage; and possibly also that Diana was being replaced (being rather more popular with the public than with Charles). The abdication crisis was not altogether dissimilar. - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 19:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any similarities with the abdication crisis, Jarry. Edward only ever had one wife, and it was it his desire to marry her that caused the crisis. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't the perceived unsuitability of Camilla at the time one of the reasons he married Diana instead only for that to fall down? So while the current situation may not be the same, perhaps we arrived here partly for similar reasons. Nil Einne (talk) 19:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) I didn't mean to say very similar, but just that the monarchy itself could be under threat when the validity of the monarch (in this case the monarch's wife) is questioned (as in our article "religious, legal, political, and moral objections were raised"). We're not in the same place over Camilla, but we know there will be objections if she becomes "Queen" in name. - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 19:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense to me. The wife of a king is a queen consort; calling her "Princess Consort" or the Tooth Fairy or Fairy Godmother doesn't alter that fact. Surely any objections would not be to whatever title they decide to call her once they're married and he becomes king, but to her marrying Charles at all. But that horse bolted 5 years ago, so ... As for the monarchy being under threat, that's just so much over-dramatised journalistic twaddle. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Although it will be interesting to see public reaction if he tries to insist on her being called Queen - especially if he himself becomes any more unpopular, for any reason, between now and then. Actually, it's remarkably easy to think of scenarios under which the monarchy manages to self-destruct. If there comes a time when the family has no popular members, the public simply won't accept it. At the moment it has Elizabeth, William, and..... umm..... Anne? Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I think any such discussions would be held behind very tightly closed doors, not in public. Kings don't like it when they're widely seen not be getting their way, so they'd never risk such a perception being created in the first place. But what do you mean by "the public simply won't accept it"? If some catastrophe occurred and Anne became the Queen, what could anyone do about it? Seriously. If they didn't like it, they could go and live in Timbuktoo. Do you envisage huge crowds carrying torches, storming Buckingham Palace, crying "Down with Anne!"? That seems extraordinarily un-British to me. And there's the not-so-trivial matter of the other 15 Commonwealth realms, whose opinion is of equal weight with that of the UK in succession matters. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:01, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Ultimately, the Commons, and thus the people, are in charge. If the monarchy becomes unpopular enough that a manifesto promising a republic will get Labour back in power, you can bet your life that Labour will make the promise. Marnanel (talk) 00:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

If that were to happen, that still doesn't mean the monarchy is under threat. It wasn't under threat when we Australians had a vote in 1999 about whether or not we wanted to remain subjects of the Queen, because there would have been 15 other realms that continued to have the monarchy. Same would apply if the UK became a republic. The only way the monarchy itself could be under threat is if all 16 realms unanimously agreed to dispense with it. It's not just a British institution anymore, it's owned equally and collectively by 16 separate and independent nations. People keep on seeming to forget that. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 01:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Do the rest of you pay her salary? If the Brits sack her, who's going to pay her? Not that she'll be on the street, I'm sure. --Trovatore (talk) 01:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Got nothing to do with the constitutional position. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 05:38, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

"It's not just a British institution anymore, it's owned equally and collectively by 16 separate and independent nations." Dream on. If there's a constitutional crisis in the UK, it would be disingenuous in the extreme to think that it would not have knock-on effects in other realms. Or, the family could just up sticks and move to Australia. So far as "discussions in public" are concerned, I suspect you may be greatly underestimating the power of the UK press. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

"If there's a constitutional crisis in the UK, it would be disingenuous in the extreme to think that it would not have knock-on effects in other realms." - how is this at odds with what I said before? It seems to confirm it. Btw, I'm not concerning myself with the trappings of the monarchy, which are undeniably and thoroughly British in character and history, but the monarchy itself, which is now just as much Papua New Guinean, Solomon Islander or Belizean it is British. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

You seemed to be suggesting that, if there was a crisis in the UK, the monarchy could continue elsewhere. Technically true, but unlikely in my opinion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

This whole discussion is about technicalities. People often bandy about the word "crisis" as if it were synonymous with "catastrophe". It doesn't mean that and never has. It means "opportunity". The abdication "crisis" was never even remotely going to result in the end of the monarchy. Baldwin was always going to get his way if Edward persisted in his desire to marry Wallis; that's how the system is set up to operate, the PM has more power than the monarch. Nor would Camilla the queen being called "Queen Camilla" lead to such an outcome. Can you give me an example of events or circumstances that could realistically spell the end of the UK monarchy? And I'm not talking about the people gradually becoming disillusioned and disenchanted to the point that they just don't care for it anymore, I'm talking about something in the nature of what people might describe as a "crisis". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Plausible scenario: (1) All leading members of the royal family become personally unpopular, for whatever reason - sexual scandal, political scandal, arrogance, etc. etc. - all sorts of possibilities. The next in line to succeed becomes particularly unpopular, again for whatever reason - creating the point of "crisis". (3) There starts to be widespread public discussion along the lines of "We don't want that one to be king/queen.... We should decide, we're a democracy - it should be someone else". (4) One or other major UK political parties takes up the thread with a manifesto commitment - not to elect a "head of state" / "president" with any substantial powers, but someone who commands national respect, to be the representative of the whole country. (5) A commission is set up to explore possibilities for the UK - leading to a recommendation for an elected non-political head of state (or, possibly, one appointed for a fixed term by an elected body). (6) Referendum in the UK (all the while assuming that the royal family and incumbent themselves remain personally unpopular). (7) "Yes" vote to establish a new system and pension off the royals. (8) In the meantime, the other realms do whatever they want to do. It would take a few years, but it could happen. The "crisis" would set off the process. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I would think a true "crisis" would arise if, for example, the king or queen were discovered to have been engaging in activity of some kind that was harmful to the nation, such as being a secret agent for SMERSH or something. But even then, wouldn't that merely result in the monarch being forced to abdicate, and the (hopefully honest) successor brought in? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, monarchs may be above the law in many ways, but the monarchy itself is more precious (for those who believe) than any particular monarch. Not sure if your example is particularly realistic, but I agree with the outcome. The monarchy would survive that case. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

My example is in the realm of James Bond, but there have been rumors that the abdicated king was a little too friendly with Hitler. Whether that was true and/or whether it influenced the process of his abdication, I have no idea. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

She will necessarily be the queen consort; she will be known as the Princess Consort, according to Clarence House. They haven't explained why they're doing this. It may well be connected with the similar decision that she be known as the Duchess of Cornwall, a lesser title of hers, rather than the Princess of Wales (although she is in fact the Princess of Wales). This in turn may be connected with the public's perception of the late Diana Spencer as Princess of Wales. I have not heard that it is a matter of any controversy. Marnanel (talk) 18:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, sections of the press tried to make a controversy out of it last week when Prince Charles was asked about it in an interview. To many of us in Britain, it doesn't matter a damn. --ColinFine (talk) 19:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is what I meant by a (potential) controversy brewing. As Jarry1250 stated above: "we know there will be objections if she becomes "Queen" in name." Thanks for all of the information! (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC))

This article gives a sense of the state of public opinion in the UK. Apparently, "a poll commissioned by the Daily Mail last week revealed only 14 per cent support the idea of Queen Camilla, while more than half oppose it." Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The Daily Fail is hardly a reliable source for such things. They're not quite as virulently anti-Charles as the Excess, but they aren't far behind. DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting it was a "reliable source". I was suggesting that, as one of the most popular papers in the UK, it provided readers outside the UK with a guide to one strand of public opinion. Like it or not, several million more people buy the Mail than actively support republicanism. Sad, but true. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

But what has "actively supporting republicanism" got to do with people's opinions as to the title Camilla should use when Charles succeeds to the throne? DuncanHill (talk) 23:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I was just commenting that personal opposition to the Mail's policies shouldn't lead to you discounting the fact that it represents a significant strand of public opinion in the UK. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a republican. It's the Fail's combination of xenophobia and homophobia that really get my goat. That and the "Will the housing market recover before you die of cancer?" articles. DuncanHill (talk) 11:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with second marriages. The problem is both the Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall were divorced.
Sleigh (talk) 02:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you to all for the above posts. They were very helpful. Thank you! (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC))

Side question about the Queen

Resolved

In Helen Mirren's film, there is a scene in which ERII drives out into the countryside, alone, and observes a deer at close range while pondering things. Presumably that intriguing scene is fictionalized. What I'm curious about is, how likely is it that the Queen would go driving by herself out into the countryside? No bodyguard, no nothin'. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with this, she owns vast tracts of the countryside in her own right, especially around Sandringham and apparently (I can't remember where I saw this one) drives a Range Rover around quite frequently. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Even now, in her 80s? That's excellent. So while that particular scene may have been fictional, it wasn't unrealistic. I guess I'm also curious what Brits thought of that film. I was impressed. Mirren's performance evoked some empathy, whether it was deserved or not. The picture I got was that while the Queen may be old and set in her ways (and the ways of her ancestors), she's not a robot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

My concern, though, is what if she were to head out on one of her solo jaunts and was never seen again? What happens then? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

A Regency until such time as she turns-up again or her fate became known. I suspect that a fair amount of police time and effort would be expended on the case. Back to the question - the scene was, IIRC, supposed to be on her Balmoral estate, which at 26,000 hectares, has plenty of room to drive around in. For obvious reasons, they don't tell us how the boundary of the estate is secured, but I don't think HM could just drive out of the gate without anyone noticing. Alansplodge (talk) 12:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Or more to the point, abductors or assassins going in through the gate. I just find it interesting that the Queen would actually go out solo, on her own personal version of "walkabout", to relax and think about things. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I remember a TV documentary in the 1960s[10] that showed HM driving alone around one of her estates, in an old Rover P5 saloon (except for the film crew obviously). Alansplodge (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The Royal family once had a bungalow on the north Norfolk coast, apparantly. 92.24.176.72 (talk) 14:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Muslim marriage

How do you get married at a mosque? Is it a legal marriage? ScienceApe (talk) 18:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

In the USA, there's separation of church and state. If a marriage at a mosque were ipso facto not a legal one, so would be a marriage in a church. Why would it be non-legal in a mosque as opposed to any place else? 63.17.43.56 (talk) 11:12, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe that that largely depends upon the laws of the country where the marriage is performed. The article Islamic marital practices seems to be the proper place to look. Flamarande (talk) 18:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

As to the second part of your question, Nowadays "legal marriage" isn't really about the ceremony and the vows. (In USA at least) It's really about filling out the proper government forms. (Brief discussion from Cecil Adams on the topic here : [11]) APL (talk) 21:31, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

In many parts of the Muslim world, you don't get married at a mosque anyway -- it's more of a contract between two families than a religious sacrament as such... AnonMoos (talk) 02:39, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

There are two facets of marriage, regardless of religion (or lack thereof). There is the spiritual aspect, and the legal aspect. They are often bound together, as with a normal church-style wedding, or a civil ceremony conducted by a judge. There have also been same-sex "marriages" and polygamous "marriages" for a long time in the US. Those are of the "spiritual" variety, and in general have (or had) no legal standing. The current debate about same-sex marriage concerns strictly the legal aspect of it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:59, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

According to this[12], you can in England and Wales (Scotland has a seperate legal system), provided that the mosque is "registered for the solemnisation of marriages" and it is your usual place of worship. Alansplodge (talk) 14:32, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Sartre wanted prize money anyway?

I remember reading on Wikipedia a while ago that even though Sartre refused to accept the 1964 Nobel prize, he still asked for the prize money later. I looked today and couldn't find that statement; is it true? I couldn't find anything on google about it. Thanks!  ?EVAUNIT^{神になった人間} 18:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Some websites suggest Lars Gyllensten made this allegation in his autobiography, but there are a little few and far between to even confirm Gyllensten even made the accusation. [In every case, Sartre is refused the money; if he had got it, I am confident people would know.] - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 19:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

It's hard to prove a negative, unless you have a "debunker" cite. But I am certain it is NOT true. Sartre was very consistent in his principles. During the last 16 years of his life, he lived comfortably (on royalties) in an apartment in Paris. It is all but impossible to imagine him "asking for the prize money" during the period 1964-1980, and there is no reference to such an act in his writings or interviews or in Beauvoir's. 63.17.43.56 (talk) 11:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

WikiLeaks

How has Julian Assange committed any crimes? Doesn't one have to owe allegiance to the US to commit treason against it? --75.33.217.61 (talk) 21:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Could you give us a reference to somewhere where someone is making this allegation? His article doesn't mention it. Marnanel (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

What jurisdiction? In the United States, it is extremely hard to prevent the publication of classified information. See Prior restraint, as well as Near v. Minnesota and New York Times Co. v. United States. However, it may be possible for the government to prosecute press agencies that publish classified information, but to my knowledge this is still a pretty untested area of the law. As a practical matter, Wikileaks is hosted in Sweden, and Assange doesn't live in the United States, so it's hard for the U.S. to prosecute either. However, the government has little trouble charging Bradley Manning (a member of the U.S. military) with "misconduct" charges, including "transferring classified data onto his personal computer and adding unauthorized software to a classified computer system" and "communicating, transmitting and delivering national defense information to an unauthorized source". Buddy431 (talk) 02:16, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

75.33.217.61 -- Treason is defined very narrowly according to the Constitution of the United States, but espionage is quite another matter... AnonMoos (talk) 02:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Whoever leaked the info, if they're within the reach of the US government they would almost certainly be tried for espionage. The constitutional test for treason is very narrow and specific, and hence is seldom used. But there are other illegal activities that are effectively treated as equivalent to treason but without using that word. A charge of treason would open too big a can of worms. Not so with activities such as espionage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Did you read the Brian Manning article that I linked? He was perfectly within his rights to access the data; he wasn't doing any "spying". Rather he was charged with several counts of "misconduct" for transferring the information to someone who wasn't supposed to have the data. Buddy431 (talk) 14:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I thought it had already be established here, more than once, that US courts prosecute anyone anywhere for any reason they choose even if the person involved has never been to the US and is not a US citizen. 92.24.176.72 (talk) 14:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Most US classification regulations are concerned with "supplier side" enforcement — they are meant to be a deterrent to giving away secrets by people who have legal access to them. There are only a handful of laws that actually affect what the government can do to people who get access to secrets illegally and then try to publish them or give them away (the main ones are the Espionage Act, the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, and the Patriot Act). "Treason" and "espionage" are hard charges because you have to prove intent to damage the United States or to enrich the position of an enemy, neither of which are clear in the Wikileaks case. The easy thing to do would be to prosecute (harshly) the people who leaked the information in the first place, because in order to get access to their "secrets," they had to sign away all of their rights to free speech, more or less. But for people and publications that have not done this, it becomes quite difficult to overcome the First Amendment, even in times of war, if you can't prove specific espionage as the intent. This is my understanding of it, anyway, and is certainly not legal advice for would-be leakers! --Mr.98 (talk) 16:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The right doesn't seem to know what "treason" even means. Sarah Palin, for one, is calling it a "treasonous act", no matter that Assange is not an American, and WikiLeaks is not an American website. Corvus cornix_talk 20:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, we all know that Sarah Palin is not well known for her knowledge of geography. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Any Human Heart vs. Earthly Powers

Reading the article Any Human Heart, about the book by William Boyd, it struck me that the book appears to be rather similar to Earthly Powers, by Anthony Burgess. Have any critics commented on this? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean pretty similar like plagiarism or just same structure and topic? Quest09 (talk) 09:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Same structure and topic. DuncanHill (talk) 11:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

You're probably correct that they have a similar topic. The fact that the topic is a pretty big one mitigates it somewhat. Blakk and ekka 13:32, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps conceit would be more in line with what I mean. Writer, life spans defining moments of the 20th century, interactions with real historical figures, that sort of thing. DuncanHill (talk) 13:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

November 29

website to calculate inflation adjustment

looking for website to calculate price adjusted for inflation. for example, S$10,000 at 1998 prices, is worth how much now after inflation adjustment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.216.172 (talk) 08:57, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

This page [13] has a list of them. 213.122.68.179 (talk) 12:18, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

This is an excellent site. Dalliance (talk) 12:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The two sources cited are fine for the economies they cover, but will not help at all in gauging the real (current, inflation-adjusted) value of S$10,000. The tables in this [[14]] will allow you to work out the GDP deflator. That will show 12.83% cumulative inflation in 1999-2009, which is as good a proxy as five minutes work will yield. The answer is that S$10,000 in 1999 would be worth S$8,908 in 2009. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:41, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Saving the Euro

Who's chipping in to save the Euro? Only those countries with the Euro as currency or all EU countries? Quest09 (talk) 13:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Your question appears to rest on an assumption that the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) and efforts such as the recent one to rescue the Irish financial system are only about saving the euro. This is certainly an important part of their purpose. However, these efforts are also made because they aim to prevent European governments and banks from defaulting on their debt. Such defaults could imperil the financial systems not only of countries that use the euro but also of the United Kingdom, which has lent a great deal of money to the euro zone. So the United Kingdom, or at least financial interests in the City of London, have a strong interest in the success of these efforts. That said, funding for the EFSF comes from debt it issues, which is backed only by countries using the euro as currency. Marco polo (talk) 16:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The loan to Ireland AIUI, is a combined one from the EFSF (described above) which is funded by the Eurozone members, the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism which is funded by all the EU member states, and by the International Monetary Fund which is funded by almost all the members of the United Nations. In addition, the UK has offered a seperate GBP7billion loan, because our economies are inter-dependant especially in respect of Northern Ireland. So the answer is everybody - but I suspect Germany will be paying the most, as it is the largest contributor to the first 2 funds mentioned and third largest to the IMF (after the US and Japan; the UK is fourth). Alansplodge (talk) 09:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Argentine peso

The Argentine peso is pretty unstable, so I'm not surprised that Wikipedia disagrees with itself a little bit. But I think we should get this fixed.

The article Argentine peso says the Argentine peso oro sellado (ISO 4217: ARG) was the currency in place from 1881-1969, but the article Argentine peso moneda nacional says that peso moneda nacional (ISO 4217: ARM) was the currency from 1881-1969. The strange part is I can find neither ARM or ARG in the table of codes in the Wikipedia article for ISO 4217. This leads to three questions.

• Which was the actual currency in place at that time? (I have a 1957 coin and it simply says "peso")
• What is the correct ISO 4217 code for that currency?
• Why isn't that code in the various tables on the Wikipedia article for ISO 4217?

Thank you very much for your help. JamaUtil (talk) 18:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The article on the Argentine peso, or at least its history section, looks quite unreliable to me. To begin with, ISO 4217 codes were not created until the 1970s, after the earlier versions of the Argentine peso had ceased to circulate. I doubt that codes would have been created for defunct currencies. I suspect that the codes in the peso article are somebody's invention. Certainly, a citation is needed. Second, oro sellado simply means "gold coin" in Spanish. It is virtually inconceivable to me that Argentina remained on the gold standard without any revaluation from 1881 to 1969, as the article states, given that stronger and more stable economies such as those of the United States, Britain, and Switzerland (!) were forced to devalue relative to gold during the 1930s. During the nearly 90-year period referenced by the article, Argentina's economy went through a number of financial crises, and it is just unimaginable that the currency retained a steady value in terms of gold. Again, citation needed. Marco polo (talk) 21:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, though there do appear to be some obsolete currencies from before the 70s on that ISO page, such as the Austro-Hungarian krone. Does someone here know of/can find a nice reference that I could use to improve the article? JamaUtil (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

It is not completely implausible that there would be ISO codes for obsolete currencies, though the ISO 4217 article doesn't cite any sources. Meanwhile, our article Argentine peso moneda nacional looks much more reliable than Argentine peso, though the former is likewise lacking in sources. If you want to research this, a starting point might by The Crisis of Argentine Capitalism by Paul Lewis. Though its focus isn't monetary history, it is likely to refer to sources on that topic. Marco polo (talk) 01:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Ten Commandments <=> Book of the Dead

Greetings! In the article Ten Commandments "The Egyptian Book of the Dead" is mentioned in the literature, however, not cited in the text. In "The Egyptian Book of the Dead" the "inverse confession" ist found (I did not..., I did not... I did not ... etc.). In the Book of the Dead no "connection" is made to the 10 commandments.

Are there recent references (books, serious papers; not Eso-Stuff) of Old Testamentarians or Egyptologysts, who proove (disprove, discuss) a "connection" or "analogy" or "parallelism" or "relevance" or "non-relevance" of the 10 Commandments and the Inverse Confession in the Book of Dead? Thanks for your time. 62.241.105.149 (talk) 20:59, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

There may have been serious Egyptologists in the 19th and early 20th centuries who argued for a connection between the two, but I haven't seen anything about it in recent Egyptological literature (and I've read a lot of it over the past couple of years). I tend to suspect Egyptologists don't put much stock in the idea nowadays. Jan Assmann published a book several years ago called Moses the Egyptian which examines the connections between Egypt and Judaism, and the way that people have viewed those connections over the centuries. I haven't read it, but it may say something about the Book of the Dead/Ten Commandments relationship. A. Parrot (talk) 02:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

If you want to read the Negative Confession (inverse confession), somebody listed the whole thing here. A. Parrot (talk) 02:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I've read them before. I know one voice (Theol. Prof. 'Old Testament', still alive) who rejects the parallelism due to difference in context. And - as you say - Lit. from the 1920ies that draw parallels. So the question remains: Why is the Book of Dead listet in the 10 Commandment article, when it is not put in context? Greetings 62.241.105.149 (talk) 08:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

A lot of people insert things in articles without proper context, unfortunately. But where is the mention of the Book of the Dead in that article? I don't see it. A. Parrot (talk) 18:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

CTRL+F on the word 'Egyptian' gave me one single hit - "Budge, E. A. Wallis (1967). The Egyptian Book of the Dead. Dover Publications." - right at the bottom, in the 'Further Reading' section, leading me to believe it is not mentioned at all in the article body. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Vatican and democracy

Considering the difficult relationship between the Catholic Church and virtually all democratic political movements before 1945, has the Vatican ever explicitly condoned democracy, or does it still consider it to be a facet of "modernism"? I know from personal experience that the church still officially bemoans the separation of church and state, but I suppose this can theoretically be reconciled with democracy. Obviously the Vatican threw in the towel on democracy after WWII, but did they ever make it official, say with an encyclical? If not, why not? It would seem to me that today many of their worst antagonists are non-democratic (the People's Republic of China, for instance), whereas in democracies the worst they have to put up with is the occasional gay kiss-in. LANTZY^TALK 23:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The Vatican is actually surprisingly closely aligned with democratic ideals, especially since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960's. Inter Mirifica is essentially a defense of freedom of the press; and of the responsibility of Catholics to remain well informed, another essential democratic ideal. That document, and several others from Vatican II, also use the phrasology "the dignity of the individual", which is as core a principle to democracy as there is. Nostra Aetate is another document which presents an interesting balance between the core Christian goal of making believers of all people, and of the core democratic ideal of freedom of religion. Though I myself am no longer Catholic (but am a Christian), I have found this document to present an interesting way to consider the problem of being an evangelical Christian in a pluralistic world. The quote from Part V, "No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned. The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion." source. (bold mine). I'm not sure the Roman Catholic Church has come out, in the positive or negative, for any specific governmental system, but at least since Vatican II, they have been expressly supportive of western liberal ideals of liberty and freedom which are core values to most democratic systems. --Jayron32 04:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Some more relevent catholic documents' from Gaudium et Spes, source

• chapter II, item 26: "Therefore, there must be made available to all men everything necessary for leading a life truly human, such as food, clothing, and shelter; the right to choose a state of life freely and to found a family, the right to education, to employment, to a good reputation, to respect, to appropriate information, to activity in accord with the upright norm of one's own conscience, to protection of privacy and rightful freedom even in matters religious." (bold mine)
• Chapter II, item 28: "Respect and love ought to be extended also to those who think or act differently than we do in social, political and even religious matters."
• Chapter II, item 29: "Human institutions, both private and public, must labor to minister to the dignity and purpose of man. At the same time let them put up a stubborn fight against any kind of slavery, whether social or political, and safeguard the basic rights of man under every political system." (again, as I noted above, respecting liberal ideals of freedom and liberty, without commitment to one political system)
• Chapter III, section 2, item 71 is in general a defense of private ownership and of western democratic economic systems, especially social democracy and capitalism to some degrees, "Private property or some ownership of external goods confers on everyone a sphere wholly necessary for the autonomy of the person and the family, and it should be regarded as an extension of human freedom."
• Chapter IV of that document is basically an attack on totalitarianism, and a demand for basic political freedoms. Without expressly defining democracy, it does a pretty good job of attacking antidemocratic systems. In light of the OP's question, this entire section is probably important, but a few choice quotes:

• from Item 73: "The protection of the rights of a person is indeed a necessary condition so that citizens, individually or collectively, can take an active part in the life and government of the state."
• later in Item 73: "However, those political systems, prevailing in some parts of the world are to be reproved which hamper civic or religious freedom, victimize large numbers through avarice and political crimes, and divert the exercise of authority from the service of the common good to the interests of one or another faction or of the rulers themselves."
• Item 74: "It is clear, therefore, that the political community and public authority are founded on human nature and hence belong to the order designed by God, even though the choice of a political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free will of citizens." There we have it. If that bolded clause is not a defense of democracy, I don't know what is.

I'll let the OP read the rest of the relevent documents. --Jayron32 04:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It is also useful to remember that JPII was as zealously anti-communist as Reagan or Thatcher, if not moreso. However, he (and surely other recent popes) was not very fond of unrestrained capitalism, which is sometimes a product of democracy. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yes, the document I cited directly above, in Chapter III, does seem to come out more on the side of Scandanavian-style social democracy rather than laissez-faire capitalism. While defending private ownership, it does note that of greater importance is economic responsibility towards the underprivileged, and again while avoiding naming any one economic system, it does make clear that responsible economics works towards socioeconomic equality. They are clearly on the side of "wealth redistribution" to some extent. --Jayron32 05:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, excellent responses! LANTZY^TALK 06:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Broad/flattering self-definition

I'm trying to determine if this is an established concept with an accepted nomenclature. Often a partisan of a particular tendency, be it political or philosophical or whatever, will choose to define that tendency very broadly and "rosily", such that it embraces, if not the entire human population, at least a much larger demographic than it actually enjoys. Some examples will illustrate what I mean: Andrew Sullivan's conception of "conservatism" includes just about everyone except for the American right-wing. Libertarians are also especially prone to this practice, frequently concluding that anyone who falls short of Stalinism is a Libertarian "without realizing it". Generally it's marginal or novel political movements that practice this strategy, but I've seen parallels in religions: Scientology comes to mind, with its one-size-fits-all personality tests. The interesting thing is that many political/religious partisans do not do this, and in fact often go the opposite way. Christians and Communists, for instance, often adopt very narrow, exclusive definitions of their respective creeds. I can think of lots of possible neologisms for this phenomenon, but I was wondering if it already had an established name. It would be convenient to have a term on hand so that when this process occurs, I can point it out. LANTZY^TALK 23:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Big tent and populism are related, though neither is exactly what you're looking for. Also related is what my peers call the "law of social proof", which we have no article on: If you see that many, many people like or dislike something, you are more likely to like or dislike it yourself, or at least, you're more likely to try it out if you see that many, many people like it. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It is sort of like the opposite of the no true Scotsman fallacy. Sort of "only Scotsmen do X, therefore if you do X, you are an honourary Scotsman". Using your example of the Libertarian saying everyone is a Libertarian "without realizing it", you might want to look at this page about the World's Smallest Political Quiz, a quiz used by Libertarians in outreach to convince people that they are Libertarians. (That some Libertarians then go on to complain that everyone calls themselves libertarian without really agreeing on much ought to really prompt them into discontinuing said quiz.) The articles linked that are critical of said test might throw up useful phrases to describe the phenomena you are talking about. –Tom Morris (talk) 02:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

First mentions in fiction

Hi. I'm looking for a list of "first mentions" in fiction. First telephone in fiction. First cell phone. First television. Automobiles, airplanes, steam engines, clocks, wristwatch, etc. Does such a list exist? Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 23:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Technology in science fiction? Also see Science in science fiction which points to articles with their own timelines, like Weapons in science fiction. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:57, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Robert A. Heinlein is often credited with writing about waterbeds before they existed in real life. In fact, it's not the only thing. His article has an entire section devoted to things he presaged. Dismas|^(talk) 00:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Great idea Quiddity. I think your idea is the basis of a great new article. I suspect the information you're after is scattered all over the place. Right now I'm really busy but if anyone wants to start it I will be a contributor. H G Wells and Arthur C Clarke would both be major players I reckon. HiLo48 (talk) 01:04, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, I can see this running into difficulties quite quickly, unless great care was taken in matching the 'real' and 'fictional' with consistency, and defining both. Is Leonardo da Vinci's 'helicopter' drawing 'fiction'? Is it a helicopter at all? Having said that, I'm fairly sure I've seen this subject referred to elsewhere (possibly including academic works), so it should make a good candidate. I'd suggest that those interested do some serious Googleing for books etc on the subject. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Just thought of this: The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of. Not directly on-topic, but possibly of relevance (and a brilliant title!). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

And one really cannot omit Sir Francis Bacon's New Atlantis[15], first published in 1624:

We have also engine-houses, where are prepared engines and instruments for all sorts of motions. There we imitate and practise to make swifter motions than any you have, either out of your muskets or any engine that you have: and to make them and multiply them more easily, and with small force, by wheels and other means: and to make them stronger and more violent than yours are; exceeding your greatest cannons and basilisks. We represent also ordnance and instruments of war, and engines of all kinds: and likewise new mixtures and compositions of gun-powder, wild-fires burning in water, and unquenchable. Also fireworks of all variety both for pleasure and use. We imitate also flights of birds; we have some degrees of flying in the air. We have ships and boats for going under water, and brooking of seas; also swimming-girdles and supporters. We have divers curious clocks, and other like motions of return: and some perpetual motions. We imitate also motions of living creatures, by images, of men, beasts, birds, fishes, and serpents. We have also a great number of other various motions, strange for equality, fineness, and subtilty.

Michael Douglas's use of a cellphone on the beach in the original Wall Street was probably the first time most people ever saw a cellphone. Edward Bellamy's political sci-fi novel Looking Backward, published in 1888, imagines a sort of subscription radio broadcasting service, albeit connected to homes by telephone wires. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:24, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

All of you are having trouble spelling Hugo Gernsback. The Bacon reference is quite cool, but Hugo was the one who got modern SF rolling. He invented sex sometime around 1926. PhGustaf (talk) 02:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Er, if Hugo Gernsback (who he) invented sex in 1926, how did people reproduce beforehand? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Pre-sexually, clearly. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The OP says fiction, not just science fiction, btw.

Here's a reference to "telephone" from a 1900 play:

• C. H. CHAMBERS Tyranny of Tears I. 36: (The telephone bell rings.).. There's some one on the telephone forgive me. (Goes to telephone.)

–from the OED, which I am sure will be useful for this purpose (even if its efforts in first-usage tracing are not limited to works of fiction...).

This seems like something someone would have compiled at some point... whether or not, though, yes, we certainly should, good idea! :) or, wait, no -- I forgot about that whole "WP:NOR" thing... :( WikiDao ☯ (talk) 05:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Uh, telephones were relatively commonplace in 1900 and feature in a lot of the fiction from the period. They weren't in private homes yet, but mayors and cops and such would be likely to have one. (IIRC, Sherlock Holmes uses one at some point.) APL (talk) 08:49, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

There are two distinct ways to read this question. The first is, "when did the (existing) technology get mentioned for the first time?", the other is, "when did someone postulate a new technology that later happened to be developed?" The former can be made into a verifiable list without any ambiguity, like the telephone quote above. The latter will end up with tedious arguments about whether the whoosit featured in Amazing Adventures #85 should actually be considered an iPhone or not. (Incidentally, I tend to think the handheld computers in The Mote in God's Eye sound an awful lot like iPhones.) --Mr.98 (talk) 12:37, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The early version of the wireless telephone was mentioned in a funny 1915 song about someone having to spend a whole month's pay to call his girlfriend overseas. Jumping ahead a bit, the 1951 Superman episode called "The Evil Three" has Perry White driving a vehicle with a car phone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It is not really the "first mention " of a submarine, helicopter, spaceship, or radio some ancient work contains a vague and unworkable description of something that allowed one to travel under the sea, through the air, or to other planets, or to talk to someone at a distance. This sounds like a goldmine of original research, with Wikipedia editors inserting their version of the "first mention" of something they are familiar with, unless a reliable secondary source has judged that the gadget counts as the modern invention. There is a lot of room for creative reading of some description of "far seeing" as either a telescope or television, before either had been invented, or as the supposed psychic "remote viewing" ability. We might also distinguish a science fiction description without the modern name from an account in fiction after the term has been actually coined, perhaps when some inventor describes, demonstrates, or patents it. Edison (talk) 16:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The Dick Tracy comic strip used wristwatch radios back in the 30s. I don't know if they were the first cell phone type objects, but they were early. Arthur C. Clarke pretty much invented radio satellites and the space elevator. Corvus cornix_talk 19:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The Arthur Clarke thing is a common misconception. Look up Konstantin Tsiolkovsky and Hermann Noordung who were both decades ahead of him. Also, The Machine Stops is a short story from 1909 that sounds eerily like it's describing the Internet and recent social media (but this is going exactly into the direction Mr. 98 foresaw :) TomorrowTime (talk) 19:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Of the two things mentioned, what Clarke actually invented was the concept that geostationary satellites would be useful as comsats, and that was in a nonfiction article. He also wrote at least one story, I Remember Babylon, about possible social/political implications of satellite television (bypassing government control, you see), but I don't know if he was the first to do that.

In general this is the sort of thing that Wikipedia does very badly in comparison to media controlled by a single editor who can enforce standards, so I hope this does not become a Wikipedia article. But having said that, I can't resist throwing in a mention of Murray Leinster's story A Logic Named Joe. This was written in 1946 when the world hadn't even settled on the word for a "computer", let alone a personal computer -- that's what "a logic" in the title is. And yet it describes a network-based information-repository search architecture that is very much like the "web search engines" invented about 50 years later. Remarkable. (We know it is, because I just remarked on it.) --Anonymous, 00:00 UTC, December 1, 2010.

(Note that the Memex precedes this by a year, and the World Brain predates even that by a decade. Again, this is why this sort of science fiction thing is impossible, in my opinion, for Wikipedia, because the possibilities are pretty endless and we could be here all day debating.) --Mr.98 (talk) 04:28, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Jules Verne foresaw a lot. 92.29.114.35 (talk) 14:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

November 30

Cables about Chinese diplomats

Do the most recent batch of Wikileaked classified cables mention anything about Chinese diplomats? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikileaks cables reveal China 'ready to abandon North Korea'. This is from 'leaked US Embassy cables' though, rather than Chinese diplomats. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Our article on the "diplomatic cables leak" has a "People's Republic of China" section.

The Wikileaks site itself displays a graph of number-of-cables by each embassy-of-origin. Taiwan and Beijing are shown as the ninth and twelfth, respectively, embassies having sent the most cables (of those obtained by Wikileaks), and Tokyo is ranked fourth – so, yes, it seems likely that mention of Chinese diplomats occurs in this batch of documents. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 04:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

CBC News has an article today about China and the recent Wikileaks release, which says eg.:

"In another leaked U.S. document, China's vice-foreign minister He Yafei is quoted as saying North Korea was acting like a 'spoiled child' trying to get the attention of the adult — the United States — by carrying out missile tests in April 2009." (China frustrated with North Korea: WikiLeaks)

WikiDao ☯ (talk) 14:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Conservative vs. Liberal states of United States of America

I was taking the Canadian politics, we learned that Canada is divided into two. The Western Canada is conservative and Eastern Canada, including the Atlantic are liberal. I want to that which states of all 50 states are liberal and which states are conservative? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.32.248 (talk • contribs) 03:45, 30 November 2010

That's extremely simplistic for Canada; actually I could state even more strongly that it is just completely untrue. If you are expecting a similar answer for the US (like, the north is liberal, the south is conservative) it will be just as simplistic and untrue. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

For starters, see red states and blue states. As Adam says, it's an oversimplification. —Kevin Myers 03:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Kevin Meyers) As a first order approximation, look at this map. This is from the 2008 presidential election, and demarcated by county. Obviously it's a gross oversimplification to use the Obama-McCain axis as a proxy for a liberal-conservative axis (whatever that means), but it's better than nothing. It also doesn't take into account population, so that makes it harder to correlate it to number of people. Another visual representation is this map of the 2010 house of representatives results. I'm not sure what the different shades represent, but it's a decent visual representation. In extremely general terms, rural areas are more likely to vote Republican, and urban areas Democrat. Additionally, the Northeast is commonly regarded as more liberal (and indeed, more likely to vote Democrat), while the South (Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama especially) is regarded as more conservative, and indeed, are more likely to vote Republican.

In all cases, though, there are sub-regions (often cities) that vote opposite the way the rest of the immediate surrounding do. And there are also different factors that determine why someone votes Democrat vs. Republican. The Religious right (Jerry Falwell, for example) will vote for Republicans due to their conservative social platform, while proponents of Economic liberalism (like Milton Friedman) will vote for Republicans due to their (comparatively) hands off stance on the economy. Opposite stances apply to the Democrats, and many other factors come into play as well. Buddy431 (talk) 03:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

And there are plenty of right-wing Democrats, especially at the state level. In many cases, southern Democrats are completely indistinguishable from Republicans. However, the opposite, left-wing Republicans, are vanishingly rare even in places like New England. LANTZY^TALK 03:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the Canadian thing is totally wrong. A more accurate generalization is, as in the United States, of a bicoastal liberalism bookending a right-wing interior, which is itself freckled with islands of urban liberalism (e.g. Austin, Texas). In Canada, there's also the complication of Quebec. And in the United States, there are significant cultural, religious, and political differences between the south and the inland west, although both are lumped together as right-wing. Specifically, the western United States is significantly less religious than the east, and therefore less right-wing in the "social" sense. LANTZY^TALK 03:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It isn't really accurate that the western United States is less religious than the east. For example, Utah (in the West) is much more religious than, say, Connecticut (in the East). The Northeast in general is less religious than the interior West or the Great Plains states. A more accurate statement would be that the west coast is less religious than the South or the Midwest. Marco polo (talk) 18:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear here, in U.S. terms, Canada is mostly liberal. Even western Canadians have views that would be considered liberal or moderately liberal in the U.S. political spectrum. For example, the "conservative" Canadian prime minister, Stephen Harper, supports universal health care and a number of other social programs that no Republican in the United States would support. Marco polo (talk) 18:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Most of you say that Canada is liberal but it is not true because the reason the person ask the question is because Alberta is most considered as conservative and Ontario is most liberal and recent mayoral elections in Calgary and Toronto made headlines across the country. Calgary is conservative and yet people decided to choose a liberal as a mayor and Toronto is the opposite. I am a Canadian and I also believe that Western Canada is conservative and Eastern Canada is liberal. I have seen that a lot Liberal Party MPs in the house of commons were elected from Eastern Canada and same thing with NDP MPs, while the Conservative Party MPs were elected from Western Canada.

I didn't say that Canada is liberal. I said that in U.S. terms, Canada is liberal. Canadian criteria for what is liberal are different (simplistically, further to the left) than those in the United States. I made this point because the person who asked the question appears to be from the United States, so I thought it made sense to put this in a U.S. perspective. Of course, I agree that from a Canadian perspective, parts of Canada are (relatively) conservative. Marco polo (talk) 20:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

California is considered a blue state, every single statewide office in the 2010 election went to a Democrat. But in fact, California is divided into blue counties and red counties, the blue counties being most (but not all) of the coastal counties, the red counties being most (but not all) of the inland counties. The blue counties are the largest, population-wise, which is why the Democracts dominate politics in the state. Corvus cornix_talk 22:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's the result of a state-by-state poll asking people if they are conservative or liberal: [16]. The most-conservative states are Wyoming, Mississippi, Utah, South Dakota and Alabama. The most-liberal places are D.C., Rhode Island, Connecticut, Vermont and Massachusetts. Generally, the "liberal belt" of America is in the heavily populated Northeast, the West Coast, and Colorado, while the "conservative belts" are the Deep South, the Mormon West and the northern plains. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Except for Minnesota, in general, which is usually liberal but is becoming increasingly conservative. Corvus cornix_talk 05:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Dave Foley once said on a talk show (either Letterman or Leno) that his native Canada "is so liberal we make Castro look like a Republican." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you're going to be frivolous about it, I could point out that, compared to Canada, Castro is a republican. Canada is a constitutional monarchy, and Cuba is not, because Castro did not want it to be a monarchy. So Castro is a republican, when compared with Canada. 86.161.109.130 (talk) 09:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

No. Castro is not a "Republican". He may be a "republican" in the same way Hitler and Mussolini were "elected" officials of their "republics", but he isn't any closer to George W. Bush than he is to Abraham Lincoln. There are a few other Constitutional monarchies that I'd imagine the IP is familiar with, if you're going to be frivolous about it. Shadowjams (talk) 09:25, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

In any case, I'm pretty sure Cuba was a republic before Castro came along... LANTZY^TALK 20:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

'Incoming!' 'To arms!' and other such cries

I need a list of military calls - the sort of things a sentry will shout when suddenly under attack, or the perimeter is breached - US Marine or British Navy would be best, thanks. Adambrowne666 (talk) 03:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The General Orders for Sentries page isn't very helpful on this point. The US Marines' version is here[17]. It seems remarkably similar to the one on the UK Armed Forces website[18]. Surely a typo - "To salute all officers not cased."? In old British war films, they tend to shout "Call out the guard!" if memory serves. Alansplodge (talk) 15:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

No typo, the "not cased" refers to colors and standards and means basically "unfurled".--Rallette (talk) 18:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The cliched responce to seeing someone emerging from the fog is to shout: "Halt! Who goes there, friend or foe?" "Friend". "Advance, friend". "Fix bayonets" is another movie cliche prior to an infantry charge. 92.28.247.40 (talk) 18:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

[19] from the US Navy (1866) says the officer of the watch was to "inform the Commander of all suspicious movement," which might contraindicate a sentry or lookout doing a lot of general yelling, to allow more of an unexpected response to the approach of enemy boats, rather than letting the enemy know they have been spotted. An officer might issue the order "All hands on deck!". US navy: "Prepare to repel boarders!" and "Repel boarders!". This would not be up to the lookout on duty. "Boat ahoy" is listed as a look-out's hail. page 96: "Enemy" is another verbal signal if an appoaching boat fails to respond with the correct countersign when challenged."Boat ahoy?" is still listed in a US 2005 book: [20]. 1870 British army sentry challenges and responses are at [21]. Verbal signals were probably improvised by infantry in the US Indian Wars of the late 19th century, the US suppression of the Phillipine rebels in the early 20th century, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and more recent conflicts, wherein local forces often tried to infiltrate US or other major power bases or encampments to set off satchel charges or generally to kill the superpower forces, and where there were not trenches and fronts as such. A sentry seeing such an infiltrator might yell some epithet unique to the conflict to alert his comrades to the attack, like "Redskins!" "Krauts!" or "Charlie!" "Edison (talk) 00:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, all - not quite what I'm looking for, though - I might have to do some real work - it's my fault for including military matters in my fiction when I don't know the first thing about the military Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Can someone find a better reference?

a previous version of this question is now on the talk page

On Nov. 18 an article at Guardian.co.uk, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange wanted by Interpol over rape case, quotes Julian Assange's lawyer as saying "Both women have declared they had consensual sexual relations with our client and that they continued to instigate friendly contact well after the alleged incidents. Only after the women became aware of each other's relationship with Mr Assange did they make their allegations against him."

What I am asking for here is a better reference saying the same thing: i.e. one not from his lawyer! Does anyone have a reference to official Swedish announcement with the same effect? Or another source confirming that this is the specific charge? Thank you. 82.234.207.120 (talk) 08:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

If this is about editing our article(s), then The Guardian is a good-enough source for the news story. The Guardian journalists were at liberty to consult Interpol, the Swedish court documents, and also had the interview with Assange's lawyer. If they didn't include much detail at this stage it was probably because their estimate is that this is very much an open case and could evolve in various ways over the next days or weeks. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

That is a VERY big stretch. If the only reference anyone can dig up to the actual charge the one above by the defendant's lawyer, then so be it. I think we have some very good researchers here, however, and I think someone can find a better reference than the lawyer of the accused. I believe in you guys. 86.212.63.241 (talk) 10:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The Washington Post back in August had more detail, but a link within it has gone dead. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Re. "I believe in you guys" – well we believe in you, too, 86.212.63.241! :)

May I suggest at this point that you read our article on this topic? I think it discusses this question fairly well, and provides many good links to sources. If you can find any better sources, though, please by all means work the information in them into the article yourself! Thanks, WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

China blockade

China blocked shipments of rare earth minerals going to Japan because the country had detained one of its citizens. Considering electronics is a major industry in Japan, this could have seriously hurt their economy if it was a long term blockade. Could China do the same thing to us? I'm not just talking about rare earth material either. What could they withhold that would hurt our own economy? Outsourcing? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 11:15, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

By 'us', I take it you mean 'US' in capitals? You might like to take a look at this to see what is traded between the two countries. Electronics appears to be on the top of most of those lists, too. It also mentions that the US is China's top trading partner - I am not sure if the situation is mutual, though. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

China has by far the largest reserves of rare earths in the world. However, the United States has the second-largest mine at Mountain Pass, California, a facility which has been non-operational for many years. Sometime in mid-2011 it should be coming back online, which will ease supply shortages; presumably the capacity of the mine will be sufficient for both the U.S. and other countries affected by any Chinese export restriction. I don't know if there are other strategic materials that only China has. Supply shortages would drive up the price, which of course would make Molycorp Inc.'s mine more profitable when it eventually starts shipping. Antandrus (talk) 17:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course many consumer goods are no longer made in the United States. In a scenario of conflict with China, an export embargo on China's part would lead to shortages of certain consumer goods. For many of these, however, there are alternative suppliers, mainly in other Asian countries. More critically, China may be the sole supplier of certain critical electronic components, a lack of which could cripple a military effort on the part of the United States. I would expect that U.S. military planners are now scrambling to arrange for domestic supplies of any such components. As Antandrus has noted, security planners in the United States are now very focused on the rare-earth issue and are working to support the development of domestic and other reliable supplies. Marco polo (talk) 18:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Is this likely to be a spur to more recycling of components? Itsmejudith (talk) 18:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I would expect so -- particularly things like the battery in the Toyota Prius, which used 10 to 15 kg of lanthanum and 1kg of neodymium per vehicle. [22] (I think the current models have gone to a lithium-ion battery.) If the price of rare earths becomes high enough, recycled components become like a high-grade ore in that it's a lot easier, and environmentally less messy, to extract rare earths from cast-off electronics than from strip-mined rocks (where the byproducts include radioactive waste among other things). Antandrus (talk) 21:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

When the supply dries up, ingenuity will find a way. One example is the rubber shortage during WWII, which led to the development of artificial rubber for use in tires, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

By the way, it's not actually legally a "blockade" (which is an act of war under international law). AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Government Grants

I have been trying to find the government grants for businesses and the purchasing of homes. When I do research on the Web I seem to be taken to sites that just want your money. I need help with finding the true source for such grants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Berthanna (talk • contribs) 15:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

You'll have to tell us which country/region you're asking about. Karenjc 15:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Regent Princess Isabel and the scandal of the ball

I once read a novel where I heard that the regent Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, in connection to her anti-slavery oppinions, made a scandal by dancing with a coloured man - a mulatto - on a ball. It was a way of demonstrating the idea of equality between the races. Of course, this was from a novel, but I wonder if it was taken from a true event? Does anyone know?--85.226.47.79 (talk) 17:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

According to this paper (p. 9), she "opened the ball to celebrate the Lei Aurea with a mulatto engineer". Clarityfiend (talk) 02:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Powerful industries suppress health advice in the US?

Is the final sentance in this excerpt from the Unsaturated fat article true? "Although unsaturated fats are healthier than saturated fats,[3] the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recommendation stated that the amount of unsaturated fat consumed should not exceed 30% of one's daily caloric intake (or 67 grams given a 2000 Calorie diet). The new dietary guidelines have eliminated this recommendation at the request of the meat and dairy industries." The recommended upper limit for saturated fat is only 20 grammes per day in the UK. Thanks 92.28.247.40 (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Aaargh, this isn't neutral. We are claiming far too much without any sources. Even the BBC health link has gone dead. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

To clarify, the sentance I am asking about is "The new dietary guidelines have eliminated this recommendation at the request of the meat and dairy industries". Is that true? Thanks 92.28.247.40 (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It's two questions. 1) Has the recommendation of limiting the amount of unsaturated fat gone from the dietary guidelines? 2) (If so) was that at the request of the meat and dairy industries? 1) is easier to address than 2). A new version of dietary guidelines was probably commented on in various mainstream media. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, 35 total fat minus 7 saturated fat = 28 un-saturated fat. So it looks like a bit less than that. See page 4. Remember, the FDA is financed by the companies it regulates, therefore it feels duty bound to look after their financial health, so it is unlikely to suppress it - is it.--Aspro (talk) 20:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Please explain what you mean and how that relates to the question asked. 92.28.247.40 (talk) 22:11, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, nobody seems surprised, shocked, or concerned. 92.24.183.235 (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

There's been substantial criticism of the FDA and other organizations in promoting unnuanced "low fat" diets that substitute sugars for the removed fat calories. A dozen wikipedia articles address that issue but I can't find the specific one that is on point. That process certainly isn't unique to the U.S. FDA. Agricultural subsidies have market distorting consequences, as do food labeling and education campaigns. That people have grown fatter under those campaigns is sadly obvious. Shadowjams (talk) 09:20, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Calgary and Toronto mayors vs. U.S. cities mayors

When was the last time that any U.S. cities (largest ones I mean) had this type of situation where a liberal city has a conservative mayor like Toronto, Ontario and where a conservative city has a liberal mayor like Calgary, Alberta? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.149.63 (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Check the mayoral history of New York City, for one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The mayor of New York is a conservative (by NYC standards) ex-Republican. The mayor of Houston is a lesbian Democrat. Phoenix also has a Democratic mayor, as do Fort Worth and Charlotte. Whether they are "liberals" is hard to say as most municipal issues don't fall easily into a liberal/conservative spectrum. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

In Toronto the major issue was money, so to the extent the election was about conservatism vs. liberalism, it was fiscal conservatism that won. See Rob Ford#Toronto mayoral election. --Anonymous, 03:06 UTC, December 1, 2010.

Ths situation in New York City highlights the fact that comparing Republican vs. Democrat accross the country is tricky. New England and New York Republicans often come out as more liberal than Southern ( or Blue Dog) Democrats. Compare someone like William Weld, a Massachusetts Republican with Heath Schuler, a North Carolina Democrat. They served in slightly different eras, but Weld is easily more liberal on almost any measure than Schuler is. --Jayron32 03:45, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

In the 1930's, New York's Republican Mayor Fiorello La Guardia was an ally of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's New Deal, which was generally (sometimes bitterly) opposed by the Democratic Party's local organization (see for example Al Smith). If you consult New York City mayoral elections for 1933 to 1941, you'll see that The Bronx and Brooklyn, the most-Democratic (even Socialist) boroughs in other elections, both then and now, gave La Guardia his strongest support, while Queens and Staten Island, now the most Republican of boroughs, gave the strongest support to his Democratic opponents. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Another example is Richard Riordan, the former Republican Mayor of Los Angeles, a very Democratic city, for eight years (1993-2001). However (as an example of the test I mention below), he failed to win election as Governor of California in 2002. With the impending retirement of Gov. Donald Carcieri, the two highest elected Republican officials in extremely-Democratic Rhode Island will be the mayors of Warwick (Scott Avedisian) and Cranston (Allan Fung). —— Shakescene (talk) 06:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

¶ Municipal issues often differ from national ones. It was not unknown for Republican businessmen in the U.S. a century ago (e.g. Charles A. Coffin, the president of General Electric in Schenectady, New York whose mayor was Rev. George R. Lunn, assisted by Walter Lippman) to support a Socialist mayor because he was considered to be "clean government" progressive who made his policy one of impartial efficiency rather than political patronage. (Workingmen and their unions disliked wasteful high taxes and corrupt, inefficient, politically-biased police forces as much as anyone else. So did independent intellectuals and professionals.) As in other countries, the test comes when a successful and popular elected municipal official tries for state or national office in an electorate that's inclined to support another party. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:45, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

India conservative liberal

Like the U.S. conservative and liberal states question, which indian states are more conservative (meaning BJP) and which states are more liberal (meaning Indian Congress)?

Kerala and West Bengal have communist-led governments... --Wrongfilter (talk) 21:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The terms conservative and liberal in the American sense are not apt to describe Indian politics. Three states, Kerala, West Bengal and Tripura, have governments led by the Communist Party of India (Marxist). The BJP can be described as a more rightwing party, but is not really like the US Republicans. States like Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh are BJP strongholds. Congress is not, by any means, a liberal party. Congress is pretty much strong in most states, but did lose a lot of ground in states like Uttar Pradesh and Bihar in recent years. --Soman (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Soman, someone who would in the UK be in the Labour Party would be drawn to which party in Indian politics? Itsmejudith (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Difficult question. In theory there is a plethora of parties representing a democratic socialist outlook (virtually all off-shoots of Janata Dal), but in reality that is a label that really doesn't mean anything (rather these parties tend to be to centred around individual leaders, willing to seek coalition with anyone willing to give them ministerial posts and relying of caste-based clientelism for political support). The Socialist Party tradition pretty much died out through the merger into Janata Party. In West Bengal, such a person (or at least a person who would be a soft leftist inside the UK Labour Party) might find the Democratic Socialist Party (Prabodh Chandra) interesting, it has a more direct connection to the old Socialist Party legacy than say the Samajwadi Party. There is also the Samajwadi Jan Parishad, which very small on the national level though. There was, not sure if it still exists, a platform inside the Congress party with a social democratic orientation and which sought contacts with the international social democracy. At some point, that would have been a natural referent for a UK Labour politician. --Soman (talk) 14:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It does seem complex indeed. The individual-leader groupings like those you mention used to be common in French politics of the centre and right, but have over many years resolved themselves into ideologically-based parties. From what you say, India seems to have gone in the opposite direction. Of course, one should expect there to be differences in the political cultures of different Indian states. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes. The French and Indian development have gone in opposite directions (although not 100%, there are some complexities in both cases). In India, political parties have mushroomed over the years. In the first post-Independence election, Congress (representing the broad national mainstream) was dominant, and its main challengers consisted of ideologically profiled political parties with national agendas (Communists, Socialists, Hindu Rightists). After the Janata Party experiment and the decay of the Congress in the 1980s and 1990s (a process that was only superficially blocked by the assassinations of Indira and Rajiv Gandhi), new political parties mushroomed in India, generally based on one or a few charismatic leaders, caste equations and regional interests. These parties have no real ideological backbone, they can align with the left one day, BJP the next and Congress the day after. Most of the parties in the Indian parliament today fall in this category. --Soman (talk) 16:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the person who ask the above question was trying to find out either which states or region are liberal of conservative. I think in my opinion I think Southern India is liberal due to the fact that it is the only region of the country that has significant Christian population. I agree with the West Bengal being liberal because not a single West Bengali government was BJP. Gujarat being a conservative, hmmm, maybe but it is the home of Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru Ji. I amazed that none of you said about Mahashtra. I see it as a conservative due to the fact the killer of Mahatma Gandhi was a Marathi and the party Shiv Sena is a Marathi. I agree about Uttar pradesh being stronghold of BJP because it is religious. I am also amazed that none of you said anything about the Eastern India.

Again, what does 'liberal' and 'conservative' mean? And secondly, what are the criteria for analysis? Gujarat is the birthplace of Gandhi, but that doesn't really have any impact on politics today. Gujarat is, in my view, the most clearly right-wing region in India today: 1. Stronghold of BJP, and stronghold of rightist faction inside BJP as well, 2. weak leftist tradition, the left is largely absent from Gujarati politics (with exceptions in some enclaves), 3. a more market/trade oriented society, Gujaratis are often traders outside Gujarat as well, 4. rampant communal divisions.

(and btw, no South India is not the only region that has significant numbers of Christians. Goa and the North-East have larger, by percentage, Christian populations. Nor are Indian Christians necessarily the most progressive section in the country)

--Soman (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, Soman, you said that Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh are BJP stronghold. Are there other states of India that are BJP stronghold and what about other states? Which states are Congress stronghold?

Sales Tax

Should a business impose a sales atx on the rental of a GYM locker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.63.216.58 (talk) 21:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Sales tax laws vary significantly from state to state. You would have to consult the laws for that particular state. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Your IP address appears to locate to North Carolina. According to that state's Department of Revenue, North Carolina's sales tax applies to the lease or rental of property. So a North Carolina business is legally required to impose a sales tax on rentals. Marco polo (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd caution that the above analysis from Marco polo lacks the subtlety you'd get from an attorney. For example, it may be possible to argue that the locker itself is not being rented, but the use of the locker, or the space that lies within the physical boundaries of the walls of the locker but not the physical material of the locker itself (similar to the way many condominium associations own the walls of the condos but none of the space inside). One of these approaches may not qualify as "property", thus qualifying as a loophole, avoiding the need for a sales tax collection. If you have a serious question about this, contact an attorney who's familiar with this area of North Carolina law. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The tone of the question suggests the OP thinks he's getting ripped off. But it's not quite the right question: "Should a business impose a sales tax..." As Marco indicates, it is the state that imposes the sales tax, and the businesses merely collect it and turn it over to the state. And you're right that the OP should consult a lawyer, on the off chance that the business is charging a "sales tax" that they might be pocketing. I doubt it, but it's better to ask the experts. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Prince Michael of Kent – Royal cypher

I am interested in the crowned 'm' cypher seen here and here – does anyone know anything about its history and significance? Anyone know where I could find an enlarged or vector version? Thanks, ╟─TreasuryTag►Speaker─╢ 22:23, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

December 1

Religion of Oscar Wilde

How did Oscar Wilde actually define himself religiously before his final conversion to Roman Catholicism the day before his death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.75.46.226 (talk) 02:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Not in any simple way. Page numbers are from my 1988 Penguin reprint of Richard Ellmann’s biography Oscar Wilde. Wilde was baptised and raised a Protestant and nominally remained so, although he exhibited an interest in Catholicism throughout his adult life. (A Catholic priest, Father Fox, claimed to have instructed the four-year-old Wilde and his brother, and baptised them in the Catholic Church, during a summer holiday in Glencree, County Wicklow, at the request of Wilde's mother Jane.)(18) Wilde expressed an interest in Catholicism during his time at Trinity College Dublin, although his father threatened to disinherit him if he converted.(32) At Oxford he admired Henry Edward Manning and John Henry Newman, and was urged to convert by his friend David Hunter Blair, an enthusiastic recent convert, but his father’s disapproval still prevented him. “By June 1875” Ellman writes, “Wilde’s interest in Catholicism was ostentatious enough to astonish his visitors”(51-52) and in 1878 “he came as close ... to becoming Catholic as he ever would until his deathbed” under the influence of Rev. Sebastian Bowden of the Brompton Oratory . Wilde actually arranged to be received into the Church, but on the appointed day he sent a bunch of apologetic lilies in his place.(90-91) Throughout his life he grasped opportunities for spiritual and theological debate, and seems to have held differing opinions at different times. Ellmann quotes him saying, on the day of his release from prison, "I look on all the different religions as colleges in a great university. Roman Catholicism is the greatest and most romantic of them."(495). However, he also said: "The Catholic Church is for saints and sinners alone. For respectable people the Anglican church will do", and told his friend and lover Robbie Ross that Catholicism "isn't true".(495) - Karenjc 18:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Why did america invent the submarine during the rev. war?

Why was it invented! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iluvgofishband (talk • contribs) 02:22, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

To try to sink an enemy ship. See Submarine#First_military_submarines. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, To sink ships. Actually, I'm not sure you could say it was invented' then anyway. According to the Wikipedia article Submarine, "The first submersible with reliable information on its construction was built in 1620 by Cornelius Jacobszoon Drebbel, a Dutchman in the service of James I of England.". The Turtle, built in 1775, seems to be the first military submersible, and was intended to sink ships of the Royal Navy, though it was unsuccessful. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(There is nothing more pointless or arbitrary than trying to say when something was specifically "invented" for the first time, so please let's just jettison that aspect of the question...)

A better way to answer the question is to consider what the forces were that would lead to such a machine becoming seen by both sides as a legitimate instrument of war, rather than just a curiosity. The Confederates fielded many submarines, which is interesting because really nobody else had invested as much in them previously. The military reason is rather simple: the Union had clear "conventional" naval superiority and the ability to blockade Southern ports (see Union blockade). The response by the Confederacy (Union_blockade#Confederate_response) was to develop a number of boats which would try to balance this in their favor — boats that would be somewhat "asymmetrical" in their ability to sink enemy ships of the type the Union was deploying, without trying to balance the Union force ship-for-ship. They had only limited success, but that's the obvious impetus for looking into submarines. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The 1775 craft was also targeting a blockade. Submarines are inherently dangerous, but in warfare the risk is thought to be worth it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Again, I think this generalization ("in warfare," etc.) misses out on the specific contingencies here. Specific technologies are pursued because they are thought to give specific benefits. The context of why submarines get used when is crucial to whether or not the risk is considered "worth it" or not. Saying that the goal was to sink ships does not illuminate the reasons why that particular means of trying to sink ships was pursued at that particular time. --Mr.98 (talk) 04:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Certainly. In the case of submarines, stealthiness is the key. One technology drives another, so the stealth advantage has been compromised over time, but it can still be an effective weapon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

According to the articles the first known working submarine was built in 1620 in England by a Dutch gentleman. See History of submarines. 92.29.116.196 (talk) 11:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

A US TV network commissioned the building of an undersea rowboat such as the Dutch gentleman might have had the technology to build. It was possible for a wooden hulled boat, with modified oars operated through leather covered ports, to submerge and row a short distance underwater. The problem of leakage through the greased leather was very severe, and there was quickly a buildup of carbon dioxide. The Turtle sub used by Bushnell in the American Revolution has also been re-created, and its rotary propellers were a much better idea than oars. The carbon dioxide buildup was a problem, depth maintenance was a problem, and it could not go very far or very fast, but with some development it might have been able to attach a bomb to a ship as was intended and get safely away before the clockwork detonated it. Was the ability of a chemical such as lithium hydroxide to absorb carbon dioxide not known by the 1770's? The LIOH article does not give the chronology of its development. Did "natural philosophers" by 1776 know that air had a "life supporting" minority portion as well as a large inert portions and the small harmful product of respiration, CO₂? A human operating a submarine would be knocked out by the CO₂ buildup long before the oxygen became too depleted to support life. Wasn't compressed air in a tank attached to the sub technologically feasible by the end of the Revolutionary War? It could have extended the mission, provided bouyancy, and allowed quicker blowing of the ballast from the sump than the handpump used by Bushnell. It is a bit surprising that by the time of the US Civil War, the Hunley's builders had not introduced chemical CO₂ scrubbing or compressed air tanks for the crew to be able to breath underwater for an extended period. Pressure vessels, pressure regulators , gauges and valves and compressors were by then old technology used in steam engines, and compressed air had been tried in subs by that time. Edison (talk) 16:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I imagine that propellors were unknown in 1620, but by 150 years later the available technology had advanced. 92.15.5.182 (talk) 10:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Kalmar Union

I heard that people are debating the possiblity for an Iberian Union, but is it possible for Sweden, Norway and Denmark to form back into the Kalmar Union by either the abolition of all three Scandinavian monarchy or the union of the three crowns.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 04:48, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Why would they want to? Within the European Union, the general drift is away from centralism to localism: devolution.--Wetman (talk) 04:54, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

There were a very particular set of accidents that led to the Kalmar Union, that are unlikely to be repeated today. You might also want to read Norwegian romantic nationalism to see why they wouldn't be particularly keen on it. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

To what end? Even if the crowns were dynastically united, it would likely have little to no effect; the monarchy doesn't set domestic or foreign policy for any of those countries; at best a modern Kalmar Union would be no different than the Commonwealth of Nations; independent countries with independent governments that share a common monarch... --Jayron32 06:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

See also Scandinavism. It had some force in the 1800s. Now, it is hardly the tradition for countries to unite anymore, especially not when things go well (and they have not been separated by international politics, like North/South Yemen or Korea) Jørgen (talk) 09:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

There has been some recent discussion in the Nordic countries about the possibility of union: see [a brief article from the Economist] or the [Nordic Council site]. Nobody thinks it is a realistic near-term goal, but the idea isn't completely dismissed, either. 130.188.8.12 (talk) 12:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

There was a real possibility for some sort of Nordic unionism in the immediate backdrop of WWII. However, the Cold War pretty much killed that possibility. Norway and Denmark joined NATO, Sweden and Finland positioned themselves as neutral (and the latter had a very complex relationship with the Soviet Union). The final nail in the coffin was when Denmark joined the EEC. --Soman (talk) 17:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow it's interesting. Why would this guy choose Queen Margarethe II over King Harald V and King Carl XVI Gustaf? Is she the most popular monarch?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Borders of U.S states

Why are the borders of U.S states straight? 222.252.102.226 (talk) 07:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Only some of them are. Start with U.S. state and then go to each individual state and you'll likely find out how their individual borders were determined. In general, the western states tend to be large with straight edges simply because they were sparsely populated and there were few natural borders such as rivers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Each state's history of its borders is somewhat unique, the book How The States Got Their Shapes particularly useful in answering your question. Look it up at your local library. The Wikipedia article Territorial evolution of the United States also give a good overview. A gross oversimplification would be to say that the Western states, which tend to be large and blocky, were established during the era of the railroad, when rivers and coastlines stopped being as important for transportation and when people could travel farther in a day. Eastern states tended to form borders along rivers and/or mountain ranges, and all of the Eastern states, save perhaps Vermont, had their borders drawn so that they would have access to either the Atlantic Ocean, the Great Lakes, or the Mississippi River Basin (often via the Ohio River). Thus, in the east, every state had deep-water access to the Atlantic via some route. It also explains the little panhandles in states like New Hampshire and Pennsylvania. In the age of railroads, when goods could be transported more efficiently over land, such water access was less important, and mountain ranges posed less of a problem; with water transport portage was a real issue; but trains could transport goods over mountains somewhat easier, making them less important as border delineators. In the west, lacking the need to make borders so states could either a) reach waterways or b) avoid having land on two sides of mountain ranges meant that the states could be set up big and squareish, as many of them are. --Jayron32 07:45, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I have found the book American Boundaries: the Nation, the States, the Rectangular Survey, by Bill Hubbard, Jr. (2009), better in general than How the States got their Shapes. Both address the question of why so many US states have straight line borders (and river borders too), mostly those carved out of the federal "public domain" (whose borders were largely determined by Congress). But I feel compelled to point out that How the States got their Shapes contains several mistakes and some misinformation, and does not cite sources. Its most persistent mistake, from my reading, is its repeated claim that borders along the 42nd parallel north date to the British-Spanish Nootka Convention of 1792. This is wrong—they date to the US-Spanish Adams–Onís Treaty of 1819. The Nootka Convention did not result in any specific boundary line being created or even suggested—which was a point Spain insisted on and received, despite the larger overall diplomatic defeat the conventions represented. The book also makes a number of claims about why Congress made certain decisions about the size and borders of states (especially something about aiming for a certain number of degrees latitude by degrees longitude, if I recall), but because it does not cite any sources it is very difficult or impossible to verify these claims. For some of them I tried to verify (the point about degrees most of all)—and even searched and browsed through way too much of the Congressional Record—to no avail. So, take its pronouncements with a grain of salt.

The short (well, shortish) answer, as I understand, is that Congress was generally more concerned with the "big picture" of how territories would eventually become states and the political ramifications (seats in Congress, mostly), then they were about creating states with some kind of cultural unity or "natural borders". That new states would add two senators and any number of representatives to Congress was an extremely politicized matter in the decades leading up to the Civil War. In some cases, according to Hubbard, Congress essentially forced new states to accept a smaller size than the state desired, in order to leave open the possibility of creating more free, or slave states in the future. Also, Hubbard, in American Boundaries, argues that Congress deliberately established a tradition of creating states that did not conform to natural boundaries (large rectangular states enclosing very different kinds of landscapes) in order to create a degree of "disunity"—a method dating to James Madison, especially his view about "factions" and republics as described in Federalist No. 10. I found this a particular interesting point. Of course, the notion of straight-line state borders goes back beyond Madison, at least to Thomas Jefferson and his somewhat strange proposal for new states. Hubbard argues that Madison disagreed with Jefferson on how new states should be made, and Madison's vision became the one Congress followed. However, both Madison and Jefferson espoused straight lines—and few others at the time were as interested and politically active in the borders and shapes of future new states. In short, the tradition of using straight lines for new states dates back to the pre-railroad era of the very first decades of the United States under the Constitution—and arguably back to colonial times, at least for parts of the US where straight line boundary surveys for everything from states/colonies to city blocks, was "fashionable" and "modern". There are a number of additional points made in Hubbard's book about why straight lines were preferred. Pfly (talk) 09:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

A good read about how some of these lines were drawn is The Fabric of America: How Our Borders and Boundaries Shaped the Country and Forged Our National Identity (2007) by Andro Linklater. —Kevin Myers 13:58, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The impression is also somewhat incorrect. I only see three states that do not have at least a section of irregular border following a river or mountain range: Colorado, Utah and Wyoming. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 14:54, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

And many of the eastern states have an east-west straight line somewhere (or north-south in a few cases), vaguely perpendicular to the nearest large body of water. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Every single state, save Hawaii, has a straight line in some part of its border. Pfly (talk) 06:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

What might help here is to explain how and why borders in the United States are different from those in many parts of Europe and Asia. Let's start with Europe and Asia. In those regions, borders developed over many hundreds of years, as feudal overlords defined their territories, often using natural features or traditional boundaries established between village lands. As centralized states developed, they accumulated a collection of these ancient territories, forming irregular borders with neighboring states. The process of drawing borders in the United States (and in Canada, Australia, Africa, and to a lesser extent Latin America) was very different. In these regions, colonial officials drew straight lines on maps to demarcate administrative subdivisions because this was often more convenient than using natural features, which in many cases were not yet known or anyway not yet surveyed. After the United States (and Canada) gained independence, their officials continued to draw straight lines on maps to demarcate territories that had not yet been settled or were only thinly settled by people of European origin. They did this for administrative convenience and because they did not care very much about the territorial traditions of the indigenous people who were living in these territories. Marco polo (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I recall a French film in which a Marxist university professor ridiculed the straightness of US internal borders (in comparison with Soviet borders). Can't remember the name though. --Soman (talk) 17:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

So to heck with him. Edison (talk) 05:32, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Copyright question

An image is needed for an article on a man who died in 1998. I have obtained an image of him from a BBC site which I've downloaded onto my PC. Would this image be considered fair-use seeing as the subject is dead, and future images are an impossibility? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The reference desk is not supposed to provide legal advice. And in any case, it depends on what kind of article this is (private use? newspaper of general circulation?) and what jurisdiction you are asking about. Since you mention the BBC, then assuming you are talking about English law (or Australian or Canadian law), the applicable concept is "fair dealing", not fair use. "Fair dealing" applies to distinct categories of dealings. Under English law, your dealing would have to fall within categories such as research and study, review and criticism, news reporting, etc. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I need it for a Wikipedia article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Ask at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions . Itsmejudith (talk) 12:43, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion. I have since posted my question there.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Did Arnold Böcklin paint a picture called "The Return"?

Böcklin Die Heimkehr "The Homecomming" 1887

First, read this diff.

Now, according to my sources that I outlined here, and to which I also alluded here, the name of the Arnold Böcklin painting in question is very clearly "The Return".

To settle this, I've had a good look around Googlopolis but I cannot find any painting by Böcklin called "The Return" or anything even vaguely like that.

Is it perhaps better known by another name? Or did the source get the name of the painter wrong? Rachmaninoff definitely knew and loved Böcklin's work, as he was inspired to compose Isle of the Dead by the Böcklin painting of the same name. But that does not necessarily mean it was Böcklin who also painted "The Return" which supposedly inspired the Prelude in B minor. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I stumbled over a reference to a German book Arnold Böcklin, Die Gemälde (published in 1977, ISBN-10: 3724504047 / ISBN-13: 978-3724504047, 582 pp) which is supposed to list all of his oevre including photos. Maybe the Victorian state library has a copy. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

This book has a description so I think it must be "The Homecomming" meltBanana 19:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thank you, MeltBanana, that is definitely the one. I shall pass that information on. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

What is a scorching bicyclist?

Resolved

 – –Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 08:51, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Prohibitionist in the Mikado

In Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado the song "As some day it may happen" contains the line, in one version "And that singular anomaly, the prohibitionist" (replaced in another version by "the lady novelist"). What was a prohibitionist and what was he/she seeking to prohibit in 1885? --rossb (talk) 00:08, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The OED gives "A person who advocates or favours the introduction of a prohibition, esp. one restricting the manufacture, sale, or transport of alcoholic drinks", with English newspaper quotes from 1842 and 1866 which are rather ambiguous, but probably referring to alcohol in some way. Algebraist 00:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Every recording I've heard of that song says "the lady novelist". Was "prohibitionist" in an early version, or was that added some time later? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

It may be a reference to the Lord Chamberlain, who banned The Mikado for a time (ref Hansard 10 June 1907). Our article for another G&S comic opera, Utopia, Limited says "Gilbert also throws some barbs at the Lord Chamberlain's office, as he loved to do." -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

This[23] article is pretty good. The "lady novelist" line is original, put different performances have used different lyrics over the years. It's not unusual for G&S lyrics, especially topical to be tweaked to be more relevant to modern audiences. PhGustaf (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Ooo, tasty Hansard link. Any idea what the play poking fun at the Kaiser was? 86.178.229.168 (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"The complete annotated Gilbert and Sullivan" says that "the lady novelist" was the original wording and that it was changed by the author to "the critic dramatist" or "the scorching bicyclist" or "the scorching motorist" in Edwardian revivals - and Sir Henry Litton later changed it in the 1920's and 30's to "the prohibitionist" and in 1942 to "the clothing rationist" - so evidently, the intent is to change the target of this acrimony to whoever was the more hated figure of the times. "The wall street banker" might be appropriate for 2010. SteveBaker (talk) 01:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Though it really doesn't matter who you put upon the list, for they'd none of 'em be missed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Of that there is no manner of doubt; no probable, possible shadow of doubt; no possible doubt whatever.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Who says wikipedia ain't got no culture? :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Even to this day, if you hear the D'Oyly Carte perform the piece, they will change those particular lyrics. I heard them in 1992-ish where the list included the big-toe fetishist. Marnanel (talk) 16:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

That was Sir Henry Lytton, SteveBaker. --ColinFine (talk) 21:53, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've been meaning to ask this for a while and an archive search turned up this neat conversation. I've known G&S lyrics to change and on the recording I have, Ko-Ko sings "scorching bicyclist". The examples listed above make sense (contextually with the times), but what on earth is a scorching bicyclist? I can't find anything on search results, image or otherwise. I always imagine, simply, a bicyclist who has lit herself (the gender remains the same) on fire. Any other ideas? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 12:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps metaphorically "burning up the road", i.e. racing or just going too fast in the opinion of whoever came up with that phrase? Kind of a lame complaint, though. But during the late Victorian era, there was kind of a public mania about bicycle racing (at least in the US), so that might have inspired the comment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

'Scorch' was 1980's adolescent lingo for anything really fast, cool, hot, edgy, or trendy. --Ludwigs2 17:13, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary, to scorch, v. 4. (intransitive) To move at high speed (so as to leave scorch marks on the ground) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 17:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Likewise, this source[24] which might or might not be a wiki; but "scorch" and "burn" are both used in the metaphorical sense, i.e. to be going so fast that you might leave a trail of fire on the pavement. There are many pop culture images that playfully render that metaphor literally. One obvious case would be the DeLorean in the first Back to the Future, whose tires left burning trails as the car sped off from 1955 to 1985. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Scorching bicyclist seems to have been a bit of a meme way back in them olden days. "Lady cyclists", in particular, were frowned upon as travelling at higher speeds would unduly increase the vibration and friction between the saddle and the "private" parts of the cyclistesse. The guardians of morale in them days clearly had little else to do but to speculate on the utterly despicable possibility of such a debased personage experiencing a pedalling orgasm. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks guys! – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 08:51, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I remember my mother telling me that when she was a schoolgirl in the early 1930s, she and her friends would giggle at the line "Sunbeams scorching all the day" from the hymn Forty Days and Forty Nights, with its apparent reference to speeding cars. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

It is quite common - almost tradional - for "little list" to be updated to include topical entries. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Racism and mixed-race individuals

Racism, and race-based hate groups, always seem to be centered around supporting or opposing one of the traditional ethnicities - Caucasian, African, Hispanic, South Asian, East Asian, etc. Suppose you were half East Asian, half (black) African. And suppose you discriminated against full black Africans and full East Asians. You'd still be "a racist", right? Are there any document hate groups that support mixed ethnicity and denigrate more "pure" (though that's clearly a poor choice of wording) ethnicities? I'm wondering if there are any pan-racial supremacists, essentially! The Masked Booby (talk) 12:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Not quite the same thing, but see Paper Bag Party. An instance of mixed race being held as superior over the less mixed, by members of the same race. But that's an assimilation of the mindset of the larger racist society. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:14, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Racism is an illogical attitude that can affect any of us. However, to a certain extent, prolonged social contact on equal terms with people in the "other" group protects you. When the mixed-race person you talk about was a child, as soon as he uttered something prejudiced about black Africans his mother would have said "hang on, you're talking about me and Granny". As soon as he said something silly about East Asians his father would have said "is that how you feel about Auntie, and about me?". But it's possible that the whole family would harbour mistaken views about Native Americans, especially if they had never met any. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

TMB -- I don't know of any ideology that specially favors mixed-race individuals above both or all of the sources of their mixture, but the reverse has been true: In a number of historical contexts there has been special contempt for "half-breeds". who are "neither one nor the other". In late 19th century Texas, some whites professed to admire "pure-blooded" Indians (Native Americans) as noble savages, but were contemptuous of mestizo Mexicans as half-breeds. In Haiti ca. 1800, mulattos as a group were greatly mistrusted by whites and blacks alike... AnonMoos (talk) 14:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

In Mexico today, there is discrimination against pure blood Indians by those who are of "mixed-blood", Latinos. But they don't discriminate against Spanish people. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 14:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The basis of any kind of bigotry typically boils down to "us vs. them". I recall being startled the time I was at a basketball game and the dark-skinned hispanic (who had brought his young, impressionable son) who was sitting next to me kept yelling the "N-word" at a particular player. It occurred to me that the irony had been lost on the guy, regarding whatever bigotry he himself might have suffered. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Those classified as "coloured" in Apartheid South Africa suffered a different level of discrimination from that levelled at "'pure-bred' black Africans"; you could argue that the system favoured mixed-race people over black people in some respects. See Apartheid#Coloured classification. I doubt those affected were particularly impressed by the difference, whatever official label they were forced to wear. Karenjc 16:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Pakistan liberal conservative

Like the U.S. liberal conservative question, which provinces of Pakistan are considered liberal (meaning Pakistan Peoples Party) and which provinces are conservative (meaning Pakistan Muslim League) or is it different from U.S. politics?

Again, PPP is not 'liberal' in the way that is defined in the US, PML is not strictly 'conservative' in the same way as US conservatives. PPP has its stronghold in Sindh, PML factions in Punjab. --Soman (talk) 17:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The identification of liberal or conservative often includes the degree of adherence to a laundry list of issues that are considered to be key. I would be interested to see some of the differences in position on key issues, between those two parties, if the OP or someone can provide it. It would give some perspective as to "relative" liberalism or conservatism. For example, it's been said that by today's standards, Abraham Lincoln was a racist; but by standards of his day, he was a liberal. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The United States uses the terms liberal and conservative differently from most of the rest of the world. So it is difficult to compare political parties in other countries with those in the United States using these terms. Marco polo (talk) 17:48, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that used to be the case. American extremists have kind of co-opted those terms, but if you look closely, American liberals often aren't very "liberal" (modern, free-thinking) and American conservatives often aren't very "conservative" (old-fashioned, thrifty). Instead, it has to do with adherence to a specific list of "litmus test" bullet points. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:54, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

This is getting silly. Trying to use 'liberal' vs 'conservative' to define politics worldwide is nonsensical. In the secular 'West', a more reasonable general division would probably be 'left' vs 'right', with the proviso that one needs to add 'libertarian' vs 'authoritarian' into the mix. In Pakistan, the division is more oriented around (relatively) 'secular' vs 'fundamentalist Islam', though it is worth noting there are considerable regional and ethnic divisions. It makes no more sense to describe Pakistan's politics in US terms than it would to describe the US's in Pakistan's. (though come to think of it... - sorry, had POV moment there). AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:15, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Left and right are also pretty meaningless outside of a specified milieu. In China, is a hardcore supporter of the authority of the Communist Party, "left" or "right"? Was Oliver Cromwell "left" or "right"? The questions are almost obviously nonsensical. --Trovatore (talk) 06:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Which is why we should remove 'political position' from Template:Infobox political party. 'Far-left' is repeatedly added as the 'position' of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which really doesn't make sense. --Soman (talk) 12:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Basically, we have to acknowledge that political parties (both in US and Pakistan) are somewhat complex entities. The Democrats are not strictly liberal, the Republicans are not strictly conservative. The PPP is a party which, simultaneously, is built around defense of feudal landowning interests as well as being a secular, democratic and to some extent socialist party. How is this possible? An one-dimensional understanding of politics cannot grasp such a dialectic relationship. --Soman (talk) 18:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Another good example would be Teddy Roosevelt, a strong believer in the "manifest destiny" of America, which would typically fall into the "conservative" stereotype, as well as being a strong supporter of many "progressive" causes, decades before his distant cousin Franklin was able to put them into practice. Yet modern "conservatives" think much more highly of TR than of FDR. Go figure. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so Soman, you mentioned that Punjab is PML stronghold and Sindh is PPP stronghold. what do you know about Northwest Frontier and Balochistan? which political parties stronghold are they?

NWFP (now renamed Khyber Pakhtunkhwa) is stronghold, to some extent, of the Awami National Party (Pashtoon nationalism, moderate left-of-centre) and islamists (MMA). --Soman (talk) 01:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Rev James Blair, 1656 - 1743, Williamburg VA

RE: The Heritage portion of the article on Rev James Blair, Colonial Williamsburg, VA does not mention the small street off the main Duke of Glouser St, Blair St as being named for James Blair. Is it named for him? No hurry, just curious and it isn't memtioned in any of the articles; and the Williamsburg guides didn't know. Thank you - and thank you to all your great contributors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.36.43.120 (talk) 17:13, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Probably, and certainly named for the family. The John Blair House (named for James' grandson, 1st USSC Justice John Blair) is right there, so it's possible it was named for him. --Sean 18:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Does fiction - novels and films - make us better persons?

Or is it just entertainment? Of course, many works of fiction contain a message, but wouldn't it be infinitely easier to write down the message than to extract it from a story? Quest09 (talk) 17:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

To answer with a parallel, the commercial world has concluded in all-but-universal consensus that modern advertising -- "corporate fiction", as it were, with storylines and rhetorical fluff and such -- is more effective than broadcasting "give us your money". While it's undoubtedly easier (note: not "infinitely") to write down the message, that's not the same as saying that the easy delivery will be more effective. — Lomn 17:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Works of both fact and fiction can make us think about things that we might not have otherwise, which can make us "better" or "worse" depending on which message we take home. And the entertainment part, as suggested by Lomn, makes the message more interesting. Aesop's fables all had a moral lesson, but without the background story they're not very interesting. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:49, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what you would like to consider "better" or take to be a "message". Do you mean to say that "messages" make us "better"? Why do you think that would be? How does the means or form of communication affect the message? Are some messages only encodable or conveyable by means of eg. allegory?

Our Narrative article points out that:

"Stories are an important aspect of culture. Many works of art and most works of literature tell stories; indeed, most of the humanities involve stories. Owen Flanagan of Duke University, a leading consciousness researcher, writes that “Evidence strongly suggests that humans in all cultures come to cast their own identity in some sort of narrative form. We are inveterate storytellers” (Consciousness Reconsidered 198)."

Humans are not simple computational machines. A complex emotional state, for example, cannot be conveyed by simply naming it in a "message". Some communication can only occur in the form of "direct experience"...

Interesting question! – sorry for disorganization of answer :S – WikiDao ☯ (talk) 18:14, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The Jungle Book taught me eye contact was important. That made me better at being a normal person. So... 86.161.108.241 (talk) 18:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

That is what I used to think in my youth. I read depressing classics like Jude The Obscure, which probably contributed to my gloom of that time. I now think that fiction does not improve you, that you'd be better off spending the time chatting with friends or just going for a walk, and that the idea that they improve you is just put forward by the book industry as a way of selling books. On the other hand reading literature is probably better than watching tv. 92.24.183.235 (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It really depends on what you read. Garbage in, garbage out. I've certainly had my worldview expanded by various works of fiction. Some have just been entertainment. Some have been truly important. Knowing which those will be for any given person is pretty hard, but there certainly are some "classics" which seem to affect just about everyone who reads them one way or another, if they have two brain cells to run together and haven't decided ahead of time not to be affected by anything. Plenty of people will attest that they have read a book that has "changed their life." It's a lot more than just "the message" that matters. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The interesting question reminds me of a passage in The Mote in God's Eye which I found online here, in which humans visiting an alien planet found that all of the aliens' artworks seemed to have been created specifically to convey or illustrate some message. "In the [human] Empire there are paintings that are just supposed to be pretty. Here, no ... How about [an artwork's message simply being] 'Mountains are pretty'?" An alien shrugged, not seeing the value. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd just like to add again that reading "the message" and experiencing "the message" are two very different things. Fiction often tries to get you to do the latter. So it's the difference between saying, for example, "a surveillance state would be pretty unpleasant to live in," or reading Orwell. Now maybe there are some people who can read "the message" and say, "oh, I get all of the implications of that, and find that either compelling or not." Some people are indeed clever and imaginative enough to do that without any cultural "help." But most of us get a lot out of "living" in that imagined world for a bit, see how it appears. We might not agree with the message or the world, in the end. But it's a different type of understanding that comes with reading (good) fiction. You could, of course, write extensive non-fiction about the same topic. For some topics, you'll certainly get more information across in the least amount of time. And in the hands of some authors, the end result can be as vivid as fiction. This isn't an argument for the supremacy of fiction, but it is an argument against degrading it before non-fiction. (I say this as a writer of non-fiction.) --Mr.98 (talk) 14:21, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

One might as well ask, what is the purpose of art? And are paintings of "real" (non-fiction) or "imagined" (fiction) scenes of different intrinsic value—whatever "value" is? I would argue it's irrelevant whether or not a work is fictional. Creativity, insight, and richness of expression regardless of the medium of choice: language, the brush, the crayon, the musical note; are the yardsticks for deeming worth. I have read compelling non-fiction and fiction as well as works of both genres which are neither informative nor stimulating. Creativity—whether as author or audience—surely enriches the human experience. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

You seem like the hero of À rebours. 92.24.186.163 (talk) 15:30, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Monetary exchange rate for US dollar circa 1900

Where can I find exchange rates between the US Dollar and Chinese currency around 1900? I am trying to find out how much $0.25 American would be worth. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

This is by far the best site I'm aware of for currency history, but it only goes back to 1952 for US-China. Dalliance (talk) 20:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

According to our article Yuan, which addresses the history of the Chinese currency, the yuan in 1900 was equal to one Mexican peso, which according to our article on the peso at that time was defined as equal to 24.441 grams of fine silver. According to this source, a troy ounce of gold in 1900 was equal to 26.49 troy ounces, or 823.9311 grams, of silver. Now, a troy ounce of gold was defined in 1900 to be worth USD 20.67 (see U.S. dollar), since the United States had adopted the gold standard (whereas Mexico and China were on a silver standard). Doing the math, that means that the yuan in 1900 was worth USD 0.6131 (61.31 cents). USD 0.25 would therefore be worth 0.4078 yuan, that is, not quite 41 Chinese cents or fen. Marco polo (talk) 21:13, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the U.S. coined trade dollars a few years earlier specifically for U.S.-China trade... AnonMoos (talk) 21:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Baptism-how many days after birth

Normally how soon did European parents baptise their children after they were born? I am especially interested in France and England. The time frame comprises the medieval period up to the 19th century. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:13, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You have chosen to large a timespan to find a normally. You are going from the period where children were baptised within days because of the high rate of infant mortality to the period where people might wait a couple weeks so the mother was capable of being present and of hosting a party. And throwing in the complication of the Baptists (and related churches) after the Reformation who only accepted adults for baptism. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

E. A. Wrigley and R. S. Schofield, in The Population History of England, 1541-1871 (1989) p. 289, say that baptism in the 16th century almost always happened "shortly after birth", which I take to mean a few days after, and that the interval later lengthened in some parts of England but not in others. They gave median figures of 8 days in the late 17th century and 30 days in 1800. --Antiquary (talk) 19:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The reason I ask is because Elizabeth I was baptised three days after her birth (1533), Catherine Willoughby four days after her birth (1519). This appeared to have been standard practise in the 16th century; whereas Madame de Montespan (1641) and Madame Du Barry (1743) were recorded as having been baptised the same day they were born.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

If the goal was to baptize as quickly as feasible (as seems to have been the case before modern times due to the high risk of infant mortality), then presumably royalty would have been baptized more quickly than commoners. Royalty, after all, had fawning priests at their beck and call, whereas peasants had to wait until it was convenient for the local pastor to conduct the rite. Marco polo (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Shakespeare was baptized on April 26 and his birthdate is conventionally assumed to be April 23, on the theory that baptisms typically were three days after birth in 16th century England, although our article on Shakespeare's life says this was not always the case. John M Baker (talk) 20:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course in an emergency baptism can be administered by the midwife, or by anyone else who happens to be present. I suspect that might have been Madame du Barry's case. As Marco Polo suggests, a priest would almost certainly have been within call at the birth of Elizabeth I and very likely at those of Catherine Willoughby and Madame de Montespan. --Antiquary (talk) 21:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Name-day could be a clue to this. Until fairly recently, the rural population here in Slovenia (not sure about other countries, but I assume it might be similar) took the name-day to be more important than the actual birthday. My grandfather would only celebrate his name-day. This could be of use here because names were given (in a baptism, of course) according to the patron saint of the particular name-day, and name-days were never more than a couple days away from actual birthdays. My grandfather's birthday and name-day were three days apart, confirming what has been said above. TomorrowTime (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Why not 1 minute after birth, by the parent? Why wait on church and great ceremony if an "Angry God" might punish unbaptized infants?Edison (talk) 05:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Can I tell you of my experience, Jeanne. In my family of origin, baptisms were conducted after Mass on the first Sunday the mother was able to attend after the birth, which usually meant the first or second Sunday afterwards. It was conducted in a simple 5-minute ceremony attended only by the parents, any older children, and 2 witnesses standing in for the godparents, who as often as not lived in a different place and were not expected to travel for such a short event. No other trappings or outward festivities. Then the family wouild go home and Mum would cook the usual Sunday roast for just the family. End of story. But when I got myself married, to a woman of Russian cultural background, things were very different when it came to our son's baptism. There was a baptism and a big party afterwards, to both of which many family members and friends were invited. The party went into the small hours of the next morning. There were gifts, cards, speeches, and general merrymaking and wassail. Some members of my family of origin felt the whole thing was inappropriate and refused to attend. So, European tradition can vary enormously. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 05:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Some information here[25], and a discussion here[26]. This pdf file[27] - part of an examination of 18th Century human remains from Spitalfields in east London - shows a table of birth and baptism dates (page 2/4); "the range is from two to 170 days, the average being 25 days." Alansplodge (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Bangladesh Awami league Bangladeshi nationalist party

which divisions of Bangladesh are Awami League stronghold and which divisions are BNP stronghold? and also which divisions are Jamaat e Islami stronghold? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.154.112 (talk) 22:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Tombstone orientation

a representation

I was told by a cemetery caretaker that my grandparents headstone was placed at the foot (apparently by mistake) when installed in 1941. My father was buried next to them in 1990. His tombstone was of the same orientation (some 49 years later). He said that the "foundation" and headstones must be moved before my mother can be buried in the same grave Lot, which has 5 grave spaces. Then he says my mother's headstone would be correct with my grandparents and my father (her husband). He wants me to pick up the expense of moving these tombstones, which sounds expensive to me. Now my questions are:

• How come the tombstones were placed at the foot (apparently a mistake) - twice??
• How does one know that in fact they were placed at the foot? Maybe they are at the head, which would be correct!
• Since the original large tombstone (for my grandparents) was placed there in 1941, then what is the objection and why does someone care now AFTER all this time?
• Why couldn't my mother's headstone then just be placed next to my father's and my grandparents with the same orientation (directly adjacent).
• My father was cremated. My mother will be also. Can BOTH be laid then in the same grave space.
• My grandparents use spaces #2 & 3. My father is in space # 4. Numbers 5 and 1 are available. The lot has already been paid for by my grandfather when he bought the Lot originally in the 1920s.

Picture is just a representation of what my grandparents tombstone looks like

My grandfather died in 1941 and that is when the large tombstone was installed.

My mother has arranged a pre-paid funeral with cremation.

--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

In order to know what is *really* within the power of the caretaker to insist upon, you would need to consult the grave plot deed and a lawyer, and probably the cemetery regulations. The only time a burial site generates income for the cemetery after the purchase is when someone is buried there, and caretakers may sometimes overstate what is required in order to increase the costs. Probably will hit you up for "perpetual" care as well, which always seems to fall somewhat short of perpetual. With regard to your specific questions, the orientation of a body within the grave (head/foot) is usually noted in cemetery records kept by the sexton or caretaker; and certainly there's no reason that two cremated bodies could not be buried within the space of a grave that could hold one non-cremated body. But getting done what you want to have done may require a cooperative caretaker, and it sounds like you don't have one, or he'd simply call the headstones footstones. - Nunh-huh 23:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I thought that Christians were buried facing east, which would imply the headstone should be at the west end. I don't know if the facing east thing is either true or universal. 92.28.255.105 (talk) 00:00, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Christians are buried facing in all directions. Christian churches were generally but not universally oriented (since the Middle Ages) with an east-west long axis, with the altar on the east side so the celebrants faced east during services. - Nunh-huh 00:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Not about the graves (I didn't think it mattered in Christianity) but re the churches, I have this theory that they faced east so that the sun had the biggest impact shining through the stained glass windows on Sunday mornings. HiLo48 (talk) 00:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I have at least one pair of relatives where the husband died first and was conventionally buried, and when the wife died, the remains were cremated and placed in the same grave. Whether that could be done in this case might depend in part on state laws regarding burials and cremations and such. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:39, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Thinking back on cemeteries I've been to, it does seem that they tend to orient (literally) the graves in an east-west direction, but that's not always the case. The grave of Adlai Stevenson, for example, runs north and south. They might often be oriented east-west for the same reason that HiLo has in mind, i.e. to be able to read them more easily, since they'll be in sunlight at least half the day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Um, I don't follow the logic there, Bugs. A South-facing headstone (in the northern hemisphere) would get a lot more light. I'm fairly sure that in western Europe at least, Christian burials are specifically oriented in the same way that churches are: to the east. As for why, the 'official' reason is probably 'in the direction of Jerusalem', but I think this may not be the whole story - one can find careful alignments on a north-south or east-west axis in varying cultural contexts, from pre-Columbian Mesoamerica to ancient Egypt and beyond. Maybe we line people up in neat rows when they are dead because it is so darned difficult to do this when they are living? AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

On the "Great Getting Up Morning" some believe that in the resurrection folks will pop up from their graves like a mailbox flag. If their feet are to the East, then (depending on their location) they would face Jerusalem, which might provide the best view of the proceedings. Edison (talk) 05:30, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I am missing something, but ashes have no head or foot so there is no impediment regarding orientation. If the cemetery buried your prior family members incorrectly (as monuments are typically in rows and all face the same direction as a group) that's their problem to fix, not yours, if you insist on reorienting the caskets. If the tombstone was placed out of orientation with all the others around it, well, it's a bit late to be noticing that. If the company that placed the memorial is still in business, then it would be their problem to fix, again, not yours. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 15:06, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Reorienting assumes a steel or concrete outer casket that is still intact and movable. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 15:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Local to me in the UK, ashes could be scattered in a cemetery garden (along with lots of other people), and/or they could be scattered anywhere you like within reason. If I were you I would just scatter your mother's ashes on top of your father's grave with possibly some withheld to scatter in any other favourite spots she had. The position of the headstones is not very important. The pre-paid burial service - won't they just tell you to come and collect the urn a day or two after the service is over? Then you can do whatever you like with it. If this was in the UK I would suspect the caretaker was hoping to make a fast buck, but perhaps practice is different in your country. 92.24.186.163 (talk) 15:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

(NB: I run a cemetery, but it's both very old and not very busy) In theory, headstones should be placed at the head of each grave, unless there is a compelling reason not to. This creates uniform rows of headstones, meaning that a gravedigger who has to go past your graves can do so without disturbing the stones. A stone in the middle of the grave (and, thus, the middle of the row) might have to be moved if someone nearby needs to be buried. Even if the grave is opened by hand, most vaults are placed using a small hoist based on a cart, and that needs room to move within the cemetery. If there are graves one row further to the east (so that their heads are next to your grandparents' feet), then the headstone of your grandparents (at the foot of their grave) might be right next to the headstone of the people next door (at the head of their grave), so you have two headstones front-to-back, and no one can read yours - and it looks hinky, besides.

I don't know that they can compel you to move the headstone, or to pay for it - but IANAL - you'll want to look at the original deeds and purchase documents to confirm, as well as any fee they charged for the concrete the first time around. You might track down the headstone company - many of these, at least in the US, have been around for centuries, and this one might still be in operation. They may have some insight, or might - if you're lucky - have records that could show that the cemetery screwed it up. If you decline, and they really need it moved for their own purposes (access, etc), they'll just move it themselves and eat the cost.

Now, moving the headstone does NOT mean you need to open the grave to move the remains. Unless you have a strong religious or philosophical need to know with certainty which way your relatives are facing, there isn't a good reason to go through the heartbreaking task of digging them up. Adding to that is the concern that, depending on the container used in 1941, there might not be enough left to move. Even a metal container will show some deterioration. Finally, in many places in the US, you require a court order to disinter remains, even if temporarily for a purpose such as this. Not worth the trouble, I imagine. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:18, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

December 2

Santa Clauses

How many men play Santa Claus publicly each year in the United States of America?
—Wavelength (talk) 00:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

If you can find the number of enclosed shopping malls in America, that might well give you a minimum figure. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I have found Category:Shopping malls in the United States.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:03, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Then you have the ones that appear in parades, the ones that might appear as greeters or as Salvation Army kettle bell ringers (although that's less common than it used to be) and who knows what all. Have you tried googling this subject to see what turns up, if anything? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I have done Google searches for how many santa claus, how many santa clauses, how many play santa claus, number how many play santa claus, santa claus school, santa claus training, santa claus course, santa claus students, santa claus graduate, and santa claus recruit, in that order. (I copied those 10 sets of terms from my Google searches in my browsing history.)

—Wavelength (talk) 02:23, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I have done additional Google searches for santa claus count, santa claus census, santa claus survey, and santa claus statistics, in that order, without finding the answer. (However, I found http://www.christmasnewswire.com/2010/11/16/88-percent-of-adults-believe-in-santa-claus/ and http://www.directhit.com/ansres/Santa-Claus-Statistics.html, which I found to be particularly interesting.)

—Wavelength (talk) 02:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Tragically, even the long form of the recent Census inexplicably neglected to include any question about whether respondents had dressed up as Santa Claus within the previous year. Looie496 (talk) 04:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Technically, that is a travesty if at all. Tragedies are when someone dies. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 10:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Rubbish. Tragedies don't necessarily involve death. It was a tragedy that T E Lawrence lost his manuscript of Seven Pillars of Wisdom, and a triumph that he was able to rewrite it from memory. There's an overlap between travesties and tragedies, and Looie's example may well be a case of both. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

5-page phd thesis

[28] is that for real? How often does that happen? tx. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 00:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Did he get the doctorate? I heard a (possibly apocryphal) story about a Philosophy student who in answer to the question "What is bravery?", answered "This is." AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how "for real" this is. If you Google this guy and a lot of very odd looking, non-peer reviewed stuff comes up, 90% of which seems to involve stringing together references to major works combined with digressions and casual observations by the author. It looks like nonsense to me, but what do I know. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:43, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

"stringing together references to major works combined with digressions and casual observations by the author..." Aw man, that sounds like my thesis! Adam Bishop (talk) 06:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not an academic site and "dissertation" can apply to anything, if it were a real dissertation it would indicate candidacy for doctorate and applicable faculty, not just student and university. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 15:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

It does appear Matt is a Ph.D. candidate—but dissertation is not the document here. Matt appears to be on a quest to accumulate an impressive hodgepodge of letters and dots after his name. But what do I know. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 15:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Note that "dissertation", while most commonly used in the context of a Ph.D. thesis, isn't restricted to that meaning. Wikt:dissertation for example, defines it as "A formal exposition of a subject" or "A lengthy lecture on a subject; a treatise; a discourse; a sermon." Merriam-Webster had "an extended usually written treatment of a subject". The chance that he's using the term "dissertation" to mean something different than "Ph.D. thesis" is increased by the fact that he is probably not a native English speaker (note the uni-muenchen.de domain). -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 22:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

This is one of these things that (at least sometimes) changes meaning as you go across the Pond. In the States, probably most universities have PhD "dissertations", and "PhD thesis" is certainly understood but considered informal. You write a "thesis" for a Master's degree. (There are certainly exceptions; some US universities do officially have PhD "theses".)

In the UK, on the other hand, "thesis" is the usual word for a doctoral work, and "dissertation" generally sounds like a discourse requiring less effort rather than more.

In the instant case, though, the word is definitely being used in the sense of "PhD dissertation", as you can see on the title page. --Trovatore (talk) 01:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Why is there no such thing as legal insurance? How the HELL do poor people pay for lawyers?

It can be argued that lawyers are on the same socioeconomic strata as doctors, but why can't there be legal insurance if there can be medical insurance? What's so wrong about having legal insurance exist in the first place?

How do poor clients pay for lawyers without any way for an insurance to pay for them? --70.179.178.5 (talk) 04:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Er, where? This is Wikipedia, a global cooperative effort, and such questions can hardly be answered without context? From your question, I'd suspect you are asking about the US system, in which case I'd suggest that the answer depends on many factors, not least on what the lawyer is needed for. I'd try to be a little more specific (though don't ask for legal advice, because we can't give it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:44, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Funny that you mention doctors because they DO have what you call "legal insurance". It is called "malpractice insurance", which is used to cover legal issues and penalties involved in malpractice lawsuits. -- kainaw™ 04:51, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

In the U.S., if you need a lawyer and genuinely cannot afford to pay one, you can get one for free. The Public defender is availible for criminal cases, and Legal aid for civil cases or for other things lawyers do, like reviewing paperwork or preparing a will. If you get charged with a crime, the government is required to give you a lawyer; that's what a public defender does. If you get sued, or wish to sue someone else, or need a lawyer for some other reason, that's what legal aid does. --Jayron32 04:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) We have an article that discusses pro bono legal counsel (free legal service) in the US and the UK. In the US, it is common for people who need legal representation but cannot afford it to be granted a court-appointed attorney. Legal insurance seems like a good idea, though, and may be obtainable in some places. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 04:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

There's legal insurance -- see legal expenses insurance. It can be either "before event" or "after event". It comes with a lot of company benefits packages (we have it where I work). Antandrus (talk) 05:02, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec) So first of all, you understand that it's not the basic idea behind insurance to make things affordable for poor people, at least per se? Insurance is a way of making your costs predictable, not so much of reducing them. For example, if your chance of having a fire that destroys your home is one in a thousand per year, then the annual cost of your fire insurance will be somewhat more than a thousandth of the value of your home (with the simplifying assumptions that the insurance would cover the entire value, and that your home is either completely destroyed or untouched).

If you could be a homeowner for ten thousand years, and if you had the discipline to put that money away in a special-purpose account for the ten times your home is destroyed by fire, you could do it more cheaply that way than by buying insurance.

The reason that it's worthwhile to have fire insurance, in spite of its negative expected value, is that you can afford the insurance, but you can't afford to lose your home and not be reimbursed.

All that said, there is such a thing as insurance to cover legal costs. I know, for example, of a company called MetLaw. --Trovatore (talk) 05:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Legal insurance is usually just called "insurance". Car insurance, by far one of the most visible forms of insurance, almost everywhere in the U.S. contracts that the insurer will provide and pay for an attorney for the insured party. Malpractice insurance (whether for lawyers, doctors, or other professionals) is the same thing. In fact the duty to defend is pretty common in many insurance contracts. Shadowjams (talk) 09:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Common law instructs that the pleadings of the self-represented be interpreted broadly. How much due process offsets the conflicts of interest brought about by paid representation? Are there analogous problems with paid editing? Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 10:45, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how this point relates to this question, but the liberal pleading standard is a product (in the U.S.) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Under the common law in say Blackstone's time, most litigation began with a writ, not a pleading (I could be wrong, but I think that a "pleading" is a modern creation) and writs were anything but liberally construed. You might be interested also in Roscoe Pound, one of the intellectual fathers of the FRCP. Shadowjams (talk) 22:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

An interesting and related practice is legal financing. There have been a number of stories in the New York Times lately about this practice, which has been controversial for centuries. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

While this doesn't necessarily help the poor, many companies offer their employees Employee assistance programs which can include some coverage of legal fees. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:27, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Were Adam and Eve Muslims?

A few days ago we discussed whether, within Judaism, Adam and Eve are considered Jews. The general consensus was that no, Abraham was the first Jew, and everyone before him was an uncircumcised sheygetz. However, the question of who is a Muslim is radically different than who is a Jew. I recall reading somewhere that certain prophets like Jesus, John the Baptist, and so forth are accorded the status of Muslims because, although they preceded the revelations of Muhammad, they adhered to the "correct path" by the mere grace of God. So what about Adam and Eve? Obviously their whole significance in Christianity is that they didn't adhere to the correct path, but maybe Muslims see things differently.

My curiosity extends beyond Eden. What about relative goody-goodies like Abraham, Moses, Job, Pinhas, etc? Are there any other pre-Islamic (or extra-Islamic) figures that are sometimes considered Muslims-by-grace, perhaps by a particular sect but not by another? Would it be conceivable for an Egyptian to uphold Akhenaten as a Muslim, or for a Persian to uphold Zarathustra as a Muslim, on the basis of their monotheism? Or would this kind of revisionism be universally regarded as heretical? LANTZY^TALK 07:45, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Adam (and Noah, Moses, Jesus, etc) are Prophets of Islam, for which we have a convenient article. There is also an article on the Islamic view of Adam (and of Noah and of Abraham and whoever else you would like to compare). Islam is supposed to have existed for all eternity, but it was imperfectly revealed until the time of Muhammad, so while Adam and the rest are considered prophets, and the Qur'an does refer to them as "Muslims", they did not live in an age where everyone was capable of understanding the revelation. (In reference to pre-Islamic Mecca this "time of ignorance" is called jahiliyya, but I don't know if that extends to every other pre-Islamic period of history.) Adam Bishop (talk) 08:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and for Akhenaten, it's certainly possible for modern Muslims to consider him an early Muslim, just as he is sometimes seen as a predecessor of Christians and Jews, but that wouldn't be an official doctrine of any of the modern monotheistic religions. He wasn't really a monotheist (his god was still the god of the sun), and he was long forgotten by the time of Muhammad. He's not mentioned in any Jewish or Christian writings, so he doesn't show up in Islam either (early Muslim stories are often poorly-told or poorly-remembered versions of Jewish/Christian ones, as in their version of Alexander - or, if you prefer, Allah simply didn't reveal anything about Akhenaten to Muhammad). Zoroastrians on the other hand were generally tolerated as "people of the book". That wasn't exactly a monotheistic religion either, but it was close enough, and Zoroaster is sometimes considered a Prophet (he is mentioned briefly in the aforementioned Prophets of Islam article). Adam Bishop (talk) 08:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

All people were, have been, and will continue to be superstitious to the extent that they believe false myths. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 10:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

So they should be more selective and only believe the true ones? Blakk and ekka 13:30, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Does that have any reference at all to the matter at hand? I don't see it. Marnanel (talk) 12:09, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no evidence for created initial humans, only for humans evolved from apes. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 13:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

To paraphrase a Myron Cohen item:

"Do all apes wear those little caps?"

"No, only the Orthodox."

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I repeat my question: does that have any relevance to the matter at hand? The question is whether, in Islam, two characters have a certain attribute. The matter of whether these two characters existed in the real world is utterly irrelevant to the question. Your response appears to be a petty attempt at point-scoring. Marnanel (talk) 17:53, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

If anyone had anything to gain by opposing superstitions, we'd all be rich. Perhaps I have been spending too much time at the science reference desk, but the question was about human origins, and to perpetuate falsehoods that many people believe as truth is more certainly a sin than deriving laws from mistakes inferred from superstitious falsehoods. I wish we all tried to disabuse each other of shared falsehoods and superstition more often. Because I believe doing so is helpful, I intended my answer as friendly help for a question particular to the origin of humans and therefore on topic for the desk and the question.

Specific examples include the harm that superstitious origin myths do to the ability to teach both biochemistry and radiochemistry, both of which involve substantial facts contrary to the young age of the Earth inherent in those superstitions. Because genetic biochemistry is necessary for the development of vaccines and other medicine, inhibiting the education of biochemistry, including by perpetuation of false origin myths, is an attack on health. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 23:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The question was in no way about human origins. I have to wonder whether you even read it, or whether you saw the words "Adam" and "Eve" and jumped on your hobby-horse. Marnanel (talk) 23:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Economics/statistics/policy question: Tendency for a scoring metric to be increasingly uncorrelated with a variable as that metric is emphasized by policy?

I've been going bonkers attempting to remember this rule, law, or theory (in the loosest of senses). I'm not sure if it's more in the policy realm, or the economic realm, but I have read it attributed to someone in particular, and I thought I had once found an article on it here on Wikipedia. I also think the article might have included someone's name, as in "John Doe's Law." Many searches didn't find it, of course. The concept is in the title, but I'll try to explain it another way: the basic idea is that even if a metric is well correlated with some underlying variable or collection of variables (what we actually want to improve) at first, as the metric is emphasized in policy or research, it will be of less and less use--it will be less and less correlated with what we actually want to improve. For example, a test score might be correlated with performance in some area, but as that score increasingly becomes the focus of policy attention, the score will be increasingly less correlated with actual performance. Anyone have any leads? Papers, scholars, etc? --76.115.3.200 (talk) 08:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

"You get what you measure"?

67.117.130.143 (talk) 10:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

That may help, but I still haven't found it. Thanks. --76.115.3.200 (talk) 00:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Policy changes frequently change the various causal relationships of policy, yes. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 10:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Leave your snark at home. --76.115.3.200 (talk) 00:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Median value of reminders

What is the median economic value for a person to:

(1) remind others to brush their teeth;

(2) remind others to floss their teeth;

(3) remind others to apply net present value accounting to economic extrapolations; and

(4) remind others to get enough exercise? Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 10:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe we can calculate this. Quest09 (talk) 11:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course we can. USD44.2568. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:09, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that the median value is that high. The median economic value for me to remind others of doing something is probably 0, unless I can get some value back from people who got my advice. Quest09 (talk) 13:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

What is the median value for not believing this 'median value' humbug from the pseudoscience of 'economics'? There is no evidence whatsoever that economic theory can be used to accurately describe human behaviour. (And BTW, 'money', which is what you are probably trying to measure 'value' in, is yet another of these social constructs that only exist in that people think that they ought to...) AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:44, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

If there is such a thing, then it would be negative. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 14:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Is that for reminding the people you know in person, or reminding the people you know in person and online both? I imagine there's a greater value for the local people, because of the greater impact on the local cost of health care. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 14:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Francophobia

As someone who is of partial French ancestry and bears an obvious French first name, I have experienced some Francophobia on occasion. I am baffled by this bizarre Francophobia that people in the US and Europe display towards France and French people. Can anyone shed light on this matter? Does it go back to the megalomania of Napoleon or possibly even further, to the Hundred Years War? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say there is francophobia in all European countries. In Austria and Spain I'm sure you won't encounter additional problems. In the UK and Germany, it could be a bit different, but you are far from being beaten up in the street. It is much more sporadic disgusting encounter with disgusting people making disgusting comments. Quest09 (talk) 13:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

By the way, there's a certain phenomenon in Europe of the people of a country tending to hate the immediately neighboring countries (with which they're likely to be in direct competition), but liking countries which are one removed. So the Poles traditionally hated the Russians and Germans, but were fond of the French, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 13:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

In the UK, there are many obvious historical conflicts, partly arising from the fact that they're neighboring countries. It wasn't until 1904 that the UK and France started to be in somewhat consistent long-term quasi-alignment. For the U.S., there's the XYZ Affair and Quasi-War in old history, and the French refusal of U.S. overflight rights for the 1980s raid on Libya in recent history. Probably more important is that the French are considered to assume haughty attitudes of disdainful superiority which aren't considered justified by the facts. Americans are certainly slightly mystified by the fact that the French complain loud and long over American "hegemonic cultural imperialism" and "Coca-colonization", and vocally proclaim the superiority of French culture to that of the despised anglo-saxons, but then give the Legion of Honor to Jerry Lewis... By the way, British and U.S. soldiers who fought on the front-lines in the trench warfare of WWI often emerged with more anti-French attitudes than anti-German attitudes. AnonMoos (talk) 13:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

You got a citation for that last claim? --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

From reading certain books such as Goodbye to All That, the lyrics to Mademoiselle from Armentieres, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 13:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The song doesn't seem to contain any anti-French sentiment as such. From the article on the book it seems Robert Graves mostly criticises European civilisation in general as well as English civilisation specifically. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

'Anti-French feeling among most ex-soldiers amounted almost to an obsession. Edmund, shaking with nerves, used to say at this time [c. 1920]: "No more wars for me at any price! Except against the French. If there's ever a war with them, I'll go like a shot." Pro-German feeling had been increasing. With the war over and the German armies beaten, we could give the German soldier credit for being the most efficient fighting-man in Europe...Some undergraduates even insisted that we had been fighting on the wrong side: our natural enemies were the French.' (Goodbye to All That (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1960) p. 240). --Antiquary (talk) 18:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I would be wary of taking Robert Graves as representative of the average Tommy. Notice how Graves takes his examples from a friend and university undergraduates. Hardly representative of most soldiers.--Britannicus (talk) 19:50, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. See 112 Gripes About the French... AnonMoos (talk) 13:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The trouble with the French is that they can't stand being foreign. When they manage to get over it I'm sure they'll become much more likeable. DuncanHill (talk) 13:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Mark Twain had some fairly salty things to say about the French, which probably helped fuel our kind of love-hate relationship with the French. About some scandal or another: "That is un-English! It is un-American!! It is French!!!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure General Lafayette is turning over in his grave.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

In somewhat more recent times, the perceived arrogance of Charles DeGaulle and some of his successors has helped to fuel this situation also. However, I think there's an underlying cultural divide between Northern European and Latin European that figures into this; somewhat like what Americans of Northern European descent feel about the "invasion" of Hispanic culture. Nordic types are considered more serious, while Latin types are considered more gregarious. I used to work with a Brit who, although he actually liked the French in general, said, "The only thing the French know how to organize is a party." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Although French is a Romance language, one cannot consider the French to be Latin, such as the Italians and Spanish. Most of the French immigrants to North America came from Northern France. People from Gascony, the Languedoc, and Provençe would be Latin, but not Bretons, Normans, Picards, Lorrainers, or Parisians.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:32, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

• You are defending the exact point of view that makes many people dislike the French. They consider themselves to be different. You can also consider a part of the Spanish to be Bask or Celt or whatever (nobody knows for sure) to be non-Latin. However, as a matter of fact all these three countries are product of the same Latin culture and speak a modern version of Latin. Mr.K. (talk) 16:55, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on Anti-French sentiment in the United States which discusses the issue and its history in some detail. It says that this sentiment "returned to the fore in the wake of France's refusal to support U.S. proposals in the UN Security Council for military action to invade Iraq" and goes on to describe other factors of its development from that point. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I sometimes think of French-speakers and English-speakers as being like brothers who don't get along very well: they constantly bicker and quarrel about all manner of things, but when an enemy arises, they will defend each other. The current anti-French sentiment has much to do with a feeling of betrayal of that understanding. However, as George Will once said, nations don't have "friends", they have "interests", and those interests don't necessarily coincide all the time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:48, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

TVtropes is quite good on this ([29]). Certainly the kneejerk anti-French reaction in the UK tends to centre around their perceived lack of will to fight, particularly in World War II, although (OR alert) I have often found such people remarkably ignorant of European military history, and the practical and political issues that brought France to defeat in 1940. There is also, I believe, a certain unspoken resentment of a nation that has great food and wine and the international language of seduction, whose women possess the ability to look effortlessly chic even when clad in a dustbin liner and flip-flops, and whose city centres feature more of an adult cafe culture, and fewer gangs of teenagers on alco-pops). Karenjc 17:53, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Dialogue from Doogie Howser, M.D., from memory. Doogie is talking to his friend Vinnie about an email message he plans to send to a girl. "I'll write it in French." — "French?" — "The language of love." — "I thought Italian was the language of love!" --Anonymous, 01:17 UTC, December 3, 2010.

"...all these three countries are product of the same Latin culture and speak a modern version of Latin." Even if true, which can be disputed, that's not quite the point. In France, the homogeneity of language is largely the product of an aggressive policy, from the French Revolution through to the late 20th century, of seeking to stamp out all regional and minority languages. Breton is not even a Romance language, and its speakers are down from 1.3 million in 1930 to about 200,000 now, most of them old. The French are probably no more Latin than the English are Germanic, and that's another discussion to be had. Moonraker2 (talk) 17:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

• Well, the case of the Bretons is also the case of some Spanish minorities like the Bask. And Spain also pushed heavily towards linguistic unity in the past. That doesn't make France less Latin than Spain. It makes both similar. Quest09 (talk) 18:26, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

As I see it, Francophobia in the US (and I imagine in Britain as well) has its roots in Anglo-puritanicalism. The French have a (historically well-deserved) reputation for being sexually liberal, and particularly for female sexual independence (start with joan of arc and work your way through the post French-revolution licentiousness to the common-place nudity on the modern French riviera); in the old US west bordellos were always modeled on French themes, and much of the modern sexual vocabulary in the US has french roots (from French kissing to French ticklers to French-maid costumes to liaisons, frottage, and menage-a trois). Upright (uptight) people in the US have historically viewed anything 'French' as sketchy and/or distasteful, and that prudishness always resurfaces whenever there's some other (more prosaic) reason to be irritated at the French.--Ludwigs2 17:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with your assumptions, and even if that's the perception in the US I don't think it is in the UK, which has few Puritans and is as liberal about sexuality as the French, or more so. Moonraker2 (talk) 17:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

My mother's dad was always called a Frenchman and many of his neighbours considered him to have been different from themselves. There is something sexually-threatening about the French; this sentiment was expressed in the film the Scarlet Letter. Anne Boleyn's appeal partially derived from the fact that she was educated in France and spent her formative years there.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

James Joyce had a lovely quote about the attitude of the Anglo-Saxons towards the French: "Our civilization, bequeathed to us by fierce adventurers, eaters of meat and hunters, is so full of hurry and combat, so busy about many things which perhaps are of no importance, that it cannot but see something feeble in a civilization which smiles as it refuses to make the battlefield the test of excellence." And there's a great moment in Fer de Lance where Nero Wolfe advises his assistant: "To pronounce French properly you must have within you a deep antipathy, not to say scorn, for some of the most sacred of the Anglo-Saxon prejudices." LANTZY^TALK 19:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Joyce obviously did not realise that the Normans who invaded England and spawned a long line of fierce warrior kings came from France, Joan of Arc was French, the armies of Louis XIV and Napoleon were French. Author Michael Ennis described the French Army prior to the Second World War as having been the most vaunted military force in the world. Listen to the words of their national anthem : "To arms citizens, to arms...."--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:59, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Alexis de Tocqueville had an interesting observation, in "Voyage en Angleterre et en Irlande": The French want no-one to be their superior. The English want inferiors. The Frenchman constantly raises his eyes above him with anxiety. The Englishman lowers his beneath him with satisfaction. On either side it is pride, but understood in a different way. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Everybody wants to rule the world....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 20:15, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Some people are Francophiles, and probably some Francophiles are Basques (especially French Basques). Also, the article "Tourism in France" (permanent link here) refers to France as "the most popular tourist destination in the world".

—Wavelength (talk) 21:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Online trending site

I'm looking for a website that shows trending in retail business. Specifically, I want to see an up-to-date list of things people are purchasing online. Google used to do that with their cart system, but don't anymore. eBay has a tiny trending thing that is updated once a day. Searching for anything like this keeps hitting dead ends. -- kainaw™ 15:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

This is commercially valuable information you seek. Why should Google et.al. give it away to you for free?--Aspro (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are commercially valuable too. Why would anyone provide an encyclopedia for free?
Does Google trends help at all? Shadowjams (talk) 22:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Buddhist iconography and Chinese fictional literature

There is a motif in Buddhist iconography where the celestial bird Garuda sits above the Buddha's throne. The theme was obviously known in China as the Chinese folk biography The Story of Yue Fei (1684) mentions Garuda being demoted from this position after killing the embodiment of a star constellation and subsequently being reborn on earth as Yue Fei. The earlier fantasy novel Journey to the West (1592) gives a folk origin for how Garuda, called a Golden Peng Bird in the novel, came to hold such a rank in the Buddhist hierarchy. When did this iconographic motif make its way into China and do other works of Chinese fiction mention it? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The Garuda article discusses what I think you are asking somewhat:

In the Qing Dynasty fiction The Story of Yue Fei (1684), Garuda sits at the head of the Buddha's throne. But when a celestial bat (an embodiment of the Aquarius constellation) farts during the Buddha’s expounding of the Lotus Sutra, Garuda kills her and is exiled from paradise. He is later reborn as Song Dynasty General Yue Fei. The bat is reborn as Lady Wang, wife of the traitor Prime Minister Qin Hui, and is instrumental in formulating the "Eastern Window" plot that leads to Yue's eventual political execution. It is interesting to note The Story of Yue Fei plays on the legendary animosity between Garuda and the Nagas when the celestial bird-born Yue Fei defeats a magic serpent who transforms into the unearthly spear he uses throughout his military career. Literary critic C.T. Hsia explains the reason why Qian Cai, the book's author, linked Yue with Garuda is because of the homology in their Chinese names. Yue Fei's style name is Pengju (鵬舉). A Peng (鵬) is a giant mythological bird likened to the Middle Eastern Roc. Garuda's Chinese name is Golden-Winged Illumination King Great Peng (大鵬金翅明王).

(Is that business about farting for real...?) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 18:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I guess so, per you, GE, way back in 2008! So I take it you know all that already... WikiDao ☯ (talk) 18:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the bit about farting is real. I just need to know when the Garuda motif first appeared in Chinese Buddhism and if it appears in other works of fiction beyond the two I listed. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Muslim belt in Toronto?

Somebody told me that the Muslim belt of Toronto consists of neighbourhoods Don Valley Village, Henry Farm, Parkswoods-Donalda, Victoria Village, Flemingdon Park, O'Connor-Parkview, Thorncliffe Park, and Crescent Town. Is this true? But I think he (the who told me) said that it is because of they are from Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.40.217 (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back! --Sean 19:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Gay king

Hypothesize a gay king. Ferdinand the Fabulous. Baudoin the Bear. Of Spain or the Netherlands or Sweden or something, it doesn't matter. All those countries recognize same-sex marriage, so there would be no legal impediment to his marrying another man. But how would it square with the rules and customs of the monarchy? (Naturally, this will differ from one country to another.) Would the husband be treated like a man who had married (ahem) a queen regnant? (Like the Duke of Edinburgh, in other words.) Would he be informally accorded some sort of lesser ennoblement, so as to avoid either changing the rules or appearing homophobic? Or would he be ignored altogether, and be, from the perspective of the crown, a mere "good friend"? Considering the marked tolerance of Europe's monarchies towards gay people, I wonder if this contingency has ever been contemplated, perhaps by the royal families themselves. It seems like it would put them in quite a bind: On the one hand they're desperate to remain in the people's good graces, but on the other hand their rituals and procedures are frequently tied closely to churches, which are usually homophobic. (The only exception would seem to be in Scandinavia.) LANTZY^TALK 20:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

It's funny to contemplate that, no matter whether it's a king and his husband or a queen and her wife, the outcome is still two queens. :)

It seems unthinkable, but so did an ambassador presenting his credentials to a monarch, accompanied by his gay partner - until it happened. Your scenario would truly be the last bastion, Lantzy. (Until, that is, the Roman Catholic Church permits married clergy, and also approves of same-sex relationships. Is it too much to dream that one day we might see a Pope blessing the crowds, with his husband by his side?) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

December 3

A few questions about 1000 push-ups (press-ups)

About doing 1,000 push-ups non-stop. Please put whether it's been verified or not.

1. Other than Jack Lalanne, are there any famous people who have been able to do 1000 pushups? Possibly martial artists like Bruce Lee or Jet Li? I know Herchel Walker and Bo Jackson did lots of push-ups, but don't know how many they could do consecutive.

2. What's the youngest anybody has been able to do 1,000 pushups? Oldest?

3. When was the earliest (reasonably believeable) claim of being able to do 1000 pushups?

4. Have any women been able to do 1000 pushups? What's the record for consecutive pushups for a woman?

5. Are there any rough estimates of how many people can do 1000 pushups? Even a ballpark figure... dozens? Hundreds? 1 in a million? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.22.79.251 (talk) 00:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

According to this list of records, Minoru Yoshida did 10,507 non-stop. Various other entries on the list suggest it's not all that hard (for some guys) to exceed 1000. It also claims that one woman did 190 in 3 minutes, while another female managed 450 in 10 minutes. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Four-year-old boy, 40 minutes: 1482 pushups. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)