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Books by Norman Finkelstein

Norman Finklestein is a political scientist and activist. He writes on the Holocaust and the Israeli-Arab conflict. He has written a few books on the latter, and I wanted to know if they were reliable for verifying general statements in related articles due to their contentious and controversial nature.
Thanks, — Davest3r08 >:) ^(talk) 23:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

• Caution While originally an academic, he has not held any academic position for decades (as far as I know) and he is indeed controversial. That doesn't mean he can't be right on fact, but probably wiser to have other sources to back it up. I wouldn't rely only on him, especially not for any contentious claim. Jeppiz (talk) 23:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

  While I would agree that relying on him alone could be problematic, and I am in disagreement with a number of his views, the claim that he has not held any academic position for decades is incorrect even according to our own article on him. He left DePaul in 2007, and also taught in Turkey in 2014-15, I assume as a visiting lecturer. Cheers. Ostalgia (talk) 06:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

It's hard to give a more specific answer without more specific information. He has written a number of works, and the fitness for citation may depend on which and in what context. For instance, some of his books were published with academic presses,, and university-press published books are usually the gold standards of reliability (though we continue to use a neutral tone in our writing and don't necessarily adopt the tone of the author, who in this case is known for a bold tone). That said, book reviews can provide additional information and may provide reasons for additional considerations, though be careful to comb thoroughly. A sample size of just one or two reviews (either negative or positive) may not capture the broad reception of books that have stirred as much attention as some of Finklestein's.

Being a published subject matter expert in general does lead us as Wikipedians to think other sources written by such an author are reliable, but at the same time, there is probably some wisdom in caution. The subject you are interested in citing his corpus for is designated a contentious topic, and Finkelstein has been considered a contentious man. In general, where academic scholarship is available, we'd do well to favor such over other sources, even ones written by academics (blog posts, to give a random example). P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure why you think we should favor one side of a debate - talking about his older books here. Doug Weller talk 19:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Biased perhaps but a perfectly respectable source, books such as Image and Reality of the Israel–Palestine Conflict and Beyond Chutzpah are top drawer sources. That Israel and its supporters do not approve of him is immaterial. If some view is particularly contentious, it should be rather straightforward to back those up with secondary sources and if not then, attribute. Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Caution/questionable reliability/GUNREL when it comes to facts: he has been credibly accused of questionable/misleading citations by Morris and others, has a high degree of bias bordering on fringe views (regarding Hezbollah, Hebdo, the Holocaust, and others) and has been highly controversial as a person. Some of his older works are of decent quality and can be used very selectively, but I would avoid citing him on anything in regards to law or the military due to a repeated failure to understand the subject appropriately, seen well in his coverage of the flotilla incident. FortunateSons (talk) 14:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

he has been credibly accused of questionable/misleading citations by Morris and others

Nothing about those accusations even begins to approach credibility. This is just FUD.

the Holocaust

What "fringe views" do you think he has on the Holocaust? Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I would say that they are pretty credible, but as neither of us are scholars, I think we do have to refer to those (discussed below)

They were discussed elsewhere here, and are on his wiki page, particularly in the way education about it should be done. FortunateSons (talk) 10:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Highly reliable source, his works are published by respected academic presses, such as University of California Press, and in peer-reviewed journals. His latest work, Gaza: An Inquest in to its Martyrdom, is from University of California Press. People not liking Finkelstein's positions is not relevant to this, he is absolutely a subject matter expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and his academic works are WP:SCHOLARSHIP. The above comment is astounding in its attempt to dismiss one of the most cited scholars on the topic of Gaza because is is supposedly a "highly controversial person". Top tier source, and totally fine for usage here. If some source disagrees with him and it is of equal reliability then attribute the different views. nableezy - 20:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Extreme caution - I'd avoid using him for anything beyond actual opinion; he's a wildly controversial resource, hasn't held a serious job in academia since the mid-2000s, and has genuinely fringe views on a variety of topics, including Holocaust denial and discredited anti-Semite David Irving and support for the October 7 attacks. There's very little reason to use him when far superior and less inflammatory sources, without fringe baggage, are widely available. Toa Nidhiki05 14:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

That is a straightforward BLP violation and if you do not substantiate the wildly inappropriate claim that the son of Holocaust survivors has denied it in any way I’ll be asking for a BLP and PIA ban in short order. nableezy - 15:13, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

His stance that Holocaust denial should be taught in schools by Holocaust deniers is absolutely, unequivocally fringe. That's what I'm referring to - well, that and supporting the "scholarship" of David Irving, which is pretty uniformly regarded to be discredited. That your first thought was to threaten a noticeboard report is really unfortunate. Toa Nidhiki05 15:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh for Christ's sake. Like Chomsky, Finkelstein, the son of Holocaust survivors, whose whole life and scholarship reflects the impact of their witness, has no fear of fools, denialists. Their maniacal obsessions with apparently incongruent details in the Holocaust literature occasionally stimulates close re-examination of things by now taken for granted - not the holocaust in all of its overwhelming realities, but details in the narrative. Great scholars don't tremble and run. They chase down anomalies even among crank literature because their self-assurance about the general narrative will never be troubled by tidbits of discrepancy. That is not fringe. That is the pursuit of meticulousness, even when analysing motherlodes of bullshit (which is what Finkelstein in his analytical works on the endless misreportage of events in the I/P conflict, does professionally. Had you read that article carefully, you would have noted that its reasoning, far from being fringe, draws on the liberal tolerance of dissent, all the better to challenge it, espoused by John Stuart Mill. Nishidani (talk) 16:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

This question should not be posed. Finkelstein is an outstanding historian of the I/P conflict, and like everyone else writing academically about it, he has a decided point of view. The refusal to allow him tenure against the consensus of his colleagues, under external pressure, in no way disqualifies him as an historian or political scientist. The University of California published, after a decade of ostracism, his work, Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom, and his earlier works were unconditionally supported by the founding father of Holocaust studies, Raul Hilberg. His citation index by peers shows the depth of the impact of his work Nishidani (talk) 16:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

His view is you don't win a debate by shutting down the opposition, you win by proving it wrong. That isnt fringe, and it has nothing to do with his academically published works. nableezy - 04:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

It is absolutely fringe to suggest holocaust deniers should have any role in the education system whatsoever, let alone that holocaust denial should be taught in schools. And that's not the only thing he's fringe on - since being fired in the 2000s (he hasn't actually had a job in academia since - as of 2016, he had been unemployed for ten years, and he's not been employed since), his work and viewpoints have become increasingly problematic. This includes, as I listed above, the strong defense of David Irving (an unrepentant Holocaust denier whose works have been generally regarded as discredited), the advocacy for teaching holocaust denial in schools, a staunch defense of antisemitic tropes (specifically, justifying claims that the Jews "think they are better than other people", "talk about the Holocaust too much", and are "tapped into the networks of power and privilege") and more recently, the denial of any sexual violence during the October 7 attacks (which he also applauded and compared to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising). In other words: whatever credibility he had during his early academic career, it's been nearly two decades since he had a job in academia, and it really shows. Toa Nidhiki05 13:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Can't see anything there about his academically published works, see section title. Selfstudier (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

He hasn't been in academia in nearly 20 years at this point. Toa Nidhiki05 14:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

That isn’t true and his last book, again published by University of California Press, is from 2021. nableezy - 14:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

From the sourceI linked: "He hasn’t held a steady academic job since DePaul University denied him tenure under political pressure in 2007. Now, after years of sporadic work and low pay as an adjunct, Finkelstein is suddenly spending ten hours a day fielding emails from people clamoring for his insights." That's from December 2023. So I suppose he has been in academia, insofar as being an adjunct professor qualifies. I think broadly, my point still stands though - there's a clear divide between Finklestein's work before and after his leave from academia. Toa Nidhiki05 14:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

He was at Sakarya University Middle East Institute 2014–15. And he still is considered an expert source by the well regarded academic presses that publish his work, as recently as a book from the University of California Press in 2021. A scholar who is writing in the area of his expertise in works published by well regarded university presses is WP:SCHOLARSHIP, and no amount of whining about views you dont like changes that. nableezy - 14:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

His stance that Holocaust denial should be taught in schools by Holocaust deniers

Nothing in the linked source supports such a flagrant miscontruction of his views. Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Per the source cited on Norman Finkelstein: “Holocaust denial does constitute an actual or potential contagion”, then it should be taught in academic institutions “to inoculate students”.

He continues: “To profess both that Holocaust denial shouldn’t be taught and that it poses a clear and present danger defies logic. [1] FortunateSons (talk) 10:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

So what? nableezy - 10:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I am just responding to the question at hand (and his direct response to my comment), specifically the question of highly biased or fringe views regarding some topics. FortunateSons (talk) 10:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The question at hand being "is Norman Finkelstein a reliable source for verifying claims regarding I/P"? I understand the OP included the Holocaust in their post, but frankly I would be shocked if there's a Holocaust article that would be incomplete without citing a work of his. Remsense诉 10:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The issue would probably more apparent in cases of alleged instrumentalisation of the holocaust, where this sort of opinion (on how it should be thought) may be significant FortunateSons (talk) 10:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

That says that students should be taught Holocaust denial as a topic as part of the syllabus to inoculate them from it. This is the opposite of saying it should be taught to students "by holocaust deniers", which seems like a BLP violation. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

That’s the context for the quotes in the article, the relevant direct passage is „that Holocaust denial should be taught in university and preferably by a Holocaust denier.” FortunateSons (talk) 11:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, I remember that quote. That's clearly a tongue-in-cheek piece of commentary with some layers to it, but it definitely does grant some lenience regarding the above. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you FortunateSons (talk) 11:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Toa Nidhiki05: You should strike the part where you say his views include Holocaust denial. That's a BLP violation because it's not true. He's the son of Holocaust survivors, he doesn't deny that the Holocaust happened. Levivich (talk) 13:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I did not say his views include Holocaust denial. I said he has fringe views on Holocaust denial, specifically that he supports teaching it in schools, and has publicly defended David Irving, a notorious Holocaust denier whose work has been discredited. I can clarify that specifically, but I have not accused him of being a Holocaust denier, and my wording was fairly careful, I think. Toa Nidhiki05 14:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok I appreciate the clarification, thanks. FWIW, the way it was phrased, I read it as you saying that "Holocaust denial" was one of the fringe views on a variety of subjects that he held, not that he held fringe views about Holocaust denial, but I understand what you mean. I'm not sure his views are actually fringe (as opposed to a significant minority viewpoint), but I agree that's not a blpvio. Levivich (talk) 21:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The fact that he was denied tenure because of a targeted harassment campaign does not negatively affect his credibility. And accusing him of Holocaust denial is such a flagrant and obvious BLP violation I am absolutely dumbfounded this is allowed to stand. Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliable. He's a major political scientist, his book The Holocaust Industry has 900 Google Scholar cites [1], he has written other works that are also widely cited and well-reviewed, he is a bona fide scholar in the field. Being "controversial" does not make someone unreliable, and pretty much all high-profile scholars are controversial, like Benny Morris, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Elie Wiesel, and James Flynn come to mind. That doesn't mean we say things in Wikivoice just because Finkelstein wrote them, but Finkelstein's works are definitely WP:RS. Levivich (talk) 18:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

These 900 citations confirm that The Holocaust Industry was culturally important, but not that he is seen as serious from a scholarly point of view. I looked at one of t he first page hits at random (Byfield on conspiracy theories) and the reference to Finkelstein was about his work being used to legitimate antisemitism. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

900 citations doesn't mean it's the mainstream view, but it DOES mean that it's taken seriously. If it wasn't taken seriously, it wouldn't have been cited so many times! Even if all 900 citations are debunking Finkelstein (and of course they're not), it would still show he was taken seriously, seriously enough to be thoroughly debunked. Benny Morris is a direct parallel: widely cited, very often to be criticized, but still widely cited. Levivich (talk) 04:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree he should be taken seriously and may be due to mention in articles. Don't think that means he is "reliable for verifying general statements" as per OP's question. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Extreme caution: Extremely controversial and increasingly fringe. His early work is definitely noteworthy in relevant debates, but his views should always be attributed and his work in the last decade or two would rarely be noteworthy. For recent positions, use secondary sources to ascertain noteworthiness before using. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC) [Update: while I still hold this basic position, I believe that his books published by academic presses might be usable as sources for facts on I/P in some cases and are more reliable than those of the non-academics he criticises (e.g. Peters, Dershowitz) where he disagrees with or is contested by other scholars (e.g. Shapira, Morris) we should never use his claims in our own voice but attribute and also include and attribute disagreements. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)]

  In what world is this not a serious academic work that is noteworthy? That, from 2021, has 59 google scholar citations. Image and Reality, from 2003, has 470 scholar citations. How does a scholar with these many scholarly works cited this often in other scholarly works add up to "secondary sources to ascertain noteworthiness before using"? He is the secondary source, and he is an expert one, and treated as an expert by both the well regarded academic presses that publish his work and by the scholars that cite it. All of the objections here are on the basis of not liking his views, and that is not, and has never been, an acceptable criteria for reliability. An academic expert writing in a book published by a well regarded university press is a reliable source by definition, and no amount of baseless personal opinion on [e]xtremely controversial and increasingly fringe trumps that. If somebody wants to challenge a scholar writing in peer reviewed journals and books published by the University of California Press they can try that, but they are arguing in direct opposition to what WP:RS says. Which is rather surprising from you tbh. nableezy - 04:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Bob. Finkelstein gets its in the neck from the left and the right. The left hate his polemic against Wokism and the BDS movement, the right, or rather, people who skimread only with eyes for possible political fallout for Israel, can't come up with any serious evidence outlining some putative failure on Finkelstein's part to observe the strictest criteria for closely documenting from the historical record. It all boils down to "instrumentalisation". Finkelstein, also as the son of Holocaust survivors, one of whom got a mere pittance from Jewish institutions lucratively sueing banks, argues that Holocaust discourse is 'instrumentalized'. Enzo Traverso and others ply the worry bead that Finkelstein's results might be "instrumentalized" by antisemites. So one gets the absurd situation that if one analyses the way the Holocaust discourse is being "instrumentalised" you get attacked for providing possible grounds for antisemites to "instrumentalize" your results. So it is no longer the merits or otherwise of a 'forensic' scholarly study of a phenomenon that receive attention, but the politics of the way that critical knowledge may be manipulated and abused. Of the handful of names who count in evaluating his book on The Holocaust Industry what sticks out are the assessments by the former doyen of the discipline,Raul Hilberg (Hilberg was a Republican-voting political conservative whose methodological and empirical integrity was underlined by the fact that he defended the views of an ex-Maoist like Finkelstein, whose scholarship was judged of a high order and whose 'controversial' results he deemed 'conservative') and by Moshe Zuckermann, against their informed authority we then get a list of take-'em-or-leav'em newspaper opinionists like Jonathan Friedman, and some empty dismissive obiter dicta hearsay about Hans Mommsen. In the wiki list, the only serious scholar who challenges Finkelstein's work in terms of imputed flaws, is Peter Novick. Good, finally an evaluation that is not just shouting, but scholarly. Finkelstein duly replied, point by point. That is how serious scholarship works, beyond the breezy screedy argie-bargie of casual newspaper-type reviews which our page on the book selects, to give the impression he is 'controversial'. I don't get the impression here that many commenting editors are familiar with the field, let alone Finkelstein's work, as opposed with what can be googled up searching for polemical negativism about the man and his scholarship. He is a loner, deprived of an income for having written uncomfortable books on a topic where vast financial resources will guarantee one's career and professional security if one cautiously steps tippity-toe round the minefield of discourse on Israel , the Holocaust, where the only trump card invariably played is to accuse anyone diffident about the homely narrativization of the politics of an ethnic state and its 'normalcy' is 'antisemitism'. That is what your extreme caution really refers to in my view, extreme caution about allowing the factual record produced, for example, by Finkelstein in his recent Inquest into the Tragedy of Gaza', to get an airing. Very few reviews could elicit any notable distortion in his analysis of the facts laid out there. Nishidani (talk) 07:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

There is already enough text in this section so I won't extend this debate, but just note that I strongly take exception to your second guessing my motivations to assume bad faith and that my judgement on his reliability is a demand that facts not get an airing. That's just not true and bad WP etiquette. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Why do you highlight Moshe Zuckermann as particularly notable? His citation metrics seem low-middling, including in contrast to some other reviewers, but perhaps I'm missing some other indication of his high relevance here. Freelance-frank (talk) 16:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Serious scholarship, a bit too strident for the taste of many but passes RS. Attribute opinions as always. Zero^talk 12:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Reliable. Not just reliable, but he is among the best sources you can get on Israel/Palestine. His scholarship is based on detailed, painstaking research that few can match. BTW, I don't think he is attacking Wokeism, but rather the (obvious) sloppy reasoning that its activists sometimes use. --NSH001 (talk)
• Caution/Questionably reliable -- per FortunateSons and frankly per his own article's criticism section of him. At a bare minimum it would require attribution and probably should be avoided on contentious topics. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 19:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

That makes no sense. He is an acknowledged scholarly authority on, precisely, a 'contentious topic' .Nishidani (talk) 17:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

People don’t like his views so they pretend that’s a basis for challenging his reliability. It isn’t and never has been. nableezy - 17:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

That's a very unfair characterization of people objecting to his use as a reliable source. How does that productively contribute to this discussion? Toa Nidhiki05 18:01, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a fair characterization when there are editors voting that Finkelstein is not reliable, not based on evidence of his unreliability, but on evidence that he holds controversial views. Has he ever made a factual claim that was debunked? Has his work ever had to be retracted? Is his work widely cited by other scholars? Etc., etc. The fact that he says, e.g., Israel is a Jewish supremacist state, or that there is a Holocaust industry exploiting the Holocaust, makes him controversial but not unreliable. Levivich (talk) 18:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Well obviously he's said things that are untrue - like, for example, that no people were raped on October 7, and that no children were taken hostage, or that David Irving - a notorious Holocaust denier and discredited academic - was an excellent historian. But these don't directly relate to his academic career, I'll admit. Here's a counter: has his work in the last two decades out of academia been deemed widely cited and reliable? Even he admitted in the interview I've posted several times that nobody cared about his 2019 book, which sold a few hundred copies. I don't have an issue with his early career, insomuch as his very public, non-academic descent into some very dark places in the last two decades. Simply put: there are dozens of credible historians who don't have the specific bias problems or extreme viewpoints Finklestein does, and would be far better served as reputable sources in his place. There may be circumstances where Finklestein's opinion is noteworthy, but that's as an opinion, not an objective source of fact. I think that's a fairly nuanced take. Toa Nidhiki05 18:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I’ve posted the citations to his 2021 work published by University of California Press already. nableezy - 18:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

And I'll say it again: if Finkelstein is unreliable because of the controversial views he holds, then Benny Morris must also be unreliable because of the controversial views he holds (like, "they should have finished the ethnic cleansing"). But of course that's not how WP:RS works. Levivich (talk) 18:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

This is a discussion about Norman Finkelstein, not other people. I wouldn't be inclined to think anyone who supports ethnic cleansing should be regarded as a reliable source. Toa Nidhiki05 18:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

(replying to both here) In both cases, you're judging a source's reliability based on the opinions the author holds. The idea that we shouldn't use a source because we disagree with the author's opinion is totally wrong, that's nothing but censorship. Finkelstein's comments about Oct. 7 have absolutely zero relevance to whether his works prior to then, e.g. 2000's The Holocaust Industry, are reliable or not.

"deemed widely cited and reliable" is such a nonsense phrase, Toa. You know damn well that nobody "deems" works to be "widely cited and reliable" ... well, except Wikipedia.

But yes, his works have been widely cited. I already linked to Holocaust Industry's 950 citations. His 2018 book Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom has 59 Google scholar cites, not exactly overwhelming, but certainly enough to call it "widely cited" (in this field), and it's been favorably reviewed (see cites in the Wikipedia article).

More impressive is his 2005 book Beyond Chutzpah, which has 358 Google Scholar cites.

So, yeah, still a scholar, still widely cited, and his controversial opinions are not a reason to call him unreliable in the Wikipedia sense. Levivich (talk) 18:34, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Relative to academic historians in the field, 59 citations doesn't actually seem like a lot. Your other example is from his academic time, which I'm not contesting. Aren't there other historians who have actually been in academia in the last two decades, without a track record of genuinely inflammatory remarks (again, the David Irving thing - I've not seen a response to this, at all, but defending his status as a historian is a very, very big red flag. He's widely and uniformly regarded not just as a Holocaust denier, but a fraud). I would say the same thing about a historian from the Israeli side with a similar record, too - there is no shortage of academic work on this matter. Toa Nidhiki05 18:43, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Which books not reliable, according to you? Selfstudier (talk) 18:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I would consider his post-academic body of work one that should be used with extreme caution. I believe I've said this multiple times now. Toa Nidhiki05 18:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

So not this one? 2012: Knowing Too Much: Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel is Coming to an End, OR Books, New York (2012) ISBN 978-1-935928-77-5 which seems right on the money, at least going by the title.

Just to be clear, you assert that all of his published material since 2007? is unreliable? Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

His 2018 Gaza book getting 59 cites is not a lot but it's not nothing, either. For comparison, Ilan Pappe's 2017 book about Gaza has 91 cites. Levivich (talk) 06:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Serious caution and consider WP:DUE weight As best as I’m aware, Finkelstein’s work, while high-profile, is highly controversial and does not always represent academic consensus. As such, it probably shouldn’t be used without attribution, or even with it without consulting opposing views and ensuring due weight.

If NPOV policy and DUE mean that WP is nothing but an establishment mouthpiece, so be it. There are limits to our discretion in generating a big picture from raw data because we are a tertiary or sometimes even quaternary source. I believe there’s an essay about it somewhere (actually multiple iirc).

Further information: Dershowitz–Finkelstein affair

and its reference list

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 17:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Follow Wikipedia sourcing guidelines - exercise caution. It's hard to respond to such a general question, but it's clear that he disagrees sharply with many no less eminent scholars. Therefore we should not assume that whatever he wrote represents the scholarly consensus and should seek other voices. Alaexis_¿question? 21:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Unreliable specifically regarding American Holocaust consciousness from 1948-1967 as argued in The Holocaust Industry. Finkelstein and Novick both played a role in promoting and popularizing this idea, but reviewers of Hasia Diner's 2009 book We Remember with Reverence and Love universally suggest that this conception lacked substantive empirical backing to start with and has been dispatched by Diner's work. For instance, Kevin Spicer in his American Historical Review piece says: "In this work, Hasia R. Diner dismantles the claim promoted by Peter Novick and Norman G. Finkelstein, among others, that American Jews 'made little of the Holocaust, pushing it to the hidden corners and indeed, under the rug of their communal lives' until the 1961 Adolf Eichmann trial, which brought the horrors of the Nazi period into prominent focus (p. 4). By contrast, through extensive archival research Diner more than convincingly reveals the opposite." Henry L. Feingold in the Journal of American History concurs that Diner "completes the process of putting those false charges to rest", while Stephen J. Feingold in the American Historical Review states that "the evidence... is quite overwhelming. So resourcefully has Diner tracked down sermons and song lyrics, posters and programs, that this reviewer finds it hard to imagine any future historians continuing to perpetuate the claims that an explicit communal consciousness of the Holocaust did not really surface until the 1960s."

For what it is worth, scholars questioned Finkelstein's spotty archival work shortly after publication of THI. David Cesarani points out many major productions and publications Finkelstein missed or downplayed in his 2000 review for Times Higher Education alongside other critiques, for instance. Freelance-frank (talk) 23:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Disagreement from other scholars is not a case for unreliability. Zero^talk 07:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

True, but widespread disagreement from actual Holocaust scholars should make us use him as a source on the Holocaust only with extreme caution and attribution, making sure to triangulate with other scholars. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Finkelstein is an actual Holocaust scholar, and this effort to redefine scholar to only include people you agree with is not in keeping with WP policies and guidelines. nableezy - 15:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Finklestein is not, in fact, a Holocaust scholar. WWII/ Holocaust scholars roundly reject the work of Holocaust denier David Irving, who Finklestein regards as a great scholar. Toa Nidhiki05 16:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if anybody is citing David Irving, so I dont see the relevance, but Finkelstein's work The Holocaust Industry received positive reviews from Raul Hilberg for example. Yes it also had negative reviews, but so do most academic works. That doesnt diminish that they are works of scholarships written by scholars. nableezy - 16:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It's true that Hilberg (a great Holocaust scholar) did to some endorse Finkelstein's book, but he is an outlier. Finkelstein was a scholar of the reception of the Holocaust, not of the Holocaust itself. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Is, but sure fine on the rest of the statement. nableezy - 19:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Finkelstein could think Hitler was a swell guy, it would still have nothing to do with the reliability of his published works. The way we know that The Holocaust Industry is an WP:RS is all the journal reviews and the 900+ citations. "The author has an opinion that's wrong, therefore his works are unreliable" is just nonsense. To show unreliability, you'd need to show his work being debunked, not his opinions being unpopular. Levivich (talk) 16:13, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

That's true of every author. That doesn't make an author not an WP:RS. Again, Benny Morris is the quintessential example of an RS that most scholars in the field disagree with strongly, but still an RS. Scholars disagree with each other, it's what they do. Levivich (talk) 15:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Finkelstein's self-description is that he is not a scholar of the Holocaust itself, but only of its popular interpretations and uses. When pressed in 2015 on his figures by Medhi Hassan, he says: "I don't claim at all to be an authority on the Nazi holocaust. The book The Holocaust Industry is not about the Nazi holocaust. It's a book about how the holocaust has been rendered in popular opinion and in so-called scholarship." Of course, I argue that he makes errors beyond this, but at the very least he says himself not to be a scholar of the Nazi genocide (though he defends the statements he makes, naturally). Freelance-frank (talk) 16:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

To ground this more concretely in guidelines, a quote from WP:RSAGE: "Especially in scientific and academic fields, older sources may be inaccurate because new information has been brought to light, new theories proposed, or vocabulary changed.... Be sure to check that older sources have not been superseded, especially if it is likely that new discoveries or developments have occurred in the last few years." I argue that a statement from a review like the one I quote above indicates such a development ("...this reviewer finds it hard to imagine any future historians continuing to perpetuate the claims..."), which is a statement on both academic consensus and validity of the older argument.

The next paragraph says, "Sometimes sources are too new to use, such as with breaking news (where later reports might be more accurate), and primary sources which purport to debunk a long-standing consensus or introduce a new discovery". I argue that this is not an issue with Diner's book based on the following parenthetical, which suggests "awaiting reviews that validate the methods". The three reviews satisfy this. Freelance-frank (talk) 22:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Reliable: as an exceptionally knowledgeable subject-matter expect. I find it surprising to even see this questioned. If his views are left field then they should be attributed, as should any views, from anyone. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Most arguments made above are rather poor and miss the point, and that applies to both the arguments for and against Finkelstein. The real question should be on his academic credentials. There as well, there are pros and cons. In his favour, his books are often published by high quality academic publishing houses, that definitely helps. Against him, he has not held any academic position for a very long time. Those aspects should both be weighed, but whether he is controversial or not is not the question (or should not be). The question is what his academic credentials are. Jeppiz (talk) 16:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Worth bearing in mind that his lack of tenure has itself been the source of controversy, see Dershowitz–Finkelstein affair, so a slightly murky and muddied metric in this case. Better to defer to his academic citations. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  The Dershowitz affair was nearly two decades ago. It would be silly to suggest his inability to find work in academia to this day is not because of that incident alone. Toa Nidhiki05 17:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  What do you mean, "his inability to find work in academia"? What is that based on? He publishes a book like almost every year. Levivich (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  He has not had a full-time job in academia since 2006, Levivich. Toa Nidhiki05 18:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  He hasn’t held a steady academic job since DePaul University denied him tenure under political pressure in 2007. Now, after years of sporadic work and low pay as an adjunct, Finkelstein is suddenly spending ten hours a day fielding emails from people clamoring for his insights.

  "People clamoring for his insights" ... hmmmmm... Levivich (talk) 18:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Does it define who these people are? But again, like I said before, he doesn't work in academia and hasn't in several decades. That is a mark against him. Toa Nidhiki05 19:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Publishing academic books counts as working in academia. And the same source you cited says he has worked at universities, but sporadically and as a low paid adjunct, since being denied tenure. That isn't "not working" that's "working." Also, he was denied tenure in 2007; that's not "several decades" ago, it's 16 years. You are not being accurate in your statements here. And his subsequent employment history has no bearing anyway on the reliability of his published works. Levivich (talk) 20:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  And he has held multiple academic posts since then. nableezy - 17:05, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Which academic positions has he held since 2007? Jeppiz (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  At Sakarya University Middle East Institute from 2014-15. nableezy - 22:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  That's an honest mistake, but teaching for a year at a university is not the same as holding an academic position. I can understand the confusion, but lots of universities have occasional lecturers who may teach for a semester or a couple of semesters, but who are not part of the faculty. There is no indication Finkelstein ever held a faculty position at Sakarya. Also, as you wrote that he has held "multiple academic posts", could you please name the others you had in mind? Jeppiz (talk) 22:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  That Finkelstein's academic career prospects were crushed by political pressure which led the university to ignore the very strong support he had both from faculty and his students in favour of tenure is well known, not controversial. When you are denied tenure, and your teaching terminated, it virtually condemns you to unemployment because any other university mulling hiring him would have to evaluate whether the inevitable public (sectorial) outcry and hullabaloo was worth the candle. When 11 years later, the University of California published his book on Gaza's Martyrdom, it flagged an acknowledgemen that his scholarship was still of the fine order demanded by that high quality academic publisher. There's no need to rub his face into the ground remarking on his poverty, unemployed status as if he were somewhow culpable. Most academics get their Phd published to secure tenure, and, once secure, enjoy their sinecures and leisurely teaching. It takes an exceptional character to bear the humiliation he suffered and still persist in the careful scholarship he manages to sustain even in very difficult personal circumstances. Nishidani (talk) 23:15, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thats just silly, I didnt say he was part of the faculty, but an adjunct professor is an academic position. I may have been mistaken on multiple however, seem to recall reading about a position in Europe but I cant find it now. But regardless, he continues to be treated as an academic expert by well regarded publishers, like the University of California Press. Unless you are of the belief that just any random schmuck can get through their review process? nableezy - 23:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Academic credentials, at least as far as professorship alone, do not seem to be terribly useful indicators of reliability. Freelance-frank (talk) 21:58, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, aren't their creationist and climate-denying and heavens-knows-what-else professors out there? And of course, Alan Dershowitz has tenure ... Iskandar323 (talk) 22:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Exactly. Freelance-frank (talk) 23:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  How about publishing works through prestigious university presses? nableezy - 22:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  It's definitely not nothing, but heaps of academic garbage get through peer review, with that problem more acute in some circles than others. The arguments above about citation metrics are somewhat more compelling to me than the argument about peer review alone since high citation metrics suggest people (whether in agreement, disagreement, or ridicule) at least seek fit to reference Finkelstein's work. Regarding his I/P books, plenty of the citations are to heavy hitters who I assume are referencing Finkelstein substantively. Exploration not only of the numbers, but also highlighting of some of the individuals using Finkelstein and how they are using him might improve the arguments so far, as would discussion of reviews. From poking around a little, there are some nice reviews one could reference, though some of the reviews themselves underline Finkelstein's presence at only the margins of academic discourse. Freelance-frank (talk) 23:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Scholarship reliable This is a malformed request, because questions of source reliability go beyond authorship and include considerations of peer-review, editorial board review, and publisher oversight. Nevertheless, where Finkelstein has been published by an academic press there is no doubt his books or journal publications are highly reliable on the topic. His work is rigorous and maintains a close and careful attention to detail. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is a very good point. We shouldn’t be making a blanket assessment of his reliability. We can assume that his book published by UC Press has gone through a more rigorous editorial and fact checking process and therefore would be considerably more reliable than his self-published blogposts, articles published by the Nazi magazine Unz Review or his book on the ICC published by OR Books, which calls itself an “alternative publisher”. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  That isn’t how we treat established experts published by serious university presses, an expert source writing in yellow ink in the snow is still a reliable source. nableezy - 09:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

break (Syndication in Unz Review)

• Bobfrombrockley I actually had not known Finklestein publishes his work in the Unz Report, which is a virulently far-right, white nationalist, and antisemitic outlet. This has actually attracted negative attention from academia - this article from Portland State University says "The Unz Review is a “mix of far-right and far-left anti-Semitic crackpottery, from 9/11 ‘truther’ and conspiracy theorist Paul Craig Roberts to ‘Holocaust industry’ critic Norman Finkelstein, who believes Jews exploit the Holocaust to justify oppressing Palestinians”. Finkelstein is, evidently, funded by the Unz Foundation as well. Add that as another strike against his credibility. Toa Nidhiki05 22:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  If only Finkelstein wasn't "academia" you might have a point. nableezy - 23:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's possible for academics to be unreliable and criticized by other academics in their field. This has happened with Norman Finkelstein. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  There remains zero evidence for that statement. nableezy - 06:06, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Nableezy

  I suggest you look at NF wikipedia article under the section "Reception" and "Criticism". Vegan416 (talk) 07:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well aware of it. You also don’t need to ping me here. nableezy - 10:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  That's not an article from Portland State University, it's a conference paper written by two people who work at PSU. The paper is partially quoting an op-ed by Cathy Young in The Federalist, but the full quote is more nuanced:

  The Unz Review, founded by maverick businessman Ron Unz as a forum for non-mainstream perspectives, is somewhat more eclectic; but much of this eclecticism is a mix of far-right and far-left anti-Semitic crackpottery, from 9/11 “truther” and conspiracy theorist Paul Craig Roberts to “Holocaust industry” critic Norman Finkelstein, who believes Jews exploit the Holocaust to justify oppressing Palestinians.

  The Wikipedia articles on The Unz Review (and Ron Unz) have additional sources. While I wouldn't consider The Unz Review an RS, just because Finkelstein is published there or receives money from them doesn't have any bearing on the reliability of his works published elsewhere, e.g. university presses. Levivich (talk) 01:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well, at this point we know he's praised the scholarship of notorious academic fraud and Holocaust denier David Irving, and that he writes for and is paid by a website that is notorious for white supremacy and antisemitism. Additionally, he's not been in academia for nearly two decades, and his work is not uniformly praised in academia itself. I don't really see the merits of using him on this encyclopedia, honestly. Toa Nidhiki05 02:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not going to repeat my responses to all those points as they have been well covered above. The merits of using him on this encyclopedia is that NPOV means we summarize all significant viewpoints, even the viewpoints we disagree with. To do otherwise would be censorship. We are neutral to the viewpoints of reliable sources, and so long as Finkelstein's works receive many citations, and he's published by academic publishers and cited by other scholars in the field (all of which is indisputable), he is an RS. Controversial scholars are still scholars, and former professors with many Google scholar cites who are published by university presses are scholars. There is no guilt-by-association exception to WP:NPOV or WP:RS. His books on the Holocaust Industry, or on Gaza, don't suddenly become non-RSes because of what he says about David Irving, or because he's published by Unz. Levivich (talk) 03:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  And I'll say it again, for what it's worth: being published by a genuine white nationalist outlet is an enormous red flag, in my opinion. It's far from the only reason I'm skeptical of using him, but association with fringe, alt-right or white nationalist figures is absolutely something that reflects very poorly on a source's credibility. Toa Nidhiki05 03:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  See also association fallacy. nableezy - 04:45, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  It’s not an association fallacy when, presumably, he’s the one who chose to write for a far-right website. I’m not accusing him of being a white nationalist, but writing for fringe, far right websites is not typically a hallmark of an indisputably reliable source. Toa Nidhiki05 05:01, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  If you want to characterize it as a red flag, that's fine. The question then becomes "to what end?" You can't just gesture to it repeatedly unless it might actually mean something, something which you've yet to articulate.

  Can you point to any examples of specific problems with his actual work you'd like to discuss? Preferably beyond mere disagreements with colleagues, per above. Frankly, that's the only worthwhile focus for this discussion, the rest has so far amounted to hot air, I'm afraid. Remsense诉 05:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  For Pete's sake, a publication dedicated to publishing non-mainstream views that publishes both far-right and far-left views is not a far-right website or a Nazi website. Finkelstein is politically left-of-center not right-of-center, and he's the son of Holocaust survivors, so obviously nobody thinks he's a white supremacist. Levivich (talk) 05:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  Can't believe I'm having to prove this, but the Unz Review is, in fact, uniformly regarded as far-right, white nationalist website:

• The Guardian: "carries columns from avowed neo-Nazis and racists... a one-stop shop for hate from many different vantage points"
• Seattle Times: "a far-right website criticized by the Anti-Defamation League as hosting racist and antisemitic content"
• Rolling Stone: "antisemitic blog"
• Anti-Defamation League: "a fringe platform that regularly hosts bigoted content"
• CNN: "a website that has published Holocaust denialism and columns in support of White nationalism"
• Southern Poverty Law Center: "white nationalist publication"
• Mother Jones: "white nationalist publication"
• Kansas City Star: "a website that includes white nationalist and anti-Semitic content"
• New York Times: "far-right"

  This was all from a cursory 10-minute search. I am not arguing he's a white supremacist (although he does hold a number of views associated with the far right, including transphobia and supporting Russia's genocidal war against Ukraine, neither of which are especially relevant here). But I do strongly believe that writing for a white nationalist website is a massive, massive red flag for credibility. Toa Nidhiki05 13:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Forum, including ad hom attacks, irrelevant to reliability

Is Norman Finkelstein now a white nationalist? Is that what you’re arguing? nableezy - 14:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Did you actually read what I said? Because if you did, you'd find the answer to what you're asking. Toa Nidhiki05 14:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC) I'm amazed you think that list of quotes supports "white supremacist." Just to take the first one, "a one-stop shop for hate from many different vantage points," well "many different vantage points" doesn't mean one vantage point (white supremacy, or far-right). Also, are you of the belief that "far right" and "white supremacy" are the same thing? They're not. White supremacy is far right, but there are also Black people on the far right, and Jews on the far right, e.g. non-white-supremacist far-right. White supremacism isn't the only kind of racism. There are far-right Israelis who are not white supremacists, for example. Maybe read Far-right politics and White supremacy. Levivich (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC) I did, you said he is not a white supremacist and then claimed he holds "a number of views associated with the far right". So despite your claim that you are not arguing something it sure looks like you are. Either way, not liking where somebody is published does not, in any way, detract from his scholarship or somehow make him not a scholar. nableezy - 15:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC) I also said neither of those views are directly relevant to the topic at hand - I only mentioned them because of Levivich's assertion he's uniformly left-of-center, when the reality is more complicated than that. Toa Nidhiki05 15:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC) It's actually not that complicated. It seems Finkelstein would gladly join hands with anyone who is anti-Israeli. While Finkelstein himself is probably from the extreme left, he has no problem associating with people from the extreme US right, like those white supremacists in Unz, or from the extreme Muslim right like Hamas and Hezbollah, just because of their common hatred towards Israel Vegan416 (talk) 16:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Not forum, again. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC) I just answered @Nableezy's question "Is Norman Finkelstein now a white nationalist?". You can't ask a question and then when someone answers it, claim that it is not the forum to discuss this question. If it's not the forum then why did you ask that question here? Vegan416 (talk) 16:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC) I advise you to refactor that personal attack before it is reported. nableezy - 16:27, 4 April 2024 (UTC) What personal attack? Against Finkelstein? Was anything I said here about him incorrect? Vegan416 (talk) 16:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC) "he has no problem associating with people from the extreme US right, like those white supremacists in Unz, or from the extreme Muslim right like Hamas and Hezbollah, just because of their common hatred towards Israel" Levivich (talk) 17:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC) What part of this is incorrect? He did publish in Unz. He did went to Lebanon to visit the Hezbollah. He publicly praised Hamas October 7 attack on Israel. https://www.unz.com/nfinkelstein/ https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/norman-finkelstein-claims-that-hezbollah-represents-hope https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-israel-activists-celebrate-hamas-attacks-have-killed-hundreds-israelis Vegan416 (talk) 17:17, 4 April 2024 (UTC) "because of their common hatred towards Israel" Levivich (talk) 17:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Are you denying that Finkelstein, Unz, Hamas and Hezbullah all hate Israel??? Vegan416 (talk) 17:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Which reliable source says that? Selfstudier (talk) 17:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC) First of all, what does "hate Israel" mean exactly? Hate the current Israeli government? I hate the current Israeli government. I hate what they're doing in Gaza. Does that make me a white supremacist or far-right? Does that mean I share with Hamas and Hezbollah a "common hatred towards" the current Israeli government? Yes, actually, I guess I do share a common hatred towards Bibi's policies with Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran and probably all Palestinians, all Arabs, all Muslims, and like half of the rest of the world, and lots and lots (hundreds and hundreds) of scholars. But I don't hate Israelis, I don't hate the state of Israel itself or in its entirety (I hate parts of it, the far-right parts), and I don't hate Jews. I don't think Finkelstein hates any of those either, even if he hates the current govt or certain past govts, or policies, or specific politicians. So, yeah, big there for Finkelstein's "hatred towards Israel." Levivich (talk) 17:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC) There is a bright line here between criticism of Israel and hatred of Israel. It's the celebration of the October 7 attack. Finkelstein celebrated the attack. I sincerely hope that you didn't. Vegan416 (talk) 18:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC) You are overstepping here and not the first time, either. Selfstudier (talk) 18:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC) What do you mean by "overstepping"? It is a fact that Finkelstein celebrated the October 7 attack on Israel: https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/john-browns-body-in-gaza/ And what is this reference to "not the first time"? Vegan416 (talk) 18:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC) This isnt a Zionist project, where only sources that support Israel are welcome. Unless you think that supporting what the International Court of Justice has said is plausibly genocide rules out a source, the views of our sources is not what determines their reliability. Anyway, he has said that his initial comments regarding the attack were based on the information that he had, and that he regretted his inital commentary. But even if that werent true, this isnt a project where we determine what views are allowed, no matter what somebody thinks of them. nableezy - 18:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Please read carefully what I wrote here. I didn't say anything about "not allowing his views". I'm just explaining here why I think that he hates Israel. From my point of view anyone who celebrated the October 7 attack has shown by that he viscerally hates Israel, even if later he tried to walkback from this initial gut reaction for PR reasons. Vegan416 (talk) 18:29, 4 April 2024 (UTC) I read what you wrote, and what you wrote has jack to do with reliability, which is the topic under discussion here. Once more, I do not care about your view on who hates Israel or how much they do, it is not relevant to the topic in any way. nableezy - 18:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Actually it is relevant to the subject of reliability. It is called "bias" and "partisanship". Sources that are clearly extremely biased on some topic are deemed generally less reliable as a source of facts on it than sources who are not. It doesn't necessarily mean that they should not be used altogether, because sometimes people can be biased but reliable, but caution is needed when using those sources. Vegan416 (talk) 18:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Try again. nableezy - 18:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC) ? Vegan416 (talk) 18:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC) You realize that the source you brought says exactly what I just said? Vegan416 (talk) 18:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Read it more carefully. Selfstudier (talk) 19:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC) The personal attack was the like some of his groupies here. nableezy - 17:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC) I don't see how this is a personal attack if I didn't mention any names whatsoever. But whatever. It was removed incidentally when I refactored the entire paragraph to clarify what I said about Finkelstein. Vegan416 (talk) 18:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Well I do see how, and if you make more I will be reporting it. Toodles. nableezy - 18:23, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• association with fringe, alt-right or white nationalist figures is absolutely something that reflects very poorly on a source's credibility … It’s not an association fallacy. Too easy. nableezy - 11:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  By this logic, your "his books have been published by academic presses, which means he's a reliable academic" argument doesn't hold water either. Toa Nidhiki05 13:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  Reliable publishers convey reliability; they don't convey political or ideological slants, which is what you are deducing from an online publisher. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  That’s not my argument, that’s Wikipedias. nableezy - 14:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  And they also note what I'm saying in WP:QUESTIONABLE. Toa Nidhiki05 14:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  The only thing questionable here is the beating of the dead horse. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  No, thats about sources that dont have a track record of being published by highly regarded university presses and peer reviewed journals. What actually is relevant to Finkelstein is WP:RS/SPS where it says Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. Finkelstein is an established expert in the topic of the Arab-Israeli conflict whose work has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. nableezy - 15:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  OR Books also publishes work by Bill McKibben, Simon Critchley, Slavoj Žižek, Patrick Cockburn, Douglas Rushkoff, Moustafa Bayoumi, Barney Rosset, among many others... lots of established writers and thinkers in their fields. I don't think it matters if they call themselves an "alternative publisher." I'm not really perceiving a difference between OR Books and other progressive publishers like Zed Books. Levivich (talk) 00:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  My point was simply that reliability isn't by author alone, but also by publisher. While OR is not necessarily unreliable it's clearly not as reliable as a university press (while it is clearly more reliable than Unz or Sublation). (FWIW I think Zed - like Pluto or Verso - is a cut above OR in terms of peer review and editorial process.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, yes, I completely agree with that. Levivich (talk) 17:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

In no uncertain terms, Finkelstein has done some of the most careful, erudite scholarship in the history of history, period. It is ridiculous how error-free his oeuvre has been for its sheer size. I am not impressed by the arguments to a comparative skepticism above, because they show a basic lack of familiarity with his work or its place in the field. It's necessary to make this clear because otherwise chatter in a vacuum can be given disproportionate weight, so I'm putting my thumb firmly on the scale: if there's such a thing as a reliable source about a contentious topic, it's Norman Finkelstein.

I would sometimes recommend attempting to read a scholarly work of before asking here whether it should be considered reliable. If anything, it would give the discussion more to work with than aspersions. Remsense诉 04:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

When you say "his place in the field", which field do you mean? BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• Caution: My position is that like in any case of a scholar who seems to be far from the consensus in his field, we as non-experts should prefer the consensus. Though the consensus can sometimes be wrong, and the outliers right, more often it is the other conventional way around. So it would not be right to rely on his books as a single source for controversial claims. Vegan416 (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  On what, exactly, is Finkelstein far from the consensus in his field? And how does "it would not be right to rely on his books as a single source for controversial claims" differ from how we would treat any other RS? Levivich (talk) 17:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense The problem with your argument is that unless you are yourself already an expert in the field, then reading the book wouldn't tell you if he is really done "careful, erudite scholarship" or if he is just good at peddling BS. That's why we should prefer to look close to the consensus in any field. Vegan416 (talk) 15:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, who's peddling BS? Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Any person with enough talent can peddle BS in a shiny format, that for a layman in the field would be indistinguishable from real valuable research. That's why we have to rely on other experts in the field to detect it. And that's why in wikipedia, as well as in real life, it is always advisable to rely on the consensus in each field rather than on outliers. Even though sometime it turns out eventually the outliers were right and then the consensus changes, it happens quite rarely, and as a general rule it is still a much better bet to rely on the consensus. Vegan416 (talk) 17:04, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

So which experts are you relying on? And what BS did they detect that made NF an outlier? Selfstudier (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. What experts I'm relying on regarding what question? Vegan416 (talk) 17:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

This supposed "consensus" that NF peddles BS. Selfstudier (talk) 17:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Where did I say there is such a consensus?? Try reading my words carefully again. All I said is that it seems that NF is far from the consensus in his field of research (by which I mean in this context the IP conflict). Do you think that he is part of the consensus in this field? Vegan416 (talk) 17:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It is for you to prove your assertion or withdraw it. Selfstudier (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's put it this way. A scholar operating within the consensus in his field wouldn't need to publish anything in a site like the Unz Review (titled "An Alternative Media Selection"), as he would have much better venues open to him... Vegan416 (talk) 17:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem with Unz isn't that it's an alternative outlet, it's that it's a white supremacist, far-right, antisemitic outlet, and no self-respecting scholar worth their salt would write in it. Toa Nidhiki05 18:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

That's your opinion, not an answer to my question. As I said at the outset of this discussion, we have articles about his books full of reviews with praise for his work and his work is WP policy compliant but we are supposed instead to pay attention to some random voice on the web saying he peddles BS? I ask again, who is peddling BS? Selfstudier (talk) 18:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Just read the sentence again, this time carefully. Here it is: The problem with your argument is that unless you are yourself already an expert in the field, then reading the book wouldn't tell you if he is really done "careful, erudite scholarship" or if he is just good at peddling BS. It's not difficult to understand, but you still failed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier

Since it seems you failed to understand my words even with careful reading then let me explain it to you in other words. I didn't accuse anyone of peddling BS. I only said that it is not always possible for the layman to distinguish between those who do real valuable research and those who peddle shiny BS research. So reading a book of some author would not necessarily enable you to judge the quality of his work. Certainly not better than the consensus in his field. Vegan416 (talk) 18:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I understand your words all too well, thanks for the concern though. Selfstudier (talk) 19:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

You can literally type unz.com into your browser and get articles like:

• Democracy Is an Ideal Government for Jewish Influence which opens with a quote from famous anti-Semite and white supremacist Adolf Hitler [2]
• The Jews Want You to Watch Them Mass Murdering Little Kids written by Andrew Anglin[3]
• The Primacy of Anti-Semitism, which argues for a "rational anti-Semitism" because the vast majority of social problems in America, in Europe, and in the West, are primarily (though not solely) due to Jewish manipulation and corruption. [4]

These are all on the front page of Unz right now. There's no need to bother with what reliable sources describe Unz as when its writers are openly proud of being anti-Semitic. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

What is "the consensus in his field of research"? And what is Finkelstein's views that are far from that consensus? Levivich (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is valid for science. In any field of the humanities, it becomes far trickier, and this is particularly true of subjects with the potentiality for a high degree of political fallout. Nishidani (talk) 17:23, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

But the same principles apply nonetheless. Otherwise you will not be able to make a distinction between acceptable theories and narratives and fringe theories and narratives. Vegan416 (talk) 17:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

And there are too many comments here that veer from the issue, and show total unfamiliarity with Finkelstein's work and actual life, like 'It's actually not that complicated. It seems Finkelstein would gladly join hands with anyone who is anti-Israeli.' Those who have continued to follow his work all know that he is in bad odour with the BDS movement, and even friends otherwise critical of Israel like Tariq Ali. Nishidani (talk) 17:27, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Toa Nidhiki05

I agree of course with all you said. But my stress here was that the fact that he felt the need to publish there shows that he is far from the consensus. Vegan416 (talk) 18:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• Not for general statements, I would say that they're a reliable source but should be used with attribution. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I note that all of the nonsense about him and the Unz Review speaks in the present tense, i.e. he is paid by, publishes in. . .The first item here is reproduced from Mondoweiss, and such appears to be the case with several others of the 13 items. We don't know of the financial relationship and payments for material of his which, clearly, he does not object to being reproduced there. This 'rumour-mongering' is amply evidenced in many hostile sources. Same with David Irving. He was considered an extremely promising and original young historian and later became a nutter. But some of his early work is first rate, if one trusts TLS reviews, and Finkelstein doesn't abide by a world of taboos and clichés that skewer this or forbid that. He exercises his judgment whatever some 'consensus' might tend to state. People who see the word 'consensus' on something and therefore on the strength of that word, adopt the said view (without troubling themselves to famniliarize themselves with the topic ) remind me of Nietzsche's remark that subscribing to public opinion is tantamount to not having a personal opinion. You can always rely of Finkelstein to provide, when asked, meticulously documentation for whgatever position he takes, which is rather rare these days, even among general commentators and academics.Nishidani (talk) 20:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Depending on the rights signed over to Mondoweiss, the material could be syndicated entirely without his permission. It's impossible to tell without knowing the terms. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nishidani

1. Actually according to the site 30 items by him were published there in the years 2015-2017. And the question of payments is not relevant at all. Even if he wasn't paid at all it is still quite telling that he was ready to associate his name with this site. In fact it might be even worse. People might be excused for doing silly things out of financial necessity, but doing silly things for free is more troublesome.
2. Your last comment against the "consensus" and about asking NF for documentation to check his claims seem to to contradict the logic behind WP:UNDUE and WP:OR.

Vegan416 (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe he just doesn't care where his material is published so long as it is broadcast for the world's attention. Finkelstein has always been substance over style, so it has to be considered that he simply didn't even deign to consider the petty bickering that might one day arise over the choice of venue – because a venue is all a website is. Just as when one is having a serious discussion in a pub, one doesn't tend to give a rat's arse what the political opinions of the pub's owners or frequent customers are. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe. But would you say the same thing if a pro-Israeli researcher would have published in this site? Anyway did NF ever explain his connections with this site? BTW even more shocking to me than everything he said about Israel, is his comparison between the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists and Julius Streicher. Such a statement casts severe doubt about his professional judgment. https://aa.com.tr/en/politics/norman-finkelstein-charlie-hebdo-is-sadism-not-satire/82824

I think I'm finished with this discussion. Good night. Vegan416 (talk) 21:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It's perfectly reasonable to dislike Charlie Hebdo cartoons. They're unwitty garbage, frequently bigoted and would have been best left in the 20th century. If they hadn't become a target, few in the world would ever have heard of them. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323

You completely missed the point here. I didn't say that anyone has to like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. But my point is that comparing Charlie Hebdo to Der Sturmer shows that NF doesn't understand even the basics of his alleged field of expertise - the holocaust. There is absolutely no similarity between the papers, their methods and their intention. Der Sturmer was an antisemitic paper aimed mostly against the Jews with the intention of encouraging violent persecution of them and even genocide. Charlie Hebdo is a satirical paper that intends to make fun of everyone - Jews, Christians, Muslims, and people from the right and from the left. And it has absolutely no violent or genocidal intentions. It is unhinged to say they are the same. Vegan416 (talk) 09:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Iskandar323, the Unz Foundation (which runs the site) awarded Finklestein $108,000 in 2009 alone, and has also paid him since then. I highly doubt his work there is being published without permission. Toa Nidhiki05 22:01, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Ron Unz funds anti-Zionist activists – that's not a news flash, and his website provides a venue for them. Freedom of speech. If you have been watching the news over the last six months, you may have noticed that media outlets that stray from a staunchly pro-Israeli government position are few and far between. All the ADL attests to, as linked above, is that some items on the site occasionally have a whiff of antisemitic trope to them and have been used by antisemites. So even an ADL entry on the subject leaning into the smearing only offers a very modest critique of the site. Meh. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: Describing the Unz Review as a site that "occasionally have a whiff of antisemitic tropes" is at odds with reality. Go read The Primacy of Anti-Semitism which is currently on the front page of Unz. In it, the author says:

We can’t stop Jews or their sycophants from dishing out such labels, but we can undermine their effect by—embracing them. The global situation has now come to the point, I claim, where we can, we need, we must, take a resolutely anti-Jewish attitude, openly and explicitly. The time has come to be an open and courageous anti-Semite, and to take action consistent with this view, as I will explain.

He then proceeds to use several anti-Semitic tropes in describing Jews. If an article directly calling for anti-Semitism by name isn't an anti-Semitic article I don't know what is. Maybe Andrew Anglin's recent frontpage piece in Unz called The Jews Want You to Watch Them Mass Murdering Little Kids in which he denies the Holocaust and says bombing Gaza is as evil as being gay, because Jews are like homosexuals in that both are public exhibitionists (I'm paraphrasing, not agreeing). There are a lot of publications that are pro-Palestinian that aren't anti-Semitic. The Unz Review, however, openly brags about being both. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not really relevant what Unz is or isn't, because it's already deprecated and NF hasn't published there. There is content attributed to NF from 2015-2017, including three interviews and three series of articles syndicated from Byline. If NF was handed a large check for the privilege of the syndication, well ... ? He's a scholar, not a saint, and more online publication = more eyeballs on your ideas. But again, this is a dated, brief snapshot of a publishing period for some very specific content. It has little bearing on anything else, let alone NF's books published through university presses, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323

In September 2018 Ron Unz, the owner of the site, published in the Unz Review an article blaming Israel for perpetrating the 9/11 attack. The Unz Review is a hotbed of crazy antisemitic conspiracy theories. The fact that Finkelstein worked with this site casts serious doubts on the soundness of his professional judgment. Vegan416 (talk) 06:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

If somebody tries to cite that feel free to challenge it. It has nothing to do with if a noted expert in the field of the Arab-Israeli conflict is a reliable source however. nableezy - 10:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It absolutely does matter that he writes there. Credible academics don't write for outlets like this. Toa Nidhiki05 12:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Benny Morris wrote something on American Thinker, Efraim Karsh as well. Does that mean they can’t be cited? Of course not, this is just an intellectually bankrupt attempt at censoring views one doesn’t like. Finkelstein’s work meets all the requirements to be considered a reliable source, and all that has been proven in this ridiculous sized section is that a handful of Wikipedia editors reaaaallllyyyy don’t like that. Tough. nableezy - 12:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I would say writing for American Thinker would be a red flag as well (to my knowledge, they've written a fawning profile of white nationalist Jared Taylor, although I don't know if they've ever stooped into outright neo-Nazism like Unz has), and I'd appreciate you not stoop so low to personal attacks. We're required to assume good faith, and declaring anyone who disagrees with you "intellectually bankrupt" people attempting to "censor" people is just not productive at all. Toa Nidhiki05 14:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You aren’t the thought police here, you don’t get to decide that if some website makes a reliable source unusable for their association with it. There is nothing in WP:RS that backs up a thing you’re claiming. And criticizing your argument is not a personal attack. nableezy - 14:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not the thought police, but it's incredibly rude to say that everyone who disagrees with you is "intellectually bankrupt" and trying to "censor" people. We have civility policies here, and I'd advise you follow them. Toa Nidhiki05 15:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I didnt say that, I said the argument used here is that. this is just an intellectually bankrupt attempt is not you are intellectually bankrupt. Id advise you to not continue making arguments divorced from our policies. The argument advanced here, that Finkelstein published work at some BadPlace™ makes it so his work that has been published by well regarded university presses is somehow no longer reliable is intellectually bankrupt, it would, if it were done with any consistency at all, would rule out a plethora of highly reliable sources, including Finkelstein and Benny Morris. That argument has no basis in anything resembling our policies and guidelines, it is a basic association fallacy and it is only being used here to attempt to rule out a scholarly source. Aka censoring views you dont want included. nableezy - 16:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not trying to censor anyone, and I don't appreciate you claiming I am. This is ridiculous. Toa Nidhiki05 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I only see three interviews and some syndicated content. That's not actually writing there AFAICS. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

He was paid $108,000 by Unz and additional sums later on. He's absolutely a writer there, or absolutely was one. Can you at least acknowledge Chess's point that the site does't just "occasionally have a whiff of antisemitic tropes"? Toa Nidhiki05 14:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Chess doesn’t have a point, or at least not a relevant one. nableezy - 14:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

What's he written that's not an interview (not his writing) or syndicated content (originally published elsewhere)? The $108k figure you're flashing around is for an academic grant in 2013, not for writing in 2015-2017 (and the Free Beacon is also incidentally unreliable). Iskandar323 (talk) 15:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

There are 30 articles by NF published by Unz, each saying they are published with his permission, all dated from the mid-2010s. He didn't write for Unz, it was one of his publishers. (Just noting this in the interests of accuracy, as I was the first person to mention Unz on this page, not intending it to become a focus of discussion, not sure any of this discussion is at all relevant to the original question posted in this section.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

"Academic grant" by an organization that seeks to promote anti-Semitic falsehoods is a clear conflict of interest. Put it another way. The academic consensus in the medical field is that smoking causes cancer. Tobacco companies spent millions of dollars on academic grants to researchers through places like the Center for Indoor Air Research or the Tobacco Institute. Coincidentally, scientists affiliated with these institutes consistently published research that benefitted their sponsors and went against the academic consensus in their fields. Is it proper to cite them when they're following the tobacco industry playbook?

This is the same thing Norman Finkelstein has done:

1. The Unz Foundation's goal is to promote anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that go against the consensus of the academic community.
2. One of their goals in doing so is to promote the Palestinian cause.
3. Norman Finkelstein has taken money from the Unz Foundation for his research.
4. His research benefits the goals of Unz by promoting the Palestinian cause.
5. Like Unz, he promotes historical claims that are not in line with the consensus of academia.

I think the burden to prove that Finkelstein is unreliable isn't just that he takes money to promote Palestinian causes. That would be the association fallacy and there is nothing wrong with being pro-Palestinian. The burden is that that the organization is paying him to distort the historical record in support of the Palestinian cause. This is a high burden, but it's one that can be met.

Point 1 is easily proven by Unz posting anti-Semitic conspiracies about Jews doing 9/11. Point 2 can be seen by going on unz.com and looking at how their entire site is currently pro-Palestinian opinion pieces (that often use anti-Semitic tropes). [5] [6] [7] [https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/can-bibi-be-stopped/ Point 3 has been shown by Toa Nidhiki05 who quantified it as $108k. Point 4 is shown by the fact he publishes in Unz, thereby supporting them specifically and their goals. Most people here would also agree he takes a pro-Palestinian stance on the conflict (which isn't inherently wrong).

The only real dispute is over point 5. Has Unz influenced Norman Finkelstein to be less reliable? The answer is yes. In addition to what everyone else has said, since taking money from Unz, he praised Holocaust denier David Irving as a "very good historian" [8] and says students should be taught the controversy about the Holocaust. [9] This is against the scholarly consensus, to say the least. Going back to the start of this comment, it's similar to how the tobacco industry funds academics to invent a controversy over proven facts. Unz gave Finkelstein a bunch of money and now he spreads fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 18:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

1 to 4 has nothing to do with the discussion, 5 says "Like Unz", oh please. This just reads like I can't get him on anything else so I am going to get him because of an association with Unz. Irrelevant drivel. Selfstudier (talk) 18:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

One more time, not liking his views is emphatically not a criteria for his reliability, and you tried this guilt by association thing with Counterpunch as well. Finkelstein's work has been published in peer-reviewed journal articles and by respected university presses, he meets the requirements of WP:SCHOLARSHIP. No matter how many people say "but Unz", that remains the fact. There remains zero evidence that he has distort[ed] the historical record and you remarkably close to a BLP violation in writing that here. nableezy - 18:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Because my goodness, everything is broken and my attempt to fix it made everything worse, I'm so sorry.

• My view is he is very reliable for direct statements of fact about the I/P conflict, but higher-level analyses should be attributed, as they are stridently based in his very particular ideology and he does not make any efforts towards any notion of neutrality.

I haven't read or engaged much with his work about other topics, including the Holocaust.

I am flummoxed that people are seemingly freely casting aspersions about Finkelstein's reliability for statements of historical fact when there has been no evidence for why offered whatsoever. The closest we've gotten are the very appreciated notes by @FortunateSons and @Doug Weller, which I think are important to consider, but do not translate into outright skepticism of his reliability for the purpose stated above. Remsense诉 21:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I have no doubt we should use him for statements of fact, and indeed I think it would be a NPOV violation to deliberately exclude him. Doug Weller talk 07:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@RemsenseI don't understand what your view that he is "very reliable for direct statements of fact about the I/P conflict" is based on. Are you an expert in this field? The fact is that several leading experts in it have criticized his work very sharply.

Examples from here and here:

“No facts alleged by Finkelstein should be assumed to be really facts, no quotation in his book should be assumed to be accurate, without taking the time to carefully compare his claims with the sources he cites,” (Novick, Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Feb. 7, 2001)

"Norman Finkelstein is a notorious distorter of facts and of my work, not a serious or honest historian." (Benny Morris)

"it is brimming with the same indifference to historical facts, inner contradictions, strident politics and dubious contextualizations" (Omer Bartov)

Furthermore, NF academic credentials look unimpressive even from a dry statistical analysis. He didn't manage to get tenure in any university. Most of his books are published in non academic avenues. And in an academic career of 40+ years it seems that he published only 19 articles in peer reviewed journals (according to this Jstor search, if you try to replicate the search. please take care not to confuse him with another scholar with the exact same name who is an expert in Jewish literature and is responsible for most of the articles there) and of these only 5 in the last 20 years. Vegan416 (talk) 08:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You are repeating yourself ad infinitum. Have you ever read any book by Finkelstein, as apart from giving me at least the impression that the net is being scoured for dirt on him (this thread has taken on the lineaments of an attempt to conduct a trial on Finkelstein as a person rather than face the obvious fact that opn the I/P conflict he has distinguished himself by writing several forensic studies of the dissonance between the way information is packaged for one POV to damage the other POV, by measuring the disconnect between public rhetoric and the factual record?

That is all that interests us here, not vague guilt by association insinuations. That Unz picks up some of his interviews and republishes them or that he remarked on the dissonance between the way we viscerally react to the obscenity of the attack on Hebdo (and one still grieves to recall there the murder of Elsa Cayat) and how we would react were some inflamed Jews to make a similar lethal attack on a a paper routinely publishing antisemitic cartoons, is neither here nor there. He stated that while antisemitic cartoons are repulsive and universally condemned, cartoons that skewer by gross ethnic caricature a figure sacred to a billion Muslims evokes no such distaste. His point is WP:Systemic bias, and while I, for one,might perhaps strongly disagree, his analogy forced me to rethink a sensitive issue. That is one of the primary functions of controversialists. His scholarship uses other principles: few can find any factual misrepresentations in them. Thisa thread should be archived as unproductive, unfocused and all over the place without any prospect of conclusiveness. Nishidani (talk) 10:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I might have wanted to respond to you but I kind of got lost in the postmodernist jungle of your second sentence... Anyway I agree that this discussion leads nowhere, so I'm leaving it. Vegan416 (talk) 11:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The most concrete concerns provided in your links regard his aforementioned quotation of Benny Morris et al. I will reproduce an example here, apologies in advance for excessive quotation, but I think a complete-ish example of what we're talking about is needed here:

Passages by Benny Morris (1987) and Finkelstein (2001)

In The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem (1987)—which I think was the first book-length work on the subject, based on documents that were newly declassified at the time—while discussing the exodus of Palestinians from Haifa, Morris quotes a statement Ben-Gurion made in 1949. Here's both the footnote and the paragraph it's attached to: Mapam's Arab Department, probably in part on the basis of Krischer's report, in March analysed the Arab flight from Haifa. The department noted the Arabs' "fears ... for their future," both in the transitional pre-State period and under Jewish rule, and pointed out that it was mainly "Christians, professionals, officials" who were leaving. By 1 March, the mainly Christian districts of "Old Carmel" and Wadi Nisnas were "almost completely" empty. "The flight is less marked in the eastern parts of town, where the poorer classes, who are under the influence of the extremists, are concentrated," stated the Department. According to this analysis, the Christians were mainly worried about the transitional period, between the end of effective Mandate government and the start of effective Jewish government. They felt that they would then be "between the hammer and the anvil, the Arab terrorist operations and Jewish reactions." Arab public servants feared that their advancement would be blocked by their "lack of Hebrew." Arab railway workers worried about the fate of the railway under Jewish rule.[54] 54. LPA 48/23 aleph, protocol of the meeting of the Mapai Centre, statement by Ben-Gurion, 24 July 1948. Ben-Gurion's statement was revealing about his attitude to the Palestine Arabs, especially in the light of their behaviour and flight during the war. "Meanwhile," he said, "[a return] is out of the question until we sit together beside a [peace conference] table ... and they will respect us to the degree that we respect them and I doubt whether they deserve respect as we do. Because, nonetheless, we did not flee en masse. [And] so far no Arab Einstein has arisen and [they] have not created what we have built in this country and [they] have not fought as we are fighting ... We are dealing here with a collective murderer." Finkelstein in turn quotes this in his own footnote while discussing how he feels Morris's work dispels myths about the period while simultaneously creating new ones in his Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict (2001): once more both footnote and a paragraph of context: Morris repeatedly warns readers to treat with extreme circumspection the diary entries and public pronouncements of Ben-Gurion, yet uncritically reports certain of his conclusions. Morris notes that Ben-Gurion's testimony cannot be trusted because he was ‘driven ... by concern for his place in history and the image of himself and the image of the new state he wished to project for posterity' (Birth, p. 165; cf. Birth, pp. 136, 218, 292–3, 329–30, note 24, 335, note 40; 1948, p. 113). For example he ridicules Ben-Gurion's repeated assertion in 1948 and 1949 that 'Israel has never expelled a single Arab' as ‘a lie that even the most gullible journalists and UN officials found hard to swallow' (Tikkun, p. 82) Indeed, Morris singles out Ben-Gurion’s own 'histories' (the quotation marks are Morris's) of the Yishuv and Israel's first years as the 'purest expression' of the highly tendentious 'old' history (1948, p. 5).[12] Yet he cites without irony or qualification the 'major political conclusion' (Morris's phrase) Ben-Gurion drew from the Arab exodus from Haifa and elsewhere. Speaking to the People’s Council in early May 1948, Israel's first prime minister made the claim that no Jewish settlement to date had been abandoned in the war – in contrast with 'some hundred Arab settlements'. The Arabs, Ben-Gurion asserted, had abandoned 'cities ... with great ease, after the first defeat, even though no danger of destruction or massacre ... confronted them. Indeed, it was revealed with overwhelming clarity which people is bound with strong bonds to this land' (Birth, pp. 4–5) In fact, as we shall see presently, virtually every Arab settlement was abandoned precisely because of the 'danger of destruction or massacre'. What is more, at the exact moment that Ben-Gurion was sounding this 'major political conclusion', the Palmah was massacring some seventy Arab prisoners near Ein az Zeitun and several Arabs in the village itself (Birth, pp. 102, 321, note 133). 12. Another reason that Ben-Gurion’s testimony cannot be trusted is that he was so extreme a racist, indeed, comically so. Thus, he observed that Arabs were not entitled to the same respect accorded Jews because 'so far no Arab Einstein has arisen. ... We are dealing here with a collective murderer' (Birth, p. 331, note 54). Incidentally, Morris's study reveals that even the findings of Zionists renowned for their sympathy with the Palestinian Arabs must be handled with some caution. Thus a Mapam leader and secretary of the League for Arab—Jewish Rapprochement and Cooperation, Aharon Cohen, early on in the Arab exodus sought to minimize the responsibility of the Haganah by faulting the British for 'sow[ing] panic' among the Arabs – a claim for which there is apparently no supporting evidence (Birth, p. 317, note 73; cf. Birth, p. 319, note 93). Cohen’s contention in this regard is consistent with the central thesis of his major study, Israel and the Arab World, New York 1970, namely that the British were the villains of the Palestinian tragedy – a claim for which the evidence is equally scanty. Cohen and the Mapam became convinced by mid-1948 that the de facto Zionist leadership was engaged in a systematic expulsion policy; see pp. 74–5 above. Really hoping this doesn't amount to copyvio, it's the smallest usable chunk I could directly honestly point to, I can't quote any further spidering of cross-references—but I hope this is at least an illustrative core of what we're talking about here. I simply am not able to see this as a dishonest distortion of either Morris or Ben-Gurion, to the best of my ability. It is simply a biased analysis. I don't really see it as sloppy scholarship, either. If one did have an issue with this, I cannot really wrap my head around it would amounting to a persuasive piece of evidence toward wholly disqualifying Finkelstein as a RS for the scope I've mentioned. References

There are inherent limits to rejecting making your own judgments as to uphold WP:NPOV. I am not an expert in anything, never mind I/P, but I am fairly literate. That's what these discussions are for, we can and should pass most of the buck to reliable sources, but ultimately we have to operate the scales when weighing them. That's all I've done. Remsense诉 14:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense, as I told @Nishidani,

1. I was thinking of leaving this discussion. But since you took the trouble to respond to me at length I'll reciprocate and stay here. However, I 'm not sure I understand the purpose of the quotes you brought. I didn't mention his example in my comments, and I don't know where you got it from. I just brought the general opinions of these scholars (Morris, Novick, Bartov) on the quality of NF work, without mentioning any details. Starting to go over particular examples and checking them ourselves is original research. Are we sure we want to get into that?
2. However if nevertheless you want to go into specific examples then it does seem that in this case he misrepresented Morris at least. If I understand correctly what's going on (which is hard from this partial text) it seems NF claims that BM said that BG was racist whereas I don't see that BM said that. And here is an example of another error in NF work, this time quite egregious, that can be easily understood without being an expert. He claimed in one of his books that prior to 1967 only two Jewish American intellectuals supported Israel. This is patently false as is proven at length here. (The quotes from Einstein are particularly interesting to me since, coincidentally, I made a few edits on Einstein views on Zionism several weeks ago without any relation to NF. The fact that Einstein was pro-Zionist is very well known and it is bizarre that NF seems to have been unaware of it.

Vegan416 (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I just brought the general opinions of these scholars (Morris, Novick, Bartov) on the quality of NF work, without mentioning any details. Starting to go over particular examples and checking them ourselves is original research. Are we sure we want to get into that?

To be clear, no it is not: it's a basic discussion and interpretation of sources so we can figure out how to use them; as I've said, this is required in editing unless there's some way to fairly represent sources without interpreting them first that I'm not aware of. Original research would be if this went into an article itself as wikivoice analysis.

The "two Jewish American intellectuals" claim is a bit of a head-scratcher for me, I will freely admit. Remsense诉 15:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Camera is yet another crap source, proving nothing at all. Selfstudier (talk) 15:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

But as @Remsense said the discussion here is not bound by the regular rules of WP:OR and WP:RS. We are now on a mission of fact checking to determine the reliability of a source, not of writing an article. So do you suggest that when CAMERA quote NF as saying that there were only two Jewish American intellectuals who supported Israel before 1967 it is a fake quote and he didn't write this in his book?

Taking a break for a while, but I will return Vegan416 (talk) 15:59, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not what I'm saying: the above was an example cited in numerous places, including Camera. I'm basically just reproducing it here so we know a little directly about what the field is. Sorry for not being clear about that. Remsense诉 16:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

No hurry. Selfstudier (talk) 16:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323@Selfstudier

Since some people here seem to cast doubt about whether NF really said this thing about Jewish American intellectuals before 1967 I went to the primary source, and found this:

"Telling irony: Just about the only two public Jewish intellectuals who had forged a bond with Israel before June 1967 were Hannah Arendt and Noam Chomsky".

This is patently false, in addition to the names of Jewish American intellectuals who publicly supported Israel before 1967 that are mentioned in the CAMERA article (particularly Einstein) I can also add several more names just of the top of my head: Mordecai Kaplan, Abba Hillel Silver, Leo Strauss, Eli Wiesel, Abraham Joshua Heschel. Vegan416 (talk) 06:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

(To be totally clear, when I said it was a "headscratcher", I meant I do not understand what Finkelstein was getting out whatat when he said that, and he's obviously straightforwardly wrong.) Remsense诉 06:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking here about you. Vegan416 (talk) 06:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You are not going to convince anyone that NF is unreliable based on a couple of examples of details that you claim (without sources) are incorrect. Aside from the blatant cherrypicking of your approach (versus addressing NF's entire corpus of work), even pointing to a couple of errors would not make NF not reliable. Generally reliable means generally correct, not infallible. To attest NF as not GREL, you will need to prove a well-evidenced pattern of errance running through his entire body of scholarly work, or find a source that has already demonstrated the same. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Remsense, can you explain what these extracts are showing? I don't think we can determine general reliability ourselves via close analysis of extracts. Presumably, if you showed us some carefully chosen extracts of David Irving, we might think it looks reliable. This is why we avoid original research but go with the scholarly consensus. You've said that NF is a leader in his field, and the way to show this would be to show that a considerable body of reputable scholars in his field (the fields raised by the OP were the Holocaust and Israel/Palestine) consider him a good source and that few consider him dishonest or sloppy. I don't think you can do this based on close reading of his own work. Or is your intention to show he's better than Morris? But that's irrelevant here, as that's not the question at hand. Maybe I'm missing the point? BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

My point is this is the most persuasive critique of the reliability of Finkelstein's work by his peers for our purposes that I've read so far. I have reproduced it here so people can more easily begin analyzing what we are talking about. Remsense诉 19:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Remsense. In re-reading I realise your point was clearer than I thought. On reflection, my conclusion from your analysis would be that in a case like this, where two scholars disagree with each other, we should cite neither of them as a source for facts without attribution, but where they give the same factual information we could cite both without attribution. Using our own reading of the sources to let us assume that either Finkelstein trumps Morris or vice versa would be original research. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Per Levivich, Finkelstein is a scholar whose opinions will often be due weight to attribute in prose. His writing is significant and reliable for some types of fact, but in a subject area where even many foundational, major events are interpreted differently by academics of different perspectives. — Bilorv (talk) 14:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Scholars who cite Finkelstein

Let's look at what we're actually supposed to be looking at:

1. Nur Masalha 2012, pp. 79, 180-181, 192 (citing Finkelstein's 1991, 1995, and 2001 works)
2. Benny Morris 2004/1988, p. 64 (citing Finkelstein 1991)
3. Ilan Pappe 2017, pp. 78 ("As Norman Finkelstein has rightly noted, if you wanted to destroy what was left of the Jordanian army and retain your relationship with the one Arab country most loyal to Israel, a short operation in the West Bank, without occupying it, would have sufficed.") and 147 ("In his typical way Norman Finkelstein takes the official narrative of Israel as presented by one of its best articulators, Abba Eban, and demolishes it.")
4. Rosemary Sayigh 2013, p. 58 "Norman Finkelstein’s loss of his post at Hunter College and tenure denial at DePaul University is only the best known of numberless cases of dismissal, suspension, and delays in the appointment of junior faculty who have ventured into the forbidden realm of Palestinian studies."
5. Rashid Khalidi 2020, p. 252 ("The book was mercilessly eviscerated in reviews by Norman Finkelstein, Yehoshua Porath, and numerous other scholars, who all but called it a fraud.") and p. 290 "Two excellent books on the Gaza wars are Norman Finkelstein, Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom (Oakland: University of California Press, 2018)..."
6. Avi Shlaim 2009, p. 369 "Finkelstein's career illustrates the venom with which the debate about Israel is conducted in America. Finkelstein is one of the most hard-hitting critics of the official Zionist version of the Arab-Israeli conflict. But while he uncompromisingly rejects the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line, he fully accepts Israels legitimacy within its pre-1967 borders. His position is coherent and consistent. Finkelstein specialises in exposing spurious American-Jewish scholarship on the Arab-Israeli conflict."
7. Ahmad H. Sa'di 2007, p. 305 "Nonetheless the recent surge of anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism in the West following the events of 9/11 and the United States’ pursuant wars in Afghanistan and Iraq enabled Dershowitz to resurrect these myths, requiring Finkelstein (2005) to painstakingly debunk them yet again."
8. Ronit Lentin 2010, pp. 109-110 " Indeed Morris’s failure to ‘join the dots’ and see that the mass of documentation that he unearthed points to a policy of expulsion has been severely criticised (Pappe 1992; Finkelstein 1995) as has his failure to contextualise the events of 1948 within the overall framework of the Zionist plans for transfer (Masalha 2003) ... Indeed, right-wing Israeli intellectuals are increasingly comfortable with the idea that their country was built on ethnic cleansing (Gutwein 2002) with Morris expressing his disappointment that the Nakba was not more thorough (Shavit 2004; for a trenchant critique of Morris see Finkelstein 1995)."
9. Neve Gordon et al. 2020, pp. 245 and 259 (citing Finkelstein 2018)
10. Neil Caplan 2019, ch. 4 ("For important critiques of this work, see Finkelstein, N.G. (2001)."), ch. 12 ("In the US, nationwide campaigns were organized with the aim of destroying the professional reputations of, or denying tenure to, outspokenly pro‐Palestinian academics like Norman Finkelstein, Joseph Massad, and Nadia Abu El-Haj."), and elsewhere
11. Mark Tessler 2009, pp. 879-880 "For a forceful rebuttal to Morris's conclusion, which contends that the Israeli scholar's own documentation demonstrates the existence of a systematic Zionist plan to expel the Palestinians, see Norman Finkelstein, "Myths, Old and New," Journal of Palestine Studies 81 (Autumn 1991): 66—89. This issue of the Journal of Palestine Studies also contains another critique of Morris's study and a strong response by Morris. A further rejoinder by Finkelstein appears in volume 82 of the journal."
12. Bashir Bashir and Amos Goldberg 2018, p. 37 (citing The Holocaust Industry)
13. Helena Linholm Schulz 2003, p. 30 "Palestinian (and other) authors have challenged the main line of Morris’s argument, arguing that Zionist policy was before, during and after the war bent on ‘transfer’ or ‘expulsion’ of the Palestinian population from Palestine (Finkelstein et al. 1991; W.Khalidi 1992; Masalha 1992, 1997a, 2001)."
14. Jerome Slater 2020, p. 432 (citing Norman Finkelstein, “The Camp David II Negotiations,” Journal of Palestine Studies, Winter 2007.)
15. Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian 2019, pp. 110 and 115 (citing Finkelstein 2015 and 2018)
16. Marouf Hasian Jr. 2020, p. 2 (quoting Finkelstein 2007)
17. Marcy Jane Knopf-Newman 2011, pp. 21, 47, 79, 114 (extensive quotation from and discussion of The Holocaust Industry)

This wasn't methodical, just searching my personal collection of works for "Finkelstein". Also, my apologies to the community, I should have just done this first, instead of spending days arguing with people on the internet. Levivich (talk) 22:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that considerable effort. A pity its evidence will be talked past, but one must get used to that on wikipedia. Regards Nishidani (talk) 11:41, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

No need to foreshadow it if it's so inevitable. Yes, thank you Levivich. Remsense诉 11:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this valuable work Levivich. Just one observation: Almost all of these citations relate to I/P and not to the Holocaust, with two of them relating to his book The Holocaust Industry, neither of which I can actually read online so not sure how they use him, and the second of which (Knopf-Newman) is probably not a scholarly I realise that my first comment in this section didn't fully absorb the OP's question, which is whether his books can be used as sources for facts re I/P and the Holocaust. While I strongly hold to my view that his non-academic articles should be avoided (and haven't been convinced that he is either a "major political scientist" or the best historian in the history of history), there is no doubt that many of his published books on I/P and on the Holocaust "industry" are generally noteworthy (specifically Image and Reality, The Holocaust Industry, Beyond Chutzpah and Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom; I don't think his I Accuse, let alone his most recent book about wokeness, fall into this category). Given that he is not a Holocaust scholar, I cannot imagine why we would use his books as sources for facts about the Holocaust when there is so much good Holocaust scholarship available, but I think there are times when he might be usable as a source for facts on I/P or on the memorialisation of the Holocaust. However, these uses, many of which refer to his criticisms of or arguments with other writers, do not dispel my belief that we need caution, as pretty much all of his books are critiques of other writers, some of whom

(Peters, Dershowitz) are not reputable scholars but some of whom (Morris, Anita Shapira are; in these cases, I don't think we should cite him as a source for facts without attribution, but rather attribute and triangulate with the attributed views of those with whom he disagrees. In retrospect, the generalness of the question that opened this noticeboard section has meant it has been a extremely unhelpful discussion; it would have been much better to discuss specific examples of types of uses. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course when there are scholars that disagree with other scholars what we should be doing is attributing each view, so I don’t see anything either wrong or out of the ordinary with that, but that doesn’t require some sort of caution. That is just standard practice regardless. nableezy - 10:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes I guess that's right, but it is particularly important to bear in mind in his specific case because so much of his published work takes arguments with other scholars as its starting point, rather than e.g. taking particular research questions or archives as a starting point - his role, as Nishidani said earlier, is that of a "controversialist" - whereas there are plenty of sources (e.g. Abdel Monem Said Aly, Dov Waxman, Ian Black, Neil Caplan) that represent the scholarly consensus. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

That's because I made the list by searching my own little collection of Nakba works. I didn't search any Holocaust works. Levivich (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, my comment was not intended as criticism. Reviewing his reception, I cannot find any Holocaust scholars using him as a source on the Holocaust, whereas I can find quite a few I/P scholars using him as a source on I/P. The OP combined both topics in one question, and I think it's important to differentiate them in answering. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Bob, I appreciate the distinction you are making, but with a reservation. Finkelstein's early life was lived in the shadow of the powerful memories of two parents who both survived the Warsaw Ghetto and several concentration camps, making him an importantr secondary witness,an experience that most Holocaust scholars over the last few decades do not, fortunately, have (to bear). That he is fluent in the literature comes from the special relationship he had with the founder of Holocaust studies, Raul Hilberg, but, most importantly, an integral part of Holocaust studies is the way it is remembered and studied, as our own article on it underlines. And in this respect, Finkelstein is a leading scholar of its reception and the uses to which it has been put. Whether Holocaust scholars cite this or not is therefore immaterial, since they are focusing on the events 1933-1945 and he on the post-war (esp.post 1967) uses to which the Holocaust is put in the long aftermath. He is certainly a major source on the latter part, Holocaust historiography. I agree that given the thousands of scholarly works on the Holocaust as an historical period, there is no need for him to be cited for that reconstruction of events. If he is then a simple {{better source}} tag is all that is required.Nishidani (talk) 14:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I know what you meant, I didn't take it as criticism :-) I was just saying the only reason the list skews towards works on the Nakba is because I searched my computer folder "Nakba" that has sources I used for the Nakba article. So it's a very not-methodological search, like literally just the Nakba books I happen to have lying around. But you reminded me that I have a computer folder of Holocaust works as well, which I will search. First hit, BTW: Finkelstein is cited by Christopher Browning in Ordinary Men, p. 355: " The two most detailed and sustained critiques of Hitler's Willing Executioners are: Ruth Bettina Birn, “Revising the Holocaust,” Historical Journal 40/no. 1 (1997), 195–215; and Norman Finkelstein, “Daniel Goldhagen’s ‘Crazy’ Thesis: A Critique of Hitler’s Willing Executioners,” New Left Review 224 (1997): 39–87." I'll add more cites/quotes shortly. Levivich (talk) 16:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I searched my "Holocaust" folder for "Finkelstein":

1. Christopher Browning, Ordinary Men [10], p. 355: "The two most detailed and sustained critiques of Hitler’s Willing Executioners are: Ruth Bettina Birn, “Revising the Holocaust,” Historical Journal 40/no. 1 (1997), 195–215; and Norman Finkelstein, “Daniel Goldhagen’s ‘Crazy’ Thesis: A Critique of Hitler’s Willing Executioners,” New Left Review 224 (1997): 39–87"
2. Dan Michman 2019 (chapter 19 in Beyond "Ordinary Men", I don't have a page number): "However, precisely because of its growing centrality and the recognition of its “Jewishness” and its unique features, the memory of the Holocaust – denounced by Norman Finkelstein as a “Holocaust Industry” - became also heavily politicized and criticized, especially since the late 1990s. For extreme critics of Israel (and Zionism), Israel, and especially post-1967 Israel, “benefited” from the global centrality of the Holocaust (and according to Finkelstein Israel and its supporters even invented it in order to thwart criticism of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Ghaza), and thus its uniqueness had to be negated and the ways Zionism and Israel benefited from it had to be exposed and emphasized." and "The book [The Holocaust Industry] was translated into many languages and embraced by both extreme left-wing anti-Zionist circles and Eastern European right-wing anti-Semites. For a scholarly critique see Alvin H. Rosenfeld, “The Assault on Holocaust Memory,” American Jewish Year Book vol. 101 (New York: American Jewish Committee, 2001): 3-20."
3. Dan Stone (historian) 2013, p. 160: "First, there are attacks on ‘memory studies’ in general. Among these Norman Finkelstein’s polemic against the so-called ‘Holocaust industry’ is probably the best known: ‘Currently all the rage in the ivory tower, “memory” is surely the most impoverished concept to come down the academic pike in a long time’. Indeed, Finkelstein’s ‘Holocaust industry’ could be seen as a subset of a wider ‘memory industry’ (Klein’s term).", p. 163 "Manea’s criticisms, however, remind us that this is not an antiquarian enterprise or a fruitless postmodern game, as Finkelstein would have us believe, but that the study of memory may itself contribute to the creation of an ‘age of commemoration’ in which all memories other than the celebratory and efficacious are smothered or occulted." and p. 166 "This is a way of understanding memory that does not see it only as embedded in sites such as memorials; rather, Confino and Fritzsche point up the real weakness of Finkelstein’s claim, by showing how collective memories are created and passed on to some extent by design but also unconsciously, by virtue of, and in the process helping to define, existing social structures and networks."
4. Donald Bloxham 2009 p. 319: "As far as the strictly historical scholarship is concerned, the uniqueness ‘debate’ has lost most of its steam. Yet the idea of uniqueness, and thereby universal significance, is important to the establishment of various Holocaust memorial days and museum exhibitions across the Western world. If there is a ‘Holocaust industry’, these areas of didactics and commemoration are its workshops and uniqueness one of its most important raw materials. It is no accident that assailants of that ‘industry’ have directed much of their energy at the uniqueness claim.", citing (p. 381 n. 46) Finkelstein's The Holocaust Industry and Peter Novick's The Holocaust in American Life
5. Donald Niewyk and Francis Nicosia 2000 (Columbia Guide to the Holocaust), p. 89: "This sweeping monocausal explanation of perpetrator motivations has attracted little support from scholars, some of whose reactions may be sampled in Norman Finkelstein’s A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth." and pp. 359-360, discussing Finkelstein and Bettina Birn's "A Nation on Trial" book: "The authors dispute Daniel Goldhagen’s controversial argument that the Holocaust must be explained solely in terms of an antisemitism unique to Germany, one that embodied a national will to exterminate the Jews."
6. Adam Sutcliffe in Journal of Genocide Research 2022, "Several trenchant critiques of the sentimental and political instrumentalization of the Holocaust appeared around the turn of the millennium, but these arguments did not gain traction and were widely rejected as distastefully hard-hearted or cynical," citing The Holocaust Industry as one example, along with Peter Novick's The Holocaust in American Life and Tim Cole's Selling the Holocaust: From Auschwitz to Schindler, How History is Bought, Packaged and Sold [11]
7. Tim Cole 2004 (chapter 4 in The Historiography of the Holocaust edited by Dan Stone (historian)), p. 68: "Damning what he saw to be the emergence of a fully-fledged ‘Holocaust industry’ from the late 1960s onwards, Norman Finkelstein mocked Steven Katz’s thesis of the uniqueness of the Holocaust: ‘To avoid any confusion, Katz elucidates that he uses the term phenomenologically “in a non-Husserlian, non-Shutzean, non-Schlerian, non-Heideggerian, non-Merleau-Pontyan sense.” Translation: The Katz enterprise is phenomenal non-sense.’" and cited elsewhere in the chapter
8. Zoë Waxman 2004, p. 487 (another chapter in the same Dan Stone book): "Against the prevalent idea that survivors have only recently come forward to tell their stories out of a new, flourishing culture of witnessing (a view espoused by Norman Finkelstein in his polemical attack on the so-called ‘Holocaust industry’), witnesses were aware of the historical importance of their experiences as they unfolded."
9. Stanislav Kolář in Geneology (disclosure: it's an MDPI journal) 2019, p. 8: "My Holocaust is Reich’s response to the abuse of Holocaust commemoration, to what Norman G. Finkelstein (2000) has termed the Holocaust industry, exploiting the memory of Jewish suffering for political and financial gain."
10. Judith Hughes 2022, p. 131 lists The Holocaust Industry as a general reference in the bibliography
11. Nawal Musleh-Motut 2023, p. 4 (passing mention of 2009 post on Finkelstein's website)

Again, this is a very non-methodical search of books that I just happened to have on my computer. But for me, this kind of settles it: at the point at which you're being cited by the likes of Brown, Stone, Bloxham, Michman, Nicosia, or being mentioned in the same sentence as Birn or Novick... this is kind of a "who's who" of Holocaust scholars, if they take Finkelstein seriously enough as a scholar to cite his works alongside other serious scholars, even if they disagree with his conclusions, it's demonstrable proof that Finkelstein is not fringe or anything like that, he's "in the club," a bona fide scholar cited by other bona fide scholars. There is no reason not to consider his works RS. And I don't care if he is published by Unz, heck he could be published by Stormfront, he could be the Grand Wizard of the KKK, it doesn't matter: he's clearly widely cited, including by other preeminent scholars in the field of Holocaust Studies, and in the field of I/P. Levivich (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

And the fact that this same Novick, whom you praise so much here, described Finkelstein scholarly work on the holocaust as "trash" and "a twenty-first century updating of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and “As concerns particular assertions made by Finkelstein . . . the appropriate response is not (exhilarating) ‘debate’ but (tedious) examination of his footnotes. Such an examination reveals that many of those assertions are pure invention. . . . No facts alleged by Finkelstein should be assumed to be really facts, no quotation in his book should be assumed to be accurate, without taking the time to carefully compare his claims with the sources he cites" doesn't bother you at all? True, it is common for academics to have personal rows, but it's not so common for one to describe the other's work is such sharps terms. Vegan416 (talk) 19:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You are sidestepping Levivich’s serious evidence and much else as you persist in scouring mediocre sources for ‘dirt’ on Finkelstein. Did you read all of the article (the second above) by Isi Leibler (I grew up enjoying his once informed opinions in Australia)? It is a defense of the superiority of Alan Dershowitz’s book, which has no standing in scholarship, over Finkelstein’s work, part of which demolished D’s book’s pretensions to be original research. But what you missed is the following admission by Leibler (who has no grasp of the scholarship by the way)

Finkelstein's ravings are boosted, among others, by a long parade of academics of Jewish origin praising his lies and describing his distortions as scholarship.

Leibler calls the ‘long parade of Jewish academics in Israel and beyond who praise Finkelstein’s work as ‘renegades’, a particularly odious label since there is a mitzvah which dictates death to those who renege Israel (the slip/faux pas/gaffe is typical of such cheap polemics). In other words, he admits the record shows Finkelstein has many scholarly admirers, but they are traitors to their people. You cherrypick for the smear word 'trash' without even troubling yourself to carefully evaluate the abysmal quality of the source you adduce. The careless, and ineptness is embarrassing. And you are bludgeoning the page in repeating yourself. Drop it.Nishidani (talk) 20:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

That seems highly irrelevant. While it's clear that Novick and Finkelstein have differences of opinion, it's not our place to adjudicate who of the two is right merely how have they been received by the field. The answer is that they've been received very similarly. Simonm223 (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It's extremely common for scholars to describe other scholars' work in such sharps terms, and I think nowhere is it as common as it is in the fields of Holocaust Studies and Israel/Palestine Studies. Levivich (talk) 19:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Was any of the others holocaust scholars that you mentioned above criticized in such terms? Do you have an example? Vegan416 (talk) 19:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Listen - I read a lot of Philosophy works and a lot of critics of Foucault call him everything under the sun from the killer of truth, the enemy of reason or even "ontologically evil." When you read enough of this sort of stuff it's kind of par for the course. Does that mean I want to trawl through the criticism of a bunch of holocaust scholars just to appease your curiosity? Absolutely not. It's irrelevant and immaterial. In the extreme. Simonm223 (talk) 19:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Can't say that I disagree with this criticism of Foucault's work. Despite the fact that he was pro-Israeli :-) In any case I give up on this discussion on NF. He is not important enough for me to be accused of "bludgeoning" over him. Vegan416 (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You know what I noticed is that all the quotes of Peter Novick calling Norman Finkelstein's work "trash" seem to come from second-hand sources, e.g. none from Novick himself, and I can't seem to find where Novick supposedly said or wrote this. Same goes for that inclusion of this material in the Wikipedia article about Norman Finkelstein; I wonder if it's true.

Anyway, Novick himself is no stranger to being called names. His NYT obit notes people called him a "self-hating Jew" for his work on the Holocaust, and quotes a review that calls his work "a tough-minded work, sharp, brusque, and sometimes nearly Swiftian in its acerbities."

Same in I/P. That 2004 Benny Morris book I cited above, in that same book, p. 8, this is what he says about Efraim Karsh: "his criticisms are of such brazen mendacity and distortion – regarding what I wrote and what is in the documentation – that they are not worthy of detailed treatment."

Meanwhile, here is what Nur Masalha 2012, which I also cited above, says on p. 157 about Benny Morris: "his illiberal conclusions and subsequent support for the racist, murderous ethnic cleansing of Palestine.", p. 170, "Morris began his scholarly career by arguing for ‘shared responsibility’ for the Palestinians over their catastrophe; he ended up with the claim that the Palestinians had brought the Nakba on themselves. He became the symbol of a ‘new history’ in collusion with ethnic cleansing, neo-colonialism and war crimes in Palestine, past, present and future.", and on p. 175 here's what Masalha says about the rest of the New Historians: "Almost inevitably, since the late 1980s the Israeli ‘new historians’ in general and Benny Morris in particular have come to be seen in the West as the ‘ultimate authority’ on 1948, the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem and the Nakba. The ‘new historians’ fitted the bill. They were all Western-educated (with connections to Oxford and Cambridge universities), male, white, young, Ashkenazi descendants of the ancient Hebrews, highly professional and scientifically minded and authoritative; their work is grounded in official documents and state archives, and so they could now represent everyone, especially those indigenous Palestinians located at the bottom of the pile. Exaggerating the impact of ‘new history’, and trumpeting their newly found fame, the ‘new historians’ even sought to patronise the ‘annoyed’ and ‘jealous’ Palestinian historians."

Sharp words are par for the course in these topic areas. Levivich (talk) 20:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I already announced leaving this debate. But since you asked about the ultimate source for Novick's quotes on Finkelstein here it is:

Peter Novick, “Offene Fenster und Tueren. Ueber Norman Finkelsteins Kreuzzug”(Open Windows and Doors. About Norman Finkelstein’s Crusade.) in Petra Steinberger, ed., Die Finkelstein-Debatte [The Finkelstein Debate] (München: Piper Verlag, 2001), p. 159 Vegan416 (talk) 20:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

There are different sorts of sharp words here.

Masalha is sharply critical of Morris' interpretations and conclusions but crucially does not say that Morris is unreliable for facts, whereas Karsh and Finkelstein accuse Morris of lying. Morris responds to Masalha much more respectfully than he does to Finkelstein or Karsh, seeing Masalha as wrong in his interpretations but Finkelstein as actively dishonest about the facts: outworn preconceptions and prejudices prevail. These underlie -and tarnish- Finkelstein's and Masalha's articles. In the case of Finkelstein, the critique is accompanied and reinforced by innuendo and distortion. Morris and Masalha are both biased scholars working in a controversial area, who we could cite without attribution as a source for facts unless their claim has been specifically disputed. Same with Novick: he was attacked by activists and journalists, but not accused of distortion or dishonesty by mainstream scholars.

To me, Karsh is the mirror of Finkelstein. Despite his academic affiliation and publication by academic presses, I don't think that we should ever cite Karsh as a source for facts without attribution, as his views are extremely controversial (like Finkelstein, we could use Nishidani's word "controversialist" for him) -- although like Finkelstein the number of people cite him, often as an example of an extremely partisan position on this controversial area, so his opinions might be noteworthy.

BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Levivich for the thorough work again. I think this shows that he is very much noteworthy in debates about Holocaust memory but that he is viewed as controversial. Few if any of these are citing him as a source for facts; most are citing him as an example of the polemical intensity of debates at the turn of the century. I keep having to remind myself of the question the OP (Davest3r08) posted: are his books reliable for "verifying general statements in [I/P and Holocaust] related articles due to their contentious and controversial nature"? I'm not sure what was meant by "general statements" but if it means "can we cite him without attribution for facts about the Holocaust?", then I don't think these scholarly citations enable us to do that. However, I think the case that his opinion is noteworthy in articles about the history of the post-67 reception/memory of the Holocaust is now pretty definitively made. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The OP original request was "Norman Finklestein is a political scientist and activist. He writes on the Holocaust and the Israeli-Arab conflict. He has written a few books on the latter (my italics), and I wanted to know if they were reliable for verifying general statements in related articles due to their contentious and controversial nature." This question is about the IA conflict specifically and not the Holocaust. Of course, that he is also cited by scholars for Holocaust material merely adds to his standing in general. Selfstudier (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thx Selfstudier. I don't think I got the significance of "on the latter" and I seem to have introduced a major distraction. Sorry. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Allkpop

What is the reliability of Allkpop for K-pop-related articles?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Allkpop is the English-language K-pop and celebrity gossip site and fan blog owned by 6Theory Media, which also owns Tokyohive. The site contains extensive Korean culture-related news coverage and rumours that are aimed at non-Korean audiences, this does not itself as a generally reliable source and also claims to be cited by major news organizations. They also made occasional interviews and special reports, which counts as first-hand journalism. It also licensed to stream MAMA Awards. I consider the site itself was generally unreliable for K-pop articles.

allkpop.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com sjh (talk) 04:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

You should provide more context but here's all the previous discussions that are about allkpop: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]

It's also listed under WP:WikiProject_Korea/Reliable_sources#UR as being unreliable although that's just a Wikiproject. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Traumnovelle: Some articles like this are poor for using as a source. Although this site publishes rumours and conjecture in addition to accurately reported facts, however, some information on this site may or may not be true and Allkpop makes no warranty as to the validity of the claims. sjh (talk) 07:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

If the site itself doesn't consider itself reliable I fail to see how it can be considered reliable for Wikipedia. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:17, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

“Makes no warranty as to validity” is just a standard legalese disclaimer; websites of many RS have similar disclaimers. Judge reliability based on substance. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Survey (Allkpop)

Let's see... this article describes Allkpop as the "latest celebrity gossips and news" and the website claims to be "the premier source for all the latest K-pop celebrity gossip and news". This website is generally unreliable (option 3), and for the love of God, please do not use this in a BLP. That's a disaster waiting to happen. Davest3r08 >:) ^(talk) 12:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Davest3r08: That's fine if other reliable sources like this can be used in a BLP too. sjh (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I Agree with @Davest3r08Davest3r08 Slacker13 (talk) 01:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Option 3: Super Unreliable. WikiProject Korea deems it unreliable and it is a celebrity gossip site. Definitely should not be used in BLPs, like ever. Brachy08 _(Talk) 01:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Option 3 - generally unreliable:. Per various arguments provided above. Shadowwarrior8 Shadowwarrior8 21:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Option 3: generally unreliable. A good amount of their articles are sourced from unreliable Korean sites like Insight or Wikitree (relevant pages in Korean here and here respectively; though they're from the user-generated wiki NamuWiki, the articles are good for getting a feel on how the sites are viewed), and the other half is gossip pulled from biased, even less reliable K-netizen translation sites. Their third hottest article at the time of writing is this gossipy, substanceless mess. I'm having a hard time finding any coverage up to par with actual news outlets such as Korea Herald - just gossip, gossip, and more gossip. Wuju Daisuki (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Allkpop)

Hi SarahJH07, I've removed "RfC:" from the section heading to prevent confusion since this discussion was not set up as a formal request for comment, which would solicit input from editors through the feedback request service. If you would like to make this discussion a request for comment, please apply the {{rfc}} template to this discussion according to the instructions at WP:RFCST and add "RfC:" back to the section heading. Thanks. — Newslinger talk 21:58, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Entertainment coverage of the New York Post (including Decider and Page Six)

What is the reliability of entertainment coverage, including reviews, from the New York Post (nypost.com  ) and its sub-publications Decider (decider.com  ) and Page Six (pagesix.com  )?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

— Newslinger talk 21:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Added Page Six to RfC question per Endwise's suggestion in the discussion section. In your response, please clearly specify the publication and/or sub-publications that your evaluation refers to, and the types of coverage (e.g. film reviews, celebrity news) that you are evaluating. — Newslinger talk 03:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Survey (Entertainment coverage of the New York Post)

• Option 3 or Option 4. There is no need to make a carveout for the New York Post. The Post's entertainment coverage is part of it being a gossip tabloid at absolute best. This is not a paper of quality or renown. Given that so much of its entertainment coverage is about living persons, and the previous RFC noted the Post's fondness for fabrication, allowing any such carveout is likely to be a WP:BLP danger. There's a consistent flow of fresh BLP-violating trash from the Post, especially from Page Six but also from the rest of the paper/site. I would suggest the safest thing is to deprecate its entertainment coverage entirely. At the least, we must note that the New York Post must not be used for any statement concerning living persons - David Gerard (talk) 22:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
• I don't know enough to speak on the Post, but for Decider, I'd say option 2. Some of their articles are clickbaity gossip and tend to over-dramatize stories (for instance, this), but those tend to fall under WP:TABLOID. On the other hand, they have some longer-form articles/interviews (example 1, example 2) and reviews (example) that seem perfectly fine and where I have no reason to suspect their reliability. Given that the least reliable articles seem to come from sources that shouldn't be used in any case, I see no reason to extend the "generally unreliable" moniker to all Decider articles. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3. I've found the NY Post entertainment coverage to be mostly gossipy and i'd avoid it... In fact really all i would use the Post for is sports coverage, which is mostly ok as they employ some good sports writers.. everything else there I would avoid. Spanneraol (talk) 00:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Question - what does "entertainment" mean in this RFC? Celebrity gossip or film reviews?  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah... +1. For example this article from NYPost is a pretty standard concert review (not unlike other such reviews they post), and I'd have no issues with someone using it on Pixies (band). The celeb gossip crap posted on NYPost, Decider, and Pagesix.com is a different beast however and something I'd probably argue is generally unreliable. Endwise (talk) 01:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  I assumed we were talking about entertainment news reporting rather than reviews. Spanneraol (talk) 02:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  This RfC examines all entertainment coverage (including the entire scope of Decider) from these publications, which encompasses both film reviews and celebrity news. If you consider one of these publications to be more reliable for some topics than others, please say so. Please be detailed and specific in your responses, so the RfC closer can carefully evaluate the responses and give a comprehensive closing statement. — Newslinger talk 03:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2, weakly – The Post is tabloid-y but entertainment as a whole has elements of tabloid-y content. For instance, if I was working on an article about internet slang such as Looksmaxxing, I wouldn't have much of an issue using The Post for some cultural reception info. Also concurring with Endwise, I wouldn't have an issue with it for music or a film review. Celeb gossip shouldn't really be used from any tabloid anyway? I don't know much to speak on the other ones. TLA^tlak 03:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 on Decider and Page Six. I can't find many (or any significant) examples of RS referencing its reporting based on a cursory Google News search for terms like "Decider reported" or "according to Decider", etc. That said, I also can't find any instances of its reporting being specifically identified as inaccurate or unreliable. Given that, I think Option 3 is the best bet. Chetsford (talk) 03:53, 17 March 2024 (UTC); edited

03:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2. I understand why the New York Post can be problematic, but film/music/television/etc reviews are fine. I guess we have to explicitly allow that carve out so overzealous editors don't go around removing them. Jessintime (talk) 04:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. Frankly I don't see the reason why reviews from well known film critics (like the Kyle Smith (critic) listed above) or interviews that asks the right questions cannot be used as a primary source just because they are posted onto an unreliable platform. S5A-0043^Talk 11:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. I'm the person who started the Decider question, as pointed out by the discussion below. Most of the entertainment articles from the sub-publications seem to be from established journalists so I do not have a problem with those, but if contentious claims are made, maybe using that source is not the best. It's kind of like the Screen Rant situation. Spinixster (chat!) 13:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Bad RfC. Because the general matter is already under discussion in the unclosed previous post, because a pro-censorship result on this guideline page is not policy and cannot override WP:NOTCENSORED, because it's not clear what's "entertainment" (to me sports is entertainment), because context matters; because blanket bans bad. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2 Applies to Decider only. CapnZapp (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 They may not be reliable for facts but reviews are opinions. It's a case-by-case basis as to whether the review deserves inclusion such as the author and their credentials. Traumnovelle (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 5: No formal determination is necessary. Sometimes the paper has smart stuff in it, and sometimes it has dumb stuff in it. If people are incapable of understanding this, they shouldn't be writing encyclopedia articles. Moreover, there's no amount of bureaucratic source classification that's going to make them capable of doing so. jp×g🗯️ 19:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2: Only for entertainment proposes. Nothing more. BattleshipMan (talk) 20:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 I'd continue to steer far away from the Post for general news, especially politics and CTOPs; however, for entertainment news/reviews, the points raised by Jessintime and Traumnovelle stand. The Kip 06:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 (entertainment to be construed broadly and include sport and celebrity) their political issues are well known, but the points above, inclusion with attribution may be valid in cases where they aren’t highly controversial and the reviewer is acceptable. FortunateSons (talk) 09:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 I am not a fan of carveouts like this for sources that we already consider generally unreliable. The editorial standards for entertainment news are highly unlikely to be better than for any other topic, so what we're really saying here is that it matters less for the topic of entertainment than for other topics, and I don't really buy that. I also notice a lot of the "option 2" votes above really seem to be about reviews specifically, which are already allowed (with attribution) because they're opinion and not factual. I'd therefore say most of the option two arguments here fall under the "generally" in "Generally unreliable".----Licks-rocks (talk) 14:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 - As per others, and to allow us to exercise judgement from time to time while avoiding automated or semi-automated censorship.  Mr.choppers | ✎  15:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Reviews are inherently opinions even if they can be considered expert opinion. I don't see any reason why we would avoid using the NYP reviews but might use reviews from many other sources. For example, why refuse a NYP movie review but accept one from say a Huston news paper? BTW, this is also one of the flaws with our RSP blanket RfCs. They are often way too broad when we should be looking at claims on a case by case basis. Springee (talk) 21:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3. Of course exceptions can exist, just like for any unreliable source, but it's necessary to actually present and articulate those exceptions on a case-by-case basis; the default is unreliable. WP:RSOPINION content still requires some degree of reliability - we need to be confident that the source will not publish opinions that make egregiously incorrect statements, that they at least tend towards hiring people who know what they're talking about, and so on. In-text attribution alone is not a substitute for this reliability. And the Post doesn't reach that threshold - publication there, whether as a review or an opinion or whatever, confers no reliability. It can still be cited occasionally, but only in the same way that Reddit posts or YouTube videos or blogs or personal websites can be cited - publication there means nothing because they lack rigorous editorial controls and the reputation that would give their masthead meaning. And like those, that means the default can only be "unreliable." --Aquillion (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I think "entertainment" is too broad a category. There's a massive difference between "review of a film/TV show" and "tabloid coverage of celebrities", both of which could fall under "entertainment". I wouldn't be particularly bothered if the NYPost's reviews were found to be usable, but I don't think this RfC should be taken as an endorsement of using tabloid gossip sources about celebrities. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 - The default is unreliable unless there is some reason to think otherwise. Everyone has an opinion. I certainly have never heard of the NYP as a goto source for entertainment (other than their often humorous views on politics and economics). O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I think this RfC as worded is maybe unnecessary. It seems clear the community thinks GUNREL sources like NYPost can still be usable (depending on context) for something like film/music reviews, but probably we should've already known that. I think a more useful consensus to come to for the actual issue at hand would've been something like "it is not appropriate for David Gerard to blanket delete all uses of NYPost without regard to the context, and he should stop". Endwise (talk) 06:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 Journalism is, by its nature, not highly reliable and so each case needs to be judged on its merits. Looking at a sample used in the article Entertainment Weekly, I'm not seeing any particular cause for concern. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Chetsford and Aquillion, basically. Entertainment news coverage must be evaluated by our standards for factual reporting, including WP:BLP, and there, the Post doesn't really have a leg to stand on. For reviews, as opposed to news, the default presumption should be that they are simply unnecessary. The case-by-case burden is on those who wish to include them. WP:RSOPINION content still requires some degree of reliability - we need to be confident that the source will not publish opinions that make egregiously incorrect statements, that they at least tend towards hiring people who know what they're talking about, and so on, as Aquillion argues. In broad strokes, opinions published in venues whose factual reporting is generally unreliable aren't opinions that we need to cover. If I'm a subject-matter expert in one area, my personal blog might be an acceptable source for exceedingly uncontroversial statements in that area, but there would still be no reason to cite my blog post reviewing a movie I happened to see. My blog would be "generally unreliable" outside very narrow limits; using it as a source for unrelated opinions would be unencyclopedic. XOR'easter (talk) 16:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 for reviews, no change for "entertainment news", Page Six or Decider. When deciding whether to include a review, the core question is whether the reviewer is someone who's opinion carries weight. If a noteworthy critic like Richard Roeper took a contract writing film reviews published in the NY Post, the reliability and importance of his review isn't altered by the venue it is posted in. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 or Option 2, since no examples of falsehoods have been provided by the editors who voted for 3/4, and due to the presence of well-known critics, per u:S5A-0043. Alaexis_¿question? 22:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. Its reviews are fine, and they tend to carry some weight among critics (particularly so for the New York City musical/theatre arts scene). Additional considerations apply because there are some broader problems when using for contentious information on BLPs, but I think that the culture and entertainment reviews are fine. The notion that, as one editor puts above the New York Post must not be used for any statement concerning living persons is a bit overkill when applied to mundane information (who the lead actors are in a Broadway play, etc.), and I would stress that such language is a gross oversimplification of the source's utility in this scope. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC
• Option 3 I would say to generally just avoid unreliable sources for everything, including reviews. It's not worth the time and effort to look at every article and decide whether it is acceptable. InfiniteNexus (talk) 06:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)*
• Option 2, Most sources need additional considerations. The sources/articles should be looked at upon their own merits. Grahaml35 (talk) 15:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2 for Decider. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
• Conditional Option 2, otherwise Option 3 - I'm basically going to copy what I wrote when a similar thread came up about NYPost's sports coverage last April: Support a carve-out for entertainment, which is sufficiently tame/reliable from what I've seen. Two exceptions which would need to be included in the RSP entry for me to support option 2: (1) nothing from the prurient/scandalous side of the Post (e.g. objectifying female actors), and (2) nothing with any overlap with politics (diversity/representation in Hollywood, the Times Up movement, reviews of movies that deal with political issues, etc.). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 - If this was about the NY Post sports section it should be option 1. But while there are tabloid elements to the Post's entertainment section, there is no evidence that it is generally unreliable. There is certainly no reason a review in the Post should be considered unreliable. Rlendog (talk) 14:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 for Decider per RunningTiger123. Some of its interviews or reviews are usable, but it's not the highest-quality source so avoidance of highly sensitive or exceptional BLP claims would be wise. — Bilorv (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Entertainment coverage of the New York Post)

The New York Post has been discussed nine times on this noticeboard, including a 2020 RfC which concluded that the source was "Generally unreliable for factual reporting especially with regard to politics, particularly NYC politics with 2 qualifications: a/that it was more reliable in the period before it changed ownership in 1976, and that it is particularly unreliable for coverage involving the NYC police". Discussion at #Reviews from unreliable sources indicates that there is an ongoing disagreement over the reliability of the New York Post's entertainment reviews, and the currently unanswered question at #Using Decider / Decider.com for interviews and reviews indicates that the reliability of Decider (a publication of the New York Post) is an open question. — Newslinger talk 21:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music. — Newslinger talk 22:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Radio. — Newslinger talk 22:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

NYP I don't read and so have no opinion. I sometimes read Decider's "stream it or skip it" and haven't gotten any feeling their reviews are noticeably inferior to most other entertainment venues... What would be the justification for changing Decider's entertainment coverage to "generally unreliable" or "deprecated"? I am asking because this discussion needs to clearly summarize any reasons put forward to blacklist this site (and "please read several miles of previous discussion, it's all up there" doesn't cut it). CapnZapp (talk) 23:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any proposal to blacklist Decider. Since Decider is operated by the New York Post, which was found to be generally unreliable for factual reporting in the 2020 RfC, one of the goals of the current RfC is to determine whether Decider should be considered likewise or otherwise. — Newslinger talk 23:36, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I think this should also cover pagesix.com, a celebrity gossip site ran by NYPost which does entertainment reviews as well. Endwise (talk) 01:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Checking the page, it seems like the only (if not primary writer) right now is Nicholas Hautman, and per his about page, He joined the New York Post in 2021 after nearly six years at Us Weekly, where he started his career. He graduated from Hofstra University on Long Island in 2016 with a bachelor's degree in journalism. Spinixster (chat!) 01:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that is a reasonable suggestion, since Page Six is already listed as a sub-publication of the New York Post at WP:PAGESIX. I've added Page Six to the RfC. Thanks. — Newslinger talk 03:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

 Do not pre-empt any conclusions Please don't act as if your preference has already achieved consensus, User:David Gerard, as you did here. Your edit summary NYP is generally unreliable, prima facie WP:UNDUE is inaccurate. The current (pre-discussion) consensus is that NYP is generally unreliable "for factual reporting especially with regard to politics", not that it is generally unreliable in every aspect. CapnZapp (talk) 23:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

"generally" means "generally", not "not generally" - David Gerard (talk) 10:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

No it does not. Generally means generally only when there are no qualifiers. Otherwise those be pointless to add. Do not ignore the qualifiers. This entire RfC relies on the fact that you are wrong. CapnZapp (talk) 18:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with some users, David Gerard. You have been removing reviews on film article that come from the New York Post without any consideration of the consequences behind that and you did so by your own biased views of the reliability of the sourcing of New York Post. BattleshipMan (talk) 20:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

His editing history is especially egregious since he participated in this very discussion and still went ahead and made his edits, as if this wasn't still an open RfC that could possibly rule against his wishes. If and when it does, I hope and trust he will self-revert all his premature edits. CapnZapp (talk) 12:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I can understand David Gerard's point of view based on the phrasing of the 2020 RfC's closing summary. For example, the sentence "Gambling is generally a poor financial decision, especially when the gambler is in debt" states two things: that gambling is generally a poor financial decision, and that gambling is generally an even worse financial decision for gamblers who are in debt. Likewise, "Generally unreliable for factual reporting especially with regard to politics" means that the New York Post is generally unreliable for factual reporting, and that it is generally unreliable to an even greater extent for political reporting. This RfC seeks to clarify whether the New York Post's entertainment coverage should be considered differently. — Newslinger talk 21:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

"generally unreliable for factual reporting" means just that. It does not mean "generally unreliable" full stop. Otherwise those three words "for factual reporting" would not have been added. There is no uncertainty about what the earlier RfC meant. It specifically spelled out "factual reporting" meaning that the "generally unreliable" rating only applies to that. Other stuff - like entertainment - was specifically excluded from the decision. David Gerard didn't read it that way but that doesn't mean his reading is valid. Just to be crystal clear: This RfC does not seek to "clarify" this as if the earlier RfC was unclear. It can, however, seek clarification since the earlier RfC did not apply to entertainment articles. I trust and hope you and I agree on this, Newslinger. Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 12:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Factual reporting does not exclude entertainment reporting. For example, Decider exclusively focuses on entertainment reporting, yet still publishes plenty of non-review articles that only make factual claims. The New York Post's and Decider's reviews and recommendations also contain factual claims, as most reviews do. The 2020 RfC's closing summary said that the New York Post is "Generally unreliable for factual reporting", and it did not say that the New York Post was any more reliable for entertainment reporting than it was for most topics, so the 2020 RfC was clear that the New York Post was considered generally unreliable for entertainment reporting as well. The current RfC offers editors an opportunity to re-evaluate the reliability of the New York Post's entertainment coverage. — Newslinger talk 13:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

You yourself started this RfC quoting the current status quo: "Generally unreliable for factual reporting especially with regard to politics". This can only be read as the RfC taking a position on "factual reporting". Obviously facts can and will appear in reviews, but you didn't start this RfC to discuss the fringe cases when an editor cites a NYP review to verify a factual claim, you presumably started this RfC to see whether the community wants to discourage editors from using NYP reviews in entertainment articles. The context right here is David Gerard trying to justify his jumping the gun by saying that the earlier RfC does mean this already, but we should not express any understanding for that POV - we are specifically talking about it here and now, so taking action before allowing this discussion to conclude is obviously premature. CapnZapp (talk) 13:58, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Even if you mean the complete opposite, that NYP was previously considered generally unreliable overall but you want to see whether the community can exclude entertainment from that assessment, his actions remain just as premature - trying to get his edits in before this RfC changes the status quo is frowned upon, to say the least. (If this is your stance, our RS/P summary should have read "generally unreliable" full stop with no qualifiers) CapnZapp (talk) 14:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

This User:David Gerard is just wasting a lot of people's time here on Wikipedia with his BS editing based on his own personal views; he tags pages for speedy deletion when there is zero reason to do so, removes content out of the blue, engages in edit wars; will someone block him or should we keep wasting time to keep this bully at bay? Itemirus (talk) 08:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I blocked this editor for personal attacks. Doug Weller talk 19:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Middle East Monitor

The New York Times recently published an article on the proliferation of fake news from Russia, specifically a story about Zelensky’s mother-in-law purchasing a villa in Egypt.

Most sources that publicized this claim are already considered generally unreliable, with the exception of the Middle East Monitor, which is used widely on Wikipedia and whose involvement the New York Times describes as:

It also appeared on the website of the Middle East Monitor, or MEMO, operated by a well-known nonprofit organization in London and financed by the government of Qatar. A journalist who once reported from Moscow for The Telegraph of London, Ben Aris, cited it at length on the platform, though, when challenged, he said he had just made note of the rumor. “I don’t have time to check all this stuff myself,” he wrote.

The article is still up, meaning they've failed to correct the error when it was revealed to them, and the statement by Aris is highly concerning, which suggests a general issue at MEMO of them publishing and promoting fringe conspiracy theories without any attempt to verify that they are true. BilledMammal (talk) 13:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your summary, this is highly concerning particularly combined with the (probably fringe) views described in the page.

I would consider this worthy of an RfC after insofar as criteria are met, is that something you would agree with? FortunateSons (talk) 14:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

This looks like a misuse of the board. Instead of asking "Is source X reliable for statement Y" as is the norm, we instead assert unreliability without reference to any dispute. Cheered on by the chorus. Is the offending information cited to MEMO anywhere on WP? Selfstudier (talk) 14:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

All the MEMO report says is that El Mostaqbal reported this. And they did. And it also says The allegations have been denied by both the Ukrainian embassy in Egypt as “Russian propaganda”, while Orascom Development, the owner of the El Gouna resort issued a statement saying the reports were “completely false.”' MEMO does not report that this is true, they report that it was reported and that the both the Ukrainian embassy and the Egyptian government denied it. All of that is true. nableezy - 16:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That seems fine then. I wouldn't say this could cast any doubt on a source's reliability.--Boynamedsue (talk) 17:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

It attributes some to El Mostaqbal; others it puts in its own voice:

Al-Alawi’s body was discovered in the Red Sea city of Hurghada, with fractures and bruises found on the body. The cause of death was due to a cerebral hemorrhage as a result of a severe brain injury.

Al-Alawi never existed, and was not found dead, whether by a cerebral haemorrhage or other means.

In a recent interview, the deceased’s brother Ahmed Al-Alawi said that Mohammed’s investigation was his brother’s first big job, but that he started to receive death threats following its release.

Al-Alawi, having never existed, also never had a brother.

Further, regardless of what it puts in its own voice and what it attributes, I find it very concerning for a source to be pushing fringe conspiracy theories without any level of scepticism, and for it to fail to correct that error when it is raised with them - to me, those are indications that the source is generally unreliable. BilledMammal (talk) 21:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

No, it attributes that too. You're quoting out of context. What it says about the body is Al-Alawi’s body was discovered in the Red Sea city of Hurghada, with fractures and bruises found on the body. The cause of death was due to a cerebral hemorrhage as a result of a severe brain injury. The report, citing a source, also disclosed that the journalist had been beaten by a group of people. That is, once again, citing the report. And there is no error in what they report, they are saying that so and so reported such and such. And that is true. They also say that so and so say it is Russian propaganda. That is also true. Your claim that they are "pushing fringe conspiracy theories" is completely unsubstantiated, they are relaying what was reported and attributing it to who reported it, and also attributing who says it is not true. It has a link to the interview, making that attributed as well. You are misrepresenting what they are reporting. nableezy - 22:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

No, that is attributing to the report that "the journalist" had been beaten by a group of people. It's not attributing the claim that he died.

Further, the interview is linked, but MEMO is saying in its own voice that the interview was given by Al-Alawi's brother - the brother who doesn't exist.

Regardless, is it not concerning that MEMO spends so little time verifying its stories that it is literally pushing Russian conspiracy theories, stories that it refuses to retract? This is not the behavior of a reliable source. BilledMammal (talk) 22:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

It is very clearly saying all this is from the report. You can tell that by the word "also". What is there to retract? That El Mostaqbal reported this? They did. nableezy - 22:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

My reading differs - the "also" refers to their earlier explicit mention of the report. And what there is to retract is the entire story; they are presenting - and thus promoting - Russian conspiracy theories as credible, saying things such as the report disclosed rather then the report alleges. The fact that they attribute parts (but not all - clearly you at least agree that the story presents both Al-Alawi and his brother as real people) doesn't change that. BilledMammal (talk) 22:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The story they are "presenting" is that El Mostaqbal reported this. That remains true. At most it is missing a "purported" in front of brother when linking to the interview. They very clearly are reporting who said what, and who said its not true. They even include the claim that it is Russian propaganda. There isnt any part of what they are actually reporting that is an issue. nableezy - 23:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That really isn’t how an average person would read the article, and even if it was, their statement and lack of retraction is nevertheless a reason not to use them in any area with controversy. FortunateSons (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Im aware of your feelings on sources you dislike, along with your efforts to remove them from certain topics, you dont need to repeat them multiple times in the same section. There isnt anything in this to retract, what they reported is accurate, and I see no reason why this source is not perfectly usable. If you feel they should issue a correction there is a link at the bottom of the story for you to contact them. nableezy - 23:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Even you agree they present the brothers as real people; don’t you think they need to retract that?

And the NYT has already contacted them; their response was concerning, as I quoted above. BilledMammal (talk) 23:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That doesn’t appear to be true at all. nableezy - 13:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Which aspect? BilledMammal (talk) 13:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

That it is their response and not some independent reporter's who writes for a different site. nableezy - 13:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Even if we disagree on that I hope you can see their failure to retract this story as concerning. BilledMammal (talk) 01:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

That is certainly different from using “alleged” at the very least, if they are using such a source. Additionally, the conduct described above is certainly still concerning. FortunateSons (talk) 22:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Selfstudier that this discussion seems a misuse of the noticeboard. It is not relevant to some article and the publication isn't in RSP. But looking at the dicussion the thought occurred to me, I bet it has to do with NGO Monitor, and sure enough we have [18]. Why am I not surprised. NadVolum (talk) 23:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

It’s not misuse of this Noticeboard to discuss whether a widely used source that we now discover has a penchant for pushing Russian disinformation and conspiracy theories is reliable.

As far as I know, this has no relation to NGO monitor. BilledMammal (talk) 23:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

A "penchant" denotes a widespread tendency, "pushing" denotes a conscious decision to spread something, again with the strong implication of repetition. Here we have a single report, which attributes the story to somebody else and states that it has been denied.

I agree that, if MEM regularly published articles sourced to Russian propaganda, or if they had published this story as fact and repeatedly asserted its truth we would have to look at whether it was reliable for news relating to the Russia/Ukraine conflict. But that is not what this is about, is it? --Boynamedsue (talk) 07:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I say a penchant because of Aris’ response when challenged. The issue appears systemic.

Further, while some is attributed, not all is, despite the entire story being disinformation. ::::But that is not what this is about, is it? This is about the reliability of the source, nothing else? BilledMammal (talk) 07:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Bah, one not even much of an incident, and it is systemic? Then every newsorg is unreliable by that standard. Selfstudier (talk) 09:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It’s systemic because MEMO told the NYT "we don’t make any attempt to verify stories before publishing them". BilledMammal (talk) 09:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I can’t find anything by Ben Aris on MEMO. I can’t find he has any position there either. His Twitter profile doesn’t mention MEMO, so I don’t know what his unwilling to verify things has to do with MEMO. It also isn’t a normal thing to use quote marks for things nobody ever said. nableezy - 10:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It appears MEMO doesn’t publicly list the author of their articles. And I was paraphrasing - or do you think I was doing so inaccurately? BilledMammal (talk) 12:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

What we can say for certain is that NYT is attributing the unsubstantiated claim to Ben Aris (whose name doesn't appear anywhere on MEMO's website). M.Bitton (talk) 12:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

He doesn’t even say he writes for MEMO and the sentence structure is he referenced the MEMO article, and from his twitter he does. But he writes for BNE Intellinews. Paraphrases don’t use quotes. If anything that would be a sign of unreliability and disinformation. I see no evidence whatsoever that he writes for MEMO, much less represents them and their editorial policies. nableezy - 13:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

My reading differs - and clearly so do others here. BilledMammal (talk) 13:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

What others? Selfstudier (talk) 13:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

There is one immediately above my reply? BilledMammal (talk) 01:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Please provide any evidence that he writes for MEMO or has any position there. A listing of his articles at MuckRack shows nothing at all. He is also not listed anywhere on MEMO's list of editors and regular contributors. Please provide any evidence at all for the claim that MEMO said anything like what you say they said. nableezy - 13:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I see the invitation to provide any evidence at all for the claims made has been ignored, I’ll assume that means the claim itself has been dropped. nableezy - 17:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

At least they attributed the claims, unlike the New York Times (enjoy reading this discussion about the self-declared beacon of journalistic integrity). M.Bitton (talk) 00:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on where the linked thread discussed attribution? The only comments I can find when searching by term are my own. FortunateSons (talk) 01:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The linked thread is about a fabricated story by NYT (it goes without saying that attribution is way above those who sink that low). M.Bitton (talk) 01:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I am aware, I participated in that thread. However, the claims about the article in the NYT are both highly disputed and unrelated to the issue of attribution. As the New York Times generally enjoys a high reliability and the linked discussion did not come to a different conclusion, I am confused about the purpose of your comment. Could you elaborate? FortunateSons (talk) 02:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Simple, if the NYT can screw up, so can MEMO and the NYT screwup is rather more severe than anything MEMO is allegedly guilty of. All this is just trying to make a mountain of a very small molehill. Selfstudier (talk) 09:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Unreliable for the story about Zelensky's mother-in-law. In general, I think that we should be very careful with using a source financed by Qatar (one of the worst countries when it comes to the freedom of speech and a supported of various Islamist movements) and that has been described as a "lobby group." Alaexis_¿question? 22:09, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Generally reliable. It is obviously financed by Qatar, but so is every other self-proclaimed independent media state-financed, including the BBC, which has been publishing extremely misleading coverage of the war. All medias have biases, but that doesn't necessarily affect general reliability, unless it has been consistently false or misleading; which applies more to the New York Times than Middle East Monitor, as far as I have seen. Nothing justifies downgrading the reliability of this source so far. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss

It is laughable to compare the amount of control that the British government exerts on the BBC to the amount of Control that Qatari government exerts over Al Jazeerah. The UK is a democratic country committed to the freedom of speech and of the Press. Qatar is neither of these. Vegan416 (talk) 12:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Vegan416: With control or without alleged government control; that doesn't change the fact that editors can be biased and unreliable. Democracies have been implicated in serious human rights violations, claiming that they are immune to it, is egregiously of touch with reality. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is immune from committing human rights violations, and nobody claims to be immune to that. But still non-democratic states are much more likely to commit them (all else being equal) than democratic states. And in particular in this regard of the freedom of press I repeat that it is laughable to claim that there is no difference in the level of control the governments have on state-owned (or even private) media companies, between democratic and non-democratic states. And it is ridiculous to suggest that they should be assigned the same level of reliability. Vegan416 (talk) 13:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliability is not based on government type, but editorial controls and track record on content. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:31, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

What's actually ridiculous is to suggest that the reliability of a source depends on factors external to the quality of its reporting, and that all western sources monopolize the truth. This western-centrism is the root of systematic bias on Wikipedia. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss @Iskandar323

The reliability of a source depends on many things, among them editorial controls and track record on content. And editorial controls are heavily influenced by the government type. It is much more likely that the editorial controls in a non-democratic state will be in the hand of the government. Especially is state controlled/financed media. So the default assumptions in each case are different. At the very least we can say that the onus of proof that the editorial controls are not in the hand of the government is much higher in the case of non-democratic state media. Vegan416 (talk) 14:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you think this hasn't been discussed before in the context of AJ? No one is going to change the assessment of the reliability of AJ based on your personal opinions and suppositions about its editorial procedures. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I would ask people not to !vote here, this is not an RfC, and if it were it would be a bad one as it is not formulated in anything approaching a neutral way. Boynamedsue (talk) 15:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

+1 Selfstudier (talk) 16:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Having a quick look, there are also issues on their coverage of the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion; they haven't corrected their articles from immediately after the explosion that blamed Israel without equivocation, and even months later they continued to repeat those claims such as in this article where they say Hundreds killed in Israeli attack on Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza. BilledMammal (talk) 01:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Your position appears to be if a source doesn’t repeat some dominant POV of western sources that means it is unreliable. But that isn’t what that means, and there remains a dispute about the responsibility for that explosion, and a source taking a differing view than say the NYTimes doesn’t make that source unreliable. nableezy - 06:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Presumably BilledMammal's position here is simply that Middle East Monitor is claiming as fact something that is either untrue or unproven.

Also, @BilledMammal, the source you've provided was not published "months later" after the attack.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right - I misread the date. Published a month and a half later. BilledMammal (talk) 11:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m saying a source that continues to unequivocally blame Israel despite most evidence suggesting PIJ is to blame is probably unreliable, and is definitely highly biased. BilledMammal (talk) 07:25, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Some evidence advanced by allies of Israel suggests that, other evidence, such as the analysis by Forensic Analysis, suggests otherwise. You are saying that if one does not take the conclusion of Israel that it is unreliable. And last I checked, that is not what reliability means here. nableezy - 11:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Beyond that, your retelling of this source is itself unreliable, the only place it includes that line is the title of a cartoon in the caption. Sheesh. nableezy - 11:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

"You are saying that if one does not take the conclusion of Israel that it is unreliable." Obviously this is not what BilledMammal is saying.

However, regarding "your retelling of this source is itself unreliable, the only place it includes that line is the title of a cartoon in the caption", this is concerning actually. BilledMammal has seemingly misrepresented the source by claiming that "they say 'Hundreds killed in Israeli attack on Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza'", despite that fact that this "claim" only appears as the caption of a cartoon at the bottom of the article.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

As far as I know, we treat captions the same way as we treat the rest of the article - there is no WP:HEADLINES for captions. If I am wrong, please correct me. BilledMammal (talk) 11:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Really?

From WP:Headlines: "Headlines [...] may be overstated or lack context, and sometimes contain exaggerations or sensationalized claims with the intention of attracting readers to an otherwise reliable article. They are often written by copy editors instead of the researchers and journalists who wrote the articles."

You don't think that applies to captions? Especially a caption on a cartoon...

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the concern is that headlines are often clickbait created by individuals other than the journalist or researcher, while captions aren't because if a reader is seeing the caption they have already been convinced to click.

However, if I'm wrong and that does apply to captions we should update WP:HEADLINES to explicitly include captions, as I suspect I'm not the only editor who believes that policy doesn't apply to them. BilledMammal (talk) 11:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I suspect most editors don't think about that at all. Selfstudier (talk) 11:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Given how many editors aren't even aware of WP:HEADLINES you are probably right, but I still think that if I am wrong and it does apply to captions we should clarify that policy. BilledMammal (talk) 12:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes that is indeed the conclusion BilledMammal is reaching. That if one does not favor the conclusions of Israel’s allies it is unreliable and or biased. nableezy - 12:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

And if I'm reading it right, that cartoons are part of the moderated journalistic content of a newspaper. NadVolum (talk) 12:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment there is also the argument of fringe to be contended with: they are alleged to be a “a news site which promotes a strongly pro-Brotherhood and pro-Hamas view of the region. Memo’s director, Daud Abdullah, is also a leader of the Brotherhood-linked British Muslim Initiative, set up and run by the Brotherhood activist Anas al-Tikriti and two senior figures in Hamas.”. Additionally: “The Community Security Trust, the main Jewish organization monitoring all forms of racism, highlighted on its website that Corbyn is also scheduled to appear soon at a conference of the conspiracy-theory peddling anti-Israel organization Middle East Monitor”. (sources from MBFC, but citations checked) FortunateSons (talk) 12:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  MBFC is not a reliable source. Selfstudier (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, which is why I directly checked the citations (visible because mine are longer than theirs) and linked them. Feel free to check them yourself. FortunateSons (talk) 12:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Pass. Selfstudier (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Holding views you dislike is not and has never been a factor for a sources reliability. nableezy - 13:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  Not, my personal dislike is not a factor. However, WP:FRINGE and other policies exclude some extreme views that go beyond bias, something that being strongly pro-terrorist-org (according to many countries) and ‘peddling conspiracy theories' probably meets. FortunateSons (talk) 13:21, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  That’s the opinion of a lobby group. And many countries consider Israel to be a genocidal racist country, does that rule out all pro-Israel sources? Again, not holding views you dislike is not a criteria for reliability. Full stop. nableezy - 13:25, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  The Community Security Trust is primarily a charity, referring to it as a lobby group is at least misleading. Additionally, both of my sources are RS per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, and the views that MEM is allegedly expressing are definitely unusual enough to be concerning. FortunateSons (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  CST just copped a whacking £54 million handout from Sunak to bolster the defense of UK Jews apparently under a tremendous siege by raging antisemites that make London unsafe for them. On the other hand UK-Med is setting up a hospital jerryrigged with pieces of local timber to cater to 100 Palestinians a day, while 500,000 need attention. Apparently it is less safe for a British Jew to live in London, than it is for a Palestinian to live in Rafah.

What you call unusual or fringe views happens to be those that articulate the views, news and facts of a two-sided conflict, as those are perceived by one half, the defeated or crushed party. NPOV demands extreme care to maintain balanced narratives, and drying up access to the few newspapers that take on the burden of expressing the generally silenced perspectives of one party only consolidates the WP:Systemic bias we have to cope with in this area.

There are many cogent reasons why we should retain our use, always careful, of less 'mainstream' sources. The most important is the systemic bias of our default newspaper RS, New York Times, the Washington Post, The Times of Israel, the Jerusalem Post, Ynet and even Haaretz (the Guardian gives more coverage but not much) is known to all, and was underlined by a remark made in the NYTs the other day. The Israeli sources we accept are all now extremely pro-war and partisan, and much of their reliable content exemplifies a battle to show whose coverage is more patriotic, something that in turn feeds into the copy and paste Western newspapers. Chipping away, as has been done recently at the putative unreliableness or 'fringeness', even of the handful of newspapers that give voice to a Palestinian/Arab perspective, is nothing more than indicative of a tendency to spin reportage according to the dominant perspective of one of the contendents.

A study by the University of Arizona’s Maha Nassar found that of the opinion articles about Palestinians published in The New York Times and The Washington Post between 2000 and 2009, Palestinians themselves wrote roughly 1 percent. Peter Beinart, The Great Rupture in American Jewish Life,' The New York Times 22 March 2024

I.e., NYTs practice (and they are the most 'liberal' of the venues cited) is to delegate 99% of opinion articles on Palestinians to non-Palestinians (Americans, American Jews, or Israeli Jews normally). Nishidani (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

First, the opinion is of Haaretz, not the "lobby group".

Second, we aren't here to right great wrongs; we don't use unreliable sources because no reliable sources contain the perspectives we believe should be included.

Third, your comment about the percentage of opinion articles seems irrelevant. How many opinion articles in the NYT about Russia are by Russians? How about Turkey? China? Israel? I suspect Palestine isn't a significant outlier among non-anglophone states of global interest.

Finally, regardless of reliability, I think it is clear that this is a biased source that should only be used with attribution, particularly now that FortunateSons has presented that Times article. BilledMammal (talk) 14:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, it was telegraph and Haaretz, not Times :) FortunateSons (talk) 14:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The opinion I referred to is conspiracy theories, the holding views you dislike is referring to the Telegraph article. Holding views that agree with the Brotherhood or Hamas for that matter has nothing to do with reliability. You may want this to be a Zionist project where only sources that toe a certain line are allowed, but it is not and it has nothing to do with reliability. Not liking the views of a source is not and has never been a factor for a sources reliability. There is nothing disqualifying about holding views that promote a supposed pro-Brotherhood or pro-Hamas view of the region. Would holding that the Palestinian refugees have a right of return be disqualifying? Because that’s a pro-Hamas viewpoint of the region. You may keep trying to change the purpose of this board to be that of instituting a political test on sources, but I’ll keep calling it what it is. nableezy - 16:25, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Let’s WP:AssumeGoodFaith and beWP:CIVIL here. FortunateSons (talk) 16:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

When people attempt to rule out sources because of the views they hold they are misusing this board and attempting to institute a political test of their liking to sources. Again, holding pro-Hamas views has nothing to do with reliability, nor does holding pro-Israel views. You are the one making this about the views they hold. Is it a sign of unreliability to hold views associated with a state credibly accused of an ongoing genocide? Should all news sources that have been identified as pro-Israel be censored because of those views? Or do you only apply this test to the views you don’t like? nableezy - 16:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The issue isn’t the moral position of the source, its opinions are just clearly perceived as fringe by the sources cited by me. While there is some systemic bias, being in favour of terrorist groups is going to very likely put you in fringe territory regardless of which terror group it is: the same would have probably applied to a pro-Rote Armee Fraktion source had Wikipedia existed back then. If said source was also distributing conspiracy content enough to be noticed by MSM for it, even worse. FortunateSons (talk) 17:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Fringe doesn’t mean what you think it means. Holding pro brotherhood or pro Hamas positions isn’t fringe. nableezy - 17:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I think supporting terrorist groups and spreading conspiracy theories while not fact-checking or retracting stories is a factor when it comes to assessing the reliability of a source. It’s ok if you disagree FortunateSons (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Can I have ur permission to disagree as well? Thanks in advance. Selfstudier (talk) 18:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Of course, you did ask so nicely FortunateSons (talk) 18:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

None of that is true, please don’t make bogus assertions and expect people to pretend like they are true. nableezy - 18:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

They were referred to as all 3 by RS, and the story is still up FortunateSons (talk) 18:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

No, holding pro-Hamas viewpoints is not "supporting Hamas", and the Community Security Trust isn’t a reliable source, sorry. Again, holding views you don’t like is not something that matters here. Holding views that one right wing source calls pro-Hamas has nothing to do with reliability. It’s a funny thing that happens here, people forget we are supposed to include all significant views published by reliable sources but then try to define what is reliable based on the views sources hold so as to suppress those significant views they dislike. But bias, supposed or otherwise, has nothing to do with reliability. So despite the effort to create a list of beliefs one must not hold to be cited our policies remain diametrically opposed to such efforts. nableezy - 18:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Pardon me, publicising media while being pro-Hamas and having a mission statement which includes The use or misuse of information is central to the conflict in the Middle East. There has been a growing need for supporters of, in particular, the Palestinian cause, to master the art of information gathering, analysis and dissemination. This requires well organised, focused and targeted operations. Such initiatives are virtually non-existent in the West today. The Middle East Monitor (MEMO) was established to fill this gap. and As such, we regularly interface with politicians, editors, lobby groups and various other stakeholders to facilitate a better understanding and appreciation of the Palestine issue. is totally and meaningfully different from “supporting Hamas”.

The CSR wasn’t discussed as an RS (though I would be tempted to say they are generally analogous to the ADL). Additionally, we do exclude fringe views already, and we don’t need a pro-Hamas viewpoint for the sake of [[WP:FALSEBALANCE], there are decent pro-Palestinian sources even before the war and particularly now. FortunateSons (talk) 19:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing remotely fringe about MEMO or its views, and therefore, nothing to exclude. Frankly, this joke is now officially a time sink that is wasting our resources without a snowball's chance in hell of achieving anything. M.Bitton (talk) 19:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The idea that a pro-Israel viewpoint should be included but we should be excluding sources for having similar views to Hamas, besides being a basic association fallacy, is one that is not in keeping with our core policies. If you want a website in which only views that you like are allowed you can go start your own, cus this one ain’t it. nableezy - 19:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

If it helps, I believe that we also should exclude any news source with the same reliability issues that’s pro Ku-Klux-Klan, pro Jewish Defense League, or probably pro Kach (political party). We don’t have to WP:FALSEBALANCE our way into pro-terrorism viewpoints. There are good and diligent sources that express pro-Palestine views and those ought to be included even where I disagree with them, Memo just isn’t one of them. The inclusion of RS and the exclusion of fringe and unreliable sources is an important part of Wikipedia. FortunateSons (talk) 20:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

But not pro state credibly accused of genocide I guess. And again, there is zero evidence of pro-terrorism, repeatedly making false statements isn’t the best look. nableezy - 20:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Pardon me, they are not pro-terrorism, just pro-terrorist-group. FortunateSons (talk) 20:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

That makes the others (like NYT) pro-Genocide (when committed by a friend). M.Bitton (talk) 20:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

That also is not true. What your one right wing source says it has pro Brotherhood and pro Hamas views of the region. Which could be in favor of anything from lifting the siege on Gaza to supporting the rights of Palestinian refugees to agreeing that Hamas has a legitimate right to resist foreign occupation and racist domination. None of that has anything to do with anything, and your attempt to redefine RS to exclude views you dislike is not one that has any policy backing. Nor even much support on this board. nableezy - 20:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, you're confusing bias with reliability. The anti-Palestinian bias of the New York Times doesn't prevent the NYT from being treated as RS. M.Bitton (talk) 20:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and there are significantly biased (not:fringe) sources that are also reliable, and this isn’t one of them. Nevertheless, I agree with your last comment that this discussion is unlikely to produce results, we will just have to wait for when this comes up again. FortunateSons (talk) 20:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

You've been told this before, but I'll repeat it here: 1) Fringe doesn't mean what you think it means. 2) There is nothing remotely fringe about either MEMO or its views. M.Bitton (talk) 20:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Who receives what donations is always depended on a variety of circumstances and is unrelated to reliability in this context.

I too would prefer if there were more and better mainstream reliable sources on the pro-Palestinian side then there currently are, but using an unreliable and fringe source is not the solution to the western systemic bias, it’s the long term creation of reasonable and reliable sources on both sides, something that I (and probably you) don’t have the ability to do. As said above, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS is not the solution to a geopolitical and sociological issue. FortunateSons (talk) 15:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Look we have here this long thread and have proved what exactly? Not a whole lot, right? Selfstudier (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, both 'sides' provided good arguments for the inevitable RfC, otherwise, who knows. Maybe someone else will find something additional to contribute. FortunateSons (talk) 15:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Two editors fomenting a storm in a teacup does not a case for an RFC make. Selfstudier (talk) 15:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, there are at least 5 participants, and considering the conduct and use of the source, I think it’s quite likely that it will be an RfC at some point. FortunateSons (talk) 15:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, perhaps when there is an actual live dispute over the use of the source on Wikipedia, that could be considered. Selfstudier (talk) 15:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, something that I would consider probable FortunateSons (talk) 15:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh well if the great bastion of race-baiting that is the Telegraph has made some aspersions about people with foreign sounding names, I'm sure we're good as gold to take the info as writ. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Might want to take a look at the author of that piece. Selfstudier (talk) 09:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

If a news outlet is routinely posting disproven information, incorrect information, or misinformation, it probably isn't a reliable source. Toa Nidhiki05 17:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Really, never knew that. Are you saying that applies to MEM0? Another evidence free accusation? Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but that isn’t the case here at all so I don’t see the relevance to that general statement. nableezy - 18:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• No case has been established. I've never paid much attention to MEM and I don't think I have ever cited it. However, to eliminate a source requires much better evidence than I see here. Once arguments that really amount to "I don't like its politics" are removed, there is practically nothing left. Overall this is an unusually weak case. Zero^talk 01:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
• I see MEMO as a non-reliable source that has no editorial standards and exists mainly to amplify a particular political position. I haven’t seen incidents of it actually promoting falsehoods apart from the one mentioned by the OP. But I believe the CST is a very reliable source (not a lobbying organisation, and far more reliable than the ADL, who are currently being discussed elsewhere on this page, so if they say MEMO promotes conspiracy theories I take that seriously. I don’t think, contrary to some comments here, that we should relax our standards in order to accommodate more that give voice to a Palestinian/Arab perspective: there are plenty of far stronger sources that do (Al-Jazeera, +972, Al-Monitor, The New Arab, the Independent, the Guardian…). I also object to the ad hominem attacks and assumptions of bad faith that have been a feature of this discussion. In a thread above, I am accused of not considering Norman Finkelstein reliable because I want to hide the truth; in this thread a second person agreeing that this source is unreliable is described as soon as coordinated chorus; and the accusation has been made that this is somehow instigated to defend NGO Monitor. (The fact that I’ve defended Al-Jazeera and 972 and opposed NGO Monitor as reliable sources doesn’t seem to stop such allegations.) Instead or these allegations against editors, defenders of this source would be better off giving examples of use by reliable sources or other actual reasons to trust it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  That's all very well, where though is the actual evidence of unreliability? It wasn't CST saying that they promote conspiracy theories, that was Haaretz (Anshel Pfeffer) saying that - "The Community Security Trust, the main Jewish organization monitoring all forms of racism, highlighted on its website that Corbyn is also scheduled to appear soon at a conference of the conspiracy-theory peddling anti-Israel organization Middle East Monitor, along with the anti-Semitic and Holocaust denier cartoonist Carlos Latuff." What are these conspiracy theories?

  So no, the burden remains with those accusing the source of unreliability to demonstrate that, not just allege it. Selfstudier (talk) 10:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, use by others. How about (Wikipedia Library links): Insight Turkey ([19]), Counter Terrorist Trends and Analyses ([20]), International Crisis Group ([21], [22]), Journal of Palestine Studies ([23]), Stockholm International Peace Research Institute ([24]), Arab Studies Quarterly ([25]), and that's just when I got bored going through the JSTOR results. That enough evidence to go against your completely evidence-free opinion here? nableezy - 16:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks Nableezy. That kind of evidence posted early on would have been more useful than (evidence-free) allegations that editors were here to hide the truth. Re CST, they did indeed say MEMO promotes conspiract theories, albeit a while ago:

  Middle East Monitor (MEMO) is a pro-Palestinian lobbying group which generally supports Islamist positions within Palestinian politics. We have had cause to write about MEMO on this blog before, because they commonly promote conspiracy theories about politicians in Western nations being beholden to Jewish or Zionist political manipulation and financial inducements, along with other classical antisemitic canards and tropes.[26]

  And:

  MEMO has featured repeatedly on the CST Blog for peddling conspiracy theories and myths about Jews, Zionists, money and power. This has included questioning the suitability of Matthew Gould for the post of UK Ambassador to Israel simply because he is Jewish. MEMO also continued to spread the untrue story that the ‘Innocence of Muslims’ film was a Zionist plot to stir up hatred of Muslims, several days after it had been widely established that the film was made by Egyptian Christians. One MEMO article, titled 'How money from pro-Israel donors controls Westminster', was even praised by American neo-Nazi David Duke. In 2009, when Channel 4's Dispatches aired a programme about pro-Israel lobby groups, MEMO illustrated their article about the programme with this image that implies Jewish or Israeli financial influence over the UK Parliament. A reverse Google images search suggests that this image originated on the thoroughly antisemitic Radio Islam website.[27]

  And: There is much else that is problematic in MEMO's report, not least the repeated Zionist conspiracy-mongering that is becoming their stock-in-trade. But this example illustrates a lesson they ought to heed: if you make things up as you go along, sooner or later people will stop believing what you say.[28] In the first cite above, CST actually goes further, saying that MEMO included a quote from Ariel Sharon that they say has been thoroughly debunked since it first appeared in 2001 in a press release from the pro-Hamas Islamic Association for Palestine. IAP's claimed source for the quote, the Israeli radio station Kol Yisrael, had never broadcast it, and their political correspondent confirmed that Sharon never said it. No other source has ever emerged to confirm IAP's claim.[29] Finally, in other pieces, CST accuse MEMO of multiple inaccuracies in relation to Raed Saleh.[30][31] BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  And is the CST material used by others? Those are CST blogposts you are citing there.Selfstudier (talk) 12:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Are these particular CST pieces cited by others? Well, we got to them because Ha'aretz cited them so yes. If you want a general discussion about the reliability of CST, probably better to open a new thread. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Blogposts are not RS, so no need. Selfstudier (talk) 14:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not quite right. See below. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• I would argue that CST is generally reliable. In addition, it’s clear that the relevant citations confirm what the original RS source said. FortunateSons (talk) 13:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  They are blog posts. MEMO > blogposts. Selfstudier (talk) 13:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is the blog of a reliable monitoring organisation not a self-published blog in the sense used by WP:SPS. It should have a similar status to e.g. SPLC Hatewatch or the Hope Not Hate blog, sources we've discussed before and ruled reliable. If you wanted to get pedantic, MEMO is essentially a blog if this is: MEMO is an organisation with a particular political perspective publishing its own content. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Lots of RS orgs have blog post sections, they are just opinions, MEMO is a newsorg. Selfstudier (talk) 14:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Assessment of use by others

I've had a moment to look at reputation and use by others a little more systematically, by going through mentions in news articles via Google news and factcheck sites via Poynter Institute. Here's what I found:

• Favourable:
  • DW has used it as a reliable source on the Palestinian Authority in 2016, calling it a "not-for-profit policy research institute".[32] (They also used it a "pro-Muslim Brotherhood website" the same year.[33])
  • The Misbar fact check website uses MEMO as a reliable source in factchecking a fake claim on social media.[34]
  • Snopes lists MEMO among "numerous international news outlets" reporting on the Saudi Miss World entry[35]
  • AFP occasionally uses it as a reliable source in factchecks.[36]
• Unfavourable:

  • AFP reports MEMO passed off an anti-Saudi satirical article as true. The story may have been intended as light-hearted fiction, but other websites have since reproduced it without clarifying that it was made up for fun. The Middle East Monitor and Zambian entertainment site Tumfweko relayed the story, as did India’s Times Now before issuing a correction.[37]

  • Annenburg's Factheck.org finds it misrepresenting a video of IDF violence (In addition to the video, the post includes a link to an Oct. 30 article in the Middle East Monitor, a website that says it supports the “Palestinian cause.” That article includes a quote that reads: “Israeli commanders made ‘difficult decisions’ including ‘shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages.'” The quote is attributed to a security coordinator at Kibbutz Be’eri, one of the settlements attacked by Hamas on Oct. 7. But the aerial footage shown in the post comes from a longer compilation video shared by the IDF on Oct. 9 on X [which] shows aerial bombings at several sites[38]
  • Misbar finds it (along with Al-Mayadeen) falsely claiming on its social media channels that a settler stabbed a Palestinian woman, based on video that was in fact an intra-Palestinian domestic incident (as debunked by an Al Araby TV reporter).[39] The same website reports MEMO reporting fake news about Nike quitting Israel.[40]
• Ambiguous:
  • Logically Facts lists it among "news sites" (the others are Al Jazeera, The New Arab, and Jordan News) using false reporting from Channel 14, Israel's version of Fox News.[41]
  • Jerusalem Post reports them making unconfirmed claims about Israeli organ harvesting[42]
  • Highly reliable fact checking site Lead Stories mention their report being used in social media misinformation about October 7 but not clear if their report is accurate or not[43]
  • It features in a failed fact check from Polygraph about Libya, but it's the person they're quoting that is failed rather than MEMO.[44]
  • An AFP factcheck of a false claim made in a viral video mentions a Middle East Eye and Middle East Monitor videos as the original sources of the video; the MEMO version was not falsely dated (as in the viral version), but was misleadingly captioned.[45] Elsewhere, AFP describes MEMO as "a UK-based not-for-profit press monitoring organisation".[46]
  • Politifact describes MEMO as "a publication that calls itself a supporter of the Palestinian cause"[47] Elsewhere, fact checking a viral video, it lists MEMO among "Some pro-Palestinian news outlets [that] shared the video that’s been circulating social media, but they provided no additional information to substantiate the claim."[48]
  • CAMERA UK, a partisan pro-Israel media monitoring organisation, complains about a Daily Express (low quality right-wing UK tabloid, which we consider generally unreliably ) report that it says reproduces Palestinian Authority propaganda, and adds "Moreover, it’s quite telling that the only other site we could find that covered this “horrific” report was the pro-Hamas site Middle East Monitor (MEMO). Interestingly, though, MEMO’s headline (“Report: Israel imposes $28,000 fines on Palestinian children”, June 4) is significantly more restrained than the one chosen by Daily Express editors."[49]
  • HonestReporting, another partisan pro-Israel media monitoring organisation, complains about an International Business Times report (we consider IBT unreliable): "The journalist gets his information from a range of sources and links to sites including: Terrorist organization Hezbollah’s Al-Manar website; Iranian government propaganda outfit Press TV; Anti-Israel hate site Middle East Monitor (MEMO)."[50]
  • CheckYourFact calls it "a pro-Palestinian lobbying group".[51]
  • Several fact checks have found its videos being repurposed with fake information in viral social media posts, but this doesn't say anything about its own reliability.

Conclusion: not enough evidence of unreliability to call it "generally unreliable" but definitely enough to not call it "generally reliable" so probably yellow flag rather than red or green. Some RSs consider it a news organisation, but many consider it a lobbying group. I'd say: use with extreme caution, always attribute, try to triangulate if only partisan sources are available, be cautious if it's the only source, replace with better sources if any are available. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

If that's a long way around of saying attribute anything controversial, I would go along with that. Selfstudier (talk) 12:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh. Is this over at last? That was a fairly big mountain of molehill. I must admit in the past of producing long documents adhering to all the standards when I wanted people to just give up and let something pass without comment, but that doesn't seem to work on Wikipedia thankfully. NadVolum (talk) 13:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

]Jerusalem Post reports them making unconfirmed claims about Israeli organ harvesting

Their unconfirmed claims are actually significant evidence that they are generally unreliable. The claim is that Israel dug up or otherwise took dead bodies from graveyards and morgues and stole major organs from those bodies. This is scientifically impossible; for such organs to be viable the individual has to have died in hospital with the organs removed almost immediately. There is no way that organs can be retrieved from bodies that have been buried or left in morgues for any length of time. BilledMammal (talk) 00:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Post said that a whole slew of sources reported that, not just MEMO, who were mentioned once only in passing. So no, that is not significant evidence at all. Selfstudier (talk) 10:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The claim is that Israel dug up or otherwise took dead bodies from graveyards and morgues and stole major organs from those bodies That claim is attributed to Euro-Med.

It's about time we closed this time sink. M.Bitton (talk) 12:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Not entirely; MEMO says, in their own voice, that there is evidence of organ theft. They also say "Moreover, Israel has made it lawful to hold dead Palestinians’ bodies and steal their organs." The first part of this is true - the second part is a falsehood. BilledMammal (talk) 13:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I just read that article and it sounds to me as if the Euromed call for an investigation is on the right track.

"There have been reports in recent years of the unlawful use of Palestinian corpses held by Israel, including the theft of organs and their use in Israeli university medical schools. Israeli doctor Meira Weiss disclosed in her book Over Their Dead Bodies that organs taken from dead Palestinians were utilised in medical research at Israeli universities’ medical faculties and were transplanted into Jewish-Israeli patients. Even more concerning are admissions made by Yehuda Hess, the former director of Israel’s Abu Kabir Institute of Forensic Medicine, about the theft of human tissues, organs and skin from dead Palestinians over a period of time without their relatives’ knowledge or consent. Selfstudier (talk) 13:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Hiss stole from Israeli's, Palestinian's, and foreigners. Weiss' book discusses his actions; the fact that these sources omit these highly relevant facts raise serious questions about their reliability and neutrality, but it does not support these claims. BilledMammal (talk) 13:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What I said stands: you misattributed a statement to MEMO.

What MEMO said cannot be dismissed just because you don't agree with it.

What has been quoted by Selfstudier makes JP's dismissal of the well-founded concerns look ridiculous. M.Bitton (talk) 13:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What did I misattribute? MEMO says, in their own voice, that there is evidence of organ harvesting. They also say, in their own voice, that Israel has made it lawfully to steal Palestinian's organs. BilledMammal (talk) 13:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I quoted (in green) what you misattributed to MEMO. Please don't do that again. M.Bitton (talk) 13:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The article I linked also says that it is documented that bodies were taken from hospitals, and these are the bodies it is referring to when it says there is evidence of organ harvesting. You are right that it does fully attribute the claim about dug up bodies - I confused the various different sources I have seen on this, and will try to be more careful in the future - but the substance of my statement was correct.

Can we now move on to discussing what MEMO actually said? BilledMammal (talk) 14:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

the substance of my statement was correct the substance of your statement is based on a misrepresented source. M.Bitton (talk) 14:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Fuentes video

Revising down my opinion of MEMO a little having noticed they published a video this week of fascist antisemite Nick Fuentes, without indicating that he might be problematic. They just call him an “an American political commentator” and apparently approve of his view that Israel “controls” America “through bribery, espionage, and corruption”. Currently top of their “current news” section (news! even though obviously opinion). [52] BobFromBrockley (talk) 23:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

And Myron Gaines also features in the clip, interviewing Fuentes as if he’s the voice of MEMO, and saying it’s “100% a fact” that the Israel lobby is all-powerful. This is Gaines: https://www.mediamatters.org/manosphere/misogynistic-manosphere-influencers-embrace-nazism BobFromBrockley (talk) 23:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, massive red flag for me. Even a modicum of research would show who Fuentes is, and either they didn't do the research, or they don't care. Toa Nidhiki05 14:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

as if he’s the voice of MEMO, how did you come to that conclusion?

saying it’s “100% a fact” that the Israel lobby is all-powerful. some people have a very good reason to believe that's the case, so where's the problem with that and why should MEMO censor him when the so-called RS give a voice to the Islamophobes and anti-Palestinians of the worst kind? M.Bitton (talk) 14:29, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll just put it here https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-750425 Vegan416 (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Nothing to do with MEMO. Is there anything else or is that it? M.Bitton (talk) 14:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

There is much more at his wikipedia article. And the point was this "they published a video this week of fascist antisemite Nick Fuentes, without indicating that he might be problematic" and "Currently top of their current news section (news! even though obviously opinion)". Vegan416 (talk) 14:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

They don't need to do censor him to please Israel and its allies who give a voice to the Islamophobes and anti-Palestinians of the worst kind (without describing as such). M.Bitton (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

We are not here to right great wrongs. FortunateSons (talk) 15:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't do it then. M.Bitton (talk) 15:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

When I first saw the video, I assumed it was MEMO interviewing him and Gaines was the interviewer. I only subsequently realised it was an extract from Gaines’ podcast. They took an extract from a Nazi podcast, of a prominent fascist being antisemitic, and put it on their website — as “news” — with absolutely no context. That’s simply not the behaviour of a reliable source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

He is an American political commentator, that's a fact, everything else is an opinion that professional journalists such as those working for the BBC wouldn't use. So where is the problem? M.Bitton (talk) 14:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

If you look at the first citations on his article, you would see that there are quite a few choice words to describe him other than commentator. FortunateSons (talk) 14:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I repeat, him being a commentator is a fact, everything else is an opinion or a label that professional journalists don't use. Did you read what I wrote about the BBC? M.Bitton (talk) 14:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The bbc describe him as far-right and white nationalist FortunateSons (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Not when they are interviewing him. Is there anything else? M.Bitton (talk) 14:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It’s not possible to prove a negative, and perhaps some indication of political leaning would have been appropriate? FortunateSons (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Do the so-called RS (associated with Israel and its allies) give an indication of the political leaning of the Islamophobes and anti-Palestinians that they often interview (when not stating their BS as facts)? M.Bitton (talk) 15:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have an interview of one of them with someone who is as prolific as Fuentes? FortunateSons (talk) 15:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't and I certainly don't intend on looking for one. Back to the subject: is there anything else about MEMO that we need to discuss? M.Bitton (talk) 15:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I think this will be likely heading for an RfC anyway in the long term, so I don’t have anything for now FortunateSons (talk) 15:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Did the BBC ever interview him? Vegan416 (talk) 15:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so, but I have never seen them insult a host. M.Bitton (talk) 15:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Nobody asked them to insult him in his face during the interview. But when publishing the interview they could add a description of his extreme views in general, so the viewers can asses him better. Or better they could refrain from interviewing him in the first place. Like the BBC apparently did... Vegan416 (talk) 15:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

They could do all kind of things that you approve of, but like the other RS, they don't have to and as long as they don't fabricate stories (like the NYT), then everything is how it should be. Also, they don't have to copy anyone or let someone else decide for them on whom they should interview (for the sake of freedom of speech, etc.). M.Bitton (talk) 15:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It’s not an interview, it’s a video from a podcast posted to their instagram account. Should they have posted that? I wouldn’t have. Does it have anything to do with their actual reporting? Meh. nableezy - 18:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Correct it’s not an interview. Nor is it “news”. What it has to do with their reporting is: they chose to bring very fringe views into their news section even though it isn’t vaguely newsworthy, they mislabelled very extreme opinion as news, they gave so little context in simply calling him “an American political commentator” as to be misleading. I don’t see how you can’t get that makes them an unreliable source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

put it on their website — as “news” they didn't. What they did do is mention what an American commentator said in his own voice. Is there a problem with that? M.Bitton (talk) 22:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

They literally did. It was filed in the “latest news” section of the website. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Whatever the tagging or section on the website, the actual content consists purely of an Instagram link and a headline, so it is self-evidently not their own reporting or news. There's not much more to be said than that. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Clearly distinguishing between opinion and news is a usual indicator of a reliable news source, often invoked on this bulletin board. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

They did mention what an American political commentator said in his own voice. Again, is there a problem with that? M.Bitton (talk) 11:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Presenting fringe views as commentary isn't the same thing as presenting them in the publication's voice, endorsing them, or presenting incorrect information. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah but it’s just an instagram post, yes also posted the same to their website, and I get the problem here but this isn’t reporting or something that anybody would cite anyway. So meh. nableezy - 22:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

And they’ve taken down the video. They have also posted Bill Maher saying the Jews have right of title to Palestine. That they post people talking on podcasts isn’t the newsiest thing to do but I don’t see how this is really something to spend time discussing. nableezy - 22:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The sad reality is that Nick Fuentes is a not-insignificant American political figure despite the fact that he's horribly racist, and he famously had a meeting/dinner with former President Donald Trump. Describing him as "an American political commentator" is not inaccurate, nor are his statements not newsworthy.

Per Iskandar "Presenting fringe views as commentary isn't the same thing as presenting them in the publication's voice, endorsing them, or presenting incorrect information."

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

His meeting with Trump was newsworthy. His guest slot on a Nazi podcast isn’t. If it was newsworthy, a news organisation would report it, explaining who he is. MEMO didn’t do that; they just put him out there as a legitimate voice. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The news agencies (secondary sources) decide what is newsworthy and what isn't, that's their prerogative. M.Bitton (talk) 11:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes indeed. |"nick fuentes" "donald trump"| generates hundreds of google news hits, while |"nick fuentes" "myron gaines"| generates just ten, most from Media Matters for America, and all of which describe Fuentes as a white nationalist Holocaust denier and Gaines as a Nazi-embracing misogynist manosphere activist. The extent to which MEMO is an outlier here shows how fringe it is. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a lot of irrelevant WP:OR. M.Bitton (talk) 12:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Media analysis is not OR FortunateSons (talk) 12:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Irrelevant "whatever" that is based on someone's analysis is always irrelevant. The bottom line is that news agencies are free to give a voice to whomever they choose (that's what freedom of the press is all about). M.Bitton (talk) 12:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Reliability of WION

Following both previous discussions at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 315#Is WION a reliable source? and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 335#WION News, should WION News can be considered as unreliable? 103.230.81.135 (talk) 03:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment I would kindly ask you to add the voting options used for RfC on this noticeboard. FortunateSons (talk) 20:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

What is the reliability of WION, also known as World is One News?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Unlike Daily Mail, which is considered unreliable and depreciated. WION is an Indian news channel owned by Essel Group, which also owns Zee Media. The site contains extensive India-related articles, celebrity facts, and others does not itself as a generally reliable source.

wionews.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com --85.94.24.29 (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Option 3. I watched a lot of WION before, and I stopped watching it as it is geared towards the ruling BJP party. Ahri.boy (talk) 22:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Is it time to re-evaluate the ADL?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The ADL is a bit of an odd entry as a GREL source at RSP, and I'm wondering if this is simply a function of there never being a fully fledged RFC on the matter, and merely a handful of relatively informal discussions. The ADL is functionally a pro-Israeli advocacy group that has also dabbled in civil rights more generally. At the moment, the organization is deemed largely GREL with a few caveats: "There is consensus that ADL is a generally reliable source, including for topics related to hate groups and extremism in the U.S. There is no consensus that ADL must be attributed in all cases, but there is consensus that the labelling of organisations and individuals by the ADL (particularly as antisemitic) should be attributed. Some editors consider the ADL's opinion pieces not reliable, and that they should only be used with attribution. Some editors consider the ADL a biased source for Israel/Palestine related topics that should be used with caution, if at all." I find the last two of these points particularly odd. Does this mean that there are opinion pieces that would be considered reliable and not require attribution? And how and why? Don't we ordinarily attribute almost all opinion, unless issued from an utterly impeachable source? And only some editors consider the ADL a biased source for the Israel/Palestine conflict? Again, surely it is a dead ringer for bias in that area? This question has recently intensified. Since October, the ADL has increasingly veered towards supporting not just Israel, but expressly Zionism, and equated anti-Zionism with antisemitism Anti-Defamation League staff decry ‘dishonest’ campaign against Israel critics. And now "many civil society groups are increasingly reluctant to partner with the non-profit. The ADL has facilitated trainings between US and Israeli law enforcement officers and allegedly spied on progressive and Arab American groups. (The ADL settled a lawsuit stemming from the spying allegations but denied wrongdoing.) In 2021, about 100 social justice and civil rights groups signed an open letter urging other organizations not to work with the ADL. Since the 7 October attacks, the ADL has been working with law enforcement to crack down on college campus activism that it sees as antisemitic. They developed a legal strategy to go after branches of Students for Justice in Palestine, and reached out to 200 university leaders calling on them to investigate the group for allegedly providing support to Hamas, which the group vehemently denies. ADL has described grassroots calls for protests of Israel’s military campaign as “pro-Hamas activism”." - so not just advocacy group, but a group working with law enforcement to interfere with freedom of speech and, well, the last line there speaks for itself - preech false equivalence of the propagandistic variety. Is this really GREL? As good as the best a news source can offer? And from the intercept: How The Adl’s Anti-Palestinian Advocacy Helped Shape U.S. Terror Laws – standfirst: Long before 9/11, Zionist groups like the Anti-Defamation League lobbied for counterterror legislation that singled out Palestinians, a new report reveals., and quote: Emma Saltzberg, the U.S. strategic campaigns director for Diaspora Alliance, an organization that fights “antisemitism and its instrumentalization,” told The Intercept that the ADL’s call for terrorism investigations is contrary to its stated mission as a civil rights group. And then finally we have Jewish Currents, with ADL Staffers Dissented After CEO Compared Palestinian Rights Groups to Right-Wing Extremists, Leaked Audio Reveals, the groups in question here including Jewish Voice for Peace, which the ADL CEO Greenblatt called “extremist” and compared to right-wing extremists. Is this really a source that we consider GREL, with only a ho-hum, "some editors consider the ADL a biased source for Israel/Palestine? Only some? Who doesn't? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Has this come about by way of a current dispute? A recent article in the Guardian opens in their own voice, with

ADL has only doubled down on initiatives defending Israel and the policies of the Israeli government amid criticism and staff resignations.The Anti-Defamation League CEO, Jonathan Greenblatt, sparked controversy in 2022 when he placed opposition to Israel on a par with white supremacy as a source of antisemitism.

and continues in a similar vein. The bias is severe enough that I think this source should be considered gunrel for IP matters. Selfstudier (talk) 17:41, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

It hasn't come by way of a particular dispute, but by way of the ADL repeatedly being brought up as GREL source in conversation with respect to the conflict, which seems entirely beyond the pale at this point. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:45, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

They are definitely a clear case for biased but reliable, I’m not sure who fully disagrees with biased in an I/P context. I would call them pretty objective when it comes to other topics, particularly right-wing and other antisemitism.

Regarding reliability, they are broadly cited, even during this conflict, and there are no other issues concerning reliability that are apparent which are not covered by bias.

While a phrasing change is a reasonable idea, probably by removing the opinion sentence and clarifying that the some users part refers to “that should be used with caution, if at all.” and not to the biased part, I see no reason to remove the ADL from the GREL list or to even re-discuss the topic. FortunateSons (talk) 17:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The phrasing can hardly be changed without a re-discussion of the topic. One does not make changes willy-nilly to RSP. But thank you for your constructive engagement on the possible oddities here. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

We could definitely remove the second to last sentence for being specifically outside of policy, if we find unilateral consensus here, no? I think editors who could be perceived to be on “any side” of this conflict are still here to build an encyclopaedia, and using unattributed opinion pieces if we don’t do it for a Paper of Record is nothing anyone should support. As I consider the last sentence to be merely a linguistic and not a content error, requesting a new close could fix that, right? FortunateSons (talk) 18:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

If there is additional sourcing available similar to that of the Guardian, I fail to see how this source can be considered as anything other than generally unreliable for IP matters. If such sourcing exists, an RFC to clarify that seems desirable. Selfstudier (talk) 17:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I suppose if one had to point to one particular issue, it would be this Guardian phrase again: "ADL has described grassroots calls for protests of Israel’s military campaign as “pro-Hamas activism”." - I would say that this strays far beyond mere bias and into the realm of quite chronic falsehood. This is an extremely problematic position. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The linked tweet (so not what we would use anyway) sounds within a reasonable interpretation of the facts, though I’m not very happy with tone (read: bias) either. Some of the “grass-roots-activism” is definitely supportive of at least some of the methods and goals by Hamas which were otherwise criticised by (western) media. As unfortunate as it is, warnings were somewhat reasonable based on some of the attacks on Jewish and Israeli institutions and organisations outside of Israel which happened over the last few months. FortunateSons (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

And bias is kind of covered, so unsure we need to change anything. Slatersteven (talk) 18:02, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Its statistical reporting of antisemitism has also been rubbished by tenured law professor David Bernstein [53], so even if we're cool with the propagandizing, its facts are a problem. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources doesn’t list Tablet (magazine), but I’m going to stick with biased but reliable unless shown otherwise, despite it being somewhat right-wing.

With the exception of the bomb threats (were I disagree with the outcome but understand the argument, as I would count 163 bomb threats against Muslim institutions to be Islamophobic even if not intended to be as such), I would say that the ADL response appropriately addressed most of the issues at hand. Do you disagree? FortunateSons (talk) 19:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I emphasized the author precisely because it was a professor, so regardless of the hosting source, it's a subject-matter expert speaking. He highlighted among other flaws an extremely skew-y methodology, misleading presentation, and ultimately concluded: "The ADL itself is primarily to blame for how its own study has been misconstrued and misused." The ADL's response was the usual fluffy PR waffle and hardly addressed the meat of the concerns, or any of the specifics, in the slightest. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I have found past reporting to be pretty clear, but I guess that’s subjective FortunateSons (talk) 22:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

David Bernstein is a right-wing tenured law professor who strongly believes that measuring, monitoring and indeed most forms of opposing racism are generally bad pursuits, who in 2017 was attacking the ADL for its reporting on antisemitism under Trump, but even he does not criticise the way they recorded data, but the way mainstream media reported their findings (which he said their press release was partly responsible for). The meat of his concerns that the what the ADL calls antisemitic incidents are not violent incidents and therefore shouldn't make Jews feel unsafe. We absolutely should not see his opinion piece as indicating unreliability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

That's not entirely correct. He also criticises the type of incidents captured, including those found later to be unrelated to antisemitism but which the ADL did not discount. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

But ADL were very upfront about this in the report: Jewish institutions, including Jewish schools, community centers, and museums as well as synagogues, were the targets of 342 anti-Semitic incidents in 2017. This is an increase of 101% over the 170 incidents recorded in 2016. However, this number includes 163 bomb threats made in the first quarter of the year; the vast majority of which were alleged to have been perpetrated by a troubled Jewish teenager located in Israel. Excluding those bomb threats, the total number of incidents targeting Jewish institutions is 179, an increase of 5% over the 170 incidents targeting those places in 2016.[54] To me, this transparency shows we can use them as a source for facts, and perhaps just double check that we're not misinterpreting what they are counting. BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

But it's still calling threats by a Jewish teenager antisemitic incidents? Are they implying self-hatred? Iskandar323 (talk) 23:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The question here is: does the ADL giving the figures both with and without these reported incidents in the 2017 report, and being explicit about doing that, mean they're not reliable for facts? BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

That's one question. Another is whether they are competent at categorising information in the first place. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

What is the ADL's reputation, that is what we should be basing this on? Slatersteven (talk) 11:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: I find the fact that even the group's own staff have been protesting at its partisanship and targeting of other civil rights groups over the past 12 months (Jewish Currents (March 2023), The Guardian (January 2024)) is pretty indicative of the issues at hand. Even if the ADL hadn't arrived at naked partisanship prior to Greenblatt, it surely has done so under his leadership. Now Jewish Voice for Peace, for example, have been grouped with the antisemitic crowd for advocating for Palestinian rights. So now, at least in the IP conflict sphere, the ADL appears to be anti-civil rights where it conflicts with its pro-Israel messaging. Given that the organisation's original merit was deemed to be in categorising far-right extremist groups, when it makes analogies between Jewish Voice for Peace to far-right groups and calls them "left-wing extremists", it is using the weight of that voice oppressively. So it is now leveraging its position within the civil rights community to take a stand against other Jewish groups when they conflict with it ideologically, which is remarkable to say the least. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• It seems like they are becoming more partisan recently including with their domestic coverage. I don't see any reason to cite their output on the I/P conflict—it's not like they do original reporting or scholarship in that area. (t · c) buidhe 01:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
• As the person who opened the original ADL RfC, I specifically asked the Israel-Palestine question because it seemed to me that the ADL was partisan on this topic, an opinion I still hold. While I think the ADL is a useful source for far-right extremism ala the SPLC, there are much better sources for the I-P topic area. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Does anybody ever use it as a source on I-P itself? That would be bizarre. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  I recall it being used to state that the phrase "from the river to the sea" is antisemitic, which is the sort of usage I had in mind. I don't think it's unusable to represent its own opinion, but it's views definitely should be attributed to the ADL rather than stated as fact. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  It's being cited in the Finkelstein thread on this page right now. Levivich (talk) 02:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It's been brought up in Talk pages that the ADL (and in related discussions the SPLC) are RS with regard to what can be called a "hate group" etc -- I think that's the more typical citation we see, rather than for facts on currents events like I-P. Their methodology on this similarly comes under criticism from time to time, but it somewhat depends on the types of activity they're covering (which is part of the problem -- a lot of the methodology behind their pronouncements, particularly for smaller groups, is opaque). Generally in such articles the ADL's pronouncements are cited with in-prose attribution, unless (as in bigger articles) they are backed up with peer-reviewed scholars claiming more transparently something similar. (I seem to recall we used to have information on think tanks and advocacy groups on the WP:SOURCETYPES section of WP:RS, or somewhere else, but I cannot find it; this seems a notable gap in otherwise extensive coverage.) SamuelRiv (talk) 22:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: 1. The fact that you don't like the politics of a certain source is not a reason to declare it unreliable. The only justification for deprecating a source from "reliable" to "not reliable", in general or on any specific subject, is to show that it has started to make false factual claims (in general or on a specific issue) in a rate that is significantly larger than it made before, and significantly larger than the average rate of false claims that appear in other reliable sources. You didn't present any proof of that here with regard to the ADL.

2. I strongly reject your suggestion that holding the view that "antizionism is a type of antisemitism" is a reason to declare someone as unreliable. The idea that "antizionism is a type of antisemitism" is very far from being a fringe idea. On the contrary, it is a very common and mainstream idea. See for example here, here, and here. It's true that there is a minority that thinks otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still a mainstream idea. Claiming that holding this view makes the ADL unreliable source means that every news organization that has any political mainstream view (that is contested by some people) should be considered unreliable. For example by this logic the NYT should not be considered a reliable source on American politics because it endorsed Biden over Trump. But of course nobody would make such a preposterous suggestion.

3. Furthermore there is a clear and simple justification for the position that "antizionism is a type of antisemitism": what anti-Zionism claims is that, unlike all other nations, the Jewish nation doesn't have the right of self-determination in its homeland. This is a discrimination against the Jews, i.e. anti-Semitism. In other words the view that "antizionism is a type of antisemitism" is equivalent to the view that "like all other nations, the Jewish nation has the right of self-determination in its homeland". If you think that holding the view that "the Jewish nation has the right of self-determination in its homeland" make a source unreliable, then by the same logic you should also declare almost all of the Western media as unreliable because they support the view that "the Ukrainian nation has the right of self-determination in its homeland". And by the same logic you should also declare all of the Arab and Muslim media (and most of the Western media as well) as unreliable because they support the view that "the Palestinian nation has the right of self-determination in its homeland". All of this is of course completely preposterous. Vegan416 (talk) 07:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, the first example seems to indicate that the appropriateness of equating anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is actually deeply contested rather than mainstream: In the US, Palestinian rights supporters have long rejected conflations of Zionism with Judaism, noting that many Jewish Americans identify as anti-Zionist. The three attestations of anti-Zionism being anti-Semitism, as found in the linked sources, are from government legislators or appointees (the U. S. Congress, the French Parliament, and a seemingly trial-level court ruling from a judge)—these are not journalists writing for reputed periodicals or academics writing in scholarly venues. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Hydrangeans

I don't know in what kind of country you live, but In democratic states (like the US, France and Germany) the government and legislators are representing the people, and therefore the opinion of the government and legislature (especially when it has vast majority in them) is BY DEFINITION a mainstream opinion. Vegan416 (talk) 07:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you know how Wikipedia works. Legislatures are not reliable sources on Wikipedia. Otherwise the US Congress could say that Iraq has WMDs and we'd have to print it in Wikivoice. Loki (talk) 19:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree that a legislative body is not an RS. However, I would consider a decision by a major US legislative body to be a strong indication that it isn’t a fringe idea.

In this specific case, the correlation (and disputed causation) between anti-zionism and antisemitism is at the very least broadly discussed and therefore not fringe. That doesn’t have to mean that it is true, but it does likely mean that it isn’t fringe.

While the discussion itself is interesting (but out of scope), I think the fact that the argument by @Hydrangeans considers it contested and not fringe is enough to show that antizionism = antisemitism is not fringe (enough) and therefore does not impact reliability. FortunateSons (talk) 20:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The decisions of a legislature have no impact on reliability at all. A state legislature once tried to declare that pi = 3.2 exactly. Doesn't make it so. Loki (talk) 23:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

True, but regarding social issues (as this is), a significant amount of bodies making such decisions indicates that it isn’t a fringe view. Right? FortunateSons (talk) 00:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Not in the Wikipedia sense of the term. Per the guideline on fringe, in Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field (italics added), not the "prevailing views of legislators elected by the public" or even "the prevailing views of the general public" (which legislators don't necessarily represent anyway; consider gerrymandering and how it makes legislatures more extreme than and less representative of their constituents).

As far as understanding the prevailing views of the field—that's to say, scholars who study antisemitism, discrimination, etc.—one could do little worse than Oxford University Press' Antisemitism: A Very Short Introduction (2015 [2nd ed.]) which states, To equate anti-Zionism and antisemitism is, however, far too simplistic, theoretically crass, and demeaning to the memory of those who suffered the horrendous consequences of real antisemitism (116). The ADL is out of step with the field. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I unfortunately don’t seem to have access.

While not quite as good as your source, the NYT article shows that it is disputed, at least enough to not be fringe.

Additionally, this subject matter expert describes a significant correlation: source

Second source from the same expert. FortunateSons (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The excellent NYTimes article on the subject provides many views but in no way endorses the concept that anti-Zionism is antisemitism. The last line is “I think there is a contempt for active, engaged American Jews who think it’s not just about Israel existing,” she said, “but Israel existing in a context that does include the Palestinians.” O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate you removing the personal comment.

The article does not claim that antizionism is per se antisemitism, but clearly discusses it as one of a handful of “mainstream” view points, showing that an/‘the’ newspaper RS does not consider it a fringe view, otherwise it wouldn’t be discussed like that. FortunateSons (talk) 01:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL's position seems to be more complex and flexible than anti-Zionism = antisemitism. This is evident from their analysis of/attack on the Jewish Voice for Peace organization here as part of their "Anti-Israel Activity" backgrounder reporting. An example quote is, for example, "Criticism of Israel or of Zionism is not inherently anti-Semitic. But sometimes it is." In any case, this kind of wide-ranging discussion seems too far removed from the advice at the top of the page, "Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports.", to produce a result of practical use to editors. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Loki

1. I know very well how wikipedia works. What you seem to completely misunderstand is that the discussion here is not at all about whether we should put in an article the statement "Antizionism is antisemitism" as a fact in the wiki-voice. I would actually completely object to doing so, because it is clearly a matter of opinion and not of fact.

2. If on the other hand someone would have suggested to write in some article the the following statement "The view that antizionism is antisemitism is a far from being a fringe view in the USA, as is evidenced for example by the landslide vote in favor of it in the house of representatives" as a fact in wiki-voice, that would be completely ok and acceptable. The RS which will establish this fact would not be the legislature decision itself, but rather an article describing the vote in some RS such as for example this https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/world/middleeast/house-anti-zionism-antisemitism.html. This simply follows from the dictionary definition of "fringe". A view that is held by 3/4 of the population, or even just 1/2 of the population simply cannot be fringe. This would be a contradiction in terms.

3. But in fact, even this is not the discussion here. The discussion is whether the fact that someone holds this view disqualifies him from being RS. So you criticism here was completely irrelevant and off the mark. Vegan416 (talk) 20:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Fringe-ness is not decided by the opinions of random people, it's decided by the opinions of experts in the relevant field. There are many things that the majority of Americans believe that are unambiguously WP:FRINGE. Most Americans believe that ghosts exist. Loki (talk) 23:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Loki

I completely reject this. The opinion of 75% of the US legislature is not the "opinions of random people". And the analogy to belief in ghosts is not relevant, because this is not a scientific question at all but rather a political/semantic one. The definition of antisemitism is not a question of fact, but rather of opinion, and there is no scientific definition of antisemitism. That means there is really no need to rely on experts on this question.

But if you insist on using experts in the field, then it is easy to demonstrate that the view that "antizionism is antisemitism" is far from being a fringe idea even among experts in the field of the research of antisemitism. For example in 2016, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance adopted a Working Definition of Antisemitism, which endorsed the equation of certain manifestations of anti-Zionism with antisemitism. And here are several more references to RS which support the claim that antizionism is antisemitism:

https://books.google.co.il/books?id=767fCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.co.il/books?id=BHtrEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA448&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Vegan416 (talk) 11:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The notion that AZ = AS is misused to protect Israel and that includes IHRA misuse. Some people do use AZ to hide behind, but one cannot use that in order to tar every anti-Zionist with the same brush and people that do that are contemptible. As is quoted above, "To equate anti-Zionism and antisemitism is, however, far too simplistic, theoretically crass, and demeaning to the memory of those who suffered the horrendous consequences of real antisemitism". Selfstudier (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That's your personal opinion and the opinion of whoever wrote that sentence you quote. But I subscribe to the view that denying the Jewish nation's right of self-determination in their historic homeland is a type of antisemitism, and so are many experts as I have shown, and so are 75% of the US legislature. If that means you think that I am contemptible, well I'm sorry about that, but I can live with it. It won't make me change my mind. Vegan416 (talk) 11:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Generally reliable for I/P and antisemitism and Social Justice in general ADL is one of the most important organizations in combatting antisemtism, it was also an important organisation in the civil rights movement and has faced scrutiny by those opposed to social justice for decades. Jonathan Greenblat head of ADL was an advisor to Barack Obama and headed the Office of Social Innovation and Civic Participation under Obama so I don't think anyone can say they are partisan in politics in favour of the right wing. Also Greenblat and ADL have been active in condeming Trump's travel bans and have critisized Trump's adminsitration as well as Mike Pompeo for anti mulsim activities. [55]

Also it is very important to note that according to CNN [56] Elon Musk is trying to demonize and delegitimze ADL and Jonathan Greenblat because they crtisized him and Twitter. Clearly they are not afraid to go against the big fish.They even boycutted twitter. I am also worried that these bad faith accusations against ADL is influenced by Elon Musk's twitter campaign. Eladkarmel (talk) 09:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Nothing after your initial !vote has anything to do with assessing the source's reliability, or engages with concerns already expressed about such. Remsense诉 09:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Please note the RfC is not here Vegan416 (talk) 10:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Bias is not an issue, factual accuracy is. Slatersteven (talk) 12:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: Sure, so do you think it is a factually accurate statement that Jewish Voice for Peace are left-wing extremists? Because my sky is blue reading of that is that it is tripe. Based on the ADL contention that anti-zionism = antisemitism, Jewish Voice for Peace are also antisemitic. So are we happy with allowing the ADL to label (as fact) other Jewish groups as antisemitic – essentially the classic "self-hating Jew" pejorative for those that don't toe the line, but sadly not in this instance rolled out for comedic purposes. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

That all smacks of OR. What do RS think? Slatersteven (talk) 13:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: Well it isn't. I presented you with the Jewish Currents and Guardian articles just above. Did you miss my comment, and have you actually read the contents? Iskandar323 (talk) 13:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

You mean the stuff about what some of their staff think? Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Aside from that RS reporting, there's also this Times of Israel piece on the ADL's long-standing antipathy towards Jewish Voice for Peace. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

That an RS reporting disgruntled staff, not them saying it is unreliable, and the new source seems to be the one calling JVP far-left, not the ADL. Nor doers it seem to be overly crucial of the ADL. Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Are we missing the point that the ADL is an advocacy group that publishes material without peer review or anything by way of an editorial board? If it were a lobby group that advocated on behalf of companies, it wouldn't get anywhere near RSP, but because it is a lobby group that advocates on behalf of a country (a foreign government in the context of the US) it appears to get a free pass. The tuppence from the Nation entitled "The ADL Goes Full Bully: The organization’s new campaign against anti-Zionist and Palestine-solidarity groups is a clear sign that it lacks the credibility to lead on civil rights issues." Iskandar323 (talk) 16:13, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

No i am missing the part where RS say (in their words) it is not reliable, and with this I am out, and I suggest others users drop out as well rather than bludgeoning the process, we have all had our say. Slatersteven (talk) 16:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems worth mentioning that the guideline on original research applies to how we write articles and is not a prohibition against carefully studying sources to gauge independence, reliability, etc. There are plenty of reasons to still prefer assessments from reliable sources, and I generally do so—but in this case the question becomes academic, because Iskandar323 has provided a source. The Nation article linked in their prior comment states outright, at the end of the article, in the body text, the ADL lacks the credibility to lead on issues of equality, discrimination, and civil rights. Credibility is the fact that someone or something can be believed or trusted. If the ADL cannot be trusted on questions of discrimination and civil rights, it is not a reliable source for identifying hate speech/activities, assessing social movement groups, etc. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:45, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Hydrangeans

The problem with your argument is that The Nation itself is considered by most editors to be a partisan source (See here ) so you cannot use subjective claims coming from it to disqualify another source. Vegan416 (talk) 08:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe ADL is a reliable source for facts in the topic area where it has expertise, e.g. in reporting on right-wing hate groups or conspiracy theories. The problem is about its judgement in using contentious labels such as "extremist", which are labels WP generally ought to avoid anyway. It is also the case that it is hasty in labelling Israel criticism as antisemitic and fails to distinguish between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. For this reason, we should not say "X is antisemitic", citing only ADL. However, as it is heavily cited and notable, it would often be noteworthy for us to say "ADL describe X as antisemitic", balanced with noteworthy opposing views where applicable. In the specific example given above, if any publication of the ADL called e.g. JVP extremist or antisemitic, that might be noteworthy (especially if reported by secondary sources) but not something we should relay in our own voice without attribution -- but it anyway appears that this was the personal opinion of the CEO rather than an official statement of the organisation. ADL has absolutely no expertise on Israel-Palestine itself, and I cannot imagine why anybody would cite it in that topic area. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful for editors to link to a Wikipedia article that uses ADL for the I-P conflict for context. Oxfam is an advocacy group, and I have seen a secondary source quote Oxfam for use in the I-P topic area, so I am not sure if ADL being an advocacy group excludes it from being reliable. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• It's green because it doesn't misrepresent facts. The main contentions I'm seeing here that I feel like I can refute are that:
  • The ADL is unreliable to use for factual statements of anti-Semitism because it conflates anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism.
    • In response to this, it already states in the RSP listing that the ADL must be attributed for claims of antisemitism. This is already the status quo and doesn't necessitate going down in reliability.
  • The ADL is biased in the Israel-Palestine topic area.
    • This is again, already the status quo and RSP says to use it with caution in that area.
  • The ADL accused some campus groups such as Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) of supporting Hamas.
    • Students for Justice in Palestine supported the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. [57] [58] The exact quote from SJP is contained in their "Day of Resistance toolkit". [59]

      • Today, we witness a historic win for the Palestinian resistance: across land, air, and sea, our people have broken down the artificial barriers of the Zionist entity, taking with it the facade of an impenetrable settler colony and reminding each of us that total return and liberation to Palestine is near. As the Palestinian student movement, we have an unshakable responsibility to join the call for mass mobilization. National liberation is near— glory to our resistance, to our martyrs, and to our steadfast people.

    • This is what the ADL was referring to when it said that SJP supported terrorism. [60] Generally, when someone makes a statement in support of a terrorist attack, it's assumed that they also support the terrorists that committed the attack. @Iskandar323: says that:
      • I suppose if one had to point to one particular issue, it would be this Guardian phrase again: "ADL has described grassroots calls for protests of Israel’s military campaign as “pro-Hamas activism”."
    • I would like to hear how the above statement isn't "pro-Hamas".
    • I also don't understand why this degrades the ADL as a reliable source. Currently, the ADL targets many groups that make violent threats against Jewish people, such as neo-Nazis that glorify the Holocaust. Another quote from SJP's toolkit:
      • Settlers are already fleeing the land, their ‘dedication’ to the settler colony is easily broken. The dedication of Palestianians for their national liberation is unshakable.
    • If I'm not mistaken, this is glorifying the genocide of Jewish Israelis and acclaiming how many were turned into refugees during the conflict. The ADL's position has not changed during the conflict or since October 7th. Generally, they oppose groups that advocate for the murder of people because they are Jewish, regardless of if it is Europe, America, Israel, or anywhere else in the world.
• The burden of proof here is to show that the ADL isn't publishing the truth. As far as I can see, this burden hasn't been met. I welcome inline replies as I put this in point-form. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 01:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  No source is presumed to be reliable. The burden of proof is precisely the opposite: those arguing that a source has a reputation for fact checking and accuracy should be prepared to show it's the case. (t · c) buidhe 03:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  The claims made by the source are substantially true and it's already been shown to be reliable in previous discussions. There's been no evidence offered to show that this has changed. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 13:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Chess: I don't believe I raised a single specific point about this group called the SJP, but instead focused entirely on JVP. One might call it somewhat strawman-ish to respond to entirely different specifics than those that were raised. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  JVP is an extremely controversial group in the Jewish community, not just for its anti-Zionism but also its association with radical Palestinian groups and individuals, including convicted terrorists. You can literally read about in on their own Wiki page, but it’s no surprise a mainstream Jewish group like ADL would regard JVP very poorly. Toa Nidhiki05 16:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  I fully support Chess's position that the ADL is a reliable source and that the status que should not change. Vegan416 (talk) 06:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• It's very frustrating to see the decline of the ADL into a propaganda org for Israel over the last few years because it has been a valuable resource for tracing American nazis and neo-nazis. I would suggest the exercise of extreme caution in the use of ADL sources - likely inappropriate for anything even tangentially related to Israel. But if it's dealing with issues surrounding Americans that it is identifying specifically as Nazis in a context not involving Israel it would likely still be at least somewhat reliable in that context. Simonm223 (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  I've also found this In These Times piece charting the ADL's slow-motion abdication of its civil rights leadership role. There's also this Boston Review piece in a similar vein, though not sure if it's guest analysis or opinion. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  The Anti-Defamation League: Israel’s Attack Dog in the US

  "Posing as a civil rights group, the ADL has long operated as an intelligence organization targeting Israel’s critics. So why does the media still treat it as a credible source?" Selfstudier (talk) 14:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

• This is a complicated one because:
  • The ADL is clearly unreliable regarding the I/P conflict. They're mainly cited for whether or not a group is a hate group, but they regard essentially any opposition to Israel at all as antisemitic, which is not anywhere near a mainstream position on this issue. Just going by their public statements, they'd accuse the vast majority of nations in the UN of antisemitism just based off their official positions towards the Israel-Palestine conflict. No newsorg in the world would repeat those accusations in their own voice, so it's clear their accusations in the area are not credible.
  • Despite this, when talking about antisemitism outside the context of I/P, the ADL clearly are a reliable source, and often a useful one.
  • This would normally justify two entries (compare WP:FOXNEWS and WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS), except that it's fairly often the case that these two areas of expertise converge on each other and cannot clearly be separated. For instance, it's sometimes the case that pro-Palestine organizations do things that could be viewed as antisemitic, such as protesting outside a Jewish-owned business that donates significantly to Zionist causes. For an organization to have credibility in this situation it needs to be able to judge the situation neutrally, but the ADL clearly can't, even though there is some credible reason to think there's antisemitism going on.

So I think my general inclination would be to lower the ADL overall down to yellow, and make a separate red entry for the ADL on Israel/Palestine. Loki (talk) 22:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps keep green for the moment on things not related to Israel and Jews, but I think yes, just having a warning in it about such matters is inadequate when it actively harasses Jews who are against Israel's expansionist policies. NadVolum (talk) 13:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable in I/P area; possibly in others. This is an advocacy group so the threshold is higher than for a standard peer-reviewed secondary source. Recent coverage suggests that the sources is not only biased but may be unreliable. For example, The Nation dismantles ADL's claims that "U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel" and asks ...why does the media still treat it as a credible source? --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable in I/P area. Agree with Coffman. Conflation with disagreement of Israeli politics or Israel itself with antisemitism is problematic to a dangerous level. A defamation league cannot itself falsely defame others. Period. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable for I/P and antisemitism, broadly construed per Simon, Loki, Coffman, OP, The Guardian, The Nation, et al. Treating criticism of or opposition to Zionism or Israeli govt policies/actions as antisemitism makes them unreliable on these issues. They really shouldn't be used as a source for anything IMO, as they're an advocacy group, not scholarship or journalism. (For the record I'd say the same about SPLC, Oxfam, Heritage Foundation, Greenpeace, etc.) Levivich (talk) 02:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
• Reliable for I/P and antisemitism. The ADL believes that the Jewish nation has a right of self-determination in its homeland like any other nation, and that therefore antizionism is antisemitism. This is a very reasonable position, and even if you are against it for some reason, it is definitely not a ground to declare the ADL as unreliable. Furthermore, there is no scientific definition of antisemitism, since this is not a scientific question but rather a question of political opinion (or of semantics) so the question of "expertise" is irrelevant. But if one insists on "expertise" in this field then clearly the ADL can be viewed as experts in it, as they have been researching it for more than 100 years. Vegan416 (talk) 06:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Vegan416: Your comment is signed "Levivich" instead of "Vegan416". Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 06:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Hydrangeans: I've struck the original erroneous signature and added an unsigned template, so it should be good to go now, thanks. Left guide (talk) 06:31, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  corrected. The editor interface here is really inconvenient to use. Vegan416 (talk) 06:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable on the Israel–Palestine topic area and on antisemitism. Coffman and Loki sum up the matter well, and the quotation I provided further up from Oxford University Press' Antisemitism: A Very Short Introduction, 2nd ed. (2015) grounds some of my reasoning: To equate anti-Zionism and antisemitism is, however, far too simplistic, theoretically crass, and demeaning to the memory of those who suffered the horrendous consequences of real antisemitism (116). The ADL is out of step from the field. To Vegan416's comment, I would say that reducing Zionism to a right of self-determination in its homeland is eliding other aspects of Zionism, including those that are what some critics of Zionism take issue with, like settler methodology and negating the diaspora. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 06:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  this is the definition of Zionism https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism:

  "Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews".

  Please explain how being "anti" this idea is not being against the Jewish nation's right of self-determination. Vegan416 (talk) 06:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Also "negating the diaspora" is not an integral necessary part of Zionism. The fact is there millions of Zionist Jews who live in the diaspora. And I don't understand what you mean by "settler methodology". In any case criticism of Zionism is not defined antisemitism by the ADL. What the ADL defines as antisemitism is real antizionism, i.e. the belief that Israel doesn't have a right to exist as a Jewish state in the Jewish nation's historical homeland. And I said before this is view of the ADL is quite mainstream Vegan416 (talk) 10:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Also, in 2016, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance adopted a Working Definition of Antisemitism, one which subsequently was officially recognized by various governments, foremost among them, the United States and France, which endorsed the equation of certain manifestations of anti-Zionism with antisemitism.

  And here are several references to RS which support the claim that antizionism is antisemitism:

  https://books.google.co.il/books?id=767fCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

  https://books.google.co.il/books?id=BHtrEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA448&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/29/comment Vegan416 (talk) 10:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is not the place for a debate like this, we are here only concerned with reliability of ADL, not these other distractions. Selfstudier (talk) 11:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  But one of the main arguments of the person who opened this discussion here was that the ADL is not a reliable source because the ADL says that antizionism is antisemitism. And some of the other editors here follow suit. So how can we answer his question without discussing this argument? Vegan416 (talk) 11:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  I and others have replied elsewhere about the idea that AZ = AS, in general that is false (and no, I do not want to debate that with you). Selfstudier (talk) 11:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Nobody forces you to debate with me. But I of course reject your opinion that it is false. Vegan416 (talk) 11:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Generally unreliable: I was actually also just about to open this discussion. The ADL has been historically controversially in matters relating to antisemitism and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict generally, having been embroiled in espionage and defamation campaigns against pro-Palestinian activists. But that's not the only source of controversy; the ADL was even engaged in a propaganda campaign against Nelson Mandela and had numerous other controversies relating to its recognition of the Armenian genocide. Recently, the ADL has broadened its definition of antisemitism to label pro-Palestinian demonstrations as such, even in the face of increasing internal dissent within the organization, and critical investigative reports done by the Guardian and the Nation [61] and [62]. The Nation's report published two months ago went as far as describing the ADL as Israel's "attack dog" in the United States! This is an extremely historically controversial organization which has not been reliable. Every single claim made by this organization needs to be attributed, if used at all in controversial cases. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The Nation itself is considered by most editors to be a partisan source (See here ) so you cannot use subjective claims coming from it to disqualify another source. Vegan416 (talk) 13:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Twice you have said this, The Nation is green, ie generally reliable, even if biased. Selfstudier (talk) 13:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The Guardian is also green, and we can definitely use their reporting to disqualify a controversial source like the ADL. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL is also green, ie generally reliable, even if biased. And so it should stay. Vegan416 (talk) 14:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Idk about that, I'm thinking there are enough caveats being expressed here that we should perhaps consider a formal RFC to look at that, what do others think? Selfstudier (talk) 15:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, quite possibly. We now seem to be at: highly partisan, tone-deaf advocacy group that can't be relied on re: IP, antisemitism or its catalog of hate symbols ... But maybe, just maybe, might be reliable for its material on far-right hate groups in the US? (Talk about a niche reliability disclaimer!) Iskandar323 (talk) 15:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Generally reliable except where its claims are based on a definition of antisemitism that differs from what readers would expect (and the definition most other groups/scholars seem to use). That seems to be the main objection to its reliability, which has become more acute since October. There's no reason to skip by traditional "option 2" (additional considerations apply), which seems like a good fit here, in favor of "option 3" (generally unreliable) when it has, for years, been publishing highly respected and widely cited research, journalism, and commentary-style content on extremism, hate groups, stereotypes, misinformation, etc. I see no reason their perspective on the scope of antisemitism should have any bearing on all of that, but I do see why we shouldn't simply cite their data on, say, the rise in antisemitic incidents as fact. If it's deemed to have WP:WEIGHT, it should be attributed and probably contextualized, since it's not the same definition the average reader would think of. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

BTW I boldtext !voted because that's what people started doing, but given the current consensus is based on an advertised RfC, this should really be turned into an RfC if the intention is to change WP:RSP. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, I'll open one separately now. Loki (talk) 23:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Done. Loki (talk) 00:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL does sloppy research on 'hate symbols'

It has repeatedly come up on related pages that the ADL cannot be trusted when it comes to researching symbols. The research they put forth is utterly terrible and would not pass an introductory course on the matter.

An example that caused a headache over at our own Black Sun (symbol) article (back in 2019) is their entry on what they call the "Sonnenrad" ([63]). This entry appears to have once been intended to be about the the Black Sun (symbol), but an earlier version appeared to have no idea what the word Sonnenrad was used for (and seemed to have been copied and pasted from an earlier, non-ADL resource without much thought).

As the entry today says (probably after someone their encountered our discussion of it), the German noun Sonnenrad is literally 'sunwheel' and can refer to any number of other symbols, including the swastika. Nonetheless, the ADL still hasn't bothered to make a separate Black Sun entry, an important neo-Nazi symbol today.

Their symbol database is full of other poorly-researched entries with dubious 'facts', like on the group's entry for the Wolfsangel symbol (entry). Here the ADL claims it is "an ancient runic symbol", which is completely false. It is not a character from any historic ("ancient") runic script. And I know they've repeatedly been asked to correct this by scholars.

Most of their entries on historic symbols are just a mess (like this one, where they use the "life rune" term throughout without noting that this comes from 1900s Völkisch circles and is not 'ancient'). And that's just the beginning of the issues with this article — all their articles on runes are just a total mess. They are certainly not something we should be considering reliable.

The ADL could easily correct the many issues in these entries at any time by bringing on an expert. To date they have expressed no interest in doing so despite positioning themselves as authorities on these topics. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:48, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/sonnenrad seems to actually say all of what you say about the sonnenrad, seems pretty balanced to me. Slatersteven (talk) 18:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Adjusted above. While still garbled, confused, and incorrect, the ADL revised the entry to make more sense, and that's why there are only images of the Black Sun with it. This sloppy 'research' led to an obnoxious discussion over at the article's talk page ([64]) and it's why the ADL lacks a Black Sun entry, despite the attention the topic has received. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  So what do they say that is factualy incorrect? Slatersteven (talk) 19:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Besides the Wolfsangel example above, the misinformation about the Black Sun, and the lack of research about the "life rune"? The whole database is riddled with errors, provides no authorship information (who wrote this garbage?), and cites no sources. I could easily put together a long list here. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  What misinformation about the black sun, what do they say about it that is wrong? Not a long list, one factoid they get wrong, just one. Slatersteven (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm discussing historic issues with the site. The current entry is better than the old one but it remains a garbled mess that isn't clear that what it's discussing, not even calling the Black Sun symbol by name. And the Wolfsangel isn't an "ancient rune", for example. Poor 'research' like this continues to cause issues on relevant Wikipedia entries. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:24, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

All Black suns are sonnerad's that is not incorrect. And the Wolfsangel is a rune as all runes are "Runes were used to write Germanic languages (with some exceptions) before they adopted the Latin alphabet, and for specialized purposes thereafter." so yes it is a rune that dates back to at least 1299, Thus is can be argued that even Ancient is not wrong, as it is a matter of perspective. So this is a POV issue, not an inaccuracy one, so with this you have the field. Ohh and correcting errors is a sign of being an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 19:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

"so yes it is a rune that dates back to at least 1299" — lol, what on earth are you talking about? The Wolfsangel has never been a part of any historic ("ancient") runic alphabet. That's an objective fact. It does however get confused for 'an ancient rune' by non-experts and here we see this happening with the ADL, which is unacceptable for a resource positioning itself as authorative.

Are you remotely familiar with the runic alphabets? Do you know what a rune is? We have plenty of articles on these topics.

I strongly suggest that you do some very basic research before commenting further. When someone has genuine concerns about reliability and demonstrates poor research, step one is for you to become familiar enough about a topic to discuss it before attempting to do so.

Furthermore, there's one Black Sun (Schwarze Sonne) symbol and it's from the mid-1930s-early 1940s. It gained its name in the 1990s and it's just a type of 'sun wheel', which is nothing more than a category with a questionable name. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I remember this discussion occurring at Azov Brigade, I forget the conclusion though. Selfstudier (talk) 19:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Together, the lack of sourcing, the lack of care, and the cavalier nature of these entries suggests it is a bad encyclopedic resource. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Our own articles must have citations and authorship. However, that is not a requirement for sources themselves (or not necessarily). The lack of bylines in The Economist, for instance, is a bit of a pain, but does not render it non-RS. A lack of citations or hyperlinks in a magazine piece would not render it non-RS if the magazine were otherwise deemed reliable. If there are factual errors, that is another matter, and those seem more worth highlighting. Freelance-frank (talk) 21:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Not all sources provide their sources, but most sources have some sort of provenance. News sources have editorial boards, academic papers have peer review, even think tank papers normally have a list of sources, and the ADL has what exactly? Blind trust? Iskandar323 (talk) 22:15, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

It literally states, sourced, on the Wolfsangel page that this symbol is sometimes mistaken for a rune, but appears in no runic alphabet. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems like that the list of perennial sources should note that the ADL is unreliable regarding hate symbols. Cortador (talk) 21:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmm... this is actually all fairly convincing that the ADL just shouldn't be a reliable source in general. Especially failing to correct the Wolfsangel mistake is a big one: that's a clear mistake of fact and while making it doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on them, not correcting it absolutely does. Loki (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that, in general, most of the organizations that purport to make lists of "hate symbols" just kind of throw whatever crap in there. For example, if you look at the ADL's "hate symbols database", you will see entries for:

• 1-11
• 12
• 13
• 14
• 18
• 23
• 28
• 33/6
• 38

I don't really think a classification should be taken seriously when, of the two-digit numbers between 10 and 40, ten are hate symbols. jp×g🗯️ 10:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

If you look at these entries, it’s clear that in context they are indeed hate symbols. When “12” appears in an Aryan Brotherhood tattoo as a symbol of the AB it is absolutely a hate symbol. The fact that a lot of things are repurposed as hate symbols does bit make a listing of them unreliable. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• This all depends on what it's being used for. If there's debate over whether something is an ancient rune, no, the ADL should not win that argument. That's simply not their lane. If you're writing about how a symbol (whether an ancient rune or anything else) is used by a Neo-Nazi group, yes, ADL is a good source. Their hate symbols projects are widely cited in both scholarship and the press. Not scholarship as in "let's explore the ancient history of a symbol with help from the ADL" but scholarship that intersects with hate speech, hate groups, bias, etc. On that the ADL is seen as an authority (even if their popularity is decreasing over the last few months...). Yes, there are a lot of numbers in the database because there are lots of symbols that have been either created or appropriated by one or more hate-related purposes. As for whether to include it in an article like 12 (number), that's a good WP:WEIGHT debate for the talk page. Even in the historical criticisms above, OP acknowledges they've made improvements, and that doesn't even concern the main contribution of the project, which (again) isn't a history of the symbol in general but how it's used as a hate symbol. Where have they been wrong about whether or not a given symbol is a "symbol of hate"? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  Digging through the database, some dubious claims:

  • There's a lot of numbers in there, as previously stated. Some of those, like 14 and 88, definitely are white supremacist symbols. But others I feel are more dubious, and are sourced mostly to relatively obscure prison gangs. I feel like to be a hate symbol a symbol needs to be used enough by racists that it at least competes with the ordinary use of the symbol, which is not the case for the numbers 11 or 13.
  • They claim that ACAB, short for "all cops are bastards", can be a hate symbol. But I frankly don't think this is plausible: the term is used by a whole lot of anti-establishment groups, most of which are on the left, and any use by hate groups seems like a consequence of this broader meaning.
  • They claim that anti-antifa images are hate symbols. I say confidently as someone personally on the far-left that basically the entire American right and much of the American center is against antifa, often to a weird degree, so this is again a symbol that is used by hate groups to refer to a broader meaning and not a hate symbol itself.

  (Overall though, my verdict from picking through the database is that the ADL is a reliable source for whether a symbol is a hate symbol or not, even if they're not always great about the historical details. Notably there's nothing in here about pro-Palestine activism, which was my main worry.) Loki (talk) 21:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The closer I look at the database, the more errors I find. Seriously, to whoever wrote this junk: Have an expert come in for a few days focused on the database. It would resolve all your issues.

Many of these entries are uncessary and many necessary entries are missing. Those that do exist are riddled with issues. I know from personal experience that several scholars in my circle have reached out to even volunteer to correct the material for them. There is just no excuse for the many problems here but getting this right does not appear to be at all a priority for the ADL. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Given the indent, I presume this is a response to me (oops, sorry -- on second look it might be to Loki, in which case nevermind). Where are the errors related to relationship between these symbols and hate speech/hate groups, and who are the experts that have criticized it in that regard? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The more obscure a symbol is, the more useful ADL is as a source. With a common term like ACAB, we’d probably find better sources than ADL. With a Nazi prison gang, ADL would be a very good source for saying something like “it uses the number 12 in its tattoos”. I’d be wary of WP ever saying in our own voice “x is a hate symbol” because that’s not a statement of fact. But we might want to say “ADL considers x a hate symbol because of its use by y”. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean, that is what I mean: something being included in their database basically just seems to mean that somewhere, at one point, some group of people was racist, and that was one of the six things in their logo. That part is true, but it's really not clear to me that being "listed" is WP:DUE.

I am reminded of some time when a government agency (I forget which) made a list of warning signs that someone might be a domestic terrorist, loaded with all sorts of completely asinine nonsense like "doesn't post on social media", "wears a jacket in the summer", "has gotten a speeding ticket" etc. I mean, maybe if you are looking for the bomber in a crowd of people in the summertime and one of them is wearing a huge puffy jacket, they've got it under that, but this factoid really doesn't seem worth mentioning in jacket or summer or even really terrorism. jp×g🗯️ 22:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Reliable. A reliable source is not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective, according to WP:BIASED. Many NGOs, which are considered reliable, illustrate this point. ADL is clearly an opinionated source, for example, they openly say that "ADL works to support a secure Jewish and democratic state of Israel, living in peace and security with its neighbors" and "ADL speaks out when anti-Israel rhetoric or activism engages in distortions or delegitimizes Israel, crosses into antisemitism when it demonizes or negates Zionism, and uses anti-Jewish assertions and tropes". To be considered a reliable source, an organization is required to have good reputation for fact checking. When using *any* source, it's crucial to distinguish between opinion pieces and research, and to properly attribute opinions. Their reputation for fact-checking in research papers has been excellent for over a century; thus, relying on them for facts presents no issue. Editors should exercise normal consideration of controversial topics and consider using attribution where necessary. Claiming something is or is not a "hate symbol" is more a matter of opinion than fact, serving as an example of something that should be attributed if disputed. Marokwitz (talk) 05:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  So this part: "ADL speaks out when anti-Israel rhetoric or activism [...] when it [...] negates Zionism is the real problem – because this is a mission to curtail free speech. You can't really be civil rights group AND be such an openly politically biased entity that you actively go after individuals and groups for simply opposing your chosen political ideology. That's more than a little unhinged – more so even than the rest of its mission as a US (not Israeli) NGO that isn't registered as a foreign agent (FARA). And editors have pointed out numerous issues with the ADL's presentation of facts; there's a lot of not listening here. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Reliable also on Israel, Jewish, Muslim and Palestinian related topics Hi, so I read the materials that you guys wrote, very long read, and also researched and ADL actually looks a reallly important organization and I saw above what Vegan416 wrote on anti Zionism and antisemitism and I think Vegan416 is on to something. I also saw what Eladkarmel wrote on Elon Musk's Twitter attacks on ADL and that's really crazy and I think really proves how important ADL is. I also saw that the Alt Right attacks ADL and also the Alt Left which I think kinda proves ADL is critical. Also I also read about ADL fighting anti Muslim bigotry and also I read on their history of helping the civil rights movement, so I think these guys are really important in helping all minorities and I think that if ADL is taking such a big stand against racism and against antisemitism and is taking attacks from Elon Musk and alt right and alt left then they have to be a very serious organization. Also I think what Chess wrote about SJP and ADL in relation to it really explains a lot, I also don't understand why ADL's critic of SJP makes ADL unreliable. I mean I was really horrified by the sentences SJP wrote and I really think it makes sense ADL will critic SJP, I mean "artificial barriers of the Zionist entity", " glory to our resistance, to our martyrs", that is so crazy. I also saw what Marokwitz wrote and I think Marokwitz also has a big point.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Al Jazeera reliability

Very concerning incident this week surrounding AJ reporting and keeping on their website for more than 24 hours erroneous reports of rapes committed by IDF soldiers in Al Shifa hospital.

AJ quietly deleted all references to the supposed incident and has not provided any retraction. A former editor (and current AJ journalist) has come forward to provide context, but the organization has remained mum.

Keeping up this completely unverified story for a day, then removing without retraction is potentially in serious violation of RS standards. I understand AJ more often than not abides, but this is an egregious violation nonetheless, and well beyond any acceptable journalistic rules:

Reportage:

Times of Israel: Al Jazeera takes down video falsely alleging IDF rapes in Shifa Hospital

Haaretz: Al Jazeera Deletes Video Claiming Woman Was Raped by Israeli Forces in Gaza Al-Shifa Raid

New York Sun: Al Jazeera Says Its Story That IDF Soldiers are Raping Gazans Was Fabricated Mistamystery (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

This reportage all comes from sources with deep ideological biases and as such I'd question us taking them at their word that Al Jazeera isn't reliable. Frankly it'd make a mockery of WP:NPOV to deprecate Al Jazeera but not Times of Israel. Simonm223 (talk) 17:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You're evading the core point. Al Jazeera staff literally confirmed the retraction. This has nothing to do with the reliability of the sources provided, it's well attested beyond those three posts. Mistamystery (talk) 17:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

And you're evading my core point. That it'd be disingenuous to begin treating AJ as unreliable on the basis of this considering the multiple times that Times of Israel and Haaretz have reported IDF talking points as fact that later proved to be misinformation, often without retractions. Simonm223 (talk) 17:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

1. Please provide examples of IDF talking points that were published and later proven to be "misinformation", as opposed to later updating of information.

2. This is far more significant. This is direct reporting from what they claimed to be a verified source who was - in fact - completely fabricating the story. Mistamystery (talk) 17:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

How about the Jerusalem Post claiming a killed baby was a doll and then silently removing the story from their webpage? And no, al-Jazeera never claimed it was a verified source, that is completely made up. nableezy - 17:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Post appears to have made an announcement retracting and apologising for that story, which is more than Al Jazeera has done. I also note you’ve described JPost as JPost is generally closer to garbage than fine, so I’m not sure why you think saying Al Jazeera is no different to JPost is a defence of Al Jazeera. BilledMammal (talk) 17:35, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Because the Jerusalem Post actually said that this wasnt a baby, this was a doll and the evidence was fabricated, and all of that was a lie. Al-Jazeera only said that there is a witness saying that this rape happened, and that was true. Al-Jazeera later determined that person was not being honest, but they did not report as fact something that was a lie. Jerusalem Post did, and does often. Like here claiming there are confirmed images of burned and beheaded babies from October 7 (there is not). That story is still up for the record. nableezy - 17:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Wow, that story is still up. Unbelievable. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

How about? The argument above stays. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

They asked for examples of Israeli misinformation, I gave that. nableezy - 17:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/no-words-can-describe-the-suffering-horrific-testimonies-from-al-shifa/

"Al-Jazeera obtained horrific testimonies of Palestinians trapped inside the Al-Shifa Medical Complex in Gaza City, which has been besieged by Israeli occupation forces for the last six days."

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2024/03/361577/eyewitness-accuses-israel-of-raping-women-during-ongoing-al-shifa-raid#google_vignette

"Civilian Jamila al-hissi, who was trapped in a building near the health facility, in an interview with Al Jazeera reported that the IOF was, kidnapping, and killing women during their raid at the hospital.

“They raped women, kidnapped women, executed women, and pulled dead bodies from under the rubble to unleash their dogs on them,” she told Al Jazeera."

https://peoplesdispatch.org/2024/03/25/executions-detentions-and-sexual-violence-israels-brutal-siege-on-al-shifa-hospital/

"Al-Hassi’s testimony from Al-Shifa described how Israeli soldiers stripped a woman sheltering there and proceeded to rape her in front of her husband and other men, threatening to kill them if they looked away."

https://countercurrents.org/2024/03/eyewitness-says-israeli-soldiers-raped-women-before-killing-them-in-al-shifa-hospital/

"Eyewitness accounts are horrifying. Jamila Al-Hisi, a woman besieged in the Al-Shifa Medical Complex and managed to finally get out told Al-Jazeera the Israeli occupation soldiers are raping women and killing them."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240325-un-expresses-grave-concern-over-rape-of-women-in-gaza-by-israeli-soldiers/

"According to Al-Jazeera, reports have emerged of rape crimes committed by Israeli soldiers against women in Gaza during the Occupation army’s raid of Al-Shifa Hospital.

Jamila Al-Hissi, who found herself trapped in a nearby building, recounted that the Israeli soldiers were involved in the abduction, rape and killing of women during the raid of the hospital.

“They raped women, kidnapped women, executed women and pulled dead bodies from under the rubble to unleash their dogs on them,” she said."

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/03/operation-al-aqsa-flood-day-170-israel-assaults-al-shifa-nasser-and-al-amal-hospitals-in-one-day/

"According to Al-Jazeera, reports have emerged of rape crimes committed by Israeli soldiers against women in Gaza during the Occupation army’s raid of Al-Shifa Hospital.

Jamila Al-Hissi, who found herself trapped in a nearby building, recounted that the Israeli soldiers were involved in the abduction, rape and killing of women during the raid of the hospital.

“They raped women, kidnapped women, executed women and pulled dead bodies from under the rubble to unleash their dogs on them,” she said."

https://www.watanserb.com/en/2024/03/23/tragic-testimony-palestinian-woman-reveals-horrors-amid-gaza-hospital-siege/

"Jamila Al-Hessi, besieged in the vicinity of Al-Shifa Complex, said in a phone call with Al Jazeera on Saturday that the occupation forces burned and killed entire families."

https://en.abna24.com/story/1446410

"Al-Jazeera TV channel quoted the Palestinian Jamila Al-Hassi, who was besieged in the vicinity of the Al-Shifa Complex, as saying: “The occupation forces burned and killed entire families, and raped and killed women.”

Mistamystery (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea why you're citing other sources, what al-Jazeera reported was that Jamila Al-Hissi claimed these things, and she did. Al-Jazeera never reported it was true. nableezy - 17:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

What is the purpose of this list Mistamystery? These are all unreliable sources, I believe, quoting al-Jazeera. While we count use by reliable sources as evidence of reliability, I don't think we count use by unreliable sources as evidence of unreliability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

This was answered already in the chain. Not saying those sources are RS. A user was trying to claim - even based on RS sources provided - that the incident didn't happen. Was just showing further evidence of the reporting (as well as spread) Mistamystery (talk) 18:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

We’ve seen this before with Al Jazeera; in the last discussion I presented evidence of them declining to retract false claims about the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion after fresh information emerged.

This isn’t the behaviour we expect of a reliable source; we don’t expect them to be perfect, but we do expect them to be transparent and own up to their mistakes. I think it’s past time to consider Al Jazeera as "additional considerations apply", at least on the topic of the Israeli-Arab conflict. BilledMammal (talk) 17:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Here's NYT doing their own retraction of witness evidence that was up for far longer than AJ's (1 day). How awful, let's immediately put NYT on additional considerations apply list (sarcasm). Oh, and we've seen this before with NYT :) Selfstudier (talk) 17:30, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that’s the sort of behaviour we expect from a reliable source; a public retraction. If Al Jazeera had done that we wouldn’t be here now. BilledMammal (talk) 17:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Former managing director of Al Jazeera, Yasser Abu Hilalah, took to X to share that an investigation revealed the news to be fabricated and that the witness, Jamila Al-Hissi, had "exaggerated the details to provoke an emotional response" in an effort to draw attention to the violence in Gaza, particularly during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

Good enough for me...and we shouldn't be here now for the latest episode of how awful AJ is according to pro Israel editors, because they report witnesses saying bad things about Israel occasionally (unlike Israeli media which say bad things about Palestinians all of the time, every day, without any witnesses. Selfstudier (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Not for me. Al Jazeera needs to be making that statement, preferably on their own website - the New York Times story you linked is a case study in how a reliable source should respond when additional information reveals they were in error, while Al Jazeera is a case study in how a reliable source should not respond. BilledMammal (talk) 17:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Nope, that is a continuation of the crap story they put out in the first place on the subject, which they first off refused to retract. Selfstudier (talk) 17:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Even after all of its witness accounts have been either shredded or cast into significant doubt. So yeah, let's drag NYT before the jury first. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

They reported that somebody claimed this, which was true, and then when they determined it was false retracted the story. Thats what is supposed to happen. They did not say that it was true, only that there was this claim being made. And then determined it was false and removed the claim. That is precisely what a reliable source is supposed to do. That BilledMammal thinks they need to follow the Western sources on Al-Ahli Arab Hospital for a disputed story is interesting but also not all that relevant to anything here. nableezy - 17:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

That’s not what I said, and I ask that you stop continuing to misrepresent me on this.

And what should have happened is Al Jazeera publicly saying they got it wrong, rather than pretending it never happened and leaving their readers with a false impression. BilledMammal (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You said that they made false claims, when their reporting has not been determined false by anybody besides intelligence agencies of Israeli allies. I dont think Ive misrepresented you but feel free to clarify what al-Jazeera needs to have retracted that is proven false, and what that proof is. nableezy - 17:30, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The claim that Israel is indisputably culpable. That claim isn’t supported by the evidence and should have been retracted when additional information emerged, as genuinely reliable sources did. BilledMammal (talk) 17:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It is supported by evidence though, you just dont agree. Which isnt all that relevant, but when reliable sources disagree we attribute things, not just say oh this one must be wrong so they are not reliable. nableezy - 17:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it is definitely concerning, but as almost no source has been particularly good with respect to fact-checking during the conflict, I would suggest we wait how this plays out over the next few days. FortunateSons (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Further reporting:

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/syks8u1kc

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-793560

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/al-jazeera-deletes-fake-story-about-idf-rapes-in-gaza-hospital-j1uquwad

https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/al-jazeera-quietly-deletes-story-falsely-alleging-idf-raped-palestinians-in-gaza-hospital/

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-hamas-admits-women-not-raped-by-idf-at-shifa-hospital-following-al-jazeera-report

https://voz.us/al-jazeera-retracts-and-takes-down-its-rape-allegations-against-idf-at-al-shifa-hospital/?lang=en

https://www.mediaite.com/news/al-jazeera-removes-video-alleging-israelis-raped-women-in-gaza-as-former-managing-director-calls-claims-fabricated/

https://allisrael.com/al-jazeera-retracts-idf-rape-accusations-admits-story-fabricated-by-female-witness

https://honestreporting.com/damage-done-how-al-jazeeras-fake-news-harmed-israels-reputation-in-less-than-24-hours/

https://taarifa.rw/al-jazeera-israel-disagree-on-idf-rapes-in-gaza/

Mistamystery (talk) 17:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Tell us something new. Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Cites i24, complains about al-Jazeera lol. The originator of the propaganda about 40 beheaded babies, and you uncritically cite them and Free Beacon and Honest Reporting lol. nableezy - 17:44, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mistamystery: i24, really? Iskandar323 (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, as stated below, there was a user early in the discussion who was attempting to deny the incident happened at all. Links were provided re: breadth of coverage, not establishing additional RS. Never claimed they were. Mistamystery (talk) 20:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Ill repeat the pertinent parts here, because there is a bunch of misinformation being spread here. Al-Jazeera reported that a woman claimed that Israeli troops had raped a pregnant woman at al-Shifa. They included a video of that person saying this. They did not at all say that this has been confirmed or verified. When they determined it was not true, they removed the video. I havent checked their Arabic site to see if they reported on why they found the claim to be false, but no al-Jazeera did not claim that Israeli soldiers raped a patient at al-Shifa, they reported that somebody at al-Shifa claimed to have seen this. And that was and is true. And also, for the record, this was al-Jazeera Arabic, which we generally dont cite anyway, not al-Jazeera English. nableezy - 17:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

No, it was on Al Jazeera English’s live blog. On 24 March, Al Jazeera released an update on its liveblog entitled, "Israel forces raped, killed women during raid on al-Shifa, witness says." Al Jazeera's update used statements of a witness, Jamila al-Hissi, who stated that "They raped women, kidnapped women, executed women, and pulled dead bodies from under the rubble to unleash their dogs on them.”

On 25 March, Al Jazeera took down its video of Jamila al-Hissi’s statements but kept its written update posted when Times of Israel last checked. Former managing director of Al Jazeera, Yasser Abu Hilalah, wrote on X, “Hamas investigations revealed that the story of the rape of women in Shifa Hospital was fabricated.” Abu Hilalah reported that al-Hissi “justified her exaggeration and incorrect talk by saying that the goal was to arouse the nation’s fervor and brotherhood.”

It is problematic using live blog updates in Wiki articles. The content is hard to verify

here, rape story still up https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/3/24/israels-war-on-gaza-live-19-killed-as-israel-again-fires-on-aid-seekers?update=2794606

except now I have to go change the link in the wiki articles that are using this story, because those links no longer link to the rape story due to the nature of live update snippets updating and pushing down content. I had to web search for the story Wafflefrites (talk) 18:07, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You better click on the live blog link I just posted. The links to the story keeps changing!!!! Who knows if it changes again. How are we supposed to verify information in the future if the live update links no longer point to the story? Wafflefrites (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you archive it? FortunateSons (talk) 18:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know how to archive. Do I need to take a screen shot? Are there instructions on Wikipedia that you can point me to? I don’t like these live blogs…. They lack context. Wafflefrites (talk) 18:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You're right, AJE reported that the witness said this. What it says is

"Israel forces raped, killed women during raid on al-Shifa, witness says
A Palestinian woman who was trapped in a building near al-Shifa Hospital has told Al Jazeera that Israeli forces raped, kidnapped and killed women during their ongoing raid on Gaza’s largest hospital.

Jamila al-Hissi, who spent six days inside the besieged building before being forced out by Israeli forces, told Al Jazeera Arabic that al-Shifa was a “war zone”."

Which is all true,Jamila al-Hissi did tell al-Jazeera this. They did not report it as fact though. nableezy - 18:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

This may work better. The fact that they haven’t even silently retracted or otherwise corrected this claim that they now know to be false is extremely concerning; this is not the behaviour we expect of a reliable source. BilledMammal (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The sheer high emotional bombardment of an item that - at minimum - mere requested notice be made of a clear journalistic ethic violation - is telling enough, and reeks of a gang up. People need to cool their jets and get calm before they hit the keyboard.

This isn't about other sources. This is about Al Jazeera. They had a source on air and on their website (who they vetted prior to having on air) state on air that rapes were happening at the hospital, when they weren't. If they have a source on air for an interview, it's because they have determined their information to be factual. They're not just putting live mics in front of people without speaking to them prior.

The story then turned into a major story on its own and went both global and viral (as well as, apparently, having an on ground impact in Gaza itself, it further sources are to be believed).

Standard journalistic practice is for outlets to retract - officially, clearly, and publicly. Not their staffers off-hand. On their website (and in print in the good 'ol days), which did not happen here. Which is why notice was made. It's not controversial.

This is not a measuring contest between outlets, or a competition between Hogwarts houses. The outlets are not in an ethics race, and points are not added and detracted or exchanged. This post is about Al Jazeera and Al Jazeera alone. They platformed and published falsehoods that were spread widely and had immediate impact, and failed to properly retract. That's it and it's irrefutable. Mistamystery (talk) 18:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

And the additional links were posted because one of the editors doubted the incident even happened, not because they're reliable sources. Thanks. Mistamystery (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

No, they vetted prior to having on air is completely made up. They said that there is this witness that claims these things. Thats it. Earlier you said Please provide examples of IDF talking points that were published and later proven to be "misinformation", as opposed to later updating of information. and when that is provided you just wave it away. Al-Jazeera broadcast testimony they later determined was false and retracted it. nableezy - 18:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It's global standard practice to pre-interview people who appear live on TV shows. They don't just hand a hot mic to people and let them say whatever they want. Either way, the news source conventionally holds themselves accountable for what they allow to air. They don't exist to air speculation.

Also - I had asked for proven IDF misinformation - you referred to a JPost piece. Mistamystery (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Seriously asking for evidence that the IDF tells porkies? Even the mainstream press is reporting that as a fact nowadays. Selfstudier (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mistamystery: You haven't become aware of any instances if IDF misinformation unquestioningly repeated in Israeli sources in the past six months? Do you think that suggests a clear eyed view of the media landscape? And in this context, we're meant to go along with your take on Al Jazeera? Iskandar323 (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

What is this general attitude of "Al Jazeera can only be criticized so long as we discuss other sources" being spouted by people on this chain? There is a clear incident of a news outlet failing to vet a source before spreading contentious, false information - and then later failing to issue a retraction. That is the beginning and end of the matter. Please start separate chains if we are to assess other news outlets. Mistamystery (talk) 21:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The only purpose of the "notice", afaics, is to foment another useless discussion about nothing very much at all. Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Here is Middle East Eye. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mN1SRUx0R8&ab_channel=MiddleEastEye

Al Jazeera may have removed its video but Middle East Eye still has it on YouTube. Caption says “ Jamila al-Hissi, a Palestinian woman who was besieged for six days in a building in the vicinity of al-Shifa hospital, told Al Jazeera that Israeli forces raped, tortured and executed women inside the hospital.” with no mention of retraction or clarification on the debunked statements Wafflefrites (talk) 18:19, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, she did tell al-Jazeera this. The video is her telling al-Jazeera this. What they reported is true, that al-Hissi said this. nableezy - 18:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

They reported a witness who made statements that were later found to be false. Once the statements were found to be false, they didn’t update their audience. Using these types of blog reports with little to no context are no better than putting information you see people tweet on Twitter and pasting it into Wikipedia. Wafflefrites (talk) 18:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I dont even know if thats true, have you checked their Arabic website for any updates on the story? nableezy - 18:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

My issue is with the liveblog. The live-blogging is just like reporters tweeting info. The links keep changing making info difficult to verify and there is little context. I posted a link to Times of Israel above about a former Al Jazeera director saying that Hamas found the allegations false https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-report-alleging-idf-rapes-in-shifa-hospital-retracted/

The Al Jazeera English is still up https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/3/24/israels-war-on-gaza-live-19-killed-as-israel-again-fires-on-aid-seekers?update=2794606 Wafflefrites (talk) 18:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Wafflefrites: No pages should really be using live blogs long-term as sources. This is a WP:NOTNEWS issue as much as anything else. Because yes, live blogs are just a stream of off-the-cuff news and unredacted commentary. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:01, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Even if it is the live-blogging of a RS? Can you please share with me the Wikipedia link or policy that says this so that I can share in my edit summaries before I go reverting other users’ work? Wafflefrites (talk) 21:07, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The link you shared just says NOTNEWS. Al Jazeera is a RS, other editors are not going to understand why they can’t use this live blog thing. At least Times of Israel is also a RS, so in these cases I suppose at this point is just the burden of putting in other sources per SOURCESDIFFER, which is what I did when I found out the info had been debunked Wafflefrites (talk) 21:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

At a minimum, I think we need to declare Al Jazeera unreliable for attributed statements. They clearly make insufficient efforts to verify these statements, and worse they fail to retract them even after the statements have been proven to be lies - what other outright lies are on their website and now in our articles that they just haven’t bothered to retract?

To put it simply, we can no longer trust that Al Jazeera isn’t promoting disinformation with such quotes - if the quotes are due for inclusion then other sources will have reported on them independently. BilledMammal (talk) 18:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Thats nonsense, because what they attribute to al-Hissi is what al-Hissi said. News sources dont verify things they quote others saying. The NYT does not verify the quotes they include are true either, and sometimes they are later found to be false, for example here they are reporting that things that were said to them that they reported, without verifying, are not true. Should we not include quotes from the Times now? nableezy - 18:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The article you link shows the New York Times retracting a claim they now know to be false. The reason why Al Jazeera’s behaviour here is so concerning is because they aren’t doing the same. BilledMammal (talk) 18:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The original article remains with no retraction, including the claim they now admit is false. And this all happened in the last day, why wouldn't you allow al-Jazeera the months it took the NYT to determine something they quoted to be false the same deference? You wrote They clearly make insufficient efforts to verify these statements, how does that not apply to the NYT here? nableezy - 18:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Because Al Jazeera has already determined it to be false, they just haven’t publicised it.

The New York Times published an entire article that prominently says they were wrong; ideally they would have updated the original article as well, but they have met our expectations of a reliable source. Al Jazeera has not. BilledMammal (talk) 18:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Who's to say when NYT made this determination, how long it took them to make an article about it. But the relevant part here is you saying They clearly make insufficient efforts to verify these statements. Do you think other sources make sufficient efforts to verify statements that they quote? Thats the whole point of attributing a quote, you're saying I dont know this is true but they say it is. nableezy - 19:03, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

As I said, and worse they fail to retract them even after the statements have been proven to be lies. The blind faith is concerning, but not why we can no longer consider them reliable - we can no longer consider them reliable because they now know the claim is false, but have failed to retract it or issue a correction. BilledMammal (talk) 19:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It's been a day, and did you check their Arabic site for any updates? nableezy - 19:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I haven’t seen any. If you have, please link it - and regardless, an update on just their Arabic site would be insufficient given this story was also published (and still is published) on their English site. BilledMammal (talk) 19:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• Al Jazeera is no better than RT. It is Qatari state media and should be deprecated as a propaganda organ. Coretheapple (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  If above is all there is, no reason to do anything at all, never mind deprecate. No evidence of anything systemic. Selfstudier (talk) 18:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  This discussion began two hours ago. Coretheapple (talk) 19:51, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Al Jazeera as Qatari propaganda and Hamas mouthpiece is one of the major issues that renders it necessary to dispose of as a reliable source, like RT, such as the debacle the other day of informally retracting a false story about rape at Al-Shifa, which is journalistically unethical, after Hamas denied the story. Another major issue is peddling antisemitimic conspiracy and their blatant distortion of historical facts, like posting Holocaust denial videos, claiming that Jewish employees of 9/11 targets were informed of the attacks beforehand, etc. All this can bee seen on the Al Jazeera controversies and criticism. SalomeofJudea (Maria) (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  This discussion appears to be becoming some sort of race to the bottom to come up with the least substantiated idle aspersions to make about Al Jazeera as possible. It is far more revealing about the editors making the aspersions than it is about Al Jazeera. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• Note should be added in WP:RSP. Quietly deleting false information does not comply with the editorial standards used by reliable sources. Al Jazeera cannot and should not be considered a reliable source for topics related to Qatar and the Arab/Israeli conflict. According to [65], it has a "Mixed" rating for factual reporting due to failed fact checks that were not corrected and misleading extreme editorial bias favoring Qatar. It does not qualify as a high-quality source due to direct ownership by Qatar and extreme editorial bias, including being subject to Qatari laws that prohibit any criticism of the government. It should be considered a partisan source in topics related to Qatar, the Arab/Israeli conflict, and minorities in India, and its statements should always be attributed in such topics. Marokwitz (talk) 19:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Media Bias Fact Check is itself not considered a WP:RS. And more generally, reliability is based on a source's broad reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; one incident doesn't generally change a source's reputation until / unless there's broad or sustained coverage to indicate its impact. As previous discussions have determined repeatedly, Al Jazeera has strong WP:USEBYOTHERS and reasonably high-quality coverage describing them as reliable; and right now, the only criticism of them for this seems to be from similarly WP:BIASED sources, which obviously isn't going to be enough to change a source's reputation or assessment on its own. --Aquillion (talk) 19:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

That was a "stealth edit" and is unethical. Coretheapple (talk) 19:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

This Arab News article is likely relevant, as is this National Review article. BilledMammal (talk) 20:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Does anyone know what the outcome of these lawsuits was? I’ve been unable to work it out, but it may be informative as to whether we can trust Al Jazeera on various topics of interest to Qatar. BilledMammal (talk) 20:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Arab News, owned by the Saudi royal family, is certainly not a reliable source on Al-Jazeera or Qatar given their long standing geopolitical rivalry. And the National Review lol. nableezy - 20:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Let me make sure I’ve understood you correctly. Arab News is not reliable on Qatar due to it being owned by the Saudi royal family, and due to Saudi having geopolitical interests in regards to Qatar?

If I have understood you, why aren’t you applying the same standard to Al Jazeera? BilledMammal (talk) 20:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia instituted a blockade of Qatar with one of their demands being that al-Jazeera be shut down, a blockade that was active at the time of that article. If Qatar does that to Israel then feel free to raise that here. But unless you want to rule out Israeli sources talking about the Palestinians I dont think the point youre trying to make is actually one you should be trying to make. nableezy - 20:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

And Qatar is a major funder and ally of Hamas.

As for Israeli sources, which are controlled by the state? And I remind you, I didn’t raise this line - you did, when you dismissed Arab News for reasons that if applied equally would require us to dismiss Al Jazeera. BilledMammal (talk) 20:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, the reasons are not the same. Saudi Arabia engaged in an act of war against Qatar, and demanded the shuttering of al-Jazeera. And I wouldn't cite al-Jazeera for material on the Saudi royal family for the same reasons. And for the record, all the major Israeli news papers get funding from the state and are subject to the state military censor, so that distinction you think you are making isnt quite as strong as you think it is. You have argued that a lobby organization with ties to the Israeli military reprinting an actual piece of propaganda from the Israeli military is a reliable source (here), but want to act like because Qatar has provided funds to the government of Gaza that they are ruled out somehow. Well, ok, you can make that argument if you want, but I dont have to pretend it is a serious one. Arab News, especially while the Saudis were engaged in hostile acts against Qatar and demanding that al-Jazeera be shut down, is not a reliable source for Qatar or al-Jazeera. nableezy - 20:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

As far as I know, it was not an act of war.

Regardless, your entire argument seems to be that you think Saudi’s opposition to Qatar makes Saudi news sources unreliable on Qatar, but Qatar’s support for Hamas has no impact - and you have not justified this beyond thin assertions that Saudi’s opposition is more significant than Qatar’s extensive and long-term support.

I suggest you focus on the substance of the articles I presented, rather than trying to discredit them with arguments that a reasonable individual could equally apply to Al Jazeera. BilledMammal (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

A blockade is an act of war. That is very basic. And no, that is not my argument. My argument is that a state engaged in an act of war against another state shouldnt be taken as a reliable source about that other state. And Arab News is an arm of the Saudi state, much moreso than al-Jazeera. And no, a reasonable person cannot apply that to al-Jazeera, as Qatar has not engaged in an act of war against Israel or any other state for that matter. As far as the substance, I did that when I said lol. nableezy - 20:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM. The Kip 21:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
My understanding is that Saudi didn’t implement a blockade but instead closed their borders, which some sources characterise as a de facto blockade. You could characterise it as an act of war - but you could equally characterise providing billions to Hamas as an act of war against Israel. But we’re off topic here and you’re clearly not going to consider the sources that raise issues with Al Jazeera; I’m going to step back from this line of discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 20:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC) Except Israel was on board with Qatar providing those funds lol. But sure, you can consider whatever you like to be whatever you like it to be. nableezy - 20:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC) Yeah, Netanyahu encouraged that funding. Was he committing an act of war against Israel? Iskandar323 (talk) 21:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• The Al Jazeera Media Network is not a reliable source. Look, as many nowadays know, it's no secret that the Al Jazeera Media Network is owned and operated by the government of Qatar, which is an authorian monarchy: it's ultimately just the Qatari royal family persecuting (and executing) whoever they want and for whatever reason they deem. This inconvenient reality is something Al Jazeera avoids talking about unless absolutely necessarily (AJ+ for example attempts to explain this away by comparing this situation to that of the BBC being owned by "British Taxpayers", lol—similar attempts at dodging this incredible situation can be found on other Al Jazeera sites). No matter how Al Jazeera wants to dress sit up, in all cases the buck stops—quite literally—with the Qatari royal family. Time and time again we see the ideological biases and preferences of the Qatari royal family creep into Al Jazeera reporting. I see no reason why we should not instead be using better sources than those owned and operated by the Qatari royal family. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Al-Jazeera is routinely cited by other reliable sources, this is just a series of baseless assertions with no evidence or even relevance. nableezy - 19:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  • Al Jazeera also also routinely receives criticism for pro-Qatari slant, and the fact that it is basically an arm of the Qatari royal family has come up here many, many times. My advice: Find a better source, ideally one not funded and operated by a notorious dictatorship best known for its outrageous human rights abuses, or expect inevitable pushback. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

    Unsupported assertions dont merit responses. We determine reliability based on, for example, WP:USEBYOTHERS, not on, for example, a random person on the internet aka a Wikipedia editor disliking a source. nableezy - 20:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

We determine reliability by wide range of parameters, as you know. Additionally, Al Jazeera is a hot topic in WP:RS discussion spaces specifically because of the fact that it's funded and operated by the Qatari government. That's a fact and is far beyond 'just not liking it'. How often do we see other 'reliable' sources pushing for example holocaust denialism? :bloodofox: (talk) 20:08, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I missed this Holocaust denial allegation. Two points: First, the video was removed and the two journalists suspended, which considerably mitigates this count against reliability. Second, this was for the Arabic version of AJ+, not published on an actual Al-Jazeera news platform. I think it's already established consensus that AJE is more reliable than the AJ Arabic and that AJ+ wouldn't be used as a source on WP. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Another effort to downgrade AJ after the most recent effort failed to do so and nothing has changed since then, this incident is an almost irrelevancy, possibly worth a mention in the relevant article, nothing more. Selfstudier (talk) 20:01, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is already covered in the current RSP entry. --Licks-rocks (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• The standard for moving the reliability needle on a source as widely used-by-others, scrutinized, and ultimately praised by both peer-reviewed publications and press organizations as Al-Jazeera (and especially Al-Jazeera English) is peer reviewed literature that refutes the pre-existing literature. See my comments from this discussion for links and quotes to relevant sources. Arguments that do not include that standard of evidence are wasting people's time, and the frequency with which these lackluster attempts occur form a basis for arbitration enforcement measures. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• Two comments:

1. Many users need to read WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:OTHERSTUFF. This is a discussion of Al Jazeera. Comments about Times of Israel or Jerusalem Post are irrelevant to the matter of Al Jazeera's reliability.

2. Proposing to downgrade Al Jazeera's reliability based on one single incident looks wildly exaggerated. I suggest this discussion be closed as no change to how we treat Al Jazeera. Jeppiz (talk) 20:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

No Times of Israel and JPost published a story that said Al Jazeera’s story was false per a statement from a former Al Jazeera director and a Hamas investigation. Al Jazeera basically published someone’s lies about witnessing rape, and other sources such as Moroccan News and Middle East Eye repeated it. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Al Jazeera’s story is still up, as is Middle East Eye’s and Moroccan News. The former director had the integrity to call out the news source Wafflefrites (talk) 20:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Mediaite and i24 aren't exactly reliable sources, and I personally wouldn't trust a website called "AllIsrael" to report objectively on things regarding the conflict. The Kip 20:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• I myself have had concerns at times regarding Al Jazeera's reporting on the conflict, but that's moreso been due to my own admitted bias rather than journalistic malpractice on their part. While such reporting as above is actively problematic, I'm not seeing much of a reason to fully downgrade; remember, like the recent discussion on the New York Times, generally reliable does not mean always reliable. I don't think we need to do anything here, besides obviously not use info from a retracted claim/piece; at most, I could see dropping AJ's Arab-Israeli reporting to WP:MREL/"Additional considerations," while keeping the rest at GREL (like how we've divided Anadolu Agency's reporting between general topics and CTOPs at WP:RSP), but even that feels like a slight stretch unless a stronger case is built. The Kip 20:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I would support that, with a note that they don’t always make retractions after falsehoods have been identified. In terms of a stronger case, take a look at the Arab News and National Review articles I provided above. BilledMammal (talk) 21:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  That isnt a stronger case, thats two highly partisan pieces making claims that serious sources have ignored. nableezy - 21:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  Both of those sources are WP:MREL, with one (National Review) being a source I simply don't trust and the other (Arab News) itself being government-backed, as well as published in the midst of the Qatar diplomatic crisis. I'd need to see something on the level of BBC or WaPo for a proper case. The Kip 21:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think I agree with this assessment most, I too have seen issues but nothing catastrophic. I think post-war a discussion on a slight downgrade on I/P specifically is reasonable, but this conduct is at most a facet. FortunateSons (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not seeing the issue here. The claim was directly attributed to a specific person who made the claim. The person's claim was debunked. Al Jazeera honestly weren't even required to pull the articles at that point, many other outlets haven't when they've published attributed claims that were debunked. I do think the comparison to the Jerusalem Post and specifically the "dead child is a doll" claim to be relevant, especially since their reporting wasn't attributed to a person, but the outlet directly making the claim.

Regardless, this thread seems to be largely based on nothing. Though I am noticing certain highly emotional and seemingly POV responses from some editors against Al Jazeera, like BilledMammal above. I think this discussion is more revealing on editor conduct than anything else. Silverseren^C 21:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

What's a continual problem on Wikipedia is that editors with the strongest POV and bias are the editors who flock to highly controversial topics like the Israel/Palestine conflict. They are simply unable to see things from a neutral perspective. This is too much drama for me but my read of it is this has been discussed already, and nothing has changed and this whole conversation is a waste of time. AusLondonder (talk) 21:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

On another note...The National Review? "Most editors consider National Review a partisan source whose statements should be attributed." The idea we should get rid of Al Jazeera because of an opinion piece in a right-wing American magazine is simply unbelievable. AusLondonder (talk) 22:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Amen to that. The Kip 22:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

This is not the first or the only problem with AJ's reporting of the IP conflict. The source clearly has a bias, which is noted in the RSP entry and is described by RS [66]. Their journalist moonlighted as a Hamas commander, or at least was very much embedded in Hamas militia [67].

It doesn't mean that all their reporting is unreliable but we also should take their biases into account, for example when determining the weight of a certain event, or when there is an exceptional claim.

Now we fail to do this. AJ is the single most used source for Israel–Hamas war article accounting for >10% of all citations, and often their reporting is presented in wikivoice. Alaexis_¿question? 22:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The IDF is a reliable source now? nableezy - 22:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I take what they say with a grain of salt but I haven't seen any response to the evidence they provided. Has AJ explained what their journalist was doing with a rocket launcher? Alaexis_¿question? 07:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Those following this war are probably aware that the IDF rarely provides anything even remotely akin to evidence. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

At the top of the page it says "Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports." Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that when people depart from that, by posing more general questions about a source for example, it often does not go well? Isn't an RFC the appropriate tool for this kind of thing? Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:09, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Here’s the Wikipedia article that it’s used in Al-Shifa Hospital siege#Misinformation on rape allegations

I have balanced it out with a Times of Israel article finding. Originally, the article section and title was much worse https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Shifa_Hospital_siege&oldid=1215351572#Mass_rape_claim_made_in_Arab_and_Iranian_media

I actually did not question the Al Jazeera source. I only knew to question and started searching when a third editor put up a maintenance tag here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Shifa_Hospital_siege&oldid=1215487636#24_March Wafflefrites (talk) 13:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The article section is much better now thanks to that third editor’s maintenance tag and The Times of Israel’s additional reporting on the accidental misinformation that was in the live update and then repeated by sources like Moroccan News, Middle East Eye, Mondoweiss. Actually rereading it, it seemed the first editor also question the original source’s content and but posted it anyways. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to downgrade or adjust their reliability, other than perhaps to add an additional disclaimer about its close ties to the government of Qatar. We already caution the source as partisan on Israel-Palestine issues, but I've not seen anything to suggest they are outright unreliable on the matter. Toa Nidhiki05 17:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Toa Nidhiki05, the problem is that this notice doesn't work. As I said earlier, this is the single most used source for the Israel-Hamas war article, with predictable consequences. The problem with AJ is usually not outright falsehoods but rather what it chooses to cover and whose voices it amplifies. When it writes "according to X, the forces of Y did Z" I'm pretty sure that they are not lying, but many other sources would not report it without further corroboration. Still, as long as it's green on RSP, editors feel that it's good enough for Wikipedia. Alaexis_¿question? 22:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Editors feel that it is good enough because it is good enough. The characteristic you describe of selective information publication is common to all news. This is the basis of bias. You present AJ's choices as if these are unusual, when this is par for the course for all media. But the grosser bias throughout this conflict, as now well documented, is the anti-Palestinian bias in most Western media, which has been breathtakingly appalling. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It also ignores that Times of Israel is cited 81 times, compared to al-Jazeera's 83, Jerusalem Post 11 times, Ynet/Yedioth Ahronoth 20 times, Haaretz 20 times and so on. Israeli sources are cited considerably more than Arab sources. And it takes a special kind of boldness to say as long as it's green on RSP, editors feel that it's good enough for Wikipedia when that same user makes a comment like this about CAMERA while attempting to use it and sources of that quality regularly. nableezy - 23:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Eh, I don't remember myself using CAMERA actually but that doesn't really matter. The problem is not that the sources originate from Arab countries but that the said countries have a terrible record when it comes to free speech and naturally their reporting is influenced by the agenda of their governments.

I'm not saying it should never be used, rather that it's now used way more that it's justified and thus its bias seeps into Wikipedia. Alaexis_¿question? 07:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

We don't judge sources by their country of origin, but by the track record of quality and accuracy in their content. This baying for Al Jazeera's blood because it comes from Qatar (ignoring its decades-long track record of quality reporting) is becoming McCarthyite. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Let me know if you’d like your memory jogged further. nableezy - 10:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to downgrade AJ based on this. Generally reliable sources are not always reliable so one or two errors does not add up to evidence of general unreliability. We should avoid news blogs and avoid attempting to immediately put every single thing reported in the news into articles, but we already have policy for that. Reporting on I/P is fraught with bias, so we need to triangulate reportage, with AJ being one of the strongest sources not biased in favour of Israel. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:13, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Is there a Wikipedia policy that specifically says newsblogs should not be used? or is it softer wording like they should be avoided? Many of our I P articles are extremely “newsy” with a “Reactions” section with quotes from commentators from various countries. Plus there are a lot of I P articles lately that use the Al Jazeera liveblog. I did take a look at some of the older links though, It seems the links stabilize, but are not archivable.

I think the issue might not be Al Jazeera, but overuse of its liveblog and quotes from commentators in the liveblog Wafflefrites (talk) 17:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

No, WP:NEWSBLOG merely says be cautious. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 18:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that’s what I thought. I wasn’t going to go around mass reverting other people’s work without a specific policy saying that you cannot use liveblogs. Plus, the some of the liveblog info most likely could be verifiable if you dig around for other sources… it would just be a lot of work replacing and finding better sources. But, yes, some of the I P articles that use Al Jazeera may actually be using the daily/hourly reported snippets and sound bites. I am not a fan of Al Jazeera using commentators and video taping them, and taking it out of context though without further investigation. I am glad that a proper witness investigation was done by Hamas later though to figure out what was going on. Wafflefrites (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Reliable. At least as reliable as the New York Times, and my comment on that outlet (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_430#The_New_York_Times) applies just as well to Al Jazeera: "The test for a generally reliable source is not "never fucks up ever"." Daveosaurus (talk) 06:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The test is not "never fucks up ever", but it is "when they fuck up, and they know they fucked up, they correct it". The issue with Al Jazeera is they don't appear to be doing the latter. BilledMammal (talk) 07:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Except, as Nableezy and others have exhaustively reiterated, they didn't even "fuck up" - they released content that was clearly attributed from the start and did not translate the claims from that source into their own voice. They then removed it a day later. This is unlike the NYT, which took garbage testimony from Zaka and others and translated it into unsubstantiated claims of "systematic" sexual violence and left it up for a month without even a whiff of internal scrutiny. Then, when external pressure arose, it begrudgingly raised questions over its original story (though not its fallacious reporting), and began an internal inquest into who ratted it out. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

They published a lie, and they continue to fail to retract it.

The New York Times published a statement from a medic who may have been mistaken about the location or who may have lied, and they wrote an entire article retracting it.

Both were attributed, but that wouldn’t justify the New York Times not retracting it, and it doesn’t justify Al Jazeera not retracting it. BilledMammal (talk) 08:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Saying that someone says something is never going to be a lie. Publications retract falsehoods that they make in their own voice. They are not required to apologise on behalf of false witnesses. Anyone can perform this criticism. I understand that this was something in a live blog. We avoid using live blogs anyway, in part because they're not fully fact-checked stories, and it's ludicrous to imagine that media outlets will go back and add notes and updates live blogs retroactively. Has the NYT anywhere published a piece explaining how Zaka put out a pack of lies? – as demonstrated by basic residency figures. No. They've merely hinted that a subsequent video 'undermines' some of the bunk that was put out. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

For us to trust sources we need to know they are responsible. Publishing quotes that contain information they know to be false without telling the reader that the information is false is irresponsible and contributes to the spread of misinformation. Further, it can result in us including falsehoods without informing our reader that the information is false.

Here, Al Jazeera had behaved irresponsibly, by failing to do the bare minimum of retracting the quote. Ideally, they would go beyond this like the New York Times has done, and publish an article explaining what happened, but given their bias I am not expecting them to do so.

Given your comments about the live blogs, can we at least agree to note on RSP that Al Jazeera’s rating does not apply to their live blog? BilledMammal (talk) 08:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

That's unnecessary. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS and live blogs is the newsiest news. They should rarely if ever be used as permanent sources on any pages. We also have WP:NEWSBLOG, which is very clear that news blogs should be used with caution due to the looser fact-checking involved. So it's already in the guidelines, as well as being common sense. So the main complaint here is that they didn't issue a formal retraction online or in print about a live blog entry. To this, I would ask: do outlets typically formally retract live blog entries, or do they just edit their live blogs? Can you provide a historic example of a news outlet specifically issuing a retraction for information from a live blog that never made it into an article? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:21, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

do they just edit their live blogs The issue is they haven’t even edited their live page; it’s still up.

As for NEWSBLOGS, it’s not clear that applies to Al Jazeera’s; it talks only about pages labelled “blogs”, but Al Jazeera’s is labeled a "live page". BilledMammal (talk) 10:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Where's it still up? A few links have been posted, but they don't go anywhere useful. And yes, it is clear what a live news feed/blog looks like. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Here; I also linked it above.

It’s not clear to me that such live feeds are what NEWSBLOGS is talking about; it appears to be referring to something closer to opinion columns (host online columns they call blogs) BilledMammal (talk) 11:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

So as Nableezy notes, all it says is that the woman told AJ "X", which is still true. It's not in their voice. What do you want them to do? Falsify the record and erase it, as if the woman didn't make that statement, and they didn't record it? These blogs close at the end of each day and it's not typical for them to be edited after the fact – again, that would be falsification of the timeline of reporting. The video has been deleted directly from the media library rather than by means of editing the live blog. The testimony meanwhile does not already appear in any actual written-up news or analysis, so nowhere does AJ claim to have validated or corroborated the claim, and so there's nothing to update or correct. How many statements do you think exist out there of IDF spokespeople claiming they're not targeting civilians? Obvious garbage, but again, not a problem because they're attributed statements. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Whatever the reason they don't update the record, their fact that they don't do so is a very good reason for us not to use the live feed.

In the same line as the issues with this update, they often put things in their own voice that every other reliable source attributes - evidence that for stories where their biases and Qatars interests apply they are too willing to take statements at face value rather than consider them critically. For example, in this update, they say that Israeli forces killed a boy during a raid in the West Bank; all other reliable sources attribute to WAFA. Even aside from reliability, this is reason we should be careful about use the live feed as the sole source for a claim; it's far too likely to be WP:UNDUE. BilledMammal (talk) 05:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:DROPTHESTICK, ffs. Looking more and more like WP:BLUDGEONING. Selfstudier (talk) 12:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Worth noting that when Blinken trotted along to Qatar to ask Al Jazeera to dim their coverage of the war "no specific offending examples of the station’s output were given" – so the US had nyada and couldn't even muster up a proper complaint. The political problem with Al Jazeera is its incisive reporting, due to it being "one of the few news organisations with a functioning bureau in Gaza", and its shining of a torch where Israel and the West would prefer it didn't. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Not sure "functioning" really captures the current situation. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

If anything, that AJ has only made a couple of decisions even vaguely resembling slip-ups that anyone thinks worthy to write home about in six months of very isolated war reporting is bloody miraculous, and stands to its credit. It's difficult to verify truth in a war zone. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I just wanted to revisit the initial incident this thread was raised in relation to, having looked into it further. The OP is assuming that the AJ reporting was false because a former AJ employee tweeted that Hamas had investigated the allegation and found it to be false, as reported (slightly inaccurately) by the Times of Israel. (So anyone who has argued on this page that Hamas or the ministry of health it controls is by definition unreliable shouldn't be giving credence to the refutation, given it is sourced only to Hamas.) There have been other broadly credible social media accounts also saying it was false,[68][69][70] along with the alleged victim's brother.[71] None of these give a source for their claims and none have been reported in reliable sources. Other broadly credible social media accounts have in turn questioned the denials, noting that Hamas don't investigate such incidents and giving reasons why Hamas and the brother would have an interest in the story being refuted.[72][73][74] Again, not reported in reliable sources. In short, even if Al-Jazeera had said the allegations were true (which they didn't), we cannot categorically say that it's not true, so this is in no sense evidence against AJ reliability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Can't argue with the logic. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Generally reliable, which means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean they never fuck up. When the story was determined false, they took it down. What would we have them do? Leave it up? If we're going to start banging on about outlets getting things wrong and judging them by that then we'd have to judge The New York Times for propagating the mother of all lies about weapons of mass destruction and I don't see anyone beating that drum. This is a non-starter. TarnishedPath^talk 10:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2 (Al Jazeera)

The Al Jazeera overall is not a reliable source.
It's never a good idea to label the entire news source on any topic as "black or white" as there are many nuances and those need to be understood. Many news agencies might be biased in some shape or form but it's key to what extent. One can’t have an entirely unbiased religious network. I'd limit the areas where they can be used as RS and leave for the other areas. But if we need to make one decision for any news on any topics from this agency then overall it's not a reliable source.

• Firstly, it's essential to recognize the distinction between the two versions of Al Jazeera: the English version tailored for Western audiences, often emphasizing victimization to solicit sympathy and funding, using 'Israel' and supporting gay rights, and the Arabic version propagating a narrative of religious strength and the power of Muslim leaders, referring to Israel as 'the Zionist Regime' and neglecting gay rights. This dichotomy resembles that of the Russian propaganda channel RT.
  
• Secondly, while any news agency may err occasionally, the frequency of such errors and their handling of misinformation when discovered are crucial factors. In my observation, Al Jazeera often fails in this regard.
  
• Thirdly, based on my experience, Al Jazeera generally provides decent coverage of events beyond the Muslim world and Israel. However, their reporting on the Israel-Palestine relationship and Muslim politics is heavily biased. News related to Qatar, particularly during the football World Cup or concerning their relationship with Hamas, is also biased. Moreover, they are unreliable for topics concerning Shia Islam and tend to exhibit a strong bias when determining alliances or adversaries.

Let us take a look at a few examples:

1. At times, they may initially propagate false information, only to retract it once the damage is already inflicted. Regrettably, they often omit issuing an editorial to acknowledge and explain the misinformation they disseminated. One of the examples is from within last 10 days when they have published a lie that claiming woman was raped by Israeli Forces in Gaza Al-Shifa Raid when she was not. Aliza Licht did a good job explaining this lie here. Here is another coverage of it here. Even the terrorist organization Hamas has said that the Al Jazeera has lied. The outcome? "the confession from Al Jazeera's own ranks was nothing short of cinematic, as former director Yasser Abuhilalah disclosed through a tweet the findings of a Hamas investigation: the harrowing tale of sexual violence within Al-Shifaa Hospital's walls was a pure fabrication, designed to stir the pot of national fervor—a needless endeavor given the already high stakes and suffering in the region".
2. Another style of what they do is just to show only one side of the story. Al Jazeera has not covered murders committed by the Hamas terrorists but often makes up rapes by IDF which didn't happen. Al Jazeera is funded by Qatar which funds Hamas that has the goal to destroy Israel. Why would anyone expect any reliable information from them?
3. This news outlet sometimes provokes its audience. For example, in 2012 Bangladesh news outlet The Daily Star quoted MA Hasan, a war crimes researcher: "They [Al Jazeera] want to provoke instability in the country”. The National Human Rights Commission(NHRC) Chairman Dr Mizanur Rahman had the same opinion: “It's audacious and a kind of provocation. This type of conclusion can inspire the opponents of the trial.” I didn't find an apology written by Al Jazeera.
4. They sometimes create false statements which influence the political situation. For example, in 2021 there was an "Al Jazeera Report" which had among other info the following: "The Government of Bangladesh has learnt of a false and defamatory report titled “All the Prime Minister’s Men” by Al Jazeera news channel. The report is nothing more than a misleading series of innuendos and insinuations" and I didn't find an apology written by Al Jazeera.
5. They tend to present assumptions as facts. Take a look as an example at this article.
6. During the hospital incident, they promptly issued a false statement alleging that over 500 people died due to an Israeli rocket attack, presenting assumptions as facts with a biased viewpoint. They failed to include qualifiers such as "allegedly" or provide sources for this claim. Furthermore, their dissemination of false propaganda persisted as the lead story for several days, seemingly aimed at influencing readers' perspectives, but in reality, it tarnished their own reputation in my eyes. It was only three days later that they acknowledged the possibility that it was misinformation.
7. In the initial days of the Israel-Hamas conflict, while sourcing information, I found Al Jazeera's reporting troubling. They claimed that Israel initiated the war while completely overlooking the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists, which actually triggered Israel's defensive response in Gaza. This type of biased reporting is reminiscent of tactics employed by Russian authoritarian leaders, but it fails to accurately depict reality.
8. According to Professor Mordechai Kedar, an expert in the Arab media and culture from his 25 years in IDF intelligence and subsequent work as a researcher at the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar-Ilan University: "Al-Jazeera keeps spreading lies, but since they speak to people with a poker face, everyone thinks they are telling the truth". One of Al-Jazeera’s distortions, now parroted by some elements in the foreign press, is that Israel has murdered 45 journalists in the last 22 years.
9.  As some of us remember, in 2010 exposed that the  Qatari government is manipulating Al Jazeera’s coverage of certain event types. I didn't find an apology written by Al Jazeera.
10. Al Jazeera's manager Mahmud, who oversaw Broadcast Operations and Technology at the network  made the following statements to it's employees: “whoever supports Israel should die a fiery death in hell”. How could such outlets be reliable?
11. They have additional issues with antisemitism. "For instance, it has dabbled in blatantly antisemitic conspiracies, such as the erroneous claim that Jewish World Trade Center employees were warned of the events of 9/11 beforehand, therefore implying that Jews (or Israel) bore at least some responsibility for what happened (if you need a reminder: Qatar, which controls what is published in Al Jazeera, has deep financial ties with both the Taliban and Al Qaeda)", and many other problems which can be seen this article.
12.  Al Jazeera published a fake news article that photos of an Israeli baby burned by the Hamas terrorists were fake and "millions of people saw it and became a victim of fake propaganda".
13. Al-Jazeera shared videos showing fake injuries (and sometimes fake deaths) of Palestinian Arab civilians in an intention to demonize Israel. And then I didn't see any apology from them. Should we allow such facts in our wikipedia articles? We should if we want to spread lies.
14. Al Jazeera has painted an incorrect picture of life in Gaza.
15. Instead of airing the proper spectrum of news Al Jazeera [75] a documentary on the Israeli lobby in Washington.
16. Al Jazeera was artificially inflating fake news about alleged Arafat poisoning.
17. According to Bloomberg: The lawmakers also are asking the Justice Department to investigate reports that Al Jazeera infiltrated nonprofit organizations. Their letter calls its broadcasts 'anti-American, anti-Semitic, and anti-Israel' and urges regulators to scrutinize the network to determine whether it violates U.S. law".
18. "Al Jazeera has reported that Denver Broncos quarterback Peyton Manning and a number of other professional football and baseball players have been linked to an Indiana anti-aging clinic that provides its clients with human growth hormone, among other drugs... one of the men who Al Jazeera relied on for its bombshell documentary is saying his previous statements were untrue". I am not sure if targeting someone with a last name of  Zimmerman was a coincidence, but has Al Jazeera apologized or corrected its misrepresentation?
19. Then there was a story of Kleinfeld and the ‘anti-Semitic’ Al Jazeera docuseries on US Jewish lobby". 
20. They have fabricated a story that had human growth hormone mailed to his home while he was recovering from neck surgery.
21. And example of how Al Jazeera  tweaks the information. And here is example.
22. is one of the inside stories on how Al Jazeera is misrepresenting the news. Do we really want this to be a reliable source?
23. More than 20 people just in a single office have resigned from Al Jazeera  in protest over bias.
24. Jazeera staffers were relieved that the email exchange had been leaked, "because it exposed the station's biased and unprofessional coverage Syria.
25. Dr Anwar Gargash, UAE Minister of State for Foreign Affairs: “us be clear, the way Al Jazeera channel has dealt with the statement of Shaikh Abdullah Bin Zayed was not a professional blunder; It was part of a smear campaign [by the media against the UAE]”.
26. "fact, Al Jazeera seems to have missed the last five years of life itself when every major terrorist incident has been found to have some Pakistan connection. When the whole world has its eyes open, Al Jazeera’s are shut".
27. 2020: Justice Department says AJ+, a media outlet backed by the royal family of Qatar, engages in “political activities”.
    2021: "National Security Division made the determination that AJ+, a subsidiary unit of Al Jazeera Media Network, must register under FARA because it engages in “political activities” on behalf of Qatar’s government and is designed to “influence American perceptions” of “domestic policy,” among other reasons".
    2023: "Al Jazeera Must Register as a Foreign Agent of Qatar".
28. Bangladesh Federal Union of Journalists (BFUJ) has demanded to impose a ban on the broadcast of Qatar-based Al Jazeera in Bangladesh accusing it of serving an anti-national vested group's interest by tarnishing Bangladesh's image at the international level.
29. has banned Al Jazeera from reporting from inside the Gulf state citing “breach of media norms”.
30. Israel is in the process of banning Al Jazeera.
31. Not only Israel, but many muslim countries see issues with Al Jazeera propaganda. For example, "and Saudi Arabia have already shuttered local Al Jazeera offices, and both the channel and its affiliated websites have been blocked in Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and Bahrain".
32. closed Al Jazeera office due to the issues with hoe the information was provided.
33. According to the BBC since at least 2014 (!) "criticism of Al Jazeera comes as readily from ordinary people as from Arab governments". And there are earlier news from 2011.

These examples I've provided are just the tip of the iceberg, as I didn't spend a considerable time to compile them. My intention is to shed light on the fact that relying blindly on this news outlet as a credible source for any topic is not advisable. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 03:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this work; it is very comprehensive. In particular, the Wikileaks cables demonstrate that we can't trust the claim that they are editorially independent of the Qatari government, and that we should not consider them generally reliable for topics related to Qatari interests. BilledMammal (talk) 05:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

To add to this, regarding the lawsuits I mentioned above:

1. According to Shannon High-Bassalik, a former senior Vice-President at Al Jazeera, Al Jazeera abandoned journalistic objectivity to advance a pro-Arabic and Middle Eastern Point of view. For example, she said that during the 2014 war they were explicitly instructed to favor the Middle Eastern Point of view and paint Israel as the villain. She also said this goes beyond things that can merely be considered bias and into the realm of conspiracy theory, such as that producers were told that much of the Arab World believed 9/11 was a CIA plot, and that they should keep this point of view in mind when they decide the tone and content of their reporting - the consequences of this can be seen in their publication of material denying the holocaust, but we have to expect that it also came through more subtly in other publications. Unfortunately, the accuracy of these claims were not considered in court, who ruled the arbitration clause was binding. I have been unable to determine the outcome of the arbitration.
2. According to Matthew Luke, a former employee at Al Jazeera, a member of senior management was antisemitic and sexist, saying at one point "whoever supports Israel should die a fiery death in hell" and that Israeli employees were replaced with Palestinian ones without basis. It was settled out of court; I have no been able to find the specifics. This speaks less to reliability that the High-Bassalik suit, but it does raise serious concerns about significant bias at Al Jazeera that should be mentioned in the RSP rating - at the least we should attribute all claims related to Israel.

BilledMammal (talk) 06:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

We very recently had an RFC on this source and this game of ask until you get the answer you want is disruptive. We have a consensus on the reliability of Al-Jazera, and using sources like Arutz Sheva to question that is laughable. Give it a rest, sheesh. nableezy - 09:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nableezy: I can't remember a recent RfC on Al Jazeera; can you link it? BilledMammal (talk) 09:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 421#Al Jazeera - 2023 nableezy - 09:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nableezy: I don't think that was an RfC, but if you are convinced it was I note it closed as "no consensus"; this would require us to downgrade Al Jazeera from "generally reliable" to "no consensus". Let me know if you are convinced that it was and thus serves as an impediment to an RfC on Al Jazeera within the near-future. BilledMammal (talk) 12:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

No consensus to change, not no consensus. nableezy - 12:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Generally reliable: let's not confuse AJ Arabic controversies with its English-language outlets. Also no news outlet is immune to mistakes; their retraction of that story shows that they clearly they have journalistic standards in place and are enforced. As for the other sources questioning AJ's reliability, most are affiliated with Israel, including its own national media outlets and US-based pro-Israel advocacy groups such as HonestReporting. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• I don’t support any attempt at changing the status of AJ based on this thread. All I’m reading is back-and-forth “I like Al Jazeera because crap also exists” vs. “I don’t like Al Jazeera because other crap exists”. The evidence presented is almost all biased, dubious and anecdotal. Add the Israel-Hamas war into this mess and you have a recipe for a complete lack of legitimate consensus. Dronebogus (talk) 16:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Many journalistic outlets appear to be at their worst in relation to the ongoing conflict, but from what I can see they appear to be generally reliable, and none of the supposed evidence presented here convinces me otherwise. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Independence of Al Jazeera

The question of whether Al Jazeera is independent from the Qatari state has been mentioned several times, but not considered in detail. Al Jazeera is owned by Qatar, and it is operated by its royal family, with the chairman of Al Jazeera being Hamad bin Thamer Al Thani.

In "The menu of autocratic innovation", Morgenbesser discusses innovations designed to maintain autocratic power in a changing world; one of their examples is Qatar, arguing that they are utilizing their control of media to systematically target "citizens, civil society activists, opposition members, and foreign policymakers" to maintain the "façade of accountability without allowing the practice of it" - they offer the facade of impartiality and objectivity but not the reality of it.

In "Al-Jazeera, Qatar, and New Tactics in State-Sponsored Media Diplomacy", Samuel-Azran argues "that the Qatar–Al-Jazeera relationship represents a third form of media diplomacy, the hybrid model, that allows the state to regain control over the messages transmitted to global audiences. Under the hybrid model identified here, a state-sponsored station operates independently in routine affairs, which gives it the credibility of a privately owned station, and reverts to state-sponsored-style broadcasting only during a crisis involving the state." Samuel-Azran and Assaf expand on this in a later paper, arguing that it "promote[s] its national interests and successfully manage[s] its image in the international realm by smart initiatives including sponsoring hybrid public–private initiatives such as Al Jazeera". In other words, for matters unrelated to Qatari interests, we can consider it independent and reliable - but not on matters related to Qatari interests. This is supported by scholars like Lynch who argue that Al Jazeera serves the interests of Qatar, and Khatib who argues that it is a Qatari tool for public diplomacy, and that its position shifts when Qatar needs it to.

This is further supported in "Characteristics and Experiences of Contemporary Media Diplomacy: A case study of Al Jazeera in Qatar", Ying and Dong argue that Al Jazeera is used by Qatar to enhance its ability to set agendas, including as part of Qatar's diplomatic negotiations and they explicitly reject the claims of Al Jazeera's independence; "Therefore, although Al Jazeera, which is financially supported by the Qatari royal family, claims to adhere to the principle of press freedom, in fact its international news agenda-setting and reporting tendency are indirectly serving the goal of Qatar’s diversified and balanced foreign policy." In "Two Tales of One War: Understanding the Media Coverage of the Yemeni Civil War in Saudi Arabia and Qatar", Duman and Yulco agree with this, arguing that "Al Jazeera is the “soft power tool” serving Qatar’s political agenda"

It appears that scholarly sources do not consider Al Jazeera independent on matters of concern to the Qatari state - as such, we shouldn't either. I think our treatment of certain Turkish outlets would be a good model to use here. BilledMammal (talk) 12:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

See Archive 10 of 11 discussions on AJ, where this issue was addressed, nothing has changed since. Selfstudier (talk) 12:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It's hard to see how a media outlet located in an absolute monarchy with extremely limited press freedom can be independent, but it's good to have scholarly sources confirming it. Alaexis_¿question? 12:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It's called an editorial team and board. Al Jazeera recruited a strong team of ex-BBC and other staff a decade ago, and they've gone from strength to strength since. These aspersions based on ownership are like some sort of neo-Orientalist attempt at shoring up systemic bias. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The comparison to Turkish state media seems inappropriate: the reliability of sources like Anadolu Ajansi and TRT has been disputed because they print actual misinformation on behalf of the Turkish state (e.g. [76] stating without attribution that there are "FETO camps" in the US and that this organization staged a coup in Turkey in 2016; no reliable source repeats these claims). The same has not been demonstrated of Al Jazeera vis a vis Qatar. Meanwhile, if the charge is that AJ is a "soft power tool", you can find abundant scholarly monographs that make the same claim of BBC vis-a-vis the British government (e.g. [77], [78], [79]). Wright et al. is particularly illustrative in its analysis of AJ and BBC as essentially being peers, with Xinhua and RT being examples of lower-quality tiers of state-backed media. Really, complaining about "soft power" as being incompatible with RS status just belies a misunderstanding of both our relevant guidelines and the nature of professional journalism on a fundamental level. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you are equating equal things here. For example, when Vercellotti talks about "soft power" in "The BBC and Soft Power at Home: Promoting Democracy Through The Archers", he is talking about independent decisions made by the BBC that promote British culture and values - specifically, the promotion of democracy and political engagement in Britain. In contrast, when Duman and Yulco is talking about Qatar using Al Jazeera as a "soft power tool", they are talking about Al Jazeera having limited independence and being used by the Qatari state to advance their interests.

Further, that was one source from several I presented; even if you don't find that aspect concerning the others are far more direct about Al Jazeera lacking the independence that we have hereto assumed it had and being controlled by the Qatari state to advance their interests and maintain the power of the Al Thani family.

In regards to the Turkish media, I was referring to WP:TRT, not AA. However, I do think a more bespoke solution would be appropriate: Additional considerations apply for topics where the Qatari government has an interest; editors should carefully consider whether inclusion is WP:DUE, and if included should generally attribute. Otherwise, generally reliable, including for statements by the Qatari government. BilledMammal (talk) 15:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Just like how the BBC is often very bad at covering domestic politics when it isn't in the government's interests – like last Friday, when the BBC just skipped over what was likely the largest anti-Gaza war protest in London to date. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

If you have concerns about the BBC then I encourage you to do a similar analysis to what I have done here and open a discussion - if similar issues exist I will support action there as well. However, lets not derail this discussion by focusing on a different source. BilledMammal (talk) 16:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The point is that you are merely pointing out the same issues of media bias that are universal to almost all outlets. None of it is particularly pertinent to a discussion on reliability. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

No other source that we consider generally reliable claims to be independent only for research to reveal that this is false, and that instead of being "impartial and objective" they are used by a nation state in a hybrid model to advance their interests and maintain autocratic rule. BilledMammal (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON, this is getting really tiresome. Selfstudier (talk) 17:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC

References

References

SuriyakMaps on Twitter

SuriyakMaps is a Twitter/X account created in March 2017 which publishes maps of the Syrian civil war, the Russo-Ukrainian war, and other ongoing conflicts. Please see https://www.twitter.com/SuriyakMaps/ to become more familiar with the source.

SuriyakMaps was the subject of a July 2021 RSN discussion, where editors agreed it was not RS, citing its anonymity and unclear methodology. The small number of editors involved in the discussion and their apparent lack of experience with Syria war articles has since been used to delegitimize that conclusion, so I hope to establish a firmer consensus here.

The use of SuriyakMaps and other social media war-mapping accounts like it has proliferated over the years, with a contingent of editors defending its use on the grounds of its apparent accuracy and prior use on Wikipedia; for example, see February 2021, April 2021 1, and April 2021 2. A frequent proponent of SuriyakMaps told me here that several years ago, there was local consensus on Syria articles to consider this account RS. I have not been able to locate such a discussion, so at this time I admit I do not understand why it is argued that this account should constitute an exception to WP:RSPTWITTER.

In a recent discussion on the Syrian civil war article, editors agreed that a map which credited SuriyakMaps was not acceptable for use on that article, invoking WP:RS and WP:SPS. There continue to be several dozen maps across Wikipedia which credit SuriyakMaps in their file descriptions on Wikimedia Commons. I am opening this discussion after boldly removing those maps and having been reverted.

Is SuriyakMaps an acceptable source for the maps that appear on Wikipedia articles? Thank you for your time. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 01:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Not reliable on Wikipedia. Reliable when citing ongoing conflict map files on Commons due to lack of sources. Ecrusized (talk) 10:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:RS would tell us this is not reliable at all. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely unreliable per WP:UGC, WP:RSBREAKING, WP:RSPTWITTER and (judging by the content of some of the other tweets from the account) WP:PARTISAN. Jfire (talk) 23:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Was discussed several times at the height of the Syrian civil war and general editor consensus (among those who were following the conflict and were familiar with the source, as well as due to a lack of other reliable sources) was he is a reliable source and thus was used as an RS, both for map changes and map generation (wasn't used for citations of texts). I have also checked his postings, and he has shown to be a neutral source, who has been attacked recently (in regards to Ukraine) as being pro-Russian when reporting Russian advances and as being pro-Ukrainian when reporting Ukrainian advances. Thus I agree with Ecrusized, reliable for citing ongoing conflict map files on Commons. EkoGraf (talk) 10:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Please direct us to those discussions. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 15:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I have made a number of searches and find nothing of such a discussion|s. Regardless, there is the matter of WP:CONLEVEL and a local consensus does not override consensus reached in a broader community discussion. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I would be hard pressed to find the discussions since they took place almost seven years ago, discussions on similar issues took place on a variaty of Syria-related articles. In any case, I remember it was not just a local consensus, uninvolved editors were called in as well, since there was a lot of heated debates between pro-rebel, anti-rebel and neutral editors. In any case, I said my piece. EkoGraf (talk) 13:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Any discussion on Suriyak likely would have mentioned Suriyak by name. A search for "Suriyak" or "SuriyakMaps" across all Wikipedia namespaces returns 140 hits (about half are simply links to this RSN discussion). There do not appear to be any robust debates on Suriyak like the one described above, but I'm sharing it in the hope that the results assist other editors in locating what we're trying to find.

If the discussion where Suriyak was declared RS remains unlocatable, it probably should not hold any weight in present-day discussions. Relying on one editor's memory is insufficient justification to ignore all the RS policies this source seems to violate. Regards SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Looking through those results, I see:

• The prior RSN discussion, where consensus is that Suriyak is not RS.
• The current discussion on Talk:Syrian civil war#Infobox_map, where consensus is that Suriyak is not RS.
• A mention of Suriyak in Talk:Taliban insurgency#RfC on the Taliban insurgency situation map, which closed with a consensus that a map sourced to a similar anonymous Twitter account was not RS.
• Talk:Operations Claw-Eagle and Tiger#Result field, another editor pointing out that Suriyak is not RS.
• Template talk:Yemeni Civil War detailed map/Archive 2#Twitter, another editor pointing out that Suriyak is not RS. The opposing editor fails to refute the argument.

The trend here is clear, and does not support EkoGraf's contention that there was some discussion somewhere that reached a local consensus contrary to all of these discussions. And even if it had, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE apply. Jfire (talk) 19:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Like I said, I stated my opinion on the source, same as @Ecrusized:, and I don't really care how this discussion further continues/ends. As for wheter you doubt me or not regarding if there was a discussion which accepted the source, again, I don't really care. My part was only to mention there was one a long time ago. Wheter the source is accepted as RS, non-RS or no consensus, doesn't matter that much to me since I haven't been using the source for years. Best regards! EkoGraf (talk) 21:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Suriyak has his reliability issues, but in general is an okay source to refer to, I check his postings, I think it is okay to use his maps, but also to reference other reliable map users if possible alongside him. Alhanuty (talk) 02:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Published Master Thesis

Is this Published Master Thesis a reliable source?

https://digitalcommons.winthrop.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1151&context=graduatetheses

It has been published in several Scholarly websites and thus can be considered a master thesis with significant Scholarly influence and a reliable source. Researcher1988 (talk) 14:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I think a PHD would be the minimum standard. Selfstudier (talk) 14:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

But it was published in various Scholarly websites. WP:RS states that master thesis with significant scholarly influence can be considered reliable. Researcher1988 (talk) 14:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

So, I will confess that I am generally wary of Universities' digital commons collections, as it is usually unclear exactly what the editorial control and publication guidelines are. For me, at least, I would need more indicia of reliability before I would call a source like this reliable. But also, even if we were to decide this were reliable, a digital commons source would in no way make a showing that a source was WP:DUE for any given article. I have no problem with a Masters Thesis in theory, but I am not yet seeing it here. Can you show us the scholarly websites in question? As ever, if consensus goes against me, no worries. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 14:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books/about/Reflections_Across_Religions.html?id=7Npf0AEACAAJ

https://network.bepress.com/arts-and-humanities/history/islamic-world-and-near-east-history/ Researcher1988 (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

So, the second of those is really just another digital commons source, suffering from the same problems as the initial--in fact, it looks more like an aggregator than anything else. The first is interesting, because it seems to imply it was actually published as a standalone book, but looking closer, it seems like the digital commons content has simply been indexed by Google, maybe? The stock thumbnail and sort of generic entry leads me to believe this is the case, but if someone with more knowledge of google and/or book indexing wanted to weigh in, I would be grateful. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I should add that even if we were to cross the bridge of reliability (which I don't think has happened yet), I still see no evidence that this source would be WP:DUE for inclusion anywhere. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I would suspect that there is a reasonable amount of material on comparative theology across those three religions that came from full professors. What is the reason for wanting to include this piece in specific? Simonm223 (talk) 15:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

the article has some new approaches to the subject. Researcher1988 (talk) 15:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Then it would become a matter of WP:DUE - perhaps we could wait and see whether this author's career leads to any significant academic discourse on the subject rather than rushing to include a Master's thesis just because it's novel. See WP:RECENTISM. Simonm223 (talk) 15:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It has been published in several Scholarly websites: what does that mean? Generally, a work is only published once. Probably you refer to the fact that it is available on more than one academic repository, but that doesn't say anything about the quality of a work or its impact. Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, using an MA thesis as a source is perfectly ok, but only considering due weight. One way to measure due weight for mention in a WP article is to check if the thesis has been cited in other academic works like peer-reviewed book as journals. A search on Google Scholar (which is very broad in its inclusion of citations, even from blogs and other non-reliable sources) tell us that Heckert's thesis has not been cited anywhere yet. Why should we as a tertiary source cite it then? –Austronesier (talk) 15:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

One way to measure due weight for mention in a WP article is to check if the thesis has been cited in other academic works like peer-reviewed book as journals. this is exactly what I was going to say. If an MA thesis is widely cited then it would be considered reliable, and it inclusion due. But if that's not the case then it's unlikely that it should be included. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I would generally oppose the use of either a masters or even PhD thesis. Both are works that are published within a single institution. They don't have external review the way a typical conference or journal article would. I would strongly favor finding largely the same content in journal articles by the same author. Springee (talk) 15:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Disagree here, a PhD study that has led to an award has been supervised and awarded by relevant academics. Therefore we can guarantee a degree of quality (as long as the awarding body is reputable). If we don't accept PhD theses we are left with next to nothing on articles on some ethnic groups and languages.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I would concur that a doctoral thesis is far different as far as due weight from a masters thesis. This is especially relevant when you consider that some doctoral theses may later become key texts for seminal academics. Examples include Difference and Repetition and Discourse, Figure. Simonm223 (talk) 15:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

A few dissertations are worth citing but they are the exception rather than the rule. I did rely significantly on one when doing my own. However and as an example, most claims that someone might cite from my thesis are better cited to the journal papers I authored during my research. The actual thesis simply assembled the parts into a single document. The journal papers are the real meat of the work and were reviewed by people outside of my institute. In general Wikipedia treats journal articles as a top quality source almost by default. Dissertations and theses are generally treated as someone less that a journal article unless it can be shown that it was used by others. I agree with that. Another way to look at, a journal article that cited only other journal articles (in addition to describing it's own research) wouldn't raise an eyebrow. If that same researcher published a paper that only cited dissertations/theses would seem quite odd. Springee (talk) 18:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I would echo what everybody else is saying. It might be reliable, but it is unlikely to be WP:DUE. Masters theses can be used carefully in badly sourced areas, for example fieldwork with indigenous groups in linguistics and anthropology tends to get considered, especially in cases where the author gets published later on. But even then, attribution and "sticking to the facts" rather than the author's opinion/interpretation is in order. What is the exact claim you wish to source? Boynamedsue (talk) 15:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• To clarify, it hasn't been published, in Wikipedia's meaning, at all: what the OP is presenting is merely an electronically stored repository copy, as every institution keeps nowadays. It is a submission "in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of MA', not accepted and published.
  In other news, doctoral theses are RS when the university a respected one, as they go through a form of collective review by the candidate's peers. This takes the form, often, of a viva voce. ——Serial Number 54129 15:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia's definition of published is not that (and is really specific to our purposes). And by a literal (not field-specific technical) definition of peer-review and editorial oversight any degree thesis has that too. This may include the oral defense as well, depending on the program, but the written thesis always has some oversight. "When the university is a respected one" -- this is not necessarily aligned with whether or not a particular academic department, and a candidate's advisory process, is rigorous.

  Generalized discussions about theses (should you want to change existing guidelines) belong at WP:SCHOLARSHIP -- otherwise this board's job is to apply those guidelines. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Fair point, we literally have a written guideline there which outlines our policy.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Doctoral thesis is the bar for a reason and even that is a very low bar... As a rule of thumb I would say that anything from a master's thesis which is actually important enough to be in an encyclopedia will have been noted by a more reliable source, so don't use X's master's thesis but if a full scholarly paper later says "X argued that..." citing the thesis then you've got a clear path to inclusion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• If it actually did have significant WP:USEBYOTHERS that might make it usable (although it might make more sense to just cite it via those), but I'm not actually seeing it? Google Scholar shows no citations to it at all. What exactly do you mean by "published in several Scholarly websites?" Simply being hosted on some academic websites isn't enough, since those can be fairly in discriminate when it comes to theses. All that indicates is that it was published, and most masters' theses would pass that low bar - it doesn't address the problems that WP:SCHOLARSHIP discusses. Basically, if you want to use it you need to find high-quality sources discussing and relying on it specifically, not just hosting it. --Aquillion (talk) 17:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• Coincidentally, I'm currently researching an African preacher who has very little biographical information about him but just enough for inclusion on Wikipedia. Would it be appropriate to use a master's thesis for basic biographical facts? Has been cited by Christianity Today, but not widely cited otherwise. link (biography starts on numbered page 4)❤HistoryTheorist❤ 04:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

verywell Health on the spam blacklist

Alright, folks, got an interesting question for you all: Should the website "verywellhealth.com" remain on the MediaWiki spam blacklist?

I was trying to use it as a source for the article Myolysis; I found their article on the procedure ("Myolysis: Everything You Need to Know") to be approachably written, but more importantly, not making any extraordinary claims, nor at odds with other reliable sources - seemingly passing WP:MEDRS for at least limited use. However, I was informed by edit notice that the site is currently blacklisted, for Spam reasons.

Looking into the history of the listing, I'm not sure I agree it should be blacklisted. According to WP:BLACKLIST, "blacklisting a URL should be used as a last resort against spammers"; it's recommended to try page protection or user-blocking first. However, in the case where this website (and its family of sites - "verywellmind.com" and "verywellfamily.com") were first blacklisted, only 4 users were noted to be spamming it: 3 brand-new accounts, and one IP. It seems like that case could've been stopped with some user blocks. But, the site was blacklisted, just 1.5 hours after the 3 reported users were blocked [80] [81] [82].

These sites remained blacklisted for a long while with no discussion, until these 3 discsussions [83] [84] [85], all of which were opened by Manifestation. The GENERAL SUMMARY I got from those threads was:

• Verywell is probably marginally reliable, and useful for uncontroversial medical information, subject to considerations laid out at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Other sources
• However, the site is popular and prone to spamming

It was recommended that the site get requested to be whitelisted selectively where it might have legitimate use.

So, considering the site at large doesn't seem to fall afoul of WP:MEDRS, and (as Newslinger pointed out in one thread) is popular enough that blacklisting causes a substantial amount of collateral damage by making it more difficult for editors to use this source correctly, I feel like this site should be removed from the Blacklist.

Is there anything I'm missing? Other considerations with how/why Wikipedia might blacklist popular sites? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 19:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there actually is something you're missing. There are *four* Verywell sites. Three of them are spamlisted, completely by mistake. When I requested this be corrected, an abusive admin manipulated everyone to keep them banned. When I called him out on it, he further harassed me by reporting me to ANI. The closing admin of that thread falsely claimed that I never presented a need for linking to Verywell (I did). The Verywell sites are not spam sites and have never been spammed. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 21:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Look, I read all those old threads, and I came to a similar conclusion you did regarding the sources. But that level of heat isn't necessary here, in this thread. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I read through those old threads and I can appreciate your frustration. I'm wondering, does the LinkReports verywellhealth subpage that you linked on your ANI no longer update? I'm only seeing reported attempts from 2018-07 through 2019-11. SamuelRiv (talk) 14:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

In February 2024 I participated in Request to not use the spam blacklist to block non-spam sites, which failed. In February 2023 I made a request that the Breitbart Spam Blacklist be removed, which failed. My negative experience makes me sympathize with Manifestation but not be hopeful. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Part of the issue with Breitbart is it was deprecated before being blacklisted. In your push to get it un-blacklisted, many users countered that it wasn't a good source at all, so why bother. It does seem that using the spam blacklist to disallow use of non-reliable sources seems a bit like crossing wires... but in the case of sources so poor they've been deprecated, the end result is the same. Wikipedia doesn't allow citations to those sources.

In the case of the Verywell sites, I never saw a strong consensus to rate these sources poorly. On the contrary, there seemed some consensus that they were marginally reliable. So why they remain blacklisted is a mystery to me. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@PhotogenicScientist: Well, some Wikipedians believe that popular press sources (Psychology Today, ScienceDaily, Men's Health, Woman's Day, etc.) should *never* be used, especially on medical topics, and that other sources should be found. WP:MEDPOP discourages their use, but also states that some of their articles can be of high quality.

I attempted to use Verywell twice. The first was while writing a small paragraph at Remission (medicine) about the term No Evidence of Disease (NED). Verywell has a medically-reviewed article about it with some general info. I couldn't cite the article, because the site is banned.

The second time was while creating ICD-11. Verywell has a peer-reviewed article that summarizes the changes made in the ICD-11 compared to the ICD-10. I couldn't cite it, it's banned.

Several other Wikipedians, with a lot more experience than I have, attempted to cite Verywell over the years, but couldn't, due to false spamming accusations. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 07:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

If you want to use a link to a site blacklisted for spamming you need to go to MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The wheels of justice grind slowly... here's hoping they at least grind fine. I've made a request there for the one article of theirs I'd like to use. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

About WP:MEDPOP, it does say that popular press "sometimes feature articles that explain medical subjects in plain English", and to "use common sense" to evaluate the quality of each individual article from sources like this. That guideline also recommends: One possibility is to cite a higher-quality source along with a more-accessible popular source. So there is a legitimate use case for citing sources like verywell in tandem with more scientific, scholarly sources. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:03, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned, some Wikipedians believe that only those scientific, scholarly sources should be used. But I do agree with your comment. Lower quality refs can be used as a supplement to 'invisible' sources, i.e. books that are not searchable, papers that are behind a paywall, and other refs that are not easily accessible. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 17:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Is MEDRS required to trump report that Havana syndrome may be linked to Russian espionage?

A joint investigative report by 60 Minutes, The Insider and Der Spiegel linked Russian GRU Unit 29155 to Havana syndrome. This report was subsequently covered by a wide array of reliable sources [86] [87] [88] [89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99]. Some editors are currently engaged in an edit war on the page, claiming that only medical sourcing can be used to cover the claims in the article, or in the "causes" section of the article. FailedMusician (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Some editors are currently engaged in an edit war ← would that include you would you say? I don't think this is a correct characterisation of the dispute, or this the appropriate venue: nobody is contesting these sources are reliable for what they say. This is not a MEDRS issue (that's another dispute on the page), it's more a POV/weight issue. Bon courage (talk) 02:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Editors in favour of inclusion in Adding the new investigative report include Endwise, Redxiv, Gtoffoletto, Thornfield Hall, Chase1635321, TinyClayMan, Running dog59, Edittlealittle, BootsED, LuckyLouie, GreenC, Machinarium and DolyaIskrina. Even Simonm223 and Slatersteven who largely opposed, agreed to inclusion. Yet you remove it twice citing WP:ONUS [100] [101]. FailedMusician (talk) 02:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You have your view and novel way of counting noses, and have reverted stating that consensus is required for exclusion. But that is not a matter for this noticeboard. Bon courage (talk) 02:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted this enormous deletion of sourced content. Does this need to go to AN/I? Geogene (talk) 02:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and also for a sockpuppet check against RandomCanadian, or one of those other accounts that twisted MEDRS on the lab leak article. FailedMusician (talk) 02:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Deleting journalistic sources discussing geopolitics because they're not MEDRS? That's something that's been done in Wikipedia before, hasn't it? Geogene (talk) 02:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not happening here; that's a straw man to set up MEDRS as the villain of the piece. MEDRS only applies to WP:BMI as been repeatedly said, but there are other issues with the WP:NOTBMI parts of the article, particularly on over-reliance on long runs of primary sourced material. Bon courage (talk) 02:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, what about WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD? Just because something is primary is not an automatic deletion. Geogene (talk) 02:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not 'automatic deletion', it's considered deletion. Articles need to based on secondary sources then, yes, primary ones are useful to build on that foundation. But the trouble with this article is that it has primary foundations while the (available) secondary sources are not used. We even have strong MEDRS (as has been discussed on the Talk page). Bon courage (talk) 03:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

RandomCanadian, or one of those other accounts that twisted MEDRS on the lab leak article ← that's niche wikiknowledge to be familiar wish. Incidentally, this[102] is an interesting non-response to a question on your user Talk page. Bon courage (talk) 03:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This whole issue needs the dispute resolution noticeboard. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Here are several further attempts you made at deleting the content [103] [104] [105] [106]. I realise that this doesn't belong on this noticeboard, but I'd prefer to address the MEDRS issue than be goaded into whatever it is you're doing. FailedMusician (talk) 02:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The MEDRS issue is another one. One would have thought in a page variously tagged for over-length, primary sourcing. etc. Actually doing something about it would be welcome! Bon courage (talk) 02:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Bon courage, my concern with your edits was that you were removing information that you personally stated you disagreed with, and then cited MEDRS, OR, and primary sources as the reasons why you were removing them despite consensus on the talk page towards keeping it. BootsED (talk) 02:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

you personally stated you disagreed with, ← I don't think so. Evidence please? Bon courage (talk) 02:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Several comments of yours:

• "Object to inclusion. This is just weak newsy junk. Would need some decent/respectable WP:SECONDARY coverage to be due, especially given the fringe/science aspect to this stuff. Bon courage (talk) 09:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC)"
• And a WP:FRINGE one too. When RS says this "syndrome" probably doesn't exist we really should not be giving rolling coverage to whatever latest credulous clickbait silliness is in the news. It's like reporting Bigfoot sightings. Wikipedia needs to be a bit better than that. Bon courage (talk) 11:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
• We would need good WP:MEDRS, not commentary pieces in dodgy or non-pertinent journals. Bon courage (talk) 05:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
• The page is stuffed full of crap, yes. Anything insufficiency sourced needs the chop. Bon courage (talk) 05:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

You've made clear that you believe these sources are "weak newsy junk," the "latest credulous clickbait silliness," filled with "dodgy or non-pertinent journals" and have been using WP:MEDRS, OR and primary sources as reasons to continually remove them despite editor consensus towards keeping them. As FailedMusician stated, "The 2019 JAMA report and commentary should also have not have been deleted. They are part of the narrative of events. Calling NYtimes "unreliable" is just ridiculous. FailedMusician (talk) 02:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)"

So yes, I do believe you have a personal bias against certain RS that you personally disagree with. However, I will retract my accusation, as I do not believe going down this rabbit hole is worthwhile. BootsED (talk) 03:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the retraction. I don't know what I think about the "information" in the sources, but I have firm views on what constitutes good and bad sourcing. Bon courage (talk) 03:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Among the content you deleted, In March 2024, a joint investigation by 60 Minutes, The Insider and published claims of Russian connections through state agency GRU Unit 29155. Among the core claims were that senior members of the unit received awards and political promotions for work related to the development of non-lethal acoustic weapons; and that members of the unit have been geolocated to places around the world just before or at the time of reported incidents. How is that content MEDRS? Geogene (talk) 02:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That is nothing to do with MEDRS (you've been suckered into to the framing of this dispute), and this 'Insider report' is the subject of discussion the article Talk page with different editors arguing for and against inclusion. I don't think is due without decent WP:SECONDARY coverage. Bon courage (talk) 02:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Implies that the health symptoms were the result of "non-lethal acoustic weapons" which is a WP:FRINGE claim. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 02:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You are significantly mischaracterizing my position FailedMusician. Please stop. Simonm223 (talk) 12:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if the underlying reports are making medical claims, they need to be held to the standard of WP:MEDRS, especially when the claims they are making are extraordinary. See WP:MEDSCI, WP:MEDASSESS, and WP:MEDPOP. There is no justification to list such sources under the causes section of an article on a medical condition. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 02:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The section is titled "possible causes," of which one section is listed as "Hostile adversary attack." There is no claim that there is/is not a "true" cause of H.S. No claim is being made if the information is true or false. Wikipedia should not be in the business of deciding what is true or what is false. We merely report on what multiple RS on a topic state. Multiple RS on this topic have stated this possibility on H.S. so it is beholden on us to at least mention it in the article about H.S. The article is not solely a medical article, there is much about geopolitics on it as well. As FailedMusican stated, multiple editors were in favor of keeping and including this information. BootsED (talk) 03:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Multiple editors have also questioned its inclusion - however, I don't dispute that RS have reported on the 60 Minutes report, but think it should go in the chronology section, as otherwise it heavily implies that "non-lethal acoustic weapons" were responsible for the symptoms. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Can't we wait for some secondary source to provide some actual analysis about what it might mean? Bon courage (talk) 03:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That'd be nice. 03:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC) LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It was included in the chronology section, and it was removed claiming "would need WP:MEDRS". BootsED (talk) 03:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok I didn't remove it from that section? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I never claimed you did. BootsED (talk) 03:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This is biomedical content. We have strong secondary sources. Use those sources; don't use unreliable (primary ones). Why is this hard? Bon courage (talk) 03:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

No. You first removed the report with a different claim [107]. After I reinstated it to the "Causes" section you deleted it from, you moved it to the Chronology section, claiming the alleged causal link to GRU needs MEDRS, even though none of the sources in the Causes section are MEDRS. It so happens to be that the highest quality MEDRS we have on the subject lists a number of possible weapons systems as Potential causes of Havana syndrome [108]. Evidently, you haven't read the sources on the topic, MEDRS or otherwise, and this discussion may need to be continued on an administrator noticeboard. FailedMusician (talk) 03:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, LegalSmeagolian, you just made a massive revert of the information that was previously re-added to the page. BootsED (talk) 03:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I explained my reasoning in the edit summary. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Ludacris (tell me how you feel) to me that you are claiming that the HIGHEST QUALITY MEDRS we have is from 2022 and cites a 2020 National Academies of Sciences Standing Committee as its sole source for the claim that radio frequency whatever is the most plausible cause. There are more recent reliable sources that say otherwise. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:31, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Please provide a link to a more recent reliable source (specifically a review article) saying otherwise. FailedMusician (talk) 03:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00207640231208374. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Hooray, an actual piece of peer-reviewed WP:SECONDARY scholarship in a quality journal has been mentioned. Hallelujah! These are the sorts of sources which need to underpin the article. Bon courage (talk) 04:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I am having WP:COMPETENCY concerns about a lot of editors in this space. Goodnight ya'll. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 04:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That article is usable, but it is not a full review article, as was discussed previously [109]. It certainly doesn't trump the previous review article and doesn't settle the matter. FailedMusician (talk) 04:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It reviews multiple pieces of literature on the subject and succinctly summarizes them. It might be a brief review article but it is a review article nonetheless, and the opinion of one editor does not trump that. Why not support an RfC on the matter? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 04:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

PMID:38146090 is a recent review article in a quality journal, and so its conclusion (that HS is just a 'health scare' and 'moral panic') is thus due. So too are the conclusions of the other recent review articles (which ranks various causes' likelihoods differently). Bon courage (talk) 07:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Bon courage just asked me if I edit Wikipedia with other accounts on my user talk page. This needs to go to AN/I due to these ridiculous claims. BootsED (talk) 03:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

To state in wikivoice that this is true? Yes you absolutely need MEDRS sources. You can't make what are medical claims using such sources.
For an attributed statement that an investigation came to this conclusion? Then it should be fine. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The latter would still be making a medial claim, so normally we wouldn't include such sources. Attribution isn't enough there.

This has already been discussed over at WP:FTN, but the one exception would be if there's a fringe claim within that source that other more reliable sources area addressing, WP:PARITY context in terms of proper weighting for ideas that are mentioned, etc. KoA (talk) 14:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Attribution is necessary for all claims, given that most MEDRS sources refrain from making definitive conclusions and acknowledge data access limits. Your removal of quotes from Relman and the New York Times article, which identifies him as "a prominent scientist with access to classified files on the cases," indicates that there is a fundamental misapprehension of the MEDRS policy's intent. FailedMusician (talk) 22:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You seem to assert that you have a comprehensive understanding of MEDRS policies intent, despite being a user with *checks notes* 209 edits. I am wondering how you feel comfortable asserting that. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 23:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I've edited before and recently reread the policy. Please be reminded of WP:AGF and stick to policy based arguments on this project page and other talk pages. FailedMusician (talk) 12:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• It depends on what exactly we say on the page. For example, an assertion in WP voice that an effect has been established would be a "health effect" per Wikipedia:Biomedical information, i.e. an WP:MEDRS covered statement. However, saying that there is a belief about the effect or saying about legal and society issues (and the most of the page is of that nature) would be covered by Wikipedia:Biomedical_information#What_is_not_biomedical_information?. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
• I mentioned this elsewhere, I think; but I believe that this is a case where WP:PARITY applies. Provided the sources are being solely used to rebut lower-quality sources that themselves do not pass WP:MEDRS, I think that PARITY allows for us to use non-MEDRS. In fact, this is exactly the sort of situation PARITY was written for (ie. cranks and non-experts are making a claim that is so far from the academic consensus that it's unlikely to get any serious high-quality treatment at all.) --Aquillion (talk) 18:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Fortunately we have WP:MEDRS sources that support academic consensus. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 18:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  There is no consensus here or on the article talk page that available MEDRS reflect an academic consensus on the cause or any other biomedical aspect of HS. FailedMusician (talk) 12:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

  The absence of academic consensus does not mean fantasy ray-guns should be treated equally likely to more parsimonious causes. Simonm223 (talk) 13:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

  Academic "consensus" is kind of a niche thing (and needs special WP:RS/AC sourcing). Much knowledge is accepted in academia without the formality of a "consensus" being recorded. The current state of knowledge on the causes of Havana syndrome is well-stated in the current "Cause" section of the article,[110] with high-quality WP:MEDRS sourcing. In short, there is disagreement. Bon courage (talk) 14:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Are Meduza and/or https://www.lentata.com/ reliable sources for "Communist pseudohistory"

See this edit:[111] the only edit by an IP. Although I can access Lentato.com I'm forbidden to access the actual source.Как успяхме да направим България от 5,5 милиона население до 9 милиона население (от 1945 до 1989 г.)? Using Chrome it's easy to translate. Doug Weller talk 10:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Meduza is generally reliable and you can find lots of other sources for the first thesis. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The whole edit should be removed. The first reference discusses repression in the Soviet Union, but denial of that repression. So it doesn't backup the details added.
The second part of that edit (the part starting Also, they deliberately underestimat) fails verification. The reference used is the post that is criticised in wikivoice, which obviously doesn't contain any of the rebuttal details in the edit. Rather than WP:OR a source should be found criticising the post.
There are many good sources out there detailing repression in the Soviet Union, these are not great and are being misused. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Meduza is a reliable source but it's a Vox-explainer-style article and there are plenty of scholarly sources about the denial of Communist-era atrocities. The Bulgarian example should be simply removed unless there are RS discussing it. Alaexis_¿question? 13:11, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• Meduza is hardly a "generally reliable source", but rather "additional considerations apply". Given that 1st (Meduza) ref has no name of any author, I would suggest using better sources. 2nd ref in the diff is definitely not an RS. Hence, I agree with ActivelyDisinterested that the edit should be removed. My very best wishes (talk) 16:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Concur. Sources with no attributed author aren't ideal. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Much better sources than this exist on the topic, so there shouldn't be any need to use these two. The first sentences should be easily citeable to better sources, while the second one is weirdly overspecific - why that particular example? Higher-quality sources will have better examples to replace it with. --Aquillion (talk) 13:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
• Just for reference the section was rewritten by another editor[112] after which I added {{citation needed}} tags for the first sentence.[113] -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

PinkNews's reliability

PinkNews is listed as a reliable source on WP:RSP, but looking through some of their recent articles on JoJo Siwa, they've published a fair share of blatant errors. This article states that Siwa's single "Karma" was going to be released on Friday, 9 April, but April 9, 2024 is a Tuesday and the song was released today. They say in an article from a different writer that one fan pointed out that the track has similarities with the theme track to the 90s cartoon Gummy Bears without a source, also misnaming the 1990s cartoon in question (Adventures of the Gummi Bears) and seemingly getting the comparison wrong - the only comparisons I could find to any song with "gummy bear" in the title were to "I'm a Gummy Bear", which was released in 2007. benǝʇᴉɯ 16:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• I'm pretty sure that getting a day of the week wrong isn't an issue, and the rest of the complaint appears to be trivia based on social media sources (TikTok/YouTube). I don't see a problem here. Black Kite (talk) 17:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think for something to be listed as green on RSP, it should have some basic fact-checking in place. While User:Benmite cites a single example, that there are multiple basic errors makes it seem likely that there was little or no oversight for that particular article. [Edit: I misread OP in my head; if it were the case that a single article is found with multiple basic errors, this statement holds.] That calls into question the entire "Culture/Celebrity" section for further scrutiny, and it also indicates we should spot-check some of their news articles too to see if they continue to merit the "generally reliable" rating. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Basic fact checking doesn't mean never makes errors... There are more than two dozen errors of the sort that Benmite is describing in the print edition of the NYT or WSJ every day. Likewise a commonly quoted anecdote in the academic community is that nobody has ever published a truly error free paper. It doesn't call anything into question, you're going off half cocked. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems like very small beans… Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

9 instead of 5 is clearly a typo, and they list the source tweet directly above so there's not even any harm done there.

The other alleged mistake is hard to judge. They could very well be accurately, if unclearly, reporting on a fan making this mistake. Loki (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• Occasional typos and spelling errors are not the sort of issues that have anything to do with reliability of a publication. Silverseren^C 20:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with the others, it’s minor and has no impact on reliability. FortunateSons (talk) 08:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Non-malicious pedestrian mistakes in a couple of fluff articles for a nonspecialist subject? That just means don’t trust fluff articles about nonspecialist subjects in a specialist publication. Which is good advice in general. Dronebogus (talk) 16:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Google Books includes AI trash

Google Books ingests low-quality AI-generated books, some of which are trained on Wikipedia itself. See "Google Books Indexes AI Trash" (April 4, 2024). -- GreenC 17:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd hope that any editor using Google Books for research would check the publisher. <edit to add> GB also hosts books that are merely collations of wikipedia articles. Schazjmd (talk) 17:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Neither Google Books nor Google Ngram Viewer is a Wikipedia RS. The former is only linked to as a content host. Being indiscriminate in such hosting (taking the article's assertions at face value) may or may not be seen as an advantage. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Google Ngram Viewer is used in debates about which variant of a term is more common. I myself am extremely dubious about the value of this, because by its nature it grabs a mishmash of everything, including sources we'd never use for any other purpose. XOR'easter (talk) 18:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Why would it be a problem that Ngram Viewer uses sources we'd never use? 99% of text on the internet is not a reliable source. Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. If the point is to see just which word is more common, I don't see why we'd restrict the search space to reliable sources. Loki (talk) 20:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME specifically asks for prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources. XOR'easter (talk) 23:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Are there any alternatives to Ngrams for our purposes? I really do dislike using it. Remsense诉 11:48, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

This is an interesting question. What are the alternatives to Google's Ngrams? Also, I wonder whether and how you can prevent them from being contaminated by synthetic text. Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

It seems like it wouldn't actually be a huge technical feat to rig a corpus of some size—for our purposes, all we need is a big list of words and their frequency in text year by year. Even if it's not quite as extensive, it seems totally plausible that someone could source and hack together an adequate replacement for the purposes of rough COMMONNAME assessments. Remsense诉 14:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

It sounds pretty challenging to me. I'm wondering if it already exists for various text subsets in some form or another, in the commercial/academic large language model training labs for example because of all of the work that has been done over the years on n-gram language models. Unfortunately, the chatbots know nothing about the statistics of their training datasets, or at least that is what they claim. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:37, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

While new information about diffusion-generated content is good to be mindful of, Google Books has been (or at least, this has been my impression) a repository for sources, not to be treated as a source itself. It may be linked for convenience, but the real measure of a source is not whether someone digitized a preview for Google but what press it was published with, how it was reviewed, the training/profession of the author, etc. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• I mean, Google Books has always been an indiscriminate collection of books - it is a host, not a publisher. We can and should continue to use it as a courtesy link, but books gain their reliability (if any) from their actual publisher, not from the fact that they appear on Google Books. --Aquillion (talk) 18:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Google books, as with academia.edu that was discussed recently, is a host not a source and isn't reliable or unreliable. These are courtesy links for the aid of verification. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

As others have said, it's a host we would judge the book's author. Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Google Books has included self-published sources for years, including books that re-use Wikipedia content. It's a repository, not a source in itself. Mackensen (talk) 12:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Google books isn’t even a source. That’s like complaining a library isn’t reliable because some of its books are crap Dronebogus (talk) 16:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

two articles

are these two articles reliable sources?

1- written by Daniel Sarlo; the author has written several articles about religion and religious matters:

https://www.academia.edu/3590677/Was_There_Zoroastrian_Influence_on_the_Judeo_Christian_Hell

2-written by Simin Amini; the author has several articles on Zoroastrianism, and related subjects:

https://www.academia.edu/54910401/Discuss_the_question_of_Zoroastrian_influence_on_Judaism Researcher1988 (talk) 20:03, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

No. The Sarlo article is coursework. It mentions The University of Toronto course "NMC 2228," which I gather is a graduate-level course on Zoroastrianism: [114]. The Amini article is titled "Discuss the question of Zoroastrian influence on Judaism," which looks like and almost certainly is an essay prompt for coursework in another class. Also, these article are from Academia.edu, and you've already gotten guidance here several days ago that you have to use caution with that site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Articles_from_Academia.edu

I suggest you review WP:SCHOLARSHIP before you ask about sources. I suggest you find a secondary source on Zoroastrianism ("a paper reviewing existing research, a review article, monograph, or textbook") instead of digging around on Academia.edu. Definitely avoid anything you can't attribute to a known, established academic. GretLomborg (talk) 20:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

but the authors have several articles on this subject. why they can't be considered reliable? Researcher1988 (talk) 21:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Because just writing a lot doesn't make a person a reliable source. XOR'easter (talk) 00:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

For the reasons both explicitly just stated to you, and contained in site guidelines that were linked to you. Remsense诉 01:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Here's why: if a student uploads 5 papers he had to write for a class on some subject to a website, does that make him a reliable source on that subject? No, because he's still just a student. - GretLomborg (talk) 03:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Researcher1988 I understand and appreciate your enthusiasm for including academic sources in Zoroastrianism but I think you need to be a bit more discriminating in your selections. Also please focus on reading the sources you select carefully rather than cherry-picking keywords for the POV that Zoroastrianism was the first monotheism or was particularly influential on the development of Judaism. Basically what I am suggesting is you should slow down and try to digest the sources you are selecting. It'll ultimately make your editing experience more pleasant. Simonm223 (talk) 11:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of Kenya Times?

I don't think this is the same thing. Anyways, I'm wanting to use the website to write an article about an East African church leader (link). I'm not familiar with the African press, so is this website reliable? ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 00:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't say much, but there is a Standards and Policies page. Spinixster (trout me!) 09:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

This Kenya Times doesn't appear to be a continuation of the old Kenya Times, the last of which seems to have been wound-up in 2012. The new Kenya Times appears to have been founded about a decade later.
I can't see anything obviously wrong with the link you want to use. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Removal of Masteringcredits-dot-com website ("Mastering Credits Database") from 'External Links'

This link was apparently added by the same company that is promoting its database, mastering clients, and by far, it does not even contain all mastering engineers, or their credits in the music industry.

Conflict of Interest: A service profiting from private sources creating a database potentially promotes itself and its clients.

Neutrality: The editability and potential bias make it difficult to ensure the information is neutral and unbiased.

Verifiability: With anyone-can-edit functionality, the information's accuracy becomes questionable. Site has no editorial checks or user verification; this German site might mislead readers "by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research...".

Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_engineer

Site Violates Links To Normally Be Avoided (Rule: #2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links 2601:546:8200:7EB0:DF:2276:4475:3A90 (talk) 15:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Where is it used? Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_engineer

Sorry! 2601:546:8200:7EB0:DF:2276:4475:3A90 (talk) 15:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, its not being used as a source, so this is more an undue issue. Slatersteven (talk) 16:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for the misunderstanding. The article describing the term mastering engineer is really fine. But what raised my eyebrows was that when I clicked on the only link at the "External Links" section which took me to that site, and where I decided to enter several very well known engineer names to see their credits and nothing came back. It's more like a free for all list of unverified people. That's why I believe that the link was spammy and only inserted there as site promotion. Coincidentally whoever posted the link there is from Germany as well. The link adds zero value to the topic at hand and it should be deleted. Thanks. 2601:546:8200:7EB0:9:AB0D:187F:BF36 (talk) 18:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Use of YouTube as source for video information

I am currently writing Draft:Map Men. Because the series is on YouTube, the air dates and view counts are recorded there. These are official figures by the YT website and not self-published/user-generated, so can I reference those when describing the episodes. E.g. have "MAP MEN - YouTube". www.youtube.com. Retrieved 6 April 2024. as a ref for the published dates and view counts. It would also be better than using IMDb for the published dates, as that is surely less reliable than the source. I'm sure someone has asked this before but I haven't found it yet. Tysm, JacobTheRox (talk) 16:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC) JacobTheRox (talk) 16:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The date that an existing YT video was published on the site may not be the same as the date the video was originally published. On many occasions a YT video has to be taken down and modified by the author in some ways, then reuploaded, and this may be recorded (or not) differently at different times in youtube's history.

The best you can do with citing a YT video as a wp:primary source is to say something like that "Their official video on Youtube as of {editdate}, published {yt-published-date}, has {yt-view-count} views." SamuelRiv (talk) 20:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. WP:NOOR says "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge". This applies to the data on YouTube because it is numbers that are straightforward and easily accessible. It also says "# Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." This should be fine because I am just pulling the data. As for the accuracy re taking videos down, that's simply not how YouTube works: the date (for public videos) is when the video was originally published. I think this rationale covers its use. JacobTheRox (talk) 14:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Khaleej Times reliability for non-governmental issues

I'm trying to check if Khaleej Times is or isn't a reliable source for non-governmental issues. My question comes from the fact that there are no UAE news outlets listed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources and this feels like a major coverage gap. I understand that the press in the UAE can't challenge the monarchy, so my question here is caveated on non-governmental issues only.

There is a previous discussion here and I read the statement from one of the editors (@Bobfrombrockley:) "I don't think The National and the Khaleej Times are generally unreliable; I think they're partisan and should only be used with attribution for controversial topics where the UAE rulers are implicated. Their reputation is less for inaccuracy and more for self-censorship of critical content."

Is the consensus that such a statement is correct? That would put Khaleej Times at the same level that the Xinhua News Agency has at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources, correct? Contributor892z (talk) 17:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Sources are only placed on WP:RSP if they are been discussed multiple times. It's not a complete list of reliable or unreliable sources, and is not meant to be. So whether a source appears or doesn't appear on the list is irrelevant to it's reliability.
As to Khaleej Times unless another editor has objected to its use, I can't see any reason not to follow Bobfrombrockley advice. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion about GQ at WT:RSP

Please join this discussion about including GQ at WP:RSP. S0091 (talk) 17:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Concerns about sources used in page about Ratlines

on the page about Ratlines (which were a series of escape routes used by Nazis and collaborators to flee europe) i found a concerning post in the articles talk section. according to a post made in may 2023. apparently the page uses sources from two authors named John Loftus and michael phayer. Loftus is a conspiracy theorist and one of Phayers book relies on sources from Loftus, which puts the sources from phayer used in the article into doubt regarding their reliability.

while i would delete the sections in question, I do not have adequate sources to replace them. Bird244 (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Link to the discussion here last year: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 404#Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis, and the Swiss Bankers. Mackensen (talk) 20:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

ive read the post, and have concluded that all parts of the article used by Loftus will be removed. the man claims in one of his books that theres some sort of bizarre connection between the Bush family, the rockefellers (a common scapegoat for conspiracy theorist nutjobs) and the nazis. the idea that there was some sort of secret plan ordered by the Vatican and Pope Pius XII to shelter and aid nazi escape to south america is contradicted by his actions during and befor his papacy where he condemned Nazism and Italian Fascism. why would he then help nazis escape? its well known the austrian cardinal Alois Hundal and rogue Croat clergymen were involved in ratlines, but to say it was a plot by the Holy See is ridiculous. Bird244 (talk) 13:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

so should they be removed or not? Loftus's work is rather ridiculous. i dont understand why its not been removed Bird244 (talk) 22:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Closing (archived) RfC: Mondoweiss

Note: Instead of reviving or de-archiving this archived discussion, for ease of recordkeeping, I'm going to leave a close note here and link to the original discussion. If anyone objects and would prefer the discussion is revived prior to closure, please feel free to edit and amend this accordingly.

---

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

On January 7, 2024, an RSN RfC on Mondoweiss was initiated by Chess. The last substantive comment was left on February 15, 2024. Selfstudier registered a close request on February 20, 2024 at WP:CR. In the intervening period, the original discussion was bot-archived.

Headcounts (indicative but not definitive as per WP:NOTAVOTE):

• By straight headcounting, 0 editors preferred option 1 (generally reliable), 20 editors preferred option 2 (additional considerations apply), 3 editors preferred option 3 (generally unreliable), 7 editors preferred option 4 (deprecate), 1 editor preferred 1 or 2, 1 editor preferred 2 or 3, and 4 editors preferred 3 or 4.
• By quality headcounting (discounting only the most egregious WP:VAGUEWAVEs) 0 editors preferred option 1, 20 editors preferred option 2, 3 editors preferred option 3, 7 editors preferred option 4, 1 editor preferred 1 or 2, 1 editor preferred 2 or 3, and 3 editors preferred 3 or 4.
• Assigning midpoint values to "X or X" !votes, the median preference value is 2.6, placing it somewhere between "generally unreliable" and "additional considerations apply" but not clearly learning toward either option.
  

Some Option 2 !voters advanced the argument that Monodweiss is only a hosting platform with no gatekeeping process and that, instead of judging the entire site, individual articles should apparently be considered on the basis of WP:USESPS. Some other !voters objected to the factual accuracy of that assertion. Option 2 !voters took issue with calls for deprecation, saying the reasoning underlying those calls related to bias and hinting at WP:BIASEDSOURCES as an argument against deprecation. This was not fully rebutted. However, there seems to be a general agreement by all sides that Monoweiss is biased as even Option 2 !voters seemed to spontaneously or referentially make note of that.

An Option 4 !voter cited WP:FRINGE, characterizing the bulk of Mondoweiss content thusly. This was not fully rebutted.

A few editors suggested that, regardless of outcome, it should not be used for WP:BLPs. No direct reasoning was presented for that, however, some indirect reference to our policies could be divined within the greater context of the remarks of those editors and these suggestions were not really rebutted.

All arguments presented were equally compelling insofar as their reference to our policies, and none was particularly more so than any others.

There is a consensus that Mondoweiss is biased and that content cited to it should be evaluated and, when appropriate, presented as per WP:RSEDITORIAL and that it should either not be used at all — or used with great caution — for biographies of living people. No further consensus as to its underlying reliability emerged. This appears to be, more or less, a community endorsement of the status quo for Mondoweiss at WP:RSP. Chetsford (talk) 20:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chetsford (talk) 20:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Just for the sake of editors searching the archives in the future I've closed the archived thread with a link to this close. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

RFC: The Anti-Defamation League

In an earlier thread, editors expressed concerns regarding the ADL's current status as a generally reliable source in several topic areas. I'm breaking these topic areas into different RFCs, as I believe there's a reasonable chance they might have different outcomes. Loki (talk) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Part 1: Israel/Palestine

What is the reliability of the Anti-Defamation League regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Loki (talk) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Survey (ADL:I/P)

• Option 3. The ADL is heavily biased regarding Israel/Palestine to the point of often acting as a pro-Israel lobbying organization. This can and does compromise its ability to accurately report facts regarding people and organizations that disagree with it on this issue, especially non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews and Jewish organizations. Loki (talk) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3. Its CEO publicly comparing the pro-Palestine protestors wearing keffiyeh with Nazis wearing swastika armbands as well as mispresenting all pro-Palestine protestors as "wanting all zionists dead" demonstrates its skewed views and manipulative presentation on the IP topic and thus highly unreliable. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 00:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1. No evidence has been posted of unreliability - of them making false claims. It's unclear to me why we are even hosting this discussion without such evidence, and in the absence of it we shouldn't change ADL's rating. BilledMammal (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4. Contrary to BilledMammal's WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT-esque reply, the previous two commenters have concretely pointed out multiple examples of their unreliability. Here and here are two articles detailing many more instances of the ADL's specious and less-than-credible reporting, as well as its history of intimidating, harassing, and bullying its critics and critics of Israel. The ADL has a history of celebrating ethnic cleansing and lauding and defending right-wing anti-Semites, all of which belie their apparent stated intentions of being an organization working to Protect Democracy and Ensure a Just and Inclusive Society For All, and provide clear evidence they are a pro-Israel advocacy organization masquerading as a human rights group. I could go on. It just isn't a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination on anything but the most quotidian of claims. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Reading those articles, they don't appear to be discussing matters of factual falsehood, but of differences of opinion, as well as actions taking by ADL that the authors disagree with. If I am wrong and have misunderstood those articles then please correct me and provide quotes.

  In fact, those articles even say that in terms of "use by others", ADL is still considered reliable by top quality reliable sources! For example, The Nation article says The problem is that The New York Times, PBS, and other mainstream outlets that reach millions are constantly and uncritically promoting the ADL and amplifying the group’s questionable charges.

  If we declare that ADL is unreliable here we will be taking a fringe position that most mainstream sources would disagree with. BilledMammal (talk) 01:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Are you sure you mean option 4? Option 4 is deprecate, which has never been done for only one topic area of a source before, because it means removing the source from any article it appears in for any reason. Loki (talk) 01:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  "questionable charges" is an accusation of unreliability. Zero^talk 04:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think this !vote is in the wrong section as none of the ADL claims the Nation and Jewish Currents articles are critiques are about antisemitism and not about Israel/Palestine. The two critiques (both opinion pieces) largely refer to questions of interpretation or to historical co-operation with and the US state and not any questions of fact. I can't see either critique actually saying that a single factual claim made by ADL was inaccurate. And, as BilledMammal notes, the critiques acknowledge that many RSs do judge them as reliable, so deprecating would be a perverse response to the critiques. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3: This is an advocacy group so the threshold is higher than for a standard peer-reviewed secondary source. Recent coverage suggests that the sources is not only biased but may be unreliable. For example, The Nation dismantles ADL's claims that "U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel" and asks ...why does the media still treat it as a credible source? --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  The Nation (or, rather, the Nation's contributor) is attacking a strawman here. The ADL press release caveats the data as "preliminary", explains that "incidents" are not the same as "attacks" and, as a press release, would count as a WP:PRIMARY source that should only be used with caution anyway. The NBC reporting of the press release shows how it is transparent and thus can be easily be used carefully: The ADL said antisemitic incidents increased 360% in the three months after Oct. 7 compared to the same period in 2022. However, the group also said that the data since Oct. 7 includes 1,317 rallies that were marked by “antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel and/or anti-Zionism.” The group said such rallies held before Oct. 7 were “not necessarily included” in its earlier data. Ditto CNN: However, since October 7, the ADL added a category to count rallies that they say have included “antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel and/or anti-Zionism.” It’s unclear whether rallies were tracked last year. This new category has helped to account for the increase in antisemitic incidents over the last three months, with the ADL tracking 1,317 such incidents. Without those numbers, the US has seen a 176% increase in antisemitic incidents of harassment, vandalism and physical attacks compared to the same three-month period last year. In short, the Nation article (a) doesn't help us know if it is reliable as a source on Israel/Palestine, and (b) does not establish general unreliability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• The CNN story includes this note: Clarification: This story has been updated to include additional information about how the ADL tracks incidents of antisemitism since the start of the Israel-Hamas War. CNN first went with the ADL's number of "361%" from the press release in the Jan 10 version of the article, but then had to revise the story to add three new paragraphs and the "176%" number, to reflect statistics without incidents newly categorized by ADL as antisemitic. In anything, this suggests that ADL is an unreliable source to the point that news outlets that rely on its reporting have to issue corrections after the fact. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3Option 4 Sources that we classify as WP:RS have documented not only bias (which is not proscribed as per WP:BIASEDSOURCES), but blanket inaccuracies with respect to its content on the issue of Palestine/Palestinians and the Israel/Palestine conflict. For example:

• The Intercept reported [115] that the ADL stated the Students for Justice in Palestine "provided material support to Hamas" despite there being no evidence for that assertion and the claim being widely discredited after it was made.
• The Boston Review writes that "the ADL has a long history of wielding its moral authority to attack Arabs, blacks, and queers". [116]
• The ADL often takes opinion positions on questions adjacent to these before making wild, 180 degree turns on those same questions. For instance, it opposed the Sufi Islamic Center in New York on the grounds that it was "not right" [117] but then declared that they, themselves, were not right for having opposed it in the first place. [118] It is difficult to build encyclopedic content on a source with this type of editorial schizophrenia.
• Most importantly, the ADL's own staff, as per The Guardian, have criticized the accuracy and veracity of the ADL's claims on this topic. [119] Can we call a source RS if the source itself questions whether it's reliable?

For these reasons, I believe it should only be used, with respect to Israel/Palestine, as a source for its own editorial opinions and never for anything else, and particularly to reference WP:BLPs.After further consideration of Brusquedandelion's comment, I'm changing my !vote to Option 4, understanding that deprecating for a single topic area presents significant editing difficulty and may be unprecedented. Chetsford (talk) 01:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC); edited 01:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) One by one:

1. This appears to be a situation where we don't know the truth; some reliable sources say one thing, and others say the opposite. That isn't basis to declare a source generally unreliable.
2. That appears to be the author disagreeing with the positions and actions taken by ADL, not declaring that they are pushing false statements. Again, this isn't a basis to declare a source generally unreliable.
3. Organizations are allowed to reconsider past positions and statements. Indeed, the fact that they have reconsidered in this case would suggest they are a better source now than they were ten years ago - and certainly isn't a basis to declare a source generally unreliable.
4. Those staff don't appear to be saying that ADL is pushing falsehoods, but instead that they disagree with the ADL on the definition of antisemitism. As the exact definition is a matter of debate, I don't consider disagreements in that area as a basis to declare a source generally unreliable.

This just continues the issue of equating sources disagreeing with the positions that ADL takes as being evidence that the ADL is pushing falsehoods. If there is evidence of ADL pushing falsehoods then please present them, but absent such evidence I see no basis to downgrade the status of this source. BilledMammal (talk) 01:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. I've responded to your critique in the discussion section. Chetsford (talk) 01:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the ADL stated the Students for Justice in Palestine "provided material support to Hamas", I just reviewed both the Intercept article and the ADL document it is referring to. The Intercept only says the ADL suggested that SJP had provided material support, while the [https://www.adl.org/resources/letter/adl-and-brandeis-center-letter-presidents-colleges-and-universities ADL document only asks that universities investigate whether local SJP chapters had provided "material support".

There is no basis in that article to downgrade ADL - possibly basis to consider it biased, but nothing further than that. BilledMammal (talk) 14:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I encourage you to avail yourself of the discussion section. Chetsford (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 (and my objection to option 4 is only that I am opposed to deprecation on principle). After AIPAC, the ADL is the primary propagandist for Israel in the United States. All of its pronouncements regarding Israel are based on the advocacy role it has adopted and not based on an unbiased analysis of the facts. Zero^talk 02:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  All of its pronouncements regarding Israel are based on the advocacy role it has adopted and not based on an unbiased analysis of the facts Bias is not a basis to consider a source generally unreliable. BilledMammal (talk) 02:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Remove the word "unbiased", it is not the point of the sentence. The point is "not based on .. the facts". The bias is why they are unreliable. Zero^talk 02:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1. First, I agree with the argument by BilledMammal above and unconvinced by specific examples of allegedly unreliable reporting. As of note, none of "generally reliable" sources is 100% reliable. Secondly, there is a big wave of antisemitism related to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I think it is actually worse than many other manifestations of antisemitism. Hence, the sourced views by ADL related to the conflict should be included even if they seem to be unfair to some people. My very best wishes (talk) 02:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

While I agree that there does appear to be "a big wave of antisemitism related to the Israel-Palestine conflict" and anti-Palestinian sentiment (although they presumably mostly tap pre-existing reservoirs), a problem, I guess, is not that it may seem unfair to targets, it's that it may be inaccurate and defamatory. Does this matter given that it is a POV? I'm not sure. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem isn't that it is unfair, but that it is inaccurate, including with respect to the reporting of antisemitism, as detailed in The Nation's analysis. The very inability to maintain its bearing/credibility in a time of crisis is precisely what is deteriorating it as a source. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The Nation is a partisan source in itself. The Nation's subjective opinions on definitions of antisemitism are not a justified ground to disqualify another reliable source. Vegan416 (talk) 11:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Partisan in the the sense of progressive within US politics; not partisan on the IP conflict. So that's irrelevant. Otherwise, the Nation is an actual newspaper with an actual editorial board, which places it lightyears ahead of the ADL in terms of reliability. No comparison. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

We all know that these days being progressive within US politics (as opposed to being liberal or conservative) also almost always means pro-Palestinians views. Furthermore the Natation article doesn't actually bring any example of pro-Palestinian groups that do not oppose the existence of Israel and were marked as antisemitic by the ADL. The only group mentioned there by name is SJP, and representatives of this organization have declared many times their opposition to the existence of Israel. See for example here:

https://nycsjp.wordpress.com/points-of-unity/:

"We identify the establishment of the state of israel as an ongoing project of settler-colonialism that will be stopped only through Palestinian national liberation."

https://theaggie.org/2018/07/06/students-for-justice-in-palestine-kill-and-expect-love/:

"it is an ideological fantasy to really believe that progress is possible so long as the state of Israel exists [..] The goal of Palestinian resistance is not to establish ‘love’ with those who are responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian people; it is to completely dismantle those forces at play."

It should also be noted that the SJP “points of unity” state that "It is committed to ending Israel’s occupation and colonization of all Arab lands", and some SJP members and chapters explicitly refer to the Israeli occupation as having started in 1948, when Israel was founded. In July 2018, Tulane’s SJP chapter wrote that “Israel’s occupation [of Palestinians land] began seventy years ago”. In May of 2018, SJP at DePaul University distributed fliers claiming that Israel has engaged in “70 years of occupation.” Vegan416 (talk) 14:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be battling a few strawmen. The Nation was raised solely in the context of its analysis on the mislabeling of antisemitism incidents. Your opinions on progressive US politics are by-the-by, and no, you can't assume this to mean partisan in an IP setting. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

1. I can definitely assume this to mean partisan in an IP setting as well. This is the result of all this progressive "intersectionality" idea.
2. This is "mislabeling" of antisemitism incidents only according to The Nation progressive intersectionality opinion. It is not so according to the mainstream view. The subtitle of the article in The Nation laments "So why does the media still treat it [the ADL] as a credible source?". Well guess what? It is precisely because the mainstream media doesn't agree that the ADL is mislabeling these groups. Mainstream media mostly agrees that groups like the SJP who explicitly call for the end of Israel, are indeed antisemite. Your view, and The Nation's view, that they are not antisemite, are the fringe here.

Vegan416 (talk) 17:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You don't get to label RS analysis opinion because you don't like it. No idea what you mean by 'intersectionality' here, but it sounds like gobbledygook. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323

Intersectionality is a central concept in progressive thinking nowadays. I am surprised you didn't hear of it. I suggest you read the wikipedia article on it. As for you calling it "gobbledygook", I dont mind it personally, not being a progressive myself, but it might offend some of the progressive editors here.. Vegan416 (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3. As documented in depth and breadth by multiple users in the discussion above and in multiple comments of this RfC, the ADL does not have the credibility necessary for us to consider their content reliable sources. There is untenable distortion by the ADL of the circumstances of the geopolitical situation in the region as well as of the behavior and activities of organizations that pertain to it such that we cannot rely on the ADL to report facts accurately. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1: Generally reliable. No evidence was shown of the ADL making false claims. See more detailed comment in the second survey about antisemitism.Vegan416 (talk) 07:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 for all the reasons stated above. Would be happy with Option 4 if we could get consensus.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 08:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 because as discussed earlier, it is partisan pro-Israel advocacy group which has historically been engaged in espionage and defamation campaign against pro-Palestinian activists, and its broadened definition of antisemitism. Their reliability on the topic has been put into question by the Guardian and the Nation, both RS per WP. Attribution is required for any claim; and for controversial claims, probably best not to be used at all. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 The ADL has consistently misidentified critics of Israel as anti-Semitic, has proven credulous to disinformation that supports Israel and has experienced negative reputational outcomes from its engagement on the topic. It should not be used as a source as it is thoroughly unreliable. Simonm223 (talk) 09:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per the arguments made above and in the prior discussion, the ADL is considered reliable (but biased) and worthy of citation by many RS in regards to the topic area (interpreted broadly), including but not limited to the New York Times [1],[2], the BBC [1], [2], Washington Post [Clarifying that not all negative use of 'Zionist' is antisemitism, FAZ, and many others. They and their opinion are considered reliable by many, but particularly controversial claims should be attributed, applying the same policy applying to other civil rights groups as well as biased news sources. Common sense should be used. FortunateSons (talk) 10:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  None of these sources are using the ADL as a source for facts on Israel/Palestine. Some of them are using it as a reliable source for facts about antisemitism in the US, which is the topic of the survey below. Two of them attribute to the ADL the opinion that the "river to sea" slogan is antisemitic, but they do not say this is a fact in their own voices. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  They use them as a source for facts/their credited opinions in regards to conduct related to I/P, mostly by Americans/people from western countries. According to my interpretation of many of the comments made, the exclusion of statement like 'ADL says “statement X about Israel is antisemitism”/“group Y is antisemitic”/“this is over the line of criticism of Israel and into antisemitism”' would be included by this as well. If it’s not, I’m having a hard time finding statements made about I/P that are of relevance, let alone warrant this discussion, they don’t generally comment on geopolitical details. FortunateSons (talk) 11:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 based on the ADL's long-standing inaccuracy, advocacy and now increasingly unhinged misinformation on IP-related matters. The source's problems have intensified significantly under Greenblatt, but it cannot be chalked up to just this. That there have been no calls for leadership changes despite both external critique and the raising of internal grievances (over its intolerable extreme blurring of its civil rights and political advocacy) points to a general breakdown in the checks and balances within the organisation. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. Unreliable normally means publishing information which is factually incorrect. I don't see a lot of evidence of this. What I do see is opinion being published as fact. When the ADL characterises something as anti-semitic, that is often more an opinion than a fact. Lots of advocacy organisations do this, and for all of them, we as editors need to strengthen our skills at identifying such opinions, and decline to bless them in wikivoice. Therefore I don't think we can say this source is unreliable, but we should warn editors to wear extra insulation when handling it. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 10:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3, as per Zero because I am opposed to the application of option 4 in almost every case, except egregious hate sites and the like.

  The ADL has consistently called for laws and measures that consider as possible examples of connivance with terrorism significant movements which protest in solidarity with an occupied people, i.e. Palestinians. It does this because its agenda tends to collapse core distinctions between demonstrating on behalf of human rights (in Israel/Palestine) and anti-Semitism defined as anti-Zionist disavowels of the legitimacy of Israel as a state. In its practice, advocacy for Palestinian human rights should be subject to criminalization. (Alice Speri, How the ADL's Anti-Palestinian Advoacy Helped Shape U.S. Terror laws, The Intercept 21 February 2024)

  For its director Jonathan Greenblatt, opposition to Israel/anti-Zionism (by which he appears to mean criticism of Israel’s human rights record) is intrinsically ‘antisemitic’. His position was so extreme that even ADL staff protested at the equation of critics of Israel with those white supremicists groups which the ADL has distinguished itself in exposing. (Jonathan Guyer, Tom Perkins, Anti-Defamation League staff decry ‘dishonest’ campaign against Israel critics The Guardian 5 January 2024).

  (Justin) Sadowsky (of the Council on American–Islamic Relations), who is Jewish, characterizes some of ADL’s actions as part of a pattern of deliberate intimidation to make it “very difficult for Palestinians to talk in a forthright way about what’s going on”, (Wilfred Chan ‘The Palestine exception’: why pro-Palestinian voices are suppressed in the US The Guardian 1 November 2023). And they do distort information, because their lists of antisemitic incidents do not discriminate between normal protests and serious incidents of antisemitic behaviour. Spitting on Christian priests in Jerusalem is commonplace and the ADL has protested the practice regularly, but, if that is noteworthy for them, the same cannot be said for protesting extreme human rights violations by Israel against Palestinians, which are endemic and yet, it appears, not noteworthy.

  Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL doesn't mark mere criticism of Israel an antisemitism. It only marks calling for the destruction of Israel and denying its right to exist as antisemitism. See https://www.adl.org/about/adl-and-israel/anti-israel-and-anti-zionist-campaigns. And this is a mainstream view. Vegan416 (talk) 13:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

So you take the ADL at its word.Noted.Nishidani (talk) 13:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you prove otherwise? Vegan416 (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't need to. I gave some sources challenging the ADL's claims, and you merely cited the ADL "protesting too much" without troubling yourself to examine those sources' claims and documentation. I am not going to participate in another poinjtless thread. I'll just note that

While criticism of Israeli policies and actions is part of that discourse, certain forms of anti-Israel rhetoric and activism delegitimize Israel and its existence, and are antisemitic when they vilify and negate Zionism – the movement for Jewish self-determination and statehood

Well, all ideologies - and Zionism is an ideological construction based on ethnic exclusiveness - are closed systems of thought that are by self-definition and practice, hostile to the sort of thinking fundamental to an open and democratic society, a principle theorized by Henri Bergson (Jewish-French). An anti-Zionist could equally define, on solid grounds, Zionism as 'the movement for the denial of Palestinian self-determination' as the tacit but, in historical practice, acknowledged corollary of that definition of Zionism, since Zionism asserted its claim when Palestine was 95% Arab, noting that half of the world's Jewish population is thriving elsewhere regardless, and does not appear to think that an ethnic state is its default homeland.Nishidani (talk) 13:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nishidani

As you well know, when Zionism was formed 130 years ago there was actually no Palestinian national identity to speak of. Regardless of that Zionism doesn't necessarily contradicts the self-determination of the Palestinian nation. For this there is the idea of a two state solution. As for those hard right-wing Zionists who are opposed to the two states idea in principle, and deny that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination, I have absolutely no objection to calling them "anti-Palestinian". So why do you object to using the word "anti-Jewish" or "antisemite" to describe the anti-Zionists who are opposed to the two state idea in principle, and deny that the Jews have a right to self-determination? Why the double standards? Vegan416 (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Please don't make thoughtless comments like that. If there was no Palestinian identity in 1900, there was also no Zionist identity, since less than 1% adhered around that time. It's like saying the white colonisation of Australia, declaring the land terra nullius, was fine, even though several hundred cultures were erased, and the entire population of Tasmania exterminated, because the aboriginals had no identity unlike the invaders who were 'European'.Nishidani (talk) 16:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This is veering pretty close to WP:NOTFORUM. Your personal opinion regarding the historicity of the Palestinian national identity is noted. It is also entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Simonm223 (talk) 16:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Since this is WP:NOFORUM I'll send you a private comment on this Vegan416 (talk) 19:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Going through those sources I'm seeing allegations that ADL is biased, but not that it is unreliable - that it is producing misinformation. If I am incorrect, can you quote from those articles where they allege that the ADL has promoted falsehoods? BilledMammal (talk) 14:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL is well aware that the methods it uses have been criticized as flawed, yet it refuses to change them to conform with standard statistical sampling methods. That means that it concocts misinformation.

Back in the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis, the ADL immediately came forth with alarmist figures, whose methodology a serious analyst with competence in statistics and hate crimes duly questioned /pulled apart. See Mari Cohen, Closer Look at the ‘Uptick’ in Antisemitism Jewish Currents 27 May 2021.

So aware of, but not responsive to, the technical criticism of its methods, now it has issued its latest analysis

The ADL released its annual antisemitism report on Wednesday, announcing that there were a stunning 3,283 such incidents in 2023. That’s a 361 percent increase compared to the previous year, according to the organization, which noted the “American Jewish community is facing a threat level that’s now unprecedented in modern history.” . . . The ADL report was widely covered by mainstream outlets.

the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7 Hamas attack to include rallies that feature “anti-Zionist chants and slogans,” events that appear to account for around 1,317 of the total count. Arno Rosenfeld, ADL counts 3,000 antisemitic incidents since Oct. 7, two-thirds tied to Israel: The group changed its criteria from prior tallies to include more anti-Zionist events and rhetoric. The Forward 10 January 2024.

The ADL released its annual antisemitism report on Wednesday, announcing that there were a stunning 3,283 such incidents in 2023. That’s a 361 percent increase compared to the previous year, according to the organization, . . . . . The ADL report was widely covered by mainstream outlets like CNN, NBC, and Axios, which simply took the organization’s word for the gigantic increase without actually checking the data behind the claim. Not all media outlets fumbled the ball, however. . . The ADL admits in its own press release that it includes pro-Palestine rallies in its list of antisemitic incidents, even if these featured no overt hostility toward Jewish people. Any anti-Israel or anti-Zionist chants are enough for the ADL’s new definition of antisemitism.Adrienne Mahsa Varkiani, ADL Officially Admits It Counts Pro-Palestine Activism as Antisemitic The New Republic 10 January 2024.

That new statistic with its deplorable attempt to press a panic button to get everyone in the American-Jewish community feeling as though they were under mortal siege is rubbish, and exposed as such. Worse, as noted, the ADL's ballsed up statistics were taken and repeated by major mainstream outlets without doing any checking. That's why it is unreliable, certainly under the present direction. Nishidani (talk) 16:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This appears to be based on a disagreement about the definition of antisemitism; the narrower definition preferred by you and some sources, and the wider definition preferred by the ADL and other sources, as well as several nations and supranational entities.

For example, your Jewish Currents source gives "Zionism is racism. Abolish Israel" as an example of a statement that the ADL considers antisemitic, but the author of the article considers to be "more accurately described as anti-Zionist". In this case, ADL's position aligns with the Working definition of antisemitism, specifically "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

You can disagree with this position, but is is not a fringe position and there is no basis to consider ADL unreliable because of it. BilledMammal (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The Working definition of antisemitism is the result of political attempts to define the topic, and then pressure to have its provisions enacted in law. As framed, it certainly got a toe-hold among politicians, but has veryt very little credibility as a definition in the scholarship. I was taking a person to the Exhibition Buildings Museum some months ago, and came across a pro-ceasefire demonstration. I stopped for a chat, and a donation, and the atmosphere was pleasant. The day afterwards, a young women wrote to the Age and said that as a Jewish person, she felt quite 'uncomfortable' even though she too endorsed a ceasefire. Uncomfortable because it was sidedly 'pro-Palestinian' (i.e. the major victim). Many reports of campus 'harassment' examined turn out to be interviews with Jews who feel 'uncomfortable' (of course there are the usual idiots who shout injurious remarks) in these contexts. Much of this enters the register as 'antisemitic' by organizations like the ADL who fail to carefully assess reports. When I see the word 'uncomfortable', I think that kind of discomfort, if that was all, would be embraced by 2 million Gazans as infinitely preferable to what they must endure, now and for the rest of their prospective lives.Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

"the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7" – there are a few ways to describe this, but "consistent statistical methodology" and "reliable source" are not among them. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The full quote from Forward is that the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7 Hamas attack to include rallies that feature "anti-Zionist chants and slogans", but that conflicts with other sources such as the Jewish Currents one that told us in 2021 that their definition of antisemitic incidents had long considered "anti-Zionist chants and slogans" to be antisemitic.

It also conflicts with publications from ADL, such as this 2022 article, which said Anti-Zionism is antisemitic, in intent or effect, as it invokes anti-Jewish tropes; is used to disenfranchise, demonize, disparage, or punish all Jews and/or those who feel a connection to Israel; exploits Jewish trauma by invoking the Holocaust in order to position Jews as akin to Nazis; or renders Jews less worthy of nationhood and self-determination than other peoples.

Further, even if we assume that Jewish Currents and the ADL website is wrong and Forward is right, organizations are allowed to update the definitions they use, and there is no basis to consider them unreliable because they do so. BilledMammal (talk) 16:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

A broadening of a definition (assuming it is apparent and communicated, which it is here), is not per se problematic, and definitely isn’t if it’s merely used to include IHRA. Based on my reading, it seems like the changes started to include some broadening, per the Forward source: Aryeh Tuchman, director of ADL’s Center on Extremism, which oversees the periodic tallies,said in an interview two years ago that his team generally only included incidents that had a clear victim — as opposed to general expressions of hostility toward Jews — and that there was a high bar for including criticism of Israel. Inclusion is only an issue if it is inaccurate, an assuming they are generally following IHRA (and accepting the common-sense fact that people can be discriminatory against their own ethnic, religious or other group), neither of which seems to be disproven by the article(s), who are instead critical of such choices, I see no indication that it is anything beyond biased.

I have a specific concern regarding the republic article, as it appears that the Forward article is summarised in a misleading way: the forward article seems to describe inclusion of some “anti-Zionist“ incidents, while the republic implies all. Is that just me? FortunateSons (talk) 16:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you missing that after broadening its definition, the ADL then claimed there was a massive rise in antisemitic incidents, right after it significantly broadened its definition of "antisemitic incidents"? Loki (talk) 17:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Some others have said that the majority of the changes pre-date the conflict, and many of the new changes are covered by IHRA. As long as they publicly admit the change (which they did), I don’t see the problem. FortunateSons (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not just blatantly dodgy statistical malfeasance and misrepresention (and even arguably disinformation); it's dangerous fear-mongering. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 As of late, the ADL has actively been not only producing more and more highly biased material in this subject area, but also misinformation as noted by others above and in the previous discussion. Silverseren^C 14:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 the simple fact is that ADL is an aggressively pro-Israel organization which considers even questioning the legitimacy of Israel (a very young state founded under circumstances that are extremely dubious to day the least) makes it inherently biased. I’m not trying to wade into the “let’s use Wikipedia as a proxy to argue about Israel/Palestine” fight but the rough equivalent would be an Afrikaner advocacy group saying questioning the legitimacy of European colonization in South Africa is racist. Dronebogus (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Dronebogus Even if your claims about Israel were right they are not relevant at all to the question of reliability of the ADL. But since you raised this, I must correct you. Your claims are false. Israel is not a very young state. In fact Israel is older than 136 (that is 70%) of the UN member states. And there is nothing dubious in the circumstances of its birth compared to the birth of other states. Vegan416 (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  I mean Israel had not been continuously inhabited by Jews for thousands of years, unlike say China which has always been inhabited by Chinese people. And “nothing dubious” about ethnic cleansing? I’m not saying it’s worse than other states founded on that premise, but if you think there’s nothing wrong with the Nakba I’m seriously questioning your minimum standard of “dubious”. Dronebogus (talk) 16:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4 - having read much of the extensive discussion and evidence presented above it is clear the ADL cannot be considered a reliable source. The ADL has been publishing and producing blatant misinformation and disinformation regarding the current conflict, exaggerating increases in anti-semitism in the United States by sneaky and cynical misrepresentation of statistics and openly equating literally any criticism of the Israeli government, politicians and military with anti-semitism. By falsely equating criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism, ADL is effectively attempting to replicate a chilling effect. This also serves to trivialise genuine anti-semitism, just as the ADL did to defend a virulent racist who they considered sympathetic to their cause. I don't need to re-state the countless examples of flagrant dishonesty from the ADL shown above, but it is fairly clear that we cannot in good faith trust this source. Perhaps the most damming evidence against the ADL is this article from The Guardian earlier this year in which multiple respected staff members of the ADL express serious concerns about the falsehoods coming from within the organisation, and declaring these falsehoods are "intellectually dishonest and damaging to our reputation as experts in extremism." If even their own staff no longer consider them honest, how can anyone? AusLondonder (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  The Guardian article is about an internal disagreement over the definition of antisemitism; ADL says that it includes anti-zionism, in line with the working definition of antisemitism which, while controversial, is also widely accepted, while some employees strongly disagree. At no point does that article say that staff members of the ADL express serious concerns about the falsehoods coming from within the organisation - the closest the article comes is a quote where an employee expresses concerns about a "false equivalency" between antisemitism and anti-zionism, but this is just part of the dispute over the definition of antisemitism. If I've missed something, then please provide quotes from the article showing it - but from what I can see your claims about that article don't match it, and the article itself doesn't supporting removing ADL's "generally reliable" status, let alone downgrading it to deprecated. BilledMammal (talk) 17:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree with your characterisation of what the Guardian article is about. The relevant section "Some members of ADL’s staff were outraged by the dissonance between Greenblatt’s comments and the organization’s own research, as evidenced by internal messages viewed by the Guardian. "There is no comparison between white supremacists and insurrectionists and those who espouse anti-Israel rhetoric, and to suggest otherwise is both intellectually dishonest and damaging to our reputation as experts in extremism," a senior manager at ADL’s Center on Extremism wrote in a Slack channel to over 550 colleagues. Others chimed in, agreeing. "The aforementioned false equivalencies and the both-sides-ism are incompatible with the data I have seen," a longtime extremism researcher said. "[T]he stated concerns about reputational repercussions and societal impacts have already proved to be prescient." AusLondonder (talk) 17:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  The Guardian article is also interesting in reporting on the ADL CEO praising Elon Musk just after Musk had endorsed a vicious anti-semitic conspiracy theory on Twitter/X, which prompted resignations from the ADL in protest. So ignoring genuine disgusting anti-semitism but going after Jews for Peace as an anti-semitic hate group because they want an end to the war in Gaza. Hugely trustworthy source... AusLondonder (talk) 17:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 - it's a pro-Israeli lobbying group, not scholarship or journalism, and equates criticism of Israel or anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Citespam:
  • Ronit Lentin, David Landy, Conor McCarthy 2020: a "pro-Israel US group ... A Jewish organization whose declared mission includes fighting antisemitism, combating hate, and standing up for Israel" [120]
  • Ben White, Journal of Palestine Studies 2020: "Israeli officials, as well as Israel advocacy organizations internationally, have a long history of charging Palestinians and their allies, as well as Israel’s critics and human-rights campaigners, with anti-Semitism" and gives ADL as an example of such an organization (noting ADL in 2009 opposed Desmond Tutu winning a Nobel because he was critical of Israel) [121]
  • Lara Friedman, The University of the Pacific Law Review 2023: "pro-Israel organization" [122]
  • ADL's lobbying spending increased ~4x in recent years [123]
  • Equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism: [124]
  • More citespam of reports of criticism of ADL as too pro-Israel and/or willing to equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism: The Guardian 2024; The Intercept 2024; The Nation 2024 and 2022; Jewish Currents 2023, 2022, and 2021; Forward 2020; In These Times 2020; Boston Review 2019; JTA 2018; MEMO 2014 (describing ADL as "one of the most active Zionist organisations in the US") and 2010 ("Anti-Defamation League beclowns itself, again")
  • I do not see evidence that it has a reputation for reliability, e.g. for fact checking and accuracy; what I see is that it has a reputation for being a pro-Israel advocacy org and lobbying group; the lobbying in particular is a red flag: no lobbying group is an RS, in my opinion, categorically

As such, it is not an RS for this topic, generally unreliable. Levivich (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich Actually there is at least one other advocacy and lobbying group in the RS list here : The Southern Poverty Law Center. Vegan416 (talk) 05:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a US civil rights group working against racism in the US, for the US; it's an advocacy group, not a lobby group, because advocating for civil rights isn't lobbying on behalf of a third party. The ADL very explicitly lobbies on behalf of Israeli (foreign) interests. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323 Actually The Southern Poverty Law Center has a lobby arm as well - The SPLC ACTION FUND. They admit it themselves. See here for example - https://www.splcactionfund.org/news/2023/03/01/splc-action-fund-pursues-systemic-change-congress. And the question if certain group works for Americans behalf or other people's behalf has absolutely zero relevance to the question of its reliability. This in clearly a WP:NOTFORM. Drop that line of argument. Vegan416 (talk) 06:50, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't be absurd. Of course being a lobby group has a bearing on reliability. A lobby group is paid to influence: it's perhaps the clearest conflict of interest. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say that being a lobby group doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter who you are lobbying for. And the The Southern Poverty Law Center is also a lobby group as I have shown. Get into the link I posted. They freely admit it. Vegan416 (talk) 07:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to "the question if certain group works for Americans behalf or other people's behalf" – regardless of the advocacy/lobbying question, there is a clear gap between a group working on behalf of US citizens and residents and the foreign influence of a group working in the interest of another country/its dependents. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

No. Drop that line. This may be of importance as an argument inside some internal American political argument, but it has absolutely no bearing on the question of reliability in wikipedia. Vegan416 (talk) 08:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

This is an RFC about reliability on the IP conflict and we are talking about a literal lobby group that is open about its (paid) role to influence public opinion about the topic. That's a conflict of interest; the opposite of independent. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

1. Yes. But I'm not talking specifically about the IP necessarily. I'm talking about reliability in the relevant fields for the SPLC. The SPLC is a lobby group in whatever fields they lobby (which might BTW contain also IP incidentally, but that requires further research), and therefore according to your logic should be declared unreliable in those fields.
2. I don't understand tour comment about the payments to ADL. Who do you think is paying the ADL and how is this relevant here?

Vegan416 (talk) 10:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

SPLC's reputation is not great either: [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] [133] Levivich (talk) 07:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich I definitely agree with that. So will you support reducing its reliability if and when such an RfC will be submitted? Vegan416 (talk) 07:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. There are signs that it is a fairly parallel case to the ADL as a group that once did some good work, but which has now clearly lost its way. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Kudos for the consistency. I have limited time to spend on wikipedia, and submitting an RfC on the The Southern Poverty Law Center is not in the top list of my projects. But maybe it will happen one day... Vegan416 (talk) 07:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That's my view of it, too, that ADL and SPLC are parallel cases. They're demonstrations that power always corrupts. They are victims of their own success: having gained the stature of authoritative neutral arbiters, it's clearly been too tempting for some to avoid using that stature for political gain, and once they sacrifice their neutrality, their reputation soon follows. Levivich (talk) 19:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that the ADL ever presented itself as "neutral". Neutral between whom? It was definitely never neutral between antisemites and Jews or between Israel and those who wish to delete it.

I also don't know if I agree with the way you present the analogy between the ADL and the SPLC, but I don't know enough about the SPLC. Maybe you can bring the 3 worst things done by the ADL and the 3 worst things done by the SPLC (according to your view) and we can compare them? Vegan416 (talk) 19:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

SPLC is currently green on the RSP list, so building an argument for its unreliability should really happen in a different thread. If we compare ADL to SPLC and they come out the same or ADL comes out better, by current consensus that would make ADL green; if SPLC comes out better that wouldn't help judge if ADL should be green, yellow or red. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 The sources clearly demonstrate a severe bias in matters AI/IP, inclusive of weaponizing charges of antisemitism for political purposes in this area. Selfstudier (talk) 17:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 - lobby organization with zero expertise in the topic, the ADL has expertise in some topics but this is not one of them. Id add the following source to those showing its unreliability on the topic: Finkelstein, Norman G. (2008-06-02). Beyond Chutzpah. University of California Press. p. xiii. ISBN 978-0-520-24989-9. Among other propagandistic claims in the ADL "resource for journalists" one might mention these: the "Arab forces were significantly larger" than Israel's during the 1948 war (p. 2); "by May 1967, Israel believed an Arab attack was imminent" (p. 6); it was "understood by the drafters of the [U.N. 242] resolution" that "Israel may withdraw from areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip consistent with its security needs, but not from all the territories" (p. 9); "Israel has shown the greatest possible restraint and makes a determined effort to limit Palestinian casualties" (p. 27); "Most Palestinian casualties are individuals who are directly engaged in anti-Israel violence and terrorism" (p. 27); "Settlements . . . do not violate international law" (p. 31); and "Neither international law nor international statute calls for a Palestinian 'right of return' to Israel" (p. 32). These assertions have been wholly refuted both by Ben-Ami and by the mainstream scholarship cited in this volume. It is not a scholarly organization, it has no expertise on the topics of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, Zionism, anti-Zionism, history of the Middle East. It is purely, in this realm, a pressure organization that uses misinformation and disinformation to push a false narrative. nableezy - 18:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Oo, err ... those last two in particular are pretty dodgy: objectively false statements about international law. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  The Most Palestinian casualties are individuals who are directly engaged in anti-Israel violence and terrorism has never been true either. Literally never. nableezy - 19:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  You cannot use a controversial source like NF to disqualify other sources. Other RS dispute his factual claims here. For example regarding NF claim that this sentence from ADL "In May 1967, events in the region led Israel to expect that an Arab attack was imminent" is false see here (second page): "In 1967 Israel preempted what many of the state’s decisionmakers believed was an imminent Arab attack". I can go on with regard to all the other claims NF makes here, but then someone would probably say that is WP:NOFORUM, so I'll stop here. Vegan416 (talk) 19:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  To reduce Beyond Chutzpah to Finkelstein and whatever personal reputation he may have is to lose sight of the context of publication. This is not some WP:SPS blog post that Finkelstein made; it's a monograph published with a university press, and publishers have systems and processes of review. Had Finkelstein submitted as a manuscript an unsupportable screed without grounding in the scholarly conversation, the University of California Press wouldn't have published it. That they did publish it indicates we should not dismiss out of hand the book and what it reports. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 19:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  This doesn't change the fact that other RS dispute his claim, and support the ADL claim on this point. Disputes between RS about facts (and needless to say opinions) are extremely common. Why should we trust in this case NF more than the RAND corporation? Vegan416 (talk) 19:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Is that a serious question? A university press versus a think tank? Iskandar323 (talk) 21:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, thats just silly. A work of scholarship published by the University of California Press is WP:SCHOLARSHIP, which is our highest tier of reliability. You calling it "controversial" is cute but not important. nableezy - 20:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Finkelstein (a controversial source, as we can see from the thread up the talk page) is disputing a 2006 ADL publication called "Israel & The Middle East: The Facts", which can be found on scrbd but not on the ADL website, but I don't have access to scrbd or the Finkelstein book, so hard to judge this. Some of the issues NF contends are issues of interpretation (e.g. the balance of forces in 1948 or what Israel believed in May 1967) whereas there are some factual claims (e.g. that most casualties were not civilians) that indeed appear to be false, but I'd need to see the wording of the original before being certain. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - Whether we consider the ADL reliable for verifying facts re the I/P conflict (or not), they have a reputation of being at the forefront of fighting antisemitism… and THAT is enough for us to say that their attributed opinions are absolutely DUE and should be mentioned. Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Don’t think that’s true at all, when those opinions are treated as noteworthy by third party sources then sure, but including their opinions sourced to their own publications? Hard pass. nableezy - 19:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• There is a splendid model of exemplary methodology, the very impressive paper by L. Daniel Staetsky, Antisemitism in contemporary Great Britain A study of attitudes towards Jews and Israel Institute for Jewish Policy Research September 2017, which came out at the tailend of a year of furious claims about the Labour Party and Corbyn's antisemitism problem (which led, with newspaper hysteria, 87% of the Jewish community according to one poll, stating that they would be afraid /consider moving to Israel, if Labour won - which the ADL's recent panicking of American Jews mirrors). Editors should familiarize themselves with Staetsky's sober analysis (it sets a scholarly benchmark for these things), and compare the way the ADL handles the issues. The latter looks shabby by comparison. No one would dissent I presume from the the ADL remains an important indeed indispensable resource for hate crimes generally, but their record on the I/P issue is, unfortunately, one of polemical defensiveness re Israel, and almost total silence about human rights abuses, which NGOs of global standing routinely cover, in book length studies every other year. That silence, and the way it otherwise blurs important distinctions to make out the Palestinian cause is strongly contaminated by antisemitism, undermines its credibility there. Put it this way, it has, certainly recently, discredited itself. Antisemitism is widely studied, clinically, by many distinct agencies and numerous scholarly works. It is not as if, were the ADL to shut down, our knowledge of antisemitism would suddenly dry up. It is, after all, such an obviously outrageous phenomenon that it scarcely escapes even the dullest observer.Nishidani (talk) 20:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 when it comes to the I/P conflict. Obviously it is a highly WP:BIASED source on that and could never be used on the topic without attribution, but that alone wouldn't make it unreliable. The real problem is that recent coverage has made it clear that their biases tainted their factual reporting to the point where it has harmed their reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; see eg. [134][135][136] - they can still be cited via a third party, but we should avoid citing them directly on this. While it is true that they aren't generally described as publishing deliberate lies (which is why I'm for "generally unreliable" rather than deprecation), that alone isn't sufficient to make something a WP:RS. I don't think they should be cited as a primary source for opinion on this topic, either (outside of situations where it itself is the topic of discussion.) Most sources today treat them as an advocacy organization when it comes to Israel, and I do not feel that advocacy orgs, think-tanks, or other lobbying organizations that lack a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy should be used even for opinions; there is simply nothing notable or meaningful about a "hired gun" churning out the perspective it is being paid to churn out. --Aquillion (talk) 20:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict per the highly compelling arguments of Simonm223 and Dronebogus. JeffSpaceman (talk) 00:06, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 with regards to Israel/Palestine. There are perhaps situations where its comments have some relevance due to its direct involvement, but hard to think of them.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3. I don't consider pro-Israel bias alone to make ADL unreliable, but the above mentioned examples of false claims do. Cortador (talk) 09:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2/3. I find this particular question bizarre. ADL has absolutely no expertise on Israel-Palestine itself, and I cannot imagine why anybody would cite it in that topic area. Almost none of the comments above actually relate to ADL's claims about I/P but rather to its claims about antisemitism, the topic of the survey below. Although I cannot imagine why anyone would want to cite ADL on I/P, none only one of the comments above gives an example of ADL making false claims about the topic, and therefore "generally unreliable" would seem excessive. In summary: no reason to doubt reliability for facts about I/P but no reason to cite it on this topic. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC) [update: I missed one example, given by Nableezy, of a 2006 "fact sheet" about Israel/Palestine including false facts about the conflict. I think this pushes me towards option 3, although I can't see the fact sheet online. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)]

  Believe I posted false claims about the conflict unrelated to antisemitism. nableezy - 11:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not false. At most controversial. Vegan416 (talk) 11:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  The claim that most Palestinians killed were involved in violence against Israel is false. The claim that settlements are not illegal is false. But kudos for modifying your earlier comment here. nableezy - 12:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  where and when did the ADL make such claims? Vegan416 (talk) 12:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  It’s in the citation I offered above. nableezy - 13:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  The citation you offered is from a book that claim to quote on a ADL document from 2005 (called "Israel and the Middle East: A Resource for Journalists"). But this ADL document is no longer available as far as I could check. Maybe you can find it? Apparently it was some booklet or PDF file or webpage that nobody bothered to archive. So you see, there are serious multiple problems with your argument that this evidence can serve to prove that the ADL is not reliable on factual claims:

  1. It is about claims of the ADL that were allegedly made 19 years ago. How is it relevant today?? If you had to go 19 years ago to find factual errors of the ADL, then it seems to me that they are pretty reliable on the factual side.

  2. Furthermore, it seems that these alleged quotes cannot be checked in their context, and that matters a lot. For example the claim that most Palestinians killed were involved in violence against Israel, might be correct in some context such as if talking about some particular war or operation, where indeed this was the case. And the quote about the settlements says "Settlements . . . do not violate international law". There is an ellipsis in the middle, and we have no idea what text was omitted. Maybe it said that there are some International Law scholars that claim that the settlements don't violate international law. If that's the case then the claim is actually correct, even if nowadays these scholars are in a small minority. But we don't know what the context was in both cases, because we don't have the primary source.

  3. Furthermore, it seems that these alleged quotes cannot be checked and verified against the primary source, which appears to have been lost. This point is particularly relevant because NF the author of this book is (beyond dispute) extremely biased against Israel, and also was found to make at least some egregious errors in his work, as had been pointed in the discussion about him above. While these allegations may not be enough to disqualify him as a reliable source in wikipedia, they definitely undermine using him as a source to disqualify other sources, when his claims cannot be verified by other sources. Vegan416 (talk) 14:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's actually a rather good demonstration that the ADL has been unreliable for the last two decades. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  This will only be true if you can you show factual errors of the ADL regarding IP from the last say 5 years, rather than from 19 years ago (Assuming those things from 19 years ago are indeed incorrect. See points 2 & 3) Vegan416 (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Uh huh, since NF's books appear to rather more reliable than the ADL on the face of it. Selfstudier (talk) 16:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I missed this example nableezy. That does appear to be a case of some false claims of fact, though I can't actually see what the 2006 publication was as it doesn't seem to be online at all. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I’m sure I can find others, but there’s an eclipse out here so I’m spending the day outside and then in the car driving home for god knows how many hours. Will go back for more sources later. nableezy - 18:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1: Generally Reliable. A reliable source is not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective, according to WP:BIASED. Many NGOs, which are considered reliable, illustrate this point. ADL is an opinionated source that is openly pro-Israeli, for example, they openly say that "ADL works to support a secure Jewish and democratic state of Israel, living in peace and security with its neighbors" and "ADL speaks out when anti-Israel rhetoric or activism engages in distortions or delegitimizes Israel, crosses into antisemitism when it demonizes or negates Zionism, and uses anti-Jewish assertions and tropes". To be considered a reliable source, an organization is required to have good reputation for fact checking. When using *any* source, it's crucial to distinguish between opinion pieces and research, and to properly attribute opinions. Regarding ADL, their reputation for fact-checking in research papers has been excellent for over a century; thus, relying on them for facts presents no issue. Editors should exercise normal consideration of controversial topics and consider using attribution where necessary. For example, claiming something is or is not a "hate symbol" is more a matter of opinion than fact, serving as an example of something that should be attributed if disputed - but this is normal for every reliable source - that's why we use the word "generally". Marokwitz (talk) 05:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  So this part: "ADL speaks out when anti-Israel rhetoric or activism [...] when it [...] negates Zionism is the real problem – because this is a mission to curtail free speech. You can't really be civil rights group AND be such an openly politically biased entity that you actively go after individuals and groups for simply opposing your chosen political ideology. That's more than a little unhinged – more so even than the rest of its mission as a US (not Israeli) NGO that isn't registered as a foreign agent (FARA). And editors have pointed out numerous issues with the ADL's presentation of facts; there's a lot of not listening here. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  Iskandar323, like you I disagree with how the ADL understands anti-Zionism but can you show me the policy that says a source has to be committed to unlimited free speech before we consider it reliable? The question isn't whether it's really a civil rights group or not; it's whether it's reliable for facts. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Let's put it this way: I can't imagine another source presented as an RS with a stated mission to oppose those that reject its political position. All media has bias, but stating it is your mission to actively oppose certain politics is the hallmark of a determinedly agenda-driven lobby group, not a truth-oriented organisation. Most RS media with have a mission statement about a commitment to truth and the like. Most RS rights groups will have a mission statement about a commitment to their rights specialty regardless of politics. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  southern poverty law center Vegan416 (talk) 19:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Iskandar323 @Bobfrombrockley Actually I'm not impressed at all by "a mission statement about a commitment to truth". This doesn't matter at all. Pravda also claimed to be committed to truth, so much that its name literally means "truth" in Russian. Yet we know that every second word in that paper was false.

  The proof of the pudding is in the eating. And the only way to asses reliability of a source is by looking at its actual record of factual reporting. This can be done in 2 ways:

  1. We do a systematic review and asses the rate of the sources factual errors. No source has 0 errors, but if the rate of errors is significantly higher than acceptable for RS then the source is unreliable. No such systematic review was presented against the ADL in this case. On the day of the eclipse @Nableezy have promised such evidence, but so far he didn't supply it.

  2. Since doing a systematic review requires a lot of work sometimes we can find a shortcut by WP:USEBYOTHERS. If indisputably highly reliable sources use the source under investigation we can assume that they had already systematically checked it "for us". I and others have presented sufficient examples of WP:USEBYOTHERS in the sections Reliable sources using ADL and Scholarly citations of ADL publications since 2020 from JSTOR below. Vegan416 (talk) 09:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Please both stop pinging me and stop bludgeoning this discussion. Everybody knows what you think now, you can give it a rest and let the community decide. Sorry, but I have things in the real world that are more important to me than this discussion, I’ll get to it when I get to it. nableezy - 12:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 - as an advocacy group, it must be held to higher standards than other sources (per K.e.coffman). The evidence presented by nableezy, Levivich and Aquillion show that the ADL is publishing questionable content, including on Palestine, and that other sources are simply not treating them as scholarly. starship.paint (RUN) 12:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2. I've never used it for anything related to the IP conflict as there are much better sources covering it. However no actual falsehoods have been presented, so no reason to downgrade it. The u:Brusquedandelion's examples are about people who disagree with their definition of antisemitism. Alaexis_¿question? 13:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 the evidence presented so far by Levivich and others speaks for itself. M.Bitton (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 despite the efforts to paint it as "questionable" above, I don't find anything compelling to list it as anything but a reliable source. Based on my own quick review of coverage, it appears that most media treat the ADF's reports as credible. Avgeekamfot (talk) 19:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 or 2 Reliable sources don't appear to question their reliability, and the evidence presented contesting their reliability isn't convincing. Obviously they're not a neutral party on the matter, but sources don't have to be - and they're generally regarded as authoritative. Toa Nidhiki05 12:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Part 2: antisemitism

What is the reliability of the Anti-Defamation League regarding antisemitism?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Loki (talk) 00:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Survey (ADL:antisemitism)

• Option 2 or 3. The ADL usually is reliable on antisemitism and antisemitic hate groups not involving the Israel/Palestine conflict. But it's very much not reliable on antisemitism when that antisemitism touches on the Israel/Palestine conflict in some way. This happens often enough that it hurts the ADL's reputation for fact-checking regarding this issue generally. Loki (talk) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 3. The intentional conflation of antisemitism with antizionism is a huge problem to make it a reliable source on these topics. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 00:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1. No evidence has been posted of unreliability - of them making false claims. It's unclear to me why we are even hosting this discussion without such evidence, and in the absence of it we shouldn't change ADL's rating. BilledMammal (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 Option 2 for pre-2016 andOption 3for 2016 and later I have no personal take on the matter, however, based on a cursory search, RS have repeatedly questioned the veracity of its statements regarding the topic, though these criticisms have been clustered over the last ten years. For example (not exhaustive):
  

• Jewish Currents has repeatedly and acutely examined and criticized ADL's standards and methods for evaluating and determining Antisemitism (e.g. [137]).
• Liel Leibovitz has criticized the ADL's statements on Antisemitism as being politically motivated (e.g. [138]).
• Isi Leibler has written the ADL has "lost the plot" and used its research into Antisemitism as a "partisan political issue", rather than an objective method of evaluation ([139]).
• As documented by Moment [140], the ADL has previously "cleared" allegedly Antisemitic persons before subsequently denouncing them as Antisemitic only after their evaluation itself has been criticized. This gives question to the reliability of their research or whether their statements are even based on an objective criteria at all.

Based on these, and other, sources I would say that pre-2016 content sourced to the ADL is fine for non-extraordinary claims and 2016 and later content it is generally unreliable and should not be used except with attribution and not with respect to WP:BLPs. After reading The Nation article linked by K.e.coffman, I'm tipped to Option 3 without respect to time period. Chetsford (talk) 01:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC); edited 01:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 for anti-Semitism not relating to Israel and Option 4 for anti-Semitism in the context of Israel. It has been shown that the ADL conflates criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, and has in fact modified the way it defines anti-Semitism to include anti-Zionist rhetoric, especially in the last few years. It should be noted that "in the context of Israel" should be very broadly construed here, given the ADL's history of defending anti-Semitic remarks when made by people and organizations with a pro-Israel stance ([141] [142] [143] [144]) even when those statements themselves do not directly seem to relate to Israel, when viewed alone. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  The ADL doesn't consider any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic or anti-Zionist (Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of the policies or actions of the government of Israel, or critiques of specific policies of the pre-state Zionist movement, in that it attacks the foundational legitimacy of Jewish self-determination and statehood.) [145] Alaexis_¿question? 13:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  The last source we should be using to define anti-Zionism is the ADL, which per this and the previous discussion routinely spouts nonsense on the topic. This above passage is actually damning in that it shows how the ADL creates its own strawman definitions as a means to manipulate the discourse. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3: This is an advocacy group so the threshold is higher than for a standard peer-reviewed secondary source. Recent coverage suggests that the sources is not only biased but may be unreliable. For example, The Nation dismantles ADL's claims that "U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel" and asks ...why does the media still treat it as a credible source? --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's possible that calling for the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world (from the river to the sea, you know), is not considered to be antisemitic by the Nation's James Bamford, but it's a matter of opinion and plenty of people disagree. Alaexis_¿question? 07:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Precisely. As I had demonstrated in the source I brought in my vote here - most people agree that calling for the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world is antisemitic. Vegan416 (talk) 07:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

'the only Jewish state in the world'. The Vatican is the only Catholic state in the world. That is a confessional state, however, not an ethnic state. To call for a state to drop its ethnic qualification for citizenship and extend recognition to that 50% of the population of Greater Israel which is non-Jewish is not tantamount for calling for the 'destruction' of that state. Were it so, it would be 'antisemitic' to subscribe to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and assert its relevance to the structural dilemma instinct in Israel's own self-definition as an ethnic state. Nishidani (talk) 12:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I dont understand the Vatican analogy. Do you deny that the Jews are an ethnic group? Vegan416 (talk) 12:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes, if a post puzzles one, it is better to think its content over for more than 3 minutes, particularly if the said post distils a very large topical literature and presumes familiarity with it. I decline your invitation to make a thread of the idea of 'the only Jewish state in the world' (Italy, Ireland, Germany,etc.etc. are the only Italian, Irish, German states in the world).Nishidani (talk) 12:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't invite you to anything. You commented on my comment without any invitation. Which is absolutely ok by me BTW. But I noted that you evaded my question about whether you deny the the Jews are an ethnic group. Vegan416 (talk) 12:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Probably because it is not germane to this discussion, run along now. Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

In fact Germany has a right of return law for ethnic Germans, so I'm not sure why you mentioned it. Fortunately Germany is not in an immediate danger of destruction unlike Israel. Alaexis_¿question? 13:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Germans didn’t steal Germany from another ethnic group. Dronebogus (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• It's also possible that intentionally conflating criticism of Israeli actions with "calling for the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world" is precisely the sort of stunt that makes ADL unreliable; thanks for the demonstration of how it works. Zero^talk 07:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Stop with the parlour tricks. The Nation neither mentions "calls for destruction" nor the "from the river to the sea" slogan. Not only can you not dismiss RS analysis with your own opinion/imaginings, but you also can not misrepresent a source for rhetorical purposes in a contentious topic area. Don't continue. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  The only pro Palestinian group that The Nation article mentions as being recently classified as antisemitic by the ADL in SJP. And I have shown, based on reliable sources, that the the SJP does indeed call for the abolition of Israel. you can find a collection of citations here User talk:Vegan416#Referenced to SJP calling for the ending of Israel Vegan416 (talk) 08:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3, with possibility for attributed opinion in some cases. As a huge organization (revenue over $100 million) whose very existence is tied to antisemitism, it is strongly to their own advantage to talk up the incidence of antisemitism. This conflict of interest makes it necessary to consider their pronouncements on the subject critically, just as we wouldn't take the pronouncements of an oil company on fossil fuels at face value. Zero^talk 02:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Seems like a classic #2 per what I wrote here. The subject of antisemitism includes a broad range of ADL's work. As this is separate from the I/P question, we're presumably primarily talking about its work on antisemitism that isn't connected to the I/P conflict. So, for example, this report on exposure to extremism on YouTube from a few years ago. It's a great resource that's been widely cited in academic work/the press. Would it be considered unreliable because it includes antisemitism among its forms of extremism? Is there any reason to doubt that part? It wasn't even written by ADL staff, but by Brendan Nyhan and his colleagues, one of the most respected scholars on extremism on the internet. Still, it's decidedly an ADL publication, hosted on their website. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1. First, I agree with the argument by BilledMammal above. Secondly, there is a big wave of antisemitism related to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I think it is actually worse than many other manifestations of antisemitism. Hence, the sourced views by ADL related to the conflict should be included even if they seem to be unfair to some people. My very best wishes (talk) 02:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Personal opinions on a source and beliefs that it has an important place in societal debate in a specific context are both unrelated to reliability. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 or 2. While I'm somewhat more at ease with the ADL's coverage of antisemitism unrelated to Israel–Palestine matters, its misidentification of antisemitism as pertains to organizations and people involved with politics connected to Israel–Palestine is serious enough that it's difficult to still consider the ADL credible on the topic more generally. I quoted from Oxford University Press' Antisemitism: A Very Short Introduction a couple times in the above thread to warrant my sense that in particular, the ADL's conflation of criticism of Israel with antisemitism is well out of step from the field. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1: Generally reliable. No evidence was shown of the ADL making false claims. In particular, its view that antizionism is sometimes a type of antisemitism is quite mainstream. For example, in 2016, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance adopted a Working Definition of Antisemitism, one which subsequently was officially recognized by various legislatures and governments, foremost among them, the United States and France, which endorsed the equation of certain manifestations of anti-Zionism with antisemitism.

And here are several references to RS which include support the claim that antizionism is antisemitism:

https://books.google.co.il/books?id=767fCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.co.il/books?id=BHtrEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA448&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/29/comment Vegan416 (talk) 07:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3Chetsford and Hydrangeans have explained it well.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 09:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 also as discussed before, ADL's conflation of antisemitism and antizionism has received widespread criticism, including increasing internal dissent from its own staff. Their figures on antisemitism has been put into question by RS like the Guardian and the Nation. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 3 generally reliable except when Israel is involved. Entirely unreliable where Israel is involved. Simonm223 (talk) 09:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Considering the split above, shouldn’t it be a 1 (or 1 or 2) here, as Israel is treated separately and you consider them GREL with exception to that? FortunateSons (talk) 10:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I voted the same way, and no. 2 is green or yellow with a note. 3 is red with an exception. 1 would be green without qualifications. Loki (talk) 13:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Then I would apply the same to you: assuming a clearly divergent result, we would probably split it in two, the same way [[ Wikipedia

  Reliable sources/Perennial sources]] does HuffPost, where clearly different outcomes would be allowed, assuming the words used by @Simonm223 are meant the same way as they are generally used on Wikipedia.

  FortunateSons (talk) 13:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  No. Please don't reinterpret my !votes to be more permissive than I said. It is tedious. Simonm223 (talk) 16:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  My apologies. Would you be willing to clarify which additional considerations you would consider applicable that go beyond the obvious non-inclusion of Israel into your vote? FortunateSons (talk) 16:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  "except when Israel is involved" is an additional consideration. Loki (talk) 16:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Unfortunately the tendency of the ADL to conflate antisemitism with anti-zionism cannot be cleanly separated. Through this they have cast their judgment on the topic of anti-Semitism, in general, in doubt. In fact I will update my !vote due to additional review of the arguments above. Simonm223 (talk) 16:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 - usable with attribution for antisemitism not relating to Israel; and Option 4 (or option 3 if depreciation is impractical) for antisemitism in the context of Israel: The ADL has had a long-standing role, especially within the US, in identifying and critiquing patterns of antisemitism within society. Such assessments are rarely without controversy, and, as a particularly pointed advocacy group, the ADL should still be attributed when used as a standalone source (option 2). Where these assessments overlap with the IP conflict, for all the reasons outlined in the proceeding section, the ADL is not to be trusted and should not be used. It has a habit of both giving a free pass to antisemitic tendencies when the individuals involved align with it politically on IP, while also miscategorizing individuals and movements that fail to align with it politically on IP as antisemitic when they are not (including through the problematic conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism). This is pretty unforgivable, and its pronouncements on antisemitism within the context of the conflict (broadly construed, as mentioned by others) should be disregarded as deprecated/unreliable. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  You can't really both deprecate and not deprecate a source because we have an edit filter that warns when you add links to deprecated sources. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 13:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Ah! Well that would fall under the 'impractical' clause then. Didn't realise the filter kicked in like that. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 But only if the subject matter doesn't involve Israel in any fashion. I would even say restricting them to just their commentary on known right-wing groups would be best. Silverseren^C 14:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 pro-zionist lobbying organization that conflates anti-zionism (opposition to a nation with a well-documented history of human rights abuses) with antisemitism (hatred of the Jewish people). Dronebogus (talk) 16:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 or 4 ADL itself has now acknowledged that they count pro-Palestinian protests in the US as "antisemitic incidents" - this is an astoundingly dishonest misrepresentation of statistics. Even if a protest features no hostility or hatred towards Jewish people, if it features criticism of the Israeli government, Israeli politicians or the Israeli military, it is an "anti-semitic incident". The ADL is simply, by their own admission, making up these reports. This is nothing other than pure, politically-motivated disinformation. They should never be considered a reliable source. AusLondonder (talk) 17:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 as regards AS in general, Option 3 for AS in relation to Israel or the AI/IP area. Changing definitions to suit political objectives is classic Weaponization of antisemitism. Selfstudier (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 - because it is a pro-Israeli lobbying group that equates criticism of Israel or anti-Zionism with antisemitism, it is not reliable for the topic of antisemitism. See sources in my vote on the I/P question. Levivich (talk) 17:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. The specific problem raised by the sources is when Israel, Palestinians, and Zionism come up; it shouldn't be used in that context. But there's not much sourcing questioning its reliability in other contexts and it does have enough WP:USEBYOTHERS to be otherwise reliable, so when discussing antisemitism unrelated to the I/P conflict it remains fine. --Aquillion (talk) 20:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 for anything that does not involve Israel, Option 3 or 4 otherwise. JeffSpaceman (talk) 23:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 for matters unrelated to Israel, option 3 for matters connected to Israel. The ADL is a useful source for attributed opinion on antisemitism unconnected to Israel/Palestine, however it makes inaccurate statements with regards to pro-Palestinian "antisemitism" even taking into account an extreme zionist view of what antisemitism might constitute. Simply speaking, we should not be including their claims in this regard without a very good reason.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 with attribution, as it's widely used by reliable sources. The criticism of ADL (see the links provided by u:Chetsford and u:K.e.coffman) is primarily about their definition of antisemitism [146]. We should not assume that James Bamford's definition of antisemitism is right and the ADL one is wrong. I haven't seen any examples of falsehoods that they published. Alaexis_¿question? 07:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  First, “all definitions of antisemitism are equally (in)valid” is patently not true. ADL says antisemitism includes any criticism of zionism. There are Jewish people who oppose zionism and always have been, and I don’t think they’re self-hating Jews either. Secondly, plenty of examples of ADL publishing skewed/distorted information have been provided. So either you didn’t read the discussion very thoroughly or are deliberately ignoring those examples. Dronebogus (talk) 08:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Dronebogus Your claim that "ADL says antisemitism includes any criticism of zionism" is patently not true. In fact the ADL explicitly says here and here that not every criticism of Israel and Zionism is antisemitism. It only considers antizionism as antisemitic when it delegitimizes the existence of Israel as the Jewish manifestation of self-determination (as it goes against the principle of self determination uniquely for Jews only) or if it used well known antisemitic tropes. And in those cases the ADL position definitely matches the Working definition of antisemitism by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, which definitely carries more weight than the personal definition of antisemitism used by a certain James Bamford from The Nation, or even the personal opinions of entire editorial board of The Nation. Vegan416 (talk) 09:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  From the article: “The IHRA definition has been heavily criticised by academics, including legal scholars, who say that it stifles free speech relating to criticism of Israeli actions and policies.” Just because something is popular and politically correct doesn’t mean it carries more weight than other opinions. By that logic the opinion “homosexuality is evil” carries more weight than the scientific consensus that homosexuality is healthy and normal, because millions, possibly billions, of people agree with that statement and enshrine it in law. And no I’m not listening to anything the ADL says about itself because that’s the definition of a primary source, the last thing you’d go to in a controversial situation like this. Dronebogus (talk) 09:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  1. The fact that the IHRA definition has been criticized by some people does not change the fact that it is the dominant definition that was accepted by several democratic legislatures (including USA and France), by most mainstream media (this is after all what this The Nation's article laments about - why the mainstream media follows the ADL opinions on this. so the Nation itself admits that its view is not mainstream) and by many (probably most) academics in the field. At the very least you have to admit that it definitely doesn't carry less weight than the opinion of the writers in The Nation.
  2. The fact that the ADL sources are primary sources does not negate what I said. To say that "ADL says antisemitism includes any criticism of zionism", when the ADL says exactly the opposite, is a lie. Even if you don't believe they mean what they say, the fact remains that this is what they said.

  Vegan416 (talk) 09:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  On the “says” issue, I was speaking metaphorically. You’re missing the meat of what I was saying by arguing semantics. Really you’re just avoiding the whole point of this discussion— the ADL’s respectability is widely questioned —by delegitimizing any negative sources and making vague-wave appeals to authorities that are either unreliable and biased themselves (governments and the IHRA) or ephemeral (“most academics”) Dronebogus (talk) 10:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Dronebogus Although I'm vegan I do not avoid the "meat of the discussion" :-) But what it is? To me it seems that the "meat of the discussion" is that you think that the ADL should be disqualified because they think that antizionism is antisemitism (in certain conditions). Am I wrong? Vegan416 (talk) 15:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not just because of that, but because many sources linked from here show their coverage of antisemitism and I/P are unreliable and biased. Dronebogus (talk) 15:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 regarding anti-Semitism in general, and Option 4 regarding anti-Semitism in the context as per Brusquedandelion due to the ADL conflating anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Cortador (talk) 09:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1/2. Nobody seems to provide evidence for ADL being inaccurate in its factual claims relating to antisemitic incidents, so I remain of the view I expressed in the first thread about this: I believe ADL is a reliable source for facts in the topic area where it has expertise, e.g. in reporting on right-wing hate groups or conspiracy theories. The problem is about its judgement in using contentious labels such as "extremist", which are labels WP generally ought to avoid anyway. It is also the case that it is hasty in labelling Israel criticism as antisemitic and fails to distinguish between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. For this reason, we should not say "X is antisemitic", citing only ADL. However, as it is heavily cited and notable, it would often be noteworthy for us to say "ADL describe X as antisemitic", balanced with noteworthy opposing views where applicable. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. I have many, many, many grievances with the quality of the ADL’s coverage in my specific topic area (crime, especially high profile far-right motivated crime). However, deprecation is stupid, and generally unreliable is too much, so option 2. PARAKANYAA (talk) 14:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  As you've voted "additional considerations apply", could you be more specific about your issues? Which additional considerations do you think should apply? Loki (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  The ADL is widely used onwiki to a degree that is disproportionate in articles on hate groups/crimes etc, which is worse because there are almost always better sources around. Their problems in this field go beyond bad research on hate symbols. Also as said before they conflate pro-Palestine activity with things like neo-Nazism in their classification of antisemitism - which is misleading.

  I think they should be okay to be used when it's considered appropriate to add that the ADL considers them a hate group but there should be additional considerations regarding including their fact-based work. My opinion generally is they aren't "generally unreliable" at all but that they are far from "generally reliable". Awkward middle ground where I think they're usable in some circumstances. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1: Generally Reliable. A reliable source is NOT required to be neutral according to WP:BIASED - and obviously, this org is opinionated, however, ADL, and particularly its scholarly research arm, ADL Center for Antisemitism Research (CAR) is a respectable organization with a peer-review process and upholding academic best practices. Marokwitz (talk) 05:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 - an advocacy group, it must be held to higher standards than other sources (per K.e.coffman). When this source conflates antisemitism and anti-Zionism, evidence by Levivich (previous discussion), Aquillion (previous discussion) and Brusquedandelion, it should not be considered a reliable source on antisemitism. starship.paint (RUN) 13:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Chetsford, Levivich and others who have demonstrated that it's an unreliable source on antisemitism. M.Bitton (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per others above and the fact that their definition of anti-semitism is widely accepted by both reliable sources and aligns with other relevant organizations/authorities. Avgeekamfot (talk) 19:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 unless we develop a special method for covering the prior definition of antisemitism (roughly, against Jews) versus the one currently held by some institutions (roughly, against Jews or Israel) with clarity. Certainly, we do not try to conflate then 1820 definition of the term "gay" with its 2020 usage, and would offer clarifying text wherever there might be confusion. To suggest that it is a mere clarification is wrong. Even before the existence of the state of Israel, large portions of religious Jewery resisted the effort because the religious conditions for that nation to arise had not yet been met. We should no more hold that what one set of Jews feel is important to Judaism is right and another wrong than we should hold that one set of Christians are the true Christians. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Nat, what does this have to do with this specific source’s reliability? The implication of what you’re saying is that any source that uses any definition of antisemitism is generally unreliable. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 Highly reliable on this specific subject matter, and per BilledMammal, the evidence to contest their notability in this area simply doesn't exist - while many, many sources treat them as authoritative, to the contrary. Toa Nidhiki05 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Part 3: hate symbol database

What is the reliability of the Anti-Defamation League's database of hate symbols?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Loki (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Survey (ADL:hate symbols)

• Option 2. The ADL's database of hate symbols is generally reliable but only for the narrow use case of identifying if a symbol is used by hate groups. Other background information on symbols in the database is not reliable because the ADL does not correct the background information in its entries even when clear factual errors are pointed out to it. Loki (talk) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1/Option 2. Reliable for whether something is a hate symbol, additional considerations apply for the historical background of the hate symbol - generally, we should prefer sources focused on the historical background. BilledMammal (talk) 00:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 in the way described by Loki. RS source the database for basic facts (e.g. [147], [148], [149], etc.), therefore, we must accept the database as a reliable source for basic facts. Chetsford (talk) 01:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 in the sense that when we say e.g. Amnesty International is generally reliable, we're not necessarily saying it's reliable for some biomedical claim it makes in the course of its advocacy. Likewise the ADL is an authority on extremism, hate speech, etc. This list is not an ideal source for, say, the ancient history of a symbol before it was adopted by some extremist group, but can be used for the fact that it's been adopted by that extremist group (and how that group uses it). I.e. reliable for its area of expertise, which is the primary value of the hate symbols projects. In other words, what I said here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1: Generally reliable. As per Rhododendrites. Vegan416 (talk) 07:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 at the end of the day ADL is a primary source with many controversies, any hate symbols data should be at least verified by secondary RS reporting on the matter. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's a primary source for a claim such as "The ADL considers x a hate symbol". It's a secondary (or tertiary if using other secondary sources) source for any claims we might make about the symbol itself. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:11, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 3 A year ago I would have said Option 1 here but the poor standards of judgment the ADL has shown regarding Israeli violence in Palestine has weakened its reputation across the board. Attribution and avoidance of wiki-voice is required. Even for this. Simonm223 (talk) 09:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Revising my !vote based on further discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 13:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 within the area of specialty, Option 2 otherwise: the identification is generally without major issues and used by others, but the criticism regarding background errors and comparable issues was not adequately addressed, as per Rhododendrites. FortunateSons (talk) 10:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 3: The ADL has some clear inaccuracy on the fine detail of hate symbols – not least on their origins and symbology – but appears to be relied on as a source for the basic identification of symbols that have been used/misused by hate groups. For information on the symbols themselves, it should not be a source of first choice, with it seemingly conducting flawed primary research then presented in a database without any details on authorship or the referenced sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 Because of the issues with some of their commentary on certain symbols being inaccurate, as noted in the previous discussion. The more specific in detail and history they get, the more likely they are to introduce errors. So usage of their hate symbol database should be careful and, preferably, backed up by an additional separate source. Silverseren^C 14:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 the database can be used to identify something as a hate symbol. It should not be used for information on the symbol’s history or deeper meaning. Dronebogus (talk) 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 Attribution seems best, since asserting that something is a hate symbol is different to stipulating the use of it by some persons or a group.Selfstudier (talk) 17:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 3 Given the discussion above, it is clear ADL does not have a reputation for honesty and integrity. The organisation's CEO has effectively identified Jewish Voice for Peace as an antisemitic hate group. I simply can't see how they can be trusted. AusLondonder (talk) 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Tbh I don't really care about this one, I find this issue to be rather silly. I mean, a symbol is a symbol, and it's trivially easy to identify or source when a hate group uses a particular symbol. It's WP:BLUESKY obvious that, for example, the crucifix is sometimes used as a hate speech symbol, e.g. when the KKK burns one on a Black person's front lawn. I don't need the ADL to tell me that. I don't need the ADL to tell me that the swastika is sometimes used as a hate speech symbol by, e.g., the Nazis and neo-Nazi groups. "Sometimes used as a hate speech symbol according to the ADL" is a stupid statement, IMO, because that's probably true for a huge amount of symbols, it doesn't really say anything. As has been pointed out, many numbers are used as hate speech symbols by hate groups. So what? More useful would be something like, "The KKK uses the crucifix" or "The crucifix has been appropriated as a symbol by some hate groups such as the KKK," but again, don't really need the ADL for that, as the sources about the hate group will make that point. The ADL's database is a convenient database for collecting and searching for symbols used in hate speech, but I'm not sure it's a very useful RS for Wikipedia for this, because there will be better RS available for notable hate groups. Because of ADL's unreliability with regard to Israel and antisemitism, and because it's a lobbying and advocacy group, I think "option 2" is the appropriate option for content outside of I/P or antisemitism, including what it has to say about symbols being used as hate speech (that don't involve Israel or antisemitism; for those, option 3 per my votes above). Levivich (talk) 17:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think this issue matters more than you think it does, because "notable hate group" is a much much broader category than "hate group everyone has heard of". The Aryan Brotherhood prison gang is a notable hate group; can you identify their symbols? The Order of Nine Angles is a notable hate group; can you identify their symbols without clicking on that link? Loki (talk) 17:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  What I mean is I can identify their symbols without needing the ADL; I can use sources about Aryan Brotherhood or about Nine Angles in order to identify their WP:MAJORASPECT symbols. ADL's Hate on Display database isn't a WP:BESTSOURCE for this. I think it's a tertiary source that compiles secondary sources. The articles don't cite their sources, or even describe their sources. They don't list authors or a journalistic policy. It's neither scholarship nor journalism. It's not even as reliable as an encyclopedia like Britannica or, well, Wikipedia (which at least in theory cites sources). It's basically an unattributed group blog. Arguably WP:EXPERTSPS if it can be shown that, today, ADL is considered an expert on hate speech (that might be a case that could be made). On consideration, I could be persuaded that it's EXPERTSPS on hate speech and hate symbols (so option 1) if someone were to post some recent scholarship citing it as an expert on these topics. Levivich (talk) 17:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2. Some usability as a database of basic facts, where it sees significant WP:USEBYOTHERS and is quoted authoritatively (and where relatively few high-quality sources have cast doubt on it), but as an advocacy org it should generally be attributed anyway. --Aquillion (talk) 21:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 or option 4. As the individual who first brought this up, I'm surprised that some editors seem eager to look beyond the foundational errors and lack of attribution or editorial oversight from the ADL to give them some kind of honorary pass here: As someone with an actual background in this material, it's painfully obvious that the ADL has no idea what they're talking about, are absolutely not authorities on this matter (despite presenting themselves as such), and are not by any means a reliable source on this topic. They're not even trying. For example, the Wolfsangel as an "ancient runic symbol"? What? And all this nonsense about every number under the sun being a "hate symbol" because some tiny group somewhere may have used it somewhere at sometime, to where even "100%" is listed as a "hate symbol"? Alert your local grocery store. Meanwhile, the ADL does not have its finger on the pulse of the topic enough to even provide an entry for the now popular "Black Sun", an actual "hate symbol". It's hard to imagine any organization with the ADL's funding and a podium cobbling together a factually worse and more useless "hate symbol database". Again, and this is important to stress: who wrote this? Where and what are their sources? When, where, who? We get none of that. Does the author have any background whatsoever in identifying these topics and their history? The answer seems obvious to me. On Wikipedia, it's easy to instead use peer-reviewed sources from actual experts, where people actually have the slighest clue about what they're talking about and where we can—imagine this—identify authorship and sources. This is just F-grade garbage and simply unacceptable. We should absolutely not be 'just accepting' the ADL's word for these important topics. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree the information on symbology is murky at best, and should never be the first choice of source on such things anyway ... but the main purpose of the database appears to be to attribute the use of certain symbols to certain groups. For such cases, What's the problem with attributing such an association to the ADL? It's not clear that they're generally unreliable on the basic identification of hate group use cases. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think the ADL is even reliable for this anymore. They can't get even the most fundamental facts straight and we have no idea who is making these entries, there's zero chronology, and basically just no editorial oversight. We have to do better than using F-tier sources like this. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Bloodofox, while you are right that they misidentify the Wolfsangel as an ancient runic symbol, I don't think you've provided evidence for widespread error. It is absolutely the case that "100%" is used as a hate symbol in a some specific contexts; the ADL is very obviously not claiming that every time "100%" appears it is used in this way. While there are clearly better sources for the history of the Wolfsangel, ADL might actually be the best source on the far right's uses of numbers. Similarly, of course peer-reviewed scholarly content is better than sources without named authors, but not listing sources or naming authors is not always an index of unreliability; for a database produced by a museum or scholarly organisation or for a standard tertiary source used in

  educational contexts it's extremely common not to list sources or name authors. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

So, again, and this is crucial, we need to know who wrote this. What are their credentials? And why should we just believe the ADL, given they provide zero sources and seem to have no editorial standards at all? We get no information here about authorship, not even a contributor list. It is typical to list authorship, even if with just general credits, in databases and handbooks, because when they're authoritative they involve experts. Otherwise why believe what they have to say, especially without any kind of references?

The ADL's database was most likely just put together by a contractor or two years ago: A non-expert, most likely a single or more than one contractor with no formal or even notable background in the topic and no tools beyond a few dated books and a Google search (like old versions of Wikipedia articles). That's the only way to explain the manifold errors throughout this poor showing of a database.

And yes, the errors are widespread and similarly unacceptable. I could go entry after entry, especially on historic topics. It'd be a sea of red ink. For example, each one of the rune entries has some ridiculous error that even an introductory runology handbook would resolve. A quick look reveals that the ADL's "life rune" entry provides butchered reconstructions of Elder Futhark names like "algis" (which should obviously be *algiz—with a -Z, the asterisk indicates a linguistic reconstruction) alongside the name "life rune". At no point do they alert the reader that the concept of the "life rune" (as opposed to the historic *algiz) is in fact not ancient but rather an early 20th century invented in völkisch circles, used officialy by Nazi Germany, and then later embraced in neo-Nazi circles. They instead imply this was "appropriated", as if it is just another item from the historic record. Wrong. There's a whole essay one could write about how bad the ADL's entry for even the most mainstream "hate" symbols, like the SS logo, is (for one, The SS logo did not come directly from Elder Futhark *sowilo but once again völkisch interpretations developing from von List's Armanen futhark, which is why they're typically called Sig 'victory' runes).

And again, while the ADL is asleep at the wheel on this topic, content to present bad 'research' on symbols from the late 90s, many other new symbols have popped up in common use, like the so-called Black Sun/Schwarze Sonne, which we now cover very well here on Wikipedia (no thanks to the ADL, whose poor coverage on the topic actually wasted a lot of our time there). While they've probably plundered some handbook on numbers (without attribution), they don't listen other important neo-Nazi symbols, like the so-called Irminsul of Wilhelm Teudt (but we do cover this). They also seem to be pretty averse to Christian nationalism symbols: there's a huge list they're missing.

Now if the ADL had an expert on staff, we wouldn't be having any of this discussion at all. Again, we have to do better than this. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The database, which is frequently updated but obviously by definition incomplete, says it is produced by ADL's Center on Extremism, which in turn describes itself as employing "a team of experts, analysts, and investigators" (i.e. it's a collective endeavour). Missing entries don't invalidate it; the database itself asks "Are we missing something?" and invites submissions.

The only error you point out re the "life rune" is the transliteration of z as s; ADL does not claim the "life" meaning is ancient (they use the term "so-called" and give the German original). Your interpretation of what they "imply" is beyond what is in the text. Nobody would use this database as a source on its ancient meanings; there's nothing inaccurate in how they report its contemporary usage by hate groups. Similarly, they don't claim the SS symbol comes "directly from Elder Futhark *sowilo"; they say "The SS symbol is derived from the "sowilo" or "sun" rune, a character in the pre-Roman runic alphabet associated with the "s" sound." Again, obviously we would prefer a scholarly source for the ancient history of its runic antecedents, but the ADL database is an excellent source for its contemporary usage by hate groups. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a "team of experts" they don't list (!) in a database riddled with basic errors. Sounds legit. No names, no authorship, no credentials. No dates, no chronology, no sources. "Experts" who clearly don't know the history of the symbols they're writing about. Again, you're arguing that we just take the ADL's word for whatever they say, and yet if they can't get the history of a symbol right, you expect that they're getting the rest right?

The slop the ADL is serving up as an entry on the 'life rune' (see how quickly I informed you of the term's actual history) is unacceptable and you are at this point making excuses for their F-grade fumbling with the historic record. You're saying that we should look the other way at the many errors in these entries related to the historic record and just believe what they say otherwise.

Should I go start listing more errors? At this point I'm doing the ADL's work for it. Any decent database on the "life rune" will explain where the phrase comes from and how it is was invented in early 20th century völkisch circles. Instead they just slap it next to bungled attempts at presenting reconstructions (from who knows where) as if it were just another historic name. It's not and that's important. The same goes with the SS logo. When discussing the SS logo, it is important to know that the SS logo differs in origin and use from the historic Elder Futhark S-rune and is instead directly from völkisch author Guido von List's 'revealed' Armanen runes as published in the early 20th century. This is supposed to be an authoritative database from experts but instead it reads like a half-baked contractor job.

You don't have to make excuses for the ADL. They could get this right at any time by bringing in experts. Just find a source written by actual experts and use that instead. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It feels like you expect a database of contemporary Hate symbols to be a scholarly compendium of their historical origins. You haven’t presented any evidence that the database is inaccurate for what it’s used for: describing how contemporary hate groups use these symbols. I’ll stop commenting on this thread now as any close has more than enough material to make their own judgement. BobFromBrockley (talk) 23:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It's obvious that a.) neither you nor I know who wrote these terrible entries and b.) that they're riddled with errors that any specialist (or anyone who has attended an introductory course on these topics) would immediately detect. If you choose to believe what's in those comedically bad database entries, ancient or modern, that's on you, but they're definitely not suited for English Wikipedia or any other project where reliability and authorship matters. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• And all this nonsense about every number under the sun being a "hate symbol" because some tiny group somewhere may have used it somewhere at sometime, to where even "100%" is listed as a "hate symbol? Alert your local grocery store." Given that the ADL explicitly says most uses of this symbol are not, in fact, white supremacist in nature this is a pretty disingenuous objection. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

And we should believe the ADL that "100%" is a notable "hate symbol" why? Did an expert write this entry? If so, who is that expert? Was it a contractor with Google? When did this become a symbol of notability? Is it still? When was this entry even written? We get absolutely no authorship information and 'just trust the ADL' (or their contractor/s!) simply isn't enough, especially given fundamental errors throughout entries that an authorative body like the ADL should know very well. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 with great obviousness. Certainly there will always be pushback by groups and persons associated with particular symbols, but that isn't relevant here. Zaathras (talk) 21:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem here is even basic accuracy. The ADL's database is riddled with errors and lacks any kind of attribution beyond just "ADL". There's nothing reliable about it. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3. Not only are there some major errors with the definitions of hate symbols, ADL appears to be unwilling to address the issue, which is more concerning. Cortador (talk) 09:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  What's the evidence that it's unwilling to address the issue? BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 or 2 Generally reliable per Rhododendrites. Sources treat them as an authority on the subject of hate symbols. Toa Nidhiki05 12:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• I'm merging the three discussion sections that would normally go here because these RFCs are all closely connected. Loki (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• In response to BilledMammal's response to my !vote on Section 1: (1) I see no evidence of RS saying SJP is a front for Hamas; (2) that's not how I read the plain language of the article; (3) correct, but this is part of a pattern of wild divergences in position that renders them inconsistent and, therefore, unreliable; (4) that's not how I read the plain language of the article. Chetsford (talk) 01:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Regarding (1) I don't see the ADL saying SJP is a front for Hamas either, just that they provided "material support". Regarding (2) and (4), to simplify this can you quote the sections that you interpret as the sources saying that ADL is pushing falsehoods? Regarding (3), I would need to see more of a pattern, rather than an isolated incident, and preferably in regards to matters of fact rather instead of opinion, before I can comment further on that. BilledMammal (talk) 01:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• On deprecating a single topic area. This RfC deals with three distinct topic areas. Potentially deprecating the source for a single topic would present editorial difficulties, as Loki has observed. That said, because we have no policy or guideline that precludes this, I'm inclined to believe this remains a valid option and the method we would use to apply it would have to be sorted out after the fact if it landed on that, potentially through further discussion. Chetsford (talk) 01:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm still concerned about this because the concrete meaning of a deprecation per WP:DEPS is:

  1. The source is generally unreliable.

  2. New users adding the source are reverted by bot.

  3. Any user attempting to add the source is warned not to.

  Part 1 can clearly be implemented for a single topic area but is no different from Option 3. Parts 2 and 3 do not seem to me to be reasonably possible to implement per topic area. So either it's deprecated for all topic areas, or it's just a pointed way of voting generally unreliable. Loki (talk) 13:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed, particularly with the last point. FortunateSons (talk) 13:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not keen on moving to deprecation without going through generally unreliable first, if we want to consider that separately following this RFC, we could do that. Selfstudier (talk) 13:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  As per previous experience any RFC for deprecation will likely end up being reviewed, especially in this area. So if anyone is advocating for deprecation they need to be making a very strong argument.
  There seems to be a general misunderstanding that its the next step up from generally unreliable, but deprecation goes well beyond that. It's for sources that are not only generally unreliable but completely untrustworthy (for instance publishing lies, losing a court case about those lies, and then deliberately covering up the fact that the lies had ever been published, and then lying about doing so). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• A source can't logically be completely untrustworthy (as opposed to merely unreliable) on a single topic. Any determination that a source is completely untrustworthy on any given topic should presume to it being untrustworthy on all topics. Since the standard for deprecation is generally linked to a penchant for dishonesty versus mere incompetence, it would be incoherent to posit that we could sometimes trust a habitual liar. Chetsford (talk) 18:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It would be a somewhat confused situation, but my comment was just to try and stop the discussion going off course and to point out that deprecation isn't "generally unreliable++". -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It is kinda, in the sense of RFC options on a scale of 1 to 4, at any rate, worse than unreliable. Selfstudier (talk) 12:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I should have said "isn't just 'generally unreliable++'". The 1-4 scale should maybe be changed so deprecation appears differently, 1-3 +D maybe. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

If it’s a binary choice between deprecation of ADL as a whole and no depreciation whatsoever, I support depreciation of ADL. The quality of their information ranges from bad (hate symbols) to worse (antisemitism) to outright propaganda and disinformation (I/P). If ADL was (nominally) representing any other group besides Jews it would be considered a far-right disinformation campaign. Nothing is lost by saying “avoid this”, and nothing is gained from “broken clocks are right twice a day”. Dronebogus (talk) 08:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I would concur here. While the ADL website has been a convenient source for hate symbols and general information on hate groups it is not a critical one for this, nor, as has been pointed out, even one with particularly academic methodology for inclusion. With its movement toward being an open advocacy / lobby group for Israel it is increasingly inappropriate for other uses. If we have to deprecate the whole thing, let's deprecate the whole thing. Simonm223 (talk) 13:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Antisemitism

I wanted to expand a bit on why I think that the arguments used by editors !voting for Option 3/4 are not good. Most of the arguments are based on the sources criticising their definition of antisemitism, such as this article in the Nation

“ “U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel,” warned the ADL press release... But much of the report was hype. Rather than attacks against Jews due to their religious or ethnic identity, many of the cited “incidents” were actions directed against Israel to protest the conduct of its war in Gaza—incidents... Many of the incidents were simply protests by civil rights organizations such as Students for Justice in Palestine. ”

The author evidently doesn't consider "simple protests" by Students for Justice in Palestine to be antisemitic. However this is his opinion. As an example, From the river to the sea slogan that was likely chanted during those SJP protests is widely perceived to call for the destruction of the world's only Jewish state, and hence antisemitic. Of course, others do not consider it antisemitic, and it's fine, we should describe all viewpoints. The problem with the !votes based on these sources is that they talk about the "veracity" or "unreliability" of antisemitism claim as if there is one true definition of antisemitism. Alaexis_¿question? 12:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

“Likely” chanted? And you’re complaining about verifiably? Dronebogus (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

So you think that they chanted "Two-state solution"? On a more serious note, here you can find them talking about the criteria Krain said the ADL counted any demonstration featuring pro-Palestinian chants such as “globalize the intifada, “by all means necessary,” “Zionism is terrorism,” and “from the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free.” Alaexis_¿question? 06:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

So ... Calling for a global uprising against injustice; calling out what is arguably a duck as being a duck; and calling for freedom. Not sure I get the part where any of that is anything but political. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323 Referring to the Jewish nation's right of self-determination as "terrorism" is definitely antisemitism according to the working definition of antisemitism by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, and also according to common sense. Vegan416 (talk) 07:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Vegan416: I guess it's good that no one said that then. Zionism is not the "right to self-determination"; it is a political ideology – you'll note the separate pages. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Zionism is the expression of the Jewish nation's right to self-determination. That is obvious. Vegan416 (talk) 08:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's a political expression. And it's freedom of speech to critique political expressions quite freely. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is not about of free speech at all. The ADL is not trying to have the US government throw people into jail for saying anti-Zionist things, by equating them with antisemitism. Since in the US even undisputed antisemitic speech is also protected by the First Amendment (as long as it's not a direct incitement for violence). It is a genuine debate about what is the definition of antisemitism. And whether you personally like it or not most people agree that saying that the Jewish nation doesn't have the right for self-determination and its expression, is antisemitism. Vegan416 (talk) 09:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I've already addressed this muddled conflation of Zionism, a political ideology, and the conceptual right to self-determination. But that's not the topic. Pertinently, you are not in a position to define what "most people agree", let alone determine that the ADL somehow represents what most people agree, with regards to anti-Zionism: you haven't provided RS evidence for any of this. You are assuming that the ADL's position falls within the mainstream, but you haven't actually demonstrated that. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know the validity of the statement "most people agree", but let's assume it's accurate for the sake of argument. In that case, wouldn't it be more precise to say that saying that the Jewish nation doesn't have the right for self-determination is about 74% antisemitic, 20% anti-Arab, etc. based on the demographics? Just putting this radical idea out there in the hopes that the ADL will pick it up and run with it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't forget the Druze, who in Israel don't like to be called Arab either. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It's certainly a complex and interesting question. For example, what happens if you apply the question to a smaller area? Instead of saying the entire Jewish state doesn't have the right to exist, someone says that a predominantly Jewish settlement that is half in Israel and half across the Green Line does not have the right to exist? Is that 100%, 50% or 0% antisemitic? Sentiment analysis is hard. Good luck to people trying compress language into categories. To their credit, at least the ADL seem to take the "it depends, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't" approach. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I would argue that this is one of the cases where the old 3D definition is actually superior to some of the more modern ones, despite the associated issues, making the answer to your question 0%. FortunateSons (talk) 12:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

What has that to do with ADL screwing up on antisemitism? Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Whether IHRA (or other modern definitions) is a fringe definition to use. I believe this not be the case, but this is one of the cases where another is clearer FortunateSons (talk) 13:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL takes the already controversial IHRA and expands its already undue protection of Israel even further by specifically equating AZ = AS, that's fringe in my view. Selfstudier (talk) 13:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It is broadly cited, reported and also used by multiple institutions and governments, I wouldn’t consider it fringe. FortunateSons (talk) 13:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

What's "it"? IHRA? It's controversial, add AZ = AS and its fringe. Selfstudier (talk) 14:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It is IHRA, sorry for being vague.

Every definition of Antisemitism is controversial, and IHRA appears to be one of the most broadly used ones.

AZ being partially AS, IHRA covering all or most of AS and combing both is not unusual if you are going to collect all antisemitism, particularly as some AZ (and related actions) are covered by IHRA. And even if it were unusual, it’s far from fringe. FortunateSons (talk) 14:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Who else does it besides the ADL? Selfstudier (talk) 14:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Use IHRA or describe some AZ as AS? The aggregation is one of the significant things where the ADL is premier and the reason they are broadly cited, particularly by media RS. FortunateSons (talk) 14:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/has-the-term-antisemitism-been-overused-or-overblown-beyond-usefulness/ Selfstudier (talk) 14:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

This seems to show discourse, not really an indication of being fringe, unless I am missing a specific part? FortunateSons (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Ury, but the fact he is pushing against a prevalent, possibly even dominant, view shows that the view he’s pushing against is not “fringe”. Some 43 countries have adopted the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Hundreds of regional and local governments have also adopted the resolution, including 33 states in the US. Unlike Miron and Ury, most mainstream American Jewish leaders — including President Joe Biden’s antisemitism czar, Deborah Lipstadt — support the IHRA definition. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope I am replying to the correct comment- this thread is very hard to read in mobile at this point - but, yes, Wikipedia does lend undue space to Trump's nonsensical statements. That doesn't mean we should do the same for the ADL's nonsensical statements regarding post October 7 antisemitism. If Wikipedia needs to speak to these claims we should handle it like we do climate change denial. Simonm223 (talk) 12:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Antisemitism and Zionism: The Internal Operations of the IHRA Definition Selfstudier (talk) 14:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

A biased and uncited article describing broad use is also not really an indication of it being fringe, merely controversial, which I (and most reasonable people) don’t dispute. FortunateSons (talk) 14:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I would actually add to @FortunateSons words that this article actually proves the opposite of fringe. Even Neve who is very much against this definition is forced to admit that it gained huge acceptance. Even in the academia "In the UK alone, three-fourths of all universities have taken it on board". Thanks for proving my thesis for me :-) Vegan416 (talk) 15:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier The view that AZ=AS (under certain conditions) is definitely not fringe. In the general public it enjoys a huge support. Definitely in the US where the ADL operates. This is evidenced by a landslide majority of 70% who voted for it in the house, against only 3% who voted against it. You may of course be dismissive of the hoi polloi, and say that only the opinions of scholars count. But the truth is that you cannot prove that for the academic world either. You gave no proof whatsoever that the view AZ=AS in considered fringe even in the scholarly world. The fact that some scholars object to AZ=AS doesn't make it fringe. To make it fringe you have to show that there is a consensus in the scholarly world that AZ is not AS, i.e. that the majority of scholars think that AZ is not AS. Nobody has shown that here. To sum up. If you want to declare it fringe and disqualify a source based on this then the onus of proof is on you, and so far you failed to do that. Vegan416 (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I never said AZ = AS is fringe, I said IHRA + AZ = AS is fringe and I said that is my view. Selfstudier (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure how IHRA+AZ=AS is different from AZ=AS. And if you admit this is just your personal view then this is clearly not a good enough argument... Anyway I think we have taken too much space on this. If you want to continue this particular discussion come to my talk page. If not then bye for now. Vegan416 (talk) 14:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

That depends on what you consider the line between legitimate and protected political speech and illegal violation of hate speech laws, which varies depending on the country. Arguing that People of Color should not be allowed to vote due to their race/ethnicity is also a criticism of liberal and egalitarian political values and expression, and could also be banned depending on your location. FortunateSons (talk) 12:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Also nothing to do with subject at hand. Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It does if some people are arguing that antizionism is generally or always not antisemitism. FortunateSons (talk) 13:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Might be, might not, ADL says it is, that's fringe. Selfstudier (talk) 13:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

As cited elsewhere, it generally doesn’t. It says that some is, a view that is not fringe. FortunateSons (talk) 13:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

They do IHRA + AZ=AS, that's like everything, fringe. Selfstudier (talk) 14:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

A expansion of IHRA to account for relevant and debated is not fringe unless you show it is, particularly if in line with the social and political discourse. FortunateSons (talk) 14:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Even going along with the dubious assertion that the slogan in question was a specific call for the destruction of a state (as opposed to a call for freedom, as the chant actually goes), the religious characterisation of Israel cannot be directly inferred to be the motivation behind such a call. Indeed, when the state in question is a racist, apartheid and now genocidal one, there are rather a plethora of secular, moral reasons that one could imagine being invoked. The religious profession of a mass murderer is hardly relevant to the question of whether or not to condemn them. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem with ADL is that it has expanded advocacy into activism in the Israel/IP area, even to the extent of bashing Jewish orgs that are sympathetic to the Palestinians. Here is Greenblatt ramping up the rubbish 40 beheaded babies claim and then in an interview with MSNBC says first that the head of Hamas called for a "global day of Jihad" (he didn't) and then declared that “anti Zionism is genocide." (never mind just antisemitic). In fact the whole interview is worth a listen, if that's what the ADL is espousing, well...Selfstudier (talk) 18:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That’s not ADL. That’s a tweet from Greenblatt’s personal account. We don’t need every ephemeral personal comment by the CEO to be true for a source itself to be reliable. Material in their reports goes through an editorial process in the way this individual’s kneejerk response to an emotional situation doesn’t. Has the ADL itself published the 40 beheaded babies claim? BobFromBrockley (talk) 00:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I think there is an issue in this RfC of different interpretations of Loki’s original question 2 of whether ADL is reliable “regarding antisemitism”. I took this to mean can we generally assume ADL’s factual claims are accurate in the topic area of antisemitism. Other editors (most of those arguing for option 3?) took it to mean should we call something antisemitic on the basis of ADL calling it antisemitic. I would agree with these editors that we shouldn’t, while still believing (on the basis of use by others and no presented examples of factual inaccuracy relating to antisemitism) that the ADL is a reliable source for facts in this topic area. Have I misread other editors’ interpretations? BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

"According to the ADL, Jewish Voice for Peace has engaged in antisemitism," and "according to the ADL, antisemitism has risen 10,000% since October 7" are two sentences that should not appear in Wikipedia, and that's why I vote 3 and not 2. If that makes sense? I do not agree with you that there is a distinction between "calling something antisemitic" and "factual accuracy." If they do things like call BDS antisemitic, then they are unreliable, about anything. Too partisan to be trusted. Levivich (talk) 09:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich I think that there is in fact a strong case that the JVP had indeed engaged in antisemitism or at least bordering on it. This opinion is not just the ADL position, but also appears in these RS:

In a book published in Indiana University Press: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=rEJFEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA114&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

In HaAretz: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-07-10/ty-article/has-jewish-voice-for-peace-crossed-the-line-into-anti-semitism/0000017f-e485-d38f-a57f-e6d7d4da0000

In The Forward: https://forward.com/opinion/391783/jvps-anti-semitic-obsession-with-jewish-power/

In NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/14/opinion/college-israel-anti-semitism.html

Also try to look open mindedly at the evidence presented by the ADL here:

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know

I agree that it might be farfetched to write in wikivoice "Jewish Voice for Peace has engaged in antisemitism" with a reference to ADL, but when it is attributed such as "According to the ADL, Jewish Voice for Peace has engaged in antisemitism," it looks fine. Or you can even make it like this for good measure: "According to the ADL's opinion, Jewish Voice for Peace has engaged in antisemitism". But there is no basis and no need to declare it unreliable on the issue of antisemitism. Vegan416 (talk) 10:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I really don't think it's a good use of this noticeboard to argue over whether JVP is antisemitic. It's really not the question at hand.

I would say that the question of whether we say "According to the ADL, Jewish Voice for Peace has engaged in antisemitism" and "according to the ADL, antisemitism has risen 10,000% since October 7" are not questions of reliability, but questions of due weight. I mean Donald Trump told endless lies, but we wouldn't remove his comments from our articles for that reason. If multiple RSs are reporting what ADL says, that's going to be noteworthy in some articles.

Reliability questions are whether we can say "David Duke attended the rally" or "'From the river to the sea' was chanted at the rally" with a footnote to an ADL report. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

If other RSes report what ADL says then we'd cite those other RSes. Same with anything else. But that doesn't mean we cite ADL directly.

I don't think we'd ever cite ADL for "so and so attended a rally" or "x was chanted at the rally" because ADL doesn't report on stuff like that. They're not journalism. We'd cite journalism for those kinds of facts. Levivich (talk) 12:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

It is not just JVP, it is also BDS "The ADL did not count resolutions calling for a boycott of Israel as antisemitic," the report said, "because they do not target individuals. However, these are antisemitic and contribute to the pressures faced by Jews on campus." (Tchah!). Selfstudier (talk) 12:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL is perfectly aware that the Palestinian slogan "From the river to the sea" corresponds exactly to a core article in the Likud party's foundational charter:-

The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

Since 1977 that has remained on its platform and Likud has been the dominant governing party over the last 45 or so years. So the ADL or whoever, in-citing the Palestinian version as 'antisemitic' is deliberately obscuring the fact that Likud, by that definition, would be 'antisemitic', in identical terms. Nishidani (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources using ADL

Per WP:USEBYOTHERS, how accepted and high-quality reliable sources use a given source provides evidence, positive or negative, for its reliability and reputation. In fact ADL data is widely used by RS

1. The Wall Street Journal. The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
2. The New York Times. The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
3. The Guardian. The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
4. Le Monde. The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
5. Philadelphia Inquirer. The numbers are attributed and there is some criticism of the approach by The Philly Palestine organisation.

So it's clear that RS do not treat ADL numbers as unreliable and if we deprecate ADL we'd be fail to follow our RS guidelines. Alaexis_¿question? 13:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think a bunch of sources, no matter how reliable, uncritically repeating a single report is a good measure of general reliability. Dronebogus (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Dronebogus Your personal opinion on this doesn't matter. I suggest you familiarize yourself with WP:USEBYOTHERS. It means precisely what @Alaexis said here, namely that the fact that undisputable reliable sources uncritically repeat claims by source X, confers some reliability on source X in and of itself. Vegan416 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It's uncritical in the sense of the news outlets neither praise nor bemoan the ADL as a source. It's not really news either. All the pieces are just churnalistic regurgitations of the findings of the ADL (almost certainly from a press release). The pieces just say: the ADL said 'this', without conveying any real sense of the outlets' trust in the ADL as a source whatsoever beyond acknowledging its basic existence as an organisation that draws up tallies of stuff. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

All of these uses are attributed to the ADL, so while it's not zero evidence of reliability, it's also not strong evidence. Loki (talk) 19:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Loki Your argument here is strange. The whole WP:USEBYOTHERS policy with regard to usage by high reliability newspapers is talking about cases where claims are attributed to another source. How else would you know that high reliability newspaper is citing a specific source, if it doesn't attribute it??? Newspaper don't carry footnotes like scholarly articles. Vegan416 (talk) 19:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Scholarly citations of ADL publications since 2020 from JSTOR

These were found by simply putting "anti defamation league" in JSTOR search box and limiting the search to start in 2020. This yielded 164 results. To determine the relevancy of each result and its context I had to look inside the articles. This is a time-consuming process, so I did it so far for only a small number of results. I might continue with it in the following days, if required, and if time permits, but even this small collection proves that there are quite a few scholars who view the ADL as a reliable source even for scholarly work. This is relevant to the reliability question because of WP:USEBYOTHERS.

2024:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep58112.11? cited about antisemitism (including in the Israel-Palestine context)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep58195.10? cited about antisemitism

https://www.jstor.org/stable/48756310? cited about extreme right and antisemitism

2023:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep53058.6? cited on hate crimes

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv34h08d2.7? cited about racism

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27255595? cited about extremism in general

https://www.jstor.org/stable/48707918? cited about extreme right

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3998/mpub.11442022.9? cited about extreme right

2022:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/48669297? cited about racism in the middle east

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27292094? cited about antisemitism

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv2vm3bb6.13? cited about antisemitism in Europe

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27185090? cited about extremism in general

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27185088? cited about extremism in general

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27185089? (and several more articles on the same subject that I'm too lazy to copy now) cited about extreme right

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27185099? mentioned as a source on on Anti-Government Extremism

https://www.jstor.org/stable/48722479? (and several more articles on the same subject that I'm too lazy to copy now) cited about hate crimes

2021:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27040075? PNAS article cites ADL on global antisemitism

https://www.jstor.org/stable/26979985? cited about extremism in general — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vegan416 (talk • contribs)

No idea what these are, clicking on the links seems to bring up random texts eg the first one for 2024 brings up "Closing Civic Space in the United States: Connecting the Dots, Changing the Trajectory"? Second one brings up "Chapter 3: Patterns of AGE across Countries" so I didn't bother reading any more after that, you need proper citations if we are to take this seriously. Selfstudier (talk) 11:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The JSTOR interface contains a "cite" button. If you click on it, it supplies you with the proper citation of the source. For example for the first 3 sources you will get these:

Kleinfeld, Rachel. “Notes.” Closing Civic Space in the United States: Connecting the Dots, Changing the Trajectory, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 2024, pp. 31–40

Molas, Bàrbara, et al. “Patterns of AGE across Countries.” Anti-Government Threats and Their Transnational Connections, International Centre for Counter-Terrorism, 2024, pp. 18–28.

Pantucci, Raffaello, and Kalicharan Veera Singam. “Extreme Right-Wing in the West.” Counter Terrorist Trends and Analyses, vol. 16, no. 1, 2024, pp. 106–11

I'm sure you can manage to do it on your own for the other references. Vegan416 (talk) 13:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

No thanks, these are obviously just passing references. Selfstudier (talk) 13:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if they're passing or not. Vegan416 is trying to establish reputation for reliability based on use by others, not notability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

But that's the whole idea of scholarly citations! Most scholarly articles do not rely on just one source but rather cite from many different sources which they regard to be reliable. Haven't you got any academic background? Vegan416 (talk) 13:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I know how to display a cite properly if that helps. Selfstudier (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not relevant. What do you think WP:USEBYOTHERS means? That we should only considers highly reliable source that rely singly on the source whose reliability we try to check??? This is a ridiculous interpretation. Scholarship (and high-quality journalism) do not work that way. Vegan416 (talk) 14:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

More straw men. Selfstudier (talk) 14:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Many of the sources here are thinktank reports rather than peer-reviewed articles. Limiting to the latter by filtering gives 32 articles since 2020 that mention the words "antisemitism" and "Anti-Defamation League". The majority of these treat the ADL as a reliable source, although a small number (e.g. Ben White in the Journal of Palestine Studies) criticise it and some are history articles that mention it without using it as a source. Particularly notable are Daniel Staetsky (praised as a model of excellent methodology by Nishidani elsewhere on this page) saying that his methodology builds on one of the ADL's surveys,[150] a terrorism researcher listing ADL's HEATmap in a list of useful databases on extremism,[151] and a review by a criminologist of various hate crime monitors that discusses ADL as a source precisely for this.[152] In other words, quite a bit of USEBYOTHERS data. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL may well be reliable for this or for that but there 3 RFCs, IP area, antisemitism and hate symbols. Stick to those. Selfstudier (talk) 14:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier Well, if you look at the next to last source I brought, from PNAS which one of the top tier of peer reviewed journals, you will see that it cites the ADL twice on questions of antisemitism (Maybe @Bobfrombrockley missed it because it spells "Anti-Semitic" instead of "antisemitism"):

"Internationally, one recent global survey of 100 countries found that 32% of people who have heard of the Holocaust think that it is a myth or greatly exaggerated, including 63% in the Middle East and North Africa and 64% of Muslims in the region (11, 12)."

"11. Anti-Defamation League, ADL Poll of Over 100 Countries Finds More Than One-Quarter of Those Surveyed Infected With Anti-Semitic Attitudes. (2014). https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-global-100-poll. Accessed 27 March 2020."

12. Anti-Defamation League, New ADL Poll Finds Dramatic Decline in Anti-Semitic Attitudes in France; Significant Drops in Germany and Belgium. (2015). https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/new-poll-anti-semitic-attitudes-19-countries. Accessed 27 March 2020."

Here is the proper citation as you like it:

Nyhan, Brendan. “Why the Backfire Effect Does Not Explain the Durability of Political Misperceptions.” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, vol. 118, no. 15, 2021, pp. 1–7 Vegan416 (talk) 17:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

You said that these were ADL cites from after 2020, those are two ADL polls from 2014 and 2015. Besides that, so what? I don't think anyone has denied that the ADL is cited by others. Selfstudier (talk) 17:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I meant that the citations appear in articles published after 2020. This is how the search works in JSTOR. And I explained why I brought those sources - WP:USEBYOTHERS. This is particularly relevant against option 3 and 4 that ADL should be deprecated or declared generally unreliable. Vegan416 (talk) 17:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The RFCs are about specific areas, as regards the antisemitism RFC, most editors up to now appear to be arguing for attribution rather than gunrel. Selfstudier (talk) 18:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

OK. I don't think it is necessary, but in order to achieve consensus I won't object to attribution. Vegan416 (talk) 18:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

RS having to revise articles based on ADL data

Since we are doing multiple subsections, I'll add one. Here are two examples of news media having to revise articles after having uncritically used ADL data:

• The recent CNN story based off the ADL data includes this note: Clarification: This story has been updated to include additional information about how the ADL tracks incidents of antisemitism since the start of the Israel-Hamas War. CNN first went with the ADL's number of "361%" from the press release in the Jan 10 version of the article, but then had to revise the story to add three new paragraphs and the "176%" number, to reflect statistics without incidents newly categorized by ADL as antisemitic.
• NBC likewise had to revise its article: Antisemitic incidents in the U.S. surged after Oct. 7 Hamas attack, advocacy group says. Their note reads as follows: CLARIFICATION (Jan. 11, 2024 1:57 p.m. ET): This article has been updated to add details on how ADL has changed the way it compiles data on antisemitic incidents since Oct. 7. NBC had to change the headline as well; the original read: "Antisemitic incidents in the U.S. jumped 360% after Oct. 7 Hamas attack, advocacy group says".

This suggests that ADL has become an unreliable source to the point that news outlets that rely on its reporting have to issue corrections after the fact. --K.e.coffman (talk) 12:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

If a news outlet has used a source uncritically, isn’t that more of a reflection on them than on the source? I see neither of these two updates is described as a correction (rather, they are described as clarifications). Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily, ADL trumpeted the increase but didn't trumpet the change in criteria, misleading at best. Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Here's the original ADL press release which indeed trumpeted the increase and didn't mention the change in criteria, although thrice says the data is "preliminary". It notes that it includes "1,317 rallies, including antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel and/or anti-Zionism." I can't see what was changed when it was amended a week later. I agree that not mentioning a change in methodology is sloppy at best, misleading at worst. Don't think that evidences general unreliability in the way being argued though. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It is in my view bias to the point of unreliability to lump any of those three things together. Much less all three of them. Loki (talk) 13:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Not if you are tracking public anti-Jewish actions and using modern definitions, then all 3 are covered. FortunateSons (talk) 13:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I’ve previously pointed out that the Working Definition of Antisemitism, while popular among governments and advocacy groups, is controversial among scholars and by no means universally accepted. Dronebogus (talk) 11:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a reflection on both, isn't it? If skepticism is required of the sources claims, that implies it's not actually generally reliable for our purposes. Loki (talk) 13:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The clarification wasn’t to increase skepticism, it was to increase visibility of the definitions being used. I agree that not stating the definition change alongside the headline statistic is questionable, but I think that is evidence more of bias than unreliability. Looking into their explainer[153] on the change, they present it not as a methodology change, but rather that the backdrop context of the war renders certain expressions of anti-Zionism as anti-Semitic that might not have counted in mellower times. That is ultimately their opinion, and the charge of anti-semitism is closer to a subjective opinion than an objective fact. Certainly this source needs to be handled with greater than usual care, and it’s not a source which should get waved through into wikivoice - hence “additional considerations”. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 16:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman These are not "corrections" but "clarifications". In other words CNN and NBC do not say that the ADL was wrong about facts, but rather that definitions used were not clear enough. And CNN and NBC do not say that ADL definition (that AZ=AS) is necessarily wrong either. They just clarify what is the definition used by the ADL because some people objected to this definition. A dispute about a definition doesn't make the ADL generally unreliable. Vegan416 (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, we, as a community, object to that definition as fringe. Nowhere on Wikipedia will you find a statement substantiated in Wikivoice asserting that conflation, because it is, politely speaking, unacceptable fringe, and, frankly speaking, drivel. Again, were in not already painfully obvious from a conceptual perspective, you only have to look to see Anti-Zionism and antisemitism existing as separate pages and briefly check the definitions, or do the same on any encyclopedic or RS resource, to observe the difference. Similarly, nowhere will you find the notion that the conflation is a valid minority position within the academic mainstream. You will find RS and scholarly sources denouncing the conflation, and then a small coterie of POV-pushing sources defending the conflation as somehow not intellectually and morally bankrupt. Needless to say, we stick to mainstream. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Elsevier, Cognitive Biases in Fact-Checking ..

• Open access: sciencedirect.com Elsevier URL
• Michael Soprano et. al., Cognitive Biases in Fact-Checking and Their Countermeasures: A Review, formation Processing & Management, Volume 61, Issue 3, 2024, 103672,ISSN 0306-4573,https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ipm.2024.103672.

• Contemplating to use in the articles: Cognitive bias and Fact-checking

Please help confirm if okay as RS

Bookku (talk) 06:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What makes you feel like you need to check? Looks reliable to me. Nobody's cited it yet but that may be because it only came out very recently. --Licks-rocks (talk) 09:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of tabloid(ish) content on TOI

Recently, at the AFD discussion for Sohag Chand and previously at this and this AFD the reliability and independence of short shallow articles on specific TV series like this, this and this by the Times of India have been repeatedly brought up.

Some editors are of the opinion that these sources count as high quality reliable third-party sourcing that provides notability to a subject. Others, (including me) have expressed opinions doubting the reliablity and independences of such articles due to Times of India's history of providing positive coverage for money. As a result, I'd like to open a wider discussion to gain consensus on the reliability of such sources and gain input from other editors on whether or not these sources should be considered sufficient for notability. Sohom (talk) 06:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Courtesty ping @CNMall41, Mushy Yank, Nilpriyo, and The Banner: who participated in the recent AFD discussion. Sohom (talk) 06:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The assessment of you all have of TOI seems accurate from my experience. I don't see how it would change the current RSP rating, though I guess a discussion here can link to definitive examples/accusations of churnalism and paid fluff in the specific area of arts+culture, for which an addendum can be added to RSP's blurb. (I have problems with TOI publishing factually crap pop-sci and pop-hist articles and commentary too, and the occasional tendency of wrong-fact attitudes from such the same reporters to seep into their main news coverage. TOI does not however warrant a general downgrade imo.) SamuelRiv (talk) 06:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Bringing @The Herald: to the discussion since they are heavily involved in the new proposed sourcing wording at Indian cinema taskforce which relates directly to the deletion discussion you pointed out. WP:NEWSORGINDIA was decided by consensus and I do not see a need to change it. Also being discussed at Talk:The Family Star. I think the confusion comes in with considering ALL references coming from a reliable source as reliable which is not the case. An example is this from The Indian Express versus this from the same publication. The Indian Express is considered a reliable source but if you apply NEWSORGINDIA, the first source is NOT reliable as it is bylined as "Entertainment Desk" (indicating WP:CHURNALISM or sponsorship) rather than the second which is bylined from what appears to be a staff writer.--CNMall41 (talk) 20:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I will also add, since the main topic was specific to TOI, this reference is clearly under NEWSORGINDIA as it is bylined "TOI Entertainment Desk" and not a staff writer. --CNMall41 (talk) 21:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks for the courtesy ping. From my experience, TOI is almost never reliable when it comes to BLPs and other news. Since I am more involved in film related articles, I have found from time to time that they are totally unreliable for box office collections (mostly due to WP:FRUIT since they use blacklisted sites and unreliable sites for reporting) and for paid reporting. Per WP:ICTFSOURCES, we can use TOI for film reviews, which again I'd use with a large pinch of salt due to their ediitng policy. They have been accused of paid reporting and for giving paid reviews. Hence, I personally consider TOI as a biased unreliable source. Their reputation for positive coverage for money is well known and hence, I'd say we should really revisit the yellow spectrum of TOI and move it a little bit more to the red spectrum of WP:RS/P. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• I am not sure. What's the topic of this section? Are we discussing 3 sources specifically and is this an annex talk to the current AFD (opening statement/question)? or is this about TOI in general (section title)?

If it's TOI in general, I see no reason to change a thing to the current consensus; the current wording on 2 pages concerning the publication is clear enough and advises caution.

If it's the 3 sources mentioned by Sohom Datta: 2 are TOI, one is not; they certainly are not great but allow verification of uncontroversial facts: the cast, the plot, the series aired on Colours Bangla, it's a remake, the topic (it's about a plus-size woman), the longevity (it had at least 100 episodes), etc. Isn't that important? All in all, these facts contribute to a certain degree of notability, but even this is judged insufficient to prove notability of the series, they should imv be considered usable to allow verification if the page is redirected.

/ Signed "Entertainment Desk"=Churnalism=Unreliable/ is a too simplistic and radical equation in my view. Spectrum is the key word: this is yellow, therefore not green but not red. The constantly-referred-to information section (if/when it applies) says "Exercise caution in using such sources for factual claims or to establish notability." does not mean "don't use them at all" let alone "remove them immediately" from the page nor "do not let anyone reinstate them at all costs". That they're not enough to attest sufficient notability for a standalone page is however indeed possible; hence the option of a redirect in the present case.

PS-If the topic of the section was something else, I clearly missed it.-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)

All People's Church

Disagreement over All People's Church's affiliation with Antioch International Movement of Churches. Save Del Cerro section in dispute considering for inclusion.

All People's Church's lead pastor was the US Church Planting Director for Antioch since 2007. All People's Church has been a part of the Antioch Movement from 2007 to 2022. After dec 2022, All People's Church was "birthed" from Antioch as a new movement. The earliest article found for the Del Cerro incident is 2020. During 2020-2022, All People's Church was part of the Antioch Movement, which included the Save Del Cerro controversy.

Viewpoint 1: All People's Church had affiliation with Antioch during the Del Cerro controversy. This qualifies for a section inclusion.

Viewpoint 2: @Shinealittlelight disagrees, claims there is no affiliation and therefore not a viable section to include. Austin613 (talk) 09:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This is the reliable source notice board. What source are you asking about in support of what claim? Shinealittlelight (talk) 09:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This looks like a question bof whether to include or exclude certain details from an article. That something can be reliable sourced isn't by itself a reason to include content, rather any content that is included must be reliably sourced.
The objection to inclusion appears to be that the sources you supplied doesn't support your interpretation. Again the source can be reliable, but if it doesn't support the content then that's unimportant.
It would be helpful if either of you would simplify the situation, give some background, supply the sources that are being used and what those sources are meant to support. Editors in this board won't necessarily have any background in your discussion or subject. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Article Content

Inference: All People's Church affiliated with Antioch. All People's Church disputed with Del Cerro residents as an Antioch Church.

(Actual source citations in mind not even needed, only making a common sense point to justify the section's inclusion. If this is the wrong board for this, please refer me to the appropriate board. However since we're here, you can go over the reliability of these citations and give your thoughts on the proposal qualifier itself.)

Source 1 "Robert was a pastor in Waco, TX for almost ten years as the college pastor and then US Church Planting Director for Antioch Community Church."

Source 2 "Started in 2008, All Peoples Church" "parent organization, the Antioch Movement of Churches"

Source 3 "December 2017" "the proposed site for All Peoples Church" "sold to the church" "Robert Herber, pastor of the church"

Source 4 "2019" "Antioch Locations" "All People's Church"

Source 5 "Robert Herber, allpeopleschurch.org (Robert served as the college pastor and then US church planting director for Antioch Community Church in Waco, Texas."

Source 6" "About Robert Robert is the Lead Pastor at All Peoples Church San Diego, a mult-ethnic church impacting the city of San Diego. Robert and All Peoples Church are part of the Antioch Movement of Churches." Austin613 (talk) 15:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe I can help clarify. We are editing the article Antioch International Movement of Churches and are in a dispute about whether we should include a section on an incident involving a church in San Diego, which is part of a seperate movement of churches that Antioch started, but is no longer affiliated with. The reliable soruces on the incident are these: [154], [155], [156]. None of these sources mention Antioch. I have said that since the sources do not mention Antioch, we cannot do so; Austin613 thinks that since we can independently source (or anyway we can infer from archived versions of the two church websites) that Antioch was more involved with this church when the sources reported the incident, we can connect Antioch to the incident. This seems like a violation of WP:SYNTH to me: the reliable sources don't mention Antioch in connection with this incident, so we shouldn't either. Shinealittlelight (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I've broken this into two section, the sources connecting the two organisations, and the proposed edit.
Sources for linking the churches:
2/. To old, it was in 2008 but was it still in 2020.
3/. Doesn't mention Antioch in any way.
5/. Past tense again, was he still these things in 2020.
6/. Again he served as a pastor within the Antioch church, put was that still true when he setup the All Peoples Church.
That just leaves number 1 and 4:
1/. In 2022, our parent organization, the Antioch Movement of Churches appears to give a pretty clear connection. Am I missing something about what a church-planting mission is?
4/. Even without clarifying the church-planting mission, this is an archive of Antioch's own website. This does appear to show that All People's Church is an Antioch location. Just because it's an archive doesn't make it less reliable, and it's from about the time of the other details.

The edit:
I had started writing a longer reply detailing concerns about the edit one by one, but there's little point. "contentious battle erupted" isn't encyclopedic language. Next you can't state allegations against a WP:BLP sourcing it to a protest setup against them, no matter who they are. Even if anything is included it will have to be cut right down and better sources found, no statements in wikivoice using a protest group as a reference. Attribution would be required in all cases, this wouldn't help the allegations against the individual which would have to be cut entirely. Overall Facebook and a protest group aren't good sources, maybe a section could be included (using independent secondary sourcing, and higher quality sources for any allegations against living people) but it wouldn't look much like the one proposed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this input. It looks like this San Diego church (All People's Church) was listed on the Antioch website as one of their churches until 2022. But, as of that date, they were no longer listed on Antioch's site, and All People's site says that it because its own distinct church-planting movement--so no longer part of Antioch, but now a distinct organization. They were planning to build a huge project in San Diego. Now the question arises whether the project over which there was controversy was an Antioch project or a project of this distinct organization. Given that they split off from Antioch, there's a serious worry about attributing the project they had planned to Antioch. For all we know, they split off because Antioch didn't want the project! So in my view that we need secondary sources to speak to Antioch's involvement in this project. But we have none. All the reliable secondary sources say nothing about Antioch. For this reason, the only thing we could say it something like "All People's Church was in this controversy in San Diego from 2017-2024, yada yada details from the news stories about the controversy. They were listed as an Antioch Church location until 2022." But that would be pretty misleading--it would make it sound like this involved Antioch in a way that we can't reliably source. Seems SYNTH-y to me. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying church-planting movement. It's not quite synth, but there's not enough sourcing to write about the connection with clarity. The All Peoples Church wanted to construct a bugger church, there was protests against it, at some point it became an separate organisation, the attempt to build the church continued as did the protests. Antioch's place with this isn't clear, neither is why the decision to become a separate church was taken at that specific point. Sourcing directly linking the controversies to Antioch would of course be best, but any sources that discusses the changing relationship between the churches could also help clarify the situation.
As I said previously the edit that was suggested had all kinds of problems, but if better sourcing could be found it doesn't mean that a section couldn't be included. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that. I've looked for better sourcing, though, and haven't found it. But maybe something will turn up. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into the matter. From this I think we can reach consensus on Antioch's affiliation with All People's Church and that the proposed edit is not quite synth and a section about it can be included. That clears up the major concerns shine had. Thank you. Austin613 (talk) 15:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

"Historic UK" as a source for Greater Germanic Reich

The source is used here:[157] (no need for an archive url) and can be found here. See there "about" page.[158]. Doug Weller talk 15:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Uses in other Wikipedia articles.[159] A 'History and Heritage Accommodation Guide' that also has a sideline of publishing historic articles, it also gets mixed up with Historic England (a different organisation). It could be reliable for uncontentious details, but a better source is probably best for anything important. Specifically I can't find anything to show it has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy apart from some minor use by others. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The about page for Historic UK describes their magazine as "Horrible Histories for Adults", which doesn't exactly say reliable source to me. The author of that particular article is apparently a prep-school history teacher (i.e. teaching students up to age 13) with a BA in history. Hardly a top tier source, though it's probably fine for uncontentious detail. Given the enormous amount of scholarship about the foreign policy of Nazi Germany there must surely be a better source: indeed the claim in Greater Germanic Reich is also sourced to a monograph published by Princeton University Press, which certainly looks more promising. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Given what you say I don't think I would use it for anything. Someone teaching young children with a BA in history just isn't qualified enough and suggests the site lacks reliable editorial control. Doug Weller talk 12:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

A New Republic article

I have concerns about the reliability of an article from this source.

It claims As The Forward first noted, there’s one big problem with the numbers: The ADL admits in its own press release that it includes pro-Palestine rallies in its list of antisemitic incidents, even if these featured no overt hostility toward Jewish people. Any anti-Israel or anti-Zionist chants are enough for the ADL’s new definition of antisemitism.

This references two sources; a Forward article, and a ADL press release.

These sources directly conflict with with this statement; The Forward says But the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7 Hamas attack to include rallies that feature “anti-Zionist chants and slogans,” events that appear to account for around 1,317 of the total count, while the ADL says that it's definition includes anti-Zionism but not "Any anti-Israel ... chant", only "expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel".

The New Republic is considered generally reliable at WP:RSP, but I think we need to consider this article to be unreliable, in line with WP:SOURCEDEF which tells us to not only consider the publisher but also the specific article. BilledMammal (talk) 17:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Has this article been cited anywhere on WP? Selfstudier (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It is cited above in the RfC about the ADL Vegan416 (talk) 20:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The ADL admits of the "anti-semitic incidents" it counted, these included "1,307 rallies, including antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel and/or anti-Zionism." ADL's CEO has effectively stated that criticism of the Israeli government is anti-semitism, which would indicate anti-Israel chants are counted as "antisemitic rhetoric". AusLondonder (talk) 17:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The claim is that The ADL admits in its own press release that it includes pro-Palestine rallies in its list of antisemitic incidents, even if these featured no overt hostility toward Jewish people. Any anti-Israel or anti-Zionist chants are enough for the ADL’s new definition of antisemitism.

This is a very specific claim; does the press release say that "Any anti-Israel or anti-Zionist chants" is sufficient for ADL's definition, and reviewing the press release we see it does not; only "expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel".

Other speculation isn't relevant or useful here.

Selfstudier, it's being widely used on this noticeboard, and given the clear issues with it I think it is worth considering here before we take any action based on it. BilledMammal (talk) 17:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Isn't it just the case that this relates to the ongoing ADL RFC's? Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You say "only "expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel"." were included.

That's simply false. The ADL press release is here, please read it. It says included in the count of antisemitic incidents is "1,307 rallies, including antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel and/or anti-Zionism." AusLondonder (talk) 17:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought you would see that in the context of the initial post, where I agreed that the ADL said anti-Zionist chants were included, but I see no aspect of the press release that supports the claim that "any anti-Israel ... chants" are.

The demonstrably false claims about the anti-Israel chants are the issue here. BilledMammal (talk) 18:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• The press release matches what the New Republic article says and what The Forward says, attempted obfuscation by the CEO of the ADL notwithstanding. Billedmammal, the more you've made posts on the I/P topic area over the past few weeks, the more extremely POV biased you seem to be. Silverseren^C 17:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Silver seren: Apologies if I missed it, but I am not seeing anything in the press release that says Any anti-Israel ... chants are enough for the ADL’s new definition of antisemitism. Can you quote it? BilledMammal (talk) 17:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  "Any anti-Israel or anti-Zionist chants are enough for the ADL’s new definition of antisemitism." is NR in it's own voice not attributed to anyone. They go on to say "...under the new definition, it could even count anti-Israel protests by Jewish activists as antisemitic." Why do their statements have to be supported by the Forward or ADL? Selfstudier (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  As The Forward first noted, there’s one big problem with the numbers: The ADL admits in its own press release that it includes pro-Palestine rallies in its list of antisemitic incidents, even if these featured no overt hostility toward Jewish people. Any anti-Israel or anti-Zionist chants are enough for the ADL’s new definition of antisemitism. Are you sure? To me it appears as an attributed claim, not supported by the press release or the forward article. At best, it’s poor phrasing, at worst, an inaccurate interpretation. FortunateSons (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It is a separate sentence. You may believe it to be inaccurate but I would prefer an RS saying so rather than your personal opinion. Selfstudier (talk) 18:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It’s a separate sentence that seems to reference the content of the first sentence. FortunateSons (talk) 18:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Because TNR is, itself, a consensus-determined RS, the standard to determine any particular article is not reliable would be incredibly high and should generally be limited to a retraction/correction by the outlet itself or its discrediting in a second RS. Conducting lexical analysis of specific articles is a way of backdooring original research. Chetsford (talk) 18:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think that is the case. Generally reliable still means editors can argue, even using their own research, that a specific claim is wrong. The only concern with "backdooring OR" is if the OR claim makes it into article space. We can and should be open to reasonable, logical discussions of issues with claims in sources green or otherwise. To be honest, this "green=always good" "yellow=avoid" and "red=always wrong" is really detrimental to Wikipedia sourcing. Springee (talk) 02:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• I strongly disagree. Our SYNTH policy states not to "combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source". In this case, the OP has engaged in original lexical analysis of two sources to conclude a third source (TNR) is wrong. But neither of those sources mention or reference TNR. And while OR applies to "information in an article" it must logically and equally apply to information to be excluded from an article. It's impossible to imagine any internet rando who registers a WP account is able to recreate or verify TNR's journalistic inquiry. Chetsford (talk) 09:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Just a aside but editors are expected to use their own good judgement in evaluating sources. That can include analysing sources in ways that would not be allowed in content. If you know something is wrong how you got there is less important.
  Just commenting on the general issue, and not on whether the analysis of this source is correct. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

"editors are expected to use their own good judgement in evaluating sources" Taken to mean that editors are expected to apply their own supposed skills at content analysis in evaluating sources, I certainly acknowledge that's the perspective under which many of our editors are laboring. It's not one I have ever found in our policy. Chetsford (talk) 14:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• I read th ADL release and it gave incidents like a girl being shouted at for wearing a IDF sweatshirt with you're a whore and free Palestine. Pretty nasty, but exactly what is antisemitic about it? It definitely sounds to me like they include stuff against Israel as antisemitic. NadVolum (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Especially given that most prominent supporters of the Israeli government and military in Europe and the US are not Jewish, including those calling for the nuclear bombing of Gaza. AusLondonder (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  going on to call the teen a “White piece of s–t you can also add racism to the mix (excluding the whole “are Jews white” discussion for being off-topic). I would place this under “credibly antisemitic”, the same way an attack on someone for wearing a Palestine pin and a Keffiyeh while making a derogatory reference to to their skin color is probably a racist attack, even if they aren’t using an anti-Palestinian slur. FortunateSons (talk) 18:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  If we want to discuss ADL, there are ongoing RFC's for that, this is about NR. Selfstudier (talk) 18:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Going on to say white piece of shit indicates to me that it was actually not antisemitic, they probably didn't care if she was a Jew or not. If the organisation doing what they say they do they would not have put this up as an example - I'm sure they've plenty of antisemitic stuff they could have used. Instead they used something that was obviously anti Israeli actions against Palestinians with no obvious indication of antisemitism. NadVolum (talk) 23:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It is (sometimes) used as a way to implicitly deny the nativity of Ashkenazi Jews to Israel, equating them to settler colonies of people with no relationship to the country. Nobody except the perpetrator can know what exactly was meant, and I wouldn’t be opposed to excluding it based on caution if I was the one making the statistic, but I would say that ethnicity (Jewishness) was likely at least a correlated if not a causal factor (in addition to the obvious), and including an attack like that would be reasonable in my opinion when compiling a list of credible reports of antisemitism.

  They probably included it simply because it received media attention, as most incidents do not receive much attention. FortunateSons (talk) 23:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  You can't deduce or assume that from the pejorative alone. Given that a sizeable demographic of Israel supporters in the US is white Americans, there is a strong face-value scenario. It is not credible to simply assume cryptic hate. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well, calling someone "white POS" is definitely racist whichever way you look at it, even if not necessarily antisemitic per se. So it is definitely a hate crime or hate incident, and not legitimate political protest. Vegan416 (talk) 06:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  That's not the issue. The question was whether it was "credibly antisemitic", which seems like a hard pass. It's indicative of how broad and undiscerning the net being cast here is. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well, the lines between general racism (like anti-whiteness) and specific racism (like antisemitism) can sometime be blurred. And I think that it is credible to describe this as an antisemitic incident, even if we cannot definitely prove it 100%. Vegan416 (talk) 07:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  The ADL released an update to their methodology description in 2024, and also sent responses on methodology to a number of reporting outlets. Basically it's that database accumulation is an inexact science, and it requires occasional tweaks, and what matters to researchers is not necessarily the semantic accuracy in a given year but the change given faithful methodology over several years. While I think press releases saying that antisemitic incidents increased 300-something percent in entering 2024 are irresponsible data reporting (iirc fivethirtyeight remarked on that, which is where I first heard the ADL's response statement, but I can't find the article), the basic fact is that their methodology for keeping this database is generally pretty transparent, and they've kept it for longer than anyone else, and it tracks relatively well against other metrics (such as survey data and criminal reports taken individually, which is how one makes adjustments -- the post-Oct-7 adjustment is of course understandably controversial, but there were also controversies in 2021 and March 2023 -- a related discussion/commentary is at INSS 2021, and a more recent one at Cohen 2023).

  My point is that a criticism in what particular incidents are counted vs not is missing the point -- what matters is year-on-year change, whether methodology changes are suitably justified, whether they are properly calibrated and consistent with other metrics, and whether ADL press releases were responsible representations of data. (A very good case can be made that the ADL erred on multiple points, but that case has not been made in this discussion.) The New Republic article, and a lot of the commentary by editors here, seems to miss the point. SamuelRiv (talk) 22:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

To read the New Republic article as articulated in the OP as somehow misrepresenting the facts on the ground requires such a read so hair-splitting that it's practically implausible. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

To be honest I think this illustrates the problem with many of these hate watch type groups. It's not going to be easy to draw the line where antisemitism starts and if a specific statement reflects true antisemitism vs an expression of anger, dislike etc that was meant to be more hurtful vs reflecting any true antisemitic intent. It gets even worse when such watch groups may have a political vested interest in inflating numbers of incidents, conflating disagreements with antisemitism (or anti-green or "hate" or anti-LGBTQ etc). This is why I think we really should be treating all of these groups as "yellow" sources at best and always consider if their claims are specific enough or if they may be self serving data points (lowering the bar on "hate" so we can increase the number of incidences etc). This doesn't mean I think the New Republic is the sort of source that would avoid spin if the spin helped the NR push a point. Springee (talk) 03:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Are we just posting articles we don't like to this noticeboard now? What are we doing? This isn't even about this being used on any actual content page. Parabolist (talk) 05:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It's called pov-pushing. AusLondonder (talk) 06:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

This article had been used in the RfC discussion about the ADL above. So discussing its reliability is quite relevant here. Vegan416 (talk) 06:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Then it should be discussed at the relevant place in the ADL discussion, not separately, since even OP does not doubt that the source is grel. Selfstudier (talk) 10:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Belowempty.com

[belowempty.com] This is a rather interesting source, because of the fact that, even though it appears to be an unreliable fan website on the surface, it actually does reproduce content from actual reliable sources, as can be found here. I have been removing citations to this website that are not based upon published sources (i.e., original research and fan speculation, user-generated FAQ's, etc), and I wanted to bring this site here to see if anyone had any objections to my removals of citations to this website's self-published content. I am trying to be bold, but I also don't want to act unilaterally and potentially against consensus. JeffSpaceman (talk) 23:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

An unreliable source that actually does reproduce content from actual reliable sources at times remains an unreliable source. Cite the reliable sources instead of the unreliable source. Cullen328 (talk) 07:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328: Thank you for the clarification, I completely forgot about that. At some point, I might try and find the original reliable source, but a lot of the sources they're reproducing are in print (Rolling Stone, Metal Hammer, etc), and hard to find on the internet. I think I might remove the citations to the fansite, explicitly attribute their content in the article, and add citation needed tags. What say you, though? I will avoid doing any of this until I get a response from you, given that you're an administrator, and set me straight about this site's reproduction of reliable, verifiable content. JeffSpaceman (talk) 10:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

If they are hosting documents (scans of printed material for instance), you can cite the document and use their URL as a courtesy link. One of the links I saw for the site is this[160], a scan of the Boston Global August 2, 1992. Citing the Boston Globe and using the URL so editors have access to a scan would be fine.
Not all of the hosted material is as reliable, as the reliability is with the original publisher. Also I would be more cautious where they are republishing text (not a scan or document but text on their website they claim is from a third source), in those cases it might be best to validate and use the original. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Are these sources reliable?

• Chhatrapati Shivaji, Architect of Freedom.
• Mata Jijabai: Mata Jijabai: The Revered Mother of Chhatrapati Shivaji by S.K.
• Chhatrapati Shivaji.

Sudsahab (talk) 14:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Context is important what content do you want to support? Also the first is only limited access could you quote what you want to use?
Just searching using google books doesn't result in good references, as you only see a small part of the page. The result you see could be part of a quote the author is later showing to be incorrect. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I do not want to cite these, I just want to know if these sources are genuine and written by a historian or not, as Siege of Panhala (1660) is cited with these sources, at the first view of these sources they doesn't look WP:RS so please tell me if I should remove these sources from the article or not? Sudsahab (talk) 15:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Possibly?¿ Indian sources can be difficult to judge. I've dropped at note here WT:INB#Discussion at RSN that requires input asking for some help. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I'll wait for its conclusion. Sudsahab (talk) 04:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

There appears a tendency in the area of editors searching Google books, getting fragments without context and using them to back up content in articles. It's why I was cautious with my first response, as the link given appear to be much of the same. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree with you, while arguing with the author of the article I found out that he's still citing through keyword searching Talk:Siege of Panhala (1660). Sudsahab (talk) 02:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Balls and Strikes

The source. I found a source I was interested in using, but it has never been discussed before, and I figured it should be brought up here. Would this site be considered reliable for its coverage of American politics and the American judicial system? Several of its contributors, including the EiC, have previous journalism experience according to their contributors page. However, after reading through a few articles, they do seem to have a strong left-wing bias. Any thoughts? QuicoleJR (talk) 14:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Very do have a strong bias, per their about us page[161], so attribution would likely be a good idea. They're quite new so may lack a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (WP:RS) and I can't finf any other reliable sources using them as a source (WP:USEBYOTHERS).
The staff does have journalistic experience though, so overall use with caution. I could see an argument that their comments are undue in some cases (given their limited recognition). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested: Correct me if I'm wrong here:

Balls and Strikes is a biased source and inline attribution should be used. Their opinions may be undue in some cases. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I will also mention that this page is quite concerning. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

And this one is too. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that's a good summary. I don't see the 'How to Pitch' page as being concerning, it's just the modern day 'tip line' that newspapets had. Anything submitted is apparently looked over by their editorial staff. As for the last link it's an April fools day post, other sources have posted more elaborate pranks (for instance[162]). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, and I'm glad we are on the same page here. As for the pitch page, I was concerned about the part where they said they are specifically looking for criticism in submissions, although that isn't too big of a concern. The April Fools' page was just meant as an example of how biased the site is. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I will also mention that the site is sponsored by Demand Justice, which is an advocacy organization. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes I noticed that to, and they definitely wear their bias on their sleeve, but bias doesn't automatically mean unreliable (per WP:RSBIAS). Note in BLPs they might not life up to Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources from WP:BLP. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thanks for clearing things up. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: I have informed WikiProject U.S. Supreme Court cases of this discussion. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Bias ≠ unreliable, as AD said. Balls & Strikes generally doesn't do fact reporting; they do analysis and opinion. They have editors and an editorial policy and their opinions should be used with attribution, just like any other op-ed. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, UNDUE speaks to minority points of view, not to the fact that the writer of a POV works for a smaller publication. We don't exclude a source as UNDUE just because it isn't as famous as another publication. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, they should probably be used with caution in BLPs, if used at all. I could see considering its opinion to be as acceptable as other site's opinions, but I doubt it meets the stricter standards of BLP, per ActivelyDisinterested. For example, I don't think this would be a good source to use for the politician it is about. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Why? The tone is snarky, but if there were a section in the article about his handling of judicial nominees, I don't see why that article couldn't be cited as criticism of his tactics/style. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

A simple question: what if the subject was a liberal, and the author/source was a snarky conservative upstart? Somehow I can't imagine anything less than howling indignation and shouts of "propaganda rag!" from the Wikipedian peanut gallery. --Animalparty! (talk) 04:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

We would treat it in the same way - and we do - unless you have an example of a "snarky conservative" source that has been deprecated simply for being snarky and conservative? Black Kite (talk) 04:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

"Deprecated" has a distinct, stronger meaning on this board, but check out this very recent discussion of a conservative leaning source. And when it comes to opinions, well, there is no shortage of them, and Wikipedians need to be wary of putting their thumb on the scale, of giving undue/disproportionate weight to the opinions of obscure partisans that would otherwise see little light of day. A commentary in Balls and Strikes by a non-notable professional writer carries much less prominence and weight than a commentary in a major news magazine or widely reprinted columnist. --Animalparty! (talk) 14:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Age Matters

Can anyone tell what I should do if the sources conflict in the results? Should I prefer New sources over older?

Like in Bahmani-Vijayanagara War (1375-1378) the older sources cited Cambridge History Of India Vol. 2. gives different context that it was a rather peace treaty but the newer other sources cited in the articles talks about Vijaynagar victory. Please tell me what I should do here? Should I remove it as per WP:AGE MATTERS?Sudsahab (talk) 11:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The actual question should be, Is it reliable to cite the conflicts between the Bahmanis and Vijayanagara between Mujahid Shah and Bukka Raya, ended in peace by using the excerpt Mujahid besieged Adoni for nine months, and was on the point of receiving its surrender when the rainy season began, replenished the water supply of the garrison, and caused much distress in the besiegers’ camp. Saif-ud-din Ghuri persuaded him to raise the siege, peace was made with Bukka, and Mujahid set out for his capital., from the source Cambridge History Of India Vol. 2 page number 383-384, or does this fall under WP: AGEMATTERS. The same context is present in the The Cambridge Shorter History Of India : J.allan, page 174. Imperial^[AFCND] 12:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I know what I'm asking, the other sources clearly goes with Vijaynagar victory while the outdated/Aged sources goes with peace treaty and I asked that what should be done in this case. Can you give a room to RSN clerks before starting a new discussion here and pointing out '''what should be done'''? Sudsahab (talk) 14:57, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

And what I have to say to @Sudsahab is, just keep your keyboard shut for sometime. The above way you asked is not the right way to ask the reliability of sources here. I've been noticing this rubbish behaviour against me by you. Just let me allow to speak, and stop bludgeoning the process. Imperial^[AFCND] 15:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with Sudsahab's question, nor do they appear to be bludgeoning the discussion. Schazjmd (talk) 15:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@User:Schazjmd, Let's focus on discussing the topic rather than the individual discussions. Since you haven't witnessed their behavior towards me, it may be difficult to fully understand the situation. For example, observe their behavior in other contexts Talk:Battle of Talas. Whenever I take action or try to help, their behavior tends to bother me. What did I do wrong here? Was providing a quote with the corresponding page number inappropriate? They say "before starting a new discussion," but did I actually initiate a new discussion? Consider these points after reviewing the entire context. Imperial^[AFCND] 15:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado, it appears you're dragging a personal conflict from elsewhere into this discussion. I disagreed with your accusations that the original post was "not the right way to ask" and that the OP is "bludgeoning the process". I suggest that you just engage with Levivich's reasonable and experienced analysis of the question about sources rather than try to silence Sudsahab. Schazjmd (talk) 16:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Appreciate your suggestion. Take a look again, who tried to silence whom. Imperial^[AFCND] 16:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

what I have to say to @Sudsahab is, just keep your keyboard shut for sometime Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

100-year-old history books are not RS for history, they're obsolete. Use modern sources: 21st-century history books whenever possible; if not, then the most recent available. Levivich (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich, the most recent book the above user talks about was published just after 30 years the Cambridge source published. I don't think thirty-year old gap would make such a difference, and I can't see any records cited to the book. And no, there is no sources that covers the event in-depth in the 21st century sources. Does that makes the article fall WP:GNG? The concept of a 100-year rule doesn't appear feasible. If it were, anyone could argue for the removal of sources, especially those published after just 30 or 40 years. Unfortunately, if there isn't much coverage by reliable sources within that timeframe, users could use this as an excuse to remove sources and claim that they no longer meet notability standards. This could potentially result in much of history being overlooked, which is concerning. What are your thoughts on this? Imperial^[AFCND] 15:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not the 30-year gap between the books that make a difference, it's the age of the books. The Cambridge History of India was published between 1922 and 1937. The Cambridge Shorter History of India was published in 1934. That is so long ago that we cannot trust that what those books says are true. They don't tell us what modern scholarship has to say about anything. And imagine: is there anything in those history books from 100 years ago that scholars have not written about in the last 100 years? That's unthinkable. If it's true, then whatever it was that is no longer written about, is probably not notable.

But anyway, there is, at least, The New Cambridge History of India, written between 1987 and 2004. I don't see any reason why anyone would use the 100-year-old version of the book, instead of using the 30-year-old version of the book. But even this is rather old, for history: 30 years is more than one generation of historians. There are more recent history books that talk about the history of India, the history of the Bahmani Sultanate, and the history of the Vijayanagar empire. I would look at those books to see what they said about the particular Bahmani-Vijayanagar war of 1362-1367--which may, indeed, not be notable enough for a stand-alone article; for example, if most modern historians treat that particular conflict as one small part of a broader conflict between the two groups that spanned over 100 years, then perhaps that's how Wikipedia should present it as well. Levivich (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a more prudent approach. Additionally, it's important to consider that older sources might be influenced by WP:RAJ records, which are often regarded as unreliable. I'll make an effort to find newer sources. By the way, could you provide guidance on the acceptable timelimit for using older sources? This would be helpful as I frequently encounter a mix of old and new records. Imperial^[AFCND] 16:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich, I came across an unexpected outcome in the book The New Cambridge History of India Vijayanagara. On page 115, it states, However, the early Bahmani sultans Muhammed I and Mujahid (c. 1358-78) waged such successful wars for this territory that during the fifteenth century the Tungabhadra became a boundary between the two kingdoms, with the interfluvial tract of Raichur constituting a buffer that changed hands frequently." Interestingly, this is the only information provided in the book about the campaign. What would you suggest for the result section in the infobox? Imperial^[AFCND] 16:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

es, that these sources were published by Cambridge University during the British Raj is another reason why I do not think they are reliable -- I would not trust a colonizer to accurately tell me the history of the indigenous people it is colonizing.

I don't think there is any numerical rule or date limit for sources. It really depends on the subject matter, and I don't think there is any kind of global consensus for exactly how old is "too old." For example, it's possible somebody discovered some species of plant in 1850 and wrote an article about it, and then nobody ever bothered to write about that particular species of plant again, in which case the 1850 article is probably fine for Wikipedia to use. But for history, especially wars, it's totally different. Every generation of historians expands or revises what the previous generation of historians wrote. It's always changing, always evolving. So I think it's best for Wikipedia to summarize "the current generation of historians," which I generally think of as the last 20-25 years, or, conveniently for us, the 21st century. For some obscure topics, you may have to go back two generations -- 25-50 years -- but for me personally, that's as far back as one should go.

To answer your question about "result," well taking that quote alone, since it says "successful wars," I would think that the result of the wars was a victory for the Bahmani sultans. But more likely, it makes me thing that this article maybe should be merged to another article, or the scope expanded, to cover the wars (plural) in one article, instead of having a separate article entirely about the 1375-1378 war. But I would look to see what other sources say first, to see if the sources are in agreement or disagreement about the outcome, and whether the sources treat the 1375-1378 war separately, or as part of a longer conflict. Sometimes, older sources call a "war" what newer sources call a "campaign" or even "battle." Levivich (talk) 17:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That's right. There are indeed disagreements in this campaign. The earlier was treated as the First Bahmani-Vijayanagar War, fought between Muhammad Shah I and Bukka Raya. It is explicitly considered as an individual single war between the both parties. The later campaign launched by Mujahid Shah, was not considered as a "war" such as "Bahmani-Vijayanagar War" by any of the historians, but a campaign launched by Mujahid against the Vijayanagara. That's why I initiated a move discussion on the talk page of Bahmani-Vijayanagara War (1375-1378). I've seen the outcome of the campaign as the peace treaty, successful campaign of Bahmanis, and as unsuccessful campaign of the Bahmanis. The context of the article is already present at Bahmani–Vijayanagar War (1398)#Background. I neither oppose merging, nor keeping this, but a move is required, and the aftermath section is disputed. Multiple sources provide multiple outcome, as this perhaps be because of the nature of the campaign. Imperial^[AFCND] 17:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Another option is to intentionally NOT state the “result”… but instead do what you just did here, describe how different historians have different views on the “result”… and explain to the reader who says what. Blueboar (talk) 17:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that works. I've seen articles with result section being directed to aftermath section by adding "See Aftermath". In this case, we could cover all the opinions on different records, and describe it in the aftermath section. Thanks @Blueboar! Imperial^[AFCND] 18:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to opine on the particular sources here, but I disagree that 100-year-old history books are not RS for history, they're obsolete is always true. For example, Black Reconstruction in America is still considered to be a seminal, reliable text on the history of Black Reconstruction in America, and its conclusions have been reaffirmed by contemporary historians, including Eric Foner. Age alone is not an indicator of the reliability of a historical text. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Voorts, I've added both the contexts in the article, Cambridge History of India, and the New Cambridge History of India. Some months ago, I removed some 300-400 year old sources from the the article Battle of Cochin. Not sure if I made a mistake, but pretty sure 300-400 year old sources, that too of a participant party of a war is unreliable. Imperial^[AFCND] 06:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Dear, @ImperialAficionado just keep your keyboard shut for sometime was colossally harsh towards me and again you may not tell me what should be done The above way you asked is not the right way to ask the reliability of sources here as I know myself better what to do. And no this is not WP:BLUDGEONING please refrain from accusing me of such behaviour when it was you who was accused of WP:BLUDGEONING a few months ago at RSN. Considering that you did the same by starting a discussion at the wrong place [163]. I can show various such instances where you even tried to do fishing [164] Nonetheless I think it's not the right place to tell any about this I have to move forward by swallowing these personal attacks.

• 1) Now coming to the discussion.

We know that the historiagraphy of Vijaynagar Empire and Bahmani Sultanate has evolved since the 1930s so it should be the only reason that we should not stick to the older sources as they have become obsolete and aren't relevant anymore when we have an ample amount of up-to-date sources.

• 2) The influence of the British Raj shouldn't be just altogether ignored here.

• 3) To say that article will not pass WP:GNG if we won't use these sources is just a hoax argument. We can't go with these aged sources even if they have in-depth analysis about the subject topic as I have said these sources aren't yet developed and using these could be hazardous (lacks primary sources? Lacks peer review? Not revised?).

• 4) From THE HISTORY OF VIJAYANAGAR EMPIRE VOL.1. We can affirm the article's GNG The Fourth Bahamani War: June 1375—March 1378.Sudsahab (talk) 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• while that is a bit sharp brevity is a virtue (t · c) buidhe 21:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Requesting opinions on an RfC relating to proposal of addition of new section to LiveJasmin page

Please comment on whether the proposed section here Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest_proposed_"Controversy"_section_improved_after_a_number_of_suggestions_from_the_community should be included in the page. Thank you! Alexfotios (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Chen Chen and Twitter-based literary journals

I am concerned that WP:ABOUTSELF does not apply to this passage on the page Chen Chen (poet):

He also edits "the lickety split", a Twitter-based journal that "only publishes poems that fit in a single tweet", alongside his fictional assistant editor Gudetama the Egg.

My reasoning is as follows: since the lickety split is ostensibly a third-party -- even if Chen is the sole (real) editor -- it isn't notable enough to include on Wikipedia as it has no third-party sources, only the Twitter page itself.

Pinging Skyerise (talk · contribs) as she disagrees with me. She should make the opposing case if she so chooses. wound theology◈ 13:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Notability doesn't apply to to article content. Unless someone is suggesting a standalone page on the lickety split, the relevant question here isn't whether it's notable, but whether the Twitter page is a reliable source for its own existence – I would say obviously it is. – Joe (talk) 13:19, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

About self applies to organisations as well as people. So either Chen Chen is talking about themself, or Chen Chen is making a statement from lickety split as the owner of lickety split. Either way it's still an about self statement.
Whether the existence of lickety split is pertinent to the article isn't a reliability matter. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

In general, I wouldn't consider a twitter account to be a third-party to the operator of that account for the purposes of ABOUTSELF, no, if that's what you're asking. Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with you about UNDUE but that's not a question for this board. (t · c) buidhe 21:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

CNA and other Mediacorp outlets

How reliable are those Singapore news sources? I haven't watched CNA for a long time. Ahri.boy (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think these a reason to believe they are unreliable, but maybe as with The Straits Times finding a different source is suggestable when it comes to the government of Singapore (due to media restrictions in the country[165]). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)