Third time around for this article. Just a couple of things to consider before reviewing.
I've gone through the prose (again). If you find more mistakes, you'll have to excuse me while I bash my head against a wall.
A concern last FAC seemed to be that the article relied too much on his autobiography for sourcing. Well, I've now pared down those references from his book, so the only references used from his autobiography are describing his feeling or using quotes (which I think is the correct way to use that kind of source). Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Um, I'm just wondering how I'm supposed to go about doing that?
This forum is to review if an article is of FA standard or not, if the validitity of components of an article are unverifiable then i would oppose promotion Fasach Nua (talk) 21:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You need to find out the copyright information for the statue. It was probably created recently enough to be under copyright still; therefore a photo of it is a derivative work of a copyrighted work, and therefore copyrighted as well. --Laser brain(talk)22:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(to Fasach Nua) Please don't oppose until I have a chance to address what you say. For now, I've removed the image until I place fair-use rationale, and/or find another suitable image. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - I've reviewed this at both previous FACs and read through most of it a few weeks ago. Therefore, I'm starting my review from where I left off, and the first comment comes from the year he came back to the NBA from retirement.
Another sentence starting with "But". Not the first time I've seen that in this article.
Off the court: "a company that has a net worth of 700 million." I don't understand why the number isn't just given as a dollar figure.
Our NBA Countdown article says that the show also airs on ABC.
HIV activism: I was confused by this: "publicized a risk of infection for everyone." I get what it's trying to say, but the wording can definitely be improved.
Career achievements: "Several of his achievements in individual games also been named one of the top moments in the NBA." one>among.
Rivalry with Larry Bird: "Ever since the Johnson's Michigan State squad...". Grammar error.
Don't think "Hall-of-Famers" needs the hyphens.
Current references 11 and 95 need en dashes for the page ranges.
That's all I found in that part of the article, but please note that I didn't read through all of it. That will come at a later time. Giants2008 (17-14) 14:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through your points, but a few things:
I think the NBA countdown article says it's on ABC because ESPN is a subsidary on ABC. I'm pretty sure it's shown on ESPN.
"publicizing the risk of infection for everyone". I'm stuck on that, I can't think of a way to reword it.
Don't think there's anything wrong with using "but" at the beginning of sentences, but never mind... traditional grammar teachers will object. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tech. Review
Dabs and external links (based on the checker tools in the toolbox) are up to speed, as is the ref formatting (based on the WP:REFTOOLS script.)--Best, ₮RUCӨ22:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support Oppose from Dabomb87 (talk·contribs) Much improved. Too important an article to bypass. It's not bad but there is some tightening and clarifying for readers not familiar with basketball. Many of my concerns are picky, but I want this article to the best that WP has to offer on basketball, especially considering the subject. Find someone not familiar with the subject and the article to copy-edit.
"In Johnson's fifth year, he had another strong season of 17.6 points, 13.1 assists and 7.3 rebounds per game." Two things, both of which could attributed to personal preference:
"had" is such a weak verb, could you find something better?
"strong season" is subjective, how does one define that. Keep in mind that a strong season for Brian Scalabrine could be a down season for Kobe Bryant.
"where Johnson's Lakers"-->in which Johnson's Lakers
I think it would be better to rename the header from "Battles with the Celtics (1983–87)" to "Battles against the Celtics (1983–87)", "with" could be interpreted to mean that he fought these battles on the same side as the Celtics
"Johnson later termed the series as "the one championship we should have had but didn't get"."-->Johnson later described the series as "the one championship we should have had but didn't get".
"In the 1984–85 NBA season, Johnson returned to form and averaged 18.3 points, 12.6 assists and 6.2 rebounds per game in the regular season." Just a paragraph earlier, you said that Johnson had a "strong season", but now you are saying he "returned to form", which implies a drop-off.
"After advancing to the Western Conference Finals, however, the Lakers were unable to defeat Houston, who advanced to the Finals in five games." "however" used here is confusing, because Johnson's double-double in the regular season doesn't necessarily translate to playoff success.
"For his feats, Johnson was awarded his third Finals MVP title" Is "For his feats" necessary? The comma after this phrase isn't necessary.
"although a team had not successfully repeated their title since 1969." Confusing, maybe "although a team had not won consecutive titles since 1969."
"36 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists, and he led his team to a 108–105 win" Ellipsis. -Done
"where they again faced the Pistons"-->in which they again faced the Pistons
"In his retirement, Johnson engaged himself in writing a book on safer sex, running several businesses, working for NBC as a commentator, and touring Asia and Australia with a basketball team comprising former college and NBA players."-->During his retirement, Johnson wrote a book on safer sex, ran (operated?) several businesses, worked for NBC as a commentator, and toured Asia and Australia with a basketball team that comprised former college and NBA players.
You use "year" and "season" interchangeably, and not always correctly. For example, "In Johnson's fifth year, he had another strong season of 17.6 points, 13.1 assists and 7.3 rebounds per game." A season usually encompasses parts of two years.
"Johnson first fathered a son in 1981, when Andre Johnson was born to Melissa Mitchell.[75] In 1991, Johnson married Earlitha "Cookie" Kelly, with whom he had one son, Earvin III" So what happened to Johnson's relationship with Mitchell?
"Johnson and Bird were first linked as rivals " "linked" is vague. Is it some destiny thing or a media-driven rivalry?
Per WP:LAYOUT, I think the section "Books" should be "Works". -Done
Hi, Dabomb87. I understand that you are busy, and that it is the nominator's responsibility to make sure the article is written brilliantly, but I think it would be extremely helpful if you can help copyedit the article. You are an amazing copyeditor and any help from you will be greatly appreciated.—Chris!ct23:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I did some cleanup work to help this one along. One issue I'll leave to the nominator was this glaring redundancy: "However, despite Abdul-Jabber's dominance, he had failed to win a championship with the Lakers, and Johnson was expected to help the Lakers win a championship.Giants2008 (17-14) 02:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if I can commit to the promised copy-editing. I said I would try to do some, but there are a lot of things I need to attend to this week. I will try my best, but don't expect too much. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing I saw during another sweep of the article: "Although it was rumored that Johnson was gay or bisexual, he denied both charges." I'm a little uncomfortable with this because the text makes it sound like homosexuality is some kind of crime.Giants2008 (17-14) 01:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(indent) Lean support - Since there has been no almost no activity here for about two weeks, I'm going to follow my instincts and take a stand. The article looks better than it did the other two times it was here, and the main complaints from past FACs seem to have been addressed. After the sweep I mentioned above, I'm quite satisfied with the quality of the page overall. I'm going to leave several more comments here before striking the lean above (I swear this is it from me):
The many Basketball-Reference links shouldn't be in italics, which are forced by the work parameter in the cite templates. Perhaps consider putting them both in the publisher parameter.
Based on my experience writing FLs, I've been told to have Basketball-Reference in the work parameter and Sports Reference LLC in the publisher parameter. Now you say you want Basketball-Reference in the publisher parameter, so which one is correct?—Chris!ct03:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ref publishers should be in italics only if they are printed publications. The work parameter of the template forces italics, so I'm suggesting moving what's in the work parameter (Basketball-Reference) as a work-around. If you want both that and Sports Reference LLC in that parameter, that would be just fine. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Olympic medal record and jersey photo are both pushing edit links to the left, a condition known as edit bunching. Possible remedies include moving the medal record up a paragraph and moving the photo, perhaps down to the Career achievements section.
Really picky, but while I'm here, should the various abbreviations in the Works section be spelled out? I'm talking about the states etc., though I think F. Watts is fine.Giants2008 (17-14) 03:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- am highly familiar with this article because I collaborated with other editors for its GA nom and first FAC run. Have not touched it much since then but I think others have slowly beaten it into shape. Chensiyuan (talk) 16:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend another copy-editing pass to ensure everything has been ironed out. I'm honestly not fond of this part: "I practiced all day," he later said. "I dribbled to the store with my right hand and back with my left. Then I slept with my basketball." — it kind of reminds me of something we'd see in a sports column. Perhaps you could paraphrase? There's also some...subjective redundancies, such as "In what is still the most-watched college basketball game" and "Previously, HIV had been associated with drug addicts and homosexuals,". Nice, straight-ahead sports article. — Deckiller03:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—article's prose is quite good; it's definitely nothing to oppose over. The article does a nice job in noting Johnson's on- and off-court significance. — Deckiller20:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It's close, but some more copy-editing is still required. In the very first paragraph, for instance, we have this: Johnson "returned to win the MVP of the 1992 All-Star Game." One doesn't "win" the Most Valuable Player; one "is" (or some other form of the verb to be) MVP, or one wins the MVP Award. I see other small issues like this scattered around the article—it needs another ce pass to meet prose requirements. I'm happy to assist, if you like.
One substantive request: proper sourcing for the height and weight information in the infobox. He is currently listed at 6-foot-9, 255 pounds. What's the source for that? Basketball-reference.com, which is used for his NBA stats, lists him at 6-foot-8, 215 pounds. I can believe he's put on 40 pounds since his retirement (though, actually, why should we be interested at all in his retirement weight?--I would either cut that or list his playing weight, identified as such); has he actually grown an inch?!—DCGeist (talk) 21:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Given that you have two authoritative sources giving different figures, it's fine to choose one as this is an infobox (in running text, we'd want to spell out the disagreement). But you should probably put notes next to both height and weight in which you directly cite the source and mention the competing source and figure. —DCGeist (talk) 19:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I looked around, and it seems that many more sources list Johnson as 6-ft-9 than 6-ft-8; I see that 6-ft-9 is also the height that you've gone with in the running text of the article (in the Career achievements section). Finally, I found a published source that gives exactly the same height and weight figures as NBA.com. Given that, I've restored the figures you had before. I've also included footnotes giving the sources for 6-ft-9/255 lbs., while noting Basketball-Reference.com's variant figures. I've been unable to figure out how to make the footnotes appear properly within this bio infobox template (I tried running them both right next to the figures and one space removed, and the template was not happy); if some one does know the proper coding, that would be great, but it's not crucial that these notes be visible. (Thanks to Chrishomingtang for adjusting the template to allow for the proper appearance of the footnotes.) I hope you approve of the adjustment. Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 19:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The prose is generally good, and the article is well-referenced. Images are useful and comply with all guidelines. I hope you don't mind, but I've performed some minor copyedits myself; in this case it was quicker than listing the necessary tweaks here. Overall though, nice work; I enjoyed reading the article. Good luck with the remainder of this nomination. SteveT • C21:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Support I feel that this article has improved so much since last year that it should be featured. It already has "good article" status, but I think it's a great article. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 01:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I think all of the MoS, sourcing, citing, etc. issues raised in the nom before restart have been addressed. I believe the article shape is appropriate and the article will be stable unless and until she is elected president (unlikely to happen as it stands now), at which point we would deal with it accordingly. In general I believe the article merits FA status. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The image issues originally posed were addressed. I'm not sure about Image:Hillary Clinton first lady portraitHRC.jpg, as a work merely commissioned by the federal government might not necessarily be properly considered a "work of an employee of the Executive Office of the President of the United States", as it's tagged (the source website disclaimer asserts the artist retains copyright). I, however, don't have sufficient information (i.e. I don't know of the statute defining "employee of the EO") to make a firm assertion one way or another. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk18:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
EXCELLENT POINT! This is NOT a work of an employee of the Executive Office. This picture needs to be replaced in the article and the copyrighted image removed from Wikipedia. — BQZip01 —talk18:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just about every First Lady article I've seen includes their official White House portrait. Why is this one considered different? Or do they all have to go? Wasted Time R (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I all depends how those are used, how they were acquired, etc. Those who were before the advent of film have little other way to illustrate their image and most of those copyrights ended a long time ago. Others may have been works of a government employee and, therefore, are public domain. Others still may simply have not elected to maintain their copyright on the images. I don't know specifics about the others, but this one needs to go IAW Wikipedia policy. — BQZip01 —talk19:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If this discussion is going to continue (which is certainly fine), let's take it to the talk page so the FAC is kept to comments germane to this article. Analysis of other images is getting too tangential. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk20:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually BQZip01, you are wrong. Hillary did serve as an executive official in the whitehouse. It's called executive privilege (the idea that the president can say some things in private with other political officials they hire due to security reasons) ... in the "Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, Inc. v. Hillary Clinton" case of 1993 they questioned whether this applied to Hillary Clinton. This case was made to see if the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) applied to the health-care-reform panel chaired by then First Lady Hillary Clinton. And that question depended on whether Hillary was an executive official or not. The court decided that the first lady is in officer or employee of the government and that FACA didn't apply to her. So, you can't object that she's called an executive officer because the law interpreted (and upheld) that she is.QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 20:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I never said she was or wasn't an executive official. What I stated was that the creator of this painting was not an executive official and he is the one who actively maintains a copyright on this image. It is not a public domain image. — BQZip01 —talk21:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per previous. I also strongly object to this nomination being restarted. There were many oppose !votes on the last one that will likely not be included again. — BQZip01 —talk18:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the MoS "other cases where a specific image width is appropriate include (but are not limited to) images with extreme aspect ratios, detailed maps, diagrams or charts" exemption is why I was using the fixed px size for all the charts. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No icons per WP:FAC instructions, please. There was a time when I bothered pointing out MOS size issues, but FAC (unfortunately) has been apathetic and dismissive in the past. Indeed, images with particular detail, dimensions, etc. which would be impaired at 300 pixels or less are exempt. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk19:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, re-fixed so the Gallup polls are back to the original px size. The upright switch is being used in all instances where the image would benefit from the switch. The only MOS issues I found were the lead image being smaller than 300px and the soon to be deleted portrait had a px size and was not using upright. --Bobblehead(rants)19:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, this is not a new FAC since you actually deleted the old one, but kept the same name (another problem I have with this "restart" nomination you and Raul seem to do whenever a discussion gets long...why not close the previous nomination as failed and then start a new one so all the discussion remains?!). I have no problem starting over, but if this is a new FAC, then where is the old one? Why is this not attempt #3?
My objections were perfectly actionable, but you deleted them. Quite frankly, I am quite disturbed by this aggressiveness and deleting of others' comments. I'm not saying it should have passed. I'm not saying it shouldn't have passed. But you shouldn't delete anyone else's comments period. Again, I have no problem starting over, but the previous discussion should not have been removed as it gives an improper view of the discussion.
Not to harp on it too much, but please restore the old discussion and make it accessible to all. I have no objection to someone else making the nomination (including you or Raul), but this was not the same article that was nominated by QuirkyandSuch. You restarted this and deleted the old stuff. Please restore. — BQZip01 —talk03:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The old FAC is clearly linked and bolded at the top of this page. This is a new FAC; current opposes should be actionable and based on the current article. If you want to discuss the method that Raul has always used to restart FACs, please take it to the talk page so this FAC isn't disrupted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My comment "Article is not stable by any means. It is currently semi-protected. With over 500 edits in the past 40 days, many not related to this FAC, I feel this is a perfect example of an unstable article." was never addressed by anyone. I even proposed a solution for it with no feedback. — BQZip01 —talk17:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response here not addressed: "Precrime deparment? This article has been discussed at GAR a couple of times, and the meaning of "stability" has been subjected to much debate partly as a consequence. Those opposing this article because they believe it will become unstable once the presedential elections take place this fall are effectively creating a FAC precrime department. The question is whether the article is stable now. If it gets promoted and becomes unstable at a later date, take it to FAR. Unless you want precrime to become a valid objection as part of the FAC process, you need to provide arguments and evidence that the article is inherently unstable now.I've reviewed this article and its edit history in depth several times, and have not found any such evidence. Geometry guy21:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To the contrary. I don't think it is stable now (see my comments above). I also do not believe it will be stable for the foreseeable future. — BQZip01 —talk03:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - In my view the article merits FA status at this time. The FAC process has helped us clean up some inconsistencies in references and other such details. The article is widely watchlisted and closely monitored, and I believe it is within FA guidelines for stability, length, references, comprehensiveness, neutrality, accuracy, and quality of expression. It is easy to navigate, is set up logically, and utilizes sub-articles as needed; the images illustrate different stages of her life effectively. I believe we will be able to maintain its integrity and quality no matter what turn her career takes, as has to happen for all FAs about active subjects. Tvoz→talk00:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Article is inherently unstable as subject is currently running for president of the United States. Let us at least wait to see if she becomes the nominee. If she were to actually win and become the first female president of the United States, her page would change drastically. Awadewit (talk) 02:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, fails 1e (stability). As we get closer to the elections the article will change significantly and chances are we'll be back in FAR in three months time. -- Naerii03:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What will change? Her life story, her biography will not change. The presidential campaign section may need to be updated but we have a whole legion of editors watching and maintaining this page, so I'm not worried about it. I say, promote it now and if it becomes of a significantly lesser quality in the future (for whatever reason, election or not), then we can come back and de-feature it. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 18:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on stability. I had a look again to see if the article currently has stability issues. There's an amusing incident of a vandal correcting a typo in their own incoherent string of profanities, but apart from that just good old fashioned incremental improvement. Here is one diff which shows the many improvements made since 21 April (the day before it was nominated) and here is another diff showing the changes over the previous month or so, when the article was developing due to ongoing primaries. I see no evidence of instability here.
I'm not sure why the crystal ball-gazers continue to believe that "it may become unstable at some point in the future" is an actionable objection. I sincerely hope Awadewit is wrong when she suggests that the "page would change drastically". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a news source or fan site. Most of the material that would go into an encyclopedic article on a newly elected president is already there: her background, history, politics etc. The lead would need to change a bit, and the campaign section would evolve and shrink to maintain its focus, and there would be a new section on her presidency, which would evolve with reliably sourced coverage of that presidency. It won't necessarily be easy to maintain a high quality article in the face of such ongoing events, but all the evidence I have seen, both in the recent edit history, and in all my interactions with the article, is that the main editors of this article are well up to the job. Geometry guy17:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I am wrong. Look at any FA article covering a past US president. The articles are dominated by their presidencies. Moreover, if Clinton became the first female president of the US, I imagine that would take up a fair amount of the article. Awadewit (talk) 05:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I did: the most recent is Ronald Reagon, which does indeed have a substantial section on his presidency, but also a great deal of other biographical information. Reagan was elected in 1980, 28 years ago. So, yes, I agree that if Hillary Clinton is elected, her article will be very different in 28 years time. In fact even if she isn't it probably will be: the article on any sufficiently notable living person is likely to change significantly over such a time period. I'm even willing to concede that if she gets elected, then in 5 years time the article will have a substantial section on her presidency/first term. I fail to see what this has to do with the article's current stability.
I obviously don't have a very good imagination, because I can't think of many ways of stringing out the words "first", "female" and "president", until there are reliable secondary sources analysing the effect on American culture/politics etc. of such a presidency. That will take time.
When I say I hope that you are wrong, I mean precisely this tendency for Wikipedia biographies to overemphasise the recent news and current sensation ("U.S. elects first female president!!!!!") , in place of a more objective and encyclopedic treatment of the life as a whole. This tendency should be resisted, and the team at HRC are doing rather well in my view, e.g. pruning out minor campaign scandals which will have no long term significance. Geometry guy13:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that editors won't wait for reliable, secondary sources. However concientious, they have not done that now, I might add. There is an abundance of news stories and less that stellar scholarly works used as sources. That is apparently the standard for biographies of living people, however, and the editors are not to be faulted for following that standard. If Clinton became the "first female president", analysis would begin the day she was elected and those news stories would inevitably be used, hopefully replaced by better news stories as the analysis became more sophisticated. However, this demonstrates just how unstable the article would become. I share your concern that biographies overemphasize the recent news. It is a hard tendency to avoid, however, and considering the article relies on news reports rather than more analytical sources now does not lead me to believe that tendency would change or even could change: Should the article wait to mention her presidency until scholarly works are written? (Actually, a difficult question, in my opinion.) All I am asking is that we wait to see if she becomes the nominee. The fact that there is a tag in the middle of the article stating "This section contains information about one or more candidates in an upcoming or ongoing election. Content may change as the election approaches" should alert us to a problem. Awadewit (talk) 18:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Awadewit, apart from the debate about stability, I'm interested in your comments about quality of sources. Yes, material related to the 2008 campaign relies upon news stories, because at this point there's nothing else. But as I see it, much of the material regarding the rest of her life relies upon a variety of well-known published biographies, and most of the material in the "Cultural and political image" section relies upon scholarly sources. Excepting the 2008 campaign, what parts of the article do you feel need to use better sources? Wasted Time R (talk) 18:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wasted Time R's response is much more important, so I will be brief. Yes, of course news sources will be used before more scholarly sources become available, but they will be confined to a relatively small proportion of the article as they are now in the campaign section. This won't "take up a fair amount of the article", and it will improve as the sources improve: that is not instability. Geometry guy21:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't even think that series box should be here. It's meant for cases in which there are a series of subarticles that together comprise a sequential biographical narrative, such as Jan Smuts or Isaac Newton. That's not the case here, and I think the existing Template:Hillary Rodham Clinton template at the end suffices to list all the articles related to HRC. But the editor who added the series box here strongly disagreed, and at the time I didn't feel like battling it further. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would support without that series box. You are right. It does not belong. She has her own dedicated template at the bottom of the article. Who is fighting to keep it in the article?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here I am. (And, yes, I made the original Series box.) In the end, all this seems to come down to editors deciding whether there should be a single set of organizing principles for all articles series thoughout Wikipedia and if so what this set of organizing principles should be. Should article series be contrained by an overriding sequentiality, and if any piece should be missing, then a potential series should wait? Despite my having made the box, I'm pretty much Switzerland with regard to this last complaint, actually. The reason I made the series box is the boringly striaghtforward "pro" series argument that Rodham Clinton is a worthy subject and simply that an organized series would facilitate folks' Wiki-research of it; however, Wasted Time R's "con" argument seems to be that this series' components at present might not be thought to "mesh" seemlessly enough to warrant this treatment. Yet, as far as there being a Wikipedia principle of any stringent exclusions of articles from series for reason of nonsequential-ordering, a perusal of various series shows this isn't the case. (Eg the Muhammad series includes nonsequentially-ordered articles about Muhammad's treatment of women and about his Muhammad's military leadership, etc.; the French Revolution series includes nonsequentially-ordered articles about historiography, an events timeline, a glossary of terms, etc.; and other candidates' series inclue such non-sequential articles as the ones about McCain's image or Obama's political positions.) So the only question that remains is if articles to be included in a Rodham Clinton series have enough commonality to conjoin them and if doing so would improve Wikipedia. In either case, whatever organizing principles for series that Widipedia has or should have---whether these should become formalized or left makeshift---they ought to include room for a certain breadth of editorial discretion, for controversial subjects to recieve some semblance of balance or for subjects-generally to allow for the inclusion of subarticles of varying levels of tangentiality depending on whatever the case at hand. — Justmeherenow( )16:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry too much about process: it will work out. I've argued that those comments are not reasonable or actionable. Please see if my comments are challenged. Geometry guy21:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I concur that the those who object because of something that may or may not happen in the future are wrong, BUT, my !vote concerns the current state of the article. That said, until this nomination business is settled, it likely will not calm down and stability will not be maintained until such a time. — BQZip01 —talk21:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed your !vote does, but the only argument you have given is semi-protection, 500 edits in 40 days and a "feeling", which isn't particularly convincing. Geometry guy13:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments The prose is uneven. Some passages flow nicely, while others feature awkward, unclear phrasing. Some examples:
"That election marked the first time an American First Lady" Why the "American" qualifier here? Statement also needs a source, either here or later in the body where it is repeated.
The "American" is there because it's happened in other countries (and we were accused of America-centrism without it); indeed Cristina Fernández de Kirchner of Argentina has recently done what Hillary's trying to do now. I've added a cite for first FL US to run for office in the body of the article. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"which is also located in Cook County." What's the purpose of this awkward addendum? The sentence is already tortured by numerous commas.
"was involved in many activities at church", "earned many merit badges as" "Many" is one of those generic adjectives that just begs for more specificity. What does "many" mean in these instances anyway? I'd suggest recasting ("was active in church and extracurriculars at her public school...").
"while her father, otherwise an authoritarian traditionalist, held the modern notion for the time that his daughter's skills and opportunities should not be limited by being a female." Wordy. "held the modern notion for the time" -> "held the then-progressive notion" (progressive works better than modern there IMO). "not be limited by being a female." -> "not be limited by sex." Opportunities is fine, but how exactly can skills be limited by society? "Authoritarian" is a somewhat loaded adjective. Are we sure we want to use that here? If that's how he is described in sources, I'd suggest using quotation marks.
"who got her to read" This can be better phrased. Sentence is also far too long (try reading it out loud).
"with the minister she saw" Comma necessary for "disambiguation"
"organization.[19][20] and with them supported " Small typo; I tried correcting this myself, but my eyes buggered out trying to decipher the text from the citation templates in the wikicode. Why "and with them"? What does that mean? Led the group in supporting them?
"She proclaimed herself " Context? In a speech? In writing?
"then-popular radical actions against the political system" Quite generic phrasing here. What does this exactly mean? Most problematic is the nebulous definition of "radical" and its inherit conflict with "popular".
I've made changes to deal with the rest of the above items, good points all. Of the parts I've haven't changed: "many" regarding Brownie/Girl Scout awards is due to descriptions that her sash was overflowing with them; "authoritarian" is the kindest way to describe HR's father, as both Morris and Bernstein consider him to have been psychologically abusive to the family in exercising his dominance; and "radical" is necessary to differentiate HR's "work within the system" approach at the time, out of favor with many of her fellow students. Wasted Time R (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Budding, thanks very much for your comments, the more the better! It's good to have fresh eyes on the article. I'll respond in more detail this evening. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose only on stability grounds, until she is off the front page every day. There's still a reasonable chance she'll make the nomination and be elected president, in which case the article would need to undergo a major change. — brighterorange (talk)13:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Oppose (See below.) I have no problems with the article's so-called instability. In general I think this is an impressive piece of work, and I am close to supporting. There are a few issues with the prose, but I hope to go through some of them myself and bring any issues back here. In the meantime...
In the infobox she is listed as "junior senator." Clicking that link takes us only to United States Senate, which doesn't help much. There's a link, however, from that page to Junior senator, which takes us to what is virtually a stub, Senate seniority. However, that stub suggests that the title is mainly a media concotion. Moreover, back in the infobox, it's stated that Moynihan was the previous incumbent of the position: but surely he was the previous senator, not the previous "junior senator"? In short, this is all a rather long-winded way of saying that her title should be "Senator," rather than "Junior senator" --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:11, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with junking "junior", but there are editors out there who obsess over this and will change it back. On an article like this, you learn to pick your fights. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But, um, they're wrong then, aren't they? If the threat of changes from other editors, who do not appear at FAC, is preventing comment here, then I retract what I said earlier about the article's stability. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, they're not wrong, and my previous response on this wasn't on-target. "Junior senator" is widely used in the media; see all these references in New York Times articles for example. More importantly, all of our articles on current U.S. Senators have "Junior Senator" or "Senior Senator" in this place in their infoboxes. If we're going to change one, we need to change a hundred. That should be a project-wide decision at Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Congress, not something made in isolation here. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I see that that's the convention on all articles about Senators. I do think it's misleading (and the wikilink doesn't help), but so it goes. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 13:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"As a child, Hillary Rodham was a teacher's favorite." What does this mean? That she was a teacher's pet? Or that she was a successful (star?) student? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both, as reported by both Morris and Bernstein: an A student and teacher's pet. I avoided the latter because it has a pejorative ring. But am open to suggestion. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it's not even clear to me. What does it mean? Can people be "redistricted"?! Perhaps they can in the US, but I have no idea. Presumably it means something like the school districts changed, right? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, my mistake, sorry Sandy. I now remember that I looked for an article to describe sliming at the time, and couldn't find one. Guess I'll have to write one, yuck ;-) Wasted Time R (talk) 15:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"it stated that "child citizens" were "powerless individuals" and argued that children should not be considered equally incompetent from birth to attaining legal age, but that rather courts should presume competence except when there is evidence otherwise, on a case-by-case basis." I don't understand the connection between the two parts of this sentence. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The argument was, children were considered powerless from birth through age 18. A better approach would be to judge competence on a individual basis, with e.g. a responsible 16 year old perhaps warranting it while obviously a 4 year old wouldn't. But am open to reworking for clarity. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At present, only books are in the "References" section. I think it might be easier were at least some of the other references moved to this section, too. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe "References" should be called "Bibliography"? I don't see the point in putting newspaper/magazine/website references there, since they all collapse to one cite already, with many "letter" references to them. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And here's one resultant confusion: in fact, Gerth and Van Natta have two publications in 2007, one a book, the other an article. So all the references to "Gerth and Van Natta 2007" are in fact ambiguous. However, this is not clear immediately, as the article is hidden away in the inline citations rather than among the References. I'm presuming that in each case "Gerth and Van Natta 2007" refers to the book. But that's only an assumption, and potentially mistaken. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All references to "Gerth and Van Natta 2007" refer to the book, since they have page numbers that wouldn't make sense referring to a NYT article. But the article covers territory that is also in the book; I can get rid of the article use and replace it with book refs. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've now done some copy-editing of the first two sections (to 1992), and will try to return to this later. I do also wonder whether parts of the article are over-referenced, though I recognize that this is in part my own pet peeve, when individual statements are supported by multiple citations. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm okay with almost all of your wording changes, and I appreciate the effort you're putting into the copyedit. But, I've got a strong issue with some of your edits that are marked as "consolidating references". In some cases, you're pulling footnotes that mark specific parts of a sentence out to the end. This makes it harder to the reader to understand what is being used as a cite for what. Remember that this is a controversial and contentious biographical subject. All these cites are in here for a reason; during the three years that I've been working on the article, almost every single statement or claim in it has been challenged at one time or another. So the close citing has a rationale. In other cases, in order to reduce the number of footnotes in the main text, you're folding multiple citations under one footnote. This doesn't seem like a great idea to me, and in some cases you're cloning newspaper article citations in order to make this work. That seems like a really bad idea; it's double maintenance if the cite has to change (and it frequently does, as recent FAC editing should indicate). The whole WP citing system is set up to consolidate multiple uses of a news source to one citation instance in the notes; that's the reason for the <ref name="foo"/> syntax and for the lower-cased-letter backlinks from the citation to the main text. What is your rationale for doing it against this system? Please discuss here before propagating more of these changes into the article. Thx ... Wasted Time R (talk) 04:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I may have to reconsider my first appraisal that stability was not an issue here. It may be, if contentiousness is militating against readibility. Because this is the main problem: the multiple footnotes, especially mid-sentence, break up the text and impede legibility. Perhaps this means that a contentious subject really can't become an FA? Ideally, not. But usually it is easy enough to figure out which reference refers to which fact; where it isn't, that can easily be clarified, and less obtrusively, in the footnote itself. To take an obviously example, previously there was a note immediately after the very first word ("Hillary") of the first sentence of the first section after the lead. What a disruption! I consolidated that note with the one that was at the end of that sentence, with no loss of precision, and plenty (I'd argue) gain in readability. The second sentence was likewise interrupted by a footnote, which I consolidated with the following one, which referred in any case to the very same text, two pages later. Perhaps there are times when my changes have been more arguable, and I'd be happy to reconsider if you provide examples. But on the whole, I'd rather say I hadn't been zealous enough, rather than that I've been too zealous. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you point me to the WP rule or guideline that says that FA articles can't have footnotes in mid-sentence? I have never seen any such thing. As to your "obvious example", I agree it's perfect. The origins of the name "Hillary" are controversial. You may think the matter is silly, but it's there; much editing has gone on in this article over it, which I guess you are unaware of. A footnote after just "Hillary" tells the reader that something about this name requires further explication, and increases the chance that the reader will find it. A footnote after the full "Hillary Diane Rodham was born at Edgewater Hospital in Chicago, Illinois" sentence tells the reader that a source for her being born in Edgewater Hospital is supplied; not very interesting, and very unlikely that the reader will be motivated to check the note. That footnote placement gives no indication that something needs explication about the name "Hillary". I believe strongly that we need to associate footnoting with the precise text involved in cases like this. This position is based on three years' experience with this article and knowing what works and what doesn't. If this loses your support for FAC, I understand and respect your position. But I would much rather the article fails FAC than it becomes unglued on its sourcing. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, there's no rule that says that FA articles can't have mid-sentence footnotes. But the first criterion for FA is that "the prose is engaging, even brilliant." I submit that sticking a footnote after the very first word in the first sentence of the article body makes for problems of readability, let along engagement. Again, it may be that in an article of this sort, which deals with such a contentious subject (as you say), the need to be cover one's ass so minutely therefore militates against engaging prose. If that is so, then we should accept that these articles will not reach FA standards. I'm suggesting a middle way, in this case for instance by consolidating the information from that footnote with the note that's at the end of the sentence, a mere ten words later. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 13:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to engage the reader, by cluing them in as to exactly which material needs further explication. The "ten words later" makes all the difference in this case (there's editors who want the name controversy to be in the main text, not even a footnote at all; there is a balance here that I do not want to upset). I don't consider this "middle way" middle at all; my goal is to satisfy WP:V and WP:BLP and WP:NPOV much more than it is to satisfy WP:WIAFA. If everyone agrees with you that mid-sentencing footnoting flunks the FAC prose requirement, so be it. I'm going to revert this footnoting change, as I don't think it's acceptable. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And however much I recognize that the current text is the more or less battered and bruised survivor of much edit warring, I still think that at times it is over-referenced, though I don't have easy access to the sources to check this out. Look for instance what is currently footnote 26, in which two references are cited (yes, I consolidated them) to back up the claim (and don't tell me it's all that contentious) that "In 1969, she graduated with a Bachelor of Arts, with departmental honors in political science." Now, in this case both references are online, so I can follow them up. Actually, they're both kind of crappy references for the purpose, as it happens. (What, incidentally, are "departmental honors"? The phrase certainly isn't justified by either source.) One would have thought that one of the biographies has, on just one page, the vital information needed that she graduated in 1969 with a BA Honors in Political Science in 1969. Piecing things together like this is both a bit sloppy and overkill. NB I know that this is a Wikipedia weakness on the whole. It'd be nice to try to avoid it in Featured articles. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Piecing together things like this is necessary in places. I've never found a definitive source for what kind of honors she got, nor one biography that has this all in one page (and I've read/looked at nearly a dozen). But regardless of this piece of text, I find cloning of news articles in references (25 ^ Dedman, Bill. "Reading Hillary Rodham's hidden thesis", MSNBC.com, March 2, 2007. Retrieved on March 2, 2007. 26 ^ Hillary Rodham Clinton. The New York Times. Retrieved on April 13, 2008.; Dedman, Bill. "Reading Hillary Rodham's hidden thesis", MSNBC.com, March 2, 2007. Retrieved on March 2, 2007.) absolutely ill-advised. This is a maintenance nightmare. I would much rather have two footnotes here, and I believe that two footnotes rather than citation cloning is the standard practice across WP. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On this particular point, I am surprised. A quick google gives me this page, which is not a particularly good source, but which does provide in one place all the information that these two rather tangential sources are being used to provide: that she graduated with a BA Honors in Political Science from Wellesley in 1969. (Here's a rather better source, FWIW.) I still don't know what "departmental honors" are (and the phrase is not used in those sources). Again, I really do think that similar issues affect other places where there are multiple sources. And again, I know that this problem is, as you say, endemic to WP. Featured articles should try to do better, however. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 14:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, since footnotes take up less space than citations, your strategy of duplicating citations to save on footnotes will drive up the HTML size generated for the article, which we have been at great pains to reduce during this FAC process. With all due respect, I don't see why your "pet peeve" should outweigh longstanding existing practice here, and I really think that such a wholesale change to the footnoting approach of the article should be discussed here or in Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton first, before being unilaterally implemented. Indeed I believe that WP:CITE generally discourages citation style/format/approach churn unless there's a clear consensus in favor of a switchover. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I said "in part" a pet peeve. In the meantime, if the problem is the HTML size, then it would be adviseable to change the article outright to a Harvard or MLA system. But I'm not, of course, suggesting anything like such a wholesale change or switchover (though I do in fact think it would be a good idea). If I were, I would of course raise the issue first, as you suggest. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The <ref name="foo"/> approach does a good job of reducing HTML size; it is used often in WP articles. I don't see what you have against it. And I think undoing uses of this approach is a wholesale change, one that no one has ever advocated here other than you. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, one final comment, on one of these three edits. The original sentence in question was this: "That summer, she interned on child custody cases[40] at the Oakland, California, law firm of Treuhaft, Walker and Burnstein,[41][42] which was well-known for its support of constitutional rights, civil liberties, and radical causes;[42] two of its four partners were current or former communist party members.[42][43][44]" One sentence with seven footnotes. This is surely overkill. What's more, and contra your suggestions earlier, it's really not clear what information each of them can be providing. Presumably, footnote [40] has the detail that she was working on child custody cases. Then are both footnotes [41] and [42] needed to provide the name of hte law firm? Or does one give its location, the other the name? All of them are off-line sources, so I can't check them. I find it hard to believe that the three of them can't be replaced by one source that includes the two (three?) pieces of information that she worked on child custody cases for firm X in place Y. Then we have three footnotes at the end of the sentence, one of which ironically does bring together more than one source, in a manner that I have in fact been proposing.
I may perhaps here have been over-zealous in simplifying the sentence as follows: "That summer, she interned on child custody cases at the Oakland, California, law firm of Treuhaft, Walker and Burnstein,[40] which was well-known for its support of constitutional rights, civil liberties, and radical causes; two of its four partners were current or former communist party members.[41]" I would submit, however, that this is far more readable prose, and that all the necessary information and sourcing can in fact be provided by two footnotes. At least, not seven! But it's true that to make sure of that, and really to reduce the over-referencing, I'd have to go through the sources myself, which I'm not in a position to do. In the meantime, however, I have not eliminated a single reference, enabling someone else to go through and sort out the problem, while ensuring that the sentence is not obstructed by a barrage of numbers in square brackets. Again, we may differ on this. I am speaking only as a reader. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 14:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that citing was overdone on this passage; my bad, due to accreting new material (the New York Sun articles) into existing material (various book refs) without fully revisiting it and rewriting the material in question. I've done that now, and there's a lot less citing. And I've avoided cloning the New York Sun article. Wasted Time R (talk) 16:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You reverted two of my suggested changes:
Here on the basis that "African American" is "an anachronism." I don't think that washes. Should we be saying "negro," then, which likely as not was the language at the time? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't find a way to do it that didn't make it more awkward. The NYT cite uses the same repetition; I say let it be. Readers will get through it without difficulty. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here on the basis that is is "clunky and superfluous" to indicate that the article has shifted from a discussion of Hillary Rodham Clinton to Hillary Rodham. I'm not sure it's either. In fact, there's quite a bit of to and fro between calling her Rodham and calling her Clinton in the sections dealing with her life to 1992. At times, this even threatens to become confusing, or at least makes the reader work to distinguish her from her husband. Anything that makes the reader work is problematic, I think, especially in what is already a relatively demanding article. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article refers to her as "Rodham" consistently until she started using "Clinton" during Bill's 1982 regain-the-governorship campaign (the beginning of the "Later Arkansas years" section), then it refers to her as "Clinton" consistently. This is the standard practice that biographies of her take. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is to and fro if you take the footnotes into account. I can see the logic, but again I suggest that any help that you can give the reader is worth providing. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 13:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The footnotes are also consistent, and go by the date of the source, so a Living History cite to a 1969 event shows as "Clinton 2003" since she was Clinton when she write the memoir. Again, look at the published biographies by Bernstein, Gerth/Van Natta, Troy, etc.; they do it like this too and their readers have managed. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I figured that out. Look, all I can do is provide you my response as a reader. A reader with very little brain, perhaps, but I'm not the only one out there. This is an article that's read, usually at speed, by many hundreds of thousands of people. Some of them have ideological axes to grind, sure, and it's important that the references are there, and are solid. Of course, the majority who are looking to grind their axes won't be happy any which way. So I'd argue that a WP article should at least spare a thought for the more or less casual reader, too, and make his or her life a little bit easier. And that's why the number one criterion for FA status is prose that "is engaging, even brilliant." If the axe-grinders prevent it from being so, then there is, moreover, something inherently unstable about the article, and I'm going to have to oppose its nomination. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 14:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've been agonizing this as I've been keeping the article on my watchlist, and seeing how Wasted Time R has been dealing with challenges to the content. I'm withdrawing my oppose. Apologies for the shilly-shallying. I hope to do some more copy-editing in the next few days, but do think that the article is a real accomplishment, especially given the pressures upon it. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 14:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I respect your position on your interpretation of the criterion. FYI, I'm going to go through your reference consolidations on a case-by-case basis. Ones that are innocuous I'll leave in, but any that involve citation cloning or important loss of context for the footnote I'm going to undo. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jbmurray, although I'm glad you're trying to help I feel somewhat that your suggestions are based more on subjective preference. No article is 100% tilted towards anyones preference in style, it's all about finding a good common ground for everyone. And I feel that you're asking for the article to be dumbed down too much. Terms such as "fish sliming" aren't obsolete or unused, and it would be unfair to pick out things in an article you personally don't know about. And saying she's a "teacher favorite" suggests very strongly the meaning, and you'd have to be very unsure of yourself to qustion it. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 05:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about "subjective preference," but there was nothing disingenuous in my saying 1) I had no idea of what "sliming salmon" entailed and 2) I felt that "teacher's favourite" was ambiguous. Call me dumb. As I've said: I'm simply reporting my response as a reader, who may or may not be typical. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 07:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "She has subsequently opposed the administration on its conduct of the Iraq War, and has opposed it on most domestic issues." -> twice "has opposed" in one sentence 131.111.247.148 (talk) 15:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Just because the topic of the article is of major interest right now, does not necessarily mean that it is unstable and should not be a FA. The article is well written and extremely well referenced. --Splette :)How's my driving?22:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Object based on Stability as mentioned above. HRC's article is likely going to be edited repeatedly as the campaign continues, and that does not meant the extensive new edits will be of high quality on par expected at FAR. Recommend waiting until after November election. Guroadrunner (talk) 21:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Guroadrunner, WP:NOTCRYSTAL. This article has not shown to be unstable, and we can't assume it will be in the future. All these comments about being unstable are based on assumptions into the future and are against wikipedia policy. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 01:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose -- The stability issues above are a concern, but the article also could be improved with respect to overall flow. There also seems to be some inconsistency with regard to paragraph sizing - some paragraphs are way too large and should be broken apart, and there are some that are way too short to be a stand-alone paragraph. There is a one-sentence paragraph at the end of "Early Arkansas years" that should either be merged somewhere, or perhaps elaborated on. "1992 Bill Clinton presidential campaign" could also be expanded. Subsections "Health care and other policy initiatives" and "Whitewater and other investigations" both could also delve into a bit more detail. First of all in the Health care and other policy initiatives, this is again an instance where the first paragraph could be expanded, and then broken apart. There should certainly be more detail about the actual Health care plan itself, and some more detail about the chronology of events surrounding that issue and debate. The subsection Whitewater and other investigations, also leaves me wanting to know more about the various investigations. The second paragraph is quite large, it should be split apart, but also expanded. Certainly some more background and history behind "Filegate" would be helpful, the 2 sentences doesn't really cut it. The "Lewinsky scandal" subsection could also use a bit more, perhaps some examples of public appearances Hillary made during the scandal, in what capacity, etc. The "Political positions" subsection seems a bit choppy, compare to the article Barack Obama, which uses a paragraph format. That would be preferable. "Writings and recordings" - could include info on how the works were received (not just how they sold), positively/negatively in book reviews. Cirt (talk) 10:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments, and I'll try to explain the rationale on some of these points. Paragraphs are as long or as short as they need to be to cover the topic at hand, and there's a school of thought that says varying paragraph lengths make text easier to read (less monotonous in visual appearance), not harder. The end of "Early Arkansas years" has a two-sentence paragraph: one is Chelsea being born, which is a momentous development in HRC's life and deserves a text break, and the other is Bill being defeated for re-election, which closes the section and signals one of HRC's turning points (it was after this that she adopted "Clinton" as her last name, for instance). You're absolutely right that lots of material could be further expanded on, but there are already overall length constraints on this article, and generally other articles is where the expansion is done. So 1993 Clinton health care plan goes into much more detail about HRC's role in the areas you mention. So Whitewater controversy, White House travel office controversy, and White House FBI files controversy each cover HRC's role in those controversies in greatly added detail. You are right that the last of these (Filegate) gets the least amount of coverage here; that's because it was the one where per the Independent Counsel, the charges against HRC had the least merit. Lewinsky scandal is a tough one, since our article on it doesn't cover HRC's role much; I'll see if I can add something. Regarding "Political positions", there is a whole Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton article on it. For length and fairness reasons, a decision was made not to try to summarize that content here — we'd end up with superficial, boiled-down versions of her positions that would mask complexity, nuance and contradiction. And many of her most important positions (e.g. Iraq War, supreme court justices) are already covered via the "United States Senator" section's bio material. Regarding the books, again, the articles It Takes a Village and Living History cover reviews, ghostwriting controversies, and more. I guess the bottom line on all this is that Wikipedia doesn't have one Hillary article, it has many. Sometimes I think that if we pulled all the HRC material on WP out of where it is and into one place, we'd have a book-length treatment! Wasted Time R (talk) 12:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cirt - I think the variations for paragraphs makes more sense esp from a neurology students perspective, variations in text help to give each section more to differentiate between them which helps users find information they had remembered being in the article. If they have both section titles and physical differences such as text length it's easier to mentally categorize them, which helps to find information. And there is no policy that says we need sections to be alike in size, that would be really counter productive because it would mean we have to either delete relevant information to match smaller sections or add useless information to smaller sections! Your "reasons" seem very odd, as if you're trying with all your might to find something wrong with a good article. I think the fact that you would compare the Hillary Clinton article to the Barack Obama so quickly shows a conflict of interest in you being here. Just because I voted for Dennis Kucinich doesn't mean that I'm going to nominate his article instead of the Hillary one ... I nominated this one because I felt that it was a really good article and should be featured despite my personal preference. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 13:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quirky, I think the middle part of your comment is not appropriate. I don't think that Cirt's comments are odd, or that he/she has a conflict of interest; people compare similar-topic articles all the time. I believe that each article is different, and that how things are best done for political figure A's article doesn't necessarily mean that's the best approach for political figure B's article, but that doesn't mean that such comparisons are off-limits. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response and Comment for FAC administrator -- Regarding a claim of conflict of interest from QuirkyAndSuch about anyone comparing the Obama article to the HRC article. I believe QAS has a very open conflict of interest that is pro-Clinton and should be weighed as such for this. Noting the contributions history of this user shows he wanted multiple deletions of many Obama-related articles. Obama is Clinton's rival in the Democratic primary. Also, a cursory look at QuirkyAndSuch's MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/elmerbront on 11 May at 8:50 MST shows Clinton is his very open preference, marked with pro-HRC images and video. Clinton also is slotted as #1 in his top 4. The MySpace has the same real-life name, real-life location and same photo and age shown at this user's Wikipedia page. Statements from the FAC nominator that he simply thinks this is a good and well-written article omits his inherent interest and support of this political, and does not consider the public Internet exposure this candidate will receive from being a Featured Article on Wikipedia during one of the most important times in this candidate's fight for political nomination in the U.S. In short, FAC nom has conflict of interest. -- Guroadrunner (talk) 16:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is in response to:
"Just because I voted for Dennis Kucinich doesn't mean that I'm going to nominate his article instead of the Hillary one ... I nominated this one because I felt that it was a really good article and should be featured despite my personal preference." (italics mine)
Tentative Support I disregard all stability arguments and see no outstanding valid objections. My support is tentative due to the fact that it seems someone is ignoring my series box objectiona above. The article is perfectly fine otherwise.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 13:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and removed the "series box" from this article and the others it appeared in. The existing HRC template remains at the bottom of all the articles. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment for FAC Administrator -- Nom has very public conflict of interest weighted in favor of the article's subject, and nomination should be weighed as such on this merit. User contributions include multiple deletion nominations of Barack Obama-related articles. Obama is Clinton's political rival in the Democratic primary. Furthermore, a cursory look at QuirkyAndSuch's MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/elmerbront on 11 May at 08:50 MST shows Clinton is his very open preference, marked with pro-HRC images and video. Clinton also is slotted as #1 in his top 4. The MySpace has the same real-life name, real-life location and same photo and age shown at this user's Wikipedia page. Statements from the FAC nominator that he simply thinks this is a good and well-written article omits his inherent interest and support of this politician, and does not consider the public Internet exposure this candidate will receive from being a Featured Article on Wikipedia during one of the most important times in this candidate's fight for political nomination in the U.S. In short, FAC nom has conflict of interest. -- Guroadrunner (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for letting me know, although I have some qualms about that in fear that a political machine (or corporation) could rally and push through a substantive victory in free advertising by manipulating Wikipedia's feature article space. I'm not accusing Quriky of that, but I will keep in mind that editor backgrounds or affiliaitions, both on Wikipedia and off Wikipedia, will not be considered by any manner for any FA nom. I suppose the basis is sort of like WP:OTHERSUTFFEXISTS, only for editors? Correct me if wrong. -- Guroadrunner (talk) 16:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe I said "not be considered in any manner". If you want to pursue AGF and editor affiliations (such as WikiProject and other "fan support"), pls consider using the talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - My objections still stand. The "Political positions" section could be better in paragraph format. As that was the only thing that I had used to compare with the article Barack Obama, a Featured Article, that was not a content but a style comparison. I object to the insinuations made about me above by QuirkyAndSuch (talk·contribs) Diff, and I request that they either be stricken by him, or removed from this discussion and moved to the talk page. They have nothing to do with a FAC discussion about the article, but are rather focused on a single contributor, and are thus highly inappropriate. Cirt (talk) 22:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As my comments above indicated, I also didn't like at all what Quirky said. Regarding "Political positions", do you object to the content, the presentation, or both? Wasted Time R (talk) 04:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both, as stated above. True, the article cannot go into the same depth as independent articles on each of the various topics covered, but as I noted above there should be a bit more, to give more context. Cirt (talk) 17:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are 39 different issue areas currently covered by Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton. How many of these deserve mention in the "Political positions" summary section, and which should it be? Should areas where she has had a variety of stances be avoided in the interests of simplicity (e.g. interventionism)? If the position is already covered in other sections of the main article, such as "United States Senator", (e.g. taxes, immigration, Iraq, homeland security, and some others), should it still be repeated in the "Political positions" summary? I'm not trying to be difficult, but in my experience with working on a bunch of candidates' articles, trying to summarize political positions in this way leads to both repetition and oversimplification, the worst of both worlds. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose With respect to the various opposition due to stability concerns, we have to try to at least clear a path for a contentious topic to become an FA. If there are enough active editors to watch the page for BLP violations and sourcing, I think it's possible to maintain FA quality. As such, I don't think "possible instability" is a legitimate reason for opposing. However, there are some solid and current reasons that this is not ready for FA. Some more specific comments:
I have major concerns about a point jbmurray brought up, even though he struck his opposition. The article is borderline unreadable because the footnoting has been managed with an eye toward fending off edit warriors and not toward readability. You say the Wellesley Young Republicans aren't Rockefeller Republican-oriented, eh? Well here's a mid-sentence citation in your eye. The general readership won't thank you.
Well, I respect your viewpoint, but there isn't much I can say on this beyond what I said to jbmurray. The article's first duty is to conform to WP:BLP and WP:V and to protect itself against edits-with-agendas. If the close citing that results prevents it from being FA in your judgement, I won't try to convince you otherwise. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The prose is quite measured and not all that engaging. Wordiness is easily spotted (ex. "In terms of public perception of her views, in a Gallup poll conducted during May 2005, 54 percent of respondents considered Senator Clinton a liberal, 30 percent considered her a moderate, and 9 percent considered her a conservative.") but overall I did not spot any flatly wrong sentences. I would say the prose is "correct" but not "brilliant". My main concern is the first one. --Laser brain(talk)15:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I, too, thought the Rockefeller Republicans citation cut the sentence askew. However, it did get me to read what a Rockefeller Republican was (never heard of it, antiquated term). Recommend changing sentence structure around so the main point goes first, then background information second. This means it's muddled. Recommend changing to something akin to: During her freshman year, she served as president of the Wellesley Young Republicans organization[1][2], a politically moderate club in the Rockefeller Republican spirit[3]. With them, she supported the elections of John Lindsay and Edward Brooke.[4]
Not every mid-sentence citation is unappealing, but some other citations that make the text clunky are
Hillary[5] Diane Rodham was born at Edgewater Hospital in Chicago, Illinois.[6] ---- Nice story embedded in the cite ref coding, but it's quite factual this person's name is Hillary. Information in cite ref could be outmoded into the article, or scrapped.
This one has been discussed many times by now. A lot of people think this is a telling story of Hillary's tendency to mendacity, so it can't be scrapped altogether. But putting it in the main text would slow the beginning narrative to a halt and give it excess weight. So a footnote is appropriate, but if the footnote is at the end of the sentence, readers will think it's documenting her birthplace, not her name origin, and not look at it. Thus the footnote needs to be where it is. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see footnotes after clauses of sentences like this as disruptive; the comma represents a natural pause and partial break, that the footnote rests within. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
She was named Arkansas Woman of the Year in 1983[9] and Arkansas Mother of the Year in 1984.[10] -- clunky, but not as jarring
Clinton was the first female member on Wal-Mart's board, added following pressure on chairman Sam Walton to name a woman to the board.[11] Once there, she pushed successfully for Wal-Mart to adopt more environmentally-friendly practices,[11][12] but was largely unsuccessful in a campaign for more women to be added to the company's management,[11][12] and was silent about the company's famously anti-labor union practices.[12][13] --- balanced coverage, but why so many refs in the middle of these sentences? Could this be broken up more?
Clinton's time on the Wal-mart board is very contentious, but I agree this citing was overdoing it; I've simplified it considerably. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most polls placed Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Senator John Edwards of North Carolina as Clinton's closest competitors in the early caucus and primary election states.[14] Clinton set records for early fundraising,[15] which Obama then topped in the following months[16] before Clinton later regained the money lead,[17] but Clinton generally maintained her lead in the polls.[18] --- wow that's a lot of refs all over the place. Can we get a single-reference fundraising chart to supplant all these multiple refs of who raised the most in each fiscal quarter?
I've replaced the middle three cites with one. Someday books will be published on the campaign, and a lot of this news story citing can be replaced with smaller, more economical, more stable book cites. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also--
"She is regarded as the most openly empowered presidential wife in American history, save for Eleanor Roosevelt." / Save for Eleanor Roosevelt? Does this conjecture mean that Roosevelt was more openly empowered? Says who? Too firm in stating. Also, re: it's source: is Verve magazine fit with WP:RS regarding politics? How so?
This means both ER and HRC were openly empowered, and it's hard to compare or rank the two. I've added another cite to this, from the Gil Troy book (a historian who specializes in First Ladies). Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. Can the Verve Magazine reference be killed, as it still is used as a reference and the onus is to give proof it passes WP:RS. Guroadrunner (talk) 23:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I believe this is a legit WP:RS. Chidanand Rajghatta is a respected foreign affairs writer — I found lots of articles of his in The Times of India, where I think he's also editor of the foreign affairs section or something like that. Verve seems to be an Indian equivalent of an upscale women's magazine in the U.S., and other political articles I checked in it seemed reasonably serious. There's a long tradition of foreign reporting on U.S. politics being sometimes more insightful than native reporting ... anyway, I rewrote the citation to give the author wlink and whatnot, but I think this deserves to stay. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Lazio blundered during a September debate by seeming to invade Clinton's personal space trying to get her to sign a fundraising agreement." -- huh? I mean, did he get really physically close to her? Did he inappropriately touch her? A bit vague.
At the end of October, Clinton suffered what writers for The Washington Post, ABC News, The Politico, and other outlets characterized as a rare poor debate performance against Obama, Edwards, and her other opponents. --- Needs a comma after "other outlets"
In terms of public perception of her views, in a Gallup poll conducted during May 2005, 54 percent of respondents considered Senator Clinton a liberal, 30 percent considered her a moderate, and 9 percent considered her a conservative.[287] --- 2005, eh? In an article section about 2008? there surely are more recent polls that cover the independent voter's perception.
This article covers her whole history, not just now, so I consider 2005 to be okay. And these numbers haven't changed much, at least not during her Senate era. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Ratings of Clinton's votes from a number of other interest groups are tracked by Project Vote Smart.[300]" --- Okay, that's nice to see. But that's what Project Vote Smart does. How is it's mention related to Clinton? To me, this infomration looks superfluous. Nominator, why is it not?
Overall, it seems that it's pretty good, but the article in question is not yet ready. On this basis I oppose. I also still put forth my opposition based on political timeliness that the FA should not be granted until after the election. To me, this seems to be a timed FAC (further comments on talk page) and until Clinton is no longer a political factor in this race, Wikipedia should not give site-wide highlight in such a large way to a political candidate, which could act as a swaying influence on the race. This goes the same for McCain or attempting to make Obama the front-page featured article again. WP is not a soapbox for a candidate's supporters during an election.
If you're a politics junkie, you know that Clinton already is no longer a factor. But everyone has a different view on this overall issue of campaigns and FAC, and I respect yours. I also thank you for the detailed comments you've given. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for working with me on this. I know I've ruffled feathers here earlier. However, Clinton is still a candidate with a mathematical and/or realistic shot of winning, meaning she still is a factor. The popular media has simply been calling her down, but watch what happens after West Virginia's primary, for example. My opposition on the content is allayed, but my opposition on timeliness still stands. -- Guroadrunner (talk) 04:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
She isn't a factor, if you do the math you'll see she'd have to win over 70% of all primaries and much over 50% of superdelegates. These possibilities aren't even in the realm of margin of error. Every single poll done for each state would have to be incorrect by a huge margin of error, a miscalculation larger than any in any of these polls histories. I think we can stop pretending she is a factor in this race, and look at article quality. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 09:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Florida and Michigan reversing puts Clinton in to a hard-charging position. Conversing about this is derailing the FA's intent. Until you can prove she is no longer an official candidate for the Democratic primary, then my oppose stands on that ground. -- Guroadrunner (talk) 19:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per stable criteria; I don't think article should be nominated for at least a month after the presidential election. That gives you more time to work on the non-stability issues raised here! :) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This extended FAC process has made the article much better. I believe the 1(e) concerns are misplaced. The featured article criterion for stability says: "'Stable' means that the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day, except for edits made in response to the featured article process." While the article is the subject of frequent vandalism, its substance has been sufficiently refined that the only changes should be the addition of material describing new events as they happen. If this violates 1(e), then so does the biography of every living person. Coemgenus14:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This article, I believe does not meet the standards of being a featured article. There are plenty of problem with the article, not the least of which is the lack of stability. ~ UBeR (talk) 02:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support The article appears to meet all the criteria for a FA. Stability is a bit shakey, but it appears to have been sustained well so far, and I think that this stability will only increase in the coming months. Further, the Barack Obama article sets a precedent, showing that articles such as the this one can maintain some level of stability while retaining quality. Ixistant (talk) 12:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, fails 1e (stability), for the reason that the subject of the article is currently engaged in a life-changing political contest. Let's wait until after the end of the present contest. Per User:Guroadrunner, above, I have reason to believe that the proposal has been made for poilitical reasons, not for reasons of the good of wikipedia. I do not believe those who seek to game the system should be rewarded. --Tagishsimon(talk)17:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
comment I'd support these opposes if I was offered a a single case of evidence that this article is not stable. WP:NOTCRYSTAL sums up why we can't assume it will be. And I should note, another primary has concluded, and this article is just as stable. I noticed that all the stability arguments never give evidence of any instability that has shown. I've seen featured articles that are actually less stable than this one. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 06:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is simple. There are two possible outcomes to the nomination: Hillary recovers and wins the nomination, or Hillary concedes. If it is the former, then there needs to be a substantial write-up on how her nomination recovered, with proper summary style allusions back to her presidential campaign article. In case the nomination fails, there needs to be some writing on why and how it failed. Those sections are not present right now, and they need to be to satisfy 1(b) concerns. Since the content of the article will change substantially in the foreseeable future, the article fails the 1(e) criterion as of now. The other concern is answered by WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff)05:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's be honest here, you're talking about this article having stability and breadth of coverage issues because it is missing a paragraph at most and a paragraph that can't be written because of WP:CRYSTAL concerns. The presidential campaign section is a summary of the main article Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008 and that article should and will give the depth of coverage that is deserving of Clinton's possible nomination/defeat and the reasons behind the nomination/defeat. Given the logic being applied to the stability and breadth opposes, no biography of a living person can be a Featured Article since they are constantly making their history and the articles are constantly in need of updating of some sort.-Bobblehead(rants)16:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: At the top of this page (Wikipedia:FAC) it says: "For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be achieved that it meets the FA criteria". The link on consensus doesn't define it in the review process, but my common-sense assumption is that all, or a very significant majority, of FAC reviewers must support a nomination before a consensus can be declared. On the basis of the discussions on this page, that situation will never be achieved on Hillary Rodham Clinton. Supports and opposes have been more or less balanced since the nomination began; each new support gets a balancing oppose, and vice versa. So, with two strong forces diametrically opposing each other, the nomination is about as far from achieving consensus as it is possible to be, yet it remains open. Is there a justification for this? Brianboulton (talk) 14:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Using that standard almost no political figure will ever be promoted. Many objectors don't object within the WP:WIAFA parameters so you can not count support/oppose. Stability by some definitions is related to edit wars and not lifechanging events or important living people could never get promoted. It might be the case that all stability oppositions get thrown out in a sense.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Throwing out all stability objections because you don't like them? It is one of the criteria. If you don't like it, then try and get it changed. But as long as it is one of the criteria, it is a valid opposition. — BQZip01 —talk01:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, there is a fair objection to not allowing supporters of a candidate to push for that candidate's FAC during an election. Wikipedia's featured article placement is a major coup when it comes to eyeballs from a marketer's perspective. When a politician is not a candidate, this is a different situation in my view. -- Guroadrunner (talk) 06:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. If it is a mere tally vote, then right now the standings are 8 support/12 oppose, plus nominator's automatic support. If it isn't a tally vote, then arguments from opposers and rebuttals from supporters have reason to be weighted. Guroadrunner (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As an active Barack Obama supporter, I support this nom. My point is that controversial persons probably never pass based on vote count. Also, often times people don't remove objections after issues are resolved. This has happened to me a few times. I support, but don't necessarily see this passing right now. I am just saysing it is not an open and shut case.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The writing is almost there, and this probably should be promoted if it's polished up. Here are bits at random that I caught. The whole text should be sifted through by someone new; surely it won't be hard to find a word-nerd for this? Not a long job.
"as well as sitting on the board of Wal-Mart and several other corporate boards."—Something wrong with that? Board of boards?
Angle: "In the 2008 presidential nomination race, Clinton succeeded in winning more primaries and delegates than any other woman in U.S. history." This begs the question of what other women have undergone the process, and is probably an insignificant base against which to compare her achievement in this respect. Strange. Why not "the first woman to ..."?
There have been others, such as Shirley Chisholm in 1972, who won 152 delegates and, by some definitions, a primary or two. What we really want to say is, "she's the first woman ever to have a real chance of winning the presidency (even if she didn't win)", but all attempts at that were rejected by other editors who thought we were challenging Obama's supremacy. So this is what we have. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"in order to live with her"—my pet hate. Spot the two redundant words. There are other examples to be weeded out, too.
The full clause is "Clinton canceled his original summer plans in order to live with her in California". I'm trying, but I don't see the two redundant words. The "in order" can't be removed without reversing the meaning. I've added a comma after "summer plans", in case that helps to parse it.Wasted Time R (talk) 11:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Marriage and family, law career and First Lady of Arkansas"—Can't you find a neater title?
No, because all four things were going on at the same time, and all were very important. And because Wikipedia doesn't have an indexing mechanism, the Table of Contents often serves as a mini-index, which can justify longish section headings at times. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed this. Thanks for your comments and your "How to satisfy Criterion 1a" essay, it's very good even if this article doesn't make you believe I've read it ;-) Wasted Time R (talk) 11:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
^In 1995, Hillary Clinton said her mother had named her after Sir Edmund Hillary, with Sherpa Tenzing the first mountaineer to scale Mount Everest, and that was the reason for the unusual "two L's" spelling of her name. However, the Everest climb did not take place until 1953, more than five years after Clinton was born. In October 2006, a Clinton spokeswoman said she was not in fact named after the mountain climber; rather, this account of her name's origin "was a sweet family story her mother shared to inspire greatness in her daughter, to great results I might add." See Hakim, Danny (2006-10-17). "Hillary, Not as in the Mount Everest Guy". The New York Times. Retrieved 2008-04-25. and "Hillary vs. Hillary". Snopes.com. 2006-10-26. Retrieved 2007-11-23.
I'm nominating this article for featured article because... it has gone endured much work from a number of editors, including myself. The article is now a comprehensive overlook of the museum's history and collection. I look forward to reading your comments! Lazulilasher (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Current ref 1 "Sandler Linda "Louvre's 8.3 million visitors..." lacks a publisher
Reply to Ealdgyth: Thanks for checking the refs. Comment #1 now has publisher added (Bloomberg): [4], Comment #2 was removed as was the sentence as I didn't feel it necessary to the article, and Comment #3 was resourced to a book: [5]Lazulilasher (talk) 20:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The map under the Location and access section overlaps the text of the Notable works section in my browser (Firefox 2.0.0.14/Windows XP). BuddingJournalist20:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to BuddingJournalist and TravellingCari: Darn...same issue on my computer, also...I thought it was only me and my Commodore 64 (joke). Anyway, I am working on it now and will post when fixed. I made the map, so I am loathe to remove...but, well...it might have to go... Lazulilasher (talk) 20:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think Template:Clear might work on the map problem. I am still looking the latest version of the article over, but note that images should all be set to thumb so reader preferences on size take over (with the exception of infoboxes, maps, and panoramas - can also use thumb and "upright" for vertical images to make them not as wide). See WP:MOS#Images. Ruhrfisch><>°°20:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Same here, was just about to say that here. Struck that portion of my comment. I'm going to have a more detailed read-through later but it's all looking very good. TravellingCarithe Busy Bee21:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. I am only familiar with the Louvre during the sixteenth and early seventeenth century, so my comments concentrate on that period. It seems to me far too skimpily passed over.
I feel that the unique work of Lescot and Goujon needs to be given its due. French Renaissance architecture of this period is a remarkable and special thing, mixing elements of classicism and mannerism in a new way. Acording to Anthony Blunt, "it is possible to talk of Lescot's style as a form of French classicism, having its own principles and its own harmony". And according to Ivan Cloulas, Goujon created "an art of immense sophistication and refinement"; he says of Goujon's sculptural friezes and ornamentation: "The most perfect conception in all of French architecture, celebrated from the moment of its completion, this façade made ingenious use of compositions reminiscent of those devised by Michelangelo for the Sistine ceiling".
No mention is made of the keep which Francis I removed.
No mention is made of Lescot's ceiling for Henry II's chamber, carved by Scibec de Carpi, which still survives. In Blunt's opinion, it "marks an epoch in French interior decoration".
There should, I think, be a mention of the interior decoration of Lescot's new wing, which was highly original, particularly the four caryatids of Goujon, which were monumental and unprecedented in France.
Catherine de' Medici should, I believe, be credited with the decision to join the Louvre to the Tuileries with a long gallery (as early as 1576), though Lescot probably came up with the "grand design" even earlier. Henry IV was merely the final carrier out. The ground floor of the first part of this section, the Petite Galerie, was completed in Catherine's lifetime.
The article says that Henry IV built the Grande Galerie in 1594, but I find this hard to believe. After all, he entered Paris for the first time in his reign in March of that year. It would be more accurate to say that Henry began work on the linking gallery in that year. David Buisseret suggests that the work was completed between 1596 and 1606 (Tobie Matthew reported in 1605 that the gallery was "within forty paces of completion"; and it is recorded that you could pass from the Louvre to the Tuileries through the gallery by 1606). Henry IV can be credited with the idea of building the northern link between the two palaces, though he didn't carry this out himself. qp10qp (talk) 22:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to Qp10qp: Thanks for your comments. Well, I was concerned about the length of the article and had some reservations about going to deeply into the history as an article, Palais du Louvre, exists and might be more appropriate for more depth (length of history section was also mentioned in the article's Peer Review). However, I do agree that Catherine de Medici should be mentioned as well as a deeper description of Lescot. I'll leave a message on your talk page after edits are completed. Lazulilasher (talk) 20:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to Qp10qp: Ok, I addressed your comments...I agree, the 16th century does require more weight. Please let me know what you think of the edits (also, note that the diffs aren't the final version--I did go through and copy edit, so if the diffs seem a bit disjointed, please refer to the article):
Lescot & Goujon: I fleshed out the section about these two, including mentioning the Salle des Caryatides. Please see here.
Scibec de Carpi/Lescot's ceiling: See this diff. I didn't mention that the ceiling has been moved, but I did note the departure from the traditional French style at that time.
'The keep: Noted removal of medieval keep under Francois I here.
Catherine de'Medici and the idea to link the two palaces: Noted here.
The Grande Galerie: A bit more detail was added and more specific wording was used. My source said that the link was finished by 1610, which gives the possibility that it was done earlier.
Oppose at the moment, and I suspect for all this round, as I think the article needs a lot of work. The section on the building is actually longer than the supposed "main article", Palais du Louvre (though that is better in parts), but neither do such an important and complex building anything like justice. The material on the collections has far too much emphasis on when and how things got there, as opposed to what actually is there. One of the 8 departments, Near Eastern Antiquities, is missing completely. (now added) There are generally far too many factoids assembled in a rather random fashion:
On 2 December 1851, Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte, who had been elected President of the Republic, staged a coup d'état by dissolving the National Assembly and ushering in the Second French Empire. Between 1852 and 1870, the French economy grew and the museum added 20,000 new pieces to its collections and the link to the Tuileries was completed via the Pavillon de Flore.
The section on "sculpture" reads, in its entirety:
The sculpture curatorial department contains "modern" sculpture.[33] The Louvre has been a repository of sculpted material since its time as a palace; however, the first display of medieval, Renaissance, and modern works did not occur until 1824. Initially, the collection was relatively small, with about 100 works and, because of government focus on Versaille, it remained so until 1847 when Léon Laborde was given control of the department. By 1855 there were 388 pieces on display. Initially, the collection was organized under the department of antiquities but was given autonomy in 1871, and in 1986 all works from after 1850 were relocated to the new Musée d'Orsay. As part of the Grand Louvre project, the sculpture department was separated into two exhibition spaces. The French collection is on display in the Richelieu wing, while foreign works are located throughout the Denon wing.[33]
Yes, but what have they actually got? What does "modern" mean here? And so on. Do we really need to know that in "1847 ... Léon Laborde was given control of the department"? The whole thing reads much too much like the "History of the Collection" bits museums love to start their guides with, which no one ever reads, moving on to the actual current contents. Some basic things the article doesn't tell you: 1) The Louvre has by a mile the most important collection of French old master paintings and sculpture in the world; 2) It has hardly any English paintings, and not many Spanish ones (a "modest" collection, as my guide says); 3) the "decorative arts" collection includes arguably the most important collection of Early Medieval objects in the world. Johnbod (talk) 23:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to Johnbod: Hey there. Thanks for the comments. Well, concerning the departments, my thought-process was that the significant works should be listed together, at the end, as they ended up being rather "list-y" and I thought it more appropriate to have detail about the pieces contained in their respective articles. Perhaps that wasn't the best course of action, but it seemed to be the clearest as there exists also a category of the Louvre's collections. I figured that the department's should contain information about the history of acquisition, history of the department, etc. Regarding the significance of the museum, I avoided out-right writingthat because I wanted that to come through via the text and demonstration of the notable works at the end. Perhaps that didn't happen.
The word "modern" means after 1850, as the other works were placed in the D'Orsay, I guess that could be made explicitly clear--although my intention was for "modern" to be implicitly defined by after 1850 as the earlier works were moved to the D'Orsay. Lazulilasher (talk) 00:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Correction Oops, I'd meant to say the later works were moved to the D'Orsay and the ancient were in the Greek/Etruscan/Roman department. Anyway, I'm adding Near Eastern, as that should definitely be there.... Lazulilasher (talk) 00:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't necessarily object to the list in itself, but the departmental sections should be more relevant summaries. Also, the whole later part of the article, devoted to the collections, is referenced only to the Louvre website, not even one of the Guides like Mignot. Johnbod (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) hi johnbod, thanks for taking the time and replying. I was busy real-world yesterday, so I was away from en-wiki. during that time I've come to agree that the latter sections need some buffing, as well. So, I'm going to the library to fill in the blanks. I think I'll be ble to get this done by the deadline, so I'll notify you when complete. thanks for the comment (lazulilasher via mobile device that does not have tilda key)
Hey! Thanks for the note of encouragement. I think it can get there. Actually, I really like the British Museum article--I thought it was GA--and initially Finetooth and I did draw a bit of the organization from it. I've been thinking about controversy, also. The French wiki has it, so you're right...I'll probably add something to that extent. Btw, I think it's funny that you mention Mignon's book....coincidentally, I'm holding it in my hands at this moment. Ok, back to work, now... Lazulilasher (talk) 00:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note, an article stands on it's own for the purpose of a FA nomination. You noted that the sub article on the building wasn't larger than the material here, but that doesn't affect this FAC. The quality of the section in this article on the building does, but per WP:SS the material in this article should be relatively short since this article has to cover a lot of material. - TaxmanTalk17:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose article has various problems from simple to fix to rather fundamental
"Third Republic to present" and "Modern developments" overlap more fundamentally than just "to present" covering modern developments. The section on the "Axe historique" which is poorly captioned for the image and not well explained seems to end with the mention of the Paris Commune at the very beginning of the third Republic--not very modern. I also tend to think the new offshoot museums should be in a different section.
While discussion of the building is well fleshed out the discussion of the art is not. Also, it primarily uses the Louvre website which should generally be avoided at least as being the only source for a paragraph.
Little mention of the wings?
"Notable works" completely unsourced. This might be a valuable section to use the Louvre website as a reference.
Reply to Grenavitar: Ok, thanks for the comments. Much was noted above, so I am in the process of addressing it (most particularly the emphasis on museum holdings) and I think I can get it too a much higher level before this closes. On another note, regarding the sourcing of the notable works, I was thinking that this should perhaps be broken off as a list, as it is rather unwieldly. As for sourcing, does it need to be sourced as it is mainly a list of well-known pieces? I'll notify you when edits are completed on the other issues. Lazulilasher (talk) 22:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Another reply: We've been using Palazzo Pitti (FA) as our model article, and that article has the notable works in a separate list. We've discussed doing the same, but my feeling was that the article was not long enough to justify the move. However, I just moved the list into a separate article, as the additions to the department section are making the current article too long. I think it is much cleaner. Lazulilasher (talk) 22:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The department sections have been redressed and the issues above have been addressed, hopefully the article looks good now. As always, I await feedback :) Lazulilasher (talk) 01:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—Weird writing. By that I mean opaque, unexplained, difficult to read prose. And I've only got to the end of the second para. Looking through quickly, it seems to fail 1a. But it has promise, and with a good copy-editor or two (not people who are close to the text already), might just be brought up to standard in time.
Opening—just a thought: I wonder whether most readers can engage better with hectares (acres) than massive values of sq m and ft? Do we need "the structure's"?
"The museum is on the Right Bank, in the neighborhood referred to as the 1st arrondissement and lies between the Seine River and the Rue de Rivoli."—Where would the comma be better placed?
The structure was begun—surely it's the construction of the building that began. And I'm confused about whether that first construction was of a fortress or of the building we see now. I suppose I'll work it out if I read on and think carefully. Do I need to hit the link to "Capetian dynasty" or "Philip II" to work it out? "and has been used as a residence." is odd after all of those opaque chronological clues. Then we immediatly have "used as" again.
Were the "modern museum standards" those that were set during the Grand Louvre project, or just modern standards that were applied then?
"The museum is divided among eight curatorial departments, contains some of the world's most celebrated artworks and displays almost every genre of Western Art. In addition, the collection displays pieces of Egyptian, Oriental, and Islamic origin." I find the two ideas in the first sentence not to fit well with each other (the first one kind of begs the question, don't you think?). And since the second item leads smoothly into the non-Western statement, perhaps they should be joined instead.
Reply to Tony1: Hi Tony, thanks for reading the article and encouraging. Do you, perhaps, have any good referrals to a recommended editor to help prune the prose? I'll address the other points as soon as I get a decent internet connect. Lazulilasher (talk) 21:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-nominator. The subject is pretty controversial, even after 20 years. GA process was unusually long and contentious. Thanks in advance! :-) —Rob(talk)21:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
#Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived.
An article that is listed at WP:LOCE and needs copyediting, by definition, doesn't comply with crit 1a. Perhaps you meant to close out that request? If you're acknowledging that it still needs copyediting, that would mean it's not ready for FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. I read this on an LoCE page and was confused "The article is a featured article candidate, and the quality of the prose is the only remaining objection to its promotion to featured article status. Copyediting should not be requested if there are other significant alterations to make to the article." I figured a "pre-emptive request" was OK. But I will close the LoCE request. —Rob(talk)22:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a holdover from a time when the LOCE actually worked, and when we sent articles there during FAC when everything else was fine, but some prose issues had been identified. They used to respond quickly; since they no longer do, if an article needs copyediting, it shouldn't come to FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Current ref 31 "Lehmann, Daniel J. and Golb, Art "City settles suit over Washington painting" is lacking a publisher.
I like this article, and I did when I read it at GA. Just a few of points to address before I can support it:
Give it a thorough copy edit (if you can't because you've been working on it too long, I will go through it, though I am not as thorough as some). I noticed small things, like Weekly World News and New Art Examiner weren't italicized, and insinuated that Washington was himself gay, quotation punctuation. Stuff like that.
I think the lead needs to be expanded to reflect all the material in the article.
I added a paragraph from the various sides of the conflict. I get the feeling that any more will result in a can of worms about what to include and what not to include. —Rob(talk)18:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try some quote boxes since it's not easy to find images for this article.
I put in some quote boxes. A few of them seem to be particularly over-the-top, but I do feel there is some weight necessary on the the raw nerve this touched in the black community. —Rob(talk)15:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Join some of the short 2-sentence paragraphs, otherwise it reads like a timeline.
The phrase better part of four years to wind through the legal system is a little POV.
I actually removed this phrase, because it was unclear and the dates are given later on anyways.
Is there no critique on the artwork beside the political controversy? (Because it kinda sucks.)
Sadly, I don't think so. The piece didn't get to be judged by the judges at the exhibition, because it was taken down first. Anything and everything thereafter was mostly about the controversy. I did add the students' characteriziations of the painting; that's sort of a critique! —Rob(talk)19:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As a law- rather than art-minded reader, I find it strange that an entire appellate case is nested within this article. Posner and Easterbrook are probably among the most important American jurists, and one would think that this case should have an article of its own, discussing the issues raised in the case in a legal context that expands beyond this painting. I would recommend that this be turned into a WP:SS section so that the legal case can be expanded further, and from a perspective that is not specific to this painting. Mangostar (talk) 15:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a bad idea, and I think I'll take up making that subsection more summary style. The only argument against creating a Nelson v. Streeter article is that Posner described the case as straightforward, and that he mentioned that he was troubled that it took so long to rule on the case. If, however, you're making the argument that any of Posner's opinions are notable, then the point is moot. —Rob(talk)16:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to distill the basic arguments of the opinion into two paragraphs, not quoting Posner at all. This should satisfy WP:SS. —Rob(talk)16:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a derivative of a Nelson quote, but he also referred to Washington being made an icon. So how about "iconization"? I'd use "idolization" if I didn't think it was too strong. I'll take any other suggestions as to the appropriate opposite of "iconoclasm". —Rob(talk)18:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with this suggestion. "Deification" is a fine word, it has 319k hits with google. Divinization is one I hadn't heard of, and it has 99k hits. I don't see any reason to change it. "Iconization" maybe, but it seems pretty obscure. Madeleine✉✍01:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I started reading for prose issues but quickly ran into several troubling issues regarding sourcing, POV, and wording. I found these within two minutes of reviewing the article, so there may be more. They need to be resolved before I can continue reviewing.
I was intrigued by the statement in the lead that "angry African-American aldermen" confiscated the painting so I skipped down to the Confiscation heading to find out if your source covered all the involved aldermen being African-American. The first source I ran into was to the Becker essay. The second is the text of the court opinion. I don't know which one is supposed to be the source for the "angry African-American aldermen" statement but I don't see where either source states even that Henry and Jones are African-American. Also, I'd hardly call the "National Coalition Against Censorship" a neutral organization, so you need to source this court opinion to a different, preferably official site. Since they didn't post a scanned document, we can't count on its authenticity.
Yes, I remember having to do research to figure out which Aldermen Henry and Jones the federal lawsuit talked about. Might take some digging. —Rob(talk)19:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Surprisingly, Hanania_19880514 also uses the phrase "angry African-American aldermen". Completely unintentional. This ref would satisfy the citation requirement for that phrase; I was afraid I'd have to cite individual aldermanic profiles from 1988. Finding free case law? That might be harder. —Rob(talk)15:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody likes me. Is Project Posner (from site: "The purpose of this site is to make freely and easily available to the public Richard Posner's largest and greatest body of work — his judicial opinions.") sufficiently neutral? —Rob(talk)19:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now to Becker. First, it's unavailable for viewing through Google books so the link you provide doesn't work. Second, it's a collection of essays which means it is inherently POV. You can use the essay to explicitly discuss Becker's opinions, but not to source facts of the incident.
I tried the link again and it worked. Pointless, though, because there's a better source for the 2 times this source is used regarding damage to the painting (a newspaper) and the need for the other source is starting to look unnecessary (controversial material in the student competition). —Rob(talk)19:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I removed all Becker references. Hanania_19880514 provides this info. (I'm also fading my original comments so it's easier to read. If this is a Bad Idea, feel free to undo.) —Rob(talk)15:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One other point - your narrative of the confiscation is very, very close to the text of the court opinion. While technically not plagiarism because the court opinion is not copyrighted, you need to rewrite in your own words. --Laser brain(talk)19:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I took my best shot at it. Used the thesaurus, reordered some phrases. Part of the problem is the source and this article both write that section as if it was a timeline, which to me makes the most sense. If this isn't the right approach, let me know. —Rob(talk)15:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComment Well written, but needs a bit more. all objections addressed. — GRuban 16:19, 22 May 2008 — continues after insertion below
Describe the painting in the lead, at least one sentence, otherwise we're missing something between "it was painted in response to HWs death" and "angry aldermen arrived", we need to at least imply what made them angry.
Wnt's link needs research; if Nelson is putting other paintings on the Web, we absolutely need to link to his page. "What ever happened to Nelson?" is crying out for answer.
I'm 99.9% sure it's the same David K. Nelson, based on sources, website registration, and image content (nonstandard advertising drawings, to say the least!). I don't have something that says "David K. Nelson's website is X". But I think we can add that to External Links. —Rob(talk)17:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Commentaries and reports of the painting identify the object Washington is holding as a pencil." - way too long; write "Washington is holding a pencil", and you don't need to cite it, it's obvious and undisputed.
Leftover sentence from an early dispute; rewrote (maybe not shortened, per se, but it's more direct and to the point now.) —Rob(talk)18:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the "Dread Scott" connection is weak, unless you can find a source connecting the two incidents more than a single sentence at the end of an article.
Also thought about it. I ended up removing the "Aftermath" section and merging the paragraph regarding Nelson into the Settlement section. There are hints of a policy change in the SAIC after Dread Scott, but the connection is weak - the Dread Scott incident is perceived to have made a bigger impact on the SAIC than Mirth & Girth, from the few things I have read about Dread Scott. That's my next project, though. —Rob(talk)18:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For more details on antisemitism in the African-American community, see Antisemitism in the United States#African-american attitudes. - aiee! This is too much; it's in the position of a "for more on the subject of this section" link, and it's only tangential. Nelson isn't Jewish, and the only claim that he was is cited to an unnamed Black alderman in a single sentence of an article. Unless you can find more like that, we may as well link to Anti-Masonism in the United States and find a claim somewhere that Nelson was a Mason... :-).
I agree, but I was torn on this for a while. There's obviously an undercurrent of antisemitism in segments of the black community (related mostly to Farrakhan or other black nationalist movements), and I didn't know how I should deal with that in the article. In the end, I think examples of antisemitism should be an article, but not this particular article. —Rob(talk)17:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do any of the aldermen have individual articles? Do they deserve any that need stubbing out at least?
No. They should, but I can't so much as even find a list of former City Council aldermen online. I wouldn't mind stubbing out articles, but I only have newspaper information from 1985 at the earliest accessible to me (read: long process). —Rob(talk)17:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does Illinois Alliance of Black Student Organizations have or need an article? How about Marshall Field? John Sefick? Clearly Chicago's crippling Blizzard of 1977 must have an article somewhere...
Hmm. IABSO doesn't seem to exist anymore - no news articles written about them after 1988 (3 total, one refers to 1987 in 2007). Marshall Field would be redlinked; I don't know if it's MF IV or MF V (or even MF VI), and neither have an article. John Sefick isn't notable per newspaper searches - he would be known primarily for the Bilandic statue and the precedent the lawsuit established. And surprisingly, the Blizzard of 19779 does not have an existing article. :-D That needs to be stubbed out... —Rob(talk)17:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I think I've addressed all your points, except the Blizzard of 1979 one... it'll be a redlink 'til tonight, at least. I was getting worried, wondering where all the FAC reviewers had gone! —Rob(talk)19:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The prose is ... OK. The first "due to" should be "from". I wish the referencing wasn't quite as skewed towards a few local newspapers. I'm not opposing. TONY(talk)14:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Comments - Only question is about emporis.com, and it's reliablity. Otherwise sources look good. Being still on the road, I didn't check sources links. Ealdgyth - Talk03:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image in the infobox looks weird as a thumbnail. Also, is there a more recent (like, this century) photo?
Do you have a preference of the images in the article for the main image. The best image in my opinion are the Trump images, but it would be inappropriate to choose any of them because in truth it will be associated with Rush Street like The Plaza Hotel is associated with Fifth Avenue or the Park Hyatt is associated with the Magnificent Mile. I the the best image might be Dr. Rush, but it is also old. The Gibson photo lighting is not so hot.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In refs, publisher is wlinked sometimes (eg. ref 21) but sometimes left un-linked (eg. ref 12)...be consistent. Other than that, refs look fine. Images are all OK too. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you missed my point. I am talking about the other images - they are pushing the text around and ruining the format, because there's too many of them. For example, WP:MOS says: "Do not place left-aligned images directly below second-level (===) headings, as this disconnects the heading from the text it precedes. Instead, either right-align the image, remove it, or move it to another relevant location." - but you have images obscuring section headings. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits)04:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The {{infobox road}} template isn't designed to take a photo, just a route marker/shield and a map. Until I created a SVG version of the wooden signage used by Keweenaw County, Brockway Mountain Drive had no graphic image above the roadway name in the infobox. All photos of the roadway are in the article, like most/all of the WP:USRD articles. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Way, way, way too many images crowding the text. Reconsider whether some of them are necessary. Does Dr. Rush, who has his own article, really need an image in here? Also, does the picture of the mayor on the sidewalk truly add any information about the street, other than the mayor sometimes enjoyed walking down this street? Also, many of the images are pictures of/inside the buildings along the street, not actually of the street. Very few of the images give an idea of what it would look like if you were to take a drive down Rush Street. Consider moving some of the images to a Commons gallery to reduce clutter. —Scott5114↗[EXACT CHANGE ONLY]00:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose While the images have been rearranged to be more tolerable and less cluttered, there are still too many, and more have been added with even less relevance. (A pizza?) There are still no photos that give a clear ground view of what Rush Street would look like to someone actually using the street, and there are no photos clearly showing how Rush Street is typically signed. So, with these deficiencies, I must oppose. —Scott5114↗[EXACT CHANGE ONLY]20:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral (upgrade from oppose). The images have at least been put into boxes that make the article less cluttered, which is better, but I would still prefer that only the 9-10 most expressive images be included in the article itself and the remainder be displayed in a linked Commons gallery (use the commons= param of infobox road to produce a box at the bottom of it, or use {{commons}} for an independent box). However, the present setup is at least tolerable. You do have a map now, though, and I'd prefer seeing the infobox's map= parameter put to good use displaying the map in its rightful place in the article. —Scott5114↗[EXACT CHANGE ONLY]08:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have thought about your neutral. It sounds like the following. You would like me to go from 30 images that help the reader to 10 images that help the reader. Previous to the boxing cluttered images was the complaint, but that is not the issue now. Also squeezing is not an issue. Thus, it sounds like you are requesting that I remove 20 images that cause no problems and help the reader as a matter of personal preference. Please reconsider WP:WIAFA. Keep in mind that {{multiple image}} is a new template so it will seem different from what you have seen before. I think in the future more images will be common in articles. You should analyze whether there are any remaining problems with the images given the new boxed format.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard it said somewhere that "we are not Encarta", perhaps implying that too many images may outweigh the text and make things seem too "breezy" and not "encyclopedic" (whatever those things mean). I think the MoS speaks to the number of images that make good sense, but as you say, that was written before these new templates... I won't oppose, I plan to eventually support whether this is changed or not but I absolutely see where others are coming from. And I'm the guy who tends to chafe against removing images. :) ++Lar: t/c17:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am unclear what eventually support means. Are there things I can do other than remove images that I feel help the reader to get you to support. Clearly, this could be failed any day that I continue not to make progress on building consensus to promote. Galleries in the text are not good, but this is sort of a sidebar technique that I think is stil encyclopedic. If it does not pass here. I hope to be able to try again with Trump International Hotel & Tower (Chicago). The ratio on that one is a little better.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The thing about having so many images is that they compete with the prose for the reader's attention. When you have a lesser number of images, the reader can easily look at the image and read the relevant paragraph. With such a large number of images, is the reader supposed to look at them first, then read the prose, or the other way around? Which images illustrate which paragraphs? Is the reader still supposed to consider the images to support the text, or is the text supporting the images? Splitting the reader's attention between text and images detracts from the helpfulness of otherwise illustrative images, as they don't know what to look at in what order—there's too much eye candy! And the worst thing you can do is make readers look at the text, look at the images, look at the text, look at the images—they're liable to lose their train of thought and their place in the article. There's absolutely nothing wrong with picking the most expressive images and putting the rest in a Commons gallery—look at how Kansas Turnpike does it, and follow that example. There, the reader can see the most important images and if he wants more, he can just click over to the Commons gallery and there's more images to give him a more in-depth understanding of the topic. Which is the way it should be, and why we have {{cleanup-gallery}} and other things discouraging masses of images in articles. —Scott5114↗[EXACT CHANGE ONLY]21:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You present a cogent argument, which has no doubt been used several times to explain why galleries are undesirable. The reader has to page down to the images and page back up to the text. However, when all the images are in the relevant section and likely on the screen at the same time as the text the dynamics are different. Whereas a standard gallery at the end of the article causes undue distraction as the reader attemtps to back and forth from the text to the gallery. These images are on the side in sections. I did not split the images for the first two sections into two separate side galleries, but the other two main sections have their own images. It is much more likely that each image is additive when it is in the same section as the text or on the screen at the same time. With the wide array in screen resolutions, it is impossible to make sure all of these images are on the screen at the same time as the text, but they are nearby and not the same sort of distraction as a gallery.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I concur in opposition. There are too many photos, some with a tenuous connection to the subject matter, that do not further the understanding of the subject matter. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All of the Rush Street Bridge photos in the template are good, but I'd select the best and feature one or two more prominently. Be careful though, or the visual focus of the article will be on the Bridge and not the Street.
Image:Benjamin Rush Painting by Peale 1783.jpg nice photo but really belongs more in an article about Dr. Rush. It's appropriate here, but much too large/prominent and detracts from the other photos about the street.
The Trump International Hotel and Tower photos: pick one. Put the rest in a Commons gallery.
Image:Wacker Drive aerials.jpg - I don't see why this included. It doesn't help me understand the paragraph to the right of it
That's just my first pass. I'd pare down the selection by half and ditch those templates. The thumbnails are too small as a result, break user thumbnail preferences and just make the layout cluttered, detracting from the prose instead of adding to it. I know it takes too long and the USRD Maps Task Force is inactive (and it doesn't do street maps normally), but you should use a map of Chicago with the location of Rush Street highlighted in the infobox. If you can get me a close-up photo of a Chicago Street sign, I'll offer to make a sign for the infobox as well. I don't know if a topographic map is an option, but I'd look into that to see if you could crop one and highlight the street. I've seen them used for some of the minor NY state routes and for them, they've worked well. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those templates are the future of WP. They enable us to slide dozenas of images in without worrying about whether staggered images are squeezing. As far as the images go, if I can get anything on Wed, I will and then we can swap out pare down, etc. The forecast is not looking so hot though. I will try to get a better image of the care dealer, The Clare, some signage , and see if I can get some sort of view of the what it looks like. The nightlife view will have to wait until the summer though.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral: I'm upgrading to neutral. The article still looks like a photo album compared to other articles. The photos recently swapped out provide a better illustration of the roadway, but there are still so many. Many of the photos would better serve the article and the content to be removed from the article and place into a gallery accessible by a link. {{infobox road}} will accommodate a commons category at the bottom of the infobox, as was done with M-35 (Michigan highway), another FAC currently posted. Yes, this object is a bit stylistic, but it is actionable and it does relate to the content of the article. Some photos illustrating a subject is a good thing, but too many just detracts. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose way too many images, some of which aren't applicable. Especially the one in the infobox, which shouldn't be there as that's not what {{Infobox road}} is designed for. --Rschen7754 (TC) 00:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment many pictures have been swapped out and new images have been added that directly relate to the text. Almost every image relates directly to a point of interest in the text. Galleries have alway been discouraged and were at one point against policy. The point of images is to illustrate the text. Previously limtations have been how many images could be added without squeezing the text. Now new templates facilitate many more images.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since well over half the readers view at either 1280 or 1024 wide, I have looked at the article at both widths and did not really agree. However, I guess I need clarification because there are no real content complaints, this is such an odd position. Is your complaint that 1.)You have never seen any FAs with this many images, 2.)You never seen FAs using {{multiple image}}, 3.)You feel that there are places in the text where there is squeezing, 4.) You see particular images that are not helpful to the reader.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And sometimes I look stuff up on my iPhone. Safari for iPhone/iPod touch renders the reflist as one column and only uses a resolution of 320x480 at 160 ppi. Wikipedia should be formatted as best as possible for all screen resolutions, which is a tricky task. Some people are still at 640x480 resolution. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you are objecting because the formatting is not palatable for an iPod that is ridiculous. I just added some text in places where the images might haave overwhelmed the text. You did not reply to my prior query. People with 640x480 are less than a fraction of a percent of current viewers although handheld devices may get there someday. Do you see images that are not a service to the reader? Is there squeezing at the most common resolutions (1280 or 1024)? If so point to where. If you are objecting for one of the first two reasons in my prior post please say so.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only commenting that there is a wide range of resolutions in use. Please direct me to a survey of the resolutions in use by readers of Wikipedia. I don't believe there is such a survey. My laptop screen is 1440x900, but I don't have Safari set to use the full screen. In fact my web browser only uses around two-thirds of the screen width. That means I'm likely using a non-standard size window. Others likely do the same, but without any data on user preferences, we have to attempt to format our articles to the widest possible range of sizes. About the only metric that could be used reliably is the printed page, but would we standardize on the US Letter or the European A4? Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Although the template has not been properly parameterized to accomodate images it is standard policy for artilces to have a main image prominently positioned toward the upper right of the article. MOS states: "The following general guidelines should be followed in the absence of a compelling reason to do otherwise. Start an article with a right-aligned lead image." You have given no compelling reason other than that is not the way we have our template parameterized. WikiProject Streets does not have its own infobox so I used WikiProject Road's infobox. There is no crime in this. Objections should be related to WP:WIAFA and should be actionable. An objection based on a stylistic preference against MOS is not really a valid one.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What's been done in the past is making a street sign for the road and then using that. However, you're missing the point - there's too many darn images in the article, infobox or not. That is definitely actionable. --Rschen7754 (TC) 03:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given the apparent manipulation (horizontal axis flip), I would suggest uploading and utilizing a copy from the former (it provides date information, which is what we're really after). ЭLСОВВОLДtalk00:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To argue semantics, we should never really be assuming PD. Images are generally PD in the U.S. if published before 1.1.1923 or, if unpublished, the author has been dead 70 years. Unpublished works with an unknown date of death are 120 years from creation. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk00:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think a map would be very helpful. The verbal description of where the street goes is tortuous without a map to orient one. The street is short enough that a map won't have to be tiny scale. There are open source ways to create maps... consider Image:Ada Covered Bridge TIGER map.gif for example which is a capture of some TIGER screens, pasted together, or Image:Croton Dam photo locator map cropped.svg (also made from TIGER data but converted to the preferred svg format using inkscape).
Cool. (the image in question is Image:Rush Street via tiger.census.gov.gif) I fixed up the licensing and categories (over on Commons)... if it's wrong, please correct me, but the bots we have on Commons are quite efficient at tagging stuff where no dropdown was selected and no templates added. :) ++Lar: t/c15:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the tail end of the article kind of peters out... I don't know that there is a good "conclusion" to an article about a street but I don't quite think that the bridge section should be the last section. It seems to end abruptly. I'm not sure exactly what to suggest there, though.
In all honesty, I thought the Bridge was my big finish. I could swap the Bridge and the Commerce section, but the commerce is something that I think peters out. Since that makes more sense chronologically, I will try that.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do other road articles that have made FA do? That's something to consider. Chronological is always a good way to organise things, to be sure. But the commerce section now seems a bit rambly too, so maybe switch them and THEN come up with a finish ?? Personally, my perception of Rush Street is colored by the many bars and clubs on or near it (PJ Clarks, Koko Taylors, etc) that I've enjoyed people watching in. But that's not much to hang an article on. :) ++Lar: t/c16:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. I think maybe you're taking this personally, and I apologise for that. I went off and looked at a few other articles that are FA. Many of them are completely in chrono and they end with "and now X is used for Y" or something else. Not a big finish (I'm using the term because you used it first...). Others end with an analysis of significance. So no, a big finish isn't needed. I'm not a FA regular. I'm just a dilettante at this, here because you asked me to stop by. I'd just go with chronological ordering. If you can find something about the cultural significance today, Maybe add it. or maybe just not worry about it at all. I dunno. But an article does need SOMETHING to let the reader know they reached the end. It shouldn't stop like there was more to say but the authors haven't gotten to it yet. ++Lar: t/c18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't perceive your complaints as personal discredits towards me. I am just not sure what to do. I just added some more stuff. I don't think any of it belongs at the end, but it makes the article longer and improves the text/photo ratio.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I love pictures but I do see what some are saying that maybe there are too many. That's just a comment, not an actionable item.
There is no single picture you can point to and say "this helps the reader in no possible way", I can find a reason to include each and every one if I try. And yet, there are, taken as a gestalt, too many, in my view. That's an aesthetic judgement on my part. Hence I'm not claiming I'd oppose over it. Does that help at all? ++Lar: t/c16:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just commented above to another neutral respondent. Basically I was troubled by a request to go from 30 images that help the reader to 10 images that help the reader. Previous to the boxing cluttered images was the complaint, but that is not the issue now. Also squeezing is not an issue. Thus, it sounds like you are requesting that I remove 20 images that cause no problems and help the reader as a matter of personal preference. Please reconsider WP:WIAFA. Keep in mind that {{multiple image}} is a new template so it will seem different from what you have seen before. I think in the future more images will be common in articles. You should analyze whether there are any remaining problems with the images given the new boxed format.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just think there are too many images. It's not the norm here to have that many pictures. Maybe it will be eventually, and this article, when it passes FA, will help push the MoS and general policy in that direction. Or maybe not, I have no idea. I'm not opposing over anything after all, just sharing my aesthetic perception. Again, I am not a regular here. Do what you like with my views, I make no claim they are worth anything, but to me, personally, it seems too busy, and I love images. Sometimes the way to make something better is to edit it, that is, make it smaller. ++Lar: t/c18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—Problems in the writing. Needs a fresh person on the copy-editing. Weed out inappropriate statements and expressions. Vagueness and repetition. Throughout, not just these random examples, please.
"richest neighborhoods"—culturally? or do you mean "wealthiest"? (and I see "rich" again in the lead). "and has businesses that correspond to the tastes of its residents." Is that POV, second-guessing the tastes of residents in an article lead? Inappropriate, since unverifiable at the least. Who knows where the residents go to dine?
Rich people demand expensive things like world-class spas, five-star hotels, top-rated restaurants, and expensive cars. I have changed taste to demand. Demand for expensive things can only be from people who can afford them. I never said that the same rich people who live in the neighborhood actually buy from these establishments. It may be that other wealthy people come to buy from the neighborhood famous for having wealthy residents. However, saying that the businesses correspond to the wealth of the residents is not POV.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The street, which was named after Declaration of Independence signator Benjamin Rush,[1] is currently known for its nightlife, especially at the northern end, which features entertainment that attracts people from near and far." Winding snake of a sentence. The last four words are inappropriate in an encyclopedic register.
"The various Rush Street Bridges have a rich history both in terms of facilitating vehicular land traffic and in terms of being a commercial port location." I hate "various". "in terms of" twice, both constructions clumsy.
The page is formatted for viewers with 1280 or 1024 width screen resolutions (which are over half of general internet users) and wider. The images are less than 400px wide in total. What resolution are you viewing with that you see squeezing with less than 400px. Of course, if you don't use your whole screen it might squeeze. Do you use your whole screen?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: general areas of concern are noted below. (Note on my absence this weekend: I believe issues substantial enough to not be remediable before I return. I've opposed, however, so, out of fairness and to reassure TonyTheTiger, I will make time to check back in and follow up.)
Prose: WP:WEASEL including "some of the finest restaurants and bars", "some of the most elite Chicago socialites", "some still refer"; WP:PEACOCK including "quality dining experiences", "important residences", "important Chicago neighborhoods" (important to whom?); grammar (e.g. "on October 8, 1871 when") and number agreement ("herd of cattle ... were"; herd is a collective noun and, in this context, singular in AmEng). Generally awkward prose such as "At the Wabash crossing...a park exists"and aforementioned examples by Tony. As I'm pressed for time, I haven't listed all prose issues; the prose is such, however, that a third party copy edit seems quite warranted.
WP:SS/criterion 1A: "Geography" section: why is description of all of the cross streets necessary? As a reader, my eyes glaze over. "Commerce and education": why are all of the addresses needed? It comes across a bit too much like a Chicago guide book and, again, as a reader, it's information overload that impairs the flow and readability of the article.
Second of all what does WP:SS have to do with an article this short. Although a good article could and should be written about the Rush Street Bridge, you do not seem to be making an SS point about that here. In addition, what is here would be a good summary of a proper and full article about the Bridge.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Prose utilized in other articles is not germane to this FAC. As articulated above, this article contains superfluous information/detail which negatively impacts flow and other aspects of readability. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk12:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Images: Image:Wacker Drive aerials.jpg: source site confirms it was created/published in 1926. Why, then, is the license claiming publication before 1923? The restrictions page says the library is "unaware of any copyright" (being unaware does not mean it doesn't exist) and explicitly says use of the image should be done under fair use. Where is the basis for the PD claim? Concern has be raised about number the images. The current formating is superior to the article's initial state, but I still believe it goes too far. If policies/guidelines are needed to be actionable, I think reasonable arguments could be made on WP:WIAFA: "professional standards of writing and presentation" and the spirit of WP:SS. The number of images is simply superflous; the rationale of providing "pictorial detail" isn't untrue (and is great marketing!), but is simply unnecessary and, even counterproductive to an encyclopedia article tasked with a reasonable summary of the topic. Why are so many images necessary or even helpful in understanding the topic? Images should supplement an article, not dominate it. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk16:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel I have done everything there is to do about this subject. The article is a GA and has had a peer review. It is an episode that is important in the history of The Simpsons. Maitch (talk) 20:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
A couple of statements that read like opinion to me are unsourced.
Production section, sixth paragraph, last sentence, last phrase in the sentence "...so this was ignored by the producers." is unsourced
Same section, seventh paragraph, last sentence "It was intended for this to be the first couch gag..." is unsourced.
Cultural references sectioin, second paragraph, "The episode title is taken from the title of a ..." is unsourced.
Current ref 10, "End credits." Do you mean the end credits of the show? Can we format this a bit better?
What are the parameters for cite episode? Does it have a section parameter? If not, try using "(Episode title): End Credits" as the title of the ref? Think that'll work okay? Ealdgyth - Talk22:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (ec)
"Also, in the scene the cellar looks very much like the cellar of Norman Bates in the movie Psycho." — needs a citation, otherwise it's original research.
"According to Al Jean people thought this episode to be..." — Who exactly are these "people"?
"The episode title is taken from the title of a song from Rodgers and Hammerstein's "South Pacific" and is also the name of a 1978 Blue Öyster Cult album." — Does the album have anything to do with this, or is South Pacific (note the italics, and not quotes) what is truly important? A citation would probably clear it up.
The article needs a copyedit. I see a few things throughout, but the worst one is probably "The tension in the room had it almost cleared."—I can't tell what that's supposed to mean. Pagrashtak21:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
It would be nice to see an expansion to the lead, like the one on The Principal and The Pauper. Although either everything must be referenced in the lead or nothing, it would be nice to see some references there, to make it more professional.
Ref #2 needs to include an OCLC alongsid the ISBN, see Special:Booksources to find this.
The link text on reference nine doesn't match the title of the webpage.
It would be nice to see the production section split up in to different sections and sub-sections, as currently, its very cluttered and difficult to read
The plot needs shortening and needs a rewrite, as its tone isn't very encyclopedic at the minute.
Oppose, concur with Qst. The prose is just so-so (ex. "Although it aired as the season finale, it was the first episode of the series to be produced, but was aired last due to significant animation problems." Practically had labor pains pushing that out, yet it is really the only substantive sentence in the whole lead) and it doesn't seem to approach comprehensiveness. Recommend withdrawing and working with experienced FA writers and a copyeditor. --Laser brain(talk)15:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-nomination. This was a previous featured article, yet it was removed in a Featured Article Review. I have been working very hard on the article to bring it back to the quality of a featured article. — scetoaux(T|C)01:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Current ref 29 "Memorandum of understanding among headquarters..." is lacking a publisher
I understand your first two concerns, and will adress them when I am on a proper interface (it would be extremely difficult to make changes while on an iPod Touch). However, to perhaps explain the high volume of internal references: much of the content in the article deals with regulatory information, the only true source of which are the regulations themselves. That accounts for about half of the internal links. The others hold information that was difficult or impossible to find in reliable third-party references, but are of the nature that the first party references are not skewed by self-promotion interests. Everything that wasn't verifiable has been removed. I did feel, however, that much of this information adds to the article significantly, and per IAR I believe that justifies use of first party references in the quantity presented in the article. — scetoaux(T|C)04:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - Looking at this at a glance, I have noticed some layout/organization issues and short paragraphs. I also see plenty of lists which should be converted to prose. None of the sections seem to be 'even', for example the History section is one paragraph, whereas the others are much much longer. 'Ground Vehicles' sub-section is two sentences long, but the other sub-sections under 'Equipment' are a couple paragraphs each. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits)12:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now - Very promising but the copy fails 1(a). It needs a vigorous prune by an uninvolved editor: you've gotten a little too close to the text and it pulling into shape by someone with critical distance. Here are some examples taken from the lead:
Civil Air Patrol's membership consists of cadets ranging from 12 to 21 years of age, and senior members 18 years of age and up. "The Civil Air Patrol has cadet members, aged 12 to 21, and senior members, from 18 years of age"?
The Civil Air Patrol is organized along a military styled hierarchy. Does this mean the CAP "has a military-type hierarchy"?
National Headquarters has command over the entire organization, while further subdivisions allow for more localized execution of command. Convoluted?
Below National Headquarters, there are eight geographic regions that encompass a total of 52 wings (one for each state, in addition to the Washington, D.C. area and the territory of Puerto Rico). "It is organized as 52 wings – one for each state, and one for Washington DC, and Puerto Rico – grouped into eight regions"?
Under the command of each of the wings, squadrons provide the most localized and basic functional unit of CAP. "Each wing is made up of squadrons, the basic operational unit"?
Well, having that vigorous prune is not something I can do myself, since as you said it has to be done by an uninvolved editor. So this FAC is going to fail, in essence, because there's no way for me to get an uninvolved editor to put this amount of work in without canvassing, and evidently nobody that contributes to FAC is willing to help with the articles that they oppose. — scetoaux(T|C)19:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's not correct, I frequently copy-edit articles I oppose. However, it's very time-consuming (a recent one was two complete days work). My hands are full at the moment (I'm doing major copy-edits on two recent failed-FACs, time-estimate at least 30 hours each) and have numerous other commitments, not least of which is trying to pitch in regularly at FAC and to provide an in-depth review of every Milhist A-Class candidate article. I have a real life too. Therefore, I prioritize.
The advice about an uninvolved editor was intended to spare pain rather than place an insurmountable barrier in your path to FA. It's much easier and quicker for someone new to the article to see its shortcomings. You can try to copyedit it yourself but in practice this turns out to be a copy-edit by proxy - ie you change the example bits, reviewers find more, and so it goes on - and it's not only disheartening for you but very time-consuming for us.
The easiest way to get your article copy-edit is to look at the edit history of related featured articles and leave a note on the user pages of editors who have copy-edited them. In my experience, most editors contacted this way are glad to help.
Comment - I appreciate your efforts in getting this copyedited - and it is much improved - but it will need considerable work for me to support.--ROGER DAVIEStalk05:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, I concur with Roger Davies that the text is quite rough. At the minimum, a rigorous copyedit is required from an uninvolved editor to smooth out such turns of phrase as "CAP also performs non-auxiliary missions for various governmental and private agencies, such as local law enforcement and the American Red Cross." and "Many of these uniforms are based upon the Air Force Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) and Service Dress Uniform, while other uniforms exist solely for the Civil Air Patrol." Both examples are just from the lead. Additionally, the penchant for bold paragraph introductions has got to go. If the prose smoothly and logically describes the CAP, those introductions should not be necessary. --Laser brain(talk)15:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, right now the copyediting is being done by User:Happy-melon. He's basically going through the article and making the necessary changes. He's also helped with some citation concerns, which is so far going as a sort of back-forth process: he flags the article with for me to come in and fix. — scetoaux(T|C)21:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As requested by Ealdgyth, I've been over the article and given it a rough copyedit. It's certainly far from perfect, but I hope it's an improvement.
Some comments I would make:
The "History" section, although correctly in summary style, is a little short and in particular cuts of abruptly in 1945. It would be nice to see perhaps one or two more paragraphs, covering more recent activity.
The first "Cadet program" heading, with a "see also" link to further down the page, is awkward. Either the entire Cadet Program should be spun out into a separate article (which I think there is enough material to be a serious possibility), in which case an appropriate summary here is needed, or there needs to be some clever re-organisation to avoid this two-line 'teaser' for the over-long section below.
The "Ground vehicles" section is laughably short. Either it should be expanded, or the "Equipment" section should not be subdivided
The "Organisation" section is over-long and contains some very tangential information. It should be shortened; and the inclusion of things like the National Commander succession crisis re-evaluated.
A general check-through for little things (like consistency in the capitalisation of "Senior Member", and the use of "The Civil Air Patrol" is necessary. Acronyms are also often over-used: the acronym or abbreviation should only be stated after the first instance of a term if the acronym is subsequently used alone in the text.
In general, this looks like a promising article, but I wouldn't call its organisation or presentation "brilliant" at the current time. Happy‑melon22:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Um ... why is this nomination still here if you've "given it a rough copyedit. It's certainly far from perfect, but I hope it's an improvement"? That's pre-nomination stuff. Very pre. Please withdraw it, work on it, and resubmit. I see little glitches all over the place. TONY(talk)10:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Paragraphing and in some places the sectioning is a little choppy. Grade/insignia box jammed up against main text on my browser.
After a reasonable opening, the prose has problems. I picked up numerous bad patches, such as:
"Progression in the training program is required for promotion of those senior members who were not promoted based on a prior military rank, or those with certain professional appointments (such as legal or medical)."—eeuuuw. "the" is missing; ungainly repetition. Winding.
"skills they have from their private lives"—um ... "skills they have acquired in their private lives"?
"Civil Air Patrol's cadet program is a traditional military-style cadet program."—Audit the whole thing for such repetitions. Tedious to read.
I'm nominating this article for featured article status because I feel it is rather excellent and comprehensive. It is well-referenced and gives all that a featured article needs. An example of excellent work by Black Tusk. Meldshal42Hit meWhat I've Done19:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree per Meldshal42. Garibaldi is also one of the most notable mountains in southern British Columbia, as well as one of Canada's best known volcanoes. Black Tusk22:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments A large number of the refs are lacking a publisher listed. Also, dividing the refs into two columns would look a bit better. I just don't have time to check sources that are lacking listed publishers. Ealdgyth - Talk03:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can't do that :-) I did it once myself, before I knew, so you've got company. I've removed the GA listing; you have to go through the process, and an independent editor needs to pass it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose, as due diligence has not been done to make sure this article conforms to FA criteria before posting here as required by the instructions. Please see Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. At the basic level:
Sources are not properly cited; as Ealdgyth points out, many of them lack the required publisher and other information. Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources.
Questionable sources. What makes Canadian Mountain Encyclopedia a reliable source? It appears to be made up of user-submitted information with no visible fact-checking or editorial process. I could not find any print sources that refer to Canadian Mountain Encyclopedia as a reliable source of information. --Laser brain(talk)14:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: You should ask User:Skookum1 about the Canadian Mountain Encyclopedia. If the Encyclopedia is not a reliable source I'm pretty sure there's other reliable sources. Please see the first few sources in the article and tell me if that's appropiate or not (i.e. properly cited). Black Tusk15:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looking better on the citation formatting. You might consider using the {{cite web}} template to get the required elements and formatting. As for the source, if you have proof that it is reliable, please post it here. I will not be going around tracking down that information. Most of this work needs to be done before posting an FAC; I suggest withdrawing this nomination until you can get everything sorted out. --Laser brain(talk)16:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I used with the first few sources. I mentioned User:Skookum1 because he was a volunteer for the Canadian Mountain Encyclopedia and so he probably knows more about the website. I always found Bivouac accurate for information. Black Tusk16:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Bivouac/CME is reliable for summit data, latlong, range information, prominence hierarchies/zones and pass elevations, though some of these materials are indeed available only to subscribers (which were not when I was a volunteer). First ascents and publications are also reliable, although with historical/explanatory content/text - in the article bodies, I don't mean the trip reports and photo essays, which as members-only can't be cited anyway - but the geographic data did have its parameters. Various digital map sources were used, USGS for the US portions of data, TRIM/BC Basemap as the standard in BC, and I cant' remember which digital atlas for the Yukon and elsewhere (I didn't work so much with those areas). Bivouac's own citations, if they're there, are hidden within the site. Close to all official names of summits in BC are recorded - I know because I "mined" BC Basemap, though it's not as comprehensive as it turns out as BCGNIS. So it depends on what is being cited; if it's a cite in reference to elevation, latlong, prominence differentials/rankings within its area, and likely also the geology if any, plus the climbing history; yes, it's all valid and drawn from known sources. It would help if the site's owner would place citation notices somewhere in the public area of the site; if my word can't be taken for granted, well, all I can say is I gave thousands of hours over three years, created or checked tens of thousands of mountain entries, hundreds of passes and lakes and various other features. I know what sources were used; I know as a Wiki member I'm not citable, though, and I doubt I'm listed in any credits within bivouac/ perhaps so but I'm no longer a member.Skookum1 (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A major problem with this is Bivouac is the only major site that has mountain information, such as heights, coordinates, range, etc. and I know it's popular (e.g. see some of the Canadian mountain articles). I haven't seen any other site with such infomation. Black Tusk23:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's also peaklist.org and peakbagger,com, both prominence-oriented sites; peakbagger is pretty thorough but doesn't contain minor summits, or any non-topographic data/info. And for Canadian summits their sources ar less consistent than Bivouac. I'm on self-imposed not-speaking-to terms with the owner of Bivoauc (Robin Tivy) but if someone write him and asked for a precis of hits site's sources to b e placed on a public page, so it can be cited, I'm sure he'd comply gladly (when he gets around to it). Bivouac was intended to be4 encylopedia but systems-load issues trumped that and various sacrifices were made, long story; it's the lcosst thing to a compehrensive mountain encylopedia onlien right now; until Wiki ge3ts done that is; Bivouac's biggest problem was the lack of conensual input/editing as is doen here; alienation of volunteers, ditching of valid data because of sysstem-load problems, spurious on-the-fly decisions by the site owner as to naming unnamed summits, how to organize zones, whether or not mountain range designations were relevant and more; it's a pity that such a huge collective effort is the province of one man's human foibles and vanities, but .....it's what it is..;.Skookum1 (talk) 00:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know peakbagger.com and looked to see if Garibaldi is mentioned but it isn't. I never herd of peaklist.org. I asked Roblin Tivy earlier today about the Garibaldi area and if he has any sources, but has not replied yet. Black Tusk02:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Not that it necessarily matters for FA status, I'd like to see a close-up area map so the many perihperal locations/summits around Garibaldi can be demonstrated better; partly because this is a popular hiking/viewing area, and the vicinity's role in the foundation of hte provincial park system is also worth mentioning; I can see other areas this article could grow content-wise, but in terms of FA parameters I imagine it doesn't matter; it's the thoroughness and design/format of what's there now that counts. Anyway a map detailing Brohm Ridge, Diamond Head, Atwell, the Elfin Lakes, the Table, the Barrier and maybe the old Garibaldi townsite would probably be a good thing in the long run.Skookum1 (talk) 02:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I uploaded a topographic map of the Garibaldi area as Image:Maps - Mamaquam Lake & Garibaldi Neve Topo.jpg which shows The Table, Atwell Peak, Dalton Dome, Opal Cone, The Sharkfin, etc. But I didn't include the map because I don't think there's enough room for it right now, unless it could go where the see also and references are (I was going to save it for the "Glaciers and icefields" section if it became larger). Black Tusk02:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.bivouac.com/default.asp I've read the above statement about this, but I'm still not very convinced. The pages don't give their sources, and I'm not sure who the company behind them is. To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated.
Current ref 1 (Mount Garibaldi Bivouac.com The Cnaadian Mountain Encyclopedia) gives a last access date of 11 November 2008, which date hasn't arrived yet.
Current ref 7 "An Assessment of Natural Hazards..." is actually a book, and should use the cite book template or something similar.
Same for current ref 11 "Excerpt from Chapter 1..."
Current ref 13 "Squamish Nationa Language Department..." has a last access date like a website, but no link, is it missing?
Current ref 12 "KWA KWAYEXWELH..." has the title in all caps (which is a no-no) as well as the link goes to the wrong page, I believe. Currently it's going to http://www.harbourpublishing.com/excerpt/AroundtheSound/103 which is the link for the previous ref.
http://www.bctravel.com/squamish/index.html Current ref 16 "Welcome to Squamish..." is to a travel website. Surely there are better sources for the information "British Explorer Captain George Vancouver reached Howe Sound in June 1792 and became the first European to see the mountain. During this time George Vancouver met and traded with the local natives in the area."?
Current ref 19 "Wild Snow: A Historical Guide..." is a book, not a website. Please format the references as such.
Current ref 36 "Living with Volcanic Risk.." is lacking a publisher.
Current ref 39 "Preliminary petrography and chemistry of the..." is a journal article, or a conference paper. Would be better formatted using cite journal. Also it's lacking a publisher as it stands.
Comment: The infomation on the websites you listed above is correct; you can find more reliable references elsewhere on the net and they mention the same thing, same goes for Bivouac. I also know because I know lots about the subject, so I wouldn't source false infomation.
The infomation about Silverthrone on http://www.skimountaineer.com/ is true because scientific study has been very limited due to its extremely remote location. The infomation on that website is similar to http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/volcano.cfm?vnum=1200-16- but it's worded better; if the volcanic complex is dissected most of the evidence would most likely be removed as mentioned in the article. You could also find out using maps, which I already have.
I removed "KWA KWAYEXWELH..." because I couldn't find the source (and the title was in all caps).
The infomation on http://www.garibaldipark.com/ is very similar to some of the infomation in one of the books I cited. I don't understand your quote about George Vancouver and the natives; explain. Natives arrived in North America before Europeans did if that explains your question.
The quote about George Vancouver is sourced to the site http://www.bctravel.com/squamish/index.html (or was this morning) which is a travel tourism site. What i'm querying is that using a tourism site to source a historical statement is odd, to say the least. Wouldn't it be better to source a bit of historical context to say a history book/website? Ealdgyth - Talk21:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As for the other sites, you haven't explained what makes these particular sites reliable sources. The information may be correct, but that doesn't mean the site itself is considered a reliable source by WP:RS. Student essays, even from a competition, are not a reliable source. And that's what ThinkQuest is, a student comepetition. To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Ealdgyth - Talk21:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment- The articles on Bivouac are for the most part reliable, I haven't came across a single article while reviewing the references on this page. I really don't see what the problem is. If you say the Canadian Mountain Encyclopedia isn't reliable because anyone can edit it, that's like saying that Wikipedia heself isn't a reliable source. Now that's starting to sound like my librarian! Meldshal42Hit meWhat I've Done00:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment No, Bivouac.com is NOT editable by anyone; only key volunteers have edit access and changes to summit/location ata are stringently watched over; there are few vanadal in a members-only site obviously. the CME/Bivouac is the closest thing there is to any authoritative, comprehensive source taking in all of what it takes in. I'll look over the entry/non-member visible pages later and see if maybe there is an existng citation page; climbing history is usually from Fairley by the way or from "The Mountaineers' in Seattle, if you know how Fairley is. As for the rest of things like range classifications and definitions of various geographic entities, I used S. Holland's Landforms of British Columbia, which I also use for Wikipedia. Most Wikipedia mountain articles in BC that were not already there were added by yorus truly; or mountain range articles I should say; not just cribbing for bivouac but also adding other materials when possible. Holland is online but won't have specifics on individual summits, fthough for the Garibaldi area there may be something on that particular local area.Skookum1 (talk) 01:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I should add t hat the CME is much more encyclopedic in authority than the highly-touted and much-0self-promoted Canadian Encyclopedia, which for all its citations and academic pretensions is full of major errors, particulary geographic ones.....Skookum1 (talk) 01:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just because Bivouac dosen't have/show references dosen't mean it's not reliable. It is accurate to have sources, but if you look around you will find some conflicting infomation with sources as well. To me a reliable source is something that's true and a non-reliable source is something that's not true. Black Tusk02:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I agree with Ealdgyth that for a good/featured article, we should stick to a strict interpretation of what a reliable source is---that is, stick to the Wikipedia definition, not personal opinion about the word "reliable". As Ealdgyth has pointed out, the key is having a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. While bivouac.com is, in my experience, a high-quality site, its processes are not transparent, its information is not cited, and I don't know of independent, reliable sources that verify its reputation. (It would be a good idea in general to find such info, if it's out there, since it would be nice to be able to use bivouac.com without worry.) I often use bivouac as an external link, and sometimes as a reference, but if I wanted to shape up an article to GA/FA status, I would want to replace those cites with more solid ones.
It seems that most of the bivouac cites (I didn't look at all of them) were just about peak names and heights. Surely there are print sources for that info? I know that's less convenient than citing bivouac, but it is more in accordance with WP policy. The sticking point might be if there is info from bivouac that is really hard to find in print. -- Spireguy (talk) 16:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the way to go about this, though it's a lot of work ultimately, is to supplant all Bivouac latlong/elevation refs with BC Basemap for inside-BC and USGS for those in the US, which were as I noted what we used as teh standards; I could look in my old email files to find what soruces were used for parts of Canada outside BC; for boundary peaks such as those on the BC/AB border the Basemap (STRIM) elevatinos/locations were used; often there's discrepancies.Skookum1 (talk) 16:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but Bivouac is the only site I have seen elevations and infomation for certain mountains; try finding elevations for The Tent, Diamond Head, Brohm Ridge, The Sharkfin or The Gargoyles. The only summits I could find without using Bivouac is the main summit of Mount Garibaldi, Atwell Peak, Columnar Peak, Dalton Dome, and Glacier Pikes here, which is a reliable site (it includes references). And I couldn't find anything about the prominence. Black Tusk16:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand about Basemap; all the locations you've just mentioned are searchable there, which is how they were verified/checked for Bivouac. There's a way to parse basemap's site so that it will open at a particular location but I've never figured it out, bivouac's site-owner cracked it; he managed the same with Topozone, which we used for USGS but is no longer a freesite (now part of trails.com). Even without site-specific basemap links, Basemap is still ultimately the datasource for Diamond Head, the Gargoyles, Brohm Ridge et al - only ungazetted summits are not citable this way. Prominence calculations are the diffrential between the summit and its key pass; sometimes those passes are gazetted but many are not.Skookum1 (talk) 17:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't misunderstand about Basemap, I just don't know what it is. And I'm no expert on mapping. Maybe if you could give me the link to Basemap I could give it a try. Black Tusk17:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How do you find the peaks? Can you search with coordinates? I think the link to the more complicated version is broken BTW. Black Tusk19:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not a waste of time if a more authoritative reliable source is determined; since bivouac's sources are known (by me, who did them) it seems proper top say "well, just use the original cite that bivouac used).Skookum1 (talk) 19:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It would be more useful and faster if more users would help the article other than commenting about the references and other issues. Commenting won't get you nowhere. The more help the more likely this article will become featured; one user is not enough. Ealdgyth most likely knows something if the publishers are wrong etc. Black Tusk19:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I replaced some of the Bivouac links with the website here which appears to be more reliable. While I was changing the references, I noticed Bivouac's info and the BC Geographic Names website are similar. This suggests that Bivouac's infomation is possibly reliable, therefore they're both accurate. Black Tusk01:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This is a well developed article, especially the Geology sections. I don't know the area, but I have a few concerns about the article's comprehensiveness.
Indigenous people: At present there are two short, somewhat repetitive paragraphs on the indigenous people, mainly discussing what they call the mountain. There isn't anything on how they use the area, and little on why it's important to them. Concerns have been raised about this on the talk page, but I don't see that they've been addressed.
Flora and fauna: What animals and plants might one find in the area, and especially on the mountain? Is this typical of the region, or distinctive in any way? How high is the treeline?
Volcanic hazards: The article outlines many potential hazards of volcanic activity here. In light of this, some statement about how these risks are managed might be appropriate. Is there any monitoring for seismic activity?
I'm also dubious about the copyright status of the recently added topographic map. The flickr license checks out, but do we have any evidence that the uploader there has any right to license it? It looks like a government product; at the bottom, there's a reference to the Surveys and Mapping Branch of something. I agree a map of the area and nearby peaks would be nice, but I'm not sure about this one. (The map of the volcanic belt is wonderful, by the way.) -- Avenue (talk) 18:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Avenue. I was going to add some infomation about the flora and fauna in the area, but I haven't had time. I was plaining on expanding the "Glaciers and Icefields" section, which is too short. I'm not sure if there's any monitoring for seismic activity; perhaps that's how they know about the seismic activity in the area since the earthquakes seem to be small. User:OldManRivers has mentioned he is going to add more infomation about the Skwxwu7mesh since it's obviously lacking. Black Tusk22:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that addresses that point. I've reworded the new text as it seemed to be nearly a verbatim copy of the source. -- Avenue (talk) 00:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Black Tusk, it would be helpful to my pea brain if you would stop prefacing your comments with Support, as that has specific meaning on a FAC (see WP:FAC instructions). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but that's how the English language works. Support means to give active help and encouragement. It's not my fault Wikipedia has such awkward rules that demonstrate the English language incorrectly. Therefore I will never comment on this page again. If you have a problem deal with it. Black Tusk22:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Self-nomination. I'm nominating this article for featured article because it is a comprehensive and well-referenced biography of a somewhat controversial figure. It has been a good article for almost a year and underwent a peer review last October. It has been extremely stable since then. Savidan01:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I haven't given it a thorough readthrough yet, but some issues I see:
Please consistently use F.B.I. or FBI.
Please review the quotations to ensure that ending punctuation is placed outside the quote marks unless you are quoting a complete sentence (example: undertaken by a "kangaroo court.")
Please change the all-caps article titles to sentence case to improve readability (example: SYMPOSIUM CRITICAL LEGAL HISTORIES)
Examples of refs that need accessdates:
Williams, Houston. May 2, 2005. "U.S. Government Declares $1 Million Bounty For Assata Shakur, Tupac's Godmother." All Hip Hop News.
Daly, Michael. 2006, December 13. "The Msgr. & the Militant." New York Daily News.
Examples of refs that need publishers:
Ryan, Andrew J. "Tupac Shakur: Keeping it Real vs. Keeping it Right
Riley, Lisa. 2008, March 26. "Assata Shakur." The Gazette.
Is there a reason that so many NYT citations have no author name or article title? It would be difficult to look these up. Examples:
New York Times. March 31, 1977. Section 2, Page 6, Column 3.
New York Times. March 31, 1978. Section 2, Page 17, Column 3.
Thank you for your thorough comments. The New York Times sources include all the information that lexis-nexis provided me, which unfortunately did not include a title or author. They are traceable using that database. Also, does your comment about punctuation and quotation marks apply to bibliographic titles in footnotes? Otherwise, I think your comments have been addressed. Savidan05:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Upon further investigation, I've found that I can find more complete citations with Proquest Historical. I'll fill those in asap. Savidan05:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed the last name/first name thing. I don't like those templates, though. I think they create too big a barrier to new contributors, both directly and by making the raw text of the article incomprehensible. I think we need to have a very good reason before straying too far from WYSIWYG and this template does not meet that threshold. Savidan17:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please, if you're using the Author short name and page number style for footnotes, make it easy to find the full bibliographic entry. Easiest is to just make a "Bibliography" or "References" section so that things can be found. Several notes refer to other works that may or may not be given before. As near as I can read, the current ref 7 "Scheffler 2002, p 203" I can't find any author by that name in the previous references, and same for current ref 10 Churchill and VanderWall.
Along the same lines, you use the author, date, page number system for a couple of the shortened refs, but then you use Assata p. 247 for current ref 35. Please try to stay consistent with one system for shortened notes?
Current ref 40 "William Evely A. "Statement of Facts..." is lacking a publisher. This is on his site, correct? Also the same deal for current ref 6 Cleaver, Kathleen2005 "The Fugitive: Why has ..."
Thank you for your comments. I have shortened footnotes iff the full source appears in the "References" section. I can't speak for the entirity of allhiphop.com but their news articles are pretty reliable. If you don't believe me, take their word for it: [9]. The link you have provided for popmatters seems good enough: they're just a specialized magazine for music. What makes them not reliable sources? We aren't talking about blogs here, but internet news sources. The link I have provided for allhiphop and the link you have provided for popmatters show that "main stream" news sources regard them as reliable. I have made the Assata reference consistent as you suggested. The Williams reference does not have a "publisher"; it is written by one of Shakur's attorneys and should be considered a primary source. It is being used only for three relatively non-controversial points; this information could be verified from other sources, but news sources like the nyt tend to present only snippets of information, so I would have to cobble together four references for the same sentence rather than refer the reader to one source. An eye witness to the trial should be considered reliable for what happened at the trial, but just to be safe, I have not used her as a source in relation to the the trooper's testimony. The cleaver reference does have a publisher. It was published in Essence. Savidan01:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For William ref, the publisher would be the website. Thanks muchly for putting the often used refs into their own section, makes things much easier to check. As for pop matters, are they a printed magazine or just online? Is a media company behind them? Same for allhiphop, are they a published magazine/newspaper? Is a media company behind them? How do they gather their information? Ealdgyth - Talk04:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't quite know if I agree with you about the website being the "publisher". This is just a statement that she wrote which has been posted multiple places on the internet; it's not like it was commissioned by any one website or anything. As the website is already included in the hyperlink, what do you think is gained by going out on a limb to refer to it as the publisher? Frankly, I'm a little bit surprised to be defending the reliability of these two websites to you, as I believe they are relatively well-known. Obviously, neither of these are printed; only online. Being as Wikipedia generally accepts even well-known blogs as sources, it seems odd that something a few steps up on the web-only food chain would be questioned. I don't know, obviously, the exact editorial/research model of either site. AHH has been used as a source by CNN, The Source, XXL, Complex, New York Post, New York Daily News; PM has been quoted by BBC, NPR, MSNBC, Radio Australia, and VH1. Both are indexed by google news. We aren't dealing with some blog or internet forum here. Savidan04:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry if you are surprised to be defending some websites, but they aren't well known to me. WP:RS looks for the best sources possible. A publisher is someone who puts forth the information, thus if you are using a web site as a source, it is the publisher of the information as you are using it in their form. It's who published the information. Ealdgyth - Talk01:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough about the second part; I will make the website explicit. Just to be clear: is it your claim that these sources are not reliable, or were just looking for information? Savidan02:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mainly, looking for information. Normally, I'd be able to dig a bit deeper, but I'm on the road at a hotel, and with less than optimal bandwith, so deep checking of sources has been more difficult for the last two weeks. Neither site screams "unreliable" but I was unable to do a really deep dig to find out that they were reliable either. Often times it's easier to ask the folks who know the sources, especially when I'm much out of my depth. It'd be like you looking at this site and trying to figure out if it was reliable. If you don't know the subject, it's harder to judge the sources. Hope this helps. Ealdgyth - Talk02:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean to imply that I was an expert in either source; I guess these are just websites that I read a lot so I am more prone to take them at their word (both for their content and appraisal of themselves, linked above, I believe). Please take your time if you want to dig deeper. Savidan04:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see some published newspapers there, including the New York Times, that use or report stuff from allhiphop, so there we go. Just the one missing publisher, I think. (Unless I missed you fixing that, which I might have.) Ealdgyth - Talk14:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support, much improved and no remaining issues from me. Oppose The prose is long-winded and hard to follow in several places; I suggest getting someone to go through and chop up many of the longer sentences. There are some basic MoS and fair use issues. Some specific examples of fixes needed:
"Since May 2, 2005, she has been classified as a domestic terrorist by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), which has offered a $1 million reward for assistance in her capture." The wording "has offered" suggests they are no longer offering.. is that correct?
"She married Louis Chesimard in April 1967 and divorced him in December 1970." No other details? Why?
I have added another sentence about her marriage. It didn't last very long and its biggest effect on her life was probably the name change. Savidan21:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"... changing her name to Assata Shakur and later the Black Liberation Army." She changed her name to the Black Liberation Army? Please reword this sentence.
A tad overlinked. We don't need things like "divorce" and "Monsignor" wikilinked.
I have de-linked "divorce" but I believe "Monsignor" is too esoteric a title to present without a wikilink; even many catholics wouldn't know its meaning. Savidan21:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"After her capture, however, Shakur was not charged with any of the murders that had made her the subject of the manhunt." I reworded this a bit and was tempted to remove the phrase "that had made her the subject of the manhunt" but I didn't want to affect the meaning. The way it reads, it is possible that she was charged with other murders - just not the particular ones that the manhunt involved. Is that the case? If she was not charged period, please remove that last phrase.
I have clarified this sentence. She was charged with other crimes, including murders, as the reader shall see in the beginning of the "Trials" section. However, there was no overlap between the crimes that made her the subject of the manhunt and the crimes she was eventually charged with. Savidan21:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"On May 2, 1973, just after midnight, Shakur, at that time a member of the Black Liberation Army and no longer a member of the Black Panther Party, along with Zayd Malik Shakur (born James F Coston) and Sundiata Acoli (born Clark Squire), was stopped on the New Jersey Turnpike in East Brunswick by State Trooper James Harper and backed up by Trooper Werner Foerster, for driving with a broken taillight, only 200 yards (183 m) away from a police administration building." Way too long. Also, if you're not going to use the conversion template for figures like "200 yards", you need to put non-breaking spaces between the number and the unit. Please check the whole article for these.
I have broken up this sentence and inserted the non-breaking spaces. I don't see any other instances of this. Savidan21:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Acoli then drove the car (a white Pontiac LeMans with Vermont license plates)—which contained Assata, who was wounded, and Zayd, who was dead or dying; several miles down the road, where Assata Shakur was apprehended." Don't begin a break with an em dash and end it with a semicolon, please.
"Between 1973 and 1977, in New York and New Jersey, Shakur was indicted ten times, resulting in seven different criminal trials, including two bank robberies, the kidnapping of a Brooklyn heroin dealer, attempted murder of two Queens police officers stemming from a January 23, 1973 failed ambush, and the murder of a New Jersey state trooper." Length.
"... and hers resulted in a mistrial in 1974 because of the possibility of miscarriage; Shakur was hospitalized on February 1." The sequence of events is quite unclear here. Was she hospitalized first, then the mistrial? Or the other way around?
"One prospective juror was dismissed for reading Target Blue (ISBN 978-0440084891), a book by Robert Daley..." Would you object to putting the ISBN in a footnote?
"Trooper Harper's three official reports state that after he stopped the Pontiac, he ordered Acoli to the back of the vehicle for Trooper Foerster—who had arrived on the scene—to examine his driver's license, and that after Acoli complied and as he was looking inside the vehicle to examine the registration, Trooper Foerster yelled and held up an ammunition clip, as Shakur simultaneously reached into her red pocketbook, pulled out a nine-millimeter weapon and fired at him." Marathon.
"Judge Appleby eventually cut off funds for expert defense testimony." This is sort of hanging out at the end of that paragraph but I'm not sure why it's there. It's obviously a key point but how does it connect to what you are writing? Does your source claim a reason for his doing so? What are the implications?
I have clarified this sentence. The source claims no reason; only the fact. I don't want to speculate as to the reasons (I'd be glad to tell you my ideas via email;) ... but I don't think its appropriate for the article). Savidan21:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. I added this under the impression it was free so why not. It's not important enough to use a non-free image. Savidan21:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your detailed comments. I will remedy finish remedying them or reply in the next few twenty-four hours. Savidan01:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I normally try to avoid imbedding replies, but you have made so many objections that I feel any other form of response will make this incomprehensible to other fac reviewers. My responses are thus above. Most of your changes I have made; others I have resolved another way or disagree with (see above). Savidan21:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose. To me, the article came across as very pro-Shakur. There is very little information in the article about the prosecution's case in the NJ Turnpike trial. Did any witnesses try to rebut her medical evidence? Did the prosecution present any evidence beyond the trooper's testimony? Also, why are her other trials not covered? I believe the article should at least briefly outline the charges in each case, especially the one that resulted in the hung jury.
I consider this objection to be unactionable as currently stated. The information about the trial is exhaustive in terms of published sources; for this objection to become actionable, it must be demonstrated that the article has omitted some published information. The same with the other trials; they are covered, there's just is not as much published information about them as there is about her main trial. Please be more specific about the information that you would like added; please do not request information just based on what you'd personally like to know, but rather what has been published. Savidan16:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am no expert on this person (I never heard of her before reading this article), and I have no idea what is available and what is not, therefore I cannot provide you with a list of particular sources to use. However, I find it difficult to believe that in a trial apparently covered pretty broadly there would be no other information about the prosecution's case, especially considering that many of the people in the area likely sympathized more with the prosecution than the defense (at least that is the impression I got from this article). Karanacs (talk) 17:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The key element of the prosecutions case—Trooper Harper's testimony—is covered in the article. There weren't any witnesses other than the four mentioned in that section; all the crime lab evidence (fingerprints and gunpowder residue) is also mentioned. I don't know what other evidence you think the prosecution would want to admit for a case like this. I seriously doubt there was some video footage that they showed that somehow was never mentioned in any of the articles I've read about this... Savidan20:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The article is strongly biased in favor of Shakur. Some examples:
Most of the "turnpike trial" section is dedicated to her defense that she couldn't have fired the shot. Well, that's irrelevant, she wasn't convicted of firinig the shot, she was convicted of being an accomplice. That fact gets one sentence, the irrelevant details about gunpowder and her wounds get three quarters of the section. And even the important sentence starts "Although the prosecution could not prove that Shakur fired the shots that killed either Trooper Foerster or Zayd Shakur" - clearly biased phrasing.
I agree with you that this defense does not remedy the accomplish charge; however, that's just both of our opinions, it's not a neutral fact. Nor does it make the information "irrelevant". These sectinos present the citable information about what evidence was presented at her trial. Whether it seems relevant to you (or me or anyone else) is not the issue. The important thing is that the article describe what transpired at her trial to the extent that it can be cited. As for the last part: this is not a biased phrasing, this is merely a statement of cited information. The fact that someone was charged as an accomplice because it couldnt be proved that they did the nominal crime is notable. Savidan15:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't remove it, just shorten it so it doesn't get so much relative weight. Severely shorten it. Focusing on irrelevancies is an attorney's tactic, we shouldn't. Giving the same page space to prosecution's and defense's case seems a good first approximation; if you consider that the prosecution carried their case, you may even want to give the prosecution's case more space. --GRuban (talk) 15:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Judge Appleby eventually cut off funds, effectively preventing any further expert defense testimony." Biased language, implying that it was the nasty mean judge, who didn't let the truth come out that it wasn't actually Shakur who fired the shot, when that wasn't the point.
The sentence does not say that he was a nasty judge. It says that he cut off funds, which he did. That he cut of funds is a fact; that he was a nasty judge or that he didnt want the truth to come out are two possible opinions which could be associated with this fact (although not the interpretation I subscribe to), but they are not stated in the article. Savidan15:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The rather important claim that a trooper admitted to lying is cited to an editorial column by a prominent Shakur supporter, whose profession is professor of theology; in fact that editorial column is used as a source six times.
The escape is glossed over. "No one, including the guards, was injured during the prison break." Biased, clearly implies it was carried out by the forces of goodness, if even the guards didn't get hurt. If something didn't happen, don't write about it. Instead, how about looking how the best known newspaper in the country writes about it? "Killer Says He Helped In Chesimard's Escape"" 2 Ex-Fugitives Convicted of Roles In Fatal Armored-Truck Robbery" And the accomplices weren't just "charged with assisting in her escape;" or "held on charges related to the escape", thurey were tried and convicted, a rather important difference.
I can tell this is going to be a recurring problem with you. That no one was injured in a fact; that those who carried out her escape were the "forces of goodness" is just not in the article at all. You seem to be making your comments based on your own emotional reponses to the facts in the article rather than the way that facts are cited or stated. This is one of several citable details mentioned. I will add the conviction info, though. Savidan15:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, actually, I am responding to the way the facts are stated. The most neutral way to say that something didn't happen is not to say it. Consider if the article bore the following "facts"? "Despite the overwhelming anger felt by the policemen, who were friends of the murdered victim, Shakur was not beaten, was not starved, was not waterboarded"? "The sentence was not successfully appealed to any court of appeals." "The governor did not pardon Shakur or commute Shakur's sentence." These would all be facts, but no less biased in the way they were stated. --GRuban (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Shakur maintains her innocence to this day" - innocence of what? Again, remember, she was convicted of being an accomplice, which she doesn't deny. She seems to be insisting she didn't pull the trigger, but that's not what she was convicted of.
It is important to say somewhere that she claims to be innocent; but it would be preferable to be specific about the way in which she claims it. I also propose that it is important that she advocates armed struggle, since, while that doesn't mean she did or did not kill anyone, it does seem to say she endorses killing in general in certain cases. The specific NYTimes article there seems to refer to some other (Newsday?) article, that would be a preferable source, if you have access to it.
"Sheriff Joseph DeMarino lied to the press about the exact date of her transfer to Clinton State Correctional Institute " - again, biased language. Is it really that important where she was held at each state of her trial and imprisonment? It seems just an excuse to get the comment that police lie in the article one more time.
This has been discussed extensively on the talk page. "lied" is the word used in the article cited and by the sheriff himself. It is important where she was held, as apparently it was headline worthy at the time, as was the sheriff feeling the need to misinform the press about it. Savidan15:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Where is Christine Whitman's widely publicized statement, in which she attacks Shakur?
Where is information about the slain police officer?
Please be more specific about which information you would like to see about him. This is not his bio (although its likely he'd be deemed notable if an article were started about him). Savidan15:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quite right. The proposal is more in the interest of balance, if we can reduce the emotional content that seems to make the reader sympathize with Shakur, we can live without much on the officer.
"All of the jury members were white" - cited to a NYTimes article, but no link provided. All NYTimes archives are on the web now, provide a link.
Not all historical nyt articles are available online, and often not for free. I'll see if i can a free link though. Savidan15:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I consider most of these objections a little unreasonable. Some of them don't even maintain the pretense of commenting on the article as a compilation of neutrally presented and verifiable facts, but rather concern themself with arguing directly about a given point of view related to Shakur. For example, your first comment, rather than saying that the information in the article is inaccurate, says that its irrelevant because it doesn't prove that Shakur was innocent. It should go without saying that this is not the standard for relevance. The goal of this section is to neutrally and factually present verifiable information about her trial. To say that the cited facts about the trial are "irrelevant" because they don't accomplish some external argumentative purpose misses the purpose completely. However, you have raised some legitimate issues, which I will respond to/remedy specifically. Savidan14:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As the other user says above, this article is the first time I have ever heard of this case. If you assume anyone who criticizes this article must have a personal point of view against Shakur, you won't get far. --GRuban (talk) 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't assume that you have a personal view against Shakur, only that some of your comments reflect a set of assumptions about the opinions readers should form from the facts presented in the article, rather than focusing solely on the accuracy and neutrality of the information itself. I think that ultimately I will be able to remedy many of these to your satisfaction, though. Savidan19:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Comment The citations should be properly formatted, the red cite errors need to be taken care of, linking to copyright violations is frowned upon, and at least one of the citations you use gives a 404 error. BuddingJournalist16:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm staying out of this vote, but I should point out that Wikipedia editors can't evaluate whether a third party Web site has obtained permission for its music (or whatever it is that bothers you). If a featured article candidate page is stable, i.e. the same link has been present a long time on the Wikipedia site about the band, not a new one every hour, then I'm inclined to believe that the target of that link is innocent of copyright violation until proven guilty. Wnt (talk) 01:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's a lot of unsourced information in the article.
Prose could use some brushing up.
The band actually received death threats about it on a UK tour in the early 1990s. Words like "actually" don't sound encyclopediac, and sounds slightly POVish.
Quite a few short, stubby sentences, making the prose start-and-stop in places.
Note: {{cite web}} is not a requirement. References only need to be properly and consistently formatted; relevant information such as author, date of publication, publisher, title, etc. should be given. BuddingJournalist16:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"so why aren't some of them?" I think you're mistaking me for the nominator. I never said that references were properly formatted in the article, and in my very first comment above, I point out that they aren't properly formatted. I'm just pointing out that {{cite web}}has never been an FAC requirement, nor should it be. The use of citation templates is up to the individual editor, as per guidelines; people can format citations perfectly fine without them. Ask Sandy, Raul, or any other FAC regular. BuddingJournalist21:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I did not mistake you for the nominator. I said it is generally a requirement. {{cite web}} is far easier to use and manage than manually formated references, so I do not understand why it isn't used. I may have been mistaken, but regardless, properly formated references are a requirement. JuliancoltonTropicalCyclone15:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I note that two other editors have contributed significantly to this article, at nearly 3 times your edits apiece. Quantity isn't necessarily quality, of course, but I see that they've both been working on it for years, and you'd be wise to follow the FAC instructions for posting on the article talk page or otherwise contacting principle contributors before bringing the article to FAC. Maralia (talk) 17:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
see [11] this is the Soundgarden page before i came. This is the Soundgarden page when i startet to work on it [12]. I've done all the work on the page, i'm not saying the other users didn't edit but i made it to what it is now. --Freedom (song) (talk) 18:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dud i know you have written most of the article i just ment that i made it to how it is now. You have as much credit as me when it comes to this article. No you should have more credit okay. I didn't mean i wrote the article to make that clear. --Freedom (song) (talk) 08:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
The use of "later" in the first para of the lead is awkward and not really adding anything
There's really no free image?
"first grunge band to sign to a major label, but the band" - overuse of band...try some variety/rewordings
Ref 2 publisher shouldn't have italics
"Soundgarden was formed in 1984 by Chris Cornell (drums & vocals) and Hiro Yamamoto (bass), who were later joined by Kim Thayil (guitar)" - "who" should be "they", and comma should be semicolon (or else reword some other way...)
"Despite being good friends with Thayil, Pavitt was not impressed by Soundgarden, but agreed since Poneman offered to contribute $20,000 in funding for Sub Pop." - needs ref
Audio samples often need a wlink to the song's article (noticed this on "Flower")
"After the release of the album Soundgarden supported the album" - this prose needs work (repetition)
"Although the album was overshadowed by the sudden popularity of Nirvana's Nevermind, at the same time, the focus of attention brought by Nevermind to the Seattle scene brought Soundgarden wider attention, allowing the singles "Outshined" and "Rusty Cage" to find an audience at alternative radio and MTV." - very clunky sentence, try rewording
"Afterward, the band then returned for" - redundant word there
"Despite strong reviews, the album did not match its predecessor's sales." - needs ref
Don't refer to them by first names (eg. "Chris Cornell said"), just use surnames after the first time they're named
As the expression goes: "I smell a rat." I agree with Rudget (who has a habit of beating me to these things ;).) I think an SSP or Checkuser might be in order here. Qst (talk) 15:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm nominating this article for featured article because...as the creator/main editor associated with the article, I believe that this article now, as a result of a peer review, adheres to the criteria for FAs. So, as a result, I self-nominate this article for FA status. Any compliments, comments, or criticism is welcome and very much encouraged. Thanks! Hurricane Angel Saki (talk) 00:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments.
The "Storm path" image caption could be a bit better...you could describe the path a bit, to make the image more meaningful.
"A short-lived hurricane which rapidly organized to a Category 1 hurricane" - can alternative words ("storm", perhaps?) be used instead of the repetition of hurricane?
Should em dashes (—) be used in the 2nd para of the lead?
In the refs, I don't think Associated Press should be listed as an author. Also, the newspaper publishers should be in italics.
Oppose. Impressive work digging up all those old sources, and a good start, but the prose is quite rough. The lead was downright painful - long, unwieldy sentences, awkward constructions, some basic grammar errors. MoS breaches found. I see you had a peer review but you really need to get some more eyes on this before it's ready to post here. I would tap any number of authors that have written excellent hurricane FAs, as this looks to have been mainly a one-editor show. Examples:
"A short-lived hurricane which rapidly organized to a Category 1 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale before landfall, Naomi crossed Mexico while active, dumping heavy rains through Mexico and Texas in connection with a frontal system over the Gulf Coast, with heaviest rains falling in Corpus Christi, Texas." Toooo loooooong.
"Although a worker was injured in Texas when the rains from Naomi's remains caused the roof of the plant they were working in to collapse..." Wording, grammar.
MoS examples: Hyphen in a citation that should be an en dash; need non-breaking spaces between numbers and the non-number item they go with (ex 3:00 GMT) -Laser brain(talk)03:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK thanks all who've commented. I heard this out, and I'll answer. First, I tweaked out the Olga link. At first, I gave it as an example of what could have happened in Mexico, but to that degree, I'd have to add every cyclone to cause effects via dam breaks or openings. Also, the reason I used the Storm Advisory source was to give an image of where, location-wise, the cyclone dissipated. Best track would be good, but plotting the towns would take slight guesswork. And to address Dihydrogen, if you noticed, pretty much all WPTC articles (even FAs) have the same storm path idea, so the need to change it isn't of great importance, especially considering that the storm history discusses the path in more effect. Finally, I will change the AP writers, but only if there is something better to substitute them with, such as the newspaper who published the article (in my career of using that site for sources, rarely are individuals credited with the writing). Everything else I can work on to my best degree. More comments are appreciated! Hurricane Angel Saki (talk) 04:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I rewrote the first paragraph of the lede, but I couldn't make sense of the second paragraph. Also, the article starts with the boilerplate "Naomi was the nth tropical cyclone, mth tropical storm, and lth hurricane of the k hurricane season" that is too common in hurricane lead sections. Please write why the storm was important first, then start with the statistics. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff)07:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that you added a sentence to the lede, but it was too general. While Wikipedia isn't governed by journalistic practices, the Five Ws are a good idea to keep in mind while editing an introduction. I rewrote the entire lede, removing most of the ESSA-6 stuff (it was irrelevant for a lede) and trying to copyedit it at the same time. That said, the article itself is not bad, but it has paragraphs that are too long and disorganized at times. So, weak object. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff)21:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Nomination - After the previous unsuccessful nomination, Sabre and I have gone through the previous comments raised and held a peer review, where a lot of good feedback came out. As a result, we've heavily updated the article with this feedback and feel it's ready for another go. I'll be on-hand to address any concerns that may crop up as a result. Many thanks, GazimoffWriteRead08:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I've tried to tweak a few things here and there to prepare the article for FA. I believe this articles meets all the standards. ~ UBeR (talk) 15:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Just a note to say I'm also on-station to solve any issues raised. Hopefully there won't be as many this time around though. -- Sabre (talk) 16:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:The orange box soundtrack.jpg: Is this image actually necessary (WP:NFCC#3A) to understand The Orange Box compilation (the actual topic of this article) and, if so, is that contribution really significant (NFCC#8)? What does the soundtrack cover tell us about the games, the compilation or the music therein. Doesn't the presence of a box cover with Gordon, the Half-Life logo and the Valve logo provide sufficient identification/illustration or "linking"?
The soundtrack was sold as a separate item, hence the inclusion of the cover to represent it. Rather than having a separate article to cover the soundtrack, it was felt that it would be more suitable to include it in the main article. The previous FAC also cited concerns over lack of imagery, which is why an image to describe this significant accompanying work was included. Hope this helps. GazimoffWriteRead21:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not strike the comments of others. No, this does not help. Merely existing and/or not having an independent article are not sufficient reasons to warrant inclusion of a fair use image. Images are not required for FA; requests therefor, without grounding in policy, are not valid. The soundtrack has representation by prose; why is the image needed, per the questions I've posed? ЭLСОВВОLДtalk22:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:HL2-BlackBox PC.jpg: Why is this image necessary to understand the existence of a "black box" version? As it is literally a black box (albeit with nondescript grey detail) with prose, why isn't prose alone sufficient to convey understanding (NFCC#1)?
I believe it's also a place holder box art, a similar one was produced for the orange box that didn't end up being the art (probably a pre-release thing), and probably never was intended to be. So, yeah.. don't really need it. Rehevkor (talk) 18:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Team Fortress 2 is completely different from Episode 2. The simularities end at them being on the same engine and by the same developer, they are not the same game. Episode 2 strives for realistic graphics, while TF2 is cartoon based. The two images are necessary as they exemplify two different games. -- Sabre (talk) 18:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, but the placement, then, is problematic. Team Fortress 2 would be a more appropriate section in which to place the image, as its current position is quite removed from the relevant commentary. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk18:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We did juggle around with image placement before, believe me, it makes the article look rather bad if placed in the TF2 section. That's why they're spread out like they are. The only other options would be to move it to where the black box and soundtrack images are if they are removed. -- Sabre (talk) 18:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's better. An uninformed suggestion/possibility: don't some VG articles have system requirements in their own box? Could they perhaps be moved to such a box (and put in, say, Development) to allow a shorter infobox and, thus, room for the TF2 image? ЭLСОВВОLДtalk18:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know there was some discussion about the infobox, where I believe it was decided to group the information together. I'll try and find out some more information on this, but I'd be keen to know how big a problem this is, as I wouldn't want to break the consistency we have with other VG articlesGazimoffWriteRead22:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a problem; the suggestion to move requirements was relevant iff more room was needed for the TF2 image. As there's plenty of room, the infobox is fine. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk22:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, must have been one of the others I was thinking about (probably the portal one). We certainly did juggle something into that section and it looked bad. In any case, it looks ok now. I've ditched the Black Box image, as I agree it adds nothing - theres nothing to see in the image anyway. I'm waiting on Gazimoff's opinion about the soundtrack image though. As for the requirements infobox, they're down to the opinions of the individual editors. I for one don't really like them, I can't really see any use for it other than to fill space. Besides, the TF2 image looks fine where it is, relocating information in the infobox for the sake of the image shouldn't be necessary. -- Sabre (talk) 18:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The latter was just a suggestion for organization sake; it has no impact on the FAC. I don't have conflicts at 1680x1050, so I'm content without the separate box. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk18:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "being the surprise favorite of the package." The or a surprise favorite? Overview would be better named as Games in my opinion. BuddingJournalist21:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Overview of games"? Or is that too much? I don't see much of a difference between "a surprise favorite" compared to "the surprise favorite." Each indicate that it's the favorite among the rest. ~ UBeR (talk) 21:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This came up in the previous FAC and in the peer review. Essentially, from reading the source material, Portal was the surprise favourite of the package. it had virtually no hype or preview, yet received numerous accolades both from videogame journalists and the wider media. They excpected the package to be successful, but didn't expect Portal to be the best bit of the pack. The sources reflect this use of this term as well. Additionally, we have used Overview rather than Games, in order to be consistent with similar videogame article styles with a standard structure and form. Plus, the Overview forms an overview of the package as a whole, Reception covers the package as a whole, so it keeps the overall flow of the article as one unified package.GazimoffWriteRead21:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah OK. The thing about "the" vs "a" is that "the" can be construed to be "modifying" "favorite" more than "surprise"; the sentence then implies that Portal was the critical favorite for the package overall, not just a surprise favorite (which would imply one of the top favorites rather than the favorite game of reviewers). Of course, if this is indeed the case, then this point is moot. BuddingJournalist22:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that interesting. I modified it to "a surprise favorite" before coming here and reading the commentary, so since it struck both of us independently as an issue, and since I value my opinion very much (!), I would have to say that your criticism was justified. My reasoning was that while everyone loved Portal, TF2 and of course HL2 received higher scores on average and so labeling Portal as the favourite seemed argumentative rather than factual. Anyways, fixed. Was that all that was standing in your way of supporting? clicketyclickyaketyyak00:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
QuestionAre so many "Main article: " tags needed rather than just linking the first mention of the game? It makes the article much more spaced out and listy. The article is full of short sections anyway. indopug (talk) 17:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good question. The Orange Box is fairly unique in that it is five games in one package. Two of those games (Half-Life 2 and the Episode 1 expansion) had been released previously in seperate packages. Episode 2, Portal and Team Fortress 2 were only released as part of the Orange Box package initially. It's why there are five 'Main Article:' links, one for each component of the Orange Box, as each has a spin-off article of it's own. Hope this helps GazimoffWriteRead18:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see no problems with it, presentation seems fine to me in that regard. I'm personally more of a fan of using the {{main}} template, linking the first mention of the article seems to me a bit sloppy in this regard. Using the template provides a clear "go here for more information" rather than just standard links, which to me is necessary as this article is meant to bring all those articles together. I suppose it just comes down to a matter of opinion of editors. -- Sabre (talk) 18:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note that there are only 5 {{main}} templates--one for each of the games featured in The Orange Box. This is not a problem. It is also in accordance with various page layout and style guidelines. ~ UBeR (talk) 20:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand their purpose and the nature of this boxset, but I thought it looks worse with templates. They further break up an already highly sectioned article, giving it a rather listy look. Then again, your reasoning for including the templates is sound so no issues. indopug (talk) 21:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly understandable that the presentation looks weird with it, but I think readers come to expect that when one links in an article through {{main}} or {{seealso}}, they know that this is not just Wikilinking to help understand a term , but that genuinely there is more information behind that link that specifically relates to the article at hand. I will point that these work fine for Crazy Taxi (series) that splits off to 5 different game articles.Scratch that, I thought I had them in there when I worked it through FA, but can't tell when they were removed. I think this is just a matter of the editor opinion here, as long as its clear where further information is to be found. --MASEM21:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not to cause a fuss, but I do agree with Indopug, though it doesn't bother me overly much. It seems likely to me that the reason they were taken out of Crazy Taxi was because, like Orange Box, it contains some very short summaries of the games included. If all the Orange Box descriptions were a little longer, then it might look better, but because they are all so short — one is only three sentences long and two are only four lines long — it does look choppy. Again, it isn't a real issue to me and since it's already been resolved, I'll shut up now. clicketyclickyaketyyak00:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm sorry that no one has taken a hard look at this, but substantive work has not been done to bring this up to FA standard before being posted here and it shows. GA passage by another video game editor and a blank peer review. The prose is very rough and, at the very least, needs thorough treatment by an uninvolved general-audience editor before closer examination is possible. Grammar, prose, and in-universe problems are easily spotted in the lead and elsewhere:
"The first-person shooters Half-Life 2 and its first expansion, Episode One, have both been previously released as separate products in November 2004 and June 2006, respectively." Grammar, wordiness.
"The Orange Box has received critical acclaim, with Portal being a surprise favorite of the package." The "with ... <gerund>" construction is not of a professional standard.
The particular grammatical construction you used in that sentence ("... with Portal being...") is not good. An experienced copyeditor can help you identify and revise these throughout the article. --Laser brain(talk)23:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Through the Steam platform for the Windows version, the games can collect and report in-depth player data such as where the player died..." The player dies? Not the character? Dangerous game. --Laser brain(talk)17:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments - I'll try to work through them soon. There have been three editors who have been working hard on resolving issues found with this article, but there may be a problem relating to being too close to the prose. For your reference, the peer review (covered by four editors) can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Peer_review/The_Orange_Box. Hope this helps, GazimoffWriteRead23:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My bad for missing the WikiProject peer view. I clicked the link to the general peer review. I certainly don't mean to impugn the hard work that has been done already - but as you pointed out, "outside" review and copyediting is needed. --Laser brain(talk)23:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have made an attempt at addressing the issues you raised. Please indicate if I have done so adequately. I do not think that it is possible to get an outside review at this moment, other than the one you are providing right now. I'll attempt to go through the article like you said, but I just finished a term paper on Kant and words have lost all meaning for me. clicketyclickyaketyyak 00:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC) EDIT: Just finished one full sweep through the article, hopefully cleaning up issues before you could raise them. Also hopefully not making things worse! clicketyclickyaketyyak04:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I am not much of a video game player, and I found some things that confused me. More context might be necessary in some cases. Also, there were prose issues (listed below are examples only, many of these problems persist in the article) and I have questions on whether some of the sources meet WP:RS.
Prose issues:
"A separate product entitled The Black Box was planned, which would have included only the new games, but it was cancelled." - passive tense, use of "entitled" vs "titled", which ones were the "new games"?
Redundant text: "Half-Life 2: Episode One continues from the events of Half-Life 2" is followed by "Episode One builds on the original" - these say basically the same thing.
Long, unwieldly sentence: "The game consists primarily of a series of puzzles that are solved by teleporting the player's character and simple objects using the Aperture Science Handheld Portal Device—the "portal gun".
Please make sure all the text is appropriately encyclopedic. Examples of non-encyclopedic phrasing are "Valve planned on releasing "
"Although Half-Life 2 has the largest proportion of Achievements, there are 99 spread across all five games, exceeding the 50-achievement limit that Microsoft maintains to feature the most Achievements of any Xbox 360 product"
I think an Achievement should be defined briefly here. I have no idea what that means.
What did they have to do to exceed the 50-achievement limit that MS maintains? (this makes it sound like that's a hard limit)
Does Half-Life 2 have the highest proportion of achievements ever, or the highest proportion among these 5 games? And I think the "Although" is likely misplaced
Any information on why Half-Life 2 does not contain in-game commentary?
The article assumes I know what Half-Life was like; a description like " While remaining similar in style to the original" means nothing to me since I don't know what the original style was.
Basically, the whole Half-Life 2 summary section assumed I understood a lot about the game, and I don't so I'm a little lost.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean "non-player characters such as Alyx Vance, whose new abilities complement Freeman's abilities and allow her to comprehend and respond to the player's actions by lending help"
The Episode One summary does not appear to be organized well. It talks about continuing from Half Life (twice), then mentions Alyx Vance, then says where it is set, then talks about Alyx Vance again.
The Episode 2 summary seems very short compared to the others.
Why is the Track listing in a cap? That is not something I am used to seeing in a featured article, and it seems a bit unprofessional to me.
It seems a bit odd to me that the Development section immediately focuses on a different game, and not on the Orange Box. There is also no information about why it was decided to release these games as a set-is that info available?
This is a little confusing "The Black Box was later canceled for retail and is now only available through Steam exclusively to owners of certain ATI graphics cards, who received a voucher for a free copy of The Black Box"
I don't understand why they felt the need to compensate for the cancellation of The Black Box, since they never actually sold any of those (at least the article doesn't say they did). This may need to be explained a bit better.
You should have a citation immediately after every quote (at least at the end of the sentence) even if the citation at the end of the paragraph covers this.
Is the info about the forums really that important? I'd probably distill this down to "A patch was released in North America on March 19, 2008 and a European patch followed soon after."
Thanks for these comments, I'll incorporate them into a copyedit I've been planning, which I hope to get wrapped up in the next couple of days. They're really appreciated and demonstrate just how valuable a third-party peer review and copyedit is. I'll work through these and reply to your talk page directly. Many thanks, GazimoffWriteRead17:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What makes http://kotaku.com a reliable source? And Why are you referencing it instead of the Time magazine article it discusses?
I checked the talk page for WP:VG/S, and it basically said that this site can meet WP:RS depending on who the blogger is. Can you demonstrate that the author of each of these postings linked to is an expert? Karanacs (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:VG/S doesn't explain how those sites meet WP:RS (which supersedes it). To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Can you provide some info about that, please? Karanacs (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the talk page for WP:VG/S, and it basically said that this site can meet WP:RS depending on who the blogger is. Can you demonstrate that the author of each of these postings linked to is an expert? Karanacs (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to refer you to this thread where Joystiq and Kotaku are discussed in great detail. Should anything further be required, I'll beed to bring it up with the project to request further information, as this may have an impact on a large number of other VG articles. Many thanks, GazimoffWriteRead21:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be some aggreement that these can be used for facts (although a few people mentioned and I agree that you should find the original articles that are summarized and source those instead if possible), but perhaps not for opinion. At least one of the references here is to cite an opinion of the game. If that author is considered an expert (published elsewhere? cited elsewhere?) then it will probably be okay, but otherwise I'd recommend taking that off. Karanacs (talk) 01:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Self-nominator: I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel that it meets the specified criteria for a FA. It's been expanded to be a reliable article with few facts missing. The only worrying aspect, for me, is perhaps it is too short, but i'll leave all that to you guys as this is my first nomination. Regards, CycloneNimrodTalk?18:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, I Oppose for now. The quality of the prose is not to FA standard and there's much redundancy. I've made some suggestions. [20]. The use of medical terminology might be excessive and a barrier to some readers. The use of the the word common worries me a little as this condition is not common. (There might be a WP:NPOV problem here). I suggest a copy-edit and a fresh pair of eyes. GrahamColmTalk18:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Current ref 5 "Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary" ... is lacking a page number
Comments The text is too difficult for the general reader, much of it reading like a medical textbook. You need to examine every use of jargon and try to either avoid it or explain it and minimise its reuse. Also, be careful with using "or" when giving a lay alternative to jargon. It can easily be interpreted as an alternative option rather than an alternative wording. I'm concerned about the choice of sources, which don't seem the most obvious choice of papers and books should one have access to a library or bookstore. Relying on Google Books restricts choice. Quick reference and study aids aren't the best medical books you could use. A specialist textbook could have a chapter on this subject that a library would allow you to photocopy and could form a solid foundation for the article. For example, ref 8 (nursing handbook) deals with SE after chest surgery but is cited for SE symptoms in general. The treatment outlined in ref 7 (diving handbook)--breathing oxygen--may not be appropriate for other causes of SE. Quite a number of the papers are case notes which, although they often give some background on the condition, aren't a first choice for a quality source. A review paper would be better. There's some confusion in the article over whether SE is easy to detect by hand or commonly detected by x-ray. I'm no medic so have no idea what the correct thing should be, but you don't do an x-ray if you have already figured it out easily by touch. The word "commonly" appears a lot. The statement "Subcutaneous emphysema is a common result of surgery" seems most unlikely. Help to reader know if this is rare (which I suspect it is) and if so, try to avoid saying "common". Given the limitations of the sources, I suspect the article is neither comprehensive or fully accurate. A peer-review by a medic with experience and better books would help. Colin°Talk22:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Colin, thanks for your thorough review. We've been working on simplifying the article for laypersons usage (in regards to jargon) over the past few days although it clearly needs some more work from what you've said. I'm not quite sure what your concern is over references, is it all of them or just those linked to Google Books or other odd textbooks like the nursing book? If the former is your concern, i'm confused as the majority are peer-reviewed articles which are, as a whole, very reliable. I'll have to disagree with your statement "you don't do an x-ray if you have already figured it out easily by touch." and say, for example, if you feel a lump, you do not know it is cancerous (and even though you may suspect cancer, you still need the confirmation). SE is fairly common after surgery, it's just a lot of the time it isn't noticed. This shouldn't be all that surprising as surgery is essentially trauma to the body and it leaves very open wounds for air to get trapped in. Despite this, i'll get to work on correcting the ambiguity of the article and removing confusion. Thanks again for your comments. Regards, CycloneNimrodTalk?22:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks much Colin, these comments are very sound. I think the question of whether it's easy or hard to diagnose has to do with how severe a case it is (for example, here's an easy case to diagnose :P). You're right, I did have trouble finding reviews. Where I used case reports, I only used information from the parts of the article that were reviewing other data, nothing that the authors were reporting from their own findings. I too will work on making it more lay accessible and addressing your other concerns, thanks again for the input. delldottalk22:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I may not have much time on WP for the next few days. Your sources aren't so bad that you fail WP:V but aren't the top choice per WP:MEDRS. Plus, I think you may be stretching specific sources into more general use. I understand what you are saying about the use of case notes' background material and that's fine as far as it goes. The question is whether relying on such sources "exemplifies our very best work" and I'm afraid it is only second best IMO. You could try posting a request at WP:MED to see if one of the wikidocs would collaborate. Colin°Talk23:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Very reasonable Colin, I can't disagree with any of that. I'll look for more sources and let you know when I think I've addressed your concerns (it may be a bit for me too). delldottalk02:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I just took a look at the article, and I usually just focus on a section or two at first to play around with edits to get a feel of the writing. I made a few edits to one sentence, and I realized that this article needs a thorough copyediting. There's a lot of duplication. The editor may want to read User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a: redundancy exercises. I'll do more editing, but if I'm doing a lot of copyediting, not my forte, I wouldn't think that this article is ready for FA status. OrangeMarlinTalk•Contributions17:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all, first off may I thank you all for the comments you've provided and the effort some have you have put into editing the article. Secondly, I want to withdraw this nomination if possible after talking to Delldot and coming to the conclusion it's the most reasonable thing to do (since it's very unlikely for this to pass). Thanks again for your hard work. Regards, CycloneNimrodTalk?20:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks much to everyone who took the time to help review this, the efforts will definitely help improve the article. delldottalk20:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Well, this nomination is pretty different than what I'm used to nominating. The article was nominated back in August 2007, but failed. Since then it became a good article, but was delisted because it wasn't referenced enough. I added references, deleted unsourced statements, added a popular culture section, and fixed the "further reading" section. I think the article is pretty good, and can very well become a featured article. Limetolimetalk to me•look what I did!01:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose, this should be delisted immediately. Limetolime, you simply cannot make a few edits to an article and then bring it here. Your efforts are appreciated but misguided. An article like this needs to spend time under collaboration and scrutiny by its regular editors. You added an uncited pop culture section?? It is far, far, away from FA status. --Laser brain(talk)02:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose You have certainly improved this article in the 3 days you've been working on it, but it's not close to ready for FA. It's strewn with typos, punctuation errors, baffling statements ("Many chocolate manufacturers have created products from chocolate bars to fudge to become the world's largest manufacturer."), weak prose ("Chocolate is regularly eaten for pleasure."), and a mishmash of American English and British English. It is underreferenced (the entire Tempering section, for example, has no citations), the existing citations are in need of formatting work, and several links are broken. Half of the See also items are already linked in the navigational footer. I notice that you haven't requested input on the article's talk page, or approached WP:FOOD which lists it as a top importance article; peer or project review would be a much more appropriate next step, considering the current state of the article. Maralia (talk) 04:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Agree with all of the above. Definitely a good start, but needs quite a bit of polishing up of the prose, references, and general formatting. Drewcifer (talk) 06:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The second image had contained blatant vandalism for two months (!), which I've corrected. Several captions have WP:MOS#Captions (not to mention basic grammar) issues. The featured article criterion requires images appropriate to the subject; what does a chocolate Reichstag have to do with anything? The preceding issues seem to indicate that criterion three was not considered prior to nomination; were the other criteria engaged? ЭLСОВВОLДtalk15:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Definitely suggest withdrawing and going through some serious editing and Peer Review first. Large sections unreferenced, some sources don't appear to be reliable, and I didn't even look at the prose. Ealdgyth - Talk20:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Self-nom. This article about a Georgian footballer has been developing over the past few months, going through a GA nomination and two peerreviews. When it went through GA it lacked the comprehensiveness required for FAC, but thanks to the efforts of User:Jhony his later career in Russia is now well covered and a free image has been obtained. I believe it is now ready for FAC. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some minor comments
Derby section: "missing Derby's five starting matches of the 2002–03 season." I think "missing Derby's first five matches of the ..." would sound better
Rubin Kazan section: I might be wrong but shouldn't recurrance be recurrence?
Yes to both of the above, now fixed.
Are there any more images you could use?
Not free use images, apart from this barely usable one. As there's not really an iconic photograph of Kinkladze I don't think a fair use one would meet the non-free content criteria.
There is surprisingly little in the public domain, even in the 200 page biography I have a copy of. I thought about a "personal life" section, but as it would have resulted in a stubby section I decided to put the appropriate information (homesickness, marriage, car crash) as it occurs chronologically. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just for the record, some important things about him are not in the press, at least in Russian and English languages. I was unable even to find a statement about his retirement from football and I had to use another footballer's words instead to prove that. Jhony (talk) 23:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"his performances for Georgia against Wales in the 1994-95 season." Season implies that the matches were part of a league. Try to reword it.
Reworded.
"Cypriot club Anorthosis Famagusta in 2004, where he won the Cypriot championship." First, he didn't win the title; the club did. Second, there are two uses of Cypriot. Adjust one of them. Also, link Cypriot First Division if you can.
Revised on both counts.
Early life: Link Georgia at first use.
Done.
Is mtiulur misspelled? The link leads to it being spelled mtiuluri. It is in italics as well. Is this correct?
The reference used "mtiulur" but a quick Google test overwhelmingly favours "mtiuluri", suggesting the reference got it wrong, so I've changed it. The italics are per Wikipedia:MOS#Foreign_terms.
Early career: "a smaller club playing at a lower level". This looks redundant.
I don't think this is redundant - big clubs can play at lower levels (e.g. Leeds United or Hellas Verona) and small clubs can play at the top level (e.g. Wigan Athletic or Chievo).
The two matches against Wales could use citations. Are these meant to be referenced later?
These are covered by the final ref from the preceding paragraph, but it had not been repeated. Now fixed.
Manchester City: Manchester Evening News should be in italics.
Done.
This could be cleaner: "On the final day of the season the supporters used the match against Reading to campaign to keep Kinkladze at the club". Try this: "At the final match of the season against Reading, Manchester City supporters campaigned to keep Kinkladze at the club".
Changed to your improved wording.
Commas before and after first mention of Joe Royle?
Oppose - I found a lot more problems in the middle of the article, leading to my decision. Before I start, one cleanup note from the previous round. While making changes in response to my comments, you de-linked Reading F.C.. This should be linked again.
Ajax: Should Maradona be linked in the quote? Non-football fans might not understand the quote fully without it.
Derby County: "until a groin injury sustained in the return match with Middlesbrough kept him out for two months." This is confusing. Is Kindladze being described, or Eranio?
The Guardian needs italics.
Leeds should be changed to Leeds United and linked, since I don't see it mentioned before.
"since his injuries and inability to prove himself led to the lack of serious offers." Change to "a lack of serious offers".
"A similar pattern of starts and substitute appearances to the previous season followed at the start of the 2001–02 season." Followed what? I think this could be rewritten and improved.
"Jim Smith resigned from his managerial position at Derby in the same month" What same month? I think you're continuing from his child's birth in the previous paragraph. If he resigned in October 2001, say so.
Does Manchester City need to be linked again?
"and John Gregory was appointed as a manager." Drop "a".
"he has no future at the club. Had.
Comma after However?
"As the club continued attempts to terminate Kinkladze's contract" I think "its attempts" is cleaner.
"and came as a substitute" Came in.
"as he took part in build-up of both goals." This may be my lack of experience with football recaps, but should it be "the build-up"?
"from the team for the match against Russia" How about "their match"?
"as early as in the next qualifying match against Ireland." Too wordy. Try "for the next qualifying match against Ireland."
While I'm here, what tournament is this talking about? Is this European championships qualifying? If so, mention it.
"By January, because of financial crisis at Derby" The financial crisis.
"He intended to quit but," Move comma before but.
Let me know when these are done, and I'll look at more of it. Until then, take care of these and see if you can get some copy-editing help. Giants2008 (talk) 21:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All valid points. A case of having read the text too many times to recognise mistakes, I think. Most of them I've fixed as suggested, apart from a couple of cases where I've rewritten the whole sentence. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Picking up from where I left off...
"Failing to agree terms with Derby" First part of this needs cleanup.
"Without a club during pre-season" seems like it should be "the pre-season".
Remove the second Leeds United link, because it's now linked earlier.
"but none resulted in the offer of a contract" I think the following is better: "but none resulted in a contract offer."
Russia is linked a second time in close proximity to the first.
"Kinkladze went for a one-week trial at Panathinaikos by invitation of club's owner Giannis Vardinogiannis, but after completing the trial Greeks decided not to sign him." Numerous grammar issues here.
Perhaps say that Shinnik Yaroslavl is a Russian club. I had to click on the link to discover this.
Anorthosis: "Temuri Ketsbaia gave an old friend a second chance" His old friend. The sentence this is in also seems like a run-on.
"recalled in Georgia's squad" Should this be "to"?
While I realise it is no guarantee, the site is widely used by Wikiproject Football members. One of the longest running football sites on the web, it is the flagship site of the stock market listed Total Sports Online AS. The majority of its news content is a "staff and agencies" affair. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
RSSSF is also used as a source in the article. I know Ealdgyth has questioned this site in the past, and I'm not sure if she has made a decision on it. I don't really have a problem with these sport statistics sites, but I'm throwing it out there for anyone interested. Giants2008 (talk) 21:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
RSSSF is a rather singular site. It started out as an offshoot of a newsgroup, but has since become a respected source to the extent that the Danish Football Association has named it their official keeper of records and statistics. Time and time again WP:FOOTBALL members have found it to be more consistently accurate than commercial sites such as the Racing Post owned Soccerbase. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I personally think that at a minimum the article should have one more image (as per point 3 WP:FA?). It would be a shame for the article to be held back on this reason alone. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have added an image of tangential relevance, one of Derby County's home ground Pride Park Stadium. In terms of pictures of Kinkladze himself, the article already possesses a free use image. Free use images of Kinkladze are extremely scarce, and as there is no single definitive image of Kinkladze I do not believe it would be possible for a fair-use pic to fulfil the criteria at WP:NFC when a free-use pic exists and is already included. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I found a beautiful picture of Tblisi on the wikicommons and I've put that in the article too. I guess with the context i've given it's relevant enough. I feel quite strongly about the media in articles because large sections of text can be off-putting, which would be a shame given the quality of the article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 22:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Current ref 2 "Walter O'Malley" is lacking a publisher. Also, it will not load at all for Safari at all, so I have no way of judging its reliability. Possibly it's because I'm at a hotel and some weird firewall is blocking me, but nothing else has been blocked so far tonight. From the looks of the url, it's also duplicated at ref 13 "Biography: the Early Years" O'Malley Seidler Partners. Is this his own firm? If so it's more a primary source, not a
This is a website with a biography commissioned by Walter's daughter Theresa O'Malley Seidler based on primary sources. Their biographer, Brent Shyer, checked the article here at Wikipedia, and found a misspelling, and filled in some missing dates, that were added or fixed. The website is down, I contacted Brent Shyer, the official biographer and he will see what the problem is. What do we do when a website goes down and never returns? Do we switch to the cached version in Google? Since the quoted text was saved in the quote=parameter, the citation should be able to stand on its own, even is the site never returns. What do you think? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He sent me a snail mail on official stationery and gave me a number to call, then I gave him my email and he wrote me with the changes. For instance I had the year for the marriage, and he gave me the exact date. The typo was "Theresa" instead of "Therese". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While Encyclopaedia Britannica is reliable, it's very odd to see a generalist encyclopedia cite another generalist encyclopedia. Encyclopedia's are definitely tertiary sources, and it would be better to cite a secondary source instead. Not an oppose, more an general "it's better to source this way" concern.
It is removed. I believe it was just used for the lede to show notability when the article was a stub. I don't think anyone would challenge notability at this point, but the link is still in external links. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone have a preference for "Therese O'Malley Seidler (1933– ) and Peter O'Malley (1937– )." or "Therese O'Malley Seidler (born in 1933) and Peter O'Malley (born in 1937)." I have been switching to the second style, but I am not married to either. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The way this infobox is set up you have no choice but to put the URL as I understand it. In cases where single brackets are used in the input parameter I would put the URL if the infobox puts the words "Website" in a caption. If not I would use the external pipe of the URL under the words "Official website".--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"He progressed from team lawyer to team owner and president" Two teams close together. You could change one of them to Dodger(s), and remove the Dodger at the end of this sentence.
I think proper parallel structure would modify each of the three titles with the word team. Your change is O.K. too. I made some related adjustments to the sentence structure to highlight the contrast in the progress.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Next paragraph: Long sentence. I recommend a comma after 1975 season to help break it up.
Early years: It should be explained who George Steinbrenner is. As a Yankee fan I obviously know, but others may not. I'm thinking "future New York Yankees owner".
Dodgers: I have two issues with the second sentence. First, is the Brooklyn Trust Company's full name needed in two straight sentences? More importantly, the first mention of the Dodgers is here, and is not linked, nor is their full name at the time given. I would put it here and shorten the linked name later.
Typo in 1942; "'a' general manager". I did some minor cleanup with the article, and should have caught this before. Sorry about that, but it needs fixing now.
Next paragraph: This is not that important, but this is how I would have the first sentence: "Rickey was a conservative teetotaler, while O'Malley was more free-swinging." I think the comma helps illustrate their differences, and I'm not sure bit is appropriate here. Perhaps little could be used.
This is out of order, but I'm moving it into this list because it is my biggest concern here. There should be more on how O'Malley was criticized for moving the Dodgers to L.A. There is a little in Death and legacy, but nothing in the section on the move itself. Not having any criticism of the move there could easily be seen as POV. If you want help with this, I have a book about the Yankees' business history that has three chapters on the move, including several arguments that the Dodgers were better off financially than O'Malley claimed, and that O'Malley was unwilling to consider alternate stadium plans. I'm sure the fact that Los Angeles was a giant untapped market didn't hurt either.
The article is not in bad shape, but it still needs some work. (Full disclosure: As stated above, I performed some minor cleanup. Nothing major, just some small fixes.) Giants2008 (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's been virtually no activity here for more than a week. Unbelievable. With that in mind, I'm back for more.
"which made O'Malley an international baseball ambassador" isn't bad, but "making" may be better.
The Dodgers did not lose two pennant playoff games. They were both best-of-three series. St. Louis swept Brooklyn in their 1946 playoff, which is my primary concern here. The 1951 series did go the full three games, and had a famous ending. Also, Philadelphia defeated Brooklyn on the final day of the 1950 regular season, when a Dodger win would have forced another playoff.
It looks like you have put a lot of time into this article and it is well-researched. It's very impressive. Let me say that I read this as someone who knows little about baseball, but a well-written article about baseball should be interesting to someone who has never seen a game in his or her life. I found parts of the article difficult to follow, and found what I was afraid of: so much assumption of understood knowledge about baseball that the ignorant like me can't understand what is significant and what isn't. I think what you need to address is a mixture of copy editing problems and overall cohesion of the article to make it flow much better.
Walter's Irish father? Because it denotes an Irish father, was there more than one of a different ancestry perhaps?
In the lead, you have a First - then sentence segue. I think you can get rid of the First. It prepares the reader for a list.
It seems really linked to me. Partner needs a disambiguation. So does memo, but those and multiple other links could be deleted.
The article would flow much more nicely if you used topic sentences at the beginning of paragraphs, and at the beginning of each section as well, clueing the reading in a sentence, for example, that sums up O'Malley's career with the Dodgers. (It was embattled, it was considered pioneering, or lackluster, it was marked by rivalry with Branch Rickey: The years of blah blah to blah blah, were XXX for O'Malley as he acted as title for the Dodgers. Then on to explanation.)
The third paragraph in Dodgers is confusing, rather jumbled and without cohesion. For example, The signing of Robinson brought the team international notoriety means that the Dodgers got a lot of bad press, but an explanation of this is not offered in the paragraph. Signing Sandy Koufax and Roy Campanella's medical bills seem thrown together in the paragraph.
Likewise, in the next paragraph you make a statement about all Dodger fans were frustrated by losing to the Yankees in the World Series. This is a sweeping claim that I don't have faith in Time magazine to make. I would change "all" to "many".
Explain white flight for those not lucky enough to have experience with it.
"Shabby" is too informal. Use "degraded" or "decline" or "deteriorate".
Can you give examples of how New York Dodger fans felt betrayed after the team was moved to LA?
What does this mean? there was media gamesmanship.
"Broke the hearts of" - should have a quote, or should be made to seem less POV.
I'll admit I'm not a huge baseball fan, but the article should make the game politics clear and engaging to the culturally bereft like me. The first paragraph in Move to Los Angeles only confuses me and makes me want to skip to something I understand.
Which meeting was the Vero Beach meeting?
Copy edit: that helped the referendum passed; maintain a 50,000-seat stadium; develop a youth recreation center on the land; They duo of pitching aces decided
I thought the only Wrigley Field was in Chicago - can you quantify that's a Los Angeles minor league stadium?
Who remained Chairman until his death in 1979? It's unclear.
Seems like I should understand this, but I don't: by the end of the 1980s, they had not only became the first franchise to draw three million fans, but also they had done it more times than all other franchises combined
It was even said that - by whom? Rumored? Reported? Be specific here.
The last paragraph in Retire from presidency has me completely lost. Please don't make me cry.
His legacy is that of changing the mindset of a league whose southernmost and westernmost team What did his legacy change the mindset to? Or was it that he changed the league itself and not the mindset?
It appears that you have the material for a featured article here. I think it probably reads great for baseball enthusiasts, but I can't imagine the article on the main page for English speakers all over the world to try to comprehend its significance and detail. Please work on making it engaging, so that by the end I should want to plop myself into Dodger Stadium and yell obscenities at the umpire. --Moni3 (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-nominator - This article was a FAC in February, it failed to get enough support, however I felt all the issues brought up were resolved. I have since added more info, better sources, and footnotes aswell. I have changed the images around (notibly the head image was improved vastly). I have also done some general cleanup and grammar and spelling improvements. I feel that the article is now featured article material. Thanks in advance! :) Stu pendousmat (talk) 00:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Turner and Drake are a well established (1970s) real estate group in Esatern Canada...they put out a quarterly newsletter with market research pertaining to the area (including Moncton) Stu pendousmat (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I added the publisher for that, its the Virtual Museum of Canada, a division of the Government of Canada, a fairly reliable source. Stu pendousmat (talk) 19:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
footnotes or notes are usually the actual notes, with references being the bibliographical listing. If you put everything into the footnotes, then it would be references, but with the system you're using, it's more usual to flip the names. Ealdgyth - Talk02:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed all the link problems found by the "external links" check. There is still one problem coming up saying that a page re-directs, but it doesnt, I checked the link and it works perfectly. Stu pendousmat (talk) 20:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A redirected page is not an outright problem, only the page name has changed... but you might want to update your ref with the new URL just in case the link goes dead. Here we go...
History The principle of least astonishment... "expulsion" should not be linked to "Great Upheaval". Try different wording such as "the expulsion (known as the Great Upheaval)" which not only provides relevant info but lets the reader know exactly what link they are following.
History "At about the same time as the arrival of the railway, steam-powered forced an end to the era of wooden shipbuilding. The industrial collapse that developed from this caused Moncton to surrender its civic charter in 1862.[7]" steam-powered what?
History "in 1871 when Moncton was selected to be the headquarters of the Intercolonial Railway of Canada.[13] The coming of the ICR" should read "Intercolonial Railway of Canada (ICR).[13] The coming of the ICR"
History "For the next 120 years, the history of the city would be inextricably intertwined" is this a direct quote? If not, try different wording for "inextricably intertwined" as the phrase is awkward.
History "The 2006 census subsequently declared" the term "subsequently" is unnecessary. Also, try combining this sentence with the last one to create better flow.
Geography "extensive infilling by sedimentation" can "infilling" be wikilinked or explained more thoroughly?
Fixed that, i think...kinda a hard thing to word properly...basically the river was filled in and became much smaller because of the reduced flow of water due to the dam. Stu pendousmat (talk) 20:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tidal bore "The bore is as a result" try "is a result".
Tidal bore "In 1968, a causeway was built to Riverview, across the Petitcodiac just upstream from downtown Moncton. The river channel quickly silted in due to the high sediment burden in the water column." This restates information from the previous section. Rewrite to be less redundant and also de-link "causeway" as it was already linked in the previous section. Check to be sure all wikilinked are only linked on the first mention of the word or phrase.
This still isn't quite right. Was the sedimentation due to the construction of the causeway? What relevance does the causeway have to this anecdote? Is the causeway located at the bend? And its still redundant as we already learned in the previous section that the causeway was built in 1968.
Climate "Spring is frequently delayed because the sea ice that forms in the nearby Gulf of St. Lawrence during the previous winter requires time to melt and this cools the prevailing onshore winds. The ice burden in the gulf however has diminished considerably over the course of the last decade, which may be a consequence of global warming.[31] The springtime cooling effect has subsequently weakened." ... should read ... "Spring is frequently delayed because the sea ice that forms in the nearby Gulf of St. Lawrence during the previous winter requires time to melt, and this cools the prevailing onshore winds. The ice burden in the gulf has diminished considerably over the course of the last decade (which may be a consequence of global warming), weakening springtime cooling effect." Missing comma from first sentence, "however" is unnecessary, global warming needs to be wikilinked, also combine the last two sentences. BTW, is "subsequently" your favorite word? =)
Fixed that wording...and I do like that word...but to tell you the truth the majority of the writing of the article wasnt done by me, I just took what was there and modified it for the better. ;) Stu pendousmat (talk) 21:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nearby natural features "Two major national parks" are any national parks not major?
Urban parks "Metro Moncton is home to many urban parks." specify how many or remove this sentence and reword. Also, the last paragraph could be rewritten for a better flow.
Demography "it still remains a challenge to attract visible minority immigrants to the city" who is "it"? How it is challenging? This just doesn't sit right with me. Try something like "efforts to attract minorities have failed" or something to that effect.
Economy "Moncton's central location in the Maritimes is the reason for this: 1.4 million people live within a three-hour drive of Moncton which is the largest catchment area in Atlantic Canada." try rewording this sentence.
I took the liberty of changing the photos around, there were some issues at my screen resolution. Also, pixel sizes should not be specified unless you absolutely need to display an image larger than the largest user preferences (300px), or for some other good reason (such as is necessary in infoboxes). No offense, but there are way too many problems with this article to address in one sitting. I'm sure the rest of the article has similar issues, but I will take a look at the rest of it later. For the sake of my sanity, please read WP:MOS and User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a for some helpful advice. Meanwhile, use these tips to improve the rest of it, if you can, and I will check back later. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 08:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you either forgot some of the issues or someone reverted them. If I find any more issues that I can't fix myself I will bring them up here. I know most of this stuff I could just change myself but I like to bring them to your attention so you have the opportunity to learn what makes a great article. This is a hefty article which is probably why nobody else has bothered to review it! --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there was somebody vandalizing the page while I was fixing it, someone came along and reverted everything, so I lost it all, Ill have to go through the history and fix it all again...no biggie, just takes some extra time. Yes it is a large article, and difficult to review, I expected to not get a huge ammount of reviews on here (just like last time I nominated it)...so I do greatly appriciate your help! Thanks again :D Stu pendousmat (talk) 22:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Military "The garrison also houses the 37 Canadian Brigade Group Headquarters" should this be 37th?
I beleve this is the last issue I found. I'll have to give it another read just to be sure, but so far I think the prose has been improved. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 23:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a French/alternate version of the name "Moncton"? Also would be helpful to provide Help:Pronunciation using Template:IPA/doc. I would do this myself but I have no idea how the name is pronounced.
No Moncton is the same in French, in the infobox it says "City of Moncton, Ville de Moncton" as thats the only difference. I dont know how to do those pronunciation things...the name is pronunced like this: Monk (like a holy man) and then its like saying Ton (like a measure of weight) fast...so it almost sounds like the number Ten. If you can figure that out haha...its the same as the US cities called Monckton we just lost the K by accident. (all the cities are named after Robert Monkton) Stu pendousmat (talk) 22:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any more Moncton-related articles (which are not already wikilinked in the main text) that can be added to a "see also" section? Such as HMCS Moncton?
Probably not. "See also" sections are not required, although they can be helpful. I think in this case all the appropriate links are already in the article and thats good enough. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 07:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Was going to leave it at comments, but have to make it an Oppose without even a really detailed read: — Circeus 05:05, May 12, 2008 — continues after insertion below
The "architecture" section is nothing but "tallest buildings in Moncton". What are its landmarks? What about its urban planning? What architectural styles are typical of older buildings or tied to historical events? What are the city's main neighborhoods? etc. etc.
Moncton doesnt have any named neighbourhoods besides a few local names, like "west end" just because its on the west side of town...and Ive searched to see if there is a list anywhere and there is not. As far as landmarks there arent really any "landmark" buildings that I know of...besides two really old buildings, that are only "landmarks" because they are super old...besides that there isnt really any famous or signifigant buildings, thats why the section is mainly about the most prominent buildings in the cities skyline, its far from a list of tallest buildings, if you want to see what that looks like go here: List of tallest buildings in Moncton. The issue here is that Moncton is a fairly modern city, it only becan to develop a lot during the mid to late 20th century...so the few old buildings in the city arent really that amazing.
In that case, I'd drop the entire section (a list of tallest building does not an "architecture" section make), move "list of tallest buildings" to "see also", if you really want to keep a link, and integrate "city park" into the preceding geography section. Circeus (talk) 02:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is serious red link fear here. Red links are not bad, they are essential to a wiki to indicate articles that ought to exist. I added one link for the city of Coverdale, New Brunswick that was a ridiculous omission amongst a number of existing articles, and other examples are easy to find, verging on undue weight: all Anglophones high school are linked, but the Francophone ones were conspicuously delinked, implying that articles are not even worth writing, see also under "Media".
I call it "fear" because such an absolute absence of them in an article that long can only mean that they have systematically removed at some point. 06:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Several short paragraph or sections ("health facilities", "transportation"), and prose could be improved in quite a few places.
Health facilities is large enough to describe the two hospitals in Moncton I feel, prose was just improoved, should I take the article to the copyedit place so they can do more? Cause Im no good at copyediting really.
One-paragrapoh sections: "tidal bore" (is that worthy of an entire section? I think a briefs mention when describing theriver is enough, keep the lengthy stuff for the river article), "Nearby natural features" (wouldn't that do better a tourism section?), "railways" and "highways". One-sentence paragraphs in "architecture", "urban parks", "economy" and "Health facilities". Over halfhave 2-sentence paragraphs thatcould be easily combinedtogether or to other paragraphs. Circeus (talk) 02:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
General doublecheck to avoid other goofs like this one might be a good idea.
The gallery is really not necessary. The images are not that good or showing important features, and if they were, they could replace other, less good images in the article.
To be honest, I added the image gallery after removing less-than-relevant images from the main article. Therefore, I agree that they are unnecessary. But a simple link to a Commons gallery will fix this problem. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 05:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing: The intro feels unbalanced. It's possibly just me,but it seems to concentrate a bit too much on the city's economic recovery. I'll freely admit I'm not very good at intro-writing myself, but I'd think it could be improved a bit.
I think it would help readers to split the History section into parts with subheadings.
We used to have it like that but when it was put through GA we reached a concensus that it was too bulky looking...see New York City (FA) for reference.
Am I correct that Acadians from this region ended up in Louisiana, making them Cajuns? Do you think it's worth it to mention that, even briefly?
I dont think this is something very notable to the article, I believe that would be covered in the "history of the acadians" article of the article covering the deportation, which is wikilinked...at any rate I would never find a source stating that information. Stu pendousmat (talk) 20:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not nuts about the list format in the Architecture section, and I think you could connect the paragraphs in Urban parks.
I think you could connect a lot of these small paragraphs in Economy with some work on segues between them. Actually, anywhere there are small paragraphs, please consider connecting them with larger ones. The article reads much more smoothly that way.
In Arts & Culture, I'd like to see if there are specialties with the theaters and museums. Because - clearly something unique should be shown at a theater named Live Bait Theatre (sounds like the back of a bait shop), and I would like to know if the museums and galleries focus on any particular style of art or exhibition.
Is it only my perception that the importance and size of Canadian cities should be explained in the number of Tim Horton's within them? Ok, maybe just me...
Funny that you mention that, little known fact about Moncton, the city actually has 33 Tims locations...the most Tim Hortons per capita of any city! haha...we love our coffee. Stu pendousmat (talk) 21:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also not crazy about the list in Entertainment and shopping.
Is sq ft a measurement commonly used in Canada? Is there a reason why most of the article features metric measurements, then sq ft is used in the Entertainment section?
Generally, I think the prose is bare and too basic now for a featured article. I'm not sure how to explain this, but basic prose reminds me of getting up in the morning sore and stove up, while after you've got all the kinks and pops out and have stretched out a bit, it flows better. Keep stretching it. Connect your paragraphs better, and include topic sentences at the beginning of sections that the information within the section will support. Short paragraphs make the reader jump from one subject to the next. Having them too often makes the article read as if it's ADD. This may be difficult to do in a mid-size city, but try to hammer away at this.
Comment How do you know this is comprehensive? For someone with such a long and successful musical career as well as involvement in politics, it is hard to believe that this is all that can be said. Mangostar (talk) 23:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In all the searching I have done for references (which, sadly, does not seem to have turned up any books), I've found quite a few hits and quite a few less reliable ones, plus the fact that there is not even clear consensus among the sources as to such a rudimentary piece of info as Gil's birth date (ended up going with the one on his website). The sources from sites with reliable people behind them, as well as those that reference other published information, have turned up the content in the article so far. However, I will do some more looking, and thanks for the comment. --Kakofonous (talk) 23:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but there are plenty of English-language sources on Brazilian popular culture and politics from the 1960s to the present day. All of them will cover Gil to some extent. These 727 hits on Google books are just an initial indication of that fact. I'm bewildered at the notion that you have not been able to turn up any books. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is, to me, an example of the proper path an article should take to FAC. It had a substantive peer review where issues were raised and resolved. It has now been stable for at least a month. Any issues I found were resolved in peer review. Speaking to Mangostar's point above: I had a similar concern, initially, about comprehensiveness so I did some research. I did not find anything substantial past what Kakofonous found. There may be additional sources in Portuguese but that is not within the scope of this project. --Laser brain(talk)02:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there still an issue with this site, or did you forget to strike?
Just because it cites it sources doesn't mean it necessarily is reliable. Who is behind the site? Who is the author? Are they noted in the field of history/biography/etc? If it cites its sources why not just cite those sources direct? Ealdgyth - Talk13:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Site in itself is not reliable, but the page cited is an interview with Gilberto Gil, giving a representation of his personal opinion.
Alternatively, if the site is not considered to be one that presents interviews reliably, I could remove the statement cited by this source. --Kakofonous (talk) 04:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ideally, it would be found somewhere more reliable. It's an on the fence site in terms of reliablity to me, It's not particularly contentious material however. Ealdgyth - Talk13:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. All the references are online, which I think is unacceptable for a figure of this stature. See the list of books published on him here. And I recognize that there are almost all in Portuguese, but there are also innumerable starting points for English language research. You could start here. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Granted, it was a relatively small library, but what they had was even less than I expected. Searched all the authors you mentioned, plus the interview book; Crook is on order for inter-library loan, as is Tropical Truth: A Story of Music and Revolution in Brazil by Caetano Veloso, the interview book was not available, as were the others. The books on loan are expected to arrive in a week to ten days. However, I may be able to access Encyclopedia Africana, which Google Books said had quite a few mentions of Gil, sometime sooner. Stay tuned. --Kakofonous (talk) 19:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All it gives me is a thing saying "this part of the book is not available", and it turns out I was wrong about being able to access that book somewhere else. However, I did end up ordering some excellent resources online, and am in the process of adding info from them. --Kakofonous (talk) 22:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of work is going into this right now, including the addition of much better sources (though I've added an inline citation specifically about the note regarding the prison experience; and I kind of doubt that all the citations from Wald are from the same three pages). I'm withdrawing my "oppose" for now. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
My only thought: why is the Early years section so short? It covers the first 21 years of his life - but it spans one very short paragraph. — Wackymacs (talk) 12:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This was the information available with the resources available. Hopefully the library visit I will be making soon will turn up some more information. --Kakofonous (talk) 12:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"He began his performance career as a bossa nova musician, but soon began writing songs that reflected a new focus on political awareness and social activism."—"and soon began", since it contradicts nothing?
"The two moved to London in the late 1960s after being instructed to leave the country of Brazil."—Remove the last two words; they're in the background.
"However" better at the start of the sentence.
"He also settled on guitar"—Too many "alsos". This one could go. Weed out a few others throughout.
You can probably dispense with "(English: ... " for the translations—what they are is obvious.
Have taken care of these comments to the best of my ability and done some more massaging in areas you didn't specifically mention. --Kakofonous (talk) 19:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Moni3
I found it an interesting article, and engaging in light of the fact that I know squat about Brazilian music or culture. But, as is the case with someone completely new to your topic, I have some questions.
Can you provide brief descriptions of what makes the types of Brazilian music Gil popularized unique? Such as instruments used, beat, lyrics, etc?
What do you feel is missing? There are quite a few description of his style in the "Musical style" section.
It's not clear to me what Gil was doing that was so threatening to warrant his arrest.
Added some info—there really is no clear explanation, as the arrest was not based on a crime, rather that his and other tropicalistas' actions were not pleasing to the dictatorship. I have added some explanations that have been used.
Is there nothing more on Gil's personal life than his marijuana use? He's a public figure, so there should be material printed about his family life, no?
Shockingly little has been written about his personal life (IMDB has more than any other source, but it's not reliable), but I've added some.
With a section on Legacy so short, it implies he doesn't have much of a legacy. In fact, the material in that section is about music style. Would you consider connecting it to the section above, or expanding it to provide examples of other musicians he has influenced, awards won, etc? --Moni3 (talk) 16:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What separates forro, baião, and samba, for example? I'm not looking for a comparative sentence but it would be helpful and interesting to read something like He was influenced by the sounds of XXX in northeast Brazilian forró music, where XXX is a particular instrument or beat. What about altering the sentence in Musical style to Gil performed primarily in a blend of traditional Brazilian styles, such as using XXX from baião and XXX from samba.
The explanation about Gil's arrest is clearer, thank you. You might want to say Tepel and Steward are historians or writers. I though Tepel was a government official 'til I looked at the source. --Moni3 (talk) 19:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For the most part in the references where his stylistic influences are mentioned there is nothing specific about what he drew from each style. I was able to provide a little context for baião and samba, however. --Kakofonous (talk) 21:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet. Thanks for pinging me. I see lots that I don't like, at random.
MOS breach: Gil says that his mother was his "chief supporter;" she bought him ... (see "logical punctuation").
"He was influenced by northeast Brazilian forró music, but also listened to international stars such as ..." Why is listening to intern. stars somehow at odds with the influence of forro? When fixed, will "also" be required?
WAY too overcited. Every sentence has a number-clutter at the end. Please ration by removing successive repeats, where readers usually accept that once a citation appears once (or even twice) in a paragraph, it can and typically does have wider ambit than merely a single statement. It's cumbersome as is.
"became the series's musical director"—ouch.
No, these random catches indicate that you need to collaborate with a copy-editor who is into the field: research related FAs and other articles, locating word-nerds through the edit history/edit summaries. Building collaborations is at the heart of the WP experience. Not good enough yet. TONY(talk)08:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I have to agree with Tony, I'm afraid. This article is very promising, and Kakofonous is doing sterling work on researching and expanding it. But really it's too soon for it to come to FAC. It takes time to figure out how to integrate new material, and make the prose flow. In fact, I'd recommend that Kakofonous withdraw the article's candidacy. I should also say that I'm prepared to help, at least intermittently, with the article in the meantime, in preparation for a subsequent FAC attempt in the future. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Strong oppose, basic attention to FA criteria has not been paid. A lot of work has obviously been done on the article, but suggest working with an experience FA writer to bring it up to standards. --Laser brain(talk)02:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose - *Sigh* This was peer reviewed by me, and I left a long list of things to do at the PR page, but the editor just ignored it all...and now it pops up on FAC. What a waste of time and effort. See Wikipedia:Peer review/Gardens of Versailles/archive1, then get it peer reviewed again, then get it on WP:GA, and then come back here. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits)06:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely not a waste of time. You left a great, detailed review and anyone wishing to improve the article can use that to do so. Detailed reviews are very valuable. It's not your fault someone jumped the gun and nominated here. - TaxmanTalk15:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: first three images in the article have problems (as articulated below). I've not done a full check in light of the serious and, frankly, obvious other issues already indicated.
Image:Vue à vol d’oiseau des jardins de Versailles.jpg - source links directly to the image (not a page on which it is used). How can we verify copyright status? If author is anonymous, why is PD being claimed based on the life of the author?
Oppose Introduction is too short. Too many images which are relevant but clutter up the page, I'm not sure how we deal with articles discussing so many works of art but it doesn't look right to me. Some images are left-aligned under headings. "Esthetic" is misspelled. But most importantly.... lack of citations and an apparent dis-interest in taking advantage of PR which could've easily fixed these problems. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
As per Laser Brain below, I'm concerned about the use of the developer DVD. While using it for facts isn't an issue, the usage seems somewhat slanted and NPOV; for example, "Co-operative play was significantly enhanced with friendly non-player characters (NPC), most notably with the character of Alyx Vance; her AI was specifically designed for co-op play in Episode One so she would complement the player's abilities." - it all kind of reads like an advert.
I have tried to trim down the more POV stuff, but a lot of also states "the developer said" to show that this was stated by them. GaryKing(talk)19:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reception: weighted fine, but I was wondering if you could dig up more reviews to pad out the section more (or just make more with what you have.)
Oppose, I spotted quite a few basic issues at a glance, indicating that much more work is needed before this is ready for closer examination. Suggest a general peer review and copyedit. A crucial point that has eluded a lot of video game candidates is that a non-video game person needs to help identify and weed out "game guide" language.
The fair use rationale is not properly completed for Image:Image-HL2EP1cover.jpg (not to mention it has "Image" in its filename). Please use {{Non-free use rationale}} to get the required elements.
The lead is disjointed and overly-devoted to explaining how Episode One fits in with various other packages and installations. Largely irrelevant to the general readership. It suffices to state where this falls in the progression of releases and move on to other things.
Too much "As with Half Life 2..." type language. Some basic context is okay but this needs to be fully comprehensive and understandable as its own article. Readers should not have to visit other Half Life articles to understand this one.
Jargon abound (ex. "... primarily its high dynamic range rendering capabilities and the upgraded facial animation system."; "port"; the lead will immediately lose a non-gamer)
Problems with reliable sources - what makes http://www.gamerevolution.com reliable? It appears to be user-submitted reviews that definitely cannot be used as sources.
Significant reliance on primary and non-neutral sources, such as the DVD, official web sites, and press releases.
The prose is quite rough and needs a thorough copyedit. For example, "The episode takes place immediately after the end of Half-Life 2..." (extra words); "As a direct continuation of Half-Life 2, no significant changes to the gameplay were made." (no apparent subject). --Laser brain(talk)03:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's always nice to see that you are on top of things, Laser brain :) I will address these concerns along with the ones at Twilight Princess this week; I've been trying to stay away from FAC this weekend. GaryKing(talk)03:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I will go through the article again on my next pass through the FAC list; in the mean time, please consider honoring my request for a copyedit by a non-gamer. --Laser brain(talk)20:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do so but I can't guarantee that anyone will act on it because I've asked for copyedits at least once a day from multiple editors for different articles. GaryKing(talk)20:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We're running the risk of Sandy moving us to the Talk page, but I'll just say therein lies the reason not to have multiple articles up for review at once. --Laser brain(talk)20:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They're not mine; I'm co-noming them. I'm not the primary contributor of the articles, but I am willing to help out with them. GaryKing(talk)20:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gary King, Qjuad has not returned to this article or the FAC since the nomination, you have at least four nominations running, each one of your nominations are taking enormous FAC resources, and FAC is not peer review. Please choose two FACs to withdraw. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I intend to give this FAC a thorough look come the weekend - unfortunately I am unable to take on the comments and suggested changes until then. Qjuad (talk) 11:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:FAC instructions, second paragraph: "Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make an effort to address objections promptly." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The artificial intelligence (AI) for Alyx Vance..." - who's Alyx Vance? After reading the lead I thought she was a playable character, so you might want to take a look at clarifying there, and at introducing her character here.
I have specified that she is computer-controlled in the lead. I think the word 'companion' should communicate her role in the game; there is no need to use a lengthy introduction for her, at least until Setting. GaryKing(talk)02:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In all of the Storyline refs, Valve Corporation is named and linked twice...is there any particular reason for this?
Incidentally, characters are referred to by first name in prose, but by surname in references...consistency is your friend.
That's a good point; the reason for some of this is the last names for some of the characters are the same. The first name was used when the last name would be ambiguous. I'm not quite sure what should be done in this case? GaryKing(talk)02:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Dr. Kleiner appears..." - last time you referred to him as "Isaac Kleiner", again consistency is good and this section could do with a good once-over.
Maybe it's just me, but of late I've only been seeing really short reception sections...I really do prefer to see at least a paragraph on each general area of critique (gameplay/graphics/sound/value/multiplayer (if appropriate)).
I'll see what else I can find, but this game is more of an expansion pack than a full-fledged game, so it hasn't gotten as much attention as other games have.
I've done quite a bit of work on this article, and I think that it provides a nice, well sourced, comprehensive discussion of the Acid2 test. I hope that it will be selected as a featured article and I welcome suggestions on how to improve it further. —Remember the dot(talk)00:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
"versions these browsers are expected" - +'of'
I think the non-compliant applications section focuses too much on IE in comparison the amount of time spent discussing Gecko-based browsers. In fact there is almost no mention in the prose sections of the article of Firefox, Opera, etc.
"Lie challenged Microsoft to design Internet Explorer 7, then in development, to pass the test." I think that should probably be rephrased to something like 'challenged Microsoft to pass with the test with their under-developement Internet Explorer 7', unless he actually did challenge them to write a new version of IE that they hadn't already been planning to make anyway
The grammar is fixed. There are two reasons why IE gets so much coverage. First, the test was originally designed with Internet Explorer's pitiful standards support in mind. Second, Internet Explorer 8 passes the test...sort of. It takes extra space to explain the "sort of". If Microsoft decides to make IE8 pass properly for the final release, then this article's prose will be cut down quite a bit. —Remember the dot(talk)00:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As a web developer who is familiar with the test suite, there isn't much else to add, although I can sympathize with those who look at the article and only see a bunch of stubby paragraphs, lists, and big tables. GaryKing(talk)21:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First up, I don't have an issue with it being "full of lists" or whatever. Rtd, I suggest you raise this at WT:FAC if you are unsure.
re. the reliable source issues above, the SEO FAC is a good read.
"It was developed in the spirit of the Acid1 test, a relatively narrow test of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) compliance." - perhaps move "the" and "test" on either side of Acid1; considering the name and the subsequent use of "test" it's fairly obvious what Acid1 is.
Because I wanted all the screenshots for all the browsers to be the same size, and the easiest way to do that is to change the screen resolution to 800x600 (the smallest video resolution that I could use without going through a significant amount of trouble) and set the browser to full screen. —Remember the dot(talk)23:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Changing font sizes, zoom level, applying user stylesheets, etc." - "etc." isn't really encyclopediac...if the list of ways to break the test is too length, just say "Actions such as changing font sizes..."
"will not display an object element's content or its fallback content" - the wiktionary link seems irrelevant here (click it; nothing about computing).
It does explain that fallback means "A backup plan or contingency strategy; an alternative which can be used if something goes wrong with the main plan; a recourse." I don't think that the word "fallback" is widely used, so a link to a dictionary definition seemed like a good idea. —Remember the dot(talk)23:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"However, the prerelease version of Gecko 1.9 passes the test, and so future versions of these browsers are expected to pass the test." - could this do without the repeated use of "test"...reads poorly
Comment. Quite a few aspects of the subject are not addressed, or only addressed briefly. The lists in "Overview" and "Passing conditions" should be written as prose and explained. What does "CSS generated content" or "hovering effects" mean? The average reader needs an explanation. This should also have more info about how the test was developed and how it is performed. How accepted is it in the industry? A gallery is usually a sign of an article in development. Some images could be merged with the non-compliant applications section. Gimmetrow19:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestions. Please go ahead and help implement them if you'd like, as I don't think I'll have enough time to work on them right away. —Remember the dot(talk)23:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The gallery is there to illustrate just how poorly various browsers perform, and only major releases of browsers that were available when Acid2 was released or afterwards are included. A potentially larger gallery is available at Commons:Acid2. The images were originally included as thumbnails down the side of the article, but this was rather ugly and a side-by-side comparison using the <gallery> tag is much nicer-looking. —Remember the dot(talk)23:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Re:lists/charts -- in my view, this is not a strong objection unless you can explain why the information would better be presented as prose. For instance, in this article, the last large table and the list of compliant browsers look like good candidates for the type of presentation they currently use. Christopher Parham(talk)22:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I originally nominated this article for FA a few weeks back, but it was failed. It has since gone through a thorough peer review, meaning it has gone from this to this (see diff). I am confident, with the work that has already taken place on the article that it meets the FA criteria currently in place. Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 16:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I participated in the peer review, and my comments on the sources as well as the responses from the editors of the article are located there. Interested reviewers can look there for information, as I'm on the road. Ealdgyth - Talk04:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ealdgyth's questions about reliable sources can be found on the peer review (copied over because she's on the road):
The ChicaneF1.com website this morning went dead (literally!) but has since come back on. In any case, I have removed most of the references from that website, and replaced them with more reliable sources from the Autocourse annual. One or two references remain, but this is not a big problem as it was earlier. D.M.N. (talk) 18:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All references removed from that website. A lot of info on that site was incomplete, so it looks like a unreliable source. It also (on one of the pages I went onto earlier) stated "This is incomplete... feel free to add information." D.M.N. (talk) 18:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I personally felt this was reliable, but seeing as my "explaining skills" are not up to scratch, I've removed the vast majority of these references. D.M.N. (talk) 18:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Note: The removals do not mean a lot of information is unsourced. A lot of the sources contained timing details of different pratice sessions etc. This can be easily verified from the Autocourse annual. Autocourse is a well known publisher of Formula One annuals, and I believe that have been publishing them for nearly 25 years, so they are almost certainly a reliable source of information. I hope my removals help address the references issues a little. D.M.N. (talk) 18:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In my view, they are reliable. Why is this such a problem? Quote from WP:SPS:
the material used is relevant to their notability - Yep.
it is not contentious - Not contentious, the event was seen on television in nearly 200 countries and watched by millions of people's.
it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject - Correct, all claims are to do with events related to subject.
there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it - Pretty clear for the above in my view.
the article is not based primarily on such sources - The article is based on a wide variety of sources, including Autocourse, GrandPrix.com and The Formula One Website, so it's not based primarily on SPS. D.M.N. (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SPS says Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as: the list above. In otherwords, Chicanef1 could be used in an article about Chicanef1, etc. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments A generally solid article, but a few points before I can support, fairly minor ones:
There are a few instances of tautology. I've made changes to the first paragraph of the body to show what I mean.Tony's advice is a useful guide for eliminating this.
I've tried to remove some redundancies. If there are any major redundancies still lurking, leave a note, and I'll change it to get rid of the redundancy. D.M.N. (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Scuderia Ferrari is used in the lead, Ferrari everywhere else. If my basic knowledge of F1 is correct, the team are seldom referred to in English as the former, so it is probably unnecessary to give the full name.
Hill was criticised by the British media after a poor performance in the Pacific Grand Prix, with many speculating that he was to be dropped by Williams for the 1996 season in place of either Heinz-Harald Frentzen or Gerhard Berger. - "many" is a weasel word here. In place sounds like Hill would be replacing Frentzen or Berger, not the other way around.
I've changed it to "a few speculating", or would that still be weasely? Also, I've changed "in place of" with "with". Is that better? D.M.N. (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps simply "with speculation that", assuming that the Autosport reference covers the phrase. On the second point, how about "in favour of", or ending the sentence with "taking his place"? Oldelpaso (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They both sound better. I've reworded that part to "In the week leading up to the race, Hill was criticised by the British media after a poor performance in the Pacific Grand Prix, with speculation that he was to be dropped by Williams for the 1996 season, with either Heinz-Harald Frentzen or Gerhard Berger taking his place." D.M.N. (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is. There isn't a page to explain what "outbrake" is. It basically means "braking later than the person in front". Could I reword that particular part to: "Rubens Barrichello spun in the final chicane when he attempted to brake later than team-mate Irvine". D.M.N. (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing. While I'm no expert in comma use, I think there are a number of extraneous commas. A quick sweep of comma usage by a grammarian would be of benefit. Oldelpaso (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Race: Figures shouldn't normally begin a sentence per WP:MOSNUM. 22 starts a sentence here.
Changed that sentence that starts with 22 to: "Out of the 24 cars that qualified, only 22 took the start". - D.M.N. (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"hitting the wall after the contact". Two thes here. Try "a wall".
I also agree that the article could use a comma check, as I found some problems related to that. Once these are taken care of, I will be happy to give my full support. Well-done. Giants2008 (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm satisfied with the commas now. The sources, although they have been criticized, are probably the best that can be found for a 1995 race, before the Internet became what it is today. As for a picture, again, the race took place 13 years ago, and it will be very hard to find a picture today. I gave my full support above, as I now believe the article is worthy of being featured. Giants2008 (talk) 18:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, when I say it's lacking a picture, I mean a free picture. I saw the fair-use photo of the podium ceremony. Assuming the photo's use is valid, I think it's as much as can be expected. Giants2008 (talk) 18:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've found a appropriate photo here taken from the race weekend. Could I crop it, and upload it? Failing that, there's this photo, but that would require the photo to be cropped. There are no appropriate photos on Flickr of the race weekend. There's also this photo (see sidebar) which might be appropriate. Of course with all of the above, I would have to provide a FUR. D.M.N. (talk) 20:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At the start of Report Background section "Heading into the penultimate race of the season, Michael Schumacher had already won the season's Drivers' Championship, having clinched the title at the Pacific Grand Prix in the previous race." - You assume the reader already knows who Michael Schumacher is. Clarification needed.
It doesn't need a copy-editor. It's been through 2 peer reviews (the second one had a lot of comments), had several reviews on the talkpage, and had comments left in the 1st FAC, IMO it doesn't need a copy-edit. I refuse to put it up at WP:LOCE because I'd be waiting nearly a year for it to get copy-edited. D.M.N. (talk) 12:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Do those photos actually meet FU guidelines? To me, it just looks like they're being used for illustration, as they don't depict any historically notable event (you may be able to argue the podium is, but a generic Benetton picture definitely isn't). AlexJ (talk) 15:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alex, I've done a lot of Google searches, and cannot find any images whatsoever of the race start or any other moments within the race. The Benetton image was from qualifying. D.M.N. (talk) 15:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, from experience I know just how hard it can be to find pictures of the races before digicams became prevalent. However that doesn't exempt the article from having to meet the criteria which states "Non-free images or media must satisfy the criteria for the inclusion of non-free content" - I'm not convinced that Benetton image does. AlexJ (talk) 15:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dear D.M.N., googling not the only way to obtain materials. You could for example go to a good old-fashioned city library and dig through old newspapers to find pictures, which you can scan and include in low resolution. You could also try to contact the photographer who made the picture and if you ask nicely, they might allow you to use it on Wikipedia. You could also try to dig for amateur pictures on web forums or flickr, and ask the authors for permission. The podium picture you have included is good, but its quality is too poor for a featured article in my opinion. The problem is not the low resolution, the problem are the strong jpeg compression artefacts that make it look unaesthetic. Can you find the same picture with a low resolution, but a higher compression ratio? A picture of the cars is also needed in my opinion. --Cambrasaconfab15:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Another image of the start can be found on this page. A freely-licensed image of Michael Schumacher's Benetton B195 has also recently been uploaded to the Commons, and I have posted a link to it on the article's talk page.-- Diniz(talk)19:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Diniz! I'm not going to insert them at the moment, because I want others to comment on which one they think will be better to insert. D.M.N. (talk) 20:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:
The big problem with this kind of article is to find ways of dealing elegantly with the inevitably large number of very similar formulaic statements, for example, race positions and lap times. It becomes tedious reading "XXX came first/second, with XXX points/with a time of X:XX.XXXX" umpteen times. Is there any other way of dealing with this? For example, with little tables? --ROGER DAVIEStalk03:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, I don't think there's another way to get round that, motor racing is a sport which uses a lot of forumlaic statements (top speed; fastest lap; race results). The tables at the bottom are used for the qualifying and race results, but I don't think there is a way to get round it in the main body of the article. D.M.N. (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The opening is not promising: "The race was contested over 53 laps, with Michael Schumacher winning the race for the Benetton team after starting from pole position. Mika Häkkinen finished second in a McLaren, with Johnny Herbert third in the other Benetton." Please, let's move on from this noun + gerund thing, and "with" as a connector, which are awkward and strictly speaking ungrammatical: "The race, contested over 53 laps, was won by Michael Schumacher for the Benetton team. Mika Häkkinen finished second in a McLaren, and Johnny Herbert third in the other Benetton." I see the same grammatical glitch in the next bit: "both the Williams team's cars retiring from the race".
"Jean Alesi, driving for Ferrari, started second beside Schumacher at the start of the race. However, his car moved forward before the start, and he had to serve a 10-second stop and go penalty. Alesi climbed up to second, before retiring on lap 25." Remove "at the start of the race". Logical problems then ... "However, SINCE his car HAD ..., he was forced to .... stop-and-go penalty." Bombsite.
WP:CIVIL. Calling a article I have developed a "bombsite" is quite frankly, insulting. You are the only one that has a problem, with this, no one else above has. D.M.N. (talk) 08:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done the above. I find your attitude a bit too much. Calling it a bombsite makes me pissed off thinking my hard work went for sod all. The fact you only did the lead shows you can't be bovered to review the rest of the article - maybe if you did that, and maybe if more people reviewed the article, it would be in a better state. I take it my point at WT:FAC last month never really got anywhere. D.M.N. (talk) 13:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now, please have the whole article copy-edited thoroughly; this is not at all good enough for featured status, which explicitly requires a "professional" standard of writing. Tony(talk)08:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Podium1995JapanGP.jpg needs (1) a copyright tag, per WP:NFCC#10B,(2) a verifiable source, per NFCC#10A and WP:IUP (URL is a dead link to Google cache) and (3) a relevant purpose of use, per NFCC#10C (current purpose of "show[ing] subject of this article and how the event depicted is significant to the sporting world" does not appear to be relevant. How do three drivers really depict an auto race? How do the three drivers depict, illustrate or prove that this event was important to "the sporting world"?)
Done. To address your second bullet point, it helps the reader as it shows the three drivers that finished first, second and third in the auto race. D.M.N. (talk) 17:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly. But, the driver may not be at the same team as he was in 1995, for instance a picture of Michael Schumacher in Ferrari overalls on the article would be pretty useless in my view. D.M.N. (talk) 19:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The image source is still a dead link (note, by the way, that we should be linking to the page on which the image is used, not directly to the image itself) and the purpose has not been changed. How are the flags in the "Classification" section helpful? The section's use of flags seems to be identical to the MOS page's example of what not to do. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk18:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so now just the bizarrely disconnected purpose remains (it seems copy and pasted; ideally it would explicitly describe the content of the image and its necessary function in illustrating the article). The implication of removing the flags would be that this article would be meeting MOS; other articles are not germane to this FAC. I'm not aware of an FAC ever failing for not meeting MOS, so this isn't a highly important issue. As much as we Germans love our Schumi, however, I just don't see the necessity of knowing the nationality of all these drivers (perhaps if this were an Olympic event, but...) ЭLСОВВОLДtalk16:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you have a point, but as you perfectly pointed out it's not a highly important issue. And, hey, it seems like me and you both love Schumi! (Pitty he never came back, but meh!) To do with the image, I've added a little to the description on the image page. D.M.N. (talk) 16:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nationality of the drivers in F1 is relevant - the television captions on the world feed use flags alongside the drivers name, and at the end of the race the Top 3 will have their flag raised above them on the podium and the winner gets his national anthem played. I believe the flags serve a useful purpose and are more than mere decoration. AlexJ (talk) 18:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm not happy about doing this because the article has been through a lot, but it is still not up to standard. I am disappointed to see that it has still not gone through a thorough copyedit. The play-by-play is still mystifying to a layperson which was my concern at the last FAC. Some poor advice was given at the peer review which (by no fault of the nominator) unfortunately compounded prose problems. For example, someone had you change "Williams were..." to "Williams was..." without regard to the former being proper British English. You now have inconsistency ("Benetton were..." and "Williams was...") as a result. D.M.N., it's not far away, but you simply have to poke around and get a serious, uninvolved copyeditor in there. --Laser brain(talk)02:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That particular example "Williams were", I've changed back to "Williams was" having just re-read the sentence back. Are there any particular parts which you think are not up to scratch? D.M.N. (talk) 06:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No comments after five days, so it gets archived with a 3 Support, 2 Oppose consensus. It's NOT my fault if editors don't get back to me with further comments, is it? Disgraceful. D.M.N. (talk) 09:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-nominator
I'm nominating this article for featured article because the article underwent a few rigorous reviews in the GAN process, I feel it now meets the FA criteria, it is comparable to its FA counterpart Tuck School of Business, and it will add a lot of value to the FA portfolio. Thank you for your consideration! Eustress (talk) 02:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the input but feel this should have been a comment rather than an oppose, as three of the points are not applicable and the remaining point could be easily resolved if requested. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I generally oppose at three or more concerns; arbitrary, yes, but the concerns and subsequent oppose are supported by policy. An oppose is easily stricken once concerns are resolved. Please read my comments critically and address the questions and issues posed. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk15:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for elaborating. I have addressed the issues and await further instruction or a "striking" of the opposed vote. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 15:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:BYU MSM.png doesn't appear to be appropriately tagged; typeface and simple geometric shapes are not usually copyrighted (see 3M and Microsoft as examples), per copyright office or Eltra Corp. v. Ringer decision .
I believe this is appropriately tagged because it is a logo (see source for image; Marriott School does not have a wordmark and considers this its logo). If tag still needs modification, please suggest fix or be bold and make the modification personally. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Neldontanner.jpg: how is seeing the namesake necessary (WP:NFCC#3A) to understand the building, the campus or the school itself? How does it contribute significantly to our understanding (NFCC#8)? Isn't text sufficient for us to understand he's the namesake? Wouldn't an external image of the building or an image of a plaque be superior and of more relevance (either of which would be free - NFCC#1)?
If this is really an issue, I can take a picture of the statue of Tanner at the entrance of the Marriott School. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Elcobbola, and a picture of the statute probably wouldn't work either. Photos of statues in public spaces in the United States are copyrighted, unless the statue is in the public domain for some other reason. If the statue was constructed before 1978 and you verify that it is not marked anywhere with a copyright symbol, it may be {{PD-Pre1978}}, if it was made after 1978 a photo of it is definitely nonfree. Mangostar (talk) 13:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:BusinesswithIntegrity.JPG: how is this necessary and what is its significant contribution? How does a book cover convey any meaningful information about the school's values (e.g. ethics), its authorship or the school itself? The {{Non-free book cover}} template explicitly requires use in a article discussing the book itself; the article does not appear to mention the book at all, let alone contain critical commentary. Image appears purely decorative.
Not an issue. The book is discussed in the paragraph adjacent to the picture (the book's title in italics); the book is directly related to the schools emphasis on ethics. --Eustress (talk) 15:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly agree with Elcobbola. Having this book cover does not increase readers' understanding of the school; people can understand perfectly well that a book was written (which is really only mentioned in passing in one sentence) without seeing a photo of the book. This image fails NFCC8. Mangostar (talk) 13:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not applicable. The style guide says "Photographs and other graphics should always have captions, unless they are "self-captioning" (such as reproductions of album or book covers)". Since the picture is of a book, there is no issue here. --Eustress (talk) 15:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Criterion three explicitly requires captions and does not contain consideration of "self-captioning"; again, this is a moot point, as the image lacking captions appears to fail NFCC, as noted above. The aforementioned MoS "grammar" issues (use of periods) in other captions have not been addressed. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk15:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the grammar issues (sorry, I didn't see that part of your comment before) and removed the picture in question. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 16:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose, you have a good start here, but it is far from FA standard. I recommend, at the least, a thorough peer review (which will get you exposure to more editors) and a copyedit for prose and NPOV from an uninvolved editor. Initial problems are a POV slant (the lead reads like a marketing brochure for the school, ex. "This emphasis, along with the consistent high rankings..."; "first among recruiters"), heavy reliance on primary sources (the BYU web sites), and comprehensiveness. At a glance, the History section will need a major expansion after further research is done. You have one sentence dedicated to how the school began, skipping from 1919 to 1957. --Laser brain(talk)23:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"First among recruiters" is a direct quote from a very reliable and applicable source (BusinessWeek). Other POV issues can be address if delineated. The MSM actually started in 1975, so history is scant, but I provided supplementary BYU-business information to add context. Thank you for your review. --Eustress (talk) 04:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FAC is not the proper venue for laundry lists of article problems. Peer review is the first step. I'm not satisfied with your explanation of the "first among recruiters" language or the lack of comprehensiveness. Yes BusinessWeek is a reliable source but you're not actually citing it.. you're citing a BYU press release that cites a BusinessWeek statistic. Is "first among recruiters" backed by hard data in an objective article? What does it mean? That recruiters placing more students from here than anywhere else? Or just that they like it? What are the parameters and survey methods?
I added a second supporting citation for the "first among recruiters" part—info from BusinessWeek on how they compute this particular ranking. I don't think an extant discussion about the accuracy of BusinessWeek is required or even possible in this article; it's a reliable source and readers can read more into it if they want to draw their own conclusions. Unfortunately I can't provide the direct link to the former ranking, as it is a premium service that costs money; hence why I referenced the BYU site, but I think the second source should help the case. --Eustress (talk) 02:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is much more POV language:
You mention the "ethics" thing in the lead and elsewhere.. once again, it is ultimately linked to a poll of recruiters. Recruiters have a strong conflict of interest and POV and you should not be citing anything a recruiter said.
The ethics part is supported by the #2 ethics ranking by the WSJ and the book Business with Integrity, but the wording can tweaked if needed. --Eustress (talk) 02:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"... [T]he school stresses a collaborative and teamwork-based approach to learning ..." Marketing fluff sourced to a BYU web site.
I suggest withdrawing the nomination and opening a peer review where other editors can scour the article for POV language. Anything even slightly subjective cannot be sourced to a BYU web site. Further legwork is also needed to flesh out the History. --Laser brain(talk)00:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I might be pressing my luck going back and forth with you more, but know that it's with the best intention, as I appreciate your review and truly want to make Wikipedia the best it can be—which includes getting a good article like this to FA status in a timely manner. Regarding fixing some apparent POV issues, when I conduct GAN reviews (btw, this is my first FAC process), I not only point out problems but will also help to fix minor issues to help the article along. Now, this is completely dependent upon your goodwill, but I can wait a month to go through Peer Review, or you could just reword or point out the issues (me preferring the latter). With respect to the History section, it is comparable in length and content to FAs Tuck School of Business and Cornell University (institutions founded almost a century before the MSM); I have scoured various resources for MSM history, but due to its relatively short period of history, I feel this is about it.
I have responded quickly to all concerns raised in this FAC and hope my request is reasonable. Thanks for your consideration! --Eustress (talk) 02:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The back and forth is no problem, trust me. I do understand where you're coming from but what you're requesting isn't possible at FAC. Most reviewers here, myself included, work hard just to read each article and provide comments for the ones that are "almost there". When I review an article that is "close", I will correct minor errors as I'm reading and then post a list of other fixes I'm requesting.
For the ones that need substantial work, as I believe this one does, I just post that there are major problems that need fixed before I will invest the time in a detailed review. I simply don't have the time to pull them up to standard while they're here. That's not a reviewer's job - that's the job of the collaborators and copyeditors before the article gets here. If I did that for each article that is posted here without being near FA standard, I would never get even 1/4 way through the candidate list. I hope that makes sense. --Laser brain(talk)14:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, how do I withdraw the nomination? I can't find any instructions on how to do so and don't want to mess things up. --Eustress (talk) 14:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
I did notice a large number of the sources are from the school or BYU. Primary sources need to be used with care to make sure that NPOV is maintained. Well over half the article is sourced to BYU/MSM sources, which is a LOT.
34/65 references come from MSM- or BYU-related sites...a LITTLE more than half. So, hypothetically, there might be good consensus in the article with a 50-50 relationship. If there are blatant NPOV issues, they can fixed quickly if presented. Thank you. --Eustress (talk) 04:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 51 "2007 Faculty Pioneers" is lacking a publisher
This is my first FA nomination in a while. It is modelled after every other Simpsons FA. I will address concerns as they are brought up. -- Scorpion042215:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- I added a few sources/info to the Reception section, so I won't comment "Support" - but I think this article is very well-done. One suggestion: might look better to replace the {{Cquote}} formatting in the Concept section with {{Quotebox}} instead, and align that to the right. Cirt (talk) 15:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I couldn't find anything wrong with the article (and, apparently, neither could you). It seems just as good - better, even - as another Simpsons FA I have read (The Joy of Sect). Teh Rote (talk) 18:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - this is very good, I did a copy-edit mainly removing overlinking, unnecessary cites and qualifying people once again in the body. However I still have a few little niggles:
"It originally aired on the Fox network in the United States on 28 September 1997." - stuff in the lead needs to be mentioned again in the body.
It's mentioned and sourced in the infobox.
"Although it was produced by Bill Oakley and Josh Weinstein as part of the season eight production code, it aired during the ninth season as a holdover."--ditto. "Holdover" is kinda technical; could you rephrase?
I actually don't think the "as a holdover" part is entirely necessay, so I removed it.
"At the time of production, there was little opposition, although Harry Shearer"--Who's Harry Shearer? You might want to delink, remove first name and unqualify him in the "Reaction from staff" section.
Fixed.
"being an envelope pusher." reword.
Fixed
"Keeler himself said,"
Fixed
"Warren Martyn and Adrian Wood, have defended the episode"--Are you sure they defended the episode rather than just praise it? In other words, did they acknowledge that most people hate it, and then say, "no, we think its awesome"? Then they defended it. If they just said that its awesome, then its praise.
Comment: Why are both Image:The Simpsons 4F23.png and Image:PrincipalandthePauper.JPG necessary? Both depict "key scenes", both depict "key characters" and both serve to provide identification of the episode and illustration of synopsis. WP:NFCC#3A requires minimal use, specifically "Multiple items are not used if one will suffice". Additionally, the latter is not low resolution (NFCC#3B) and the purpose appears to have been largely copy and pasted (e.g. it references a nonexistent "cover"). NFCC#10C requires language to be clear and relevant to each use.ЭLСОВВОLДtalk15:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A general question Which is correct: twentieth, or 20th? The MOS currently says to spell out numbers greater than ten, but that particular section has a disputed tag. Unless this dispute is resolved, I'd feel better just sticking with Turabian style, which recommends, "The general rule followed by many writers and by the University of Chicago Press is to spell out all numbers through one hundred . . . The general rule applies to ordinal as well as cardinal numbers" (2.29-2.30, in my book). The MLA Handbook recommends the same thing (2.5.2 in my book). Any thoughts? Zagalejo^^^16:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I haven't looked through the 99+ archives, so I'm not sure exactly what is in dispute, or how that guideline was arrived at in the first place. Are there any "real world" style guides that recommend something similar? Writing twentieth as 20th just looks wrong to me. Maybe Tony or SandyGeorgia can chime in.Zagalejo^^^17:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:MOSNUM: "In the body of an article, single-digit whole numbers (from zero to nine) are given as words; numbers of more than one digit are generally rendered as figures, and alternatively as words if they are expressed in one or two words (sixteen, eighty-four, two hundred, but 3.75, 544, 21 million)." so you CAN write 20th as twentieth. indopug (talk) 07:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why does "Guest star(s): Martin Sheen" in the infobox need citing? (I removed it myself but it was added back) Isn't it listed at the end of the episode, in the credits? Its like how you don't need to ref that Nancy Cartwright was in episode.
The references need formatting; make sure newspapers are italicised and wikilinked only on the first instance of their occurrence. Also article names need to be in "quotes". Not sure if The Simpsons The Complete Ninth Season DVD commentary for the episode "The Principal and the Pauper" is the right way to write that down; I think some of that should that should go outside italics.
I'm going to vouch for the re-addition of that pic of Skinner being shipped (er, trained) out--at low-res and with proper rationale added. I think it does significantly illustrate the plot; the idea of them "banish[ing] the real Skinner from town by tying him to a chair on a freight train car." is a crucial part of the overall absurdity of the episode. The pic illustrates how literally the reader must take that plot description. indopug (talk) 07:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it does; the point is that you had two images . The "shipping out" image is indeed superior to the current one, but, if it's restored, the image of the two standing together needs to go per NFCC#3A. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk11:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The pic with the two Skinners is excellent for the infobox because at a quick glance helps the reader get a sense of the main concept of this episode--that the Skinner we have known for all these years is a fake. Another point in its favour is that by showing the real Skinner in military garb; it also helps in the characterization of the two--that the Real one has more serious/army-like personality than the Fake, which is important to the understanding of the article. On the other hand, the railroad pic illustrates a specific--and vital-- plot point (which I've explained above, and you've allowed as acceptable reasoning). Hence both images are necessary--one for quick illustration of entire concept of the story and the other to illo an important plot point and theme (absurdity)--as they are not "fulfilling the same function". indopug (talk) 20:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come come, it's not such a big deal. Let's just please everybody and leave it the way it is at present, with the one image of the 2 Skinners in the infobox. Cirt (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was getting ready to do some work on the production section, but I realized that there is a lot of potential overlap between that section and the "Concept" subsection under "Controversy". Would it be possible to move some of the "Concept" stuff to "Production," and devote "Controversy" to the negative reaction?
I'll see what I can do.
Hmm... I think I'll fiddle with it a little more. It's kind of hard to draw the line between "Production" and "Controversy"- the long Keeler quote, for example, could fit in either section. I'm still not sure what's the best way to organize this information. Zagalejo^^^05:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The writers thought it would be a challenging episode to write, and Keeler often received difficult assignments."
I'm a bit confused by this sentence, and how it is derived from the source. Was Keeler assigned by someone else to write this episode, or did he volunteer to write it?
I just removed it.
"At the time of production, there was little opposition, although Harry Shearer, the voice of Principal Skinner, was 'a little peeved'."
It's wrong to state for a fact that "there was little opposition". That's only the way Oakley remembered it nine years later. He might have forgotten some things over the years, or might have been unaware of certain backroom grumblings.
Fixed.
Could we mention that the name "Armin Tamzarian" was basically used without the real Tamzarian's permission? I think the story behind that is kind of interesting. Zagalejo^^^21:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That part originally did go more into depth about it but someone removed it. I'll expand it a little. --
Wait, was he already a Fox lawyer when the episode was being produced? I'll have to listen to the commentar again. Zagalejo^^^05:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good idea, I haven't listened to the commentary in a while and that I no longer have that disk. And about the Keeler quote, I really think it should stay because it sums his thoughts behind the meaning of the episode very nicely. -- Scorpion042205:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Newspapers, magazines, and the like in refs need italics - noticed Boston Globe in ref 10.
First paragraph of lead has some short sentences that could merge...for instance "Principal Skinner admits that his name is actually Armin Tamzarian. He had thought that the real Skinner, a friend from the army, had died in the Vietnam War. Tamzarian decides to leave Springfield forever, only to return later in the episode." could be merged a bit...
Shouldn't the episodes in the infobox all have quotation marks around them?
In the Plot section he is sometimes referred to as Armin and sometimes as Tamzarian. It's awkward to read things like "begin to distrust Armin. Tamzarian decides that" when it's talking about the same person.
"In the original draft, there were two sentences that Keeler felt illustrated this point even better and would have made all of the difference in the episode. However, they were cut for time." - what were they?
I believe that Keeler said he didn't remember them, or something like that. I'll have to listen to the audio commentary again to be sure. Zagalejo^^^15:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When using ellipsis in quotes, be consistent. In Reception, "reviled by many of the fans ... for its dispensing with series continuity" uses ..., and "but of his hectorish Mom as well. [...] Martin Sheen steals the show" uses [...]. I suggest using [...] just because it stands out more so it is more obvious that you have purposely removed some text.
Wikilink the full dates in references, such as reference #1. Also, link the publishers in the references, even for {{cite book}} and {{cite video}}.
Both fixed. I made sure the first usage of each publisher is linked (where articles exist, in one case there was no page for a publisher). Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion042203:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Minor issue, but ref. 7 has 20th Century Fox linked when ref. 4 is the first occurrence. Also, ref. 17, 19, and 20 have publishers in bold; I'm guessing there are a few apostrophes astray there. GaryKing(talk)04:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, and I'm very concerned that this nomination is appearing here. Proper steps were not taken to prepare it and get it to proper FA status before bringing it here. First, I don't see where the other major editors (Zagalejo, Cirt, Qst) were asked if this was ready. If they were consulted, please show me where, because if their comments here are any indication, they may not have been too enthusiastic about sending it here. Second, only a nominal peer edit was done and it shows. The prose varies from rough to "correct" but not brilliant as required by criterion 1a. Additionally, the sourcing is very poor and relies mostly on primary sources. The Controversy section sourced to the DVD? Please, you need to find neutral, secondary sources for all but basic facts. This needs a lot of work. --Laser brain(talk)05:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reason the DVD commentary is used as a source in the controversy section is because a lot of it deals with their opinions (and a lot of the stuff that needs other sourcing has it, like Harry Shearer's opinions). As for notifying others, Cirt was the one that suggested the FAC, I informed Zagalejo of it several times, and Qst was told on IRC. I'll try and get some copyeditors to take a look. -- Scorpion042213:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I have made it so that only the writers' direct opinions in the controversy section are sourced by the DVD commentary. -- Scorpion042213:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In response I wasn't really a major editor really, I just added a bit of stuff to the Reception section. But yes, I was aware that the article was going to FAC and honestly I think it is of FA quality and I would "Support" right here, were I not a major contributor to the article, as per my comment, above. Cirt (talk) 05:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The DVD is a fair source (and really the only source) for the writers' own opinions about the episode. I agree with most of your comments, though. I hadn't taken a clear position until this point, but I'm gonna have to go with oppose. The problems in this article won't be solved without a lot of hard work and group discussion. It's a great topic - it's been on my to-do list for a while - but it's not FA material just yet. (For the record, I never really contributed much to the content of the article. I have the second-most edits, but most of those were just minor tweaks here and there, the bulk of which occurred during this FAC.) Zagalejo^^^05:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I am going to re-nominate this article for FA status. It previously failed due to "lack of ref" in October 2006, but this, and a number of minor issues, have been addressed since then. In addition, it has been extensively peer reviewed by staff at the LLNL, who sent me numerous references, new images, corrections, and even comments on formatting and punctuation. I believe it is safe to say, IMHO, that it is the best "single" article on the topic available anywhere, which seems like the very definition of "featured article". Maury (talk) 20:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Some of your references are incomplete. All references should have a publisher, and internet sources should have an accessdate. Try using {{cite news}}, {{cite web}}, or others if it makes it easier.-Wafulz (talk) 20:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are these actual requirements? They do not appear in the FAC, and the cite guide is certainly not specific on this. I'll happily add them if they are a requirement, but otherwise I would rather avoid too much leaf raking. Maury (talk) 21:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Citing sources#Provide full citations says that you need enough information for other editors to identify your source. At a bare minimum, this would mean giving (where possible) an author, a publisher, a title, a URL/doi, and a date/accessdate. This is especially true for any links that are on the internet - if a link dies and all we have is a title and URL, it can be very difficult to trace a mirror or a different source.-Wafulz (talk) 21:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well ok. Access dates are easy enough ("today"), but can you be more specific about the others? IE, what links do you feel do not provide enough detail? Maury (talk) 21:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, using the cite family of templates is not a requirement for an FA or for any article, but consistently and correctly formatted citations is a requirement (2c) for FAs. See WP:CITE/ES and WP:WIAFA. All sources need a title and publisher, author and publication date when available, and last access date on websources, dates should be consistently linked and formatted within citations, and the page numbering and author name convention you use should be the same across all citations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think I have met these requirements in all of the CITEs now. I went to every single one of them to make sure they worked, added any missing authors, and re-formatted them all to use the same style (authors, title, publication, date, pages, link date). If you find any counterexamples, let me know. Maury (talk) 02:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The lock icons means it is a "secure" server (https:// "s" for secure). It just means the transmissions of the page are encrypted for security reasons, usually when it involves credit card numbers, although I have no idea why it is used in these cases. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 05:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CommentI am concerned about the lack of refs in the "background" section. Generally, I like to see at least one ref per paragraph... even when the information is taken from another wikiarticle, there should be refs provided. You probably could just copy and past the applicable refs from ICF mechanism to make it easier. Also, bold type should not be included anywhere but in the lead section, unless the bold type is a redirect to that section of the article... try using italics for emphasis. Another issue, using italics and quotes to refer to specific words is redundant... stick to one or the other (see Use–mention distinction). Also, instead of a gallery at the end of the article, try incorporating the images into the article itself. There are few images as it is, so condensing them all into a gallery just exacerbates the problem. Otherwise, a good read which I would be glad to support. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 05:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, perhaps I don't understand the bolding. I was under the impression that it should be used on any term that is integral to the article. IE, if talking about a car one would speak of the wheels. Is this not the case? I'll add refs to the other section, I don't believe it needs them but I'm getting tired of everyone asking. Maury (talk) 11:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well if anyone really feels that the single instance of "extra" bolding, which is a proper name BTW and very very much in keeping with common practice, really really requires un-bolding, be my guest. But really, isn't anyone going to comment on the content of the article? Not one vote pro or con yet? Maury (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually common practice is not have bolding anywhere but in the lead, and the few exceptions stated at WP:BOLD. My statement wasn't completely correct, although I was correct by saying these items should not be in bold. I'm also not sure if the simultaneous use of italics and quotes are necessary, but I wont press the issue, no big deal. My remaining concerns...
Introduction is too short. It should adequately summarize the article, and not contain any information that isn't already in the article itself. Refs are normally not necessary as the information should be redundant. Read WP:LEAD for more info.
Image galleries are discouraged unless necessary. Try incorporating the images into the article, there are few images in the article and they are all grouped in the gallery, it would look better if you spread them around the article and perhaps add them adjacent to relevant text if possible. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Images for more info.
Units of measure unfamiliar to the average reader should be wikilinked on the first instance, like picoseconds and megajoules.
Could use a more thorough copyedit for prose. Phrases such as "far and away" (just "far" will do) and "in order to" (just "to" will do) are unnecessary and redundant. See User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_1a#Misplaced_formality for some helpful tips.
"Try incorporating the images into the article" During the last round one of the oppose points was that there were too many images in the body and it was suggested I move them to a gallery. So I did. I will look into the units issue.
Hmmm, well I haven't reviewed the history of this article, but as it is now, there are very few images. There are plenty of long stretches of text with no images at all. Everyone has a different opinion but common practice is galleries should only be a last resort for articles with an abundance of relevant images. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The aforementioned and most, if not all, other images are sourced from LLNL. The LLNL disclaimer sets forth "LLNL-authored documents including, but not limited to, articles, photographs, drawings, and other information subsisting in text, images, and/or other media, are sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy under Contract DE-AC52-07NA27344. Accordingly, the U.S. Government retains a nonexclusive, royalty-free license to publish or reproduce these documents, or allow others to do so, for U.S. Government purposes." (emphasis added) The Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory article sets forth "Until September 30, 2007 LLNL was directly managed and operated solely by the University of California". Given that the images predate 2007 (e.g. Image:Fusion microcapsule.jpg is from 2002), what is the basis for the claim that these images are the work of the federal government? The disclaimer's verbiage of the DOE merely "sponsor[ing]" and holding "nonexclusive" rights seems quite implicate that these are not federal works. Am I misunderstanding the relationship between LLNL and the DOE? ЭLСОВВОLДtalk19:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Am I misunderstanding the relationship between LLNL and the DOE? Basically yes. This has been hashed out in great detail in the past in a variety of places. Simply put, the labs all put up language like this somewhere on their pages, but it's just not true. It's like the NFL saying "all rights reserved", which is equally untrue. I should point out that the latest image was sent to me by LLNL specifically for use in the article, so for what it's worth... As to the sources, I have added them all. Maury (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide links/diffs for this hashing out? I somehow doubt LLNL's attorneys would be so quick to dismiss the truthfulness of that disclaimer. The underlying question remains unanswered: is LLNL (the author of these images) actually a federal government entity? Federal sponsorship does not a federal entity make. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk19:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try as I might I can no longer find the thread in question, it was two years ago and not directly related. However, I took the time to write to the LLNL and their lawyers are now on it.
But while I'm here, I need to express my disagreement with the claim "underlying question remains unanswered: is LLNL (the author of these images) actually a federal government entity". That's not the underlying question at all. The underlying question is whether or not the images can be used on the Wiki. All else is academic. Maury (talk) 22:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The images are being claimed as public domain on the basis that they are works of the United States Federal Government. No evidence has been provided that this is the case and, in fact, licensing at the source implicitly contradicts the claim. If LLNL indeed sent you an image to use in this article, forward to OTRS and re-license as needed (e.g. CC, GFDL, or {{PD-author}}). Licensing {{PD-USGov}} is not verifiable or supported. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk22:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just wait. I am in contact with LLNL and we are trying to get the matter resolved. They're lawyers, I assume this will not be immediate. Maury (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
UPDATE:
"We are most definitely a US Government website. Just check the URL for the .gov suffix. At the bottom of each page, you see the following text: Operated by Lawrence Livermore National Security, LLC, for the Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration"
This statement was sent to me by my primary contact at LLNL. Do you require more, or does this satisfy you? Maury (talk) 16:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add more anyway: "The rule I learned long ago from our legal staff when I was a TV news reporter is that anything on a US Government website is public domain when used in a news context. And certainly, an article on Wikipedia qualifies in that regard." Same person, employee of LLNL, completely credible, primary contact for this project. Maury (talk) 16:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Another update: Ok, well now I've had another e-mail from LLNL that states the exact opposite! I do consider this one to be less authoritative though, it's the "person that answers e-mail" sent to the lab, whereas the quotes above are from a primary source in the NIF project itself. I think it's safe to say, sadly, that it's still up in the air. There's more than a little irony here: does anyone else see the potentially amusing side of this given that they make nuclear bombs?
BTW, is there any reason these can't be Free Use? Both of the people in question have stated they are usable under those conditions. I'd rather not use this, but I think the article really suffers without the images. Maury (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the irony is that copyrights and licensing are more complex than nuclear physics. Physics was my Nebenfach (don't know the English equivalent) as an undergrad, and I find myself dearly missing laws that aren't open to interpretation, but I digress. The issue isn't really with the images themselves (i.e. as compilations of pixels). The concern, rather, is only that Wikipedia - and especially featured articles - shouldn't be representing images as being in the public domain without at least a preponderance of evidence to support the claim.
Here's the problem with the email from the more credible contact: "We are most definitely a US Government website" doesn't help us, as the statement we really need from them is "we are most definitely a US federal government entity". The .gov suffix is troublesome, as it indicates only a host, not an author (z.B. university students get .edu space, but the material they post thereon isn't necessarily authored by the university. More pertinently, U.S. senators get .gov pages on which they may, similarly, post material not necessarily authored by the federal government). All that needs to be established is that the author of the images (LLNL) is a federal government entity. If the contact could confirm this, that would resolve the issue.
I suspect the “rule” they quote to be a misunderstanding of Fair Use law. Copyrighted images may indeed be used for educational purposes (such as news) without violating copyright, but that is distinct from entering public domain (an image cannot be public domain for one use and protected for “other” uses – once PD, always PD).
OTRS wouldbe useful if your contact has authority to speak for LLNL. Then they, as the “author” could state/confirm that they release the images to the public domain (or GFDL, CC, etc) and the licenses could be updated accordingly. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk15:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is unlikely he is in a position to do so. Having been through this process before with UCalBerk and Argonne, I can say without too much hesitation that it is unlikely there is anyone in the DoE or LLNL that will go on record. We have no heard back from the lawyers though, so I think we should give that another day or so.
Strong Oppose, it is a good start but there are too many immediate issues to warrant close examination for FA status right now. Most of them have existed since the article lost GA status. I will list the major issues:
The diagrams are poorly-used. Rather than attempting to describe the diagram in the caption (On left is this.. this is shown in blue..) You need to add call-outs and make it a useful diagram. I note this has been an issue since last year.
The lead is entirely inadequate. I see this was a concern that even got the article de-listed at GA, and it has not been addressed.
The prose is unpolished and need a serious copyedit. Problems are easily-spotted, even in the scant lead: "... NIF is five years behind schedule and almost four times over budget."
MoS problems (ex: 500 terawatt should be hyphenated or use a non-breaking space)
Well these are all new to me. The only thing I recall about the captions was that they were too long, when I asked for ways to improve them I received no concrete response. The prose example you give I don't understand, perhaps I'm just dumb but it reads fine to me. I have re-written every single reference, if you have specific examples of "malformed or incorrect" ones I'll happily fix them. Maury (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There are various MOS issues, the prose ranges from non-encyclopedic to overly-jargony, and there are still serious citation issues. I think the article shows promise in its comprehensiveness, but it needs a great deal of work still to be ready for FA.
This needs to have an encyclopedic tone. Some phrasing is not up to that standard (for example: "NIF is far and away the largest...", "The basic idea behind any ")
"Construction of the NIF is currently estimated to be completed in 2009 " - replace currently with a concrete date as we don't know when this estimate was made
I concur with the other reviewers - the lead needs to be expanded to more adequately summarize the article
What does this mean "which are amplified 4-each'"
This claim must have a citation "This number is far and away beyond the number and size of beams of any preceding ICF laser." (and it needs to be rewritten)
Need a citation for "Improvements to the design since then have allowed them to surpass their initial design "
"According to LLN" - Who/What is LLNL? I don't think that has been defined in the article body before it is used
Note, although this is marked fixed below, it doesn't appear to have changed.
Is there a cite for this? "Given the time scale of a few billionths of a second, the power is correspondingly very high (500 terawatts)."
Need a citation for "The conversion process is about 50% efficient, reducing delivered energy to a nominal 1.8 MJ (500 terawatts)."
I didn't completely follow a lot of what is in the laser section. I am not that familiar with lasers and many of the terms used here - it sounded like jargon to me. I have no idea whether it will be possible to rewrite it accurately into terms a layman will understand though.
Headings shouldn't begin with "The"
Any citations for this data (especially the numbers): the case of the NIF, the large delivered power allows for the use of a much larger target; the baseline pellet design is about 2 mm in diameter, chilled to about 18 degrees above absolute zero and lined with a layer of solid deuterium-tritium (DT) fuel. The hollow interior also contains a small amount of DT gas.
I think WP:ITALICS has been violated in the article.
Need citation for "Fusion gains in this configuration are estimated to be anywhere between ten and thirty times; less than the symmetrical direct-drive approach, but obtainable with no changes to the NIF beamline layout"
Need citation for "producing results almost as good as the fully symmetric direct drive approach"
Need citation for "at the time it was just beyond the state of the art"
Need citation for "In operation, Nova was able to deliver about 20 to 30 kJ of laser energy, about half of what was initially expected, due to various nonlinear optical effects."
Need a citation for "The initial estimates from 1992 estimated construction costs around $400 million, with construction taking place from 1995 to 1999"
I also agree that the gallery should be eliminated, with the pictures spread throughout the article.
Reference 44 (Nuclear testing gear in doubt ) is not formatted properly. This reference appears to be a blog, which would fail WP:RS.
Progress report I would like to collect the comments above, although others have told me two opposes means it's basically over.
Completed
Units of measure unfamiliar to the average reader should be wikilinked on the first instance, like picoseconds and megajoules.
Phrases such as "far and away" (just "far" will do) and "in order to" (just "to" will do) are unnecessary
What does this mean "which are amplified 4-each'"
MoS problems (ex: 500 terawatt should be hyphenated or use a non-breaking space)
(for example: "NIF is far and away the largest...", "The basic idea behind any ")
According to LLN" - Who/What is LLNL?
replace currently with a concrete date
Need a citation for "Improvements to the design since then have allowed them to surpass their initial design ", Moved existing cite one line.
Need a citation for "The conversion process is about 50% efficient, reducing delivered energy to a nominal 1.8 MJ (500 terawatts)." Moved existing cite one line.
I think WP:ITALICS has been violated in the article.
Reference 44 (Nuclear testing gear in doubt ) is not formatted properly. This reference appears to be a blog, which would fail WP:RS.
Some references do not have publisher information (ref 45- New Cost and Schedule Estimates for National Ignition Facility. )
Require Clarification
Headings shouldn't begin with "The" "laser" doesn't seem right. NIF laser? Driver? Something else?
Introduction is too short. What information is missing that you think the introduction is missing? I'd like to fix this ASAP. Contrary to the second instance of this, the LEAD has undergone major edits in the near past in order to address former problems.
I didn't completely follow a lot of what is in the laser section. I am not that familiar with lasers Ok, sooooo, what do we do?
Is there a cite for this? "Given the time scale of a few billionths of a second, the power is correspondingly very high (500 terawatts)." P = E x t. I do not believe this requires a cite.
Disagree
Need citation for "Fusion gains in this configuration are estimated to be anywhere between ten and thirty times; less than the symmetrical direct-drive approach, but obtainable with no changes to the NIF beamline layout"
Need citation for "producing results almost as good as the fully symmetric direct drive approach"
Need citation for "at the time it was just beyond the state of the art"
Need citation for "In operation, Nova was able to deliver about 20 to 30 kJ of laser energy, about half of what was initially expected, due to various nonlinear optical effects."
Need a citation for "The initial estimates from 1992 estimated construction costs around $400 million, with construction taking place from 1995 to 1999"
Need citation for "producing results almost as good as the fully symmetric direct drive approach"
All of these are clearly cited in-place. The link appear before the specific sentence, but only in cases where that claim is "more important" to have the ref physically close to it. I see no need to insert the same reference multiple times in a single paragraph.
Can't satisfy everyone
I also agree that the gallery should be eliminated, with the pictures spread throughout the article.
Image galleries are discouraged unless necessary.
I have read over all relevant materials in the MOS and the links above, and simply put, the second of these statements is not true. The section on galleries clearly states there is no agreed-on policy. But if we confine ourselves to the specific case here, as I mentioned before, the gallery was introduced specifically because the former FA (or GA, I don't recall) said there were too many images in the body and they should be put in a gallery. I fear that if I change this, someone else will "strongly oppose" it for that reason. What am I to do?
This number is far and away beyond the number and size of beams of any preceding ICF laser
Above a reviewer states that there should be no references in the lead. I agree, I hate references in the lead when the explanation follows shortly - as is the case here. So if I move the HOW reference (which does state this, directly) into the LEAD, then I'm violating a different complaint.
the prose ranges from non-encyclopedic to overly-jargony
The prose is unpolished and need a serious copyedit.
I quote the very first review (as opposed to comment) from the former FA, "The prose in the article is very good. I really appreciate how the text is readable by the layman, but also contains enough information to keep people with more knowledge reading on." So again, this appears to come down to a disagreement about reviewers. What can I do to make everyone happy? When I get specific examples I change them, but I keep getting vague "needs edit", which is really not helpful at all. Is there some sort of objective measure we can apply here?
I believe this covers every remaining point above, with the exception of the licensing question, which is ongoing. If I have missed any, please add.
Please note that the previous FA nom was in October 2006, 18 months ago. There is a possibility that the article has changed, that interpretation of the criteria has gotten stricter, or that the previous reviewer wasn't great at identifying good prose. I'd recommend that you look through the list of science FAs, find a recent one that looks well-written and ask the person who wrote it to copyedit this one. (Regardless, an 18-month old FAC nom doesn't really tell you anything about community consensus or the state of the article as it is today.)
As for my comments about not understanding, I think that has a lot to do with the jargon. Removing or explaining some of that more fully will help increase the understanding of lay reviewers.
As for citations, if you are citing statistics or something that is opinion, the citation needs to go after the statement, not before. That's standard practice for inline citations; otherwise, how on earth do you know that the statement goes with that citation? If you are going to use inline citations (as is now required for FA status), please use them correctly.
I'd like to focus just on the last point to start. The citations in question (outlined above) are part of single paragraphs on a single topic. For instance, the PDD targets paragraph; there is a single reference that covers all of the points within. Perhaps I am confused as to what the problem is? Maury (talk) 17:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment While I sympathize with your plight, Karanacs brings up a good point. The last FAC was 18 months ago, standards may have changed. It is standard practice to not use galleries unless necessary. If you'll look at other nominations you will get an idea of what is the current consensus. Also, reading WP:MOS and tips listed at WP:FA? and User:Jengod/Some_common_objections_to_featured_status_and_how_to_avoid_them. BTW, I still count about 8 "in order to" phrases. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 17:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I don't mind, if you think they'll fit inline I'd much rather have that -- it's not like I like galleries! The article has grown in length (although not a huge amount) so that does seem like there's more room to play with. Maury (talk) 01:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
When using abbreviations in the footnotes, (such as LLNL) it's helfpul to do something like Lawrence Livermore National Library (LLNL) at the first usage of the abbreviation. I'd actually perfer that all abbreviations in the references were spelled out since most folks don't read them all, just pick and choose and it's harder to figure out what is meant if you have to scan up and down the references list trying to figure out what an unfamiliar abbreviation is.
Can we be consistent in the formatting of the journal references? Some of the journal names are italicised, others aren't. One or the other would help folks figure out the references a bit easier.
Current ref 31 "letter from Charles Curtis, Undersecretary of Energy" is this a published reference? WP:RS frowns on unpublished sources.
Current ref 32, I have no idea what this means. Is this a federal code reference or to something else published?
Current ref 35 "Natural Resources Defense council..." is lacking a publisher
Current ref 37 "C. W. Cranfill "Concerns about NIF..." is this a published memo? See about about unpublished sources and Wikipedia.
Current ref 48 "Science Scope, 288 (5471)..." Is this a journal article? If so, we should cite the author and title.
Current ref 54 "A. Fitzpatrick, I Oelrich "The Stockpile Stewardship..." is lacking a publisher
Sorry guys was off for most of the weekend and I'm just getting started again now. Is there anything immediate? I'll start reading the diffs... Maury (talk) 00:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, working on the above. Ok, some progress...
fixed abbrs, including S&TR, tell me if there's any others (FAS maybe?)
geez, it seems they have been undergoing some edits. I'll see if I can clean them up again.
Current ref 32 -- weird, fixed and clarified
Current ref 35 -- is there a standard for quoting a court document? Like a docket number or something? "Civil Action No. 00-2431" appears to be the call for this, and there was an amendment to it as well, although it's Abraham in that case, who took the place of Richarson.
Current ref 48 -- got it
Current ref 54 -- fixed
Current ref 37 -- this is currently outstanding. I've seen it, but I don't recall if it was journal published. It's attached to point that I'm more than willing to lose from the article if I don't find it.
I'm playing with the images to get rid of the gallery, but it looks like the only way to make it work is lose half of them. Maury (talk) 01:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still unfamiliar with the history of this article, but it seems like it could do with a rigorous Peer Review. The prose in particular needs significant work; it looks/reads like a labour of love by experts that confounds the layman. We don't want it dumbed down, but it must be accessible. Sorry to oppose, but FAC isn't the place for help with a reworking; articles here should need a tweak or perhaps a generous helping hand. This is simply too needy.
Looking at the Lead alone, I found the following issues, some of which are major problems:
I'm confused. Is this thing being built, or is it built? Lead says it's under construction, but then deals with how it works in present tense, instead of future.
If no-one's ever been able to get to ignition, it's a bit presumptuous to assume this will succeed. Tone down "NIF uses powerful lasers to heat and compress a small amount of hydrogen fuel to the point where nuclear fusion reactions take place." to allow for the possibility it won't ever work
Typo - "budgetted"
I can't work out when the construction began. Note the date in the Lead.
"Progress since the mid-2000s has been much smoother." Smoother than what?
The caption is massive... and very confusing. Could the room be labelled? I couldn't see anything purple. There's two different elements that have been coloured blue, so I don't know which is which. Can't see a silver colour either. Why not pick distinctive colours and judiciously apply some labels?
Expand slightly the controversy over the potential nuclear weapons usage.
If you can continue to improve the article along the suggestions implemented here, please do so. It's not far off, so it doesn't need to be closed unless you can't work on the article for a while. - TaxmanTalk17:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given the comments above it seems there is a lot more wrong than just crossing the T's. Comments like "prose in particular needs significant work" (or similar from three different reviewers) suggest that I am simply not seeing the forest for the trees. Maury (talk) 17:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can't please everybody but use the comments here to make as many improvements as you can. You may be able to satisfy enough, and if not, at least it will be in a better state before it's over. Then retrying will be easier. Don't lose sight of the fact that you have done great work. The issues raised are relatively minor in relation to the difficult work you've already done. - TaxmanTalk17:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has already been peer reviewed by User: Ashnard in a way which was similar to FA nomination. The article itself is completely cited, all images have correct fair-use rationales, and the style of writing is encyclopedic. haha169 (talk) 20:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am worried by the fact that much of the references come from a primary source (or I assume that www.smashbros.com is a primary source). Ottava Rima (talk) 21:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I don't really think that it would be an issue. If it does become an issue, we could always replace some of the references. But we'll see what happens. --haha169 (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most of them seem to be limited to the gameplay section, so they wouldn't be controversial. It is just odd to scroll down a reference section and see so many of the same in a row. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can either reference the official site or the game itself for most gameplay. I suppose you could reference a Brady Games Guide or Prima Games Guide if you really wanted to. Ealdgyth - Talk21:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bioshock's ref 56 uses Joystiq. Some of joystiq's articles are reliable because they are researched and written by site employees and editors, just like IGN and Gamespot employees and editors. We're not talking about user posts here. --haha169 (talk) 19:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
THe fact that another FA uses Joystiq isn't proof it's reliable. Is there a spot on the site that says they are a paid staff like IGN or Gamespot? Ealdgyth - Talk15:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, the sources need to be established as reliable per policy, not per another FA, not per a WikiProject, not per another editor. Please review WP:V. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you left out the first part of my sentence: "It has been my experience that Joystiq is considered reliable among members of the VG project". I didn't state in flat terms that Joystiq is reliable, just that I had noticed a favorable reputation for it. Just below, I offered to remove the reference if that was misplaced. Anyways, glad this was resolved here—just wanted to respond since I was quoted. Pagrashtak05:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's moved to 66 right now. Full ref is Wirgler, Matthew (9 October 2007). Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Mario Galaxy Playable at E for All. Advance Media Network. Retrieved on 21 October 2007.
Oh, I saw it as wii.advancmn...and then it redirected. That's a horrible reference. I think we may have to delete the sentence entirely. --haha169 (talk) 20:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Forget my previous comment. Some redirecting happened and I ended up in at a blog post. I don't know what to do with this. --haha169 (talk) 20:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not. Read the text, it says "Similarly, a representative on behalf of Nintendo of Europe on December 6, 2007 confirmed with the media that the game would not be released until after June 2008." However, this was speculation because that representative was not speaking the truth. It is part of a paragraph on issues with the release dates.--haha169 (talk) 19:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You still haven't said why this particular site is a reliable source per WP:RS. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Ealdgyth - Talk19:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. However, I'm not sure if that works, since I'm not familiar with Pro-G and Virgin Media. Ealdgyth, is that satisfactory? By the way, thanks for reverting the vandalism on my userpage. --haha169 (talk) 20:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They do have quite a lot of brands. I believe I've heard of some of them before, but I've never familiarized myself with them. Does this mean that this reference can stay, or go? --haha169 (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the strike throughs, I'm not entirely sure that having a contract with virgin media to provide content is necessarily proof of reliability. We don't know what parts of the site are given to Virgin, nor what they do with it. Also, it's usual to let the person putting for the concern strike/hide/cap their concern, here at FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk00:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed Okay, I've removed it. It was talking about a previous Europe release date, which was proved false. We have the final one now with a ref from the Nintendo site.--haha169 (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I tried. It doesn't really look like I can replace it. I could try citing the magazine where the quote is from, but I don't have Tips & Tricks. Does anyone have suggestions?--haha169 (talk) 18:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed You got me. I spent quite a long time searching, but was ultimately unable to find any mention except for forums and the like. This was the most reliable source, and I was unable to establish its reliability. Therefore, the statement is removed along with the reference. --haha169 (talk) 23:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 80 (Famitsu) is a wikipedia article. Definitely not RS.
This one looks like it's supposed to be a magazine article, but it needs to be formatted like the rest of the magazines in the article. It needs publisher, magazine title, issue, year, etc. Ealdgyth - Talk15:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I shall work on fixing those right now. (The gametrailers ref is real, because we are citing the company (Game Trailer)'s review. --haha169 (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ref 84 (nintendo power) is being used to ref "Chris Slate of Nintendo Power also awarded Brawl a perfect score in the March 2008 issue, calling it "one of the very best games that Nintendo has ever produced."" and a review score. I suspect they meant to ref to an article, but that's not what is currently there. I have no author or issue information (unless the "(Future US) (no. 226), 7 February 2008" is supposed to be the ref? If so it's not formatted like the other references. Same sort of deal for the Famitsu ref (current ref 79). Ealdgyth - Talk00:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What is there to fix? Its just wikilinking the publisher like all the other references, although a few more parameters could've been filled out. While I do question the use of goNintendo, some of those sources are listed on WP:VG/S. « ₣M₣ »21:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some other issues:
Current ref 42 "Mysteries of the subspace emissary" needs publisher and last access date.
Also, I'd like to say that leaving a politely worded note on my talk page chastising me for being "absent for such a long period of time. We need to resolve your comments quickly and move on, and it doesn't look good on a FAC to leave an unresolved issue lying there." I took yesterday afternoon off. I looked at all the FACs yesterday morning, nothing much had been resolved on this one, and I chose not to comment, letting ya'll have some time to resolve things. I'm sorry that you feel that I was gone a long time, but this is a volunteer effort and sometimes RL intrudes and folks have to take a day or two off. Ealdgyth - Talk15:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I left it politely as I could. I might have been a bit rude, and I'm sorry about that. And I know it is a volunteer effort, but I wasn't getting any help and was starting to become annoyed. Sorry about that. I just needed more comments and things to fix, and you were really the only one giving constructive criticism on this FAC. So I turned to you. I'll get working on the new developments today.--haha169 (talk) 18:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss that on the talk page, not the FAC. And I must tell you, it is shorter than some of the FAs out there, like BioShock, so will you please stop complaining? --haha169 (talk) 23:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I don't agree with his statement, this is an appropriate venue to list any concerns with the article. If Wikipedian had said something demonstratively false, such as "The article has no references" that would be inappropriate. However, this is a subjective concern and the entire purpose of the FAC process is to list those concerns and let others determine the merit and severity of any potential problems. If it's truly a non-issue, then no one will agree with Wikipedian06, and no harm will have come. Pagrashtak19:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you are stating the truth. However, he posted his comment on the FAC before even consulting the talk page, which was already having an active discussion on the issue. If you'll look, he hasn't even contributed to the discussion at all, so I was merely telling him where the discussion was. I did have poor word choice, but it is annoying to have an editor start a problem, and not contributing to the discussion. It leads us to a dead end. Plus, nobody did agree with him, and no harm did start. I think this discussion should stop, I'm not too interested in having a discussion of this subject on a FAC. --haha169 (talk) 19:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This article seems perfect so long as an edit war does not spring up. Just to be sure I am going to reread the article. This article randomly goes into periods of time when edit wars happen. We really need to watch out for this.--Smashbrosboy02:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Minor Support the article is in great shape, even if it won't fulfill criteria 1e (stability) very much for three reasons: vandalism, new sales data and awards. igordebraga≠23:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although new sales data and awards do, vandalism does not mean the article is unstable. Vandalism is added, it's reverted, the article stays the same. Epass (talk) 23:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't think we'll be getting new sales data for at least another 2 months, since that has been updated very slowly since I've been working on this article. As for awards, I doubt Brawl will be getting a notable award to put up...so... As for vandalism, it hasn't been hard hit recently (which I'm happy about). I'm more primarily concerned about edit wars, which pop up at random times, usually over petty things. Anyways, thanks for the support, albeit minor. --haha169 (talk) 00:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The references are being fixed, and there really aren't many edit wars. Aside from the recent one over GiantBomb, the last was over Dixie Kong being playable, and that was a while ago, before the game came out. The sales data won't come in until June 17; the European release date, or if the Australian date is before then. As for awards, they'd have to be something pretty notable, and if there were, a sentence is added, it doesn't really affect the stability that much. The article has well spread out images, and its section are neither to long or two short. It deserves FA. Epass (talk) 10:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A good deal of time and effort have definitely been invested into the article. I can see no pressing issues to relate, and the article has stabilized since the last dispute. If anything, I can see the only problem being minor vandalism, but that isn't nearly enough to jeopardize stability. In any case, I can think of no significant reason to oppose FA for the article. -- Comandante {Talk}20:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I wouldn't say that the remaining 2 one issues with verifiability is a big problem. They said "no significant reason", among others. I'm working on the joystiq one right now, as well. --haha169 (talk) 22:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I've only read the lead.
"As the third installment of the Super Smash Bros. series, Brawl's roster..." Misplaced modifier
Yeah, I already Googled it. I still don't understand...I see how there is a minor awkwardness there, but I'm not really sure how to fix it. I think I'll go tweaking around. --haha169 (talk) 00:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Still unclear; wordy as well. Let's break this down:
"The game's music was individually composed or rearranged by one of the 38 renowned video game composers involved in the game's soundtrack, which consists of various themes present in previously released Nintendo video games."
"The game's music was individually composed or rearranged by one of the 38..." Surely, you mean each individual track was composed by one of 38, right?
"When development of the game began in October 2005,[11] Nintendo had enlisted the help of various outside developers in an office in Tokyo exclusively for its development." Conflict between "when...began" and perfect tense. "in an office in Tokyo..." does not seem to placed correctly; it's currently implying that the office in Tokyo is where Nintendo recruited the developers.
Better, but the repetition of "development" (there's already "developers" there too) is ungainly. The tension of using the "when...began" construct and the perfect tense is still there too. BuddingJournalist00:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your concern, but I can't really find a synonym for "developers" and "developed", and i was also unable to thing of a way to rephrase the "when...began" issue, so... --haha169 (talk) 00:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I find that hard to believe. "Nintendo began developing the game in October 2005, and enlisted the help of third-party developers to work in a Tokyo office rented exclusively for Brawl." Wasn't so difficult. By the way, the "Sakurai, Masahiro. Foreword. Smashbros.com." reference does not work. BuddingJournalist01:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your right. That works. I'm sorry, I've been fixing errors on this FAC by myself, that I've been going brain dead a bit. I'll see what I can do with that reference. --haha169 (talk) 03:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure what you mean by that last one, but I'll get to work on the other three. We've been having problems with #2 already, and resulted in a minor edit war a few months back. I'll see what I can do.--haha169 (talk) 22:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:MOS#Acronyms_and_abbreviations for abbreviations. An example would be "United States (US)". Note that some of your use of abbreviations-as-adjectives is colloquial ("featuring CGI cut scenes" would be better as "featuring computer-generated cut scenes", as CGI is really computer-generated imagery, a noun.) BuddingJournalist00:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, actually, I still don't "see". Sorry for the shifting moods here. But which examples would you like abbreviated? Satoryu gave a good example as why not to abb. SSE, but I don't see anything else that needs such abbreviation. --haha169 (talk) 01:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want things abbreviated, but spelled out. An example from the lead: "CEO" -> "Chief Executive Officer (CEO)". You can lose the "(CEO)" if you don't plan on using it later. Like MOS says, this should be done on first use for all abbreviations. BuddingJournalist01:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"As the third installment of the Super Smash Bros. series, Brawl's roster" - the lead phrase is not modifying the intended subject here; see dangling modifier
"composed and/or rearranged" - aren't these mutually exclusive terms?
FixedI believe its gone now. It was recently added, and I opposed it. The editor who added it removed it since. --haha169 (talk) 22:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"the game's score, which consists of various themes present in previously released video games" - is this true? the entire score is made up of themes from prior games?
"Nintendo had enlisted the help of various outside developers to work in a rented Tokyo office exclusively for Brawl." - to work exclusively for Brawl in a rented...
"Each character has four character-specific special moves, which often have unique effects beyond damaging an opponent." - Each character has four unique moves, which often have special effects beyond damaging an opponent.
"These abilities may be performed upon destroying a Smash Ball, an item bearing the Smash Bros. logo. When the Smash Ball has been successfully broken by a character, the character can then execute a Final Smash." - these two sentences are redundant
Fixed I know, but I found myself ignorant because I couldn't find a way around it. I'll merge those two sentences. --haha169 (talk) 22:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"changing their appearances and/or capabilities." - see WP:MOS#And/or
"Screenshot of the Super Smash Bros. Brawl final character select screen." - this image caption is not a complete sentence and should not have a full stop
I've spotted a few issues in the reception section, but not too much. Do you have any specific examples left? I'm not too good with grammar. --haha169 (talk) 23:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the Reception section, most of the sources are italicized when they are mentioned in the main text, yet those same sources are not italicized in the References (examples: GameSpot, GameTrailers, Game Informer).
In the future, please respond below the reviewer's signature, rather than interspersing replies throughout their comments. I have hidden my previous comments as most of them have been addressed, with exception of the following:
Punctuation in/around quotations still needs work (example: "Edge concluded that while the Smash Bros. games have often been "derided as button-mashing," Brawl features "one of the most enduringly innovative and deep systems of any fighter."")
Logical quotation is still an issue; nearly every quotation in the 'Reception and sales' section needs ending punctuation to be moved outside quote marks.
Punctuation in image captions still needs cleanup (example: " Selection of characters in Super Smash Bros. Brawl that are available for play.")
"Each character has four unique moves, which often have unique effects beyond damaging an opponent." - You need not use my phrasing, but using 'unique' twice is weak
"Most of the individual tracks within the game were arranged by one of 38 renowned video game composers, which mainly consists of various themes present in previously released video games." - Two problems: (1) the first half can be read 'most of the tracks were arranged by the same guy'; (2) the second half reads as though it modifies 'composers'.
This now reads "The game's musical score was composed through the collaboration between 38 renowned video game composers. The soundtrack ultimately consists of various themes present in previously released video games." Neither sentence is really crystal clear: did the 38 composers actually collaborate (I got the impression they just individually composed tracks)? Are all the tracks based on preexisting video game music, or only some of them (I think I asked this question before, but didn't see an answer)?
I have not struck my oppose as I still feel this needs significant work. The plot section should be intelligible to a reader who is not already familiar with Mario games. The article still needs a thorough copyedit to fix grammar and punctuation issues beyond the examples I provided. Maralia (talk) 00:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then, I'll do it this way. How is the music sentence in the intro now? I separated it into 2 sentences as well as did a major revision. The plot was fancruft in my opinion, but I don't really know if I'm allowed to delete it. I'll bring it up in the talk page. I'll work on the rest tomorrow. Thanks for the reviews! --haha169 (talk) 03:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I also went and fixed the image caption. I see how my previous revision did absolutely nothing to address your problem. Sorry about that. --haha169 (talk) 03:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated my comments, crossing out a couple addressed issues and elaborating on some of the remaining ones. I will gladly keep plugging away with you on specific examples, but this truly needs a full copyedit. Maralia (talk) 00:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll check out the reception sections of some FA video games for ideas on how to fix the quotation marks. As for the copy-edit, do you have good copy-editor to suggest? I'm not much of a copy-editor, and I've never brought an article up to FAC before, so this is my first time here.--haha169 (talk) 04:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I really would appreciate it if you could be more specific like the editors above. I already know the article needs some work, but if you could give examples, that would be immensely helpful. --haha169 (talk) 22:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments.
"Brawl's roster of Nintendo characters expands from that of its predecessor, while also being the first in the series to feature third-party characters" - sounds choppy...I get what you're saying, but it could be worded better (I think the "while" kills it somewhat)
The setup of the lead is awkward for a VG article. Check last month's VG newsletter, IIRC Masem wrote quite a good piece about that sort of thing.
"Brawl was announced at a pre-E3 press conference by Nintendo president and Chief Executive Officer Satoru Iwata" - in which year?
"At E3 2007, Nintendo of America's president, Reggie Fils-Aime, stated that the game would be released on 3 December 2007 in the Americas." - I think only the first comma is needed
In the lead it's somtimes referred to as Brawl and sometimes by its full name...be consistent.
Actually, this issue occurs throughout.
"Mario and Kirby fighting Bowser and King Dedede." (image caption) - it's a free for all, don't imply there are teams
The SSBM FAC had plenty of issues with citation and stuff on gameplay...might want to look at it and see if there's anything relevant there for this one.
The characters can fight each other using a variety of attacks...characters have access to more powerful smash attacks" - some issues with these sentences. 1) You can attack by simply pressing a button and not touching the control stick (eg. simply pressing A or B on the GCN controller). 2) What's a smash attack and how do you get one?
"and are usually invincible" - usually implies exceptions...I'm fairly certain all the pokemon are invincible, not so sure on assist trophies?
A lot of the gameplay discussion involves statements like "as in the previous game". IMO this isn't necessary; the article discusses THIS game, not the previous ones. You can draw connenctions in cases of notable similarities/difference, but not for every case...
Smash Bros. DOJO!! referencing needs work; halfway through it changes from being the publisher (no italics) to the work (italics)...be consistent.
"SSE has a team system for the characters." - sounds clunky...for the characters - for who else??
"Masahiro Sakurai claimed that this mode..." - you don't need to wlink or use his full name every time...only use his surname subsequent times
"which transports part of the world into Subspace" --> "transporting part of the world into Subspace".
The /vast/ majority of gameplay content comes from one source (Smash Bros. Dojo)...not a huge deal, but more sourcing from gaming publications (IGN, GameSpot, you know...) would be preferred...
The Vault section is not that major a part of the game that it deserves that much discussion is it?
"such as the Metal Gear Solid-inspired Shadow Moses Island" - isn't there an article for MGS (the game)? If yes, why link to the series' article?
"Sakurai stated that these people had spent excessive amounts of time playing Super Smash Bros. Melee" - quote needs source
"we would like to launch this game on January 24th, 2008" - wlink the date
"aside from Snake.[67] The inclusion of Konami-created character Solid Snake" - probably use his full name and wlink him the first time you name him....
"Suggestions were no longer being taken..." - probably merge this with the previous paragraph
"who awarded it with a perfect score[83]," - put ref after comma
Check italics for ref publishers in reception section (especially).
"In Japan, Brawl sold over 500,000 units on launch day,[90]" - any reason why you use a French source for this? In any case, can you get one in English?
Is the Development section image necessary?
Same in the Inclusion of characters section.
Personally, I thought it was way too similar to SSBM. Agree with some of the reviewers noted, I guess. The multiplayer was good, as is always the case with a Smash Bros. game...but nothing to get massively excited over, IMO. Well, you could get excited over my comments here, I suppose. :) Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the multiple comments! Due to me being very busy today, I'll probably check these out tomorrow. A quick glance, however, shows me that I can do some really interesting fixing up with your suggestions. (P.S. love the username water) --haha169 (talk) 04:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed Things by haha169 in response to Dihydrogen Monoxide:
I fixed the Smash Bros. DOJO references, added Sakurai, Masahiro as the author of each ref tag that was lacking. --haha169 (talk) 05:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the unnecessary second comma in, "At E3 2007, Nintendo of America's president, Reggie Fils-Aime, stated..."--haha169 (talk) 23:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I feel those images are necessary to address Snake as a Third party (in inclusion of characters), but the Sonic/Mario one is confusing. Its been there for a while, but I have never questioned its location before. I suggest you ask one of the older editors such as Satoryu or Jéské. --haha169 (talk) 23:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We used the French ref because it is a little difficult to find Japanese launch day sales data. Apparently, Gamespot, IGN, and 1up didn't care about it. --haha169 (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Vault section is, aside from multi-player and solo modes, the only place where you can actually play Brawl. Therefore, I find it important to mention objects such as stickers that affect solo gamelay.--haha169 (talk) 23:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Transporting...Subspace" That quote is now fixed. I didn't really use your suggestion, but it is fixed nonetheless. --haha169 (talk) 00:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"As in the previous game" is only mentioned once, and I think it being as a reference to Melee is quite useful. --haha169 (talk) 00:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything wrong with the italics in the ref section. Edge and Nintendo Power are italicized due to them being published magazines. The rest are not because they are just websites. We do this according the the VG Reviews infobox. --haha169 (talk) 00:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reliable cite says exactly that, so there is no valid argument against the non-invincible/invincible thing. However, I could give an example: Stafy is not invincible in any way.--haha169 (talk) 04:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Brawl's roster of Nintendo characters expands from that of its predecessor, while also being the first in the series to feature third-party characters" was fixed after that massive intro revision. --haha169 (talk) 23:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot! Your new copyedit seems to have fixed quite a few extremely stupid "word flow" issues. I'll see if I can catch more of those.--haha169 (talk) 00:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. An FA nominator rarely gets much appreciation, and we take these rare supports as our reward of a job well done. However, same as I asked the above neutral, could you expand a bit than that one sentence? I would love to know what are the positives of the article we worked so hard on. --haha169 (talk) 05:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, a lot of work on prose needed. Dihydrogen Monoxide provides a great starting list above, but you really need to grab an unfamiliar and experienced copyeditor to work through the text. Issues easily spotted - these are just from the lead:
The long line of Japanese characters in the first line is extremely visually distracting. The game is sold in English-speaking countries with an official English name; the Japanese characters are not needed.
"The game's musical score was composed through the collaboration between 38 renowned video game composers." Grammar.
"The soundtrack ultimately consists of various themes present in previously released video games." What purpose is the word "ultimately" serving?
"Later that night, Masahiro Sakurai, the director of the previous two games in the Smash Bros. series, accepted the role of director for the third installment." Accepted from whom?
"... Nintendo had enlisted the help of various outside developers to work exclusively for Brawl..." They didn't work for "Brawl", they worked for Nintendo, yes?
"However, the game would later be delayed to February 10, 2008..." Grammar.
Laser, I appreciate your concerns, and they are quite similar to dihydorgen's views. However, your first concern will not be addressed unless you are able to change the Wikipedia policy. A small note on a Wikiproject which isn't even supported just simply will not do. I'll work on the others once I am done addressing Maralia's and dihydrogen's. --haha169 (talk) 22:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your prompt attention. As I said, these are just examples - you need someone who has not worked on this article to give it a fresh copyedit. --Laser brain(talk)22:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see what is wrong with the grammar here: "The game's musical score was composed through the collaboration between 38 renowned video game composers." --haha169 (talk) 00:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sentences: "Later that night, Masahiro Sakurai, the director of the previous two games in the Smash Bros. series, accepted the role of director for the third installment." and "... Nintendo had enlisted the help of various outside developers to work exclusively for Brawl..." are no longer remotely the same in the current revision, and your concerns have been fixed in the revision.--haha169 (talk) 00:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much! Any copy-editing, especially in the lead and trimming down the gameplay section, would be extremely helpful. I trust that you are at least somewhat familiar with the game so you know what things to trim out and what to keep? Anyways, thanks again! --haha169 (talk) 22:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and could you cross out all the things that you think are fixed? I provided a list of what I think I've fixed down below. I would like to know what concerns I have fixed. --haha169 (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Brawlmenu.jpg, Image:SSB Sonic Mario.PNG, Image:SolidSnakeandMarioinBrawl.jpg - all of them don't really fit criteria 3 for WP:FA?, under Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, p. 8 (note, the wording is under reconsideration, so I'm applying both to this FAC.) According to the current version, "non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic", the proposal reads "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information. There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article." How are the above shots defensible as contributing significantly to the article's content? The 'playable characters' tells us everyone who is in the game, so how do mugshots significantly help the reader? For the sonic-solid snake shots; how do vanity shots really help the text? You can just click a link to see what Snake and Sonic look like, so there has to be some commentary for them to stand on their own (also, the choice of images overall is somewhat bad. Why oh why is Mario in every screenshot???) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)00:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Snake and Sonic are in the images with Mario to show their presence in the game as the first third-party characters within the game. The character roster is there to show who is in the game without over-fluffing the text as well as showing the reader what Brawl's select screen looks like (this style is the same in all of Brawl's select screens). Furthermore, each of the Wii games have a significantly different select screen style (Search Metroid Prime 3, and Mario Galaxy's select screens on Google), so this image is also relaying that information. As for your question regarding Mario, he is in every image because Nintendo decided to release only images that had Mario in them. The ones that didn’t have Mario in them were images that we deemed not necessary to include. I’ve just noticed that, but Mario is a very important Nintendo mascot…--haha169 (talk) 00:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
References and prose tell readers that Sonic and Snake are in the game; how does an image significantly aid that? What makes Brawl's select screen very important to readers who have never played the game? None of these images have any sort of commentary attached to them; if they serve as window dressing, they should not be in the article. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)14:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by the character roster. Melee has an image of the character screen, but they have a luxury that we don't: an image released by Nintendo that includes all the characters. Therefore, we use a select screen. It is important to the reader to know exactly what kind of characters are making an appearance and how the game's selection is styled. You could be right about the Mario and Sonic one, since that image has no relevancy to the text, but the Snake and Mario must stay as well. For one point, none of the images in the Solid Snake article depicts him from outside the Metal Gear world. This particular one includes him and his trademark Cardboard box (Brawl style), as well as Mario on Delfino Plaza. There is absolutely no alternative to this at all. Even the graphics on the images in the Solid Snake article are different. --haha169 (talk) 23:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I couldn't find an "elco" anywhere. Thanks for clarifying that. He seems trustworthy and experienced so I'll take his suggestions. However, I think the Snake image should still stay. If the other two must be removed, then so be it. --haha169 (talk) 23:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A short comment:
Almost immediately into the lead there is abundance of VG jargon that could be simplified or emphasized less until there is more space to do the explanation. For someone who almost never plays video games (except for a penchant for Soulcalibur II), the jargonish aspects make navigating the article much more difficult, especially so soon into the text. --Kakofonous (talk) 04:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What type of "jargon" are you talking about? In the first paragraph, all I see is a nice description about the game's development. The second is a short summary on the game's gameplay and the third is the game's reception. The lead seems fine to me. As for the gameplay section, it might be a little too long, but it is hardly making the article difficult to navigate. --haha169 (talk) 23:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Laser Brain and Kakofonous, i.e. for problems with prose and over-abundance with jargon. I went in and did some copy-editing before having a look at the FAC discussion here, only to note that many of the things I'd changed had been raised as concerns here already, e.g. the frequent "As with its predecessors" (and variants thereof). In combination, it looks too much as though this article is only comprehensible by, and is indeed aimed at, those who are already familiar with the previous game in the "Super Smash Bros" series. This is an unacceptably small potential public. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which is, obviously, why I'm requesting for copy-editors. So far, all of the editors on the article, with the possible exception of our GA assessor (who became a minor editor after the assessment) is familiar with the game. Therefore, it is rather difficult to phrase it in a way which makes it easier to understand. However, I believe that the article is still well written enough that people who are not familiar with the article will still be able to understand, except for some parts of the Gameplay. You don't have to be familiar with the subject to understand the Development and Reception sections. However, I agree that a thorough copy-edit in the Gameplay section may be needed.--haha169 (talk) 02:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support The article is very good but I'm sure that there is some things that we can do to improve the article. If I had any ideas on how to improve it, I'd say so. If anyone can suggest on how to improve the article, suggest ideas.Looneyman (talk) 18:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per criterion three concerns:
Image:Brawlmenu.jpg - NFCC#3A requires minimal use. Image:SSBB Cover.jpg already contains numerous character images in amount and detail that seem perfectly adequate to provide illustration/understanding/etc. of the characters, their style, their types, etc. I'm not convinced of the necessity of seeing every last character; a sampling is sufficient to provide the desired understanding.
Image:SSB Sonic Mario.PNG appears to be purely decorative. That the two characters appear together is a concept conveyed easily by prose (NFCC#1). Seeing Sonic (Mario appears on the cover) does not seem to be necessary (NFCC#3A) to understand the game, the rivalry, etc. If you're desperate to have them together, why not replace Image:SSBB Emissary Gameplay.jpg (which is Mario vs. Pit) with an equivalent in which Mario is against Sonic?
Reply I'll consider removing the Brawl Menu after a talk page excursion, but I still believe Snake's image should stay. My reasons are listed above with my discussion with David Fuchs. --haha169 (talk) 04:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As an actionable item relevant to this FAC, I'm not sure an excursion is necessary, but I'm happy to continue the discussion in a different venue, if so desired. On the issue of snake, try not to focus too much on the character. Remember, the article is about SSBB, so the primary consideration for fair use images is whether they help us to understand that topic. Why is seeing Snake from "outside the Metal Gear world" necessary to understand SSBB itself or his inclusion therein? The importance of Snake, as discussed in the article, seems to be that he is a third-party character; how does an image convey this concept above and beyond prose (NFCC#1)? Why not replace one of the gameplay screenshots with one in which Snake is a participant (NFCC#3A), essentially killing two birds with one stone? ЭLСОВВОLДtalk15:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
OK, yet another Zelda FAC... a current GA, this article is well-written, referenced and illustrated, since the failed FA candidacy last year hasimproved very much, and unlike the recentfailures, is comprehensive and detailed in all sections. igordebraga≠16:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ouch, that hurt... I wouldn't call any FAC a "failure"... but anyway, some opening comments:
"Twilight met with both commercial and critical success." - eh, could you expand that and state what reviewers liked/didn't about the game?
"it was delayed by Nintendo so that the EAD staff could add more content and refine the game." since it's a new paragraph, replace "it" with Twilight Princess and specify who EAD is- I can figure out its the people you were talking about in the first paragraph, but suddenly using the abbreviation is bad.
Sorry if my words were bad (specially because the second one was your work... and was very close to passing, unlike the first one). But anyway, fixed both suggestions, and I'm open to anything you say, Fuchs. igordebraga≠22:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, my man. Anyway, some more stuff:
The whole first paragraph of gameplay is horrible for anyone who has never picked up a Zelda game: "Twilight Princess features a stylized, naturalistic art style (similar to, but far more advanced than that found in Ocarina of Time), rather than the cel-shaded look that The Wind Waker exhibited — although it still makes use of cel-shading effects, as it uses a very heavily modified version of The Wind Waker’s engine.[1] In a further departure from The Wind Waker, Link is once again a young man, as opposed to a child, as in the latter part of Ocarina of Time and in The Adventure of Link. The game also has a darker tone, similar to Majora's Mask.[10]" - if you're going to talk about these other games, do so in relation to what they *are*, ex. more advanced than previous game OoT" or something similar.) Really, it shouldn't start out like this at all: is it a third person shooter? Who knows, because that info isn't there.
Continuing with gameplay: "The singular exception to this is Midna" exception to what? "Returning from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, a horse can again be ridden in Twilight Princess." bad sentence structure, et al. Really, the gameplay needs to be reorganized so it flows better and addresses key issues.
Abilities section; seems to belong with statements in gameplay, another reason it needs to be reorganized.
Plot: perhaps there should be a setting/characters component to the synopsis so people are familiarized with the game and its world?
"British publication NGC Magazine claimed, in December 2005, that when the GameCube version is played on Wii, the player will be given the option of using the Wii's unique controller;[33] and it was not suspected that two versions of the game would be released." Lots of, commas here, make, it hard to read.
Fixed. ("just funny" note: in a previous FAC of mine, someone used the same reasoning saying Eats, Shoots & Leaves instead)
"Some reviews have mentioned drawbacks about the game, however. The most commonly mentioned is that the game, having been designed for the GameCube, is not up to scratch with the cutting-edge graphics of its competitors. Some aspects of the game's design have been more firmly criticized by a number of reviewers. " Doesn't sound like good prose, and is unreferenced. Don't deal with generalities, or source them.
Begun the first and second, will try my best to fix (even if I haven't played it yet, have a GameCube but could only afford Wind Waker). igordebraga≠02:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's still nebulous for someone who hasn't played the game.
Comments
"Along with new weapons, Link can get two shields, one made of wood and other of metal, and three suits, the regular green garb, a Zora Armor which allows him to breathe underwater, and the Magic Armor which gives invincibility while draining his money. Unlike previous games, magic arrows are not available..." Why would someone who has never played the game know what magic arrows are, or care?
"Twilight Princess retains the basic gameplay from the 3D Zelda games, with basic actions such as walking, running, attacking, defending, and automatic jumping at ledges."- can you talk about what kind of a game TP is before we launch into how it is similar?
"The protagonist Link also uses the control system introduced in Ocarina of Time that allows him to "lock-on" to an enemy or other target." Suddenly jumps into minutiae of gameplay, once again is not helping a novice reader understand the game.
"Link battles enemies, collects items, and solves puzzles to progress through a dungeon, fighting a boss at the end. " this is better, but it's entirely understated. How does the story progress? How do players advance through stages? What people and items aid Link in his quest? What new gameplay features were added? The section seems looped in on itself and not following a most-important -> detail scheme which makes it confusing to read.
"Link is a young adult similar to the one from latter part of Ocarina of Time, unlike the child hero from the previous game, and as opposed to the cartoon-looking cel-shaded of its predecessor, Twilight Princess features a stylized, naturalistic art style, similar to, but far more advanced than that found in Ocarina of Time." awkward sentence, break up into two. Perhaps you should explain why it doesn't follow The Wind Waker look, and how that was a radical departure from previous games?Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk)17:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is a fansite. But it is republishing an interview made by a Japanese magazine, translated. Maybe I'll change the Cite web to credit Nintendo Dream instead of The Hylia.
Tricky. Credit the Japanese site and give it's url and then offer the translation and it's url as a secondary note? I think that'd satisfy things. Ealdgyth - Talk15:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm more looking for things that satisfy WP:RS, like what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Ealdgyth - Talk18:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The pictures "sandwiching" text with the infobox is problematic and will need to be addressed. Perhaps shrink the infobox picture some, remove the imput devices and media, and that will give you more room for pictures.Ottava Rima (talk) 03:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Fix that reception section box, and I'll give a more elaborate comment. (The awards section is completely irrelevant. Just leave the Game of the Year awards at the bottom of a normal VG Reviews template box. --haha169 (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright. Separate those awards with a new section...I believe there is one, but I forgot the code. And keep only the MOST relevant game of the year awards...since those are awkwardly long. (Gamespot and X-Play game of year. That's it). The rest of the article seems nice. Cut down a bit on the plot if possible, and remove one of those 3 images in the gameplay section. (Or relocate it) --haha169 (talk) 22:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Supporting this article now. It have improved vastly since the day I first wrote a complaint about the images on the talk page. In fact, I was ignored! FAC does wonders to articles...--haha169 (talk) 02:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll keep that in mind. I honestly don't remember supporting before, unless I changed my mind and forgot to mention it here. I changed my mind after I noticed the image clutter, then decided to support once that happened and the fact that the article vastly improved. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I forgot to leave a note. --haha169 (talk) 23:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support - Got some things to fix;
Fair use rationales are extremely vague; they need to say exactly what they demonstrate and why it significantly contributes to the article.
None of the images really demonstrate the art direction which was so highly praised, perhaps replace one of the gameplay images, which seem somewhat redundant, with one showing the art style. A shot from the Twilight realm might work.
Added a new image to Development highlighting artistic style in the Twilight Realm, since one image was removed from Gameplay. GaryKing(talk)18:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is no reference in the box for EGM's Game Informers game of the year.
"and Nintendo GameCube video game consoles." - just "gamecube" will do fine...
I think it should be kept. Doesn't detract from the statement and helps clarify that both the Wii and GameCube are video game consoles. GaryKing(talk)00:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Nintendo so that the" - rmv that
"The Wii version was released on the dates of the Wii launch, in November and December of 2006." - what was the actual date? It can't be both months...
"Twilight met with both" - use its full name (as in, TP)
"review websites such as IGN, EGM, 1UP.com, and Game Informer " - check italics...IGN, for instance, shouldn't...nor should 1UP, not sure about rest
"he basic gameplay from the 3D Zelda games is retained, with basic" - basic...basic...reword
"there is a 'lock-on' mechanism" - on what? Clarify that it's on the hook
I am withholding my support until the stability issue noted by Coanda-1910 is resolved—a note on my talk page when that's done will get my support (or, if I forget, consider this a support if the oppose below is struck...thanks Sandy! :). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose: There's a current discussion on the article thread about the last sentence of the opener - the one about some reviewers calling it the "greatest Zelda game ever." I have an opinion on the topic, laid out in the talk page, but that's not really what this objection is about. I simply think that the opening section of the article probably ought to be stable before it gets FA status. If consensus is reached on the topic (either way), I'll withdraw my opposition. Coanda-1910 (talk) 05:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really unstable as it hasn't been touched in a few days. The page just agreed with the user but a few users helped pitch in to make the statement less POV and more accurate. GaryKing(talk)11:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stability issues would be that major facts about the article are changing, massive vandalism or edit wars; wording issues do not equal article stability problems. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If there was anything to oppose about this article, it would probably be the 3 images clogging the gameplay section. One of the first two could be removed in the future if consensus is reached, but it isn't that big of an issue. Stability definitely isn't a problem. --haha169 (talk) 21:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I still am not exactly thrilled about the way it reads and I did see an ongoing discussion of the wording, but I can see either side and don't have a major issue with it as is; I also agree that it's not a huge part of the article. Withdrawing objection. Coanda-1910 (talk) 01:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: "Midna bids Link and Zelda farewell, and then shatters the twilight mirror with one of her tears. After Midna enters the portal, the Mirror shatters" in the final Plot paragraph sound redundant. Also the first two gameplay screneshots, the first one could be removed completely and the second put in its place to make that area seem less cluttered. Also the second screenshot could be cropped of its black bars to match the rest of the screenshots. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded. "After Midna" is used, though, because both Link and Zelda are mentioned in the previous sentence (and Zelda is female, so 'She' would be ambiguous). Moved image, and cropped. GaryKing(talk)01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The writing is only just reasonable (much improved in this area from a while ago, but it needs to be polished, especially after the top—a quick run through by a copy-editor). Just at random (suggesting there's lots more) ...
"Link can get different armor"—but stubby, and "get" is ungainly here. Then "which ... which".
ice, fire and Light: one cap?
More commas wouldn't go astray (less objective, though). Especially in longish sentences.
"Wolf Link has also an improved sense of smell, which allows him to follow trails left by certain characters in the game (or obtaining scents of other things to guide him, such as medicine or fish), and is also the only way players are able to see wandering spirits and hunt for the Poes—which can neither be seen (except for the lanterns they carry) nor attacked without the ability"—If "also" really is necessary (often it's not), it's in the wrong position. "to obtain", surely, to match the previous grammar; then a totally redundant "also". Weed them out. This sentence is a long snake.
"The game's score was composed by"—Which word is redundant? And "the game's title screen".
"Kondo originally stated that he "would really like to push for" the music being performed by an orchestra, as he considers live instruments much more deep and expressive than the ones used in digital music." Ungrammatical; why not "for an acoustic orchestral performance" (and I think you need to distinguish it from a synthesised orchestral sound.
"The game falls chronologically over a century after Ocarina of Time"—No, use "more than" or we think it's over = during the course of. Boring to have to disambiguate in reverse.
Now these are taken throughout at random. It's within reach, but not promotable yet. Please let me know when someone fresh has worked on it. Tony(talk)16:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
a 'lock-on' mechanism that allows circle strafing while staying aimed on the enemy - it is there
Yes, but the text doesn't actually use the phrase "L-targeting" so the casual reader has no idea that L-targeting means the above. Also, does the image actually increase the reader's understanding of this system?
Improved caption. Also, the image does help understanding; an arrow is shown above the enemy; this is only shown when lock-on is used. GaryKing(talk)18:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It would probably be best if you mentioned why the arrow is there, in that case. That would probably be OK then.
Image:Zeldatp-screens (120).jpg claims to show the "sense ability" of the wolf form, but again the contents of the image are not explicitly discussed anywhere, leading it to fail the same part of the policy.
Wolf Link has also an improved sense of smell, which allows him - it is there
How does the image show us that the wolf has an improved sense of smell? It doesn't, as far as I can see.
Ah, now I understand (and a casual reader would too). This is probably OK now.
Image:Zeldatp-screens (517).jpg just fails WP:NFCC full stop - it doesn't add anything to the article at all. What the two characters look like is covered in their own articles.
Changed location and caption.
This is still a decorative image, and still fails NFCC#8. "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." I don't see how it does this. Black Kite16:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This image is borderline decorative, I agree, but it's the only one that shows Midna. I've updated the caption to focus on Midna and to explicitly say that this is her, what she is, etc. GaryKing(talk)18:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, there is already a non-free image of her in her own article, which is linked, so if the only purpose of the image is to demonstrate what she looks like, this is still decorative, I'm afraid.
Criterion 3: I was the reviewer who asked Black Kite to take a look at the copyright implications, so that I (and perhaps others) have an opportunity of learning how this critical aspect of WP's mission should be reviewed. Thank you, Black Kite. Tony(talk)13:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, 1a. Very good start, but the prose is not up to standard yet. Suggest a general copyedit by an experienced and uninvolved editor. The gameplay and plot sections stray into "game guide" territory and away from our general audience.
The lengthy translation of the title is extremely visually distracting. What is the purpose? This is en.wiki. If someone wants to see the title in Japanese they can click the interwiki link, yes?
There are too many sentences in the lead that begin with either the game title or "The game..."
"This makes Twilight Princess the first Zelda game to debut at the launch of a Nintendo console." Avoid beginning sentences with the word "This" referring to a previous idea. Restate the idea.
Ditto: "This is triggered with the Z button for the Wii and the L button for the GameCube."
Ditto: "This is not a completely separate place like the Dark World in A Link to the Past..."
Need someone to check comma usage throughout.
Check single-quote use where double-quotes are proper.
"Players start with a wooden shield that can be replaced with a metal one which withstands magical attacks." Surely the character gets the shield, not the player. I mean, that would be pretty cool, but check use of the terms player and character throughout. They are not interchangable.
"To operate the game, the Wii version uses the Wii Remote..." The player uses the remote, not the "Wii version".
Gary, I think further work is needed, although I have tremendous respect for the work you have done thus far. I think this would benefit from an "uninvolved" copyedit which is means you grab an editor who hasn't seen the text. I recommended getting a non-video game person because this still reads too much like a game guide in places. I've had the experience of looking at my own article until I'm goo-goo and I know it's hard to disengage and ask for an external copyedit.. but it needs it. --Laser brain(talk)18:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked around already; I'm awaiting responses. All the copyedits I know are up to their necks in copyediting requests, and I can't blame them for passing this one up. Why does everyone have to discriminate against video game articles so much :p GaryKing(talk)18:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I managed to somehow get Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare to FA status a few days ago, so I don't see why I can't get this one there, also. C'mon, pull it together Gary! Alright, I just got to refresh my mental state first before doing a thorough copyediting of this article; I love Zelda, but I've read this article so many times that I sometimes feel like I live in the Zelda universe. GaryKing(talk)19:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I sincerely hate to say it but much more work still needed. I think you desperately need a fresh pair of eyes on this. I don't have to go far into the Gameplay section before the writing is more Nintendo Power than Wikipedia. Attention needed to grammar, and sentences like "There are also three suits: the standard green garb, a Zora Armor which allows Link to breathe underwater, and a Magic Armor which provides invincibility while draining his money." --Laser brain(talk)05:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"with the help of a mysterious creature named Midna" Ambiguous "with". ("prevent...with the help of" or "engulfing Hyrule with the help of"?)
"In addition, review websites " "In addition" does not work here as the previous sentence is unrelated.
"The basic gameplay from the 3D Zelda games" This assumes readers are familiar with the gameplay of these "3D" Zelda games.
It is explained in the next sentence.
"The game features several dungeons, which are large, enclosed, and often underground areas where" Ungainly "often...where" construct.
"To complete a dungeon, Link primarily uses" Presumably he uses these to fight enemies, not to "complete" a dungeon. Or maybe I'm just not getting the nebulous definition of "complete" here.
"warp points" Explain/link for the uninitiated please.
"the set name of the horse" What is a "set" name?
"Along with the new weapons, different armor is available for Link" What? Where is the mention of "the new weapons" beforehand? We just have a description of weapons. What's new? What does "different" mean in this context? Different meaning from previous games? Or different as in players can choose different pieces of armor as they see fit?
"the former is used by Zelda" link please.
"To operate the game, the Wii version" misplaced modifier
"He transforms into a wolf he enters the Twilight Realm" huh?
I'm still an oppose here per Laser brain. The writing does not sparkle and the article seems to assume readers are familiar with the series/game, which is a big no-no. Some examples I've found while skimming the article:
"The story focuses on Link, who tries to prevent the Twilight Realm from engulfing Hyrule." And the Twilight Realm is what? An organization? This is in the lead, no less.
"exists that allows circle strafing while staying aimed on the enemy, which is triggered" Awkward placement of "which"
"Twilight Princess only offers regular arrows" This is contradicted by the next clause and sentence.
"Twilight Realm, a void which corrupted parts of Hyrule"
"When Link is in wolf form...When in wolf form, Link"
"and hunt for Poes, which can neither be" And Poes are?
"The built-in speaker on the remote is used for sounds " Is used for? The reader wonders by whom. Try "emits" or something similar.
"The enemy's AI in" Abbreviations should be spelled out on first use. This particular use of "AI" is colloquial and is pretty much only used in video game parlance. I would not consider it standard for an encyclopedia.
"To make combat easier, a "lock-on" mechanism exists allowing..." Long, awkward sentence. Begin by changing "mechanism exists allowing" -> "mechanism allows" and go from there.
"help him jump further"
"with a stylized, naturalistic art style" ambiguous modifier.
"a very heavily" We can do better than "very". The "however" in the sentence makes little sense.
"and the Nunchuk's motion sensors and pointers in conjunction with the buttons." No idea what is trying to be said here. Link for Nunchuk?
"By comparison, the GameCube version uses a control scheme similar to The Wind Waker" That'd be a fine comparison if only all readers are familiar with how to play The Wind Waker.
"A major difference between the control schemes" Which control schemes? The Wind Waker and the GameCube version of Twilight Princess, as the previous sentence suggests? Or the Wii and GameCube version?
"is that Link is able to equip only two items because the Z button is used to call Midna if the player is in need of help" And this is referring to which control scheme?
"before he wakes and" Wakes -> either "wakes up" or "awakens".
Japanese characters—Laser brain is perfectly justified in raising the issue of just why the bizarre practice of stamping out non-Roman characters is slavishly repeated in this article (there's even a romanised equivalent of the Japanese-language title, which doesn't help either). The fact that it has been occurring unchecked in other video-game articles provides more reason to question the practice, since the openings of so many of our vid articles are damaged by what is meaningless clutter to all but a tiny, privileged minority of English-speakers. The place for Japanese characters is in the Japanese WP, like ... HERE.
I always enjoy being part of a revolution. Where do I sign up? Oh, right... removed! Kazaam. I should also point out that this article is in no way a representation of support or opposition to this guideline put forward by this WikiProject. Please don't sue me. GaryKing(talk)16:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I have read the article and was blown away at its thoroughness. It is comprehensive; just about anything one would want to know about strap on dildoes. Its prose is brilliant, at times poetic. It has a number of tasteful images that instruct and enlighten without becoming overbearing. I can't believe this isn't already an FA. It features the best of wikipedia, nay humanity. JeanLatore (talk) 00:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because it does not mention there is a tiny island in Florida Bay called Dildo Key. Named for the dildo cactus, which is named for the dildo. Oh, and the lack of citations is a minor annoyance. --Moni3 (talk) 01:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. As much as I'd like it to be a featured article (being the original author and photographer), no one has anwered my pleas for help finding references (I can't cite myself or product lists for everything), and as such it is not going to be a featured article at this time (I'll save the rant on why reference-obsession hurts the encyclopedia for another place). If you want it to be a featured article, please lend a hand finding references! due to the taboo (and often illegal) nature of most of the activities strapons are used for, references are hard to find, and I don't have access to some of the places that would provide good references. So remove the nomination now, lend a hand finding some, then submit it again! Bushytails (talk) 06:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The principle editor has stated the article isn't FAC ready and has requested withdrawal. I have left a note for JeanLatore's mentor and will also leave a note for JeanLatore to adhere to WP:FAC instructions in the future. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
This article represents the collaborative work of a number of editors (myself included), from a variety of backgrounds with some diametrically-opposed viewpoints on the case. However it has been torn apart with a fine NPOV comb from both sides, leaving it a strong article without even a whiff of POV remaining.
It is timely, as Khadr's military commission is scheduled to begin very shortly - and is the only Guantanamo-related article that nears Featured Article status. Close collaboration with sources, including the family of the subject, the author of a book on the subject, the Department of Defense (and yes, JTFGTMO staff at Guantanamo themselves) means that every single photograph (31 of them!) has been released into the public domain, every letter that the subject has written has similarly been released, Wikisource has all the trial documentation of each of his trials in the past six years (linked from the WP article), as well as a number of Public-Domain news releases about the case (chiefly from the DoD, with one coming from The Wire as I recall).
With 249 citations, spanning every single statement in the article, an effort has even been made to double tap references and provide at least two references for each fact.
The article is long (although fits within the maximum size dictated by Wikipedia:Article size), and has been carefully vetted and had sentences, paragraphs, even entire sections pulled out to keep it as concise as possible. Some have been moved to the articles on other family members (see template at the bottom), while others have been moved to the fork Canadian response to Omar Khadr. Nary a stray word should still exist in the article that isn't necessary - we've boiled down six years of news articles, a full-length novel and a number of documentaries, into a single Wiki article. Modesty aside, it is a marvel at how much information is contained within.
Since April it has undergone a Peer Review and passed GA-status, and now it only awaits the necessary mechanism to become a Featured Article.
Comment: There are a large number of images in the article that result in "breaking" the text into blocks with lots of whitespace. Many of these images are similar to others, for instance, the three images of "the building". Many of these images should be removed, or moved into a separate gallery. Maury (talk) 03:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I assume it's an issue of screen resolution - is it just the shots of the compound that are "breaking" the article layout for you? If so, I'll move the three left-aligned shots to a Commons-link in the footer. Sherurcij(Speaker for the Dead) 03:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are a large number of images. Some are perhaps unnecessary and redundant, such as the multiple photos of him as a child, and multiple shots of the destroyed buildings. Perhaps if you could rearrange and reduce the photos it would be easier to read. If you have a large screen resolution try reducing the size of the window to simulate a smaller screen size, or just change your entire screen resolution in your system settings. I'm on a laptop with 1440x900 and the images were rather crowded and produced large white spaces. I only gave the prose a cursory glance but the multitude of images made it hard to read. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 05:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite, so I took the liberty of fixing it myself. I removed some of the photos which I thought were unnecessary. If you object to the removals, you can always put a gallery or a link to a commons gallery (which is more the standard)... otherwise, photos should not crowd the article. As a general rule, there should not be more than one photo per two or three paragraphs, and photos should not be on both sides of the page at once, which tends to squeeze the text between them. Photos should not have pixel sizes unless it is necessary to display a photo at larger sizes, they should be determined by user preferences by default. Also, I fixed the table which had some coding errors and I centered it because there just wasn't enough room for it to have text floated around it. Another issue, the introduction is awfully short for such a long article. It should be expanded to provide a more thorough summary of the entire article. I found multiple violations of the Manual of Style so I'm reserving support for a more in-depth analysis because this is a hefty read. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 09:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I think perhaps you were a little over-the-top in removing photos. It's important to the context of the article for somebody reading it to see the photos of the helicopter medevac, or when it says "The Vice-President's office released an image of Khadr planting landmines", to show that image. I've restored the photos themselves, but you're right about the sizing issue - so I've taken your advice there and removed the default sizes in favour of user-supported thumbnails (with the exception of Image:KHadr5.png which requires a default size to show any detail). In addition, your comment about the number of photos doesn't take into the account the fact the article text has seen 2 or 3 paragraphs merged into one throughout it, in an attempt to condense the size. There are over 300 sentences, with only 31 images, making it an image per ten sentences. And finally, the only 'profile' images which could be argued to be unnecessary, are in those sections that don't otherwise have many photos. Yee and Begg are the two most obvious candidates that could be moved...but since those sections would otherwise have no images and they're Public Domain, I don't see that there's much point. Sherurcij(Speaker for the Dead) 14:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) sorry, but I think re-adding the images was a bad idea, the "breakage" is back and I'm on a second computer. I stand by my first comment: many of these images are redundant. Khadr as a young child. is a good one, but we certainly don't need Khadr at the Metro Toronto Zoo., which is both poor quality and shows the same topic. We then have Khadr was known as his mother's favourite and An early photo of Khadr's mother which have similar problems. I suggest keeping only the first and last of this set. Moving on, I can see no purpose to One of Khadr's colleagues seen in the video, The 57th Medical team that ran the MedEvac. Almost as weak are "Another view of the buildings, A new tent-city, Supreme Court of Canada, Fred Borch, Col. Morris Davis or The interior of the courtroom, The trailer where CSR, which have almost nothing to do with the topic. This is an article about Khadr, not Gitmo. Maury (talk) 19:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think everyone is in agreement that there are too many images. Yes, lots of them are relevant, but that doesn't mean they have to be in the article. I'm sure I could find ten thousand photos of cats, but that doesn't mean they all belong in the cat article. It doesn't matter how much the text has been condensed, you can't cram that many photos around such a small amount of text like that, it looks horrible. Either make a gallery or remove the photos. Also, you reverted my changes to the table.... and the first row of the table is unreadable. You should place <small> tags instead of the <sub> tags as it lowers the row of text into the middle of the next row and makes it unreadable. Perhaps you should read the Manual of Style and come back when this article is in better shape. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 20:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (ec) Many images were licensed under the public domain by Zaynab Khadr (talk·contribs) (Zaynab Khadr) here. Do we actually know that this person is indeed the real Zaynab Khadr? It would be better if the Khadr family sent an e-mail through OTRS explicitly saying that they wanted the images licensed under the public domain. I also agree with Maury; there are way too many pictures all around the article ("Early life", "Capture", "The firefight" and "Aftermath" have a lot of whitespace). Some of the pictures are unnecessary, like the four images of the building. There are also MoS issues, such as the placement of references before a comma (it's supposed to be placed after the punctuation mark) and the incorrect linking of dates. "March 31" by itself would be linked, as would "March 31, 1992". "1992" by itself wouldn't be linked, though. Nishkid64(Make articles, not wikidrama)05:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think any of the images were licensed by the Wiki user (although it is indeed Zaynab Khadr), but through personal contact with the family. I can certainly have an OTRS ticket created this week however, not a problem. Again, I'm not sure how any of them other than "Aftermath" have whitespace - any chance you could toss a screenshot? Sherurcij(Speaker for the Dead) 05:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Update, the referencing issue has been resolved (I also double-checked sequential numbering on multi-refs). If you find me the MoS quote about linking years, I'll fix that as well - but last I heard from MoS, years were never to be linked. Sherurcij(Speaker for the Dead) 07:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- disclaimer, I worked on this article, but not recently.
disclaimer2, I never participated in an FA discussion before.
This article has been improved to a remarkable extent. My hats off to those who made the recent improvements.
Way, way too many images. "Khadr at the Metro Toronto Zoo."? "American soldiers standing outside the compound."? Significant work required to reduce the images to what actually lend comprehension to the article. Free images being available is not a reason to put them all in the article.
The formatting/layout are a mess due to the number and placement of images.
The lead is much too short for an article of this size. It does not adequately summarize the article.
The prose is not up to professional standard in many places. Example: "He claimed his vision of Jannah involved a swimming pool filled with Jell-O." Seemingly random statement unconnected with the preceding statements. Is that supposed to illustrate his being smart?
Passive voice obscures or eliminates subjects, even when the subject is required for understanding. Example: "Returning to Pakistan with his family, Ahmed was arrested in 1995 after it was alleged that he had connections to the financing of Ayman al-Zawahiri's bombing of the Egyptian embassy in Pakistan."
Vague statements require clarity. Example: "During their stay, the family often visited the compound of Osama Bin Laden, and the children of the two families played together." What two families?
Citations are frequently malformed and required information is absent. Example, the book Guantanamo's Child is oft-cited but incorrectly formatted in the References section. Page numbers are not cited, making verification nearly impossible. --Laser brain(talk)16:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll fix the citations in the references section although I don't think it's practical to list a separate page number for all 45 of the references to the book, etc. WP:LEAD is clear that four paragraphs should be the maximum for a lead, I'm not sure which parts you think aren't properly summarised or how the lead should be expanded? If anything, I would expect the opposite argument, that it's too long. Also, not all statements of facts are required "to illustrate his being smart" or anything similar, such a thing would border on POV - the statements exist because they are true and lend context to understanding the person, not to advance a particular belief that the subject is/isn't smart. I'm also unclear how images photos of the battle are not useful to understanding the battle. I've removed three images, and I've said I could understand removing one of the childhood images - but I really don't see that removing photos of his capture would "help" the article in any fashion - quite the opposite I think they would decrease understanding. Sherurcij(Speaker for the Dead) 17:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is not fixed - still malformed. Citing page numbers is not practical now because you didn't do it as you were writing, but it's still needed. There should be separate sections of Notes and References so you can cite the page numbers in notes and then cite the book in the References section. See Ima Hogg for an example. WP:V, non-negotiable. The lead not anywhere near four full paragraphs and doesn't mention much of what the article discusses. The entire body of prose needs work, not just the examples. The photos continue to clutter the entire article - each need a careful examination of what understanding it is providing. The issues with this article will not be solved by a few pokes and prods here at FAC - it needs lengthy and careful examination by copyeditors and other editors. Suggest general peer review or relevant WikiProjects for help. --Laser brain(talk)17:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's been through a peer review, two wikiProjects and Good-Article status. WP:V says nothing about page numbers being "non-negotiable", in fact it doesn't even say they are necessary. I don't mind rewriting the intro to be longer if that's the remaining issue, although I think it currently fits WP:LEAD perfectly. Sherurcij(Speaker for the Dead) 18:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please review my issue list again. The lead is far from the "remaining issue". Quick fixes will not be sufficient here. I will check back in 1 or 2 days to see if substantive work has been done allowing closer examination of the text. --Laser brain(talk)18:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I just can't help but feel this is not FA and contains way too much information that has little to do with the topic at hand. The article is 20 pages long on my screen. Contrary to the comments in the lead here, the article is absolutely filled with verbiage that could be removed: for instance, I really don't think we need to know how fresh the straw was, or that the gate was green. More to the point, I would argue that the vast majority of the "firefight" article simply doesn't belong here, if anywhere. Many of the details sections following strike me as completely trivial. Am I wrong in thinking that, given the topic matter, an article about the length of Mumia Abu-Jamal is appropriate? Maury (talk) 19:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While a second "Oppose" is pretty much a death knell sealing any chances to working towards FA - I'd like to respond anyways to point out that readers of the Mumia article are told only that "On December 9, 1981, Philadelphia Police Department officer Daniel Faulkner was shot and killed during a routine traffic stop of a vehicle belonging to William Cook, Abu-Jamal's younger brother. In the altercation Abu-Jamal was wounded by a shot from Faulkner, and collapsed on the sidewalk." - that's really not enough contextual information to offer any detail on the event. Was he shot with a rifle? shotgun? revolver? Was it a legal firearm? Who was driving the vehicle, Mumia? His brother? Someone else? Who fired first, Faulkner or Abu-Jamal? The simple lack of information makes the article worse than the Omar Khadr article. There is no reason that known information shouldn't be included if relevant to the subject. Whether a granary is full of fresh straw, or an abandoned outbuilding is relevant, the fact that O. J. Simpson's Ford Bronco was white is relevant, if a detail is known I can't think of any logical reason to let it fall from the history books. Sherurcij(Speaker for the Dead) 19:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - It's too much. I agree with too many images, many sandwiching text, making it hard to read. The entire article, but particularly Time at Guantanamo, needs a thorough copy edit to make it easier to read. There is no reason for an article about a teenager to have over 200 citations, numbers 13, 20, 27 used that many times. The citations need a cleanup. It's clearly well-referenced, but it needs a lot of work to make people want to read it. --Moni3 (talk) 22:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - a number of websites in the references are lacking publisher and last access date information. Even more websites in the references are lacking either publisher or last access date. Being on the road and with limited wiki editing time, I just can't take the time to read through 136 references double checking them. I'll try to get back to this later when I'm home or they are fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk04:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is simply not yet FA material. Here are some objections:
Over-illustrated. Concur with reviewers above.
Cites/refs. These are (IMO) messy and complicated. Consider the "short cite/full reference" system (Hamlet or Emily Dickinson as models) which is clearer, neater and less duplicatory.
Comprehensiveness/factual accuracy/neutrality (1): this article glosses over the Khadr family's links to terrorism. Omar's father has been linked to Al-Qaeda; his late brother was apparently a suicide bomber. In the murky world of the "War on Terror", this is enough for indefinite detention. It also goes a long way to explaining the Canadian government's reluctance to take up the cudgels on his behalf. This article needs to tell the whole story, including family background, for context.
Comprehensiveness/factual accuracy/neutrality (2): bowdlerisation of the reasons why the family moved to Pakistan. The source says it was to "spare them from 'drugs and homosexual relationships' ", which has become "animus for western social influences". Khadr's mother holds views that some western liberals might find unattractive (though many Christian evangelists, for example, would agree wholeheartedly with them) but so what? They are part of Khadr's founding influences.
Comprehensiveness/factual accuracy/neutrality (3): The article fails to lay out the US' point of view for continued detention. Guantanamo is meant to be beyond the normal rule of law. Therefore, being caught in arms (or in close proximity to arms); coming from an apparently Al-Qaeda poster family, etc is sufficient justication for detention of itself. Sure this is all circumstantial stuff – rumour, innuendo, confessions under duress, and guilt by association – but that's the way Guantanamo was meant to operate, with drumhead court-martials to punish malfaisants.
Comprehensiveness/factual accuracy/neutrality (4): The emphasis on exoneration about the hand grenade in the lead sets the scene for what is essentially a "release Khadr" sub-text.
Copy: longwinded. As noted above, it needs vigorous pruning. Find a hardnosed collaborator to cut it back to essentials.
WP:COI concerns: I raised these at the peer review but they were dismissed out of hand. I don't think you have the distance necessary to write a featured article on a profoundly difficult subject. Find an uninvolved copy-editor to steer a middle course.
One brief comment -- it is a mistake to criticize the article for not reporting that one of Khadr's brothers was a suicide bomber -- because none of his brother's were suicide bombers. Geo Swan (talk) 12:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rejoinder: I said apparently a suicide bomber. This allegation is reported in the sources cited here and therefore needs covering, along with any suitably sourced rebuttal. It goes to the heart of Khadr's upbringing and cannot just be airbrushed out. What was the Jesuit saw? "Give me the boy and I will give you the man."?
As further evidence of the atmosphere in which Omar Khadr was raised, the excellent Rolling Stone article cited here says Ahmed said Khadr, Omar's father, always said he did not want to die in bed. He wanted to be killed. When his children were very young, he told them, "If you love me, pray that I will get martyred." Three times he asked Omar's older brother Abdurahman to become a suicide bomber. --ROGER DAVIEStalk13:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What you wrote was: "...his late brother was apparently a suicide bomber..." In an article on the moon landings there is no requirement to say "the landings cast doubt on the theory the moon is made of green cheese". Similarly, since the only brother to have passed away did so on infancy, because of a heart defect, there is no reason to address misinformed comments on his late brother's suicide bombings. Geo Swan (talk) 13:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you can offer your sources for your assertions about the "US point of view", over on the article's talk page? Contrary to your assertion it is official US policy that the captives are not being "punished". Without references none of the material you assert is missing could be placed in the article, without violating WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Geo Swan (talk) 12:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rejoiner: At a very basic level, Rumsfeld's notorious "worst of the worse" speech is a good place to start. I haven't suggested that the detainees are being "punished": the Guantanamo ethos is preventative detention. Millions of words have been written on this including Lawless World: America and the Making and Breaking of Global Rules (ISBN0-670-03452-5) and Torture Team: Deception, Cruelty and the Compromise of Law (ISBN978-1846140082]], both by Philippe Sands. --ROGER DAVIEStalk13:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Erm, that one goes right over my head as Rumsfeld and Bush were Secretary of Defense and President/Commander-in-chief respectively at the time and were certainly not acting in a private capacity. Anyhow, to drag this back to the point, I think the article, to be comprehensive, needs to contextualise Guantanamo as part of the War on Terror. --ROGER DAVIEStalk03:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Comment - This is a very good article and the nominator is right to be impressed with it. Although clearly not ready for FA, (which I'm sure the major contributors realise), hopefully this FAC will stimulate further work on this potential treasure. GrahamColmTalk16:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this is a long way from FA status: I was surprised to learn that someone had nominated it here. I have been working on the article for a while, albeit painfully slowly. There is however much to do in terms of content alone, besides reviewing for writing quality, sourcing and everything else that makes for a successful FAC. I'd welcome people's suggestions for improvement now or at any time, though. — BillCtalk22:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The greatest work of Maxwell's life was devoted to electricity." sounds a bit off
"Maxwell's most important contribution" to...?
Obviously there are two sections which could do with expansion
I think the 'Legacy' list should be converted to prose
I think the begining of the 'colour analysis' section ("Maxwell also made") sounds a bit odd as it's the first time some of his contributions are listed.. perhaps it should be moved to come after the electricity section if you're going to say 'also'?
As the 'personality' section deals with poetry it should probably be retitled as such
There are a few minor typos/errors throughout, for example "King's college London" not having 'college' capitalised.
Sadly I'd been reading this article for a while before I realised that this was the guy who came up with Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution! Somehow when I read it in the lead it didn't fully register in my head :( I'd love to help out with this if I get the time. -- Naerii22:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Contrary to the comments above, I think this article is an excellent basis for a fast-track to FA. there are lots of comments about it not being FA quality above, but few specifics of any gravity. Capitalization and a few word changes? Ok, let's just do it. The only FA-rejectable "offence" I can find is "many stub sections", but this actually turns out to be "two", and I don't consider either of them to require expansion. That is especially true for control theory, which is a minor historical point, and might be safely removed entirely. Let's get specific, put up the problems, fix it, and FA it. Maury (talk) 03:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A few paragraphs are also unreferenced. Also, there are a few cleanup tags, especially those focused on article expansion. I can't personally say if the article needs expansion or not since I don't know much about Maxwell (even though I did take Physics during Twelfth grade in high school), but it seems like it's lacking information. If not, then perhaps a few of the shorter sections could be merged together. GaryKing(talk)04:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support. There is in fact only one real stub, the sentence on control theory, which can be solved simply enough by moving it to its place in chronological sequence and removing the header. (That is the condition; I would do it myself but may have to leave without notice.) Beyond that, there are no non-trivial actionable complaints. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson17:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have completed a number of changes to this section, increased detail level, and added additional references. If there are remaining issues, please let me know. Maury (talk) 18:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now based on some citation issues. I am impressed that the article is able to explain some of the mathematical concepts so that a layman can understand them, but I believe the article needs a copyedit to eliminate redundancies and awkward phrasing. I've provided a very few examples of some of these prose issues.
Per WP:MOSQUOTE, quotations of under 4 lines should not be broken out from the text.
There's a lot of awkward phrasing in the article (Examples only: " and themselves to become notable scholars", "included some highly regarded names" - names, not professors?, "In October 1850, already an accomplished mathematician,"). I'd recommend a thorough copyedit.
Watch for redundant phrasing as well ("earning himself " instead of "Earning", etc)
I'm a bit confused by this sentence "responsibilities as head of department, devising the syllabus and preparing the lectures" - did he devise syllabi and prepare lectures for other people, or for his own classes? If those were his own classes, then that reflects his responsibilities as a professor, in addition to his head of dept responsibilities.
Is there a citation for "In 1871, he became the first Cavendish Professor of Physics at Cambridge."
Is there a citation for "He supervised every step of the progress of the building and of the purchase of the very valuable collection of apparatus paid for by "
Occasionally he's referred to as "Clerk Maxwell" instead of "Maxwell". Please be consistent.
Any critical analysis of his poems? Any information on how popular the collection was?
Need a citation for this " his quantitative connection between light and electromagnetism is considered one of the great triumphs of 19th century physics."
Need a citation for "It was considered the final word on the issue"
Need a citation for "instruments which he devised for these investigations were simple and convenient in use" (simple and convenient can be personal preference adjectives, so let's see who said this)
There are no citations in the kinetic theory section. I think it needs at least one.
I'd prefer to see the legacy section converted to prose instead of a list. If it remains as a list, please remove full stops at the end as these are not complete sentences for the most part
It looks like http://www.thepeerage.com/p22717.htm#i227165 gets its information from Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, which isn't the most reliable of sources. What makes this a reliable source?
Oppose. The article makes only cursory use of the most recent scholarly biography, Harman's The Natural Philosophy. I'm not super familiar with the state of Maxwell scholarship, but in the areas I am familiar with the article falls well short. I suspect that an article based mainly on Harman's work would mean serious changes throughout the article.
The discussion of religion in this article is totally inadequate; the one-paragraph section seems focused on historiographical issues rather than actually explaining the evolution of Maxwell's religious views and the role they played in his scientific work. As Crosbie Smith has argued in The Science of Energy (1998), "Maxwell's deeply Christian perspective on nature and society became inseparable from his central commitment to the science of energy" (p. 211); this is something that ought to play a role in the discussion of his scientific work throughout the article. Another grave (and related) omission is the lack of broader intellectual context for the scientific work. Dividing that discussion into cut-and-dry sections on Maxwell's "Contributions" to different fields neglects the main scientific (and socio-political) agenda his work was a part of...the recasting of physics into the language of energy (see Smith's Science of Energy).
The discussion of aether/ether theory (which is unreferenced) is particularly out of step with current historical thought on that issue. Maxwell had a complex mathematical ether theory that needs to be explained in relationship to his electromagnetic and kinetic theory work, and in relation to other thought on ether around the same time. The current discussion is the physics textbook version of history. Einstein and Michelson-Morley have little relevance to Maxwell's ether work of 4 decades earlier. (And indeed, Michelson-Morley played little if any role in the genesis of Einstein's special relativity.)--ragesoss (talk) 22:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Michelson-Morley played little if any role in the genesis of Einstein's special relativity. Really now? If ragesoss means only the genesis of SR as part of Einstein's own intellectual history, as distinct from the rest of physics, this would be exaggerated; as a general statement, I should like to see a source, any source. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson23:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to Einstein's own intellectual history. "If any" was hedging, since I didn't remember the precise details offhand..."little role" is fair assessment of how recent historical work has characterized it, I think. The MM experiment was invoked by Einstein afterwards, but does not seem to have been central in any way to Einstein's formulation of special relativity. Einstein had primarily theoretical (and perhaps practical) as opposed to experimental reasons for rejecting ether. See Peter Galison's Einstein's Clocks, Poincaré's Maps (2003), among other sources: "To Einstein [Michelson's work] was just one more suggestive piece of evidence that the very idea of the ether was 'superfluous.'" (p. 204) This is in contrast to Lorentz and Poincaré, who viewed ether drift experiments as crucial and interpreted Michelson's interferometer experiments in terms of ether theory and the contraction of matter (i.e., the interferometer's arms) as it moved through the ether. It was not until after special relativity that the Michelson-Morley experiment was seen as a decisive disproof of the ether. Even then, a number of experimenters continued to pursue similar experiments; the Michelson–Morley experiment article lists ones continuing until 1930. I don't know the source for it, but that article even states that "As late as 1920, Einstein himself still spoke of a type of ether...". In any case, the idea of ether is a moving target, and one that moved quite a long ways from Maxwell to Michelson-Morley to special relativity.--ragesoss (talk) 01:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-nominator I'm nominating this article for featured article because I think it fulfils the FA criteria; it's undergone a peer review. The article is about a Roman town in England. All constructive criticism is welcome. Nev1 (talk) 10:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
Current ref 78 "Chester Ampitheatre Project" is lacking a publisher.
All other links worked fine. Full disclosure, I passed this article for GA earlier in April. Hopefully, I can find time to do a fuller review later. Ealdgyth - Talk11:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Image:Deva.jpg does not appear to be properly licensed. As a photograph of a contemporary work, this image is a derivative work, the rights to which are retained by the craftsman of the model. Freedom of Panorama does not apply to "works of artistic craftsmanship" in the U.K. Without proof of release from the copyright holder of the model, Chestertouristcom does not have rights to release this image.ЭLСОВВОLДtalk14:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. You are mistaken. It is not an infringement of copyright to take photographs of works of artistic craftmanship that are permanently situated in a public place, or in premises that are open to the public. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments In general very good - I have made some smallish clarificatory edits. The name Victrix should be explained, and the relationship of the Roman town/camp to the modern city expanded, probably with a final section. Neither here nor in Chester city walls is it explained what portions of the current city walls follow the line of the Roman walls. a superimposed map would help greatly. Nor I think is the Chester Museum mentioned. What modern streets follow Roman patterns? Johnbod (talk) 14:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Victrix is now explained as meaning victorious. I should be able to expand on the city walls tomorrow, although a map showing it may be challenging. How do you think the relationship between the Roman town/camp to the modern city should be expanded? Nev1 (talk) 17:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, describing the 4 corners in terms of modern locations, mentioning any main streets and wall sections following Roman paths, and (if any) other minor remaining traces of the Roman city. Was there a bridge, or ford? I've forgotten if one was mentioned. Johnbod (talk) 18:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'm afraid the changes will have to wait until at least Tuesday as I don't have access to the sources I've been using. Nev1 (talk) 01:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The copy isn't up to snuff I'm afraid, which is a pity because this is lovingly put together and well researched. It needs a vigorous prune by competent classicist (or at least an editor familiar with the period) to excise some of the repetition, longwindedness and awkwardnesses. Here are some random examples:
first in timber and then by the end of the first century they started to use stone > "first in timber and from the end of the first century in stone"?
The fortress walls were rebuilt in stone, the new wall was 1.36 metres (4.5 ft) thick at the base of the wall and 1.06 metres (3.5 ft) thick at the top > "The new stone walls were 1.36 metres (4.5 ft) thick at the base and 1.06 metres (3.5 ft) thick at the top"?
most likely diminished in line with the rest of the Empire > "most likely diminished in line with the rest of the empire's forces"?
Translate canabae legionis?
Consolidate all the "cabanae legionis fragments into one section? Perhaps with an explanation? They're scattered throughout the text and disrupt the flow.
In "#Legionary quarry", "be seen today" appears in two proximate sentences.
In "#Foundation", "baths for the soldiers to maintain hygiene" > is it necessary to explain what baths are for? A similar explanation appears elsewhere in the article (in #Legionary baths).
Consistency: centuries are mostly spelled out ("first" and "second") but "1st and 2nd century" appears in #Foundation.
Repetition: Two explanations of building started in the 70s in #Foundation.
Repetition: Numerous explanations of buildings being rebuilt in stone.
I've had a go at copy editing some of the article myself, I think it's better but probably not complete. I've done the things you suggests (apart from the translation of canabae legionis, it means something of the legion or legionary something) and would appreciate it if you could take another look and give some more suggestions. Nev1 (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Canabae legionis = Huts (or wine-booths) of the legion. Camp-followers, I suppose, in modern army speak.
Self-nomination. This video game article has been brought to GA-class and been rated as a Wikiproject A-class material one year ago. It has been brought to a recent peer review and has several issues pertaining to FA criteria resolved. For the issue of prose and grammar, I have rewritten the article for easy readability (tools indicate an average of grade 8–9 — 13&14 years old). I am nominating it for FA because I believe the article fulfills the criteria. Jappalang (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The links from Blizzard and Bethesda just say that the site awarded those companies some awards. IGN links show that they noted reviews on the site. Helpful, but still not a total reliablity gauge. Ealdgyth - Talk13:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Aside from the GameZone endorsement, I have yet to find anything to support it. (Sean Nagasawa was credited as a Hardcore Tester in the Guitar Hero III manual, but...) Jappalang (talk) 00:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Digital Entertainment News is a small 2-year old site and (DEN is older than 2 years but its current website underwent a redesign 2 years back, hence the 2006 copyright) has an editorial system in place. News 4 Gamers have acknowledged their reviews.[29]Jappalang (talk) 09:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
DEN is based in Seattle. It seems it has a reputation in Seattle. Its Editor-in-Chief, Daniel Pelfrey, has contributed an article on video games in The Seattle Times. He has also been invited to a panel at the Seattle Sputnik (the Seattle area chapter of the International Game Developers Association) to talk about the games industry and its media.[30] The Annual Elan Awards (Canadian Awards for Electronic and Animated Arts) consider DEN as part of their press listings.[31]Jappalang (talk) 13:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hm. This is borderline on the "considered an expert in the field" type of thing. I think I'll leave this out for others to decide for themselves. Probably, assuming that the information it is sourcing isn't that controversial, it might qualify. Ealdgyth - Talk02:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Despite its small startup, Spong has an editoral system in place. According to their About page, they also host and maintain press and trade sites for companies like Nintendo, THQ, Midway, System 3 and Ubisoft. Jappalang (talk) 09:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Turns out there are several blogs/forums/opinions on Spong's reliability. It appears to be a professional "tabloid" website in which truths can be found along with inaccurate news. I have replaced all citations from Spong with more reliable sources—Famitsu, GameSpot, and 1UP.com. Jappalang (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Turns out there are a few blogs and forums postings that can put doubts on its reliability per Wikipedia standards. I have replaced this site with GameSpot and IGN sources. Jappalang (talk) 09:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was using it to act as the source for the Ninja Gaiden Sigma T-shirt deal. I think Destructoid is a similar deal to Kotaku. Reliability should be proven per each editor. I have no idea of how William Haley is regarded in the industry. I can replace the site with Ottsel's blog. Ottsel (real name: Jack DeVries) is the Contributing Editor for IGN's Nintendo Team. On his blog, he talked of his days at GameStop where he handed out the T-shirt with Ninja Gaiden Sigma. Is that an acceptable WP:SPS as a source? Alternatively, I can remove the Destructoid site without a replacement since the T-shirt deal is sort of non-controvesial. Jappalang (talk) 09:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is the website of the United States branch of figurine maker Kotobukiya. It is used to report the lineup of the Ninja Gaiden figures. As such, it is a primary source and reliable. Jappalang (talk) 09:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, in previous FACs, we seem to have reached the decision that Kotaku is reliable on a case by case basis, depending on whether the writer of the reference being used is well known in the video game industry. Explain why current ref 91 Brian Ashcraft "Win Signed Ninja Gaiden..." is reliable.
I replaced the reference with the Japanese article from Famitsu, which Ashcraft had reported the translation of. Famitsu is certainly a reliable publication of video games news. Jappalang (talk) 09:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Same for current ref 92 Michael Mcwhertor "Ninja Gaiden Sigma Gets Collectors..."
I replaced it with the press release by Tecmo, which was released by Business Wire.
Fails criteria 1a - lots of places in which the prose could be improved. The flow in the lead is terrible. Consider re-writing the lead, so that it is two concise paragraphs.
The quote at the start of the Gameplay section doesn't add anything - it's not even explained or mentioned later on at all.
"Each region usually has a linear path connecting its entrances. Encounters populate this path and several off the path areas." - Huh? I'm not following this.
"It follows the pacing of a typical action-adventure game;" - The pacing?
" The game measures how well players do against four standards:" ...Consider instead: "The game measures players against four standards" or " The game measures player success against four standards"
"The Video game remakes Ninja Gaiden Black and Sigma introduced another game mode called Mission Mode comprising short sessions of combat." - Consider this instead: "The video game remakes Ninja Gaiden Black and Sigma introduced Mission Mode, comprising short sessions of combat."
I have focused on the first section "Gameplay" - please find someone to copy-edit all sections.
Oppose - The article's use of non-free images fails our policy WP:NFCC.
The two box covers at the bottom of the article are clearly both decorative, while the screenshots appear to be chosen at random and do not greatly increase the reader's understanding of the article (WP:NFCC#8). Black Kite20:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the box covers and an image in the Story subsection. I have replaced the image in the Gameplay section with a GIF that demonstrates the benefits of ultimate techniques. For the image at the start of the Plot and settings section, its caption has been altered to fit the context. Do these actions address your concerns? Jappalang (talk) 00:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If I may chime in here...I personally think the GIF makes it worse. It distracts the reader and since it's so tiny, it really doesn't show a lot or add anything to the article. — Wackymacs (talk) 07:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Does not meet the requirements of 1a. Examples culled from the beginning:
"Team Ninja had developed the game" Why the perfect here?
"Although it used ...it moved" Ambiguous "it".
Second paragraph awkwardly jumps from one disparate topic to another.
"Team Ninja went on working on the game" Continued working on the game?
"this carried on in" Ambiguous "this". What is being "carried on"?
"The Ninja Gaiden saga goes on in..." More use of crude "go on".
"Encounters populate this path " What?
"several off the path areas" What punctuation is missing here?
"There are dragon busts scattered in the regions serving" Awkward passive when active is stronger and works perfectly fine.
"third person"
"and even run up" Why the "even" qualifier? Sounds more like press release material instead of an encyclopedic article.
"It follows the pacing of a typical" The clause after the semicolon describes the structure, not the pacing.
"The Video game remakes " Video is capitalized because?
"to complete a difficulty to unlock the next harder difficulty." Confusing to laypersons.
"God of War lead combat engine designer" What is God of War and what's its relation to Ninja Gaiden (i.e. why is the article talking about this particular designer and his views on Ninja Gaiden)? Link needs disambig. BuddingJournalist16:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator: Last year, I was involved in successful a drive to get the article to GA status. At that point we worked to a peer review that was more stringent than required for GA, with a view to eventually reaching FA. Since then, the core contributors have made quite a few minor changes and tweaks, and the idea of nominating it for FA has been thrown around. Here's the nomination. Even if unsuccessful, this is likely to drive work to bring the article to FA status. (Also, given the topic, this is an article that really should be one Wikipedia's best.) Kieran (talk) 15:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The contributor of that image, Frank Schulenburg, is a fairly prominent WP member (on the board for de). I've dropped him a message on his talk page to ask for details on the picture's origins. In the worst case, we could remove it, or find a verified alternate source. (Obviously the underlying painting is out of copyright, but we need to ensure that the 2-dimensional representation was taken in a country where this does not generate a new copyright, or if not that the originator released it under a WP-compatible license.) -Kieran (talk) 01:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current refs 1, 2, 3 "Waterloo orders of battle" are lacking publisher infomration and last access dates. Also, what makes this a reliable site?
Same for current ref 6 (1815 calendar)
Current ref 10 is just "Chandler" ... lacking a page number here.
I'm on the road again, and the link checker tool doesn't like this hotel's ISP, I am getting a LOT of timeout errors, which I suspect are related to the hotel ISP. Ealdgyth - Talk02:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the Orders of Battle refs, there is a wiki page Order of Battle of the Waterloo Campaign so referencing this page might be more internally consistent.
I can certainly defend the reference to the Napoleon Series site http://www.napoleon-series.org/index.html, it is without doubt the premier web-site for Napoleonic History. Its editor-in-chief is a published author in the field and many other published authors, including academics, have contributed articles to the site or are regular habitues of the discussion pages. The level of scholarship of the content of the site is second to none.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/cpcook/letters/pages/waterloorha.htm contains a verbatim extract from a book written by an eyewitness of the battle (Captain Cavalie Mercer of the Royal Horse Artillery). However, the whole book is on Googlebooks so the reference could be switched to this and give page numbers quite easily.
on this one, I don't honestly know. I retain some concerns that the sourcing isn't showing a great deal of newer sources, nor academic sources. This is the Battle of Waterloo, I'm pretty sure it's been studied by academic historians recently? But, this is well past my own field of study or my own interests. I'm not a Napoleonic scholar or student, and thus I can't for sure say that the sourcing isn't the best that it could be. I'm still on the road, so I can't do any sort of checking in my own library, so I'm going to leave these out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. The book sources used are certainly fine, although I'm not entirely sure about the website Napoleon Series, it does sound at least somewhat reliable. I'd like to see some third party coverage of the site as being reliable/noteworthy/etc. Ealdgyth - Talk04:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned by the list of sources as well. I haven't gone through and matched each note to each sentence yet, but I will later this weekend. I was wondering if the editors could describe how they did their research? The first list of "suggested books" I turned to failed to include these nineteenth-century sources and did include many more twentieth-century sources. If we could know something about the research methodology that went into the article, perhaps we would be reassured. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 16:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Each of the editors will have to speak for him/herself. I myself used Peter Hofschroers works on the subject, as a basis for adding the sections about Prussian participation then cross checked with Col. Chesney's work, then back referenced to Barbero's work on the subject. One of the tougher things about this subject is the amount of bad history that has been done on it. One has only to look at the history channel to be sorely disappointed in a most recent example. National bias is another problem with this battle and everything has to be checked against various books to be sure nothing has been erm... slanted. The article use to be one of raging blogs on the editing section when the editors stood together and insisted that nothing would be added to the article without citation and that editorial comments would be kept to a minimum and insisting on a "just the facts" presentation without elaboration and with accurate citation. The authors that I chose were Hofschorer 20th century(German sourcing unavailable in most books), Chesney (19th century Chair of the Sandhurst Military College), and Barbero 21st century (Head of the History department of an Italian College). If any of these were debateable Hofschroer would be that source because of his approach that Germanic speaking populations were mostly to be credited for the victory (ie 75% of the troops involved on the allied side) which was not embraced by the English historians all that warmly. Even in this case I found him to be balanced in his approach and his sources were Prussian regimental histories not available but through his works in English and even in this case it was checked against Chesney and Barbero for accuracy and weight lent on who had the best sourcing available. In some cases this was Chesney as he still had access to the German General Staff's histories that were mostly lost at the end of WW2, in most others it was Hofschroers. In no case was a novel view allowed into the article but rather only when there was in a broad sense a concurence did I go forward. Tirronan (talk) 18:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The whole subject is a minefield of varying bias, often nationalistic in origin, by historians and authors. Anyone writing an encyclopaedic treatment is continually treading a tightrope. Recently there has been controversy over a book by David Hamilton-Williams (Waterloo: New Perspectives: The Great Battle Reappraised) over veracity of sources. The same could be said of Hofschroer in regards to his reappraisal of how Wellington treated his Prussian allies and how early he knew of Napoleon's advance across the Belgian frontier. Thus even recent works cannot be viewed as canonical. The treatment of the work of earlier historians is also moot, W. Siborne wrote his history of the Waterloo campaign in the 1840s, Hamilton-Williams regards him as being unreliable at best and deliberately anti-Dutch-Belgian at worst, whilst Hofschroer thinks highly of his work. Barbero's book, he being an Italian, is refreshingly free of nationalistic bias, though I consider it has a number of mistakes of interpretation and a few instances of factual error. There is no particular merit in the referencing of more recent works over referencing older ones, once due consideration for jingoism in older books is taken into account, indeed the older works would be written when their audience included veterans of the battle and woe betide any author who made a blunder as rebuttals would come thick and fast in contemporary journals. In short any encyclopaedia entry written must be a mosaic of sources in order for a balanced, or reasonably balanced, view to be obtained. Urselius (talk) 12:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these very lucid answers. I am the process of digging up reviews of the various books listed in the bibliography. This will take me a while.
I've now read a bibliographic essay on sources important for Napoleonic history. It points to Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon (which this article uses) and calls it the standard work on Napoleonic military history but notes that "on the whole [it] puts a favourable gloss on Napoleon's genius as a commander". Apparently Chandler also wrote a supplementary volume entitled On the Napoleonic Wars not used here. The article lists several other important works not used in the article: Owen Connelly's Blundering to Glory (1988), which presents Napoleon in a less favorable light than Chandler, and Charles Esdaile's The Wars of Napoleon, which deals with the structure of the armies and the the "wider, political, social, and economic repercussions of the wars" across Europe, something missing from the article.
The essay also describes recent trends in Napoleonic historiography, such as the revisionism that began around 1969 and 1970. This revisionism, which affected French Revolution historiography as well, "tended to shift the emphasis more towards the underlying structure of the Napoleonic regime....it is now fashionable to view the Revolutionary and Napoleonic 'experience' not so much as a succession of ruptures which ended in military dictatorship, but more as an evolving process with important themes of continuity across the whole period". This change in historiography was so important that it was taught in my undergraduate class. I am curious how this affected the coverage of the Battle of Waterloo in particular. Does anyone know? I haven't the time to dig through all of the books listed in the essay here. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 16:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To put another POV, why should we care to note in the battle article much about the regime of an international outlaw who usurped power for less than 100 days? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 08:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Review of modern sources
Adkin: I question the use of Adkin, which according to a review I read by Clifford Harmon from VMI in the Journal of Military History, is a coffee table book without references and an unhelpful bibliography. According to the review, the bibliography also reveals "an almost total lack of French sources" which handicaps Adkins analysis. While the reviewer says that the book has its good points - bringing history alive - I'm not sure that this is the type of source we want to be using.
Barbero: Not reviewed in academic journals.
Chandler: Recommended as standard history of Napoleonic military history in Geoffrey Ellis's bibliographic essay.
Longford: At the time Longford's book came out, it was praised for its readability and its attention to the private details of Wellington's life. Her ability to portray battles accurately was at times questioned. I do not know what the current opinion is of this book or whether it has been surpassed, but I'm not sure this is the best Wellington book to be using for the Waterloo article. Thoughts?
Hofschroer: Acknowledging the nationalistic bias problem, reviewers have noted that Hofschroer has done an important service in bringing the German sources to light but point out that he argues his case is a bit too strongly, saying that "no serious British historian has ever sought to deny the fact that Wellington's army was in its majority German, Dutch, and Belgain....In consequence, Hofschroer doth protest too much, whilst he is at times as parti pris as the writers he criticises". It seems to me that the editors have tried to cancel out these biases.
Roberts: Not reviewed in academic journals.
Weller: Not reviewed in academic journals.
I will look for non-academic reviews of these other books, but it does not fill me with confidence that there are no academic reviews of them. Awadewit (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - I have read the article over once and am now reading it again, much more slowly as I look at the notes. Here are my initial comments.
The lead needs to be rewritten - it is choppy, especially at the end. This is Waterloo! Let's be eloquent.
I would suggest a copy edit by Roger Davies. He writes military history articles and is a good copy editor.
There is next to nothing in the article explaining the battle's political significance. I would suggest adding a "Background" section on the Napoleonic Wars so that readers know what is ending with Waterloo. I would also suggest expanding the "Aftermath" section. This battle was a major event in society - that needs to be emphasized and explained. Societies that been at war for a generation suddenly were not anymore (this is currently covered in a tiny paragraph).
I would suggest adding an "Overview" section so that the reader knows where the article is going. It is a bit hard to follow everything without some sort of guide.
There are too many large quotations - cut some of them out and integrate the others into the article more thorough. Many of them are just sitting there without much explanation. Also, they are all call-out quotes. According to WP:MOSQUOTE, they should only be blockquotes.
Adkin has received a generally good reception amongst those active in writing within the field. I would admit that his bibliography and references are not the finest; as an accessible synthesis it is probably the best single volume available - I think it is far better and more detailed than Chandler's Waterloo volume. Generally the Napoleonic Wars are a field in which the "talented amateur" is recognised as having a valuable role, it isn't seen as being the sole preserve of the academic (unlike certain other periods of history knowledge of extinct languages is not a prerequisite).
As to the wider implications you cite I would emphasise that this is an entry on the battle itself, there is a separate wiki page on the Waterloo Campaign (or 100 Days - I can't remember the exact title) which should, in my opinion, be the place for wider political comment and background.
OK, I've changed the quotes to be blockquotes. (I think we decided we liked the way the cquotes looked, but I see that that formatting is only intended for real call-out quotes). As for length and number - the purpose of many was to convey a sense of the battle, to make the article more accessible. Some convey fact, but quite a few convey a very human and often poetic sense of the events of the battle. But, if the consensus is to winnow them down, we winnow them down.
I've also done a minor copyedit of the lead, but it probably needs more work to be truly eloquent. It's occurred to me that, while the article deals mostly with the events of the battle, only 1/4 of the lead does so, suggesting that it maybe needs some rebalancing?
I wonder if an overview might not be a bad idea. Are there examples of a good one? I've found allusions to it in the style guide, but not very concrete suggestions as to how it should be structured. (e.g. should it follow "This article begins with a discussion of ..." form)
If background were to be added, I think it should be very brief. Perhaps a summarised version of the Napoleonic Wars article, drawing heavily on the content in the lead? -Kieran (talk) 00:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if this is what Awa meant, but my similar comments below did not mean the wider context of the whole Napoleonic Wars, but the very specific context of Waterloo. For example there is no link to (our very poor stub on) Waterloo Day, which was virtually a national holiday in Britain for most of the 19th century, nor to the famous disruption on the financial markets, and the Rothschild's coup with the pigeons. Hundred Days will be no use here either. For FA, with such an epoch-making battle, a narrow military historical approach is not enough. Some highlights from the predictably poor Waterloo in popular culture should go in a final section, and the Prince Regent's shameless claims to have participated are another indicator of the battle's status in the British psyche, which was nearly matched in that of the French - diplomatic awkwardnesses around both Waterloo Station, terminus until now of the Eurostar, and the Waterloo Chamber at Windsor, both regularly feature in the British press. Johnbod (talk) 16:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've started work on this section, as suggested. It still needs some POV-balancing (very anglo-centric so far) and some more sources (I can't get at most of the historical articles on the topic of the cultural/sociological impact of the battle). It's a start, though. -Kieran (talk) 00:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because what (I think) the several reviewers who have raised similar points are after is not a list of computer games featuring Waterloo but an attempt at a brief encyclopedic treatment of the enormous impact of the battle on the rest of the 19th century outside the sphere of pure military history. Johnbod (talk) 13:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And I think it opens up a can of worms, better to add any such points to aftermath. Because thinks like "The fact that Waterloo Station was, from 1994 until 2008, the landing point for French visitors to the country arriving on the Eurostar, was found insulting by some French even in modern times." and "with references in modern literature, including Asterix," is not the sort of think we need in this article. But I suggest we discuss this further on the talk page of the article. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: A family issue has very suddenly arisen that requires my attention. I will not be able to continue reviewing this article until about a week from now. I'm very sorry. Awadewit (talk) 15:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've looked at Chandler as a source but found his work to be rather the light weight compared to other authors already covered here. Although a noted era author on the period when it came to this article it has very much got to be to the point of "this unit at this time did this to this effect" to be terribly useful. Perhaps another look at the overview will be required though this is covered in the Waterloo campaign. Tirronan (talk) 05:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Very good, but needs a thorough check over. I have copy-edited some points, but one of the specialists should go over it.
I have desized some of the pictures, per MoS, but without using "upright". They look ok to me, but upright could be used to reduce them. Others are still very small, and more commons images could be added. Personally I would make the map of the battle full-size across the screen.
Something about the Rothschilds and their pigeons? The reception of the news in general? In general the article could do with a wider scope - I had to add Lord Uxbridge's leg to see also.
Comment (Sorry for my poor English, I'm French). Very good narrative of the battle, but in my opinion the article lacks : 1) A part about the historiography of the battle - there is much to say about how the battle has been seen by academic researchers and taught in school (in England as in France). 2) A part about the paintings depicting the battle, pop culture (ABBA...) - I know there is a specific article, but it's only a list and it should be summarized in the main article. --Bsm15 (talk) 08:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Commenting on recent historiography could open a can of worms. Law suits have been filed by some of the authors involved in recent spats, we might not want to go there! Urselius (talk) 08:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean commenting, but quoting appropriately the main authors on the subject and putting in perspective their theses ; it will provide a global perspective on the battle the article lacks of now, IMO. --Bsm15 (talk) 10:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is a very bad idea. If ever there was a battle where nationalism still plays a very strong hand this is it. All you will be doing is summing up these different views: The Brits won the battle despite their other allies, with a little bit of help late in the day from the Prussians to help mop up. The British were loosing until the Prussians turned up and won the Battle. The French lost only because the Emperor -- the finest general who has ever graced a battlefield -- was unwell and his dull subordinates failed to execute his brilliant plan properly. What about the Dutch? AND DON'T FORGET THE BELGIANS! --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 16:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I've always liked Brigadier Gerard explanation "So high was the spirit of France at that time that every other spirit would have quailed before it; but these people, these English, had neither spirit nor soul, but only solid, immovable beef, against which we broke ourselves in vain. That was it, my friends! On the one side, poetry, gallantry, self-sacrifice--all that is beautiful and heroic. On the other side,beef. Our hopes, our ideals, our dreams--all were shattered on that terrible beef of Old England." --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 16:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Now what? Most (or all?) of the minor issues (references, copy, images) seem to have been addressed. However, we seem to be at an impassé about histiography and/or popular culture. The FA reviewers have requested sections dealing with this, while the main contributors to the article are opposed. Certainly, lookingatotherfeaturedbattles the Waterloo article as it stands seems to fit with the structure of these without delving into histiography. Can we have some discussion to decide whether or not it is necessary, as this seems to be the only sticking point now? -Kieran (talk) 23:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Oppose. Currently tagged for a merger and not a single internal link. Please check out What is a featured article? if you haven't already. Among other problems, the article is not well written (poor prose, contractions used, contains a "conclusion" section), it only uses one source, and the diagrams (while appreciated) are of low quality.-Wafulz (talk) 12:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—Wafulz has given a good list of improvements needed, so I won't add too much more. I would suggest you withdraw the FAC for now, resolve the proposed merge, find additional sources, and either submit the article Wikipedia:Peer review or find interested editors who can help you improve the article. Pagrashtak14:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - can this be closed early, as this article is FAR from being of any acceptable standard, let alone featured article. --ZimZalaBimtalk15:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose - The other reviewers are right. I would like to see a better reason for nominating an article than "because". Also, any article that hasn't been rated at all will likely be a poor FAC. Listen to Pagrashtak and put it up for peer review. It needs a ton of work to even be a Good article. Giants2008 (talk) 17:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The article is less than two weeks old. As mentioned, no internal link, a single source. It's apparent this article needs more work before being considered. --Porqin (talk) 16:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose I don't know what else I can say about it that hasn't already been said. No wikilinks, relies upon a single source, written more like a manual than an article... and those photos of a guy standing in his laundry room??? I know we're not supposed to judge an article based on the quality of the photos but sheesh... those are terrible, no offense. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 09:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
No, that does not make it a reliable source. I can create a website devoted to Arkansas history and write some articles with citations, too, but that doesn't make it reliable. Is he a noted scholar of Arkansas history? If not, this doesn't appear to be a reliable source; use the sources he provides instead.
Current ref 2 "From Turbulence to Tranquility .." is lacking publisher information. Also current refs 6, 7 and 12 which are the same website, different parts.
"The auction was actually a public one and nearly caused a riot" - what auction/ This is the first time one has been mentioned - appropriated makes it sound like the gov't just took the land
Thats the idea I got from what I've read as well, but I removed the bit about the riot because it came from the "unreliable source" --The_stuart (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
a sentence that begins with a number (such as $14,000) should have the number written out
this sentence is awkward; " On January 15, 1861 the state legislature had determined to hold a referendum on February 18 to determine if a state convention should be held to consider the issue of secession and to elect delegates to such a convention" (too many determines and dates in quick succession)
Oppose. Interesting topic, but numerous MOS issues and the prose should be improved to allow better flow within paragraphs. There are also some referencing issues.
Need metric conversion for all standard units: acres should also include hectares and ft should include m
the first paragraph doesn't seem to be organized that well; should be rewritten for better flow
need a citation immediately after a quotation even if the next citation covers that (just in case someone later inserts text)
The first paragraph in the Civil War section needs better transition between thoughts; I understand why the telegraph message is important to the section but it seems to be just dropped into the paragrpah.
The first part of this sentence does not make much sense "The item was intended simply as a piece of news, but telegraph lines quickly spread the news through out the state, fueling procession sentiment" (and do you mean "procession" or "pro-secession"?)
I'd like to see a sentence or two about the standoff between the governor and the troops added to the lead
I think this sentence is missing a word or two "The building was drastically altered the inside and outside"
There is no publisher listed for ref 2 (From Turbulence to Tranquility: The Little Rock Arsenal Part 1. ) I see now that several other of the refs come from this site and none have publishers listed
No publisher listed for ref 12 ("Bernie Babcock Gained Fame as Author")
I'm nominating this article for featured article because
I believe this meets all FA criteria. The article recently went through a rigerous GAN and subsequent cleanup. There are no {{fact}} tags or any remaining issues from the GAN. The only issue could be a bit of jargon in the meteorological sypnosis. The article was revied by a WP:SEVERE member who understands some of the complex terms. Otherwise, I believe all statements are referenced using Cite Web fully. Thank you, Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 01:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment While I believe that this is by far one of the WP:SEVERE's best articles, I have just a couple minor comments. First, could you add UTCs to the Meteorological Synopsis? Second, ref 15 isn't working right. After these things are addressed, I will support. JuliancoltonTropicalCyclone01:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ReplyWell, I have fixed the format issue, but dicovered the link does not work. I am not the best at finding archived NWS statements, in fact I never have except for the archived warnings from WFO OUN. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 01:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I didn't say this before, but I just noticed that some of the references have accessdates, and some don't. It's not the end of the world, but I'd prefer to see consistency in the refs. JuliancoltonTropicalCyclone01:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That could be a problem. On the link checker, it says all links are OK, but obviously some of the references don't work. You could put [dead link] in the ref for the time being, and I'll try to find a replacement for you. JuliancoltonTropicalCyclone02:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed ref 100. I would have to agree that those are not really reliable, but they are the only things out there for those statements. The high risk statement definately has to stay to show how historic this outbreak was. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 14:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's from April. It was February 10, 1998, just a derecho over the Gulf Coast Probably not very many, if any references can be found about it, and if there are any, I doubt that it will refer to the high risk. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 19:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. There is some rather awkward writing in this article:
"Temperatures across many areas reached the 70s°F (21–26 °C) with local reports in the low 80s°F (27 °C) across portions of Alabama with dewpoint temperatures in the mid–60s°F (17–20 °C)". With ... with, portions of Alabama?
"... hail as large as softballs". Is that big? I'm not from the US, so I don't know how large a softball is.
"In Arkansas, the 13 fatalities were the most fatalities since 25 were killed during the Benton, Arkansas Tornado Outbreak on 1 March 1997." How do you kill a fatality?
"Some of the most powerful storms were situated across the Memphis and Jackson areas between 23:00 UTC and 00:30 UTC while numerous other tornadoes were reported across northern Mississippi northwest of Tupelo, Mississippi ...". Does the "while" mean that these other tornadoes also occurred between 23:00 and 00:30?
"A record five tornado emergency declarations were issued, four located in Tennessee ..." That doesn't sound right, "located" in?
"The first of the long-track supercells of the outbreak, and the longest continuous track of any single tornado, developed about 5:00 pm ..." The article was using UTC earlier.
2. Right, but readers not from the U.S. will not be familiar with that comparison. Try to find a more universal size comparison.
3. The repetition of "fatalities" is ungainly (you can cut the second one safely). "were killed" is currently modifying "fatalities", but storms can't kill fatalities (nor can anything else). They can, however, kill people; insert "people" after 25.
Weak Oppose. There is much to like about this article. It's informative and it seems to be well researched. My only reservation is that it is not well enough written to be considered of the professional standard demanded of FAs. I have fixed the points I raised in my comment above, but they were only examples. "... the first such issuance in February since 10 February 1998" Is "issuance" even a word? The article needs some polishing, probably best done by someone with fresh eyes. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All of the issues brought up by Budding Journalist have been rectified. As for the boldface, it is used for what it is designed for, emphasis. I will put the first mention of an EF rating in context. Once again, issuance is a word, look at the English Wikitionary. I am going to bring in a outside person who is a grammar whiz to look at the article. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 22:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Boldface: 1. It is project standard, and 2.I don't see how italics really emphasize anything. As for the prose, I just went through the article with the grammar whiz mentioned above on the phone. I believe I have rectified all prose issues. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 00:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
? The use of italics for emphasis is standard not only in Wikipedia (by consensus), but also in almost any other publication. Could you point me to the project's rationale for overriding MOS? I also don't see why the risks and EF ratings need to be emphasized. BuddingJournalist00:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The risks and EF ratings are key elements to the synoptic history of the system, and therefore need to be bolded. Besides, it's project standards. I don't see any reason why it should be any different. JuliancoltonTropicalCyclone01:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, just leave it alone. I have done everthing possible for this article, but people seem to think I am lazy and don't want to do anything. Do not expect me to respond to anymore messages for a long time. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 01:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody think you're lazy. Remember, this is FAC, and a featured article has to be perfect, so people are very strict when reviewing articles. Don't take it personally. JuliancoltonTropicalCyclone01:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any reason why this article should be withdrawn either. But the issues raised do have have to be addressed, not just shrugged off. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason to withdraw either, especially if Juliancolton is willing to take over the nom if SKYWARN goes on wikibreak. "people seem to think I am lazy and don't want to do anything" I have seen no evidence of anyone thinking that you are lazy, and I certainly hope that I'm not included in the "people" you cite. No one thinks you're lazy. FACs can certainly be frustrating, but remember that reviewers are commenting on the article, not editors. Please don't take criticisms of the article personally. BuddingJournalist02:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-nomination. As Mary Seacole's initial GA nominator, I have improved the article from B status to GA, and significant changes occured during that process which helped develop the article and gave a good general copy-edit to the article. I'll do my best to address those concerns that are brought up. Rudget (Help?) 18:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Thousands of troops from all the countries involved were drafted to the area, disease broke out almost immediately, and hundreds died of fever (mostly cholera);" - sounds wrong(?) -- Naerii18:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, want very much to support if the follow are changed:
This phrase: an inexperienced doctor sent by the Panamanian government, and the Catholic church, which paraded images of saints and prayed for divine intervention sounds a bit disparaging to Catholics, and although it may have been true, to keep this language, you'll have to cite the statement.
I read this sentence three times: Salih notes the use of a white American pidgin vernacular, contrasting with Seacole's clear English, as an inversion of renditions of "black" speech in contemporary literature, and as a claim of moral and intellectual superiority and still was unable to understand it. Can you rewrite it?
Re-worded. I've tried my best to understand it myself, but as I wasn't the original author of that statement, I interpreted in a more simpler sense. Rudget (Help?) 12:11, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a disjointed edit that never got rewritten properly: On one occasion attending wounded troops under fire she dislocated her right thumb, an injury which never healed entirely;[61] she often treated French, Sardinian and Russian casualties alike.
There's no punctuation at the end of this sentence: over 1,000 artists performed, including 11 military bands and an orchestra conducted by Louis Antoine Jullien. The festival was attended by a crowd of 40,000[82]
A citation is needed here: "I have witnessed her devotion and her courage ... and I trust that England will never forget one who has nursed her sick, who sought out her wounded to aid and succour them and who performed the last offices for some of her illustrious dead"
Done. I'm pretty sure this quotation in this page came after the publishing of the English Heritage article, so to that end, I don't believe EH have copied content from the article. Rudget (Help?) 12:11, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed a couple evident copy edit issues. I suggest a fine tooth comb to make sure it's all taken care of.
The last three sentences need to be made into a single paragraph.
I enjoyed reading this article. I think you'll have to do some editing, but after the prose is worked out, it will make a nice FA. --Moni3 (talk) 20:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. This sentence drives me nuts because I still can't understand it: Salih notes the use of American pidgin, against Seacole's clear English, as representational of a supposed white moral and intellectual superiority. Would it be accurate to say "Historian Salih notes that Seacole used American pidgin to satirize the assumed white moral and intellectual superiority, since she used her own clear English in everyday speech"?
Comment - I also enjoyed this article and hope it achieves RA status but have a few questions/comments:
In the lede the sentence "She operated boarding houses in Panama and Crimea while treating the sick." gave me the impression this was simultaneously & could be reworded.
Is the paragraph "West Indies was a lucrative outpost of the British Empire....." particularly relevant to the life of Mary Seacole? Although setting the context it doesn't seem immediately relevant.
Are there any supporting references for the "hundreds who died" in 1854 in the Crimea (or even more accurate figures) as the level of cholera, as this seems to be a significant factor?
I'm not sure about the phrase "Florence Nightingale took against Seacole" I know what you mean & it is supported in the subsequent paragraph, but is an unusual form of words.
I don't understand "both a Miss Nightingale and a Soyer" - what is a Soyer? does this relate to Alexis Soyer mentioned earlier? or the Soyer who described her young relative later in the same section?
Back in London in 1856 we find her "considered setting up shop with Day in Aldershot, Hampshire, but nothing materialised" & later in the same paragraph we find her closing the shop.
As a nurse I was vaguely aware of her contribution in the Crimea but I've learnt a lot from reading this article.— Rodtalk21:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There also appear to be several broken external links (at least when I checked)
Thanks I've struck through the ones I'm happy are sorted but there are a couple of others where I can't see what change has been made or that it has resolved the issue.— Rodtalk13:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/ is a concern. When I've checked their articles on subjects I know, they are very simplistic and seem designed to reach a juvenile audience. While I've yet to catch them wrong on a fact, they definitely give a school child version of history. I would be leery of using them for much beyond basic facts or as a second source to buttress another source.
Like I said below, it's very hard to find any substantive resources out there, and so consequently only an autobiography, a few books and simplistic historical view by a school-orientated website are able to supply "good" references. I apologise for not using any other sources, but in the absence of them and the similarities between other FAs with a reliance upon autobiographies, I'd keep it as is for now. Rudget (Help?) 12:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 6 "Who's Who in British History" is the full bibliographical information given elsewhere in the notes? I'm not seeing it in the References section...
Since you list it in the references by Seacole, and only give Salih as the editor much further into the reference, you should either list the Salih ref as a separate title if you're using a long introduction written by Salih as a separate source, or just ref it as Seacole. Ealdgyth - Talk13:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 50 "Spartacus Schoolnet" is lacking publisher and last access date. Also, see above for concerns about this site. It's also lacking a true title since the title of the page linked to is "Florence Nightengale"
Large chunks of the article appear to be referenced to her own autobiography? That would be a concern about relying too much on her own primary accounts.
The problem is that with the events happening over 150 years ago, its hard to find any other sources available for the article, and so consequently there is no other choice but to use the autobiography (and other reliable sources) as the primary references. Rudget (Help?) 12:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've pointed out some Google Scholar refs I found on a quick search. Not sure if you're able to get a hold of them or not. Ealdgyth - Talk13:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 96 is actually linked to the Spartacus web page on Secole, not to a Punch magazine article. If you are using the quotation on the Spartacus site, you really should state that it's quoted on that site, because the current footnote implies you're using the Punch magazine article direct, not through an intermediary source.
They are links to published journal articles, not to the articles themselves. You'd need to either have JSTOR access, get someone with JSTOR access to get the articles for you, or get them through your library. I'll also note that she has an Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article, that should probably be consulted and would be a good source for basic information on her life. If you can't access it yourself, leave me a note here and email me and I'll email you the article. Ealdgyth - Talk13:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is a good list of scholarly sources of the kind that should be used to source a bio; I usually pay for PubMed articles, or ask a friend to e-mail them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Asking a friend (who has paid for access to a database/JSTOR or similar service) to provide copies of these materials, may be a breach of a licence agreement and probably should not be recommended here.— Rodtalk19:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You've got some assumptions in parentheses. Anyway, Rudget, the PubMed articles can be ordered thru Medline, or obtained in a medical library, and they are the kinds of sources that would be good to access. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a brilliant article and a real pleasure to read, the prose is superb. For an
encyclopedic article, I can't praise it highly enough, what a fascinating woman and an amazing life. There were some inconsistencies with British English spelling, but I think I got to most of them but please check. I don't understand the policy on linking of dates yet, so please check this too. (I saw an August 1926 that was not linked, but other dates were). Lastly—and this is probably not actionable—I don't like the spelling of Tchernaya. Chernaya means black in Russian and begins with the letter Ч (Ch)not Ц (Ts). But I see this erroneous transliteration is quite common, I will probably have to live with it. Oh, and well done by the way for another Wikipedia treasure. GrahamColmTalk12:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I did the GA review with a recommendation that the copyediting and prose be tightened before FAC, and this seems to have been largely addresses. Two points that ought to be fixed
refs 2,3 and 5 in the intro do not follow punctuation, contra MoS
Oppose for now, mostly to do with comprehensiveness concerns and missed opportunities.
Perhaps spell out the feud with Nightingale in more detail? It wouldn't hurt to mention Nightingale's barking mad behaviour on her return to the UK.
Allegations of profiteering from the British Hotel?
Reasons why the British Hotel failed? (Overstocked when the end of the war came.)
Put the average nurse of the period into context? Nightingale's general fears were not unfounded: many were alcoholic old biddies, ex-tarts well past their sell-by date etc
Reasons why the UK benefits failed? (Extravagant expenses incurred by the promoters.)
Social climbing? The bizarre bequests in her will to members of the royal family (who didn't need it).
More on Alexis Soyer? Chief chef of (I think) the Savoy in London at the time. He had a government brief to improve Crimean diet and invented a special field kitchen for the campaign.
The term "doctress" was used by Seacole of herself too.
For most of these, I can write about them (especially the one regarding Nightingale), but I can't find any sources at all to back up the statements I could potentially make. Would that be a problem? On a side note, does not the article cover all of these aspects in its present revision? Some of these requests I don't find particularly practical, and with those comments in brackets to the left it appears to promote some sort of a POV siding with Mary Seacole against the introduction of Nightingale's perspective, I would be hesitant to add them. Rudget (Help?) 14:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you'll find all my remarks covered in Robinson as it's the only biography of Seacole I've read. I don't think I'm introducing an anti-Nightingale POV as my remarks about the state of nurses back her view. --ROGER DAVIEStalk14:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ack, I know. I just don't want to be responsible for including potentially, what could be portrayed as, "damaging" material to an article with only one source to back them up. I've got some other content being forwarded to me however, that might help further. Rudget (Help?) 14:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A few points on the lead:
"Seacole was taught herbal remedies and folk medicine by her mother, who kept a boarding house for disabled Crimean war veterans" - I doubt Seacole's mother put up many disabled veterans of the Crimean War (1854-6) when Seacole was young (before, say, 1826), nor, indeed, before the mother's own death (in 1844).
"Seacole was considered an expert on the symptoms of cholera." - by whom was she considered an expert?
Seacole "was only saved from adversity by the Commander-in-Chief of the British Forces, Lord Rokeby". What do you mean by "Commander-in-Chief of the British Forces"? Commander of the British forces in the Crimea? Or of the whole British Army? When was Henry Montagu, 6th Baron Rokeby either of these? The former were Lord Raglan (died June 1855), then General Sir James Simpson (resigned November 1855) (no article, it seems), then Sir William John Codrington; see Commander-in-Chief of the Forces for a list of the latter.
I hope these are not indicative of the whole.
Echoing Roger Davies, while there may be a dearth of primary sources, lots of secondary sources have been published in recent years. For example, there is no mention of or citations to Helen Rappaport's No Place for Ladies (published in 2007) - Rappaport owns the NPG portait, incidentally. Seacole - female, non-white, provincial, little or no formal training, herbal remedies - can easily be compared with and contrasted to Nightingale and the more formal medical establishment of the times.
I also noticed that your first edit to this article was on 30 March 2008, when it was, shall we say, quite well developed - already 49k long and 100 footnotes - and here are the changes since then. Some of the changes are a little troubling: I imagine the original editors had sources to justify the material that has been excised (for example, the behaviour of the Catholic church in Panama; details of Seacole's husband; Seacole's implicit claim of superiority over the Americans by having them speak a pidgin English, inverting the contemporary denigratory "black" pattern of speech; how lucrative the West Indies were to the British). I wonder if any of the editors who contributed to this article before you took it under your wing have anything to say. -- Testing times (talk) 22:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think Rudget is busy in real life for the next couple of days, (?exams). It's not for me to answer the above, but we are collaborating on sources, [33]. I hope I will be forgiven for poking my nose in here. GrahamColmTalk23:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I have just spotted the "self nomination." This page may have been developed and improved slightly, but for ever it always seemed the particular baby of User: ALoan, who often asked me for help and advice on it. I don't see that many vast changes. Giano (talk) 06:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the inaccuracies and lacking details mentioned above. Assigning Lord Rokeby the position of Commander-in-Chief was done by Giano here. An easy mistake to make when knocking out a new lead and without expertise on the subject, but I find it worrying that the statement has not been altered since November 2006 even though the details of Rokeby's command have been retained unchanged—he is mentioned as commander of the 1st Division in the Crimea twice—and the article has supposedly been significantly changed and developed (amazingly, the stub started on Rokeby repeated this error, despite the source clearly stating that Simpson was the Commander-in-Chief and Rokeby Commander of the 1st Division—Giano's words obviously carry too much weight to be easily dismissed). This lack of rigour (the glaring error of her mother running a boarding house for Crimean veterans is another obvious example), coupled with the diff provided by Testing times, suggest the article as it stands is a slightly less accurate and less comprehensive version than when it was rated "B" (which just goes to show how useful the rating system is, I guess).Yomanganitalk14:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Closing note: I was silly to think this article would even get anywhere near FA; I don't have enough time to do all these corrections and as Giano points out, ALoan was the creator of this, but seeing as he is absent and I was the next largest contributor, hopefully it wouldn't matter. Nomination withdrawn. Rudget (Help?) 15:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't be too disheartened. No-one owns this article. It is a good article (not merely in the a Wikipedia:Good article sense) and not too far from WP:FA-standard, but there are some parts - mentioned above - that need modification, and there is more research to be done.
Self-nominator: I'm nominating Priory of Sion, which has recently been listed as a good article under the good article criteria, for featured article because it is well-written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable. Furthermore, there has been tremendous popular interest in this topic due to the international success of the book The Da Vinci Code and the film made from it. Loremaster (talk) 21:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. There seems to be a lack of photos. I know it seems rather hard to find free images, but two? Is it me, or does it seem rather overwhelming to have so many inline cites in the lead? I'll do my other comments later when I have the time. So far, it looks good, aside from my comments. --Sunsetsunrise (talk) 21:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The following refs are lacking publisher information:
Current ref 12 "Klinghofer, David "The Da Vinci Protocols"
Current ref 13 "Miller, Laura "The Da Vinci Crock"
Current ref 15 "Thompson, Damian "How Da Vinci Code tapped ..."
Current ref 21 Anderson, Stephen "Pierre Plantard the .." Also, what makes this a reliable source?
Current ref 22 Introvigne Massimo Beyond the Da Vinci Code..." What makes this a reliable source? Also, it says "Preliminary version, do not reporduce or quote without the consent of the author" at the top.
Current ref 37 "Burns, Alex "holy blood, holy grail" Also, what makes this a reliable source?
Current ref 39, Aho, Barbar "The Merovingian Dynasty..." Also, what makes this a reliable source?
Current ref 46 "Les Cahiers des Rennes-le-Chateau" is lacking publisher and other bibliographic information.
Current ref 47 "jean=Jacques Bedu Les Sources Secretes .. lacking publisher
Current ref 58 "Tomb discovered in france considered knights templar... " Also, this is a press release?
Current ref 60 O'Neill Tim "History vs the Da Vinci code.." Also, what makes this a reliable source?
Current ref 62 "Prieure of Sion..." Also, what makes this a reliable source?
Current ref 63 "Ravipinto, Dan "Gabriel Knight 3 review.." also what makes this a reliable source?
Current ref 64 Harris, Craif "All Music Guide..."
Current ref 14 "Miller, Laura "Jesus the coverup" actually goes to the Kilnghofer article above. I think the link's misplaced.
Current ref 17 is a bare url. Needs formatting and should give a publisher, etc.
Current ref 52 "Gino Sandri works for a white-collar trade union..." the website listed is just a bare url, needs publisher and last access dated at the very least, and more bibilographical details would be good.
Current ref 56 Bloodline the Movie website is a bare url, needs formatting and publisher and last access date
Same for current ref 57 Ben Hammott.
Same for current ref 59, which should say it's a french website. Also, what makes this a reliable source? Looks like, (translating through babelfish) that this is a people finder site?
All other links worked fine.
If I get a chance, I'll try to come back and review this article. (It means I'm going to have to throw some more books in the books to take with pile though...) Ealdgyth - Talk22:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like you've resized the thumbnail, but not the image itself. As has now been mentioned below, .svg is not an appropriate format for non-free images, as it allows for infinite size. Low resolution is technically no more than 300 pixels horizontally or vertically (although I don't complain at 400 or 500 pixels). Long story short, a lower resolution .gif or .png would be appropriate to satisfy NFCC#3B. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk14:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Change to oppose per addition of Image:TresorMaudit.jpg, Image:The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail.jpg and Image:Davinci code.jpg. Images lack rationales for this article or rationales completely (violation of WP:NFCC#10C and WP:RAT). Impetus for the addition (a request for more free images) seems to imply that these images are not actually necessary (required per NFCC3#A). Why are these images necessary to understand Priory of Sion itself or its usage in those works? What is their significant contribution to our understanding (required per NFCC#8)? Why could any understanding not be provided by text or free images (NFCC#1)? The threshold for inclusion of fair use images is substantial and does not appear to have been considered. Fair use images can not be used for decorative purposes.ЭLСОВВОLДtalk20:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The rationale is that those are images of books that were central to the elaboration and promotion of the Priory of Sion myth (without which it would never have become known by the public as much as it has), They had been added to this article in the past until they were removed for reasons that remain unclear. I decided to restore them since User:Sunsetsunrise pointed out that the article lacked enough images. Since I don't want to spend too much of my time on this issue, I prefer removing them to avoid your opposition to Priory of Sion becoming a featured article. --Loremaster (talk) 00:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indopug's vote and comments
Strong oppose (continued below): This article was nominated for FAC just a few hours after it passed a rather lenient GA review. It is largely the work of a single editor, and has neither been peer-reviewed nor copy-edited; two things this article sorely needs. The following are an indicative list of problems, not a exhaustive one: — Indopug 09:36, May 2, 2008 — continues after insertion below
Except for the Lead, the Priory of Sion article is largely the work of User:Wfgh66, with the support of other editors, that was written months if not years ago. The article was relatively "dormant" until a few weeks ago when I decided to copy-edit it to raise its quality enough to get both Good Article and Feature Article status. In other words, I've been working to finess someone else's idiosyncratic prose without completely wiping out what this individual wrote. --Loremaster (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Prose
This article suffers from sentences often running on and on and on; right off in the lead I see:
"However, it has come to refer to a mythical secret society plotting to restore the Merovingian dynasty to the thrones of Europe and Jerusalem since the Middle Ages, which was speculated about in, and popularized by, the 1982 controversial non-fiction book The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, and later claimed as factual in the preface of the 2003 conspiracy fiction novel by Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code."--I've read short stories that were shorter than that sentence.
"Despite the exhaustive debunking of the Priory of Sion as one the great hoaxes of the 20th century by journalists and scholars, some skeptics have expressed concern that the proliferation and popularity of books, websites and films inspired by this hoax have contributed to the mainstreaming of conspiracy theories, pseudohistory, superstition and other confusions but also of the romantic reactionary ideology promoted in these works."--and novels smaller than this one.
"There is ample evidence that it had several members, as indicated by the numerous articles contained in its journal Circuit, written by a number of different people." i had to read this sentence four times before I could understand it.
It's perfectly understandable to pretty much everyone I know who read it except you. Although I'm sure you've now "poisoned the well" so to speak... ;) --Loremaster (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The articles of the association as indicated in its statutes formalized the goal of creating a..." What? Is such overly formally language required? I think there is a grammatical error/error in conveying the meaning there too.
I don't understand the next sentence too; I think the entire prose needs rewriting/editing, as nothing is clear in those first two paragraphs. It is honestly very difficult to read.
Although I agree that they could be improved, I don't get why you seem to have such difficulty understanding it. Anyway, fixed it. --Loremaster (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
However, the bulk of the activities of the Priory of Sion bore no resemblance whatsoever to the objectives as outlined in its statutes." and then "The first issue of its journal, Circuit, is dated 27 May, 1956, and, in total, twelve issues of the journal appeared."--why are these two sentences next to each other?
Just get a copy-editor who has never seen the text before. The language seems complicated and the sentences very convoluted. Every now and then a word is missing like "was" in the fourth para of History. I won't be crossing these as they were just examples; the entire text needs a cleanup; as I've mentioned. indopug (talk) 19:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Easier said than done. As for the language being complicated and the sentences convoluted, its a tricky subject to get a handle on and I've been working to finess the prose but most of it is not mine. As for the missing words, you'll have have to point them out or add them yourself because I don't see any so far (probably because I am tired...). --Loremaster (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm barely halfway through the first section and I think I better stop: get a copy-edit from somebody who is not familiar with the text.
MoS
Dates are formatted wrongly: [[January 1]], 2007 is not correct. Since this is an article about a French organisation, I think it should be [[1 January]] [[2007]]. (I'm not sure what system France follows)
I disagree. I don't think an English Wikipedia article should change its dating format simply because its topic is about a French organization. --Loremaster (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You don't seem to understand the problem; review Wikipedia:MOSDATE. Dates are written either as [[1 January]] [[2007]] (international system) or [[January 1]], [[2007]] (American system). The current system is simply incorrect.
Begging your pardon, but I do believe "French town" implies a town located in France; a link at "marginal French fraternal organisation" in the lead should do. Also there is plenty of overlinking throughout; after the first mention in the body, refer to him only as "Plantard" without first name or link. Common English words like pedigree and hoax should not be linked. indopug (talk) 19:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All fair points except for the internal link in the word "hoax" because the article it links to has an entry on the Priory of Sion. Anyway, fixed all of it. --Loremaster (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sections are named "Priory of Sion history", "Priory of Sion myth" and "Alleged Grand Masters of the Priory of Sion" in an article called "Priory of Sion"--spot the redundancies.
Um, yes I did. I removed the link to the French Wikipedia article but there is no English Wikipedia article on the man last time I checked that's why we were using the French link in the first place. --Loremaster (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Prieure de sion-logo.svg is an Svg file meaning it is of potentially infinite size, yet I find that #3 of the fair-use rationale used for that article is "It is a low resolution image, and thus not suitable for production of counterfeit goods."
I put it back, because I think converting this to PNG is misguided (I reduced the nominal resolution of the SVG, though). We have lots of fair use vector logos. Using vector versions is important for the longevity of the encyclopedia: Screen resolutions will continue to increase (and people have different preferences for the display size of images anyway) and we want to be able to produce high-quality print versions of articles as well. Our fair use claim only requires that the quality be no more than what we need for the purposes at hand, which I believe to be justifiable in this and other cases for that reason. — brighterorange (talk)19:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But an SVG file is potentially scalable to infinite size. Criterion #3b of WP:NFCC requires "Low- rather than high-resolution...is used". So a non-free SVG fails the criteria by an, um, infinite margin. I do not think the nominal size matters here; since anybody can scale to whatever size they want anyway. indopug (talk) 19:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indopug is correct. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball; what resolutions might be used are not relevant. Infinite resolution (i.e. scalable) is not appropriate for fair use images. The existence of other non-free .svg files is, similarly, not germane to discussion of images in this article. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk22:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CRYSTAL is irrelevant here, because it is a content policy, not a statement about how we interpret the future of the encyclopedia itself. I think yours is a dangerous and pointlessly overconservative interpretation of policy. Fair use doctrine requires us to not use a portion of the work beyond what is sufficient for our needs; here the needs of the encyclopedia extend to rendering the logo at multiple sizes and in other media as time goes on. This is quite reasonable. For those needs a fixed-size bitmap is insufficient. Reductionist arguments about "infinite resolution" are non-productive, because the law that the policies are based on don't talk about resolution, and vector graphics don't have resolution. My mention of the other SVG logos is meant as evidence that this is acceptable practice among conscientious editors and that this logo is by no means an outlier. For example, Wikipedia:Logos implies that fair-use SVG logos are acceptable by making recommendations on the detail contained within them; we have {{SVG-Logo}}; and just look at all the SVGs in category:All non-free logos, including in a number of featured articles like Microsoft. Do you think those are all mistaken? There's no value in deleting useful content if we are not required to by law, so let's not search for reasons to delete, but reasons to keep. — brighterorange (talk)23:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't quote or link WP:CRYSTAL. It's unfortunate that you have failed to comprehend what I'm actually saying: we should not be making content decisions based on speculation. We don't know the needs of the encyclopedia in the future. Here and now, policy explicitly requires low resolution (the antithesis of infinite or scalable resolution). Policy which, by the way, is deliberately more restrictive than law. WP:LOGO is a guideline, not policy, and any implications therein are subordinate to NFCC. The Microsoft logo, like all text-only logos, is not copyrighted. SVG is perfectly fine in those cases and, even then, has a minority representation in the category you provided; the existence of other images failing to conform to policy is not a license to do the same. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk23:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" precisely what WP:CRYSTAL says? What do you mean you didn't quote it? Either way, we're certainly free to anticipate the needs of the encyclopedia in the future (this is why we work on it), and make and interpret policy in that light. Why not? Policy does not say that you may not use vector graphics as fair use—you are interpreting the policy in an unnecessarily narrow way. We clearly do it in many instances. Also: The Microsoft logo is not copyrighted? Whaa? Where did you get that idea? It's not just text. — brighterorange (talk)02:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why not add free pics of a few more grandmasters? Is there a pic of Plantard? Even if non-free, I think you can argue for fair-use.
Fair point regarding Plantard. However, I don't think it would be a good idea to add more free pictures of *alleged* grand masters since the entire list is a *lie*. --Loremaster (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
<befuddled> what does the addition of pictures have to do with the fact that the list is a lie? </befuddled> FYI, since he's dead, that non-free pic can used for the infobox in Plantard's article too.
My point is that, beyond the popular focus on Leonardo da Vinci, it doesn't really serve a useful purpose to add pictures of people who weren't really grand masters of the Priory of Sion. In other words, it's already bad enough their names have been dragged into this hoax. Do we really need to add their pictures as well? As for the picture of Pierre Plantard, it was my intention to add it to Plantard's article once we find a good one. --Loremaster (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Content
the lead sentence says (or Priory of Zion) where Zion links to an article about "a term that most often designates the Land of Israel and its capital, Jerusalem." Yet here I find only peripheral mention of Israel. Also, if PoS was named after a mountain, then, well, I'm confused. What I'm saying is: are you sure that the "Zion" in the alternative translation of the organisation's name refers to the Israeli Zion, or is it just a modification of "Sion"?
I do hope you realise that that was a pretty serious mistake, which implied incorrect interpretations of the PoS being associated with Israel. indopug (talk) 19:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Putting aside that I don't need to be lectured by you, it wasn't a mistake. Pierre Plantard wanted to mislead people in thinking the Priory of Sion was associated with Israel. However, I've removed the internal link since this deception isn't explained in the Lead (nor should it be at that point). --Loremaster (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"In popular culture": this section just makes me laugh. "The band Priory of Brion formed by Led Zeppelin's Robert Plant in 1999 is an amalgamation of the name "Priory of Sion" and Monty Python's Life of Brian." - Really? Wow! Here we have an article about an organisation that claims to have descendants from Leonardo da Vinci and beyond, and we find it equally important to note the origin of the name of a band not notable enough to have its own Wikipedia article! Please, get rid of that entire section; there are guidelines about it too.
I disagree, there is nothing here that is not trivial. What episode of what TV show mentions PoS is not encyclopedic information. Its also funny that Da Vinci code is mentioned there again. Another point is that if you let a section like this stay, IPs and other inexperienced editors will add even more sub-trivial information. indopug (talk) 19:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand all of that. However, I still support its inclusion unless it becomes the sole reason why the Priory of Sion cannot become a Featured Article. --Loremaster (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article gets too listy towards the end; although the grand master lists cannot be avoided, I do believe that the assertions of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail can be converted to paragraphs.
The most worrying thing I found was a post on the talk page regarding the possibility of Masonic roots; digging a bit deeper and what do I find in the last two days' edit history of the article: [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], an edit war!
Calm down. It's not really an "edit war". Even if it was, it was over an extremely minor issue. Furthermore, the dispute has now been resolved as you can see on the talk page. --Loremaster (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Edit wars over minor issues are even worse than major ones and remain a serious violation of the
Clearly, this article was brought a little too fast to FAC, and needs extensive content reviewing, copy-editing and a peer-review or two. All the same, this is an intriguing subject, and I look forward to seeing it in polished form sometime in the near future. indopug (talk) 09:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although you brought up some good points that have now been used to improve the article, I think your judgement is too harsh. --Loremaster (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you're right, but the prose need reworking and I also see Ealdgyth's sourcing concerns are not taken care of. indopug (talk) 19:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am working on the prose. As for the sourcing concerns, User:Wfgh66 said he would work on it. Do you mind crossing out the issues you have raised that are now resolved? --Loremaster (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Where to begin? The whole tone of the article is non-encyclopedic. Substantial sections are not referenced and, perhaps more importantly, neither are the very many controversial claims. It reads like a conspiracy theory. How on earth did this article achieve GA? The prose is at its best poor. I couldn't bear to read more than than half of it. GrahamColmTalk21:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although I agree that the tone might be not encyclopedic enough, I find the suggestion that it reads like a "conspiracy theory" absurd when in fact the whole article is reporting the debunking of a conspiracy theory! --Loremaster (talk) 18:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(I'm moving unresolved concerns here, due to unreadability of the thing above. Please do not interrupt my comments, post your replies after them. I'll stike out stuff that's been addressed)
Strong oppose
The prose is poor. Get an independent, as yet uninvolved, copy-editor to clean it up.
I find it hard to understand why you cannot get the dates right, even after I showed you what to do. The syntax is [[1 March]] [[2008]] and the resulting display, depending on your settings, is 1 March2008.
There seem to be edit conflicts: first regarding Masonic connections, second about some Aquarius logo thing.
Popular culture section that mentions all the video games in the world that reference the priory and a Robert Plant band nobody's ever heard of.
I will try to find a copy-editor but the problem is that Priory of Sion is a very complicated subject. If someone is not familiar with its details, their editing can very easily damage the factual accuracy of the article.
I admit that my exhausting schedule during the past week as meant that I've only been able to read and implement recommendations in a relative "rush" due to limited time. However, I still fail to see where I haven't gotten the dates right. Perhaps I am simply too tired to have noticed a mistake.
I will try to moderate these edits conflicts once and for all, which were not occuring before the Featured Article nomination process started.
Since the In popular culture section has become a problem, I will delete it.
User talk:Wfgh66, the person most familiar with the reliable sources for the content of the article, is still in the process of mastering Wikipedia guidelines for citing sources.
Motion to table candidate and initiate a copy-edit request
I think theres enough issues and recurring issues listed above to warrant tabling this candidate & I ask the FA director to review and make a decision.
This article contains multiple actionable objections have not been resolved in spite of an extensive discussion; and consensus for promotion has not been reached. --Lemmey talk23:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He won the World Series with the Florida Marlins in 2003, and again reached the World Series as the starting catcher for the 2006 Detroit Tigers.Rodríguez has caught two no-hitters for two different pitchers. Needs a space between the two sentences.
I'd really like to see more information in the "Early life" section.
Iván Rodríguez was born in Manatí, and raised in Vega Baja, Puerto Rico. I think the mention of Puerto Rico would be better after the name of the first city.
In his first game, Rodríguez went 3-for-3 against Spartanburg. While I at least know what 3-for-3 means, it could mean nothing to a regular reader. More explaination for terms and numbers like that would be great.
In fact, no other catcher in the past 35 years has been as successful at this aspect of the game, with Rodríguez throwing out 48% of attempted basestealers through May 2006, far more than the runner-up during this period, the late Thurman Munson.[8] A couple problems with that sentence. First off, it's too long, and has too many commas, making it slightly difficult to read. Second, when it says "in the past 35 years", does that mean operationally, or 35 years before the current time?
He hit the home run off right-hander Storm Davis. He was named to the Major League Baseball (MLB) Rookie all-star team by both Topps and Baseball America and finished in fourth place in the American League Rookie of the Year voting. He also placed first in throwing out runners, catching 48.6% of runners attempting to steal.[9] This occurrs numerous times in the article, when three or four sentences in a row start with "He". Try to mix up the wording some.
Rodríguez played in the Puerto Rican Winter League over the winter, but he suffered a severe knee injury which kept him on the bench for the rest of the season. Does this mean he literally sat on the bench for the entire season?Y
On October 9, the Tigers announced that they were picking up the fifth-year, 13-million-dollar option on Rodríguez's contract, keeping him in a Tiger uniform through at least the 2008 season. In a Tiger uniform? Does this mean he is playing with the Tigers, or he just likes the uniform so much that he's going to wear it for the rest of the year? (I know the answer, but some people might not.)Y
Please replace that in-text external link with a reference. Y
I took out your strike through, at FAC it's usually not a good idea to edit another person's comments/etc, per the FAC instructions. Ealdgyth - Talk23:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For the web sites, we need to establish their reputation for accuracy and fact checking, per WP:RS. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Just saying that "It's a database of statstics that could also be found at other places" does not begin to establish reliability. Ealdgyth - Talk23:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He wrote it on his own experiences, so it is reliable.
Primary sources aren't always the best sources for information though. Witnesses aren't always reliable. What makes this a primary source that is needed?
It explains information about his charity, and his early life. This could not be found in another place. The "personal tid-bits" were part of an interview with the Fort Worth Business Press, but can not be found in an archive. STORMTRACKER94 Go Irish!15:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I don't think this is ready to be featured yet. Here are some examples of problems with the article.
A couple of references still have the publisher in the title. Please seperate them to match the rest.
"Rodríguez was awarded the American League (AL) Most Valuable Player Award in 1999." There is a redundancy here. Change "was awarded" to "won".
"He ranked fourth in the AL among catchers in batting average, at .260." That batting average is not very impressive for an MVP. How about using his home run and RBI totals for the season to provide context on how Rodriguez earned the award?
"Rodríguez has caught two no-hitters for two different pitchers". Delete the first "two". It now sounds like he caught two no-hitters for both pitchers.
"The first one was in 1994 when he caught a perfect game by Kenny Rogers". Comma after 1994. The full date of the perfect game would be nice too.
"The most recent one was on June 12, 2007 when he caught the no-hitter thrown by Justin Verlander." Try this instead: "The most recent was on June 12, 2007, when he caught Justin Verlander's no-hitter."
Another issue with the no-hitters: Neither is mentioned in the season recaps.
Early life, second sentence: Change U.S. to United States.
"Ivan's first job consisted of delivering flyers in the shopping malls in Puerto Rico." Try "Rodríguez's first job was delivering flyers to shopping malls." We already know he was in Puerto Rico at the time.
Typo in fifth sentence of section: two→too.
These are almost all in the lead and and half of Early life, so there are likely other problems. Get some editors new to the article to help out. Giants2008 (talk) 22:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Very well done, and close, but I have issues with some of the wording as well:
"no other catcher in the past 35 years of the League has been as successful at this aspect of the game, with Rodríguez throwing out 48% of attempted basestealers through May 2006." - this entire sentence is awkward. Given that it is in the major leagues section, it is a given that the "League" is MLB, so it's redundant. The sentence can also be simplified: "Over the last 35 years, Rodriguez has been the most successful catcher in this aspect, throwing out 48% of attempted basestealers through May 2006." Also, why to May 2006? Is there not a more recent cite available?
"He placed high on his team in many statistics" - This statement in the 1994-97 section is redundant, since you list the stats that he placed high on his team immediately after.
The 1994-97 section needs more citations, especially statements regarding the records he set for doubles and at-bats by a catcher.
"1997 season, Rodríguez also placed first among catchers in many categories in Major League Baseball. These categories were hits, runs, runs batted in, and doubles." - duplicate use of the word "categories". Consider simplifying.
"He placed second in home runs among catchers, below only Sandy Alomar, Jr. of the Cleveland Indians, who had 20 home runs." - Why do you mention how many home runs Alomar had, but not Rodriguez?
"On July 24, Rodríguez suffered a season-ending injury in a game against the Anaheim Angels. While trying to make a throw to second base, his thumb made contact with the swing of Mo Vaughn's bat. He fractured his right thumb and underwent surgery the next day. This injury caused him to miss the rest of the season." - Redundancies again. Why do you mention that he suffered a season ending injury twice?
"Even though he was injured, he was still named to the second-team of the Baseball America Major League Baseball All-Star Team." - Redundant and awkward. Perhaps: "Despite his injury, Rodriguez was still named a MLB second-team All-Star by Baseball America."
"He was selected to his ninth straight MLB All-Star Game in a row," - again, redundant. ...in a row. can be removed. Also, which record did he tie Johnny Bench for? The overall record, or just the record for catchers?
"This was his eighth season in a row with batting average of .300 or above." - should be "with a batting average..." Look over the article for simple word errors like this. I also saw a couple typos.
I'd recommend removing the statement about the 2003 season and wining the title with the Marlins from the end of the 2000-2002 section. It's unnecessary, and doesn't belong in that section.
"In 2006, Rodríguez returned to throwing out runners attempting to steal a base at a very high percentage, as he did in his earlier career" - why is this notable? You've already explained that he was a prolific catcher at throwing runners out. What happened during the middle years of his career that makes this important?
There are a lot of "On x day, he did y" statements. It reads like a point form list rather than a cohesive paragraph.
Why is it important that Rodriguez led the majors in exhibition home runs this year?
Would it be possible to mention what Rodriguez did in the World Baseball Classic? The section seems very empty, simply stating that he played, and who his teammates were - which isn't all that relevant to Rodriguez himself. Certainly more can be said about what he did?
On the steroid allegations, I think it would be beneficial to include Rodriguez's statement of denial, rather than simply stating "he denied the allegations" after spending the rest of the section describing the allegations.
Delink his wife's name if she isn't notable.
The lack of his career statistics is odd to me, but it would appear this was a project decision to simply list his stats via external links? Guess there is nothing actionable there, it just seems interesting to me.
All in all, you've done an excellent job with the article, and are quite close. My biggest concern is the numerous duplication of words and statements. There is a lot of room for simplification. Resolute01:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is some way from FA quality. The lead is underdeveloped, as indeed are many of the other sections. And there are still numerous problems with the prose. "went had three hits in three at bats" is but one example. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Closing notes: the nominator hasn't edited the article since April 25. After reading Jbmurray's Oppose, I revisited the diff of the article (above) that received Support and found numerous grammatical errors, MoS issues, linking problems, and citation issues. If the nominator is still following, I suggest opening a peer review and following all of the tips at WP:FCDW/March 17, 2008, including inviting previous opposers and peer review volunteers to the peer review to comment and help sort out the issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-Nomination The article has improved from its previous nomination, I believe the issues preventing its promotion have been addressed. It has also since been promoted from a GA to an A-class article. -Ed!(talk)(Hall of Fame)20:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The first one, per the "about us" section, the people who run the cite are military pundits on CNN news etc, so they are respected analysts. Some of them also held directorship/high admin jobs in space research, which is also a part of GlobalSecurity. I've tossed off the last one because I found the same info on a better site. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I missed this in the HRC mess, what makes it a gold standard source per WP:RS? We need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Ealdgyth - Talk14:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I read the article. The forbes link is the ONLY sourced information in the Global Security article. Just having a wikipedia article with one source doesn't make it a reliable source. The other link you gave, wlu. edu, was much more helpful about showing that it's a reliable source. I'm not sure how the other two links you gave established reliability, but the Forbes and the wlu.edu site together satisfy my concerns. Thank you. Ealdgyth - Talk17:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Swatjester, please note that we are all volunteers, everyone here has the same goal of making sure our FAs are the best they can be, no question on a FAC is ridiculous if its goal is to make sure we're using the best possible sources, and reviewers who take their "job" of reviewing seriously are appreciated, as strenuous review enhances the quality of a star once it's bestowed. Thank you, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly disagree unless a few more dead-tree sources are found that do not rely on U.S. military sources. The brigade has a long history, and this should not be documented from official sources so close to the subject, but from third-party references. Buckshot06 (talk) 03:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The sources are perilously close to WP:COI, coming almost entirely from the US military. This was raised at the Milhist A-class review and needs addressing.--ROGER DAVIEStalk06:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some way that I can solicit for additional reviewers in the meantime? The commenters have not come back and no one seems to be giving opinions now. -Ed!(talk)(Hall of Fame)04:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose — It's a really nice article with plenty of wonderful graphics and photos, but I'd really like to see a few more citations from different sources. I'm particularly concerned about so much reliance on those first two cites — the GlobalSecurity one in particular. The prose is good, but I'd like to see some of the red links stubbed out or removed altogether; the battalions and "Iraqi gold" in particular are of questionable utility. The prose is good, but it's too limited by the sources you have. I imagine that as you add more sources, you'll be able to expand the detail of the article more than it is right now — thus resolving a minor issue. By all means, keep it up! It's an interesting topic, and I can't wait to see what you do with it. JKBrooks85 (talk) 05:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At nomination 1, I had just responded to most of the negative feedback the day it was closed. I think it might have passed had it stayed up another day. However, I have expanded the page a bit by sourcing details from U. S. News & World Report, Atlantic Monthly, and Newsweek to supplement the page that I felt was already pretty high quality. Its length still remains within the same range as the other world leaders noted on the first nomination although it is longer than the typical WP biography. I continue to believe that this is among the finest articles on WP and hope a few people now agree.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 23:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as before, only more strongly. With a penetrating focus on the various phases of Kemp's life and career, an eminently readable style, and almost 300 footnotes (!), no question. Biruitorul (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Terrific writing, the article is very comprehensive on his entire life and careers, and neutral on all portions of it. Hello32020 (talk) 02:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Provisional SupportOppose - Too many simple grammar mistakes and other issues.
Second paragraph of the lead: "ranging from his conservative opposition to abortion more centrist stances such as advocacy of immigration reform." Place a connecting word after abortion, and try to avoid a pair of "tos" so close together.
"Kemp also co-founded the American Football League Players Association, which he served as president for five terms." I think the flow of the sentence could be improved. How about "Kemp also co-founded the American Footballl League Players Association, for which he served five terms as president."
The last paragraph of the lead gets repetitive. Try this: "Since returning to public life, Kemp has continued a career of public service. He has been active as a political advocate and commentator, as well as serving on corporate and non-profit organization boards. Kemp has served in official capacities to promote American football and has been a political advocate for the Republican Party and retired professional football players." Also see if you can avoid having two "servings" that close.
I know you need to mention the Time cover in the text in order to use it, but it doesn't work for me in the story. At least get rid of the Mars part, which is completely off-topic.
We have two issues. 1.) I have found a paucity of free pics for a modern leader of Kemp's level of historical importance and we need more pics. Thus, we must use fair use. 2.) Fair use images must have some encyclopedic value. Just saying Kemp was on the cover of Time. Look at the picture is not really an encyclopedic value. However, when you can say the editors at Time wrote a story on the deliberations regarding the complicated decision on whether to put Dole-Kemp on the cover instead of the discovery of Life on Mars, the image becomes encyclopedic because it relates to a significant controversy or public dilemna. I hope that convinces you to allow it to stay as it is. Please read the citation about the controversy as well.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 14:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If it was controversial, I think you should adjust the text, as I don't really sense that now. Insets are commonly used on magazine covers. Consider putting it like this: "which was so close to being on the cover that Time wrote about how difficult their decision was". Then move the citation with the story to the end of the paragraph, or use it twice if you prefer.Giants2008 (talk) 16:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looks just fine. One more little thing: "August 19, 1996 Time magazine". Put "issue of" in the middle. Other than that, it looks good.Giants2008 (talk) 18:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
2nd paragraph of Presidential bid (1988): His campaign was on an early positive course with many key early endorsements in New Hampshire," Flip key and early.
2nd paragraph of Cabinet: "Kemp was constantly at odds with White House Budget Director, Richard Darman who opposed... Remove comma and place after Darman.
Next sentence: "HOPE was first proposed to John Sununu, the White House chief of staff in June 1989... Either put another comma after "staff" or change it to this: "HOPE was first proposed to White House chief of staff John Sununu in June 1989...
You're going to hate me for this one, but reference publishers only need to be linked at first appearance, and the same goes for the work column.
Is there a policy that you are referring to. I have seen it this way more often. The thinking is that readers don't read through every ref and linking it each time means it will be linked in the few refs they read. Imagine a reader reading much more than even 5 refs in this article. It would take him hours to read the article. Out of 5 refs he is only likely to see the same publisher or work maybe twice at most, but likely he would see a bunch of singletons. I think much like linking renews in separate charts in the same article it should with separate footnotes. Places other than refs that links repeat in FA articles are infoboxes and image captions.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 15:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why do we only link the first usage, because a reader is suppose to look up the linked page the first time he sees it and remember it for the rest of the article. We make no assumption that the reader looks at every link. In an article with 300 links suppose you are looking at the 250th, but you did not look at the 64th, should we assume you know where to find the proper linkages. The purpose of the link in the ref is to allow the reader to understand the significance of the publisher and/or work. However, if you delink all subsequent links the reader will not be able to quickly differentiate between the unlinked terms and previously linked ones. Sandy has been passing all the other FACs that use this prevailing convention.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 20:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that footnotes often move around. This instability is the nature of wikipedia. It is a Sisyphean task to keep only the first instances wikilinked. A guideline like this should be taken on a case-by-case basis. If you think it is low-value link then you could remove it with no resistance. If there is resistance, it's not worth a fight. --maclean02:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Noting that Giants oppose is not unsupported, it continues below (it would help if reviewers would keep commentary together, as this appears as an invalid support, without commentary). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, both for not keeping my comments together and for not seeing this comment for two days. I'll do it differently in the future. Giants2008 (talk) 02:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I agree with Giants2008. Although I've only read the lead and the first section, I can tell this article needs quite a bit of work.
The lead is kind of a mess. First, I don't get the structure. Why does it start with his career as a politician, then move to his time as a football player, then go on with the time after his political life, and finish by mentioning that he was in the Army (when? no one knows)? Second, it doesn't mention that Kemp left public life and then a paragraph starts with "Since returning to public life". Furthermore: "Kemp has held duties in official capacities to promote American football and has been a political advocate for the Republican Party and retired professional football players." Of course he was an advocate for the Republicans; he was in office as a member of the party. "Kemp is also a veteran of the United States Army who has authored, co-authored, and edited several books." What has his having been in the Army have to do with the books he wrote? They don't seem to deal with the military.
I have swapped the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. This gives the WP:LEAD an opening paragraph describing his most important/notable roles. Then subsequent paragraphs give high level detail related to these important roles in sequential order. I moved the bit about the military to complete this reordering.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 21:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Kemp, who was born, raised and educated in Los Angeles, California, attended Fairfax High School, which is known both for its historically high concentration of Jewish students and for producing celebrities." The fact that he grew up in Los Angeles is already mentioned in the preceding paragraph.
"Although by the end of the century, Fairfax had become a majority Hispanic high school,[6] over 95 percent of Kemp's classmates were Jewish and he became a supporter of Jewish causes." By the end of what century? I presume you mean the 20th. Then it should be "would become"; the "had" implies that it had a Hispanic majority by the time Kemp attended it.
"Boasting an alumni of notable actors, athletes, and musicians, Fairfax is noted by celebrity-seeking guides.[8] The school is located on Melrose Avenue, and its alumni include Herb Alpert, David Arquette, Lenny Kravitz, Ricardo Montalban, David Janssen, Timothy Hutton and Mickey Rooney.[9][6]" The flow of these sentences is kind of weird. First it talks about the school's alumni, then it moves on to its location and then goes back to the alumni.
"Despite his proximity to the trappings of celebrity and entitlement, Kemp learned to embrace diversity and hard work during his experience working with his brothers at his father's trucking company in downtown Los Angeles." What? "Proximity to the trappings of celebrity and entitlement" normally turns people into bigots?
"Kemp's habit of rigorous reading showed in high school where he read history and philosophy books" If he had this habit before high school - as this sentence suggests - then it already it showed before by him reading other books.--Carabinieri (talk) 21:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry for taking so long to respond, but I was hoping this article would develop a bit, if I wait a little, since you were discussing it with a lot of other editors. I still feel there are lots of problems in this article. Its structure is often unclear and it needs copyediting.
"Jim Mora, who would become a future NFL head coach" That's redundant. He already was a future NFL head coach.
The lack of dates in the "Early life" section makes kind of hard to follow. When did he graduate from high school? And from college? Were his military service and his studies at Long Beach State University and California Western University concurrent?
I added 1953 for his high school graduation. The Marriage section says "she graduated from Occidental College in 1958, which was a year after Kemp graduated" so it is clear he graduated college in 1957.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that Cookie Gilchrist was traded to the Broncos in 1965 is mentioned twice
One is in directs quotes (primary source). The other is a tertiary reference to a secondary source that is properly cited. Does that count as twice? A lot of times people will say something and you may not know whether they are telling a story with precise details. Thus, I added a properly sourced tertiary statement. Let me know if this is wrong.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why are Kemp's appearances in magazines give so much coverage? Kemp's campaign for Congress, on the other, isn't covered at all.
A person like Kemp was probably in hundreds if not thousands of magazine stories over the course of his life. This article cites dozens as secondary sources because they are WP:RS. In addition it notes his most important magazine cover appearance and how it almost did not happen. It also refers to a politically charged magazine story about homosexual affairs. It is the only reference I found to this controversy which was an important part of his political history since it occurred while he was a political staffer. Having an article sourced by Time, Newsweek, Atlantic Monthly, U. S. News & World Report, and the New York Times is a good thing. I began my attempt to clean up this article at the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library (BECPL). I asked them what kind of sources they had for his political career and they said they had a file of clippings from the Buffalo News. If the main Buffalo Library had nothing but newpaper clippings to summarize one of the three most important politicians (after Grover Cleveland and Millard Fillmore) in the history of the city, then dozens of quality magazine articles from dozens of political pundits is a huge step up for the worlds repository of Kemp information. As for his congressional campaign the article states that he ran on some issues advised by Nixon staffers and it describes the state of his district. I confess that many politician articles have complete details of electoral results. I will put in a request with the BECPL for his congressional electoral results. This will get me numerical results in all likelihood. I have no indication of the history of his electoral campaigns. I have no information of hotly contested years. I imagine as a Republican from a traditionally Democratic district there were some interesting contests over the years. The article at 10300+ words is already challenging the not much more than 10000 word limit. Further detail on his congressional races would need to be in a separate article, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are quite a few weasel terms: "he was considered a John F. Kennedy throwback", "Kemp is described as the most proactive combatant", "he was heralded as a 'courageous voice in the wilderness'", "He is as fondly remembered for", "and he is described as having", "Kemp is known as an independent politician" just to name a few from "Congress" section. Try mentioning who said these things.
"he was considered a John F. Kennedy throwback" -Clifford May reported in the New York Times that a political science professor said as much and two other articles later in the article make JFK comparisons.
I don't know a better way to incorporate the fact that Karen Tumulty and Mike Duffy (not sure if this is the right guy from the dab) use his hair as the standard by which politician's hair is measured. This is a tertiary reference to a valid secondary WP:RS. He is viewed by many secondary sources as a handsome, JFK-like fellow with good hair. He eventually got to play a role where he was the stud quarterback in afterlife as a politician. I don't know what to say other than that I included 300+ refs so you can see for yourself.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get why much of the paragraph that starts with "In the early 21st century, Kemp" is in this particular section. I also don't get the point of sentences like "Pete du Pont was another progressive conservative" at all. That whole section seems to need a better structure.--Carabinieri (talk) 17:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - This article is incredibly long, and being over 100k, unwieldy. Perhaps make a page devoted to his football career and to his political career and "main article" link them with summations of both in their own categories. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And they are in violation of MoS guidelines also for their excessive length. And "only" 62k? You mean "only" violation MoS by 2k, when MoS tries to have people top off around 50k total? And for your information, the "text" portion is how you read "readable prose" according to the tool, and that doesn't include references which even the MoS includes, so, I would guess you are a good 20k over. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Violations of MoS are violations of MoS. If an FA is more than 10 printable pages, then it should be removed from FA status until it is trimmed down. Your page is 3 printable pages greater than the maximum suggested under MoS. Please, if you want to follow standard formating procedures, do what is recommended. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not dismiss your arguments, but you miss the point. The guideline says the problem area is when the articl is much more than 6,000 to 10,000 words and Kemp is at 10383. It also says that although over 60KB in length is probably a candidate to be split the real problem is at over 100KB and Kemp is at 62.6KB.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1. Do not bring up off topic things such as that. 2. 10,000 "words" is meaningless, since you should be looking at the readable prose amount, which says 50k. 50k of small words could be over 10,000 words, and 50k of large words could be under 10,000 k. But its still the same size, which makes it the same download rate. As a frequent user of dialup, it makes it extremely hard to load pages. Hence part of the reason why it is there to begin with. Also, that 100kb use to refer to total size, until it was altered to say readable prose without consensus. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:54, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And I am refering to - "Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose". Now, to the "rule of thumb" it use to read "total size" not "readable prose", so you should note that. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm getting involved in edit conflict after edit conflict tonight. I found a lot more problems with the article, but they will have to wait until tomorrow. Giants2008 (talk) 04:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Scratch that. I'll try again, in multiple parts. Here goes.[reply]
College: "I guess we won" needs quotation marks and probably a cite.
Football career: Please state that the AFL was a new league. It will provide context for the next sentence, showing that this new league needed overlooked players like Kemp to fill rosters. It's touched on to a certain extent, but I think it can be improved.
added "newly-formed"
Chargers era: It's almost unheard of for a pro quarterback to finish near the top of the league in rushing statistics (maybe in college). Maybe some more info about this.
Anything else would be WP:OR. I researched this football section when I was in Buffalo, where they had a lot of AFL resources. All I can do from Chicago is point to webpages of stats. I don't have much else to say, but it speaks for itself. He must have run a lot of quarterback sneaks or something, but I would be hazarding a guess.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 06:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Third paragraph of section: Al Davis spying on the Bills needs a cite. I don't know if the book cite following the next sentence is supposed to reference this, but we should always be careful with living people. Also, what does this have to do with Kemp?
I thought putting the same ref after both adjacent sentences would be overkill, but I will add one to the first if you like. Note this is related to Kemp because of the subsequent season that mentions the slow start. This just makes it clear that the slow start was encyclopedic.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 06:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It normally wouldn't be necessary to use the same citation in consecutive sentences, but potentially libellous facts should always be handled with caution.Giants2008 (talk) 15:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A google exact term search on "Jack Kemp" "Clubhouse lawyer" yields one of the books already listed in the refs, but for some reason I can not view it on my computer. If you can see it can you get the ref for me.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 13:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is the one. I thought I already had used the book. Anyways, I can not see the google book result in my browser right now. Feel free to add the appropriate text or wait until I am somewhere that I can see the text.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 16:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I did this for you. If you want, I could attempt to format this like the other books used, with page numbers for each citation. Up to you, though. Giants2008 (talk) 17:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe these facts predate my involvement with the article. I arrived when it was 12.1KB, and I took it to its current state of 159.1KB. I have done a lot of checking to make sure I had cites for Kemp's MVP's and recall confirming that Lowe won the others. I can not say which ref backs this up, but one of the two should if I recall. Looking at the 12.1 KB version] it use to just say they shared the MVP in a succession box. So I guess it is actually my spotty citations here because I only cared about the Kemp citations, but I can't get the cites for you from 550 miles away. I will check here in Chicago and see if they have any information.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 06:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Several suggestions for Joe Collier era: To avoid repetition, try this: "which was played for the right to represent the AFL in Super Bowl I". Capitalize star in All-star twice in same sentence. Why was the loss to the Oilers bad? If it was a blowout, briefly mention it. In last paragraph of section, lose Joe and Jack.
Career summary: Try this: He led Buffalo to three straight Eastern Division titles, and the 1964 and 1965 American Football League championships". I don't like the placement of the receivers. See if you can find a better spot.
Presidential bid: "The political pundits recognize him however as a visionary idea man." Really needs changes: "The political pundits recognized him, however, as a visionary" and maybe find another term to replace "idea man".
I get real lazy about rereading quotes, but if you went throught the 200 or so online quotes you would find the phrase man of ideas, idea guy, idea man at least a half dozen times. I know this is better than idea guy, but do you prefer man of ideas?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 14:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At least change "recognize" to "recognized". If that was a common phrase used to describe him, it's hard to change it. How does "visionary thinker" sound?Giants2008 (talk) 15:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment made previously on the article talk, but no response there. In the second paragraph of "Cabinet" is the project opposed by Congress the same as the project opposed by Darman? They have the same description, so it's rather confusing. Also, I do not consider the overall wording of this paragraph to be neutral. Take for example the phrase "welfare reform to correct government offsets". Certainly it is a welfare "change". Whether it's a "reform" or is a pov. Similarly with the word "correct". There are also other wording issues. I edited it once, but was reverted so I'll leave the issue here for discussion. And to be clear, I'm not saying or implying that any editor is personally biased. .... A separate comment about FAC: There has been good progress with this article, but I don't think the writing is all that great yet. Lots of issues have been identified and corrected above. I've made a fair few edits myself. But my feeling is that FAC is the place to bring an article that is already well-copyedited, and just needs a minor tweak or two. This was a major issue in the last FAC, and basically the article needs a new set of eyes from someone with great writing skills. That said, the facts and references and coverage all seem to be of FA quality to me. Jpmonroe (talk) 02:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, let me say I am no serious scholar of politics. You can tell by my major contributions by project that I only have one check other than Kemp by WP:PLT. It is quite possible that I have misinterpreted a political scenario that someone who thrives on politics would understand better than I. It is also quite possible that in my reading of the 300 or so references for this article I have misinterpreted the secondary source in a few places. The first few sentences of this articleparagraph are all refed by one New York Times article. You are free to edit to correct my interpretation. In fact, I welcome it. This was not the flavor of edit that was reverted. Your edits were reverted because 1. facts were moved from one place to another without regard for citation (I.E. a fact from a sentence reference by one source was moved to another sentence reference by other sources), 2. high school facts were moved to the youth paragraph. 3. facts were removed that help us understand his background. If you make a correction that helps us better understand/interpret a reference and retain the WP:ATT and WP:V qualities of the article it would be welcome. I welcome the eyes. My own eyes were weary. For every ref you see included in the article there are two or three that I read and did not include so my eyes are definitely getting weary. It is quite a responsibility to properly sketch an encyclopedic biography like this and really think a person who is relevant to as many projects as Kemp is relevant to should have a lot more hands willing to get involved. I understand my citing style may be tough to work with, but that is how you get an article seriously considered at FA using the internet. I am here to get feedback toward an FA. I am going to reread the article once or twice and see if I can better present the facts. It may take me a while. I am not so sure I want to engage in a debate over whether the semantics of reform vs. change are appropriate. Like I said. I am not trying to POV this guy. I am actually a lifelong Democrat and you can look at this tool to count the edits at Jesse Jackson, Michelle Obama, Jesse Jackson, Jr., Toni Preckwinkle and Sandi Jackson to see what I mean. I in fact do not know enough about the political spectrum to say whether you are in fact claiming I am POVing some republican ideologies since Kemp had a liberal bent. I just attempted to paraphrase or pick relevant quotes from various WP:RSs. What would be best is if you think I am POVing, note sentences and words just like some of the edits above and I will go line by line with you. The more your corrections get into iterpreting sociopolitical stuff the longer each response will take. A lot of the above has been just getting grammar and citations correct. Choosing the proper words to correctly relay facts is a slightly more complicated issue that will take longer, but I am willing to go there to get the article right.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't understand your reply. My comment notes exactly something I think is non-neutral, and says why. It is also states clearly that I do not think you are biased (and I've said that 4 times now). Intent is not the issue, and I wish you'd just stick to my very specific issues with the text instead of manufacturing an attack on your integrity out of nothing. Good grief. As to the rest, my opinion is that the writing isn't polished yet, and you've had several dozen specific comments about that in this FAC and the one last week. Disagreeing with my attempts to help doesn't change that. Bottom line, as it stands I oppose this nomination for the reasons above. However, I don't see much constructive coming out my involvement here or edits to the article, so I'll just bow out and leave it to the deliberations of others. Jpmonroe (talk) 12:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed your problem above. I imagine you might better understand the semantic nuances and would love for your advice. My comments that you say you do not understand above are probably more related to the comments that you made on your user talk page yesterday about me unknowingly pushing a point by word choice. I apologize if you did not like my joke about threatening to take action against you for calling me a Republican (I don't truly feel being a Republican is that bad a thing. When I was going door-to-door in Indiana this past weekend for the Obama campaign I even told the Republicans I hope they make their voice known because I believe in a Democracy). It seems to me that wikipedia is at a loss for your lack of patience with me. You have erased our discoure on your talk page, but at one point you said I've been biting my tongue, but your writing is generally poorly organized. Random facts here and there, and then back to the same facts in completely different paragraphs. My problem is that I am working from seven or eight hundred articles and piecing facts together. It is probably more common for a person to have a few biographies to work from rather than a hodge podge of magazine and newspaper articles, but JFK has no biography so I am working with what I have. I would prefer to reply to your directed comments than to just lose you. At one point yesterday you said you wold not oppose. Then although the article was unchanged you opposed for some reason probably related to my joke on your user talk page. I apologize if I offend. Wikipedia would be better off if you would point out topics that you think I have discussed in several parts of the article inappropriately rather than you just give up on me.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — Fantastic work, Tony. Keeps getting better, though I think it's passed into the boundaries of "too much of a good thing." I'd support splitting Kemp's football career off. I kind of feel that I share the blame, since I suggested expanding his football career the first time around, but I feel that it's definitely worth splitting off now. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have the a couple of problems with splitting the article.
The article is not really that long compared to his peer group. Look at Rice, C. & Clinton, H. among others.
Although I could scale down the football section here, while I am here in Chicago I could not beef up the football career section into a quality dedicated article that describes his college career (Los Angeles resources needed) and his professional career (Buffalo/ Los Angeles/ San Diego resources needed although possibly all detail could be found in Buffalo) in detail. I am aware that since he was a Little All American, he was a star college and probably star high school football player. Someone with Los Angeles resources should tackle that topic. From Buffalo, someone could probably detail each season of Kemp's AFL career. I am just not capable of creating a quality split article from here. As I recall the information was available at the Buffalo Public Library.
The current article has approximately the proper depth to describe his football career for a complete bio, but further detail would probably be too much of a good thing.
Do you think the average person looking for Jack Kemp's football career comes here and feels overwhelmed? Probably not. Do you think the average person is left wanting for more football detail? Possibly, but I can do no better without going back to Buffalo and then to Los Angeles.
P.S. I have called the Occidental College Library and they can not help me unless I am either a student, faculty member or alumni or I am able to physically come to the library in California.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My main concern is that today he's more commonly known for his political career rather than his football career. It's my theory (just guessing, now) that folks searching for him would be looking for information about his political career first. I've got no problems with page length, but from a readability standpoint, it's almost as if you have two different people: Jack Kemp the football player, and Jack Kemp the politician. My main concern is that you've developed the article to the point where someone looking for information about one particular period in his life may have a harder time looking for it due to the information about the other periods in his life. It's just my opinion, though. JKBrooks85 (talk) 21:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Kemp was near-sighted and tenacious on the field." I don't see how the two go together. Try this: "Although he was near-sighted, Kemp was tenacious on the field."
"Kemp was also self-motivated: Should this be a semi-colon?
Basically there are three ways to join independent phrases. One with a comma, one with a semi-colon and one with a colon. I only really remember the first one, so I may be wrong, but it looks alright to me.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really like the next part either and think this is better: "he performed post-graduate study at Long Beach State University and California Western University, and served in the military from 1958–1962."
*Presidential bid: I'm not getting the part about his liberterian philosophies clashing with social and religious values. I think you mean voters with those beliefs, but I may just be reading it wrong.
"Kemp personally earned $6.9 million in the first three years, primarily for public speaking." I like the flow, but should "first" be "next"? Or is it connected to the previous text? Giants2008 (talk) 18:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
*In next paragraph, put a comma before the immigrant quote. Also, what index is referred to?
Comma added. If you are asking about the index because you want to know, just see the citation for the sentence. If you are asking because you think it should be in the article say so, but I excluded it because on my first reading I don't think further detail on this matter would be an addition.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Vice Presidential nomination: Something needs to be added in the first line. It appears that a couple words are missing.
You may not have seen the problem. The second sentence starts, "When Dole declined an invitation to speak National Association for the Advancement of Colored People". It's missing a couple of connecting words. Giants2008 (talk) 16:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support — Well-cited, complete, and interesting. It adequately covers the subject, and though I have concerns about the article length, they're not enough to override my willingness to support the article. It's better than 95% of the articles on Wikipedia (including many FAs I've seen), and I don't see any gripping reason not to support. JKBrooks85 (talk) 05:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused by this sentence:"In addition to developing his respect for hard work, Kemp's habit of rigorous reading, which would become important later, showed in high school where he read history and philosophy books"
did he read history and philosophy books for fun or for school?
Calls for speculation according to this ref. Other refs may have said. I don't recall. I should have cited this sentence with three or four refs so it sould be easy to check. I would literally have to reread all the refs to take a stab at further clarification.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What does the fact that he was a member of the fraternity have to do with his involvement in student gov't? The phrasing of that sentence makes it seems as if there was a connection
The first paragraph on him at college doesn't flow well. I would move the information about the school being a founding member of Div III and the info about him going to the school to learn about pro formations together and put that at the beginning of the paragraph. (something along the lines of He went to Occidental, a founding member of Div 3, because...) After it has discussed why he went there, then it could discuss his footall carer at the school
awkward phrasing "Kemp married Joanne Main, his college sweetheart,[5] after she graduated from Occidental College in 1958, which was a year after Kemp graduated"
the "but" in this sentence implies that Beebe was not a Presbyterian. Do we know that for sure? "Kemp's Biblical Literature professor, Keith Beebe, presided over the wedding,[11] but after the marriage, Kemp became a Presbyterian.["
why mention Joanne's name again name again? people likely didn't forget it in the few sentences between now and when she was introduced "Kemp and his wife, Joanne, have two sons"
this is a little repetitive. Please reword " one of the first 3,000-yard passers in the American Football League by surpassing 3000 yards in the inaugural 14-game schedule 1960 season"
"In 1962, the Chargers drafted Lance Alworth and John Hadl in the 1962 American Football League Draft" - is this important?
Alworth may not be so important, but Hadl partially explains why the Chargers put Kemp on waivers and changed the course of history. However, Alworth is the type of player that serves the purpose of landmarking time. People reading wondering if Kemp was part of the Alworth era will have their answer, much like mentioning O.J. serves the same purpose at the other end of Kemp's career.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are the exact dates of the RNCs important? It feels repetitive to say "July 15, 1980 at the 1980..." when it could just say "at the 1980 and 1984 RNCs"
This paragraph needs a little reordering "Kemp was in the United States Army Reserves when his unit, the San Diego-based 977th Transportation Company, was activated for duty on October 15, 1961 " - this starts out talking about October 1961, then August, then September.
"interviewed at Kemp's Congressional office." - was Wanniski interviewing for a job or interviewing Kemp?
The secondary source (NYTimes) is ambiguous: Jude Wanniski, then an editorial writer for The Wall Street Journal and a devoted supply-sider, dropped by Mr. Kemp's Congressional office for an interview.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. The article appears very well-sourced and comprehensive. However, the prose needs work to reduce redundancy and to weed out irrelevant information. There is also a serious issue with people's opinions being presented and not being properly attributed. This leads the article to have a slight pro-Kemp POV. I've highlighted a few instances of this, but the entire article should be gone through with a fine-tooth comb to get all of them.
I'm not entirely sure why so much space is given to describing Fairfax high School. I'd cut it down to "Kemp attended Fairfax High School,[1] which is known both for its historically high concentration of Jewish students and for producing celebrities. Over 95 percent of Kemp's classmates were Jewish and he became a supporter of Jewish causes." and then move onto "Kemp learned to embrace diversity and hard work during his experience working with his brothers at his father's trucking company in downtown Los Angeles". Unless you know of any celebrities who were Kemp's classmates, that list does not belong in this article, and neither does information about what Fairfax looked like 50 years after Kemp was there.
There are still too many random facts included. Why does this matter "Boasting an alumni of notable actors, athletes, and musicians, Fairfax is noted by celebrity-seeking guides"? Why does the location of the school matter in this article? I would also remove this sentence "Other alumni born in the 1930s include Chuck Essegian, David Janssen, Jerry Leiber, Norm Sherry, Phil Spector and Arnold Steinhardt.", because we have no idea whether they were actually in school with Kemp or not (someone born in 1930 would have graduated when Kemp arrived; Kemp would have graduated before someone born in the later years got there). Keep the article focused on facts directly relevant to Kemp. Karanacs (talk) 15:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the 1930s list. I am trying to give the paragraph a flavor that he went to a very famous high school, with rich kids and future celebrities. If you have ever been to Hollywood, you may be familiar with the part of its tourism industry that ferries tourists around to celebrity sites. His high school was on the list of destinations. Saying he went to Fairfax gives the reader no information other than the name of the school. There was much more than name to inform the reader about. The purpose of mentioning a high school for a person sho is who is most notable for things that happened in his fifties and sixties is to explain his background at the FA level. For a start or B-class article just knowing the name is good. For an FA, many high schools contributed significantly to the subjects background. That is the case here. Melrose Avenue/Place is a famous street. This contributes to the flavor of the paragraph.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"the Kemps switched their official residence " - does this mean they moved or they had 2 homes and just choose to spend more time in the other one?
It is standard for a congressman to have a home in his district and in the Washington DC area. I don't have any good sources for this fact though. I am also unsure whether the Kemps continue to own their New York State residence. Do you want the text to change in any way?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if this might be better placed later in the article. At this point, his political career hasn't been established yet. Karanacs (talk) 15:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph beginning "After his experience with the NFL, Kemp served as a private in the..." needs help with the prose. This just doesn't flow well.
There is a lot of unnecessary detail in the article. For example:
Does it matter where Joanne attended high school or grew up?
since she is not notable, his is the place to describe his family. It is probably no less relevant than the fact that his sons played pro football. I don't think removing the information improves the project.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What value does adding the information give? I don't think anyone would care where she grew up or went to school. Karanacs (talk) 15:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, the article dedicates all of two sentences to Kemp's wife. This is hardly overemphasis. There are many possible levels of details in the article. We could say Kemp has been married for fifty years to someone. We could say who by adding her first name. We could also add her maiden name. We could give their relationship an explanation. In this case we just note that the were college sweethearts. We could give some background on the woman. If she was from a notable family we could mention her notable family members and business ventures. For example, it is not uncommon to say something like Kemp married so and so, who is the daughter of big daddy x and mother y. Big daddy x was the son of super big daddy z who founded mamoth company xx. By omission, here it is implied that she is not of a notable family. How much should we say. Secondary sources have told us where she is from and nothing more. We report what secondary sources say. I think that is a good guideline in this case for what to include. If Kemp had had four wives each sharing the role of non-notable significant other, then jsut mentioning names might be O.K. In this case, I actually wish I could say something like Joanne grew up as a cheerleader in Fillmore and was a cheerleader at Occidentally when she met Jack. We have no such detail. I think the sentence describing where she is from is a keeper.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it matter, in this article, why the Chargers moved to San Diego? Couldn't that just be shortened to "In 1961, the Chargers moved to San Diego. That year, Kemp led them to a 12-2 record..."
The two instances are so far apart that I didn't pick up on it. I still think it doesn't add anything, and in an article this long anything that can be left out probably should. Karanacs (talk) 15:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is this important? "Kemp's 1961 Chargers roommate and Pro Football Hall of Famer, Ron Mix was denied a deferment" Was Mix injured? If not, no real comparison.
Why is so much information included about the Yellowstone Mountain Club?
The article needs to be reread to try to tighten the prose. For example, phrases like "An interesting event occurred " don't add anything useful to a sentence.
In an article that at last count had 1338 wikilinks, it is very likely that 1 or 2% of these are of debatable necessity. I personally don't know that much about bulldozers and have not even read their article on WP. I do however feel that the reader should be able to find out a little bit about them since we mention them. I kind of feel the same way about snowballs, except that I think many readers know as much as they might want to about them by personal experience. I will unlink the latter, but find it hard to beleieve that most readers know a lot about bulldozers even though they may know what the term means. In the context of this article, I believe it is likely that a WP:GA or better article on bulldozers might mention that on occasion they are used outside of construction for snow removal. It might describe particular models specially designed for snow removal rather than as a construction tool. O.K. wait a second, I am going to take my first look at the bulldozer page. this section should mention snow removal modifications. I'd be interestted in knowing what is different about a bulldozer used for snow removal than for earthmoving.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to include the weights in stones. Kg should be enough.
again this is for the international reader. The convert template has this special three measurement parameterization, so I assume a non-trivial portion of the international readers want to see stones even though you and I might not.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:MOSQUOTE, don't use cquotes; use blockquote instead. However, it also says don't offset quotations of 4 lines or less.
This is an example of multiple problems I've seen throughout the article:
"Kemp is described as the most proactive combatant in the war on poverty since Robert Kennedy,[76] but Kemp's view on a war on poverty was quite different than earlier combatants such as Lyndon Johnson, for example, since Kemp believed in incentive-based systems instead of more traditional government social programs"
Outright repetition "war on poverty" phrase used twice in the same sentence
Please note that the changes you fixed to this sentence were only examples; I saw similar problems throughout the article. Karanacs (talk) 15:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not familiar with this scandal and not sure what the sentence is trying to say "The article explained allegations of 1967 Sacramento office Reagan staffer homosexual activity that Kemp has been cleared of." (and please don't end a sentence with a preposition)
This sentence seems a little POV-ish. A rewrite into more encyclopedic terms or a better disclosure of who said this might help "is as fondly remembered for his good hair and handsome looks as for his athletic prowess and political savvy"
statements like this are a little grandiose "Thereafter, Kemp began espousing supply side economics far and wide" - perhaps a bit more clarification?
Unnecessary wikilinking - prisons, medical treatment, credit car...
" 1988, if Kemp had succeeded when he surrendered his congressional seat to run for President of the United States,[3] it would have made him the first person to move from the United States House of Representatives to the White House since James Garfield" - However, he didn't win, and I'm sure he's not the only Representative to try, so why is this important?
"although he was a successful man of ideas" sounds a bit POV.
"The political pundits recognized him, however, as a visionary idea man." - I doubt this was all political pundits. This should mention specific political pundits
The two clauses in this sentence don't have an obvious connection to me "Although Kemp was unable to procure money for his visions, he was among the administration's leading users of first-class corporate jets.[1"
"Bush's vision on racial issues was compared to a man riding backward in a railroad car, never seeing anything until it had rushed past him" - Ouch! This should definitely be attributed to a specific person.
what about the LA reiots made Kemp "a focal point of the administration"? This needs to be expanded a bit.
"of Kemp's most storied fundraisers occurred during the Super Bowl XXVIII festivities." - what about it was storied? (sorry, I don't get it)
"Kemp was considered the star of the 1992 Republican National Convention." - by whom?
there should not be external links in the body of the article, and there is not reason to list the NYSE codes anyway for the companies he's served on (those should be in the company articles)
I feel like some of the information in the Post-political life section is really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (see Wikipedia:Recentism). For example, why is it important that this article mention
that he served as an intermediary with Dole and Gingrich?
that he gave money to Libby?
his involvement in Defense of Democracies? (doesn't even say how he was involved)
This sentence does not belon in the books section: "Kemp, who at the time of writing An American Renaissance was a newly converted supply-side economics convert, says the message is best summarized as saying that "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Oppose—The writing is not of the required professional standard. Please don't fix just these random examples; another person is necessary to sift through the whole article.
My AmEng dictionary says "well known" must be hyphenated. I think this has come up before in your nominations.
"Kemp has had official roles to promote American football and advocate for retired professional football players. In addition, he has authored, co-authored, and edited several books." He has "had" roles to? Sounds as though he had roles in order to ...—is that the meaning? Clumsy sentence in all. Remove "In addition".
"The Berlin Wall was erected in August 1961...."—A para opening with this would be expected to have something obvious to do with the topic. But the reader has to work hard to piece together what on earth its relevance is. Very poor cohesion, stuck in a section on football.
More cohesion issues: "This ploy did not get by Buffalo Bill coach Lou Saban, and the Bills picked up Kemp for the $100 waiver fee on 25 September,[34] one of the biggest bargains in pro football history." This starts a section, but refers back to the previous section. Bad idea. "get by" is rather informal. So is "picked up for"—ungrammatical, probably. This part, and the end of the previous section, are all a bit beyond the non-expert. Context should be established more transparently. Same issue about assumed expertise in "a blowout pre-season loss"—I have no idea what "blowout" means. Engage me as a non-expert, and I might be interested; you could teach me something.
The requirement for professional standards of formatting, and MOS's guideline about overlinking: "bulldozer": run past me why that needs to be linked?
Repeating the argument from above with another reviewer: In an article that at last count had 1339 wikilinks, it is very likely that 1 or 2% of these are of debatable necessity. I personally don't know that much about bulldozers and have not even read their article on WP. I do however feel that the reader should be able to find out a little bit about them since we mention them. I doubt that most readers know a lot about bulldozers even though they may know what the term means. In the context of this article, I believe it is likely that a WP:GA or better article on bulldozers might mention that on occasion they are used outside of construction for snow removal. It might describe particular models specially designed for snow removal rather than as a construction tool. this section should mention snow removal modifications. I'd be interestted in knowing what is different about a bulldozer used for snow removal than for earthmoving.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't provide imperial units and then both metric and imperial units (st?) within the parentheses.
Oppose for now sorry. I have spent the past hour reading the article, [44], so I should comment. The article is close to FA standard but not quite there. For an article of this length, the prose has to be excellent and engaging. Some sections are: Congress (1971-1989), but the standard falls again. There are ambiguous sentences beginning with some and a lot of redundancy. I feel that the article could be reduced by at least 10%, without losing any facts. The punctuation is a problem: more commas please. Lastly, are there better expressions for heavily jewish, culture him, historically high, (sounds like it no longer is), and rigorous reader. I'm sorry to oppose the promotion of such a fine article. Please get a fresh pair of eyes to go through it. GrahamColmTalk15:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Closing notes: With the accumulation of five substantial opposes, the initial supporting comments of "With a penetrating focus on the various phases of Kemp's life and career, an eminently readable style ..." and "Terrific writing ..." become difficult to rationalize. I suggest following the tips at WP:FCDW/March 17, 2008 to open and invite previous opposers and peer review volunteers to help prepare the article for FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Oppose—The lead is insufficient, per Wikipedia:Lead section. Large sections are without references. The references that do exist are not formatted correctly or are missing vital information, such as publisher and accessdate. I suggest working toward good article first—this needs a major amount of work before it can be featured. Pagrashtak17:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly recommend withdrawal (again): The most cursory of glances reveals substantial deficiencies. WP:LEAD is inadequate; entire sections are unreferenced; references are of questionable reliability (e.g. current ref 6 address implies it is a blog), grammar is poor; prose is poor; even basic MOS is not followed (e.g. captions); etc. ЭLСОВВОLДtalk17:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article is almost at FAC status. Just a few more hours work, a little tweaking here, a little tweaking there. Yep, that should just about do it. :) GaryKing(talk)06:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose I didn't even have to read past the first half of the article to see that it's not even close to being FA-worthy. Lack of references, short lead, not the best writing, MoS, etc. Needs a total rewrite. JuliancoltonTropicalCyclone16:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Sorry. The prose ranges from non-encyclopedic at best to very poor, with euphemisms, colloquialisms and clichés. There are not enough reliable references. The point of view is not neutral and is biased in favour of the subject. The article needs a peer-review, a copy-edit, to be tested by the Good Article criteria before FAC can even be considered. It has a long way to go. GrahamColmTalk17:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Self-nomination. I'm nominating this article for featured article because I believe it meets the FA criteria (though perhaps some of the strings of footnotes need to be modified -- but I don't see any guidance on how best to do this, I didn't receive any instruction on it from PR, but I hope to quickly resolve it here). I am a primary contributor to the article. --Flex (talk/contribs) 14:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Has someone demanded the multiple citations in a row? I see them in several sections, including the lead. I think they're distracting. I understand that anything involving interpretation of the Bible will be controversial, but if you plan to cite claims in the text that appear also in the lead, I think it's ok to leave the citations out of the lead. I also notice whopping lists of citations in the Alcoholic content section. I suggest you cite a claim three times at the most, or include further phrases or sentences that those citations back up.
Can you put the three points of a list into prose in the first section?
I've never seen such a citation method as what is in the Hebrew and Greek tables. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that I'm unfamiliar with it. Other editors here are more familiar with proper citing methods than I.
I had no idea such a claim as this was possible: All interpreters agree that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures condemn ordinary drunkenness in passages such as these (all from the NIV) When was the last time all interpreters agreed on anything Biblical?
It would help to name Holofernes in the text as he's depicted in an image (this is one of my favorite paintings, btw).
This is a lonely sentence: In short, in biblical literature ordinary drunkenness is a serious spiritual and moral failing.l that should be attached to a paragraph. In fact, you have a few one-sentence paragraphs. You might also want to consider joining some of your smaller paragraphs together.
Hi! Thanks for your comments. I'll do my best to address them in the article soon, but I wanted to reply to your first bullet. The article has received numerous fact requests -- either in the form of editing changes or {{fact}} requests -- from a few Christians who believe (against a broad and numerous scholarly consensus but not without a few scholars of their own) that wine etc. were usually non-alcoholic in the Bible. Here's one on this article, but they are and have been more frequent over at the related article Christianity and alcohol, from which this article spun off. Here's one for the latter article from this morning changing the text and requesting a citation for the very first phrase in the intro, which is already cited below in the body. I have typically duplicated the references as requested rather than repeatedly revert and point the (usually anonymous) editor down to another part of the article. --Flex (talk/contribs) 17:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand it's controversial. I think there are ways to handle it. I suggest you take the citations out of the lead unless you're quoting a statement. If people have specific problems with a claim in the article, cite it three times, then place other citations within a footnote section, similarly to what I had to do with Citation #88 in To Kill a Mockingbird. You chose a topic that it seems lots of people have an interest in, so you may be fending people off for a long time with fact tags. But if you want it to be FA, I think you're going to have to clean up the lists of citations. --Moni3 (talk) 00:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the response. I have attempted to address all your concerns (do you have any further comments on those?), save for the first bullet. I'm fine with trimming down or reworking the references as you suggest, and I'll definitely take a look at TKAM. However, since that change is (potentially) a big job, I'd like to get further input on the best way to do it for the whole article so I know everyone will be satisfied. As for the tables of Greek and Hebrew, such things are present in many secondary and tertiary works dealing with this subject, e.g., Gentry's God Gave Wine, Reynold's Biblical Approach to Alcohol, "wine" in Cyclopeadia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, "wine" in Easton's Bible Dictionary, and "Wine; wine press" in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. I have tried to make them a little more useful and accessible by tablizing the lists. --Flex (talk/contribs) 02:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This was an interesting article, but I can't support in its current format due to citation issues.
There is massive overlinking in the article. Examples of words in the lead that do not need to be wikilinked: joy, blesssing, fruit, beer, vineyard, wine, grape juice)
this sentence is not worded well "The relationships between Judaism and alcohol and Christianity and alcohol have generally followed this same pattern, with some dissenters particularly among Christians around the time of Prohibition.'
This clause needs to be reworded "each is a set of historical artifacts that evidence views during their respective time periods of composition and editing"; it makes it sound as if the evidencing only occurred whilethe books were written instead of providing evidence of attitudes of the time they were written
I echo Moni's skepticism of this claim; "All interpreters agree that the New Testament teaching on and exemplary use of alcoholic beverages reflects the attitudes and ideas found in earlier biblical literature"; If it remains in the article it needs big-time sourcing
Per WP:EL, there should be no external links in the body of the article.
Rather than ass "see Christianity and alcohol on the different viewpoints" into the article, can this go in a "Further information" template at the top of that section
" either sold for consumption or stored in a cellar or cistern, lasting for three to four years" - needs to be reworded; lasting implies the wine goes bad or is discarded after 3-4 years
Again, a bold "all interpreters believe" claim must be vigorously source: "All interpreters agree that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures condemn ordinary drunkenness in passages such as these "
"In short, in biblical literature ordinary drunkenness is a serious spiritual and moral failing" - we don't really need concluding sentences to sum up everything in that section.
I know that the footnote for the sentence "Kings were forbidden to abuse alcohol lest their judgments be unjust." says that there are differing interpretations of that sentence, but it again needs to be presented in the prose. otherwise the article appears to be contradicting itself.
can you add a wikilink to first fruits? I was not familiar with the term
I am concerned that many interpretations of the text in the Bible are sourced to a Bible verse and not to a scholarly book. The article makes it clear that translations vary and that scholars disagree on the meaning of some passages. To then source an interpretation of the verse to the Bible itself is bordering on WP:OR, in my opinion.
again, an "all agreed" with no source "No matter what the reason why he abstained or had stomach problems, all agree that the wine in question was intended as medicine to help improve Timothy's health"
I have now attempted to address these concerns. My comments and questions follow:
Regarding your third bullet, I intended to say exactly how you understood it because I did not want to presume the correctness of any theory about the times when the books were written. For instance, some say Deuteronomy was substantially penned by Moses, while others say it was Davidic, while others say it was post-exilic (cf. Deuteronomy#Composition, which is incomplete but gives enough of the general idea). The post-exilic customs were surely much different than those of the time of Moses, and since respectable scholars still argue for each different time period, I don't want to assume that the customs as written accurately reflect the customs of the time portrayed rather than a later time.
Regarding the external links, I am a big enforcer of the guidelines about ELs in the body. However, I'd note that the guidelines say links should "not normally" be used in the body. I deviated in two ways here that I think are reasonable exceptions (i.e., non-normal circumstances). First, I link to Biblegateway.com for some Bible verses, but I don't see this as significantly different from using the {{bibleverse}} template, except that I can cite multiple verses at once. Once I decided to make use of multiple verse citations, which I think is far easier for the reader than linking to each individual verse, I just made it consistent throughout for all the verses. Second, in the Greek and Hebrew tables, I link to the entry in Strong's concordance, combined with some Hebrew and Greek lexicons. Since this is where I got some of the definitions from and since the Strong's number is a common way to reference the words, I added a link. It don't think it would be unreasonable, however, to move the linking of the Strong's number into a footnote instead if you think that is much to be preferred.
Regarding your suggestion for using {{further}}, my only hang up is that putting it at the top of the section means that it is not clear why the reader should see that article. Here the article is referenced only to define abstentionist and prohibitionist. Perhaps I should just define them inline in addition to referencing that article in some way for more info?
Regarding "lasting for three to four years", you have understood correctly. According to the cited sources, the stored wine would only last 3-4 years max. Should I reword it?
Regarding the statement about kings, I think the sentence "Kings were forbidden to abuse alcohol lest their judgments be unjust," could be affirmed by anyone. The dispute comes in when one tries to define "abuse," which moderationists and some abstentionists take to mean "use too much" and other abstentionists and all prohibitionists take to mean simply "use". Is it not sufficiently neutral/ambiguous for you?
Regarding citing the Bible: I see that I need to make this clearer. Except for a few isolated cases that I've tried to cover in some detail with multiple sources, there isn't much dispute when it comes to wine except for the lexicography (e.g., is the meaning of yayin/oinos alcoholic or non-alcoholic in some particular passage?). So, to take the first two citations as examples, no one -- and I think I can honestly say that without fear of any reasoned contradiction from any quarter whatsoever -- disputes that the Bible says Noah planted a vineyard and got drunk in Ge 9:20-27, and no one disputes that the Bible says Jesus made wine at the wedding at Cana in Jn 2. Moreover, no one disputes that yayin (oinos in the LXX) in the Noah story mean fermented juice since it is clear that drunkenness resulted from him drinking it. OTOH, some abstentionists and all prohibitionists argue that at Cana the oinos must be assumed to be non-alcoholic (or at the very least highly diluted). So the disputable part is entirely related to the definitions of the beverage words, not that the Bible says wine or some other beverage was used.
I think it would be nigh impossible to write an article about alcohol in the Bible without citing the primary source rather extensively (cf. the encyclopedia articles like those I cited above for Moni3, which have different standards than the WP but still provide a good comparison). I could cite secondary sources for each of these Bible citations also, but that would just about quintuple the number of references. Where there is dispute, I have attempted to express it. Are there particular places where you think I need a secondary source? How can I do this better?
Have I addressed all your concerns, aside from any that you already raised or re-raised based on my responses above? Do you have any input on how I should best handle multiple source citations?[1][2][3][4][5][6] --Flex (talk/contribs) 03:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have added more details for the first image, but I'm not sure what to do about the second. Its info from the Commons (not to mention common knowledge) seems to indicate that it's PD-art, but there is no source given. I compared the image at the Web Gallery of Art, but it doesn't match (different camera? different point in its restoration?). What should I do to fix this? --Flex (talk/contribs) 21:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, there's no concern about the {{PD-Art}} license, only the source (lack thereof). Options include to 1) replace with a sourced version (we have several), 2) ask the original uploader where they got it (if they're still active), 3) upload a new, sourced image or 4) don't include a last supper image. Obviously, option one is easy. ;) ЭLСОВВОLДtalk21:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Firm Oppose What you do have is really sterling work, but the article doesn't seem to be truly comprehensive in its coverage. If the topic is "alcohol in the bible", then you've left what seems to be a considerable amount of factual material about the impact of the coverage of alcohol in the bible societally. It's not just about the various theoretical interpretations of the individual passages, it's about how the coverage of alcohol in the bible has impacted Western society. To be comprehensive, this article must give information about how alcohol in the bible informed the real world use and abuse of the substance. For example: How did mentions of alcohol in the bible impact the push for American Prohibition? Supposedly during the push for Prohibition, entire alcohol-free bibles were printed. How does the coverage of alcohol in the bible compare to that of other major religious texts, such as the koran, buddhist texts, hindu texts, etc.? You're just missing all of the historical context that makes this topic important. A mere recounting of mentions and their various liturgical interpretations by theologians is not enough by a long shot. VanTucky01:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply. Regarding the historical context, you seem to be asking for some of the same content as at Christianity and alcohol. For reference, I started that article, and because of length as it developed, I broke the section on "Alcohol in the Bible" off as this {{main}} article, per WP:SUMMARY. Consequently, I tried to keep this article focused on the texts at hand as its subject matter and let the summary article(s) handle its impact on history of alcohol in general and the traditions of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, Bahá'í Faith, or any other group that regards the Bible as at least somewhat holy. Thus, my first reaction is to say that that sort of material doesn't really belong here and would expand this article beyond its titular purpose, but I'm open to being convinced. On the other hand, I don't think a brief comparison with other religious texts like would necessarily be out of place, though given the title of this article and the large number of other religious texts out there, perhaps a separate article would be best for that as well (cf. Summary_of_Christian_eschatological_differences). --Flex (talk/contribs) 02:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (forgive my typing, I'm on the road with an unfamiliar laptop keyboard)
If you're going to use the short bibliographical details in the notes with the fuller bibliographical details in the references section, can you put the last name of the author of the work first in the references?
I share the concerns about the amount of information sourced to the bible, and what makes http://www.biblegateway.com/ a reliable site for giving the verses? Do they have permission to reproduce some of these versions? Translations may be copyrighted.
while we are discussing links to bible versions, why do a few of the verses have a last access date?
The New Schaff Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge is an older work. Is there nothing newer?
The Beecher "Total abstinence" ref doesn't appear to be used in the notes?
A LOT of these sources are pretty old, but a spot check of how they are used doesn't give much information out how old the sources backing up the information is. For example, this phrase "while most interpreters contend that only inappropriate use is in view here." from the Drunkeness section is sourced to a source from 2005, to John Wesley (18th century), an early 18th century source, and one from 1748. That's quite a spread, that the sentence doesn't explicate.
Surely we can find something more scholarly than a book published by The Reader's Digest?
I'm on the road again, and the link checker tool doesn't like this hotel's ISP, I am getting a LOT of timeout errors, which I suspect are related to the hotel ISP. Ealdgyth - Talk02:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One objection - the table must be made comprehensive. "Etc." is unacceptable. I think that this can be done without making the table too large. If it can't then the table needs to be collapsed or moved to a separate list, which this article summarizes in an objective manner (i.e. it can't cherry-pick examples). Savidan17:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I have donated a great deal of effort towards this article. I'm strongly looking for suggestions and opinions of other editors to get this to FA status. Thanks. -Wildroot (talk) 03:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a really good article for a really good movie. A think that the plot section could possibly be expanded a bit, considering the size of the rest of the article. I would also be interested in a brief section on the soundtrack with a {{Main}} link. Looks good overall. Good work. Grsztalk05:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Picky, but if you're going to refer to a book subsequently by its author's last name, it'd be nice if they were listed by the last name first so that you can find the full bibliographical entry easier.
Comment it strikes me as odd that the only screenshot is Wolfman Jack... and I think the caption is a little hokey. Can I have some more justification of why it's an image of him and not a group image or the main characters? 128.175.80.4 (talk) 17:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a pivotal moment in the film, where the main protagonist sees the outlook of his decision. However, I probably should add an image of the group or something.—Wildroot (talk) 21:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the opening sentence is too long and complicated. "American Graffiti is a comedy-drama film directed by George Lucas." should be enough. The genre as of now (with the year also attached) is a little confusing to read. Overlinking galore: don't link Lucas, Universal, Coppola or any of the actors after their mention in the prose. indopug (talk) 11:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Humph, "If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so after the reviewer's signature rather than striking out or splitting up the reviewer's text." Also, I see Universal, Ron Howard among other things still overlinked. indopug (talk) 19:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Neutral: I love this film, so I'm glad to see its article is of such high quality. A few points:
"Storyline" is one word.
Another user mentioned overlinking above, and I have to agree. Ron Howard and Wolfman Jack are linked three or four times in the body of the article and there are other examples of similar terms; it's not a big deal, but it's annoyingly repetitive.
That characters and actors are mentioned in the plot and the separate "Cast" section is also somewhat repetitive, as well. I've seen film articles that take an either/or stance with this and I approve: if there's a cast section, there's no need to have parenthetical actors' names in the plot section.
Why isn't there a section on the soundtrack? 41 Original Hits from the Soundtrack of American Graffiti exists as a spin-off article, but shouldn't there be a short, summarized section about the impact of the film's soundtrack in the main film article? The music plays such an important role in the film, it seems a shame to ignore it. All that we have now is a "see also" link at the top and details about how much the rights cost.
I can't really find info on how successful the soundtrack was. However, I could "merge" the soundtrack article into a section. I did that same thing for The Truman Show. What do you guys think?—Wildroot (talk) 00:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Changed my !vote to neutral; Johnbod and others below brought up some very good points that I did not previously take into account. Note to Wildroot: in responding to reviewers, you may wish to tune down the attitude. Replies like "Yeesh" and dismissing well meaning comments as "dumb suggestions" will only turn people off from this nomination. You're not entitled to satisfy every single person here, but politeness goes a long way. Just FYI. María(habla conmigo) 18:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: A great film, nice to see a full article review. Some minor, very minor points below:
Lucas stated, "I was Terry [the Toad], fumbling with girls. Then I became a drag racer like John [Milner]. And finally I became Curt [Henderson]." could be written as stated without the editor's notations as to characters.
"Lucas contacted Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck to write the script, but they were too busy with Messiah of Evil (1972). However Katz and Huyck were willing to write the story with Lucas." Confusing, were they too busy and yet worked on the script?
Katz and Huyck didn't work on the script right away. They turned it down at first because they were working on Messiah of Evil. They basically were nice enough to help Lucas write a little story outline. NOT a script. However, later on (probably like a year), they had their schedules open to help Lucas with his screenplay with dialouge and stuff. I hope that answers your question.—Wildroot (talk) 05:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"contributory factor", try "contributed."
done
"They also passed on the science fiction idea, which Lucas temporarily shelved (this would eventually become the birth of Star Wars)." Awkward phrasing, were they involved in the Star Wars? evidently not, so it really doesn't lead to the film. "Birth of" = "genesis, creation, start, beginning."
done
Love the quote and the use of a quotebox.
thank you
"with Steve Bolander (Ron Howard) and Laurie Henderson's (Cindy Williams) storyline" instead "with the Steve Bolander (Ron Howard) and Laurie Henderson (Cindy Williams) storyline" or "with the storylines of Steve Bolander (Ron Howard) and Laurie Henderson (Cindy Williams)." Note "storyline" correctly spelled here.
done
"Other locations included Sonoma, Richmond, Van Ness, and Novato" is a list, eliminate the Harvard comma, and write it as " Other locations included Sonoma, Richmond, Van Ness and Novato."
done
That other title list is huge and detracts from the rest of the article. Have you considered a framing statement and a sub-article?
Major area to consider is to set up a true endnotes and bibliography since you have references that stem from major works. e.g. References: Notes: (1) Hearn 2005, pp. 55–57. (2) Hearn 2005, p. 53. Bibliography: Hearn, Marcus. The Cinema of George Lucas. New York: Harry N. Abrams, Inc., 2005. ISBN 0-8109-4968-7. If you are interested, I can help you set up this system with Harvard citations (which you are using – sort of...) and an APA or MLA bibliographical record. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 06:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC).[reply]
Oppose The article is not ready yet. The prose is below the required standard in many places. There are missing prepositions, tense-switching and some strange expressions. I have made some suggestions here, [45] and below are more examples:
The film's box office success made George Lucas an instant millionaire, giving a large amount of the profits to Haskell Wexler for his visual consulting help during filming, and to Wolfman Jack. - and he gave ?
Don't see any problem
...was intrigued by the idea and impressed with Lucas's work on THX 1138 (1971), offering Lucas the chance to direct Lady Ice (1973). - and offered ?
Don't see any problem
...and intrigued with both American Graffiti and Lucas's untitled science fiction film, giving Lucas $10,000 to develop a script. - gave Lucas?
I Don't know what your problem is, but in wikipedia we like to copyedit. I believe you are trying to say something in your three suggestions above but I can't tell what you are trying to say. —Wildroot (talk) 03:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Filming was interrupted by fixing camera mounts to cars .. - ??
Don't see any problem
The final shooting script came 160 pages. - ? to ?
Lucas persuaded the studio for a $775,000 budget, which made Coppola reluctant enough to start raising money himself, although Coppola ultimately failed. - reluctant enough ?
Yes, Coppola was inspired to start funding some own money but he failed. Does that answer your question?
His girlfriend Laurie, who is also Curt's year-younger sister, is unsure of him leaving, - year-younger ?
PS The nominator should not strike-out any of the reviewers' comments. To date they have all been added by the nominator.If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so after the reviewer's signature rather than striking out or splitting up the reviewer's text.GrahamColmTalk13:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. The prose is frankly pretty poor - take the opening para, bits in bold:
American Graffiti is a 1973 comedy-drama film directed by George Lucas, and written by Lucas, Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck. The film includes a cast of Richard Dreyfuss, Ron Howard, Paul Le Mat, Charles Martin Smith, Cindy Williams, Candy Clark, Mackenzie Phillips and Harrison Ford. American Graffiti is set in 1962 Modesto, California, and tells of the exploits of a group of teenagers and their adventures within one night of driving around town, listening to pirate radio personality Wolfman Jack (who cameos as himself)."
-personally I would prefer "has a cameo role" too. There is persistent poor use of present participles. Despite the nominator's "I'm strongly looking for suggestions and opinions of other editors" the valid points by others above have been mostly dismissed, and unless this changes, don't expect my !vote to change. The plot section should include the final "what happened to them" bits. Generally the legacy section could do with a bit more on the wider 50s/early 60s nostalgia of which the film was an important popularizer. Johnbod (talk) 14:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, I striked out those comments because I completed them. I listened to all your guys' suggestions and I did the ones I found to be at least good for this article. Some of you guys had dumb suggestions that weren't even that big of a deal. I'm sorry I crossed them out, I must have read the statements wrong at WP:FAC. I thought it said cross them out rather than using graphics. My bad. For know on I'll just put Done at the end of every comment when it is, well, "done".—Wildroot (talk) 15:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This is a great film that deserves a comprehensive wikipedia article. Unfortunately, I have to agree with many of the previous comments regarding the extremely poor prose of the article. This should have gone through a peer review prior to nomination.-Hal Raglan (talk) 23:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Self-nomination as major contributor. I'm nominating this article for featured article because it meets all of the featured article criteria and is a well written and concise article about the football team. weburiedoursecretsinthegarden15:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Jimmy Philip.jpg: source makes no claim of when this image was first published. How do we know it was published before 1.1.1923? Existing and being published are not the same thing.
I passed this as a GA, and it's improved since. However, I think it may have been better to put it through a Peer Review, before coming here. I can't support it until all the references have been sorted as above. I had some concerns of these at GAN, but they have certainly improved since the first GAN. Some other comments though:
Don't force the image sizes where it's unnecessary.
Done.
"but the silverware ended up in Glasgow." - silverware is informal.
Changed to "league title".
"Aberdeen remain the only Scottish club to have won two European trophies." I think this needs a reference.
Doing...
"Following Ferguson, a succession of managers tried to live up to the standards he had set, most meeting with little or no success." As does this probably.
I'll add this in line with my other comments, but I've spotted this because of a suggestion below. "German giants Bayern Munich" is WP:PEACOCK. Needs to be changed to another more factual description for Bayern Munich. Peanut4 (talk) 19:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
Weak object The history section has a recentist slant because two paragraphs are about the last four years, whereas most of the early periods are divided into groups about 20 years for two paragraphs. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'm wavering here. The article has no major flaws, but still has some rough edges which need to be sorted out before it can become a featured article.
As much as I like images of Manchester United defeats, a picture of a match involving two other clubs is of no relevance here. There is also an inconsistency between the use of FC Copenhagen in the caption and FC København in the body.
Hehe, gone.
German giants (and 1983 throwbacks) Bayern München. There is no mention of an event in 1983 anywhere else in the section, and the term "throwbacks" is too informal for encyclopedic use.
Gone also.
The History section has a tendency to follow the pattern "In [year], [manager] was appointed, he did x and y". A little rephrasing to make parts more club-focused than manager-focused would be beneficial.
Doing this.
The Ferguson era deserves more depth; it currently has roughly the same amount of prose as this season's European run.
Expanded this.
Shirt sponsorship began in 1987, and the initial shirt sponsor was JVC, who also sponsored Arsenal in England. I don't see why their Arsenal sponsorship is relevant. Also, this is one of a few run-on sentences present in the article.
Removed the irrelevant stuff, working on the run on sentences
fifth largest average attendance in the SPL in 2006–07,[41] with more than 10,000. The ref gives an exact figure, so there's no need to use an approximation.
Comment. OK, I admit that I am influenced by the fact that the period in which I lived in Aberdeen (and went to Pittodrie fairly regularly) was during the shambolic 1999-2000 season. And shambolic it surely was... by some strange fluke they got to the Scottish cup final but ended up having to field a midfielder in goal; and they were in Europe, again by some strange set of circumstances, only to lose to some Irish part-timers. Anyhow, my point being... does the article not rather blow Aberdeen's trumpet? Yes, they are arguably Scotland's third football team, but they come so far behind Celtic and Rangers it's not funny. (This is briefly referenced in the fact that they were the last club outside the Old Firm to win the League... almost a quarter of a century ago...)
Otherwise, the prose could do with improvement. There are innumerable which/that issues, and other areas where fluency and coherence could be improved. If I have time, I may dive in and undertake some edits myself, rather than listing them all here. One very small instance, because it's almost comic: "Aberdeen were inspired by Halliday, now playing in red." Presumably it's not Halliday who was playing in red, despite the implication left the by grammatical construction? (Sidenote: this is an endemic problem in Wikipedia: someone should write up some sort of tutorial about the use of dependent clauses.) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 00:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right, well, I've fixed the one example you gave, but I don't think the article needs changing for POV. Any other football FA will read like this one; in my mind, this is better than saying "Aberdeen's league record is absolutely terrible compared to the Old Firm", because that is mentioned, but not to the extent of being written by Smithy. weburiedoursecretsinthegarden19:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - One other thing I noticed was in the last paragraph of Supporters and nicknames, last paragraph, ; may be referred to by some supporters as "The Dandy Dons" or "The Dandies",. I would start a new sentence there. Otherwise, I think it meets the criteria, and is ready to be promoted. Giants2008 (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry - quite a lot here, of which the most crucial are some citation issues:
(Opening sentence) Pedantically, Aberdeen Football Club is not "... a team". The team is part of the club, which includes all kinds of assets other than the team itself. Slight reword please.
"Aberdeen's league record is jointly the third best alongside Hibs and Hearts" the nature of the record is ambiguous - is this for league title wins? I'd assume "league record" means either W/D/L record or total points won, or something similar.
Wikilink Donald Colman in the Lead and unlink him later.
"Aberdeen have tended to attract a sizeable support from the city and surrounding areas": "a sizeable" is WP:PEACOCK. By many other clubs' standards, an average of 11,980 is peanuts. By others' it's overwhelming. Just drop those words and it reads fine.
Clumsy: "Aberdeen have no geographically close rivals; their nearest neighbours at the same level are in the city of Dundee, with Dundee United having been their principal rivals in the New Firm in the 1980s." I suggest "Aberdeen have no geographically close rivals. Their nearest neighbours at the same level are in Dundee; in the 1980s, they formed the New Firm rivalry with Dundee United."
In the opening line, you've used plural for the club ("are") which is fine except you've used singular in "The current Aberdeen F.C. was formed" and elsewhere. I suggest that you adopt a strategy I've used in FC articles of referring to the Club in singular (like any business) and the team in the plural. Up to you, but you do need to be consistent.
MOSNUM suggests 7th should be seventh
I'd like to see some citing around the club stopping playing during WWI. Was there competitive football to drop out of?
Colman's invention of the dug-out definitely needs citing. If it's in source 6, it's worth repeating it across the 2 sentences per extraordinary claims
"the Second World War virtually cancelled football competition." Ugh. Please reword.
"Formation and early struggle" section mentions almost no struggling. It looks from the chart as if they finished (almost?) bottom of the league immediately before WWI - this should be specified for balance, and there's definitely some relegation that's not mentioned.
"Steady rise" as a section heading sounds like POV. In my opinion, it's not very steady and the chart seems to agree with me. Either way, it's an opinion, which is bad.
"From this early success, Halliday's side reached two more Scottish Cup finals, in 1953 and 1954" Are you connecting a cup win in 47 with two more 6 and 7 years later? That seems very dubious. How many players played in both 47 and 54?
"Shaw stepped aside for another former favourite player, Tommy Pearson" I might have missed it, but who was the previous former favourite player?
The backbone of Ferguson's side looks like your POV
"Aberdeen remain the only Scottish club to have won two European trophies." needs a cite
"Premier division" is the capitalisation correct?
I found the History section hard going. It seemed quite bitty and without a flow. Could do with being smoothed by a copyeditor - NB I don't think the whole article needs c-e work
Can you smoke anywhere in Pittodrie in 2008? I'm surprised.
Various cites (eg numbers 36 and 37 re the Red Army) need to move to after pieces of punctuation
The Red Ultras website is definitely not RS
Squad list seems unreferenced. Ditto for managers. Ditto for honours. That's three biggies for me.
The Hall of Fame people should be shot for not including Fergie. Just my 2p!
Pulaski Skyway.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Trump International Hotel & Tower (Chicago). The ratio on that one is a little better.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Bush, G.W., 
Toni Preckwinkle and Sandi Jackson to see what I mean. I in fact do not know enough about the political spectrum to say whether you are in fact claiming I am POVing some republican ideologies since Kemp had a liberal bent. I just attempted to paraphrase or pick relevant quotes from various WP:RSs. What would be best is if you think I am POVing, note sentences and words just like some of the edits above and I will go line by line with you. The more your corrections get into iterpreting sociopolitical stuff the longer each response will take. A lot of the above has been just getting grammar and citations correct. Choosing the proper words to correctly relay facts is a slightly more complicated issue that will take longer, but I am willing to go there to get the article right.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
.jpg){kind=link}
.jpg&action=edit&redlink=1){kind=link}
.jpg&action=edit&redlink=1){kind=link}
_-_The_Last_Supper_(1495-1498).jpg){kind=link}
