Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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AFD keep

I'm presently in conflict with another admin (User:Crum375) who claims that, if an article has an AFD resulting in "keep", that article may not be edited, merged, or renamed. I claim that all three of those are regular editing actions and that AFD does not in any way prohibit that. Perhaps not so coincidentally, he wrote the article in question. Could we get some outside opinion from other admins please? >Radiant< 15:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

In general hypothetical theory (i.e. without seeing an article) a Keep doesn't mean an article exists in suspended animation post AFD and those things you've mentioned absolutely can be discussed and undertaken if there is consensus to do so. This is essentially the same thing as when an article is deleted, it may be recreated at a future date provided it meets relevant policies and guidelines. An AFD outcome just decides if the current article as it exists stays or goes it's not a content discussion. I'd also mention that WP:BRD is a good guideline here.--Isotope23 ^talk 15:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course every article can be edited - that's a fundamental part of wikipedia. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Also consensus can change. Majorly (talk) 15:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

AfD does not in any way prohibit normal editing actions on the article afterwards. If, however, there is consensus on the AfD about an editing-based decision (e.g. if there is a clear consensus at an AfD not to rename a page), making that change boldly afterwards (especially soon afterwards) without further discussion first is probably a bad idea, not because it goes against AfD policy, but because making a change that you know consensus is against is probably a bad idea. (I don't know the details of the specific situation, so what I say may be irrelevant to it; I'm talking in general terms here.) --ais523 15:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreement with ais523. If an article survives AFD, it certainly can be edited, but immediately merging it away is probably not the best idea. Unless, of course, that's what the AFD said. Please give the specific case if you want more details. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The article in questions seems to be Mourning sickness. As best I can tell, the main point of contention is that it was originally at Anna Svidersky. The AFD on that article, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Svidersky (2nd nomination), resulted in a "keep". As soon as the AFD ended, the article was redirected to Mourning sickness. Radiant, who did point out Crum375 was the creator of the article, didn't mention it was Radiant who created the AFD on Anna Svidersky, and when it was closed as a "keep", promptly redirected it. I don't really have any comment on the actual discussion, just thought all the facts should be mentioned. Neil ム 15:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

In the AfD it was pretty much acknowledged even by the "Keep" voters that the article wasn't actually about Anna Svidersky herself, but the reaction to her death. I would have thought, though, that the article should probably have gone to "Death of Anna Svidersky" or suchlike rather than to a catch-all article about public mourning. ELIMINATORJR 16:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The Mourning Sickness article was created after most of the editors at the Anna Svidersky article noted that the one single element that was notable or encyclopedic was the reaction to her death. As Crum himself noted "The notable element in the article is the so-called (and reliably sourced) 'mourning sickness' phenomenon, Crum375 19:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)" Unfortunately rather then focus on this encyclopedic element, the Svidersky article tried to act as a biography for a decidedly non-notable person and essentially became a memorial filled with details about when Anna was a little girl and got a reprimand in elementary school for acting up and the time she cut off her hair and donated it to charity, etc. The overwhelming consensus of both AFD's is that Svidersky is not notable nor is her death but rather only the reaction to her death. The section of the Mourning Sickness article dedicated to Svidersky is meant to retain the notable info that the Keep editors wished to retain but with the focus squarely on the encyclopedic content. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

To get back to Radiant's question: of course an AfD keep does not preclude later actions such as redirection, moving, merging, or editing of any kind. That said, when an article has just been kept at AfD, it should be thought of as a debate that bears on what to do with the article. To ignore the opinions in the debate is probably unwise... but then, WP:BRD gives a simple way to resolve it, and those debates don't always show a clear opinion on particular solutions. Mangojuice^talk 16:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Heh. Looks like the AFD had some people saying it should be merged, just like this, and some saying it shouldn't. Good faith dispute. Go talk it out on the article talk page; you may want to contact the people who participated in the AFD. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 17:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the point that most people are missing is that the "article to merge to" is, as Agne points out above, not a seperate article, but a rewritten version of the same article as started during the AFD. >Radiant< 08:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Radiant has blatantly misrepresented Crum375 (note the lack of diff), who is far too experienced to make the claim falsely attributed to him. What Crum375 actually said, less than an hour before Radiant posted here, was, "Please leave this article alone, with the correct post AfD Keep name, until consensus is reached on this talk page."[1] That is entirely in line with the AfD consensus, which the closing admin summed up as, "The result was keep. Please defer merge related comments to article talk."[2]

The history of this is that on 7 August, without any discussion, Radiant moved the article (about a murdered teenager, Anna Svidersky) to the name of the murderer, David Barton Sullivan, [3] which is peculiar, since the sources focus on Svidersky, not Sullivan, as indicated by Google hits 26,500 [4] and 73 respectively.[5] When this was reverted Radiant immediately nominated the article for deletion. The result, as above, was keep and discuss any merge; Radiant then redirected the article, again without any discussion on the article talk page, to Mourning sickness,[6] when it was obvious that this would be a controversial action. His action was reversed and he reverted.[7]. I left a note asking for consensus to be reached first before the redirect was made.[8] The matter was still in dispute on the article talk page, and Radiant made the redirect twice more, [9] (with needless history merge) and [10] (incorrectly claiming consensus). Discussion is still ongoing on Talk:Anna Svidersky, and there is no consensus for the redirect. Radiant's conduct is not exactly a shining example.

Tyrenius 04:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Irony strikes again. My point is that there is no such thing as a "correct AFD keep name", as the many editors above state (since AFD is irrelevant to article naming and renaming). You're just mudslinging here, rather than contributing to the actual discussion. >Radiant< 08:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Presumably the first time irony struck was the "mudslinging" that started this thread. AfD isn't irrelevant if the consensus was "defer merge related comments to article talk", which you failed to mention. You've misrepresented Crum375 again by taking a quote, "correct AFD keep name", out of context: it was only made in this specific application and with the proviso "until consensus is reached on this talk page." There was no notion of it being an absolute statement. You raised the point of correct conduct concerning the AfD, so your own history, which you implicitly associate with "regular editing actions", is relevant and also subject to review. Tyrenius 13:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Radiant, I just politely asked you on your talk page to please consider performing a history split for the 2 articles you merged. I perceive that a certain amount of bad blood (or at least irritation) has been aroused among several of us, but I think that with the collective experience of the editors interested in the future of that article, we can come up with a better solution than the mourning sickness redirect/history merge. Even if some of the past discussions haven't gone well, I think you can trust most of us editors to be civil, prodcutive and deferential to both policy and consensus. There has to be a suitable compromise in store.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 00:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is need here for a cross-ex on this admin or that admin's conduct. I think this is a simple content dispute and I'd like to steer the interested parties to the Request for comment so that we can start to work on that compromise.Agne^Cheese/^Wine 15:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not cross-examining anybody, I'm simply pleading with Radiant to undo that damned history merge so that I can at least make sense of the histories of the two articles. I want to help, but I can't even respond to any arguments or proposed solutions centering around how and why the silly mourning sickness article came about, because that history is now buried among all the Anna Svidersky stuff. If Radiant won't fix it, will you?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 05:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

History split done. Tyrenius 03:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Matt57

As posted on User talk:Matt57#WP:HARASS and Elonka, I've blocked Matt57 for 24 hour for intimidating behavior and stalking another editor. A certain amount of oversight over other editors (including admins, of course) is obviously beneficial: it keeps us all honest and playing by the same rules.

Going so far as to dig through someone's life and prying out things the other person is trying to keep from public view, when they're quite frankly none of any of our business, however, is quite something else. I've redacted a comment (which will hopefully be deleted soon) of Matt57's which in my opinion shows disturbing behavior on his part.

Hopefully, instead of backfiring on me and causing more wiki-drama, this will cause him to rethink his current behavior and change it to something a bit less frightening to us. Just think of how you'd react if someone were digging up your personal information and posting it all on a site that gets mirrored and google-indexed many times a day.

I can only hope that this causes more help than harm. Opinions and views on the situation are requested. I've obviously been opaque on the actual subject matter for a reason. Thanks. ~Kylu (u|t) 05:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen the deleted comment, so can't offer any review of it - perhaps it is blockworthy, as you say…

…but you invited Matt57 to edit articles which Elonka isn't editing.[11] To my knowledge, Matt57 isn't editing any articles which Elonka is also editing (though she's invited him to do so.) Which articles did you have in mind when you wrote that?

What Matt57 has been doing is vetting articles that Elonka created last year contra WP:COI - for example this glowing resumé for her father - for original research and other unsourced material, of which they are mostly comprised. That's not harassment.Proabivouac 05:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not it is harassment, it is, IMO, incivil of him to single out a particular user in such a way when he appears to have a history with Elonka. I also note numerous complaints about the zeal with which he's taking an axe to them. IMO, it would be wise of Matt57 to keep away from these articles in the future and leave fixing them to other, uninvolved editors. There are plenty of other bad articles on Wikipedia; in fact, there are many far worse than this. I've seen no credible allegation that these articles contain inaccurate statements; rather, that they contain possibly unverifiable statements and are unduly favorable to their subjects. I'd suggest that Wikipedia can survive a few puff pieces on Elonka's relatives quite well, that no harm will result by their remaining for a while in an unfixed state, and that Matt57 find something else to worry about. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 06:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

"…they contain possibly unverifiable statements and are unduly favorable to their subjects."

Unverifiable and unduly favorable are violations of policy which I should like to correct. Will I, too, be blocked if I do so?Proabivouac 06:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I supported her RfA, albeit with strong misgivings, per Danny's oppose, due to COI concerns. I became aware of this issue when MAtt57 was unjustly blocked after having been framed by sockpuppets of two banned users; see this thread.Proabivouac 06:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It would depend on how you did it. Why is it so important to you to fix THESE particular possible flaws in the encyclopedia above others? Why is it so important for Matt57 to do so right now? There are some issues that need immediate fixing; those covered by BLP, copyright violations, etc etc. Other issues like these can be handled slowly if necessary, and are best handled when there is contention by attempting to involve as many others in the decision as possible, so that the results are seen as fairly representative of consensus rather than a personal dislike or issue. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 08:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Fred Bauder once suggested that "aggressively checking the logs of editors with whom you are in a dispute may constitute harassment". Since other arbitrators discarded this principle as a "step in the wrong direction", I believe our definition of harrassment should be reexamined. As I infer from ArbCom's handling of the Abu badali case, Matt's actions should not be qualified as harrassment. He is simply enforcing our principles, just like Abu badali was. --Ghirla^-трёп- 09:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not: I'm involved in all kinds of things. This is just item that's been on my plate since it was brought to the community's (and my) attention on this noticeboard.

Although I will point out that there is a probable BLP violation on Elonka Dunin right now: "Dunin, however, investigated further, and got Dunn to admit that he faked the impersonation, as well as his own death, in a pathetic attempt to gain attention."[12][13] Hopefully, someone will fix that soon.

Re "It would depend on how you did it."

The following diffs illustrate the model I'd like to apply to the articles in question:[14][15] Granted, I might be accused of being partial toward the editor who did that; however I'm confident that he wouldn't have taken this action were it not mandated by policy.Proabivouac 09:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been unfortunately dragged into this dispute over the past few days, and I must say I fully endorse this block. Matt57's behavior towards Elonka in this dispute has been wholly unacceptable: digging through her contributions and stalking her across wikis and other websites, aggressively attacking contributions she made years ago, and constantly accusing her of shady wrongdoings, such as accusing her of conspiring with administrators against him in IRC (accusing third parties who offer an outside opinion as being part of her "cabal," which is how I got dragged into this), and even accusing her of harrassing and wikistalking him. Even after Elonka made a completely reasonable request for him to stop (complete with many diffs of example of the behavior I just mentioned), he only seems to have stepped it up further. Matt57 needs to know that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated whatsoever. --Krimpet 06:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Krimpet, you threatened me with a block on Commons following Elonka's threatening me on this wiki,[16] (since-deleted page) and conversing with you on IRC.[17] So if Matt57 has accused her of "conspiring with administrators against him in IRC," I'm afraid this strikes me as very credible.Proabivouac 06:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, your levels of incivility and serial assumption of bad faith has been on par with Matt57's in this dispute (and it appears that I have conflated your allegations with Matt57's; it was not he who made the accusations of her conspiring with administrators, it was you). I did answer a request for informal third-party clarification from Elonka on whether Image:Mohammed kaaba 1315 bew.jpg was acceptable on Commons, on the public channel #wikimedia-commons. It was after answering her question and ending the conversation with her that I noticed that this appeared to be part of a larger dispute, so I dug deeper and noticed it was spilling over from here on en.wiki, so I gave you a mildly stern warning that disrupting Commons as part of this dispute on en.wiki would not be tolerated. You then immediately accused Elonka of conspiring with me to threaten you with a block on Commons, though I could have just as easily discovered your disruptive behavior through Recent Changes or any other number of channels -- Commons is a much smaller community than en.wiki. And I notice after another uninvolved admin came across the dispute and concurred with what I said on your talk page, you accused him of exactly the same thing. Your pattern of assuming bad faith and instantly accusing other editors of wrongdoing is completely out-of-line. --Krimpet 06:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Krimpet, when I see a threat on this wiki, followed by an IRC conversation and a threat for a block on Commons, what am I supposed to think? I asked Elonka about this several times (deleted page, e-mail) and got a carefully-parsed non-answer each time, which does nothing to promote an atmosphere of transparency and trust.

On Wikipedia, it would certainly not be considered disruptive to remove a user-degraded image from a gallery of otherwise historic artworks; rather it would be considered disruptive to repeatedly add it, as Elonka has done. If things work differently on Commons, and original user art or defaced (literally) historical works, is welcome, contra stated policy, then I suppose it is - I've nominated it for deletion, and we'll see how that turns out. You made no attempt to discuss any matter of substance with me on my commons talk page, or on the talk pages of the relevant galleries, you made no attempt to answer any of my questions about Commons policies - I had to find them on my own - (talk about WP:BITE) - and your accusation of "disruption" remains completely unfounded. If anything, it is another excellent illustration of why discussions should take place on-wiki wherever possible, so that the matters can be examined openly, without being prejudiced by one-sided conversations to which affected editors are not privy and cannot respond.Proabivouac 07:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I remember one of Matt's comments at Elonka's RfA. It was quite excessive. There is no sign of acceptance of anything in Matt's response to Elonka's comment here [18].

Aminz, we've been talking about this for awhile now at User talk:Elonka/Work1 for awhile now. You can't see it, because it's been deleted. The bottom line here is that Elonka views bringing her COI articles in line with Wikipedia policies as harassment. You can say, well, it'd be better if someone other than Matt57 did it, and perhaps you're right…did you have anyone in particular in mind? Because these articles have been blatantly out of step with WP policy for over a year now, and no one's anything about it.Proabivouac 08:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt is unique in several aspects: There is only one user that writes the username of Itaqallah as "ItaqAllah" and it is Matt (can one ask why only and only Matt does that?). Matt insists in using people like Craig Winn in criticism of Islam article. Just to give you an idea of who this guy is, I'll provide some quotes from him: "Hitler simply followed Muhammad's path...Muslims, like Nazis and Communists, can’t be trusted...Muhammad, Islam’s lone prophet, qualifies as the most evil man to have ever lived...Prophet of Doom is the best documented and most comprehensive presentation of the Islamic scriptures ever written...Muhammad was the perfect Satanic prophet...As an expert on Islam and terror, I know that all good Muslims are terrorists and that most all terrorists are Muslims...Decadent egomaniacs like Muhammad are deeply troubled and tortured souls..Muhammad was a terrorist." --Aminz 07:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You appear to be canvassing, and to have forgotten hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220. Arrow740 09:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I am unsure, Aminz, how this has any bearing on the discussion at hand. Neil ム 08:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt needs to stay away articles associated with Elonka, because his behavior looks like stalking. Whether it is or not is irrelevant; it's what it looks like that matters. He has followed other editors around after disputes with them, which has been discussed on AN/I at least once, so this isn't an isolated incident. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 08:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I endorse the prevention of the posting of private material on this website and therefore and by extension the blocking of users, for what seems like a necessary and or appropriate length of time, that introduce such content; blocking is not punitive, but preventative, so I think that what has transpired between Kylu and Matt57 is probably to the benefit (and, possibly, the safeguarding, in relation to the consideration and insurance of every users right to keep certain private information/s unrevealed to the community) of those involved. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 08:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I, too, strongly support this principle and any actions taken to uphold it.Proabivouac 08:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

However, according to Matt57's unblock request, this information was already avaliable on User:Elonka/About…

if so, it seems that Matt57 has been blocked twice in a row for infractions he did not commit.Proabivouac 11:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

• That was hardly a "completely reasonable request to stop". Rather, something that starts with "formal notification" is probably misguided to begin with, and it appears to contain any number of leaps to conclusions. Something doesn't seem right here. >Radiant< 11:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
• I only glanced at this in the past, and assumed Elonka was mostly in the right. The behavior of her more aggressive supporters is making me think again, and making me wonder if I was foolish to support her RfA. Blurring out the face of Muhammad bothers me, but that is a question I would let Commons to deal with, as long as we do not use the bowdlerized picture in any of our articles. Tom Harrison ^Talk 12:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
• Kylu, again, this was no private information. Its all there at User:Elonka/About. This was a completely unfair block where you probably trusted Elonka whatever she told you in email or on IRC. The link I posted in my message to her is publicly available on her wiki's main page (that link is available publicly again, at User:Elonka/About). I had only suggested her to use her own wiki as a scratchpad. I'm tired of all these blocks and threats which are all about trying to stop me from Elonka's family articles, which contain huge amounts of poorly sourced or unsourced OR and which were originally made by her in violation of WP:COI. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Examined and unblocked

I have investigated this block and the surrounding edits and come to the conclusion that it is both unwarranted and punitive.

• Matt is told to go edit articles Elonka is not editing. However, that's precisely what he IS doing.
• With respect to editing articles on Elonka's relatives, judged by his contribs log he has actually been moving to other subject areas the past few days, and hasn't been editing much overall.
• Matt is told to not store deleted content in his userspace; however, many editors do so, and so does Elonka. The two were holding a conversation in her userspace, that she wanted deleted and he wanted retained. That's hardly inappropriate.
• Matt is told not to post links to people's private sites; however, the link to Elonka's private site is easily found at the top of the links section in the article on her. So he's hardly revealing anything shocking.
• Then we have the standard red herring about the IRC cabal, which should simply be ignored.

I suspect this block is partially based upon Elonka's so-called "formal notification to cease harassment". However, this notification contains numerous overstatements, proofs-by-assertion and misinterpretations. Of course, the title itself is begging the question. It reads as if somebody combed through Matt's contribs and picked out everything that could be construed as problematic.

• For instance, it says "multiple editors were telling [Matt] to back off" followed by six diffs; these diffs are of three editors, only one of which is telling him to back off.
• It refers an image deletion on commons, where allegedly Matt is "continuing with bad faith accusations", whereas his comment in question is "I've told this to Elonka many times but she fails to understand this." which is hardly extreme.
• And, it says that "on the few other subjects that you're working on, you're getting complaints there too" which (1) is irrelevant, and (2) two people complaining is hardly indicative of a problem editor (heck, anyone who does deletion closure gets more than that, daily).

What we have here is a content dispute. While it could be argued that Matt has a conflict of interest over this content, it is obvious that Elonka does, since the content is about her family (which have been subject of COI complaints in the past). I am aware that she hasn't been editing them recently, but she is vehemently opposing certain edits to them, albeit indirectly. Neither side has been particularly nice towards the other, and tempers are flaring all around. However, we do not solve content disputes by blocking one side. Hence, unblocked, and I suggest taking the articles to WP:RFC. >Radiant< 12:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe the above analysis is flawed and the decision goes against the grain of the discussion here, which is supportive of the block. I have no time to go into this further. But I ask Radiant to reconisder overruling a block made intelligently and in good faith. WjBscribe 13:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

As the phrase "conflict of interest," like "stalking" and "harassment" has been bandied about rather carelessly in this discussion, for example here, let's refer once again to the relevant guideline. I quote from WP:COI#What is a conflict of interest?:

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for advertising or self-promotion, or a vanity press…Adding material that appears to promote the interests or visibility of an article's author, his family members…places the author in a conflict of interest…If you do write an article on area in which you are personally involved, be sure to…cite reliable, third-party published sources

It should go without saying that nothing in this page has any bearing whatsoever on anything Matt57 has done.Proabivouac 13:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with the spirit of the block, the objectionable activity (call it stalking, harrassment, conflict of interest, whatever you will) seems to be ongoing and long-term, and I doubt a 24 hour block will solve problems. Hopefully all parties will heed Radiant's sensible advice. Some form of content arbitration needs to take place here. ~ Riana ⁂ 13:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

For all who supported my block and/or are telling me not to edit Elonka's articles: here's the basic situation. Tell me what to do, except not to edit articles on Elonka's family because anyone can edit any article:

• Elonka created and edited these articles last year in the first place, which amounts to multiple violations of WP:COI. She was aware of this policy but as far as I know, she was never warned for the violations.
• Today, these articles still exist, with no reliable sources and often, no proof of notability (Antoni Dunin, Stanley Dunin etc.)
• I decided to take up the task of looking at these articles, taking out unsourced OR, examining the quality of the sources.
• She asked me to stop editing her family articles (WP:OWN). What? Shouldn't she be the one who is told the same as per COI?

Am I doing anything wrong? If you tell me to stay away from Elonka for a while, I can do that, but dont tell me not to edit these articles. Even Jimbo has taken out unsourced or poorly sourced OR from Elonka related articles. I should be allowed to edit these articles. Whats wrong with that?

So, what is the reasonable resolution of this whole affair? I'm willing to take a break to let things cool down on both sides but I wont accept anyone telling not to edit these articles, because I have every right to do so as long as I'm following policies. Please also tell me now why Elonka was not warned for making these COI violations at that time and why she was allowed to freely promote her family members. Keeping your friendships and biases aside, please ask yourself: what is the right thing to do for these articles with OR and COI problems? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt57, you make the mistake of comparing Elonka's actions from a long time ago against the COI guideline as it exists today. Fortunately this is a wiki, so you can go look up an old copy of the COI guideline and see what it said at the time. Also take a look at an old version of WP:V.

These articles should be cleaned up, or possibly deleted, but not by somebody with an axe to grind. You shouldn't edit these at all because you obviously have such strong feelings about Elonka. Would it make sense to post these articles to WP:COIN to get more neutral editors involved? - Jehochman ^Talk 14:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the old versions of the policies yourself. The old copy of COI still admonished people about articles promoting their family members. When Elonka was aware of the policy, this is what it said at that time:

any material that presents the appearance of being intended to in any way promote the personal notoriety of the author, or one of the close family members or associates of the author.

WP:V was also pretty clear at that time: "Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources"

Ofcourse I would be glad to post this to WP:COIN. In the past, when I sought outside advice for this affair, I was accused of forum shopping. I dont have any axe to grind. I've been fair in every way. If I'm told not to edit these articles, I'll contact Jimbo and tell him that people are being allowed to promote their family members and those who come in to deal with these problems are threatened with blocks, and I'll remind him that he has himself taken out unsourced OR from Elonka related articles. Again, I'm willing to take a break, seek community input on my edits on these articles and invite people to edit and provide feedback but its wrong to tell me to stay away from these articles. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt57, the point is that many editors think what you are doing is stalking. Personally, I find it spooky. I had no interaction with either you or Elonka until I happened to vote in her RFA and left a message on her talk page. I have watched what you are doing and even commented on it to you in the early stages. There is nothing wrong with cleaning up the articles. There is something very wrong with your continuing obsession. Leave it to someone else and move on. -- DS1953 ^talk 14:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You like Jehochman and others have supported Elonka in her RfA. Please leave your personal biases aside. I've mentioned that I can take a break but its unfair to tell me not to edit these articles. I'm seriously going to think about contacting Jimbo about this. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe I have a personal bias to leave aside in this case. As I said, I had never any interaction with Elonka in my three years here before supporting her RFA. I have commented on many RFAs during my time here and don't believe that simply deciding that someone would not misuse the tools makes me biased in their favor. (In fact, there are some editors from whom I wish I could withdraw my previous support). What's more, I even happen to agree with you that the articles need to be trimmed of non-encyclopedic material and, in some cases perhaps, deleted entirely. What I don't believe is appropriate is for you to continue to act in a manner that many people consider to be stalking. Driving over the speed limit is neither legal nor safe but if you followed my neighbor around calling the police every time she went 32 mph in a 30 mph zone, I would say you have a problem that is worse than her exceeding the speed limit. -- DS1953 ^talk 15:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

DS1953, per the now-banned anti-Merkey SPAs, you are absolutely correct about which would be worse. However, Matt57 isn't following her around, not even to a single article. The "stalking" consisted of Matt57 finding a user subpage she'd created to harass him.Proabivouac 15:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

DS, I didnt follow Elonka anywhere. She made that whole page on me, which I happened to see using her contribs (seeing someone's contribs is not stalking, per WP:STALK) and I responded to that page on its discussion tab. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 15:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

How about as a compromise both Matt57 and Elonka agree not to edit these articles for a while? And maybe someone could list the articles we are talking about. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Elonka doesn't edit these articles directly; she just threatens those who do. And her threats come true.Proabivouac 14:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, she doesn't edit her family's articles anymore. Most of them can be found here (this is public information, people, lest I be blocked again for posting this 'dangerous' link: User:Elonka/Genealogy. The ones that are being discussed and evaluated nowdays are Antoni Dunin and Stanley Dunin. They're full of unsourced OR that Elonka put in last year. The talk pages of these articles prove that there are almost no non-trivial reliable sources. And yes I can take a break from these articles so we can let things cool down everywhere, but if I'm told by others not to edit these articles at all, I will take that seriously. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt57 can raise an article RFC, a third opinion, or a notice at the COI noticeboard (or all three). This should attract outside editors to the articles without the drama that comes from Matt and Elonka having previous negative interactions. If other experienced editors agree with Matt's concerns, Elonka would have no leg to stand on. Thatcher131 14:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the nuetral input. This is what I'll do, after taking a break and letting things calm down a bit. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - this would be exactly the right thing to do. Yes, the articles need to be fixed - but your doing it directly is not going to help, since there is the appearance (true or not) that you are taking an axe to them because of previous disputes between you and Elonka. Asking others to fix them is the right approach. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I was unable to post more about this matter earlier as I had to catch a train. I am very disappointed this block was overturned. It seems to me that Raidant substituted his own judgment for that of the blocking admin against the consensus here. Instead of raising his analysis in this thread so it could be discussed further and his points responded to, he went ahead and unblocked because he thought that was the right thing to do, not because there was a consensus to unblock. These issues with Matt's conduct are longstanding and his recent attentions towards Elonka are only a recent manifestation. Whilst I agree that there are OR problems with some of those articles, his approaching of blanking most of the content (rather than just that which is unsourced) has been criticised both by myself and Shell Kinney (who has bene doing great work improving those articles). For example Matt seems unable to accept that inline citation is not required by policy, that sources do not have to be in english and that print references are as good (if not better) than online ones. His conduct - goading Elonka on her talkpage when she has understandably decided not to edit those article's further due to WP:COI concerns seems to be trying to place her in a catch 22 situation. Damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. His approach to the matter has been hostile and combative rather than collegial. Myself and Durova have both warned him that his content has crossed the line into harassment. Other admins (including critics of Elonka) have concurred. Matt57's aggressive approach is not limited to Elonka - SlimVirgin also appears to have recieved very unwelcome attention following a disagreement between them. I also note that in discussion in general he is quick to disruption to make points and seem to regard compromise and bowing to consensus as weakness. This attitude is fundementally at odds with what this project is about. WjBscribe 17:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

• Response. >Radiant< 09:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like a request for comment might be in order. Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

WJ, you were one of the nominator's in Elonka's last RfA so you're not a nuetral party here. I'm just being bullied to stay away from Elonka's family articles, this is what its all about. As for SlimVirgin, she has had conflicts with a lot of people, not just me. If blanking the content was wrong, was Jimbo wrong too? About me opposing consensus, consensus right here on this section has been that Elonka's articles have serious problems and thats what I've said too. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 17:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt57, there may be problems with these articles, but you are not the one to fix them. I'm glad you stated (above) that you wouldn't be attempting to do so yourself in future, but would instead bring up any problems in forums where other editors might help out. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about this situation, but from reading this ANI thread I don't think Matt57 should have been blocked. Kylu's elliptically-worded post that opened this thread seems to be mostly about the (attempted) revelation of private information, and as far as I can see Matt hasn't revealed anything that wasn't already publicly available. If Matt is stalking or harassing Elonka, it might be beneficial to set out the evidence in a user conduct RfC; the community can then evaluate whether blocking or other remedies are necessary.

By the way, Antoni Dunin is now at AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Antoni Dunin (2nd nomination). --Akhilleus (talk) 18:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of which, on WP:COIN#Antoni_Dunin, Matt57 stated he wouldn't be involved in the AfD for now, yet has involved himself in the debate there anyway. In the meantime, interested parties may wish to review my response to the unblocking and opinion of the situation if you'd like. Leave responses here please. ~Kylu (u|t) 20:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Kylu, your allegation on which my block was based on was that I leaked out sensitive information on Elonka and that turned out to be false. It was all public information. Next time, please investigate matters before blocking someone and dont listen to people on IRC (you admitted IRC was involved), because if someone says something about me, it might be a complete lie or a misrepresentation and I cannot be there to correct the facts. I dont know why Elonka frequents IRC so much and why she doesnt contact ANI here when she has a problem. Is that because she knows she has an advantage over the person she wants to get prosecuted since they cant see whats being said? The IRC logs should be available by the way, because I want to know what she has been saying about me. By the way, I took out my vote as a suggestion from THF. Its amazing Elonka walks free while I get blocked and harrassed and told to stay away from her articles, in which she has violated COI herself. Thats because she has all these admin friends whom she contacts on IRC to get them to stop others from doing anything to her family articles. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

In case it wasn't clear above, Kylu, I am wholly in support of your block, which I think was thoroughly deserved. IMO, Matt57 has a propensity to do things on purpose to irritate those he's had disagreements with (i.e. WP:POINT) and has a major problem with being told he shouldn't do something. There's a lot of editors on Wikipedia who can make the articles on Elonka's relatives be NPOV, or argue for their deletion if they're not ever going to be good encyclopedia articles. Matt57 should be nowhere among them. It's not unreasonable to ask people to avoid conflict and avoid doing things on purpose to annoy others, even if the conduct is within the normally acceptable sphere of edits. Arbcom has done so in the past and will do so in future (frequently). Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

There's only one thing to discuss on this whole affair: whether the sources are enough or not. If they are, please take part at the article's discussion page. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt: IRC RC Bot and Wikipedia IRCD[19]. As I stated , IRC is my preferred method of seeing recentchanges. The block wasn't based on that one incident of personal information (which you didn't post as article-related, and if you're following RS as strictly as you say, shouldn't even be a site to pique your curiosity) but because of the pattern of harassment. Want to know WHO I was listening to on IRC when I first started considering the situation? Visit irc.wikimedia.org, channel #en.wikipedia. RC's a bot. It spits out a list of all the changes on Wikipedia, rather like having a realtime, scrolling special:recentchanges. The channel is, for the most part, full of bots. I have not once seen RC (or any of the other bots) squeak a word, other than RC spitting out its continuous feed. On that server, in fact, Sending messages to channels is not allowed, you can watch but you can't touch. (from the irc.wikimedia.org welcome message)

Did anyone else on regular IRC mention the situation? Sure did, but that was after I'd already made up my mind and started acting upon it. Please don't presume to know what my thoughts and motivations were. I'd like to point out that earlier, in "regular" irc, I suggested to a different admin to not make blocking decisions based on advice gained on IRC. You have to be responsible for your own decisions, and I not only stand by my block, I'm dismayed that you've decided to see Radiant's unblock as clearance to continue your actions. ~Kylu (u|t) 21:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

• Response. >Radiant< 09:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Kylu, in the post which began this thread, giving the reason for your block, you wrote, "Going so far as to dig through someone's life and prying out things the other person is trying to keep from public view, when they're quite frankly none of any of our business, however, is quite something else." Did Matt57 do that?Proabivouac 01:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

(Copied from Radiant's talk page) Radiant, I agree with WJBscribe that Matt needed to sit out this block. He has been practically stalking Elonka because she tried to mediate between him and some Muslim editors during a content dispute, and he didn't like the suggestion she came up with. This left him with the sense that she is too pro-Muslim (when in fact she was just trying to find a compromise). He tried to do the same to me a while back after a dispute at Islamophobia, after which he also decided I was pro-Muslim. I forget the exact details, but he later turned up at a couple of articles I edit a lot and tried to cause a problem. He also implied that I was creating sockpuppets that appeared to be him in order to discredit him. I saw on AN/I that there were allegations of harassment from other editors too following content disputes, so this is a pattern. What has made it worse in Elonka's case is that the articles he has stalked her to are about her family, and so there are privacy issues. The behavior has been a bit creepy, to be honest, and Kylu was right to block, in my view. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 05:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• Response. >Radiant< 09:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC

I, for one, completely agree with what Radiant said and think the block was uncalled for. Matt editing the Dunin articles is not stalking. Following Elonka on pages she edits, etc, is stalking. Matt is completely within his right to edit these articles, and no one has a right to stop him from doing so. He doesn't need to be bothering Elonka with what he's doing, but that is all. If Matt isn't allowed to finish cleaning these articles up, I'll volunteer myself to do so. -- Ned Scott 05:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Since you have clear issues with Elonka as well, you're probably not a good party for this either. Shell ^babelfish 19:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I generally agree with Radiant's contention that "we do not solve content disputes by blocking one side". Any attempts to issue blocks instead of pursuing standard dispute resolution procedures are ill-advised and reflect poorly on those who demand their opponents to be blocked from editing, especially by advocating, manipulating, and politicking behind the scenes. I guess we move to arbitration next. --Ghirla^-трёп- 09:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I have read the entire section. At this point, it looks to me like the block was wrong. Assuming Matt57 is not blocked currently (I am not an Admin and I cannot see how to find out), I would say that the incident is closed and there is no need for arbitration. Matt57 should be bold and try to improve the relevant articles. If Elonka feel an article is going in the wrong direction, she can file an RFC on the article. Matt57 has encouraged others to comment on Talk pages. This seems to me to show an acceptance of the value of consensus. Indeed, Matt57 seems quite reasonable. Whatever has happened in the past, I think she should assume good faith and that he will abide by policy.

Speaking in general, Admins should not, I believe, be trigger-happy with the block button. The wiki will not collapse if they take the time needed to identify diffs showing clearly block-worthy behaviour. ANI should not be a rubber stamp. The fact that no replies to Radiant provided diffs proving a vital need to block is interesting. Finally, we do not solve content disputes by blocking one side - unless that side has been shown to be an unreasonable person. Eiler7 20:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Johntex's dishonesty (BSA)

I’d like to address actions by Johntex. While they happened a while ago, I stopped contributing soon before, and so didn’t find out about them until later. I made an edit and included two links in support of my claims. Johntex then claimed that I hadn’t included any cites, and I pointed out the two links that I had included. He then denied that I had included those links. I repeatedly and in excruciating detail explained where to find them, yet he continued with his claim. I will put a screenshot of the two links on Johntex’s Talk page.

When I pointed out that he was lying, he had the gall to declare that I was being uncivil by commenting on his dishonesty. Furthermore, this followed an attempt on my part to initiate mediation proceeding. Rather than first bring these issues up in that arena, or otherwise attempting to resolve his alleged issues with me, he simply moved to silence me by presenting a one-sided description of the situation on this page. He filed a complaint based on a dishonest presentation, even going to far as to accuse me of lying in insisting that he was lying. To top it off, he never gave me any notice of the complaint, and gave the complaint a nondescriptive title that included neither my name nor any reference to the article in which the dispute arose. It was only through wading through pages and pages of the history page that I was able to find it, and even then only because I recognized Johntex’s name.

In my opinion, this sort of behavior is simply unacceptable, and if he isn’t banned from editing, he should at the very least be stripped of his administrative authority. No one with such a contempt for the truth should be in a position of authority in a site which has the truth as its primary mission.Heqwm 19:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You have yet to offer any proof of misconduct on Johntex's part. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Verifiability trumps truth. On that note, some diffs provided here might be helpful. --Onorem♠Dil 19:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

John has not done anything recently that would warrant any sort of block or strip admin privileges. In the dispute you are mentioning, it seems he was very civil and stated his side of the story. Also, its rather redundant to add further comment on a mediation case that was closed in November 2006. As mentioned above, if you can provide recent diffs which illustrate incivility, lying, or unacceptable behavior then that would warrant comment or action. Diffs from ages ago are really ancient history.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 19:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply by Johntex:

1. Heqwm is referring to events that occurred in October 2006. That was many moons and many edits ago.
2. However, I described the situation fully in my response to the mediation cabal case openned by Heqwm. I provided plenty of diffs that I believe make clear that Heqwm was the party violating WP:CIVIL.
3. None of the above is a surprise to Heqwm. He replied to my posting at the mediation cabal case, so he is being dishonest or disingenuous to now claim that he was unaware of my comments.
4. Heqwm did abandon the mediation cabal case although he did continue to make a couple of edits to the related article and talk page[20] [21] before he left Wikipedia.
5. For some reason, he is starting this conversation up again in multiple places (here and at the cabal case). His "notification" to me was placed on my User page, not my Talk page, so I found it only by accident. I assume this was a simple mistake by Heqwm. Johntex\^talk 21:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
6. However, he continues to violate WP:CIVIL in accusing me of lying with no evidence whatsoever.
7. I also believe that he is now, just as he was then, violating Wikipedia is not a battleground, which states "Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals. Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation.. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement." His dredging this up is nothing short of disruption and harassment.
8. I recommended that he be strongly cautioned against disruptive behavior and/or receive a short block so that his disruption is checked and so that he will understand this is not the right way to go about rejoining the project.

Thank you, Johntex\^talk 21:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

OhNoitsJamie: “You have yet to offer any proof of misconduct on Johntex's part.“

I prepared a screenshot, only to discover that wikipedia doesn’t allow bmps to be uploaded. So I settled for posting the link and the relevant quote. Here’s the link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boy_Scouts_of_America&diff=prev&oldid=79701488

Persian Poet Gal: “In the dispute you are mentioning, it seems he was very civil and stated his side of the story.”

Some comments he made: “If you don't modify your behavior, there will be no alternative to viewing your behavior as vandalism.”

“My statement was correct and I expect you will want to apologize for saying I lied.”

Then on top of that, he had me suspended based on lies.

“Diffs from ages ago are really ancient history”

Ten months is ancient history?

Johntex says: “However, I described the situation fully in my response to the mediation cabal case openned by Heqwm.”

Congratulations, you just eliminated your statute of limitations excuse, because now you’re posting new lies. I included the links that you said were not there. You did not acknowledge that. Therefore, you did not describe the situation fully.

“None of the above is a surprise to Heqwm. He replied to my posting at the mediation cabal case, so he is being dishonest or disingenuous to now claim that he was unaware of my comments.”

Except that you made no mention of the fact that you were seeking action against me on the mediation page, so you are the one being dishonest. You NEVER, as far as I know, made ANY effort to inform me of your actions with regard to suspending me.

“Heqwm did abandon the mediation cabal case although he did continue to make a couple of edits to the related article and talk page”

As far as I can see, my last edit last year was 16:23, 26 October 2006. Until 23:01, 26 October 2006, there was no real progress on the mediation case (nor had there been for about two weeks). So your implication that I ignored the mediation case in favor of continuing to edit is yet another dishonesty from you. There was nothing for me to ignore until AFTER my edit.

“For some reason, he is starting this conversation up again in multiple places (here and at the cabal case).”

While I made mention of dishonesty in general on the cabal page, I did not make any mention of this specific case.

“However, he continues to violate WP:CIVIL in accusing me of lying with no evidence whatsoever.”

That I have no evidence is yet another lie. I’m not going to let you hide behind the skirt of civility. Bringing to light your blatant dishonesty is more important than sparing your widdle feelings.

“I also believe that he is now, just as he was then, violating Wikipedia is not a battleground, which states "Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals. Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation.. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement." His dredging this up is nothing short of disruption and harassment.”

Wow, you sure are a hypocrite. I was willing to let it go until you went whining to this page with your lies. You’re the one who created this battle.

“I recommended that he be strongly cautioned against disruptive behavior and/or receive a short block so that his disruption is checked and so that he will understand this is not the right way to go about rejoining the project.”

What part of “Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement" do you not understand? I’m not going to buckle under your bullying. You don’t get to block people just because they dare point out your dishonesty.

You really show your arrogance here: anyone who has a problem with should be blocked.Heqwm 16:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous and childish AN/I thread. The argument happened ten months ago. You left wikipedia for months, after the incident and Mediation. Now you've come back, and your first major act hee is to open this thread, demanding we re-do the entire process now that you're here to more fully participate? Stop wasting our time, and go help build the project, or go back to doing whatever you did while you were gone from Wikipedia. Your immature 'gotcha' style comments above, such as "Congratulations, you just eliminated your statute of limitations excuse, because now you’re posting new lies. " and "I was willing to let it go until you went whining to this page with your lies. You’re the one who created this battle." Are trolling posts. You're trying to get a reaction out of him. Him defending himself doesn't require you to accuse him of lying without proof you've yet to provide, and accusing HIM of starting this again, when it's clear he let this go 10 months ago, and when YOU opened this AN/I thread, is absurd.

Admins, I'd support any Admin giving Heqwm an indef block as a SPA trolling account with a grudge. ThuranX 13:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"demanding we re-do the entire process" what does that mean? You didn't DO the process, so there is nothing to RE-DO. I'm helping build the project by trying get rid of someone who obviously has no concern for the ideals of wikipedia. Your use of the term "gotcha" is absurd. When I made edits that Johntex didn't like, instead of dealing with them on the talk page of the article, he simply had me suspended. There is nothing "gotcha" about pointing out that clearly Johntex is the one violating the "not a battleground" rule. Your use of the word "trolling" is in flagrant violating of the AGF rule. There is absolutely no evidence that my intent is anything but what I have said it is: to get Johntex stripped of admin powers, if not banned. There are three main elements to my charge: I included the links, Johntex said that I didn't, and Johntex got me suspended based in part on the lie that I lied about him. I have proven the first. If you're going to dispute the others, then go ahead and ask for proof, and I'll give it to you. Showing up here and criticizing me for failing to provide proof that neither you nor anyone else has asked for is completely unconstructive unless your sole goal is to simply piss me off. I never claimed that he started this again. Your accusation of SPA trolling is yet another absurdity. Are you seriously suggesting that I created this account solely in the expectation that Johntex would have a disagreement, he would lie about me, and I would then lodge a complaint against him?Heqwm 20:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You chose to leave the process the first time. You walked away, and YOU dropped the ball. Wikipedia isn't about to give you a do-over on it. Since then, Johntex has continued to improve things here, and you've been gone. I can see NO good reason to dredge up an old case that you didn't feel was important enough to finish. As Johntex demonstrated ,you were still editing on wikipedia, and could have finished the process, but instead opted not to. You can't undo that choice now and demand we all jump to your orders. This is Over. stop pushing for it, or I'll file a complaint of obvious disruption and harrassment of Johntex. ThuranX 05:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Your fishing for some sort of banning or "de-sysopping" based on something that happened months ago. Sorry, but this isn't the forum for this, and I suspect that at the end of the day this is just going to be ignored.--Isotope23 ^talk 20:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"Your fishing for some sort of banning or "de-sysopping" based on something that happened months ago." Any plans to finish that sentence? "Sorry, but this isn't the forum for this" Unless someone informs me of a better place to put it, I'm going to keep it here.Heqwm 00:21, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

There's NO proper place for this, drop it, move on. ThuranX 05:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Help requested versus "George Reeves person/BoxingWear"

An old "friend" of ours, the George Reeves Person (admins, please read the deleted history of this page to get the back story) is active again, harassing several users. I could use a bit of help. More specifically, those he targets could use the help, since most of the people he collides with are new users he abuses when they correct his edits on articles relating to his various interests: boxing, basketball, Balkan and middle eastern politics. A lot of good people can be driven off by this person. You can recognize him by his non-native English, use of all lower-case and all upper-case, run-on sentences and comma splices, and completely uninhibited incivility and abuse. He has not been an actual vandal for a while—except for when he goes berserk and starts leaving threats on people's user pages—but his edits are rarely useful. They usually get reverted by other editors, which is when he becomes abusive.

Caution: anyone who becomes involved in this will become a target for harassment. You will receive hateful and threatening e-mails signed by "different" people, and if you edit under your real name, you are likely to receive harassing telephone calls as well. This person, who is one of our longest-term and most poisonously hateful troublemakers, will attempt to find out your real identity, and will post about you on the various anti-Wikipedia attack sites.

His past aliases include User:BoxingWear, User:Projects, User:Vesa, User:Gildyshow, and others. He has asked to be called "Goran", "George", "Gordon", and his hate-mails to me are signed "Vanessa". When asked to moderate his behavior, he responds with violent abuse, often pretending to be multiple people. He usually edits from the ranges 66.99.0.0/22 and 64.107.0.0/22 (Chicago Public Library), although he has used other IPs which trace to the Chicago area. All the anons on Severo's talk page since August 1 are him. When range-blocked, he uses open proxies. When confronted, he makes threats such as this one (note the sneaky change to another user’s comment: this is a characteristic of his editing style). Also this from today is special. Thank you for any assistance, Antandrus (talk) 20:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I issued a 3 hour block similar to the one you instated with the IP earlier. Edit: I was about to protect the talk page from editing but Anetode simply deleted. I'll keep a watch on those pages as well throughout the day.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 20:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I've also semi-protected AN/I, there's no need to tolerate this kind of abuse. ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 20:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both; much appreciated. The more people aware of this one, the better. By the way, he will attempt to remove this thread from the archive once it expires from this page (for example notice the exceedingly persistent pest here) Antandrus (talk) 21:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Have you received the nasty email quoting this post yet? Natalie 22:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hm, no, I haven't (nor did I get the e-mail he said he sent to me yesterday, inviting me to meet him at some parking lot or other in Chicago) but then I put "Vanessa" in my killfile a few months ago. I'll look in my deleted messages. Did you get one? I know you have gotten them from him before. Antandrus (talk) 23:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I tend to get emails from him (also signed "Vanessa") referencing whatever post I've made that mentioned his name. He also sent a couple of emails to my college - best quote: "WE R BUILDING WEBSITE TO LET ALL KNOW U R NEONAZIS WHO HARBNR EM". I have some of the archives mentioned below on my watchlist, but I'll add the others, at least. Perhaps we should indefinitely semi protect them, though, since there really isn't any reason for anyone to need to edit the archives. Natalie 06:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Now and forever, to all to whom this may concern, i am boxingwear only and noboxy else and the above replies and posts are

totally shameful and i reject them and you should too. More evidence here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive97&diff=151679297&oldid=151000210#Reply_to_the_Apology_in_Advance_Posts... Antandrus even reverted that, you cant even have a final word here, only one sided opinion counts.

GRP deleting threads about himself from the archives

There's another problem now. I've caught him numerous times deleting all the threads about himself from the archives; I was wondering why Google was finding so little, when I know he has been discussed again and again. See [22], [23], and [24] for several examples. He usually uses open proxies for this particular bit of sneaking. I don't know how many more there are like this, or if there is an easy way to find them. Thanks to Luna Santin for catching the last of these three back in May. Antandrus (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is troubling (and highly inappropriate of GRP). Perhaps we should have the devs implement some kind of auto-protection for archive pages, to prevent people from fabricating history. >Radiant< 11:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There's no need generally to edit Archived threads; the only ones who should are probably the OTRS and OFFICE folks. As such, having a couple Admins review the edit histories of each archive to ensure no tampering, and then full protect them would be good. Unless I'm missing something? ThuranX 17:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've started going through all the archives, looking for damage caused by GRP, and I've found a bunch. Here's one I did not revert since it may be legitimately seen as a privacy violation (opinions anyone?) Changing the topic slightly, is it a privacy violation if an anon asks to be called by a certain name on Wikipedia, and we then call him that name (that's where I got Goran, George, Gordon)? Is it a privacy violation if someone e-mails one of us repeatedly, signing his rants with a certain name, which we then post here? Is it a privacy violation if he builds an attack site about us, signing it with a name (that's where I first learned the one in the diff above), and then we post the name here? I am a bit curious to know this stuff. Thanks all, Antandrus (talk) 18:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from banned editor redacted per WP:DENY>

• ...Oh and IP blocked as the above individual is banned from what I understand. They can contact ARBCOM if they want to contest their block.--Isotope23 ^talk 19:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from banned editor redacted per WP:DENY>

Actually, I've never encountered User:Antandrus to the best of my recollection... so no, I don't "help" him. You are banned. You have no inherent right to free speech here. You are not allowed to edit or respond here. Continued posts by you will be removed without reply per WP:DENY. If you want to contest your ban, email a member of WP:ARBCOM.--Isotope23 ^talk 20:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I found some more archive tampering in the history of Archive 190. The best way to detect these malicious archive tampering is to use the following Google search of his username. I modified the domain parameter to pick up results only from Wikipedia. Just open those pages and briefly take a glimpse at the history. Edit: I just noticed the "search" link in the archive box, so that also is another alternative method that may help. Here's the search with all the parameters filled in...so all you have to do is click.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 03:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Eyrian and Wikipedia in culture

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The page is protected and this thread has veered off topic. The original problem is resolved; please open a user RFC if you have additional concerns you want to discuss about this editor.--Isotope23 ^talk 16:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

I have to get this out of my system. While primarely a content dispute, I have major trouble over how User:Eyrian is conducting in this matter. The whole discussion can be seen here. Basically, Eyrian removed half the page [25][26] and I reverted him twice [27][28], and he reverted me twice [29][30]. Now, I am more then willing to discuss any changes to the page, but I cannot make him see the error of his ways. I believe he should have engaged in discussion after he was first reverted. Instead, he kept reverting, and probably would do it again. Not willing to risk 3RR myself, I stopped.

Now, as he is the only one wanting to remove the content, I told him repeatedly he needs consensus before making the change. But he doesn't seem to grasp that concept. And to top it of; he is an admin. Like I said, want to discuss the changes, but I'm putting process before content here; it has become a matter of principal for me. So I would like some 'peer review' on his behaviour here. — Edokter • Talk • 14:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, looks to me like Eyrian (talk · contribs) is removing some rather pointless, non-notable triva from an article that is almost fully comprised of pointless trivia on the proliferation of the term "Wikipedia" and how it has perhaps progressed beyond a simple neologism. Personally I don't think removing the most trivial of information from an already overwrought article is something that requires any admin attention.--Isotope23 ^talk 15:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

They are complaining about how the user went about the issue, not the issue. They themselves state they would probably have agreed. If you read the discussion they are complaining that Eyrian removed the content "per talk" then posted the talk discussion hours later. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If you read the actual discussion, I posted to talk days before. --Eyrian 15:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I was reiterating the debate, not placing blame. Sorry if that was misunderstood. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Eyrian posted on 20-AUG, then removed the sections days later. Look, I'm not condoning the edit warring that both sides carried out, but there isn't really anything that required admin intervention here, though apparently someone feels otherwise.--Isotope23 ^talk 15:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

That was my mistake. It's not relevant. — Edokter • Talk • 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Reverted back to before the war began, and protected the article for a few days so this can be resolved on the talk page. I suggest Eyrian starts by listing the sections he is unahppy with, one by one, and it can be discussed whether they ought or ought not to be in the piece. Neil ム 15:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Er... are we not supposed to protect pages in whatever state they are in (barring obvious vandalism or WP:BLP issues) rather than just picking our own preferred wrong version to protect?--Isotope23 ^talk 15:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, I haven't even looked at the content. I just put it back to before the edit war, which I tend to do. No problem with another admin changing it (probably not Eyrian, as he's involved in the dispute). Neil ム 15:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) I wasn't looking for protection, and it seems a bit overkill. The 'edit-war' is days old. All I wanted was an opinion on Eyrian's actions. — Edokter • Talk • 15:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The comment is: "by all means be bold, but if someone reverts your edit, that's a pretty good sign your change isn't wholly agreeable for everyone. If that's the case, discuss. Don't edit war over it, or someone will editprotect the page and make you discuss it." Neil ム 18:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Some days I think WP:BRD would be better as a guideline than an essay, at least in non-vandalism situations.--Isotope23 ^talk 19:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. — Edokter • Talk • 20:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This seems consistant with Eyrians way of doing things - I've clashed with him, and found him rude, autocratic and not a big fan of seeking consensus. He's also been leading a one person effort to get the word "inconsequential" into the WP:NOT section on Trivia, which coincidentally happens to be his favorite edit summary description of material he's working on. I'm not sure anything he's up to is technically "wrong" from a wiki point of view, but I do find him very annoying. Artw 16:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I've just recently been exposed to Eyrian's war on "pop culture" pages, so have no previous experience or preconceptions about him. He deletes whole sections from articles, and then ignores WP:BRD if someone tries to restore them. Consensus seems to not be a favored concept. Personally, I think it's better to have content that might be in need of some work than to delete the existing work and have nothing left to start from, as per guidance. Basically, he ignores the parts of WP:TRIVIA he disagrees with (notable the comment "do not simply remove such sections" in the guidance section and WP:TRIVIA#Not all lists are trivia sections, in favor of his POV on trivia, as expressed in Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles. Editing WP:TRIVIA to fit his definition of it seems disingenuous at best, also. Dstumme 20:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

He just blanked a bunch of messages here. if he does that again i;m going to ask for cooldown. Artw 15:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Eyrian vs. Dungeons & Dragons

Before I forget, Eyrian nominated a truckload of Dungeons & Dragons monsters for deletion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dungeons & Dragons creatures) under WP:NOTE, and given the warning he has on his talkpage in regards to his treatment of Cheshire Cat in popular culture, I'm afraid that he might do the same to the 10-15 articles he nominated at once. When I brought it up on the AfD, he said that he'd given his reasons for the Cheshire Cat incident, but didn't say anything about avoiding the use of the same if the Dungeons & Dragons articles are kept. I also brought up an edit to WP:NOT made during an AfD he nominated; I redacted that point upon his request. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v Kacheek!)} 07:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit war/warring at Carlossuarez46

• Cowboycaleb1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Bobo54 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There's been a constant edit war between a group of users (partially involving me) at this userpage, so I thought it'd be best to bring it here. It started when Cowboycaleb1 posted a question at the bottom of his userpage [31]. I reverted it, with the edit description being: "Undid revision 152976001 by Cowboycaleb1 (talk) - use the talkpage to ask questions" [32]. Cowboycaleb1 seemingly ignored me, and reverted my edit, with the edit description "asking a question. about a page deletion"[33]. Miskwito reverted his edit, stating "Again, ask questions on the user's TALK PAGE, not here"[34]. Bobo54 comes in, and reverts Miskwito's edit, bringing back in Caleb's question, with the edit description "user does not have a talk page"[35]. Clearly this is wrong as Carlossuarez does have a talkpage - after all Bobo54 was editing it. The Fifth Horseman reverts it, stating "Then create it. What's the problem with that?"[36]. Cowboycaleb1 comes back with the edit description "trying to ask a question AGAIN.", still not knowing that a talkpage is in existance.[37] I then reverted it,[38] before Bobo54 reverted it saying "leave the guy alone and let User:Carlossuarez46 answer his question"[39]. I have just yet again reverted it. Is there any chance Bob54 is a sock of Cowboycaleb1? Also, Cowboycaleb1 has been causing enough hassle, and sent me a harrasing e-mail, which I do not which to reveal. Me and Rlevse have been discussing the e-mail. Caleb recently also violated WP:3RR, and removed a perfectly good source from Ashley Massaro's paage.[40]. Should this user get a block for his actions? Davnel03 15:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Infact, look at Bobo54's contributions. I think it's pretty obvious he's a sock of Cowboycaleb1. Block needed. Davnel03 16:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked the sock and am warning user. Please do try to communicate with the user in question first. Using edit summaries to communicate is not an efficient method. Sasquatch t|c 16:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I tried to, but he simply removed mine (and several other) messages, and decided to leave on that weren't doing any harm (see here) Davnel03 16:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on the user but I still don't see any discussion on this specific issue... WP:ANI is more of a last resort in dispute resolution when other communications attempts fail... Sasquatch t|c 19:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the first I've seen of this, but User:Cowboycaleb1 did it again since your final warning [41]. I don't know whether it's ok or not for me to block him, but someone should - I'd rather not have to protect my own user page. Carlossuarez46 19:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked 24 hours. Sasquatch's comments were polite and crystal clear on using talkpages so I can't see this as anything other than deliberate disruption on Cowboycaleb1's part. Incidentally it appears he is autoblocked as well; I'd be interested to know how that went down.--Isotope23 ^talk 19:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove's editing of Requests for Comment

IT IS WELL UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS IS A TOUGH SUBJECT, BUT SOMETHING MUST BE DONE! IT IS IN THE INTEREST OF WIKIPEDIA, THEREFORE, THAT A TOUGH ADMINISTRATOR TAKES IT UPON HIMSELF TO READ CAREFULLY AND FINALLY ENDS THIS MATTER. WHAT THIS USER IS DOING IS AGAINST THE RULES. THE RELATIVE OBSCURITY OF THE ARTICLES IN QUESTION SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY WEIGHT IN THE MATTER. DIREKTOR 17:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The previously reported user, Giovanni Giove (see the "Incessant unsourced reverting and editing on Dalmatia-related articles" section), has in adition to his previous behaviour, now started editing other users' comments in the 2 Requests for Comment on the articles Republic of Ragusa and Zadar. He is fully aware (and has been warned) that this is not allowed, but for some reason (in spite of being advised to the contrary) he thinks that because he posted these RfCs he has the right to edit them in his favour. I am reporting him on Isotope23 advice me and I have done so in spite of my scepticism that he can at all be stopped. He has been reported twice and blocked before, to little or no ultimate effect. I hope that there is a way out of this, DIREKTOR 21:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove had removed this comment I've inserted. [42] on 23rd Aug. Kubura 13:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add that this user has a pattern of excessively abusive and disruptive edits, and has a sockpuppeteering history. On several occasions, he went "off" his battlefronts across Dalmatian-related articles and actually followed his "wiki-enemies" rv in sight there edits elsewhere. I would also like to note that I tried to be a neutral mediator between this user and several wikipedians from Croatia in a dispute with which I had no connection whatsoever and he responded in a very uncivil manner, threatening me to leave him, despite I calmly asked him to open discussions at the talk page and only cited Wikipedia's policies to him. --PaxEquilibrium 23:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

You know if you want admins to look at this you are going to have to back up accusations with actual links. |It is not reasonable to expect admins to have to go searching. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 23:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

There is really no need to search: just check out the talkpages of these artcles, he's ALL over them: Republic of Ragusa, Zadar and Fourth Crusade. DIREKTOR 23:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I took a brief look at this dispute. One glance at the edit summaries on Talk:Republic of Ragusa will show that there's a lot of emotion in play here. And the article's not showing up on the History RfC page for some reason. Any Admin who decides to don kevlar & wade into this firefight probably should first protect the article page on the wrong version, then try to get the folks involved to play nice with each other. -- llywrch 00:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Beleve me, there is no playing nice with Giove, we've all been there. The man's just returned from vacation, or was unblocked, or something. Before that, all was quiet, but for the last couple of days the man's incessantly venting his frustration and refuses to be stopped by anything. Important: If anyone intends to total-block these articles, make sure that the version is "impartially disagreeable" to both sides. This will not be simple (in fact it is nearly impossible), however, otherwise, i promise you, the discussion will probably stop completely by the "winning" side, I've seen this many times. This is one of the core problems here, so I really suggest a different approach. DIREKTOR 01:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

One of my first experiences with Giovanni Giove was this: [43],[44], precisely he accused me of being a sockpuppet of some other banned user with no any reason and without any explenation where his suspicions came from! It was a few days after I was logged for the first time on Wiki and day after I have come with rich sources [45], [46] which were disputing some of his edits regarding the population of the city, Zadar article. As you can see he didn't contributed to the discussion on the Talk:Zadar. He simply tried to solve his problem of my "existance" by marking me as somebody else's sock puppet.

Another example of his behaviour: first RFC was started at the Zadar talk page [47] where he wrote this comment: You have not intoduced the sources!!! After all my hard work with presenting sources (and work of other users too). It's transparent at the talk page. This user simply doesn't want to see other people's work and he's absolutely blind for other users sources. He acts like it doesn't exist.

Here you can see just a little part of his argues with other users: [48], see section "Why such words?". Actually all that page is a kind of dossier. Zenanarh 10:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: dossier of Giovanni Giove's misbehaviour and vandalisms. Over 70 (yeah, seventy, and 3 is too much!).Kubura 13:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Now the best of all comes: his "conduction" of 2 Requests for Comment on the articles Republic of Ragusa and Zadar that he started. In both cases the same thing. Example - Zadar RFC: he firstly changed the article into his version [49], [50], immidiately after that he put the tags [51] and started RFC [52]. When other users wrote their first comments he interfered by changing it. I simply cannot see how can I participate there, even I'm very interested in that discussion. I wrote it there [53], he immidiately deleted it [54]. This is all messed up. Zenanarh 10:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

That, when he inserted the template:suspected sockpuppet, is, according to WP:HARASSMENT (section: "User space harassment"): "Placing numerous false or questionable 'warnings' on a user's talk page..., placing 'suspected sockpuppet'...on the user page of active contributors...and otherwise trying to display material the user may find annoying or embarrassing in their user space is a common form of harassment.". Kubura 12:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've inserted that section. Giovanni Giove ignored all our requests and pleasing on the article talkpages, so I've referred to him directly User talk:Giovanni Giove on here on 26th June, 2nd time on 29th June, 3rd time on 3rd July, 4th time on 9th July. He still avoided any discussion on the talkpages (his only comment was "my claims are sourced, you're vandal, nationalist") and continued with edit-slaughter on the articles (while others substained, in order to avoid edit war, Giove behaved like the rules don't exist for him).
He was many times called to discuss disputes with us, on his talkpage, on the talkpage of articles of Republic of Dubrovnik and Jakov Mikalja (I haven't seen other articles, other users can whitness their experiences with Giove). Giovanni Giove ignored the data other users gave him. Even scanned pages of historical books of the historical persons concerned (source site was library of Croatian academy of sciences and arts and the Croatian national language institute). See Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik.
He belittled the scientific sources of small nations (especially Croatian, with "that's vandalism", "that's falsificiation", "that's not a trustable source or even racist remark "deliberate falsification that Croats do against Italian personalities of Dalmatia"). But, when he was given the source in Italian, neither that was good (published by local Italian academy of sciences and arts, of region Marche). Even the external link he gave as his source, wasn't good source anymore (RAI, Italian national TV) (case of article Jakov Mikalja).
He even disrupted the discussion and deleted the contributions there. [55]
I don't have to rewrite the whole story again. The talkpages of Talk:Jakov Mikalja is the best example.
Giovanni Giove also expressed one feature: negating and deny the term Croat. In every possible way, he's writing to avoid the mentioning the word of Croat, to deny the presence of Croats, Croat language or similar, or to "reduce" the percentage of Croat by adding "Serb", or "Serbocroatian" [56] and [57]. He's so blatant in these writings, that he even dared to start an RfC, with writing the nationname of Croats in quotationmarks (and that he didn't do with Italian or Latin). He even dared to restore that version [58] with quotation marks.
And when he cannot find the way to avoid that, than he writes the nameforms of persons in the older ortography solutions of Croatian (that used solutions from Italian, German, Hungarian for diacritics in the text written in Latin); the same policy was done in Mussolini's Italy, when the law against the "funny foreign names" was applied, so many surnames like Zlatarić became Slatarich (or completely translated in Italian). Modern historiography uses modern ortography. Kubura 13:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove also used method of threatning to other users. See this change [59] and comment "Rvv:undiscussed deletion of proper cocnepts&links. Unjustified tag (this accident will be reported". Typical for him. Threatning with "you'll be reported". The article in question was an contentforking, "Dalmatian Italians". Shall we make articles like "Yorkshire Pakistanis" as "historical ethnical group"? If he wants to write about Italians in Croatia, then why don't he writes that in the article Italians in Croatia? Why does he inserts internal links in "see also" like "Zara"??? Croatian city of Zadar had that name under Mussollini's Italy, until it was returned to Croatia after WWII. Do we have to tolerate such provocations here?
Giovanni Giove uses Wikipedia for his revisionist ideas. He even places the links to Italian border and history revisionist sites (www.dalmazia.it). How long do we have to tolerate that? Till he gets in clash with Greeks (Euboeia, Rhodos, Messolongion, Korfu) and French (Nice, Corse)? Kubura 13:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

When he was warned about his expansionist attitudes, he removed those, with comment "JSF stop to bulshit. YOu don't know about my attitutedes (I've delete your vandalism fro here)". [60]. In his previous removal of that warning [61] , he called it "Deleted usual Kubura's personal attacks". But these attacks were the things Giovanni Giove wrote.
Here's the message I posted called "Giove's attacks". [62]. Kubura 14:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's the text of that message. This was posted on it.wiki. We don't discuss on en.wiki the things on other wiki's, but this should be a guide and proof for those who don't believe. I posted this for others to see his attitudes.
Hi, everybody.
Here's Giove's message on it.wiki from July 30, 2006. I give it here, to show interested users Giove's attitude towards Croats and Croatia. [63].
"...: La nazione croata è un'invenzione dell'800. Prima non esisteva: non avevate nemmeno una lingua vostra. Ve la siete dovuta inventare a partire da uno dei vostri dialetti...".
The translation: "The yuYCroat nation is an invention from 1800's. Before it hasn't existed: you (Croats, translators' note) neither had your own language . You (Croats, translators' note) had to invent it from one of your dialects...".
In the same message there's an explicit anti-Croat attitude (though, it referres to Croatian War of Independence): "Ti faccio da ultimo presente inolre che hai elimanato tutti riferimenti ai crimini di guerra croati.. "... that you have removed all references to Croatian war criminals". Giove mentioned general Ante Gotovina, althought Gotovina is still under process. And even worse, he "attacked" me for removing that false reference (interesting, he hasn't mentioned any Serb war criminals at all, like Milan Martić and Milan Babić).
That was the message. Denying of Croatian nation and language. That tell's everything. Now make conclusions about his edits here. Kubura 14:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

One last comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The above discussions are closed, and nothing that requires administrator attention is present in THF's comments below. Please do not continue these sorts of things here. Take it somewhere else. David Fuchs ^(talk) 15:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

(Re: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Michael_Moore) —Preceding unsigned comment added by THF (talk • contribs) 11:49, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

As I forward yet another death threat I received to the admin of the IP of the emailer who sent it, I have one last comment. As a point of comparison, in February I complained about a POV-pushing SPA editor, who never disclosed any COI, and who never adhered to NPOV, and who repeatedly edit-warred, and who posted on a left-wing blog that she viewed herself as the "[subject matter omitted by THF to avoid google searches identifying her] Wikipedia Editor" on behalf of the left-wing blog. When I merely linked to the blog entry that this own editor posted herself under her real name, it was immediately redacted, and I was threatened with an indefinite ban by multiple admins, and almost was indef-blocked without a chance to note that I misunderstood the rule and wouldn't do it again.

I find it interesting the differing treatment I've received here, even though I have disclosed COI when I had it, I have avoided POV-pushing, I have avoided edit-warring, and I have spread my Wikipedia editing over many subjects and devoted substantial time to the scutwork of vandal-hunting, new article patrol, and BLP cleanup. But multiple editors feel free to disregard my request not to use my name even if they happen to know my identity, even if it is readily determinable by the fact that I use my initials, indicate my field of study, and the nature of my employer. And now there is a website linked to from Wikipedia that, in attempting to intimidate me from legitimate participation by encouraging many many crank phone calls, e-mails, and death threats, has printed personal information and an out-of-date photo.

WP:HARASS and WP:NPA#External links are both objective, rather than subjective, policies: application is math, not art, and not a question of "consensus", yet the if-then flow-chart presented by those rules was not followed, though no one arguing that it should not be applied did so with reference to the text of the rule. And WP:NPA#External links explicitly stated (before it was changed a few minutes ago) that edits made under its rule are not subject to the 3RR rule, but an editor following that policy to the letter and spirit was blocked. And not one person addressed ElinorD's reasoning on AN/I, preferring to joust with those more easily refuted.

Some editors are effectively arguing that I have waived the protections of WP:HARASS and WP:NPA because I followed the rules and disclosed COI when I had it, thus permitting inference of my identity, and those editors have effectively vetoed those who asked for neutral application of the rules. If that's the case, then NPA and HARASS should be amended to say as much. But it's hard for me not to suspect this would have turned out differently if had been David Horowitz pulling the exact same stunt with a left-wing editor of similar prominence. THF 01:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you certain you didn't misplace the note above? I'm not quite sure what to make of it. This noticeboard is for incidents which require administrative assistance. You should start by concisely explaining what sort of help you're after. El_C 08:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The title itself "One last comment," implies there were others, yet this section and its confusing contents seems to exist in isolation. El_C 08:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Abusive sockmaster on Meta, spillover to here.

As part of a checkuser investigation on Meta (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta:Requests_for_help_from_a_sysop_or_bureaucrat&oldid=653606#ja:WP:NODA_evading_block ) I discovered this same user running socks here. Activities here have not been as disruptive as on meta but I have chosen to block the socks indefinitely, they are not up to any good, editing the same areas and articles, as well as doing a bit of self promotion.

• YuiShop (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

This is not a real user, but rather a page created by someone without actually creating an account. The page has been deleted. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• Anymoerer (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

as well as blocking the underlying IP from anon edits for a month. I have left the sockmaster Noda,Kentaro (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) unblocked here, for now, but I advise an eye be kept, and certainly would not oppose a block. As always I invite review of my actions. ++Lar: t/c 02:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia mention on Australian radio leads to vandalism

Just an FYI... It appears that a Richard Glover, a radio host in Australia, decided to have a contest to play six degrees of separation between Earwax and Theory of Relativity. See history on Earwax and host's article for details. I went ahead and semi-protected Earwax as a preventative measure. -- Gogo Dodo 06:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey...I played that game on the radio...I lost ;) Anyway - about the protection. He also played games with other articles; not sure if that has had any impact on them each. Are you sure semi-protection was the best move? I mean, he has stopped playing that game now, so vandalism inspired by Glover's show should have stopped by now... -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 08:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

When multiple IPs showed up and started to pile on, I felt that semi-protection was necessary. I really didn't want to babysit the page while all of his listeners kept changing things. -- Gogo Dodo 17:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wedineinheck

Repeated vandalism[64][65] and personal attacks[66][67]. Warned repeatedly [68][69]. Perspicacite 07:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also warned Perspicacite myself against his arrogant, would-be-threatening tone, which I also consider a personal attack [70]. Also thought it would be more responsible to start a polite discussion about the subject [71] rather than going to bawl to the admins. Am ready and willing to discuss the matter with anyone capable of showing respect. Wedineinheck 07:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, Perspicacite was a little heavy handed by issuing a vandalism warning as it was clearly a content dispute. However, the WP:NPA warning was legit. nat^tang 07:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, Perspicacite should try to be a little polite with his fellow users if he wants to be respected. Wedineinheck 08:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well Wedineinheck, you could try to assume a little good faith when involved in these types of situations, even if the other editor isn't. nat^tang 08:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Nat, this editor is clearly engaging in vandalism and has continued to make personal attacks since his warning. He has passed the point at which his behavior should be tolerated. Perspicacite 08:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Perspicacite stated right away that I write "nonsense". He advised me to "use the sandbox" if I want to "experiment". He clearly implied that I am a cretin who does not know what he does. If that wasn't a personal attack, I don't know what that is. Hence, I am perfectly entitled to find him arrogant and obnoxious. Do not consider this as an attack, but as a personal opinion. His latest message here also makes me think that he behaves like a cry-baby. Ok, so I'll try to assume good faith and will now, in the future, ignore Perspicacite and won't engage in any debate with him. If I should assume his good faith, that would lead me to assume that this editor is unable to be polite and respect his interlocutors : so it is simply pointless to engage with him in any kind of heated exchange. I just have no time for this. Wedineinheck 08:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wedineinheck, the first message that Perspicacite left is a standard message template and not a personal attack. the template that Perspicacite used was {{subst:test2}}. nat^tang 08:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I strongly suggest that this template be modified, as it is the best way to offend users. Wedineinheck 08:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The template isn't the problem. The editor who placed it used it inappropriately, that's all. It's obvious that it was a good-faith but ill-judged edit which didn't deserve a nonsense tag. Chris Cunningham 09:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You, also, need to stop making personal attacks like this:[72] His action was not in good faith, nor have any of his subsequent NPA violations. How many personal attacks before he is blocked? Perspicacite 09:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

He registered only a month ago, he doesn't appear to have been in any other conflicts which would have resulted in having to read up on template/NPA policy to date, and the "personal attacks" in question are pretty obviously off-handed comments made defensively. I assume the personal attacks would stop if you started acting like his peer and not a wikicop. As for my own record, I don't need to be told I'm not as pure as the driven snow by people who go trolling my edit history for ammo when I make an observation on their behaviour. Chris Cunningham 09:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Perspicacite: the edits you list as "vandalism" weren't great edits, but presuming good faith, they probably weren't vandalism. This editor could have used an explanation that the Category:Racism wasn't intended as a list of racists, and the edit might be unnecessarily POV.

I think this was a situation where user warning templates might not do the job. The template would have been fine if this were a clear case of vandalism. / edg ☺ ★ 08:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Maybe {{uw-badcat}}. / edg ☺ ★ 08:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I could have used that indeed. Anyway, as the category includes people like Matthew F. Hale or even people simply accused of being racist like Edith Cresson, I'd say that it needs some polishing. Wedineinheck 09:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Sneeky edits in Planetarium (song) & Planetarium (song)

[73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78]

An IP is repetitively redirecting page removing article content. It is hard to notice because bots "fix" the double redirect before this is been noticed. I do not want to classify the IP as a vandal as per his/her/its useful contributions. Never the less there seems to be a problem. -- Cat ^chi? 07:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

While I do see quite the colourful collection of templates, did you or anyone try to simply explain to the user what they are doing wrong? El_C 11:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"An IP is repetitively redirecting page removing article content." Can you put that in English?Heqwm 03:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Advocacy of political violence in user page by User:AlanD

User:AlanD has a userbox supporting political violence. Specifically it says:

"This user supports antifa in combating fascism in both word and action.

If you read the antifa page you'll see that this is a thinly veiled promotion of political violence and intimidation. This is both a "polemical statement" and a "reference to real world violence", and it is not civil. If we replaced the terms with something like "This user supports KKK actions to combat miscegenation." or something along those lines the cries for blocks and bans would be incessant.

These sort of statements on user pages are extremely disruptive to wikipedia. They cause unnecessary conflicts, create the appearance of POV-pushing and an agenda, and could be potentially intimidating to other editors. I have asked this user to remove the template and his response was to rudely infer that I must be a fascist.

If these sort of userboxes were genuinely allowable on Wikipedia I would certainly not object to this person expressing his beliefs or will to act, but I don't think it's really allowed, by the policies or by what people are blocked for in practice. Some clarification of any policies relating to this would be welcomed.

-- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 09:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I dropped a note on his talk page. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 14:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

He's not removing the material. Nobody has an opinion? I don't see how stuff like that can stay because it opens a floodgate of offensive images, statements, and hidden harassment and intimidation of other editors. What is the line between a political statement and advocating violence? And is it ok to advocate violence against people of certain beliefs on your user page? If it is I think that should be made clear. I mean I wouldn't mind seeing some commies and nihilists getting beat up by street gangs, maybe I should put that on my page??? How is that supposed to work? -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 21:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

(cc on user talk) For the same reason you were blocked for removing stuff off El C's userpage a few days ago, if you do that again to AlanD's or any other user's User: page you will be re-blocked. Stop harrassing and pushing buttons like this. Georgewilliamherbert 22:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Further Michael Moore related issues

The article Controversies over the film Sicko was recently merged into Sicko per a consensus reached at Talk:Sicko. More recently, the merge was reverted by Noroton, the article's most active contributor and most vocal supporter in aforementioned merge discussion. Reverts of this un-merge per the earlier consensus were reverted by Noroton in turn, until he came close to violate the 3RR. [79] [80] [81] [82] The only rationale he provided for reopening the page at that time was an edit summary, stating that he was editing the article "to meet some objections from [the] original discussion", telling other editors to "wait till [he's] done".[83] Yet, Noroton has not posted at Talk:Sicko since, to see if the previous consensus might have changed.

Instead, he has reverted the merge once again, resumed working on it and also nominated it for deletion, arguing that the page had been rather deleted than merged and accusing other editors of a POV agenda. (Another conclusion drawn from the merge discussion was, that the only substantial controversies surrounding the film Sicko were those which were for the most part already mentioned in the main article, hence most of the content from Controversies over the film Sicko was indeed removed as insubstantial, a notion Noroton never objected to at Talk:Sicko.)

Several editors have previously suggested that the controversies article largely violates WP:SYN and that Noroton might be pushing an agenda of his own. Given his consensus defying reverts of the merge, without seeking further discussion and seeing him being mentioned on this noticeboard in connection with other Michael Moore related topics, I have to concede and would like to report aforementioned AfD nomination as an attempt to game the system. - Cyrus XIII 09:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it. He nominated his own 'synthesis,' for deletion? Anyway, with the AfD ongoing, what is it that you'd like done, specifically? El_C 10:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No, he nominated it for "keep."  ??? --ElKevbo 10:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You're-doing-what-now? El_C 10:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it's a pre-emptive AfD in which the nominator states that "this is a procedural nomination in the sense that I created the article and want to keep it." Either the nominator misunderstands the purpose of an AfD discussion or it's an attempt to game the system (or maybe I simply misunderstand the purpose of AfD discussions). --ElKevbo 11:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. That is certainly unconventional. El_C 11:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A decision was made to merge the articles in early July on the grounds that the movie had just come out and there wasn't any controversy. But the article was never merged: it was simply turned into a redirect without any content moved. An author's good-faith attempt to resuscitate a well-sourced article was repeatedly deleted on the grounds of the stale consensus reached before there was two months of controversy over the movie. Noroton is seeking a new consensus instead of edit-warring. It may not the best way to do it, but WP:CCC. This is a content dispute, already being addressed at the AFD, and doesn't need intervention. THF 10:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Is this is related to your note above that didn't make any sense to me? El_C 10:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

My note above is related to several closed discussions already on the page. Some of the players are the same, but Noroton's AFD predates the problem of an off-wiki attack site and the enforcement of WP:NPA#External links. Cyrus's complaint here violates WP:MULTI. THF 11:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. You may wish to unify it alongside those other sections, then, because it is pretty confusing all by itself. El_C 11:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering the noninator nominated it for AFD because he wants to keep it, I have closed the AFD as invalid. Procedural nominations are already stupid and pointless enough without the original nominator for deletion not actually nominating it for deletion. Neil ム 11:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. El_C 12:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now it needs admin intervention. User A tries to create an article. Users B and C revert the creation and turn it into a redirect without using the AFD procedure based on a stale discussion that clearly doesn't apply in changed circumstances to a different set of content. Why is a self-nominated AFD an inherently worse procedure for dispute resolution than an RFC? THF 12:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobody said anything when I made Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kieran Gibbs, maybe because they were too busy voting delete. What exactly is wrong with a self-nomination for AFD? ugen64 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Someone just redirected the long, sourced article, without any inclusion of the information in the main Sicko article. That's essentially de facto blanking. I've reverted the redirect. I have no problem with it being merged into the other article and then redirected, but simply redirecting without transferring the information is wrong in this case. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 13:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, the earlier consensus at Talk:Sicko was to drop a lot of the information from the separate controversies page and to just to keep issues that were considered genuinely controversial, as several editors explicitly recommended to "trim"/"summarize" the page before merging it. Discussion on the matter has now resumed at Talk:Sicko, so please leave that redirect intact for now and let proper dispute resolution (and maybe a change in consensus) take its course. - Cyrus XIII 14:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Without commenting on the specific content here, I think that Controversies about X articles should be aggressively avoided. They too easily become POV forks (no matter how well-intentioned at first), can become coatracks for X's detractors, and are too easy to expand to include really minor and petty criticisms that would likely be removed for space reasons if the editors were constrained to keep everything in one article. Thatcher131 15:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone here think it's possible that when an "incident" is brought up here you might notify the editor who you're complaining about? Is that really too much to ask? It states at the top of this page: "As a courtesy, you should inform other users if they are mentioned in a posting." Is that really so onerous? I mean, with all the time some of you spend here, I would think a quick note on the editor's talk page wouldn't be too difficult. Why can't you just do that? It's a fair, civil question, isn't it? It's not rhetorical: I'd really like to know why you don't. Should this be a requirement for anyone who initiates a discussion here? How can we impliment that?

Second, another fair question: How do you come to the conclusion that my AFD nomination was wrong? I don't know every Wikipedia rule, but I have seen procedural AFDs before. My mind is open and perhaps I'll agree that I didn't go about it in the right way. If I can avoid fighting this, I'd rather do that. So please give me the reason why it was right to close the AFD. I don't see a rule or principle or anything in the discussion so far that allows me to say, "Oh, if I only knew that, I wouldn't have nominated it there." Please, tell me. It's a fair question, isn't it? I've asked this same question on the talk page of the admin who closed the AFD, but I thought I'd post it here too, since you're already discussing it. Am I being reasonable to ask? Noroton 18:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes as a courtesy you should be informed when someone makes a report about you. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but it should.

Pertaining to your second question, the process is Articles for Deletion not Articles I created and want Keep'. AFD's are sometimes opened procedurally by admins/editors who are going through PRODs or speedy deletions, but as a rule we don't nominate things for deletion to keep them. That is why your AFD was closed. Had I noticed it I would have done the same thing the closer did. If you want to discuss the article, use the talkpage or open a WP:RFC. AFD was not the right process for what you were trying to do.--Isotope23 ^talk 18:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I can try answering the second question. AfD is for nominating articles for deletion, not for preemptive keeping. The procedural nominations you see are those sent from CSD, PROD, or DRV, and not those sent by editors to demonstrate a consensus for keeping. Also, nominating an article for AfD for the express purpose of showing it should be kept can be construed as a WP:POINT violation. —Kurykh 18:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both. I'll follow those links. I've made a proposal on the talk page that informing editors who have been the subjects of complaints should be not just a courtesy but mandatory, in the first line of either the complainant or the next editor to post a comment. Please participate in that discussion. Noroton 18:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Block user from talk page

I'm tired of User:Hornplease making unwanted remarks on my user talk page. I get it already — he didn't think two pages I tagged for deletion should have been deleted. OK, they didn't meet the criteria, fine, no big deal.

There is no reason for Hornplease to make insinuations about my "unfamiliarity" with wikipedia and its rules. I've tried to end the discussion twice but Hornplease continues to post messages. All I want is for Hornplease to drop it. Is that enough to ask? I'm obviously a valuable contributor to Wikipedia, and I'm tired of these unwanted remarks and waste of time. Timneu22 10:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

If you wish for Hornplease to cease posting on your talk page about an issue, a simple, polite request would be best. Edit summaries like this are unlikely to help. Raven4x4x 10:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I cleared my talk page because that discussion was moot. Whatever. He again contacted me and again I've stated that I'm done with this conversation. If he does it one more time, I'm making this request again. Timneu22 00:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As I made quite clear, my concern was obvious incivility on my talkpage and in edit summaries. I made no 'insinuations', merely responded to someone who has listed himself in cat:prospective admins who said "I am an admin on two wikis and if I was an admin on this one, these articles would be gone" with a suggestion that he look over the actual criteria for speedy deletion. All my - very polite - suggestions were met with escalating rudeness. Further, once the user indicated that he wished to drop the discussion about CSD, I ceased mentioning it, merely mentioning that perhaps dismissing my concerns as 'shit' and then leaving a note on my talkpage formatted in bold is perhaps not how one creates a collegial atmosphere. I ended with an apology, when one really perhaps wasn't due. I fail to see how this requires admin intervention; if this editor is as experienced as he wishes to claim he is, what is really needed is WP:TROUT. Hornplease 06:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Multiple User Problem

Editors with sufficient experience are taking undue advantage of their positions in life. I understand I've been making terrible mistakes. But, I've tried my best not to come here and do use this but, things are becoming impossible. Kindly check all the comments from the start. I at first request a content addition, but I am replied back with unwanted replies, warnings, and some times abuses, I am asked silly questions. I then have to reply and since I am mid way learning things, I reply things those violate the policies.

I do not like to complain against anyone in specfic. But, I've seen few users at wikipedia, who are almost editing 2-3 edits per 5 mins with multiple topics all through out the day, which is impossible. I understand this is none of my problem. But I am sure there are people with paid jobs here. I am not sure about any policy as such but this is bringing us part time editors real life problems. I hope things work well here.

Kindly check talk:vedas BalanceΩrestored ^Talk 11:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I entirely understand the nature of your note. What is the administrative action that you wish to see undertaken, specifically? El_C 11:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I only wish things controlled and that's it. Not to ban any one and only make editing peaceful. I do agree it was my initial mistake. But not everyone is innocent. BalanceΩrestored ^Talk 11:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

When I said specifically I meant with some level of precision. I doubt any admin can act on the basis of what provided thus far. El_C 11:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I presume you want to remove the warnings from your talk page? --DarkFalls ^talk 11:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

See, that I could understand. I suppose I just wasn't able to extrapolate it from the above. El_C 11:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

How is this editor able to edit so many topic all through the day? Contributions/Dbachmann: Has this editor no other work in life. How does he make his living? again he is very abusive. So, it is pretty obvious, there is something really fishy going on. BalanceΩrestored ^Talk 11:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not specific and such a comment, itself, is abusive; why would you reduce your argument to ad hominem? El_C 11:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well he could be retired... And many people are able to edit for 4 hours. I myself have edited for 14 hours nonstop on a Saturday... --DarkFalls ^talk 11:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It is around 8 hours persistantly. With multiple topics, with all the accuracy in the world. With 2 edit in a difference of 5 min. BalanceΩrestored ^Talk 12:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not peruse this line of conversation. I still don't understand what you're asking us to do? Stick to that. El_C 12:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, I blocked ~100 users today in three minutes. And I stand behind the accuracy of each block. El_C 12:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Can someone ask Dbachmann to be WP:CIVIL. This has happen multiple times [84]..BalanceΩrestored ^Talk 13:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

In spite of all that, I've done this multiple times .. [85]BalanceΩrestored ^Talk 13:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I see anything that would be worth warning Dbachmann about in the diff you linked. --Onorem♠Dil 13:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the relevant of Dbachmann's editing habits? It's like you're trying to slam him by ad hominem by painting him as a geek who never gets out, but it's backfiring terribly, because many of the rest of us also spend disproportionate amounts of time on Wikipedia, and we generally respect those who are dedicated. --Cyde Weys 13:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The only thing i see wrong here is BalanceRestores trying to slam a dedicated editor to discredit him and get the upperhand in an disagreement. I highly reccomend you carefully choose what you say next, make it about content it self, or at least relevant to the conversation. as Cyde says above me, many of us spend hours a day on here editing wide variety of topics. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Background: Incidentally Dbachmann is not the only user BalanceRestored (talk · contribs) is having a "problem" with, hence the name of this section. In fact I had even proposed a topic ban on the user (i.e. BalanceRstored) for continually spamming the Talk:Vedas page, and Dab was the only one who thought it wasn't warranted yet !

• You can see BR's activities on Talk:Vedas and this userified archive of that page.
• Here is a recent description of the problem with BR on Vassyana's page which led to the warning.
• Here is my polite attempt just a few hours back to answer BR's questions and explain the problem with his recent edits, which he blanked after filing this ANI complaint.
• Here are some previous ANI's the user has been a subject of or has started [86], [87], etc. The first of these led to an indef block of the user for disruption, edit warring and sockpuppetry. The block was lifted by User:Vassyana assuming good faith, and under these unblock condition.
• BR has been editing through this account for >4 months, and through (legitimate) alternate accounts for ~3 years. So WP:Bite does not apply in any case, though IMO numerous editors and two mentors (currently User:Hirohisat) have walked an extra mile to explain wikipedia's core function as an encyclopedia and content policies to this user ... alas with little to show for it.

Abecedare 14:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The first diff provided by RB was this. It was described as being an uncivil comment. Well, it is not. At the opposite it shows that Dab uses talkpages consistently to respond to questions re his edits. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

True, i agree with user:balanceRestored these(experienced) editors think its their area and they allow no "outsiders". Similar thing happened Talk:Kama Sutra, and many other places i edited, though no admin action is demanded here. They simply revert, they use all kind WP:XYZ, but dont ever reply straight to subject in matter. Lara_bran 04:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

William Hung

Resolved

Some very strange things have been going on in this article's history; people adding strange content and reverting each other (content appears to be addition of unrelated content, but more than one person seems to be adding this content). I think it needs watching; semi-protection perhaps. Thoughts? Comments? -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 10:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree. If the article and editing is steering away from the purpose of creating an encyclopaedia, action should be taken to put it back on track. thats my 2 cents. nat^tang 11:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Blatant vandalism now. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 10:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. As Riana said in a very old archive, "Reverted? Blocked? Now, ignore ;)" Turned the autoblock on so he doesn't do any more damage. --DarkFalls ^talk 11:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Problems with a vandal using the 59.xxx.xx.xxx range and Republic of China/Taiwan articles

For the last two months or so several editors and I have been having problems with this person who has been using a IP range (59.xxx.xx.xxx} and vandalizing Republic of China/Taiwan articles with his/her political views; replacing Republic of China, Taiwan, Republic of China (Taiwan), etc, with Republic of Taiwan. In normal circumstances and on other articles, this would be considered as a content dispute, however, the Republic of Taiwan does not exist and is only a proposal by a political coalition in the ROC. This IP vandal has been clearly warned many times not to continue to vandalize articles with his/her political views, but ignores them and there is nothing that editors could do but to revert his/her edits because it would be highly improbable that a sysop or a crat would block an entire range and it would be completely unfair to the IPs that have made good contributions to these articles. What more or less permanent/long-term action could we take against this vandal as this is getting quite annoying and frustrating. nat^tang 12:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The only instances I could find were very sporadic, e.g., their last edit to Republic of China was on August 8. Any remedy would have negative consequences that greatly outweighed the benefits. As you have noted, we can't block 59.0.0.0/8, and semiprotecting the articles would eliminate constructive contributions from anons. When problems occur at such an infrequent pace it's best simply to deal with them as they arise. Raymond Arritt 16:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A note about the {{discussion top}} template

Today alone, I have had to fix the use of the {{discussion top}} template about a dozen times. Please read the documentation. The most important thing is: Place the {{discussion top}} template BELOW the header. Otherwise, archiving bots will NOT move the template with the discussion, malforming both the archive and the discussions left behind (anything below the template becomes "closed"). So please, place it below the header. Thank you. — Edokter • Talk • 15:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

User:eyrian repeatedly removing comments from AN/I

User:eyrian has repeatedly removed comments regarding his actions from this page, here[88] and here[89]. This is on top of a series of clashes that he's been having with other users for at least 2 days now, which have continued to escalate in in part due to his disregard for consensus and for WP:CIVIL. I request that he be blocked for a cooldown period. Artw 16:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

They were unrelated attacks on me. The issue in question was resolved. If you want to start such a discussion, I suggest an RfC. I would ask that those considering this situation in fullness note that Artw has admitted to wikistalking me, in a manner I would characterize as harassmnet, as demonstrated here. --Eyrian 16:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

That I happen to have checked yuour contrib page a couple of times a reverted what I consider to be bad edits by you (In one case preventing an article from being deleted against procedure due to your misapplication of a templater) is not wikistalking under the description here: WP:WIKISTALK, no have I admited to being a "Wikistalker" - possibly you would like to retract that claim? Artw 17:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Your remarks on your talk page, and your contributions, make it pretty clear that you've been persistently following me around. I believe that it's harassment, but it hasn't gone too far, yet. --Eyrian 17:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Re-read WP:STALK. It specifically mentions that using a contribs page to follow up on errors and violations of Wiki policy is not stalking. Arguably, repeatedly deleting content (the same content multiple times in most cases) without seeking consensus is a violation of policy. Certainly the deletions in the earlier thread here are a huge conflict of interest issue. So, he does have grounds to keep an eye on someone who's making edits counter to Wiki policy.

Unless he's specifically doing it to harass you, you're making a groundless claim. Dstumme 17:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I can assure you, I've read it carefully. It's because there haven't been any blatant violations that I haven't pursued any further action. --Eyrian 17:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

And yet you feel justified in making the bad-faith accusation anyway, when you know that it's not accurate. Whatever happened to assuming good faith? You ask it of others as a way of justifying your edits, but other people don't get that same benefit, and instead are accused of WikiStalking? Chalk another one up on the list of policies you have problems with, I guess. Dstumme 18:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

and [90] again. Artw 16:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It is entirely unacceptable to remove other people's comments. If you feel they're an attack, report them, but you have to let people have their say if they feel they have a legitimate issue with you. Their post will be judged on its merit, you may not preempt the whole discussion by removing the complaint. VxP 16:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not preempting any discussion. User:Artw has raised this issue, and I have no problem exploring it in fullness. The problem begins when a thread about a resolved issue branches out into unrelated personal remarks. --Eyrian 16:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Then you should let an uninvolved editor handle it. When you remove remarks about you, it makes it look like you're trying to supress the conversation. VxP 16:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• I've closed the above discussion... the original problem has been addressed... it's time to let it go and move on to dispute resolution if there are additional concerns with editor behavior that need to be addressed.--Isotope23 ^talk 16:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Rameriz

Rameriz (talk•contribs) has been making a quite a few additions of "Last words: " to various articles about characters in The Godfather. Nothing incorrect, as far as I can see; not exactly vandalism; but the additions don't flow with the rest of each article, and he seems set on adding them. What's the right approach here? Philip Trueman 17:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Remove and link to q:Fictional last words in film#The Godfather (using {{wikiquote}}). The section doesn't exist yet, but nothing's stopping it from creation. Will ^(talk) 17:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Range block to deal with User:SallyForth123

Resolved

User was originally blocked for 3RR and evaded block by using IP edits confirmed by checkuser. Block was reset, then extended by another admin. I have since been tracking continuous IP block evasion and two user accounts used for block evasion by this user. This resulted in the block being extended twice more; it now is one month long. The articles being edited by the blocked users are many NASA related articles. I've maintained a partial list here: User:Sanchom/SallyForth123. I suggest a range block that covers the IP addresses at Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of SallyForth123 or semi-protection of every article edited by this user (including those edited via sockpuppets). I am posting this here because both of these measures have more than minimal collateral effects, but something needs to be done to better enforce the block on SallyForth123. Sancho 17:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to do the range block, but it looks like the following ranges would be sufficient (by looking at the WHOIS)

• 75.36.168.0 - 75.36.175.255
• 75.37.8.0 - 75.37.15.255
• 76.204.176.0 - 76.204.179.255

Sancho 18:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Can an administrator delete two copy-vio images with fake licensing?

See Image:Whitney_Houston_On_Stage.jpg and Image:Whitney_Houston_In_Concert.jpg. Thanks. Miranda 18:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The uploader claims they were self-taken and is releasing them under the GFDL. On the site linked to in the speedy deletion requests, the copyright information is: "All photos belong to the original copyright holder. If you see any of your pictures here and they are copyrighted contact me.". It is possible that the uploader did take the pictures. Sancho 18:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Some of the pictures are on wireimages, a NC-ND site here. Thus, they are not free images. But, hopefully they will be deleted after 7 days. NC-ND pictures are not allowed to identify a living person. One was deleted. Miranda 18:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, you can buy images from Wireimages.com, but the rights don't necessarily belong to the buyee, but rather the person who took the pictures. Miranda 18:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The best place for this is WP:CV. If you think the images are copyvio but are not sure, see WP:PUI. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 18:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Zac Efron

Resolved

Could someone please revert this edit? I'd do it myself, but the page has been sprot'ed. Av99 18:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It's been taken care of. Thanks. Av99 18:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Tom Coburn

I am currently involved in a content dispute with User:TDC at the article Tom Coburn. Talk page discussion, RfC filed, all that is okay. But TDC insists on harping on some unrelated edits in another article instead of discussing the article at hand. An editor should engage in talk page discussion but should not be forced to defend his edits on an entirely different article. (Note that I've already stated I will defend the edits he objects to on the talk page of the relevant article) I have refused to take his bait and have removed the off topic personal commentary instead of responding in kind and trolling through his edit history to drag in some additional irrelevancies. TDC has a long history of incivility (see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/TDC-2) against other users as well as me personally and has been sanctioned by Arbcom (more than once I believe). I have chosen to remove his off-topic commentary, but he has reverted my removal four times today. I am willing to discuss the Tom Coburn article with an antagonistic editor, but I feel this behavior is not something I should have to put up with and I request intervention. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 19:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Rather than risking 3RR by reverting, it might be better to just ignore him. I also don't think, in general, that it's completely inappropriate to point out to an editor a perceived inconsistent application of the same policy in different articles. It's a matter of degree, I guess. - Crockspot 20:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• And I could point out many such instances of his behavior. Where does that get us? Tit for tat doesn't resolve the original content dispute and such a flame war would be unproductive and inappropriate. I want to avoid that and discuss only the article at hand. Why should I be forced to put up with deliberately antagonistic behavior? Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 20:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• That's why I recommend ignoring him. If taking up the discussion on other pages helps the situation, all the better, but that's up to you. You cannot control how others behave, only how you react to them. - Crockspot 20:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, removing my comments from the talk page is WP:Vandalism, especially considering that you have not alleged that it was a personal attack here. Secondly, as I explained on the article’s talk page, your behavior on the article, as well on others, might be of interest to users that you have continued to revert, many times W/O explanation. They deserve an explanation why you argue policy on one article, and take the flip side of it on another. This is also not the first time you have been accused of doing this (Lori Klausutis comes to mind, (and what exactly did the real Joe Scarborough have to say about that one?). But thank you for coming here, as I asked after your first revert on the talk page. And lastly, you breched 4 revrts on that page befor I did. And, for the record, that RfC is over 2 years old. My behavior has been much better since then. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually you are suppose to remain on topic when discussing articles, meaning you should only be discussing ways to improve said article, not faults you find in editors on those articles. There is also the issue of using ad hominems. What is the point of making other users aware of what you believe is bad behavior? There is a method for this in the form of a RfC. Like everyone else, including Crockspot, I think the two of you should discuss articles on the relevant talk pages and attempt not only discuss the content of those articles. --SevenOfDiamonds 20:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This comment seems directed at Gamaliel. Please use his or her talk page for these types of comments. This page is for discussing incidents requiring administrator intervention. Sancho 20:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the choice here is that either you are both blocked for 3RR, or you try to work this out. You both have valid positions. TDC, I think you could be less combative about it. Gamaliel, I think you could try to have a little more introspection about it. This inconsistency issue, whether real or perceived, is a problem I see a lot, and am accused of myself. I try very hard to edit neutrally and apply consistently, but a truly neutral editor recently pointed out a few things that made me realize that while not pushing POV, I was not quite as neutral as I had believed I was. We all have room for improvement. I think you are both mature enough to walk away from each other for a short time, and try to work this out later civilly and with an open mind. As Sancho says, there is no need for admin intervention here, unless you both want to be blocked. - Crockspot 20:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

If TDC feels there is a pattern of improper editing, then he (as I have previously told him) should bring it up on my personal talk page or start an RfC. Talk:Tom Coburn is not the proper forum for this. I have always been willing to stand by my edits and defend them, but I am not willing to do so as part of a cheap ploy to get the upper hand in an unrelated content dispute. (I doubt, in the example you gave above, this neutral editor brought your editing issues to your attention in such a manner.) Do you really think that this is appropriate behavior? If so, then I could easily bring up plenty of examples of his shoddy behavior. How would that do anything to resolve the issue? When an editor is acting appropriately, the proper response is not to advise other editors to ignore him, but to intervene to stop the inappropriate behavior. I wish to resolve this issue in a civil manner, but being forced to put up with this behavior is not a satisfactory or appropriate response. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the discussion should continue in more appropriate venues, and I think that I implied that. As you well know, I have no power to do anything other than express my opinion. I think you guys should just take a break from each other, and work this out with cooler heads later. I also advised TDC earlier on his talk page not to further aggravate the situation. - Crockspot 21:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to imply that you personally should have done any more than you have done, but that "ignore him" is not an appropriate repsonse in general to a dispute requiring intervention. TDC has removed the offending material at your request, which is a satisfactory conclusion to this matter, but his long term problems with civility remain an issue. Since you seem to have some influence with him, perhaps you should have a talk with him before he ends up before Arbcom yet again. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess I should have clarified "ignore him for today". - Crockspot 21:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. Taking a bit of time to cool off is always good advice. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Per the above I have blocked User:Jamessouth per WP:DUCK as a SPA sock/meatpuppet. And I'd reinforce what Crockspot said; the blocks (for 3RR or just tendentious editing) will be coming out very soon unless this stops. ELIMINATORJR 20:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope you are not suggesting that I am in any way related to Jamessouth. Please clarify. Thank you. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying that, but the account is fairly obviously being used purely to edit-war (incivilly) on those articles, so I blocked it. ELIMINATORJR 21:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. Sorry about the confusion. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Misou harasses another editor on talk page

An editor put this notice on Misou's talk page: [91] Misou then cut and pasted that notice and put it on User:RookZERO's talk page. [92] I think this is disruptive behavior. --Fahrenheit451 20:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC) Misou's Block log:[93]--Fahrenheit451 20:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Fahrenheit451 has been an extremely tendentious, POV-pushing and insulting editor for some time now who has been clearly "out to get" Misou and other editors who have been in disagreements with him. Misou's no angel, to be sure, but Misou doesn't deserve this routine harassment and net-cop tattletale wikistalking that Fahrenheit451 inflicts on several other editors on an almost daily basis. As someone who is often myself on the receiving end of Fahrenheit451's most unpleasant baiting, heckling and insulting behavior, I fully understand how Misou might lose his/her temper once in a while, and/or come to the conclusion that such angst is acceptable after observing others doing it freely. Don't take my word for it - a simple perusal of Fahrenheit451's contributions page for the last 2-3 months will clearly illustrate what I'm speaking of. wikipediatrix 20:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipediatrix seems to want to misdirect the reporting of disruptive cofs editors. That is too bad.--Fahrenheit451 21:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Was it harassment when the original message was left on Misou's talk page? --Onorem♠Dil 21:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

That is not relevant. It came from one editor and Misou pasted on the page of another editor.--Fahrenheit451 21:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand... he left a comment on another user's page. That comment doesn't appear to be uncivil, although I don't know the history nor why he would paste it there. The user in question hasn't complained or removed it. This really isn't the complaints department, and it's hard to see how that action warrants urgent administrative intervention. If RookZERO doesn't want the comment on his talk page, he can remove it. If Misou keeps replacing it, or starts getting more demonstrably uncivil, then we'll see... but this really doesn't seem actionable to me. MastCell ^Talk 21:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I will explain it again: An editor put this notice on Misou's talk page:[94]Misou then cut and pasted that notice and put it on a different editor's User:RookZERO's talk page. [95]

Pardon me, but that is quite obnoxious. Perhaps RookZERO has not logged in and noticed. --Fahrenheit451 21:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. I suppose I was wondering if there was more to it than that. Apparently there is not. Maybe we can wait for RookZERO to decide how bothered he is by the post before coming here? I'd still suggest that the best response to an unwanted talk page post is to remove it with an edit summary gently discouraging such posts. If it becomes a recurrent problem along the lines of harassment or edit-warring on someone's talk page, then that's different. MastCell ^Talk 22:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually it may be more of a harassment issue than it seems, and there is a history. Misou and RookZERO have been involved in some edit warring: 3RR 17 August - ANI 20 June. *note* they also interacted between these two diffs, I just want to illustrate how long this has been going on. Anynobody 05:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Fidel Castro

There are what appear to be genuine rumours (ie the rumours are genuine) that he has died but nothing official of course and thus its becoming a bit of a struggle to stop over-eager new users from trying to declare this "fact" in the article. Any admins who wanted to add this to their watchlist would be appreciated, SqueakBox 21:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Alright. (ps. I linked the article in the title for ease of use). LessHeard vanU 21:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

All the talk about "apologies" and ArbCom cases and such is quite confusing. What's that all about? android79 21:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As some major news organizations [96][97] are beginning to report the rumours, and the Cuban government has officially denied them, it may be worth adding a one-line reference that his death is rumoured in the section about Castro's health. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 21:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

These sources are reporting upon the rumours that are being circulated (one quotes the blog which seems to be the current source of these claims) and nothing in regard to Castro's supposed demise. Perhaps a line or two in a couple of days when the current rumour mongering dies down - or Castro's death is announced - on the continuing claims about his health will suffice. LessHeard vanU 22:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom? Lol. Even if he is dead we wait for major news sources, but you all know this anyway, SqueakBox 22:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I declined the page protection request, because I want folks to be able to respond quickly if it is announced. However, I'm sitting on that article camped out right now and watching for speculation. I've already blocked one person for continually putting it in there (3RR, unsourced BLP violations, etc...) - Philippe | Talk 22:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

(dedent) this is a controversial and popular enough figure that there are probably far more than enough people watchlisting this, it should be no problem to maintain without page protection. It's better to offer people a window into how Wiki works than keep everything under wraps for the sake of accuracy. Citizendium can do that for us --lucid 22:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Cool. There is no question that the rumours are real and I posted here because I didnt want protection but do want admin input into protecting this article. Obviously reverting his death date more than 3 times isnt 3RR cos its unsourced BLP vio but claiming the rumours are real is 3RR. We have to be squeaky clean (lol) on this one, so block away, SqueakBox 22:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Harassment, sockpuppetry, POV-pushing, trolling

This is a complex matter so please take some time to read this carefully and investigate it properly.

Alex Kov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been pushing an infobox with the nationalist ORish fringecruft into the top of the nice Kievan Rus article for last two weeks or so. He did so under his account name as well as logged out from several 133.. and 202.. IP's. He reinserted the stuff 20 times at least (over a dozen times in last seven days alone) and was reverted by at least 6 different users.

Several users also took pains to go into elaborate explanations at many talk pages [98], [99], [100], [101] to no avail.

Finally, yesterday, said Alex Kov violated 3RR even technically (note 4 reinsertions of infobox within 19 hours reverted by several users). I still did not report him initially, and in return got a false 3RR report he concocted on myself. I stopped editing the article anyway because this was getting on my nerves and rv warring is plain stupid. Instead I posted even more elaborate explanation on article's talk.

Two things happened in the meanwhile. First, suddenly and out of the blue the newly created account Zgoden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (still redlinked as of now) pops up to revert to Kov's version and revert again when yet another admin undid the lunatic change to the article. That same account harasses me at my talk with the bogus civility warning for something I never even did.

Another development was the issue being joined by another disruptive account of Hillock65 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who recently re-established the notoriety although got lucky here after the most famous incident now in the archives at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive166#User:Hillock65 and "Jewish atrocities during the Ukrainian famine".

The most recent incident with Hillock was discussed these days at this AN thread followed by a feedback left to me by an admin who initially spared Hillock from yet another block.

Anyway, anyone with time on their hands, please investigate this, make sure you click on diffs and links, and do something to stop harrassment, sockpuppetry, single-purpose accounting, fringe POV-pushing and other you name it, we've got it.

I am also tired of the new wave of persistent accusations by Hillock and Alex Kov that claim their perceived "adversaries" worship "Ukrainophobic views" which will doubtlessly follow if they choose to post to this thread. Being a Ukrainian myself, I find these accusations ridiculous and annoying. --Irpen 21:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Zgoden as a fairly obvious sockpuppet, likely of Alex Kov. A brand-new user who jumps in when Alex hits 3RR, leaves WP:CIVIL warnings for Alex's adversaries complete with diffs, and cites "rm original research" in their first 5 edits is not a new user. No comment on the rest of the complaint. MastCell ^Talk 21:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Now he acts as Zgoden2 (talk · contribs). I have indefblocked the second puppet as well Alex Bakharev 02:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to second the above request to take some time to analyze this matter closely as it is a complex one indeed. To me it is an obvious attempt to get rid of opponents in content dispute by an editor, who assumed ownership of East European articles and viciously harasses everyone, who dares to disagree with him. Just look at the rediculous accusations he levels at his opponents - "POV pushing" and "disruptive", while he neglected to mention that no evidence of disruptive behaviour has been presented and I asked him before to present evidence of POV-pushing as most of my edits are restricted to arguments on discussion pages. As well, User:Irpen conveniently ommitted the fact that he himself had been repored for 3RR on the very same day he accused others of disruptive behaviour. As far as the anti-Ukrainian bias, it is not me who accused him of this, but rather he himself (Talk:Kievan Rus'), I merely pointed at double standards in relation to Ukrainian topics, when the same practice at article Muscovy is dismissed as "not mine" and "doesn't concern me" and in Ukrainian articles the main concern is the "fear" that those resemble the modern Ukrainian symbols. This is the user who openly boasts of being the warrior with Ukrainian nationalism and now he makes a feeble attempt to present himself as neutral just because he is from Ukraine? This situation indeed needs to be resolved as in my view User:Irpen and his Russian nationalist friends assumed control over East European articles and harass everyone, who dares to change anything that they feel they have control over. I personally, stopped actively editing in this encyclopedia precisely for this reason because by daring to disagree with this user one is subjected to constant harassment and character assassination attempts as you can see above. I didn't edit the article in dispute at all!! All these attacks are for daring to challenge his chokehold on that article at talk! And I am not the only user, who is virtually being forced out from editing in this WP, and that is just for daring to speak up as by far most of my edits are interwiki and talk page arguments. This situation needs to change as this points at fundamental flaw of the English WP - that if you don't have a muscle to gang up and shove your POV you are insignificant and your presense is meaningless here. Every user should be able to feel secure from harassment from more numerous and better organized gang of users. Although I do condemn sockpuppetry and edit warring in strongest terms, one should look at the root cause of all of it - inability to argue your case without being harassed and forced out from WP. Well sourced and well-balanced articles should prevail over what certain national cliques belive it should look like. And civilized discussion should prevail over ad hominem attacks and character assassination attempts over daring to speak up against this abuse. Again, I would advise other users not to take my word for it, but rather to look at this matter objectively and see the serious problems that plague the East European topics. --Hillock65 23:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, this vicious response is self-explanatory. I would point out just a few random lies it includes out of many.

Allegation: "User:Irpen conveniently ommitted the fact that he himself had been repored for 3RR on the very same day"

Fact. Quote from my post: "I still did not report him initially, and in return got a false 3RR report he concocted on myself. "

Allegation: Hillock writes "most of my edits are interwiki and talk page arguments."

fact: check recent history of Russians in Ukraine, his [[revert warring there. This recent diff (check the caption he added) goes beyond words.

allegation: Hillock writes: "This is the user who openly boasts of being the warrior with Ukrainian nationalism"

fact: the only thing I can think of that I said on this issue is this. Read for yourself and make up your own mind.

The rest of this rant is self-explanatory. Go investigate please. I very much asked for the same and I am pretty much tired of this all. --Irpen 23:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I am sick and tired of this too. So, let's set the record strait: As far as my edits, please take the trouble to look at my edit history for the past two weeks[102] and see, how many edits I did and what the ratio is of interwiki edits to any other edits (this fact twisting is beyond comments).
  • Check the lowerly attempt to accuse me of something in this edit[103], where he claims there is something wrong with the captioning I translated from Russian. Did I render the Russiaan anti-semitic inscription on the placard wrong? Or is it another lowerly attempt to accuse me of something that I didn't do and sway opinions of those who do not understand Russian? Why don't you provide a better translaton for Russian text Жидо-массони губят весь мир?! This accusation is another attempt at character assassination for daring to disagree with him!
  • As for his vendetta against Ukrainian nationalists, let his own words speak for themselves:(To start with, very few editors can claim a greater credit for keeping the Ukrainian nationalism out of the wikipedia articles than myself. --Irpen 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)) I only wish that his crusade aganist Ukrainian nationalists is accompanied by the same treatment of Russian nationalists, especially those of his friends who openly worship Stalin on their user pages.

Again, I don't have anything to hide or to be ashamed of, my only "transgression" is that I dared to challenge his chokehold on Eastern European topics and most of it on talk pages! And for that I am subjected to vicious attacks and fact twisting to villify me. I only hope that one can see beyond accusations of this obviously biased user. --Hillock65 00:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC) All I am asking is to whoever is reading this click the diffs above and decide for yourself. --Irpen 03:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

A user is deleting sources to articles, deleting warnings on his talk page, and acting extremely uncivil

User:Daddy Kindsoul first came to my attention when he deleted a source I had added to the NOFX page.[104] Since then he has deleted sources on that page 3 other times.[105][106][107]

When I confronted him about this he deleted my comment.[108]

I confronted him again, and again he deleted it[109], as well as left me an incivil message on my talk page.[110]

I hope an administrator can at the veyr least set this user straight.Hoponpop69 21:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It appears that Kindsoul was unfairly deleting your original source - of course then you deleted his that he added ([111]). I've just included both sources as a compromise.--danielfolsom 21:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The only reason I deleted Kindsoul's source was because the same source cited the same information in the articles infobox.Hoponpop69 22:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• I have left a note on his talk page. However, suggesting to him that he could be blocked for reverting your changes perhaps wasn't the best way of going about things. As for the article itself, as I said to him, content disputes are best fixed by discussion on the talk page. Unless this escalates, there's no reason for admin intervention here. ELIMINATORJR 21:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Daddy Kindsoul (talk · contribs) is the new name of Deathrocker (talk · contribs) who has an extensive block log and is under revert parole per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Deathrocker. You may want to shift this complaint to WP:AE. Thatcher131 23:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A legal snag with 6 new images

• This discussion has been moved to Wikipedia:Media copyright questions#A legal snag with 6 new images. Anthony Appleyard 22:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

El_C (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

I'll probably get blocked for blocked for this, but...

I believe that User:El_C is inappropriately editing on my talk page, threatening to block me if I continue disputing with Anonimu (talk · contribs). I doubt that El C is non-partisan in this matter, as his user page expresses sentiments to that normally seen of Anonimu.

The reason why I keep an eye on Anonimu and not his opponents is because it's better to deal with the devil you know than the devil you don't, and Anonimu had come to my attention via a friend of a friend, and I posted on ANI giving my opinion upon the 100 edits previous to that posting, and I recommended that he be blocked. Since then, he hasn't changed.

The point is that El_C is thinking too highly of the sysop bit, thinking it conveys authority, by telling me unilaterally to stop disputing or I'll be blocked, without citing a single policy or guideline as to why - in any of my disputes with Anonimu, I have stood by either multiple policies, guidelines, or a mixture of both - WP:HARASS excepts checking an editor's contributions to fix policy violation (in my most recent one with him, yesterday, NPOV, and in the most recent one regarding him, on his talk this afternoon, NPA (Nazi is a personal attack regardless of veracity)), and also prohibits intimidation and threatening of users, which I feel El_C is doing, and would prefer that if someone warned or discouraged him not to do so. Will ^(talk) 21:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As a note: saying "I'll probably get blocked for this" is being rather uncivil. So is calling Anonimu the devil. Remember to Assume Good Faith--danielfolsom 22:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

(ec) It was probably a poor choice of words, but "the devil you know than the devil you don't" is a common expression. android79 22:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" is a common idiom and is in no way an attack on Anonimu's character. I'll concede slightly on the "I'll probably get blocked for this...", though.

Will ^(talk) 22:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, you're correct - sorry I'm not sure why i mentioned that as I'm aware of the idiom - I guess I was reading your comment a bit too fast - my mistake.--danielfolsom 22:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Err, what is the dispute about, exactly? android79 22:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Which dispute? With El C, succintly, I think that El C is threatening and intimidating me without basis. Will ^(talk) 22:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

To me it appears that sceptre is following Anonimu and involving himself in disputes Anonimu is involved in - and El_C believes that he is doing this to an extreme, saying it's "to the point where, one time, you even supported one of the tens of sockpuppets Bonaparte has unleashed against him" - however the bigger issue is whether El_C has the authority to tell Screptre (s)he is "out of his dispute, effective immediately." As to whether or not he is allowed to do that is not for me to decide--danielfolsom 22:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

About Bonaparte, yes, I did support Bonaparte's sock to get Anonimu banned, but no, I didn't know it at the time, and I provided about a dozen links showing why he should be, so it's hardly blind support of a banned user. (And by the way, I'm a he). Will ^(talk) 22:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Anonimu is currently blocked for edit-warring, so there should be no active dispute at the moment. His block log makes a convincing case that there's a serious problem, and he's prefaced his talk page with a note telling people not to bother, which isn't the most collaborative approach. That said, things have clearly reached the point where a more community-based form of dispute resolution (e.g. RfC or WP:CSN) should be considered rather than perpetuating a one-on-one dispute. MastCell ^Talk 22:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably what got El_C annoyed was me removing a thread on Anonimu's talk which called Anonimu's opponents a "hate group" and "nazi sympathisers" - both personal attacks regardless of veracity. Besides, wasn't that what Anonimu wanted, for a clean talk page? Will ^(talk) 22:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've dealt with Anonimu in the past (also blocked him before). The user is a habitual trouble user, anyone who sees his extensive block log can see this. I agree that it is unfair to threaten Will because of this, considering his clean block log the threat of a unilateral block is out of line I believe. Though I think it would be wise for you to take a breather from dealing with Anonimu for the moment.--Jersey Devil 22:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Anonimu is the target of the long term-harassment lead by Bonaparte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Secondly, he did not violate the letter of 3RR. Whether he edit-warred in general to deserve a block is a separate matter on which I have no opinion at this time. I simply request more eyes keeping an eye on various open proxies, IPs, socks and trolls who attack Anonimu all the time to present him a much more of a trouble user than he is. This week only I personally removed half a dozen of false reports on Anonimu placed on this board as well as AN by Bonaparte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) with concocted discussions and falsified signatures. Will Sceptre revert-warred at Anonimu's page as late as today.

I leave it up to others whether to unblock Anonimu this time. It is a matter of judgment whether his still under 3RR reverts of trolls, socks and open proxies constitutes disruption. But I ask for some sympathy towards the guy who is, no angel true enough, the subject of the harassment campaign unheard since the times of Bonny and his socks ejected user:Node_ue, also a non-angel, from Wikipedia. Just my comment on this. --Irpen 22:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that Scpetre is trying to get a rise out of the user; that is not acceptable and he may be blocked for harassment if it continues. Jersey Devil has already showed himself to be one-sided in this dispute (which is why Sceptre has consistently canvassed him for his involvement), so I am opting to take his obvious sympathy with a grain of salt. Either you review all users involved in the dispute fairly (that is, review the other side, to begin with), or matters are gonna become worse and further away from resolution. Thx. El_C 22:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've had no contact whatsoever from Sceptre about this. I just happened to view it while reviewing AN/I. Please remember AGF. Needless to say, I am surprised by your conduct on this matter El C. I've usually found you to be a fair admin, but your attempts to minimize my thoughts on this matter by saying that I am "one-sided" and was "canvassed" is completely out of line. I guess that is what passes as admin-to-admin discussion these days.--Jersey Devil 22:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Likewise. I did not say you have initiated contact, and these are concerned that I have, in fact, disclosed to you in the past. El_C 22:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The only reason why I've talked to Jersey about Anonimu is because he dealt with him recently. Will ^(talk) 22:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I want you to stay away from Anonimu, and most definitely refrain from reporting him on AIV, as you did yesterday. El_C 22:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree in that AIV should only be used for pure vandalism and not on POV pushing.--Jersey Devil 22:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Persistent POV pushing is vandalism (WP:VANDAL: "Though inappropriate, [POV pushing] is not vandalism in itself unless persisted in after being warned.") Will ^(talk) 22:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

If El_C has time, he would be the best person to mentor Anonimu. He is familiar with the context and has the right attitude. Mentoring Anonimu may include having to block him from time to time, proding him here and there and keep Bonny sock/meatpuppets away from him. And JD is too block-happy to deal with complex matters. Just a suggestion. --Irpen 22:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with both the suggestion and the "block-happy" claim (which is needlessly incivil). If Anonimu were to get a mentor it should be a completely indifferent third party admin.--Jersey Devil 22:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

JD, please cut on the unwarranted civility talk. This bogus civility stuff is brought about every time someone is criticized. Criticism may be "unfair" but there was no incivility in my entry whatsoever. As for the fairness I never ever heard of you before this sad incident which was self-explanatory enough. And I challenge you to find a single sign of misconduct by El_C that would make him improper for dealing with this matter. I say, the best mentor should better be aware of the history of the problem and have an immaculate reputation. That's all. --Irpen 23:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Civility isn't bogus, it's policy. Will ^(talk) 23:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL is a policy. Falsely invoking it in unrelated disputes is a bogus. And gaming WP:CIVIL is responsible for more WP trouble than Willy on the Wheels with all his socks. But this is a side issue. There is no civility issues whatsoever in my entries above. Please stay on topic and refrain from "uncivil citing of WP:CIVIL" to deflect the discussion away from the topic. The issue at hand that Anonimu needs to be contained but harassment of him (including by Will Sceptre) has got to stop NOW. --Irpen 23:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

To get back to the reporting user's opening statement, I don't know the players here or the history well enough to be able to say whether or not there is a real conflict of interest on El_C's part, but there is apparently at least a perceived COI. I think it is fine for admins to have strong political views, and to participate in discussions and articles that they are interested in. But they need to be careful to avoid using their admin tools (or threatening to) in situations that leave them open to the allegation of a COI. If a violation is beyond the pale, and the action would be unquestionably correct, that is one thing. But if there is any kind of "call" to make, and it involves a topic or users who the admin could be perceived to have a COI with, the admin should seek another uninvolved admin to take the action. I can think of a half dozen admins who generally disagree with me on political and social issues, but that I would trust to make the right call on a behavioral issue with a user. They might not do what I wanted them to do, but their involvement would certainly nudge the conflict in a more positive direction. It's a good policy to follow. It not only protects the users from possibly biased action against them, it protects the admin from COI charges, and protects the image of the project as viewed from outside. I think the suggestion of El_C mentoring is a good one. - Crockspot 23:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• I find it very hard to take Sceptre's complaint in good faith. "Probably what got El_C annoyed was me removing a thread on Anonimu's talk ... wasn't that what Anonimu wanted, for a clean talk page?" You were helping Anonimu clean his page, Sceptre..? Please don't flaunt absurdity. I've a good mind to remove these frivolities from ANI, especially after reviewing your ruleslawyering responses to El C on your page (here it is before you removed the section in question). I too urge you to cease doing anything else that is Anonimu-related, and will consider blocking you if you persist. Since you would like to see a basis in codified policy, please review Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and Wikipedia is not a battleground. Bishonen | talk 23:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC).

  Your response isn't in good faith either. What I said came off in a bad tone, and that's because I'm a bit annoyed. I was seriously removing them to save Anonimu an edit - he wasn't going to read them anyway. Besides, for the fourth time I've said this "nazi sympathiser" and "hate group" are personal attacks regardless of veracity. WP:ENC and WP:BATTLE applies, frankly, more to him than me - in every single conflict with him, I've at given policies and guidelines as my reasoning. I'll admit I don't like Anonimu, yes, but I'm not reverting every edit of his, I'm only reverting inappropriate edits by him. Will ^(talk) 23:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and the thing I said about a unilateral demand sticks - Only those delegated authority (ArbCom, Foundation) should exercise it - the sysop flag allows you to block, delete, protect, and automatically rollback, not give you authority. An admin can use the tools to follow process, policies, guidelines, and a few essays - for example, a persistent POV pusher on an article will be blocked to prevent the POV, a heavily vandalised page will be semi-protected to prevent the vandalism, etc, etc. An admin can't say to a user acting in good faith that they'll punish them if they do something the admin doesn't like without good reason. Such a decision is very controversial, and should be left to the community to decide whether it's appropriate. Will ^(talk) 00:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It's clear you have an axe to grind against this user and that your efforts have been wholly one-sided (so much so that you have not even remotely touched on this point). If you continue following him around you will be blocked for disruption. You may appeal to the Arbitration Committee or to any "paid foundation employee" once such a block expires. I have nothing further to add to that. El_C 02:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

El_C would you mind providing some examples of Will harassing or following Anonimu? The WP:AIV diff by itself doesn't really seem as bad as you are making out to be. (Which is why I'm asking what you know that those of us unfamiliar with this issue don't which makes you sure Will is out to get Anonimu?) Anynobody 05:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

ANOTHER CONTROVERSY CAUSED BY EL_C

I made a neutral comment on WP:AN and EL-C reverted it. Why is he so threatened by such a benign comment. It concerned TJSpyke where it was proposed to unban him and force multiple confessions from him. I said that the user should make promises to behave but that forced confessions shouldn't be required.

What is the fuss about this.

Like the original poster of this thread, who said that they expect to be blocked, I think I will be blocked unfairly just for making an innocent statement which no man with logical beliefs should feel challenged. This is why I came to Canada, so that I could speak my mind unlike in some countries. SanjayPatelofCanada 05:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: if El_C and other admin read this, say ok, and move on without the desire to retaliate and inflict pain, this will show that they are men of good character. El_C, you can redeem yourself by doing just that. SanjayPatelofCanada 05:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks by xl five lx (talk · contribs)

I'd appreciate input from other admins on this issue, as I'm too wrapped up in it myself to proceed. Around August 4, there was a dispute on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships about a style issue. A new user, xl five lx (talk · contribs), made a personal attack against Benea (talk · contribs). I warned him, and Benea replied on WP:SHIPS. Benea also posted on my talk page about it; he was bothered by the attack. The situation between the two of them got diffused into a series of good-natured barbs.

However, xl five lx also e-mailed me. He was verbally abusive in the e-mail exchange, eventually stating "You are a liar as well as a pathetic little punk," and "Good luck in life. You'll need it - pussy." I warned him again on his talk page, as I consider personal attacks using the "E-mail this user" button to be essentially personal attacks on Wikipedia, and hadn't had any problems since. I've tried to avoid dealing with him, but I am a very active member of WP:SHIPS and we participate in the same discussions. Today, xl five lx posted this; I'm posting here asking for another admin to please have a look. TomTheHand 22:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I warned him again (level 4 NPA plus nice long verbose explanation). I'll keep an eye on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships as well. Georgewilliamherbert 22:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Mass redirect of Metroid-based articles

Judgesurreal777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)has taken it upon himself to redirect almost every article pertaining to the Metroid series to the specific game they are featured in with the edit summary 'article is nothing but plot regurgitation'. I've reverted the articles back and messaged him concerning that there doesn't appear to be any sort of consensus to him doing this. I'm not sure if my message could be construed as being rude or not, so I'd just like an idea if I did the right thing here? HalfShadow 22:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe this was brought up on the video game project. TTN 22:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, redirecting them to the games is a bad idea, and they should be redirected to at least lists. Complete obliteration of the content is bad, too Metroid (series) doesn't give me enough context into what Zebes is - just that Samus visits and blows it up twice, which is not enough to be descriptive (and I'm a mergist/deletionist). Will ^(talk) 22:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:POINT by 2day old user

(note: similar topic below) Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 01:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC) Johnjoecavanagh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Johnjoecavanagh seems to be actively WP:CANVASS a pettition link ^[112] on project and talkpages as aresult of "his" article (Redboy) beig deleted. Examples such as this [113], are evident in his contribs. Obvious attempt to disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point.--Hu12 23:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Biggspowd (talk · contribs) is back as an IP sockpuppet

You may remember this incident from the other day. [114], [115]. Well, this person is now back, editing under an IP address as a sock, even though he is currently blocked [116]. Have a look at his general list of contributions [117], and then take a look at these edits where he's back on that weird tangent of removing any mention of smoking related deaths from people's biographies [118], [119]. Then, compare the way the IP adds prod tags to things [120] compared with the User who is currently still blocked for a week. [121]. As I suspected would happen, this person has NOT retired, they have simply begun evading their weeklong block by editing as an IP. WP:DUCK. Please indef block the User and softblock the IP? The Parsnip! 23:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin's sockpuppet(s)

Since Thatcher has acted on my "inclination" [122] and re-opened the discussion, let me give the following preamble. As Thatcher notes below the Arbitration Committee is discussing the issues involved here, and as El_C points out below out the ArbCom mailing list is available to any editor who wants to make their views known to the Committee more privately. We welcome and encourage any thoughts any editor might have on these issue. But we should all understand that the issues involved here are not solely for the ArbCom to decide. In most respects, it is ultimately the community which has the responsibility of deciding how things work around here. And that deciding is generally best done on-Wiki. To that end discussions like this can be helpful, however we need to conduct any discussions with great care. SlimVirgin and Jayjg are long-time well respected editors who have made many valuable contributions to our encyclopedia. They deserve to be treated with generous assumptions of good faith and respect.

For completeness sake I've restored the following two comments which were dleted by Thatcher when he re-opened the discussion:

Folks, the Arbitration Committee's mailing list is that-a-way. Those who wish for drama and public spectacle, there are plenty of off-wiki venues. El_C 03:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's chill out for a bit. ArbCom knows about both allegations (sockpuppets and misuse of oversight). This is not going to be solved immediately, and failure to solve it immediately and publicly does not automatically mean there will be a coverup. Assuming that we don't actually want to run SlimVirgin or Jayjg off the project, let's take a break on this and let the people we elected to be responsible for this sort of thing talk about it for a while. Hopefully they will make a public statement; in the meantime, archive pretty please? Thatcher131 04:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Paul August ☎ 06:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I'll present this news briefly, without much editorializing. I'll leave it up to others to figure out what this all means, and what our response should be to this abuse of our trust. Well-known administrator SlimVirgin has been caught red-handed (evidence). She used a sockpuppet by the name of Sweet Blue Water to sway discussion on a 9/11 article (no conspiracy theories please). I have blocked the sock indefinitely, per standard practice for abusive sockpuppets. I have not blocked SlimVirgin because this incident took place awhile ago. There are some things we do not know, such as: is SlimVirgin still using sockpuppets? If so, what should we do about it? More generally, as a community, how we should we respond to these actions taken by one of our own administrators? --Cyde Weys 00:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

This user hasnt made any edits[123]. Do we know Slim is using/has used socks? cos its news to me and these are serious accusations without even a diff to back them up re a highly respected admin. I suggest you give us some solid evidence or withdraw your complaint, SqueakBox 00:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

That's because Mr. Weys made a typo. He meant just "Sweet Blue Water" -- [124]. MessedRocker (talk) 00:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

SqueakBox, read the attached page. It's obviously written by a person with an axe to grind.. but the evidence is compelling.--Gmaxwell 00:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that is Sweet Blue Water (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I await (a) the check user and (b) the evidence. To be honest if this were true its a case for arbcom at the least, we cant dse Slim blocked on the basis of an AM/I report, SqueakBox 00:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Cyde, It's a good think that you didn't block Sarah: the edits were two years ago. If it's all true but there isn't any evidence of more recent misdeeds, then so what? We've all made bad judgment calls.

What is a little more disappointing is the overuse/misuse of oversight. I pointed out that the early uses of oversight by Jay were questionable which resulted in Brion temporally removing his permission until it was investigated. I think arbcom eventually decided the oversights were okay, and in any case he was given the permission back... Seeing the edits there I can see how they could be argued to be personally identifiable, which is something I couldn't figure out when I first complained about the possible overuse of oversight because I was unaware of the IP and the other account. But still it seems that the ultimate decision to allow Jay to aggressively oversight Sarah's edits was an error. Ultimately it did nothing to improve her privacy, it may have hidden some abusive actions, and it has called our honesty into question. --Gmaxwell 00:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I was going to remove this thread thinking it was just a random editor with a grudge. Seeing as it's Cyde, I relented. I think good faith should be applied and it should be remembered that Shaw is a big ISP. That, and that was two years ago, so I think we should assume that she's not doing it now (but she may and probably has in the past) Will ^(talk) 00:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but I didn't make any bad judgment calls that were nearly as egregious as abusing sockpuppets. I don't think there is a "statute of limitations" on abusive sockpuppetry. I think it speaks directly to one's character. Now maybe if I see an apology to the community my stance might be softened a little bit. --Cyde Weys 00:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

That's kind of fucked up to say, Cyde. Wikipedia is neutral, and shouldn't really care if someone is sorry or not, only that they are not doing it anymore. -- Ned Scott 06:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

(looking through the edits) The claim that there was 3RR on the Tsunami edits is incorrect; there were two very different edits, and only two of them; even if it's same account or sockpuppetry it wasn't abusive. (Still looking at the rest). Georgewilliamherbert 00:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I'm not working off the old oversight-free dataset, but Judd Bagley didn't provide specifics on what got oversighted in there. Georgewilliamherbert 00:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

There were two votes, one from each account (plus misc comments from SV) on the Featured Article Candidates discussion. That would be a violation of WP:SOCK if the two accounts are in fact the same person. (still reviewing the other 3) Georgewilliamherbert 01:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The (non-oversighted) edits by both accounts to September 11, 2001 attacks were essentially just copyedit cleanups; the one edit by Sweet Blue Water was a vandal revert of a claim that a US fighter jet shot down TWA Flight 93. That claim was added by an IP and then taken out by SBW immediately. None of the edits appear to be content/controversial for several days on either side, and the combination of them is still just maintenance work. Nothing wrong here. Georgewilliamherbert 01:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk page edit is commenting to that IP about it. Nothing wrong there. Georgewilliamherbert 01:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

...and the SBW edit to British English is related to but not identical to any edits SV was making prior to SBW editing. Definitely no 3RR; time spread out over roughly a week. No sign of abuse with this, either.

• Comment - Only 1 of these Sweet Blue Water edits appears to actually meet our WP:SOCK abusive sockpuppetry definition, or any other reasonable definition of abuse. The vote is, if SBW == SV, a violation. The others don't meet any of the SOCK criteria for abuse. Georgewilliamherbert 01:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As to the accuracy of the allegation, I'm not going to determine whether I believe this based on the evidence from some website I've never heard of. I'm going to do it based on things right here on the wiki, like a familiar quotation. I think I've seen it before. Picaroon (t) 00:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

That sort of activity is only "abuse" if the peons do it... if a powerful clique member like Slim does it, it's perfectly fine, and the use of oversight by her friends to cover it up is also perfectly fine... but anybody who exposes it and tries to tell anybody is engaging in personal attacks and running an Attack Site. That's the way things work around here. *Dan T.* 00:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

(MEC)I'm concerned by the sockpuppetry, but that was years ago, and in the absence of new problems we generally forgive such mistakes after such a long time. (Not that we shouldn't look closely for new evidence.) I am a bit concerned now by an odd pattern I noticed in discussion at WT:NOP, where SlimVirgin vehemently asserted as fact that there were indeed people who were operating more than one admin account, but declined to elaborate or provide evidence even upon being asked repeatedly how she possibly could be so sure. However, I was also very concerned to notice that she had not been notified of this discussion, and have corrected that. I certainly believe she has every right to tell her side of the story here. However, aside from that, I am very concerned to see that type of use of oversight. Almost all of us have accidentally edited while logged out at some point or another in a way which makes clear who it was. I would bet you that if the vast majority of editors in that situation requested oversight of that mistake they would be declined. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Could we CheckUser SlimVirgin, or would that be fishing? (Come up with an answer independent of the fact that this is SlimVirgin.) MessedRocker (talk) 00:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If the alleged sockpuppetry was two years ago, what would be the point? Is there any legitimate reason to punish someone for something from so long ago? --B 00:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The point of the CheckUser would be to see if she is still doing it. MessedRocker (talk) 00:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

There are legitimate uses of socks, and if I took as much sustained abuse as she did, I would use them too for certain classes of edits. - Crockspot 00:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Including double voting? Please, lets not make the mistake of treating this as no big deal. This is a very serious charge and it is meticulously documented. It needs to be addressed, not swept under the rug. ATren 01:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering that this is coming from an off-wiki blog, and as GWH has already found one untruthful spin, and this is going on three years ago, I am not all agog. - Crockspot 00:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

an objective look at the details given above paints a pretty clear picture - but the age of the edits, and a dollop of common sense might just mean that this doesn't matter that much. I think the damage of the drama of this discussion is greater than any benefit to wikipedia - i think we're in danger of being indulgent to hand wave. If Slim used a sock a couple of years ago, it doesn't matter much to me.... Purples 00:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It's more evidence, as if any were needed, of the perniciousness of the idiotic pseudo-policy about linking to so-called "attack sites" that a Clique Member is trying frantically to get rid of the above link with significant evidence in this case. *Dan T.* 00:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Lay off it Dan. There is no need for the histrionics here. No one supports a genuine abuse of oversight... even for a card carrying cabalist like Sarah. She does deserve our defense against trolls who are out to harm her, but defense doesn't extend to misleading the public or lying. We'll get it all sorted out. There is no need for a witch hunt on any side of this. The evidence presented clearly shows a privacy interest in using oversight against the evidence connecting the accounts, because her IP was disclosed. It appears that the end result, however, wasn't good.--Gmaxwell 01:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Great, an edit war. The link should not be posted on this page. It attacks at least two individuals. If you really want to read it, get it out of the history. - Crockspot 01:03, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous, that link is necessary for the discussion: Remember that WP:BADSITES IS NOT POLICY. Viridae^Talk 01:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPA#External links is a core policy. - Crockspot 01:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Thios isnt a personal attack, as is QUITE clear, so that policy doesn't apply. Viridae^Talk 01:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The blog was an attack on two individuals. I see there is a different link, which may not be an attack. - Crockspot 01:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It was not however being used to attack someone, it was being used as evidence in a discussion, how are you missing the distinction? How about I put it a bit more clearly for you: This thread =/= personal attack. Questionable link == needed for the non personal attack thread. Use of link =/= personal attack. NPA =/= applicable. Comprende? Viridae^Talk 01:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The evidence was presented in the form of a personal attack, with commentary that has been proven to be less than accurate. You'll notice that the blog is not linked above any more. I have no problem with raw evidence. - Crockspot 01:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It was presented in the same way the current link is presenting it, + commentary. And who cares? It was the evidence that it was beind used for? Cyde did not start this thread to try and attack anyone, he was using the link as evidence. Any way it is pointless arguing about this any further, the original link is removed, but the evidence stays the same. I am glad you are "allowing" allowing this one, because the consensus was quite clearly not in your favour (that it was a personal attack) and you had way blown 3rr. Viridae^Talk 02:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

How is evidence of sockpuppetry a "personal attack"? *Dan T.* 01:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The new link is probably fine. The first blog link was a personal attack on SV and JJG. - Crockspot 01:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It had a few paragraphs of criticism along with the evidence... so is criticism a "personal attack" now? *Dan T.* 01:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As the editor who initially forked the contested POV "attack sites" content from BADSITES over to WP:NPA: [125], I must say I do regret being the one responsible for extending that controversy beyond its reasonable life. Seems if we had left it at BADSITES, it may have been killed entirely. One of my lasting "gifts" to WP, I suppose. It seemed like a good idea at the time. When I did it I thought it would be seen as clearly inconsistent with the other, more rationally worded material already on NPA, and an attempt would be made to either kill it or move it into compliance with the rest of the policy. No such luck. Oh well. My apologies to all who've fussed over or suffered over this, and to others I hope they enjoy their sense of empowerment.—AL ^FOCUS! 02:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The contributions of Sweet Blue Water (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) shows that the user has very few edits and does not engage in edit-warring (which is the main purpose of creating sockpuppets). In fact, most of the edits are to the user's own page. So, I think this is an overally very minor case letting aside that it is from two years ago. This was all said assuming that Sweet Blue Water is SlimVirgin. --Aminz 01:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but from what I see, the evidence is shaky at best. It says on there that the edit was made by a dynamic IP. Even though it was on the same ranges SlimVirgin used, we have no proof it was her on there. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 01:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

My comment was based on the assumption that they are the same person and mentioned that even then, it seems minor. --Aminz 01:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Nwwaew - he says he knows only the first four numbers of Slim's IP - and yet he would obviously assume any ip with those first four numbers would be Slim - and that IP is the only tool used to draw Slim to Sweet Blue ... I think the case isn't certain enough to do anything - and is too far in the past to do a checkuser.--danielfolsom 01:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Not just the ip - common editing - editing the same articles, and use of the same poem in their respective userpages. (look up a bit).Viridae^Talk 01:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

But again, have we got proof it was the same person editing? For all we know, it could be an impersonator setting up SlimVirgin. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 01:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Most proof in sockpuppet cases is circumstantial - as is this. A checkuser probobly would have come back as Plausible - or whatever language they use, given we know they edit from the same IP range. Viridae^Talk 01:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

In this case the evidence isn't the author of the document 'knowing' the IP.. the evidence is the content of the now oversighted edits. --Gmaxwell 01:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

But the biggest question is: who cares? SlimVirgin has been a great editor for a while - and I don't think anyone in their right mind is about to propose doing a checkuser and blocking him/her for something (s)he did in his/her (i hate how there's not a non-gender specific third person singular pronoun) first year.--danielfolsom 01:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but the involvement of oversight is a major concern it appears that oversight was unintentionally used in a manner which covered up some less than perfect activities. --Gmaxwell 01:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If that off-site post is correct, how did the history of those deleted edits make their way off Wikipedia and onto that Web site? I thought only an admin had the tools to do that. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 01:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

They found an old database dump from prior to the edits being oversighted, (and actually much prior to that, since they were deleted months before being oversighted). --Gmaxwell —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 01:47, August 25, 2007 (UTC).

(ec)Not deleted, oversighted. Its from a database dump from before the oversighting and compared to a dump post oversighting. Viridae^Talk 01:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Please re-read my comment. Many (all?) of the oversighted edits in question were deleted months before we had oversight. Once we got oversight they were deleted. As a result they were not in the last dump right before oversight. If you'd like a copy to look for yourself I can give you that. They used an even older dump from before the edits were deleted. I don't have a copy of that. --Gmaxwell 01:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but who did the deleting? Wer know who he oversighting was done by, who did the deleting? Viridae^Talk 01:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Based on this bit of precedent, I would have assumed Musical Linguist did the deleting, but in the case of the IP edits in question, it doesn't appear to have been her. --Jim Larry 02:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Hm. I didn't look for the IPs. I looked for the Slimv edits ages ago right when they were oversighted because I was trying to figure out if the oversight tool was being overused. I'll see if I have the IP edits. --Gmaxwell 02:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Slim wasn't even an admin in 2004. All this is insignificant ancient history. I really don't think we should desysop someone for something done before they were a sysop.Rlevse 02:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As with many scandals, the attempts to cover it up are of greater concern than the original act itself. *Dan T.* 02:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If there have been attempts to cover this up, especially with oversight privileges, then this should probably go to the ArbCom for further review. --Coredesat 02:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Rlevse, This happened the year before Slim became an admin. I think if there is anything to look at here, the focus should be on issues relating to use of oversight, not whether or not someone used a sock two years ago. Sarah 02:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

A lot of what I've read in this section is highly hypocritical. – Chacor 02:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Response

I'm disappointed that Cyde didn't e-mail me to ask me about this before posting publicly. I won't give a detailed response here, partly for reasons of privacy and partly because I'm not willing to make WordBomb's day for him. I'm happy to give a full explanation to every Wikipedian I know and trust who e-mails me asking for one. And please do e-mail if you want to know more; I definitely won't take it as an accusation. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Response to the Response

Apologies if this sounds harsh, SV.. but private explanations to people you know and trust aren't really conducive to fixing this issue, which is what we all want. Anything that smacks of secrecy and hiding just fuels the people attacking you. All of us probably aren't looking for long explanations or anything similar, just the answer to. "Did you use the account mentioned above", and "Have you used any account other then your main one to edit Wikipedia in any way". Thank you for considering my request. SirFozzie 02:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

In SV's defense, she in a situation that very few other Wikipedian's are in (or can even fully appreciate) and thus I think we should permit her the courtesy of offering her account in privacy, at least in the first instance. She knows, and I'm sure trusts, a great number of Wikipedians, not all of whom are in the oft alleged cabal. Rockpocket 02:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I can understand that, Rockpocket, but I really think it doesn't help the situation that we're in for it to be hidden from the public eye. A quote from Louis Brandeis comes to mind. The best way to prevent the situation is to stop it from the get-go, in my eye. *shrugs* figured I'd at least make the request. SirFozzie 02:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

SirFozzie, all I can do is e-mail you the explanation. You may or may not find it sufficient, but I think you will. I'm still looking at the diffs myself, but I'll send something to you this evening. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Given this happened years ago and the passing of more recent events such as the recent DB attempt at outing I endorse that she has no case to answer here and remains one of our best admins (being controversial adds to that IMHO), SqueakBox 02:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As it stands it looks like the accusations that oversight has been used to hide abusive behavior may have some degree of merit. Although Sarah's actions are old enough to be uninteresting, as Dan pointed out above, the possible appearance of coverup is very interesting and important and should be fully resolved. We can do the most to hurt the trolls by making sure we're so far above board that there is nothing sane to criticize us for. --Gmaxwell 02:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia Review, on WP:ANI. It's difficult to envision this place sinking any lower, but expect the unexpected. El_C 02:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there anything that anyone would like to accomplish here? If not, I suggest marking it resolved/closed. Even if the "allegations" are true, I don't think anyone would seriously suggest taking any kind of punitive preventative action against SV based on something so old. So if there's nothing here other than drama ... --B 02:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

We need to resolve if oversight was actually used to hide embarrassing edits. If so we need to resolve if this was an intentional abuse, or accidental careless. We need to determine the Arbitration committee has violated our trust by endorsing these actions, tacitly or explicitly. ... and in order to get there I think we need to know the truth about the suspected sock. If it's true, we can forgive, and move on to the important issues... before they manage to end up in the press. --Gmaxwell 02:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that if oversight was used incorrectly, that's a serious abuse ... but since very few people have access to those records, there is nothing that can be decided here. 99% of us have no ability to investigate it. --B 02:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If the allegations are true, then it will be, at least to me, a severe breach of trust that Wikipedia places in its admins, and I would be in the forefront of any folks calling for action to be taken. Not to mention that the hurried closure/archiving would do more to convince folks that there IS fire to this smoke then anything. SirFozzie 02:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

What action would you recommend? And why does everyone keep saying admins - do all admins have oversight abilities?--danielfolsom 02:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's like checkuser, only a few can do it. Georgewilliamherbert 02:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok - so it's not some admin conspiracy - everyone turn down your cabal sirens. Even if the edits were not honestly erased (which is a possibility) - it looks like an isolated event from two years ago. I just don't see this going anywhere.--danielfolsom 02:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

There are two separate issues. The only thing that anyone outside of a very small number of users with oversight privileges can make any kind of speculation/determination about is whether SlimVirgin engaged in abusive sockpuppetry. That's a separate issue from whether or not someone improperly oversighted her edits. In the case of the former, nobody is seriously contemplating punishing her so there's nothing to discuss. In the case of the latter - unquestionably a very serious issue that should be dealt with decisively, we have no ability to make a determination and need to rely on those who have access to the logs to tell us what the determination is ... so again, there is nothing to discuss here. --B 02:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Except it's already been before Arbcom and it appears that they failed us. When oversight was first introduced the logs were public. I noticed Jayjg's mass over-sighting of seemingly harmless edits like spelling corrections with an summary of "pi". I brought the issue up with Brion, who thought it looked odd so he temporally removed oversight from Jayjg. [126]. Arbcom looked at the issue, and apparently decided that it was all okay. Jay's access was restored, the revisions stayed oversighted, and he continued mass over-sighting old edits like these. I trusted then. Having seen the evidence I think it would be unwise to extend the same trust again. --Gmaxwell 03:03, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Best not to assume malice, I suspect; nobody but the obsessive had the time or inclination to pore through things and find these apparent connections. I can't speak for other arbitrators, but I did examine (some of) these oversights and saw nothing that indicated sockpuppetry. I found the concern for secrecy possibly excessive but justified in terms of the abuse SlimVirgin was on the receiving end of. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 03:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments

I make no comments about the reliability of the allegations, but want to state strongly that Cyde's handling of this has been extremely inappropriate and irresponsible. Although I have forgotten the names of the two accounts, I saw a few months ago that some administrator was caught sockpuppeting through some user check, and that the ArbCom several times asked him to email them. When he refused to provide any explanation in private, he was desysopped, and I think the ArbCom gave an explanation to the community. But he was first afforded the chance to explain himself privately to the Committee. Similarly, I believe there was some case last year where some administrator unprotected a page and then edited it with a sockpuppet, and as far as I know (though I'm not aware of the full details), he was given ample opportunity to discuss the matter privately with the committee before the community was made aware of the matter. I am sure there have been other, similar cases; I am not aware of any case where an administrator has been discovered to be using sockpuppets, and has been immediately blocked, and the offence publicised, with no effort to deal with the matter privately first.

If Cyde had credible evidence of serious wrongdoing from SlimVirgin from two years back, he should have brought the matter privately to the attention of Jimbo and the Arbitration Committee. (It will not be surprising if they were already aware of it, and if they were already discussing the matter privately with SlimVirgin.) Or he should at least have emailed her to ask for an explanation, taking it privately to the ArbCom if she failed to provide an explanation that he found reasonable.

The fact that the evidence comes from one whose credibility is dubious, that it was a dynamic IP, that people can share IPs, and that the account had stopped editing over around two years ago, were all indications that there was no urgency in blocking. And since other administrators who have been found guilty of wrongdoing were afforded the dignity of a chance to explain themselves privately to ArbCom before being publicly humiliated, on what grounds did Cyde decide that SlimVirgin was deserving of less sensitivity and discretion?

Even if we didn't have a precedent of allowing established and respected editors suspected of some wrongdoing a chance to explain themselves privately before taking action, a little bit of humility would have told Cyde that he should wait and discuss it privately with someone more senior. Blocking immediately, without checking to see if this dynamic IP could possibly have been used by someone else, and then dramatically announcing here that she had been "caught red handed", as well as linking to a site that specialises in violating the privacy of our editors (and harvesting their IPs in an effort to trace their locations), and edit warring to keep that link, showed an appalling irresponsibility, immaturity, and insensitivity. And that applies regardless of whether SlimVirgin is innocent or guilty. This thread should never have been started. Similar cases have always been dealt with discreetly, with the ArbCom making an announcement only at the end of their investigations, if they found it appropriate to make one at all. ElinorD (talk) 02:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea the Sarah was blocked? She wasn't. It would be foolish to block her now, and that seems to be the consensus here.

At this point it appears that my error in trusting the judgment of Arbcom to review the initial mass over-sighting of Jay was an error. Virtually every time I've worked with arbcom to quietly resolve an issue their response has been ultimately disappointing. --Gmaxwell 02:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Translation: Let the clique "resolve" the issue by secret back-room discussions ending in shoving the whole thing under the rug. It's only non-clique-connected peons that get publicly humiliated for their real or imagined offenses. *Dan T.* 02:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

While I STRONGLY disagree with the words above, I do agree with the spirit of what dtobias's is aaying. This is something that needs to be out in the open, for the good of Wikipedia (and before you ask, "How would you feel if YOU were under the same microscope".. I am already listed on HiveMind, with all my personal info posted, which I'm not exactly happy about, but figure there's not much I can do about it.. (I do find it funny they have a wrong picture for me, however). SirFozzie 03:03, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I was on Brandt's (old) Hivemind page too, and on one of Jeff Merkey's attack pages at one point. I responded by laughing at those guys, not by trying to suppress all mention of them. *Dan T.* 03:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• Archive I think it would be best if perceived oversight misuse was is brought before Arb. The sockpuppet issue, however, is stale. Any action on that now, would be punitive. I would suggest appropriately placing the archive templates here. Regards, Navou ^banter 02:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• I oppose. In my mind the only real risk here is that this material somewhat validates the star-chamber accusations about the use of oversight. We can't solve justified accusations of secrecy and coverups by resolving matters in secret. --Gmaxwell 03:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I should have been clearer. I was referring to this block. An account that hasn't edited for about two years does not need to be blocked so urgently that there's no time for private discussion with the suspect or the ArbCom. The evidence for the sockpuppetry seems to be that a dynamic IP which Slim is believed (okay, I'll say "known") to have used on a small number of occasions made an answer to a question which had been asked of Sweet Blue Water. It's certainly not conclusive. And the indelible block log mentions Slim, and accuses her of abuse. ElinorD (talk) 03:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Elinor here. The blocking of an account that was inactive for 2 years under relatively shady evidence was done a bit haphazardly. — Moe ε 03:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why El insists on closing a live discussion and points editors off Wikipedia (the ArbCom mailing list) to talk about an on-Wiki problem. RxS 03:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

What is there that can be accomplished? Even if we presuppose that Jayjg's oversights were abusive and that Arbcom is engaging in a conspiracy to ignore them, what would we be able to do here, other than sound off our righteous indignation? I have nothing but respect for Gmaxwell, but I don't see what there is that we have the power to do here. --B 03:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If the issue involves Oversight, there is nothing us regular admins can practically do about it. If there is to be any investigation into misuse of oversight, it needs to be done on a higher level, either ArbCom or the Foundation directly. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 04:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

(EC) Well, any change starts with sounding off righteous indignation. Right now, I don't even know if there's cause for that. I'll ask SV for what she has to say, as I do like to hear both sides of the story, and her case is an exceptional one. If it's obvious from what she says that things aren't what they seem, and no wrong has been done, I'll shut my mouth. But really, what does anyone do on ANI but express indignation, righteous or otherwise? That's how things get brought to light and hashed out. But let's say at some point an Arbitrator, or even several of them, were involved in deliberate wrongdoing. Well, there are higher authorities than the ArbCom, and getting them involved would start with widespread expression of righteous indignation. We don't need any back-room crap going on. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:11, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe nothing, but I'm not crazy about a single editor closing a section when it's live and there's an objection. If more editors feel the same way then close away. Closing such a high profile section should be a little more consensual, that's all. RxS 04:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the section should have been closed but the closing note was needlessly hostile [127] as was the response on SirFozzie's talk page following the short revert war on here over the close. [128]--Jersey Devil 04:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

ElinorD was guilty of the understatement of the year when she said that the credibility of the source of this allegation is "in doubt." For the record, SlimVirgin was targeted by the Director of Communications of an Internet company that doesn't like the way its article is being handled, and blames Slim.

This person has gotten a lot of publicity, and recently had the charming distinction of harassing a teenager that he didn't like. He did that right here on Wikipedia. The teenager operates an AOL blog that criticized his company.

Earlier he targeted a mortgage banker who said tewwible blue-meaan things about his boss man! That was publicized in the NY Post. He has also bestowed all kinds of marvelous publicity on his company in the New York Times and Bloomberg. The latter devoted an entire article to his "slimy strategy."

Just so you know. I mean, I don't want to spoil the fun, but if you are going to spread excrement you might as well know where it came from. Anyone who cares can email me for links to some of the publicity this professional p.r. man has bestowed upon his company. Oh and I almost forgot to mention that he was hired by his company to run a wiki in competition with Wikipedia.--Mantanmoreland 04:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments Mark 2

By request of Paul August, who believes that civil discussion is beneficial, I have reverted my previous close of this topic. In the spirit of civil discourse, I offer the following comments:

1. A two year old instance of sock puppetry on one topic over a span of a day or two is no big deal.
2. SlimVirgin truly is the target of viscious stalkers, one of whom may have been responsible for this little piece of detective work. It is right and good to take reasonable steps to protect editors and admins' privacy.
3. Oversighting Slim's accidental use of her IP address had the additional effect of oversighting evidence of minor sockpuppetry, making it look like a coverup when there probably wasn't one. Sadly, this case proves that even oversight is not perfect privacy protection, and when an editor accidentally gives away their IP, recalling that error is like trying to stuff the smoke back into a lit match.
4. Overly aggressive use of oversight by Jayjg was brought up privately as an issue when oversight was first instituted, but the concerns were apparently dismissed. This should be looked into again.
5. Oversight is a powerful tool with no documented oversight of its use. Checkuser has a log so that other checkusers can see if someone is running abusive checks, and checkuser has an ombudsman directly answerable to the Foundation. Oversight has neither, because who would object to hiding information? But some people do object to hiding information, so it is important to have some mechanism for Oversighters to check each other's work (either a log or the ability to see oversighted edits), and a mechanism to deal with possible abuse, and to document these mechanisms (although by it's nature it can't be transparent).

I hope for some public and reasonably (given the concerns above) transparent resolution to this situation. Not immediately, surely, but soonish. Thatcher131 05:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Please see the preamble I've added to the beginning of this discussion. Paul August ☎ 06:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there a way to ensure oversight isn't abused (not that it has been)? If so, then it needs to be implemented, now.--MONGO 05:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Further, I concur...we are discussing edits made long before Slim became an admin even and they were very few, so this seems to be little more than a smear campaign overall.--MONGO 05:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

For anyone unaware of this, there is a log—visible only to those with the oversight permission, obviously—that contains a record of all oversight actions and provides access to the content of all oversighted revisions. Kirill 05:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, then if there are ways for those granted oversight ability to check each other, then that seems to be adequate. I did only think that developers had this ability, so thanks for the clarification.--MONGO 05:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: to MONGO, the oversight policy says stewards can remove the flag for abuse, but the stewards don't have oversight, so how would they know? Or Arbcom can remove the flag.

Re: to Kirill, unless we non-oversighters spot something at just the right time, we have no idea oversight was ever used. Do you routinely check each other? Is oversight ever used in situations where the oversighter should not delete due to some kind of involvement? Thatcher131 05:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As a practical matter, stewards can give themselves any flag they need. Kirill 06:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher, one point needs to be made crystal clear. Re your point two ("may have been responsible") this piece of so-called detective work was the product of one of the most vicious stalkers ever to hit Wikipedia. There is no doubt about it, as it is admitted proudly, and his work is (lately) signed with his name. This is not some Internet hijinks but a real-world smear campaign. Wikipedia is just one of many venues for his professional p.r. work. --Mantanmoreland 05:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Important but not grounds to wish the whole thing away. If the village bully tells you your fly is open and you feel a draft in your boxers, better check your zipper anyway. The basic facts are confirmed by User:Gmaxwell who was concerned months ago about possible overly aggressive use of oversight. Frankly, this shit was going to hit the fan sooner or later. If, for example, SlimVirgin had admitted what the trolls have alleged all along, all but the trolls would have seen how minor and pointless it really was. Or, SlimVirgin could have abandoned the account in 2004 when she realized she had exposed her IP. Instead there has been a 3 year campaign to hide something which, due to google caches and data dumps, could never really be hidden, giving the appearance of a coverup that was much bigger than the underlying alleged conflict of interest ever should have been. I don't begrudge Slim's decision to try and keep her good name and protect her privacy, but like I said above, it was like trying to stuff the smoke back into a match. Thatcher131 05:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I think I understand that your concern is that, about the only people who use oversight and watch it are basically the arbitrators and a few former ones...but that is more than 20 people. So is this a concern that these folks also need to be watched and if the stewarts and developers can't or won't, then who will?--MONGO 05:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but this is totally ridiculous. The word "witchhunt" comes to mind. For whatever reason, SlimVirgin is a major target on Wikipedia. She always has been. This was 2 years ago. If she was still using socks, I'd see the arguments here, but there is no evidence that she is. The thing is. People make mistakes. As long as she isn't using them now, I just don't see the issue here. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 05:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me say that I have made more than one sockpuppeteer furious at me, and I have left enough clues that a determined person could figure out who I am. The first phone call or email I get, I'm retired, poof, adios. My respect in the community (if I have any), my admin status, my clean block log--none of that is worth one minute of grief in real life. SlimVirgin felt differently, which is not wrong, but was the more challenging route, and despite the best efforts of many people, seems to have failed. Thatcher131 05:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

(Sorry, edit conflict.) Re your original reply to me, your information and analysis is based on what? Is it based on the operator of a professional smear campaign that has a record and history of providing selective evidence aimed at "proving" that the target of his boss's rage is guilty? Or is it based upon your own independent evaluation of the evidence, after obtaining an explanation from SlimVirgin?

This goes back to ElinorD's comment, which I amplified, the credibility and motives of the professional p.r. man who is behind these allegations. I'll give you an example of the crap this guy produces. He has been attacking me right and left too. His latest thing is that I "work for company X," based upon an IP edit in the middle of some church article I was editing. What he doesn't say is that all the other edits by this same IP involve articles on Polish princes and whatnot that I have never edited. See the edit history here[129], and check out the contribs of this IP [130]. The links I have just provided are the sole basis of an entire "expose'" on his company-financed website.

That is typical of his methods, and knowing this I am struck by the air of unreality of this discussion. If you want to take any action, do it on the basis of everything but what this sleazeball puts on his company-financed website. That is why it was unfortunate that this AN/I was commenced. AN/Is should not be commenced upon such a foundation. --Mantanmoreland 05:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The messenger may be foul but the message is apparently accurate. I can not speak for User:Gmaxwell but I can summarize what he told me and what he wrote above. He also has a dump of Wikipedia from before oversight and it too shows the same deleted and oversighted edits as the blogger reported. Gmaxwell's dump is different in that he can not see the content of the edits, but he confirmed that the times and users/IPs are as claimed. Gmaxwell also complained to the lead developer Brion Vibber about Jayjg's use of oversight; Brion removed Jayjg's access for two days [131] during which it was apparently discussed by ArbCom and then restored. Thatcher131 06:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

In any case, the Committee is aware of the concerns raised here, and is looking into them. Anyone not satisfied with letting us do that can complain up the ladder; otherwise, please don't rip each others' heads off debating the issue. Kirill 06:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I heartily agree that this AN/I should never have been commenced. But here it is, commenced, and underway for several thousand words. Thatcher, how can you know if what you say is "accurate" without input from the affected editors? In the example that I cited concerning myself, a superficial examination of the edits would say, oh golly Mantanmoreland forgot to sign in and came in as an IP, case closed. But then you look at this IP and you realize that is absurd. Can't you fathom the possibility that something similar is happening here, given the "foul" as you put it nature of the source? This is separate and apart from the moral issue of Wikipedia publicly rending its garments in service of a corporate smear campaign underway in various media.--Mantanmoreland 06:21, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Oversight has logs that are viewable by other oversighters, and that i guess is supposed to be a check/balance against abusive use. However it took a non-oversighter (GWH) comparing pre and post database dumps to uncover the very agressive use of the tool. Perhaps, the logs need to be made availible to a wider range of people: (ie admins). I'm not sure what they show now, but I am suggesting something like: Aaction performed by, date and time, on what page and that is all. This would make large scale use of a tool which is supposed to have very limited uses far easier to discover. I am not suggesting that *anyone* be able to see the contents of the oversighted edits, I am simply suggesting that more eyes on the bare bones logs would give people the ability to raise questions/check for abuse more easily should it be necessary. Viridae^Talk 06:03, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

This would also have the negative effect of drawing additional attention to the edits. Oversight was instituted because one or more admins were apparently distributing deleted content to outside groups, so a log viewable to all admins would almost certainly compromise the usefulness of oversight as a tool. Kirill 06:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Drawing what attention? No one is suggesting admins should be able to see the actual oversighted edits (after all, if they could, oversight would have no more effect than selective revision deletion), but only that something was oversighted. Just like when a page is deleted, a regular editor can't see what was there, but by checking the deletion log, they know something was there, that it was deleted, who deleted it, and a general summary as to why. In this case, the regular editor sees nothing, and the admin sees only "1 revision oversighted by Someonewithoversight: Contained personal info (phone number)." Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand how a more public log would aid in the leaking of information. Since the edits are already hidden from all non-oversights and developers, the knowledge that information was removed from a certain page can't be that compromising, can it? I can't think of anything I'm missing in how data on when who removed revision(s) from where - and why they did it - could have negative effects in the hands of admins. Picaroon (t) 06:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The location of the edit may itself be information that needs to be restricted, for various reasons (some more obvious than others); and if that's removed, we'd just be left with "Oversighter X removed a revision at Time", which doesn't seem particularly useful.

(AFAIK, there was some talk about reimplementing MediaWiki's deletion scheme to allow more fine-grained control over what was visible, and to whom, which could make this all a moot point; but I'm not sure whether that's still in the works.) Kirill 06:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to say that I agree with the substance of what is being said by DanT and SirFozzie. From what I have seen, SlimVirgin has frequently permablocked editors on evidence less compelling than that which is being presented against her -- often, I might add, editors with whom she has been involved in content disputes. I would like to submit the following modest proposal: that SlimVirgin, as a consequence of this episode, be asked not to ban others, in the future, for offenses that she herself has committed. There should be no double standards here. --MaplePorter 06:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Potential trouble brewing with User:Reinis

Hi all. Another user asked me to take a look at User Reinis, particularly wrt his edits to Creationism and his user talk page. AFAICT he's not broken policy, but he's pushed it to breaking point a couple of times and has definitely gone way past a lot of guidelines on things like civility. Unfortunately my time online is really restricted at the moment, so I was hoping someone more knowledgeable about si=uch things could take a look...? Cheers, Grutness...wha? 00:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Look closer. While I admit, reinis could stand to be more civil, this particular foolishness, grew out of User:Yidisheryid's blank indifference to consensus or policy. Several regular editors, with respect to his obvious inexperience, have patiently tried to explain to him why his (initial) edits to the lead wont fly, and it seems that he understands that now. Why now they're edit warring over adding two spaces to the lead, is frankly a mystery to me though. ornis (t) 02:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Johnjoecavanagh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) trolling a petition link

(note: similar topic above)

Johnjoecavanagh had been blocked indefinitely for personal attacks on both SchuminWeb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Woohookitty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), the latter who later on relented and unblocked him.

Now, he's started circulating a petition around, saying Wikipedia's deletion policy is ridiculous.

I also think that Johnjoecavanagh's first ever edit is a bit suspicious. Can an uninvolved admin please take a look at this? Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 01:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there a wiki policy about circulating anti-wiki petitions outside of wiki?Rlevse 02:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I blocked John but then decided to give him another chance. He's continued to make personal attacks as well as what is essentially trolling. No contribs to articles outside of adding an incorrect hoax tag as well as to the Redboy article, which is now deleted. I will say that his first ever contrib was actually to the Redboy article. It's just that it can only be seen by admins as far as I know. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 02:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio by Blytonite

The above user is the primary editor of the Amal Hijazi article and has uploaded numerous invalid fair-use images (most were violations of WP:NFCC#1 and have been deleted) and included them in the article. An example is this image, which was uploaded and deleted twice. To evade this, he apparently created this account on Commons, uploaded the same image there with an apparent fraudulent license, and then inserted the image back into the article. I've flagged the image at Commons but haven't yet removed it from the article pending comment here. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 03:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Obvious reincarnation of blocked user

Resolved

Phral (talk · contribs) was blocked as a sockpuppet recently. Now we have Phrallus Secondus (talk · contribs). Regardless of whether or not this is actually Phral (IP-wise), it is either him or one of his friends trying to play a game with us. In any case, a block is warranted. Thanks in advance for help on this particular. The Behnam 05:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Name matches, behavior matches, so I've blocked the user indefinitely. Thanks for the report. Picaroon (t) 06:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Poetlister block

I think it is time to consider the block on user:Poetlister, who was blocked as a sockpuppet of user:Runcorn, user:Newport, user:R613vlu, user:Brownlee, user:Londoneye, and user:Taxwoman by user:Dmcdevit on May 30th of this year.

Extensive documentation of the connection between several of the editors, compiled by user:Bulldog123, can be found here. It connects Newport, Brownlee, and R613vlu using sockpuppets abusively in AFDs/RFAs. No connection is made, however, between these accounts and the Poetlister account, other than an earlier sockpuppetry accusation from 2005.

This earlier discussion from 2005 is based on checkuser evidence confirmed by three checkusers, including user:Kelly Martin. However, Kelly Martin now admits "From what I recall, I found evidence of some shared IP use, but the patterns were such that IPs frequently used by one user were infrequently used by another, and vice versa. At first I suspected that this was a case of friends or coworkers occasionally editing at one another's location. At the time I didn't know enough about British IP ranges to recognize IPs that were likely to be public wireless access points, residential, or commercial (and really I still don't). However, I was convinced (pressured, really) by others to set aside my doubts regarding the reliability of the conclusion and so reported the lot of them for sockpuppetry, in what was almost certainly a miscarriage of justice."

Since the only announced checkuser on the Poetlister account, back in 2005, was confirmed by at least one CU who felt "pressured" to confirm the analysis, it seems to me the block (solely on the Poetlister account) is incorrect. I have sent two e-mails to Dmcdevit during the past month, but he has not replied to either e-mail. As far as I can tell, there was no announcement of a 2007 confirmation that the Poetlister account was a sock (this indicates the 2007 evidence was based on "editing patterns, including similar article interests, reverting to each other, and double voting", of which there are no cited examples of the Poetlister account doing since at least 2005, and even that is flimsy (the Poetlister account actually !votes differently in the one AFD I see); the two 2007 tables of evidence do not include the Poetlister account.

Because I have not heard from Dmcdevit, despite two attempts to contact him, I must bring this up on Wikipedia itself. If the block of the account is based on two year old edits and a pressured checkuser, the block should be overturned. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support an overturn of that block, not that she is likely to be back. I was never convinced by any of the editing patterns in the first place and Kelly's blog (when I read it a month or so ago) clinched it for me. Viridae^Talk 06:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't based on that at all. I actually did a pretty extensive study of editing and interest patterns, and they very conclusively matched with the Runcorn puppets. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)