Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

Welcome – post issues of interest to administrators.

For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you are new, try the Wikipedia:Teahouse instead. Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead use Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent. Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here. Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Sections inactive for over three days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search) Start a new discussion

Open tasks

XFD backlog

V	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Total
CfD	0	0	19	14	33
TfD	0	0	0	2	2
MfD	0	0	2	1	3
FfD	0	0	2	2	4
RfD	0	0	24	49	73
AfD	0	0	0	11	11

• 4 bot-reported usernames for administrator attention
• 2 user-reported usernames for administrator attention
• 6 bot-generated requests for intervention against vandalism
• 10 user-generated requests for intervention against vandalism
• 134 sockpuppet investigations
• 6 Candidates for speedy deletion
• 6 Fully protected edit requests
• 0 Candidates for history merging
• 36 requests for RD1 redaction
• 44 elapsed requested moves
• 4 Pages at move review
• 28 requested closures
• 124 requests for unblock
• 0 Wikipedians looking for help from administrators
• 14 Copyright problems

Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Report

Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (37 out of 7751 total) () WATCH Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin Jewish Institute for National Security of America 2024-05-14 06:51 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement Doug Weller Nava Mau 2024-05-14 03:45 indefinite edit,move Persistent disruptive editing: per RFPP; will also log as CTOPS action Daniel Case Andrey Belousov 2024-05-14 03:31 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: per RFPP and WP:RUSUKR Daniel Case Category:Hamas 2024-05-13 23:01 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement Izno Sde Teiman detention camp 2024-05-13 20:49 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:ARBPIA Ymblanter Çankaya Mansion 2024-05-13 14:18 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement, WP:GS/AA Rosguill Second Battle of Latakia 2024-05-13 13:39 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement ScottishFinnishRadish Alien 2024-05-13 13:23 indefinite move lower to semi, time heals; requested at WP:RfPP The Night Watch Shays' Rebellion 2024-05-13 08:08 2025-05-13 08:08 move dang it. Not used to move protection, I guess.... Dennis Brown Chuck Buchanan Jr. 2024-05-13 02:01 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Animal stereotypes of Jews in Palestinian discourse 2024-05-13 01:24 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per ARBPIA Daniel Case Michael Ealy 2024-05-13 01:22 2025-05-13 01:22 edit,move Persistent vandalism: racist swinery Drmies Template:Nelson, New Zealand 2024-05-13 00:51 indefinite move Highly visible template that is vulnerable to macron vandalism Schwede66 Hebrew University of Jerusalem 2024-05-12 21:47 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per ARBPIA Daniel Case Interracial marriage 2024-05-12 19:14 2024-11-12 19:14 edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry RoySmith Template:FAQ/FAQ 2024-05-12 10:48 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Justlettersandnumbers User:Arjayay/Rang HD 2024-05-12 10:46 indefinite edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry: WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Rang HD -- requested at WP:RFPP Favonian Rangiya 2024-05-12 09:27 2024-10-16 06:56 edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry: confirmed socks edit the article Ymblanter Vaush 2024-05-12 07:35 indefinite edit,move per WP:CT/BLP Primefac Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in January–June 2015 2024-05-12 04:52 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement Johnuniq Later-no-harm criterion 2024-05-12 03:07 2024-06-12 03:07 edit,move Edit warring / content dispute: Protected per a complaint at WP:AN3 EdJohnston Draft:Lewis Raymond Taylor 2024-05-11 20:41 2024-08-11 20:41 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Lewis Raymond Taylor 2024-05-11 20:35 indefinite create Persistent sockpuppetry JJMC89 2024 Kharkiv offensive 2024-05-11 12:11 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:GS/RUSUKR --requested at WP:RFPP Favonian Drake (musician) 2024-05-11 09:32 indefinite edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/BLP; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Slovenia 2024-05-11 09:29 2024-05-18 09:29 edit edit wars on the page Tone Timeline of the Israel–Hamas war (7 May 2024 – present) 2024-05-11 03:48 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Czech Republic 2024-05-11 02:43 indefinite edit Persistent disruptive editing: per RFPP and WP:ARBEE Daniel Case Ben Shapiro 2024-05-11 02:24 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBAP2 Daniel Case Eden Golan 2024-05-11 02:03 2025-05-11 02:03 edit Persistent disruptive editing from (auto)confirmed accounts ScottishFinnishRadish Nguyễn Văn Hùng (martial artist) 2024-05-10 20:21 2027-05-10 20:21 edit Persistent sockpuppetry: User:Nipponese Dog Calvero Favonian Nguyen Van Hung 2024-05-10 20:21 indefinite edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry: User:Nipponese Dog Calvero Favonian Phan Bội Châu 2024-05-10 20:21 2027-05-10 20:21 edit Persistent sockpuppetry: User:Nipponese Dog Calvero Favonian Nguyễn Kim Hồng 2024-05-10 20:21 2027-05-10 20:21 edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry: User:Nipponese Dog Calvero Favonian Vietnamese people in Taiwan 2024-05-10 20:21 2027-05-10 20:21 edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry: User:Nipponese Dog Calvero Favonian McGill University pro-Palestinian encampment 2024-05-10 19:18 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case England 2024-05-10 13:52 indefinite edit Persistent sockpuppetry: request at WP:RFPP Ymblanter

Self-nominations now open: 2019 Arbitration Committee elections

Eligible editors are now invited to nominate themselves as candidates for the 2019 Arbitration Committee elections. Nominations will not be accepted after 23:59 UTC on 12 November 2019. Voting on the candidates is scheduled to begin on Tuesday 00:00, 19 November 2019 and last until Monday 23:59, 02 December 2019 (UTC). Mz7 (talk) 00:06, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

This user has again started harassing me.

This user User:Edward Zigma is harassing me, causing stress and doing personal attacks on me. Violating WP:CIVILity policy again and again and

1. See SPI against me without any evidences.
2. See Arbitration case against me without any evidences.
3. Check their oldest contribution in which they called me as Islamophobic, publicised my tweets, personal informations and social media accounts which are oversighted now. Like this.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 03:58, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
4. Name-calling me as Hindutva Terrorist.
5. See this edit, they removed content without summary and content was added with consensus on talk page. Also, they undo my this edit in which I removed details from non-RS.
6. Also, this user doxxed me and declared me as Islamophobic.
7. User has aggressively removed my edits from Jammu and Kashmir Reorganisation Act, 2019 which I created and he put deletion template. They have been blocked previously for their battle ground behaviour. Check their talk page.
8. This is again when they namecalled that I have hidden agenda on page which I created.
9. Most of his edits are related to me and blanking my contributions. Check history of their talk page.

Kindly, take some action on this user. This user is WP:NOTHERE to build encyclopedia but to cause stress on good contributors and riding them away from contributing. If this user is going to stay here and harassing me then I have no other way to stop doing contributions to avoid stress and doxxing. Block on them will be appropriate.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 15:03, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

• I see the following situation. On 28 September, Edward Zigma was blocked by a checkuser for edit-warring for 48 hours, and, while being blocked, got from another user a warning about harassment. After the block expired, they only made five edits: three in the articles (reverted edits by Harshil169, who earlier reverted their edits; these edits were again reverted by Harshil169. At least in one case [1] they presumably were restoring text based on a bad source), replied on their talk page on a warning left by Harshil169, and opened a AE case against Harshil169, which did not contain diffs and was speedy closed by Black Kite. They have registered a year ago and made 200 edits. On one side, this is by itself not yet a case for an indefinite block, on the other hand, apparently, most of their contributions have been reverted, and WP:NOTHERE block might be a good decision. Certainly if they continue editing without first explaining themselves here I would be in favor of an indef block.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:00, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Ymblanter. Blocking is only option until and unless user promises to improve their behaviour. This user created chaos on my twitter profile too. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 16:42, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

• So the subject just raised a DS case against Harshil, but with no evidence. They've been notified by another admin, so we'll see if anything comes of that. Nosebagbear (talk)
• In terms of this, the user does appear to be trying to OUT Harshil. That can be done without actually giving a specific URL. There are also some extremely serious accusations made without supporting evidence provided. There are some less than ideal behaviours by Harshil that I've spotted, but thus far I've not spotted anything of comparable severity. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:33, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

No Nosebagbear . There is nothing harassing in this. This person is delibirately trying to attack news portal webpages and all other things such as niyoga from wiki pedia pages which seems to go against his ideology. I don't have any personal problem with him, but some months ago he made a defamatory hate page on muslims and posted about it on twitter crying for help resulting in sockpuppetry and many new accounts invading wikipedia. This user willfully attacking and changing the liberal voices of India and slightly removing the content slowly slowly which seems to go against his hindutva agenda. I don't want to bridge but you can see his twitter account. I may not be correct in submitting my request becoz I am learning wikipedia but this person is slowly doing this with his own agenda. I might act wrong before coz I dont know many ways here but becoz of me his fake wiki page of a temple vandalism got removed which he made with a malicious attampt to defame muslims. It's not about muslim or Hindu or Christian but its his ideology which is harmful with which he is working. I didn't provide diffs coz I don't know how to do that. But my purpose is only one thing. To call out the hypocrisy of wiki editor running his propaganda through wiki pages. Thanks. Edward Zigma (talk) 03:15, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you see the language of this editor? They are accusing me to suppress the liberal voices of India while I have been here since 2015 and see Talk:The Wire (India). I have been involved in meaningful discussion. There was also one SPI against me but it was failed and also, this user opened SPI against me without any evidences. Isn't this serious case to label me as to spread Hindutva agenda? If I made any defamatory page against Muslim then how I can be here without any block log? Pinging Nosebagbear again to see language of this editor and personal attack on me. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:27, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Pinging Ymblanter to check discussion above.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:29, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Didn't you call on hate against muslims when you made that page with malice intentions. I don't want to to brigade but the intentions of the editor are maliced and hate filled Islamophobic. Him lurking and slowly changing the context of liberal wiki pages are the proof for that. Wire is one of the best news portal for liberal voices in India but he is trying to vandalise it with his harmful hate intentions. Check the activity of Harshil169Edward Zigma (talk) 05:22, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I’m Islamophobic Hindutva terrorist as per your allegation. What the point you’re making here? Page has lengthy and meaningful discussion with concerned editor Winged Blades of Godric. You’re again and again accusing me with personal attack. This is administrator Noticeboard and you’ll see what happens due to this language. This is not first time. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 05:30, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Why are you so worried if your intentions are moral and to the ground. Let the editors check your history and let them decide how you selectively hand pick liberal wiki pages and try to defame them and removing other editors edit who are not alligned with your ideology. Tell them first didn't you make temple vandalism page and tried to blame muslims for it, that page is scrapped by senior wiki editors now. Now aren't you trying to disrupt the wiki pages of liberal voices of India. There is nothing wrong in my language. I never abused you like the ones you called from sock puppeting by your twitter handle. My allegation is there that the Harshil169 is trying to have an agenda and disrupting wiki pages of liberal voices of India. I request the editora to look at his edit history and take my matter into consideration. Thanks. Edward Zigma (talk) 05:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

You really need to cut out the accusations of malicious intent against Harshil. You're not helping your case at all. 199.247.45.10 (talk) 06:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• All things apart, user is still accusing me without providing difference. I have over 3K edits on Wikipedia and I always engaged in DR and Consensus. User again alleged me and attacked me by calling Hindutvavvadi, Islamophobic,agenda spreader. This depends on Admin to what to do. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 05:55, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

The question here is about intent of accused editor Harshil169. His selective editing of liberal wiki pages of India and reverting the edits made by other editors with same warning given by him to everyone who doesnt allign with his ideology. I sincerely request the seniors to check his edit history and how silently he edit the web pages of news portal and other without proper citations. And reverting the edit of other editors who provide proper citation. His page about temple vandalism is already scrap ped when caught with his malicious hate intentions. This is wikipedia not some hindutva propaganda page or islamic page. You cam clearly see the pattern of attacking liberals in India. This is not personal attacking but the intention of Harshil169 is not moral or in any way justifiable.Edward Zigma (talk) 06:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

The question here is about intent of accused editor Harshil169. His selective editing of liberal wiki pages of India and reverting the edits made by other editors with same warning given by him to everyone who doesnt allign with his ideology. Ehh, where the heck did I revert edit of person who doesn't align with my ideology? Please provide differences. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 07:58, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Didnt you involve in temple vandalism page and purposefully added the word muslims with malicious intentions. Are you attacking liberal wiki pages of news portals of India to mallign there image. Didnt you involve with editor moksha88 in the wiki page and tried to malign it sarcastically. I want to respected editors to take a dig at Nizil Shah for involving in editor groupism with Harshil169. .Edward Zigma (talk) 08:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

You are unnecessarily involving Nizil. First know what WP:3O means and what groupism means. I sought 3O from him. This is wikipedia not a hub for propaganda stuff. I just wanted to speak all of these in Administrator noticeboard which you spoke on several talk pages and behaved with me. Thank you for making my case more strong here. WP:ASPERATIONS will be applied and WP:NOTHERE block will be on way. Thanks a lot again! -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 08:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

There is nothing about the case. Checking the history of your edits. You are silently removimg or adding stuffs related with your Islamophobic agenda. Anyone who check 4 or 5 pages of your edits will know of of your intentions. Again this is wikipedia. Not some hub for your propaganda.Edward Zigma (talk) 08:28, 18 November 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edward Zigma (talk • contribs) 08:27, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

if you want this situation to be resolved, you must stop responding to each other and just let other editors get a chance to review the situation. You're not helping each other by just responding to each other.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 08:36, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Blue Pumpkin Pie, IMHO these two did not had a proper conversation on their own talk pages (other than posting templates), so they are having it here now.--DBigXrayᗙ 08:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

No DBig, this is serious issue. Calling me as Hindutva propagandist and Islamophobic is not acceptable. They filled SPI and AE report against me without any difference. This user is WP:NOTHERE to build encyclopedia.-- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 08:50, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

yes DBigXray This is really a serious issue. My saying won't make anything. Check the edit of accused Harshil169.I won't comment after this from my side. But Harshil169 is involve in groupism and any edit i make he uses either his friend or his own alternate account to evade 3 evert rule and try to suspend me on that 3 revert rule which I didn't even know about. Next you can check his edit history. He add defamtory stuffs about The wire and Quint and remove the content on Payal Rohatgi page on which she said Islamophobic comments which were talked a lot om twitter.

You won't get any comment here after this from my side. Please take matter into consideration about biasedness and groupism. And check the editor's connection with another senior edior Nizil Shah both are from Gujarat and are involved in groupism and changing wikipedia content according certain political ideology which cannot be allowed on wikipedia.Edward Zigma (talk) 08:56, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Question User:Harshil169 Please clarify below, in a yes or no, Are you following the contribution history of Edward Zigma ?DBigXrayᗙ 12:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

AnswerNever. I’ve more works to do like making pages, AfD, CSD, Copyedit and ITN or DYK. You can just check Zigma’s contributions. He NEVER contributed apart from my edited pages. See this. He generally undos content which I add. He never started editing page first. He’s stalking me. Harshil ^{want to talk?} 12:49, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Question Edward Zigma Please clarify below, in a yes or no, Are you following the contribution history of User:Harshil169 ?DBigXrayᗙ 12:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Answer Honestly no. I never do that. I cross paths with him coz he manipulate the articles of my interest and in a way defame those article (liberal ideologies). If thats not enough he calls different editors to his aid like it's a fight in the edits . And instead of involving in a discussion at talk page he and his friend edit the article and since 3 R rule is applied I can't change his reverts and he is adamant to not involve in talk pages. That's why feud arises. But no. I dont even watch his contribution but has to visit his page since he is involved in groupism.Edward Zigma (talk) 14:28, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• please clarify your last line.--DBigXrayᗙ 15:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

AnswerI meant DBigXray that i dont care what he said in his edits. I never purposefully visited his pages. Maybe since our Interests were same , we may cross the paths since I watch the pages of my Interest mainly. And whenever on that page I came across something suspicious I edited and many times it was his edits and many times they were someone's other. But today yes I checked his page since whenever I open discuss page or lock horns with this guy, some unknown editors suddenly come and start to support him. And when today he raised a complaint against me I checked his talks and in that he asked many editors to help him in complaint. Like it's some sort of groupism. On talk pages his friends come and manipulate the views, I got one stuck in 3RR when I didnt know about it and he and his friend obviously changes the edits. But I never checked his page until today. When again after the complaint some editors came to his rescue I checked his page and I already explained what I found. There were emails and call for aid to other editors which cleared my suspicion. I accept that due to no expireance my tone may got out of the league amd I am sorry for that. But my concern is strict and still there against this person that he is involved in Groupism.Edward Zigma (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Few comments from User:Edward Zigma on this thread:

This user willfully attacking and changing the liberal voices of India and slightly removing the content slowly slowly which seems to go against his hindutva agenda. I don't want to bridge but you can see his twitter account. Doxxing

I don't want to to brigade but the intentions of the editor are maliced and hate filled Islamophobic. Him lurking and slowly changing the context of liberal wiki pages are the proof for that. Wire is one of the best news portal for liberal voices in India but he is trying to vandalise it with his harmful hate intentions. Calling me Islamophobic and vandal

Now aren't you trying to disrupt the wiki pages of liberal voices of India. There is nothing wrong in my language. I never abused you like the ones you called from sock puppeting by your twitter handle. Declaring me as Sockpupeeter

You are silently removimg or adding stuffs related with your Islamophobic agenda. Anyone who check 4 or 5 pages of your edits will know of of your intentions. Calling me as Islamophobic again

This with SPI and AE without any evidences is causing me panic. User is definitely WP:NOTHERE. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 09:09, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I am definately here for wikipedia. I was the one who debated when you purposefull tried to defame muslim in your Temple vandalism page. I am learning at present. I don't know a lot of rule. I don't know how to complain or add diffs otherwise I would have complained a good on you and anyone visiting your edit page will see this. Now stop the conversation and let the other decide. You have again tried your groupism by calling another friend of yours which is completely unacceptable on wiki pedia. You called to Kautilya3 who himself is involved in disruption on the wiki page of Muslim prophet. If I am wrong they will take care of that.And if you are what I said they will that care of that too. Now it's best to let other decide. Edward Zigma (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - I see clear evidence of repeated personal attacks, for which Edward Zigma deserves a strong warning, and a block if he persists with such conduct.

Zigma, you need to stop acting as a self-appointed policeman of Wikipedia, for which you do not have any training or qualification, and focus on doing your editing. People with all kinds of ideologies come here and they are allowed to function as long as they edit Wikipedia according to its policies. It is not proper to brand them or harass them, or even to bring in their alleged conduct at other venues like Quora or Twitter or whatever. Those venues are not our concern. Since you have said that you are still learning how to work with Wikipedia, please focus on that first. Once you learn enough, you will know how to deal with real issues. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:56, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Does Harshil169 will call every other friend for his help. He clearly went on your talk page and called for aid from you. You are obviously his friend and biased. Let other unbiased editors decide what to do.Edward Zigma (talk) 10:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comment @Edward Zigma and Harshil169: some words of advice as an entirely uninvolved editor? Knock it off. Stop commenting on each other, stop responding to each other and stop this back-and-forth. The India-Pakistan area already is one many editors prefer to stay well-away from due to high tensions, but the both of you sure aren't helping matters. Right now, you're making people look at their watchlist, see either of your names on an edit here at the AN and think something along the lines of "goodness, are those two still at it?". It doesn't matter which one of you is right or wrong: all this back-and-forth is achieving is making sure everyone wants to stay far, far away from this issue. AddWittyNameHere 10:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

@AddWittyNameHere: My only concern is blank reports about me at AE and SPI, and Publicly putting my Twitter account. If these continue then I’ve to stop editing here.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 10:59, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you've made your concerns clear. All I'm saying is, if you want people to look into the matter you're reporting, you're not helping yourself by constantly replying to the other user. Similarly, if Edward Zigma wants people to look into what he is saying, he is also not helping matters by constantly replying to you. You've both stated your side of the issue, now give folks time to read it and check what you're saying. AddWittyNameHere 11:11, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comment came here after stalking contributions of Harshil169. I was connected with him long ago on GU and Mr wikipedia. It is clear that Zigma is repeatedly attacks the users and fils void reports. This can put anyone under panic. He is openly calling a contributor as propagandist or Islamophobic which goes against personal attack policy. As Harsil claims, if he revealed twitter accounts which are over sighted then I will support Indefinite block on this user. He is just attacking and riding away good contributors like Nizil and Harshil who are making articles. He was blocked even. Also, Harshil please keep calm.--Rutvik P Shah (talk) 13:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Note, this comment here at WP:AN is User:Rutvik P Shah's first ever edit on English Wikipedia. --DBigXrayᗙ 15:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Further Update'

I want to inform the editors that after filing the complaint against me Harshil169 and I put our points in front on the editor. I am advised by AddWittyNameHere to put my points and let the rest of the editor handle the case and to stop interacting with this editor. I did the same and never responded until and unless asked. I continued my work on different articles and had talk with senior editors such as uamaol on different issues and learnt a lot. I published a page on wikipedia and started working on it.here. By the time I ended whole editing , my article started getting edited by one account which was made a few minutes ago without proper resoning.Here. That same accounts which was made 12 mins ago (and started editing my article),and put my article under deletion with bad reasons and putting religious chants at the end of his reason.Here.My article was put into deletion by the new account(which edited my article without proper reasoning) and I am suspicious that this another account by Harshil169 and I want further checks between Harshil169 and the account which was made to put my article under deletion i.e. Bajarangbali ki jai (his reason for deletion of my article here ). I responded calmly. Put my reasons and waiting for editors to take decision. In the mean time I continued my casual editing of the article.

My grievance is that now I am getting further harassed by Harshil169. He is snooping and crawling in my contributions and putting my own edited images under deletion on copyright claims on wikimedia commons.Here.He is blocked here but now he started harassing me on wikimedia commons since he is not blocked there. This Harshil169 is leaving no stone unturned for harassing me. He changes edits and canvass the discussions and talk page of the groups. He is involved in groupism. He arbitrarily removes well cited edits of other users without involving in discussion. Now after we were advised by AddWittyNameHere to stop interacting here, I stopped having any type of slight imteraction with Harshil169 on my side but he keep harassing me by going through me contributions and now attacking me on wikimedia commons. I want Bbb23 and other respected senior editors and to take action against Harshil169 for harassment.

Thank you.Edward Zigma (talk) 08:52, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

The user Harshil169is further getting involved ,now on wikimedia commons with me. Here. After getting unmecessarily involved by putting my image in deletion draggimg this matter to wikimedia common. I have decided to not indulge with this guy anymore. He keeps talking about cases and always acts in hostile manner and bad tone.check his reply. He keeps citing unnecessary policies and continuously indulging with rubbish debates and acts in arbitrary manner. Please I request Bbb23 and other respected editors to take this matter into consideration. He has dragged this to wikimedia now ,causing disturbances. I would have considered his request to delete the image for once if he was right. But he has dragged with no good intention as image was in public domain, edited for making it good. But he is now acting very arbitrary and intentionally disturbing my editing. Please take action for this.

Thank you. Edward Zigma (talk) 11:18, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

List of diffs
References

Proposed solution

Some links:

• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Harshil169 (previous attempt)
• Special:Permalink/926604005#Harshil169
• Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Tabrez Ansari.jpg

Background

I didn't read up about this situation until after I wrote this. It is now abundantly clear to me that Edward Zigma is trying to grind an axe against Harshil169 in whatever way possible. He has attempted to out (per above), repeatedly attacked, and insulted with a number of accusations.
That said, Harshil169 is not perfectly in the clear. He has, on differring occasions, made several missteps in response to this controversy. Among those issues, he canvassed another editor despite that being something he should've known not to do.

Proposal

We need a hard separation between these two. I therefore propose:

1. A one-way IBAN against Edward Zigma (talk · contribs) prohibiting any interaction with Harshil169 (talk · contribs) with the first substantive violation being met with an indef;
2. A community-imposed topic-ban for Edward Zigma along the lines of WP:GS/Caste (since all problematic edits seem to have to do with Anti-Muslim violence in the region);
3. A warning for Edward Zigma that further conduct violations will lead to an indefinite block by any uninvolved administrator;
4. An final warning, logged at WP:EDR, for Harshil169 (talk · contribs) that the next instance of canvassing will be explicitly blockable offense to be enforced by any uninvolved administrator; and
5. Both users are encouraged to not engage in further WP:BATTLEGROUND-like behavior in the future.

@Ymblanter, Nosebagbear, AddWittyNameHere, DBigXray, Blue Pumpkin Pie, and Bbb23: Does that sound reasonable? (Non-administrator comment) –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:06, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

• @MJL: - in cases where both editors have caused some problems (even when legitimately imbalanced), would a 2 way IBAN not be preferable? Other than that, the rest of it all seems fine Nosebagbear (talk) 20:13, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Nosebagbear: It felt unnecessarily restrictive for Harshil to be completely banned from interacting with Edward since Harshil has been productive in several areas that could include interacting with him. For example, I linked an above discussion in which Harshil nominated a copyrighted image Edward uploaded to Commons. I am decently confident he would not abuse that position (since he has said he would like to stay away from Edward from now on anyways). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:21, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• I'm not very familiar with either editor, but i will support it based on the conversation i saw here and a few links provided too.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 20:31, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
• @MJL: - sigh. Considering my previous intervention and subsequent attempt to get Edward to behave in a non-battleground manner does not appear to have had lasting effect, I'm unfortunately going to have to agree. AddWittyNameHere 20:35, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

  @AddWittyNameHere: I don't think it's worth giving up on Edward per se. I just think he kinda sees himself as morally right in this situation, and this community has not really told him that is far from being true. My genuine hope is that by separating him from Harshil and removing him from this contentious topic area that he'll open up more. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 03:31, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  @MJL: Oh, I'm not giving up on him as such. Assuming he's still willing to accept my help after my comments here, I'm more than willing to keep providing it. I do genuinely believe he can become a good editor, but it will involve having to get rid of that battleground mentality and learning how to discuss things calmly and productively instead. Considering the stress he's still causing another user, I do however also think we're now well past the point where we can justify trying to "wait it out" in the hopes he changes rapidly. AddWittyNameHere 03:52, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@AddWittyNameHere: I did not engage with him in amyway.Neither in any battleground. I was suspicious so I opened an investigation for that. He is right or wrong that investigation will tell.If he edits under wiki policy then that's the best thing. But him being supremacist here and reverting edits by other, not getting involved in issues I open on talk pages, and unknown IP adresses reverting me edits tells us a lot of thing. I think we should wait for investigation result. I am pretty sure that will tell us a lot about this ongoing issue. Thank you. Edward Zigma (talk) 04:00, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Edward Zigma: Did you comment on that user? Yes. Did you accuse editors who didn't agree with you of being his sock puppets? Yes. Did you demand he get involved in your talk page discussions? Yes. Did you just now, in this moment, accuse Harshil169 of being supremacist? Yes. Did you engage with him in this dispute? Yes!! –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes I comment on user awkward way of editing liberal articles particularly of wikipedia.Next, I didn't just accuse. I opened am investigation on him. Amd I have my own evidences and proofs for that. Jumping on accused's innocence is right ?
No he never involve in talk pages. All he do is revert. If he revert it 2 times some random IP will revert it for him(let investigatiom check that).And then forcing his edits by putting templates on other editors pages. Next I said supremacist in editor way that his edit will last, without involving in a fruitful discussion or anything. If you think I am wrong then he is more wrong here. Which is somehow getting ignored. He literally canvassed don't know how many editors just for getting support. Dont know how many editors just jump randomly telling him to keep calm. That's the reason I opened the investigation. Edward Zigma (talk) 06:09, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Edward Zigma: I have criticized Harshil169 on multiple occasions about the canvassing issue. You're investigation is also extremely pointless in terms of what you are looking for. If I post on Twitter "Hey go vote in this afd," a Sockpuppet investigation is never going to be able to prove that. They also have a strict policy of not revealing whether or not a user is editing as an IP address. Finally, an SPI is in no way useful for dealing with user who doesn't remain calm. You aren't going to get what you want out of that investigation even if you were 100% right. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support Yes, please! It’s becoming too stressful to edit while all ad hominems are going on. I’m perfectly comfortable on IBAN on Edward because he’s making my situation too tough. I’ve too much work to do on Gujarati Wikipedia, Wiktionary and several other projects. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 22:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

You have no idea of what a pain in the ass an WP:IBAN is. And if you think it is going to hurt only Zigma, remember IBAN hurts both parties (I have seen experienced admins getting blocked for IBAN violations, you dont stand any chance). IBAN should only be used as a last resort.DBigXrayᗙ 07:29, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• @Harshil169: I understand that you have been stressed out about this situation, but I don't want you to take the wrong thing out of this experience. How you react in the tough times is what defines your character on this site, but once things got bad you then took several actions that proactively made your situation worse. You should have listened to this solid advice when it was presented to you. This was able to go on for literal months because you kept engaging with someone who did not want you to continue editing.
  Despite all that has happened, you need take responsibility for your part in all this and explain to this community why you're better than that. Where did you go wrong in dealing with Edward? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 03:31, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  @MJL: Most of the contributions (before November) of accused were related to reversal of my edits and complaining me and pinging me in blank discussions and all other things. I generally do content creation (like created 22 undeleted pages), take part in AfDs and CSD. This user has reverted my many valued contributions, which were posted by consensus even, by summarising it as propaganda. In addition, outing of my social media details. In a nutshell, this all was intended towards particular harassment of me. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 03:46, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Also, Kautilya3 was involved in seeing that accused was harassing me, putting deletion templates by other person’s name and all other things. So, I just informed him about this, though, my tone was bad and should be neutral. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 03:50, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Harshil169: You should not have notified Kautilya3 in that manner. Even if your talk page message had been neutral, the fact it was targeted to a single user whom you knew to agree with you is a major problem.
My point to you is that when someone is trying to hurt you, then you shouldn't respond to their remarks as if they have any power to define who you are. We have separate processes for content and conduct disputes for a reason; it isn't negotiable for whether someone is allowed to be uncivil and say user's aren't here in good faith.
I'm not trying to put you down, but I am speaking from my own experiences of abuse and harassment. Comments like this did not help your cause. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I understand. Apologies. — Harshil ^{want to talk?} 04:35, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support :- Agree with MJL's assessment, sort of. Zigma is (usually) on the right side of content but, he's one of the most brazen POV pushers and his insistence on assuming bad faith of others in content-dispute, when compounded with a poor grasp of the language renders him a net negative. Thus, he ought be banned from all topics, related to Indian politics, broadly construed. I note in passing that Zigma's sub-optimal behavior does not in any way, justify Harshil's behavior and responses; this ain't a competition of rhetoric. ∯WBG^converse 06:31, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• On some re-thoughts, I don't support a logged warning on canvassing. It's not as clear-cut, to my eyes given K3 was previously involved in their disputes. But, once again, Harshil needs to tone down the aggressive rhetoric by a good few notches, per WP:BATTLEGROUND. ∯WBG^converse 06:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Recently, after block, I never commented uncivil. -- Harshil ^{want to talk?} 07:19, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• I disagree that Zigma is net negative, folks having English as second or third language may make some mistakes but that can be easily fixed in 1 copy edit. Zigma is far from a WP:CIR domain. Zigma has created a notable article and based on my discussion with him, knows that he is new and is open to learning. These are all positive traits. --DBigXrayᗙ 07:29, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• @DBigXray: Apart from content creation, threatening to reveal twitter and quora accounts, posting links of my interview, name calling as Hindutva Terrorist, Islamophobic, Superamist, personal attack and filling void reports multiple times isn’t learning, IMHO. It’s directly an attempt to throw someone out of Wikipedia. And even if you ask him again about me then his answer will be I’m spreading propaganda.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 07:45, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• It is also my own observation that your edits have a Pro right wing and anti left BIAS. (see here) It may be Zigma's observation that you are spreading propaganda. Different choice of words. This is not something that enforcement of WP:NPA and WP:AGF by admins cannot fix. --DBigXrayᗙ 07:55, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• I think this issue was discussed yesterday at Talk:Vivek Agnihotri#Controversies. Now, if things are going personal then let me remember Talk:Zomato in which you opposed inclusion of twitter backlash and Talk:Tejasvi Surya where you never responded back about similar issue. Apart from your feeling, threats to disclose accounts, name calling and void reports are vital here.— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 08:12, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• you are only giving more strength to my prophecy below. Good luck. --DBigXrayᗙ 08:23, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose #1 and #2, that is any type of WP:IBAN or Topic BAN among these two users. I am ok however with #3, #4, and #5. I have been watching the dispute between the two and I am quite sure one or both of them will try to game the system by trapping the other in an IBAN, that will be very unfair. IMHO these two are very less experienced and they clearly belong to the two opposing school of thoughts in politics. Discussion between them is useful for the article reaching an WP:NPOV. The problem is uncivil discussion and WP:BATTLE mindset. An IBAN will prevent any discussion and IMHO is akin to killing a fly with a hammer. Similarly putting a TBAN will deny them opportunity to contribute in the only topic area they like to contribute. Based on my own experience of how they are behaving with others at separate pages, I dont believe any of the two editors can survive for a long time here until and unless they bring about a drastic change in their un-WP:CIVIL behavior. I consider both editors to be at fault, and I believe both of them are aware what fault they have committed. I would suggest closing this thread with a warning on both of them to strictly follow WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and the steps of WP:DR whenever they encounter each other (or everyone else for that matter). If the problematic behavior continues, the offending party can be subjected to incremental blocks. Harshil169 has already been blocked last week for WP:NPA violation [2] and Zigma in September for EditWarring, more blocks will be coming if folks dont learn . Lets give these two users a chance to act as good editors following WP:CIVIL and also give them WP:ROPE. This is not something that enforcement of WP:NPA and WP:AGF by admins cannot fix.--DBigXrayᗙ 07:10, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  @DBigXray: I appreciate that you are more involved in this content area than me, so you clearly are better equipped to analyze this situation from a disruption standpoint. Also, thank you for the strawberries!
  I still think a warning will not be enough for Edward, and here is the reason why. I was genuinely dumbfounded by that comment. I don't think either user is a net-negative, but I don't think Edward is actually capable of commenting on Harshil's content without bad-mouthing the editor. Harshil, obviously, is a hothead, but there is not shortage of left-wing contributors for him to be able to argue content with. I'm willing to forgo the T-Ban per your concerns, but an IBAN seems like the minimum to preventing further conflict. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 16:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks MJL, for sharing your kind thoughts, indeed I am very familiar and involved in the topic area these two have been editing. As I said above in this thread, IBAN should be considered a last resort, when the editors are incapable of behaving despite warnings. AFAIK, they have not been formally warned. So there we are. If Zigma attacks someone, Zigma will be blocked by an admin, if that is reported. Last week, Harshil was blocked for a week for NPA violation. If Harshil attacks someone again, his next block will be for a month and then the next block will be indefinite. So clearly we have an established "usual" way to fix this. IBAN will also achieve the same thing (i.e. them getting blocked) but without IBAN, atleast these guys will have more control on their fate, and if they really care about editing career here, they will possibly reform. If they dont, then a block is only a click away for an admin. This is my opinion on the way forward and I note that it differs from what MJL thinks. So, lets agree to disagree. DBigXrayᗙ 17:52, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

MJL (talk · contribs)I was trying not to say anything and let the editors decide. But your comment made me to answer. First can you tell me where did I bad mouth them this guy. I never said he is Hindutva Islamophobic.I said the ideology is. Second as far as I remember I didnt even used the term hindutva terrorist for him or anything like that but somehow he added that too. There is a hell of a lot difference between how he is showing I am and How I really am.Talk to people editors with which I have worked in this last month or two(most active in these months only), then you will know what and how my behavior is. If the people with whom I have worked with (except this guy) have any type of bad expireance then point that out to me right now. Just coz I am in dispute with this editor and I am seeing a pattern in his edits( many of which got ignored) doesnt mean I am a person with bad behaviour or somethimg. If I wanted to involve with this guy I would have edited all his work in the time of one week in which he was blocked. But I didn't even see his page coz I know it's his thinking and way he edits liberal articles of India is wrong, not him as a person. I know gujrati too but I never even went there coz I know he works good there. Next he is alleging of outing or whatever it is. Then let me tell you first he put the link of his own linking himself to the outside and after that I said the same which was used by him to try to open report against me. You justify him by saying him being an hothead but your views change when it comes to me. Is this justifiable by explaining his mistakes like he is some sort of child or a baby learning, but when it comes to me then whole scenario changes and accusing me of things ,many of which are taken in wrong context just to discard me. You read his views and opinion and that's good but same behaviour must be taken to my side too. That's what I am saying. Edward Zigma (talk) 17:42, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Edward Zigma: My views of you are thus: you think that you are right and the actions you have taken are justified. I am telling you that they are not. You aren't a bad person, but you certainly aren't acting like a good one.
Here is when you said this user was using Hindutva terrorism ideologies and fake propaganda.
Here is an example of you badmouthing Harshil on Commons.
He also is accusing you of outing because you keep referring to things he is supposed to have said off-wiki which is VERY against policy. (see WP:OUTING).
Also, both AddWittyNameHere & Winged Blades of Godric (who HAVE worked with you) said your behavoir likely needs to be sanctioned. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

That's what I said. How is the diff that you have provided is bad mouthing. On the day I posted that, we were advised not to interact with each other. And then he got banned here. But hebwas still checking my contributioms. After his block I made an article and from that article he took an image and put it under speedy deletions of wikimedia commons.And I just tell that this guy recently blocked here is now doing this with bad intention. How isbthat BADMOUTHING? He is here for 4 years but not at one single place he told me how things work here. All he did was either revert edits, posting warning templates, not getting involve in talk page discussioms and reporting to noticeboards. This was the context.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Edward Zigma (talk • contribs) 19:08, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Edward Zigma: I see what you are saying, and in a twist I am actually going to say that a lot of this should be thrown back at me to be honest. I was checking my watchlist and saw your talk page come up. It turns out that I was the person who originally welcomed you to this project, and it would seem that I didn't follow through on my responsibility to point you in the direction of resources where you could've more easily understand and learn our policies better. This is doubly true if you at any point felt frustrated or another user was biting you.
However, you did upload a copyrighted image, and that is a pretty serious thing which you are making light of. Copyright violations have genuine legal implications and are not acceptable in any circumstance. It was the right thing to do for Harshil to nominate that image for deletion on Commons even if he was actively blocked on English Wikipedia for disputing with you. Saying he nominated it for deletion with bad intentions is meaningless because you infringed on another person's copyright.
In this very thread, I told Harshil169 straightforwardly that he acted poorly while engaging with you. He pushed back, but he ultimately accepted he had a role in this (including improperly canvassing another user). Will you do the same? Did you try to out this editor on multiple occasions by speaking of alleged tweets and Quara accounts despite their clear requests to stop? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 00:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@MJL: Months ago there was some sort of disruptive editing 2 or 3 times(and that only with this guy) which could easily be sorted out by telling me how to raiSe the issue. But if there is allegation about outing him or something.Why would I?. The first place where I mentioned about twitter is when he literally sockpuppeted. (Redacted) Then Hugsyrup (talk · contribs) put that article under deletion and for thar he himself tweeted (Redacted) and somethimg like that amd then he asked for voting. Thats where I said that this guy tweeted this and this resulted in sockpuppeting.How is this doxxing when it was related to that incident. Next time this happened was when he was again adding stuff like quora is Hinduphobic and all. And I said just coz some users on quora answer doesnt make it that. But again he was stuck there like he is somekind of superior, whom has right to every edit. Then I said on talk page that this user (Redacted), How could he be unbiased on this. These were the two instances where I had to mention something from the outside. And those mentions were totally related to the topics. How could this be called outing? Amd why would I even care if this person do good edits instead of purposefully changing the liberal articles of India. He was not changing in big contexts. He was changing a bit by bit. That's where I had to intervene on quint talk page and somehow he saw that as harassment and this ended up here. Honestly now I dont even want to give clarification on this becoz I just did a small edit on quint. If he wanted he could have sorted that out when we were on the talk page. But he did not. I have given many clarifications and left this on other senior editors and adminstrators to take their decisions. Thank you. Edward Zigma (talk) 02:36, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@Edward Zigma: I am not going to say this again: Stop repeatedly making allegations against Harshil169 that can in any manner compromise his privacy. I have redacted the most problematic parts of what you said (though they remain in this page's history) because this is a highly visible noticeboard. If you want to pursue that matter, then contact the Arbitration Committee. This isn't the forum for that, and neither is WP:SPI. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 03:36, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Who could decide this was controversial? I was sayimg these were the 2 conditions where I explained how it's related to something outside. And that explaining is what he is using against me. If he were so careful he should have warned me against that. But he didn't chose to do that.We should let other editors and adminstrators to decide what should be done. Thank you.

Arbitration motion regarding Sexology

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Remedy 2.1 of Sexology ("Jokestress topic-banned from human sexuality") is amended to read:

Jokestress (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from the topic of human sexuality and gender, including biographies of people who are primarily notable for their work in these fields.

For the Arbitration Committee --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 06:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Sexology

Need help with a revert

Resolved

Can someone revert Lachy digital edits at Jack White, I get a huge error message, something to do with meta spam blacklist. Thanx, - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 07:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done with the notablebiographies.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com link removed. — JJMC89 (T·C) 08:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

TY. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 08:38, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

American Politics protections

If anyone's interested and wants to save five minutes working it out, the protection timestamp for midnight Eastern on polling day 2020 is 202011040500, midnight Pacific is 202011040700updated. I have a feeling I will be typing that from memory soon. In related news: I love pending changes. The perfect halfway house between open editing and anarchy, at least on well-watched articles. Guy (help!) 22:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Midnight where, JzG? London? Hawaii? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

It's always 5 o'Clock somewhere. El_C 05:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

@Cullen328: you're right, my bad. Wrong coast. In my defence, everyone I work with in US always gives times in Eastern, but I should know better as my wife's firm is now firmly on Pacific. Guy (help!) 12:42, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn't midnight Pacific be 0800 UTC? ST47 (talk) 20:02, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

At this exact point in time PST is UTC-8. A month(?) ago, it would have only been -7. Primefac (talk) 02:36, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Disagreement between Leaky caldron and me concerning ADMINACCT

Today, I was unfortunate to leave this comment. Based on this and the subsequent discussion, Leaky caldron came to the conclusion that I was not impartial in the discussion, and that my remark in this discussion shows a clear bias in favor of admin participants. They found my responses that I did not mean anything of this kind, first there and then at my talk page, unconvincing, and now they came up with the requirement that I should warn Kudpung, another participant on this discussion. To be honest, I did not feel such pressure on Wikipedia since about two years ago, when my interaction with Fram followed a similar scenario. However, it does not mean anything, or it could mean that I am tired, or that I do not understand obvious things. May I please ask (an) uninvolved participant(s) (and given the nature of the dispute, it is better that these participants are non-admins) to read Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee Elections December 2020#Questions to candidates and User talk:Ymblanter#Remaining question unanswered (this is not much text) and answer two questions: (i) was my behavior inappropriate in this episode, in particular, below that expected from an administrator; (ii) are there any policies, guidelines or any other binding documents, in particular, WP:ADMINACCT, which would require me to continue this discussion (which I already proposed to stop [3]) and take any actions as a result which I would not otherwise take. Thank you for looking into this.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:24, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

This is ridiculous Ymblanter, you have nothing to answer for here. There are users who will exploit any, just absolutely any, opportunity to insist they have been attacked, insulted, offended by an admin, or to find any other flimsy reason whatsoever to have a dig at admins. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Just to be clear, I have not requested this referral and am not intending to participate beyond the following. I don't want to crawl over the entrails of past disputes. Nor did I require Ymb to warn Kudpung. I did ask Ymb if Kudpung's remarks about my use of English parts of speech was also a borderline personal attack and if Ymb was intending to do anything about that but it falls some way short of a requirement, IMO. Leaky caldron (talk) 13:37, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• The incident just seems to be a routine discussion and there's no need for a big inquest per WP:LIGHTBULB. On the issue of effective communication, Ymblanter should please review his opening sentences. In the first one, I'm not sure what he means by "unfortunate". In the second, I have the impression that there's a missing "not". Andrew D. (talk) 13:44, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

  Thank you, I inserted "not". Unfortunate means here that if I could foresee where the discussion would go and how much time and effort it would cost to me to continue it, I would never respond there even though I still stand by my opinion.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:49, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Uninvolved non-admin comment. @Ymblanter: Thank you for forwarding this for review. I think you probably are being tired here.
  Basically, if this was intended as a general comment to disagree with Leaky, then that's relatively fine [That page isn't for comments but whatevs]. However, you seem to imply that it was actually a response to a potential WP:NPA (therefore an admin action)? I can see that being rather problematic here.
  (1) Leaky's initial comment was certainly more charged than Kudpung's comment, but it didn't seem to be a personal attack.
  (2) That really wasn't the place to warn Leaky anyways.. that'd be their talk page.
  (3) I still really don't see any reason to single them out anyways.
  (4) Leaky kinda does have the right to engage with you about adverse admin actions taken against them.
  If it was me in your position, I'd just have blanked both Kudpung's and Leaky's comments since that page is for next year's RFC questions and not debate/general comments. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:43, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks @MJL: for looking into this. Do you think collapsing the whole discussion below the first comment under the header "more detailed proposals" os smth like that (rather than blanking) would be acceptable at this point?--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Ymblanter: [Thank you for the ping] 100% would still be acceptable to collapse everything after Thryduulf's initial post (pretty much everything posted on 24 November 2019 didn't belong there). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 14:56, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

  Thanks, I will wait a bit longer in case additional reactions are forthcoming, and collapse the topic.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Narayan Rao Tarale

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It happens once again. In this year's August RHaworth deleted two stub articles (Maya Rani Paul and Jogesh Chandra Barman) which were created by me. They were MLA. Just now, he also deleted Narayan Rao Tarale who was a member of the Karnataka Legislative Assembly (see Former MLA Narayan Rao Tarale passes away). Proper references were given in that article. According to wP:NPOL MLAs are notable. So why this article falls under a7 and why it was deleted? I think the article should be restored by an administrator.--S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 18:17, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

S. M. Nazmus Shakib, You will need to go to WP:REFUND if you would like the page to be restored. Interstellarity (talk) 19:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Interstellarity and :RHaworth please answer, did this article fall under a7? Did your speedy deletion tag putting was appropriate or did his deletion was correct? He had done it before. Why he is doing repeatedly?

For your refund request, it was written there Please do not request that pages deleted under speedy deletion criteria A7, G4, G5, G11 or G12 be undeleted here. So I have only one option.--S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Interstellarity ... at WP:REFUND does it not say Please do not request that pages deleted under speedy deletion criteria A7, G4, G5, G11 or G12 be undeleted here.. So can you confirm the direction you have given to S. M. Nazmus Shakib. Comment: I Haven't seen the article though. Not sure S. M. Nazmus Shakib should be forced to go via WP:AFC as there might be a WP:DRV option also. @S. M. Nazmus Shakib ... RHaworth does really excellent work actioning very many speedy delete requests but obviously mistakes can be made and best to ask him nicely (and without shouting) on his talk page in the first instance before going for a WP:REFUND request or continuing here. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Djm-leighpark, I try not to give incorrect advice to anyone. I thought I was pointing this editor in the right direction. Anyway, I will let you guide this editor in the right path. I trust you. Interstellarity (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Djm-leighpark Sorry, if it seems shout. I am not en-N user. Its my second language. I have no intention to shout. If it seems its my mistake.

I have requested him on his talkpage, it is unanswered till now. Please, see, his talkpage. I know to err is human. But, I think an article of a lawmaker with proper references and having two para and three references should not fall under a7 and it should not be deleted if a7 was used by mistake. I think it is a bad speedy deletion. The article should be restored.--S. M. Nazmus Shakib (talk) 19:51, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• The assertion in the article that the subject was a member of a state legislature (backed up with sources) is a credible claim of significance or importance for the purposes of speedy deletion criteria A7 and it really shouldn’t have been tagged as such. Interstellarity, will you bear that in mind going forward please? As for restoration, the steps are to contact the deleting admin directly and then, if not resolved, raise the matter at deletion review. We are at the first step at RHaworth talk page at the moment. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:29, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

  Malcolmxl5, Sounds good. My mistake. Interstellarity (talk) 20:58, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Interstellarity. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:08, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

UK newspaper sources and how to handle deprecated sources?

This has spilled over from WP:RSN, but clearly it has gone beyond WP:RSN's ability to find a solution.

• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#News of the World
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Daily Mail (sigh, yes, again)
• Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#What (exactly) does "Deprecation" mean?
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Correct action when someone persistently adds back a deprecated source?
• User talk:David Gerard#John Wark

UK newspapers are increasingly seen as unreliable and unfit to be used as sources (unlike, for instance, the seemingly unimpeachable Fox News or Russia Today). Every time I look at the noticeboard, another one has been added. This has gone from the infamous WP:DAILYMAIL "ban" to The Sun, The News Of The World and even The Daily Express.

These sources are now "deprecated". There is little agreement as to what "deprecated" means. WP:DEPS is pretty clear "that editors are discouraged from citing in articles, because they fail the reliable sources guideline in nearly all circumstances." and "Deprecating a source is a more moderate measure than "banning" it.". However some editors at WP:RSN have disagreed with this. Also note that DEPS does not list the NotW or Express as deprecated at all.

There is general agreement at RSN that:

• These sources are deprecated, and rightly so (at least, let's say, for the Daily Mail). There is no question that they do not have considerable problems of either recurrent inaccuracy or editorial bias.
• Deprecation should (per DEPS) discourage these sources being added to articles.
• There are also issues, without great disagreement, that an article, a BLP statement, or a contentious statement generally, would have trouble passing WP:V if it relied upon such sources.

It should also be noted that:

• There is no policy against the use of non-RS sources. There is no policy supporting the immediate removal of non-RS sources. We have guidelines, based on WP:V, which require the use of RS sources (and would not be met by non-RS sources) in several situations. But there is no policy against the further use of sources which do not meet RS, to go beyond this. Typically such sources have had issues re WP:SPS.

When it gets to the following however, there is great disagreement at RS:

• What is to be done about existing articles, with existing use of deprecated sources?

Several approaches have been discussed:

1. Tagging such sources as {{better source needed}} or {{Deprecated inline}}.
2. Immediate blanket removal of all such sources, from all articles. Optionally with replacement by {{citation needed}}
3. Immediate blanket removal of all such sources, and the content which they support, from all articles.
4. Deletion of articles which rely on such sources.

Two editors have been carrying out 2 / 3 here. Despite prior agreements to not do this, and to limit themselves to 1. There is no consensus to support this, there is significant opposition to doing so (1 would be supported). There is no policy to support this, WP:DEPS does not support it, WP:DAILYMAIL does not support it, the RfCs etc. before WP:DAILYMAIL were pretty clear in not supporting it. Also, when other editors have done this, they have largely been reverted. However two powerful editors (admins) are able to push this through anyway.

These removals have also failed on WP:COMPETENCE and WP:EW. In many cases, one citation or reference to a deprecated source has been removed, leaving other citations hanging. In others they've removed blocks of citations and taken out obvious RS with them. There have been concerns about the speed of these edits, and their resultant poor accuracy, including breaching the usual level of "a sustained rate of under 5 seconds per edit" being seen as a problem, re WP:MEATBOT. Edit-warring is a given: even against CitationBot [4][5][6] on Skibidi and most recently [7][8] on block-setting crane. It might be noted that this citation came up specifically at the WP:DAILYMAIL RfC a year ago as an example of why automated bulk removal of these citations was so wrong Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 254#RfC: The Sun. And of course, whenever admins indulge in content disagreements, they back it up with threats of blocks: User talk:Andy Dingley#Addition of deprecated sources to Wikipedia articles.

WP:FAIT and a willingness to edit-war freely is also a good way to skew any argument in one party's favour, if they have the power and influence to do so. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 270#Global ban on non-RS? is a good example of such, to strip out all use of an unquestioned (except by one) source which then turned out to have support as RS.

These disagreements (and for one of the admins here they're very long-running) have been characterised throughout by sheer bad-faith and abuse of other editors, and regular threats. Some of the abuse would be insta-blocks if anyone else had done it the other way, but evidently it's OK for them to call other editors "c*nts". In particular, two things: a persistent and unbending description of anyone disagreeing as "friends of The Sun" etc. Yet no-one here is supporting these sources or claiming that these newspapers are a problem for us (the first two points at the start here), rather than disagreeing solely on the third point, what is to be done about them? Secondly, repeatedly claiming that policy supports immediate blanket removals and citing WP:DEPS in support of that: and yet DEPS does not support any such, nor does WP:DAILYMAIL.

WP:RSN is not a safe space for a GF discussion on how to proceed here, when one side of the argument can (and is repeatedly) threatening to block the other. Accordingly I bring it here. We need some sort of agreement on the remedy for these sources, and can we please try and do it without accusing the bona fides of one side and pretending that they are instead advocates for the Sun. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:28, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I would also add briefly here that at least one editor currently purging Wikipedia against all the above is an admin and has utilised WP:ICANTHEARYOU several times, along with unfounded claims against users' motivations, strongly in contravention of WP:ADMINACCT. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 20:51, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Andy Dingley, Just to address a couple of specifics: UK newspapers are increasingly seen as unreliable and unfit to be used as sources (unlike, for instance, the seemingly unimpeachable Fox News or Russia Today). Every time I look at the noticeboard, another one has been added. This has gone from the infamous WP:DAILYMAIL "ban" to The Sun, The News Of The World and even The Daily Express.

1. No, not "UK newspapers" .A small number of UK red tops.
2. See WP:RSP: RT is generally unreliable for topics that are controversial or related to international politics. . I don't use it at all and replace it wherever I see it. It's not deprecated, if it came up, I would support deprecation for the same reason that I supported deprecation of Occupy Democrats. We need to stick to sources whose primary objective is reporting facts, not supporting an agenda.
3. Right now there is a thread on that exact same noticeboard where I am arguing against inclusion of Fox News, and have done so many times based largely on the analysis in the excellent Network Propaganda by Faris and Benkler, and I am eternally grateful to Mike Godwin for suggesting it.
4. The Mail was the first deprecated source. I proposed removing (not deprecating because there were only a couple of hundred uses) the News of the World because it was literally shut down for possibly the worst misconduct in UK journalistic history. One of its journalists has since been jailed for other misconduct.

The problem with taking an arbitrary view of whether this or that story is accurate is that it puts Wikipedians in the position of evaluating primary fact, and we're explicitly not allowed to do that. If I were to propose that a certain chapter in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is a reliable source for a specific fact, I would, rightly, be slapped down. A crap source is a crap source.

It seems to me that you have never accepted deprecation, which you argued against, and you want to ensure that no action is taken based on it. Demanding sanctions against the few who actually undertake active cleanup is the wrong way to go about that.

Instead, you should set up a central RfC at WP:CENT on whether deprecation of sources is legitimate, and whether removal of deprecated sources is appropriate, and if so how should it be done. You're challenging a course of action that has been discussed and refined through multiple debates at WP:RSN, and you're doing so here on the basis that... what? the two people you identify as primarily responsible both happen to be admins? No admin powers have been used here. David's not even using AWB. How is that a matter for the admin board? Guy (help!) 23:24, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that you have never accepted deprecation

Please read some of what has been written, and stop just listening to yourself. Deprecation, or the need for it, are not questioned. What is questioned is the meaning of deprecation, and how to deal with those sources.

a course of action that has been discussed and refined through multiple debates at WP:RSN

A course of action that has been rejected at RSN, at WP:DEPS, at WP:DAILYMAIL et al. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:38, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I just looked at WP:DAILYMAIL and couldn't find the wording that rejected the removal of Daily Mail references. Precisely which words were you thinking of here? - David Gerard (talk) 14:41, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• It closes, "Volunteers are encouraged to review them, and remove/replace them as appropriate. "

No-one is against this with review and treatment of them as appropriate. That is not the same thing as 'bot runs to remove them all regardless, or manually editing at the speeds of WP:MEATBOT. No-one is against a considered removal on inappropriate use of the Mail (which is likely to be asymptotically approaching zero), but the error rate and collateral damage of this blanket process (and I would concede, much less so from your edits than Guy's) has been excessive, way beyond what DAILYMAIL called for.

Also WP:DEPS is specific that, "Deprecating a source is a more moderate measure than "banning" it. " and neither of these support the performance of blanket removals (rather than replacements), whether conducted by 'bot or manually. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:23, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Removal is usually appropriate - the words you literally quoted there really don't reject the removal of deprecated sources. Your claim doesn't check out - David Gerard (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The above mischaracterises what I wrote at User_talk:Andy_Dingley#Addition_of_deprecated_sources_to_Wikipedia_articles - it was in no regard a threat of a block. What I asked him to do, was to stop repeatedly adding deprecated sources to Wikipedia, without obtaining the high degree of consensus that would require.

Here's the text I added there:

---

You are continuing to add deprecated sources to Wikipedia articles, e.g.: [9] [10] [11] [12] - despite the deprecation of the Daily Mail as a source in two RFCs and The Sun as a source in one RFC.

From the 2017 WP:DAILYMAIL RFC: "its use as a reference is to be generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist. As a result, the Daily Mail should not be used for determining notability, nor should it be used as a source in articles."

From the 2019 Sun RFC: "References from the Sun shall be actively discouraged from being used in any article and they shall neither be used for determining the notability of any subject."

I appreciate that you personally disagree with the removal of deprecated sources. However, as WP:DEPRECATED describes it: "Deprecation is a formalization that arises from Wikipedia’s normal processes for evaluating sources. It primarily exists so that we can save time by not repeatedly discussing or explaining the same issues, and to increase awareness among editors of the status of the sources in question." Demanding repeated relitigation of the deprecation of a source such as the Daily Mail is a waste of other editors' time.

As you have noted in previous discussions, the deprecation does not forbid all use of the Daily Mail as a source in articles. However, the two RFCs show a strong general consensus that its use is "generally prohibited". This means that any use of it needs a strong consensus - and not just a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, as that cannot override a general consensus, per the Arbitration Committee's 2013 statement of principles on levels of consensus. A consensus would need to be a general consensus - in an appropriate venue, such as the Reliable sources noticeboard.

I also appreciate that you feel your edits were completely correct and appropriate. However, you still need to obtain consensus for such inherently controversial edits, per WP:ONUS - which is policy - "While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, all verifiable information need not be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is upon those seeking to include disputed content."

The Daily Mail has been ruled a generally prohibited source in two RFCs; as such, the onus is upon you to seek a general level of consensus to override the general consensus of those two RFCs, before adding deprecated sources to Wikipedia articles.

Nor can you claim that you do not understand that adding deprecated sources to a Wikipedia article is controversial - one administrator noted in a recent discussion at WT:RSN that he would have blocked you for one of the edits listed above had he not been in a direct conflict with you at the time. While I further appreciate that you would consider this an unjust block, you cannot reasonably claim that repeatedly adding deprecated sources to Wikipedia articles is an uncontroversial action.

I ask that you undertake to stop adding sources that have been deprecated to Wikipedia articles without first obtaining a sufficient level of general consensus for each edit to override the general prohibition, obtained in a suitable venue.

---

Andy's response comes across as an attempt to strike out pre-emptively against the onerous burden of ... checking that his controversial edits that add deprecated sources to articles - sources that consensus holds we literally cannot trust - have consensus first. Per WP:ONUS, which is policy.

I ask that administrators give consideration to requiring that Andy not add deprecated sources to any Wikipedia article in future, without first obtaining a general consensus for the edit in question - in an appropriate venue, such as the Reliable sources noticeboard - David Gerard (talk) 21:03, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Wow, walls of text. What has been happening here is as Andy described, a current admin going through anything (and literally anything) related to The Sun and removing it wholesale. Sometimes he finds other sources (introducing raw URLs), sometimes he partly edits articles so leaving them half-referenced, sometimes he removes completely benign references to The Sun. In many cases Gerrard has made false claims in his edit summaries and seems to be under the impression that DEPS is policy or (as he has said at least once, a "guideline"). We should be discouraging admins from doing such things. Also, Gerrard has made some claims about the motivations of a few editors, without any justification. When asked for evidence of this, he has remained silent, directly in contravention of WP:ADMINACCT. I have a complete shedload of evidence I could bring to this, it's mostly trivial to find from Gerrard's recent contributions, but at no point has he made claims of his edits to resolve "controversial" or "disputed" claims, he's just implementing a de facto ban on The Sun and other such sources. This, of course, is in complete contradiction to WP:DEPS which he himself has claimed he is following and which he is also incorrectly asserting. Something needs to be done about this mishandled purge that an admin is pursuing. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:14, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I would ask that The Rambling Man be restrained similarly - deliberate additions of deprecated sources to articles, [13][14] including two of adding controversial claims to a WP:BLP sourced only to The Sun [15] [16]. He also had to have it explained to him recently on WP:RSN that WP:ONUS is actually policy - David Gerard (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Please note, these (and those claimed above by Gerrard) are not "additions", they are simply reversions to the previous status quo. Gerrard's deletion policy contravenes the discussion above, and the complete mess he is making is unwarranted. We also don't need him to edit war over the fact that The Sun awarded a best album accolade. This is now well into the realms of disruptive editing. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Adding a deprecated source to an article - including re-adding one, or edit-warring to keep one in - is prima facie an edit against the general consensus that the source is deprecated. It's not actually just fine, and you're attempting to re-litigate the concept of deprecation of sources here - David Gerard (talk) 21:22, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Stop making things up please Gerrard. Restoring the status quo is not "adding a deprecated source" per your earlier claims. And as you have been advised probably a dozen times now, your dicdef of "deprecation" isn't what is given in the DEPS "information" page. And your accusations about my motivation need explanation per WP:ADMINACCT. Provide evidence that I'm here to support The Sun, and do it quickly. Ironically Gerrard has only just (in the previous few hours) starting quoting ONUS although in most cases it doesn't apply anyway. The examples he has given for the John Wark article have existing consensus through the WP:FAC process which ensures high quality content throughout Wikipedia. At no point did Gerrard seek to discuss any controversial or disputed content (and he has yet to provide any evidence that his edits do constitute the highlighting of such), nor did the esteemed reviewers at FAC raise any concerns. The normal course of action would, of course, be to highlight areas of concern and allow editors to do their best to address them. The Gerrard method was to simply purge the content with a false edit summary. Enough said. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:35, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Having said "enough said", it should now be clear that Gerrard needs to stop the meatbot "ban" purge on the WP:DEPS sources using false scare edit summaries until this has been resolved. I would hope he has the integrity to do that at least while we understand where it's all gone so wrong and messy. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:44, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The Rambling Man, have you ever considered stating your case neutrally, as a lifestyle choice? It might work better here. Guy (help!) 01:45, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

---

• David Gerard and I both remove deprecated sources from biographies and other articles. The clue here is: deprecated. We do not deprecate a source unless it is untrustworthy. That doesn't mean that everything it publishes is a lie, but it does mean that enough of it is false or misleading that we cannot trust it. That is the starting point.

A small number of people, notably the OP, have resisted deprecation from the outset and have complained whenever any effort to remove deprecated sources is undertaken. There is little doubt in my mind that a subset of editors do not believe we should deprecate these sources at all. That is an opinion they are allowed to have, but consensus as established at WP:RSN is clear. If they want to demonstrate that consensus is in fact against deprecation, disputing the actions of individual editors is not the way to do it. Some people appear to view source removal as tantamount to deletionism. I do not subscribe to that view.

I have been through several iterations of my process, receiving feedback at RSN along the way. Based on these discussions here is what I currently do:

1. If a deprecated source is redundant to other sources for a specific fact, I remove it. The text remains, and remains sourced. I don't think anyone has ever complained about that though I could be wrong.
2. If a deprecated source is in External Links I will usually remove it. Example: blogs and personal websites not of the subject. A few people have complained about this in respect of specific sources. I can remember two. In both cases, it was asserted that they were reliable and widely cited by reputable authorites, in both cases the people opposing removal promised to provide evidence of this, in neither cases was the evidence forthcoming, but in both cases I removed them from my list anyway. So I only remove these links when they are of a type that is, by consensus, not reliable sources but are subject to good faith challenge.
3. So now we come to what is, I guess, about 2/3 of cases: the deprecated source is the only source for a specific fact. I have by now been told with equal force that (a) I must remove the txt along with the source; (b) I must leave the txt and tag it {{citation needed}}; (c) I must not remove the source unless I, personally, find a replacement, putting the burden on me to fix someone's sourcing error. So based on multiple discussions, what I do is:
   1. If the source supports a potentially contentious fact (e.g. about family or marital issues in a WP:BLP) I manually check for a better source and replace it if one is readily available, otherwise I delete the text.
   2. If the source is for something trivial (e.g. date of joining a football team) I tag as needing improvement, for example with {{deprecated inline}}.
   3. If the source is for a sky-is-blue statement or is one of several sources that support the content (e.g. Bob did X[1], after which Y happened[2], and [2] covers both events) I remove it.

I use AWB, largely because the regex makes it vastly easier but also because I have C7 radiculopathy and it maximises the ability to work by keyboard rather than mouse.

The classes of sources I remove are:

• Predatory open access journals;
• Books published via vanity press (Lulu, XLibris, iUniverse, Author House, Trafford Publishing at this point), other than by the subject of the article;
• Deprecated sources per WP:RSP, e.g. Breitbart, the Daily Mail, WorldNetDaily, InfoWars, Mintpress, Life Site News);

The good news is that mostly we're dealing with a legacy problem. Edit filters have been created that warn against addition of most of these sources, and these have substantially reduced the levels of addition. But we still have thousands of articles, including biographies, referenced to sources we have agreed as a community are not appropriate.

It's a bit like being the sysadmin for the company mail server. Nobody ever comes by and says thanks when it's working well. In this case most of the complaints often feel as if they come from people who think we should be using fax instead. But there you are. Guy (help!) 22:16, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• "David Gerard and I both remove deprecated sources from biographies and other articles."

Yes, and you do it in bulk, carelessly, without per-item editorial judgement, over-riding the views of any editor who disagrees, and most of all against the decisions made for WP:DAILYMAIL et al., which have been against doing just that.

Then, you continually lie (you make untrue statements of fact against other editors) to describe those opposing you as either "opposing deprecation" or "supporting The Sun". No-one is against this deprecation, they are against your excessive and unconsidered response to it. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:21, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Mr Gerard, your comments here continue the persistent disparaging untruths which have characterised your comments throughout this RSN argument.

Let's just take a look at the "additions" of which you complain – except they're not additions, they're simply trying to maintain an existing and long-stable status quo against these hasty, unsupported and poorly executed removals:

• Skibidi - you chop a self-evident, almost trite, description of the song's video in half, merely to remove a Sun citation. What you leave behind no longer makes sense.
• Block-setting crane – this very cite was discussed a year ago, at the WP:DAILYMAIL RfC discussion, and was cited there as a very example of what was wrong with this sort of simplistic blanket removal. You requested WP:ONUS on keeping it, yet that was already done a year before you removed it (twice). You clearly have no respect for any sort of consensus decision arrived at, merely your own opinion has to win.
• Hijab & Hijab Firstly, after some examination, it seems that even The Daily Mail can't be wrong all the time. They've taken two sets of independent photographs from years ago and reproduced them, for once without bias or blaming Jeremy Corbyn. So I restored this, not so much as WP:V but as EL, linking to a resource of value that we can't host for ourselves. In the second case, after you'd removed it again, I switched these sources to the non- deprecated non-DM sources, from which the DM had obtained them. But those were removed forthwith too as "You can't be serious.". Andy Dingley (talk) 22:17, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

JzG I don't know why you felt a need to restart the thread, but we'll go from here. Patronising people by telling them "deprecated" is the "clue" is pathetic. You're not dealing with newbies here. And the claims being made are nonsense. I'm even seeing citations for awards been given by The Sun cited by the newspaper being removed as unreliable. You must be kidding? The good news here is that some of us are standing up to the nonsensical purging which is arbitrary and leaving behind a complete mess with its half-arsed implementation. Regurgitating what you think is the essence of DEPS is a waste of time. The meatbot approach to essentially attempting to BAN The Sun and others is actually directly contradictory to the advice we have codified. So stop doing it. And for those of you who keep making false assertions about it in edit summaries, STOP DOING THAT TOO! The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 22:25, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The Rambling Man, Oh FFS, don't be a snowflake. Do you know how many sources are deprecated, rather than just not recommended? It's a very short list. The list is comprised almost exclusively of sources that have a documented history of fabrication. WP:RS would seem to be at odds with that, and has been canon since before I joined. Please try to acknowledge at least the possibility that we're trying to improve the encyclopaedia, eh? Guy (help!) 23:00, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

don't be a snowflake? Perfect admin response. Well done you. I think you've said enough already, but feel free to further opine. Of course I'm fully aware of which sources are deemed deprecated, and indeed, and importantly, what that actually means per the definition given in Wikipedia. Feel free to attempt to patronise me once more, but I would recommend you focus more on the substance of the matter than continuing to make personal attacks. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 23:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The Rambling Man, I wasn't aware that replying to a personal comment on a topic that does not involve use of admin powers was an "admin response". YLSED. Guy (help!) 23:37, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I think you probably already know that we hold admins to a higher standard, and saying "oh for fuck's sake, don't be a snowflake" falls very short of that standard. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 08:45, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• The argument stems from disagreement over how to “enforce“ deprecation. What makes it actionable is if someone is going on a “crusade” to enforce our “rules”. “Crusading” is always disruptive, even when enforcing the “rules”. Blueboar (talk) 23:18, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

  Blueboar, not even enforce really - we do that through edit filters, and that seems to work rather well. Anyone who tries to add a deprecated source is warned, they can then click through if they want, and then the edit gets reviewed off the back of the logs. This is almost entirely about (a) disputing the entire deprecation business altogether and (b) disputing retrospective enactment of deprecation. Guy (help!) 01:24, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• Uninvolved comment. I saw this come up at RSN and chimed in there to remind editors WP:ONUS is indeed policy, and those wanting to add the sources (or readd) need to gain consensus for that since the use is obviously disputed. The Rambling Man's responses here and here did not impress me at all and indicates some pretty strong battleground behavior on their part as well especially with this response to me: Hey? Suddenly you're looking for a consensus to include a source rather than exclude a source? You have it completely arse-about-face. We have never looked for a consensus to include any specific source.. . In addition to that hot-headeness, that really looks like thumbing one's nose at ONUS policy to the point my brief interactions have me thinking removing TRM from this topic might decrease disruption significantly due to the inflammatory comments leading to walls of text.

I see TRM had a lot of troubles at AE, though aside from my brief RSN interaction, I don't know any history about sanctions there or which of those warnings are considered "current", but edit summaries like this seem to be continuing those problems. I don't have to the time to assess further whether their behavior here is a one-off or instead at the end of WP:ROPE.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what other administrative actions can be done here. If someone is trying to game WP:ONUS by reinserting the sources without gaining consensus, that is edit warring and blockable. In some examples above (hard to find in the wall of text) Andy Digley provides examples of themselves ignoring onus policy.[17][18] (i.e., finding errors in an edit isn't an excuse to blanket revert). I can't find comments from TRM or Digley trying to get consensus to reinclude the sources on the either of those talk pages either. I'm not finding anything actionable on David Gerard's part though since they are following onus policy, and any perceived mistake on their part doesn't justify what TRM and Digley had been doing. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:12, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

For a much needed tl;dr though, everyone needs to follow WP:ONUS, which should cut through all this extra drama I'm seeing above gumming up the works. If you get consensus on a given page to use the source, then do so. If you don't have consensus, it stays out per that policy. If that can't be followed, then it's clear some preventative measures are needed to stop the edit warring and the battleground behavior I've been seeing from TRM and Digley above. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:12, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• "Uninvolved"? Grudge much?

As to the block-setting crane ref and ONUS, that was literally the poster child at the Daily Mail RfC for an example of a justified DM ref. Over a year ago. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:45, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

That "grudge" comment doubling down on battleground behavior is concerning. I was uninvolved when I commented at that most recent RSN where you hadn't even commented. I was also uninvolved when I came into that ANI you link, especially in regards to you, and noticed battleground behavior problems there when I made my only comments there. That your behavior is an issue again doesn't make those who noticed it before WP:INVOLVED even for non-admins who comment at behavior boards. WP:BOOMERANG definitely applies here if those problems continue. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:07, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The_Rambling_Man#The_Rambling_Man_prohibited indeed - David Gerard (talk) 23:40, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the relevance of that well-publicised situation to this case where your purging edits equivalent to trying to ban The Sun result in the direct introduction of errors. You replaced a source which you claimed can't be trusted with one that you (I assume) believe to be reliable, yet the former was reliable and the latter was incorrect. And it appears your understanding of football transfers is not commensurate with the reality of the situation, particularly in regard to loan players. And this, sadly, exemplifies one major aspect of the problem. You are making sweeping edits, leaving either a mess or simply introducing false information into Wikipedia, despite what you have been reminded of numerous times, that the source you are purging is considered reliable by some editors for sports reporting. This sadly is just one example demonstrating that we now have to check each and every one of your edits while you continue to introduce errors and incorrect sources into Wikipedia. I really think you need to consider your position. Are you open to recall? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 17:09, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

You have now just removed perfectly citable material (ironically cited in the next reference) which was easily found (in the very next reference). I would advise you to stop purging Wikipedia of valid information please. Checking these kinds of edits is highly time-consuming, and despite multiple requests for you to desist, you continue to do so against even basic editing norms, let alone in your position as an admin. Please desist. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 17:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• I have a simple question for @Andy Dingley:: You state above in your initial explanation of the dispute in question, that "Two editors have been carrying out 2 / 3 here" where 2/3 refer to "blanket removal" of sources and content from articles. You've asserted this as having happened several times, both in this discussion and in prior discussions. Can you present some evidence of it? That is, can you show a series of diffs or patch of editing history that show that the editors in question are engaging in that behavior? It would go a long way towards help others understand the nature of the problem, and be able to comment on the behavior itself. If there is widespread behavior, we need to see evidence of such. Both of the editors (who are unnamed in your initial complaint, but we probably have a sense of who they are) have said that isn't the way they operate, here and in other discussions, but so far you've repeatedly asserted that they do. Can you provide some diffs showing that they are, in fact, doing as you describe? --Jayron32 17:36, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• I don't really know or care about the history of this problem, but just a quick glimpse at the contributions of David Gerard will show you the blanket removals that are happening right now, despite multiple requests to stop from multiple editors. Often (and this is the best case) the text is preserved but a bare URL is introduced. Sometimes (and this is happening more frequently), information is just removed, along with the purge on The Sun as a source. Sadly, and what is happening lately, is the removal of text despite other references in the article verifying it, or even worse, the introduction of false information based on inaccurate sources. All the name of the blanket purge on The Sun. Which isn't codified in any consensus that I'm aware of. The end result is that some of us are having to check each and every edit from this admin to ensure that false information is not being added, nor is valid information being removed. In a meatbot sense. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 17:44, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  I've checked about 4-5 and I don't see any major issues. The Sun was deprecated as a source; and in the cases I just looked at, either a) he removed it when there was already a better source alongside it b) he removed it and replaced it with a non-deprecated source, sometimes altering the text to better match what the non-deprecated source said or c) he removed it and also removed some text, but usually the removed text was of spurious utility to begin with (WP:TRIVIA and the like). I haven't seen any unambiguous problems, indeed, most of them seem like uncontroversial clean up. I mean, if you want to spend your time checking up on him, I don't see why you have to. I don't see any evidence of problems in his recent edits you just directed me to. I notice above you raise issue with one of his recent edits, but I wouldn't say the removal is unambiguously bad. --Jayron32 17:56, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  You checked four or five? Brilliant work. Gerrard is doing about four or five every five or ten minutes. You didn't see a problem with his introduction of factually incorrect material using in inaccurate source? Wow, just wow. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 00:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

  Yep. The thing I keep finding over and over is when about half the Wikipedia wording is supported in multiple sources - but some really interesting quirk of wording in the article is only supported by the Sun. Sports, celebrity, TV shows, all manner of subjects. In such cases, I assume the Sun is doing what the Sun does - jazzing stuff up, i.e. making stuff up, to make it more interesting. This is why it's deprecated, and this is why editors who insist on putting deprecated sources in on Wikipedia articles - as our logorrheic Sun/DM crusaders here do - are behaving in a problematic manner. When you only have the Sun as a reference for a given fact - you don't have a reference. Never trust the Sun - David Gerard (talk) 18:47, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  "crusaders"? Are you open to recall? I'd say "never trust David Gerrard" ahead of "never trust the Sun". You proved the point perfectly earlier today when you actively removed The Sun as a correct source and replaced it with an inaccurate source and completely false information. It may be that you lack the expertise to edit in certain areas of Wikipedia, which is fine because none of us can be brilliant at everything, but the suggestion that you believe your own "crusade" against The Sun is justified when you are introducing errors into Wikipedia as an admin is beyond belief. You have no reasonable defence for removing facts and replacing them with errors. This is a symptom of someone doing something they should not be doing. So, please, STOP. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 00:34, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• @Jayron - to stick with what's already here, take a look at Skibidi vs. Skibidi, where it has been cut to half of its size. These [19] [20] were what literally triggered posting here. One is a pretty obvious statement, sourceable by anywhere covering pop culture (if we cover pop culture at all, we are inevitably going to be using sources that aren't as solid as the London Gazette). The second of these also sliced a description of the video in half, making it nonsensical. You could source that much per BLUESKY even from LittleBig's own YouTube. Again, if you want a pop culture source, take your pick. But when pressed to choose between Hello magazine and The Sun, there's never going to be much in it. Then when this thread opened, Mr Gerard went for it and sliced the whole article in half. [21] Now you might say, "Skibidi is a trivial topic unworthy of an encyclopedia" and you'd have a point, for encyclopedias which hadn't written WP:N the way we chose to. Also, 135 pageviews/day, a year after the song came out, isn't bad going. This is not editing to improve the encyclopedia. This is blinkered editing, to remove a particular source at any cost, and also the content which it had been supporting.

When we see a slab of red like this, [22], when is that ever a good thing?

Look at this one on Brian Cox, "replace deprecated source with RS" (Scottish Sun with Guardian). Lovely, who could possibly question that? Except that the Gruadian ref is from four years later and presents a significantly different viewpoint on Cox's politics in Scotland than what it's supposed to be supporting. This is tick-box editing, with no editorial aspect to it. We could have 'bots do it no worse than this.

Then we get the simple stuff like this "remove and replace deprecated source" (the Mail used for sport, which has already been put forward as an area where it's not so biased). But "replace" doesn't mean, "remove and tag as {{cn}} unsourced", as was done here. That's just a false edit summary.

This post was made in response to Gerard's edits, rather than Guy's. Most of them in the last few days are removing the Sun from articles where it' barely clear we ought to be having that article, which is less of an issue than those involving the Mail. But Guy's go back further and have deeper problems, particularly the RSN page claims, "I will just tag them (1)" and then doing the opposite of stripping them (2 & 3). Andy Dingley (talk) 15:47, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Genesis of the dispute

Reviewing past history it seems that this goes back to August 2011: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 102 § Publisher" on a Weebly site and the comment beginning "The editor is carrying out a 'bot-like bulk edit removing any content that pattern-matches a URL indicating that a web site (of any content quality) has been hosted through Weebly. This claims justification through the no-blogs policy of WP:ELNO." It's somewhat surprising that after more than eight years of complaining about this exact issue - systematic removal of sources based on binary assessment of the site's reliability - the OP has yet to come up with a solution other than complaining every time it happens. I know he has friends here, can someone maybe help him to initiate some process whose conclusion we can all get behind? Guy (help!) 00:18, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

I and many others have repeatedly asked Andy to make a case. If his opinions are supported in policy, it should be a slam-dunk by now. Many of us have suggested WP:ANI as a venue, for example. But here will do - Andy, can you or can you not make a coherent, policy-based case against JzG's actions? Your continued choice of extended personal attacks, and wasting other editors' time by repeatedly edit-warring in deprecated sources, is an inferior alternative for working with others, as surely you must understand - David Gerard (talk) 23:23, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Mr Gerard, there is a large section at the top of this which both of you have studiously ignored, and have persisted instead in making false descriptions of other editors as "Supporting the Sun", "Opposing deprecation" etc, none of which has any truth to it - but IDHT, yet again. This is about your edits, and Guy's edits, which although not identical are both making massive runs of unconsidered removals of refs (cases 2 & 3 in the comments at the start). Yet neither of these are supported by DEPS, DAILYMAIL or any consensus at RSN. Guy, in particular, has repeatedly claimed that he is only doing 1. (tagging), yet persists in these bulk removals.

You keep refusing to address the issue here: you are both acting way beyond the agreement of WP:DAILYMAIL, and you are using every tactic possible to deflect from this. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:12, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

In short: No, then. --Calton | Talk 04:10, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Other discussions

There's an ongoing discussion about the use of newspapers as sources at WP:V. This discussion should be folded into that one rather than being yet another fork. The main issue for AN should be the use of admin tools and, per WP:INVOLVED, it seems obvious that admins should not be using their tools to enforce their own personal opinions about this matter. Andrew D. (talk) 00:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

The trouble with "they shouldn't" is that admins are a fleet in being: they still have the capability to block other editors for disagreeing with them, and in this case, both have already threatened to do that. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:55, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

If you mean me, please show me the diff(s) and the words therein where I threatened to block you. I'm pretty sure this didn't happen. If you mean other admins, please show the board the diff(s) and the words therein where they threatened to block you - being specific will be the most useful contribution here. I even supplied one above for you - David Gerard (talk) 23:24, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Still waiting on this one - please substantiate your claim - David Gerard (talk) 18:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Still waiting on if you are open to recall. Please, per WP:ADMINACCT, let the community know. Thanks. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 00:36, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Requesting IBAN

I'd like to request a two-way IBAN between myself and Andy Dingley, please. I cannot recall a single example of any interaction between the two of us that has ever improved either of our understanding of anything, or moved towards a productive resolution of any dispute. In every case where one is present in a discussion and the other arrives, the result is increased heat, the impression of furtherance of long-standing grudges, and ill-temper. Guy (help!) 22:21, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose If you can't curb your own foul mouth, then that's your problem, not mine.

Also, you will use this to silence opposition to your against-consensus edits, as you have previously attempted to do with persistent threats of blocks simply for disagreeing with you. A tactic which you were so egregious at using that even Mr Gerard has taken to quoting it (as noted already on this page). Andy Dingley (talk) 22:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• I'd also note that you're required to notify other editors of discussions such as this. Instead posting warnings to the wrong page might be a small matter, but it's indicative of your edits throughout this: you just don't give a damn about accuracy of anything. You're happy to make edits which "remove the Daily Mail", even if there's a bunch of collateral damage that you missed. And woe betide any editor who then complains of that. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:26, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

  Andy Dingley, And there you ahve the perfect example. You are obviously aware, you nioted that I mis-typed ANI-notice instead of NA-notuice, and you're making a Federal case of it. I rest my case. Guy (help!) 23:02, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, as I pointed out it's a pretty trivial mistake. But you keep making them. Especially when you're in a seconds-each run to remove the Daily Mail, and you end up stripping out other things too. After which you just walk away – never any interest in cleaning them up afterwards. If you're going to claim god-like powers, you're expected to achieve similar rates of accuracy. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:19, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose although it appears that perhaps JzG should have a one-way IBAN implemented as it's clear that there's a problem in that direction. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 22:27, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

  The Rambling Man, interesting idea. Last time we clashed I stopped commenting on him, but he continued commenting on me, continuing to raise the thread above. How does that fit with your narrative? Guy (help!) 23:03, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

  I don't have a "narrative" here. It strikes me that the best course of action for Wikipedia is that you are IBAN-ed from Andy. Your commentary is single-mindedly disruptive in this case and without any real backing in policy, your approach is disruptive and aggressive, and I feel sorry that Andy has had to put up with your vitriol. Which you now seem to have moved onto me. So I would recommend that you are banned from interacting with Andy in the first instance, and perhaps with a view to extending it further should your misbehaviour continue. Oh, and stop pinging me please. I'm watching all the threads I'm talking in, and the other 9000+ articles, no need to irritate the situation further/ The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 23:10, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The Rambling Man, I almost wish I understood how you got there from my, at that point, single post explaining what I am doing and how, but in the end I think I am probably glad I don't. Guy (help!) 23:32, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support. Normally I'd say oppose when no diffs are presented at all (I do suggest adding diffs to demonstrate how widespread the problem is to justify it more), but there are clear battleground behavior issues with the above opposes even here or in the section above (should this request be nested within that as a subsection?) that is already convincing. If Guy still voluntarily wants the ban to be on their end too to keep things simpler, it's fine making it two-way instead of one-way. I remember having to caution Digley about hounding another editor at ANI not long ago, so I'm concerned that I'm seeing such pursuit of battleground behavior from them again. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:30, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: I notice that JzG's notification of Andy of this attempt to sanction him pointed to a non-existent discussion on ANI. I trust that this is just an unfortunate error. Please be more careful - the editors in question appear to have found this discussion, but less experienced editors may not have done.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Nigel Ish, yes, it was a typing error. My bad. I acknowledge it above, but it's irrelevant as Andy Dingley was here anyway per the above thread. Guy (help!) 23:29, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support ban on Andy interacting with JzG, per Kingofaces43. JzG's offering to also refrain to interact, which shows good faith - David Gerard (talk) 23:26, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support interaction ban on Andy Dingley (first choice) or Support two-way interaction ban (second choice). Andy Dingley writes If you can't curb your own foul mouth, then that's your problem, not mine: nope Andy Dingley is, in fact, the problem here. --Calton | Talk 03:00, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

So you reckon it's OK for Guy to call me a c*nt? Sorry, but our standards have slipped lately on such, but not that far. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:09, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

I reckon that you're playing the victim and failing badly. I reckon that you are almost guaranteed to parachute into any discussion whatsoever involving Guy's actions with some standard whinging about how Guy is a terrible person and/or why the Daily Mail and other shitty UK tabloids are, somehow, not-shitty. I reckon that putting words in my mouth is such bad faith that it is convincing me only of the notion that maybe a topic ban for you should be extended to cover ALL admin boards. --Calton | Talk 04:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• You don't get to complain of "putting words in your mouth" when you keep repeating the false claim that "other shitty UK tabloids are, somehow, not-shitty." That is not what this is about. It says so right at the start of the post. Stop misrepresenting this complaint like that.

How Guy edits is up to him. But stripping the amount of content he is doing is not supported by the RfCs he claims. That's the point here. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• You don't get to complain of "putting words in your mouth"...
• Why yes, I do, when you're doing exactly that. Screaming whataboutisms doesn't change that you are, in fact, putting words in my mouth.
• ...when you keep repeating the false claim that "other shitty UK tabloids are, somehow, not-shitty."
• I'm going by your long-time, observed behavior. Not my problem that you don't like it.
• That is not what this is about. It says so right at the start of the post.
• You mean you JzG asking for an interaction ban, which is, you know, what it says at the start of the post? Or do you mean your clumsy attempt at some sort of gotcha to my opinion -- surely a persuasive bit of rhetoric that will change my mind -- by putting words in my mouth? SOMEBODY'S misrepresenting here, but it ain't me. --Calton | Talk 15:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose As I understand it, JzG is using automated tools such as AWB to find and change articles which use newspapers of which he disapproves, such as the Daily Express, for example. This newspaper has a long rich history and featured many topics which British editors might be interested in such as Rupert the Bear, Beachcomber or the work of Henry Williamson and would naturally cover many aspects of British culture such as the Boat Race. That newspaper has had a significant decline in recent years and so is not now what it was. I get the impression that the matter is a case of WP:RECENTISM in which current affairs are given undue weight over history, contrary to WP:NOTNEWS.

The AWB activity seems likely to keep bringing JzG into conflict with other editors such as Andy Dingley or TRM when articles that they are working on or watching are affected by this indiscriminate activity. An interaction ban would require that JzG stop doing such wide sweeps but I don't get the impression that this is his plan. A ban would therefore tend to exacerbate the issue rather than resolving it as each side would claim that the other had violated it or was gaming it. Andrew D. (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Andrew Davidson, You misunderstand. The Express is not on my list. The only sites on my list are those with consensus to deprecate, so this is not my personal dislike, it's based on WP:RSP. See my extensive description above. David is not using AWB and is getting exactly the same, and the first example I found, 8 years ago, and a completely different editor, was also manual editing. The issue is that Andy Dingley and presumably also TRM do not accept that deprecation means retrospective removal of sources, and they are choosing to settle the question by arguing time after time with individual editors who are doing it. It doesn't help when there is a long history between editors, that makes onlookers discount the issue as yet another grudge match. Guy (help!) 10:49, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• t Andy Dingley and presumably also TRM do not accept that deprecation means retrospective removal of sources,

Right up at the start of this posting, you can see a statement of much the same thing. Except it's not the same – we're against bulk, unconsidered removal of those sources. Often a removal which is automated or semi-automated. And our point is that WP:DEPS and WP:DAILYMAIL agrees with us: community consensus, other than about three editors (two of you noted here), has not supported that blanket removal.

Daily Express is in the RSNP list, the Guardian and the Telegraph have been discussed similarly, although not with any support. I've not seen anyone removing Express refs as yet. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:15, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

I certainly don't see anywhere that states that a blanket removal of any use of deprecated sources has consensus. Initially we were pointed at WP:DEPS, which categorically states (1) deprecation doesn't mean a ban (2) deprecated sources can be used under some circumstances and (3) The Sun (for instance) has specific cases where its use is considered reliable. What I'm experiencing now is that David Gerrard is removing The Sun as if it was banned. And in doing so is removing valid content, is introducing errors, and is not considering the content itself. I'm even seeing awards given by The Sun being removed by this user, I don't see that in any sense as a valid interpretation of DEPS. Also, I do note that Gerrard is cycling through various reasons to remove The Sun until he can settle on one which might apply in each case, edit warring to achieve this. I find it hard to believe this is considered acceptable from an admin, so I've asked him if he's open to recall. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 17:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Andrew Davidson I urge you to examine Andy Dingley's behaviour in this section: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#News_of_the_World Rather than talk about the issue at hand at all, he goes off into an extended personal attack on JzG. Multiple editors (including me) ask him to either substantiate his claims against JzG in an appropriate venue - several of us specifically suggest ANI - or stop making them; and, in any case, please talk about the subject matter of the RSN board itself. Andy responds to JzG at one point "But you're an admin, so you're immune at ANI and there's no point wasting my time there." - which, to me, sounds functionally indistinguishable from admitting that he really doesn't have an actionable case. He did not desist in ongoing personal attacks, continuing at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#What_(exactly)_does_"Deprecation"_mean? where he continues to make accusations against JzG but at no point actually making a case, despite repeated requests to either do so or desist in the continued personal attacks. There is not an equivalence of behaviour here - it seems clear that Andy will continue to behave in this manner unless and until injuncted not to - David Gerard (talk) 23:19, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Please do read Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#News_of_the_World Especially the section where I complain of Guy's editing yet again going off the rails because he is in such a hurry to "remove Fox news" that he ends up removing two RS (BBC & Reuters) instead and re-adding the Fox News ref himself.

• This is why I see Guy as not being a suitable editor to do this type of bulk removal: Trump–Ukraine scandal just this evening:

• 1RR: "Reverted good faith edits by WoodElf (talk): Not good sources, especially Fox News"
• 2RR: "Reverted good faith edits by WoodElf (talk): This is rouced to Fox News. At the very least that needs consensus on Talk. See WP:BRD."
• (improving sourcing)
• " it had already reached the point where unpicking it is not easy, and in any case it's better to discuss sourcing - especially crappy sources like Fox - on Talk, as I have done."

Also WP:ANI: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#WoodElf and RS

This is a long-standing problem with Guy's edits in this vein, and that is why I have had a long-standing complaint against it. I am still waiting for either of you to address the points at the start of this posting: why do you think that bulk removal of source and content is OK, when WP:DAILYMAIL specifically rejected that as the way to proceed. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:32, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support one-way Iban, per KingofAces43. Dismissing Andrew Davidson's suggestion wholesale, as he is effectively claiming that someone acting on a community consensus should expect anything between irritating and provocation for doing so. Indeed, this seems to be a perennial attempt at relitigating WP:DAILYMAIL. ——SN54129 11:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• @Closing admin: please note the quantity of WP:BLUDGEON, with additional material from Disingenuity, from a singular party. ——SN54129 11:26, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
• Where is the community consensus for these bulk removals? It's not in WP:DAILYMAIL. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:15, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support one-way ban of Andy Dingley interacting with JzG. Judging from the comment by Andy Dingley of 22:23, 24 November 2019 above, there is clearly a significant problem with the conduct of Andy Dingley. I have no basis for saying the same about the conduct of JzG, and would be surprised if there would be issues warranting interaction-banning him. Sandstein 14:17, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello Sandstein, I wonder whatever brought you here? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:35, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello Andy Dingley, I wonder why you rely upon insinuation instead making direct statements you have to stand behind? --Calton | Talk 04:22, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support one-way ban of Andy Dingley interacting with JzG. Per all above ... ∯WBG^converse 06:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
• Maybe a AWB ban would solve the problem altogether without the need for an IBAN. Agathoclea (talk) 12:57, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Andy isn't using AWB to make extended personal attacks, so this is unlikely to stop those happening - David Gerard (talk) 14:16, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
  • No, it's the meatbot-esque purging which makes it look like Gerrard is using AWB. Maybe he is, who knows. Andy is not disrupting Wikipedia in this way. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 17:14, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

    The Rambling Man, if you want to establish that consensus to deprecate a source does not include consensus to remove it from biographies and other articles, you are free to start an RfC. Guy (help!) 23:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

    How many times have I told you not to ping me? And no, I'm happy for you to refer me to the RFC which established that the deprecated sources noted in DEPS must be purged from all articles, not just BLPs, which is exactly what Gerrard is doing. Show me the consensus for that and I'll happily apologise and move on. In the meantime, do let me know when you'd like to apologise for your outbursts, calling me a snowflake etc. And also show me the reasoning behind the clumsy error-strewn edits that Gerrard is making. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 00:09, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support one-way ban against Andy Dingley (first choice) or two-way ban (second choice). For a long time now, across a variety of venues, Andy Dingley's negative comments about JzG have been rude, highly personalized, and unwarranted. I can think of several recent discussions where the preponderance of Andy Dingley's comments had little to do with the matter at hand, and were primarily about JzG, and of Andy's personal interpretation of JzG's motives. The kind of vitriolic speculation of that nature has no place at Wikipedia, and should be put to a stop. --Jayron32 17:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support one-way ban against Andy Dingley or a two-way ban if the first is not supported. Some reasonable points have been made about mass removals but they are buried within the indignant noise that accompanies Andy Dingley. If JzG is a problem, someone else can report it. Johnuniq (talk) 22:44, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support one-way interaction ban against Andy Dingley. The orderly and careful removal of deprecated sources is a great service to the encylopedia, and editors like JzG who do this work should receive barnstars and other plaudits, not the type of dogged opposition that Andy Dingley too often offers up. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• The orderly and careful removal of deprecated sources is a great service to the encylopedia,

No-one is against that. But that's not what Guy is doing. His edits are neither orderly nor careful, they're an over-hasty blanket stripping, with an unacceptably high error rate. He will even go to ANI and castigate other editors (WoodElf) for edits they hadn't made, and that he hadn't "fixed". Andy Dingley (talk) 15:50, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support one-way interaction ban against Andy Dingley. I can't put it better than Cullen328; I agree with every word he says. Bishonen | talk 05:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC).
• Support two-way interaction ban as per Guy's request. I oppose a one way ban as unfair under the circumstances. There does seem to be long term bad blood between these editors that would be reduced by an interection ban. Govindaharihari (talk) 07:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support one-way interaction ban against Andy Dingley per most of the above. Fram (talk) 08:05, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support one-and-a-half-way interaction ban- That is, I agree with a one-way ban against Andy Dingley and would strongly expect JzG to adhere to it as well. But I'd also give Guy a lot of benefit of doubt in borderline or ambiguous situations. Reyk _YO! 08:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Reeks of censorship. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support one-way interaction ban against Andy Dingley Some of the linked discussions above would have been far more productive and wasted a lot less time had Andy not been disruptive (the endless whinging over the definition of depreciation for example). Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• "endless whinging"? As opposed to ploughing blindly on, just so that WP:FAIT can take effect? We have a definition of deprecation, it's in WP:DEPS and it's echoed into WP:DAILYMAIL. Guy's edits are against both. Now Guy's an admin, so I asked politely if we could agree what "deprecation" was actually going to mean in the WP context first. But if the mop had been on the other foot? Anyone else does it and going that far outside a policy or RfC gets blocks.

I'm sorry that discussion and a search for clarity is seen as "disruptive" in today's WP. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support one-way interaction ban against Andy Dingley. I find it difficult to understand why AD and TRM seem to support the use of such crappy sources in this project. In fact it beggars belief. C'mon guys. -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 17:50, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Please tell me this: where does "support the use of such crappy sources in this project" come from? No-one here is supporting their use. But we already have their use, whether we like it or not, and I'm just against making things worse by a poor process for removing them. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

It comes from this thread, which I had just read. I defy anybody to conclude otherwise. -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 18:50, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

No, that's complete nonsense. I think both of us object to the manner in which the deprecation is being implemented, not about specific sources. It would be more appropriate to not make completely inaccurate guesses at our motivations when you clearly are so far off the mark it's remarkable. C'mon guy. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 19:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose – From what I've seen of the disputes between these two, it's just content-related. Sometimes heated, but still just content. Maybe if there were actually some diffs of something I haven't already seen, I could change my opinion, but as it stands, I oppose. If there is an interaction ban, a fair, workable two-way ban is the right option. LoosingIt (talk) 18:35, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

AIV

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Is getting a little crowded. GMG^talk 00:55, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

GreenMeansGo, thanks, sorted some. Bro, Y U NO ADMIN? Seems weird to have to call for a putz like me when you have Clue in abundance. Guy (help!) 01:22, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Oh I've got my own adminning to take care of. GMG^talk 01:34, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Bantu peoples in South Africa

Would someone take care of the three move requests at Talk:Bantu peoples in South Africa. Requested move 14 November 2019, Requested move 22 November 2019 and Requested move 24 November 2019. I move protected it because Untrammeled couldn't figure out what the name should be. See my comments here. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 14:52, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Abusive behavior - Shared accounts

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi, I'm a non regular user here, but I wish to inform you about Celette (last edition in 2015). She has announced on the French village pump that this account is shared by 5 different people since the inception of the account. On french Wp, there's no rules about this kind of abuse, but I notice that here,it is not accepted: Wikipedia:SHAREDACCOUNT. I think this user should be ban. --Idéalités (talk) 15:11, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for reporting. I speak French, and I was able to confirm that this is a self-confessed WP:ROLEACCOUNT, so I blocked indef. It does not matter much, however, since the account has less than 10 edits here.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:19, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

thank you --Idéalités (talk) 15:21, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Chevyweasley

Chevyweasley is a single-purpose account adding specific ELs to articles in violation of WP:EL, likely promoting that website. Should be blocked and all edits reverted. ɱ (talk) 02:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Done. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:39, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at WP:VPR that may be of interest

Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#On the use of deprecated sources for a discussion on how to treat deprecated sources. Please make proposals at that location (not here), and comment on any existing proposals that others have made. --Jayron32 19:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

WP:AIV backlog

Needs some eyes; several IPs continuing to vandalize/add unsourced info without anyone to block them or look at their edits. Nate • (chatter) 07:09, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Extended confirmed status removed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi, I recently gained a extended confirmed stats, however, it got removed because I "gamed the system". I was on over about 440 edits and made nonsense edits (which I have not done before up until I got about over 440 edits) until I got to 500 edits. I didn't believe or expect this to be wrong considering on the User access levels it says for extended confirmed users: A registered editor becomes 'extendedconfirmed' automatically when the account is both 30 days old and has made 500 edits (including deleted edits). Except for the recent nonsense edits (around 60), I have been regularly making appropriate edits and reverted vandalism/made corrections, therefore, I believe that with a extended confirmed status given back I can carry on bettering articles, even if it's minor edits/corrections. Isaacsorry (talk) 13:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Your editing has been more problematic than "appropriate". Your response to Laser brain, whom you failed to notify of this thread, regarding the removal of ECB was fatuous. I suggest you approach LB after some period of time has elapsed where you make constructive (not gaming edits on your Talk page) edits to the project to see if they will restore ECB. In the meantime, I don't see you have any basis to complain.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you please elaborate on the problematic edits that I've made as I genuinely do not believe I had made any. Also, I'm very aware of the nonsense edits and unfortunately I initially thought it would be a quicker way to just get to 500 edits, however, in hindsight I realise that it wasn't ideal to do that. Also regarding the "Not a warning instead?" reply to Laserbrain, I hope you don't think that it comes across as rude as I did not intend that, was just surprised that my extended confirmed status got instantly removed. Isaacsorry (talk) 13:44, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@Isaacsorry: The thing about ExCon is that it is the first, and mildest form of protection for many articles. As such, "gaming", as you did, calls into question why you would want to edit those particular articles, which, of course, are generally protected as a result of earlier disruption. Unfortunately natural, innocent eagerness to contribute generally fares poorly when it is backed only by cosmetic or otherwise meaningless edits.

Please also indent your replies where necessary; see WP:INDENT for details. ——SN54129 13:52, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I respect your view but regarding meaningless edits, I have to disagree there. On Michael Jackson there were a few corrections needed in the lead such as HIStory: Past, Present and Future, Book I not having its full name but instead just "HIStory". It also stated that Jackson's has the record American Music Awards which I removed following Taylor Swift's record-breaking wins. Isaacsorry (talk) 14:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

You made 60 pointless (AKA meaningless) edits to your talk for the express purpose of reaching EC status. That is the issue, not Michael Jackson or Taylor Swift. ——SN54129 14:27, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

(ec) To have 12% (60 edits) of the 500 edits to get EC be repeated adding and deleting white space of your User and User Talk page is most definitely gaming the system and not constructive. I concur with Bbb23 here, work on more constructive edits for a little while, THEN come back to see if the EC rights can be returned to you. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:54, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

(Multipl EC) I think it's fairly simple. We don't generally worry too much about how the editor made 500 edits, it's not like each editor is scrutinised to see that all their 500 edits were good edits. But when an editor is obviously gaming the system this is a problem and often does to them losing the flag. Note also that while we don't mind too much about edits to sandboxes or your own user page, making 60 nonsense edits just because you can. seems a bit much anyway and risks coming across as WP:disruptive editing even if we put aside the gaming intent. And nonsense edits to your talk page doesn't quite fall into that category since it makes it harder to look into the history. I'd finally note that an editor makes such a big deal including opening both an AN and Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Extended confirmed over losing ECP for their self-admitted gaming is itself a major red flag by my book. Nil Einne (talk) 14:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I understand why the nonsense edits are bad and considered as gaming the system. It was just a misinterpretation on my part as I believed that 500 edits (including deleted ones) would just allow me to get to 500 edits quicker in a 'clever' way by doing the nonsense edits. Isaacsorry (talk) 14:13, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

There's a substantial overlap between Isaacsorry, an account created on 2019-09-18, and Awardmaniac, an account blocked on 2019-09-05. This could plausibly account for why they were gaming the extended-confirmed setting, especially as I placed many of the articles targeted by Awardmaniac under extended-confirmed protection. Or it could be a coincidence. --Yamla (talk) 14:18, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The two users are  Unrelated.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:23, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

With gaming the system, I only did it once I got about 440 edits. Before that and after that (now), I did not and have not been doing it. It was a honest misinterpretation and now a learning curve on my part. Isaacsorry (talk) 14:31, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

You had EC status removed only yesterday, and you're not going to get it back the very next day after gaming the system the way you did. You need to do what several other people have already told you, and that's spend some time making constructive edits and then ask Laser brain if you can have the EC status back. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:27, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• If editors such as Isaacsorry want to rack up an arbitrary number of productive edits, they should consider emulating some of our more prodigious exemplars. Or they could just hang out at a noticeboard like this one for a while. That's "productive", right? See also the cobra effect. Andrew D. (talk) 16:51, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Isaacsorry - after losing EC for reaching it in an inappropriate way, you become subject to more concern than most editors, so more effort to show your reliability is needed. I suggest a few weeks with a good number of genuinely productive edits. Then ask Laser Brain. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:26, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rangeblock Review Request

• Special:Contributions/190.22.0.0/16

I would like to block this range for 2 weeks. It was previously blocked by NinjaRobotPirate for disruption to cartoon pages, which would be the reason for the new block. Given that it is a /16 and I'm new to this, I thought I would ask for second or third opinions on collateral damage before executing the block. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I think 190.22.0.0/17 would be a better choice, actually. There don't seem to be any edits to cartoons on 190.22.128.0/17. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:58, 27 November 2019 (UTC)