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SageRad

On hold until 26 November 2016, to run concurrently with a voluntary wikibreak by SageRad. Bishonen | talk 08:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning SageRad

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: SageRad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture#Standard_discretionary_sanctions : discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

SageRad is on a campaign against skepticism and for giving more credence to altmed, and this WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, civil as it may be, has been consistently disruptive on fringey medical and CAM topics like fad diets. The key issues are BLUDGEONing discussion with long soapbox-y rants against "skepticism" and for "Truth " -- a consistent behavior of using talk pages as forums, talking about "meta-issues", etc, instead of focused discussion on crafting content based on sources per policy and guidelines. He also misrepresents sources in the course of his arguments. In all of that, he fails to yield to consensus, and accuses other editors of lacking "integrity". His presence on these topics is just a tremendous time sink.

The issue goes back at least to SageRad's editing at David Gorski (a skeptic) in May 2015 (three article edits and 21 talk edits) which led to a block to which SageRad responded with the expected complaint of censorship.

From Dec 2015 to March 2016 at Paleolithic diet - see pretty much the entirety of Talk:Paleolithic_diet/Archive_6 in which SageRad bludgeoned the talk page with 180,000 bytes of talk page comments expressing his perception that the article was hijacked by "Skeptics" and was "biased"; he protested the fad diet attribution. A huge drag on the time of other editors.
- first post in Dec 2015 where he first said there is a scientific basis for the diet (against all the RS) and
- this also from December where he wrote: "I think it's pretty obvious here that there is a strong pushing to interpret the review article in the very least favorable way possible in regard to the Paleolithic diet, and this is holographically emblematic of the editing practice used in the entire article from the lede throughout the body. There is a serious wind blowing in the direction of "debunking" the article's subject throughout, and every single line is being used to slam the Paleolithic diet against a wall and to beat it up here. That's not cool. That's essentially like a witch hunt and trial against the article's subject being done by the dominant group of editors here. It's not alright. The readings here seem to strive so hard to interpret the article in question as being guilty before proven innocent. It's a witch hunt. There will never be any good dialogue here and no fair or unbiased approach to the article taken, so long as this is the prevailing flavor of the editorship here. It smacks of the same attitude taken in much of the Skeptic™ literature, and i call out the bias here." More of them same "meta-discussion" and giving his personal perception/philosophy and skeptic-complaints here (more anti-Skepticism) and here (the "integrity" bit in the face of consensus against his proposals, and "McCarthyism") and here (noodling/soapboxing against "fad diet") and here (more personal opinion) and here (more anti-skeptic general soapboxing) all the way though to
- near-last post in Feb 2016 - after extensive discussion - saying pretty much the same thing.

More recently he took his anti-Skeptic campaign to Jimbo's talk page:
- Wikipedia we have a problem in August 2016, and
- Wikipedia we still have a problem a month later, reacting mostly to the month-long block he got due to his first one.

The titles of both of these posts are direct quotes of banned user Rome Viharo's website (which I can't link to, as it is blacklisted) and the posts echo much of Viharo's conspiracist hysteria about a skeptic takeover of WP (which Viharo apparently decided must be True after the community continually rejected his FRINGE-pushing nonsense about Rupert Sheldrake and Deepak Chopra, two topics of longterm disruption with regard to altmed here in WP)

In both of the threads above you will find SageRad accusing others of McCarthyism, soapboxing, complaining about others' lack of integrity and his own adherence to The Truth. (diff (a whole "holographic" analysis of the "Skeptics conspiracy takeover" thing); diff (McCarthyist); diff (fascist, totalitarian); diff (speaking truth to power); diff there is an ideological war being waged here within Wikipedia. This is against the policies and rules of Wikipedia, and i have repeatedly been demonized as a result, not because i was guilty of violating the policies. but because i am an enemy to an ideological faction's dominance and therefore like an immune system they seek to eject me for speaking about the lay of the land in this regard); etc)

SageRad's campaign is also aligned with other altmed advocates that complain about a "skeptic takeover" of WP, like the folks at Natural News (see here for example).

He has continued that campaign in WP space:

On October 15 he opened a discussion at the Fringe Noticeboard here with more soapboxing - you can read his first three noodling remarks there.
That discussion was moved to WT:FRINGE where he has written stuff like this, soapboxing about the (nonexistent in WP) difference between institutions that create sources and the "power" in society expressed via those institutions.
On October 20 he opened a section at FRINGEN here claiming that the Chemophobia article is FRINGE in that it treated this like a psychological condition; this was a misrepresentation in that the article specifically says "Despite containing the suffix -phobia, the majority of written work focusing on addressing chemophobia describes it as a non-clinical aversion or prejudice, and not as a phobia in the standard medical definition".

What spurs this filing, is that SageRad has continued this campaign -- really WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior -- against the perceived skeptic takeover, in article space this fall.

On Sept 10, opened a section at Talk:Michael Greger (plant-based diet advocate who unfortunately often exaggerates health claims) focusing on his "skeptic" issue: Talk:Michael_Greger#Problem_with_.22skeptic.22_as_a_title, generally OFFTOPIC soapboxing disrupting already difficult discussions with Greger fans objecting to any critical discussion of Greger. Made 39 comments mostly all on this "skeptic" stuff.
On Sept 11 he jumped into the Scientific skepticism article to pursue his campaign there, making 6 edits to Talk exemplified by this where he brings no sources but just noodles on the topic and continues his campaign: "And this is not solely about paranormal phenomena, but also about other aspects of interpretation of the world through science where the social movement may have a world view that is not in line completely with the actual science, and thereby uses the appearance of the role of skeptic to promote something that is not true scientific skepticism"
On Sept 16 entered discussion at Talk:John A. McDougall, an article about another diet advocate where we have consistent low level trouble from "fans" of the diet, making 9 edits to Talk, again arguing against the fad diet attribution and writing the following (dif: "The source cited appears to not support the claim. There seems to be a lot of WP:IDHT going on where people seem to not hear that the source doesn't say what is claimed that it says" which completely misrepresented the source as I showed him I here. He went on to actually invoke Godwin's Law here.
On Sept 25 he joined a discussion at Talk:Detoxification (alternative medicine) in a section entitled "Truth of Toxins" ( right down his alley) where he helpfully brought a new ref (PMID 25522674) but then misrepresented it here and again here arguing that we should include more positive content about detox diets (the conclusion presented in the source is: "At present, there is no compelling evidence to support the use of detox diets for weight management or toxin elimination. Considering the financial costs to consumers, unsubstantiated claims and potential health risks of detox products, they should be discouraged by health professionals and subject to independent regulatory review and monitoring.") Even after that was pointed out to him here he persisted. He also brought more of his anti-Skeptic campaigning in diff (already cited dif): "Person Z calls himself a "skeptic" and some editors declare this topic is "fringe" because "it's obvious" and therefore normal sourcing considerations of Wikipedia are suspended and anything uttered by someone who self-identifies as a "Skeptic" and says the right combination of memes on their blog becomes a reliable source. Now i understand how Wikipedia works in practice, through observation of what actually happens."
Most recently at misophonia (a condition proposed in 2000 for people who have strong negative reactions to soft sounds, like eating noises)... which has been a struggle to keep neutral in the face of a lot of advocacy both by people who experience this as well as (bizarrely) by various groups who study and claim to treat people with symptoms.... He has again been abusing the talk page as a place to philosophize and push his anti-skeptic/FRINGE campaign, now about whether this condition exists or not and more generally what we do here in WP, instead of simply following sources which are extremely clear that the condition is proposed, has no classification, is not in the DSM or ICM, etc. He doesn't have access to the sources (as at the Detox article above, he was making strident claims citing only the abstract) yet he writes things like this, even after I present him with the relevant parts of the sources twice (here and later here, which he has refused to even engage. In all this he is pushing for content to be added that gives more certainty to the proposed condition than reliable sources allow and again fighting what he perceives as a skeptic agenda (dif: "Misophonia is a condition. ...The tone of the article, and the lead, should not be one of discrediting or disbelief." Argh. I dread that this is heading into another slog like the Paleo diet fiasco discussed above and I have no desire to go through that again.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

29 May 2015 block for violating BLP at David Gorski (see relevance above)
topic banned per GMO arbcom case in December 2015
blocked via AE for 5 days for violating TBAN in July 2016
blocked for one 1 month via DS for violating TBAN in August 2016

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

If you look at SageRad's contribs, this anti-skeptic pro-altmed editing is pretty much all they do here (with the exception of some Race & Intelligence work and some scattered editing on basic biology). In all these cases he is making difficult editing situations worse by adding his meta-issue to whatever the local issues are. Am suggesting a TBAN from anything related to health, as it is articles about health/alt med where he has mostly brought his SOAPBOXing and disruptive, time-wasting behavior. I would suggest alt med more narrowly but I don't want to get into endless border disputes. Jytdog (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

link updated per SageRad's request. Jytdog (talk) 15:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Bishonen, I will do no more adjusting. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:28, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bishonen, while i think restricting SageRad from soapboxing would help, the deeper problem of not dealing with sources and even misrepresenting them, and relentlessly advocating for his preferred content, is not going to be addressed by that. The disruption from SageRad's first edits here have been in the field of health which is why I requested what I did. Jytdog (talk) 18:23, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tryptofish; while i see how you could suggest that this is at base an interpersonal dispute, SageRad's editing has focused on health from his first days here and there is one consistent arc of behavior that I described in my OP. Yes, that means he and I have clashed since he arrived, since my editing is also focused on health. So yes there is an element of interpersonal dispute, but in my view, it arises from my having to deal with SageRad's problematic behavior on health topics for all this time. I don't seek SageRad out; he keeps showing up on topics I edit and behaving this way. The problems are actual, not perceived by me. Jytdog (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for your reply. When I filed this I was concerned it might get framed as an interpersonal dispute. I cannot deny that we have been at loggerheads since he arrived; I don't want that to obscure the facts of SageRad's consistent pattern of POV editing and his behavior pursuing that POV, since he arrived here. Jytdog (talk) 19:30, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tryptofish I know you nodded at the problem with SageRad's behavior with your suggestion about some limit on his talk postings. However, I contest your description of this as "Some of this may be wits-end exasperation on the part of good-faith editors, but some of it is also a clash between editors who just cannot stand one another." and the mention of RfCs as a possible solution. This is not a DR thing. SageRad has demonstrated a consistent set of problems with regard to POV on content about health and behavior trying to get that content into WP. It is not going to be resolved by treating it merely as a series of good faith content disputes that can be resolved with RfCs. That is why I posted here. Jytdog (talk) 19:46, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

and now i am going to shut the heck up, unless I am asked something. :) i am arguing too hard. I am long term frustrated. Jytdog (talk) 19:49, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually one more thing. The history between SageRad and me does go back to his very first edits here and I am very comfortable putting that history on the table. Here is his talk page before he purged it at the start of this year; that is where key interactions between SageRad and me took place. I invite anybody who wants to cast this as equivalent to review that from the top down. Jytdog (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

fwiw, i have no objection at all to the month pause in conjunction with SageRad taking a break Jytdog (talk) 02:22, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff

Discussion concerning SageRad

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by SageRad

Wow. I think a few specific editors have it out for me and are making mountains out of molehills because they have it out for me.

I do my best to follow sources and make good edits. On Jimbo's page, i speak to patterns i see within Wikipedia. Big deal. I use forums for discussion as they're intended. Big deal.

Ironically, i've been having issues with Jytdog, the very editor who brought this here, for the whole time i've been on Wikipedia.

Most recently, we've been at loggerheads on the Misophonia article. I don't think i have any other atypical conditions, but i have suffered from misophonia all my life, and only recently learned that others have the very same specific condition. And so i was learning more from MEDRS sources, and made few edits there too. And now that article seems to have a pretty serious WP:OWNership problem with this editor.

Anyway, i just filed a request at the NPOV noticeboard for other editors to help out with that article, providing help with neutrality.

And then i saw the notice about this AE case, and i just have to say Wow i'm pretty incredulous. Didn't even read the long diatribe by Jytdog.

I'm honest, forthright, and speak what i see. In editing articles i've improved greatly since i began, and i think i understand the policies well. I edit according to policies. I speak honestly. I want good article -- nothing more. I want good articles that follow the best sources.

Other people have issues that i speak to problems in Wikipedia. Are you going to shoot me for speaking? If so then it's on your hands.

SageRad (talk) 11:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty busy, have a child, and working. Last thing i want is drama. This is ridiculous. To anyone who sees Jytdog's lengthy diatribe, i ask you to simply choose any one aspect, and look at it in depth. Don't be fooled by the size of the complaint. See if it really holds up under a microscope. I'm not perfect, but i edit with integrity and following the policies of Wikipedia. Wikipedia has problems, but it's not me. SageRad (talk) 11:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tiny note. So i saw Jytdog said "That discussion was moved to WT:FRINGE where he has written stuff like this" with a link here. Note that this contained typos and missing words and you should actually read this diff -- Jytdog, will you change that in your long long thing about me please? Wouldn't want to deceive a reader, would we? The difference in the text is huge in light of this case, and it's obvious i revised that immediately. SageRad (talk) 11:50, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I had changed my statement to this and then was told that i was not supposed to change my statement. Well, ok, now i know that. I'm working on this in the margins of my time. I don't have hours to write here, and i don't want this drama nor to be topic banned, so what to do? Can i know how much time i may have? I don't have hours to put into this. Wikipedia is a labor of love, but if it's going to be like a court case then it's not the thing i would prioritize in my life right now. But on the other hand, litigious people can't be able to drive editors away by bringing such cases, but that may be just what happens too often. I love Wikipedia and want to see policies applied. Please read my other statement in the link above if you're interested. I sort of need help to know what the process is, in short terms. But on the other hand, i don't have time to dedicate to finding diffs and being a lawyer. I'm not paid to be a lawyer. 23:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

This is the alternate version of Sage's statement, from the diff above. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What is the process here?

I don't have time to follow long threads of comments right now.

What do others want to ask me or have me respond to?

Is there some sort of cross-examination? Can people ask me about what they are concerned about, allow me to respond?

I do not thing Jytdog's painting of me as a really bad figure and a person on a crusade are correct. I strive to follow the policies of Wikipedia and it actually really bothers me that they are not followed more to the letter more often.

I do get very frustrated sometimes by what i see as some people getting off scott-free while flouting the policies, or filibustering, while others are trying to have good dialog and to use good sourcing to write good articles.

I do not think Wikipedia is the place to "right great wrongs" or to do anything other than report what's in reliable sources, and to copyedit and organize the content well for the readers.

I do think it matters what is covered and how it's covered, and there are many ways this can be done about any topic. The best articles arise from the good-faith discussion among editors with differing perspectives. If they can be civil and follow the policies, and also to admit when they are wrong (as everyone is sometimes) then you get good article -- and also a camaraderie feeling.

I wish i could get along with Jytdog but it's been quite rough over the last year and a half. He's taught me some things. I appreciate some of the work he does. He's sometimes kind and helpful to people, and i know it takes patience. I appreciate some of the fact-checking he does. I appreciate his explaining sourcing or other policies to other editors.

However, i see him sometimes using his great talent to actually overstep what policies say, or to bend things in a certain way, or to intimidate other editors with alphabet soup (even when sometimes the essays or guidelines don't even really apply) and i have also felt him to be very obstinate sometimes, and not willing to have a truly good dialog sometimes (as in the misophonia article where we've most recently had some tension).

Anyway, i love Wikipedia and i want to be here when i can, but i don't want this drama. I want people to be cooperative and even to admit when i'm wrong. I have done so -- admitted i'm wrong -- even to Jytdog in the past couple of months, which i could verify with diffs if anyone wants. I don't have time for the drama, or lawyering, for finding the 15 relevant diffs among 4,000 or whatever... i love knowledge and to work on articles, but the time sink tax when there's this level of drama is too much. I have a child and a job and relationships to maintain. It's real life.

I am willing to answer any questions or respond to any observations that are in good faith and not from specific editors (a handful) who seem to hate my guts as far as i can tell. I'm sorry they don't like me. I wish everyone would like me, but i will always speak my honest thoughts. SageRad (talk) 23:38, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, contrary to what Jytdog said, i do have access to most journal articles through my past university lab affiliation.

Lastly, i admit i may have spoken too much about patterns within Wikipedia, or attributing motives to other editors, which should not use space on talk pages. Sometimes it's a response to the mirror image accusations made about me.

In many ways, i appreciate Jytdog's integrity. In some ways, he really does own up to some sorts of mistakes and make corrections. He really does want to make the encyclopedia the best it can be, i believe, but perhaps needs to consider some things more carefully from time to time and not be so reactive. Sorry if that's too much critique to speak of another editor. I mean it with good will. SageRad (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh look.......... all the dozen or so enemies are out making horribly distorted and untrue nd biased and polemic statements against me.

This is onerous and there ought to be a boomerang instead of me being on the defense. Jytdog needs to be reigned in. Everything he says about me is actually showing HIM to be on a "right great wrongs" bender, with a mission to eradicate people who disagree with him on some axes.

I don't even have time for this shit.

SageRad (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

THE HYPOCRISY IS ABSLUTELY ASTOUNDING.

Jytdog has mounted an ideological crusade, and the people who are in continuous agreement with this come out to cheer "Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!" and others actually allow this.

Get the hypocrisy, the irony:

The very thing that Jytdog is incorrectly railing about me, is what HE is doing. Running an editor out for ideological reasons. I've expressed myself in forums meant for the purpose. He doesn't like that. He stored up a list and made a Monday-morning drop of a case to eradicate me because HE doesn't like my beliefs about Wikipedia.

This has NOTHING to do with the policies of Wikipedia. I follow those to a T. I have learned the better and if you look at my recent edits, you'll see that i follow them. Therefore there ought to be NOTHING for which to ban me from any topic. Speaking thoughts and observations on Jimbo's page and talk pages is WHAT WE DO HERE! You don't like the things i've said? That's your problem.

I'm not "disrupting" -- that's a bullshit complaint. I am speaking. You don't like the inconvenience of someone disagreeing with you. You don't like the invonvenience of having to explain and justify your edits (like at the misophonia article, where i'm still pretty sure i'm right about the reading of the sources and the fact that YOU are doing WP:OR and WP:SYN there with nosology and even doing that incorrectly.) Sorry if you're frustrated that sometimes you cannot "win" the content you want when it's contrary to sourcing and policies.

This is a witch hunt type of thing. Better analogized to McCarthyism as it's a political purging.

If you let this happen, you have blood on your hands.

See what's happening here.

Speaking these things is not a crime! The shooting of people for speaking these things is a crime.

Most of y'all who've come out of the woodword (predictably) are in the same camp -- demonstrably through your actions, words, and edits -- doing the very thing you're accusing me of merely speaking about.

This place is damned.

This place is gone.

This place is captured by an ideological crew. I hold strong and true to everything i've said through my time here. It's more instructive who's come out to make statements against me, than the content of those statements. You can see who hates my presence here because they hate the things i say. That is instructive. Think for yourself, observers.

Kill me if you must but i will not pander or lie.

SageRad (talk) 16:02, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bishonen -- i just saw your comment in which you pinged me. I would like to request a month to get a defense together then. I would be able to process and not feel in jeopardy of a hammer coming down at any moment. The process has felt uncontrollable so far, with the sheer volume of Jytdog's long statement in which i'm described as a demon at all turns. It's far above the 500 word traditional word limit and it's too demonizing to make a simple statement about. It's too deep of a problem and needs some serious addressing. Another thing i would ask is to be able to erase the current statement and make a coherent new one. I've been in a panic mode of sorts and other things in life have been too demanding, and as a result i've written off the cuff. I've also been in shocked traumatic response to the half dozen people who've been in bad conflict with me for a long time all coming out of the woodwork to make horrible statements about me. Wow talk about a jury of one's enemies. SageRad (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bishonen, if speaking in this way is clearly reason for a siteban in your eyes and the "court's" eyes then you might as well site-ban me and be done with it, for this place is then absolutely and proven to be an ideologically purged place where speaking of ideological purging is grounds for being purged. I can't beleive that people cannot see the absolute irony in this condition. It's so basic and foundational. A dynamic where one might see something problematic and speak of it, and then they get punished for speaking of it, is not a healthy place and actually fairly well proves that there is a problem. In other words, this place is enabling to an ideological purging by one specific group. And the very saying that i see this happening is grounds to ban me. Well then, this place IS ABSOLUTELY CAPTURED NOW BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT' and i will never be able to work well here in a collegiate way because collegiality hardly exists here and it's more like being a member of Stalin's Party -- tow the party line or be purged. So i guess you've given me your answer in your very reply.

THERE IS NO JUSTICE HERE. THERE IS ONLY POLITICAL GAMESMANSHIP AND MACHIAVELLIAN MACHINATION.

Good luck with that.

Unfortunately the effect is disgusting upon this repository supposedly of the world's knowledge which pretends to be independent and open-source but is actually controlled in this blatant way, though not obvious to those who have not been through the wringer like i have. So, good job! You've got a mouthpiece that appears to be neutral but is actually captured! I think someone is pleased with this establishment status quo.

And the irony is my saying this will be ground for my destruction as a voice in the world of Wikipedia.

Well, give me liberty of give me death. Guess you're choosing to give me death.

SageRad (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dennis Brown what you propose would not be acceptable to me and i'll simply be gone, as if site-banned. I'm sick of topic bans and i'm sick of those who speak being pillories and neutralized. It's obvious that's what's happening here, and nobody has the guts to speak up, or those who would have all already been site-banned or shake in fear at a few names below who've time and again enforced the dogma. So, it's not a game i will play anymore. I'm calling it out, and for doing so if you ban me then you ban me. I will not accept any such topic ban. I will consider it tantamount to a total site ban. There's no getting around this. It's all or nothing. SageRad (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bishonen, i will take a month wiki-break. That's great. I would love to. I was happy to be working on the misophonia article (as it relates personally and it's interesting) but then came to loggerheads with Jytdog on it, and sense he got frustrated about this, and then i posted on WP:NPOV/N about it and was happy with that process. But then on the same Monday morning before work, to get a 1,500 word screed dropped upon me felt horrible. Yes, i felt really overwhelmed and like i have no time, and felt so screwed over in an unfair way.

Here's the thing. I do see patterns here. I see editing patterns. Who doesn't? Is it wrong to speak of them?

If it's wrong then Jytdog's entire screed is wrong. If it's not wrong, then it's okay.

So why the double standard? Why's it alright for Jytdog at Talk:Misophonia to accuse others of advocacy editing, whereas to say that there are problematic patterns in his or others' editing is anathema?

Why is it wrong to point out the very obvious "Skeptic" memes and sources that are populating Wikipedia so ubiquitously? Why's it wrong to point out that there is indeed a project to send people to Wikipedia to edit with this directive, in fact, as documented by external sources?

Why is it defined as a complete and total capital offense to speak of things in one direction, and yet the mirror image is completely sanctioned, and even praised and worshipped?

Seems there is a power structure with a particular bent here.

I am not "bludgeoning" -- i've spoken the same amount as others here in some public forum locations -- like Jimbo's page, and like the talk page on the "fringe" guideline. Those were places where this discussion is sanctioned --- so why is it seen as "evidence" of my "wrongdoing" when Jytdog presents these things here?

And yeah -- the article on Dr Michael Greger -- i did indeed question the use of the word "skeptic" as a title for a person. So? That's good critique of the article. It's a real point that i can legally and rightfully bring up. Why is that presented as if it's a crime?

Jeez.... does anyone see the craziness of this AE case?

This is like The Trial. My crime? Thinking about things and speaking.

Yes, it is like Stalin's Party. There are unspeakable things. You must not say them or you get taken here, and pilloried. Yes, it is like McCarthyism.

Saying this is not wrong. You don't have to agree. But why is saying that a punishable offense?

I'll tell you why. It's a thoughtcrime.

You should think on that. Why is something a thoughtcrime here in Wikipedia? Perhaps because there is a power issue at play.

Anyway, i edit according to policies. You will see within the last few months, any edit i have made to an article is 9 times out of 10 a good edit with good sources. I'm not pushing anything into articles. I'm not pushing an agenda other than to make good articles following the sources.

Please, please, go to the misophonia article and the Talk:Misophonia talk page and see for yourselves. Please, see whether i am breaking any rules in a bad way, or simply trying to improve the article.

With that, i will take a one month wiki-break. I need my time for other things and have too much to do to take part in a trial of this kind, and have little expectation of justice prevailing anyway.

Sage

Statement by JzG

SageRad has taken it upon himself to be arbiter of "integrity" on Wikipedia. The recent discussions on Jimbotalk showed that Sage rejects conflicting opinion as invalid, and considers that intergrity is measured by consonance with his ideology. On his user page he links to a website promoting an "ethical skeptic" agenda, which promotes Brian Martin (conspiracy theorist and supervisor of Judith Wilyman's substandard and anti-vaccine PhD) and the website where Rupert Sheldrake, Dean Radin and others rant against pesky science for not accepting their beliefs. He has adopted the rhetoric of Rome Viharo, who was banned for sockpuppetry while promoting Sheldrake and woo-meister Deepak Chopra (where he also had a COI, IIRC). Sage has used the name of Viharo's website, Wikipedia, we have a problem, as the title of at least one o his threads: [1].

One could put this down to the aftermath of ARBGMO, but long before that he was inserting accusations of censorship against David Gorski based on Gorski's banning him from commenting for trolling. The skeptic community is generally skeptical about anti-GMO rhetoric, and this seems to have set Sage against organised skepticism pretty much from the outset.

All this would be fine if Sage were capable of understanding the difference between his opinion and objective fact. He consistently demonstrates that he is not.

Sage is intelligent and articulate, but he lacks the ability to accept that any conclusion differing from his own might be grounded in truth. The diffs above clearly show this. The biggest problem is that any topic ban would have to include all areas subject to skeptical activism, and I don't honestly think he edits anything much else. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Tryptofish: I am not sure this actually is a case of editors who can't stand each other. I can't speak for Jytdog, but I do not dislike Sage at all. That's part of the problem: I feel very conflicted. I like him but his constant m:MPOV is vexing. In my opinion, if he could accept the possibility of any valid conclusion other than his own, he would be a valued contributor. He has the time and intelligence to read sources, after all. Guy (Help!) 22:35, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SageRad: You ask "What do others want to ask me or have me respond to?" Really? You can ask that still, after the recent discussions at Jimbotalk? I'd say that [2] and [3] contain a pretty complete answer to exactly that question. Your problem is as I state above: you seem unwilling or unable to accept that any conclusion other than yours could possibly be valid, and you clearly consider that anybody who states a conclusion other than yours is ill-informed, stupid, corrupt or some combination of the three. [4] followed by [5] set the tone, and I reckon the whole reason we are here is that if you took a straw poll of those who have spent time trying to work on articles alongside you, most of us would be of the opinion that left to your own devices you would make those edits again right now. It would be lovely to be proved wrong, but I have never seen any evidence of you even acknowledging that these are matters where reasonable people may differ, let alone being open to changing your mind. Guy (Help!) 15:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Bishonen: Fine with that, Sage has a new baby I think - I can still remember the effects of infant-induced sleep deprivation even two decades later. Guy (Help!) 17:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

I don't have anything particularly global to add, although I agree with Bishonen's concern that there is a genuine time-sink going on.

Some of this may be wits-end exasperation on the part of good-faith editors, but some of it is also a clash between editors who just cannot stand one another. See also: User talk:SageRad#Talk:Misophonia. It's not as simple as white-hats and black-hats.

Instead of editors getting sucked into tl;dr arguments where nobody persuades anyone else, have content RfCs been adequately explored as a way of moving past logjams? (Example RfC question: "Below are some sources that say that misphonia is a genuine disorder, and some sources that say that it is not. Taking the sources together, should this page present it as a genuine disorder?")

I've been trying to think of a possible DS restriction on SageRad that might be practical to design. Perhaps a word limit for talk page comments about AltMed pages? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jytdog: I did not say it was interpersonal at its base. It isn't. But it is, partly ("some"). --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Guy: I agree with you that Sage has a lot of potential as an editor, and I was referring more to Jytdog than to you, but despite the replies from Jytdog and from you, I still think that my statement is accurate. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I IAR put back (collapsed) the version of Sage's statement that he had reverted, and I think that it is a better statement than his original one. @Sage: you are permitted to add to your original statement, so you can always add new stuff (well, there's a word limit that is not being followed at the moment) as long as you don't delete the old stuff; you can also strike through anything you wrote. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingofaces43

I've been seeing problems with SageRad continue to brew on my watchlist after their GMO sanctions. Just in the context of their previous sanctions from GMOs, part of the reasoning why they were topic banned was the exact same behavior we're still seeing here. When people start to complain about how a topic is being antagonized by SageRad's continued soapboxing, they're often met with SageRad's "What, who me?" responses when told to knock it off just like we are seeing in their response to this AE. Basically, disruption in fringe and health topics followed by playing the victim when they're behavior on article pages is called out. Add in the obvious battleground behavior, and we're back to where we were with SageRad before the GMO ArbCom case. That's especially apparent with their "othering" (i.e., "bullies") of editors that try to curtail the disruption SageRad causes in topics where they engage in advocacy or soapboxing about their personal ideals. It's becoming apparent SageRad just won't listen even after their sanctions. Same behavior as GMOs, just different topics now.

At the end of the day, I don't have strong convictions about specific action against SageRad since I don't have to deal with them in my topic areas anymore (mainspace at least), but it's apparent they just moved their behavior issues outside their topic ban. I do feel for editors that still end up putting up with this behavior pretty regularly though. Here area a few ideas for sanctions to impose on SageRad that should at least stop the disruption and maybe turn them around:

1. One-way interaction ban when dealing with Jytdog. I don't have super strong support for this as it's really just a band-aid, but the continued battleground behavior is obvious while Jytdog has been acting at least relatively reasonable (though obviously frustrated) in the face of this string of continued behavior. I'm usually open to less complicated two-way bans, but I think we can agree SageRad's behavior is the core issue here to work on first.

2. Expanding topic bans as JzG mentioned. Probably the most concrete topic ban would be a broadly construed ban on any topic related to health (including environmental contamination for clarity). A topic ban on any WP:FRINGE topic could be a secondary consideration, but that's harder to define for avoiding wikilawyering. Word limits might have been a consideration back when SageRad was newer to Wikipedia, but the issue here seems to be they just can't let go in these topics.

3. Long-term block. SageRad has used tons of rope already still showing behavior (regardless of what they actually say) that they are not WP:HERE and are instead using Wikipedia more for soapboxing and hyperbole. Maybe that can change if they are handed a topic ban that gets them out of this activism mindset and into topics where they can act like a normal editor. I think we have to acknowledge though that if this all continues, the WP:ROPE is going leading to this last option. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing The Wordsmith's and Dennis Brown's comments on on applicable DS for a topic ban, this ArbCom case explicitly imposes DS on "all pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted". In terms of DS, there would be no issue with a WP:FRINGE topic ban option, and the case could be made under that for a medical topic ban because that's where the fringe issues occur. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Skyring

After a tangential mention in discussion below, a tangential comment. SageRad has his own strong views, is well-informed, intelligent, and productive. There's a place for him here. But when he encounters opposition, rather than discuss the points of opposition in the context on improving the article(s), he takes it personal and tries to convert other editors to his views, which he considers to be the rational factual objective plain truth, and everybody else is a deluded fool or a tool of big business or something, and ultimately Wikipedia is fatally flawed because of this evil and that evil.

Well, it's not. It works, it's a valuable reference, it's an internet marvel. SageRad should get offa his soapbox, work with those who have contrary opinions, and for the love of ghod, stop filling pages with long rambling rants! SageRad, we love you, we want you, it's just your behaviour needs a bit of a tweak. Okay? --Pete (talk) 06:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alexbrn

As an editor who has had a role in the current Chemophobia article I was surprised to see, on 20 October, postings by SageRad on both the article's Talk page and at WP:FT/N report a "POV issue" because "This article presents 'chemophobia' as if it's a psychological phenomenon ..."

[6]
[7]

On re-reading the article I saw (as did a number of other editors) that this is simply not the case: the article says precisely the opposite. This has been pointed out but since then no retraction, explanation or further comment has been made. On top of SageRad's editing history this looks far from being constructive activity. What is going on?

Because of SageRad's problematic stance towards skepticism I don't think a TBAN on health content is quite right - a TBAN needs to cover (probably in addition) any topic covered by the WP:FRINGE guidance - broadly construed - though I fear this will not succeed because SageRad seems to have a novel view of what is, and is not, fringe that is out-of-sync with the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by OID

@Wordsmith, discretionary sanctions are authorised for a number of areas SageRad has been problematic in. So realistically you could apply any sanction you wanted (provided you felt it had merit). The real issue is that SageRad is not topic-bound in his disruption. He has an anti-skeptic agenda which manifests in disruptive editing wherever skepticism is evident. He is not pro-fringe as it was, just anti-evidence-based science. His editing MO is to show up at an article, declare bias, argue with people until he finally gets they dont agree with him, then rants about how everything is unfair.

The problem is fringe and skepticism cover a huge range of topics. From pseudoscience, lifestyle, history, medical etc. Normally a targetted topic ban would suffice, but to limit SageRad's disruption would require a 0/1 revert restriction AND some sort of enforced character limit on discussions. And even *then* that would really only just keep disruption to a minimum, it wouldnt prevent anything as SageRad has a worldview that is incompatible with how Wikipedia populates article content. Alexbrn has laid out the most recent example. Jzg and a couple of others say SageRad is clearly intelligent etc, but I disagree. SageRad has repeatedly failed to grasp basic wikipedia concepts & policies, and as Alexbrn's example shows above, clearly has an issue in reading comprehension. There is a CIR issue here. This may be because he skim-reads and fails to grasp what is actually said - Jytdog has listed a number of examples where SageRad cherry-picks/looks at brief abstracts/summaries instead of reading and understanding what material actually says.

But this disruption is not limited to Wikipedia, this is just his latest venue for pushing his POV/Agenda. He came here (and was subsequently sanctioned) after getting into conflict with Gorski. He previously linked to his rants/comments offsite - and even a basic internet search shows his attack-dog mentality when criticised (just in case anyone thinks to accuse me of outing, SageRad has previously linked to his offsite comments himself, then deleted them when it was pointed out they showed his bias). If you are unable to actually implement a workable sanction, this will need to go to ANI or Arbcom for a site ban discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Annnnd we reached the hysterical McCarthy accusations again (this is an ongoing theme, if you take a look at SageRad's talkpage history, specificially their interactions with MjolnirPants). Essentially this illustrates the problem - where multiple people disagree with SageRad, its everyone else that is the problem. Keep in mind, this is multiple editors in multiple topics over an extended period of time (since SageRad came to wikipedia). This is simply a case of 'this person is not suited for wikipedia'. Failure to agree with others is generally fine. People are not required to agree all the time. Failure to agree plus disruption plus personal attacks, plus agenda pushing plus inability to accept consensus is not ok. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'cool down blocks' imply there is something to cool down from. Or that SageRad is acting out currently. This is not the case. SageRad's current behaviour is completely normal for him. Both during his entire tenure at Wikipedia, and his off-site activities. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:55, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Plea by DrChrissy

I am not here to comment on the merits or otherwise of this case, rather, I am here to make observations on Sage's behaviour and a plea for a moritorium. Sage's most recent behaviour on this noticeboard and at other places is very uncharacteristic for him. He is making unfocussed edits and flailing around in the multiple threads regarding his behaviour. He has even resorted to swearing which I don't think I have ever seen him do before. His baby is a new baby, I think only 6 weeks old or so, and I think is his first. To make this brief, I believe Sage may be experiencing some sort of melt-down. A moritorium would show compassion and allow Sage to either calm down and/or make decisions in a more rational way which Arbcom would be more able to deal with. DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon

Unfortunately, I see two problems here. The first has to do with the subject editor, User:SageRad, who has been editing aggressively since May 2015 with a strong point of view on medical and agricultural topics. The second has to do with the history between the subject editor and the filing editor, User:Jytdog. Jytdog has long been editing aggressively in accordance with Wikipedia policy to try to ensure that medical and scientific articles follow Wikipedia medical reliable source guidelines. Jytdog is almost always right with regard to policy, and has made enemies in Wikipedia, and SageRad is one of them, and SageRad has been aggressively attacking Jytdog since he began editing Wikipedia in May 2015. (SageRad made a few scattered edits before then.) Jytdog is absolutely correct in writing:

Actually, one more thing.  The history between SageRad and me does go back to his very first edits here.

Jytdog is completely correct in writing:

I don't seek SageRad out; he keeps showing up on topics I edit and behaving this way.

I first became familiar with SageRad when he showed up at the dispute resolution noticeboard hounding Jytdog and claiming mistakenly to be a DRN volunteer. SageRad has been going after Jytdog at least since June 2015.

It is impossible to reason with SageRad to advise him that his behavior is disruptive. SageRad has, since May 2015, seen all efforts to advise him to modify his behavior as "McCarthyism" and "bullying". SageRad was topic-banned by the ArbCom from the topic area of genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals. (In case anyone argues that there was a kangaroo court proceeding, he wasn’t just banned by one kangaroo under discretionary sanctions. He was banned by the community-elected panel of kangaroos, except that we are not kangaroos because we are great apes.) He has recently been blocked twice, first for five days, then for one month. It isn’t clear why SageRad is so determined to change Wikipedia when he has apparently decided that Wikipedia is such an ugly corrupt place, but that is SageRad.

If any editor other than Jytdog had been the one filing this request, I would suggest that SageRad be Site-Banned. As it is, Jytdog is the wrong editor to be filing this request, because Jytdog is right, but it looks too much like (almost justified) revenge. I suggest that SageRad be blocked for another month, and that Jytdog be asked to let other editors deal with SageRad after he is unblocked this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Capeo

I was trying to avoid commenting here because I've butted heads enough with Sage that it just feels like piling on. That said, what the admins here are seeing as a meltdown is actually pretty par for the course. Outbursts claiming McCarthyism (such as here [8] against Guy or here [9] against... everyone I guess) are fairly normal with Sage, though the Stalinism claim is a new one to me. This has been an ongoing issue when it comes to such hyperbolic claims against other users or WP in general. Capeo (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just a further note to admins, it seems unlikely SageRad will accept a voluntary editing restriction after saying they wouldn't accept an enforced one. I highly doubt it will work and will just serve to incite more drama. Perhaps I'm wrong, and SageRad will be fine with it, but I don't think you're going to get the response you're hoping for. Capeo (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because SageRad keeps insisting that folks look at the Misophonia talk page I did. As well as the article, its history, its sources and the current research. The article was a mess earlier in the year with extraordinary levels of advocate editing. To the degree that editors were adding things to the article, openly in edit summaries no less, to favor particular researchers. The majority of editors on the talk page over the last couple years I looked at also say they have Misophonia. It was brought back to some semblance of balance by Jytdog and others back in February. It quickly spiraled back to being a mess in the interceding months. Looking at the current research "a proposed condition" is exactly the proper way to characterize Misophonia according to the preponderance of RS. There is no diagnostic criteria for it. It's not listed in any diagnostic text. It's near invariably associated with other conditions such as OCD (primarily), anxiety disorders, Autism spectrum or Tourette's Syndrome. SageRad's selective use of a sentence from the Cavanna abstract is not engaging with the actual sources or even the abstract in question, or even Cavanna's actual paper. Even in the abstract itself, it's admitted "At the present stage, competing paradigms see misophonia as a physiological state potentially inducible in any subject, an idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders), or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder."

Cavanna and the one study he cites that agrees with him (that aren't his own) is the only person I can find that presently suggests it might be a primary condition. Even then he admits, in regard to the current definition of Misophonia, "This definition challenges the subsequently proposed views that misophonia is a discrete/idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders)8 or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder, at least in a proportion of cases.4 If confirmed by future systematic studies in large populations, the presence of high rates of comorbidity would go against the argument that misophonia should be labeled as a primary diagnosis. In fact, it would suggest that it is a symptom manifestation of other underlying or comorbid diagnoses and should more appropriately be labeled as a symptom, rather than as a stand-alone diagnosis. Either way, the addition of misophonia to nosographic classification systems of psychiatric disorders, such as the DSM, would require careful consideration." 8 is the study I mentioned. 4 is a short paper by Cavanna. Long story short: Jytdog's wording is correct and it appears SageRad is ignoring the caveats the source in question, which he provided, which isn't even close to the totality of sources in question. Capeo (talk) 01:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MjolnirPants

I'm not going to post my usual, fifteen paragraph explanation of every nuance of my own thoughts about this. I'm just going to say two things.

I actually do 'like' SageRad in that I get the impression I could have a few beers with him, work alongside him, or have a friendly relationship with him as my next door neighbor. I would likely befriend him if I knew him IRL.
I absolutely, wholeheartedly, 100% without reservation support a permanent site ban. His views are immutable, and they are utterly incompatible with Wikipedia. He constantly expresses angst and frustration at his participation here. This is one of those rare cases where a permanent site ban would (eventually) make everyone happier, including Sage. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:26, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (Roxy the dog)

I'm going to tender for the WP:ROPE supply contract with wikipedia. Must be racing up in value. -Roxy the dog™ bark 08:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning SageRad

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I hope I'll have time to return to this request — it requires a daunting amount of reading for someone not already familiar with the relevant discussions — but I have a couple of initial points:

A. I don't see a problem with SageRad's posts on Jimbo's page. They're the kind of thing that page is for. But it's another matter to keep "adding his meta-issue to whatever the local issues are", as Jytdog puts it, to various article talkpages. I agree that is disruptive and time-wasting. To get the flavour, I've read through the Talk:Paleolithic diet/Archive 6, that Jytdog referred to and I see exactly what he means by timesink. (I admit I didn't read quite all of the archive, but a good chunk, maybe half, and it was one of my worst hours on Wikipedia.) SageRad's bandying of phrases like "witch hunt" and his assumptions of bad faith of editors like Johnuniq and User:Skyring are just depressing.[10] ("Thanks sir, who I have encountered before in a rather bullying fashion"... "another editor who has used bullying tactics against me in the past... the gang shows up.") The best thing might be a topic ban from going on about meta-issues on article talkpages, as well as the persistent accusations of people "ganging up" on and "bullying" him as soon as they disagree with him. But formulating such a ban properly and usefully is no doubt impossible. I see JzG too has a problem with what a ban might cover.

B. SageRad's comment "Didn't even read the long diatribe by Jytdog" in his response here is really unpromising. SageRad, I have read the "diatribe" carefully and found it full of interesting stuff and food for thought. Well, I would guess you have read it too by now, but for you to start by blowing off your opponent like that looks just like an unfortunate illustration of what JzG said above about a lack of ability to accept that any conclusion differing from your own might be grounded in truth. I hear what you say about real life busyness, but there's always the option of requesting more time to reply.

Oh, and C, just a PS to Jytdog: updating the link just now was fine, but for goodness sake don't otherwise fiddle with your initial statement any more. Fluidity in that makes it much harder for others to evaluate and respond. If you must make new points, please do so below your main signed and dated filing, with a new sig and datestamp. Bishonen | talk 16:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

Note: @SageRad: I see you ask above how much time you may have, and saying you don't have time to dedicate to finding diffs and being a lawyer. I suggest you put a request above, at the end of your statement, something on the lines of "I'm busy in real life, can I please have a week (or whatever specific time span would fit your circumstances) to supply a responsive and factual statement?" I'm sure the admins would agree to put this on hold for the time you need. However, if what you mean is that you will never have time to make a reasonable defense, or supply any evidential diffs, then we might as well deal with this as speedily as possible. Please let us know. Bishonen | talk 15:57, 25 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

Continued note: I see @SageRad: says he wants a month. (Please stop adding stuff for a minute, as that's making it rather hard to respond.) Of course that seems a lot. When I wrote my original note, I hadn't seen your latest edits [11][12][13] ("This place is damned.. This place is gone..This place is captured by an ideological crew..." etc), which strongly supports Jytdog's complaint. If you stand by that, we may IMO as well siteban you and be done with it. But if what you need is some cooling-off time and then a new statement, it's fine by me. A month of not editing (since you're busy IRL. and will also be busy writing up a statement here) would work for me. What do other people think of a one-month moratorium, please? We could archive this request temporarily and bring it back on 25 November. Bishonen | talk 16:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

Comment I'm still reading through the copious amounts of content presented as evidence. I think there is probably a need for some sort of action here, though I'm not quite sure what the best course is yet. As a point of order, however, I would like to note that this board and its administrators do not have the power to issue a topic ban from "health content"; that would be something to be brought up at one of the conventional noticeboards. The most severe topic ban available to us would be "pages relating to Complementary and Alternative Medicine" or some narrower subset of that. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:03, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reading SageRad's latest postings, I think the assessment that he is in some sort of meltdown is essentially correct. Given that he is also dealing with a newborn child, I think compassion ought to reign here. Provided Sage agrees to take some voluntary time off editing, I would have no problem with putting the request on hold for a month or so. If he returns to editing, it can be resumed with cooler heads all around. Getting some sleep and adjusting to his new family situation might help the behavior problem on its own. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We are empowered to implement any conventional sanction even though it is here at AE, treating it as a non-Arb issue without moving it to another board. OID raises some interesting points, and I have to admit only going through part of the evidence, yet this looks like one form of WP:Tendentious editing, albeit not a textbook example. He seems to be taking a singular position on a general theme (skepticism) and bludgeoning multiple pages and refusing to listen to consensus, to the point that it is disruptive to other editors that are simply trying to build an encyclopedia. It does seem to be a pattern of behavior that extends beyond a single venue, which has gone well beyond spirited debate and to the point that it is hindering the building of the encyclopedia. Again, WP:TE. I would like to read more and will later today, but this is how it is shaping up in my eyes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:03, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm was about to propose something else, something not as palatable as Bishonen's idea, but would entertain Bish's idea. What I don't want to happen is for SageRad to say he is leaving Wikipedia forever, then come back in a month or two and we have the same problem. I would only accept if we continue this in one month, even if it is in absentia. What I would have proposed is a 6 month block and 12 month ban on pseudoscience/medicine (to include skepticism, which is a stretch), to run concurrently. That would allow a long enough period of time as to prevent disruption for 6 months at least, and perhaps past that knowing the next block is indef. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If I've learned anything in my decade plus experience here, SageRad, it is that people often say things in the heat of the moment they regret. A sanction doesn't require consent by the sanctioned. My first concern is all the other editors that are affected by your behavior. People leave Wikipedia because they get frustrated by people doing things like what you are doing, because they can't edit in a normal fashion and the frustration is too much. That is the purpose of a sanction, not to benefit you, but to benefit them, and by extension, Wikipedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:18, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"If you let this happen, you have blood on your hands." Oh dear. If that was a statement made under what we can call extenuating circumstances, it's probably best if this editor stays away from Wikipedia for a while. Drmies (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: What I suggested above was that we put this on hold for a month with SageRad voluntarily abstaining from editing during that period, which is apparently The Wordsmith's opinion also. Having watched SR continue to "flail around" (per DrChrissy) makes me a bit dubious about the voluntary part; is he in a state where he can and will comply with a voluntary restriction? A one-month block for recent and ongoing disruption might technically be better. But I don't like to consider it, because people generally take blocks as humiliating. (Not me, I'm proud of mine, but it took me a few years to attain such block zen.) Humiliation is very bad and goes counter to the compassion principle. Therefore, I suggest a one-month moratorium with SageRad taking a wikibreak that has nothing to do with blocks and block logs. (Please briefly indicate if you agree to do that, @SageRad:.) If he edits anywhere in a disruptive way during the moratorium, he will then be blocked, and I advise against editing at all. And we collapse this until 25 November, but it can be re-opened earlier by SR himself, if he feels ready for it. He will be free to remove all his own posts here and start afresh, if desired. And I agree emphatically with Dennis that we must avoid a situation where we close without action, SR leaves, and then returns in a month or two, unsanctioned. We need to protect Wikipedia and other users from the bludgeoning that has been going on. The case should be discussed again in a month at the latest, even if in absentia. Is this acceptable to other admins? Bishonen | talk 20:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

For the record, that's more or less what I was suggesting. I'm not a fan of WP:COOLDOWN blocks when not absolutely necessary, and I'm not convinced this case warrants it. His conduct needs to be dealt with, but letting cooler heads prevail is a much better path for everyone involved. I endorse this proposal. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 20:34, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with that. Can't hurt to try as long as we don't forget it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:37, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks, all. Sigh... let's focus on the edit summary and first sentence of SageRad's statement here, that he is actually, now, taking a wikibreak, and put this on hold for a month. I hope he means it, because if there should be further ABF harangues in the coming month, I believe he should be blocked. Closing. Bishonen | talk 08:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

My very best wishes

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning My very best wishes

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: DrFleischman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

06:54, 17 October 2016 The first time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of an RfC. Instead of posting something on the talk page, My very best wishes described the perfectly reasonable RfC as "ridiculous" and accused the requestor, EvergreenFir, of using it to stonewall. The irony here is that the one stonewalling was My very best wishes, not EvergreenFir.
21:27, 19 October 2016 The second time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of the RfC.
09:54, 26 October 2016 The third time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of the RfC. In the edit summary they acknowledged the existence of the RfC. My very best wishes ignored repeated talk page comments that the content should be excluded during the pendancy of the RfC. A pretty clear violation of WP:TALKDONTREVERT.
12:19, 26 October 2016 Playing dumb and failing to acknowledge RfC, after AE warning.
12:40, 26 October 2016 Refusal to self-revert, and failure to acknowledge that their re-insertions violated our WP:NOCONSENSUS policy.
19:58, 27 October 2016 My very best wishes continues to edit war over this material, now re-deleting an {{undue-inline}} tag that flagged the existence of the RfC. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:36, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

17:35, 20 October 2016 (one of many).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

(My apologies if I've messed something up, as this is my first time lodging an AE complaint.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My very best wishes, the arbitration warning states:

“

Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.

”

This is what you did, three times. Your primary justification appears to be that you were following some sort of custom to preserve the material being discussed in an RfC. This custom does not "trump" (pardon the pun) active arbitration remedies, especially when you are re-inserting allegations of sexual misconduct in a BLP. I'll also note that WP:RFC states:

“

Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved.

”

--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:14, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My very best wishes, thank you for pointing out that I did accidentally and technically violate 1RR just now (after filing this complaint) by restoring a dispute tag while the relevant dispute was ongoing. I acknowledge my mistake and have self-reverted--something you have refused to do. As for your suggestion that the RfC be closed, I agree that would help toward resolving the content dispute, but not toward resolving this conduct dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:38, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have identified at least 3 verifiable falsehoods in Tataral's statement, but they really bear on the matters not pertinent to this complaint, which is about My very best wishes's conduct, not about my conduct or the content dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, Lankiveil, and Guy, I think some of you (at least Drmies) have misunderstood this complaint. I'm not screaming BLP violation, I'm saying that Mvbw clearly and flagrantly violated the arbitration remedy that provides: "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." Mvbw and I have a disagreement about content, which is being hashed out on the talk page. The difference between my behavior and theirs is that I have used only the talk page and tagging to "stick to my guns" whereas they have repeatedly re-reverted the same content without consensus, in violation of active arbitration remedies, to stick to theirs. One is the right way to edit DS articles and the other is not. I'm puzzled that you're so quick to excuse such behavior on one of the most visible and contentious articles in the encyclopedia - one that was basically what DS was designed to manage. Drmies, I'm also surprised at your uncharacteristically un-AGF comment. If you look at the entirety of my contributions to Donald Trump you'll see that I've taken all sides, sometimes with Mvbw and sometimes against, and I have nothing against them beyond that they have behaved disruptively in this particular dispute and have set a very poor example for less experienced editors. I have to be honest, this smacks of favoritism toward the long-timers, even if unintended. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, I must say I'm completely baffled by your latest response, and I think you continue to misunderstand me. I absolutely disagree with those who say that insertion of the rape content is immediately blockable, and I'm blinkered as to how you can tag me with poor arguments made by others. Moreover, your suggestion that Mvbw "did something I think is wrong and didn't repeat it" is verifiably false. Mvbw restored content without consensus three times--in clear violation of AE remedies, no?--while there was ongoing talk page discussion. The third time I had specifically called out this behavior and asked editors like Mvbw to stop restoring the content without consensus. So what does Mvbw do? They ignored the discussion and restored the content anyway. (1) How is this good behavior? (2) How is this in compliance with AE remedies--and if it's not, are you really ready to signal that enforcement of AE remedies is discretionary? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:31, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, say what? You continue to misread. The RfC was set up by EvergreenFir, not by me, and the comments you're quoting aren't part of it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, I hope I can answer your questions by saying: (1) Yes, I hope everyone will stop fighting over that content, not just Mvbw; (2) Here is the reason I chose to bring this complaint against Mvbw; and (3) My dream remedy would be an uninvolved admin posting a big, bold notice on the talk page saying something like, "Everyone, knock it off and leave this material out of the lead section pending formal closure of the RfC or other consensus to restore this material, per policy. Violators will be tbanned until after the election." I don't know if you guys have authority to do that, but it would solve a lot of problems all at once. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Schmarnnintelligenz, you are deliberately misrepresenting my motives. In the very same comment that you linked to, I explain that the reason for this complaint is to discourage bad behavior (edit warring, reverting with out discussing) by Mvbw and others. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

13:42, 26 October 2016

Discussion concerning My very best wishes

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by My very best wishes

In the first diff of complaint I refer (edit summary) to this unhelpful RfC request closed by an administrator. I obviously did not mean user EvergreenFir in this edit summary. I meant other users.

An administrator who closed this request also opened another RfC that was a lot more helpful. Here is version of the page which existed at the moment of posting this RfC by admin. The content under discussion in the RfC was the last paragraph in the introduction. Strictly speaking, this paragraph should not be modified during standing RfC until it is closed. However, I do agree that the initial version of this paragraph was POVish, and it evolved to another, more neutral version, one that I have restored here (3rd diff in complaint).

I think this latest version is fine and should remain, possibly in this, even more neutral version. However, if the RfC will be properly closed with conclusion to remove, I am very much willing to agree with consensus. But the RfC is still open, and there is no consensus to remove this material from intro. I fully explained my edits here and here. Nevertheless, the filer decided to go ahead with this complaint. Why? If am wrong here, please explain, and I will try to improve. Note that I discussed this subject on article talk page.

As a note of order, the US politics is not an area of my major interest, and I did not receive a formal warning about discretionary sanctions in this area, although I know about these sanctions. My very best wishes (talk) 22:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A constructive suggestion. Could an uninvolved admin look at this RfC and close it please, one way or another. End of story. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Note that DrFleischman just threatened to report yet another user on WP:AE [14] and ... violated 1RR rule on this page [15],[16] (note that both his edits are restoration of "content challenged by reversion" he complains about here). DrFleischman is well aware of the 1RR restriction on this page, but refused to comply [17]. Note that I made only three edits on this page during a week. My very best wishes (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

DrFleschman now self-reverted, but asked other users (edit summary) to continue edit warring on his behalf. I tried to explain him that he acted inappropriately, but without any success. My very best wishes (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@James J. Lambden. After reading comments on the RfC, it appears that most people agree with this edit by Awilley. His text is similar to that in my last edit on this page. I think this text actually reflects consensus on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@James J. Lambden.

No, this is wrong count by you. Most people on the RfC agreed that at least one phrase should be included in intro.
Even if I made mistakes, I corrected them later - see my last diff which places essentially same content as was previously placed by admin based on his reading of comments on very same RfC;
I think some participants around here are gaming the rules by removing everything they do not like to claim "hey, you can not place this back as something I challenged by reversion",
I think my editing of BLP pages is generally fine (I had no a single warning for this);
This is all beyond the point because I am not going back into this mess per suggestion by Lankeveil. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@EtienneDolet and James J. Lambden. Yes, I have some interest in US politics, but this is not an area of my main interest. Why do you see it as a problem? My very best wishes (talk) 01:39, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Lankeveil. I agree to leave this topic area voluntarily for a couple of weeks, no problem. My very best wishes (talk) 14:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@EtienneDoliet. In the comment you quoted I refer to this RfC. Yes, this RfC is ridiculous because it asks about the number of words in a phrase. That's why an admin posted another RfC instead. As about child rape accusations, I saw them in this section of a WP article and they seemed well sourced to me. I do not insist these accusations should be placed back. This is something to be decided by WP:Consensus. My very best wishes (talk) 05:11, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure why three contributors below (EtienneDolet, Athenean and Tiptoethrutheminefield) blame me of "Putinophobia", and not for the first time. This AE request has nothing to do with that subject. I do not even edit page about him for a long time. EtienneDolet does. My very best wishes (talk) 02:55, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I do not think this subject area will be quiet after electing such president. Quite the opposite. My very best wishes (talk) 22:02, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tataral

If I'm not mistaken, User:DrFleischman has made at least 3 reverts during the last 24 hours in violation of 1RR. It is somewhat amusing that this user, DrFleischman, who is engaging in revert warring and battleground behaviour to such an extent, threatens to file frivolous reports over the same issue against one editor after another (who unlike him haven't edit warred and who have made only one edit during a whole week reinstating the stable and consensus-supported version) when he doesn't get it his way. When someone claims everyone else is wrong, it's usually the other way round.

When reading the talk page in its entirety, after 2 weeks of discussion, it is clear based on policy-based arguments that there is consensus to include a brief mention of the controversy, in the form of the wording that has been stable for quite some time now. Numerous editors have presented sound policy-based arguments (summed up nicely by JasperTECH under the heading "My comment copied from below") in favour of its inclusion, at least in the form of a brief mention (as is currently the case), but on the other hand there is a case to be made that consensus is against including a whole paragraph on it, as was originally the case. The current two-sentence wording is much shorter than the original paragraph, and also a lot more neutral, and is really a compromise and the result of painstaking work by many editors to find an acceptable, neutral and WP:DUE wording that complies with the BLP policy to the maximum extent possible. If User:DrFleischman disagrees with it, he should seek consensus on the talk page instead of revert-warring or trying to bully other editors. --Tataral (talk) 11:49, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by James J. Lambden

Nowhere in My very best wishes's response do I see a link to any discussion showing consensus to include the text he restored. Did I miss it?

His comment above is also dubious:

"As a note of order, the US politics is not an area of my major interest"

He made a similar comment a few days ago on the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016 talk page:

"I usually do not edit US politics and have more or less fresh eyes here"

Yet, examining his recent contributions I see he's involved in the following articles:

Now I'm just a simple caveman but the Hillary Rodham cattle futures controversy seems like a relatively obscure topic for someone not very interested in American politics.

It will be interesting to compare editors' responses in this request to their responses in Anythingyouwant's request above, since they involve the same bit of text in the same article. James J. Lambden (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: You say: "I think this text actually reflects consensus on the page." Let's see:

On Oct 17 the RFC asking whether the existing coverage ("Allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump were widely reported in the weeks before the election.") was sufficient stood at:

Yes: 5
No: 5 (one of those saying it should only be expanded to include Trump's counterclaims)
Maybe/Comment: 3

You expanded it to a paragraph shortly after, including a poorly-sourced claim of "child rape" (diff #1)

On Oct 20 the RFC asking whether the allegations should be included in the lede and to what extent stood at:

Yes/short or one sentence: 2
Yes/more than short or one sentence: 9
No: 11

Based on that you restored a full paragraph (diff #2)

On Oct 26 the same RFC stood at:

Yes/short or one sentence: 4
Yes/more than short or one sentence: 13
No: 13

Based on that you restored a 3-sentence description (diff #3)

Comments addressing potential BLP violations are I believe misguided - the relevant policy (as DrFleischman specifies in his complaint) is WP:ARBAPDS:

All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.

In each of these instances consensus was not just absent but against the multiple-sentence description restored by My very best wishes.

My own opinion (as far as BLP) is that a single restoration of a poorly-sourced child rape claim, against consensus, in a highly visible BLP and an area covered by discretionary sanctions is grounds for a permanent ban from BLPs. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Schmarnnintelligenz

I came here feeling invited via a link posted by DrFleischmann to Talk:Donald Trump#Addition of sexual misconduct content to lead section while RfC is ongoing, take 2 and am really astonished reading this (not all tl;dr;) and just wanted to leave this comment: While working on some of the current politics articles I saw the name DrFleischman really often - and often reverting other users. Then suddenly he placed a warning on my usertalk although I had strictly followed the 1RR rule prominently displayed on the Trump article, so I looked a bit more what he was doing and to me several edits look like breaching the 1RR or "avoiding" it by using just other words. Also in my eyes DrFleischman is very skillful on talkpages interpreting disagreements towards the solutions he wants to achieve, often by accusing fellow contributors of not adhering to the guidelines, also often by positive, constructive language. In the Difflinks provided I don't see [My very best wishes] acting against the rules, just editing with similar means like DrFleischman. Perhaps both could agree to both adhere more to our giudelines and look more friendly for consensus while accepting that consensus is not always "what I want" and that consensus is fluent and not only the "powerusers" here have valid arguments. My suggestion would be: Close this here and Keep calm and focus on content, folks :-) --S I 17:38, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I see that this is still an open case, I ask the admins to have a look at User talk:DrFleischman#AE question, especially this edit: "Tell you what, if you can somehow, miraculously convince everyone editing the article to stop edit warring and to leave sexual misconduct out of the lead section until the RfC is resolved, then I'll withdraw my complaint.". I'm really shocked. So this case here is deliberately used to force content out of an WP article by trying to force one user to grant a consensus with many others? Do I undestand that langauge correct? --S I 14:34, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by EtienneDolet

@Lankiveil: and @JzG: and to all the other admins involved in this case. There's a lot of misleading claims here that My very best wishes regularly employs in order to excuse himself when the going gets tough. Just two months ago, in this case, Mvbw was quick to say that he was actually interested in American politics to excuse himself from tag-team edit-warring charges piled against him. Here is exactly what Mvbw said at the tag-teaming accusations against him:

If it helps, I promise never look at the editing history of VM in the future, even though this is not forbidden by policy. That however, does not guarantee that I will not appear on the same pages as him, because we have a significant overlap of interest, including US politics.

To clarify matters further, he also said the following in response to Softlavender's concerns that the tag-team edit-warring was spreading to different topic areas:

@Softlavender. Even if I was not interested in these subjects (yes, they are actually interesting to me), but only wanted to improve content as a generally disinterested contributor, that still would be OK.

And indeed, there's this stark comment here:

It was only very recently that the ongoing presidential campaign in US brought my attention. This is something highly unusual and therefore interesting to me.

So it's one form of the truth when he's under fire with one accusation, but it's another form of truth under another. Apparently, it's an all too familiar pattern of playing dumb when it comes to not only editing at mainspace (as exemplified by DrFleischman), but even as he defends himself as well. All in all, it's quite deceptive towards admins that haven't known this user's history and apparent pattern of disingenuous handling of his affairs. As for Mvbw's editing pattern, I'm surprised this user is not banned for this edit alone. As I am also surprised that he wasn't banned for this. I mean, there's a pretty strong pattern here of treating the articles of people he doesn't like with a sly attempt to destroy them, either by undermining the consensus building process to make them better, or to directly add material that would undermine the article altogether. I suggest the admins look beyond this report and seriously consider the long pattern of problematic behavior this user has be accused of doing. It's the only way of truly grasping the extent of the concerning behavior this user has caused in the project. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, see the edit-summary of that edit. You see the part that says "RfC is ridiculous and used for stonewalling"? Well, that's not the same as making a wrong edit that's "not maintained by consensus". Indeed, that would make it sound okay. As in, much more blameless than it should be. You know, as if it were some accident or something. But this was a highly contentious edit in the most visible BLP article in Wikipedia (and of a guy that's known to sue, might I add). To top it all off, Mvbw makes a mockery of this project's consensus building procedures (calling it: "This is probably the most ridiculous RfC I have seen in the project") and has the effrontery to dismiss those who participate in them as nothing but "stonewallers". And he does this not once, not twice, but three times, which in itself makes a mockery of the RfC. So it's not just a wrong edit, it's a disruptive POV pushing pattern. He has openly taken a side on the issue and pushed his POV even while good faith editors were in the process of building a consensus. The pattern is there. The disruption is there. All the fundamental signs that would usually lead to a topic ban are there. What else is missing? I've seen users get indeffed for doing much much less. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That should not give you the right to delete material you don't like only hours before you made that remark. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:56, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could admins here make in any less obvious that they are waiting until after the elections to resolve this case? Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:52, 6 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@DrFleischman: Honestly, I don't think this report matters anymore. Mvbw (or VM for that matter) received something worse than a topic ban: a Trump presidency. It was a nice try on their behalf though. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Athenean

I'm frankly amazed My very best wishes hasn't been topic banned from US politics articles already. At Donald Trump in particular, all he does is edit war [18]. The rape diff alone is especially disturbing and grounds for a ban just by itself. He is edit-warring to reinstate extremely defamatory, poorly sourced material to the lede of a high visibility BLP article. for crying out loud. Can anyone think of something worse? Because I can't. Drmies' special pleading that it was a "setup" is baffling. Users are fully responsible for their edits, and Mvbw is a veteran contributor. Especially in hot articles like Donald Trump, all users should be extra careful with their edits. The conspiratorial suggestion that he was somehow "set up" is simply mind boggling.

As someone else has pointed out, for someone who disingenuously claims to "not be interested in American politics articles", he sure edit wars a lot [19] [20] [21] [22]. In fact that's pretty much all he does in this topic. Content building is virtually zilch. Talk pages are mainly used for obfuscation and deception instead of trying to resolve disagreements in good faith. For example here is demanding users not edit the article until the RfC is closed [23] (but he himself has no problem re-adding controversial material on Donald Trump even though an RfC on the material is ongoing), deliberately misconstruing RfC results ([24]), wikilawyering about when 1RR applies [25], the list goes on.

Which brings us to what is arguably the most disruptive aspect of Mvbw's editing: the active use of deception. Mvbw frequently plays dumb (e.g. pretending not to notice an RfC is ongoing) even though he knows full well what is going on. Rules and guidelines are selectively misquoted and manipulated as desired. This shows great contempt for the wikipedia community and its processes. In one edit summary he will say an Rfc is "ridiculous" and use that as an excuse to revert [26], in the next edit summary he uses the fact that the RfC is ongoing as an excuse to revert again (but this time he validates the RfC) [27]. This user just makes a mockery of the entire wikipedia community process at every turn. This is a game to him.

Finally, I would also like to disabuse everyone here of the naive notion that Mvbw's disruption in this topic area will magically cease after Nov. 8. As anyone who is familiar with him knows, Mvbw's raison d'etre on wikipedia is a deep and abiding Putinophobia. This is why he edit wars to remove any material that reflects negatively on Clinton [28] [29] and her people [30] [31] using absurd, mocking edit summaries ("not every cold deserves mention", "petty details", "RfC not closed", etc...) and edit wars to reinstate any material that reflects negatively on Trump (the more defamatory the better). Reliable sources and wikipedia process mean nothing; it's all about the mission. Regardless of who wins, I can guarantee the chance of Mvbw abandoning these articles after election day is zilch.

Considering the lack of positive contribs, and the disruption wrought, I can't think of a single reason why this topic area benefits from Mvbw's presence. Athenean (talk) 00:40, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: So the fact he re-instated the child-rape only once makes it ok? I find it impossible to believe that Mvbw didn't do this knowingly and intentionally. Then we also have this [32], which while not quite as bad as child rape, is quite close. Then there's this little gem here with the whole guilt-by-association gimmick with Mike Tyson [33]. Doesn't quite accuse Trump of rape, but comes quite close. This is deep, deep in WP:TEND and WP:BLPVIO territory. I'm just curious, what would this user have to do to get banned from this topic area? Because if the above behavior is not enough, I don't know what is. Athenean (talk) 06:53, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield

I wholeheartedly agree with Athenean's "anyone who is familiar with him knows, Mvbw's raison d'etre on wikipedia is a deep and abiding Putinophobia" description of the editing aims of My very best wishes. Regarding the Mike Tyson gimmick Athenean mentioned. I also tried to remove that content [34], only to see it immediately returned by My very best wishes [35]. As explained here [36], this off-topic content about Mike Tyson's 1992 rape conviction was being added and then editorialized into being linked to his 2016 endorsement of Trump in order to blatantly imply guilt by association. That Mvbw has continue to edit war in this obviously invalid content is telling, but I think even more telling is the silent agreement of many editors to allow it and similar disgraceful content to remain and allow Mvbw to be the attack dog in reversing any attempts at deletion. This is not just "sticking to one's guns", to use Drmies' wording - it is a constant and pov consistent obstruction to the removal of content that clearly breaks numerous Wikipedia policies and guidelines on content, language usage, editorializing, and BLP issues. These policies and guidelines take precedence over article-specific sanctions, so Drmies' hand washing "there was some kind of consensus over it" shows a failing in the judgment and guidance that are expected from an administrator. It also displays some flippancy - can Drmies actually point to the talk page discussion that decided on the consensus for the Tyson content he claims exists? There was none - the "consensus" that has allowed that content to remain is nothing more than a "the party that edit wars the longest wins" - this is not how consensus should be determined, and article-specific (even if article-specific ARBAPDS sanction supported) consensus anyway cannot decide to ignore site-wide policies and guidelines. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My very best wishes, re your question, by "attack dog" I didn't mean this is what you have been doing, but that I think there are editors who look on you as having that purpose for them: they would like, for pov reasons, to retain for example the Tyson editorialized content, but chose not to defend the material on talk (since it is ultimately un defendable). Instead they are letting you do it through your reverts, knowing that if you are blocked it does not affect them - you are a recent arrival to that article and are editing there for different reasons. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:33, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JFG

My very best wishes is clearly an experienced editor who knows very well how to walk a fine line on the edge of the rules, and quickly retract when caught. I wouldn't go so far as to call him "on a mission" but I concur with Athenean and Tiptoethrutheminefield about his general editing style and behaviour, which tends to discourage editors who are not as strong-willed or as passionate. Unfortunately, neutral and consensus-minded editors can get tired of fighting such people and refrain from further attempts to improve articles on sensitive topics — precisely driving away the kind of contributors we need at Wikipedia: that is the key issue to me in this case. This particular violation doesn't look like a big deal, but it is part of a tendentious pattern coupled with sometimes derogatory or lawyeresque comments. In that spirit, I would find it unfair that MBVW escape with a mere slap of the trout when just a few days ago the same kind of minor violation (although from an editor who has generally proved to be more amenable to consensus discussions) was sanctioned with a TBAN for Anythingyouwant considering his overall pattern of behaviour. Therefore I advocate the exact same "Vanamonde-standard" sanction for MBVW, with an encouragement to be less combative in his future contributions. — JFG ^talk 20:41, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning My very best wishes

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It is hard to escape the suggestion that this is a setup, and some commentators confirm that. The worst in all this is the inclusion of the "rape" phrase--but that's only in the very first diff. Another editor (Steeletrap, if I remember correctly) used that word on another Trump-related article (can't find which one right now) and I warned them not to do that again--perhaps My very best etc. saw that warning. Moreover, that content was there before the RfC started, so whether removal or reinsertion is the disruptive bit remains to be seen--in other words, what the B is in BRD, for instance. And so what we have is three reinsertions over the course of a week, the first one of which with what I consider a serious BLP violation, but the second ones without that mistake. Now, when exactly which RfC was started and when what content was in, that's less interesting than other matters here: there is no BLP exception (except for in the first, already mentioned and not repeated edit), and the content itself is better documented than the recent effort to land something on Mars. Now, someone inserts that rape shit again, me and a bunch of others will be happy to block on the spot. You want a sentence instead of three sentences on this content, that's fine--but you wait until the RfC is closed before you go to AE, because--again--while one may argue it is undue, it is very hard to see it as a BLP violation. So, this AE request certainly proves that My very best sticks to their guns, as does Dr. Fleischman--good for both of you. It also proves that every single case here has the potential of becoming a lithmus test, which is why James Lambden should really withdraw from this subject matter, since they seem to be incapable of treating any Trump-related conflict as just an editorial conflict, not as some matter of life and death. Drmies (talk) 01:53, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Dr. Fleischman, I am surprised to see you read so much, or misread, my "stick to guns" phrase. Seriously. I have little more to add, except that I just saw yet another editor saying that the rape thing ought to be immediately blockable. It's not. It's not a crazy edit (read the sources, there are some)--just a wrong one which was not maintained by consensus. One of the things that needs to happen here is that if someone does something you think is wrong and doesn't repeat it, that you be happy and maybe congratulate the other editor. Drmies (talk) 03:15, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Etienne Dolet, Athenean, et al., "inserted" or "reinserted"? As far as I can tell the editor only inserted it once. Yes, that's not great while an RfC is going on but it's better than twice. Now, that "sexual advances towards" --> "sexually assaulting" edit, claiming that that's somehow almost as bad as accusing someone of child rape is prima facie ridiculous, and such commentary invalidates the point--never mind that "You can do anything. ... Grab them by the p---. You can do anything" is well verified, and is read widely as describing sexual assault. Grabbing someone by the qeuynte is indeed a "sexual advance" in one literary text, but that one is a fabliau and hardly a reliable source for dating advice. And if the Mike Tyson reference is guilt by association, then you have a bigger problem since apparently it's in the article right now, which I assume means there was some kind of consensus over it. Besides, what the editor did was modify something that was already there, so I don't see how that is POV or disruptive or whatever. No, I do not believe I have seen editors indeffed for less. That kind of exaggeration is typical, maybe, for this topic area, and I hear it on TV as well, but in an arbitration forum it is counterproductive. Drmies (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Dr. Fleischman, I don't quite follow. The three diffs do not make the same edit. The first contained the rape allegation. That's contentious, I agree, but they didn't repeat it. The second is hardly as controversial as you may claim, and is more a tweak than anything else--as long as we're talking about the lead, and not about Tyson (which is not, as far as I can tell, the subject of talk discussion). One can easily argue that it's an improvement since it turns a specific point about the campaign (already there in the lead--the groping bit) into a general point about the subject, which in this article is (more) appropriate. The edit appears factual and well verified, or at least easily verifiable; I don't see how one could call that change a BLP violation or something like that--just compare Anythingyouwant's version to My very best wishes's. The third actually restores content that was already there in Anythingyouwant's version just before My very best wishes "second" diff--so you're faulting Mvbw for basically making the same edit that Anythingyouwant made when the latter moved that same material to another spot in the lead. And I assume that if Mvbw did that while an RfC was ongoing, then Anything also did it while an RfC was ongoing.
  Plus, I don't want to nitpick, but that RfC is not much of an RfC. I'm not big on formalizing anything, but it seems like a discussion over a few phrases more than a well-formed, clear RfC. The question, as Lankiveil says below, is reasonable, but it's hardly a clear-cut question to be answered with an unambiguous mandate to include or exclude some specific content or organize it in some specific way. I mean, the opening section ends with "Or just listen to the tape yourself." I wouldn't call this RfC ridiculous, but to have that ongoing discussion being used to get someone banned is pushing it too far. If you want RfC's to be binding, set them up better. The second part, for instance, is this: "Saying Trump "appeared to" brag is non-neutral. He bragged, and sources such as the Washington Post article verify this." OK, that's a statement by an editor (you), and editors can discuss. But that's not much of an RfC. If you want to nail an editor for reinserting "appeared to brag" after you said on the talk page you didn't like the phrase, that's your prerogative, of course, but I can't see how this is some grave violation (or any violation at all) which needs an arbitrated slap on the wrist. Drmies (talk) 17:09, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Dr. Fleischman, I stand corrected: I was citing from Talk:Donald_Trump#Language_in_lead_section_about_sexual_misconduct. But I deny that I continue to misread, and my point about Mvbw's edits compared to those of others stand. As for the RfC, well, no conclusion is ever going to be reached on it--and I would like to ask you, since the RfC is technically still ongoing, whether you will also file charges against the editors who have (re-?)inserted the groping content which is currently in the article. Doesn't that very fact suggest the RfC is either impossible or already outdated? Isn't your time better spent dealing with that little tag and rather outlandish claims such as "serious BLP issues"? Drmies (talk) 17:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I might be sympathetic to the comments about the RFC being "used for stonewalling" if it were ridiculous and heading for the snowball clause, but I see a perfectly reasonable question with no clear consensus either way. The user should not have re-inserted this material while the discussion was under way. I'm not sure this rises to a level where sanctions need to be considered (assuming the problematic edits are not repeated), but it might be best if MVBW were to leave this topic area voluntarily for a couple of weeks, which I assume will not be a problem given that it is "not an area of ... major interest". As for the 1RR breach by User:DrFleischman; it is there but given that the user has voluntarily self-reverted I don't see anything to be gained by throwing the book at them. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]
Meh. The election is weeks away and the candidates both highly divisive, anyone expecting calm and measured editing is delusional. Long-time Wikipedians would be best off showing everyone else a bit of class and following WP:BRD with emphasis on the D, but this specific case is in the end a content matter where reasonable people may differ. Perhaps a slap with the WP:TROUT and move on. Guy (Help!) 23:22, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Afterwriting

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Afterwriting

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: RexxS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Afterwriting (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions; Specifically: Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all ~~articles~~ pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

30 October 2016 Reverts CFCF, removing "pseudoscience" from opening sentence.
8 November 2016, 16:28 Removes "pseudoscience" from opening sentence again.
8 November 2016, 16:43 Edit wars to once again remove "pseudoscience" from opening sentence.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

3 October 2015 Blocked for edit-warring
24 June 2010 Blocked for edit-warring

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, also see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The Chiropractic article is covered by discretionary sanctions in the field of pseudoscience. The alert can be found at the top of the talk page Talk:Chiropractic, linking to WP:ARBPS.

The Chiropractic article is currently under a concerted attack to remove the appellation "pseudoscience" from the opening sentence, which reads "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine... ". Afterwriting is now edit-warring to force the removal of the term. There is no doubt that the underlying theory that chiropractic bases itself on, "vertebral subluxations" is considered pseudoscience by mainstream scientific opinion: [37], [38], [39], [40] and our Arbitration Committee has previously endorsed discretionary sanctions against editors on the chiropractic article - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience #2009.

Afterwriting has a history of attempting to force his preferred version by editwarring (see previous blocks and his present talk page), and is now doing this again in an attempt to whitewash Chiropractic contrary to mainstream scientific and medical opinion.

I request that Afterwriting be topic-banned from chiropractic and related pages to prevent further disruption and edit-warring. --RexxS (talk) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notification of this request

Discussion concerning Afterwriting

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Afterwriting

Statement by LeadSongDog

There appears to be a troubling pattern here, edit warring with CFCF on multiple altmed articles and engaging in personal attacks: [41][42][43][44][45] (Full disclosure: I often edit altmed pages and support WP's "bias" towards basing statements on the best-quality evidence available.)LeadSongDog come howl! 19:32, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WhatamIdoing

It looks like CFCF WP:BOLDly added the word pseudoscience to the first/definition sentence of Chiropractic (so that it read "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine...") about three weeks ago. That particular instance of the word pseudoscience has been removed or moved to a different paragraph in the lead by multiple editors several times in the intervening weeks (and also re-added repeatedly by CFCF and other proponents).

There is now an active discussion on the talk page about whether or not pseudoscience should be the sixth word in the article, although it may be generating more heat than light. At the moment, the terms pseudoscience and pseudomedicine appear three times in the lead and three more times in the body of the article, but (since CFCF self-reverted earlier today) it is not currently in the first sentence itself.

In terms of this AE request, I would not fault Afterwriting for removing a heavily disupted word multiple times than I would fault CFCF for re-adding it multiple times – or any of the other editors who have edited that part of the article recently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Afterwriting

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It's reasonable to see a general Wikipedia consensus that Chiropractic should be classified under pseudoscience. But attempts to stuff 'pseudoscience' into the opening sentence of the lead might appear to be provocative and likely to result in future edit wars. Even without User:CFCF's addition of pseudoscience to the opening sentence, we still have pseudoscience mentioned at the end of the first paragraph. We should expect some level of ongoing editing of the lead, but people who want to fine-tune the placement of 'pseudoscience' in the opening paragraph would normally be expected to defer to talk-page consensus. So to sanction Afterwriting for his edits and say nothing about people on the other side could appear unbalanced. (They didn't wait for a talk page consensus either). Unless there is a suggestion to apply page-level sanctions (e.g. putting a general 1RR on Chiropractic) I'd favor closing this request with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I agree with EdJohnston. I do think that Afterwriting is guilty of edit warring, at least in spirit, and should not have reverted RexxS--for now, let's wait and see what the talk page discussion delivers, and let this be a stern reminder to Afterwriting that they need to tread much, much more carefully. Their second revert on 8 November was, as far as I'm concerned, blockable. Drmies (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DaltonCastle

Appeal declined, though the AE block has expired. EdJohnston (talk) 01:28, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: DaltonCastle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:18, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Blocked 48 hours for 1RR violation on Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016

Administrator imposing the sanction: Ks0stm (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: I am notified. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:23, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DaltonCastle

"This was a little harsh. I received no warning. My edits were not contentious. I am curious why the accuser never contacted me at all. This seems soundly unfair. As a token of goodwill I will stay off the page if you lift this block." Copied from the user's talk page per request. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:18, 9 November 2016 (UTC)"[reply]

Statement by Ks0stm

Original change, revert 1, revert 2, revert 3. User had been alerted before. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 02:23, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

DaltonCastle re-inserted the POV tag over the objections of three other editors, twice after being warned here. That makes a total of three reverts on an article restricted to one revert. The block was appropriate and necessary. - Mr X 02:44, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN

I was just on my way to ask for attention to this violation by Dalton Castle, when I saw that he had already been blocked. Dalton Castle repeatedly adding a NPOV tag to the Donald Trump presidential campaign article, despite consensus against it on the talk page. He added it three times in the past 24 hours. [46] [47] [48] He did not start a talk page discussion or identify the specific NPOV violations he was alleging. When someone else started a discussion at the talk page he was dogmatic: "And we keep the tag up until we conclude it comes down." He not only violated the rules, but he still doesn't acknowledge that he did. --MelanieN (talk) 03:43, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by DaltonCastle

Seems pretty clear cut to me, the editor had been advised of the Discretionary Sanctions imposed by the arbitration committee, the block 48 hours it doesn't seem excessive to me. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 08:04, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by DaltonCastle

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I would decline the appeal. If the 1RR was actually violated, then it's reasonable to proceed with an enforcement block unless there is some unusual issue that makes it unnecessary. Having read the thread at Talk:Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016#Why is there an NPOV tag but no talk page discussion? it looks like DaltonCastle had plenty of time to review the situation and reconsider his edits of the NPOV tag. His theory that discussion is required only for removing the NPOV tag but not for adding one seems novel and I doubt it can be found anywhere in our policy. ("..it takes a talk page discussion to reach the consensus to remove the tag - it does not take a consensus to add the tag." There is nothing in the WP:EW policy to support this. EdJohnston (talk) 16:06, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The 48-hour AE block has now expired. Unless there is objection, I would close this appeal with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 16:23, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

bloodofox

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning bloodofox

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: bloodofox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

11/10 Insults, personal attacks. Accusing other editors of "shilling" (i.e. accusing other editors that they're editing Wikipedia for money)
11/10 Insults, personal attacks
11/10 Personal attacks, discussing editors not content

11/9 Attacking and accusing other editors, although, I guess, in general terms, WP:SOAPBOXing.
11/9 Restoring another users' actual trolling on the Hillary Clinton page [49], although to be fair he was also restoring his own comment. BTW, can someone take a look at that other user?
10/24 Insults and personal attacks
10/24 along with [50] and [51] - basically accuses me, and other editors, of working for money to edit Wikipedia on behalf of Hillary Clinton. Now, he does it in a "sarcastic" tone which I guess would allow them some "deniability" when called on it, but the accusation is pretty clear. When I asked him if that was indeed the accusation he was making, bloodofox's response was basically "well, you'd never admit to it anyway"

9/22 Attacks on other editors rather than discussing content
8/25 Refusal to discuss or work towards consensus because other editors are "extensions of the Clinton campaign"
8/29 Makes the accusations that other editors are working for the Clinton campaign explicit. Attacks others. Complete and total failure to assume good faith. I'm sorry but discussing with someone who is so obsessed with attacking others is simply impossible.
8/29 Insults, ridiculous accusations that other editors work "for the Clinton campaign". Language about "ground zero" clearly indicates a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality.

8/16 Insulting other editors and calling them trolls.
8/15 Insulting other editors and calling them trolls. Threats to edit war on the article to get their way. WP:BATTLEGROUND
8/15 Aspersions and personal attacks
8/15 Calling other editors comments in discussion "trolling" without evidence
8/15 More insults and accusations of trolling
8/14 More personal attacks and baseless accusations of bias
8/14 Accusations that other editors on Wikipedia are working for "the Clinton campaign"
8/14 Aspersions and more personal attacks, focus on discussing (and attacking) fellow editors rather than discussing content
8/13 Baseless accusations against other editors
7/8 Old, but shows a long running pattern of using personal attacks and making WP:ASPERSIONS that has been going on for awhile

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts): [52] (note the edit summary)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Honestly I should've filed this long time ago, back in August when this started. But I try to be tolerant of incivility and personal attacks up until the point when these make discussion impossible. Give users another chance etc. But that's the point we've reached here. I have no idea of the quality/nature of bloodofox's contributions in other topic areas, but I honestly have not seen them make a single productive contribution to a discussion in American Politics. bloodofox IMMEDIATELY assumes that anyone who disagrees with them is a "paid shill", that they are working for the Clinton campaign (or were, I guess, looks like no more fat pay checks for me. Sad.) that they are troll, that they work for "Correct a Record" (which is silly, seeing as how that is/was just a website) etc. When bloodofox arrives in a discussion it basically short circuits it and makes any consensus forming process impossible. I had hoped they'd chill out after the election was over, but it appears from their recent comments that if anything it's getting worse. Those diffs from post-election November constitute something like five different insults in less than 24 hours.

And yes, I know some of these diffs are old and in and of themselves maybe they're stale - but going from August, to September, to October to today they show a very clear pattern of verbal abuse directed at other editors, a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and a simple WP:NOTHERE presence in this topic area.

An indef topic ban from AmPol should be placed, and this would allow bloodofox to continue to contribute productively in other areas (assuming their editing in those is fine, like I said, I have no idea). Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

When bloodofox says he "called out" editors for their supposed POV what he really means is that he insulted and attacked them and threw ridiculous accusations at them in order to derail talk page discussions. Yeah, that's 'calling somebody out'. Right.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In particular comments like these "Still shilling?" and "Have some dignitiy" (my dignity is fine, thank you very much) are particularly obnoxious and insulting. These two comments alone should warrant a block in addition to whatever topic ban is imposed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

bloodofox: I was pretty explicit that there's no way for anyone to detect that anyone was working for a campaign in any capacity on Wikipedia - I think that pretty much illustrates the problem. "I can't prove it so I'm just going to accuse and attack".Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:34, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

bloodofox, wikilawyer however you like, but when you say to another editor "still shilling?" you are saying "you did shill". And when you say "you did shill" you are saying you were paid to edit Wikipedia. A person who "shills" is a "shill". So you are calling them a "shill". And this is an extremely obnoxious and serious personal attack. Especially since as you yourself admit, there's absolutely no proof of it (although, quite strangely, you appear to believe that because there is no proof of it, that makes it okay for you to make this attack on others, rather than, as would common sense suggest, the opposite).Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:18, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone please explain to me why MyMoloboaccount is bringing up my supposed "Americaness" or whatever and what is this "charade" that he is referring to or how is this in any way relevant except as what appears to be an attempt to throw around more insults (though it's a peculiar choice of an insult in all honesty)? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:05, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Again, can one of the WP:AE admins please ask Moloboaccount to stop speculating outloud about my nationality/ethnicity since it's completely beside the point and is frankly none of his goddamn business? Should I start picking random editors out here and making stuff about where they're supposedly from and where they supposedly live and what their "true" nationality is? Is that kind of behavior acceptable? And please note that I have asked him several times to stop doing this as it's obviously meant to be either insulting (at least in his mind) or a form of intimidation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:28, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since User:User:Tiptoethrutheminefield has just [53] accused me of "being a shill", do I need to file a separate report or can that be folded into this one? (Also note how it's the same three or four users showing up to every single request in this topic area = Athenan, Tiptoethroughthemindfield, EtienneD, James Lambden - in particular the first three have a long history together). I'd appreciate it if some admins active on this page, like Bishonen, Dennis Brown, Drmies, Lankiveil, Guy, EdJohnston (listing those who have commented here in the recent past) would get around to looking at this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [54]

Discussion concerning USERNAME

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by bloodofox

Ah, now that the campaign is over and it clearly didn't go his way, Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) has apparently decided that it's time to take out his anger on other users who called him out during the election for his blatantly ideological and POV edits. The mysterious "other editors" he's referring to above are in fact a single other extremely ideological editor, an editor he frequently worked with during this period: scjessey (talk · contribs).

Whether it was trying to sanitize anything relating to the DNC (one such example, [55]) or simply perfume a Clinton-related article (notice that the Clinton Foundation remains essentially a puff piece), I was one of many editors who called these two out during the process. In truth, Marek spent the last few months edit-warring with those he disagreed with while using Wikipedia as a political platform (I have a self-imposed policy of 1 revert per 24 hour rule on all articles barring blatant vandalism).

Now, there's so much misinformation attached to his misleading diff annotations above that I can only say that it looks like that, with the election over, Marek has found a little more time on his hands and is using it to go after those he blames. He even resorts to claiming that I've restored vandalism rather than simply my comments and then takes the time to describe Correct the Record as "just a website", lol. Despite the annotations above, however, nobody accused Marek or his pal of working for anyone. And to correct the record I've never been a Trump supporter, BTW.

One thing that is true is that bias has been a major problem on our articles throughout this election cycle. I've called it out as I've seen it and all of my comments above are about concerns regarding bias on the article they're attached to, usually discussing referencing. Meanwhile, Marek has at times resorted to ping spamming me (as some of the diffs above reveal) and relentlessly edit-warred with any editor that came along, at times breaking 1RR on a variety of political articles (ex. [56], [57], [58]).

This is purely ideological revenge editing on the part of the Marek and, frankly, isn't worth the time I'm taking to write this out. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:17, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

—also a quick lol at the block request for telling a user to "have some dignity". :bloodofox: (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@clpo13 (talk · contribs), please provide a diff where I've called anyone a shill. Calling someone a straight up shill versus calling someone out for shilling for a candidate isn't the same thing. You don't have to be an operative to be a biased, non-neutral and highly ideological editor peddling a party line. In fact, as the diffs above demonstrate, I was pretty explicit that there's no way for anyone to detect that anyone was working for a campaign in any capacity on Wikipedia (which is presumably why we have no policy against it to this day). :bloodofox: (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@clpo13 (talk · contribs), I quite explicitly accused—and accuse—these editors of ideological editing and blatant promotion of their candidates on the site under the guise of neutral editing. Thats pretty straightforward. As I said in the diffs above, however, there's no way of confirming, denying, or even blocking anyone for any affiliation with a campaign at this time. I'm not exactly known for beating around the bush on Wikipedia. To be frank, if anyone deserves any sort of sanction here, it's Marek himself and for exactly the reasons I mention in the diffs above. Were they operating as if they were the Wikipedia extension of the Clinton campaign? Absolutely. Were they doing anything but, well, volunteering? No clue. As a result, I haven't accused anyone of working with a campaign. Any suggestion to the contrary is bullshit obfuscation. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:40, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs), I'm not going back and forth with you. Your edit history shows that you're a blatantly ideological edit warrior with zero concern for article neutrality, injecting pro-Clinton and pro-DNC bias into every article you've touched this election season. Along the way you've even somehow mustered the desire to attempt to edit war and whitewash articles in favor of such lovable figures as Debbie Wasserman Schultz (of course, that didn't fly). Sure, all that nastiness was ultimately for nothing but there are better ways to take out your personal frustrations than on wasting the time of others on Wikipedia.

And, gee, all this talk about concern regarding bias on these articles and the presence of the Clinton campaign. Outside of Correct the Record, there's also this interesting e-mail implying pretty strongly that the DNC has either been editing the Debbie Wasserman Schultz article (or looking to do so) since at least May of 2016. I mean, who woulda thunk it, right? :bloodofox: (talk) 20:51, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk · contribs), while I stand by all of my edits (including diffs above, regardless of Marek's dishonest—and frankly goofy—commentary) and I believe they hardly qualify as "rope", what incident are you referring to? :bloodofox: (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

I almost warned bloodofox this morning when I saw his harsh personal attack at talk:Hillary Clinton. I had no idea that there was such an ongoing pattern of disruption as evidenced in the diffs provided above. The Arbcom case findings of fact were clear that such behavior is prohibited.- Mr X 16:40, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SashiRolls: What the actual heck are you talking about? This page is for requesting enforcement of Arbcom remedies, not for stream of consciousness story telling.- Mr X 17:22, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SashiRolls

In the Good Soldier Švejk, there is a character by the name of Marek, Volunteer Marek. According to Wikipedia, "The character of one-year volunteer Marek is to some degree a self-portrait by the author, who was himself a one-year volunteer in the 91st. For example, Marek — like Hašek — was fired from the editorship of a natural history magazine after writing articles about imaginary animals. Is appointed the battalion historian by Ságner and occupies himself with devising memorable and heroic deaths in advance for his colleagues." I can't believe Volunteer Marek is back here on AE clamoring for more heads. smh. will add more if absolutely necessary. SashiRolls (talk) 17:03, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, forgot this is a diff culture:, here are some more diffs of 1RR violations from trusty Volunteer Marek: 18:12 24 Oct 16:18 24 Oct (Though I stayed away from Clinton most of the silly season (as you know @MrX:), I was very surprised to read the Foundation page when I got to it, which I never would have, except that well, y'all didn't like what I was working on earlier...) I'm sorry I am not a diff culture native, in my world the names you chose are important, as is how you talk about including or excluding things from a page. This is poorly reflected in diff culture. :) SashiRolls (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

also, would like to add that words like "(cyber) shilling", "hack", "whitewash", "pinkwash", etc. have not yet been deleted from the language. In fact, shilling, in particular seems to be fighting nobly for its existence despite no longer being a legal tender coin. ^^ (ngrams: shilling, hack) SashiRolls (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by clpo13

Calling anyone a shill, under any circumstances, should be met with sanctions. American politics is a bitter enough topic without unfounded accusations of paid or otherwise influenced editing. Claims of biased editing can be made without such a loaded word. clpo13_(talk) 18:07, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Bloodofox: Oh well, that changes everything. So long as you don't label someone, you can safely accuse them of all sorts of things. "I didn't call them a vandal. I just said they were vandalizing articles.", etc. No matter how you word it, it's a unnecessary comment that only inflames the situation. Throwing accusations around doesn't help anything. clpo13_(talk) 18:31, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MyMoloboaccount

Plenty of the alleged proofs of bloodfox offensive remarkes actually lead to innocent statements like Hopefully you'll meet the next Wiki-gang on the block sometime soon and neutrality rather than political preference will win out. I remember VM making far more offensive comments without getting sanctions. Seems this is a case of a political spat resulting from HC's failure to win the election and VM being upset about this. Anyway can we finally drop the charade and call Volunteer Marek an American without him getting into a fit about supposed outing? The comments and edits in past couple of months make it clear that he is one. Thats all from me, I guess, people should cheer up, make Wikipedia great again and PRAISE KEK!.

Volunteer_Marek-there is nothing insulting in being American or editing from USA. Many editors in the past have been confused by your nickname and thought you are from Poland, that is is all. As to supposed, I think your edits and comments about voting in recent US elections make it clear anyway(and since we are friends of Facebook I know that indeed it is true :P). It's no big deal but clears up confusion, and for some reason in the past you treated it as very big outing.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Athenean

Anyone familiar with this topic area knows full well that VM comes here with unclean hands. Volunteer Marek complaining about another user being incivil is quite the irony. VM has been pushing a strong POV in this area from day 1, with typical incivility. Just one of many examples [59] [60]. It's not hard to find such examples. Many of his talkpage contribs are laced with accusations of bad faith and condescension, designed to get under his opponents' skin as much as possible without quite crossing the line into outright name calling. In addition to incivility, he edit-wars frequently, afterwards claiming to "forget" that an article is under 1RR [61]. And just recently he agreed to a voluntary 1RR restriction to narrowly avert a topic ban [62]. Given Marek's unclean hands, the request has no merit and should be struck. Athenean (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield

Regarding the "shilling" accusation, there is no question that Volunteer Marek has been a shill in the past. His activities in the past have at certain times fitted the definition of shill - appearing to act independently but in fact acting as part of an organized group and behaving according to a predetermined plan so as to realize a particular goal. That was proven in a previous notable case. This does not make bloodofox's accusation / implication of shilling justified, but it questions the real level of offense felt by VM. I don't find VM's assertion that he felt it "obnoxious and insulting" to be particularly credible. The insults and personal attacks seem mild stuff when taken one at a time and this case looks a lot like Volunteer Marek allowing another editor to produce enough rope to hang themselves. Taken as a whole there probably is enough rope here - and little in the cited posts of bloodofox cogently address content issues. But I suspect only one side is being shown and I wonder about what content issues and disagreements produced these exchanges. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 04:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning USERNAME

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I have blocked Tiptoe for the "shill" comment, for 72 hours. It exhibits a complete lack of good faith, and suggests a kind of "you were asking for it" justification. Drmies (talk) 19:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Request concerning DevilWearsBrioni (continued 1)

Concerning a request which is now in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive202#Request concerning DevilWearsBrioni. It continues a long discussion which has been at:
@SilentResident, Robert McClenon, Athenean, Alexikoua, Resnjari, Robert McClenon, and TransporterMan: please keep discussion as concise as possible and come to a decision as what is to happen with User:DevilWearsBrioni, and any other related matters. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:54, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anthony Appleyard:, i have no idea. The discussion on Brioni got transferred to the archive, yet there was no outcome. Because of that mediation discussion is in hiatus too. Have no idea in this instance what will happen. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:14, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I agree with what the vast majority of the editors said, including Athenean, Robert McClenon, Iazyges, and Alexikoua, that action has to be taken against DevilWearsBrioni, either in the form of limited sanctions or warnings.

Although, personally I couldn't recommend sending him mere warnings this time, given how he has ignored all previous warnings in the past. For this reason, I believe that he be banned from editing the Expulsion of Cham Albanians ever again. An article-specific sanction on Expulsion of Cham Albanians could the best response to his constant disruptions. -- SILENTRESIDENT 13:00, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree, i think the best option would be a very limited ban, perhaps to all things cham related? That may be too harsh however, I could see how a one article ban would likely work better. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, a very limited ban on very specific articles rather than a generic topic-ban of a wide range of articles is what I believe to be fair for DevilWearsBrioni, given how most of his editorial misconducts and disruptions are concentrated to specific articles, not to all. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:11, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am puzzled. It appeared that the case had gone into mediation, and that there had been no disruptive editing of the article itself after the start of mediation. It appears that mediation is stalled, but mediation is privileged, and failure to cooperate with mediation is not sanctionable. I don't see any disruptive edits by DWB after the start of mediation. Were there disruptive edits before the start of mediation, but after DWB was alerted? This looks to me, unfortunately, like an effort at dumping on an editor who is outnumbered. Has the mediation failed, anyway, or should it be resumed? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:34, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Robert, if you do believe that DevilWearsBrioni has remedied himself and "dropped the stick" of his personal perceptions of OR/NOR and that he won't once again stubbornly resume his disruptions, then, so be it. A strongly-worded warning should be given to him, but, if he ever resumes his disruptions on Albanian-related articles again, then a ban is on way for him. I am sorry if I can't exactly share your faith and optimism about him showing a better editorial conduct in the future, because he is really stubborn beyond limits. From what I can see, he has given us not even a slightest sign that he is letting it go. That he has refrained from any new disruptions during the October month, does not mean he has stopped with his disruptions forever. As you can see, it is not unusual for him to stop his disruptions for a long period and then suddenly resume them, at a later time, as he has done in September, after a long August break. Given this, what can reassure us that he wont resume them once Anthony Appleyard's mediation is over, like how he has already done after Iazyges's mediation was over? This is a rather rhetorical question, because history tends to repeat itself and I just want to be cautious. -- SILENTRESIDENT 17:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree, i think it was less than a week between me closing the dispute and recommending RFC/ mediation, and him continuing disruption. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:13, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon: I'm equally puzzled. Not only does this request not follow the required AE template, Anthony has for some strange reason included a link to a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with me, while also pinging involved editors and urging them to "come to a decision as what is to happen with User:DevilWearsBrion". I'm once again baffled by the actions of Anthony. This looks to me, unfortunately, like an effort at dumping on an editor who is outnumbered. That’s an oddly accurate assessment from someone who partook in the pile on against me at AN/I and then later here at AE. What changed since then?

@Iazyges: This was your closing statement, which contained several inaccuracies, at DRN. You then went on to remove the OR tag from the article since you apparently had decided that it wasn't OR. If you still believe you were justified in removing the OR tag because of your supposed authority as a DRN volunteer, then please say so. I'm still not clear on your position concerning this. Do you still believe that you have the authority to issue decisions? Or were you mistaken in believing so?

@SilentResident: You will soon be given another opportunity to provide diffs as evidence for the things you've repeatedly accused me of, e.g. multiple 3RR breaches. You've failed to do so every time I've requested it. This may give credence to what I've said about you creating a false narrative about me, don't you think? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with @Robert McClenon:'s assessment of the situation regarding Brioni. On my part i am ready to resume mediation. That matter regarding the Chams should have went there long ago, then when it did later. Now its there and should be dealt with there with the final outcome being binding for all editors. Much has been said of Brioni's behavior in here. However what has been ignored is that he has on many an article been a editor who has held a high esteem for wp:reliable and wp:secondary scholarship and used it in the article himself while also clearing up multiple problems of synthesis and other issues. A case in point is the Fustanella page [63] (see talk: [64]). Brioni has shown a commitment to upholding Wikipedia standards. The outcome here should be a final warning and with the resumption of the mediation process. With the conclusion of that (whenever that happens), if further issues continue then the book can be thrown in its entirety if rules are broken, as with all editors. Best.Resnjari (talk) 03:04, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You may have not understood the Mediation rules, Resnjari, and why the DevilWearsBrioni case can not be resolved through mediations. If you read the Mediation faq, you will find that the Mediation Policy clearly states:

"The basic aim of mediation is to help Wikipedia editors to contribute willingly together by helping to resolve their good-faith disagreements over article content'. As above, the mediation process is unsuitable for complaints about the behaviour of other editors; these should be directed to a project administrator (e.g. at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard) for evaluation. Mediation equally is not suited to parties who are disagreeing "for the sake of disagreeing" or who have no intention of compromising or discussing the thinking behind their positions. It is not an aim of mediation to produce mutual amity between the disputants, but increased tolerance and respect is an important goal."

The Mediators intervening and helping in resolving content disputes could have been perfect if our case here was just a mere content dispute and nothing else. The Mediators can not intervene or help in regards to editorial misconducts by certain editors here who have been ramming content into the article and failed to show any willingness for compromises, and kept assuming bad faith of any editor they disagreed with. The editors refusing to think beyond their stubborn positions and reach a consensus with the rest of the community is what caused the current deadlock. Seeking a compromise which complies with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, did not prevent them from acting as if they are owners to the article and edit wars to ensue and Edit Warnings / ARBMAC Warnings to be given on their Talks. Since the Mediators are not here to tackle with the core of the present issues, and since a certain user here was able to ignore the outcomes of previous Mediations, then what can guarantee that the new Mediation's outcome won't be ignored again? Please. If you really wanted to participate in a mediation, then why haven't you done so in either Iazyge's or Anthony Appleyard's mediations? You had your chance you participate in two mediations thus far, but you have consciously chosen to be absent from both, unlike me, who participated in both mediations and who endured DevilWearsBrioni's endless rattles. Now, if you may, Anthony Appleyard was very clear: please keep discussion as concise as possible and come to a decision as what is to happen with User:DevilWearsBrioni, and any other related matters.. Please stick to this. -- SILENTRESIDENT 11:52, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for highlighting the vexatious nature of this complaint: "The mediation process is unsuitable for complaints about the behaviour of other editors." Here are some of the things you were allowed to say about me with impunity during mediation:

~~"not befitting a reliable and honest editor of Wikipedia"~~

"The editor DevilWearsBrioni must understand that editorial bias and arrogant behavior can not be tolerated"

"DevilWearsBrioni is not a suitable and accountable editor for editing and improving ARBMAC-protected articles"

"He is only using OR and SYNTH as a trojan horse to impose certain POV"

"A very long dragging of feet for nothing besides listening to DevilWearsBrioni's POV everyday"

~~"he has resorted thousands of times into disruptive edits and tactics to achieve this goal."~~

Contrary to what mediation policy claims, attacking the character of editors and lobbying for sanctions against them during mediation is totally fine apparently(?). I don't expect this to matter since mediation is privileged, but it's worth bringing up for context. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:44, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

DevilWearsBrioni, as you may be aware, my comments on your behavior were the result of your failure to abide by the mediation's procedures which require that every participant sticks within the discussion's framework set by the mediator. You have been repeatedly called by both Robert and Anthony to stick to the point during mediation, but you have failed and refused, and this exactly is the exact reason I explained to Anthony and Robert why the idea for Mediation turned out to be UNSUITABLE for DISRUPTIVE EDITORS such as you, and hence my above sentences about you. Robert's mistake was to try resolve disputes caused by bad faith and disruptive editorial conduct through mediation, even when the rules are very clear for such cases: that a Mediation can not tackle effectively any cases of disruption. And if my memory does not fail me, I have ALREADY warned Robert that any new Mediations are bound to fail, in this talk page here: [65], where I told him: "I have a feeling that from the moment certain editors who evidently have not respected the previous Mediations, a new Mediation won't make any difference. History tends to repeat and all what we may accomplish at the end is just dragging our feet around without actually tackling the editors responsible for their disruptive behavior." Everyone can see how I predicted the failure of any new mediations, for the fact that their procedures are not suitable for resolving such cases of disruption, and, as everyone can see now, Anthony's Mediation was no exception to this rule: his mediation was bound to fail from the start due to the unusual case of disruption we had to deal with. But Robert, despite my warnings and cautions, has ignored me and he boldly proceed to request mediation nevertheless. But I do not blame Robert at all. In fact, I congratulate him and I praise him for his tireless and sincere efforts to resolve this notorious OR/SYNTH case through peaceful means. I completely admire Robert for his peaceful efforts to resolve such cases, but thing is, you are extremely stubborn editor, and such stubbornness is the exact reason Robert's efforts failed, Anthony's mediation failed, Iazyge's mediation failed, disruption kept ongoing for 10 months, and more. Like I said: mediations are unsuitable places for disruptive editors. Am I clear or do I have to repeat myself? -- SILENTRESIDENT 13:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As i said before, i am still in agreement with Robert McClenon's assessment of the situation. The issue that has arisen here is that Brioni is disruptive when editing. All the examples cited here by other editors go back to earlier in the year. Yet this case was brought after the issue regarding the Chams article went to mediation. If there was such a problematic issue, should not the issue regarding behavior been brought long ago to this forum instead of after mediation occurred ? The reason why things have gone here or there is because this matter should have gone to mediation much earlier. No editor involved in that discussion in the talk page is clean. Its why mediation is needed in the end. At mediation whatever the outcome is, its final and must be accepted by all. This article is complex and that process should resume instead of time being wasted here. A warning as a final outcome would do with proper notification. On my part i am ready to resume the mediation process.Resnjari (talk) 14:20, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Even more mediation with DevilWearsBrioni? Sorry but this ain't happening. I don't have all the time for him. DevilWearsBrioni already had more chances to remedy himself and he has drawn more attention than most disruptive editors normally could, but this farce has to come to an end now. It is time to stop dragging our feet around this OR/SYNTH case forever and finally have something be done with that user. Either ban him, either warn him, but in all case, put this to an end so we all can move on. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:03, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not a editor participates in mediation is a separate matter for them to consider. On my part, I will be involved there. Like i said before i am in agreement with Robert's assessment of the issue regarding Brioni.Resnjari (talk) 15:42, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thought and Suggestion

First, it appears to be that the formal mediation has failed. Either the editors who disagree with DWB should withdraw from the mediation on grounds that it has failed, or User:Anthony Appleyard can (if the Mediation Committee permits) formally declare the mediation to have failed. Second, the next step is to resume discussion on the article talk page, and DWB has been formally alerted to discretionary sanctions. I don't see this Arbitration Enforcement request as serving any useful purpose. Close it somehow. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:13, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon: I better declare that this mediation has failed. It remains to decide what to do with DWB. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 17:28, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I agree, and I have already decided to withdraw from Anthony Appleyard's mediation. Note: it is not Anthony's fault, nor Robert's fault. Just it couldn't work. If any new mediations are to be called in the future, they better be requested on grounds of resolving content disputes between non-disruptive editors as per Mediation's rules, and not on grounds of resolving disputes caused by certain disruptive editors, like I explained in a message to Anthony and Iazyges on my talk page. Again, I appreciate everyone for your tireless efforts to resolve the DevilWearsBrioni's notorious OR/SYNTH case. You have my thanks. -- SILENTRESIDENT 18:03, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon and Anthony Appleyard:, how has mediation failed ? Four editors are listed for mediation. Brioni and Silent partook in the discussion regarding certain issues while others did not at that point in time. On my part i thought those two editors were capable and also was under the assumption that such a discussion on that forum would be over time without time constraints. I had to attend to a few things in my personal life back then. In no way did it mean that a discussion of all issues concerning the article was brought up for discussion, especially by me. What is the alternative? More long winded commentary in the talk or possible edit warring over time by other editors. Those outcomes are even more dispiriting and disruptive. This article is one of the few remaining articles of consequence for at least the Albanian Wikipedia project needing to be addressed and consensus at times has been skewed due to numbers and not consideration of the scholarship. Closing mediation will just mean that this article becomes a hotspot for the usual Balkan dispute that makes some editors more quick to launch enforcement requests than to be constructive in making the article better (just going by personal experience on this one).Resnjari (talk) 20:01, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Resnjari - Whether the mediation has failed is, in the end, the judgment of the mediator, User:Anthony Appleyard, but User:SilentResident appears to think (as do I, but I am not a participant), that User:DevilWearsBrioni was filibustering. If you and the mediator think that mediation will work, more power to you. I had hoped that mediation would work, but there are other things that I hope for also. In any event, this is not the place to discuss whether to mediate, and this does not appear to be a properly filed request for Arbitration Enforcement. What do you, User:Resnjari, propose? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Resnjari: for years, and before DevilWearsBrioni appears, you didn't had any problem using the talk pages for reaching a consensus with other editors, including myself, for improvements and additions on various Balkan articles, including the article Expulsion of Cham Albanians. And this, without the help of the mediators. Unlike DevilWearsBrioni, you have managed just fine to use the talk page for discussing the changes for reaching consensus with others, even in the most difficult of all Balkan articles. Try using the Talk Pages and if you ever run into any problems or disagreements with other editors, Wikipedia offers an array of options for resolving them. As long as you and the others respect the rules, everything should be fine. And as for the current mediation, it is over for me, I am afraid. And I have withdrawn my participation as I do not think I can stick around the same case forever. Sorry. If you want to discuss anything, use the talk page, as User:Robert McClenon has suggested. As for me, I am going to take a much much needed break from the pixelated and bureaucratic world known as Wikipedia. I wish you all the best. -- SILENTRESIDENT 20:36, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For me i would say to continue mediation. A final warning should be given here to all that only the scholarship should be the focus. No other shenanigans. Who ever stuffs up there (no more chances) loses the privilege and gets excluded from participating with the addition of further enforcement action (topic bans etc). Otherwise this will go on forever and in future there might be other editors creating other headaches on that article. User:Robert McClenon, you have seen how these Balkan related topics can go with disputes and become nightmarish. Mediation at least has a binding and final outcome. This article is one of those that requires a more prudent approach due too the complexity of the subject matter. A reconsideration by User:Anthony Appleyard of keeping open mediation would be most appreciated. At least two other editors involved should also have a chance to participate.Resnjari (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:SilentResident I have used talkpages extensively and some editors have said i use them too much. This article though has reached many impasses. On the mediation page looking at it, the is a sense that one issue was being rushed and another introduced. It should be done one at a time with Anthony at the end saying this is decided or that is decided before another issue is raised. All at once is not a good thing and I thought little things would be resolved when the process started between both of you. Anyway mediation allows for a prolonged discussion without the added stress factor of haste. Maybe we can put it off for a week or two and everyone comes back with fresh eyes and a clear head (and from the date of resumption all need to participate). If mediation is closed the article has issues relating to the intro and other matters that will just fester and cause more problems that will stir passions among Greek and Albanian Wikipedians instead of a constrictive outcome. I have edited many contentious articles and have seen many have frustration guide their editing instead of guidelines and scholarship. Lets finish this off with a binding outcome in mediation.Resnjari (talk) 21:04, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Resnjari - Would someone please provide me with a link to the statement that mediation has a binding and final outcome? I was not aware of that. A Request for Comments has a binding outcome, although nothing in Wikipedia is final because consensus can change. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Robert McClenon, as far as I know, no content can be "final". Everything in Wikipedia, be them rules, or articles, or whatever, can change, be improved or overwritten. Likewise, the content in the pages gets updated with new information and sources. Everything is susceptible to changes, even editorial consensuses cannot stay the same for ever and can be challenged at any time, as long as they are in accordance with Wikipedia's principles and rules. After all, the flow of information and sources in the world is constant, by both new and old scholars, and it is inevitable for Wikipedia to be updated to reflect the new information. I assume Resnjari meant the decisions being binding to the participants of the mediation? if yes, this is a totally different thing. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:40, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, in addition to what Robert said about consensus can change, certain rules are above consensus, such as WP:NPOV which states: This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:50, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Robert McClenon the final sentence of the mediation policy WP:M says: "The purpose of mediation is to secure a result that benefits the encyclopedia—not to ensure fairness for any one contributor. Mediators work with disputants but for the encyclopedia." In my comments i had that in mind and interpreted it as inferring something binding or at least towards being something final in the scope of discussing a certain matter at that point in time. I am aware that things are liable to change depending on the circumstances of new scholarship etc etc. I hope that clears things on my part. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:55, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am off to bed on my side of the world as i have stayed up too late. Ping me for further developments. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Resnjari, SilentResident, and Robert McClenon: OK, keep mediation open, if it will be any use, with DevilWearsBrioni continuing to filibuster. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:59, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anthony Appleyard:~~Oh my... a mediation where the filibuster is the sole participant in it? I am up for it (as observer, not as participant), I could love see a filibuster's production of kilobytes... :-)~~

Anthony, may I ask, will you inform me about the procedures of the mediation's closure, or do I have just to withdraw from it? In this case, do I have follow any specific steps (such as deleting my name from the Mediation's list of participants or whatever)? My apologies for my inexperience, this is my first time in a mediation and I am unsure about how the procedures really work. -- SILENTRESIDENT 00:36, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SilentResident: User:TransporterMan seems to be in charge of mediations. Best tell him, if you as well as me see no more use in trying to negotiate with DWB. I as an admin could block him any time, but I better follow the usual procedure. And, please everybody, try to keep discussion concise. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:50, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Per the statement of the mediator that the mediation has no ongoing hope of resolution, I have closed the mediation case. The privilege of mediation still applies, however, and anything heretofore said or done in the course of mediation may not be used as evidence in this or any other conduct proceeding. For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 23:19, 13 November 2016 (UTC) (Chairperson)[reply]

Thought and Suggestion (part 2)

Towns Hill

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Towns Hill

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: EvergreenFir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:36, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

07:03, 18 October 2016 Edit on Kashmir related to Dogra dynasty, which would fall under Pakistani-Indian conflict.
09:40, 10 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan saying "Since 1989, thousands of Kashmiri Muslim refugees have sought refuge in Pakistan, complaining that many of the refugee women had been raped by Indian soldiers and that they were forced out of their homes by the soldiers." Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
22:11, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan about the First Kashmir War, the partition of India, the rape of Kashmiri women by Indian soldiers, and genocide. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
21:56, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan which copied material from Partition of India. Similar to 22:11, 12 November 2016 edit. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
02:35, 14 November 2016 edit made after user replied to this AE. Edit falls under tban.
02:38, 14 November 2016 Same as above

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

02:49, 24 March 2016 Discretionary sanctions (1RR) placed on user by Slakr for 1 month
00:20, 1 April 2016 Blocked by Drmies for 60 hours for edit warring on Bangladesh Liberation War.
15:12, 15 May 2016 Topic banned from "Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh." by EdJohnston. Can be appealed after 6 months.
01:02, 1 October 2016 Blocked by Lankiveil for 72 hours for topic ban violation as a result of previous AE filing

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 15:12, 15 May 2016 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Other edits "toe the line" but these were the most egregious. In the previous AE filing, the validity of the Bangladesh topic ban was questioned as it's not explicitly mentioned in WP:ARBIPA so I have excluded diffs related to violation of that aspect of the topic ban.

@Mar4d: you'll have to ask EdJohnston why he did the topic ban. It appears to be because the user was disruptive. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

19:37, 13 November 2016

Discussion concerning Towns Hill

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Towns Hill

The original ban was imposed invalidly to begin with. It was hastily issued and based upon one editor's incendiary comment to an admin's talk page. I was never reported at AE and was not even given a chance to defend myself. I was banned on a comment of an editor who went on admin shopping and knew which admin would be more than willing to entertain his request because that specific admin has been mentioning distributing topic-bans on forums in the past. Towns_Hill 21:59, 13 November 2016 (UTC) Towns Hill

Statement by Mar4d

No comment on the ruling, but as far as this whole sanction on Towns Hill is concerned, it really appears counterproductive and pointless to me, in my opinion. I think the purpose of sanctions is not punitive, but preventative. This filing appears to give an impression of the former. Some of the diffs cited above for example appear to be actually productive edits, and appear to improve article content (particularly those on the ethnic Kashmiris page). This doesn't harm Wikipedia so long as Towns Hill makes sure his additions are reliably sourced and verifiable. Towns Hill has kept to his restriction for a few months, and I think he has the potential to be a productive editor. Instead of wasting time on these nitty-gritty enforcements, I for one think we should re-visit the sanctions in the first place, and try to re-integrate TH into editing. Why were they enforced, and what can/should be improved? I would be happy to guide TH or provide assistance if necessary. Mar4d (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kautilya3

First of all, to clarify my position on EdJohnston's topic ban. I had misread the topic ban wording in the first instance and thought that it was a ban on all India and Pakistan pages. So I thought it was too severe. When I did finally notice that it was limited to India-Pakistan conflicts, I thought the ban was appropriate.

When Towns Hill came on the scene, pretty much all the India-Pakistan conflict pages went up in flames. If the ban is lifted, I am afraid we might go back to the same situation. I did try to engage with Towns Hill quite seriously prior to the ban, e.g., here, but I am afraid it fell on deaf ears. Has his behaviour improved since the ban? I think not.

Here, for instance, is an edit where Towns Hill got into a dispute (on Kashmiri diaspora). Whereas I tried to open a talk page discussion to try and find a resolution, Towns Hill put his foot down and reinstated his edit. In this instance, I agree with Towns Hill on the merits of the issue, but not with his way of dealing with it. Kashmiri diaspora is a little corner, where this behaviour didn't give rise to any great problems. If he does this kind of thing again at Bangladesh liberation war, we will again have flame wars.

So my recommendation is to cut him some slack in dealing with Kashmir, which is his special interest, but continue the wider topic ban until he learns to finds his way around WP:NPOV and resolving disputes amicably. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Towns Hill

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Noticing that User:Mar4d and User:Kautilya3 see value in User:Towns Hill's edits, I asked User:EvergreenFir on their talk page about the idea of lifting the ban. It is disappointing that Towns Hill seems unable to follow the terms of the existing ban, but if the ban is lifted this problem will no longer occur. Any comments? If anyone wants to review their edits, notice that all their warnings and blocks (since account creation in January) are still visible at User talk:Towns Hill. Towns Hill does not seem to have much insight into which of their edits might be controversial, and they have gotten into edit wars, but they sometimes do good work. They seem not to understand either 3RR or 1RR, so if these problems recur, they will probably get blocked again.
To get a quick overview of the problems with Towns Hill you might look at User talk:Towns Hill#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction 2 and the discussion that follows it. Towns Hill does have academic knowledge, but switches into battleground mode easily when they feel people are opposing them unfairly. EdJohnston (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a fan of lifting restrictions because people refuse to abide by them, however productive some of their edits may be judged by others. The correct route to appeal a sanction is not an enforcement request by someone concerned about violation of the sanction. Guy (Help!) 23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

EEng

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning EEng

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: The Wordsmith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: EEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

User:EEng contained massive BLP violations (see below).

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months [66].

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Userpage contained massive, massive BLP violations, including calling public figures "pussies", extensive allegations of Donald Trump being a Nazi, snippets of speeches with things Trump rails against wikilinked to Jews, accusations of racism, antisemitism, and a whole lot that I could devote many paragraphs to. Frankly, it is the worst BLP violation in userspace I've seen in a long time. I'm baffled that it was allowed to stand for this long, with a number of veteran editors even applauding the effort on his talkpage and contributing to it. Aside from the obvious BLP, we also have WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:UP#POLEMIC that this crosses the line on. I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs, but as I'm recused from AP2 enforcement I'm not going to take further unilateral action, and instead will bring it here for uninvolved admin input. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Iridescent: That "one section" spans roughly half of a very, very large page. It also goes back quite far into the history. The libel was bad enough, in my estimation, that a simple section blanking or RevDel was not sufficient to excise it. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:54, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[67]

Discussion concerning EEng

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by EEng

To show that Wordsmith has misinterpreted this material is impossible at the moment, since he's jumped the gun and deleted the page. But in brief (as explained on the page itself) my user page is meant to be a source of amusement for editors taking a break from the humdrum workaday cares of editing, and many comments on my talk page attest to its success along those lines. Obviously I would never seriously compare anyone to Hitler (except maybe Hitler, I guess) because that would be a BLP violation.
That the situation isn't nearly as clearcut at Wordsmith seem to think is well-illustrated by the fact that at least one editor was able to characterize me as "a Donald Trump supporter" [68].
Wordsmith's unilateral deletion of the page in advance of discussion is obviously inappropriate, give that (a) as he explicitly points out, a large number of admins are aware of its content and do not share his concerns, and (b) most of the material on the page has nothing to do with his complaint anyway, yet has been thrown out with the bathwater.

Those three points aside, since the election's now over and the amusement potential has drained from the situation, I'm happy to let the chips fall where they may, according to the community's judgment. E Eng 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Floquenbeam

Meh. Won't argue with the deletion, but no sanction needed, I don't imagine EEng is going to reinstate it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarify: Per Iri below, I won't argue with deletion of the portion that Wordsmith finds objectionable, and I don't imagine EEng is going to reinstate the portion that Wordsmith finds objectionable. The rest of it can surely be left alone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Iridescent

Looking at the page, you only appear to have a problem with one section, since everything from "Some Entertaining Diversions" onwards is just the straightforward stuff one finds on many userpages—not my cup of tea (IMO the principle of "the more images a user has on their userpage, the less likely their opinions will be worth reading" is generally a fairly firm rule), but entirely non-controversial. Why the need for a scorched-earth deletion rather than just removing the section you found objectionable? ‑ Iridescent 22:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the history up to 14 June, which took all of three mouse clicks, and doesn't appear to include anything contentious. While I appreciate WP:ARBAPDS technically covers "all pages relating to American politics", in practice we've always allowed very broad leeway for people to make political comments pro-or-anti current politicians on their user and talk pages provided they're not grossly offensive to the extent they have a chilling effect on other editors; while I agree this crossed the WP:POLEMIC line I'd certainly not want to see any sanction here. ‑ Iridescent 23:05, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Martinevans123

I've also frequently compared Trump to Hitler. I've even called him "Orange Hitler" a few times. It's a common problem. But you're saying that entire page was devoted to a BLP violation of that one individual? Does policy demand that the entire page is disappeared, without any request at all being made to the owner to delete the offending parts? A lot of time and effort went into constructing the jokes on that page and some of them were even clever and funny. It brought amusement to many people. I think you're risking a lot of editors seeing your enforcement as taking "a sledgehammer to crack a nut". Folks may even think you're a Trump sympathiser. I guess that's a risk you think is worth taking. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can the word "plethora" include Democrat politicians? Or is such a suggestion "breaching AE protocol"? Yes, you are right, User:BU Rob13, Trump is no pussy. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:08, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Davey2010

IMHO the page hadn't contained any BLP violations and being totally honest this whole enforcement thing didn't need to happen either ... TW could've simply left a message and saved all our times being wasted, Userpage should be reinstated and TW should move on. –Davey2010^Talk 23:09, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by HBH

Comparing anyone or anything to Hitler is beyond the pale. Good work, Herr Wordsmith --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 23:13, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know that poor Donald couldn't serve his country in the armed forces because of heel spurs? ... but, you know, something just doesn't seem to quite click with that story. Allegedly. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

Statement by BU Rob13

I'd like to see any editor assert, in good faith, that calling one of Trump's sons "a chip off the old pussy" is not a BLP violation. I also eagerly await any good-faith attempts to justify comparing Trump's wife to a sex doll. Or perhaps the assertion that Chris Christie has a fetish for overweight women. Gamaliel resigned as an arbitrator and administrator in no small part because of referring to Trump's hands as being small. This goes so far beyond that. This is the worst BLP violation I have ever seen, by far, and it targets many of individuals. It is nothing short of an attack page. As for those saying this should have been resolved through discussion, I would agree with you, if not for the extremely long and detailed discussion on EEng's talk page, which he summarily ignored, deleting no content whatsoever. At the very least, a topic ban from modern American politics is necessary. I would restrict it to the Trump family if not for the plethora of other politicians targeted on this user page. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 23:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@JzG: If you truly believe this is an instance of WP:CRYBLP, would you please affirmatively state that you see no BLP issues with comparing Trump's wife to a sex doll, calling Trump's son a "chip off the old pussy", and stating that Chris Christie has a fetish for overweight women? ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@K.e.coffman: Please cite the reliable sources that reported the three things I listed above or explain how they do not fall afoul of BLP despite being obviously inflammatory statements about living people. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 00:20, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@K.e.coffman: These were not, in any way, the only statements. There were headings upon headings dedicated to this stuff, and I haven't even picked out the worst ones, as the worst ones should be left buried. This made up well over half of the page. EEng was spoken to and refused to remove the content, as I linked above. I have to wonder why you're leaping to the defense of alleged serious BLP violations that you haven't actually seen. Isn't that a recipe for disaster? I can tell you that about half a dozen experienced administrators looked this over in IRC before this was deleted, and there was universal horror at just how bad the content was. This was described by administrators who have worked in this topic area for over half a decade as the worst BLP violation they've seen, bar none, in years. Does that not give you some pause to think that, perhaps, we aren't just spouting off about nothing, given that you haven't seen the page in its entirety? ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 00:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Softlavender

I don't see any talk-page discussion with EEng about any concerns regarding his userpage: [69]. As of this writing, I do not see any WP:CONSENSUS here that the userpage should have been deleted. I do not see any WP:MFD filed on the page. The Wordsmith deleted it as WP:G10, G10. Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose (underscoring mine), which it clearly wasn't. Above he states "I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs", but it is a userpage, not a BLP, not an article, which the Arb ruling specifically refers to. Nor was there any discussion whatsoever on the matter before this summary deletion of this 113,000-byte humor page, which was mostly gentle humor about Wikipedia. EEng's userpage has been a source of blessed humor and relief from the frequent problems of Wikipedia for many many years. His page has 164 watchers [70], among them numerous admins. I agree with EEng above that:

Wordsmith's unilateral deletion of the page in advance of discussion is obviously inappropriate, give that (a) as he explicitly points out, a large number of admins are aware of its content and do not share his concerns, and (b) most of the material on the page has nothing to do with his complaint anyway, yet has been thrown out with the bathwater.

This entire deletion action was out-of-process, and the rationales applied for summarily deleting without any discussion whatsoever did not even apply. Moreover, there is no way for the community at large to adequately discuss the matter since the material in question has vanished. Consequently, I request a restoration of the entire page. If it then needs to be collapsed or blanked while discussion proceeds, fair enough, but we can't let this unauthorized deletion stand since it was clearly not done properly at all. Softlavender (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the careful analysis. As mentioned before, I'll be happy to conform the page to the community's wishes. Unfortunately Iridescent's kind gesture in restoring a/o June 14 doesn't quite work, since other material was added/changed in the interim unrelated to the discussion here. For example (no kidding) because of a renaming of files over at Commons, the June 14 version's reference to File:Hooker, which used to invoke the moving devotional image File:Hooker's_Company_reach_the_Connecticut.jpg (and actually did so, on June 14), now points to the image seen at File:Hooker.jpg, causing the latter to be the one now displayed by the June 14 version, and thereby lending unintentional if not entirely unwelcome amusement. E Eng 23:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Breaching AE protocol by commenting outside my section, but for ease of reading... Unfortunately, if one accepts that the Trump section is libelous, than the intervening revisions can't be restored because they'll include the offending content. Provided you're happy to have me post it even though it breaks attribution, I can just manually paste the content of the page as of this morning, minus that section, over the existing page. ‑ Iridescent 23:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just to nudge in here on a hop and a dash, and excuse my throwing-in of the towel, but the image of the young lady with the title "Hooker" may, in retrospect, be as much of a BLP violation as anything on EEng's page, and probably should be renamed, like, right now, before she's solicited on the street by well meaning Wikipedians. Randy Kryn 00:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by K.e.coffman

Not sure if non-admins are supposed to comment, but the deletion seems silly. It's a humor page & most of these things have been reported in the press anyway. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "a chip off the old pussy" -- hasn't Trump himself caused such terminology to be ever present during the election season? Can't see the context for other statements as the page has been deleted. If the OP's concern was these three statements this could have been discussed with the page creator, vs unilaterally blanking the page or starting an AE case? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:23, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iazyges

Frankly I don't know EEng very well, but his userpage sort of falls into the "All kinds of humor", his userpage is possibly unique in that it pisses you off, makes you laugh, and shocked, sometimes all at once. No crimes I can see here, but perhaps a bit of a recommendation on his terminology for the Trump family. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You've perfectly summarized the vibe I'm going for. E Eng 00:25, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning EEng

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm having a really, really hard time seeing BLP violations here. It's userspace, not the encyclopedia, and anyone reading that page and not understanding that its content is not meant seriously...well, I wouldn't know what to do for them anyway. Yes, BLP applies to userspace, but just like libel, BLP violations are only dangerous if presented in a way that someone might actually believe them to be true. I think deletion of the entire page was excessive, and if there was some part that was particularly concerning, that could've been better addressed by talking it over with EEng and, if necessary, asking the community for input. I don't much go for farting around in userspace myself, but if others want to, it's generally harmless. Indeed, things like that might help editor retention; everyone's got to blow off a bit of steam every so often. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 23:21, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This looks like WP:CRYBLP to me. Trump is a divisive figure and nothing in the deleted revisions shows anything beyond reasonable expression of opinion. If Wordsmith thinks it violates WP:NOTFORUM (a not indefensibel view) then WP:MFD is second door on the left. This is not, I think, an AE matter in respect of American Politics or anything else. Guy (Help!) 23:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One of the questions prominently raised by the Gamaliel arbitration case earlier this year, but not resolved by that case (perhaps because it is a policy matter), is whether a BLP violation exists where, outside mainspace, (1) statements are made about a prominent living person that would be defamatory if taken literally, but (2) the intent is satirical and no reasonable reader would take them literally. Perhaps a further consideration might be if (3) the statements are unusually graphic, or indelicate, or some would say crass. There are good-faith arguments on both sides of this question, and perhaps the (über-serious) discussion of April Fools jokes that took place earlier this year could have discussed the broader question. (My own passing comment at the time was, "non-mainspace humor has its place in Wikipedia, as part of the friendly comeraderie and shared experience of editing that sustains the community—but when an attempt at humor causes widespread dissension and unhappiness among one's colleagues and becomes a distraction, the humorist should reconsider whether it is serving its purpose, whether it is or recently was April 1 or any other day. This is not a call for self-censorship per se, but for common sense.") Regarding today's developments, I am actually pleased to see a situation in which administrators and editors are acting out of principle and with good faith on all sides. A compromise seems to be working out, under which the userpage is being restored without the most disputatious of the material, and I'd be happy to see this matter resolved, without further action against anyone, on that basis. (Cross-posting this to AN also.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:39, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 1,018: / Line 1,018: @@
 ::<small>Breaching AE protocol by commenting outside my section, but for ease of reading...</small> Unfortunately, ''if'' one accepts that the Trump section is libelous, than the intervening revisions can't be restored because they'll include the offending content. Provided you're happy to have me post it even though it breaks attribution, I can just manually paste the content of the page as of this morning, minus that section, over the existing page.&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 23:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
+:Just to nudge in here on a hop and a dash, and excuse my throwing-in of the towel, but the image of the young lady with the title "Hooker" may, in retrospect, be as much of a BLP violation as anything on EEng's page, and probably should be renamed, like, right now, before she's solicited on the street by well meaning Wikipedians. [[user:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] 00:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 ====Statement by K.e.coffman====

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