Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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{{hat|There's no consensus that any sanctions should apply against EEng. While there is also not a consensus on whether the initial deletion was appropriate, the matter was later resolved through discussion, so it's rather moot at this point. No further action has been suggested or seems to be needed. There may be an indication that a wider community discussion is needed on what's acceptable in terms of "joke" and satire pages, but that's well beyond the scope of AE. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 06:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC) }} |
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<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br>Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
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*I don't think the page was an appropriate G10 candidate and nominating it for MfD would have been a better course of action. However having this on a userpage was not a good idea and I think it would have been deleted if sent to MfD. I don't see any need for sanctions at this time and I suggest that the current situation is a satisfactory resolution. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 15:26, 17 November 2016 (UTC) |
*I don't think the page was an appropriate G10 candidate and nominating it for MfD would have been a better course of action. However having this on a userpage was not a good idea and I think it would have been deleted if sent to MfD. I don't see any need for sanctions at this time and I suggest that the current situation is a satisfactory resolution. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 15:26, 17 November 2016 (UTC) |
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* I think we're all done here, aren't we? There's clearly no consensus to sanction EEng, which I quite agree with, and he's already agreed not to restore the contentious sections. I think everyone's got better things to do. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 23:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC) |
* I think we're all done here, aren't we? There's clearly no consensus to sanction EEng, which I quite agree with, and he's already agreed not to restore the contentious sections. I think everyone's got better things to do. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 23:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 06:25, 18 November 2016
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
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SageRad
On hold until 26 November 2016, to run concurrently with a voluntary wikibreak by SageRad. Bishonen | talk 08:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC). | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SageRad
SageRad is on a campaign against skepticism and for giving more credence to altmed, and this WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, civil as it may be, has been consistently disruptive on fringey medical and CAM topics like fad diets. The key issues are BLUDGEONing discussion with long soapbox-y rants against "skepticism" and for "Truth " -- a consistent behavior of using talk pages as forums, talking about "meta-issues", etc, instead of focused discussion on crafting content based on sources per policy and guidelines. He also misrepresents sources in the course of his arguments. In all of that, he fails to yield to consensus, and accuses other editors of lacking "integrity". His presence on these topics is just a tremendous time sink.
He has continued that campaign in WP space:
What spurs this filing, is that SageRad has continued this campaign -- really WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior -- against the perceived skeptic takeover, in article space this fall.
If you look at SageRad's contribs, this anti-skeptic pro-altmed editing is pretty much all they do here (with the exception of some Race & Intelligence work and some scattered editing on basic biology). In all these cases he is making difficult editing situations worse by adding his meta-issue to whatever the local issues are. Am suggesting a TBAN from anything related to health, as it is articles about health/alt med where he has mostly brought his SOAPBOXing and disruptive, time-wasting behavior. I would suggest alt med more narrowly but I don't want to get into endless border disputes. Jytdog (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SageRadStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SageRadWow. I think a few specific editors have it out for me and are making mountains out of molehills because they have it out for me. I do my best to follow sources and make good edits. On Jimbo's page, i speak to patterns i see within Wikipedia. Big deal. I use forums for discussion as they're intended. Big deal. Ironically, i've been having issues with Jytdog, the very editor who brought this here, for the whole time i've been on Wikipedia. Most recently, we've been at loggerheads on the Misophonia article. I don't think i have any other atypical conditions, but i have suffered from misophonia all my life, and only recently learned that others have the very same specific condition. And so i was learning more from MEDRS sources, and made few edits there too. And now that article seems to have a pretty serious WP:OWNership problem with this editor. Anyway, i just filed a request at the NPOV noticeboard for other editors to help out with that article, providing help with neutrality. And then i saw the notice about this AE case, and i just have to say Wow i'm pretty incredulous. Didn't even read the long diatribe by Jytdog. I'm honest, forthright, and speak what i see. In editing articles i've improved greatly since i began, and i think i understand the policies well. I edit according to policies. I speak honestly. I want good article -- nothing more. I want good articles that follow the best sources. Other people have issues that i speak to problems in Wikipedia. Are you going to shoot me for speaking? If so then it's on your hands. SageRad (talk) 11:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC) I'm pretty busy, have a child, and working. Last thing i want is drama. This is ridiculous. To anyone who sees Jytdog's lengthy diatribe, i ask you to simply choose any one aspect, and look at it in depth. Don't be fooled by the size of the complaint. See if it really holds up under a microscope. I'm not perfect, but i edit with integrity and following the policies of Wikipedia. Wikipedia has problems, but it's not me. SageRad (talk) 11:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC) Tiny note. So i saw Jytdog said "That discussion was moved to WT:FRINGE where he has written stuff like this" with a link here. Note that this contained typos and missing words and you should actually read this diff -- Jytdog, will you change that in your long long thing about me please? Wouldn't want to deceive a reader, would we? The difference in the text is huge in light of this case, and it's obvious i revised that immediately. SageRad (talk) 11:50, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
By the way, contrary to what Jytdog said, i do have access to most journal articles through my past university lab affiliation. Lastly, i admit i may have spoken too much about patterns within Wikipedia, or attributing motives to other editors, which should not use space on talk pages. Sometimes it's a response to the mirror image accusations made about me. In many ways, i appreciate Jytdog's integrity. In some ways, he really does own up to some sorts of mistakes and make corrections. He really does want to make the encyclopedia the best it can be, i believe, but perhaps needs to consider some things more carefully from time to time and not be so reactive. Sorry if that's too much critique to speak of another editor. I mean it with good will. SageRad (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Oh look.......... all the dozen or so enemies are out making horribly distorted and untrue nd biased and polemic statements against me. This is onerous and there ought to be a boomerang instead of me being on the defense. Jytdog needs to be reigned in. Everything he says about me is actually showing HIM to be on a "right great wrongs" bender, with a mission to eradicate people who disagree with him on some axes. I don't even have time for this shit. SageRad (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Jytdog has mounted an ideological crusade, and the people who are in continuous agreement with this come out to cheer "Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!" and others actually allow this. Get the hypocrisy, the irony:
If you let this happen, you have blood on your hands. See what's happening here. Speaking these things is not a crime! The shooting of people for speaking these things is a crime. Most of y'all who've come out of the woodword (predictably) are in the same camp -- demonstrably through your actions, words, and edits -- doing the very thing you're accusing me of merely speaking about. This place is damned. This place is gone. This place is captured by an ideological crew. I hold strong and true to everything i've said through my time here. It's more instructive who's come out to make statements against me, than the content of those statements. You can see who hates my presence here because they hate the things i say. That is instructive. Think for yourself, observers. Kill me if you must but i will not pander or lie.
Bishonen -- i just saw your comment in which you pinged me. I would like to request a month to get a defense together then. I would be able to process and not feel in jeopardy of a hammer coming down at any moment. The process has felt uncontrollable so far, with the sheer volume of Jytdog's long statement in which i'm described as a demon at all turns. It's far above the 500 word traditional word limit and it's too demonizing to make a simple statement about. It's too deep of a problem and needs some serious addressing. Another thing i would ask is to be able to erase the current statement and make a coherent new one. I've been in a panic mode of sorts and other things in life have been too demanding, and as a result i've written off the cuff. I've also been in shocked traumatic response to the half dozen people who've been in bad conflict with me for a long time all coming out of the woodwork to make horrible statements about me. Wow talk about a jury of one's enemies. SageRad (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Good luck with that. Unfortunately the effect is disgusting upon this repository supposedly of the world's knowledge which pretends to be independent and open-source but is actually controlled in this blatant way, though not obvious to those who have not been through the wringer like i have. So, good job! You've got a mouthpiece that appears to be neutral but is actually captured! I think someone is pleased with this establishment status quo. And the irony is my saying this will be ground for my destruction as a voice in the world of Wikipedia. Well, give me liberty of give me death. Guess you're choosing to give me death.
Here's the thing. I do see patterns here. I see editing patterns. Who doesn't? Is it wrong to speak of them? If it's wrong then Jytdog's entire screed is wrong. If it's not wrong, then it's okay. So why the double standard? Why's it alright for Jytdog at Talk:Misophonia to accuse others of advocacy editing, whereas to say that there are problematic patterns in his or others' editing is anathema? Why is it wrong to point out the very obvious "Skeptic" memes and sources that are populating Wikipedia so ubiquitously? Why's it wrong to point out that there is indeed a project to send people to Wikipedia to edit with this directive, in fact, as documented by external sources? Why is it defined as a complete and total capital offense to speak of things in one direction, and yet the mirror image is completely sanctioned, and even praised and worshipped? Seems there is a power structure with a particular bent here. I am not "bludgeoning" -- i've spoken the same amount as others here in some public forum locations -- like Jimbo's page, and like the talk page on the "fringe" guideline. Those were places where this discussion is sanctioned --- so why is it seen as "evidence" of my "wrongdoing" when Jytdog presents these things here? And yeah -- the article on Dr Michael Greger -- i did indeed question the use of the word "skeptic" as a title for a person. So? That's good critique of the article. It's a real point that i can legally and rightfully bring up. Why is that presented as if it's a crime? Jeez.... does anyone see the craziness of this AE case? This is like The Trial. My crime? Thinking about things and speaking. Yes, it is like Stalin's Party. There are unspeakable things. You must not say them or you get taken here, and pilloried. Yes, it is like McCarthyism. Saying this is not wrong. You don't have to agree. But why is saying that a punishable offense? I'll tell you why. It's a thoughtcrime. You should think on that. Why is something a thoughtcrime here in Wikipedia? Perhaps because there is a power issue at play. Anyway, i edit according to policies. You will see within the last few months, any edit i have made to an article is 9 times out of 10 a good edit with good sources. I'm not pushing anything into articles. I'm not pushing an agenda other than to make good articles following the sources. Please, please, go to the misophonia article and the Talk:Misophonia talk page and see for yourselves. Please, see whether i am breaking any rules in a bad way, or simply trying to improve the article. With that, i will take a one month wiki-break. I need my time for other things and have too much to do to take part in a trial of this kind, and have little expectation of justice prevailing anyway. Sage Statement by JzGSageRad has taken it upon himself to be arbiter of "integrity" on Wikipedia. The recent discussions on Jimbotalk showed that Sage rejects conflicting opinion as invalid, and considers that intergrity is measured by consonance with his ideology. On his user page he links to a website promoting an "ethical skeptic" agenda, which promotes Brian Martin (conspiracy theorist and supervisor of Judith Wilyman's substandard and anti-vaccine PhD) and the website where Rupert Sheldrake, Dean Radin and others rant against pesky science for not accepting their beliefs. He has adopted the rhetoric of Rome Viharo, who was banned for sockpuppetry while promoting Sheldrake and woo-meister Deepak Chopra (where he also had a COI, IIRC). Sage has used the name of Viharo's website, Wikipedia, we have a problem, as the title of at least one o his threads: [1]. One could put this down to the aftermath of ARBGMO, but long before that he was inserting accusations of censorship against David Gorski based on Gorski's banning him from commenting for trolling. The skeptic community is generally skeptical about anti-GMO rhetoric, and this seems to have set Sage against organised skepticism pretty much from the outset. All this would be fine if Sage were capable of understanding the difference between his opinion and objective fact. He consistently demonstrates that he is not. Sage is intelligent and articulate, but he lacks the ability to accept that any conclusion differing from his own might be grounded in truth. The diffs above clearly show this. The biggest problem is that any topic ban would have to include all areas subject to skeptical activism, and I don't honestly think he edits anything much else. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TryptofishI don't have anything particularly global to add, although I agree with Bishonen's concern that there is a genuine time-sink going on. Some of this may be wits-end exasperation on the part of good-faith editors, but some of it is also a clash between editors who just cannot stand one another. See also: User talk:SageRad#Talk:Misophonia. It's not as simple as white-hats and black-hats. Instead of editors getting sucked into tl;dr arguments where nobody persuades anyone else, have content RfCs been adequately explored as a way of moving past logjams? (Example RfC question: "Below are some sources that say that misphonia is a genuine disorder, and some sources that say that it is not. Taking the sources together, should this page present it as a genuine disorder?") I've been trying to think of a possible DS restriction on SageRad that might be practical to design. Perhaps a word limit for talk page comments about AltMed pages? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Note: I IAR put back (collapsed) the version of Sage's statement that he had reverted, and I think that it is a better statement than his original one. @Sage: you are permitted to add to your original statement, so you can always add new stuff (well, there's a word limit that is not being followed at the moment) as long as you don't delete the old stuff; you can also strike through anything you wrote. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Kingofaces43I've been seeing problems with SageRad continue to brew on my watchlist after their GMO sanctions. Just in the context of their previous sanctions from GMOs, part of the reasoning why they were topic banned was the exact same behavior we're still seeing here. When people start to complain about how a topic is being antagonized by SageRad's continued soapboxing, they're often met with SageRad's "What, who me?" responses when told to knock it off just like we are seeing in their response to this AE. Basically, disruption in fringe and health topics followed by playing the victim when they're behavior on article pages is called out. Add in the obvious battleground behavior, and we're back to where we were with SageRad before the GMO ArbCom case. That's especially apparent with their "othering" (i.e., "bullies") of editors that try to curtail the disruption SageRad causes in topics where they engage in advocacy or soapboxing about their personal ideals. It's becoming apparent SageRad just won't listen even after their sanctions. Same behavior as GMOs, just different topics now. At the end of the day, I don't have strong convictions about specific action against SageRad since I don't have to deal with them in my topic areas anymore (mainspace at least), but it's apparent they just moved their behavior issues outside their topic ban. I do feel for editors that still end up putting up with this behavior pretty regularly though. Here area a few ideas for sanctions to impose on SageRad that should at least stop the disruption and maybe turn them around: 1. One-way interaction ban when dealing with Jytdog. I don't have super strong support for this as it's really just a band-aid, but the continued battleground behavior is obvious while Jytdog has been acting at least relatively reasonable (though obviously frustrated) in the face of this string of continued behavior. I'm usually open to less complicated two-way bans, but I think we can agree SageRad's behavior is the core issue here to work on first. 2. Expanding topic bans as JzG mentioned. Probably the most concrete topic ban would be a broadly construed ban on any topic related to health (including environmental contamination for clarity). A topic ban on any WP:FRINGE topic could be a secondary consideration, but that's harder to define for avoiding wikilawyering. Word limits might have been a consideration back when SageRad was newer to Wikipedia, but the issue here seems to be they just can't let go in these topics. 3. Long-term block. SageRad has used tons of rope already still showing behavior (regardless of what they actually say) that they are not WP:HERE and are instead using Wikipedia more for soapboxing and hyperbole. Maybe that can change if they are handed a topic ban that gets them out of this activism mindset and into topics where they can act like a normal editor. I think we have to acknowledge though that if this all continues, the WP:ROPE is going leading to this last option. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SkyringAfter a tangential mention in discussion below, a tangential comment. SageRad has his own strong views, is well-informed, intelligent, and productive. There's a place for him here. But when he encounters opposition, rather than discuss the points of opposition in the context on improving the article(s), he takes it personal and tries to convert other editors to his views, which he considers to be the rational factual objective plain truth, and everybody else is a deluded fool or a tool of big business or something, and ultimately Wikipedia is fatally flawed because of this evil and that evil. Well, it's not. It works, it's a valuable reference, it's an internet marvel. SageRad should get offa his soapbox, work with those who have contrary opinions, and for the love of ghod, stop filling pages with long rambling rants! SageRad, we love you, we want you, it's just your behaviour needs a bit of a tweak. Okay? --Pete (talk) 06:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by AlexbrnAs an editor who has had a role in the current Chemophobia article I was surprised to see, on 20 October, postings by SageRad on both the article's Talk page and at WP:FT/N report a "POV issue" because "This article presents 'chemophobia' as if it's a psychological phenomenon ..." On re-reading the article I saw (as did a number of other editors) that this is simply not the case: the article says precisely the opposite. This has been pointed out but since then no retraction, explanation or further comment has been made. On top of SageRad's editing history this looks far from being constructive activity. What is going on? Because of SageRad's problematic stance towards skepticism I don't think a TBAN on health content is quite right - a TBAN needs to cover (probably in addition) any topic covered by the WP:FRINGE guidance - broadly construed - though I fear this will not succeed because SageRad seems to have a novel view of what is, and is not, fringe that is out-of-sync with the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by OID@Wordsmith, discretionary sanctions are authorised for a number of areas SageRad has been problematic in. So realistically you could apply any sanction you wanted (provided you felt it had merit). The real issue is that SageRad is not topic-bound in his disruption. He has an anti-skeptic agenda which manifests in disruptive editing wherever skepticism is evident. He is not pro-fringe as it was, just anti-evidence-based science. His editing MO is to show up at an article, declare bias, argue with people until he finally gets they dont agree with him, then rants about how everything is unfair. The problem is fringe and skepticism cover a huge range of topics. From pseudoscience, lifestyle, history, medical etc. Normally a targetted topic ban would suffice, but to limit SageRad's disruption would require a 0/1 revert restriction AND some sort of enforced character limit on discussions. And even *then* that would really only just keep disruption to a minimum, it wouldnt prevent anything as SageRad has a worldview that is incompatible with how Wikipedia populates article content. Alexbrn has laid out the most recent example. Jzg and a couple of others say SageRad is clearly intelligent etc, but I disagree. SageRad has repeatedly failed to grasp basic wikipedia concepts & policies, and as Alexbrn's example shows above, clearly has an issue in reading comprehension. There is a CIR issue here. This may be because he skim-reads and fails to grasp what is actually said - Jytdog has listed a number of examples where SageRad cherry-picks/looks at brief abstracts/summaries instead of reading and understanding what material actually says. But this disruption is not limited to Wikipedia, this is just his latest venue for pushing his POV/Agenda. He came here (and was subsequently sanctioned) after getting into conflict with Gorski. He previously linked to his rants/comments offsite - and even a basic internet search shows his attack-dog mentality when criticised (just in case anyone thinks to accuse me of outing, SageRad has previously linked to his offsite comments himself, then deleted them when it was pointed out they showed his bias). If you are unable to actually implement a workable sanction, this will need to go to ANI or Arbcom for a site ban discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Plea by DrChrissyI am not here to comment on the merits or otherwise of this case, rather, I am here to make observations on Sage's behaviour and a plea for a moritorium. Sage's most recent behaviour on this noticeboard and at other places is very uncharacteristic for him. He is making unfocussed edits and flailing around in the multiple threads regarding his behaviour. He has even resorted to swearing which I don't think I have ever seen him do before. His baby is a new baby, I think only 6 weeks old or so, and I think is his first. To make this brief, I believe Sage may be experiencing some sort of melt-down. A moritorium would show compassion and allow Sage to either calm down and/or make decisions in a more rational way which Arbcom would be more able to deal with. DrChrissy (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Robert McClenonUnfortunately, I see two problems here. The first has to do with the subject editor, User:SageRad, who has been editing aggressively since May 2015 with a strong point of view on medical and agricultural topics. The second has to do with the history between the subject editor and the filing editor, User:Jytdog. Jytdog has long been editing aggressively in accordance with Wikipedia policy to try to ensure that medical and scientific articles follow Wikipedia medical reliable source guidelines. Jytdog is almost always right with regard to policy, and has made enemies in Wikipedia, and SageRad is one of them, and SageRad has been aggressively attacking Jytdog since he began editing Wikipedia in May 2015. (SageRad made a few scattered edits before then.) Jytdog is absolutely correct in writing: Actually, one more thing. The history between SageRad and me does go back to his very first edits here. Jytdog is completely correct in writing: I don't seek SageRad out; he keeps showing up on topics I edit and behaving this way. I first became familiar with SageRad when he showed up at the dispute resolution noticeboard hounding Jytdog and claiming mistakenly to be a DRN volunteer. SageRad has been going after Jytdog at least since June 2015. It is impossible to reason with SageRad to advise him that his behavior is disruptive. SageRad has, since May 2015, seen all efforts to advise him to modify his behavior as "McCarthyism" and "bullying". SageRad was topic-banned by the ArbCom from the topic area of genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals. (In case anyone argues that there was a kangaroo court proceeding, he wasn’t just banned by one kangaroo under discretionary sanctions. He was banned by the community-elected panel of kangaroos, except that we are not kangaroos because we are great apes.) He has recently been blocked twice, first for five days, then for one month. It isn’t clear why SageRad is so determined to change Wikipedia when he has apparently decided that Wikipedia is such an ugly corrupt place, but that is SageRad. If any editor other than Jytdog had been the one filing this request, I would suggest that SageRad be Site-Banned. As it is, Jytdog is the wrong editor to be filing this request, because Jytdog is right, but it looks too much like (almost justified) revenge. I suggest that SageRad be blocked for another month, and that Jytdog be asked to let other editors deal with SageRad after he is unblocked this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by CapeoI was trying to avoid commenting here because I've butted heads enough with Sage that it just feels like piling on. That said, what the admins here are seeing as a meltdown is actually pretty par for the course. Outbursts claiming McCarthyism (such as here [8] against Guy or here [9] against... everyone I guess) are fairly normal with Sage, though the Stalinism claim is a new one to me. This has been an ongoing issue when it comes to such hyperbolic claims against other users or WP in general. Capeo (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Just a further note to admins, it seems unlikely SageRad will accept a voluntary editing restriction after saying they wouldn't accept an enforced one. I highly doubt it will work and will just serve to incite more drama. Perhaps I'm wrong, and SageRad will be fine with it, but I don't think you're going to get the response you're hoping for. Capeo (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Because SageRad keeps insisting that folks look at the Misophonia talk page I did. As well as the article, its history, its sources and the current research. The article was a mess earlier in the year with extraordinary levels of advocate editing. To the degree that editors were adding things to the article, openly in edit summaries no less, to favor particular researchers. The majority of editors on the talk page over the last couple years I looked at also say they have Misophonia. It was brought back to some semblance of balance by Jytdog and others back in February. It quickly spiraled back to being a mess in the interceding months. Looking at the current research "a proposed condition" is exactly the proper way to characterize Misophonia according to the preponderance of RS. There is no diagnostic criteria for it. It's not listed in any diagnostic text. It's near invariably associated with other conditions such as OCD (primarily), anxiety disorders, Autism spectrum or Tourette's Syndrome. SageRad's selective use of a sentence from the Cavanna abstract is not engaging with the actual sources or even the abstract in question, or even Cavanna's actual paper. Even in the abstract itself, it's admitted "At the present stage, competing paradigms see misophonia as a physiological state potentially inducible in any subject, an idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders), or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder." Cavanna and the one study he cites that agrees with him (that aren't his own) is the only person I can find that presently suggests it might be a primary condition. Even then he admits, in regard to the current definition of Misophonia, "This definition challenges the subsequently proposed views that misophonia is a discrete/idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders)8 or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder, at least in a proportion of cases.4 If confirmed by future systematic studies in large populations, the presence of high rates of comorbidity would go against the argument that misophonia should be labeled as a primary diagnosis. In fact, it would suggest that it is a symptom manifestation of other underlying or comorbid diagnoses and should more appropriately be labeled as a symptom, rather than as a stand-alone diagnosis. Either way, the addition of misophonia to nosographic classification systems of psychiatric disorders, such as the DSM, would require careful consideration." 8 is the study I mentioned. 4 is a short paper by Cavanna. Long story short: Jytdog's wording is correct and it appears SageRad is ignoring the caveats the source in question, which he provided, which isn't even close to the totality of sources in question. Capeo (talk) 01:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by MjolnirPantsI'm not going to post my usual, fifteen paragraph explanation of every nuance of my own thoughts about this. I'm just going to say two things.
Statement by (Roxy the dog)I'm going to tender for the WP:ROPE supply contract with wikipedia. Must be racing up in value. -Roxy the dog™ bark 08:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning SageRad
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Afterwriting
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Afterwriting
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- RexxS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Afterwriting (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions
- Specifically:
Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all
articlespages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
-
- 30 October 2016 Reverts CFCF, removing "pseudoscience" from opening sentence.
- 8 November 2016, 16:28 Removes "pseudoscience" from opening sentence again.
- 8 November 2016, 16:43 Edit wars to once again remove "pseudoscience" from opening sentence.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
-
- 3 October 2015 Blocked for edit-warring
- 24 June 2010 Blocked for edit-warring
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
-
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, also see the system log linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The Chiropractic article is covered by discretionary sanctions in the field of pseudoscience. The alert can be found at the top of the talk page Talk:Chiropractic, linking to WP:ARBPS.
The Chiropractic article is currently under a concerted attack to remove the appellation "pseudoscience" from the opening sentence, which reads "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine... ". Afterwriting is now edit-warring to force the removal of the term. There is no doubt that the underlying theory that chiropractic bases itself on, "vertebral subluxations" is considered pseudoscience by mainstream scientific opinion: [14], [15], [16], [17] and our Arbitration Committee has previously endorsed discretionary sanctions against editors on the chiropractic article - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience #2009.
Afterwriting has a history of attempting to force his preferred version by editwarring (see previous blocks and his present talk page), and is now doing this again in an attempt to whitewash Chiropractic contrary to mainstream scientific and medical opinion.
I request that Afterwriting be topic-banned from chiropractic and related pages to prevent further disruption and edit-warring. --RexxS (talk) 17:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Afterwriting
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Afterwriting
I am very pleased that common sense has prevailed in this matter. This report had no substantial merit to it to begin with and, frankly, I had no need to defend myself against such accusations. It was an exercise in not letting a good story get in the way of the facts. As can can readily be checked, at no point in any of this "edit war" did I ever argue that mention of "pseudoscience" should not appear in the introduction or elsewhere in the article. In fact I agree that it should appear in an appropriate place and in an appropriate way. All I did was revert the addition of the term as the first description in the article, even though it already appeared elsewhere in the lead, without any initial attempt to seek consensus. That was entirely justifiable in terms of a number of editing policies. The editor responsible for constantly and aggressively adding this term as the first description in alternative medicine articles is the one who bears more responsible for creating any edit wars with myself and other editors. Afterwriting (talk) 06:13, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by LeadSongDog
There appears to be a troubling pattern here, edit warring with CFCF on multiple altmed articles and engaging in personal attacks: [18][19][20][21][22] (Full disclosure: I often edit altmed pages and support WP's "bias" towards basing statements on the best-quality evidence available.)LeadSongDog come howl! 19:32, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by WhatamIdoing
It looks like CFCF WP:BOLDly added the word pseudoscience to the first/definition sentence of Chiropractic (so that it read "Chiropractic is a form of pseudoscience and alternative medicine...") about three weeks ago. That particular instance of the word pseudoscience has been removed or moved to a different paragraph in the lead by multiple editors several times in the intervening weeks (and also re-added repeatedly by CFCF and other proponents).
There is now an active discussion on the talk page about whether or not pseudoscience should be the sixth word in the article, although it may be generating more heat than light. At the moment, the terms pseudoscience and pseudomedicine appear three times in the lead and three more times in the body of the article, but (since CFCF self-reverted earlier today) it is not currently in the first sentence itself.
In terms of this AE request, I would not fault Afterwriting for removing a heavily disupted word multiple times than I would fault CFCF for re-adding it multiple times – or any of the other editors who have edited that part of the article recently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Afterwriting
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- It's reasonable to see a general Wikipedia consensus that Chiropractic should be classified under pseudoscience. But attempts to stuff 'pseudoscience' into the opening sentence of the lead might appear to be provocative and likely to result in future edit wars. Even without User:CFCF's addition of pseudoscience to the opening sentence, we still have pseudoscience mentioned at the end of the first paragraph. We should expect some level of ongoing editing of the lead, but people who want to fine-tune the placement of 'pseudoscience' in the opening paragraph would normally be expected to defer to talk-page consensus. So to sanction Afterwriting for his edits and say nothing about people on the other side could appear unbalanced. (They didn't wait for a talk page consensus either). Unless there is a suggestion to apply page-level sanctions (e.g. putting a general 1RR on Chiropractic) I'd favor closing this request with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah I agree with EdJohnston. I do think that Afterwriting is guilty of edit warring, at least in spirit, and should not have reverted RexxS--for now, let's wait and see what the talk page discussion delivers, and let this be a stern reminder to Afterwriting that they need to tread much, much more carefully. Their second revert on 8 November was, as far as I'm concerned, blockable. Drmies (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DaltonCastle
Appeal declined, though the AE block has expired. EdJohnston (talk) 01:28, 13 November 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statement by DaltonCastle"This was a little harsh. I received no warning. My edits were not contentious. I am curious why the accuser never contacted me at all. This seems soundly unfair. As a token of goodwill I will stay off the page if you lift this block." Copied from the user's talk page per request. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 02:18, 9 November 2016 (UTC)" Statement by Ks0stmOriginal change, revert 1, revert 2, revert 3. User had been alerted before. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 02:23, 9 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by MrXDaltonCastle re-inserted the POV tag over the objections of three other editors, twice after being warned here. That makes a total of three reverts on an article restricted to one revert. The block was appropriate and necessary. - MrX 02:44, 9 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by MelanieNI was just on my way to ask for attention to this violation by Dalton Castle, when I saw that he had already been blocked. Dalton Castle repeatedly adding a NPOV tag to the Donald Trump presidential campaign article, despite consensus against it on the talk page. He added it three times in the past 24 hours. [23] [24] [25] He did not start a talk page discussion or identify the specific NPOV violations he was alleging. When someone else started a discussion at the talk page he was dogmatic: "And we keep the tag up until we conclude it comes down." He not only violated the rules, but he still doesn't acknowledge that he did. --MelanieN (talk) 03:43, 9 November 2016 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by DaltonCastle
Result of the appeal by DaltonCastle
|
bloodofox
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning bloodofox
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- bloodofox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBAPDS :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 11/10 Insults, personal attacks. Accusing other editors of "shilling" (i.e. accusing other editors that they're editing Wikipedia for money)
- 11/10 Insults, personal attacks
- 11/10 Personal attacks, discussing editors not content
- 11/9 Attacking and accusing other editors, although, I guess, in general terms, WP:SOAPBOXing.
- 11/9 Restoring another users' actual trolling on the Hillary Clinton page [26], although to be fair he was also restoring his own comment. BTW, can someone take a look at that other user?
- 10/24 Insults and personal attacks
- 10/24 along with [27] and [28] - basically accuses me, and other editors, of working for money to edit Wikipedia on behalf of Hillary Clinton. Now, he does it in a "sarcastic" tone which I guess would allow them some "deniability" when called on it, but the accusation is pretty clear. When I asked him if that was indeed the accusation he was making, bloodofox's response was basically "well, you'd never admit to it anyway"
- 9/22 Attacks on other editors rather than discussing content
- 8/25 Refusal to discuss or work towards consensus because other editors are "extensions of the Clinton campaign"
- 8/29 Makes the accusations that other editors are working for the Clinton campaign explicit. Attacks others. Complete and total failure to assume good faith. I'm sorry but discussing with someone who is so obsessed with attacking others is simply impossible.
- 8/29 Insults, ridiculous accusations that other editors work "for the Clinton campaign". Language about "ground zero" clearly indicates a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality.
- 8/16 Insulting other editors and calling them trolls.
- 8/15 Insulting other editors and calling them trolls. Threats to edit war on the article to get their way. WP:BATTLEGROUND
- 8/15 Aspersions and personal attacks
- 8/15 Calling other editors comments in discussion "trolling" without evidence
- 8/15 More insults and accusations of trolling
- 8/14 More personal attacks and baseless accusations of bias
- 8/14 Accusations that other editors on Wikipedia are working for "the Clinton campaign"
- 8/14 Aspersions and more personal attacks, focus on discussing (and attacking) fellow editors rather than discussing content
- 8/13 Baseless accusations against other editors
- 7/8 Old, but shows a long running pattern of using personal attacks and making WP:ASPERSIONS that has been going on for awhile
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- [29] (note the edit summary)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Honestly I should've filed this long time ago, back in August when this started. But I try to be tolerant of incivility and personal attacks up until the point when these make discussion impossible. Give users another chance etc. But that's the point we've reached here. I have no idea of the quality/nature of bloodofox's contributions in other topic areas, but I honestly have not seen them make a single productive contribution to a discussion in American Politics. bloodofox IMMEDIATELY assumes that anyone who disagrees with them is a "paid shill", that they are working for the Clinton campaign (or were, I guess, looks like no more fat pay checks for me. Sad.) that they are troll, that they work for "Correct a Record" (which is silly, seeing as how that is/was just a website) etc. When bloodofox arrives in a discussion it basically short circuits it and makes any consensus forming process impossible. I had hoped they'd chill out after the election was over, but it appears from their recent comments that if anything it's getting worse. Those diffs from post-election November constitute something like five different insults in less than 24 hours.
And yes, I know some of these diffs are old and in and of themselves maybe they're stale - but going from August, to September, to October to today they show a very clear pattern of verbal abuse directed at other editors, a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and a simple WP:NOTHERE presence in this topic area.
An indef topic ban from AmPol should be placed, and this would allow bloodofox to continue to contribute productively in other areas (assuming their editing in those is fine, like I said, I have no idea). Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
When bloodofox says he "called out" editors for their supposed POV what he really means is that he insulted and attacked them and threw ridiculous accusations at them in order to derail talk page discussions. Yeah, that's 'calling somebody out'. Right.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
In particular comments like these "Still shilling?" and "Have some dignitiy" (my dignity is fine, thank you very much) are particularly obnoxious and insulting. These two comments alone should warrant a block in addition to whatever topic ban is imposed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
bloodofox: I was pretty explicit that there's no way for anyone to detect that anyone was working for a campaign in any capacity on Wikipedia - I think that pretty much illustrates the problem. "I can't prove it so I'm just going to accuse and attack".Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:34, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
bloodofox, wikilawyer however you like, but when you say to another editor "still shilling?" you are saying "you did shill". And when you say "you did shill" you are saying you were paid to edit Wikipedia. A person who "shills" is a "shill". So you are calling them a "shill". And this is an extremely obnoxious and serious personal attack. Especially since as you yourself admit, there's absolutely no proof of it (although, quite strangely, you appear to believe that because there is no proof of it, that makes it okay for you to make this attack on others, rather than, as would common sense suggest, the opposite).Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:18, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Can someone please explain to me why MyMoloboaccount is bringing up my supposed "Americaness" or whatever and what is this "charade" that he is referring to or how is this in any way relevant except as what appears to be an attempt to throw around more insults (though it's a peculiar choice of an insult in all honesty)? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:05, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Again, can one of the WP:AE admins please ask Moloboaccount to stop speculating outloud about my nationality/ethnicity since it's completely beside the point and is frankly none of his goddamn business? Should I start picking random editors out here and making stuff about where they're supposedly from and where they supposedly live and what their "true" nationality is? Is that kind of behavior acceptable? And please note that I have asked him several times to stop doing this as it's obviously meant to be either insulting (at least in his mind) or a form of intimidation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:28, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Since User:User:Tiptoethrutheminefield has just [30] accused me of "being a shill", do I need to file a separate report or can that be folded into this one? (Also note how it's the same three or four users showing up to every single request in this topic area = Athenan, Tiptoethroughthemindfield, EtienneD, James Lambden - in particular the first three have a long history together). I'd appreciate it if some admins active on this page, like Bishonen, Dennis Brown, Drmies, Lankiveil, Guy, EdJohnston (listing those who have commented here in the recent past) would get around to looking at this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [31]
Discussion concerning USERNAME
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by bloodofox
Ah, now that the campaign is over and it clearly didn't go his way, Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) has apparently decided that it's time to take out his anger on other users who called him out during the election for his blatantly ideological and POV edits. The mysterious "other editors" he's referring to above are in fact a single other extremely ideological editor, an editor he frequently worked with during this period: scjessey (talk · contribs).
Whether it was trying to sanitize anything relating to the DNC (one such example, [32]) or simply perfume a Clinton-related article (notice that the Clinton Foundation remains essentially a puff piece), I was one of many editors who called these two out during the process. In truth, Marek spent the last few months edit-warring with those he disagreed with while using Wikipedia as a political platform (I have a self-imposed policy of 1 revert per 24 hour rule on all articles barring blatant vandalism).
Now, there's so much misinformation attached to his misleading diff annotations above that I can only say that it looks like that, with the election over, Marek has found a little more time on his hands and is using it to go after those he blames. He even resorts to claiming that I've restored vandalism rather than simply my comments and then takes the time to describe Correct the Record as "just a website", lol. Despite the annotations above, however, nobody accused Marek or his pal of working for anyone. And to correct the record I've never been a Trump supporter, BTW.
One thing that is true is that bias has been a major problem on our articles throughout this election cycle. I've called it out as I've seen it and all of my comments above are about concerns regarding bias on the article they're attached to, usually discussing referencing. Meanwhile, Marek has at times resorted to ping spamming me (as some of the diffs above reveal) and relentlessly edit-warred with any editor that came along, at times breaking 1RR on a variety of political articles (ex. [33], [34], [35]).
This is purely ideological revenge editing on the part of the Marek and, frankly, isn't worth the time I'm taking to write this out. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:17, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
—also a quick lol at the block request for telling a user to "have some dignity". :bloodofox: (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
@clpo13 (talk · contribs), please provide a diff where I've called anyone a shill. Calling someone a straight up shill versus calling someone out for shilling for a candidate isn't the same thing. You don't have to be an operative to be a biased, non-neutral and highly ideological editor peddling a party line. In fact, as the diffs above demonstrate, I was pretty explicit that there's no way for anyone to detect that anyone was working for a campaign in any capacity on Wikipedia (which is presumably why we have no policy against it to this day). :bloodofox: (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
@clpo13 (talk · contribs), I quite explicitly accused—and accuse—these editors of ideological editing and blatant promotion of their candidates on the site under the guise of neutral editing. Thats pretty straightforward. As I said in the diffs above, however, there's no way of confirming, denying, or even blocking anyone for any affiliation with a campaign at this time. I'm not exactly known for beating around the bush on Wikipedia. To be frank, if anyone deserves any sort of sanction here, it's Marek himself and for exactly the reasons I mention in the diffs above. Were they operating as if they were the Wikipedia extension of the Clinton campaign? Absolutely. Were they doing anything but, well, volunteering? No clue. As a result, I haven't accused anyone of working with a campaign. Any suggestion to the contrary is bullshit obfuscation. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:40, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs), I'm not going back and forth with you. Your edit history shows that you're a blatantly ideological edit warrior with zero concern for article neutrality, injecting pro-Clinton and pro-DNC bias into every article you've touched this election season. Along the way you've even somehow mustered the desire to attempt to edit war and whitewash articles in favor of such lovable figures as Debbie Wasserman Schultz (of course, that didn't fly). Sure, all that nastiness was ultimately for nothing but there are better ways to take out your personal frustrations than on wasting the time of others on Wikipedia.
And, gee, all this talk about concern regarding bias on these articles and the presence of the Clinton campaign. Outside of Correct the Record, there's also this interesting e-mail implying pretty strongly that the DNC has either been editing the Debbie Wasserman Schultz article (or looking to do so) since at least May of 2016. I mean, who woulda thunk it, right? :bloodofox: (talk) 20:51, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
@Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk · contribs), while I stand by all of my edits (including diffs above, regardless of Marek's dishonest—and frankly goofy—commentary) and I believe they hardly qualify as "rope", what incident are you referring to? :bloodofox: (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
@drmies (talk · contribs), with all due respect, I really don't think you're a neutral editor in this matter. As you yourself note, you and I have a long history here. The edit you're referencing is in response to a relentless editor-warrior, this guy (don't worry, he links to it from his user page). However, IMO this is a pretty straight forward, revenge-motivated vexatious complaint on the part of Marek. If anyone should be blocked from these topics, it's Marek. And I'm sure that's coming sooner or later. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
@drmies (talk · contribs), the statement was "which [was] operating as an extension of the Clinton campaign through stretches of the election" ([36]). Please correct. Did you somehow miss, for example, the Wikileaks drops on Donna Brazile giving Clinton campaign questions in advance during the primaries while working for CNN? [37], etc. One of the things that was so notable about this election was the role of the press, such as this incident. CNN did in fact work closely with the Clinton campaign throughout the election, at times operating as an extension of the campaign, as Wikileaks revealed. That's an objective reality. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
@drmies (talk · contribs), what I'm seeing here is that a.) you seem to have not been following these incidents (Brazile is only one example involving Clinton and CNN, click the link I provided for another—and I can provide plenty more, generally from Wikileaks drops showing coordination between CNN reps and the Clinton campaign, and from fully reliable sources (a nice summary)) and b.) your aggressive responses tell me that you're here to settle an old score—presumably one I've since long forgotten about. You know, I didn't figure you for that. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
@everyone—folks, I'm dealing (via Wikimedia) with a troubling threat of violence against my person on the site. Do what you will, but I'm not able to respond or defend myself at this time. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:25, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Real quick, I should probably point out Drmies's bizarre October 27 statement "Look, I've been trying to get Bloodofox blocked for yeeeears now, haha". While this post may have started as Marek's revenge fantasy, it looks like it's shaping up as a convenient way for Drmies to finally get a taste. Note also the comments in the diff made by another user looking for blood up above. Funny how these things work on Wikipedia. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
@Lankiveil (talk · contribs), while I'm admittedly curious about what you've figured to be my "POV" (I've never stated it—these diffs are about a total lack of neutrality in Marek's edits), I haven't edited any related articles since a day or so since the election ended.
Now, I personally limit my reverts to one revert per article per 24 hours, and I've also intended to avoid all things Clinton on Wikipedia in the future even before Marek's vexatious request here. And I'll be doing that regardless of the outcome here. While I would have been silent about it otherwise, I guess here I have to state that I've voluntary removed myself form the topic space. Editing Clinton and DNC-related articles simply eats up far too much of my limited Wiki-time that is best spent on other articles for topics that are far removed from the last election.
As for Marek, looking away at his ridiculous edit history on these topics isn't going to make the situation any better but, given the way the election win, chances are he might just be less active in those spaces in general. Either way, this whole thing is moot and seems to only be serving to indulge revenge fantasies at this point (i.e. like Drmies's "Look, I've been trying to get Bloodofox blocked for yeeeears now, haha"). :bloodofox: (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
I almost warned bloodofox this morning when I saw his harsh personal attack at talk:Hillary Clinton. I had no idea that there was such an ongoing pattern of disruption as evidenced in the diffs provided above. The Arbcom case findings of fact were clear that such behavior is prohibited.- MrX 16:40, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
- @SashiRolls: What the actual heck are you talking about? This page is for requesting enforcement of Arbcom remedies, not for stream of consciousness story telling.- MrX 17:22, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SashiRolls
In the Good Soldier Švejk, there is a character by the name of Marek, Volunteer Marek. According to Wikipedia, "The character of one-year volunteer Marek is to some degree a self-portrait by the author, who was himself a one-year volunteer in the 91st. For example, Marek — like Hašek — was fired from the editorship of a natural history magazine after writing articles about imaginary animals. Is appointed the battalion historian by Ságner and occupies himself with devising memorable and heroic deaths in advance for his colleagues." I can't believe Volunteer Marek is back here on AE clamoring for more heads. smh. will add more if absolutely necessary. SashiRolls (talk) 17:03, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
- sorry, forgot this is a diff culture:, here are some more diffs of 1RR violations from trusty Volunteer Marek: 18:12 24 Oct 16:18 24 Oct (Though I stayed away from Clinton most of the silly season (as you know @MrX:), I was very surprised to read the Foundation page when I got to it, which I never would have, except that well, y'all didn't like what I was working on earlier...) I'm sorry I am not a diff culture native, in my world the names you chose are important, as is how you talk about including or excluding things from a page. This is poorly reflected in diff culture. :) SashiRolls (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
- also, would like to add that words like "(cyber) shilling", "hack", "whitewash", "pinkwash", etc. have not yet been deleted from the language. In fact, shilling, in particular seems to be fighting nobly for its existence despite no longer being a legal tender coin. ^^ (ngrams: shilling, hack) SashiRolls (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- Wow. I'm amazed that Drmies can say, "Look, I've been trying to get Bloodofox blocked for yeeeears now" and then neglect to recuse himself. Wikipedia seems to have some serious concerns: people are banned indefinitely and for long periods for daring to use the word "shill" when dealing with disruptive behavior, but another user gets away with a 48-hour block after having called me a "sociopath", for protecting BLP pages from copyright infringement and the modification of the meaning of wiki-text summaries of dead links to blog posts they admit they've never read (relevant here since Volunteer Marek's participated -- tag-team style -- in trying to maintain this attack on Tulsi Gabbard, before I explained *all* of my reasons for reverting the edit). (Cf. [[38]]). This selective enforcement should be very troubling, especially from an ArbCom member and from an admin who calls herself "Cardinal Mazarin" and says her "secret goal is to collect the entire little Arbcom in Bishzilla's pocket!" [39]. Troubling. SashiRolls (talk) 10:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- also, would like to add that words like "(cyber) shilling", "hack", "whitewash", "pinkwash", etc. have not yet been deleted from the language. In fact, shilling, in particular seems to be fighting nobly for its existence despite no longer being a legal tender coin. ^^ (ngrams: shilling, hack) SashiRolls (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by clpo13
Calling anyone a shill, under any circumstances, should be met with sanctions. American politics is a bitter enough topic without unfounded accusations of paid or otherwise influenced editing. Claims of biased editing can be made without such a loaded word. clpo13(talk) 18:07, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Bloodofox: Oh well, that changes everything. So long as you don't label someone, you can safely accuse them of all sorts of things. "I didn't call them a vandal. I just said they were vandalizing articles.", etc. No matter how you word it, it's a unnecessary comment that only inflames the situation. Throwing accusations around doesn't help anything. clpo13(talk) 18:31, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by MyMoloboaccount
Plenty of the alleged proofs of bloodfox offensive remarkes actually lead to innocent statements like Hopefully you'll meet the next Wiki-gang on the block sometime soon and neutrality rather than political preference will win out. I remember VM making far more offensive comments without getting sanctions. Seems this is a case of a political spat resulting from HC's failure to win the election and VM being upset about this. Anyway can we finally drop the charade and call Volunteer Marek an American without him getting into a fit about supposed outing? The comments and edits in past couple of months make it clear that he is one. Thats all from me, I guess, people should cheer up, make Wikipedia great again and PRAISE KEK!.
- Volunteer_Marek-there is nothing insulting in being American or editing from USA. Many editors in the past have been confused by your nickname and thought you are from Poland, that is is all. As to supposed, I think your edits and comments about voting in recent US elections make it clear anyway(and since we are friends of Facebook I know that indeed it is true :P). It's no big deal but clears up confusion, and for some reason in the past you treated it as very big outing.
--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Athenean
Anyone familiar with this topic area knows full well that VM comes here with unclean hands. Volunteer Marek complaining about another user being incivil is quite the irony. VM has been pushing a strong POV in this area from day 1, with typical incivility. Just one of many examples [40] [41]. It's not hard to find such examples. Many of his talkpage contribs are laced with accusations of bad faith and condescension, designed to get under his opponents' skin as much as possible without quite crossing the line into outright name calling. In addition to incivility, he edit-wars frequently, afterwards claiming to "forget" that an article is under 1RR [42]. And just recently he agreed to a voluntary 1RR restriction to narrowly avert a topic ban [43]. Given Marek's unclean hands, the request has no merit and should be struck. Athenean (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield
Regarding the "shilling" accusation, there is no question that Volunteer Marek has been a shill in the past. His activities in the past have at certain times fitted the definition of shill - appearing to act independently but in fact acting as part of an organized group and behaving according to a predetermined plan so as to realize a particular goal. That was proven in a previous notable case. This does not make bloodofox's accusation / implication of shilling justified, but it questions the real level of offense felt by VM. I don't find VM's assertion that he felt it "obnoxious and insulting" to be particularly credible. The insults and personal attacks seem mild stuff when taken one at a time and this case looks a lot like Volunteer Marek allowing another editor to produce enough rope to hang themselves. Taken as a whole there probably is enough rope here - and little in the cited posts of bloodofox cogently address content issues. But I suspect only one side is being shown and I wonder about what content issues and disagreements produced these exchanges. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 04:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Result concerning bloodofox
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I have blocked Tiptoe for the "shill" comment, for 72 hours. It exhibits a complete lack of good faith, and suggests a kind of "you were asking for it" justification. Drmies (talk) 19:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- About the case: yeah, "shilling" is a blockable insult (as a complete violation of AGF), but I was all ready to say something like "Bloodofox is a bit heavy-handed, heat of the moment, etc" until I ran into this one (I went from the bottom up), which tells me that the editor is way too not neutral to be editing in this area. I support a topic ban from this election and all articles directly associated with it. I don't propose a more broad topic ban, of all politics since 1932 or whatever. Note: I've had some dealings with the editor, some better than others, and I've criticized them for edit warring and problems with sourcing reliably. I do not consider myself involved in respect to bloodofox, and all our dealings have been in articles that were many miles and many years removed from this area. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Bloodofox, if you claim that CNN is an "extension of the Clinton campaign" then you have already disqualified yourself from objective editing in this topic area. Drmies (talk) 03:45, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- That you wish to argue this moot point here speaks volumes: your claims are about one individual, who was in fact fired by CNN for her behavior. Extending that into a blanket statement means you lack the judgment to be neutral and separate fact from internet story. Drmies (talk) 03:59, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- You can accuse me of aggression (or ignorance) all you will; it makes no difference to me. I think the diffs speak for themselves here. Drmies (talk) 04:10, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, if you look at their edit history you see they're focused on the "Clinton side", so to speak--esp. Clinton herself, the Clinton Foundation, the Podesta emails, and Huma Abedin. One might expect them to move into the Trump area now that the election is over, perhaps, but if they become disruptive there we can, I suppose, always expand the scope; with many of these recent cases I prefer conservative topic bans. So for now I think I'm satisfied with my rough formulation of a topic ban but I am perfectly happy to have you or others tweak it or propose something broader; I am sure that a few more admins will weigh in. But we do need to have a topic ban of sorts, and a year is plenty long. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 05:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with a topic ban of User:Bloodofox under WP:ARBAP2 as proposed by User:Drmies but the scope of the ban would need to be well-defined. Do you think 'this election and all articles directly associated with it' is specific enough? What about the Trump transition – is that included? How about Trump cabinet members? If the scope can't be nailed down, what about a time-limited ban (such as one year) from all of WP:ARBAP2? EdJohnston (talk) 05:08, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not even going to consider anything from before November; if it wasn't worth reporting then it's not worth reporting now. I could potentially AGF this as a botched attempt to revert a perceived problematic edit. This still leaves a bunch of problematic battleground stuff, exactly the sort of thing that we don't want. The discussion over the precise meaning of "shilling" is a red herring; regardless of the intent it's still a personal attack. I'm seeing someone who is too dedicated to pushing a particular POV to be a useful editor in this topic area, and I don't see that anything short of removing User:Bloodofox from the topic area is going to stop the problem, although I'd welcome suggestions for solutions less drastic than that. Finally, with regards to Marek's alleged sins; I invite anyone to raise a request here if they feel they've gone further than Bloodofox. We can't action concerns that aren't raised. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:49, 17 November 2016 (UTC).
Request concerning DevilWearsBrioni (continued 1)
- Concerning a request which is now in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive202#Request concerning DevilWearsBrioni. It continues a long discussion which has been at:
- Talk:Expulsion of Cham Albanians
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive931#User:DevilWearsBrioni is very disruptive and abusing OR and SYNTH
- Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Expulsion of Cham Albanians
- Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Expulsion of Cham Albanians
- (and ref an older discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive893#Edit warring on Albanians),
- @SilentResident, Robert McClenon, Athenean, Alexikoua, Resnjari, Robert McClenon, and TransporterMan: please keep discussion as concise as possible and come to a decision as what is to happen with User:DevilWearsBrioni, and any other related matters. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:54, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Anthony Appleyard:, i have no idea. The discussion on Brioni got transferred to the archive, yet there was no outcome. Because of that mediation discussion is in hiatus too. Have no idea in this instance what will happen. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:14, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I agree with what the vast majority of the editors said, including Athenean, Robert McClenon, Iazyges, and Alexikoua, that action has to be taken against DevilWearsBrioni, either in the form of limited sanctions or warnings.
- Although, personally I couldn't recommend sending him mere warnings this time, given how he has ignored all previous warnings in the past. For this reason, I believe that he be banned from editing the Expulsion of Cham Albanians ever again. An article-specific sanction on Expulsion of Cham Albanians could the best response to his constant disruptions. -- SILENTRESIDENT 13:00, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- I have to agree, i think the best option would be a very limited ban, perhaps to all things cham related? That may be too harsh however, I could see how a one article ban would likely work better. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly, a very limited ban on very specific articles rather than a generic topic-ban of a wide range of articles is what I believe to be fair for DevilWearsBrioni, given how most of his editorial misconducts and disruptions are concentrated to specific articles, not to all. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:11, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- I am puzzled. It appeared that the case had gone into mediation, and that there had been no disruptive editing of the article itself after the start of mediation. It appears that mediation is stalled, but mediation is privileged, and failure to cooperate with mediation is not sanctionable. I don't see any disruptive edits by DWB after the start of mediation. Were there disruptive edits before the start of mediation, but after DWB was alerted? This looks to me, unfortunately, like an effort at dumping on an editor who is outnumbered. Has the mediation failed, anyway, or should it be resumed? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:34, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- Robert, if you do believe that DevilWearsBrioni has remedied himself and "dropped the stick" of his personal perceptions of OR/NOR and that he won't once again stubbornly resume his disruptions, then, so be it. A strongly-worded warning should be given to him, but, if he ever resumes his disruptions on Albanian-related articles again, then a ban is on way for him. I am sorry if I can't exactly share your faith and optimism about him showing a better editorial conduct in the future, because he is really stubborn beyond limits. From what I can see, he has given us not even a slightest sign that he is letting it go. That he has refrained from any new disruptions during the October month, does not mean he has stopped with his disruptions forever. As you can see, it is not unusual for him to stop his disruptions for a long period and then suddenly resume them, at a later time, as he has done in September, after a long August break. Given this, what can reassure us that he wont resume them once Anthony Appleyard's mediation is over, like how he has already done after Iazyges's mediation was over? This is a rather rhetorical question, because history tends to repeat itself and I just want to be cautious. -- SILENTRESIDENT 17:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- I have to agree, i think it was less than a week between me closing the dispute and recommending RFC/ mediation, and him continuing disruption. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:13, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- Robert, if you do believe that DevilWearsBrioni has remedied himself and "dropped the stick" of his personal perceptions of OR/NOR and that he won't once again stubbornly resume his disruptions, then, so be it. A strongly-worded warning should be given to him, but, if he ever resumes his disruptions on Albanian-related articles again, then a ban is on way for him. I am sorry if I can't exactly share your faith and optimism about him showing a better editorial conduct in the future, because he is really stubborn beyond limits. From what I can see, he has given us not even a slightest sign that he is letting it go. That he has refrained from any new disruptions during the October month, does not mean he has stopped with his disruptions forever. As you can see, it is not unusual for him to stop his disruptions for a long period and then suddenly resume them, at a later time, as he has done in September, after a long August break. Given this, what can reassure us that he wont resume them once Anthony Appleyard's mediation is over, like how he has already done after Iazyges's mediation was over? This is a rather rhetorical question, because history tends to repeat itself and I just want to be cautious. -- SILENTRESIDENT 17:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- I am puzzled. It appeared that the case had gone into mediation, and that there had been no disruptive editing of the article itself after the start of mediation. It appears that mediation is stalled, but mediation is privileged, and failure to cooperate with mediation is not sanctionable. I don't see any disruptive edits by DWB after the start of mediation. Were there disruptive edits before the start of mediation, but after DWB was alerted? This looks to me, unfortunately, like an effort at dumping on an editor who is outnumbered. Has the mediation failed, anyway, or should it be resumed? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:34, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly, a very limited ban on very specific articles rather than a generic topic-ban of a wide range of articles is what I believe to be fair for DevilWearsBrioni, given how most of his editorial misconducts and disruptions are concentrated to specific articles, not to all. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:11, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- I have to agree, i think the best option would be a very limited ban, perhaps to all things cham related? That may be too harsh however, I could see how a one article ban would likely work better. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I'm equally puzzled. Not only does this request not follow the required AE template, Anthony has for some strange reason included a link to a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with me, while also pinging involved editors and urging them to "come to a decision as what is to happen with User:DevilWearsBrion". I'm once again baffled by the actions of Anthony. This looks to me, unfortunately, like an effort at dumping on an editor who is outnumbered.
That’s an oddly accurate assessment from someone who partook in the pile on against me at AN/I and then later here at AE. What changed since then?
@Iazyges: This was your closing statement, which contained several inaccuracies, at DRN. You then went on to remove the OR tag from the article since you apparently had decided that it wasn't OR. If you still believe you were justified in removing the OR tag because of your supposed authority as a DRN volunteer, then please say so. I'm still not clear on your position concerning this. Do you still believe that you have the authority to issue decisions? Or were you mistaken in believing so?
@SilentResident: You will soon be given another opportunity to provide diffs as evidence for the things you've repeatedly accused me of, e.g. multiple 3RR breaches. You've failed to do so every time I've requested it. This may give credence to what I've said about you creating a false narrative about me, don't you think? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with @Robert McClenon:'s assessment of the situation regarding Brioni. On my part i am ready to resume mediation. That matter regarding the Chams should have went there long ago, then when it did later. Now its there and should be dealt with there with the final outcome being binding for all editors. Much has been said of Brioni's behavior in here. However what has been ignored is that he has on many an article been a editor who has held a high esteem for wp:reliable and wp:secondary scholarship and used it in the article himself while also clearing up multiple problems of synthesis and other issues. A case in point is the Fustanella page [44] (see talk: [45]). Brioni has shown a commitment to upholding Wikipedia standards. The outcome here should be a final warning and with the resumption of the mediation process. With the conclusion of that (whenever that happens), if further issues continue then the book can be thrown in its entirety if rules are broken, as with all editors. Best.Resnjari (talk) 03:04, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- You may have not understood the Mediation rules, Resnjari, and why the DevilWearsBrioni case can not be resolved through mediations. If you read the Mediation faq, you will find that the Mediation Policy clearly states:
- "The basic aim of mediation is to help Wikipedia editors to contribute willingly together by helping to resolve their good-faith disagreements over article content'. As above, the mediation process is unsuitable for complaints about the behaviour of other editors; these should be directed to a project administrator (e.g. at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard) for evaluation. Mediation equally is not suited to parties who are disagreeing "for the sake of disagreeing" or who have no intention of compromising or discussing the thinking behind their positions. It is not an aim of mediation to produce mutual amity between the disputants, but increased tolerance and respect is an important goal."
- The Mediators intervening and helping in resolving content disputes could have been perfect if our case here was just a mere content dispute and nothing else. The Mediators can not intervene or help in regards to editorial misconducts by certain editors here who have been ramming content into the article and failed to show any willingness for compromises, and kept assuming bad faith of any editor they disagreed with. The editors refusing to think beyond their stubborn positions and reach a consensus with the rest of the community is what caused the current deadlock. Seeking a compromise which complies with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, did not prevent them from acting as if they are owners to the article and edit wars to ensue and Edit Warnings / ARBMAC Warnings to be given on their Talks. Since the Mediators are not here to tackle with the core of the present issues, and since a certain user here was able to ignore the outcomes of previous Mediations, then what can guarantee that the new Mediation's outcome won't be ignored again? Please. If you really wanted to participate in a mediation, then why haven't you done so in either Iazyge's or Anthony Appleyard's mediations? You had your chance you participate in two mediations thus far, but you have consciously chosen to be absent from both, unlike me, who participated in both mediations and who endured DevilWearsBrioni's endless rattles. Now, if you may, Anthony Appleyard was very clear: please keep discussion as concise as possible and come to a decision as what is to happen with User:DevilWearsBrioni, and any other related matters.. Please stick to this. -- SILENTRESIDENT 11:52, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with @Robert McClenon:'s assessment of the situation regarding Brioni. On my part i am ready to resume mediation. That matter regarding the Chams should have went there long ago, then when it did later. Now its there and should be dealt with there with the final outcome being binding for all editors. Much has been said of Brioni's behavior in here. However what has been ignored is that he has on many an article been a editor who has held a high esteem for wp:reliable and wp:secondary scholarship and used it in the article himself while also clearing up multiple problems of synthesis and other issues. A case in point is the Fustanella page [44] (see talk: [45]). Brioni has shown a commitment to upholding Wikipedia standards. The outcome here should be a final warning and with the resumption of the mediation process. With the conclusion of that (whenever that happens), if further issues continue then the book can be thrown in its entirety if rules are broken, as with all editors. Best.Resnjari (talk) 03:04, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for highlighting the vexatious nature of this complaint: "The mediation process is unsuitable for complaints about the behaviour of other editors." Here are some of the things you were allowed to say about me with impunity during mediation:
"not befitting a reliable and honest editor of Wikipedia"- "The editor DevilWearsBrioni must understand that editorial bias and arrogant behavior can not be tolerated"
- "DevilWearsBrioni is not a suitable and accountable editor for editing and improving ARBMAC-protected articles"
- "He is only using OR and SYNTH as a trojan horse to impose certain POV"
- "A very long dragging of feet for nothing besides listening to DevilWearsBrioni's POV everyday"
"he has resorted thousands of times into disruptive edits and tactics to achieve this goal."
- Contrary to what mediation policy claims, attacking the character of editors and lobbying for sanctions against them during mediation is totally fine apparently(?). I don't expect this to matter since mediation is privileged, but it's worth bringing up for context. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:44, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- DevilWearsBrioni, as you may be aware, my comments on your behavior were the result of your failure to abide by the mediation's procedures which require that every participant sticks within the discussion's framework set by the mediator.
You have been repeatedly called by both Robert and Anthony to stick to the point during mediation, but you have failed and refused, and this exactly is the exact reason I explained to Anthony and Robert why the idea for Mediation turned out to be UNSUITABLE for DISRUPTIVE EDITORS such as you, and hence my above sentences about you.Robert's mistake was to try resolve disputes caused by bad faith and disruptive editorial conduct through mediation, even when the rules are very clear for such cases: that a Mediation can not tackle effectively any cases of disruption. And if my memory does not fail me, I have ALREADY warned Robert that any new Mediations are bound to fail, in this talk page here: [46], where I told him: "I have a feeling that from the moment certain editors who evidently have not respected the previous Mediations, a new Mediation won't make any difference. History tends to repeat and all what we may accomplish at the end is just dragging our feet around without actually tackling the editors responsible for their disruptive behavior." Everyone can see how I predicted the failure of any new mediations, for the fact that their procedures are not suitable for resolving such cases of disruption, and, as everyone can see now, Anthony's Mediation was no exception to this rule: his mediation was bound to fail from the start due to the unusual case of disruption we had to deal with. But Robert, despite my warnings and cautions, has ignored me and he boldly proceed to request mediation nevertheless. But I do not blame Robert at all. In fact, I congratulate him and I praise him for his tireless and sincere efforts to resolve this notorious OR/SYNTH case through peaceful means. I completely admire Robert for his peaceful efforts to resolve such cases, but thing is, you are extremely stubborn editor, and such stubbornness is the exact reason Robert's efforts failed, Anthony's mediation failed, Iazyge's mediation failed, disruption kept ongoing for 10 months, and more. Like I said: mediations are unsuitable places for disruptive editors. Am I clear or do I have to repeat myself? -- SILENTRESIDENT 13:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)- As i said before, i am still in agreement with Robert McClenon's assessment of the situation. The issue that has arisen here is that Brioni is disruptive when editing. All the examples cited here by other editors go back to earlier in the year. Yet this case was brought after the issue regarding the Chams article went to mediation. If there was such a problematic issue, should not the issue regarding behavior been brought long ago to this forum instead of after mediation occurred ? The reason why things have gone here or there is because this matter should have gone to mediation much earlier. No editor involved in that discussion in the talk page is clean. Its why mediation is needed in the end. At mediation whatever the outcome is, its final and must be accepted by all. This article is complex and that process should resume instead of time being wasted here. A warning as a final outcome would do with proper notification. On my part i am ready to resume the mediation process.Resnjari (talk) 14:20, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- Even more mediation with DevilWearsBrioni? Sorry but this ain't happening. I don't have all the time for him. DevilWearsBrioni already had more chances to remedy himself and he has drawn more attention than most disruptive editors normally could, but this farce has to come to an end now. It is time to stop dragging our feet around this OR/SYNTH case forever and finally have something be done with that user. Either ban him, either warn him, but in all case, put this to an end so we all can move on. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:03, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- Whether or not a editor participates in mediation is a separate matter for them to consider. On my part, I will be involved there. Like i said before i am in agreement with Robert's assessment of the issue regarding Brioni.Resnjari (talk) 15:42, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- Even more mediation with DevilWearsBrioni? Sorry but this ain't happening. I don't have all the time for him. DevilWearsBrioni already had more chances to remedy himself and he has drawn more attention than most disruptive editors normally could, but this farce has to come to an end now. It is time to stop dragging our feet around this OR/SYNTH case forever and finally have something be done with that user. Either ban him, either warn him, but in all case, put this to an end so we all can move on. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:03, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- As i said before, i am still in agreement with Robert McClenon's assessment of the situation. The issue that has arisen here is that Brioni is disruptive when editing. All the examples cited here by other editors go back to earlier in the year. Yet this case was brought after the issue regarding the Chams article went to mediation. If there was such a problematic issue, should not the issue regarding behavior been brought long ago to this forum instead of after mediation occurred ? The reason why things have gone here or there is because this matter should have gone to mediation much earlier. No editor involved in that discussion in the talk page is clean. Its why mediation is needed in the end. At mediation whatever the outcome is, its final and must be accepted by all. This article is complex and that process should resume instead of time being wasted here. A warning as a final outcome would do with proper notification. On my part i am ready to resume the mediation process.Resnjari (talk) 14:20, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- DevilWearsBrioni, as you may be aware, my comments on your behavior were the result of your failure to abide by the mediation's procedures which require that every participant sticks within the discussion's framework set by the mediator.
- Contrary to what mediation policy claims, attacking the character of editors and lobbying for sanctions against them during mediation is totally fine apparently(?). I don't expect this to matter since mediation is privileged, but it's worth bringing up for context. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 12:44, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Thought and Suggestion
First, it appears to be that the formal mediation has failed. Either the editors who disagree with DWB should withdraw from the mediation on grounds that it has failed, or User:Anthony Appleyard can (if the Mediation Committee permits) formally declare the mediation to have failed. Second, the next step is to resume discussion on the article talk page, and DWB has been formally alerted to discretionary sanctions. I don't see this Arbitration Enforcement request as serving any useful purpose. Close it somehow. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:13, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: I better declare that this mediation has failed. It remains to decide what to do with DWB. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 17:28, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I agree, and I have already decided to withdraw from Anthony Appleyard's mediation. Note: it is not Anthony's fault, nor Robert's fault. Just it couldn't work. If any new mediations are to be called in the future, they better be requested on grounds of resolving content disputes between non-disruptive editors as per Mediation's rules, and not on grounds of resolving disputes caused by certain disruptive editors, like I explained in a message to Anthony and Iazyges on my talk page. Again, I appreciate everyone for your tireless efforts to resolve the DevilWearsBrioni's notorious OR/SYNTH case. You have my thanks. -- SILENTRESIDENT 18:03, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon and Anthony Appleyard:, how has mediation failed ? Four editors are listed for mediation. Brioni and Silent partook in the discussion regarding certain issues while others did not at that point in time. On my part i thought those two editors were capable and also was under the assumption that such a discussion on that forum would be over time without time constraints. I had to attend to a few things in my personal life back then. In no way did it mean that a discussion of all issues concerning the article was brought up for discussion, especially by me. What is the alternative? More long winded commentary in the talk or possible edit warring over time by other editors. Those outcomes are even more dispiriting and disruptive. This article is one of the few remaining articles of consequence for at least the Albanian Wikipedia project needing to be addressed and consensus at times has been skewed due to numbers and not consideration of the scholarship. Closing mediation will just mean that this article becomes a hotspot for the usual Balkan dispute that makes some editors more quick to launch enforcement requests than to be constructive in making the article better (just going by personal experience on this one).Resnjari (talk) 20:01, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Resnjari - Whether the mediation has failed is, in the end, the judgment of the mediator, User:Anthony Appleyard, but User:SilentResident appears to think (as do I, but I am not a participant), that User:DevilWearsBrioni was filibustering. If you and the mediator think that mediation will work, more power to you. I had hoped that mediation would work, but there are other things that I hope for also. In any event, this is not the place to discuss whether to mediate, and this does not appear to be a properly filed request for Arbitration Enforcement. What do you, User:Resnjari, propose? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Resnjari: for years, and before DevilWearsBrioni appears, you didn't had any problem using the talk pages for reaching a consensus with other editors, including myself, for improvements and additions on various Balkan articles, including the article Expulsion of Cham Albanians. And this, without the help of the mediators. Unlike DevilWearsBrioni, you have managed just fine to use the talk page for discussing the changes for reaching consensus with others, even in the most difficult of all Balkan articles. Try using the Talk Pages and if you ever run into any problems or disagreements with other editors, Wikipedia offers an array of options for resolving them. As long as you and the others respect the rules, everything should be fine. And as for the current mediation, it is over for me, I am afraid. And I have withdrawn my participation as I do not think I can stick around the same case forever. Sorry. If you want to discuss anything, use the talk page, as User:Robert McClenon has suggested. As for me, I am going to take a much much needed break from the pixelated and bureaucratic world known as Wikipedia. I wish you all the best. -- SILENTRESIDENT 20:36, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- For me i would say to continue mediation. A final warning should be given here to all that only the scholarship should be the focus. No other shenanigans. Who ever stuffs up there (no more chances) loses the privilege and gets excluded from participating with the addition of further enforcement action (topic bans etc). Otherwise this will go on forever and in future there might be other editors creating other headaches on that article. User:Robert McClenon, you have seen how these Balkan related topics can go with disputes and become nightmarish. Mediation at least has a binding and final outcome. This article is one of those that requires a more prudent approach due too the complexity of the subject matter. A reconsideration by User:Anthony Appleyard of keeping open mediation would be most appreciated. At least two other editors involved should also have a chance to participate.Resnjari (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:SilentResident I have used talkpages extensively and some editors have said i use them too much. This article though has reached many impasses. On the mediation page looking at it, the is a sense that one issue was being rushed and another introduced. It should be done one at a time with Anthony at the end saying this is decided or that is decided before another issue is raised. All at once is not a good thing and I thought little things would be resolved when the process started between both of you. Anyway mediation allows for a prolonged discussion without the added stress factor of haste. Maybe we can put it off for a week or two and everyone comes back with fresh eyes and a clear head (and from the date of resumption all need to participate). If mediation is closed the article has issues relating to the intro and other matters that will just fester and cause more problems that will stir passions among Greek and Albanian Wikipedians instead of a constrictive outcome. I have edited many contentious articles and have seen many have frustration guide their editing instead of guidelines and scholarship. Lets finish this off with a binding outcome in mediation.Resnjari (talk) 21:04, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Resnjari - Would someone please provide me with a link to the statement that mediation has a binding and final outcome? I was not aware of that. A Request for Comments has a binding outcome, although nothing in Wikipedia is final because consensus can change. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Robert McClenon, as far as I know, no content can be "final". Everything in Wikipedia, be them rules, or articles, or whatever, can change, be improved or overwritten. Likewise, the content in the pages gets updated with new information and sources. Everything is susceptible to changes, even editorial consensuses cannot stay the same for ever and can be challenged at any time, as long as they are in accordance with Wikipedia's principles and rules. After all, the flow of information and sources in the world is constant, by both new and old scholars, and it is inevitable for Wikipedia to be updated to reflect the new information. I assume Resnjari meant the decisions being binding to the participants of the mediation? if yes, this is a totally different thing. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:40, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, in addition to what Robert said about consensus can change, certain rules are above consensus, such as WP:NPOV which states: This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:50, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Robert McClenon the final sentence of the mediation policy WP:M says: "The purpose of mediation is to secure a result that benefits the encyclopedia—not to ensure fairness for any one contributor. Mediators work with disputants but for the encyclopedia." In my comments i had that in mind and interpreted it as inferring something binding or at least towards being something final in the scope of discussing a certain matter at that point in time. I am aware that things are liable to change depending on the circumstances of new scholarship etc etc. I hope that clears things on my part. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:55, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- I am off to bed on my side of the world as i have stayed up too late. Ping me for further developments. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Robert McClenon the final sentence of the mediation policy WP:M says: "The purpose of mediation is to secure a result that benefits the encyclopedia—not to ensure fairness for any one contributor. Mediators work with disputants but for the encyclopedia." In my comments i had that in mind and interpreted it as inferring something binding or at least towards being something final in the scope of discussing a certain matter at that point in time. I am aware that things are liable to change depending on the circumstances of new scholarship etc etc. I hope that clears things on my part. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:55, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Resnjari - Would someone please provide me with a link to the statement that mediation has a binding and final outcome? I was not aware of that. A Request for Comments has a binding outcome, although nothing in Wikipedia is final because consensus can change. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Resnjari: for years, and before DevilWearsBrioni appears, you didn't had any problem using the talk pages for reaching a consensus with other editors, including myself, for improvements and additions on various Balkan articles, including the article Expulsion of Cham Albanians. And this, without the help of the mediators. Unlike DevilWearsBrioni, you have managed just fine to use the talk page for discussing the changes for reaching consensus with others, even in the most difficult of all Balkan articles. Try using the Talk Pages and if you ever run into any problems or disagreements with other editors, Wikipedia offers an array of options for resolving them. As long as you and the others respect the rules, everything should be fine. And as for the current mediation, it is over for me, I am afraid. And I have withdrawn my participation as I do not think I can stick around the same case forever. Sorry. If you want to discuss anything, use the talk page, as User:Robert McClenon has suggested. As for me, I am going to take a much much needed break from the pixelated and bureaucratic world known as Wikipedia. I wish you all the best. -- SILENTRESIDENT 20:36, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Resnjari - Whether the mediation has failed is, in the end, the judgment of the mediator, User:Anthony Appleyard, but User:SilentResident appears to think (as do I, but I am not a participant), that User:DevilWearsBrioni was filibustering. If you and the mediator think that mediation will work, more power to you. I had hoped that mediation would work, but there are other things that I hope for also. In any event, this is not the place to discuss whether to mediate, and this does not appear to be a properly filed request for Arbitration Enforcement. What do you, User:Resnjari, propose? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon and Anthony Appleyard:, how has mediation failed ? Four editors are listed for mediation. Brioni and Silent partook in the discussion regarding certain issues while others did not at that point in time. On my part i thought those two editors were capable and also was under the assumption that such a discussion on that forum would be over time without time constraints. I had to attend to a few things in my personal life back then. In no way did it mean that a discussion of all issues concerning the article was brought up for discussion, especially by me. What is the alternative? More long winded commentary in the talk or possible edit warring over time by other editors. Those outcomes are even more dispiriting and disruptive. This article is one of the few remaining articles of consequence for at least the Albanian Wikipedia project needing to be addressed and consensus at times has been skewed due to numbers and not consideration of the scholarship. Closing mediation will just mean that this article becomes a hotspot for the usual Balkan dispute that makes some editors more quick to launch enforcement requests than to be constructive in making the article better (just going by personal experience on this one).Resnjari (talk) 20:01, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I agree, and I have already decided to withdraw from Anthony Appleyard's mediation. Note: it is not Anthony's fault, nor Robert's fault. Just it couldn't work. If any new mediations are to be called in the future, they better be requested on grounds of resolving content disputes between non-disruptive editors as per Mediation's rules, and not on grounds of resolving disputes caused by certain disruptive editors, like I explained in a message to Anthony and Iazyges on my talk page. Again, I appreciate everyone for your tireless efforts to resolve the DevilWearsBrioni's notorious OR/SYNTH case. You have my thanks. -- SILENTRESIDENT 18:03, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Resnjari, SilentResident, and Robert McClenon: OK, keep mediation open, if it will be any use, with DevilWearsBrioni continuing to filibuster. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:59, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Anthony Appleyard:
Oh my... a mediation where the filibuster is the sole participant in it? I am up for it (as observer, not as participant), I could love see a filibuster's production of kilobytes... :-) - Anthony, may I ask, will you inform me about the procedures of the mediation's closure, or do I have just to withdraw from it? In this case, do I have follow any specific steps (such as deleting my name from the Mediation's list of participants or whatever)? My apologies for my inexperience, this is my first time in a mediation and I am unsure about how the procedures really work. -- SILENTRESIDENT 00:36, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Anthony Appleyard:
- @SilentResident: User:TransporterMan seems to be in charge of mediations. Best tell him, if you as well as me see no more use in trying to negotiate with DWB. I as an admin could block him any time, but I better follow the usual procedure. And, please everybody, try to keep discussion concise. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:50, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Per the statement of the mediator that the mediation has no ongoing hope of resolution, I have closed the mediation case. The privilege of mediation still applies, however, and anything heretofore said or done in the course of mediation may not be used as evidence in this or any other conduct proceeding. For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 23:19, 13 November 2016 (UTC) (Chairperson)
Thought and Suggestion (part 2)
Towns Hill
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Towns Hill
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- EvergreenFir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:36, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIPA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 07:03, 18 October 2016 Edit on Kashmir related to Dogra dynasty, which would fall under Pakistani-Indian conflict.
- 09:40, 10 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan saying "
Since 1989, thousands of Kashmiri Muslim refugees have sought refuge in Pakistan, complaining that many of the refugee women had been raped by Indian soldiers and that they were forced out of their homes by the soldiers.
" Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan. - 22:11, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan about the First Kashmir War, the partition of India, the rape of Kashmiri women by Indian soldiers, and genocide. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
- 21:56, 12 November 2016 Edit on Pakistan which copied material from Partition of India. Similar to 22:11, 12 November 2016 edit. Unambiguously related to conflict between India and Pakistan.
- 02:35, 14 November 2016 edit made after user replied to this AE. Edit falls under tban.
- 02:38, 14 November 2016 Same as above
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 02:49, 24 March 2016 Discretionary sanctions (1RR) placed on user by Slakr for 1 month
- 00:20, 1 April 2016 Blocked by Drmies for 60 hours for edit warring on Bangladesh Liberation War.
- 15:12, 15 May 2016 Topic banned from "
Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh.
" by EdJohnston. Can be appealed after 6 months. - 01:02, 1 October 2016 Blocked by Lankiveil for 72 hours for topic ban violation as a result of previous AE filing
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 15:12, 15 May 2016 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Other edits "toe the line" but these were the most egregious. In the previous AE filing, the validity of the Bangladesh topic ban was questioned as it's not explicitly mentioned in WP:ARBIPA so I have excluded diffs related to violation of that aspect of the topic ban.
- @Mar4d: you'll have to ask EdJohnston why he did the topic ban. It appears to be because the user was disruptive. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Towns Hill
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Towns Hill
The original ban was imposed invalidly to begin with. It was hastily issued and based upon one editor's incendiary comment to an admin's talk page. I was never reported at AE and was not even given a chance to defend myself. I was banned on a comment of an editor who went on admin shopping and knew which admin would be more than willing to entertain his request because that specific admin has been mentioning distributing topic-bans on forums in the past. Towns_Hill 21:59, 13 November 2016 (UTC) Towns Hill
Statement by Mar4d
No comment on the ruling, but as far as this whole sanction on Towns Hill is concerned, it really appears counterproductive and pointless to me, in my opinion. I think the purpose of sanctions is not punitive, but preventative. This filing appears to give an impression of the former. Some of the diffs cited above for example appear to be actually productive edits, and appear to improve article content (particularly those on the ethnic Kashmiris page). This doesn't harm Wikipedia so long as Towns Hill makes sure his additions are reliably sourced and verifiable. Towns Hill has kept to his restriction for a few months, and I think he has the potential to be a productive editor. Instead of wasting time on these nitty-gritty enforcements, I for one think we should re-visit the sanctions in the first place, and try to re-integrate TH into editing. Why were they enforced, and what can/should be improved? I would be happy to guide TH or provide assistance if necessary. Mar4d (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Kautilya3
First of all, to clarify my position on EdJohnston's topic ban. I had misread the topic ban wording in the first instance and thought that it was a ban on all India and Pakistan pages. So I thought it was too severe. When I did finally notice that it was limited to India-Pakistan conflicts, I thought the ban was appropriate.
When Towns Hill came on the scene, pretty much all the India-Pakistan conflict pages went up in flames. If the ban is lifted, I am afraid we might go back to the same situation. I did try to engage with Towns Hill quite seriously prior to the ban, e.g., here, but I am afraid it fell on deaf ears. Has his behaviour improved since the ban? I think not.
Here, for instance, is an edit where Towns Hill got into a dispute (on Kashmiri diaspora). Whereas I tried to open a talk page discussion to try and find a resolution, Towns Hill put his foot down and reinstated his edit. In this instance, I agree with Towns Hill on the merits of the issue, but not with his way of dealing with it. Kashmiri diaspora is a little corner, where this behaviour didn't give rise to any great problems. If he does this kind of thing again at Bangladesh liberation war, we will again have flame wars.
So my recommendation is to cut him some slack in dealing with Kashmir, which is his special interest, but continue the wider topic ban until he learns to finds his way around WP:NPOV and resolving disputes amicably. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- The edits 1, 5, and 6 mentioned above are not covered by the topic ban in my opinion. The Dogra dynasty is neither India nor Pakistan. And, what happened in the 19th century is unrelated to India-Pakistan conflict as well. Conflicts between Kashmiris and India, or those between Kashmiris and Pakistan are also not covered by the ban. I would like to recommend that these areas be left open for Towns Hill to edit so that he can demonstrate his good will in due course. All matters regarding Partition of India are of course part of India-Pakistan conflict. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:35, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Towns Hill
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Noticing that User:Mar4d and User:Kautilya3 see value in User:Towns Hill's edits, I asked User:EvergreenFir on their talk page about the idea of lifting the ban. It is disappointing that Towns Hill seems unable to follow the terms of the existing ban, but if the ban is lifted this problem will no longer occur. Any comments? If anyone wants to review their edits, notice that all their warnings and blocks (since account creation in January) are still visible at User talk:Towns Hill. Towns Hill does not seem to have much insight into which of their edits might be controversial, and they have gotten into edit wars, but they sometimes do good work. They seem not to understand either 3RR or 1RR, so if these problems recur, they will probably get blocked again.
- To get a quick overview of the problems with Towns Hill you might look at User talk:Towns Hill#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction 2 and the discussion that follows it. Towns Hill does have academic knowledge, but switches into battleground mode easily when they feel people are opposing them unfairly. EdJohnston (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- I am not a fan of lifting restrictions because people refuse to abide by them, however productive some of their edits may be judged by others. The correct route to appeal a sanction is not an enforcement request by someone concerned about violation of the sanction. Guy (Help!) 23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
- Well, on the theory that we shouldn't reward people for ignoring their bans, this case ought to close with a regular block for some period, and if Towns Hill wants the ban lifted or modified he should file an Arbitration Enforcement Appeal. Which we would not address in the current thread. EdJohnston (talk) 05:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
EEng
There's no consensus that any sanctions should apply against EEng. While there is also not a consensus on whether the initial deletion was appropriate, the matter was later resolved through discussion, so it's rather moot at this point. No further action has been suggested or seems to be needed. There may be an indication that a wider community discussion is needed on what's acceptable in terms of "joke" and satire pages, but that's well beyond the scope of AE. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning EEng
Userpage contained massive, massive BLP violations, including calling public figures "pussies", extensive allegations of Donald Trump being a Nazi, snippets of speeches with things Trump rails against wikilinked to Jews, accusations of racism, antisemitism, and a whole lot that I could devote many paragraphs to. Frankly, it is the worst BLP violation in userspace I've seen in a long time. I'm baffled that it was allowed to stand for this long, with a number of veteran editors even applauding the effort on his talkpage and contributing to it. Aside from the obvious BLP, we also have WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:UP#POLEMIC that this crosses the line on. I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs, but as I'm recused from AP2 enforcement I'm not going to take further unilateral action, and instead will bring it here for uninvolved admin input. The WordsmithTalk to me 22:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning EEngStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by EEng
Those three points aside, since the election's now over and the amusement potential has drained from the situation, I'm happy to let the chips fall where they may, according to the community's judgment. EEng 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by FloquenbeamMeh. Won't argue with the deletion, but no sanction needed, I don't imagine EEng is going to reinstate it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Comment by Iridescent
Statement by User:Martinevans123
Statement by Davey2010IMHO the page hadn't contained any BLP violations and being totally honest this whole enforcement thing didn't need to happen either ... TW could've simply left a message and saved all our times being wasted, Userpage should be reinstated and TW should move on. –Davey2010Talk 23:09, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by HBHComparing anyone or anything to Hitler is beyond the pale. Good work, Herr Wordsmith --Hillbillyholiday talk 23:13, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by BU Rob13I'd like to see any editor assert, in good faith, that calling one of Trump's sons "a chip off the old pussy" is not a BLP violation. I also eagerly await any good-faith attempts to justify comparing Trump's wife to a sex doll. Or perhaps the assertion that Chris Christie has a fetish for overweight women. Gamaliel resigned as an arbitrator and administrator in no small part because of referring to Trump's hands as being small. This goes so far beyond that. This is the worst BLP violation I have ever seen, by far, and it targets many of individuals. It is nothing short of an attack page. As for those saying this should have been resolved through discussion, I would agree with you, if not for the extremely long and detailed discussion on EEng's talk page, which he summarily ignored, deleting no content whatsoever. At the very least, a topic ban from modern American politics is necessary. I would restrict it to the Trump family if not for the plethora of other politicians targeted on this user page. ~ Rob13Talk 23:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SoftlavenderI don't see any talk-page discussion with EEng about any concerns regarding his userpage: [58]. As of this writing, I do not see any WP:CONSENSUS here that the userpage should have been deleted. I do not see any WP:MFD filed on the page. The Wordsmith deleted it as WP:G10, G10. Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose (underscoring mine), which it clearly wasn't. Above he states "I've summarily deleted the page as per policy and in keeping with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff#Summary deletion of BLPs", but it is a userpage, not a BLP, not an article, which the Arb ruling specifically refers to. Nor was there any discussion whatsoever on the matter before this summary deletion of this 113,000-byte humor page, which was mostly gentle humor about Wikipedia. EEng's userpage has been a source of blessed humor and relief from the frequent problems of Wikipedia for many many years. His page has 164 watchers [59], among them numerous admins. I agree with EEng above that:
This entire deletion action was out-of-process, and the rationales applied for summarily deleting without any discussion whatsoever did not even apply. Moreover, there is no way for the community at large to adequately discuss the matter since the material in question has vanished. Consequently, I request a restoration of the entire page. If it then needs to be collapsed or blanked while discussion proceeds, fair enough, but we can't let this unauthorized deletion stand since it was clearly not done properly at all. Softlavender (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by K.e.coffmanNot sure if non-admins are supposed to comment, but the deletion seems silly. It's a humor page & most of these things have been reported in the press anyway. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by IazygesFrankly I don't know EEng very well, but his userpage sort of falls into the "All kinds of humor", his userpage is possibly unique in that it pisses you off, makes you laugh, and shocked, sometimes all at once. No crimes I can see here, but perhaps a bit of a recommendation on his terminology for the Trump family. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Statement by KrakatoaKatieI'm stunned to see the level of willful blindness displayed here by some people I respect. I am no fan of Donald Trump. I detest everything he stands for. But this is no 'gentle humor about Wikipedia'. This is pure attack, nothing less. We have, for example:
And there's more. The farther down the page you go, the more terrible it becomes. There's even a suggestion that Hillary Clinton was a dancer at Jack Ruby's burlesque club thrown in for good measure. That photo, to me, brings this squarely under ARBAP2 because EEng is using this page to make political statements about post-1932 American politics. I fail to see how this is humor about Wikipedia, or gentle, or anything less than egregious and willful attacks on living persons. You can say whatever you want about anyone in the privacy of your own home and among your friends. Wikipedia is not private and WP:BLPTALK applies here. Like Trump or don't like him, I don't care. But we cannot allow this kind of thing to stand. If we do, we're no better than we were before Badlydrawnjeff was decided in 2007. In case you weren't around then, we were really bad. Katietalk 01:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Comment by Mitch AmesThe User:EEng page (eg at this version) violated WP:SMI in that some of the images appear over the top of the tools (navigation, search, interaction, tools) on the left side of the page, making those tools hard to use from that page. This is the case for both:
This is probably less important the other content issues mentioned above (eg BLP), but it is annoying, and contrary to the guidelines. Even if all the rest of the material was restored, I suggest that the Thought by Shock Brigade Harvester BorisIt was fun, but you knew it couldn't last. In light of the global rise of authoritarianism it would be nice if there could be a safe space for freedom of expression. That's not the mission of en:wp but maybe it could be a WMF spinoff project. Just a thought. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Nothing new from GerdaIt was fun, and not a Wikipedia article. If parts seemed offending they should have been commented out and discussed. Softlavender and Newyorkbrad explained well, I won't repeat. - When will my user page be deleted without discussion? It proclaims that I am a member of project Freedom of speech, and of the cabal of the outcasts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Ryk72While I am not an Administrator, I did view the material in question prior to its deletion, and am satisfied that that deletion was the correct course of action. The page clearly met WP:CSD#G10, and the suggestion that the content was a "humourous" or "satirical" diversion, invoking the
Statement by MRD2014All those revisions got deleted, but have not been restored. I think the deletion was enough. The revisions of the page that were deleted were definitely violations of WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:BLP, but the revisions that contained them have been removed, and I think we can just move on. —MRD2014 (talk • contribs) 13:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Patient ZeroKrakatoaKatie's analysis is spot on. I don't find the page particularly funny, and yes, it was a blatant BLP violation. Quite frankly I'm disturbed by the fact that administrators were praising the page. Patient Zerotalk 13:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephI agree with the deletion and most of KrakatoaKatie's assessment. The user page and talk page are also violations of policy and should be looked into. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸(talk) 14:41, 17 November 2016 (UTC) Result concerning EEng
|
Anonywiki
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Anonywiki
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Neutrality (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Anonywiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 13:29, September 24, 2016: Anonywiki removes with the edit summary: "Rubbish. There is no 'scientific consensus' that GMOs are 'safe' period and neither could there be, the only consensus is that they are not inherently, necessarily harmful.)"
- 10:56, November 13, 2016: Anonywiki removes statement about scientific consensus on GMOs with the following edit summary: "RUBBISH"
- 11:47, November 13, 2016 less than one hour after being reverted by Snooganssnoogans, Anonywiki reverts with the edit summary: "I assure you that GMOs are not 'regarded as safe by scientific consensus"
- 13:02, November 13, 2016: after being reverted, Anonywiki changes "pointed out that they contradict the scientific consensus" to "alleging they contradict the scientific consensus...," despite the fact that several of the cited sources—including this article written by an academic who studies the rise of conspiracy theorizing—notes that the article subject "engendered GMO conspiracy theories...despite the overwhelming scientific consensus..."
- 20:11, November 16, 2016 after being reverted, Anonywiki again reverts with the edit summary: "Please check your reading comprehension. There is no 'unwarranted doubt' to alleging, 'pointing out' is false"
- 20:37, November 16, 2016: removes entire section, including 10 cited references, with the edit summary: "I'm sorry to say this, but these links are really all nonsense. They are all opinion pieces, they aren't proper news citations for the claim at all.)"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- (Two blocks and multiple warnings from before 2010 are not mentioned, for brevity's sake and because they are too distant in time to be relevant)
- September 27, 2010: Anonywiki blocked for personal attacks or harassment by Seraphimblade (72 hours)
- October 1, 2010: Anonywiki blocked for disruptive editing and WP:POINT by John & Chaser (1 week, lifted one day later)
- 17:20, December 12, 2011: Anonywiki is warned by McDoobAU93 for making personal attack
- 16:31, 13 December 2011: Anonywiki is warned by Sergecross73 for making personal attacks
- 22:43, May 24, 2014: Anonywiki is warned by Daffydavid for 3RR violations & disruptive editing.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- 11:04, November 13, 2016: warned via edit summary by Snooganssnoogans to "see talk page. this is under discretionary sanctions, do not revert."
- 12:44, November 13, 2016: given alert on user talk page about discretionary sanctions for both post-1932 American politics and GMOs
- 18:49, November 16, 2016: warned via edit summary by me of intent to pursue Arbitration Enforcement would be next stop if disruptive editing continued
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Anonywiki makes large-scale or controversial edits that change stable article content without meaningfully engaging on the talk page, even after his edits are reverted by multiple other editors.
- Anonywiki routinely disparages other editors and their work in edit summaries (e.g., "check your reading comprehension"; "Rubbish"; "RUBBISH"; "all nonsense").
- Anonywiki leans on his or her own authority, rather than on citations to experts/scholars/scientists, journalists, etc. ("I assure you that GMOs are not 'regarded as safe by scientific consensus'")
- Anonywiki fails to cite to policies or guidelines in making wholesale removals of material, nor in adding/changing contentious material.
- Anonywiki makes incorrect or misleading statements of fact — such as saying that references cited are "all opinion pieces" when in fact the sources cited include a detailed Washington Post news piece from a policy reporter and an analysis from a political science professor at the University of Miami who is the co-author of American Conspiracy Theories (Oxford University Press, 2014) — both of which directly and clearly support the proposition in the article.
- Anonywiki's statement below that "there is NO SOURCE that states commentators 'pointed out she went against the scientific consensus'" is simply wrong (and typical of the tendentious editing and "I can't hear you" behavior of this user). See the following refs (all cited in the article, and removed by Anonywiki):
- Max Ehrenfreund, What Jill Stein, the Green presidential candidate, wants to do to America, Washington Post (August 2, 2016): "Her platform calls for a moratorium on GMOs in foods 'until they are proven safe.' A recent report published by the European Union reviewed dozens of studies of genetically modified organisms and concluded they were no more dangerous than conventionally bred strains. The American Association for the Advancement of Science agrees...")
- Joseph Uscinski, The 5 Most Dangerous Conspiracy Theories of 2016, Politico Magazine (August 22, 2016) ("Stein [has] ... engendered GMO conspiracy theories, which claim that big agriculture and biotech companies are hiding the negative environmental and health consequences of farming and consuming genetically modified foods. This is despite the overwhelming scientific consensus that genetically modified food is safe to eat").
--Neutralitytalk 02:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Anonywiki
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Anonywiki
The claim is that commentators "pointed out she went against the scientific consensus". There is NO SOURCE that states commentators "pointed out she went against the scientific consensus".
It's just reading comprehension. Instead of coming up with a bunch of cliched "arguments" I suggest that's what the user should be more concerned about.
The "scientific consensus" claim is on very shaky ground, there are tons of scientists that state there is no scientific consensus. This was a compromise statement. User has no understanding of the issue. Hobbyists and dilettantes should refrain from making edits on such points that have specific scientific meanings and contexts that are clearly lost on them. Anonywiki (talk)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Anonywiki
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.