Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard

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Karl Rove

The last paragraph of the lede paragraph for a while has read as follows:

Rove's name has come up in a number of political scandals. These include the Valerie Plame affair, the Bush White House e-mail controversy and the related dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy, among others. To date, no charges have been filed against Rove for any of his alleged illegal activities.

Several editors (myself included) have raised concerns about the bolded part of the paragraph. The paragraph has since been changed, but other editors have raised the possibility of restoring it. Does the bold sentence violate WP:BLP? Soxwon (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Rove is very controversial so supporters may be opposed to the language and opponents in support of it. If the sentence considered is "to date, no charges have been filed against ____ for any of his alleged illegal activities", then this may be considered more objectively. There are politicians of both parties whose names could be inserted, just google some politician scandals. The bottom line is that adding "for any of his alleged illegal activities" does make it a BLP violation. Ipromise (talk) 06:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

As the author of the original paragraph, which stood from last summer until a few days ago, the intent was to find a middle ground. Rove is, as I understand it, under active investigation, hence the wording. Please see the current Rove talk page for more information. Archive 7 and 8 shows some of the turmoil from the era, and my current talk page also has recent material regarding this. Best, Jusdafax 07:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I took the phrase out. As a neutral from the UK I thought it was weasely and speculative and opinionated and does not belong in the lede at all. if as Justafax claims that the guy is actually under current specific investigation then details of the specifics could be added to the body of the article but to have such an open, unspecific comment in the lede is awful (imo). What are these alleged illegal activities? Who is investigating him and what are these people investigating him about? When will the investigation (if there is one) end? How jolly mysterious. Off2riorob (talk) 14:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I have answered these concerns in exchanges with this user on my talk page and the Rove talk page, but the user has stated they refuse to google anything or look into the archives. In addition the user appears to me (and after the events of last summer, I admit to sensitivity) to be using terms both above, and elsewhere, that approach or cross over the limits of what I understand to be WP:BAIT. Thanks, Jusdafax 15:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

• Actually, this issue is fairly straightforward. Do we have a reliable source saying "no charges have ever been filed against Rove", or something roughly equivalent to that? If so, then it is probably a good idea to include it. If not, then it should be omitted, because such a contention would then constitute original research. We need to go with what the sources say. *** Crotalus *** 16:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
• Firstly I find User Justafax's comments about me regarding WP:BAIT without any foundation at all and shows from him a complete lack of good faith.

I found this at [1]

"On June 12, 2006, Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald formally advised us that he does not anticipate seeking charges against Karl Rove."

"In deference to the pending case, we will not make any further public statements about the subject matter of the investigation. We believe that the Special Counsel’s decision should put an end to the baseless speculation about Mr. Rove’s conduct." Off2riorob (talk) 17:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Stale - That article is well over three years old, and is not relevant to the current matter. Again, I have given Off2riorob specific information regarding this, which the user chooses to ignore. I will now paste some of the material from the Rove talk page to this one to demonstrate this. Begin paste

Again, on Aug. 13, the New York Tmes says this: "Congress must continue its investigation into the firing of top prosecutors and call Karl Rove and others to testify so the American people can hear how the justice system was hijacked." Try googling 'Nora Dannehy' and any combination of 'Rove' or 'attorneys firing' for more information on an ongoing investigation. It's my view that 'To date' stands, by Wikipedia standards. Jusdafax 00:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

It is still not required to be in the lede. I am not going to google anything, all I care about is the weasel pov opinionated edit in the lede. Off2riorob (talk) 00:33, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Would I be correct in saying that you support this edit and don't want to change a word of it? Off2riorob (talk) 00:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

As I said, I wrote the paragraph you object to. Frankly, I see it as a compromise between those who would word it much more strongly, and those who don't want mention of Mr. Rove's ongoing legal issues at all (however, remember, he had to testify before the U.S. Congress earlier this year.) I'm open to discussion within reason, but I think by any reasonable standard, you fail to make a case.

To recap: Rove is being investigated at the current time by a U.S. Prosecutor, Nora Dannehy. Now I know you say you won't google anything, so how about clicking on her link? It shows who she is, and what she's investigating. Now click on this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13thu2.html which mentions Rove as a player in the investigations, based on his testimony before Congress.

The day Rove is either cleared, or charged with a crime, is the day we can remove this moderate paragraph. At least, that's how I see it.

End paste

This pasted material demonstrates that we are going in circles here. The person who brought this issue back to this page, User:Soxwon, was warned in September warned for edit-warring on Rove's page. It seems, to me, given the edit histories of both Soxwon and Off2RioRob, that we have long since reached a point of diminishing returns on this issue. I ask for a speedy decision here so that the issue can move forward. Best, Jusdafax 18:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Your attempting to point the issue at other editors and not at the edit is very bad faith. You have not answered any of the issues regarding this actual edit, I will add it here so that people can see the actual edit under discussion. Off2riorob (talk) 18:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Rove's name has come up in a number of political scandals. These include the Valerie Plame affair, the Bush White House e-mail controversy and the related dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy, among others. To date, no charges have been filed against Rove for any of his alleged illegal activities.

this is what I edited to...

Rove's name has come up in a number of political scandals, including the Valerie Plame affair, the Bush White House e-mail controversy and the related dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy .

It is a good edit made in good faith. Off2riorob (talk) 18:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I feel it's important to add (for the casual reader) that Off2riorob fails to discuss any of the points I have just made, and in my view, for the obvious reason that they are facts, which is what Wikipedia is supposed to be all about. Jusdafax 18:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Jusdafax please discuss content, not contributors. I was advised to bring this here by another neutral editor and await an outside opinion. I advise Off2riorob and you to do the same. Soxwon (talk) 21:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Your link provided to support this opinionated edit in the lede of the article, this one is an opinion piece with nothing of any weight to support your edit. I also note that your edit has no support here at all. Off2riorob (talk) 19:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Absent any word in a RS of an 'actual investigation aimed at Rove, the sentences are on the order of "John Doe has never said when he stopped beating his wife." Clinton does not have such a list of claimed crimes sans any investigations, to be sure, and so Rove ought not.

To resume...

The investigation of Rove and the 2006 attorney firings is ongoing. (The link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/14/AR2009051402816.html ) as this Washington Post article (Prosecutor To Interview Rove Today, Sources Say) notes.

Then there is http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/15/rove.attorneys/index.html this CNN reference on Rove's interview the day after. For clarity, I paste some of this below:

• Rove questioned about U.S. attorney firings - Story Highlights

• NEW: Karl Rove questioned for 3½-plus hours on 2006 firings of U.S. attorneys

• NEW: Rove's attorney: "He intends to fully cooperate with the investigation"

• Justice Department report found that some firings were influenced by politics

• Special prosecutor trying to determine if any ex-Bush officials broke any laws.

Again, the Karl Rove Wikipedia article lede final sentence, which I now strongly suggest returning to the lede as timely, informative and meets WP:RS requirements, reads:

To date, no charges have been filed against Rove for any of his alleged illegal activities. Rove continues under investigation by special prosecutor Nora Dannehy.

In August, Rove was named in a U.S. House investigation. "Harriet Miers, then White House counsel, said in testimony June 15 to House Judiciary Committee investigators that Rove was "very agitated" over U.S. Attorney David Iglesias "and wanted something done about it."

• The link: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/08/12/2009-08-12_george_bush_adviser_karl_roves_role_in_firing_us_attorney_detailed_in_newly_rele.html

• NBC covered the story. The link: http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/archive/NATLKarl-Rove-to-be-Interviewed-in-Criminal-Probe.html?corder=regular

Conclusion: Rove continues under investigation by both Ms. Dannehy and U.S. Congress. He has neither been charged nor cleared. Jusdafax 00:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

It is still not worthy of inclusion in the lede. If he is still under investigation add it to the body of the article with all the details, where it can be rebutted and defended as desired or required. Off2riorob (talk) 00:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Again, Disagree. Without any further discussion from other viewpoints (the silence is deafening), I will feel free to add the sentence back into the lede. I believe I have demonstrated good faith, WP:RS and the right to do so. I also waited ten days to see if there was further commentary. Time to move forward. Standing by for final comments, if any. Jusdafax 03:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The reason it is deafeningly quiet here is that a few people have commented, it is not a big issue, a few words in the lede, please don't relate the silence to support for your edit. It is a detail and not worthy of inclusion in the lede. Whether you have shown good faith or not is irrelevant, the edit is poor, it does not even explain itself, it does not belong in the lede at all. Off2riorob (talk) 04:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I continue to wait for voices other than Off2riorob. It appears that my sources meet WP:RS by any reasonable standard. Jusdafax 05:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Off2riorob, I don't see it belonging in the lede. I disagree with your interpretation that in absence of other contributors, your view should prevail. He could make the same argument as I don't see anyone flocking to support EITHER view. As above, it runs dangerously close to questions like "So when did you stop beating your wife?". I feel that biographies of living people are a case where extra care needs to be taken, especially when they are figures who are so potentially divisive. Putting it in the lede gives it undue weight - I'm not suggesting that it be removed, so arguments about the validity of the statement are irrelevant. 152.91.9.219 (talk) 04:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

You cannot say that Karl Rove has 'alleged illegal activities' unless he has been formally charged with a crime and he has never been charged with any crime. In the U.S., one is presumed innocent and therefore all charges are 'alleged.' But you can't allege anything without the charges. Rove is not being investigated for criminal activity. He's never been charged with any crime. To say that his name came up in scandals is fine because it did, but a scandal is not the same at all as criminal behavior that begets criminal charges. The article must be sensitive to the fact that this is a biography of a living person and therefore Rove has rights under U.S. and international law, not to mention the questionable morality of hurling false accusations against someone just to advance a petty personal agenda. Off2riorob is entirely correct within Wikipedia policy in removing the line since it bears absolutely no merit.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE: As we now have a whole raft of new problems on the Karl Rove page, including section blanking and baseless formal accusations to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring by Malke 2010 (no action taken by admins) of edit warring, the above original issue has gotten lost. Soxwon states on the Karl Rove talk page that he has requested full page protection as a result of edit warring by Malke 2010 and Off2riorob. Is there an uninvolved admin willing to step in, or does this just quietly get marked off as 'unresolved'? Jusdafax 07:09, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Chhe is edit warring, and along with Jusdafax they are a tag team which is a violation of Wikipedia policy. They are like bullies on the playground. There is no page blanking on the Karl Rove page. There is only removal of copyright material, which after discussion, a consensus was reached to remove it. Chhe restored it and then added "references," which only refer to the copyrighted material. Didn't change one word of the copyright violation. And the other is the vandalism by Chhe where he inserts the line that Karl Rove was made to testify about Don Siegleman which is not true. Even after being told there is no such investigation, Chhe insisted on restoring the line in an effort to maintain the negative POV. Jusdafax refuses to discuss edits that will in any way change the negative POV on the Karl Rove page which as it stands right now reads as a scandal sheet. He immediately accuses people of having "an agenda" if they don't agree with him. It's so blatantly obvious he's the one with the agenda.

We can't make progress on the page without Chhe constantly flying in to revert all new edits. Their tag team hounds editors who make new contributions. The harassment of accusations and the incivility by Jusdafax are an everyday event. Jusdax does not engage in discussion. He is turning the Karl Rove article into a battleground in violation of Wikipedia policy. He believes that only he is allowed to determine the content, acting as though he is the owner of the article, (making statements such as, "I wrote that line," which again, is a violation of Wikipedia policy. Any contribution that threatens the extant negative POV is cause for Jusdafax to report to this noticeboard. He is uncivil in his comments, as is so obvious by his posts, for which he has been warned in the past. His latest diatribe is on the edit warring noticeboard where I appropriately addressed Chhe's edit warring. Neither of these individuals is willing to contribute to the reduction of the negative POV or add information that is legitimately relevant to the biography. They both want the page to remain exactly as it is. The smallest edit prompts thousands of words on this page and the Karl Rove talk page, yet they offer no solution. It's just a conversation driven in circles. Jusdafax makes negative statements like, "Here we go again," or "chilling effect" is his latest. Or they both constantly bring up mistakes of the past, which is clear evidence in itself of a refusal to move on, and make progress. Neither of these individuals has ever engaged in civil discussion on the talk page. The only saving grace is that by their own words we know them.Malke 2010 (talk) 09:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Malke 2010's obsessive interest in Karl Rove (a brief look at his edit history shows this, also the extensive material in Rove article Archive 7 and 8), and somehow getting me in hot water (note his heated discussion with and block by admin Black Kite in September), speaks for itself. The idea that I claim ownership of the KR article is pretty rich when one notes that I have made exactly one edit to the article in the past three months. Jusdafax 00:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Editorial Note: I would like to add that the sentence in question is very poorly written, and should probably be re-written for clarity and conciseness. The sentence should read in a way that clearly connects his involvement with the controversies to any ongoing criminal investigations. 65.209.6.2 (talk) 00:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure, any suggestions? In the meantime the sentence in question was deleted sometime ago, so this longstanding open report might as well be closed as stale. Jusdafax 23:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I totally agree with the IP, the sentence that is left is very poorly written, the fact is that Rove has not been convicted of anything at all. I have seen twice recently similar comments removed from article leads for that exact same reason. Off2riorob (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the IP. The sentence should not be rewritten to connect any controversy to criminal investigations. Karl Rove is not under criminal investigation. He has never been under criminal investigation. He was asked to testify about the U.S. attorney firings. He did that. The sentence does not belong at all. Rove has never been the subject of any investigation. The original sentence was put there to make it sound like he was. It was poorly written and with NPOV.Malke 2010 (talk) 13:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Repeated removal of WP:RS info on Gilad Atzmon

The last time this article was brought here there was a consensus to make the Politics section shorter, which was done.

The current issue, as described in detail with quotes from WP:RS is at Talk:Gilad Atzmon#Do sources say criticism of Zionism led to charges of antisemitism?. Drsmoo (who will surely comment below) keeps removing three WP:RS saying Atzmon is called an antisemite for his criticism of Zionism because of his Drsmoo's POV that Azmon is only called one because of his ethno-cultural critiques. (Note an Admin had to delete two Drsmoo attacks against Atzmon on Nov. 21 - 1, 2.) Considering there was an OTRS in the spring about just such biased editing on this biography, hopefully someone will opine about this biased deletion of WP:RS info. CarolMooreDC (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

To begin with, the last time this article was brought here, Carolmooredc completely reverted the edits of the two editors who attempted to help, replacing them with her own edits. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=321642088&oldid=321461856 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=321642476&oldid=321642088

I'm not sure "ethno-cultural critiques" is a good euphamism for Atzmon's statements that: "Jewish ideology is driving our planet into a catastrophe and we must stop.”, "Bush behaved Jewishly" and "Jewish ideology and Nazi ideology were very similar.” Which are the kinds of statements that have earned him regular accusations of antisemitism (that being the point of contention here.) The reason CarolmooreDC's provided sources were removed is that A. The Aaranovitch article, while a reliable source, in no way states what CarolmooreDC's interpretation of it claims it states, every example/quote provided by the article regarding antisemitism, is a statement regarding Judaism; the same is true for the Scottsman article. The only source that said Atzmon had been accused of antisemitism for his statements on Zionism was from the opinion of an editor/interviewer at the Gisborne Herald. A tiny local newspaper with a circulation of about 8,000. That is against the Wikipedia rules on reliable sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#News_organizations "In articles about living persons, only material from high-quality news organizations may be used." Citing papers such as the New York Times and the Times of London as examples, and "An opinion piece is reliable only as to the opinion of its author, not as a statement of fact" The opinion of the conductor of that interview is included in the politics section. Drsmoo (talk) 05:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

People can read the facts at the link. And the editor who shortened it left out almost all the neutral info and it was two to one negative info, despite lots of WP:RS neutral info, which is one of the reasons the article got locked last time around. CarolMooreDC (talk) 11:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

FYI. I have tried a mediation with Drsmoo, but after weeks of personal attacks on me for trying to make the article NPOV, now followed by yet another illustration of Drsmoo's hatred of Atzmon (illustrated by these two hostile diffs he refused to remove and an admin had to: 1, 2) I think I should just delete this silly BLPN thread where he's got me trying to prove there are accusations vs. Atzmon.

I probably should just go straight for a complaint about re: BLP Dispute tag regarding Unsourced or poorly sourced controversial claims about living people are strictly forbidden on all Wikipedia pages. In addition, all articles must be neutral, verifiable, encyclopedic, and free of original research. Editors who continue to introduce unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living people will be blocked from editing per Wikipedia policy. Advice on what to do welcome. 23:44, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you do have to prove your statements. If you can find a reliable source that states that Atzmon has been accused of antisemitism for his statements on Zionism, than it will be included. I recommend that you actually see a noticeboard discussion through to completion, rather than jumping from noticeboard to noticeboard to mediation to noticeboard as soon as there is any discussion. Drsmoo (talk) 00:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

<backdent>I feel Drsmoo's hostility towards the subject (esp. as mentioned above in his recent talk page edits which an admin just had to revert because he refused to) and towards anyone trying to do an NPOV edit of the article is so severe that I have cataloged various editors' complaints about him at Wikiquette Alerts. Perhaps that is what I should have brought here instead of the one issue which mediation had not been able to resolve yet. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The Revised alert focuses on Drsmoo's incivility towards me as advised after the first alert. Let's think positive thoughts Drsmoo will get a good mentor!

Meanwhile, for anyone interested in substantive discussion of this issue, again I present my case at Talk:Gilad Atzmon#Do sources say criticism of Zionism led to charges of antisemitism? If necessary I can repeat it here, with any updates. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

More NPOV, non-WP:OR version of politics section

Rather than start a new thread, I decided to put up a link to revised version of this section correcting what I believe are WP:BLP violations. See this diff which I explained with this edit summary: More NPOV, non-WP:OR version of politics section; use quotes in context of what Secondary Sources say, not editor's WP:OR; per various talk page and noticeboard comments. It is based on comments I have gotten in various places that deals with the WP:OR issue (cherry picked use of Atzmon quotes out of context of what the secondary source said about those comments) and POV issue (not allowing the Swedish Democrats defense of Atzmon in the article), plus a few POV issues. This diff also shows I am NOT trying to delete all negative information about Atzmon, just trying to make the article comply with WP:BLP and WP:RS policies. Note the section still is 2/3 about criticism of Atzmon and his replies, which should satisfy the most strenuous Atzmon hater. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Sheikh Khalid bin Saqr Al Qasimi

The entry for Sheikh Kalid bin Saqr Al Quasimi is completely copied from a blog, ostensibly run by him. The location of the blog is: [2]

It has been created and run by a PR firm, California Strategies to accomplish Sheikh Khalid's political goals of being reinstated as crown prince of Ras Al Khaimah.

None of this information is verifiable by neutral third parties and as such should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucastar78 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a clear cut case of blatant copyright infringement. I've tagged it for speedy deletion. —ShadowRanger ^(talk|stalk) 17:57, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

It is actually the same group putting their private political messages on Wikipedia. They have now simply moved the unverified content to a new entry - Sheikh Khalid bin Saqr Al-Qassimi. It uses the purpose created website, [3], as a neutral third party reference.

The Justice Department Foreign Agent Registration Act records can show that California Strategies, which runs the [4] is hired and paid for by Sheikh Khalid. Here is the document showing that this is the case: [5] This is a clear violation of Wikipedia standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucastar78 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Redirected it to the original page and watchlisted it. I have no doubt whatsoever that the page is a violation of multiple Wikipedia policies, but CSD was denied on the original page (though it will be deleted unless copyright issues are resolved). —ShadowRanger ^(talk|stalk) 16:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Just noting that copyright issues have been resolved by a release at the site. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Tim Kaine

There has been quite a kerfuffle going on over at the Governor of Virginia's article. Themoodyblue has continuously removed Kaine's signature from the infobox, with vague assertions that someone from Kaine's office told him to, because Kaine "doesn't like it", and because it is "illegal" (I can find nothing whatsoever in the Code of Virginia which addresses this issue). After some back-and-forth edit warring, I contacted Themoodyblue on his talk page - this proved fruitless. I then sought input from an impartial party at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography. Warrior4321 replied, but his edits were summarily reverted by Themoodyblue. Road Wizard tried to diffuse the situation by leaving a message on both Themoodyblue's and my talk pages, but not with great success. Themoodyblue has now resorted to personal attacks and legal threats. Frankly, we're at an impasse, and need some uninvolved editors to sort this out. Thanks, faithless (^speak) 20:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The legal threat should be reported, and I have done so. – ukexpat (talk) 21:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Themoodyblue has been blocked for legal threats. – ukexpat (talk) 21:29, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

This is also being discussed on the AN page. The editor first complained, on the article talk page, that the signature came from PAC literature and therefore was not in the public domain. When that went unheeded, he started arguing that posting the facsimile signature was a felony, yet no one could find any citation in support of that claim. He then indicated that he had talked to the governor's office about it, which of course is original research. He's either well-meaning but misguided, or he's trolling. Either way, he engaged in increasingly intimidating behavior, hence the block. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:39, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

• Comment - and are original research which have not been verified to the source's authentication and permission (Tim Kaine). One file claims it is "Own work by uploader, traced by hand from" the other taken from an e-mail. Neither meets the claim for "contains no original authorship" as presented, because they are stolen. Both violate the authenticators copyright. They should be deleted for violating copyright and OR. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 17:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't see that adding someone's signature to an article adds much value, and it certainly has the potential to cause trouble. Brianyoumans (talk) 17:21, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

• • Comment - I traced the SVG from the raster. The signature can't be copyrighted as far as I know. If you could provide another source, I'd be happy to put up a new version. I just trace what's there for me, in good faith. I apologize if I have caused such trouble. Connormah (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

• Signatures are useful to forgers/identity thieves. They are also completely unnecessary to all of our encyclopedia articles about people (versus articles about signatures). Thus, in accordance with the spirit behind Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of personal information, they generally should be deleted from biographic articles on sight. They certainly should not appear in infobox templates as a desired item! That parameter should be eliminated from the infobox posthaste. GRBerry 03:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree with GRB, I see no encyclopedic value whatsoever to including someone's signature on their wikipedia article. It may (or may not) be copyrighted, or public domain, or illegal, or whatever, but including doesn't seem to add anything. Dayewalker (talk) 03:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
• Tim Kaine's office told me the same thing about a year ago. I tried to remove the signature, but someone else reverted and I forgot about it. It is probably a very bad idea to block Themoodyblue (talk · contribs) for the entirely appropriate effort to limit our legal exposure here. causa sui× 00:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

List of male performers in gay porn films - the quintessential BLP nightmare

List of male performers in gay porn films has been nominated for deletion half a dozen times, with BLP concerns being mentioned in every AfD discussion. It has undergone a "clean-up" since the most recent AfD, but this seems to have mainly consisted of adding images and dubious references, which should be unneccesary if the linked articles are properly referenced. The trouble is that many of the linked articles are not properly referenced. I have nominated a few completely unsourced BLPs for deletion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Hawks, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bobby Madison, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christy twins) but the suggestion has been made at AfD discussion to merge them into, guess what, List of male performers in gay porn films.

The completely unsourced BLP of Mark Wolff was recently deleted and removed from the list as a red link. He was restored to the list as a red link with the edit summary "rvt, no reason he shouldn't be included here". The sourcing used is a link to Mark Wolff's own site and a brief piece in a porn industry website, neither of which establishes notability or comes anywhere close to meeting WP:PORNBIO, let alone establishing identity. Perhaps that is a reason not to include the red link. I haven't checked but I believe many, if not most, of the entries on this list would fail WP:PORNBIO.

I'm sure that award winning screenwriter and Lost producer Christian Taylor would be surprised to learn that he has been included on this list. If he were alive, perhaps Bradford Thomas Wagner could confirm that he performed in gay porn films under the name Tim Barnett, since the source used does not clearly do so. I'm sure there are more bad entries life these.

The descriptions are also an issue. Red linked Zach Randall is apparently a "featured performer at Boys-Pissing.com" complete with direct link to the site. The source used for including him in the list is an article from an LGBT porn site directory which is used for a reference for 41 of the entries on the list! Some entries have no description at all, some have multiple sentences mentioning specific companies and awards, not necessarily supported by the references.

Here are two more unsourced BLPs I came across while composing this post: Rick Chase and Rick Donovan. Both have been tagged as unsourced since July 2007. I suggest that this list be trimmed back rather than expanded, leaving only blue links to vetted articles. Someone needs to go through every linked entry on this list and ensure that (a) it links to the correct article, (b) the article is properly sourced, (c) the performer meets the general notability guideline and the WP:PORNBIO guideline. There's quite a bit of work to do here. Perhaps a small working group could be established on a subpage of this noticeboard? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with Delicious carbuncle that this is a disaster; the random second wlink i clicked on is someone else completely, as a quick visit to the reference proved. All the redlinks should be cut out, and the real articles checked for correctness. I have no interest in this subject, but am willing to make a start to help out. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 22:24, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Removing redlinks from lists is a standard policy-supported action that should be stringently enforced in BLP related lists and articles. Similarly, standards for verifiable, reliable sources should be most strictly enforced in all BLP related topics. Thanks for bringing this potential mess to attention. Doc Tropics 22:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Moving through this alarmist thread I'll try to make this brief. my "clean-up"' as Delicious carbuncle terms it has been much more than what is presented. When the last AfD started there was no references on it and I have systematically been sourcing every entry. To indeed show entries are notable I started with the porn notability guidelines by tracking down what awards existed and who got them. Delicious carbuncle dismisses this effort but they have shown a systematic and negative attitude towards me which I continue to see as both detrimental and a form of WP:Wikihounding. I addition to these cleaning up efforts I have also researched every new entry that appears, usually from anons, to verify if they are indeed gay porn actors or vandalism and have dealt with each accordingly. BLP interpretation here is pretty clear - if someone has acted in gay porn films and are male or male-identified, they can be included with sourcing. As clean-up efforts continue and incorporate all the international awards that govern these people I also am reconciling people who have articles that seem to belong in the category to verify if there inclusion on the list and category is supportable. With hundreds of articles an assumption this takes time is correct. Meanwhile Delicious carbuncle started edit-warring to remove an image (from the lede, and if they had their way, the list) of Michale Lucas from User:David Shankbone, people they apparently don't approve, or something. But no we have an AfD which will again be a spin of wheels but oh well. As for redlinks? We do indeed want those as "helpful" folks simply add wikilinks to the article we have instead of realizing it's better to show we don't have an article. This is done for ... wait for it ... BLP concerns. So now we'll sort out an AfD, much drama has been raised for nothing, and regular editing will ensue by folks who have our readers interest at heart.
For those wondering ... here we can see that Mark Wolff likely shouldn't have been deleted after all but certainly has loads of coverage by the industry newsource of record; Christian Taylor listing was disambiguated - it was quite easy actually; Bradford Thomas Wagner, as noted, is dead, ergo not a BLP issue; and those unsourced BLPs, not the lists' problem. What a colossal waste of time when simply doing the editing would have achieved the same result. If some needs to be disambiguated? Why not just do it? And CyberSocket actually writes about gay porn all the time, being listed in their annual top lists indeed denotes notability enough for a list for now. This keen interest in getting rid of anything that doesn't have an article seems like a surefire way to ensure that even more stubs will be created when many of those folks would be better off in a list. -- Banjeboi 05:20, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Not a colossal waste of time, because posting it here brought at least one (me and maybe two (Doc) new users to the list to help. Also not a waste of time because BLP concerns are important and need to be raised. Certainly doing the edits is easy, maybe easier than coming here, but this is a place a number of people in the community look at as a place to find (and correct) potential trouble. I do and did. Doc, apparently, too. So, i say "Thanks" to DC for alerting us. As well as, obviously, "Thanks" to Banjeboi for continuing to correct these troublesome entries. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 11:06, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you could please put your accusations against me aside for the moment and confine yourself to discussing the BLP issues here (you are welcome to make your accusations elsewhere). As this ANI thread shows, it would have been difficult for me to "simply' do the editing needed myself. To focus on just one issue here, the inclusion of red links is not desirable in a list dealing largely with living people and of this nature. People who are not male gay porn performers are likely to be offended if they are included in such a list. I've already documented one such case, so this is not a hypothetical. You have reverted the removal of one red link by Doc Tropic. If this person is notable, would it not be more sensible to simply create a stub article and link it from this list? Linked entries should stand on their own without the need for further references, which would obviate the discussion about the appropriateness of "references" which lead to the purchase page of gay porn sites. If these were unsourced red links that would be one thing, but the situation as it stands (with unreliable sourcing of claims about living people) is arguably in violation of the BLP policy. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:11, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

LindsayH, you're right of course, any extra help is definitely a help. What I should have stated was that any of these issues was easily resolvable but Delicious carbuncle has insisted on taking a very long route of edit-warring about an image to finally state the had BLP concerns. I'm glad that the BLP issues are being addressed but do wish it was without all the misleading dramatics and inflamed concern. Simply state the issue and work with other editors. As for Delicious carbuncle's new hypothesis - a porn star would be fine with being included. Someone who is "not male gay porn performer" or more accurately someone who is not "male and has acted in gay porn films" shouldn't be on the list, I would hope that is obvious. Redlinks are welcome on lists and are actually there to prevent mislinking, Once they are vetted it's easy to see who we do or don't have articles for - that's why we include them. If they aren't there? people add them, to the wrong person. We'd rather disambiguate them so it is obvious their only inclusion on Wikipedia is on the list. And which case you've documented I'm not sure but it could have been simply handled by mentioning it on the talk page - "gee we need to relook at ____, something seems amiss." As for that reversion you note - it seems likely we got the AfD wrong. But my job isn't to fix every entry the list is connected to but to clean-u the list. You may have noted I also added refs when I re-added so the entry was a bit more clear as belonging. And RandyBlue is in fact a notable amateur porn site that produces ... gay porn films. Those references that, for example "Jack Foo" indeed has his own page at the site absolves BLP issues that we are listing Jack Foo as a male who performs in gay porn films. A site showing he does exactly that is perfectly acceptable. It would be nice to show more that the entry indeed is seen as needing inclusion but we aren't there yet. First everything there needs to be cleaned up, then we add context of who meets which various requires of Porn and GNG notability. Then we have actual ground to state here is what an entry needs to be included or not, as is most of all the articles and listing are only part way there and all of the articles have been targeted in various ways removing content. Speaking of which, almost every case you've brought up, possible all of them, you simply been wrong - or at least mistaken - and a bit of research shows we generally had it right. This echos my experience on other lists that needed clean-up. Yes, they were vandalized but surprisingly just a bit of clean-up generally fixes any concerns, and once cleaned-up the vandalism ebbs away as it's easy to detect what is or is not correct. -- Banjeboi 20:21, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

if they have Wikipedia articles and the Wikipedia articles support the listing, it is not a BLP violation. If there is debate about the inclusion, the place to discuss it best would be on the article for the person involved. The question is the many redlinks. If any are red because Wikipedia articles were deleted, then clearly those names must be deleted here also. But for most, an assertion of an awards is made--if these awards are considered sufficient to justify their notability (I can not tell that , for this is not one of my usual subjects), then by our usual practices they could stay while the articles are being written--but I could also see making this list an exception and removing them until that time. I see no discussion of BLP issues on the last few months of the talk page, so I suggest that raising this is perhaps not really warranted--certainly it is not justified to say they are not resolvable. DGG ( talk ) 22:11, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem with trying to set some rule like - delete redlink if the article was nuked at AfD is that we often get it wrong, I likely could have saved Mark Wolff if I had seen it as he does seem to fly over GNG, if not also PORN. Those discussions live or die if someone like myself knows where, and has the time to look. Anyone notable before 1995 or so has an impressively uphill battle as most of the publications that did cover them aren't online, so only having some massive vault and the resources to access it would have saved it. The industry has greatly changed but almost all actors who did more than a dozen movies - and note most of the gay porn articles that list movies were chopped down to six or less entries (sigh) - appeared in numerous light porn magazines, photo spreads and did both softball and indepth interviews for them. They also did mainstream gay press but most of those are also offline. As time allows I'm happy to give an insightful opinion on any of these issues and whether a good article as a stand-alone is possible. However I see a list as solving a number of issues including that our readers who want this information will basically get what they're looking for without having dozens of stubs that linger unloved. When an editor is inspired to launch a new article we can see what potential it has. until then a list is a great way to keep it all in perspective. -- Banjeboi 22:29, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

DGG, I don't think anyone here has suggested that the problems are unresolvable. In fact, I suggested a working group so that this could be tackled cooperatively (including the linked articles) rather than the edit-revert dance that is happening now. It should be clear from the discussions on the talk page why I didn't raise the issue there. It would not have been productive or gotten other editors involved. As for the red links, WP:SAL advises "Don't use a list as a "creation guide" containing a large number of redlinked unwritten articles". Clearly if the article has been deleted on notability grounds the red link should be removed. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindenet) The list looks basically sound to me, since entries are referenced. But the redlinks clearly cannot remain as they are. I'd suggest we need to:

1. remove the redlinks where the article has been deleted on notability grounds - in these cases there is currently a consensus that the subject does not merit an article, so we should certainly not be inviting one. If AfD got it wrong, then DRV is available - meanwhile we have to write respecting current consensus, not ignoring it and presuming it was wrong.
2. In other cases, we either need to remove the redlinks, or pipe them to Joe MacSmith (porn star). Otherwise there is a high risk that the next article that gets written under that name is a different Joe MacSmith. We know that's a real risk, because it had already happened in numerous cases here, and it is a regular complaint in OTRS that names are wrongly linked to a different individual. In the case of porn, that's not a BLP risk we can take.

Such moves should satisfy BLP and allow the article to exist without undue interference with its purpose.--Scott Mac (Doc) 22:49, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Forcing redlinks, on just this or just porn articles, to a default disambiguate seems like a really bad idea. Is this a suggestion from the OTRS folks? How widespread is this actually and why can't simply resolving each cases as it comes up - like we seem to do with everything else - not work instead. This may be well intended but again feels more alarmist. Is there some documentation on this being a major OTRS issue? -- Banjeboi 03:09, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

You may find that people who don't work in the industry are more cautious about mistakenly labelling someone as a porn performer. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:43, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

That seems quite disingenuous. No one is adding ___ is a performer in gay male porn on BLPs as this entire alarmist thread implies. Instead we are talking about wikilinks that go to the wrong articles and are easily cleaned-up that is being addressed. had you bothered to mention this on the talkpage likely it would have been a lot less dramatic and achieved the exact same result. Sweeping together multiple clean-up issues does not change that these are ordinary clean-up issues. If you have evidence that someone is maliciously adding is misleading wikilinks knowingly violating BLPs that would definitely be cause for alarm. But this is a simple clean-up issue and likely should be handled as such. In part I find this whole thread discouraging as it takes away energy from dealing with more pressing actual BLP violation s that are complex and deserve attention. FWIW I have committed to getting every listing confirmed we have the correct person linked. -- Banjeboi 13:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment - what I have said about this list applies equally to List of actresses in the MILF porn genre, which seems rather similar in structure. Compare either of these to List of pornographic actresses by decade which is simply a stand alone list. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:43, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Those too should likely be addressed on each lists' talkpage and maybe at the Porn wikiproject. -- Banjeboi 13:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

• This looks like a very bad BLP situation indeed. Redlinks absolutely must be removed from the list. causa sui× 16:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Marcel Diallo

• I've just restored some disputed content to this article. It looks to me like it was properly sourced and only removed so that there would not be any negative content in the article, but maybe I'm wrong, so I'm reporting it here to get more eyes on it. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:49, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

A diff would help since there may have been various revisions since you posted. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:10, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Richard Goldstone

Goldstone is/was a member of Human Rights Watch as evident from HRW's 2008 list and bio of Goldstone mission members. It is unclear whether he is still a member of HRW or not, and if not - when and under what circumstances he left.

Professor Gerald Steinberg of the Jerusalem-based NGO Monitor and journalist Melanie Phillips said that judge Goldstone was a member of the Human Rights Watch board, resigning from it only after the UN Fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict began (see also primary source of Steinberg's words).

Is it OK to leave the Steinberg/Phillips statement, provided that it is not stated as fact but attributed to them and sourced to Haaretz and Spectator respectively? --Sceptic from Ashdod ^(talk) 09:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe it is, as long as you explicitly attribute it to them, and don't take any POV-ish stance on the issue. Aditya Ex Machina 08:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

If two WP:RS says he is no longer a member, use first sources to say he was and latter to say he is not. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Both NGO Monitor and Melanie Phillips tread a uniformly Likudist line, never criticising their ideological mentors. It should still be possible to trust facts they publish - except perhaps in cases such as this. We don't know if Goldstone's relationship with HRW has changed, but we can't rely on POV sources that seem to specialise in personal smears 86.159.67.125 (talk) 23:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Tahir Abbas

Recently, this edit added information to the Tahir Abbas article alleges plagiarism based on this source. User Drtahir007 (talk · contribs), who claims here to be the subject of the article (or a colleague of same), has attempted several times to remove the information, but it has been restored.

Although the information is sourced, I believe this person qualifies as being relatively unknown, and WP:NPF applies. That policy requires in part that "potentially damaging information [be] corroborated by multiple, highly reliable sources...". At present, the information in question is single-sourced. I have removed the content in question, but suggest a further review of the situation by those more familiar with policy. Thank you. -- Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 01:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I must strenuously disagree that WP:NPF applies here. This is a much-abused policy: it is typically applied as "well I've never heard of him". Abbas is a very willing public figure, happy to give interviews to the press whenever asked. His career depends entirely on having gained the expertise and recognition that brings reporters and others to go to him when they need a source on the topics he writes about. In this there is no doubt he has been successful. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:57, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

My views on this aren't as 'strong' as Nomoskedasticity above, but I agree that Tahir Abbas does not fall under the criteria of the 'relatively unknown people' whom WP:NPF is supposed to protect. Aditya Ex Machina 08:28, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, FWIW there is another source now on this issue. I have also framed it using language "was reported to" rather than bare assertions. All together, this ought to be sufficient to assuage concerns. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

As of now, the content in question should be kept on the article because a second reliable source has been added. Netalarmtalk 20:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thank you. -- Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 14:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I blocked Drtahir007 (talk · contribs) indef for continuing disruption. Secret ^account 15:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Robert Campagnola

Robert Campagnola (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) -- need a clean from unsourced and self promotional material. Wikid^as© 10:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Explain your need more clearly, please. Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

It is a problem with sources. Wikid^as© 08:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

need some BLP opinions on Diana Napolis

the article is about someone who reportedly suffers from a "delusional disorder", was charged with 'stalking' steven spielberg and also charged with making death threats against jennifer love hewett. the issue is that i dont believe the article should link to her personal blog, which does probably qualify as her official site, but adds no encyclopedic content. i believe that linking her site might have a deleterious effect on her mental health as 'legitimizing' rantings via a link from the encyclopedia might further propagate potentially delusional ideations. please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Diana_Napolis#linking_her_homepage and comment on whether this is a policy or editorial issue, and whether linking her site is in the best (or any) interest of the encyclopedia. Theserialcomma (talk) 14:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

[redacted] Hipocrite (talk) 16:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

what would ever make you think that i'm diana napolis? that makes no sense. if i were, i'd just take down the blog, and then the link would be removed as it'd be dead. and what would ever make you think that you can attempt to WP:OUT an editor, even if it's a ridiculous failure to out me? it appears that this situation might require admin intervention due to probable sockpuppetry and insane accusations. i believe that hipcrite is probably a sock of someone. i'll look into this more. Theserialcomma (talk) 17:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems that if you are going to have a whole article filled with allegations about a minor figure, at least you should people a chance to see their viewpoint. What is done with other figures accused of crimes who put up their own pages? I see for example a link to a Leonard Peltier advocacy page and Jonathan Pollard's website. She should be treated the same, with link allowed to stand. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, we've gone from satanic ritual abuse, to how to handle mentally unstable biographical subjects, to outing, to accusations of sockpuppetry, in the first three posts. If the individual is notable they belong in the encyclopedia. This particular individual seems fairly notable for doing a number of strange, scandalous things that got her a lot of media coverage: being one of the more prominent accusers in the satanic child abuse witch hunts, and stalking celebrities. We generally don't include unproven allegations, unless the allegations themselves are noteworthy. In this case it's well-documented incidents and a guilty plea resulting in jail time. This being an encyclopedia rather than a courtroom, external links are to share encyclopedic information, not to give article subjects a chance to argue their case. Normally a bio subject's official blog / site is a valid external link, particularly if it is in part the subject of the article. However, there are sometimes good reasons to leave them off - hate or defamation sites, copyright violations, etc. I'm on the fence here. I see no reason to protect her from herself, but I question how much it adds to an understanding of things to kee the link. Wikidemon (talk) 17:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

• i've posted about this situation to WP:ANI [[6]] because i think the whole situation requires more scrutiny Theserialcomma (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Coming back from ANI on a tangentially related issue, Template:Satanic ritual abuse (linked to at the bottom of the Napolis article) has led me to some serious BLP violations, especially under the "Notable People" section. I've removed a couple of egregious examples - check my contrib history, I'm not going to highlight them. Others should review these articles for poorly sourced allegations of abuse and support of said abuse. I think some of this may be residue from User:ResearchEditor and his merry band of socks. Skinwalker (talk) 02:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for noticing and taking care of things! - Wikidemon (talk) 04:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD and BLP1E

The entire entry is undergoing an AfD and the main argument put forth for deletion is that this is supposedly a clear case of BLP1E. Can someone here explain how that is so. I've suggested at the AfD that those making the argument come here to explain it since at the AfD people are simply listing the policy. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 17:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Nick Collins (composer) and Click Nilson

Two biographies recently started by the same author, about possibly non-notable persons. Given that their names are anagrams of one another, they were born in the same year, work in the same field, and both are associated with the University of Sussex (though not mentioned in Nilson's article, the info is online [7]) I am suspicious that Nick Collins (composer) and Click Nilson are the same person. I've left a message on the author's page [8], to no response yet. Another pair of eyes would be appreciated.... 99.155.206.57 (talk) 23:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Click may be a stage name of Nick Collins, though we'd need a WP:RS to say so. Looks like same guy in photos. I'd say get rid of Click and put a note on Nick's web page with link to article asking for more info, including WP:RS that they are the same guy. Article has potential and guy may be WP:Notable soon enough. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Edzard Ernst

Resolved

 – Vandalism reverted. MastCell ^Talk 17:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The entire first section of this article is written in a biased and potentially libelous manner. It is opinionated and unreferenced, clearly being based on the author's personal beliefs. The contents include personal attacks on the subject's character and qualifications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poonster (talk • contribs)

Ah. That's pretty clear vandalism - anyone can remove it, and I've gone ahead and done so. I'll keep an eye on the IP in question. MastCell ^Talk 17:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.P.Roos

J P Roos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This article now has a note claiming that it contains no references which is not true. I ask that the note be removed as I don't know how to do it myself. It had been vandalized by some malicious person but I have now corrected it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jokepoet (talk • contribs) 18:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This article is referenced entirely to two books, with no inline citations. I think it really needs to be referenced better. Martin451 (talk) 18:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Maurice Clemmons and Mike Huckabee

Please note that Clemmons, a convicted felon who received executive clemency from Huckabee when the latter was governor of Arkansas nine years ago, has been announced as the prime suspect in the killing of four police officers in the Seattle area. However, he has not been arrested or formally charged, let alone convicted. I believe inclusion of this information in either of these two biographies violates WP:BLP. I have reverted at Huckabee's bio but haven't taken action yet on Clemmons' bio, and would like to hear opinions from other editors more experienced in these matters. Please advise. Skoal. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This is not a BLP issue as far as Clemmons is concerned as he was killed by police. The fact that he has not been arrested or charged is mute if he is dead. Given the coverage I think a small note is ok on Huckabee's page. Martin451 (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Or moot... – ukexpat (talk) 21:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

While it's not a BLP issue for Clemmons, it remains an issue for Huckabee whatever the page. I'm not saying we shouldn't mention Huckabee on Clemmons page but rather just reminding editors that BLP issues remain possible for both pages Nil Einne (talk) 01:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Lucas Neill

This Australian soccer/football player was involved in controversial play @ 2006 World Cup, reported in International career section of article. Australian fans have inserted inflammatory to POV language. I've attempted to edit for NPOV. Back and forth for over one year. Since 11/25 two editors have added and endorsed addition of Australian coach's criticism of officiating, removing counterbalancing info. Would like this resolved. No shorter overview possible. If interested, please examine history. Unfortunately, it's lengthy. Have removed coaches criticism, leaving only description of play.

Tapered (talk) 00:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Category: Islamic terrorism

Is it ok to list Anwar al-Awlaki in the category "Islamic terrorism" (note: this is not "Islamic terrorist"), where:

1. he served as VP for an organization that a FBI agent testified was a “front organization to funnel money to terrorists.”
2. investigators believe he knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance.
3. his name was placed on an early version of what is now the federal terror watch list.
4. his name was on a list of 100 prisoners whose release was sought by al Qaida-linked militants.
5. FBI agents have identified al-Awlaki as a known, important "senior recruiter for al Qaeda".
6. the U.S. Undersecretary of Homeland Security for Intelligence and Analysis said he "targets US Muslims with radical online lectures encouraging terrorist attacks."
7. according to author Jarret Brachman he is a major influence on radical English-speaking jihadis internationally.
8. terrorism consultant Evan Kohlmann calls him "one of the principal jihadi luminaries for would-be homegrown terrorists. His fluency with English, his unabashed advocacy of jihad and mujahideen organizations, and his Web-savvy approach are a powerful combination."

--Epeefleche (talk) 01:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is a link to the catagory so that people can have a look there to help consider.. Category:Islamic terrorism Off2riorob (talk) 21:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

EP, he definitely belongs in the category. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 22:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

What do sources not at war with Muslim fundamentalists say about him? 86.159.67.125 (talk) 23:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

More specifically do any of the neutral, non-advocacy sources like newspapers and wire services used in the article or elsewhere call him an "Islamic terrorist." A News.Google search of Islamic terrorist and [http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=%22Islamic+terrorism%22+Anwar+al-Awlaki Islamic terrorism and his name did not show any such neutral sources. When, say, two or three do, go for it. CarolMooreDC (talk) 23:50, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

As noted before, the category is not "Islamic terrorist". Rather, it is the overarching category "Islamic terrorism". Which category as has been pointed out above (if one follows the link): "is for topics related to both proven or suspected cases of terrorism or violence significantly motivated by beliefs attributed to Islam is some form." emphasis added.

The comment two above this seems to suggest that if the US indicates that someone is suspected of activity related to terrorism that is not helpful because the US is at war with Muslim fundamentalists; I don't think that it a view that most people would agree with.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Frederick Henderson

• Frederick Henderson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Need some editors to watch this article because of this: [9] (blog post about a Facebook post, probable hoax). It has been added to the article once already. Might want to watch the article title "Sarah Henderson" as well to make sure that's not created. Thanks. Evil saltine (talk) 02:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Pete Townshend review

Resolved

it would be enormously helpful if uninvolved BLP editors could have a look at the Pete_Townshend#Other_notes section of the article to ascertain whether it's in line with Wikipedia policies. many of the links and "annotations" seem pretty sensationalized. Sssoul (talk) 08:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Just taking a quick look, I'd say if it's a dead (and not all that important/notable) link or if it doesn't specifically mention him, it shouldn't be there. CarolMooreDC (talk) 00:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

thanks for your input. i've cleared out the whole linkfarm now. Sssoul (talk) 11:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Bruce Reyes-Chow

• Bruce Reyes-Chow (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Reyes-chow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Article appears to have been edited by subject of the article that may border what is allowable in the guideline set forth in WP:AUTO#IFEXIST; furthermore, the editor does not appear to be removing vandalism per WP:BLPEDIT. I am unsure if there is any violation, but it might be worth noting. Here is a list of the user's edits. // RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 12:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I doubt he's heard of all the alphabet soup you cite. I've never heard of it. The article is a bit spammy, but it is sourced and fairly neutral. Can't see any harm here. You could report it to Conflict of Interest Noticeboard if you are concerned.--Scott Mac (Doc) 12:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Jim Inhofe

Resolved

A couple of editors have tried to insert this statement into the Jim Inhofe article:

Inhofe has a history of making inflammatory and incorrect claims about the science of climate change.

"Senator Inhofe on Climate Change". RealClimate. 2005-01-10.

Real Climate is a blog and it is my understanding that blogs are never allowed as a source for BLP. Could we get a ruling on this? Much appreciated, Madman (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Experienced editors should know better than to source material to a weblog, even one as “respected” (har har) as RealClimate. WVBluefield (talk) 15:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Blogs aren't the issue, RC is a publication by recognized experts and is thus allowable. Gamaliel (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Self published sources and multi user blogs are not allowed under BLP policy. WVBluefield (talk) 19:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I should note that another user said that the source provided does not make the claim which was written. Richard (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks like this proposed edit goes a bit far to me. It would be acceptable to say 'according to the RealClimate blog, Inhofe has a history of making inflammatory claims...', but to simply state it seems POV. It may well be true that he has a history of making inflammatory and incorrect claims - indeed, looking at the article, that appears to be the case - but we can't just say it without decent sourcing, and this blog is not a good enough source for such a contentious statement. Robofish (talk) 14:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that the editors who were so insistent to put this into the article (knowing full well the prohibited nature of doing so) have settled on using Chris Mooney as a source to represent Inhofe’s critics. A wise move as he is both notable and meets the WP:RS criteria. WVBluefield (talk) 15:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Richard Lindzen

Criticisms that the film The Great Global Warming Swindle received are being inserted into the article since Lindzen was in the film for 45 seconds. All of the referenced sources that could be defined as reliable deal solely with the movie, and the sources which mix criticisms of both the move and Lindzen’s role in it are self published and blogs, and not WP:RS.

Self published and blogs being used to add negative information on a subject is not allowed, and material not directly related to the subject, especially when critical, is also a violation of BLP. WVBluefield (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Would someone please come look at this, two editors seem rather insistent on putting in non RS material. WVBluefield (talk) 19:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I have protected this article for three days to stop the edit warring. Anyone should feel free to unprotect as this discussion warrants. Or a discussion at Talk:Richard Lindzen if that ever gets started. - 2/0 (cont.) 19:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The BLP claim is rather spurious since the issue isn't personal or related to the person. Its a description of a movie that Lindzen was involved with. Since the movie was outside the mainstream, and since NPOV requires that the mainstream view on it is mentioned on minority issues, the added description of the movie is necessary. The two SPS's that WV is talking about, is from recognized experts on the topic - and these have been chosen from the article about the movie. The first is by Houghton who has written textbooks on the subject, and the second is from the Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society, so they are clearly reliable sources on the subject of evaluating the films scientific merit.

An alternative has been proposed: To remove mention of the movie entirely. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Unless the criticism is of Lindzen’s participation in the movie then it not acceptable for inclusion into his biography. You also failed to mention that the only source directly critical of Lindzen’s participation was a blog. WVBluefield (talk) 20:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, WV, that criticism of the film is not germane to the article, unless Lindzen was actually involved in writing/directing/financing the movie. I haven't seen it, but according to your comments he was only interviewed. So, criticism of the movie is off-topic for this biography.

That being said, I would nonetheless support removing mention of the film altogether in the Lindzen article, particularly if he is only on for "45 seconds". Madman (talk) 20:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Removal of all mention is probably the best option. Alternatively we could tag on a description of the film such as "polemical".JQ (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Another vote for removing mention of the Swindle video. Peripheral to Lindzen at best. Pete Tillman (talk) 20:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I could go for removal as well. WVBluefield (talk) 21:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see how this is a BLP issue. It may be undue weight (I don't think so), but that can be discussed on the article talk page. -Atmoz (talk) 20:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Its a BLP issue because the sources that are reliable don’t mention Lindzen, and the only one that does criticize his involvement is a blog. WVBluefield (talk) 21:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Lindzen was in the film. Fact. Houghton said the film was scientific crap (I'm paraphrasing, but he didn't say many nice things about it, if any). Fact. Both are can be reliably sourced. The fact that Houghton didn't mention Lindzen doesn't change the fact that Lindzen was in a knowingly in a film that was scientifically wrong. And that's why it should be in his bio. -Atmoz (talk) 21:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

“The fact that Houghton didn't mention Lindzen doesn't change the fact that Lindzen was in a knowingly in a film that was scientifically wrong”, is the classic definition of guilt by association. You are taking two sources, one saying Lindzen was in the film, and another saying it was no good and synthesizing a conclusion that is not supported by either one of the source by itself: Lindzen is bad for being in the film, a definite BLP no no. Since no one (reliable) criticized Lindzen for being in the movie, criticisms of the movie belongs in its own article, not Lindzen’s. WVBluefield (talk) 22:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Fine. Add [10] to make it non-OR. "They [including Lindzen, mentioned in previous sentence] present intentionally or otherwise through selective editing, grossly simplified and often disingenuous and counter-factual arguments and quotes." Jones D., Watkins A., Braganza K., and Coughlan M. (2007), Bull. Aust. Meteor. Ocean. Soc., 20(3), p.63-72. -Atmoz (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Your source does nothing but confirm that Lindzen was in the film and that his, along with the other 4 climate experts interviewed may have had their interviews taken out of context ... no criticism of Lindzen though. WVBluefield (talk) 15:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought we had decided to remove mention of the movie. In any case, Atmoz, you cannot state that just because Lindzen was in the movie that this opens the biography article up to every critique of the movie that's out there. Madman (talk) 23:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know who agreed to that. And I never said that. You're 0/2. -Atmoz (talk) 00:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

From a neutral bystander: I'm not sure this is a BLP issue - I don't think the proposed additions violate that policy - but I don't think they belong in the article either. The criticism of the film, while well-sourced, is not directly relevant to Lindzen. Anyone who wants to know more about the film can just click on the link to The Great Global Warming Swindle and read the criticism of it there. It isn't necessary to include it in this article; if you want, call it 'the controversial documentary...' or something like that, but it doesn't need any more comment than that. Robofish (talk) 14:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

That sounds fair, perhaps all thats needed is a link to the film somewhere in his body of works or something to that effect. WVBluefield (talk) 15:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, Robofish. Wikilinks are what makes Wikipedia writing so easy -- you don't have to explain everything in every article. Madman (talk) 17:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Arham Aftab

Resolved

 – Hoax/vandalism article deleted

Simply put, this "Bio" is a complete rip from Mike Portnoy's Bio; and, most certainly cannot be verified.

• • Mike Portnoy
    
    • Pre-Dream Theater history
      
    • Influences
      
      • Drummers
        
      • Influential bands
        
    • Awards and recognition
      

Sorry if I did a poor job at performing this task.
--BigJoeRockHead (talk) 22:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

No, you did fine. This is a bogus article and I have nominated it for deletion. Thanks, Madman (talk) 23:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Big Joe, as you might be able to tell from the red header, this article has now been deleted. Madman (talk) 23:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Frank G. Jackson

This article is a horror, a nightmare of unreferenced claims and counterclaims, and POV headache. If this article is not fixed in a week, I shall nominated it for deletion. Mayor of a large city or not, it is a wreck. Bearian (talk) 05:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

This article would not be deleted. In fact, there's not a heck of a lot of POV that I saw, but then again I'm not familiar with Cleveland politics. I did delete one paragraph that was unspeculative.

There is only 1 footnote, unfortunately. A bit of pruning or the use of {{fact}} might improve matters. Or you can find the references yourself. Why don't you take a shot at it?? Madman (talk) 05:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I hate to complain, but it seems like I am doing a lot of heavy lifting to clean up others' messes. I'll share the work, but I'm tired of having to rescue another BLP violation. Bearian (talk) 18:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

In which case remove all content that is unreferenced and could be problematic, then add {stub} to the bottom and the job is done.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. Just take the axe to it. Hipocrite (talk) 18:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment I just worked over the article, but there are still a few problems. Enigma^msg 18:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Scott Storch

I've just taken my machete to this article, which had become an outlandish collection of unsourced puffery and detailed recitals of musical feuds and financial debacles, assembled by anon IP editors. Other eyes would be helpful. Is a request for semi-protection warranted? (yet?) Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that semi-protection is warranted, but I've added this to my watchlist to be on the look-out for untoward assertions. Thanks, Madman (talk) 17:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Shockingly, it seems that a lot of it is true - see [11] and [12]. Hipocrite (talk) 17:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

If only there was a 10 minute video that even anon IPs had to watch before editing, they'd get the simple principle that it took me a few months to really get, and I'm sure others - every allegation should have a nice neat reference at the end of it, even if it means using a >ref name=Whatever> a dozen times in article. Sigh... CarolMooreDC (talk) 23:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Michael Balls

Resolved

 – there is a navbox also created for the bottom of the article, replaced with that. Much less obtrusive. Off2riorob (talk) 14:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

This BLP Michael_Balls seems to be more about animal testing that about Mr Balls, there is a picture of a hamster in the infobox where I would expect a picture of the subject of the biography, have a look and please comment. Off2riorob (talk) 18:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Animal testing is his field. Looks fine to me.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I can't accept that to be true.Is it really ok to have a picture of a hamster in his biography infobox, I can't see that is ok at all, do you know some other comparable situation in a Biography of a living person? It would be like having a picture of a football in the infobox of a footballer because you didn't have a picture of the subject.

I looks like it is a pattern in this animal testing group, here is anoother BLP with the same situation Simon Festing These people are not very notable for a biography if you ask me. Off2riorob (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The hamster is not in an infobox about the individual, it is in a navbox about animal testing. I admit these navboxes are far too prominent and can give undue weight to one part of a person's career.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I see, if its a nav box it should be at the bottom of the page, can it be moved? are all these workers in this field actually notable enough to warrant their own biography? Off2riorob (talk) 19:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Fred Singer

(moved from talk, where I had accidentally posted it)

A small scale edit war is brewing at Fred_Singer over this line, sourced to the RealClimate blog:

"Michael Mann and Gavin Schmidt called the 2008 NIPCC document a "dishonest 'assessment' of the science of climate change."

The RealClimate blog posting sourced is this: [13], and it opens with

"Much in the spirit of the Fraser Institute’s damp squib we reported on last year, S. Fred Singer and his merry band of contrarian luminaries (financed by the notorious “Heartland Institute” we’ve commented on previously) served up a similarly dishonest ‘assessment’ of the science of climate change earlier this year in the form of what they call the “NIPCC” report (the “N” presumably standing for ‘not the’ or ‘nonsense’)." (emphasis mine)

I have removed it twice, others have added it back in. My concern is that RealClimate is a self-published source, and the posting is critical, even mocking, of Singer himself. This seems to be a clear-cut BLP violation, but others are reverting.

Further, there is already a criticism of Singer and his report report, sourced to ABC news, so the RealClimate blog source isn't even necessary to make the point.

I believe it should be removed, and I am seeking outside opinion. Thanks. ATren (talk) 20:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP specificaly prohibits the use of SPS's in biographies. WVBluefield (talk) 21:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

It's properly attributed and Mann in particular is a notable voice. We do not source the criticism of Singer to the blog, we source the criticism of the NIPCC report. Hence it's not a BLP issue. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP specifically prohibits the use of SPS's in biographies. ATren (talk) 21:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

FWIW I don't like the sentence basically because it is undue weight. I don't think the BLP argument is strong, but the source isn't notable enough to be worth it (and we throw too much mud every which way, its not encyclpaedic. I am close to protecting the article anyway because I think its all a bit silly to fight over). --BozMo talk 21:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The reason that it isn't undue weight, is that according to NPOV we have to describe the mainstream view, when a minority/fringe view is being presented. The reason that this is on Singers biography is because the "report" was AfD' and the contents moved to Singers biography (not deemed notable enough). This is not BLP material (since it is about the science and the report - not the person). NPOV is not put out of function because it moves to a biography page. Another trouble here is that some people are confusing that BLP is - protection of persons, not protection of articles. And that BLP and other content policies are equally valid on biographies and articles. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

KDP, if I started a blog post describing "KDP and their merry band of contrarian luminaries", would you consider that not directed at you? But in any case, even if it was not directed at Singer (I believe it clearly was), it's still forbidden per BLP, which forbids all SPS-sourced material from BLPs. ATren (talk) 04:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is that you are confusing what BLP is. BLP is a protection of persons. A biographical article is under BLP protection (just as every content in every article that is about living persons) but not everything in such an article is BLP material. SPS's are disallowed on BLP content, but this is not BLP content. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

If its not BLP content, then it doesn’t belong in the article. See WP:COATRACK. WVBluefield (talk) 15:06, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not against removing the whole NIPCC section, because i do agree that in this case BLP is being used to justify presenting it in a non-NPOV way. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:20, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

KDP, Singer is accused of lying in the first sentence. Do you really claim this is not a criticism of the man himself? And in any case, BLP states "no SPS in BLPs". Even if the criticism weren't personal (it is), its existence in that article would still be inappropriate per BLP policy. ATren (talk) 22:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

First of all that part is not cited, so it is rather irrelevant - but lets go through it anyways: that Singer is a contrarian is supported in large parts of the literature - see discussion here so that part ("contrarian luminaries") isn't strange, that something written is "dishonest" is not the same as "lying" (not to mention that they are talking about the report - not Singer), RC is saying that the science part is one-sided, misleading and completely outside the scientific mainstream (while at the same time claiming to be a review of the mainstream) - which is certainly something that an expert opinion can say. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Kim, we're talking in circles here. None of your arguments above addresses the main concern: SPSs are not permitted in BLPs. RC is a SPS, and the article is a BLP, open-and-shut case. Nothing else matters, not lying vs dishonesty, not the veracity of Singer's contrarianism, nothing. Please read BLP and SPS policies, they are quite clear on this. BLP policy is black-and-white. ATren (talk) 02:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, i disagree - the exception on WP:SPS applies to non-BLP material even on biography articles. (just as the opposite applies to regular articles when taking about living persons) Nothing is ever truly black&white. (and i have read those policies lots of times) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 03:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: all of the above are involved in the dispute, can we gets some outside input on this? ATren (talk) 22:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I've sought clarification on the specifics of BLP policy at talk:BLP. ATren (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The quoted word "dishonest" about the report pushes it clearly over the top in my opinion. It says or implies that Singer is lying, we would need a much better source for that. I don't see why using this blog is particularly desirable here, the ABC report and response performs the same function with unimpeachable sources; saying the blog was critical of the report might be OK with respect to BLP, but also supernumerary.John Z (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Remove The tone of the RealClimate article is clearly inapproriate for inclusion. I haven't read the NIPCC report. If it is as bad as they say, perhaps it is understandable that some would write about with dripping sarcasm and barely disguised hostility. However, having a good reason for writing a non-neutral article does not make it neutral. I'm astounded that anyone would honestly argue it deserves inclusion. (I'm not a participant in that article, although I do recognize some of the names from Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident, so I'll let others decide whether this is "outside" input.)

Random Unreferenced BLPs tool

I added a link to Category:Unreferenced BLPs to open a random page in that category. I use a tool recommended at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Random_article_from_category that creates the necessary link. Using it I quickly found one article that had unreferenced contentious material, Dragan Čović. I found a source for one item and deleted the rest. Several others random articles were either stubs or sports figures with no obvious contentious content. It would be nice to have a tool that made it easy to dispose of articles that have been reviewed, with options to edit, PROD, CSD G10, or move innocuous BLPs to a "sighted unreferenced BLPs" category or some such. If we made it easy, it might be possible to make a triage pass at the 53,677 articles currently in this category.--agr (talk) 21:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Tiger Woods

I'd appreciate comments about describing his alleged affair, particularly the corresponding section title. My position is basically that until the major media outlets drop "alleged" and "rumored" from their descriptions, we shouldn't either. I'm an admin, but I'd appreciate getting views from others experienced in BLP matters. Comments can go here.--Chaser (talk) 03:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that it would be wise to continue use of "alleged" and "rumored" until Woods either explicitly confirms this alleged affair or the major news outlets drop these modifiers. Madman (talk) 04:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

How does all of this reconcile with WP:RS which states "While the reporting of rumors has a news value, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should only include information verified by reliable sources. Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors"? Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Request watchlisting: I have moved this thread to the bottom to request that editors experienced in BLP watchlist the Tiger Woods article and help fix BLP problems as they come up. It is getting a lot of page views every day and I am not on wiki 24 hours a day. Thank you.--Chaser (talk) 14:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The article is still a mess-- rather, one section is a mess, and I think which one is fairly obvious. It's now lacking in several days worth of new news; corrections you might say-- most specifically that any reference to an affair should probably be removed since the only sources ever listed were tabloids and the woman in question has publicly denied it. This is backed up by A+++ news sources like the AP. Talk page there seems to have mostly died in regards to these events... hm, actually edits in general have died down. Any thoughts? Maybe one line in about rumors that were denied by the woman in question? It's hitting higher on defamation the longer its there. I have no idea who decided it was acceptable to use the National Enquirer as a lone source (or source, ever) in the first place. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 10:07, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

John Silber

This article has a "controversy" section, largely unsourced, longer than the rest of the content. I am not too familiar with the subject, so I would appreciate someone more familiar to have a look. Thanks. WVBluefield (talk) 22:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the entire section. Some of it was referenced, but I've erred on the side of caution. If someone wants to rebuild it, fine. If not, fine too..--Scott Mac (Doc) 22:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The_Fellowship_(Christian_organization)#List_of_prominent_Family_members

Can somebody come up with a less POV term than "notoriety"? Woogee (talk) 22:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Like Notable, in WP:Notable?? :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Notable works. John Carter (talk) 01:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Notoriety is not an appropriate term. Woogee (talk) 04:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I changed "Notoriety" to "Notability" Woogee (talk) 23:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Amanda Knox

The above named article was previously deleted while the subject's trial was not yet decided. It was recreated today after the decision came down, but the editor who recreated it as expressed concerns thereafter. Any opinions? John Carter (talk) 01:05, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on Murder of Meredith Kercher. There is nothing in the Knox article that can't go there. There is simply nothing else notable about the individual outside of her part in the murder. I don't have a concern with the article, but it is pointless and should be redirected under WP:BLP1E.--Scott Mac (Doc) 01:10, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The article has been redirected and fully protected. raseaC^{talk to me} 01:50, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

William J. Kelly

William J. Kelly is a TV personality and sportscaster based in Chicago, Illinois. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elizabeth Shine (talk • contribs) 04:09, 5 December 2009 (UTC) Elizabeth Shine (talk) 22:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Were you perhaps trying to create a new article? Aditya Ex Machina 17:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

David W. Ogden

Requesting some neutral arbitration re: recent edits on David W. Ogden. The contentious paragraph is:

Ogden has been criticized for arguing against child pornography laws[14] and for being a lawyer for pornographic magazines like Playboy and Penthouse and opposing laws against pornographic material being available on computers used by children in libraries and schools. He has also been criticized for suing the government so that Braille copies of Playboy would be available in the Library of Congress.

which has been inserted and reverted a couple of times (see here as example).

I don't want to get caught in the middle between User:Billyboy01 and User:64.53.136.29, so I'm listing this matter here. I do feel, however, that the inclusion probably violates WP:BLP, WP:V and probably WP:NPOV. Mark5677 (talk) 08:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the paragraph you cite above (and other similar edits by User:64.53.136.29) violates all the policies you mentioned. I have repeatedly tried to explain myself in the edit comments, but I haven't bothered to engage User:64.53.136.29 directly because their childish m.o. makes it clear they're not interested in debate: they introduce biased material that is unsourced or unverifiable, wait for it to get reverted, reintroduce the reverted material, accuse the reverter of being the subject of the article or related to the subject of the article, and then whine about left-wing Wikipedia bias; repeat every 3 months. When I first encountered these edits, I assumed good faith and incorporated them into the article by introducing a neutral sentence about the Playboy/Penthouse criticism and replacing the right-wing reference(a townhall.com opinion piece) with a mainstream reference (a Wall Street Journal news piece). I removed any info that I could not verify in the mainstream source. For reference, the sentence currently in the article is Ogden's nomination was criticized by conservative groups that objected to some of his previous legal work, such as his representation of adult entertainment companies including Playboy and Penthouse. In addition to violating Wikipedia policies, the "contentious paragraph" is also redundant. Billyboy01 (talk) 11:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

As discussed elsewhere on this page, inclusion of material from a blog is not allowed in Biographies of Living Persons. There is a solid sourced NPOV sentence about why some folks don't like Ogden and that should suffice for this issue.

Keep deleting unsourced or blog-sourced potentially inflammatory material. Thanks, Madman (talk) 15:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Added MSNBC Source..is that liberal enough? I couldn't find an article in the CHina Daily or Pravda. So when do you acknowledge that the IP address of these pro-Ogden edits resolve to Georgetown University, where is daughter is attending? Just a coincidence? Yeah. 64.53.136.29 (talk) 05:17, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the addition again. The section may belong, but not in the way it's currently worded. Saying he argued 'against child pornography laws' without explaining what the laws were is unacceptable on a BLP. A fair potrayal of the controversy would likely include his response `Nil Einne (talk)

As opposed to removing the content, let us instead reword it, as you stated is necessary. I agree that it is not a neutral way to word the content, but removing it altogether is not appropriate either. by hajatvrc at 06:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes it is particular since WP:BLP applies, I was removing a contentious addition to a quasi-stable version. You're welcome to fix it, but it's not my responsibility to fix unacceptable additions to WP:BLPs. This of course could have been avoided if 64.53 discussed this first or had bothered to discuss it after it had been disputed rather then making random accusations against an IP editor without any real evidence and then just adding it back without any semblance of discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 06:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't need to discuss it. It's not your article. Stop reverting fact. First you say it's not sourced, so I sourced it with two news organizations. Now you're trying another end-around to get it removed because of your political bias. Stop.75.150.245.241 (talk) 16:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. I move to replace the disputed content with the material by BillieBoy01:

Ogden's nomination was criticized by conservative groups that objected to some of his previous legal work, such as his representation of adult entertainment companies including Playboy and Penthouse.

As he stated, the rest of the content is not necessarily supported by the cited sources and this is a neutral way of presenting the information that IS supported. by hajatvrc at 06:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Um you do realise the article already says that right and has since September [15] [16]? Not in a controversy section (which is general best avoided anyway Wikipedia:Criticism#Evaluations in a "Criticism" section) but in the Deputy Attorney General section (where it is much more appropriate given that it directly relates to that and only became an issue because of it). This incidentally highlights another problem, the addition was partially redundant (which Billy already pointed out), I guess because 64.53 didn't apparently read the entire article before adding back the disputed addition multiple times. It may be appropriate for the part to be slightly expanded but it likely should remain where it is rather then an unnecessary controversy section Nil Einne (talk) 06:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

My apologies. It's 2am :). by hajatvrc at 06:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The controversy section is required. Or is it only required when it's a conservative? Your bias is evident. The verbiage I removed was in the article for a year before it was removed by an anonymous user at Georgetown University, where Ogden's daughter is attending. How convenient? 75.150.245.241 (talk) 16:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Anon, please stop making personal attacks that are based upon your uninformed opinion. You have no reason to suspect that these editors have any personal stake in this issue WP:DGAF. The information about Ogden's nomination being criticized is already in the article. As has been stated, sections that list criticism tend to be discouraged because they are not encyclopedic. Information about criticism of this person (as long as it is properly sourced) may be incorporated into the rest of the article. Please, instead of attacking people, provide constructive and neutral suggestions for what to incorporate into the article. by hajatvrc at 21:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

2008 Barack Obama alleged assassination plot in Denver

• 2008 Barack Obama alleged assassination plot in Denver (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - These men were not convicted yet all over the article they are referred to as assasins. This is name calling even if they are 3 stooges that should be jailed. // Head of Security for the World (talk) 00:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I found only one place in the article (an image caption) where the alleged plotters were labeled in a manner that incorrectly suggested they were guilty. I fixed that. I also removed some wording that gave undue emphasis (by repetition) to the fact that there is no proof of guilt. The article still needs some additional cleanup. --Orlady (talk) 00:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Jarmo Eskelinen

A biography of a Finnish media professional Jarmo Eskelinen doesn't have any links to support the data that the entry provides. For example, one excerpt of the entry:

"Jarmo Eskelinen (also Elukka Eskelinen; s. 20 November 1962) is one of the leading media and creative industries experts of Finland, living in Helsinki."

In the entry, there is no link or any further information supporting the claim that this person really is one of the leading media experts of Finland. According to the Wikipedia policy, there has to be supporting data for such claims.

I'd flag this article down as it doesn't provide enough supporting information for the content. Also, it gives a strong feel that it is a self-written biography, which is not along the lines of Wikipedia policies. Freeflowofinfo (talk) 01:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freeflowofinfo (talk • contribs) 01:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

You are correct that the statement "one of the leading . . . " needs to be supported and I have removed it. Please feel free to edit this article at will and investigate whether or not this fellow is notable. Madman (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I've listed it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jarmo Eskelinen. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Stuart Briscoe

• Stuart Briscoe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - On this article Flavius Constantine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps adding that Briscoe currently resides in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. I removed it and asked him if he had a reliable source to back this up. He responded with "Yup. See article." None of the links in the article appear to support where he is currently residing. I thought maybe he was using this as a "reliable source" and I asked him. His response was to blank his talk page. He has once again added the information to the article without a supporting source. If you check the related city's history you'll see he keeps adding Briscoe's name to the notable people section. I need advice on what I should do next. // Rockfang (talk) 09:04, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right here. I'm willing to help you with this. Aditya Ex Machina 15:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Tobin, bishop

• Thomas Joseph Tobin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In this article, the bishop's arch-conservative interpretation of Catholic doctrine is described simple as the bishop "upholding Catholic teaching." The seemingly neutral phrasing used to describe his positions is deceptive. The bishop's hard-line social positions (against homosexuality, abortion, same=sex marriage) are, in fact, extreme, even among Catholic bishops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domorel (talk • contribs) 12:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is as such a BLP issue, the paragraph does go on to clarify his views. However I don't know if this should be regarded as a reliable source for his views. If you thing that "upholding Catholic teaching" is not applicable then your could remove it, although it has only been there 10 days or so. Martin451 (talk) 00:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum

• Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - swearwords and rediculating // just read the article please

Thanks for reporting this. I've reverted the article in question to a good version, and will take some action to prevent the same thing happening again. --Deskana (talk) 14:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Richard Isaac Fine

Richard Isaac Fine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The lede contained a strong statement, now removed [17]

I removed it, but looking to see if I handled it correctly.

It is not uncommon to write a lede without references, as a summary of the remainder of the article, with the references attached to the discussion in the main article. While that may be a common practice, I'm uncomfortable allowing such a strong statement without an immediate reference.

Furthermore, I looked in the main article, and I'm not completely convinced that the claim there is adequately supported. The statement "was later discovered to be invalid on its face. [17] and lacking authentication.[18]" has two footnotes, but one is explanatory text without a reference, and the other is to a primary document. While primary documents can be acceptable references, I would think we would insist on a reliable source in this case.

In a later section, it is implied that he is falsely imprisoned. I added a {{citation needed}} template, but I'm thinking more aggressive editing is called for.

On the major - give me a couple of days (48 hours) to get back to this job - i.e. till tuesday.InproperinLA (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

As a minor note, is it acceptable to describe someone as an attorney if they have been disbarred, or should he be called a former attorney?--SPhilbrickT 19:04, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

On the minor: One may be disbarred in one jurisdiction, yet be an attorney in another. You are talking here a person who was an international attorney. InproperinLA (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Second - while he may not be permitted by California law to hold himself out to be an attorney, he may be "attorney in fact", and others are not barred from calling him attorney.InproperinLA (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Najib Tun Razak

There are some active disputes and edit warring going on in this BLP of the current Prime Minister of Malaysia. I think this article has been mentioned on /N before but unfortunately this is a big mess and not one easy to resolve. The fact it concerns such a high profile politician probably also understandbly means people feel less urgency when it comes to BLP. But I thought I'd raise it here in case anyone wants to try. Nil Einne (talk) 19:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Mohammad Atrianfar

Mohammad Atrianfar - this article is pure pro-regime propaganda. Atrianfar was imprisoned by the revolutionary guards and any "confessions" he made were under threat.77.250.200.70 (talk) 21:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC) On the other hand, if Wikipedia keeps up this standard, it will be unblocked in Iran in no time! 77.250.200.70 (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted this material as unsourced. I will be keeping an eye on it. I could use some help from additional experienced editors <sigh>. Madman (talk) 00:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I've got a set of eyes on it. JamieS93 01:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll watch list the article.(olive (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC))

TobyMac

Toby's real name is indeed Tobias, not "Kevin Michael MacKeehan". The false information is likely derived from the names of Toby's friends and former partners in dcTalk, Kevin Max Smith and Michael Tait. No instance of "Kevin Michael MacKeehan" has ever been used officially, either in liner notes, or on TobyMac's website.

I'm posting this because I have changed this false information about a dozen times now.

Sorry, but I believe you're mistaken. Even though as a songwriter he is always credited as "Toby McKeehan", his birth name is Kevin Michael McKeehan, and the "Tobias" thing is a myth. Multiple sources can prove this. The Washington Post was the first one I came to. If you Google search "kevin michael mckeehan", and ignore the blogs and Wikipedia mirror websites, I'm sure you'll find multiple reliable results confirming his name as Kevin Michael. I've re-added it back in; please do not remove it without discussion, because that constitutes edit warring. Regards, JamieS93 02:11, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

List of actresses in the MILF porn genre

I've listed the above on Afd as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of actresses in the MILF porn genre. The article is largely/almost exclusively sourced from imdb. It thus constitutes badly sourced BLP material - however, to remove the bad stuff would leave nothing. I'm posting here because, if this survives afd, it will need immediate and brutal BLP surgery.--Scott Mac (Doc) 09:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Blacklisting due to BLP issues?

Is it appropriate to blacklist (or monitor through a bot like XLinkBot (talk · contribs)) external links because of WP:BLP concerns? Specifically, I encountered the addition of http://deceiver.com as a reference in this edit. I noticed that the same editor (and possibly others) has used the same reference in the past, and all those contributions were also removed per WP:BLP. --Ronz (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why not, though the edit filter could also be used for this. I don't think blacklisting is a good idea, though monitoring certainly is. Aditya Ex Machina 20:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've copied my original question to WT:WPSPAM to get further opinions, due to the lack of responses here. --Ronz (talk) 16:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of material from American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine

In this edit Fred Bauder (talk · contribs) removed a summary of five reliable sources (including the NYT and The Times) for the stated reason that these were "journalistic sources" and that the information in these sources cast the people concerned in "a false light" per the BLP policy.

The main source for this section was the 2007 NYT article Aging: Disease or Business Opportunity? but the dispute was also mentioned by the LA Times, The Times, CNN and two separate articles article 1 article 2 in The Journals of Gerontology Series A: Biological Sciences and Medical Sciences Given this broad and in-depth coverage of this incident, I don't see how this deletion can be justified. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that the article, American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine is not about the two men, who are licensed physicians, albeit Osteopaths. Apparently, in addition to their training and licensing as osteopaths, they also trained as MDs through a distance learning school Central American Health Sciences in Belize, which included residency in Mexico. That degree is not accepted in Illinois where these two gentlemen practice. By including trouble they had over whether they could refer to themselves as MD in the article a false impression is created that they are somehow not properly licensed, but they are, for 20 years, as osteopaths. There appears to be a pattern of point of view editing of this article, see

The old version of the article quoted the Illinois Board of Professional Regulation stating that "Both physicians did receive degrees as doctors of medicine, but were never properly licensed to use the title “M.D.” in Illinois" The article also quoted CNN as stating that "the A4M co-founders have since received licenses, but are not permitted to write prescriptions." The article therefore did note that they had received degrees and that they are now licensed as MDs. Given the article specifically contradicted the "impression" Fred objects to, I can't see how the argument that someone might gather this mistaken impression justifies deleting a summary of several verifiable sources. If you think we should be clearer about their DO degrees Fred, why not just add a sentence describing these degrees? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

What about

The Academy's co-founders include Klatz and Goldman, two osteopaths who are licensed to practice as osteopathic physicians in Illinois. According to the New York Times they also received MD degrees from a university in Belize in 1988, although the paper notes that they had not studied in Belize.

They are simply licensed physicians. The article is not about them. The information that they had not studied in Belize creates a straw man requirement and thus a false impression, as though there is somehow something inadequate about their medical training. They are licensed physicians. What is the point of muddying the issue? Fred Talk 21:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm torn here - I can see Fred's point. The article isn't about these two individuals, who are just two of the founders, and the "Credential dispute" has nothing to do with the A4M at all. I mean, had one of the founders once been involved in an unrelated malpractice suit, would we include that? (Especially had it been unfounded.) Although the section was factual, and did include the conclusion they were legitimate doctors, it still smacks of the hatchet job tenancy of "guilt by association". The net effect invites the reader towards a "quack, quack, quack" conclusion.

But then that's the other side. Borderline medicine is often associated with dodgy doctors and bogus credentials (although in the end there are not such) and so the connection is there in popular prejudice. I suppose the argument goes: "lay out the fact and let the reader draw their own conclusions - don't suppress information". However, in the end, given the tangential relevancy, and the danger we lead the reader towards a conclusion (even while protesting we are not), I'm coming down on the side of exclusion. The net effect of inclusion borders on a breach WP:UNDUE and NPOV.--Scott Mac (Doc) 21:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I suppose it is because they are the founders of this organisation and the principal figures promoting anti-aging medicine that all the sources I have listed above comment on this event in the context of discussing the A4M. However, it is not our business as Wikipedia editors to second-guess the NYT's motives. The NYT felt this was relevant information to mention when discussing the A4M, the NYT is an eminently reliable source, therefore there is no problem within the BLP policy in including this information in the article. If you are worried that a reader might gain a "false impression" (which is already directly contradicted by the text of the article) the best way of resolving this concern is to make the article even more clear on this point than it already is. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem with that view is that it abdicates our editorial judgement in favour of that of the NYT. Papers, even quality papers, have their biases - we need to strive for neutrality even when they do. Had the NYT article mentioned that one of the doctors was involved in a messy divorce, would that mean we should mention that in the article? No. The NYT is a reliable source in terms of facts, but the facts are not in dispute, what is in dispute is relevance and neutrality - and we need to reach our own consensus judgement on where that lies here.--Scott Mac (Doc) 22:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

In my view The NYT determines the facts, and the wide discussion of this event in connection with the A4M establishes the notability, even to the point of being mentioned in "Anti-Aging Medicine: The History: Life Extension and History: The Continual Search for the Fountain of Youth", which is a general academic history of the anti-aging movement. Here is the section in her article where Haber discusses the meaning of the incident:

Not surprisingly, like the gland doctors before them, the leaders of the A4M have had their practices and credentials assailed by the medical and legal communities. In 2000, the State of Illinois Department of Professional Regulations challenged A4M founders Ronald Klatz, DO, and Robert Goldman, DO, who, in numerous books, had identified themselves as MDs. Although both men had acquired an MD degree from the Central America Health Sciences University School of Medicine in Belize, the state ruled that they were not licensed to use this credential in Illinois. As a result, on December 6, 2000, Klatz and Goldman agreed to pay $5000 apiece and "cease and desist" from identifying themselves as MDs (32). Much like Brinkley, the goat gland doctor who had battled with the American Medical Association and the Kansas Medical Board, the leaders of the A4M have had to revise their credentials according to professional standards.

After all, per WP:N notability comes from an event being discussed in multiple secondary sources. I can see the argument that we spend too much space on this (due in part to this having been a contentious section in the past) What do you think of condensing this section, to avoid giving undue weight to the issue. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The Academy's co-founders include Klatz and Goldman, two osteopaths who are licensed to practice as osteopathic physicians in Illinois. According to the New York Times they received MD degrees from a university in Belize in 1988, but the Illinois State Board of Medical Registration did not recognize these degrees, and stated that the Board fined the men in 2000 for using MD after their names. CNN reported in 2007 that the A4M co-founders have since received licenses to practice as MDs, but are not permitted to write prescriptions. Writing in 2004, the historian Carole Haber put this dispute into context, noting that "like the gland doctors before them, the leaders of the A4M have had their practices and credentials assailed by the medical and legal communities"

Based on the quotation, I guess the information could be condensed to "Klatz and Goldman have been harassed in the media (and on Wikipedia) with respect to their professional qualifications." Fred Talk 22:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've asked you this several times before, but please base text on sources Fred, not your own opinions. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

As I said at the article talk, controversy is notable (=reported), and clearly a notable source sees the controversy as integral to the understanding of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. Hence, should be kept in. By the same argument, irregularities in many articles that might be germane to the understanding of the entity discussed could be removed. A worrying precedent. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not neccessarily too worried by it going in, but the notability slight of hand doesn't cut it with me. Notability is NOT a core policy on wikipedia, neutrality IS. The information is certainly factual and verifiable, but is it germane, or is it leading? I've seen too many articles that are factual, and seemingly neutrally presented, but the editorial decisions on what to include or exclude fall far short of (what I see as) neutrality. Your argument seems to imply that because the NYT is "a notable source" (whatever that means) that its editorial decision (or that of the journalist in question) ought to be the benchmark for what is neutral here. I think that's both naive and dangerous. Whatever we end up doing here (and I'm not that fussed) we can't escape making a judgement, for better or for worse. Life's like that, and what's neutral is in itself subjective. I know many wikipedians like to believe that there's some nice formula to do with sources that will always give us "the right answer". But neutrality is an art not a science and we need to do the thinking ourselves. This is actually a very interesting debate.--Scott Mac (Doc) 23:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Speaking personally, I think the main argument for relevance is that Klatz and Goldman are the core of the A4M. Unlike say the AMA, which is a huge organisation and cannot be defined by a few people, the A4M is run by a handful of people. This, combined with the large number of books written by these two on the topic, makes their personal history of direct relevance to the history of the organisation and the history of the anti-aging medicine "specialty". In fact you could argue that all these topics overlap to such an extent that they are really the same. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay then, if you are a company whose opinion and research is based to a large extent on having medical or science qualifications, and those are called into question, then this doubt is integral to the understanding of the qualifications of the personnel of a company and how one is able to view it. More information = fuller picture. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm misreading what's at issue, but the controversy about this organization (which is actually its main claim to notability) is whether or not it is promoting junk science. The credentials and qualifications of the sponsors are central to that issue. Provided that all relevant known facts are included (including the Mexico stuff, which is the reader's choice how to interpret), I don't see how this topic can be avoided. ^Bongo_matic 17:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Purely from a structural POV, I think the article veers into WP:COATRACK territory (because it talks so much about Klatz and Goldman), and looks like WP:ATP too (because frankly it is very critical of the subjects). I see there is an argument here to say that these two people are especially prominent, but they are NOT the same thing. Perhaps structurally the article should be broken down into one about A4M and one each for Klatz and Goldman if they are felt to be notable enough. The article is also far too long with over 4000 words compared with about half that for the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence for example. The *goal* of this article (or articles) should surely be to present a balanced perspective in a clear manner, thus enabling the reader to make up their own mind? Shritwod (talk) 19:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately Klatz and Goldman have little notability independent of this organization and this organisation has little notability independent of Klatz and Goldman. The two subjects are deeply intertwined. The problem of "tone" is tricky, since all but one of the reliable, independent sources about this subject are highly critical of the A4M's approach and ideas. The single exception is an editorial from 2009 (PMID 19269702), which is already cited in the article as a dissenting voice praising the A4M. It is particularly difficult to write about organisations that are described in highly-critical terms in the overwhelming majority of reliable sources, since per WP:NPOV the article has to give the most weight to the majority of sources and cannot be "balanced" in the sense of giving equal validity and equal time to both views. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Positive" and "negative", "true" and "false", "critical" vs "uncritical" are labels that should have no bearing on if and how editors present information from reliable sources. Reliable sources on this subject have covered the credentials of the A4M founders and how they have represented them in public. It's not the purview of editors to base their inclusion of information from RS on whether that information could lead readers to see the subject in a "good" or "bad" light. That's not to say that editorial judgement has no place. Certainly, if the New York Times had stated that one of the founders sports a mohawk or plays the cello brilliantly or was involved in an acrimonious divorce, such information could be considered of no relevance to this article. Medical credentials and one's representation of them are another matter. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

But one point that needs to be considered is that of the organisation itself. A4M is listed as an organisation of note, therefore its own assertions as to its beliefs and purpose are important. In the article, these are largely covered in the "Beliefs" section, but really that should be near the top and may benefit from editing in respect of WP:WEASEL. As I said, this is not a biography of Klatz and Goldman and I do not believe that it needs to be covered in such depth here. Finally, although Wikipedia is now discouraging "Criticism" sections, it would perhaps be appropriate to move critical comment into its own section. I think that is a pretty common structure for an article on a controversial topic. Oh yes, and the entry is far too long and rambles somewhat. Shritwod (talk) 21:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

If you read the beliefs section (which is the first section), you will see that these are largely the beliefs of Klatz and Goldman, since they are the authors of most of the sources cited. As to "criticism sections" these are poor practice, and are specifically advised against in our NPOV policy, see chiropractic and homeopathy for examples of how to integrate both viewpoints on a topic within the text. You might also want to read Wikipedia:Article size. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, no, "Beliefs" isn't the first section - the first section is an introduction that appears to jump straight into axe-grinding. As for "criticisms", guidance has shifted on this recently, and unhelpfully. Attempting to include these criticisms within the main article appears only to be undermining the objectivity of the article IMO. Shritwod (talk) 05:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I can see the point for wanting the article to fous narrowly on the topic, but at the same time we have to follow the sources in deciding which information is relevant and what context is needed. As I see it, DUE requires a modicum of coverage of the founders. Perhaps in twenty years this will be nothing more than a historical footnote to the organization, but for the nonce we should follow the course charted by the reliable sources. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Kevin Rose

• Kevin Rose (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Repeated additions of potentially libelous material by this range of IPs. I have argued these are questionable sources at best.
• 69.196.147.187 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [18]
• 69.196.147.47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [19]
• 69.196.147.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [20]

-- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 22:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've semi-protected for a month. After explaining to the IP, treat such edits as vandalism and report for blocking. The sources are quite unacceptable.--Scott Mac (Doc) 22:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Ophélie Bretnacher

Resolved

 – Article sent to AfD. Jezebel'sPonyo^shhh 18:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the Ophélie Bretnacher article. Although it contains multiple references, it appears that it falls completely under WP:BLP1E. There is also the issue that "Category:French murder victims" is being used when it would appear from reading the (roughly translated) article that the police concluded she had drowned. I'm tempted to bring the article to AfD, but would like some opinions prior to doing so. Jezebel'sPonyo^shhh 17:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a good candidate for AFD to me, she is not notable imo, there is some reporting of her death but this crime report single event imo doesn't assertain notability for a bio, just to mention ..she is dead and this is the BLP noticeboard. Off2riorob (talk) 18:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Ugh, I'm so used to working within the BLP arena that when I came across this article via New Page Patrol I read it through my BLP 'filter'. The article still feels wrong to me though, it just seems like a bunch of fingerpointing and conjecture. --Jezebel'sPonyo^shhh 18:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No worries, I did exactly the same thing, send it to AFD, I support that. Off2riorob (talk) 18:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I have sent it to AFD here please add comments there. Off2riorob (talk) 18:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Christopher Phelps

The subject of the article has objected to content and removed it. The content describing a faculty dispute he was engaged in is well-sourced, verifiable, apparently notable, NPOV, not defamatory nor libelous. He contends the edits were based on "bad source material." He implied legal consequences, writing that "frivolous changes to the entry that create a disproportionate weight and do not add to understanding of the body of the subject's historical writings are immaterial. It could have legal implications for Wikipedia."

In addition to removing any content related to a faculty dispute, he also removed a statement that he ran for the U.S. Senate as a Socialist.

The sources he says are bad include content from Oregon State University, World Net Daily, and the Columbus Dispatch Newspaper. It appears to me that all three sources are valid.

The same content has been removed three times in 24 hours by user WFCarlton here, here, and here. I do not know if this is the account for the subject of the article, but that user was asked three times to refrain from making edits without making comments or discussing the issues on the article's talk page. While I respect the article subject's concerns, his edits appear self-serving. I believe the content in question should be restored. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Well we only have his word for it that he is the subject of the article. If he really is then procedures exist for him to report such matters - WP:BIOSELF - but OTRS is unlikely to look favourably on requests to delete sourced material. – ukexpat (talk) 19:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Even if he is the subject of the article, he should not be dictating what is and is not included in the article. Note the IP address that claims to be him is based near Ohio, not in the UK where he currently claims to be.

With regards to his edits, there does seem to be a bit of undue weight on the Savage incident that the IP removed, and given that this is a BLP, I would suggest leaving that out. I think the fact that he ran for the US senate is notable enough to be included in the article.

By the way, Btphelps, what is your interest here, as I note your username is similar to that of the surname of the subject? Martin451 (talk) 19:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I support the removal of the librarian so called controversy, it is weakly supported by poor citations and seems a bit excessive, we are imo not here to report such non notable incidents. Off2riorob (talk) 21:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

World Net Daily is not by any stretch of the imagination a reliable source for a BLP. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:06, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I addressed the first two content deletions by WFCarlton because no edit summary had been provided for the removal of sourced material (regardless of source quality) and no discussion entered on the talkpage. I assumed vandalism at first but in my opinion, then as now, the detail and length of the deleted material distorted the biography as a whole; trim it or expand the other sections to match its weight. For this disinterested UK non-academic drive-by reader, the subject's academic life and achievements are overwhelmed by a "controversy" whose notability is inferred by the undue weight afforded it. Haploidavey (talk) 23:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Other than the fact the the subject of the article and I share the same last name, I have no interest.

I wondered about WorldNetDaily as a suitable source, given their obvious right wing slant, but noted that the article about them mentions their being cited by the Drudge Report, so I went with it. I could not find the WorldNetDaily when I searched WP for a list of non-reliable sources.

I thought Phelps' contribution to the Michael Savage faculty situation was notable, given his interest in labor and political issues. If WorldNetDaily is not a qualified source, then the question is whether the faculty dispute is notable on its own right based on the source info provided by the Columbia Dispatch. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The subject of the article has reverted the addition of his run for the U.S. Senate as a Socialist twice more within 24 hours without discussion. To offer input and for details, please see the article's talk page. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Tiger Woods, again

Comments requested at Talk:Tiger_Woods#Dispute. Is including something that has been reported in one reliable source undue weight? Thanks.--Chaser (talk) 00:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This isn't good. ABC and CBS stories that could never stand up to scrutiny... I'm kind of angered those places would ever publish such things. If something is new information or an exceptional claim or remotely defamatory, it should have more than one source within current events. Period. If there aren't other locations of the same information in some form, it probably means it's still too close to news and not to being possibly verified for our purposes. The word of Christ himself by itself would not be enough to convince me of affairs with more than 6 women and PORNBIO-listed individual were happening in this case. Hell, there's barely proof of any affair past one quote in US Weekly. I have no idea why that's been given so much weight, even. ...I'm going to remove everything after 210 written as it is. The Boston Herald article is the only thing close to a plausible story out of all of that, and it's absurd to tie the entire statement on the weight of just that one source. No. If these things were such clear fact why wouldn't we have dozens and dozens of possible sources of the most reliable types with the same information. As I said, US Weekly's one quote is weight of any affair at all and that would also look a lot better with more behind it.

That area under it needs to be rewritten from scratch, though I honestly don't understand why any editor would be so desperate to include all of that for now until we know more and that "more" is spat out by a multitude of our more heavy-hitter sources. Not re-inserting it would be a pretty good way to kill any debate for the night and wait for another day of news, at least. The article has GA status! Why oh why would we risk that with any degree of gossip? I have nothing to do with the article's development, but GA/FA statuses give credibility to the community and project as a whole as seen by the world, and although no article should have to go through anything like this, it's just a slightly more powerful call to arms. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 01:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a media feeding-frenzy, fueled in no small part by Woods' own fruitless efforts to control said media. USAToday.com is saying he's had, what, 7 or 8 or maybe 9 reported flings that have come to light so far? (I've lost count). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It'll take months to sort this out or for any academic/professional to get a point in, but there is an honest-to-god neurological syndrome where some behaviors are a lack of understanding for how others are perceiving your words, or not comprehending their replies, or worrying oneself to death so far that only apologies come out when speaking. At least that's my guess that's one reason this has been awkward with him. As Chaser has suggested, I'm going to copy some of my above over to his article talk page. ... and chop out the tabloid nonsense... again. It's a GA-status BLP with an average of 100k hits/day since the incident.... disgraceful on our part. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 01:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

No doubt we'll be hearing new facts and rumors frequently for awhile. The point made by the ESPN Sports Reporters, Sports Illustrated, and others, is that Woods has always tried to control media-related things, and this is the first major thing he has been unable to control. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

• For Record Keeping: This diff is probably the best version in awhile. "This is the best we know of it up to this point" I think is a good summary of things at this version. I'll unofficially nominate this as a good revert point if things go horribly wrong and spiral into chaos in the short-term or until there is anything significant to add. Weasel-type resources are pretty much gone, things only tabloid-backed are out, anything at all defamatory without an A-grade or higher source is out. Good work. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 02:34, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Marcelo Chimirri, David Romero Ellner, Financial irregularities during the Manuel Zelaya administration

A new user User:Alb28(sockpuppet?) has created 3 new articles and injected similar information into other articles with very dubious content not backed up byRS about Marcelo Chimirri, David Romero Ellner, and Financial irregularities during the Manuel Zelaya administration. Could you look quickly at them and advise what should be done. speedy deletion?? advice would be much appreciated.Cathar11 (talk) 01:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Issue raised at WP:ANI#User:Alb28 Martin451 (talk) 02:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This was largely a content issue, in my opinion, and it has settled down, at least at Marcelo Chimirri and Manuel Zelaya. Certainly the recent events in Honduras have been contentious. Madman (talk) 22:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Wendi Deng

Wendi Deng

The following sourced information has been constantly removed and changed from her biography: The information of having an affair with a married man and she also started seeing another man while she was finally married the first one, who sponsored her Visa to USA.(source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/1372878/How-Murdochs-wife-won-her-ticket-to-America.html) and (http://www.investingvalue.com/investment-leaders/wendi-deng/index.htm) All of that information has not been contested or sued for defamation or libel.

On the other hand, there are many other unsourced but positive in nature, and yet very general statements that questions the validity and neutrality of them interspersed through the article. The article now, hold very little in value, or information about when she went to school, which schools she dropped out, when she graduated, what she did, and how she lived in USA. All fogged through general statements, unsourced, but makes broad allegations that she is a businesswoman and unsourced and unsupported work accomplishment at Star TV.

All information, no matter how "unflattering" it might be, sourced, though maybe disputed, and brought in a counterbalance into the article, SHOULD NOT BE DELETED JUST BECAUSE IT IS UNFLATTERING. But that is exactly what is happening with biography of Wendi Deng. I look forward to productive discussion on how to provide information for people to make their own decission, and NOT censor it just because someone might not like how it might present the subject at hand. Censorship must stop.

StopTheCensors (talk) 02:23, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

First of all, calm down. Second of all, your comment here is in response to an editor who performed this edit. That edit was undeniably appropriate, and there has been no other removal of negative information in the last six months. What, exactly, are you talking about? Steve Smith (talk) 02:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Steve, I have been watching that article for the last 5 years. I find it very interesting how people rise to power, and their histories. Occidental or planned, I look towards whole picture. For Wendi Deng, some might say, her life was serious of trial and errors. The errors, subjective as we all agree, in her biography have been deleted. Please notice the history of consistent "cleansing" of her aricle. Eventually the logs show that it was originating from her main company, please see discussion, and the person got caught red handed. Now the article reached the perfect "clean" saturation point where information doesnt get updated, and old information got buried so much back, that is hard to see. They will write anything to circumvent the following information that 1: She had an affair 2: She never completed schools but Yale 3: She used to work in Salon. Notice how much of her life is just made "unknown"' and or so vague. How is that that the article written in poor grammar and structure now dominates with so little information - yet on such a person? Yet amazing work done at Star TV HK that are unverifiable and unsourced are placed instead and allowed to stay unchallenged? That is why I am tired of seeing year after year, changes made to contributions myself and other made to this article completely refuted without any explanation and replaced with that tripe. It has to stop.

StopTheCensors (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Keshia Chanté

An anonymous editor is repeatedly making good faith edits to remove a serious BLP violation from the Keshia Chanté article. Since the anon keeps making the edits without explanation, and are continuing to make the same edits, they keep getting blocked. In actuality, their edits are valid, and they should be allowed to stay. Woogee (talk) 02:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation. Things seem to be in hand now, though; is any further action required? Steve Smith (talk) 03:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Right now, no, but there were a lot of problematic edits in the lede, making claims that were not supported by the linked sources. It probably should be kept an eye on. I'm not sure if any of the claims are valid, based on those links, but as I've never even heard of this person, it would help if somebody familiar with her would take a look at it. Woogee (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

User:FrossBitten reverted my edits, I have re-reverted him and explained to him that, despite his claims, I actually did explain my edits on the article's Talk page. Woogee (talk) 03:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Troy Davis case

• Troy Davis case (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Troy Davis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The first article has 45 watchers, the second has less than 30. They could do with a few more, since especially the first article is a playground for racists. Hans Adler 08:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Quade Cooper

• Quade Cooper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - the subject has been arrested in Brisbane for alleged breaking and entering. Someone has scattered numerous offensive puns about this throughout the article // Rogpat (talk) 11:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC) and/or

I think I got most of it out. Cirt (talk) 11:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

That was fast! Rogpat (talk) 12:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

If it happens again, please request semiprotection at WP:RFPP. Cirt (talk) 12:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Richard Lindzen 2

ArbComm candidate William M. Connolley (talk · contribs) along with Atmoz (talk · contribs), KimDabelsteinPetersen (talk · contribs), and a new/returning member, the Australian climate change blogger John_Quiggin (talk · contribs), have descended again upon MIT Professor Richard Lindzen's biography, one of the greatest meteorologists of the previous century, this time to advance a point of view (see WP:SYN) that Lindzen is a "contrarian", which is defined as a sort of "bad faith" skeptic, a sort of person who'll argue that the role of CO2 in climate change is minimal, just for the sake of argument (and this is of course, not true; no one of note genuinely holds the view that Lindzen doesn't actually believe in his position anything less than passionately). They have created a section "Contrarianism", to include this material, which appears to violate policy of naming conventions of subheadings, and appears to be included primarily for the purpose of restoring by insinuation that Lindzen is somehow linked with Big Tobacco.

A number of editors have either tried to remove the section or have expressed the view that it should not be included but these good faith appeals to the WP:BLP policy have been ignored, and the edit-warring has begun.

I should like to add how disappointing this is, given the assistance I have given in defending the BLPs of Michael Mann, Kevin Trenberth in the wake of Climategate, and the fact that I had previously cleaned up the Gavin Schmidt article, having removed BLP violations added by climate change skeptics.

This is not co-operative; it is not collegial, and it is not professional behaviour. Alex Harvey (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

For the morbidly curious, the discussion began here, Richard_Lindzen#Health_Risks_of_Smoking_Section. Alex Harvey (talk) 14:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

• This may very well be bad editing technique. It could be wrong, it could be rude, it could be disruptive. But one thing it isn't is a BLP issue. Accusing someone of being "contrarian" is not exactly libelous. Follow dispute resolution. causa sui× 16:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

comment i'm only going to address one of these issues, since its the one i know something about, and that is the one about "this time to advance a point of view (see WP:SYN) that Lindzen is a "contrarian"" which Alex attributes to bad faith of his fellow editors. Unfortunately this is not something that we "invented" - i give here just the few references that i could find within 5 minutes of Google-time (without checking which are used in the article, and it takes quite some time to manually edit these cite web templates) - none of these are opinion articles (except the one from Lindzen himself):

• Sampson, Patsy (2000). "The Science and Politics of Global Warming: The Climate of Political Change at MIT" (PDF). MIT Undergraduate Research Journal. 3. MIT. Who would know better than Professor Lindzen,who has been assigned by the media the title of "climate contrarian."
• Stevens, William K. (Feb 29, 2000). "Global Warming: The Contrarian View".
• Lindzen, Richard S. (Mar 16, 2007). "On Global Warming Heresy". I am frequently asked to describe my experiences as a contrarian about global warming.
• Eilperin, Juliet (Oct 2007). "An Inconvenient Expert". Outside. That is Dick's natural personality—to be somewhat of a contrarian," Wallace says. "He feels he can work the argument and win. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |url= (help)
• Yang, Hu; Tung, Ka Kit (1998). "Water Vapor, Surface Temperature, and the Greenhouse Effect—A Statistical Analysis of Tropical-Mean Data". Journal of Climate. 11 (10). doi:10.1175/1520-0442(1998)011<2686:WVSTAT>2.0.CO;2. A contrarian view (Lindzen 1990) holds that the increased convection associated with the CO2-induced warming should act instead to dry the upper troposphere:

Of course there are many other such references. Despite Alex' bad faith and disbelief, it really is something that Lindzen is often described as, and not something that his fellow editors conspire to label someone with.

--Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Three more (reviewed) - just for measure:

• Grundmann, Reiner. "Climate Change and Knowledge Politics" (PDF). Environmental Politics. 16 (3): 414–432. Apart from the US contrarians (such as Richard Lindzen or Fred Singer, who are given very little attention [in German media])
• Boykoff, Maxwell T. "Media and scientific communication: a case of climate change". In Liverman, D. G. E.; Pereira, C. P. G.; Marker, B. (eds.). Communicating environmental geoscience. Special Publication no 305 (Geological Society Special Publication). Vol. 305. Geological Society of London. ISBN 1862392609. "Climate contrarians include scientists S. Fred Singer, Robert Balling, Sallie Baliunas, David Legates, Sherwood Idso, Frederick Seitz, Richard Lindzen and Patrick Michaels
• Broecker, Wallace S. (2006). "Global warming: Take action or wait?" (PDF). Chinese Science Bulletin. 51 (9): 1018–1029. doi:10.1007/s11434-006-1017-4. Further, as his detractors point out, Lindzen is well known for his contrarian views. For example, with equal vigor, he denies that cigarette smoking has been proven to cause lung cancer.

--Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Causa sui, please take some time to read, from beginning to end, the BLP policy. Your own response implies, by a literal interpretation of what you just said, and what BLP says, implies it is a BLP issue that should be raised here. I can understand you lacking patience with these disputes coming to BLP/N but that's not the point. Alex Harvey (talk) 23:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Causa sui says, "It may be wrong ... but one thing it isn't is a BLP issue." Let me say, then, that it is wrong, and it absolutely is therefore a BLP issue. It is very wrong, and it is very BLP.

In this specific case, we have a group of editors advancing a point of view by synthesis that Lindzen's professional views are not held in good faith. They quote, for instance, his Ph.D. student, Kirk Davidoff. This fabled off-the-cuff remark by Kirk Davidoff has come down to us without any context whatsoever. No one other than the journalist who quoted him & Kirk Davidoff himself really knows what K-D really meant. But one thing is almost certain, though, and that is that Kirk Davidoff would not have meant to say that Lindzen's view of global warming is not held in good faith, i.e. the view that the section is advancing. As such, we almost certainly have him out of context here. Likewise, Kim D. Petersen has certainly conceded on wiki before that he doesn't, himself, believe that Lindzen's views are not held in good faith. So what does that mean about this section we are repeating here? It means, we are, essentially, repeating the gossip & rumour in Wikipedia's voice.

This is a very, very serious problem. The fact that it has been tolerated, even encouraged, for so long in here does not make it any less serious, and there is indeed a very obvious way, and no other way, to stop these edit-wars from flaring every couple of days, and that is, each and every one of you, nicely tell the very small group of climate change advocates to stop, cease & desist. Alex Harvey (talk) 13:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Pete Townshend‎:

Resolved

 – controversial addition has been removed, the article is protected for 24 hours Off2riorob (talk) 22:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Pete Townshend‎ This was here recently, an issue regarding the operation ore children case, and there is a new addition being inserted as some kind of point that he said he was gay in a interview and that it turned out he wasn't, that this adds weight to the pedophile claims. I have removed it a couple of times as new controversial content that is being given excessive weight and actually seems to not have been widely reported and is weakly cited, the editor in questions has reinserted, I have asked him to seek support on the talkpage to add the content but he has found as yet no support but has reinserted, I have left him a 3RR warning but wanted someone else to look at the issue, the disputed content is still in the article at present. I have made two reverts to the article and the editor has left me a 3RR warning on my talk, there is also some discussion on the users talkpage where he declares his position. Off2riorob (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's the link to Talk Page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pete_Townshend#bisexuality.2Fhomosexuality

--Scieberking (talk) 06:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Douglas Blue Feather

Resolved

Douglas Blue Feather whose legal name is Douglas Bonnell is not an enrolled member of any of the three Federally Recognzied Cherokee Tribes nor can he verify his claims of Cherokee Heritage through other means such as showing a direct geneological link to at least one of the Cherokee Rolls. He claims Cherokee Heritage but this claim is unsubstaniated. There are many others who claim Cherokee Heritage such as Rita Coolidge, Chuck Norris,and Johhny Depp, who aren't listed as "Native American". Can someone be listed as being Japanese without proof just because they say they are? If not, then why is Douglas Blue Feather listed as Native American? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LightingBug (talk • contribs) 19:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't need genealogical documentation. The fact that Mr Blue Feather has been nominated for Native American Music awards see this Google search is good enough for me. Madman (talk) 22:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Douglas Blue Feather is a four time winner of the Native American Music Awards ( Nammys ) But the recipients of these awards are not asked to prove their heritage. Anyone could learn to play the Native American flute, get good enough at it, say their Cherokee, and win the award. With your argument, I could dedicate my life to studying Samoan Music and Dance, get good at it, and maybe even eventually be nominated for the annual Samoan Music Awards, and later win the top award. ( If one such exist ). This fact would still have nothing to do with me being Samoan of not. The controversy is not about how talented Douglas Blue Feather is on the Native American flute or how many awards he has one. Its about verifying his claims of being Cherokee/Native American. LightingBug (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC).

Brad Brock

Brad Brock is a typical local singer in a town of southern Florida. This person clearly does not meet the requirements to be in wikipedia as a noticeable person of interest to the world. They do not have a major contract and the sales figures are not verified by any reputable organization that tracks the sale of records by well known music artists. Clearly this is an attempt to gain notariety and advertisement online.-Robert Parten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.170.142.8 (talk) 23:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I am in agreement with this ip, there is a bit of a karaoke air about the singer, I have trimmed out the fluffy broken citations and also removed the only citations at the two linked albums, they were broken- no wayback or to a myspace or something, I have added a search template to the talkpage, and done a search there is nothing there apart from facebook or myspace, I don't really know the music notability levels, someone a bit more clued could have a little look, imo it is AFD. On his myspace he is doing karaoke tues wed and thurs at the fire station club. Here's the external [21] for the Karaoke details if anyone likes Karaoke. Off2riorob (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

If anyone would like to comment, User Coffee has sent Brad Brock to AFD, feel free to comment here . Off2riorob (talk) 12:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Nikolai Bezroukov

Nikolai Bezroukov

Nikolai Bezroukov: I could find very little primary information about him through a Google search. The article itself contains no citations, and the only things of interest that I could find were a few quotes from him and profiles on various social websites. The article has had the {BLP unsourced|date=June 2007} tag since 2007. I propose that this article be removed. Raztus (talk) 08:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Add a {{prod}} to it - and give your reasoning. If no-one objects, it will be gone in a week.--Scott Mac (Doc) 11:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Prod added, not notable, uncited. Off2riorob (talk) 12:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Semion Mogilevich

Semion Mogilevich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The introductory paragraph on this FBI Top Tenner is becoming a massive list of unverified charges. Someone also added that this person threw feces on a Russian diplomat in the infobox. I deleted that, but there probably is more that I don't have the time to go through. Jesse Viviano (talk) 15:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tamara Bane Gallery

Resolved

 – Deleted, result of AFD was delete Off2riorob (talk) 14:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've already reduced the article to a stub & fully protected due to potential BLP violations, but I'd appreciate if someone would like at the comments on the AfD itself and keep an eye on it. If it isn't deleted I think there will continue to be problems. I also did some minor editing at Hajime Sorayama about the same legal issues. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 17:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The article has been deleted, so no more problems there unless it's recreated. Dougweller (talk) 20:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I did an IAR close of the afd, if anyone has a reasonable complaint about it, let me know.--Scott Mac (Doc) 22:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Odette Krempin

Somebody alleging that much or all of this article is fraudulent attempted to nominate this for deletion by altering the archived version of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Odette Krempin. Could somebody take a look at the altered version in the history and follow up? --Orange Mike | Talk 18:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Odette Krempin

• Odette Krempin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Could use some cleanup and more eyes on this page please. Cirt (talk) 19:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed tons of garbage from the article, including a contentious claim that she is affiliated with UNESCO. Verification of existing claims still needed. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 19:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see here. This is a BLP nightmare, as English-language sources are virtually nonexistent. Suggest trimming to a stub. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 21:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. Cirt (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I have opened Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Odette Krempin (2nd nomination). --Spike Wilbury (talk) 16:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Ricardo Fort

Resolved

 – deleted Off2riorob (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Could just use some more eyes on it - lots of edits via IPs, some citing sources in Spanish (which I can't read well enough to make judgements about), many unsourced, some apparently derogatory. Gonzonoir (talk) 14:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Stubbed down, not notable drama magnet, speedied. Off2riorob (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Vladimir Correa

• Vladimir Correa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I closed a recent AFD on this article as Keep. I noticed some sourcing questions brought up at the AFD, so bringing it here for further attention. Not sure whether or not the sourcing concerns are valid, but of course they deserve additional eyes on it. Cheers, Cirt (talk) 16:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see also deletion review here. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

ec.. I had a little look and don't really want to click on some of those links for fear of what I might get to see. Off2riorob (talk) 16:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

There some sources, such as IAFD or IMDB that might be better dealt with at the reliable sources noticeboard or at WP:PORN. A couple of the sources used are clearly inappropriate sourcing - wikiporno.org is an open wiki, and another reference is actually a link to an image of a DVD cover on an online auction site.

The book sources do not appear to have any correspondence with the facts they are supposed to reference. They seem to be the result of a Google search simply pasted into the article to lend the appearance of notability. The More Dirty Looks reference is actually the same essay as referenced to The Culture of Queers. The essay contains two passing references to Correa in a discussion about performer Ryan Idol. It does not state that "he performed exclusively in the top role in anal sex with men, but performed in both the top and bottom roles in oral sex".

The Advocate reference is actually to an interview with Amy Poehler in which she refers to a video called "Inside Vladimir" and does not mention Correa. Another "source" is merely a quotation of part of this Advocate interview.

I'm not willing to spend the time to look closely at the rest of the sources, but I expect them to be similar. It is likely unproductive if I edit this article myself (since I nominated it for the AfD which it somehow managed to pass as "keep"), so if someone here wouldn't mind doing a bit of clean-up I would appreciate it. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)