Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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User:Captain Occam Unblock

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Resolved

 – Additional restrictions are vacated after independent uninvolved administrator review. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• On June 10, editor was blocked for a period of 2 weeks by User:2over0 for "edit warring, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, disruptive editing, and assumptions of bad faith".
• On June 11, 2over0 unblocked - based on an unblock request, specifically "Unblocked to allow participation at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence and associated pages only until expiry. It looks like your participation is vital to that case, and it would be unfair to prevent you from presenting your evidence. I have unblocked you for this purpose. I will make a note of this over there". This is therefore a de facto topic ban / editing restriction from everything else but that Arb case
• On Jun 13, Captain Occam requested an unblock - as he was not blocked, I declined and pointed him here, to WP:ANI - the same place he has been advised multiple times to come.
• On Captain Occam's behalf, I am requesting a review of the restrictions in place, with what I see as 3 possible solutions:

Option 1 - Complete Unblock

• Support until and unless specific evidence is brought forth to substantiate caims which seems to be lacking he4e. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Precisely because of this ArbCom case, it is now better to let him edit all of Wikipedia and only block him in case of very disruptive editing. Any mildly bad behavior which would normally prompt some form of intervention (warning on his talk page and then a block if this behavior persists) can now best be tolerated as how he behaves when not constrained is also relevant evidence in this ArbCom case. Count Iblis (talk) 14:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

  I'm sorry, but that seems that argument would result in absurd results. An editor named in an ArbCom case has a "free pass" except in case of "very disruptive" behavior? I'm not saying that I necessarily support the original block. but I can't really support overturning it. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

  Ok, I see that the "free pass" bit can be bit problematic, but at least let him freely all of Wikipedia during the ArbCom case. If I were an Arbitrator, I would want to see how this editor behaves in general on Wikipedia, what his interests are outside of this particular topic. E.g. it can make a lot of difference if you show the same signs of problematic behavior on all science related articles on controversial topics or only on the intelligence/race related topics. Count Iblis (talk) 14:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support for the same reason as Hell in a Bucket. Admin 2/0 has failed to provide any diffs illustrating edits by Occam that he finds objectionable despite the fact that several uninvolved editors have asked that he do so. David.Kane (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support - Based on the below, the user seems to have been obeying the terms of the unblock, seems like there is no problem. Looking at the user's edits prior to the block, he had not edited the article for 48 hours before the block. I see no justification for a preventative block. --B (talk) 15:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support. My assessment of this issue would be the same regardless of my opinion about the editor. An admin should not be able to block someone and refuse to provide specific examples and diffs of the user's behavior that led to the block, especially after being asked multiple times by a variety of people. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• Are you involved in a romantic relationship with CO? Hipocrite (talk) 18:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

It's really none of your business. You already asked me if I know him outside Wikipedia on my userpage, I answered honestly; anything involving personal details about how we know each other is irrelevant. It's not something that has ever been stated by us on Wikipedia or any page we've linked to, so I hope you're not trying to engage in WP:Outing here.

If you think I'm voting this way because of my personal feelings toward Occam, rather than that the block itself is unreasonable, then you need to realize this is exactly how the votes from several other editors in favor of keeping the block look to me. A lot of these people have been involved in content disputes against Occam, and as far as I can tell this is why they approve of him being blocked, even in the absence of diffs and specific evidence from the blocking admin. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 19:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Information and links to the fact that someone named "Ferahgo the Assassin" is/was the girlfriend of Captain Occam have been posted by Captain Occam multiple times on wikipedia, and is still in the archives: [1]. If you don't want this information on wikipedia you might consider contacting WP:OS to have that page (and this one, and any others where it has come up) scrubbed. aprock (talk) 20:38, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

This has been explained so many times already, I’m not sure what the point is in explaining it again. But I’ll do so anyway:

The only information that I’ve ever provided about my girlfriend’s identity is that my userpage used to contain a link to a DeviantArt community that I said was “my and my girflfriend’s”. The community has over 100 members, and there’s nothing on the page that I linked to which specifically identifies my girlfriend as having this Wikipedia account. However, by searching through this community as well as well as the personal DeviantArt accounts that Ferahgo the Assassin and I have linked to, Mathsci has claimed to uncover evidence that this user is my girlfriend.

If you think I’ve ever stated this myself, post the diff. All you’ve done is link to an entire 380 KB AN/I thread, and said the equivalent of “it’s somewhere in there”. I’m quite certain that the only people who’ve ever claimed this are Mathsci, and the various people who repeated this after Mathsci said it, which doesn’t give you permission to keep repeating the same thing yourself.

And incidentally, I have contacted oversight about this, and in response they’ve told me that it’s not possible for them to remove anything from AN/I threads. The fact that Wikipedia’s rule against outing can’t be properly enforced here doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to ignore it. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, based on what you've posted to Wikipedia, it's pretty clear that someone named "Ferahgo the Assassin" is/was your girlfriend. Whether or not the wiki editor of the same name is impersonating your girlfriend is a separate issue. I've suggested this before, but if this is stuff you're not interested in having on wikipedia, it's probably best for you (and Ferahgo) to just ignore requests to verify your relationship status. If there are issues with scrubbing this from wikipedia, that's even more reason to ignore any such requests. aprock (talk) 01:17, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

“Yes, based on what you've posted to Wikipedia, it's pretty clear that someone named "Ferahgo the Assassin" is/was your girlfriend.”

And you’re just going to keep claiming this while refusing to address what I said in response to it? I just told you: if you think I’ve said this anywhere on-Wiki, post the diff. (That is, a diff from me, not from Hipocrite or Mathsci.) If you can’t, then as far as I (and probably anyone else who reads this thread) is concerned, you’re putting words in my mouth that I’ve never said. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Let's be clear here - Captain Occam was open about his RL identity when he wrote his userpage initially. It took about ten seconds of not-even-googling to learn that Ferahgo the Assassin was his girlfriend, contrary to his constant protestations that it took some sort of gymnastics - however, to demonstrate this would be outing. Captain Occam used Ferahgo the Assassin as a meatpuppet before - and was not even a little open about it - see [2], [3], and multiple others. It is not outing to say that User:Captain Occam is dating User:Ferahgo the Assassin. It is outing if I were to say "Ferahgo the Assassin is Jane Doe" (She is not Jane Doe). It is a violation of WP:MEAT to recruit your real life girlfriend to campaign on wikipedia for you. Further, Ferahgo the Assassin recent wrote "I don't try to keep [my relationship with Captain Occam a secret and will answer honestly if asked"]. Where's the outing, exactly? If it outing if, to take a counterfactual, I was dating Beyond My Ken for someone to say "Hey, Hipocrite, aren't you dating Beyond My Ken? Isn't it meatpuppetry for him to recruit you to agree with him about topics you've never edited before?" Hipocrite (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

@Captain Occam: As Hipocrite said, posting the details would certainly constitute outing. If you restore your User page to a state where the scrubbed information is again displayed on the page, I will be happy to explain where you made it clear that "Ferahgo the Assassin" is/was your girlfriend. aprock (talk) 20:08, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

For Christ's sake. Can an admin please step in here and block these people who are trying to get an outing confirmed? The original question Ferahgo was inappropriate, both that editor and Occam have refused to confirm the allegation that's been made. Persisting on this topic is flagrant outing. Rvcx (talk) 20:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not clear from WP:OUTING whether relationship status constitutes personal information: Personal information includes legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, or other contact information. I don't think anyone has ever published that sort of personal information, only that the two are/were in a romantic relationship. However, that is a personal issue, and in general it's not something I'm really interested in. In this case, my only interest is in correcting the claims by Captain Occam and Ferahgo that this information was not provided on wikipedia. Had they ignored it, or not responded with misrepresentations, there would be little to discuss. At the admin level, this is somewhat of a complex issue. It's not clear how this relates to WP:MEAT, or WP:OUTING, especially since this information was provided by Captain Occam through his user page and discussions elsewhere on wikipedia. Updating the policy pages to directly address this sort of personal information would help here. aprock (talk) 20:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that pointing out two users' admission that they have a relationship does not constitute outing; hence no action from me. However, anyone posting speculation as to real-world identities or identifying information here will certainly and clearly fall foul of our policy - and shortly thereafter of some admin's tools. Perhaps not mine. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 21:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

SheffieldSteel, I don’t think you’re understanding the point here. This information has not been provided by me or Ferahgo the Assassin at Wikipedia, nor has it been provided at any page that either of us has linked to. I’ve asked Aprock and Hipocrite several times to support their claim that either of us said this by providing a diff, and both of them have declined to do so while giving a nonsensical reason why not. (If they think it would be outing for them to point to what I’ve said on-Wiki that they think proves this user is my girlfriend, how can it not be outing for them to keep repeating the personal conclusion they’ve drawn about me from this?) The link that Hipocrite posted that he claims supports his assertion about us is only Ferahgo the Assassin admitting she knows me outside Wikipedia; it says nothing about the personal details of how we know each other.

I’m quite certain that the reason neither of them can provide a diff in which either of us have said this is because no such diff exists. Is their unsupported claim that I’ve stated this on-Wiki is sufficient for admins to overlook their attempts to confirm non-public personal information about us? And if so, does this policy apply in other situations where someone claims this? If the only thing that’s necessary to get away with posting non-public personal information about another user is to claim that the user has divulged it themselves, and then refuse to provide a diff of where the user said this, it will be possible to get away with absolutely any instance of outing by making this claim and then refusing to support it. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The diffs from your User page were scrubbed because you were concerned about outing issues. There are diffs elsewhere, but since they would out you, providing them seems contrary to your desires. If you restore the scrubbed version of your User page, I'll provide the diffs. Alternatively, if you definitively state that you would like me to out you, I'll provide the diffs. aprock (talk) 22:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Umm, you’re still not being consistent here. If you agree that it would be outing for you to link to diffs in which other users were talking about the content that was removed from my userpage, why is it not outing for you to talk about the personal conclusions about me that you’ve drawn from this content?

You don’t have to answer this. I expect that an admin will probably be closing this thread soon, so hopefully when they do, they’ll also make a decision about whether what you and Hipocrite have been doing here is acceptable. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I referred explicitly to the WP:OUTING guidelines, asked for guidance and got guidance. If you want me to provide diffs, which would expose personal information as described in WP:OUTING, I will only do it with explicit permission from you. Alternatively, you could drop the whole thing, as I've suggested several times now. aprock (talk) 23:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support. There was no reason given for a block in the first place. The argument to continue it is that people didn't like the manner of the complaint about this? Stop the madness. The only thing being achieved here is the exposure of some serious favoritism, which warrants investigation. mikemikev (talk) 18:43, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Per Mikemikev and others above. Providing no diffs and then accusing an editor of "not hearing it" serves no useful purpose. I am involved (as of recently) at the R&I article and had seen no recent behavior which would precipitate a block--and is that not what a block is supposed to be about? PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:42, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Note to closing admin - The !votes in this section come almost entirely from those supporting Captain Occam's position in the referenced ArbCom case, and they constitute a good example of the complaints filed by Mathsci of predictable en bloc behavior and tag team editing from these folks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

By "almost entirely" you mean David.Kane and mikemikev, right? Because only 2 of the 7 "support" votes here so far are involved in the ArbCom case. In what universe is 2 out of 7 a majority?

Even if what you're saying was correct, how is it any different from the votes against the unblock? Muntuwandi and Arthur Rubin are both opposing Occam in the ArbCom case, and you’ve brought up your content disputes with him in several past AN/I threads even though you’re not involved in the arbitration. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:16, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I mean pretty much everyone in this section except Count Iblis. I didn't say they were involved in the ArbCom case, I said they supported Captain Occam's position in the ArbCom case, a claim that is easily evidenced by their editing and commentary throughout the many noticeboards and talk page discussions on Race & Intelligence. The closing admin should be aware that these !votes are here for reasons other than neutral evaluation of the circumstances, but instead are probably motivated by personal connections and ideologically-based sympathy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:59, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I don’t even know who B and Hell in a Bucket are. The past day is the first time I’ve ever interacted with them. I also had never interacted with Vecrumba before around a week ago, and I have no idea what his viewpoint is about this topic; he’s stated a few times that he has no idea what mine is either.

This is a rather lame attempt to try and disrupt the consensus which seems to be forming, coming from one of the group of people who appear (based on their comments in past AN/I threads and on the R & I talk page) to have long-term grievances against me, which make up more than half of the votes in favgr of keeping thm ban. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:13, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Occam. Beyond my Ken should be commenting on the opinioins given not the id of the people giving it. WOuld this somehow be more valid if he brought this up? Just saying.....Hell In A Bucket (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, block !voting -- the core subject of the ArbCom case under consideration -- is akin to meatpuppetry, and does not legitimately establish a consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, "The !votes in this section come almost entirely from those supporting Captain Occam's position in the referenced ArbCom case, and they constitute a good example of the complaints filed by Mathsci of predictable en bloc behavior and tag team editing from these folks."? It's quite simple, an editor was blocked with a pile of accusations and not a single diff. I don't even know if I support Occam's editorial position or not at the article, but let's pile on the bad faith crap. Oh, and "anyone who disagrees with someone else who disagrees with me/someone I'm against is a meatpuppet." Really, this "note to closing admin" is not helpful whatsoever. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support complete unblock, unless or until there is some explanation for the original block. This block seems to go against the basic notion that blocks are practical and not punitive. Further, it really looks like this was an admin making a statement about the parties to the ArbCom case (which concerns, among other things, whether "editors in good standing" deserve special treatment); there is at least as much cause for blocking User:Mathsci. Whether the appearance of favoritism is accurate or not, the block severely undermines faith in admin neutrality. Rvcx (talk) 22:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

No administrator has so far shared your views, even though you have posted them now in many forums. I believe I'm in good standing with 8,200 content edits and about 40 articles created. Because I've participated in various ArbCom cases, I'm also known to various members of ArbCom. Most administrators can distinguish between an WP:SPA and an editor who adds quite a lot of content in a wide range of areas. As far as WP:CPUSH is concerned, here is a classic case. What you have written above verges on a personal attack and I would ask you please to refactor your comments. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Your content-free claims to special privilege on the basis of number of edits (which, I should point out, would be reduced by a factor of five if you'd ever learn to use the "Preview" button and stop littering Wikipedia's live pages with typos) have no relevance to the matter at hand. Thanks, Rvcx (talk) 23:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't claim any special privilege. You on the other hand have just tag-team edited with two WP:SPA editors that have recently been blocked. I wonder whether your advanced skills with the preview button would help you write The Four Seasons (Poussin), Handel concerti grossi Op.6, Differential geometry of surfaces or Europe#History. You seem to have a lot of advice to offer, but very few content edits. Mathsci (talk) 04:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support complete unblock unless the original block has any evidence to it. Blocks are not punitive, but preventive, so if the blocks don't prevent anything, the block is not valid. The restrictions put in place seem pretty harsh—only edit the ArbCom pages? Until he disrupts Wikipedia or evidence for the original block is provided, a completely unblock should be put in place. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 23:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support complete unblock until admin who issued the block deigns to give his reasons. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:51, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• Note to closing admin - Two of the three editors who have !voted since my comment above are also members of the block in question. I make it that there are only two three !votes in this section from non-aligned editors. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC) (miscounted) Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Note to Ken There is nothing wrong with their opinions and to exempt them solely because they agree with Occam at ARBCOMis beyond ridiculous. You don't have to have completely unbiased people to make a consensus, unless there is a policy saying those who agree with you are exempted from doing it. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. !Voting in a block distorts any actual community consensus that may be forming, by misrepresenting the balance of the discussion. Admins are not supposed to count noses in determining consensus, they're supposed to take into account numerous factors, such as the quality of the arguments, and among the many things they should consider is block voting, such as has occured here. An uninvolved admin may not be aware of the en bloc behavior of the hereditarian faction involved in the Race & Intelligence dispute, so I think it is helpful to point it out. Absent the !votes of that block, there is no clear consensus in this discussion at all, which will, presumably, leave the status quo in place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

So you'll have no problems pointing this out with a official policy disqualifying them from arguing on this persons behalf? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

So, @Beyond My Ken, is it the case that a "block" one disapproves of evil and a block one agrees with is consensus? It's a small step from conspiracy theory to witch hunt. Let's not go there. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

@Hell: I never said or implied that they were disqualified from arguing on behalf of Captain Occam, what I said was that the closing admin should take into account that they are part of a !voting block and act accordingly. That is why I slugged my comments for the attention of the closing admin. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:33, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

@Vecrumba: The evidence of block behavior on the part of the heredetarian faction is very strong, and has been presented by numerous editors here and at the ArbCom case. No similar array of evidence has been presented for other block behavior, but if it exists, I expect that someone will present it to ArbCom. There's no witch hunt here, no wild conspiracy theory - anyone who's followed this issue over the last few months can see the clear behavioral evidence of block behavior. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:40, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

So there isn't a problem with not shouting from every section you didn't agree with that those people are involved, if what you say is correct the admin will be able to sort this out without you throwing the seeds of dissension and decide on the arguments merits without the color commentary. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Option 2 - Reblock for remainder of original block

• Support. (1) It prevents further spilling out onto pages covered by the topic ban, and (2) It gives Captain Occam what they want - an opportunity to request an unblock, and contest the original block. TFOWR 14:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC) Part struck, re-signing. TFOWR 15:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Except that it should get reset to a new two weeks. When you evade a block, it starts over. --B (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC) User had permission for edit, does not seem to have violated terms of block. --B (talk) 15:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support This not the first time Captain Occam has edit warred over race and intelligence articles. He has been doing so since October 2009. This 3RR noticeboard archive report shows Captain Occam made 10 reverts to the race and intelligence article within 24 hours and continued edit warring 3 days after his block expired (diff to report). Occam is fully knowledgeable about edit warring and the consequences but was edit warring on Talk:Race and intelligence/FAQ according to the article'srevision history. Furthermore the administrator Georgewilliamherbert placed race and intelligence articles on a 1RR [[4]], which Captain Occam was fully aware of, even citing it in this diff .[5]. I see no reasonable excuse for edit warring. Unblocking him would set a very bad precedent and would be a punch in the gut to those editors who while being bold, have avoided edit warring. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support - The complexities of this situation are entirely the result of the attempt by the blocking admin to show latitutde to Captain Occam so that he could participate in the ArbCom case on Race and Intelligence. Instead, Captain Occam chose to post on Jimbo's talk page, in contravention of his unblock conditions, and has refused multiple suggestions that he take his appeal here. In addition, only in the last day has he taken advantage of the purpose of his unblock and posted to the ArbCom case. The easiest way to reduce the uncertainties of this situation is to restore the physical block and have Captain Occam's participation in the ArbCom case continue by proxy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• In reading this over, I realized that my comment may be taken as criticism of the blocking admin, but that was not my intention. I think 2over0's actions were an admirable attempt to be very fair to Captain Occam. It's not his fault that CO has taken advantage of it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:19, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support Participating in an arbcom case that isn't about you isn't a right. He should never have been unblocked to participate in it.--Crossmr (talk) 22:33, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Option 3 - Remain unblocked, with original editing restrictions intact for the duration of the original block

• Support 3 Although the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT has continued on Jimbo's talk page, requiring Bwilkins to bring this here against Occam's wishes, I support the restriction until the expiration of the original block. Would change to 2 if problems persist, and editor could post AC comments on his own talk (as has been done before). CO has been extended a lot of good faith here. Verbal chat 14:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support per verbal. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 14:43, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Confirm community ban for remaining duration of original block length (pending explanation of original block - I might disagree at that point).--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:51, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support Per Verbal; I agree that allowing him to appeal to the God-King is a extension of the original relaxation of the block. I don't yet agree with option 2, but I could be convinced. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support Just reading this made me dizzy. You keep asking the same thing over and over and kept getting the same types of responses but you would reject what information you were receiving. I don't think that there is any single dif to show the behavior. I think it's the overall way you react to things. You really WP:IDHT. I think the block should stay and if this behavior of ignoring what other's say is repeated then I would say to make the block again without assuming good faith that you will stop the disruptive behavior. Sorry, --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:31, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: Although I am recused from this particular case, I can state that it is a common practice to unblock an editor with restriction to participate in an Arbcom case in which the editor has a notable interest; such appears to be the case here. Since his unblock is specific to his participation in the Arbcom case, his focus should be solely on providing evidence and commenting on the workshop page of the case. Risker (talk) 06:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

CO Unblock Discussion

Discussion and !votes above would be appreciated. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:13, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not want to discuss this here. And it’s not because I’m afraid of being blocked again; it’s because every recent thread here that’s involved me or the race and intelligence articles (which the subject of the ArbCom case for which I was unblocked) has turned into a mudslinging match about the content disputes over these articles. Several other (uninvolved) editors who’ve commented on the thread in Jimbo Wales’ user talk understand this also. If this thread is allowed to continue, it will likely turn into nothing but a colossal waste of everyone’s time, just like every other recent thread here on this topic.

Is it permissible for an admin to force me to appeal my block here when I specifically have a desire against that? If I’m being disallowed from continuing to discuss it in Jimbo Wales’ user talk, I can bring it up at the Arbitration Committee Clerks’ Noticeboard, per EdChem’s suggestion. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, another question: if this thread degenerates the way I’m predicting, am I going to be accused of forum shopping if I attempt to appeal my ban in the ArbCom case? If so, I want this thread closed right away. An administrator does have the right to essentially take away an editor’s right of appeal, by using it against the editor’s will in a channel that the editor has specifically stated that he does not want to pursue. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:43, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If you wish to appeal your block, you can email the blocking admin or use the {{unblock}} template. Your block was removed soley for the purpose of participating in the arbitration. Editing here and Jimbo's talk page are is not permitted. --B (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

B, he was already denied on unblock based on the grounds that he wasn't blocked, and told that he would not be blocked for participating here. Catch up, please. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:48, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Fixed --B (talk) 14:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If CO continues down this path, I'd change my support to option 2. As B says, he can then request an unblock. However, I would expect his refusal to participate here (not that his participation s required) would look bad to any admin. Verbal chat 14:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

B, the blocking admin also has specifically given me permission to request information about how to appeal my block in Jimbo Wales’ user talk.

He gave that permission retroactively, after you had already violated the terms of your unblock by posting on Jimbo's page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:19, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If people are going to be voting here without being familiar with the details of this situation, I recommend that everyone also read the discussion about my block in 2over0’s user talk. (2over0 is the admin who blocked me.) Since he did not provide any specific examples of what my block was based on, four different users have asked him to please explain in detail the justification for my block, but he’s failed to respond to any of them. As explained in ImperfectlyInformed’s comment there, a single admin also does not have permission to enact editing restrictions without any community discussion; to do so would be an example of discretionary sanctions, which is a failed proposal. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:57, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, editing Jimbo's talk page was a relaxation of your restrictions, showing exemplary good faith by 2/0 as you had already broken the restriction by posting there. Verbal chat 14:59, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Verbal if this case was as clear cut as you claim, Occam would still be blocked and there would be a flood of diffs to prove this was a prudent course of action. I for one would like to see the diffs proving the allegations. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I haven't said it was clear cut. He's been given a lot of leeway, and decided to continue his WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Verbal chat 15:04, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

You're repeating yourself without proving anything. Can you please show us why these are needed? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(ecX4) Indeed, I don't feel that we require CO's additional participation here if he does not wish to: this discussion and !votes can be made based on the contributions that are visible to everyone. In effect, it's a group response to an unblock request, only it will remove any and all doubt. Indeed, he was told that he would not be blocked for filing this, nor for commenting here. I was tired of seeing the lack of direct action, and am otherwise uninvolved in the entire situation (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If the community isn’t able to come to a consensus either way (which is what I’m predicting will happen, and that’s another reason I suspected that discussing this here wouldn’t be productive) what will that means in terms of my editing restrictions? Since there was never any community consensus for these restrictions in the first place, it seems like this would just leave open the question of whether the restrictions are valid. (That is, whether 2over0 had the authority to implement discretionary sanctions on an article where Arbcom hasn’t authorized them, and whether it was acceptable for him to do so without providing any diffs of objectionable behavior from me, even when he was asked for them.) --Captain Occam (talk) 15:33, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Conditional unblocks are extremely common - yours was a conditional unblock. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

You will ultimately lose that appeal The only person other then 2/0 to remove it would probably have to be Arbcom if no consensus can be made here. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I need to apologize to Captain Occam. I was looking at this strictly as a question of whether or not the editing restrictions were obeyed, rather than as to whether or not the underlying block was appropriate. He hadn't edited the article for two days before the block. Blocks are preventative, not punitive and once I looked at the actual edits, I don't see a reason for the block at all. The editing restrictions should be removed. --B (talk) 15:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Note Just in case no one looked, 2over0 has not been here since 6/11.--CrohnieGal^Talk 16:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

He was still online and editing other Wikipedia pages while people were asking him for an explanation of why he blocked me, though, as well as for a few hours afterwards. The fact that he went offline shortly after this doesn’t explain why he never responded to anyone’s questions about this in his user talk. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:13, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Review of BWilkins unblock decline

(out) Incidentally, I believe BWilkins' description of Captain Occam's circumstance as "a de facto topic ban" is quite wide of the mark. In fact, what Captain Occam is under is nothing more or less than a de facto block. If the software had the capability of blocking someone from everywhere but specific places, that option would have been used, and CO would only have been physically able to post on his talk page, at the ArbCom case, on Jimbo's page and here (Jimbo's at CO's request and AN/I as the proper place to appeal his block). That physical capability is not available, so 2/0 allowed a conditional unblock for those areas only. In point of fact, Captain Occam is virtually blocked from every place on Wikipedia except those 4 places, which is not at all like a topic ban, where one is allowed to edit anywhere on Wikipedia except the place where the ban is in place. The two situations are mirror opposites, not equivalents, so describing CO's situation in that way is entirely incorrect. For this reason, Fqb's suggestion that CO use an unblock request was perfectly apt, and BWilkin's declining to countenance it on procedural grounds was not only very un-Wiki-like, but incorrect as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:34, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that public undressing, but "Blocking is the method by which administrators may technically prevent users from editing Wikipedia." If CO was currently unable to edit due to technical means, then he would be blocked. He is technically able to edit. Period. If you want to discuss that in a better forum, let's do so - but don't detract from the point that someone finally tried to provide resolution to a situation. There was enough disruption and badgering taking place on Jimbo's page, that nobody else needed to continue it here. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Let's please be clear -- I think your decision to bring this here was a good one -- Captain Occam had "beat around the bush" (so to speak) for quite a while, and it's good that you forced the issue to a decision by bringing it here. But that doesn't change the fact that you should have dealt with his unblock request as an unblock request on his talk page, since he was (and is) de facto blocked. Your decision was a bad one, and (like all admin decisions) is subject to scrutiny from the editing community. Your apparent conviction that he was topic banned is demonstrably incorrect and unsupported by the evidence, and you should have expected it to be second-guessed when you brought the whole megillah here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy to have my own actions reviewed, so I have made this into a separate sub-section, so that it does not detract from the issue at hand. I have clearly stated why I declined the unblock on the user's talkpage, Jimbo's page, and elsewhere. I stick by the decision that it was not an unblock request that was required to appeak a conditional unblock because he was not technically blocked as per WP:BLOCK - if anything, it was closer to WP:BAN as it was a socially-imposed condition. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• A few things need to be clarified here. A conditional unblock is the equivalent of a de facto restriction because it is a socially imposed condition rather than a technical means of preventing someone from editing. Conditional unblocks can be listed at WP:RESTRICT under "final warnings", though this is not a requirement like with formal community imposed editing restrictions. This is because a conditional unblock is not effected with a community consensus; therefore, an administrator may lift the condition because it does not require a community consensus to be lifted. However, should a reviewing administrator prefer to send the appeal to the community or have his/her action reviewed by the community for any reason, that administrator is entitled to do so. Theoretically, it could also be appealed to ArbCom or Jimbo, but practically, they would expect (or be expected to assert) that the community is to consider such an appeal first because they are a "last resort". In this case, 2/0 (the administrator who imposed the condition) requested that the restriction be considered by the community (at ANI) should the sanctioned user desire to appeal - should another administrator have refused to comply with this request and lifted the ban anyway, it would be predictable that 2/0 or someone else would have brought it here. In this particular instance, Bwilkins actions are therefore sound, and both Fqb and Beyond My Ken were/are off the mark. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Concur. I'll also note (as BWilkins did) that Beyond my Ken did not attempt to address this issue with BWilkins at his talkpage before bringing it here. Syrthiss (talk) 14:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah - he brought the issue here, I responded here. There's no need for back door discussions when the front door is open. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Note: I'm the one who added the heading, as even though B my Ken felt it "incidental", there was a clear and strong questioning of my action, and I'm open to such critique (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the main point of my critique, it seems to me that refusing to deal with an unblock request because, in the admin's opinion, a conditional unblock is more like a ban than a block, is process for the sake of process. The block was imposed by a single admin, and was made conditional by a single admin, and the usual and normal block procedure is for a single admin to review it when an unblock request was made. The community need not get involved unless the admin requests a review of the block, which normally happens here. The only practical difference BWilkins' choice made was to muddy up the situation unnecessarily; however, as I stated above, I do applaud his fringing the issue here (where it would have gona in the normal course of events%, despite the sqbject's fear of having his case reviewed by the community at large. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if Beyond my Ken is drama mongering or acting in good faith. IMO he seems to be trying to discredit anyone with a opinion that differes from his own. In this BWilkins did do the correct thing by directing the editor to here. Granted it could've been handled anywhere but a topic ban should always be decided by the community. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Jeez Louise, if I'm "drama mongering" I'm doing a damn bad job of it. No, this really is good faith concern on my part, in this case about unnecessary process, a concern I've raised in the past in completely different circumstances as well. I have no desire to rake BWilkins over the coals, nor do I have any opinion about his administrative actions in general, I simply think his take on the situation was wrong and his actions made things unnecessarily complicated. Obviously, others disagree with me, but that's what makes horse racing, politics and Wiki-discussions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Beyond my Ken is one of the main reasons why I wanted this issue to be resolved somewhere other than AN/I. There are a few editors who show up in nearly all of the AN/I threads related to these articles and generally turn them into mudslinging matches, and Beyond my Ken has been one of the worst examples of this.

I was also worried that his doing this would prevent the thread from reaching a consensus, regardless of whether or not my ban is justified, but it looks like the opposition to my ban is strong enough that this might be happening anyway. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

He's made his point, and whichever admin counts the !votes and determines consensus will take it into advisement, I'm sure. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:50, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Will that be happening soon? This thread seems to have served its purpose: there are four votes to completely re-block, five votes to keep the current restrictions in place, and ten votes to completely unblock. At this point, the only remaining discussion seems to be Beyond My Ken and Hipocrite attempting to drag out the issue and muddy the water, and I don’t think allowing the thread to continue down this path will accomplish anything.

If an admin doesn’t close this thread soon, I think it would be best if everyone stopped replying to both of them. By continuing to reply, we’re only contributing to this thread being diverted from its original topic, and making it more difficult for an uninvolved admin to make a decision about it. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

A marvelous example of the passive/aggressive behavior BWilkins pointed out on your talk page, Captain Occam -- reiterating the bogus !vote count from above as if the objection about block !voting had never been raised, at the same time getting in a dig at those raising the issue -- all while moaning about how badly you've been treated, when, in fact, you've been on the receiving end of an extraordinary amount of special treatment -- justifiable special treatment, but special nonetheless. I'm only sorry that the middle option (return to straightforward block) didn't receive more support, so that you could see the difference between what it means to be blocked, and what has happened to you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I find it pretty ironic that I’m the person who’s been accused of Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT here. I know, I know I said that I wouldn’t reply anymore… --Captain Occam (talk) 20:18, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I guess I'm pretty dense. I don't see any "irony" and I don't know what it is you think I'm not hearing. I hear perfectly well that my point's been made, and there'd be no need for me to restate it if you hadn't barged right it and acted like it never existed. I'd be quite happy to let it lie, if you would agree to as well.

Pax? Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

My point was that nobody commenting here other than you thinks that the “alignment” of the users voting makes any difference in this thread. Even some of the “non-aligned” users apparently think this idea is ridiculous, but you don’t seem willing to accept what they have to say about it either.

I don’t expect you to be willing to change your mind about whether this makes a difference or not, but if you’re willing to acknowledge how many other users disagree with you about it (both “aligned” and “non-aligned”), I guess I’m willing to let this drop. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:12, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't concur with your analysis of the situation, which overstates things in a way that's quite inaccurate, but I have no desire to delve further into your misapprehension, as it's essentially a side issue. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

According to Occam " there are four votes to completely re-block, five votes to keep the current restrictions in place, and ten votes to completely unblock". The way I see it, options 2 and 3 are similar in that they both advocate for an editing restriction of some sort, with option 2 advocating a stronger restriction than option 3. They are not entirely separate, so it would seem that the number of editors favoring a restriction roughly equals those who don't, especially when we discount the COI of meatpuppets. Wapondaponda (talk) 03:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I regret my experience with the use of "meatpuppets" is that it is a code word used to discount the "side" one disagrees with. Let's just deal with the issue of a block with no supporting documentation provided with the block. That is a question of procedure, not a popularity contest. If you have specific accusations, then please make them in the appropriate forum, not here. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 03:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikilawyering

I think there is way too much wikilawyering taking place. We need to step back and look at the bigger picture rather than debating whether this is a block or a topic ban. Let us imagine there was no arbcom case, Occam would have been blocked and would have had to go through the normal appeals process. This is what all the blocked users on the edit warring noticeboard have to go through. By coincidence, Occam is involved in an Arbcom case, and because there is a deadline for submitting evidence, it is only fair that Occam participates. It is for this reason only that Occam was conditionally unblocked, and nothing else. Most blocked editors listed at the edit warring noticeboard are not involved in an Arbcom case, and therefore do not even get conditional unblocks. They do not get a chance to post on Jimbo Wales' talk page or to post an unblock appeal on ANI either. I therefore believe that Occam has been given a lot of preferential treatment, that most blocked users don't get because he is coincidentally involved in an Arbcom case. The main problem here is inconsistencies in the application of the blocking policy. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. However the one thing that is really really lacking and killing this case is the refusal for the blocking admin to participate here. I would be open to reviewing the evidence for this block if the admin would discuss. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Muntuwandi, if I could’ve just used the unblock template and gotten an admin to review my block in the normal fashion, I would’ve preferred that. I suspect that most uninvolved admins would have overturned a block that was implemented without any specific explanation of what it was based on. But because of my conditional unblock, the unblock template was removed on a technicality, and now I’m having to go through this protracted AN/I argument that (as I stated above) I would have much rather avoided. What you regard as “preferential treatment” for me, I regard as nothing but a massive inconvenience required of me in order to achieve the same result (appealing my block) that I could have achieved much more easily otherwise. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Wish I was a wikilawyer. I could charge 300 wikidollars a wikihour, and show my wikiskills in the wikicourtroom. It'd be wikisweet... HalfShadow 18:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Review and decision

This is an unusual situation - we rarely impose the type of edit restriction that limits someone to Arbcom case responses only, though it's been done a number of time. The admin who imposed it also has become idle for 5 days. Community "votes" also aren't exactly a standard way of resolving issues with blocks.

Logically - the edit restrictions were a modification to the original block. The place to start in determining what to do going forwards is reviewing the specifics of the original block.

In the days leading up to the block, Captain Occam focused editing on the Arbcom case and on the talk page of the Race and intelligence article. Having reviewed all the threads there, in the days leading up to the block, Occam edited in a manner which was somewhat milder than the prior months, was discussing largely in good faith, and was not doing anything out of the ordinary for the situation currently under arbitration. There were extensive fruitful multiparty discussions going on on the talk page.

The underlying content and behavioral issues at play in the Arbcom case can be seen in the ongoing activity, and perhaps it would be best for all parties if we simply lock the article from editing for the remainder of the case, but the editing slowed down significantly over the last few days (since I full-protected for 1 day on June 8th). It was certainly not worse than prior times.

I believe that the block was done in good faith. However, I believe that in retrospect, nothing was going on at the time of the block that was out of the ordinary or beyond that already subject to normal Arbcom review and needing admin intervention. Admins should not be afraid to enforce policy normally against Arbcom case participants, but we also shouldn't focus overly critically on them. Arbcom will make any out-of-the-ordinary decisions required.

Had there still been an active block I'd overturn it at this point. Given the edit restriction was a replacement for that, I believe that it should just be vacated at this time.

This is not an invitation to resume any disruptive behaviors. However, reasonable normal behavior with due respect for the Arbcom case underway is not a problem for the encyclopedia or community.

As an uninvolved admin, having reviewed, I am doing so. The additional restrictions in place on Captain Occam are vacated. I am going to copy this section to WP:ANI, the Arbcom case workshop, User talk:Captain Occam, and User talk:2over0.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Comment on Georgewilliamherbert's review

(copied from ArbCom workshop) Georgewilliamherbert's review of Captain Occam's behaviour on Talk:Race and intelligence and Race and intelligence prior to the block does not seem to be accurate. He seems to have failed to notice that Captain Occam was reinserting material rejected by consensus for the third or fourth time. This behaviour of Captain Occam is typical. Here is another example of WP:CPUSH [6]. Georgewilliamherbert is making value judgements about content and failing to notice long term behaviour, which is precisely the problem with WP:CPUSH. Mathsci (talk) 07:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Occam didn't edit the article between my full protection of the 8th for 24 hrs ending and the block. He had made 2 relatively minor edits (in comparison) earlier on the 8th, and a long series on the 6th which were immediately reverted by someone else without fuss.

Occam's edits on the talk page for the days leading up to the 10th were, as I said, in the context of friendly and productive multiparty discussions on the talk page and were not disruptive.

We are arbitrating whether there's a problematic long term pattern. The arbcom case is the place to plead that case. We are not supposed to use admin discretion to presume the outcome of the arbcom case while it's in play. If Occam had done something serious during the case that's one thing. What he did leading up to the block was clearly not serious and urgent requiring admin attention despite the Arbcom case, and doesn't justify the block.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

At this point this is at Arbcom. They will catch shit either way they decide but maybe it's best left there to be decided because [[WP:CPUSH}]] is advice and not official policy. I'm actually somewhat surprised by this action as well but at this point I think there is a lot of eyes on the situation now. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 07:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert had placed race and intelligence issues on a 1RR restriction, Captain Occam violated the 1RR restriction by edit warring here. Captain Occam was blocked for edit warring, which was later amended to a conditional block and has now GWH has vacated these restrictions. My question for Georgewilliamherbert is what is the point of making rules if they are not going to be enforced when editors violate them. I think it is only fair that when rules are made, they are enforced because some of us take these rules quite seriously and we get demotivated when we abide by them, and others get a free pass for violating them. I am sure everyone knows the feeling you get when this occurs. Wapondaponda (talk) 08:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A number of parties violated the original 1RR. That calmed down and had not acted up again when the block occurred. Again - Occam hadn't edited the article between the protection and his block. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Making a single-handed decision when a community discussion (based on precedence) is ongoing? Just, wow. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
• The ruling of Georgewilliamherbert is justified on the basis that the blocking admin did not provide reasons for the block. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC).

E-mail from 2/0

Just as a matter of record, I had contacted 2/0 by e-mail while the community discussion was ongoing, and received this response today:

Thank you for letting me know. If it is still a going concern, would you please mention that I am moving and am suffering unexpected delays in setting up my internet access? Clearly, I endorse whatever conclusion the community reaches, though I do express some hope that people who comment do due diligence by reading the relevant contributions first. Thank you for your help in this matter.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Nutriveg?

Nutriveg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and I are in dispute about the proposed wording for the section Abortion#Health risks. Nutriveg is a long-time contributor to the page and I came to the page two weeks ago following a request from MastCell (talk · contribs) at WikiProject Medicine for more input. My impression is that there are two rough groupings of editors: those who have a pro-life perspective and those who object to favouring that. I'm sure that each grouping sincerely believes that they edit in line with the neutral point of view, but a conflict has been underway there for a long time before I came into it.

After an edit-war on 8 June, editors were cautioned and one editor was blocked temporarily. On 10 June, Nutriveg was blocked for 24 hours following an ANI report (for edit-warring over his removal of reliable sources that he questions), and the page fully protected.

Since then the dispute has moved to the talk page (currently 365 kB), and I have concentrated on trying to get editors to find sources related to the issue. Doc James put forward six sources, but Nutriveg is always able to find an objection to any suggested source. He eventually accepted one source (that didn't mention the figures for maternal mortality rate) and crafted a piece of text that reflected that source alone. I have consistently objected to discarding other sources, as they raised other issues, but Nutriveg has now unilaterally decided that the scope of the text should be just that which his preferred source covers, and then claimed that I was the only editor holding up consensus. This is a manipulation of the fact that most of the editors found all of the sources reliable, including his preferred source, allowing him to claim that that single source had the approval of all editors. I proposed an alternate text that I believed covered all of the issues raised by all of the sources, and suggested mediation of an RfC to to resolve the dispute between us.

So far this is a content dispute, but Nutriveg then, without discussion, posted an informal "request for comment on the talk page", phrased in such a way to define the scope of the dispute in his own terms, and making no mention of my proposed text. He then notified the participants on their talk pages, asking them to express their opinion on his text. When I responded by adding further questions to present my side of the dispute, he removed them from the section and created a new section for them, thus marginalising my side of the dispute. His claim is that they are a "different discussion". I replaced my proposals into the original section and cautioned Nutriveg that I regarded his refactoring of my talk page contributions as disruptive and that I would seek sanctions if he repeated that. He then reverted me, putting my part of the RfC back into the section he wanted, and removing my warning. I will not further an edit war by reverting him, but I cannot accept the degree of ownership that Nutriveg exercises over both the article and its talk page. It makes it utterly impossible to work in a collaborative manner while he feels he can dictate the terms of any dispute resolution. I am now unable to exercise any further AGF and request that uninvolved eyes review the conduct of editors at Abortion (mine included) to find a solution.

I request that action be taken be taken to prevent Nutriveg from edit-warring on the talk page in order to marginalise those he disagrees with; and that, if necessary, he receives a topic ban to allow consensus to be formed. I will now step away from the focus of this dispute and will not edit the article or its talk page until such time as the dispute is settled. --RexxS (talk) 20:58, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I've left a warning. I agree that the ownership needs to stop, and that the refactoring of your comments was quite unjustified. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 21:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(As an involved editor): There is a behavioral issue here, which is fairly pronounced ownership and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on the part of Nutriveg (talk · contribs). He's pretty much checked off every tickbox on WP:OWN, been blocked for edit-warring, and swamped the talk page with impenetrable repetitions of the same arguments. Refactoring others' talkpage posts would be a logical progression. The wellspring is what I think is a fairly deep misunderstanding of sourcing policy on Nutriveg's part, combined with a resistance to taking on board outside input.

It started with Nutriveg removing material from The Lancet and other mainstream medical journals, because some of the authors were affiliated with Guttmacher. The talk page thread is here; notice he also dismisses the WHO as a reliable source in the same thread. It goes downhill from there; this heroic effort, in which literally dozens of reliable sources are rejected by Nutriveg on various goalpost-moving grounds, is typical but not unique.

RexxS and others have actually been much more patient than I, but I think everyone is reaching the limits of their tolerance. I think progress can be made - in fact, the article has enjoyed periods of relative calm when Nutriveg has been away from it or blocked. There are a number of solid editors working there right now. I would strongly favor asking Nutriveg to leave the article for a few weeks, because I think that will lead to a lot of constructive progress. I'd actually be happy to stay away too, if people are concerned that I'm pushing to have a "content opponent" sanctioned. In fact, if something is not done about Nutriveg's editing, and soon, I'll leave the article anyway in the interest of my own sanity.

Again, please take this as the input of an involved editor, with whatever grains of salt you think are appropriate. MastCell ^Talk 21:38, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a long time contributor to that article. You joined that discussion answering a call from MastCell where he did so in a campaign tone: "I will say upfront that I personally think that the interpretation of WP:MEDRS being pushed on the talk page is extreme and divergent from the actual content of the guideline" What basically guided your contribution to the article so far, taking lightly about WP:MEDRS and pushing for the use of all sources.

In another moment yourself also decided to campaign in that same place using the same kind of biased messages.

You joined that discussion redoing a change of MastCell early did, what eventually lead to an editing war and the blocking of that other user that reverted once.

Later you started raising minor issues, like complaining of any source ever "removed" from the article without caring about in what context they were (re)moved or having a good argument to support of how they should be used. In the between you kept asking for the interference of a specific administrator who had earlier showed disagreement with me (SheffieldSteel above), which finally led to an ANI open by that same administrator and my blocking.

Later you took the same strategy, this time more careful about the content of the sources you were pushing, to decide to push for the use all the sources in the article, instead of the one that better fit MEDRS and was commonly agreed to fairly represent the problematic issue in discussion, except for you (RexxS) and your fellow MastCell, that changed his former minor restrictive opinion on that issue to a completely different one, maybe after seeing you pushing so much for that position.

You make claims that "your discussion" was moved when it was you who created a new section in the middle of an existing section which already had comments from another user and me addressing the issues immediately above in a serious provocative action of disrupting that consensus building process. You repeated that action, when that discussion had further evolved, to move that discussion section, reinserting your questions in the middle, at the same time you also commented in that same discussion section so I had to have the extra work of readding that commentary beyond reverting your discussion section move.

Now you create this ANI about that discussion you were a minor voice at the same time you call other users who had problems with me in the past (Doc James bellow) to join this ANI discussion.

Your way of handling these content issues to lead them to administrative actions in a scenario yourself is a major problematic actor is what I truly call disruptive!--Nutriveg (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I say that (Lloyd, 2005) "satisfies our needs for sources" this in no way means we should limit ourselves to only this source. And while the second suggested wording is okay it can be improved upon / clarified.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Nutriveg, I have no "dog in this race", and I thought I was trying to paint a fair picture by referring to you as a "long-term contributor". You have 56 edits to Abortion, while I have one, where my edit summary was "please don't remove sourced content without good reason". My apologies if I have misled this forum. I hope than anyone reviewing the links that Nutriveg has provided would be able to conclude that I have acted in good faith throughout. I have tried to be reasonable, while maintaining my stance that reliable sources are the solution, while removing or rejecting them is the problem. Nevertheless, if anyone here feels that I deserve censure, then I will accept that, and look to improve in the future. I now see that Nutriveg still does not believe that moving my part of the RfC to a new section twice is both refactoring and edit-warring. Please note - it's not entirely clear from the diffs - that I added my questions at the end his questions (below a level 3 sub-heading, "Another option"), while his action was to remove it from the section he created and make it in an entirely different level 2 section with a new title. The ownership of the talk page continues and there is a real need for uninvolved administrators to review the situation. --RexxS (talk) 23:47, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Your behavior so far is one of trying to create administrative problems. I started editing this article just a few weeks ago. While recently you're the only one stopping article progress toward a commonly agreed solution for a specific problem by insisting in using all sources and lately insisting for the discussion of many new unrelated issues (developing countries, unsafe abortion) in the middle of an very problematic unfinished discussion about a restricted point that is taking several days. You may have had the opportunity to make few edits on the article, but in the last two days you've been the single loud dissident voice, since the very moment we were almost reaching consensus.

Now you create this ANI under false claims I moved a discussion section, when it was you who initially moved that discussion section to the end a section you created, an action I had to revert for the sake of continuing that discussion that already started, but you inserted unrelated questions in the middle of the existing one, that I had to properly attribute their authoring to you.--Nutriveg (talk)00:12, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Having watched the debacle unfold I can only say that the original complaint is spot on. I see issues with WP:NPOV, WP:OWN, WP:GFCA, WP:V, WP:RS, (WP:MEDRS) added to unfamiliarity with circular reasoning, the scientific method and confirmation bias. In short somebody is fighting for The Truth. At this point a RFC regarding behaviour appears more apt than on article content.--- Nomen Nescio ^{Gnothi seauton}_{contributions} 23:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: looking at other (pseudo)science-related articles I feel we have a widespread attempt by the anti-science crowd to teach the controversy, which may need a general approach. Include all science (inclusion criteria?) articles in the original ArbCom case?--- Nomen Nescio ^{Gnothi seauton}_{contributions} 00:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Nescio, make yourself clear. Abortion is medical practice not (pseudo)science, as isn't epidemiology the subject of the (so) problematic sentence we have been trying to address. While my suggestion for that sentence was the one which reached more (if any kind) of consensus so far, so I'm clearly interested about the better representation of that issue. There's no disagreement about the essence of that sentence, the only problem is a couple of editors trying to give more attention to a issue than the (few) sources themselves, felling exempted to follow WP:MEDRS criteria for something if they believe that's true and deserved of exceptional attention. And a specific editor (RexxS) trying to WP:WIN by destructing the discussion process when consensus is being reached and forging situations that he can later call for administrative interference. Please keep bias outside of this discussion!--Nutriveg (talk) 00:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

(Pseudo)science = pseudoscience + science. Iow, my suggestion is that the ruling on pseudoscience might/should be applicable to science-related articles such as abortion. --- Nomen Nescio ^{Gnothi seauton}_{contributions} 00:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Changing comments after others responded is a big no-no. Please resist the urge to do so in the future!--- Nomen Nescio ^{Gnothi seauton}_{contributions} 00:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

That's sometimes called edit conflict when two editors are still editing their comments and other write something. It's not my problem if you analyzed and answered my comments so fast, at the same time I saw problems with my commentary and was fixing those. If you likely want to complement your former answer I'll likely understand that as good faith.--Nutriveg (talk) 00:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

This ANI matter began with a complaint by RexxS about certain talk page edits by Nutriveg. Before those talk page edits by Nutriveg occurred, RexxS madethis talk page edit, and I am curious whether people think this RexxS edit was okay or not. My cursory look at the RexxS edit suggests that it may have inadvertently altered the meaning of another editor's comment by putting new material immediately prior to that other editor's comment. In any event, I would urge Nutriveg to only edit talk pages when doing so is clearly appropriate (e.g. removal of vandalism), and the more appropriate thing in this instance would have been to ask RexxS to move his own comment to a less confusing location.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The general practice in content RfCs is that following any preamble, questions come first with support/oppose comments below each one. Further general comments then come below that in a discussion section. I added my questions (3,4,5) below Nutriveg's (1,2) and before the "---" which marked off the general discussion taking place below. If someone can suggest a better position for my questions than immediately below the previous ones – bearing in mind that I firmly believe I should have the right to offer alternate proposals in a content RfC – then I'd be happy to hear it. At present there is still the appearance of two RfC's being conducted at that talk page. --RexxS (talk) 10:46, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

RexxS, whether Nutriveg was right or wrong to move your comment(and I'm not sure yet), I think it's pretty clear that the moved material was at least somewhat confusing. You inserted it immediately before another editor's comment that he had "no particular opinion about the phrasing specified above.". Thus, you made it seem like the other user had no objection to your phrasing. That seems like a no-no to me, because editors must not change the meaning of other editors' comments. Moreover, even if this were a formal RFC, I think the person who starts the RFC should get some deference regarding the format. If it were a user RFC, for example, I don't think the subject of the RFC would be entitled to modify it much.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I should mention that I am involved at the article in question.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:55, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify Anythingyouwant point: it wasn't just another user who had commented in that section before RexxS moved it in the first time. The second time he moved that discussion section it had even more comments. Those comments there were clearly about the two questions above, where RexxS isolated that discussion section by moving it to the end of a new section he created, where he starts that new section by expressing his own opinion about the topic above instead of using the already created discussion section he moved to end of his comments/questions and where theses issues he pointed could be further discussed in a consensus building process. Those questions RexxS created weren't about the same issue: if (Lloyd, 2005) was a source that satisfied our needs for a updated reliable source about a specific problematic sentence, which has been discussed for several days. The questions he created were mainly about other issues he would like to see better represented in the article (developing countries/unsafe abortion, increased risk risk of complication with increasing gestational age), when many of these issues were already represented in that article (in the same "health" section, in other sections and specific articles) which content he is not well acquainted since he assumes to have edited that article only once, reverting an edit and so reinstating a recent change that was already reverted twice, what eventually lead to an edit warring that resulted in the blocking of a user that reverted that recent change another time. In all those cases RexxS made that move he took care to comment in that or another section at the same time he moved the discussion section, without making those two distinct actions clear in the edit summary, turning a revert of that move inherently problematic since that had to be done manually where he later could say I was making a deliberate move when I was actually just reverting his own move.--Nutriveg (talk) 12:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Obviously this is not the venue to go into a content dispute. There are real behavioral issues here, and administrative oversight and/or intervention is sorely needed to help address them. RexxS is not the problem - in fact, he's been more patient with Nutriveg than most. MastCell ^Talk 18:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You are the ones seeking administrative actions to silence those voices in disagreement with your supported POV in an content dispute.--Nutriveg (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

What POV is that? The one in all the sources that you're trying to exclude from the article? If the situation were as you painted it, you wouldn't have been blocked by an uninvolved admin. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:41, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I won't discuss content here. But I can say that POV is one of pushing for WP:SYNTH, WP:UNDUE and showing little respect for WP:MEDRS, specially the when it talks about the use of up to date sources, a requisite ignored in face of the very few updated sources supporting such POV.

I was blocked for being a minor voice under such same kind of attack that created this ANI, by those same POV supporters, including you which early said to be neutral, but now revealed your real position in that content dispute.--Nutriveg (talk) 21:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You were blocked for edit warring, a form of disruptive editing. When an involved admin warns you about your conduct, you complain that it is a content dispute. But when an uninvolved admin sanctions you, you really ought to pay attention to what they say. That is partly what blocks are for.

You accuse unspecified other editors of POV pushing, but you seem unable to define the POV that you think we are pushing. Is it perhaps the view that abortion is safer than childbirth? That is certainly what all those reliable sources seem to say on the subject. Your POV, on the other hand, is evident from your first edit to Abortion, where you (whether through malice, impatience or incompetence I do not know) misrepresented a source in order to get a pro-life talking point into the article. And yes, you are correct to observe that I am now happily wearing my editor hat, getting involved in content discussion at the article talk page, and improving the article. It makes a refreshing change from wearing the admin hat all the time. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 21:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

There's no POV in that I just saw and used the information in the head of that news article, it's there, you recognized once already, so stop making false accusations against me and assuming bad faith on my edits.--Nutriveg (talk) 22:07, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I helped write WP:MEDRS, and if I'd known that someone like Nutriveg would be allowed to misuse it as a bludgeon, I'd never have bothered. You cite MEDRS constantly (usually advocating a doctrinaire interpretation of one of its subclauses to override its actual goal of producing comprehensive medical coverage). But you don't understand it, and a number of editors have tried to help you better understand it, to no avail. Here you remove PMID 15096333 (a review article) with the claim that it's a "tertiary source". In fact, as WP:MEDRS clearly defines them, review articles are secondary (and preferred) sources. So despite your constant appeals to MEDRS, you don't understand its basics, you translate your misunderstandings into edits that detract from the article, you don't listen to anyone who tries to discuss things with you, and you edit-war to keep your misunderstandings in the article. What should we do about this? MastCell ^Talk 22:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict, twice)This is not a place to discuss content, you deleted a tertiary source and included a secondary source contradicting the previous text, then I reverted such edit to restore that deleted text/reference to later reinclude the new text and cite the secondary contesting the tertiary one. You should not feel exempted to follow a policy just because you feel you're the source of true.--Nutriveg (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

What do you think of: "At this point a RFC regarding behaviour appears more apt than on article content."--- Nomen Nescio ^{Gnothi seauton}_{contributions} 00:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I suppose. But the last time I dealt with tendentious editing on an abortion-related article, it took six months of begging for administrative intervention, followed by a futile user-conduct RfC, followed by a drawn-out Arbitration case, just to deal with a single obstructive editor (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Strider12). I don't have the patience or time to spend another 6 months dealing with this. RfC's tend to be useless when the central problem is that the user refuses to listen to anyone who disagrees with them. MastCell ^Talk 00:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Nescio, you should not repeat the same mantra until you get support for it, and you should have waited to listen to the other part before taking conclusions about MastCell accusations above .--Nutriveg (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I find it f***ing unbelievable that after repeatedly being warned to stop you continue to rearrange talk pages in order to create an incomprehensible mess. Not only that but you cowardly disguise your manipulation by calling it "edit conflict." Having seen your total disregard for policy I will comment on the article and more specifically the techniques used to obstruct and obfuscate.--- Nomen Nescio ^{Gnothi seauton}_{contributions} 00:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

AGF and all that jazz Nescio. Heck, I just ec'd with you when you just edited your last comment. Arkon (talk) 00:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

AGF is a two way street. Let's see. My first warning, above, is about a so-called ec with 13 min in between his two edits. Unfortunately he missed my response when altering the initial comment (see above) so was unable to just leave it and make a new response. The just above you will find the following timestamps 1 MastCell Talk 22:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC) -question by MC- 2 Nomen Nescio Gnothi seautoncontributions 00:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC) -my response- 3 MastCell Talk 00:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC) -response by MC-. For reasons beyond my comprehension at 00:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)!!! Nutriveg is moving the three comments I cite out of the way in order to ... why exactly? The original discussion is at best difficult to recognise. Regarding amending my own comment, you may have noticed that nobody had responded yet. Which of cource is the principal difference between the two actions! As a rule of thumb I allow small alterations, but only untill others respond. Then I will not change but add a new comment.--- Nomen Nescio ^{Gnothi seauton}_{contributions} 01:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Come on! I was answering MastCell, looking for diffs and stuff, then when I hit submit I got an edit conflict from you, rearranged my comments in another page so I could submit again, answered you and ... another edict conflict from MastCell. Now Arkon,(sigh) don't put the blame on me if you're so fast to emit an opinion.

To make clear my last edit was 00:03, when then I started answering MastCell here, then you edited 00:05 (when I was probably still editing), when I tried to submit I got an edit from you, tried again (as described) and got one from MastCell (00:17) and I could finally submit the answer only 00:20, and didn't edit elsewhere in the between. I'm sick and tired of people assuming bad faith with such frequency.--Nutriveg (talk) 00:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I see Nescio has been doing some recent edits in Abortifacient so please provide a disclaimer next time you get involved in discussions of issues you're already a content editor.--Nutriveg (talk) 02:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Section break. Disruption continues

Nutriveg is edit warring again diff. Every time there is a dispute, Nutriveg will discuss and discuss on the Talk page, but will always revert the article to their preferred text. This is not the collaborative editing environment we should be working in. ETA I left a hand-written warning about edit warring and asked Nutriveg to follow WP:BRD and it was removed with this comment. They've been blocked already. What will persuade them to collaborate? SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked Nutriveg for 48 hours, for edit warring. He has 4 reverts in the last 24 hours, and seems unwilling to listen to warnings ([7]). His last edit to the article ("It already was discussed and you were not there. Undid revision 368390001 by SheffieldSteel (talk)") indicates an unwillingness to work through disagreements by discussing them. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:ShalomOlam

User:ShalomOlam has made two blatant reverts to Gaza flotilla raid which is under a WP:1RR protection, in contradiction with the long discussions and consensus on the talk page. The diffs are [8] and [9]. The user received multiple warnings from other users regarding his recent POV edits and reverts on the same article, both on the article's and their own talk page. Please note that it is a sensitive semi-protected article about a current event. Numerous users already received a 24-hour block for violating its 1RR restriction. Thank you. --386-DX (talk) 21:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

These 2 edits that I have made were according to previous discussions in the talk page of the article. These are not my POV (or any POV), on the contrary - they were made to make the article more neutral. ShalomOlam (talk) 09:59, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Your edits were not in line with the general consensus on the talk page. Even if they were, it doesn't really matter. --386-DX (talk) 12:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to act based on what happened yesterday. However, "I'm moving it back to the current talk page consensus" is not an excuse for violating edit warring restrictions, including the generic 3RR and the article specific 1RR here. If this happens again someone is likely to get blocked. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

ShalomOlam's excuse ("they were made to make the article more neutral") is not admissible, but a series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. -- tariqabjotu 12:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Strange edits that I did not make appear in my contributions.

Resolved

 – Admitted to trolling on his talk page, indefblocked. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

This is Rohedin, what I am about to tell you has been happening for some time, but I feel that someone else is editing in my account to make contributions to soap opera lists. I did not report this right away because who ever is editing in my account has not done anything that leaves me unable to use the account.

Even though the answer might seem obvious and simple to make, I am still pondering on if I should just let this guy continue to make harmless edits to my account or if I should ask someone to provide me with a list of IPs that might have been using my account. What do you think I should do? Rohedin ^TALK 23:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Please change your password. Is there an example of a particular edit that you did not make? Is it possible that a roommate, family member, or coworker is using your computer or that you left yourself logged in on a public computer? --B (talk) 23:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

List of All My Children cast members. Rohedin ^TALK 23:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Perhaps you saved your password on a public computer or friends computer and they are editing without realising that they are editing on your account? It is possible that your password has been hacked but this seems less likely if the edits are constructive. Perhaps changing your password would resolve this issue? Have you tried doing this?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:31, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

You're saying this is not you? That's from today, so that probably points to either you stayed logged in somewhere or someone guessed your password. Either way, change your password to something secure (letters, numbers, and symbols). --B (talk) 23:33, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I believe someone was editing via my account. Rohedin ^TALK 23:35, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just change your password, it's the easiest way if you still have access to your account. If you don't, but you have an email set, you can email a new password, then change your password. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 23:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

You may also want to check your email address, under "My preferences", to ensure that it hasn't been changed. MastCell ^Talk 23:38, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

And also, you should set a hash and leave it on your userpage to prove your identity, in case you lose access to your account; see the bottom of my userpage as an example. (For more information, see Template:User committed identity.) That way, you can prove you regain access to your account if you do so through other means (such as emailing a new password) if you are blocked, as admins typically block compromised accounts indefinitely. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 23:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

A checkuser would be able to tell if more than IP had edited using your account. Looking at the difference in topics, I have to ask if there is a female member of your household who could be using your account by accident? My partner is also a wikipedia editor, and we have to be careful that we switch to our own user settings every time we use the pc, or we could end up editing as each other. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Changing your password would be no help if you use a password list, and someone in your house is using the computer.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:42, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If you change your password, it logs you out of any other computer where you are logged in. --B (talk) 23:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking that if Rohedin uses Firefox, it automatically stores the changed password. He hasn't come back to us to say if there is a possibility that his sis/mom/gf is using the computer. If they are, changing the password won't fix the problem.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I use Firefox and Ubuntu 10.04, no one in my family has an understanding of Linux. Rohedin ^TALK 23:57, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

They wouldn't need to - in fact, it's more likely to happen if they don't. Does each member of your family have a separate logon, or do they just turn the computer on and load up Firefox? If it is the latter, then what is happening is that Wikipedia routinely holds a logon for 30 days. So if your partner/sister or whatever goes to Wikipedia, it's automatically logged in as you. If she takes a look at the cast of whatever soap opera she's interested in and makes an edit, it will appear under your account. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• Please request a password change immediately. From what I can tell, the edits you claim you did not do are done from a different geographical location (Near Milwaukee). I'll keep an eye on your account, and if it edits from that location again I will block it as compromised. — Coren ^(talk) 00:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you run a CU on any users that were blocked in Milwaukee? I would really like to know who this guy is. Rohedin ^TALK 00:16, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Even if I did, I would not disclose that information. Sorry. Please simply fix the problem by changing your password posthaste. — Coren ^(talk) 00:18, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I have, but I am going to search and find a person with a similar editing style and see what I can do from there. Rohedin ^TALK 00:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

98.144.48.89 (talk · contribs) appears to be in Wisconsin.   — Jeff G. ツ 03:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

What was this: [10] either the user doesn't have control of their account or they're just running around vandalizing. they should be blocked until this is sorted.--Crossmr (talk) 00:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Crossmr. This has gone from hypothetically bad to actually disruptive, so blocking until the problem subsides is advisable. — Gavia immer (talk) 00:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I am in control of my account. No foregin I.Ps have sailed on this account since the ANI topic. Rohedin ^TALK 00:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Then you should be blocked for whatever that was. Both of those edits were disruptive.--Crossmr (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have indef blocked the account (as either compromised, or vandalising). -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 00:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I may be stating the obvious, but if this guy changed his password and then it got rehacked, it may indicate that his computer is infected with a trojan and/or the malicious user has his email account password. A computer reformat might need to be done based on what has been said here.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 01:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Whichever admin reviews this mess and the unblock request, I'd very much urge a really careful look at Rohedin's editing history before granting the unblock. It is quite possible that Rohedin is a previously blocked/banned user who is just playing some game and yanking everybody's chain here. Rohedin started editing on May 27, 2010 and it is pretty clear that he is not a new user. Within several days of opening the account, Rohedin proceeded to do the following things (among others):

• Opened an RFC, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies affecting deletion outcome, where he complains about the banning/blocking practices being too tough
• Plunged into SPI investigations, such as Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/MidnightBlueMan/Archive
• Plunged into a number of ANI threads
• Started a bot, Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/TotalDramaBot
• Nominated an unprepared user for adminship, see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Hadger
  • The RfA was nomination was for a user who was clearly not ready and several participants characterized the nomination as "trolling". I myself thought that it looked rather fishy. Among other things, the RfA page was quickly vandalized by a couple of IPs, including User:98.198.230.37 here[11] with a message "I love newgrounds [...] TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLS WILL RULE NEWGROUNDS!". Note that the very first page created by Rohedin just a few days earlier, was about Newgrounds Linux, currently userfied at User:Rohedin/Newgrounds Linux.
• When questions about his possible prior accounts were raised at his talk page, including by an admin User:Rodhullandemu, Rohedin pointedly refused to answer them. See the June 4 version[12] of Rohedin's talk page, section "Prior usernames".

Now he says[13] (at Coren's talk page) that his current account is hacked by some other sockpuppet, User:Onelifefreak2007 who, according to Rohedin, "turns out to be a blocked user who does follow the same style of editing". All this sounds as rather too much to me. Nsk92 (talk) 02:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I became aware of this account more or less straight away, and was concerned that no new user would be making such edits. When I challenged the editor, I got no reply. Perhaps an SPI report would have clarified the position then, but I let it pass. However, what has happened since does not fill me with confidence as to this user. He claims "computer savvy" but cannot even secure his own account. I do not think so. If he's on the level, let him start a new, clean account. If he's a sock, let him be cast into the eternal pit of damnation. Rodhullandemu 02:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Swastika concern

This may be nothing, but Rohedin nominated the article Swastika for Good Article status [14] -- despite never having edited it -- and was immediately turned down [15] because the article was nowhere near meeting the standards. Recently, two socks of Pickbothmanlol, Main Edges, and Kalakitty were identified after using swastikas in their sigs. Given the strange behavior of Rohedin, and this boast by Kalakitty "I happen to have another account that I edit from my aunt. I have a account already about to be over one month old that you will not find unless you know what town from North Florida I am using to evade your stupid blocking," I have to wonder if something socky isn't going on here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I was having the exact same suspicions. (X! · talk)  · @218  ·  04:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Kalakitty's parting remarks indicate that Pickmanbithlol sees this as a kind of game. It looks to me possible that Rohedin got bored with just editing, and, annoyed that no one was picking up on his new identity, cooked up the whole compromised account drama to stir things up, and then did the nomination of Swastika to see if anyone would pick up on the signal. If that is the case, things didn't work out quite as they wanted, because they're currently blocked -- and perhaps it's best if they stay blocked, now that we know that the strange edits on AN were definitely made by Rohedin and not the putative account compromisor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Considering the fact that an IP has logged in from a different geographic location, it is very likely this account was compromised. But after looking at his edits and the edits from his IP, I am certain that this user has used at least one prior account (not witholding WP:AGF if I'm wrong, but I very strongly doubt "Rohedin" was his first). However, I am unconvinced that this user is the same person as Pickmanlol, although I do acknowledge the possibility given Kalakitty's May 25 block and Rohedin's May 29 registration, in addition to the swastika issue (but I think it's likely a coincidence). Master&Expert (Talk) 06:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's just odd for an editor to nominate an article they've never been associated with in any way for Good Article status, especially when the article was not close to meeting that standard. I found it strange, but I suppose it could be a coincidence. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I saw a notice on Luke's talk page which can be found here. I didn't recognize the name so I went to take a look and brought my questions to Luke about what was mentioned on this user's page about being a blocked or banned editor but to give them a chance. [16] You can find the dif in the dif I provided to Luke. This is apparently a new account from an old account. Look at the history of the user's talk page. This user was asked by Luke about the comments and the reply was that they would only share with arbom via email if my recollections are correct. (I haven't looked at it today or recently.) I believe that maybe Luke could add some insight to this too. Hope this helps, --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Change to block rationale / review welcome

After reviewing Nsk92's issues outline above; the other comments in this thread; Rohedin's comments on his talk page; his edit history; and the edit history of some of the trolling accounts mentioned above, I think it is clear that (a) the account wasn't compromised last night, and (b) Rohedin is a returning troublemaker, very likely Pickbothmanlol. Thus, I have changed the reason for his indef block from "compromised account" to "repeated disruption, very likely abusing multiple accounts". If someone wants to file an SPI, they can copy/paste some of this discussion, although since the decision is made I don't know that there's a point. If someone wants to disagree with this block, we can discuss here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Um, nevermind, no one is going to disagree with this block. Resolved. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

For formalities' sake, as the original blocking admin, I agree with your change of the block reason. Good call! -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 18:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:RohanMalik1999

Resolved

 – RohanMalik1999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is blocked indefinitely as a sock of MrRohanM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 00:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

RohanMalik1999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm not really sure where to go with this. The editor repeatedly uploads non-free images without descriptions/licenses and moves pages using edit summaries like "because" or "cuz i said so". They have been left numerous warnings and notices on their talk page, but never respond to them, nor do they seem to amend their ways. While I believe there may be an language barrier issue involved, it gets old having to "clean up" and/or correct their edits (add licensing etc). They're trying to honestly improve Wikipedia, but how much is an "improvement" worth, when it only creates more work for other editors. --nsaum75^{¡שיחת!‎} 00:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I also believe they may be a sock of blocked user MrRohanM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ... --nsaum75^{¡שיחת!‎} 01:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Now he's just straight engaging in sock puppetry. RohanMalik1999 indefinitely blocked as a sock puppet. –MuZemike 02:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Legal threat and COI

I just read a talk page post by User:Sven_nestle on talk:Violence_Against_Women_Act. He claims to be involved in legal action to appeal the Violence_Against_Women_Act law and stated in his talk post:

"Anyhow I do not appreciate technocrats nor feudalism. Leave my words alone. If there is better criticism fine. But deleting all criticism might just get you sued."

Now, I've advised him of WP:COI, WP:TGP and WP:NLT but should he be blocked until he withdraws this? Since the threat is not directed at a specific user I haven't blocked him but I'd appreciate input as if he does not withdraw the remark I will.
Also, since this person claims to be involved in a case related to his law, he should not be editing this article per WP:COI - I'd appreciate mor eyes on the page in case my advice is ignored. Any input would be welcome--Cailil ^talk 03:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

That was a little vague to block over, but I'll go reinforce your warning. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Sven has continued the behavior after warnings yesterday. The legalish-threat was minor, but they're violating WP:BATTLE, WP:NPOV, and WP:COI on the Violence Against Women Act article and its talk page. I have left a final warning on his talk page a little while ago. If they continue past that final warning I will block; if I'm offline and more happens, I urge other admins to review and act if they feel it's appropriate. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on this as well re: WP:BATTLE and WP:OWN. He's also not engaging with our talk posts - which isn't helping--Cailil ^talk 00:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

He seems to have been using the IP 70.174.180.147 account (as a logged-out editor rather than a sock) which was blocked, for 31 hours, tonight by Excirial--Cailil ^talk 02:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I was looking at that; they both have long edit histories and edit date ranges for the two overlap, but they have distinctly different sets of articles they work on, right up until the last couple of days. I think the IP editor is someone else.

We could ask for a checkuser SPI to confirm that, but I'm inclined to think it's likely enough not the same user that we can leave it alone. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Help required

Hello. Today I requested that the redirect "Dum Dum Diddle" be deleted per CSD G6, since I created a new version here. However, administrator Nyttend declined the speedy with the explanation here. The problem is that initially the "temp" page was dedicated to another article, "One Man, One Woman", which was previously restored by User:Juliancolton per my request. This is why the page history has to be separated before performing the move, and after the move, a history merge is required. I hope I managed to clarify the situation. Best, Qweedsa (talk) 15:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, could you explain that a bit more clearly? Fences&Windows 22:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

That's the whole reason that I declined, since the request wasn't clear. Nyttend (talk) 13:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I can see what he's done. The article on the song One Man, One Woman was created by User:Insaneace1 on 20 March 2007. It was AfD'd in Feb 2009 with a keep result on 14 Feb, but User:LtPowers redirected it to The Album. On 1 June 2010 Juliancolton transfered a copy of the article, including all the history, to user:qweedsa/temp so qweedsa could write an article about the single One Man,One Woman. However, qweedsa couldn't find any sources to establish notability, so he decided to scrub the page content and turn it into an article on another Abba track (from Arrival), called Dum Dum Diddle. The page Dum Dum Diddle already exists as a redirect to Arrival (ABBA album), because User:Insaneace1 also tried to create a page for this track, and an AfD resulted in a redirect to the album.

queedsa wants you to delete the current redirect page, so he can move his article into mainspace. The two reasons that you shouldn't do it are:-

1. It will make an enormous screw up out of the history, as qeedsa's article started out as a different topic, and the current redirect has a previous article in its history
2. IT STILL ISN'T NOTABLE.It was only released in Argentina, it never charted, and the only place that it gets a mention (and the only source for the article) is the sleeve liner notes for the album.

Hope this helps.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Tony1/delinking scripts - failure to correct obvious errors

A handful of editors have for a while now been running delinking scripts across hundreds of pages on the project, which have the effect of removing internal wikilinks to terms that are described as "common". The cited justification is the wording of the wp:overlink guidelines, which does indeed suggest not linking terms that are common, but with a specific exception to that when they are relevant to the topic. The guideline of course does also stress navigability as being a key aim behind wikilinking. I first noticed this a couple of months back, when one of the editors stripped links to France from the article on French wine. Broadly I agree that there is probably too much redundant and trivial linking on articles and I would support most of the removals in most cases, but I have occasionally tried to raise the issue with those editors when I've noticed problems with the effects of these semi-automated removals. Very occasionally I and others have restored the odd link, often in turn to find that one of those editors comes back to remove it again.

Anyway, there does not seem to be any broad consensus for this "campaign" or for the running of scripts, or as to what terms would be seen as "common" or "well known" enough for links to them to be removed on each and every occasion they occur, regardless of context. There has been a lot of discussion on this (see my talk page, WT:LINK). Perhaps the wider issue is something that needs to go to an RfC, but in the short term there does seem to be a need for admin intervention. One editor, Tony1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), recently ploughed through around 60 articles on Australian TV programmes, stripping out not only every link to Australia - which may or may not be a good thing - but also removing links to items in the Categories and See Also sections and hence messing up the format of the page, eg with this edit. I raised this on their talk page, pointing out the mistakes, here. They simply deleted my comment (their edit summary refers back to a previous talk page thread, where they had previously made light of genuine requests from both myself and another editor to be more careful and manually review the results of their script). They have since made no effort to correct their mutiple errors - instead one of the only two article edits they have made since then rather pointedly involved themheading off to a page they surely know I have on my watchlist, the Champagne article, to remove links, at least one of which I had previously restored some time ago.

The other reason that admin intervention of some sort is perhaps warranted is that we seem to be heading down a similar road to the one that ended up here over the delinking of dates, with many of the names involved oddly familiar. N-HH talk/edits 16:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

If the example you gave is characteristic, this is a total mess. Tony1 should stop until he can get proper consensus for this or at least exercise some common sense and double-checking on these script edits. The crusade against overlinking seems to be removing perfectly valid links (including category links) indiscriminately. Fences&Windows 17:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• I have no problem with the de-linking of common everyday words and places. I have not seen Tony1 de-link a word I think should be linked.  Giacomo  17:53, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

To clarify: I don't have problems with most of the removals. There are, despite that, occasional issues about removing for example each and every link to France from pages about things from France - issues that several other editors have commented on over the past few months - but these are not the point either of my post here on ANI. The problem here, as noted in my post and the one example diff provided, is with removals that are manifestly wrong, and which muck up formatting and take pages out of categories, and then with an editor deleting and ignoring comments that bring it to their attention. If Tony won't sort out an obvious problem when I point it out to him - and then makes an edit to another page clearly designed to needle me - I'm going to go and ask for help. Our interactions to date have been largely friendly, albeit based on slightly heated disagreements at times (see my talk page), by the way - this is not a personal spat of any sort. N-HH talk/edits 18:02, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Was Tony was never specifically sanctioned regarding future automated delinking? That would seem to have been an oversight if true. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

According to Tony1 topic banned, an indef from guidelines on date linking, and via Tony1 restricted a 1-year ban from reverting said linking in articles. Curious timing that the latter expired only yesterday, though. Tarc (talk) 18:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, then, it is an oversight. It should have been apparent at the time that any restrictions of this sort would be followed to the letter and not the spirit. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

No, not an oversight -- if you look down a bit in that case, at least one person was banned from any script-assisted editing, so it's plainly a remedy that was considered, but rejected, in Tony's case. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 11:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I just reverted a whole bunch of his recent script-assisted edits -- while a couple of the ones I reverted were valid, the vast majority left non-links in the See Also sections or unlinked categories. Someone else might want to do a few more of these, as they're kind of messy.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:12, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You should never use the rollback feature to revert good faith edits! Rollback is for reverting vandalism, you should have used the Undo function or fixed the edits (which I've tried to do by the reverting has made it harder then it would have been). Bidgee (talk) 05:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

My two cents... the delinking campaign causes these issues largely because of a dogged insistence on the part of the handful of editors doing the majority of delinking that their opinions are the only valid opinions, and that anyone who disagrees with them is just plain wrong, wants to link everything, and so on. (I'll freely admit that Tony and I have been at loggerheads over this for ages now, stemming back to his unilateral rewrite of the "What to link" and "What not to link" sections of the linking guideline in July 2008.) The reality is that while many people do agree with the notion that there is overlinking - multiple links to the same article, overly simplistic words linked, and so on - there is no established consensus regarding the use of these scripts, the haste with which the scripts are being used, and the insistence that non-linkworthy "common terms" include a wide range of cities, countries, major world events, religions and the like that Tony et al feel readers "should know". Moreover, the list of "common terms" is presented as nigh-on policy, but is actually not even easily accessible by other editors as it is buried in the depths of the delinking script. As I've said repeatedly, there is certainly merit in cleaning up the truly overlinked material. However, the problems we're facing are centred on the opinions driving this campaign, which has seen arguments that (for example) New York City is not a valid link in an article about that city's subway system, and that the article Canada does not warrant a single link to United States. Editors who disagree are told that the delinking is all about "improving the reader's experience", but are also told that readers who want to find these "common terms" are expected to use the search box instead of a link. Sadly, this is at its core yet another MoS-related dogfight, with much fervour on the part of the participants and little or no interest (or even awareness) from the community as a whole. We need to determine a consensus as to what the larger body wants, not just what the MoS gnomes feel like arguing over, and it should be resolved before the actions are taken on such a wide scale, not after. --Ckatz^chat_spy 21:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a fair summary of the problem. We might need an RfC to sort this out, and Tony1 could be heading for a block for disruptive editing, or another sanction against using scripts. Fences&Windows 22:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

An RfC would probably be the best approach for a long-term resolution, and I personally would prefer to see some form of restriction on the use of the script; at the very least, the "common terms" list should be discussed and also made easily accessible for input and change by any editor. As for the idea of a block, even without the personal involvement I'd be reluctant to endorse such a move at this point in time as I think that Tony1 honestly feels he is doing the right thing. We do need to develop an understanding of how the larger community wishes to approach linking, instead of leaving it to the handful of editors who have the patience to sift through the guideline discussion pages. Hopefully, by adding more voices to the discussion, we can find common ground and move forward instead of the "all or nothing" approach currently in play. --Ckatz^chat_spy 00:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• (Disclosure: I'm a pretty good Wikifriend of Tony, and I was a party in the date delinking Arbcom case) Tony has actually been running these scripts for some time now, and for the the substance of his edits has not been challenged by most editors. If you look through his recent talk page archives, most of the complaints about his link edits are of a technical nature (the removal of categories cited is an example of the glitches). It's fair to say Tony is rushing these edits somewhat, and needs to test the scripts first before using them on articles. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have just woken up to this. I don't know why my last twiddle to the script started unlinking the odd category—I will fix the problem, technically. It's the first time this has ever occurred. The venom expressed above is part of a campaign by two users, CKatz and N-HH, at WP:LINK—put simply, they have tried over some time but have not a hope of gaining consensus to have the guideline changed so that every instance of common English-speaking countries, and world cities such as New York and London, must be linked on every occasion. CKatz, in particular, has been kicking up dust about once every six week—it's quite regular. No, Fences and Windows, what CKatz says here is far from "a fair summary", and you are way out of line talking about blocks. Get your facts right about "topic bans", Tarc and Chris Cunningham—you're patently wrong, and I expect retractions. And your accusation about "timing" is laughably irrelevant to those facts. Where did you get your information from? Please read it properly. SarekOfVulcan, why did you revert "valid" edits? That seems to show a herd mentality. Tony (talk) 02:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC) PS And I had no clear idea from N-HH's post on my talk page yesterday that there was a technical glitch. It was a gigantic post, as usual, wrongly accusing me of edit-warring. I usually remove such posts from him and Ckatz. If the post had been a short paragraph with a diff to an example of the glitch, I'd have taken immediate action. But no, it was the usual diatribe. This page is turning into just what N-HH and Ckatz want: a diatribe—all over a glitch that can be fixed and, in repaired by me in the articles involved (almost all small, marginal and probably not often visited). Tony (talk) 02:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Tony's post above - "every instance of common English-speaking countries, and world cities such as New York and London, must be linked on every occasion" - is a perfect example of the misrepresentation used as a means of shutting down anyone who complains about the removal of wikilinks. With respect to the spurious claim listed above, N-HH and I are both on record as saying that is clearly not true, and Tony has repeatedly been asked to please stop misrepresenting opposing positions. I find it very frustrating that someone who is himself very quick to make accusations of incivility can be so uncivil in this way. --Ckatz^chat_spy 02:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't really have a dog in this fight but here is my two cents anyway. Since WP is a globally accessed website, used by millions of users from grade school to Doctoral scholars and all in between with various levels of understanding of he english language I recommend caution when employing the term "Common terms". What is common to you or I may not be common at all to others and I for one find it rather handy to simply click on the link and be wisked away to the related article. To me the bother over do we link or not link is a 2 dimensional argument in a 3 dimensional Wikipedia. Can it be annoying to read through an article with sea of blue links? Certainly, but does it hurt anything? My opinion is that it does not and in my opinion there are far better things to spend ones time with such as expanding the content of the thousands of stubs or creating some of the hundreds of articles that have been created. Anyway, thats all the comment I have and I will leave you to your discussions. --Kumioko (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not the place to conduct such a discussion, which should be at WP:LINK. Please read the title of this section.Tony (talk) 03:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Venom? Hysteria? Diatribes? Please calm down Tony. I don't see any evidence of that from anyone else here. Yes, you could have repaired the glitch, but you didn't. Even when I came to your talk page, with a diff, and pointed out the problem, which affected multiple pages. You just deleted my post, and now admit you did that without even reading it, something that you are now trying to somehow blame me for. And of course another editor had just the day before, on a different talk page, advised you to take more care to review the effects of your scripts. And now you're accusing someone who actually took the time to come and correct your multiple errors of exhibiting a "herd mentality", after I came here asking for help and they responded. Just to correct a couple of points -

• I have never IIRC ever posted to your talk page before this. Even if I had, your proud assertion that you "usually remove such posts [without reading them]" hardly deserves commendation. People can also see that you often come to my talk page, and that I not only read what you say, but that I supply you with substantive answers
• As both myself and Ckatz have pointed out - even in this very thread - neither of us have ever asked for "every instance" of certain cities and countries to be linked. Do you not read those bits either?
• You say there is no hope of changing what wp:link says. How would you know, since you've never asked for any wider community input on your delinking campaign? Plus of course, I don't want it changed. I want it adhered to, eg where is says "Think before removing a link—it may be useful to other readers" and where it says common terms can/should still be linked where they are "relevant to the topic of the article"
• Tarc seems to have broadly accurately summed up the ArbCom ruling against you. What did they get wrong?

Anyway, as you correctly note, and I acknowledged from the outset, this is not the forum for a wider debate about linking per se. It was however the right place to come to get help in correcting outright errors introduced by your script over multiple pages, and to get you to perhaps at least take more care in future to review the impact it has on pages. Problem seems resolved, for now. N-HH talk/edits 05:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's crap like this that makes me seriously wonder if we'd be better off without a Manual of Style. So far, it's one benefit has been to bring an end to the AD/CE edit wars, & its drawback has been to enable one small group to create policy without involving the rest of this community, then force it on a surprised majority thru bots & arrogance, acts that have ignited a larger number of disruptive edit wars. -- llywrch (talk) 06:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A minor point. Revert can be used to reverse the effect of a malfunctioning bot. Regardless of whether Tony's edits are appropriate, we all agree that Tony's edits have the effect of a malfunctioning bot; he's not checking, or he would have noticed the unlinking from within the #See also sections, and the unlinking of categories. (Note that I've opposed Tony on a number of issues in the past, not including this particular one on WP:LINK.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Tony1 was using a script but I see no evidence of him running a bot, but more like using a script and making the mistake of not looking at the changes. Fact is some of the edits broke nothing and most did take out [[]] in some Also see links and categories but with the reverts the articles which didn't have any problems were not checked by the reverter. I took an hour of my time to undo and fix these problems and everyone going "he did it, he should fix it" is unhelpful, rude and goes against what Wikipedia is about. Bidgee (talk) 11:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The MoS is, in general, an enormous benefit to the project. It's editors who use it as a power mechanism who are problematic. There really aren't that many of them, and the project should be able to deal with them without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Whom are you accusing of using the MoS as a power mechanism? If it's me, I'll take it up by filing against you in a separate venue. I have seen no retraction of your aggressive behaviour above, nor an admission that is it based on false claims. This page is discredited, as far as I'm concerned: it is being used as a forum for malcontents who want maximal, undisciplined linking, including Arthur Rubin above. Tony (talk) 08:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

"Malcontents who want maximal, undisciplined linking"?!? Tony, can you please, please, just consider for a moment the possibility that you may have pushed this too far, too fast? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to consider compromising your personal goals - even just a little bit - in order to accomodate other viewpoints? Surely that would better reflect the collaborative spirit than does this name-calling directed against editors who disagree with you, or the repeated attempts to discredit their opinions? --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more; except that they are not "personal" goals, I do discuss other viewpoints, and my view is a compromise. Tony (talk) 09:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you have a point, CC. However, whenever I have been in doubt about the best style to use in an article I simply use my copy of the MLA Style Manual; I find nothing useful in the MoS -- except examples of how not to behave on Wikipedia. While arguing for its deletion it might be one of those proposals akin to requiring an account to edit Wikipedia or ranting against WP:IAR, a serious & well-supported nomination at AfD might be the cluebat needed to reach through certain thick skulls.

And to our threat-making friend: if the shoe fits, don't whine. -- llywrch (talk) 16:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• If NHH had actually drawn Tony's attention to the actual errors in Tony's script - as he should have done on his talk page, rather than getting caught up in trying to sort out old scores - I sincerely believe we would not be here now. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 14:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Um, in what way is "I quickly looked at some of these, and noticed that many of them have removed links to items in the "Categories" and "See also" sections, which also of course has messed up the formatting." not drawing Tony's attention to the errors in the script? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Sigh. It seems OC followed Tony's lead and didn't read what I wrote. Also, I was not "settling old scores". I was noting - and explaining - a disagreement with him over his edits that same day to the Dubai article, in the first separate bullet point, while letting him know I would back off from any pointless edit war. The notice about script errors was the first sentence in the second bullet point. I then, yes, expanded on that to point out broader and less immediately obvious problems with the script. N-HH talk/edits 14:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Re reverts: An use of script without monitoring the changes is functionally equivalent to a bot, and should be treated the same way, except that the user should be warned before blocking, while bots may be "warned" after blocking. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

"Can it be annoying to read through an article with a sea of blue links? Certainly, but does it hurt anything?"[17] Yes, it does; it hurts the reader's capacity for attention to the high-value links, and even his/her ability to find and distinguish them. It drowns them in the sea of blue. Tony's well-judged (in my opinion) removal of low-value links has the function of making the high-value links much more visible and useful. That's what wikilinks were designed to be: carefully selected for their helpfulness; inviting, and relevant.

I don't see any need for admin intervention here. Tony has stated that he intends to fix the problem, which is not major, as soon as possible. Please give him a chance to do so, rather than rush in to do it for him; his userpage indicates that he's Australian, and it may be a little much to expect editors to work through the middle of the night. Bishonen | talk 23:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC).

First off, the "sea of blue" term that is so often used in this matter is a bit of a misnomer; the disputes arise over a handful of links here and there, whereas the "SoB story" muddies the water by implying that we're disagreeing over articles that are packed with dozens of links. Secondly, it is clear that there is a real problem in the overall attitude involved in this matter. Tony, for one, has in the course of this one ANI discussion demonstrated a clear disdain for any editors and admins who try to question his methods. Already, he has labelled N-HH, Arthr Rubin, and myself as "malcontents", accused Tarc of misleading ANI readers and being "biased and possibly involved in muddying the waters", and claimed Thumperward's post here was "aggressive, partisan, personalised, uncivil, threatening, and based on false information". That's just three examples from this one incident, and I could easily list numerous similar incidents from related discussions about the issue. At what point do we say enough is enough? --Ckatz^chat_spy 23:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

At the point where we find something more useful to get on with? --John (talk) 23:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't aware civility issues were subject to convenience. Also, given that Lightmouse is now back, it would be helpful to establish a clear understanding of what the community expects in terms of this large-scale script-based work. --Ckatz^chat_spy 23:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Brandmeister move request

• In http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves&oldid=368249856 there was this uncontroversial-type move request:

  " User:Brandmeister → User:Nightbolt (move) — With talk, repeated log-in failure Nightbolt (talk) 11:11, 15 June 2010 (UTC)"

  But a look at User talk:Brandmeister gets me wondering if this move request better be looked at first. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:20, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

That's an odd request. A userpage of a user with 12k edits to a user with only 5 edits? I think Brandmeister's account has been compromised, but I'm not sure. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 00:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

There is indeed a claim that the account is compromised, see WP:AE#Brandmeister. I don't think that the page should be moved until that is resolved.  Sandstein  12:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's me, checkuser can verify that. I left my IP at AE and consulted Stifle about possible password theft. The Help section suggests moving in such cases. I would like the contribs reassignment to be done, thanks in advance. NIGHTBOLT t 16:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Draynah

A look at this user's edits suggests they're not here to contribute positively at all, but what particularly drew my attention was their edits to User:Qotsa37, an editor who has not edited for a few days but whose page is on my watchlist. I guess the two may know each other. Draynah has provided a real name for Qotsa37 at least twice: here and here; should these revisions be deleted? I42 (talk) 22:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I can say that Qotsa37 has made at least one HOAX article, B.O.M.B. Fest. I checked out the bands that are coming to this "Fest" via their official websites....and one isn't touring at all and one isn't touring then. Hoax. I would recommend Qotsa37 be blocked for HOAX articles. Checking out Draynah. Checkuser might be a good idea too. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 22:18, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the festival does exist, and at least some of the lineup is kosher (Of Montreal, Lupe Fiasco) - [18]. No sign of 30 Seconds to Mars, but ... Black Kite (t) (c) 22:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• User:Qotsa37 is pure Myspace. Considering deletion. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 22:20, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Another blantant hoax by Qotsa37. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 22:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
    • ...and the hits just keep on coming. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 22:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• User:Qotsa37 and User:Draynah pass the "same person" test to me. I recommend a checkuser to confirm, but these "two" seem to be the same person. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 22:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Umm...Bombfest 2010 appears to have already taken place. If it's a hoax, they went to a bit of effort. --Onorem♠Dil 22:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Check out User:Lilwhiterapper too. Seems to know Qotsa37. Will check on "Bomb Fest". - NeutralHomer • Talk • 22:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

• I've deleted the userpage and the subpages per NOT#MYSPACE. An SPI might be worthwhile on the various accounts but they could just be IRL friends. I've removed the speedy tag from B.O.M.B Fest. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:41, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm pretty certain they are just real-life friends. Their behavior seems to show that this is true. But we can let an SPI check this. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 23:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Some of the edits have indeed been a bit dodgy, which is why I have his userpage on my watchlist. My impression is that he's generally here to contribute, but doesn't take it too seriously, and that the two accounts probably do belong to different people who know each other. But what I wanted to raise here was the aparrent outing of Qotsa's real name, which seems to be getting overlooked. I42 (talk) 06:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Number 57

Resolved

 – Classic Plaxico - indef blocked. Toddst1 (talk) 18:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Number 57 has continuously edit warred on the Kadima article. He acknowledges that his edit lacks consensus and I and other editors have given him several opportunities to explain himself in Talk:Kadima. We have waited before returning to the sourced, agreed-upon version. He has not replied to editors in discussion who have deemed his argument faulty and chooses instead to edit-war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shamir1 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I have asked for editor assistance on the matter per WP:dispute resolution. On several occasions, Number 57 appears to be wikistalking me. This is greatly disrupting my editing experience. He seems bent on smearing me personally. His actions demonstrate the intention of diverting attention away from Wikipedia policies and instead on tarnishing my credibility in the eyes of another editor. In the latest example, after I had asked another editor to intervene to provide assistance, Number 57 wrote on the talk page of User:JamesBWatson: " I suggest a quick browse of Shamir1's edit history and block log, amd involvement in disputes in many Israel-Palestinian-related spheres. I leave the rest up to you. Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ 57 20:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)"

I can see this issue as no way other than a deliberate intent to smear me and attack me personally so as my honest efforts at dispute resolution would not be taken fairly or seriously. We must be treated credibly, and I believe Number 57's actions (edit-warring and personal smears of past non-related issues in an effort to influence a third party) are disrupting this harmony. --Shamir1 (talk) 23:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Looking at Shamir1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)'s block log it appears that s/he is subject to a topic ban. Is Kadima part of the topic? Toddst1 (talk) 23:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Toddst1. I have not edit-warred on Kadima. I explained my edit in talk and this has been supported by other editors in that article. Other editors in fact have also reverted Number 57's edits. I have been restrained and tried to avoid it. Number 57 has not explained his actions in the discussion page. Editors are waiting for a response from him.

Although I have edit-warred in the past, this was on one specific article as I was accused by one specific editor who himself had edit-warred too. This is a separate and complex issue that I dealt with for a long time and still am dealing with. This should not tarnish my honest efforts at dispute resolution for an article in which my edits are supported by a majority and I do not believe to have edit-warred. I have learned my lesson from the past and have been editing responsibly. I am focusing on Wikipedia policy and am opposed to being smeared by another editor. Thank you.--Shamir1 (talk) 23:20, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Please explain your topic ban. Toddst1 (talk) 23:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC) Never mind - I found it here and Shamir1 is in violation of condition 2 of the unblock and is now indefinitely blocked. Toddst1 (talk) 23:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Toddst1, do you have any evidence that what Shamir1 is doing is actually edit warring? I only find two edits, separated by five days, to that page in his last 50 contributions. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 00:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course: [19] [20] [21] [22] constitutes "edit-warring or ownership of articles especially returning periodically to revert to a preferred version." I'll gladly defer to the WP:ARBCOM#BASC since they've apparently dealt with this user on this behavior before. Toddst1 (talk) 01:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Shamir1 posted on my talk page asking for help, here. This post is clearly aimed at asking me to help Shamir1 to maintain his/her preferred version of the article. I see this as a breach of unblock condition 2, which forbids "any type of edit-warring or ownership of articles especially returning periodically to revert to a preferred version" (my emphasis). Attempting to recruit other editors to maintain one's own version is a type of ownership, quite apart from whether or not Shamir1 has been edit-warring in person. I have also been told that within the last few days Shamir1 has made at least one other similar approach to another editor, but I have no details of this. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Cnrail37592114

Resolved

 – User blocked for unapproved article making script. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 06:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems like Cnrail37592114 is using a script to create articles such as Yujiazhuang Railway Station. I was doing newpage patrol, and cleaned up a couple, but then looked on the talk page and realized the user has admitted to using a script to automatedly create all of the articles. I'm not sure exactly what actions (if any) need to be taken, but I'm not sure if it is good to have a user mass producing articles with a script without approval. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 00:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Unapproved bots/scripts are forbidden anyway (obviously), but any article creation is entirely prohibited regardless. Since the articles are there, they're there and need normal deletion channels if you'd like to make a case for that. Would need to check with the railroads project to see what their precedent is on station articles but something seems a bit fishy (I'm reminded of the state highways mess of years past). ...If the creation and/or editing is ongoing, I'd (sadly) have to suggest an admin indef block until there can be some level of communication with the user and the articles looked over. Sorry I can't personally be of any more help. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 02:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Account blocked as a sockpuppet of Tratra22395768 (talk · contribs), previously blocked per this discussion, articles nuked. T. Canens (talk) 02:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean that article creation is entirely prohibited? We've permitted content creation bots in the past. Or do you mean that unapproved content creation bots are even worse than other unapproved bots? Nyttend (talk) 02:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User attempting to revoke cc-by-sa-3.0 and requesting deletion of massive amounts of information

In the past, User:Rovington has contributed significant amounts of text and many images. After becoming miffed that we're not permitting him to require his own preferred method of attribution on top of the "You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license." statement below the editing window, he's announced that he's revoked cc-by-sa-3.0 and that his contributions — even PD-art and other PD-old images — are now copyvios. I have three questions:

1. Is it appropriate for me (or any other admin) to restore all of his recent contributions that have been deleted, without asking permission of deleting admins? He tagged many images with db-author that have since been deleted; I assume that the deleting admins didn't realise that the tag was a bad-faith attempt to revoke licensing. In particular, Explicit deleted a large number of them; I've asked his permission to restore the ones he deleted.
2. The link that I gave above to his announcement includes the addition of the address of his attorney. Should we take this as a legal threat?
3. On the technical side, Rovington tagged many articles with {{db-filecopyvio}}. Would it be possible to add code to this template so that it knows when it's placed on a page that's not in the file namespace? We currently employ such code on {{prod}}, because it's able to tell when it's not on an article.

Thanks for the input. Nyttend (talk) 02:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

IANAL, but it seems to me that his including of his attorney's address is not a legal threat, since he is not threatening any legal action at the moment and presumably just telling us that this counsel advised him to withdraw his material. Regarding the other issues, I would restore his article space material, and block him after a warning if he continues to remove it or be disruptive in other ways. Crum375 (talk) 02:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't go legal threat on him, but there is no question that you can't revoke permission this way, and that he needs explaining that removing contents is vandalism even if he's the one who put it there originally. Restoring it (if it has value) is SOP. — Coren ^(talk) 02:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Besides notifying him of the ANI post, I've told him that the licenses aren't revocable, and I've included a link to the CC website's FAQ page that discusses nonrevocability. Just curious, though: what's "SOP"? Nyttend (talk) 02:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

"Standard Operating Procedure" --Ronz (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for starting this discussion. I'd been saving notes to do the same. From my perspective, he's extremely confused about copyrights and attribution. Perhaps he actually has gotten some (bad) legal advise as well. Maybe it's simply a WP:OWN problem. Regardless, I've been trying to salvage article content that he cannot claim is his own, keeping him informed on his talk page. If he's made as many errors requesting file deletions as he has with article deletions, then I think they should all be restored and reviewed. --Ronz (talk) 02:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, he's requested the deletion of tons of PD-old images; as far as I know, the only ones that have been saved are File:Rivington Little Lake Distr.jpg and File:Rivington c1780.jpg, and that's only because I came upon them while deleting images and moved them to Commons (the former file is now File:Lakes in Rivington.jpg). Nyttend (talk) 02:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

As for the PD files, any admin including myself can undelete them & there's a list available from his "deleted contributions" page, accessible to admins. If there's consensus here to undelete, I will unless someone does it before me. As for the articles,, I do not think it matters, because the material dependent only on his web site is not necessary to write a good article; some of it is, in fact, quite unsuitable--therefore, the simplest solution is to start over without him and do it right, just as Ronz is doing. If anyone wants them,though, they can be undeleted also. DGG ( talk ) 03:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I can't remember which one, but there's at least one article from which he removed well-sourced information — it was a bulleted list of individuals, each of whom was cited from a reliable source. Nyttend (talk) 04:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

If someone wants to undelete: <spam>User:Tim Song/massrestore.js might be useful. </spam> T. Canens (talk) 04:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I do believe there's consensus DGG, not only in the thread but as a standard of community practice in the past. --M^ask? 04:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Licenses are revocable as there exists no valid contract. That is, people make a "gift" of their work without payment. Without any meaningful payment, there is not contract. Yes, I'm familiar with the CC language, but without meaningful payment, it's meaningless. Without a contract, the creator has the right to revoke his or her gift. If we were a book, we'd simply remove the image(s) from the next edition, and the creator would have no recourse regarding the current edition since. However, we're online, so it's reasonable for us to remove copyrighted images immediately upon request. It's a nasty little problem with CC licenses, and there's not much we can do about it - except not advertise the problem and hope people remain good sports about their gifts. Rklawton (talk) 05:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's a useful source providing further detail regarding this type of problem[23] Rklawton (talk) 05:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• You (and your lawyer) are misunderstanding the article, Rklawton. It's making the (arguable) proposition that the CCBY licence attaches to the user, not the work, and suggests the licence can be revoked for the work, but not for the user. Even if true (and it's untested), that doesn't help you in the present case, as the work is already licensed to Wikipedia and the licence for Wikipedia to use the work is irrevokable even if there exists no licence attaching to the work itself. Your other claims seem to be based off a misunderstanding of the formation of contract - you're arguing that there has been no consideration (benefit accruing to you) and therefore a contract hasn't been formed. The consideration in this case is the attribution of the work to yourself by means of a hyperlink. You may consider it peppercorn consideration but it's still consideration. In any case, the edit space of Wikipedia is not the appropriate venue to pursue legal arguments. If you are not satsified by the explanations above please feel free to discuss it with the Wikimedia foundation's lawyers, at which time your account will be terminated in accordance with our policy on legal action. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oops, confused Rklawton with Rovington. Argument still stands but there's no need for it to be personally addressed to Rklawton. Sorry. :-) - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The link is stipulated in the CC agreement as a requirement, but it's not compensation. If you wish to respond constructively, please read the source I provided above and comment on that. Rklawton (talk) 05:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I did read the blog you linked, and find it interesting, but you and they are making two separate points: you are saying a license agreement does not exist unless actual (rather than nominal) consideration is made (more accurately, paid), while they are saying a purported licensee would not be able to readily prove that they obtained any given photograph under a Creative Commons license (and that the burden of proof would be on them). They are two separate issues (one being basic contract law, the other being the burden of proof in a civil action), and they do not necessarily support each other. In any event, I think how to move forward in this case is something that should be determined by the Foundation and its counsel, given that both of those points could potentially be valid — and we are not lawyers. jæs (talk) 05:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes - that blog was less than clear. The point there is that if a user wants to revoke the CC, we need to remove the CC from the image, and that would render it unusable for our purposes. Our article on Contracts spell out the matter a little more plainly. For a contract to be valid, several conditions must be met, one of which is "consideration". We must not confuse consideration and "condition" - complying with the CC (links, attribution, etc) is a condition and not a consideration. Consideration, plainly, is payment. But I leave it to you to read our article on the subject and see for yourself. As I recall, when such matters are referred up to the foundation, the standard response is to immediately remove the requested material and dispense with legal hand wringing entirely. However, it's not something we advertise lest we get hit with a flood of spiteful requests from angry editors. Rklawton (talk) 06:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The following is entirely for the purpose of an interesting discussion - as mentioned, the actual legal merits of this particular case are ultimately a problem for Wikimedia's lawyers, not us. But as someone who's worked in (Australian) contract law, I think you're still making two errors, Rklawton. The first relates to consideration. Consideration is anything of value gained by a party to a contract as a result of being a party to that contract. Where any party to a contract does not receive consideration, a contract binding upon that party has not been formed. Consideration does not need to have monetary value. In this case, the party granting the CCBY licence has gained the right for their identity to be associated with the work when it is displayed via a hyperlink, thus garnering them the possibility of respect and publicity. The Wikimedia foundation gains the right to display the work themselves, under certain conditions, and to grant a similar licence on to other parties. Both parties have therefore received consideration and a contract is formed. (There are of course other preconditions of contract not relevant to this discussion.) Your second error is in misunderstanding the nature of a licence. A licence is a permission. When a person licences content under CCBY, they are granting certain permissions to a class of people. The permissions include the right to display the work under conditions, and the right to allow others to display the work under identical conditions. The class of people are all people who obtain the work from you while it the CCBY licence is in force. So you may revoke that licence - that is, stop offering the work to people under the licence. However, people who have already obtained the work under licence - in this case Wikipedia - retain their rights associated with that work, including the right to display it and allow others to display it. New people acquiring the content must obtain it from someone in possession of a licence; they can no longer obtain it from the original location, where a CCBY licence no longer attaches. That's the nature of the entrapment referred to in the article - while many instances of the image are CCBY licenced, a particular original no longer is, leading people into confusion. Revoking CCBY licence only affects the original you hold; it has no effect on the copies held by Wikipedia or the rights Wikipedia has to use them or allow others to use them. - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I respectfully disagree. For example, not all CC license require attribution. But I reserve the right to be wrong. If you can recommend further reading on the subject, I promise to give it a read before boring more people with my opinions ;-). Rklawton (talk) 06:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. To avoid choking up ANI, how about you leave a message on my talk page, I'll have a think overnight, and see what I can find. - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with DGG on this. Whatever the legal position may be (and I don't claim to know that) do we need the information provided by this person? Do we want information provided, it seems to me, with the intention of forcing us to include spam links with it? Would it be better to ditch the disputed material and carry on without it? Clearly this would not apply to public domain material which it has been suggested Rovington has included. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Some of it is useful. We have no need to add the link, because Rovington copied the information himself: if you write text somewhere online, and then you copy it to Wikipedia, you've agreed that the text can be properly attributed with a link to its Wikipedia page history. You have no right to force us to include a link in addition to the terms that appear under the editing window. Nyttend (talk) 13:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The page to which I referred, which had at least some useful information, was William Willoughby, 6th Baron Willoughby of Parham. While much of the text is unsourced, some of it cites A general and heraldic dictionary of the peerages of England, Ireland, and Scotland, extinct, dormant, and in abeyance. England, which is likely reliable. Nyttend (talk) 13:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User Irvine22 again?

See

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive609#Sockfarm Stauner/Irvine22

• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Irvine22/Archive

• Irvine22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

• Dreary Steeples (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Is this ducklike enough for a block, or need we go through with another SPI report? Neutral admin opinions please. --John (talk) 02:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

(Non-admin, neutral) Would this not have been identified in the SPI case for the previous one? The account was created back in December, and the Blocked one was only done in April. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 02:56, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Full disclosure: John and I have been in a content dispute today at Bloody Sunday Inquiry. Dreary Steeples (talk) 03:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

You may regard it as a content dispute, Irvine; I regard edits like this as pure WP:POINT violation, which was one way I twigged what (I think) is going on here, besides the "stauner" addition. MWOAP, I am not sure how comprehensive a checkuser was done as part of that SPI, and there may also be an element of BEANS involved here of course. --John (talk) 03:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

That's just one of a series of edits. I gave my rationale in the summaries, to whit: if allegations about the conduct of the soldiers are to be featured in the lead, so should the rebuttal by their lawyer. You don't want to allow the rebuttal, I think balance (and WP policy on Living Persons) requires it. That's the dispute we are having. I will observe that just about every U.K. newspaper includes the quote from the lawyer in their coverage of this story. And what is the element of BEANS? Dreary Steeples (talk) 03:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Its a similar pattern to Irvine22 but if so its a sleeper account. We also have user:Cbowsie established after the last Irvine22 sock was blocked. I had similar suspicions to John but was waiting judgement while monitoring the edit history, Given the major level disruption that we saw from Irvine22 and the time it took to deal with him given the intelligent gaming of the system I'd support a checkuser on anything that looked like it might be the reemergence --Snowded ^TALK 05:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually this is a give away - its Irvine22 again --Snowded ^TALK 05:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

You certainly seem to have had a bad experience with Irvine22. Almost traumatised, I'd say, to the point where you seem to think that anyone who edits on Saville Inquiry/Bloody Sunday is him. Funny thing, I've just run through his contributions (or as many as I can stand) and for the life of me I can't see hardly a single article I've also edited. It's quite bizarre. Now, I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'm going to: why are you and John so obsessed with the "stauner" edit? Dreary Steeples (talk) 05:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is a give-away; blocked. Black Kite (t) (c) 05:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yeah; the Duck quacks at Midnight. Zap. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Ahem. Sorry, but I feel too involved in this one to issue the blocks without oversight. --John (talk) 07:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree, that looks like a sleeper account. Got him. Might be worth a SPI to check other editors near that article, given that they're suddenly very active again. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

JordanPegram

JordanPegram (talk · contribs) has constantly been adding unnecessary wikilinks to various articles, linking the artist's name multiple times within song articles in gross violation of WP:OVERLINK. He has been warned at least four times within the past couple days and is in no way responding to the warnings piling up on his talk page. This has continued even after a level 4 "only warning" and needs to be stopped now since it's clear that he's just plowing through and blatantly ignoring rules. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 04:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I gave him a 48 hour "Wake UP!" block to get his attention and get him to read his user talk page. I suspect this is a user who hasn't got it all figured out yet. I doubt he's being intentionally disruptive, but WP:COMPETENCE is coming into play. --Jayron32 04:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Stanley Meyer's water fuel cell

We've got a "new" (puppet?) editor publishing original material in this article. Rather than risk 3RR (even though the problems with these edits are blatant and might not fall under the 3RR restrictions), I figured I'd make note of the problem here. If I'm right, this matter won't take more than a minute to resolve. If I'm not, then at least someone can point out the error in my thinking. Rklawton (talk) 04:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a sock of a previous editor or just a new enthusiast, but those edits of his are completely inappropriate. Some/many are outright vandalism (bad-faith changes to cited quotes, inverting meaning of cited material, etc.). Others are just outlandish claims without site. Revert. Ball's in his court to discuss, or get himself blocked if he continues to war it. DMacks (talk)

I've blocked him for 3RR. If someone would undo his reversion, I'd appreciate it. Rklawton (talk) 06:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Reverted. DMacks (talk) 06:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Editors user group

Moved to WP:VPT § Editors user group

–xeno^talk 13:11, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Legal threats on my talk page.

Trichard2010 has been disruptively editing on Edmond, Oklahoma and its talk page. I've been reverting those edits, but I've received a claim that legal action is being taken on my talk page - diff - [24]. The claims Trichard2010 are making are fallacious and are probably purely disruptive, but per WP:NLT, I'm bringing it here. Claritas § 05:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I left the standard legal warnings template on the user's talk page. Let us know if this problem persists. Rklawton (talk) 06:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

...at the same time as I was blocking him. After standard warnings, he escalated his incivility rather than going back to article-centric discussion, culminating in the clear legal threat that triggered this ANI. But this wasn't even his first legal threat! I stand by my block, but won't argue the point if other admins want to reduce it or unblock and wait if user takes Rklawton's warning to heart. DMacks (talk) 06:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have no objection to the block. Rklawton (talk) 06:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I've extended the block to include the user's talk page where he continued both legal threats and incivility. Rklawton (talk) 06:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm really hoping his filing uses the word "chickenshit" as much as he used it here. --Smashville^talk 14:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Can an admin...

Please give Cluebot the reviewer right, so its edits are autoreviewed? Thanks, {{Sonia|ping|enlist}} 06:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Is that a good idea? With serial cases of vandalism (e.g, User 1 vandalizes, then User 2 vandalizes, then ClueBot comes in and reverts User 2), shouldn't ClueBot's version not be autoreviewed? T. Canens (talk) 06:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, true. Never mind then. {{Sonia|ping|enlist}} 07:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Aren't rollbacks automatically reviewed in the first place? The Thing // Talk // Contribs 13:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Only if you are rolling back to an already accepted version. T. Canens (talk) 15:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Persistent copyright violations by Aayan1

Aayan1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has previously been blocked for uploading copyright violations, and their talk page is literally full of warning notices about copyright. With the exception of a fair-use image that is not fair use, every image they have uploaded since 23 May is a copyright violation. Request an administrator take the appropriate action regarding this editor please. Thank you. O Fenian (talk) 08:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Final warning issued; will indefblock on any further uploads (and I really mean "indefinite"; as soon as he undertakes to follow copyright policy properly, the block would be removed). Stifle (talk) 10:18, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

GameFAQS Sports and Racing: NBA Board Delete and Salt.

We have a emerging sock and or meat puppet issue on this article. It is a self promotional article ad thus far I have nominated for A7 however now it is a blatant advertisement platform. Can we please stop this before the water gets deeper? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 09:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Have deleted the page. Not sure if it warrants salting as it is a first time creation as far as I can see - will add the page to my watchlist. Camw (talk) 09:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Me too. Sorry, HIAB, I got distracted. – B.hotep •talk• 09:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

no worries thanks for the help. I'm going to bed it's 3:30 where I'm at so I shouldn've went to bed hours past. Nite Hell In A Bucket (talk) 09:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Alex latham

Resolved

 – Non-newb admin has had a word. TFOWR 11:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Could someone else please "have a word" with this user, Alex latham (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who first came to prominence at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Could_someone_have_a_look. User continues to ignore all advice, warnings and suggestions. Continues to create pages on reserve team football players which, although largely based on fact, contain deliberate misrepresentations in an apparent attempt to disguise the fact that the person is not notable. A number of pages created by this user have already been deleted for failing notability criteria. User has to date ignored all attempts to communicate. The user has potential to become a valid contributor, but seems intent on creating articles that don't yet meet notability criteria. Not sure the habit of adding deliberate factual errors is a good one for a new user to be developing.--ClubOranje^T 09:18, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I dropped a note on the editor's talk page at the time; since I am newbie admin more experienced eyes than mine would be appreciated. TFOWR 10:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

This not so newbie admin has given the editor a few suggestions and explained the notability threshold. Mjroots (talk) 10:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks! I'll copy-and-paste your response next time the need arises ;-)

ClubOranje, if you notice this again, do please feel free to raise it with me, or at WP:AIV. I'm going to mark this as "resolved", but don't let that stop you adding anything further if you need to. TFOWR 11:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

No interest in Israel or Palestine? Excellent! A moment of your time, if you please...

Resolved

 – Nothing sanctionable, editor hadn't been warned. Edit notice created. TFOWR 12:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I've seen an editor at WP:AIV: Tyalav (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). They were reported for "vandalism" after a final warning. To my mind, their post-warning edits were not vandalism. However, the user's edits did give me cause for concern, and I've blocked them (24 hours) for violating WP:3RR. I have a remaining concern: that 3RR may not even apply.

The article in question is Shayetet 13 which may (or may not) be covered by Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles.

The edits in question are: [25], [26] , [27], [28], [29].

My question is... is this article subject to the Arbcom sanctions on "Palestine-Israel articles"? If so, I'd like to dodge this as far as possible: I'd prefer to avoid getting bogged down in this area at the moment, as I'm already bogged down in this area.

TFOWR 09:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Editor informed. Since I haz blocked them, I've offered to copy any comments they wish to make from their talk page to here. TFOWR 09:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have added the sanctions header to the talk page. It should have been added when the article was created. Shayetet 13 certainly is within the area of conflict and covered by the sanctions. The article and editors remain within scope of all other policies and guidelines such as 3RR (assuming 1RR isn't in place) i.e. being within scope of the sanctions doesn't require people to raise policy non-compliance issues through the arbitration enforcement process. The user would also need to be informed about the sanctions by an admin and the notification logged. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm inclining towards "if this happens again it's a sanctionable issue, but right now the editor wasn't informed so no sanctions apply" — is that correct?

Incidentally, and by way of "repayment" for your help here, would an WP:Edit notice at Shayetet 13 be appropriate? If so, I'll copy-and-paste the top bit of Template:Editnotices/Page/Gaza flotilla raid (ignoring the Mil Hist part, unless you need that as well?)

TFOWR 10:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, thankfully I'm not an admin so an admin should answer the what happens next bit but your approach sounds sensible. Anything at all to stop the general partisan nonsense, silliness and lameness, even if it's just a little bit, is certainly appreciated by me. :) Sean.hoyland - talk 10:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Re the edit notice. I'm in favour of these being used as an editor will always get the edit notice when trying to edit the article directely. Thus they can not say that the didn't know about the problem when later challenged. Mjroots (talk) 10:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Done. My actions are subject to the "Moonriddengirl" disclaimer: revert me at will, I won't consider it wheel-warring. TFOWR 11:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Guy Sebastian article

User talk:Phantomsteve suggested I leave a message here for Admins - I am wanting to have you look at this for me

Hi Steve

Sorry to bother you when you are having a baby... just didnt know who to turn to and I investigated and know that you have had some experience with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ozurbanmusic&action=history on some other articles.

User talk:Ozurbanmusic is causing havoc over on the Guy Sebastian article - I havent really become involved yet but I have observed another editor there NatBelle trying to keep content from being deleted without any good reason for it being removed as well as images being added or replaced with other images ... so I did some more investigation and have found that Ozurbanmusic has a history of disruptive edits. There seems to have been good faith by Natbelle to discuss the sweeping edits that Ozurbanmusic is constantly making but this editor just blanks his talk page.

I know you are very busy so congratulations in advance on your new arrival... but could an admin editor take a look at Ozurbanmusic to get him to see some reason in not changing or removing contributions of work that has been refined and tweaked for the better of the article over a long period of time.

Best wishes, Di --Diane (talk) 08:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi Di, thanks for contacting me. Unfortunately, I don't have time at the moment to look into this (I have to go out soon) - I could perhaps look at this later today, but your best bet might be to leave a message at the Admin's noticeboard (ANI) and ask for other admins to look into this?

Thanks for your congrats - we've still got just over 2 weeks until the baby is due, but at the moment my girlfriend needs to go to the hospital 3 times a week to monitor the baby - all's OK at the moment, but we'll see what the consultant says today!

If you have no luck at ANI, drop me a line this evening (UTC) and I'll see what I can do -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 09:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

thanks Steve for pointing me in the right direction - I will leave a message with other admins - have fun becoming a father soon! --Diane (talk) 09:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

anyways any help or advice on how to diffuse or rectify this situation would be gratifully accepted

--Diane (talk) 10:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi Diane. I've had a quick look: I looked at the article's history (who contributed, and when), and at the article's talk page. I also had a quick look at Ozurbanmusic's talk page.

It looks like there's a discussion on the talk page: NatBelle has participated. Ozurbanmusic hasn't, but I'd imagine that that's because they simply don't know about it (I couldn't see anything on their talk page. I'll drop Ozurbanmusic a line, and steer them towards the discussion).

It looks to me like both Ozurbanmusic and NatBelle are very close to stepping over the maximum permitted number of "reverts" - I'll let them know about the WP:3RR rule.

In summary: thanks for raising this; the talk page discussion is good, and should continue; I'll keep an eye on things for a while, and please let me know if any problems recur.

Happy editing! TFOWR 16:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Jalapenos do exist

User:Jalapenos do exist has made about 15 POV edits to Gaza flotilla raid in two hours, as noted in Talk:Gaza_flotilla_raid#String_of_new_edits. Their re-insertions regarding the order of events[30], embedded journalist's statement as a first-hand eyewitness[31], and the Ramallah lynching in See Also section[32], had been extensively discussed and removed following former talk page discussions. Reverts of these removals clearly violate the WP:1RR restriction on the article, and along with their other POV edits also totally ignoring talk page discussions, may have irreversabely damaged the article for the same reason. The article is about a sensitive current event, under semi-protection, and has been subject to very long talk page debates. Many users have already been blocked for 24 hours without warning for violating the restriction once. The user was also previously warned numerous times by others both on the article's and their own talk page for making discretionary reverts and the ignoring talk page discussions of the same article. --386-DX (talk) 11:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Jalapenos do exist has made about 15 POV edits to Gaza flotilla raid in two hours, as noted in Talk:Gaza_flotilla_raid#String_of_new_edits

POV is in the eye of the beholder. Discuss the matter on the talk page. Not actionable from our end.

Their re-insertions .. had been extensively discussed and removed following former talk page discussions.

Are you certain Jalepenos is aware of that?

Reverts of these removals clearly violate the WP:1RR restriction on the article, and along with their other POV edits also totally ignoring talk page discussions, may have irreversabely damaged the article for the same reason.

Cut the drama, please. No edit anyone makes can irreversibly damage an article. Further, consecutive edits are considered one revert for revert-counting purposes (there are so many experienced editors at that article, and it's embarrassing that none of them have pointed that out yet). Nearly all of the edits mentioned on the talk page are consecutive or close enough in time that they ought to be considered consecutive.

Unless you elaborate, or provide some other evidence, I see no problem here other than the fact that there is a (predictable) dispute at the article. Further, these edits are now 36 hours old, and so shouldn't be within our purview anymore. -- tariqabjotu 12:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Cuncur. And the thing to do is to engage with other editors, not carefully count to two and come running to AN/I. This is a hot potato article, and it cannot be run from AN/I. People have to engage. Looks to me like they've been doing it. Get on with it.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Tariq, [NPA REDACTED], I request that you refrain from making any comments on this issue. You are clearly biased here. It is yet another shame that an administrator like you is not being WP:POLITE. Jalepenos has received countless warnings from others and also responded to some of them. Re-adding embedded journalist's statement as if he were a first-hand eyewitness[33] was clearly a revert and already discussed on the talk page numerous times: [34], [35], [36]. Same goes for him reverting the order of events [[37], which was also discussed and changed before: [38]. His revert of the "shot and killed" sentence in the lead [39], was also previously undone and been subject to an edit war numerous times in the last few days. When there is a WP:1RR restriction on a heated article and some user makes 15 discretionary edits in 2 hours, then yes, it is practically impossible to undo all of these reverts and there is a real danger that the article becomes damaged irreversibly. --386-DX (talk) 13:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Please read the above responses and take this to the article talk page and discuss it with the editors on that page. --Smashville^talk 14:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It should be noted that this is the third AN/I report 386-DX has filed in the span of a day and a half. In every case this was against people he has content disputes with, while not reporting similar behavior by people who's POV he shares. Perhaps a warning about WP:BATTLE is in order. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• This thread is far more WP:DRAMA than it's worth. Why doesn't some uninvolved admin simply notify Jalapenos with {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}} and leave it at that? Physchim62 (talk) 14:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
  • I clearly explained in detail why I am reporting the user and also provided links to their diffs and previous discussions regarding their reverts. As opposed to other editors who were blocked without any prior warning, this user has received countless warnings. The fact that they are still refusing to acknowledge their mistake proves my point. --386-DX (talk) 15:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
    • The previous time you reported an editor here, the editor very courteously reverted themselves. I'd like to think that if you'd raised this with Jalapenos do exist before bringing it here, Jalapenos do exist might very well have done the same. In future I'd suggest it would be a good idea to bring the matter up with the editor on their talk page, and bring the matter here only if that doesn't resolve the problem. TFOWR 17:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• @ Physchim62: my understanding is that we're all, already, notified about {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}} because there's an edit notice at Gaza flotilla raid. I'll concede that additional notification won't hurt, however ;-) TFOWR 17:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• I have notified Jalapenos with the ARBPIA template and logged it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• A similar warning against 386-DX (talk) would be helpful since he seems to be going down that road.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 23:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

user:Galassi and the inline citation tag

The other day the article Polish Auxiliary Police was created. Since at least half article lacks inline citations I have put a tag on the article but user:Galassi keeps removing it. His edit summary was "the article has 12 INLINE citations" [40]. Well that doesn't change the fact that the first 50% of the article doesn't have a single inline citation. I believe the first half of the article needs citations as well. I don't want to engage in a revert war over the tag and I request an Admin checks the situation and restore the tag if necessary.  Dr. Loosmark  14:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

You don't need an admin for this, though good move to not engage in an edit war. The article talk page, the user's talk page, those are the first ports of call before an ANI thread. In the end, I just created a "history" section for the uncited portion and put the tag in there. Seems to more accurately reflect the problem. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 14:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I see you did message the user, but you didn't "discuss it" rather just heard his one line response and came straight here. Nevermind, things get fixed anyway (hopefully). S.G.^(GH) _ping! 14:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

There is another problem with this article as there is already an article on the subject, see here: Blue Police. Check the pic of the Policeman, it is the same in both articles. I propose to delete the Polish Auxiliary Police article (and if there is information which the other one lacks it can be added to it).  Dr. Loosmark  14:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Disruptions and personal attacks of user:Stubes99

Resolved

 – WP:BOOMERANG Complaintant blocked as sockpuppet of User:Samofi – Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have found a problematic user who personaly attacked me to my talk page. He was a lot of times warned and did not stop - I have found these disruptions from him:

[41] - personal attack to me (user should read WP:AGF)

[42] – user has used POV and personal attack, he used not sourced informations

[43] – user deleted for a few times a sourced text (user tries to censure wikipedia)

[44] – blanking of sourced matherial from this user

[45] – user has used POV and unsourced informations

[46] – user has used unsourced POV – user was warned in his talk page

[47] – vandalism in the next article, user was again warned in his talk page --CsabaBabba (talk) 15:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Other warnings are here: [48]

User again attacked me in my page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CsabaBabba&action=history He thinks that Iam a blocked user but this is nonsense. Iam a new editor and I was 2 times investigated after my first edit. I demand an admin to do something with the behaviour of this user. --CsabaBabba (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The only thing that comes remotely close to a personal attack is the shitty nickname part. I'm not seeing anything really actionable at this time IMHO. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:56, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Additionally the questions posed is actually one that would seem to be valid. I have asked for a checkuser to clear things up, if you are truly not a sock my apologies. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

On what PLANET is this a personal attack? --Smashville^talk 17:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I read it as an accusation of sock puppetry, in evasion of a block: CsabaBabba is the new nick of a deleted Slovak nationalist. ("deleted" = "blocked"?) No comment as to whether the claim is (a) correct, or (b) an attack. TFOWR 17:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Dont shout to me with capitals. If you would read his explanation of the change in the article you will see this: "CsabaBabba is the new nick of a deleted Slovak nationalist" Iam not deleted Slovak nationalist. He has no right to says about me that Iam a nationalist. Its personal attack according to this: WP:PA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem --CsabaBabba (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

His threats of vandalism to my talk page are also personal attack WP:PA: "He is a deleted Hungarian-hater slovak nationalist with a new shifty Hungarized nick name" [49] He wrote a few times to my talk page. He has no evidence for this and his reaction is not normal, it exists rules how to proceed in this case - he does not respect them. Problematic are also his other edits (removing of reliable sources - censorship of Wikipedia, using of the fake and POV informations). Why he should not be blocked? What is his asset for Wikipedia? --CsabaBabba (talk) 18:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't shouting. My little toolbar got script blocked, so I used that in exchange for italics. --Smashville^talk 18:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Who is shouting at you exactly? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

*points up at Smashville's all-caps* There, maybe?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User Smashville - he has used all caps, in this context it was shouting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps - "netiquette generally discourages the use of all caps" --CsabaBabba (talk) 18:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Oops overlooked that one sorry. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It isn't a personal attack to think that you're using multiple accounts. It's just true, or false. I'm curious about User:DusanSK, who seems to be making the same edit as you, too. Have I made a personal attack by pointing out my curiosity? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 18:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I know who Iam. I think its naturally that a lot of Slovaks make similarly edits (classical disputable articles in Slovak-Hungarian history - historical tension between 2 nations) - they tries to put to Wikipedia Slovak point of view and Hungarians tries to put there Hungarian point of view. Do you want to ban all Slovak editors whose are interesting about own history? I have close to a both nations and I have done nothing nationalistic (I have used English and Hungarian sources) - so nobody has a right to say to me that Iam an "Hungarian-hater slovak nationalist". He has no evidence and his claim "Hungarian-hater slovak nationalist" without evidence is a personal attack. (I agree "It isn't a personal attack to think that you're using multiple accounts" personal attack was all what user:Stubes99 made around this his idea) --CsabaBabba (talk) 18:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Blocked [[50]] and [[51]] Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, User:Samofi that's what I came here to post. Nice catch. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I thank you but the credit is due to the other editor accused of NPA. I just filed it for him Hell In A Bucket (talk) 22:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Death threat

Resolved

Is this a death threat? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's worthless and has been removed entirely. (Note: The edit summary was worthless, not your report!) TNXMan 19:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Just another vandal. RBI'd. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

tick tick tick

Resolved

2 hours, no update? Just Not Right. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to announce that the jet-lag from China really sucks. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

We were going for the record on ANI idleness. Thanks, Sarek. Thanks a lot. *sob* Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Heh. Sorry. You mean 2 hours isn't the record? :-) (Anybody know offhand, not counting crash time?)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have seen both AN and ANI go both over 2 hours late at night (after Midnight EST). - NeutralHomer • Talk • 21:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, the problem seems to be solved now, as there's a new problem to solve below. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Edits made on a protected page/ Caroline Glick

I am simply looking for a clarification on the following activities which make me unsure as to whether there are supra-editors or not. With regards to the page Caroline Glick the page has been protected from editing up to 21 June 2010 1.

I had previously brought this to attention on 7 June 2010 [1]. My comment regarding this had to do with the previous discussion regarding the blocking which I felt was non sufficient. As a response, it was stated that it is a BLP issue and that one should simply wait for the expiry date of 21 June 2010 to occur. I did not contest this response.

My concern as stated was that an editor that had blocked this from being further edited could edit further without any question. As of June 7, there have been 3 edits on this page even though the page is protected from editing. All from the same editor. 1.

My question has nothing to do with the edits in question but I would like to ask just so it will be stated clearly. Are there supra-editors who stand above normal editors who have the ability to edit pages which are blocked? Is there in Wikipedia an ability for supra-editors to block editing content for a certain time period and include edits in such a blocked context which is not accessible to all?

That I would like to know. GaussianCopula (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The first 2 edits seem OK to me...assuming that the edit summaries are accurate for both. The edit today is more than I'd like to see done on a protected article. --Onorem♠Dil 22:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I should add...I don't know anything about the subject of the article and don't necessarily think the last edit was bad from a content standpoint. I just don't think that an average editor proposing the change with an edit request template on the talk page would have been seen as having consensus for the edit. --Onorem♠Dil 22:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

And I should read more, post slower. I'm guessing that consensus would have been found had the template been used. Seems most of the talk page was in favor of toning the section down. Doesn't look like what specifically should be changed/reworded/removed was approved, but in general seems ok. --Onorem♠Dil 22:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

What is the purpose of protecting an article and stating "bring it to the talk page, folks" if you are going to have supra-editors coming in and changing the content anyways. It seems to me that "all editors are equal but some editors are more equal than others"?GaussianCopula (talk) 22:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Forgive me Guassian, I just nudged your comment against the margin to format it properly. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 22:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I checked both Talk:Caroline Glick and User talk:Shimeru, but I don't see it on either place- did you try talking to Shimeru about your concern? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a page that has been protected by an administrator stating that until 21 June this should be discussed. The protected page has been modified by someone who has the tools to modify such page and go against what has been clearly stated as a block to editing. I have previously indicated my concerns regarding this block.

And yet, it seems that the burden of question falls upon me as to why an editor with the tools to override this was not notified? Seriously, 3 edits?

A supra-editor with the tools to override this was not informed that a protected article had a "bring it to the talk page, folks" tag?

Look I don't expect this to be reverted. The editor in question has been notified by Onorem as to why he made such modifications on a protected page. He is not here and why should he, considering the responses. I believe there is an "all editors are equal but some editors are more equal than others" circumstance. I do find it strange that when I point at an egregious misuse of the admin tool that it somehow falls upon me to have the burden for not telling the supra-editor that there is a 21-June protection on the article.

With all due respect, it makes no sense.GaussianCopula (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you under the impression that admins are not permitted to edit protected pages? They are- in fact, they're supposed to, in certain situations. The way it's supposed to work is that, when there's a disruptive dispute, the involved editors can come to a consensus about what changes should be made, and then an administrator will make the agreed-upon changes on their behalf. There seems to be clear consensus on the talk page that the section on alleged racism was biased and should be re-written in a more neutral way, which seems to be what User:Shimeru did in those edits, in accordance with the discussion. You seem to be objecting to her editing the article, but that's exactly what is supposed to happen. Is your objection that you don't think her edits correctly represent what the consensus on the talk page indicated? If so, you should simply say so, on the talk page, suggesting specifically what you think should be changed. Perhaps she could have waited until the discussion agreed on an exact wording for the changes, but the discussion doesn't seem to have gone in that direction, and her changes do seem to be in the spirit of the consensus on the talk page. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

As to your implied accusation that User:Shimeru has not contributed to this discussion because he is in the wrong... you only opened the discussion an hour ago. It's possible that Shimeru is eating, or sleeping, or spending time with his family, or watching television, or having drunken-weasel sex with his husband or wife, or any of a thousand things that people do when they aren't on the internet. I don't think that spending an hour away from Wikipedia is definite evidence of wrongdoing. I occasionally sign out, too. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Shimeru is an admin folks. Toddst1 (talk) 23:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that point was overlooked by anyone commenting so far. --Onorem♠Dil 23:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I think you may be a bit confused, GaussianCopula. First, I am not the admin who protected the page ("blocked this from being further edited"), nor did I have any influence in causing it to be protected. Second, the first two edits are entirely uncontroversial: the first, eliminating a sentence that was not supported by the source it was cited to; the second, correcting a misspelling and a mistaken citation that had been pointed out on the talk page by another user, Potterjazz (talk · contribs). Third, I had in fact proposed the third edit on the talk page 6 days prior to making it, and there have been no objections. Fourth, I was entirely aware that the page was protected; even if I'd missed the notification, the entire editing window shows up in pale red-orange, rather than its usual white, which is very difficult to overlook. (And fifth, I wasn't here because I wasn't online.) I'm open to reverting the third edit if a good case for it is made, although I don't think making it was an error. I'm not open to reverting the first two, because reintroducing factual errors would not in any way be helpful. Shimeru 23:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

SamEV

Note: Moved from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#User SamEV.

Edit warring repeatedly. Has been blocked in the past for edit warring and seems to strong arm multiple pages. Is the subject of various wiki discussions due to his editting style. He ignores attempts to dialogue as can be seen here [[52]] . Please take a look at his edits for possible sanction. CashRules (talk) 22:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC) Includes: 17:05, 3 June 2010 (diff | hist) m Latin America ‎ (Undid revision 365757171 by Juleon Powe (talk)/rv unencyclopedic crap) also has been reported here before http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=prev&oldid=358558914#User:SamEV_reported_by_User:Salaamshalon_.28Result:_.29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by CashRules (talk • contribs) 22:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Ignore obvious attempt at character assassination by a user who's almost certainly the latest guise of the indefinitely blocked UnclePaco (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) aka Armyguy11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) aka Mykungfu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), etc, etc. SamEV (talk) 22:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Character Assassination right? So I wonder where this comes from [53] 07:03, 29 March 2007 Viridae (talk | contribs) blocked SamEV (talk | contribs) (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (3RR on Spanish language) 21:54, 19 March 2007 Asterion (talk | contribs) blocked SamEV (talk | contribs) (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (Edit war at Spanish language) You consistently violate wiki civil rules on different pages. Maybe more admin's should take a look at you! CashRules (talk) 22:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, so you've found a couple of blocks from an honest content dispute from a time when I was, despite having joined Wikipedia 2.7 years earlier, still relatively inexperienced (did I even have 1000 edits? Count them and let me know) and unacquainted with Wikipedia's ways. And did I mention that they're from over 3 years ago? Shouldn't I have committed some much, much more terrible offenses in the 3-plus years since if I'm the kind of editor you claim I am? You're not trying hard enough.

As for you, CashRules/UnclePaco, your abuse of Wikipedia is egregious and a proven fact. Your edits, under your various accounts, speak clearly: you're a bad faith editor, and I will file an SPI on you as soon as I find it possible. SamEV (talk) 23:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:CashRules, you've accused User:SamEV of edit-warring, but for evidence, you provide a discussion page, a 3RR complaint from several months ago that was declined as being 'frivolous,' and blocks that happened three years ago. What article is SamEV currently edit-warring on? The only dispute I see is at Dominican Republic, where you are exactly as guilty of edit-warring as SamEV is, so if I block him, I will have to also block you. In addition, your proposed edits seem to be tainted by a specific point of view, with a goal of skewing that article toward a more negative tone, and I don't see consensus on the article talk page for your desired edits. I don't know whether or not SamEV is correct that you are the same person as blocked editor UnclePaco, but I can see that your accusations are unfair, your evidence is outdated, and your motivations are murky. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)