Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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User:Tenmei's abusing AfD and personal attacks

Statement of complaint

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseon tongsinsa

I have been continuously attacked by Tenmei (talk · contribs) on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseon tongsinsa and relevant talk pages. I had not been interacted with the user until I found out that three articles on a same subject of Korean and Japanese relationship exist Wikipedia such as Korean missions to Edo created by the uer, Joseon Tongsinsa and Joseon tongsinsa. Except Tenmei, the other creators do not seem to be active for months. Therefore, I visited him to suggest for merging the three in due course.[1] His articles is the newest one, so I thought his article should be merged into the oldest one. The discussion started peacefully[2] [3] except a little friction on the title. He started to attack my comment on User:LordAmeth's talk page[4], so I said him to be civil.[5]

However, the user suddenly kept out of the normal track and nominated one of them for deletion in the middle of the discussion. His rationales for the deletion is Joseon tongsinsa does not meet WP:V and its title with the proper noun is not WP:English. However, the Japanese user did some research on my contributions, and stated that his nomination is because I've been engaging in editing Comfort women. Also the user clearly states about his WP:Ownership on his created article. Almost everyone said the AFD is ill-attempted, so recommended him to withdraw the nomination[6] [7] and encouraged us to keep the discussion for merge. Other editor pointed out on his usage of the perjorative "Wonkery" as well.[8]. I also implemented the article with a reliable Korean sources to prevent the deletion of contents. However, he even doubts the source and makes the AFD page with adding all irrelevant things to make WP:POINT to delete the whole content and agendas like Liancourt rocks.[9] [10] [11] [12] As he also uses very vicious languages against me and drags his anti-Korean sentiment to the AFD, so I gave him warning and requested him to remove his ill-faith comments and disorganized and unhelpful contents from there. He also pasted my warning to him without my permission several times.[13] [14] He rather more making inexcusable ad hominem attacks regardless of the chances.[15] The AFD is going to nowhere. The page turns out to be a place for him to abuse the procedure and make personal attacks based on his strong bias against Korean editors. The user recently was recently reported for his personal attacks like this. WP:ANI#Personal abuse and disruptive behaviour by Tenmei filed by admin, Nick Dowling. I think the user really need a proper lesson on WP:Civility. Thanks.--Caspian blue (talk) 01:24, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Tenmei's verbal attacks.

This article comes to my attention because a Korean editor experienced in the harsh melée flowing from Ilbongun wianbu proposed merging Joseon Tongsinsa and Joseon tongsinsa and Korean missions to Edo. including the gravamen of that paragraph Caspian blue has crafted. The sum of Caspian blue's contributions affirm my dour pessimism. If Caspian blue is joined by other like-minded tag team editors who similarly feign wounded indignation, angered offense, and stumbling-block misunderstandings as a disruptive tactic, the success of that strategy is virtually assured. Any hopes for collaborative work on this article are dashed. In the face of what seems like adolescent nationalistic ardour, any scholarly collaboration becomes quickly pointless -- especially in light of the entirely ineffective dispute resolution processes now in place. Wikipedia has been proven to be quite ill-equipped to deal with a concerted, agenda-driven attack of the sort which has been directed at Liancourt rocks. Without a strategy to avert the kind of failure which characterizes that article about an outcrop in the what the Koreans call the Eastern Sea and others call the Sea of Japan, this quickly becomes worse than a waste of time. It is entirely likely that Caspian blue and others similarly disposed will not realize that the Joseon era Silhak school of scholarship which underpins the historic salutatory significance of a Korea-centric dialectic Given the tenor and tone of the run-on paragraph Caspian blue has spewed out, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that an indignant, offended and angry critic won't otherwise know An aroused anti-Japanese bias would likely inhibit a willingness to learn that, while this may not be the first printed description of Korean sovereignty expressing itself through diplomatic initiatives the 18th century editor of Isaac Titsingh's work, and Jean-Pierre Abel-Rémusat, the first Professor of Chinese at the University of Paris, collaborated on pre-Hepburn transliterations to which Caspian blue objects vociferously. In the absence of anything better, this proffered text doesn't deserve derision; and that very derisive contempt diminishes my willingness to engage in a discussion which likely has no chance of enhancing the quality of the article. Caspian blue -- Nope. Not having the affect you seek. FACT: You are offensive -- stop it. You've been offensive for some time; and I've been trying to figure out how to contrive an alchemy which will allow me to focus on the scholarly issues which interest me. It's taken a while to sort through my thoughts, but ignoring you isn't esaclty the answer. NO -- you and your ilk require a quite different strategy. Do us all a favor -- just stop. FACT: You perversely aim to construe anything and everything as a new cause for argument -- stop it. FACT: Your claimed distress is a mere sham. My advice to you -- Find someone else to trouble. FACT: This arguing gambit is a kind of fraud, and it really can't withstand close scrutiny. Instead of bothering me, why don't you focus attention on something constructive, anything. On the other hand, if you're determined to try to make a fuss, you'll have to be more specific. I've done nothing, written nothing, contributed nothing for which I have any regrets except that it took so long for me to figure out a tentative strategy for handling the problems you present. You've managed to feed your appetite for argument in other settings, but maybe all I need to do is to demand you abandon innuendo and instead that you make your complaints specific. Then it's my challenge to figure out how to divert a rambling rant into anything to do with credible source.

--Caspian blue (talk) 02:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Tenmei, do not alter my report on you.[16] I'm trying to keep the report as succinct as possible as holding your notable verbal attacks. You altered my statement and posted to the AFD without my permission several times. That is a no-no, and you've been warned for your disruptive behaviors more than enough. You said I'm editing Wikipedia for anti-Japanese sentiment and doing "tag teaming". Those false accusations are ill and malicious personal attacks done by you. That's why you're summoned here. --Caspian blue (talk) 13:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Caspian blue is attacking me

This is is an extraordinary example of what is called "gaming the system" in wiki-talk; and it deserves to be examined with close scrutiny an and a heightened attention to what actually happened here.

Responding to this very serious charge will take some time; but as a first blush look at this complaint, why don't you click on the hidden text which Caspian blue has created. Look at the last of the choice quotes which are presented as proofs of my intolerable behaviour. The red font text shows what was edited out, and the external link simply provides proof that what I wrote and what is posted here are significantly different. This isn't just bad form. This isn't just an accident. NO -- this is something worse; and the rest of the serial charges Caspian blue has made here can be similarly addressed and deflated seriatim. However, it does take longer to expose and quash a deliberate fraud than it took to create the misleading evidence which supports this false allegation. --Tenmei (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I am involved in this only in that I voted in the AFD discussion. After CaspianBlue posted a request on my talk page, I have done some looking into the dispute, but not perhaps enough. Here are some preliminary ideas. First, CaspianBlue and Tenmei both seem to be non-native-English speakers, and ones from different cultures. They should both realize the difficulties of communicating and working together in a foreign language. Tenmei, especially, seems to become very upset whenever he/she perceives incivility - I think that Tenmei should be very careful to assume good faith on the part of other editors, and try to not get upset at what is, in American terms, a reasonable discussion. Tenmei should, at all costs, not abuse other editors - that accomplishes nothing. Tenmei seems to be capable of contributing usefully and working with other editors; he/she should strive to do so always. One thing Tenmei must, however, learn - discussions suffer from the addition of large text blocks. Adding long, rambling, and unnecessary blocks of text to discussions harms the discussion and irritates other editors. Tenmei must learn to discuss in a concise and on-topic fashion. Long documents should be placed in user-space or other off-topic locations and linked to if necessary; comments should be short and concise (unlike this one, but I'm trying to say a number of things). I think Tenmei should be given a chance to change his/her behavior, if they want to try, rather than being blocked. Brianyoumans (talk) 13:24, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

NO to "strong bias against Korean editors"

This a phoney claim -- contrived for purposes I can't fathom. We all come to Wikipedia for a variety of reasons. In my case, Caspian blue seems to have come looking for a fight, hoping for an argument, angling for something to complain about. I avoided participating in that game to a greater extent than I would have thought possible given the repeated provocations. The clear record which is saved by the Wikipedia system will show that Caspian blue set out to create something out of nothing. I won't get into why this happened. I don't have to do that. I don't have to explain what motivated this. However, I do intend to show that I neither initiated nor participated in anything like a "personal attack" as defined in wiki-terms. No.

The one phrase that most deserves to be highlighted above is "strong bias against Korean editors." This could be a very serious charge, but it deserves to be rejected as completely out-of-place here.

This is over-reaching, and in way -- sad; but to the extent that the accusation is designed to cause me harm, it needs to bring down harsh rejection in a fashion that Caspian blue cannot misunderstand. --Tenmei (talk) 02:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I wrote the following. I'll address the other specific complaints Caspian blue makes; but for now, this is a good beginning. There is no offense in this -- but there is a demonstration of the plain fact that I've had the good fortune to learn from a children's story -- The Emperor's New Clothes.

The fact of the matter is that there are problems in some articles which involve both Korea and Japan. There is current strife between Korea and Japan. That's not a revelation of any kind of anti-Korean bias, it's just the way it is. Having written an article about a time when something went right between Korea and Japan, the question Caspian blue and others force me to confront is how to foster scholarly collaboration -- analysis, text and source development. At the same time, the task becomes one of figuring out how to avoid the endless litany of pitfalls which fill the talk pages of articles like Liancourt Rocks and Comfort Women, just to name two of them. What to do is a real question -- it's not "Korean bashing" unless heightened sensitivity, thin-skinned indignation and a need for something to argue about are combined to make something out of nothing for reasons I don't have to understand ....

I see a problem which affects my ability to work effectively on the task of improving Wikipedia articles, and I did address it in a straightforward manner. As a first step, read what I wrote. The following is an invitation to work together towards worthwhile goals. It was rejected entirely and instead, Caspian blue wants to fulfill a quite different need.

Instead of adding in-line citations and reference sources to Joseon Tongsinsa or Korean missions to Edo or just any article which attracts interest, Caspian blue chooses to focus on me.

-- Note: The collapsed text is more fully parsed elsewhere below. --Tenmei (talk) 18:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Extended content

Read the following and decide for yourself where I've tried to engineer my focus: Withdrawal from AfD Taemyr counsels me to withdraw the AfD listing. If advised again to do so, I will comply with good adice ... but then what? - * ------ * ------ * - In re-visiting Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, I was inspired to examine Wikipedia:Userfication#Userfication of deleted content. If someone else is able to stretch WP:AGF farther than I'm able to do -- if we assume that everything above is really nothing more than a big mistake, then would it be reasonable to consider "userfication" of the text posted at Joseon tongsinsa? The citations look like bad faith to me, but the reference source is real. Taemyr counsels me to keep focused on the potential of this article. Frankly, I don't quite understand what this would achieve ... but it could be construed as a recognition of the importance of Korean contributions, especially in the process of developing further articles which flow from Foreign relations of Imperial China.< Both Joseon Tongsinsa and Korean missions to Edo at present account for only a relatively short 300-year period in the history of the Joseon Dynasty, and Korean scholarship will continue to be important as this subject evolves over time. This could provide an excellent opportunity for collaboration -- the complementary historical records which were developed using primarily Korean sources or using primarily Japanese sources could be explored jointly. Just because this seems to have started off badly doesn't mean that more constructive alternatives can't be imagined. --Tenmei (talk) 19:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC) - * ------ * ------ * - In response to Taemyr's well-reasoned and patient counsel, I have been persuaded that it is no longer essential that Joseon tongsinsa be deleted, but that does not mean I disagree with Stifle. With Taemyr's help, I've begun to think I may see another way to handle what seemed like an intractable problem, but I truly don't know what's best. Fundamentally, the impeccable posture of Taemyr's wiki-weltanshauung still troubles me because it necesssarily implies a deliberative cognitive dissonance, a stance which is undeniably best in this setting .... This is in no way a criticism or a complaint. I have nothing but thanks to offer Taemyr as I acknowledge his thoughtful assistance in helping me begin to re-evaluate a small problem from a broader perspective. There is no reason for Taemyr to have expanded the ambit of this AfD evaluation to include a consideration of Liancourt rocks, also known as Dokdo (or Tokto) (독도/獨島, literally "solitary island") in Korean and as Takeshima (竹島, , literally "bamboo island") in Japanese,[17][18] [19] [20] which is currently move and semi-protected. There is no cause for complaint if Stifle was entirely unaware of the following not-"normal editing" notice which has been posted by administrators on this not-unique page: ----This is a controversial topic. Before making substantial changes, please ----read the talk page and make sure to edit only in a spirit of cooperation. ----This article is currently under special administrative surveillance and ----absolutely no edit-warring will be tolerated. ----Users who make more than 1 revert in a 24-hour period will be blocked. ----Incivility and edit-warring will not be put up with, and all reverts must be discussed fully ----on the talk page before you revert. Not after! Thank you. Although Brianyoumans may have known about controversial Dokdo class amphibious assault ship[21][22] and about ROK naval manoevers last month [23] [24] , there was no obvious reason to acknowledge that current events might impact an AfD concerning a 17th-19th century subject. Indeed, Brianyoumans constructively noted that "the Tongsinsas seem to have been seized upon as an example of good Korea-Japan relations." I did know about something about these subjects -- enough to be scrupulously concerned in crafting Korean missions to Edo so as to avoid, as best I could, any plausible cause for controversy. That I was unsuccessful in real world terms does not undercut the extent to which I did manage to comply explicitly with WP:V -- and my efforts were for naught. Two specific sentences informed this AfD nomination; and to both my response was a clear, unequivocal, disgusted NO -- NOT POSSIBLE: 1. "If the article can be fixed through normal editing, then it is not a good candidate for AfD." -- NO, CAN'T BE FIXED 2. "Articles should only be deleted when the issues are not repairable." -- NO, NOT REPAIRABLE The sum of Caspian blue's contributions affirm my dour pessimism. If Caspian blue were joined by other like-mindedAny future tag team editors who similarly feign wounded indignation, angered offense, and stumbling-block misunderstandings as a disruptive tactic at Korean missions to Edo, the success of that strategy is virtually assured. Any hopes for collaborative work on this article are dashed. In the face of what seems like adolescent nationalistic ardour, Any scholarly collaboration becomes quickly pointless -- especially in light of the entirely ineffective dispute resolution processes now in place. Wikipedia has been proven to be quite ill-equipped to deal with a concerted, agenda-driven attack of the sort which has been directed at Liancourt rocks. Without a strategy to avert the kind of failure which characterizes that article about an outcrop in the what the Koreans call the Eastern Sea and others call the Sea of Japan, this quickly becomes worse than a waste of time. The dignified and sober Taemyr asks "What is best?" Stifle thinks deletion is a better course of action. I myself don't know but I would invite consideration of the following: ONE: It is frustrating that the following fell on deaf ears in this AfD venue: "The article I wrote about the 12 Joseon missions to the Tokugawa court in Edo is fully cited with links embedded in some of the citations; but the rough-draft text was created using only Japanese-, French- and English-language sources. In this instance, I was personally very eager for this to work out because I looked for collaboration in resolving pre-Hepburn romanizations of Korean names in reports of Joseon missions as recorded in Nihon Ōdai Ichiran. Instead, the myriad perceived causes for acrimony were too subtle, too intractable, too omni-present for me to have done more than is shown here; but I hope that an oblique approach may achieve different results. In my view, the subject justifies putting in a little extra effort ...." --Tenmei (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC) TWO::It is frustrating that it would take hours to respond to just one paragraph Caspian blue posted at Talk:Korean missions to Edo#Merge#Opposition to Merge, and in all probability the questions were merely rhetorical -- which means that any misguided attempt to respond calmly, rationally, critically will only become fodder for yet another perverse escalation of angry accusations: Hmmm..you added several wrong names. There is no such named Korean officials, and you fix your wrong name/pronunciation after reading Joseon Tongsinsa and Joseon tongsinsa) into the article. It seems like one of your source is not that reliable per the false info. (who the hell are Ko tsi tsiou (or Houng tchi tchoung) and Tsiou nan gouts (or Thsieou nan yuě) ? You should've checked the source first and check their name. The Korean ambassadors are neither Japanese nor Chinese. Besides, the years such as Kan'en are only for Japanese point of view. I have to ask you that why you added some info from the article of Joseon Tongsinsa, and oppose to merging all together on contrary to your claim for WP:V. WP:V is a very important policy, the two other articles are lied in only matter of references, and WP:OR is irrelevant to here. --Caspian blue (talk) 13:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC) Fostering scholarly collaboration -- analysis, text and source development It is entirely likely that Caspian blue and others similarly disposed will not realize that the Joseon era Silhak school of scholarship which underpins the historic salutatory significance of a Korea-centric dialectic has its roots in the same Neo-Confucianism (성리학) which profoundly affected Japan's Yushima Seidō (湯島聖堂) and the Hayashi clan (林氏, Hayashi-shi). Given the tenor and tone of the run-on paragraph Caspian blue has spewed out, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that an indignant, offended and angry critic won't otherwise know or allow me to explain that the 19th century version of Nihon Ōdai Ichiran which has been so profoundly disparaged is, in fact, the first non-European history text compiled by a Japanese author and published in the West. An aroused anti-Japanese bias would likely inhibit a willingness to learn that, while this may not be the first printed description of Korean sovereignty expressing itself through diplomatic initiatives, it is amongst the earliest to be widely disseminated in the West. In the diatribe above, the mere fact that a Japanese source did mention a relevant Japanese era name was construed as evidence of an anti-Korean insult which deserved a resounding rebuff ... and WP:V becomes utterly irrelevant in such circumstances. Caspian blue points out that the Korean ambassadors are neither Japanese nor Chinese. Yes, but that complaint overlooks the fact that Hangul was disfavoured even in the 17th century Joseon court; and what else was Hayashi Gahō, the 17th century author to do but to record the transliterations of Korean names in 17th century Japanese and Chinese? Julius Klaproth, the 18th century editor of Isaac Titsingh's work, and Jean-Pierre Abel-Rémusat, the first Professor of Chinese at the University of Paris, collaborated on pre-Hepburn transliterations to which Caspian blue objects vociferously. In the absence of anything better, this proffered text doesn't deserve derision; and that very derisive contempt diminishes my willingness to engage in a discussion which likely has no chance of enhancing the quality of the article. My plausibly constructive action and my potentially collaborative initiative in incorporating un-sourced modern McCune-Reischauer romanizations or Revised Romanizations of Hangul names from Joseon Tongsinsa in the body of Korean missions to Edo could have been construed as a cooperative gesture rather than as a further cause for offense -- but no. NO -- that's not how it played out. No, no -- perhaps only an impractical optimism underpins my hopes for anything better. No, no -- this doesn't bode well. Perhaps Stifle is correct. Maybe deleting the article is best after all. Perhaps the only practical way forward is to address close scrutiny to sentence-by-sentence edits to Korean missions to Edo as they develop over the coming months and years. --Tenmei (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I don't even read your lengthy rambling but still seem like you fill with same disdainful false accusations. Your serious false charge of me are all attached above. You abuse the AFD from the ill-faith as filling with all bashing instead of focusing the AFD. Besides, you paste the same comment from the AFD. Even User:LordAmeth said that you have a tendency to make personal attacks to editors. Heh.. he knows you way better than me. Well, this rambling seem to be your tactic to distract people's attention. I think you really deserve a proper sanction. Will see.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Good grief. I have read both of your ramblings and they are entirely long, winded, and contradictory. Can both of you sum it up in a few paragraphs, with relevant citations, so that the administrators can infer just what has gone on? Thanks, seicer | talk | contribs 03:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

  If you read my thread only (I sum up the situation), you can grasp why he should be reported to here. More shortly, Tenmei who has tendency to make personal attacks suddenly made a peaceful merging proposal to be a place for making personal attacks at the AFD. He drags irrelevant articles like Liancourt Rocks and Comfort women which I have edited as a method of attack and distrust for my merging suggestion. He also claims that the nominated article should be completely deleted even after it is getting cited with a reliable source by me. I said he should be stop his making personal attacks and removed irrelevant bashing from the AFD, but he refuses and keeps continuing such behaviors. My report is not for a content dispute, but for his so impeccable behaviors.--Caspian blue (talk) 03:34, 28 August 2008(UTC)

Sub-thread: Other contexts and other editors

• Comment This seems to be similar to Tenmei's highly uncivil and disruptive behaviour towards me and other editors over the Hyūga class helicopter destroyer article. In my experiance this editor routinely responds to disagreements with long and highly uncivil posts and escalates minor disagreements into major disputes as he not willing to enter into good-faith discussions but instead stubbonly sticks to his position and attacks editors who have different views. Tenmei has been warned many times for his uncivil and disruptive behaviour and has been asked to condense his long-winded talk page posts as these are not contributing to discussions, but this has had no observable impact. Diffs to some of Tenmei's uncivil comments involving the Hyūga class article include: [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31] and [32] and the warnings Tenmei has recieved for his behaviour on that article include [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39] and [40]. As this editor is displaying a consistant pattern of misbehaviour I believe that some form of block would be appropriate. Nick Dowling (talk) 08:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• It appears too obvious that Tenmei inflates a tiny thing to be a drastic WP:SOAP as resorting to personal attacks. I don't why the user has to show strong enmity toward me as pulling irrelevant matters to the AFD. --Caspian blue (talk) 13:17, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Indented exchange between Seicer and Tenmei, seems unrelated to Dowling-initiated the sub-thread --Tenmei (talk) 16:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

• I received this demand on my talk page. That was followed with this equally long rant on a totally unrelated thread at ANI. seicer | talk | contribs 14:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Seicer -- If you are not an administration to whom I should have presented a request about restoring what was reverted, to whom should I have gone. I wrote "please" which was coupled with a request to do something. If that is perceived as a demand, I don't know what to say.

I'm in no position to demand anything from you. In fact, as far as I know, no one can demand anything from anyone else in the Wikipedia environment. I asked -- that's it. I take it your answer is "no" and that the question should not have been directed to you.

As for your worry about that mis-posted "rant," I can move it here where it was intended to be posted.

I would have thought that "rant" was perjorative. If so, it is undeserved. What I did do was to use the template provided at WP:CIVIL as a tool to organize my response to a charge that I have been more than uncivil -- that my alleged anti-Korean bias has been exacerbated by a wrongful personal attack. That's not a rant -- certainly not in the context of this rapidly changing thread. --Tenmei (talk) 15:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Those diffs you provide show no evidence of incivility. [41]: What incivility? Weird yes, but incivil no. [42]: I don't know what diff he is defending here, there might be incivility in the comment that lead to the warning but I can find none in this diff. [43] and [44]: I don't see anything that could be construed as incivility here.

[45]: On it's own it seems merely to be Tenmei stating that he feels that Nick Dowling is choosing to ignoring reliable sources. Context might mean that this is a personal attack, but in general one must be allowed to disagree with other editors. [46]: No incivility, although a clear element of failure to AGF on Tenmei's part. [47]: Clearly not helpfull, but not a personal attack. [48]: Why do you give this diff twice? Taemyr (talk) 18:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The other editors who warned Tenmei for those posts regarded them as uncivil and highly disruptive - I imagine that you would also be offended if I accused you of "framing sham "queries"", dismissed your responses out of hand or accused you of plotting and acting in bad faith. Sorry for posting the diff twice - that was an accident. To summarise a long story, Tenmei was insisting that the article on the ships label them aircraft carriers, when there is no consensus on what kind of ship they are. Rather than participate in a good faith discussion he abused the other editors, sat out the process of drafting text to describe the ambiguity over the ships' classification and then restarted the dispute. The same behavior seems to be occuring in this dispute - complete with Tenmei's incredibly over-long and unreadable posts. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Dowling -- I don't see the constructive purpose served by this thread. Rest assured that I have no hesitation about addressing whatever it is you are proffering here. When time permits, I will return to re-visit the knowingly inaccurate summary which has been posited above. With regret, I suppose this posting is unsurprising. Indeed, I was warned that something like this would likely happen, if not now then at some other point in the future. However, in the context of the specific instances which are alleged to have caused Caspian blue to lodge a complaint in this venue, a request for a little more specificity seems not unreasonable.

Dowling -- What evidence of Korea-bashing or anti-Korean bias is to be adduced from my participation in Hyūga class helicopter destroyer? Were there other contexts or other issues you hoped to highlight in the context Caspian blue creates? If so, please be specific so they can be addressed seriatim. By all means, please edit the sub-heading for this section if, as I suspect, it does not sufficiently reflect what you had in mind. --Tenmei (talk) 16:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I posted my message here as it was at the bottom of the thread at the time as per normal talk page procedure. I was asked to comment on your behavior and it's clear that you've failed to pay any attention to the many warnings you were given for the Hyūga class article and are continuing to rudely make mountains out of molehills. As it's you whose been adding sub-headings to describe other editors posts (which is an unusual practice) don't go complaining about the sub-headings not matching the content of the posts. Nick Dowling (talk) 01:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Dowling -- You note that adding thread sub-headings is non-standard; and you also observe that much else in my Wikipedia participation is non-standard. Thank you for recognizing one of the valuable contributions I make by participating in Wikipedia -- no less in this venue than elsewhere. I the last sentence of your paragraph above, you also exhibit characteristic trait in attempting to contrive a cause for disagreement where none exists.

As you may remember, you you were offended at my temerity in removing brackets which created a link within a sub-heading you created. I did not know then that headings were sacrosanct, and I still believe this just something you made up. Nevertheless, with your complaint in mind, I invited you to edit a thread sub-heading I had created. There is no complaint in the following:

By all means, please edit the sub-heading for this section if, as I suspect, it does not sufficiently reflect what you had in mind.

I would argue that this non-standard invitation to collaborative editing is typical -- as is the contrived indignation such attempts to build bridges seem destined to evoke.[49] I offer no apology for the length of this sentence nor for its substance. --Tenmei (talk) 15:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait! This thread is becoming so complex, I can't sort out how to respond

This can't be made simpler while the thread grown more complex faster than I can figure it out. My initial attempts to clarify have been reverted already. Caspian blue deleted the words which were left out from what has been posted above. This means my words are not read in context. This becomes an impossible hurdle.

Wikipedia:Civility#Engaging in incivility
In the illustrative list of behaviors which can contribute to an uncivil environment, insults and name-calling are near the top of that list. On the same line, there is a helpful injunction -- an inviation to "comment on the actions and not the editor." This is what I have done. In order to identify which actions deserve comment, it is inevitably necessary to identify a specific individual or group of individual editors. That, I have done; and as long as I scrupulously focus on actions and content, there is no personal abuse -- no incivility. Taking umbrage as a way of avoiding further discussion of actions and content can be a mistake, an emotional misunderstanding, a faux pas. In this case, the feigned umbrage is gaming the system. That has always been the fear which motivated the resort to AfD, and that worry is now born out as fully valid.

Also in that illustrative list at Wikipedia:Civility#Engaging in incivility is a warning against "taunting; deliberately pushing others to the point of breaching civility even if not seeming to commit such a breach themselves." Caspian blue has been pushing for something to argue about, angling for a dispute, and posturing to use indignation or feigned offense as a cause to achieve a disagreement. This is not conduct which deserves to be rewarded; and Wikipedia is diminished to the extent that an agenda-driven campaign like this is encouraged in any way.

In a sense, Wikipedia:Civility#Engaging in incivility anticipates both of my invitations to explain myself at WP:AN/I when the illustrative list includes "ill-considered accusations of impropriety;" but while the content dispute which was treated here as a personal dispute with Nick Dowling is be partly explained by cognitive dissonance, this fake-issue, this ersatz-problem with Caspian blue is an entirely different matter. This is a cake baked from scratch by a knowing baker with a recipe in mind.

The easiest proof of my innocence and Caspian blue culpability is in "deliberately asserting false information on a discussion page in order to mislead" and in "quoting another editor out-of-context in order to give the impression that he or she hold views they do not hold, or in order to malign them."

This was never a simple situation, and it can't be resolved by ignoring the context. At its root, Caspian blue has proffered a complaint of foul play, discrimination because of an intolerable bias against Koreans. The nature of that complaint takes this out of the ordinary run of disputes which appear on this page.

Ultimately, Caspian blue's complaint runs afoul the last of the items on the list of behaviors which can contribute to an uncivil environment -- "feigned incomprehension" or "playing dumb." In this instance, Caspian blue's actions are revealing, rather the lack of actions. When an perceived offense was discovered or announced, where was there a realistic opportunity to address that offense with an explanation. The record will show that there was never that kind of opportunity. Rather, Caspian blue was carefully saving up a list of insults and slights and offenses so that cumulatively they could be made into something to complain about.

In conclusion, this was a campaign, an orchestrated strategy. How can I address it without putting my own words in context? That's an essential objective ... else innuendo becomes the only coin which buys anything.

I have to be able to put my words in context; and I can't keep up with constant reverts which happen too fast for me to follow. --Tenmei (talk) 14:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Tenmei (talk · contribs), I used to hear a complaint that I made a long-winded report but you surpass me indeed. I don't need to waste my time to read "irrelevant ramblings". It seems that this is your tactic to get out of your charges because you know nobody read "lengthy complaint". You did the same thing to the last report on your disruptive personal attacks. You initiated to attack me out of nowhere from my peaceful proposal for merging as labeling my comment as "premature, unhelpful, discouraging". The uncivil comment was not a big deal until you nominated the article for deletion with pulling the "race card" and "anti-Japanese sentiment". It is YOU who falsely has accused me that I'm editing by tag-teaming with others and do not deserve to edit the nominated article because I've been editing Comfort women and Liancourt Rocks. (how irrelevant to the article) You are digging my contributions to make the whole content to be deleted, and deliberately chose vicious languages like "skewed out" and you denounced all my contribution history. More than half of the AFD is filled with your bashing about me. You still have a chance to give me your sincere apologies and to retract personal attacks. Oh well, after you got a warning from an admin, but you keep continued your behaviors.--Caspian blue (talk) 16:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Quoting out-of-context in order to malign, Part I

Caspian blue has listed nine examples of "Tenmei's verbal attacks." I can and will respond to all of them; and it will become plain that there never was any personal attack nor was there anything other than an attempt to grapple with a difficult question having difficult consequences. --Tenmei (talk) 17:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• FIRST QUOTE: This article comes to my attention because a Korean editor experienced in the harsh melée flowing from Ilbongun wianbu proposed merging Joseon Tongsinsa and Joseon tongsinsa and Korean missions to Edo.

The article I wrote about the 12 Joseon missions to the Tokugawa court in Edo is fully cited with links embedded in some of the citations; but the rough-draft text was created using only Japanese-, French- and English-language sources. In this instance, I was personally very eager for this to work out because I looked for collaboration in resolving pre-Hepburn romanizations of Korean names in reports of Joseon missions as recorded in Nihon Ōdai Ichiran. Instead, the myriad perceived causes for acrimony were too subtle, too intractable, too omni-present for me to have done more than is shown here; but I hope that an oblique approach may achieve different results. In my view, the subject justifies putting in a little extra effort .... --Tenmei (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC) [This part was edited out because it emphasizes the focus on CONTENT rather than personal attacks.[50].]

RESPONSE:

A. There are articles which are highly controversial. There are people who exacerbate controversy. Some do so intentionally and others do so unintentionally. Without commenting on motivation or intention, the fact remains that there are some whose contributions inflame or worsen an already difficult situation. This happens in life, and it is irrational to conceive of a wiki-reality in which editors do not have the same effect.

B. Regardless of whether Caspian blue was amongst those who make exacerbate or ameliorate any specific emotionally-charged talk page exchange, the fact remains that experience in an environment of heightened strife establishes a tone, a comfort-level, a context which is defined as "normal" based on specific experiences. We all learn from experience, and it is entirely reasonable -- not a criticism -- that prolonged experience at Talk:Comfort women is likely to have produced a conception of what is normal in that context.

C. It is not necessary or vital or productive for that sense of heightened strife from Comfort women (Ilbongun wianbu) or Liancourt Rocks to be replicated in Korean missions to Edo.

D. When I developed a sense that this was escalating too fast into acrimony -- without any apparent causal factor in the context of Talk:Korean missions to Edo, I worried that there may be an external cause; and I tried to figure out how to calm the context for further discourse. The tool of choice for me is WP:V -- focus on the sources, the specific citations, the published facts. Nevertheless, the level of emotionally-charged, accusatory tone continued to worsen.

E. One working hypothesis was that this was a misplaced extension of the on-going contemporary series of disputes between Korea and Japan, between Koreans and Japanese -- nothing to do with Joseon tongsinsa, but everything to do with the present day ... and Wikipedia is naught but another handy battlefield.

F. In the process of testing a hypothesis, it always happens that you look for evidence which seems to support the proposition; and you look for evidence which might lead to another, better formulation of the same hypothesis or another hypothesis altogether.

QUESTION:

Could I have explained all this more succinctly. Should I have expressed these thoughts sooner? If this had been spelled out so clearly, would this clarification have further excited an already inflammatory situation?

CLARIFYING ACTION:

What I did do is this -- I added the following right after the sentence to which Caspian blue objected, hoping to explain in this neutral way rather than making anything worse.[51]

• Ilbongun wianbu redirects to Comfort women; and see Talk:Comfort women with the following templates at the head of the page:

{:{medcabbox|2008-07-25_Comfort_women}} -- This article, Comfort women, is currently the subject of informal mediation from the Mediation Cabal. Please read relevant talk page discussions below before making substantial changes, and respect Wikipedia's talk page guidelines.

{:{calm talk}} -- Discussions on this page may escalate into heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here. See also: Wikipedia:Etiquette.

{:{Controversial-issues}} -- This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed.

Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

• NINTH QUOTE: Caspian blue -- Nope. Not having the affect you seek.

FACT: You are offensive -- stop it. You've been offensive for some time; and I've been trying to figure out how to contrive an alchemy which will allow me to focus on the scholarly issues which interest me. It's taken a while to sort through my thoughts, but ignoring you isn't exaclty the answer. NO -- you and your ilk require a quite different strategy. Do us all a favor -- just stop.

FACT: You perversely aim to construe anything and everything as a new cause for argument -- stop it.

FACT: Your claimed distress is a mere sham. My advice to you -- Find someone else to trouble.

FACT: This arguing gambit is a kind of fraud, and it really can't withstand close scrutiny. Instead of bothering me, why don't you focus attention on something constructive, anything.

On the other hand, if you're determined to try to make a fuss, you'll have to be more specific. I've done nothing, written nothing, contributed nothing for which I have any regrets except that it took so long for me to figure out a tentative strategy for handling the problems you present. You've managed to feed your appetite for argument in other settings, but maybe all I need to do is to demand you abandon innuendo and instead that you make your complaints specific. Then it's my challenge to figure out how to divert a rambling rant into anything to do with credible source.

That's my plan -- not much really. Kinda simple. Alchemy turning dross to gold.

Speaking of gold -- what about that Korean baseball team? Olympic gold. There is only one explanation for that victory -- hard work, practice and teamwork. A good lesson worth learning in any number of contexts. --Tenmei (talk) 00:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC) [This part was edited out because it emphasizes the focus on CONTENT rather than personal attacks.[52].]

RESPONSE:

From first to last, I have always tried to do what is expressly explained here -- to divert non-constructive complaints into anything to do with a credible source. The result of trying to work through this seemingly intractable problem did result in something succinct. The mere fact that these few important words in red font were excluded proves one thing -- they were not perceived as offensive. It is not proof, but it is suggestive that these words were excluded. It suggests that Caspian blue understood well enough that these words were conciliatory and that if they were read in this context, others might be persuaded that my focus was on collaboration, cooperation, consensus and enhancing the quality of the subject which was the focus -- not personal attack, and not anti-Korean discriminatory bias.

QUESTION:

Could I have explained all this better, sooner, clearer? If I had amplified this crisp statement, would the clarification have further excited an already inflamed situation?—Preceding unsigned comment added by tenmei (talk • contribs)

Taemyr escalating the situation by his own personal attacks

Caspian Blue, you have been blocked once in part for attempting to use NPA to solve your content disputes[53], and two more times for edit warring with a pro Korea POV[54]. For this reason it is especially important that you are careful to assume good faith in fellow editors, especially on disputes about Korea related articles. I am personally amazed that you are able to be so certain about what Linmei is trying to say, most admins that have commented in this thread finds getting any real meaning out of Tenmei's comments to be very difficult. Stricken reference is fallout from a run in with a sock farm, it is less indicative of a trend on the part of Caspian than what the block log suggest. Taemyr (talk) 21:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It is quite obvious that you come to condone Tenmei's disruptions as accusing the above admin making "false accusations" to Tenmei. I strongly advise you retract your personal attacks against me and the links. My blocks are deeply involved with "sock/meat farms by pro Japanese and they were indef.blocked for their disruptions. The log has nothing to do with the tread. You have witnessed the AFD was going nowhere with personal attacks. I had assumed good faith, and used up all for his repeated personal attacks. Well if you can't not retract the attack, I will ask admins. --Caspian blue (talk) 19:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not condone Tenmei's statements, there is definitivily an element of incivility there, but I consider your responce to them an overeaction. The fact that you have been blocked over using NPA as a weapon in previous conflicts is relevant, and I see no evidence that Amagase is part of any sock farm. Taemyr (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Overraction? Taemyr, retract your personal attacks and bad faith comment. You mentioned my other blocks, which are related to sockpuppetry's disrutpions. You mock me here to defend Tenmei. I say again, remove your increadiblity uncivil and inappropriate comment. You are no position to mock me in the public place.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you are overreacting, because the fundamental problem with Tenmei is his inability to make himself understood, not civility issues. It is not my intention to mock you. The other blocks is less indicative than what I assumed when looking at your log, and as such is not really relevant to this discussion. Taemyr (talk) 21:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You're the one making the situation getting worst and worst. I said you have to remove your mention of my block log, not partially striking out on your comment and adding another ad hominem attacks in a disguised analysis. You made more attacks not retracting your insults. You know how well your statement anger people. Good faith is not always effective to people like you. You also attacked Nick Dowling, and target at me. Your inappropriate behaviors should be examined.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Tenmei, at the very least statements such as "you and your ilk" is a personal attack. As is the statement "You are offensive". In the latter example note that there is a difference between "You are offensive" and "Your actions are offending me" or "This action offends me". Also, try to keep the discussion you are involved in to the point, you tend to run on a lot, this makes it very hard to get at what you are trying to say. As a consequence people are bound to misunderstand you, and at times this will escalate conflicts you are involved in. Taemyr (talk) 19:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• Folks, much as the above makes the eyes glaze over and inclines one to bypass as TL;DR, I think that Tenmei has proved Caspian Blue's point for him rather well. Question: what, if anything, should be done? Tenmei is clearly exceptionally vexatious, but it's not all one-sided. I'd like to suggest that both disputants accept a 48 hour injunction to disengage, resist the temptation to post further diatribes here, leave all mutually disputed articles alone and allow some space for a measured consideration of the issue - otherwise I'm afraid it's likely to end up with people simply losing patience with the whole festival of Stupid. Guy (Help!) 20:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Retracting 'you and your ilk

Before filing this WP:AN/I, Caspian blue asked User:LordAmeth if I were Japanese. In my view, whatever is going on with Caspian blue has little to do with me. As for what was happening, I don't want to be involved in that difficult speculation.

I did try not to make this worse. Who will not credit me with trying to think through this as best I could? In my view, my efforts to avoid making a bad problem worse should purchase the counseling which will help me figure out how I could have done better ... and that is exactly what I thought was happening at AfD until Caspian blue abandoned a venue in which I thought the participants were helping us re-invent the wheel.

Guy -- Mercutio's curse is not appropriate here -- "A pox on both your houses." Japanese and Korean conflicts may be like the Montagues and Capulets, but I've been trying to figure out how to avoid conflicts, not only with Caspian blue others similarly motivated.

Taemyr -- You identify some of my faux pas above; but this has has nothing to do with Caspian blue in the sense that I am not now, nor have I been angered by this. I've just been frustrated at my inability to participate in a way that makes for a more constructive environment. If "you and your ilk" is an prohibited personal attack, I can withdraw those words immediately. I'm doing my best to be constructive and appropriate. No other interpretation of my edits is accurately reflects my intention. If there are other unacceptable remarks, I can and will remove them in a second. I can even apologize for wrong words, BUT I don't apologize for trying and failing in circumstances which were difficult to fathom.

To whom could I have turned for counsel except to Taemyr? Whatever else you can say about what I was doing, there was a mind at work trying to figure out how to proceed. --Tenmei (talk) 21:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You pulled all anti-Japanese sentiment and race card first because you know I'm Korean, and over analysied my contributiosn and attacked me. Therefore, I have to know why your malicious false accusations come from. According to other editors' saying, you're not a native speaker but uses very odd English. Well, You have to apologize your personal attack. The AFD is clearly your failed attempt filled with the irrelevant matters and your rant.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Tenmei, I urge you to seek a Mentor. The fact that most editors find your style of discussion to be difficult to understand, as well as tending to sidetrack the discussion, is going to be a problem for you and editors around you until you substantially improve your prose. Taemyr (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Caspian blue -- I can and do sincerely apologize for using the term "you and your ilk." Those words are not permitted in this venue, and I am happy to comply with the norms established here. But there is nothing else for which I have any regret except that the consequences were not constructive, nor were they perceived as attempting to conform my behavior in a focus on making Wikipedia better.

If I could be made to understand that other parts of what I've written are deserving of an apology, I will have no problem expressing regret.

Caspian blue -- Do you remember this? You somehow construed this apology as a new cause to get angry:

Please do not feel rushed. Feel free to proceed at a pace which seems comfortable to you. My opposition to the merge can change and will change when in-line citations and bibliographic references are added.

You may want to look at what I've posted at Wikipedia talk:Article Rescue Squadron#Needing diplomacy and finesse. It is possible that this may produce helpful results; and I hope we both find reasons to appreciate the additional help this gesture brings. Maybe we will discover that this gambit was the most constructive step either you or I could have taken.

Please note that it is not possible to engage the attention of this Article Rescue Squadron without listing Joseon tongsinsa as an AfD nominee. Also, please note that I did not list Joseon Tongsinsa as an AfD nominee. --Tenmei 21:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[55]

Caspian blue You told me I was too sensitive and that my words were offensive and uncivil. I apologized -- and yet this was a new cause to get angry.

I am pleased to notice that you consider me too sensitive. That significant difficulty is easily resolved. I will strive to be more flexible.

You mention that you construed my words as "offensive and uncivil." That too is easily resolved. I can and do sincerely apologize for having caused offense -- noting easier or more welcome than to confess regret for having erred when nothing but finesse and diplomatic, cautious langauge was intended. --Tenmei (talk) 21:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[56]

You stroke the comment and then suddenly began to pour all racial cards and analysis at me.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what to do going forward, but apologies aren't helpful -- even when sincere. I will only apologize to the extent that someone like Taemyr counsels me to do. --Tenmei (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, Taemyr defended you as making insults by him. Good behavior.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

So "the nom" means your opinion and another person having to mamke personal attacks? Ha! --Caspian blue (talk) 22:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Substance not well-served by style of communication

Part of my problem is that wiki-norms require me to beat around the bush. Also, Caspian blue construed everything and anything as a new cause for anger -- even an apology caused trouble I don't understand. But what else was I to do except to try to make sense in the only venue where, thanks to Rescue Squadron, there was even half a chance of getting real help?--Tenmei (talk)

THE UNANSWERED QUESTION:

How to limit the kind of problems which mar Liancourt Rocks and Comfort women? How to do something so that Korean missions to Edo (or whatever it is renamed) will not become a battleground? That is the question I've invested time and effort in trying to answer ... or in trying to figure out where to go ...?

Any future tag team editors who feign wounded indignation, angered offense, and stumbling-block misunderstandings as a disruptive tactic at Korean missions to Edo, the success of that strategy is virtually assured. Any hopes for collaborative work on this article are dashed. Any scholarly collaboration becomes quickly pointless -- especially in light of the entirely ineffective dispute resolution processes now in place.

Wikipedia has been proven to be quite ill-equipped to deal with a concerted, agenda-driven attack of the sort which has been directed at Liancourt rocks. Without a strategy to avert the kind of failure which characterizes that article about an outcrop in the what the Koreans call the Eastern Sea and others call the Sea of Japan, this quickly becomes worse than a waste of time.

In the absence of permission to speak more freely, the best I can do is respond to Caspian blue's complaints in an effort to create a constructive outcome ... which was what I thought I was actually managing to to at AfD. In fact, I construe the fact that Caspian blue tried to turn this into something to do with a personal attack was a kind of wierd proof that some of what I was trying to achieve was beginning to become clear.

I'm trying to convert this into something that actually resolves a root problem instead of merely focusing on slapping someone's hand. Under the circumstance, I would have thought that even if my approach is awkward, my persistence deserves to be commended, not derided.

Guy -- This, at least, is not festival of Stupid. --Tenmei (talk) 22:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Quoting out-of-context in order to malign, Part II

The fifth through eighth quotes which Caspian blue cites as proofs of personal attacks and anti-Korean attacks are all related to a single paragraph of complaints which drafted by Caspian blue as an overall criticism of what he seemed to have found offensive at Talk:Korean missions to Edo.[57] This paragraph assumes some knowledge of the subject, but for the purposes of this WP:AN/I the tone is oddly excited and scolding.

Hmmm..you added several wrong names. There is no such named Korean officials, and you fix your wrong name/pronunciation after reading Joseon Tongsinsa and Joseon tongsinsa) into the article. It seems like one of your source is not that reliable per the false info. (who the hell are Ko tsi tsiou (or Houng tchi tchoung) and Tsiou nan gouts (or Thsieou nan yuě) ? You should've checked the source first and check their name. The Korean ambassadors are neither Japanese nor Chinese. Besides, the years such as Kan'en are only for Japanese point of view. I have to ask you that why you added some info from the article of Joseon Tongsinsa, and oppose to merging all together on contrary to your claim for WP:V. WP:V is a very important policy, the two other articles are lied in only matter of references, and WP:OR is irrelevant to here. --Caspian blue (talk) 13:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

RESPONSE:

Caspian blue's paragraph represents an impassioned reaction to passionless, dry prose. Two books and one scholarly article are listed as bibilographic references, and there are 11 in-line citations, all of which include clickable links which may it very easy to check that what is stated in the Wikipedia article is immediately verifiable in a credible, published source. This unassuming draft text -- very little more than a start -- was construed as a cause for anger ... already, at first glance.

A. It is clear that something else is motivating a reaction which is too extreme for any plausible reading of the provocation. I can't guess what that might be; and in any case, I must abjure such thoughts because WP:AGF requires me to avoid that logical path.

B. Although I must resist speculating about the here and now, there is no wiki-policy which prohibits me from recognizing that, if this non-descript text produces such a strong reaction, I am only prudent in anticipating something similar or something more extravagant in the future.

C. I can and do speculate about how to avert similarly dramatic outpourings in the future; and I make guesses about how best to proceed, and these become a number of tentative hypothesis/conjectures.

D. If there was this much trouble flowing from Korean missions to Edo, what about the more complicated text at Joseon tongsinsa? That prospect seemed like it would ensure that this became another Liancourt Rocks, so I posted the AfD and I posted on Rescue Squadron so that the future problems would be mitigated.

QUESTION:

What else could I have done to avoid escalating problems which seemed likely -- not just from Caspian blue, but from unknown others? If I had been more blunt in explaining what I was doing and why, it would have only inflamed the situation, so I was forced to proceed obliquely. Regardless of my intentions, if I can come to understand that I need to apologize to Caspian blue for other comments, other mis-statements, other mistakes, I will be glad to do it if someone can explain to me what I need to apologize for and why? --Tenmei (talk) 23:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

CLARIFYING ACTION:

I anticipated more of the same, if not from Caspian blue, then from others similarly inclined to see no difference between this subject and Liancourt Rocks and Comfort women. In these quotes which are construed as offensive, I showed that I'd tried to understand the Korean perspective, and that what was perceived as offensive was actually respectful. This research also pointed the way towards collaboration and consensus. It fell on deaf ears, but it wasn't a bad thing. In fact, the Silhak school could be a way to construe Caspian blue's disruptive attacks on me as defensible outside the wiki-context which has different norms and rules ... or at least, that was what I was trying to say. What else more could I have tried to do in coming to understand Caspian blue in his own terms?

• FIFTH QUOTE: It is entirely likely that Caspian blue and others similarly disposed will not realize that the Joseon era Silhak school of scholarship which underpins the historic salutatory significance of a Korea-centric dialectic has its roots in the same Neo-Confucianism (성리학) which profoundly affected Japan's Yushima Seidō (湯島聖堂) and the Hayashi clan (林氏, Hayashi-shi).

• SIXTH QUOTE: Given the tenor and tone of the run-on paragraph Caspian blue has spewed out, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that an indignant, offended and angry critic won't otherwise know or allow me to explain that the 19th century version of Nihon Ōdai Ichiran which has been so profoundly disparaged is, in fact, the first non-European history text compiled by a Japanese author and published in the West.

• SEVENTH QUOTE: An aroused anti-Japanese bias would likely inhibit a willingness to learn that, while this may not be the first printed description of Korean sovereignty expressing itself through diplomatic initiatives, it is amongst the earliest to be widely disseminated in the West.

• EIGHTH QUOTE: In the diatribe above, the mere fact that a Japanese source did mention a relevant Japanese era name was construed as evidence of an anti-Korean insult which deserved a resounding rebuff ... and WP:V becomes utterly irrelevant in such circumstances.

Caspian blue points out that the Korean ambassadors are neither Japanese nor Chinese. Yes, but that complaint overlooks the fact that Hangul was disfavoured even in the 17th century Joseon court; and what else was Hayashi Gahō, the 17th century author to do but to record the transliterations of Korean names in 17th century Japanese and Chinese? Julius Klaproth, the 18th century editor of Isaac Titsingh's work, and Jean-Pierre Abel-Rémusat, the first Professor of Chinese at the University of Paris, collaborated on pre-Hepburn transliterations to which Caspian blue objects vociferously. In the absence of anything better, this proffered text doesn't deserve derision; and that very derisive contempt diminishes my willingness to engage in a discussion which likely has no chance of enhancing the quality of the article.

My plausibly constructive action and my potentially collaborative initiative in incorporating un-sourced modern McCune-Reischauer romanizations or Revised Romanizations of Hangul names from Joseon Tongsinsa in the body of Korean missions to Edo could have been construed as a cooperative gesture rather than as a further cause for offense -- but no. NO -- that's not how it played out.

No, no -- perhaps only an impractical optimism underpins my hopes for anything better.

No, no -- this doesn't bode well. Perhaps Stifle is correct. Maybe deleting the article is best after all.

Perhaps the only practical way forward is to address close scrutiny to sentence-by-sentence edits to Korean missions to Edo as they develop over the coming months and years. --Tenmei (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC) [This part was edited out because it emphasizes the focus on CONTENT rather than personal attacks.[58].]

Tenmei, you're now trolling and disrupting ANI as pasting all the same ramblings from the AFD (maybe the last one is third or fourth copy) Now you step up as the most "unique" person whom I've ever encountered in my Wiki life. You think ANI and AFD are your battlegrounds as well as the whole Wikipedia as if you're fighting against illogical people, and you're solely righteous and innocent, aren't you? Open your eyes, and think! You firmly determine to declare who will be survived in your lengthy, intelligible, totally irrelevant and still extremely uncivil ramblings. (the red texts only bother people's eye, and make annoyance toward you) You really make people wasting valuable time with your weird writings. You're proven that you can be very uncivil and deny to acknowledge your errors. I'm pretty sure of that if you would not change your attitude, well you will get a nice treat soon. Good luck.--Caspian blue (talk) 23:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Tenmei apologizes to Caspian blue

Caspian blue -- I appologize for writing "You are offensive" here. --Tenmei (talk) 23:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to use " " and to link your mockeries against me. The tooooo brief sentence is not even an apology and quite contrasts to your lengthy and unreadable ramblings. Another indef.troll is using your personal attack. How great.---Caspian blue (talk) 15:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no mockery or insincerity in the apology above. I was not insincere when I wrote the following, and I still believe it to be valid, accurate, direct, succinct and constructive. However, as it was explained above, in this wiki-setting, I am required to constrict what I truly think; and instead, there are some sentences which are not appropriate, not permissible. Now that I understand that I cannot write "You are offensive," I am apologizing. I did not know it was wrong when I typed it out, but now that I do understand, I have no hesitation admitting that I was wrong. It's as simple and as straight-forward as that.

If you continue to construe mockery and personal attack in everything and anything -- even an apology as clear-cut and uncontroversial as this -- then you appear ridiculous, not because of anything I have said or done, but because your actions, your own words make it hard not to believe that you arise each morning apoplectic, highly excited, ready for a fight about what you believe in. --Tenmei (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

When two men fight over a woman it's the fight they want, not the woman

For example, Helen of Troy had a face that launched a thousand ships. And the rest of her didn't look so good, either. (Apologies to Chico Marx for that one.) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that there's a commonly-used American expression which applies here -- an old joke that when two men fight over a woman it's the fight they want, not the woman. I think it's the fight itself which is most important to Caspian blue. At best, maybe it's an adolescent attempt to do what seems to be the right thing ... but somehow the best intentions fall a little short of the mark? I don't think anyone can sort this one out. I know I can't.

The more important problem at hand is that there are likely to be other similarly-motivated wiki-editors who make the prospects doubtful for any article which includes both Korean and Japanese themes. The future is especially uncertain for articles like Korean missions to Edo and Joseon Tongsinsa which rely for their ultimate success on a collaborative merging of Korean and Japanese scholarship.

These articles seem already to have become another one of those Sterling examples of wiki-failure. As some of us know quite well, there are some Wikipedia articles which have devolved into nothing but proxy battlefields in a centuries-old set of disputes between Korea and Japan, between Koreans and Japanese.

When I created the rough draft of Korean missions to Edo, I thought there was a chance that this specific subject could become a meaningful example of something else -- an illustration of something which worked out well to the advantage of everyone; but whatever progress I thought had been made was dashed when Caspian blue accused me of personal attacks and Korea-bashing. As everyone knows, this deflects attention away from working towards developing commonly-understood objectives ... and indeed, I had some reason to believe that an AfD discussion was working towards a consensus decision, but that was untimely closed merely because of the unsubstantiated allegations Caspian blue posted here.

I tried to find an example of this American saying on the Internet. The following is from a televised discussion about a political compromise in the US Senate in 2005. We don't really need to understand the politics of whatever it is these two men are analyzing -- the objective was simply to find an illustration of an apt phrase used in context.

JIM LEHRER: Take us through this, David. These are your folks -- the conservatives. How are the conservatives going to react to this? Is anybody going to have to pay a price, do you believe?

DAVID BROOKS: I don't think they'll have to pay a price. The conservative like James Dobson are apoplectic. James Dobson wakes up apoplectic. But, you know, they wanted to fight. I'm reminded of that old joke that when two men fight over a woman it's the fight they want, not the woman. They were geared up for this fight. But I think in a not-too-distant future people are going to see that this is a good win for those conservatives because ....[59]

Two wiki-examples of wiki-failures are Liancourt Rocks and Comfort women. I recognize that the real-world disputes about these subjects are both controversial and valid; but the talk pages provide ample evidence that for many contributors, the proxy wiki-fights are more important to the combatants that the article itself.

In the example from American television offers another useful mirror in terms of a word I had to look up in the dictionary. Brooks says that "James Dobson wakes up apoplectic," meaning that he wakes up in morning highly excited, ready for a fight about what he believes in. If I've understood wiki-etiquette correctly, Brooks would be reprimanded at WP:AN/I for writing "Dobson wakes up apoplectic," but I think I can safely write that Caspian blue acts as if he were apoplectic before he clicks into a discussion about Joseon tongsinsa or Korean missions to Edo; and what seems like Caspian blue's frustrated anger is only indirectly related to whatever words are to be read on the computer screen.

For Caspian blue and other peers with whom there is common cause at articles like Liancourt Rocks and Comfort women, it appears as if it is often very difficult to maintain a distinction between what infuriates them in the real world and what is construed as inflammatory, offensive or personal attacks in the wiki-context.

When I nominated Joseon tongsinsa for deletion because it did not comply with WP:V, that was not an anti-Korean gesture.

When Caspian blue added an online Korean encyclopedia entry as a reference source for 4 in-line citations in Joseon tongsinsa, I translated the article via Bablefish. That was not an anti-Korean gesture.

The machine translation was largely unreadable, of course; but by simply highlighting the Gregorian calendar dates with a bold font, it became possible to show that there was no correlation between the alleged citations and the source. That was not an anti-Korean gesture.

I mistook the ensuing silence as an indication that the real work of merging reliably sourced information had at last begun. I was even proud of myself for having stumbled through the onerous task of machine-translated Korean to English which could be read by the other AfD discussion participants.

But NO -- that's not what happened. Instead, the modest momentum of constructive engagement was stalled, quashed, blocked. Instead, the consensus reality of wiki-dispute resolution focuses attention elsewhere. I predict this can only happen again and again ad nauseam as it has played out in other articles.

The task at hand is difficult enough, but it explicitly becomes a Sisyphean exercise unless something is done differently. In my view, Liancourt Rocks and Comfort women are doomed to failure because each are independently re-inventing the wheel over and over again.

Caspian blue has participated in both talk pages -- and I mention this only as a way of demonstrating a knowledge that both articles exist and that both illustrate talk page difficulties. In addition, I know about both these pages, and now anyone who reads these words will know as well -- but where is the wiki-mechanism which allows for a chance that participants at Talk:Korean missions to Edo can profit from the investments of time, energy, and intellectual engagement in difficult discussions on these talk pages?

Other than posting here, what can be done to avoid the endless cycle of re-inventing the wheel in Korean missions to Edo and other similarly difficult articles? --Tenmei (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Why do you write so much? Everything you said above could have been said in one short paragraph. 86.152.160.18 (talk) 22:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

While being concise may be encouraged as a good idea (reader fatigue being a possibility), there is nothing inherently wrong with someone being lengthy in comment. - jc37 23:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Posting grossly over-long messages is hardly good practice and can be seen as a way of shutting down discussions as no-one is going to read them. Tenmei routinely posts these kind of messages in disputes, and doesn't respond to requests that he provide a short summary of what he considers the issue to be, which is both discourteous and unconstructive. Nick Dowling (talk) 01:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

• I asked Tenmei to stop with the rhetoric as it makes any kind of discussion impossible. Guy (Help!) 12:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
• Request for a block on Tenmei, I want to hear a sincere apology from Tenmei, but oh well, in the disguised "apology" section, he made more personal attack as if I'm an insane and hysterical person. Look at his so-called apology.

“ If you continue to construe mockery and personal attack in everything and anything -- even an apology as clear-cut and uncontroversial as this -- then you appear ridiculous, not because of anything I have said or done, but because your actions, your own words make it hard not to believe that you arise each morning apoplectic, highly excited, ready for a fight about what you believe in. --Tenmei (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC) ”

This is so typical of how Tenmei behaves in Wikipedia. When the user defends himself, the degree of the insult is getting worse. I don't need to put up with this extremely uncivil and rude person any more. Besides, Nick Dowling who has also undergone Tenmei's same pattern of personal attacks already requested a block on Tenmei per his continued disruptions. --Caspian blue (talk) 12:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well he did apologise 'I apologize for writing "You are offensive" here. --Tenmei' and instead of accepting that apology you chastised him for using quotation marks and linking to the phrase he was apologising for. Both of which are absolutely standard. He did need to use the quotes because he was quoting himself and that's what quote marks are for and he did need to link to make it clear what he was apologising for. Yes his apology was short, personally I applaud that because he writes waaaayyy toooo much usually. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 14:55, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Theresa, I really don't see what intention you have here and the below thread. It seems pretty clear that you have something in your mind. That is not an apology, because he continues more attacks in the "apology" section. Besides, whether accepting his "so-called" apology is to be reflected by his following behaviors and my mind, not you. The insulting comment is not only one, but too many disruptive comments here and the AFD. Besides, why are you so calm at Taemyr's mentioning my past? I really don't appreciate your intervention here.--Caspian blue (talk) 15:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If you don't appreciate TK commenting, I suggest you post your next complaint to WP:Admin Noticeboard not involving Theresa Knott (or LessHeard vanU, for that matter). I certainly won't miss you. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not need to appreciate any comment addressed here. However, just for a courtesy, I thank you for your "big" help here so far.--Caspian blue (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Question: at this point, is there any substantial dispute yet to be settled, or is it really just mutual bickering dragged on and on? Can we perhaps just stop now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Content disputes are not the matter that I reported but Tenmei's behaviors at the AfD. I still don't understand why Tenmei suddenly got hostile from a discussion and did research on me. His mention about my ethnic background and Liancourt Rocks and ianfu are not related matter to the AFD. He was saved by his typical lengthy writing from the last ANI, so evaluation is not done yet.--Caspian blue (talk) 16:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Something definitely needs to be done about Tenmei's style of discussion if he is to be a constructive participant in this project. I suggested mentorship higher up in this tread. Taemyr (talk) 21:19, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Taemyr -- I did act on your suggestions. I did apologize as you expressly urged me to do; and I did post at Wikipedia talk:Adopt-a-User#Referral from context of WP:AN/I?.

Your reaction here was not anticipated -- quite the opposite. I expected approval, not disapproval. I thought that I'd at last managed to write something which would be perceived by all thread participants as helpful, on-point and concise.

I'm mystified, for example, that Fut.Perf. above evaluates my contributions to this thread as being within the ambit of anything like "bickering" .... --Tenmei (talk) 22:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I was not aware that you had posted at Adopt-a-User. Good. Sorry that I had not picked up on this earlier, I have your user page watchlisted but forgot to put this talk page on my watchlist.

Apologies are good, but your realizations that parts of your posts had an uncivil tone is far more important. While your actual apology was concise, by the time I had returned here you had produced another two pages of text, so it drowned a bit. Taemyr (talk) 22:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion to mitigate problems in future

A recently archived WP:AN/I thread included something like this sub-heading.[60] Some comments about avoiding future problems need to be incorporated in this thread. If not, the attention focused on a number of issues is wasted, and this thread becomes just another missed opportunity. --Tenmei (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. The thread is filed by indef.blocked sock, so actually any contributions by such users are generally deleted and that is the case. Besides, your own problems are still not resolved yet and you try to use it. How good attempt.--18:18, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Consider this: Taemyr identified a few specific instances in which, he explained, I should apologize; and as soon as I understood what I'd done wrong, I did act on an implicit suggestion -- I did apologize. Whether or not Caspian blue appreciated or accepted that apology is another matter entirely. Taemyr suggested that I try to locate a Mentor as a practical step towards ameliorating perceptions of impermissible "personal abuse" in the future; and I did follow-up with action by posting an inquiry at Wikipedia talk:Adopt-a-User#Referral from context of WP:AN/I?. Practical consequences were the explicit result of specific suggestions. Practical consequences developed from thoughtful suggestions.

If other constructive comments could convert this into a win/win scenario, those would be worthwhile contributions. --Tenmei (talk) 19:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I think some comments about avoiding future problems could be good. Tenmei what did you have in mind? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

For now, I only want to suggest that the thread remain open for others to make constructive suggestions along the lines Taemyr has managed to do. --Tenmei (talk) 23:06, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

This thread began with grave complaints, but the thread failed to develop those specific allegations. In such serious context, WP:TLDR would seemed like misdirection; but Guy's observations about "rhetoric" which "makes any kind of discussion impossible" was resonant and helpful. That observation would have been more constructive if it weren't for one inescapable fact -- that the impossible format of this thread required me (1) to present analysis of what I could only guess were Caspian blue's accusations, (2) to present a cogent evaluation of what I could only guess were the gravamen of Caspian blue's complaints, and (3) to present a parsed response to what I supposed were Caspian blue's claims in this thread. The imbalance was inherent, intrinsic -- not a problem I could resolve in any other manner.

Nevertheless, as the thread comes towards being archived, I don't see how a careful review of Caspian blue's initial paragraphs can be avoided.

Unsupported allegations?

Given the significant nature of the complaints which began this thread, there is no unseemly wiki-lawyering in emphasizing that Caspian blue failed even to try to fulfill any reasonable burden of proof or burden of persuasion in terms of the following specific charges:

• 1. "I have been continuously attacked by Tenmei (talk · contribs) on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseon tongsinsa and relevant talk pages."
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 2. Tenmei "started to attack my comment on LordAmeth's talk page"[61] ....
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 3. "[T]he Japanese user did some research on my contributions" ....
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 4. Tenmei "stated that his nomination is because I've been engaging in editing Comfort women" ....
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 5. "[T]he user clearly states about his WP:Ownership on his created article."
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 6. Tenmei "also uses very vicious languages against me" ....
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 7. Tenmei "drags his anti-Korean sentiment to the AFD" ....
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 8. He rather more making inexcusable ad hominem attacks regardless of the chances."[62]
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

• 9. "The page turns out to be a place for him to abuse the procedure and make personal attacks based on his strong bias against Korean editors."
  • Allegation not proven ... wrongfully presented in this venue

What was proven?

Two conclusions only are supported by this discussion thread -- neither are good for Wikipedia as a whole.

A. WP:NPA is an effective tactic which conclusively thwarts and overwhelms WP:V.

In the initial complaint, Caspian blue offered a short conclusory observation. He claimed, "AfD is going to nowhere." I don't know how to label this sentence; but I do know that the AfD discussion was not decided by consensus. Why not? Caspian blue used WP:NPA as a tool to thwart the time and work already invested in that ongoing thread, and Caspian blue has avoided addressing the substantive WP:V issues which were the subject of that thread. Seicer independently closed the discussion; and Future Perfect at Sunrise independently merged the unsourced articles.

B. Being named in an WP:AN/I thread taints an accused contributor as if with a kind of wiki-felony.

In the initial complaint, Caspian blue incorporated an odd sentence: "The user recently was recently reported for his personal attacks like this." WP:ANI#Personal abuse and disruptive behaviour by Tenmei filed by admin, Nick Dowling. The relevance of this sentence was neither explained nor expanded. Neither Caspian blue nor Nick Dowling responded to explicit questions: (1) "What anti-Korean bias is to be adduced from my participation in any other discussion threads?" and (2) "Were there other contexts or other issues you hoped to highlight in the context this specific thread is considering?" It becomes noteworthy that neither question was acknowledged or addressed. This context argues for a crucial change in the way WP:AN/I is handled in future. At best, I would not want to see any future threads giving arguable credence to the Alice-in-Wonderland logic which informs such heedlessly harmful outcomes. --Tenmei (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

What was constructive?

Taemyr wrote: "Something definitely needs to be done about Tenmei's style of discussion if he is to be a constructive participant in this project." The suggested mentorship was constructive and was well-received. --Tenmei (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Reference to past context

[post by block evading sock removed by Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC). If you wish to post here you need to get your block lifted. Take it to the arbitration committee but you don't get to edit here in the meantime]

Please note that, following reports of vandalism on WP:AIV, I have just had to temporarily block 58.94.56.254. I was unaware of this discussion - but the reported actions were sufficient. Thanks, Ian Cairns (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Please note that, following reports of vandalism on WP:AIV, I have just had to temporarily block 118.16.243.120. The actions were for identical vandalism to the above anon. Ian Cairns (talk) 21:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I did read this whatever-it-was before it was deleted; but the text was too complicated for me to understand with only a quick scan. From what I could gather, the writer was trying to say that I was on to something when I suggested above that Caspian blue's complaint is a cake baked from scratch by a knowing baker with a recipe in mind.

This becomes somewhat troubling in the odd context this thread creates. It causes me to re-evaluate what I thought was happening in the paragraphs above. --Tenmei (talk) 00:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Re-reporting User:PeterBln for continual violation of WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL.

I reported a user called User:PeterBln on August 19, because he was breaking WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL many times. I have quoted the discussion that then occured regarding him. The discussion, to me it seemed, was leaning towards a decision for a ban, possibly an indefinite one. However, the discussion went inactive on August 21, before a decision was reached. I myself was on holiday from August 22 to August 30. I would like to request that the discussion continue again, so that a decision can be made. I have quoted the inactive decision below. Thank you for reading. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 19:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

User:PeterBln has continually broken WP:NPOV, and WP:CIVIL. The evidence I would like to cite to show that the user has broken WP:NPOV continually is [63], [64] (the two pieces of evidence I have just cited are articles that are undergoing AFD discussions, and they may be deleted soon), [65] (this edit is sourced, but its language is not neutral), [66], [67]. There is more evidence, which can be examined from his contributions section, but I didn’t want to clutter this post. The evidence I would like to cite to show that the user has broken WP:CIVIL is [68], [69], [70] (please look at the section entitled “Attempts to falsify history by Allied countries”, and please not where he has accused, for example, people of insulting the memories of people who have died, and how he has threatened to remove material from the Dresden article that does not fit his view of the bombing) , [71], [72], [73], [74]. The evidence I would like to cite to show that this user has been warned many times about breaking WP:CIVIL and WP:NPOV is [75] (please look at the section entitled “Attempts to falsify history by Allied countries”) and [76]. The evidence I have cited regarding warnings also shows, imo, how I have made a real effort to help him become a good Wikipedian. I believe he will not abandon his goal of trying to re-write Wikipedia articles so that they fit his viewpoint. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 22:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

That is certainly one problematic editor. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 23:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe so too. I have tried to teach him about following WP:NPOV, and WP:CIVIL, but he doesn't seem to listen. When it seemed to me that he would not change, I believed that admin intervention was needed. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 23:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Proper WP:Diffs (as opposed to URLs) would help folks trying to sort this out. Toddst1 (talk) 23:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

User Talk:PeterBln gives a good account of several editors' attempts to resolve difficulties with PeterBln. There are also a number of formal warnings for violating WP:NPOV and WP:NPA. I'm not sure if a block is warranted yet. Stil looking... SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 23:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I will work on getting diffs up. In the meantime, I believe this evidence, when considered with his past record, suggests a block is needed: [77]. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 23:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have replaced many of the URLs with diffs. PeterBln's talk page contains lots of relevant info, so I have decided to leave the URL to that, as I would clutter up my statement with diffs if I were to use them to link to his talk page. Please note [78], where he says " I think you Allied people are appalliung, the way you try to hide your evil history. Sorry but this is disgusting", and is asking why a Wikipedian is not going to prison for denying the "British-India Holocaust" (a term which PeterBln has has coined, by which does not appear to be used by reliable sources). JEdgarFreeman (talk) 00:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that this editor has a focus on Eastern Europe and articles relating to the bombing of Dresden have been the main area of recent disruptive behavior. Moreover, they have been making highly dubious comparisons with the Holocaust and Stalinism in both articles and when discussing other editors. As such, would it be appropriate to apply the Digwuren restriction? This series of edits [79] appears to be the kind of behaviour which the Digwuren restriction is normally invoked for (eg, highly uncivil and emotionally charged posts relating to Eastern Europe). I feel that a block is justified for such uncivil behaviour and blatant POV pushing. Nick Dowling (talk) 11:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand that this issue is being dealt with, but I urge that some sort of action is taking against him soon. I am asking this because he is continuing to go against WP:NPOV, as evidenced by this edit: [80]. I am trying to revert some edits which do not fit in with Wikipedia guidelines, but they keep getting reversed by PeterBln, [81] and [82]. I will not attempt any more reverts, as I do not want to engage in an edit war. I would like to point out that [83] suggests there was an article in the British Guardian entitled "How Britain Denies its Holocausts, Why do so few people know about the atrocities of empire?", written by George Monbiot and published on December 27 2005. PeterBln cites this article, claiming that it says there was a holocaust in India, and is using it to support his edits that say the famine in India was a holocaust. I have looked, and George Monbiot only published one article that day, and its title is "The Turks haven't learned the British way of denying past atrocities", and nowhere in the article does it specifcally claim the famine in India was a "Holocaust" (please see [84]). The article says Britain was responsible for the famine, but it does not call it a "Holocaust", as PeterBln insists it does. This would seem to suggest that PeterBln is lying about sources in order to get his POV across. I tried to remove the inaccuracies in the British-India Wikipedia article regarding the Guardian article, and PeterBln proceeded to revert my removal of the inaccuracies without explanation([85] and [86]).JEdgarFreeman (talk) 22:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC) JEdgarFreeman (talk) 22:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, looks like someone beat me to writing this. See here for example. His POV pushing against the Americans/British is so phenomenal, he's actually tried to argue that the Allies were as much perpetrators in the Holocaust as the Nazis (I'm not joking). Would support a lengthy, if not, indefinite block of this user, clearly has no interest in building a balanced encyclopedia, has complete disregard for WP:NPOV in the face of numerous warnings (as demonstrated recently), is only interested in pushing his agenda. WilliamH (talk) 09:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, welcome to the fanciful world of the far right in Germany building up a history of Holocausts everywhere and dreaming in a wonderland of parallel truth. As long they do so in their futile little conventions, it is barely okay. But popular media like Wikipedia should do everything they are allowed to, to keep their waste away. Geo-Loge (talk) 19:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like to ask for more of a discussion regarding this issue. There have been a couple of recommendations for a block, but no decision has been taken. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 19:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for adding a statement in bold. I am afraid this discussion will fall into inactivity before a decision can be reached, just as the previous discussion did, and I wanted to add this statement in bold because I wanted to draw attention to it. I implore that this discussion move forward. Thank you in advance. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 19:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Media coverage of Sarah Palin article

Don’t Like Palin’s Wikipedia Story? Change It about United States vice presidential pick Sarah Palin. This is going to drive MASSIVE traffic and we need more of your eyes than ever on this page. Please add it to your watchlist via this link and help us enforce BLP and ban any vandals. Vandalism sitting for even a minute is going to be seen by 300 people. Wikipedia is the 1st result on Google for her name. Anyone who is searching for information about this unknown is going to go to US. This is make or break.
Thanks everyone! --mboverload@ 02:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Way to go Ferrylodge! Kelly ^hi! 02:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Good job Ferrylodge - you did Wikipedia a service and came off sounding well yourself. --I am not Paranoid (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 05:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed the link to watch (not unwatch) the article. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'M SORRY! My bad! =( --mboverload@ 03:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Please note: I have a Google Alert set to wikipedia palin. I am getting updates constantly. People are talking about this page on a large number of sites, specifically about Wikipedia being "whitewashed". --mboverload@ 03:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I investigated shortly after this happened. My conclusion was, "no harm done", because any hagiographic editing was quickly erase by the intense volume of edits. I am impressed that the NYT reporter wrote a very accurate article. I don't think we need to worry. Sarah Palin is already getting more than 500 edits per day. Any additional traffic from this article is not going to increase the activity by any orders of magnitude.Jehochman ^Talk 03:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I do have one note... the site is a little slower to respond. :) NonvocalScream (talk) 03:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

300 people? Is that how many people read the NYT? :-) Carcharoth (talk) 03:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

9 1/2 peoble wash I.T.B. Basil "Basil" Fawlty (talk) 05:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Just FYI (I had to scan through the article's history to find him), the user is User:Young Trigg, not YoungTrigg. -- lucasbfr ^talk 11:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Young Trigg talk page

Could some admins take a look at the talk page of Young Trigg (talk · contribs)? As mentioned above, this user was mentioned by the New York Times in regards to editing at the Sarah Palin article. I looked at that user's talk page, and frankly was horrified. There are bad-faith accusations being thrown around there, that, in my opinion, are edging into harassment and hounding. I looked at the edits the person made to Sarah Palin, and they seem good-faith enough to me. Some admin attention to that page would be greatly appreciated - I'm not sure where to start there. Kelly ^hi! 16:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK, aren't user/user talk pages that are linked to high-profile websites normally semi, or even fully-protected when things like this happen. I remember this happened last June to do with the IP/Chris Benoit case. D.M.N. (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The user would probably be best creating a new account and starting again.--Troikoalogo (talk) 16:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd support full protection. The user has retired; the page is just a drama-sink now. (On the other hand... maybe it would keep the drama-queens occupied for a while?) --Chris (talk) 16:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we have a WP:sandbox, maybe we need a WP:flamepit and WP:DRAMASTAGE to keep some people harmlessly occupied.--Troikoalogo (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The user has admitted to sockpuppetry and, far from retiring, vows to create new SPAs to continue doing so. Their COI / sock edits to one of our highest traffic articles (for the moment) has brought international attention - one could say disrepute - to Wikipedia. Looking into sockpuppetry is hardly "harassment", though that claim is often made by the puppeteers. It only makes sense to hear what they have to say before pursuing formal administrative remedies. The user should probably be subject to a checkuser, and if the abuse is serious enough or they refuse to stop, banned or indefinitely blocked. Anyone who has watched the election articles knows we have had significant sockpuppetry problems. This is a serious matter that affects the integrity of the project. If they intend a fresh start to edit, as one account, non-COI articles, that is fine. But creating more new accounts to spin 2008 presidential election articles should not be an option. Wikidemon (talk) 06:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

And what evidence is there that the editor has a conflict of interest? Is there any proof that the editor is connected with either Sarah Palin or the McCain's campaign? Because without any proof, charges that the editor has a COI simply because he or she improved the Sarah Palin article prier to the announcement is an assumption of bad faith. As for the charges of sockpuppetry, you should first look at WP:SOCK#LEGIT. There are some legitimate reasons why someone may want to create an alternative account. And given the harassment that the editor as received since, it is clearly one of them. --Farix (Talk) 13:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Support protection/archive. The discussion on the talk page has left the user talk and has become merely a forum about the candidates. .:davumaya:. 17:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I will note that this user is not blocked, so protecting their talk page would only allow them to edit without any way for someone other than a admin to contact them. (That is if they ever come back to editing). Tiptoety ^talk 17:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Emperordarius - Multiple edit warring

This user has achieved to break the three revert-rule within one day in more than one pages! I did not want to act on my own, since I am a Greek and the particular user seeks any opportunity he can find to attack Greeks. I thus though I should ask for neutral administrators to act. Here are some of his multiple 3R violations (please check his edit summaries—all the reverts occured within the 24 h time-framework):

• Byzantine empire: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Some of these edits constitute vandalism, since he deleted sourced material (for example the undisputed fact that the Greek language was official in Byzantine empire from heraclius on).
• Skanderbeg: 1, 2, 3, 4 reverts within one day (introducing the inexistant term "Byzantine Italians"!).
• Darius of Persia: See the absurdity of his reverts!

I think immediate action is needed against the aforementioned user.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

He is also uploading new maps of Illyria that have "Greeks" blurred out. They are laughably terrible. He's just a kid so he's probably harmless, but an indefinite block wouldn't hurt anyway. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I think an indefinite block would be complete overkill. I was going to block him for 24 hours for edit warring, but since he has promised to stop, I am just going to give a final warning. Stifle (talk) 08:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

His reverts in Philosophy of Greek pederasty are really childish (and again a case of vandalism). I'll agree with Stifle for now, but, if he breaks his word and starts edit-warring and vandalizing again, I feel entintled to (at least) temporarily block him.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I took a look at his recent contribs and agree that the deletion of images and content is cause for serious concern. I've placed a final, level-4 deletion warning on his Talk page. JGHowes ^talk - 00:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Block evasion by socks of proven sock master User:Nyannrunning (second - and 1/2 - posting)

I posted this many hours ago (01:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC) first posting), and no action or response was taken on it. It was then removed by bot. I returned it (04:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC) second posting) and two hours later (06:35, 1 September 2008), the bot removed it again . One of the socks of this person posted my real name and email address on a talk page, which was removed by oversight. This is a serious issue and really needs action taken on this persistent sock. Thank you.

Multiple blocks have been placed based on sock cases regarding this user, including Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Nyannrunning (2nd) and Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Nyannrunning (3rd) which have included both editing diffs and statistical work, resulting in conclusion that IPs in the 76.93.8x range are IP socks. Specific to this report are approximately identical edits to Wonderland Avenue to include and return non-relevant material related to an ancient arrest of MacKenzie Phillips, here by sock master User:Nyannrunning, here by proven sock puppet User:Evanbayh, here by one IP proven used by sock master, here and here by sock puppet User:Seth4u2nvcs. Related IP in range 76.93.8x, specifically 76.93.87.176, has returned tonight to again add same material here and again here, this time with a comment accusing me of sock puppetry. Requesting longer block on 76.93.8x based on evading ban (as well as recent more serious issues addressed by oversight). Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no such range as 76.93.8x. There is a range 76.93.80.x-76.93.87.x, or the next bigger one - 76.93.80.x-76.93.95.x; it's unclear from your post which you're requesting. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This should be taken to Checkuser ( requests for checkuser ) to verify that they're connected and in the range, and then block the appropriate range(s). The available info right now isn't evident enough to me to justify a rangeblock on a case I don't already know and understand, though another admin may find it credible on independent review... A checkuser would disambiguate the situation. Just file a RFCU. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 10:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this is that the IPs this person uses are dynamic. I have a compilation of evidence here, although it's sorted for me, and what I've already done towards it and wouldn't be meaningful as it exists. The sock has used IPs in an wider range of 76.93.74.x through 76.93.88.x. I'll post this for the bureaucrat who had dealt with the oversight problem. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The smallest range containing both any 76.93.7x.x and any 76.93.8x.x extends all the way from 76.93.64.x to 76.93.95.x; are you sure this is necessary? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Giano blocked for 24 hrs for incivility and personal attacks

In the event that this turns out to be highly controversial, I am going to be asleep for about 8 hrs, and if an administrator consensus develops here in that time period that that this was a mistake please feel free to boldly revert and just notify me on my talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 11:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

(note that this was both under general principles and under the civility parole on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC#Civility: Giano and has been logged there. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 11:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC) )

Support block. We traditionally give Giano a lot of rope, but his noisy vendetta against Stifle was becoming disruptive. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ has nothing to declare except his jeans 11:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose block. I dislike any block such as this one which is likely to have a chilling effect on legitimate criticism. The use of the word "troll" is excessive but anyone (Giano included) is free to call an "absurd block" when they see one. Under general principles this lock is a manifest overreaction. It may be justified under that civility parole, but I think it would have been wise to seek a consensus before enforcing such a controversial remedy. I see little good that can come of this block and find it rather ironic given that Giano was making a point about how administrators aren't seeing the wood for the trees - i.e. focus on uncivil comments without seeing and tackling the problematic behaviour that resulted it an editor being so angry/upset that they felt the need to express themselves in that manner. WJBscribe (talk) 12:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The more I think about this, the more the block troubles me. Are we also going to block everyone who has ever called Giano a troll? WJBscribe (talk) 12:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

way over the top - there is a difference between chronic incivility and heated criticism. Viridae^Talk 12:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose block - Sometimes people just need to suck it up. Blocks are not punitive. Jennavecia ^(Talk) 13:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose this ridiculous block and chuckle at the above comment. The extra incentive for Stifle to suck it up is that his actions were indeed idiotic and it's almost hard to discuss that particular incident without noting the fact. If Stifle had taken 30 seconds to ponder the situation, he would easily have figured out the absurdity of his actions. He did not and so we get two AN and ANI threads, two bad blocks, one editor gone. And I can see how one might use strong words to criticize both Stifle and people who defended him against all common sense. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If you take into account that G was railing at the incompetence of an administrator which was further compounded by administrative action only been taken (tho later revoked) against the user on the receiving end of said incompetence, this block begins to look very shaky indeed.--Bsnowball (talk) 13:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

As I posted on Giano's page, this is a woefully bad block and should be lifted straightaway. ^S._D.D.J.Jameson 13:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This block seems very unnecessary to me and an overreaction to Giano's comment. If we can somehow get out of the minor incivility->block->irritation->greater incivility->block spiral, we might get somewhere. This block should be reversed, and I urge Georgewilliamherbert to unblock promptly. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 13:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose and then some: Stifle was trolling. After all, "trolling" comes from the early message board confusion of "trawling" and "troll": "trolling" is "attempting to get a reaction." What Stifle was doing was pushing someone to try to get him to strike back, and, worse than that, doing so to try to get him blocked. The cringing child who taps another's head so that he will respond and get in trouble with Teacher is a model of rectitude in comparison. We do not block people for having opinions and using the proper terms. There is no magic in a word. What's worse is that this block is an essential repetition of Stifle's own tactic. It is loathsome. That is my opinion, as an administrator, as a long time Wikipedian, as a contributor, and as someone who has been here long enough to see this childishness flourish. Geogre (talk) 13:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked per the torrent of comments condemning the block for various reasons. (GWH has stated he has gone to bed) Viridae^Talk 13:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps this is moot now, but does no one else have at least a bit of a problem with Gwh blocking and then going to bed "for 8 hours"? This doesn't seem like the best practice for an administrator who is contemplating pressing the block button. In his defense, he did say that simple notification of an unblock at his page would be fine, but wouldn't it have been better to simply not block in the first place, than to block and go to bed, forcing a rather pointless discussion? ^S._D.D.J.Jameson 13:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• No, I don't see a problem there at all. GWH blocked when he knew that he wouldn't be around to review, so he explicitly went out of his way to avoid drama by inviting an overturn if somebody disagreed without reference back to him. Seems exemplary way to deal with the situation to me Mayalld (talk) 13:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

  Exemplary? I would probably disagree with that characterization, as an "exemplary" move would have been to not place a block that would certainly be controversial in the first place, but especially not right before heading off to bed. But as I said, it's probably neither here nor there, but rather a fairly decent reminder that using tools in a controversial manner right before going to bed might not be the best idea. ^S._D.D.J.Jameson 13:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, it is exactly how I think Admins ought to behave. If they are "on the scene when a decision is required, they should take that decision, rather than say "nah, I'm knocking off in half an hour", and leave it to somebody else to happen on it later. The whole issue of the fact that we ask for consultation with the blocking admin before reversing is nicely dealt with by pre-emptively assenting to being overturned without consultation. Mayalld (talk) 15:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Viridae has already unblocked, which has saved me the trouble of reducing Giano's block to ~1 minute. Use of trolling may be a little over the top, but this was not substantially a personal attack, but a valid criticism of bad behaviour. Everyone disperse and go do something productive. I hear Peter Jones (missionary) desperately needs a Good Article Review, for instance. ;) WilyD 13:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
• I hadn't seen the "going to bed" part, otherwise I would have done this myself. I fully agree with the unblock. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 13:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Just one moment before we all go home: What about Georgewilliamherbert what happens to him - some severe condemnation? sanction? - anything at all? or does he get a cash prize for getting his name on my block log? Some may feel his actions were at best unwise others may have stronger language. I feel it is just one more example of perceived incivility being used as a weapon - to prevent criticism of admins. A phenomenum completely encouraged by the Arbcom. Giano (talk) 13:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

IF you have some reason to believe he did this out of maliciousness, rather than a fairly straightforward misreading in the situation, maybe the stocks can be dusted off. Otherwise, no, there's nothing to do beyond say "Maybe read things more carefully before making blocks that will dredge up drama." WilyD 13:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Not that unreasonable a question, unfortunately, as this is not the first very questionable block that Georgewilliamherbert has made. On his own talk page is some of the commentary from his block of User:Mackan79, whom he accused of being a sock of User:Wordbomb, and then demanded that Mackan79 self-identify to the Foundation before being unblocked.[87] Perhaps an independent review of GWH's block log would be appropriate. Risker (talk) 13:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• I know this has already been resolved, but I just saw it and my jaw hit the floor. Please, anyone who hasn't already, got read the link that geogrewilliamherbert cites as blockable incivility. The charge is ridiculous. I think geogrewilliamherbert should stay away from Ginao. --Duk 15:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Actually, this matter is far from resolved. The question that needs to be answered is: Are admins who bumble and fumble around the encyclopedia misusing their tools to be tolerated? - What is most important protecting the ordinary editors from administerial incompetence and intimidation or sweeping bad actions under the carpet purely to maintain the dignity and reputation of the Administerial office. You can only chose one answer, and at the moment it seems that anything an Admin does is excusable - even one as woefully out of touch as Georgewilliamherbert appears to be, of course there is the possibility that he is not at all out of touch, but of course that would make him a troll too, wouldn't it? Giano (talk) 16:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

An admin who is about to go to bed should not block and leave a note, but should refer the matter to someone not so sleepy or a noticeboard full of people to decide whether to block or not block. There are thousands of admins; "Block & Run" should never happen. Jd2718 (talk) 17:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oh, my god, this is a horrible block. I've seen a lot of bad Giano blocks, but this takes a very big biscuit. Really this should lead to a month off the admin tools, or something like that. So much for Wikipedia:Expert retention and maintaining encyclopedicity. This is not a young ladies' finishing school, guys. "You are trolling" is harsh, yes, but acceptable commentary in a particularly contentious debate when several others said the same thing in a politer way. Moreschi (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
• I agree. This block by George is almost as ridiculous as his blocks of Krimpet and of Mackan79, but not quite. As for the actual appropriateness of the T-word I can only recommend the mailing list thread "[WikiEN-l] Troll, troll, troll" from June 2007. — CharlotteWebb 18:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Good, great response, so what are his fellow admins and the Arbs going to do about it - anything at all? Or shall we just let it all slide untill the next bad lazy block by some Admin is reported here, and yet another content editor stalks off in disgust - does anyone care out there? I'm not sure anyone does. Giano (talk) 18:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Giano, you're just going to blow this out of proportion into a massive dramafest. Or is that your intention? If his activity concerns you so, be proactive and start an RfC instead of harping on us to do something. You're part of the community too. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah well, that ignorant response is just what poor old Peter Damian got (that's what started this) and look what happened there - he buggered off, and I can't say I blame him. It is not up to me, and ordinary editor to start proceedings to protect myself, that is what Admins are supposedly for. However, one could be forgiven for not realising that these days. Criticise an admin here is always wrong or a "drama fest." Get real Admins - wise up and do what you are supposed to, if not resign. Giano (talk) 18:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm almost certain that arbcom would reject this case but there's not much more to be lost by trying. — CharlotteWebb 19:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I am completely certain they will reject it - me being harrassed by ridiculous imcompetents was exactly what they planned. Giano (talk) 19:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays! I also get criticised for uncivil behavior. May I use you as a model for personal improvement? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

At best, maybe GWH should voluntarily lay off of these civility blocks for a while. Thats three recent bad ones, plus the one on this guy that was overturned, for four pretty bad ones lately. rootology (C)(T) 19:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

@Giano: would you point out where in WP:ADMIN it says we are supposed to be "protecting" you by filing RfC's on your behalf? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Would an admin mind updating this to show the consensus here of a bad block that was undone? rootology (C)(T) 19:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

WJB has done it, though I'm not sure there is a continued need for that page to be protected. — CharlotteWebb 19:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Done, I'll unprotect the page too - I hadn't realised it was protected. WJBscribe (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I invite an RFC or Arbcom case, if anyone cares to file one. However, I have reviewed the block, the edits by Giano that led up to it, and I remain of the opinion that Giano has once again strayed beyond the boundaries of reasonable civil communications in this thread.

WP:CIVIL exists and exists for a reason. That reason is that the whole community is lessened and corroded by people being rude to each other - It quietly drives people who wish to avoid conflict and abusive behavior away. We know that, we've seen that, and that's exactly and precisely why we have community norms not to do that and a policy that says prescriptively not to do that.

When he made the last post last night that prompted the block, I went over his contributions in the whole thread, several times, and concluded that he was both making a point and had a reasonable opinion, and was expressing that in a manner which was both beyond our civility policy and norms, and significantly beyond what others in the thread were saying in terms of hostility and incivility.

Giano is without a doubt, multiply and currently Arbcom and administrator sanctioned for being the most uncivil user we have within the core community. He also makes lots of positive contributions and helps out a lot around the project. Anyone without his long positive history would have been indef'ed many times over by now - we do this every day to newcomers who clearly are just out to bother people.

Several people who commented above assumed that I disagreed with Giano in the thread in question. I was not involved in the thread, and in the course of reading it to decide if something needed to be done I came to the conclusion that Giano is probably correct in principle, that there had been administrator abuse. I did not block him to stifle his opinion or participation - I agree that there's a valid question there. I blocked him because he, yet again, was more rude than anyone else and more rude than we normally allow, and he specifically is under arbcom sanction to not be excessively rude.

WP:CIVIL means what it says, and the sanctions and findings in the Arbcom IRC case and Geogre/Wm Connelly case and previous cases before that mean what they say, too. They were put there for good reasons. I am not going to sit idly by when he walks right past those warnings and policies. And neither should you.

Giano, you need to learn to stop abusing people by posting in an uncivil manner. As I said on your talk page, it's counterproductive and corrosive to the community. I agree with you on that thread, and yet you were just making it worse.

Many of the rest of you are enabling and encouraging his negative behavior. This is horrible for the project. Stop it and look at what you're doing. If you keep knee-jerk defending Giano when he strays, it will keep going on and on and on as it has done for three years already at least. He will survive short preventive blocks when he wanders across the line. His contributions and history deserve extraordinary and cautious response - but they absolutely do not justify encouragement and enabling of the abusive behavior.

I expect more out of Giano - I and the community have the right to expect that he learn over time and moderate his behavior over time. I also expect more out of the community - take corrosive incivility seriously. In general, but in particular with long term problem cases. Push back, politely when it's mild abuse, firmly but politely when it's worse. But push back. Take this seriously. Civility is important. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of ludicrous incivility, trolls are now making death threats against me on Wikia wikis over this. [88]. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If you feel a block is so controversial that you need to announce it at WP:ANI, 'don't do it. Sysop tools are not to be used in controversial ways. Unless there are other incidents like this, I see no need for an RFC. The feedback on this thread makes the point clear. Instead of blocking for incivility, I recommend asking the user to strike, or removing any egregiously offensive content. We should try to help users who may be over zealous, not antagonize them with spiraling blocks. ArbCom evaluate whether their Civility Restrictions have succeeded or failed, and perhaps consider whether a different approach might work better. Jehochman ^Talk 20:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That's not necessarily true, Jehoch; it's always good to know who's being blocked and for what, and get some reinforcement on any block to avoid the possibility of wheel warring. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 20:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

What happened to BOLD and trying to enforce the policies in a fair and even manner? Any longstanding user or administrator block should probably be announced here, and generally are. Saying that we should not block people because it's going to be controversial is a straight path to administrator paralysis and abandonment of enforcing policy - at some point, everything can be controversial.

There was no risk of spiraling blocks. I knew perfectly well what caused the last Arbcom case over Giano, and made it pretty clear above with the first note that I wouldn't do that.

I am trying to help Giano on this. If I wasn't trying to modify his behavior in a positive manner, to reduce his incivility, I would just go straight to Arbcom and ask that they ban him. Giano has a pattern of escalating incivility in certain types of discussion when he's angry, and was already past the red line and escalating. The block was consistent with preventing him from escalating, briefly, and was accompanied by a fairly extensive request to him to reconsider the corrosive effects his incivility had on discussions.

Giano is specifically under active Arbcom sanction that incivility on his part is blockable, up to a day for five instances, up to a week for further instances. My block was not the first one issued and logged under that sanction. If you want to change the general policy on civility blocking, strike up a discussion (I disagree - we need to politely but firmly push back on incivility - but I will abide by any policy consensus). But the active Arbcom sanction in the IRC case stands here, and it's not that Giano hasn't been warned a lot about this before. The message has to get through, the behavior has to change. Arbcom specifically found that the behavior was more problematic than other users and applied a sanction that the behavior in his case was blockable. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel paralyzed, even though I have avoided making controversial blocks (at least in 2008). You can see here Jehochman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) that I hand out lots of pink slips, and virtually none of them end up on this board. Perhaps the problem isn't with Giano but with those who think that blocking a user helps them to behave more civilly (hint: it doesn't). Jehochman ^Talk 20:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Along those lines: let's accept for argument's sake that Giano was crossing some sort of threshold of incivility in his comments. The question then is how to improve the level of discourse and lessen the impact of his (and others') incivility. How many times do we need to repeat this particular experiment before we accept its results? Blocking Giano does not further the cause of a more civil Wikipedia. I can think of few concepts short of gravity and heliocentrism which are more amply supported by empirical evidence. If you view Giano's intemperance as a major impediment to this project, then brainstorm some novel approaches to handling it, but don't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results - there's a word for that. MastCell ^Talk 20:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I would rather not go there - the precedent for "repeated short blocks didn't help, what next?" is "block indefinitely", which is not something I desire to happen to Giano, despite my misgivings about his repeated uncivil behavior. I accompanied my block with a polite and firm explanation on his talk page, which he has so far not apparently listened to in the spirit with which it was meant. It might help if others contributed there, too.

Even if you think I went too far and made a mistake, I sincerely hope that nobody actually feels that he was discussing the problem on AN in a polite and constructive manner. Again - I agree with his point in the AN thread, but I feel that he was discussing in a manner which was counterproductive due to its incivility.

If you want to see this not happen in the future... Ask him to edit in a more friendly manner? And ask him again if he starts up again? If he's not listening to uninvolved admins who sanction him (because we must be incompetent, or out to get him despite agreeing with him, or something), perhaps he'll listen to those who support him? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman made a similar comment on the RFAR, regarding incivility blocks and incivility block sanctions in Arbcom cases not working, or being counterproductive. I am concerned, on reflection, that Jehochman and MastCell may have a valid point here. This case is somewhat complicated (it's Giano, not some random incivility block). However, it is probably worth looking at more carefully - Does it work? Can it work? Is this a particular case where it doesn't work, but it might work elsewhere? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I am aware of at least one other ArbComm imposed civility parole that is both in force and not working. During the last related ArbComm case, I asked twice if anyone knew of any examples that were working. While one editor's name was suggested, a review of the relevant ArbComm cases proved that this editor never had a civility parole. So far as I know, no ArbComm imposed civility parole has worked. (I haven't seen the same problems with civility/personal attacks as part of topic area discretionary sanctions.) GRBerry 03:35, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• I've filed RFAR on GWH. Share and enjoy. Moreschi (talk) 20:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
• Gonna jump in here as a non-admin but participant in the thread in question. I don't think this was a bad block by any stretch. Using the logic of "only block for prevention of disruption" is great but it paralyzes us when it comes to dealing with persistent incivility. If we feel (for argument's sake) that Giano was being uncivil and we also feel that a short block won't prevent future incivility (because either the discussion is stale or Giano will just go back to being uncivil when the block expires) then the only block that will prevent future incivility is an indefinite block. Presumably GWH felt that was disproportionate to the "offense" and so he issued a shorter one. I don't feel (personally) that we need to assume that Giano was being uncivil. It seems obvious to me. It probably seemed obvious to GWH as well. I understand that it is not obvious to others. It is likely obvious to some that giano was behaving well within guidelines. My suspicion is that most reasonable observers would look at this situation and see someone making difficult points (Giano talking about how admins get away with murder) in an indecorous manner. the first impulse (given the goals of the project), would be to protect the expression of opinion and not sanction the messenger because of the manner in which the opinion was presented. I don't think that's the right way to look at things. GWH is correct. We are an online, text based community of volunteers. The community has decided that WP:CIVIL is a critical component to Wikipedia. A controversial opinion does not and should not protect the holder from the guidelines that hold together the community. We should demand that participants in debates treat each other with respect and where they show no interest in doing so actions should be taken to prevent them from disrupting debate. GWH saw this and took action. This doesn't mean that Stifle was right or that Giano was wrong. It just means that we should all be able to go about the debate without needlessly antagonizing others. what is wrong with that? Protonk (talk) 21:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

  I agree, and this lynch mob out for the admins head is ridiculous. While troll might not get you a block the first time around, when you're on civility patrol you better not use it. Does everyone forget that Giano is on civility patrol? I've seen him behaving uncivil in this very thread where he tries to defend himself. Obviously he didn't get the message during his previous blocks and fails to continue to get the message. Why? Because there are certain users here enabling his behaviour. Several of them agreed its over the top, but then went on to say even if the comment was unnecessary and rude, he shouldn't be blocked. Yet he's on civility patrol which puts him on a shorter leash. If you can follow that logic you're a better man than I am. To address a comment on the RFAR about useful editors, any editor that violates policy and poisons the collabrative environment isn't "useful" regardless of what they add to articles. This mentality of "he made a few good edits so let him run all over the project and do whatever he feels like" is frankly pretty disgusting.--Crossmr (talk) 04:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

  "A few good edits" is rather selling Giano's contributions short, and thus your characterization of the attitude here is rather off. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

  Trying to dismiss the point on that is rather weak and ignores the issues. He was sanctioned for his behaviour and violated the sanction. Yet people step all over themselves to excuse it. There are no amount of good edits, or good work that justifies violating policy once, let alone over and over.--Crossmr (talk) 04:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

  I didn't say I was dismissing your point. I said your characterization of the situation was off. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• I think Crossmr that your view could be interpreted as dangerously over simplified, a little naive and quite uninformed. The civility sanction on me was intended to be a form of censorship, expressly to stop me highlighting matters such as this. That is certainly how many Admins have chosen to interpretate it, and the Arbcom has done nothing to dispel this. Which is why I take no notice of it. Many people feel that Admin abuse should not be ignored, a view I share. It is accepted that Sifle trolled a good content editor - who has now quit as a direct result - that is indisputable. Pointing out indisputable facts is not being uncivil - it may be unpalatable, but it is not uncivil. If editors are to be blocked for pointing out unpleasant facts then we will have an encyclopedia fit only for La La Land not the real world.Giano (talk) 07:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I have stated this in several places in several ways, but to reinterate - I had no opinion / was not informed on the underlying issue prior to reviewing your AN edits that led to the block, and in the process of that review formed the same underlying opinion that you were expressing. This was absolutely not an attempt to cover up anything or suppress dissent - I agree with people challenging authority, and I agree that the situation in question deserved criticism. This was entirely about the manner in which the criticism was expressed, and whether it broke A) community norms for behavior, and B) specific sanctions outstanding on you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• Not at all. What's dangerous is the community getting in to a habit of trying to make judgment calls about whether or not someone has done enough "good" to let the latest transgression slide. I also don't tolerate in admin abuse. But you were on a civility patrol and several agreed your comment was over the top. Being "right" doesn't make it okay, while some seem to think it does, they fail to take in to consideration what happens when you're wrong. This obviously isn't the first problem you've had or you wouldn't be on civility patrol and you wouldn't have ended up in Arbcom. You violated the sanction whether or not you think it was justified is fairly meaningless. There are no exeptions in the policies for "if you're right" or "the other guy was a jerk first, so its okay to let loose". That isn't how working in a community works.--Crossmr (talk) 07:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I won't bother to respond to Georgewilliamherbert's self-justifying comments. Crossmr, I do not do "good" I am not a monk and have no wish to be. I have merely written a few pages, as have many others. When you say "Being "right" doesn't make it okay" I'm afraid you are completely wrong - somone has to point these things out or they self-perpetuate. The world would be a very bad place if one was forbiden from pointing out what is "right." My views on the Arbcom and their machinations are well know, so do not need repeating here, but let's just say the "civility parole" was a political move, accepted by most as a political move, and as such is treated with the contempt it deserves. I don't beleive in censorship and I won't be censored from pointing out the obvious, no matter how unpallatable you and your friends may find it. Giano (talk) 08:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You've been here a lot longer than I have, so you should know that wikipedia can't "censor you". It isn't possible. Also, you are AGAIN deliberately conflating the issue of arbcom/admins/etc. with your behavior. This is what clouds the issue. It makes it hard for people who support your side (feel that admins get away with too much) to support your block. It makes it seem like GWH and other are operating for political motives. The issue of your incivility is distinct from these other issues. Beyond that, would it be possible for you to crusade politically without being uncivil? Have you ever thought that maybe treating people with something other than contempt would result in less attention? Protonk (talk) 13:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I agree 100% with Georgewilliamherbert when he said "WP:CIVIL exists and exists for a reason. That reason is that the whole community is lessened and corroded by people being rude to each other - It quietly drives people who wish to avoid conflict and abusive behavior away. We know that, we've seen that, and that's exactly and precisely why we have community norms not to do that and a policy that says prescriptively not to do that." When I first arrived here, I found that instead of some kindly guidance on how to create my first article, I was abused by Bugs and his like, and that comments like "Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays!" and harsher ones seem to be the norm on these messageboards. It certainly lessened my entheusiasm for being involved in this project - and in fact, if a kindly editor had not stepped in and helped me create my first article, that would have been it. I'm not saying there's no place for humour, but biting newcomers, as well as being incivil to people should not be the norm in what has become the largest online encyclopaedia, often the top hit on google for any subject. I know it's a bit off-topic but it needed to be said. If you want more people to contribute, you have to stop treating them like newcomers to mercilessly bait just because they don't know all the rules. Pug power (talk) 12:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Deleted article on user page

My understanding of the rules about user pages, specifically Wikipedia:User_page#Copies_of_other_pages, is that they're not designed as an indefinite space for deleted articles. User:Presumptive has a copy of an article on The murder of Joseph Didier which has been deleted three times in various forms and for various reasons [89] [90] [91]. The deletion was upheld at DRV [92]. At one point she even suggested that her user page would become a memorial as a result of its high google ranking [93]. It's been suggested twice [94] [95] that she create a sub page if she wants to continue to work on the article, though she went on wikibreak without doing anything about it. I took the initiative and removed it a day or so ago. Today Presumptive returned from her break, and restored the article with warnings attached that no one was allowed to scroll to the bottom of her page to view it. As I have no desire to edit war on another editor's user page, I'd appreciate an administrator looking into this, as there has been some troubling behavior from this user including tendentious editing on the September 11 article [96] and asking another user to give her access to an admin account [97]. AniMate 11:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that having been deleted and drv'd it is innappropriate, at the very least it should be moved to a sub-page, and deleted if no improvements are made to it over time, although it's probably better of being deleted outright. As for the "do not look down" warnings, seems to me the user is trying to be clever/funny, obviously any person anywhere ever who reads that will scroll down and look (hands up anyone who didn't)--Jac16888 (talk) 11:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I am the adopter of User:Presumptive, I adopted her when she was in some trouble on AN/I. She is somewhat eccentric and I'm sure she waits till I'm asleep to do these things lol:) I was hoping to see some improvement in her editing but there are a range of problems with this account and user, the main one seems to be a common sense bypass :) but I suspect other problems. Sticky Parkin 11:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggest that we give Sticky a few hours to counsel this user about this issue, and if no movement by tomorrow, GSD G4 Mayalld (talk) 13:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Moved to User:Presumptive/Murder of Joseph Didier. Who nobbled {{prod}} to bitch if used outside mainspace? Several people advised me to use prod for contentious userspace content as a low-drama way of dealing with it. Guy (Help!) 13:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• I must be losing my touch - someone else speedied that as G4. When was the last time someone else was more deletionist than me? Honestly, I think PROD was the right solution as it would have left it around long enough for the user to copy it offsite. Perhaps we could fork the PROD process for userspace junk that we temporarily undelete for people to copy away? It really is quite useful - undelete, move, delete the redirect, tag as a userpage and remove mainspace cats, add prod tag and walk away, nothing more to do. A week later, bingo, it's gone again. Everyone happy. Guy (Help!) 22:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• You're probably right, though she can just as easily ask an admin to give her a deleted copy via email or via a google cache as well. Thanks for taking the initiative though. AniMate 22:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• • August 2008 discussion at WT:PROD#Prodding user pages challenged the late 2006 consensus to expand prod and allow user pages to be prodded. Allowing {{prod}} to continue to be used on userpages got no strong support. GRBerry 03:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Threats to exterminate me, overdose of lead etc. on my User pages

Hi, I checked my User page and talk page today and found it had some very nasty edits made, threats, wanting me exterminated and given an overdose of lead and so on.

I have now undone the edits but they remain in the history record so I reckon right now it will be easy enough for someone to undo my undones and restore the abusive edits so it is not a satisfactory situation right now to say the least.

This is my user page and my user talk page - Peter Dow (talk)

The abusive and threatening edits have been made both by unsigned IPs interspersed with signed edits by one user called GeorgeFormby1

This is one such edit by IP of my user page to illustrate -

diff [98] IP 82.17.219.182

Helo, my name is peter dow and im a retard, i am a pathetic 47 year old nobody who has committed high treason against the Crown and should be traked down by mi5 and exteminatid.

The abusive threatening edits to my user talk page are

diff [99] IP 86.132.166.95

PETER DOW IS A MENTALLY ILL, DELOUSIONARY FRUITCAKE WHO NEEDS TO BE LOCKED UP FOR THE SAFETY OF OTHERS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.166.95 (talk) 10:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

and

diff [100] by IP 82.17.219.182

....Including, of course, the Queen and the entire Royal Family, When a government with some balls gets to power he'll get an overdose of lead-Duce Fox, Defender of the Realm and Crown 22:18, 12 August 3008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.17.219.182 (talk)

The pattern of edits on my user page done by IP 82.17.219.182 can be seen here [101] and you can see that that IP has been used for the abusive edits of my Peter Dow user page, and to edit, I presume, the culprit GeorgeFormby1's own user page. So if he thinks he is covering his tracks entirely by making unsigned edits he is mistaken.

The edits made by IP 86.132.166.95 [102] are not yet directly associated with anything else that I can see but it looks like the same guy in my opinion based on the timings of the edits - within a few days of each other.

So I need some administrator help to prevent this very malicious, abusive and threatening edits to my user page and to my user talk page.

I am quite new to Wikipedia and as a newcomer, it seems to be with Wikipedia user pages, is that, it is impossible for the user to protect his or her user pages from abusive and threatening changes - is that right? There is no way actually to take username ownership of your user page, to stop such horrible edits, is there?

So I don't know what action one can take - except initially to report the problem to the administrators. Do you ban editing from troublesome IPs? Well perhaps we can get to the solution once an administrator takes a look at the problem.

Thanks for looking at this and for helping as much as you can.

Peter Dow (talk) 12:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the edits have been oversighted (removed) from your talkpage history. Under the circumstances, the persons able to remove the edits are also likely to be looking at limiting such edits in future so I think this matter can be closed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me LessHeard vanU but the history of both my user page and user talk page seemed unchanged when I revisited those pages - no oversight removal of history edits which I could see - are we looking at the same Peter Dow (talk) pages? Peter Dow (talk) 13:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I would advise you to request semi-protection of both pages at WP:RFPP to avoid such things from happening again. It is completely allowed to request such protection :-) SoWhy 13:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey thanks SoWhy for the tip about semi-protection. I will now investigate that and take any action I can to protect my user pages. :) Peter Dow (talk) 13:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I've put level 3 warnings on both IPs talkpages. If you want to complain to the ISP the July vandalism on your talk page was from a BT IP - their complaint address is abuse@btbroadband.com and you need to send them this link http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Peter_Dow&diff=next&oldid=224544960. The August vandalism to your user page was from an NTL/Virgin IP address and their complaint line is pim@virginmedia.co.uk you'd need to send them this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3APeter_Dow&diff=231534955&oldid=216438185 ref. Hope that helps. ϢereSpielChequers 13:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Gosh. lol Thanks WereSpielChequers Peter Dow (talk) 13:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection will block any IP address from making any changes to your pages. Meanwhile, I'm wondering what an "overdose" of lead would be? That is, what would be a "normal" dose of lead? Anyway, if a registered user similarly vandalizes your pages, you could also get swift action by taking it to WP:AIV. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

"Overdose of lead" likely refers to shooting him or her with a gun (with lead bullets). It's a common expression. --ElKevbo (talk) 15:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Aha, as in "I'll fill ya full o' lead." Not good. And then there's the "exterminate" part, which means the authors probably watch too much Dr. Who. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Of the two the one I find more worrying is Special:Contributions/82.17.219.182. From the other contribs it could well be connected to user:GeorgeFormby1, who in any event has a user page that I would suggest an admin look at. I'm not necessarily saying that fans of Mussolini should be banned from Wikipedia, but threats of violence? ϢereSpielChequers 17:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't look to me like user:GeorgeFormby1 has anything to do with this. He simply removed an offensive sentence, which he may have spotted on RC patrol. Looie496 (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

You think? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was these three diffs that made me suspect that user:GeorgeFormby1 might be connected to the vandalising IP. ϢereSpielChequers 18:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation

Please see this [1]Amir (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I've speedily deleted it - not only was it unused and unlicensed, it had previously been deleted twice before due to a lack of licensing or attribution. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Kay Sieverding's user page

My user page was deleted twice and locked although I thought I had responded to the initial criticism. I am now unclear what is an acceptable user page for myself. Is this an acceptable user page ?:

Kay Sieverding completed a master's degree in city planning at MIT in 1977 under her maiden name Kay Anderson. Her master's thesis about municipal bond analysis was published by the Council on Municipal Performance. She has no criminal record. She has never been accused of perjury nor has she ever been sued for defamation or anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kay Sieverding (talk • contribs) 19:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I would take out the last two sentences just to be safe, and it should be fine. —kurykh 19:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Kay Sieverding has the explanation of why the user page was deleted. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Caspian Blue and various IP's ping-pong match

Is this kind of thing going to go on all day, or what? While it has its entertainment value, I would have thought an admin might have jumped in here at some point. [103] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

They looked to me to referee, but I can't make heads or tails of it. As far as I can work out, our anon feels that it is his personal responsibility to alert the community about some sort of terrible abuse that User:Caspian blue has committed, something about seizing ownership of the article Comfort women, and so the anon is going to keep working from his every-changing ips to fight the good fight against User:Caspian blue. Caspian appears to feel that, as a blocked user, the anon does not get to participate in the discussion anymore, and the rules are on her side on that. I've read the anon's whole comment, the one they're batting back and forth, and I still can't figure out what he's trying to say Caspian has done. What is it about that particular conflict that makes everyone involved incapable of explaining simply and clearly, in three sentences or less, what specific rule has been broken and what administrative action they are requesting? Do I look like the Referee of All Wikipedia? ARRRGH!!!! Sorry. My recent attempt to keep up with them has left me feeling drained and unhappy, and I need to drink gin and tonic until I feel better. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No clue what it's about. Anyway, it has to do with the paragraph since posted below. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Caspian Blue rang me up on my talk page for being sarcastic. While that might be technically true, I was also trying to get the attention of whatever admin might be willing to do something about an ongoing revert war within the ANI page. Usually they'll step in, but a lot of them might be on holiday today. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Request for range-blocking evading troll

• Lucyintheskywithdada (talk · contribs), *Japanese Plala ISP vandal
• Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Documentingabuse
• Wikipedia talk:Requests for checkuser/Case/Documentingabuse
• IncidentArchive453#Lucyintheskywithdada_:_racist_and_personal_attacks

I'm advised by admin, FisherQueen, to request for range-blocking Lucyintheskywithdada (talk · contribs) who has been repeatedly evading from his indef.block. The user blocked for 5 times in just one hour for his repeated block evasion. The user's indefinite block was reported by me after his harassment and the user reported a bogus file on me three days ago, still is seeking to revenge me. Could admin who knows how to range block trolls take this? Thanks.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I am here, I am quite willing to discuss. What I am doing, and have been doing, is DELIBERATELY open and identifying a pattern of race hate abuse that Caspian blue is engaged in

Folks, there is something going on a little bit deeper and more wrong than just the obvious. Start with my letter to Jimbo and have a look over what I have documented here on ANI.

I raised this issue on Jimbo's talk page. I will follow up with a better composed hard copy to the foundation. Notably, it was removed from the actual history of the page not just the page itself.

Thank you --58.94.56.254 (talk) 19:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If I were Jimbo, I would ignore that megillah, as it's a general rant with no specifics. As a semi-interested reader, I would like each of you two to provide 3 and only 3 diff's of items that you believe support your side of what the problem is. And don't send us to another rant. Give specific instances of article content that you disagree about, so the rest of us will have some earthly idea of just what y'all's problem is. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The user was well-blocked for his long time disruptions on not only Comfort women, but also other articles. You're feeding the troll.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

As usual, that is not quite honest, is it Caspian? And who was it beavering awaying to discredit ... oh, it was you.

Thank you for being at last reasonable, bugs. I will be able to establish a long term pattern of identical reversions going back months shortly and will cause no more disruption until I do so. –- 125.204.110.197 (talk) 20:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No, we don't need any more rants. Just give 3 specific diff's of article content dispute so we have something to work with. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are you enabling a block-evading vandal? This user has been indef blocked, if they want to be unblocked, there are processes. Repeated block evasion and rant posting is not done. Revert, block, ignore. Corvus cornix_talk 20:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to hear from both parties, a very succinct explanation for what this ongoing war (and WP:ANI ping-pong match) is actually about. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Then have him email you. There are rules about block evasion. Corvus cornix_talk 20:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know. And the last thing I need is for that bozo to know my e-mail address. I guess everyone else understands the issue completely and there's no problem. Meanwhile, you all can just keep reverting the continual posting of that rant. P.S. The guy said on my talk page that blocking the various IP addresses is "a waste of time". Yeh, I want to be pals with that. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Since Lucyintheskywithdada continues to post, would it be appropriate to undelete his Talk page? Corvus cornix_talk 20:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If that would put an end to the ping-pong match, then go ahead. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't. Corvus cornix_talk 20:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I've put a range-block in place. Hopefully that will lessen the disruption. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 20:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

He posted from one of his IP's on my talk page at 20:37 also. [104] But he's now on a 24-hour block. So all is calm, and I'm still curious to know what the issue is, without having to read months of research on it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it wont. Suppression and censorship in an issue such as this (race hate campaign) is counter-productive.

Only rational discussion and appreciation of the evidence will work.

In 10 words or less ... young male Korean in American running a race hate campaign against Japanese. (I am not Japanese). --118.18.198.64 (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

5 words: Where are the 3 diff's? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

So where are those 3 diff's you promised to produce? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Running a race hate campaign against Japanese would be a violation of WP:ATTACK and WP:NPOV. Three diffs that clearly show edits which advocate race hate against Japanese would be helpful. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That IP has been blocked too. I guess we'll never find out. :( Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Korean American? Writing a cheap novel again which nobody read. young male Korean in American running a race hate campaign against Japanese. -->This is your typical racist/personal attack. Shame on you.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It is possible, indeed, probable, that the statement is false. However, it does not appear to be racist. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I will do. I will be good to my word to stop now to do so and not because of any attempt at suppression of such concerns or Caspian's continued gaming. --121.118.83.195 (talk) 21:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the anon does not have any diffs that show User:Caspian blue engaging in a 'race hate campaign against Japanese,' which is helpful to know. Is WP:RBI the appropriate strategy here? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If I lived in France for a while, and then you would change from the "young male Korean living in US" to "Korean French" or "Korean living in France"? You once called "young Korean American female". Writing a novella--21:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caspian blue (talk • contribs)

Identifying someone as either 'Korean living in US' or 'Korean American' is not racist in English. Your second two sentences do not carry any meaning; whatever you meant to say by them was not communicated. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The above comment is toward the troll. The user addressed at Talk:Comfort women that I "have to have" anti-Japanese sentiment because Koreans, especially young Koreans are "such race" per his experience in Japan. So I'm reminding him his old argument again.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Please provide the diff on that rather than making us look for stuff. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 21:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Why should I? I only speak the old thing to remind the troll only, and you're feeding the troll to solve your curiosity. LOOK above the provided reports.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold here... Put up the diffs or shutup. Seriously, no more games. If there is inappropriate conduct SHOW us where. Until then I think we should ignore this person. How to make a diff --mboverload@ 21:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This person is the 13th blocked troll in 2 and half hours, I believe.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Due to their complete aversion to showing any proof with extraordinary claims against a member of the community....kill it with fire.--mboverload@ 21:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Fire doesn't work. This user is on a dynamic ip. We can only kill it with ice. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Both sides of this dispute keep dancing around the issue and won't succinctly state, in plain English, what the alleged problem is. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 21:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Simple. The troll has deep grudge at me for him being blocked indefinitely, and wants to revenge. How immature.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

A useless answer, again evading the question. So we're done here. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I tried to help. I reverted that IP character several times. I asked for information so I could better understand the problem, and he won't give any. It's plain to see that he doesn't want help. He just wants to complain. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That's okay; I stopped caring. If it was important, someone who can explain it succinctly would also have noticed and reported it. There are a lot of people working on comfort women. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

User:68.110.238.138

68.110.238.138 (talk · contribs), over the last week, has been surreptitiously changing statistics in a wide variety of articles to boost the standing of Pakistan in whatever statistical table they've been vandalizing and in some cases, to deprecate the standing of India. I've issued a final warning for vandalism, but it's important to get more eyes on this ID's edits. Corvus cornix_talk 19:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This person continues to vandalize as I type, and my request at AIV has been ignored. Somebody, please? Corvus cornix_talk 20:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

User(s) blocked: 1 month (talk · contribs). Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 20:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

BLP noticeboard

An editor named user:Angie186 has been altering text on the BLP noticeboard instead of adding to it. I put a message on her talk page saying this is improper, but somebody should probably roll back the changes (I can't). Looie496 (talk) 21:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Done but you could have so easily done this yourself! You go to the history page, click on the last good revision, click edit, click save. Done! Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

List of fascist movements by country A-F

The editor or editors from this incident have continued reverting against consensus on the same page, now on multiple IPs. Same pattern: relentless, unresponsive, SPAs. --Killing Vector (talk) 22:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Final-warned and watchlisted- I'll block the next time he reverts, unless some other admin beats me to it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Advertiser

User:Anthonator has promoted in all these areas:

• User:Anthonator
• Image:M edccb65c9b855f1f8b9eb49b8a4748aa.jpg
• Image:Designall.jpg
• Wikipedia:Requested articles Schuym1 (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Diffs plz --mboverload@ 22:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Diffs:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Anthonator&oldid=235655563
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_articles&oldid=235655052
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:M_edccb65c9b855f1f8b9eb49b8a4748aa.jpg&oldid=235654241
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:M_edccb65c9b855f1f8b9eb49b8a4748aa.jpg&oldid=235656151
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:M_edccb65c9b855f1f8b9eb49b8a4748aa.jpg&oldid=235656260
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Designall.jpg&oldid=235656456 Schuym1 (talk) 23:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a weird one alright... Thanks for the diffs! --mboverload@ 23:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. That user has had a history of vandalism, and this makes it clear he doesn't intend to constructively edit. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 00:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

User:HughTheA4AndFriends

Resolved

 – Article deleted. User stopped editing. Nothing more to see here - filing party should've only brought this here if it continued, per the WQA. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

HughTheA4AndFriends (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has an obvious conflict of interest with Hugh The A4 and friends (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (already reported to WP:COIN), made an all-caps blanket threat to the entire community at his (hint: WP:OWN) article's AfD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hugh The A4 and friends), saying "HUGH THE A4 AND FRIENDS IS NOT A HOAX OR COPYING THOMAS THE TANK ENGINE! IF YOU DELETE THE PAGE ALL PAGES WILL BE PUT UP FOR DELETION BY ME!" The same was also posted on his talk page. He has also proceeded to vandalize a userpage (see history). In my view, he clearly intends on continuing to be uncivil and to vandalize/disrupt Wikipedia.

I took this issue to WP:WQA, where they told me to come here. It has also been suggested at WP:WQA that the user might be a sockpuppet. MuZemike (talk) 00:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• <joak class="train-wonk">Can we be a bit more pacific here?</joak> Guy (Help!) 11:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

One fairuse image = 50+(+?) articles using said image?

Resolved

 – Excess FU tags removed, removed from all but the one article. Wizardman 13:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Image:TBN-Crest_Blockletters.jpg seems to be used by 50+ (I lost count at 50 before giving up, but i'm sure it's more) articles on Wikipedia, mostly used on broadcast stations operated by TBN. My understanding of the rules states that this type of useage for fairuse images is frowned upon. Is the useage in this many articles justified, or did I find a potential lawsuit trap by accident?--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 01:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Jesus F. Christ, proceed directly to IFD and do not pass Go. — CharlotteWebb 01:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey, watch it - That's Jesus H. Christ, to you. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? It's a corporate logo, being used on articles about broacast stations the corporation owns. Ed Fitzgerald "unreachable by rational discourse"^{(t / c)} 02:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Logos can only be used for the company is represents; the stations that it owns may fall within that company, but they do not qualify to use that logo (the only logo they may use is their station logo/callsign). Also, IFD isn't appropriate as there is at least one true fair use image, but they does need to be a mighty purge. --MASEM 02:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I have apprasied WP:TVS on this matter as this is their area of expertise. The problem with this is that TBN stations do not have individual logos; they all universally use the TBN shield as their station logo with their call letters and city of license in boring ol' Helevetica during station identifications. Nate • (chatter) 03:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

TBN HQ in NYC is about 1/2 mile from my apartment -- shouldd I run over there tomorrow and ask for official permission to use the logo? Ed Fitzgerald "unreachable by rational discourse"^{(t / c)} 03:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Quite honestly, that's probably the simplest solution; the alternative is no images at all, as Nate indicates. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 03:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Guys, I think we are missing something. First off, the image in question is a piece of non-free content, more specifically a logo of a company. I would find it very far-fetched if a company would allow the use of their logo on Wikipedia, which means they would be giving up their rights and allow anyone to use the logo for basically any reason. They aren't going to go for it.

Secondly, we need to remember the policy that governs non-free content, WP:NFCC. Specifically, WP:NFCC#8 which states: "Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic." We need to ask ourselves how the logo of a parent company placed on a bunch articles on all the companies stations significantly increases the readers understanding of the topic. The answer is of course, that it doesn't. Thus, all of the fair-use rationales except for the article Trinity Broadcasting Network fail our policies, and should be immediately removed. This isn't even a borderline case, this is very blatantly against the law. If someone could code a script that can quickly remove the photos, that would be great. Otherwise, the job will have to be done by hand. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 03:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This is certainly not "against the law". It's what the stations themselves use as their logo. Please revert your edits and avoid copyright paranoia. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Most of the pages you have removed the logo from are TBN owned and operated affiliates, the others carry the network 24/7. I see zero problem with this. But I do see Gonzo_fan2007 "jumping the gun" by removing the logo from pages before this discussion has ended. Firsfron is right, having the logos there isn't against the law (by any means) and you should revert your edits, please. - NeutralHomer • Talk 04:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No, but it is against the Foundation's use of non-free images, which are stricter than fair use allows. Logos are fine for the company they represent, but even if the individual stations are fully owned by TBS, they are a separate entity; if their station logo includes the TBS logo, that's one thing, but if they have no logo at all, then there is no picture to show per WP:NFCC. This is a long-standing practice with logos. --MASEM 04:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 04:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

People this is a Foundation Issue. The use of the images specifically violates WP:NFCC#8. Someone please explain to me how the use of this image meets WP:NFCC#8 and I will gladly stop what I am doing. Also, I am admin of this site, and am obligated to enforce policy. I am not required to wait to enforce policy, nor do I need consensus to enforce policy. I am stopping now because there is opposition (ignorant opposition, but opposition at that). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 04:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Significance": It is the logo of an international television network. A network that owns stations throughout the United States and cable networks throughout the world. It's logo is one that would be difficult to explain in words. I think that is good enough.

I may be overstepping a line here, but saying opposition is "ignorant" isn't very polite. - NeutralHomer • Talk 04:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, I used "ignorant" as meaning "lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact." Meant no offense by it. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 04:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine to demonstrate significance for the logo's use on the TBS page and thus why this isn't a IFD issue but more image review. However, the use of the logo on any of the affiliates is where the significance argument breaks down, because the fact the station may lack a logo doesn't mean the reader's understanding is improved about the station itself by having the controlling company's logo there. It's the same reason we don't paste logos of vendors of products on the product pages (barring any depiction of the product itself). Logos are only significant on the single page of the company that the logo is for, nowhere else with very very very few exceptions (so few I cannot recall any, but needless to say you need a very good rationale to keep it there). --MASEM 04:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Like I said a moment ago on Gonzo's talk page "TBN stations don't have individual logos like NBC, CBS, ABC, etc stations. They have just the one. So, that technically is that station's logo along with the logo of the network. It is rare for a TBN station to have a logo that isn't the official one." - NeutralHomer • Talk 04:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If TBN stations don't have individual logos, then they don't need identifying images because no such image exists. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The logo of individual TBN affiliates is the national TBN logo. WHRE uses the TBN logo (owned by a Virginia based company) not with a "21" (it's channel number), but just the logo. That's it's station logo. - NeutralHomer • Talk 05:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The reason individual station articles have logo images is not a "one logo per article" quota, but because each station has their own brand, and we're illustrating that brand. In the case of TBN, TBN has one single unified brand, so we deal with that in the one article on that brand. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Newbie admins, heh. The use of the same image on multiple articles is certainly not prohibited, and in fact it actually reduces the amount of non-free content (instead of having 50 different logos, you have one). Finally, there was a misstatement above (by Masem): it's not that the stations have no logo, it's that they use the TBN logo on-air. Finally, the "ignorant opposition" comment is a personal attack which really shouldn't be used by a fellow administrator. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Using ignorant in its precise sense is a personal attack, but calling another admin with legitimate concerns a newbie isn't? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

AMIB, the number of good-faith users driven off the project by you has been huge. I say that as a person with respect for you as an editor, but your demands last year for "one FU image per article" last year upset many good editors, some of whom will not ever come back after trying to work with you on the logo situation on WP:TVS. I was hoping you had calmed down a bit since then and that you would be willing to look at the issue from a different perspective (or at least not make demands that aren't actually even in the policy, like the "one FU image per article" stuff you demanded). Calling another admin a "newbie" when he voices legitimate concerns isn't what I did. Calling a new admin a newbie when he says that the editing being done is "against the law" (his exact words) and actually goes and removes the logos in a mass semi-automated purge while calling the "opposition ignorant" is calling a spade a spade. Seven months isn't a long time, to my mind, and certainly calling "opposition" editors (even that term is inflammatory) "ignorant" only inflames the situation further. I didn't say much last year when you tried to enforce your "one FU image per article" interpretation of the policy, but now the number of FU images on TVS articles is dropping to zero, as some editors plainly intended from the beginning. English Wikipedia still supports non-free image use within the policy; there was a Fair Use Rationale provided for each instance used in an article (diff), the image was sourced, and actually reduced the number of Fair Use images from 50 down to just one. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Not sure how any alleged history of mine or a misrepresentation of a view I held (and discarded) months ago has anything to do with you making personal attacks while warning people for supposed personal attacks they've already apologized for. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't allege what you said: you did say it. And calling someone a newbie isn't a personal attack. Calling someone ignorant is. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, not seeing the apology or retraction or explanation for personal attacks other than "Well, I was right to make them" or "They weren't personal attacks." My good-faith conduct months ago is not germane. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok Firs, first off, I apologized above for the misunderstanding, I use "ignorant" as "not understanding the facts." I meant nothing by it, so get over that. Secondly, been an admin for 7 months, not a newbie. Lastly, you still have not explained how this meets our WP:NFCC, specifically #8. Anyway, I am tired and off to bed. Have a good night guys. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 05:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm correct that the stations have no logo. If they use the TBS logo on air, it is using TBS's logo via their affliation with the parent company, not because the station owns the logo - again, they have no logo to speak of. (A logo is not a requirement of any company, and, extending to WP, is not a requirement for a company's infobox, but is allowable should one exist). --MASEM 05:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Fully agree with Gonzo here, he's right, it's a blanket corporate logo that adds nothing to the individual page. If there's no individual logo, there shouldn't be an image. What is to be gained by having the logo of the parent company on every page? It would be like using the PepsiCo logo for Doritos. Dayewalker (talk) 05:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If the TBN affiliates used the Pepsi logo on the air as their individual station logo, I would argue for that. But individual TBN affiliates use the national TBN logo as their station's logo (whether they are owned by TBN or not). - NeutralHomer • Talk 05:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Only if Doritos actually uses the PepsiCo logo. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, man. Here we go: we tell them it's not that the stations don't have a logo, it's that they do have a logo: they use one every day, on-air, to identify their station as a TBN affiliate. It's the TBN logo, used on most (but not all) TBN stations. And yet, over and over they repeat the same thing: "well, then, they don't have a logo". Missing the point entirely. The situation is analogous to Wikimedia and Meta-Wiki: they use the same logo. Look at both of the pages. They're run by the same company, and use the same logo. There are other Wikimedia pages which have a different logo, but that doesn't mean that the pages which have the same logo as Wikimedia "have no logo": they clearly have a logo which is the same as that of the Wikimedia Foundation, and they display it prominently on the project pages. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to dispense with the superior attitude.

There's only one brand here in the case of TBN, so we deal with it on the article on that brand as a whole, instead of putting it in every article that uses that one unified brand. Your example is poor: Meta-wiki uses the Wikimedia logo because it is Wikimedia's coordination/policy/discussion wiki, a project intimately linked with Wikimedia as a whole, and thus lacking its own brand. It does not use its own logo which happens to also be Wikimedia's logo, it uses Wikimedia's logo.- A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

- Facepalm. Let me try this a different way, because it seems only Firsfron is getting it at the moment. WHRE, a TBN affiliate, uses the official TBN logo as the logo for their station. Most, if not all, TBN affiliates use the national TBN logo as their individual station's logo. It's both...local and national. There is no "unified brand". - NeutralHomer • Talk 05:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Every station uses the same branding" = "These stations do not have individual branding." That's what individual means. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In any case, all the articles we're dealing with are almost meaningless sub-stubs anyway. Most of them should be merged into a single extended-list article. Why does a sub-stub need a logo image at all? No image can pass NFCC#8 (contributes to understanding the article) if there's no content in the article in need of understanding. Plus, of course, all of these articles lack fair use rationales, formally speaking. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No, the articles each had a Fair Use Rationale here. The rationales were mass-purged tonight. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Regardless if all of the stations are broadcasting the content, we can easily explain using words that these stations, under their call signs, are broadcasting TBN content. This would easily remove any reason why we need to use this one image in 50+ articles. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

But we aren't talking about the content, we are talking about the images (the TBN logo). Fut.Perf., I wouldn't call all of the TBN affiliate articles "meaningless" or "sub-stubs". Some have large history sections, some have been affiliated with other networks before TBN, so they aren't all meaningless and certainly don't need to be all merged into one extended list. - NeutralHomer • Talk 06:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Could be, for some (not any I've seen). But even so, even for logos, NFCC#8 goes together with NFCC#1. Replaceability, which includes replaceability with text. Each of these infobox usages can easily be replaced with the text "The station uses the logo of its parent company TBN as its own channel logo", or some such. Since we have have the logo in the parent article, that's perfectly sufficient. By the way, "we're talking about the image, not the content" makes no sense. When judging NFCC, you always first and foremost judge the article content, it's only the article content that makes an image legitimate. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

One could say that very same thing for any number of other affiliate stations like "the station uses the logo of it's parent company, FOX Television, as part of it's own channel logo"...and wipe out all the FOX logos.

But writing a 15 to 20 word sentence about a logo, that one could just put on the page (and was already there to begin with) just seems kinda silly.

Also, I don't think an article's content should decide whether or not to add a logo. If so, I have about 200+ articles that don't need logos. - NeutralHomer • Talk 06:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Then remove them. Yes, they don't need them. The routine nature of logo inclusion has apparently led many people to believe logos are somehow exempt from normal NFCC standards. They are not. Of course an article's content should decide whether it can support a non-free image. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"As part of" is different from "consists the entirety of." The former means there's a different logo based on the network's, the latter means the logo is just the network's and can be covered in the network's article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

@Fut.Perf.: I have seen no rule that says an article has to have "such and such" amount of information before it can "support" a logo. If there is one, I would recommend a change. There are hundreds of pages that have logos on them (or pictures) that have a small amount of information.

@A Man In Black: Do what now? Can you explain what you wrote there for people who haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about, please? - NeutralHomer • Talk 06:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If the article subject doesn't have its own logo that identifies the subject, the article doesn't need a logo to identify the subject. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

But if the logo listed is the station's logo (which happens to also be the networks logo) then, yes, it does need to be there. Remember, TBN affiliates use the national TBN logo as the logo for their individual stations. - NeutralHomer • Talk 06:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not the station's logo, it's the network's logo. The station uses it to identify itself as part of the network. The stations have no individual logos. You said the last yourself. No individual logos for the station means no individual logos for the station articles. We don't add the Apple logo to every Apple product article even though the Apple logo is present on every Apple product, we don't add the Sony logo to every Sony product article even though the Sony logo is present on every Sony product, we don't add the TBN logo to every TBN station article even though the every TBN station uses the TBN logo. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Need to be there"? Since when is it a law of nature that every company article must have a logo image? If it can be replaced – and I showed you how it can – it must be replaced. Find it silly or not. NFCC#1, period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

@AMIB: No, I said the stations do not have numbers (channel numbers) on their logos. They use the TBN logo as their own individual station's logo (I think I have typed that about 20 times now)....that logo is the TBN National logo.

I wouldn't doubt that the Apple and Sony logos are probably on those pages somewhere, but that isn't what we are talking about. WHRE (a TBN affiliate) uses the national TBN logo as the logo for WHRE. There isn't a [TBN Logo] 21 (WHRE's channel number), they use the national logo as their logo.

@Fut.Perf.: Facepalm again. We aren't talking about a company article, we are talking about an affiliate article. Also, when did it become a "law of nature" that images weren't allowed? - NeutralHomer • Talk 06:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If that is the case, then remove the images from the affiliate articles. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

How did you get that from what I said? - NeutralHomer • Talk 06:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I am tired of having people trying to turn this discussion about an image to some debate/education clusterfuck on what is a brand, a station, affiliate, whatever. So, I decided to cut the crap and said we should remove the images from all articles about the affiliates. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I gotta agree with ya on the "clusterfuck" point, cause this has certainly turned into one. I personally think, with what Fut.Perf. has said, that all logos on all stations (TBN, FOX, ABC, whatever) should go. If you are going to do it on one network, might as well do it on all of 'em. - NeutralHomer • Talk 06:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I prefer dealing with one image at a time. I am personally not a big fan of logos on articles of these stations, but just using one image for over 50 articles and the image is copyrighted, something has to give. I maybe can only see this image at, maybe, 2 places (the article on the station and the mass repeaters in Tampa). It's getting late here, but I still think the image should be removed from the articles on the affiliates. Until then, keep the FUR's there. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no policy which states that an image can only be used once or twice. In fact, Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria #10c states that a Fair Use Rationale must be provided for "each article (a link to the articles is recommended as well) in which fair use is claimed for the item," indicating that the opposite is true. Using the same image actually reduces the number of Fair Use images on Wikipedia: the articles link to the same image instead of 50 different images. And this image had a FU Rationale for each instance used in an article, until it was removed tonight. NFCC policy clearly indicates that Fair Use images are to be kept to a minimum; one image is certainly a minimum, despite its use in multiple articles, specifically allowed in the policy. NFCC #8 states "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic." The logo is used to identify the station as a TBN affiliate or owned-and-operated station. "Significant" here is particularly bad wording (because it's led to some significant edit wars between AMIB and various WP:TVS editors over the past year due to differences in interpretation of the word "significant"): it's too easily gamed; anyone can claim "significant!" or "not significant!"). Readers understand the affiliation better with the logo, and it's a logo the stations themselves use: it's not as if the stations use no logo when broadcasting: they definitely use a logo: it's this one. This image complied to NFCC 1-10 until tonight; now with the FURationales removed, it will be far easier to claim that the use is non-compliant, and the removal can continue unabated. Firsfron of Ronchester 07:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think it is going to be done whether there is consensus for it or not. I just hope we aren't setting a precedent for other images. - NeutralHomer • Talk 07:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There's a proper place to discuss this which is Wikipedia:Non-free content review. There is obviously a difference of evaluation, and this needs to be resolved through consensus, not unilateral action. Ty 07:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wish I could say consensus was trying to be reached, but as it stands Gonzo_fan2007 and Fut.Perf. have pretty much taken upon themselves (Gonzo stopping when there was opposition to his deletions) to remove the logo from all pages except the main Trinity Broadcasting Network page and A Man In Black has removed the fair-use rationales that remain on the logo's page as "false rationales" (which I don't quite understand).

So, I don't think this will be moved to Wikipedia:Non-free content review, because most of the images have been deleted already, so there wouldn't be much to talk about. Consensus wasn't reached here (or even tried for), I doubt it would be reached (or even tried for) there either. - NeutralHomer • Talk 07:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This is quite typical with image deletionists - ignore consensus debates and act in a pre-emptory manner to delete images, creating a "fact on the ground" so that the debate becomes meaningless, and the community's prerogative to create consensus is usurped. This really has to stop, it's undermining the very basis of Wikipedia to have administrators act in this manner. Ed Fitzgerald "unreachable by rational discourse"^{(t / c)} 08:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Quite.[105] Ty 08:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know about the RFC on FuturePerfect, but yes, I agree. I'll also note that the editor who uploaded the image that we are currently discussing left Wikipedia in 2007 due to AMIB's overly-rigid "enforcement" of NFCC; this wasn't the only editor who left due to AMIB's personal interpretation of the policy (which was "only one FU image per article"). This interpretation is not part of the actual policy. Firsfron of Ronchester 08:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)That sounds like a couple people I know. Plus, it sets a dangerous precedent...."well, so-and-so did it, then that means I can." Bad idea!

With Fut.Perf. saying above, essentially, that a page didn't need a logo and also saying that some pages needed a certain amount of information first before a logo could be added (he didn't back up what any of this with any links to rules stating such), I am waiting for the precedent he just set to be used to remove pretty much all logos from all TV and Radio Station pages. - NeutralHomer • Talk 08:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Gonzo_fan2007 and Fut.Perf for doing the legwork on this. The blatant misuse of fair use was shockingly evident, and it's good to see some "newbie" administrators take this on... seicer | talk | contribs 11:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You are thanking them for completely bypassing this discussion, as Ed put it above "usurping" consensus (and not even bothering to get any period), essentially making the entire consensus process pointless, and creating dangerous precedent in the process? Not to mention breaking several rules to do so and completely ignoring the fact that, as Firs put it, "There's no policy which states that an image can only be used once or twice."

You are thanking them for that? Come on! - NeutralHomer • Talk 12:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is not needed when you are dealing with blatant and gross violations of fair use and guidelines, in which the logo can only be used on the Trinity Broadcasting Network and on no other derivative. I don't see how coping with policy can be so difficult to understand. seicer | talk | contribs 13:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Coping with fair use policy is difficult for many, many Wikipedia editors; either they don't understand it, or they believe it can be ignored. Black Kite 14:49, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The handling of non-free media is one of the very few areas where consensus can be trumped, in this case by the Foundation's mandate on reducing non-free image use. Now, it is true there is absolutely no rule that says how many times an image can be used, only that it needs a FUR for each use it has. And while the TBS logo has/had a FUR for each use of the image, having a FUR does not automatically make the use valid; the image has to meet the other NFCC criteria on the page it is being used at; based on pass precedent and WP:LOGO, the logo, save for very strict exceptions, cannot be used on any other page besides the main corporate entity it represents. --MASEM 13:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Neither NFCC or WP:LOGO say anything about a logo only being used on the main corporate entity the logo represents. The logo itself is being broadcast by the individual stations into people's homes; it's the logo they use. Firsfron of Ronchester 13:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)You can't say there is no rule on how many times an image can be used (as long as it has an F-UR) and then say that image has to pass some criteria and then it might not be valid. You can't have it both ways.

The "rule" that limits the number of times the image can be used is WP:NFCC#8 - the significance of the image. There is a practical limit to the number of times a non-free image can be used while still remaining significant. It's not a hard-set number because it will vary for each image, which is why there is effectively no rule on how many times a non-free image can be used, it just has to meet NFCC#8. For example, there's probably a good hundred+ uses of The Simpsons on articles outside the discussion of the show and related elements, maybe as the topic was mentioned on the show or the like. It is not appropriate to reuse a picture of the Simpsons each of those 100+ times because there is likely no significance that the reader will gain by including that picture; some may be appropriate (a characture of an actor, for instance) but not all of them. That's all that that means: there is no limit on the number of uses as long as each use meets NFCC#8. --MASEM 14:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

What is it saying to plain ol' editors when the admin can "trump" consensus (no one even tried to get consensus) and make whatever changes he or she sees fit. - NeutralHomer • Talk 13:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I've got to agree with what has been said already, my specialty is logo FURs and I've probably handled nearly 6,000 of them, and I agree that in this case, the logo is definitely being overused. The main station should keep the logo and maybe if there is something like a corporate article or a large list it could be debated, but having it reused 50 times is far far too much. MBisanz ^talk 13:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

So, we are just going to allow an AN/I discussion to be bypassed, consensus to be usurped, the entire process to be made pointless, dangerous precedent set, rules broken, others ignored (blantantly it appears) and those editors thanked for doing so.....and then call this whole thing "resolved"? - NeutralHomer • Talk 13:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

When you are dealing with issues of copyright and gross fair use violations, yes. In addition, I don't see "consensus" towards slapping the logo on 50 articles -- I just see two or three editors spieling of abuse and misrepresentations of policy and guidelines. seicer | talk | contribs 14:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, at this point, with you "spieling" accusations of editors being abusive and misrepresentating "policy and guidelines" (not even bothering to assume good faith there) and being that the damage is done and the discussion is "resolved", I am going to go back to the radio and TV station pages. - NeutralHomer • Talk 14:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Most of TBN's US TV stations are owned outright by TBN; they're not "affiliates".[106] TBN had problems with the FCC for owning too many stations, but those seem to have been resolved. They own at least 23 full-power stations outright. So the TBN logo can properly used for all the directly owned stations. There's a question as to whether the low-power stations which are just repeaters are notable, but that's a separate issue. --John Nagle (talk) 15:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It most certainly does impair understanding of the topic for individual stations in this network to not have logos on their articles. While there may be no rule requiring a television station's article to have a logo in its infobox, it's certainly expected enough that any station that doesn't have one will cause the user to wonder why. How else is Wikipedia supposed to actually convey "this network's stations all use the same branding and logo without local variation"? Simply not having a logo on the station articles at all doesn't convey that — what it actually communicates, rightly or wrongly, is "Wikipedia is either too lazy or too biased against religious television stations to put in any effort to upload logos which show how the stations are branded", not "this station simply uses a non-localized version of the national network logo".

And there simply isn't any rule against using fair use logos in as many articles as appropriate — the rule about derivatives applies to templates, tangentially-relevant articles like 2006 United States broadcast TV realignment, and other such cases where the logo is clearly being used for a purely decorative purpose, not to cases where it's being used for the exact same purpose as any other television station's logo. It would violate WP:NFCC to use the logo on a network affiliates template, certainly. It would violate NFCC if the logo were being placed on Category:Trinity Broadcasting network affiliates. It would violate NFCC if the logo were being added as a secondary thumbnail to provide a visual identification of "the network this station is affiliated with" in addition to distinct station logos in the infobox. But as long as this logo is the only brand identity these stations use, and as such is their primary visual identification, using it for that purpose on as many articles as necessary most certainly does not violate NFCC — and not using it communicates something very different from the intention. Bearcat (talk) 16:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"the rule about derivates applies to .... cases where the logo is clearly being used for a purely decorative purpose, not to cases where it's being used for the exact same purpose as any other television station's logo..." - the exact same purpose? Ah, you mean purely decorative, then? Black Kite 17:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Er, no. Fundamental visual identification of the topic in the infobox ain't purely decorative. Bearcat (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't be so literal. "Decorative" = "image use I don't agree with" in deletionist lingo. Ed Fitzgerald "unreachable by rational discourse"^{(t / c)} 17:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to revert

There is obviously disagreement with the unilateral actions of AMiB and FPaS. I would suggest that per WP:BRD, all articles be reverted back to the status quo ante and further discussion happen on the appropriate pages. --Dragon695 (talk) 19:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

That would seem to be a reasonable course of action, allowing a consensus to be formed before further action is taken. After all, there's no particular rush here. Ed Fitzgerald "unreachable by rational discourse"^{(t / c)} 19:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Uh, no. We're not revert-warring over your misunderstood characterizations of policy and guidelines, and no consensus is needed to enforce copyright policies -- especially when it was this serious of a violation. Continued misuse of the tags led to the images speedy removal from 50 pages that went beyond the scope of NFCC. Since you openly asked editors to revert despite policy, and despite work that has been done to abide by policy, it has been protected for the interim. Don't keep pushing the issue by asking others to edit war. seicer | talk | contribs 19:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion Seeing that some have argued that the useage of a non-free image is begin used for "insignificant" repeater stations, howabout we just combine the other non-24 "powerful" stations into one article or list like List of TBN repeater stations? I'm willing to suggest that many of the low-power stations doesn't meet the criteria set forth in Wikipedia:Notability and any notable events can be listed in a broadcast history of sorts. That way, you have an image that isn't being "violated" over a wide derth of articles.--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 19:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

DYK hoax averted

Thanks to the diligence of Cbl62, a DYK nomination of Sioux Falls Uprising of 1923 revealed that the article is almost certainly a hoax. I have thanked Cbl62 and the article has been "prodded", but what should be done with the article author (Sherurcij (talk · contribs)) and/or nominator (Minnehaha Mouse (talk · contribs)? The nominator may perhaps be a sockpuppet - very few edits, all in one day, including the correctly done nom. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I confess I am guilty; as explained on the talk page I rely on the old "omg it was a social experiment!" defense, as I'd been asked how likely it was that false information could be propagated through Wiki. I congratulated both editors (I think User:NE2 deserves as much credit as Cbl) who spotted the hoax, and have put a SpeedyDelete template on the article itself. Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 01:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks for admitting this - what do you know about the nominator - is this your sockpuppet? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are both sharp cookies but there's one thing I don't understand. What was the goal of your "experiment"? — CharlotteWebb 01:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In the past 18 months, DYK has gone from 4-5 nominations a day, to 20-25 nominations a day, and has gone from being updated daily, to being updated every few hours with new articles. I've been a contributor to DYK since March 2006, and was involved in a discussion as previously mentioned, over whether the "flooding" of DYK meant reduced standards, and consequently reduced reliability. I'm not going to pretend it was the most mature thing I've ever done, but it wasn't exactly mindless vandalism and fact-changing either (the kind of vandalism that always gives me concern, when somebody slyly changes the year Xerxes died or something arcane, which can go unnoticed for months or even years). Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 02:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Please answer my question - what is your relationship with the nominator? Is it a sockpuppet account? I am willing to assume good faith for now - my suggestion is that you make up for the time and effort your hoax has caused by checking suggested 25 hooks at DYK. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If you're assuming good faith, I'm willing to go on that ;) As for your suggestion, I agree, that does sound like fair punishment -- I'll promise you 25 DYK checks this week :) Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 03:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, no. Why would anyone trust you to do a "check" on anything, since you've already inserted a hoax article with false references into the encyclopedia? I hope they have better sense at DYK. I suppose we'll see. - Nunh-huh 03:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• I find this to be ignorant. If you have time to be making jokes at everyones expense, Sherurcij, you have time to be making yourself of use to the project as well. HalfShadow 02:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• • That's your right, however if you view my contributions you'll see I actually put in seven hours of use to the project every weekday, which often involves meeting with, telephoning and writing to the subjects of articles, the Department of Defence, Canadian Members of Parliament and the families of alleged terrorists. I do "more than my share" of serious work to improve the project, but there are some questions that can't be answered without an experiment. "Has DYK checking fallen due to the extreme flooding over the last year?" is one of them. Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 03:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like you're doing several kinds of original research, which isn't appropriate, and now—worse—it's original research by someone whose word can't be trusted. - Nunh-huh 03:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Sounds like"? You are assuming bad faith. All of what he has said is really quite easily to correlate with good editing process.

For one thing, he does write good original research (on Wikinews), and I know that he talks to lots of people help secure text and images to be released into the public domain or released under free content licenses. I'm not sure what else he might be talk these people about; I am guessing it is for good reasons. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 12:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of cataloging, this was already deleted once in October 2007 under the title of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pumpkin riots of 1923 as a Colbert Report prank. I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this discussion. Nate • (chatter) 03:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• My two cents: Sherucij's "experiment" has no legitimate value, and such actions risk undermining the credibility of the project. This was caught, but it was done very cleverly with multiple authentic looking off-line cites. It was also submitted at the last minute to avoid the usual five days of due diligence and reviews. This very easily could have slipped through. The apparent use of the sockpuppetry makes it more eggregious. If there are not serious ramifications for what amounts to an attack on the integrity of the Main Page, it will only encourage more pranksters or "experimenters." Cbl62 (talk) 03:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
• I have to concur with Cb162. Disruptive editing usually carries a block, though such action would be punitive in this case, as I am certain that no one will approve a DYK hook from this editor ever again. I seem to recall, though, that an editor who was passing inaccurate items through to DYK was topic-banned from DYK; a similar sanction in this case might be appropriate, to prevent future disruption of this type. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 03:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• I disagree with Cb162 on one point - Sherucij's prank has value. We are fortunate that this one was caught, but copyvios have appeared as DYK entries not too long ago, and it is entirely possible that hoaxes have as well. You are basically arguing for punitive action against Sherucij, but lacking any expectation that he will persist in this type of nonsense, does that serve a useful purpose? It was a very childish way to make a WP:POINT, but the point is valid none the less. Vandals are going to vandalize, regardless of what we do with any other editors. The important question here is to ask how we can prevent vandals from using DYK as an attack point. Resolute 03:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I leave it up to the admins here to decide what should be done. But the answer to your question about "how we can prevent vandals from using DYK as an attack point" is simple in my mind. When someone is caught red-handed perpetrating such an attack, you need to mete out meaningful punishment. Otherwise, you will be telling the world it's OK to engage in such an attack without suffering consequences.Cbl62 (talk) 03:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In fairness, established editors with 30,000 edits representing 5-8 hours a day of work on the project make up 0.00000001% of vandalism on Wikipedia. Perhaps it would have been wiser to "log out" before conducting my experiment so that I would just be another faceless crime - but as was said, this was done to test a theory, not to legitimately undermine the project. If it had made it to the main page, I would have immediately had an administrator remove it - and bring up the "breach" and the lack of fact-checking to discuss how we can help prevent the 99.99999999% of anonymous/troll vandalism that represents a legitimate threat to the project. Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 04:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In fairness, it appears you did "log out" before making the nomination as the article was nominated by (Minnehaha Mouse (talk · contribs). Do you admit or deny that this is a sockpuppet??Cbl62 (talk) 04:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Of course, vandals never suffer consequences, all that happens to them is that they're stopped from editing here, which they're not interested in doing anyway. It doesn't really punish a vandal to take away his can of spray paint; it just makes it more difficult for him to do damage. It looks like Cb162 is advocating for a punitive block, which we don't do. That said, I think Sherurcij has one hell of a lot of gall pulling a stunt like this and then telling us about all the good you've done here. No, it would not have been wiser to "log out". What would have been wiser would have been not to deliberately fuck up the project to satisfy your curiosity about how difficult it would be. When you stop to think about it, that's what most vandals are doing. If you want to continue to be trusted, you can start by saying two things you haven't said yet.

"I was wrong." and

"I'm sorry."

--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 04:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I will bell the cat. This conduct is unacceptable, and I have blocked Sherurcij for 24 hours.

There isn't any non-disruptive way this could have been done? You couldn't have made a user page and asked the DYK people if they'd pass it? You couldn't have raised this issue somewhere on talk instead? We prove points by arguing them, not experimentally. At the very least, you wasted the time of one of DYK's factcheckers, time that could have been better spent checking other, legitimate articles. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

An article for DYK is typically looked at in intermediate states by a small number of editors. It's not a peer review. People do try to check the hook and its reference, but there is no promise that paragraphs of plausible-sounding text will get fact-checked. Editors have put slanted, POV pages through DYK before - and it's usually experienced editors who know how to do it. Here we have an editor with 16k mainspace edits. Somehow, I doubt he'll do it again, since he would certainly be banned for it. The block log should make sure we don't forget. Gimmetrow 04:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I waited a while to allow the guy to answer, and he hasn't so I'll call this one. Minnehaha Mouse (talk · contribs) is a  Confirmed sock of Sherurcij (talk · contribs) and yeah, I'm calling this abusive sockpuppetry, hence checkuser. At least now the community can make some sort of informed decision on the matter. My personal choice would be an indef for the silly sock and a large helping of trout for Sherurcij - Alison ^❤ 04:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

(numerous EC and server tech diff) That block is clearly punitive and as such unacceptable. In fact, given the recent troubles with DYK, I find his unorthodox experiment, while outside the norms of Wikipedia to NOT be an act of 'vandalism', but perhaps the only way to truly test what we're doing here, and if we're doing it well. I can't 'commend' him for his choice, but not only do I understand it, i myself wondered about the same exact thing in light of the copyvios we saw making it there. He's shown that true 'pranks' and falsehoods still get screened out. To punitively block a good contributor who chose an inelegant solution is abusive. His results are far more reaffirming of the project than a knee-jerk revenge block, and I support an immediate unblock with an apology from AMiB, who clearly does NOT have consensus for it. ThuranX (talk) 04:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree. This is a punitive block and should be undone. Blocking Sherurcij doesn't solve the central issue here, neither does burying our heads in the sand. Resolute 04:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There are two central issues here. DYK has issues with defending the front page from bad content, and a longstanding user who should know better disrupting Wikipedia to make that point. Sherurcij knows better than to waste everyone's time by putting misinformation into Wikipedia to test our ability to detect and remove it. The former can be solved in ways other than disrupting the project, the latter can only be solved by not putting up with disruptive conduct. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In a word, a word I like in these situations: Bullshit. Sherurcij was not disruptive in any normal sense of it as used on WP. One, he was watchign the entire time, self-policing with the full intent to pull the article before it embarrassed us, and only to gather information about the first part, the problems with DYK, which regularly get noted, then dismissed as irrelevant to whatever novel problem brought the DYK issues up. The editor is blocked, an article edited, whatever. The underlying efficacy of DYK has not been examined, and yet again, the push here is to sweep aside the faults of DYK in favor of 'getting' Sherurcij. This constant 'I can block one guy, but I can't lead a big discussion and really fix a policy issue' attitude is a weakness of too many admins. AMiB shows here that he thinks one block of one guy will solve this larger issue. He better have a whole lot of big fingers to stick in all the dikes, because the leaks are many, and spilling fast. Sherurcij showed that big problems can be caught at DYK, so that's a positive. However, there are problems there, and now we can refine them. Unfortunately, When we block the proximate cause, we ignore the underlying faults. It's happening again, and AMiB stands on his block as if it's a solution rather than a distraction. ThuranX (talk) 05:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

He wasted everyone's time proving things experimentally. I don't think blocking Sherurcij will solve DYK's problems, but it will contribute to solving the problem of people proving their points experimentally instead of with discussion. His conduct isn't solving any problems, either, and we have longstanding consensus that this is not the way we fix problems here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

And now DYK noms will be checked relentlessly, there will be a higher burden of proof on offline references, articles will be checked mercilessly for POV, many good contributors will be turned down "because we can't take the chance" and all because one person hid a bomb in their shoe tried to prove a point. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 05:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Mmm yummy, a Godwin play. Hyperbolic distract, fails. He did no such thing. A carefully monitored experiment, which only proved that DYK worked IF someone took the time to notice. I've yet to see AMiB say anything about an alternative way to actually test the efficacy of DYK. He can't. This IS the only way. it's about time someone did it, but regardless, it's till a punitive block done well after and without consensus in this thread to block. and AMiB, he wasted ONE person's time; You're wasting more throwing out punishment blocks without consensus. Why don't you spend that time figuring out a way to ensure the continued high success of DYK without anythign changing at all. I think it's called WISHING. go start. ThuranX (talk) 05:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I came up with two alternate methods after 30 seconds of thinking, and mentioned as much before. Here's a third: it has been claimed that POV or outright false articles have made it through before, so begin a discussion based on previous failures instead of contriving a new one. Discussion is how you effect change on Wikipedia, not experimentation.

As for the "Why doesn't anyone think of the childrenDYK?" argument, why don't you spend time figuring out how to ensure the continued high success of DYK instead of complaining on ANI about a block following unrepentant disruptive conduct? We both have the both answer: we see other issues that also need addressing. Let's address them with a minimum of rhetoric, on both sides, either here or elsewhere. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It's true, though,. that DYK is open to gaming. It is very common to see five or six tenuous hooks offered to a series of new articles on barely-notable baseball players all created by the same user, for example. Many of the DYK hooks get an official "so what?" from me. I did get a few through with my alt account, including Gas Light and Coke Company, but many DYKs are strained to breaking point. Guy (Help!) 08:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

His method was debatably undesirable, but his intentions were for the best of the project. I can understand the block, but it appears to me as a block for the sake of reprimanding the user. He is a reasonable fellow; discussion would have had the same effect, especially given that his experiment failed. I have requested an unblock. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There is one question that bothers me most with all this (and I started this thread, above). Why was it necessary for a sockpuppet account to be created to test DYK fact checking? If there was a good reason, why didn't Sherurcij admit the sockpuppet right away instead of wasting more time and effort for a Checkuser to be run? Iasked this question at least twice and there was never any answer. I have assumed good faith that this was an experiment, but more negative interpretations are certainly possible. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 10:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Big picture, little picture is my AGF-based solution to that. ThuranX (talk) 11:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

My point is that there is little chance Sherurcij is going to go on a sock-filled DYK hoaxing spree anytime soon, and thus we aren't blocking him to prevent further disruption, we're blocking him as a slap on the wrist and a scolding. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 11:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

A sock does seem pretty strange; it would have attracted more attention. Maybe he wanted it to be a slightly suspicious set of circumstances, so that it was a DYK that people should have been inspecting more closely.

I can understand that his reluctance to answer you is annoying, but ... he pretty much did admit to the sockpuppet, if you read between the lines, by his reluctance to confirm or deny it, and the cute answer.

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 12:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse 24-hour block for sockpuppetry, hoaxing, and extremely POINTy disruption. --Kralizec! (talk) 12:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• On the standard of DYKs, I noticed recently in passing a user page of archived DYKs that an Irish language word had been used in the incorrect context. Although in that case it wasn't the fact that was incorrect but the grammar. Apparently no one noticed so it was allowed to feature on the Main Page. :( --Candlewicke (Talk) 13:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Good block, short block, trout slap, very low tolerance for nonsense in the future. Chillum 15:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it was actually the DYK standards that caught this. If it were simply written and left alone, it certainly would have taken longer to spot. --NE2 17:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I have to oppose the block as being a punitive rather than a preventative measure; Sherurcij has come clean regarding the inappropriate behavior and there is no reason to suspect that the sockpuppetry/disruptive editing will continue. Absent any evidence to the contrary, how can this block be called anything but punitive? Shereth 17:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

What makes you think this won't happen again? The user came clean because the user was caught, this does not bolster any confidence in me. Chillum 18:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Because they don't have a history of this kind of thing. A one-off hoax from a long-standing and otherwise behaved editor does not shake my faith enough to suspect that they're about to start running rampant. Whatever happened to assuming good faith and taking people at their word that they won't foul up again? Shereth 18:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

How do we know it was a one-off hoax? Assumption of good faith has been revoked. Corvus cornix_talk 19:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, perhaps I missed it, but where did Sherurcij "come clean" regarding his POINTy use of the Minnehaha Mouse sock? In all of the messages I read above, he specifically ignored answering the question (hence the checkuser involvement). Regardless, the very existence of this thread (and its length) is proof positive of the disruption caused by this hoax. --Kralizec! (talk) 19:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• I largely support AMiB's action here (I'm not an admin, FWIW). The block was short, proportional to the disruption (socking, misrepresentation, etc) and not executed from an involved admin. In the absence of evidence pointing to constant future attempts to add Hoaxes to DYK, the only way to issue a "preventative" block to this user would be to see into the future and block both the user and his/her sock prior to the insertion of the hoax. Thus if we require a literal interpretation of the dictum that blocks must only be issue to prevent incipient disruption to the encyclopedia, we can't block this user temporarily. That interpretation leaves us in an untenable position. I think that AMiB operated on a much more plausible interpretation, that "block only for prevention of disruption" is a policy for a reason--this reason is meant to prevent admins from "blocking to serve as a warning to other users", "blocking to win an argument", blocking to "teach a lesson". There is a reason the admonition about blocking is in bold lettering all by itself. It is important. But it isn't a straightjacket. That wording doesn't leave us with the outcome of "well, someone disrupted the encyclopedia in a manner but isn't doing it right now, the only response is to warn them and hope they don't do it again". No. We deal with a continuum of conduct here, ranging from the obviously actionable to the obviously acceptable. Responding to that continuum with disproportionate measures is damaging to the project. Response that is proportional and tailored to the issue at hand is called for. That, in my opinion, is what AMiB did. Protonk (talk) 20:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Legal threats from User:Dancersrock9211.

I recently warned this user for his edits to Talk:Main Page (see here[107]), and then he came back on my talk page blatantly threating legal action[108]. I frankly would rather clean up the encyclopedia than have to worry about being sued. MattWT (talk) 04:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that was a specific legal threat, but he's one disruptive edit away from being blocked anyway. Exploding Boy (talk) 04:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"i can most likly sue you for that and well i dont think that yo u will like that. so yahh just leave me alone and if you think that i can't well then ur wrong and it you make it so that i can not edit this web site will just make it better in court!

I don't mean to say you're wrong on this one, but it really does sound like he's willing to take me to court. Could you maybe contact him and get his input? I'd alert him of WP:NLT because he more than likely doesn't know that he's in violation of that policy, but i'm not feeling too comfortable talking to him at all anymore. MattWT (talk) 04:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a clear legal threat, do what i want and don't block me or i'll sue. block him till he explains himself. ThuranX (talk) 05:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC) (On closer look, this all might fall under BLock, Revert, Ignore, and Don't feed the Trolls.) ThuranX (talk) 05:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right. That's bizarre: I totally misread that. Think it's time for bed.... Exploding Boy (talk) 05:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I put a {{uw-legal}} on their talk page. Let's see a bit of AGF, we've given them just enough rope to hang themselves. -MBK₀₀₄ 05:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The user can't ask for better treatment than that. I would have blocked indef as a vandal only account. Kevin (talk) 06:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Another Sarah Palin thing

Someone created this redirect with the name of the person alleged to be Sarah Palin's daughter's fiance. Should the redirect be deleted and cascade-protected? Opinions welcome. Kelly ^hi! 05:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the standard RfD process should be used, unless there are BLP issues here? Calvin 1998 ^(t-c) 05:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Redundant threads here; see WP:AN#Levi Johnston. Chick Bowen 05:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Already discussed on WP:AN --mboverload@ 05:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Young editors

Resolved

 – Now everybody knows. EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Are children under the age of 13 not allowed to edit wiki? I was under the impression that they can't legally join any site whose servers are located in the USA. In any case, if that's true, this kid User:Xlr8_the_hedgehog is illegal. Viralhyena (talk) 07:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Xlr8 the hedgehog (talk · contribs) doesn't exist; also, you've misread the under-13s thing - they are allowed to edit here. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ has nothing to declare except his jeans 07:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Xlr8 the Hedgehog (talk · contribs) does exist, but is 13 anyway. Algebraist 08:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There are certain laws related to the collecting of personally-identifying information from people under the age of 13, but since Wikipedia doesn't collect such information, the laws don't apply. --Carnildo (talk) 08:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

And they don't apply to non-profit organisations anyway. Hut 8.5 09:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The U.S. rule is COPPA. I suppose WP as a non-profit is not required to follow it, but might it not be a good idea to do so voluntarily? Gimmetrow 15:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? Young editors can contribute just as normally as older editors. Also, that would violate "that anyone may edit" clause. Admiral Norton ^(talk) 16:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia already does follow COPPA voluntarily: People under the age of 13 are allowed to edit, but Wikipedia does not ask for any personally identifiable information from them (or anyone else, for that matter), and in fact when those under the age of 13 are discovered to have voluntarily posted personal information in user or talk space, it is removed and oversighted out of the edit history. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Obama is being repeateadedly added to the Red_Diaper_Baby page

Resolved

 – Page semi-protected by JForget (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). SoWhy 10:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There's an ongoing attempt to list Barack Obama on the Red_diaper_baby page. Presumably a new form of googlebombing. VasileGaburici (talk) 09:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The page has been semi-protected and this should stop now. If it continues after the protection expires, consider requesting further protection at WP:RFPP. SoWhy 10:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

User:GradualReport

Resolved

 – Page deleted by EyeSerene (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). SoWhy 13:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I've just been reverting assorted vandalism from User:GradualReport. It looks like a bio for Daniel Grozdich, apparently his article was deleted and this was either a draft new attempt or a copy of what was deleted; and the vandalism seems to be a bunch of fans and foes warring over the Bio. So I've taken the liberty of moving the draft article from User:GradualReport to User:GradualReport/Sandbox, and leaving a note on the talk page. I hope that all makes sense and is OK, but can someone who knows why Daniel Grozdich was deleted run an eye over this and tell me whether or not I made the right call? Ta ϢereSpielChequers 09:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

From the logs, this article was deleted five times between the 25th and 26th of last month (under various speedy criteria). Notability seems to be the primary concern, but it looks like things rapidly degenerated into edit-warring and vandalism. It gives no reliable sources (youtube, myspace), nothing to indicate notability, and as a WP:BIO article it makes claims that should be cited. The username also indicates a possible WP:COI "Gradual Report" is the name of this chap's internet show. I have deleted it again as a word-for-word recreation of previously deleted material, but I won't be surprised to see it again (looks like someone's got a copy saved offline somewhere). EyeSerene^talk 10:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a short question, if I may: I thought that CSD#G4 cannot be applied in Userspace? SoWhy 11:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

True, and I didn't cite G4 in the deletion log. However, there was no evidence that the user had requested a restoration to their userspace in order to work on the article; to be frank, it looked to me like an attempt to recreate what was basically a vanity article as a personal userpage, under a username related to the article. If someone believes otherwise though, feel free to restore ;) EyeSerene^talk 11:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't look but I couldn't think of another reason to delete restored material previously deleted. I guess you know what you are doing :-) I wouldn't have deleted it myself because it will make it more likely for the user to be annoyed and start disrupting but I am no admin so I have no experience to judge if that was correct. I just wondered about it, that's all.^^ SoWhy 11:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Heh, no problems, you're right to point out potential procedural issues (quis custodiet and all that...) Normally such things would go to WP:MFD, but I think in a fairly blatant case like this there's no harm in applying a little WP:IAR and saving everyone some time. EyeSerene^talk 11:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Who watches the watchman? I do!"</Sam Vimes> ;-)

But you are correct of course, I guess a little WP:IAR was correct, after all, it can all be restored easily :-) SoWhy 12:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This your admin toolbar with button on it. You will eat it. You will sleep on it! When Jimbo say Jump, you say... What colour?! ...with apologies to TP EyeSerene^talk 12:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I do like admins users with a good taste. But I am fraid we are digressing a bit from the topic. I'll just put a resolved tag on it so that this comment makes some sense at least ;-) SoWhy 13:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Userpages / Spam

I've been noticing recently that after I flag a spam article it appears on the authors userpage. Sometimes the usernames are clearly promotional and I've flagged them but I'm wonder what a "normal" editor should do if a userpage is basically a spam article? Do I csd it? Should I edit it and remove the spam? Are userpages treated differently? I didn't want to tread on toes too much! (Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask, but I figured there'd be some admin oversight in all of this!) --Blowdart | ^talk 10:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

After talking with the user, an MfD or CSD would likely be next. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

See the relevant section at WP:UP for further information. SoWhy 10:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Aye, just found that myself finally! Thank you both, I'm starting out slowly with one user to see what sort of response there is :) --Blowdart | ^talk 10:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

just to emphasize: G11 (SPAM) does apply to userspace (G stands for General). -- lucasbfr ^talk 12:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

So does G4, really. We often delete egregious end-runs around deletion policy under G4, there is a limit to how many kicks at the can any article gets. Good faith rewrite attempts are obviously OK, though. Guy (Help!) 17:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Personal Attach by probably Sock Puppet IP

Resolved

 – IP blocked _Gb^T/c 12:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

63.226.229.234 (talk · contribs) has launched a personal attack against myself and an admin, Parsecboy (talk · contribs). Please check his addition here: [109] and his edit summary here: [110]. This is likely a sock puppet of Jetwave Dave (talk · contribs) or DroneZone (talk · contribs), however a simple ban at this point is likely sufficient. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 12:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Note: I fixed the user templates in the above message for sake of clarity. _Gb^T/c 12:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

IP blocked for 31 hours. _Gb^T/c 12:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Returning POV attack vandal Nangparbat

Hello all, I need a second opinion here. A couple weeks ago I made a series of rangeblocks to stop a repeat sockpuppeteer, User:Nangparbat from returning via IP addresses to attack other editors and accuse the site of biased, POV articles. He's back again, which at first makes me think we just need a larger rangeblock and then a few admins playing whack-a-mole with any IPs that pop up afterward, but the problem is these IPs are from BT Broadband, one of the UK's larger service providers. The large list of IP's I've collected (see User:Hersfold/Vandal watch#Nangparbat) make it very clear that he's going all over the place, and so any rangeblocks applied would have huge collateral damage. Second thoughts on this? The vandal watch page I've linked lists all IP addresses used so far, which ones are active now, and blocks that have been previously enforced. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 13:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If that is some vandal who is really really dedicated in evading all blocks, maybe WP:ABUSE is the right answer? Just a thought... SoWhy 13:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Rangeblocks to UK Broadband providers (especially private subscribers) is fraught with problems. You get a new addy each time you log on, so a range that was used for vandalism one day is chock full of good faith contributors the next. I regret to say that abuse reports are not handled with the urgency one might desire (it is rumoured that the first complaint is always binned as standard practice). If wiki software cannot resolve it, go to the ISP and complain often and frequently and say you will refer it to the ombudsman if no joy. Best luck. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Some do, some don't. I'm on a permanent IP address. If you plug the IP into http://samspade.org/ and it shows "ASSIGNED PA", it's likely to be permanent over a term of months and can usually be safely blocked for such periods. FYI, Virgin Media give out static IPs, Tiscali don't. --Rodhullandemu 16:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Cool tool. I am aware that some ISP's (Tiscali for example) provide stable ip's (at a cost, since it is aimed at the business community) but the lower cost subscriptions are generally whatever is available at the time. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused now, as the check on Samspade shows that one of the recently used addresses is "ASSIGNED PA", and should be a stable IP, but this vandal has used at least nine IP addresses in the past few days alone. It seems like something's not adding up here.

For the record, I had thought of an abuse report, but I think that's more for after we've stopped the immediate problem, as the ISP is not going to pull someone's plug just on our say-so, and I have also had some rather slow experiences with those anyway. I'm looking to block first, and then consider contacting the ISP. The problem is, I'm not sure if we're better off rangeblocking or if we should just play whack-a-mole. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 17:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The ip may well be assigned, but not to that individual (place of work or other business that allows people internet access - or even a friend) necessarily. I think it is whack-a-mole at least for the time being. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Eml4500.f08

Numerous accounts beginning with Eml4500.f08 have been created, and it seems that some university class is attempting to use Wikipedia as a sort of free webhost. The names that have come up on UAA have been blocked but new ones keep coming in - any additional help on the matter would be appreciated. Shereth 16:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• Note - similar issue with User:Eas4200c.f08 and related usernames. Shereth 16:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere on Wikipedia there's a guideline for professors who want to use Wikipedia in there classes. The talk pages of these accounts should get a note directing them to it. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 16:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This is already being discussed at WP:AN#It's that time of year again, more college classes to keep an eye on.... Deor (talk) 16:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

User:SterkeBak

<redacted - the text is in the page history> Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 17:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Um, okay. Tiptoety ^talk 17:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This should be deleted from this page as an unsourced attack on another user. Corvus cornix_talk 19:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I have redacted. The named account has one week old edit setting up his userpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Banned "Gay Pornography Vandal" is back

Every three months or so we have to renew a range block on the banned Gay Pornography Vandal; they obsessively check to see when it has ended, and it apparently has just recently. Could someone please renew. These are the current pages where they are removing content or lodging violent death threats against Wikipedia editors and celebrities. After that is the previous block discussion and which range to block:

• Talk:Michael Lucas (director)
• User talk:Durova
• User talk:Alison
• Hardcore pornography
• Diving
• King Charles Spaniel
• Great South Bay
• PJ DeBoy
• Jason Bellini
• Andy Towle
• Fire Island Pines
• The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
• East Village, Manhattan
• Shortbus

---

Archived Discussion (see dates):

Notification: Rangeblock on 72.76.0.0/16

The IP range 72.76.0.0/16 has been soft-blocked (AO, account creation allowed) for a month due to ongoing activity related to harrassment of David Shankbone and vandalism to porn and adult themed articles. This rangeblock may need to be expanded if the stalker moves outside that IP range and will be extended in time if the harrasser returns. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

According to whois, the full range is 72.64.0.0/11, but I haven't yet seen this one operating outside of 72.76.x.x, so a /16 seems the obvious place to start. Had figured this might come to a rangeblock if the abuse continued. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there were some back channel discussions on the /11, but as nearly all the abuse happened from that /16 I'm starting there. If they step outside that range please let me know. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Mediawiki can only block /16s. Blocking 32 different /16s (2 million addresses) to stop one vandal would be a really bad idea. Thatcher 01:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I have undone George's block, since it is not the correct IP range for this particular miscreant. The three that are (71.127.224.0/20, 72.68.0.0/17, and 72.76.0.0/17 for future reference) are all blocked now. east.718 at 10:15, July 12, 2008

End of Archived Discussion

---

• They are also spamming my site in edit summaries, which is verboten. --David Shankbone 17:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
• 72.68.29.38 just vandalised King Charles Spaniel as part of this. I thought I'd report it here for consistency - please can someone block it. ϢereSpielChequers 18:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I've tracked two attacks to Verizon. I suggest that either David or a Wiki official send the death threat diffs to abuse at verizon.net and ask them to take action. ϢereSpielChequers 18:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• Those death threats freak me out. Poor David... -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 18:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

What to do with a Role IP account

User:86.136.157.238 is the current IP used by a person signing their posts as the Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of All England at York, a schismatic body from the United Grand Lodge of England (and thus a role account). He has posted before with other IPs, also signing as such. I figured he was not going to be an issue, but he has fact-tagged items in Grand Lodge not because they are wrong (they're Google-verifiable) but because they don't fit with his group's claims of antiquity - accepted documentation from UGLE and others says Freemasonry originated in 1717, and IIRC the other group's claim is much earlier (9- or 10-something) from King Athelstan at York. This goes against accepted history, and the vehemency of the position indicates a possible edit war, though I have asked for discussion first (which I don't expect to get). Unfortunately, there's no info on what to do about role accounts on ROLE, so I do need some process assistance here. MSJapan (talk) 17:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Role accounts are blocked on sight unless they have approval from the Foundation, however we expect IP addresses to have multiple people behind them. If his edits are being particularly problematic (sorry, don't have time to check now), then we may block for that, however we don't block IP's because they're shared. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 18:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The point MSJapan is making is not that the IP is shared; in general, all IPs are shared. The point is that all the users of the IP are editing with the same intention, possibly from multiple workstaions, with the intention of achieving the aim of their collective organisatoin. ╟─Treasury§Tag►contribs─╢ 18:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Tons Of Page Moves without any Consensus

User:Kyo2590 moved the following articles without consensus, or even any talk on the talk page:

Project Runway (season 1) to Project Runway Season 1 Project Runway (season 2) to Project Runway Season 2 Project Runway (season 3) to Project Runway Season 3 Project Runway (season 4) to Project Runway Season 4 Project Runway (season 5) to Project Runway Season 5

What is the process that should be done in this situation. Should they just be moved back (an admin would need to move them back), should we get consensus to move them back, or what else?<3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 18:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Reverted, and it didn't require admin access. Rollback failed, as (except for season 3), there was no previous version to rollback to, but a manual moved worked. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I would have suggested to approach this editor personally and ask him why he did what he did before asking for admin intervention. He also should have been notified of this thread which I just did. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

He should have been notified, but the actions are clearly not right. However, it's understandable, as the articles read Project Runway Season n (where n is the number 1–5). It's up to the content editors to fix the articles so it doesn't look like the right thing to do. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Otterathome using Twinkle rollback capability to edit war

I came across an edit made by Otterathome (talk · contribs) where he/she had removed a fact tag without discussion, using Twinkle rollback to remove it (on Uncyclopedia). I put a message on Otterathome's Talk page that removing a fact tag without providing a cite shouldn't be done, and he reverted me without discussion (except for "Go away"), using the rollback facility of Twinkle. This is an inappropriate use of rollback, and I request that Otterathome's Twinkle use be removed. Corvus cornix_talk 19:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Otterathome has now modified my comments on his/her Talk page and replied with "Mind your own business". I've notified him/her of this discussion. Corvus cornix_talk 19:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Does look to be needlessly inappropriate and curt. If there is any indication this behavior is pervasive then I would support the above recommendation. Shereth 20:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)