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Revision as of 09:13, 10 June 2010
Reviewing featured articles This page is for the review and improvement of featured articles (FAs) that may no longer meet the featured article criteria. FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted. There are three requisite stages in the process, to which all users are welcome to contribute. 1. Raise issues at the article's talk page
2. Featured article review (FAR)
3. Featured article removal candidate (FARC)
The FAR and FARC stages typically last two to three weeks, or longer where changes are ongoing and it seems useful to continue the process. Nominations are moved from the review period to the removal list, unless it is very clear that editors feel the article is within criteria. Given that extensions are always granted on request, as long as the article is receiving attention, editors should not be alarmed by an article moving from review to the removal candidates' list. To contact the FAR coordinators, please leave a message on the FAR talk page, or use the {{@FAR}} notification template elsewhere. Urgent reviews are listed here. Older reviews are stored in the archive. Table of Contents – This page: Purge cache, Checklinks, Check redirects, Dablinks |
Featured article candidates (FAC) Today's featured article (TFA):
Featured article tools: |
Nominating an article for FAR The number of FARs that can be placed on the page is limited as follows:
Nominators are strongly encouraged to assist in the process of improvement; they should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days) and should avoid segmenting review pages. Three to six months is regarded as the minimum time between promotion and nomination here, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a radical change in article content.
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Featured article reviews
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 11:20, 10 June 2010 [1].
- Notified: Sadads, Nev1, Malleus Fatuorum, Ranger Steve, Iridescent, Hamiltonstone, Parrot of Doom, Johnbod, WikiProject Rowing, WikiProject Sailing, WikiProject Arctic
I am nominating this featured article for review because it strays far off the topic of the boat itself, and of any demonstrated special effect the boat had, but becomes a general history of the inventor and expeditions that (by chance) used the boat.
It has loose, informal, unattested language such as, "long been interested in the difficulties", "widely praised", "would serve any useful purpose" that amounts to essay original research.
The article caught my eye yesterday because it starts with a misconception that led me to suspect that the editors did not have experience with the subject, but were simply involved in synthesis. (Halkett's claims about the use of his boat as a cloak and an umbrella would not seem unusual to someone who has traveled in the wilderness in a small boat.)
The article was nominated by the editor who started it. Within five days editors who had had major involvement writing the article submitted it for Featured Article status, and then voted that they themselves had done an excellent job. This is inappropriate.
To fix the article, the off-topic content should be deleted, and the personal original speculation removed.
Truly, Piano non troppo (talk) 09:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Reading the instructions above, I find these words: "Nominators ... should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days)... . Three to six months is regarded as the minimum time between promotion and nomination here, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a radical change in article content." Is there any reason why neither of these instructions should apply to this nomination? BencherliteTalk 09:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The FA nomination process happened in five days, and was voted into FA status by the editors who wrote it. This seems improper. Giving the article a grace period of months seems inappropriate. The problem is current. (The article was not called to my attention on account of its FA status, but because it displayed in MWT anti-vandalism. I did the same evaluation on it that I would do on any article.) Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 09:46, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I supported the article, and the extent to which I "wrote it" is limited to this single edit. I first saw the article from FAC and have not changed my mind in the last two weeks or so. Johnbod (talk) 10:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (e/c) OK, let's look at that allegation more closely, shall we? The main author and nominator was Iridescent. Parrot of Doom made four very minor changes and supported; PoD did not edit the article sufficiently to be disqualified from supporting it. Malleus made a number of minor copy-editing changes, as he often does on request before or during an FAC. I would not have thought that would have disqualified him from supporting. Hamiltonstone added one sentence based on the discussion at FAC; again, not disqualifying. Jappalang supported, and has never edited the article; the same goes for AnOddName. Johnbod supported, and added a category - are you seriously saying that this disqualifies him from supporting? To me, it looks as though the only major contributor of content was Iridescent, with polishing from Malleus. By far the majority of the supporters were editors with no disqualifying interest in the article's creation or promotion, some of whom I know without having to look it up are experienced FA writers themselves. So would you care to rephrase your allegation? BencherliteTalk 10:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dismiss. Absurd accusations. FAC was not rigged and article would seem to be of FA quality, and have yet to see any detailed and nopn-vague accusations against the article. Skinny87 (talk) 10:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I stand by my partial support, and reiterate my FAC comments, less the bulleted ones (they were either dealt with by other editors or answered to my satisfaction by Iridescent, and were minor anyway). I'm not convinced the parts about the boats' creator and their real-world use are "off the topic of the boat itself". On the contrary, an article on, say, a film or anime series would probably need info about its development (inspirations, technical info, people involved, ...), sales, and critical reception to even be on WP, let alone featured. Because the article touches on (analogues of) all of those aspects—as I think it should—I feel wiser about what inspired the boats and their maker, as well as whether people actually gave a shit about the boats back then (and they clearly did). --an odd name 11:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I’m afraid I don’t understand this FAR nom. The article is well written, well sourced and well illustrated. I don’t see where “it strays far off the topic of the boat itself, and of any demonstrated special effect the boat had, but becomes a general history of the inventor and expeditions that (by chance) used the boat”. The article combines as much supporting information about the use of the boat as I would expect in any article. How is including details and opinions of the explorers who used it “straying”? How are they not detailing the boat itself?
- The “loose, informal, unattested language” is all sourced and makes perfect sense to me. “Long been interested in the difficulties…” is a referenced statement and doesn’t seem unusual for someone who used to live in Canada. “Widely praised” seems to be supported by the opinions and comments of 4 explorers notable enough to have their own articles. “Would serve any useful purpose” is again supported by a reference. Sorry Piano, but can you clarify exactly what your problem with this language actually is? Nor do I understand what you’re saying in your 3rd paragraph – can you please clarify the misconception, because I’m afraid I really don’t follow it.
- In my personal opinion Iridescent has done a fine job of compiling probably all the information there is about an obscure, unknown subject in a good (nay, featured) article. The talk page mentions the lack of a photo of the surviving boat – the one easily accessible image is copyrighted and shows that the actual boat isn’t worth going to any trouble to get a free use one of (it looks like a raisin!). Cheers, Ranger Steve (talk) 11:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowMonkey 01:37, 14 July 2010 [2].
Review commentary
- Notified: Titoxd, Tropical cyclone WikiProject
I am nominating this featured article for review because I don't believe it still meets the FA criteria. There is a glaring section missing (aftermath) that is in most tropical cyclone articles. There are many unsourced sections, and there are as many poorly sourced sections, using outdated references. If I read the article, I would wonder what the hurricane did that resulted in so much damage. In the United States section, it mentions a lot of meteorological statistics and some damage figures, but it doesn't indicate any physical damage.
The article could be rewritten entirely to ensure it meets FA standards, but it shouldn't have to be. It doesn't meet the FA criteria right now, and it wouldn't unless someone were to put a lot of work into it (and since it was featured almost four years ago, there hasn't been much of an effort to keep it in good shape). Hurricanehink (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Unlike earlier in the year, now I should actually have time to work on this one. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are quality of sourcing, citations and comprehensiveness YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Main contributor told this article is now at FARC. Hopefully, FAR concerns will start to be addressed. --mav (reviews needed) 14:04, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - It has been more than a month since this article was brought to FAR, and over two weeks since it was moved to FARC, and nothing but very minor formatting has been done. Significant work needed... Dana boomer (talk) 12:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, due to unexpected RL stuff I will be unable to work on it at all for a few weeks, so I think a new FAC would be better than stalling the FARC. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 19:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:09, 12 July 2010 [3].
Review commentary
I am nominating this featured article for review because it was promoted to FA in 2006 and judging from the content of the talk page, it seems that there has been quite a lot of discussion on the content of this article which may have had an impact on the article that was judged to be FA-worthy in 2006. Some of my specific concerns with this article as far as FA criteria are concerned include:
- 1a: I would not consider the prose of the "History" and "Controversy" sections to be "engaging...and of a professional standard."
- 1b: The "Tourism" section is far too short and may contain OR (the mention of an increase in visitors due to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally). For example, how much revenue does the memorial generate for the state? Where/how far do these visitors come from?
- 2a: While the lead (which I just rewrote from its previous hodgepodge state) summarizes the topic well, it does not "prepare the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections." For example, it mentions nothing that is contained in the "Controversy", "Ecology", or "Geology" sections.
- 2: The "In popular culture" section seems to have been forked into a separate article with no text left behind in the main article other than a hatnote pointing to the fork.
I would love to make these improvements myself, but due to my reduced availability to commit time to WP I'm asking for help. I only want to see this article delisted as a last resort. —KuyaBriBriTalk 21:58, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mount Rushmore could use some expansion and clean up...I would voice the following concerns..
- Why is the page semi-protected? Has it been a page that has been attracting a lot of vandalism?...if not, it needs to be unprotected except from moves.
- The intro needs expansion as User:Kuyabribri has stated.
- The tourism section could be expanded to included other sites nearby such as Badlands National Park, Wind Cave National Park, Jewel Cave National Monument...and other historical attractions like Deadwood, South Dakota...all within less than an hour or two drive of Mount Rushmore.
- The "Controversy" section is not a primary section and should be at the end...the main focus of the monument is the sculpture and the mountain itself (Rushmore)...so the sculpture, as in how this mountain was selected and why, the design phase and the actual work done how and for how long, should be the emphasis...then a discussion on the geology and ecology of the monument and lastly tourism and controversy, which in my opinion deserves less coverage than it is given.
- I too am lacking time to enhance this article...it probably needs about 20 hours of dedication to save it from being delisted as featured...--MONGO 05:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I unprotected it. It had been protected indefinitely while the text in the article claimed that the protection was set to expire a year ago. Likely overlooked or the wrong button pushed when the protection was added. Rmhermen (talk) 14:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are prose, sourcing, weight and comprehensiveness YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:40, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - Per the sourcing problems. GamerPro64 (talk) 02:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 02:22, 23 June 2010 [4].
- Notified: Seb Patrick, ChrisTheDude, North wales cestrian, DreamGuy, Tpbradbury, WikiProject Football, WikiProject Comics, Today's featured article/requests
On Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/requests, Roy of the Rovers was discussed as a possible Main Page article for the end of the 2010 World Cup; however, the article needs cleanup before it should make that appearance. Specifically, I have the following FA criteria concerns:
- Criteria 1B: Comprehensiveness
- While the lead says that Roy of the Rovers "was the most popular [football comic] ever produced, with an estimated one million readers at the height of its popularity in the late 1970s and early 1980s. As such, it holds a unique place in British football folklore, demonstrated most clearly by the stock media phrase 'real Roy of the Rovers stuff'...", there is no greater discussion of the cultural impact of Roy of the Rovers in the UK except in passing.
- Criteria 1C: Well-researched
- Whole sections have no citations, including the "Regular features" section. There are multiple [citation needed] and {{refimprove}} tags present. The vast majority of the citations present are to newspapers or the strip's own website, making it questionable if the article content is supported by high-quality reliable sources as required.
- Criteria 2C: Consistent citations
- The citations are not formatted consistently. The interweaving of footnotes with references makes it difficult to tell when reading the article what statements are backed by references and which aren't, but I don't believe the FA criteria require the footnotes and references to be separated.
- Criteria 3: Images
- There are five fair-use images of the article. This may be considered excessive fair-use and should be reviewed.
Thank you for your attention. –Grondemar 00:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly I'd have to say this article doesn't currently meet the criteria for FA. Supporting 1c above, in fact there are a significant number of other assertions in the article that haven't been flagged for citation but should be. In the first section alone - "Football-themed stories were a staple of British comics from the 1950s onwards" (we know that's true, but ...) "In February 2007, it was announced that a group of fans had obtained the rights to reprint classic strips" "this arrangement came to an end soon afterwards" (raised on the discussion page, but nothing done about it).
Several of the links don't work (#32 for example leads to search results on Channel 4's website for 'Roy'). The plot section weaves in and out of fictional continuity, and once again is without many relevant citations.
Finally, and possibly most significantly, I'm not exactly sure what the article is supposed to be about. If it's about the strip 'Roy of the Rovers', then what is the 'regular features' section in there for? That would only be relevant if the article was about the comic 'Roy of the Rovers'; in which case that section would be relevant, but other sections of the article would not be. Sorry Archiveangel (talk) 11:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I did a little bit of work on this article waaaaaay back. To be honest I'm not sure the article can be easily brought up to what is now considered FA quality, due mainly to lack of easily-available sources. There's a new hardback book on the history of the character/comic that came out a while ago and would probably have plenty of good content, but I'm not going to buy it just to try and salvage the WP article....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be very sad to see this delisted less than two days before the start of the World Cup. I'd rather see it on the main page, if not on the opening day, then on final day. There are clearly problems with the article, but I don't see them as being particularly difficult to fix. Archiveangel pointed out above what is perhaps the article's greatest weakness, its muddy scope. I propose to be bold and fix that by creating a new article about the weekly comic, in which Roy was just one of the features, and often not the featured one. That will have the additional benefit of removing a large section of uncited text. The prose is a little bit breathless in places, and the citations do need to be checked, and probably added to, but I don't see any reason to give up on this too quickly, especially not now. Malleus Fatuorum 20:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Malleus Fatuorum has done some sterling work over the last few days and I think has come close to satisfactorily addressing all the points raised above - what do others think......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:41, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Much better now it's more focused, and that should make it easier to improve. But the article is still short of a lot of citations in critical places (first statement in the collected editions section for example), and, as discussed before, is currently in the 'primary sources' trap. I suspect it could be lifted a LOT further if Mick Collins book "Roy of the Rovers: The Unauthorised Biography" was absorbed and sourced. Wish I could help, but I don't have a copy, although it's easily found. The article still falls short, but I think we still need to be non-partisan and not lose sight of the yardstick measures because of the potential World Cup milestone. This could be a great article (it almost makes me wish I read the strip and was interested in football!), there's no rush. Cheers! Archiveangel (talk) 12:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with you that the sourcing and citations still leave quite a bit to be desired. I'm not so worried about the Plot section though; such sections are commonly very sparsely cited in literature articles, as the story is the source for itself. The glaring omission right now I think is the lack of some kind of Cultural impact (or similarly titled) section; I'll try and knock something up later. I'll see if I can get hold of a copy of Mick Collins's book as well. Malleus Fatuorum 12:46, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll have to bow to much more senior (in Wikipedia terms, not age :-) people on plot. It appears initially getting the plot into secondary or tertiary source is critical to the slow crawl up the scale, but, the better the article gets, the less the plot belongs - according to how things work; which I still have much trouble with as a concept - after all, what Roy did and when is probably as important to some as his historical/sociological importance, and the balance between an article which shows the historical background etc. and his 'history' may not work between what the searching public wants as compared to what the article requires under the rules. Put basically, if I look up 'Roy of the Rovers', its probably because I want to see what its about, a bit of the sociological background, but mostly what happened, why and when (both in-chronology and in real-life publishing).
- I agree with you that the sourcing and citations still leave quite a bit to be desired. I'm not so worried about the Plot section though; such sections are commonly very sparsely cited in literature articles, as the story is the source for itself. The glaring omission right now I think is the lack of some kind of Cultural impact (or similarly titled) section; I'll try and knock something up later. I'll see if I can get hold of a copy of Mick Collins's book as well. Malleus Fatuorum 12:46, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps a case of Wikipedia should supply what people want, not what Wikipedia thinks people should want, perhaps not. Possibly the usual problem of committee-based decisions, partly a defense against pure anarchy. However, as a result, you have to realise the drive to some sort of common ground rules, to avoid the anarchic mess that many articles are. The beauty is when it all drives in one direction and 'something happens' - just look at this article in such a short time. Despite all that, sometimes its just got to be worth putting a useful article up that's simply worthwhile because it hasn't been covered yet and should be, even if it can't get those benchmarks right now. Better something that can be worked on than nothing. Keep on keeping on Cheers! Archiveangel (talk) 15:52, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Linking: why is "helicopter" linked? And "retconn" is linked, but should we have to divert to learn what its basic meaning is? I see a spaced em dash. "Father and Son"—should S be used? "one-another" hyphenated? "struck towards goal" ... no "the", or is this in-house lingo? The prose generally needs improvement. Tony (talk) 14:51, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- well in theory everything linkable should be linked - the idea is think encyclopaedia: anything explained somewhere else should be linked to that article (mind you, taken to extreme that could just be madness). If there's an article about helicopters, link it, if there's one about retconn, link it. Assume nothing in the way of understanding (ever played the 'describe to someone alien how to wash your hands' game? Drives people mad, although it's lovely to see the light go when people get the insight to how people think). As for general grammatical or spelling errors, just change them. Nobody's offended. Ditto with general prose. Though sometimes it's best to wait until the article's thrashed out, instead of a constant bit here and bit there which may get lost in later changes. Cheers! Archiveangel (talk) 15:52, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Tony1's view, and one I agree with, is that only "high-value" links should be included, not everything that could possibly be linked. In the unlikely event that someone doesn't know what a helicopter is, they can easily find out simply by searching for it. The example Tony drew attention to before though, "retconn", is a case where a reader might reasonably want to know a little bit more about retroactive continuity, as a technique employed by the writers of the later strips. Malleus Fatuorum 17:04, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment – I remember reading this article a while back and feeling so concerned about its state that I seriously considered nominating it here myself. What has happened here is a more stunning turnaround than U.S.–Slovenia. A lot of great, great work has clearly been done. The citations in particular have really been improved. Most of the areas without them relate to the plot, and as Malleus says cites aren't strictly needed there. I did notice two remaining areas that could use references. First, the part in the second paragraph that says the monthly version had sluggish sales, and second, a paragraph in Spin-offs and merchandise (though I guess you could argue that shirts source themselves too). Overall, I'm not convinced that this one even needs to go to FARC. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 15:30, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The remark about the "sluggish sales" was really to do with Shoot magazine, not about the Roy of the Rovers comic strip, so I've removed it. The shirts is a problem though, because the only source is the web site where they can be bought. Malleus Fatuorum 22:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I believe that I've dealt with all of the issues that quite understandably led Grondemar to initiate this review. If there are any remaining issues, then I'll be happy to try and tackle them as well. Malleus Fatuorum 22:57, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that all of my concerns above have been addressed, except for a couple of places where I feel an additional citation would be helpful. I added [citation needed] tags to indicate the places. Excellent job fixing this article, and I will be happy to see it on the Main Page on the day of the World Cup final! –Grondemar 00:21, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed one tag, because isbns are given later in the article, but I'll try to address your other two tomorrow. Thanks for taking another look. Malleus Fatuorum 00:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Requested citations added. Malleus Fatuorum 17:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perfect, thanks! In my opinion we can go ahead and close without FARC. –Grondemar 17:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Excellent work User:Malleus Fatuorum - if I gave out barnstars, you'd definitely get one from me. :) BOZ (talk) 23:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perfect, thanks! In my opinion we can go ahead and close without FARC. –Grondemar 17:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that all of my concerns above have been addressed, except for a couple of places where I feel an additional citation would be helpful. I added [citation needed] tags to indicate the places. Excellent job fixing this article, and I will be happy to see it on the Main Page on the day of the World Cup final! –Grondemar 00:21, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:33, 30 June 2010 [5].
Review commentary
- Notified: User:AreJay, Progressive Rock, WikiProject Musicians, WikiProject Rock music, WikiProject Biography
I am nominating this featured article for review because of the sourcing problems in the article. There are parts of the article that have no references, with one section, "1978–1979: And Then There Were Three", not having any citations at all. GamerPro64 (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are sourcing. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:22, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - No comprehensive work has been done on this article since it was nominated. There are still large unsourced areas, including many quotes and statistics, as well as several dead links and in-text external links. Also, I'm concerned if the "high quality sources" criteria is being met, as quite a few web sites of dubious reliability and quality are being used over book- and journal-based sources such as this and this. Dana boomer (talk) 13:32, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - Per no problems were addressed in my review. GamerPro64 (talk) 13:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:33, 30 June 2010 [6].
Review commentary
I am nominating this featured article for review because this is a 2004 FA that had its last review in 2006 and currently tops the FA cleanup list. There are numerous (justified) citation needed tags, as well as other untagged areas that need references. These areas include opinions and statistics that should not be without references. There are also many deadlinks, including some that appear to have been linking to information that was only available online, meaning the sections of the article are now effectively unreferenced. There is also information that appears only tangentially related, such as the (uncited) paragraph on Swiss toilets at the end of the article. A few references need to be combined used the named reference feature (such as 26 and 32) to match the other references that used that feature, and there are a couple of dab links. Dana boomer (talk) 18:12, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are sourcing and focus. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - Only a pair of bot edits since I nominated the article at FAR. All of the issues I listed still need to be addressed. Dana boomer (talk) 01:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I decided to mention this here rather then the talk page. IMHO the article goes into a bit too much detail on the advantages and disadvantages of squat toilets. While some detail is obviously useful, considering squat toilets are hardly unique to Japan a lot of the info isn't either, it probably should be reduced and further summarised (moved to the primary article if it isn't already there) Nil Einne (talk) 23:10, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:09, 12 July 2010 [7].
Review commentary
- Notified: User talk:Lupo, User talk:Kils , User talk:Stemonitis, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fisheries and Fishing, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Arthropods.
FA from 2005, has some 1c issues throughout and wholly unsourced subsections, and some copyediting needs and some short paragraphs/sections. 9 total images used in the article, could use a pass through of an image review for those. Subsections: There are short subsections, consisting of only one sentence or paragraph or so. Short paragraphs: There are short paragraphs, consisting of only one or two paragraphs in length. Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 03:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Images reviewed. The only image which might be questionable as far as sourcing goes is File:Pleopods euphausia superba.jpg. This is only because it says the image is from User:Kils, but doesn't say whether he took the image himself or received it from another source. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 06:44, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The image was made by Uwe Kils, as stated on the image page. I noticed a couple of days ago that the source for this image had vanished. It appears that there was a purge of Kils' work at wikisource, and I cannot find it anymore in the logs. It was used here (deleted, too; but still partially visible in the Google cache (Google for "Kilsbiomass3.jpg")). Lupo 10:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No need to get upset as I was only stating what I perceived as a possible problem. Perhaps you can reword the text on that image page to make it more clear. I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on anyone. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 21:44, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not upset at all, just confused as to what happened with that image I had uploaded. Will add an {{information}} to that image. Lupo 21:52, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, that's good. I didn't want you to get upset when I wasn't trying to do that. Your solution sounds good. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 08:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not upset at all, just confused as to what happened with that image I had uploaded. Will add an {{information}} to that image. Lupo 21:52, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No need to get upset as I was only stating what I perceived as a possible problem. Perhaps you can reword the text on that image page to make it more clear. I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on anyone. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 21:44, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The image was made by Uwe Kils, as stated on the image page. I noticed a couple of days ago that the source for this image had vanished. It appears that there was a purge of Kils' work at wikisource, and I cannot find it anymore in the logs. It was used here (deleted, too; but still partially visible in the Google cache (Google for "Kilsbiomass3.jpg")). Lupo 10:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There were three unsourced paragraphs, to which I've now added some sources. Lupo 10:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Lupo, please feel free to ping the editor who nominated the article for FAR to return and add further comments. If several uninvolved editors agree that the article now meets FA standards, it can be kept without going through the FARC process. Another way to gain attention would be to ask for editors from related projects to come review the article, as well as asking editors who regularly write FAs in biology-related areas to come and comment. Dana boomer (talk) 01:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No objections to a "Keep" at this point in time. :) Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 01:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: - I have asked Ucucha (talk · contribs), Sasata (talk · contribs), Visionholder (talk · contribs) and Casliber (talk · contribs) to comment here, as they are the main biology editors active at FAC. I would like to get a "keep" opinion by at least one of them before closing this FAR without a FARC. Dana boomer (talk) 01:20, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fail – Comments: The article appears to need some work, particularly in regard to the lead. Below are my suggestions:
- The lead sentence seems mildly redundant and simple. "Krill is a shrimp-like marine invertebrate animal." The word "invertebrate" implies "animal". Furthermore, I personally like to pack in the most important identifying features into the lead sentence. The item "shrimp-like marine invertebrate" is an excellent start, but could its order (Euphausiacea) be included to give placement among the invertebrates? Since it's included in the 3rd sentence, maybe just merge the two sentences. After all, Euphausiacea is a redirect to this article.
- "important organisms" – "important" sounds like a peacock term. (It's also used in the 2nd paragraph of the lead.) Anyway, if the first sentence is merged with the second, I would advise the re-wording of the second sentence. I would recommend focusing on the role the organism plays (without the puffery) and condense of the list of organisms that rely on it. (The full list should be in the body anyway.)
- The second sentence of the second lead paragraph sounds overly convoluted.
- "roughly twice that of humans" – suggested: "roughly twice that of the entire human population."
- The second lead paragraph repeats a list of predators.
- The footnote does not have a formal citation, but uses an external link.
- Taxonomy: Has a phylogeny been established in the literature? If so, could one be provided? For an example, see Lemur#Taxonomic classification and phylogeny
- Is there really that little published about krill phylogeny? Any genetic work or controversy over classification?
- Is the linking of "55° S" and "74° S" examples of over-linking?
- The second paragraph of the "Behaviour" section seems redundant given the last sentence of the previous paragraph. Is is also very short and should probably be merged.
- Briefly explain "exuvia".
- "Krill are an important element of the food chain." → Suggested: "Krill play a key role in oceanic food chains."
- In the "Ecology and life history" section, the list of predators is short and does not cover what is listed in the lead. The full list should be moved here, along with an appropriate citation.
- In "Life history", the nauplius larval stage is not described, only listed.
- None of the information from the lead (uncited) about Euphausia superba, including its total biomass, is included the body.
- The okiami Japanese spelling and footnote should be in the body, not the lead.
- The commercial fishing information from the lead does not appear to be a summary and may include uncited information not covered in the body.
In short, there are a lot of problems with this article. The biggest problem is the lead, which in my opinion, needs to be completely rewritten. Also, information presently in the lead needs to be distributed and cited in the body. Aside from that, everything else seems minor. – VisionHolder « talk » 02:14, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Visionholder has brought up some valid concerns. I have struck out my prior comment saying this could be closed early. Instead, these issues should be addressed. In any event, this FAR page should not skip the FARC process. -- Cirt (talk) 02:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Work needed - comprehensiveness: Agree with Visionholder that it needs work, and htat the lead needs a rejig at the very minimum. More as I go. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It took me a minute or two to figure out what rank krill are - are we talking species/genus/family...of wait, order. This needs to be stated in the first sentence. I might have a tweak.
- The article doesn't tell me how many species there are - I wanted to add to the lead that there are X species divided into two families.
- Any fossil evidence?
- closest relatives among other crustaceans?
Overall need to sort out comprehensiveness issues before we start on copyediting, though I couldn't help but try to rejig the lead. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comprehensiveness issues I'm not familiar with the subject matter, but judging from the 3000+ hits for "krill" in the Web of Knowledge, there's a substantial body of research, and I doubt the article currently is a representative survey. Sasata (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is generally OK, but the prose does need some tidying up in places. In addition to the points already raised, I'd like to see the format of the sourcing made consistent. For instance, ref #27 has "Howard, D.", whereas ref #28 has "D. Howard". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malleus Fatuorum (talk • contribs)
- Comment. Visionholder, Casliber, Sasata, and Malleus Fatuorum make some good points, and I don't think this article is currently FA quality. Some further points:
- The "Distribution" section seems to mention some random (?) species and genera. For example, there is an entire paragraph on Antarctic krill, but, as far as I can see, nothing on the Indian Ocean. "Endemic or neritic restricted distributions" doesn't make sense to me.
- Is there nothing to be said on internal morphology?
- Some references seem unreliable or not of the quality expected in a biological article (i.e., peer-reviewed literature), like the Online Etymology Dictionary, conservation sites, or news sites.
- The ITIS reference is used to cite the paragraph that includes depth ranges for the two families, but does not contain that information.
Ucucha 06:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are quality of sourcing, citations and comprehensiveness YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per the problems mentioned above. Ucucha 06:07, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - Significant problem issues of note have been raised by multiple editors, above. -- Cirt (talk) 20:28, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per issues above. I sincerely hope someone works to bring it back. – VisionHolder « talk » 21:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist as it stands. The significant issues in comprehensiveness are too big to ignore. Hopefully someone will get stuck into it. Not my forte, but if someone familar with content gets stuck into it I can help out. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:03, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Featured article removal candidates
- Place the most recent review at the top. If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 23:05, 18 October 2010 [8].
Review commentary
- Notified: Jmcc150 and WikiProject Aviation
This article was promoted to FA in October 2006, and time has unfortunately done it no favors in terms of meeting the criteria. As so often happens here, referencing issues are the primary concern here:
- Numerous sections are lightly referenced or completely uncited; the last section in the article is but one example of the latter.
- The quality of the sources leaves something to be desired. I see at least one YouTube link (reference 28) and several personal pages (25, 39 and 41 among them).
- The citations are almost all lacking names of publishers, and this leaves me wondering how many other questionable sources there are.
- The link checker in the toolbox reveals about a dozen dead links, which is significant for an article with just over 50 total reference links.
Haven't reviewed the writing itself that closely, but the sourcing alone causes the article to fail modern FA criteria in my opinion. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep as a FA but update This review is a sledgehammer to fix a few referencing problems. There is no question about the content, format or language. These can be sorted out in a few days. The objection to a YouTube clip is curious feature of Wikipedia. Probably the best evidence that something is true is not a reference to a printed medium, but of a video of it actually happening. The degree of referencing is also something that is difficult to define. Is it sufficient to describe something in a paragraph with one reference that fully supports the contents of the paragraph? If there are little numbers against every sentence all to the same reference, is that better than one reference? Even so expect changes in the next few days, by which time the vote will not be relevant to the article as it then will be. JMcC (talk) 13:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep or delist are not declared in the FAR phase (see FAR instructions). This was not one of my better Supports at FAC: I was a newish reviewer then! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:44, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It is a longer job than I thought. My original estimate of just a few referencing problems was a little optimistic. However I am surrounded by books working my way through the sections bringing the references up to modern standards. JMcC (talk) 15:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I now need someone to point out where the references are still not good enough. JMcC (talk) 23:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If you'd like, I can leave cite tags in areas where referencing appears thin (let me know if this is exactly what you want, as a lot of editors don't like "tag-bombing"). The citing looks quite a bit better now, in volume and reliability, though there are a few formatting issues left over. For one, spaces between punctuation and references should be removed; I see several instances of that. In addition, I see some exposed code in the Thermals section (by reference 20) and in the details of reference 55. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. Additional citations have now been added as requested. It was a useful exercise. JMcC (talk) 10:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If you'd like, I can leave cite tags in areas where referencing appears thin (let me know if this is exactly what you want, as a lot of editors don't like "tag-bombing"). The citing looks quite a bit better now, in volume and reliability, though there are a few formatting issues left over. For one, spaces between punctuation and references should be removed; I see several instances of that. In addition, I see some exposed code in the Thermals section (by reference 20) and in the details of reference 55. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I ran through the top: quite a few copy-edits were required, and in one place the tone was like a tourist brochure's. There are causality glitches such as the "thus" in "Powered aircraft and winches are the two most common means of launching gliders. These and other methods (apart from self-launching motor-gliders) require assistance from other participants.[6] Gliding clubs have thus been established to share airfields and equipment, train new pilots and maintain high safety standards." I see others, too. One in the lead I fixed ("ensured" that there were 50 thousand pilots ... was that some kind of five-year plan?). I think the whole article needs a serious run-through. Probably savable; can it be spruced up to avoid going to FARC? PS Images: the "gull wing" needs to be bigger, don't you think? It's detail-dependent. Try 250px? The Scimitar could be a piece of cotton stuck on my screen. What does the pic illustrate? Some of the other images are good; could I put in a suggestion that the Ventus 2b be on the right, too, to avoid sandwiching the text? There's nothing wrong in principle with all-right-side pics, unless it becomes utterly tedious to the reader. Tony (talk) 12:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can pages be provided for the books that are used? YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:36, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Opening image: it's very dark. Can it be brightened and re-uploaded?
- Good gliding, then A Scimitar, images: why not both at the right: I suggest putting the syntax for both at the top, one after the other. This will optimise image positioning given that some users have HUGE wide windows, and others don't. Why not boost the size of both to 240px? Same for many of the others. Left–right looks messy.
- "Power stations"—why linked? Tony (talk) 04:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are citations, prose. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:36, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with a couple of comments above in that page numbers are needed for the book references, and that copy-editing would be helpful. Also, an image review from someone here would be nice, to ensure there are no problems there. A lot of work has been done already to improve the article, and these fixes/checks would go a long way toward seeing this remain featured. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:46, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Are page numbers really called for in style guidelines?? Unless the info being referenced is hidden in the middle of a page I feel that they would be superfluousPetebutt (talk) 17:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Page numbers are usually expected in inline citations. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:41, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Are page numbers really called for in style guidelines?? Unless the info being referenced is hidden in the middle of a page I feel that they would be superfluousPetebutt (talk) 17:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist. The article is rather awkwardly written in many places, and in parts (such as Learning to glide) reads like a promotional brochure. A few examples of problems with the prose:
- I have changed wording in each instance that has been cited. As I understand it the objective of a review is to ensure that Wikipedia has featured articles of the required standard. This can best be achieved by making modifications where there are weaknesses and then assessing the result. Clearly there can be hopeless cases, but there has been no indication that this article is beyond redemption. I would therefore query the validity of the "delist" opinion at this stage. As the promotional brochure in learning to glide, I would suspect that many people would not know how to begin or whether ordinary people rather than test pilots can do it. Surely the purpose of an encyclopaedia is to give information that people might find useful. I agree that gushing praise about the excitement, the wonderful views or the great club atmosphere would be out of place, but I can't see anything that fits that description. If there are other instances of excessive praise or poor wording, please give specific references. Those quoted so far have been most useful. It shows what a fresh "eye" can bring. More comments please. JMcC (talk) 20:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- People may find all sorts of information useful, such as contact details for their local gliding club, but our aim is to write an encyclopedia, not a how-to manual. My "delist" vote is not cast in stone; if the article is sufficiently improved I will be quite willing to reconsider it. Let me know when you think you're done, but bear in mind that I just gave a few examples of the the kind of thing I'm talking about. Malleus Fatuorum 22:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "During the war, civilian gliding in Europe was largely suspended. Although some military operations in WWII involved military gliders, they did not soar and so are unrelated to the sport of gliding." That doesn't really make sense. This article is about the sport of gliding; military operations during WWII were clearly not carried out for sport, which is is why they're unrelated to the sport. It's got nothing to do with whether or not WWII military gliders soared or not.
- Deleted the sentence
- "Gliding did not return to the Olympics after the war, for two reasons: first, the shortage of gliders following the war ...". Awkward repetition ("after the war ... following the war").
- Removed the second "following the war"
- "In many countries during the 1950s a large number of trained pilots wanted to continue flying. Many were also aeronautical engineers." And no doubt many were not aeronautical engineers. Why is this relevant?
- The war and cold war caused the training of many pilots compared with the 1930s, but gliding needs engineers to design, build, maintain and repair gliders. Sentence now expanded.
- "The increased numbers of pilots, greater knowledge and improving technology helped set new records, so that the pre-war altitude record was doubled by 1950 ...". What is that "so that" doing here?
- "so that" changed to "for example"
- "Instead of Olympic competition there are the World Gliding Championships ...". Many, if not all, Olympic sports also have world championships; the two are not alternatives.
- Changed wording
- "6,703 pilots worldwide have registered for this contest in 2010." A sentence ought not to start with a number.
- Changed wording
- "Soaring pioneer Paul MacCready is usually credited with developing a mathematical theory for optimizing the speed at which to fly when cross-country soaring ...". It isn't a theory, mathematical or otherwise. It's a principle.
- Changed
- "On cross-country flights where strong lift is forecast ...". Can a flight be in a particular location, as implied by "where"?
- changed "where" to "on days when"
- The airspeed and glide ratio of paragliders are generally lower still than the averages found in hang gliders ...". Why "averages" in the plural? How can there be more than one average?
- Two parameters can each have an average, nevertheless wording changed
- In which case it ought to have said the "airspeed and glide ratios". Malleus Fatuorum 22:07, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Malleus Fatuorum 14:04, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist: criterion three issues are numerous:- File:LS40075.jpg - "Copyright owner confirmed to me personally that permission had been granted to use this image" is not sufficent. To use it where? Does that include permission to alter it? Needs OTRS ticket.
- File:Bluesky2.jpg - Needs verifiable source per WP:IUP. (was Dwindrim just the uploader, or author as well?)
- File:RidgeSrn.gif - Who is "I"? Dhaluza?
- File:V20001.jpg - Needs verifiable source per WP:IUP. (Was Jmcc150 just the uploader, or author as well?)
- File:OL0026.jpg - How can we verify permission? Was the permission to use everywhere and to alter freely?
- File:SW0001.jpg - How can we verify permission? Was the permission to use everywhere and to alter freely?
File:Blanik 3 a.jpg - Needs a verifiable source.Эlcobbola talk 20:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Note these issues are resolved or re-entered in new comments below. Эlcobbola talk 16:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The seven issues will be addressed. I am on vacation and so it will take a little while. One reason for a short delay is that the five of the images were taken by someone who was hit and killed when taking more photos of gliders. I will try to persuade the estate to amend the now outdated permissions. JMcC (talk) 09:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "I" would normally refer to the signatory. What else could it possibly mean? Dhaluza (talk) 02:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - How is work going on this? It has been over a month since anything has been done to the article, and there are still unaddressed concerns listed above. Please feel free to ping Malleus, Elcobbola and the other reviewers when you feel you have addressed their concerns. Dana boomer (talk) 16:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. This has undoubtedly been improved but there's still a way to go. For instance, back in May, Tony1 drew attention to varous "causality glitches", such as the use of "thus" here, in the lead: "Powered-aircraft and winches are the two most common means of launching gliders. These and other methods (apart from self-launching motor-gliders) require assistance from other participants. Gliding clubs have thus been established to share airfields and equipment, train new pilots and maintain high safety standards."
- "The United States and Canada provide examples of this." Examples of what?
- "One of the measures of a glider's performance is the distance that it can fly for each meter it descends is expressed as its lift-to-drag ratio (L/D)." Doesn't make sense.
- "The glider and the pilot(s) can be retrieved from the outlanding location using a purpose-built trailer. Alternatively, if the glider has landed in a suitable place, a tow-plane can be summoned to re-launch the aircraft (as long as the property owner gives permission)." Still reads like a How-to manual in several places.
- The Aerobatics section isn't talking about aerobatics at all, but about aerobatics competitions.
- "Gliders, unlike hang gliders and paragliders, surround the pilot with a strong structure, so most accidents cause no injuries: but there are some hazards." Strange punctuation.
- "People over 193 cm (6’ 4’’) will also have problems." Why "also"? Who else will have problems?
- "The height gained from a winch is usually less than from an aerotow (about 1,700–2,000 feet) ...". The article has been using metric units elsewhere.
- "Each year many other people experience their first glider flight because many clubs actively seek new members and can generate income by giving trial flights." Another causality glitch.
After three months here, there just shouldn't be problems like these still in the article. Malleus Fatuorum 20:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Malleus Fatuorum 20:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have just returned from three weeks gliding in the Alps. All suggestions are gratefully received and I will make the suggested changes. The photo permissions are being addressed and replacement photos will be added tomorrow. JMcC (talk) 20:21, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep for now. I am seeing good improvements to the article. No additional comments about it. JJ98 (talk) 07:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. All suggestions now implemented. No further comments have been received for two weeks. JMcC (talk) 17:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - all but one of the previous issues were addressed, but new issues have been introduced:
- File:RidgeSrn.gif - "I" is not sufficient. See WP:IUP for what constituents acceptable sourcing. If Dhaluza indeed took it, as is presumably the case, change it to "Dhaluza took this picture" and the issue will be resolved. We can't rely on a self-license template. Note, also, that exporting this article (e.g. the "create a book" function) will export only "I took this photograph" with no mention of the uploader, thus breaking the required (GFCL/CC) attribution. This is why specificity matters.
- Contacted Dhaluza again. He did respond to confirm he was the "I" in question, see above, but he is an infrequent contributor. I have put a request on his user page, but look for an alternative.
- If Dhaluze has confirmed that he was the "I" in question, you can add this to the picture. Just link to the discussion in your edit summary. Dana boomer (talk) 11:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Contacted Dhaluza again. He did respond to confirm he was the "I" in question, see above, but he is an infrequent contributor. I have put a request on his user page, but look for an alternative.
- File:GoldenMedows.jpg - Needs a verifiable source per WP:IUP (it says uploaded by PiccoloNamek - did they also take the photo?)
- I have a replacement photo, but I left the camera in the glider yesterday. Will be replaced after next weekend.
- Image now replaced JMcC (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have a replacement photo, but I left the camera in the glider yesterday. Will be replaced after next weekend.
- File:Glider in flight.JPG - Needs a verifiable source. Uploader (Dtom) is not "Aero Club". How can we verify "Aero Club" has freely licensed this image?
- An OTRS confirmation was sought but no progress. I will source a replacement
- Image now replaced JMcC (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- An OTRS confirmation was sought but no progress. I will source a replacement
- File:RidgeSrn.gif - "I" is not sufficient. See WP:IUP for what constituents acceptable sourcing. If Dhaluza indeed took it, as is presumably the case, change it to "Dhaluza took this picture" and the issue will be resolved. We can't rely on a self-license template. Note, also, that exporting this article (e.g. the "create a book" function) will export only "I took this photograph" with no mention of the uploader, thus breaking the required (GFCL/CC) attribution. This is why specificity matters.
JMcC (talk) 11:07, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Bungylaunch1.jpg - Unclear sourcing. Is Jmcc150 the same person as Jon Hall? If not, how can we verify permission from Jon Hall?
- I will have another go at this one. Vacations are not a good time for contacting people quickly. (Later note: old e-mail address was used on first attempt)
- File:3 diamenty.jpg - Derivative work. What is the copyright status of the badge?
- The gull logo that is used by most national gliding associations was devised in the 1920s by a German called Fritz Stamer. It never appears with a copyright, registered or trademark symbol and there is no evidence that it ever was copyrighted, though proving a negative is always difficult. For example it appears in the Soaring Society of America web site, on the German gliding organisation's web site and on the Australian site. The International Gliding Commission of the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale has its own logo and does not issue the physical badges. As far as I can see no-one owns the copyright for the logo. I believe the rules fair use and public domain cover this. A request on the Media Copyright questions page went unanswered.
- File:CAP L-23 N381BA.jpg - Source is a direct link to the image. Where can we verify federal authorship? Эlcobbola talk 16:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image replaced
- File:Bungylaunch1.jpg - Unclear sourcing. Is Jmcc150 the same person as Jon Hall? If not, how can we verify permission from Jon Hall?
- Keep, if the above image issues are addressed. Malleus Fatuorum 16:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Light at the end of the tunnel! Messages have been sent out today to all the uploaders of the images queried by User:Эlcobbola to clarify the status of these images. Many were in Commons and so I thought they were safe, but even then there are pitfalls. JMcC (talk) 12:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding File:CAP L-23 N381BA.jpg, I can only comment that the license should be correct, in that it was taken by a Civil Air Patrol member in the course of the course of their duties. I uploaded it and feel confident that the license is correct, but if it is felt this is not good enough, then remove it from the article and request deletion on Commons. — Huntster (t @ c) 22:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Pity. Photo replaced, though if you can get clearer permission, it will be re-instated. JMcC (talk) 09:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding File:CAP L-23 N381BA.jpg, I can only comment that the license should be correct, in that it was taken by a Civil Air Patrol member in the course of the course of their duties. I uploaded it and feel confident that the license is correct, but if it is felt this is not good enough, then remove it from the article and request deletion on Commons. — Huntster (t @ c) 22:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Light at the end of the tunnel! Messages have been sent out today to all the uploaders of the images queried by User:Эlcobbola to clarify the status of these images. Many were in Commons and so I thought they were safe, but even then there are pitfalls. JMcC (talk) 12:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - How is work going on this? It has been 10 days since anything happened on the article. The image issues need to be addressed, and then the article can be kept as an FA. Dana boomer (talk) 14:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have put a status report against each photo in question. If there are no replies in the next two weeks, and I have not found replacements, then I suggest that this article's FA status is removed. I would prefer this to losing some of these photos. JMcC (talk) 10:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks above like you will be able to replace or source most of them. Is there any particular one that you are so against losing that you would rather see the article's FA status removed? Also, please see my comment on the Dhaluza image above. Dana boomer (talk) 11:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have put a status report against each photo in question. If there are no replies in the next two weeks, and I have not found replacements, then I suggest that this article's FA status is removed. I would prefer this to losing some of these photos. JMcC (talk) 10:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. Lede/intro does not conform to WP:LEAD, does not adequately stand-alone as a summary of the entire article's contents. Lede/intro is also choppy, and consists of short-paragraphs and one-sentence-long-paragraphs. There are one-sentence-long-paragraphs and short-paragraphs and quite short subsections throughout the article - these should either be merged or expanded. Subsections Challenges for the gliding movement and Related air sports could both be significant expanded quite a bit, especially to deal with issues of comprehensiveness for an FA. Relevant portals could be added to See also sect, and perhaps this could be split into two columns, for style formatting. -- Cirt (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This is never ending. There are two OTRS permissions due on two images, which should appear shortly. Otherwise I have met all previous suggestions. I am not going to spend any more time on this, especially to meet the latest points. Delist if you want. JMcC (talk) 18:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps you could ask Cirt what he thinks needs to be included in the two sections he mentions to make the article comprehensive? The rest of the things are easily done, and should not discourage you from working to help this article be kept as a FA. Dana boomer (talk) 10:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't know about the expansion, but I've copyedited or combined all one-sentence paragraphs. I also removed a broken reference (just empty braces) and a couple other very minor fixes. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 18:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps you could ask Cirt what he thinks needs to be included in the two sections he mentions to make the article comprehensive? The rest of the things are easily done, and should not discourage you from working to help this article be kept as a FA. Dana boomer (talk) 10:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This is never ending. There are two OTRS permissions due on two images, which should appear shortly. Otherwise I have met all previous suggestions. I am not going to spend any more time on this, especially to meet the latest points. Delist if you want. JMcC (talk) 18:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Challenges for the gliding movement only uses one source. It is formatted as a bullet list. This just seems rather unprofessional for an article purportedly of FA quality. Related air sports could incorporate much more material from the articles and topics it glosses over and links to - it only uses three sources to speak rather broadly about a wide array of areas. -- Cirt (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK I have expanded the intro to cover more of the whole article. The challenges section needs still some work to track down every reference needed. I am beginning to regret adding this section five years ago! As the treasurer of a gliding club I can see the challenges and trends but concrete references are harder. I would query the need to include more material from related air sports. The article is about gliding not hang gliding or paragliding. However I have provided a better link to a detailed comparison of gliders with hang gliders and paragliders. JMcC (talk) 23:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please bear with me. I have the British Gliding Association digging out material for references on the challenges section. JMcC (talk) 14:35, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK I have expanded the intro to cover more of the whole article. The challenges section needs still some work to track down every reference needed. I am beginning to regret adding this section five years ago! As the treasurer of a gliding club I can see the challenges and trends but concrete references are harder. I would query the need to include more material from related air sports. The article is about gliding not hang gliding or paragliding. However I have provided a better link to a detailed comparison of gliders with hang gliders and paragliders. JMcC (talk) 23:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutral, leaning towards Keep' - once the image issues above have been resolved, I do not see problems with the prose which warrant delisting, although improvements could be made. Jan 1922 (talk) 09:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. As far as I can see I just have the bungee launch photo to sort out, but let me know if there are other problems. Second attempt just made to contact the photographer. He may have deleted previous request as spam. If no luck in a few days, I will put out a call for other pictures on the UK newsgroup. JMcC (talk) 14:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment How this going? Any progress on the images? There are two dead links in the article that needs to be fixed. JJ98 (Talk) 07:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said in the posting above, as far as I can see I just have the copyright on the bungee launch photo to sort out. Which are the two dead links? Is there an easy way to detect them? JMcC (talk) 10:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a toolbox at the top of this review page (the specific subpage that the Gliding review is on). One of the links says "external links". Click on this and it will run an analysis of all external links in the article and tell you which ones are dead. Dana boomer (talk) 02:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said in the posting above, as far as I can see I just have the copyright on the bungee launch photo to sort out. Which are the two dead links? Is there an easy way to detect them? JMcC (talk) 10:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Almost all problems have been resolved. I believed it is time to close this FA Review. I believe that JMcC can address few remaining problems later. Ruslik_Zero 16:48, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I worked on a bit of copyediting earlier in the week, and now cannot really find any outstanding issues to address - which tells me that this very, very long review (Gliding went to FARC in June!) has resulted in a much better article that seems to meet the FA criteria. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 00:08, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional closing note: This article has been at FAR for over four months, and there is no consensus to delist (there is actually a consensus to keep, with a few minor outstanding details). If the dissenting editors feel that the issues warrant further action, the discussion can be carried to the talk page. If the issues are not fixed and are felt to be severe enough, the article can be brought back to FAR in a minimum of three months. Dana boomer (talk) 23:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was kept by Dana boomer 02:22, 23 June 2010 [9].
Review commentary
- Notified: Australia notice board, WP Canberra, WP Cities, User talk:Arno, User talk:PDH, User talk:YellowMonkey. -- Cirt (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC) [reply]
FA from 2005, the article has 1c issues throughout the page. It could use a bit of copyediting to address flow, and also problems of short paragraphs scattered in the article. There are twenty-seven images used in this article - these could use an image review for each. It probably might make some sense to trim some of these images to not have so many included on the page. -- Cirt (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments:
there are a few citation needed tags;in the Urban Structure section there are a number of paragraphs without a citation at all;some of the citations are just bare url chains which should be formatted;some of the web citations are lacking access dates;citation # 55 is a dead link;the headings in the References section should be capitalised per Wikipedia:MOSCAPS#Composition titles.— AustralianRupert (talk) 09:01, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]- All of these comments have been addressed. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Yellowmonkey has asked that I comment on this article. I think that it's in very good shape, and my only comments are:
- It's over-stating things a bit to say that the "federal government moved to Canberra on 9 May 1927" - although the parliament moved to Canberra at this time, most government departments remained in Melbourne until well after World War II, with some departments not completing their move to Canberra until the 1980s! (this is identified in the next para)\
- It should be noted that only a relatively small part of modern Canberra was designed by Burley Griffin - statements such as "Canberra is a planned city that was originally designed by Walter Burley Griffin, a major 20th century American architect" overstate his influence on the city's overall layout
- Need to change it so mean the inner-city centre, as the recent sprawl has nothing to do with him. Good catch YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There was way too much information about Canberra's railroad history, which is a subject of little importance to the city given that it's never had more than a single train station and some temporary lines built only to move construction material around - I've trimmed this Nick-D (talk) 04:13, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
Featured article criteria of concern brought up in the FAR section include referencing, reference formatting, copyediting and image concerns. Dana boomer (talk) 20:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: Refs done, copyedited, history and urban structure expanded and some other bits. Lead expanded YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Significant improvements done to article to address issues. Good work overall. -- Cirt (talk) 08:03, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep FA criteria are now met Nick-D (talk) 08:14, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep All my concerns have been addressed. Well done, YM. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:31, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Looks like a lot of good work's been done on this since its nomination. Malleus Fatuorum 14:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was kept by Dana boomer 17:29, 29 June 2010 [10].
Review commentary
- Notified: Shreshth91, Rama's Arrow (not notified as no longer active and cannot edit talk page), WikiProject India, WikiProject Politics
I am nominating this featured article for review because of the following concerns.
Use of primary sources. The vast majority of footnotes in the article send us to primary sources, mainly provisions of the Indian Constitution or amending legislation. Plainly, these are primary sources. Per WP:PRIMARY:
- (1) "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources". "Primary sources are permitted if used carefully", but should not form the basis of an article's sourcing.
- (2) "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors".
Number (2) is the real problem here. The way that the article uses the primary sources involves analysis, interpretation and synthesis. One example:
The ten Fundamental Duties—given in Article 51-A of the constitution—can be classified as either duties towards self, duties concerning the environment, duties towards the State and duties towards the nation.
This statement is sourced to Constitution of India-Part IVA Fundamental Duties. Other than being a dead link (the Indian Constitution is downloadable here), the source is obviously a set of Constitutional provisions that make up Part IVA of the Constitution. The claim that the duties listed in Article 51-A can be classified into categories is obviously original research. Article 51-A certainly doesn't categorise the duties that it confers in the way that the article says. This kind of analysis requires a secondary source. This is one example among 60 or so instances of the use of primary sources.
Quality of sources. Other than the issues raised above, some of the secondary sources used are of questionable quality. Footnote 43 takes us to a secondary school textbook and another secondary school text is cited in the "References" section.
Comprehensiveness of use of literature. The article does not appear to use the full range of secondary source material that could be used for the article. I would have thought that this book, which has a large chapter on fundamental rights, would be a useful source. As would this chapter (admittedly written after this article was an FAC).
Verifiability. Some parts of the article hang out without any sourcing at all, and they do not appear to be uncontroversial statements, eg:
- When a national or state emergency is declared, this right [to constitutional remedies] is suspended by the central government. How? Do they have a legal basis to suspend the right, and if so, where is that basis provided?
- Efforts to implement the Directive Principles include the Programme for the Universalisation of Elementary Education and the Five-Year Plans have accorded the highest priority in order to provide free education to all children up to the age of 14.
- A ruling by the Supreme Court on 15 December 1995 upheld the validity of such awards [honorary titles].
- This entire paragraph: These include individual rights common to most liberal democracies, incorporated in the fundamental law of the land and are enforceable in a court of law. Violations of these rights result in punishments as prescribed in the Indian Penal Code, subject to discretion of the judiciary. These rights are neither absolute nor immune from constitutional amendments. They have been aimed at overturning the inequalities of pre-independence social practises. Specifically, they resulted in abolishment of untouchability and prohibit discrimination on the grounds of religion, race, caste, sex, or place of birth. They forbid human trafficking and unfree labour. They protect cultural and educational rights of ethnic and religious minorities by allowing them to preserve their languages and administer their own educational institutions.
--Mkativerata (talk) 20:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for pointing out these concerns. I've added two reliable secondary sources to the list of references, and removed the textbooks as well as a circular reference to Wikipedia. I'll continue weeding out unreliable sources and try and replace most of the over-reliance on primary sources with citations to secondary sources. Specific responses to other concerns will be posted here as they are addressed. (BTW, the broken ink is the result of a typo - the page is viewable here.) Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 17:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - There are two dabs and two dead links in the article. GamerPro64 (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are sourcing and original research. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:38, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All concerns specifically mentioned above have been addressed. Please point out any further changes required to be made to the article, and any concerns that remain. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 16:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the note - now that you've finished this (enormous) piece of work I'll go through it over the next few days. It would be fantastic if this is a save. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All concerns specifically mentioned above have been addressed. Please point out any further changes required to be made to the article, and any concerns that remain. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 16:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Obviously the concerns above have been addressed by an almost total re-write of the article which deserves a massive shiny barnstar. I have only one lingering concern which is whether the full range of possible sources have been used - the article now relies almost entirely on three books by two authors. I would appreciate any input from others on the extent to which this remains an issue, as I'm well aware that comprehensive use of literature is an important FA criteria. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The issues that prompted this FAR have been addressed, and I think the article now meets the FA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 14:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:33, 30 June 2010 [11].
Review commentary
- Notified: WP Vancouver, WP Canada, WP Trains, User talk:Emarsee
Also notifed User:ThePointblank, as they did some work on the article after a talk page notification several weeks ago. Dana boomer (talk) 15:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is the highest listing on Wikipedia:Featured articles/Cleanup listing. Tags indicate dead links and unsourced statements dating from November and December 2009.
- Intro needs a slight rewrite. It shouldn't begin with a two-sentence paragraph.
- "The Canada Line's trains are fully automated, but are of a different design than the existing lines' Bombardier-built fleet, and use conventional electric motors rather than Bombardier's linear induction technology." — unsourced
- "Recently, the entire surveillance system..." — when?
- Entire "Security" and "Design" sections need copy edit; short paragraphs abound.
- History section has some [citation needed] tags.
- Controversy section should probably be renamed, but I can't think of a more neutral name. Aren't we supposed to be avoiding the word "controversy"?
- "ICTS Mark I fleet" section is almost entirely unsourced.
- "Bombardier Mark II train fleet" section and "Canada Line train fleet" sections are largely unsourced as well.
- Wildbot shows two links to broken #sections.
- Very large number of dead links.
I do not feel that a reversion to the way the article looked at its FA promotion will fix most of the problems, as there are still issues with unsourced content, two-sentence paragraphs and several now-dead references. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 11:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please notify relevant users and projects. Dana boomer (talk) 11:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 11:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- They should be listed at the top of the FAR, with links to the talk pages, so that others can verify notifications. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for making the notifications TPH. I just realized that I saw and commented on the FAR less than five minutes after you posted it, before the notifications appeared in your contributions. Dana boomer (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- They should be listed at the top of the FAR, with links to the talk pages, so that others can verify notifications. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 11:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please note two things: dead links are not a reason for delisting (there is a guideline for how to handle dead links), and many FAs were improperly tagged by Mattisse. You should specifically list the problems and check the tags, as they aren't always correct. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I pointed out two whole sections that have only one source for the entire section. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 13:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it controversial information that actually needs a cite, however? Even FAs don't need to have every sentence referenced - just "where appropriate" according to WP:WIAFA. Perhaps you should read Wikipedia:When to cite, which is the page linked from WIAFA that details the necessary spots for referencing. Dana boomer (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, here are a couple sections I have specific issues with:
- "With the recent fleet expansion of 48 cars to accommodate ridership growth SkyTrain has reconfigured most of the Mark II’s (new and old) into 4-car trains to provide more capacity with the same number of trains (55) at the same headway (108 sec.). With plans for an additional 24 cars at some point (subject to TransLink’s funding capacity), SkyTrain plans to likely further increase the number of 6-car Mark I’s in the overall ripple effect of maximizing the number of cars in service and overall service to SkyTrain passengers." — When is "recent?" "plans to likely further increase" is an awkward split infinitive. "Ripple effect" sentence seems like it needs a cite.
- "There had been plans as early as the 1950s to build a monorail system, with modernist architect Wells Coates pencilled in to design it; that project was abandoned." — existing [citation needed] tag from before I touched the article; this one seems like it does need a citation
- "This seat is popular with rail enthusiasts." — Is this even needed?
- "The system however caused passenger confusion as well as extensive train delays." — Not cited, should be.
I'm sure I'll dig up more. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 14:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - to be blunt, not every single sentence needs a citation. More amount of time was spent adding {{fact}} templates to the article than simple removing one or two words to fix the problem. I've looked over the nominators history of FAR and disagree with many of the reasons he chooses including some of the trivial ones here. It also appears that unnecessary excuses are being made to demote this article. Honestly, putting {{when}}, instead of removing the word 'recent' and looking at the very citation for that sentence and putting in the date, that was actually included in the citation template is really, counterproductive in terms of the work it takes to do that there and the come here and report the entire sentence in a quote. The article is informative and well researched. Mkdwtalk 05:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This isn't the part where you say "keep"/"delist"/etc. That would be if and when this is moved to FARC. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 16:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If editors feel that the article should be kept, however, they are free to express that here. If a strong consensus is gained that includes uninvolved editors, the article may be kept before moving to FARC. It is true that keep/delist "votes" shouldn't be made in this section, but there is a very thin line between saying "keep" and giving a reason (as above) and saying "This article meets FA criteria and doesn't need to be moved to the FARC section" and that line is occasionally crossed by users inexperienced with FAR/FARC (and is not really a big deal if it is crossed occasionally). Dana boomer (talk) 15:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern is sourcing YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - nothing going on at the moment, needs more citations. Tom B (talk) 23:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Dana boomer 23:13, 6 July 2010 [12].
Review commentary
- Notified: WikiProjects
- Please provide links to the talk pages of notifications. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- For info: original FAC nominator inactive on WP since August 2007. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- notice at WikiProject Gujarat left by Yellowmonkey, 5 May 2010.
- notice at WikiProject Indian politics left by Yellowmonkey, 5 May 2010.
- notice at WikiProject Politics left by Yellowmonkey, 5 May 2010.
- There may be other notices; these were ones I found on a quick check. Looks like no-one has shown much interest. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please provide links to the talk pages of notifications. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article has some unsourced sections, in particular the Legacy section, and the integration section where some subjective statements and attributions are not cited. Rediff is not a reliable source. This article is not "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic"; about 85% of the article is sourced to Gandhi's grandson; Gandhi was Sardar Patel's main ally and people would be raising eyebrows if Cheney's son was the main source of an article on GWB. Apart from this, there are many dozens of books on Patel (see google books, for instance) YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are sourcing YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. Not in the ballpark, per YellowMonkey's original concerns. Hagiographic in places, and a major section "Criticism and legacy" is essentially unreferenced. Wouldn't even make it at GA. Must be reconstructed with significant reliance on scholarly histories of India, as well as biogrpahical sources on SVP. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist No significant work done to address concerns. A huge pity... --mav (reviews needed) 13:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was removed by Dana boomer 16:44, 3 August 2010 [13].
Review commentary
- Notified:Listed WikiProjects and nom
This article is at the top of Wikipedia:Featured articles/Cleanup listing. Unsourced portions and citation tags throughout YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:12, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This article's problems are generally minor and mostly amount to fleshing out specific citations to the 9/11 Commission report where needed. The article has not substantially degraded from the version which passed the last FAR, and only one significant new piece of information seems to have arisen, which has been more or less appropriately integrated. I did not notice any cleanup tags besides the citation requests. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are sourcing YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Over the next couple days I will clean up the remaining three citation requests...if there are other points at which you feel the sourcing is inadequate, please add tags. Although I don't know that these is a lot of value to tagging further sentences as being sourced to the 9/11 commission report. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:11, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Hi Yellow, the nominator and main contributor, weren't notified when this was posted at FAR Tom B (talk) 13:15, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Tom, the nominator was notified, see User_talk:Quadell#FAR_for_Ziad_Jarrah, just a few spots above your notification. It looks like you are correct about the main contributor not being notified - thank you for doing this at User talk:Sherurcij. Dana boomer (talk) 16:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- FYI, I am still looking at this and currently it is waiting on getting access to the McDermott text listed under further reading. If there are other citation issues people would like addressed besides the two currently tagged, please bring them up. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK - although I think this is pretty salvagable from a sourcing perspective, I don't have the time at the moment, so this can probably be delisted. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:14, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Several paragraphs still left uncited or at least lacking page numbers. --mav (reviews needed) 13:51, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist: criterion three issues are numerous:
- File:Ziad Jarrah.jpg - Appearance on a .gov site does not mean it was authored by the federal government. How can authorship be established?
- File:Jarrah-2000-Flying-Florida.jpg - Needs source per WP:IUP/NFCC#6/NFCC#10A; needs to credit author and copyright holder (NFCC#10A), needs a rationale (NFCC#10C), what is the significant contribution? (NFCC#8)
- File:May212000StudentVisa-Jarrah.jpg - Visa's are not issued by the FBI; license needs to be updated accordingly.
- File:ZiadLetter1.jpg, File:ZiadLetter2.jpg, File:ZiadLetter3.jpg and File:ZiadLetter4.jpg - These are not authored by the US government; such a license tag is utter nonsense. Need verifiable sources.
- File:Ziad Jarrah Passport Photo.jpg - Needs a verifiable source. Эlcobbola talk 20:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per Эlcobbola, although none of the issues are unfixable in the space of a couple of days Fasach Nua (talk) 17:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional closing note - This was mainly closed due to the main editor not having time to work on it and asking for it to be delisted. It appears to be not far from FA status, and so can be brought back to FAC as soon as the above issues have been fixed, if the main editor so wishes. Dana boomer (talk) 16:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 23:09, 20 August 2010 [14].
Review commentary
- WP Video games, WP Nintendo and User talk:Pagrashtak notified
- I can't find the WP Video games notification-- where is it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Now archived at [15] Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 17:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't find the WP Video games notification-- where is it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think it passes 1c without no refs in the entire Plot and Synopsis sections. I don't see the need of the second paragraph of Settings and I think is too long.
- Image File:Zora.JPG is not really needed, Link with a mask on it would be better. Also the size is fine but the resolution could be better.
- The text is choppy in some places.
- I don't think it is needed to describe Termina full-detailed. In other Zelda articles there's not such a thing.
- Ref 38 url goes to Famitsu.com, not the actual site, and does not say the number of the publication.
- Not all refs say Retrieved on...
- There are links in this article with broken #section.
- I will add citation needed.
I think other articles in the series are much better. OboeCrack (talk) 13:55, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just a note about the plot; plot sections can usually be sourced to the work itself. Many GAs and FAs don't use footnotes in the plot section since it's implied that the work itself is being used as the source for the plot. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 17:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Remove- Large quantities of the Synopsis and Gameplay are un-sourced. Somebody might can look at old revisions to see if some references were removed, that can be reused. Although, all the revisions where it was premoted/reviewed, there were no sources for that content. So I doubt it exists. Unless those sections get rewritten and sourced, I don't think it is good enough for GA, let alone FA. Blake (Talk·Edits) 18:24, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- As TenPoundHammer points out, generally in articles like this it is assumed that the work itself is being cited, so that's why there are no citations (it would be different if we were talking about Majora's Mask in another article, for example.) Quality of images is not an issue for FA status; whether that image meets WP:NFCC is. If you're going to delist on prose, you're going to have to point out actionable examples. Really, this could have been done on the talk page, but... *sigh* This isn't an up-or-down vote, the point is to improve articles before carting them here and/or delisting them. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't see that. The review was posted on the wrong page, so I commented where the link on the talkpage took me. I guess I agree. The plot and maybe gameplay can be sourced by the actual game. I remove my vote, which is apparently not how FAR's work. If it does get improved with the comments posted here(such as the Famitsu link), then I guess it is fine. Blake (Talk·Edits) 18:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do agree with the nominator that FAs are supposed to be Wikipedia's best content, and this doesn't really seem like we gave it our all. Blake (Talk·Edits) 18:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As TenPoundHammer points out, generally in articles like this it is assumed that the work itself is being cited, so that's why there are no citations (it would be different if we were talking about Majora's Mask in another article, for example.) Quality of images is not an issue for FA status; whether that image meets WP:NFCC is. If you're going to delist on prose, you're going to have to point out actionable examples. Really, this could have been done on the talk page, but... *sigh* This isn't an up-or-down vote, the point is to improve articles before carting them here and/or delisting them. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The [citation needed]s are of concern, and I see a few two-sentence paragraphs. Also I'm concerned about comprehensiveness, since about half the refs are from IGN. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 23:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you give me something actionable on the comprehensive comment? What specifically is missing from this article that makes it not comprehensive? 1(b) says nothing about having too many references from one publisher. Pagrashtak 15:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If anything, it really just needs a stiff copyedit after some expansion. I think given the amount of time that has passed we can find more content about its development and reception. The synopsis section could also probably be tightened, I'll try to get to it when I can. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 12:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've started trimming the synopsis section. It needs to be more accessible to non-players; I think moving the gameplay section before it might make more sense, what do others think? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 20:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering most games have the gameplay section before the plot, I agree. Blake (Talk·Edits) 21:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've started trimming the synopsis section. It needs to be more accessible to non-players; I think moving the gameplay section before it might make more sense, what do others think? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 20:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've put some work in, mostly to references and links. I'll work on the other problems as I have time. If there are any more ref issues, let me know or mark them and I'll see what I can do. What was the problem with Zora.JPG exactly? Pagrashtak 02:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are prose, comprehensiveness, sourcing YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:36, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - per this comment, David does not have the time to work further on this article at this time. Dana boomer (talk) 16:56, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold Pagrashtak has put some work into the article since then. I'll ping David. --mav (reviews needed) 13:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not really going to have time to take a detailed look at this until later in the week (holidays and travel.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:19, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per criterion three:- File:ZeldaMMbox.jpg - Needs a source (WP:IUP/NFCC#6/NFCC#10A), needs a specific and detailed rationale (NFCC#10C/WP:FURG)
File:Majora's Mask image.png - Same as above.Эlcobbola talk 12:39, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I guess I've been away too long. ZeldaMMbox.jpg looks like it has both a source and rationale. Can you be more specific about what is lacking? Pagrashtak 20:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what's unclear. To use File:ZeldaMMbox.jpg as an example: It needs a source. The only non-rationale text is "The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask boxcover. Copyright Nintendo, 2000", which is a description of the image - not a source. Who took the photo? What website is it from? See WP:IUP/NFCC#6/NFCC#10A. It needs a "specific and detailed rationale" - not just a rationale. "It is used to represent a well known and significant video game" is neither detailed nor specific. Represent what aspect(s)? Why is that representation important? (I'm not saying it isn't; I'm saying it needs to be articulated). Эlcobbola talk 19:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The source is Nintendo (as stated), who holds the copyright from its publication in 2000. Does it matter if I got it directly from one of Nintendo's websites or from Amazon? That doesn't have any impact on the copyright status. I revised the rationale on the first image. If it's acceptable I'll do the second. Pagrashtak 05:52, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Went ahead and redid the second image as well. I don't know who took the screenshot, but it should be a moot point as the copyright is held by Nintendo regardless. Please let me know how the rationales stand. Pagrashtak 04:29, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a moot point - the source of an image is very important. If you can't find the source, then remove the image and take a shot yourself or similar.Ryan Norton 01:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I never said the source of an image isn't important, please don't put words in my mouth. This image has been removed from the article. Pagrashtak 01:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, "Nintendo" is not a verifiable source - it's a publisher. It's akin to using "Weblogs, Inc." instead of "Fletcher, JC (2009-04-07). "VC/WiiWare Tuesday: Majora's Mask arrives in another region". www.joystiq.com. Weblogs, Inc."; the former would not be acceptable. The source does more than confirm copyright status; it allows a non-"expert" reader to verify the authorship information provided, to verify provenience (e.g. that it's the cover used in a given market, not a fan interpretation), etc. To that end, any verifiable source that accomplishes that (e.g. an Amazon product page) would be sufficient. Эlcobbola talk 12:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To be fair, Nintendo is more than just the publisher in this case. Per my comment to Ryan Norton below, the Image use policy (by use of the word "or") seems to indicate that giving the copyright holder is sufficient. In any event, I have added a link to allow the reader to verify the authenticity of the image. Do you have a response to the image use policy regarding screenshots? The policy regarding source says "For screenshots this means what the image is a screenshot of", which the removed screenshot states clearly. I feel like you're asking for more than is required by policy. Pagrashtak 15:48, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The last edit is from 21. July. Where is the link? The relevant part of policy is the requirement: "Always specify on the description page where the image came from (the source) and information on how this could be verified". The "or" verbiage is in regards to the summary, which is a different element; note that even that section says "provide specific details about the image's origin". For what it's worth, WP:IUP is indeed terribly written; this, I think, is a more accessible distillation. Эlcobbola talk 10:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good question, I must have not saved. It's there now. Pagrashtak 21:28, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, image issues resolved. Эlcobbola talk 21:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good question, I must have not saved. It's there now. Pagrashtak 21:28, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The last edit is from 21. July. Where is the link? The relevant part of policy is the requirement: "Always specify on the description page where the image came from (the source) and information on how this could be verified". The "or" verbiage is in regards to the summary, which is a different element; note that even that section says "provide specific details about the image's origin". For what it's worth, WP:IUP is indeed terribly written; this, I think, is a more accessible distillation. Эlcobbola talk 10:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To be fair, Nintendo is more than just the publisher in this case. Per my comment to Ryan Norton below, the Image use policy (by use of the word "or") seems to indicate that giving the copyright holder is sufficient. In any event, I have added a link to allow the reader to verify the authenticity of the image. Do you have a response to the image use policy regarding screenshots? The policy regarding source says "For screenshots this means what the image is a screenshot of", which the removed screenshot states clearly. I feel like you're asking for more than is required by policy. Pagrashtak 15:48, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what's unclear. To use File:ZeldaMMbox.jpg as an example: It needs a source. The only non-rationale text is "The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask boxcover. Copyright Nintendo, 2000", which is a description of the image - not a source. Who took the photo? What website is it from? See WP:IUP/NFCC#6/NFCC#10A. It needs a "specific and detailed rationale" - not just a rationale. "It is used to represent a well known and significant video game" is neither detailed nor specific. Represent what aspect(s)? Why is that representation important? (I'm not saying it isn't; I'm saying it needs to be articulated). Эlcobbola talk 19:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The general policy is a bit messy. Wikipedia:Non-free_content in particular WP:NFCC#10A has the more correct version however. "Identification of the source of the material supplemented, where possible, with information about the artist, publisher and copyright holder" The real problem is the "source" explanation at WP:IUP can be a bit misleading. Ryan Norton 09:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - How is work going on this? It looks like not much has really been happening on the article... Feel free to ping the reviewers who have commented above when you feel you have addressed their concerns. As one of the two oldest nominations on this page, this should be progressing! Dana boomer (talk) 16:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment -
There appears to be some confusion on the work vs. publisher on a lot of the refs (I made an edit as an example - all the GameSpot ones are wrong as well - GameSpot is the _work_, CBS Interactive is the publisher - another example).Also, several print magazine refs appear to be missing page numbers. Ryan Norton 06:38, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply] Delist until the image source concerns raised above are addressed. "From a video game fan listing website" does not qualify as a source.Ryan Norton 01:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I agree that "From a video game fan listing website" does not qualify as a source—in fact, no one on this page has made that claim. The image is no longer in the article. Pagrashtak 01:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but there's still no source for the box image either.Ryan Norton 04:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Thanks for the strikes. I'm confused with this source discussion. Going back to the screenshot that I removed—the image page says "Screenshot from The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask" and "Copyright Nintendo". Wikipedia's Image use policy states this regarding image sources: "Always specify on the description page where the image came from (the source) and information on how this could be verified. Examples include scanning a paper copy, or a URL, or a name/alias and method of contact for the photographer. For screenshots this means what the image is a screenshot of (the more detail the better). Do not put credits in images themselves." (emphasis mine) File:Majora's Mask image.png is indeed a screenshot, and the image description page says what the image is a screenshot of. This seems to satisfy the policy for image source. Later in the policy, it states "Source: The copyright holder of the image or URL of the web page the image came from" (emphasis mine on "or"). In both images, the copyright holder is clearly stated. I feel like these images are in compliance with my reading of the policy. What am I missing? Pagrashtak 06:28, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You are correct, it does appear to pass the wording of the general image use policy (although not fair use). Also, apologies if my earlier comment offended you; thanks for improving the work/publisher stuff as well (BTW for future reference you can just say GameSpot instead of www.gamespot.com for example but technically either is correct) - all is left is the page numbers, but I'm not going to object on that myself. Ryan Norton 06:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the input, no offense taken. Pagrashtak 15:48, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that "From a video game fan listing website" does not qualify as a source—in fact, no one on this page has made that claim. The image is no longer in the article. Pagrashtak 01:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Delist - Looking through the article, I have seen sourcing problems. The main sourcing problems are no references in the first paragraph in the "Gameplay" section; as well as some parts in "Masks and transformations". Also, I saw comprehensive problems in the "Music" section because of it not having enough info as it should have, like its soundrack article. GamerPro64 (talk) 13:28, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The sourcing of the "Gameplay" section (which includes the "Masks and transformations" section) was brought up and answered during the pre-FARC review above. As to the "Music" section, please tell me more specifically what is missing. Pagrashtak 15:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it should have the track listings from the soundtrack, like in Halo Wars. As well as some more infomation in the section about the music in the game. GamerPro64 (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It sounds to me like you're actually asking for a merge, since the soundtrack article is little more than a track listing. The track list works in the Halo Wars article, where there are only 25 tracks. Majora's Mask has 112 and I feel that the track list would overwhelm the article. Do the other reviewers have any comment on this? Pagrashtak 21:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've expanded the Music section some. If you have anything specific you would like added, please let me know. You didn't mention the Gameplay sourcing after my reply—just to be clear, do you consider that part resolved? Pagrashtak 22:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe that the Gameplay section problem is resolved. I have striked out my Delist, though I don't know if I should should say keep. GamerPro64 (talk) 15:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it should have the track listings from the soundtrack, like in Halo Wars. As well as some more infomation in the section about the music in the game. GamerPro64 (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The sourcing of the "Gameplay" section (which includes the "Masks and transformations" section) was brought up and answered during the pre-FARC review above. As to the "Music" section, please tell me more specifically what is missing. Pagrashtak 15:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist, I am seeing some improvements to the article, however, I can't support keeping it. JJ98 (talk) 06:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Per FAR instructions, your declaration should be "supported by substantive comments". As it stands, you have given me nothing actionable to be able to reverse your decision. Pagrashtak 21:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep for now. JJ98 (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This article has improved significantly so far. Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep sufficient improvements made. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 14:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 01:46, 30 July 2010 [16].
Review commentary
- Notified: Listed Wikiprojects; top editors long inactive.
- Please list the notifications with links to the talk pages. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Near the top of Wikipedia:Featured articles/Cleanup listing. Seems to have problems with 1a, 1c, 1d.
- Lots of [improper synthesis] tags in the first section.
- [citation needed]s under the "Rise of the caliphate and civil war (632–750)" header.
- "New dynasties and colonialism (1030–1918)" breaks down into proseline in the last three (very short) paragraphs.
- Most of the "mosques" header is unsourced.
- Sunni and Shi'a sections under "Denominations" end in one-sentence paragraphs.
- What the heck is up with all the bullet lists in the references section? That's a hot mess and a half. I honestly have no clue who thought that was a good idea.
- Several bare URLs in the references.
- What makes this a RS? (ref #17 at time of review)
Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 03:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Certainly needs a brush-up. This article gets about 12,000 views per day, & ought to meet the highest standards. I am slightly alarmed by the editing stats; the most prolific editors have not edited the article in a long time, often years, and most editors with 2010 edit dates have just edited for a few days.
The first sentence is not a good start - too much crammed in & not really grammatical: "...and by the Prophet of Islam Muhammad's demonstrations and real-life examples..." needs rephasing.Done, ok.Lots of tags - I don't know how valid these are.All seem gone, okIn "articles of faith" "Also, there are other beliefs that differ between particular sects" seems a questionable link.- rewritten, ok- The law section is somewhat unclear as to when & how Islamic law has been applied. - seems unchanged. Still an issue.
- In the history the period from roughly the 16th to early 20th century - the Early Modern period in Western terms - is very sketchily handled indeed. The overtaking of the Islamic world by the West is politely passed over. - Not much change, if any
- The history section is not very well written, and the reader struggles to see the wood for the trees. - rather better now?
- No mention of economic aspects of history at all - still true
The Maratha Empire was Hindu, not Sikh as stated.- corrected.- The 1st para of "Islamic revival and Islamist movements" is unreferenced. - still the case
- The "Denominations" section has too many short sections and paragraphs. Either roll them up or, better, expand them. - Improved; more could perhaps be done.
- No section on clergy, professional scholars and others with religiously-sanctioned positions. - short section added; could be longer.
- No coverage of Islam and either the arts or sciences, either historically or today. No touching on the role of the Arabic language, or the resistance until extremely late towards printing here for example. - Still the case
- No mention of slavery, either from the historical or religious aspects. - Still the case
The (unreferenced) picture caption "Islam prohibits women from showing their hair in public" would not be accepted by very many Muslims.- changed; ok- Coverage of a number of areas seems generally rather brief. - Not too much change here
- Some of the references seem questionable - there are too many old & general encyclopedias for one thing. Are they all actually used? The References contain a total of 8 works by Bernard Lewis, but I can't see that any of them are actually cited! Uncited works should be used, moved to Further reading, or dropped. - Still the case, though I can only see 7 Lewises now!
- The prose throughout is at best serviceable, and sometimes clunky and unclear. - has improved. UPDATES Johnbod (talk) 16:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Johnbod (talk) 03:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Once again, TPH, did you consider raising the issue of a revert to the version that last passed FAR before bringing this article to FAR? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:42, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The last FAR Wikipedia:Featured article review/Islam/archive1 btw was a pointy & abortive attempt to win an edit war. There was effectively no review of the article as it then was. Maybe one should look at the article that passed FAC in 2007? Johnbod (talk) 18:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Or something; the article was once in good shape, and I doubt that Islam has changed all that much in the interim :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That revision still has the yucky bullet-listed sources, which IMO should be demolished and rebuilt in a more accessible, less MOS-shredding format. Also, that revision still has many of the problems pointed out by Johnbod. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 02:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Or something; the article was once in good shape, and I doubt that Islam has changed all that much in the interim :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The last FAR Wikipedia:Featured article review/Islam/archive1 btw was a pointy & abortive attempt to win an edit war. There was effectively no review of the article as it then was. Maybe one should look at the article that passed FAC in 2007? Johnbod (talk) 18:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you want i could contribute to some changes. Leave me a specific note on my talk page if im needed.Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 18:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are prose, sourcing, comprehensiveness YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hold since the above user wishes to fix the problems. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 16:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- He hasn't edited the article yet, & no "specific note" has been left. Johnbod (talk) 16:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, i will try to address some of the problems in the Islam article right now. Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 16:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Sunni and Shi'a sections under "Denominations" end in one-sentence paragraphs." I dont see any problems with them. Can you be more specific?Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC) "What makes this a RS? (ref #17 at time of review)" adherents is a reliable source in my opinionIwanttoeditthissh (talk) 16:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC) "the Early Modern period in Western terms" - i think you should make this edit yourself Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2010 (UTC) "The 1st para of "Islamic revival and Islamist movements" is unreferenced."should i delete it? I cant find any sources Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 17:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No mention of economic aspects of history at all - actually, jizyah is mentioned under tax (unsigned - was that you Iwanttoeditthissh?)
- Iwanttoeditthissh continues to deal with points, but a little edit war has broken out of the numbers/%s of Sunni & Shia. I don't have time to look at this now, but there must be firm sources for figures somewhere, maybe in one of the other articles on the topic. Johnbod (talk) 11:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A notice was left on my talk page: "But so far we only have sources on statistics for Shia and Sunni, not other sects such as Ibadi, Sufi or Ahmadiyya (which has led to edit warring)." I'm clearly in over my head here since I made the mistake of nominating an article on a very in depth subject I know nothing about, so I'll bow out now. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 17:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi all, I would like an oppurtunity to hopefully deal with some of the issues raised in this review, having participated in bringing this article up to FA status a few years ago. I think perhaps over time additions or changes have probably been made, some of which fall below the high standards the article should meet. But I will look through the comments made and try to make changes accordingly. ITAQALLAH 23:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Itaqallah, it's great to see an experienced editor starting to work on the comments from the FAR - hopefully this article's FA status can be saved, as it is a major topic here on WP. Please just drop a note here when you feel you have addressed the concerns above, and please feel free to ping the editors who have commented in both the FAR and FARC sections to revisit their comments once they have been addressed. Dana boomer (talk) 01:35, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: How is work going on this? If the main editors feel that the above comments have been addressed, please feel free to ping the editors who have commented and ask them for any further issues they may have with the article. I still see improperly formatted references, dead links, and an extensive see also section (truely comprehensive FAs have few or no see alsos, as any links that are connected enough to be put into a see also section should be integrated into the article's body). If this is to be kept at FARC, it should also have an image review, but before I start pinging these reviewers, I would like to know if there are editors still interested in working on the article. Dana boomer (talk) 18:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per criterion three:
- File:Divisions of Islam.png - Source should be provided for underlying information.
- File:Madhhab Map2.png - Needs source for the "blank-map" from which it was derived.
- File:World Muslim Population Pew Forum.png - Needs source for the "blank-map" from which it was derived.
- File:Hattin.jpg - Needs a summary per WP:IUP. When was this painted? By whom? Is this actually the battle of Hattin (i.e. resolve the disputed tag)?
- Best just removed; whatever it was intended to represent, Hattin was famously fought in the middle of nowhere, with (crucially) no water around - this battle is sited across a stream outside a city or castle. Johnbod (talk) 16:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Dcp7323-Edirne-Eski Camii Allah-ds.svg - Mere text is not eligible for copyright protection. Re-license accordingly.
- File:Allah-eser-green.png - A derivative of this, which does not have a source. If indeed PD, removing background and coloring green is probably not sufficient originality to generate a new copyright (i.e. should not be using GFDL/CC license). Эlcobbola talk 12:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. My feeling is that this should be kept, but I've mostly looked at the prose. A few fixes are needed.
- "Muslim, the word for an adherent of Islam, is the active participle of the same verb of which Islām is the infinitive (see Islam (term))." Putting grammar at the head of this article will turn off a lot of readers. Can it be just "is related to", with the refs?
- "revealed at many times and places before,"—remove the last word?
- "The majority of Muslims belong to one of two denominations, the Sunni and the Shi'a."—This could be anything down to 51%. Is that the meaning? (I'd have thought a much higher proportion ... "most", or "almost all", or "the overwhelming majority")
- "are found in" twice within 10 seconds.
- "Islam" x 2. "religion" x 2.
That's the lead. Then ...
- "others ... other" (who's watching out for close repetitions?)
- MoS on ellipsis-point spacing—always to the left. But why not just "God, the One and Only etc without the points? Much neater. There are other ellipsis dots that need a space, too.
- Shouldn't "p." and the page number that follows it be spaced apart?
- "People", then "humans". No big deal, but a little odd.
- "(literally:"—You could remove the colon.
- The Five Pillars list: they all start with nominal groups—fine—but why not remove "which is".
- Is alcohol a food?
- Image of the muslim male with supposedly "trimmed" beard (looks pretty big to me). Is this of photographic merit? Does it elucidate the text? Does it portray mulsims as being of a certain racial/physical type? It's a pity it also shifts the focus onto males, feeding an unfortunate perception of the religion. The image lower down of the woman could also be seen as pandering to the "beautiful young woman" stereotype, and is unnecessary to explain the concept in the caption.
- Panoramic image of the mosque: it is TINY. Can it be "center" in the syntax and much much bigger, like about 400px?
- Year range in title: en dash, please.
- Ref tag 80, 82: formatting needs to be fixed.
- Invasions: see MoS about lower case in titles.
- "century to"—remove first word.
- Muslim percentage map: I nurse this idea that low-bandwidth users shouldn't have to click on images to get what they're about. Can you add to the caption something like "(black = 90–100%; lightest blue = 0–1%)". Just the outer two would give some idea. Same issue for denominations map.
- Faisal mosque: TINY. Is there something we should be noticing about the architecture? The caption needs to point us to it. Or give us a pic of one of the magically beautiful traditional mosques. BTW, the top image is great, but can't it be bigger? Can you shift that rather low-value box about Arabic text down away from the high-impact top, so the pic can be highlighted?
- No section on the relationship between Islam and art?
Please consider working up a WP:Featured topic on Islam. Tony (talk) 13:43, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist Nearly three months and there are still plenty of issues not yet addressed. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 01:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 04:25, 5 July 2010 [17].
Review commentary
Toolbox |
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- Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cheshire, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Theatre, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Architecture, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography [ie all of the projects listed on Talk:John Vanbrugh]. Original nominator has retired.
- Per the FAR instructions, have the top contributors been notified? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really, no. Not formally, nor on a level with important stuff like WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. Other users have kindly informed us, though. Giano and I are the main contributors, as I would have hoped was easy to see via for instance the edit counter Sandy links to, or by clicking on one of the three links straight to the article's FAC at the top of the talkpage.[18]. At that time, by the way, the nominators of featured articles were usually not contributors to the article, and the nominator User:ALoan had, in fact, little to do with it. Though not quite as little as those WikiProjects... In my opinion, it's time to stop referring to all those more or less far-fetched projects on FAR; the mechanical reference to the mass of them surely tends to obscure the actual contributors (if, indeed, such contributors are mentioned at all). I don't write this to complain of Ed17, but to suggest that the FAR customs w r t such matters are bad, and have slipped away, as per Sandy, from the actual FAR instructions. Can we have more handiwork and less mechanics in the notifications, please? Bishonen | talk 17:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]
- My sincere apologies to you and Giano; I didn't think to look for the top contributors, just the FAC nominator. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 18:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really, no. Not formally, nor on a level with important stuff like WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. Other users have kindly informed us, though. Giano and I are the main contributors, as I would have hoped was easy to see via for instance the edit counter Sandy links to, or by clicking on one of the three links straight to the article's FAC at the top of the talkpage.[18]. At that time, by the way, the nominators of featured articles were usually not contributors to the article, and the nominator User:ALoan had, in fact, little to do with it. Though not quite as little as those WikiProjects... In my opinion, it's time to stop referring to all those more or less far-fetched projects on FAR; the mechanical reference to the mass of them surely tends to obscure the actual contributors (if, indeed, such contributors are mentioned at all). I don't write this to complain of Ed17, but to suggest that the FAR customs w r t such matters are bad, and have slipped away, as per Sandy, from the actual FAR instructions. Can we have more handiwork and less mechanics in the notifications, please? Bishonen | talk 17:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]
I found this article through WP:URFA. Article easily fails 1c. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Only 5 notes, but otherwise seems a fine article. Johnbod (talk) 13:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with the_ed17 (talk · contribs), blatant referencing deficiencies include lack of citations for direct quotations of material. -- Cirt (talk) 13:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Where in fact? The Boswell is cited to a diary entry date, which is fine. I hope you're not one of those people who want OED page numbers? Johnbod (talk) 13:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It might be easier to illustrate where there could be improvements and more specific citations in certain key places such as after direct quotations of material by adding helpful templates like {{fact}} tags. Unfortunately, however, I will refrain from doing that, in this particular case. -- Cirt (talk) 14:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Where in fact? The Boswell is cited to a diary entry date, which is fine. I hope you're not one of those people who want OED page numbers? Johnbod (talk) 13:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't easily fail 1c - it is thorough and representative of the critical literature, and is verifiable against appropriate sources. The only question is whether or not the low number of inline citations meets or fails to meet the "where appropriate" criteria. I don't see anything in the article that is "likely to be challenged." DionysosProteus (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Current FA standards mean that virtually everything in the article needs to be cited. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 18:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not aware of that requirement; will reviewers please focus here on exactly which text they believe needs citation? Thank you, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I assessed the article using Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Are you working from a different set of criteria? Where are they? DionysosProteus (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You think the article would successfully gain support at WP:FAC and be promoted to WP:FA with the current standards at FAC, in the article's present state? -- Cirt (talk) 19:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no idea. The issue that you raised, however, is whether or not it fulfils the criteria. If those that I linked to are the ones in question, then the article fulfils them, as far as I can see. I assume from your response that those are the correct criteria? If the present practice is to pursue a different set of criteria, then the policy document needs to be adjusted to reflect that practice. As I understand it, the purpose of this assessment is to examine whether or not the article fulfils the FA criteria detailed in that policy. DionysosProteus (talk) 20:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure whether or not those are rhetorical questions - as the account DionysosProteus (talk · contribs) has been active on English Wikipedia for quite some time now... Nevertheless, it is quite clear that this article would not pass WP:FAC muster at current standards. -- Cirt (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, there is nothing rhetorical about them, they are genuine questions. Either the criteria given are the ones against which this article ought to be assessed, or else we should have access to a different set of approved criteria. The criteria are there to provide an easily accessible description of the standards to which all articles are to be held, as determined by consensus. I understand that you are arguing that that consensus has changed. If that is the case, then the criteria need to be ammended. Having done that, we may then have an opportunity to assess this particular article in light of those new criteria. Whether the policy and practice are not longer in synch or not, this article's assessment is not the appropriate place to debate that. The only relevant criteria for this assessment are those given in the policy statement. I tend to confine my comments to articles that fall under my areas of expertise. I'm not sure what you are implying with your description of the length of time with which I have been involved with Wikipedia--perhaps you could state it more explicitly? DionysosProteus (talk) 21:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The FA criteria are not the be all and end all of FA standards, rather, the standards of what is of FA quality are determined by the community at WP:FAC as informed by the FA criteria, and I highly doubt this article would pass muster at this point in time. According to its contributions, the account DionysosProteus (talk · contribs) has been editing since 2007. -- Cirt (talk) 21:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Correct. And your point in making that observation is what, precisely? If, as you argue, the standards to be applied in this assessment are not those of the featured article criteria, then the Featured article review needs to state that and to give explicit guidance about what further considerations ought to be made. As far as I can see, it does not. A fair assessment may only be made according to criteria that have been agreed upon and are explicitly stated in a policy document. The subjective preferences of particular editors is not an appropriate consideration, whether they participate in WP:FAC or not. DionysosProteus (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Determination of FA quality status is based on the criteria, and the standards as informed both by the criteria and by WP:CONSENSUS at WP:FAC. Hope that clarifies it a bit. -- Cirt (talk) 22:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If you wish to alter the critera according to which the assessment is made, then you need to seek consensus for that alteration and make the change to the policy documents mentioned above. Your assertion that other considerations are relevant remains an assertion in lieu of those changes. And the reason you mentioned how long I have been involved with Wikipedia was what, exactly? DionysosProteus (talk) 02:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Merely pointing out that this article would not be likely to pass WP:FAC at current standards for present WP:FA expectations. And DionysosProteus (talk · contribs) posed questions above that seemed confusing for an account active since 2007, but perhaps it has simply not yet been active at FAR and thus this may have been the cause of its protested confusion about FA standards. -- Cirt (talk) 03:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Correct. And your point in making that observation is what, precisely? If, as you argue, the standards to be applied in this assessment are not those of the featured article criteria, then the Featured article review needs to state that and to give explicit guidance about what further considerations ought to be made. As far as I can see, it does not. A fair assessment may only be made according to criteria that have been agreed upon and are explicitly stated in a policy document. The subjective preferences of particular editors is not an appropriate consideration, whether they participate in WP:FAC or not. DionysosProteus (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The FA criteria are not the be all and end all of FA standards, rather, the standards of what is of FA quality are determined by the community at WP:FAC as informed by the FA criteria, and I highly doubt this article would pass muster at this point in time. According to its contributions, the account DionysosProteus (talk · contribs) has been editing since 2007. -- Cirt (talk) 21:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, there is nothing rhetorical about them, they are genuine questions. Either the criteria given are the ones against which this article ought to be assessed, or else we should have access to a different set of approved criteria. The criteria are there to provide an easily accessible description of the standards to which all articles are to be held, as determined by consensus. I understand that you are arguing that that consensus has changed. If that is the case, then the criteria need to be ammended. Having done that, we may then have an opportunity to assess this particular article in light of those new criteria. Whether the policy and practice are not longer in synch or not, this article's assessment is not the appropriate place to debate that. The only relevant criteria for this assessment are those given in the policy statement. I tend to confine my comments to articles that fall under my areas of expertise. I'm not sure what you are implying with your description of the length of time with which I have been involved with Wikipedia--perhaps you could state it more explicitly? DionysosProteus (talk) 21:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure whether or not those are rhetorical questions - as the account DionysosProteus (talk · contribs) has been active on English Wikipedia for quite some time now... Nevertheless, it is quite clear that this article would not pass WP:FAC muster at current standards. -- Cirt (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no idea. The issue that you raised, however, is whether or not it fulfils the criteria. If those that I linked to are the ones in question, then the article fulfils them, as far as I can see. I assume from your response that those are the correct criteria? If the present practice is to pursue a different set of criteria, then the policy document needs to be adjusted to reflect that practice. As I understand it, the purpose of this assessment is to examine whether or not the article fulfils the FA criteria detailed in that policy. DionysosProteus (talk) 20:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You think the article would successfully gain support at WP:FAC and be promoted to WP:FA with the current standards at FAC, in the article's present state? -- Cirt (talk) 19:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Current FA standards mean that virtually everything in the article needs to be cited. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 18:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It is certainly short of "consistently formatted inline citations" (2c is it?) by current standards. Johnbod (talk) 03:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed it is 2C, and boy, does this fail miserably. Inline citations are indeed needed. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 00:05, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it doesn't fail 2c at all. Close inspection of the criterion reveals that it demands consistency "where required by 1c". The citations are not in any way inconsistent. The only question concerns 1c. And the discussion above concerned the appropriate criteria for making this assessment, which are given in Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Those are the only FA standards relevant in this case, as detailed in Wikipedia:Featured article review. DionysosProteus (talk) 03:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Feel free to continue arguing your interpretation of the FA criteria all you want, but if significant work isn't done, consensus will be vastly in favor of a stricter 1c/2c application and the delisting of this article. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 15:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no argument--the criteria are explicit and unambiguious. If you wish to alter the criteria, by all means seek a consensus for that and have it implemented. Until doing so, the appropriate criteria for this assessment remains those given in the policy, not what other editors imagine it to be. DionysosProteus (talk) 15:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Again: consensus here will determine that this article does not meet the current criteria. If you wish to loosen them, feel free to start a conversation on WT:FA?—but the burden is on you and the minority viewpoint. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 15:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The burden is on reviewers to demonstrate precisely what text they believe is uncited and requires citation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Again: consensus here will determine that this article does not meet the current criteria. If you wish to loosen them, feel free to start a conversation on WT:FA?—but the burden is on you and the minority viewpoint. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 15:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not propose to "loosen" the current criteria. The terms in which objections have been made above are clearly applying criteria not given in the published policy. Whether other criteria are applied when assessing new featured article candidates is irrelevant to this assessment. Those that govern this assessment are unambigious and hardly subject to a "strict" or "loose" interpretation: Inline citations are necessary "where required by 1c" (a direct quotation from the criteria); claims in the article are verifiable via citations "where appropriate" (again a direct quotation), linking to Wikipedia:When to cite, which gives anything that is likely to be challenged. Those are the exact criteria that I have applied. DionysosProteus (talk) 15:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Now that this is established, can reviewers please focus on the task at hand, to minimize the length of this FAR? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it doesn't fail 2c at all. Close inspection of the criterion reveals that it demands consistency "where required by 1c". The citations are not in any way inconsistent. The only question concerns 1c. And the discussion above concerned the appropriate criteria for making this assessment, which are given in Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Those are the only FA standards relevant in this case, as detailed in Wikipedia:Featured article review. DionysosProteus (talk) 03:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It looks to me like the article still meets the requirements established at WP:FACR. Although I think a case could be made for more stringent requirements for citation formatting, I find it inappropriate to coatrack such a discussion onto a single article review. I'd strongly suggest having the debate at WT:FACR, or a similar high-visibility venue, where more editors are likely to contribute to a consensus. --RexxS (talk) 17:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment There are uncited quotations scattered throughout the article. Please add citations to them. We can move on to other items that might need citations after that. Awadewit (talk) 05:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not altogether well, so perhaps people could wait for the citations, or else defeature the article. Bishonen | talk 22:18, 2 May 2010 (UTC).[reply]
- Comment unless there are significantly more citations added, 5 is probably a reasonable number if this was a C (or at best a B) grade article, not an FA. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added some citation needed tags to the top of the article, where I feel they are appropriate. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm afraid that the count of the number of citations is not a Featured Article criterion. 17 references are given, in addition to the 5 specific citations – the FACR is "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate". For example much of the Early life and background section is supported by Downes (although the article does leave it to the reader to verify that if they chose). I have some sympathy with the argument that it would be easier for the verifier if specific page numbers were given in places, but that does not alter the quality of the article, merely the ease of verification.
- Secondly, you appear to misunderstand the purpose of the lead section. It is a summary of the rest of the article and relies upon that for its verification in almost all cases. Have a look at other featured articles and you'll find a absence of citations in the lead, since the text there is actually supported by the references in the main body of the text. A simple example is your {{citation needed}} tag following "Sir John Vanbrugh ... was an English architect and dramatist". It is abundantly clear from the rest of the article that he was indeed both an architect and a dramatist (as well as English), so there really is no need for a citation there – similarly for the other valueless tags you placed. I would suggest you revert those additions as they do nothing to help improve this article. --RexxS (talk) 23:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- WellI accept that the "citation needed" of 'was an English architect and dramatist' may have been a little silly. But I think your description of the rest of them as valueless is slightly odd. I've been to Blenheim Palace fairly often as I live reasonably close by and I hadn't heard of any of those things. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And to take Sex Pistols which is on the front page right now, and it has a few sources in the lead, though it has another 231 inline references in the rest of the article. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: The lede may remain uncited IFF that exact same information is cited in the body text of the article. In this instance, that was not the case. -- Cirt (talk) 23:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With all due respect, that's not what WP:LEADCITE says. I find this useful: "editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material". In an FA lead, almost all citations are likely to redundant – in fact, I usually consider citations in the lead to be an indicator that new material has been introduced that is not present (and sourced) in the article (with the exception of the definition of the subject, the only part of the lead not a summary of the rest of the article). I would recommend when adding {{cn}} tags either that use is made of the |reason parameter, or that they are made one at a time with a precise edit summary to help editors find exactly what is being challenged. In this case, a Featured Article of considerable age, it is true that much of the work of verification is left to the reader (although the 17 references given are a good starting place). It would be much more helpful to editors wishing to improve the article if the focus were on refining the sources for text in the main body of the article – I'm sure the lead would then become uncontentious. --RexxS (talk) 00:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: The lede may remain uncited IFF that exact same information is cited in the body text of the article. In this instance, that was not the case. -- Cirt (talk) 23:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And to take Sex Pistols which is on the front page right now, and it has a few sources in the lead, though it has another 231 inline references in the rest of the article. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- WellI accept that the "citation needed" of 'was an English architect and dramatist' may have been a little silly. But I think your description of the rest of them as valueless is slightly odd. I've been to Blenheim Palace fairly often as I live reasonably close by and I hadn't heard of any of those things. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added some citation needed tags to the top of the article, where I feel they are appropriate. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed my citation needed tags from the lead so we can avoid controversy over it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:22, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern are sourcing YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Per Bishonen's request for extra time to add references, this article will be held for an extra period of time in the FARC section. Reviewers should refrain from making delist declarations until Bishonen has had a chance to work on the references. A request for a time frame on this work is awaiting reply. Dana boomer (talk) 15:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know. As I've mentioned, I don't care to discuss personal matters here. Several people are currently working on the article, and Rexxs is waiting for a library book.[19] Bishonen | talk 13:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC).[reply]
- Of course, and I wouldn't ask you to discuss them. I was thinking more along the lines of two weeks, a month, two months - nothing specific, but it's not a big deal if you can't estimate even that much. As long as progress is moving along on the article, it won't be delisted. Dana boomer (talk) 17:57, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Slowly but surely the number of sources is improving in this article :), there are now 10 inline references, up from 5. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Now 38, but the article is still disfigured with loads of "citation needed" tags, some rather silly, but many valid. Johnbod (talk) 16:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There are also several sections where no citation needed tags have been added at all, and some points in those probably still need citing.
- PS feel free to remove any you feel are particularly silly - I'm sure I went too far in places with adding them. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:59, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I won't for now, in case the referencing fairy passes by. Johnbod (talk) 19:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Now 38, but the article is still disfigured with loads of "citation needed" tags, some rather silly, but many valid. Johnbod (talk) 16:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. Still significant referencing issues throughout, as well as ongoing conflicts, including talk page conflict over poorly sourced and poorly written info removed from the end of the article. Best to submit this for WP:GA at some point, and get a GA review, particularly with regard to whether the page fails WP:WIAGA criteria points (2) and (5). Not up to GA quality at this point in time. -- Cirt (talk) 20:12, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist as above, there has been progress, but sadly not enough. I am intending to go down to the library over the next few days - and they have multiple books on the topic in stock. So if I manage to make a significant progress with the sourcing I'll retract my 'vote' here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:23, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, in the expectation that any remaining citation needs will be met soon. It's a beautiful article. Tony (talk) 15:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: In addition to failing WP:WIAGA criteria (2) and (5), the article also fails WP:WIAFA, criteria (1e). -- Cirt (talk) 15:07, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I'm not convinced the article passes (1a) really, the last three paragraphs aren't the only bit that wasn't particularly well written. Of note if the article is delisted I'll request it for good article nomination as quickly as possible. I believe though that if the article continues to improve then it won't be delisted. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:07, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please don't. Before it had all those little superscripted numbers in it, and was largely gutted of anything readable, it was an informative, well-written article. Perhaps it didn't meet the current criteria for FA, but that says more about the criteria for FA than it does about the article. You've done enough damage to something that was once something that almost anyone could read and learn from, and has now had the very life beaten out of it. Risker (talk) 02:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The vast majority of the article was and is well written and therefore the prose hasn't been changed, but just not everything, and the FA criteria are generally applied very tightly these days. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:52, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please don't. Before it had all those little superscripted numbers in it, and was largely gutted of anything readable, it was an informative, well-written article. Perhaps it didn't meet the current criteria for FA, but that says more about the criteria for FA than it does about the article. You've done enough damage to something that was once something that almost anyone could read and learn from, and has now had the very life beaten out of it. Risker (talk) 02:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I've sourced around another 20 points since 8 June but there is still lots left to source - sadly there still looks like plenty - even without 'citation needed' tags. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. Please. What has happened here is a classic example of what happens when people who don't know anything about the subject try to write about it, and the article is far, far worse from a reader's perspective now than it was when it was first brought to this page. Better that an article be interesting and readable than an article that fulfills arcane criteria but is boring, unreadable due to excessive footnotes, and largely missing the point. Risker (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Risker. I would prefer the article to be delisted. Firstly, it frazzles me to see Eraserhead and Cirt ignoring the request of delegate Dana boomer that "reviewers should refrain from making delist declarations until Bishonen has had a chance to work on the references".[20] And secondly, I've spent most of May and June in hospital, which makes the whole thing look kind of small (from my point of view) and, yes, prevents me from working on the references. It doesn't really matter any longer, but I've also had enough of being told by Eraserhead (who I'm sure has no personal animus in the case) and Cirt (who certainly does) how badly written John Vanbrugh is. ("Not up to GA quality at this point in time".) As Risker says, yeah, now it's badly written. Bishonen | talk 01:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC).[reply]
- Comment as the person whose made a significant percentage of these edits the only content changes I have made have either been minor in response to what a reliable source says - or have been discussed on the talk page first with no constructive responses from anyone until the change was actually made - and in the latter case if I "don't know anything about the subject and try and write about it" then it should be trivial to come up with a sensible argument as to why I'm wrong - and that hasn't happened. The major change I've made is to add footnotes pointing to reliable sources, but every other GA and FA that I've ever seen has at least as many - if not considerably more so I don't really see what the problem with them can possibly be - they are a fundamental part of the project as they are required to show that the page satisfies WP:V.
- And Bishonen I'm very sorry you've had an extended stay in hospital. However there are apparently plenty of other people apparently watching the talk page who could have started to add further references and respond to my comments about sections that need improvement in a constructive manner and sadly, with a couple of exceptions, neither have occurred. And those are the reasons Cirt and me have bought up as to why it doesn't satisfy the GA criteria. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:52, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Disgraceful FAR, excuse me, but where was the consensus to change the citation style here? There is no requirement at WP:WIAFA that the footnoted citation method be used, and WP:CITE requires consensus before changing established citation style. Rather than waiting for Bish to have the time to address the issues, the article has deteriorated while she was sick. My suggestion is to close this FAR as a default keep because of the abuse that occurred here, allow Bish three months to restore the article, ask everyone to grow up, and revisit the FAR in three months if there are still citation issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Per WP:When to cite which is linked from WP:WIAFA inline citations are required for quotations as well as Opinions, data and statistics, and statements based on someone's scientific work, both of which were sorely lacking in multiple places from this article before.
- And citation style is about whether you use Harvard referencing for your inline citations or the standard templates or some custom form, and whether you us US , Europe or ISO date styling. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh yeah and from the "page in a nutshell" from WP:CITE "This guideline discusses how to format and present citations. The policy on sourcing is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations.". -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps you should read the policy you're quoting:
An inline citation is a citation next to the material it supports, rather than at the end of the article. Inline citations are used to directly associate a given claim with a specific source. On Wikipedia, there are several different styles of inline citations. The two most popular are clickable footnotes (<ref> tags) and parenthetical references.
- You do know what a parenthetical reference is, I presume? You haven't improved the article, so this FAR should be closed until Bish can repair. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:27, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Parenthetical references are still inline, they are just in brackets rather than with a <ref> tag. Regardless they were still woefully deficient. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Regardless, you (or someone) changed the citation style on this article without consensus. End of story. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Parenthetical references are still inline, they are just in brackets rather than with a <ref> tag. Regardless they were still woefully deficient. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps you should read the policy you're quoting:
- Oh yeah and from the "page in a nutshell" from WP:CITE "This guideline discusses how to format and present citations. The policy on sourcing is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations.". -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The primary issue was the woeful lack of citations rather than their style, if someone wishes to change the style from <ref> tags to parenthetical references I'm really not bothered in the slightest. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:36, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- PS if I accidentally changed the referencing style from parenthetical references to <ref> tags I apologise. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Close as Default Keep, allow three months for repair, then initiate a new review if warranted. FAR should not deteriorate into a forum where articles are damaged and policy is flaunted, when the main contributor has asked for time. Wiki won't break if three months is allowed, and this FAR has already been open too long. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sandy, I don't believe you have the authority to make FAR closures or are sufficiently neutral on the issue to make a proper determination. IMO, after reviewing the discussion here, the article has a myriad of issues ranging from lack of sourcing to low quality writing. I suggest taking a step back and allowing a fellow reviewer to close this discussion. Sincerely, Blurpeace 22:15, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Clue in and read the page instructions; I don't close FARs, and I am well within my bounds as an editor to enter a declaration here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You may wish to inform these two editors: [21], [22]. Thanks for clarifying your intention was to vote – not close.
:)
Sincerely, Blurpeace 22:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for letting me know (and by virtue of this exchange, they're already informed). A FAC or FAR is closed when a delegate moves it from the page to archive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You may wish to inform these two editors: [21], [22]. Thanks for clarifying your intention was to vote – not close.
- Comment - I'm changing my vote to "let's shoot the nice editor who came in and tried to improve the article while Bishonen was sick." Sarcasm aside, let's try to be a little less angry with the only one who stepped up and attempted to save the article while it was sitting here and Bishonen was in the hospital? Also, with four delist !votes, this should be closed as delist, and if it is worked on further it can be nominated at FAC. There is no substantial need to keep a substandard FA, no matter what the reason. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 01:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm confused by this outcome. I assumed the decision would be to delist, with regret. There are still uncited quotations in the article, which is totally unacceptable. Moreover, no matter what one feels about the high demands for citation at FA, this article does not meet the current consensus for citation. We should not be creating two different standards for FAs - one at FAC and one at FAR. We should also be grateful that someone was willing to add citations - that the styles were altered is insignificant. That can easily be fixed. Adding citations is a time-consuming business - if we want to encourage people to help out with that, we shouldn't complain so much about how they do it. Awadewit (talk) 03:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've just been looking through FAR and FAN in order to better fulfill my role as milhist coordinator. Generally, when there are this many delist votes it goes to delist. Hence this table.
Keep | Delist |
---|---|
Keep based on expectation of improved referencing | Based on referencing |
Keep by person who said close as default keep (I'm not fully aware of the official role of that comment) | Based on referencing, went to help |
readability | |
readability, said above attempts at referencing improvement hurt |
I'm not sure what to make of this, but it seemed to be the best way to look at it. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 03:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As an addendum I've had some rather serious medical problems of my own, and so I hope I understand, to a certain degree, where Bishonen is coming from. I wouldn't want to have it delisted. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see rules bent to make room for my debilities to an extent where it could hurt some others. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 03:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As one of the delist 'voters' can we give it another 2 weeks and see if the references (and prose in places) improve further? Since everyone got so angry about it I think its worth a little more time now everyone seems to have calmed down. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand that the default action is to keep in situations like this, but I don't think that rule need be applied strictly in all cases. This article clearly has some issues that need to be fixed, and it would be strange to close this FAR in the face of those problems, especially since at least one of the delist !voters has made good-faith attempts to improve the article quality. That said, extending this FAR to allow people to settle down sounds like the most sensible idea. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: The fundamental problem here is that, because of the very drastic change in FA standards, articles which absolutely met the standards at the time they received their FA status don't meet the current standards. Instead of simply saying "nope, doesn't meet the criteria anymore, time to retire the bronze star", recognising that some articles require a complete reworking to meet current standards, we tear these articles down and, frankly, make them less useful to a reader than they were before. In other words, we take a perfectly lovely square peg, and turn it into an ugly round one, just to fit a new hole. We need to find a way to recognise the difference between "just needs a couple more refs" and "would need a fundamental restructuring to meet current standards." This article would need a fundamental restructuring, as would several others I've seen on FAR/FARC over the past year or so. When this is the situation, it is better to simply delist right up front.
Featured article status does not equate to being an informative, useful, interesting, encyclopedic article; it just means it meets certain arcane rules. Many editors who formerly participated in the FA process have stepped away as they have watched the emphasis change to footnotes and en-dashes instead of brilliant, well-informed and concise writing. While there are indeed exceptions, and some featured articles from the last few years have indeed been outstanding (or at least interesting), more and more of them in recent years have tended to be formulaic and distinctly uninteresting; all the references in the world aren't going to turn them into much more than a term paper, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them aren't just that.
I think we need to seriously consider a "fast delist" process here for articles that everyone acknowledges don't meet the 2010 standards, and allow these articles the dignity of being relatively intact. More and more editors (and readers, too) are realising that it's better to have a well-written article than it is to have a bronze star on it. Risker (talk) 15:07, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I agree with everything noted in the above comment, by Awadewit (talk · contribs). Indeed, it is an unfortunate problem that there are uncited quotations in the article. The concerns raised by Awadewit regarding double standards are also valid and quite aptly put. Also, it appears that Awadewit is correct regarding the unfortunate tendency to discourage others from working on improving the citation standards in the article, rather than providing encouragement for such positive quality improvement. -- Cirt (talk) 19:11, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@Risker, not being an expert on the FA process but I'm sure you can comment on the reviews/candidates and suggest that articles make their prose more readable as well as meeting the criteria on referencing and en dashes. Additionally I'm sure you can bring articles up for FAR if they don't meet high standards on prose as well per WP:FACR 1a. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I have not seen this article
prior tobefore now. I don't think it is too far off, and a much easier task than some other articles needing saving (every time I look at Australia I groan...). My hope is that all the best articles still remain together under the nice pale blue tent rather than being pushed out into the cold after some frayed tempers and pushing and shoving. Will see what I can do. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply] - Another comment. Yes, I've been checking in at this one occasionally. I do not understand why it is being held to different standards from those applied to other articles here. In particular, the urge to push it off the cliff contrasts with other nominations that languish for months without interest by the article editors. I don't understand it. Tony (talk) 04:54, 22 June 2010 (UTC) Agree with Slim below: that's the practical way to deal with this. Tony (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Remove from FAR, relist in three months or so if needed. My understanding has always been that if the main writers of a FAR-ed article reasonably request more time, they're given it. Having this situation continue while the main writer is unwell seems unfair, and no one is harmed by relisting it in a few months. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm happy to go with this if we can be more clear as to what the issues - beyond referencing - are. If we have more of an idea of what needs fixing then there is a higher chance of avoiding a FAR completely, or certainly more than a quick and easy FAR as we can have already cleaned up most of the issues. Additionally that will also reduce the possibility of further WP:DRAMA which sadly this review seems to have generated from the start. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrary break
OK, it would be good to have some idea of what needs improving in the article. Apart from referencing (which we all know leaves something to be desired) what else needs improving in the article to bring it up to FA standards? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:51, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This has been an abuse of the FAR process, and it shows one of the main reasons FAR participation has deteriorated so badly. It's not a matter of a double standard or different standards at FAC and FAR; we have a respected editor who has contributed a lot to the Project who was in hospital, editors who were grossly unaware of FA standards, policy and guidelines working on the article, multiple misstatements of policy and guideline on this very page, editors who honestly seem to believe that FAs are determined by counting the number of subscripts in an article (something we railed against in the past, but no one corrected here), a change in the citation method without consensus, a content dispute, a lack of qualified editors and reviewers affecting all content review processes, and a general waste of everyone's time here. FAR is backlogged with such FARs as this one, taking months to resolve, when the sensible thing to do (and what was ALWAYS done in the past) is to remind over-heated editors that FAR is NOT dispute resolution, do a default close, and tell everyone to come back in a few months if issues aren't resolved. If we can't wait a few months when a valued editor is sick, no wonder we lose valuable editors. I understand the urgent need to delist BLPs or medical articles that may be harming the subjects or our readers, but that is not the case here; in spite of some vociferous protestations, nothing in this article is going to break the Wiki if we allow knowledgeable editors time for repair. The FAR backlog needs to be dealt with sensibly, and there has been a real shortage of that here. Close it as a default, which doesn't mean the current version meets standards-- just says, for gosh sakes, will everyone cool off and come back later if warranted? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- ^^ Can we hat this and move on to discuss the article itself? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, whether or not this FAR proceeds, there are a few "cite needed" tags around and "page numbers required" - these should be fixed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 04:25, 5 July 2010 [23].
Review commentary
- Notified: Listed WikiProjects, top contributor User:HereToHelp
My main problems are 1a and 1c. It was kept at a FAR in 2008 but since then, it has only gotten worse. The last diff after the 2008 FAR shows most of the same problems, mostly in the use of proseline and poor-quality sources, so I think that it deserves a FAR.
- 1a concerns
- "However, Jobs’ leadership at the Macintosh project didn't last; after an internal power struggle with new CEO John Sculley, Jobs angrily resigned from Apple in 1985, went on to found NeXT, another computer company, and did not return until 1997." -- Not sourced, "angrily" indicates bias.
- Lots of one- and two-sentence paragraphs scattered about, most notably in the "1990 to 1998: Growth and decline" section.
- Eliminated all occurrences in the aforementioned section. Will do for the rest of the article in the coming days. Airplaneman ✈ 00:09, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The "1990 to 1998: Growth and decline" is also poorly written proseline, with nearly every sentence beginning with "In [year]..."
- Proseline fix attempt by grouping by subject rather than year: permalink, diff. HereToHelp (talk to me) 20:49, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some flowery prose such as "now-famous 1984 commercial" under Advertising.
- Dealt with. Will shoot down (have done a few times already) other occurrences in the article as well. Airplaneman ✈ 00:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 1c concerns pertaining to references
Reference numbers are as of this revision:
- Footnote #1 is a bare URL.
- This, from footnote #7, is tagged as a likely unreliable source. The same site is used in footnotes #6 and #8.
- The authors are members of the original Macintosh team (i.e. primary sources). Folklore.org is merely the host (now probably never updated.) HereToHelp (talk to me) 16:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes this, currently footnote #9, reliable?
- It was written by "a graduate student at the Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology at the University of Toronto". Does that count? HereToHelp (talk to me) 16:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Why should that be considered a high-quality source? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:21, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It was written by "a graduate student at the Institute for the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology at the University of Toronto". Does that count? HereToHelp (talk to me) 16:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Footnote #11 is malformatted.
- This appears to be an issue with {{citebook}} itself. There are no braces in the arguments. HereToHelp (talk to me) 16:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Footnote #12 doesn't credit the work or author.
- ForSomeReason,Footnotes#12and#13BunchEverythingUpIntoOneWord.
- Footnote #15 is a YouTube link to a definite copyright violation.
- Removed. Added two new references by Wired. HereToHelp (talk to me) 16:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ditto Footnote #16, a GoogleVideo link.
- Removed, along with trivial info that came with it. Airplaneman ✈ 23:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes this, footnote #17, reliable? (Also used at #42 and #47.)
- Looks like #17 ( currently #24 ) is referenced. We can probably go back to the ultimate sources if necessary. And the source that it uses for the MultiPlan assertion is ultimately from BYTE, June 1984, Volume 9, Number 6. The bit about Word is sourced to The Making of Microsoft, by Daniel Ichbiah and Susan Knepper, 1991 and Creative Computing, July 1985, Volume 11, Number 7. Looks like the other sources using this also can similarly be traced back. PaleAqua (talk) 03:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Or this, footnote #18?
- Zapped and replaced. Airplaneman ✈ 00:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Or this, used at #22 and #23?
- Or this, an obvious sales site at #26 and #30?
- Replaced #26. Looking for a suitable #30 replacement. Airplaneman ✈ 23:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The numbering changed, but I think I replaced] that one with a link to Apple's own knowledge base. The problem is that it doesn't explicitly say it was the first to use a color screen. So The Reliable Source does not provide enough info, and the less reliable sources do. Two weeks ago, I asked which would be preferable and got no response. The lack of input from the nominator has been most unhelpful, and so I think it is unfair that we progress to FARC without having time to fix these problems, because we do not know what solution is preferred. HereToHelp (talk to me) 00:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Replaced #26. Looking for a suitable #30 replacement. Airplaneman ✈ 23:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Or this, used at #48 and #49?
- How is it unreliable? Airplaneman ✈ 23:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This IS A FREAKING FORUM. Removed.
- Two more URLs were commented out in the text of the article. I removed them outright, since both appeared unreliable and/or were dead.
- 1c concerns pertaining to unsourced information
- Paragraphs 1 and 3 under "1985 to 1989: Desktop publishing era" are entirely unsourced, and the second paragraph of the same has only one source.
- First paragraph of "Hardware" and "software" sections are unsourced.
- Lots of [citation needed]s in the Software header and a few elsewhere.
Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 22:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Part of the problem is maintaining order when there aren't many involved editors to watch anonymous additions, who probably inserted most of the malformatted references. Another issue is (for a computer topic) there aren't a lot of sources for the history, because paper sources are out of print and the Internet did not exist yet. The islandnet site (17, 42 47) lists thousands of references to periodicals. I think it's pretty reliable. I can try to switch other references over to Apple's knowledge base, or to Mactracker, which was endorsed (subjectively) by MacWorld, a print publication that is cited (apparently without issue) in the article. I'll make some preliminary improvements today and see where we wind up as I go along. HereToHelp (talk to me) 15:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure if you were implying this or not, but the sources do not have to be online. Print sources are acceptable (and in many cases better). Dabomb87 (talk) 03:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know that. However, I do not have access to print sources. I have found that summary sites that reference print sources (example) are very useful. HereToHelp (talk to me) 23:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've got access to print archives and ILL, so I'll be able to get access to materials, but that means finding stuff first :P Apple Confidential looks like a good book on early Apple/Mac history, as does Fire in the Valley: The Making of The Personal Computer, and Insanely Great: The Life and Times of Macintosh, the Computer That Changed Everything. Problem is even if I get these books, I'll be unable to do much with them (semester is soon to be over), so they're not really accessible for the purposes of FAR/C.
- Another issue I have with the article is its overarching structure; it's designed to be incredibly difficult to keep up-to-date. Writing from a more historical perspective would help with some issues. The article really needs to be stripped and gutted in places and entirely rewritten, which just isn't going to happen in the context of an FAR. On a more addressable note, there's a hell of a lot of non-free images of operating systems, which is really secondary to the hardware subject, and could be removed (as it stands they don't have very good rationales.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 03:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know that. However, I do not have access to print sources. I have found that summary sites that reference print sources (example) are very useful. HereToHelp (talk to me) 23:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure if you were implying this or not, but the sources do not have to be online. Print sources are acceptable (and in many cases better). Dabomb87 (talk) 03:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern is sourcing and prose YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure if you're implying we move from FAR to FARC or not, but I don't think this has had a fair FAR. Even though it has run for two weeks, I have gotten no feedback from the nominator, which will help me improve the article (and real life has now given me more time to dedicate to that task.) I think with a little collaborative editing, we can remove (or at least postpone) the need for a confrontational FARC. HereToHelp (talk to me) 02:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With the move from the FAR section to the FARC section, the article has moved into the official voting phase. However, in a lot of cases additional work is done during this phase and the article can end up being kept - there is not really a set end date for this section if work is ongoing. Despite this, the comments by David indicate that major work needs to be done on the article - is this something that you feel you can address in a reasonable time frame? Also, I'm not sure why you think that FARC is "confrontational" - it is no more so than the FAR section, and as delegates YM and I do our best to make sure that there is as little confrontation and animosity as possible. Dana boomer (talk) 03:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- FARC is "confrontational" in that it has formal voting, but yes, we're all really on the same team, working towards a better encyclopedia. I'm not sure what you mean by big problems. Granted, the (lack of) sources is an issue, but one that can be resolved with a few hours of fairly repetitive editing, as soon as someone tells me (or us, thank you Airplaneman) what is the desired way to source tech specs of legacy Macintoshes. HereToHelp (talk to me) 13:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Probably the only legit way for tech specs is to source news items from the day that discuss them, honestly, as I can't think of any definitively reliable compendiums out there. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- FARC is "confrontational" in that it has formal voting, but yes, we're all really on the same team, working towards a better encyclopedia. I'm not sure what you mean by big problems. Granted, the (lack of) sources is an issue, but one that can be resolved with a few hours of fairly repetitive editing, as soon as someone tells me (or us, thank you Airplaneman) what is the desired way to source tech specs of legacy Macintoshes. HereToHelp (talk to me) 13:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With the move from the FAR section to the FARC section, the article has moved into the official voting phase. However, in a lot of cases additional work is done during this phase and the article can end up being kept - there is not really a set end date for this section if work is ongoing. Despite this, the comments by David indicate that major work needs to be done on the article - is this something that you feel you can address in a reasonable time frame? Also, I'm not sure why you think that FARC is "confrontational" - it is no more so than the FAR section, and as delegates YM and I do our best to make sure that there is as little confrontation and animosity as possible. Dana boomer (talk) 03:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure if you're implying we move from FAR to FARC or not, but I don't think this has had a fair FAR. Even though it has run for two weeks, I have gotten no feedback from the nominator, which will help me improve the article (and real life has now given me more time to dedicate to that task.) I think with a little collaborative editing, we can remove (or at least postpone) the need for a confrontational FARC. HereToHelp (talk to me) 02:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist the problems are simply too large for FAR to accommodate. If I had lots of free time, I'd try to help out... but I don't at the moment, and won't be able to address most of the issues until a later date. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 03:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
HereToHelp has asked me to elaborate on which problems I think the article still has:
- Intro
- There shouldn't be any references in the intro, except for the pronunciation. Intros are supposed to summarize facts which will be sourced later on in the article.
- I disagree. WP:LEADCITE says there should be fewer sources, but it is not required to be devoid of them. Other than the pronunciation, there's only sources for the original Mac and original iMac (which are pretty important). I'd almost like to see a citation in the third paragraph. HereToHelp (talk to me) 21:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 1979 to 1984
- Last half of first paragraph is unsourced (starting at "In September 1979, Raskin...").
- Since all you're doing is establishing that these people were in fact on the Mac team, i don't think there's a huge need for citations, but I added them for every possible contentious thing I could find. HereToHelp (talk to me) 21:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All but the last sentence of the second paragraph is unsourced.
- That source covers every single fact and number in that paragraph. I checked that on the last FAR. HereToHelp (talk to me) 21:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 1984
- "Because the machine was entirely designed around the GUI, existing text-mode and command-driven applications had to be redesigned and the programming code rewritten; this was a time consuming task that many software developers chose not to undertake, and resulted in an initial lack of software for the new system." — unsourced
- As a software developer that doesn't seem particularly controversial. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Eraserhead for the most part (I am a Mac developer from 1985 to present) but the phrase "machine was entirely designed around the GUI" is technically incorrect; the word "entirely" at least should be dropped, or changed to "significantly" perhaps, and the word "machine" changed to "operating system". Finally, the phrase "and resulted in an initial lack..." should probably read "and could be regarded as a reason for an initial lack...". Geoffreyalexander (talk)
- As a software developer that doesn't seem particularly controversial. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 1985 to 1989
- Among the first three paragraphs, only the last sentence of the second paragraph is sourced. The rest still needs sourcing.
- "Later Macintosh computers had quieter power supplies and hard drives." — unsourced
- "In September 1986 Apple introduced the Macintosh Programmer's Workshop, or MPW that allowed software developers to create software for Macintosh on Macintosh, rather than cross-developing from a Lisa. In August 1987 Apple unveiled HyperCard, and introduced MultiFinder, which added cooperative multitasking to the Macintosh. In the Fall Apple bundled both with every Macintosh." — Could this be expanded? It's a two sentence paragraph that disrupts the flow of the section. The paragraph below it is also very short.
- Below that, the paragraph beginning "In 1987, Apple spun off its software business..." is entirely unsourced until the last sentence.
- "With the new Motorola 68030 processor came the Macintosh IIx in 1988, which had benefited from internal improvements, including an on-board MMU. It was followed in 1989 by a more compact version with fewer slots (the Macintosh IIcx) and a version of the Mac SE powered by the 16 MHz 68030 (the Macintosh SE/30, breaking the existing naming convention to avoid the name "SEx")." — all unsourced; the last parenthetical in particular reads like OR.
- Sourced; parenthetical removed. HereToHelp (talk to me) 03:59, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 1990 to 1998
- "Despite these technical and commercial successes, Microsoft and Intel began to rapidly lower Apple's market share with the Windows 95 operating system and Pentium processors respectively. These significantly enhanced the multimedia capability and performance of IBM PC compatible computers, and brought Windows still closer to the Mac GUI." — unsourced. Rest of this section looks fine.
- 1998 to 2005
- "the least expensive Mac to date." — unsourced
- Could this section not be expanded? These are more modern Macs, so I would think that there's more to be said on each.
- 2006 onward
- Entire first paragrah is almost entirely unsourced.
- Hardware
- First paragraph is unsourced, as is second paragraph up to "USB was introduced in the 1998..."
- Couple of [citation needed]s.
- Removed. HereToHelp (talk to me) 17:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Software
- First and last paragraphs are entirely unsourced.
- Couple more [citation needed]s present.
- Only one more...HereToHelp (talk to me) 17:18, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Advertising
- Very thin on sourcing as well. Both paragraphs are entirely unsourced until last sentence.
- Market share and user demographics
- Disjointed prose. First two paragraphs are very short, and last paragraph is only one sentence long.
- More [citation needed] tags to be addressed.
- References
Still having some problems here too:
- Reference #14 "Linzmayer, Owen W. (2004). [www.owenink.com Apple Confidential 2.0]. No Starch Press. pp. 113. ISBN 1-59327-010-0." is malformatted.
- Fixed. Darn http:// omission. HereToHelp (talk to me) 19:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- References 25 and 26 (oldcomputers.com) aren't loading for me right now. Using Google archives, though, the site doesn't look like a RS.
- Both loaded fine for me just now. I'm on Firefox 3.6. Airplaneman ✈ 22:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes EveryMac.com a RS?
I agree that there are still a lot of problems, but for now I'll ask to hold since HereToHelp was so quick to fix the first batch of problems I uncovered. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 19:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for asking for a hold (seconded). The biggest issue is how to cite tech specs (although I've responded to some of the low hanging fruit above). Der Wohltemperierte (David) Fuchs could not name a "definitively reliable compendium" to cite. Apple's database is reliable, but sparse. Other sites (oldcomputers.com, everymac.com) give more information (a prose description rather than filling out a table), but are apparently not reliable and have commercial interests. Mactracker is a tertiary database, which might have some oversight by its creator and feedback of users, but it is compiled in part from Wikipedia and requires fact checkers to download it. And news articles from the era are not online, and impossible for me to access and other to verify. So, in summary, if we cannot establish a precedent for the preferred way to cite the technical specifications of legacy Macintoshes, there is no way to properly source the article. HereToHelp (talk to me) 19:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I was reading through a previous FAR of Macintosh and found that this article has once again grown in size. I used everymac.com to source tech specs in the (now GA) MacBook Pro article because the reviewer discouraged primary sources (Apple.com) and pointed me towards the site. I know FA standards are more strict, but I agree with HereToHelp that if we can't use sites such as everymac, we can't source the tech specs. Back to the size of the article: we could consider trimming the tech specs if need be to shorten it - is length still an issue? Thanks for putting it on hold, TPH. Airplaneman ✈ 21:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Non-Apple sites provide critical context and information. Let's pick one and switch to it. HereToHelp (talk to me) 21:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm used to everymac.com, as I have used it before. Oldcomputers.com could be used for older computers/OSes, as everymac (which I searched yesterday in an attempt to find a System 7 "24 to 32 bit switch" source) covers mostly modern Macs. Airplaneman ✈ 22:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Non-Apple sites provide critical context and information. Let's pick one and switch to it. HereToHelp (talk to me) 21:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I was reading through a previous FAR of Macintosh and found that this article has once again grown in size. I used everymac.com to source tech specs in the (now GA) MacBook Pro article because the reviewer discouraged primary sources (Apple.com) and pointed me towards the site. I know FA standards are more strict, but I agree with HereToHelp that if we can't use sites such as everymac, we can't source the tech specs. Back to the size of the article: we could consider trimming the tech specs if need be to shorten it - is length still an issue? Thanks for putting it on hold, TPH. Airplaneman ✈ 21:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: although only taking a cursory glance, the main problems are the uncited statements, some small MoS issues (see my MacBook Pro good article review as the issues are similar), and bias towards current models in the "Product line" (in other words kill it). I would also kill the "See also" section and the portal links. I'll see if I can give a more comprehensive review at a later date. OSX (talk • contributions) 14:12, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, from experience David Fuchs (talk · contribs) is quite knowledgeable about this and it would be best to address these issues more substantively to get the article up to FA standards. -- Cirt (talk) 16:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The only reason why we can't address these issues is because no one can tell us how we should reliably cite tech specs of legacy Macs. If we could do that to everyone's satisfaction, everything else will fall in to place. HereToHelp (talk to me) 00:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To would-be closing admin: WP:MAC is undergoing active revival and reorganization, which will hopefully coalesce into active article improvement. I also note that no solution for citing the technical specifications on legacy Macs has been agreed upon, making it difficult to reference the article. Activity on both "sides" has been low, and I ask you to retain this nomination on hold until we can get a strong force of editors working on problems with agreed-upon solutions. It will happen. Soon. HereToHelp (talk to me) 00:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. This article lacks a clear focus. The Macintosh is presented as a "series of several lines" of products. But more than half the lead is summary of Apple's current product line. This may be fine for trade magazine article, but not for an encyclopedia article. Strictly from a hardware perspective, it makes no sense to treat the x86 based macs and the older ones in the same article, etc. Is this article about the brand? Is it about all the computers that could/can ran something call Mac OS (with or without X). The heavy emphasis on software throughout the article could lead one to think that. Can't tell for sure... The timeline even has the iPod and iPhone in it. I suggest it be split in more manageable sub-articles. Pcap ping 14:15, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I admire your holistic approach, rather than nitpicking over citations. The nature of the wiki is for articles to evolve, perhaps not with an original design plan, and be molded by their editors and critics. But I feel like the feedback is increasingly saying that this article is unfeatureable: you want it split, he wants it cited in ways no one can agree on, she wants it more recent, you want it categorical. We can't please everyone at once - trying to do so leads to the contortionist structures you criticize. HereToHelp (talk to me) 14:29, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Due to the lack of feedback on what constitutes a reliable source, I have opened a request on the reliable sources noticeboard. HereToHelp (talk to me) 04:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have started a project to create {{cite mac}}, which will make it easy to reference models to both Apple and everymac.com (which looks like the best third-party site out there). Hopefully it will be ready to be used in the next few days. HereToHelp (talk to me) 03:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This article has been here for ages. Hardly anything has been done this month. Looks like a delist to me. Tony (talk) 14:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the problem is that we're not sure what to do with hardware sourcing. Airplaneman ✈ 13:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- New developments (June)
- Delist unfortunately, because if no one can figure out the sourcing, then it should not remain an FA until it has been sorted out. Sometimes, and article just does not fall under the strict FA standards any longer, and in this case, the sources must be dealt with independently. —fetch·comms 21:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have gone through and converted every hardware reference I could find to {{cite mac}}. This seems to be the best solution anyone has come up with. I will be working in the next few days to remedy all concerns. Airplaneman will too (nudge nudge). HereToHelp (talk to me) 03:52, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorsing my delist for now. Fetchcomms' reasoning is spot-on. If we can't figure out a proper citation method, it probably doesn't deserve FA. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 04:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We just did! Since no one else had a better idea, we created {{cite mac}} to give links to Apple's knowledge base and a third party site. HereToHelp (talk to me) 05:12, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following is copied from User_talk:Fetchcomms#Mac_FAR:
- I thought the original concerns with were the sources themselves (relying on Apple's website and questions about EveryMac's reliability). The one thing I don't like is having to do here is remove content because it is unsourced and possibly cause a decrease in the comprehensiveness of the article. Also, I'm not sure what advantages this cite mac template has--it is not in a "standard" format (like MLA, APA, Chicago, etc.) nor does it contain information like the source page's title, publisher, date published, etc. Other issues:
Originally, the hardware architecture was so closely tied to the Mac OS operating system that it was impossible to boot an alternative operating system. The most common workaround, used even by Apple for A/UX, was to boot into Mac OS and then to hand over control to a program that took over the system and acted as a boot loader. This technique was no longer necessary with the introduction of Open Firmware-based PCI Macs, though it was formerly used for convenience on many Old World ROM systems due to bugs in the firmware implementation.[citation needed] Now, Mac hardware boots directly from Open Firmware or EFI, and Macs are no longer limited to running just the Mac OS X.
- under "Hardware and software" subheading "Software", and
Apple directly sub-contracts hardware production to Asian original equipment manufacturers such as Asus, maintaining a high degree of control over the end product. By contrast, most other companies (including Microsoft) create software that can be run on hardware produced by a variety of third-parties, like Dell, HP/Compaq, and Lenovo. Consequently, the Macintosh buyer has comparably fewer options.
- under "Hardware". "It is available only in Bluetooth, and the Mighty Mouse (re-branded as "Apple Mouse") is available with a cord." under the same heading is unsourced, and "Because Mac OS X is a UNIX like system, borrowing heavily from FreeBSD, many applications written for Linux or BSD run on Mac OS X, often using X11. Apple's less-common operating system means that a much smaller range of third-party software is available, but many popular applications such as Microsoft Office and Firefox are cross-platform and run natively." under software is as well. Quite a few ends-of-paragraphs under "1985 to 1989: Desktop publishing era" are unsourced (and if the ref is in the next paragraph, it should be doubled). Lastly, "Mac OS X’s share of the OS market increased from 7.31% in December 2007 to 9.63% in December 2008, which is a 32% increase in market share during 2008, compared to a 22% increase during 2007." under "Market share and user demographics" is unsourced--and these numbers definitely need to be attributed to somewhere. A major other pet peeve--please, please, go through all the existing citations and italicize titles and stuff. And add publishers/works! Also--citations need to be consistent--I see some "Apple" as publisher, and some "Apple Inc.."--go with the latter, and remove the period (template auto-adds one). Ref consistency needs a ton of work. —fetch·comms 13:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In 2007, Apple Computer Inc. became Apple Inc. so we can either use the name appropriate for when the reference was published, or (my preference) just say Apple. {{cite mac}} is a work in progress as far as formatting. Apple has last updated info for each article; everymac does not. I'm not ready to give up on the nomination yet but I certainly now understand your viewpoint of delist, then fix. Thank you. HereToHelp (talk to me) 13:53, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
- You may wish to consider adding an appropriate infobox for this article, if one exists relating to the topic of the article. [?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
- Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: favorite (A) (British: favourite), aluminum (A) (British: aluminium), criticize (A) (British: criticise), ization (A) (British: isation), any more (B) (American: anymore), program (A) (British: programme), programme (B) (American: program ).
- The script has spotted the following contractions: isn't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded.
- Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, —mono 21:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Due to the number of outstanding delist votes and the amount of time this nomination has been up, it is close to being delisted. Heretohelp, if you feel that you have addressed the comments of the editors above, please ping them on their talk pages and ask them to revisit this review. Dana boomer (talk) 00:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand; thank you for your generosity and time taken to provide such valuable feedback. You have persuaded me that there is a lot more to do both systematically (references) and thematically (scope, organization), and these issues require more time and energy than the FARC environment permits. I need to check with Airplaneman and WP:MAC, but I'm about ready to be done. HereToHelp (talk to me) 01:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Ahhh I wish I would have saw this some time ago. It's still a great article, would hate to see it go, but there are several good points here. I reworked the intro, hopefully for the better, to get rid of some of the jumping context problems. That said, besides my edit there hasn't been any action for a week really, and several of the points raised above still stand unfortunately. RN 08:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Dana boomer 01:01, 30 June 2010 [24].
Review commentary
- Notified: Plumbago, Tom Edwards, Rehevkor, Nufy8 and WikiProject Video games
- The Production Development section contains too much info about Steam. Info about the Steam application itself should be in the Steam article. Info that applies to Steam AND Half-life 2 and not any other games should be moved to the release section. The negative reception should be moved to the Release section. Fails 4. & 2b.
- There is nothing about all the European players being unable to play the game, despite all the negative coverage it got.[25][26][27] Fails 1c & 1d.
- The Expansions and modifications section goes in to too much detail and contains info about mods with only primary sources. This relate to the game itself or the engine it is on?. Fails 4.
Citations 14, 15, 16 are not complete, and are they reliable?Many citations are missing author names, publish dates and other applicable information, citations are not consistent. Fails 2c.
- Reviewsontherun citation is not working.--Vaypertrail (talk) 06:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Half-Life Fallout citations 34 to 41 all just go to the websites front page.(2c)- The last sentence of the Narrative section looks like original research. (1c)
- And for such a notable game which has been released on so many platforms, it really seems underdeveloped. For example, there is nothing about how well it was received on the gaming console platforms.
The article became featured in 2006, but hasn't really stood the test of time and really needs a major revamp to continue meeting the featured article criteria.--Vaypertrail (talk) 15:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some problems are fixable (mostly the reference formating, bad links, and the like) but not fundamentally bad to drop it from featured. Some points:
- This was the first major game that was tied to Steam on the PC. The fact that it caused problems (this is what you're referring to by the European issues as well) trying to play the game are necessary to document as part of the Steam tie in. The references you have for the European issues can be added there, but the problem wasn't isolated to Europe.
- As far as sources say, the players being totally unable to register there game was in Europe only.--Vaypertrail (talk) 22:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And that's part of the overall "problems with Steam and HL2 on launch" that are already in the article. There's no need to further clarify the details, though we can certainly add the BBC source you supply as another facet. --MASEM (t) 12:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The Expansion section doesn't see to be that details (it calls out to two other articles). As there are sourced mods on the third-party mod page (and most of those are third-party sources separate from Steam or the mod developers), they can be easily added here. Fixable.
- The narrative sentence is accurate - it is basically saying the story continues into Ep1 and 2. Maybe the wording change, but again, nothing difficult to correct.
- Look at the sources for it.--Vaypertrail (talk) 22:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As HL2 never got a standalone release on consoles, only through the Orange Box, there's not much that could be added there. I think a link to the OBox article would help.
- Again, I think most of the points are fixable with attention but not to the degree that requires demotion. (I will try to fix some of them myself ) --MASEM (t) 16:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree, these aren't all minor problems that any editor can just fix.--Vaypertrail (talk) 15:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed refs 14, 15, and 16 and fixed piped links to the best of my abilities. I'm gonna work on some other refs. that failed 2c. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you guys take a look at my changes in citations 34-41? Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 02:46, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As for the WP:OR of the first sentence in the narrative sentence, there is an article in the January/February issue of GamePro that talks about silent protagonists, however, I never had the time to buy it but I did read it. Does anyone have anyway to access this issue? Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 03:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Here are some articles talking about gordon's characterization, [28] and [29] Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 03:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern brought up in the FAR section include referencing and content. Dana boomer (talk) 22:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After looking at this article multiple times, it pains me to say that this article should be Delisted. Though I do think that it could be a Good Article with a little more work. GamerPro64 (talk) 00:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you point out some of the outstanding issues so they could be addressed. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Certainty. I see reference problems in the article, like un-referenced material. A bad sight to see. GamerPro64 (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist Very choppy prose yet; lots of one- and two-sentence paragraphs and a few unsourced sections. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 19:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: At this point, since there is a contributor who is obviously willing to work on the article, reviewers shouldn't be entering one-line delist declarations. Instead, they should be commenting on specific issues that need to be addressed before the article is kept, including giving specific examples. Dana boomer (talk) 20:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, that is exactly what I need. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 01:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, Dana-- I'm seeing lots of uncritical delists lately at FAR. Uncontroversial statements don't require citation, and dead links aren't an automatic reason for delisting either. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:12, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, agree with exactly everything in the above comment by TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs), who is right on the mark about deficiencies in the article. Might be best to try for getting up to speed first for current WP:GA standards. -- Cirt (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, to all reviewers, please give specifics!! We have a user interested in improving this article, but general comments like "very choppy prose" are not generally very helpful. Give examples of the choppy prose, outline exactly which sections you feel need references (remember, non-controversial statements don't necessarily need refs!), etc. You don't have to list every instance of the above, but a few examples are much more helpful than a one-line comment, especially when there is an interested editor. This process is about improving articles to the current FA status, not quickly rushing them through the process for an easy delist. Dana boomer (talk) 00:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Per request of Dana, I have listed the parts of the article that needs referencing. GamerPro64 (talk) 20:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The last paragraph of the "Setting" section.
- The first, second, an last sentence in the "Narrative" section.
- The last sentences in the second and third paragraph in the "Development" section.
- Hopefully, I'm not nit-picking. GamerPro64 (talk) 20:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The last paragraph of setting, has some OR and it mentions an interview, so i'll reword it and reference that interview.
- The 1st, 2nd, and last sentence part of the 1st paragraph of the narrative section? They seem pretty obvious, so I won't have trouble finding refs. for that.
- Those last sentences of the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the development section are completely OR, and definitely are going to be entirely removed.
I'll update you when I get them. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 21:30, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well GamerPro, I've addressed your problems to the best of my ability, if there is anymore discrepencies needed to be fixed please point them out. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 03:27, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would give more examples of problems with the article, but seeing as most of the things I've said haven't been fixed, I don't see much point. So I'm sticking with my belief that it should be delisted.--Vaypertrail (talk) 08:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please strike through the statements of yours above that have been met and bold those that have not been met so I can understand your above statement more easily. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 00:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Vaypertrail (talk) 06:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Per the reviewontherun link, it links to the page that has the link to a video on that page which says "Best Games of 2004", you have to click on that to get the video you want. It doesn't automatically give ou the video. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 23:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Err, some of the issues you've stated aren't really issues. The Steam paragraph is elaborating on information about the release of HL2 on the PC, while also stating Steam information without the need to click the Wikilink. The european part is something I will address later in the reception section. The mods section is relating to the legacy left by HL2, however does not state HL2 but rather the engine HL2 popularized. The reception part about consoles is addressed in the Orange Box as a whole but, I think I could take some reviews from there and use the parts of the reviews that focus on HL2. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 03:27, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Subzerosmokerain, I will try to be a bit more clearer.
- The Half-Life_2#Development section contains unnecessary detail on the Steam (content delivery) program which is already in that article.
- If the game has left a legacy and caused these new 'notable' mods to be created, then they will need to be covered by third-party reliable sources. Currently they are only covered by primary sources.
- I think that covers it.--Vaypertrail (talk) 15:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I really don't think that the information is unnecessary nor does keeping it in the text provide any detriment to the article, it's just an in-depth coverall for what's covered in the Steam article, but instead of the reader having to leave the HL2 article, they can just read what is there already.
- I'll cover the mods too in the reception, along with the console ports.(With the secondary reliable sources you are asking for). Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 23:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- After looking at the article again, I believe that my referencing concerns have been fixed. That being said, I say Keep Half-Life 2's FA status. GamerPro64 (talk) 21:43, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Subzerosmokerain, I will try to be a bit more clearer.
- Err, some of the issues you've stated aren't really issues. The Steam paragraph is elaborating on information about the release of HL2 on the PC, while also stating Steam information without the need to click the Wikilink. The european part is something I will address later in the reception section. The mods section is relating to the legacy left by HL2, however does not state HL2 but rather the engine HL2 popularized. The reception part about consoles is addressed in the Orange Box as a whole but, I think I could take some reviews from there and use the parts of the reviews that focus on HL2. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 03:27, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment by mav
- Over-long sentence, please break-up: "The game's available arsenal consists of modern-day projectile weapons, including a ubiquitous pistol, shotgun, and submachine gun, though more elaborate, fictional weapons are available, such as a crossbow that shoots hot metal rods, a pheromone pod that guides certain previously hostile alien creatures, and a pulse rifle that can also launch "Dark energy balls," that disintegrate enemies on contact."
- Another over-long sentence. I suggest adding a full stop after "theme" and replacing the semi-colon with a comma. "The environments in Half-Life 2, in accordance with the game's story, all have a distinct post-apocalyptic theme, yet in design they are varied, and include the Eastern European-styled City 17, the zombie-infested Ravenholm; the coastal Nova Prospekt prison and the alien interiors of the Citadel."
- I'm pretty sure that full stops should always be inside quote marks at the end of sentences. But I may be wrong in cases where the quote does not end in a full stop.
- Last three sentences of ===Awards=== should be combined into a single paragraph, IMO.
But other than the above, I think that the referencing, prose and content are now all up to FA standard. I'm leaning toward a keep, but the above really needs to be fixed first. --mav (reviews needed) 01:17, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Soundtrack section is a bit skimpy, and poorly sourced. What was reception of the soundtrack like? Who produced it? Some background info on the composer? Lots of small, one-sentence or just short paragraphs in subsection Distribution. The subsection, Critical response, is very small, this should be expanded upon further please. Awards subsection has some odd formatting and placement of cites, and a few one-sentence or short paragraphs. Expansions and modifications - this subsection could be expanded, with a couple paragraphs on reception of these mods. -- Cirt (talk) 21:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Closing note - Although extensive work was completed on the article, there are still several outstanding delists. The main editor has not responded to recent posts asking for updates, and the editors voting to delist the article have posted additional concerns that have not been addressed. When this article is brought back to featured article quality, it may be immediately re-nominated at FAC. Dana boomer (talk) 01:06, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 16:20, 12 August 2010 [30].
Review commentary
- Notified: User talk:mav, nominator and main contributor Wikipedia talk:WikiProject California, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America
I am nominating this featured article for review because it currently significantly lacks inline citations and some of the images lack sources. [Article was promoted about 5 years ago and has had no reviews since.] Mav has started is planning to add inline citations but we agreed it should be brought here in any case, to give it proper scrutiny. Mav was aiming to work on it this weekend. Tom B (talk) 03:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images where sources need to be stated:
- File:Miwok-Paiute ceremony in 1872 at current site of Yosemite Lodge.jpeg
- Source added --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Captain John Paiute.jpg
- Could not find source. I'll find a similar one and replace it. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image removed. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Y
File:Yosemite Falls by Thomas Ayres.jpg - File:Painting of Wawona Hotel by Thomas Hill.jpeg
- Thomas Hill died in 1908 but I could not find source to confirm this is a painting by him. Image removed. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Frederick Law Olmstead.jpeg
- Source added --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Y
File:Josiah whitney.jpg - File:Mother Curry in front of Camp Curry.jpeg
- Source added --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Dairy herd grazing in Yosemite Valley in 1918.jpeg
- Source added --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Fallen Monarch and F Troop of US Cavalry.jpeg
- Source added --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Hetch Hetchy Valley.jpg
- Source added --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text added to all article images by mav, the only dead external link has been fixed and the only ambiguous link has been disambiguated. Tom B (talk) 14:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still have all the major sources used to write this article. Citing shouldn't be an issue. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:17, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Inline cites for Kiver and Harris added. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Inline cites for Wuerthner added. Still have two more books to go through. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Inline cites for NPS 1989 added. One more book to go and then I'll start the expansion/reorg. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 03:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Inline cites for Schaffer 1999 added. mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 03:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments by Binksternet. I know this article is about all of Yosemite, but its treatment of Hetch Hetchy is scant. Binksternet (talk) 19:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- One initial impression is that the fight over Hetch Hetchy Valley is devoid of actors who first pushed for its use as a reservoir—there is only the Muir/Pinchot argument mentioned. How about SF Mayor (later Senator) James D. Phelan who used USGS surveyor Joseph B. Lippincott as his flunky, to establish rights to the river's water? Phelan filed for the water rights in his own name, not the city's. UC Berkeley professor Gray Brechin writes briefly of it here. Pinchot's involvement is not explained in the article; one would expect him to be on Muir's side from his avowed love of conservation, but he was instead aligned with Secretary of the Interior James R. Garfield and President Roosevelt, who backed Phelan's suggestion that the Hetch Hetchy Valley could be used for the betterment of the greater SF Bay Area, while preserving the Yosemite Valley from the same fate—the one sacrificed for the other.
- Other info used to expand that section. I'll try to add your suggested points later. But the detail should be in the Hetch Hetchy article. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is largely resolved now; any more detail is more appropriate for the Hetch Hetchy article. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Phelan and Lippincott now mentioned. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 02:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Plans are being studied for the removal of the dam, and alteration of the Hetch Hetchy water system to compensate for the resulting water loss." This sentence needs a cite, and a statement of which group is involved, and a dash of salt, as the chance of the dam actually being removed is exceedingly slim.
- Could not verify so sentence was removed. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The lead says the Sierra Club was involved in trying to save Hetch Hetchy, but the article section only mentions Muir.
- Sierra Club added with a cite. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Author Robert W. Righter argues that the battle over Hetch Hetchy catalyzed the whole notion of modern environmentalism, in his 2006 book The Battle over Hetch Hetchy: America's Most Controversial Dam and the Birth of Modern Environmentalism.
- Article now mentions importance of the fight to save Hetch Hetchy. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 02:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The article does not mention Lake Eleanor in Yosemite, once included in SF City Engineer Carl E. Grunsky's proposal for two dams: one at Hetch Hetchy and one at Lake Eleanor. Later, he calculated the lake to be large enough to supply San Francisco's water needs for a century, without touching Hetch Hetchy. Grunsky and Phelan instead focused on damming Hetch Hetchy. SF owned the rights to all of Lake Eleanor's water, but abandoned them by not acting. Righter, 2006, p. 79.
- Article now mentions Lake Elanor. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 02:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The most intense personal battle of wills was between Muir and Phelan. Righter, 2006, p. 50.
- I think that is more appropriate for the Hetch Hetchy article. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hetch Hetchy water is so pure that it is exempt from filtration requirements.[31] San Franciscans, in general, appreciate the superb water they get. San Francisco's Anchor Brewing acknowledges the source of "fabulous water" that goes in their beers.[32]
- That is more appropriate for the Hetch Hetchy article. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No mention of how profitable the park concession has been. In 1988, concessioners pulled in $500M but paid the US $12.5M for the franchise.[33]
- Info added. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 02:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No mention of the history of the Yosemite Park & Curry Company, how it became a subsidiary of MCA along with Universal Pictures and Motown. Nothing about how Japanese conglomerate Matsushita bought MCA for $1.6B in 1990, and what effect that had on park operations. In 1992–1993, the concession changed back into US hands with a winning bid from Delaware North Companies. Delaware North Companies Parks and Resorts,[34] or DNC Parks and Resorts at Yosemite, Inc., is still the main concessioner, who employs some 1,800 people during summer peak season.[35]
- Info on Yosemite National Park Company and YP&CC (including the MCA purchase) added to the Curry Company info already in the article.--mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs)
- DNC mentioned. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No tracking of how many visitors per year at various points in the park's history.
- Info added. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In the human impact section, there are no general statistics describing an overview of the reduction of animal and plant species over time, and in the same vein, no overview of the introduction of non-native species such as Yellow Star-Thistle.[36] Did any animal and plant populations suffer a dramatic decrease? An increase? All we have examples of are grizzlies and bighorns. How about fish? The Great Grey Owl, Pacific Fisher, Mount Lyell shrew and Yosemite Toad are endangered. The Peregrine Falcon is a success story.
- Peregrine Falcon, Great Grey Owl, Yellow Star-Thistle (and other invasive plants) mentioned. Decrease of native plant and animals mentioned. An article on the management of Yosemite's resources would contain detail on these topics. Still looking to add a bit more to this article though. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 20:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Diseases? When did White pine blister rust come to the sugar pines?
- Rust mentioned along with when it entered California. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 14:34, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No mention of fishing or hunting, skiing or boating. No mountain biking in the backcountry or regular bicycles in the valley; no white water rafting or rock-climbing. Since this is a history article, describing the introduction or cessation of various major recreational activities seems appropriate. When was the Badger Pass ski resort built? When did cross-country skiing treks start? When was the first golf course laid? The second? When did one of them disappear?
- Impact of fishing, hunting, skiing and golf added. Opening of Badger Pass, first golf course and closing of second added. Climbing and possibly other activities to be added but, with the exception of climbing, it may be difficult to put other activities in a historical perspective. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs)
- Mention of climbing and Camp 4 added. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs)
- What years did the Cadillac dealership operate?
- That is more appropriate for the Yosemite Valley article. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How much poaching historically; how much today?
- Poaching mentioned. I could not find any RS that specifically answers your question though... Any pointers? --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs)
- How could they possibly cancel Firefall, an admittedly popular spectacle?
- Reason added. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- When did lumbering begin in the park? 1905? In the 1920s, the National Forest Service tried to take/seize/transfer 30,000 acres of Yosemite National Park lands, rich in sugar pine trees and including two important sequoia groves.[37] The article hints that lumbering petered out in the 1940s. However, some kinds of logging continue: as late as 2004 an injunction was made to stop logging in Yosemite Valley.[38]
- I looked but could not find a RS saying when logging began or ended in Yosemite. What we have are indications that logging started some time before Muir arrived and was banned outright in designated wilderness areas. I assume there has been some selected logging permitted outside the wilderness areas but can't confirm that. Any suggestions? --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 18:57, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I looked through the two relevant books I have, and came up empty on the extent and time frame of timber usage and logging. Binksternet (talk) 23:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The boundaries of Yosemite have changed over time. How, why and when?
- More info added about that. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Linda Greene's 1987 History should be used much more heavily as a very high quality reference.[39](PDF) or [40](HTML)
- Many cites from that work now added. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In 2002, plans were thwarted that would have put an airliner-capable airport near Yosemite, to serve the area. Are there other significant plans that did not happen?
- How much pavement has covered Yosemite over time? How many parking spaces?
- Mention of acreage under parking lots added. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- When was the jail built?
- Greene 1987, p. 561 gives a date of between 1880 and 1890 but also says that the jail has not historical significance. So it will not be mentioned in the article. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- One initial impression is that the fight over Hetch Hetchy Valley is devoid of actors who first pushed for its use as a reservoir—there is only the Muir/Pinchot argument mentioned. How about SF Mayor (later Senator) James D. Phelan who used USGS surveyor Joseph B. Lippincott as his flunky, to establish rights to the river's water? Phelan filed for the water rights in his own name, not the city's. UC Berkeley professor Gray Brechin writes briefly of it here. Pinchot's involvement is not explained in the article; one would expect him to be on Muir's side from his avowed love of conservation, but he was instead aligned with Secretary of the Interior James R. Garfield and President Roosevelt, who backed Phelan's suggestion that the Hetch Hetchy Valley could be used for the betterment of the greater SF Bay Area, while preserving the Yosemite Valley from the same fate—the one sacrificed for the other.
- Thank you for the suggestions! I'll address each point once I'm done citing the article in its current form. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:17, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the above is being addressed as I go through the sources I used to write this article. Still working. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 23:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some updates made above. Still working on addressing remaining issues. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 01:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Smashing work!! It gladdens the heart to see the article given new life. Binksternet (talk) 23:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks :) Science is more of a strong point for me than history; it is often hard for me to figure out what is important to mention. Your pointers have helped a lot. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 15:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Smashing work!! It gladdens the heart to see the article given new life. Binksternet (talk) 23:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I was bold and went into the article to some proofing-type editing. On the whole I believe the article is comprehensive. I had printed the article on April 29 so I could read a paper copy and REALLY like the subsectioning and rearranging of the Human Impact section. Good job!! Bettymnz4 (talk) 17:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the kind words and edits! :) --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs)
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern brought up in the FAR section include referencing, images and comprehensiveness. This has been at FAR for a month, so moving it here to give it a bit of a push. Dana boomer (talk) 22:46, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hold - I'm still working.--mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 11:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]Keep holding Lots more material added and article is getting a bit long. Longer sections will need to be reorganized and possibly condensed once the expansions are done.--mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 21:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please ping me when you're farther along and I'll have a look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll take another stab hopefully before the weekend if I'm not too tired after work. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 02:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Still needs quite a bit of referencing work and improvements, there are wholly uncited sections/paragraphs, etc etc. Hopefully this will soon be addressed and up to FA standards. -- Cirt (talk) 16:42, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]- All paragraphs are cited now. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update - All paragraphs now cited at least once, all image concerns addressed, comprehensiveness concerns acted on or explained why they are not appropriate, article re-organizized, and citing done as far as I can see. I'm now happy with the article. Anything else needed? --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm working in bits and pieces as I have time. Dates in citations are all messed up-- some are ISO, some are month day, year and some are day month year. Most of the image captions are incorrectly punctuated (WP:MOS#Captions). Also, logical punctuation, WP:PUNC. More recent history is a bad section heading, per WP:MOSDATE#Precise language. Ellipses have spaces, WP:MOS#Ellipses. I'll keep chipping away. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There's some text in "Recreational activities" that doesn't seem related to History, and seems to belong in the main article, if anywhere. I'll work more on the text after the issues above are cleaned up-- pls ping me again if I forget! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:55, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed all of the minor MOS issues, save for the "more recent history" heading, which Mav will need to fix. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! --mav (reviews needed) 00:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed all of the minor MOS issues, save for the "more recent history" heading, which Mav will need to fix. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "More recent history" changed to "Mid 20th century and later." --mav (reviews needed) 19:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Stricken my above comment, nice work on the referencing improvements. -- Cirt (talk) 14:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. This is a considerable piece of work, and the citation issue has largely been addressed, but not quite. For instance, every direct quotation has to be cited, but this one from the More recent history section isn't: "Back then little regard was given to historic preservation, the thought being that the 'highest use' was preserving and restoring natural scenery." I'll leave you to ponder on what Tony1 might say about "the thought being", but I don't think he'd be eulogising over it.
- Rewritten to "Little regard was given to historic preservation; the highest use was thought to be the preservation and restoration of natural scenery." All quotes now cited. --mav (reviews needed) 19:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A few other points:
- Some of the capitalisation doesn't seem consistent. For instance, throughout the article we see "Valley" and "valley", when apparently referring to the same thing, as in "... saw the major features of the Valley laid out before them (they named the overlook Mt. Beatitude). Attached to Savage's unit was Dr Lafayette Bunnell, the company physician who later wrote about his awestruck impressions of the valley". In addition, if it's going to be "Valley", then I don't see why it's not also "Park" when referring to the national park, rather than "park".
- Changed "the Valley" to "Yosemite Valley" in many places and simply de-capped Valley in others. A few "Grove"s fixed as well. --mav (reviews needed) 19:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Since then, 89% of the park has been set aside ...". The MoS suggests this and other similar occurences in the article ought to be written "89 percent".
- Fixed throughout article. --mav (reviews needed) 19:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The writing is still unclear and awkward in a few places. For instance, in the lead: "Access to the park by tourists improved in the early years of the park ...". Access by tourists improved? Shouldn't this be for tourists?
- Rewritten to "Conditions in Yosemite Valley were made more hospitable to humans and access to the park area were improved in the late 19th century." --mav (reviews needed) 19:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the capitalisation doesn't seem consistent. For instance, throughout the article we see "Valley" and "valley", when apparently referring to the same thing, as in "... saw the major features of the Valley laid out before them (they named the overlook Mt. Beatitude). Attached to Savage's unit was Dr Lafayette Bunnell, the company physician who later wrote about his awestruck impressions of the valley". In addition, if it's going to be "Valley", then I don't see why it's not also "Park" when referring to the national park, rather than "park".
Malleus Fatuorum 19:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments and edits - I'll address each point this weekend. --mav (reviews needed) 00:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Each point addressed and Malleus Fatuorum's edits used as a guide to find and fix similar issues. --mav (reviews needed) 02:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Demote. Poorly written. There's an awkwardness about the whole thing. Here are examples from the top. It needed a good, thorough treatment by copy-editors and others at the start of this process. Put it out to pasture and re-nominate, I think.
- The opening sentence is faulty; this is not a good sign: "The known history of the Yosemite area started with Ahwahnechee and Paiute peoples who inhabited the ...". "the" after "with"; a comma before "who".
- Rewritten to "For over 3,000 years Sierra Miwok, Mono, Paiute, and other Native American groups have lived in the central Sierra Nevada region of California that now includes Yosemite National Park." --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Second sentence: comma after "time" ... or ... I'm unsure what the intended meaning is. Um ... "When the first ... area in [when?]".
- Rewritten to "When European Americans first visited the Yosemite area, a band of Miwok-speaking Native Americans called the Ahwahnechee lived in Yosemite Valley." --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Were ceded to CF by whom or what? Oregon?
- Federal government added. --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Jurisdiction was under? This is odd. "The park was first under the control of ...". But when? Forty years or four months before "1917"?
- Rewritten to "The U.S. 4th Cavalry Regiment had jurisdiction over the national park from 1891 to 1914, followed by a brief period of civilian stewardship." --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Euro-American" is unfamiliar: does it mean "European"?
- Changed to "European American" --mav (reviews needed) 18:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "California" not linked and then linked. First time (if at all, for such a well-known entity—isn't there a better link, to a section in or daughter article to the "California" article?).
- I hate the practice of linking to subsections. Link removed. --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Where there's an "of" to the right put a "the" to the left: "The development and use of".
- Each instance of "of the" checked to see if that sentence was missing another "the" and fixed as needed. --mav (reviews needed) 20:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Stubby sentence boundaries, for example: "James Savage was running a mining operation and trading camp on the Merced River 10 miles (16 km) west of Yosemite Valley by 1850.[12] He ran a similar camp near Mariposa."
- Mention of second camp deleted b/c it did not have a cite. First sentence changed to "James Savage ran a mining operation and trading camp on the Merced River 10 miles (16 km) west of Yosemite Valley." --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "On Thursday, March 27, of that year"—bumpety-bump.
- Day of the week is not important so removed. Actual year added. --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony (talk) 12:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You, at least eventually, have indicated on each of my other FACs/FARs you have commented on that you were OK with the prose. So I don't see why I won't be able to copyedit this article to your liking. Will conduct a big copyedit session on Saturday. --mav (reviews needed) 00:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Specific points addressed above. I'll make sure to keep those in mind as I complete my copyedit to fix similar issues. --mav (reviews needed) 18:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update 2 Another big copyedit done. Prose is hopefully up to FA standard now. If not, please tell me what still needs to be fixed and I'll fix it. --mav (reviews needed) 23:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold since significant work is being done on the article and issues are being addressed.
- Here are some things to look at after a quick look at some isolated parts:
- "Administrators in the National Park Service felt that a single concessionaire in each national park would be more financially sound." Then later in the section it talks of concessionaires plural. Policy changed in the intervening time I presume but since the point was raised by the article it makes sense for it to be discussed more satisfactorily.
- Changed to "Administrators in the National Park Service felt that limiting the number of concessionaires in each national park would be more financially sound." --mav (reviews needed) 17:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Expansion of recreational activities has also impacted the park environment." I'm not a fan of the verb impact and the form impacted in particular. I associate it with dentists giving bad news.
- Changed to "Expansion of recreational activities has affected the park environment." --mav (reviews needed) 17:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Feeding and viewing of American black bears was encouraged by park concessionaires." When? Even today? Also discussion of brown and black bears might be better combined in the same paragraph. The intervening paragraph about other animals seems awkward.
- When that was stopped is answered later in that paragraph. But I removed the sentence since it was redundant. Black bear para moved to be below brown bear para. Too much info for a single paragraph. --mav (reviews needed) 17:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The Wildlife section doesn't seem to give an overall sense of the state of wildlife health and seems more like a patchwork of isolated facts. It's unclear if native wildlife diversity is going down, stabilizing, or rebounding. Are conservation efforts having any noticeable effect?
- I'll see if I can find a RS to add a sentence about that, but this is a history article, not an article on wildlife management. --mav (reviews needed) 17:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I looked but could not find any comprehensive statement from a RS on the health of the Yosemite ecosystem or the overall effect that changes in policy have brought. All I can find are more examples of success stories and changes in policy whose aim is to advance preservation efforts. --mav (reviews needed) 16:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I may have changed some of these myself but I don't know if you'd prefer more control and to do it yourself during this review. If you don't mind my making my own edits, note that here and I'll make more proactive edits in the future if I see any quickly fixable items. Lambanog (talk) 13:30, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please feel free to copyedit all you like. :) I can't edit much at all during the week (brain is too tired after work to think much). But I will address each of your points this weekend. --mav (reviews needed) 01:20, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep referencing and other issues have now been sorted Tom B (talk) 00:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist.I've had a look through this article again since I made my initial comments, and I agree with Tony1 that it remains awkwardly written. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that if this was presented at FAC today then it would fail. I appreciate the work that's been done on this during the review, but there's a great deal more still to be done. Malleus Fatuorum 01:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Any specific examples? I addressed each point raised by you and Tony and used those as a guide to find and fix similar issues. Do I need to revisit those? I've never had a FAR or FAC fail due to prose issues. But I'd like to improve my writing as needed. --mav (reviews needed) 21:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I reviewed each of your edits to the article and conducted another copyedit to catch issues similar to those you fixed and others I found. --mav (reviews needed) 02:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Revisited to spot-check.
- "Galen Clark was appointed by the commission as the grant's first guardian but neither Clark nor the commissioners had the authority to evict homesteaders. Josiah Whitney, the first director of the California Geological Survey, lamented that Yosemite Valley may meet the same fate as Niagara Falls at the time; become a tourist trap where proprietary interests place tolls on every bridge, path, trail, and viewpoint." Desperately needs a comma before "but". Do you mean "may have met", or perhaps "would meet"? I can't get a handle on the temporal meaning. The semicolon—I can't work out the relationship between the before and after.
- Revised to "The commission appointed Galen Clark as the grant's first guardian, but neither Clark nor the commissioners had the authority to evict homesteaders. Josiah Whitney, the first director of the California Geological Survey, lamented that Yosemite Valley would meet the same fate as Niagara Falls. At that time, Niagara Falls was a tourist trap that had tolls on every bridge, path, trail, and viewpoint." I think I get your point and will look for and fix other examples of missing commas and time inconsistency. --mav (reviews needed) 12:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "appropriated $60,000 to compensate the settlers.[38] Hutchings received $24,000 in compensation for his loss.[38]". A clearer relationship between the sentences would result from "appropriated $60,000 to compensate the settlers, of which Hutchings received $24,000.[38]" And the 38,38 consecutive ref tags are not desirable if one can avoid it.
- Done. I was trying to break-up a long sentence before but I'll look for and fix other similar issues. --mav (reviews needed) 13:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Access to the park and conditions in Yosemite Valley improved for tourists under Clark's on and off stewardship through 1896. Life on the valley floor was plagued by mosquitoes and the diseases they carry. So in 1878 Clark used dynamite to breach a recessional moraine in the valley that impounded a swamp behind it.[18] Tourism significantly increased after a Sacramento to Stockton extension of the First Transcontinental Railroad was completed in 1869 and the Central Pacific Railroad reached Merced in 1872."—"under Clark's on and off stewardship"—not compulsory, but I'd be inclined to hyphenate "on-and-off". But more serious is my inability to piece together the meaning of those four sentences. Perhaps it's my problem, not that of the prose, but ... (1) something good arose from his on-and-off stewardship? OK, but it's not straightforward. (2) "impounded" is hard to get ... do you mean "that had been trapping the waters that formed the swamp", or something like that? (3) So was it the dissipation of the swamp, the mosquitos and the disease that led to the increase in tourism, or was it the completion of the railroad. Or both. My head is spinning. (4) 1896 then we fling back in time, confusingly.
- Revised to: "Conditions in Yosemite Valley and access to the park improved under Clark's on-and-off stewardship through 1896. In 1878, Clark used dynamite to breach a recessional moraine in the valley to drain a swamp behind it.[18] Tourism significantly increased after a Sacramento to Stockton extension of the First Transcontinental Railroad was completed in 1869 and the Central Pacific Railroad reached Merced in 1872." I'll try to find other cases of confusing prose and fix that as well. --mav (reviews needed) 13:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's the first three paras in my spot-check. I'm sorry, I feel like a heel, but I really think this prose is not of FA standard. And it's been here for two and half months? Tony (talk) 14:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll fix each of those examples and look for and fix similar issues. --mav (reviews needed) 12:14, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- All above examples fixed. I'll fix similar issues later. --mav (reviews needed) 13:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Similar issues found and fixed. Lots of commas added to distinguish independent clauses joined by conjunctions, dates, and quotes. I think fixing these commas significantly addresses the "awkward prose" concern. --mav (reviews needed) 16:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hold - Still working on fixing remaining prose issues. Big yard project this past weekend took up all my free time, and energy. :)--mav (reviews needed) 00:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Looks very good to me. I like how much it has improved. —hike395 (talk) 10:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update 3 I have commented on and tried to address all above concerns. I think the main current objection, to "awkward prose," mostly stems from missing commas. Many commas have been added and several extensive copyedits conducted. These copyedits not only attempted to address specific examples brought up, but tried to find and fix similar issues that were not mentioned.
- At this point, I could really use the help of an experienced copyeditor again to check the prose, since I've read and edited the prose so many times that is becoming difficult to find additional things to fix. I want to improve my writing, so specific examples from the article along with what rule of grammar is being violated will be most helpful. Direct edits are also welcome; I will make sure to study them to learn. It is hard to find sentences that are hard to understand when you already have memorized the meaning behind those sentences. --mav (reviews needed) 16:54, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. A lot of recent work has gone into this, and I think the improvements have really helped the article. I do not think, however, that the prose can be whipped and smoothed into shape such that the article tells the reader a compelling story about how the Yosemite area took shape. As it stands, the article is a patchwork quilt of themes; all of them important, but none following a sort of journey that takes the reader from place to place, event to event, carrying him along with eagerness to read the next sentence. I am proud of the article—it delivers the right amount of information—but I cannot see approving it for FA. Binksternet (talk) 03:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please be more specific. What type of "themes" are you talking about? If they are content themes, then it would seem that removing some themes and concentrating on others will lead to comprehensiveness issues. If the "themes" you mention are organizational, then I see at least one valid point concerning the ==Human impact== section, which does not follow a semi-chronological order. Everything above that section *does* follow a semi-chronological order, which seems to me to be a good way to organize a history article. I've long wanted to move that section to its own article and merge much of the historical info into the rest of this article. I will try to address your concerns either way. Just please be more specific to make your declaration actionable. --mav (reviews needed) 23:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I did another copyedit, this time from the end of the article to the start of it, to force myself to look at the text with a more fresh eye. Some more issues were fixed as a result. --mav (reviews needed) 02:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - The article gives a nice historical overview of the Yosemite area. Hyphenation does not always comply with MOS:HYPHEN. I will go into the article and make the corrections with detailed notes in the comment area. Bettymnz4 (talk · contribs)
- Thanks for your edits and declaration. --mav (reviews needed) 02:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Seems that I haven't expressed an opinion yet, so here it is: Issues brought up during the FAR, lack of citations, content and image problems, have been addressed. Issues with prose brought up during FARC have been addressed by several extensive copyedits. I took care to look for and fix other issues similar to the specific examples brought up. Whether or not these efforts are adequate remain to be seen, but I will continue to address specific and actionable issues. --mav (reviews needed) 02:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have completed an additional round of copy editing (Sorry about the commas, Mav; they didn't work). Good luck with the review. :-)) --Diannaa TALK 00:18, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Excellent - thanks so much! :) --mav (reviews needed) 01:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have completed an additional round of copy editing (Sorry about the commas, Mav; they didn't work). Good luck with the review. :-)) --Diannaa TALK 00:18, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Mav, it would probably benefit you to ping the users above who have voted to delist and work closely with them until you at least get their delists stricken, if not an outright support. An article is not going to be kept here with three outstanding delists, especially from such experienced FA-writers as Malleus and Tony. Dana boomer (talk) 01:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Taking this one at a time. Tony pinged. --mav (reviews needed) 17:22, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Still waiting for Tony... --mav (reviews needed) 13:18, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- While we wait for Tony, I pinged Lambanog. --mav (reviews needed) 03:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No need to ping me. My delist vote stands, I'm sorry to say. I have hunted for actionable advice, but I didn't find enough to make me think it could be fixed. I think the qualities of this article are such that it will never be able to smoothly tell the tale of the history of the area. I think that with the varied sources and the many topics covered, it will always be jumpy and patchwork in its prose. I fully support it as a GA article, but not FA. Binksternet (talk) 06:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Wait a minute. The use of many different sources and covering many different aspects of a topic are exactly what is called for in the FA criteria. If you can't be more specific on how that harms the flow of the prose, then I think your delist declaration is not actionable. --mav (reviews needed) 11:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update 4 - All specific and actionable concerns have been (hopefully adequately) addressed and used as examples to fix similar issues that were not specifically mentioned. Other copyeditors have also helped. We are just waiting for those people who mentioned those issues to either strike their delist or hold declarations or provide more actionable and specific items that need to be fixed. --mav (reviews needed) 14:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist - Frankly, terrible sourcing.File:Cross-country-skiing-2-6.jpg - Needs a verifiable source per WP:IUP.- But the file is PD-Self and uploaded by the copyright owner. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We can't rely on the copyright tag. Did the uploader take the picture him/herself, upload it for a friend, find it on a website? There needs to be an explicit assertion of authorship. Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image removed. --mav (reviews needed) 01:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We can't rely on the copyright tag. Did the uploader take the picture him/herself, upload it for a friend, find it on a website? There needs to be an explicit assertion of authorship. Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- But the file is PD-Self and uploaded by the copyright owner. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Stephen Mather and WB Lewis in Yosemite in 1925.jpg - Albright died in 1987. Copyvio?- Albright was an employee of the NPS at the time; changed tag to PD-NPS. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does the source indicate that this was taken in performance of his official duties? Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've never seen any government photo make such a claim. Albright would visit national parks as part of his official duties. Given the subject of the photo, reviewing a road route, I doubt that he was on a social call when he took this photo. But I commented out the image pending confirmation of PD status. --mav (reviews needed) 01:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Does the source indicate that this was taken in performance of his official duties? Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Albright was an employee of the NPS at the time; changed tag to PD-NPS. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Fallen Monarch and F Troop of US Cavalry.jpeg - If the author is unspecified, what is the basis for claiming government authorship?- Scanned from an NPS guidebook, which itself is PD (and the image is not listed as being under a separate copyright in that book; the book says that the default is that the image is part of the park's collection). It is also a photo of a U.S. military unit so this might be PD-USMil, but since we don't know, the generic PD-USGov seems appropriate. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The US government is not precluded from holding copyrights, so being in the collection in and of itself isn't sufficient. When was the guidebook first published? It may be PD if it was published before a certain date without notice or if the notice wasn't renewed. Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image commented out pending PD status check. --mav (reviews needed) 01:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The US government is not precluded from holding copyrights, so being in the collection in and of itself isn't sufficient. When was the guidebook first published? It may be PD if it was published before a certain date without notice or if the notice wasn't renewed. Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Scanned from an NPS guidebook, which itself is PD (and the image is not listed as being under a separate copyright in that book; the book says that the default is that the image is part of the park's collection). It is also a photo of a U.S. military unit so this might be PD-USMil, but since we don't know, the generic PD-USGov seems appropriate. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:John Muir Cane.JPG - Source says taken in 1907. Creation is not the same as publication. What is the basis for claiming pre-1.1.1923 publication?- I can't find the original publication, so commented image out. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Pillsbury photo of Yosemite Valley.jpg - Arthur Clarence Pillsbury died in 1946. Why is it being claimed he's been dead more than 70 years? PD-US would be appropiate for 1922 publication.- Good point, changed. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Lafayette Bunnell 1880.jpg - In the US, author lifetime is only relevant for non-published works. This is a published work. Why is a PMA tag being used?- Changed to PD-US. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Yosemite Valley from Inspiration Point in Yosemite NP.JPG - Needs a verifable source.- Source added. I took the photo. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Miwok-Paiute ceremony in 1872 at current site of Yosemite Lodge.jpeg - Why is PMA +70 being used when the author is unknown?Эlcobbola talk 12:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Scanned from PD NPS booklet and not listed at end as having restricted copyright. Changed to PD-USGov. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there a general authorship disclaimer? Appearance in a government work does not necessarily mean a work isn't copyrighted or of government authorship. Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Found the author, Eadweard Muybridge, who died in 1904. Tag changed to PD-old. --mav (reviews needed) 01:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there a general authorship disclaimer? Appearance in a government work does not necessarily mean a work isn't copyrighted or of government authorship. Эlcobbola talk 14:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Scanned from PD NPS booklet and not listed at end as having restricted copyright. Changed to PD-USGov. --mav (reviews needed) 23:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Malleus pinged while we wait for Tony and Lambanog. --mav (reviews needed) 19:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Still waiting for Malleus, Tony and Lambanog. --mav (reviews needed) 01:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments. While this has undoubtedly been improved during the months it's been here I still think that it's awkwardly written and doesn't meet the prose requirements for an FA. Sure, most of the sentences are technically correct now from a grammatical perspective, but there's no cohesion between them. The whole article reads like an almost random collection of loosely related facts with no thought given to creating any kind of narrative flow. An example:
Scotland-born naturalist John Muir first came to California in March 1868 and immediately set out for the Yosemite area. Muir studied the area's plants, rocks, and animals in mid-1869 while employed by rancher Pat Delaney to accompany his sheep and sheepherder. Muir operated Hutchings' sawmill after working for Delaney. Articles written by Muir helped to popularize the area and increase scientific interest in it. Muir was one of the first to theorize that the major landforms in Yosemite Valley were created by large alpine glaciers. This view contradicted established scientists such as Josiah Whitney who regarded Muir as an amateur (see geology of the Yosemite area). Muir also wrote scientific papers on the area's biology.
He came to California? That implies the article was written in California. Why is it relevant to the history of the Yosemite area that Muir operated Hutching's sawmill after working for Delaney? Does it matter to this article where he was born? We're not told where many other of the characters described here were born. If I want to know any of Muir's personal details I can click on his link. Paring this down to its essentials and combining what are clearly two related and too small paragraphs we might get something like this:
Immediately following his arrival in California in March 1868, naturalist John Muir set out for the Yosemite area, where he found work tending to the sheep owned by a local rancher, Pat Delaney. Muir's employment provided him with the opportunity to study the area's plants, rocks, and animals; the articles and scientific papers he wrote describing his observations helped to popularize the area and to increase scientific interest in it. Muir was one of the first to suggest that Yosemite Valley's major landforms were created by large alpine glaciers, contradicting the view of established scientists such as Josiah Whitney, who regarded Muir as an amateur.
I'm not suggesting that's perfect, and I'm sure it could be improved, but I am suggesting that there's a sense of narrative flow in it that's missing from the original. There are also still some straightforward discrepancies that I wouldn't expect to be seeing after all these months. For instance why is it "central Sierra Miwoks" but "Southern Sierra Miwoks"? Surely both should be capitalised, or not? Perhaps strangest of all, after having read this article several times I still have no clear idea of what is meant by "Yosemite area". Is it the Yosemite Valley, a part of the valley, the area around the valley, or something else?
Copyediting, in my opinion anyway, isn't just about checking the spelling and grammar, it's about checking the overall quality of the writing as well. I'm afraid that this article still needs a lot of work. Malleus Fatuorum 12:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for taking another look and suggesting changes. I get your point and will edit the article accordingly. --mav (reviews needed) 13:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow - thanks for all the edits! I'll let you finish and will make sure to use those as examples as well. --mav (reviews needed) 16:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll just be popping in and out from time to time, so feel to press on. I just wanted to offer a few more examples of the kind of thing I'm talking about, and how I'd go about trying to get a better narrative flow. One thing that I think really does need to be clarified right at the start of the lead is where exactly this Yosemite area actually is. Is it the area now covered by the park, for instance? Despite my comments above, I'd really prefer to see this article improved to the point where I could in all conscience at least strike my oppose, especially after all the hard work you've put into trying to save it. Who knows, keep at it and I might be persuaded. Malleus Fatuorum 17:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Process started. More work this weekend. Thank you again for all the edits! --mav (reviews needed) 21:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll just be popping in and out from time to time, so feel to press on. I just wanted to offer a few more examples of the kind of thing I'm talking about, and how I'd go about trying to get a better narrative flow. One thing that I think really does need to be clarified right at the start of the lead is where exactly this Yosemite area actually is. Is it the area now covered by the park, for instance? Despite my comments above, I'd really prefer to see this article improved to the point where I could in all conscience at least strike my oppose, especially after all the hard work you've put into trying to save it. Who knows, keep at it and I might be persuaded. Malleus Fatuorum 17:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Edit pass done, using your edits as a guide. What else is needed? --mav (reviews needed) 21:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment File:Dairy herd grazing in Yosemite Valley in 1918.jpeg has questionable licensing. It's sourced to a 1989 publication, yet claims to have been published before 1923. I've no doubt that the source indeed dates the photo to 1918, but it's atypical that a listed date would be publication. I suspect, rather, that the 1918 is the date of creation, which is irrelevant to the determination of PD status of published works. As I can't review the source, however, I don't know for certain that this is so (i.e. won't vote delist), but it is something that ought to be confirmed by the uploader. Эlcobbola talk 17:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Source is not clear so I removed the photo. Thanks for striking resolved issues. --mav (reviews needed) 21:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: I suggest we keep this FA status for now, there is no additional comments about it. --JJ98 (talk) 18:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. This article has been steadily and significantly improved since the Review was started. All significant issues have now been addressed. Jayjg (talk) 05:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update 5 Malleus Fatuorum graciously completed a copyedit to fix many flow-related issues throughout the article. I used that as an example to look for an fix similar issues. What else still needs to be fixed? --mav (reviews needed) 22:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Mav has done some good work during this review, sufficient to persuade my to strike my delist vote. Malleus Fatuorum 23:29, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 01:01, 30 June 2010 [41].
Review commentary
- Notified: Wikiprojects. Author inactive.
This article is lacking sources in many paragraphs. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How do you work out the author is inactive? Please be more specific in your criticism. --RobertG ♬ talk 06:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm counting 46 references; could you be more specific? Also: in which way is the article now worse than when it was promoted in early 2006? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- With reference to the sources, could we get an indication of the precise problem? As far as I can see, the sources provided substantiate the content well. I think, perhaps, the nom may be confused since the footnotes provide reference for the overall paragraphs (which, in my view, is a better practice than footnoting every sentence from the same source). So, unless a specific problem is noted, I would say Keep FA. Eusebeus (talk) 12:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yellowmonkey is right, you know:
- Last paragraph of "Youth and studies" — unsourced.
- First and last paragraph of "Tristan and serialism" — unsourced.
- First, third and fourth paragraphs of "Birdsong and the 1960s" — you guessed it, unsourced.
- "An operation prevented his participating in events to celebrate his 70th birthday, but in 1988 tributes for Messiaen's 80th birthday around the globe included a complete performance in London's Royal Festival Hall of St. François, which the composer attended, and Erato's publication of a seventeen-CD collection of Messiaen's music including recordings by Loriod and a disc of the composer in conversation with Claude Samuel." and "Messiaen had also been composing a concerto for four musicians he felt particularly grateful to, namely Loriod, the cellist Mstislav Rostropovich, the oboist Heinz Holliger and the flautist Catherine Cantin. This was substantially complete when Messiaen died, and Yvonne Loriod undertook the final movement's orchestration with advice from George Benjamin." under Transfiguration are large chunks of unsourcedness.
- "Much of his output denies the western conventions of forward motion, development and diatonic harmonic resolution. This is partly due to the symmetries of his technique—for instance the modes of limited transposition do not admit the conventional cadences found in western classical music." in "Music" is unsourced; what does "this" refer to?
- Third paragraph of "Music" is unsourced.
- Last paragraph of "Western artistic influences" — still unsourced.
- Entire "Time" and "Time and rhythm" sections under "Symmetry" are unsourced, as is the "Birdsong" section further down.
- Article overall feels very, very bloated and tl;dr at times. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 18:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- My word. I hope the author of this substandard piece of crap doesn't show his face - you'd give him what for!
- I don't think any of the information in the article is unsourced. I didn't make any of it up. The options for what happens next seem to me to be as follows. You could provide individual footnotes for each piece of "unsourced" information, which you could easily do by reading the references provided. It seems you are contesting some of the material in the article, in which case you could splatter {{fact}} tags on each item and add one of those pretty {{refimprove}} banners at the top. You could delete the "unsourced" information (which may not be perceived universally as an improvement). Or alternatively you could reduce the article to "crap article" status. You might even ask nicely whether anyone is willing to help, in the hope that someone might engage positively with this process - because its purpose is currently inscrutable. Best wishes. --RobertG ♬ talk 22:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment:
No alt text is provided; all online links are live; as noted above, there are many unreferenced passages - saying it is there in the cited works is not good enough, we need page numbers. Some of the statements in the uncited sections would constituite WP:OR if they remain uncited. The purpose of a GAR is to bring the article back to up to featured status. Sarcastic comments like those above don't help, please assume good faith and observe the civility guidelines. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 22:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have added alt text for all images, but not the icons, as I understand that that is not necessary. Please feel free to improve my alt text. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 23:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I am in utter admiration of your descriptive abilities, those passages of alt text are wonderful.
- After thinking about your other comments, I unreservedly apologise. It's the modern way, isn't it? Those who are offended must apologise to those who caused the offence because the latter's motives must be held to be beyond reproach. Be that as it may, I found TenPoundHammer's tone ("you guessed it...", "tl;dr" - is that a shorthand that I should understand, or was it careless typing?) snide, patronising and condescending. It is very easy to bring a catalogue of criticism to a page such as this. It seems transparently obvious that criticism is potentially disheartening to contributors. That is why TenPoundHammer's lack of sensitivity seemed calculated to cause offence.
- There was no sarcasm on my part, I assure you, only sadness and incomprehension.
- It seems I must be in the wrong place, a fish out of water, here. I respectfully withdraw from this process. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The discussion of this review is not the first to raise questions about the credibility and value of such reviews. I have observed pretty much the same reaction from long-standing and knowledgeable editors at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Witold Lutosławski/archive1, Talk:Egardus#GA Reassessment and Talk:Music of the Trecento#GA Reassessment & ff. It seems that if an editor wants to avoid the frustration generated by a review, not nominating an article is the only option. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: TenPoundHammer's "tl;dr" comment refers to Wikipedia:Too long; didn't read; I'll refrain from commenting on how such a remark reflects on those, reviewers especially, who make it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have added alt text for all images, but not the icons, as I understand that that is not necessary. Please feel free to improve my alt text. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 23:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My recommendation to anyone who cares about the article: let the FA squad delist it. It's a better article now that it will be if you add all sorts of irrelevant citations in order to satisfy a group of people who wouldn't know a piece by Messiaen if a little bird sang it in their ears. Article assessments by people who don't know anything about the subject aren't worth seeking out. If the Classical Music community satisfies the demands of FA now, will we give in again next year when they decide that the Fair-Use scores need to go? Or whatever the next, new criteria for FA happens to be? Since it was cited above, I wish I had said "delist" to Engardus at the GA to prevent a drawing of an 17th c. church from being added to satisfy the "image" criterion. Those of us interested in Wikipedia as a source of information know that the Messiaen article is one of the finest articles on the encyclopedia. And that should be reward enough. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 15:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Scrutiny is always welcome and I think we should appreciate TPH's efforts to make substantive and specific criticisms. It is true that he in all likelihood did not crack the spine of a single source provided in the article; it is also true that for those of us who are familiar with Messaien, his agoggery at certain statements may make us laugh out loud, but as this article is designed for lay-readers, the feedback is salutary. I would suggest that a judicious rephrasing of the sources provided, such as "for this and what follows, see ..." would resolve many of the problems identified. Moreover, TPH makes a good point with respect to certain sections. Yes, obviously it seems silly to have to provide close references for OM's fascination with ornithological soundscapes, but a lay reader likely has no idea, so overall a generic reference could be usefully provided. The existing bibliography is sufficient; it is merely a question of adding in a few more footnotes. Finally, if TPH feels the article is bloated and overly long, that is merely a personal caprice and has little bearing on its FA status. I feel the same way about most Video Game FAs. Eusebeus (talk) 11:31, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I wish I had been able to adopt Eusebeus's approach earlier; it is thoughtful and sensible. On reflection I would like to strengthen my earlier apology - I am sorry I overreacted. I still nevertheless have doubts about a lowest-common-denominator assessment process that requires no knowledge of the subject, and that marks verifiability by counting footnotes rather than looking at references. This is not scrutiny. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criteria of concern brought up in the FAR section include referencing. Dana boomer (talk) 00:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per above discussion. I hope that's the last thing I'll say on the subject. --RobertG ♬ talk 06:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold please I will have access to a libary in a week or so and will add the cites as necessary. This is a very stong page and only light work is needed by someone with books for a keep. Ceoil (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: On going work; I think the structure of the lead needs to be looked at. As I am now familiar with the page and the editors behind it, I can stand over the level of citations; adding page numbers to statements broken by para breaks is trivial. Ceoil (talk) 22:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How is work going on this? It would be great if we could get some editors in here soon to make declarations and get the article through the process... It's awesome to see work being done on the article! Dana boomer (talk) 01:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I still see a lot of uncited text. Has Ceoil been pinged? Tony1 might be willing to take a look-- it's up his alley if anyone wants to ping him in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:20, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have pinged Ceoil and left a note for Tony to see if he's interested in working on the article. Dana boomer (talk) 23:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I still see a lot of uncited text. Has Ceoil been pinged? Tony1 might be willing to take a look-- it's up his alley if anyone wants to ping him in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:20, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How is work going on this? It would be great if we could get some editors in here soon to make declarations and get the article through the process... It's awesome to see work being done on the article! Dana boomer (talk) 01:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. Lots of referencing problems throughout the entire article. Multiple portions of wholly unreferenced paragraphs. Not up to FA standards, not even up to GA standards. -- Cirt (talk) 16:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note. I have posted a request on the talk for additional cites. I think this ask will be very easily met, my impression is that RobertG has a very strong grasp of both subject and sources. I am now very familar with the page (less so with the music but have dallianced and been rewarded), and can attest to the fact that this is one of the best informed and inciteful classical music article we have. I think Cirt is expressing a drive by, on to the next one openion and is just wrong. If I wasn't such a nice person I would say "Cirt your opeion is lightweight and means nothing to me." But I am very nice, so I won't. Ceoil (talk) 14:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- RoberG has indicated that he will meet my demands, but is preoccupied for a few days - something about IRL, dunno. Hold once again pls Dana, with thanks for your appreciated patience. Ceoil (talk) 17:30, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The article will be held for as long as you need it to be - we would always rather see the article improved and kept than hastily delisted. Reviewers should hold off on delist votes until Ceoil and company are finished. Dana boomer (talk) 01:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold - Most of the paragraphs now have at least one cite and work is on-going to cite the others. --mav (reviews needed) 22:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This one is worth saving, IMO. I've looked through the lead, and added "one of the most important composers of the 20th century"—does anyone think otherwise? Can the pic at the top be brightened? Is the copyright tag OK? Can I fiddle with the brightness and re-upload? Tony (talk) 10:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- How is this progressing, gentlemen? From the history it doesn't look like much has happened over the past couple of weeks, and there's not much happening on the talk page. An update would be nice, and when the main editors feel they have completed the necessary work, it would be good to get some other reviewers on this so we can get it off the FAR page :) Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 03:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Closing note - This article has been at FAR for almost three months, and work has been completed to improve the article during that time. During the FARC period, only one fairly vague delist was entered and more work was completed, so this review is being kept. If editors still feel that there are problems with this article, they are encouraged to bring them up on the article's talk page. If there are still significant problems with the article after a minimum of three months, the article may be brought back to FAR. Dana boomer (talk) 01:03, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Dana boomer 17:29, 29 June 2010 [42].
Review commentary
I think that this article is very detailed and generally well-written. maybe some alt. text could be added to the images.
I am nominating this featured article for review because it is deficient WRT Criterion 3 (Images—no alt. text, aside from the one I did as an example; image placement needs auditing, particularly where text is squashed by left–right placement) and Criterion 1a the prose in places. Tony (talk) 09:07, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment There are copy-edit and citation needed tags. Some citations are missing bibliographic information, while others are certainly not high-quality (such as http://populstat.info/Oceania/australc.htm). The internation rankings section should be pruned and at least partially (if not completely) moved to a different article. There doesn't seem to be even a mention of the most recent decade in the history section. Despite the issues, though, I think the article looks saveable. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:49, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I say vote off a few images before providing alt text as there are too much YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't agree with that, although some could be moved around, and the sizing made more consistent. What are all these strange links above? Johnbod (talk) 13:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems to sandwich both sides in a lot of places YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 23:25, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- One particular peeve I have is the chocolate-box image of parliament house. Makes me want to puke, and I'm sure the architects recoil in horror. Either remove or find a better one? Tony (talk) 13:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- PS I have no idea why those links appear above. I did everything I could to follow the directions, but alas, things went wrong. Tony (talk) 14:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The toolbox picks up links to any FAC or FAR that has the word "Australia" in it, I'm afraid. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Wel heh, they missed the Invincibles ones then....YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 23:24, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The toolbox picks up links to any FAC or FAR that has the word "Australia" in it, I'm afraid. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't agree with that, although some could be moved around, and the sizing made more consistent. What are all these strange links above? Johnbod (talk) 13:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I say vote off a few images before providing alt text as there are too much YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern include prose, referencing and images. Dana boomer (talk) 19:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Started reffing some, although the apathy is depressing YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've started adding alt text (removing a couple of unimpressive images in the process and swapping over another image where a FP is available). Nick-D (talk) 07:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- WikiProject Australia seems to be like a ghost town. It is hard to know why, but a great pity. Tony (talk) 08:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The main congregation point is at WP:AWNB, but even still it is very quiet there nowadays YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 10:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, alt text is no longer required for FAs. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "The population grew steadily in the following years; the continent was explored,..."—This seems to be an unsatisfactory (stubby) statement, in the lead. I can't work out what to do with it.
- I am uncertain whether anyone is a "member of" ANZUS, which is a rather elderly treaty of which NZ's status is highly problematic. People wonder whether it's just a hoax. Perhaps it shouldn't be listed prominently alongside and ahead of APEC, WTO, etc. in the lead. Tony (talk) 08:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- WikiProject Australia seems to be like a ghost town. It is hard to know why, but a great pity. Tony (talk) 08:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh dear. Some of the unreferenced sections need a bit of buffing (with refs), and I am not entirely sure they are correct. The prose isn't as bad as I feared. Will need a couple of weeks yet but this is eminently doable (just a bit bland - bit like eating McDonald's really and I have to really dig a bit to find the enthusiasm for it...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well ... Australia is bland. Tony (talk) 13:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Healthcare is missing, at the moment it only says that aborigines are in a bad state. It also seems as though the list of names might cause a problem, as about 5-10 current actors are on there in contrast to 6 sportspeople ever. I would have thought that sport has a greater impact on the national consciousness, and although the film part talks of the industry, film must surely be much less economically weighty than a whole pile of things. The prose is rather ad hoc and runs into the back of itself sometimes but is fixable once the content is dealt with YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 23:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good observation about healthcare, and agree about ad hoc nature of bits. The unreferenced bits read the worst IMO. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Where's your patriotic spirit, Cas? :P —Dark 11:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good observation about healthcare, and agree about ad hoc nature of bits. The unreferenced bits read the worst IMO. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Healthcare is missing, at the moment it only says that aborigines are in a bad state. It also seems as though the list of names might cause a problem, as about 5-10 current actors are on there in contrast to 6 sportspeople ever. I would have thought that sport has a greater impact on the national consciousness, and although the film part talks of the industry, film must surely be much less economically weighty than a whole pile of things. The prose is rather ad hoc and runs into the back of itself sometimes but is fixable once the content is dealt with YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 23:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- For the refs I've put the links in as raw, because apparently there is a tool that can do it for us; if it fails it can be done manually YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems quite limited to include education as a sub-section of demography in my opinion. The sourcing could be fixed within a week, the prose might take a while. —Dark 11:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Would there be any objection to removing this photo from this history section of the article? It's low quality and is jingoistic in this context, particularly as there's already a photo which represents Australia's military history. A photo of a key part of Australia's post-war history would be more appropriate (the Sydney Olympics perhaps?). For what it's worth, I'm the editor who originally uploaded this photo to illustrate the Battle of Kaiapit article. Nick-D (talk) 10:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No objection YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Photo removed Nick-D (talk) 10:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No objection YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment — Have I missed where it says that aborigines weren't allowed to be counted in the census until 1967. Surely they were previously counted as flora and fauna? I'm thinking this is very notable. Anyway, why in the WW1 bit does it not mention that Australia had the highest casualty rate, per population, of any Allied force? Just from glancing there is heaps of things that could be added. Why is the Largest cities in Australia table under the education sub-section? And what's the basis for inclusion for a sports person in the culture section? Aren't we adding any AFL players to this list because other countries wouldn't have heard anything abouth them? Same with Rugby League, I guess. Ted Whitten, Ian Stewart, Royce Hart, Dick Reynolds, Leigh Matthews, John Coleman, Graham Farmer, Ron Barassi, Bob Skilton and Wayne Carey could all claim to be part of the sporting persons list. I personally think it could get a bit ridiculous. Aaroncrick TALK 07:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I've been tipped off that Daniel (talk · contribs) thinks that Tim Cahill, Rafter and Ponting should be on here. Well to pre-empt him, I don't think Cahill is world-beating (plays in a medium club blah blah) unlike the rest on that list, and as for Rafter, Rosewall and Goolagong won 8 and 7 individual grand slams. Ponting, well, apart from Bradman, the next cluster of cricketing greats are a bit closely matched, how do we pick them, although Warne is always in the top5 [in world history] of all polls YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Another person has added Pat Cash (1 grand slam). I say remove him YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Pat Cash? — don't think so... I think the list needs some sort of criteria. Warne — yeah; Ponting — no, unless being our most capped cricketer is notable? Aaroncrick TALK 07:35, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- If we're going by the criteria of soccer club status, Harry Kewell will probably be considered more notable than Cahill (formerly playing for Liverpool and all that). That being said, soccer is hardly a strong sport for Australia; and our best soccer stars would probably be considered ordinary by world standards. Personally, I am reluctant to consider including any soccer players in the article. —Dark 10:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And yes, include Warne and exclude Ponting. —Dark 10:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To make things easier I think we should just use the Sport Australia Hall of Fame that is reffed and select from the "legends" class of about 20-odd. Although that doesn't seem to let people in until they are very old. Thorpe is not in the "legends" yet, although Lindrum is. As for possible undue weight on swimming, it is Australia's strongest sport. Been #2 very often in a fully global sport, Cash won one grand slam when many Swimming World Swimmers of the Year were Australian (given that the World #1 often wins 2 or more slams per year), which Cash did not. Leisel Jones, Hackett, Libby Lenton, Klim > Cash, and probably so does Cadel Evans ha ha ha. I think we should ignore AFL, they never win anything for Australia because only half a country plays it, and RL, well three countries play it. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Valid point, but every state bar Tasmania has a team in the AFL. And AFL is easily the most popular sport in Tasmania and it still hosts 4 games a year so it's not just played in half the country. I know your meaning that in QLD and NSW it isn't very popular but they will soon have four teams between them. Aaroncrick TALK 05:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's AFL, 'nuff said :) In the international scale, AFL is not very popular but nor is English billiards. However I am okay with a brief reference to AFL's popularity (heaven forbid), as long as we do not include any AFL players as our stars. On the issue of billiards, the game was popular a few decades back, and Lindrum was the undisputed king of that "sport", therefore I would not oppose the mention. In swimming, Thorpe needs a mention. The Hall of Fame does have quite a bias against recent sportsmen though. In tennis, I would suggest that the Woodies are mentioned. —Dark 08:33, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The legends status seems to have a formal or informal exclusion of people until they are 2 decades old. Thorpey has to be the standout. 4X World Swimmer of the Year in a fully globalised sport. And most Olympic medals ever. As for AFL there are players from NSW/QLD but how many of the top 100 are from there? As for the media, what a joke, for them Travis Cloke is a superstar and Andrew Lauterstein is not. They used to play youth football together. Hauritz is so maligned despite being in the top 15 in the country, yet the 100th best AFL player is a great star. Lol YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's AFL, 'nuff said :) In the international scale, AFL is not very popular but nor is English billiards. However I am okay with a brief reference to AFL's popularity (heaven forbid), as long as we do not include any AFL players as our stars. On the issue of billiards, the game was popular a few decades back, and Lindrum was the undisputed king of that "sport", therefore I would not oppose the mention. In swimming, Thorpe needs a mention. The Hall of Fame does have quite a bias against recent sportsmen though. In tennis, I would suggest that the Woodies are mentioned. —Dark 08:33, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Valid point, but every state bar Tasmania has a team in the AFL. And AFL is easily the most popular sport in Tasmania and it still hosts 4 games a year so it's not just played in half the country. I know your meaning that in QLD and NSW it isn't very popular but they will soon have four teams between them. Aaroncrick TALK 05:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- To make things easier I think we should just use the Sport Australia Hall of Fame that is reffed and select from the "legends" class of about 20-odd. Although that doesn't seem to let people in until they are very old. Thorpe is not in the "legends" yet, although Lindrum is. As for possible undue weight on swimming, it is Australia's strongest sport. Been #2 very often in a fully global sport, Cash won one grand slam when many Swimming World Swimmers of the Year were Australian (given that the World #1 often wins 2 or more slams per year), which Cash did not. Leisel Jones, Hackett, Libby Lenton, Klim > Cash, and probably so does Cadel Evans ha ha ha. I think we should ignore AFL, they never win anything for Australia because only half a country plays it, and RL, well three countries play it. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And yes, include Warne and exclude Ponting. —Dark 10:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Another person has added Pat Cash (1 grand slam). I say remove him YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- On another note, perhaps it might be worthwhile to expand on Australia's multicultural nature? I'm seeing negligible references here and there about how different cultures play an influence on society, but the points are half formed. The four-line literature paragraph is too short. Music is non-existent. —Dark 10:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It all has to be severely rationed; that is the challenge. And naming people means excluding people, so one must be very careful of POV. Let's remember there are daughter articles, so summary style at this highest level is at issue.
- Getting rid of flag icons would be a good move. And on that topic, more authority comes from cool understatement, something Australians are not known for, regrettably. Just think: the British have Shakespeare, the Germans have JS Bach, the Russians have Tolstoy, and we've got ... WAAAAAAAARney.
- Let us also be vigilant against myth-making. Galipoli, however it's spelt, is interesting and important, but I quail with embarrassment when it's trumpeted as a turning point, some great tragedy: 20 million Russians died in WWII. The losses in Turkey were piffling by comparison, and the result of puppy-dogging to the British at that. Tony (talk) 09:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay - healthcare text:
- Australia introduced Universal health care, known as Medibank, in 1975. Reworked by successive governments, its current incarnation, Medicare came into existence in 1984. It is now nominally funded by an income tax surcharge known as the Medicare levy, currently set at 1.5%.
Question is...where to put it? Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cas, it seems perfectly worded to me. Nice. Tony (talk) 14:19, 16 April 2010 (UTC) PS, I pay 2.5%. Tony (talk) 14:20, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (sigh) I know it's perfectly worded...question is, where to put it...in economics? Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh you brilliant thing, you. I think another subsection, "Health system", is required under "Education". One could expand the issue a little ... hospitals, the stupid private health insurance system, aged care: just a brief mention of which level of government does which (at the moment). Surprising there's no daughter article. I'd rather have the subsection on the supernatural industry under all of them. Tony (talk) 16:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (sigh) I know it's perfectly worded...question is, where to put it...in economics? Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cas, it seems perfectly worded to me. Nice. Tony (talk) 14:19, 16 April 2010 (UTC) PS, I pay 2.5%. Tony (talk) 14:20, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — Could info on the climate be expanded? Aaroncrick TALK 23:00, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll take a look. was musing on rewording the soil bit too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Should scientific research be mentioned anywhere. Professors Blackburn, Bragg, Florey, Oliphant, FM Burnet, Terry Tao? YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:59, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Been thinking about this - in thinking of restricting this to really prominent folks - was leaning on leaving it out really. I suspect scientists are somewhat less nationalistc than are sportspeople (?) Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough, you're research, content and prose are still needed sir! YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- groan - I know. Not too far now but still some stuff to do. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough, you're research, content and prose are still needed sir! YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Been thinking about this - in thinking of restricting this to really prominent folks - was leaning on leaving it out really. I suspect scientists are somewhat less nationalistc than are sportspeople (?) Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — Would a brief mention of Alec Campbell — our last surviving Australian participant of the Gallipoli campaign — be notable enough? And he was of course born in Launceston, Tasmania :) Seriously, he was also part of Australian Legends — commemorative postage stamps issued by Australia Post. Aaroncrick TALK 03:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Given the size of the article, I'd be inclined to leave it out. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article is okay. --Oei888 (talk) 00:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: Skimmed through the article. Some repetitiveness with words in the Demography section, a sample: "The Indigenous population—mainland Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders—was counted at 410,003 (2.2% of the total population) in 2001, a significant increase from the 1976 census, which counted an Indigenous population of 115,953." Maybe it could be rephrased so the subject isn't mentioned twice and another verb used to avoid repetition.
It's a short compact country article and follows the 100k recommended, but it may be lacking in detail. Australia is mentioned as an ally of the United States and also interested in Asia but there is no mention of the Korean War or the Vietnam War or SEATO. Perhaps ultimately they weren't important to Australians and don't need to be included but the absence is interesting. Also according to the article "Although agriculture and natural resources account for only 3% and 5% of GDP respectively, they contribute substantially to export performance." Then what represents the bulk of GDP? With the two pictures on the economy related to natural resources and exports, undue weight is possibly being put on those facets of the economy. Lambanog (talk) 16:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I reduced the sentence you pointed out. The Vietnam War was prominent, moreso than the Korean War or SEATO. Need to read up on my Australian export notes. BTW Agriculture/farming is strongly part of the Australian psyche, so is not all about fiscal input. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Notes: WP:OVERLINKing everywhere (example, president, immigration); raw URLs in citations ( http://80.83.47.230/n_results.fwx); missing info in citations (example, http://www.themonthly.com.au/encounters-shane-maloney-nellie-melba-enrico-caruso--160 citations should include date and author when available), and missing access dates. This article currently fails 2c-- I saw other, more substantial prose issues, but no use in detailing those until the citations are clean. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree about the overlinking. Most general words currently linked as of today are somewhat easter egg-y but valid. e.g. 'desert' links to Deserts of Australia and many similar. Agree about referencing needing an overhaul though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The two Sandy specified were overlinks, IMO, and I removed them. I found very few items to unlink apart from these. Tony (talk) 06:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree about the overlinking. Most general words currently linked as of today are somewhat easter egg-y but valid. e.g. 'desert' links to Deserts of Australia and many similar. Agree about referencing needing an overhaul though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gentlemen, how is work on this progressing? I see that work has been happening on the article, but periodic updates here on the review page would be nice. It would also be great to get to a point where we can start to bring in some outside reviewers to start the finishing polish. Dana boomer (talk) 00:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold - As YM is still actively working on the article. --mav (reviews needed) 22:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I find these big ones really heavy going. I do feel we owe core encyclopedia articles like this one and Canada extra time to keep them featured though. I'll try and help some more. I do think it is not far off a keep. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Especially true for vital articles like this one. Very hard to get it right. --mav (reviews needed) 01:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- State of play deep into injury/stoppage time.....Okay, there are no cite needed tags left. The article is densely sprinkled with references except for paragraph 4 of Geography and climate section. As far as I know, all requests for further information on comprehensiveness grounds have been addressed to this point. The prose could proably do with some tweaking but I doubt any drop-dead clangers remain.
- Needs a copyedit YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I find that less monotonous than hunting refs, so will have a play with the prose. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Needs a copyedit YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- State of play deep into injury/stoppage time.....Okay, there are no cite needed tags left. The article is densely sprinkled with references except for paragraph 4 of Geography and climate section. As far as I know, all requests for further information on comprehensiveness grounds have been addressed to this point. The prose could proably do with some tweaking but I doubt any drop-dead clangers remain.
- "Australian cities rank among the world's highest in terms of cultural offerings"—what, rugby league is a cultural offering? It's not something I'd be harping on about right up there in the lead—Western European readers might be perplexed, or misled. "It" refers to "quality of life? Ah, no, "Australia".
- I removed it as it is rather nebulous. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm a bit wobbly about this claim: "[Brown's] book was not instrumental in the adoption of the name [Australia]: the name came gradually to be accepted over the following ten years.[25]" Now, ref tag 25 leads to "Estensen, p. 450", but am I missing something? Estensen's book, article, whatever it is, can be found nowhere in the bibliography. How reliable is it, anyway? To claim that the name "Australia" was "gradually accepted", unlike a negative claim, needs greater justification, I think. Interesting issue, isn't it, so does anyone have access to Estensen? On the prose quality, we have "the name: the name"; and "over the following ten years" since what year? I'm confused.
- "...and on 12 December 1817 recommended to the Colonial Office that it be formally adopted.[26] In 1824, the Admiralty agreed that the continent should be known officially as Australia.[27]" It's odd that we have a date for the recommendation but just a year for the official acceptance (seven years later!); but we can live with that. What does make me uncomfortable is that ref tag 26 leads to Weekend Australian, 30–31 December 2000, p. 16" (wasn't it "The Weekend Australian"?). This is the supplement the journalists to used to refer to as "the colour comic"; oh they can be cynical, can't they. Anyone got a copy so we can see what their sources were? Presumably, the acceptance year wasn't mentioned in that source, but only in the federal Dept. of Immigration's source. Sorry to be fussy, but I'm just trying to get my head around the whole thing.
- "Human habitation of Australia is estimated to have begun between 42,000 and 48,000 years ago,..."—the ref tag is to "Gillespie, Richard (2002), "Dating the First Australians". pp. 455–72. http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/Gillespie02.pdf." Hasn't there been an update of this estimate in the past eight years, based on (i) genetic analysis, and/or (ii) more accurate estimates of the land-bridge window? The daughter article says "The consensus among scholars for the arrival of humans of Australia is placed at 40,000 to 50,000 years ago, but possibly as early as 70,000 years ago.[1][2]", with [1] a source from 2008 and [2] from 1998—presumably both sources came to the same conclusion, the same ranges?
- "The Torres Strait Islanders, ethnically Melanesian, were originally horticulturalists and hunter-gatherers." Wow, this is a striking claim that may well be true: a clear distinction is made between the aboriginal people (not horticulturalists) and the Torres Strait Islanders (horticulturalists), by implication. "Originally", I presume, means on their arrival in the TSIs around 42,000–48,000 years ago. Is this true? It's hard to believe they grew crops then. BTW, the daughter article makes not one mention of TSIslanders. There is no mention of horticulture in the daughter article of the daughter article. BTW, there's a very iffy Timeline_of_Australian_history. Tony (talk) 14:51, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OMG Tony you're such a killjoy. I did read Guns, Germs, and Steel recently, and I think the conservative estimate comes out looking okay. The evidence for earlier is tenuous I think (?? - damn I wish I still had the book!) Yeah, teh TSI bit bugged me too and would be good to get right. (sigh) off to work....Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — The is used quite often in the lead and begins to become annoying. For the population figure in the lead, we should at least say when the figure was released. Also the more specific figure in the infobox could cause some confusion. Aaroncrick TALK 03:20, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed a couple of them. Hard when many thingies use it in their names (eg The Pacific...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:28, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I feel climate needs explaining further. What about the comparisons in weather between northern Australia and Tasmania? The difference in humidity and how the northern cities gets a lot more rain than the southern capitals, ie Adelaide, Melbourne and Hobart. Aaroncrick TALK 03:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Added a bit - feel free to add some more from the BoM page, but remember this is a general oz page so there is a daughter climate article to deal with it in more detail. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That's good, thanks. Aaroncrick TALK 07:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Added a bit - feel free to add some more from the BoM page, but remember this is a general oz page so there is a daughter climate article to deal with it in more detail. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This really is getting stale, and I think we're approaching crunch time. Could we write out a list of issues that need to be dealt with? Then I will volunteer to leave messages at the WikiProject, the talk page, etc, saying that it's going down the gurgler unless there's action. Tony (talk) 14:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Tony could you perhaps have another run through the prose? Aaroncrick TALK 07:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What would be great is if everyone could strike off issues they feel have been addressed. I have some material to look at again to look at some prehistory issues - Aaron are you happy with climate now? Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll try to have a look tonight. I'm surprised that some of the regular editors at this article vanished as soon as the review process began. Tony (talk) 04:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just looked at the lead, Ety and History. They're in good shape. Just one thing: "The final constitutional ties between Australia and the UK were severed with the passing of the Australia Act 1986, ending any British role in the government of the Australian States, and closing the option of judicial appeals to the Privy Council in London." Didn't the Act end the British role in the federal government of Australia, too? Tony (talk) 05:20, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Closing note - This article has been at FAR for three and a half months. No delist votes have been presented during the (long) FARC stage, and extensive work has been completed on the article. As such, the default close is to keep. If any editor disagrees with this, they are invited to bring further problems up on the article talk page and, if needed, renominate the article at FAR in no less than three months time. Dana boomer (talk) 17:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Dana boomer 02:25, 23 June 2010 [43].
Review commentary
- Notified: Talk:Israel(article), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Arab world, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Asia, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish history, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries(projects) User talk:Tariqabjotu, User talk:Gilabrand, User talk:Okedem, User talk:Jayjg, User talk:Telaviv1(top 5 contributors)
- The following could also be notified if neccasary since they have commented recently: User talk:Paine Ellsworth, User talk:Ravpapa, User talk:Drork, User talk:Nableezy, User talk:Tiamut, User talk:FormerIP, User talk:JGGardiner, User talk:Dailycare, User talk:Ani medjool, User talk:Noon, User:nsaum75, User talk:Breein1007, User talk:RomaC, User talk:Sean.hoyland, User talk:No More Mr Nice Guy
I am nominating this featured article for review. I originally started kicking the idea around due to an edit war over three neutrality tags regarding how to address the capital. The capital issue has been back and forth for weeks(at least) and the question of how to address the largest city has also popped up. There has been ongoing discussion which so far has been inconclusive. Mediation was attempted but was not accepted. I noticed a handful of other issues while looking into it. My thoughts are that this article is fixable within a couple of weeks, but that a review is necessary to keep it on track and to hold it to the highest standards. Delisting also needs to be a possibility if issues are not taken care of. My concerns are:
- The edit warring has declined but the tags are still back and forth as seen in the edit history. This conflicts with 1.e (stability). Some people say it is neutral while some say it isn't. This leads to a possible infringement of 1.d. This is an issue that might be better handled by mediation or AE, but it is not OK to be ongoing in an FA. How to handle "capital" in the lead and the infobox is the concern.
The first citation is like nothing I have seen, but I assume it is not acceptable. It looks to be a several refs combined with the quote parameter.Someone made this a note instead of an inline citation.Cptnono (talk) 06:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a sync template on the subsection "Conflicts and peace treaties". It may or may not be needed since I do not see a discussion initiated by the editor who placed it. I think there may be some weight issues with the section since it is in the history section but disregards most history not related to international affairs or the Palestinian issues. It could also be a concern with summary style or prevalence over other aspects. I really don't know on this one and removing the tag might be fine.
- The original tagger is fine with the tag gone after he included: ""The position of the majority of UN member states is reflected in numerous resolutions which say that any actions taken by Israel to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on Jerusalem are illegal and have no validity whatsoever.". Another editor mentioned clean up o the section on the talk page but it no longer appears to be a major concern.Cptnono (talk) 00:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Alt text is needed[44]
- Dead links need to be addressed[45]
Tagged for citation needed for "Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE." and again with "Emigration from Israel (yerida) to other countries, primarily the United States and Canada, is described by demographers as modest" (although the later is not clear why since there is a citation needed).- Some eyes on inline citations might help. The other day someone attempted to tag (incorrectly) and it was removed instead of being addressed. As soon as someone added a ref it was fine, so a once over by some new eyes might help to ensure nothing was missed elsewhere.
The "Transportation" section could use a couple more lines.WP:NBSP. Non breaking spaces are needed in the measurements (figures and abbreviations).Cptnono (talk) 11:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]Km->mi conversionsCptnono (talk) 11:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Minor ref clean up (
Title case,date format,pages, link/not to link work and publishers, bare refs, etc) Cptnono (talk) 13:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cptnono (talk) 14:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I see nothing here that warrants a review. Dead links can always occur. I don't know what you mean by alt text, since your link doesn't work. The sync template seems meaningless to me, and I will remove it, as no one has explained it. There will always be some conflict, but the mere placement or removal of a tag are not grounds for de-listing. Before opening a review, please raise these points on the talk page, or fix them by yourself - why is this the first time I see mention of dead-links or alt text? Even FAs require some maintenance. okedem (talk) 15:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The only obvious issues I can see are that it's overlinked, has 13 dead links, and needs alt text. That could all be fixed without bringing it to FAR. If the content has deteriorated, it could be restored to the version that was promoted. [46] SlimVirgin TALK contribs 15:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I've fixed a few dead links, and added some refs and tweaks, and removed some of the more obvious low-value blue. I'd like to do more, but the text is full of citation templates, so I won't be able to copy edit it. It's very slow to load for the same reason. I'd also like to add here that there are/were dead link tags going back to October 2008, which shouldn't really be happening on an FA. The people who wrote and nominated it might want to consider increasing their maintenance of it. :) SlimVirgin TALK contribs 16:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I actually was the one who proposed we focus on the lead which went from maybe working to strong opposes within the last couple f days with editwarring on the tags still continuing. I also brought up the first citation, the sync tag, and transportation on the talk page. The point of this FAR is not to have it demoted. I will make a effort myself in keeping it FA but desisting it should be a an option if improvements are not made. I added some image descriptions just now and will grab some of the alt text.Cptnono (talk) 02:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Image problems
File:Israel-flag01c.jpg: Confused license. This appears to be a cropped version of File:Israel-flag01.jpg which is identical to this Flickr image, which was uploaded to Flickr with an "All rights reserved" tag.
- That doesn't seem to be in the article. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 16:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's the lead image in Template:Aliyah. DrKiernan (talk) 16:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) Sorry, it's on a template, which is why it didn't show up in search. Dovi uploaded File:Israel-flag01.jpg in 2006, and the Flickr upload is 2009, [47] so it looks as though they took it from us. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 16:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I asked the Flickr uploader to change licence, and he's done that. Seems he was involved in taking the image. [48] SlimVirgin TALK contribs 11:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Herzl-balcony.jpg. Incorrect license. The picture was taken in Switzerland, not in the EU. It is in fact a doctored version of this image taken from the Bettmann archive, which is for sale. No evidence of first publication. No evidence that the image is in the public domain.
- Was published before 1923; I fixed the tag. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 16:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:JerusalemMountains.jpg, File:DargotViewByEranGalil.jpg: missing descriptions
- File:Weizmann Truman 1948.jpg: as the restrictions that apply to the photo are "undetermined", how do we know that this is public domain?
- I assume this is OK with the Copyright status of work by the U.S. government tag. It is from [49]. Is the copyright tag correct?Cptnono (talk) 01:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The source says that the restrictions are "undetermined" and does not say that it is a US government work. How do you know that the tag is correct? DrKiernan (talk) 08:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah. We don't. I have poked around the page but am not coming up with anything that will hep. Delete this one? Follow-up: I have nominated this for deletion at commons. The lack of a author made it to big of a question mark.Cptnono (talk) 00:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- RemovedCptnono (talk) 09:56, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And it is now back. It needs to be removed.Cptnono (talk) 01:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:Merkava4 MichaelMass01.jpg: missing permission
- I see GNU and Sharealike 3.0. Am I not understanding correctly?Cptnono (talk) 01:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The copyright owner of the image is Michael Mass, but there is no evidence that he has given permission for his image to be uploaded and used here under a free license. We need permission from the copyright owner, perhaps sent by OTRS or to permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org. DrKiernan (talk) 08:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Understood. I'll shoot a message over to the uploader.Cptnono (talk) 00:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Follow up: OTRS was successful. Cptnono (talk) 09:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The external links should be trimmed, in particular the government links need not be duplicated. Some effort should be made to trim the page as a whole, currently the download time is very long, which reduces accessibility for people on slow connections/older computers/less advanced countries. DrKiernan (talk) 15:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the load time is because of the citation templates. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 16:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that the eternal links section is too long. It comes across slightly bloated with or without the page loading time. The external links I would remove are: The maps section (keep Wikipedia Atlas), Media section, and maybe a few others. Should the Hebrew cites be relinked to their English versions?Cptnono (talk) 01:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Made an additional inquiry on the talk page about this. I will more than likely remove a handful if there is not a response.Cptnono (talk) 09:56, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
None of the issues here are major or warranting an FAR. Aside from the capital point, none of these have gotten any attention, including from you, on the talk page.
- I'm not sure anyone has a clue about what the sync tag is there for. Recently, someone inquired about it, but I don't think there was a definitive answer. It should probably just be removed because no one has explained its significance.
- Okay, alt text, something that wasn't part of FA criteria two years ago, is needed. So fix it.
- Yes, dead links need to be fixed. Not that difficult.
- The thing about the two citations is a bit pedantic. FAs aren't automatically protected from further edits. Nothing stops someone from adding unsourced information or tagging sentences with citation tags. Surely, it would have been a bit less drastic for you to, again, just fix it or at least say "maybe we should take care of X" on the talk page.
- The "Transportation" section could use a couple more lines. Okay... and why is this part of your FAR rationale?
Back to the capital issue: the capital issue will never be resolved to everyone's full satisfaction, but I think if there is an opportunity of reaching a relative peace, it is here already. The FAR is merely a distraction to a discussion that for the most part was going quite well. Unfortunately, I fear it will stymie the surprising amount of progress made over the last week with this review turning into yet another debate over the capital issue, but with the article's FA status used as leverage. The capital point is so minor a point to an article about an entire country that it should not be source of this article's downfall. -- tariqabjotu 17:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment One of the people notified as a primary author is topic-banned from IP conflict articles. They are therefore preumably unable to comment here. Do people have suggestions on how to handle this?--Peter cohen (talk) 23:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Or instead of arguing about bringing it to FAR you can start fixing it. Edit warring and unfulfilled criteria means it needs to be fixed. It would not pass FA right now if nominated as is. There is really nothing left to say about that.
- In regards to someone being topic banned: There are plenty of people already involved and I doubt one less person will prevent the article from receiving an appropriate review.Cptnono (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And activity on improving other aspects of the article not related to the capital issue has spiked since opening this review. Nice work on stepping it up.Cptnono (talk) 03:11, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I think if there is an abuse of process, it should be noted. Yes, people are fixing things, but I think that's primarily because none of these points have ever been mentioned before. First time they're mentioned, first time they're fixed. -- tariqabjotu 04:18, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- In regards to someone being topic banned: There are plenty of people already involved and I doubt one less person will prevent the article from receiving an appropriate review.Cptnono (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As I have said three times now, I mentioned several of the things. I didn't notice the alt text and dead links until using the toolbox above which is why I specifically mentioned I found other things. I don't think I have ever seen so much resistance to improving an article before. You should be embracing this opportunity. We won't even have to worry about delisting it if everything works out.Cptnono (talk) 00:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We don't need an FAR to improve the article, and to claim it's "an opportunity" is absurd. If there are issues - use the talk page or fix them yourself. This isn't the way to do things. okedem (talk) 06:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Apparently we did. It is turning out just fine. I also do think it should be delisted if edit warring continues. think it should be discussed and considered if other clean up doesn't happen. It isn't a personal thing or "punishment" as someone alluded to. It is simply not FA and needs to be made so or should have the star for being the best of the best removed. We'll see what is up at the appropriate time. Right now you should focus on improving the article instead of being upset about it since we aren't even to the delist/keep stage.Cptnono (talk) 06:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't boss people around. Criteria for FAs change (like for alt text), and links die. Once you bothered raising these issues, they were quickly fixed, by several users, myself among them. This is what article talk pages are for, and it's a shame you didn't use it before starting this whole procedure. okedem (talk) 07:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not bossing anyone around. I did use the talk page. The problems weren't resolved. Being angry about it doesn't fix the article. It also isn't necessary. Reviewing an article to see if it is still FA is a good thing. People should stop being offended by something that is not designed to be negative. Cptnono (talk) 07:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't boss people around. Criteria for FAs change (like for alt text), and links die. Once you bothered raising these issues, they were quickly fixed, by several users, myself among them. This is what article talk pages are for, and it's a shame you didn't use it before starting this whole procedure. okedem (talk) 07:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Apparently we did. It is turning out just fine. I also do think it should be delisted if edit warring continues. think it should be discussed and considered if other clean up doesn't happen. It isn't a personal thing or "punishment" as someone alluded to. It is simply not FA and needs to be made so or should have the star for being the best of the best removed. We'll see what is up at the appropriate time. Right now you should focus on improving the article instead of being upset about it since we aren't even to the delist/keep stage.Cptnono (talk) 06:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- We don't need an FAR to improve the article, and to claim it's "an opportunity" is absurd. If there are issues - use the talk page or fix them yourself. This isn't the way to do things. okedem (talk) 06:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As I have said three times now, I mentioned several of the things. I didn't notice the alt text and dead links until using the toolbox above which is why I specifically mentioned I found other things. I don't think I have ever seen so much resistance to improving an article before. You should be embracing this opportunity. We won't even have to worry about delisting it if everything works out.Cptnono (talk) 00:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment.
Article contains invalid HTML. To fix this, please see its W3C markup validation report and Help:Markup validation. It's footnote [a]. I'd fix it myself, but this footnote appears to be a battleground.Eubulides (talk) 08:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This issue was fixed. okedem (talk) 07:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 03:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This issue was fixed. okedem (talk) 07:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- comment
- I noticed today that someone updated the number of satellites Israel has launched without updating the reference. I fact tagged this in expectation that the accurate number should be confirmable. I think people should use this FAR as opportunity to check through other statistics that are likely to have grown since the initial FAC to ensure that the latest available statistics from reliable sources are used.
- Something that I raised some months ago was the claims of differences instatus of various ethnic groups. ISTR that Okedem said that Shas exagerrate differences between Ashkhenazi and Haredi Jews. I would however expect an FA to cover this and other claims of disadvantages suffered by Arabs and Ethiopian Jews using reliable sociological sources to reflext the real situation rather than the claims of oliticians ne way or the other.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I notice this edit] today. The editor has made a good faith change of Israel's GDP ranking from 44th to 42nd to match that shown in the wikilinked table of rankings. They did not change the reference. In the mean time the linked page has changed to show Israel as 41st. The description in our footnote is that the referenced page shows the rankings for 2006. However, the page now changed to 2008. Im prepared ot make the edit to the page to match these things up. However unless someone indicates that they are checking through all such similar links are up to date then I am going to vote delist' on the grounds that the evidence is that the referencing of data is steadily degrading due to edits that fail to upgrade the references at the same time as the fact is changed.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I think the major issue at stake here is criterion 1D:neutrality with regard to the claim in the lead, that Jerusalem is the capital city with no qualifications presented for this highly contentious point. Here the article isn't asserting facts about opinions as required by WP:NPOV, it's asserting Israel's claim to the city which is a clear violation. This has been discussed on the talk page, for a very long time, but no solution has been forthcoming. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 10:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, if it were to assert the claim, it would say "Jerusalem is the rightfully the capital, as it will always be, because it belongs to the Jews". It says "Jerusalem is the capital" based on the definition of the word "capital", as seat of government. Since Jerusalem fulfills this role for Israel, it's the capital. Also, plenty of sources call it the capital; many don't even mention the dispute in a single word, whereas we have a long and detailed footnote. okedem (talk) 12:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okedem, thanks for underlining exactly the editing attitude that is at the core of the problem. Concerning your point, it would make sense if you hadn't already opposed replacing "capital" with "seat of government" in the article. That the capital status is rejected universally outside of Israel is eminently verifiable (it needn't be mentioned by every source to be so) and we also have reliable sources saying explicitly that the issue is a major controversy, so per WP:LEAD we have no choice but to mention it in the lead. That, as mentioned above, is my issue with this article and the FA criteria (or Wiki criteria overall, since NPOV is a core policy that also non-FAs must comply with). Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 13:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Your conclusion doesn't follow your argument. I oppose "seat of government" because our standard terminology for country articles is "capital". Everything about Israel is a "major controversy". Israel itself is a "major controversy". However, we'd like to have an article about the country, not the conflict; Israel is an actual country, where people live and work. Despite the view from outside, there's more to it than the conflict, and we can't turn every article about Israel into a conflict article.
- I remind you that you have failed to present a single source explaining how international recognition is important in any way for a city's status as capital. You have failed to contradict the simple definition of capital as "seat of government". We are not the official UN encyclopedia, and so their position, or the positions of various governments, are of little importance.
- As I've shown, a multitude of respectable sources have no difficulty simply naming Jerusalem the capital, so it seems the importance of this is much less than you claim. okedem (talk) 15:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okedem, repeating those talking points doesn't make them any more relevant. You can find answers to them from my comment immediately preceding yours (timestamp 13:14). Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sadly, I can find no sources there, and no meaningful replies. okedem (talk) 19:17, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okedem, repeating those talking points doesn't make them any more relevant. You can find answers to them from my comment immediately preceding yours (timestamp 13:14). Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okedem, thanks for underlining exactly the editing attitude that is at the core of the problem. Concerning your point, it would make sense if you hadn't already opposed replacing "capital" with "seat of government" in the article. That the capital status is rejected universally outside of Israel is eminently verifiable (it needn't be mentioned by every source to be so) and we also have reliable sources saying explicitly that the issue is a major controversy, so per WP:LEAD we have no choice but to mention it in the lead. That, as mentioned above, is my issue with this article and the FA criteria (or Wiki criteria overall, since NPOV is a core policy that also non-FAs must comply with). Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 13:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, if it were to assert the claim, it would say "Jerusalem is the rightfully the capital, as it will always be, because it belongs to the Jews". It says "Jerusalem is the capital" based on the definition of the word "capital", as seat of government. Since Jerusalem fulfills this role for Israel, it's the capital. Also, plenty of sources call it the capital; many don't even mention the dispute in a single word, whereas we have a long and detailed footnote. okedem (talk) 12:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Israel, Encyclopaedia Britannica: "Capital (proclaimed) Jerusalem; the city’s capital status has not received wide international recognition." We must have something like this in the lead and in the infobox. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 20:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, the one source some people keep presenting, even though it's clearly in the minority, with so many sources using different phrasings. Britannica seems to be the most extreme of all sources presented. Just a few examples - Columbia Encyclopedia, Merriam-Webster's collegiate encyclopedia, and Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East and North Africa all simply say it's the capital. Many more are sources are reported in the link. okedem (talk) 20:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The EB is highly regarded, probably the most highly regarded of the standard encyclopaedias, which is why I cited it, and it's very far from being in the minority. The lead and the infobox have to be neutral. I realize that's difficult with this article, but the Jerusalem issue is a very basic point. You're not doing the article's status any favours, Okedem, to be frank. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 20:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okedem, as you know over 40 sources have been presented, that you choose to repeatedly pretend that you've forgotten about them once more underlines the editing attitude that's the root problem here. --Dailycare (talk) 22:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- No, some 40 links were presented, most of them news articles about the conflict (naturally highlighting the dispute over Jerusalem), with some official government positions (like the EU position on Jerusalem). Not a single source was presented to show that lack of recognition means it's not the capital; not a single source to show that recognition is in any way relevant to a capital status; not a single source that says that if a city doesn't have recognition, it's not really the capital.
- In contrast, plenty of sources were shown defining "capital" as seat of government, and plenty of sources simply state Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. These are not Israeli sources, but general, respectable sources, who don't have any problem saying Jerusalem is the capital. This fact alone nullifies your claim, as if calling Jerusalem the capital is just "asserting Israel's claim to the city". If Oxford, Merriam Webster and Columbia, among many others, can say it - we can too. okedem (talk) 07:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SlimVirgin, I already explained the infobox and the fact that the general consensus on that was a change in the footnote format. Why are you continuing to push for more? Nobody seems to demand that but you; that matter is settled, insofar as everyone else is concerned. We are not going to change things solely because of you. -- tariqabjotu 22:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't see evidence that it has been dealt with. People are still posting here, apparently concerned, and the lead still doesn't say that the status of Jerusalem is disputed; adding a footnote really isn't enough. I urge you to stop the hostile responses, Tariq, and the attempts to personalize, which is what you did on talk when I asked there too. I came here to try to help the article retain its status. Yours is an odd way to respond to that, I must say. :) SlimVirgin TALK contribs 22:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- People are still posting here... about the infobox? No, check again; the only person who has brought up the infobox since the footnote was changed on February 5 is you. The lead? Perhaps. The infobox? No, it seems to be settled; quit raising the issue. Yes, it's personal, if that's what you call talking to you. What do you expect me to do? Say Hey everyone, stop talking about the infobox when it's only you talking about it? Please... -- tariqabjotu 23:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- About the lead. People would like to see the issue dealt with in the lead. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 23:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay... so... what's the problem again? I said I already explained the infobox, and you told me to stop the hostile responses. First, if you think anything I have said to you in this thread is hostile, you're in the wrong area of Wikipedia; far more hostile things have been said in discussions on Israel-Palestine articles (specifically far more hostile things have been said that I consider well within the realm of civility). Second, again, please read what other people have said (and this sub-thread is further exemplifying the point), and instead of furthering the capital debate here (because it's really over-played now), I think it would be better if you tried implementing one of the options under Talk:Israel#On the Table. At least they have gotten broad levels of support from both "sides" (for lack of a better term). As you'll also see there, your idea of having something about non-recognition in the lead is far from original, but I'll allow you to still be the hero by being the one who implements a solution. -- tariqabjotu 23:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- About the lead. People would like to see the issue dealt with in the lead. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 23:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- People are still posting here... about the infobox? No, check again; the only person who has brought up the infobox since the footnote was changed on February 5 is you. The lead? Perhaps. The infobox? No, it seems to be settled; quit raising the issue. Yes, it's personal, if that's what you call talking to you. What do you expect me to do? Say Hey everyone, stop talking about the infobox when it's only you talking about it? Please... -- tariqabjotu 23:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't see evidence that it has been dealt with. People are still posting here, apparently concerned, and the lead still doesn't say that the status of Jerusalem is disputed; adding a footnote really isn't enough. I urge you to stop the hostile responses, Tariq, and the attempts to personalize, which is what you did on talk when I asked there too. I came here to try to help the article retain its status. Yours is an odd way to respond to that, I must say. :) SlimVirgin TALK contribs 22:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okedem, as you know over 40 sources have been presented, that you choose to repeatedly pretend that you've forgotten about them once more underlines the editing attitude that's the root problem here. --Dailycare (talk) 22:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The EB is highly regarded, probably the most highly regarded of the standard encyclopaedias, which is why I cited it, and it's very far from being in the minority. The lead and the infobox have to be neutral. I realize that's difficult with this article, but the Jerusalem issue is a very basic point. You're not doing the article's status any favours, Okedem, to be frank. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 20:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I must apologize to Cptnono for saying he ought to have sorted things out on the talk page instead of bringing this to FAR. :-S SlimVirgin TALK contribs 23:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Appreciated. I am on the "side" that is wary of giving it too much weight. Regardless, the reverting needs to stop (it has reduced to almost nothing over the last few days). A resolution needs to be found over there to keep the tags off. Hopefully, a solution can be found (maybe what we have at the time I'm typing this) that most people consider inline with Wikipedia's neutrality standards. The question has come up many times since 2003 so it would be great to reduce the likelihood of a future fire.Cptnono (talk) 09:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SlimVirgin, it was obvious you didn't want to push the button -- perhaps because I'm too "hostile" -- so, in light of Talk:Israel#On the Table, I changed the lead sentence myself. -- tariqabjotu 16:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I must apologize to Cptnono for saying he ought to have sorted things out on the talk page instead of bringing this to FAR. :-S SlimVirgin TALK contribs 23:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I support Tariqabjotu's edit of the lead. Okedem, you appear to be operating under an assumption that there would exist a wiki policy according to which a source can't be used if it's actually about the topic being sourced. That this is not the case is putting it mildly. I again refer you to my comment above (timestamp 13:14). --Dailycare (talk) 20:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And you do not seem to appreciate that I'm not contesting the fact (non-recognition), but the relative importance of the fact. Specifically, that recognition is generally important for a capital. That, you have not been able to show. Following Tariq's edit - is this the end of it, as far as you're concerned? okedem (talk) 21:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi, your argument is, as discussed on talk:israel, not relevant to the content issue. As I explained in my edit (timestamp 13:14) what decides whether the material goes in the lead is simple: 1) is it reliably sourced? (yes) and 2) is it a notable controversy (yes). To this may be added 3) is it a notable opinion (yes, held by the UN and every country except Israel). Any musings on "true capitalness" are frankly a waste of time here, although they may be interesting in other contexts. As to your question, indeed as discussed on talk:israel I'm OK with the present wording following Tariqabjotu's edit, and won't raise the issue or support other editors raising it for a long while. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 08:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) How are things coming on this? Do those editors who supported the FAR still have issues they would like to see resolved? Dana boomer (talk) 20:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It is better for the most part. Images and sources could still use some work but the edit warring has stopped. Cptnono (talk) 01:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Alt text is present (thanks) but has some problems. I just now fixed some of these, but alt text is still missing for File:Coat of arms of Israel.svg, File:LocationIsrael.svg, File:Israel districts numbered.png, File:Is-wb-gs-gh v3.png, File:Temple Mount Western Wall on Shabbat by David Shankbone.jpg, File:Tabor068.jpg, File:Israeli sign.png, File:Israel Philharmonic Orchestra.jpg, File:Israel - Jerusalem - Shrine of the Book.jpg and File:Galfridman.jpg. Can someone please fix this? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 02:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Featured article criterion of concern include stability, neutrality, references and image licensing. Dana boomer (talk) 21:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What??? Is this really how FAR/FARC is done? The FAR basically started as a veiled attempt to rush a conclusion on the capital issue. It's been more than five weeks, and most objections -- all pretty minor -- have been addressed; heck, even that capital issue, which has been debated for years, has been resolved. Most everyone has either completely lost interest in the FAR and/or moved on to other things. But, wait! Some images don't have alt text! Oh, c'mon; this is a complete joke that warrants even less attention than I've given here. -- tariqabjotu 21:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Tariq, this article was not moved to FARC because I believed it needed to be delisted. It was moved here because, as you say, the FAR had stalled. It had not been made unmistakably clear that everyone believed the article should be kept as a FA, and so it needed to be moved here so that definite declarations could be made. Please also note that alt text has been removed (at least for now) from the FA criteria. Dana boomer (talk) 23:20, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I would appreciate it if you did not make accusations like that Tariqabjotu. If you notice the result of the edit warring was a solution that I was not a big fan of (it is fine though). At this point I completely don't know what the next step is. Another editor has started a separate FAR on the article [50]
(we don't know what happened)with several points of interest. These might be better fixed on talk since the amount of thoroughness lacking should not necessarily prevent it from keeping its status. A couple of the refs still need formatting. As mentioned above, the Truman picture is still a potential copyright violation. A few dead links still. I am happy to see the edit warring finished and one of the editors that told me off up above has been rocking it according to the history so it is much better. Not perfect but there is always room for improvement.Cptnono (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like the editor simply posted to the talk page for the review instead of to the review itself. The main review page (where I'm typing right now) is at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Israel/archive1, while the new comments ended up at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Israel/archive1. The comments can either be resolved on the talk page (if they are not resolved already), or can be moved over to here. Dana boomer (talk) 00:50, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I feel like such a dummy. I couldn't figure out where the page was but it says "talk" right up top.Cptnono (talk) 00:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have checked all the links, and fixed any dead links I could find. In any article with such a large number of links, this or that link are bound to drop dead at some point, and this should have no effect on FA status. Now, instead of complaining about a couple of mis-formatted refs or missing alt text, you could spend the same amount of time just fixing them. okedem (talk) 17:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I started trying to fix the article but all of the smack talk and edit warring really impacted any enthusiasm. So this is isn't complaining but gauging if it still meets the standards for FA. Sorry you still take offense to it since that wasn't the intention. Follow-up: Sources are still in issue as another editor mentioned above. Academy Awards were modified without a source, Jewish Virtual Library is used (I am under the impression that another editor recently took that to a noticeboard, and another Wikipeida is even used as a reference. I won't vote delist due to the recent accusations but these and similar sourcing issues need to be tackled.Cptnono (talk) 18:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Every article has unsourced changes, and it always takes a bit before someone fixes it. In this case you're talking about something that happened less than 48 hours ago, and you still bring it up as an "accusation". The "smack talk" and "edit warring" certainly shouldn't have prevented you from fixed formatting issues, or alt text.
- Now, to the point - I added a source for Academy awards, and added alt text (even though it's not a criterion now, apparently). I see no problem with JVL being used as a source - it's not used for anything contentious anyway. I don't know where another Wikipedia is used as a source - if you want to improve the article, the very least you could do it give actual details for your claims. okedem (talk) 16:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's been almost a week, and no details regarding the new supposed problems have been given. I request that this review be closed, as the article fulfills all criteria. okedem (talk) 14:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- And they atill aren't fixed. The Truman image is still used even afer removing it. References are still not up to par. Run the error check on the citation toolbar thingy if you use it. Here are a few: 103 (ref to Wikipedia article), 130 (in ref tags but is not a ref. Is it to be included w/ a ref?), 140 (bare), 199 (bare url going to the Gulfstream company). And I did go through after starting this with some edits to the refs and images. Stop asserting that I haven't.Cptnono (talk) 00:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's been almost a week, and no details regarding the new supposed problems have been given. I request that this review be closed, as the article fulfills all criteria. okedem (talk) 14:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A week ago I asked you for details about these problems, and got nothing but silence. I have ran the error check multiple times, which is how I fixed a whole lot of dead links. Surprisingly, I'm only human, and can't find everything alone. When you find something, you can either fix it yourself (took me about 20 seconds to fix the Wikipedia link issue, for instance), or at the very least explain where the problem is, so someone else can fix it. To just say "Wikipedia is used as a source somewhere" is extremely unhelpful; this article has 312 references, you know.
The Truman picture has not been deleted, so there's no reason not to use it (it's used on dozens of other pages as well). If and when it is deleted, we'll have to replace it. Anyway, if I find something else, I'll place it instead. This is not a serious issue.Update: I've replaced that picture, so the issue is moot. - Ref 130 is a footnote (those also use ref tags, despite not being refs), but I've added a source. Ref 199 goes to the Gulfstream company website - because it talks about one of their aircraft. Anyway, I replaced that link with one slightly more informative, in my view.
- Now, if you find other problems, and would like to improve the article, please share the (detailed) information here, or on the article's talk page. Otherwise, let's end this procedure. A few dead links or misformatted refs are no grounds for FA status removal. Pick any FA of comparable size and ref number, and you'll find a similar number of problems (I'm saying this because I have just performed this little exercise, though I've not been able to find an FA with quite this many references). okedem (talk) 08:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A week ago I asked you for details about these problems, and got nothing but silence. I have ran the error check multiple times, which is how I fixed a whole lot of dead links. Surprisingly, I'm only human, and can't find everything alone. When you find something, you can either fix it yourself (took me about 20 seconds to fix the Wikipedia link issue, for instance), or at the very least explain where the problem is, so someone else can fix it. To just say "Wikipedia is used as a source somewhere" is extremely unhelpful; this article has 312 references, you know.
- The formats of links are not in my view serious defects and they are fixable. The major rub in this FAR as far as FA criteria were concerned was the NPOV issue relating to Jerusalem as the "capital", concerning which there now is an agreement. The editing attitude around this article is of course unchanged, which probably will cause problems in the future but the editing attitude of concerned editors is not a FA criterion issue until it results in a specific NPOV problem. This is a "Keep FA status" comment. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. Two obvious outstanding problems are the quality of sourcing and the prose. On the sourcing first of all, the Encyclopedia Britannica is cited six times, and Encarta three times. The article should be relying on high quality secondary sources, not tertiary sources like Encarta and Britannica. A few random examples of where the prose is weak:
- From Antiquity: "Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel remained, with the Jewish religious centre moving to Galilee, establishing itself in Tiberias.[33] The Mishnah and part of the Talmud were composed during this period. At the beginning of the 12th century there were still about fifty Jewish families in that city." What city?
- From Zionism and the British Mandate: "During the 16th century communities struck roots in the Four Holy Cities ...". You don't "strike" roots, you take root.
- From Zionism and the British Mandate: "By the end of World War II the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33%." To 33% of of what? Or should that be "by 33%"?
- Fixed. Frederico1234 (talk) 20:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- From Independence and first years: "In 1956, Israel joined a secret alliance with the Great Britain and France".
- From Geography and climate: "The Israeli Coastal Plain on the shores of the Mediterranean is home to seventy percent ...". Used "%" in the example I gave above. Which is it to be? "Percent" or "%"?
- From Occupied territories: "Inner control of Gaza is in the hands of the Hamas government." What does "inner control" mean?
In short, this article needs a lot less bickering over the minutiae and a lot more looking at the broader picture. Malleus Fatuorum 17:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sourcing - out of 312 refs (way more than most FAs, it seems), you mention 9 cites of which you disapprove. I know of no policy saying use of tertiary sources is forbidden, or that their use is problematic for FAs. In the places I checked, those sources are used for very general background points, nothing really contentious or not in the consensus.
- Prose:
- "What city"? Tiberias, the city mentioned a sentence before.
- Actually, an idea "takes root"; "struck root" is the correct usage in this context. See, for example, [51] or [52].
- "33%" - Obviously, 33% of the total population (Jews and non-Jews). I see no problem here; to say "33% of the total population of Palestine" would be repetitious.
- "percent" or "%" - nitpicking.
- "inner" - changed to "internal". As in - runs the internal affairs, though borders and the likes are controlled by others (Israel and Egypt).
- okedem (talk) 20:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep listed - Every single article on Wikipedia can be improved, and that includes all FAs. Sourcing can always be better, the prose can always be polished. Sometimes prose which seems perfect to one, can appear clunky to another. The issues raised here ranged from minor to irrelevant, and this whole page feels like nitpicking. A featured article is not, and cannot be, perfect. Featured articles are the highest class here, the best of what the site offers; the best is relative, and is not an absolute standard. "Israel" is easily one of the best articles on Wikipedia, partly due to the constant (political) attention it receives. okedem (talk) 20:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I suggest that you take off your rose-tinted spectacles, and actually look at the article critically. Frankly I wouldn't even pass it at GAN in its present state, much less consider it "one of the best articles on wikipedia". I gave you a few examples of the kinds of things that need attention above, and there are many more. For instance, do you really think that insisting that a sentence such as "The Israel Defense Forces has been involved in several major wars and border conflicts ..." is fixed is merely "nitpicking"? If this article was at FAC instead of FAR it would have been slated long ago. It needs fixing, not excusing, and it needs to conform to the MoS, which it does not. If you can't fix it, and it appears that you can't, then it needs delisting pronto. Malleus Fatuorum 21:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree with you. "it appears that you can't" - That's just insulting. If you look at the article's history, you'll see that I put in countless hours of work here, fixing everything from sources to formatting to images. I did my best to address any issue raised here, as you can plainly see from the above discussion. I've also specifically addressed every point you raised here, even though I disagreed with you on some of them. okedem (talk) 07:05, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I suggest that you take off your rose-tinted spectacles, and actually look at the article critically. Frankly I wouldn't even pass it at GAN in its present state, much less consider it "one of the best articles on wikipedia". I gave you a few examples of the kinds of things that need attention above, and there are many more. For instance, do you really think that insisting that a sentence such as "The Israel Defense Forces has been involved in several major wars and border conflicts ..." is fixed is merely "nitpicking"? If this article was at FAC instead of FAR it would have been slated long ago. It needs fixing, not excusing, and it needs to conform to the MoS, which it does not. If you can't fix it, and it appears that you can't, then it needs delisting pronto. Malleus Fatuorum 21:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist unless prose problems can be addressed, and tertiary source references replaced. Malleus has only scratched the surface:
- Conflicts and peace treaties: "An internal inquiry exonerated the government of responsibility for the war..." This makes no sense to a lay reader. If there is a declared war, no-one needs to be "exonerated of responsibility" for it. There may be inquiries into legality of actions, or political debates about the war's prosecution. What is meant here?
- same section: "agreed to enter negotiations over an autonomy for Palestinians across the Green Line." this phrase makes no sense.
- same section: "On June 7, 1981, Israel bombed Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in Operation Opera, disabling it. Israeli intelligence had suspected Iraq was intending to use it for weapons development." no reference, and not clear why this is included in this top-level article.
- same section: "more than a thousand people were killed in the ensuing violence, much of which was internal Palestinian violence." repetition of the word violence, and in any case, what is meant by "internal Palestinian violence"? clashes between Palestinians? violence within Palestinian territories?
- same section: "At the end of the 1990s, Israel, under the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu," proably need to have been told in the preceding sentence that Netanyahu became / was elected (which?) PM after Rabin's assassination.
- same section: "Despite neither the Qassam launchings..." Who or what is Qassam? It hasn't previously been mentioned.
That is just a selection from a single section. A separate comment: I found the Religion section strangely brief and empty, when one considers the depth of religious diversity, history and indeed conflict in this country. Very wierd not having a single reference in the material about Jerusalem (and yet three whole sentences, with refs, about Baha'i), no mention of pilgrimage, prayer at the wall... I know one should not have too much detail in a top-level article, but one should also weight things according to their importance in the context of the article subject, and we are talking about Israel here. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "An internal inquiry..." - This makes perfect sense when you read the sentence before it ("Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack against Israel... Israel successfully repelling Egyptian and Syrian forces but suffering great losses"). I've clarified, however.
- "...Green Line" - rephrased.
- "Operation Opera" - Added source. A very important point in Israel's history, with the first long-range force projection, and an important precedent for all current discussions of a possible Israeli attack in Iran.
- "Netanyahu" - elected in a special election, several months after Rabin's assassination (Peres was PM in the interim). I don't think this is a major point, and as Rabin's assassination is mentioned in the sentence before, there's no need to repeat it.
- "Qassam" - You're right; also, there's no need for the name of the thing anyway. Fixed.
- I'll address the other points later. okedem (talk) 07:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I raised a couple of points above and I want to clarify where we have reached on these.
#One was that I had noticed that a number of statistics had changed and that when some people had updated them, they didn't change the references. I know Okedem has done some work around this, but I don't know exactly what he has done. If it hasn't been fully addressed this would be a delist issue for me, but it might have been.Now addressed per Okedem comment and AGF.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- I also think that there should be some reference to various claimed inequalities between different demographic group. I don't think it should be hard to identify some sort of sociological research on this matter which would give basic facts. I haven't seen a response to my comment on this. It would also be useful if some previously uninvolved editors could comment on my view that this should be included, as this has been a subject of discussion between Okedem and myself in the past.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Peter, when you raised the statistics issue a while back, I went over every single number in the article, and made sure it's properly sourced. Hopefully, I didn't miss anything. (Just to clarify my position, as you mentioned me - I don't think the inequality claims have any place in the main article; their importance isn't that high. To properly address the issue, one would have to detail the claims, the facts, and the various possible reasons. This would be a long discussion, and would burden the article. Perhaps I'm being pessimistic - if someone can come up with a fair, concise piece about this, I won't object). okedem (talk) 18:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - How is work coming on all of the above comments? The objections by two experienced FA writers and reviewers (Malleus and Hamiltonstone) need to be addressed before this article can be kept... The editors should feel free to bring in help to resolve the prose concerns. Dana boomer (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- While I disagree with the level of importance the editors ascribe to the issues raised (and outright reject some of them), I accept that some things can be improved. If you check out the edit history there you'll see that a lot of work has been done in the last few days, and there's more to come. I'll post here when it seems we're done with this round of improvements. okedem (talk) 06:44, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold - As there seems to still be significant improvements being done to address FAR concerns. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs/PRs) 17:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Notes: WP:OVERLINKing galore, inconsistent dates in citations, missing info in citations (ex: stars return to action), and please fix the unspaced WP:EMDASHes to confrom to WP:DASH. That's a brief start. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I apologize for the time this is taking. I'm mostly alone in this, I'm afraid, so work is progressing rather slowly. I do think I've made significant improvements so far.
- I think all the citations are okay now, but seeing as there are 336 of them, please let me know if you see something I missed.
- According to WP:DASH, em-dashes should not be spaced.
- Can you provide some examples of over-linking? I don't see any abundance of irrelevant links, but maybe I'm just missing them. okedem (talk) 14:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Some links *look* like overlinks b/c they are in fact Easter eggs. For example, socialist links to Labor Zionism. By itself, a link to what is expected by looking at that linked word, would be an overlink. But my question is this; why link to that word at all if you are not going to spell it out in the prose? I like more explicit linking than that. --mav (reviews needed) 01:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okedem, how is work coming along on this? Please feel free to ping the editors who have commented above to ask them to revisit once you feel you have addressed or responded to their concerns. Dana boomer (talk) 01:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional closing note - This article is being delisted because the main editor has not responded to requests for updates in over a week, and the article still has basic problems, as well as two outstanding delist declarations. There are still numerous dead links (see the link checker tool) that were not used as convenience links, meaning the information was therefore essentially unreferenced, and there is currently edit warring happening on the page. As this article has been at FAR for over four months and still does not conform to current FA criteria, it is being delisted. When and if the article's editors feel that it has been brought back to FA status, it may be immediately taken to FAC. Dana boomer (talk) 02:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.