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Query - incivil conduct I can't seem to resolve on my own

I've been having a bit of an issue with SlimVirgin (talk · contribs) that has gotten a bit distressing as of late.

Note: I wasn't interested in a sanction so I posted here rather than on ANI. If you feel this is the wrong place to request admin related assistance, feel free to move it there.

I've been receiving numerous offensive comments and false claims from her recently that have nothing to do with the content discussion.

• "I don't think we should be held hostage like this"(?)
  "in the direction of a tiny-minority POV,"(?)
  "has been going on now very disruptively for nearly three years."(??)[1]

• "people disagreed with these changes on talk;"(?) [2]

• "Your usual thing is to start pointless arguments and keep them going"(?) [3]

Here are several example diffs of my bids from SlimVirgin for clarification on her uncollaborative conduct (and what feels like blind reverts).

• [4], [5], [6]-[7]-[8]-[9], [10], [11]
• Sample: "I'm not sure what your concerns were in regards to the recent content changes as you haven't taken the time to explain any such concerns. I'm fairly certain that there's nothing to be concerned with, but I promise to take note and try to work with your concerns once they are explained."[12]

I went to trouble to add sources to support my points of concern and responded to all the queries presented by fellow wikipedians.[13], [14], [15] Also, some of my notes and changes were seen as being accurate even by people I've been at major odds with even recently (per "Jaakobou wants to replace... I think on this issue he might have a point."[16]). I also don't have a clue as to why I'm being charged for promoting a "tiny-minority POV" when I've done nothing of the sorts, let alone been doing it for 3 years(?!). Maybe a clarification is in order to explain exactly where my recent suggested changes to the article are doing that.

Would appreciate a suggestion to me or a kind word noted to her, to help get our discussion focused on the points of concern I raised and getting the hostility -- which is really unclear and uncalled for -- down. I admit that in the past couple months (nothing close to three years) a few people were demonstratively unhappy by my objecting a few faulty interpretations of the sources and some incivility was a problem then as well. However, as it turns out, I was correct and everyone agreed (eventually) leading to the article currently reflecting these issues as a matter of established consensus (sample).

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:29, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Based on my extensive experience with Jaakobou at multiple other pages, and having followed the discussion at Muhammed al-Durrah, I have to say that I have nothing but sympathy for SlimVirgin, whose characterizations of his tendentious and POV pushing behaviour is rather mild considering. Tiamut^talk 15:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Dear Tiamut,

A behavioral pattern of incivility is disruptive and unacceptable, and may actually result in blocks if it rises to the level of harassment or egregious personal attacks. Please avoid making generic smears against Israeli editors.

Thank you, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:47, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you Israeli? I didn't even know. That's not my problem with your editing. It's your editing that is the problem and your tendency to not hear the objections of your fellow editors and you persistence in trying to get your POV to dominate on a given page. Tiamut^talk 21:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I see no issue on incivility that needs any kind of admin attention. SlimVirgin and others have engaged in lengthy and detailed discussion on the talk page. People disagreeing with you is an expected feature of editing Wikipedia. Fences&Windows 16:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Heyo Fences and windows,

SlimVirign participated with a revert explained by a false assertion and responded to the discussion with an ad hominem. "Participation" seems quite hostile in that sense. Side commentary (per "hostage") in response to source based replies seems drama inducing and something that could be improved upon. I wouldn't mind hearing where my recent edit was so offensive as to elicit such a reaction.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The whole point of writing-up these events is to get an NPOV article, Wikipedia's reputation suffers when unfit people holding extreme views persist in POV pushing. SlimVirgin's comments are mild and she's being over-reasonable. 86.159.67.125 (talk) 19:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

If you don't like "drama inducing", don't post here! If you want to hear why your editing elicited SlimVirgin's comment, you'd better ask her. There is nothing for admins to do here. Fences&Windows 22:13, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

• Jaakobou has a long history of aggressively promoting his POV. I have no idea why he thought it would be a good idea to come here and tell us how hard he's been trying to provoke SV, but I suspect he might be starting to regret it. Guy (Help!) 23:35, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

• • Wow JzG,
    How is was the edit provocative exactly? I'm thinking you should really explain since I don't see removing the suggestion that the boy might be alive or that Israeli investigations stated (rather than 'suggested') as provocative. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Jaaokou has been trying for nearly three years to slant the article toward the view that Muhammad al-Durrah wasn't shot by the Israeli army, may not have been shot at all, probably isn't dead, and that the whole incident may have been staged by Palestinians for propaganda purposes. He uses poor sources, uses them badly, argues endlessly on talk, and if people don't respond to him, complains that he's being reverted without discussion and treated unfairly. I'll give one example from October of how time-wasting, and even offensive, his editing is:

The Palestinian cameraman who filmed the killing explains in a German documentary that, when he compiled his initial report, he thought the boy's name was Rami. But another journalist who had married into the al-Durrah family recognized Muhammad in the footage and supplied the correct name. Therefore, the cameraman corrected the name in his subsequent reports. (See here around 6:30 mins, in German.) Jaakobou used this documentary as a source to add to the article [17] that the cameraman had "switched" the name for no reason: "Abu Rahma stated in an interview that he showed his footage to the other cameramen and one of them told him the boy's name was Rami al-Durrah, which he decided to switch to Muhammad al-Durrah." This is part of Jaakobou's tiny-minority theory that perhaps another boy called Rami was killed that day, not Muhammad. But the cameraman explains in the documentary that he simply made a mistake when he initially called the boy Rami.

When challenged on talk, Jaakobou said the cameraman might have changed the name because "Muhammad" was likely to trigger more sympathy in the Muslim world than "Rami." He said that "the issue of The Truth in Arab media is very complex," and "I'll assume that they figured the name 'Muhammad' would sell better in the Arab world than 'Rami'. In the Arab media, the 'truth' is more about storytelling than about minute facts ...," and when on to explain that Arab journalists may believe they are telling the truth, when anyone can see that they are not. [18] [19]

We asked an uninvolved German-English translator, User:Bamse, to confirm that the documentary said the name had been changed because a family member had corrected it. Jaakobou then acknowledged that he doesn't, in fact, understand German, and that he had simply heard somewhere that the name was changed for no reason i.e. he had, in fact, no source for his original edit.

This whole pointless discussion took up three days, involved six editors, 54 posts, and the services of an uninvolved translator. This is what editing with Jaakobou is like. But if we ignore him, he complains that he's being reverted without discussion, and if he's told off, that people are being rude to him. SlimVirgin 03:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate SlimVirign taking the time to elaborate on the raised query and will address a few of the issues:

Old News: I hate to have my explanations distorted by SlimVirign. In short, I've already explained myself and we resolved the issue of the possibly faulty English translation and moved on. We've also resolved the issue of SlimVirign's own errors, such as the citing the length of the incident video to be several minutes or the timestamp issue; which all (despite some incivility and an RSN I was forced to start -- took considerably longer than 3 days) eventually agreed I was right about.[20] I also have had immediate support on part of my recent edit (per "on this issue he might have a point."[21]) and was quite willing to explain the other changes using reliable sources and discussion.

Relevance: Old news aside, I haven't seen you address why the recent edit elicited such strong emotions out of you. Maybe you're harboring old bad blood, but we still need to find a way to collaborate without making any faulty and personal insults.

Misrepresentations: You've written above: "Jaaokou has been trying for nearly three years to slant the article toward the view that Muhammad al-Durrah ... probably isn't dead." However, I've done exactly the opposite by removing "it remains unclear whether the boy died" from the lead.[22] If anything, you've slanted the article toward the view that "it remains unclear whether [Muhammad al-Durrah] died"[23] by reverting me.

(offtopic-general knowledge):
Muqawama (lit. "resistance"), aka "Popular struggle" or "the doctrine of constant combat", includes exaggerating by people of power to their public in order to promote civilian support and religious fervor. A multitude of sources include Palestinian and Arab. Sample documentary 1, Documentary 2 (see Palestinian official 1 (24:34-24:46) Palestinian doctor (28:40-31:24)).

On Point: I hope that when I use a source to substantiate a fairly called for change I am suggesting (such as "suggested" to "stated" about IDF investigations), it should not be followed by an uncalled for and exaggerated personal smear. If SlimVirgin doesn't understand the changes, they can make note and I will do my best to explain. However, it is improper to respond to citation including explanations with personal attacks that you're held hostage for 3 years when nothing of the sorts has occurred.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:50, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't describe the discussion as pointless, although I would sympathise with tedious and frustrating, since the evidence is now in place and referable should the same or similar claim be made. It is difficult to require one person to accept consensus that there is no basis to include their viewpoint, per good faith, if the consensus holders will not accept that the individual is making their point in good faith. If the claim is not being made in good faith, or otherwise the consensus view is taken in bad faith by the individual, then there is a problem that might require third party input to resolve. It is part of this projects process to discuss and evidence where possible the decision what content appears on the article page; it looks like this has been followed scrupulously, which reflects well on the participants. It now only requires Jaakobou to recognise the legitimacy of the process, and to accept that consensus needs to be evidenced as being mistaken and a new one agreed before controversial edits are made. This would be a prime indicator of good faith. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:15, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Heyo LessHeard,

I've shown a diff supporting that at least part of my change was immediately accepted by another editor and, if you review the thread properly, you can see that we were in the process of discussing the merit of the other changes when SlimVirgin made the personal accusation. Please review the provided diffs.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:56, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

LHvU, Jaakobou has a POV wihch is close to one extreme of a highly polarised spectrum. I have strong recollections of other issues with Jaakobou's advancing of highly biased content on the flimsiest of grounds, and the problem is not with others failing to assume good faith - rather, it's with good faith being extended past breaking point. I suspect that we should close this report with a mental note that next time it happens Jaakobou should be subject to a topic ban for a period, say three months. If people can't bring themselves to wait for next time then they can start and RfC now. Guy (Help!) 11:12, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

POV is one matter - even extreme ones which, unless it is subject to an existing topic ban/AE issue, still requires good faith discussion - and claims of incivility are another. As I may not have made clear, that edits may be summarily reverted - and especially in controversial areas - per WP:BRD is not uncivil, it is part of the process. I don't think the merit of Jaakobou's complaint is upheld, and the rest of it is a content dispute that has no place here. Complaining about use (rather than abuse) of process, when it removes ones viewpoint, is inappropriate. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm very disappointed to see this complaint on AN/I. Over the last few months Jaakobou has become virtually a single-purpose editor, focusing almost exclusively on this one article. SlimVirgin has done an excellent job of fixing many problems with it. Unfortunately Jaakobou's contributions have been much less positive. Although some of his suggestions have had merit and have been implemented, too much of his involvement has been frankly tendentious. Many of his proposals have the clear intent of slanting the article in the direction of his favoured POV. He engages far too much in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behaviour by making the same arguments over and over until other editors get fed up. He has also sought to exclude sources on overtly racist grounds, viz. that Arabs / Palestinians have a "generic storytelling culture" and therefore nothing they say can be considered a reliable source. This was the subject of a Wikiquette alert a couple of months ago, which resulted in a general consensus that such claims are clearly racist.

This seems to be to be a fairly straightforward pattern of disruptive editing motivated by a strong commitment to a particular POV. Considering how long it's been going on for, I think some remedial action is necessary. I don't think a block would be appropriate at this stage but I think a topic ban or article ban would be proportionate; as Guy notes above, Jaakobou has a long history of this kind of thing across a range of articles. I disagree with Guy that we should address it next time; this has been going on long enough. It's time Jaakobou spent more time editing other parts of the encyclopedia where his POV doesn't get in the way so much.

I'm going to propose a topic ban on Jaakobou for a period of three months per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions, which empowers uninvolved administrators to impose sanctions on any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process, on articles concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict. Please comment below on whether you support or oppose this proposal. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:25, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I'm sorry, but Tiamut and others are using this space to make a smear campaign against me. That the Israeli-Palestinian topic is contentious is known and editors have tried on numerous occasions to win arguments with me through sanctions. Non of this or all the warnings and blocks given to ChrisO (for example) for his misconduct on the Al-Durrah article,[24][25][26][27][28][29][30] are relevant though to the current post. If you want to start a complaint about me, find some relevant diffs and do it. I've removed Tiamut smearing through sample of the rejected complaints she and a few of her friends opened against me due to their irrelevance to this post.[31] Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Jaakobou, you have warned previously not to remove other editors' comments per WP:TALK. I am restoring my comment directly below. Please refrain from removing it again. Thank you. Tiamut^talk 12:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Support (ChrisO's proposal for a three-month topic ban) I ask those who may not be familiar with Jaakobou's history to review the following list of some cases at WP:AE that he has been involved with:

• 02.2008: AE complaint filed by Eleland re Jaakobou (No result)
• 02.2008: AE complaint filed by Jaakobou against Number 57 (No result)
• 02.2008: AE complaint filed by Jaakobou re Eleland (No result)
• 02.2008: 2nd AE complant filed by Jaakobou re Eleland (Result: Jaakobou received a final warning about using AE as a weapon for block shopping)
• 03.2008: AE complaint by El C re Jaakobou's mocking of my user page (No result after Jaakobou apologizes for the "misunderstanding")
• 03.2008: AE complaint filed by tiamut re Jaakobou (Result: Jaakobou is banned from all Israel and Palestine related pages for a week for inappropriate talk page behaviour.)
• 03.2008: Jaakobou's AE request "other editors' activity, specifically Tiamut, Nickhh, Sm8900 and Nishidani, should be given proper examination and possible sanctions should be considered when their activity is placed in comparison with my own." (Result: Discussion closed by Thatcher with "THIS ENDS NOW"]
• 04.2008: 3rd AE complaint by Jaakobou re Eleland (No result)
• 04/05.2008: 4th AE complaint by Jaakobou re Eleland (No result)
• 06.2008: Pedrito's AE complaint re Jaakobou (No result)
• 11.2008: Tiamut's second complaint at AE re Jaakobou (Result: Jaakobou given a final warning about soapboxing.)
• 05.2009: SlimVirgin complaint at AE re Jaakobou (No result)

The Wikiquette alert from October 2009 that ChrisO linked to above should have resulted in an automatic topic ban given the last final warning he received less than a year previous regarding soapboxing (which was also borderline racist or racist depending on one's perspective). This complaint too is indicative of Jaakobou's pattern of filing unfounded complaints (for which he has been previously warned, as evidenced in the links above). Tiamut^talk 11:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut, there's a reason that all of those cases closed with no action—it's because of the baseless block shopping frenzy in general in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict area, much of it against Jaakobou. I don't see how it is relevant to this AN/I case. If you have a current and specific problem with Jaakobou, please file a complaint, although it would probably just be a waste of administrators' time. I believe it's time to close this case as well. Hopefully all parties stop with the pointless complaints and start contributing to the article. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:38, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Ynhockey, half of the AE complaints listed above were filed by Jaakobou against others, all of which resulted in no action. Of the six filed against him, two resulted in some action, one was dismissed after he apologized, and the other three simply went stale. I must say, I find your lack concern regarding his tendentious editing style, racist commentary and soapboxing unsurprising, given your consistent defense of his actions. Tiamut^talk 15:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

DragonflySixtyseven has graciously volunteered his limited time to help me through this dispute. I would like to note that I apologize to everyone for the inconvenience; please trust me when I say that my only goal is to improve the encyclopedia as a whole and I wanted to get to a more collaborative situation as recent comments felt to start to become a bit personal and conflict inducing. This thread seemed to have had a bit of drama as well, but I hope we can start focusing on the content from now on. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 14:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I want to note that Jaakobou's problematic behavior continues even here. He has removed a post of Tiamut's, and acknowledged that the removal was deliberate, [32] then tried himself to close the discussion down. [33] SlimVirgin 15:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I personally asked him to close this discussion. Usually I try to avoid A/N as if it had a virulently infectious case of explosive diarrhea, so I'm not 100% familiar with what is and is not acceptable protocol. I thought that, since Jaakobou had been the one to begin this section (by filing a complaint against SV), he could also be the one to end it (by retracting the complaint). I apologize for the confusion that this may have caused. DS (talk) 15:24, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

• Support. I also support Chris's proposal of a three-month topic ban. Jaakobou has become practically a single-purpose account, editing Muhammad al-Durrah almost to the exclusion of anything else. He has very strong feelings about it, and tries to impose a tiny-minority POV to the effect that the shooting incident was staged. He makes these feelings clear offwiki. He has uploaded a video about it to YouTube, and has posted there that the incident was staged, and that "people were massacred because of this blood libel." [34] He's entitled to that view, but he's not entitled to bring that same strength of feeling to the Wikipedia article, and basically to filibuster on talk in an attempt to wear everyone else down. A three-month break would benefit both him and the article. SlimVirgin 15:23, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I feel that it would be premature to impose such involuntary sanctions on Jaakobou at this time. DS (talk) 15:45, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Could you please state, for the record, how you came to be involved, since you tend to avoid WP:AN? Tiamut^talk 16:11, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Here. Now leave me out of this. I said I'd help him if his suggestions on the talk page were not at least openly addressed, so so do me a favor and - when he makes suggestions on the talk page - openly address them. DS (talk) 18:53, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

• Wasn't the disruptive editing guideline originally crafted to prevent people from topic banning editors who hold legitimate minority views? Jaakobou hasn't been blocked in a year and a half. Disclaimer: I used to mentor him. But it would seem that an editor who brings forth the Columbia Journalism Review and other established sources to support his supposedly fringe position might not be advocating a fringe position. Formal mediation might help; you're all reasonable and experienced people. Durova³⁷¹ 16:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I have never seen Jaakobou bring forth any good or mainstream source. All the work on that article has been done by others. His position—that the incident was staged—is a tiny minority one that even in Israel is regarded as somewhat off the wall. SlimVirgin 16:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

He showed me a list of sources a few weeks ago which I can't recall the link to now, but which included the Columbia Journalism Review and several other very respectable sources, one of which may have been The Wall Street Journal. I know very little about the underlying content dispute, but if those sources are relevant then the idea doesn't seem to be fringe. Certainly not topic bannable. Durova³⁷¹ 18:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

There are mainstream sources who have discussed other issues about the al-Durrah case—sources found by other editors—but the particular position Jaakobou is trying to push is a tiny-minority one. In any event, the issue is his behavior, as well as the particular POV, and the length of time it has been a problem. SlimVirgin 18:11, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

If memory serves, I skimmed a couple of the better sources including the Columbia Journalism Review and they appeared, surprisingly enough, to be discussing that position as a credible possibility. In my experience Jaakobou has an easily identifiable POV, yet he is generally good about producing reliable sources for it and amenable to discussion about the due weight those sources should receive. My experience with you, SlimVirgin, is that you do not always acknowledge the existence of evidence that conflicts with your own opinion--even after it has been provided per your request. Haven't followed the current dispute closely enough to tell whether that might be a factor here, but we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. I would hate to see anyone topic banned because of that type of misunderstanding. Durova³⁷¹ 18:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment—I agree with Durova. We should not impose bans on users who engage in a content dispute but edit within policy, just because their opinions (backed by sources) are in the minority. SlimVirgin is also claiming things about Jaakobou that aren't true (like the notion that he supports a conspiracy theory on al-Durrah) to push the ban, which I consider especially worrying. Content disputes are a part of editing, and if done properly, they can significantly increase the quality and neutrality of articles. Needless to say, if Jaakobou is banned, it would be an award to persistent tendentious editing, unnecessary blanket reverts, and personal attacks by the other side. My suggestion as someone who is familiar with the case and mildly involved, is to start a formal mediation process, or if possible have the parties work out their differences before edit-warring in the article. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:12, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

A couple of people seem to be commenting here without reading the previous posts. Ynhockey, I posted diffs above that Jaakobou thinks Arab journalists are unable to tell the truth. Do you regard that as acceptable comment on a talk page? I posted a link to comments of his on YouTube that the al-Durrah tape is a fake and that the allegations are a blood libel. That is the conspiracy theory.

Mediation is the last thing we need. What we want is less talk from him, not more.

I have seen e-mails from Jaakobou on another site that suggest he's an online activist on behalf of Israel, similar to Zeq, and that Wikipedia is just one of his outlets. I'm reluctant to link to the posts here because they lead to a name. The bottom line is that the degree of POV pushing J engages in is beyond the normal give-and-take of editing, even within the I/P area, and it needs to stop, one way or another. SlimVirgin 18:27, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

• There's been all types of reports on the Al-Durrah incident, and I am sorry for bringing it up here. In any event, I withdraw from this discussion; for more details, please read my post on Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah_incident#Suggested_vs_stated. I apologize for the inconvenience. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I just found out about this case. First, let me say that SlimVirgin has done an exemplary job on this article, almost single-handedly taking it from start class to GA or possibly FA quality, while having to deal with an extremely tedious editor. Second, after reviewing past AN/I cases filed by or against Jaakobou, I'm truly amazed he hasn't been topic banned already. He's been tediously editing various articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict since at least 2007. Here are some quotes, taken from various discussions, about Jaakobou's problematic behavior:

Quotes

• "[Jaakobou] has accused me of vandalism for editing my own user page. He has accused me of making personal attacks from my user page, but declined to provide the text of these attacks (the simple reason being that no personal attacks were made by me). He has mischaracterised my reply to his "warnings" without providing a link to the text and accused me of making two (unspecified) misrepresentations. If you examine his contributions you will find a mixture of personal attacks on other editors and aggrassive POV pushing. Of course Jaakobou is intitled to his opinions. And his conduct on Wikipedia (including his current attempt to ban me) is totally consistent with his ideology." - Abu ali 11:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• "There seems to be a tendency among some users - you, Jaakobou are one... - to constantly assume bad faith on anything to do with edits on Middle Eastern matters that don't meet their personal POV. It's more than just inappropriate - it's creating a hostile and intimidatory atmosphere concerning the entire subject area on Wikipedia." -- ChrisO 10:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• "Jaakobou has acted in a deliberately offensive way, he has breached WP:NPA, he is making libellous attacks, and unless he is blocked for a significant period, then a precedent will have been established and other editors are likely to take advantage of this... Jaakobou is now trying to divert attention from my complaint by bringing up all sorts of untrue and irrelevant allegations." - RolandR 16:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

• "Jaakobou could benefit from taking a less confrontational approach towards his fellow editors. He does seem to have a habit of assuming bad faith and making claims of wrongdoing; this seems to be more of the same. It's the kind of approach that just ends up annoying people." -- ChrisO 22:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• "I'm finding User:Jaakobou to be quite disruptive... I'm starting to see the words 'exhausted the community's patience'." --kingboyk 12:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• "Jaakobou is trying to conflate a content dispute with a policy violation... his behaviour in this discussion has been sadly typical of his general behaviour on Wikipedia." - CJCurrie 16:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• "Jaakobou seems to me to be acting against consensus (his claims otherwise notwithstanding) and keeps backing away from discussion on the Talk page." - Bondegezou 15:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

• "I do not intend to escalate this disruption and retaliate in any fashion, but I am waiting for the community to announce that they're sick of Jaakobou and that his disruption in articles, in Talk and on people's TalkPages has to stop. I'm not aware he does any good to any articles, and clearly does a lot of harm to some of them. His behaviour drives numerous good editors away" - PalestineRemembered 17:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

• "As I have said, the difficulty in editing pages with Jaakobou is that one has to persist over long stretches of Talk in explaining to him elementary aspects of English syntax, grammar and what is or is not implied by a standard sentence in that language." - Nishidani 13:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• "But Jaakobou makes no secret of the intensely motivated POV which drives many of his edits in here." - Nishidani 21:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• "What I cannot do is bring to your attention the many more bad-faith cases brought by my main accuser, Jaakobou against a range of (overwhelmingly) knowledgeable and patient editors in the I-P conflict area... In the same vein, it's clear that the community is pretty sick of Jaakobou." - PR 12:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• "...there's a difference between assuming bad faith and concluding that somebody is just not a productive editor. Essentially all of Jaakobou's edits fall into one of two categories: 1) Adding contentious, unsourced or inappropriately sourced, and awkwardly written "pro-Israel" information to articles about that country, 2) Reverting edits on articles about that country, often edits which repair the damage caused by #1. No matter how hard one tries to reach him, Jaakobou remains aloof to the ideas of reliable sources, neutral point of view, and consensus building. When he bothers to explain his actions, it's generally in the form of 'This version is better,' or 'More NPOV this way,' with no indication that he has even read the statements made by others... Obviously, this leads to an exasperated reaction. Jaakobou then seizes on this reaction with cries of WP:CIV and WP:NPA, allowing him to further evade discussion. - eleland 20:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• "In this case it appears to be a case of Jaakobou alone against 3 editors. Also, insisting that a user follow wikipedia rules is not a 'weapon to beat opponents with'." - Bless sins (talk) 07:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• "It is extremely disturbing that an editor with a track record like Jaakobou's can come by and repeatedly delete this material, using only the most cursory of attempts to engage in talk. I request that an administrator review the situation and that Jaakobou be sanctioned for this pattern of disruptive editing and/or be assigned a mentor." - Tiamut 18:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Jaakobou's comments on the talk page mostly amount to 'i hate the subject matter, therefore i must harry the messengers'. His behavior is not conducive to creating an encyclopedia. I'd support yet ANOTHER long block on Jaakobou." - ThuranX (talk) 19:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• "This seems to me a pattern in Jaakobou's editing, one that has warded away many good faith editors from other articles." - Tiamut 19:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• "WP:TE is definitely an issue with Jaakobou - multiple instances of blocked for breaking WP:3RR, of reverting "vandalism" of others [119][120][121] [122][123] [124][125], accusing others of censorship [126][127][128][129][130][131] and violations of WP:UNDUE (constant reinsertion of a massive criticism section at Gideon Levy). I would suggest a Middle East politics topic ban." - Number 57 19:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• "I would just add that Jaakobou use sources which are highly controversial... Jaakobou has been around a while now, and I cannot detect any great change in his editing style. I suspect yet another ban will not change his style... a Middle East politics topic ban, sounds very sensible to me." - Huldra (talk) 21:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Jaakobou came straight back from his 3.5 day block to plunge into revert-warring again. His 2nd edit was a revert at Saeb Erekat, where he has single-handedly, edit-warred against the consensus of 8 other editors - this is the entire 16 month existence, every topic and every contributor at this TalkPage! This is on top of the 4 articles that were listed at the ANI leading to his block, and there are many others again. Blocking or topic-banning an editor is intended to be preventative - action in this case would be a service to the project, protecting a great swathe of articles from his pervasive, un-encyclopedic and anti-scholarly influence." - PR 22:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• "A widely cast topic ban or fully community ban [of Jaakobou] is in order. After reviewing some of his actions in this matter, he reverted and came to my talk page stating that my edits would be reverted because they fail to match his standards. My edits consisted of reverting to a FAR more sourced version, and then removing some cumbersome wording. He can't be pleased, short of having his way, whether or not they are actually valid." - ThuranX (talk) 22:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• "This is sadly typical of Jaakobou's edits; he seems to rely almost exclusively on his personal opinion for determining what belongs in an article or what does not, with no apparent effort to consider policies and guidelines." - eleland 00:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

• "I've had my fair deal of aggravation with Jaakobou in the past and present. I posted here a while back (here) regarding his WP:POINTiness and WP:TE... Attempts at WP:DR were all useless. Jaakobou rants on for days on end and then just disappears, showing up later only to block compromises worked out by other editors, over disputes that he himself started. It appears that for User:Jaakobou, WP:DR is only a tool to block a discussion over longer periods of time. For examples of his recent "work", check out Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Occupation of the Gaza Strip by Egypt and Gilad Shalit." - pedro gonnet - talk - 07.01.2008 07:54

• "Jaakobou has a long record of disrupting articles under the pretence that a source or statement is biased or POVed, inserting POVed material himself and edit-warring until either all parties lose interest or until any serious mediation (i.e. RfCs) goes against his wishes, upon which he just disappears. In my experience, there has nevern been any consensus on any issue with User:Jaakobou. The cases in which consensus was eventually reached were only possible once User:Jaakobou lost interest and left. When he leaves, it is usually only a matter of days before he jumps on a new topic or article to push the same views and arguments there." - pedro gonnet - 07.01.2008 12:44

• "Jaakobou isn't acting in Good Faith. He's here at AN/I so often he's got frequent flyer miles and his own chair. And it's always the same thing - promoting his POV against all consensus using hostility nad WP:TE to try to get his way. He'll ramp all opposition up tillthey violate WP:CIVIL, or it gets sent to one of our processes (DR, RfC, whatever), whereupon he'll split, leaving everyone else to 'fix' the mess, wasting lots of their time. then he jumps to a new article, and starts again. He's a persistent Tendentious Editor, and he needs a community ban." - ThuranX (talk) 12:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Many people will have undoubtedly assumed that Jaakobou is here in good faith - a close look at his actual editing would quickly persuade you otherwise... on top of the bullying, Jaakobou operates in a totally un-encyclopedic fashion to use/abuse sources. Not only does this damage articles, it has a profoundly discouraging effect on real scholars attempting to edit. In at least three cases I can think of, Jaakobou appears to have driven such people away in double frustration, both as regards the material itself and the absurdly tendentious way it is defended." - PR 15:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

• "...a multitude of respected, trusted editors and admins find there to be something seriously amiss with Jaakobou's actions on the Wikipedia." - <eleland/talkedits> 23:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

• "The issue is Jaakobou's tendentious and disruptive editing. Many editors and admins have suggested arbitration." - pedro gonnet - talk - 08.01.2008 13:34

• "...it's not a content dispute we are talking about here, it's the hundreds of content disputes which User:Jaakobou starts and then drags on for ever and ever to no avail... It's disruptive and tendentious editing that are the issue here and it's just plain annoying for anyone and everyone trying to make decent encyclopaedic material out of the I/P articles." - pedro gonnet 08.01.2008 13:40

• "Jaakobou starts content disputes over bogus material as a way of blocking articles he doesn't like. That's WP:POINT, WP:DISRUPT and WP:TE all in one." - pedro gonnet - talk - 08.01.2008 14:00

• "Jaakobou has a long history of abusing procedures, including calling for RfC and then refused to abide by the results...in this case as in so many others, Jaakobou's determination not to abide by policy is infectious, and results in other editors slipping into these consensus trashing and article damaging behaviors." - PR 15:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Don't; I've dealt with Jaakobou before, and he's got a problem with POV." - Sceptre, 18:29, 18 April 2008

• "I'd like to suggest that rather than locking the article down, Jaakobou be counselled to avoid editing of this article, due to his inability to edit collaboratively. Since his arrival at the page two days ago, he has done nothing but make inflammatory comments, editing with little regard to core policies, including WP:Consensus. His efforts to censor... go against WP:NPOV." - Tiamut 15:04, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• "Jaakobou, please, there is no accusation being made in this article. Please stop this. The purpose is to produce an encyclopedia article that presents a verifiable description of objective reality for this event based on reliable sources. It's not there yet, but really you aren't helping by doing this." - Sean.hoyland - talk 16:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

• "I fail to see how this complaint by a user at what the majority of editors determined to be acceptable, which the latecomer Jaakobou tried one-handedly to elide, and then failed to find a consensus for review, constitutes an 'incident'. The procedures for establishing consensus, gathering numerous reliable sources, etc., were all observed before a substantial number of editors from both sides. Can one use this noticeboard to attempt to get administrative review of a consensual edit one dislikes?" - Nishidani (talk) 18:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

In short, these editors have said that Jaakobou is a biased editor, intent on pushing his own point of view; he will stand in the way of consensus building, even in the face of overwhelming support for an edit; he ignores questions put to him directly, or just ignores the entire dispute resolution process, long-term edit warring and skirting 3RR; he exploits the administrators' noticeboard as a weapon in content disputes, conflating such disputes with policy violations, accusing those who disagree with his edits of incivility or failing to assume good faith. I've seen similar behavior from him, but had no idea it was so rampant or long term. ← George ^talk 18:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent space in which to use wiki-processes to ban editors for POV-pushing purposes. Really, this page was tailor-made for that purpose, and also for rehashing whatever the IP conflict du jour may be. </sarcasm> There's no need for a topic ban for Jaak. He's adding measurably to the discussion, and almost certainly keeping the article from being slanted. Mediation might be a good thing here. IronDuke 18:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

IronDuke, I've noticed you generally supporting Jaakobou's position on the Muhammed al-Durrah page. Opinions he expressed on the talk there were widely characterized as racist soapboxing by uninvolved commentators following this Wikiquette alert. You did not comment there (nor here) on whether you think such views should be expressed on Wikipedia talk pages. Do you think such statements are conducive to the collaborative building of content in an encyclopedia hoping to express a worldwide perspective? Tiamut^talk 19:06, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

One part of Jaakobou's chat with Dragonfly shows clearly what the problem is for anyone not familiar with the content issue:

• <Dragonfly6-7> by the way, this is about an incident in which a child died. Correct?
• <Jaakobou> probably
• <Dragonfly6-7> Rephrase.
• <Dragonfly6-7> This article is about an incident which led to the death of a child.
• <Dragonfly6-7> Correct?
• <Jaakobou> well... one died for sure
• <Jaakobou> there's conflicting versions about the second child
• <Dragonfly6-7> but in the end, two children died?

[snip]

• <Dragonfly6-7> Can we agree that at least one child died?
• <Jaakobou> yes... I can't be so I can't be blamed for promoting that he might *be alive though.
• <Jaakobou> I don't recall ever promoting that one no matter how hard they claim I have

Jaakobou's theory is that Muhammad al-Durrah did not die that day. His theory is that another boy called Rami died, and people are pretending it was Muhammad. This is what allows Jaakobou to claim, "But I'm not saying the boy is alive!" when in fact that's precisely what he's saying, while playing on the confusion he has created over the two boys. One German documentary has reported this theory (the idea, I think, is that Muhammad was part of a staged scene, so they filmed Rami's funeral and pretended it was Muhammad's, which requires that two Palestinian boys of the same age who looked almost identical died in the same area on the same day). No mainstream source other than the German documentary has reported this that I know of.

This was the issue I was referring to above, [35] when I wrote that Jaakobou added to the article that the Palestinian cameraman had decided to change the boy's name for no reason. Not only is this a tiny-minority theory, it's also a BLP violation against the cameraman, because no source—not even the German conspiracy documentary—says that the cameraman decided to switch the name for no reason. That is Jaakobou's unique interpretation of the conspiracy theory, where he out-theorizes the theorizers, and which he added to the article, [36] explaining afterwards on talk that Arab journalists are incapable of telling the truth, and they probably switched the name because "Muhammad" would elicit more sympathy in the Muslim world than "Rami." This kind of editing is clearly enough to justify a topic ban. It's racist, and it violates BLP, NOR, and V. SlimVirgin 20:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirign,

I believe it was actually your theory that it "remains unclear whether the boy died." and not mine. I tried removing that fringe perspective noting it is "less notable and highly controversial issue of alleged living status." and you reverted me. If it were my theory, then why are you putting it into the article[37] while I am removing[38] it? This role reversal where you're doing something and accusing me for it is quite discombobulating.

Cordially, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC) to Slim 21:31, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

• Support a ban of three months. Having first read this thread, then checked the diffs then read the AE I am astounded that Jaakobou is still editing. On multiple occasion she has shown that he does not care for the facts. Trying to push falsehoods and a biased POV, wasting editors time with discussion that go nowhere, a distinct lack of care for any of the basic rules of WP. I know that AGF is the watchword, but good faith is about twenty miles back and Jaakobou is way past it. PS: Given the voluntary withdrawal from the article I would also say Defer, but with extreme prejudice. One more edit should result in a ban. Darrenhusted (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

• Support Three month ban. Resource drain. Unomi (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose Hasn't been blocked in a year and a half, and has voluntarily withdrawn from the article. Sanctions are preventative not punitive. Durova³⁷¹ 22:09, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Personally I do not view the topic ban as a punitive measure but rather one aimed at preventing further drain of resources, having read the diffs above the preoccupations seems singular and the recent chat with Anisoptera seems to indicate that the 'self-imposed' sanction was embraced only for likelihood of avoiding community action. We can defer, I find that a sympathetic show of good faith, but at what cost and for which perceived benefit?. Unomi (talk) 17:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what the cost is at all: he hasn't merited any block in the last year and a half. The benefit is obvious: he brings reliable sources to the table to represent the right wing Israeli perspective, and is willing to collaborate with other editors to achieve appropriate balance. Certainly that will rankle a few individuals. Yet it is a notable perspective and deserves a place in articles. Try mediation, please. He doesn't bite. :) Durova³⁷¹ 04:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Durova, please do read through the manner in which Jaakobou engaged in this discussion. Red herrings, misrepresenting statements and complete failure to address the concerns raised. Is this really the sort of behavior that you support and wish to enable? Unomi (talk) 04:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Defer until the next event. A last warning should be sufficient at this stage. Guy (Help!) 22:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support a permanent Israeli-Palestinian conflict topic ban. Let me be clear here: I think Jaakobou is an intelligent editor capable of improving Wikipedia, but after reading the numerous AN/I cases he's been involved in, as well as his recent discussion with DragonflySixtyseven, I believe he views disputes within this topic space like battles to be won or lost (rather than as collaborative efforts to improve an encyclopedia), and uses reports of policy violations as weapons in that battle. There are millions of articles that could benefit from his contributions - the vast majority of which aren't a part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - and I think this topic area would benefit from a ban for a tedious, disruptive editor. ← George ^talk 02:54, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - looking through the edits and the AE complaints it doesn't seem that the problem is mainly Jaakobou. I would propose formal mediation including all involved editors. Pantherskin (talk) 09:05, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

• Not viable. Mediation is for users who don't entirely know what they are doing. Jaakobou knows exactly what he is doing.©Geni 16:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Jaakobou has mediated amicably in the past, and his actions were heavily scrutinized at arbitration this year with no findings of fact or remedies against him. He has offered reliable sources for his suggestions--which SlimVirgin has not only ignored, but she has also claimed he pushed a POV which he actually removed from the article. There is reasonable grounds to doubt whether she would mediate in good faith, but that is not a reason to sanction him. Durova³⁷¹ 16:42, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

but she has also claimed he pushed a POV which he actually removed from the article. Please see the edit summaries of those who undo those edits, first of all the removal of the text goes back to at least the 27th Nov, considering the amount of text in the article regarding the defamation suit, the unpublished and disavowed report as well as media coverage such claims have had it is difficult to understand how it can be considered both less notable and highly controversial. Engaged editors George, SV and ChrisO reinstate citing the ongoing discussions as well as those which had taken place since at least 31 Oct where Jaakobou, ironically, argues for greater weight to be given to the denial of death pov. Editors who had not previously engaged in discussion and did not do so later, User:Mbz1 and User:Matt57 revert to Jaakobou's version. It seems apparent that SV was supported by local consensus, it also seems apparent that Jaakobou's contributions have centered entirely around presenting the denial of death material not as simply part of the article but as the framework for the article. Unomi (talk) 18:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Heyo Unomi,

It seems that a clarification on the material in question is in order. Certainly, you can't deny that I was removing this content on 27th Nov. Yes? Anyways, your assertion that my objection to ChrisO's move -- which was basically ignoring sources such as The Daily Telegraph, Columbia Journalism Review, International Herald Tribune, The Jerusalem Post, Atlantic Monthly, The National Post, Los Angeles Times, Miami Herald, The New York Sun, etc. -- amounts to promoting that the child is supposed to be alive is presumptuous and without merit. Chris, George and I basically agreed that we should avoid mention of the less notable "might be alive" theory in the lead. Still, a "date of death" ignores the above sources. At least that is how I saw it and while ChrisO still argues that the sources in question are a tiny minority, SlimVirgin[39] and others[40][41][42][43] agreed with my assessment there and moved on to fix the issue by changing the article from a biography to an event article. At the initial point I was not in favor of either of the suggestions and was hoping that more research can be made in order for everyone to come to an agreement (see my comment). I hope that clarifies what you perceived as irony and that it clarifies why I removed a mention of his possible living status from the lead while also starting a discussion to hear views on the issue that a death certificate is not a good, long lasting point for the page. There's really no irony involved and only an attempt to find a version that gives due weight to all viewpoints based on the level of coverage in mainstream sources. Anyways, I wouldn't mind to hear an explanation on why I was reverted on that one since SlimVirign hasn't expressed why she wants to mention that he might be alive, a less notable issue, in the lead while others, myself included, have expressed that it might be undue for mention there.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:38, 6 December 2009 (UTC) few fixes 20:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't deny that you are removing material in the lead, however, that material is represented in the article proper, appears a notable claim and as such belongs in the lead. Your presentation of ChrisO and George agreeing with you regarding removing it from the lead is somewhat at odds with the fact that they reverted attempts at removing it from there[44] [45]. I have made no comment, much less any assertions regarding the page move. There certainly is an irony there as you point to sources[46] which I understand are taken to support the premise that it was a hoax / he is still alive, yet you seem to resist the inclusion of such information in the lead. This strikes me as especially curious as per your comment above, you argue that the date of death should be removed per those very sources. You seem to be inclined to let the 'less notable issue' inform the manner in which the article is presented. Unomi (talk) 21:40, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually,

Three years to slant the article - several of the editors active on the talk page have accused me* of being a disruptive POV pusher for promoting the exact material that you are now supporting for the lead in the article (per "and as such belongs in the lead").

* SlimVirgin: "Jaaokou has been trying for nearly three years to slant the article toward the view that Muhammad al-Durrah wasn't shot by the Israeli army, may not have been shot at all, probably isn't dead."[47]

ChrisO and George - said they think it should not be noted in the lead and have never argued that it should be there. George at one point compared any inclusion of the staged point of view with holocaust denial and ChrisO has compared it to 9/11 trutherism.

• ChrisO: "As I've said below, it's an extreme minority claim and does not belong in Wikipedia, period. I will remove any attempts to add it."[48]

I can't explain his insertion of this content but, personally, I think the words "suggested it may have been staged" are fitting while the phrase "remains unclear whether the boy died."[49] is a little over the top for the lead. If ChrisO and/or George want to argue for its inclusion, an explanation was not yet presented.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:59, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Lets be clear, the lead does not state that it actually "remains unclear whether the boy has died" but rather lists the various claims that have been laid forth, I don't quite understand how you can on one hand argue against the inclusion of his death date, and on the other seem to not want the claims pointed out. I have made no mention of '3 years' and I sincerely wish that you would stop introducing arguments which have nothing to do with the issues I present. The diff of ChrisO which you present is over 2 months old. We are not discussing the content of the article here but rather the manner in which you participate and what you are displaying here in terms of red herrings and deflection are not helping you. Looking at your earliest edits tells its own story, with this unsourced addition perhaps providing a summary. Unomi (talk) 01:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

• As has too often been the case, this appears to be yet another attempt to turn a discussion about editor behavior into a dispute about content. My concern here is the long-term pattern of tedious, disruptive editing, dating back at least a couple years, characterized by exploitation of Wikipedia's policies. If anyone is concerned about any particular edit, I'd be happy to discuss it on the article's talk page. ← George ^talk 07:05, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Strong oppose per Pantherskin and per Durova. @ Unomi you're talking about me reverting to Jaakobou changes is silly, and BTW you forgot to mention IP that reverted me few minutes later. Was it george or slimvirgin, who forgot to log in? About the article itself. Of course all episode was staged up. I've no doubt about that. --Mbz1 (talk) 02:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Statements like "Of course all episode was staged up. I've no doubt about that." is part of the reason we're here in the first place. Personal views do not dictate how an article is written. Articles are written based on reliable sources, proportionally weighed by the prevalence of differing views in said sources. ← George ^talk 07:05, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

When I said "Of course all episode was staged up. I've no doubt about that." I meant that I believe reliable sources that I read, and do not believe you, slimvirgin and Palestinian propaganda. Any problems with that? --Mbz1 (talk) 13:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Mila, just out of curiosity, how did you become aware of the Mohammed Al-Durrah article? Your only appearance there was a recent single revert in the middle of an edit dispute with an edit summary "rv see talk" before ever having participated on the talk page. Were you also approached by Jaakobou (talk · contribs) on IRC? Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 09:42 07.12.2009

Nobody ever contacted me.I do occasionally edit Israeli-Palestinian conflict articles on my own. If I am not doing it more often, it is only because I see no use in doing that. For every voice, who speaks the truth there are dozens, who speaks propaganda, just look at the world's map to see that it is the case. So I decided to let the History to be the judge.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

• Block User:Jacobolus and then quickly change the name when someone points out it's wrong :) --NE2 05:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
• Block And block Durova, since the Columbia Journalism Review does not support the conspiracy theories, have a look.[50] The CJR was discussing what James Fallows said on his blog, and he's in two minds, not convinced of the main-stream view but also "skeptical that large-scale conspiracies can be pulled off — and kept secret for seven years" Well, of course, unless it says somewhere that racists are free to mangle the record and insert their POV against people they hate in which case there's no problem. 86.159.67.40 (talk) 20:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There's really no need for a straw man here. ← George ^talk 19:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

• Support ban of Jaakobou from the article for 3 or more months. I've kinda had it with POV pushers that "cite" a source saying the the sky is blue as blue whales are covering the whole sky. I've seen that often enough on contentious articles, and it does not bode well for Wikipedia. Editors that engage in that kind of behavior repeatedly should be shown the door for good. NPOV is tricky enough to achieve by correctly balancing sources, and some editorial disagreement is to be expected in that area given human nature, but allowing editors that grossly misquote sources to do their bidding is something I cannot let slide. FYI: I've not edited this article, I'm uninvolved in IP articles in general, and don't recall ever interacting with Jaakobou. Pcap ping 05:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC) Clarification: By misrepresenting sources I'm referring to the name switching issue raised by SlimVirgin above. Pcap ping 07:17, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose Ban Per User:Durova and User:Pantherskin's reasoning.  IShadowed  ✰  04:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

AfDs of unsourced BLPs of gay porn performers

Since I have nominated a number of unsourced or very poorly sourced BLPs of gay porn performers for AfD recently, and may nominate more if I happen across them, I am posting here to state that my actions are neither intended to make a point nor part of any specific effort to delete gay porn content. Biographies of gay porn performers seem to suffer from an excess of promotional material and a lack reliable sources, so it is likely that until someone with a solid grasp of sourcing and BLP policy takes an interest in this subject area, it will remain a problem area. My reasons for nominating these articles is that they are unsourced BLPs (many have been tagged as such for literally years) which make contentious claims (ie porn perfomer). Here is a list of AfDs:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roger (pornographic actor)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rick Donovan
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shawn Jamieson
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lance (pornographic actor)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cort Stevens
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sean Davis (actor)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christy twins
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vladimir Correa
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sergio Canali (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brad Hunt
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aaron Lawrence (entrepreneur)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve_Regis

Unfortunately, my actions have been perceived as destructive rather than an attempt to address long-standing BLP issues, which has prompted me to post this clarification. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:59, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

• Regardless of notability, if AfDing such articles is the only way that people can be persuaded to improve them to meet our BLP policy, then such AfDs can never be destructive. If they can't be improved to meet it, then they need to be deleted anyway. Black Kite 19:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Nominating biographies for deletion without trying to establish whether or not they are sourcable is disruptive, and expressly contrary to community norms on deletion. While many articles are not appropriate for inclusion, frivolous nominations such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leo Ford are disrespectful to the contributing editors, negatively impact the single/noise ratio of AfD and are a waste of the communities time. It's not terribly difficult or time-consuming to research a topic before initiating a discussion on its encyclopaedic worthiness.  Skomorokh  19:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

See my comment here, which notes that I did attempt to find sourcing and was unsuccessful. At the AfD a number of searches showing passing references (in some cases only because of a misattributed image on a Smiths single) are offered as proof that WP:GNG has been met. I disagree, but neither that nor my nomination for AfD should be seen as disrespectful. This article was prod'ed by User:Rodhullandemu and the prod was removed by User:Benjiboi without the addition of any sources but with the edit summary "a quick search provides numerous sources". As Black Kite notes, it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes an AfD to get sources added to unsourced BLPs, but if you feel that result is a waste of the communities time, you are welcome to that opinion. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree on Ford (apart from anything else, he's been dead for 18 years, and thus not a BLP) but there are a lot of these articles in terrible shape, and it's not always easy to differentiate the notable from the non-notable in such areas. To be honest, I'd assume good faith - nothing is going to get deleted that shouldn't be, and for genuinely notable people the end result - like Leo Ford - is usually a massively improved article. It's just a shame that no-one is trying to improve such bios before someone takes the AfD hatchet to them. This, for example, shouldn't even have the courtesy of an AfD. Black Kite 19:48, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Skomorokh, you're wrong here. Porn is so pervasive on teh internets that a Google test is worthless, and most of the sources will trip the filters in a lot of companies and other institutions. The WP:ONUS is on the author to provide sources, and AfD is a great way of rapidly resolving sourcing issues: either the article gets sourced (which is fine) or it gets nuked. People who close BLP AfDs usually have enough WP:CLUE to ignore WP:ILIKEIT and stick with policy; if people want to source the articles then there's really no problem at all. Guy (Help!) 22:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Afding these article is not acceptable. The correct response to an unsourced or badly sourced BLP which claims someone is a gay porn star is to speedy delete under G10. If anyone asks for an undeletion and undertakes to source it, then undeletion should be allowed. We cannot allow articles making such unsourced claims to remain even for a day or two, and whilst afd might force people to clean them up it is not what AfD is for, and runs the risk that they will be kept, but not sourced. People who want such articles need to understand that the onus is on them to source them NOW- or not to complain when they are summery deleted. Policy is quite clear on this issue.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Actually, should be "correct response to an unsourced or badly sourced BLP which claims anything about anyone is speedy delete under G10." But close enough. Tell Scott what he won johnny.Bali ultimate (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I *told* you there where some serious people you needed to meet ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

DC hasn't presented his case very well here, but his accuracy rate in targeting articles qualifying for deletion is pretty high, certainly higher than the average for AFD as a whole. There's a real problem here, in that certain editors creating and maintaining articles in the area are simply ignoring the specialized WP:PORNBIO notability guideline, the WP:BLP standards that call for "high quality references," "neutral and factual" writing style, and far too often the prohibition (incorporated by reference) against "Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products," and the standards of WP:RS. Many articles are constructed with just enough content to survive speedy nominations, but nowhere near enough to meet BLP or satisfy notability. The controversial List of male performers in gay porn films, with scores and scores of redlinks to common names which likely correspond to notable individuals who do not yet have article (eg, Ben Andrews, UK athlete, UK television personality, American politician, US NAACP official convicted in financial scandal, member of Harlem Globetroters; Matt Cole, various college athletes, and ironically enough, an almost identically named ACLU official who is a prominent spokesman on LGBT issues, who is quite unlikely to be amused if he is associated with the star of "Manly Heat: Quenched" and "Arcade on Route 9.") Alternate IDs and supposed "birthnames" are particularly ad problems, both on the list and on independent articles. Personal attacks like this are increasing [51], and there's certainly enough inappropriate conduct to create suspicion that there's a strategy of exhaustion rather than a good faith effort to satisfy policy requirements.
Would this discussion be better located at AN/I? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely adore the one named bio on "Roger." Didn't his mother call him Mr. Something when she was mad at him? And if you can't establish a real name, what of value can you establish (by the way, it wasn't ford's butt on the smith single).Bali ultimate (talk) 20:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

While it would be nice to see an open and frank discussion of this particular subject area and involved editors, I'm not really presenting a case here. I was only trying undercut some of the speculations about my motivations made in various places, including those AfDs. While I am not terribly bothered by most of them, admins who are unaware of the situation may assume that my AfD nominations are pointy or in some way an attack on gay editors and evaluate them differently on that basis. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Speculation on motives is dangerous territory, which is why I'm not going to venture an opinion on Benjiboi here, other than to characterise him as being particularly passionate on anything related to gay culture (which is not a problem). If he wants to find and add good quality sources, then Wikipedia is the winner. Rise above the prickly comments of those with particular hot buttons and keep reviewing badly sourced biographies. I've handled the complaints, yes, it really does matter. Guy (Help!) 23:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

May I ask why the nominations are only for supposed gay porn actors and not for straight porn actors? Woogee (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Only if you say what the name of your former account was. Fair is fair.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:54, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Woogee, all of these nominations came about as the result of a dispute over an image in the lede section of List of male performers in gay porn films‎ which lead me to look more carefully at the article. (If you're interested, you can see that article's talk page, or my post at WP:BLPN which summarizes my BLP concerns with that article.) Not surprisingly, the linked articles are biographies of gay porn performers. Articles on non-notable female porn performers are routinely deleted, as you can see from the AfD listings on Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Deletion. I have no concerns with the level of scrutiny given to female porn BLPs, which isn't the case for gay male porn BLPs. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, cleanup on the straight porn nominations started earlier, and led to a significant controversy and an attempt to reinstate older, weaker notability guidelines. See, for example, this long discussion [52] on a notability guideline talk page. And it's still going on. The discussion on the straight porn nominations is generally focused on the guidelines now, so it's lower profile. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 15:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you, Delicious carbuncle for your work here. Unsourced biographies of living people are unquestionably the most important (content) issue facing this project. Any work that seeks to address the massive number of unreferenced biographies on this site is absolutely commendable. This holds especially true for pornography-related biographies as they're even more likely to cause real-world harm. Regardless of what others say, you're doing good work and I hope you continue. --MZMcBride (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I second MZMcBride's comments, although I disaggree with deleting the article Aaron Lawrence (entrepreneur). This article is well sourced, and I feel that the business aspects of gay porn are notable.RadManCF (talk) 22:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

One caveat

Yonks ago I discovered an article that purported to be a bio of a living gay porn star but in reality was a vandalized article that had originally been about (IIRC) a 19th century legislator. I've found at least three similar articles since. Editors might want to check the first version of any article before tagging G10 in case the porn bio is actually vandalism, and the actual subject is not a porn star. --NellieBly (talk) 02:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Which is yet another reason for a zero-tolerance approach to unreferenced porn BLPs - we could be dealing with vandalism or a nasty attack. The correct response is to check for any valid version in the history and then speedy delete.--Scott Mac (Doc) 11:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Clarify

So to clarify we're assuming bad faith on just gay (and maybe all) porn BLPs and treating to a different standard than other BLPs? Not to mention the various AFDs listed above that are not of living people? The correct response is to tag for sources and if your hunch is that it's a hoax article - I've yet to see even one in this area - then look for yourself to see if the person has indeed done any gay porn - this immediately would answer the BLP concern without any drama. If no reliable sources in the field or mainstream press support the assertion then there may be cause for speedy. Porn is increasingly mainstream and despite culture hang-ups is seen as not quite the badge of shame implied here. Many porn stars of all sexualities and orientations are indeed proud of their work and parlay it into other careers. Whatever DC's motivations are I could care less, my "passion" is in LGBT areas on Wikipedia as similar double-standards seem common, LGBT articles seem to be under constant stress and compared to like articles with no LGBT connection have to quickly rise to exceed standards to be considered passable. I can't remember a time when the project didn't have at least one article at AfD, and it's usually been more. Once the lengthy overhauling of the list of male actors in gay porn films is more complete we should have a better picture of our coverage in this area. DC, and now their posse, seem to want to simply antagonize these efforts but just maybe the articles that have survived thus far have done so for good reasons. Laying ground-work here to bolster their actions instead of simply doing more homework before attempting to delete article in these areas would likely solve all these concerns. -- Banjeboi 01:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, no matter how proud some porn stars may be of their work, the label "porn star" is still a controversial label because much of society thinks poorly on porn stars. Using it carelessly can ruin peoples' lives. As such we should do all we can to prevent these unsourced claims, and I'm in total agreement that an unsourced/unsourcable article which focuses totally on one's profession as as a pornstar is in line with the spirit behind G10, which is to prevent harm. LGBT areas are under constant stress because it is a contentious area offwiki as well, with strong opinions going both ways (no pun intended). While you may not feel that homosexuality is a big deal, many people differ. Even if they are ignorant and bigoted, as long as they think poorly on gays and pornstars being gay and being a pornstar would still need to be considered controversial labels and as such need extra care when being claimed and sourced.

This isn't a matter of antagonizing the situation, it's a matter of reliably sourcing some very controversial claims for the dignity of those who have been falsely accused. ThemFromSpace 02:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Great job in maintaining the collegiate and constructive tone of this discussion Benjiboi. Er... Spartaz ^Humbug! 03:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I've been wikihounded by Delicious carbuncle for many months now, perhaps my patience with their "special concern" has worn thin. Additionally they seem to be regularly involved at Wikipedia Review which seems to have nothing positive to say about me. I'll let other decide if there is any connection here. This thread, BTW, is the third one from them that I'm aware on this one list (ANI and BLP) being the others. If they didn't intend to start drama about this list so others could claim it as "causing needless headaches" they sure seem to be doing a stellar job. Coupled with their seeming eagerness to take digs at me as well as deleting content on gay pornography actors applying Occum's razor gives us the most likely reasoning.
As I stated above, if the actual concern is that we are adding "very controversial claims" thus compromising the "dignity of those who have been falsely accused" then usually a basic search would clear that up thus freeing everyone of the drama. Instead of applying WP:Before, the community resources are spent doing a triage job and looking at the history of many of the articles we indeed got it wrong as quite a few fly past WP:Pornbio as well as WP:GNG. Frankly things would go much smoother without DC's "help". -- Banjeboi 14:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh please, the attacks on other editors you disagree with are wearing exceedingly thin now. You seem to be unable to approach disagreements with anything other then a battlefield mentality and that is ultimately destructive. DC raised a valid point which was being dealt with calmly and sensitively without rancour - until you contributed and lowered the tone. I strongly suggest that if you can't edit an issue calmly then you step back and do something less contentious for a while. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I recall trying, some months ago, to go through this list and delink the names in entries where the links led to completely irrelevant people with the same names (sports figures, mostly), as well as do some other basic cleanup, such as alphabetization. When my every effort met with reversion by Benjiboi, I just gave up. Deor (talk) 16:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In each of those cases you seemed to be removing wikilinks rather than simply disambiguating them. Those have all since been cleaned up. Most of the cases, BTW, meet WP:Pornbio as well so an article for them could be justified but a winkilink seems acceptable and likely would be added by someone regardless. We'd rather have a wikilink pre-disambiguated instead of added and pointing to the wrong person thus causing a potential BLP issue. -- Banjeboi 16:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed? Go to your list and click on the name Michael Parks. Look at the BLP article you wind up at. Do you think that he's the right guy? Do you want to bet? Deor (talk) 18:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

First off it's not my list I'm just the main contributor there. Secondly, that's a perfect example, I've added the disambiguation so it's not linked to the actor we already have an article for. If there are others feel free to note on the talkpage. -- Banjeboi 21:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Good motto: "The free encyclopedia that anyone can write on the talk pages of." Deor (talk) 23:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There are very few editors who I actually disagree and I'm the one being wikihounded. Overlooking the context of what seems to be simply aggressive editing in one area makes it all seem somehow noble. Adding in the ongoing civility breaches seems to shed more light and shows where the battleground mentality seems to generate. Everyone else at that list seems to be able to collaborate just fine. DC's point seems to be to justify their continued rancour in this subject area whereas I have done exactly as has been suggested above - added sourcing and demonstrated notability. Where needed merging and deletion is of course acceptable. That we call editors to account for their incivility and tenditious editing in one subject area seems appropriate if they are looking for endorsement of more of the same. No one disputes that more and better sourcing would be helpful but instead of simply doing that they seem to be more eager to simply delete entire articles and content in this area. Whatever their keen interest it seems to have been raised, by them, in numerous public forums and an AFD all resulting in a lot of what I consider needless drama. You could ask the real zinger of why was this even originally posted here. As far as I can tell it's simply a pre-emptive move but others may have a different read. -- Banjeboi 16:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, I have asked you repeatedly to stop trying to sully my reputation by associating me with Wikipedia Review, yet you persist, even here on AN. Please stop.

The "aggressive editing" and "civility" allegations you seem to be directing at me actually reflect your actions, not mine. A quick look at the history of List of male performers in gay porn films‎ will show your WP:OWNERSHIP of this article, and the talk page is littered with personal attacks you have made on me rather than discussing the issues I have raised. I have attempted to both remain civil and, as much as possible, not respond to your attacks. I may not always have been successful.

Up until he was recently blocked, your claims were that I was wikihounding David Shankbone and that I bore some grudge against Michael Lucas (director). Given what we now know about David's alternate accounts here and on Commons, it would be interesting to revisit the earlier discussion on WP:COIN.

I have no grudge against Michael Lucas. I have never met nor interacted with Michael Lucas so it is difficult to fathom how I may have a grudge against him. On the other hand, the fact that you have met Michael Lucas is easily verified from this posting showing you DJ'ing at an event sponsored by Lucas. Which one of us is more likely to have a neutral viewpoint regarding him?

I stated at the outset why I was starting this thread here. I am surprised by the number of supportive comments made here, but I am not surprised that you have a different interpretation of my actions. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that as regretable as it was for Shankbone to use alternative accounts, some specifically at odds with Sock policies, they did so because of your wikihounding. Your opening statement includes the rather general insult to all past editors in this content area by stating "until someone with a solid grasp of sourcing and BLP policy takes an interest in this subject area". Perhaps I am misreading that but it does seem like you'r insinuating every other previous editor of lacking "a solid grasp of sourcing and BLP policy". If I misread that or you meant something else then I apologize. And you assert I've sullied your reputation by associating you with Wikipedia Review, are you stating that you have not been active there, in any way, and indeed have not been involved with threads there about myself, Shankbone or any other editors? If you have indeed not been so involved there could you state that definitively? I will be happy to strike my comments if I'm in error. -- Banjeboi 17:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Your theory that David's use of sockpuppets was the result of my actions would require him to have access to a working time machine. Perhaps this would be a good time to apply Occam's razor? David sent me quite a gracious email following his block, so I don't think he feels quite the same way you do about the situation. As for my offsite activities, I have no reason to confirm or deny anything about Wikipedia Review or any other site that you may believe I'm involved in. In fact, WP:OUTING recommends against it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi routinely accuses other editors of harassment, working for wikipedia review, being part of a cabal out to get them, being a homophobe, anything that avoids dealing with issues that arise over articles they are associated with - this is simply more of the same and should have no bearing on this discussion. --Cameron Scott (talk) 11:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That is patently false and misleading. I have generally dealt with what I see as homophobia by simply working on improving articles, presumably why we are here. I reserve my "accusations" for editors - who motivations remain inside their own heads - of harassment when it arises to that point. Many editors certainly are homophobic but as long as they abide by our civility and editing policies I really don't care. That certain editors seem to solely focus on deleting content regarding LGBT people and culture is hardly new but when it becomes disruptive and a net loss to the Wikipedia project it certainly deserves more attention. Despite all the arm-flailing here and repeated assertions that they are grave BLP concerns there remains just the same sky-is-falling hysteria that seems more at place on Wikipedia Review which seems to have no end of drama-stirring and sock-producing capabilities. My immediate re-action to the stated concerns on articles I'm involved in is to see what merit the issues have regardless if the messenger may have other motives; just because they act WP:Dick-like they still may have a good point. Removing the hysterics has indeed netted some useful dialog on the subject but unfortunately there still seems to be a readiness to claim insurmountable issues or inflated concern where neither is needed. If you or someone has been unjustly called a homophobe there are numerous ways to address it including looking to why they would even do so. If the claim has no merit then repeating denials time and time again is unlikely to be needed. -- Banjeboi 01:24, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, your last statement is somewhat tautological. I don't want to suggest that it is itself a poorly disguised accusation, but it can certainly be read that way. See how this sounds to you - "If you or someone has been unjustly accused of COI there are numerous ways to address it including looking to why they would even do so. If the claim has no merit then repeating denials time and time again is unlikely to be needed." I think you see what I mean. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:13, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to attempt a more clear statement. As far as I'm aware I've never accused Delicious carbuncle of being homophobic yet they bring it up again and again as to infer that I must be. I'm not. I care not about about other editor's motivations, belief systems, etc. What I care about is the ongoing disruption, if someone is homophobic, who cares? As for your odd link? Well, seems like more of the harassment you seem to have no end for. Again, and you should well know this by now - and I'm shocked everyone else isn't tired of this nonsense - a likely connection to a subject remains not proof of a COI problem. Why you bother to repeat the same <yawn> issues that have been asked and answered again and again is for others to resolve if you can't seem to let it go. I invite you again to move on but of course the choice is yours. -- Banjeboi 04:38, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to prolong the this discussion, but the location does seem to be helping maintain civility, so I'll start it here and someone else can follow up somewhere else if they wish. Although Benjiboi seems to be expressing with their use of <yawn> that the whole question of conflict of interest is uninteresting to them and has already been settled to their satisfaction, I believe that several editors, including me, are unsatisfied. Outside of how this manifests itself on WP, I truly do not care about Benjiboi's sexuality, what they do for a living, how many pseudonyms they use, who they know, or what porn interests them. Let's look at some of the facts:

• Benjiboi/DJ Pusspuss performed at a benefit event emceed by their fellow Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence(SPI) member Sister Roma, which was sponsored by Michael Lucas (who also attended) and gay porn company NakedSword.
• Benjiboi/Sister Kitty Catalyst "arranged for Titan Media to supply some of their gay porn stars" for another event.
• The aforementioned Sister Roma (AKA Michael Williams) is the art director for Hot House Entertainment (one of the places were Benjiboi has previously been accused by other editors of having a COI).
• Sister Roma is also the co-host of the "Tim & Roma Show" which is "the ultimate inside look at world of adult entertainment" and is "proudly sponsored by NakedSword"
• Sister Zsa Zsa of the SPI ("pornographer nun") maintains two blogs dealing with gay porn
• This AVN article by Benji Featherstone notes the participation of the Tima & Roma Show at the GayVn awards which are "presented by, you guessed it, NakedSword
• In this article entitled "Naked Sword and Porn Companies Give Back" by Dennis McMillan (AKA Sister Dana van Iniquity of the SPI), the SPI is noted as one of the beneficiaries of money raised "through generous donations from Channel 1 Releasing, Falcon Studios, Hot House Entertainment, Lucas Entertainment, Raging Stallion, and Studio 2000".
• In the above article, SPI member Sister Edith Myflesh ("Purveyour of Porn to the Gay, Questioning and Bisexual Unwashed Masses" and AKA David Bloxsom) is identified as working for NakedSword.

I will be the first to admit that this simply shows a web of connections between the Benjiboi/SPI and various gay porn companies and isn't necessarily indicative of a conflict of interest. Many editors believe that we should judge editors' contributions rather than any potential COI (or payment for editing). I hope those editors will take a look at the Benjiboi's edits to List of male performers in gay porn films and judge for themselves. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

A comparison

It may be enlightening to compare the recent AfD of List of male performers in gay porn films‎ with the current AfD for List of actresses in the MILF porn genre. They share similar BLP issues, but they appear to be being dealt with somewhat differently, both in the AfD-inspired clean-up efforts and in the AfDs themselves. (Note that neither of these was my nomination and I do not think either should necessarily be deleted.) Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on that slightly enigmatic comparison? Fences&Windows 21:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I see that my comment probably was enigmatic for those unfamiliar with the background. There seems to be a suggestion that gay porn articles are treated differently than straight porn articles. Benjiboi earlier stated "...my "passion" is in LGBT areas on Wikipedia as similar double-standards seem common, LGBT articles seem to be under constant stress and compared to like articles with no LGBT connection have to quickly rise to exceed standards to be considered passable". While it is undeniable that there are editors who are homophobic and that there are editors who are opposed to porn in general, and probable that there is a systemic bias against any minority viewpoint or interest, there doesn't seem to be any basis for the suggestion that gay porn BLPs are treated more harshly. In fact, they seem to be given far less scrutiny and attention than straight porn articles.

I am not going to speculate as to why this is the case, but a look at the two AfDs should illustrate that it is true. The two articles share the same BLP concerns and are similar in structure (as opposed to List of pornographic actresses by decade which is simply links to articles). When the list of gay porn performers was nominated for AfD, the response was to leave red links in, stuff the article with extraneous questionable sources, and expand the prose descriptions. When the list of MILF performers was nominated, the response was to cull all the red links and improve the sourcing. Look at the AfDs themselves - based on the same underlying BLP concerns, the gay porn one closed as no consensus and remains a magnet for BLP issues. The straight porn one will very likely close as delete despite being greatly improved. Gay porn content should be judged on the same standard as straight porn content (and vice versa). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions imposed by admins instead of community?

While I can appreciate the most recent entry at Wikipedia:Editing_restrictions#Placed_by_the_Administrators and why it may have been imposed, what I don't understand is why the status of the Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions page has not changed. We really need to develop guidelines and policies on this point, so I welcome all input in helping achieve that. Should we retry Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions or a similar proposal for a community wide discussion? Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• My understanding is that the principal objection to the proposal was fear of abuse. To address this, maybe we should highlight - or if possible improve - the proposal's appeals procedure, which should ideally ensure that any sanction unsupported by community consensus is overturned on appeal.  Sandstein  06:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Would that be set up on a separate page though, or would the same proposal page be used, with the previous discussion archived? I'm not sure about what needs to be done to "re-discuss" a proposal of that sort. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This looks like a bit of confusion to me. An admin declaring a sanction does so as a member of the community, not out of a specific authority that separates them from the community. I assume community sanctions are normally codified by administrators, so how is an "admin sanction" going to be different from a community sanction? Mackan79 (talk) 06:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Have responded further below. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Unless this query is addressing something else and I misinterpreted it: It is already the case that any sanction or action by an admin is overturned without community support. There's no reason to make the system more bureaucratic. Just as happens with blocks, if consensus is against it than it's undone. NJA (t/c) 06:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that such users use an unblock request to appeal their sanctions? I thought that was discussed and did not receive a community consensus - perhaps on the talk page of the Discretionary sanctions proposal (linked above)? Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think NJA is suggesting that. An administrator imposed sanction can be reviewed and overturned by any individual administrator, same as a block. A community imposed sanction, like a community sanction, cannot be overturned by an individual administrator. Jehochman ^Talk 14:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You really don't seem to be getting it, Jehochman. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• Try nonexistent without community support: no single administrator speaks for the community. Outside the narrow bounds of arbitration enforcement, no administrator has the sole authority to impose broad sanctions. When a nuanced sanction is necessary (page ban, revert limits, etc.) it's more likely to achieve a workable solution by open community discussion, rather than by forcing the discussion into an appeal of one person's arbitrary idea. Durova³⁷⁵ 06:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Disagree. If I can block somebody, I can give them a final warning instead. Don't do X or you will be blocked, where X is something blockable. I've restricted Kils from further sockpuppetry, and from further disruptive editing in the form of self-promotion, conflict of interest, and spamming. Furthermore, my action was the result of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kils and had input from several administrators who all agreed that this sanction was the correct course of action. Jehochman ^Talk 14:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Unless you expect the community to patrol SPI investigations, the lack of community notification was problematic. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
• To respond to Mackan79, it does seem like confusion. It does not matter whether the admin or editor is a member of the community. Admins who unilaterally declare a sanction are taking actions unilaterally on their own view - they do not have any endorsement or opposition by the broad community. By this token, in the absence of any guidelines or policies that are supported by the community for such actions, any admin can come along and reverse that action, or enforcement of that action, upon an appeal being made (like an unblock request). So admins who impose unilateral sanctions, or those with a limited amount of input, are putting themselves (and others) at risk where they do not have explicit authority to impose that sanction. A community sanction, on the other hand, is imposed after a discussion has been conducted by the community, normally at this venue, or WP:ANI, for an extended period of time (meant to be a few days or something). Uninvolved users, whether an editor or an admin, weigh in with their views, and usually express their support or opposition, and in most cases, the subject of the sanction also participates either from his user talk or directly at the venue depending on how far the situation has escalated. It is depending on the outcome of that discussion that a particular sanction is imposed by the community and enforcible in its true sense (or not). No admin can unilaterally lift such a community sanction; instead, the community would again need to conduct another discussion and reach a consensus on whether the sanction should be lifted. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think I agree, with the conclusion that admins can attempt to set community sanctions, but where these are disputed the two steps remain 1.) community consensus, and 2.) ArbCom appeal. Individual admins do not have special authority to set themselves up somehow apart from these processes. Meaning that the single entry added now to Wikipedia:Editing_restrictions#Placed_by_the_Administrators should probably be folded into Wikipedia:Editing_restrictions#Placed by the Wikipedia community, or otherwise removed. Mackan79 (talk) 07:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I'll ask the imposing admin whether they want to get a community consensus or drop it. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• I am non-plussed that somebody would start an ANI discussion about something I did without inviting me to comment. Instead, after two or three outside views, they come to my talk page and tell me I did something wrong.[53] No, Ncmvocalist, your behavior is improper. If you have a concern about my actions, you should ask me first. The sanction was the result of a discussion at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kils. The logging is a mere formality, to make the sanction visible to other administrators. It is not a community sanction per se; it is a final warning from an administrator about a severe behavioral problem, one that may warrant an indefinite block if the problem does not cease immediately. The sanction can be removed by any administrator when it is no longer needed. Jehochman ^Talk 14:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Jehochman, what is problematic here is your response and your own glaringly improper approach. My comment at the top of this thread seeked clarification on procedure, policy, guidelines and practice - your action was secondary. It was at the point your action turned into the primary point of the discussion that I gave you a dual purpose comment - so that you voluntarily reconsider what you have done, and are aware of (that is, notified of) the discussion from which I came to that conclusion. Repeatedly making unwarranted accusations against others who criticise your approach (gently or otherwise) is becoming a tired pattern with you - my fault was actually bothering to give you the benefit of the doubt, again. I've explained why I find your logging problematic, below, and at our user talk pages. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Editing restrictions is a process page that User:Kirill Lokshin created out of the blue, and I populated the original data.[54] There was no proposal, nor any sort of discussion. We just made the page as a convenient way to track existing sanctions. I've now added a section at the bottom of the page for tracking administrator imposed "sanctions", which are really nothing more than final warnings, centrally logged. Since there's already been a discussion at WP:SPI, it would be wasteful to have another discussion at WP:AN to confirm the decision there. If a user wants to appeal, of course they an start a thread at WP:AN. Kils has apparently agreed to follow the sanction and does not seem interested in appealing. This thread is superfluous. Jehochman ^Talk 14:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, and a lot has changed since the point at which that page was created. You neither discussed your new decision(s) here, nor did you notify the community of that, nor did you bother to even mention it on the talk page. That a few admins participated is insufficient, on principle, without the community endorsing that such a limited amount of input is sufficient in a particular set of circumstances. Creating your own new procedures on your whim without broader input creates strife in this day and age - any perceptions of potential abuse that led to no consensus on discretionary sanctions stemmed from admins propensity to take precisely such unilateral actions. What would have been acceptable is to have a particular log dedicated to logging such warnings for any user rather than inequitably or prejudicially treating any one user in that way - most important was raising awareness of, and discussing the system. Reminders/warnings would then be logged when issued against repeat offenders who've engaged in far more problematic conduct, or far less for that matter. However, even if I endorsed that system, whether that idea would receive broad community consensus is questionable. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and new proposals can be started without discussion, even if you don't personally agree with them. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
      • I agree. But enacting new proposals that were in part or in full explicitly unsupported by consensus is problematic. I'd like to make these actions un-problematic so that any admin can take such actions without risk or fear. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
        • I think that this is exactly the sort of proposal that everyone makes a fuss about, then one day someone manages to implement correctly, and suddenly it turns out that it was a good proposal after all, that it should have been implemented before, that people were opposing out of fear for implausible consequences, and that WP:BURO was written to prevent this sort of stuff. (but it still needs a bit more time to know if this is one of those cases, and we shouldn't be killing it prematurely) --Enric Naval (talk) 20:50, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• One glib response followed by a more serious one: obviously administrators can block accounts unilaterally, so if you make it more trouble than it is worth to apply some lesser sanction to solve a problem, I'll just use the block button instead. As for the serious response, I respect the fact that no strong consensus exists regarding the application of unilateral sanctions, but we also have to come to terms with the fact that many admin actions to reign in behavior are de facto sanctions. We don't log them in a page or declare them, but when we tell an editor "don't disrupt page XYZ or you'll be blocked", that is effectively a sanction imposed unilaterally. I also agree that this thread is largely superfluous. Protonk (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Perhaps that is obvious because the community explicitly came to a consensus to that effect, Protonk. The community did not agree to discretionary sanctions for a number of reasons - I think it's counterproductive to suggest that this discussion is superfluous because it attempted to find ways/venue/format to effectively address those reasons. I also thought you'd have been interested in finding a way to codify the ability for admins to do so that there isn't so much controversy. Seeing I'm mistaken, we might as well close this thread as "superfluous". Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
    • I gather you're disappointed in my response. Let's take a recent example to flesh out my concern. I blocked User:Die4Dixie indefinitely for trolling, hurling various anti-semetic accusations and disrupting some article pages. You objected to that block. It was reversed and then later re-inserted as a community ban. I'm telling you that in order to simply tell him to avoid anything related to Jews writ large (assuming that was the only source of the problems), I would have to request community input or go to Arbcom, even though that is a much lesser restriction (and conveys a smaller cost to the encyclopedia) than an indefinite block. And even though I have the technical means (and often the social prerogative) to enact an indefinite block, I cannot enact 'lesser' measures without some rigmarole. That is a gigantic incentive problem. I now have an incentive to wait until an editor crosses a hard threshold like WP:SOCK or WP:HOUND or WP:OUTING in order to unilaterally undertake actions in response to disruptive behavior. instead of dealing with the issue in context (which would require a community discussion), I have to use an incidental offense as a precondition to deal with the disruption (note that this is not unique to the admin corps]). My formulation was glib, but the problem is serious. I understand that there are countervailing concerns (e.g. lower "punishments" attract less attention from outsiders and could be used abusively and surreptitiously by admins). But the concern remains. Protonk (talk) 01:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
      • If the community fears admins are going to abusively and surreptitiously use extra sanctions that would help them, then the only users who can remedy those concerns are admins - yourself included. Each admin is accountable for their actions. We all agreed with site ban, but why did I oppose the original block? Did you state anything about "trolling, hurling various anti-semetic accusations and disrupting some article pages" in your rationales? OK, maybe not - but at least it was documented and established somewhere, right? No, which is why I was helpless in opposing procedurally until one of these points was addressed, after which I did not oppose any measure. It was one of the few times (perhaps the first time) I directed a criticism with your approach - how long would've it taken to document the problems more effectively, or to at least write a better rationale than "My patience is certainly limited" (block log) or "I don't normally block for "venting", but he needed to be shown the door months ago"? Which approach is likely to remedy the community's fear? Am I responsible for remedying that fear? You and I both know what disruptive editing is with a look at a handful of contributions - others, particularly less established contributors who step into this area, need to be able to follow what has happened, particularly as the block came about from what was already an ANI discussion to begin with. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
        • Well the bulk of my comment wasn't meant to begin a retreading of that block. I just wanted to bring it up as an example. My point is that establishing some bureaucratic apparatus around lesser measures than are already at my disposal only incentivizes me to choose those greater measures. As for the fear that admins will misuse the privilege, I have no doubt that some will, just as some abuse the technical and social tools at their disposal now. But we can't wish away the incentive problem. Protonk (talk) 07:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
          • I don't think that gives you any incentive though. See, if an admin had the choice between leaving a warning (and logging it) as opposed to executing a block with a proper block rationale, and responding to the concerns of the user blocked, and potentially having the block discussed at ANI, which is more bureaucratic? Moreover, is fear (read: chilling effect) or incentive the bigger problem? I guess it depends on the situation, but a lot of editors tend to separate admins as a separate class of user not because policy tells them to, but some admins conduct makes them feel that way. It would be less of an issue if it was a relatively new user who engaged in disruption and felt that way, but very established contributors are fearing just what lengths admins will go to. This is evidenced by the community becoming more and more keen to develop its own desysop process, with adequate safeguards, yet with the ability to faster achieve the outcome that they want: they don't want to feel this way about admins in general, and that means weeding out the ones who are unfit to retain their privilleges. Despite this, I still believe incentive plays an important role as you say, but I don't think it's because of bureaucracy - it's more because admins prefer to do what they are used to rather than newer and novel (read: lesser) measures that are likely to be placed under an unpredictable level of scrutiny. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
• One thing that seems to be missing from this discussion is the realization that had a less lenient administrator come across that SPI case, User:Kils would have been blocked indefinitely. There would have been no discussion about that on AN/ANI; the block would be made by one administrator and no one else would have commented. So I fail to see why, when a less harsh restriction is applied, we must discuss it. 72.93.78.209 (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Read the discussions at Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions? Perhaps you can explain why does the community prefer keeping the status quo of having to discuss such sanctions? Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
    • I have read the discussions there, and I still cannot understand it. DGG's question, for example, was never fully answered. The best answer to "What is the difference between saying "if you continue editing disruptively at article X, I shall block you to prevent further disruption" and "I prohibit you from continuing to edit at article X for a short time."" was Christopher Parham's answer of "The editor is permitted to make non-disruptive edits under #1 and not under #2, while disruptive edits meet the same response under each." I do not intend to rehash the debates of WT:DSN, but I do not see why you believe that saying "Don’t act disruptively or I’ll block you” (as Jehochman did with his restriction) is worse than Jehochman saying “you are blocked indefinitely for violating WP:SOCK. In the latter, we lose someone who could be a great contributor, while we only slightly restrict them in the former. 72.93.78.209 (talk) 17:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC) I realize I seem like a sock, but since I had posted in this thread as an IP by accident, I shall not jump into this thread with my account
      • That is exactly my point (noted at the top of the thread): I cannot understand it. As I've tried very hard to express to many who have commented now, I'd like to find a way so that it I (and others) can understand it, so that the community has a page to refer to for guidance, and so that admins have explicit authority to do so. How to achieve that - that was what I wanted input on, and so far, Sandstein is the only user who has focussed on (and began addressing) that. If others could respond to my reply to him, that would be the most useful (and appreciated). Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
        • User:Kils was lucky not to be blocked indefinitely. Those restrictions are entirely reasonable. Do you want him to be editing pages on which he has a conflict of interest and !votestacking AfDs with his sockpuppets, or are you just Wikilawyering for the sake of it? Fences&Windows 17:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
          • Does your input help "develop guidelines and policies on" Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions or a similar proposal? I fail to see it, but if you could point it out to me, that would be great. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
            • It would've been a lot less drama to bring the proposal to the community for approval before trying to enact the would-be sanction. Durova³⁷⁹ 18:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
              • I respect the sentiment but frankly I doubt it. Protonk (talk) 18:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
                • The last time it went to ArbCom and is still sitting there; probably could have been resolved at the community level if the cart hadn't jumped in front of the horse. When an admin thinks the community would agree, just ask the community up front. Durova³⁷⁹ 23:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
            • Please don't try to regulate what I can and can't say on this board. The thread on AN/I about Kil's editing received a lot of attention and the SPI was linked to from it. Nobody involved in that thread or SPI raised any objections to the editing sanctions, nor anyone at the reopened AfD. If your only issue is whether the sanctions should have been noted at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions, then why not discuss it there rather than here? Unless anyone has substantial objections to the sanctions on User:Kils, objecting to them on grounds of bureaucracy isn't helpful. Fences&Windows 19:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want to improve policy, Ncmvocalist, I recommend starting a discussion at the relevant policy or process pages, such as Wikipedia:Administrators and Wikipedia:Editing restrictions. Get some initial feedback, develop a proposal, and then if you need more feedback, start an WP:RfC, post to WP:AN or list the discussion at WP:CENT. If you want to dispute the sanction on User:Kils, and that would be an odd thing to do since Kils seems to be happy with the sanction in lieu of a long block, start by explaining why you think the sanction is an inappropriate response to the problem. Jehochman ^Talk 20:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't mean to be too pointed, Jehochman, but on your ArbCom candidacy page you list one of your three most important principles on Wikipedia as follows: "All editors have equal stature. Some gain access to additional tools through experience, but this does not entitle them to deferential treatment. We have no royalty." Yet here you seem to think that administrators should be able to declare and log sanctions apart from the general community. Then above you tell Ncmvocalist that his "behavior is inappropriate" rather than responding to the points raised (Ncmvocalist's comment to you seems to me entirely courteous); you then reaffirm that only another administrator act further on the matter as if the community is irrelevant. With all due respect, I am not understanding your position at all. Mackan79 (talk) 21:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Kils was editing in a way that warranted an indefinite block. Instead, I decided to give him another chance. To help ensure that he would not repeat the problematic behavior and get himself blocked, I and several other editors at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kils worked out a list of restrictions, and recorded them at User:Kils/Restriction with a convenience link at Wikipedia: Editing restrictions (for great transparency, and reliable enforcement). As yet, nobody has challenged the restrictions on the merits, not even Kils. What we have on this thread are a few editors who apparently delight in creating bureaucracy and stirring up controversy. They seem to think Wikipedia is a sport or a battleground. It's not. We do whatever makes sense to prevent disruption of the project. Kils was behaving disruptively, and we found a way to stop that without having to resort to a block. You think that people who appreciate a creative solution that helps retain a valuable editor, but sadly, no. Every opportunity to debate and challenge must be taken at Wikipedia, even when doing so creates no benefit. This makes me very sad. Jehochman ^Talk 00:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I just saw this, pardon my not responding here. I agree with your attempt at a nuanced sanction, actually. The only problem I see is with suggesting that it is somehow different from a community sanction. I see that many of the community sanctions listed on Wikipedia:Editing restrictions were discussed not just on this page, but on the COI notice board, or on user pages, or in other places. I don't think this was different from several of them. Thus I think what you did should be listed as a community sanction, end of problem. Mackan79 (talk) 00:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I just posted a few minutes ago! You're very prompt. All participants, please see WP:BAN. I'm going to make a bold edit over there explaining how things actually work. Mackan79, you're right. Feel free to move the Kils sanction up into the Community Sanction area, and get rid of the subsection I created. Jehochman ^Talk 01:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Just an idea- perhaps require that discretionary sanctions can only be issued by an ad-hoc group of 3 admins? This would possibly avoid concern that a single admin could abuse the process. Basket of Puppies 21:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • This isn't a discretionary sanction. That's a strawman argument advanced by those who apparently prefer to argue than to write articles. Kils has been subject to an editing restriction based on existing policy that simply precludes Kils from doing that which is already forbidden, under pain of an immediate block. It's logically equivalent to a final warning. Jehochman ^Talk 00:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
    • The character of your warnings is no different from a discretionary sanction Jonathon - they result in blocks for violations and they are logged publically at your discretion. Perhaps if you tried being more receptive to feedback rather than furthering an incredibly clumsy approach to such matters, there would be no issue. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• On occasion I have done something similar to Jehochman, I don't give warnings for anything but strict policy matters (e.g. be discuss your changes, don't edit war), but once a user is blocked, I may offer to unblock them (in response to a request) if they agree to conditions that are not strict policy matters, and are more like editing restrictions. These conditions would be something like I will unblock you now if you agree not to edit articles related to Africa, or similar (until the block would have expired). My reasoning is that if they are going to productively contribute elsewhere, there is no reason to block them from editing in places they were not causing a problem. Prodego ^talk 21:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• Right, but where do you log those conditions, other than the user's talk page? Do you think we should have a system where all conditionally unblocked users, and all otherwise warned users, have a central log that is no different to current community sanctions? Or should that be discretionary? Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Déjà vu: [55]. --GoRight (talk) 22:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the argument we need more bureaucracy, does anybody think the sanction is improper on the merits, to wit:

1. Kils should not be restricted because his socking and COI editing weren't that severe, or
2. Kils should be blocked instead of restricted because his offenses are so bad he does not deserve another chance.

Speak now, or else this thread should be closed. If you would like to discuss policy, this board isn't as good as the relevant policy talk page. Jehochman ^Talk 00:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Come on Jehochman, please don't ask that we quickly close a thread about a change in process that you apparently would like to implement. That nobody here has a problem with the sanction suggests it is community imposed, so why would we differentiate it? Needless distinctions, different forms for functionally the same thing, I'd think that's what most people consider bureaucracy. Mackan79 (talk) 00:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm waiting for someone to explain how an "adminsitrator sanction" is different from a "community sanction," and why we would differentiate between the two. Is the idea to encourage admins to issue detailed sanctions without community input? Jehochman says this was discussed at WP:SPI, and that an additional discussion would be superfluous. This suggests to me that he believes it is a community sanction as it stands (I have no reason to contest this). So why differentiate it from a community sanction? It's odd to me the suggestion that it would be bureaucratic not to separate two things that aren't actually different. Mackan79 (talk) 00:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Well, aside from the idea that the Kril thing may put WP:SOCK at slight odds with WP:ROLE in the sense that we are saying "anyone is welcome to edit" - but, you can't use somebody else's computer and/or IP etc. Oh, yea, the discussion at the "Discretionary sanctions" talk page (here), seems to indicate that the community not only does not achieve consensus for such things (individual admin. imposed sanctions), but that they did achieve consensus to reject such things. My take on that is that the community does not want individual admins. attempting to make "law". Indeed, I do share that view. Since these so called "restrictions" posted on User:Kils/Restriction simply re-state what we have in policy and have done in practice - perhaps we should consider moving that little "Admin Restrictions" thing up into the community sanctions area. Especially since we don't even have such a thing mentioned (the last time I looked anyway) in the context of explanation on Wikipedia:Editing restrictions. While I normally would expect such "consensus" to be developed at WP:AN or WP:ANI, Jonathan does have valid points in the SPI discussion. Perhaps if an admin feels we need to set these particular "sanctioning acts" apart from current practice, we could look at developing a Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Sanctions board. There, we get both the ability of the admin to bring ideas to light, and still give the community the opportunity to add their weight to such things. — Ched :  ?  01:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • On a historical note, we had a community sanctions board, but it was moved into AN/I before my time. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Community sanction noticeboard (second nomination). Protonk (talk) 01:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Ched, re: "Well, aside from the idea that the Kril thing may put WP:SOCK at slight odds with WP:ROLE in the sense that we are saying "anyone is welcome to edit" - but, you can't use somebody else's computer and/or IP etc", there were in fact no role accounts, this was all just one person, at least for the recent edits. The behavioural and language evidence is pretty final on that. Fences&Windows 02:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

thank you both. Protonk - I wasn't aware of that page - before my time and all. F&W, thank you as well - I've never been real big on the whole "sock" thing - and just reading through the restriction page at the users "/page" - I thought perhaps it was several friends, co-workers etc. that were using his PC to edit. I don't question the restriction by the way, and in fact I'm always glad to see someone make an effort to bring a user into conformity rather than just blocking or site banning. My thoughts are simply that perhaps it raises more heat than light if just 1 or 2 admins. try to impose a "restriction" rather than getting some consensus from the community in general. I thought a centralized "sanctions" page might offer the best of both worlds so to speak. — Ched :  ?  02:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Policy update

I have updated policy to reflect the common sense idea and existing practice that a lengthy discussion is not necessary when the subject willingly accepts the sanction. Please see this edit, and feel free to revise or discuss. Jehochman ^Talk 01:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I see you replied to Mackan79's comment, in which he implied that your particular sanction was discussed in multiple locations, validating calling it a community sanction. The edit you've made to WP:BAN suggests those discussions aren't necessarily needed. I'm not really sure that the above discussion supports that conclusion. Equazcion (talk) 01:45, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

I'm tentatively planning to revert this edit. Whether one deems it common sense or not, this would be a permeating declaration: that any editor can impose restrictions on any other, without discussion. The discussion above is more or less about this, and is far from resolved to the point that policy can be changed based on it. Equazcion (talk) 01:56, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

This change does not take into account people with an disposition to subordination to any kind of authority. An admin who spots this trait might abuse it. Hans Adler 02:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

@Jehochman - That update to the policy has never been supported by a community consensus that I am aware of, and indeed that topic has been discussed there at length as I pointed to above. Can you point me to any discussion of that which has reached such a consensus?

You assert that this discussion constitutes a community ban on Kils yet the word "ban" does not appear in the discussion at all. Can you please explain this apparent discrepency? (Note that I am not taking a stand either way on Kils)

Finally, you assert that if the subject does not object to the ban then it may be logged due to that fact. What happens if the subject later changes their mind and revokes their consent? Is the log entry automatically removed? --GoRight (talk) 02:17, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted the change, for the reasons I explained above. Equazcion (talk) 02:24, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

Agreed with Equazcion, and the place to discuss changes to policy is at policy talk, not here. Administrators have no special standing in determining policy. Durova³⁷⁹ 03:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

If the same discussion occurred on the policy talk page, could the edit still be committed? Protonk (talk) 04:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Depends on whether or not the discussion shows consensus, and on whether or not the person posing the question is being cheekily rhetorical. Equazcion (talk) 04:48, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

Responding to one other point raised by Mackan about sanctions being imposed at COI noticeboards etc., those discussions were announced at AN and ANI so that maximum input was received. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Moving forward

A lot of useful (and not-so-useful) issues have been raised here. Administrators are authorised to issue blocks in accordance with block policy, and the appeal grounds for blocks have also been authorised. Administrators are expected to issue warnings, where appropriate, before issuing blocks. However, these warnings are generally logged at user talk pages, and in block logs. (The same goes with conditional unblocks.) Whether to block or warn (or sanction) is at the discretion of the admin imposing the measure.

Admins who log certain users warnings/sanctions in a more public central location (like Wikipedia:Editing restrictions) are exercising the sort of discretion that was being proposed at Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions which is what may make it problematic. There are only 2 ways out of this:

1. Log all conditional unblocks, warnings, imposed on users, in a central public log dedicated to logging such warnings, or;
2. Give admins that kind of discretion via another form of Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions.

Unless I've missed something (in which case I invite comments to that effect), the input needed at this time is which is preferrable, and how to discuss or rediscuss these so that we have effective guidance on the matter. (i.e. should a new Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions be created or can the original be modified? what do we do about the existing discussion on the relevant talk page? what's the best format for conducting that discussion?). I'm assuming new pages need to be created? Should we just continue that format of discussion, or should we do an ArbCom RfC style discussion? Thank you. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This thread was undesirable and uncivil. You posted excessively in an apparent attempt to dominate the discussion with your view. The discussion has become so long that I doubt many uninvolved editors will bother to read it all and participate. Administrators are selected for their judgment, and they are expected to use it to benefit the project. If an editor does something particularly disruptive, it is within an administrator's powers to tell that user what they did wrong, and create a record for the user, and others, to reference. It is not sensible to suggest that administrators can block at will, but that they must have a length, bureaucratic discussion before issuing and logging a warning. You're seriously confusing two different issues:

1. Discretionary sanctions that can prohibit otherwise acceptable editing (e.g. topic ban, one revert per week limitation).
2. Editing restrictions that specifically prohibit a user from further violations of policy, under penalty of block for failure to comply.

The first type of sanctions require ArbCom or community approval. The second type can be done by any individual administrator when necessary to protect the project. Jehochman ^Talk 11:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

There's sometimes a fine line between those two. Calling your #2 case "restrictions" probably adds to the ambiguousness and confusion. User:Kils/Restriction, by title alone, and by it having been listed on this page, seems more like community sanctions of "otherwise acceptable" actions than what you intended. Why not just call those cases "warnings", and avoid the confusion? When someone is in danger of crossing the line, what they're issued are defined as "warnings", not "restrictions". Additionally, your attempted change to WP:BAN doesn't seem to agree with what you've said here; unless you take "community sanctions" to mean "prohibiting a user from further policy violation". In the end, Kils' "restrictions", which sparked this discussion, may have been a misunderstanding falling under your issue #2. Nevertheless, the larger issue, and the question of changing WP:BAN, seem to still fall under #1. Equazcion (talk) 11:49, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

We generally have a problem that we don't follow up well on long term behavioral issues. A talk page warning is insufficient because it gets buried, removed or archived by the time subsequent editors need to see it. Wikipedia:Editing restrictions is a process page that can be used for any productive purpose. If we want to log "final warnings" there as "restrictions", that is allowed. I am open to discussing nomenclature. What we call things affects how people understand them. Lastly, I did not create User:Kils/Restriction. That was User:NuclearWarfare's doing. Maybe that page should be moved to User:Kils/Final warning, and we should create another process page such as Wikipedia:Final warnings to keep track of such user pages. I am open to naming things however people like, as long as we have an efficient means of record keeping. Jehochman ^Talk 13:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

A new page could be one way to go. A new section could also just be added to Wikipedia:Editing restrictions entitled "Final warnings" or something. Equazcion (talk) 13:28, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

I created a new section. Let's see what happens. If the idea catches on and the list becomes too long, it can be broken out into a separate page. Jehochman ^Talk 13:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Equazcion (talk) 13:35, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Kils specific case: Items #3 and #4 are actual editing restrictions, rather than warnings. They should either be removed, or Kils' listing needs to remain under the other section. Equazcion (talk) 13:42, 11 Dec 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of consistency, and to exercise the new process, I have changed the wording of #3 and #4 to "should avoid", matching the wording of WP:COI. They could potentially make non-controversial edits to those pages, but any sort of troublesome editing is likely to result in a block. The purpose is to hold them to WP:COI, not to create novel obligations. Jehochman ^Talk 13:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Jehochman, you imposed this "sanction" in the same way as last time - feedback is having zero % impact on you or you would've clearly marked it a warning earlier. Still, my request in this thread was narrowly framed to deal with processes, and any appearance of me dominating were attempts to focus on such issues that I required input on - the reason this thread was created. The fact that the discussion returns to you suggests your judgement has been bleeding from foolishness and causing a mess, which was not what you were given the mop for. I suggest you find ways to improve your understanding of what you are meant to do (in full, rather than the clumsy partial-jobs you've been doing) when exercising the judgement that the community perceived you would have. That is, fully reading comments/feedback directed to you so that you can be receptive to it, actually using noticeboards properly (case announcements are also listed at WP:AN), practising the courtesy you preach and supposedly enforce, etc. There are ways to avoid controversy, but your comments and actions, Jehochman, have jointly and repeatedly been text book examples of How to cause Wikipedia controversy with maximum drama. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Lengthy

As someone who tried to "sort out" the Kils matter for literally several straight nights, I openly applauded Jehochman for an incredibly high level of restraint in the matter and find it asinine to see here like this. If you actually go look at the whole case, you'll find that the SPI and "regulations" imposed were after a block and unblock less than a week earlier, 5 ANIs, about a hundred "final warnings" on talk page, about 500 messages sent to any editor speaking in opposition to anything, about 1000 messages sent running around soliciting support, and the constant attention of about a dozen editors to keep things in order.

Other issues included requests for preferential treatment at AfD because of supposed large Foundation donation which was already flaunted as reason for an unblock (but failed), and open lies in several forums of discussion at every step in the process. Really... Ncmvocalist, it's the most admin restraint I've ever seen and a lot of others would have just up and blocked the user a half dozen incidents prior. A number of editors around were pretty shocked at those SPI results. Even after the restrictions with immediate violations even after further warnings, Jehochman figured we should all disappear for a few days instead of wait for whatever was next.

The User:Kils case is the last thing to criticize over. It's more like a case study. Considering Kils could just have been given an indef block with likely no objections whatsoever and that many editors are often blocked for far, far less, seeing this as "evidence" is really sad. I can appreciate how long it might take to read over the entire case file, though. Would a better solution to this be that SPI closers just block anyone, avoiding sanctions? All ANI trouble-makers? Perhaps admims should actively bait one another into wheel warring by singling out sensitive matters that are more likely to "suggest" block vs talk. Any restrictions on that list are better than a block, is how I see it. Every case is different. People are trusted to make these decisions for a reason, after much logic, common sense and even some level of mercy applied (such as with Kils). Let them do their thing. If you don't like it, remind of the appeals process. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 05:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

• Now the dust has swirled into a nice shaped dustdevil ... perhaps it's time for a comment composed when I misunderstood the matter (Kils matrix coefficients still seem order of magnitude off :-), but anyway, I'm sure this applies to something, even if not this.

  + One (good!) administrator may well speak more clearly in the voice of the community than ad hoc attract-ees.

  + And one admin "signing their name" (glad to see table expanded for that column) is more easily held accountable than transient outlaw gang momentarily donning "community" t-shirts.

  Perhaps only for extraordinary occasions, but I support (good!) administrator sanctions section. Proofreader77 (talk) 06:03, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Problem is, supposed personal fiat sanctions set the community up for major strife and drama. This instance might be good; so what? The community has enough sense to approve good solutions. It's the bad ideas that need to get filtered out. Admins who think they're so clever shouldn't mind coming to the admin boards to get patted on the back when they devise a Solomonic solution. The only reason for an admin to avoid community approval is to dodge scrutiny when the community disapproves. You've been around long enough to know what happens then: an ounce of foresight is worth ten pounds of drama. Durova³⁷⁹ 21:43, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Since the splendiferous (Buffy ref?^^) Durova is indented beneath the now-dragged-to-ANI-twice and-therefore-learning-quickly Proofreader77 (Note: Second time, better result :-), I will respond ...

      There is "been around," and then there is been around (and only recently the second) ... and based on that, I'd say perhaps a new bit be added :-) for a class of "Solomonistic" admins (need new word:), who have proven they are masters of bullshit interpretation, demonstrated callous disregard for social bonds which might compromise precision fairness, and who God herself has chosen to illuminate with pure white light when all others nearby are under the clouds of darkness.

      P.S. I am working on a multiple choice test. lol Proofreader77 (talk) 01:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

      • Would this be, effectively, a "lower-tier" ArbCom, or "night-court" version of same? And thanks for describing me so well in the last clause by the way. ;) John Carter (talk) 02:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
        • Had to do a bit ;-) of research on that before answering ...

          The programmers on Wikitech-l mailing list have informed me that adding a bit in the middle is impossible, which means it must be added above founder bit — and given that aforementioned God herself has offered lightening-bolt enforcement of her en-lightened admins ... I think that means that "lower" is not quite an appropriate word in this context. ("Night court," requires further rhetorical matrix calculations).

          And yes, I must admit that John Carter was foremost in my thoughts when composing that description :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 02:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Quack quack

CharlesJohnson22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) would appear to be John Bambenek on his quarterly drive-by to get his article created. Guy (Help!) 23:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

We should have an edit filter put in place so no one can type his name on the English Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Really.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Damn. There's more where that came from.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I love this one: "We still (reluctantly) allow them to edit". Didn't the Fat Man just return to editing a week ago?--Atlan (talk) 08:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe the departure was voluntary or the result of an autoblock placed on an IP he used to vandalize with or something. He has had a colorful history, no more than my own though.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm aware of both your histories, I've been around long enough. What I meant was that he speaks of allowing you to edit reluctantly, while he's hardly been around to allow or disallow you much of anything.--Atlan (talk) 08:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The block logs are merely asides. I do think something should be done concerning the currently "recreated" article and its author if I am correct about him.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

←CharlesJohnson22 blocked. Tiptoety ^talk 09:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The Fat Man Who Never Came Back

• So, to the comments by The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This suggests pro-LaRouche activism and WP:ABF (incidentally, I don't know about anyone else, but I had absolutely no idea that Bambenek is a LaRouche supporter, and I wouldn't care even if I did because I know virtually nothing about LaRouche other than that it is a long-running source of conflict on Wikipedia). Guy (Help!) 15:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

More likely it suggests trolling, considering his subsequent delete vote at the Mfd: [56].--Atlan (talk) 15:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I have no previous memory of this user, but considering that he has a block record for such issues as "Ban evasion, troublemaking, vandalism, disruptive editing, and appaling humor", as well as apparently an IP dedicated to Wikipedia vandalism, and now seems to continue to disrupt Wikipedia after a "last chance" unblock of his IP, any reason why we should not issue an indef block?  Sandstein  15:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was getting at. It seems his return to active editing is not with any constructive intent.--Atlan (talk) 16:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it would not be overly harsh to characterise him as a serial timewaster. How thin people's patience has worn I would not know, but I don't see much evidence of good to offset the downright tiresome. Guy (Help!) 23:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Seriously? TFM a serial timewaster? Not in my experience. He procured the images and wrote the blurb, that garnered this press comment: "Whoever wrote the fake Ima Hogg bio might want to think about pursuing a career in screenwriting. It sounds more amusing than any of the movies I've seen recently..." The man can write, and has. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello there. In Guy's defense, that was kind of a long time ago... so I'm sure whatever marginal wikicapital I obtained at the time is mostly depleted by now. I suppose I should have taken Giano more seriously when he advised me long ago that the only way he one can really get away with blatant cabal-baiting and hijinks on Wikipedia is to offset one's verbal abuse with sterling content contributions. I might have to write an article on braising or chikan porn or something so I can delay my banning for a few more months....--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Is he allowed to do this?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:32, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I've seen it done before. It's called "transuserfying", I believe. @Kate (parlez) 20:34, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, the more specific question is "is he doing this solely to spite everyone else?"—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:36, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest that is yet more nonsense, since I have not received any friend request from anyone I don't know IRL in the last three weeks. Guy (Help!) 08:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Considering he voted delete at the Mfd (a vote that still stands despite the pagemove), and considering he claims to get the article to featured status with his "team of experts" and needs 18 days to do that, I still assume he's trolling.--Atlan (talk) 21:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to disagree with that analysis. Some action would seem to me to be appropriate, perhaps beginning with a restriction on senseless meta-drama. Can anyone find examples of things he's done which offset the cost of managing his foolishness? Guy (Help!) 15:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

TFM has made very few constructive contributions in the past 3 and half years (I believe he has fewer than 70 mainspace edits), but his 2006-2008 talk page is highly entertaining. Also, his Arbcom candidacy (which finished with a majority of support votes) Q&A was an enlightening read.--The Fat Man Who Left but Returned a Short While Later (talk) 16:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, using a blatantly obvious sock puppet account to reply to a discussion of one's own behavior on Wikipedia is really pushing it.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:30, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

"I operate on an elevated plane." Ha! Someone please block, lest we have to deal with this BS any longer. I doubt many people find him an "utter delight" and want him to stay. This discussion is nothing more than feeding the troll.--Atlan (talk) 20:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's how you deal with the Fat Man: approach everything he does in the spirit in which it's intended. Follow that advice and you will find him a distinctly enriching presence. I'd say "Ban him, and I go with him," but then somebody might call my bluff and I'd look like a fool, so I'll acquiesce with "Ban him, and I shall be sorely disappointed". Steve Smith (talk) 03:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better if the "enriching presence" took the form of useful contribution? Our admin corps is stretched thin on essential work and Facebook is thataway. Durova³⁷⁹ 03:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Was this a useful content contribution? I write featured articles, and I'd prefer that the Fat Man be around while I do it. That's not determinative, of course, but you ought perhaps to broaden your definition of "useful contribution". Steve Smith (talk) 04:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Considering that I was never quitting in the first place, asking me not to was farcical. Less than a week ago he was telling me "your advice is like swine before pearls" and claiming a right to "habitually rude to the habitually uninformed."[57] Wikipedia is not a social networking site. Facebook is. Strawman argumentation is the sort of thing that tips my opinion from support for an indef to strong support; tread lightly. Durova³⁷⁹ 04:22, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I have a response to this, but I would hate to tip your strong support of a Big Fat Ban one step further into to ludicrous support territory, which is reserved only for the most ultrasupportive of all support levels. Steve's right that we used to be pals. Don't you remember all the fun times we had banning Bus stop and battling David Shankbone's stalker? Once I am blocked, do you want to be Facebook friends?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 05:50, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you suggesting it's acceptable to hurl insults at Will Beback, Ryulong and JzG on their respective Facebook pages? Well, I friended all three of them and received no response.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

That's for Facebook to deal with. The man's "humor" amounts to little other than disruptive sniping. Virtually nothing redeeming on the content side. Support indef. Durova³⁷⁹ 04:04, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Indef blocks are a scarce commodity. We should not waste them on harmless users. Jehochman ^Talk 04:17, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, there's value in a good laugh. He's not hurting anybody. Jehochman ^Talk 03:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Steve Smith has it right on this issue. The Man of Ample Girth is a much needed antidote to WikiPomposity - which is in ample supply of late. Crafty (talk) 03:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

So we let a user who is very clearly trolling (claiming to bring another user's self-promotional content to featured article status, accusing other users of various misdeeds, purposefully vandalising the project when signed out, sockpuppeting to comment on his own behavior) stay because on the whole part he brings levity to the project?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:22, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

You need to relax a bit Ryulong lest you bust a valve. You have a tendency to over-egg the pudding. Perhaps some tea? Crafty (talk) 05:01, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

No, this is asinine

Support. Steve Smith (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

That's asinine.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:29, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Here's my less asinine response: the vandalism was bad. He was blocked for it. He served his time, agreed to stop, and has kept to that pledge. The sockpuppetry is, as you acknowledge, transparent; it is not being done "to mislead, deceive, or disrupt; to create the illusion of greater support for a position; to stir up controversy; or to circumvent a block". I wish he'd tone down the snide comments somewhat, but they're no worse than what fifty admins get away with, and he at least manages not to take himself seriously while he makes them. Steve Smith (talk) 04:33, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not sock puppetry at all. It's a guy using an alternate account for humorous purposes. He's not evading a block. Ryulong, dude, just walk away and forget about it. There's nothing that needs to be done here. Jehochman ^Talk 04:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Precisely, this is no different to Raul654's "ceilingcat" account. I see a couple of people calling for Fat Man's head for use of an account for "humorous" purposes who bent over backwards to defend the same from Raul... Achromatic (talk) 05:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

lolfatties --MZMcBride (talk) 06:26, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• Tznkai has given him 24 hours in the boob. Crafty (talk) 06:28, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I've blocked him for 24 hours. Fat man came back with the promise to stop vandalism, and edit articles, and to his credit he has, to my knowledge, done both of those things. That does not change the fact that Wikipedia is not a battleground, and it is not a place to exercise personal grudges and broadcast dirty laundry.

Grave dancing is discouraged.--Tznkai (talk) 06:33, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Please remember, that stand-up comedy notwithstanding, there is actually a difference between meanness and humor.--Tznkai (talk) 06:40, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. Playing silly buggers on the side when you are also doing good for the project is absolutely fine. Making copies of autobiographies written by banned users is not. The problem with Fat Man's current behaviour is that it's causing people to waste time. Joking around on user talk is not such a problem because you can opt out of wasting time that way by just ignoring it, causing unnecessary extra work for volunteers who are already busy is just not acceptable. I'd be quite happy if Fat Man could understand this essential distinction and work within it. His April 1 thing was really well done, that's a great outlet for literate person with a sense of humour. Faffing around as he has been this last week really isn't. Guy (Help!) 09:06, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I can agree with most of that, though I think a good deal less time would have been wasted if people didn't take him so seriously. I don't even particularly object to Tznkai's block, though, again, his actions probably only initiated the battleground because people took him seriously. I do object to the sentiment that we should indef-block our cleverest gadflies for insufficient content contributions. Steve Smith (talk) 10:08, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Hear hear! (And I see the donkey nodding, too :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 10:25, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

What is not to take serious about his userfying an article creating by a banned user and the subsequent antics at the Mfd and the talk page? I'm all for a little fun and levity, but he's having it in the wrong places. I don't see why he should be able to get away with everything, simply because he's so hilarious to some of you. Besides, while maybe his fun and games were offset by his number of constructive edits in the past, I don't see any of those constructive edits now.--Atlan (talk) 11:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a POV dispute between the pro-silly and the anti-silly factions. Shall I add a tag for this section? :-) (It's 4AM and couldn't resist. Most POV disputes are so ridiculously serious, I'd like to see a lighthearted one once.) Forgive me, Atlan, it's been a long day. Proofreader77 (talk) 12:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Heh, no problem. I realize full well criticizing one's humor makes you look too serious in contrast. I'll try to think of something funny to counter that view. I'll take the instant indef block-immunity that apparently comes with it as a bonus. ;-) --Atlan (talk) 13:06, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd say "Ban him, and I go with him," but then somebody might call my bluff and I'd look like a fool, so I'll acquiesce with "Ban him, and I shall be sorely disappointed". I dunno; I might actually go with him. I'm not the only editor who counts on TFM's wit, straight-shooting and insight into human nature to keep me editing through troll- and POV-infested Wiki days, and I suspect that people's reactions to His Imminence are closely related to their sense of perspective. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:32, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• Let's hope that variety of wit is not popular. Sniping humor in public fora without the consent of the subject is often nothing more than thinly veiled cruelty and aggression. It speaks nearly as poorly of the people who relish it as of the people who perpetrate it. Durova³⁸⁰ 16:42, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Could you back that up with diffs, please. I'm interested to see the examples. Maybe I'll change my tune if you show them to me. Jehochman ^Talk 16:52, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed Durova. This is the third or forth time you've popped in to remind us about TFM's beastliness, presumably towards yourself. How about some diffs so that the rest of us may assay the gravity of his crimes. Crafty (talk) 18:49, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

heh... 'gravity' geddit? there's lots of it, 'cos he's fat! (now that's asinine) - actually I'm just here because I only need myself and dan tobias to call wickwingo! and win ten points. Strong support all proposals. Privatemusings (talk) 22:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I blocked Fat man for abusing Wikipedia as a battleground, (the edit immediately before I blocked [58] being one example of a not so veiled and personal attack personally directed tweaking), and I mention this again because the whole point is that we stop focusing on our rather distracting petty squabbles and we move on to something else productive. If you can't do it on Wiki, I recommend finding a friend on your side of the computer screen and playing checkers.--Tznkai (talk) 21:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Did you cite the correct diff? That doesn't look like much of a personal attack. I could show you some scathing personal attacks I've come across lately, but the best of them have been Oversighted. Usually a personal attack has a target, and makes some sort of aspersions on their character, demeanor, or personal hygiene. Jehochman ^Talk 21:52, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Propose desysop of Tznkai for blocking for that. lol You've got to be kidding. Proofreader77 (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I've seen Tznkai make some pretty good and gusty blocks, so I'm willing to overlook his lapse in humor this time; he seems like a sharp enough guy, and may catch up quickly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:01, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

That diff can't even be the straw that broke the camel's back. Hell, it's not even long enough to pick buggers [boogers] with. :-) Proofreader77 (talk)

Buggers? - No need for backdoor laughs, my dear. :) Crafty (talk) 22:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

What? I thought I wrote booger? But clearly, it'snot. :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

{ec}I apologize for the use of the naughty magic word, and proofreader, it may seem strange to you, but I think thats because where you see a lack of vicious verbage, I see a complete lack of point other than to annoy.--Tznkai (talk) 22:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggest reconsideration of that position (consider that initial phrase more seriously than what follows in this ellipsis-laden sentence lol) ... while I research what's both worse than desysopping and poetic in some as-yet-never-been proposed-before way ... which will immediately be hailed by all as correct by acclamation. :-) (usually a tall order, but I'm on a rhetorical roll—discounting spelling, of course. :-) Proofreader77 (talk)

God damn. Can't we just agree that there's a difference between joking around and inherently disrupting the project by proxying for a (de facto) banned user and explicitly harboring ill will towards other users?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:28, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Blocking because admin doesn't see the point(?)

(Seriously) That cannot be the justification for a block. Period. (I'll add smiles later) Proofreader77 (talk) 23:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Tznkai wrote that the block was because of this 05:50, 14 December 2009 example and others. I assume that the other examples must be relatively serious, as the cited one by itself does not justify blocking. Perhaps His Orotundity could make comments about me, instead of about editors who don't appreciate his wit? My talk page could use some sprucing up. Eubulides (talk) 00:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Mine too scrub that. What an amazing waste of time and effort about absolutely nothing at all. It really is time that the kids were banned from wikipedia. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:18, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Mine is all sprucey :-) .... (Pre-striking any other comment due to my knowledge of the rhetorical matrix. lol) Proofreader77 (talk) 03:48, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Unblock template problem

Template:Unblock either needs better instructions or perhaps amending. user:Moonriddengirl and I have both had problems making it look right when declining. As Moonridden girl has said, " I've tested it, and the only way that I can get it to work is to replace{{subst:Decline reason here}} with the reason for the decline. I tested it here. It includes your signature in quotation marks, which is odd." If that is what you are supposed to do, then why does it say {{subst:Decline reason here}}? Have I misunderstood something? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 19:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're asking here, sorry. :-( --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Not quite sure I'm understanding. Are you confusing {{Decline reason here}}'s existence in the cut and paste when you go to decline with a function of {{unblock}} or {{unblock-reviewed}}? Syrthiss (talk) 19:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, so that's why there's a preview button. :-) Sorry, forgot to use nowiki or preview, slap me with a wet mackerel (I don't like trout). Is it clearer now? Dougweller (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Much. :-) You're supposed to replace the whole thing -- the subst is so that something useful shows up if you forget to. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) User:Syrthiss/unblocktest. It encloses both the original reason given by the unblock requester, and then your response in quotations...regardless if you supply a reason or if you use decline reason here. Syrthiss (talk) 19:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. The instructions say "If you decline the unblock request, replace this template with the following as notification. If you do not edit the text after "decline=", a default reason why the request was declined will be inserted." Maybe they could be clearer, saying that the whole subst bit should be replaced by the decline reason? I understand now why it's there. I put my decline reason after subst: because it says "Decline reason here". Dougweller (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've amended the template. I'm not the most tech person in the world, but if two of us found it confusing, there are likely to be others. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:51, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that new text is a bit clearer. I'm removing my example above now that its unneeded. Syrthiss (talk) 13:42, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Socionics

This arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision may be viewed at the link above.

• Editors of articles related to the topic of socionics are reminded to be civil and seek consensus whenever possible. Editors are encouraged to seek dispute resolution assistance as needed.
• Rmcnew (talk · contribs) and Tcaudilllg (talk · contribs) are indefinitely topic banned from all Socionics-related topics, pages, and discussions, broadly construed.
• Rmcnew (talk · contribs) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of six months.
• Tcaudilllg (talk · contribs) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of twelve months.
• Users not previously involved in Socionics and Socionics-related articles are asked to give attention to any remaining issues with the articles, including the reliability of sources used. Users should carefully review the articles for adherence to Wikipedia policies and address any perceived or discovered deficiencies. This is not a finding that the articles are or are not satisfactory in their present form, but an urging that independent members of the community examine the matter in light of the case. Participation from uninvolved editors fluent in the Russian language would be especially helpful.

For the Arbitration Committee, Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 06:28, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Discuss this

• A good job by the arbitrators in cutting through a massive pile of verbiage. Now perhaps someone can rewrite the article so it makes some kind of sense. Guy (Help!) 21:16, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Long-term unsourced articles

I wonder what one is supposed to do with articles which have gone completely unsourced for a very long time, but which are not obvious ads or WP:BLP or copyvio violations (or at least not obviously so). An example would be this: Games for Good. This has been created on 3 January 2006, and in its almost 4-year-long (but pretty uneventful) history it has never had a single source -- reliable or unreliable. What is one to do with articles such as this? The orignal creator has apparently stopped editing in January 2006. Nothing of note links to this, and googling '"Games for Good" "Hal Halpin"' or '"Games for Good" IEMA' doesn't bring any good-looking sources, either. The original creator's user name brings obvious COI associations with IEMA, but other than that I don't have anything to go on. The article text isn't an obvious ad, so I can't see that any CSD apply. I don't really want to take this to AfD, as I know next to nothing about the subject. Should I just PROD it? Again, I admit that I know nothing about the subject, only that in its entire history the article has never had a single source. -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 03:04, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a clear prod candidate. On the other hand, don't be reluctant to take an article to AfD--sometimes that results in editors finding good sources and greatly improving an article. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:11, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, prodded. Will take to AfD if disputed. On the other hand, I imagine there's plenty of similar unsourced articles around -- nothing terribly urgent, no immediate BLP or copyvio problems, but on the whole pretty useless in any case -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 03:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

You might find "Category:Articles_lacking_sources" an interesting read.  :) ArcAngel (talk) 03:45, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Life is short. Wikipedia is long. -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 03:51, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

In this case, I've found some sources for the article, and so I am disputing the prod. Obviously, the general case still stands. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 13:49, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Generally, m:eventualism is the guiding philosophy. Although, I think eventualism is a creed we cannot afford for BLPs. I've argued before we really could do we a new process for unreferenced BLPs which basically says "this article is on notice - it will be deleted after 14 days unless at least rudimentary referencing is provided. Please feel free to remove this if you are willing to supply a reference or two". A sort of long prod, which is illegitimate to remove unless you reference it.--Scott Mac (Doc) 04:05, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, as a mathematician I like to think in terms of local and global properties... A Wikipedia article may be true locally, i.e. in some (small) neighbourhood surrounding it. (Read: when edited by involved editors.) But that does not mean that it is necessarily true globally! -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 04:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I recall discussing something similar a while ago, when there was a discussion about the CSD categories.Elen of the Roads (talk) 04:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to give it a slightly longer window (something on the order of a full month or two), particularly at first, while there is (unfortunately) such a long backlog of unsourced BLPs. (Which is not to suggest that unsourced contentious or potentially libelous claims shouldn't be removed immediately, per our usual BLP standards.) In any event, I agree with the gist of the suggestion. We have articles that have had {unsourced} templates for years; eventualists or not, at some point we're going to need to prod (or PROD) our fellow editors to get off their asses and source these articles. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:34, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

On of of potential drawbacks to this is that it encourages authors to add any source, preferably an off-line one, regardless of whether it's actually a supporting reference for the article. And since references make an article look more reliable, it may mislead readers more than would a totally unref'd article. Guettarda (talk) 06:56, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

One would hope someone would still eventually figure that out (especially if the editor in question made a habit of it), and that we would treat falsification of sources as a very serious form of editing abuse. I proposed a system for deletion or userfication of unsourced articles under a prod type system (where the "prod" could be removed by anyone providing a source). It did not gain consensus at the time, but maybe time to revisit something to that effect? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 08:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Another problem with this group of articles is that while unsourced, they are generally correct, but either were created then forgotten back in the early days of Wikipedia (when adding sources was not required), or fall into that area of unwatched articles & could go through the deletion process without anyone with the knowledge to fix them ever knowing that the article is now gone. Now if someone were to do as Ekjon Lok did with Games for Good -- first make a good-faith effort to find sources, then consider nominating it for AfD (as well as mentioning that step in the nomination) -- I wouldn't object to some of these articles eventually going bye-bye. -- llywrch (talk) 09:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree with llywrch that the key here is that editors need to try to find sources first before doing the prodding. The real issue here, for example, is not so much the lack of sources in articles but that none can be found. No reliable, secondary sources = does not meet WP's guidelines for notability. I would hate to give license to people to march around tagging without unsourced articles for deletion without first seeing whether the problem could be fixed first. --Slp1 (talk) 13:43, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

That's actually the current system, and it doesn't seem to be working at sourcing our articles. Has the number of unsourced articles increased or decreased over the last few years? At the moment, Category:Articles lacking sources contains more than one hundred eighty thousand articles; more than third of those have been {unsourced} since 2007 or earlier. (I'm not even going to look at the more than two hundred thousand articles in Category:Articles with unsourced statements.) Look at BLPs and non-free images — we had very poor compliance with our nominal core content policies until we started to impose hard deadlines and genuine consequences.

The question we need to be asking ourselves as a project is, have we matured to the point where we should expect all of our articles to contain verifiable content, referenced to a reliable source? By extension, is it now reasonable to ask that all of our articles be supported by at least one relevant source within a month (let's say) of their creation? This is a problem that's going to get worse – not better – if we leave it alone. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I suppose it depends whether you consider unsourced articles a major problem or not. I'm not sure I do, per se. The real problem is when they violate our other policies (copyvio, npov, etc). An article without refs can be accurate, informative and verifiable, even if not currently verified. But I would agree that unsourced BLPs are a major problem, one that needs to be solved with some urgency.--Slp1 (talk) 22:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Prodded by some feelings of guilt about the 180,000 unsourced, I decided to remove one. The one I clicked at random (in the unsourced since 2006 cat) was Lady Reading Hospital. It was generally a fine article, and in my view, Wikipedia would be the worse without it, even without sources, though these were easy to find. I'd be sorry if articles like this were being threatened with deletion.--Slp1 (talk) 00:25, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

By the by, an "unreferenced BLP notification bot" was approved a while ago, but apparently not created. See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/Archive_24#Unreferenced_BLP_notification_bot and Wikipedia:Bot_requests/Archive_31#Unreferenced_BLP_notification. Rd232 ^talk 17:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Update: bot nearly ready. Wikipedia:Bot_requests#Bot_to_notify_maijor_contributors_that_their_BLP_is_unrefrenced. Rd232 ^talk 18:01, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Last chance to vote in the Arbitration Committee Elections

This is a brief reminder to all interested editors that today is the final day to vote in the December 2009 elections to elect new members to the Arbitration Committee. The voting period opened at 00:01 on UTC 1 December 2009 and will close at 23:59 UTC on 14 December 2009 as initially planned. Updated 21:02, 13 December 2009 (UTC).

The voting this year is by secret ballot using the SecurePoll extension. All unblocked editors who had at least 150 mainspace edits on or before 1 November 2009 are eligible to vote (check your account). Prospective voters are invited to review the candidate statements and the candidates' individual questions pages. Although voting is by secret ballot, and only votes submitted in this way will be counted, you are invited to leave brief comments on the candidates' comment pages and discuss candidates at length on the attached talkpages. If you have any questions or difficulties with the voting setup, please ask at the election talkpage. For live discussion, join #wikipedia-en-ace on freenode.

Follow this link to cast your vote

For the coordinators,  Skomorokh  12:55, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't that mean tomorrow is the final day to vote? Durova³⁷⁹ 21:48, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, today is December 13th. The 14th would be tomorrow night my time.Mitch32^{(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!)} 21:56, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

The announcement was made when the closing time was either approx. 11 or 35 hours away; a day and two nights or vice versa at the longest, depending on your local. The elections will close tomorrow, at 23:59 UTC, so as to be absolutely clear.  Skomorokh  22:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Copyright backlogs; trying to generate solutions

In an effort to try to come up with some solutions for massive and/or chronic backlogs on copyright issues (such as at WP:PUF, WP:SCV and WP:CCI), I've opened a discussion at Areas for Reform. Please contribute, if you have any ideas. I think there's a critical need. At this moment, WP:PUF has images that have been listed for over three months, while there are literally hundreds of articles and images still waiting review at WP:CCI. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Question

Hello my talk page has been listed for speedy delete. Not sure why and not sure if I should remove it. Looking for a SYSOP, been away from the site for a bit so a bit unclear on the right thing to do here. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 01:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like someone cleared it thank again. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 01:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It was tagged for speedy deletion by Benp123456789 (talk · contribs). Mjroots (talk) 07:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

No biggie, wonder what that was all about..... oh well. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 11:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Special:Import enabled for admins in the English Wikipedia

It's now possible for admins to import edits from Meta and the German, Spanish, French, Italian, Polish and Nostalgia Wikipedias. See Wikipedia:Requests for page importation to make and respond to requests, and bug 20280 to request that more import sources be enabled for this wiki. Graham87 01:21, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Needless to say, don't go messing around with this - I just tested it by importing m:User:Ryan Postlethwaite to userspace thinking it would create a whole new page in my userspace but it just added the revisions to User:Ryan Postlethwaite. Fortunately it doesn't matter in my userspace, but it could be seriously problematic if you start testing in article space (especially if like me you don't know what you're doing). Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 01:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

To be more specific, don't go messing around with this unless you're:

• Importing into a new article with no history at all,
• Importing from Nostalgia wiki to provide attribution for very old edits, or
• Willing to undertake a nightmarish careful history and content merge

Appropriate translation templates, recategorization, etc. are required, just like a copy/paste/attribution translation, but import automatically attributes the prior edits on the other wikis. Interwiki links should be updated after importing. Acroterion _(talk) 16:00, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• Just FYI the impetus for this was, in part, to get rid of the garish {{iw-ref}} templates that are used on many, many articles. So if anyone wants to "undertake a nightmarish history and content merge", use whatlinkshere for great justice. –xeno^talk 16:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I am glad to see we do not allow direct uploading of XML export files, as they can be altered. The system of picking a wiki and page and letting it happen behind the scenes prevents this sort of abuse. This looks like a useful new tool, be careful with it folks. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 17:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Great justice, perhaps, but no epic lulz. It would appear that for the majority of the iw-ref articles, the trick is determining which diff on the original wiki was the source, and eliminating all imported diffs thereafter, no? Acroterion _(talk) 17:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Yep, pretty much. –xeno^talk 17:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

In a nutshell, this is just meant to allow us to use citations in other languages which are contained with versions of English articles from other langage Wiki's? Hiberniantears (talk) 17:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Hm, not quite. It is used to properly (assuming no SUL collisions*) attribute to the original authors material that was translated or transwiki'd from elsewhere. See Église Saint-Ambroise (Paris) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). –xeno^talk 18:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I chose Saint-Ambroise as a test, given its status as a notable building that has an article and a history on frwiki, but was redlinked here (it lacks sources too, something I'll attend to). There is considerable scope for importation of articles on people and places who are covered in other languages, always providing they can be translated. The German wiki has been doing this for some time, importing and translating FAs and DYKs from enwiki. We should return the favor: the current German FA [59] has no English equivalent, for instance. Acroterion _(talk) 18:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• I'm having fun with the old histories and this tool, 19,000 articles needs their histories in the nostalgia wikipedia. Secret ^account 18:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Dirty, Dangerous and Demeaning page blanking

The Dirty, Dangerous and Demeaning was blanked in the last month by an editor. An admin should review this edit and ensure that it has been done appropriately as I am not proficient in Wikipedia policy to engage in anything other than normal user editing. I posted to the discussion page information pertaining to the page blanking. Granite07 (talk) 05:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Can't see any blanking. User:Mostlyharmless has removed some content which he felt was unsourced and did not belong in the article. You are free to edit the article to replace any of this content if you have a good source for it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:24, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

red and anarchist black metal

Im requesting here this redirection, Red and Anarchist Black Metal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal#Red_and_Anarchist_Black_Metal_.28RABM.29 in fact is not a new article per se but just a redirection to a section of the article Black Metal. In the future i might collect enough references for an article on this subject. For now this might be enough--Eduen (talk) 07:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

You can create redirects yourself. However, there is no section called "red and anarchist black metal" to redirect to. It got deleted by User:Blackmetalbaz. Since you have called the section "National socialist black metal", "Left wing and anarchist black metal and "Red and anarchist metal" on separate occasions, it appears you've made up the concept and it's OR. I suggest you forget about it.--Atlan (talk) 15:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

DYK is almost overdue (remove this message once resolved)

In less than one hour Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:

1. Check the Next update if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
2. Once completed edit queue #6 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
3. Add {{DYKbotdo}} to the top of the page and save the page
4. When the next queue is good to go remove this entire message from the board

Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKadminBot (talk) DYKadminBot is operated by Ameliorate! ^(talk)

Need image help

I have a question for an admin, or maybe just someone familiar with the history of how images worked on Wikipedia. Any idea why the image on File:Fr unapproachable east.jpg is unrestorable? Might be interesting to know if it's because the file is older than ones I've successfully restored. It was created on 8 December 2004 and deleted on 22 November 2005, if that helps. BOZ (talk) 15:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen an image restored that was deleted that long ago. Might need to bring it up at WP:VPT or elsewhere. Wknight94 ^talk 15:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks; will do. BOZ (talk) 15:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

IIRC images before a certain date were deleted forever when they were deleted, that's why we have a legacy system that takes image deletion extremely slowly - to avoid the mistakes that cost us images permanently. I'm confident this one isn't coming back as I think images were only undeleteable after some time in 2006. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:50, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Adminstrator who passed away.

Mirwin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) sadly passed away from an heart attack over a year ago according to this and a post on the mailing list left by his brother. I blocked the account as a precaution, but what should we do with the tools? Thanks Secret ^account 20:17, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Nothing. The tools don't do anything if no one is using them. BTW, per WP:BEANS, announcing to the world "Hey, here's an account worth hacking into" is probably a bad idea. --Jayron32 20:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

A Steward should desysop. Blocking is pointless. Pedro :  Chat  20:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

How's about doing absolutely nothing. There's no evidence of a problem. Indeed these tools are much less likely to be abused than yours or mine. Certainly no more likely than any other set of tools that have been disused for a similar period - and proposals to desysop other "inactive" users have always been rejected. Doing something simply gets us into issues of verification, "is it respectful" and process. Seems to me that the smart, non-creepy things is either to desysop all account unused after a certain time, or desysop none whatsoever.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:42, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, comedy - Old Scotty turns up like a bad penny. Okay - do nothing - after all the devs have said repeatedly that inactive accounts are far less likely to be hacked (except of course that everyone now knows this is the account of a deceased user) but 'tis true. And yes - we should desysop after extended inactivity as it takes no effort to remove or add bits (as Scotty knows - he just transfered his tools from one account to another after all). But heck, consistency in argument was never Old Scotty's top table offering; so - whatever. My belated condolences to the family. Pedro :  Chat  20:53, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I really can't make head nor tail of your tirade there. I am arguing for consistency here. I'm arguing that either we should be consistent in desysopping inactive accounts after period x, or we should simply not desysop any account unless a problem develops. Either solution is dram-free and prevents any needless debate in any specific case. I'm happy with either - but since the devs say inactive accounts are not a problem - then let's stick with the status-quo and do nothing. If a deceased wikipedian has a sysop account, it is no more likely to be a problem than that of someone departed but still breathing.--Scott Mac (Doc) 21:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• Though there's the possibility of hacking, I agree that a steward should desysop the account, like they did with several adminstrators in other projects who passed away. Secret ^account 20:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

No brainer. Doesn't even need discussion here; just notify a steward to flip the bit. Any argument to the contrary is simply being contrary for the sake of it. Tan | 39 20:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

We already have done a pre-emptive dictionary attack on all admin accounts to check for easy to brute force passwords, and we have installed captchas after 2 wrong guesses and severely throttled the API login. These were the 3 major problems leading to people breaking admin passwords. The primary routes of attack that remain are key-logging, cookie-stealing, session-hijacking and forgetting to log out of a public terminal. None of these remaining routes are going to happen unless the account is in use. We can just leave it be. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 21:00, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the chances of hacking are minimal to say the least. But when we had this debate a year ago (when Scott Mac was very vocal I might add - per my reply above) consensus, as I recall, was to not block as a mark of respect to the user, but certainly to remove any advanced permissions, sans drama - "just in case". And whilst I appreciate Chillum's comments didn't Zoe and RickK's passwords leak out after they *cough* left the project? So no harm in a desysop and no benefit in not desysoping. It's only one click by a Steward. Pedro :  Chat  21:06, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I believe those cases are what led to the captchas, pre-emptive dictionary attacks, and the throttling of the API login. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 21:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Tan and with the last half of Pedro's comment above. I made the request at Meta. @Kate (parlez) 21:08, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Katerenka. Pedro :  Chat  21:16, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

If I recall corectly, the passwords were "easily guessable" if you knew the person, or something of the sort. –xeno^talk 21:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Xeno, apparently they were the same person, but this is off-topic. Secret ^account 21:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes they were, yes this is off topic, and yes I'm sure my cough was accurate. But anyhow. Pedro :  Chat  21:16, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

If we gotta do something to prevent account hijacking, desysopping seems the way to go. Blocking the account while leaving the admin bit makes no sense whatsoever, as a potential hijacker could simply unblock himself. Without the tools, on the other hand, not much damage could be done. --Conti|✉ 21:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• When I die, please don't desysop me. I want to use my tools after death. –xeno^talk 21:26, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Rather like an Egyptian Pharaoh, Spitfire^Tally-ho! 21:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (smiling :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 21:42, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I personally see desysopping and blocking as a form of embalming - a kind of respect for the dead, having very little to do with actual fear of abuse, but a ritualized fear of abuse.--Tznkai (talk) 21:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Desysop yes, block no. It does no harm to desysop the account, but it might just prevent future abuse. Spitfire^Tally-ho! 21:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Apart from the sad loss, it's a bit meh really innit? Its unlikely that should someone gain access to the account that they will be able to actually do anything worthwhile with it. Otoh stripping the bit is easy and should we be misinformed they can be reinstated just as easily. I don't think it does anyone any favors to believe that we should not be stripping bits of people believed dead, imagine what the list of admins will consist of in 30-40 years. Its a mop, not a medal. I am also somewhat confused regarding what possible problem there could be with blocking the account, not that I see it necessary however. Unomi (talk) 21:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't necessarily see blocking as a punishment or a black mark, and I think that is the divide here. I advocate blocking account of deceased persons because that account is theirs, and no one elses. Any fear of abuse is not for me or us collectively, but for the deceased, a way of ensuring their name remains untainted.--Tznkai (talk) 21:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It's sad that we only ever discuss this in the light of specific deaths - we would be more respectful if we could work out a clear and consistent position without having to sully the rememberance of a fellow contributor with this perennially recurring debate. That said, I think Tznkai has it about right for why we block, and as for desysop, tools should only be held by those who need them, and until the advent of Ouijapedia the departed do not need admin tools. DuncanHill (talk) 00:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

(oh, I am SO gonna burn in hell for snarking in this thread) Once Ouijapedia 1.0 comes out, how will we deal with the BDP question? GJC 05:43, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Tznkai. Also, an additional reason for removing the bit in this situation would be to help keep stats on number of admins accurate. Rd232 ^talk 01:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Should a note be placed on this person's userpage indicating they have passed away and/or are no longer active? It looks like they haven't logged on in 6 years anyway. Burpelson AFB (talk) 02:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

As it says at the top of User talk:Mirwin, the user lost access to the account and continued to edit as Lazyquasar (talk · contribs). Graham87 07:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Why don't we just let the whole situation rest peacefully? Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 02:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The computer and paperwork of a deceased admin will almost certainly be passed to someone, who may pass to someone else, and any recorded account details may become known by others (the computer may be sold to a stranger). Accordingly, there is a reason to be concerned about account disclosure. Johnuniq (talk) 03:23, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes. If any admin goes away, for whatever reason, the account should be de-sysopped and blocked. If someone hacks into it, at worst they'll have a normal editor's account instead of an account that could do a lot more damage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That's too obvious for the clowns here. AGF, even in death.--Malleus Fatuorum 07:30, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

As Tan said earlier, why is there even any debate on the matter? There's no legitimate reason for the account of a departed wikipedia admin to have admin capabilities. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

That's true of any computer of any user with "advanced permissions" being sold. I don't really see your point. You'll never know if the person behind this account today is the person behind this account tomorrow. Such is life. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

When a computer is sold, it usually winds up at a different IP range. Does the login code test for the IP? I'd presume it would be possible to do so. LeadSongDog come howl 19:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

• In response to some above, we have in fact done the discussion on this before. I note that the meta request was denied as no local policy. We have some guidelines here from a discussion here. Consensus was that we do not block the account but we do remove advanced permissions. Pedro :  Chat  07:41, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest getting the Arbitration Committee to pass a motion. Otherwise, I don't see this request ever being fulfilled. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
    • If I die, and someone desysops and/or blocks me, I'd be pretty annoyed. Of course, my opinions wouldn't exactly matter at that point. Prodego ^talk 19:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
      • Last time I checked, |If I die=="true". Perhaps you meant "When"? ;-o LeadSongDog come howl 19:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Request for your comments at Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC

I'd like to remind interested parties here of the ongoing work on the proposed 'reverse Rfa', Community de-adminship. It has been suggested we wind up our efforts in early January, but that is not set in stone. For those who have not been following this, I submit it is worth a look, and comments are welcomed.

There is also ongoing discussion on what happens after a 'final' draft has been completed, at Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/RfC Strategy. Again, your thoughts are welcomed. Happy Holidays to all, Jusdafax 22:00, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• Per my comments here, I still have no idea how to meaningfully contribute to that RfC without fully internalizing the direction, past and scope of the proposal. May I suggest again that you point the discussion link to someplace where questions can be asked and answered rather than a complex draft/RfC which appears to be largely inside baseball. Protonk (talk) 01:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Myspace and Facebook promo links - acceptable?

Are links such as Myspace and Facebook acceptable in articles with very little notability (such as Sarah's Choice)? I have regularly seen them removed from articles that are on far more notable subjects.--SuaveArt (talk) 22:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggest you use the WP:RSN; I would say NO. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 23:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

They're not talking about using it as a source. They're talking about it being in the external link sections. Typically any "official" pages related to a subject are often linked in the external link sections. These days many movies, bands, TV shows, etc create official pages on facebook, myspace and twitter. In terms of a "see more" link they're no different nor no more promotional than linking to an official ".com" address. The correct bit that applies is here Wikipedia:EL#Official_links--Crossmr (talk) 01:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:NCR rename?

I believe that No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man should be renamed "No climbing the Bundestag dressed as Spider-Man" since the Reichstag has not existed for over 60 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJMiller (talk • contribs) 00:13, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:No_climbing_the_Reichstag_dressed_as_Spider-Man#Bundestag. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 00:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I think we need a Wikipedia:No renaming "no climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man" policy. The name comes from the history of the page, let's not change it. And let's definitely not climb any building dressed as any popular comic-book character demanding that it be changed. Guy (Help!) 17:48, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan

This arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision may be viewed at the link above.

• User:Arab Cowboy is prohibited from making changes to any article about a person with respect to their ethnicity or nationality for one year and is placed on a 1 revert per week restriction for one year.
• User:Supreme Deliciousness is prohibited from making changes to any article about a person with respect to their ethnicity or nationality for one year and is placed on a 1 revert per week restriction for one year.
• Asmahan is placed under article probation for six months.
• Any article within the scope of this case, where an extended dispute related to the national or ethnic identity of an individual is occuring may be placed under article probation by an uninvolved administrator for up to six months.

Uninvolved administrators may perform escalating blocks on editors who do not abide by these remedies.

For the Arbitration Committee,

Seddon ^talk|^WikimediaUK 01:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Backlog at WP:UAA

Can some admins please clean up the backlog at WP:UAA? There are entries that have been sitting there for much of the day. Thank you. Warrah (talk) 03:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

That page gets regularly reviewed by several admins (including myself), so there's no need to post here unless there are 30-40 accounts sitting there. No worries if a report sits there for several hours (or even a day). If the account is an issue, it will be handled. Thanks! ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually it has been backlogged a lot lately, and if an account is posted there it should be blocked or moved to the holding pen (or removed altogether) instead of just sitting there being ignored. NJA (t/c) 07:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Backlog at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion

Unfortunately, I can't close most of them due to either (a) being the nom, or (b) voting. I will be happy to take care of all the remaining clean-up issues after closure. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 17:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Only a little bit BEANSy...

In the last few weeks, I've come across several vandals and misguided newbies who are making 10 minor and superfluous edits to random articles (removing red links, adding red links, changing header levels, increasing or decreasing image sizes by a pixel or two) and are then creating an article about their mate's band or their geography teacher's cock or whatever in userspace and moving it to the mainspace.

This is removing a fair proportion of these articles from appearing in Special:NewPages, so that the time taken to delete a nasty attack page increases from a few minutes to, sometimes, days (although the length of time taken to remove these attacks has increased due to the breaching experiment at WP:NEWT anyway).

My point, however, is not NEWT. My point is: with so many people suddenly using this method, clearly we're advertising it somewhere. Where? And, why? ⬅ ❝Redvers in a one-horse open sleigh❞ 17:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The article creation wizard? –xeno^talk 18:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a bot could be created to provide a log of moves from userspace into mainspace. Maybe updating it once an hour or so, and removing entries that are redlinked in the mainspace. –xeno^talk 18:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The method is probably not due to someone using the AW2.0 in good faith, nothing in there actually walks a user through the 10-edits-wait-4-days-vandalize cycle described above. If what he says is going on, there is a good chance that there is something out there advising people how to avoid detection at Wikipedia. I would not be surprised if some of the sites known to coordinate attacks at Wikipedia (the /b/tards at 4chan for example) haven't explained how to do this. --Jayron32 18:21, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

If your looking for a report tool I could whip one up on the toolserver fairly quickly. β^_command 18:23, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Something like Xeno described could be quite useful... LadyofShalott 18:36, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes please, Beta. Let us know where it outputs to? ⬅ ❝Redvers in a one-horse open sleigh❞ 19:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Experienced users and admin help needed

I've been trying to deal with an enforcement request concerning conduct on Mass killings under communist regimes (an article I am unconvinced can exist safely) and I do not believe it is properly within the auspices of arbitration enforcement. I do think the article and the dispute needs a lot of volunteer eyes, so I am asking for the help of those with sufficient clue and fortitude to intervene. Expect some infighting to follow below.--Tznkai (talk)